From sen.gargi at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 06:43:13 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 06:43:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? Message-ID: Hello everyone, I am a self-confessed lurker on this list. Till date I have only read postings and followed a few debates. But the recent spate of mails had a stunning effect - to paraphrase Shuddha ­ and stunned even me out of the zone of silence into speech. And as I spent most of the night in reading the incredible number of recent mails, I may as well stay up and write. And despite the circumstances, I am happy to become visible, albeit virtually. This mail though is addressed to 5 young men called Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul. And my apologies to the rest of the list for length of the mail. Gargi Dear Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul, You know you are probably going about it ­ it being the stopping of Jashn-e-azadi - all wrong. You probably do know that the more you Œtalk¹ about a film/ book/ art/ food anything, the more you spread an interest about it. Any talk of Œbanning¹ send interests zooming sky high. And to point to Œuncensored¹ you hit bulls eye. Really. The best course probably might have been to simply ignore it. Indifference probably kills faster than any kind of engagement. But you have done what you had to and now the damage is done. And the more you try and stop it, the more you will push up the interest button. Its kind of inversely proportionate. Is that really what you want? But I understand your pain. I understand where its coming from. I too come from a so called refugee family. Both my grandfathers lost everything ­ their land, their trees, their homestead, one even lost his entire life¹s savings in 1947. Incidentally but not so coincidentally both came to Calcutta - you see this was before my parents met or married ­ a city quite hostile to the refugees as also to their dialect and culture. My nuclear family moved to Delhi roughly when I was born. I grew up with the knowledge that Œhome¹ was Œsome place else.¹ But where exactly no one could tell. Functionally it was Calcutta. But logically, it should have been either Barishal or Jashore, where we couldn¹t go ­ don¹t get me wrong, visas were given, we just lacked the cash. I grew up in Delhi feeling quite alienated from my classmates who had roots, deep root: they had villages they knew and visited, ancestral homes, common cultures. I had none, or they were somewhere else. And any attempt to find roots was a lost cause because where or what could they go into? Bangladesh? It didn¹t exist when my grandparents exited. East Pakistan? That doesn¹t exist any longer. So my childhood roots could only go up in air. But coming back to the pain, I wonder who can I draw as enemy, who can I blame? Who caused the pain? Because for certain my family, and families, went through pain. Extreme pain. Loss rings deep. Even today wedding invitations carry markers like ABC (name of the father of bride/ groom) of DEF (place in Bangladesh) at present a resident of XYZ (somewhere in India) invite you to the wedding of.... Do you understand? 60 years after our families left we, at least those who do the Œcorrect¹ things like marriage, still claim our lineage to a land which has ceased to be ours 60 years ago. So who¹s the enemy? Who truncated that umbilical cord between land and culture? The problem was that that was too complex. I couldn¹t really think that one through. So I though let me see if locating an identifiable enemy is beyond my capabilities is there at least an errant cousin, a filmmaker who rides on pain to claim fame? You know I gave it some very serious thought indeed and I think Ghatak might just fit the bill. Ritwik i.e. Especially his Komal Gandhar. Which is a less celebrated film than his more celebrated ones. But the storyline, the form and especially his protagonists and their ideology is great for our common endeavour that I am gong to suggest in a minute. But have you seen the film? Do see it if you haven¹t. It uses a theatre group to shamelessly propagate an ideology that has been rubbished even on this list. I suggest we call for a ban on this film. Imagine what mileage we¹ll get. Or do I mean the film will get? Whatever. We can claim that all independent filmmakers are fundamentally fundamentalists and unable to connect to pain. Apart from that you see I also have a vested interest. Komal Gandhar happens to be my personal favourite, probably because personal taste is not dictated by popular consent. And I am often a little puzzled as to how less it is rated compared to Ghatak¹s other films. So see, if such a campaign can be started, the film will for certain become extremely popular. Very popular indeed. Many people who don¹t know about the film will come to know of it. It will get screened in different cities and halls ­ we are after all celebrating THE 60th year ­ and this film does address the P word . Academics might start to write about, even high-brow lists like Sarai-readers list might comment on the film, and for all you know, even Shuddha might write about it. I recall reading a great piece by him on the motif of the bahurupiyas confronting two errant children in an abandoned airfield in the film Subarnarekha. But I can¹t remember or at least haven¹t seen anything by him on Komal Gandhar. Over the last 6 months I watched all of you and learnt that that is sure-fire strategy. I am impressed by your dedication and strategy. Especially your strategy. And your dedication to continually evolve it. So I am suggesting this. Why make a hero out of Kak? He is such a johny-come-lately. Why not strike at the roots of all such films? Komal Gandhar probably is the precursor to, or the grandfather of, films like Jashn-e-azadi. So hit the root. The branches are sure to fall off. Let me know your thoughts. Coming back to the narrative of my family and pain allow me to tell you a little about my father ­ I¹ll leave the mother-motif for another sleepless night. My father, who is now dead, was once young. Probably at your age Aditya he joined the Socialists. You see he didn¹t have the hind-sight of history so he did what his heart and conscious dictated. He was quite close to Lohiya and JP and in his twenties became the president of the Western Railwaymen¹s Union. But he was recalled from Bombay to Delhi by JP who wanted him to work on some new initiative. Anyway, he did as told, also married, and I make an appearance on the scene. In the late Œ60s, when I am 4 or 5 one of the tasks he carried out was to provide a safe meeting place, in his house, for Sheikh Abdullah and Mridula Sarabhai to meet and confabulate. Do you know what they ­ not my father but the other two ­ were talking about? The RIK certainly does, no? Its recorded history after all. On Kashmir after all. Recorded history does not always record the stories foot soldiers. My father, by allowing a person under house arrest, to meet another who was soon going to be put under house arrest, called on himself the ire of the state. Or is it nation? Or nation-state? Whatever. But as a 4 or 5 year old I knew meaning of words like Œintelligence¹ Œshadowed¹ and the dreaded word CID. At least I think that was the dreaded word. My father continues on his chosen path. All as a socialist. No hind-sight you see. And I watched from the side-lines of the side-line. When I was 12 I learn about MISA, learn to live with a Œmissing father¹ who¹s Œunderground,¹ watch countless raids into our homes; for some strange reasons totally beyond my comprehension all those Œraids¹ were carried out by the IT department! But all that was as a child. With no real understanding. Only feelings. It wasn¹t till much later that I learnt that that tall, bald headed man, wearing a crisp, white Kurta-pajama, the one who towered over most men by a foot or so, the one who sat on our verandah talking endlessly to a woman in crisp white salwar kameez, the man also known as the Lion of Kashmir, had led battles against various causes one of which was the choice of accession to the republic of India. Funnily, my classmate - or was he my brother¹s classmate, whatever ­ his grandfather who was once the King of Kashmir had actually opted to go with Pakistan. A Kashmiri Pundit, a maharaja to boot, wants to secede from India while a Muslim, leading a tribal brigade, wants to remain. Now I think I¹ve lost the plot altogether. But coming back to my father, a refugee who makes democratic choice, in a democratic country/ nation/ nation-state/ whatever, to go into politics, albeit oppositional politics, is continuously hounded by the country/ nation/ nation-state/ whatever for you know what? His political beliefs. The story doesn¹t end at Emergency. Then there was the Kudal Commission. JP was already dead. He, alone, battles the government/ country/ nation/ nation-state/ whatever for a simple reason: a Œwrong¹ allegation, a Œmistake.¹ For 6 years. Alone. I write about him because I read many of your mails tonight and he came back. He¹s been dead almost 13 years now, but reading your mails I got another perspective on the man, a mere foot soldier though. He paid the price of choosing the wrong political set up at a time when democratic systems and institutions were even less mature. No hind sight you see. But that apart, in my personal recollection I don¹t remember any litany of pain. He laughed instead. He was an extremely funny and fun loving man. Deeply irreligious he had immense faith. He couldn¹t believe in God so chose to believe in men. Had he not suffered? Of course he had. Had not seen trauma? Of course he had. He was almost a youth at partition. And like every other family, ours too has horrific stories. And he was a witness, not even spared by age. So, I am feeling a little puzzled tonight. Why didn¹t he complain? At least he could have called for a ban. On Komol Gandhar perhaps? Maybe then he might have made it to recorded history as a punctuation mark? Or at the very least he should/ could have spent his life complaining, bitterly about all those fame seekers, trouble makers, the salt rubbers. I wonder why didn¹t he do that? At least he could have hidden his obvious love for life, remained a victim? Was it necessary to be so blatantly in love with life and living? And tonight I begin to Œsee¹ that it was this inexplicable love he had for life that made him choose unpopular causes. Too, too many to even list, forget recount. But I am grateful to all five of you for helping me to Œsee¹ the obvious, for helping me to connect to my father, now dead, in a completely new light. But you know, how sometimes you can miss the very obvious simply because its staring you in the face? So thanks yaar. And there is one more thing. The Kudal Commission showed to me, and hopefully to a few others too, that even the entire might of the mighty state is often unable to make false charges stick. So what¹s the point, yaar? Anyway, you see I read many of your mails tonight and I thought of pain. Impossible to define scientifically. I mean is it at all possible to use some sort of measure to see whose pain is deeper and hurts more? But tonight I thought it might not be a bad idea to try and make a measuring instrument like that. Then we could compare all of us who have experienced pain ­ my father, I albeit from the side lines, all of you ­ whose pain is greater? Or should we leave that ­it - to the crux of the film Hiroshima Mon Amour? I am not sure any longer. Actually to be sure of anything is getting increasingly difficult. I am sure you don¹t know what I mean. If you have read till here, thank you for your patience. I can¹t really ask God to bless you, but I do wish you lots and lots of abundant energy for your cause, for your cause can only help my cause - that of showing and screening all films to everybody. Gargi Sen From jeebesh at sarai.net Sat Sep 1 10:35:25 2007 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 10:05:25 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Exceptional mail. Thanks gargi. Frankly you should make a personal, to your heart film about Komal Ghadhar and remembering your father. Love for life rarely survives in memory. This mail i will always treasure as the best the reader-list has thrown into our midst. warmly jeebesh On 01-Sep-07, at 6:13 AM, Gargi Sen wrote: > Hello everyone, From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 10:35:11 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 22:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Freedom of Expression my foot! In-Reply-To: <254303.42523.qm@web8413.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <623496.24977.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Sadia, I think we are using and understanding the phrase "essential nature of state" differently,so we are ending up talking through each other.In your usage,essential nature of state is how it exists in practice.So if India is a country where dalits are oppressed,which I agree with incidentally, then perhaps in your terms the oppression of the dalits is the essential nature of the state. But my usage is constitutional\legal.I wont say that oppresion of dalits is an "essential nature of Indian State",because the constitution does not enable the oppression,quite the contrary in fact. So for me,the essential nature of Indian state is a "secular democracy".In a secular democracy inequity of income may exist,and other "what ifs" that you have mentioned may exist.That does not make them the essential nature of the state,because the constitution does not specifically enable them. My argument is not on the lines of what is more important or who is more patriotic;because that is just sidestepping from the current topic. regards Rahul --- "S.Fatima" wrote: > Dear Rahul > Of course I am not in favour of somebody's freedom > of > expression which puts the national security at risk. > I > would certainly not like an action which helps in > sinking the boat which I am also riding. But the > point > is, who should decide what is a security risk? A > statement which is a painful truth for someone could > be a security risk for others. > > To extend your analogy a little, if the oarsman of > the > boat decides that a few travelers are his enemy and > tries to push them into the water, there will be a > clash where the victims may try to throw the oarsman > himself into water. Of course the other travelers > who > are not aware of the origin of the clash will > declare > the victimized group as their enemies and so on. > Thus > it becomes a conflict. I know it’s a childish > analogy > but the reality is much more complex. Each one of us > is living with our own versions of history, and that > decides our definition of nationhood and patriotism. > > No Indian (or human) today will say that he/she is > not > victimized by somebody/something or the other. > Everyone's (hi)story is important. It’s just that > the > state has the power to legitimately suppress other's > version of the history if they want to. And that's > where my problem lies with the nationhood and the > constitution. > > I fail to understand what you mean by the "essential > nature of the state" and why is it over and above > everything? What if it hurts me instead of > safeguarding me? What if this “nature of state” > discriminates against a certain group of its > citizens > because of sheer sectarian prejudice or simply > corruption? Ultimately the “nature of state” in its > practical form is nothing but a bunch of civil > servants, MPs, judges, soldiers, cops - do you think > all of them are angels from heaven? (I am not > denying > thier sacrifices in running the country and saving > us > from all the dangers, and so on). But do they follow > the constitution as perfectly as required? And > forget > about national security and defense – have they > provided clean water, sanitization, basic health, > education, roads, housing, employment, and food to > everyone? Is the “nature of state” above all these > essential duties? Why shouldn’t someone become > Naxalite given the current nature of state? > > It doesn't matter how clean and perfect our > constitution is, or what our fathers of the Nation > dreamt about. What matters is how is the state > treating its people? (Of course its reverse is also > important). But I or anyone else who faces injustice > and partiality will have a shaky belief in the state > and nationhood. In any case, most of our middle and > lower-middle class today is so helpless, frustrated, > and tired that they don’t give a damn to > nationalism. > The only people who are happily patriotic are some > nicely employed or filthy rich or the NRIs. Don’t > you > think? > > Fatima > > > > --- Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > Dear Sadia, > > Sorry for the belated reply.I guess I could not > > explain myself clearly.Kshmendra has articulated > it > > better than me.Anyways,I will try once more. > > To take a rough analogy;all of us are traveling in > a > > boat.It does not matter really how we evolved into > > it.The boat should prohibit any activity which may > > sink it,isnt that logical? > > Lets take the matter of Kashmir out of this for a > > sec.Right now,lets just focus on this:Whether it > is > > justified by a nation to ban any kind of freedom > of > > expression on any pretext.You obviously think > there > > should be no checks on the freedom of expression.I > > would say,as I did in my earlier email,that > anything > > which is contradictory to the essential nature of > > the > > state,should be banned.I gave the example of > Iran.I > > will give one other example.Lets suppose there is > a > > monarchy in which there is hereditary > > succession.Suppose someone starts preaching about > > democracy in a monarchy.So yeah they will be > jailed > > etc.Its only after a revolution,civil war etc that > > one > > can change the essential nature of a nation state. > > > Lets come to India now.Its a secular democracy.Now > > the > > founding fathers of the nation wanted it to be > > so.Lets > > consider two imaginary scenarios and you tell me > > where > > freedom of expression will lead to in that > > scenario.. > > 1. BJP-RSS-VHP talk about making India a hindu > > state > > and start giving inflammatory speeches about > > muslims. > > 2. Chief of army staff writes a book on the > corrupt > > politicians and argues how dictatorship is good > for > > India.He starts holding meetings and tries to > build > > a > > consensus that civilians are not fit to rule the > > country and military should take over.He even > starts > > ad campaigns on TV. > > I could give several such examples.The steps to my > > reasoning is.. > > 1.Anything which is contradictory to the essential > > nature of state;the state will not provide a > > constitutional procedure to let that happen. > > 2.The only way to bring about that kind of change > is > > civil war\blood shed. > > 3.If freedom of expression is provided in such a > > scenario,it could lead to violence and in the > > extreme > > case the change of the essential nature of the > > state. > > > > If we still do not agree that the nation is > > justified > > in curbing the freedom of expression in certain > > cases,please let me know what you think. > > > > You have talked about nation and constitution not > > being divine ordained,of course its not;but I did > > not > > get your point.What are you trying to say?Are you > > pointing at the Caliphate and Shariat in place of > > nation and constitution?If you are then again I > > would > > say;the secular democratic nation of India should > > suppress your freedom of expression.A secular > > democracy is what I was born into and this is how > I > > want it to stay.Please note that this is not a > moral > > judgment on your stand,its just that I have chosen > > my > > side. > > You have also talked about"the current version of > > nationalism being full of gas" I totally agree > with > > you.Nationalism to me is first and foremost an > idea > > that gives us certain freedoms,protections and > > basically enables all of us to peacefully > > coexist.Beyond that,I have no use for it.I am not > an > > "India Shining" or "mera bharat mahaan" kind of > > patriot.Its not a judgement on those who are, but > I > > just want you to understand where I am coming > from. > > So I would support full freedom of expression on > > anything that can be achieved without violating > the > > essential nature of the state.Even the constiution > > is > > open for amendment.But the essential nature of the > > state is not. > > If there is anything else I have missed,please let > > me > > know. > > There is the specfic matter about "self > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From mrsg at vsnl.com Sat Sep 1 11:19:10 2007 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:19:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? References: Message-ID: <002501c7ec5b$d3d6b070$0300a8c0@MRAY> Dear Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul I have not entered in this Kashmir debate execpt that I informed that Kashmir is only 20% of all J&K. (Generally I donot enter this e-debates, only because of my fellowship here, I go through this list and sometimes cannot resist to get involved) HOWEVER MY SUGGESTION TO YOU THAT NEVER LISTEN TO A 'SECULAR BENGALI HINDU REFUGEE'. They are the worst of backboneless people on the earth. Bengali hindus are being raped, killed, looted everyday in Bangladesh (previous East Pakistan) and they are coming in India everyday. But nearly all the refugees are not only silent but also go anyway to stop talking about it. While in las 50 years not a single muslim has migrated from West Bengal to EPakistan/Bangladesh, millions of bengali hindus have come to West Bengal and they are coming and coming. Bangladesh's hindu population has come down from 30% in 1951 to 9% in 2001, worst ethnic cleansing in modern history. Not only that. now Bangladeshi Muslims are coming in hordes. West Bengal's demography has changed. Its just matter of time to turn West Bengal into Bangladesh. SO PLEASE NEVER debate with them, its useless. Let them go on with their intellectual acrobatics till some day their houses are looted, their women are raped. If you can do anything yourself, do that only. M. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gargi Sen" To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 6:43 AM Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? > Hello everyone, > I am a self-confessed lurker on this list. Till date I have only read > postings and followed a few debates. But the recent spate of mails had a > stunning effect - to paraphrase Shuddha ­ and stunned even me out of the > zone of silence into speech. And as I spent most of the night in reading > the > incredible number of recent mails, I may as well stay up and write. And > despite the circumstances, I am happy to become visible, albeit virtually. > > This mail though is addressed to 5 young men called Aditya, Rashneek , > Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul. And my apologies to the rest of the list for > length of the mail. > Gargi > > Dear Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul, > You know you are probably going about it ­ it being the stopping of > Jashn-e-azadi - all wrong. You probably do know that the more you Œtalk¹ > about a film/ book/ art/ food anything, the more you spread an interest > about it. Any talk of Œbanning¹ send interests zooming sky high. And to > point to Œuncensored¹ you hit bulls eye. Really. The best course probably > might have been to simply ignore it. Indifference probably kills faster > than > any kind of engagement. But you have done what you had to and now the > damage > is done. And the more you try and stop it, the more you will push up the > interest button. Its kind of inversely proportionate. Is that really what > you want? > > But I understand your pain. I understand where its coming from. I too come > from a so called refugee family. Both my grandfathers lost everything ­ > their land, their trees, their homestead, one even lost his entire life¹s > savings in 1947. Incidentally but not so coincidentally both came to > Calcutta - you see this was before my parents met or married ­ a city > quite > hostile to the refugees as also to their dialect and culture. My nuclear > family moved to Delhi roughly when I was born. I grew up with the > knowledge > that Œhome¹ was Œsome place else.¹ But where exactly no one could tell. > Functionally it was Calcutta. But logically, it should have been either > Barishal or Jashore, where we couldn¹t go ­ don¹t get me wrong, visas were > given, we just lacked the cash. I grew up in Delhi feeling quite alienated > from my classmates who had roots, deep root: they had villages they knew > and > visited, ancestral homes, common cultures. I had none, or they were > somewhere else. And any attempt to find roots was a lost cause because > where > or what could they go into? Bangladesh? It didn¹t exist when my > grandparents > exited. East Pakistan? That doesn¹t exist any longer. So my childhood > roots > could only go up in air. > > But coming back to the pain, I wonder who can I draw as enemy, who can I > blame? Who caused the pain? Because for certain my family, and families, > went through pain. Extreme pain. Loss rings deep. Even today wedding > invitations carry markers like ABC (name of the father of bride/ groom) of > DEF (place in Bangladesh) at present a resident of XYZ (somewhere in > India) > invite you to the wedding of.... Do you understand? 60 years after our > families left we, at least those who do the Œcorrect¹ things like > marriage, > still claim our lineage to a land which has ceased to be ours 60 years > ago. > So who¹s the enemy? Who truncated that umbilical cord between land and > culture? > > The problem was that that was too complex. I couldn¹t really think that > one > through. So I though let me see if locating an identifiable enemy is > beyond > my capabilities is there at least an errant cousin, a filmmaker who rides > on > pain to claim fame? You know I gave it some very serious thought indeed > and > I think Ghatak might just fit the bill. Ritwik i.e. Especially his Komal > Gandhar. Which is a less celebrated film than his more celebrated ones. > But > the storyline, the form and especially his protagonists and their ideology > is great for our common endeavour that I am gong to suggest in a minute. > But > have you seen the film? Do see it if you haven¹t. It uses a theatre group > to > shamelessly propagate an ideology that has been rubbished even on this > list. > > I suggest we call for a ban on this film. Imagine what mileage we¹ll get. > Or > do I mean the film will get? Whatever. We can claim that all independent > filmmakers are fundamentally fundamentalists and unable to connect to > pain. > > Apart from that you see I also have a vested interest. Komal Gandhar > happens > to be my personal favourite, probably because personal taste is not > dictated > by popular consent. And I am often a little puzzled as to how less it is > rated compared to Ghatak¹s other films. So see, if such a campaign can be > started, the film will for certain become extremely popular. Very popular > indeed. Many people who don¹t know about the film will come to know of it. > It will get screened in different cities and halls ­ we are after all > celebrating THE 60th year ­ and this film does address the P word . > Academics might start to write about, even high-brow lists like > Sarai-readers list might comment on the film, and for all you know, even > Shuddha might write about it. I recall reading a great piece by him on the > motif of the bahurupiyas confronting two errant children in an abandoned > airfield in the film Subarnarekha. But I can¹t remember or at least > haven¹t > seen anything by him on Komal Gandhar. > > Over the last 6 months I watched all of you and learnt that that is > sure-fire strategy. I am impressed by your dedication and strategy. > Especially your strategy. And your dedication to continually evolve it. So > I > am suggesting this. Why make a hero out of Kak? He is such a > johny-come-lately. Why not strike at the roots of all such films? Komal > Gandhar probably is the precursor to, or the grandfather of, films like > Jashn-e-azadi. So hit the root. The branches are sure to fall off. > > Let me know your thoughts. > > Coming back to the narrative of my family and pain allow me to tell you a > little about my father ­ I¹ll leave the mother-motif for another sleepless > night. My father, who is now dead, was once young. Probably at your age > Aditya he joined the Socialists. You see he didn¹t have the hind-sight of > history so he did what his heart and conscious dictated. He was quite > close > to Lohiya and JP and in his twenties became the president of the Western > Railwaymen¹s Union. But he was recalled from Bombay to Delhi by JP who > wanted him to work on some new initiative. Anyway, he did as told, also > married, and I make an appearance on the scene. In the late Œ60s, when I > am > 4 or 5 one of the tasks he carried out was to provide a safe meeting > place, > in his house, for Sheikh Abdullah and Mridula Sarabhai to meet and > confabulate. Do you know what they ­ not my father but the other two ­ > were > talking about? The RIK certainly does, no? Its recorded history after all. > On Kashmir after all. > > Recorded history does not always record the stories foot soldiers. My > father, by allowing a person under house arrest, to meet another who was > soon going to be put under house arrest, called on himself the ire of the > state. Or is it nation? Or nation-state? Whatever. But as a 4 or 5 year > old > I knew meaning of words like Œintelligence¹ Œshadowed¹ and the dreaded > word > CID. At least I think that was the dreaded word. My father continues on > his > chosen path. All as a socialist. No hind-sight you see. And I watched from > the side-lines of the side-line. When I was 12 I learn about MISA, learn > to > live with a Œmissing father¹ who¹s Œunderground,¹ watch countless raids > into > our homes; for some strange reasons totally beyond my comprehension all > those Œraids¹ were carried out by the IT department! > > But all that was as a child. With no real understanding. Only feelings. It > wasn¹t till much later that I learnt that that tall, bald headed man, > wearing a crisp, white Kurta-pajama, the one who towered over most men by > a > foot or so, the one who sat on our verandah talking endlessly to a woman > in > crisp white salwar kameez, the man also known as the Lion of Kashmir, had > led battles against various causes one of which was the choice of > accession > to the republic of India. Funnily, my classmate - or was he my brother¹s > classmate, whatever ­ his grandfather who was once the King of Kashmir had > actually opted to go with Pakistan. > A Kashmiri Pundit, a maharaja to boot, wants to secede from India while a > Muslim, leading a tribal brigade, wants to remain. Now I think I¹ve lost > the > plot altogether. > > But coming back to my father, a refugee who makes democratic choice, in a > democratic country/ nation/ nation-state/ whatever, to go into politics, > albeit oppositional politics, is continuously hounded by the country/ > nation/ nation-state/ whatever for you know what? His political beliefs. > The > story doesn¹t end at Emergency. Then there was the Kudal Commission. JP > was > already dead. He, alone, battles the government/ country/ nation/ > nation-state/ whatever for a simple reason: a Œwrong¹ allegation, a > Œmistake.¹ For 6 years. Alone. > > I write about him because I read many of your mails tonight and he came > back. He¹s been dead almost 13 years now, but reading your mails I got > another perspective on the man, a mere foot soldier though. He paid the > price of choosing the wrong political set up at a time when democratic > systems and institutions were even less mature. No hind sight you see. But > that apart, in my personal recollection I don¹t remember any litany of > pain. > He laughed instead. He was an extremely funny and fun loving man. Deeply > irreligious he had immense faith. He couldn¹t believe in God so chose to > believe in men. Had he not suffered? Of course he had. Had not seen > trauma? > Of course he had. He was almost a youth at partition. And like every other > family, ours too has horrific stories. And he was a witness, not even > spared > by age. So, I am feeling a little puzzled tonight. Why didn¹t he complain? > At least he could have called for a ban. On Komol Gandhar perhaps? Maybe > then he might have made it to recorded history as a punctuation mark? Or > at > the very least he should/ could have spent his life complaining, bitterly > about all those fame seekers, trouble makers, the salt rubbers. > > I wonder why didn¹t he do that? At least he could have hidden his obvious > love for life, remained a victim? Was it necessary to be so blatantly in > love with life and living? And tonight I begin to Œsee¹ that it was this > inexplicable love he had for life that made him choose unpopular causes. > Too, too many to even list, forget recount. But I am grateful to all five > of > you for helping me to Œsee¹ the obvious, for helping me to connect to my > father, now dead, in a completely new light. But you know, how sometimes > you > can miss the very obvious simply because its staring you in the face? So > thanks yaar. > > And there is one more thing. The Kudal Commission showed to me, and > hopefully to a few others too, that even the entire might of the mighty > state is often unable to make false charges stick. So what¹s the point, > yaar? > > Anyway, you see I read many of your mails tonight and I thought of pain. > Impossible to define scientifically. I mean is it at all possible to use > some sort of measure to see whose pain is deeper and hurts more? But > tonight > I thought it might not be a bad idea to try and make a measuring > instrument > like that. Then we could compare all of us who have experienced pain ­ my > father, I albeit from the side lines, all of you ­ whose pain is greater? > Or > should we leave that ­it - to the crux of the film Hiroshima Mon Amour? > > I am not sure any longer. Actually to be sure of anything is getting > increasingly difficult. I am sure you don¹t know what I mean. > > If you have read till here, thank you for your patience. > > I can¹t really ask God to bless you, but I do wish you lots and lots of > abundant energy for your cause, for your cause can only help my cause - > that > of showing and screening all films to everybody. > > Gargi Sen > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 10:20:55 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 10:20:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Behind The Deal Message-ID: <6b79f1a70708312150j349e0024ga7023df19781f6c0@mail.gmail.com> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20070827&fname=sazawal&sid=1 *An account of the journey in the murky world of Track-II diplomacy that went into the clinching of the US-India Nuclear Deal on July 20, 2007 in Washington -- two years and two days after the initial breakthrough in the same city.* [image: ...] *Vijay Sazawal* On January 4, 2006, I was holding a routine meeting with the political section of the U.S. Embassy in Chanakyapuri, New Delhi, to discuss local and regional dimensions of the Kashmir situation, when a young man (who I later found out to be from the political military section) came up to me to say, "DCM wants to see you immediately." I did not appreciate the interruption, but then one is not invited by the Deputy Chief of the Mission (a sort of deputy Ambassador) without a good reason. So I got up and followed the young man to meet with his boss. The DCM came to the point quickly, "Vijay I understand you are meeting with a member of the AEC. We are in tough negotiations with India on the Separation Plan, and I want you to convey our concerns to him in an unofficial way." It so happened that the Indian gentleman that I was planning to meet was a member of India's nuclear security advisory team and I was meeting with him specifically to discuss the uncertain fate of a few thousand Kashmiri Pandits (KPs) still living in the valley. Indeed, my motivation was driven by the desire to know how the proposed India-Pakistan peace deal on Kashmir would impact remaining Pandits who lived under trying conditions on Ground Zero. Much like in the US, the Indian national security and nuclear establishments also share a common fraternity and it is not unusual for experts to be involved in matters affecting both domains. Thus began my journey in the murky world of Track-II diplomacy, brought about by rapidly improving bilateral relationship between the US and India. To put the events in the correct perspective, it should be recalled that President Clinton and Prime Minister Vajpayee set the new tone of the bilateral relationship that was further nurtured by successor governments in both countries, leading the way to a momentous meeting in the White House on July 18, 2005. On that day in the summer of 2005, President Bush and the visiting Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had issued a declaration after a Summit meeting in which, among other actions, they had agreed to initiate an "Energy Dialogue" between the two countries. As part of that dialogue, President Bush had pledged to support the Indian civil nuclear development by seeking an exemption for India from the US Congress and global entities that prohibited nuclear trade with India. India had been isolated internationally in regards to the nuclear commerce since its Pokharan tests, and while its success with its weapons program was a source of great pride within India, the progress on power generation side was less than exemplary. The Prime Minister, to his credit, did not wish to sweep such anomalies under the rug--as an economist he knew that a robust civilian nuclear program is essential to India's growth as a global economic powerhouse. The US, for its part, wanted to build a strategic partnership with India, and those who know how the American security establishment works will tell you that a meaningful strategic relationship is impossible as long as India is on the "Entities List" identifying countries deemed hostile under the US law for specific improprieties (in case of India for not signing the NPT). US Presidents can grant case-by-case waivers in some exceptional cases to circumvent the US law, but changing the law for good was the only way to secure a strong and stable relationship between the two countries. Largely unwritten and ignored (some would say self-censored) in the Indian press is the slow progress made in nuclear power production in India In spite of having unlimited resources from the central government for the last 60 years, unheard of decision authority--Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) reports directly to the PM--and the best intellect that AEC can muster, nuclear power only contributes a meagre 3% to the national electricity grid in India. Even wind energy, that no one in India even talks about, generates nearly double the electricity in India when compared to the high visibility nuclear power. Lack of adequate uranium, poor quality of uranium, and technical challenges of the thorium fuel cycle have contributed to India's slow progress in the civil nuclear power development. I am tempted here to recall a statement made by Admiral Rickover, the father of US nuclear submarine fleet, who once said, "The best and safest reactors are the one designed on paper. Show me the performance of that reactor after construction and then I will tell you if it is the best or safe." Lots of Indian nuclear power plans for the future are still on paper or in a demonstration phase. That does not mean such projects can not be successful, but to a prudent executive running the country or its nuclear establishment, it simply means that one better have a Plan B on stand by. Following the July 18, 2005 summit between the US and India where the two countries pledged to shift the paradigm by establishing civil nuclear cooperation, I had a personal "outing" of a sorts as well. Being part of the US nuclear establishment for over three decades (working on advanced reactors, breeder reactors, space based reactors, reprocessing, enrichment and a few other programs deemed "black", i.e. classified), I was trained to mention my nuclear affiliation only on a need-to-know basis. In other words, when meeting with the US Administration, Congressmen, US Embassy staff in India or Indian officials, including those in the Indian Embassy in Washington, whenever I met to discuss the Kashmir problem or the plight of Kashmiri Pandits, I never discussed my professional expertise. Whenever I would be asked, I would merely say that I work for a global energy company. But after July 18, that veil of anonymity was lifted for good. On August 16, 2005, the US Department of Energy (DOE) brought together a small group of interagency officials from the Commerce Department, the State Department and the National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA), along with a small number of companies already doing business in India, to discuss commercial aspects of any follow-up to the July 18 summit. My company, being the sole American supplier of nuclear enrichment, was also invited as a technical observer. I represented my company, and the reason my company selected me was because of my experience and knowledge of all aspects of the nuclear fuel cycle, including policy issues affecting nuclear cooperation between the US and India. (In fact, I had previously worked on such commercial cooperation agreements in Eastern Europe--Czech Republic, Bulgaria and Ukraine--after the fall of the Soviet Union.) The meeting at DOE ended with some firm commitments on advocacy for the US-India cooperation (certain non-proliferation and anti-India lobbies in the US Congress were already up in the arms), and I became a regular participant in similar meetings at the Commerce Department. After receiving a briefing at the American Embassy on January 4, 2006, I kept my appointment with the AEC official and argued in favor the US position as it coincided with my own belief that India had to do more on the Separation Plan than what they had come up with initially. I later found out the initial Indian proposal on the Separation Plan was a slight modification of the previous position that Mr. Brajesh Mishra (the NSA in the Vajapayee government) had presented to the US. While talks on nuclear cooperation never took off during the Vajapayee government, it maintained a carefully crafted public relations image that made Indian public feel that a special relationship on a strategic alliance was in the making when in fact every knowledgeable person knew that such a relationship would be impossible without a nuclear cooperation agreement. Anyway, the gentleman listened to my arguments and promised to carry the message back to his colleagues. On the same day, an official US-India nuclear workshop took place in Mumbai, with DOE and DAE technical experts following up on the US-India Energy Dialogue, which was led by David Garman (Under Secretary of DOE) and Shyam Saran (Foreign Secretary). At the American Embassy, another issue came up for discussion. In selling the nuclear cooperation agreement to the US Congress, our political counselors wanted to know how many jobs would be created in the US by this deal since that sort of information becomes a selling point with the Congress. I did not recall seeing such an analysis, but I promised them follow-up after my return to the US. On January 27, 2006, Under Secretary David Garman briefed the US India Business Council (USIBC), consisting of US companies interested or already investing in India, about the Mumbai meeting and I raised the issue of job creation in the US under the US-India nuclear deal. The question took him by surprise and he consulted with his aides who told him no such assessment had been done, and he in turn challenged the US industry to make such an assessment since it had the knowledge of the US market. Before the meeting was over, I somehow got stuck with the responsibility and I was asked to prepare a report within a week. On January 30, 2006 I turned over my draft ("for review") to a small group of reviewers at DOE, State Department, Commerce Department and the USIBC. My document was brief (3 pages) and I outlined how the Indian 3-stage nuclear program was insular from the global nuclear fuel cycle and Indian plans to purchase a total of eight (8) 1,000 MWe foreign reactors by 2020 was dictated by bridging the gap between current and planned indigenous nuclear power production, and the 2020 Plan. I also concluded that India was already discussing sweetheart deals with the Russians and the French, and US vendors could hope to receive at the best, in the near-term, offers for up to two (2) reactors (assuming all institutional approvals, including the exemption from the Nuclear Suppliers Group, were in place). Needless to say, the report caused great angst among the policy makers but none could challenge my analysis. So the effort was redirected at convincing India to buy more reactors from the US since it was the US--not the French or Russians--that were helping them out of their nuclear isolation. The American Embassy did an excellent job of educating visiting American legislators about the issue and the Prime Minister solved the problem in India's own unique way, the 20 GWe 2020 Plan was replaced by the 40 GWe 2030 Plan. The present plans were left intact and simply augmented by additional purchases. A declaration was made that India's booming economy will require more than 8 foreign reactors in the next two decades and some of these reactors will be supplied by America. I still personally believe the first reactor purchases by India after the NSG lifts its embargo will be French and Russian reactors, but only time will tell. On March 2, 2006, President Bush during his historic visit to India signed a joint statement with the Indian Prime Minister advancing the goal of civil nuclear cooperation between the two countries by identifying specific actions that each country will take. The President, during the press conference, specifically spoke about advantages of the "closed fuel cycle" involving reprocessing that India was pursuing. On March 7, 2006, a member of the US negotiating team called me and sought the paper that I had written in January 2006 on job creation. I thought nothing of it until I saw Dr. Condoleezza Rice's Op-Ed piece in the *Washington Post* on March 13 titled, "Our Opportunity With India.". When I saw my conclusions directly reproduced in the article, I checked and confirmed that my paper was the source for that information. The Prime Minister, to allay fears of anti-American communist party and the main Opposition, reiterated in the Parliament on August 17, 2006 that India will seek full civil nuclear cooperation with the US, including reprocessing rights. Discussions on the bilateral nuclear cooperation agreement (also called the "123 Agreement") between India and the US were already underway. A day earlier, on August 16, 2006, Frank Lavin, the Under Secretary for International Trade in the US Department of Commerce called a meeting with various representatives of the US nuclear industry to discuss steps that industry could take to strengthen the agreement that the President had signed with the Prime Minister in March. We all agreed that a Mission to India, which was already being planned under his leadership, should be broadened to include nuclear cooperation. In our case, however, since no nuclear commerce was authorized, the US nuclear industry would meet with Indian policy makers and the nuclear establishment, and would hold exploratory contact with Indian industry interested in the nuclear trade, though India by law does not permit the private sector to own or operate nuclear reactors. Besides the restriction on the private sector, another major impediment in the nuclear commerce is the absence of a law to cover nuclear liability in case of severe accidents. In our discussions with the Department of Energy (DAE) and the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) we were told that the Indian Atomic Energy Act is in the process of being revised to accommodate such changes. The US delegation visited India from November 28 through December 6, 2006. It was a well publicized visit that attracted significant media attention in India especially since both the House and the Senate had voted overwhelmingly in support of granting India an exemption from the US laws that blacklisted the country for not signing the NPT. Following our visit, the two bills were reconciled and the US-India civil nuclear cooperation act was voted by the House of Representatives on December 8, 2006 by a margin of 330 to 59 and by the Senate through a voice vote on December 9, 2006. The President signed the bill into law on December 18, 2006. While these positive actions were underway, it was become increasing clear that US and Indian technical negotiators had hit a road block on way to finalizing the 123 Agreement. Officials from both sides expressed frustration with the other; each blaming the other for intransigence. We got a sense of this frustration during our next visit to India in the first week of March 2007 for a meeting of the executive group on nuclear industry cooperation. Indian officials were adamant (technically and politically) about why reprocessing rights were essential to the success of the Indian civil nuclear program. In our March 8th meeting with Dr. Kakodkar, Chairman of the AEC, he made a point of telling us that India was willing to put the reprocessing facility, that would handle foreign origin fuel, under IAEA safeguards.But when that message was conveyed to a White House specialist on nuclear matters, the response was that our (U.S.) team was not authorized to talk about reprocessing rights with India and we had received no formal proposal from India. In response to the inquiry, "Why don't you ask for such a proposal?" her response was, "Our negotiating team does not have the authority to seek such a proposal." In other words, the outlook for a closure looked very bleak. Following the US industry team's return from India, I was asked by the USIBC to assess how the main irritants between the two sides would impact the US industry in pursuing nuclear commerce if somehow the deal was finalized. In my summary report I listed three major items (there were many lower tier issues as well). These were: fuel supply assurances, reprocessing rights and future nuclear testing. I also concluded that among the three, only reprocessing rights put American companies at a commercial disadvantage over our competitors from France and Russia, and hence it should be the one that the US industry must strongly recommend for consideration in order to provide a "level playing field". Subsequently, the USIBC team met with Under Secretary Nicholas Burns on April 17 (ahead of his negotiating trip to India) and while he confirmed the three major issues being the same as stated in my report, he was not encouraging vis-à-vis the industry position on reprocessing rights. He asked us for new ideas that would help the US industry compete successfully. It is my personal assessment that the decision to give programmatic consent on reprocessing to India was prompted by the position put forth jointly by German, French and Russian leaders to President Bush during the G-8 Summit in Heilingendamm, Germany, held on June 6-8, 2007. The Indian Prime Minister, accompanied by the National Security Advisor, met with the President and his national security advisor (Steve Hadley) on the sidelines and presented a concept paper on the IAEA safeguarded reprocessing facility. India already has three modest size reprocessing facilities and is planning to build two more. One of those facilities will be now part of the civilian nuclear sector. It did not take a long time for the negotiations on the 123 Agreement to be completed thereafter. The Indian team consisting of Mr. M. K. Narayanan, Mr. Shiv Shanker Menon, Dr. Anil Kakodkar, Dr. Venkatesh Verma, and Dr. Ravi Grover, joined by their colleagues in the Indian Embassy in Washington met with the US negotiating team that included a brief intervention by Vice President Cheney and long hours with a whole bunch of State Department lawyers during four days of negotiations in July 2007. The deal was concluded on July 20, 2007, two years and two days after the initial breakthrough in the same city. On July 23, I had an opportunity to be briefed separately by American and Indian representatives on the two negotiating teams, and both appeared satisfied that it was a "good agreement and a fair and just deal" between the two governments. Undersecretary Burns briefed the US industry team on July 30. He was visibly happy and satisfied. Everyone in the room recognized his pivotal role in making this deal a success. He in turn lauded the role of the USIBC in pushing the issue of reprocessing rights. On his way out, he stopped by and shook my hands. ------------------------------ *Dr. Sazawal is a nuclear policy specialist by profession, having worked for over three decades in the U.S. nuclear industry. He is also the International Coordinator of the Indo-American Kashmir Forum.* From info at kevinkaul.com Sat Sep 1 03:18:25 2007 From: info at kevinkaul.com (FOSAAC (KEVIN KAUL)) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KARL ROVE'S VIEWS OF THE WHITE HOUSE ON HIS LAST DAY Message-ID: <1101797879381.1101245878128.30901.2.471745A1@scheduler> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1 September 2007 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Issue: 1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Welcome to Friends of the South Asian American Communities Dear ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: White House Strategic Initiatives [mailto:OfficeOfStrategicInitiatives at whitehouse.gov] To: info at kevinkaul.com [mailto:info at kevinkaul.com] Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 12:50 PM Subject: "The Long View" by Karl Rove The Long View Advisory thoughts on the 43rd president. By Karl Rove National Review Online The Washington Post scorned President Truman as a "spoilsman" who "underestimated the people's intelligence." New York Times columnist James Reston wrote off President Eisenhower as "a tired man in a period of turbulence." At the end of President Reagan's second term, the New York Times dismissed him as "simplistic" and a "lazy and inattentive man." These harsh judgments, made in the moment, have not weathered well over time. Fortunately, while contemporary observers have a habit of getting presidents wrong, history tends to be more accurate. So how might history view the 43rd president? I can hardly be considered an objective observer, but in this highly polarized period, who is? However, I believe history will provide a more clear-eyed verdict on this president's leadership than the anger of current critics would suggest. President Bush will be viewed as a far-sighted leader who confronted the key test of the 21st century. He will be judged as a man of moral clarity who put America on wartime footing in the dangerous struggle against radical Islamic terrorism. Following the horrors of 9/11, this president changed American foreign policy by declaring terror sponsors responsible for the deeds of those they shelter, train, and fund. America, he said, will not wait until dangers fully materialize with attacks on our homeland before confronting those threats. The president gave the nation new tools to defeat terrorism abroad and protect our citizens at home with the Patriot Act, foreign surveillance that works in the wireless age, a transformed intelligence community, and the Department of Homeland Security. And this president saw the wisdom of removing terrorism's cause by advocating the spread of democracy, especially in the Muslim world, where authoritarianism and repression have provided a potent growth medium for despair and anger aimed at the West. He recognized that democracy there makes us safer here. President Bush will be seen as a compassionate leader who used America's power for good. While the world dithered, America confronted HIV/AIDS in Africa with the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, which has supported treatment for more than 1.1 million people worldwide, over one million of them in Africa. While most of the globe ignored Sudan and Darfur or refused to act, this president labeled the violence there genocide - and pressed world leaders to take action. A wide range of human-rights issues - from the repression in North Korea, Myanmar, and elsewhere to religious freedom to trafficking in persons - are kept on the international agenda in good part because of this president's demands for action. And President Bush met challenges with new institutions and methods. For example, the Proliferation Security Initiative confronts the transfer of dangerous material and information. And he has reformed America's foreign aid to focus on results, accountability, transparency, and anti-corruption and pro-democracy requirements. President Bush promotes economic growth and understands free markets provide the best path to a more hopeful tomorrow. The president inherited an economy entering recession. It was further weakened by terrorist attacks, corporate scandals, natural disasters, and out-of-control spending with discretionary domestic spending increasing 16 percent in the last fiscal year of his predecessor. President Bush took decisive action, cutting taxes and ratcheting down this spending. The results? The net creation of 8.3 million new jobs since August 2003; higher after-tax income and greater incentives for firms to invest and expand; three years where America's economic growth led the rest of the G7 economies; and a budget on path to surplus by 2012 - despite the increased spending invested in securing America's safety by standing up the new Department of Homeland Security and fighting the Global War on Terror. In the four years since taxes were last cut in 2003, the U.S. economy has grown 13 percent in real dollars. The additional growth is larger than the entire size of the Canadian economy. This president also understands our standard of living depends on selling to the globe. The 14 nations with which we have implemented free agreements represent 7.5 percent of the world's GDP, but 43 percent of our exports. The growing number of free-trade agreements concluded and signed under this president helps explain why American exports have risen 27 percent between 2004 and 2006, creating jobs and prosperity here at home. History will see President Bush as a reformer who focused on modernizing important institutions. He is concerned with fundamental change that will - among other goals - strengthen the ways our children are educated and health care is provided. In education, "No Child Left Behind" introduced accountability into our public-education system by ensuring every child's progress is measured. Parents now know whether or not their child is learning - in their own schools, and compared to other schools. This new focus on results helped lead to more improvement in reading scores in five years than in the previous 28 combined. This reform shows that measuring leads to results. Medicare was modernized with a prescription-drug benefit, now used by 39 million seniors. Giving seniors the drugs they need helped them avoid expensive operations and long hospital stays. The result is better health care for seniors at a lower cost to them and at a lower cost than expected to taxpayers. The president approached other tasks - such as legal reform, higher-education assistance, transportation, and conservation and forest policy - with the same reformist spirit. And he did so on issues which are controversial within his own party, such as comprehensive immigration reform, which he has championed since he first started running for governor of Texas in 1993. He will be seen as an innovative conservative thinker with a positive, optimistic agenda for action. For example, his proposals to reform health care are drawn from his understanding of the values of competition and markets. A standard tax deduction for health care - similar to the deduction homeowners get for mortgage interest - would level the playing field between those who get their health insurance from employers and those who pay for it out of their own pockets and expand the number of families with coverage. People should be able to save tax-free for out-of-pocket health costs. The Health Savings Accounts the president signed into law are the first step toward this. HSAs will help move health care toward a consumer-driven model and away from a single-payer system. More than 4.5 million American families are benefiting from HSAs today. More competition would be created by allowing insurance to be sold across state lines or small businesses to pool risk and would lower costs and increase access. The president has a similar focus on bold changes when it comes to opportunity and poverty. He emphasizes policies, such as welfare reform, that promote ownership and encourage personal responsibility rather than dependence on government. His faith- and community-based initiative is encouraging social entrepreneurship to confront poverty and suffering. Billions of federal dollars can now be accessed by such groups eager to serve a neighbor in need. Already, 34 Democrat and Republican governors and more than 100 mayors of all stripes have created faith- and community-based offices to build on the federal initiative. On energy, the environment, and climate change, he is developing a new paradigm. Emphasizing technology, increased energy-efficiency partnerships, and resource diversification, his policies are improving energy security and slowing the growth of greenhouse gases without economy-breaking mandates and regulation. The president who won criticism by rejecting the failed approach of Kyoto has implemented policies that enabled the United States to grow its economy by 3.1 percent and reduce the absolute amount of CO2 emissions (by 1.3 percent). In these and other areas, history will see President Bush drove policy in new directions, based on conservative principles. He will be recognized as a strong advocate of traditional values. He advanced a culture of life where every child is protected and welcomed. He supported traditional marriage when it came under attack from the courts. He sought to strengthen families and encourage personal responsibility. And he understood the necessity of appointing judges who know the proper and limited role of courts and will provide impartial justice and faithful application of the Constitution. President Bush had the political courage to confront the biggest economic challenge America faces. The looming fiscal crises in Medicare and Social Security will result in either the impoverishment of the American people through higher taxes and lower growth or through the inability of government to deliver on its promises. This president has worked to restrain the spending growth of entitlements, and to modernize Social Security and Medicare by injecting market forces and competition into their operation. He proposed Social Security reform that would solve the system's long-term financial shortfall while giving younger workers the choice to put some of their own money into conservative stock-market investments. He has made it impossible for future presidents and future Congresses to ignore this challenge. The president's proposal will be the starting point for reform when it happens. When it does, Americans will be grateful President Bush made entitlement reform an issue and will be aware that valuable time was lost because of the obstructionism of his critics. The outcome in Iraq and Afghanistan will color how history views the president. History's concern is with final outcomes, not the missteps or advances of the moment. History will render a favorable verdict if the outcome in the Middle East is similar to what America saw after World War II. America's persistence in Europe and Asia after that war helped Germany and Japan become democracies and allies in the struggle against Communism. If something similar happens in Iraq and Afghanistan, it will change the region and the world. For the first time, millions of citizens across the Middle East will see a working model of freedom in their region - and it will give them hope for a better future for their children by making America safer for them. If the outcome there is like what happened in Vietnam after America abandoned our allies and the region descended into chaos, violence, and danger, history's judgment will be harsh. History will see President Bush as right, and the opponents of his policy as mistaken - as George McGovern was in his time. Beyond his policies and actions, history will take the measure of the man. I have known George W. Bush for nearly 34 years and have had the privilege of watching from nearby as history has placed its demands on him and our country. I know his humility and decency, his intelligence and thoughtfulness, his respect for every person he comes in contact with, his unwavering commitment to principle-based decision-making, and the quiet and compassionate hearts of the man and his graceful wife, Laura. I have come to understand true leadership leans into the wind. It tackles big challenges with uncertain outcomes rather than taking on simple, sure tasks. It does what is right, regardless of what the latest poll or focus group says. History demands much of America and its leaders and I am confident it will judge the 43rd president as a man more than worthy of the great office the American people twice entrusted to him. - Karl Rove is the president's longtime adviser. August 31 is his last day working in the White House. --- You are currently subscribed to A List as: info at kevinkaul.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to: leave-whitehouse-osi-alist-1602439Q at list.whitehouse.gov ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kevin Kaul Friends of the South Asian American Communities 562-572-8751 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Forward email http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?m=1101245878128&ea=reader-list at sarai.net&a=1101797879381 This email was sent to reader-list at sarai.net, by info at kevinkaul.com Update Profile/Email Address http://visitor.constantcontact.com/d.jsp?p=oo&m=1101245878128&se=30901&t=1101797879381&lang=en&reason=F Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe(TM) http://visitor.constantcontact.com/d.jsp?p=un&m=1101245878128&se=30901&t=1101797879381&lang=en&reason=F Privacy Policy: http://ui.constantcontact.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Email Marketing by Constant Contact(R) www.constantcontact.com Friends of the South Asian American Communities | FOSAAC | 11432 South St | #308 | Cerritos | CA | 90703 From vikash.sen at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 13:55:57 2007 From: vikash.sen at gmail.com (Bikash Ballabh Singh) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 13:55:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] All the concern citizens' are invited in this campaign Message-ID: <25c340bd0709010125y1e5582c4u733e1565d3837409@mail.gmail.com> Today as India spreads its wings to set foot on the new global economic center stage and prepares to join the club of developed nations, the historical references have changed. It has transformed from the land of snake charmers to a country with high intellect, professional prowess and is an emerging superpower. At this critical juncture in our history, it is apt that we undertake a reality check of the ground situation in our country. Here are some of the issues, which demand our attention India is considered an emerging superpower, but corruption levels in India are one of the highest in the world While the IIT's and IIM's have captured the world's imagination, a large proportion of Indians do not even know how to read and write Many parts of the country still lack basic amenities like safe drinking water, electricity, sanitation facilities etc. Law and order is a problem across vast swathes of the country Side by side with glitzy malls exist slums where lakhs of Indians lead a hand-to-mouth existence. While our GDP is rising, farmers are still committing suicide Infrastructure in the major cities is yet to catch up with the huge rise in populations. While women are scaling new heights, cases of dowry, acid attacks, female infanticide, rape are an everyday occurrence. and many more… It's time we considered where we are and where we should be, both as a society and as a nation. In doing so, the foremost need is to identify the fundamental issues and problems that we face without any visible solution or an action- plan to address them. Instead of blaming the system, the population, the politicians, the Constitution and other factors that restrict our progress shouldn't we, the citizens, dream big for our country and work towards making this dream come true? It's time that citizens of India came forward to identify the challenges ahead, line up solutions to tackle them and then charge forward towards making that very critical difference by creating the blueprint for the next 60 years of India's growth. Towards this goal, Team merinews has taken up the challenge to create the "Citizens' Manifesto - a people defined roadmap of India till 2067." We call upon every Indian to come forward and join this initiative. Your fire of patriotism and the passion to realise a dream for yourself, your society and in turn your country is what is needed to make this happen. You can submit your suggestions, thoughts, views, ideas, issues and their solutions. *Let's come together to give shape to our future.* *Details of campaign *http://www.merinews.com/CampaignPage.jsp?cmpId=1 With best regards, Vipul Kant Upadhyay CEO & Editor in Chief merinews vipul at merinews.com From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 15:00:59 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 02:30:59 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz Message-ID: <5af37bb0709010230k4568a66do582ae68a35e9c21a@mail.gmail.com> I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that both sides (or as many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and Muhammad Iqbal - Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri quoting Meray Dil Meray Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an unimportant note that they both received a similar religious education while growing up in Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that sounds. I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum Dekhenge. it becoming an anthem during the zia years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 15:29:06 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 02:59:06 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Two Iqbals & One Faiz In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0709010230k4568a66do582ae68a35e9c21a@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0709010230k4568a66do582ae68a35e9c21a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709010259x580a5c06g2ace9cd7358b64a7@mail.gmail.com> http://pakistaniat.com/2006/06/24/translation-hum-daikhain-gay/ From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Sat Sep 1 16:55:55 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 12:25:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] Freedom of Expression my foot! In-Reply-To: <623496.24977.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <90335.27906.qm@web8406.mail.in.yahoo.com> No Rahul, the constitution and judiciary is certainly not against any citizen - I am not saying that the Dalit oppression exists because of the constitution. I am stressing on the practical aspect of judiciary/ state since that's what counts. Nobody can endanger the essential nature of state if it is only a theoretical entity. Secular democracy means nothing as long as corruption and prejudice exists. We cannot ignore the practical examples. --- Rahul Asthana wrote: > Dear Sadia, > I think we are using and understanding the phrase > "essential nature of state" differently,so we are > ending up talking through each other.In your > usage,essential nature of state is how it exists in > practice.So if India is a country where dalits are > oppressed,which I agree with incidentally, then > perhaps in your terms the oppression of the dalits > is > the essential nature of the state. > But my usage is constitutional\legal.I wont say that > oppresion of dalits is an "essential nature of > Indian > State",because the constitution does not enable the > oppression,quite the contrary in fact. > So for me,the essential nature of Indian state is a > "secular democracy".In a secular democracy inequity > of > income may exist,and other "what ifs" that you have > mentioned may exist.That does not make them the > essential nature of the state,because the > constitution > does not specifically enable them. > My argument is not on the lines of what is more > important or who is more patriotic;because that is > just sidestepping from the current topic. > > regards > Rahul > > --- "S.Fatima" wrote: > > > Dear Rahul > > Of course I am not in favour of somebody's freedom > > of > > expression which puts the national security at > risk. > > I > > would certainly not like an action which helps in > > sinking the boat which I am also riding. But the > > point > > is, who should decide what is a security risk? A > > statement which is a painful truth for someone > could > > be a security risk for others. > > > > To extend your analogy a little, if the oarsman of > > the > > boat decides that a few travelers are his enemy > and > > tries to push them into the water, there will be a > > clash where the victims may try to throw the > oarsman > > himself into water. Of course the other travelers > > who > > are not aware of the origin of the clash will > > declare > > the victimized group as their enemies and so on. > > Thus > > it becomes a conflict. I know it’s a childish > > analogy > > but the reality is much more complex. Each one of > us > > is living with our own versions of history, and > that > > decides our definition of nationhood and > patriotism. > > > > No Indian (or human) today will say that he/she is > > not > > victimized by somebody/something or the other. > > Everyone's (hi)story is important. It’s just that > > the > > state has the power to legitimately suppress > other's > > version of the history if they want to. And that's > > where my problem lies with the nationhood and the > > constitution. > > > > I fail to understand what you mean by the > "essential > > nature of the state" and why is it over and above > > everything? What if it hurts me instead of > > safeguarding me? What if this “nature of state” > > discriminates against a certain group of its > > citizens > > because of sheer sectarian prejudice or simply > > corruption? Ultimately the “nature of state” in > its > > practical form is nothing but a bunch of civil > > servants, MPs, judges, soldiers, cops - do you > think > > all of them are angels from heaven? (I am not > > denying > > thier sacrifices in running the country and saving > > us > > from all the dangers, and so on). But do they > follow > > the constitution as perfectly as required? And > > forget > > about national security and defense – have they > > provided clean water, sanitization, basic health, > > education, roads, housing, employment, and food to > > everyone? Is the “nature of state” above all these > > essential duties? Why shouldn’t someone become > > Naxalite given the current nature of state? > > > > It doesn't matter how clean and perfect our > > constitution is, or what our fathers of the Nation > > dreamt about. What matters is how is the state > > treating its people? (Of course its reverse is > also > > important). But I or anyone else who faces > injustice > > and partiality will have a shaky belief in the > state > > and nationhood. In any case, most of our middle > and > > lower-middle class today is so helpless, > frustrated, > > and tired that they don’t give a damn to > > nationalism. > > The only people who are happily patriotic are some > > nicely employed or filthy rich or the NRIs. Don’t > > you > > think? > > > > Fatima > > > > > > > > --- Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > > > Dear Sadia, > > > Sorry for the belated reply.I guess I could not > > > explain myself clearly.Kshmendra has articulated > > it > > > better than me.Anyways,I will try once more. > > > To take a rough analogy;all of us are traveling > in > > a > > > boat.It does not matter really how we evolved > into > > > it.The boat should prohibit any activity which > may > > > sink it,isnt that logical? > > > Lets take the matter of Kashmir out of this for > a > > > sec.Right now,lets just focus on this:Whether it > > is > > > justified by a nation to ban any kind of freedom > > of > > > expression on any pretext.You obviously think > > there > > > should be no checks on the freedom of > expression.I > > > would say,as I did in my earlier email,that > > anything > > > which is contradictory to the essential nature > of > > > the > > > state,should be banned.I gave the example of > > Iran.I > > > will give one other example.Lets suppose there > is > > a > > > monarchy in which there is hereditary > > > succession.Suppose someone starts preaching > about > > > democracy in a monarchy.So yeah they will be > > jailed > > > etc.Its only after a revolution,civil war etc > that > > > one > > > can change the essential nature of a nation > state. > > > > > Lets come to India now.Its a secular > democracy.Now > > > the > > > founding fathers of the nation wanted it to be > > > so.Lets > > > consider two imaginary scenarios and you tell me > > > where > > > freedom of expression will lead to in that > > > scenario.. > > > 1. BJP-RSS-VHP talk about making India a hindu > > > state > > > and start giving inflammatory speeches about > > > muslims. > > > 2. Chief of army staff writes a book on the > > corrupt > > > politicians and argues how dictatorship is good > > for > > > India.He starts holding meetings and tries to > > build > > > a > > > consensus that civilians are not fit to rule the > > > country and military should take over.He even > > starts > > > ad campaigns on TV. > === message truncated === 5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 18:10:32 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 05:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Freedom of Expression my foot! In-Reply-To: <90335.27906.qm@web8406.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <440157.39064.qm@web53604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Sadia:) I am not asking you to ignore them.So when I am saying something is against the essential nature of state,I do not mean how the state exists in practice.I do not mean all those things you listed because the constitution specifically does not enable them.For eg. The income equity as it exists is not the essential nature of state.All your scenarios to me become straw men. Anyway, this is my last word on this. Cheers. Rahul --- "S.Fatima" wrote: > > No Rahul, the constitution and judiciary is > certainly > not against any citizen - I am not saying that the > Dalit oppression exists because of the constitution. > > > I am stressing on the practical aspect of judiciary/ > state since that's what counts. Nobody can endanger > the essential nature of state if it is only a > theoretical entity. > > Secular democracy means nothing as long as > corruption > and prejudice exists. We cannot ignore the practical > examples. > > > > --- Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > Dear Sadia, > > I think we are using and understanding the phrase > > "essential nature of state" differently,so we are > > ending up talking through each other.In your > > usage,essential nature of state is how it exists > in > > practice.So if India is a country where dalits are > > oppressed,which I agree with incidentally, then > > perhaps in your terms the oppression of the dalits > > is > > the essential nature of the state. > > But my usage is constitutional\legal.I wont say > that > > oppresion of dalits is an "essential nature of > > Indian > > State",because the constitution does not enable > the > > oppression,quite the contrary in fact. > > So for me,the essential nature of Indian state is > a > > "secular democracy".In a secular democracy > inequity > > of > > income may exist,and other "what ifs" that you > have > > mentioned may exist.That does not make them the > > essential nature of the state,because the > > constitution > > does not specifically enable them. > > My argument is not on the lines of what is more > > important or who is more patriotic;because that is > > just sidestepping from the current topic. > > > > regards > > Rahul > > > > --- "S.Fatima" wrote: > > > > > Dear Rahul > > > Of course I am not in favour of somebody's > freedom > > > of > > > expression which puts the national security at > > risk. > > > I > > > would certainly not like an action which helps > in > > > sinking the boat which I am also riding. But the > > > point > > > is, who should decide what is a security risk? A > > > statement which is a painful truth for someone > > could > > > be a security risk for others. > > > > > > To extend your analogy a little, if the oarsman > of > > > the > > > boat decides that a few travelers are his enemy > > and > > > tries to push them into the water, there will be > a > > > clash where the victims may try to throw the > > oarsman > > > himself into water. Of course the other > travelers > > > who > > > are not aware of the origin of the clash will > > > declare > > > the victimized group as their enemies and so on. > > > Thus > > > it becomes a conflict. I know it’s a childish > > > analogy > > > but the reality is much more complex. Each one > of > > us > > > is living with our own versions of history, and > > that > > > decides our definition of nationhood and > > patriotism. > > > > > > No Indian (or human) today will say that he/she > is > > > not > > > victimized by somebody/something or the other. > > > Everyone's (hi)story is important. It’s just > that > > > the > > > state has the power to legitimately suppress > > other's > > > version of the history if they want to. And > that's > > > where my problem lies with the nationhood and > the > > > constitution. > > > > > > I fail to understand what you mean by the > > "essential > > > nature of the state" and why is it over and > above > > > everything? What if it hurts me instead of > > > safeguarding me? What if this “nature of state” > > > discriminates against a certain group of its > > > citizens > > > because of sheer sectarian prejudice or simply > > > corruption? Ultimately the “nature of state” in > > its > > > practical form is nothing but a bunch of civil > > > servants, MPs, judges, soldiers, cops - do you > > think > > > all of them are angels from heaven? (I am not > > > denying > > > thier sacrifices in running the country and > saving > > > us > > > from all the dangers, and so on). But do they > > follow > > > the constitution as perfectly as required? And > > > forget > > > about national security and defense – have they > > > provided clean water, sanitization, basic > health, > > > education, roads, housing, employment, and food > to > > > everyone? Is the “nature of state” above all > these > > > essential duties? Why shouldn’t someone become > > > Naxalite given the current nature of state? > > > > > > It doesn't matter how clean and perfect our > > > constitution is, or what our fathers of the > Nation > > > dreamt about. What matters is how is the state > > > treating its people? (Of course its reverse is > > also > > > important). But I or anyone else who faces > > injustice > > > and partiality will have a shaky belief in the > > state > > > and nationhood. In any case, most of our middle > > and > > > lower-middle class today is so helpless, > > frustrated, > > > and tired that they don’t give a damn to > > > nationalism. > > > The only people who are happily patriotic are > some > > > nicely employed or filthy rich or the NRIs. > Don’t > > > you > > > think? > > > > > > Fatima > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Sadia, > > > > Sorry for the belated reply.I guess I could > not > > > > explain myself clearly.Kshmendra has > articulated > > > it > > > > better than me.Anyways,I will try once more. > > > > To take a rough analogy;all of us are > traveling > > in > > > a > > > > boat.It does not matter really how we evolved > > into > > > > it.The boat should prohibit any activity which > > may > > > > sink it,isnt that logical? > > > > Lets take the matter of Kashmir out of this > for > > a > > > > sec.Right now,lets just focus on this:Whether > it > > > is > > > > justified by a nation to ban any kind of > freedom > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 23:30:25 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 23:30:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] THE RED BLUNDERS Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709011100l26c25027i5ffac02057033532@mail.gmail.com> 1942 : Opposed Quit India Movement 1948 : Yeh Azadi Jhooti Hai 1962 : Supported China 2007 : About To Topple Govt - The communists have consistently betrayed national interests If nationalism, as the historian Jack Gallagher was fond of quipping, devours its parents, communism consumes its own ideology. Communism was born under the sign of internationalism. The project of world revolution did not recognize national boundaries. Thus, it is funny to see Indian communists today positioning themselves as great protectors of national sovereignty. Indian communists have always had a very uncomfortable relationship with nationalism. Some of the major debates and divisions within the Communist Party of India have revolved around the question of nationalism and the national movement. And, if the truth be told, these debates do not exactly hold up the comrades in an edifying light. On the scorecard of nationalism, the performance of Indian communists is poor to say the least. (On internationalism, their score is irrelevant, since a world communist revolution is not even a pipe dream after the collapse of socialism and the exposure of the many crimes of the socialist regimes in Soviet Russia, in Eastern Europe, in China, in Albania, under Pol Pot in Cambodia and so on.) Complete Story : http://www.telegraphindia.com/1070821/asp/opinion/story_8214848.asp From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Sep 2 04:46:09 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 04:46:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> Dear all, dear Pawan, I totally agree with Pawan Durani that an accounting for the genocidial violence unleashed by the regimes that were in power in the Soviet Union, and the one that continues to be in power in the Peoples Republic of China is necessary.I say this, as someone who was raised within the Communist tradition, and as someone who has no hesitation in saying that I continue to hope for a stateless, classless global society, free of nations, corporate profit and war, if not in my lifetime, then at least in the lifetime of generations to come. Everyone has their own vision of a better world, I have mine, parts of which or all of which I might share with the visions of others, as they might share theirs with mine, and I do not see any reason to be apologetic for that vision. I say this because I have no shame, or regret in calling myself a Communist. I am not now, nor ever have been a member of any communist party, but just as I hope it is possible for people to consider themselves Hindu even if they were not member of the RSS, or Muslims even if they did not necessarily subscribe to a specific jamaat, or Christians who followed the example of Christ rather than the doctrine of an organized church, I do believe that it is possible to consider oneself a non-party Communist. Communists, more than anyone else, must deal with, account for and take responsibility for the fact that their convictions were perverted and held hostage by ruling formations, cliques and classes that led to some of the most vicious and ruthless dictatorships known to human history. They must account for letting this happen, even when they were themselves the first and most frequent victims of these regimes. Their being victims of Stalin's purges does not excuse them from the responsibility of creating a figure like Stalin in the first place. The totalitarian nightmare of Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, Caesescu's Rumania or Hoxha's Albania are not a legacy that anyone can be proud of. Nor can we be proud of the intrigue and petty authoritarianisms that mark the Trotskyite and Maoist or Marxist Leninist formations that continue to function, after a fashion, in our midst. I say this knowing that the majority of those who perished in Stalin's gulag, were, Communists. When Leon Trotsky ordered soldiers to fire on the striking sailors of the Kronstadt, he was a communist sanctioning the murder of communist militants. The millions who died in Siberia, who went to forced labour camps, were Communists. They went to the firing squad singing the Internationale - a song whose jaunty tune still has the capacity to lift my spirits on a glum day. And I love to whistle it when it rains.Still, It breaks my heart to hear it sung, because it is a song sung by executioners and by those that thyt executed, but hey, who said the world was a simple place where it all works out in the end? Everything is messy, and each of our histories is part of the mess. All this happenned, in my opinion, because, the nationalist logic of 'Socialism in One Country' and/or a tragic romance with the intoxication of newly won state power perverted the deeply democratic and internationalist elan of the global communist movement beyond imagination. From a movement that actively desired the withering away of the state, it became a political formation that presided over the withering away of society, of everything but the state. This is an object lesson for all revolutionaries and insurgents. Yesterday's fighters for freedom often become tomorrows prison wardens. I know of no exceptions. The logic of Capital is not necessarily a logic of private property. Advanced forms of Capitalism actually abolish private property, concentrating socially produced wealth in giant coroporate abstractions far more efficiently than 'nationalization' by so called socialist regimes can. What happenned in the Soviet Union, China and the erstwhile so called 'Peoples Democracies' was not 'socialism, or communism' but a monstrous amalgam of Capital and the State in the name of saving, yes, the Nation State. That is why there is no contradiction between the hyper capitalism that prevails in China today and the twisted dialectic of Mao Zedong thought. That is why Stalinists adore big dams, nuclear power and nuclear weapons to the extent that they do. Our own so called Communist Parties are no exception. I would like to illustrate this with an example that has current relevance, which has been gestured to even in the link that Pawan Durani has forwarded in one of his recent postings, and which might be of interest to some - I am talking of the current impasse over what is being called the 'nuclear deal' with the United States of America. Having deceived most people in this country, that they were against the Nuclear Weapons programme, they (the mainstream parliamentary left, led by the two so called Communist Parties) have now come around to a public posture of trying to create a protective 'fence' around our own weaponization programme, which is what they mean as 'strategic autonomy' under the banner of national sovereignty. In doing this, they have come full circle, and are now saying more or less exactly what the BJP has been saying all along. They are also in the same ideological boat as the ruling juntas in Islamabad, Tehran and Tel Aviv, which are also committed, overtly and sometimes covertly, to their own 'patriotic' nuclear deterrents. I am not an advocate of the 1-2-3 Treaty that will lock India locked into a military embrace with the United States. I am totally opposed to it, and I think that it will put us all in harm's way. But I think that the only way to oppose it is to insist on de-nuclearization - by arguing for the scrapping of the nuclear weapons fantasies of our ruling elites and by creating a sharp and coherent opposition to the idea of India becoming some sort of super power in Asia. This process (of achieving super power status) will being untold misery on the people who live in this country and in Asia at large. The greedy fantasy of energy security which makes our ruling elites salivate at the thought of sending Indian troops to guard 'indian' interests and assets in central asia is something that sends shivers down my spines. For the sake of all our futures, I hope such dreams are never realized. They will lead us straight towards war, and disaster. But our mainstream parliamentary left is as involved in living out this fantasy as anyone else is. It's argument for 'strategic autonomy' means that it wants to keep India's arsenal of nuclear weapons, wants to strike a patriotic pose, and is willing at a pinch, basically to hand this country back to the right reaction of the BJP - all in the name of proving how nationalist they are. The red in their flags is turning slowly to saffron. The choice that we could be making as a society is not one of choosing to strike alliances between an Imperialist United States or a fascist Iran, or an expansionist China. The only choice worth making is that of jettisoning nuclear weapons, demilitarizing South Asia, firstly by finding a solution to Kashmir that is acceptable to the majority of the people who live there, by making peace with our neighbours, and by ending the military occupations of the north eastern territories. It is a sign of the poverty of political imaginations in this country today that these choices are precisely those that the so called 'left' parties are bent on jettisoning but clinging to their new found doctrine of 'strategic autonomy', which puts them straight in bed, whether they like it or not, with the Bharatiya Janata Party. It was nationalism that perverted the communist ideal. That made the Soviet Union travel a distance from being the product of a revolution that had abolished the standing army to becoming a power that could only sustain itself with brute military force, and then not at all. From a conviction that held only one thing sacred, and that being that the world should have no walls, it became an ideology that built walls and the barbed wire fences of the gulag. From a form of political culture that privileged the widest liberty, with Rosa Luxemburg stating that freedom of expression is not freedom unless it is for those who are against us - communist parties travelled a long distance - to presiding over the routine suffocation of all dissent with a banal brutality. And for all this, I hold the virus of nationalism, to a large measure responsible. That is why though I have no quarrel with people who use the label socialist, communist, or even anarchist to describe my positions, I will never agree to be called a nationalist. When you put nationalism and socialism together, you get something called National Socialism. And effectively, there is little for me to choose between the National Socialism that prevailed in Germany from 1933 to 1945 and the Socialist Nationalism that prevailed in USSR, for the better part of the twentieth century, and that continues to prevail in China today. The differences that do exist are not of kind, but of degree. I am willing to accept the necessity to conduct a personal atonement for the millions who perished under regimes that called themselves communist. I personally think that it is the responsibility of anyone who calls himself or herself a communist today to undertake to mourn for all those who were (or are being) killed or displaced or imprisoned or imprisoned in the name of communism, to repent and ask for forgiveness. Because I am a communist, I hold nothing higher than humanity - ordinary simple humanity - just the worth of human beings as human beings, in all their unpredictable, unscriptable variety. Neither nations, nor parties, nor god, nor gods, nor any ideal or abstraction of progress can be more important than the health and well being of a child, or the freedom to do with our time, our leisure and our labour power as we see fit. I do not want martyrs or heroes, I want to live my life with ordinary people, doing ordinary things. I want no one I love or care for to have to die for the sake of a flag or any abstract idea, because flags and abstractions cannot feed, clothe or shelter human beings with dignity or liberty for all. This does not mean that we abandon politics, it just means that we work very hard to fashion a politics that does not demand the sacrificial offering of our humanity on a daily, hourly basis. I am willing to engage with anyone, no matter what they believe in, who is sincerely committed to this enterprise. But it does require us all to take a long and hard look at ourselves. I want to know which political ideology, which nation, which religious faith has not, in the history of humanity demanded and received its due in blood. Everyone can claim the status of victims for themselves, and everyone has the blood of others on their hands. And the arithmetic of who has killed more, and who has killed less is far less interesting than the more difficult and demanding task of accounting for the actions of the executioners on your own side. What I want to know is, will those who call themselves nationalists undertake to mourn for all those who have been killed in order that their beloved and sacred nations remain the fictions that they are on the map of the world? For me, the communist idea remains what it was for the Communards of the Paris Commune, for the partisans of the Petersburgh Soviet and for the Workers and Peasant Councils of Republican Spain - that of a world, and a social order where people, not corporations or governments, control the relations they enter into in order to produce the things that make life possible and worth living. A world without armies, states, police forces, intelligence agencies, weapons traders, or factories that pollute the earth or poison peoples bodies. A world without alienated and alienating labour. Where each of us labour according to our capacities and receive the fruits of our labour according to our neends. Where we begin to move from the shackles of necessity to the emancipation of desire. For this reason, I am willing most of all, to look hard and long at the legacies that I have inherited, and subject them to the sharpest possible critique if they are found poor and wanting in relation to the dream of a just and free world. If this list is a place where we can all begin this process of reflection on the limitations and areas of darkness within all that we profess and have inherited - whether as liberals, islamists, hindutva-vadis, secularists, nationalists, cynics and sceptics then it will be worth the provocation that Pawan Durani has put before us. I thought I would rise to the bait, and risk making a fool of myself, if necessary. Of course, if we all think that none of us have anything to reflect on or atone for, I, and I hope Pawan, will be sorely disappointed. Your turn Pawan. Tell me what you think is wrong with the fact that the Indian state killed so many thousands of people in Kashmir. Do you think there is anything wrong? Or would you like to pass over these thousands of deaths in silence. I have heard more than the odd person with separatist sentiments in Kashmir make the gesture of apology for the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, and for the death of Kashmiri pandits, for the destruction of their property. Sometimes the sadness and regret in that apology is a ritual, but often it is not fake. I walked with a friend in Srinagar one night in the vicinity of the Khanqah and mosque of Shah Hamadan, and he pointed out to me a place close by the bank of the river where a shrine once stood, and then we both stood in front of it in silence for a while. And he tried to find words to talk about the strange days of 1989. It wasn't easy for him, and I did not make it easy for him, but the conversation did not damage our friendship. He told me what I knew already, about the way Jagmohan, then then governor of Jammu and Kashmir, engineered the exodus, about the rumours and panic that was spread through the grapevines carefully cultivated by the state, and about the painful slogans in the streets. All this I know, we all know. But he also said, "It was wrong of the state to make them go, It was wrong on the part of those that created the climate of fear (and he meant the separatists, or those within their ranks who had undoubtedly attacked some high profile Kasmiri Pandit individualsr, and it was wrong on their part for them to go and to leave us at the mercy of the state, but it was also wrong on our part that we did so little to make them stay". I want you to think carefully and tell me if you can respect this feeling of loss? I agree that you have every reason for your pain, but what if I said, abandoning those who were your neighbours also gave them no opportunity to heal or at least address your pain. Have you ever considered what it is like to be yourself, when someone who is not you, who is the other, is no longer there to speak to, to be with, to be different from? What is the strange loss we feel when the person we think is our most intense antagonist leaves us alone to be with ourselves? For many Kashmiri's who remain where they have always lived, who did not have places to go to where the Indian army would not hound them, perhaps It comes from a strange and difficult to explain sense of loss at seeing the abandonment of their neighbours home. Perhaps It comes from the unease of knowing that no 'azadi' will ever be complete if it is won at the cost of the exodus of a minority. Sometimes it comes from the memory of a Pandit school master in a village school who suddenly disappeared on that night that you all mention. I always find it interesting to come to that point when someone says that his or her people have done something wrong. Often it means risking being called a traitor. I think in our times, traitors are saints. Imperfect, flawed, awkward saints, but the only kind that I can light a candle to. So all heretics are my friends. They make it possible for people in the camps of their enemies undertake necessary acts of counter-treason. When two traitors meet from opposite sides, there is the possibility of an encounter very different from the kind that normally gets scripted by the security forces of our beleagured republic. There is the possibility of an unpredictable conversation. This list, over the past few days, has been the setting for some unpredictable conversations, I do not wish them to end. I am a traitor, and many communists will call me one for saying the things that I have said in this post in response to your provocation. But then I think that sometimes, treason is the only honorable thing. However, I have yet to come across a Indian nationalist ideologue who believes Kashmir to be an indivisible part of India express any regret over the thousands of Kashmiri Muslims who were killed by Indian soldiers or who disappeared in the nineties in Kashmir, or about the thousands who were tortured or imprisoned, because all this happenned to keep Kashmir's within the map of India. For them, this violence was justified and necessary. Those deaths were necessary. You may meet many communists who will say that the killing of millions in the Soviet Union or in China was justified and necessary. I am not one of them, and there are many others like me. But I am still looking for the Indian nationalist who is willing to say sorry for Kashmir, for Manipur, for Nagaland. Perhaps you could be the one who makes a beginning. Try it out in your head and tell me what it feels like. Reject it if you want, but at least try it out. And tell me what it feels like for a moment to be a little larger than your own corner of the pain that engulfs us all. Please do share your feeling with this list. regards, Shuddha Pawan Durani wrote: > With the passing of communism into history as an ideological alternative to > democracy it is time to do some accounting of its human costs. > > http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Sep 2 06:13:47 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 17:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Freedom of Expression my foot! In-Reply-To: <727e0aceb5fad0485ed8169c3838fef9@mail.xtdnet.nl> Message-ID: <21120.59147.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Zainab, OK,I read that.Well written.Can you please do me a favor and read my posts in this thread and tell me what do you think I stand for? Also,can you please do me one more favour and tell me what do you mean by nation? This will help me in answering your question. Best regards Rahul --- zainab wrote: > I do not live in a war zone > I live in a state of terror > Terror which is perpetual > which assumes various proportions. > There is terror inside of me, > Outside of me > Terror about who is lurking, > In those distant shadows > Is it my enemy or my foe? > Oh, it is the security guard! > He is here for my security. > He has a naked gun in his hand > The gun is ignorant, but the guard is not. > The strength, might, and power of the gun gives me > courage to muster up > courage. > I am feeling safe. > My breath is calm and smooth. > So is my heartbeat. > I am safe. > Suddenly, the guard advances towards me > His naked gun is too. > He comes close enough, > looks into my eyes, > peers. His looks are piercing. > He says, ‘Sorry pal, I have to shoot you down.’ > ‘I have to shoot you so that you become (vulgar) > news.’ > ‘The headlines should shriek, ‘We gunned down an > enemy spy.’’ > ‘But I am a citizen of this country, not an enemy > spy,’ I pleaded. > ‘Why do you do this to me? > What is my crime? > What is my sin?’ > ‘Nuffing! Nffing’s your crime, > Nuffing’s your sin’ > ‘You are simply going to be a martyr, > A martyr of the Other Side > And a source of security for Our Side > You see buddy, there are many > whom I have to protect, > Many whom I have to make feel safe > Many whom I have to assure that the world is a safe > place to be in, to live > in > as long as I am there. > So put your faith (and money) in me (and my guns) > For as long as I am there, > You will be there, > Your progeny will be there, > Safe, calm and soothed. > And you, buddy, will help me comfort the souls of > this world > Souls, who are in un-rest and discomfort > Because the Other is there, > The enemy is there, > And they (the perturbed and disturbed souls) need to > be protected > And made to feel secure. > Your death shall bring them security. > Your dead body shall unnerve their perturbed souls. > Your death will be their joy.’ > ‘But what about tomorrow,’ I asked, > ‘Who will you gun tomorrow? > How long will you continue to make them feel safe, > Feel secure, feel soothed? > Will they ever cease to be insecure?’ > ‘No, not until I know,’ said he, > ‘As long as there are weapons, > As long as there are bombs, > As long as there are walls (in people’s minds) > As long as people don’t know > (The unknown enemy is always greater than the known) > As long as we don’t let them know, > Fear will prevail (in their hearts and minds) > The state of terror shall be > And there shall be martyrs like you > Whom we shall slay alive’ > Saying this, he shot a bullet into my skull > And the next day, I, an unknown citizen, became > known. > I became The Enemy. > > So now Rahul, I want to ask you a question - what is > this nation that you > talk about? What is this nation which cannot hear > anything said against it? > What is this nation that has the right to clamp down > on me if I say > something which is supposedly against it? > > Best, > > Zainab > > > > > > > On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 05:40:32 -0700 (PDT), Rahul > Asthana > wrote: > > Sadia:) > > I am not asking you to ignore them.So when I am > saying > > something is against the essential nature of > state,I > > do not mean how the state exists in practice.I do > not > > mean all those things you listed because the > > constitution specifically does not enable them.For > eg. > > The income equity as it exists is not the > essential > > nature of state.All your scenarios to me become > straw > > men. > > Anyway, this is my last word on this. > > Cheers. > > Rahul > > > > > > --- "S.Fatima" wrote: > > > >> > >> No Rahul, the constitution and judiciary is > >> certainly > >> not against any citizen - I am not saying that > the > >> Dalit oppression exists because of the > constitution. > >> > >> > >> I am stressing on the practical aspect of > judiciary/ > >> state since that's what counts. Nobody can > endanger > >> the essential nature of state if it is only a > >> theoretical entity. > >> > >> Secular democracy means nothing as long as > >> corruption > >> and prejudice exists. We cannot ignore the > practical > >> examples. > >> > >> > >> > >> --- Rahul Asthana wrote: > >> > >> > Dear Sadia, > >> > I think we are using and understanding the > phrase > >> > "essential nature of state" differently,so we > are > >> > ending up talking through each other.In your > >> > usage,essential nature of state is how it > exists > >> in > >> > practice.So if India is a country where dalits > are > >> > oppressed,which I agree with incidentally, then > >> > perhaps in your terms the oppression of the > dalits > >> > is > >> > the essential nature of the state. > >> > But my usage is constitutional\legal.I wont say > >> that > >> > oppresion of dalits is an "essential nature of > >> > Indian > >> > State",because the constitution does not enable > >> the > >> > oppression,quite the contrary in fact. > >> > So for me,the essential nature of Indian state > is > >> a > >> > "secular democracy".In a secular democracy > >> inequity > >> > of > >> > income may exist,and other "what ifs" that you > >> have > >> > mentioned may exist.That does not make them the > >> > essential nature of the state,because the > >> > constitution > >> > does not specifically enable them. > >> > My argument is not on the lines of what is more > >> > important or who is more patriotic;because that > is > >> > just sidestepping from the current topic. > >> > > >> > regards > >> > Rahul > >> > > >> > --- "S.Fatima" > wrote: > >> > > >> > > Dear Rahul > >> > > Of course I am not in favour of somebody's > >> freedom > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Sep 2 09:51:48 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 21:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Freedom of Expression my foot! In-Reply-To: <59283ef380b00636f486be1aabeba821@mail.xtdnet.nl> Message-ID: <813282.92465.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Zainab, I noticed you did not answer my first question.So I assume you did not go through my posts and\or you do not know what I stand for.You just know that I am talking about restricting freedom of speech and it is connected with nation in some way.This thought is probably so traumatic to you that you wrote that earlier post in deep anguish and you refuse to see the nuance in my stand;nor do you have a concept of nation of your own. I do not have anything new to say;not that I am unwilling to discuss that or repeat it further.But what you are asking me is nothing but a straw man.So yeah,my view is that freedom of expression for anything that cannot be achieved by a constitutional process as the constitution is defined today should be restricted.Or in other words,anything which is against what is defined as the "essential nature of the constitution" or is defined as the "essential nature of the state" should be restricted. So anything against secularism,democracy etc should be restricted.Anything which seeks to redefine as our state exists now AS A LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL ENTITY should be restricted. If its still not clear,In this forum and at other places I have criticized AFSPA repeatedly.AFSPA is not the essential nature of the state;it can be repealed by a constitutional process. What else?Did I miss anything? Let me know. Oh yes and if the essential nature of state is not clear as I mean it,do go through this link.. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20070115/edit.htm#4 Regards Rahul --- zainab wrote: > Hi Rahul, > > I really do not know what this nation is and > thereofore I am asking you > what is this nation that you talk about? What is > this nation that is above > me or greater than me, which has the right to ban my > freedom of expression > (which it incidentally does under the guise of > 'reasonable restrictions' > and 'national security' if we read Article 19 (1)) > if I 'say anything > against it'? I don't know what this nation is. I > don't know what this > mighty force is and I refuse to let it determine my > life. > > Best, > > Zainab > > > On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 17:43:47 -0700 (PDT), Rahul > Asthana > wrote: > > Zainab, > > OK,I read that.Well written.Can you please do me a > > favor and read my posts in this thread and tell me > > what do you think I stand for? > > Also,can you please do me one more favour and tell > me > > what do you mean by nation? > > > > This will help me in answering your question. > > Best regards > > Rahul > > > > > > --- zainab wrote: > > > >> I do not live in a war zone > >> I live in a state of terror > >> Terror which is perpetual > >> which assumes various proportions. > >> There is terror inside of me, > >> Outside of me > >> Terror about who is lurking, > >> In those distant shadows > >> Is it my enemy or my foe? > >> Oh, it is the security guard! > >> He is here for my security. > >> He has a naked gun in his hand > >> The gun is ignorant, but the guard is not. > >> The strength, might, and power of the gun gives > me > >> courage to muster up > >> courage. > >> I am feeling safe. > >> My breath is calm and smooth. > >> So is my heartbeat. > >> I am safe. > >> Suddenly, the guard advances towards me > >> His naked gun is too. > >> He comes close enough, > >> looks into my eyes, > >> peers. His looks are piercing. > >> He says, ‘Sorry pal, I have to shoot you > down.’ > >> ‘I have to shoot you so that you become > (vulgar) > >> news.’ > >> ‘The headlines should shriek, ‘We > gunned down an > >> enemy spy.’’ > >> ‘But I am a citizen of this country, not an > enemy > >> spy,’ I pleaded. > >> ‘Why do you do this to me? > >> What is my crime? > >> What is my sin?’ > >> ‘Nuffing! Nffing’s your crime, > >> Nuffing’s your sin’ > >> ‘You are simply going to be a martyr, > >> A martyr of the Other Side > >> And a source of security for Our Side > >> You see buddy, there are many > >> whom I have to protect, > >> Many whom I have to make feel safe > >> Many whom I have to assure that the world is a > safe > >> place to be in, to live > >> in > >> as long as I am there. > >> So put your faith (and money) in me (and my guns) > >> For as long as I am there, > >> You will be there, > >> Your progeny will be there, > >> Safe, calm and soothed. > >> And you, buddy, will help me comfort the souls of > >> this world > >> Souls, who are in un-rest and discomfort > >> Because the Other is there, > >> The enemy is there, > >> And they (the perturbed and disturbed souls) need > to > >> be protected > >> And made to feel secure. > >> Your death shall bring them security. > >> Your dead body shall unnerve their perturbed > souls. > >> Your death will be their joy.’ > >> ‘But what about tomorrow,’ I asked, > >> ‘Who will you gun tomorrow? > >> How long will you continue to make them feel > safe, > >> Feel secure, feel soothed? > >> Will they ever cease to be insecure?’ > >> ‘No, not until I know,’ said he, > >> ‘As long as there are weapons, > >> As long as there are bombs, > >> As long as there are walls (in people’s > minds) > >> As long as people don’t know > >> (The unknown enemy is always greater than the > known) > >> As long as we don’t let them know, > >> Fear will prevail (in their hearts and minds) > >> The state of terror shall be > >> And there shall be martyrs like you > >> Whom we shall slay alive’ > >> Saying this, he shot a bullet into my skull > >> And the next day, I, an unknown citizen, became > >> known. > >> I became The Enemy. > >> > >> So now Rahul, I want to ask you a question - what > is > >> this nation that you > >> talk about? What is this nation which cannot hear > >> anything said against it? > >> What is this nation that has the right to clamp > down > >> on me if I say > >> something which is supposedly against it? > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Zainab > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 05:40:32 -0700 (PDT), Rahul > >> Asthana > >> wrote: > >> > Sadia:) > >> > I am not asking you to ignore them.So when I am > >> saying > >> > something is against the essential nature of > >> state,I > >> > do not mean how the state exists in practice.I > do > >> not > >> > mean all those things you listed because the > >> > constitution specifically does not enable > them.For > >> eg. > >> > The income equity as it exists is not the > >> essential > >> > nature of state.All your scenarios to me become > >> straw > >> > men. > >> > Anyway, this is my last word on this. > >> > Cheers. > >> > Rahul > >> > > >> > > >> > --- "S.Fatima" > wrote: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> No Rahul, the constitution and judiciary is > >> >> certainly > >> >> not against any citizen - I am not saying that > >> the > >> >> Dalit oppression exists because of the > >> constitution. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I am stressing on the practical aspect of > >> judiciary/ > >> >> state since that's what counts. Nobody can > >> endanger > >> >> the essential nature of state if it is only a > >> >> theoretical entity. > >> >> > >> >> Secular democracy means nothing as long as > >> >> corruption > >> >> and prejudice exists. We cannot ignore the > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Sep 2 09:59:30 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 21:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0709010230k4568a66do582ae68a35e9c21a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <70906.34838.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Yasir, Iqbal was a school,in fact,Iqbal is a school\university in himself.It does not matter which education he got. Anyway,"Hum Dekhenge" clearly has mass appeal.It came to be more identified with Iqbal Bano than Faiz. Personally ,I prefer the other Iqbal Bano Faiz combo, "dasht-e-tanhaai".Its also on youtube,I guess. regards Rahul --- yasir ~ wrote: > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that both > sides (or as > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and > Muhammad Iqbal - > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri quoting > Meray Dil Meray > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an > unimportant note that > they both received a similar religious education > while growing up in > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > sounds. > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum > Dekhenge. it becoming an > anthem during the zia years. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From siraj at machizo.com Sun Sep 2 10:13:01 2007 From: siraj at machizo.com (Shahjahan Siraj) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 10:43:01 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] UnnayanTV has been launched Message-ID: <003101c7ed1b$be777c30$8a11000a@siraj> UnnayanTV http://www.unnayantv.com UnnayanTV is the Bangladesh first online video channel which will publish regularly video contents on development, human rights and educational issues of Bangladesh. It is an alternative initiative against the commercial gaint media. The Bangla word "Unnayan" is stand for "Development" ie. "Development of human life and civilization" However UnnayanTV will profoundly produce and feature video contents on grassroots reality, cultural spirit, environment, marginalised community, development success story, indigenous ways, human rights, alternative initiatives and promising leadership. Multimedia local content producing, advocacy to peoples rights and promoting majority peoples stories with innovative journalistic approach are the main mission of UnnayanTV. It will focus to feature the unreported Bangladesh and will create space for marginalized community particularly grassroots poor to express their voice, experience and stories. UnnyanTV's vision to make Bangladeshi grassroots people as "internet hero`. UnnayanTV is open for making partnership and collaboration with national and international development organisations and creative individuals who are committed to develop the present scenarios. UnnayanTV a non for profit project of Machizo, social entrepreneur multimedia and communication organisation in Bangladesh. The ideas was started from UnnayanNews initiative, a Panos funded initiative. Support and sustainability: UnnayanTV will become a sustainable initiative by providing audio-visual services to the human rights and development organisations. However it will produce online video contents on different human rights and development issues with collaboration to local and international similar minded organisaitons and individuals who are committed to change the society. UnnayanTV is open to receive donations and grant from generous organisation, foundation and individuals. Now UnnayanTV is operating the self finance of Machizo Multimedia however to reduce the burden from host organisaiton it is collecting minimum fund by Google Adsense. It is ultimate plan to be independent and establish a multimedia studio to Bangladeshi local content which would be open for youth media professional for their experimental and innovative works. .... Shahjahan Siraj Director, Machizo Multimedia E.mail: siraj at machizo.com Phone: + 88-01715212204, +88-02-9119846 http://www.machizo.com ; http://www.unnayantv.com http://www.unnayannews.net From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 10:51:21 2007 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 10:51:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz Message-ID: <73eb60090709012221k60f2bd29r871faf855a82a48a@mail.gmail.com> So finally, what's there on the Youtube becomes our authentic literature and poetry. Wow. We used to read Urdu poetry in Urdu books, then came the same in Devanagri script which was fine as long as it reached more and more people. But the present generation will learn about our culture and history and poetry from Utube. Very soon the archeologist will start digging Utube for writing history, and we'll have live mushaira's on Orkut. KS --- Rahul Asthana wrote: > Yasir, > Iqbal was a school,in fact,Iqbal is a > school\university in himself.It does not matter > which > education he got. > Anyway,"Hum Dekhenge" clearly has mass appeal.It > came > to be more identified with Iqbal Bano than Faiz. > Personally ,I prefer the other Iqbal Bano Faiz > combo, > "dasht-e-tanhaai".Its also on youtube,I guess. > > regards > Rahul > --- yasir ~ wrote: > > > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that > both > > sides (or as > > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and > > Muhammad Iqbal - > > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri > quoting > > Meray Dil Meray > > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an > > unimportant note that > > they both received a similar religious education > > while growing up in > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > sounds. > > > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum > > Dekhenge. it becoming an > > anthem during the zia years. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship > answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - > Check it out. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Sep 2 11:14:01 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <925918.70858.qm@web45503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Vedavati, That is very nice to listen from you. My comments are due to your earlier postings and my observations of your feelings against kashmir and the related issues. Forget about muslim woman in india or else where in the world, but what about woman from kashmir(in particular pandit) ? You never talked about them? Brahmin woman marriages in paritcular Pandits woman marriages. I failed to understand why you didn't touched this? But the problem is these people dont go beyond caste?--> the reason is neither brahmins nor othercaste accept the couples and the children. Even society like in schools,jobs,marriages? This is the practicality. Let me explain you about the CASTE scenario with a live practical example. 1) For joining a job after successful completion of a professional or non-professional course , CASTE is a column in filling application for private organisations apart from government,nongovernment organisations. Are you aware of this? After joining a job, 2) Next coming back to the smartness of other castes for their feelings on their backwardness, they obiviously use CASTE as a tool to get the desired results,if they are experienced or in lead positions. Like if I am an upper caste and my CEO,MD of the company is also from my caste, these experienced other caste people use the CASTE plate against me to get the desired results, which the professional/technical world call it as smartness. Facts are like this --> for whatever reasons, the so called UPPER CASTE people are getting screwed like anything. May be wrong people are projecting themself as BRAHMINS, UPPER CASTES or due to time things are going like this. Are you aware what are all the sins(known/unknown) your husband is doing to sustain the family? Hindu society, kashmiri men, particularly kashmiri pandits can marry because they are just men. but what about the woman? pandit woman?brahmin woman? Your writings may affect the lives of others so just responded you. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 2 16:49:06 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 04:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai (acronym?) Message-ID: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> This is for those of you who are the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai" who are so obsessed with just only their Self that they have lost all Self-respect. Interestingly, since some here are very fond of acronyms, they can work out the acronym for "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai". Fits them. One called M Yousuf chooses to talk about Kashmir in SARAI. He uses the term "Indian occupied Kashmir" and none of you "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai" contests that usage. One of the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai", Shuddhabrata Sengupta, in fact gleefully acknowledges the contribution made by M Yousuf: """"""The A.R.K.P interpretation (thanks, Yousuf for a handy nomenklatural abbreviation for this 'league of extraordinary gentlemen' of Aditya, Rashneek, Kshemendra and Pawan, or should I say 'Amalgamated Recidivist Kooks & Poseurs')"""""""""" Kshmendra Kaul --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Sep 2 17:23:41 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 04:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Freedom of Expression my foot! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <872370.51345.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I am not speaking for you..in case that was not clear. Thanks. --- zainab wrote: > Dear Rahul, > > I have read your posts and exchanges with keen > interest and I was not sure > if I was reading what you were saying right, but > this email clarifies what > you have been trying to say. > > So let's get down to questioning some of the > concepts and ideas that you > have been mentioning in the posts you have made: > > a). nation - ??? > b). democracy - ??? > c). secularism - ??? > d). essential nature of the state - ??? > > The reason I have put question marks against each > one of these is because > it seems that we have certain images at work when we > say nation, > secularism, democracy and state. We evoke the > constitution to try to > concretize these abstract ideas. In everyday life, > each of these concepts > and ideas take on different meanings. Your example > of people in > Iran/Iraq/Muslim countries wanting to attain > secularism and democracy can > ony do so through violent revolutions is not a > strong one because what do > democracy and secularism mean in the context of > these countries? Surely, > they cannot mean the same thing as they mean in > India. Surely, Hindu or > Muslim or Christian is not one composite identity > and that even though an > individual may be born in the religion of Islam, his > being born in India, > in South India, in Bangalore, in a slum in Bangalore > and the historical > conditions of that slum make him very different from > a Muslim living in > Fraser Town in Bangalore. Therefore, what secularism > and democracy mean to > him will be completely different from what they mean > to the rich Muslim in > Fraser Town. To give a more concrete example, an > interesting research on > slums and poverty in Bangalore points out how > Muslims in Azadnagar slum in > Bangalore identify with the Dalits owing to > historical consciousness and > detest the rich Kanpuri Muslims in the same slum > saying, "those Kanpuri > Muslims do not even allow us into their homes > because they think we will > learn their trade if we enter their homes'. My > father is best friends with > Gujaratis and his immense communal hatred is towards > Bohra Muslims, Punjabi > Muslims of Pakistan, Bengali Muslims of Bangladesh > and he views Kashmiri > Muslims with scepticism. > > You have also been mentioning in your posts about > civil wars, violent > change, etc. which threatens the 'essential nature' > of the 'state'. Can > change not happen peacefully? What about South > Africa? In India itself, > haven't we seen the creation of Jharkhand and > Chattisgarh without violence > (and without threatening the essential nature of the > state whatever that > means)? Have we also not seen the worst of violence > in Gujarat in 2002 and > yet not a single word about separation and > cessation? In my earlier post, I > had asked this question of what is the fear about > disintegration of the > nation (whatever that nation means and wherever that > nation is)? Can the > nation be disintegrated with a click of the finger? > This fear of > disintegration appears to be so strong that the > nation and the people > sanction censorship and a variety of violences and > injustices in the name > of nation security, territorial integrity and > sovereignty. > > I have every right to disagree and express an > opinion against the nation if > the nation is violent, is threatening to curb my > freedom because what > nation is free if people living within those > territorial boundaries are not > free to express a different opinion. What is this > intense fear we have > against someone expressing an opinion different from > ours? What makes them > 'them' and us 'us'? > > Therefore if you even think that it is legitimate > for the nation to clamp > down our freedom of expression if we say something > against the nation then > that thought is a highly problematic idea for me. > Those who believe in this > should then talk only about themselves and not > attempt to speak on behalf > of others. Not for me for sure! > > Best, > > Zainab > > > On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 21:21:48 -0700 (PDT), Rahul > Asthana > wrote: > > Hi Zainab, > > I noticed you did not answer my first question.So > I > > assume you did not go through my posts and\or you > do > > not know what I stand for.You just know that I am > > talking about restricting freedom of speech and it > is > > connected with nation in some way.This thought is > > probably so traumatic to you that you wrote that > > earlier post in deep anguish and you refuse to see > the > > nuance in my stand;nor do you have a concept of > nation > > of your own. > > I do not have anything new to say;not that I am > > unwilling to discuss that or repeat it further.But > > what you are asking me is nothing but a straw > man.So > > yeah,my view is that freedom of expression for > > anything that cannot be achieved by a > constitutional > > process as the constitution is defined today > should be > > restricted.Or in other words,anything which is > against > > what is defined as the "essential nature of the > > constitution" or is defined as the "essential > nature > > of the state" should be restricted. > > So anything against secularism,democracy etc > should be > > restricted.Anything which seeks to redefine as our > > state exists now AS A LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL > ENTITY > > should be restricted. > > If its still not clear,In this forum and at other > > places I have criticized AFSPA repeatedly.AFSPA is > not > > the essential nature of the state;it can be > repealed > > by a constitutional process. > > What else?Did I miss anything? > > Let me know. > > Oh yes and if the essential nature of state is not > > clear as I mean it,do go through this link.. > > > http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20070115/edit.htm#4 > > Regards > > Rahul > > > > > > --- zainab wrote: > > > >> Hi Rahul, > >> > >> I really do not know what this nation is and > >> thereofore I am asking you > >> what is this nation that you talk about? What is > >> this nation that is above > >> me or greater than me, which has the right to ban > my > >> freedom of expression > >> (which it incidentally does under the guise of > >> 'reasonable restrictions' > >> and 'national security' if we read Article 19 > (1)) > >> if I 'say anything > >> against it'? I don't know what this nation is. I > >> don't know what this > >> mighty force is and I refuse to let it determine > my > >> life. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Zainab > >> > >> > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From sood.ashima at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 17:49:33 2007 From: sood.ashima at gmail.com (Ashima Sood) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 08:19:33 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? Message-ID: <627409d50709020519u741e138fmf7345bd03e25ee75@mail.gmail.com> Dear M. Ray/ MSRG, You say, 'If you can do anything yourself, do that only.' If you had read Gargi Sen's post through to the end, you would have seen that she expresses a similar sentiment in superior terms: 'I can¹t really ask God to bless you, but I do wish you lots and lots of abundant energy for your cause, for your cause can only help my cause - that of showing and screening all films to everybody.' In any case, please use your real/ full name when you vituperate on a public list. I also generally do not enter these e-debates but your vicious attack on Gargi Sen's serious attempt at engagement/ conversation left me very disturbed. Ashima Sood ----------------------------- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:19:10 +0530 From: MRSG Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? To: reader-list at sarai.net, Gargi Sen Message-ID: <002501c7ec5b$d3d6b070$0300a8c0 at MRAY> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Dear Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul I have not entered in this Kashmir debate execpt that I informed that Kashmir is only 20% of all J&K. (Generally I donot enter this e-debates, only because of my fellowship here, I go through this list and sometimes cannot resist to get involved) HOWEVER MY SUGGESTION TO YOU THAT NEVER LISTEN TO A 'SECULAR BENGALI HINDU REFUGEE'. They are the worst of backboneless people on the earth. Bengali hindus are being raped, killed, looted everyday in Bangladesh (previous East Pakistan) and they are coming in India everyday. But nearly all the refugees are not only silent but also go anyway to stop talking about it. While in las 50 years not a single muslim has migrated from West Bengal to EPakistan/Bangladesh, millions of bengali hindus have come to West Bengal and they are coming and coming. Bangladesh's hindu population has come down from 30% in 1951 to 9% in 2001, worst ethnic cleansing in modern history. Not only that. now Bangladeshi Muslims are coming in hordes. West Bengal's demography has changed. Its just matter of time to turn West Bengal into Bangladesh. SO PLEASE NEVER debate with them, its useless. Let them go on with their intellectual acrobatics till some day their houses are looted, their women are raped. If you can do anything yourself, do that only. M. Ray From yousufism at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 18:00:23 2007 From: yousufism at gmail.com (M Yousuf) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 18:00:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai (acronym?) In-Reply-To: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19ba050f0709020530m7b4b5a8eqa58680fcf7bccb3b@mail.gmail.com> I can see Kshemendra Koul going home following the rest of ARKP. And this post clearly shows where he comes from. I am happy at least Kshemendra has read Shddhabrata's exhaustive response. that for sure is a healthy sign. But none from the likes of ARKP could, as I have observed so far, manage putting together an argument or enough intellectual resource to muster a response to the actualities contained in Shuddabrata's investigation. Time for them to make that natural journey of growth, from their rhetoric that they so vehemently believe in, to defendable and sound argument. What Kshemendra also manages to make clear is that this free space should be vacated by everybody to be left available only for the passion of keying expressions disconnected with any thought. Any suggestions Sarai visitors/contributors? Since a blackberry slip mentions"Indian occupied Kashmir", when a large country like India needs one third of its army (700000 in total consisting army, BSF, CRPF etc) to control an entire people in Kashmir, what else can it be described as but occupation. I am not an Indian and even if I was, I would still allow history, politics of occupation and universal principals to guide my understanding rather than being carried away by my blind attachment with a nation state. This space is doing a great job at keeping different people with different views and arguments engaged. While some of us may benefit others refuse to acknowledge the benefits of a healthy discourse. M Yousuf On 9/2/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > This is for those of you who are the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring > Sarai" who are so obsessed with just only their Self that they have lost all > Self-respect. > > Interestingly, since some here are very fond of acronyms, they can work > out the acronym for "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai". Fits them. > > One called M Yousuf chooses to talk about Kashmir in SARAI. He uses the > term "Indian occupied Kashmir" and none of you "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians > Touring Sarai" contests that usage. > > One of the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai", Shuddhabrata > Sengupta, in fact gleefully acknowledges the contribution made by M Yousuf: > > """"""The A.R.K.P interpretation (thanks, Yousuf for a handy > nomenklatural abbreviation for this 'league of extraordinary gentlemen' of > Aditya, Rashneek, Kshemendra and Pawan, or should I say 'Amalgamated > Recidivist Kooks & Poseurs')"""""""""" > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From ysikand at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 19:00:08 2007 From: ysikand at gmail.com (Yogi Sikand) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 19:00:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Beliefs and Politics of a Pseudo-Mahdist Cult: Goharshahi and the Mehdi Foundation International Message-ID: <48097acc0709020630v527197dex15a0878bb0813c8c@mail.gmail.com> The Beliefs and Politics of a Pseudo-Mahdist Cult: Goharshahi and the Mehdi Foundation International By Yoginder Sikand* Introduction This paper looks at the origins and development of the cult of Riyaz Ahmad Goharshahi (1941-2001), who, a large section of his followers believe, claimed to be the Imam Mahdi. It begins with a brief description of his teachings and his life and goes on to deal with the cult after his death, when his followers split into two main groups: the London-based Mehdi Foundation International (MFI) and the Pakistan-based Anjuman-e Sarfaroshan-e Islam (ASI). It then focuses, in particular, on the beliefs of the former group and its political involvement in Pakistan and elsewhere. Note on Sources The paper is based largely on material hosted on the several websites run by both groups of Goharshahi's followers as well as literature by the cult's critics. Claims on behalf of Goharshahi put forward by both the ASI and the MFI need to be taken with extreme caution, as both groups present him in an obviously exaggerated, hagiographic mould and are very likely to be false. To add to this, it is clear from a reading of these sources that both groups put forward several claims on behalf of Goharshahi that may not necessarily be in accordance with Goharshahi's actual teachings. Be that as it may, these claims reflect the way in which Goharshahi's followers presently perceive him. Both the ASI and the MFI have fairly contradictory views on Goharshahi on several crucial points, each claiming to be his legitimate successor. This itself suggests that their claims are disputable. Riyaz Ahmad Goharshahi: His Life, Teachings and Claims The Goharshahi cult is centred on the figure of Riyaz Ahmad Goharshahi, who was born in 1941 in the village of Dhak Goharshahi in the Gujjar Khan tehsil of the Rawalpindi district of Pakistan's Punjab province.[1] Little is mentioned about his early years in the available literature. He is said to have studied in a regular school till the matriculation level. He did not receive any formal Islamic education, but he claimed to have been directly taught by the Prophet Muhammad himself. [2] In 1975, Goharshahi publicly claimed that what he called the jussa-e tawfiq-e ilahi, or 'the sub-spirit of God', had entered him. [3] Five years later, he began preaching, presenting himself as a Sufi of the Qadiriya order. He set up a centre in the town of Hyderabad and then shifted to the town of Kotri in Sindh, where he established what he called the Khuda Ki Basti ('The Locality of God'). Over time, his controversial views about basic tents of Islam as well as claims about himself brought him into conflict with several Pakistani 'ulema, who accused him of blasphemy. In the late 1990s, a number of criminal cases, including related to murder, illegal possession of arms and illegal possession of land, were instituted against Goharshahi, forcing him to flee to Britain. Soon after his arrival there he was given life sentence in absentia by the Sindh High Court. In Britain, he succeeded in making a fairly significant number of followers, particularly among expatriate Pakistanis. For his bizarre beliefs and teachings, he was stiffly opposed by some Muslims there, too, and his house in Manchester was bombed. Yet, he kept up his preaching work, traveling to several other European countries and America and making converts, mainly among people of Pakistani origin. In addition to the ASI, which he had set up in Pakistan in 1980, he established the Riaz Ahmad Goharshahi (RAGS) International and the MFI in Britain and the American Sufi Institute in the United States to propagate his views, giving these small outfits high-sounding names in order to portray them as larger than life. According to the MFI, Goharshahi went into occultation or ghaiba in London on 27 November 2001, while according to the ASI he died a natural death. Consequently, the ASI constructed a tomb for him at Kotri, in Sindh, where he had preached for many years, which was later to become a major bone of contention of the two rival groups. In addition to these two major groups, some splinter groups, now with very few followers, emerged following Goharshahi's death, each claiming to inherit his legacy.[4] Goharshahi's Teachings and Claims Goharshahi was credited with having written several books. The most important of these, in the eyes of his followers, is the Din-e Ilahi ('The Religion of God'), which he wrote after he fled Pakistan. [5] It appears, in parts, like a Sufistic text, focusing particularly on love for God and His creation. However, in this and in other texts penned by him, Goharshahi made claims that were fiercely contested by Muslim clerics, resulting in several fatwas of disbelief against him. Thus, for instance, a tract penned by a Pakistani Sunni Barelvi scholar, Muhammad Afzal Kotalvi, claims that Goharshahi sought to justify the consumption of drugs and womanizing by seeking to provide what he called 'exoteric' (batini) interpretations for the explicit (zahiri) commandments of Islam. [6] By claiming privileged access to what he called the 'esoteric meaning' of the Qur'an, Goharshahi is said to have argued that the 'luxorious cars and vehicles' in which he traveled in the company of 'young girls' and the 'luxorious life' that he led were comparable to the 'precious horses' used by the Prophet Muhammad during his military campaigns. [7] These and other similar claims naturally earned Goharshahi considerable opposition from the Pakistani 'ulema. According to some sources, Goharshahi opposed the strict following of the shar'iah, arguing that it related only to the 'external' dimension, while 'true' religion, so he claimed, was solely of the heart and pertained to what he labeled as 'the love of God'. [8] He is said to have gone so far as to claim that key aspects of Islamic ritual practice, such as salat, zakat, saum and haj, were only of a temporary nature and did not have continuing relevance. [9] He claimed that the salience that Muslims gave to the external shari'ah was a principal cause of sectarianism and conflicts among them, owing to differences of opinion about and interpretation of rules of the shari'ah, as well as placing barriers between Muslims and others. Thus, in his Din-e Ilahi he argued that 'true' religion did not take cognizance of externals. He claimed to preach what he termed as a 'universal' religion in which all people, Muslims and others, could equally participate. Curiously, while critiquing the external shari'ah, on several occasions Goharshahi also argued to the contrary, and insisted that his teachings were entirely in consonance with Islam. [10] He announced that if his teachings could be proved to contain anything against the shari'ah he was prepared to face any sort of punishment. It is probable that this was merely a tactic to deflect criticism of the movement as un-Islamic and also to appeal to the essentially Muslim audience that Goharshahi was addressing. Based on his claim of having access to 'secret divine knowledge', Goharshahi is also said, by some critics, to have claimed that the existing Qur'an was not complete in itself. In his Kitab Haq ki Awaz he is said to have argued that the thirty existing parts (paras) of the Qur'an were meant for 'ordinary' mortals and pertained to 'external' or zahiri matters. However, he is said to have alleged, there were ten other paras of the holy scripture which were accessible only to the 'spiritual elite' (khawas), such as he claimed himself to be. This allegedly 'hidden' portion of the Qur'an, he is said to have written, pertained to what he called the batini aspects of faith, and he claimed to have full knowledge of these. [11] He is said to have gone to the extent of claiming that 'The batini and the zahiri Qur'an are in conflict with each other', and that hence there was no need for his followers to follow the rules of the external shari'ah. [12] Thus, for instance, he argued that there was no need for non-Muslims to recite or believe in the Islamic creed of confession (kailma shahadah), and that they could attain salvation by remaining in their own religions. [13] In fact, so a section of his followers claims, he went to the extent of declaring that all existing religions, including Islam, had lost their relevance and had merged into the new religion that he was expounding, which he called Din-e Ilahi ('The Religion of God'), which, he claimed, was based on love of God ('ishq-e ilahi) and contained all the good points in other religions. [14] More details about Goharshahi's absurd teachings are available in a tract produced by another Pakistani critic, the Deobandi Sunni scholar Ahmad Miyan Hamadi, in-charge of the Sindh provincial unit of the Majlis Tahaffuz-e Khatm-e Nabuvvat, an organization concerned particularly with rebutting groups that question the belief in the finality of the prophethood of the Prophet Muhammad. Hamadi quotes from Goharshahi's pamphlet Kitab Haq Ki Awaz, where he claimed that his teachings were not his own. Rather, Goharshahi wrote, they were provided to him by God and the Prophet Muhammad and he was commissioned by them to preach them. [15] One of Goharshahi's major claims was that God had allegedly provided miraculous signs to prove that he was His chosen one. In this regard, Hamadi refers to Goharshahi's claim that his own image had appeared in the moon, the sun, the black stone in the Ka'aba in Makkah (hijr-e aswad), in an unnamed Hindu temple in Pakistan and in several other such places, and points out that Goharshahi used this claim to argue that he had been divinely appointed to unite all the peoples of the world, irrespective of religion, and to preach to them a new religion, the Din-e Ilahi, which he claimed was meant for all of humanity. [16] To deny these images, Goharshahi announced, would be to defy God, for God, so he claimed, had arranged these to be displayed in order to glorify Goharshahi's name.[17] Goharshahi's grandiose claim that his image had appeared in several places, particularly in the hijr-e aswad, was carefully calculated to garner publicity for himself. In several letters to the Paksitani President, he insisted that the government investigate this claim if it were really true to Islam. To rebut his detractors, he claimed, without, of course, supplying any proof, that in 1998 the Imam of the Ka'aba had allegedly announced that he had seen a human image, which Goharshahi claimed was his own, in the hijr-e aswad, but that the Saudi rulers and Wahhabi 'ulema had quickly painted it over in order to conceal this image from the Muslim public. [18] This meant, Goharshahi announced, that Muslims visiting the Ka'aba for the Haj were unable to complete their pilgrimage, because, he wrote, 'Just as if one polishes one's nails, one's wuzu (ritual ablutions before prayer) is not complete, so, too, one's haj cannot be complete as the Saudi government has coated my image in the hijr-e aswad with paint'. He argued that kissing the hijr-e aswad was 'the most important item of Haj (sic.) ritual', but since the Saudis had allegedly covered it with a coat of paint, the pilgrims were unable to kiss the stone but were forced to kiss the paint instead, which was inadmissible. Hence, he went on, the Saudis were effectively 'responsible for making the Haj of millions of Muslims null and void'. [19] 'But', he added, 'since Allah wants to make this image clear, it cannot remain hidden for long'. The bizarre claim of his image being contained, among other things, in the hijr-e aswad soon emerged as the single most salient aspect of Goharshahi's message and certainly the most controversial. It appeared to have been carefully calculated to inflame Muslim passions and thereby attract attention for himself. In an article published shortly before he fled Pakistan, Goharshahi announced that his image was contained in the hijr-e aswad 'since eternity'. He claimed that the Prophet Muhammad had kissed the stone because 'the soul of the person whose image is in the stone [i.e. Goharshahi himself] and that of the Prophet Muhammad were together in the skies. When the Prophet came into this world, he saw this person's image and remembered that this person was he whom he had loved greatly […] The Prophet recognised this person by seeing his image and so kissed the stone'. [20] This absurd claim was to be later further magnified and elaborated upon by the MFI soon after Goharshahi's death or alleged 'occultation' in 2001, winning the cult widespread condemnation from Muslim groups in Pakistan and elsewhere. Another contentious issue that set Goharshahi against his Muslim critics was approval of the replacement of the phrase 'Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah" (muhammadur rasul allah) in the kalima shahadah or Islamic creed of confession of faith by his own name. This was a major point in the criminal case instituted against him in 1999 by Ahmad Miyan Hamadi, author of the above-mentioned booklet Fitna-e Goharshahi. The case was tried and decided by the Anti-Terrorism Court in Mirpurkhas in Sindh, but Goharshahi escaped punishment as he had already fled to England by the time the court announced its decision. [21] Goharshahi was also accused by Hamadi of claiming that a certain syllable used in several places in the Qur'an actually referred to him. [22] Splits in the Goharshahi Cult and the Formation of the MFI Following the death of Goharshahi in 2001, the cult that had developed around him split into several factions. Essentially, these splits had to do with contestations over leadership of the cult and rival claims to Goharshahi's legacy, although complex religious arguments were marshaled to back each position. The two major groups of Goharshahi's followers are today represented by the ASI and the MFI. The ASI has its headquarters in Kotri in the Dadu district of the Pakistani province of Sindh and has branches in several places in the country. [23] Among the top leadership of the group are several of Goharshahi's relatives, including his wife [24] and children [25], his father Syed Fazl Hussain [26], as well as some of Goharshahi's close disciples. [27] The ASI claims to be the true heir of Goharshahi's legacy, a claim which is hotly contested by the MFI. The ASI claims to be a Muslim Sufi group within the broader framework of Islam, a point that is constantly stressed in its literature. It argues that Goharshahi, too, firmly believed in Islam and that he insisted that going against the shari'ah is a sin for Muslims, although he also claimed that the tariqa or the Sufi path was necessary in order to complement it. [28] Those who violate the shari'ah, the ASI claims Goharshahi stressed, were not his true followers. [29] However, given the fact that several of Goharshahi's beliefs, particularly regarding the shari'ah as well as grandiose claims about himself, were seen as placing him outside the fold of Islam by his 'ulema detractors, the ASI's claim of being 'Muslim' is hotly contested by its Muslim opponents. Given the mounting opposition to the cult after Goharshahi's death, the ASI has perhaps sought to conceal some of the more bizarre or un-Islamic beliefs and teachings of Goharshahi in order to present itself as just another Muslim group. No sooner had Goharshahi died than his followers began contesting with each other, each claiming to represent his legacy. Ever since Goharshahi's death, fierce polemics have characterized the relations between the ASI and the MFI, the two main groups of Goharshahi's followers. Based in London, the MFI was set up soon after Goharshahi's death by Yunous al-Gohar, who styles himself as its 'Chief Executive Officer'. Yunous has been accused by the ASI of hijacking the official website of the movement after Goharshahi's death and using it to spread blasphemous and anti-Islamic beliefs which he wrongly attributes to Goharshahi. [30] It also accuses Yunous of being a 'hypocrite' [31] and an 'agent of the Jews' and of 'enemies of Islam and Pakistan' by deliberately seeking to distort Goharshahi's message. [32] It claims that Yunous' distortion of Goharshahi's teachings was motivated by 'his desire for wealth'. ASI leader and Goharshahi's father, Syed Fazl Hussain, sent a letter to the group's activists, warning them against Yunous, who, he said, was bent on sabotaging the group and who, he claimed, was 'in league with the Jews and was being paid by them'. [33] Of particular importance in the ongoing conflict between the ASI and the MFI are the contradictory stands of both groups on the issue of whether or not Goharshahi claimed to the Imam Mahdi. It is not clear if Goharshahi himself explicitly claimed to be the Imam Mahdi at any point. The ASI claims that Goharshahi himself denied being the Imam Mahdi and even said that those who believed him to be so were wrong. It sees Goharshahi as a Sufi murshid, and not as the Imam Mahdi. Goharshahi's father, Syed Fazl Hussain, claims that Goharshahi appeared to him in a vision and informed him that 'He had only indicated the signs of the Imam Mahdi, and that he was not the Imam Mahdi himself, although some foolish people had claimed him to be so'. [34] The MFI denies the ASI's claims and insists to the contrary. MFI sources offer muddled, confused and contradictory responses on the issue. The MFI argues that Goharshahi did claim to be the Imam Mahdi in 1997 before he fled to England [35] as well as in the Introduction to his main work, Din-e Ilahi. [36] Elsewhere, it argues that he kept this concealed but arranged for certain 'enlightened souls', by which is obviously meant the MFI's leaders, to 'automatically recognize him as the Imam Mahdi' without his having to publicly declare this as such [37]. Elsewhere it claims that Goharshahi 'revealed' the 'fact' of his being the Imam Mahdi only to a select few, including, and particularly, Yunous al-Gohar. [38] Yunous claims that he was close to Goharshahi and knew many of his 'secrets', including that 'according to the Divine plan, Goharshahi did not publicly announce that he was the Imam Mahdi', and adds that in 1999 Goharshahi had said, after claiming to see his image in the sun, the moon and the hijr-e aswad, that he might be the Imam Mahdi. Goharshahi said, so Yunous claims, that he could be sure of this only when 'the saints testify to this'. Yunous argues that although Goharshahi did not publicly claim to be the Imam Mahdi, 'his images that appeared in all religious places, including mosques, churches and temples' were a divine way of informing 'enlightened beings' that he was indeed the Imam Mahdi, and that he had come as the saviour promised by all religions. He claims that Goharshahi had informed him that 'owing to some reason' he did not openly preach that he was the Imam Mahdi, but had, instead, appointed Yunous and his followers to do so, 'in order to test their faith'. [39] Yunous insists that by denying that Goharshahi was the Imam Mahdi, the followers of the ASI are 'heretics', 'hypocrites', 'frauds', 'enemies of Goharshahi', 'worshippers of Satan' [40] and 'bastards' [41]. In addition, the MFI announces that because the ASI does not accept Goharshahi as the Imam Mahdi, it 'will announce war and jihad against it'. [42] The MFI: Beliefs and Claims The MFI has its headquarters in London. Its name has been probably deliberately chosen so as to give it a larger than life image, as a respectable 'international' organisation, rather than the bizarre cult that it actually is. Yunous al-Gohar, who styles himself as the outfit's 'Chief Executive Officer', is said to be a London-based billionaire and hypnotist of Pakistani origin. He claims to have been specially selected by Goharshahi to carry on his mission as his deputy and to be in constant touch with him. He argues that Goharshahi is omnipresent, although in communication only with him [43], and that he will again reveal himself in his physical form in London, shortly before a grand apocalyptic battle that he will wage, along with Jesus, against the Dajjal or Anti-Christ that will herald the Day of Judgment. He claims that in December 2001, Goharshahi 'transferred all his light' into him. After this, Yunous claims to have 'flown to the grand castle of Ra Riyaz Goharshahi'. [44] Several of the MFI's bizarre beliefs, such as the claim that Goharshahi is God, that Yunous is the only person he is in communication with and that those who do not believe in or oppose Goharshahi or doubt his claims are in league with the Devil and are 'dogs of Hell' [45], are, so Yunous claims, said to have been 'revealed' to him by Goharshahi after his alleged 'occultation' in 2001. The MFI operates through a number of fronts. Its main vehicle for disseminating its propaganda is the Internet. In order to create the impression that it is much larger than it actually is, Yunous and his followers, almost all Pakistanis based in England and America, run numerous sophisticated websites with different names, although these contain much the same material. [46] These are in several languages, including Arabic, Urdu, Hindi, English and French. The MFI also hosts an online radio station. It has sponsored advertisements in numerous popular newspapers in different languages in various countries, including India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Australia, Hong Kong, Canada and Britain, announcing its claim of Goharshahi being the Imam Mahdi and inviting those who want to know more to contact the group through its websites. [47] In these advertisements, it presents its claims about Goharshahi in the guise of being an apparently benign, spiritual and apolitical inter-faith group, which, it claims, is committed to peace, harmony and love of God and of humanity. The MFI claims to have several hundred thousand followers in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Europe, North America, and South-East Asia, although these numbers are probably grossly exaggerated. In these countries it has its representatives who work as missionaries, distributing MFI literature and organizing public events. These programmes are presented as get-togethers to promote 'divine love' and 'peace' but are actually means for the cult to propagate its bizarre beliefs. The MFI has also participated in some programmes organized by inter-faith groups in order to present itself as motivated by universal love, a claim that is completely belied by its claims and its politics, as we shall see later in the course of this paper. Key Teachings of the MFI Yunous' critics in the ASI have accused him of deliberately distorting the teachings of Goharshahi and of attributing to him beliefs and statements which they say were not his. They claim that Yunous has done this deliberately in order to sabotage the movement. Yunous, on the other hand, defends his stance, saying that what he preaches is precisely what Goharshahi taught his disciples and also what Goharshahi secretly continues to 'reveal' to him while in 'occultation'. He insists that he says nothing on his own. [48] He claims that he has been in 'external' (zahiri) and 'esoteric' (batini) closeness with Goharshahi for over two decades [49], and that he has privileged access to him as his 'representative' in his supposed phase of 'occultation'. He claims that in addition to the 'external' knowledge that Goharshahi imparted his disciples, as contained in his book Din-e Ilahi [50], he is privy to 'secret' knowledge (batini 'ilm) which he says Goharshahi provides to him and other 'special' (khawas) people in the MFI. Referring to the ASI, he says that this group limits itself only to 'external' knowledge and hence has 'gone astray'. Yunous argues, referring to himself, that those who also have access to the 'secret' knowledge from Goharshahi 'are on the right path'. [51]He claims that the knowledge imparted in the Din-e Ilahi represents the 'secret knowledge' that the Prophet Muhammad transmitted to Imam 'Ali. This knowledge, he claims, had been kept a closely guarded secret all this while but the Prophet had, so he wrote, given it to Goharshahi, who, in turn, had 'opened' it for all to access easily by simply reciting his name. In other words, he claims, the batini 'ilm of the Prophet Muhammad was the zahiri 'ilm of Goharshahi, implying that the batini 'ilm that he claims Goharshahi possessed was superior to the batini 'ilm of the Prophet as well as the zahiri 'ilm that the Prophet imparted through the Qur'an. Goharshahi, the MFI proclaims, is privy to that 'secret' knowledge that 'the Prophet Muhammad wanted but was denied'. [52] Going even further, the MFI claims that the 'secret knowledge' that Goharshahi possesses is not from God but from his own self, suggesting, thereby, the argument of Goharshahi's alleged superiority to God. [53] In contrast to the ASI, which believes that Goharshahi is dead, the MFI, as mentioned earlier, believes that he is alive and physically present in the world, being allegedly 'immortal' [54], although concealed from everyone except his 'chosen' followers, i.e. members, particularly leaders, of the MFI, especially Yunous al-Gohar. The 'concealment' of Goharshahi is said to be 'an unparalleled miracle', which will 'drown the entire world in amazement', causing 'all souls to believe in him'. [55] In this alleged period of 'concealment', Goharshahi is said to commune with Yunous in person and sometimes, so Yunous claims, even appears before him. The MFI believes that Goharshahi's alleged occultation is actually a test for his 'true' believers, who, in this period, might have to suffer persecution while proclaiming his 'impending arrival'. These 'true believers' are assured that if they faithfully carry on the work of 'proclaiming the Imam Mahdi', 'all their sins will be washed away'. [56] In this test, the MFI insists, the ASI and its followers have miserably failed, proving themselves to be 'hypocrites' and engaged in 'a Satanic conspiracy' to distort Goharshahi's teachings, as they claim that Goharshahi is dead and conceal or deny the claim of his being the Imam Mahdi. [57] The single most salient feature of MFI propaganda, which is constantly repeated in all its literature and on the websites that it runs or sponsors, is that Goharshahi is the Imam Mahdi of the Muslims, as well as the Promised Messiah of the Christians and Jews, the final Buddha of the Buddhists and the Kalki Avatar of the Hindus. [58] The MFI claims that the Christian and Jewish belief that the Messiah would rule the world has been fulfilled in Goharshahi's alleged establishment of his 'global spiritual dominion'. As for the Hindu belief that the Kalki Avatar would make all people Hindu, the MFI claims that this, too, has been fulfilled by Goharshahi in that he will allegedly make all humans 'devotees of someone connected to the Indian subcontinent', that is, himself.[59] 'To preach about the Imam Mahdi', in the form of Goharshahi, Yunous writes, is 'the basic aim' of the movement. 'We will carry on preaching about the Imam Mahdi', he announces, 'even if we have to wage war against others'. [60] For this purpose, although MFI leaders insist that the group is not Muslim, and that, instead, it preaches a new religion, what they call 'the Goharian Philosophy of Divine Love', the MFI frequently refers to Islamic scriptural resources but misinterprets them to put forward its bizarre claims about Goharshahi. Thus, the MFI insists that its teachings are 'based on the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad' [61], but it uses this argument to arrive at conclusions which Muslims will find completely opposed to Islam. This is a central theme in MFI propaganda, and geared essentially to appear innocuous and more acceptable to a largely Muslim audience, [62] or else, in several cases, to deliberately provoke Muslim anger and thereby perhaps win the support of anti-Muslim and anti-Islamic forces, particularly in the West. The MFI makes numerous absurd claims related to the Prophet Muhammad in order to press its argument that the Prophet had allegedly predicted the arrival of Goharshahi as the Imam Mahdi. Thus, it claims that the Prophet Muhammad had predicted that the Imam Mahdi would 'look exactly like him' and says that this holds true in the case of Goharshahi. [63] It claims that the Prophet Muhammad 'transferred all his knowledge to Goharshahi'. [64] It claims that the Muslim belief that near the Last Day, the sun will rise from the West is actually a reference to Goharshahi, whom it identifies with the 'sun'. The 'West' here refers, the MFI claims, to the city of London, where Goharshahi stayed for some years, and where the MFI believes he will 'reappear' after his period of 'occultation' is over in order to herald the end of the world. Referring to the Muslim belief that the Imam Mahdi would 'distribute the treasures of the Ka'aba', the MFI claims that this is an allegorical reference that has been fulfilled by Goharshahi's alleged distribution of 'the spiritual food for all human beings in the form of love of God ('ishq-e ilahi)'. [65] It claims that in accordance with a prophecy that Imam Jafar Sadiq is said to have made, Goharshahi has the 'seal of Mahdihood' (mehr-e mahdaviyyat) and the kalima shahada inscribed on his body. It refers to what it calls a hadith and claims that the Prophet Muhammad prophesied that the Imam Mahdi would appear in Makkah between the rukn yamani and the maqam-e ibrahim, and says this is fulfilled in the alleged appearance of Goharshahi's image in the hijr-e aswad. It claims that all the prophets, from Adam to Muhammad, deeply revered the hijr-e aswad because it allegedly contains the picture of Goharshahi. It even argues that 'from the very first day, every being, including every prophet, has prostrated before the supposed image of Goharshahi in the hijr-e aswad'. [66] It refers to what it claims is a hadith report, according to which the Prophet kissed the hijr-e aswad and wept, and says that this was because he allegedly saw Goharshahi's image in it. It claims that Imam 'Ali informed Hazrat 'Umar that the hijr-e aswad was not just a stone, but, rather, had a pair of eyes, ears and a tongue and that it would intercede for those who kiss it on the Day of Judgment. It argues that this means that the hijr-e aswad has a human image in it and that this is that of Goharshahi. [67] In what is perhaps a deliberately designed claim to infuriate Muslims, the MFI argues that, in addition to Goharshahi, images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary and the Hindu goddess Durga have also appeared in the hijr-e aswad. [68] Hence, the MFI argues, it ought to be accessible to all peoples, and not just Muslims, as at present. Because it claims that the hijr-e aswad contains an image of Goharshahi, and since it argues that Goharshahi is meant for all humankind, it claims that allowing only Muslims to visit the shrine is 'unfair' and that this rule must be changed at once.[69] It claims that Adam brought this stone from heaven 'for the sake of the blessing and intercession of all human beings'. Hence, this stone, presented as the 'first place of worship in the world', was allegedly revered by all communities. 'Ever since it came under the control of the Muslims', the MFI says, 'other peoples have been forbidden to kiss it'. It argues that the MFI is the 'rightful owner' of the hijr-e aswad and claims that Goharshahi will 'soon snatch it back' from the Saudi rulers after deposing them and make it accessible to all human beings, not just Muslims, so that everyone can 'kiss the stone that contains the picture of Goharshahi'. [70] The MFI claims that in addition to the hijr-e aswad, the image of Goharshahi has appeared in a large number of places, including the moon, the sun and numerous stars, as well as churches, mosques, imambarghas and temples. This, it says, shows that Goharshahi is meant for all peoples of the world, transcending boundaries of religion. Its propaganda material contains numerous photographs of these objects, with claims alongside that the image of Goharshahi is visible therein. However, to an unbiased observer, these images are, of course, not apparent at all. According to the MFI, the word mahdi actually means 'man of the moon' (chand wala). Hence, it argues, the supposed image of Goharshahi on the moon is 'proof' of him being the Imam Mahdi. It claims that Imam Ja'far Sadiq had allegedly prophesied that the Imam Mahdi's face would appear on the moon and argues that this face is that of Goharshahi. [71] It claims that the medieval Jewish scholar, Nostradamus, had predicted the arrival of 'the main of the moon', who would 'spiritually revolutionise the world', and states that this figure is none other than Goharshahi. Using this argument of Goharshahi's image being allegedly visible in the moon, MFI propaganda material repeatedly makes grandiose claims on behalf of Goharshahi that clearly sets the group outside the fold of Islam. The MFI exhorts people to gaze upon the supposed image and then utter the word 'Allah' thrice for seven days, whereupon they are told that the image would 'enter their hearts' and that they would acquire a particular 'meditation chant of the heart' (zikr-e qalb) from Goharshahi himself, reciting which they can attain 'salvation'. This easy path to 'salvation' is said to be open to all people, irrespective of religion. According to the MFI, prayers to the supposed image of Goharshahi in the moon can be made in any language, for, it claims, he can understand all languages. This image, if beseeched, the MFI claims, can cure all ills. [72] Indeed, so 'great' is Goharshahi, the MFI claims, that the size of his 'hidden' (batini) face is 150 times that of the sun. [73] The MFI even claims, of course without any reference or proof, that NASA scientists in America have attested to this and to have declared that his image is 'suspended in the space'.[74] 'The whole of humanity', it announces, 'will look up to him as the world approaches its end. His teachings shall be honoured and adopted by all human beings open-heartedly'. 'One day', so it claims Goharshahi had declared, 'all souls will bow down before me and accept me as the Imam Mahdi', adding, 'If they refuse to do so, God will force them to recognize me as such'. [75] 'Every soul, accepting the greatness of Goharshahi, will prostrate before him', the MFI insists. [76] 'As humanity awakens', Yunous writes in clumsy English in an article hosted on the MFI's official website, 'every nation will claim "Gohar is ours". True saviour of humankind is the one who turn (sic.) the (sic.) humanity into Divinity. And that is Gohar Shahi. Gohar Shahi is already turning humanity into Divinity. No wonder he is the Promised Messiah, Awaited Mehdi and Predicted Kalki Avatar. Yunous says so. Prophets came for nations, saints for groups, but Gohar is for all humanity'. Equally bizarre is the MFI's claim that the 'soul of Muhammad' had entered Goharshahi's body. Hence, it argues, if one prays for blessings on the Prophet (durud) and utters the phrase ya muhammad, the prayer 'collides against the body of Goharshahi and changes into ya gohar 'automatically'. Likewise in the case of prayers and supplications to God. If someone does zikr of God or the Prophet Muhammad, that prayer relates only to God or the Prophet, the MFI argues. But because the MFI claims that Goharshahi is above even the Prophet Muhammad and God, zikr of Goharshahi, it says, includes the zikr of God and Muhammad as well. The implication, therefore, is that one need not do the zikr of God and Muhammad, and that the zikr of Goharshahi is sufficient. [77] By simply chanting the phrase ya gohar, the MFI says, Goharshahi will provide people assistance. [78] Accordingly, those who 'turn away from' the zikr of Goharshahi are warned that God would turn away from them, too. [79] Hence, the MFI argues, 'there is no greater worship that the glimpse of Goharshahi' and 'prostrating before him'. [80] The MFI presents Goharshahi as having supposedly 'renewed' all other religions, including Islam, and to have caused them all to merge into a 'universal faith', the Din-e Ilahi, which it terms as 'a brand new religion'. [81] This faith, Yunous says, is 'superior' to all other religions, including Islam. [82] While in the past this religion was accessible only to a select few, who had to undertake stern austerities for this, Goharshahi is said to have made it easily accessible to everyone, irrespective of religion, who believes in him. One can now reach God, the MFI insists, only through Goharshahi's Din-e Ilahi. All other religions, including Islam, so it claims, have now become 'useless', having degenerated into sources of 'strife' because, among other reasons, of their alleged excessive concern with external rituals. [83] Accordingly, Muslims as well as others who refuse to accept Goharshahi as the Imam Mahdi are said to possess 'devilish souls' and to be 'hypocrites, like the assassins of Imam Hussain'. [84] They are accused of opposing the very religions that they claim to follow, because, the MFI claims, all the religions of the world have prophesied Goharshahi's arrival as the messiah. [85] In some places, the MFI writes that the religion that Goharshahi preached was 'given by God', whereas other religions are described as having been made by 'prophets who were mere mortals'. [86] Goharshahi's religion is described as the 'religion of the soul', because of which, it is stressed, there is no need to follow the shari'ah and external forms of worship, the argument being that these allegedly relate only to the body while 'true 'religion pertains only to the soul. [87] It is argued that prior to Goharshahi, the religions taught by the various prophets to most of their followers pertained only to the 'body' and to the external rules of shari'ah. The 'true religion of love' that is said to 'transcend' the sharia'h was taught by them to only a very few select followers. However, now, it is claimed, Goharshahi had made this 'true religion' of Din-e Ilahi accessible to all, irrespective of religion. Goharshahi is described as being allegedly unique in this regard, for no prophet or saint is said to have provided access to the 'love of God' to all of humanity, they being said to have been sent only to a particular community. [88] In contrast to the Islamic understanding that the Prophet Muhammad was sent for all of humankind, the MFI believes that this position was granted to Goharshahi alone. In thus 'uniting' all of humanity into one 'universal ummah', the MFI says, Goharshahi has allegedly caused 'all other ummahs to be finished'. [89] Falsely claiming that the Prophet Muhammad 'shed tears in the hope of getting a glimpse' of Goharshahi, Yunous insists 'our guide is not Muhammad' but Goharshahi. [90] He even goes to the extent of writing that the Muslim saints who attained help from God 'did not get this through Islam but, rather, through learning the Din-e Ilahi of Goharshahi. [91] Significantly, Yunous explicitly states that he and his followers are not Muslims, but, instead, what he calls 'Goharians'. He claims that Goharshah, too, never followed Islam, and critiques the ASI for claiming the contrary. [92] Yunous claims that the 'final limit' of Islam taught by the Prophet Muhammad is 'love for God'(muhabbat- e ilahi), which, he says, is 'the beginning' of Goharshahi's Din-e Ilahi, whose 'limit' is 'passion for God' ('ishq-e ilahi), which is said to be 'much higher than muhabbat-e ilahi'. Hence, he says, Goharshahi's religion is superior to Islam. Islam, he says, 'is limited by the kalima of Muhammad', while Goharshahi's Din-e Ilahi 'has no limitation of a prophet but is universal, so that all people, irrespective of religion, can gain spiritual merit from Goharshahi'. In this way, he says, 'the superiority of Islam has ended'. [93] He argues that Goharshahi claimed that 'the verses of the Quran have been abrogated'. [94] He announces that Islam was meant only for Muslims, and that because, so he alleges, it has 'lost its spiritualism' and has 'been reduced by the 'ulema to the shari'ah', it has 'lost its relevance', being now supposedly used to promote conflict and hatred. Hence, he says, Goharshahi's 'new religion of Din-e Ilahi' has 'put an end to Islam' [95] Again marshalling Islamic scripturalist resources for what critics would argue is an un-Islamic purpose, Yunous claims that Prophetic traditions that allegedly talk about the sudden disappearance of the Imam Mahdi and then the return of Jesus Christ and his joining forces with the Imam Mahdi to kill the Dajjal and establish the rule of God throughout the world are being fulfilled through the person of Goharshahi. Thus, he claims that Jesus came to meet Goharshahi first in London in 1997[96] and then later in the same year in a hotel in the town of Taus, in New Mexico, in the United States. [97] Meanwhile, he writes, Jesus is now somewhere in Sri Lanka, while Goharshahi, although physically present in the world, is concealed from others, save for his closest companions, whose leader Yunous presents himself as. In the period of the 'occultation' of Goharshahi, Yunous says, the 'foremost worship' would be to 'wait for the Mahdi' (muntazir-e mahdi). Hence, he insists, those, such as members of the ASI, who believe that Goharshahi is dead, have actually reneged on their faith, while the MFI's followers, awaiting his 're-appearance', are walking faithfully on his path, for which they are told that they would earn a place in heaven. [98] Goharshahi's Stature in MFI Propaganda The MFI's claims about the spiritual stature of Goharshahi goes far beyond what the ASI claims for him. While the ASI accuses the MFI of deliberately distorting Goharshahi's teachings and of claiming a stature for him which they say he himself did not claim, the MFI insists that it strictly abides by what Goharshahi preached to his followers, as well as what he is said to have 'revealed' to a small select group of his disciples before his 'occultation' and what he is said to continue 'revealing' to Yunous after that. The stature of Goharshahi, the MFI claims, is far superior to that of the saints. [99] Yunous writes that Shaikh 'Abdul Qadir Jilani, founder of the Qadriya Sufi order, had predicted to his disciples that Goharshahi would appear as the Imam Mahdi and that 'only he would rule the entire universe'. Hence, he adds, the Qadriya order, as well as all other Sufi orders, have been 'absorbed' into the Din-e Ilahi of Goharshahi. Consequently, he announces, 'Till the Day of Judgment, the spiritual benefits of the names of God can be had only from Goharshahi'. [100] This means, he elaborates, that Goharshahi is 'the last of the saints', and even that 'all the prophets have transferred the spiritual benefit that they provided their followers with to him'. [101] Yunous also argues that Goharshahi is superior to all the prophets. [102] He claims that till now the various prophets of God 'have taught only two of the twenty-seven letters of knowledge' and that Goharshahi would teach the rest twenty-five. [103] He claims that Goharshahi alone 'is able to awaken a evil doer's soul by just one look at him', and says that this is a miracle that none of the prophets was able to perform. [104] He describes Goharshahi as the 'spiritual master' (pir) of the prophets. [105] Because, according to a Prophetic tradition, Jesus would give the oath of allegiance (bai'ah) to the Imam Mahdi, Goharshahi is claimed as the 'guide of the prophets' (nabiyon ka pir). [106] A picture hosted on the MFI's website depicts Jesus touching Goharshahi's feet. [107] Because, allegedly, Jesus would come back to the world to 'have a glimpse' of Goharshahi [108] and to take him, and not the Prophet Muhammad, as his guide, Goharshahi is, it is sought to be implied, 'superior' even to the Prophet. [109] This claim is further advanced in Yunous' announcement that Goharshahi is allegedly 'assisted by numerous prophets', including the Prophet Muhammad and Jesus.[110] 30 Furthermore, Yunous claims that the Prophet Muhammad kissed the hijr-e aswad and wept because therein he allegedly saw the image of Goharshahi and was overwhelmed with 'his love and faith in him', thus implying the claim of Goharshahi's superiority over him. [111] Yunous claims that the Prophet Muhammad represents the zahir or 'external' aspect of God, while Goharshahi represents His batin or real, hidden self, and writes that God refused to let the Prophet see this self despite his desire to. In contrast to the Prophet, Yunous claims that Goharshahi is 'immortal' (la fani). [112] In short, then, the MFI portrays Gohar Shahi as a super-divine figure superior even to the Prophet Muhammad. Not stopping at claiming Goharshahi's superiority to the prophets, the MFI goes so far as to claim that Goharshahi is superior even to God. Goharshahi, announces an issue of the Hatif-e Mehdi, the MFI's Urdu-cum-English tabloid, is, in fact, God himself. 'La Ilaha il Al Gohar' ('There is no god but Gohar') its cover page proclaims. MFI members are asked to recite this phrase as part of their daily zikr, [113] and it is claimed that this phrase also appears on the sun. [114] Goharshahi, announces one of the several MFI-sponsored websites, is 'Lord of the Lords' and 'The Emperor of all the Worlds' (malik ul-muluk). [115]Yunous announces this claim of Goharshahi being above God when he says 'I am a slave of Riaz [Goharshahi]. I swear by the Mahdi! I don't know anyone—neither Allah nor the Prophet of Allah—except for Ra Riyaz Goharshahi'. [116] He further insists, 'My God is Riaz Ahmad Goharshahi' [117]. Goharshahi is said to be 'The Master of Everything' (maula-e kul), [118] the 'ruler of the whole world', [119] and 'creator of all beings'. [120] Accordingly, in place of Khuda Hafiz or Allah Hafiz, the standard South Asian Muslim way of saying farewell, MFI activists use the phrase Gohar Hafiz. Similarly, Inshallah ('God willing') is replaced by Insha Gohar, and the place of the Qur'an is taken by Goharshahi's tract Din-e Ilahi. [121] Those who have the picture of Goharshahi in their hearts', Yunous writes, 'have a much higher spiritual status than those whose hearts are drawn to Allah'. [122] Further illustrating the MFI's belief in Goharshahi being superior even to God, Yunous writes that the aim of the 'esoteric knowledge' imparted by Goharshahi is to 'attain a being (zat) beyond even Allah', whom he identifies as none other than Goharshahi himself, and who, he says, resides in the highest form of paradise which he names as riyaz ul-jannah. Allah, or God, Yunous suggests, is subordinate to Goharshahi. Because God has a religion (din)—love ('ishq)—He must, Yunous argues, 'have a deity whom he worships' (ma'bud). Since one of Allah's names is mu'min or 'believer', he claims that this implies that God 'must have faith in some other being'. This 'being', Yunous implies, is none other than Goharshahi, whose religion he describes as 'being the treasure of all esoteric knowledge'. [123] Further elaborating on what he claims is Goharshahi's exalted spiritual stature, Yunous writes that 'the path of Allah' can 'lead one at most to the vision of God', but 'God will not let one sit next to Him but will, instead, send him to some heaven or the other'. In contrast, he says, following 'the path of Goharshahi', one will be taken by Goharshahi to the 'highest heaven' where he 'resides'—riaz al-jannah—where one will get 'eternal closeness to Goharshahi'. This, however, can only happen when 'one worships no one but Goharshahi'. [124] Those who have been provided 'secret knowledge' by Goharshahi, Yunous claims in an obvious reference to himself and his coterie, will enter this paradise. [125] This supposed 'secret knowledge', Yunous says, was not given to the Prophet Muhammad but Goharshahi had given it to Yunous. [126] In MFI propaganda, God is described in crude anthropomorphic terms. He is said to 'look like Adam' and to be similar to a 'virgin youth, a handsome boy, like a seventeen years (sic.) youth'. He is said to 'walk on two legs' and to have 'for his companionship, beautiful females to make him happy'. God is thus presented as a mere physical being, and is sought to be contrasted with Goharshahi, who is described as 'the Grand God', and who, so it is claimed, 'created God'. Accordingly, Goharshahi is said to be 'the only spiritual personality who not only directed people towards God […], but He rather (sic.) opened doors (sic.) to human intellect to quench its thirst to know what is beyond God'. Further, this alleged 'Grand God' or 'Lord of Lords', Goharshahi himself, is said to have 'created 35 million God-like figures', and God or Allah is said to be 'just one of them'. [127] Goharshahi is described in such a manner as to clearly suggest his proclaimed 'superiority' over God in even physical terms. He is said to have 'innumerable model bodies which can be seen at the same time all over the world'. [128] He is said to be 'present in all the worlds'. 'The prayers of all worshippers pass through him' and he can 'deny the prayers of anyone that he wants', Yunous claims. [129] Arguing the 'superiority' of Goharshahi over God, Yunous claims that 'there are innumerable worlds beyond Allah', and that is why, he says, 'we have left the path of Allah and adopted that of Goharshahi'. [130] Since Goharshahi is presented as a super-divine figure, it follows from this that the MFI believes that those who do not believe in him or oppose him are destined to doom in hell. Likewise, it is argued that salvation is possible through Goharshahi alone, because, the MFI claims, 'all other religions have lost their value'. [131] It is striking how while making this claim on behalf of Goharshahi, the MFI also claims to be committed to universal harmony and spirituality that transcends religious barriers, although both claims are obviously irreconcilable. MFI propaganda material is replete with claims that Goharshahi did not preach any religion and that he is for all humankind, irrespective of religion, pointing the way to God. This claim of Goharshahi's message of 'spiritualism' that transcends religion being for people of all religions is obviously hollow rhetoric, because, at the same time, the MFI announces that the only way to salvation is through Goharshahi and none other. [132] Likewise, the claim that Goharshahi leads the way to God is also fallacious given the fact that Yunous describes Goharshahi as 'superior' to God. Clearly, these claims are meant only for public consumption and are a rhetorical device to conceal the MFI's bizarre beliefs. MFI's Missionary Work Among Non-Muslims Given its brazenly anti-Islamic teachings, it is hardly surprising that the MFI has met with stiff opposition from Muslim circles, although several of its activists are of Pakistani Muslim background. Seeking to conceal the real reason for Muslim opposition to the cult, the MFI projects this opposition as a reflection of what it calls its 'broadened (sic.) approach and universal peace-loving teachings'. [133] Of late, particularly since early 2006, the MFI seems to have begun deliberately seeking to cultivate support among non-Muslims, particularly Hindus and Sikhs as well as Pakistani Christians, opening it to the charge of playing on the latent anti-Muslim prejudices among sections of these communities. Accordingly, in recent years MFI activists have organized numerous programmes in Pakistan under the banner of two letterhead outfits—'Welcome Jesus International' and the 'Interfaith Spiritual Movement'—aiming at winning the support of local Christians for its claims about Jesus and the Imam Mahdi and for its stance on what it calls 'Islamist extremism'. [134] It has also organized numerous missionary programmes among Hindus in Sindh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh and Hindus and Sikhs in America, Australia and Thailand. [135] Several of these programmes have been held in temples and gurudwara premises and the MFI has sought to win over Hindu and Sikh priests to its cause. The programmes inevitably seek to convey the same message: that Goharshahi is the Kalki Avatar of the Hindus and that the hijr-e aswad is actually a phallic object (ling) associated with the Hindu deity Shiva, whom it identifies as Adam, and who, it says, brought the stone down to earth from heaven. In order to endear itself to Hindus, it claims that the image of the Hindu goddess Durga has also appeared in the hijr-e aswad [136]along with that of Goharshahi, and exhorts Hindus to join it in its demand that Hindus, as well as other non-Muslims, be allowed to enter Makkah. It appeals to Hindus to gaze at the supposed image of Goharshahi in the moon, and they are told that by taking his name all their problems can be solved. [137] The MFI has also floated a outfit called the Kalki Avatar Foundation to work among Hindus. Despite its bombastic-sounding name, the outfit is probably just a letterhead organization, working as a front of the MFI. Is the MFI 'Muslim' in Any Sense? The answer to this question is, of course, an explicit 'no', as the above outline of the basic beliefs of the MFI makes amply clear. In fact, Yunous has explicitly claimed on numerous occasions that he and his followers are not Muslims and that the religion that they propagate is not Islam. However, it is important to note that on some other occasions Yunous and the MFI have claimed that their group is 'Muslim' in a sense [138] and have even announced that if anything in what they teach is found against the Qur'an, they are willing to accept any punishment. This, of course, must be seen simply as a propaganda gimmick, geared essentially to win more prospective converts and also the favour or attention of Muslim leaders to whom the MFI has dispatched numerous letters, seeking their support in proclaiming Goharshahi as the Imam Mahdi, as we shall see further in the course of this paper. Violence in Pakistan and Accusations of MFI involvement Given its brazenly anti-Islamic beliefs, the MFI has naturally faced considerable opposition in Pakistan from Muslim religious groups as well as from the police, resulting in the arrest of several of its activists. The MFI claims that these activists have been 'wrongly' and 'falsely' accused of blasphemy, but a perusal of the tenets of the group clearly marks them out as blasphemous from the Islamic point of view. It appears that the MFI relishes controversy as a means to win public attention, making bizarre claims for Goharshahi that seem to be deliberately calculated to win the opposition of Islamic groups, on the one hand, and the sympathy of the West as well as certain forces inimical to Islam, on the other. MFI activists have been involved in pasting posters on the walls of Pakistani towns with the provocative claim that 'There is no God but Riyaz Ahmad Goharshahi', which caused Islamist groups as well as 'ulema organizations to demand that if the government did not stop this they would take the law into their own hands. These groups described this as a conspiracy to divide Muslims, and denounced the cult's leaders and activists as kafirs and as traducers of the Prophet, appealing to people to boycott the cult and to the government to ban it. [139] In response, the MFI declared that it would not 'sit back' and that it would 'retaliate' against a range of Islamic groups, whom it branded as 'Satanic'. It even threatened that this might lead Pakistan to civil war. [140] From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 2 19:14:38 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 06:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <441128.95221.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Gargi You presume my youth. I am not one. You presume I had anything to do with "stopping of Jashn-e-azadi". I did not. I have no means either of stopping it. I am not part of any "strategy" either. Gargi, does criticising/attacking a film that would otherwise have been ignored, give it publicity and arouse interest in it? Yes most times and perhaps every time. But, not all situations analogously and automatically lend themselves to that maxim being valid as the sole reason. Sanjay Kak's film had it's scheduled screenings before the "stop screening" incidents of Mumbai and Delhi. The audiences comprised of some very well known personalities and a good number of "activists" They were there not because some Kashmiri Pandits wanted the screenings stopped. That came in the future. Even after that the film had it's screenings. Let's flashback to the making of the film. One has to be fairly well informed on the situation in Kashmir and the "go" areas, the "no go" areas for an ordinary film-maker and only then will one appreciate that only a fool would accept Sanjay Kak's declarations of the "acceptances" he received by venturing into Kashmir without an agenda. As you possibly know Gargi, in the film there is a preponderance of "found footage" used by SK for his narratives, imageries and motifs. "Found footage" could hardly be pre-scripted in a film that purports to be Sanjay Kak's journey of discovering the Kashmiri in himself. Would it be unfair to presume that the "found footage" was delivered to him? Is it difficult to profile those who made the "deliveries" of the "found footage"? Gargi, whether it is the "celebrity" and "activists" audiences, or the serendipity of "found footage" you can map out the networking. Membership of the 'group' that participates in various "sit-downs" or a blatantly dishonest translation for a Legal Testimony, they all fit in. No puny bunch (that you grouped together) and certainly not me can make a dent into that "club". The visibles are only a part, they have the support of the "whats this nonsense about a Nation" voices, some of the voices being very pervasive and influential. Then there is in their corner the Media (mostly English) who get their bread and generous dollops of butter from the Nation, but will not hesitate to undermine that very Nation and support (directly or indirectly) those who attack the Nation by word or act. Gargi, perhaps you do understand the pain but you connot come anywhere close to feeling it. You are from a refugee family. You would feel the pain if you yourself were a displaced refugee. Even for your Grandparents, the displacement perhaps took them into environments that mirrored in very many ways (language, food, song, seasons) the lands they had to leave. Perhaps I said. To understand how dissimilar the displacement of the Kashmiri Pandits has been you will need to know a lot more about Kashmir and the rest of the country. If you did, you would not take for-granted analogy. You are not to be blamed, most Indians have a very limited understanding. Unfortunately all that some of them want to recognise is the "Hindu" connection with Kashmiri Pandits and that is a trite one. One has not missed how after talking about "pain" you trivialised the issue by your suggestions linked with "Komal Gandhar" or talking about "strategy". It is easy and "painless" for you to indulge in intellectual jugglery Incidentally, the Maharajah of Kashmir had a "standstill" agreement with Pakistan and never acceded to it. Gargi, wish you well in your avowed "cause - that of showing and screening all films to everybody." Would you do it, to use an extreme example, for a pornographic film? I do not think so. "All films to everybody" ???? Perhaps you would. Perhaps you would set limits to "freedoms" Ultimately it boils down to perspectives and sensibilities. To, what you treasure, what you rue. To, what you value. For me, there is a conscious recognition of what nurtured in me and in other ways allowed me to be the person I am. I value that. I will not look kindly upon anyone to seeks to undermine or destroy that, whether by word, act or film. Kshmendra Kaul Gargi Sen wrote: Hello everyone, I am a self-confessed lurker on this list. Till date I have only read postings and followed a few debates. But the recent spate of mails had a stunning effect - to paraphrase Shuddha ­ and stunned even me out of the zone of silence into speech. And as I spent most of the night in reading the incredible number of recent mails, I may as well stay up and write. And despite the circumstances, I am happy to become visible, albeit virtually. This mail though is addressed to 5 young men called Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul. And my apologies to the rest of the list for length of the mail. Gargi Dear Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul, You know you are probably going about it ­ it being the stopping of Jashn-e-azadi - all wrong. You probably do know that the more you Œtalk¹ about a film/ book/ art/ food anything, the more you spread an interest about it. Any talk of Œbanning¹ send interests zooming sky high. And to point to Œuncensored¹ you hit bulls eye. Really. The best course probably might have been to simply ignore it. Indifference probably kills faster than any kind of engagement. But you have done what you had to and now the damage is done. And the more you try and stop it, the more you will push up the interest button. Its kind of inversely proportionate. Is that really what you want? But I understand your pain. I understand where its coming from. I too come from a so called refugee family. Both my grandfathers lost everything ­ their land, their trees, their homestead, one even lost his entire life¹s savings in 1947. Incidentally but not so coincidentally both came to Calcutta - you see this was before my parents met or married ­ a city quite hostile to the refugees as also to their dialect and culture. My nuclear family moved to Delhi roughly when I was born. I grew up with the knowledge that Œhome¹ was Œsome place else.¹ But where exactly no one could tell. Functionally it was Calcutta. But logically, it should have been either Barishal or Jashore, where we couldn¹t go ­ don¹t get me wrong, visas were given, we just lacked the cash. I grew up in Delhi feeling quite alienated from my classmates who had roots, deep root: they had villages they knew and visited, ancestral homes, common cultures. I had none, or they were somewhere else. And any attempt to find roots was a lost cause because where or what could they go into? Bangladesh? It didn¹t exist when my grandparents exited. East Pakistan? That doesn¹t exist any longer. So my childhood roots could only go up in air. But coming back to the pain, I wonder who can I draw as enemy, who can I blame? Who caused the pain? Because for certain my family, and families, went through pain. Extreme pain. Loss rings deep. Even today wedding invitations carry markers like ABC (name of the father of bride/ groom) of DEF (place in Bangladesh) at present a resident of XYZ (somewhere in India) invite you to the wedding of.... Do you understand? 60 years after our families left we, at least those who do the Œcorrect¹ things like marriage, still claim our lineage to a land which has ceased to be ours 60 years ago. So who¹s the enemy? Who truncated that umbilical cord between land and culture? The problem was that that was too complex. I couldn¹t really think that one through. So I though let me see if locating an identifiable enemy is beyond my capabilities is there at least an errant cousin, a filmmaker who rides on pain to claim fame? You know I gave it some very serious thought indeed and I think Ghatak might just fit the bill. Ritwik i.e. Especially his Komal Gandhar. Which is a less celebrated film than his more celebrated ones. But the storyline, the form and especially his protagonists and their ideology is great for our common endeavour that I am gong to suggest in a minute. But have you seen the film? Do see it if you haven¹t. It uses a theatre group to shamelessly propagate an ideology that has been rubbished even on this list. I suggest we call for a ban on this film. Imagine what mileage we¹ll get. Or do I mean the film will get? Whatever. We can claim that all independent filmmakers are fundamentally fundamentalists and unable to connect to pain. Apart from that you see I also have a vested interest. Komal Gandhar happens to be my personal favourite, probably because personal taste is not dictated by popular consent. And I am often a little puzzled as to how less it is rated compared to Ghatak¹s other films. So see, if such a campaign can be started, the film will for certain become extremely popular. Very popular indeed. Many people who don¹t know about the film will come to know of it. It will get screened in different cities and halls ­ we are after all celebrating THE 60th year ­ and this film does address the P word . Academics might start to write about, even high-brow lists like Sarai-readers list might comment on the film, and for all you know, even Shuddha might write about it. I recall reading a great piece by him on the motif of the bahurupiyas confronting two errant children in an abandoned airfield in the film Subarnarekha. But I can¹t remember or at least haven¹t seen anything by him on Komal Gandhar. Over the last 6 months I watched all of you and learnt that that is sure-fire strategy. I am impressed by your dedication and strategy. Especially your strategy. And your dedication to continually evolve it. So I am suggesting this. Why make a hero out of Kak? He is such a johny-come-lately. Why not strike at the roots of all such films? Komal Gandhar probably is the precursor to, or the grandfather of, films like Jashn-e-azadi. So hit the root. The branches are sure to fall off. Let me know your thoughts. Coming back to the narrative of my family and pain allow me to tell you a little about my father ­ I¹ll leave the mother-motif for another sleepless night. My father, who is now dead, was once young. Probably at your age Aditya he joined the Socialists. You see he didn¹t have the hind-sight of history so he did what his heart and conscious dictated. He was quite close to Lohiya and JP and in his twenties became the president of the Western Railwaymen¹s Union. But he was recalled from Bombay to Delhi by JP who wanted him to work on some new initiative. Anyway, he did as told, also married, and I make an appearance on the scene. In the late Œ60s, when I am 4 or 5 one of the tasks he carried out was to provide a safe meeting place, in his house, for Sheikh Abdullah and Mridula Sarabhai to meet and confabulate. Do you know what they ­ not my father but the other two ­ were talking about? The RIK certainly does, no? Its recorded history after all. On Kashmir after all. Recorded history does not always record the stories foot soldiers. My father, by allowing a person under house arrest, to meet another who was soon going to be put under house arrest, called on himself the ire of the state. Or is it nation? Or nation-state? Whatever. But as a 4 or 5 year old I knew meaning of words like Œintelligence¹ Œshadowed¹ and the dreaded word CID. At least I think that was the dreaded word. My father continues on his chosen path. All as a socialist. No hind-sight you see. And I watched from the side-lines of the side-line. When I was 12 I learn about MISA, learn to live with a Œmissing father¹ who¹s Œunderground,¹ watch countless raids into our homes; for some strange reasons totally beyond my comprehension all those Œraids¹ were carried out by the IT department! But all that was as a child. With no real understanding. Only feelings. It wasn¹t till much later that I learnt that that tall, bald headed man, wearing a crisp, white Kurta-pajama, the one who towered over most men by a foot or so, the one who sat on our verandah talking endlessly to a woman in crisp white salwar kameez, the man also known as the Lion of Kashmir, had led battles against various causes one of which was the choice of accession to the republic of India. Funnily, my classmate - or was he my brother¹s classmate, whatever ­ his grandfather who was once the King of Kashmir had actually opted to go with Pakistan. A Kashmiri Pundit, a maharaja to boot, wants to secede from India while a Muslim, leading a tribal brigade, wants to remain. Now I think I¹ve lost the plot altogether. But coming back to my father, a refugee who makes democratic choice, in a democratic country/ nation/ nation-state/ whatever, to go into politics, albeit oppositional politics, is continuously hounded by the country/ nation/ nation-state/ whatever for you know what? His political beliefs. The story doesn¹t end at Emergency. Then there was the Kudal Commission. JP was already dead. He, alone, battles the government/ country/ nation/ nation-state/ whatever for a simple reason: a Œwrong¹ allegation, a Œmistake.¹ For 6 years. Alone. I write about him because I read many of your mails tonight and he came back. He¹s been dead almost 13 years now, but reading your mails I got another perspective on the man, a mere foot soldier though. He paid the price of choosing the wrong political set up at a time when democratic systems and institutions were even less mature. No hind sight you see. But that apart, in my personal recollection I don¹t remember any litany of pain. He laughed instead. He was an extremely funny and fun loving man. Deeply irreligious he had immense faith. He couldn¹t believe in God so chose to believe in men. Had he not suffered? Of course he had. Had not seen trauma? Of course he had. He was almost a youth at partition. And like every other family, ours too has horrific stories. And he was a witness, not even spared by age. So, I am feeling a little puzzled tonight. Why didn¹t he complain? At least he could have called for a ban. On Komol Gandhar perhaps? Maybe then he might have made it to recorded history as a punctuation mark? Or at the very least he should/ could have spent his life complaining, bitterly about all those fame seekers, trouble makers, the salt rubbers. I wonder why didn¹t he do that? At least he could have hidden his obvious love for life, remained a victim? Was it necessary to be so blatantly in love with life and living? And tonight I begin to Œsee¹ that it was this inexplicable love he had for life that made him choose unpopular causes. Too, too many to even list, forget recount. But I am grateful to all five of you for helping me to Œsee¹ the obvious, for helping me to connect to my father, now dead, in a completely new light. But you know, how sometimes you can miss the very obvious simply because its staring you in the face? So thanks yaar. And there is one more thing. The Kudal Commission showed to me, and hopefully to a few others too, that even the entire might of the mighty state is often unable to make false charges stick. So what¹s the point, yaar? Anyway, you see I read many of your mails tonight and I thought of pain. Impossible to define scientifically. I mean is it at all possible to use some sort of measure to see whose pain is deeper and hurts more? But tonight I thought it might not be a bad idea to try and make a measuring instrument like that. Then we could compare all of us who have experienced pain ­ my father, I albeit from the side lines, all of you ­ whose pain is greater? Or should we leave that ­it - to the crux of the film Hiroshima Mon Amour? I am not sure any longer. Actually to be sure of anything is getting increasingly difficult. I am sure you don¹t know what I mean. If you have read till here, thank you for your patience. I can¹t really ask God to bless you, but I do wish you lots and lots of abundant energy for your cause, for your cause can only help my cause - that of showing and screening all films to everybody. Gargi Sen _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 2 19:29:46 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 06:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? In-Reply-To: <002501c7ec5b$d3d6b070$0300a8c0@MRAY> Message-ID: <485981.87248.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear M Ray I can speak only for myself. Neither am I anti Muslim, nor am I anti-Islam. Both Muslims and Islam are a part of India. I am a "secularist" too. One where religion is a private affair between a person and presumed "divinity". Religion has no place, in my opinion in the affairs of the Nation. Anyone, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jain, Sikh, Jew, Atheist, Agnostic etc (or any yet to emerge religionist) who threatens or undermines my Nation, is it's enemy and my enemy. No identity of a humanbeing transcends (in this our world) the recognition of what Passport you hold or are eligible for. Only the "la la landers" believe otherwise. M Ray, I do recognise the point you are making. Those who ignore the situation, will do so at their own peril Kshmendra Kaul MRSG wrote: Dear Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul I have not entered in this Kashmir debate execpt that I informed that Kashmir is only 20% of all J&K. (Generally I donot enter this e-debates, only because of my fellowship here, I go through this list and sometimes cannot resist to get involved) HOWEVER MY SUGGESTION TO YOU THAT NEVER LISTEN TO A 'SECULAR BENGALI HINDU REFUGEE'. They are the worst of backboneless people on the earth. Bengali hindus are being raped, killed, looted everyday in Bangladesh (previous East Pakistan) and they are coming in India everyday. But nearly all the refugees are not only silent but also go anyway to stop talking about it. While in las 50 years not a single muslim has migrated from West Bengal to EPakistan/Bangladesh, millions of bengali hindus have come to West Bengal and they are coming and coming. Bangladesh's hindu population has come down from 30% in 1951 to 9% in 2001, worst ethnic cleansing in modern history. Not only that. now Bangladeshi Muslims are coming in hordes. West Bengal's demography has changed. Its just matter of time to turn West Bengal into Bangladesh. SO PLEASE NEVER debate with them, its useless. Let them go on with their intellectual acrobatics till some day their houses are looted, their women are raped. If you can do anything yourself, do that only. M. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gargi Sen" To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 6:43 AM Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? > Hello everyone, > I am a self-confessed lurker on this list. Till date I have only read > postings and followed a few debates. But the recent spate of mails had a > stunning effect - to paraphrase Shuddha ­ and stunned even me out of the > zone of silence into speech. And as I spent most of the night in reading > the > incredible number of recent mails, I may as well stay up and write. And > despite the circumstances, I am happy to become visible, albeit virtually. > > This mail though is addressed to 5 young men called Aditya, Rashneek , > Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul. And my apologies to the rest of the list for > length of the mail. > Gargi > > Dear Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul, > You know you are probably going about it ­ it being the stopping of > Jashn-e-azadi - all wrong. You probably do know that the more you Œtalk¹ > about a film/ book/ art/ food anything, the more you spread an interest > about it. Any talk of Œbanning¹ send interests zooming sky high. And to > point to Œuncensored¹ you hit bulls eye. Really. The best course probably > might have been to simply ignore it. Indifference probably kills faster > than > any kind of engagement. But you have done what you had to and now the > damage > is done. And the more you try and stop it, the more you will push up the > interest button. Its kind of inversely proportionate. Is that really what > you want? > > But I understand your pain. I understand where its coming from. I too come > from a so called refugee family. Both my grandfathers lost everything ­ > their land, their trees, their homestead, one even lost his entire life¹s > savings in 1947. Incidentally but not so coincidentally both came to > Calcutta - you see this was before my parents met or married ­ a city > quite > hostile to the refugees as also to their dialect and culture. My nuclear > family moved to Delhi roughly when I was born. I grew up with the > knowledge > that Œhome¹ was Œsome place else.¹ But where exactly no one could tell. > Functionally it was Calcutta. But logically, it should have been either > Barishal or Jashore, where we couldn¹t go ­ don¹t get me wrong, visas were > given, we just lacked the cash. I grew up in Delhi feeling quite alienated > from my classmates who had roots, deep root: they had villages they knew > and > visited, ancestral homes, common cultures. I had none, or they were > somewhere else. And any attempt to find roots was a lost cause because > where > or what could they go into? Bangladesh? It didn¹t exist when my > grandparents > exited. East Pakistan? That doesn¹t exist any longer. So my childhood > roots > could only go up in air. > > But coming back to the pain, I wonder who can I draw as enemy, who can I > blame? Who caused the pain? Because for certain my family, and families, > went through pain. Extreme pain. Loss rings deep. Even today wedding > invitations carry markers like ABC (name of the father of bride/ groom) of > DEF (place in Bangladesh) at present a resident of XYZ (somewhere in > India) > invite you to the wedding of.... Do you understand? 60 years after our > families left we, at least those who do the Œcorrect¹ things like > marriage, > still claim our lineage to a land which has ceased to be ours 60 years > ago. > So who¹s the enemy? Who truncated that umbilical cord between land and > culture? > > The problem was that that was too complex. I couldn¹t really think that > one > through. So I though let me see if locating an identifiable enemy is > beyond > my capabilities is there at least an errant cousin, a filmmaker who rides > on > pain to claim fame? You know I gave it some very serious thought indeed > and > I think Ghatak might just fit the bill. Ritwik i.e. Especially his Komal > Gandhar. Which is a less celebrated film than his more celebrated ones. > But > the storyline, the form and especially his protagonists and their ideology > is great for our common endeavour that I am gong to suggest in a minute. > But > have you seen the film? Do see it if you haven¹t. It uses a theatre group > to > shamelessly propagate an ideology that has been rubbished even on this > list. > > I suggest we call for a ban on this film. Imagine what mileage we¹ll get. > Or > do I mean the film will get? Whatever. We can claim that all independent > filmmakers are fundamentally fundamentalists and unable to connect to > pain. > > Apart from that you see I also have a vested interest. Komal Gandhar > happens > to be my personal favourite, probably because personal taste is not > dictated > by popular consent. And I am often a little puzzled as to how less it is > rated compared to Ghatak¹s other films. So see, if such a campaign can be > started, the film will for certain become extremely popular. Very popular > indeed. Many people who don¹t know about the film will come to know of it. > It will get screened in different cities and halls ­ we are after all > celebrating THE 60th year ­ and this film does address the P word . > Academics might start to write about, even high-brow lists like > Sarai-readers list might comment on the film, and for all you know, even > Shuddha might write about it. I recall reading a great piece by him on the > motif of the bahurupiyas confronting two errant children in an abandoned > airfield in the film Subarnarekha. But I can¹t remember or at least > haven¹t > seen anything by him on Komal Gandhar. > > Over the last 6 months I watched all of you and learnt that that is > sure-fire strategy. I am impressed by your dedication and strategy. > Especially your strategy. And your dedication to continually evolve it. So > I > am suggesting this. Why make a hero out of Kak? He is such a > johny-come-lately. Why not strike at the roots of all such films? Komal > Gandhar probably is the precursor to, or the grandfather of, films like > Jashn-e-azadi. So hit the root. The branches are sure to fall off. > > Let me know your thoughts. > > Coming back to the narrative of my family and pain allow me to tell you a > little about my father ­ I¹ll leave the mother-motif for another sleepless > night. My father, who is now dead, was once young. Probably at your age > Aditya he joined the Socialists. You see he didn¹t have the hind-sight of > history so he did what his heart and conscious dictated. He was quite > close > to Lohiya and JP and in his twenties became the president of the Western > Railwaymen¹s Union. But he was recalled from Bombay to Delhi by JP who > wanted him to work on some new initiative. Anyway, he did as told, also > married, and I make an appearance on the scene. In the late Œ60s, when I > am > 4 or 5 one of the tasks he carried out was to provide a safe meeting > place, > in his house, for Sheikh Abdullah and Mridula Sarabhai to meet and > confabulate. Do you know what they ­ not my father but the other two ­ > were > talking about? The RIK certainly does, no? Its recorded history after all. > On Kashmir after all. > > Recorded history does not always record the stories foot soldiers. My > father, by allowing a person under house arrest, to meet another who was > soon going to be put under house arrest, called on himself the ire of the > state. Or is it nation? Or nation-state? Whatever. But as a 4 or 5 year > old > I knew meaning of words like Œintelligence¹ Œshadowed¹ and the dreaded > word > CID. At least I think that was the dreaded word. My father continues on > his > chosen path. All as a socialist. No hind-sight you see. And I watched from > the side-lines of the side-line. When I was 12 I learn about MISA, learn > to > live with a Œmissing father¹ who¹s Œunderground,¹ watch countless raids > into > our homes; for some strange reasons totally beyond my comprehension all > those Œraids¹ were carried out by the IT department! > > But all that was as a child. With no real understanding. Only feelings. It > wasn¹t till much later that I learnt that that tall, bald headed man, > wearing a crisp, white Kurta-pajama, the one who towered over most men by > a > foot or so, the one who sat on our verandah talking endlessly to a woman > in > crisp white salwar kameez, the man also known as the Lion of Kashmir, had > led battles against various causes one of which was the choice of > accession > to the republic of India. Funnily, my classmate - or was he my brother¹s > classmate, whatever ­ his grandfather who was once the King of Kashmir had > actually opted to go with Pakistan. > A Kashmiri Pundit, a maharaja to boot, wants to secede from India while a > Muslim, leading a tribal brigade, wants to remain. Now I think I¹ve lost > the > plot altogether. > > But coming back to my father, a refugee who makes democratic choice, in a > democratic country/ nation/ nation-state/ whatever, to go into politics, > albeit oppositional politics, is continuously hounded by the country/ > nation/ nation-state/ whatever for you know what? His political beliefs. > The > story doesn¹t end at Emergency. Then there was the Kudal Commission. JP > was > already dead. He, alone, battles the government/ country/ nation/ > nation-state/ whatever for a simple reason: a Œwrong¹ allegation, a > Œmistake.¹ For 6 years. Alone. > > I write about him because I read many of your mails tonight and he came > back. He¹s been dead almost 13 years now, but reading your mails I got > another perspective on the man, a mere foot soldier though. He paid the > price of choosing the wrong political set up at a time when democratic > systems and institutions were even less mature. No hind sight you see. But > that apart, in my personal recollection I don¹t remember any litany of > pain. > He laughed instead. He was an extremely funny and fun loving man. Deeply > irreligious he had immense faith. He couldn¹t believe in God so chose to > believe in men. Had he not suffered? Of course he had. Had not seen > trauma? > Of course he had. He was almost a youth at partition. And like every other > family, ours too has horrific stories. And he was a witness, not even > spared > by age. So, I am feeling a little puzzled tonight. Why didn¹t he complain? > At least he could have called for a ban. On Komol Gandhar perhaps? Maybe > then he might have made it to recorded history as a punctuation mark? Or > at > the very least he should/ could have spent his life complaining, bitterly > about all those fame seekers, trouble makers, the salt rubbers. > > I wonder why didn¹t he do that? At least he could have hidden his obvious > love for life, remained a victim? Was it necessary to be so blatantly in > love with life and living? And tonight I begin to Œsee¹ that it was this > inexplicable love he had for life that made him choose unpopular causes. > Too, too many to even list, forget recount. But I am grateful to all five > of > you for helping me to Œsee¹ the obvious, for helping me to connect to my > father, now dead, in a completely new light. But you know, how sometimes > you > can miss the very obvious simply because its staring you in the face? So > thanks yaar. > > And there is one more thing. The Kudal Commission showed to me, and > hopefully to a few others too, that even the entire might of the mighty > state is often unable to make false charges stick. So what¹s the point, > yaar? > > Anyway, you see I read many of your mails tonight and I thought of pain. > Impossible to define scientifically. I mean is it at all possible to use > some sort of measure to see whose pain is deeper and hurts more? But > tonight > I thought it might not be a bad idea to try and make a measuring > instrument > like that. Then we could compare all of us who have experienced pain ­ my > father, I albeit from the side lines, all of you ­ whose pain is greater? > Or > should we leave that ­it - to the crux of the film Hiroshima Mon Amour? > > I am not sure any longer. Actually to be sure of anything is getting > increasingly difficult. I am sure you don¹t know what I mean. > > If you have read till here, thank you for your patience. > > I can¹t really ask God to bless you, but I do wish you lots and lots of > abundant energy for your cause, for your cause can only help my cause - > that > of showing and screening all films to everybody. > > Gargi Sen > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. From tarunbhartiya at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 19:30:11 2007 From: tarunbhartiya at gmail.com (Tarun Bhartiya) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 19:30:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Needs and styles of Panditocracy Message-ID: Needs and styles of Panditocracy For all those amused/fascinated/disgusted or plainly mystified by the responses Jashn-e-Azadi's (non) screening journey has gathered, here is the accumulated commentary of more than two years. As editor of the film, I comment in order to take a bit (hopefully quite a bit) of blame about the lopsided stance of the film vis-à-vis the Pandits and the Indian Nation, and as the Shillong based moderator and blogmistri of www.jashneazadifilm.com to also share in some of the opprobrium about freedom of expression. Speak, you also, speak as the last, have your say. Speak – But keep your yes and no unsplit And give your say this meaning: give it shade. Give it shade enough, give it as much as you know has been dealt out between midday and midday and midnight. Look around: look how it all leaps alive – where death is ! Alive ! He speaks truly who speaks the shade. (Paul Celan) Even if I assume that the outraged constellation of media savvy undergraduate bluster, pop Sufism embarrassed at the Islamic roots of Sufism, elegantly written defenses of intolerance, and the conspiratorial comedies of the blog world, do not represent the range of politics and opinions which the Kashmiri Pandit (KP) world has to offer (how can it?), at least these maneuverings allow us a privileged peep into the workings of Panditocracy, an opinion making machine which grinds into motion (or is it always working?) to defend the ramparts of divinely ordained Bharatvarsha. This defence plan, of which patriotic snitching is the latest weapon used, has consisted of protesting shock troopers, willful misreading of the film, conspiratorial search for a 'puppet master', repeated unsubstantiated allegations in the hope that by their very repetition would make them true, vile and threatening comments on the blog (comments which we have quite early on and openly said we would moderate), and non-reviews of the film stalking any discussion forum, website, blog which mentions Jashn-e-Azadi … As if an event management company has been working to a script. In this tiring necessity, talking to Sanjay recently, we laughed and said that only thing left for the Panditocrats was to accuse us of making threats – and there it was: a post on the Reader's list hypothesizing about the matter. (Maybe they should accuse us now of scripting their responses too. ) But this script which Panditocracy churns out, every once in a while (sadly Jashn-e-Azadi is not its first target) has a history. A history which needs to be spoken about, dissected and innards examined, to understand its working and its intentions. A leaf, treeless For Bertolt Brecht, What times are these when a conversation is almost a crime because it includes so much made explicit ? (Paul Celan) I was curious, December 2004, Sanjay came to Shillong for a film festival and over some nice Swish coffee, outlined his ongoing Kashmir project and asked me to be a part of it. My small town curiosity about the big issue was also about the professional desire to be part of a process not limited by 28 minutes of scripted gentility. I saw his Narmada Film at the festival, a depressing letter to the tradition of the non-violent progressive nation and felt that finally I have seen a documentary which is not about solutions, outrage, horror show, but an engagement, thinking through, a conversation which began when the film ended. (Even if my work on Jashn-e-Azadi does to some people just a bit of what 'Words on Water' did to me, I can go back to watching Shillong rain). But what of Kashmir did I know? I knew the shorthand – JKLF, LeT, JeM, Hizb, IeD, Pakistan, Flawed elections, progressive visions of National Conference perverted by its inheritors, Islamic Fundamentalism, and the Tragedy of Pandits. I acknowledge that this short hand knowledge was filtered-tempered by my khadi diaper upbringing. This filter has meant that as much as I try, only by parricide will I be a part of the right wing nationalist consensus about India. But if I wasn't a part of the 'right' brigade, I was still somewhere in the secular progressive mode of envisioning India – a vision that for all its criticality remains inscribed within the accidental cartography of India. Kashmir to Kanyakumari, a people's republic. Defend not just the nation, but the people bound by the nation. Although all this secular progressive inheritance was already getting slightly rusty in the winds of North East (that other endemic battleground of the Indian nation), where I grew up and now lived. Also, blame it on the post 9/11 shape of the world, where struggles and their rhetoric, and their bombs were (and are) grabbing the Manichean dialectic of my tradition into the uncharted political mess. If you ignore the (vanaspati) Pandit Nehru, my political encounters with Kashmir began with the Pandits. As an undergraduate in the Delhi University, in the early nineties of Raths and Reservations, as part of campaigns against majoritarian Hindu visions, these two issues which were sure to come up to embarrass us into silence – Shah Bano and our willful neglect of the victims of Islamic terror – namely the Kashmiri Pandits who had been driven out of the Kashmir Valley. (Why were we only working with the victims of riots in Seelampur, while there were Kashmiri Pandits refugees right here in Delhi?) The organisation to which I belonged had many senior democratic rights and civil liberties activists, who had kept watch over happenings in Kashmir, but they too were silenced into embarrassment. Remember in the late eighties - there were many trips which many progressives (Gandhians, JPites, Radical humanists, even Maoist sympathisers) made to Kashmir to look at the early days of the Indian states' encounters with the movement there. They had all come back with stories of repression, and the sentiment of people chanting 'Azadi'. Many of the unresolved questions of Kashmir had started making appearance in the mass media. The Indian project was again up for questioning. But then the first wave of migration of Pandits from the valley happened, and my tradition was stunned into an embarrassed silence. Lest our campaigns to question howling Hindutva be suspected of one sidedness, we were forced to omit any mention of Kashmir. We started making obligatory noises about the plight of the Pandits. Trips to refugee camps were made and a balancing act ensued - we made the mandatory connection between Majoritarian Islamic politics with Majoritarian Hindu politics. But these trips were curiously ambiguous, a trudge through the debris of hope that only exiles could build out of. But there was more, there was a more insistent air of exultant grief – now you see the truth as we want you to see. For me, the odious memories of Muslim persecution which I had to listen to became too much. But I being the well meaning liberal I was training to be, filed them as a tragedy whose opinions I did not like, but so what, still a tragedy, and I shut up. And thus a decade of Kashmir was lost to me; it became my bad conscience to which I would return in purer times. Pandit migration became the gate from where to enter Kashmir, with well-chosen Panditocrats as gatekeepers. The diversity of Kashmir's' politics, its history, and its voices turned one colour – green. Propaganda on PTV. In these three years of working on Jashn-e-Azadi, recovering those years of disappearances, encounters, curfews, crackdown, reptilian Indian secret apparatuses, internecine battles – my head screams. Where were those stories? Why didn't I seek them? A valley of savages with beards, the popular upsurge. All had vanished into anonymous violent headlines. A consensus appeared in which we all partook, from The Hindu to the Organiser, Kashmiris as irrational mullahs with bombs, their Sat phones trained towards their Emirs. How could we even imagine politics in such an irrational revanchist atmosphere? If what they can do with their well-integrated minority was any indication, then god-forbid, what theocratic dread we were going to have! In our fears for the 'innocent' Kashmiris, we chose to be liberal interventionists, with Indian Security apparatus doing the dirty but necessary work on behalf of civilization and democracy. A whole people and their history was switched off. What remained were victims, being paraded in their pain. If you asked a question, it stared you with grief-wet eyes, striking you with guilt. And you moved on from politics to tragedy, questioning to heartfelt sadness, concrete to debilitating abstractions. Between the idea and the word there is more than we can understand. There are ideas for which no words can be found The thought lost in the eyes of a unicorn appears again in a dog's laugh. (Vladimir Holan) Obviously it would be a tad bit too obvious to point out that the other film "And the world remained silent" wholesale borrows its title from Eli Weisel's classic telling of the Holocaust experience. And it may also be too obvious to reach out for some historic correspondences in this well thought out semantic borrowing, because it is to the pantheon of holocaust and genocide to which the Panditocrats want their experiences to belong. But in the contested terrain of the meaning and histories of the Holocaust, lie some cautionary lessons for us. In a simple counter posing of the silence of the world and the genocidal destruction of European Jewry, the Zionist telling of its history plays on the guilt of the silent world to unquestioningly accept the special place for the Jews as victims, and thus accords them a special treatment and protection. Because there remains a fascist fringe (or Ahmedinijad) with their anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying fantasies, to question any element of this equation then opens you out as an anti-Semite or a Holocaust denier. The Zionist machine ensures that uncomfortable questions about the behaviour of Israel, for instance, are kept out of bounds in popular consciousness. Anti-Semitism becomes Anti-Israel. But the world of Holocaust History is not only the world of Zionist grievers and Fascist conspiratorialists. There have been – and are – other voices, the most prominent of them being Raul Hilberg (who died recently), a figure of hate for both the Zionist and Holocaust deniers. In his seminal and monumental work 'Destruction of European Jewry' about both the number and composition of the dead in Nazi Concentration camps, and the ideology that led to the world of concentration camps, he shows that numbers in themselves tell you nothing, unless and until you unpack them in their historical concreteness. Otherwise they just remain a shocking image, an ideology whose function may very well be to stop any historical enquiry. In his work he shows that if it was Holocaust for the Jews, it was also for the Gypsies, the Homosexuals, the Communists. In his view, Zionist attempts to appropriate special victim hood was not just mistaken, but also ideological, which by making the tragedy a-historical, allowed them to shield their politics from any enquiry. It is not only the title of the film "And the world remained silent" they have borrowed, but their attacks on our film also closely borrows the language and politics of Zionism. If you are a Jew who questions Zionism, s/he is a Self Hating Jew. So if you are Sanjay Kak, a Kashmiri Pandit, who refuses to toe the community consensus, he is suffering from Self-Hatred. If you question the Panditocratic consensus – you are anti-national, anti-people. (The Anti-Hindu charge is reserved for their favoured company, the Swapan Dasguptas and Sandhya Jains, not Sarai Reader's List.) As an example, in all the twisted public posturing as a non-sectarian, liberal, mystic, Mr Nietzsche (Twice) Born, with Ghalib as his wali, Rumi as his 'quotable quotes' and Kashmiri Muslims as his friends, when it comes to private arenas of beliefs truly held, what comes out, unsurprisingly, is not Anti-Islamic Fundamentalist belief, but Anti-Muslim bile. He borrows his terminology from the Hindu Right. (Please trawl through this list for a private mail revealed by mistake, and his comments approvingly quoted at the Maharaja Agrasen College screening of ATWRS in the blog of the film). His Nietzschian nihilism is not all that Nietzschian in it's all embracing nihilism of 'all that is sacred', but instead a sad adolescent copy of the Nazi caricatured Nietzsche, who foretold the 'Superman' being reborn. Even in their willful misreading of the film, which they wish to memorialize through their web stalking (even on their blackberries), this historic script is being materialized. By accusing the film of minimising the numbers of dead, and not according special status to the Pandit dead, or minimizing their tragedy, they hope that Jashn-e-Azadi would be pushed into a life on the fringes of jehadi propaganda, whose CDs could then be regularly seized by Indian Police to show their active involvement in the fight against terrorism. To return to Raul Hilberg, and his monumental work (which even Zionist Historians refer to), in popular telling he was tarred with the same number-brush, accused of robbing the dead of their special status. If you accuse someone of trifling with Human tragedy, what you are trying to do is to warn off that 'open minded' soul to close his or her mind. To reach for my editing pride – let me go over some numbers that concern KPs in the film. They appear just before the intermission (if somebody really wants to know, I can recall for you the reasons for this placement), and I quote the script : [[BEGIN QUOTATION FROM THE FILM]] A village of absence: Haal village Txt Caption 3A: In the volatile 1990 uprising, Kashmir's Pandit minority became vulnerable to a sharp religious polarization. Almost 200 Hindus were brutally killed by extremists. Subtitles: Is Piarey Hatash at home? Could I speak with him? Bade Papa there's a phone for you? Greetings! I'd spoken with you, about your poem … "Brothers our address - "So brothers our address is lost Where do we look for our own, that place is lost What we gazed upon with love all our years That shelter is locked, our home is lost … Txt Caption 3B: The Government let it be known it was unable to guarantee their safety, and encouraged them to leave.Over the next year, nearly 160,000 Pandits fled the valley. txt: Haal South Kashmir Summer 2004 [[END FILM QUOTE]] 200 is the number of dead in the year 1990-91, the year of their first exodus, and this is important, it does not say a total of 200 Pandits dead till 2007. (In fact the graphic in the film actually omits to mention the number of Muslim dead for that period: that is an omission that someone from the valley should point out!). But unlike what the number twisting ARKP would have people believe (without seeing the film), we simply wanted to point out the reality behind the perception in the minds of the minority about the struggle for Azadi in the valley. When we later return to the KPs exile in the film, we pose a question for the movement in the valley, which should be an uncomfortable question for our imagined "puppet masters" [[BEGIN QUOTATION FROM THE FILM]] 55 A village of absence: Haal village • A moon rises over the hill; a boat • Phone rings and he begins a recitation Subtitles: I don't know what happened to the line Yes, I couldn't figure out either Can you again, from beginning to end - So brothers our address is lost Where do we look for our own, that place is lost What we gazed upon with love all our years That shelter is locked, our home is lost Who for that darkness do we blame? Stifled, alas, that reason is lost Fluttering around the lamp, burnt ourselves Darkness fell, the moth is lost When will return that heart-warmth? The intimacy of winter nights is lost You see on winter nights we would meet in our villages, in the old days, we'd share our joys and sorrows We'd weave blankets, tell old tales, of ancient dervishes So that's why – When will return that heart-warmth? The intimacy of winter nights is lost All we'd garnered was one faith Lidless our pots, the treasure is lost At the last, when we leave with nothing God knows, what places were lost The one who knew tomorrow's secrets That dervish, that mad seer is lost Txt: Pyare 'Hatash', Jammu When I recited these ghazals in Srinagar, at Tagore Hall, people started to cry … We're just the two of us here my children are outside, in Delhi. I don't move out Because outside is a fog, of politics, of violence, of lies, and lust – I just stay at home, I'm broken by this world – as poets often are … I want to see you … V/O 15 The broken voice of a poet, evoking the absence of a lost minority … That's a question that hangs over the struggle for freedom in Kashmir, collateral damage to the old questions of freedom, nation, and religion. [[END FILM QUOTE]] (By the way, in that year of 1990-91, around 700 Kashmiri Muslims also died in Kashmir.) So what do the Panditocrats want? They want to silence the critical voices from raising any question that they have not vetted. They want to be sole actors, directors, and scriptwriters of this twenty yearlong story. Twenty years of "And the world should remain silent" and only listen to us: ask no questions, express no doubt. If even well feted liberals like Ramchandra Guha say that "the two critical events that… defined the epoch of competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid and the exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits (India after Gandhi)" then you know that Panditocracy is not a fringe phenomenon. They have succeeded in suspending all disbelief. For instance one commonsensical question, how come 200,000 or 500,000 (fill in any big number), are forced out of a place, and the Indian state, which Panditocrats defend with such zeal, does nothing or remains silent. And there is no skepticism directed towards this divine protector of life and liberty. Even if the cause of this 'forced' migration was that every Kashmiri Muslim (doubtful, but what the hell let me be ARKP for a moment) was baying for KP blood, wasn't it the responsibility of Indian state apparatus – which can station 700,000 soldiers, camp around every village of the valley, crackdown at a drop of an utensil – to do something. Okay, even if it had inadequate forces in 1990-91 and wanted for sometime to allow people to move to safe places, why didn't it encourage them to move back when it had adequate security? Or will the return only happen when all the Muslims have been repatriated to Pakistan (or where ever they are to be thrown out or made to vanish), and then the Pandits can enjoy their purified ancestral land (read Panun Kashmir). This is a legitimate question to ask (Jashn-e-Azadi doesn't do that, but someone will), as legitimate as asking of the movement in valley as to why was their minority made to feel unsafe? But ask unvetted questions, and see Panditocrats piling onto you. For you see KP's in exile makes more sense for the Indian state, than them being in the valley. Poignancy of Exile and Migration is more potent than the historical messiness of politics. Poignancy, if I may point out to the Panditocrats, is not just the migration of Pandits, but a Pandit politics based on the triumphant return to the cleansed land of the Twice born. And that, friends, has the possibility of making the exile a permanent condition. But these are troubling thoughts… let me get back to the troubles at hand, of refusing to see Kashmir only from the eyes of Panditocrats. I am proud of theses troubles, for no longer will the only conversation about Kashmir be about 'jehad' and its 'innocent' victims. Jashn-e-Azadi has attempted, in its own inadequate filmic way, to ask questions, join conversations, bear witness. No wonder the Panditocracy is outraged. An outrage that is stopping me from going back and enjoying my special Shillong rain. From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Sep 2 19:50:11 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:50:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai (acronym?) In-Reply-To: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DAC69B.9070309@sarai.net> Dear A.R.K.P Ever since some of us have been called Hyenas on this list, I have rediscovered my old interest in Hyenas. Wikipedia of course has an excellent entry on Hyaenidae. see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyenas And they are in fact very interesting creatures. (I am paraphrasing here from the Wikipedia entry) Female spotted hyenas, for instance possess the largest clitorises in the animal kingdom, and their The anatomical position of the genitalia gives females total sexual control over who is allowed to mate with them. This means that every one of us who believes in complete gender equality should have the Hyena as their mascot. Also, Hyenas are highly intelligent animals. One indication of hyena intelligence is that they will move their kills closer to each other to protect them from scavengers; another indication is their strategic hunting methods. I have noticed how often the A.R.K.P conglomerate cluster their posts together in response to somethign that someone says on the list, actually making them easy to track down, and to hit all of them by striking at one or two. And I am also glad that Kshemendra has noticed that we have highly evolved strategic hunting methods. Why else would he have called us Hyenas. Apart from being skilled hunters and highly social animals, most hyena species are also efficient scavengers. They have extremely strong jaws in relation to their body size and have a very powerful digestive system with highly acidic fluids, making them capable of eating and digesting their entire prey, including skin, teeth, horns, bones and even hooves. Since they eat carrion, their digestive system deals very well with bacteria. Now as any ecologist will tell you. Scavengers are vital to the health of an ecosystem. They prevent infection and disease by digesting and disposing of what would be otherwise quite lethal to others. If this list is an ecosystem, and we the S.H.I.T.S are its scavengers, then I have no hesitation in pointing out precisely where the carrion, the dead meat of exhausted arguments and contagion are. Intelligent readers will understand the import of my suggestions. As hyenas, by chewing on, and digesting, the bits of carrion and dead meat that finds its way into this list we are maintaing its health and ecology. In Hindu society, the lowest castes, those who disposed of dead meat, cadavers and carried fecal matter actually kept the whole social order clean. They were often referred to colloquially as 'hyena's. While it was common for the highest castes to abuse those below them as hyenas, pigs, dogs and jackals. What the twice born sometimes forgot, and continue to forget, is that if no one cleans the shit, including that excreted by the twice born themselves, epidemics spread. The 'hyenas' of the hindu social order. Perhaps, we, who question the automatic assumption of the naton state, who do not want to see military occupations continue in the name of the integrity of the republic, are the hyenas of this list. And some of us are currently engaged in cleaning fecal matter. We are prepared to do this quite cheerfully. And though I do not know M. Yousuf personally, neither who he or she is, or where he or she comes from, I am happy to recognize the solidarity that binds us sanitation workers. I am happy to whistle a tune with him while we clean the latrines, together. But lets get back to the Hyena as an animal. Apart from the fact that there are lots of stories and folklore pertaining to the magic power of hyenas, and that they are recognized in many societies as mischievous tricksters who bring sudden justice by overturning the social order with their raucous laughter and their healthy appetite for the erotic, Hyenas also bring good health, fertility, love, luck. Wearing a hyena's tooth in North Western India, brings good fortune in love. Hyenas are often seen as animals endowed with special magic prowess in Africa as well. For those interested in Hyena folklore relevant to the South Asian subcontinent, please see - The Magicality of the Hyena: Beliefs and Practices in West and South Asia by Jürgen W. Frembgen, Asian Folklore Studies > Vol. 57, No. 2 (1998) Finally, let me turn to the corpus of Sanskrit literature, something that Kshemendra's illustrious eleventh century namesake (the Sanskrit poet and satirist whom I admire) might have been more familiar with than our latter day Kshemendra (the K of A.R.K.P) The myth of Indra and the Yatis, mentioned in the Black Yajur Veda Samhitas and the Brahmanas of the Sama Veda, features Indra, the sky god, handing over a pack of errant ritualists, who intone the same mantras over and over again, to the Salavrakeyas (Hyenas). The precise sloka is - 'indro vai yatint salavrkeyebhyah prachyat'. [Purists will please forgive me for the absence of diacritics when I render Sanskrit into a roman font, but I am writing on a non html based list, so I can't use diacritics.] The myth concerns a group of ritualists, 'yatis' a priestly group not unlike the Bhrigus, in the corresponding meta- vedic literature. The yatis, having committed ritual flaws, are eaten/sacrificially offered to the young cubs of a female hyena (salavrki), who are identified with Indra, whereupon they are reborn as rain and food. There is a very interesting book on the subject - 'The Ravenous Hyenas and the Wounded Sun: Myth and Ritual in Ancient India' Stephanie W. Jamison, published by Cornell University Press, Ithaca, 1991 On page 112 of the book, Jamison writes, and I cannot resist quoting her, "the myth of Indra, the Yatis and the Salavrkeyas (hyena cubs) seems to represent a model of Vedic sacrifice, perhaps recounting the origin of the animal sacrifice itself, and as such can be reckoned among Indra's beneficial cosmogonic activities' In her treatment of the myth of Indra and the Yatis, Jamison argues that, far from engaging in a callous act of violence, Indra may well be acting as a transformed female hyena, nurturing her young with food. The Yatis, moreover are not simply innocent victims of slaughter, but fulfill certain ritual activities by virtue of their asociation with the Uttraravedi, the ritual where animals are sacrificed and where rain making rituals are performed. True to the life giving capacity of Vedic ritual, the Yatis are transformed into plants that ensure rain. If this list (like any internet forum) is a kind of sky full of thunder and lightning - an Indrajal (an early metaphor for the Internet) presided over by a distant Indra - whom we could playfully transpose on to the emergent collective consciousness of this list, Then A.R.K.P are its Yatis, the errant ritualists, and we whom they call the S.H.I.T.S are its hungry hyena cubs, its Slalvrkeyas. We will (metaphorically, not literally) dig into them, and all that they have to offer with our very sharp teeth, consume them in our own proto Vedic sacrifice, digest them whole and transform the sacrificial offering into a rain of words, of arguments and of discourse. As I write this, it is raining outside, inside, everywhere. Indra thunders. And listen, all the hyenas are laughing. regards, Shuddha, From skinnyghosh at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 19:56:02 2007 From: skinnyghosh at gmail.com (sukanya ghosh) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:56:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai (acronym?) In-Reply-To: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DAC7FA.7030707@gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, I really think everyone might survive the shock of being called 'shits'. You don't have to rack your brains thinking up acrimonious acronyms (funny as they are). and before you start madly dashing off a mail rubbishing me, my beliefs, point of view, history, experiences, opinions, credentials etc - please give this list a rest for a while. i will consider all of it said. best wishes sukanya Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > This is for those of you who are the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai" who are so obsessed with just only their Self that they have lost all Self-respect. > > Interestingly, since some here are very fond of acronyms, they can work out the acronym for "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai". Fits them. > > One called M Yousuf chooses to talk about Kashmir in SARAI. He uses the term "Indian occupied Kashmir" and none of you "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai" contests that usage. > > One of the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai", Shuddhabrata Sengupta, in fact gleefully acknowledges the contribution made by M Yousuf: > > """"""The A.R.K.P interpretation (thanks, Yousuf for a handy nomenklatural abbreviation for this 'league of extraordinary gentlemen' of Aditya, Rashneek, Kshemendra and Pawan, or should I say 'Amalgamated Recidivist Kooks & Poseurs')"""""""""" > > > Kshmendra Kaul > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 19:57:24 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 20:27:24 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Is There Nothing You Would Censor? Message-ID: The question was asked repeatedly on Sarai list recently, "are there films whose screenings you would stop"? Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn? Read on.... Already Under Fire, a Producer Is Going Further By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT Published: June 25, 2007 ...Having already provoked parents, women's groups and the ratings board with explicit ads for the coming torture movie ''Captivity,'' Mr. Solomon and his After Dark Films now intend to introduce the film, set for release July 13, with a party that may set a new standard for the politically incorrect. ...But the warren of live torture rooms is a must. As Mr. Solomon envisions it, individuals in torture gear will wander through the West Hollywood club Privilege grabbing partygoers. All of which is a prelude to an undisclosed main event that, he warned last week over slices of pizza a few doors from his company's new offices on the Sunset Strip, is ''probably not legal.'' "'The women's groups definitely will love it,'' Mr. Solomon hinted. ''I call it my personal little tribute to them.'' Mr. Solomon, a fast-talking 35-year-old, and his genre-film company were barely noticed until outrage at the ''Captivity'' billboards -- which chronicled a young woman's torment, with frames titled ''Abduction,'' ''Confinement,'' ''Torture,'' ''Termination'' -- led to a rare censure by the Motion Picture Association of America this spring. When the association's ratings board suspended its process for a month as a punitive measure, ''Captivity'' missed its May release date and was bumped to June 22. But Bob Weinstein and his Dimension Films wanted that date for their competing horror film ''1408,'' and he persuaded Mr. Solomon to swap for Friday, July 13. Mr. Solomon quickly called that Friday ''Captivity Day.'' ...These added explicit torture , including a so-called ''milkshake'' scene that involves body parts and a blender, to a picture that was largely psychological in its thrust when After Dark acquired the rights to it. Government to Take a Hard Look at Horror By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT Published: March 24, 2007 ...Earlier this week, After Dark and Lionsgate scrambled to contain the public-relations damage after a Los Angeles Times columnist quoted several young students objecting to an especially gruesome billboard for ''Captivity'' near their middle school. After Dark, which is expected to release the film on May 18 with Lionsgate, quickly agreed to pull part of its ad campaign. ....Horror aficionados date the genre's current flourishing to October 2004. The first of Lionsgate's ''Saw'' movies, about a demonically inventive serial killer, opened to a surprisingly strong $18 million on its first weekend, though it lacked an expensive cast or a pedigreed filmmaker. Sequels, imitators and close cousins soon followed. ...Fox Atomic, a division formed by Fox Searchlight to cultivate the late-teenage and early-adult audience, on March 6 placed an ad for its film ''The Hills Have Eyes 2'' with an evening showing of ''Dodgeball,'' rated PG-13, on FX. The ad identified ''Hills,'' about National Guard trainees brutally murdered by mutants, as being not yet rated, though film association guidelines call for the disclosure of ratings in ads, and the company had accepted an R rating the day before. John Hegeman, Fox Atomic's chief operating officer, said the R rating was missing because it takes about two days to alter a television spot ....official sites for R-rated fare -- deal with Bloody-disgusting.com, Arrow in the Head (joblo.com/arrow), Fangoria.com, or any of another dozen such Web sites. (Bloody-disgusting, for example, includes chat forums that address such questions as: ''Can anyone suggest a good torture-esk movie?'')...The operators of several such sites said they had no way of knowing how many of their visitors were under 17, but believed the numbers were substantial. ''The horror site skews a little more toward the younger ones,'' said Berge Garabedian, founder of the Joblo.com film site and its associated Arrow in the Head horror section, which this week carried a banner ad for an unrated DVD of ''Sublime,'' about gruesome murder in a hospital, from Warner Home Video. Mr. Garabedian said he tried to block visitors under 15 from discussion boards in order to eliminate ''a lot of MySpace craziness,'' but thought a considerable share of his Arrow in the Head visitors to be in the 13-to-18-year-old age range. ....Experian Simmons Research found that 12 percent of respondents between the ages of 12 and 17 reported watching ''Saw II'' in theaters, while 12 percent said they had seen the film on DVD, and 26 percent reported viewing any horror in theaters. In its 2004 report, the Federal Trade Commission said that in 36 percent of their attempts, its underage ''mystery shoppers'' were able to buy a movie ticket without an age check in theaters, down somewhat from about half in 2000. Meanwhile 81 percent of the young buyers obtained R-rated DVDs without a check. From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Sep 2 21:23:07 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 21:23:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai (acronym?)] Message-ID: <46DADC63.4000906@sarai.net> Dear All, One inadvertent error in my posting The line that ends with a full stop saying 'The 'hyenas' of the hindu social order.' should read 'Those called the 'hyenas'of the hindu social order, performed, and (and in some cases continue to perform) this task. though not necessarily with their own consent.' Thanks, Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear A.R.K.P > > Ever since some of us have been called Hyenas on this list, I have > rediscovered my old interest in Hyenas. > > Wikipedia of course has an excellent entry on Hyaenidae. > see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyenas > > And they are in fact very interesting creatures. (I am paraphrasing here > from the Wikipedia entry) Female spotted hyenas, for instance possess > the largest clitorises in the animal kingdom, and their The anatomical > position of the genitalia gives females total sexual control over who is > allowed to mate with them. This means that every one of us who believes > in complete gender equality should have the Hyena as their mascot. > > Also, Hyenas are highly intelligent animals. One indication of hyena > intelligence is that they will move their kills closer to each other to > protect them from scavengers; another indication is their strategic > hunting methods. > > I have noticed how often the A.R.K.P conglomerate cluster their posts > together in response to somethign that someone says on the list, > actually making them easy to track down, and to hit all of them by > striking at one or two. And I am also glad that Kshemendra has noticed > that we have highly evolved strategic hunting methods. Why else would he > have called us Hyenas. > > Apart from being skilled hunters and highly social animals, most hyena > species are also efficient scavengers. They have extremely strong jaws > in relation to their body size and have a very powerful digestive system > with highly acidic fluids, making them capable of eating and digesting > their entire prey, including skin, teeth, horns, bones and even hooves. > Since they eat carrion, their digestive system deals very well with > bacteria. > > Now as any ecologist will tell you. Scavengers are vital to the health > of an ecosystem. They prevent infection and disease by digesting and > disposing of what would be otherwise quite lethal to others. If this > list is an ecosystem, and we the S.H.I.T.S are its scavengers, then I > have no hesitation in pointing out precisely where the carrion, the dead > meat of exhausted arguments and contagion are. Intelligent readers will > understand the import of my suggestions. As hyenas, by chewing on, and > digesting, the bits of carrion and dead meat that finds its way into > this list we are maintaing its health and ecology. > > In Hindu society, the lowest castes, those who disposed of dead meat, > cadavers and carried fecal matter actually kept the whole social order > clean. They were often referred to colloquially as 'hyena's. While it > was common for the highest castes to abuse those below them as hyenas, > pigs, dogs and jackals. What the twice born sometimes forgot, and > continue to forget, is that if no one cleans the shit, including that > excreted by the twice born themselves, epidemics spread. The 'hyenas' of > the hindu social order. > > Perhaps, we, who question the automatic assumption of the naton state, > who do not want to see military occupations continue in the name of the > integrity of the republic, are the hyenas of this list. And some of us > are currently engaged in cleaning fecal matter. We are prepared to do > this quite cheerfully. And though I do not know M. Yousuf personally, > neither who he or she is, or where he or she comes from, I am happy to > recognize the solidarity that binds us sanitation workers. I am happy to > whistle a tune with him while we clean the latrines, together. > > But lets get back to the Hyena as an animal. Apart from the fact that > there are lots of stories and folklore pertaining to the magic power of > hyenas, and that they are recognized in many societies as mischievous > tricksters who bring sudden justice by overturning the social order with > their raucous laughter and their healthy appetite for the erotic, > Hyenas also bring good health, fertility, love, luck. Wearing a hyena's > tooth in North Western India, brings good fortune in love. Hyenas are > often seen as animals endowed with special magic prowess in Africa as well. > > For those interested in Hyena folklore relevant to the South Asian > subcontinent, please see > > - The Magicality of the Hyena: Beliefs and Practices in West and South > Asia by Jürgen W. Frembgen, Asian Folklore Studies > Vol. 57, No. 2 (1998) > > Finally, let me turn to the corpus of Sanskrit literature, something > that Kshemendra's illustrious eleventh century namesake (the Sanskrit > poet and satirist whom I admire) might have been more familiar with than > our latter day Kshemendra (the K of A.R.K.P) > > The myth of Indra and the Yatis, mentioned in the Black Yajur Veda > Samhitas and the Brahmanas of the Sama Veda, features Indra, the sky > god, handing over a pack of errant ritualists, who intone the same > mantras over and over again, to the Salavrakeyas (Hyenas). The precise > sloka is - 'indro vai yatint salavrkeyebhyah prachyat'. > > [Purists will please forgive me for the absence of diacritics when I > render Sanskrit into a roman font, but I am writing on a non html based > list, so I can't use diacritics.] > > The myth concerns a group of ritualists, 'yatis' a priestly group not > unlike the Bhrigus, in the corresponding meta- vedic literature. The > yatis, having committed ritual flaws, are eaten/sacrificially offered to > the young cubs of a female hyena (salavrki), who are identified with > Indra, whereupon they are reborn as rain and food. > > There is a very interesting book on the subject - 'The Ravenous Hyenas > and the Wounded Sun: Myth and Ritual in Ancient India' Stephanie W. > Jamison, published by Cornell University Press, Ithaca, 1991 > > On page 112 of the book, Jamison writes, and I cannot resist quoting > her, "the myth of Indra, the Yatis and the Salavrkeyas (hyena cubs) > seems to represent a model of Vedic sacrifice, perhaps recounting the > origin of the animal sacrifice itself, and as such can be reckoned among > Indra's beneficial cosmogonic activities' > > In her treatment of the myth of Indra and the Yatis, Jamison argues > that, far from engaging in a callous act of violence, Indra may well be > acting as a transformed female hyena, nurturing her young with food. The > Yatis, moreover are not simply innocent victims of slaughter, but > fulfill certain ritual activities by virtue of their asociation with the > Uttraravedi, the ritual where animals are sacrificed and where rain > making rituals are performed. True to the life giving capacity of Vedic > ritual, the Yatis are transformed into plants that ensure rain. > > If this list (like any internet forum) is a kind of sky full of thunder > and lightning - an Indrajal (an early metaphor for the Internet) > presided over by a distant Indra - whom we could playfully transpose on > to the emergent collective consciousness of this list, Then A.R.K.P are > its Yatis, the errant ritualists, and we whom they call the S.H.I.T.S > are its hungry hyena cubs, its Slalvrkeyas. We will (metaphorically, not > literally) dig into them, and all that they have to offer with our very > sharp teeth, consume them in our own proto Vedic sacrifice, digest them > whole and transform the sacrificial offering into a rain of words, of > arguments and of discourse. > > As I write this, it is raining outside, inside, everywhere. Indra > thunders. And listen, all the hyenas are laughing. > > regards, > > Shuddha, > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 21:40:00 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 21:40:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir, Cashmir... Message-ID: <47e122a70709020910w30dd2e9at402e789ddc88157e@mail.gmail.com> Everything that irritates us about other can lead us to an understanding of ourselves. Carl Jung. I will try to be as simple as possible. I am trying again to write something on Kashmir. Aga Shahid Ali has aptly composed many Cashmeers in one of his poems, because there indeed are many Kashmirs for each one of us. More Kashmirs than we can write with given English alphabets even. But it is not necessary that each two Kashmirs ( say Kashmir and Cashmir) can be in a fighting mood every time. They can exist simultaneously and even offer a space for another Kashmir to sit and contribute to the net-working of This Kashmirs. But since, we know that any number of conflicting Kashmirs, too, are immensely contributing to the understanding of other, so every Kashmir stands not-excluded. I have to remind myself, time and again, that there are millions of Kashmirs. Each material individual: a Kashmir, as a given subject, that significantly causes an understanding of ourselves. This can happen only in mind, because I am trying to push this word beyond the range of alphabets. This can be a part of some radical thought, because the on going success graph of a typical urbanized standard life form is uni-dimensional, hence boring in many senses. It does not take a philosopher to tell us that how an Individual living in a Metro-city feels over-taxed and often emotionally frustrated by the speed of life. Rural India is in imitating mode, so everything looks messy at the moment. In the Himalayan Regions, like Kumaon, Gharwal, they say, Chaptta KarDo ( Flatten it ). People want to connect themselves with fast Metros and all that which constitutes a Metro city. They have a right to think so. Here, people have the right to disagree with that also, that is normal. What interests me most is the idea that engages 'the other', be it within the city or out there. The other, as we know is a flexible term. Every other person is other for the other, and one can play this instrument OTHER by simply touching its cords efficiently or casually. Since no body can claim to be a master of this instrument, because every time is first time. The other, I believe is the word that problematizes everything, everything. At the moment I want to enter' this other' through a vivid phrase by Loius Althusser " labour of the tailor that disappears in the coat." I guess, we rarely see the faces of those labourers who toiled hard to mix concrete or lifted marble blocks on their shoulders for the making of Taj Mahal. All we see is the final form, which hypnotizes us visually. We even forget the amputation of the hands of all the craft- person who created The Taj. In short, the discourse 'On Love', I believe, can change even, and take a better form than we know. I am slightly trying to club, environmental issues and Kashmir so that the Kashmir word becomes truly universal, or that way, Environmental issue becomes truly universal. Any criticism to this is that there are Kashmiris themselves who are trampling with the echo system of Kashmir and hence the word 'Kashmir' can not become universal in that sense. I don't dispute that. Here, I remember, Prof. Ghulam Mohd. Shaad, ( Govt. Degree college Anantnag ) recited a poem in Sahitya Academy few years back titled ' Thar Nanuk '( heads and tails) in which he explicitly talked about the excesses both committed by security forces and Militans in Kashmir. As a metaphor he created tension between the two opposing forces with a singular focus on Woman. The woman as nature, harassed, tortured raped and killed by both. No wonder that where ever we look into our history, we see 'woman' as victim. And it seems that no amount of writing on that can reflect the pain SHE has endured since thousands of years. I come back to Kashmir. When Kashmir was sold by British to a King for Rs.75 lacs only, it really transformed into a woman on sale. No wonder why the book by Shabnam Qyoom ' yeh kis ka lahoo, yeh kon mara' was widely read by masses in Kashmir. I guess, it the time when Sheikh Mohd. Abdullah had an accord ( 1975 ) with Indira Gandhi, or may be a little earlier. The victim in book is Reshma who loved Mahmood, but because of some uneasy dramatic twists Ashok was the only trusted person who was asked to take care of Reshma. But to the shocking disbelief of Reshma, Ashok never restored her back to Mahmood. He simply kept her. Now, the situation is, I believe, during all these 60 years of conflict between Ashok and Mahmood, Reshma simply wants to be free. Indeed, once Mahmood Bhai seduced her with his 1947 looks, but now he is old, and more so, reports are that he is a quarrelsome husband, and his numerous children from different wives are either settled in London or are simply poor; as poor as Ashok's. The trouble is that like a true Wahabi Muslim he simply refuses to give her Khula Nama. Politically, Mahmood is right, he says, that how he can utter Talak Talak Talak, when she continues to be locked in the perverted arms of Ashok. He should free her first, and then we can settle it, albeit as per Islamic Laws. Now that is again a disaster for battered Reshma. She simply wants to be free, and a friend of both. But you know, how we treat a woman in our culture. A woman can not be a friend in the first place, let alone if she has shared bed with the man who has a potential to become her friend. We need to understand what is Territory of Desire (( coming book by Annaya Kabir on Kashmir )). We perhaps need some real emancipation, before we even begin to think of debating the claims and counter claims. Yesterday, I happened to be at Indo-Pak Mushaira at Jamia Millia Islamia, and from Kishwar Naheed , the noted feminist Pakistani Poetess, it was not the usual Indo-Pak hug poem, but the core of the conflict: the Woman. She concluded her poem in the auditorium with this note that "He can be a Dost (Friend) ". Yes, there is a J&K Act that disables a woman from inheriting property in J&K in case she marries a Non-J&K Male. This too can be clubbed with the Free Kashmir Movement. There should be choice for each one of us, and that is the Azadi we want in actuality. The word Azadi, which is written with simple grass of the earth and not the usual ink on paper. Please see the image in my blog http://indersalim.livejournal.com from my performance/installation at ISF 2006 event. ' Say No to Death Sentence'. We need to lift the level of ethics, and that can not happen in absence of environmental, social and psychological understanding of the other and self. Here, Felix Guattari's new aesthetic paradigm comes to my mind. So, this 'environmental' which is synonym of 'woman', needs to be incorporated simultaneously in any form of struggle, and that is political. Right now, I am a little interested in some deconstruction of the mundane about Kashmir. We have talked enough through some well known facts about Kashmir. I am pushing it like a mother who has baby inside womb that wants to come out. So, I push: Quite playfully, during our school days we knew how a mere shifting of 'nukta' the black dot on the urdu word ' khuda' turns it into a word ' Judha ' which means the opposite, the conflict, the disintegrated, the death. Those days it was difficult to visualize the rapid fluxes of this nukta but now I feel that ' the nkuta' ( bindi/dot ) functions like a free electron revolving around the nucleus which behaves Khuda/Judha at the same time. Here, this Khuda/Judha thing is quite different from the two words khuda and Judha as we know conventionally. It is almost a common sense, that because of our instinct for life- no one wants to be a Judha. All of us want to be Khuda in a sense that the very sound in essence gives us the understanding of some stability. Some form of visibility that enables us to suppress the negative, death like face of Judha. But one day, we die. Therefore, the word Judha works in tandem with word Khuda for a real understanding of Khuda. Sufi thought is full of such a understanding of life. That is another debate, so for a while let us keep that out. With Kashmir, India is playing that arrogant Khuda, because it does not want to experience Judha and loose the sense of stability, since a Nation Sate easily becomes narcissistic at the very time it gives birth to a Map. So any change that aims to disfigure that particular form of visibility is resisted by those who identify with it. But for those who identify their lucid Khuda with something other than that-it is not a big deal. For some people the whole earth is Khuda and can not be Judha, who is like a bride, unless she is *Striped bare by the very bachelors who claim the title of being of a true lover. So a true lover of earth can not identify with the Khuda as manifest in the Map of a nation state. Enough of this Khuda/Judha thing. There is a law in Science that a balance can be either stable or sensitive. A sensitive balance can not give us a measure of heavy things, and a stable balance can not give us the weight of 'a tinka' ( a straw ). Myself, being one amongst the masses, a tinka, I feel quite insignificant once 'I ' am measured by the balance that is meant to weigh heavy things. We need millions of sensitive balances to tell us how each straw looks like. ( God of Small Things by Arundhati Roy ). And once we are able to do that we can simplify the notion of controlled territories. They don't serve us because they Judha us, and pitch us against the things that are measured by balances meant for heavy things of history. Perhaps, we need a shift. Now, imagine, Shaheed Bhagat Singh comes to life and talks to a Freedom Fighter like Yasin Malik. Here, some Gandhians believe that his throwing of bomb was not mere symbolic, but I guess it was symbolic and he was a real hero by all means. But still Bhagat Singh will not criticize Yasin Malik for his militant activism, though he will give him a tip of so like a good coach. Now, again if Mahatma Gandhi comes back to life how he will talk to Yasin Malik who has shunned violence. He will be glad and pat him on the back. He will try to convince him to stay with the Indian Union, but if he will be shown the grave yards of Kashmir he will suggest Govt. of India to carefully negotiate the terms of Free Kashmir. This is indeed complex for all us, and that is why suggests that we have Kashmir for each one of us. I know many friends in Europe who support the free Kashmir idea, without disbanding their deep love for India. Here, I think that Militants in Kashmir too need to change their strategies for better results and common support. Enough for today. There is couple by Ghalib, my all time favourite. Aasan kahnay ki kartay hai farmaish, Goyam Muskil , vagar-n-goyam Mushkil ( I am expected to be simple, but if I am simple, it becomes difficult for me to breath even.) With love and regards indersalim -- From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 22:05:47 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 09:35:47 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai (acronym?) In-Reply-To: <46DAC7FA.7030707@gmail.com> References: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <46DAC7FA.7030707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709020935i661d2f4cuf980afe5337ab771@mail.gmail.com> ... moving on to crows now, characterized by their close knit social order, invoked particularly when they find themselves challenged while sitting and cawing on proverbial fences ... From sen.gargi at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 23:51:13 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 23:51:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? Message-ID: Hello Everybody, I am not a writer but have nevertheless discovered the two banes in the life of a writer. First, how to start, and second, how to stop. As I have merely crossed the first hurdle I crave your indulgence. And apologies for another mail addressed to a few people on the list. Gargi Dear M. Ray (and of course my young friends Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul) M. Ray I am a little annoyed with you. How could you forget my Œboddi¹ lineage and its implication? While the non-Bengalis on this list will not know what I am talking about you should know better. Because either you are a Bengali or you know enough about Bengalis - who insist on seeing the world divided into two simple camps: Bengalis and non-Bengalis - to so astutely identify my roots. But how could you forget the boddi bit? After all most all boddi women, and men, are enormously proud of their levels of education. And to the best of my knowledge, from that part of the world, after the Khasi women, I believe it was the boddi Bengali women who took to education like fish to water. And even you will agree that to construct convoluted arguments some form of education is necessary. So please do correct your definition. The term Boddi basically delineates ­ draws the boundary of - caste. And in Bengal - Bengal/ West Bengal/ East Pakistan/Bangladesh/ whatever, or if you want another take Bangla/ Goudiya/ Kalinga/ whatever, for sake of simplicity lets go with a concept called Bengal that is not connected to geography or nation but is perhaps necessary to root the Bengali - who still insist that the world has two simple of camps of Bengalis and non-Bengalis. (I won¹t use Language as a definer for fear of digressing into another messy story.) So in this concept called Bengal emerges a caste called Boddi. Stuck between the Brahmin and non-Brahmins they insist on being more on the side of Brahmins than non-Brahmins. The men wear the thread, the death-retreat is for 11 days as versus 13 of the non-Brahmin Bengalis. But you know because caste is far more vigilant than human wishes you can¹t be more or less, you can only be this or that, or here or there. So the Boddis, grudgingly allowed many Brahmin privileges including education are denied the penultimate one: access to God. They can¹t carry out the ritual of religion. That is kept for the Brahmins only. But despite their attempts at creating an exclusive space the Bengali Brahmins are considered a bit outside it all by other Brahmins. As are the Kashmiri Brahmins. Both eat meat you see. I mean the Brahmins from the concept called Bengal and Kashmir eat meat. In the concept called Bengal, quite a few hundred years ago my sir-namesake, one Ballar, invited 7 Bhramins from Ujjain to initiate the caste system and watched in mute agony his personal love life wash away in the deluge he unleashed. I am sure you know better than me the story of genesis of caste in Kashmir. You are after all the RIK. And you might know that in these conceptual states, having begun late, they took to caste with the zeal of the new converts and forgot to watch out for its evolution. Caste, though rigid, is not ossified and continued to evolve and Brahminism went on to marry the virtuous vegetarianism. The two Brahmins forgot to join the brigade and hence earned contempt from the brethren. But perhaps both these communities, with different histories, are similar in their love for food, and maybe they didn¹t really want join the brigade fully because that would have been very, very inconvenient. Where will be the great cuisines of Bengal (or Kashmir) be without the flesh of dead animals? Although I must admit the Bengalis tried quite hard. They have almost managed to convince themselves and quite a fw others that fish is basically a vegetable from the sea. The logic of Caste is compelling and seductive. It delineates humans into fixed boundaries of hierarchy determined at birth. At its root it provides two very interesting principles: the first the doctrine of inequality (some are born higher and thus must fare better than those born lower), the second of divinity ­ God decreed that some are born higher and some lower, so accept without question, it¹s authorised by God you see. Interestingly, because god is not restricted to the private domain of the practicing Hindus many other religions/ systems too accept god, and as a corollary, caste. Its simply one of the most brilliant ruling-class strategies. How very wonderful if the subjects believed that they deserved to be ruled, and how even more wonderful if they believed that they deserved to be ruled by the present ruler. So Islam, the most liberal and emancipated organised religion at its time of emergence, an organised religion that recognised even say the rights of women to property and partner, comes to India through many routes but conveniently adopts a version of caste system when its readying to rule. See how could a Thakur converting to Islam for convenience call a dhobi convert his brother? The roots of the Dalit Christian is newer still. Even the newest organised religion Sikhism , drawing heavily from philosophies of Islam, couldn¹t resist playing footsie with caste. So M. Ray, call me a Hindu if you must but don¹t forget the boddi bit, its important for this narrative. Hitler, drawing up the blue print of a ruling philosophy draws upon a treatise of Nietzsche who draws this one from the Manusmriti written by one Manu, the man who writes down the rigid structures of caste. You see in the 1920s Hitler and his party the Nationalsozilistiche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP) or the Nazi party, outside of a small groups of fanatical Bavarian Nazis, are considered to be vulgar rabble-rousers. When he becomes the chancellor in 1933 the percentage of vote is a mere 33% and people predict a demise of the Nazis. But soon all that changes and the Nazis win the support of the majority of the majority ­ they are able to convince the majority about the superiority of some over other, a doctrine drawn from India, defining the Aryan presented as Fascism. Films played an important role in this shift. Film after film extolled a few principles and themes. The two common and recurring themes in the Nazi films are blut und bloden (blood and soil) and Volk und Heimat (People and homeland). The films though might not have been so effective without ensuring that these were the only films seen. All other voices needed to be blocked without blocking out all other voices propaganda looses its power. Can you begin to see the torturous route of history? Don¹t the Nazi themes still ring true? Blood and soil, people and homeland? The blocked voices? Can you hear them? Another day if you remind me I¹ll tell you the story of Leni Reifenstahl and the persistence of memory. No not the painting, but images that she created that live on till date, images that dazzle, captivate and seduce. But allow me today to tell you a quick story of my grandfather, the father of my father the socialist. You see M. Ray my grandfather fitted your bill better than me ­ today I am not many of those you describe me as ­ my grandfather is/ was. Only in his case I am not sure about secular. Wonder what it means really. Anyway my grandfather being a Bengali, Hindu and a refugee to boot was probably a part of that bunch of backboneless cowards who couldn¹t protect hearth or home. Maybe. But his problems were a little more complicated. You see when he left, another bunch of people, some of who had also butchered and raped and destroyed home and hearth, looked after his property and practices ­ of a Hindu ­ with their entire strength. How does one wish them away? You see, till Ayub Khan makes an appearance in the scene the borders were open, with some minor restrictions. And my grandfather returned faithfully each year, with his family, to carry out the yearly pujas. For some inexplicable reason when he left in 1947 his neighbours, mostly Muslims, looked after his house and the family god, the narayanshila which literally is a black stone, but still needed to be fed, bathed and prayed to twice a day. They ensured that that happened. Look at the irony. My grandfather and his family and progeny were not, and are still not, allowed to touch the narayanshila. Because only Brahmins can touch Gods, even when they are mere stones representing god. The Muslim neighbours looked after not only the property but also the narayanshila and ensured that a Brahmin did the needful daily. Of course this story ended in 1952. And as he was not going to be able to return my grandfather gifted the house to the local villagers with a request to run a girls school, slipped the stone/ god into his pocket and never returned. The black stone needed to be purified. It had been touched by a non-Brahmin. But to the best of my knowledge the girls school is still going on in one of my ancestral villages called Itna, nestled in the banks of Madhumati, in the disrict of Jessore (or Jashore) in Bangladesh. Don¹t mistake me my friends Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul. My family has also seen the other side. What I call the horror stories. But how can I see one and not see the other? And you know, stories like my grandfather¹s are quite common too. I grew up in the western part of India. Stories of neighbours protecting neighbours land, house, mango orchards abound. In case you haven¹t noticed, I am now talking about Hindu¹s protecting the property of Muslims who left. So teach me to how do I achieve your vision? The ability to ignore and focus, or focus by ignoring? How do I see one and not see the one next to it? How did you achieve this, and what did you do to get it? Is it the steadfastness of Arjuna that inspires you? His ability to shut everything out and shoot the moving target above his head, through a whirling wheel to be seen only by looking down into its image reflected in water? But even Arjuna dared to step out and explore. Not just out of his kingdom but out of one of the strictest the boundaries of human race, that of gender. As Brihannalla. For a whole year. Maybe that¹s why poor soul couldn¹t quite make it as a Hindu icon. Its difficult indeed to ignore Brihannala, or the questions s/he raises. Remember my father the socialist? He was a socialist till his death. But when I was young, somewhat younger than you Aditya today, I became fascinated by the words on the tombstone: philosophers have interpreted the world, the point however is to change it. So I became passionately committed to changing the world and my father the socialist and I argued endlessly, passionately, continuously, till he died. I accused him and his ilk of playing footsie with both Gandhians and Congress and thereby legitimising both, later I accused him and his mentor of legitimising the Jan Sangh. He accused me and my ilk of worse. In fact Rahul, had he been alive today he would have happily, and wickedly, helped you enlarge your list and perhaps your vision too. Anyway, we just didn¹t agree, on most things. But when I worked on my first film, I must have been a little older than you are today Aditya a film called the Right To Life that investigated the Jehanabad massacre, he came to see it. Even though I was a lowly assistant to the assistant, even though he vehemently opposed everything the film espoused. He came and watched. He thought the the film was utter crap, not just politically but craft-wise. Today, had he been alive I might have told him I too think so, today. Anyway, the film had disturbed him in some ways, in the violation of human rights it talks of, and my father the socialist, the champion of unpopular causes organised many screenings of this film. Remember it was a film with oppositional politics, remember it wasn¹t very well made, and incidentally his daughter¹s name didn¹t get any significant credits (just in case you think ah ha! nepotism!) but he thought there was some redeeming feature and the film needed to be seen and argued about. Even if he hated most of it. Today I wonder how was that possible? And tell me M. Ray what makes you think I, or my family, have not witnessed pain or run away from truth? Just because I don¹t talk about one kind of personal pain on a public list? Has it even occurred to you that pain needs to be shared in different ways? Have you seen Jash-e-azadi? Dare to see it, or at least see if you have the courage to even think about seeing this film. My father the socialist also used to tell us stories. You see he loved many things in his life, many many things: unpopular causes, his three pegs of whisky every night, story telling, tinkering with new electronic gadgets, but most of all he loved arguing, and nothing pleased him more than a well crafted argument. Do you see? Which side the argument came from didn¹t matter, the craft did. Now you should know M. Ray that to craft a good argument you have to know a lot. So my father, a man without any formal degree, read extensively, and everything. Because what used to annoy him was a lazy argument. Does it surprise you if I say that I have seen this deeply irreligious man read the Gita many times, and even the vedas and upanishads, and of course various katha mritas of various saints from that concept called Bengal? It shouldn¹t surprise you but I am afraid it will. So allow me to advance you a simple argument I learnt as a child on his lap. I can¹t be a Hindu, and a secular, together. Not possible. Secular is without religion and Hindu is a kind of a religion. The two don¹t go together. Like night and day, both exist, can turn into each other, but can¹t exist together in the same time and space. I won¹t tell you how my father would argue that there is no religion called Hindu, lets leave that for another post. But I understand your problem. You are trying to etch my profile, delineate my politics and position to create a distinct identity. And as such delineation is indeed difficult if not impossible you are condemned forever to using contradictory definitions like secular Hindu. Together. Forever. Because that vision, that focused vision, that focused-by-ignoring-others vision cannot see the contradiction, certainly not an argument you don¹t agree with. And you forgot the boddi bit. I hope another sir-namesake called Ronen has redeemed himself in your eyes somewhat? Made up a little for the other two sir-namesakes? The first a crowned beauty, who has a child without a husband and brazenly talks about it in public, and the second who develops those annoying theories that put people before money and leads to the ESG scheme, and gets the noble prize to boot? Why is the boddi bit necessary? You see I lost my faith. My father died with his faith intact; his deep faith in humanity and his lack of faith in god ­ this lack of faith by the way requires faith of truly immense kind. I lost my faith in my lack of faith in faith. I instead found a man wearing a blue suit who publicly converted to Buddhism with his people in Œ56. He had said - I am born a Hindu but I will not die as one. He died shortly after this public act. Many years before this he had also publicly burned the Manusmriti. By such public performances he added another complicated layer to an already messy story of our lives and times and I lost my sense of faith. Because while I can reject Hinduism I can no longer reject caste as a social construct. Do you see M. Ray why the boddi bit is necessary? So today I perhaps no longer have the same vision as Shuddha. But does it matter really? I still love his posts. Especially the precisely crafted arguments, the nuggets of information, the visuals in the words. And where is the problem in this? What¹s the problem in accepting differences? To live with differences? But to live with lazy arguments is another ball game altogether. You see, my friends Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul allow me to be straight forward. I have two problems with most of your posts. Your arguments are weak. You can¹t keep taking recourse to pain as an argument. Arguments need to be constructed and pain unfortunately can only be felt. So to talk only of pain, over and over and over again without adding anything else, apart from abuse and false accusations, has the danger of skidding your position into the terrain of boredom. And even your abuse becomes tedious, repetitive, boring. And the second problem I have is with the strategy you describe and I read in the sub-texts of your posts and its consequences. For if you try to stop arguments and points of view by force or falsehood, if you try and still voices you don¹t agree with, you run into two problems. First you end up giving a lot more credence to what you¹re trying to stop. Second, and this is probably far more dangerous, if you emerge victorious, i.e. if you are actually able to stop all voices you don¹t like one day the silence of silenced voices will silence even your litany of pain. Do you understand? Is that truly what you want? Gargi Sen On 9/1/07 11:19 AM, "MRSG" wrote: > Dear > I have not entered in this Kashmir debate execpt that I informed that > Kashmir is only 20% of all J&K. (Generally I donot enter this e-debates, > only because of my fellowship here, I go through this list and sometimes > cannot resist to get involved) > HOWEVER MY SUGGESTION TO YOU THAT NEVER LISTEN TO A 'SECULAR BENGALI HINDU > REFUGEE'. They are the worst of backboneless people on the earth. Bengali > hindus are being raped, killed, looted everyday in Bangladesh (previous East > Pakistan) and they are coming in India everyday. But nearly all the refugees > are not only silent but also go anyway to stop talking about it. While in > las 50 years not a single muslim has migrated from West Bengal to > EPakistan/Bangladesh, millions of bengali hindus have come to West Bengal > and they are coming and coming. Bangladesh's hindu population has come down > from 30% in 1951 to 9% in 2001, worst ethnic cleansing in modern history. > Not only that. now Bangladeshi Muslims are coming in hordes. West Bengal's > demography has changed. Its just matter of time to turn West Bengal into > Bangladesh. SO PLEASE NEVER debate with them, its useless. Let them go on > with their intellectual acrobatics till some day their houses are looted, > their women are raped. If you can do anything yourself, do that only. > M. Ray > From sen.gargi at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 01:36:03 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 01:36:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai (acronym?) In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0709020935i661d2f4cuf980afe5337ab771@mail.gmail.com> References: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <46DAC7FA.7030707@gmail.com> <5af37bb0709020935i661d2f4cuf980afe5337ab771@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear K. of A.R.K.P you see Shuddha's rejoinder on Hyenas finally converted even me to liking accronyms. I did not presume your age, only your maturity because age has nothing to with growing up, only with growing old. I hear loud and clear - that you will not look kindly upon anyone to seeks to undermine or destroy that - that being your nurturing - whether by word, act or film. But tell me are you not completely delighted by the delightful picture Shuddha draws? Of cheerfully cleaning toilets while whistling a tune with a person whose gender or nationality is unknown? Don't you feel like joining in? Even if he whistled the international? And badly? I felt so tempted. And I know my five year old daughter called Meghan Firdaus would love to join in too. Even if she can't whistle. Kids love feeling happy. And doing things together with adults when everyone is cheerful. So even if you can't grow up, can you at least connect to the child in you? That child in all of us who loves to feel happy? I was going to sleep but couldn't resist writing to you to thank you for provoking the long mail on hyenas. I have not enjoyed something so much in recent times. thanks, Gargi Sen, claiming a membership of S.H.I.T. and still refusing allegiances to a/ any nation/ state/ nation-state/ whatever From nitinforfilms at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 02:04:30 2007 From: nitinforfilms at gmail.com (nitin k) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 02:04:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Upcoming screenings: Black Pamphlets [film about Students elections, Campus democracy and Youth] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Black Pamphlets" Duration: 84 minutes A film By Nitin K. A film about Students elections, students politics, Campus democracy and Youth. Dear friends, Thanks for being there at the screenings of our film "Black Pamphlets". For those of you who have not been able to catch the film so far or would like your friends to see the film, we have more screenings lined up in Delhi. Hope to see you there. - ## 3rd September'07 2.00 p.m. @ Hindu College, North Campus, Delhi - ## 5th September'07 1.00 p.m.@ Shri Venkateshwara College, South Campus, Delhi - ## 6th September'07 4.00 p.m. @ lady Shri Ram College for Women, Greater Kailash, Delhi Black Pamphlets Black Pamphlets takes you into the heart of the Delhi University Students Union Election process. The film is an insider's view of the candidates, strategies, resources and the politics that goes into the making of probably the biggest student election of the country. But beyond that the film through its images of the everyday in the university becomes an opportunity for students from diverse backgrounds to share with the film maker their own understanding of democratic practices, their futures and their today. [ more ] we have also done a small trailer of the film you can watch it by clicking here --> [ @WATCH IT@ ] To Read the Feedback from the screenings Click here --> [ Reactions ] We would like to screen the film around the globe. If you are interested in helping us please contact for screenings, copies of the film , media reportsand any further information: www.blackpamphlets.wordpress.com Nitin k. Producer and Director email: nitinforfilms at gmail.com mobile: 00-91-9313105451 011-24122346 -- # 14, A.R.D Complex, Sector 13, R.K.Puram, New Delhi -110066 INDIA email: nitinforfilms at gmail.com mobile: 00-91-9313105451 00-91-9313649389 From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 03:54:54 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 15:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <301440.80052.qm@web53604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Gargi, I am assuming the Rahul you mention in your emails is me.I will try to answer. >You see, my friends Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , >Pawan and Rahul > allow me >to be straight forward. I have two problems with most >of your posts. > Your >arguments are weak. You can¹t keep taking recourse to >pain as an > argument. >Arguments need to be constructed and pain >unfortunately can only be > felt. So >to talk only of pain, over and over and over again >without adding > anything >else, apart from abuse and false accusations, has the >danger of > skidding >your position into the terrain of boredom. And even >your abuse becomes >tedious, repetitive, boring. My argument has nothing to do with pain.I am not a Kashmiri.As for accusations and abuse,I don't know.If I did,I apologize.I try to keep this impersonal.As for your boredom,sorry but I cant help you there.I don't know how to make my writing interesting,nor do I try. > And the second problem I >have is with the >strategy you describe and I read in the sub-texts of >your posts and its >consequences. For if you try to stop arguments and >points of view by > force >or falsehood, if you try and still voices you don¹t >agree with, you > run into >two problems. First you end up giving a lot more >credence to what > you¹re >trying to stop. Second, and this is probably far more >dangerous, if you >emerge victorious, i.e. if you are actually able to >stop all voices you >don¹t like one day the silence of silenced voices will >silence even > your >litany of pain. Its not about what I want or don't want.Its not about me.Since the two principle actors in this problem are nations,so this problem has to be viewed from the perspective of these nations. >Do you understand? Yeah I do understand,but your assumption and conclusion is wrong;at least in my case. >Is that truly what you want? What I truly want is the resolution of Kashmir issue. Hope this helps Rahul --- Gargi Sen wrote: > Hello Everybody, > I am not a writer but have nevertheless discovered > the two banes in the life > of a writer. First, how to start, and second, how to > stop. As I have merely > crossed the first hurdle I crave your indulgence. > And apologies for another > mail addressed to a few people on the list. > Gargi > > Dear M. Ray (and of course my young friends Aditya, > Rashneek , Kshemendra , > Pawan and Rahul) > > M. Ray I am a little annoyed with you. How could you > forget my Œboddi¹ > lineage and its implication? While the non-Bengalis > on this list will not > know what I am talking about you should know better. > Because either you are > a Bengali or you know enough about Bengalis - who > insist on seeing the world > divided into two simple camps: Bengalis and > non-Bengalis - to so astutely > identify my roots. But how could you forget the > boddi bit? After all most > all boddi women, and men, are enormously proud of > their levels of education. > And to the best of my knowledge, from that part of > the world, after the > Khasi women, I believe it was the boddi Bengali > women who took to education > like fish to water. And even you will agree that to > construct convoluted > arguments some form of education is necessary. So > please do correct your > definition. > > The term Boddi basically delineates ­ draws the > boundary of - caste. And in > Bengal - Bengal/ West Bengal/ East > Pakistan/Bangladesh/ whatever, or if you > want another take Bangla/ Goudiya/ Kalinga/ > whatever, for sake of simplicity > lets go with a concept called Bengal that is not > connected to geography or > nation but is perhaps necessary to root the Bengali > - who still insist that > the world has two simple of camps of Bengalis and > non-Bengalis. (I won¹t use > Language as a definer for fear of digressing into > another messy story.) So > in this concept called Bengal emerges a caste called > Boddi. Stuck between > the Brahmin and non-Brahmins they insist on being > more on the side of > Brahmins than non-Brahmins. The men wear the thread, > the death-retreat is > for 11 days as versus 13 of the non-Brahmin > Bengalis. But you know because > caste is far more vigilant than human wishes you > can¹t be more or less, you > can only be this or that, or here or there. So the > Boddis, grudgingly > allowed many Brahmin privileges including education > are denied the > penultimate one: access to God. They can¹t carry out > the ritual of religion. > That is kept for the Brahmins only. > > But despite their attempts at creating an exclusive > space the Bengali > Brahmins are considered a bit outside it all by > other Brahmins. As are the > Kashmiri Brahmins. Both eat meat you see. I mean the > Brahmins from the > concept called Bengal and Kashmir eat meat. In the > concept called Bengal, > quite a few hundred years ago my sir-namesake, one > Ballar, invited 7 > Bhramins from Ujjain to initiate the caste system > and watched in mute agony > his personal love life wash away in the deluge he > unleashed. I am sure you > know better than me the story of genesis of caste in > Kashmir. You are after > all the RIK. And you might know that in these > conceptual states, having > begun late, they took to caste with the zeal of the > new converts and forgot > to watch out for its evolution. Caste, though rigid, > is not ossified and > continued to evolve and Brahminism went on to marry > the virtuous > vegetarianism. The two Brahmins forgot to join the > brigade and hence earned > contempt from the brethren. But perhaps both these > communities, with > different histories, are similar in their love for > food, and maybe they > didn¹t really want join the brigade fully because > that would have been very, > very inconvenient. Where will be the great cuisines > of Bengal (or Kashmir) > be without the flesh of dead animals? Although I > must admit the Bengalis > tried quite hard. They have almost managed to > convince themselves and quite > a fw others that fish is basically a vegetable from > the sea. > > The logic of Caste is compelling and seductive. It > delineates humans into > fixed boundaries of hierarchy determined at birth. > At its root it provides > two very interesting principles: the first the > doctrine of inequality (some > are born higher and thus must fare better than those > born lower), the second > of divinity ­ God decreed that some are born higher > and some lower, so > accept without question, it¹s authorised by God you > see. > > Interestingly, because god is not restricted to the > private domain of the > practicing Hindus many other religions/ systems too > accept god, and as a > corollary, caste. Its simply one of the most > brilliant ruling-class > strategies. How very wonderful if the subjects > believed that they deserved > to be ruled, and how even more wonderful if they > believed that they deserved > to be ruled by the present ruler. So Islam, the most > liberal and emancipated > organised religion at its time of emergence, an > organised religion that > recognised even say the rights of women to property > and partner, comes to > India through many routes but conveniently adopts a > version of caste system > when its readying to rule. See how could a Thakur > converting to Islam for > convenience call a dhobi convert his brother? The > roots of the Dalit > Christian is newer still. Even the newest organised > religion Sikhism , > drawing heavily from philosophies of Islam, couldn¹t > resist playing footsie > with caste. > > So M. Ray, call me a Hindu if you must but don¹t > forget the boddi bit, its > important for this narrative. > > Hitler, drawing up the blue print of a ruling > philosophy draws upon a > treatise of Nietzsche who draws this one from the > Manusmriti written by one > Manu, the man who writes down the rigid structures > of caste. You see in the > 1920s Hitler and his party the Nationalsozilistiche > Deutsche Arbeiterpartei > (NSDAP) or the Nazi party, outside of a small groups > of fanatical Bavarian > Nazis, are considered to be vulgar rabble-rousers. > When he becomes the > chancellor in 1933 the percentage of vote is a mere > 33% and people predict a > demise of the Nazis. But soon all that changes and > the Nazis win the support > of the majority of the majority ­ they are able to > convince the majority > about the superiority of some over other, a doctrine > drawn from India, > defining the Aryan presented as Fascism. Films > played an important role in > this shift. Film after film extolled a few > principles and themes. The two > common and recurring themes in the Nazi films are > blut und bloden (blood and > soil) and Volk und Heimat (People and homeland). > The films though might not > have been so effective without ensuring that these > were the only films seen. > All other voices needed to be blocked without > blocking out all other voices > propaganda looses its power. > > Can you begin to see the torturous route of history? > Don¹t the Nazi themes > still ring true? Blood and soil, people and > homeland? The blocked voices? > Can you hear them? > > Another day if you remind me I¹ll tell you the story > of Leni Reifenstahl and > the persistence of memory. No not the painting, but > images that she created > that live on till date, images that dazzle, > captivate === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 04:13:14 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 15:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz In-Reply-To: <73eb60090709012221k60f2bd29r871faf855a82a48a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <106860.11475.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Kirdar Sahib, I understand your sentiments.My father has an abject loathing for anything digital.He refuses to acknowledge emails and insists that I write in longhand and send it via snail mail. I still read my poetry from books.Here we were talking about the rendition of a nazm,and about its video.Its because of youtube that I have access to it.You can even find a video of Begum Akhtar singing.I think its kind of cool.Try it some time. regards Rahul --- kirdar singh wrote: > So finally, what's there on the Youtube becomes our > authentic > literature and poetry. Wow. We used to read Urdu > poetry in Urdu books, > then came the same in Devanagri script which was > fine as long as it > reached more and more people. But the present > generation will learn > about our culture and history and poetry from Utube. > > Very soon the archeologist will start digging Utube > for writing > history, and we'll have live mushaira's on Orkut. > > KS > > --- Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > Yasir, > > Iqbal was a school,in fact,Iqbal is a > > school\university in himself.It does not matter > > which > > education he got. > > Anyway,"Hum Dekhenge" clearly has mass appeal.It > > came > > to be more identified with Iqbal Bano than Faiz. > > Personally ,I prefer the other Iqbal Bano Faiz > > combo, > > "dasht-e-tanhaai".Its also on youtube,I guess. > > > > regards > > Rahul > > --- yasir ~ wrote: > > > > > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that > > both > > > sides (or as > > > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and > > > Muhammad Iqbal - > > > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri > > quoting > > > Meray Dil Meray > > > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > > > > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an > > > unimportant note that > > > they both received a similar religious education > > > while growing up in > > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > > sounds. > > > > > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum > > > Dekhenge. it becoming an > > > anthem during the zia years. > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and > > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > the > > > subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship > > answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - > > Check it out. > > > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From sen.gargi at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 08:18:27 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 08:18:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? In-Reply-To: <301440.80052.qm@web53604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks R. of A.R.K.P. Thank you for explaining but I didn¹t mean you, or any Rahul for that matter. That was a serious typo. I meant Pawan. The one who so thoughtfully sent a list of communist excesses to this list. My intention was to share with him that had my father been alive he would have happily and wickedly added to the list. My typing in the name Rahul in place of Pawan was a mistake. That¹s also why I am beginning to really like the acronym A.R.K.P. Keeps typos short. Gargi Sen On 9/3/07 3:54 AM, "Rahul Asthana" wrote: > Hi Gargi, > I am assuming the Rahul you mention in your emails is > me.I will try to answer. >> >You see, my friends Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , >> >Pawan and Rahul >> > allow me >> >to be straight forward. I have two problems with most >> >of your posts. >> > Your >> >arguments are weak. You can¹t keep taking recourse to >> >pain as an >> > argument. >> >Arguments need to be constructed and pain >> >unfortunately can only be >> > felt. So >> >to talk only of pain, over and over and over again >> >without adding >> > anything >> >else, apart from abuse and false accusations, has the >> >danger of >> > skidding >> >your position into the terrain of boredom. And even >> >your abuse becomes >> >tedious, repetitive, boring. > My argument has nothing to do with pain.I am not a > Kashmiri.As for accusations and abuse,I don't know.If > I did,I apologize.I try to keep this impersonal.As for > your boredom,sorry but I cant help you there.I don't > know how to make my writing interesting,nor do I try. >> > And the second problem I >have is with the >> >strategy you describe and I read in the sub-texts of >> >your posts and its >> >consequences. For if you try to stop arguments and >> >points of view by >> > force >> >or falsehood, if you try and still voices you don¹t >> >agree with, you >> > run into >> >two problems. First you end up giving a lot more >> >credence to what >> > you¹re >> >trying to stop. Second, and this is probably far more >> >dangerous, if you >> >emerge victorious, i.e. if you are actually able to >> >stop all voices you >> >don¹t like one day the silence of silenced voices > will >silence even >> > your >> >litany of pain. > Its not about what I want or don't want.Its not about > me.Since the two principle actors in this problem are > nations,so this problem has to be viewed from the > perspective of these nations. >> >Do you understand? > Yeah I do understand,but your assumption and > conclusion is wrong;at least in my case. >> >Is that truly what you want? > What I truly want is the resolution of Kashmir issue. > Hope this helps > Rahul > > --- Gargi Sen wrote: > >> > Hello Everybody, >> > I am not a writer but have nevertheless discovered >> > the two banes in the life >> > of a writer. First, how to start, and second, how to >> > stop. As I have merely >> > crossed the first hurdle I crave your indulgence. >> > And apologies for another >> > mail addressed to a few people on the list. >> > Gargi >> > >> > Dear M. Ray (and of course my young friends Aditya, >> > Rashneek , Kshemendra , >> > Pawan and Rahul) >> > >> > M. Ray I am a little annoyed with you. How could you >> > forget my Œboddi¹ >> > lineage and its implication? While the non-Bengalis >> > on this list will not >> > know what I am talking about you should know better. >> > Because either you are >> > a Bengali or you know enough about Bengalis - who >> > insist on seeing the world >> > divided into two simple camps: Bengalis and >> > non-Bengalis - to so astutely >> > identify my roots. But how could you forget the >> > boddi bit? After all most >> > all boddi women, and men, are enormously proud of >> > their levels of education. >> > And to the best of my knowledge, from that part of >> > the world, after the >> > Khasi women, I believe it was the boddi Bengali >> > women who took to education >> > like fish to water. And even you will agree that to >> > construct convoluted >> > arguments some form of education is necessary. So >> > please do correct your >> > definition. >> > >> > The term Boddi basically delineates ­ draws the >> > boundary of - caste. And in >> > Bengal - Bengal/ West Bengal/ East >> > Pakistan/Bangladesh/ whatever, or if you >> > want another take Bangla/ Goudiya/ Kalinga/ >> > whatever, for sake of simplicity >> > lets go with a concept called Bengal that is not >> > connected to geography or >> > nation but is perhaps necessary to root the Bengali >> > - who still insist that >> > the world has two simple of camps of Bengalis and >> > non-Bengalis. (I won¹t use >> > Language as a definer for fear of digressing into >> > another messy story.) So >> > in this concept called Bengal emerges a caste called >> > Boddi. Stuck between >> > the Brahmin and non-Brahmins they insist on being >> > more on the side of >> > Brahmins than non-Brahmins. The men wear the thread, >> > the death-retreat is >> > for 11 days as versus 13 of the non-Brahmin >> > Bengalis. But you know because >> > caste is far more vigilant than human wishes you >> > can¹t be more or less, you >> > can only be this or that, or here or there. So the >> > Boddis, grudgingly >> > allowed many Brahmin privileges including education >> > are denied the >> > penultimate one: access to God. They can¹t carry out >> > the ritual of religion. >> > That is kept for the Brahmins only. >> > >> > But despite their attempts at creating an exclusive >> > space the Bengali >> > Brahmins are considered a bit outside it all by >> > other Brahmins. As are the >> > Kashmiri Brahmins. Both eat meat you see. I mean the >> > Brahmins from the >> > concept called Bengal and Kashmir eat meat. In the >> > concept called Bengal, >> > quite a few hundred years ago my sir-namesake, one >> > Ballar, invited 7 >> > Bhramins from Ujjain to initiate the caste system >> > and watched in mute agony >> > his personal love life wash away in the deluge he >> > unleashed. I am sure you >> > know better than me the story of genesis of caste in >> > Kashmir. You are after >> > all the RIK. And you might know that in these >> > conceptual states, having >> > begun late, they took to caste with the zeal of the >> > new converts and forgot >> > to watch out for its evolution. Caste, though rigid, >> > is not ossified and >> > continued to evolve and Brahminism went on to marry >> > the virtuous >> > vegetarianism. The two Brahmins forgot to join the >> > brigade and hence earned >> > contempt from the brethren. But perhaps both these >> > communities, with >> > different histories, are similar in their love for >> > food, and maybe they >> > didn¹t really want join the brigade fully because >> > that would have been very, >> > very inconvenient. Where will be the great cuisines >> > of Bengal (or Kashmir) >> > be without the flesh of dead animals? Although I >> > must admit the Bengalis >> > tried quite hard. They have almost managed to >> > convince themselves and quite >> > a fw others that fish is basically a vegetable from >> > the sea. >> > >> > The logic of Caste is compelling and seductive. It >> > delineates humans into >> > fixed boundaries of hierarchy determined at birth. >> > At its root it provides >> > two very interesting principles: the first the >> > doctrine of inequality (some >> > are born higher and thus must fare better than those >> > born lower), the second >> > of divinity ­ God decreed that some are born higher >> > and some lower, so >> > accept without question, it¹s authorised by God you >> > see. >> > >> > Interestingly, because god is not restricted to the >> > private domain of the >> > practicing Hindus many other religions/ systems too >> > accept god, and as a >> > corollary, caste. Its simply one of the most >> > brilliant ruling-class >> > strategies. How very wonderful if the subjects >> > believed that they deserved >> > to be ruled, and how even more wonderful if they >> > believed that they deserved >> > to be ruled by the present ruler. So Islam, the most >> > liberal and emancipated >> > organised religion at its time of emergence, an >> > organised religion that >> > recognised even say the rights of women to property >> > and partner, comes to >> > India through many routes but conveniently adopts a >> > version of caste system >> > when its readying to rule. See how could a Thakur >> > converting to Islam for >> > convenience call a dhobi convert his brother? The >> > roots of the Dalit >> > Christian is newer still. Even the newest organised >> > religion Sikhism , >> > drawing heavily from philosophies of Islam, couldn¹t >> > resist playing footsie >> > with caste. >> > >> > So M. Ray, call me a Hindu if you must but don¹t >> > forget the boddi bit, its >> > important for this narrative. >> > >> > Hitler, drawing up the blue print of a ruling >> > philosophy draws upon a >> > treatise of Nietzsche who draws this one from the >> > Manusmriti written by one >> > Manu, the man who writes down the rigid structures >> > of caste. You see in the >> > 1920s Hitler and his party the Nationalsozilistiche >> > Deutsche Arbeiterpartei >> > (NSDAP) or the Nazi party, outside of a small groups >> > of fanatical Bavarian >> > Nazis, are considered to be vulgar rabble-rousers. >> > When he becomes the >> > chancellor in 1933 the percentage of vote is a mere >> > 33% and people predict a >> > demise of the Nazis. But soon all that changes and >> > the Nazis win the support >> > of the majority of the majority ­ they are able to >> > convince the majority >> > about the superiority of some over other, a doctrine >> > drawn from India, >> > defining the Aryan presented as Fascism. Films >> > played an important role in >> > this shift. Film after film extolled a few >> > principles and themes. The two >> > common and recurring themes in the Nazi films are >> > blut und bloden (blood and >> > soil) and Volk und Heimat (People and homeland). >> > The films though might not >> > have been so effective without ensuring that these >> > were the only films seen. >> > All other voices needed to be blocked without >> > blocking out all other voices >> > propaganda looses its power. >> > >> > Can you begin to see the torturous route of history? >> > Don¹t the Nazi themes >> > still ring true? Blood and soil, people and >> > homeland? The blocked voices? >> > Can you hear them? >> > >> > Another day if you remind me I¹ll tell you the story >> > of Leni Reifenstahl and >> > the persistence of memory. No not the painting, but >> > images that she created >> > that live on till date, images that dazzle, >> > captivate > === message truncated === > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > ______ > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. > Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 09:06:24 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:06:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai (acronym?) In-Reply-To: <19ba050f0709020530m7b4b5a8eqa58680fcf7bccb3b@mail.gmail.com> References: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <19ba050f0709020530m7b4b5a8eqa58680fcf7bccb3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120709022036h2f7eb4a1tb2de08659aaa3557@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yosuf, When Yosuf's noble parents named him Yosuf(king) little would they have known that the name would create a personality disorder in the child.The day Yosuf came to know the meaning of his name,he started believing like a king.He issued orders,glorifications of murderers like Yasin Malik,calling people ghosts and many such things. Why break the bubble,let him live in the euphoria of being a king.King Yosuf.Issue some new orders sir. One thing I do share in common with the king though.I too am not an Indian.He probably wouldnt know.The rulers are not supposed to know all subjects. As for ghosts since I have been labelled as one by the KING,be prepared to get haunted. Rashneek On 9/2/07, M Yousuf wrote: > > I can see Kshemendra Koul going home following the rest of ARKP. And this > post clearly shows where he comes from. I am happy at least Kshemendra has > read Shddhabrata's exhaustive response. that for sure is a healthy sign. > But none from the likes of ARKP could, as I have observed so far, manage > putting together an argument or enough intellectual resource to muster a > response to the actualities contained in Shuddabrata's investigation. Time > for them to make that natural journey of growth, from their rhetoric that > they so vehemently believe in, to defendable and sound argument. > > What Kshemendra also manages to make clear is that this free space should > be > vacated by everybody to be left available only for the passion of keying > expressions disconnected with any thought. Any suggestions Sarai > visitors/contributors? > > Since a blackberry slip mentions"Indian occupied Kashmir", when a large > country like India needs one third of its army (700000 in total consisting > army, BSF, CRPF etc) to control an entire people in Kashmir, what else can > it be described as but occupation. I am not an Indian and even if I was, I > would still allow history, politics of occupation and universal principals > to guide my understanding rather than being carried away by my blind > attachment with a nation state. > > This space is doing a great job at keeping different people with different > views and arguments engaged. While some of us may benefit others refuse to > acknowledge the benefits of a healthy discourse. > > M Yousuf > > > > On 9/2/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > This is for those of you who are the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians > Touring > > Sarai" who are so obsessed with just only their Self that they have lost > all > > Self-respect. > > > > Interestingly, since some here are very fond of acronyms, they can > work > > out the acronym for "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai". Fits > them. > > > > One called M Yousuf chooses to talk about Kashmir in SARAI. He uses > the > > term "Indian occupied Kashmir" and none of you "Shameless Hyaenidae > Indians > > Touring Sarai" contests that usage. > > > > One of the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai", Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta, in fact gleefully acknowledges the contribution made by M > Yousuf: > > > > """"""The A.R.K.P interpretation (thanks, Yousuf for a handy > > nomenklatural abbreviation for this 'league of extraordinary gentlemen' > of > > Aditya, Rashneek, Kshemendra and Pawan, or should I say 'Amalgamated > > Recidivist Kooks & Poseurs')"""""""""" > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 09:13:17 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:13:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Needs and styles of Panditocracy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13df7c120709022043s577b5d5eo46afcab36c83bfbb@mail.gmail.com> Sorry Tarun,you are missing rains in Shillong.I have incidentally not been missing 17 years (all seasons) away from my home,not just rains. Incidentally 17 years before of this very day,my house was looted and torched.It wasnt a big mansion.A small house by the river and a courtyard where I played with my childhood mates Yasin and Shafiq. Shafiq was shot 3 months later,branded a Mukhbir(informer).I am sure he wasnt one.Like me he supported an indepedent,secular,plural and modern Kashmir. 2 years before when I want to his mazar,small white flowers had grown on it,they resembled the print of his shirt that I had last seen him in. Sorry,you are missing your rains..go home..i wish I had one... Regards Rashneek On 9/2/07, Tarun Bhartiya wrote: > > Needs and styles of Panditocracy > > For all those amused/fascinated/disgusted or plainly mystified by the > responses Jashn-e-Azadi's (non) screening journey has gathered, here is > the > accumulated commentary of more than two years. As editor of the film, I > comment in order to take a bit (hopefully quite a bit) of blame about the > lopsided stance of the film vis-à-vis the Pandits and the Indian Nation, > and > as the Shillong based moderator and blogmistri of www.jashneazadifilm.comto > also share in some of the opprobrium about freedom of expression. > > Speak, you also, > speak as the last, > have your say. > > Speak – > But keep your yes and no unsplit > And give your say this meaning: > give it shade. > > Give it shade enough, > give it as much > as you know has been dealt out between > midday and midday and midnight. > > Look around: > look how it all leaps alive – > where death is ! Alive ! > He speaks truly who speaks the shade. (Paul Celan) > > Even if I assume that the outraged constellation of media savvy > undergraduate bluster, pop Sufism embarrassed at the Islamic roots of > Sufism, elegantly written defenses of intolerance, and the conspiratorial > comedies of the blog world, do not represent the range of politics and > opinions which the Kashmiri Pandit (KP) world has to offer (how can it?), > at > least these maneuverings allow us a privileged peep into the workings of > Panditocracy, an opinion making machine which grinds into motion (or is it > always working?) to defend the ramparts of divinely ordained Bharatvarsha. > > This defence plan, of which patriotic snitching is the latest weapon used, > has consisted of protesting shock troopers, willful misreading of the > film, > conspiratorial search for a 'puppet master', repeated unsubstantiated > allegations in the hope that by their very repetition would make them > true, > vile and threatening comments on the blog (comments which we have quite > early on and openly said we would moderate), and non-reviews of the film > stalking any discussion forum, website, blog which mentions Jashn-e-Azadi > … > As if an event management company has been working to a script. > > In this tiring necessity, talking to Sanjay recently, we laughed and said > that only thing left for the Panditocrats was to accuse us of making > threats > – and there it was: a post on the Reader's list hypothesizing about the > matter. (Maybe they should accuse us now of scripting their responses too. > ) > > > But this script which Panditocracy churns out, every once in a while > (sadly > Jashn-e-Azadi is not its first target) has a history. A history which > needs > to be spoken about, dissected and innards examined, to understand its > working and its intentions. > > A leaf, treeless > For Bertolt Brecht, > > What times are these > when a conversation > is almost a crime > > because it includes > so much made explicit ? > (Paul Celan) > > I was curious, December 2004, Sanjay came to Shillong for a film festival > and over some nice Swish coffee, outlined his ongoing Kashmir project and > asked me to be a part of it. My small town curiosity about the big issue > was > also about the professional desire to be part of a process not limited by > 28 > minutes of scripted gentility. I saw his Narmada Film at the festival, a > depressing letter to the tradition of the non-violent progressive nation > and > felt that finally I have seen a documentary which is not about solutions, > outrage, horror show, but an engagement, thinking through, a conversation > which began when the film ended. (Even if my work on Jashn-e-Azadi does to > some people just a bit of what 'Words on Water' did to me, I can go back > to > watching Shillong rain). > > But what of Kashmir did I know? I knew the shorthand – JKLF, LeT, JeM, > Hizb, > IeD, Pakistan, Flawed elections, progressive visions of National > Conference > perverted by its inheritors, Islamic Fundamentalism, and the Tragedy of > Pandits. I acknowledge that this short hand knowledge was > filtered-tempered > by my khadi diaper upbringing. This filter has meant that as much as I > try, > only by parricide will I be a part of the right wing nationalist consensus > about India. But if I wasn't a part of the 'right' brigade, I was still > somewhere in the secular progressive mode of envisioning India – a vision > that for all its criticality remains inscribed within the accidental > cartography of India. Kashmir to Kanyakumari, a people's republic. Defend > not just the nation, but the people bound by the nation. > > Although all this secular progressive inheritance was already getting > slightly rusty in the winds of North East (that other endemic battleground > of the Indian nation), where I grew up and now lived. Also, blame it on > the > post 9/11 shape of the world, where struggles and their rhetoric, and > their > bombs were (and are) grabbing the Manichean dialectic of my tradition into > the uncharted political mess. > > If you ignore the (vanaspati) Pandit Nehru, my political encounters with > Kashmir began with the Pandits. As an undergraduate in the Delhi > University, > in the early nineties of Raths and Reservations, as part of campaigns > against majoritarian Hindu visions, these two issues which were sure to > come > up to embarrass us into silence – Shah Bano and our willful neglect of the > victims of Islamic terror – namely the Kashmiri Pandits who had been > driven > out of the Kashmir Valley. (Why were we only working with the victims of > riots in Seelampur, while there were Kashmiri Pandits refugees right here > in > Delhi?) > > The organisation to which I belonged had many senior democratic rights and > civil liberties activists, who had kept watch over happenings in Kashmir, > but they too were silenced into embarrassment. Remember in the late > eighties > - there were many trips which many progressives (Gandhians, JPites, > Radical > humanists, even Maoist sympathisers) made to Kashmir to look at the early > days of the Indian states' encounters with the movement there. They had > all > come back with stories of repression, and the sentiment of people chanting > 'Azadi'. Many of the unresolved questions of Kashmir had started making > appearance in the mass media. The Indian project was again up for > questioning. But then the first wave of migration of Pandits from the > valley > happened, and my tradition was stunned into an embarrassed silence. Lest > our > campaigns to question howling Hindutva be suspected of one sidedness, we > were forced to omit any mention of Kashmir. We started making obligatory > noises about the plight of the Pandits. Trips to refugee camps were made > and > a balancing act ensued - we made the mandatory connection between > Majoritarian Islamic politics with Majoritarian Hindu politics. > > But these trips were curiously ambiguous, a trudge through the debris of > hope that only exiles could build out of. But there was more, there was a > more insistent air of exultant grief – now you see the truth as we want > you > to see. For me, the odious memories of Muslim persecution which I had to > listen to became too much. But I being the well meaning liberal I was > training to be, filed them as a tragedy whose opinions I did not like, but > so what, still a tragedy, and I shut up. And thus a decade of Kashmir was > lost to me; it became my bad conscience to which I would return in purer > times. Pandit migration became the gate from where to enter Kashmir, with > well-chosen Panditocrats as gatekeepers. The diversity of Kashmir's' > politics, its history, and its voices turned one colour – green. > Propaganda > on PTV. > > In these three years of working on Jashn-e-Azadi, recovering those years > of > disappearances, encounters, curfews, crackdown, reptilian Indian secret > apparatuses, internecine battles – my head screams. Where were those > stories? Why didn't I seek them? A valley of savages with beards, the > popular upsurge. All had vanished into anonymous violent headlines. A > consensus appeared in which we all partook, from The Hindu to the > Organiser, > Kashmiris as irrational mullahs with bombs, their Sat phones trained > towards > their Emirs. How could we even imagine politics in such an irrational > revanchist atmosphere? If what they can do with their well-integrated > minority was any indication, then god-forbid, what theocratic dread we > were > going to have! In our fears for the 'innocent' Kashmiris, we chose to be > liberal interventionists, with Indian Security apparatus doing the dirty > but > necessary work on behalf of civilization and democracy. A whole people and > their history was switched off. What remained were victims, being paraded > in > their pain. If you asked a question, it stared you with grief-wet eyes, > striking you with guilt. And you moved on from politics to tragedy, > questioning to heartfelt sadness, concrete to debilitating abstractions. > > Between the idea and the word > there is more than we can understand. > There are ideas for which no words can be found > > The thought lost in the eyes of a unicorn > appears again in a dog's laugh. > (Vladimir Holan) > > Obviously it would be a tad bit too obvious to point out that the other > film > "And the world remained silent" wholesale borrows its title from Eli > Weisel's classic telling of the Holocaust experience. And it may also be > too > obvious to reach out for some historic correspondences in this well > thought > out semantic borrowing, because it is to the pantheon of holocaust and > genocide to which the Panditocrats want their experiences to belong. But > in > the contested terrain of the meaning and histories of the Holocaust, lie > some cautionary lessons for us. In a simple counter posing of the silence > of > the world and the genocidal destruction of European Jewry, the Zionist > telling of its history plays on the guilt of the silent world to > unquestioningly accept the special place for the Jews as victims, and thus > accords them a special treatment and protection. > > Because there remains a fascist fringe (or Ahmedinijad) with their > anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying fantasies, to question any element of this > equation then opens you out as an anti-Semite or a Holocaust denier. The > Zionist machine ensures that uncomfortable questions about the behaviour > of > Israel, for instance, are kept out of bounds in popular consciousness. > Anti-Semitism becomes Anti-Israel. > > But the world of Holocaust History is not only the world of Zionist > grievers > and Fascist conspiratorialists. There have been – and are – other voices, > the most prominent of them being Raul Hilberg (who died recently), a > figure > of hate for both the Zionist and Holocaust deniers. In his seminal and > monumental work 'Destruction of European Jewry' about both the number and > composition of the dead in Nazi Concentration camps, and the ideology that > led to the world of concentration camps, he shows that numbers in > themselves > tell you nothing, unless and until you unpack them in their historical > concreteness. Otherwise they just remain a shocking image, an ideology > whose > function may very well be to stop any historical enquiry. In his work he > shows that if it was Holocaust for the Jews, it was also for the Gypsies, > the Homosexuals, the Communists. In his view, Zionist attempts to > appropriate special victim hood was not just mistaken, but also > ideological, > which by making the tragedy a-historical, allowed them to shield their > politics from any enquiry. > > It is not only the title of the film "And the world remained silent" they > have borrowed, but their attacks on our film also closely borrows the > language and politics of Zionism. If you are a Jew who questions Zionism, > s/he is a Self Hating Jew. So if you are Sanjay Kak, a Kashmiri Pandit, > who > refuses to toe the community consensus, he is suffering from Self-Hatred. > If > you question the Panditocratic consensus – you are anti-national, > anti-people. (The Anti-Hindu charge is reserved for their favoured > company, > the Swapan Dasguptas and Sandhya Jains, not Sarai Reader's List.) > > As an example, in all the twisted public posturing as a non-sectarian, > liberal, mystic, Mr Nietzsche (Twice) Born, with Ghalib as his wali, Rumi > as > his 'quotable quotes' and Kashmiri Muslims as his friends, when it comes > to > private arenas of beliefs truly held, what comes out, unsurprisingly, is > not > Anti-Islamic Fundamentalist belief, but Anti-Muslim bile. He borrows his > terminology from the Hindu Right. (Please trawl through this list for a > private mail revealed by mistake, and his comments approvingly quoted at > the > Maharaja Agrasen College screening of ATWRS in the blog of the film). His > Nietzschian nihilism is not all that Nietzschian in it's all embracing > nihilism of 'all that is sacred', but instead a sad adolescent copy of the > Nazi caricatured Nietzsche, who foretold the 'Superman' being reborn. > > Even in their willful misreading of the film, which they wish to > memorialize > through their web stalking (even on their blackberries), this historic > script is being materialized. By accusing the film of minimising the > numbers > of dead, and not according special status to the Pandit dead, or > minimizing > their tragedy, they hope that Jashn-e-Azadi would be pushed into a life on > the fringes of jehadi propaganda, whose CDs could then be regularly seized > by Indian Police to show their active involvement in the fight against > terrorism. To return to Raul Hilberg, and his monumental work (which even > Zionist Historians refer to), in popular telling he was tarred with the > same > number-brush, accused of robbing the dead of their special status. If you > accuse someone of trifling with Human tragedy, what you are trying to do > is > to warn off that 'open minded' soul to close his or her mind. > > To reach for my editing pride – let me go over some numbers that concern > KPs > in the film. They appear just before the intermission (if somebody really > wants to know, I can recall for you the reasons for this placement), and I > quote the script : > > [[BEGIN QUOTATION FROM THE FILM]] > A village of absence: Haal village > > Txt Caption 3A: > In the volatile 1990 uprising, Kashmir's Pandit minority became vulnerable > to a sharp religious polarization. > Almost 200 Hindus were brutally killed by extremists. > > Subtitles: > Is Piarey Hatash at home? > Could I speak with him? > Bade Papa there's a phone for you? > > Greetings! > I'd spoken with you, about your poem … > "Brothers our address - > "So brothers our address is lost > Where do we look for our own, that place is lost > What we gazed upon with love all our years > That shelter is locked, our home is lost … > > Txt Caption 3B: > The Government let it be known it was unable to guarantee their safety, > and > encouraged them to leave.Over the next year, nearly 160,000 Pandits fled > the > valley. > > > txt: Haal > South Kashmir > > Summer 2004 > > [[END FILM QUOTE]] > > 200 is the number of dead in the year 1990-91, the year of their first > exodus, and this is important, it does not say a total of 200 Pandits dead > till 2007. (In fact the graphic in the film actually omits to mention the > number of Muslim dead for that period: that is an omission that someone > from > the valley should point out!). But unlike what the number twisting ARKP > would have people believe (without seeing the film), we simply wanted to > point out the reality behind the perception in the minds of the minority > about the struggle for Azadi in the valley. When we later return to the > KPs > exile in the film, we pose a question for the movement in the valley, > which > should be an uncomfortable question for our imagined "puppet masters" > > [[BEGIN QUOTATION FROM THE FILM]] > > 55 A village of absence: Haal village > • A moon rises over the hill; a boat > • Phone rings and he begins a recitation > > Subtitles: > I don't know what happened to the line > Yes, I couldn't figure out either > Can you again, from beginning to end - > > So brothers our address is lost > Where do we look for our own, that place is lost > What we gazed upon with love all our years > That shelter is locked, our home is lost > Who for that darkness do we blame? > Stifled, alas, that reason is lost > Fluttering around the lamp, burnt ourselves > Darkness fell, the moth is lost > When will return that heart-warmth? > The intimacy of winter nights is lost > > You see on winter nights > we would meet in our villages, > in the old days, > we'd share our joys and sorrows > We'd weave blankets, > tell old tales, of ancient dervishes > So that's why – > > When will return that heart-warmth? > The intimacy of winter nights is lost > All we'd garnered was one faith > Lidless our pots, the treasure is lost > At the last, when we leave with nothing > God knows, what places were lost > The one who knew tomorrow's secrets > That dervish, that mad seer is lost > > Txt: Pyare 'Hatash', Jammu > > When I recited these ghazals > in Srinagar, at Tagore Hall, > people started to cry … > > We're just the two of us here > my children are outside, in Delhi. > I don't move out > Because outside is a fog, > of politics, of violence, > of lies, and lust – > I just stay at home, > I'm broken by this world – as poets often are … > I want to see you … > > V/O 15 > The broken voice of a poet, evoking the absence of a lost minority … > That's a question that hangs over the struggle for freedom in Kashmir, > collateral damage to the old questions of freedom, nation, and religion. > > [[END FILM QUOTE]] > > > (By the way, in that year of 1990-91, around 700 Kashmiri Muslims also > died > in Kashmir.) > > So what do the Panditocrats want? They want to silence the critical voices > from raising any question that they have not vetted. They want to be sole > actors, directors, and scriptwriters of this twenty yearlong story. Twenty > years of "And the world should remain silent" and only listen to us: ask > no > questions, express no doubt. If even well feted liberals like Ramchandra > Guha say that "the two critical events that… defined the epoch of > competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid and the > exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits (India after Gandhi)" then you know that > Panditocracy is not a fringe phenomenon. They have succeeded in suspending > all disbelief. > > For instance one commonsensical question, how come 200,000 or 500,000 > (fill > in any big number), are forced out of a place, and the Indian state, which > Panditocrats defend with such zeal, does nothing or remains silent. And > there is no skepticism directed towards this divine protector of life and > liberty. Even if the cause of this 'forced' migration was that every > Kashmiri Muslim (doubtful, but what the hell let me be ARKP for a moment) > was baying for KP blood, wasn't it the responsibility of Indian state > apparatus – which can station 700,000 soldiers, camp around every village > of > the valley, crackdown at a drop of an utensil – to do something. Okay, > even > if it had inadequate forces in 1990-91 and wanted for sometime to allow > people to move to safe places, why didn't it encourage them to move back > when it had adequate security? Or will the return only happen when all the > Muslims have been repatriated to Pakistan (or where ever they are to be > thrown out or made to vanish), and then the Pandits can enjoy their > purified > ancestral land (read Panun Kashmir). This is a legitimate question to ask > (Jashn-e-Azadi doesn't do that, but someone will), as legitimate as asking > of the movement in valley as to why was their minority made to feel > unsafe? > > But ask unvetted questions, and see Panditocrats piling onto you. For you > see KP's in exile makes more sense for the Indian state, than them being > in > the valley. Poignancy of Exile and Migration is more potent than the > historical messiness of politics. Poignancy, if I may point out to the > Panditocrats, is not just the migration of Pandits, but a Pandit politics > based on the triumphant return to the cleansed land of the Twice born. And > that, friends, has the possibility of making the exile a permanent > condition. > > But these are troubling thoughts… let me get back to the troubles at hand, > of refusing to see Kashmir only from the eyes of Panditocrats. I am proud > of > theses troubles, for no longer will the only conversation about Kashmir be > about 'jehad' and its 'innocent' victims. Jashn-e-Azadi has attempted, in > its own inadequate filmic way, to ask questions, join conversations, bear > witness. No wonder the Panditocracy is outraged. An outrage that is > stopping > me from going back and enjoying my special Shillong rain. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 09:15:09 2007 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:15:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Fai In-Reply-To: <106860.11475.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <73eb60090709012221k60f2bd29r871faf855a82a48a@mail.gmail.com> <106860.11475.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090709022045u69080032m159e02e4c65975c2@mail.gmail.com> Rahul saheb For somebody who has seen Begum Akhtar sing live, you can't expect to find Youtube as cool. The point is that after getting satiated with things on Utube, would the present generation stop making any efforts to go out and see things in real when live performances are still going on. I am not commenting just about you, but its about the fun and excitment of the efforts one made to go to a concert or a mushaira, or even buy a book or a record, or memorised a nazm by hearing it in a mehfil where this was more of a community/social affair rather than today's the loneliness of your computer. Yes, there is a lot of "dasht-e tanhai" in the world of computers and internet. KS On 9/3/07, Rahul Asthana wrote: > Kirdar Sahib, > I understand your sentiments.My father has an abject > loathing for anything digital.He refuses to > acknowledge emails and insists that I write in > longhand and send it via snail mail. > I still read my poetry from books.Here we were talking > about the rendition of a nazm,and about its video.Its > because of youtube that I have access to it.You can > even find a video of Begum Akhtar singing.I think its > kind of cool.Try it some time. > regards > Rahul > --- kirdar singh wrote: > > > So finally, what's there on the Youtube becomes our > > authentic > > literature and poetry. Wow. We used to read Urdu > > poetry in Urdu books, > > then came the same in Devanagri script which was > > fine as long as it > > reached more and more people. But the present > > generation will learn > > about our culture and history and poetry from Utube. > > > > Very soon the archeologist will start digging Utube > > for writing > > history, and we'll have live mushaira's on Orkut. > > > > KS > > > > --- Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > > > Yasir, > > > Iqbal was a school,in fact,Iqbal is a > > > school\university in himself.It does not matter > > > which > > > education he got. > > > Anyway,"Hum Dekhenge" clearly has mass appeal.It > > > came > > > to be more identified with Iqbal Bano than Faiz. > > > Personally ,I prefer the other Iqbal Bano Faiz > > > combo, > > > "dasht-e-tanhaai".Its also on youtube,I guess. > > > > > > regards > > > Rahul > > > --- yasir ~ wrote: > > > > > > > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that > > > both > > > > sides (or as > > > > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and > > > > Muhammad Iqbal - > > > > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri > > > quoting > > > > Meray Dil Meray > > > > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > > > > > > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an > > > > unimportant note that > > > > they both received a similar religious education > > > > while growing up in > > > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > > > sounds. > > > > > > > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum > > > > Dekhenge. it becoming an > > > > anthem during the zia years. > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > > and > > > > the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > > the > > > > subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship > > > answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - > > > Check it out. > > > > > > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > the > > > subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search > that gives answers, not web links. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 09:19:00 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:19:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0709010230k4568a66do582ae68a35e9c21a@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0709010230k4568a66do582ae68a35e9c21a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120709022049n1c9e52b2k75a0c017f1f66ec8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yasir, Could you help me this one please. This is the first "misra" of Jawab-e-Shiqwa... I am sure you have read it,it reads Jo dil se nikalte hai baat asar rakhte hain Par nahee,taqat-e-parwaaz magar rakhte hain Does par here mean..wings or but Different scholars have given me different interpretations,could you be kind with yours. Thanks and Regards Rashneek On 9/1/07, yasir ~ wrote: > > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that both sides (or as > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and Muhammad Iqbal - > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri quoting Meray Dil Meray > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an unimportant note that > they both received a similar religious education while growing up in > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that sounds. > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum Dekhenge. it becoming an > anthem during the zia years. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From mrsg at vsnl.com Mon Sep 3 10:03:43 2007 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 10:03:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? References: Message-ID: <001201c7ede3$d9045f50$dfba41db@MRAY> Dear Gargi, I have read your long letter but I do not want to argue here. I mentioned the reasons in my earlier mail. Personally I believe in no religion and when I use the term 'secular' in Indian context it means the pro-islamic pseudo-seculars only. However my only point was that everyday hindus are crossing the border and entering India from Bangladesh because of islamic onslaught. This is simple fact. Enough data on this is available in net. And you and others can decide your/their course of action on that. You may ignore, rejoice, take up some action or simply carry out intellectual acrobatics. That's your choice. Thanks M Ray From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 10:12:20 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:12:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Needs and styles of Ignorants Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709022142v3198ed3dmedd830728aea369e@mail.gmail.com> "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." - Bible Dear Mr. Tarun , I hope you would stay with the discussion , unlike your other *comrades* .I would not like to resort to name calling and "fun connections" which you have indulged in. So let me pick up few of your points randomly and start discussing it . 1. In your mail you have written, "For instance one commonsensical question, how come 200,000 or 500,000 (fill in any big number), are forced out of a place, and the Indian state, which Panditocrats defend with such zeal, does nothing or remains silent." Here you have doubted the figure , you seem to think that even 200000 Kashmiri pandits are too much which could have existed. I would not like to give you reasons or probably counter your in bracket statement of "fill in any big number" , but I would surely like you to give me a justification of your loving Hurriyat Conference and founders of blood bath in Kashmir who state that in last 17 years 120000 Kashmiri Muslims have been killed by Indian Soldiers. Going by mathematical calculation , the so called killings come to around 600 / month and means that Hurriyat claims that since last 17 years Indian soldiers kill 20 Kashmiri Muslims every day.Leave asides the army men killed. Has Mr. Tarun or Sanjay Kak ever given a though if this figure is something even a person coming straight from "NIMHANS" would believe at ? What makes Mr. Tarun believe that this world cant have 200000 Kashmiri pandits but at the same time Mr. Tarun Bhartiya is no mood to think at anything which would lend susceptibility towards those who have a waged a war against India. This surely proves where your priorities lies , so you may even blame this to "Panditocracy" and continue to live in your ignorance. 2. In your mail you have mentioned "talking to Sanjay recently, we laughed and said that only thing left for the Panditocrats was to accuse us of making threats." Tarun Bhartiya Ji , I do not want to add more to the kind of person Sanjay Kak is . A person who works against his own communities interest , probably his own nations interest , and starts laughing at his own community is the one you needed . I am sure Sanjay Kak is a reliable bet for you , and I am sure you all should know how dependable Sanjay Kak is , a person who laughs at his own community. 3. In your mail you have mentioned "Or will the return only happen when all the Muslims have been repatriated to Pakistan (or where ever they are to be thrown out or made to vanish), and then the Pandits can enjoy their purified ancestral land (read Panun Kashmir). This is a legitimate question to ask (Jashn-e-Azadi doesn't do that, but someone will), as legitimate as asking of the movement in valley as to why was their minority made to feel unsafe?" Tarun Bhartiya , you aversion to something which is purely of national interest is displayed here in the context you have mentioned Panun Kashmir . While as you are all out there to support and justify people who work on directions of Islamabad [ read Hurriyat ] , you continue to have problem with a "Panun Kashmir " word. What you do not mention is that the resolution for Panun Kashmir mentions That the Constitution of India be made applicable in letter and spirit in this *Homeland*, in order to ensure right to life, liberty, freedom of expression and faith, equality and rule of law; That the *Homeland* be placed under the Central administration with a Union territory Status, so that it evolves its own economic and political infrastructure Tarun , you seem to have problem with a demand which asks for complete integration of Kashmir with India , at least Panun Kashmir , and demands full flow of Indian constitution in Panun Kashmir. I am sure I do not have to remind you that Indian constitution is secular by nature. You have a problem with Pandits wanting that land as a Union Territory , which sends a message that we are not in a leadership tussle ,neither interested in politics. Let Govt Of India rule us directly . But then it defies your logic of supporting something "unconventional" and your inteelegessia. 4 .Tarun in your mail you have mentioned "vile and threatening comments on the blog (comments which we have quite early on and openly said we would moderate), and non-reviews of the film stalking any discussion forum, website, blog which mentions Jashn-e-Azadi …As if an event management company has been working to a script." Tarun , I know you have a reputation at stake and I know you fear losing that . I have screen shot of my comments on your blog , which were plain,relevant message , which have not been approved. The only reason was that it countered what you had written in blog and with reason. Would you mention which comment of mine was threatening ? Is sending a note ---- Sanjay , I challenge you for a debate ?" a threat or is comparison of Jashn E Azadi & Safar E Azadi of Yasin Malik a threat ? Or do you mean that these comments were stripping you down so you felt it as threatening ? Of course Kashmiri Pandits have been going to any discussion forum , we have been sending our comments in each way . There are scores of KP youths who are working on that . And why shouldn't I ? Doesn't Kashmir belong to us ? Aren't Kashmiri Pandits the original aborigines of Kashmir ? Haven't our ancestors lived in the valley of more than 5000 years . And when a history of 5000 years is destroyed overnight by fanatics and separatists , we have a right to fight for ourselves. Mr. Tarun , you have a problem with us for we don't fight with guns , we fight with pen and our keyboards . After all you have been admiring the men with guns and those work against the "system" or may I say "state" as this is that is what would be appreciated by your likes. 5. Tarun you have made a passing reference to Aditya Raj Kaul by calling him "media savvy undergraduate bluster" . That is something which made me laugh . Let me refresh your memory , that it was this so called "media savvy undergraduate bluster" who got Justice 4 Priyadarshini . It was this so called "media savvy undergraduate bluster" who made the nation stand up and rally around , which resulted in Justice getting delivered finally in a record time. It was this "media savvy undergraduate bluster" who stood for Nithari Victims , it was this "media savvy undergraduate bluster" who was nominated as India Today Youth Icon of the Year . Call it Panditocracy , if that pleases you . Or do I smell jealousy. You do not need to clarify it . I am grown up enough to understand . So are many others . 6. Tarun , in your mail you have written " But ask unvetted questions, and see Panditocrats piling onto you. For you see KP's in exile makes more sense for the Indian state, than them being in the valley. Poignancy of Exile and Migration is more potent than the historical messiness of politics. Poignancy, if I may point out to the Panditocrats, is not just the migration of Pandits, but a Pandit politics based on the triumphant return to the cleansed land of the Twice born." Tarun , I would not like to say what the Govt wants or doesn't . But I do wish to state that as Kashmiri Pandits we do not want even a single life to be wasted and falling prey to the terrorists. Today all sources say that thousands of armed terrorists are still in Kashmir and most of them fidayen. In the said circumstances , it is foolish to return , when you know that you would always be the first choice of the bullets sent from across the nation. But then Tarun , you have a problem with that . You want Pandits to be shooting ducks and guinea pigs . After all if scores are killed again , at the most you may have to avoid "readers list" for couple of weeks . 7. The there are few including you who say " Your mails sound repetitive and young friends ARKP" Tarun & Gargi ,Let me just update you that Kshemendra is a young man of nearly 60 years . This should make you aware of how well you are at your guess work.The tale of "Auschwitz" of Kashmiri pandits seems repetitive to you and you must be wondering why doesn't it get repeated in a different way so as it doesn't sound repetitive. But have you even thought that not a single terrorist has been convicted for killings of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits . Well, one of the reason is that people like you do to have courage to raise your voice against Yasin Malik & Bitta Karate. After all the six Indian Airforce Personnel killed by yasin Malik were not related to you, neither were they working for you . They were on duty for this country , and that does not matter to you , and what matters for you is "Jashn E Azadi". You keep on equating a killer like Yasin malik with Gandhi , and forget that till date Yasin Malik has neither regretted his taking up arms nor has he regretted any of his killing. But , for you he is a Gandhi and next you may compare him with Gautham Buddha or Mother Teresa. After all , anything may come from you. You may continue to enjoy you Shillong rains , and I hope someday you would invite us over as well. After all we all would like to take few lessons of Kashmiri from you in the beautiful Shillong rain and maybe then we would understand the real translation of phone conversation between SAR Geelani and others , like Sanjay Kak did. God Bless Pawan Durani From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 10:15:52 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:15:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] National Security In-Reply-To: References: <952460.49536.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120709022145l535a06e1n1e4143838991bc75@mail.gmail.com> Zainab, Sorry to disturb but Kshemendra is only 50. Old adage suits all fine Look before you leap,and think before you speak(so it would been better if would have known a lil before calling him a boy) Since apart from 4 of us rest all are superior human beings,I bow to thou knowledge. Regards Rashneek On 8/30/07, zainab wrote: > > Dear Pawan, Kshmendra, Aditya and Rashneek, > > I am a Ph.D. student based in Bangalore. I do not have TV at my home. Last > few days, I have been reading the reader-list with much more vigor than I > have done in the last 5 years since I first subscribed to this list. > > Boys, I want to thank all of you sincerely for adding so much > entertainment > to my otherwise dull Ph.D., intellectual life. For all those who say that > you are bores or should be ignored, I feel sorry for them and they need to > be ignored. I certainly cannot afford to ignore all of you. > > God bless all of you and keep the good work coming/going! > > In anticipation, > > Zainab > > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 05:38:33 -0700 (PDT), Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > Dear Sanjay > > > > I am sure that your tongue-in-cheek cheek style has given you > > satisfaction. Spiced with sarcasm which is a great device to use. (I > will > > myself be employing it in analysing the Shaina Anand transcript of your > > conversation) > > > > "Jashn-e-Azadi" is not a title SK invented. It might surprise you but > it > > has been used in the past a whole lot of times. Your sarcasm > > notwithstanding, you know that. It's been used to celebrate India's > > Independence. Not like Sanjay Kak's usage to support those who want to > > excise India, carve it up, destroy it. Or so it turned out to be. > > > > Am I overdramatising it? Sanjay you need to objectively take stock of > > the support your film has received. Map out the profiles of those people > > and evaluate what some of them stand for. SK you have provided them with > > ammunition, they celebrate your film. You are a honest hero in their > eyes. > > A supporter for break-up of India. > > > > Do you think they care that for you it was a journey of a particular > > kind and that you would never claim that your film represents the > totality > > and all dimensions of the Kashmir issue? They will and have used you to > > suit their narrow purposes. You Sanjay Kak are "complicit" as you > yourself > > admitted elsewhere. > > > > Those "Azadi" or "Hurriyat" personalities are not the only ones, but > > also those who I call the "la la landers", ostensibly loyal Indias but > for > > whom it is fashionable to attack India or support those who attack > India, > > whether by word or action or through a Sanjay Kak film. > > > > Sanjay, look around, in fact look at the communication in SARAI. For > the > > moment forget those who have been attacking you, and pay attention to > those > > who have spoken in support of you. Evaluate their rationality and > arguments > > or plain dismissiveness/ridicule of reasoned argument. You will see some > > worms coming out of the woodwork waving the flag of "Jashn-e-Azadi". As > an > > example look at the recent postings of M Yousuf. > > > > SK your "translator" role is a sadder aspect of you. It brings into > > question your personal morality and integrity. > > > > You did not go to Kashmir till 2003 and yet maintained enough > > proficiency in Kashmiri to act as a "translator" seems a bit > incredulous. > > If you do not have the language skills in Kashmiri required of a > > "translator" (especially for critical testimony in a Legal case) then > you > > are downright dishonest. It would impinge on credibility of your > > character. A few hours of conversation with you in Kashmiri would make > it > > clear either way. > > > > SK, you come out worse if you do have enough competence in Kashmiri to > > act as a "translator". > > > > A translation of "Ye kyah Korvu?" can be only be "What is this you > > people have done" or singular in a respectful tone "What is this that > you > > have done". There is no other translation possible. Need I add more > about > > how SK reportedly translated it and the possible implications both on > the > > testimony and SK's honesty and motives? > > > > That your "translation" was thrown out is hardly the issue, nor that > > Geelani received the "death sentence". > > > > Incidentally, I personally am totally and vehemently against the > "death > > sentence" in it's cold pronouncement or execution by any Institution for > > whatever reason or crime. > > > > Sanjay, here is what I propose if you are interested. Get in touch > with > > these KPs who have been hounding you. Offer them a screening of your > > "Jash-e-Azadi". Offer to discuss your role as a film-maker. Listen to > what > > they have to say. Listen to their ventings. > > > > You might be moved enough to make another film with an alternate > > perspective. It might be another journey for you. One where you will not > > be depending on some people making available "found footage" > > > > It requires both moral and artistic courage. > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak wrote: > > > > >> Since the Sarai Reader list is fast emerging as the nerve centre for > > keeping track of National (and Anti-National) interest, I thought it my > > duty > > to make some humble offerings: > > > > On August 15, 2007 Indian Independence Day (what some linguistically > > misguided souls refer to as *Jashn-e-Azadi) *the Habitat centre in Delhi > > was > > once again the venue of something possibly troubling. A musical > programme > > called â€" yes, believe it or not â€" *Jashn-e-Azadi* was held > > there. While they > > said it was just some patriotic songs and ghazals and so on, this could > be > > subterfuge. After all there is a film with a similar title doing the > > rounds which may be up to some mischief; and then there is this > separatist > > leader involved in something called *Safar-e-Azadi.* As a good citizen > I'm > > just sharing this information which others may want to act upon. > > > > I was also wondering: could my role in translating the Police phone tap > on > > the Delhi University lecturer SAR Geelani in the Parliament Attack case > > also > > be considered by the Sarai list a little differently? Though my > > translation > > from Kashmiri into English was summarily thrown out by the Trial Court > on > > the grounds that I was an interested party (as a member of the All India > > Defence Committee for SAR Geelani), I mean, that court *did* pass a > death > > sentence on Shree Geelani, did it not? Could my lack of success as a > > translator not be seen as a mark of my Patriotism? Just a thought, > however > > ghoulish... > > > > With thanks in anticipation > > > > Sanjay Kak > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! > > FareChase. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 10:34:51 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:34:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] To Tarun Bhartiya Message-ID: <13df7c120709022204k64882c4epa0612b81bef4eb8@mail.gmail.com> Friends,since Tarun has a problem with my semantics and use of words like Twice Born,I change my semantics and henceforth shall myself a Kafir.Hopethat satitates Tarun"the great" Bhartiya.A couple of lines on my re-christening. I always wrote the best verse The teacher would often say This pandit boy will be a poet one day My pen drew images Of Kashmir, Meadows and pines Springs and brooks Snow and shine Alas, I forgot….I was a Pandit too, Soon they will come To take me away To the cold street And shoot me down My blood will freeze Before it oozes My verse go numb My voice, dumb The azan would rise And the warriors of God Will soon find Another Voice to quell Another pandit to kill The morning news(Greater Kashmir,Jashn-e-Azadi's official newspaper) would read A KAFIR dead on a cold street -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 10:54:58 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:54:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] National Security In-Reply-To: <6750c797633fa6c49213a9e7f7a7f691@mail.xtdnet.nl> References: <13df7c120709022145l535a06e1n1e4143838991bc75@mail.gmail.com> <6750c797633fa6c49213a9e7f7a7f691@mail.xtdnet.nl> Message-ID: <13df7c120709022224j540a5e17m2298e49b2e4d33bd@mail.gmail.com> Zainab bi, You got it wrong again. Aditya is only 18. As for TRP's only saanp seedi,and ganna bajaana shows have them these days.Even Aditya's heroics in Priyadarshini Mattoo and Jessica Lal campaing had less TRP's than Suffer-e-Azadi shows. People actually prefer K type villians and if K means Kashmir more the merrier because you dont need to find villians.With Yasin Malik and Bitta Karate ready for roles and movie directors ready to cast them TRPs wouldnt be a problem. Thanks again. Rashneek On 9/3/07, zainab wrote: > > Dear old boys A.R.K.P. (as you are now fondly referred to), > > I must admit that this entertainment is now becoming very boring and > predictable, like Ekta Kapoor's 'K' serials which have no marrative or > story but just keep dragging. So I am sorry to say that I now need to > switch channels. > > In one of my earlier emails, I had expressed my sense of upset with some > parts of Shuddha's response to Pawan because I thought this was becoming > an > 'us-versus-them' battle, but now I realize that there is no sincere > engagement on your part. All that you can offer is the rhetoric of your > pain and memories without any consistency in argument and logic. This is > inevitably becoming an us-versus-them argument whether Shuddha or I or > anyone else deems it or not. > > As for superiority of the rest of us and inferiority of the four of you, I > am pompous enough to say that yes, some of us are indeed superior in this > thread of conversation because we have been trying to see the logic of > your > argument and engage with it rather than retort, retort and more retort. > > So here's a big thank you to four of you old boys for giving me the > opportunity to clarify and reason our my logics and concepts and thanks a > ton for all the entertainment that you have been providing on this list > all > along. But now it's time to swtich channels. I guess your T.R.P. ratings > will soon see a dive down! > > Best, > > Zainab > > > > > On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:15:52 +0530, "rashneek kher" > wrote: > > Zainab, > > > > Sorry to disturb but Kshemendra is only 50. > > Old adage suits all fine > > > > Look before you leap,and think before you speak(so it would been better > if > > would have known a lil before calling him a boy) > > Since apart from 4 of us rest all are superior human beings,I bow to > thou > > knowledge. > > > > Regards > > > > Rashneek > > > > > > On 8/30/07, zainab wrote: > >> > >> Dear Pawan, Kshmendra, Aditya and Rashneek, > >> > >> I am a Ph.D. student based in Bangalore. I do not have TV at my home. > > Last > >> few days, I have been reading the reader-list with much more vigor than > > I > >> have done in the last 5 years since I first subscribed to this list. > >> > >> Boys, I want to thank all of you sincerely for adding so much > >> entertainment > >> to my otherwise dull Ph.D., intellectual life. For all those who say > > that > >> you are bores or should be ignored, I feel sorry for them and they need > > to > >> be ignored. I certainly cannot afford to ignore all of you. > >> > >> God bless all of you and keep the good work coming/going! > >> > >> In anticipation, > >> > >> Zainab > >> > >> > >> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 05:38:33 -0700 (PDT), Kshmendra Kaul > >> wrote: > >> > Dear Sanjay > >> > > >> > I am sure that your tongue-in-cheek cheek style has given you > >> > satisfaction. Spiced with sarcasm which is a great device to use. (I > >> will > >> > myself be employing it in analysing the Shaina Anand transcript of > > your > >> > conversation) > >> > > >> > "Jashn-e-Azadi" is not a title SK invented. It might surprise you > > but > >> it > >> > has been used in the past a whole lot of times. Your sarcasm > >> > notwithstanding, you know that. It's been used to celebrate India's > >> > Independence. Not like Sanjay Kak's usage to support those who want > to > >> > excise India, carve it up, destroy it. Or so it turned out to be. > >> > > >> > Am I overdramatising it? Sanjay you need to objectively take stock > > of > >> > the support your film has received. Map out the profiles of those > > people > >> > and evaluate what some of them stand for. SK you have provided them > > with > >> > ammunition, they celebrate your film. You are a honest hero in their > >> eyes. > >> > A supporter for break-up of India. > >> > > >> > Do you think they care that for you it was a journey of a > particular > >> > kind and that you would never claim that your film represents the > >> totality > >> > and all dimensions of the Kashmir issue? They will and have used you > > to > >> > suit their narrow purposes. You Sanjay Kak are "complicit" as you > >> yourself > >> > admitted elsewhere. > >> > > >> > Those "Azadi" or "Hurriyat" personalities are not the only ones, > but > >> > also those who I call the "la la landers", ostensibly loyal Indias > but > >> for > >> > whom it is fashionable to attack India or support those who attack > >> India, > >> > whether by word or action or through a Sanjay Kak film. > >> > > >> > Sanjay, look around, in fact look at the communication in SARAI. > For > >> the > >> > moment forget those who have been attacking you, and pay attention to > >> those > >> > who have spoken in support of you. Evaluate their rationality and > >> arguments > >> > or plain dismissiveness/ridicule of reasoned argument. You will see > > some > >> > worms coming out of the woodwork waving the flag of "Jashn-e-Azadi". > > As > >> an > >> > example look at the recent postings of M Yousuf. > >> > > >> > SK your "translator" role is a sadder aspect of you. It brings > into > >> > question your personal morality and integrity. > >> > > >> > You did not go to Kashmir till 2003 and yet maintained enough > >> > proficiency in Kashmiri to act as a "translator" seems a bit > >> incredulous. > >> > If you do not have the language skills in Kashmiri required of a > >> > "translator" (especially for critical testimony in a Legal case) then > >> you > >> > are downright dishonest. It would impinge on credibility of your > >> > character. A few hours of conversation with you in Kashmiri would > make > >> it > >> > clear either way. > >> > > >> > SK, you come out worse if you do have enough competence in Kashmiri > > to > >> > act as a "translator". > >> > > >> > A translation of "Ye kyah Korvu?" can be only be "What is this you > >> > people have done" or singular in a respectful tone "What is this that > >> you > >> > have done". There is no other translation possible. Need I add more > >> about > >> > how SK reportedly translated it and the possible implications both on > >> the > >> > testimony and SK's honesty and motives? > >> > > >> > That your "translation" was thrown out is hardly the issue, nor > that > >> > Geelani received the "death sentence". > >> > > >> > Incidentally, I personally am totally and vehemently against the > >> "death > >> > sentence" in it's cold pronouncement or execution by any Institution > > for > >> > whatever reason or crime. > >> > > >> > Sanjay, here is what I propose if you are interested. Get in touch > >> with > >> > these KPs who have been hounding you. Offer them a screening of your > >> > "Jash-e-Azadi". Offer to discuss your role as a film-maker. Listen to > >> what > >> > they have to say. Listen to their ventings. > >> > > >> > You might be moved enough to make another film with an alternate > >> > perspective. It might be another journey for you. One where you will > > not > >> > be depending on some people making available "found footage" > >> > > >> > It requires both moral and artistic courage. > >> > > >> > > >> > Kshmendra Kaul > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Sanjay Kak wrote: > >> > > > >> >> Since the Sarai Reader list is fast emerging as the nerve centre for > >> > keeping track of National (and Anti-National) interest, I thought it > > my > >> > duty > >> > to make some humble offerings: > >> > > >> > On August 15, 2007 Indian Independence Day (what some linguistically > >> > misguided souls refer to as *Jashn-e-Azadi) *the Habitat centre in > > Delhi > >> > was > >> > once again the venue of something possibly troubling. A musical > >> programme > >> > called â€" yes, believe it or not â€" *Jashn-e-Azadi* was held > >> > there. While they > >> > said it was just some patriotic songs and ghazals and so on, this > > could > >> be > >> > subterfuge. After all there is a film with a similar title doing the > >> > rounds which may be up to some mischief; and then there is this > >> separatist > >> > leader involved in something called *Safar-e-Azadi.* As a good > citizen > >> I'm > >> > just sharing this information which others may want to act upon. > >> > > >> > I was also wondering: could my role in translating the Police phone > > tap > >> on > >> > the Delhi University lecturer SAR Geelani in the Parliament Attack > > case > >> > also > >> > be considered by the Sarai list a little differently? Though my > >> > translation > >> > from Kashmiri into English was summarily thrown out by the Trial > Court > >> on > >> > the grounds that I was an interested party (as a member of the All > > India > >> > Defence Committee for SAR Geelani), I mean, that court *did* pass a > >> death > >> > sentence on Shree Geelani, did it not? Could my lack of success as a > >> > translator not be seen as a mark of my Patriotism? Just a thought, > >> however > >> > ghoulish... > >> > > >> > With thanks in anticipation > >> > > >> > Sanjay Kak > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > --------------------------------- > >> > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > > Yahoo! > >> > FareChase. > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 11:07:14 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:07:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Ms Sengupta , I would quickly go thorogh few questions you have put forward to me. 1. You have mentioned that few appeals of terrorists in Kashmir for return of Kashmiri Pandits to valley may be sincere . However have you ever read anywhere that the same people have ever tried to get the killers of Kashmiri pandits to Justice ? What makes you believe that we should believe them ,when even now threats are being issued to kashmiri pandits , and the so called moderate just express their helplessness. 2. The mosque where you went to with your friend in Khankah was a kali temple. Till 1989 we just used to pray by applying vermillion on the wall of that temple. Did your friend tell you about that ? 3. You too are one who believe that jagmohan made kashmiri pandits leave the valley. What more can an example of a perfect brainwash. Would any sane person , unless feeling insecure, leave his home at the call of someone ? Would someone leave his home, orchards to live in tent without a penny in his pocket just because jagmohan asked him to do so. You have no knowledge . You are explaining the reason of my exodus to me . You have no idea of how I felt when i was alone in my house with my mother and sister with thousands of gun carrying mobs running carzily outside.Youhave no idea when my two neigbours includinga 88 year old person were killed and labelled mukhbirs. Thank you for first explaining me how to translate Kashmiri rightly and now a bigger thanks for explaining to me why I had to leave Kashmir and had to live in exile. God Bless Pawan Durani On 9/2/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear all, dear Pawan, > > I totally agree with Pawan Durani that an accounting for the genocidial > violence unleashed by the regimes that were in power in the Soviet > Union, and the one that continues to be in power in the Peoples Republic > of China is necessary.I say this, as someone who was raised within the > Communist tradition, and as someone who has no hesitation in saying that > I continue to hope for a stateless, classless global society, free of > nations, corporate profit and war, if not in my lifetime, then at least > in the lifetime of generations to come. Everyone has their own vision of > a better world, I have mine, parts of which or all of which I might > share with the visions of others, as they might share theirs with mine, > and I do not see any reason to be apologetic for that vision. I say this > because I have no shame, or regret in calling myself a Communist. I am > not now, nor ever have been a member of any communist party, but just as > I hope it is possible for people to consider themselves Hindu even if > they were not member of the RSS, or Muslims even if they did not > necessarily subscribe to a specific jamaat, or Christians who followed > the example of Christ rather than the doctrine of an organized church, I > do believe that it is possible to consider oneself a non-party Communist. > > Communists, more than anyone else, must deal with, account for and take > responsibility for the fact that their convictions were perverted and > held hostage by ruling formations, cliques and classes that led to some > of the most vicious and ruthless dictatorships known to human history. > They must account for letting this happen, even when they were > themselves the first and most frequent victims of these regimes. Their > being victims of Stalin's purges does not excuse them from the > responsibility of creating a figure like Stalin in the first place. The > totalitarian nightmare of Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, Caesescu's Rumania > or Hoxha's Albania are not a legacy that anyone can be proud of. Nor can > we be proud of the intrigue and petty authoritarianisms that mark the > Trotskyite and Maoist or Marxist Leninist formations that continue to > function, after a fashion, in our midst. > > I say this knowing that the majority of those who perished in Stalin's > gulag, were, Communists. When Leon Trotsky ordered soldiers to fire on > the striking sailors of the Kronstadt, he was a communist sanctioning > the murder of communist militants. The millions who died in Siberia, who > went to forced labour camps, were Communists. They went to the firing > squad singing the Internationale - a song whose jaunty tune still has > the capacity to lift my spirits on a glum day. And I love to whistle it > when it rains.Still, It breaks my heart to hear it sung, because it is a > song sung by executioners and by those that thyt executed, but hey, who > said the world was a simple place where it all works out in the end? > Everything is messy, and each of our histories is part of the mess. > > All this happenned, in my opinion, because, the nationalist logic of > 'Socialism in One Country' and/or a tragic romance with the > intoxication of newly won state power perverted the deeply democratic > and internationalist elan of the global communist movement beyond > imagination. From a movement that actively desired the withering away of > the state, it became a political formation that presided over the > withering away of society, of everything but the state. This is an > object lesson for all revolutionaries and insurgents. Yesterday's > fighters for freedom often become tomorrows prison wardens. I know of no > exceptions. > > The logic of Capital is not necessarily a logic of private property. > Advanced forms of Capitalism actually abolish private property, > concentrating socially produced wealth in giant coroporate abstractions > far more efficiently than 'nationalization' by so called socialist > regimes can. What happenned in the Soviet Union, China and the erstwhile > so called 'Peoples Democracies' was not 'socialism, or communism' but a > monstrous amalgam of Capital and the State in the name of saving, yes, > the Nation State. That is why there is no contradiction between the > hyper capitalism that prevails in China today and the twisted dialectic > of Mao Zedong thought. That is why Stalinists adore big dams, nuclear > power and nuclear weapons to the extent that they do. > > Our own so called Communist Parties are no exception. I would like to > illustrate this with an example that has current relevance, which has > been gestured to even in the link that Pawan Durani has forwarded in one > of his recent postings, and which might be of interest to some - I am > talking of the current impasse over what is being called the 'nuclear > deal' with the United States of America. Having deceived most people in > this country, that they were against the Nuclear Weapons programme, they > (the mainstream parliamentary left, led by the two so called Communist > Parties) have now come around to a public posture of trying to create a > protective 'fence' around our own weaponization programme, which is what > they mean as 'strategic autonomy' under the banner of national > sovereignty. In doing this, they have come full circle, and are now > saying more or less exactly what the BJP has been saying all along. They > are also in the same ideological boat as the ruling juntas in Islamabad, > Tehran and Tel Aviv, which are also committed, overtly and sometimes > covertly, to their own 'patriotic' nuclear deterrents. > > I am not an advocate of the 1-2-3 Treaty that will lock India locked > into a military embrace with the United States. I am totally opposed to > it, and I think that it will put us all in harm's way. But I think that > the only way to oppose it is to insist on de-nuclearization - by arguing > for the scrapping of the nuclear weapons fantasies of our ruling elites > and by creating a sharp and coherent opposition to the idea of India > becoming some sort of super power in Asia. This process (of achieving > super power status) will being untold misery on the people who live in > this country and in Asia at large. The greedy fantasy of energy security > which makes our ruling elites salivate at the thought of sending Indian > troops to guard 'indian' interests and assets in central asia is > something that sends shivers down my spines. For the sake of all our > futures, I hope such dreams are never realized. They will lead us > straight towards war, and disaster. > > But our mainstream parliamentary left is as involved in living out this > fantasy as anyone else is. It's argument for 'strategic autonomy' means > that it wants to keep India's arsenal of nuclear weapons, wants to > strike a patriotic pose, and is willing at a pinch, basically to hand > this country back to the right reaction of the BJP - all in the name of > proving how nationalist they are. The red in their flags is turning > slowly to saffron. > > The choice that we could be making as a society is not one of choosing > to strike alliances between an Imperialist United States or a fascist > Iran, or an expansionist China. The only choice worth making is that of > jettisoning nuclear weapons, demilitarizing South Asia, firstly by > finding a solution to Kashmir that is acceptable to the majority of the > people who live there, by making peace with our neighbours, and by > ending the military occupations of the north eastern territories. It is > a sign of the poverty of political imaginations in this country today > that these choices are precisely those that the so called 'left' parties > are bent on jettisoning but clinging to their new found doctrine of > 'strategic autonomy', which puts them straight in bed, whether they like > it or not, with the Bharatiya Janata Party. > > It was nationalism that perverted the communist ideal. That made the > Soviet Union travel a distance from being the product of a revolution > that had abolished the standing army to becoming a power that could only > sustain itself with brute military force, and then not at all. > > From a conviction that held only one thing sacred, and that being that > the world should have no walls, it became an ideology that built walls > and the barbed wire fences of the gulag. From a form of political > culture that privileged the widest liberty, with Rosa Luxemburg stating > that freedom of expression is not freedom unless it is for those who are > against us - communist parties travelled a long distance - to presiding > over the routine suffocation of all dissent with a banal brutality. > > And for all this, I hold the virus of nationalism, to a large measure > responsible. That is why though I have no quarrel with people who use > the label socialist, communist, or even anarchist to describe my > positions, I will never agree to be called a nationalist. When you put > nationalism and socialism together, you get something called National > Socialism. And effectively, there is little for me to choose between the > National Socialism that prevailed in Germany from 1933 to 1945 and the > Socialist Nationalism that prevailed in USSR, for the better part of the > twentieth century, and that continues to prevail in China today. The > differences that do exist are not of kind, but of degree. > > I am willing to accept the necessity to conduct a personal atonement for > the millions who perished under regimes that called themselves > communist. I personally think that it is the responsibility of anyone > who calls himself or herself a communist today to undertake to mourn for > all those who were (or are being) killed or displaced or imprisoned or > imprisoned in the name of communism, to repent and ask for forgiveness. > > Because I am a communist, I hold nothing higher than humanity - > ordinary simple humanity - just the worth of human beings as human > beings, in all their unpredictable, unscriptable variety. Neither > nations, nor parties, nor god, nor gods, nor any ideal or abstraction of > progress can be more important than the health and well being of a > child, or the freedom to do with our time, our leisure and our labour > power as we see fit. I do not want martyrs or heroes, I want to live my > life with ordinary people, doing ordinary things. I want no one I love > or care for to have to die for the sake of a flag or any abstract idea, > because flags and abstractions cannot feed, clothe or shelter human > beings with dignity or liberty for all. > > This does not mean that we abandon politics, it just means that we work > very hard to fashion a politics that does not demand the sacrificial > offering of our humanity on a daily, hourly basis. I am willing to > engage with anyone, no matter what they believe in, who is sincerely > committed to this enterprise. But it does require us all to take a long > and hard look at ourselves. I want to know which political ideology, > which nation, which religious faith has not, in the history of humanity > demanded and received its due in blood. Everyone can claim the status of > victims for themselves, and everyone has the blood of others on their > hands. And the arithmetic of who has killed more, and who has killed > less is far less interesting than the more difficult and demanding task > of accounting for the actions of the executioners on your own side. > > What I want to know is, will those who call themselves nationalists > undertake to mourn for all those who have been killed in order that > their beloved and sacred nations remain the fictions that they are on > the map of the world? > > For me, the communist idea remains what it was for the Communards of the > Paris Commune, for the partisans of the Petersburgh Soviet and for the > Workers and Peasant Councils of Republican Spain - that of a world, and > a social order where people, not corporations or governments, control > the relations they enter into in order to produce the things that make > life possible and worth living. A world without armies, states, police > forces, intelligence agencies, weapons traders, or factories that > pollute the earth or poison peoples bodies. A world without alienated > and alienating labour. Where each of us labour according to our > capacities and receive the fruits of our labour according to our > neends. Where we begin to move from the shackles of necessity to the > emancipation of desire. > > For this reason, I am willing most of all, to look hard and long at the > legacies that I have inherited, and subject them to the sharpest > possible critique if they are found poor and wanting in relation to the > dream of a just and free world. If this list is a place where we can all > begin this process of reflection on the limitations and areas of > darkness within all that we profess and have inherited - whether as > liberals, islamists, hindutva-vadis, secularists, nationalists, cynics > and sceptics then it will be worth the provocation that Pawan Durani has > put before us. I thought I would rise to the bait, and risk making a > fool of myself, if necessary. Of course, if we all think that none of us > have anything to reflect on or atone for, I, and I hope Pawan, will be > sorely disappointed. > > Your turn Pawan. Tell me what you think is wrong with the fact that the > Indian state killed so many thousands of people in Kashmir. Do you think > there is anything wrong? Or would you like to pass over these > thousands of deaths in silence. > > I have heard more than the odd person with separatist sentiments in > Kashmir make the gesture of apology for the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, > and for the death of Kashmiri pandits, for the destruction of their > property. Sometimes the sadness and regret in that apology is a ritual, > but often it is not fake. I walked with a friend in Srinagar one night > in the vicinity of the Khanqah and mosque of Shah Hamadan, and he > pointed out to me a place close by the bank of the river where a shrine > once stood, and then we both stood in front of it in silence for a > while. And he tried to find words to talk about the strange days of > 1989. It wasn't easy for him, and I did not make it easy for him, but > the conversation did not damage our friendship. > > He told me what I knew already, about the way Jagmohan, then then > governor of Jammu and Kashmir, engineered the exodus, about the rumours > and panic that was spread through the grapevines carefully cultivated by > the state, and about the painful slogans in the streets. All this I > know, we all know. But he also said, "It was wrong of the state to make > them go, It was wrong on the part of those that created the climate of > fear (and he meant the separatists, or those within their ranks who had > undoubtedly attacked some high profile Kasmiri Pandit individualsr, and > it was wrong on their part for them to go and to leave us at the mercy > of the state, but it was also wrong on our part that we did so little to > make them stay". > > I want you to think carefully and tell me if you can respect this > feeling of loss? I agree that you have every reason for your pain, but > what if I said, abandoning those who were your neighbours also gave them > no opportunity to heal or at least address your pain. Have you ever > considered what it is like to be yourself, when someone who is not you, > who is the other, is no longer there to speak to, to be with, to be > different from? What is the strange loss we feel when the person we > think is our most intense antagonist leaves us alone to be with > ourselves? For many Kashmiri's who remain where they have always lived, > who did not have places to go to where the Indian army would not hound > them, perhaps It comes from a strange and difficult to explain sense of > loss at seeing the abandonment of their neighbours home. Perhaps It > comes from the unease of knowing that no 'azadi' will ever be complete > if it is won at the cost of the exodus of a minority. Sometimes it comes > from the memory of a Pandit school master in a village school who > suddenly disappeared on that night that you all mention. > > I always find it interesting to come to that point when someone says > that his or her people have done something wrong. Often it means > risking being called a traitor. I think in our times, traitors are > saints. Imperfect, flawed, awkward saints, but the only kind that I can > light a candle to. So all heretics are my friends. They make it possible > for people in the camps of their enemies undertake necessary acts of > counter-treason. When two traitors meet from opposite sides, there is > the possibility of an encounter very different from the kind that > normally gets scripted by the security forces of our beleagured > republic. There is the possibility of an unpredictable conversation. > This list, over the past few days, has been the setting for some > unpredictable conversations, I do not wish them to end. > > I am a traitor, and many communists will call me one for saying the > things that I have said in this post in response to your provocation. > But then I think that sometimes, treason is the only honorable thing. > > However, I have yet to come across a Indian nationalist ideologue who > believes Kashmir to be an indivisible part of India express any regret > over the thousands of Kashmiri Muslims who were killed by Indian > soldiers or who disappeared in the nineties in Kashmir, or about the > thousands who were tortured or imprisoned, because all this happenned to > keep Kashmir's within the map of India. For them, this violence was > justified and necessary. Those deaths were necessary. > > You may meet many communists who will say that the killing of millions > in the Soviet Union or in China was justified and necessary. I am not > one of them, and there are many others like me. But I am still looking > for the Indian nationalist who is willing to say sorry for Kashmir, for > Manipur, for Nagaland. > > Perhaps you could be the one who makes a beginning. Try it out in your > head and tell me what it feels like. Reject it if you want, but at least > try it out. And tell me what it feels like for a moment to be a little > larger than your own corner of the pain that engulfs us all. Please do > share your feeling with this list. > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > With the passing of communism into history as an ideological alternative > to > > democracy it is time to do some accounting of its human costs. > > > > http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 11:12:08 2007 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:12:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Let Truth Prevail Message-ID: <4fcaee300709022242m7ea30c64o3bd09d8816ddef00@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Tarun Bhartiya's post has essentially demonstrated that punctuation marks in histories cannot be read as the history. The discussion (by a few at least) on this list has so far been trying to wrap an entire stretch of J&K history in an extremely inadequate punctuation mark. What Tarun brings up by advancing the conversation is that it unravels how an average Indian citizen got introduced to the Kashmir conflict in early 1990's. Secondly, it examines the claims of "holocaust of a minority". Third, it attempts to interrogate the "number game" that generates an argument of victimhood out of the punctuation narratives. Fourth, it raises questions about the flight of Kashmiri Pandits in the light of their unshaken faith in the Indian state, and, very importantly, informs the questions more as to the Kashmiri movement and why the minority felt 'unsafe'. It's very important to understand the status of Kashmiri Pandits in the Indian power structure. Post 1947, majority of people in Kashmir never accepted India as their country. New Delhi desperately needed its constituency, a trusted brigade, in the Valley. Hand picked politicians filled the gap but the control over public opinion and information flow came from the only trusted Pandit minority. Subsequently, Kashmiri Pandits not only became eyes and ears for India in Kashmir but also came very close to the power structure in New Delhi. They assumed the centre stage and became a 'lever' vis-à-vis policy on Kashmir. The Pakistani politicians and junta too had a handy issue in Kashmir for their rabble-rousing. In fact, Kashmir became the only issue where Islamabad's establishment and its public had a meeting point, and the issue was conveniently used to subvert the internal dissent in that country. The year 1990 saw a mass uprising in Kashmir, a revolution if you will. Kashmiri Pandits had to migrate/were made to migrate/chose to migrate! Contesting claims, yet to be interrogated dispassionately… But the important question is who benefited from this flight of the Hindu minority? I suppose, as is evident from most of the post 1990 writings on Kashmir and the movement there (including mainstream media), it has been the Indian state. Indian state found a very politically motivated and crafted argument in the shape of the Kashmiri Pandit exodus, allowing it to brand the movement for right to self determination in Kashmir as "Islamic terrorism". The book "My frozen turbulence in Kashmir" by one of the most famous, or should it be infamous, Governor in Kashmir (read ruler), Jagmohan, is testimony to this. There is no doubt that the Kashmir's movement has been greatly influenced by Islam. But, New Delhi has all along used, and sometimes successfully, the exodus of Kashmiri Hindus as a tool to strip off the Kashmir movement its political content. So in essence, Kashmiri Pandits, as a community, has been used as a political tool against another community – Kashmiri Muslims. Let's say it: some among them have conveniently agreed to be used and some have unwittingly been used. I believe the silent majority of Pandits do not approve the methods of A.R.K.P. brigade. Or, at least are lukewarm to this approach. In my cumulative understanding so far, it appears that the exodus of Kashmir's Hindu minority was a result of the movement for political rights in the state attempting to achieve democratization of power within its population. I believe it later got reversed by the use of Indian forces through impunity and imposition of black laws that suspend rule of law. So finally, the Pandit exodus as it exists so far in the mainstream political discourse, scuttled efforts at real democratization. In this background it is very important to bring in the narrative of those Kashmiri Pandits in their thousands who continue to live inside the valley. The Pandits were complicit in this contextual murder of the larger truth perhaps because they for the first time felt like a minority in Kashmir. The continued trumped up association of the likes of A.R.K.P. with the Hindu majority of a state of a billion people is a testimony, and goes against the grain of being a Kashmiri citizen. Best, Wali From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 11:17:26 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:17:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120709022247h11a8b5b5q210b584ebc67b404@mail.gmail.com> Shudda, In case you wish to really delve into history of Kashmir to have a meaningful discussion please read Baharaistan-i-Shahi.I am a giving a Muslim historian because most here will say Hindu historians would lie. Here are some excerpts *The source of the texts is Bahiristan-i-Shahi.I am quoting without even changing a line. "Sultan Shihabu'd-Din addressed himself to such works as would help him get peace in the world hereafter. He arranged a tomb and a burial place for himself to be used after his death. Towards the fag end of his life, he was infused with a zeal for demolishing idol-houses and destroying the temples and idols of the infidels. He destroyed the massive temple at Beejeh Belareh [31] (Bijbehara). He had designs to destroy all the temples and put an end to the entire community of the infidels.[32] " "Again it needs to be recorded that for some of the time which the holy Amir spent in Kashmir he lived in a sarai at 'Alau'd-Din Pora. At the site where his khanqah was built, there existed a small temple which was demolished and converted into an estrade on which he offered namaz (prayer) five times a day and recited portions of the Qur'an morning and evening. Sultan Qutbu'd-Din occasionally * *Some more Muslim Historians for you...* *After the death of Sultan-Qutubdin,he was succeeded by his son Sultan Sikandar who needs no introduction. "Sikandar But-shikan or Sikandar the Iconoclast" burnt or destroyed as many temples as he could lay his hands on. He killed thousands of Hindus and converted lacs. One significant detail is that three kharwars (one kharwar is approximately equal to eighty kilograms) of Hindu ceremonial thread (zunnar) were burnt by Sultan Sikandar. (Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami, Pir Ghulam Hasan, Vol II, RPD,* Srinagar 1954.).His period was a period of utter darkness and barbarianism in the history of Kashmir.This is what historians (mostly muslims)have to say about him**.**"He [Sikandar] prohibited all types of frugal games. Nobody dared commit acts which were prohibited by the **Sharia* *.. The Sultãn was constantly busy in annihilating the infidels and destroyed most of the temples..." (Haidar Malik Chãdurãh: Tãrîkh-i-Kashmîr; edited and translated into English by Razia Bano, Delhi, 1991, p. 55.)"[he] strived to destroy the idols and temples of the infidels. He got demolished the famous temple of **Mahãdeva* * at Bahrãre. The temple was dug out from its foundations and the hole (that remained) reached the water level. Another temple at Jagdar was also demolished… Rãjã Alamãdat had got a big temple constructed at **Sinpur* *. (...) the temple was destroyed [by Sikandar]." (Khwãjah Nizãmu'd- Dîn Ahmad bin Muhammad Muqîm al-Harbî: Tabqãt-i-Akbarî translated by B. De, Calcutta, 1973)"Sikander burnt all books the same wise as fire burns hay". "All the scintillating works faced destruction in the same manner that lotus flowers face with the onset of frosty winter." (Srivara, Zaina Rajtarangini).Many mosques were constructed from the debris of broken hindu temples. Iskandarpora was laid out on the debris of the destroyed temples of Hindus. In the neighbourhood of the royal palace in Iskandarpora, the Sultan destroyed the temple of Maha Shri which had been built by Pravarasena and another one built by Tarapida. The material from these was used for constructing a Jami' mosque in the middle of the city* ** If this isnt enough,please ask for more. I suggest you read entire history of Kashmir before you try being an expert on it. Regards Rashneek On 9/3/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Ms Sengupta , > > I would quickly go thorogh few questions you have put forward to me. > > 1. You have mentioned that few appeals of terrorists in Kashmir for return > of Kashmiri Pandits to valley may be sincere . However have you ever read > anywhere that the same people have ever tried to get the killers of > Kashmiri > pandits to Justice ? What makes you believe that we should believe them > ,when even now threats are being issued to kashmiri pandits , and the so > called moderate just express their helplessness. > > 2. The mosque where you went to with your friend in Khankah was a kali > temple. Till 1989 we just used to pray by applying vermillion on the wall > of > that temple. Did your friend tell you about that ? > > 3. You too are one who believe that jagmohan made kashmiri pandits leave > the > valley. What more can an example of a perfect brainwash. Would any sane > person , unless feeling insecure, leave his home at the call of someone ? > Would someone leave his home, orchards to live in tent without a penny in > his pocket just because jagmohan asked him to do so. > > You have no knowledge . You are explaining the reason of my exodus to me . > You have no idea of how I felt when i was alone in my house with my mother > and sister with thousands of gun carrying mobs running carzily > outside.Youhave no idea when my two neigbours includinga 88 year old > person were killed > and labelled mukhbirs. > > Thank you for first explaining me how to translate Kashmiri rightly and > now > a bigger thanks for explaining to me why I had to leave Kashmir and had to > live in exile. > > God Bless > > Pawan Durani > > > > > On 9/2/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear all, dear Pawan, > > > > I totally agree with Pawan Durani that an accounting for the genocidial > > violence unleashed by the regimes that were in power in the Soviet > > Union, and the one that continues to be in power in the Peoples Republic > > of China is necessary.I say this, as someone who was raised within the > > Communist tradition, and as someone who has no hesitation in saying that > > I continue to hope for a stateless, classless global society, free of > > nations, corporate profit and war, if not in my lifetime, then at least > > in the lifetime of generations to come. Everyone has their own vision of > > a better world, I have mine, parts of which or all of which I might > > share with the visions of others, as they might share theirs with mine, > > and I do not see any reason to be apologetic for that vision. I say this > > because I have no shame, or regret in calling myself a Communist. I am > > not now, nor ever have been a member of any communist party, but just as > > I hope it is possible for people to consider themselves Hindu even if > > they were not member of the RSS, or Muslims even if they did not > > necessarily subscribe to a specific jamaat, or Christians who followed > > the example of Christ rather than the doctrine of an organized church, I > > do believe that it is possible to consider oneself a non-party > Communist. > > > > Communists, more than anyone else, must deal with, account for and take > > responsibility for the fact that their convictions were perverted and > > held hostage by ruling formations, cliques and classes that led to some > > of the most vicious and ruthless dictatorships known to human history. > > They must account for letting this happen, even when they were > > themselves the first and most frequent victims of these regimes. Their > > being victims of Stalin's purges does not excuse them from the > > responsibility of creating a figure like Stalin in the first place. The > > totalitarian nightmare of Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, Caesescu's Rumania > > or Hoxha's Albania are not a legacy that anyone can be proud of. Nor can > > we be proud of the intrigue and petty authoritarianisms that mark the > > Trotskyite and Maoist or Marxist Leninist formations that continue to > > function, after a fashion, in our midst. > > > > I say this knowing that the majority of those who perished in Stalin's > > gulag, were, Communists. When Leon Trotsky ordered soldiers to fire on > > the striking sailors of the Kronstadt, he was a communist sanctioning > > the murder of communist militants. The millions who died in Siberia, who > > went to forced labour camps, were Communists. They went to the firing > > squad singing the Internationale - a song whose jaunty tune still has > > the capacity to lift my spirits on a glum day. And I love to whistle it > > when it rains.Still, It breaks my heart to hear it sung, because it is a > > song sung by executioners and by those that thyt executed, but hey, who > > said the world was a simple place where it all works out in the end? > > Everything is messy, and each of our histories is part of the mess. > > > > All this happenned, in my opinion, because, the nationalist logic of > > 'Socialism in One Country' and/or a tragic romance with the > > intoxication of newly won state power perverted the deeply democratic > > and internationalist elan of the global communist movement beyond > > imagination. From a movement that actively desired the withering away of > > the state, it became a political formation that presided over the > > withering away of society, of everything but the state. This is an > > object lesson for all revolutionaries and insurgents. Yesterday's > > fighters for freedom often become tomorrows prison wardens. I know of no > > exceptions. > > > > The logic of Capital is not necessarily a logic of private property. > > Advanced forms of Capitalism actually abolish private property, > > concentrating socially produced wealth in giant coroporate abstractions > > far more efficiently than 'nationalization' by so called socialist > > regimes can. What happenned in the Soviet Union, China and the erstwhile > > so called 'Peoples Democracies' was not 'socialism, or communism' but a > > monstrous amalgam of Capital and the State in the name of saving, yes, > > the Nation State. That is why there is no contradiction between the > > hyper capitalism that prevails in China today and the twisted dialectic > > of Mao Zedong thought. That is why Stalinists adore big dams, nuclear > > power and nuclear weapons to the extent that they do. > > > > Our own so called Communist Parties are no exception. I would like to > > illustrate this with an example that has current relevance, which has > > been gestured to even in the link that Pawan Durani has forwarded in one > > of his recent postings, and which might be of interest to some - I am > > talking of the current impasse over what is being called the 'nuclear > > deal' with the United States of America. Having deceived most people in > > this country, that they were against the Nuclear Weapons programme, they > > (the mainstream parliamentary left, led by the two so called Communist > > Parties) have now come around to a public posture of trying to create a > > protective 'fence' around our own weaponization programme, which is what > > they mean as 'strategic autonomy' under the banner of national > > sovereignty. In doing this, they have come full circle, and are now > > saying more or less exactly what the BJP has been saying all along. They > > are also in the same ideological boat as the ruling juntas in Islamabad, > > Tehran and Tel Aviv, which are also committed, overtly and sometimes > > covertly, to their own 'patriotic' nuclear deterrents. > > > > I am not an advocate of the 1-2-3 Treaty that will lock India locked > > into a military embrace with the United States. I am totally opposed to > > it, and I think that it will put us all in harm's way. But I think that > > the only way to oppose it is to insist on de-nuclearization - by arguing > > for the scrapping of the nuclear weapons fantasies of our ruling elites > > and by creating a sharp and coherent opposition to the idea of India > > becoming some sort of super power in Asia. This process (of achieving > > super power status) will being untold misery on the people who live in > > this country and in Asia at large. The greedy fantasy of energy security > > which makes our ruling elites salivate at the thought of sending Indian > > troops to guard 'indian' interests and assets in central asia is > > something that sends shivers down my spines. For the sake of all our > > futures, I hope such dreams are never realized. They will lead us > > straight towards war, and disaster. > > > > But our mainstream parliamentary left is as involved in living out this > > fantasy as anyone else is. It's argument for 'strategic autonomy' means > > that it wants to keep India's arsenal of nuclear weapons, wants to > > strike a patriotic pose, and is willing at a pinch, basically to hand > > this country back to the right reaction of the BJP - all in the name of > > proving how nationalist they are. The red in their flags is turning > > slowly to saffron. > > > > The choice that we could be making as a society is not one of choosing > > to strike alliances between an Imperialist United States or a fascist > > Iran, or an expansionist China. The only choice worth making is that of > > jettisoning nuclear weapons, demilitarizing South Asia, firstly by > > finding a solution to Kashmir that is acceptable to the majority of the > > people who live there, by making peace with our neighbours, and by > > ending the military occupations of the north eastern territories. It is > > a sign of the poverty of political imaginations in this country today > > that these choices are precisely those that the so called 'left' parties > > are bent on jettisoning but clinging to their new found doctrine of > > 'strategic autonomy', which puts them straight in bed, whether they like > > it or not, with the Bharatiya Janata Party. > > > > It was nationalism that perverted the communist ideal. That made the > > Soviet Union travel a distance from being the product of a revolution > > that had abolished the standing army to becoming a power that could only > > sustain itself with brute military force, and then not at all. > > > > From a conviction that held only one thing sacred, and that being that > > the world should have no walls, it became an ideology that built walls > > and the barbed wire fences of the gulag. From a form of political > > culture that privileged the widest liberty, with Rosa Luxemburg stating > > that freedom of expression is not freedom unless it is for those who are > > against us - communist parties travelled a long distance - to presiding > > over the routine suffocation of all dissent with a banal brutality. > > > > And for all this, I hold the virus of nationalism, to a large measure > > responsible. That is why though I have no quarrel with people who use > > the label socialist, communist, or even anarchist to describe my > > positions, I will never agree to be called a nationalist. When you put > > nationalism and socialism together, you get something called National > > Socialism. And effectively, there is little for me to choose between the > > National Socialism that prevailed in Germany from 1933 to 1945 and the > > Socialist Nationalism that prevailed in USSR, for the better part of the > > twentieth century, and that continues to prevail in China today. The > > differences that do exist are not of kind, but of degree. > > > > I am willing to accept the necessity to conduct a personal atonement for > > the millions who perished under regimes that called themselves > > communist. I personally think that it is the responsibility of anyone > > who calls himself or herself a communist today to undertake to mourn for > > all those who were (or are being) killed or displaced or imprisoned or > > imprisoned in the name of communism, to repent and ask for forgiveness. > > > > Because I am a communist, I hold nothing higher than humanity - > > ordinary simple humanity - just the worth of human beings as human > > beings, in all their unpredictable, unscriptable variety. Neither > > nations, nor parties, nor god, nor gods, nor any ideal or abstraction of > > progress can be more important than the health and well being of a > > child, or the freedom to do with our time, our leisure and our labour > > power as we see fit. I do not want martyrs or heroes, I want to live my > > life with ordinary people, doing ordinary things. I want no one I love > > or care for to have to die for the sake of a flag or any abstract idea, > > because flags and abstractions cannot feed, clothe or shelter human > > beings with dignity or liberty for all. > > > > This does not mean that we abandon politics, it just means that we work > > very hard to fashion a politics that does not demand the sacrificial > > offering of our humanity on a daily, hourly basis. I am willing to > > engage with anyone, no matter what they believe in, who is sincerely > > committed to this enterprise. But it does require us all to take a long > > and hard look at ourselves. I want to know which political ideology, > > which nation, which religious faith has not, in the history of humanity > > demanded and received its due in blood. Everyone can claim the status of > > victims for themselves, and everyone has the blood of others on their > > hands. And the arithmetic of who has killed more, and who has killed > > less is far less interesting than the more difficult and demanding task > > of accounting for the actions of the executioners on your own side. > > > > What I want to know is, will those who call themselves nationalists > > undertake to mourn for all those who have been killed in order that > > their beloved and sacred nations remain the fictions that they are on > > the map of the world? > > > > For me, the communist idea remains what it was for the Communards of the > > Paris Commune, for the partisans of the Petersburgh Soviet and for the > > Workers and Peasant Councils of Republican Spain - that of a world, and > > a social order where people, not corporations or governments, control > > the relations they enter into in order to produce the things that make > > life possible and worth living. A world without armies, states, police > > forces, intelligence agencies, weapons traders, or factories that > > pollute the earth or poison peoples bodies. A world without alienated > > and alienating labour. Where each of us labour according to our > > capacities and receive the fruits of our labour according to our > > neends. Where we begin to move from the shackles of necessity to the > > emancipation of desire. > > > > For this reason, I am willing most of all, to look hard and long at the > > legacies that I have inherited, and subject them to the sharpest > > possible critique if they are found poor and wanting in relation to the > > dream of a just and free world. If this list is a place where we can all > > begin this process of reflection on the limitations and areas of > > darkness within all that we profess and have inherited - whether as > > liberals, islamists, hindutva-vadis, secularists, nationalists, cynics > > and sceptics then it will be worth the provocation that Pawan Durani has > > put before us. I thought I would rise to the bait, and risk making a > > fool of myself, if necessary. Of course, if we all think that none of us > > have anything to reflect on or atone for, I, and I hope Pawan, will be > > sorely disappointed. > > > > Your turn Pawan. Tell me what you think is wrong with the fact that the > > Indian state killed so many thousands of people in Kashmir. Do you think > > there is anything wrong? Or would you like to pass over these > > thousands of deaths in silence. > > > > I have heard more than the odd person with separatist sentiments in > > Kashmir make the gesture of apology for the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, > > and for the death of Kashmiri pandits, for the destruction of their > > property. Sometimes the sadness and regret in that apology is a ritual, > > but often it is not fake. I walked with a friend in Srinagar one night > > in the vicinity of the Khanqah and mosque of Shah Hamadan, and he > > pointed out to me a place close by the bank of the river where a shrine > > once stood, and then we both stood in front of it in silence for a > > while. And he tried to find words to talk about the strange days of > > 1989. It wasn't easy for him, and I did not make it easy for him, but > > the conversation did not damage our friendship. > > > > He told me what I knew already, about the way Jagmohan, then then > > governor of Jammu and Kashmir, engineered the exodus, about the rumours > > and panic that was spread through the grapevines carefully cultivated by > > the state, and about the painful slogans in the streets. All this I > > know, we all know. But he also said, "It was wrong of the state to make > > them go, It was wrong on the part of those that created the climate of > > fear (and he meant the separatists, or those within their ranks who had > > undoubtedly attacked some high profile Kasmiri Pandit individualsr, and > > it was wrong on their part for them to go and to leave us at the mercy > > of the state, but it was also wrong on our part that we did so little to > > make them stay". > > > > I want you to think carefully and tell me if you can respect this > > feeling of loss? I agree that you have every reason for your pain, but > > what if I said, abandoning those who were your neighbours also gave them > > no opportunity to heal or at least address your pain. Have you ever > > considered what it is like to be yourself, when someone who is not you, > > who is the other, is no longer there to speak to, to be with, to be > > different from? What is the strange loss we feel when the person we > > think is our most intense antagonist leaves us alone to be with > > ourselves? For many Kashmiri's who remain where they have always lived, > > who did not have places to go to where the Indian army would not hound > > them, perhaps It comes from a strange and difficult to explain sense of > > loss at seeing the abandonment of their neighbours home. Perhaps It > > comes from the unease of knowing that no 'azadi' will ever be complete > > if it is won at the cost of the exodus of a minority. Sometimes it comes > > from the memory of a Pandit school master in a village school who > > suddenly disappeared on that night that you all mention. > > > > I always find it interesting to come to that point when someone says > > that his or her people have done something wrong. Often it means > > risking being called a traitor. I think in our times, traitors are > > saints. Imperfect, flawed, awkward saints, but the only kind that I can > > light a candle to. So all heretics are my friends. They make it possible > > for people in the camps of their enemies undertake necessary acts of > > counter-treason. When two traitors meet from opposite sides, there is > > the possibility of an encounter very different from the kind that > > normally gets scripted by the security forces of our beleagured > > republic. There is the possibility of an unpredictable conversation. > > This list, over the past few days, has been the setting for some > > unpredictable conversations, I do not wish them to end. > > > > I am a traitor, and many communists will call me one for saying the > > things that I have said in this post in response to your provocation. > > But then I think that sometimes, treason is the only honorable thing. > > > > However, I have yet to come across a Indian nationalist ideologue who > > believes Kashmir to be an indivisible part of India express any regret > > over the thousands of Kashmiri Muslims who were killed by Indian > > soldiers or who disappeared in the nineties in Kashmir, or about the > > thousands who were tortured or imprisoned, because all this happenned to > > keep Kashmir's within the map of India. For them, this violence was > > justified and necessary. Those deaths were necessary. > > > > You may meet many communists who will say that the killing of millions > > in the Soviet Union or in China was justified and necessary. I am not > > one of them, and there are many others like me. But I am still looking > > for the Indian nationalist who is willing to say sorry for Kashmir, for > > Manipur, for Nagaland. > > > > Perhaps you could be the one who makes a beginning. Try it out in your > > head and tell me what it feels like. Reject it if you want, but at least > > try it out. And tell me what it feels like for a moment to be a little > > larger than your own corner of the pain that engulfs us all. Please do > > share your feeling with this list. > > > > regards, > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > With the passing of communism into history as an ideological > alternative > > to > > > democracy it is time to do some accounting of its human costs. > > > > > > http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 11:29:56 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:29:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Let Truth Prevail In-Reply-To: <4fcaee300709022242m7ea30c64o3bd09d8816ddef00@mail.gmail.com> References: <4fcaee300709022242m7ea30c64o3bd09d8816ddef00@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120709022259o5e9ef458wd327cd8d78fcb56d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Wali, here I am,I stand for an independent,pluralastic Kashmir. Please answer the following and let us have a discussion. 1.If the independence movement was essentially secular why was the slogan"AAZADI KA MATLAB KYA LA-ILLAH ILLAHLAH" 2.Even if let us say for arguments sake,Pandits were Indians or so they were perceived what was the reason for burning their houses,destroying their temples and defiling their women. 3.Whats the reason for changing names of the places after Pandits have left.Anantnag is now called Islamabad,the sacred hill of Sharika(the very root of History of Kashmir) is now called Kohi-Maran(the mound of dead) and Shankarachrya hill now called Sulaiman Teng. Wali bhai I have written in favour of an independent Kashmir.It should be independent.I am sticking my neck out,I know my community wont like it.But I dont want a Kashmir where I will be told by Sallaudhin's of this world as to what I am to wear,speak(actually not speak,do and not do. They cannot enforce their narrow understanding of Islam on me.If I have to live in Kashmir with a Muslim majority I would rather live under someone like Zainaulabidin or Badshah as he is popularly called in Kashmir.I hope any Muslim would like to live in India with somelike Gandhi as a head. Incidentally may I ask you why no one asks any Islamic nations to go secular and treat non-muslims as equal citizens(leve Turkey and Indonesia)one sparrow does not make a spring. As for Pandits left in the valley,we know how they slowly they are losing their identity.We ahve alll learnt from experinces and dwindling numbers of minorities in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Regards Rashneek On 9/3/07, Wali Arifi wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > Tarun Bhartiya's post has essentially demonstrated that punctuation marks > in > histories cannot be read as the history. The discussion (by a few at > least) > on this list has so far been trying to wrap an entire stretch of J&K > history > in an extremely inadequate punctuation mark. What Tarun brings up by > advancing the conversation is that it unravels how an average Indian > citizen > got introduced to the Kashmir conflict in early 1990's. Secondly, it > examines the claims of "holocaust of a minority". Third, it attempts to > interrogate the "number game" that generates an argument of victimhood out > of the punctuation narratives. Fourth, it raises questions about the > flight > of Kashmiri Pandits in the light of their unshaken faith in the Indian > state, and, very importantly, informs the questions more as to the > Kashmiri > movement and why the minority felt 'unsafe'. > > > > It's very important to understand the status of Kashmiri Pandits in the > Indian power structure. > > > > Post 1947, majority of people in Kashmir never accepted India as their > country. New Delhi desperately needed its constituency, a trusted brigade, > in the Valley. Hand picked politicians filled the gap but the control over > public opinion and information flow came from the only trusted Pandit > minority. Subsequently, Kashmiri Pandits not only became eyes and ears for > India in Kashmir but also came very close to the power structure in New > Delhi. They assumed the centre stage and became a 'lever' vis-à-vis policy > on Kashmir. > > > > The Pakistani politicians and junta too had a handy issue in Kashmir for > their rabble-rousing. In fact, Kashmir became the only issue where > Islamabad's > establishment and its public had a meeting point, and the issue was > conveniently used to subvert the internal dissent in that country. > > > > The year 1990 saw a mass uprising in Kashmir, a revolution if you will. > Kashmiri Pandits had to migrate/were made to migrate/chose to migrate! > Contesting claims, yet to be interrogated dispassionately… > > > > But the important question is who benefited from this flight of the Hindu > minority? I suppose, as is evident from most of the post 1990 writings on > Kashmir and the movement there (including mainstream media), it has been > the > Indian state. > > > > Indian state found a very politically motivated and crafted argument in > the > shape of the Kashmiri Pandit exodus, allowing it to brand the movement for > right to self determination in Kashmir as "Islamic terrorism". The book > "My > frozen turbulence in Kashmir" by one of the most famous, or should it be > infamous, Governor in Kashmir (read ruler), Jagmohan, is testimony to > this. > > > > There is no doubt that the Kashmir's movement has been greatly influenced > by > Islam. But, New Delhi has all along used, and sometimes successfully, the > exodus of Kashmiri Hindus as a tool to strip off the Kashmir movement its > political content. > > > > So in essence, Kashmiri Pandits, as a community, has been used as a > political tool against another community – Kashmiri Muslims. Let's say it: > some among them have conveniently agreed to be used and some have > unwittingly been used. > > > > I believe the silent majority of Pandits do not approve the methods of > A.R.K.P. brigade. Or, at least are lukewarm to this approach. > > > > In my cumulative understanding so far, it appears that the exodus of > Kashmir's > Hindu minority was a result of the movement for political rights in the > state attempting to achieve democratization of power within its > population. > I believe it later got reversed by the use of Indian forces through > impunity > and imposition of black laws that suspend rule of law. So finally, the > Pandit exodus as it exists so far in the mainstream political discourse, > scuttled efforts at real democratization. In this background it is very > important to bring in the narrative of those Kashmiri Pandits in their > thousands who continue to live inside the valley. > > > > The Pandits were complicit in this contextual murder of the larger truth > perhaps because they for the first time felt like a minority in Kashmir. > The > continued trumped up association of the likes of A.R.K.P. with the Hindu > majority of a state of a billion people is a testimony, and goes against > the > grain of being a Kashmiri citizen. > > > > Best, > > > > Wali > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From adityarajkaul at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 12:00:09 2007 From: adityarajkaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 12:00:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Needs and styles of Panditocracy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tarun, I reproduce here my mail; a reply to your e-mail dated 17th April. I'm still awaiting your reply on it. Maybe you still are searching for the answers or..!!! I wonder...if at all you have any...! What will you answer now if for 4 months I couldn't find a from you. This mail sums up my reply to your "frustration". Its really sad to see the state you are in. How much depressing it is to see how you make fun of yourself in your own words. Its the most unfortunate thing for you or Sanjay Kak to laugh at his own community. Does he laugh the same way on his "Parents" and "Children" ? There is no intention of carrying out discussion on Sanjay Kak; his real director image has come in front of us quite clearly. Now, he may go to United States for the screening or to Pakistan; we don't have much to bother about. The propaganda is clear from your words. Its astonishing how you just bluntly ignore the suffering of the entire minority community which was killed, looted, kidnapped, raped...and lives a life of refugee's in their own country even after 17 years of exodus. I can understand; maybe we can't pay huge sums like "Yasin Sahab" can to make movie of his heroic contribution to Kashmir's violence. I wonder; how immature a person can be by forming a name "ARKP". But, I'm happy; this surely means our point is loud and clear; and as well others are frustrated, at the failure of their counter strategy against us. We ARKP's are not related with each other; we form different age groups; but it still is a pain to read us by the so called "Cream" and "Intellectual" brass mainly from New Delhi. They can't really absorb criticism in any manner; and playing with their own words; in their own groups is a worser pain. So, keep going guys...I don't have much to say. I don't have time to write 10 page e-mails. And, I as well don't have a regular funding from some "individual" or "group". So, I need to study, to work and to raise issues which concern me and my fellow beings. It has been fun to read all these mails; specially in last 5 days. I wonder how well ARKP's have blasted the false things spread by a few "Puppets" . Just for everyone's information; I also am part of a group of free thinkers which brought a revolution of kind in the recent past by initiating campaigns on various issues and at various levels in India. You can check more on www.unitedstudents.in I had a question in my mind for last few months; it goes like this...I'm a Kashmiri Pandit. I was born in Kashmir but soon after Islamic terrorism started and followed by the night of 19th Jan. 1990 when most Pandits were forced to leave under the pressure of gun; even my immediate family; left the same night. I was 8 months old then. I'm so unfortunate that I couldn't even see my motherland; or play in my ancestrol home in Rainawari. Don't I have a right to claim my right on my own Kashmir ? Why is my freedom of expression curtailed each time I raise my voice ? How do you guys think that the issue of 'Kashmiri Pandits" is exaggerated each time. I hardly know of any media taking up our cause; same gies with so many Human Rights groups and individuals. I wonder how Sanjay Kak thinks about this. He wasn't born in the valley; never lived there. Does he really feel the same amont of pain ? Or, does Delhi and Pune help him forget his origin ? Maybe yes. Regarding the Kashmiri language angle. Sanjay Kak's false testimony is known well now and even Sampat Prakash's for that matter. I wonder if Sanjay could start a conversation with me in Kashmiri and lets see what it results in. I challenge him for this. Or is it hard to digest to take an 18 year old's claim ? Speak and write in Kashmiri and prove your point Kak... The rest in my below attached mail to Tarun (dated April 17th). Tarun you indeed are lucky. You can enjoy rains in your hometown. I haven't even seen my house; now only what I can see is the rubble and burned house. Check my latest post www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com God Bless you !!! A of ARKP "Thunder" Dear Tarun, Thanks for your reply. I appreciate the gesture. I share your point of view on the issue of supposed nationality. I agree we don't have to be dumb to support everything that our nation does but at the same time we need to have a perspective which surely was missing in the movie. We have a right to criticize our leaders, our systems and everything really but we must know at the same what we are upto.Ultra-nationalism is a heap of dust and nothing more but we ought to know facts.Thats where the movie is biased almost like propaganda.Something like Amitabh Bachan saying UP mein dum hai kyon ke jurm yahan kam hai…he makes an ass of himself when he says so ..in a lesser way the movie does the same for itself. Please understand the problem of Kashmir is far more complex and mangled that the movie tends to project. The movie ran for almost two and a half hours and all it had about half a million people who are incidentally aborigines of Kashmir was maybe 5 minutes or lesser.It is not even about time but the lies which you wish to call data from GoI. Friend let us not fool each other.If you had to use GoI data then according to them only 34503 people have died since the beginning of militancy in Kashmir and most have been killed by militants.Why does the movie say 70,000 killed. Why this selective use where it suits your purpose.We don't need a Sanjay Kak to tell our story but lies surely we have a right to speak against just like you have a right to make movies(which are half baked –in content, borrowed footages from militants, distortion of history or even ignorance of history). It is time you be honest and we will appreciate that you have a point of view no matter how different. Even Pyare Hatash's poem is not in context..it almost seems like ….he is ruing the loss as any other Kashmiri Muslim would do (mischevious usage-may I say). We don't need anyone to romanticize this agony of ours while actually leaving the real pain somewhere.By all means make a movie on people who give fatwas to their poets like Ahad Zargar and stone some to death like Mansur bin Hallaj…I am sure u have never heard of these names…do read my friend..borrow a copy of Koran and you will know more about AZADI… A lot of Pandits may have supported what you call Azadi …but then the slogan was Azadi ka matlab kya…la illah illlalah…..so friend think whether it is Pan Islamic expansion or Aazadi….unless you have a closed mind I invite you to a discussion where we can talk freely..and you may see what is only the layers and not on the surface. Again….this issue of your Mr.Yasin Malik(the idiot doesn't deserve to be called a Mr)whether he was called or not….I am sure the whole movie could not have been shot in Kashmir if you guys did not have his blessings.I am sure you know Ajay Raina-documentary film maker…he says in his movie about Kashmir they had to leave places immediately so that militants did not know about him.How come you moved so freely shooting wherever u wanted when Ashoke Pandit could not or for that matter Jyoti Swarup could not.Since Yasin Malik and his gang of murderers already knew what you are making you were not just allowed but propped… You should as well see the one made by Rajesh Jala. My exams are starting in a few days from now. Good to know that you were from KMC. good luck to you Aditya Raj Kaul On 9/2/07, Tarun Bhartiya wrote: > > Needs and styles of Panditocracy > > For all those amused/fascinated/disgusted or plainly mystified by the > responses Jashn-e-Azadi's (non) screening journey has gathered, here is > the > accumulated commentary of more than two years. As editor of the film, I > comment in order to take a bit (hopefully quite a bit) of blame about the > lopsided stance of the film vis-à-vis the Pandits and the Indian Nation, > and > as the Shillong based moderator and blogmistri of www.jashneazadifilm.comto > also share in some of the opprobrium about freedom of expression. > > Speak, you also, > speak as the last, > have your say. > > Speak – > But keep your yes and no unsplit > And give your say this meaning: > give it shade. > > Give it shade enough, > give it as much > as you know has been dealt out between > midday and midday and midnight. > > Look around: > look how it all leaps alive – > where death is ! Alive ! > He speaks truly who speaks the shade. (Paul Celan) > > Even if I assume that the outraged constellation of media savvy > undergraduate bluster, pop Sufism embarrassed at the Islamic roots of > Sufism, elegantly written defenses of intolerance, and the conspiratorial > comedies of the blog world, do not represent the range of politics and > opinions which the Kashmiri Pandit (KP) world has to offer (how can it?), > at > least these maneuverings allow us a privileged peep into the workings of > Panditocracy, an opinion making machine which grinds into motion (or is it > > always working?) to defend the ramparts of divinely ordained Bharatvarsha. > > This defence plan, of which patriotic snitching is the latest weapon used, > has consisted of protesting shock troopers, willful misreading of the > film, > conspiratorial search for a 'puppet master', repeated unsubstantiated > allegations in the hope that by their very repetition would make them > true, > vile and threatening comments on the blog (comments which we have quite > early on and openly said we would moderate), and non-reviews of the film > stalking any discussion forum, website, blog which mentions Jashn-e-Azadi > … > As if an event management company has been working to a script. > > In this tiring necessity, talking to Sanjay recently, we laughed and said > that only thing left for the Panditocrats was to accuse us of making > threats > – and there it was: a post on the Reader's list hypothesizing about the > matter. (Maybe they should accuse us now of scripting their responses too. > ) > > > But this script which Panditocracy churns out, every once in a while > (sadly > Jashn-e-Azadi is not its first target) has a history. A history which > needs > to be spoken about, dissected and innards examined, to understand its > working and its intentions. > > A leaf, treeless > For Bertolt Brecht, > > What times are these > when a conversation > is almost a crime > > because it includes > so much made explicit ? > (Paul Celan) > > I was curious, December 2004, Sanjay came to Shillong for a film festival > and over some nice Swish coffee, outlined his ongoing Kashmir project and > asked me to be a part of it. My small town curiosity about the big issue > was > also about the professional desire to be part of a process not limited by > 28 > minutes of scripted gentility. I saw his Narmada Film at the festival, a > depressing letter to the tradition of the non-violent progressive nation > and > felt that finally I have seen a documentary which is not about solutions, > outrage, horror show, but an engagement, thinking through, a conversation > which began when the film ended. (Even if my work on Jashn-e-Azadi does to > some people just a bit of what 'Words on Water' did to me, I can go back > to > watching Shillong rain). > > But what of Kashmir did I know? I knew the shorthand – JKLF, LeT, JeM, > Hizb, > IeD, Pakistan, Flawed elections, progressive visions of National > Conference > perverted by its inheritors, Islamic Fundamentalism, and the Tragedy of > Pandits. I acknowledge that this short hand knowledge was > filtered-tempered > by my khadi diaper upbringing. This filter has meant that as much as I > try, > only by parricide will I be a part of the right wing nationalist consensus > about India. But if I wasn't a part of the 'right' brigade, I was still > somewhere in the secular progressive mode of envisioning India – a vision > that for all its criticality remains inscribed within the accidental > cartography of India. Kashmir to Kanyakumari, a people's republic. Defend > not just the nation, but the people bound by the nation. > > Although all this secular progressive inheritance was already getting > slightly rusty in the winds of North East (that other endemic battleground > of the Indian nation), where I grew up and now lived. Also, blame it on > the > post 9/11 shape of the world, where struggles and their rhetoric, and > their > bombs were (and are) grabbing the Manichean dialectic of my tradition into > the uncharted political mess. > > If you ignore the (vanaspati) Pandit Nehru, my political encounters with > Kashmir began with the Pandits. As an undergraduate in the Delhi > University, > in the early nineties of Raths and Reservations, as part of campaigns > against majoritarian Hindu visions, these two issues which were sure to > come > up to embarrass us into silence – Shah Bano and our willful neglect of the > victims of Islamic terror – namely the Kashmiri Pandits who had been > driven > out of the Kashmir Valley. (Why were we only working with the victims of > riots in Seelampur, while there were Kashmiri Pandits refugees right here > in > Delhi?) > > The organisation to which I belonged had many senior democratic rights and > civil liberties activists, who had kept watch over happenings in Kashmir, > but they too were silenced into embarrassment. Remember in the late > eighties > - there were many trips which many progressives (Gandhians, JPites, > Radical > humanists, even Maoist sympathisers) made to Kashmir to look at the early > days of the Indian states' encounters with the movement there. They had > all > come back with stories of repression, and the sentiment of people chanting > 'Azadi'. Many of the unresolved questions of Kashmir had started making > appearance in the mass media. The Indian project was again up for > questioning. But then the first wave of migration of Pandits from the > valley > happened, and my tradition was stunned into an embarrassed silence. Lest > our > campaigns to question howling Hindutva be suspected of one sidedness, we > were forced to omit any mention of Kashmir. We started making obligatory > noises about the plight of the Pandits. Trips to refugee camps were made > and > a balancing act ensued - we made the mandatory connection between > Majoritarian Islamic politics with Majoritarian Hindu politics. > > But these trips were curiously ambiguous, a trudge through the debris of > hope that only exiles could build out of. But there was more, there was a > more insistent air of exultant grief – now you see the truth as we want > you > to see. For me, the odious memories of Muslim persecution which I had to > listen to became too much. But I being the well meaning liberal I was > training to be, filed them as a tragedy whose opinions I did not like, but > so what, still a tragedy, and I shut up. And thus a decade of Kashmir was > lost to me; it became my bad conscience to which I would return in purer > times. Pandit migration became the gate from where to enter Kashmir, with > well-chosen Panditocrats as gatekeepers. The diversity of Kashmir's' > politics, its history, and its voices turned one colour – green. > Propaganda > on PTV. > > In these three years of working on Jashn-e-Azadi, recovering those years > of > disappearances, encounters, curfews, crackdown, reptilian Indian secret > apparatuses, internecine battles – my head screams. Where were those > stories? Why didn't I seek them? A valley of savages with beards, the > popular upsurge. All had vanished into anonymous violent headlines. A > consensus appeared in which we all partook, from The Hindu to the > Organiser, > Kashmiris as irrational mullahs with bombs, their Sat phones trained > towards > their Emirs. How could we even imagine politics in such an irrational > revanchist atmosphere? If what they can do with their well-integrated > minority was any indication, then god-forbid, what theocratic dread we > were > going to have! In our fears for the 'innocent' Kashmiris, we chose to be > liberal interventionists, with Indian Security apparatus doing the dirty > but > necessary work on behalf of civilization and democracy. A whole people and > their history was switched off. What remained were victims, being paraded > in > their pain. If you asked a question, it stared you with grief-wet eyes, > striking you with guilt. And you moved on from politics to tragedy, > questioning to heartfelt sadness, concrete to debilitating abstractions. > > Between the idea and the word > there is more than we can understand. > There are ideas for which no words can be found > > The thought lost in the eyes of a unicorn > appears again in a dog's laugh. > (Vladimir Holan) > > Obviously it would be a tad bit too obvious to point out that the other > film > "And the world remained silent" wholesale borrows its title from Eli > Weisel's classic telling of the Holocaust experience. And it may also be > too > obvious to reach out for some historic correspondences in this well > thought > out semantic borrowing, because it is to the pantheon of holocaust and > genocide to which the Panditocrats want their experiences to belong. But > in > the contested terrain of the meaning and histories of the Holocaust, lie > some cautionary lessons for us. In a simple counter posing of the silence > of > the world and the genocidal destruction of European Jewry, the Zionist > telling of its history plays on the guilt of the silent world to > unquestioningly accept the special place for the Jews as victims, and thus > accords them a special treatment and protection. > > Because there remains a fascist fringe (or Ahmedinijad) with their > anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying fantasies, to question any element of this > > equation then opens you out as an anti-Semite or a Holocaust denier. The > Zionist machine ensures that uncomfortable questions about the behaviour > of > Israel, for instance, are kept out of bounds in popular consciousness. > Anti-Semitism becomes Anti-Israel. > > But the world of Holocaust History is not only the world of Zionist > grievers > and Fascist conspiratorialists. There have been – and are – other voices, > the most prominent of them being Raul Hilberg (who died recently), a > figure > of hate for both the Zionist and Holocaust deniers. In his seminal and > monumental work 'Destruction of European Jewry' about both the number and > composition of the dead in Nazi Concentration camps, and the ideology that > > led to the world of concentration camps, he shows that numbers in > themselves > tell you nothing, unless and until you unpack them in their historical > concreteness. Otherwise they just remain a shocking image, an ideology > whose > function may very well be to stop any historical enquiry. In his work he > shows that if it was Holocaust for the Jews, it was also for the Gypsies, > the Homosexuals, the Communists. In his view, Zionist attempts to > appropriate special victim hood was not just mistaken, but also > ideological, > which by making the tragedy a-historical, allowed them to shield their > politics from any enquiry. > > It is not only the title of the film "And the world remained silent" they > have borrowed, but their attacks on our film also closely borrows the > language and politics of Zionism. If you are a Jew who questions Zionism, > s/he is a Self Hating Jew. So if you are Sanjay Kak, a Kashmiri Pandit, > who > refuses to toe the community consensus, he is suffering from Self-Hatred. > If > you question the Panditocratic consensus – you are anti-national, > anti-people. (The Anti-Hindu charge is reserved for their favoured > company, > the Swapan Dasguptas and Sandhya Jains, not Sarai Reader's List.) > > As an example, in all the twisted public posturing as a non-sectarian, > liberal, mystic, Mr Nietzsche (Twice) Born, with Ghalib as his wali, Rumi > as > his 'quotable quotes' and Kashmiri Muslims as his friends, when it comes > to > private arenas of beliefs truly held, what comes out, unsurprisingly, is > not > Anti-Islamic Fundamentalist belief, but Anti-Muslim bile. He borrows his > terminology from the Hindu Right. (Please trawl through this list for a > private mail revealed by mistake, and his comments approvingly quoted at > the > Maharaja Agrasen College screening of ATWRS in the blog of the film). His > Nietzschian nihilism is not all that Nietzschian in it's all embracing > nihilism of 'all that is sacred', but instead a sad adolescent copy of the > Nazi caricatured Nietzsche, who foretold the 'Superman' being reborn. > > Even in their willful misreading of the film, which they wish to > memorialize > through their web stalking (even on their blackberries), this historic > script is being materialized. By accusing the film of minimising the > numbers > of dead, and not according special status to the Pandit dead, or > minimizing > their tragedy, they hope that Jashn-e-Azadi would be pushed into a life on > the fringes of jehadi propaganda, whose CDs could then be regularly seized > > by Indian Police to show their active involvement in the fight against > terrorism. To return to Raul Hilberg, and his monumental work (which even > Zionist Historians refer to), in popular telling he was tarred with the > same > number-brush, accused of robbing the dead of their special status. If you > accuse someone of trifling with Human tragedy, what you are trying to do > is > to warn off that 'open minded' soul to close his or her mind. > > To reach for my editing pride – let me go over some numbers that concern > KPs > in the film. They appear just before the intermission (if somebody really > wants to know, I can recall for you the reasons for this placement), and I > > quote the script : > > [[BEGIN QUOTATION FROM THE FILM]] > A village of absence: Haal village > > Txt Caption 3A: > In the volatile 1990 uprising, Kashmir's Pandit minority became vulnerable > to a sharp religious polarization. > Almost 200 Hindus were brutally killed by extremists. > > Subtitles: > Is Piarey Hatash at home? > Could I speak with him? > Bade Papa there's a phone for you? > > Greetings! > I'd spoken with you, about your poem … > "Brothers our address - > "So brothers our address is lost > Where do we look for our own, that place is lost > What we gazed upon with love all our years > That shelter is locked, our home is lost … > > Txt Caption 3B: > The Government let it be known it was unable to guarantee their safety, > and > encouraged them to leave.Over the next year, nearly 160,000 Pandits fled > the > valley. > > > txt: Haal > South Kashmir > > Summer 2004 > > [[END FILM QUOTE]] > > 200 is the number of dead in the year 1990-91, the year of their first > exodus, and this is important, it does not say a total of 200 Pandits dead > till 2007. (In fact the graphic in the film actually omits to mention the > number of Muslim dead for that period: that is an omission that someone > from > the valley should point out!). But unlike what the number twisting ARKP > would have people believe (without seeing the film), we simply wanted to > point out the reality behind the perception in the minds of the minority > about the struggle for Azadi in the valley. When we later return to the > KPs > exile in the film, we pose a question for the movement in the valley, > which > should be an uncomfortable question for our imagined "puppet masters" > > [[BEGIN QUOTATION FROM THE FILM]] > > 55 A village of absence: Haal village > • A moon rises over the hill; a boat > • Phone rings and he begins a recitation > > Subtitles: > I don't know what happened to the line > Yes, I couldn't figure out either > Can you again, from beginning to end - > > So brothers our address is lost > Where do we look for our own, that place is lost > What we gazed upon with love all our years > That shelter is locked, our home is lost > Who for that darkness do we blame? > Stifled, alas, that reason is lost > Fluttering around the lamp, burnt ourselves > Darkness fell, the moth is lost > When will return that heart-warmth? > The intimacy of winter nights is lost > > You see on winter nights > we would meet in our villages, > in the old days, > we'd share our joys and sorrows > We'd weave blankets, > tell old tales, of ancient dervishes > So that's why – > > When will return that heart-warmth? > The intimacy of winter nights is lost > All we'd garnered was one faith > Lidless our pots, the treasure is lost > At the last, when we leave with nothing > God knows, what places were lost > The one who knew tomorrow's secrets > That dervish, that mad seer is lost > > Txt: Pyare 'Hatash', Jammu > > When I recited these ghazals > in Srinagar, at Tagore Hall, > people started to cry … > > We're just the two of us here > my children are outside, in Delhi. > I don't move out > Because outside is a fog, > of politics, of violence, > of lies, and lust – > I just stay at home, > I'm broken by this world – as poets often are … > I want to see you … > > V/O 15 > The broken voice of a poet, evoking the absence of a lost minority … > That's a question that hangs over the struggle for freedom in Kashmir, > collateral damage to the old questions of freedom, nation, and religion. > > [[END FILM QUOTE]] > > > (By the way, in that year of 1990-91, around 700 Kashmiri Muslims also > died > in Kashmir.) > > So what do the Panditocrats want? They want to silence the critical voices > > from raising any question that they have not vetted. They want to be sole > actors, directors, and scriptwriters of this twenty yearlong story. Twenty > years of "And the world should remain silent" and only listen to us: ask > no > questions, express no doubt. If even well feted liberals like Ramchandra > Guha say that "the two critical events that… defined the epoch of > competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid and the > exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits (India after Gandhi)" then you know that > Panditocracy is not a fringe phenomenon. They have succeeded in suspending > all disbelief. > > For instance one commonsensical question, how come 200,000 or 500,000 > (fill > in any big number), are forced out of a place, and the Indian state, which > Panditocrats defend with such zeal, does nothing or remains silent. And > there is no skepticism directed towards this divine protector of life and > liberty. Even if the cause of this 'forced' migration was that every > Kashmiri Muslim (doubtful, but what the hell let me be ARKP for a moment) > was baying for KP blood, wasn't it the responsibility of Indian state > apparatus – which can station 700,000 soldiers, camp around every village > of > the valley, crackdown at a drop of an utensil – to do something. Okay, > even > if it had inadequate forces in 1990-91 and wanted for sometime to allow > people to move to safe places, why didn't it encourage them to move back > when it had adequate security? Or will the return only happen when all the > Muslims have been repatriated to Pakistan (or where ever they are to be > thrown out or made to vanish), and then the Pandits can enjoy their > purified > ancestral land (read Panun Kashmir). This is a legitimate question to ask > (Jashn-e-Azadi doesn't do that, but someone will), as legitimate as asking > > of the movement in valley as to why was their minority made to feel > unsafe? > > But ask unvetted questions, and see Panditocrats piling onto you. For you > see KP's in exile makes more sense for the Indian state, than them being > in > the valley. Poignancy of Exile and Migration is more potent than the > historical messiness of politics. Poignancy, if I may point out to the > Panditocrats, is not just the migration of Pandits, but a Pandit politics > based on the triumphant return to the cleansed land of the Twice born. And > that, friends, has the possibility of making the exile a permanent > condition. > > But these are troubling thoughts… let me get back to the troubles at hand, > > of refusing to see Kashmir only from the eyes of Panditocrats. I am proud > of > theses troubles, for no longer will the only conversation about Kashmir be > about 'jehad' and its 'innocent' victims. Jashn-e-Azadi has attempted, in > its own inadequate filmic way, to ask questions, join conversations, bear > witness. No wonder the Panditocracy is outraged. An outrage that is > stopping > me from going back and enjoying my special Shillong rain. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org US Website: www.unitedstudents.in From aman.am at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 13:21:08 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:21:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai (acronym?) In-Reply-To: <13df7c120709022036h2f7eb4a1tb2de08659aaa3557@mail.gmail.com> References: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <19ba050f0709020530m7b4b5a8eqa58680fcf7bccb3b@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120709022036h2f7eb4a1tb2de08659aaa3557@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <995a19920709030051h5c7cb2b1n5d583ad4fda70f7c@mail.gmail.com> It isn't often that one feels the thrill of a prophecy realized. But in the off chance that things meander into a pattern of their own, one cant help but feel (i must confess and come clean) a bit smug, and let out a blood curdling, yet deeply self satisfied "word howl" Yes yes, i know that i am living a bubble of euphoria - in a glass case of ignorance, in a stupor of non-feeling. But i feel that the laughing hyena stage has been realized. Absurdity has a way of making us all feel equally foolish (though some are still more foolish than others). Finally, as my mathematics teacher always told me, "It's not about loving your parents; it's about doing your homework." Best, Scavenging Hyena. On 9/3/07, rashneek kher wrote: > Dear Yosuf, > > When Yosuf's noble parents named him Yosuf(king) little would they have > known that the name would create a personality disorder in the child.The day > Yosuf came to know the meaning of his name,he started believing like a > king.He issued orders,glorifications of murderers like Yasin Malik,calling > people ghosts and many such things. > Why break the bubble,let him live in the euphoria of being a king.King > Yosuf.Issue some new orders sir. > One thing I do share in common with the king though.I too am not an > Indian.He probably wouldnt know.The rulers are not supposed to know all > subjects. > As for ghosts since I have been labelled as one by the KING,be prepared to > get haunted. > > Rashneek > > > > > On 9/2/07, M Yousuf wrote: > > > > I can see Kshemendra Koul going home following the rest of ARKP. And this > > post clearly shows where he comes from. I am happy at least Kshemendra has > > read Shddhabrata's exhaustive response. that for sure is a healthy sign. > > But none from the likes of ARKP could, as I have observed so far, manage > > putting together an argument or enough intellectual resource to muster a > > response to the actualities contained in Shuddabrata's investigation. Time > > for them to make that natural journey of growth, from their rhetoric that > > they so vehemently believe in, to defendable and sound argument. > > > > What Kshemendra also manages to make clear is that this free space should > > be > > vacated by everybody to be left available only for the passion of keying > > expressions disconnected with any thought. Any suggestions Sarai > > visitors/contributors? > > > > Since a blackberry slip mentions"Indian occupied Kashmir", when a large > > country like India needs one third of its army (700000 in total consisting > > army, BSF, CRPF etc) to control an entire people in Kashmir, what else can > > it be described as but occupation. I am not an Indian and even if I was, I > > would still allow history, politics of occupation and universal principals > > to guide my understanding rather than being carried away by my blind > > attachment with a nation state. > > > > This space is doing a great job at keeping different people with different > > views and arguments engaged. While some of us may benefit others refuse to > > acknowledge the benefits of a healthy discourse. > > > > M Yousuf > > > > > > > > On 9/2/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > This is for those of you who are the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians > > Touring > > > Sarai" who are so obsessed with just only their Self that they have lost > > all > > > Self-respect. > > > > > > Interestingly, since some here are very fond of acronyms, they can > > work > > > out the acronym for "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai". Fits > > them. > > > > > > One called M Yousuf chooses to talk about Kashmir in SARAI. He uses > > the > > > term "Indian occupied Kashmir" and none of you "Shameless Hyaenidae > > Indians > > > Touring Sarai" contests that usage. > > > > > > One of the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai", Shuddhabrata > > > Sengupta, in fact gleefully acknowledges the contribution made by M > > Yousuf: > > > > > > """"""The A.R.K.P interpretation (thanks, Yousuf for a handy > > > nomenklatural abbreviation for this 'league of extraordinary gentlemen' > > of > > > Aditya, Rashneek, Kshemendra and Pawan, or should I say 'Amalgamated > > > Recidivist Kooks & Poseurs')"""""""""" > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 13:26:30 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:26:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai (acronym?) In-Reply-To: <995a19920709030051h5c7cb2b1n5d583ad4fda70f7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <455097.90422.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <19ba050f0709020530m7b4b5a8eqa58680fcf7bccb3b@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120709022036h2f7eb4a1tb2de08659aaa3557@mail.gmail.com> <995a19920709030051h5c7cb2b1n5d583ad4fda70f7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120709030056v48432cd1ube134da0f9b84e2d@mail.gmail.com> Aman bhai, a couplet for you Khtawaar smajhege duniya tujhe Tu itne zyada safaai ne de (chote bahr ki ghazal hai...) Rashneek On 9/3/07, Aman Sethi wrote: > > It isn't often that one feels the thrill of a prophecy realized. But > in the off chance that things meander into a pattern of their own, one > cant help but feel (i must confess and come clean) a bit smug, and let > out a blood curdling, yet deeply self satisfied "word howl" > > Yes yes, i know that i am living a bubble of euphoria - in a glass > case of ignorance, in a stupor of non-feeling. But i feel that the > laughing hyena stage has been realized. > > Absurdity has a way of making us all feel equally foolish (though some > are still more foolish than others). > > Finally, as my mathematics teacher always told me, "It's not about > loving your parents; it's > about doing your homework." > Best, > Scavenging Hyena. > > > > On 9/3/07, rashneek kher wrote: > > Dear Yosuf, > > > > When Yosuf's noble parents named him Yosuf(king) little would they have > > known that the name would create a personality disorder in the child.Theday > > Yosuf came to know the meaning of his name,he started believing like a > > king.He issued orders,glorifications of murderers like Yasin > Malik,calling > > people ghosts and many such things. > > Why break the bubble,let him live in the euphoria of being a king.King > > Yosuf.Issue some new orders sir. > > One thing I do share in common with the king though.I too am not an > > Indian.He probably wouldnt know.The rulers are not supposed to know all > > subjects. > > As for ghosts since I have been labelled as one by the KING,be prepared > to > > get haunted. > > > > Rashneek > > > > > > > > > > On 9/2/07, M Yousuf wrote: > > > > > > I can see Kshemendra Koul going home following the rest of ARKP. And > this > > > post clearly shows where he comes from. I am happy at least Kshemendra > has > > > read Shddhabrata's exhaustive response. that for sure is a healthy > sign. > > > But none from the likes of ARKP could, as I have observed so far, > manage > > > putting together an argument or enough intellectual resource to muster > a > > > response to the actualities contained in Shuddabrata's investigation. > Time > > > for them to make that natural journey of growth, from their rhetoric > that > > > they so vehemently believe in, to defendable and sound argument. > > > > > > What Kshemendra also manages to make clear is that this free space > should > > > be > > > vacated by everybody to be left available only for the passion of > keying > > > expressions disconnected with any thought. Any suggestions Sarai > > > visitors/contributors? > > > > > > Since a blackberry slip mentions"Indian occupied Kashmir", when a > large > > > country like India needs one third of its army (700000 in total > consisting > > > army, BSF, CRPF etc) to control an entire people in Kashmir, what else > can > > > it be described as but occupation. I am not an Indian and even if I > was, I > > > would still allow history, politics of occupation and universal > principals > > > to guide my understanding rather than being carried away by my blind > > > attachment with a nation state. > > > > > > This space is doing a great job at keeping different people with > different > > > views and arguments engaged. While some of us may benefit others > refuse to > > > acknowledge the benefits of a healthy discourse. > > > > > > M Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/2/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > This is for those of you who are the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians > > > Touring > > > > Sarai" who are so obsessed with just only their Self that they have > lost > > > all > > > > Self-respect. > > > > > > > > Interestingly, since some here are very fond of acronyms, they can > > > work > > > > out the acronym for "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai". > Fits > > > them. > > > > > > > > One called M Yousuf chooses to talk about Kashmir in SARAI. He > uses > > > the > > > > term "Indian occupied Kashmir" and none of you "Shameless Hyaenidae > > > Indians > > > > Touring Sarai" contests that usage. > > > > > > > > One of the "Shameless Hyaenidae Indians Touring Sarai", > Shuddhabrata > > > > Sengupta, in fact gleefully acknowledges the contribution made by M > > > Yousuf: > > > > > > > > """"""The A.R.K.P interpretation (thanks, Yousuf for a handy > > > > nomenklatural abbreviation for this 'league of extraordinary > gentlemen' > > > of > > > > Aditya, Rashneek, Kshemendra and Pawan, or should I say 'Amalgamated > > > > Recidivist Kooks & Poseurs')"""""""""" > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rashneek Kher > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon Sep 3 14:19:00 2007 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:49:00 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] A paradox Message-ID: <24F62582-3460-45D9-BB8A-F37BEF4230C5@sarai.net> Yesterday a friend who loves conceptual paradoxes about our modes of thinking told me this story after reading postings in this list. There was a kingdom with a big gate. Two guard always stood at the gate. They would ask the visitor the reason for entering the kingdom. If the reasons were true they would be allowed in. If the reasons were a lie, they were executed. A man came in one day to the big gate. Said to the sentry. "Dear sentry the reason for my entering the gate is to be executed by you." Now the sentries were in a dilemma. warmly jeebesh From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 3 14:07:21 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 14:07:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DBC7C1.5050007@sarai.net> Dear Gargi, dear all, Welcome to the latrine cleaners ! I think not knowing when and how to stop is a Bengali problem. Maybe even a bengali boddi problem. Since I seem to have it too. And em, just look at the terribly long winded embarrassment of my name, not just a sen, but a secret sen, a sen-gupta. Cchi cchi cchi. Ki lojja. How terribly our loquacious ancestors have burdened us with the curse of interminable conversation, or as we say in Bangla, koch-kochani. many thanks for your marvellous contributions, and I am absolutely riveted by your family history and your father's ability to laugh at and with pain. And though our visions may or may not be divergent, I think our jokes are still the same, and and I think that you will agree with me the ability to laugh is just as important, that if not more, than the ability to make or unmake revolutions, or to achieve enlightenment. When I read the Dhammapadda, or the Tri Pitaka, the one thing I know is that the Buddha had a great sense of humour. For instance, once, when asked which country was the best, he wryly responded by posing a counter question "show me one without sorrow and then I will have the ability to answer this question". I have always claimed him as an early inspiration for the lapse of my nationalism. Maybe I will dig into some stories myself, from our dark family closet, some days, weeks, months, years later, if I ever have the guts that is. But for now, Here is a poem by Khalil Gibran, which I found quoted on a very interesting website called Yamberzal, brought out by some young people in the part of Kashmir that is occupied, no not by the republic of la la land, (the republic o la la land only colonizes my right brain) but by the Republic of India. You know, the Jai Pind, Jai Hind one. The one that gets the artillery salute when the missiles are let out to shine on 26 January. The one that is currently being sponsored by Airtel, or was it Motorola. Anyway, I digress again, bad bengali boddi habit. I am not a great fan of Khalil Gibran, but given the current threads, that bring pain, hyenas, laughter and tears so often and so vividly, I thought that it might be of interest, ------------------------------------------------ The Story of the Hyena and the Crocodile by Khalil Gibran Upon the bank of the Nile at eventide a hyena met a crocodile and they stopped and greeted one another. The hyena spoke and said "How goes the day with you, Sir?" And the crocodile answered saying, 'it goes badly with me. Sometimes in pain and sorrow I weep And the creatures always say, "They are but crocodile tears", and this wounds me beyond all telling' Then the hyena says, "You speak of your pain and your sorrow. but think of me also for a moment, I gaze at the beauty of the world, its wonders and its miracles and out of sheer joy I laugh, even as the day laughs? And then the people of the jungle say, "its but the laughter of the hyena." --------------- I found this website (Yamberzal), somewhat by accident, while re-reading vitriol from Pawan Durani, Rashneek Kher and someone else called Vishakha, where else, but on the comments section of the 'Jashn=e=Azadi' blog at - http://kashmirfilm.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/screening-news-1/ This is to underscore (okay, pointlessly, but what the heck) that it is an utterly shameless lie that critical views of Sanjay Kak's film automatically meet the fate of the censor, on the said blog. Follow the links and I will rest my (heavy suit-)case Anyway, I am a bit tired of the A.R.K.P machine, and this conversation has moved on to vastly more interesting things.So, if you scroll down the right side of the webpage you hit a series of interesting links including one to Rashneek's Blog - 'Ephemeral Existence', and in the blog roll just above Ephemeral Existence is 'Yamberzal' http://yembarzal.blogspot.com/ Now go to http://yembarzal.blogspot.com/2007/04/other-side.html and read what is written there - a very young person, a young Kashmiri muslim in a blog that is clearly sympathetic to the notion of 'azadi' as is evident from the content of the rest of the blog, is anguished at the violence that 'her' side is dishing out, her voice condemns the Indian army, but she is just as angry at how the indiscriminate use of violence by militants, grenade attacks in public places have led to sorrow. Her anger is against those who claim to act on her behalf just as much as it is directed against the state power that oppresses her. I have yet to see even a fraction of this capacity to be self reflexive or self critical in any of the blogs and websites that emanate from the 'Panun Kashmir' armada, of which A.R.K.P are but an advanced flotilla. Elsewhere in this blog (Yamberzal) there is much that is of interest. There is anger, sorrow, pain, but there is also laughter, gentleness, enthusiasm and very high spirits. It isn't just pain, pain, pain, pain like a drill in our heads. And remember, this comes from young people who are too young to remember or know what a Kashmir without those 700,000 soldiers sent by the occupying power even looked like, or felt like. They have been at the blunt end of the occupation. I have found many voices like this in Kashmir, young people who have not surrendered their minds and their souls to a one dimensional narrative of victimhood and an endless litany of their agony. It takes time to draw out their narratives of torture, and everyone has that narrative, but it is not dished out as a calling card. And I respect that spirit. The spirit that is able to look at me, an 'Indian'to them, and look me in the eye with honesty and friendship and without accusation, without ever confusing how they relate to me as a person who happens to be an Indian citizen with what they think about the state machinery that holds them in subjection. It has never made it impossible for them to share laughter with me, and the ability to have conversations about lots of other things, difficult things, pleaurable and painful things, and even the things that all our own people ('their' militants / 'our' soldiers - yuck what an ugly, clumsy, stupid 'us and them' formulation, but it will do for the moment) do that none of us, neither me, nor them, can be proud of. Sometimes they and I meet at the bridge where the people some would call traitors meet, coming from opposite sides. And believe me, just as, despite, what A.R.K.P says, us 'la-la landers' have very little influence or power (and nor do we seek any, but if we had some, why would we be so ineffectual in ending the occupation? and can he tell us where to get some, power, I mean, is it going cheap?), so too, they, the ones in occupied Kashmir who chafe at the frightening menace of the Indian army and the (no, I won't say 'equally', because it isn't and can't be 'equal', so lets not play a parlour game about balance here) can be at the receiving end of harsh violence of some 'militants'. Because soldiers and partisans do not have much patience with nuances and shades and ambiguities, and the difficult task of knowing that it is difficult, not easy, to be loyal. We meet on very difficult ground. (Apologies for these very convoluted sentences, which should have met an editor before they left the keyboard) Thanks Gargi, I thought that you might enjoy this link, and the story of the Hyena and the Crocodile. Shuddha Meanwhile, I am still waiting for Pawan to tell me whether he has, or has ever had any regrets over the violence that has been perpetrated in his name. Come on, try playing 'traitor-traitor' it can be fun, patriots only have anthems, our songs are a little rusty, maybe, but we also have a sense of humour, and no we wont charge you money for it. Gargi Sen wrote: > Hello Everybody, > I am not a writer but have nevertheless discovered the two banes in the life > of a writer. First, how to start, and second, how to stop. As I have merely > crossed the first hurdle I crave your indulgence. And apologies for another > mail addressed to a few people on the list. > Gargi > > Dear M. Ray (and of course my young friends Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , > Pawan and Rahul) > > M. Ray I am a little annoyed with you. How could you forget my ÂŒboddi¹ > lineage and its implication? While the non-Bengalis on this list will not > know what I am talking about you should know better. Because either you are > a Bengali or you know enough about Bengalis - who insist on seeing the world > divided into two simple camps: Bengalis and non-Bengalis - to so astutely > identify my roots. But how could you forget the boddi bit? After all most > all boddi women, and men, are enormously proud of their levels of education. > And to the best of my knowledge, from that part of the world, after the > Khasi women, I believe it was the boddi Bengali women who took to education > like fish to water. And even you will agree that to construct convoluted > arguments some form of education is necessary. So please do correct your > definition. > > The term Boddi basically delineates ­ draws the boundary of - caste. And in > Bengal - Bengal/ West Bengal/ East Pakistan/Bangladesh/ whatever, or if you > want another take Bangla/ Goudiya/ Kalinga/ whatever, for sake of simplicity > lets go with a concept called Bengal that is not connected to geography or > nation but is perhaps necessary to root the Bengali - who still insist that > the world has two simple of camps of Bengalis and non-Bengalis. (I won¹t use > Language as a definer for fear of digressing into another messy story.) So > in this concept called Bengal emerges a caste called Boddi. Stuck between > the Brahmin and non-Brahmins they insist on being more on the side of > Brahmins than non-Brahmins. The men wear the thread, the death-retreat is > for 11 days as versus 13 of the non-Brahmin Bengalis. But you know because > caste is far more vigilant than human wishes you can¹t be more or less, you > can only be this or that, or here or there. So the Boddis, grudgingly > allowed many Brahmin privileges including education are denied the > penultimate one: access to God. They can¹t carry out the ritual of religion. > That is kept for the Brahmins only. > > But despite their attempts at creating an exclusive space the Bengali > Brahmins are considered a bit outside it all by other Brahmins. As are the > Kashmiri Brahmins. Both eat meat you see. I mean the Brahmins from the > concept called Bengal and Kashmir eat meat. In the concept called Bengal, > quite a few hundred years ago my sir-namesake, one Ballar, invited 7 > Bhramins from Ujjain to initiate the caste system and watched in mute agony > his personal love life wash away in the deluge he unleashed. I am sure you > know better than me the story of genesis of caste in Kashmir. You are after > all the RIK. And you might know that in these conceptual states, having > begun late, they took to caste with the zeal of the new converts and forgot > to watch out for its evolution. Caste, though rigid, is not ossified and > continued to evolve and Brahminism went on to marry the virtuous > vegetarianism. The two Brahmins forgot to join the brigade and hence earned > contempt from the brethren. But perhaps both these communities, with > different histories, are similar in their love for food, and maybe they > didn¹t really want join the brigade fully because that would have been very, > very inconvenient. Where will be the great cuisines of Bengal (or Kashmir) > be without the flesh of dead animals? Although I must admit the Bengalis > tried quite hard. They have almost managed to convince themselves and quite > a fw others that fish is basically a vegetable from the sea. > > The logic of Caste is compelling and seductive. It delineates humans into > fixed boundaries of hierarchy determined at birth. At its root it provides > two very interesting principles: the first the doctrine of inequality (some > are born higher and thus must fare better than those born lower), the second > of divinity ­ God decreed that some are born higher and some lower, so > accept without question, it¹s authorised by God you see. > > Interestingly, because god is not restricted to the private domain of the > practicing Hindus many other religions/ systems too accept god, and as a > corollary, caste. Its simply one of the most brilliant ruling-class > strategies. How very wonderful if the subjects believed that they deserved > to be ruled, and how even more wonderful if they believed that they deserved > to be ruled by the present ruler. So Islam, the most liberal and emancipated > organised religion at its time of emergence, an organised religion that > recognised even say the rights of women to property and partner, comes to > India through many routes but conveniently adopts a version of caste system > when its readying to rule. See how could a Thakur converting to Islam for > convenience call a dhobi convert his brother? The roots of the Dalit > Christian is newer still. Even the newest organised religion Sikhism , > drawing heavily from philosophies of Islam, couldn¹t resist playing footsie > with caste. > > So M. Ray, call me a Hindu if you must but don¹t forget the boddi bit, its > important for this narrative. > > Hitler, drawing up the blue print of a ruling philosophy draws upon a > treatise of Nietzsche who draws this one from the Manusmriti written by one > Manu, the man who writes down the rigid structures of caste. You see in the > 1920s Hitler and his party the Nationalsozilistiche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei > (NSDAP) or the Nazi party, outside of a small groups of fanatical Bavarian > Nazis, are considered to be vulgar rabble-rousers. When he becomes the > chancellor in 1933 the percentage of vote is a mere 33% and people predict a > demise of the Nazis. But soon all that changes and the Nazis win the support > of the majority of the majority ­ they are able to convince the majority > about the superiority of some over other, a doctrine drawn from India, > defining the Aryan presented as Fascism. Films played an important role in > this shift. Film after film extolled a few principles and themes. The two > common and recurring themes in the Nazi films are blut und bloden (blood and > soil) and Volk und Heimat (People and homeland). The films though might not > have been so effective without ensuring that these were the only films seen. > All other voices needed to be blocked without blocking out all other voices > propaganda looses its power. > > Can you begin to see the torturous route of history? Don¹t the Nazi themes > still ring true? Blood and soil, people and homeland? The blocked voices? > Can you hear them? > > Another day if you remind me I¹ll tell you the story of Leni Reifenstahl and > the persistence of memory. No not the painting, but images that she created > that live on till date, images that dazzle, captivate and seduce. But allow > me today to tell you a quick story of my grandfather, the father of my > father the socialist. You see M. Ray my grandfather fitted your bill better > than me ­ today I am not many of those you describe me as ­ my grandfather > is/ was. Only in his case I am not sure about secular. Wonder what it means > really. Anyway my grandfather being a Bengali, Hindu and a refugee to boot > was probably a part of that bunch of backboneless cowards who couldn¹t > protect hearth or home. Maybe. But his problems were a little more > complicated. You see when he left, another bunch of people, some of who had > also butchered and raped and destroyed home and hearth, looked after his > property and practices ­ of a Hindu ­ with their entire strength. How does > one wish them away? > > You see, till Ayub Khan makes an appearance in the scene the borders were > open, with some minor restrictions. And my grandfather returned faithfully > each year, with his family, to carry out the yearly pujas. For some > inexplicable reason when he left in 1947 his neighbours, mostly Muslims, > looked after his house and the family god, the narayanshila which literally > is a black stone, but still needed to be fed, bathed and prayed to twice a > day. They ensured that that happened. Look at the irony. My grandfather and > his family and progeny were not, and are still not, allowed to touch the > narayanshila. Because only Brahmins can touch Gods, even when they are mere > stones representing god. The Muslim neighbours looked after not only the > property but also the narayanshila and ensured that a Brahmin did the > needful daily. Of course this story ended in 1952. And as he was not going > to be able to return my grandfather gifted the house to the local villagers > with a request to run a girls school, slipped the stone/ god into his pocket > and never returned. The black stone needed to be purified. It had been > touched by a non-Brahmin. But to the best of my knowledge the girls school > is still going on in one of my ancestral villages called Itna, nestled in > the banks of Madhumati, in the disrict of Jessore (or Jashore) in > Bangladesh. > > Don¹t mistake me my friends Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul. > My family has also seen the other side. What I call the horror stories. But > how can I see one and not see the other? And you know, stories like my > grandfather¹s are quite common too. I grew up in the western part of India. > Stories of neighbours protecting neighbours land, house, mango orchards > abound. In case you haven¹t noticed, I am now talking about Hindu¹s > protecting the property of Muslims who left. So teach me to how do I achieve > your vision? The ability to ignore and focus, or focus by ignoring? How do I > see one and not see the one next to it? How did you achieve this, and what > did you do to get it? > > Is it the steadfastness of Arjuna that inspires you? His ability to shut > everything out and shoot the moving target above his head, through a > whirling wheel to be seen only by looking down into its image reflected in > water? But even Arjuna dared to step out and explore. Not just out of his > kingdom but out of one of the strictest the boundaries of human race, that > of gender. As Brihannalla. For a whole year. Maybe that¹s why poor soul > couldn¹t quite make it as a Hindu icon. Its difficult indeed to ignore > Brihannala, or the questions s/he raises. > > Remember my father the socialist? He was a socialist till his death. But > when I was young, somewhat younger than you Aditya today, I became > fascinated by the words on the tombstone: philosophers have interpreted the > world, the point however is to change it. So I became passionately committed > to changing the world and my father the socialist and I argued endlessly, > passionately, continuously, till he died. I accused him and his ilk of > playing footsie with both Gandhians and Congress and thereby legitimising > both, later I accused him and his mentor of legitimising the Jan Sangh. He > accused me and my ilk of worse. In fact Rahul, had he been alive today he > would have happily, and wickedly, helped you enlarge your list and perhaps > your vision too. Anyway, we just didn¹t agree, on most things. But when I > worked on my first film, I must have been a little older than you are today > Aditya a film called the Right To Life that investigated the Jehanabad > massacre, he came to see it. Even though I was a lowly assistant to the > assistant, even though he vehemently opposed everything the film espoused. > He came and watched. He thought the the film was utter crap, not just > politically but craft-wise. Today, had he been alive I might have told him I > too think so, today. Anyway, the film had disturbed him in some ways, in the > violation of human rights it talks of, and my father the socialist, the > champion of unpopular causes organised many screenings of this film. > Remember it was a film with oppositional politics, remember it wasn¹t very > well made, and incidentally his daughter¹s name didn¹t get any significant > credits (just in case you think ah ha! nepotism!) but he thought there was > some redeeming feature and the film needed to be seen and argued about. Even > if he hated most of it. > > Today I wonder how was that possible? And tell me M. Ray what makes you > think I, or my family, have not witnessed pain or run away from truth? Just > because I don¹t talk about one kind of personal pain on a public list? Has > it even occurred to you that pain needs to be shared in different ways? Have > you seen Jash-e-azadi? Dare to see it, or at least see if you have the > courage to even think about seeing this film. > > My father the socialist also used to tell us stories. You see he loved many > things in his life, many many things: unpopular causes, his three pegs of > whisky every night, story telling, tinkering with new electronic gadgets, > but most of all he loved arguing, and nothing pleased him more than a well > crafted argument. Do you see? Which side the argument came from didn¹t > matter, the craft did. Now you should know M. Ray that to craft a good > argument you have to know a lot. So my father, a man without any formal > degree, read extensively, and everything. Because what used to annoy him was > a lazy argument. Does it surprise you if I say that I have seen this deeply > irreligious man read the Gita many times, and even the vedas and upanishads, > and of course various katha mritas of various saints from that concept > called Bengal? It shouldn¹t surprise you but I am afraid it will. > > So allow me to advance you a simple argument I learnt as a child on his lap. > I can¹t be a Hindu, and a secular, together. Not possible. Secular is > without religion and Hindu is a kind of a religion. The two don¹t go > together. Like night and day, both exist, can turn into each other, but > can¹t exist together in the same time and space. > > I won¹t tell you how my father would argue that there is no religion called > Hindu, lets leave that for another post. But I understand your problem. You > are trying to etch my profile, delineate my politics and position to create > a distinct identity. And as such delineation is indeed difficult if not > impossible you are condemned forever to using contradictory definitions like > secular Hindu. Together. Forever. Because that vision, that focused vision, > that focused-by-ignoring-others vision cannot see the contradiction, > certainly not an argument you don¹t agree with. > > And you forgot the boddi bit. I hope another sir-namesake called Ronen has > redeemed himself in your eyes somewhat? Made up a little for the other two > sir-namesakes? The first a crowned beauty, who has a child without a husband > and brazenly talks about it in public, and the second who develops those > annoying theories that put people before money and leads to the ESG scheme, > and gets the noble prize to boot? > > Why is the boddi bit necessary? You see I lost my faith. My father died with > his faith intact; his deep faith in humanity and his lack of faith in god ­ > this lack of faith by the way requires faith of truly immense kind. I lost > my faith in my lack of faith in faith. I instead found a man wearing a blue > suit who publicly converted to Buddhism with his people in ÂŒ56. He had said > - I am born a Hindu but I will not die as one. He died shortly after this > public act. Many years before this he had also publicly burned the > Manusmriti. By such public performances he added another complicated layer > to an already messy story of our lives and times and I lost my sense of > faith. Because while I can reject Hinduism I can no longer reject caste as a > social construct. Do you see M. Ray why the boddi bit is necessary? So today > I perhaps no longer have the same vision as Shuddha. But does it matter > really? I still love his posts. Especially the precisely crafted arguments, > the nuggets of information, the visuals in the words. And where is the > problem in this? What¹s the problem in accepting differences? To live with > differences? But to live with lazy arguments is another ball game > altogether. > > You see, my friends Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul allow me > to be straight forward. I have two problems with most of your posts. Your > arguments are weak. You can¹t keep taking recourse to pain as an argument. > Arguments need to be constructed and pain unfortunately can only be felt. So > to talk only of pain, over and over and over again without adding anything > else, apart from abuse and false accusations, has the danger of skidding > your position into the terrain of boredom. And even your abuse becomes > tedious, repetitive, boring. And the second problem I have is with the > strategy you describe and I read in the sub-texts of your posts and its > consequences. For if you try to stop arguments and points of view by force > or falsehood, if you try and still voices you don¹t agree with, you run into > two problems. First you end up giving a lot more credence to what you¹re > trying to stop. Second, and this is probably far more dangerous, if you > emerge victorious, i.e. if you are actually able to stop all voices you > don¹t like one day the silence of silenced voices will silence even your > litany of pain. > > Do you understand? Is that truly what you want? > > Gargi Sen > > > > On 9/1/07 11:19 AM, "MRSG" wrote: > > >>Dear >>I have not entered in this Kashmir debate execpt that I informed that >>Kashmir is only 20% of all J&K. (Generally I donot enter this e-debates, >>only because of my fellowship here, I go through this list and sometimes >>cannot resist to get involved) >>HOWEVER MY SUGGESTION TO YOU THAT NEVER LISTEN TO A 'SECULAR BENGALI HINDU >>REFUGEE'. They are the worst of backboneless people on the earth. Bengali >>hindus are being raped, killed, looted everyday in Bangladesh (previous East >>Pakistan) and they are coming in India everyday. But nearly all the refugees >>are not only silent but also go anyway to stop talking about it. While in >>las 50 years not a single muslim has migrated from West Bengal to >>EPakistan/Bangladesh, millions of bengali hindus have come to West Bengal >>and they are coming and coming. Bangladesh's hindu population has come down >>from 30% in 1951 to 9% in 2001, worst ethnic cleansing in modern history. >>Not only that. now Bangladeshi Muslims are coming in hordes. West Bengal's >>demography has changed. Its just matter of time to turn West Bengal into >>Bangladesh. SO PLEASE NEVER debate with them, its useless. Let them go on >>with their intellectual acrobatics till some day their houses are looted, >>their women are raped. If you can do anything yourself, do that only. >>M. Ray >> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 14:14:41 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:14:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? In-Reply-To: <46DBC7C1.5050007@sarai.net> References: <46DBC7C1.5050007@sarai.net> Message-ID: <13df7c120709030144w4bbc4ca5g6b07a4440ea6b86@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, Please please please...I beg of you for not writing about what you dont know. I do not support the idea of panun Kashmir.So better know things before you write your "great literary pieces" If you wish to win an argument,I can simply say you win if that makes you happy,but please dont write stuff you know paltry little about or are simply fed info. By the way what are the total number or man/woman hours you have spent in Kashmir or on Kashmir. Regards Rashneek On 9/3/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Gargi, dear all, > > Welcome to the latrine cleaners ! > > I think not knowing when and how to stop is a Bengali problem. Maybe > even a bengali boddi problem. Since I seem to have it too. And em, just > look at the terribly long winded embarrassment of my name, not just a > sen, but a secret sen, a sen-gupta. Cchi cchi cchi. Ki lojja. How > terribly our loquacious ancestors have burdened us with the curse of > interminable conversation, or as we say in Bangla, koch-kochani. > > many thanks for your marvellous contributions, and I am absolutely > riveted by your family history and your father's ability to laugh at and > with pain. And though our visions may or may not be divergent, I think > our jokes are still the same, and and I think that you will agree with > me the ability to laugh is just as important, that if not more, than > the ability to make or unmake revolutions, or to achieve enlightenment. > When I read the Dhammapadda, or the Tri Pitaka, the one thing I know is > that the Buddha had a great sense of humour. For instance, once, when > asked which country was the best, he wryly responded by posing a counter > question "show me one without sorrow and then I will have the ability to > answer this question". I have always claimed him as an early inspiration > for the lapse of my nationalism. > > Maybe I will dig into some stories myself, from our dark family closet, > some days, weeks, months, years later, if I ever have the guts that is. > > But for now, > > Here is a poem by Khalil Gibran, which I found quoted on a very > interesting website called Yamberzal, brought out by some young people > in the part of Kashmir that is occupied, no not by the republic of la la > land, (the republic o la la land only colonizes my right brain) but by > the Republic of India. You know, the Jai Pind, Jai Hind one. The one > that gets the artillery salute when the missiles are let out to shine on > 26 January. The one that is currently being sponsored by Airtel, or was > it Motorola. Anyway, I digress again, bad bengali boddi habit. > > I am not a great fan of Khalil Gibran, but given the current threads, > that bring pain, hyenas, laughter and tears so often and so vividly, I > thought that it might be of interest, > > ------------------------------------------------ > The Story of the Hyena and the Crocodile > by Khalil Gibran > > Upon the bank of the Nile at eventide > a hyena met a crocodile and they stopped > and greeted one another. > > The hyena spoke and said > "How goes the day with you, Sir?" > > And the crocodile answered saying, > 'it goes badly with me. > Sometimes in pain and sorrow I weep > And the creatures always say, > "They are but crocodile tears", > and this wounds me beyond all telling' > > Then the hyena says, > "You speak of your pain and your sorrow. > but think of me also for a moment, > I gaze at the beauty of the world, its wonders and its miracles > and out of sheer joy I laugh, even as the day laughs? > > And then the people of the jungle say, > "its but the laughter of the hyena." > --------------- > I found this website (Yamberzal), somewhat by accident, while re-reading > vitriol from Pawan Durani, Rashneek Kher and someone else called > Vishakha, where else, but on the comments section of the 'Jashn=e=Azadi' > blog at - > > http://kashmirfilm.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/screening-news-1/ > > This is to underscore (okay, pointlessly, but what the heck) that it is > an utterly shameless lie that critical views of Sanjay Kak's film > automatically meet the fate of the censor, on the said blog. Follow the > links and I will rest my (heavy suit-)case > > Anyway, I am a bit tired of the A.R.K.P machine, and this conversation > has moved on to vastly more interesting things.So, if you scroll down > the right side of the webpage you hit a series of interesting links > including one to Rashneek's Blog - 'Ephemeral Existence', and in the > blog roll just above Ephemeral Existence is 'Yamberzal' > > http://yembarzal.blogspot.com/ > > Now go to > http://yembarzal.blogspot.com/2007/04/other-side.html > > and read what is written there - a very young person, a young Kashmiri > muslim in a blog that is clearly sympathetic to the notion of 'azadi' as > is evident from the content of the rest of the blog, is anguished at the > violence that 'her' side is dishing out, her voice condemns the Indian > army, but she is just as angry at how the indiscriminate use of violence > by militants, grenade attacks in public places have led to sorrow. Her > anger is against those who claim to act on her behalf just as much as it > is directed against the state power that oppresses her. I have yet to > see even a fraction of this capacity to be self reflexive or self > critical in any of the blogs and websites that emanate from the 'Panun > Kashmir' armada, of which A.R.K.P are but an advanced flotilla. > > Elsewhere in this blog (Yamberzal) there is much that is of interest. > There is anger, sorrow, pain, but there is also laughter, gentleness, > enthusiasm and very high spirits. It isn't just pain, pain, pain, pain > like a drill in our heads. And remember, this comes from young people > who are too young to remember or know what a Kashmir without those > 700,000 soldiers sent by the occupying power even looked like, or felt > like. They have been at the blunt end of the occupation. > > I have found many voices like this in Kashmir, young people who have not > surrendered their minds and their souls to a one dimensional narrative > of victimhood and an endless litany of their agony. It takes time to > draw out their narratives of torture, and everyone has that narrative, > but it is not dished out as a calling card. And I respect that spirit. > The spirit that is able to look at me, an 'Indian'to them, and look me > in the eye with honesty and friendship and without accusation, without > ever confusing how they relate to me as a person who happens to be an > Indian citizen with what they think about the state machinery that holds > them in subjection. It has never made it impossible for them to share > laughter with me, and the ability to have conversations about lots of > other things, difficult things, pleaurable and painful things, and even > the things that all our own people ('their' militants / 'our' soldiers - > yuck what an ugly, clumsy, stupid 'us and them' formulation, but it will > do for the moment) do that none of us, neither me, nor them, can be > proud of. > > Sometimes they and I meet at the bridge where the people some would call > traitors meet, coming from opposite sides. > > And believe me, just as, despite, what A.R.K.P says, us 'la-la landers' > have very little influence or power (and nor do we seek any, but if we > had some, why would we be so ineffectual in ending the occupation? and > can he tell us where to get some, power, I mean, is it going cheap?), so > too, they, the ones in occupied Kashmir who chafe at the frightening > menace of the Indian army and the (no, I won't say 'equally', because it > isn't and can't be 'equal', so lets not play a parlour game about > balance here) can be at the receiving end of harsh violence of some > 'militants'. Because soldiers and partisans do not have much patience > with nuances and shades and ambiguities, and the difficult task of > knowing that it is difficult, not easy, to be loyal. We meet on very > difficult ground. (Apologies for these very convoluted sentences, which > should have met an editor before they left the keyboard) > > Thanks Gargi, I thought that you might enjoy this link, and the story of > the Hyena and the Crocodile. > > Shuddha > > Meanwhile, I am still waiting for Pawan to tell me whether he has, or > has ever had any regrets over the violence that has been perpetrated in > his name. Come on, try playing 'traitor-traitor' it can be fun, patriots > only have anthems, our songs are a little rusty, maybe, but we also have > a sense of humour, and no we wont charge you money for it. > > > > > Gargi Sen wrote: > > Hello Everybody, > > I am not a writer but have nevertheless discovered the two banes in the > life > > of a writer. First, how to start, and second, how to stop. As I have > merely > > crossed the first hurdle I crave your indulgence. And apologies for > another > > mail addressed to a few people on the list. > > Gargi > > > > Dear M. Ray (and of course my young friends Aditya, Rashneek , > Kshemendra , > > Pawan and Rahul) > > > > M. Ray I am a little annoyed with you. How could you forget my ÂŒboddi¹ > > lineage and its implication? While the non-Bengalis on this list will > not > > know what I am talking about you should know better. Because either you > are > > a Bengali or you know enough about Bengalis - who insist on seeing the > world > > divided into two simple camps: Bengalis and non-Bengalis - to so > astutely > > identify my roots. But how could you forget the boddi bit? After all > most > > all boddi women, and men, are enormously proud of their levels of > education. > > And to the best of my knowledge, from that part of the world, after the > > Khasi women, I believe it was the boddi Bengali women who took to > education > > like fish to water. And even you will agree that to construct convoluted > > arguments some form of education is necessary. So please do correct your > > definition. > > > > The term Boddi basically delineates ­ draws the boundary of - caste. > And in > > Bengal - Bengal/ West Bengal/ East Pakistan/Bangladesh/ whatever, or if > you > > want another take Bangla/ Goudiya/ Kalinga/ whatever, for sake of > simplicity > > lets go with a concept called Bengal that is not connected to geography > or > > nation but is perhaps necessary to root the Bengali - who still insist > that > > the world has two simple of camps of Bengalis and non-Bengalis. (I > won¹t use > > Language as a definer for fear of digressing into another messy story.) > So > > in this concept called Bengal emerges a caste called Boddi. Stuck > between > > the Brahmin and non-Brahmins they insist on being more on the side of > > Brahmins than non-Brahmins. The men wear the thread, the death-retreat > is > > for 11 days as versus 13 of the non-Brahmin Bengalis. But you know > because > > caste is far more vigilant than human wishes you can¹t be more or less, > you > > can only be this or that, or here or there. So the Boddis, grudgingly > > allowed many Brahmin privileges including education are denied the > > penultimate one: access to God. They can¹t carry out the ritual of > religion. > > That is kept for the Brahmins only. > > > > But despite their attempts at creating an exclusive space the Bengali > > Brahmins are considered a bit outside it all by other Brahmins. As are > the > > Kashmiri Brahmins. Both eat meat you see. I mean the Brahmins from the > > concept called Bengal and Kashmir eat meat. In the concept called > Bengal, > > quite a few hundred years ago my sir-namesake, one Ballar, invited 7 > > Bhramins from Ujjain to initiate the caste system and watched in mute > agony > > his personal love life wash away in the deluge he unleashed. I am sure > you > > know better than me the story of genesis of caste in Kashmir. You are > after > > all the RIK. And you might know that in these conceptual states, having > > begun late, they took to caste with the zeal of the new converts and > forgot > > to watch out for its evolution. Caste, though rigid, is not ossified and > > continued to evolve and Brahminism went on to marry the virtuous > > vegetarianism. The two Brahmins forgot to join the brigade and hence > earned > > contempt from the brethren. But perhaps both these communities, with > > different histories, are similar in their love for food, and maybe they > > didn¹t really want join the brigade fully because that would have been > very, > > very inconvenient. Where will be the great cuisines of Bengal (or > Kashmir) > > be without the flesh of dead animals? Although I must admit the Bengalis > > tried quite hard. They have almost managed to convince themselves and > quite > > a fw others that fish is basically a vegetable from the sea. > > > > The logic of Caste is compelling and seductive. It delineates humans > into > > fixed boundaries of hierarchy determined at birth. At its root it > provides > > two very interesting principles: the first the doctrine of inequality > (some > > are born higher and thus must fare better than those born lower), the > second > > of divinity ­ God decreed that some are born higher and some lower, so > > accept without question, it¹s authorised by God you see. > > > > Interestingly, because god is not restricted to the private domain of > the > > practicing Hindus many other religions/ systems too accept god, and as a > > corollary, caste. Its simply one of the most brilliant ruling-class > > strategies. How very wonderful if the subjects believed that they > deserved > > to be ruled, and how even more wonderful if they believed that they > deserved > > to be ruled by the present ruler. So Islam, the most liberal and > emancipated > > organised religion at its time of emergence, an organised religion that > > recognised even say the rights of women to property and partner, comes > to > > India through many routes but conveniently adopts a version of caste > system > > when its readying to rule. See how could a Thakur converting to Islam > for > > convenience call a dhobi convert his brother? The roots of the Dalit > > Christian is newer still. Even the newest organised religion Sikhism , > > drawing heavily from philosophies of Islam, couldn¹t resist playing > footsie > > with caste. > > > > So M. Ray, call me a Hindu if you must but don¹t forget the boddi bit, > its > > important for this narrative. > > > > Hitler, drawing up the blue print of a ruling philosophy draws upon a > > treatise of Nietzsche who draws this one from the Manusmriti written by > one > > Manu, the man who writes down the rigid structures of caste. You see in > the > > 1920s Hitler and his party the Nationalsozilistiche Deutsche > Arbeiterpartei > > (NSDAP) or the Nazi party, outside of a small groups of fanatical > Bavarian > > Nazis, are considered to be vulgar rabble-rousers. When he becomes the > > chancellor in 1933 the percentage of vote is a mere 33% and people > predict a > > demise of the Nazis. But soon all that changes and the Nazis win the > support > > of the majority of the majority ­ they are able to convince the > majority > > about the superiority of some over other, a doctrine drawn from India, > > defining the Aryan presented as Fascism. Films played an important role > in > > this shift. Film after film extolled a few principles and themes. The > two > > common and recurring themes in the Nazi films are blut und bloden (blood > and > > soil) and Volk und Heimat (People and homeland). The films though might > not > > have been so effective without ensuring that these were the only films > seen. > > All other voices needed to be blocked without blocking out all other > voices > > propaganda looses its power. > > > > Can you begin to see the torturous route of history? Don¹t the Nazi > themes > > still ring true? Blood and soil, people and homeland? The blocked > voices? > > Can you hear them? > > > > Another day if you remind me I¹ll tell you the story of Leni > Reifenstahl and > > the persistence of memory. No not the painting, but images that she > created > > that live on till date, images that dazzle, captivate and seduce. But > allow > > me today to tell you a quick story of my grandfather, the father of my > > father the socialist. You see M. Ray my grandfather fitted your bill > better > > than me ­ today I am not many of those you describe me as ­ my > grandfather > > is/ was. Only in his case I am not sure about secular. Wonder what it > means > > really. Anyway my grandfather being a Bengali, Hindu and a refugee to > boot > > was probably a part of that bunch of backboneless cowards who couldn¹t > > protect hearth or home. Maybe. But his problems were a little more > > complicated. You see when he left, another bunch of people, some of who > had > > also butchered and raped and destroyed home and hearth, looked after his > > property and practices ­ of a Hindu ­ with their entire strength. How > does > > one wish them away? > > > > You see, till Ayub Khan makes an appearance in the scene the borders > were > > open, with some minor restrictions. And my grandfather returned > faithfully > > each year, with his family, to carry out the yearly pujas. For some > > inexplicable reason when he left in 1947 his neighbours, mostly Muslims, > > looked after his house and the family god, the narayanshila which > literally > > is a black stone, but still needed to be fed, bathed and prayed to twice > a > > day. They ensured that that happened. Look at the irony. My grandfather > and > > his family and progeny were not, and are still not, allowed to touch the > > narayanshila. Because only Brahmins can touch Gods, even when they are > mere > > stones representing god. The Muslim neighbours looked after not only the > > property but also the narayanshila and ensured that a Brahmin did the > > needful daily. Of course this story ended in 1952. And as he was not > going > > to be able to return my grandfather gifted the house to the local > villagers > > with a request to run a girls school, slipped the stone/ god into his > pocket > > and never returned. The black stone needed to be purified. It had been > > touched by a non-Brahmin. But to the best of my knowledge the girls > school > > is still going on in one of my ancestral villages called Itna, nestled > in > > the banks of Madhumati, in the disrict of Jessore (or Jashore) in > > Bangladesh. > > > > Don¹t mistake me my friends Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and > Rahul. > > My family has also seen the other side. What I call the horror stories. > But > > how can I see one and not see the other? And you know, stories like my > > grandfather¹s are quite common too. I grew up in the western part of > India. > > Stories of neighbours protecting neighbours land, house, mango orchards > > abound. In case you haven¹t noticed, I am now talking about Hindu¹s > > protecting the property of Muslims who left. So teach me to how do I > achieve > > your vision? The ability to ignore and focus, or focus by ignoring? How > do I > > see one and not see the one next to it? How did you achieve this, and > what > > did you do to get it? > > > > Is it the steadfastness of Arjuna that inspires you? His ability to shut > > everything out and shoot the moving target above his head, through a > > whirling wheel to be seen only by looking down into its image reflected > in > > water? But even Arjuna dared to step out and explore. Not just out of > his > > kingdom but out of one of the strictest the boundaries of human race, > that > > of gender. As Brihannalla. For a whole year. Maybe that¹s why poor soul > > couldn¹t quite make it as a Hindu icon. Its difficult indeed to ignore > > Brihannala, or the questions s/he raises. > > > > Remember my father the socialist? He was a socialist till his death. But > > when I was young, somewhat younger than you Aditya today, I became > > fascinated by the words on the tombstone: philosophers have interpreted > the > > world, the point however is to change it. So I became passionately > committed > > to changing the world and my father the socialist and I argued > endlessly, > > passionately, continuously, till he died. I accused him and his ilk of > > playing footsie with both Gandhians and Congress and thereby > legitimising > > both, later I accused him and his mentor of legitimising the Jan Sangh. > He > > accused me and my ilk of worse. In fact Rahul, had he been alive today > he > > would have happily, and wickedly, helped you enlarge your list and > perhaps > > your vision too. Anyway, we just didn¹t agree, on most things. But when > I > > worked on my first film, I must have been a little older than you are > today > > Aditya a film called the Right To Life that investigated the Jehanabad > > massacre, he came to see it. Even though I was a lowly assistant to the > > assistant, even though he vehemently opposed everything the film > espoused. > > He came and watched. He thought the the film was utter crap, not just > > politically but craft-wise. Today, had he been alive I might have told > him I > > too think so, today. Anyway, the film had disturbed him in some ways, in > the > > violation of human rights it talks of, and my father the socialist, the > > champion of unpopular causes organised many screenings of this film. > > Remember it was a film with oppositional politics, remember it wasn¹t > very > > well made, and incidentally his daughter¹s name didn¹t get any > significant > > credits (just in case you think ah ha! nepotism!) but he thought there > was > > some redeeming feature and the film needed to be seen and argued about. > Even > > if he hated most of it. > > > > Today I wonder how was that possible? And tell me M. Ray what makes you > > think I, or my family, have not witnessed pain or run away from truth? > Just > > because I don¹t talk about one kind of personal pain on a public list? > Has > > it even occurred to you that pain needs to be shared in different ways? > Have > > you seen Jash-e-azadi? Dare to see it, or at least see if you have the > > courage to even think about seeing this film. > > > > My father the socialist also used to tell us stories. You see he loved > many > > things in his life, many many things: unpopular causes, his three pegs > of > > whisky every night, story telling, tinkering with new electronic > gadgets, > > but most of all he loved arguing, and nothing pleased him more than a > well > > crafted argument. Do you see? Which side the argument came from didn¹t > > matter, the craft did. Now you should know M. Ray that to craft a good > > argument you have to know a lot. So my father, a man without any formal > > degree, read extensively, and everything. Because what used to annoy him > was > > a lazy argument. Does it surprise you if I say that I have seen this > deeply > > irreligious man read the Gita many times, and even the vedas and > upanishads, > > and of course various katha mritas of various saints from that concept > > called Bengal? It shouldn¹t surprise you but I am afraid it will. > > > > So allow me to advance you a simple argument I learnt as a child on his > lap. > > I can¹t be a Hindu, and a secular, together. Not possible. Secular is > > without religion and Hindu is a kind of a religion. The two don¹t go > > together. Like night and day, both exist, can turn into each other, but > > can¹t exist together in the same time and space. > > > > I won¹t tell you how my father would argue that there is no religion > called > > Hindu, lets leave that for another post. But I understand your problem. > You > > are trying to etch my profile, delineate my politics and position to > create > > a distinct identity. And as such delineation is indeed difficult if not > > impossible you are condemned forever to using contradictory definitions > like > > secular Hindu. Together. Forever. Because that vision, that focused > vision, > > that focused-by-ignoring-others vision cannot see the contradiction, > > certainly not an argument you don¹t agree with. > > > > And you forgot the boddi bit. I hope another sir-namesake called Ronen > has > > redeemed himself in your eyes somewhat? Made up a little for the other > two > > sir-namesakes? The first a crowned beauty, who has a child without a > husband > > and brazenly talks about it in public, and the second who develops those > > annoying theories that put people before money and leads to the ESG > scheme, > > and gets the noble prize to boot? > > > > Why is the boddi bit necessary? You see I lost my faith. My father died > with > > his faith intact; his deep faith in humanity and his lack of faith in > god ­ > > this lack of faith by the way requires faith of truly immense kind. I > lost > > my faith in my lack of faith in faith. I instead found a man wearing a > blue > > suit who publicly converted to Buddhism with his people in ÂŒ56. He had > said > > - I am born a Hindu but I will not die as one. He died shortly after > this > > public act. Many years before this he had also publicly burned the > > Manusmriti. By such public performances he added another complicated > layer > > to an already messy story of our lives and times and I lost my sense of > > faith. Because while I can reject Hinduism I can no longer reject caste > as a > > social construct. Do you see M. Ray why the boddi bit is necessary? So > today > > I perhaps no longer have the same vision as Shuddha. But does it matter > > really? I still love his posts. Especially the precisely crafted > arguments, > > the nuggets of information, the visuals in the words. And where is the > > problem in this? What¹s the problem in accepting differences? To live > with > > differences? But to live with lazy arguments is another ball game > > altogether. > > > > You see, my friends Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul > allow me > > to be straight forward. I have two problems with most of your posts. > Your > > arguments are weak. You can¹t keep taking recourse to pain as an > argument. > > Arguments need to be constructed and pain unfortunately can only be > felt. So > > to talk only of pain, over and over and over again without adding > anything > > else, apart from abuse and false accusations, has the danger of skidding > > your position into the terrain of boredom. And even your abuse becomes > > tedious, repetitive, boring. And the second problem I have is with the > > strategy you describe and I read in the sub-texts of your posts and its > > consequences. For if you try to stop arguments and points of view by > force > > or falsehood, if you try and still voices you don¹t agree with, you run > into > > two problems. First you end up giving a lot more credence to what > you¹re > > trying to stop. Second, and this is probably far more dangerous, if you > > emerge victorious, i.e. if you are actually able to stop all voices you > > don¹t like one day the silence of silenced voices will silence even > your > > litany of pain. > > > > Do you understand? Is that truly what you want? > > > > Gargi Sen > > > > > > > > On 9/1/07 11:19 AM, "MRSG" wrote: > > > > > >>Dear > >>I have not entered in this Kashmir debate execpt that I informed that > >>Kashmir is only 20% of all J&K. (Generally I donot enter this e-debates, > >>only because of my fellowship here, I go through this list and sometimes > >>cannot resist to get involved) > >>HOWEVER MY SUGGESTION TO YOU THAT NEVER LISTEN TO A 'SECULAR BENGALI > HINDU > >>REFUGEE'. They are the worst of backboneless people on the earth. > Bengali > >>hindus are being raped, killed, looted everyday in Bangladesh (previous > East > >>Pakistan) and they are coming in India everyday. But nearly all the > refugees > >>are not only silent but also go anyway to stop talking about it. While > in > >>las 50 years not a single muslim has migrated from West Bengal to > >>EPakistan/Bangladesh, millions of bengali hindus have come to West > Bengal > >>and they are coming and coming. Bangladesh's hindu population has come > down > >>from 30% in 1951 to 9% in 2001, worst ethnic cleansing in modern > history. > >>Not only that. now Bangladeshi Muslims are coming in hordes. West > Bengal's > >>demography has changed. Its just matter of time to turn West Bengal into > >>Bangladesh. SO PLEASE NEVER debate with them, its useless. Let them go > on > >>with their intellectual acrobatics till some day their houses are > looted, > >>their women are raped. If you can do anything yourself, do that only. > >>M. Ray > >> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 3 14:28:45 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 14:28:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DBCCC5.9050606@sarai.net> Dear Ms. Durani, I had put only one question to you, which remains unanswered. In reply to your post on R.J Rummel (excellent post by the way) I had said that I, as a Communist, am fully prepared to atone, grieve and mourn for all those who had been (or are being killed) in the name of Communism. (Most of whom were communists).I have no hesitation in saying that the history of Communism, in which I am implicated as a Communist, however marginally, is for the major part, a tragedy. I have tried, and am still trying to come to terms with that tragedy. I asked you if you, in turn, were prepared to atone, grieve, mourn, say sorry for all those who had been killed in the name of the Indian nation, and in the name of keeping Jammu and Kashmir within the Indian Union. This is a very simple question, and it has two very simple answers, either yes, or no. The maybe option does not exist, because either one grieves and mourns, or one does not grive and mourn. One doesn't half grieve, quarter mourn. Please respond regards, Shuddha Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Ms Sengupta , > > I would quickly go thorogh few questions you have put forward to me. > > 1. You have mentioned that few appeals of terrorists in Kashmir for return > of Kashmiri Pandits to valley may be sincere . However have you ever read > anywhere that the same people have ever tried to get the killers of Kashmiri > pandits to Justice ? What makes you believe that we should believe them > ,when even now threats are being issued to kashmiri pandits , and the so > called moderate just express their helplessness. > > 2. The mosque where you went to with your friend in Khankah was a kali > temple. Till 1989 we just used to pray by applying vermillion on the wall of > that temple. Did your friend tell you about that ? > > 3. You too are one who believe that jagmohan made kashmiri pandits leave the > valley. What more can an example of a perfect brainwash. Would any sane > person , unless feeling insecure, leave his home at the call of someone ? > Would someone leave his home, orchards to live in tent without a penny in > his pocket just because jagmohan asked him to do so. > > You have no knowledge . You are explaining the reason of my exodus to me . > You have no idea of how I felt when i was alone in my house with my mother > and sister with thousands of gun carrying mobs running carzily > outside.Youhave no idea when my two neigbours includinga 88 year old > person were killed > and labelled mukhbirs. > > Thank you for first explaining me how to translate Kashmiri rightly and now > a bigger thanks for explaining to me why I had to leave Kashmir and had to > live in exile. > > God Bless > > Pawan Durani > > > > > On 9/2/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >>Dear all, dear Pawan, >> >>I totally agree with Pawan Durani that an accounting for the genocidial >>violence unleashed by the regimes that were in power in the Soviet >>Union, and the one that continues to be in power in the Peoples Republic >>of China is necessary.I say this, as someone who was raised within the >>Communist tradition, and as someone who has no hesitation in saying that >>I continue to hope for a stateless, classless global society, free of >>nations, corporate profit and war, if not in my lifetime, then at least >>in the lifetime of generations to come. Everyone has their own vision of >>a better world, I have mine, parts of which or all of which I might >>share with the visions of others, as they might share theirs with mine, >>and I do not see any reason to be apologetic for that vision. I say this >>because I have no shame, or regret in calling myself a Communist. I am >>not now, nor ever have been a member of any communist party, but just as >>I hope it is possible for people to consider themselves Hindu even if >>they were not member of the RSS, or Muslims even if they did not >>necessarily subscribe to a specific jamaat, or Christians who followed >>the example of Christ rather than the doctrine of an organized church, I >>do believe that it is possible to consider oneself a non-party Communist. >> >>Communists, more than anyone else, must deal with, account for and take >>responsibility for the fact that their convictions were perverted and >>held hostage by ruling formations, cliques and classes that led to some >>of the most vicious and ruthless dictatorships known to human history. >>They must account for letting this happen, even when they were >>themselves the first and most frequent victims of these regimes. Their >>being victims of Stalin's purges does not excuse them from the >>responsibility of creating a figure like Stalin in the first place. The >>totalitarian nightmare of Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, Caesescu's Rumania >>or Hoxha's Albania are not a legacy that anyone can be proud of. Nor can >>we be proud of the intrigue and petty authoritarianisms that mark the >>Trotskyite and Maoist or Marxist Leninist formations that continue to >>function, after a fashion, in our midst. >> >>I say this knowing that the majority of those who perished in Stalin's >>gulag, were, Communists. When Leon Trotsky ordered soldiers to fire on >>the striking sailors of the Kronstadt, he was a communist sanctioning >>the murder of communist militants. The millions who died in Siberia, who >>went to forced labour camps, were Communists. They went to the firing >>squad singing the Internationale - a song whose jaunty tune still has >>the capacity to lift my spirits on a glum day. And I love to whistle it >>when it rains.Still, It breaks my heart to hear it sung, because it is a >>song sung by executioners and by those that thyt executed, but hey, who >>said the world was a simple place where it all works out in the end? >>Everything is messy, and each of our histories is part of the mess. >> >>All this happenned, in my opinion, because, the nationalist logic of >>'Socialism in One Country' and/or a tragic romance with the >>intoxication of newly won state power perverted the deeply democratic >>and internationalist elan of the global communist movement beyond >>imagination. From a movement that actively desired the withering away of >>the state, it became a political formation that presided over the >>withering away of society, of everything but the state. This is an >>object lesson for all revolutionaries and insurgents. Yesterday's >>fighters for freedom often become tomorrows prison wardens. I know of no >>exceptions. >> >>The logic of Capital is not necessarily a logic of private property. >>Advanced forms of Capitalism actually abolish private property, >>concentrating socially produced wealth in giant coroporate abstractions >>far more efficiently than 'nationalization' by so called socialist >>regimes can. What happenned in the Soviet Union, China and the erstwhile >>so called 'Peoples Democracies' was not 'socialism, or communism' but a >>monstrous amalgam of Capital and the State in the name of saving, yes, >>the Nation State. That is why there is no contradiction between the >>hyper capitalism that prevails in China today and the twisted dialectic >>of Mao Zedong thought. That is why Stalinists adore big dams, nuclear >>power and nuclear weapons to the extent that they do. >> >>Our own so called Communist Parties are no exception. I would like to >>illustrate this with an example that has current relevance, which has >>been gestured to even in the link that Pawan Durani has forwarded in one >>of his recent postings, and which might be of interest to some - I am >>talking of the current impasse over what is being called the 'nuclear >>deal' with the United States of America. Having deceived most people in >>this country, that they were against the Nuclear Weapons programme, they >>(the mainstream parliamentary left, led by the two so called Communist >>Parties) have now come around to a public posture of trying to create a >>protective 'fence' around our own weaponization programme, which is what >>they mean as 'strategic autonomy' under the banner of national >>sovereignty. In doing this, they have come full circle, and are now >>saying more or less exactly what the BJP has been saying all along. They >>are also in the same ideological boat as the ruling juntas in Islamabad, >>Tehran and Tel Aviv, which are also committed, overtly and sometimes >>covertly, to their own 'patriotic' nuclear deterrents. >> >>I am not an advocate of the 1-2-3 Treaty that will lock India locked >>into a military embrace with the United States. I am totally opposed to >>it, and I think that it will put us all in harm's way. But I think that >>the only way to oppose it is to insist on de-nuclearization - by arguing >>for the scrapping of the nuclear weapons fantasies of our ruling elites >>and by creating a sharp and coherent opposition to the idea of India >>becoming some sort of super power in Asia. This process (of achieving >>super power status) will being untold misery on the people who live in >>this country and in Asia at large. The greedy fantasy of energy security >>which makes our ruling elites salivate at the thought of sending Indian >>troops to guard 'indian' interests and assets in central asia is >>something that sends shivers down my spines. For the sake of all our >>futures, I hope such dreams are never realized. They will lead us >>straight towards war, and disaster. >> >>But our mainstream parliamentary left is as involved in living out this >>fantasy as anyone else is. It's argument for 'strategic autonomy' means >>that it wants to keep India's arsenal of nuclear weapons, wants to >>strike a patriotic pose, and is willing at a pinch, basically to hand >>this country back to the right reaction of the BJP - all in the name of >>proving how nationalist they are. The red in their flags is turning >>slowly to saffron. >> >>The choice that we could be making as a society is not one of choosing >>to strike alliances between an Imperialist United States or a fascist >>Iran, or an expansionist China. The only choice worth making is that of >>jettisoning nuclear weapons, demilitarizing South Asia, firstly by >>finding a solution to Kashmir that is acceptable to the majority of the >>people who live there, by making peace with our neighbours, and by >>ending the military occupations of the north eastern territories. It is >>a sign of the poverty of political imaginations in this country today >>that these choices are precisely those that the so called 'left' parties >>are bent on jettisoning but clinging to their new found doctrine of >>'strategic autonomy', which puts them straight in bed, whether they like >>it or not, with the Bharatiya Janata Party. >> >>It was nationalism that perverted the communist ideal. That made the >>Soviet Union travel a distance from being the product of a revolution >>that had abolished the standing army to becoming a power that could only >>sustain itself with brute military force, and then not at all. >> >>From a conviction that held only one thing sacred, and that being that >>the world should have no walls, it became an ideology that built walls >>and the barbed wire fences of the gulag. From a form of political >>culture that privileged the widest liberty, with Rosa Luxemburg stating >>that freedom of expression is not freedom unless it is for those who are >>against us - communist parties travelled a long distance - to presiding >>over the routine suffocation of all dissent with a banal brutality. >> >>And for all this, I hold the virus of nationalism, to a large measure >>responsible. That is why though I have no quarrel with people who use >>the label socialist, communist, or even anarchist to describe my >>positions, I will never agree to be called a nationalist. When you put >>nationalism and socialism together, you get something called National >>Socialism. And effectively, there is little for me to choose between the >>National Socialism that prevailed in Germany from 1933 to 1945 and the >>Socialist Nationalism that prevailed in USSR, for the better part of the >>twentieth century, and that continues to prevail in China today. The >>differences that do exist are not of kind, but of degree. >> >>I am willing to accept the necessity to conduct a personal atonement for >>the millions who perished under regimes that called themselves >>communist. I personally think that it is the responsibility of anyone >>who calls himself or herself a communist today to undertake to mourn for >>all those who were (or are being) killed or displaced or imprisoned or >>imprisoned in the name of communism, to repent and ask for forgiveness. >> >>Because I am a communist, I hold nothing higher than humanity - >>ordinary simple humanity - just the worth of human beings as human >>beings, in all their unpredictable, unscriptable variety. Neither >>nations, nor parties, nor god, nor gods, nor any ideal or abstraction of >>progress can be more important than the health and well being of a >>child, or the freedom to do with our time, our leisure and our labour >>power as we see fit. I do not want martyrs or heroes, I want to live my >>life with ordinary people, doing ordinary things. I want no one I love >>or care for to have to die for the sake of a flag or any abstract idea, >>because flags and abstractions cannot feed, clothe or shelter human >>beings with dignity or liberty for all. >> >>This does not mean that we abandon politics, it just means that we work >>very hard to fashion a politics that does not demand the sacrificial >>offering of our humanity on a daily, hourly basis. I am willing to >>engage with anyone, no matter what they believe in, who is sincerely >>committed to this enterprise. But it does require us all to take a long >>and hard look at ourselves. I want to know which political ideology, >>which nation, which religious faith has not, in the history of humanity >>demanded and received its due in blood. Everyone can claim the status of >>victims for themselves, and everyone has the blood of others on their >>hands. And the arithmetic of who has killed more, and who has killed >>less is far less interesting than the more difficult and demanding task >>of accounting for the actions of the executioners on your own side. >> >>What I want to know is, will those who call themselves nationalists >>undertake to mourn for all those who have been killed in order that >>their beloved and sacred nations remain the fictions that they are on >>the map of the world? >> >>For me, the communist idea remains what it was for the Communards of the >>Paris Commune, for the partisans of the Petersburgh Soviet and for the >>Workers and Peasant Councils of Republican Spain - that of a world, and >>a social order where people, not corporations or governments, control >>the relations they enter into in order to produce the things that make >>life possible and worth living. A world without armies, states, police >>forces, intelligence agencies, weapons traders, or factories that >>pollute the earth or poison peoples bodies. A world without alienated >>and alienating labour. Where each of us labour according to our >>capacities and receive the fruits of our labour according to our >>neends. Where we begin to move from the shackles of necessity to the >>emancipation of desire. >> >>For this reason, I am willing most of all, to look hard and long at the >>legacies that I have inherited, and subject them to the sharpest >>possible critique if they are found poor and wanting in relation to the >>dream of a just and free world. If this list is a place where we can all >>begin this process of reflection on the limitations and areas of >>darkness within all that we profess and have inherited - whether as >>liberals, islamists, hindutva-vadis, secularists, nationalists, cynics >>and sceptics then it will be worth the provocation that Pawan Durani has >>put before us. I thought I would rise to the bait, and risk making a >>fool of myself, if necessary. Of course, if we all think that none of us >>have anything to reflect on or atone for, I, and I hope Pawan, will be >>sorely disappointed. >> >>Your turn Pawan. Tell me what you think is wrong with the fact that the >>Indian state killed so many thousands of people in Kashmir. Do you think >>there is anything wrong? Or would you like to pass over these >>thousands of deaths in silence. >> >>I have heard more than the odd person with separatist sentiments in >>Kashmir make the gesture of apology for the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, >>and for the death of Kashmiri pandits, for the destruction of their >>property. Sometimes the sadness and regret in that apology is a ritual, >>but often it is not fake. I walked with a friend in Srinagar one night >>in the vicinity of the Khanqah and mosque of Shah Hamadan, and he >>pointed out to me a place close by the bank of the river where a shrine >>once stood, and then we both stood in front of it in silence for a >>while. And he tried to find words to talk about the strange days of >>1989. It wasn't easy for him, and I did not make it easy for him, but >>the conversation did not damage our friendship. >> >>He told me what I knew already, about the way Jagmohan, then then >>governor of Jammu and Kashmir, engineered the exodus, about the rumours >>and panic that was spread through the grapevines carefully cultivated by >>the state, and about the painful slogans in the streets. All this I >>know, we all know. But he also said, "It was wrong of the state to make >>them go, It was wrong on the part of those that created the climate of >>fear (and he meant the separatists, or those within their ranks who had >>undoubtedly attacked some high profile Kasmiri Pandit individualsr, and >>it was wrong on their part for them to go and to leave us at the mercy >>of the state, but it was also wrong on our part that we did so little to >>make them stay". >> >>I want you to think carefully and tell me if you can respect this >>feeling of loss? I agree that you have every reason for your pain, but >>what if I said, abandoning those who were your neighbours also gave them >>no opportunity to heal or at least address your pain. Have you ever >>considered what it is like to be yourself, when someone who is not you, >>who is the other, is no longer there to speak to, to be with, to be >>different from? What is the strange loss we feel when the person we >>think is our most intense antagonist leaves us alone to be with >>ourselves? For many Kashmiri's who remain where they have always lived, >>who did not have places to go to where the Indian army would not hound >>them, perhaps It comes from a strange and difficult to explain sense of >>loss at seeing the abandonment of their neighbours home. Perhaps It >>comes from the unease of knowing that no 'azadi' will ever be complete >>if it is won at the cost of the exodus of a minority. Sometimes it comes >>from the memory of a Pandit school master in a village school who >>suddenly disappeared on that night that you all mention. >> >>I always find it interesting to come to that point when someone says >>that his or her people have done something wrong. Often it means >>risking being called a traitor. I think in our times, traitors are >>saints. Imperfect, flawed, awkward saints, but the only kind that I can >>light a candle to. So all heretics are my friends. They make it possible >>for people in the camps of their enemies undertake necessary acts of >>counter-treason. When two traitors meet from opposite sides, there is >>the possibility of an encounter very different from the kind that >>normally gets scripted by the security forces of our beleagured >>republic. There is the possibility of an unpredictable conversation. >>This list, over the past few days, has been the setting for some >>unpredictable conversations, I do not wish them to end. >> >>I am a traitor, and many communists will call me one for saying the >>things that I have said in this post in response to your provocation. >>But then I think that sometimes, treason is the only honorable thing. >> >>However, I have yet to come across a Indian nationalist ideologue who >>believes Kashmir to be an indivisible part of India express any regret >>over the thousands of Kashmiri Muslims who were killed by Indian >>soldiers or who disappeared in the nineties in Kashmir, or about the >>thousands who were tortured or imprisoned, because all this happenned to >>keep Kashmir's within the map of India. For them, this violence was >>justified and necessary. Those deaths were necessary. >> >>You may meet many communists who will say that the killing of millions >>in the Soviet Union or in China was justified and necessary. I am not >>one of them, and there are many others like me. But I am still looking >>for the Indian nationalist who is willing to say sorry for Kashmir, for >>Manipur, for Nagaland. >> >>Perhaps you could be the one who makes a beginning. Try it out in your >>head and tell me what it feels like. Reject it if you want, but at least >>try it out. And tell me what it feels like for a moment to be a little >>larger than your own corner of the pain that engulfs us all. Please do >>share your feeling with this list. >> >>regards, >> >>Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>>With the passing of communism into history as an ideological alternative >> >>to >> >>>democracy it is time to do some accounting of its human costs. >>> >>>http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM >>>_________________________________________ >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>Critiques & Collaborations >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>subscribe in the subject header. >> >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>_________________________________________ >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>Critiques & Collaborations >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>subscribe in the subject header. >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 14:42:21 2007 From: sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 14:42:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A paradox In-Reply-To: <24F62582-3460-45D9-BB8A-F37BEF4230C5@sarai.net> References: <24F62582-3460-45D9-BB8A-F37BEF4230C5@sarai.net> Message-ID: <46DBCFF5.3010908@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > Now the sentries were in a dilemma. Isn't this a version of what is The Liar's Paradox ? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG28/1XQZpNTcrCzMRAkkTAKCOlp5Yww3REutKE/DIpymnp/pYZgCffdQ0 RWyhfpWMJx1zJdD316/S0AQ= =3MNf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon Sep 3 15:11:44 2007 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:41:44 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <13df7c120709022247h11a8b5b5q210b584ebc67b404@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120709022247h11a8b5b5q210b584ebc67b404@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Rummel's data could be read in another way. His account clearly shows that States have killed more people inside it own territories than outside, using all kind of ideologies and argumentation modalities. This could lead us to asking different set of questions. best jeebesh From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Sun Sep 2 00:04:22 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 20:34:22 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Translation, Guilt, Innocence and Two Cups of Coffee In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70708310823m6944cf67w5527467909d4f470@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70708310823m6944cf67w5527467909d4f470@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1527d7ad1ce8aae6d6e9f4f75a8cb07f@mail.xtdnet.nl> Dear Shuddha (and Pawan and all), I am quite disconcerted when you say: "I hope we can go back to the ordinary, everyday life of the list soon, a lot of interesting postings from Sarai Independent Fellows are standing neglected because of the tornadoes that have hit the list of late, but I am sure we will find ways of getting back to an even keel soon. I look forward to lots of different writing on lots of different issues from many correspondents." I understand that the idea of the reader-list is various conversations that can happen simultaneously/parallel/one at a time. Surely, this discussion starting with 'allegations' flying around regarding Sanjay Kak's movie 'being screened by cancelling the screening of RIK' has gotten a lot of people interested to the extent that those who were 'silent lurkers' are also coming up and speaking and I personally think this is very fruitful for the very purpose of this list (if I can say so without sounding presumptious). As for postings by Sarai I-fellows and by other correspondents, they can continue irrespective and those who want to pay attention to these other postings, will give their attention and responses despite the discussions on Kak, Jashn-e-Azaadi, Kashmir, freedom of speech, the nation, S.A.R. Geelani, etc. I am wondering what is this 'even keel' in the context of this list that you are talking about? Maybe something to think about ... or elaborate on. I believe that the value of this thread of conversations is that it is getting a lot of us to get up, think, retort, respond, find out, etc. about these questions of nation, identity, displacement, homelessness, etc. which we have either assumed or learnt from somewhere or reasoned out for ourselves and to not just do a one-time reasoning, but to keep introspecting on them. I hope we are not beginning to pose these exchanges as a 'us-versus-them' battle because as far as I am concerned, I think there is no us-versus-them but a continuum where I can tomorrow be as illogical, angry, hasty, retorting as our four dear friends if something is done to me or against me which is tragic, violent, etc. Having said the above, I want to go back to Pawan's email and especially to this statement he makes where he says: "Lastly , thank you for your lip service about Kashmiri Pandits. It is akin to the occasional Hurriyat statements about Kashmiri Pandits. How I wish If you could have spared 1% of energy to know the facts of miseries of kashmiri pandits and start helping them ....instead of......" Here is my question - what is this lament that Pawan is making? What is this misery, suffering and sorrow? Is this the lament of all Kashmiri Pandits or is Pawan trying to speak for them all when all of them do not have this lament? Is this misery, suffering, this memory of home, the tragedy of displacement so strong that we cannot seem to get out of it? To me it appears like an excuse to not confront something much more difficult which is talking to 'the enemy' or 'the other'. I am not interested in listening to Pawan, Aditya, Rashneek, Kshemendra or anyone else responding to me by saying, "how would you feel if your mother or sister were raped?" or "how would you feel if you were asked to get out of the place which was your home?" My family and I have experienced violence during the riots of 1993 in Bombay and I keep listening to different people saying how Muslims should get out of India because Pakistan is their 'home' and that is where they should reside. I feel very vulnerable when people ask me what religion I belong to. I feel displaced (symbolically) everyday by these experiences and everyday I have to ask myself this question 'where is home?' I don't want to listen to the same stories of rape and violence simply because this is making a rhetoric of the past. And this rhetoric is not good enough reason to say, 'Kak is giving voice to the Hurriyat and to Yasin Malik who are terrorists and who have displaced us from our homes and Kak is being a separationist.' (If only Sanjay had the power to separate/divide/disintegrate the nation!) That is no good reason because from what I can understand, both Kashmiri Muslims (if that's how you want to say it now) and Kashmiri Pandits have been and are upset with New Delhi for having acted the way it did. We have every right to disagree with Malik, with Kak, with the Hurriyat just as much as we have every right to disagree with RIK, Ashok Pandit, the idea of Panun Kashmir, etc. Disagreement does not mean that we are out to disintegrate the nation. It seems that someone expressing a different point of view is like saying 'oh my god! This is my enemy because s/he does not agree with me.' No good logic. One of the biggest lessons I have learnt in my life from the time I have spent in Kashmir and from all the relations I have developed there is that the easiest thing to do is to build a wall of memories, of lament, of non-communication, of prejudices, of biases, etc. We feel very comfortable by keeping this wall up and building it higher and higher. That way you avoid 'seeing'. The most difficult thing to do is to go out there and commmunicate with 'the other'/'the enemy' because when the pain lies in trying to utter the first word, in saying the first sentence ... Best, Zainab On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 20:53:11 +0530, "Pawan Durani" wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>"I hope we can go back to the ordinary, everyday life of the list soon, a lot of interesting postings from Sarai Independent Fellows are standing neglected because of the tornadoes that have hit the list of late, but I am sure we will find ways of getting back to an even keel soon. I look forward to lots of different writing on lots of different issues from many correspondents." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > Respected Suddha Ji , > > NamaskAr > > With your concluding para , i believe you have conveyed a message that you > no longer wish to debate or discuss this issue. I do understand that it is > painful to change a stand for which you have stood for a long time , even > if > the reality check gives a different view. Anyway , that is your choice and > we cant force a discussion. > > However I wish to request you to kindly save the words like "Tornadoes" > for > those who deserve it. If having a different view is being seen as a > "tornadoes" by you , i can understand how "liberal & democratic" you are. > > I may not be as intelligent as you think of yourself, but I wish to remind > you that I have been born in a Kashmiri family, never stayed out of > Kashmir > at length for 18 years of my life till my house was burnt and we were > chased > out in the middle of night along with lacs of others. In my whole family > everyone is a kashmiri and we speak kashmiri . So atleast I have better > knowledge of Kashmiri than you can teach me. Your teaching me what a > particular sentence means in Kashmiri is as good as me giving you lecture > about "Prathom Alo". > > I also do not wish to carry on the debate any further , as you chose to > ignore all arguments .About the screenings part , it is Sanjay & his team > and RIK & team who know the fact.The reason I spoke about Sanjays > "testimony" was to give you an idea of Sanjays reliability. Sampat Prakash > I > know since ages ,much better than any of you. > > Rest God knows where the truth lies. Of course you dont believe God as > well. > > You may carry on with your idea where you state "I hope we can go back to > the ordinary, everyday life of the list soon.............. but I am sure > we > will find ways of getting back to an even keel soon". That is what I > believe > a "Mutual Admiration Society " stands for ! > Lastly , thank you for you lip service about Kashmiri Pandits. It is akin to the occasional Hurriyat statements about Kashmiri Pandits. How I wish If you could have spared 1% of energy to know the facts of miseries of kashmiri pandits and start helping them ....instead of...... > > God Bless You All > > Pawan Durani > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Sun Sep 2 00:23:41 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 20:53:41 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?What=27s_pain_got_to_do_with_it=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12730804283e23500824eedbf3c66190@mail.xtdnet.nl> Dear Gargi, Thank you for this. Perhaps even thank you cannot convey to you how I immensely grateful I feel toward you for having said this. Zainab! On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 06:43:13 +0530, Gargi Sen wrote: > Hello everyone, > I am a self-confessed lurker on this list. Till date I have only read > postings and followed a few debates. But the recent spate of mails had a > stunning effect - to paraphrase Shuddha ­ and stunned even me out of the > zone of silence into speech. And as I spent most of the night in reading > the > incredible number of recent mails, I may as well stay up and write. And > despite the circumstances, I am happy to become visible, albeit virtually. > > This mail though is addressed to 5 young men called Aditya, Rashneek , > Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul. And my apologies to the rest of the list for > length of the mail. > Gargi > > Dear Aditya, Rashneek , Kshemendra , Pawan and Rahul, > You know you are probably going about it ­ it being the stopping of > Jashn-e-azadi - all wrong. You probably do know that the more you Œtalk¹ > about a film/ book/ art/ food anything, the more you spread an interest > about it. Any talk of Œbanning¹ send interests zooming sky high. And to > point to Œuncensored¹ you hit bulls eye. Really. The best course > probably > might have been to simply ignore it. Indifference probably kills faster > than > any kind of engagement. But you have done what you had to and now the > damage > is done. And the more you try and stop it, the more you will push up the > interest button. Its kind of inversely proportionate. Is that really what > you want? > > But I understand your pain. I understand where its coming from. I too come > from a so called refugee family. Both my grandfathers lost everything ­ > their land, their trees, their homestead, one even lost his entire life¹s > savings in 1947. Incidentally but not so coincidentally both came to > Calcutta - you see this was before my parents met or married ­ a city > quite > hostile to the refugees as also to their dialect and culture. My nuclear > family moved to Delhi roughly when I was born. I grew up with the > knowledge > that Œhome¹ was Œsome place else.¹ But where exactly no one could > tell. > Functionally it was Calcutta. But logically, it should have been either > Barishal or Jashore, where we couldn¹t go ­ don¹t get me wrong, visas > were > given, we just lacked the cash. I grew up in Delhi feeling quite alienated > from my classmates who had roots, deep root: they had villages they knew > and > visited, ancestral homes, common cultures. I had none, or they were > somewhere else. And any attempt to find roots was a lost cause because > where > or what could they go into? Bangladesh? It didn¹t exist when my > grandparents > exited. East Pakistan? That doesn¹t exist any longer. So my childhood > roots > could only go up in air. > > But coming back to the pain, I wonder who can I draw as enemy, who can I > blame? Who caused the pain? Because for certain my family, and families, > went through pain. Extreme pain. Loss rings deep. Even today wedding > invitations carry markers like ABC (name of the father of bride/ groom) of > DEF (place in Bangladesh) at present a resident of XYZ (somewhere in > India) > invite you to the wedding of.... Do you understand? 60 years after our > families left we, at least those who do the Œcorrect¹ things like > marriage, > still claim our lineage to a land which has ceased to be ours 60 years > ago. > So who¹s the enemy? Who truncated that umbilical cord between land and > culture? > > The problem was that that was too complex. I couldn¹t really think that > one > through. So I though let me see if locating an identifiable enemy is > beyond > my capabilities is there at least an errant cousin, a filmmaker who rides > on > pain to claim fame? You know I gave it some very serious thought indeed > and > I think Ghatak might just fit the bill. Ritwik i.e. Especially his Komal > Gandhar. Which is a less celebrated film than his more celebrated ones. > But > the storyline, the form and especially his protagonists and their ideology > is great for our common endeavour that I am gong to suggest in a minute. > But > have you seen the film? Do see it if you haven¹t. It uses a theatre group > to > shamelessly propagate an ideology that has been rubbished even on this > list. > > I suggest we call for a ban on this film. Imagine what mileage we¹ll get. > Or > do I mean the film will get? Whatever. We can claim that all independent > filmmakers are fundamentally fundamentalists and unable to connect to > pain. > > Apart from that you see I also have a vested interest. Komal Gandhar > happens > to be my personal favourite, probably because personal taste is not > dictated > by popular consent. And I am often a little puzzled as to how less it is > rated compared to Ghatak¹s other films. So see, if such a campaign can be > started, the film will for certain become extremely popular. Very popular > indeed. Many people who don¹t know about the film will come to know of > it. > It will get screened in different cities and halls ­ we are after all > celebrating THE 60th year ­ and this film does address the P word . > Academics might start to write about, even high-brow lists like > Sarai-readers list might comment on the film, and for all you know, even > Shuddha might write about it. I recall reading a great piece by him on the > motif of the bahurupiyas confronting two errant children in an abandoned > airfield in the film Subarnarekha. But I can¹t remember or at least > haven¹t > seen anything by him on Komal Gandhar. > > Over the last 6 months I watched all of you and learnt that that is > sure-fire strategy. I am impressed by your dedication and strategy. > Especially your strategy. And your dedication to continually evolve it. So > I > am suggesting this. Why make a hero out of Kak? He is such a > johny-come-lately. Why not strike at the roots of all such films? Komal > Gandhar probably is the precursor to, or the grandfather of, films like > Jashn-e-azadi. So hit the root. The branches are sure to fall off. > > Let me know your thoughts. > > Coming back to the narrative of my family and pain allow me to tell you a > little about my father ­ I¹ll leave the mother-motif for another > sleepless > night. My father, who is now dead, was once young. Probably at your age > Aditya he joined the Socialists. You see he didn¹t have the hind-sight of > history so he did what his heart and conscious dictated. He was quite > close > to Lohiya and JP and in his twenties became the president of the Western > Railwaymen¹s Union. But he was recalled from Bombay to Delhi by JP who > wanted him to work on some new initiative. Anyway, he did as told, also > married, and I make an appearance on the scene. In the late Œ60s, when I > am > 4 or 5 one of the tasks he carried out was to provide a safe meeting > place, > in his house, for Sheikh Abdullah and Mridula Sarabhai to meet and > confabulate. Do you know what they ­ not my father but the other two ­ > were > talking about? The RIK certainly does, no? Its recorded history after all. > On Kashmir after all. > > Recorded history does not always record the stories foot soldiers. My > father, by allowing a person under house arrest, to meet another who was > soon going to be put under house arrest, called on himself the ire of the > state. Or is it nation? Or nation-state? Whatever. But as a 4 or 5 year > old > I knew meaning of words like Œintelligence¹ Œshadowed¹ and the dreaded > word > CID. At least I think that was the dreaded word. My father continues on > his > chosen path. All as a socialist. No hind-sight you see. And I watched from > the side-lines of the side-line. When I was 12 I learn about MISA, learn > to > live with a Œmissing father¹ who¹s Œunderground,¹ watch countless > raids into > our homes; for some strange reasons totally beyond my comprehension all > those Œraids¹ were carried out by the IT department! > > But all that was as a child. With no real understanding. Only feelings. It > wasn¹t till much later that I learnt that that tall, bald headed man, > wearing a crisp, white Kurta-pajama, the one who towered over most men by > a > foot or so, the one who sat on our verandah talking endlessly to a woman > in > crisp white salwar kameez, the man also known as the Lion of Kashmir, had > led battles against various causes one of which was the choice of > accession > to the republic of India. Funnily, my classmate - or was he my brother¹s > classmate, whatever ­ his grandfather who was once the King of Kashmir > had > actually opted to go with Pakistan. > A Kashmiri Pundit, a maharaja to boot, wants to secede from India while a > Muslim, leading a tribal brigade, wants to remain. Now I think I¹ve lost > the > plot altogether. > > But coming back to my father, a refugee who makes democratic choice, in a > democratic country/ nation/ nation-state/ whatever, to go into politics, > albeit oppositional politics, is continuously hounded by the country/ > nation/ nation-state/ whatever for you know what? His political beliefs. > The > story doesn¹t end at Emergency. Then there was the Kudal Commission. JP > was > already dead. He, alone, battles the government/ country/ nation/ > nation-state/ whatever for a simple reason: a Œwrong¹ allegation, a > Œmistake.¹ For 6 years. Alone. > > I write about him because I read many of your mails tonight and he came > back. He¹s been dead almost 13 years now, but reading your mails I got > another perspective on the man, a mere foot soldier though. He paid the > price of choosing the wrong political set up at a time when democratic > systems and institutions were even less mature. No hind sight you see. But > that apart, in my personal recollection I don¹t remember any litany of > pain. > He laughed instead. He was an extremely funny and fun loving man. Deeply > irreligious he had immense faith. He couldn¹t believe in God so chose to > believe in men. Had he not suffered? Of course he had. Had not seen > trauma? > Of course he had. He was almost a youth at partition. And like every other > family, ours too has horrific stories. And he was a witness, not even > spared > by age. So, I am feeling a little puzzled tonight. Why didn¹t he > complain? > At least he could have called for a ban. On Komol Gandhar perhaps? Maybe > then he might have made it to recorded history as a punctuation mark? Or > at > the very least he should/ could have spent his life complaining, bitterly > about all those fame seekers, trouble makers, the salt rubbers. > > I wonder why didn¹t he do that? At least he could have hidden his obvious > love for life, remained a victim? Was it necessary to be so blatantly in > love with life and living? And tonight I begin to Œsee¹ that it was this > inexplicable love he had for life that made him choose unpopular causes. > Too, too many to even list, forget recount. But I am grateful to all five > of > you for helping me to Œsee¹ the obvious, for helping me to connect to my > father, now dead, in a completely new light. But you know, how sometimes > you > can miss the very obvious simply because its staring you in the face? So > thanks yaar. > > And there is one more thing. The Kudal Commission showed to me, and > hopefully to a few others too, that even the entire might of the mighty > state is often unable to make false charges stick. So what¹s the point, > yaar? > > Anyway, you see I read many of your mails tonight and I thought of pain. > Impossible to define scientifically. I mean is it at all possible to use > some sort of measure to see whose pain is deeper and hurts more? But > tonight > I thought it might not be a bad idea to try and make a measuring > instrument > like that. Then we could compare all of us who have experienced pain ­ my > father, I albeit from the side lines, all of you ­ whose pain is greater? > Or > should we leave that ­it - to the crux of the film Hiroshima Mon Amour? > > I am not sure any longer. Actually to be sure of anything is getting > increasingly difficult. I am sure you don¹t know what I mean. > > If you have read till here, thank you for your patience. > > I can¹t really ask God to bless you, but I do wish you lots and lots of > abundant energy for your cause, for your cause can only help my cause - > that > of showing and screening all films to everybody. > > Gargi Sen > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Sun Sep 2 00:52:08 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 21:22:08 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Freedom of Expression my foot! In-Reply-To: <440157.39064.qm@web53604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <440157.39064.qm@web53604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <727e0aceb5fad0485ed8169c3838fef9@mail.xtdnet.nl> I do not live in a war zone I live in a state of terror Terror which is perpetual which assumes various proportions. There is terror inside of me, Outside of me Terror about who is lurking, In those distant shadows Is it my enemy or my foe? Oh, it is the security guard! He is here for my security. He has a naked gun in his hand The gun is ignorant, but the guard is not. The strength, might, and power of the gun gives me courage to muster up courage. I am feeling safe. My breath is calm and smooth. So is my heartbeat. I am safe. Suddenly, the guard advances towards me His naked gun is too. He comes close enough, looks into my eyes, peers. His looks are piercing. He says, ‘Sorry pal, I have to shoot you down.’ ‘I have to shoot you so that you become (vulgar) news.’ ‘The headlines should shriek, ‘We gunned down an enemy spy.’’ ‘But I am a citizen of this country, not an enemy spy,’ I pleaded. ‘Why do you do this to me? What is my crime? What is my sin?’ ‘Nuffing! Nffing’s your crime, Nuffing’s your sin’ ‘You are simply going to be a martyr, A martyr of the Other Side And a source of security for Our Side You see buddy, there are many whom I have to protect, Many whom I have to make feel safe Many whom I have to assure that the world is a safe place to be in, to live in as long as I am there. So put your faith (and money) in me (and my guns) For as long as I am there, You will be there, Your progeny will be there, Safe, calm and soothed. And you, buddy, will help me comfort the souls of this world Souls, who are in un-rest and discomfort Because the Other is there, The enemy is there, And they (the perturbed and disturbed souls) need to be protected And made to feel secure. Your death shall bring them security. Your dead body shall unnerve their perturbed souls. Your death will be their joy.’ ‘But what about tomorrow,’ I asked, ‘Who will you gun tomorrow? How long will you continue to make them feel safe, Feel secure, feel soothed? Will they ever cease to be insecure?’ ‘No, not until I know,’ said he, ‘As long as there are weapons, As long as there are bombs, As long as there are walls (in people’s minds) As long as people don’t know (The unknown enemy is always greater than the known) As long as we don’t let them know, Fear will prevail (in their hearts and minds) The state of terror shall be And there shall be martyrs like you Whom we shall slay alive’ Saying this, he shot a bullet into my skull And the next day, I, an unknown citizen, became known. I became The Enemy. So now Rahul, I want to ask you a question - what is this nation that you talk about? What is this nation which cannot hear anything said against it? What is this nation that has the right to clamp down on me if I say something which is supposedly against it? Best, Zainab On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 05:40:32 -0700 (PDT), Rahul Asthana wrote: > Sadia:) > I am not asking you to ignore them.So when I am saying > something is against the essential nature of state,I > do not mean how the state exists in practice.I do not > mean all those things you listed because the > constitution specifically does not enable them.For eg. > The income equity as it exists is not the essential > nature of state.All your scenarios to me become straw > men. > Anyway, this is my last word on this. > Cheers. > Rahul > > > --- "S.Fatima" wrote: > >> >> No Rahul, the constitution and judiciary is >> certainly >> not against any citizen - I am not saying that the >> Dalit oppression exists because of the constitution. >> >> >> I am stressing on the practical aspect of judiciary/ >> state since that's what counts. Nobody can endanger >> the essential nature of state if it is only a >> theoretical entity. >> >> Secular democracy means nothing as long as >> corruption >> and prejudice exists. We cannot ignore the practical >> examples. >> >> >> >> --- Rahul Asthana wrote: >> >> > Dear Sadia, >> > I think we are using and understanding the phrase >> > "essential nature of state" differently,so we are >> > ending up talking through each other.In your >> > usage,essential nature of state is how it exists >> in >> > practice.So if India is a country where dalits are >> > oppressed,which I agree with incidentally, then >> > perhaps in your terms the oppression of the dalits >> > is >> > the essential nature of the state. >> > But my usage is constitutional\legal.I wont say >> that >> > oppresion of dalits is an "essential nature of >> > Indian >> > State",because the constitution does not enable >> the >> > oppression,quite the contrary in fact. >> > So for me,the essential nature of Indian state is >> a >> > "secular democracy".In a secular democracy >> inequity >> > of >> > income may exist,and other "what ifs" that you >> have >> > mentioned may exist.That does not make them the >> > essential nature of the state,because the >> > constitution >> > does not specifically enable them. >> > My argument is not on the lines of what is more >> > important or who is more patriotic;because that is >> > just sidestepping from the current topic. >> > >> > regards >> > Rahul >> > >> > --- "S.Fatima" wrote: >> > >> > > Dear Rahul >> > > Of course I am not in favour of somebody's >> freedom >> > > of >> > > expression which puts the national security at >> > risk. >> > > I >> > > would certainly not like an action which helps >> in >> > > sinking the boat which I am also riding. But the >> > > point >> > > is, who should decide what is a security risk? A >> > > statement which is a painful truth for someone >> > could >> > > be a security risk for others. >> > > >> > > To extend your analogy a little, if the oarsman >> of >> > > the >> > > boat decides that a few travelers are his enemy >> > and >> > > tries to push them into the water, there will be >> a >> > > clash where the victims may try to throw the >> > oarsman >> > > himself into water. Of course the other >> travelers >> > > who >> > > are not aware of the origin of the clash will >> > > declare >> > > the victimized group as their enemies and so on. >> > > Thus >> > > it becomes a conflict. I know it’s a childish >> > > analogy >> > > but the reality is much more complex. Each one >> of >> > us >> > > is living with our own versions of history, and >> > that >> > > decides our definition of nationhood and >> > patriotism. >> > > >> > > No Indian (or human) today will say that he/she >> is >> > > not >> > > victimized by somebody/something or the other. >> > > Everyone's (hi)story is important. It’s just >> that >> > > the >> > > state has the power to legitimately suppress >> > other's >> > > version of the history if they want to. And >> that's >> > > where my problem lies with the nationhood and >> the >> > > constitution. >> > > >> > > I fail to understand what you mean by the >> > "essential >> > > nature of the state" and why is it over and >> above >> > > everything? What if it hurts me instead of >> > > safeguarding me? What if this “nature of state” >> > > discriminates against a certain group of its >> > > citizens >> > > because of sheer sectarian prejudice or simply >> > > corruption? Ultimately the “nature of state” in >> > its >> > > practical form is nothing but a bunch of civil >> > > servants, MPs, judges, soldiers, cops - do you >> > think >> > > all of them are angels from heaven? (I am not >> > > denying >> > > thier sacrifices in running the country and >> saving >> > > us >> > > from all the dangers, and so on). But do they >> > follow >> > > the constitution as perfectly as required? And >> > > forget >> > > about national security and defense – have they >> > > provided clean water, sanitization, basic >> health, >> > > education, roads, housing, employment, and food >> to >> > > everyone? Is the “nature of state” above all >> these >> > > essential duties? Why shouldn’t someone become >> > > Naxalite given the current nature of state? >> > > >> > > It doesn't matter how clean and perfect our >> > > constitution is, or what our fathers of the >> Nation >> > > dreamt about. What matters is how is the state >> > > treating its people? (Of course its reverse is >> > also >> > > important). But I or anyone else who faces >> > injustice >> > > and partiality will have a shaky belief in the >> > state >> > > and nationhood. In any case, most of our middle >> > and >> > > lower-middle class today is so helpless, >> > frustrated, >> > > and tired that they don’t give a damn to >> > > nationalism. >> > > The only people who are happily patriotic are >> some >> > > nicely employed or filthy rich or the NRIs. >> Don’t >> > > you >> > > think? >> > > >> > > Fatima >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > --- Rahul Asthana wrote: >> > > >> > > > Dear Sadia, >> > > > Sorry for the belated reply.I guess I could >> not >> > > > explain myself clearly.Kshmendra has >> articulated >> > > it >> > > > better than me.Anyways,I will try once more. >> > > > To take a rough analogy;all of us are >> traveling >> > in >> > > a >> > > > boat.It does not matter really how we evolved >> > into >> > > > it.The boat should prohibit any activity which >> > may >> > > > sink it,isnt that logical? >> > > > Lets take the matter of Kashmir out of this >> for >> > a >> > > > sec.Right now,lets just focus on this:Whether >> it >> > > is >> > > > justified by a nation to ban any kind of >> freedom >> > === message truncated === > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Sun Sep 2 09:21:53 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 05:51:53 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Freedom of Expression my foot! In-Reply-To: <21120.59147.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <21120.59147.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59283ef380b00636f486be1aabeba821@mail.xtdnet.nl> Hi Rahul, I really do not know what this nation is and thereofore I am asking you what is this nation that you talk about? What is this nation that is above me or greater than me, which has the right to ban my freedom of expression (which it incidentally does under the guise of 'reasonable restrictions' and 'national security' if we read Article 19 (1)) if I 'say anything against it'? I don't know what this nation is. I don't know what this mighty force is and I refuse to let it determine my life. Best, Zainab On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 17:43:47 -0700 (PDT), Rahul Asthana wrote: > Zainab, > OK,I read that.Well written.Can you please do me a > favor and read my posts in this thread and tell me > what do you think I stand for? > Also,can you please do me one more favour and tell me > what do you mean by nation? > > This will help me in answering your question. > Best regards > Rahul > > > --- zainab wrote: > >> I do not live in a war zone >> I live in a state of terror >> Terror which is perpetual >> which assumes various proportions. >> There is terror inside of me, >> Outside of me >> Terror about who is lurking, >> In those distant shadows >> Is it my enemy or my foe? >> Oh, it is the security guard! >> He is here for my security. >> He has a naked gun in his hand >> The gun is ignorant, but the guard is not. >> The strength, might, and power of the gun gives me >> courage to muster up >> courage. >> I am feeling safe. >> My breath is calm and smooth. >> So is my heartbeat. >> I am safe. >> Suddenly, the guard advances towards me >> His naked gun is too. >> He comes close enough, >> looks into my eyes, >> peers. His looks are piercing. >> He says, ‘Sorry pal, I have to shoot you down.’ >> ‘I have to shoot you so that you become (vulgar) >> news.’ >> ‘The headlines should shriek, ‘We gunned down an >> enemy spy.’’ >> ‘But I am a citizen of this country, not an enemy >> spy,’ I pleaded. >> ‘Why do you do this to me? >> What is my crime? >> What is my sin?’ >> ‘Nuffing! Nffing’s your crime, >> Nuffing’s your sin’ >> ‘You are simply going to be a martyr, >> A martyr of the Other Side >> And a source of security for Our Side >> You see buddy, there are many >> whom I have to protect, >> Many whom I have to make feel safe >> Many whom I have to assure that the world is a safe >> place to be in, to live >> in >> as long as I am there. >> So put your faith (and money) in me (and my guns) >> For as long as I am there, >> You will be there, >> Your progeny will be there, >> Safe, calm and soothed. >> And you, buddy, will help me comfort the souls of >> this world >> Souls, who are in un-rest and discomfort >> Because the Other is there, >> The enemy is there, >> And they (the perturbed and disturbed souls) need to >> be protected >> And made to feel secure. >> Your death shall bring them security. >> Your dead body shall unnerve their perturbed souls. >> Your death will be their joy.’ >> ‘But what about tomorrow,’ I asked, >> ‘Who will you gun tomorrow? >> How long will you continue to make them feel safe, >> Feel secure, feel soothed? >> Will they ever cease to be insecure?’ >> ‘No, not until I know,’ said he, >> ‘As long as there are weapons, >> As long as there are bombs, >> As long as there are walls (in people’s minds) >> As long as people don’t know >> (The unknown enemy is always greater than the known) >> As long as we don’t let them know, >> Fear will prevail (in their hearts and minds) >> The state of terror shall be >> And there shall be martyrs like you >> Whom we shall slay alive’ >> Saying this, he shot a bullet into my skull >> And the next day, I, an unknown citizen, became >> known. >> I became The Enemy. >> >> So now Rahul, I want to ask you a question - what is >> this nation that you >> talk about? What is this nation which cannot hear >> anything said against it? >> What is this nation that has the right to clamp down >> on me if I say >> something which is supposedly against it? >> >> Best, >> >> Zainab >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 05:40:32 -0700 (PDT), Rahul >> Asthana >> wrote: >> > Sadia:) >> > I am not asking you to ignore them.So when I am >> saying >> > something is against the essential nature of >> state,I >> > do not mean how the state exists in practice.I do >> not >> > mean all those things you listed because the >> > constitution specifically does not enable them.For >> eg. >> > The income equity as it exists is not the >> essential >> > nature of state.All your scenarios to me become >> straw >> > men. >> > Anyway, this is my last word on this. >> > Cheers. >> > Rahul >> > >> > >> > --- "S.Fatima" wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> No Rahul, the constitution and judiciary is >> >> certainly >> >> not against any citizen - I am not saying that >> the >> >> Dalit oppression exists because of the >> constitution. >> >> >> >> >> >> I am stressing on the practical aspect of >> judiciary/ >> >> state since that's what counts. Nobody can >> endanger >> >> the essential nature of state if it is only a >> >> theoretical entity. >> >> >> >> Secular democracy means nothing as long as >> >> corruption >> >> and prejudice exists. We cannot ignore the >> practical >> >> examples. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- Rahul Asthana wrote: >> >> >> >> > Dear Sadia, >> >> > I think we are using and understanding the >> phrase >> >> > "essential nature of state" differently,so we >> are >> >> > ending up talking through each other.In your >> >> > usage,essential nature of state is how it >> exists >> >> in >> >> > practice.So if India is a country where dalits >> are >> >> > oppressed,which I agree with incidentally, then >> >> > perhaps in your terms the oppression of the >> dalits >> >> > is >> >> > the essential nature of the state. >> >> > But my usage is constitutional\legal.I wont say >> >> that >> >> > oppresion of dalits is an "essential nature of >> >> > Indian >> >> > State",because the constitution does not enable >> >> the >> >> > oppression,quite the contrary in fact. >> >> > So for me,the essential nature of Indian state >> is >> >> a >> >> > "secular democracy".In a secular democracy >> >> inequity >> >> > of >> >> > income may exist,and other "what ifs" that you >> >> have >> >> > mentioned may exist.That does not make them the >> >> > essential nature of the state,because the >> >> > constitution >> >> > does not specifically enable them. >> >> > My argument is not on the lines of what is more >> >> > important or who is more patriotic;because that >> is >> >> > just sidestepping from the current topic. >> >> > >> >> > regards >> >> > Rahul >> >> > >> >> > --- "S.Fatima" >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > Dear Rahul >> >> > > Of course I am not in favour of somebody's >> >> freedom >> > === message truncated === > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Sun Sep 2 14:42:54 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 11:12:54 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Freedom of Expression my foot! In-Reply-To: <813282.92465.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <813282.92465.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Rahul, I have read your posts and exchanges with keen interest and I was not sure if I was reading what you were saying right, but this email clarifies what you have been trying to say. So let's get down to questioning some of the concepts and ideas that you have been mentioning in the posts you have made: a). nation - ??? b). democracy - ??? c). secularism - ??? d). essential nature of the state - ??? The reason I have put question marks against each one of these is because it seems that we have certain images at work when we say nation, secularism, democracy and state. We evoke the constitution to try to concretize these abstract ideas. In everyday life, each of these concepts and ideas take on different meanings. Your example of people in Iran/Iraq/Muslim countries wanting to attain secularism and democracy can ony do so through violent revolutions is not a strong one because what do democracy and secularism mean in the context of these countries? Surely, they cannot mean the same thing as they mean in India. Surely, Hindu or Muslim or Christian is not one composite identity and that even though an individual may be born in the religion of Islam, his being born in India, in South India, in Bangalore, in a slum in Bangalore and the historical conditions of that slum make him very different from a Muslim living in Fraser Town in Bangalore. Therefore, what secularism and democracy mean to him will be completely different from what they mean to the rich Muslim in Fraser Town. To give a more concrete example, an interesting research on slums and poverty in Bangalore points out how Muslims in Azadnagar slum in Bangalore identify with the Dalits owing to historical consciousness and detest the rich Kanpuri Muslims in the same slum saying, "those Kanpuri Muslims do not even allow us into their homes because they think we will learn their trade if we enter their homes'. My father is best friends with Gujaratis and his immense communal hatred is towards Bohra Muslims, Punjabi Muslims of Pakistan, Bengali Muslims of Bangladesh and he views Kashmiri Muslims with scepticism. You have also been mentioning in your posts about civil wars, violent change, etc. which threatens the 'essential nature' of the 'state'. Can change not happen peacefully? What about South Africa? In India itself, haven't we seen the creation of Jharkhand and Chattisgarh without violence (and without threatening the essential nature of the state whatever that means)? Have we also not seen the worst of violence in Gujarat in 2002 and yet not a single word about separation and cessation? In my earlier post, I had asked this question of what is the fear about disintegration of the nation (whatever that nation means and wherever that nation is)? Can the nation be disintegrated with a click of the finger? This fear of disintegration appears to be so strong that the nation and the people sanction censorship and a variety of violences and injustices in the name of nation security, territorial integrity and sovereignty. I have every right to disagree and express an opinion against the nation if the nation is violent, is threatening to curb my freedom because what nation is free if people living within those territorial boundaries are not free to express a different opinion. What is this intense fear we have against someone expressing an opinion different from ours? What makes them 'them' and us 'us'? Therefore if you even think that it is legitimate for the nation to clamp down our freedom of expression if we say something against the nation then that thought is a highly problematic idea for me. Those who believe in this should then talk only about themselves and not attempt to speak on behalf of others. Not for me for sure! Best, Zainab On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 21:21:48 -0700 (PDT), Rahul Asthana wrote: > Hi Zainab, > I noticed you did not answer my first question.So I > assume you did not go through my posts and\or you do > not know what I stand for.You just know that I am > talking about restricting freedom of speech and it is > connected with nation in some way.This thought is > probably so traumatic to you that you wrote that > earlier post in deep anguish and you refuse to see the > nuance in my stand;nor do you have a concept of nation > of your own. > I do not have anything new to say;not that I am > unwilling to discuss that or repeat it further.But > what you are asking me is nothing but a straw man.So > yeah,my view is that freedom of expression for > anything that cannot be achieved by a constitutional > process as the constitution is defined today should be > restricted.Or in other words,anything which is against > what is defined as the "essential nature of the > constitution" or is defined as the "essential nature > of the state" should be restricted. > So anything against secularism,democracy etc should be > restricted.Anything which seeks to redefine as our > state exists now AS A LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL ENTITY > should be restricted. > If its still not clear,In this forum and at other > places I have criticized AFSPA repeatedly.AFSPA is not > the essential nature of the state;it can be repealed > by a constitutional process. > What else?Did I miss anything? > Let me know. > Oh yes and if the essential nature of state is not > clear as I mean it,do go through this link.. > http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20070115/edit.htm#4 > Regards > Rahul > > > --- zainab wrote: > >> Hi Rahul, >> >> I really do not know what this nation is and >> thereofore I am asking you >> what is this nation that you talk about? What is >> this nation that is above >> me or greater than me, which has the right to ban my >> freedom of expression >> (which it incidentally does under the guise of >> 'reasonable restrictions' >> and 'national security' if we read Article 19 (1)) >> if I 'say anything >> against it'? I don't know what this nation is. I >> don't know what this >> mighty force is and I refuse to let it determine my >> life. >> >> Best, >> >> Zainab >> >> >> On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 17:43:47 -0700 (PDT), Rahul >> Asthana >> wrote: >> > Zainab, >> > OK,I read that.Well written.Can you please do me a >> > favor and read my posts in this thread and tell me >> > what do you think I stand for? >> > Also,can you please do me one more favour and tell >> me >> > what do you mean by nation? >> > >> > This will help me in answering your question. >> > Best regards >> > Rahul >> > >> > >> > --- zainab wrote: >> > >> >> I do not live in a war zone >> >> I live in a state of terror >> >> Terror which is perpetual >> >> which assumes various proportions. >> >> There is terror inside of me, >> >> Outside of me >> >> Terror about who is lurking, >> >> In those distant shadows >> >> Is it my enemy or my foe? >> >> Oh, it is the security guard! >> >> He is here for my security. >> >> He has a naked gun in his hand >> >> The gun is ignorant, but the guard is not. >> >> The strength, might, and power of the gun gives >> me >> >> courage to muster up >> >> courage. >> >> I am feeling safe. >> >> My breath is calm and smooth. >> >> So is my heartbeat. >> >> I am safe. >> >> Suddenly, the guard advances towards me >> >> His naked gun is too. >> >> He comes close enough, >> >> looks into my eyes, >> >> peers. His looks are piercing. >> >> He says, ‘Sorry pal, I have to shoot you >> down.’ >> >> ‘I have to shoot you so that you become >> (vulgar) >> >> news.’ >> >> ‘The headlines should shriek, ‘We >> gunned down an >> >> enemy spy.’’ >> >> ‘But I am a citizen of this country, not an >> enemy >> >> spy,’ I pleaded. >> >> ‘Why do you do this to me? >> >> What is my crime? >> >> What is my sin?’ >> >> ‘Nuffing! Nffing’s your crime, >> >> Nuffing’s your sin’ >> >> ‘You are simply going to be a martyr, >> >> A martyr of the Other Side >> >> And a source of security for Our Side >> >> You see buddy, there are many >> >> whom I have to protect, >> >> Many whom I have to make feel safe >> >> Many whom I have to assure that the world is a >> safe >> >> place to be in, to live >> >> in >> >> as long as I am there. >> >> So put your faith (and money) in me (and my guns) >> >> For as long as I am there, >> >> You will be there, >> >> Your progeny will be there, >> >> Safe, calm and soothed. >> >> And you, buddy, will help me comfort the souls of >> >> this world >> >> Souls, who are in un-rest and discomfort >> >> Because the Other is there, >> >> The enemy is there, >> >> And they (the perturbed and disturbed souls) need >> to >> >> be protected >> >> And made to feel secure. >> >> Your death shall bring them security. >> >> Your dead body shall unnerve their perturbed >> souls. >> >> Your death will be their joy.’ >> >> ‘But what about tomorrow,’ I asked, >> >> ‘Who will you gun tomorrow? >> >> How long will you continue to make them feel >> safe, >> >> Feel secure, feel soothed? >> >> Will they ever cease to be insecure?’ >> >> ‘No, not until I know,’ said he, >> >> ‘As long as there are weapons, >> >> As long as there are bombs, >> >> As long as there are walls (in people’s >> minds) >> >> As long as people don’t know >> >> (The unknown enemy is always greater than the >> known) >> >> As long as we don’t let them know, >> >> Fear will prevail (in their hearts and minds) >> >> The state of terror shall be >> >> And there shall be martyrs like you >> >> Whom we shall slay alive’ >> >> Saying this, he shot a bullet into my skull >> >> And the next day, I, an unknown citizen, became >> >> known. >> >> I became The Enemy. >> >> >> >> So now Rahul, I want to ask you a question - what >> is >> >> this nation that you >> >> talk about? What is this nation which cannot hear >> >> anything said against it? >> >> What is this nation that has the right to clamp >> down >> >> on me if I say >> >> something which is supposedly against it? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Zainab >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 05:40:32 -0700 (PDT), Rahul >> >> Asthana >> >> wrote: >> >> > Sadia:) >> >> > I am not asking you to ignore them.So when I am >> >> saying >> >> > something is against the essential nature of >> >> state,I >> >> > do not mean how the state exists in practice.I >> do >> >> not >> >> > mean all those things you listed because the >> >> > constitution specifically does not enable >> them.For >> >> eg. >> >> > The income equity as it exists is not the >> >> essential >> >> > nature of state.All your scenarios to me become >> >> straw >> >> > men. >> >> > Anyway, this is my last word on this. >> >> > Cheers. >> >> > Rahul >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- "S.Fatima" >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> No Rahul, the constitution and judiciary is >> >> >> certainly >> >> >> not against any citizen - I am not saying that >> >> the >> >> >> Dalit oppression exists because of the >> >> constitution. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am stressing on the practical aspect of >> >> judiciary/ >> >> >> state since that's what counts. Nobody can >> >> endanger >> >> >> the essential nature of state if it is only a >> >> >> theoretical entity. >> >> >> >> >> >> Secular democracy means nothing as long as >> >> >> corruption >> >> >> and prejudice exists. We cannot ignore the >> > === message truncated === > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! > http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Mon Sep 3 10:55:15 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 07:25:15 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] National Security In-Reply-To: <13df7c120709022145l535a06e1n1e4143838991bc75@mail.gmail.com> References: <13df7c120709022145l535a06e1n1e4143838991bc75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6750c797633fa6c49213a9e7f7a7f691@mail.xtdnet.nl> Dear old boys A.R.K.P. (as you are now fondly referred to), I must admit that this entertainment is now becoming very boring and predictable, like Ekta Kapoor's 'K' serials which have no marrative or story but just keep dragging. So I am sorry to say that I now need to switch channels. In one of my earlier emails, I had expressed my sense of upset with some parts of Shuddha's response to Pawan because I thought this was becoming an 'us-versus-them' battle, but now I realize that there is no sincere engagement on your part. All that you can offer is the rhetoric of your pain and memories without any consistency in argument and logic. This is inevitably becoming an us-versus-them argument whether Shuddha or I or anyone else deems it or not. As for superiority of the rest of us and inferiority of the four of you, I am pompous enough to say that yes, some of us are indeed superior in this thread of conversation because we have been trying to see the logic of your argument and engage with it rather than retort, retort and more retort. So here's a big thank you to four of you old boys for giving me the opportunity to clarify and reason our my logics and concepts and thanks a ton for all the entertainment that you have been providing on this list all along. But now it's time to swtich channels. I guess your T.R.P. ratings will soon see a dive down! Best, Zainab On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:15:52 +0530, "rashneek kher" wrote: > Zainab, > > Sorry to disturb but Kshemendra is only 50. > Old adage suits all fine > > Look before you leap,and think before you speak(so it would been better if > would have known a lil before calling him a boy) > Since apart from 4 of us rest all are superior human beings,I bow to thou > knowledge. > > Regards > > Rashneek > > > On 8/30/07, zainab wrote: >> >> Dear Pawan, Kshmendra, Aditya and Rashneek, >> >> I am a Ph.D. student based in Bangalore. I do not have TV at my home. > Last >> few days, I have been reading the reader-list with much more vigor than > I >> have done in the last 5 years since I first subscribed to this list. >> >> Boys, I want to thank all of you sincerely for adding so much >> entertainment >> to my otherwise dull Ph.D., intellectual life. For all those who say > that >> you are bores or should be ignored, I feel sorry for them and they need > to >> be ignored. I certainly cannot afford to ignore all of you. >> >> God bless all of you and keep the good work coming/going! >> >> In anticipation, >> >> Zainab >> >> >> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 05:38:33 -0700 (PDT), Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >> > Dear Sanjay >> > >> > I am sure that your tongue-in-cheek cheek style has given you >> > satisfaction. Spiced with sarcasm which is a great device to use. (I >> will >> > myself be employing it in analysing the Shaina Anand transcript of > your >> > conversation) >> > >> > "Jashn-e-Azadi" is not a title SK invented. It might surprise you > but >> it >> > has been used in the past a whole lot of times. Your sarcasm >> > notwithstanding, you know that. It's been used to celebrate India's >> > Independence. Not like Sanjay Kak's usage to support those who want to >> > excise India, carve it up, destroy it. Or so it turned out to be. >> > >> > Am I overdramatising it? Sanjay you need to objectively take stock > of >> > the support your film has received. Map out the profiles of those > people >> > and evaluate what some of them stand for. SK you have provided them > with >> > ammunition, they celebrate your film. You are a honest hero in their >> eyes. >> > A supporter for break-up of India. >> > >> > Do you think they care that for you it was a journey of a particular >> > kind and that you would never claim that your film represents the >> totality >> > and all dimensions of the Kashmir issue? They will and have used you > to >> > suit their narrow purposes. You Sanjay Kak are "complicit" as you >> yourself >> > admitted elsewhere. >> > >> > Those "Azadi" or "Hurriyat" personalities are not the only ones, but >> > also those who I call the "la la landers", ostensibly loyal Indias but >> for >> > whom it is fashionable to attack India or support those who attack >> India, >> > whether by word or action or through a Sanjay Kak film. >> > >> > Sanjay, look around, in fact look at the communication in SARAI. For >> the >> > moment forget those who have been attacking you, and pay attention to >> those >> > who have spoken in support of you. Evaluate their rationality and >> arguments >> > or plain dismissiveness/ridicule of reasoned argument. You will see > some >> > worms coming out of the woodwork waving the flag of "Jashn-e-Azadi". > As >> an >> > example look at the recent postings of M Yousuf. >> > >> > SK your "translator" role is a sadder aspect of you. It brings into >> > question your personal morality and integrity. >> > >> > You did not go to Kashmir till 2003 and yet maintained enough >> > proficiency in Kashmiri to act as a "translator" seems a bit >> incredulous. >> > If you do not have the language skills in Kashmiri required of a >> > "translator" (especially for critical testimony in a Legal case) then >> you >> > are downright dishonest. It would impinge on credibility of your >> > character. A few hours of conversation with you in Kashmiri would make >> it >> > clear either way. >> > >> > SK, you come out worse if you do have enough competence in Kashmiri > to >> > act as a "translator". >> > >> > A translation of "Ye kyah Korvu?" can be only be "What is this you >> > people have done" or singular in a respectful tone "What is this that >> you >> > have done". There is no other translation possible. Need I add more >> about >> > how SK reportedly translated it and the possible implications both on >> the >> > testimony and SK's honesty and motives? >> > >> > That your "translation" was thrown out is hardly the issue, nor that >> > Geelani received the "death sentence". >> > >> > Incidentally, I personally am totally and vehemently against the >> "death >> > sentence" in it's cold pronouncement or execution by any Institution > for >> > whatever reason or crime. >> > >> > Sanjay, here is what I propose if you are interested. Get in touch >> with >> > these KPs who have been hounding you. Offer them a screening of your >> > "Jash-e-Azadi". Offer to discuss your role as a film-maker. Listen to >> what >> > they have to say. Listen to their ventings. >> > >> > You might be moved enough to make another film with an alternate >> > perspective. It might be another journey for you. One where you will > not >> > be depending on some people making available "found footage" >> > >> > It requires both moral and artistic courage. >> > >> > >> > Kshmendra Kaul >> > >> > >> > >> > Sanjay Kak wrote: >> > > >> >> Since the Sarai Reader list is fast emerging as the nerve centre for >> > keeping track of National (and Anti-National) interest, I thought it > my >> > duty >> > to make some humble offerings: >> > >> > On August 15, 2007 Indian Independence Day (what some linguistically >> > misguided souls refer to as *Jashn-e-Azadi) *the Habitat centre in > Delhi >> > was >> > once again the venue of something possibly troubling. A musical >> programme >> > called â€" yes, believe it or not â€" *Jashn-e-Azadi* was held >> > there. While they >> > said it was just some patriotic songs and ghazals and so on, this > could >> be >> > subterfuge. After all there is a film with a similar title doing the >> > rounds which may be up to some mischief; and then there is this >> separatist >> > leader involved in something called *Safar-e-Azadi.* As a good citizen >> I'm >> > just sharing this information which others may want to act upon. >> > >> > I was also wondering: could my role in translating the Police phone > tap >> on >> > the Delhi University lecturer SAR Geelani in the Parliament Attack > case >> > also >> > be considered by the Sarai list a little differently? Though my >> > translation >> > from Kashmiri into English was summarily thrown out by the Trial Court >> on >> > the grounds that I was an interested party (as a member of the All > India >> > Defence Committee for SAR Geelani), I mean, that court *did* pass a >> death >> > sentence on Shree Geelani, did it not? Could my lack of success as a >> > translator not be seen as a mark of my Patriotism? Just a thought, >> however >> > ghoulish... >> > >> > With thanks in anticipation >> > >> > Sanjay Kak >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > >> > >> > --------------------------------- >> > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > Yahoo! >> > FareChase. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > > From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 14:50:03 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:50:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120709022247h11a8b5b5q210b584ebc67b404@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120709030220p36947eaak882321c78dc0b1c1@mail.gmail.com> And even if one human life is lost,what worth is any cause then.The actors can be varied..state or non-state. Violence used by anyone for justifying any ends no matter how correct is simply a way of showing that there isnt enough in the cause. Regards Rashneek On 9/3/07, Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > > Rummel's data could be read in another way. > > His account clearly shows that States have killed more people inside > it own territories than outside, using all kind of ideologies and > argumentation modalities. > > This could lead us to asking different set of questions. > > best > jeebesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From tarunbhartiya at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 15:06:00 2007 From: tarunbhartiya at gmail.com (Tarun Bhartiya) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 15:06:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rashneek's Shuddha Problem & Mine Message-ID: I quote, misquote and rest the lies and lies of ARKP >>Dear Shuddha, [Tarun says : Dear Rashneek Dwij Kher ] >>Please please please...I beg of you for not writing about what you dont know. [Tarun says: As in Yasin Malik being a special invitee at the habitat screening of JeA(how did you know?), As in JeA team getting the screening in Kamla Nehru cancelled (how did you know), As in film being funded by separatists/jehadis/mogambo (how did you know)] >>I do not support the idea of panun Kashmir.So better know things before you write your "great literary pieces" [Tarun says : So better know things before you write your"great mystical pieces" or better still provide evidence, attributions for whatever you allege] If you wish to win an argument,I can simply say you win if that makes you happy,but please dont write stuff you know paltry little about or are simply fed info. [Tarun says: You know what you know as in a Rumian sense, you don't need feeding into-you can invent whatever you want to, even a win] By the way what are the total number or man/woman hours you have spent in Kashmir or on Kashmir. [Tarun says: Nil- there is no embassy of Kashmir I could find in Shillong capital of a nation called Hynniewtrep which borders a great nation called Aryavarta to issue me with a visa] Regards [Tarun says : Re-guard] Rashneek [Tarun says - Tarun Kujat Bhartiya once also known as Tarun Bhartiya] From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 15:11:59 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 15:11:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rashneek's Shuddha Problem & Mine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13df7c120709030241u5a95e5c6p4bcc1823d342d4aa@mail.gmail.com> Classical case of "begani shadi main abdullah dewani"... As far as I remember you are Tarun..right...not Shuddha.(or do I have to know this...provide empirical evidence based on testimony) Rashneek On 9/3/07, Tarun Bhartiya wrote: > > I quote, misquote and rest the lies and lies of ARKP > > >>Dear Shuddha, [Tarun says : Dear Rashneek Dwij Kher ] > > >>Please please please...I beg of you for not writing about what you dont > know. > [Tarun says: As in Yasin Malik being a special invitee at the habitat > screening of JeA(how did you know?), > As in JeA team getting the screening in Kamla Nehru cancelled (how did > you know), As in film being > funded by separatists/jehadis/mogambo (how did you know)] > > >>I do not support the idea of panun Kashmir.So better know things before > you > write your "great literary pieces" > [Tarun says : So better know things before you write your"great mystical > pieces" or better still provide evidence, attributions for whatever you > allege] > > If you wish to win an argument,I can simply say you win if that makes you > happy,but please dont write stuff you know paltry little about or are > simply > fed info. > [Tarun says: > You know what you know as in a Rumian sense, you don't need feeding > into-you can invent whatever you want to, > even a win] > By the way what are the total number or man/woman hours you have spent in > Kashmir or on Kashmir. > [Tarun says: Nil- there is no embassy of Kashmir I could find in > Shillong capital of a nation called Hynniewtrep which borders a great > nation called Aryavarta > to issue me with a visa] > > Regards > [Tarun says : Re-guard] > > Rashneek > [Tarun says - Tarun Kujat Bhartiya once also known as Tarun Bhartiya] > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 15:49:05 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 03:19:05 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz In-Reply-To: <13df7c120709022049n1c9e52b2k75a0c017f1f66ec8@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0709010230k4568a66do582ae68a35e9c21a@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120709022049n1c9e52b2k75a0c017f1f66ec8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709030319n6d68ccf0s92630c1fa9605595@mail.gmail.com> briefly i am no scholar of iqbal, but ... iqbal takes rumi as his mentor and he appears again and again rumi says when love is apathetic one is like a bird without feathers/wings (par) - alas, afsos. choon na baa shud, ishq raa parwaa e oo oo cho murgh e maand e be par, waae oo otoh my wings/feathers (par) and hair (baal) and are the lasso? (kamand) of the lover (aashiq) and the pull takes me to the (koocha) street of the beloved. par o baal e maa, kamand e ishq oost moo kushanish mee kashad taa koo e dost imho then, "par nahee" is no feathers, no wings - does not mean 'but', with which the construction becomes odd too. (parwaz) flight of words/things (baat) only makes dramatic sense without wings and feathers (love apathetic) in its influence (asar) in coming from from the heart (dil). best On 9/2/07, rashneek kher wrote: > Dear Yasir, > > Could you help me this one please. > > This is the first "misra" of Jawab-e-Shiqwa... > > I am sure you have read it,it reads > > Jo dil se nikalte hai baat asar rakhte hain > Par nahee,taqat-e-parwaaz magar rakhte hain > > Does par here mean..wings or but > > Different scholars have given me different interpretations,could you be kind > with yours. > > Thanks and Regards From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 15:53:20 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 15:53:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0709030319n6d68ccf0s92630c1fa9605595@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0709010230k4568a66do582ae68a35e9c21a@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120709022049n1c9e52b2k75a0c017f1f66ec8@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0709030319n6d68ccf0s92630c1fa9605595@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120709030323m59913d83n1ef1754cb1c5ffdc@mail.gmail.com> Thanks a lot Yasir, for the context as well as the perspective... Regards Rashneek On 9/3/07, yasir ~ wrote: > > briefly > > i am no scholar of iqbal, but ... > > iqbal takes rumi as his mentor and he appears again and again > > rumi says > when love is apathetic one is like a bird without feathers/wings (par) > - alas, afsos. > choon na baa shud, ishq raa parwaa e oo > oo cho murgh e maand e be par, waae oo > > > otoh my wings/feathers (par) and hair (baal) and are the lasso? > (kamand) of the lover (aashiq) and the pull takes me to the (koocha) > street of the beloved. > par o baal e maa, kamand e ishq oost > moo kushanish mee kashad taa koo e dost > > imho then, "par nahee" is no feathers, no wings - does not mean 'but', > with which the construction becomes odd too. (parwaz) flight of > words/things (baat) only makes dramatic sense without wings and > feathers (love apathetic) in its influence (asar) in coming from from > the heart (dil). > > best > > > > > On 9/2/07, rashneek kher wrote: > > Dear Yasir, > > > > Could you help me this one please. > > > > This is the first "misra" of Jawab-e-Shiqwa... > > > > I am sure you have read it,it reads > > > > Jo dil se nikalte hai baat asar rakhte hain > > Par nahee,taqat-e-parwaaz magar rakhte hain > > > > Does par here mean..wings or but > > > > Different scholars have given me different interpretations,could you be > kind > > with yours. > > > > Thanks and Regards > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 15:54:02 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 15:54:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <46DBCCC5.9050606@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> <46DBCCC5.9050606@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709030324r6a468e0bt23cab18bdc068365@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sen , I belong to a community which has no history of violence. I belong to a community which has never even picked up a stone to throw at somebody, leave aside knives and guns. As a Kashmiri Hindu and as a responsible Indian , i do grieve at any innocent life which is lost, whether it is in Kashmir , Darfur or Afghanistan.And this is not a ststement I am giving you , this i told in an interview to BBC & CNN -IBN even when we were protesting against Yasin Malik when he sat with the families of missing people in Delhi. To a father, when his child dies, the future dies; to a child, when his parents die, the past dies ; to a kashmiri when any innocent dies ; the peace dies. IRegards Pawan Durani From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:08:19 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 16:08:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709030324r6a468e0bt23cab18bdc068365@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> <46DBCCC5.9050606@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709030324r6a468e0bt23cab18bdc068365@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709030338t96f558l22e0bf53a311de8d@mail.gmail.com> Shuddha , Since I have answered you , I wish you too have an answer for these two questions of mine 1. Do you condemn Yasin malik and his likes like Bitta karate for their killings of Kashmiri pandit and Indian armed personels and do you want him to be bought to justice ? 2. Do you condemn the killings of minorties in Kashmir ? In your own words "These are very simple question, and it has two very simple answers,either yes, or no. The maybe option does not exist,." Waiting for a simple answer.......Hope you do what you preach. Lastly , a bit of advise . Do not call Kashmir as "Occupied Kashmir" . Pawan Durani On 9/3/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Sen , > > I belong to a community which has no history of violence. I belong to a > community which has never even picked up a stone to throw at somebody, leave > aside knives and guns. > > As a Kashmiri Hindu and as a responsible Indian , i do grieve at any > innocent life which is lost, whether it is in Kashmir , Darfur or > Afghanistan.And this is not a ststement I am giving you , this i told in > an interview to BBC & CNN -IBN even when we were protesting against Yasin > Malik when he sat with the families of missing people in Delhi. > > To a father, when his child dies, the future dies; to a child, when his > parents die, the past dies ; to a kashmiri when any innocent dies ; the > peace dies. > > IRegards > > Pawan Durani > > > > > From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 3 17:12:20 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 17:12:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <13df7c120709022247h11a8b5b5q210b584ebc67b404@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120709022247h11a8b5b5q210b584ebc67b404@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DBF31C.2080705@sarai.net> Dear Rashneek, I have had no no desire to enter into an exhibition wrestling match about who knows more about the history of ancient and medieval Kashmir with you. I find the 'my scholarship is better than yours' variety of exchange tiresome, and not because I am not confident about my scholarship. I have resisted doing this till now, out of some sympathy for your commitment to your cause, not because I agree with it. But even my patience has limits. Let me just say that I am more than familiar with the sources you mention, and with several of the sources of the history of ancient and medieval Kashmir, not only because I am interested in the history of Kashmi (which I am) but also because there are remarkable parallels with the history of ancient and medieval Bengal. Both outposts, at either northern end of South Asia, were primarily Buddhist, used a variant of the Sarada script, and in both places the Buddhist cultural and social substratum was overwhelmed by the early medieval brahminical revival, both were spearheads of tantric cults (Buddhist, Shaivite and Shakta) and both were ruled for long years by muslim kings, and became overwhelmingly muslim majority areas, not out of force but due to the way in which sufi orders (often quite syncretic in their practices) addressed ordinary and lower caste population, in both areas - a small Hindu upper caste elite that was patronized by Muslim kings, and in many ways protected by a large mass of muslim peasantry due to the sheer thickness of day to day ritual obligations, shared customary practices and other relationships. There would not have been any Hindus in Bengal or in Kashmir if, the peasant muslim masses of Bengal and Kashmir had decided that they did not want any Hindus around. The weight of muslim numbers, in Bengal and in Kashmir, would have been enough. I have also no doubts about the veracity of the texts you mention. Muslim kings, like the kings and satraps of all religions destroyed, and built temples and persecuted, or patronized non muslim religious sects and their leaders, depending on what was convenient to do, and when. I do not make judgements about an entire people based on what a king has done or not done. However, since you have mentioned kings, let me add my two pice worth of historical information (though I promise to try and not do more) The saga of destruction of temples and places of worship in Kashmir begins, not with the advent of Muslim power, but with the ravages wrought by the revival of Brahmanical Hinduism in the Kashmir Valley. It was Sankarvarman (883-901), destroyed the Buddhist complex at Parihaspura and used the debris to construct his new capital. Since you seem to have a reasonably well stocked library of history on Kashmir, please refer to a far more balanced account of the History of Kashmir - "Kashmir: A Glimpse in Time" by a respected Kashmiri Pandit scholar, Rajiv Sapru, in the 23rd (1998-1999) annual number of 'Vitasta', a fairly scohlarly publication of the Kolkata Kashmir Sabha, which I have always enjoyed reading, and have read, regularly. The depredations of Harsha are very well documented. I am quoting a book by N. N. Das Gupta, "The Sruggle for Empire",Bombay Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1957, (of course it might be suspect, since it is written by a Bengali Boddi/Viadya, like Gargi, me and Swapan Dasgupta the great friend of 'Panun Kashmir', just to set the record straight, but lets leave that aside for the moment) Harsha (1089-1101 A.D.), who was particularly keen on destroying temple images, two centuries before Muslim rule was established, had appointed special officers for the purpose designated as 'devotpaatana-nayaka' or "prefect for the destruction of icons". Dasgupta's sources for the narrative of Harsha's depredations include Kalhan's Rajtarangini [Struggle for Empire, p. 665] Later, another king Jayasimha (1128-1155 A.D.) broke down the images and burned the vihara of Arigon near Srinagara. There are several more examples of these acts of violence. Rajiv Sapru (referred to above) writes in the article that I have cited " Many theories are advanced to explain the destruction of the massive, megalithic Kashmiri temple structures. Sultan Sikandar (1389-1413), one of the Kashmiri Muslim rulers, has come in for most of the blame. Later historians have given the sultan the title of the Butshikan (Iconoclast) in the traditions of Mahmud of Ghazni, the Muslim invader who made the breaking of idols and the destruction of temples the mission of his life. But all the devastation is certainly not Sikandar's handiwork. There were Hindu kings also who revelled in the destruction of their predecessors' work. Some were prompted by jealousy, others by sheer fits of madness and still others by plain greed for the gold, silver, land, and property attached to the temples. Sankarvarman (883-901), for instance, was a narrow-minded zealot who uprooted the Buddhist complex at Parihaspura and, removing the vast material from there, built a whole new city close by at Sankarpura (modern Pattan on the road to Baramulla from Srinagar). Harsh (1089-1101), another Hindu king, was comparable to Nero in the cruel delight he took in watching marvels of workmanship go up in flames, or huge structures crumble down, demolished by a giant hammer blow. Many Brahmin priests also took advantage of the prevailing confusion, aiding in the vandalization of richly-endowed temples so that they fell into disuse and could conveniently be usurped. Sadly, all this was later attributed to religious bigotry alone." You are happy to quote the iconoclasm of Sikandar Shah, but not the exemplary religious tolerance of his son and successor Zain-al-Abedin, who invited the displaced brahmins to return, resettled them, gave them land and royal patronage and even delighted in the celebrations of Shiv Ratri, which, I no doubth you do not need to know, in Kashmiri are called, 'Herath'. I find your selective usage of historical material in order to buttress an exhausted and moribund argument, like the previous attempt made by one of your comrades, to distort a fragment of a court testimony, by taking it out of its context, frankly, disgusting. Anyway, We know that Kashmir, and especially Srinagar, and the region around Srinagar was a very important site of Buddhist worship and habitiation from many extant records, The sites known as the Jayendra vihara and Raja-vihara played a very important role right up to eleventh century , but the more important ones were Ratnagupta and Ratnarashmi vihars in 11th and 12th centuries, where large number of Mahayana scriptures were translated into Tibetan. But various Aacharyas of Tantrik Buddhism flourished in the valley of Kashmir. Also florished Kshemendra who depicted Buddha as avatara of Vishnu and hence his book was discarded as profane by Tibetian Lamas. Kashmir Buddhism also had a tremendous effect on both the Kashmir schools of Shaivism. [N. N. Das Gupta, "The Sruggle for Empire",Bombay Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1957 p.419 ff.] And Shankaracharya's journey to Srinagar has to be seen in relation to the wider process of the way in which Buddhist practices, viharas, schools and other sites were challenged by a renascent Brahminism. Shankaracharya's polemics against the buddhists of Kashmir is Interestingly, the entire effort to efface the distinction of the Buddhist world view, which the Sangh Parivar continues today, by insisting that Buddhists are Hindus (they are not and never have been) in many ways begins with our favourite eleventh century poet - Kshemendra. Buddha gets incorporated in the Puranic literature by being portrayed as the great 'deceiver', not because he preached a doctrine of compassion, but because he deceived the 'asuras' into discarding the Vedas, and thus hastened their demise. I do not hold any of you, or any Kashmiri Pandits responsible today for the willing endorsement that some of their ancestors must have given (or the part that they would have then played) in a protracted factional struggle between and within rival dynasties and warlords (both Hindu and Muslim) that led to the destruction of Buddhist shrines in Kashmir, and in the genocidial violence unleashed by Sankaravarman,Harsha and other successive kings against Buddhists in the Kashmir valley (where no Buddhists remain). But I do think that it is pathetic to dredge up what might or might not have happenned eleven hundred, or eight hundred or even five hundred or a hundred years ago to justify an argument about today. But, if, just in case I did, and if I did follow your pathetic example, then the Kashmiri Pandit argument about how they have always been the victim of oppression would be, well shattered. Not to mention, the patronage that the Kashmiri Pandit members of the Mughal bureaucracy enjoyed during Mughal rule and even during Afghan and Sikh, or the special, royal protection that the Hindu religion received during the years of Dogra rule and , after Kashmir was bought at a discounted rate in 1846. I know that parallel processes protected the priviledged position of upper cate Bengali elites in Bengal. Our so called ancestral property (in my paternal family), which is a class of property titles known as 'Devottar' in Mitakshara jurisprudence was endowed by a Muslim king to his Hindu physician, to build a Kali temple. Our priviledge, in Bengal, on the basis of which my ancestors oppressed their lower caste and muslim tenant farmers and bonded labourers was built on a compact with a Muslim aristocracy. I do not want to go into these details because I have nothing against Kashmiri Pandits as Kashmiri Pandits, or upper caste Bengalis as upper caste Bengalis, (no, I am not a self hating upper caste Bengali, self hatred is not the issue here) but when some of you offer up these exhausted narratives time and time again, all I can do is to sit up and take notice of the enormous fallacies that you are bent on pursuing. Now please, please do not let me embarass you further, I hate having to do it, and I do it only so that other people on this list who are not as well informed (they have no reason to be, and I do not hold it against them) or who pretend to be as well informed (like you all) about the history of Kashmir, and South Asia in general, and who do not, like me, sit up long hours into the night, wasting their time, reading old and dusty manuscripts, might not be misled by you. Please, please, all of you, read, pursue your arguments, as arguments, not by flailing about for pathetic half digested scraps of histories that you should be more familiar with than you actually are. And please get yourselves an education about how to use citations and quotations, about how to make an argument using historical sources, and of how to do textual and juridical interpretation. If this list teaches you how to do even a little bit of that, it might even serve your cause better, because then you will not be making really obvious and embarassing mistakes. Peope might then have reasons to treat you with some respect, even if they disagreed with you. Right now, you are only making yourself look ridiculous. And Rashneek, yes, the friend with whom I walked to the Khanqah of Shah Hamadan did mention that it was a Pandit shrine devoted to Kali (Bhairavi I think, but my memory might be playing tricks about the exact form of Kali we discussed). He did mention that he had seen people perform rituals by the riverside. He did mention that he regretted and felt deeply upset by the fact that he could no longer see that happen. We stayed quiet for a while after that, and I thought a little, just in passing, about the Kali temple that stood in the grounds of my father's ancestral house, (because a jagrata Kali was/is the family deity of my patrilineal family) which too was abandoned, but for reasons quite different from what any of you would imagine, but I do not want to go into that now. regards, and watch your step, all of you, as I always watch mine, and try and learn how to spell my name. Shuddha > Shudda, > > In case you wish to really delve into history of Kashmir to have a > meaningful discussion please read Baharaistan-i-Shahi.I am a giving a Muslim > historian because most here will say Hindu historians would lie. > Here are some excerpts > *The source of the texts is Bahiristan-i-Shahi.I am quoting without even > changing a line. > "Sultan Shihabu'd-Din addressed himself to such works as would help him get > peace in the world hereafter. He arranged a tomb and a burial place for > himself to be used after his death. Towards the fag end of his life, he was > infused with a zeal for demolishing idol-houses and destroying the temples > and idols of the infidels. He destroyed the massive temple at Beejeh Belareh > [31] (Bijbehara). He had designs to destroy all the temples and put an end > to the entire community of the infidels.[32] " > "Again it needs to be recorded that for some of the time which the holy Amir > spent in Kashmir he lived in a sarai at 'Alau'd-Din Pora. At the site where > his khanqah was built, there existed a small temple which was demolished and > converted into an estrade on which he offered namaz (prayer) five times a > day and recited portions of the Qur'an morning and evening. Sultan > Qutbu'd-Din occasionally * > *Some more Muslim Historians for you...* > *After the death of Sultan-Qutubdin,he was succeeded by his son Sultan > Sikandar who needs no introduction. "Sikandar But-shikan or Sikandar the > Iconoclast" burnt or destroyed as many temples as he could lay his hands on. > He killed thousands of Hindus and converted lacs. One significant detail is > that three kharwars (one kharwar is approximately equal to eighty kilograms) > of Hindu ceremonial thread (zunnar) were burnt by Sultan Sikandar. > (Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami, Pir Ghulam Hasan, Vol II, RPD,* Srinagar > 1954.).His period was a period of utter darkness and barbarianism in the > history of Kashmir.This is what historians (mostly muslims)have to say about > him**.**"He [Sikandar] prohibited all types of frugal games. Nobody dared > commit acts which were prohibited by the > **Sharia* > *.. The Sultãn was constantly busy in annihilating the infidels and > destroyed most of the temples..." (Haidar Malik Chãdurãh: Tãrîkh-i-Kashmîr; > edited and translated into English by Razia Bano, Delhi, 1991, p. 55.)"[he] > strived to destroy the idols and temples of the infidels. He got demolished > the famous temple of **Mahãdeva* * at > Bahrãre. The temple was dug out from its foundations and the hole (that > remained) reached the water level. Another temple at Jagdar was also > demolished… Rãjã Alamãdat had got a big temple constructed at > **Sinpur* > *. (...) the temple was destroyed [by Sikandar]." (Khwãjah Nizãmu'd- Dîn > Ahmad bin Muhammad Muqîm al-Harbî: Tabqãt-i-Akbarî translated by B. De, > Calcutta, 1973)"Sikander burnt all books the same wise as fire burns hay". > "All the scintillating works faced destruction in the same manner that lotus > flowers face with the onset of frosty winter." (Srivara, Zaina > Rajtarangini).Many mosques were constructed from the debris of broken hindu > temples. Iskandarpora was laid out on the debris of the destroyed temples of > Hindus. In the neighbourhood of the royal palace in Iskandarpora, the Sultan > destroyed the temple of Maha Shri which had been built by Pravarasena and > another one built by Tarapida. The material from these was used for > constructing a Jami' mosque in the middle of the city* > ** > If this isnt enough,please ask for more. > I suggest you read entire history of Kashmir before you try being an expert > on it. > > Regards > > Rashneek > > > On 9/3/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > >>Dear Ms Sengupta , >> >>I would quickly go thorogh few questions you have put forward to me. >> >>1. You have mentioned that few appeals of terrorists in Kashmir for return >>of Kashmiri Pandits to valley may be sincere . However have you ever read >>anywhere that the same people have ever tried to get the killers of >>Kashmiri >>pandits to Justice ? What makes you believe that we should believe them >>,when even now threats are being issued to kashmiri pandits , and the so >>called moderate just express their helplessness. >> >>2. The mosque where you went to with your friend in Khankah was a kali >>temple. Till 1989 we just used to pray by applying vermillion on the wall >>of >>that temple. Did your friend tell you about that ? >> >>3. You too are one who believe that jagmohan made kashmiri pandits leave >>the >>valley. What more can an example of a perfect brainwash. Would any sane >>person , unless feeling insecure, leave his home at the call of someone ? >>Would someone leave his home, orchards to live in tent without a penny in >>his pocket just because jagmohan asked him to do so. >> >>You have no knowledge . You are explaining the reason of my exodus to me . >>You have no idea of how I felt when i was alone in my house with my mother >>and sister with thousands of gun carrying mobs running carzily >>outside.Youhave no idea when my two neigbours includinga 88 year old >>person were killed >>and labelled mukhbirs. >> >>Thank you for first explaining me how to translate Kashmiri rightly and >>now >>a bigger thanks for explaining to me why I had to leave Kashmir and had to >>live in exile. >> >>God Bless >> >>Pawan Durani >> >> >> >> >>On 9/2/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >>>Dear all, dear Pawan, >>> >>>I totally agree with Pawan Durani that an accounting for the genocidial >>>violence unleashed by the regimes that were in power in the Soviet >>>Union, and the one that continues to be in power in the Peoples Republic >>>of China is necessary.I say this, as someone who was raised within the >>>Communist tradition, and as someone who has no hesitation in saying that >>>I continue to hope for a stateless, classless global society, free of >>>nations, corporate profit and war, if not in my lifetime, then at least >>>in the lifetime of generations to come. Everyone has their own vision of >>>a better world, I have mine, parts of which or all of which I might >>>share with the visions of others, as they might share theirs with mine, >>>and I do not see any reason to be apologetic for that vision. I say this >>>because I have no shame, or regret in calling myself a Communist. I am >>>not now, nor ever have been a member of any communist party, but just as >>>I hope it is possible for people to consider themselves Hindu even if >>>they were not member of the RSS, or Muslims even if they did not >>>necessarily subscribe to a specific jamaat, or Christians who followed >>>the example of Christ rather than the doctrine of an organized church, I >>>do believe that it is possible to consider oneself a non-party >> >>Communist. >> >>>Communists, more than anyone else, must deal with, account for and take >>>responsibility for the fact that their convictions were perverted and >>>held hostage by ruling formations, cliques and classes that led to some >>>of the most vicious and ruthless dictatorships known to human history. >>>They must account for letting this happen, even when they were >>>themselves the first and most frequent victims of these regimes. Their >>>being victims of Stalin's purges does not excuse them from the >>>responsibility of creating a figure like Stalin in the first place. The >>>totalitarian nightmare of Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, Caesescu's Rumania >>>or Hoxha's Albania are not a legacy that anyone can be proud of. Nor can >>>we be proud of the intrigue and petty authoritarianisms that mark the >>>Trotskyite and Maoist or Marxist Leninist formations that continue to >>>function, after a fashion, in our midst. >>> >>>I say this knowing that the majority of those who perished in Stalin's >>>gulag, were, Communists. When Leon Trotsky ordered soldiers to fire on >>>the striking sailors of the Kronstadt, he was a communist sanctioning >>>the murder of communist militants. The millions who died in Siberia, who >>>went to forced labour camps, were Communists. They went to the firing >>>squad singing the Internationale - a song whose jaunty tune still has >>>the capacity to lift my spirits on a glum day. And I love to whistle it >>>when it rains.Still, It breaks my heart to hear it sung, because it is a >>>song sung by executioners and by those that thyt executed, but hey, who >>>said the world was a simple place where it all works out in the end? >>>Everything is messy, and each of our histories is part of the mess. >>> >>>All this happenned, in my opinion, because, the nationalist logic of >>>'Socialism in One Country' and/or a tragic romance with the >>>intoxication of newly won state power perverted the deeply democratic >>>and internationalist elan of the global communist movement beyond >>>imagination. From a movement that actively desired the withering away of >>>the state, it became a political formation that presided over the >>>withering away of society, of everything but the state. This is an >>>object lesson for all revolutionaries and insurgents. Yesterday's >>>fighters for freedom often become tomorrows prison wardens. I know of no >>>exceptions. >>> >>>The logic of Capital is not necessarily a logic of private property. >>>Advanced forms of Capitalism actually abolish private property, >>>concentrating socially produced wealth in giant coroporate abstractions >>>far more efficiently than 'nationalization' by so called socialist >>>regimes can. What happenned in the Soviet Union, China and the erstwhile >>>so called 'Peoples Democracies' was not 'socialism, or communism' but a >>>monstrous amalgam of Capital and the State in the name of saving, yes, >>>the Nation State. That is why there is no contradiction between the >>>hyper capitalism that prevails in China today and the twisted dialectic >>>of Mao Zedong thought. That is why Stalinists adore big dams, nuclear >>>power and nuclear weapons to the extent that they do. >>> >>>Our own so called Communist Parties are no exception. I would like to >>>illustrate this with an example that has current relevance, which has >>>been gestured to even in the link that Pawan Durani has forwarded in one >>>of his recent postings, and which might be of interest to some - I am >>>talking of the current impasse over what is being called the 'nuclear >>>deal' with the United States of America. Having deceived most people in >>>this country, that they were against the Nuclear Weapons programme, they >>>(the mainstream parliamentary left, led by the two so called Communist >>>Parties) have now come around to a public posture of trying to create a >>>protective 'fence' around our own weaponization programme, which is what >>>they mean as 'strategic autonomy' under the banner of national >>>sovereignty. In doing this, they have come full circle, and are now >>>saying more or less exactly what the BJP has been saying all along. They >>>are also in the same ideological boat as the ruling juntas in Islamabad, >>>Tehran and Tel Aviv, which are also committed, overtly and sometimes >>>covertly, to their own 'patriotic' nuclear deterrents. >>> >>>I am not an advocate of the 1-2-3 Treaty that will lock India locked >>>into a military embrace with the United States. I am totally opposed to >>>it, and I think that it will put us all in harm's way. But I think that >>>the only way to oppose it is to insist on de-nuclearization - by arguing >>>for the scrapping of the nuclear weapons fantasies of our ruling elites >>>and by creating a sharp and coherent opposition to the idea of India >>>becoming some sort of super power in Asia. This process (of achieving >>>super power status) will being untold misery on the people who live in >>>this country and in Asia at large. The greedy fantasy of energy security >>>which makes our ruling elites salivate at the thought of sending Indian >>>troops to guard 'indian' interests and assets in central asia is >>>something that sends shivers down my spines. For the sake of all our >>>futures, I hope such dreams are never realized. They will lead us >>>straight towards war, and disaster. >>> >>>But our mainstream parliamentary left is as involved in living out this >>>fantasy as anyone else is. It's argument for 'strategic autonomy' means >>>that it wants to keep India's arsenal of nuclear weapons, wants to >>>strike a patriotic pose, and is willing at a pinch, basically to hand >>>this country back to the right reaction of the BJP - all in the name of >>>proving how nationalist they are. The red in their flags is turning >>>slowly to saffron. >>> >>>The choice that we could be making as a society is not one of choosing >>>to strike alliances between an Imperialist United States or a fascist >>>Iran, or an expansionist China. The only choice worth making is that of >>>jettisoning nuclear weapons, demilitarizing South Asia, firstly by >>>finding a solution to Kashmir that is acceptable to the majority of the >>>people who live there, by making peace with our neighbours, and by >>>ending the military occupations of the north eastern territories. It is >>>a sign of the poverty of political imaginations in this country today >>>that these choices are precisely those that the so called 'left' parties >>>are bent on jettisoning but clinging to their new found doctrine of >>>'strategic autonomy', which puts them straight in bed, whether they like >>>it or not, with the Bharatiya Janata Party. >>> >>>It was nationalism that perverted the communist ideal. That made the >>>Soviet Union travel a distance from being the product of a revolution >>>that had abolished the standing army to becoming a power that could only >>>sustain itself with brute military force, and then not at all. >>> >>>From a conviction that held only one thing sacred, and that being that >>>the world should have no walls, it became an ideology that built walls >>>and the barbed wire fences of the gulag. From a form of political >>>culture that privileged the widest liberty, with Rosa Luxemburg stating >>>that freedom of expression is not freedom unless it is for those who are >>>against us - communist parties travelled a long distance - to presiding >>>over the routine suffocation of all dissent with a banal brutality. >>> >>>And for all this, I hold the virus of nationalism, to a large measure >>>responsible. That is why though I have no quarrel with people who use >>>the label socialist, communist, or even anarchist to describe my >>>positions, I will never agree to be called a nationalist. When you put >>>nationalism and socialism together, you get something called National >>>Socialism. And effectively, there is little for me to choose between the >>>National Socialism that prevailed in Germany from 1933 to 1945 and the >>>Socialist Nationalism that prevailed in USSR, for the better part of the >>>twentieth century, and that continues to prevail in China today. The >>>differences that do exist are not of kind, but of degree. >>> >>>I am willing to accept the necessity to conduct a personal atonement for >>>the millions who perished under regimes that called themselves >>>communist. I personally think that it is the responsibility of anyone >>>who calls himself or herself a communist today to undertake to mourn for >>>all those who were (or are being) killed or displaced or imprisoned or >>>imprisoned in the name of communism, to repent and ask for forgiveness. >>> >>>Because I am a communist, I hold nothing higher than humanity - >>>ordinary simple humanity - just the worth of human beings as human >>>beings, in all their unpredictable, unscriptable variety. Neither >>>nations, nor parties, nor god, nor gods, nor any ideal or abstraction of >>>progress can be more important than the health and well being of a >>>child, or the freedom to do with our time, our leisure and our labour >>>power as we see fit. I do not want martyrs or heroes, I want to live my >>>life with ordinary people, doing ordinary things. I want no one I love >>>or care for to have to die for the sake of a flag or any abstract idea, >>>because flags and abstractions cannot feed, clothe or shelter human >>>beings with dignity or liberty for all. >>> >>>This does not mean that we abandon politics, it just means that we work >>>very hard to fashion a politics that does not demand the sacrificial >>>offering of our humanity on a daily, hourly basis. I am willing to >>>engage with anyone, no matter what they believe in, who is sincerely >>>committed to this enterprise. But it does require us all to take a long >>>and hard look at ourselves. I want to know which political ideology, >>>which nation, which religious faith has not, in the history of humanity >>>demanded and received its due in blood. Everyone can claim the status of >>>victims for themselves, and everyone has the blood of others on their >>>hands. And the arithmetic of who has killed more, and who has killed >>>less is far less interesting than the more difficult and demanding task >>>of accounting for the actions of the executioners on your own side. >>> >>>What I want to know is, will those who call themselves nationalists >>>undertake to mourn for all those who have been killed in order that >>>their beloved and sacred nations remain the fictions that they are on >>>the map of the world? >>> >>>For me, the communist idea remains what it was for the Communards of the >>>Paris Commune, for the partisans of the Petersburgh Soviet and for the >>>Workers and Peasant Councils of Republican Spain - that of a world, and >>>a social order where people, not corporations or governments, control >>>the relations they enter into in order to produce the things that make >>>life possible and worth living. A world without armies, states, police >>>forces, intelligence agencies, weapons traders, or factories that >>>pollute the earth or poison peoples bodies. A world without alienated >>>and alienating labour. Where each of us labour according to our >>>capacities and receive the fruits of our labour according to our >>>neends. Where we begin to move from the shackles of necessity to the >>>emancipation of desire. >>> >>>For this reason, I am willing most of all, to look hard and long at the >>>legacies that I have inherited, and subject them to the sharpest >>>possible critique if they are found poor and wanting in relation to the >>>dream of a just and free world. If this list is a place where we can all >>>begin this process of reflection on the limitations and areas of >>>darkness within all that we profess and have inherited - whether as >>>liberals, islamists, hindutva-vadis, secularists, nationalists, cynics >>>and sceptics then it will be worth the provocation that Pawan Durani has >>>put before us. I thought I would rise to the bait, and risk making a >>>fool of myself, if necessary. Of course, if we all think that none of us >>>have anything to reflect on or atone for, I, and I hope Pawan, will be >>>sorely disappointed. >>> >>>Your turn Pawan. Tell me what you think is wrong with the fact that the >>>Indian state killed so many thousands of people in Kashmir. Do you think >>>there is anything wrong? Or would you like to pass over these >>>thousands of deaths in silence. >>> >>>I have heard more than the odd person with separatist sentiments in >>>Kashmir make the gesture of apology for the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, >>>and for the death of Kashmiri pandits, for the destruction of their >>>property. Sometimes the sadness and regret in that apology is a ritual, >>>but often it is not fake. I walked with a friend in Srinagar one night >>>in the vicinity of the Khanqah and mosque of Shah Hamadan, and he >>>pointed out to me a place close by the bank of the river where a shrine >>>once stood, and then we both stood in front of it in silence for a >>>while. And he tried to find words to talk about the strange days of >>>1989. It wasn't easy for him, and I did not make it easy for him, but >>>the conversation did not damage our friendship. >>> >>>He told me what I knew already, about the way Jagmohan, then then >>>governor of Jammu and Kashmir, engineered the exodus, about the rumours >>>and panic that was spread through the grapevines carefully cultivated by >>>the state, and about the painful slogans in the streets. All this I >>>know, we all know. But he also said, "It was wrong of the state to make >>>them go, It was wrong on the part of those that created the climate of >>>fear (and he meant the separatists, or those within their ranks who had >>>undoubtedly attacked some high profile Kasmiri Pandit individualsr, and >>>it was wrong on their part for them to go and to leave us at the mercy >>>of the state, but it was also wrong on our part that we did so little to >>>make them stay". >>> >>>I want you to think carefully and tell me if you can respect this >>>feeling of loss? I agree that you have every reason for your pain, but >>>what if I said, abandoning those who were your neighbours also gave them >>>no opportunity to heal or at least address your pain. Have you ever >>>considered what it is like to be yourself, when someone who is not you, >>>who is the other, is no longer there to speak to, to be with, to be >>>different from? What is the strange loss we feel when the person we >>>think is our most intense antagonist leaves us alone to be with >>>ourselves? For many Kashmiri's who remain where they have always lived, >>>who did not have places to go to where the Indian army would not hound >>>them, perhaps It comes from a strange and difficult to explain sense of >>>loss at seeing the abandonment of their neighbours home. Perhaps It >>>comes from the unease of knowing that no 'azadi' will ever be complete >>>if it is won at the cost of the exodus of a minority. Sometimes it comes >>>from the memory of a Pandit school master in a village school who >>>suddenly disappeared on that night that you all mention. >>> >>>I always find it interesting to come to that point when someone says >>>that his or her people have done something wrong. Often it means >>>risking being called a traitor. I think in our times, traitors are >>>saints. Imperfect, flawed, awkward saints, but the only kind that I can >>>light a candle to. So all heretics are my friends. They make it possible >>>for people in the camps of their enemies undertake necessary acts of >>>counter-treason. When two traitors meet from opposite sides, there is >>>the possibility of an encounter very different from the kind that >>>normally gets scripted by the security forces of our beleagured >>>republic. There is the possibility of an unpredictable conversation. >>>This list, over the past few days, has been the setting for some >>>unpredictable conversations, I do not wish them to end. >>> >>>I am a traitor, and many communists will call me one for saying the >>>things that I have said in this post in response to your provocation. >>>But then I think that sometimes, treason is the only honorable thing. >>> >>>However, I have yet to come across a Indian nationalist ideologue who >>>believes Kashmir to be an indivisible part of India express any regret >>>over the thousands of Kashmiri Muslims who were killed by Indian >>>soldiers or who disappeared in the nineties in Kashmir, or about the >>>thousands who were tortured or imprisoned, because all this happenned to >>>keep Kashmir's within the map of India. For them, this violence was >>>justified and necessary. Those deaths were necessary. >>> >>>You may meet many communists who will say that the killing of millions >>>in the Soviet Union or in China was justified and necessary. I am not >>>one of them, and there are many others like me. But I am still looking >>>for the Indian nationalist who is willing to say sorry for Kashmir, for >>>Manipur, for Nagaland. >>> >>>Perhaps you could be the one who makes a beginning. Try it out in your >>>head and tell me what it feels like. Reject it if you want, but at least >>>try it out. And tell me what it feels like for a moment to be a little >>>larger than your own corner of the pain that engulfs us all. Please do >>>share your feeling with this list. >>> >>>regards, >>> >>>Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Pawan Durani wrote: >>> >>>>With the passing of communism into history as an ideological >> >>alternative >> >>>to >>> >>>>democracy it is time to do some accounting of its human costs. >>>> >>>>http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM >>>>_________________________________________ >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>Critiques & Collaborations >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>>subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>>_________________________________________ >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>Critiques & Collaborations >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>subscribe in the subject header. >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>_________________________________________ >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>Critiques & Collaborations >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>subscribe in the subject header. >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 17:37:41 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:37:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Victim of J&K Bank Crying for help Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709030507o3597827cs3b3d31a5592d43d5@mail.gmail.com> *Victim of J&K Bank Crying for help* ** By aalav Special Correspondent Bangalore ** The case is simple. Mr. Kuldeep Kumar Kaul was working as Branch manager of Kamraz Rural bank, sponsored by the J&K Bank, the leading Bank in the state. Like lakhs of unfortunate Kashmiri pandits, he too had to flee the Valley in 1990. Since his wife was working in HMT, he migrated along with his family to Bangalore where his wife was adjusted in HMT factory. Since there was no bank branch of the Kamraz Rural Bank in Karnataka, he was getting migrant salary without any adjustment like lakhs of other State Govt employees all over the country. His physically challenged wife, Usha Kaul, due to extreme shock of forced migration developed 'seropositive gross rheumatoid arthritis' which affected her multiple joints resulting in deformities all over the body with permanent disability of severe nature above 80 per cent. She has been certified a disabled person and can not manage without support of another person. This couple has two children and an old and ailing mother. Somehow managing his family and medical expenses, Kuldeep Kaul has been getting his salary till 2005 at Bangalore through the sponsor bank J&K Bank. In 2005 end, the bank asked him to join back in the Valley and he represented with facts and figures. He wanted the bank to adjust him in any of the four branches of J&K Bank as was done in the case of Ellaquai Dehati bank, a sponsor bank of State Bank of India. But his representations fell on deaf ears. His salary has been stopped and now he has been served with a dismissal notice from the service. Though it is a fit case for study and violation of human rights and from all angles a genuine case to project the woes of KPs, he has no means to represent the case and contest the case in Jammu since the bank has clearly mentioned that all the disputes are limited to J&K courts. All that Mr. Kaul is requesting for a placement in any of the branches of J&K bank in Bangalore and he is willing to work. He has sent representation to the Chief Minister, Chief Secretary, Chairman of the Bank, President and Prime Minister. Can the thinking citizens help him and save his job ? Mr. Kuldeep Kaul, B-111, P G Apartments, 13/2 SM Road, Jalahalli Bangalore-560015 Ph: 080-28377868 From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 3 20:37:42 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 20:37:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709030338t96f558l22e0bf53a311de8d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> <46DBCCC5.9050606@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709030324r6a468e0bt23cab18bdc068365@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709030338t96f558l22e0bf53a311de8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DC233E.8050400@sarai.net> Dear Pawan, Thank you for your answers, I take it then that by saying "to a kashmiri when any innocent dies ; the peace dies" - that you are offering, if not an apology, then at least a qualified note of regret, for the thousands of non-combatants (who were not militants and had not taken up arms) who were killed, or hurt, or who disappeared as a result of the Indian state's military forces occupation of the Kashmir valley, so that Kashmir could remain a part of the Indian Union. I am not talking here of people who were killed by militants, or even of people who were killed in what is euphemistally called 'cross fire'. I am talking about people who were picked up, taken away and killed, or imprisoned, or tortured by the armed forces of the Indian state. I think these occurence, are comparable in scale and scope to similar patterns in Argentina, Chile, Israel, Turkey, Central Africa, Iran, Iraq, the former Yugoslavia and Indonesia throughout the eighties and nineties of the twentieth Century. In some instances, as in Argentina, Chile, Iraq and the former Yugoslavia, there have been imperfect and flawed non partisan efforts to bring the perpetrators of these state sponsored 'crimes against humanity' to account and to justice. I see no reason why the same should not happen with regard to those specifically resonsible within the political, military and intelligence apparatuses of the Indian state when dealing with well documented and provable instances of state terror in Kashmir, Punjab or the North East in the eighties, nineties and today. As for your questions, let me first of all say, that I hold no brief for either Yasin Malik, or Bitta Karatey, or any other person. My natural political instincts incline me to be suspicious and skeptical of all individuals who taken on the mantle of the 'librators' of their peoples.This does not exclude the incumbent leadership of the JKLF or any other political formation in the valley, or outside it, which makes a claim to speak on behalf of the Kashmiri people. It also extends to all Indian politicians, and politicans everywhere. As a writer I admire, Bertholt Brecht once said, 'Pity the people that need heroes'. So for me, 'liberators' particularly those with an evolving cult of personality, be they Yasin Malik, or Yasser Arafat, or Dr. Agnishekhar of 'Panun Kashmir', or any other such person, are all deeply suspect. So I will not be pushed into a corner where I have to 'defend' the record of any such person. Frankly, I don't care, whether tomorrow, such persons remain acknowledged as 'liberators'or get exposed as pawns in larger political machinations. It often turns out that way. However, I have heard Yasin Malik offer a regret and an apology for what happenned in Kashmir to the Pandits. And since such a statement was given at a public forum, at the World Social Forum in Mumbai I cannot, and will not disregard it, (incidentally there is a reader list thread of a discussion between me and Zainab on this issue, where again, issues to do with freedom of expression are raised), And once again, I reiterate, I have not heard any Indain Nationalist offer such an unconditional apology to the people of Kashmir, and until that happens, Yasin Malik, well, will have a better score card in the apology olympics. Pardon my flippant tone, but I do think apologies are important here. And no matter what I think or do not think of Yasin Malik, his apology will stand as a significant testimonial that we cannot ignore. To the best of my knowledge, Bitta Karatey has served time in prison from 1990 to October 2006, which is a total of 16 years in Prison. He is out at the moment on conditional bail, while trial proceedings continue. If he is found guilty of homicide in a free and fair trial, he should undoubtedly serve the time in prison that is necessary. I am not, like Rashneek, a believer in Capital Punishment, and I will not advocate capital punishment. Yasin Malik has had more several spells in prison, the first began when he was detained for one year under the Public Safety Act in 1987, he was later detained for seven years, including a long spell in Jodhpur Central Jail. Again, if he, or any other person is found guilty in a free and fair trial of the homicide of non combatants then they should serve prison sentences for that offence. As for the deaths of Indian State and Armed Forces Personnel. Let me make my position clear. I am not a votary of pursuing politics by violence, no matter who does it. Not because I have a moral position vis a vis violence, but because I believe that the strategy of terror, no matter who pursues it, invariably leads to secretive, un-accountable and un-democratic politics, which leads to popular movements being corrupted and infiltrated by the very forces that they are opposing. I think this has happenned in Kashmir, and it happenned both because of the machinations of the Indian state and the political immaturity of the pro Azadi 'tanzeems' in Jammu and Kashmir, and in the Kashmiri diaspora. However, having said that, I recognize that Kashmir is a place that actually is in the midst of a protracted armed conflict, with a very powerful state imposing its will on a population on the basis of its military might.Let us not forget, that people like Yasin Malik made every effort to enter the peaceful, democratic, electoral process. Yasin Malik was a young election agent in the fatally rigged election in Jammu and Kashmir of 1987. It is the Indian State's sustained and continuing refusal to engage with the democratic aspirations and politics in Kashmir, that is primarily responsible for leading these young men (young at that time) towards militancy. Militancy for many of them was, and remains, a flawed, last option, but it was and is the only option offered to them by the Government of India. The first guns to be raised in Kashmir, in 1988, were not of the 'militants', but of the CRPF, when an ordinary protest against an electricity failure on a cold winter night in 1988 turned into a bloodbath. This occurred before a single Pandit was killed. The first target of militancy were not Pandits, but political party personnel associated with a corrupt administration imposed, not through elections, but through fraud. You forget that the first targets are in fact political workers of the National Conference, beginning with the well known assasination of a block president of the National Conference, a man called Yusuf Halwai on the 21st of August, 1988. This is part of the historical record. The second assasination is of Tika Lal Taploo, the first Pandit to be attacked, on the 14th of September, 1988, not because he is a Pandit, but because he is J&K state BJP president, in the unlikely event of the BJP having a Muslim state president in J&K, I am sure it is he who would have been the target. This is followed by the assasination of Justice Ganjoo, remembered for handing down the death sentence on Maqbool Butt. Again, had the judge been a Muslim, he would have been a target. Then, after contiuning harsh reprisals by the state armed forces, come the selective assasinations of high ranking government servants and political figures, in which Muslims far outnumber Pandits. Several pro Azadi political figures are also killed in assasinations at this time, including Mirwaiz Farooq. By this time, it is quite unclear as to which agencies are involved, whom they owe alleigance to (pro Azadi elements, Pro Pakistan elements, agent provocateurs acting under orders from Indian intelligence agents - and with people switching patronage quite rapidly in a murky shadow play that continues in Kashmir, where a 'militant' may be working for several different, antagonistic forces, all at once) in how many killings, targetting whom. I am deliberately here not detailing the history of massacres of unarmed crowds by Indian armed forces, including the famous Gawakadal Massacre on Gawakadal Bridge in Srinagar on January 20, 1990. If, however, as in any armed conflict, or occupation, the personnel of the armed services, and the echelons of the state of the occupying power get targetted by elements in the population who are resisting that occupation, I cannot but see that violence as a measure taken by a population to defend itself against the occupation. A measure whose political consequences may actually, tragically, backfire on the same population, through an exponential increase in the violence of that occupation. As it has done in Kashmir. As for the harrassment or violence to the persons or property of Pandits that occurred in the valley in the immediate period after 1989, I have no hesitation in condemning it, un-equivocally, no matter who did it. And it is upto those who conducted that violence to apologize for it, not me. I do know however, as has been shown in the dark and murky history of the Chattisinghpura massacre, that elements close to state power did enter the ranks of militants, or masqueraded as militants, and deliberately carried out some, (not all) of these massacres, in a well proven strategy to produce and sustain a climate of tension, and to persuade the Pandits to leave Kashmir. The experience of the infiltration, masquerade and creation of the spectacle of 'Red Terror' in the nineteen eighties and before in Italy, Belgium and elsewhere in Europe, under Operation Gladio, or the measured that have been used often in Turkey vis a vis the insurgency in Kurdistan, or the Israeli secret agencies role in the early days of Hamas, which are all well documented, and some of which I have written about elsewhere, are indicative of this process. The Indian state is not alone in pursuing these tactics. So, I am not confident that all the attacks on Pandits that happenned, such as those perpetrated by the groups who later became identified as 'Ikhwanis' were not also engineered by what I have called the 'deep state' in India. For a fuller account of the 'Ikhwanis' and their activities please see A 'Human Rights Watch' Report of May 1996, Vol 8. No.4 (C) http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1996/ I will quote here only one statement from this report which says - "Many incidents of violence in Kashmir go unattributed and unpunished. The impunity enjoyed by the security forces for a wide range of abuses, and the murderous internecine battles among the various militant groups has created a climate of violence in which murder has become routine. By creating its own militias to fight the militant groups, India has fostered conditions bordering on anarchy in Kashmir. In many cases, it is impossible to know whether militants or state-sponsored paramilitary groups are behind particular acts of violence." Clearly, we need a fuller account of the events of the shadowy 1989 and post 1989 history of Kashmir before we begin apportioning blame for the attacks on Pandits. As of now, the secrecy that shrouds the Indian state's operations in Kashmir makes that difficult. One thing is clear, the Indian state inflicted enormous violence on non combatants in Kashmir from 1989 onwards. Would you now agree, Pawan, that for this violence, it needs to be held accountable, in terms that have been laid down in international law, as has happenned in Argentina and Central Africa, under the general category of 'Crimes against Humanity'? Let me finally state something quite simple. I do not care, whether, tomorrow, Kashmir becomes independent, stays with India, or is absorbed by Pakistan, or becomes part of some confederation of future Central Asian states, or becomes part of some joint arrangement between India and Pakistan. Whether the future rulers of Kashmir come from the Hurriyet, the JKLF, the National Conference, Panun Kashmir or some long lost descendent of Zainal Abedin, or Lalitaditya is of no concern to me.I hold no brief for any aspirant to power. It is actually not up to me to care which flags, or how many flags, or which combination of flags flies in Kashmir. It is upto the people of Kashmir, and I am constrained to respect whatever they choose, even if I am not in agreement with it. I am not a Kashmiri, I do not live in Kashmir. All I care about is, that whatever happens should have the consent of the majority of people who are Kashmiris and live in Kashmir, and that this consent should be ascertained by free and fair means in a manner that is transparent to the international community. I do however care about the fact that as an Indian citizen, the continued occupation of the Indian occupied part of Kashmir, happens in my name, without either my consent (and there are many like me) or the consent of the people so occupied. Hence, I, and all Indian citizens are being made complicit in this brutal occupation, unless we take a stand to the contrary. That is what I am doing. I am not interested in being made party to this continuing state of violence. I think that relationships between people in Kashmir and the rest of South Asia, which includes all of us who live in India can become normal, mutually affirming, generous and productive, if all Kashmiris (without exception) are allowed a say in what their future will be. As someone who is not a nationalist, I have no interest in providing the blueprint of a future Kashmiri nation state, or even endorsing a possible future Kashmiri nation state, but I do have an interest in trying to ensure that all and any people be free to choose their own destiny, and choose their own version of disaster or paradise, as they see fit, especially when the possibility of that choice is made difficult by a policy of rule that implicates me, as a citizen/subject of this Republic. I know that the first condition of that situation is a withdrawal of the armed forces of the Indian Republic from the Indian occupied part of Jammu and Kashmir and the withdrawal of the armed forces of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan from the territory held by them since 1948. What follows after this, is anyone's guess, and should be the subject of creative political imaginations, but examples as banal and diverse as the recent histories of places as far flung as Bosnia-Herzegovina, Northern Ireland and East Timor do suggest that a variety of workable options can be found, which need not necessarily violate the consent of the local populations. What solutions are found in the interim, is again something that the people of Kashmir should be the first and last arbiters of. I hope I have made myself clear on this score. regards Shuddha Pawan Durani wrote: > Shuddha , > > Since I have answered you , I wish you too have an answer for these two > questions of mine > > 1. Do you condemn Yasin malik and his likes like Bitta karate for their > killings of Kashmiri pandit and Indian armed personels and do you want him > to be bought to justice ? > > 2. Do you condemn the killings of minorties in Kashmir ? > > In your own words "These are very simple question, and it has two very > simple answers,either yes, or no. The maybe option does not exist,." > > Waiting for a simple answer.......Hope you do what you preach. > > Lastly , a bit of advise . Do not call Kashmir as "Occupied Kashmir" . > > Pawan Durani > > > On 9/3/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > >>Dear Sen , >> >>I belong to a community which has no history of violence. I belong to a >>community which has never even picked up a stone to throw at somebody, leave >>aside knives and guns. >> >>As a Kashmiri Hindu and as a responsible Indian , i do grieve at any >>innocent life which is lost, whether it is in Kashmir , Darfur or >>Afghanistan.And this is not a ststement I am giving you , this i told in >>an interview to BBC & CNN -IBN even when we were protesting against Yasin >>Malik when he sat with the families of missing people in Delhi. >> >>To a father, when his child dies, the future dies; to a child, when his >>parents die, the past dies ; to a kashmiri when any innocent dies ; the >>peace dies. >> >>IRegards >> >>Pawan Durani >> >> >> >> >> > > From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Sep 3 21:12:27 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 21:12:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CPJC Salwa Judum Meeting Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <46002a710709030247y69f848fagc06ddf264ad429ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <46002a710709030247y69f848fagc06ddf264ad429ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30709030842x176a18e8kcf9cfceb52988aba@mail.gmail.com> Apologies for cross posting. Please find below an invitation to a public meeting being organised on salwa judum by the Campaign for Peace and Justice in Chattisgarh, taking place tomorrow at Hindi Bhavan, New Delhi. The convention will start at 2 pm and is expected to run until 5:30 or so. Campaign for Peace and Justice in Chhattisgarh Invites you to a People's Convention On Salwa Judum: Civil war in Chhattisgarh 4th September 2007, 2 p.m. onwards At Hindi Bhawan, Vishnu Digambar Marg, New Delhi (Near Gandhi Peace Foundation, ITO) Programme details: Film screening: India's Hidden War Dir:James Brabazon Voices from Dantewada: Himanshu Kumar (Vanvasi Chetana Ashram, Dantewada) Kawasi Lakhma (MLA, Konta) Manish Kunjam (ex-MLA and Gen.Sec, Adivasi Mahasabha), …and others Discussion with Journalists and Members of Parliament: Ajit Jogi (ex-Chief Minister of Chhattisgarh) Sandeep Dikshit (Member of Parliament, Delhi) Other Members of Parliament … We look forward to your participation. In Solidarity, Campaign for Peace and Justice in Chhattisgarh Background: In the summer of 2005, news reports started appearing of a 'spontaneous', 'self-initiated',' peaceful', 'people's movement' in Dantewada district of Chhattisgarh against the Naxalites, known as the Salwa Judum. The district administration claims that upset with the Maoist strike call on collecting tendu leaves and opposition to development works like road construction and grain levies, people in some 200 villages began mobilizing against the Maoists, going on processions and holding meetings. However, this picture of the Salwa Judum is far from accurate. The fact is that the Salwa Judum is being led by sections of local elites, contractors and traders, that it is officially part of the official anti-naxal initiatives, being actively supported by the Chhattisgarh Government. Far from being a peaceful campaign, Salwa Judum 'activists' are armed with guns, lathis, axes, bows and arrows. Up to January 2007, 4048 "Special Police Officers" (SPOs) had been appointed by the Government under the Chhattisgarh Police Regulations. They actively participate in the Salwa Judum and are given military and weapons training by the security forces as part of an official plan to create a civil vigilante structure parallel to that of the Naxalites. Though exact figures are not known, over the last two years, atleast 1, 00,000 people have been displaced and the lives of at least 3, 00,000 people from at least 644 "liberated villages" has been completely disrupted, because of Salwa Judum. People are forcibly picked up from their villages and are confined into 'relief camps', where they face acute shortage of food, water and other basic amenities. The condition of several thousands who have been forced to migrate to neighbouring states and districts is even worse. All those villages which have not come into camps are deemed "Maoists" villages and denied all health, education and other facilities, including access to markets. A large number of people have thus been denied their fundamental rights. There has been a complete breakdown of civil administration and the rule of law in Dantewada district and Salwa Judum 'activists' have become vigilantes who assert the right to control, intimidate and punish anyone they consider to be a suspected Naxalite. Cases of murder, loot, arson, rape and other violence and atrocities by Salwa Judum go unreported. The Government does not accept responsibility for the actions of the Salwa Judum 'activists', it sponsors, encourages, promotes and assures them full state protection and grants them impunity to operate as an extra-legal authority within the district. The Government's only response to Maoist insurgency has been to militatrise; step up police operations and to pit civilians, in the name of Salwa Judum, against Maoists and against each other. By resorting to such measures, the government has seriously challenged the efficacy of democratic and constitutional means of finding solutions to people's problems. It has completely failed to address the root of the discontent, the deprivation and alienation of Adivasis, which form basis of the Maoist foothold in Dantewara. Even according to states government's own figures, Salwa Judum has only intensified the conflict. About CPJC: The Campaign for Peace and Justice in Chhattisgarh is a campaign group formed by individuals and organisations who are deeply concerned about the flagrant violation of human rights going on in Chhattisgarh in the name of fighting "internal terrorism". We are extremely concerned by the violence unleashed by the state backed Salwa Judum which has pushed Chhattisgarh into a civil war situation and the repressive Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act, 2005 which is being used to crush all voices of dissent in the state. Contact us: Email: cpjcindia at gmail.com; Website: www.cpjc.wordpress.com Pravin Mote: 09313879073; Goldy George: 09958313838; Sridevi Panikkar: 09868099304 From bangali_mnb at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 21:39:49 2007 From: bangali_mnb at yahoo.com (bangali_ mnb) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:09:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] Sixth Posting, Mithun Narayan Bose, I. Fellow, Sarai Message-ID: <53934.42036.qm@web35714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Landscapes and Others: Some Important Aspects of the Kolkata Rickshaw-Paintings Many rickshaws of this city have many landscapes drawn behind them and it seems a common practice. But what is interesting is the depiction of the rural landscapes in particular in most of the cases. I felt much curiosity and thus I went many a time in the shanties or the makeshift rooms where most of my subjects do live to breathe their life in order to understand them properly and I have seen the helplessness they do suffer to use the rail lines as the mass lavatory and when their wives have to bathe in the road side taps in front of so many naked eyes. Thus the depiction of beautiful rural landscapes seems more interesting and I have found some insight about the subject. Almost every rickshaw pullers are from villages and naturally they have this rural connection but I felt that the memory of the bygone era, a mass nostalgia is being here to control the mind of these people. The intolerable difficulties they have to be taken as a part of everyday living and the lack of the sense of being as a social entity instead of the more steady flow of money is one of the curses of civilization and urbanization in throughout the world and Kolkata is no exception. But there is sense of losing and an indomitable urge to attain that life again instead of the clear knowledge that it can not be attained and the pathos it do generates in them is also present. Anyway, the dream retains. That is why I think the depiction of beautiful and neat and healthy landscapes of rural life or mountain springs with woods is one of the most recurring types among the Kolkata rickshaw paintings. I have found the landscapes with a river and a boat in particular in almost every landscape. In fact, a landscape is incomplete without a river with a boat and the boatman in it. The Geographic and Geological facts can sure be a reason and it had been known that many of my subjects traditionally were boatmen or fishermen when they or their forefathers stayed in their villages. So the realization of mine about the mass nostalgia seems stronger. Another source is there. Some of these people had said that they had had the Baul songs in mind while depicting the pictures of stormy river or ocean and the boat with the helpless boatman. This Bhaba Samudram is nothing but the symbol of the life of the rickshaw puller. River and Ocean are two common symbols in every obscure religious cult of Bengal and many of my subjects are disciples of these cults, mainly Sahajiya Baishnabas and other. So the presence of subaltern is being felt in thus way on the rear side of rickshaws too. Very often it can be seen that an Urban landscape has been drawn on a rickshaw and if be it is surely the kind of pictures that do carry a sense of motion just as a picture of a moving train through skyscrapers or fast moving modern cars in four lane highways. Anyway it surely must be depiction of something which is more fast and fabulous than the vehicle the man drives. Thus it becomes a kind of wish fulfillment for the man and does give us a hint about the dream he nurtures in the deep of his heart. Other than these pictures are some which have urban connection simply have something grotesque in their nature. Thus the picture of 9/11 terror or a bus falling off a bridge is popular among these people. It has a nature of Folk-Journalism too. But it is a different topic and now it seems enough . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 22:36:20 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 13:06:20 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <46DC233E.8050400@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> <46DBCCC5.9050606@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709030324r6a468e0bt23cab18bdc068365@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709030338t96f558l22e0bf53a311de8d@mail.gmail.com> <46DC233E.8050400@sarai.net> Message-ID: <46DC3F0C.6030202@googlemail.com> Shuddha, Is it possible that Yasin Malik's apology amounts, at least in part, to playing to the gallery - to international "progressive" opinion through the wonderful opportunity presented by the World Social Forum - just as the Army's initiatives "to win the hearts and minds" of the people of Kashmir are, at least in part, playing to the gallery - to Kashmiris, as well as to Western Governments that make noises about human rights abuse in Kashmir while doing the same in places where they deploy their own forces? Now, if that is not a long and eminently unreadable sentence, I do not know what is. Apologies, but this one is from the heart. Tapas Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Pawan, > However, I have heard Yasin Malik offer a regret and an apology for what > happenned in Kashmir to the Pandits. And since such a statement was > given at a public forum, at the World Social Forum in Mumbai I cannot, > and will not disregard it, (incidentally there is a reader list thread > of a discussion between me and Zainab on this issue, where again, issues > to do with freedom of expression are raised), And once again, I > reiterate, I have not heard any Indain Nationalist offer such an > unconditional apology to the people of Kashmir, and until that happens, > Yasin Malik, well, will have a better score card in the apology > olympics. Pardon my flippant tone, but I do think apologies are > important here. And no matter what I think or do not think of Yasin > Malik, his apology will stand as a significant testimonial that we > cannot ignore. > > To the best of my knowledge, Bitta Karatey has served time in prison > from 1990 to October 2006, which is a total of 16 years in Prison. He is > out at the moment on conditional bail, while trial proceedings continue. > If he is found guilty of homicide in a free and fair trial, he should > undoubtedly serve the time in prison that is necessary. I am not, like > Rashneek, a believer in Capital Punishment, and I will not advocate > capital punishment. > > Yasin Malik has had more several spells in prison, the first began when > he was detained for one year under the Public Safety Act in 1987, he was > later detained for seven years, including a long spell in Jodhpur > Central Jail. Again, if he, or any other person is found guilty in a > free and fair trial of the homicide of non combatants then they should > serve prison sentences for that offence. > > As for the deaths of Indian State and Armed Forces Personnel. Let me > make my position clear. I am not a votary of pursuing politics by > violence, no matter who does it. Not because I have a moral position vis > a vis violence, but because I believe that the strategy of terror, no > matter who pursues it, invariably leads to secretive, un-accountable and > un-democratic politics, which leads to popular movements being corrupted > and infiltrated by the very forces that they are opposing. I think this > has happenned in Kashmir, and it happenned both because of the > machinations of the Indian state and the political immaturity of the pro > Azadi 'tanzeems' in Jammu and Kashmir, and in the Kashmiri diaspora. > > However, having said that, I recognize that Kashmir is a place that > actually is in the midst of a protracted armed conflict, with a very > powerful state imposing its will on a population on the basis of its > military might.Let us not forget, that people like Yasin Malik made > every effort to enter the peaceful, democratic, electoral process. Yasin > Malik was a young election agent in the fatally rigged election in Jammu > and Kashmir of 1987. > > It is the Indian State's sustained and continuing refusal to engage with > the democratic aspirations and politics in Kashmir, that is primarily > responsible for leading these young men (young at that time) towards > militancy. Militancy for many of them was, and remains, a flawed, last > option, but it was and is the only option offered to them by the > Government of India. > > The first guns to be raised in Kashmir, in 1988, were not of the > 'militants', but of the CRPF, when an ordinary protest against an > electricity failure on a cold winter night in 1988 turned into a bloodbath. > > This occurred before a single Pandit was killed. The first target of > militancy were not Pandits, but political party personnel associated > with a corrupt administration imposed, not through elections, but > through fraud. You forget that the first targets are in fact political > workers of the National Conference, beginning with the well known > assasination of a block president of the National Conference, a man > called Yusuf Halwai on the 21st of August, 1988. This is part of the > historical record. > > The second assasination is of Tika Lal Taploo, the first Pandit to be > attacked, on the 14th of September, 1988, not because he is a Pandit, > but because he is J&K state BJP president, in the unlikely event of the > BJP having a Muslim state president in J&K, I am sure it is he who would > have been the target. This is followed by the assasination of Justice > Ganjoo, remembered for handing down the death sentence on Maqbool Butt. > Again, had the judge been a Muslim, he would have been a target. > > Then, after contiuning harsh reprisals by the state armed forces, come > the selective assasinations of high ranking government servants and > political figures, in which Muslims far outnumber Pandits. Several pro > Azadi political figures are also killed in assasinations at this time, > including Mirwaiz Farooq. By this time, it is quite unclear as to which > agencies are involved, whom they owe alleigance to (pro Azadi elements, > Pro Pakistan elements, agent provocateurs acting under orders from > Indian intelligence agents - and with people switching patronage quite > rapidly in a murky shadow play that continues in Kashmir, where a > 'militant' may be working for several different, antagonistic forces, > all at once) in how many killings, targetting whom. > > I am deliberately here not detailing the history of massacres of unarmed > crowds by Indian armed forces, including the famous Gawakadal Massacre > on Gawakadal Bridge in Srinagar on January 20, 1990. > > If, however, as in any armed conflict, or occupation, the personnel of > the armed services, and the echelons of the state of the occupying power > get targetted by elements in the population who are resisting that > occupation, I cannot but see that violence as a measure taken by a > population to defend itself against the occupation. A measure whose > political consequences may actually, tragically, backfire on the same > population, through an exponential increase in the violence of that > occupation. As it has done in Kashmir. > > As for the harrassment or violence to the persons or property of Pandits > that occurred in the valley in the immediate period after 1989, I have > no hesitation in condemning it, un-equivocally, no matter who did it. > And it is upto those who conducted that violence to apologize for it, > not me. > > I do know however, as has been shown in the dark and murky history of > the Chattisinghpura massacre, that elements close to state power did > enter the ranks of militants, or masqueraded as militants, and > deliberately carried out some, (not all) of these massacres, in a well > proven strategy to produce and sustain a climate of tension, and to > persuade the Pandits to leave Kashmir. The experience of the > infiltration, masquerade and creation of the spectacle of 'Red Terror' > in the nineteen eighties and before in Italy, Belgium and elsewhere in > Europe, under Operation Gladio, or the measured that have been used > often in Turkey vis a vis the insurgency in Kurdistan, or the Israeli > secret agencies role in the early days of Hamas, which are all well > documented, and some of which I have written about elsewhere, are > indicative of this process. The Indian state is not alone in pursuing > these tactics. > > So, I am not confident that all the attacks on Pandits that happenned, > such as those perpetrated by the groups who later became identified as > 'Ikhwanis' were not also engineered by what I have called the 'deep > state' in India. > > For a fuller account of the 'Ikhwanis' and their activities please see > > A 'Human Rights Watch' Report of May 1996, Vol 8. No.4 (C) > http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1996/ > > I will quote here only one statement from this report which says - > > "Many incidents of violence in Kashmir go unattributed and unpunished. > The impunity enjoyed by the security forces for a wide range of abuses, > and the murderous internecine battles among the various militant groups > has created a climate of violence in which murder has become routine. By > creating its own militias to fight the militant groups, India has > fostered conditions bordering on anarchy in Kashmir. In many cases, it > is impossible to know whether militants or state-sponsored paramilitary > groups are behind particular acts of violence." > > Clearly, we need a fuller account of the events of the shadowy 1989 and > post 1989 history of Kashmir before we begin apportioning blame for the > attacks on Pandits. As of now, the secrecy that shrouds the Indian > state's operations in Kashmir makes that difficult. > > One thing is clear, the Indian state inflicted enormous violence on non > combatants in Kashmir from 1989 onwards. Would you now agree, Pawan, > that for this violence, it needs to be held accountable, in terms that > have been laid down in international law, as has happenned in Argentina > and Central Africa, under the general category of 'Crimes against Humanity'? > > Let me finally state something quite simple. I do not care, whether, > tomorrow, Kashmir becomes independent, stays with India, or is absorbed > by Pakistan, or becomes part of some confederation of future Central > Asian states, or becomes part of some joint arrangement between India > and Pakistan. Whether the future rulers of Kashmir come from the > Hurriyet, the JKLF, the National Conference, Panun Kashmir or some long > lost descendent of Zainal Abedin, or Lalitaditya is of no concern to > me.I hold no brief for any aspirant to power. > > It is actually not up to me to care which flags, or how many flags, or > which combination of flags flies in Kashmir. It is upto the people of > Kashmir, and I am constrained to respect whatever they choose, even if I > am not in agreement with it. I am not a Kashmiri, I do not live in > Kashmir. All I care about is, that whatever happens should have the > consent of the majority of people who are Kashmiris and live in Kashmir, > and that this consent should be ascertained by free and fair means in a > manner that is transparent to the international community. > > I do however care about the fact that as an Indian citizen, the > continued occupation of the Indian occupied part of Kashmir, happens in > my name, without either my consent (and there are many like me) or the > consent of the people so occupied. Hence, I, and all Indian citizens are > being made complicit in this brutal occupation, unless we take a stand > to the contrary. That is what I am doing. I am not interested in being > made party to this continuing state of violence. > > I think that relationships between people in Kashmir and the rest of > South Asia, which includes all of us who live in India can become > normal, mutually affirming, generous and productive, if all Kashmiris > (without exception) are allowed a say in what their future will be. As > someone who is not a nationalist, I have no interest in providing the > blueprint of a future Kashmiri nation state, or even endorsing a > possible future Kashmiri nation state, but I do have an interest in > trying to ensure that all and any people be free to choose their own > destiny, and choose their own version of disaster or paradise, as they > see fit, especially when the possibility of that choice is made > difficult by a policy of rule that implicates me, as a citizen/subject > of this Republic. > > I know that the first condition of that situation is a withdrawal of the > armed forces of the Indian Republic from the Indian occupied part of > Jammu and Kashmir and the withdrawal of the armed forces of the Islamic > Republic of Pakistan from the territory held by them since 1948. What > follows after this, is anyone's guess, and should be the subject of > creative political imaginations, but examples as banal and diverse as > the recent histories of places as far flung as Bosnia-Herzegovina, > Northern Ireland and East Timor do suggest that a variety of workable > options can be found, which need not necessarily violate the consent of > the local populations. What solutions are found in the interim, is again > something that the people of Kashmir should be the first and last > arbiters of. > > I hope I have made myself clear on this score. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Shuddha , >> >> Since I have answered you , I wish you too have an answer for these two >> questions of mine >> >> 1. Do you condemn Yasin malik and his likes like Bitta karate for their >> killings of Kashmiri pandit and Indian armed personels and do you want him >> to be bought to justice ? >> >> 2. Do you condemn the killings of minorties in Kashmir ? >> >> In your own words "These are very simple question, and it has two very >> simple answers,either yes, or no. The maybe option does not exist,." >> >> Waiting for a simple answer.......Hope you do what you preach. >> >> Lastly , a bit of advise . Do not call Kashmir as "Occupied Kashmir" . >> >> Pawan Durani >> >> >> On 9/3/07, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>> Dear Sen , >>> >>> I belong to a community which has no history of violence. I belong to a >>> community which has never even picked up a stone to throw at somebody, leave >>> aside knives and guns. >>> >>> As a Kashmiri Hindu and as a responsible Indian , i do grieve at any >>> innocent life which is lost, whether it is in Kashmir , Darfur or >>> Afghanistan.And this is not a ststement I am giving you , this i told in >>> an interview to BBC & CNN -IBN even when we were protesting against Yasin >>> Malik when he sat with the families of missing people in Delhi. >>> >>> To a father, when his child dies, the future dies; to a child, when his >>> parents die, the past dies ; to a kashmiri when any innocent dies ; the >>> peace dies. >>> >>> IRegards >>> >>> Pawan Durani >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From adityarajkaul at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 23:49:38 2007 From: adityarajkaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 23:49:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Invitation: "Kashmir Chapter" at IGNCA Message-ID: It is a matter of pleasure to know that *Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts (IGNCA)* has started a "Kashmir Chapter". It will work for the upliftment of Cultural Heritage in Jammu Kashmir and Ladakh. We are thankful to Dr. Kapila Vatsayan and Dr. K.K. Chakravorty for initiating this idea. We are also thankful to Dr. G.L. Badam, Dr. Advaitavadni Kaul, Mr. Virendar Bangroo and Dr. B.L. Malla for giving it the practical shape. They have already organized some meetings and programmes under this chapter. On 7th September, 2007, *"Kashmir Chapter" *of IGNCA is going to organize a programme in memory of great filmmaker *Pandit* *Arun Kaul* who was very keen to see Kashmir Chapter in IGNCA flourish. After paying homage to the great luminary; a film produced and directed by Pandit Arun Kaul is also going to be screened. Further, scholars of Kashmir will have a meeting to plan out and deliberate on the future strategy for this chapter. * Venue*: Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts (IGNCA), 5 Rajendra Prasad Road (entry from Man Singh Road), New Delhi * Date*: 7th September, 2007 * Time*: 4:00pm You are all cordially invited to participate in the programme. * * *P.S. – I'm sending this message on behalf of Dr. G.L. Badam, IGNCA.* * * *Thanks* * * *-- Aditya Raj Kaul Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 23:51:20 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 23:51:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Reply To Shuddha ( Yasin Sahibs Fan ) Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709031121o383b8c26uf49bfcc69edd6212@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddhabrata , NamaskAr I was expecting you to be honest in your reply, but that was not to be . My folly. You have clearly chosen words which doesn't give an answer in Yes or NO , as you had demanded from me . But like others I know where your priority and commitment lies. Anyways , I would like to reply to your mail , which i find is full of half backed anecdotes and little knowledge. The reason I am replying to it is for not the reason to make you understand but to at least attempt to block the poison your half knowledge may spread.You may try to correct yourself by verifying the facts , and you would ...only if you have the courage to. 1.You have written "And no matter what I think or do not think of Yasin Malik, his apology will stand as a significant testimonial that we cannot ignore." Suddha , name a criminal who doesnt offer an apology . Is apology reason enough to forgive him and not re-start the criminal proceedings against him ? Would his apology change the lives of those 6 Indian Airforce personals bereaved family ? Would Yasin Maliks apology give education to those small children who lost the only earning family member of their family defending this Nation ? I am sure you would come up with some absurd excuse in defence of a terrorist . And i would like to read your next excuse . Though your reply doesn't come in Yes or No , but you demand so ! Though you do say that Bitta Karate should serve his term in prison if a * fair trial* is given to him , i fail to see you saying the same for Yasin Malik. You seem to be so much in love with this terrorist Yasin Malik , that i have this gut feeling that you must have replaced "Neta Ji Subhash Ji" picture with that of Yasin at your home . God Bless you and your wisdom. 2. The first political person killed was surely Yusuf Halwai , a national Confrence worker and block president . But much before taploo Ji the Mahant of Vicharnag Shrine, Pandit Keshav Nath, was brutally murdered on 9th December, 1988.But we are not here to discuss who was killed first. As i said , any innocent who was killed is tragedy for Kashmir. But where you are wrong is that Tikka Lal Taploo was killed for the sole reason of being Vice President of BJP . I am sure this must have been told to you by your "Yasin Sahib", for till date we all believed that he was killed for being one of the most prominent Kashmiri pandit in Habba Kadal area , and whom all KP's respected . For this I must trust and believe in you as your source of this information may be straight from Horses mouth. I take this from you. 3. You said Justice Ganjoo was killed for he had ordered death sentence to Maqbool Butt, the founder of JKLF and in a way you probably justify the killing as well. However what you miss out is that there were Kashmiri Muslim witness in this case . People who took an oath in court and identified him for his crimes. All of them were Muslims , and interestingly non of them has been harmed in any way during these years of "Jashn E Azadi" . You still would not call the killings of Kashmiri Pandits as selective. 4. And what about the much-maligned Gaw Kadal incident? Is it not shocking that none of the writers of the Gaw Kadalstory makes it clear that the area had been declareld under curfew and hundreds of armed people were about to attack a police post. And it was that night which made lacks of Kashmiri Pandits homeless. 5. Yasin Malik did not give up gun for becoming a saint . He did it because he had his political ambitions . Yasin mali was once an election agent of Syed Salahuddin ,Supreme Commander of Hizbul Mujahiddin. Syed Salahuddin used to be political guru of Yasin Malik till syed Salahuddin lost his election as candidate of Muslim United Front . Later when Pakistan created hundreds of organisations and Hizbul was given more power by Pakistan, JKLF felt the heat and had to retreat. That was partially forced by pakistan and I believe Indian agencies may have done some smart work with Yasin . Why dont you ask your Yasin Sahib , what the fact is ? 6.Suddhu your mail is full of self contradiction . In one line you write " have no interest in providing the blueprint of a future Kashmiri nation state, or even endorsing a possible future Kashmiri nation state" and immediately in next paragraph you write"first condition of that situation is a withdrawal of the armed forces of the Indian Republic from the Indian occupied part of Jammu and Kashmir and the withdrawal of the armed forces of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan from the territory held by them since 1948 ." Why are you so confused Shuddha ? Suddha , I would have imagined these things coming from Yasir , but coming from someone from land of Bankim Chandra and Netaji Bose , it sends me shivers. Suddha , you have half information . Spend some evenings with us . I am sure you would have a different perspective. Come out of Slave Syndrome. You are no longer live in Bangladesh . I would advise you that everyday you pray to God these words " Asato Ma sadgamaya Tamaso Ma Jyotirgamaya." . You are in dire need of this. Regards Pawan Durani From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Sep 4 00:08:21 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 00:08:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <46DC3F0C.6030202@googlemail.com> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> <46DBCCC5.9050606@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709030324r6a468e0bt23cab18bdc068365@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709030338t96f558l22e0bf53a311de8d@mail.gmail.com> <46DC233E.8050400@sarai.net> <46DC3F0C.6030202@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <46DC549D.4010000@sarai.net> Dear Tapas, I do not disagree with you at all. In fact you have said what I would have wanted to say much better than I could have said it, and with greater clarity than I could muster. My hunches in this matter are not far from what you say. But that is my personal opinion. That being said, neither you, nor I, can read into the interiority of another person, so judgements about motive, are at best, speculative, if not borne out by the unfolding of actual events, even if they are speculative in an informed sense. So, in a sense, the jury is out on that statement, it depends on what we in hindustani call 'aage aage hota hai kya'. (on what lies ahead) There is a public record, and Yasin Malik has made some statements on the public recrod. That is a fact. The absence of a corresponding apology from the 'other side' is also a fact. What prompted Yasin Malik to make that statement, whom he made that statement for, which gallery he was playing to - all these are matters of speculation. And I am not interested in either extolling or rubisshing him. In fact I am not interested in him, or his motives, at all. Going by the same logic. The representatives of the Indian state, too, could have, for the same set of audiences, that you point to, made a similar gesture. Instead, all that we have on record is Mufti's abysmal failure of the so called 'healing touch' policy, and Vajpayee's tepid response to it. I hold, as I said, no brief for any one in the murky waters of Kashmir, least of all for Yasin Malik, but at least, in terms of savvy realpolitik (whichI repeat is not a substantive political judgement) he was, at the time when he made that declaration, ahead of his peers in New Delhi. I hope I have made myself abundantly clear now. regards Shuddha Tapas Ray wrote: > Shuddha, > > Is it possible that Yasin Malik's apology amounts, at least in part, to > playing to the gallery - to international "progressive" opinion through > the wonderful opportunity presented by the World Social Forum - just as > the Army's initiatives "to win the hearts and minds" of the people of > Kashmir are, at least in part, playing to the gallery - to Kashmiris, as > well as to Western Governments that make noises about human rights abuse > in Kashmir while doing the same in places where they deploy their own > forces? > > Now, if that is not a long and eminently unreadable sentence, I do not > know what is. Apologies, but this one is from the heart. > > Tapas > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >>Dear Pawan, > > >>However, I have heard Yasin Malik offer a regret and an apology for what >>happenned in Kashmir to the Pandits. And since such a statement was >>given at a public forum, at the World Social Forum in Mumbai I cannot, >>and will not disregard it, (incidentally there is a reader list thread >>of a discussion between me and Zainab on this issue, where again, issues >>to do with freedom of expression are raised), And once again, I >>reiterate, I have not heard any Indain Nationalist offer such an >>unconditional apology to the people of Kashmir, and until that happens, >>Yasin Malik, well, will have a better score card in the apology >>olympics. Pardon my flippant tone, but I do think apologies are >>important here. And no matter what I think or do not think of Yasin >>Malik, his apology will stand as a significant testimonial that we >>cannot ignore. >> >>To the best of my knowledge, Bitta Karatey has served time in prison >>from 1990 to October 2006, which is a total of 16 years in Prison. He is >>out at the moment on conditional bail, while trial proceedings continue. >>If he is found guilty of homicide in a free and fair trial, he should >>undoubtedly serve the time in prison that is necessary. I am not, like >>Rashneek, a believer in Capital Punishment, and I will not advocate >>capital punishment. >> >>Yasin Malik has had more several spells in prison, the first began when >>he was detained for one year under the Public Safety Act in 1987, he was >>later detained for seven years, including a long spell in Jodhpur >>Central Jail. Again, if he, or any other person is found guilty in a >>free and fair trial of the homicide of non combatants then they should >>serve prison sentences for that offence. >> >>As for the deaths of Indian State and Armed Forces Personnel. Let me >>make my position clear. I am not a votary of pursuing politics by >>violence, no matter who does it. Not because I have a moral position vis >>a vis violence, but because I believe that the strategy of terror, no >>matter who pursues it, invariably leads to secretive, un-accountable and >>un-democratic politics, which leads to popular movements being corrupted >>and infiltrated by the very forces that they are opposing. I think this >>has happenned in Kashmir, and it happenned both because of the >>machinations of the Indian state and the political immaturity of the pro >>Azadi 'tanzeems' in Jammu and Kashmir, and in the Kashmiri diaspora. >> >>However, having said that, I recognize that Kashmir is a place that >>actually is in the midst of a protracted armed conflict, with a very >>powerful state imposing its will on a population on the basis of its >>military might.Let us not forget, that people like Yasin Malik made >>every effort to enter the peaceful, democratic, electoral process. Yasin >>Malik was a young election agent in the fatally rigged election in Jammu >>and Kashmir of 1987. >> >>It is the Indian State's sustained and continuing refusal to engage with >>the democratic aspirations and politics in Kashmir, that is primarily >>responsible for leading these young men (young at that time) towards >>militancy. Militancy for many of them was, and remains, a flawed, last >>option, but it was and is the only option offered to them by the >>Government of India. >> >>The first guns to be raised in Kashmir, in 1988, were not of the >>'militants', but of the CRPF, when an ordinary protest against an >>electricity failure on a cold winter night in 1988 turned into a bloodbath. >> >>This occurred before a single Pandit was killed. The first target of >>militancy were not Pandits, but political party personnel associated >>with a corrupt administration imposed, not through elections, but >>through fraud. You forget that the first targets are in fact political >>workers of the National Conference, beginning with the well known >>assasination of a block president of the National Conference, a man >>called Yusuf Halwai on the 21st of August, 1988. This is part of the >>historical record. >> >>The second assasination is of Tika Lal Taploo, the first Pandit to be >>attacked, on the 14th of September, 1988, not because he is a Pandit, >>but because he is J&K state BJP president, in the unlikely event of the >>BJP having a Muslim state president in J&K, I am sure it is he who would >>have been the target. This is followed by the assasination of Justice >>Ganjoo, remembered for handing down the death sentence on Maqbool Butt. >>Again, had the judge been a Muslim, he would have been a target. >> >>Then, after contiuning harsh reprisals by the state armed forces, come >>the selective assasinations of high ranking government servants and >>political figures, in which Muslims far outnumber Pandits. Several pro >>Azadi political figures are also killed in assasinations at this time, >>including Mirwaiz Farooq. By this time, it is quite unclear as to which >>agencies are involved, whom they owe alleigance to (pro Azadi elements, >>Pro Pakistan elements, agent provocateurs acting under orders from >>Indian intelligence agents - and with people switching patronage quite >>rapidly in a murky shadow play that continues in Kashmir, where a >>'militant' may be working for several different, antagonistic forces, >>all at once) in how many killings, targetting whom. >> >>I am deliberately here not detailing the history of massacres of unarmed >>crowds by Indian armed forces, including the famous Gawakadal Massacre >>on Gawakadal Bridge in Srinagar on January 20, 1990. >> >>If, however, as in any armed conflict, or occupation, the personnel of >>the armed services, and the echelons of the state of the occupying power >>get targetted by elements in the population who are resisting that >>occupation, I cannot but see that violence as a measure taken by a >>population to defend itself against the occupation. A measure whose >>political consequences may actually, tragically, backfire on the same >>population, through an exponential increase in the violence of that >>occupation. As it has done in Kashmir. >> >>As for the harrassment or violence to the persons or property of Pandits >>that occurred in the valley in the immediate period after 1989, I have >>no hesitation in condemning it, un-equivocally, no matter who did it. >>And it is upto those who conducted that violence to apologize for it, >>not me. >> >>I do know however, as has been shown in the dark and murky history of >>the Chattisinghpura massacre, that elements close to state power did >>enter the ranks of militants, or masqueraded as militants, and >>deliberately carried out some, (not all) of these massacres, in a well >>proven strategy to produce and sustain a climate of tension, and to >>persuade the Pandits to leave Kashmir. The experience of the >>infiltration, masquerade and creation of the spectacle of 'Red Terror' >>in the nineteen eighties and before in Italy, Belgium and elsewhere in >>Europe, under Operation Gladio, or the measured that have been used >>often in Turkey vis a vis the insurgency in Kurdistan, or the Israeli >>secret agencies role in the early days of Hamas, which are all well >>documented, and some of which I have written about elsewhere, are >>indicative of this process. The Indian state is not alone in pursuing >>these tactics. >> >>So, I am not confident that all the attacks on Pandits that happenned, >>such as those perpetrated by the groups who later became identified as >>'Ikhwanis' were not also engineered by what I have called the 'deep >>state' in India. >> >>For a fuller account of the 'Ikhwanis' and their activities please see >> >>A 'Human Rights Watch' Report of May 1996, Vol 8. No.4 (C) >>http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1996/ >> >>I will quote here only one statement from this report which says - >> >>"Many incidents of violence in Kashmir go unattributed and unpunished. >>The impunity enjoyed by the security forces for a wide range of abuses, >>and the murderous internecine battles among the various militant groups >>has created a climate of violence in which murder has become routine. By >>creating its own militias to fight the militant groups, India has >>fostered conditions bordering on anarchy in Kashmir. In many cases, it >>is impossible to know whether militants or state-sponsored paramilitary >>groups are behind particular acts of violence." >> >>Clearly, we need a fuller account of the events of the shadowy 1989 and >>post 1989 history of Kashmir before we begin apportioning blame for the >>attacks on Pandits. As of now, the secrecy that shrouds the Indian >>state's operations in Kashmir makes that difficult. >> >>One thing is clear, the Indian state inflicted enormous violence on non >>combatants in Kashmir from 1989 onwards. Would you now agree, Pawan, >>that for this violence, it needs to be held accountable, in terms that >>have been laid down in international law, as has happenned in Argentina >>and Central Africa, under the general category of 'Crimes against Humanity'? >> >>Let me finally state something quite simple. I do not care, whether, >>tomorrow, Kashmir becomes independent, stays with India, or is absorbed >>by Pakistan, or becomes part of some confederation of future Central >>Asian states, or becomes part of some joint arrangement between India >>and Pakistan. Whether the future rulers of Kashmir come from the >>Hurriyet, the JKLF, the National Conference, Panun Kashmir or some long >>lost descendent of Zainal Abedin, or Lalitaditya is of no concern to >>me.I hold no brief for any aspirant to power. >> >>It is actually not up to me to care which flags, or how many flags, or >>which combination of flags flies in Kashmir. It is upto the people of >>Kashmir, and I am constrained to respect whatever they choose, even if I >>am not in agreement with it. I am not a Kashmiri, I do not live in >>Kashmir. All I care about is, that whatever happens should have the >>consent of the majority of people who are Kashmiris and live in Kashmir, >>and that this consent should be ascertained by free and fair means in a >>manner that is transparent to the international community. >> >>I do however care about the fact that as an Indian citizen, the >>continued occupation of the Indian occupied part of Kashmir, happens in >>my name, without either my consent (and there are many like me) or the >>consent of the people so occupied. Hence, I, and all Indian citizens are >>being made complicit in this brutal occupation, unless we take a stand >>to the contrary. That is what I am doing. I am not interested in being >>made party to this continuing state of violence. >> >>I think that relationships between people in Kashmir and the rest of >>South Asia, which includes all of us who live in India can become >>normal, mutually affirming, generous and productive, if all Kashmiris >>(without exception) are allowed a say in what their future will be. As >>someone who is not a nationalist, I have no interest in providing the >>blueprint of a future Kashmiri nation state, or even endorsing a >>possible future Kashmiri nation state, but I do have an interest in >>trying to ensure that all and any people be free to choose their own >>destiny, and choose their own version of disaster or paradise, as they >>see fit, especially when the possibility of that choice is made >>difficult by a policy of rule that implicates me, as a citizen/subject >>of this Republic. >> >>I know that the first condition of that situation is a withdrawal of the >>armed forces of the Indian Republic from the Indian occupied part of >>Jammu and Kashmir and the withdrawal of the armed forces of the Islamic >>Republic of Pakistan from the territory held by them since 1948. What >>follows after this, is anyone's guess, and should be the subject of >>creative political imaginations, but examples as banal and diverse as >>the recent histories of places as far flung as Bosnia-Herzegovina, >>Northern Ireland and East Timor do suggest that a variety of workable >>options can be found, which need not necessarily violate the consent of >>the local populations. What solutions are found in the interim, is again >>something that the people of Kashmir should be the first and last >>arbiters of. >> >>I hope I have made myself clear on this score. >> >>regards >> >>Shuddha >> >> >> >> >>Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >>>Shuddha , >>> >>>Since I have answered you , I wish you too have an answer for these two >>>questions of mine >>> >>>1. Do you condemn Yasin malik and his likes like Bitta karate for their >>>killings of Kashmiri pandit and Indian armed personels and do you want him >>>to be bought to justice ? >>> >>>2. Do you condemn the killings of minorties in Kashmir ? >>> >>>In your own words "These are very simple question, and it has two very >>>simple answers,either yes, or no. The maybe option does not exist,." >>> >>>Waiting for a simple answer.......Hope you do what you preach. >>> >>>Lastly , a bit of advise . Do not call Kashmir as "Occupied Kashmir" . >>> >>>Pawan Durani >>> >>> >>>On 9/3/07, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Dear Sen , >>>> >>>>I belong to a community which has no history of violence. I belong to a >>>>community which has never even picked up a stone to throw at somebody, leave >>>>aside knives and guns. >>>> >>>>As a Kashmiri Hindu and as a responsible Indian , i do grieve at any >>>>innocent life which is lost, whether it is in Kashmir , Darfur or >>>>Afghanistan.And this is not a ststement I am giving you , this i told in >>>>an interview to BBC & CNN -IBN even when we were protesting against Yasin >>>>Malik when he sat with the families of missing people in Delhi. >>>> >>>>To a father, when his child dies, the future dies; to a child, when his >>>>parents die, the past dies ; to a kashmiri when any innocent dies ; the >>>>peace dies. >>>> >>>>IRegards >>>> >>>>Pawan Durani >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>_________________________________________ >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>Critiques & Collaborations >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 01:17:44 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 01:47:44 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Slavering Message-ID: From: "Pawan Durani" >Suddha...Come out of Slave Syndrome. You are no longer live in Bangladesh . Dear Pawan, Those of us who still live in Bangladesh, we are nobody's slaves. Least of all yours. And neither is Suddha (your slave, I mean). -Naeem Mohaiemen From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Sep 4 02:51:57 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 02:51:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Reply To Shuddha ( Yasin Sahibs Fan ) In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709031121o383b8c26uf49bfcc69edd6212@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709031121o383b8c26uf49bfcc69edd6212@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DC7AF5.7080201@sarai.net> Dear Pawan, At least do me the courtesy of reading my mail. I had written - and I repeat, ad nauseam, because you guys do not read through a mail. "Yasin Malik has had more several spells in prison, the first began when he was detained for one year under the Public Safety Act in 1987, he was later detained for seven years, including a long spell in Jodhpur Central Jail. Again, if *he, or any other person* is found guilty in a free and fair trial of the homicide of non combatants then they should serve prison sentences for that offence." Let me now qualify this further, if anyone, whether it is Yasin Malik or Santa Claus, or you, or me, or my father, that is what the "he or any other person" in the above paragraph means - is found guilty of homicide in a free and fair trial, they should be punished for it, with a prison term if need be, as per the provisions of a criminal procedure code. But before we condemn anyone to prison, they have to have the advantage of a properly conducted fair trial. That is a simple civilized norm. Now, please understand, I do not have any need for any leaders or heroes, neither Yasin Malik, nor Subhash Chandra Bose, nor Bankim Chandra. thanks, is that enough, can we go to bed now. Shuddha Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Shuddhabrata , > > NamaskAr > > I was expecting you to be honest in your reply, but that was not to be . My > folly. > > You have clearly chosen words which doesn't give an answer in Yes or NO , as > you had demanded from me . But like others I know where your priority and > commitment lies. > > Anyways , I would like to reply to your mail , which i find is full of half > backed anecdotes and little knowledge. The reason I am replying to it is for > not the reason to make you understand but to at least attempt to block the > poison your half knowledge may spread.You may try to correct yourself by > verifying the facts , and you would ...only if you have the courage to. > > 1.You have written > > "And no matter what I think or do not think > of Yasin Malik, his apology will stand as a significant testimonial that we > cannot ignore." > > Suddha , name a criminal who doesnt offer an apology . Is apology reason > enough to forgive him and not re-start the criminal proceedings against him > ? Would his apology change the lives of those 6 Indian Airforce personals > bereaved family ? Would Yasin Maliks apology give education to those small > children who lost the only earning family member of their family defending > this Nation ? > > I am sure you would come up with some absurd excuse in defence of a > terrorist . And i would like to read your next excuse . Though your reply > doesn't come in Yes or No , but you demand so ! Though you do say that Bitta > Karate should serve his term in prison if a * fair trial* is given to him , > i fail to see you saying the same for Yasin Malik. You seem to be so much in > love with this terrorist Yasin Malik , that i have this gut feeling that you > must have replaced "Neta Ji Subhash Ji" picture with that of Yasin at your > home . > > God Bless you and your wisdom. > > 2. The first political person killed was surely Yusuf Halwai , a national > Confrence worker and block president . But much before taploo Ji the Mahant > of Vicharnag Shrine, Pandit Keshav Nath, was brutally murdered on 9th > December, 1988.But we are not here to discuss who was killed first. As i > said , any innocent who was killed is tragedy for Kashmir. > > But where you are wrong is that Tikka Lal Taploo was killed for the sole > reason of being Vice President of BJP . I am sure this must have been told > to you by your "Yasin Sahib", for till date we all believed that he was > killed for being one of the most prominent Kashmiri pandit in Habba Kadal > area , and whom all KP's respected . For this I must trust and believe in > you as your source of this information may be straight from Horses mouth. I > take this from you. > > > 3. You said Justice Ganjoo was killed for he had ordered death sentence to > Maqbool Butt, the founder of JKLF and in a way you probably justify the > killing as well. However what you miss out is that there were Kashmiri > Muslim witness in this case . People who took an oath in court and > identified him for his crimes. All of them were Muslims , and interestingly > non of them has been harmed in any way during these years of "Jashn E Azadi" > . You still would not call the killings of Kashmiri Pandits as selective. > > 4. And what about the much-maligned Gaw Kadal incident? Is it not shocking > that none of the writers of the Gaw Kadalstory makes it clear that the area > had been declareld under curfew and hundreds of armed people were about to > attack a police post. And it was that night which made lacks of Kashmiri > Pandits homeless. > > 5. Yasin Malik did not give up gun for becoming a saint . He did it because > he had his political ambitions . Yasin mali was once an election agent of > Syed Salahuddin ,Supreme Commander of Hizbul Mujahiddin. Syed Salahuddin > used to be political guru of Yasin Malik till syed Salahuddin lost his > election as candidate of Muslim United Front . Later when Pakistan created > hundreds of organisations and Hizbul was given more power by Pakistan, JKLF > felt the heat and had to retreat. That was partially forced by pakistan and > I believe Indian agencies may have done some smart work with Yasin . Why > dont you ask your Yasin Sahib , what the fact is ? > > 6.Suddhu your mail is full of self contradiction . In one line you write > " have no interest in providing the blueprint of a future Kashmiri nation > state, or even endorsing a possible future Kashmiri nation state" and > immediately in next paragraph you write"first condition of that situation is > a withdrawal of the armed forces of the Indian Republic from the Indian > occupied part of Jammu and Kashmir and the withdrawal of the armed forces of > the Islamic > Republic of Pakistan from the territory held by them since 1948 ." > > Why are you so confused Shuddha ? > > Suddha , I would have imagined these things coming from Yasir , but coming > from someone from land of Bankim Chandra and Netaji Bose , it sends me > shivers. > > Suddha , you have half information . Spend some evenings with us . I am sure > you would have a different perspective. Come out of Slave Syndrome. You are > no longer live in Bangladesh . > > I would advise you that everyday you pray to God these words " Asato Ma > sadgamaya > Tamaso Ma Jyotirgamaya." . You are in dire need of this. > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vrjogi at hotmail.com Tue Sep 4 07:51:04 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:21:04 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house In-Reply-To: <46CFDB16.3010905@gmail.com> References: <46CFDB16.3010905@gmail.com> Message-ID: no i am not suffering from any mental problem, i only tell the truth which psudo secularists can not digest. vedavati > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:02:38 +0530> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> CC: ranjitachaney at gmail.com; checkvivek at gmail.com; ceorahi at gmail.com; swapan55 at usa.net; dr.nikhil.ganjoo at gmail.com; deepikajourno at gmail.com; deepakkannal at gmail.com; aryancool2005 at yahoo.com; nidhi.fotedar at gmail.com; fgautier at sify.com; info at rlfinearts.com; sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in; paramita_gh at yahoo.com; gulla.robin at gmail.com; gauravcops at yahoo.co.uk; iram at sarai.net; vikram.tikko at gmail.com; hksumit at rediffmail.com; harshvph at gmail.com; indersalim at gmail.com; irfan.husain at gmail.com; info at kevinkaul.com; indu.jalali at gmail.com; sandhya176 at sify.com; johnyml at gmail.com; juhidua at gmail.com; jawednaqvi at gmail.com; vivekjas at rediffmail.com; jungleclub at gmail.com; jsandhya at gmail.com; kashmiribard at gmail.com; rkohri at gmail.com; krishenkak at gmail.com; ravikumarkashi at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net; lakhvinder.batolar at ranbaxy.com; maanvini at gmail.com; misrajibhai at yahoo.co.nz; mukulkesavan at hotmail.com; mrsg at vsnl.com; nidhir at ndtv.com; niyetikannal at gmail.com; neeraj_santoshi at rediffmail.com; nicheant at yahoo.co.uk; poojakoul at hotmail.com; romit.zutshi at gmail.com; rajni.tiku at genpact.com> Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house> > Please do not forward anything to me in future. I do not appreciate it.> > For your information, I have already received from Reader-list the mail > you claim was blocked and have forwarded to me offlist.> > I suspect you may be suffering from some type of delusion or paranoia.> > TR> > > Vedavati Jogi wrote:> > i have no alternative but to forward this mail to all of you > > individually as readers list people don't dare to publish my mail.> > i request all of you to please read this correspondance. views expressed > > by people like roger are posing real threat to this country' unity.> > > > vedavati> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > From: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > To: rgdj12 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house> > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:55:48 +0000> > > > pakistan is an enemy so i don't blame them as they are doing what an> > enemy is supposed to do. i am talking against psudoseculars like> > you. nobody has blocked minority advancement in india otherwise> > shahruhk, irfan pathan, zakir hussin, javed akhtar would not have _________________________________________________________________ Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! http://get.live.com/en-ie/messenger/overview From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 08:02:23 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 22:32:23 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house In-Reply-To: References: <46CFDB16.3010905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DCC3B7.3050704@googlemail.com> Well, you claimed that your mail had been blocked by Reader-list, but that was not true! Vedavati Jogi wrote: > no i am not suffering from any mental problem, i only tell the truth which psudo secularists can not digest. > > vedavati > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 10:08:56 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:08:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Slavering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709032138pf26e2edva4ae6d1ac0943cc0@mail.gmail.com> Read this : http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF13.htm http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/5260 http://www.mukto-mona.com/human_rights/ethnic_clensing_Bangladesh.html On 9/4/07, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > From: "Pawan Durani" > > >Suddha...Come out of Slave Syndrome. You are no longer live in Bangladesh > . > > Dear Pawan, > Those of us who still live in Bangladesh, we are nobody's slaves. > Least of all yours. > > And neither is Suddha (your slave, I mean). > > -Naeem Mohaiemen > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 11:34:03 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 23:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shuddha invites Pawan to bed In-Reply-To: <46DC7AF5.7080201@sarai.net> Message-ID: <793959.17522.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: thanks, is that enough, can we go to bed now. Shuddha --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. From pkray11 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 11:37:31 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 15:07:31 +0900 Subject: [Reader-list] CPI(M) on Nuclear Deal Message-ID: <98f331e00709032307r3b5e4006h8b4fb8123813103f@mail.gmail.com> *Sitaram Yechury (Rajya Sabha MP and member, CPI(M) Politburo) on Nuclear Deal* Bashing the Left for its opposition to the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal has, indeed, become the flavour of the month. I have the prerogative to be the sole exception to this among those occupying this column space. While it would be a pleasure to meet the arguments of our detractors, much of the attack on the Left has, unfortunately, been based on age-old prejudices and not reason. A substantial section of the media continues to conduct a malignant disinformation campaign. In this context, I am reminded of the following joke told originally by my maternal uncle. The Pope once decided to send a bishop on a goodwill mission to the US, warning him to be careful of the American media given their reputation. Upon arrival in New York, the bishop, besieged by the media, was asked if his itinerary included a visit to a nightclub. Recollecting the Pope's warning, he dodged the question retorting, "Are there nightclubs in New York?" The next morning, the papers screamed, "Arriving Bishop's first question: Are there nightclubs in New York?" B Raman, a former senior officer of India's intelligence apparatus, slanderously wrote on this page (*The Manchurian candidates*, August 21) that the Left's campaign against India's nuclear deal is "driven by China's concerns". He alleges that I, personally, had forced this government to order the issue of visas to 1,000 Chinese engineers. This allegation bears not an iota of substance, and nothing can be more preposterous. He further wrote how on the walls of Calcutta, the Marxists painted 'China's Chairman is our Chairman' as graffiti. Now, everyone knows that it was the slogan of the Naxalites at the height of their campaign against the Marxists. With such disinformation guiding our intelligence apparatus in the past, it is no wonder that we lost two Prime Ministers to assassins and continue to pay a heavy price due to intelligence lapses, the latest being the recent terrorist blasts in Hyderabad. Thanks to small mercies, this gentleman has now retired. Be that as it may, those who know of the CPI(M)'s birth and history will know that for nearly two decades both the international Communist giants — the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and the Communist Party of China — opposed the CPI(M)'s policies from different perspectives. The CPI(M)'s policy directions are always determined by its own perceptions of what is in the interest of India and its people. Those who are willing to eagerly surrender India's sovereignty to US imperialism will do well to refrain from offering unsolicited advice and certificates of patriotism. If our detractors are worthy of character and substance, then they ought to meet our arguments on their merits, not through perfidy. It was aggressively argued in these very columns that any attempt to cap India's nuclear strategic capabilities will immensely benefit both China and Pakistan. Who, may we ask, is vigorously pursuing this Indo-US nuclear deal which, we are told, will limit India's strategic capacities, thus, providing advantage to our neighbours? Could I, then allege that those advancing this deal are acting at the behest of China and Pakistan? Such slander apart, we are charged with preventing India's energy augmentation by opposing this deal. India's current power generation is 127 gigawatts (gw). At the current rates of GDP growth, this needs to grow to 337 gw by 2016-17. There is no doubt that if this is not achieved, India's pace of development would be severely restricted. The moot question, however, is whether nuclear energy expansion is the only or the best option that we have today? In 2006, 3.9 gw of nuclear power was generated, 3 per cent of India's total power generation. In the most optimistic scenario, after the operationalisation of this deal, this would grow, at best, to 20 gw by 2016, or just over 6 per cent of the projected generation. Further, is nuclear power cost-effective? On the contrary, it is the most expensive option. As compared to coal, it would be one-and-a-half times more expensive. Compared with gas, it is twice as expensive. So is the case with hydro-electricity. Given the abundance of coal reserves in India, the Planning Commission estimates that thermal energy would dominate power generation in India. As far as hydro-electricity is concerned, given the potential of nearly 150 gw, only 33 gw has been installed as of 2006. In addition, over 55,000 MW could be imported from Nepal and Bhutan. The tapping of such huge hydro-potential will not only augment our energy capacities at half the cost of nuclear energy, but will also tame these rivers, which regularly consume the lives of thousands. This year's floods according to the United Nations, are 'unprecedented' in human memory. Thus, the government's argument that the Indo-US nuclear deal is to augment our energy resources sounds untenable. Huge commercial orders running into thousands of crores of rupees for the purchase of nuclear reactors would be placed on the US. The profit bonanza to multinational corporations is there for all to see with the attendant benefits to sections of corporate India. Recollect that for more than three decades the West has not installed new nuclear power reactors. Is India then actually going in for this deal to bolster US economic interests? If the same amount of resources were to be spent on generating power through hydro, thermal, gas, clean non-renewable and solar electricity, India's energy augmentation would be many times higher. Thus, the nuclear deal not only exposes India to greater vulnerability, it drains a huge amount of our scarce resources. Apart from drawing India into the US strategic military alliances in the region like the forthcoming joint military exercises with the US, Japan, Australia and Singapore, and the effort at pressurising India's foreign policy positions, this deal does not even guarantee full and complete access to civilian nuclear technology as assured by the Prime Minister in the Rajya Sabha. In fact, the 123 agreement forbids the transfer of dual-use technologies. The assurances of uninterrupted fuel supplies also break down if the 123 agreement is terminated. The 123 itself explicitly states that the national laws will prevail upon termination, meaning, the Hyde Act. India would be subjected to international safeguards in perpetuity even after the 123 is terminated. These have substantive implications for India's sovereignty in the future. Instead of meeting these issues, a web of fabrications based on so-called extra-territorial loyalties of the Left is woven. It should be remembered that the Left, on many occasions, set the agenda for modern India. Apart from many others, militant peasant struggles at the time of our independence brought the issue of land reforms on to the centrestage. Like also the issue of linguistic re-organisation of the states, through the movements of Vishalandhra, Aikya Kerala and Samyukta Maharashtra. In this current conjuncture in the post-bipolar Cold War world, the natural tendency in international relations is for the movement towards multi-polarity. US imperialism seeks to subvert this by imposing a unipolarity under its tutelage. India's role in the comity of nations will be determined by its championing of multi-polarity and its traditional leadership role of the developing countries. Any alignment with US imperialism to impose unipolarity will dissolve India's distinctiveness in world politics. This is precisely what the Left seeks to prevent in the interests of India and its people. Meet us on our arguments as we return to our beleaguered bishop. Badly bruised by the media, at his first public lecture, he appealed to mediapersons that his repertoire of anecdotes is limited as he comes from a small Italian village, hence, these should not be reported. He was happy that the media agreed. Only to be aghast, the next morning to read, "Bishop tells many stories, all unprintable!" ** *Sitaram Yechury is a Rajya Sabha MP and member, CPI(M) Politburo.* From bhagwati at sarai.net Tue Sep 4 12:03:39 2007 From: bhagwati at sarai.net (bhagwati at sarai.net) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:03:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Etienne Balibar @ DU Message-ID: <46DCFC43.5000808@sarai.net> Scholars for Critical Practice, a small > interdisciplinary group of teachers from Delhi > University, invites you to a lecture by the > distinguished French philosopher, Etienne Balibar, > on Monday, September 17th 2007, at 11 am. > Venue: Auditorium of the Academic Research Centre, > Delhi University (opposite Khalsa College). > > Professor Balibar will speak on his current work in > progress: > "From Internationalism to Cosmopolitics?" > This work is a critical confrontation with the > Marxian legacy, but also involves considerations on > citizenship, universalism and difference. > > Please save the date. > > > > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 12:18:56 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 23:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Caste and marriage system in India Message-ID: <641703.5563.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Vedavati, You Did not answered my 2nd question on caste and marriages in INDIA. Anyway may I know what your husband do? Can I have his email address please? Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 12:21:51 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 23:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: failure notice Message-ID: <988634.83351.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> yes mails to vedavati is being blocked! dont know why??? Note: forwarded message attached. --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Sep 4 12:29:02 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:29:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jewish Petition/Support For H.O.M.E.Y. Mural Message-ID: <46DD0236.6020101@sarai.net> Dear All, I received this request for a petition for something that I think is worthwhile. It may be of interest to some on the list.Since I was asked to forward it widely, I am doing so. regards Shuddha -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Jewish Petition/Support For H.O.M.E.Y. Mural Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:04:27 -0700 From: Susan Greene To: susan greene Please Forward Widely-forgive multiple postings Dear friends and allies, As you may know, the Anti-Defamation League and the Jewish Community Relations Council are asking that the San Francisco Arts Commission force the youth artists of H.O.M.E.Y. to alter or remove the section of their mural that depicts Palestinian experience and resistance. The mural is called: "Solidarity-Breaking Down Barriers" and is located in San Francisco's Mission District on 24th and Capp St. We are writing to ask for Jewish signatures on a petition that: 1) Supports the mural in its entirety, 2) Clearly states that the JCRC and ADL do not speak for all Jews, and 3) As Jews, we support struggles for self-determination and expression. If you are receiving this and are not Jewish, we ask that you please forward to progressive Jews you may know. To read and sign the petition: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/HOMEY_Mural_Support/index.html To view images of the mural and JCRC's Letter to the Art Commission: http://jewishmuralsupport.wordpress.com/ If you feel so moved (Jewish or not) please write your own letter to the Arts Commission! Details on petition site. Many thanks! In solidarity Susan From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue Sep 4 12:56:33 2007 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:26:33 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Caste and marriage system in India In-Reply-To: <641703.5563.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <641703.5563.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <90354F27-DCF6-4417-8E31-75D3F7BE08CB@sarai.net> This is a list for discussion. Personal queries to individuals may be please not asked through the list. It takes years to build and make an intellectual community. It takes a few days to destroy it. Please treat the subscribers with some respect. warmly jeebesh On 04-Sep-07, at 11:48 AM, we wi wrote: > Hi Vedavati, > > You Did not answered my 2nd question on caste and > marriages in INDIA. Anyway may I know what your husband do? Can I > have his email address please? > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > --------------------------------- > Building a website is a piece of cake. > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rashneek at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 12:52:17 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:52:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel In-Reply-To: <46DBF31C.2080705@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70708282131w33239f00k11a3fa236da1071c@mail.gmail.com> <46D9F2B9.1030706@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709022237i5c68fdb2hc302c5b0895de85f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120709022247h11a8b5b5q210b584ebc67b404@mail.gmail.com> <46DBF31C.2080705@sarai.net> Message-ID: <13df7c120709040022l30865ad9x25f33748b4ab88e@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, Sorry for spelling your name wrong.I apologise for the mistake. Nonetheless here we go. I have read Rajiv Sapru's piece in Vitasta.Infact I am a regular subscriber to Vitasta myself.. I may not be as good as you when to comes to using citations but let us get it straight here.Knowledge of history is more important than knowing how to give citations.Here I am sorry but I submit not to embrass you but to qoute truth. Rajatarangni is considered the most credible and authentic source on history of mediveal and ancient Kashmir.Although Mr.Sapru is a nice person but I am afraid he and you both need a crash course on how pieces on History are written.I liked your "cut,copy and paste" job out of koausa website.Mr.Sapru has not substantiated what he has written,there is no source qouted.Like me he seems not to have learned from your enlightened self,about citations. Please read Kalhana's Rajatarangni(Book V-128 to 227) and you will know that Kalhana has no where mentioned that Sankarvarman destroyed Parihaspura.Qouting Mr.Sapru as a source is like qouting me on some Molecular Biology topic of which I can be at best be a student. Learn to qoute from sources which are considered authentic and credible,not mamus,chachus and tayas. As reagrds Buddhism in Kashmir,you must not forget that it was because of kashmiri scholars like Kumarjiv and Nagarjuna that Buddhism reached South East Asia.I would also suggest that you read Dr,Advaitavadini Kaul's post doctoral work "Buddhist Savants of Kashmir"No where has she found any evidence of Hindu kings breaking Buddhist Viharas.The contribution of Kashmiris in spreading of Buddhism is immense and we feel proud of our syncretic contributions to the subcontinent. Now we to go Islam and how it was spread.Of course it would be ideal that you read Jonaraja,Srivara,Prajabhatta and Shuka to know the truth for yourself but since you may have aversion to Brahman scholarship Baharistan-i-Shahi and Tarikh-i-Hassan Khuihami might be the right ones for you.It will take you some time to discover for yourself not just how annihilation of "infidels" was a state policy but how such acts were glorified in the name of Islam.The establishment of Islam in Kashmir and conversion of Rinchan to Islam is itself a testament to that.AgainBaharaistan-i-Shahi would be good source to know how spread of Islam happened.Shah-i-Hmadan's role is partcularly intriguing.In Hamadan no one seems to know anything of him,I have spent months looking for any clues on him and came back as clueless as I had gone to Iran. I have written it in my mail to Wali Arifi(you probably missed it) that I would love to live under a king like Bad-shah.So no questions about it.Infact I have written a column recently where I have compared his rule with that of Lalitaditya and Avantivarman. Now let us to got the Kali Mandir which is a khanqah now.Do you know it was Birbal Kachru who was the first soldier of Kashmir's independence.He lost his entire family to cruel Afghan rulers because he sought help from Sikhs to liberate Kashmir.His family was taken away by the Afghans and he never heard of them again.It was incidentally Birbal Kachru(read History of Kashmiri Pandits by Jia Lal Kilam,he was also a supporter of Independent Kashmir)who persuaded Sikhs not to destory this Khanqah.They wanted to rebuild the Kali temple after destroying the mosque that exists there. Unless the self styled flag bearers recognise the contribution of Hindus to the nationalist movement of Kashmir we would but be puting the cart before the horse.It is time they understand and appreciate that people like Nadim infused kashmiri nationalism into masses they may win Kashmir but only to destroy it. Also please note that after 14th century Kashmir has not produced any great scholar.Compare that to the time when we Kashmir was the seat of learning and in 400 years of cultural renaissance we had Abhinaygupta,Anandvardhana,Bilhana,Kalhana,Sarangdev not to mention thousands of other scholars like Mamat,Vasugupt,Mahimbhatta.I am not mentioning people like Allama,Chakbast,Kunzru and Rushdie here because they prospered elsewhere and not in Kashmir. It is time you dont preach secularism to us.We had till date protected naga temples and shrines and it was us who revered them.IncidentallyNilmatapurana(a vashnavaite purana written in Kashmir) mentions Buddha as one of the re-incarnations of Vishnu.In Kashmir Saivate,Buddhist,Vaishnavite traditions lived and prospered together. I will be glad to learn from you about Bengal's history of which I know little. I again apologise for spelling your name wrong. Hosh Bar Dam,nazar bar kadam dar majlis,dar anjuman Regards Rashneek On 9/3/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Rashneek, > > I have had no no desire to enter into an exhibition wrestling match > about who knows more about the history of ancient and medieval Kashmir > with you. I find the 'my scholarship is better than yours' variety of > exchange tiresome, and not because I am not confident about my > scholarship. I have resisted doing this till now, out of some sympathy > for your commitment to your cause, not because I agree with it. But even > my patience has limits. > > Let me just say that I am more than familiar with the sources you > mention, and with several of the sources of the history of ancient and > medieval Kashmir, not only because I am interested in the history of > Kashmi (which I am) but also because there are remarkable parallels with > the history of ancient and medieval Bengal. > > Both outposts, at either northern end of South Asia, were primarily > Buddhist, used a variant of the Sarada script, and in both places the > Buddhist cultural and social substratum was overwhelmed by the early > medieval brahminical revival, both were spearheads of tantric cults > (Buddhist, Shaivite and Shakta) and both were ruled for long years by > muslim kings, and became overwhelmingly muslim majority areas, not out > of force but due to the way in which sufi orders (often quite syncretic > in their practices) addressed ordinary and lower caste population, in > both areas - a small Hindu upper caste elite that was patronized by > Muslim kings, and in many ways protected by a large mass of muslim > peasantry due to the sheer thickness of day to day ritual obligations, > shared customary practices and other relationships. There would not have > been any Hindus in Bengal or in Kashmir if, the peasant muslim masses of > Bengal and Kashmir had decided that they did not want any Hindus around. > The weight of muslim numbers, in Bengal and in Kashmir, would have been > enough. > > I have also no doubts about the veracity of the texts you mention. > Muslim kings, like the kings and satraps of all religions destroyed, and > built temples and persecuted, or patronized non muslim religious sects > and their leaders, depending on what was convenient to do, and when. I > do not make judgements about an entire people based on what a king has > done or not done. > > However, since you have mentioned kings, let me add my two pice worth of > historical information (though I promise to try and not do more) > > The saga of destruction of temples and places of worship in Kashmir > begins, not with the advent of Muslim power, but with the ravages > wrought by the revival of Brahmanical Hinduism in the Kashmir Valley. It > was Sankarvarman (883-901), destroyed the Buddhist complex at > Parihaspura and used the debris to construct his new capital. Since you > seem to have a reasonably well stocked library of history on Kashmir, > please refer to a far more balanced account of the History of Kashmir - > "Kashmir: A Glimpse in Time" by a respected Kashmiri Pandit scholar, > Rajiv Sapru, in the 23rd (1998-1999) annual number of 'Vitasta', a > fairly scohlarly publication of the Kolkata Kashmir Sabha, which I have > always enjoyed reading, and have read, regularly. > > The depredations of Harsha are very well documented. I am quoting a book > by N. N. Das Gupta, "The Sruggle for Empire",Bombay Bharatiya Vidya > Bhavan, 1957, (of course it might be suspect, since it is written by a > Bengali Boddi/Viadya, like Gargi, me and Swapan Dasgupta the great > friend of 'Panun Kashmir', just to set the record straight, but lets > leave that aside for the moment) > > Harsha (1089-1101 A.D.), who was particularly keen on destroying temple > images, two centuries before Muslim rule was established, had appointed > special officers for the purpose designated as 'devotpaatana-nayaka' or > "prefect for the destruction of icons". Dasgupta's sources for the > narrative of Harsha's depredations include Kalhan's Rajtarangini > [Struggle for Empire, p. 665] > > Later, another king Jayasimha (1128-1155 A.D.) broke down the images and > burned the vihara of Arigon near Srinagara. There are several more > examples of these acts of violence. > > Rajiv Sapru (referred to above) writes in the article that I have cited > > " Many theories are advanced to explain the destruction of the massive, > megalithic Kashmiri temple structures. Sultan Sikandar (1389-1413), one > of the Kashmiri Muslim rulers, has come in for most of the blame. Later > historians have given the sultan the title of the Butshikan (Iconoclast) > in the traditions of Mahmud of Ghazni, the Muslim invader who made the > breaking of idols and the destruction of temples the mission of his > life. But all the devastation is certainly not Sikandar's handiwork. > > There were Hindu kings also who revelled in the destruction of their > predecessors' work. Some were prompted by jealousy, others by sheer fits > of madness and still others by plain greed for the gold, silver, land, > and property attached to the temples. Sankarvarman (883-901), for > instance, was a narrow-minded zealot who uprooted the Buddhist complex > at Parihaspura and, removing the vast material from there, built a whole > new city close by at Sankarpura (modern Pattan on the road to Baramulla > from Srinagar). Harsh (1089-1101), another Hindu king, was comparable to > Nero in the cruel delight he took in watching marvels of workmanship go > up in flames, or huge structures crumble down, demolished by a giant > hammer blow. Many Brahmin priests also took advantage of the prevailing > confusion, aiding in the vandalization of richly-endowed temples so that > they fell into disuse and could conveniently be usurped. Sadly, all this > was later attributed to religious bigotry alone." > > You are happy to quote the iconoclasm of Sikandar Shah, but not the > exemplary religious tolerance of his son and successor Zain-al-Abedin, > who invited the displaced brahmins to return, resettled them, gave them > land and royal patronage and even delighted in the celebrations of Shiv > Ratri, which, I no doubth you do not need to know, in Kashmiri are > called, 'Herath'. I find your selective usage of historical material in > order to buttress an exhausted and moribund argument, like the previous > attempt made by one of your comrades, to distort a fragment of a court > testimony, by taking it out of its context, frankly, disgusting. > > Anyway, > > > We know that Kashmir, and especially Srinagar, and the region around > Srinagar was a very important site of Buddhist worship and habitiation > from many extant records, The sites known as the Jayendra vihara and > Raja-vihara played a very important role right up to eleventh century , > but the more important ones were Ratnagupta and Ratnarashmi vihars in > 11th and 12th centuries, where large number of Mahayana scriptures were > translated into Tibetan. But various Aacharyas of Tantrik Buddhism > flourished in the valley of Kashmir. Also florished Kshemendra who > depicted Buddha as avatara of Vishnu and hence his book was discarded as > profane by Tibetian Lamas. Kashmir Buddhism also had a tremendous effect > on both the Kashmir schools of Shaivism. [N. N. Das Gupta, "The Sruggle > for Empire",Bombay Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1957 p.419 ff.] > > And Shankaracharya's journey to Srinagar has to be seen in relation to > the wider process of the way in which Buddhist practices, viharas, > schools and other sites were challenged by a renascent Brahminism. > Shankaracharya's polemics against the buddhists of Kashmir is > > Interestingly, the entire effort to efface the distinction of the > Buddhist world view, which the Sangh Parivar continues today, by > insisting that Buddhists are Hindus (they are not and never have been) > in many ways begins with our favourite eleventh century poet - > Kshemendra. Buddha gets incorporated in the Puranic literature by being > portrayed as the great 'deceiver', not because he preached a doctrine of > compassion, but because he deceived the 'asuras' into discarding the > Vedas, and thus hastened their demise. > > I do not hold any of you, or any Kashmiri Pandits responsible today for > the willing endorsement that some of their ancestors must have given (or > the part that they would have then played) in a protracted factional > struggle between and within rival dynasties and warlords (both Hindu and > Muslim) that led to the destruction of Buddhist shrines in Kashmir, and > in the genocidial violence unleashed by Sankaravarman,Harsha and other > successive kings against Buddhists in the Kashmir valley (where no > Buddhists remain). > > But I do think that it is pathetic to dredge up what might or might not > have happenned eleven hundred, or eight hundred or even five hundred or > a hundred years ago to justify an argument about today. But, if, just in > case I did, and if I did follow your pathetic example, then the Kashmiri > Pandit argument about how they have always been the victim of oppression > would be, well shattered. Not to mention, the patronage that the > Kashmiri Pandit members of the Mughal bureaucracy enjoyed during Mughal > rule and even during Afghan and Sikh, or the special, royal protection > that the Hindu religion received during the years of Dogra rule and , > after Kashmir was bought at a discounted rate in 1846. > > I know that parallel processes protected the priviledged position of > upper cate Bengali elites in Bengal. Our so called ancestral property > (in my paternal family), which is a class of property titles known as > 'Devottar' in Mitakshara jurisprudence was endowed by a Muslim king to > his Hindu physician, to build a Kali temple. Our priviledge, in Bengal, > on the basis of which my ancestors oppressed their lower caste and > muslim tenant farmers and bonded labourers was built on a compact with a > Muslim aristocracy. I do not want to go into these details because I > have nothing against Kashmiri Pandits as Kashmiri Pandits, or upper > caste Bengalis as upper caste Bengalis, (no, I am not a self hating > upper caste Bengali, self hatred is not the issue here) but when some of > you offer up these exhausted narratives time and time again, all I can > do is to sit up and take notice of the enormous fallacies that you are > bent on pursuing. > > Now please, please do not let me embarass you further, I hate having to > do it, and I do it only so that other people on this list who are not as > well informed (they have no reason to be, and I do not hold it against > them) or who pretend to be as well informed (like you all) about the > history of Kashmir, and South Asia in general, and who do not, like me, > sit up long hours into the night, wasting their time, reading old and > dusty manuscripts, might not be misled by you. > > Please, please, all of you, read, pursue your arguments, as arguments, > not by flailing about for pathetic half digested scraps of histories > that you should be more familiar with than you actually are. And please > get yourselves an education about how to use citations and quotations, > about how to make an argument using historical sources, and of how to do > textual and juridical interpretation. If this list teaches you how to do > even a little bit of that, it might even serve your cause better, > because then you will not be making really obvious and embarassing > mistakes. Peope might then have reasons to treat you with some respect, > even if they disagreed with you. Right now, you are only making yourself > look ridiculous. > > And Rashneek, yes, the friend with whom I walked to the Khanqah of Shah > Hamadan did mention that it was a Pandit shrine devoted to Kali > (Bhairavi I think, but my memory might be playing tricks about the exact > form of Kali we discussed). He did mention that he had seen people > perform rituals by the riverside. He did mention that he regretted and > felt deeply upset by the fact that he could no longer see that happen. > We stayed quiet for a while after that, and I thought a little, just in > passing, about the Kali temple that stood in the grounds of my father's > ancestral house, (because a jagrata Kali was/is the family deity of my > patrilineal family) which too was abandoned, but for reasons quite > different from what any of you would imagine, but I do not want to go > into that now. > > regards, and watch your step, all of you, as I always watch mine, and > try and learn how to spell my name. > > Shuddha > > > > > > > Shudda, > > > > In case you wish to really delve into history of Kashmir to have a > > meaningful discussion please read Baharaistan-i-Shahi.I am a giving a > Muslim > > historian because most here will say Hindu historians would lie. > > Here are some excerpts > > *The source of the texts is Bahiristan-i-Shahi.I am quoting without even > > changing a line. > > "Sultan Shihabu'd-Din addressed himself to such works as would help him > get > > peace in the world hereafter. He arranged a tomb and a burial place for > > himself to be used after his death. Towards the fag end of his life, he > was > > infused with a zeal for demolishing idol-houses and destroying the > temples > > and idols of the infidels. He destroyed the massive temple at Beejeh > Belareh > > [31] (Bijbehara). He had designs to destroy all the temples and put an > end > > to the entire community of the infidels.[32] " > > "Again it needs to be recorded that for some of the time which the holy > Amir > > spent in Kashmir he lived in a sarai at 'Alau'd-Din Pora. At the site > where > > his khanqah was built, there existed a small temple which was demolished > and > > converted into an estrade on which he offered namaz (prayer) five times > a > > day and recited portions of the Qur'an morning and evening. Sultan > > Qutbu'd-Din occasionally * > > *Some more Muslim Historians for you...* > > *After the death of Sultan-Qutubdin,he was succeeded by his son Sultan > > Sikandar who needs no introduction. "Sikandar But-shikan or Sikandar the > > Iconoclast" burnt or destroyed as many temples as he could lay his hands > on. > > He killed thousands of Hindus and converted lacs. One significant detail > is > > that three kharwars (one kharwar is approximately equal to eighty > kilograms) > > of Hindu ceremonial thread (zunnar) were burnt by Sultan Sikandar. > > (Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami, Pir Ghulam Hasan, Vol II, RPD,* Srinagar > > 1954.).His period was a period of utter darkness and barbarianism in the > > history of Kashmir.This is what historians (mostly muslims)have to say > about > > him**.**"He [Sikandar] prohibited all types of frugal games. Nobody > dared > > commit acts which were prohibited by the > > **Sharia* > > *.. The Sultãn was constantly busy in annihilating the infidels and > > destroyed most of the temples..." (Haidar Malik Chãdurãh: > Tãrîkh-i-Kashmîr; > > edited and translated into English by Razia Bano, Delhi, 1991, p. > 55.)"[he] > > strived to destroy the idols and temples of the infidels. He got > demolished > > the famous temple of **Mahãdeva* * > at > > Bahrãre. The temple was dug out from its foundations and the hole (that > > remained) reached the water level. Another temple at Jagdar was also > > demolished… Rãjã Alamãdat had got a big temple constructed at > > **Sinpur*< http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sinpur&action=edit> > > *. (...) the temple was destroyed [by Sikandar]." (Khwãjah Nizãmu'd- Dîn > > Ahmad bin Muhammad Muqîm al-Harbî: Tabqãt-i-Akbarî translated by B. De, > > Calcutta, 1973)"Sikander burnt all books the same wise as fire burns > hay". > > "All the scintillating works faced destruction in the same manner that > lotus > > flowers face with the onset of frosty winter." (Srivara, Zaina > > Rajtarangini).Many mosques were constructed from the debris of broken > hindu > > temples. Iskandarpora was laid out on the debris of the destroyed > temples of > > Hindus. In the neighbourhood of the royal palace in Iskandarpora, the > Sultan > > destroyed the temple of Maha Shri which had been built by Pravarasena > and > > another one built by Tarapida. The material from these was used for > > constructing a Jami' mosque in the middle of the city* > > ** > > If this isnt enough,please ask for more. > > I suggest you read entire history of Kashmir before you try being an > expert > > on it. > > > > Regards > > > > Rashneek > > > > > > On 9/3/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > >>Dear Ms Sengupta , > >> > >>I would quickly go thorogh few questions you have put forward to me. > >> > >>1. You have mentioned that few appeals of terrorists in Kashmir for > return > >>of Kashmiri Pandits to valley may be sincere . However have you ever > read > >>anywhere that the same people have ever tried to get the killers of > >>Kashmiri > >>pandits to Justice ? What makes you believe that we should believe them > >>,when even now threats are being issued to kashmiri pandits , and the so > >>called moderate just express their helplessness. > >> > >>2. The mosque where you went to with your friend in Khankah was a kali > >>temple. Till 1989 we just used to pray by applying vermillion on the > wall > >>of > >>that temple. Did your friend tell you about that ? > >> > >>3. You too are one who believe that jagmohan made kashmiri pandits leave > >>the > >>valley. What more can an example of a perfect brainwash. Would any sane > >>person , unless feeling insecure, leave his home at the call of someone > ? > >>Would someone leave his home, orchards to live in tent without a penny > in > >>his pocket just because jagmohan asked him to do so. > >> > >>You have no knowledge . You are explaining the reason of my exodus to me > . > >>You have no idea of how I felt when i was alone in my house with my > mother > >>and sister with thousands of gun carrying mobs running carzily > >>outside.Youhave no idea when my two neigbours includinga 88 year old > >>person were killed > >>and labelled mukhbirs. > >> > >>Thank you for first explaining me how to translate Kashmiri rightly and > >>now > >>a bigger thanks for explaining to me why I had to leave Kashmir and had > to > >>live in exile. > >> > >>God Bless > >> > >>Pawan Durani > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>On 9/2/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > >> > >>>Dear all, dear Pawan, > >>> > >>>I totally agree with Pawan Durani that an accounting for the genocidial > >>>violence unleashed by the regimes that were in power in the Soviet > >>>Union, and the one that continues to be in power in the Peoples > Republic > >>>of China is necessary.I say this, as someone who was raised within the > >>>Communist tradition, and as someone who has no hesitation in saying > that > >>>I continue to hope for a stateless, classless global society, free of > >>>nations, corporate profit and war, if not in my lifetime, then at least > >>>in the lifetime of generations to come. Everyone has their own vision > of > >>>a better world, I have mine, parts of which or all of which I might > >>>share with the visions of others, as they might share theirs with mine, > >>>and I do not see any reason to be apologetic for that vision. I say > this > >>>because I have no shame, or regret in calling myself a Communist. I am > >>>not now, nor ever have been a member of any communist party, but just > as > >>>I hope it is possible for people to consider themselves Hindu even if > >>>they were not member of the RSS, or Muslims even if they did not > >>>necessarily subscribe to a specific jamaat, or Christians who followed > >>>the example of Christ rather than the doctrine of an organized church, > I > >>>do believe that it is possible to consider oneself a non-party > >> > >>Communist. > >> > >>>Communists, more than anyone else, must deal with, account for and take > >>>responsibility for the fact that their convictions were perverted and > >>>held hostage by ruling formations, cliques and classes that led to some > >>>of the most vicious and ruthless dictatorships known to human history. > >>>They must account for letting this happen, even when they were > >>>themselves the first and most frequent victims of these regimes. Their > >>>being victims of Stalin's purges does not excuse them from the > >>>responsibility of creating a figure like Stalin in the first place. The > > >>>totalitarian nightmare of Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, Caesescu's > Rumania > >>>or Hoxha's Albania are not a legacy that anyone can be proud of. Nor > can > >>>we be proud of the intrigue and petty authoritarianisms that mark the > >>>Trotskyite and Maoist or Marxist Leninist formations that continue to > >>>function, after a fashion, in our midst. > >>> > >>>I say this knowing that the majority of those who perished in Stalin's > >>>gulag, were, Communists. When Leon Trotsky ordered soldiers to fire on > >>>the striking sailors of the Kronstadt, he was a communist sanctioning > >>>the murder of communist militants. The millions who died in Siberia, > who > >>>went to forced labour camps, were Communists. They went to the firing > >>>squad singing the Internationale - a song whose jaunty tune still has > >>>the capacity to lift my spirits on a glum day. And I love to whistle > it > >>>when it rains.Still, It breaks my heart to hear it sung, because it is > a > >>>song sung by executioners and by those that thyt executed, but hey, who > >>>said the world was a simple place where it all works out in the end? > >>>Everything is messy, and each of our histories is part of the mess. > >>> > >>>All this happenned, in my opinion, because, the nationalist logic of > >>>'Socialism in One Country' and/or a tragic romance with the > >>>intoxication of newly won state power perverted the deeply democratic > >>>and internationalist elan of the global communist movement beyond > >>>imagination. From a movement that actively desired the withering away > of > >>>the state, it became a political formation that presided over the > >>>withering away of society, of everything but the state. This is an > >>>object lesson for all revolutionaries and insurgents. Yesterday's > >>>fighters for freedom often become tomorrows prison wardens. I know of > no > >>>exceptions. > >>> > >>>The logic of Capital is not necessarily a logic of private property. > >>>Advanced forms of Capitalism actually abolish private property, > >>>concentrating socially produced wealth in giant coroporate abstractions > >>>far more efficiently than 'nationalization' by so called socialist > >>>regimes can. What happenned in the Soviet Union, China and the > erstwhile > >>>so called 'Peoples Democracies' was not 'socialism, or communism' but a > >>>monstrous amalgam of Capital and the State in the name of saving, yes, > >>>the Nation State. That is why there is no contradiction between the > >>>hyper capitalism that prevails in China today and the twisted dialectic > >>>of Mao Zedong thought. That is why Stalinists adore big dams, nuclear > >>>power and nuclear weapons to the extent that they do. > >>> > >>>Our own so called Communist Parties are no exception. I would like to > >>>illustrate this with an example that has current relevance, which has > >>>been gestured to even in the link that Pawan Durani has forwarded in > one > >>>of his recent postings, and which might be of interest to some - I am > >>>talking of the current impasse over what is being called the 'nuclear > >>>deal' with the United States of America. Having deceived most people in > > >>>this country, that they were against the Nuclear Weapons programme, > they > >>>(the mainstream parliamentary left, led by the two so called Communist > >>>Parties) have now come around to a public posture of trying to create a > > >>>protective 'fence' around our own weaponization programme, which is > what > >>>they mean as 'strategic autonomy' under the banner of national > >>>sovereignty. In doing this, they have come full circle, and are now > >>>saying more or less exactly what the BJP has been saying all along. > They > >>>are also in the same ideological boat as the ruling juntas in > Islamabad, > >>>Tehran and Tel Aviv, which are also committed, overtly and sometimes > >>>covertly, to their own 'patriotic' nuclear deterrents. > >>> > >>>I am not an advocate of the 1-2-3 Treaty that will lock India locked > >>>into a military embrace with the United States. I am totally opposed to > > >>>it, and I think that it will put us all in harm's way. But I think that > >>>the only way to oppose it is to insist on de-nuclearization - by > arguing > >>>for the scrapping of the nuclear weapons fantasies of our ruling elites > > >>>and by creating a sharp and coherent opposition to the idea of India > >>>becoming some sort of super power in Asia. This process (of achieving > >>>super power status) will being untold misery on the people who live in > >>>this country and in Asia at large. The greedy fantasy of energy > security > >>>which makes our ruling elites salivate at the thought of sending Indian > >>>troops to guard 'indian' interests and assets in central asia is > >>>something that sends shivers down my spines. For the sake of all our > >>>futures, I hope such dreams are never realized. They will lead us > >>>straight towards war, and disaster. > >>> > >>>But our mainstream parliamentary left is as involved in living out this > >>>fantasy as anyone else is. It's argument for 'strategic autonomy' means > >>>that it wants to keep India's arsenal of nuclear weapons, wants to > >>>strike a patriotic pose, and is willing at a pinch, basically to hand > >>>this country back to the right reaction of the BJP - all in the name of > >>>proving how nationalist they are. The red in their flags is turning > >>>slowly to saffron. > >>> > >>>The choice that we could be making as a society is not one > of choosing > >>>to strike alliances between an Imperialist United States or a fascist > >>>Iran, or an expansionist China. The only choice worth making is that of > >>>jettisoning nuclear weapons, demilitarizing South Asia, firstly by > >>>finding a solution to Kashmir that is acceptable to the majority of the > > >>>people who live there, by making peace with our neighbours, and by > >>>ending the military occupations of the north eastern territories. It is > >>>a sign of the poverty of political imaginations in this country today > >>>that these choices are precisely those that the so called 'left' > parties > >>>are bent on jettisoning but clinging to their new found doctrine of > >>>'strategic autonomy', which puts them straight in bed, whether they > like > >>>it or not, with the Bharatiya Janata Party. > >>> > >>>It was nationalism that perverted the communist ideal. That made the > >>>Soviet Union travel a distance from being the product of a revolution > >>>that had abolished the standing army to becoming a power that could > only > >>>sustain itself with brute military force, and then not at all. > >>> > >>>From a conviction that held only one thing sacred, and that being that > >>>the world should have no walls, it became an ideology that built walls > >>>and the barbed wire fences of the gulag. From a form of political > >>>culture that privileged the widest liberty, with Rosa Luxemburg stating > > >>>that freedom of expression is not freedom unless it is for those who > are > >>>against us - communist parties travelled a long distance - to presiding > >>>over the routine suffocation of all dissent with a banal brutality. > >>> > >>>And for all this, I hold the virus of nationalism, to a large measure > >>>responsible. That is why though I have no quarrel with people who use > >>>the label socialist, communist, or even anarchist to describe my > >>>positions, I will never agree to be called a nationalist. When you put > >>>nationalism and socialism together, you get something called National > >>>Socialism. And effectively, there is little for me to choose between > the > >>>National Socialism that prevailed in Germany from 1933 to 1945 and the > >>>Socialist Nationalism that prevailed in USSR, for the better part of > the > >>>twentieth century, and that continues to prevail in China today. The > >>>differences that do exist are not of kind, but of degree. > >>> > >>>I am willing to accept the necessity to conduct a personal atonement > for > >>>the millions who perished under regimes that called themselves > >>>communist. I personally think that it is the responsibility of anyone > >>>who calls himself or herself a communist today to undertake to mourn > for > >>>all those who were (or are being) killed or displaced or imprisoned or > >>>imprisoned in the name of communism, to repent and ask for forgiveness. > >>> > >>>Because I am a communist, I hold nothing higher than humanity - > >>>ordinary simple humanity - just the worth of human beings as human > >>>beings, in all their unpredictable, unscriptable variety. Neither > >>>nations, nor parties, nor god, nor gods, nor any ideal or abstraction > of > >>>progress can be more important than the health and well being of a > >>>child, or the freedom to do with our time, our leisure and our labour > >>>power as we see fit. I do not want martyrs or heroes, I want to live my > >>>life with ordinary people, doing ordinary things. I want no one I love > >>>or care for to have to die for the sake of a flag or any abstract idea, > >>>because flags and abstractions cannot feed, clothe or shelter human > >>>beings with dignity or liberty for all. > >>> > >>>This does not mean that we abandon politics, it just means that we work > >>>very hard to fashion a politics that does not demand the sacrificial > >>>offering of our humanity on a daily, hourly basis. I am willing to > >>>engage with anyone, no matter what they believe in, who is sincerely > >>>committed to this enterprise. But it does require us all to take a long > >>>and hard look at ourselves. I want to know which political ideology, > >>>which nation, which religious faith has not, in the history of humanity > >>>demanded and received its due in blood. Everyone can claim the status > of > >>>victims for themselves, and everyone has the blood of others on their > >>>hands. And the arithmetic of who has killed more, and who has killed > >>>less is far less interesting than the more difficult and demanding task > >>>of accounting for the actions of the executioners on your own side. > >>> > >>>What I want to know is, will those who call themselves nationalists > >>>undertake to mourn for all those who have been killed in order that > >>>their beloved and sacred nations remain the fictions that they are on > >>>the map of the world? > >>> > >>>For me, the communist idea remains what it was for the Communards of > the > >>>Paris Commune, for the partisans of the Petersburgh Soviet and for the > >>>Workers and Peasant Councils of Republican Spain - that of a world, and > >>>a social order where people, not corporations or governments, control > >>>the relations they enter into in order to produce the things that make > >>>life possible and worth living. A world without armies, states, police > >>>forces, intelligence agencies, weapons traders, or factories that > >>>pollute the earth or poison peoples bodies. A world without alienated > >>>and alienating labour. Where each of us labour according to our > >>>capacities and receive the fruits of our labour according to our > >>>neends. Where we begin to move from the shackles of necessity to the > >>>emancipation of desire. > >>> > >>>For this reason, I am willing most of all, to look hard and long at the > >>>legacies that I have inherited, and subject them to the sharpest > >>>possible critique if they are found poor and wanting in relation to the > >>>dream of a just and free world. If this list is a place where we can > all > >>>begin this process of reflection on the limitations and areas of > >>>darkness within all that we profess and have inherited - whether as > >>>liberals, islamists, hindutva-vadis, secularists, nationalists, cynics > >>>and sceptics then it will be worth the provocation that Pawan Durani > has > >>>put before us. I thought I would rise to the bait, and risk making a > >>>fool of myself, if necessary. Of course, if we all think that none of > us > >>>have anything to reflect on or atone for, I, and I hope Pawan, will be > >>>sorely disappointed. > >>> > >>>Your turn Pawan. Tell me what you think is wrong with the fact that the > >>>Indian state killed so many thousands of people in Kashmir. Do you > think > >>>there is anything wrong? Or would you like to pass over these > >>>thousands of deaths in silence. > >>> > >>>I have heard more than the odd person with separatist sentiments in > >>>Kashmir make the gesture of apology for the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, > >>>and for the death of Kashmiri pandits, for the destruction of their > >>>property. Sometimes the sadness and regret in that apology is a ritual, > > >>>but often it is not fake. I walked with a friend in Srinagar one night > >>>in the vicinity of the Khanqah and mosque of Shah Hamadan, and he > >>>pointed out to me a place close by the bank of the river where a shrine > > >>>once stood, and then we both stood in front of it in silence for a > >>>while. And he tried to find words to talk about the strange days of > >>>1989. It wasn't easy for him, and I did not make it easy for him, but > >>>the conversation did not damage our friendship. > >>> > >>>He told me what I knew already, about the way Jagmohan, then then > >>>governor of Jammu and Kashmir, engineered the exodus, about the > rumours > >>>and panic that was spread through the grapevines carefully cultivated > by > >>>the state, and about the painful slogans in the streets. All this I > >>>know, we all know. But he also said, "It was wrong of the state to make > > >>>them go, It was wrong on the part of those that created the climate of > >>>fear (and he meant the separatists, or those within their ranks who had > >>>undoubtedly attacked some high profile Kasmiri Pandit individualsr, and > > >>>it was wrong on their part for them to go and to leave us at the mercy > >>>of the state, but it was also wrong on our part that we did so little > to > >>>make them stay". > >>> > >>>I want you to think carefully and tell me if you can respect this > >>>feeling of loss? I agree that you have every reason for your pain, but > >>>what if I said, abandoning those who were your neighbours also gave > them > >>>no opportunity to heal or at least address your pain. Have you ever > >>>considered what it is like to be yourself, when someone who is not you, > >>>who is the other, is no longer there to speak to, to be with, to be > >>>different from? What is the strange loss we feel when the person we > >>>think is our most intense antagonist leaves us alone to be with > >>>ourselves? For many Kashmiri's who remain where they have always lived, > > >>>who did not have places to go to where the Indian army would not hound > >>>them, perhaps It comes from a strange and difficult to explain sense of > >>>loss at seeing the abandonment of their neighbours home. Perhaps It > >>>comes from the unease of knowing that no 'azadi' will ever be complete > >>>if it is won at the cost of the exodus of a minority. Sometimes it > comes > >>>from the memory of a Pandit school master in a village school who > >>>suddenly disappeared on that night that you all mention. > >>> > >>>I always find it interesting to come to that point when someone says > >>>that his or her people have done something wrong. Often it means > >>>risking being called a traitor. I think in our times, traitors are > >>>saints. Imperfect, flawed, awkward saints, but the only kind that I can > >>>light a candle to. So all heretics are my friends. They make it > possible > >>>for people in the camps of their enemies undertake necessary acts of > >>>counter-treason. When two traitors meet from opposite sides, there is > >>>the possibility of an encounter very different from the kind that > >>>normally gets scripted by the security forces of our beleagured > >>>republic. There is the possibility of an unpredictable conversation. > >>>This list, over the past few days, has been the setting for some > >>>unpredictable conversations, I do not wish them to end. > >>> > >>>I am a traitor, and many communists will call me one for saying the > >>>things that I have said in this post in response to your provocation. > >>>But then I think that sometimes, treason is the only honorable thing. > >>> > >>>However, I have yet to come across a Indian nationalist ideologue who > >>>believes Kashmir to be an indivisible part of India express any regret > >>>over the thousands of Kashmiri Muslims who were killed by Indian > >>>soldiers or who disappeared in the nineties in Kashmir, or about the > >>>thousands who were tortured or imprisoned, because all this happenned > to > >>>keep Kashmir's within the map of India. For them, this violence was > >>>justified and necessary. Those deaths were necessary. > >>> > >>>You may meet many communists who will say that the killing of millions > >>>in the Soviet Union or in China was justified and necessary. I am not > >>>one of them, and there are many others like me. But I am still looking > >>>for the Indian nationalist who is willing to say sorry for Kashmir, for > > >>>Manipur, for Nagaland. > >>> > >>>Perhaps you could be the one who makes a beginning. Try it out in your > >>>head and tell me what it feels like. Reject it if you want, but at > least > >>>try it out. And tell me what it feels like for a moment to be a little > >>>larger than your own corner of the pain that engulfs us all. Please do > >>>share your feeling with this list. > >>> > >>>regards, > >>> > >>>Shuddha > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Pawan Durani wrote: > >>> > >>>>With the passing of communism into history as an ideological > >> > >>alternative > >> > >>>to > >>> > >>>>democracy it is time to do some accounting of its human costs. > >>>> > >>>>http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM > >>>>_________________________________________ > >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >>>_________________________________________ > >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>Critiques & Collaborations > >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >>_________________________________________ > >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>Critiques & Collaborations > >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>subscribe in the subject header. > >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From indlinux at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 14:05:31 2007 From: indlinux at gmail.com (G Karunakar) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:05:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shuddha invites Pawan to bed In-Reply-To: <793959.17522.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <46DC7AF5.7080201@sarai.net> <793959.17522.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <773e2c260709040135o2d1ddff1n2185081e1d1dbdab@mail.gmail.com> interestingly!... http://profiles.yahoo.com/kshmendra2005 Sex: No Answer On 9/4/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: thanks, is that enough, can we go to bed now. > > Shuddha > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From hpp at vsnl.com Tue Sep 4 11:19:25 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:19:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Protest this article Message-ID: <00fb01c7eee8$1a5b8fa0$6301a8c0@Ramaswamy> Dear Friends I was shocked to read an article in the current issue of The Economist (London), about the recent bomb blasts in Hyderabad. I am copying the article below; it is also accessible on-line at: http://economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9725391 The last paragraph of the story begins with the line: "It is not known what role India's 150m Muslims ...play in the violence." As a citizen of India, I considered this highly objectionable, offensive and provocatory. Some might even consider it inflamatory and incendiary. For a journalist to blithely label an entire community of a nation, 150 million, "suspect" - is simply astounding! An immediate retraction and apology would be in order. You may write to The Economist at: letters at economist.com Yours sincerely V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com .................... India Mad and Hyderabad Aug 30th 2007 | DELHI >From The Economist print edition Nameless, ruthless and pointless IT IS a strange terrorist who prefers to remain anonymous. Yet this seems to be the signature of the bombers who, every few months for the past few years, have exploded crude bombs in India's cities. The latest blasts were in pleasant southern Hyderabad on August 25th. In quick succession, explosions in a park during a laser show and at a crowded food-stall killed 43 people and injured scores. Another 19 bombs were discovered planted around Hyderabad, and made safe. The government of Andhra Pradesh, of which Hyderabad is the capital, leapt to blame the customary suspects: "terrorist organisations based in Bangladesh and Pakistan". It may be right. Informed sources accuse Shahid Bilal, a Bangladeshi Islamist, of orchestrating the bombing. Mr Bilal leads a Pakistan-based militant group, called Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami, that has fought Indian troops in Indian-controlled Kashmir. In May he was alleged to have been involved in another bombing in Hyderabad, that killed 11 people. Then again, maybe not. Indian officials, especially at the state level, tend to blame terrorist atrocities on the neighbours without much, or any, evidence. So it was in February, after a bomb killed 68 people on a train in Haryana in the north. Yet no claims of responsibility, compelling evidence or significant arrests have ensued. One possible reason for the culprits' coyness is that they are indeed friends of Pakistan. With Pakistan currently struggling to stay friends with America and make friends with India, it may have ordered its former-or present-proxies not to cause it too much trouble. Also uncertain is what the bombers might be hoping to achieve: an end to the peace process between India and Pakistan; or perhaps to commit just enough murder against an old enemy to keep their networks alive. Either way, the violence is worrying for India. The attacks tend to reveal the ineptitude of the police. They also serve as an unwelcome reminder that India-a new favourite with foreign investors-is a violent place. In each of the past two years, according to American government figures, India lost around 1,300 lives to terrorism, putting it second only to Iraq. Most of these deaths were in its north-eastern and eastern states, wracked by nationalist and Maoist insurgencies. Hyderabad is different. It is a centre of the burgeoning computer-services and pharmaceuticals industries that have lured foreign investors and driven India's recent boom. It is not known what role India's 150m Muslims, who include 40% of Hyderabad's population, play in the violence. Probably a supporting one at most. But that could change. India's Muslims have long suffered politically inspired communal violence and casual discrimination. Were they ever to become seriously riled, India would have a problem indeed. From geert at desk.nl Tue Sep 4 17:50:57 2007 From: geert at desk.nl (geert lovink) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:20:57 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] OII invites applications from the global South Message-ID: <05c8e0cfa7aaf8693d89f00f67b23b04@desk.nl> Call for Applications: Civil Society Practitioners Programme Reminder: Application deadline 26 September 2007 Oxford Internet Institute Civil Society Practitioners Programme Invitation to apply The Oxford Internet Institute (University of Oxford) invites applications from the global South to fill two places in its Civil Society Practitioners Programme. This visitor programme is intended for Civil Society Practitioners of distinction or outstanding promise who wish to visit the Institute for a period of six weeks between February and December 2008, to undertake research concerning the social impact of the Internet and related ICTs. Visitors are expected to reside in Oxford during their stay, and to participate fully in the intellectual life of the Institute. The successful applicants will receive: * A subsistence allowance of 3800 GBP (7500 USD) to cover research expenses and living costs during their stay in Oxford * A travel grant of up to 1000 GBP (2000 USD) for travel to and from the UK Applications will ideally be submitted by Civil Society Practitioners in or from the global South, active in the areas of freedom of expression, media reform, media justice, and communications and information policy in the globalized context of the Internet. How to apply For details on how to apply, please download: Information for Applicants (PDF, 45kb) at http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/CSPP_Application_Information.pdf You may also request to have this information emailed to you in plain text form. The deadline for completed applications to reach the OII Academic and Student Affairs Officer (by post or email: contact details below) is 26 September 2007. Please note that incomplete applications cannot be considered. Final notification of an award will occur in November 2007. Successful candidates will be expected to take up their six week residency in Oxford at any time between February and December 2008. Contact Laura Taylor Academic and Student Affairs Officer Oxford Internet Institute University of Oxford 1 St Giles, Oxford OX1 3JS United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0)1865 287222 Fax: +44 (0)1865 287211 Email: recruit at oii.ox.ac.uk This programme has been made possible through funding by the media policy portfolio in the Knowledge, Creativity and Freedom Program of the Ford Foundation. This Call for Applications is also available at: http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/microsites/cspp/ From adityarajkaul at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 19:30:36 2007 From: adityarajkaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 19:30:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Showkat=92s_last_run?= Message-ID: *Showkat's last run* ** *His colleagues thought no bullet had his name written on it. But that run would prove to be his last. Rahul Pandita and Zubair Dar tell the story of super cop Showkat Bhat, and those of four others, revealing the tangled picture of Kashmir * Kashmir is like a Kafkaesque fantasy. A few hours before we land at the Srinagar airport, four Gujarati tourists have been killed in a terrorist attack. And yet, as we move along the Dal Lake, we see hordes of domestic tourists, enjoying shikara rides and Kashmiri cuisine. Young soldiers watch nervously, their fingers fixed on the trigger. Any passerby could be a suicide bomber. As we pass the Lal Chowk area, a young man fires at a BSF soldier, killing him on the spot. While we are in the valley, a dreaded Lashkar militant commander, Abu Talah is killed in an encounter. A senior police officer tells us how Talah and his men had strangled a man with the drawstrings of his pajamas. It is because of villains like Talah that Showkat's story needs to be told. He is almost a part of the Kashmiri folklore, but no media has ever bothered to tell his story. For them, he is mere statistics. But Showkat's life is much more than that. It is an unstated revolt against external interference in Kashmir. We bring you his story. Somewhere, somehow, the lives of four other Kashmiris form a trajectory with that of Showkat's. Together, they form a curve. You can call that curve Kashmir. Link: - http://www.thesundayindian.com/09092007/section.asp?sname='Cover%20Feature'&idate='09/09/2007' *-- Aditya Raj Kaul Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* From patrice at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 4 21:03:11 2007 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:33:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Reader-list] Ibrahim Warde: Riches beyond belief Message-ID: <23042.195.27.17.187.1188919991.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from Le Monde diplomatique, September 2007 ________________________________________________________ September 2007 BIN LADEN AS A FANTASY FIGURE Riches beyond belief Most of the factoids that have become canon about Osama bin Laden and the financing of terror were estimates, guesstimates or simply made up, as in the case of his presumed $300m personal fortune. But these fantasies have driven real and dangerous actions. by Ibrahim Warde ________________________________________________________ Michael Lewis, in Liar's Poker, his classic portrait of Wall Street in the 1980s, described how he invented "logical lies" as an investment banker to explain otherwise inexplicable events to nervous clients. Asked why the dollar fell, he would confidently say: "Several Arabs had sold massive holdings of gold for which they received dollars. They were selling those dollars for marks and driving the dollar lower." In his words: "Most of the time when markets move, no one has any idea why. A man who can tell a good story can make a good living as a broker. And it's amazing what people will believe... selling out of the Middle East was an old standby. Since no one ever had any clue what the Arabs were doing with their money or why, no story involving Arabs could ever be refuted." (1). That story was unavoidable in the wake of the 11 September 2001 attacks. No one knew anything specific about them. The magnitude of the destruction suggested that a huge financial and logistical infrastructure had been at work. With the involvement of Osama bin Laden, usually described as a Saudi billionaire and terrorist financier, and the participation of 15 Saudi hijackers, the plausibility of the financial argument coincided with a common stereotype. As Jack Shaheen's comprehensive study of the portrayal of Arabs by Hollywood suggests, they had long been associated with "vile oil sheikhs with an eye for western blondes and arms deals and intent on world domination, or with crazed terrorists" (2). By joining two of the three stereotypes, the billionaire and the bomber (the third was the belly dancer), the events of 9/11 seemed to verify the truth of the caricature. An instant canon on terrorist financing was established in the days after the attacks. The laundry list was familiar and mindlessly repeated: the Bin Laden $300m fortune, business fronts legal and illegal, Islamic charities, Saudis, rich Arabs, hawalas, drugs, gold and diamonds, etc. From the popular press to prestigious thinktanks, the lists were almost identical. Repetition looked like corroboration. The lackadaisical way in which the discourse on terrorist finance had been constructed contrasted with the authoritative way in which the dubious facts were cited and recited. After 2004 there was considerable new information available about the financial war on terror, but such evidence had little impact on perceptions or policies. Key players such as former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke, and Michael Scheuer, who headed the "virtual Bin Laden station" at the Central Intelligence Agency, published memoirs or contributed to books debunking much of what was commonly believed. The publication of the September 11 Commission report in August 2004 helped a clearer understanding of the reality and contradicted much of the canon. The report, complemented by a terrorist financing monograph, was based on "a comprehensive review of government materials on terrorist financing from essentially every law enforcement, intelligence and policy agency involved in the effort". The story lives on The report and monograph made important points: they showed how little money is needed for terror attacks; they debunked the urban legend of the Bin Laden personal fortune; and they hinted at the politicisation of terrorist financing inquiries. Since Bin Laden had been singled out in 1998 as Public Enemy Number One, the financial war was driven by the belief that his $300m fortune was the core of the al-Qaida funding network. The report confirmed that the figure was fictive. Yet the story lives on. A Google search in April 2006 yielded 154,000 hits. The $300m factoid seems to have originated in 1996, when a State Department analyst inserted it in a fact sheet on Bin Laden (3). It was arrived at by a rough calculation based on approximate figures. The analyst divided assets of the Bin Laden group (estimated at $5bn) by the number of sons (estimated at 20). That gave $250m, which he rounded up to $300m. The calculation rested on estimates and dubious assumptions about the family, inheritance laws and practices, the actual worth of the privately-held company and its ownership structure. Though it was not even a back-of-the-envelope calculation, the figure soon gained absolute status. Most accounts of Bin Laden after 11 September describe a cave-dwelling heir and tycoon with close ties to the Saudi establishment who ran his business empire and made shrewd moves in the stock market while plotting terrorism. The enduring legend became that "of the world's richest terrorist, a business-savvy nomad who has used a vast inheritance and a constellation of companies to finance a global network of violence" (4). With almost no exceptions, every news article, every thinktank report, every book of revelations on terrorist financing, has repeated the assertion that Osama bin Laden had a $300m personal fortune, the basis of the financing for al-Qaida. That figure has been unchanged since 1996: despite a life of danger, Bin Laden's wealth stayed remarkably stable: no gains or losses, no expenses or subsidies to Taliban hosts, no confiscations and no accretions dented or inflated it. The terrorist-finance literature was a form of magic realism - a mix of rich detail, surrealism and fantasy. Numbers were necessary, even when invented, if only to lend precise cachet to reports or analyses and, to paraphrase George Orwell, give the "appearance of solidity to pure wind". The lawsuit filed on 15 August 2002 against several Saudi princes, banks and charities (Burnett v Al Baraka Investment and Development Corporation), which came to be called "the lawsuit of the 21st century", sought "an amount in excess of $100trn" from dozens of defendants (5). The lawsuit was thoroughly prepared and lavishly financed. Yet on the day after it was filed, the attorneys issued a correction, claiming that a clerical error had misstated the amount asked: the plaintiffs were only asking for $1trn. Perhaps the lawyers had realised that the initial amount exceeded the GNP of all countries in the world combined. At the time of 9/11, the Bush administration was bent on implementing an agenda of financial deregulation which included dismantling much of the existing anti-money laundering apparatus. The attacks caused a sharp policy U-turn. With the zeal of the newly converted, those very people who had been intent on dismantling the legislative apparatus found themselves hastily and vigorously expanding it. More truthiness than truth Throughout the war on terror, organised crime analogies came easily to law enforcement agencies, as well as to influential pundits. Michael Ledeen of the American Enterprise Institute, one of the most influential intellectuals in the early days of the war on terror, described Osama bin Laden as "the CEO of a multinational terrorist corporation... very imaginative at finding ways to make money from his terrorist ventures... The best way to think of the terror network is as a collection of mafia families" (6). In the 1980s the focus was on Central and Latin American drug lords. After 9/11 the war on drugs was overshadowed by the threat of Islamic fundamentalism. The massive shift of resources resulted in a substantial mismatch. Those government agents who did have some international experience and cultural-linguistic skills were typically fluent in Spanish and had no experience of the Islamic world. New experts appeared who fitted the description of management scholar Henry Mintzberg: "An expert has also been defined as someone who knows more and more about less and less until finally he or she knows everything about nothing. Perhaps this means that if you understand only certain discrete chunks, ultimately you understand nothing" (7). Since none of the "$300m fortune" was traceable, a new industry purported to reveal the secrets of its whereabouts. Some practitioners were partisan hacks with a transparent political agenda; others were imaginative writers eager for a scoop. Those who made up the original allegations seemed well-informed and were asked for further revelations. Steven Emerson, a ubiquitous terrorist expert, said that immediately after 9/11 he "fielded 1,000 calls, many from news organisations" (8). Another founding mythographer was Jack Kelley, star reporter of USA Today, the largest circulation daily in the US, who produced countless scoops until, in 2004, his paper discovered a "pattern of lies and deceit". He found it easy to write about terrorism and financing. Hiding behind confidential and anonymous sources, he broke many of the stories which have since entered the journalistic bloodstream. They included an eyewitness account of young Palestinian suicide bombers and their culture of death; the revelation that prominent Saudi businessmen "worth more than $5bn" continued to transfer tens of millions of dollars to Bin Laden as "protection money to stave off attacks on their businesses in Saudi Arabia"; and the discovery of computer records in Afghan caves showing links between Chicago-based Islamic charities and al-Qaida (9). For his suicide bomb eyewitness account, he was a Pulitzer prize finalist. With the 9/11 attacks, the lines between fact and fiction were further blurred since the unbelievability of the events lent credence to many of the wildest assertions about Arabs and Muslims. Nobody then knew much about al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden. Americans were ready to believe he was a James Bond villain, rich enough to fund his own wars. Indeed, his hidden wealth has captured the imagination of many novelists. Chris Ryan's Greed (a bestseller, at least according to its cover) bears more than a passing resemblance to non-fiction purporting to reveal the secrets of terrorism financing. A character says: "Al-Qaida has a lot of money. Its roots are in Saudi Arabia, and that's a rich place. But it has a lot of support right across that region. There are contributions coming from everywhere - Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan, Malaysia. That's what makes them so deadly. Fanatics we can handle. Fanatics with cash are a different story. Overall, we estimate the organisation has at least $5bn at its disposal. They hide their money, and they are good at it. So it could be a lot more" (10). It could be said, to borrow from satirist Stephen Colbert, that there is much more truthiness than truth in the terrorist financing discourse - with truthiness defined as what you want the facts to be as opposed to what the facts are. The parallels between Bin Laden's hidden stash and Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction are striking. They caused the financial war against global terrorism and regime change in Iraq. The usual suspects of terrorist financing - rich Arabs, the Saudis, Islamic charities, etc - became as familiar as the smoking guns of WMD - mobile labs, aluminum tubes, Niger uranium, etc - that helped sell the invasion of Iraq to the US public. Both wars created created a new and very real problem through pursuing an imaginary one. ________________________________________________________ Ibrahim Warde is adjunct professor at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, Tufts University (Medford, Massachusetts). This is excerpted from The Price of Fear: The Truth Behind the Financial War on Terror (IB Tauris and University of California Press, 2007) (1) Michael Lewis, Liar's Poker: Rising Through the Wreckage on Wall Street (Norton, New York, 1989). (2) Jack G Shaheen, Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Vilifies a People (Interlink Pub Group, New York, 2001). (3) Kenneth Katzman, "Terrorism: Near Eastern Groups and State Sponsors, 2001", Washington, DC, Congressional Research Service, 10 September 2001. (4) Karen DeYoung, David Hilzenrath and Robert O'Harrow Jr, "Bin Laden's Money Takes Hidden Paths to Agents of Terror", The Washington Post, 21 September 2001. (5) Jennifer Senior, "Intruders In The House Of Saud", The New York Times Magazine, 14 March 2004. (6) Michael Ledeen, The War Against the Terror Masters (St. Martin's Griffin, New York, 2003). (7) Henry Mintzberg, The Rise and Fall of Strategic Planning: Reconceiving Roles for Planning, Plans, Planners (Free Press, New York, 1994). (8) Felicity Barringer, "Terror Experts Use Lenses of Their Specialties", The New York Times, 24 September 2001. (9) Jack Kelley, USA Today, 26 June 2001, 29 October 1999 and 30 January 2002. (10) Chris Ryan, Greed (Arrow Books, London, 2004). Original text in English ________________________________________________________ ALL RIGHTS RESERVED © 2007 Le Monde diplomatique http://MondeDiplo.com/2007/09/03terrorism From patrice at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 4 21:39:19 2007 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 18:09:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Reader-list] fwd: Killer-TV newsletter sept 2007 - with bits from India. Message-ID: <6372.195.27.17.187.1188922159.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Waag Society’s KillerTV newsletter September 2007 KillerTV used the summer to move content from the http://connect.waag.org site to the new www.killertv.nl site. The complete Cyberspace Salvations (about new media and spirituality) and Sentient Creatures series (on robotics, science and art) can be streamed to your computer in full color. For most programs it is also possible to download them as Quicktime –mov- files, you will need a Quicktime player http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/ to watch them (or VLC for that matter, a useful piece of –open source- software anyway). We will keep on moving the video-content to the new site but if you are looking for something that the killertv site does not provide check out http://connect.waag.org , where all our old material is still available. The new site also keeps on gathering content: recently we acquired a documentary by Swati Desai about the Hole in the Wall-project. It shows the well known project with computer kiosks that gives the population of poor area’s in India a chance to get on the internet. The project is the ideological predecessor of the 100$ laptop, a project of MIT’s Nicholas Negroponte, that strives to give every child everywhere in the world a cheap, smartly designed, laptop. KillerTV is, apart from an eCulture channel, also a testbed for streaming media experiments. The coming season we will test various –more or less- collaborative streaming applications. We will also make INTV available to our visitors, an interface to manipulate streaming video, live and together with other users. It will be possible to log in to a parallel stream where you can work on the images. In the fall of 2007 we will start with an occasional streaming event. The regular program begins in December. As usual, we will keep you posted on the Killersite, the Waag Society website and off course in this newsletter. KillerTV is funded by: VSB Fonds Pauwhoffonds Mondriaan Stichting Surfnet Berhard Cultuurfonds, Waag Society _______________________________________________ Killertv mailing list Killertv at waag.org https://mailman.waag.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/killertv From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 22:11:05 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shuddha invites Pawan to bed In-Reply-To: <773e2c260709040135o2d1ddff1n2185081e1d1dbdab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <367761.70808.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> GK It was a moral dilemma. "FREQUENTLY" would have been blatantly dishonest "OFF AND ON" would have been neither here nor there "NEVER" would have been somewhat dishonest Therefore left it blank. Cheers KK G Karunakar wrote: interestingly!... http://profiles.yahoo.com/kshmendra2005 Sex: No Answer On 9/4/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: thanks, is that enough, can we go to bed now. > > Shuddha > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Sep 4 22:28:38 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:28:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CPI(M) on Nuclear Deal In-Reply-To: <98f331e00709032307r3b5e4006h8b4fb8123813103f@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00709032307r3b5e4006h8b4fb8123813103f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DD8EBE.7070202@sarai.net> Dear Prakash, many thanks for sending in Sitaram Yechury's piece on the CPI(M)'s perspective on the 'Nuclear Deal' with the USA. It is refreshing to note that Yechuri, unlike the CPI(M) at least, has it in him to make weak attempts at humour. However, one question continues to raise its nagging head, and I am wondering whether we could have a discussion on this in the list. There is one simple way of not entering an entente with the USA, that is to give up the nuclear arsenal. After all, the US interest in engaging with India on the nuclear question stems simply from the fact that India is a declared military nuclear power. If India, like some other states, such as South Africa, Brazil or Libya were to simply renounce and mothball its nuclear weapons programme, there would be no question of a 'strategic embrace' with the United States. The United States would no longer be interested in either engaging with or containing India as a strategic partner. I have hinted at this option in a post responding to the now infamous thread begun by Pawan Durani, titled 'By R.J.Rummel' , but it is a point that seems to have gotten lost. So, why do Yechuri and his comrades, simply not explore the option of launching a popular movement against weaponization, because that would both ensure that India stay out of the US brokered strategic partenership, and make a significant contribution to progress towards a nuclear free south asia. Until that not so subtle shift in perspectives happens, I am inclined to believe that the CPI(M)'s opposition to the deal is just a prelude to an imminent silent or tacit partnership with the BJP to bring down this government. In fact i would speculate that it is mainly a posture. What does everyone else think? regards Shuddha prakash ray wrote: > *Sitaram Yechury (Rajya Sabha MP and member, CPI(M) Politburo) on Nuclear > Deal* > > Bashing the Left for its opposition to the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal > has, indeed, become the flavour of the month. I have the prerogative to be > the sole exception to this among those occupying this column space. While it > would be a pleasure to meet the arguments of our detractors, much of the > attack on the Left has, unfortunately, been based on age-old prejudices and > not reason. A substantial section of the media continues to conduct a > malignant disinformation campaign. > > In this context, I am reminded of the following joke told originally by my > maternal uncle. The Pope once decided to send a bishop on a goodwill mission > to the US, warning him to be careful of the American media given their > reputation. Upon arrival in New York, the bishop, besieged by the media, was > asked if his itinerary included a visit to a nightclub. Recollecting the > Pope's warning, he dodged the question retorting, "Are there nightclubs in > New York?" The next morning, the papers screamed, "Arriving Bishop's first > question: Are there nightclubs in New York?" > > B Raman, a former senior officer of India's intelligence apparatus, > slanderously wrote on this page (*The Manchurian candidates*, August 21) > that the Left's campaign against India's nuclear deal is "driven by China's > concerns". He alleges that I, personally, had forced this government to > order the issue of visas to 1,000 Chinese engineers. This allegation bears > not an iota of substance, and nothing can be more preposterous. He further > wrote how on the walls of Calcutta, the Marxists painted 'China's Chairman > is our Chairman' as graffiti. Now, everyone knows that it was the slogan of > the Naxalites at the height of their campaign against the Marxists. With > such disinformation guiding our intelligence apparatus in the past, it is no > wonder that we lost two Prime Ministers to assassins and continue to pay a > heavy price due to intelligence lapses, the latest being the recent > terrorist blasts in Hyderabad. Thanks to small mercies, this gentleman has > now retired. > > Be that as it may, those who know of the CPI(M)'s birth and history will > know that for nearly two decades both the international Communist giants — > the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and the Communist Party of China — > opposed the CPI(M)'s policies from different perspectives. The CPI(M)'s > policy directions are always determined by its own perceptions of what is in > the interest of India and its people. Those who are willing to eagerly > surrender India's sovereignty to US imperialism will do well to refrain from > offering unsolicited advice and certificates of patriotism. If our > detractors are worthy of character and substance, then they ought to meet > our arguments on their merits, not through perfidy. > > It was aggressively argued in these very columns that any attempt to cap > India's nuclear strategic capabilities will immensely benefit both China and > Pakistan. Who, may we ask, is vigorously pursuing this Indo-US nuclear deal > which, we are told, will limit India's strategic capacities, thus, providing > advantage to our neighbours? Could I, then allege that those advancing this > deal are acting at the behest of China and Pakistan? > > Such slander apart, we are charged with preventing India's energy > augmentation by opposing this deal. India's current power generation is 127 > gigawatts (gw). At the current rates of GDP growth, this needs to grow to > 337 gw by 2016-17. There is no doubt that if this is not achieved, India's > pace of development would be severely restricted. The moot question, > however, is whether nuclear energy expansion is the only or the best option > that we have today? > > In 2006, 3.9 gw of nuclear power was generated, 3 per cent of India's total > power generation. In the most optimistic scenario, after the > operationalisation of this deal, this would grow, at best, to 20 gw by 2016, > or just over 6 per cent of the projected generation. > Further, is nuclear power cost-effective? On the contrary, it is the most > expensive option. As compared to coal, it would be one-and-a-half times more > expensive. Compared with gas, it is twice as expensive. So is the case with > hydro-electricity. > > Given the abundance of coal reserves in India, the Planning Commission > estimates that thermal energy would dominate power generation in India. As > far as hydro-electricity is concerned, given the potential of nearly 150 gw, > only 33 gw has been installed as of 2006. In addition, over 55,000 MW could > be imported from Nepal and Bhutan. The tapping of such huge hydro-potential > will not only augment our energy capacities at half the cost of nuclear > energy, but will also tame these rivers, which regularly consume the lives > of thousands. This year's floods according to the United Nations, are > 'unprecedented' in human memory. > Thus, the government's argument that the Indo-US nuclear deal is to augment > our energy resources sounds untenable. Huge commercial orders running into > thousands of crores of rupees for the purchase of nuclear reactors would be > placed on the US. The profit bonanza to multinational corporations is there > for all to see with the attendant benefits to sections of corporate India. > Recollect that for more than three decades the West has not installed new > nuclear power reactors. Is India then actually going in for this deal to > bolster US economic interests? If the same amount of resources were to be > spent on generating power through hydro, thermal, gas, clean non-renewable > and solar electricity, India's energy augmentation would be many times > higher. Thus, the nuclear deal not only exposes India to greater > vulnerability, it drains a huge amount of our scarce resources. > > Apart from drawing India into the US strategic military alliances in the > region like the forthcoming joint military exercises with the US, Japan, > Australia and Singapore, and the effort at pressurising India's foreign > policy positions, this deal does not even guarantee full and complete access > to civilian nuclear technology as assured by the Prime Minister in the Rajya > Sabha. In fact, the 123 agreement forbids the transfer of dual-use > technologies. The assurances of uninterrupted fuel supplies also break down > if the 123 agreement is terminated. The 123 itself explicitly states that > the national laws will prevail upon termination, meaning, the Hyde Act. > India would be subjected to international safeguards in perpetuity even > after the 123 is terminated. > > These have substantive implications for India's sovereignty in the future. > Instead of meeting these issues, a web of fabrications based on so-called > extra-territorial loyalties of the Left is woven. It should be remembered > that the Left, on many occasions, set the agenda for modern India. Apart > from many others, militant peasant struggles at the time of our independence > brought the issue of land reforms on to the centrestage. Like also the issue > of linguistic re-organisation of the states, through the movements of > Vishalandhra, Aikya Kerala and Samyukta Maharashtra. > > In this current conjuncture in the post-bipolar Cold War world, the natural > tendency in international relations is for the movement towards > multi-polarity. US imperialism seeks to subvert this by imposing a > unipolarity under its tutelage. India's role in the comity of nations will > be determined by its championing of multi-polarity and its traditional > leadership role of the developing countries. Any alignment with US > imperialism to impose unipolarity will dissolve India's distinctiveness in > world politics. This is precisely what the Left seeks to prevent in the > interests of India and its people. > > Meet us on our arguments as we return to our beleaguered bishop. Badly > bruised by the media, at his first public lecture, he appealed to > mediapersons that his repertoire of anecdotes is limited as he comes from a > small Italian village, hence, these should not be reported. He was happy > that the media agreed. Only to be aghast, the next morning to read, "Bishop > tells many stories, all unprintable!" > ** > *Sitaram Yechury is a Rajya Sabha MP and member, CPI(M) Politburo.* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sunil at mahiti.org Tue Sep 4 23:43:41 2007 From: sunil at mahiti.org (Sunil Abraham) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:43:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The results of the ISO voting: Office Open XML is Disapproved Message-ID: <1188929622.15512.179.camel@localhost> Dear Friends, Good news for FOSS and Open Standards advocates across the world. However it is not over yet - there will be another attempt to force the world to use this broken standard in February. Please sign this petition:- http://www.noooxml.org/petition And please email, fax or call your respective national institution. http://www.noooxml.org/delegations Also please forward this to your friends. Thanks, Sunil http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070904082606181 The results of the ISO voting: Office Open XML is Disapproved - Updated: It's Official Tuesday, September 04 2007 @ 08:26 AM EDT Here are the results of the voting on OOXML: Disapproved. The official word is not yet released, but I have seen the results. UK disapproved, as did Ireland. So did Canada. So did the Czech Republic and Korea. Malaysia abstained (which is unexplained, since it was reported the technical committee voted No with Comments). Oddly, I don't see Hungary on the list. The 11 new P signups, Cote d'Ivoire, Cyprus, Ecuador, Jamaica, Lebanon, Malta, Pakistan, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkey, Uruguay and Venezuela, all voted to approve or approve with comments, except for Ecuador, which disapproved, and Trinidad and Tobago which abstained. What about the O members? Almost to a man, they voted to approve. What an amazing coincidence. Microsoft is telling it in their press release that 74% of all qualified votes approved: "The results show that 51 ISO members, representing 74 percent of all qualified votes, stated their support for ratification of Open XML." That is downright silly. If that were true, it would have been approved, not disapproved. All you need for approval is any number greater than 66.6% and not too many no votes. This press release is a masterpiece, no doubt about it. I'll show you the real figures. Update as of 11:54 AM: Here's official word in a press release from ISO. Here's the opening paragraph: A ballot on whether to publish the draft standard ISO/IEC DIS 29500, Information technology – Office Open XML file formats, as an International Standard by ISO (International Organization for Standardization) and IEC (International Electrotechnical Commission) has not achieved the required number of votes for approval. Microsoft says they expect to win approval after the February meeting, and you can see why they would think that, looking at the O members' votes. They are on the committee that handles the comments. Here's the story in PC World from Peter Sayer: Microsoft Corp. has failed in its attempt to have its Office Open XML document format fast-tracked straight to the status of an international standard by the International Organization for Standardization. The proposal must now be revised to take into account the negative comments made during the voting process. Microsoft expects that a second vote early next year will result in approval, it said Tuesday. Not to interfere with the positive spin or anything, but I thought they expected they'd win the first vote too. Here's Andy Updegrove: Last night, I projected that the OOXML vote in ISO/IEC JTC1 would fail. I now have confirmation from someone who has seen the official results that indeed the vote has failed. By way of indirect confirmation, Microsoft has issued a press release on the OOXML vote. The release is titled Strong Global Support for Open XML as It Enters Final Phase of ISO Standards Process, and subtitled, "Significant participation by National Bodies in ISO/IEC ratification process for Open XML; final decision expected in March 2008 at close of ballot resolution period." Microsoft is, of course, counting P and O members in one bunch. The actual percentages go like this: P-Members voting: 17 in favor out of 32 = 53.12% (requirement >= 66.66%) Member bodies voting: 18 negative votes out of 69 = 26.08% Disapproved Abstentions are not counted. So. There you are. Microsoft's truthiness. A loss is a win in their PR universe. By the way, despite what they say about ODF, there were no negative votes when ODF was voted on and approved as a standard. So what does it mean? Money can't buy you love, despite my fears shared by some. Not tech love, anyway. If you try to fast track an unbaked format, tech folks will notice it's not done yet. The Microsoft press release isn't fooling most professional journalists either. Here's the Wall St. Journal's coverage, for example. And here's Times Online's headline: "Microsoft suffers set back in key standards battle". A few are repeating the press release spin, however. That one is funny, because the writer actually thinks the vote was yes. He ends the article, "The NoOOXML campaign, which had predicted a "no" vote, has yet to respond." Duh, it was a No vote. I wonder how he will feel the next time he gets a Microsoft press release. I guess I'll put the press release here too, so you can compare it to the press coverage. This is one time when CompTIA is more forthright than Microsoft. The at least said they were disappointed "but not disheartened." Here are the real results country by country, again with the proviso that this is an advance peek, not yet the official announcement from ISO: **************************************** Country Member Participation Voted Argentina - IRAM - O Member - Abstention Armenia - SARM - O Member - Approval Australia - SA - P Member - Abstention Austria - ON - O Member - Approval with comments Azerbaijan - AZSTAND - P Member - Approval Bangladesh - BSTI - - Approval Barbados - BNSI - - Approval Belarus - BELST - O Member - Approval Belgium - NBN - P Member - Abstention Bosnia and Herzegovina - BAS - - Approval Brazil - ABNT - O Member - Disapproval Bulgaria - BDS - O Member - Approval with comments Canada - SCC - P Member - Disapproval Chile - INN - O Member - Abstention China - SAC - P Member - Disapproval Colombia - ICONTEC - O Member - Approval with comments Congo, The Democratic Republic of OCC - - Approval Costa Rica - INTECO - O Member - Approval Cte-d'Ivoire - CODINORM - P Member - Approval Croatia - HZN - O Member - Approval Cuba - NC - O Member - Approval Cyprus - CYS - P Member - Approval Czech Republic - CNI - P Member - Disapproval Denmark - DS - P Member - Disapproval Ecuador - INEN - P Member - Disapproval Egypt - EOS - O Member - Approval Fiji - FTSQCO - - Approval Finland - SFS - P Member - Abstention France - AFNOR - P Member - Disapproval Germany - DIN - P Member - Approval with comments Ghana - GSB - - Approval with comments Greece - ELOT - O Member - Approval with comments India - BIS - P Member - Disapproval Iran, Islamic Republic of - ISIRI - P Member - Disapproval Ireland - NSAI - P Member - Disapproval Israel - SII - O Member - Abstention Italy - UNI - P Member - Abstention Jamaica - JBS - P Member - Approval Japan - JISC - P Member - Disapproval Jordan - JISM - - Approval with comments Kazakhstan - KAZMEMST - P Member - Approval Kenya - KEBS - P Member - Approval with comments Korea, Republic of - KATS - P Member - Disapproval Kuwait - KOWSMD - - Approval Lebanon - LIBNOR - P Member - Approval Luxembourg - SEE - O Member - Abstention Malaysia - DSM - P Member - Abstention Malta - MSA - P Member - Approval with comments Mauritius - MSB - - Abstention Mexico - DGN - O Member - Abstention Morocco - SNIMA - O Member - Approval Netherlands - NEN - P Member - Abstention New Zealand - SNZ - P Member - Disapproval Nigeria - SON - - Approval Norway - SN - P Member - Disapproval Pakistan - PSQCA - P Member -Approval Panama - COPANIT - - Approval Peru - INDECOPI - O Member - Abstention Philippines - BPS - O Member - Disapproval Poland - PKN - O Member - Approval with comments Portugal - IPQ - O Member - Approval with comments Qatar - QS - - Approval Romania - ASRO - O Member - Approval Russian Federation - GOST R - O Member - Approval Saudi Arabia - SASO - P Member - Approval Serbia - ISS - O Member - Approval Singapore - SPRING SG - P Member - Approval with comments Slovenia - SIST - P Member - Abstention South Africa - SABS - P Member - Disapproval Spain - AENOR - P Member - Abstention Sri Lanka - SLSI - O Member - Approval Switzerland - SNV - P Member - Approval with comments Syrian Arab Republic - SASMO - - Approval Tanzania, United Rep. of - TBS - - Approval Thailand - TISI - O Member - Disapproval Trinidad and Tobago - TTBS - P Member - Abstention Tunisia - INNORPI - O Member - Approval with comments Turkey - TSE - P Member - Approval with comments Ukraine - DSSU - O Member - Approval United Arab Emirates - ESMA - - Approval United Kingdom - BSI - P Member - Disapproval Uruguay - UNIT - P Member - Approval with comments USA - ANSI - Secretariat - Approval with comments Uzbekistan - UZSTANDARD - - Approval Venezuela - FONDONORMA - P Member - Approval with comments Viet Nam - TCVN - O Member - Abstention Zimbabwe - SAZ - - Abstention Ecma International - - Comment Only -- Sunil Abraham, sunil at mahiti.org http://www.mahiti.org Director - International Relations Mahiti Infotech Pvt. Ltd. "Vijay Kiran" IInd Floor, 314/1, 7th Cross, Domlur Bangalore - 560 071 Karnataka, INDIA Ph/Fax: +91 80 51150580. Mob: (91) 9342201521 http://www.linkedin.com/in/sunilaabraham From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 08:38:02 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 20:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shuddha invites Pawan to bed In-Reply-To: <773e2c260709040135o2d1ddff1n2185081e1d1dbdab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33152.37906.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Vaissay (By the way) GK, why this interest in my SEX life? G Karunakar wrote: interestingly!... http://profiles.yahoo.com/kshmendra2005 Sex: No Answer On 9/4/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: thanks, is that enough, can we go to bed now. > > Shuddha > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 08:57:37 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 20:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Of ingrates and hypocrites In-Reply-To: <90354F27-DCF6-4417-8E31-75D3F7BE08CB@sarai.net> Message-ID: <960785.98401.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> INTERESTING PARALLEL: It takes years to make a Nation. It takes the blood, sweat and tears of many to build it and try and keep it secure. Yet, you will find in the Nation some who feed off it but are intent on attacking it and supporting those who want to break-up the Nation. These are the enemy within. These self-centered and self-obsessed ingrates will pontificate over the need to protect the integrity of a Virtual Nation ("intellectual community") they might have help build, but they will not hesitate to undermine the Nation that allows the "reality" of their existence to be functional. Kshmendra Kaul. Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: This is a list for discussion. Personal queries to individuals may be please not asked through the list. It takes years to build and make an intellectual community. It takes a few days to destroy it. Please treat the subscribers with some respect. warmly jeebesh On 04-Sep-07, at 11:48 AM, we wi wrote: > Hi Vedavati, > > You Did not answered my 2nd question on caste and > marriages in INDIA. Anyway may I know what your husband do? Can I > have his email address please? > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > --------------------------------- > Building a website is a piece of cake. > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. From abshi at vsnl.com Wed Sep 5 14:29:11 2007 From: abshi at vsnl.com (Shilpa phadke) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:59:11 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Films of Desire in Trivandrum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c7ef9b$1596eb50$b488050a@heaven> Creating Resources for Empowerment in Action, The South and Southeast Asia Resource Centre on Sexuality, The Kerala State Chalachitra Academy & FFSI (SW Region) INVITE YOU TO A SELECTION FROM Films of Desire: Sexuality and the Cinematic Imagination IN Tiruvananthapuram September 08, 2007 The Event Films of Desire: Sexuality and the Cinematic Imagination, focuses on Southeast Asian Cinema and will feature screenings of features, short films, documentaries, and experimental films that engage with ideas of sexuality in South and Southeast Asia. It is the travelling off-shoot of a larger event held in Neemrana, near Delhi, in March 2007. The Venue Kala Bhavan Theatre Vazhuthacad, Trivandrum Timings 10 am - 9 pm The Film Schedule: First Session: 10 - 11 am * SEA IN THE BLOOD, Richard Fung, 26 minutes / English / 2000 / Canada. * LOCUST, Victric Thng, 4 minutes/ Cantonese with English subtitles/2003/Singapore * CUT, Royston Tan, 12 minutes/ Singaporean English/ 2004/ Singapore * THE LAST FULL SHOW, Mark V. Reyes, 18 minutes/ Tagalog with English subtitles /2004/The Phillipines Second Session: 11:15 am - 1:25 pm * THE MATCHMAKER, Cinzia Puspita Rini, 10 minutes/ Indonesian with English subtitles /2006/Indonesia * LOVE FOR SHARE, Nia Dinata, 120 minutes/ Bahasa Indonesia with English subtitles/ 2006/ Indonesia. Panel Discussion: 2.30 - 4.30 pm Issues of Sexuality and Representation Third Session: 5 - 6:45 pm * BLOSSOMING OF MAXIMO OLIVEROS, Auraeus Solito, 100 minutes/ Tagalog with English subtitles/ 2005/ Philippines Final Session: 7 - 9 pm * BEAUTIFUL BOXER, Ekachai Uekrongtham , 118 minutes / Thai with English subtitles/ 2003/ Thailand The Organizers and Partners * Creating Resources for Empowerment in Action (CREA) (www.creaworld.org ) is a women's human rights organization based in New Delhi. * The South and Southeast Asia Resource Centre on Sexuality (www.asiasrc.org) enhances scholarship on sexuality in the region and is based at TARSHI in New Delhi. Trivandrum Partners * The Kerala State Chalachitra Academy (http://www.keralafilm.com), the only Academy for Motion Pictures in India works for the promotion of Cinema as a cultural expression. * FFSI (SW Region), one of the five regions of Federation of Film Societies of India (FFSI), is the association of film societies in Keralam. (http://www.ffsikeralam.org) About the Films: * BEAUTIFUL BOXER, Ekachai Uekrongtham , 118 minutes/ Thai with English subtitles/ 2003/ Thailand Based on the real life story of Parinya Charoenphol, a Muaythai boxer who underwent a sex change operation to become a woman. The movie chronicles her life from a young boy who likes to wear lipstick and wear flowers to her sensational career as kickboxer whose specialty is ancient Muaythai boxing moves which she can execute expertly with grace and finally her confrontation with her own sexuality which led to her sex change operation. * CUT, Royston Tan, 12 minutes/ Singaporean English/ 2004/ Singapore Royston Tan's Cut comes almost a year after his feature film 15 which was labeled by Singapore authorities 'threat to national security' and released locally with 27 cuts. In true Singaporean fashion, Cut responds to the issue of censorship with a heady blend of tongue-in-cheek humour and music. * LOCUST, Victric Thng, 4 minutes/ Cantonese with English subtitles/ 2003/ Singapore A momentary encounter evokes both a sense of fondness and bitterness of the heart. Moving and lyrical, the film's backdrop of Hong Kong heightens the emotive narration. * LOVE FOR SHARE, Nia Dinata, 120 minutes/ Bahasa Indonesia with English subtitles/ 2006/ Indonesia. The film is an intriguing portrait of polygamous lifestyles in contemporary Jakarta. A gynecologist Salma discovers, to her shock, that her husband has taken a second wife. She tolerates successive wives as 'a good Muslim wife' should, until an incident forces her to cater to everyone in his circle. Siti, a country girl, realizes too late that her uncle, who has moved her to Jakarta with the promise of sending her to beauty school, has other intentions. In a packed household, Siti's hope for survival rests in her growing intimacy with one of her uncle's other wives. And Ming, a waitress and material girl, contrives to become her Catholic boss' second wife. The lives of these three women from different classes and ethnic backgrounds intersect as the similarities in their stories are revealed. * SEA IN THE BLOOD, Richard Fung, 26 minutes/ English/ 2000/ Canada. An intensely moving personal essay about living in the shadow of illness, Sea in the Blood explores two of Fung's closest relationships - with his late sister Nan, who died in 1977 of a rare blood disorder called thalassemia (which literally means 'sea in the blood'), and with his lifelong lover, Tim, who has been living with HIV since 1980. * BLOSSOMING OF MAXIMO OLIVEROS, Auraeus Solito, 100 minutes/ Tagalog with English subtitles/ 2005/ Philippines Maximo is a preteen boy who lives a feminine life, loved and cared for by his widowed father and two teenage brothers who all lead lives of petty crime. He cooks, cleans, and sews for his family, and entertains his neighbours in the squalid slum by improvised fashion parades. Helped one day by a new neighbour, Victor, his life takes a drastic turn: he falls in love with the young, good-looking cop. Moreover, Victor angers the family by encouraging Maximo to aspire to a better life. * THE LAST FULL SHOW, Mark V. Reyes, 18 minutes/ Tagalog with English subtitles/ 2004/ The Phillipines A young man, just beginning to explore his sexuality, learns a painful first lesson about love after meeting an older, more experienced man at an underground Manila movie theatre. * THE MATCHMAKER, Cinzia Puspita Rini, 10 minutes/ Indonesian with English subtitles/ 2006/ Indonesia A simple story about Kay, an eclectic girl with both beauty and sweetness and a guy who seems to fall for her. Their eyes locked and she had him besotted since the first second he saw her, in his bookstore. The simple yet charming guy, named Darren owns a bookstore and she is quite a regular customer. A conversation over the book she ordered actually begins what we think as a start of a romantic journey. While, Kay is cooking a master plan which involves Darren in her own mind, they enjoy their times together. A week after their first meeting, Kay decides to launch her master plan. For more information on the films and their directors please see: www.filmsofdesire.org -------------- next part -------------- ***** NOTE: An attachment named winmail.dat was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From justjunaid at rediffmail.com Wed Sep 5 10:41:08 2007 From: justjunaid at rediffmail.com (junaid) Date: 5 Sep 2007 05:11:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel Message-ID: <20070905051108.13768.qmail@webmail17.rediffmail.com>   Since much of the discussion seems to be focused on how ‘Muslim’ rulers of the past destroyed Hindu temples or converted them into mosques and Khanqahs, I feel one should try to attempt to understand why this could have happened. Richard M Eaton (“The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760”, “Essays on Islam and Indian History”, “Temple Desecration and Muslim States in Medieval India”) provides the argument that the larger Hindu temples unlike mosques were not just places of worship and gathering. They acquired a larger significance by housing a certain deity who would be the font of sovereignty for the ruler and his subjects. For ‘Muslim’ rulers the font of sovereignty was Allah who doesn’t reside in the mosque. An invading army would not have accomplished the total defeat of the ruler and assumed sovereignty until the temple was desecrated. Eaton provides many examples where ‘Hindu’ rulers destroyed temples of the defeated rulers to claim sovereignty. It was the same with ‘Muslim’ invaders. I must, however, point out this argument will not hold for all the rulers. Obviously there are examples of rulers who possibly destroyed temples to plunder them, or just out of their faith. It is difficult to attribute intention to a certain ‘act’. But they are very rare, and not representative of a general trend. Among the ‘Muslim’ rulers of India starting from Muhammad Ghori to the Bahadur Shah Zafar, how many did really destroy temples? In Kashmir, too, a certain historical narrative picks out some ‘Muslim’ rulers as exemplars of Islamic vileness, while other ‘Muslim’ rulers are painted in a way as if their only occupation was to oppress ‘Hindus’. The same narrative glosses the pre-Muslim period as one of golden age and intellectual renaissance. This narrative, of course, draws its structure and inspiration from the larger Hindutva historical project currently in operation in India. It is unfortunate that we have to defend kings and rulers here, and not their subjects against them, but the nature of the discussion forces us to do so. If Zainul Abidin’s father Sikander was an unjust ruler, so was Avantivarman’s heir Samkaravarman who institutionalized ‘begar’. If Aurangzeb’s governor Iftikar Khan hounded Pandits, so did Ksemgupta murder Buddhists and plunder their viharas. Kashmir had depraved rulers in Didda, Kalsa and Harsa. I would not call them Hindu. They were only rulers, bad rulers. We can’t say what they would have done to Muslims had Muslims been their subjects. We just get some glimpses in what Narendra Modi’s government did to Muslims in Gujarat in 2002, or what Shiv Sena did to Muslims in Bombay in 1992-93, or what AASU did to Muslims in Nellie Assam, or what Indian government is doing to Muslims in Kashmir. The point is power. The kings, of whichever creed, have only occasionally been driven by their faith. The most important thing for them was to retain, boost and legitimize their power and authority. To this end, they did anything possible and practical—practical in the sense where a certain policy wouldn’t provoke too adverse a reaction from the subjects. In earlier times, the subjects probably were not united by any bond of community (except for a faith community, which was directed towards God and afterlife, and not actively against a ruler), and thus the bad ruler was not replaced by people but by another ruler, who might be welcomed by the subjects of the erstwhile king. The argument that Islam is intrinsically violent and intolerant of other religions is an ahistoric, simplistic and thus a convenient view, which betrays an aversion to complexity. There will always be loads of evidence and counter-evidence to an (such an) argument. Followers of a particular religion (or the version of it they think is authentic) will show as many differences in behaviour as followers of others. Can anyone say it is natural to have more ‘Muslim’ murderers than ‘Buddhist’? Or that non-violence strain gets curled into the Hindu DNA more easily. If there is a Gandhi, there is a Godse too. We still remember the Black July of 1983 when thousands of ‘Hindu’ Tamils were butchered on streets and fields in Sri Lanka, and many more in army operations afterwards. And we also remember ‘Hindu’ Tamils butchering ‘Buddhist’ Sinhalese for many more years to come. Well if it is all about religion we should speak of how Hindu soldiers killed thousands of people in India’s North East, or how Hindu and Muslim soldiers killed thousands of Sikhs in Punjab, and how Hindu, Muslim, Sikh and Christian soldiers gaily shoot Muslims in Kashmir, or how Christian, and non-believing soldiers have eliminated lakhs of Iraqis in the last few years. Talking of ‘Hindus’ spreading Buddhist ideas, it seems quite odd. (I should quickly mention the ‘Muslim’ Darashikoh who translated a multitude of Sanskrit manuscripts into Persian, which was later carried into Europe). If they were spreading these Buddhist ideas, did they not follow Buddhism themselves? Were they Hindus even after converting to Buddhism? Hindutva vadis will say Buddhism and Hindusim are one, but do the Buddhists too think so? Many Hindus converted to Buddhism, so did many Hindus and Buddhists later convert to Islam. Why is it difficult for some Pandits to accept that most Kashmiris became Muslims, and not live in a self-deceptive bubble that only Hindus are the original residents of Kashmir? How does acceptance of Islam make Kashmiris outsiders? Is the talk of ‘we’ and ‘they’ valid? Can today’s Kashmiri Pandit claim Kashmir’s ancient history more than a Kashmiri Muslim? Can he disown Kashmir’s medieval history as not his own? Mohamad Junaid From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 11:02:31 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Showkats last run In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <724853.76799.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Aditya Link posted was incomplete. It should be: http://www.thesundayindian.com/09092007/section.asp?sname='Cover%20Feature'&idate='09/09/2007' Aditya, if you know these people, please convey to them that the web page is poorly designed. The Cover Feature comprises of 7 connected articles that are not accessible by logical weblinks leading from one to the next one. Back and forth navigation has to be done. I am reproducing the 'feature' as a composite piece. It includes Yasin Malik's avowal of having 'turned' Gandhian. Kshmendra Kaul SHOWKAT’S LAST RUN No salt, please Now is the time for India to make inroads into Kashmiri hearts http://www.thesundayindian.com/09092007/storyd.asp?sid=2550&pageno=1 Six decades ago, a young Kashmiri boy befooled Pakistani tribesmen, giving them wrong directions for reaching Srinagar. By the time they realised this, the marauders had lost precious time and the Indian Army landed in Srinagar. Maqbool Sherwani was nailed to a Cross and shot dead by the seething tribesmen. Sherwani saved Kashmir for India. Then came a time when Sherwani’s legacy became an eyesore. Even his mentor-Kashmir’s tallest leader, Sheikh Abdullah, was not spared. Angry Kashmiris vanadalised his grave. Sixty years later, Kashmir is trying to lick its wounds. The wounds are too many, but they are healing gradually. It’s time to ensure that no further salt is rubbed. Showkat’s last run His colleagues thought no bullet had his name written on it. But that run would prove to be his last. Rahul Pandita and Zubair Dar tell the story of super cop Showkat Bhat, and those of four others, revealing the tangled picture of Kashmir http://www.thesundayindian.com/09092007/storyd.asp?sid=2549&pageno=1 Kashmir is like a Kafkaesque fantasy. A few hours before we land at the Srinagar airport, four Gujarati tourists have been killed in a terrorist attack. And yet, as we move along the Dal Lake, we see hordes of domestic tourists, enjoying shikara rides and Kashmiri cuisine. Young soldiers watch nervously, their fingers fixed on the trigger. Any passerby could be a suicide bomber. As we pass the Lal Chowk area, a young man fires at a BSF soldier, killing him on the spot. While we are in the valley, a dreaded Lashkar militant commander, Abu Talah is killed in an encounter. A senior police officer tells us how Talah and his men had strangled a man with the drawstrings of his pajamas. It is because of villains like Talah that Showkat’s story needs to be told. He is almost a part of the Kashmiri folklore, but no media has ever bothered to tell his story. For them, he is mere statistics. But Showkat’s life is much more than that. It is an unstated revolt against external interference in Kashmir. We bring you his story. Somewhere, somehow, the lives of four other Kashmiris form a trajectory with that of Showkat’s. Together, they form a curve. You can call that curve Kashmir. SHOWKAT’S LAST RUN The kashmiri cheetah One kick turned Showkat against militancy. Despite his father’s worries, long before he turned 28, he was an encounter specialist. And then... http://www.thesundayindian.com/09092007/storyd.asp?sid=2551&pageno=1 Showkat is running. He is dashing actually, like a cheetah, clutching an AK-47 assault rifle in his hands. No matter where a fidayeen attack takes place in Srinagar, Showkat is there. Even when he is under suspension for a short period, he cannot stop himself when the Passport Centre comes under a fidayeen attack. Within minutes, Showkat is inside, in defiance of superiors; a little later, he comes out, with a fidayeen’s body on his shoulders. He puts the body in front of his Inspector-General. Showkat seems invincible. No bullet could have had Showkat’s name on it, say his colleagues. It is nine months after Showkat’s famous sprint that we enter into the sanitised environs of the police headquarters in Batmaloo, Srinagar. Inside a room, where senior police officials are discussing a recent encounter, Showkat is running, this time on a glossy calendar. One foot in the air, and another bouncing back from its toes, moving inside Lal Chowk’s Standard Hotel building, where two fidayeen militants have laid a siege. That is Showkat’s last picture, his last run. There were bullets which got to kiss him, eventually. But then, Showkat did not die behind a sand bunker or steel plate. Exposed to the militant’s firing line, he was hit while moving to safety an Asst Commandant of CRPF. He breathed his last in the lap of his colleague & friend, Inspector Vishal Singh. Inside the police headquarters’ office, Sanaullah Bhat (above) does not betray any emotion. He sits in one corner, staring at his son’s picture. A gardener by profession, Showkat was the youngest of his three sons. “It was a norm during the early 90s that families had to offer their eldest son to militants,” says Sanaullah. In 1994, Showkat’s maternal uncle was killed by militants as he refused to toe their line. The family was still in mourning when a dreaded militant of the area came knocking at their door. “He kicked Showkat as he lay sleeping, shouting that my eldest son should join them or else he would destroy us,” remembers Sanaullah. Showkat, who had just passed the ninth standard then, could never forget that kick. Two years later, he joined the Special Task Force. From 1996 onwards, Showkat became a permanent fixture at encounter sites. Inspector Vishal remembers every single moment of that final encounter. “I was taking rest in my room when Showkat came running, saying there had been a fidayeen attack in Lal Chowk. We immediately rushed in a bunker van, with Showkat jumping into it before me.” After occupying the top floor of the hotel where two Lashkar fidayeen were hiding, Vishal and his team first evacuated six civilians trapped in various rooms – students who had come to join a B.Ed. course at the local university. Then they began drilling holes in the ceiling, and entered inside. The militants, they found out, were operating separately. “Once the crossfire began, there was so much smoke inside that we could not see anything; we just kept shooting,” says Vishal. After a while, one of the militants secured a vantage position and intensified his attack. Due to heavy firing, one of the police teams decided to shift to another location. Showkat helped everyone move, and as he came out finally, the fidayeen, who was hiding behind a staircase, fired a burst at him... and that was it! Remembers one of Showkat’s colleagues, “Once, Showkat fired in the air after a senior officer accused him of theft; that day he was very angry.” He was put under suspension, and order which was revoked after his display of courage during the Passport Centre encounter. “He used to hate Pakistani militants. He would say: we can’t become slaves of foreigners,” remembers Sanaullah. “I learnt so much from Showkat, he was my teacher. It’s difficult to lose a friend like him,” says another colleague, Rajesh Kumar. “We haven’t lost him,” reacts an officer, pointing towards Showkat’s last picture, “there he is.” Yes, he is there, continuing to inspire with his valour. Running. Dashing actually. Like a Cheetah. SHOWKAT’S LAST RUN Split-wide-open man Whenever there are casualties from firing or handgrenade attack, Maqbool is summoned. 30,000 calls later, he is a tired man... http://www.thesundayindian.com/09092007/storyd.asp?sid=2552&pageno=1 As Showkat’s body lay on a steel stretcher inside the police mortuary, his colleagues waited for one man. “Where is Maqbool, call him,” a senior police officer directed his subordinate over a cellphone. A team was dispatched to Maqbool’s home. An hour later, a man walked down the corridor, muttering something to himself. He stumbled a bit, and after his sallow eyes met those of a police constable, he asked: “Where is the body?” It is after much persuasion that Maqbool agrees to meet us. Some of his colleagues suggest that we should take a bottle of whisky along. “He cannot move his finger these days without taking a swig from his bottle. You see, his job is like that,” says another staffer at the mortuary. Finally, after evading us for days, Maqbool meets us at the mortuary. Maqbool is the autopsy man of Kashmir, the lone paramedic who conducts postmortem for the police. Not a day has passed since 1990, when he didn’t have a body waiting for him. “Dr. Kachroo persuaded me to touch a body of a teenager for the first time during my training. I was terrified; cold sweat ran down my spine,” says Maqbool. Thirty thousand autopsies later, Maqbool is on the verge of a breakdown. “I lose my temper very easily over trivial issues. I fight with my family and my colleagues. I wish I could quit this job; it is not fit for a human being,” he says. In the past two decades, all cases of unnatural death have come to Maqbool. Sometimes, just a few body parts wrapped up in cloth; sometimes, a young girl killed in a hand-grenade attack, her intestines gouged out; and sometimes, a young man with his brain spilled outside his skull. “It is most difficult to conduct autopsy on naked bodies of young women, who would normally not reveal even a single strand of hair to an outsider,” says Maqbool. There is one incident that Maqbool can never forget. On October 21, in 2002, as Maqbool cut open the body of his namesake, police constable Mohammad Maqbool Wani, he saw the heart in motion, though his lungs and liver were badly damaged. Maqbool immediately raised an alarm, and Wani was shifted to the hospital. He is still alive, and in touch with the man who saved his life. Maqbool is fifty now. He is on medication – to ward off stress and to avoid infection from decomposed bodies. Does he remember his first autopsy after violence broke out in J&K? “Yes, it was Aijaz Dar, the first Kashmiri youth killed in an encounter with the police, in September 1988.” He pauses and then continues, “I know my job will be over once the violence ends. So be it; I don’t want to see dead bodies now.” He closes his eyes. The body count may have decreased, but it has not stopped. Until that happens, Maqbool will remain in demand whether he likes it or not. SHOWKAT’S LAST RUN His revolutions He took up guns for the sake of change. Today, Yasin Malik is a changed man himself... http://www.thesundayindian.com/09092007/storyd.asp?sid=2553&pageno=1 Five months before Maqbool put his knife across Aijaz Dar’s body, four young men crossed over the Line of Control for arms training. On July 31, 1988, they carried out their first operation – two bomb blasts that rocked Srinagar, one outside the telegraph office, and the other near the golf course. A year later, the men carried out their first killing – a local BJP leader was shot dead outside his house. Kashmir would be plunged in violence, with many young men joining the ‘armed struggle’. People would dance on the streets, hug the gun-toting boys, and declare that they would collect next month’s ration in ‘Azad Kashmir.’ Much water has flown down the Jhelum since 1988. Thousands of people have died and Azadi is still a distant dream. Two of the four men, who crossed the border, are dead now – Ashfaq Majid and Hamid Sheikh died in the early days of insurgency. Only Yasin Malik and Javed Mir carry the legacy of the famous HAJY group (named after the initials of the four men). Both Malik and Mir have shunned the path of violence, and have instead picked up the political flag. It is on the 19th anniversary of the ‘armed struggle’ that we catch up with Yasin Malik in Central Kashmir. It is a village called Vatrihyel. “This area was once known as the Tora Bora of Kashmir,” whispers one of Malik’s aides. Vatrihyel is the 1,600th village that Malik is visiting as a part of his Safar-e-Azadi (journey of freedom) campaign. He has been on the road for 75 days. The campaign begins after sunset and ends well after midnight. “In 1988, we realised that there was no space for argument in a non-violent movement. Gandhi was successful because of genuine political space provided by the British, something which India never offered to Kashmiris,” says Malik. Malik is a chain-smoker; there is always a Gold Flake cigarette between his fingers. Years of sustained police interrogation have left him a frail man. A valve of his heart is damaged. He suffers from facial paralysis on one side. A slap from a cop damaged one of his eardrums. He has been so far arrested more than 200 times. “There was a time when I weighed only 42 kilos,” Malik lets out a feeble smile. The militant of yesterday is now trying to connect with the masses, like Gandhi. “It is actually Mao who said that revolution begins from villages,” Malik clarifies. Travelling atop a truck, and accompanied by his men from the JKLF, Yasin Malik addresses the waiting crowd. “We have proven people wrong who said that Kashmiris cannot fight,” he tells the gathering. Malik asks them not to play into the hands of politicians. “Don’t go to political rallies like hired Bihari labourers who throng them. Mufti Syed and Farooq Abdullah talk like mujahids here, but outside they talk differently,” he tells them. In every village, where his group makes a stopover, Malik reads out the names of the ‘martyrs’ from that village. Basheer Ahmed Dar, Manzoor Syed... from Shoolipora village. His men are carrying kerosene torches. “A mashaal (torch) has spiritual connotations. It also signifies the composite culture – the sufi tradition of Kashmir,” says Malik. In his speech, he describes his meetings with Musharraf and American & British officials. He also recites a couplet of the Urdu poet Iqbal, which talks about the struggle of a flame against strong winds. During that night’s last stopover, a woman hands over a bowl to one of Malik’s men. “Please give it to Malik sahib,” she pleads. A neighbour of hers, a young girl, climbs the truck and garlands Malik. After retiring in a tent erected on the grounds nearby, Malik shares the contents of the bowl with the TSI team – choicest pieces of chicken. After dinner, he is smoking again, as usual. “There is a big chance for the Indian government to involve Kashmiris in the peace dialogue. I am charting a non-violent course now, but Yasin Malik will become irrelevant if New Delhi does not grab the opportunity,” says Malik. What about Kashmiri Pandits? “Pandits are very much a part of Kashmir. They have to come back. There have been some mistakes during the struggle, but we will rectify them,” he says. How does he describe the moment when he crossed over for the first time? Malik does not answer for a while and then we chance on a deep smile. “It was pure romance,” he ruminates. It’s time to stub out the cigarette, and light another... SHOWKAT’S LAST RUN The bat lady She addresses the boys of her age as beta. As Sakina teaches them how to wield the bat and how to make the ball work, betas listen aptly... http://www.thesundayindian.com/09092007/storyd.asp?sid=2554&pageno=1 While Malik was romancing the gun, a young girl in downtown Srinagar refused to play with dolls her parents bought her. Her own romance would begin with a leather ball, and, as her parents realised years later, it spun off into a career. As we meet Sakina Yousuf at the grounds of the Kashmir University, she is watching a cricket match. Sakina is of almost the same age as the boys in the university cricket team. But when she enters the ground, wearing her track-pants, the friendly shouts are reduced to a hush. The boys greet their coach. “It all began in my locality, when I would reject dolls, and instead join the boys for a game of cricket. By the time I was in 11th, I was a pro,” says Sakina. In one of the matches against another school, Sakina scored 55 runs. And she was not out! At that time, there was no coach for cricket in Srinagar. Realising her potential, one of her teachers suggested that she join the National Institute of Sports to train as coach. “When I told this to my family, one of my uncles created a ruckus. He said girls don’t go about playing cricket; he said it was a boy’s bastion,” says Sakina. But it was her father, an employee with the Telecommunications Department, who supported her. “I made my father understand, in bits and pieces. Once he was convinced, there was no looking back,” she remembers. Her days at the National Institute of Sports taught her to say goodbye to shyness. “When I came out, I was completely changed; I was confident of what I was doing and what I needed to do...” It was in June this year that she was temporarily appointed as the coach of the boys’ team at the university. “On the first day, I just observed the boys; I was wearing my usual salwar-kameez.” The next day she chose to wear the battlegear – her track-pants. “I was a bit nervous, but I didn’t let it show on my face,” she divulges. Initially, the boys were apprehensive but once they realised that Sakina really meant business, they went along with her. “One of the boys had a problem with the grip. I showed him the technique, and he has overcome that handicap,” says Sakina. As the match is on, she addresses some of the boys as beta. And surely, the betas listen. How has it been playing cricket in Kashmir during the peak of militancy? “Oh, I have never known the old days, which my parents keep talking about. I have always known crackdowns and cross-firing incidents. So, for me, the condition has never been so good as it is now,” shares Sakina. Then she adds quickly, “In fact, the curfew worked in my favour as I could play cricket on empty streets.” “She is the best,” says one of her betas. “Chak de Kashmir,” shouts another. SHOWKAT’S LAST RUN Humour in the time of war It’s difficult to laugh in Kashmir. But Majboor tried, and now people laugh when he passes through a metal detector... http://www.thesundayindian.com/09092007/storyd.asp?sid=2555&pageno=1 There are not many people in Kashmir who would share Sakina’s enthusiasm for curfew. Those days meant absolute shutdown of schools, colleges and offices. Shops would be closed and people were confined to their houses for days together. People were increasingly slipping into depression. Humour turned extinct and laughter was almost forgotten. Except that one programme on Radio Kashmir – Zafraan Zaar (a riot of laughter), written & anchored by humourist and theatre artist Ghulam Ali Majboor would manage to bring a smile in the lives of thousands of Kashmiris battered by insurgency. Majboor is essentially a Bhand (traditional Kashmiri theatre) artist. Now 55, he says his first performance came at the age of six. “Bhand theatre was, once upon a time, the Bollywood of Kashmir,” says Majboor. But after 1947, the popularity of the Bhands declined. They turned into drum-beaters for various political parties. Militancy dealt the final blow. One day, the militants came and warned Majboor that they considered theatre a sin! They ordered him to burn all his costumes and destroy the musical instruments. “I told them that if tomorrow they achieved their goal, they would have to call Bhands for celebration. And if Bhands had no costumes and musical instruments, how would they perform? They were so happy that they left immediately,” remembers Majboor. In one of his performances, Majboor plays the role of a king, who, along with his prime minister, has to pass through a metal detector in order to reach his throne. His army chief arrives in the court with bruises all over his body. Upon being asked who did this to him, he replies, “The Ikhwanis (renegade militants).” Immediately, the king and other courtiers begin to tremble. “This performance left the people in splits,” says Majboor. As we are about to say goodbye, he dons a gown worn by his forefathers, and poses for a photograph. He has a miniature axe in his hand, as kings in Bhand performances carry. So that humour does not turn extinct. And laughter never forgotten. Never again in Kashmir. Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: *Showkat's last run* ** *His colleagues thought no bullet had his name written on it. But that run would prove to be his last. Rahul Pandita and Zubair Dar tell the story of super cop Showkat Bhat, and those of four others, revealing the tangled picture of Kashmir * Kashmir is like a Kafkaesque fantasy. A few hours before we land at the Srinagar airport, four Gujarati tourists have been killed in a terrorist attack. And yet, as we move along the Dal Lake, we see hordes of domestic tourists, enjoying shikara rides and Kashmiri cuisine. Young soldiers watch nervously, their fingers fixed on the trigger. Any passerby could be a suicide bomber. As we pass the Lal Chowk area, a young man fires at a BSF soldier, killing him on the spot. While we are in the valley, a dreaded Lashkar militant commander, Abu Talah is killed in an encounter. A senior police officer tells us how Talah and his men had strangled a man with the drawstrings of his pajamas. It is because of villains like Talah that Showkat's story needs to be told. He is almost a part of the Kashmiri folklore, but no media has ever bothered to tell his story. For them, he is mere statistics. But Showkat's life is much more than that. It is an unstated revolt against external interference in Kashmir. We bring you his story. Somewhere, somehow, the lives of four other Kashmiris form a trajectory with that of Showkat's. Together, they form a curve. You can call that curve Kashmir. Link: - http://www.thesundayindian.com/09092007/section.asp?sname='Cover%20Feature'&idate='09/09/2007' *-- Aditya Raj Kaul Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. From avinashcold at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 11:19:25 2007 From: avinashcold at gmail.com (Avinash Kumar) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:19:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Final Solution Revisited: A request from Rakesh Sharma Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: Final Solution Revisited: A request from Rakesh Sharma *Please forward this appeal to other like-minded institutions, organisations and individuals as well*. Over the last couple of years, some of you have spoken to me about revisiting Final Solution and making a new film – *Gujarat: 5 years after the carnage*. You'd be happy to know that I have been filming in Gujarat for the last several months for the follow-up film. The filming has been done in Modasa, Idar, Kalol, Halol, Godhra, Lunawada, Baroda, Chhota Udepur, Himmatnagar, Ahmedabad, Limdi, Bhavnagar, Amreli, Rajkot etc. We've already done a bulk of our filming, though we plan to continue filming till the election results are announced and the new Assembly is sworn in. We hope to offer a comprehensive film sometime next year. However, all of us in the team also feel that we must release at least a short version of the film *pre-elections*to enable activists, NGOs and others to intervene during the electoral process by holding screenings and discussions. We aim to finish these in early/mid October and make them available on VCD. These early versions would be available only in Gujarati as they are most likely to be used in Gujarat during November 2007. I write to you to seek your assistance. While I have so far managed all the filming and editing related expenses personally (thanks to a grant from the Singh Foundation and damages received from NYPD!), I'm now seeking completion funds to be able to release the version in October. Broadly speaking, we propose the following: a. To approach a broad network of individuals and like-minded organisations and individuals for funding assistance. b. To invite contributions not exceeding Rs 10,000 from a single organization and Rs 5,000 from an individual. c. Against the contribution, the individual/ organisation will get a credit in the film. The title would normally read - "*Funding support from*" followed by the full list. d. The individual/ organisation will also get VCD copies of the film against this contribution. The proposal is to offer * Contribution (individuals only): Rs2000; VCDs offered: 21 * Contribution (organizations/ individuals): Rs 5000; VCDs offered: 51 * Contribution (organizations only): Rs 10000;VCDs offered: 120 We hope that these multiple copies would be distributed by the concerned organisation/ individual free to their activists, friends and colleagues so they can be circulated and screened widely, especially in Gujarat before the forthcoming elections. The VCDs offered are total number of discs - the first film is on 2 VCDs while the farmer film is on a single VCD (ie, each set is 3 VCDs). Details about the proposed films are enclosed below. I request you to lend your support to the films under production. Please write to me personally at the earliest (rakeshfilm at gmail.comor PO Box 12023, Azad Nagar, Mumbai 400053). With Gratitude Rakesh Sharma website: www.rakeshfilm.com blog: rakeshindia.blogspot.com ps: Please do not circulate to the Press - we'd like no speculation or publicity till the films are formally released. The films currently being edited for an October release deal broadly with the following: * * *After the Storm:* Five years after the carnage, what is the state of Relief and Rehabilitation? The Supreme Court's intervention in carnage-related cases has dominated media headlines, but what really is the true story behind the victims' quest for Justice? Away from major cases like the Naroda Patiya massacre or Gulberg or Best Bakery and Pandarwada, what is the fate of other FIRs and court cases filed by the victims? The film goes beyond highlighting the plight of the Muslim community in Gujarat. It probes other dimensions of the issue by specifically looking at the patterns of arrests and litigation. A majority of those charged with rioting, arson, murder etc are either tribals or Dalits and OBCs. An analysis of those arrested from 32 police stations in Ahmedabad suggests that of the 1577 detainees, only 30-odd were upper caste! Are these footsoldiers victims too? Cynically recruited, then discarded, left to rot in jails, what do the 'perpetrators of the violence feel today about the VHP and the BJP? The film is likely to be in two parts of approximately an hour each, both complete in themselves (to enable a separate showing of just one part, if necessary) and may possibly be split into two films. *Seeds of Sorrow:* Though the BJP romped home with a brute majority in the 2002 assembly elections, it suffered an electoral reverse during the 2004 Lok Sabha elections. The BJP managed to get 14 seats while the Congress won the other 12. The result is attributed in part to agitations by the Sangh's own Bharatiya Kisan Sabha, which was then agitating against the power tariff hike. In many pockets, it even asked its members to abstain from voting, which perhaps also explains the far lower turnout for the Lok Sabha elections. Over the last several months, we have been tracking what can only be termed as an unreported story - Farmer suicides in Gujarat. We have primarily been filming in the Saurashtra region, though suicides are not confined to this belt. A few months ago, we got queries filed under the RTI Act to dig up details of all suicides. Though the government denied us the data initially, after appeals and hearings, some details have now been formally handed to us. While Modi recently told the Gujarat Assembly that only 148 farmers have committed suicide in Gujarat, the data handed to us is for 366 suicides! We have also managed to dig up the data for all claims paid and denied under the Kisan Bima Yojana that cover farmers' accidental deaths. Of the 1200-odd claims, several have been denied – we are now probing the grounds of denial (eg, was it actually a suicide reported as an accident to help fudge the figures?) This film would also deal with the issue of farmer debts, BT cotton cultivation, power tariff, irrigation (where is the promised Narmada water?) and the opposition to SEZs Rajula and Jasapara. We are aiming to finish a version in early/mid October. To begin with, there would only be one version of the film - Gujarati, possibly with English subtitles. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 11:22:03 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Of ingrates and hypocrites In-Reply-To: <960785.98401.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <993614.61987.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Why this much argument going on my mail to reader list? Regarding other mails and comments I am not responsible for that. I never try to dishonour anybody here. Honorable members of this list should understand that. As vedavadi is the member of this list and I read all her articles just tried to interact with her and grab the views. Indian society from Kashmir to kanyakumari, Gujarat to Assam is facing a major problem on CASTE AND MARRIAGES. This is reality. Hence I asked her. There are no personal matters in this and abuse. If any of the members feel so I personally apologize them. And I hope vedavati can understand my point of view and respond further. Kshmendra Kaul wrote: INTERESTING PARALLEL: It takes years to make a Nation. It takes the blood, sweat and tears of many to build it and try and keep it secure. Yet, you will find in the Nation some who feed off it but are intent on attacking it and supporting those who want to break-up the Nation. These are the enemy within. These self-centered and self-obsessed ingrates will pontificate over the need to protect the integrity of a Virtual Nation ("intellectual community") they might have help build, but they will not hesitate to undermine the Nation that allows the "reality" of their existence to be functional. Kshmendra Kaul. Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: This is a list for discussion. Personal queries to individuals may be please not asked through the list. It takes years to build and make an intellectual community. It takes a few days to destroy it. Please treat the subscribers with some respect. warmly jeebesh On 04-Sep-07, at 11:48 AM, we wi wrote: > Hi Vedavati, > > You Did not answered my 2nd question on caste and > marriages in INDIA. Anyway may I know what your husband do? Can I > have his email address please? > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > --------------------------------- > Building a website is a piece of cake. > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 11:30:15 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 23:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Of Sadia and Rahul and Quality and Acknowledgement Message-ID: <532903.90121.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> This is to acknowledge the quality of the dialogue between Sadia Fatima and Rahul Asthana. They talked 'to' each other and rarely if ever did one talk 'at' the other or talk 'down' to the other. Nor did they mock each other. Each was quite obviously 'listening' to what the other was saying and trying to understand the point of view being expressed. Disagreements were thrashed out but more importantly 'agreements' were gracefully expressed and accepted. Thank you Sadia and Rahul. Kshmendra Kaul --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. From mayur.suresh at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 12:12:32 2007 From: mayur.suresh at gmail.com (Mayur) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 12:12:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Film screening at ALF on Friday 7th September. In-Reply-To: <98bea7e00709042341i227b640evc7726e2eec1cbfd0@mail.gmail.com> References: <98bea7e00709042341i227b640evc7726e2eec1cbfd0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4def3c470709042342o284a43e5n667baf59e37388c3@mail.gmail.com> the art of forgetting Director: Lisa Kois Duration: 56 minutes Time: 6:00 pm Date: Friday, 7th September 2007 Venue: Old ALF office, 122/4 Infantry Road, Opposite Infantry Wedding House, Bangalore. The independent documentary film, the art of forgetting, uses the power of memory to break through the silence and statistical anonymity that characterizes dominant discourses of war. Filmed in Sri Lanka between 2002 and 2005 during an internationally brokered ceasefire, the art of forgetting is set within the context of the filmmaker's journey from the northern-most tip of Sri Lanka to the southern-most tip. It loosely traces the overlapping histories of armed conflict in Sri Lanka through the stories of ordinary people met along the way.The art of forgetting is not intended to chronicle, analyze or explain Sri Lanka's recent history. Simply, it serves as a vehicle to carry and convey peoples' stories to a broader audience. It is an invitation to remember... to feel... to reflect... to discuss. It is not an answer. It is a question.While the art of forgetting is rooted solidly in the experience of Sri Lanka, it speaks to the universal experience of suffering and survival of those who find themselves caught in cycles of political violence and war. The film will be followed by a discussion You can view a facilitation guide prepared by the filmmaker at http://www.brandeis.edu/programs/Slifka/vrc/recasting/art_of_forgetting.pdf We hope to see you there!! Regards, ALF From shveta at sarai.net Wed Sep 5 12:15:31 2007 From: shveta at sarai.net (Shveta) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:15:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Slaughterhouse Message-ID: <46DE508B.9040504@sarai.net> Dear All, This text, "The Slaughterhouse", is by Arish Quraishy. Arish, 20, was associated with the Cybermohalla lab at LNJP for a few months, then left to work at the slaughterhouse, only to return a few months later with this text. He continues to work and be associated with the LNJP lab now. The text has been translated from hindi. warmly shveta ---------------------- The Slaughterhouse by Arish Quraishy Today is my sixteenth day. It's 4:00 AM, at home everyone is still asleep. Everyday at this hour I wear my dirty work clothes, put a fresh set of clothes in a bag and set out for the shop by quarter past four. I read the /kalma/ under my breath each day as I go. First, I take a three wheeler to the market. The driver takes five passengers in one vehicle and takes five rupees from each passenger. I always sit between two people so that I am protected from the cold. But that day luck was not on my side. One old uncle wanted to take my place so he wouldn't feel cold. He said he wasn't feeling well and asked if I would let him sit in my place. I shifted towards the side which was open to the outside. It was 4:20 in the morning, it was very cold, and the three wheeler was moving fast. It was quite dark. Because of the speed, the route of 24 minutes was covered in 10 minutes. I got off at the goat market. Everyone paid the auto driver five rupees in change and went towards their work. The goat market is a big market. Lakhs of goats, sheep and buffaloes are cut here from three in the morning. But this is not my destination; I'm going to the hen market. The Kasabpura police station lies in the way. This place has several names. Someone calls it Kasabpura, someone Sadar police station, someone Idgah. On the way, three men were passing with forty goats. One man pulled a goat by its ear; the goat bleated loudly, holding back, falling, then moving. The remaining thirty nine goats followed quietly behind him and the two remaining men beat them with sticks from time to time to make them move in line. I wondered how dragging one goat by its ear can control an entire army of goats. The goat right in front can sense it's going to be killed and so it struggles. One refuses to move because of fear of death and the goats behind follow him for fear of getting their ears pulled. I reached my godown, put the bag with my clothes in one place and went down to the shop. There are many shops that sell chicken on this street. The surroundings are spacious. There are several buildings and people who have homes here have raised their height over time. The godown in which I work is managed by my close relatives; they own two big godowns on this street. The godown has several nets; each net holds about sixty hens. If all the nets get filled, the remaining hens are let loose on the ground. One godown can hold roughly 7000 hens. Walking towards the godown I saw the truck on the road in front of it was filled with crates with hens. Two men had climbed on top of the truck and were taking down the crates one by one. Men in pairs would take hold of the crates from below and throw them on the ground with such force that even the hens sleeping in them would wake up. Each crate weighs around 18 to 24 kilos. After all the crates are brought down, all the men begin pulling the hens out from them. There were fourteen of us in all that morning. Four were from Nepal, seven from Bihar and three, including me, were locals. The way the hens are pulled out of the crates is by holding four in one hand and two in the other and throwing them to a side. Once a crate is emptied, it weighs ten kilos. When the crates begin to get empty, one man climbs up the truck again and as everyone passes him back the crates, he pulls them up and lines them up in the truck. In this way, we fill up both the godowns before sunrise. It was our challenge to all the set-ups along the entire road that if anyone else manages to finish this work before us, we would give them Rs 10,000. The entire road knew no one was as quick as us. One of the men from Nepal told me this; he is my friend, his name is Chi Chi. By 7:00 AM we have between 300 to 400 hens ready in the net for cutting. Two drums are kept next to these nets. As the hens are cut, they are thrown inside these drums. One person holds the hen, the other cuts it. The knives used are so sharp that if someone's finger comes in the way it gets cut to an extent that it needs stitching back together. A drum holds about 150 hens. After it fills, it needs to be turned over and emptied. The one who cuts the hens also empties the drums. That day I was really out of luck, because I was the one cutting the hens. The man from Bihar who was holding down the hens for me said, “Arish, empty the drums.” Now I have emptied drums with 40 to 60 hens before, but I've never emptied one with 150 hens. I went and stood near the drum. Immediately, the smell – no not the smell but the vapours from the drum – they hit my brain. I felt dizzy. I turned to this man and said I was feeling dizzy. He told me not to worry, that this happens in the beginning, that I would get used to it in time. I said ok. The drum was filled till the top. Hens had fallen one on top of the other, all of them wet with the red blood; mouths were open, eyes shut and the veins from the necks protruded out. There are two doors to the shop. One, which is the main door, is made of glass. Customers come in through it and meat readied for sale is also brought into the shop through it. Next to it, by the wall, is quite a big fridge in which frozen hens are kept. Across from it is a counter where the munshi sits and records all transactions. A huge weighing balance is kept there; we call it /kaanta/. Knives of different sizes are kept by the /kaanta/. A man sits there and cuts and weighs the hens. All the labour sits beneath his bench on a wooden platform in a row. One quickly cuts off the wings, claws and tail end of the hens, which is once again thrown onto the floor. Another picks up one hen at a time and peels it like a banana. These men are so skilled that they can unclothe a hen, chuck its casing to a side and fling the hen next to the man sitting on the bench above them in ten seconds. It was the man again, “What are you thinking? Empty the drum or the consignment will get spoiled.” Saying “sorry, sorry” I titled the top of the drum towards the shop and tried to lift it from below; but I couldn't do it. I said, “/Yaar/, I can't lift it, it's too heavy for me.” He said, “OK, I will hold it from this side and you hold it from the other.” We lifted the drum together and turned it over. It took us more than one minute to do this. All the men in the shop began to cheer to encourage me. Then they clapped and poked fun at me, “Wow Arish, you are one powerful guy.” I laughed. I was thinking, all the effort was this other man, the real muscle power – why are they giving me accolades? I am so thin and he is so well built. I said, “Come on, let it be!” Then I stepped out onto the road. There is a hotel next to our shop. Nihari is prepared here in a huge vessel, by lighting wood under it. It gives out so much smoke that it makes your eyes smart. All this smoke makes its way inside our shop because of which we have to keep the door to the shop closed and also keep telling the people working in the hotel, “Come on, use a fan to direct the smoke in the other direction.” At around 9:00 AM, I have to set off with a slip to the /chacha/ who make tea. There is a small noting pad in our shop and it has a slip which says '14 cups of tea and 14 rusks'. I remind someone, “/Bhai,/ it is time for tea”, and am handed this slip and I go to the tea shop. The tea shop is near the other godown. /Chacha/ always wears /kurta-pyjama/ and covers his head with a /topi/. His shop is very small. It has a huge saucer for frying which is always filled with milk and next to it lies a table with a gas burner on it. /Chacha/ makes tea on a frying pan on this burner. Cups, glasses and saucers for serving tea are kept close by. There is a young boy in //chacha//'s shop who cleans the table and washes the used cups, glasses and saucers and arranges them back in their place in a single row. I handed the slip to /chacha/ and said, “Send the tea and the rusks over to our place quickly.” /Chacha/ said, “The boy has just stepped out on a chore and it will be some time before he returns. Why don't you wait and take the tea with you. ” I sat down. Just then a man came and sat next to me. He looked drunk from the previous night and it seemed to me he had come to /chacha/'s shop to drink tea and get over his hangover. He was very quiet and his body was swaying. Then he turned to me and said, “Can you give me some water to drink. I am feeling a bit dizzy.” I gave him water, he thanked me, and I said it was no problem. Then he became quiet again. By then /chacha/ had started preparing our tea. What I like about //chacha/ /is that he always uses fresh tea leaves so his tea turns out well. Sitting there I suddenly thought for a moment, “If only I was here by myself and not here on work. I would have had no worry nor anxiety about work, and would have sat here comfortably drinking my cup of tea, watching others doing their work. There, someone is out in the sun, pulling hens out of crates and cutting them, someone is packing them, someone is taking the packed parcels and loading them onto rickshas, someone is passing on his way to somewhere else, someone is rushing past. Cars, rickshas, trucks, scooters – all these pass by here and it's always crowded between 8:00 in the morning to 2:00 in the afternoon...” Tea was ready and I took the tray with the glasses of tea in one hand and the rusks in the other and head back towards my shop. On seeing me, everyone stopped work and got up to wash their hands to have tea. Each person picks up one glass and one rusk and settles down with them in their own corners. I wash my hands. Hands must be scrubbed very well because there is no soap. After drinking tea we will all get down to pulling the outer skin off the hens and our hands will get dirty again. The way to peel a hen is very specific. First hold the hen in one hand and pull one of its legs. It's skin will tear. Insert four fingers under the skin and pull with abrupt force. The skin will come off from one side. Then do the same thing with the other leg. Now turn the hen over and break its head from the neck. Push your fingers into its stomach and pull out its intestines and discard them to one side. I keep thinking Babli, Nasreen or Neelofar would find this very difficult to look at. Because in the beginning I had found it very difficult as well and I had thrown up. I didn't like being in this environment at all. But work is work, after all, and I had to endure. I didn't have any options. By noon, all the work is done and cleaning begins. We collect everything that has been discarded with /phawdas/ and collect them into wheelbarrows. These are then taken to the big garbage dump behind the Idgah. I have never seen such quantity of garbage as I have seen in this garbage dump. We finish doing this by 12:30. The shop is washed by spraying water from the taps by using one meter long hose pipes, soap and brooms. Blood and tissue that remains stuck to the walls is scraped off with knives. No one walking into our shop after 1:00 PM will be able to make out the place was so dirty in the morning. By afternoon, the place doesn't look like a shop but a showroom. Then everyone goes to the godown to bathe. After bathing, those who live there will cook. They eat chicken and rice everyday. Someone takes a bath immediately, and someone goes to sleep first. Everyone is very tired by this time. I bathe, get into my fresh set of clothes and make my way to the market to catch a ricksha ride to Paharganj. From there I take a bus home. At home, I eat and lie down to sleep, thinking, “Why do the hens have to be thrown around so much?” Arish // March 2007 // LNJP Lab Translation 1.0 // July 2007 From theunderscoredhood at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:10:55 2007 From: theunderscoredhood at gmail.com (Raheema Begum) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:10:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Patriots for a United Indian Subcontinent Message-ID: *'Na jaane kaun si mitti vatan ki mitti thi'* *- *'Hazaar Baar ruke', from the film Mammo. *'How many deaths will it take to be noticed that too many people have died?'* - Bob Dylan, Blowing in the Wind. As long as there will India and Pakistan, this fight will never stop. Too many times has this been said. More than 2000 people were killed, slaughtered, burnt in all the violence in 2002 in Gujarat. The mainstream in Gujarat is still in denial. Millions of people died when the subcontinent was torn apart into Bangladesh, India and Pakistan. Bomb blasts continue to claim innumerable lives. People from each side are hurt. The real reasons behind these blasts are still elusive. We all guess: terrorism, creating communal unrest…Perhaps all these are true. For the Hindu, Muslim and Christian Sikh, Parsi and whatever person of faith caught in the middle it is just a matter of living with dignity, with the ability to practice your faith and go on with your life which matters. For as long as these borders remain, our psyche will always be divided, although we are not divided in our history, culture and consciousness. *We need to do away with these borders*, and let us start dreaming now. Because politicians are people and it is people who create opinion. It is people, us who can put an end to communal violence. *September 10 to September 16th* ,2007 is the week for *blogging for a united Indian subcontinent*. Voices from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh coming together to say why and how a borderless Indian Subcontinent should and can be created. Here is what you have to do: Blog about why *you* want or don't want an undivided Indian subcontinent. And how you think this is possible. What the future holds in store for an undivided Indian subcontinent, what could be possible… And there is more coming. So let us create a coalition to take these voices far and wide. Blogging for a united Indian Subcontinent Week. September 10 to 16th, 2007. This is a collaborative event. If you want to design posters, hand-outs, invites…the more the merrier… Suggestions and queries welcome. *Let's make it happen!* The One State Solution Week, September 10th to 16th 2007. From indlinux at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:19:09 2007 From: indlinux at gmail.com (G Karunakar) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:19:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] nq Message-ID: <773e2c260709050149w57cf7497p66889b3fb474d6c9@mail.gmail.com> none.. just to take a measure of nonsense quotient. a metric to quantify the ability of an individual to generate nonsense... using the simple experiment - introduce some, & then see how much more gets generated! typically its known that humans have high degree of it & the quality & standard of nonsense generated, has been on the rise (& getting literary too)! new records set dont last longer than a millisecond... blah blah blah.... blah! now lets spare the list from more nonsense! On 9/5/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Vaissay (By the way) GK, why this interest in my SEX life? > > > > G Karunakar wrote: > interestingly!... > http://profiles.yahoo.com/kshmendra2005 > Sex: > No Answer > > On 9/4/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: thanks, is that enough, can we go to bed now. > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From sen.gargi at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 19:12:43 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:12:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? In-Reply-To: <001201c7ede3$d9045f50$dfba41db@MRAY> Message-ID: My dear M. Ray, I am getting exceedingly fond of you and so you merit a separate reply. I hope all is well in your world? Health, wealth, stealth? M. Ray, one of the problems with language is that it is not Santa Claus. You can¹t simply wish and conjure up meaning, like perhaps you can produce toys (with some help from conspiratorial parents of course. Are yours called ARKP?) Especially not for words that already mean something ­ otherwise why have dictionaries? - lets replace those with wish-lists. So you can not wish meaning onto words that mean different things than what you wish, or wish away their meaning either. Wish lists can not be that long/ wrong/ strong/ whatever. So you can not believe in no religion and [...] use the term 'secular' in Indian context [to] mean the pro-islamic pseudo-seculars only . However desperately you may wish it were so, secular is just not a synonym for pro-Islamic. Likewise Hindu isn¹t a synonym for anti-Islamic. Awfully sorry to disappoint. But don¹t get me wrong. I love the notion of a wish. It has a happy connotation. A bit like whistling while cleaning shit. In my mind it is closely connected to another I love: imagination. Because for me a wish without imagination is like decaffeinated coffee or fat free ice-cream. Why bother to indulge if not for the kick? Otherwise you may as well abstain. And between these two words ­ indulge abstain - my personal vote always goes to indulge. So I simply can not understand people who drink decaf coffee or accept fat free ice cream and live to tell the tale with no shame. I do not understand but can allow for taste. Even though Bordieu has argued that taste is a social construct I can accept that taste is also an individual¹s choice. Only, if I allow that I must in turn be allowed to be bored. So I am bored with decaf coffee, fat free ice cream, and lack of imagination. The last invariably leads to bad arguments. And then you are left with no other option but to repeat the same thing, over and over again, in the hope that the mantra of repetition will magically make your wish come true. Awfully sorry to disappoint about that too. Still, I like the pseudo-secular bit. See I don¹t fully understand what secular really means. Its a shadowy word for me. Not-completely-in-the-light-as-yet word. So to add a pseudo has interesting possibilities. Pseudo as in not genuine, or shady (shadowy?): Shady-shadowy. Or shadowy-shadowy. Take your pick. Gargi shady-shadowy Sen Sen On 9/3/07 10:03 AM, "MRSG" wrote: > Dear Gargi, > I have read your long letter but I do not want to argue here. I mentioned > the reasons in my earlier mail. Personally I believe in no religion and when > I use the term 'secular' in Indian context it means the pro-islamic > pseudo-seculars only. However my only point was that everyday hindus are > crossing the border and entering India from Bangladesh because of islamic > onslaught. This is simple fact. Enough data on this is available in net. And > you and others can decide your/their course of action on that. You may > ignore, rejoice, take up some action or simply carry out intellectual > acrobatics. That's your choice. > Thanks > M Ray > > From sen.gargi at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 19:08:57 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:08:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pleasures and pain, habits and a game In-Reply-To: <001201c7ede3$d9045f50$dfba41db@MRAY> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, Tarun, Jeebesh and others, Thank you all. The recent posts have been absolutely breathtaking in the breaths, depths and Œintellectual jugglery¹. And I enjoyed every breathless moment of reading and had some serious fun too. Buddhism and Brahmanism sum up rather succinctly some of my own recent preoccupations. I do not dare to call them questions yet because to ask the right questions needs a degree of knowledge/ engagement I am still to achieve. So I am deeply moved Shuddha by your ability to draw that huge a canvass in your post on Bengal- Kasmir, Buddhism- Brahminism and tell such an amazing story. I have been vastly amused, excited and entertained by many of the dualities thrown up recently on this list Buddhism ­ Brahmanism, Panditocracy ­ democracy, paradox ­ truth, pleasure - pain, inclusive - exclusive and the enchanting Bengal ­ Kashmir, hyena ­ crocodile, toilet cleaner - tome reader, and to this list I can add my very own confluence of pleasure and pain, literally and figuratively: Meghna ­ Firdaus. So maybe the visions are not so divergent, or maybe they are or can become. Who cares? The bond of humour amongst hyenas is possibly stronger than any of correctness. Shudhha, I tried to remember when did I consciously begin to like hyenas. I think for me it was the conversation between Mandar Bose, Lalmohan Ganguly and the Ambassador car traversing dusty tracks of Rajasthan in search of the Golden Fortress in the film Sonar Kella. You know where M. Bose says - Hyena to moshai China te hoi [the hyena my dear is to be found in China] - thereby revealing to the gentle Jatayu his true nature of a felon. I think I heard the mocking hyena laugh in the background score of this scene. Zainab, While I am bored to near death with the lazy and obnoxious arguments of ARKP I am not asking them to stop for they have every right to speak. I and many more, only underscore boredom: with their utter lack of imagination and their childish insistence on behaving like Winchester repeaters. And why should I or anyone want them to stop? Look at what they have provoked. See what all is crawling out of the woods ­ lurkers on the list, communist apologist, unapologetic casteists, Khadi diaperists, more definitions than you can shake a stick at. So stay hooked and entertained. But for now I want to move back into a conversation I began a few days ago with some young people on this list. I find engaging with them a great deal of fun. And for the last few days I am having serious fun on this list. For instance I realised even as I write, on this list too, B and B - my personal preoccupation - has reappeared as S.H.I.T. and ARKP. I have to acknowledge the correct positioning of ARKP even though I miss the intellectual vigour of the true Brahmin: that robust ability to construct reasoning with razor sharp logic, that seductive, spell binding logic that can make thought and rationale turn unto each other and fall asleep. Still, the youth beckon and this female hyena must run off to frolic with the young, to hold, scold and laugh with the hope they have meanwhile re-guarded and the fear that they haven¹t. Dear ARKP, Let us play a game, no not traitor-traitor, this one is infinitely simpler and called walk-the-thought. But before that I want to make my position clear to you and to this list ­ simply because I am a new entrant in the visible (oh, how meanings evolve) section of this list. I believe that what happened to the Kashmiri Pundits was wrong. I believe no one ­ people/ law/ state/ nation ­ no one has the right to deprive another of life, no matter how compelling be the reason. Because life is precious. Because life must be lived, fully, thoughtfully, joyfully. Yudhishthira had replied to the yaksha that the greatest paradox of life is that death is inevitable yet people live as though they will live forever. I am fine with that. Also his conclusion that the ultimate aim of life is happiness. Being happy though requires courage, a courage different in nature than some of you have been talking about on this list and elsewhere. In the same vein let me add I think the right to speech is nearly as significant as the right to life and attempts to stop or erase speech is a bit like erasing life itself. And K. before you again ask me to define the territorial boundaries of the the right to free speech please can you look for a better champion than pornography? For between you and me, I should be the one with higher levels of anxiety being that I am a young mother (a mother of a young person i.e. and so my love-hate affair with motherhood is still young) and yet I am blissfully non-anxious. Still if you really want an answer to the question you asked me, please read some earlier Sarai postings or locate some truly excellent text by people far more learned than me like Shohini Ghosh and Lawrence Liang. And if you can not find them ask the citation expert/ the secret-sen to point you to the right direction. I am hopeless at citations, numbers, borders and maps. Dear K., in the first part of your post what you object to and accuse the filmmaker Sanjay Kak of ­ his intentions ­ has been argued out by the midnight-tome-reader with crystal clear precision in his post of the thread: By R.J. Rummel in his reply to Tapas Ray. The point being that no one can enter the mind of another to understand intentions. He says some more but you can read that yourself. As there is nothing more to be said there allow me to walk you to another route. Lets play a game. Called Walk-the- Thought. Let us suppose for one moment that all that you accuse the filmmaker Sanjay Kak of is true, I know it to be false, but let us suppose anyway. My question is, so what? Let us suppose he begged, borrowed, stole, genuflected and also lied. So what? Artists have been know to do all this and much more for art. Artists have sold bodies and soul too. Theirs and of others. So what? And why should I map his Œfound footage¹ with his audience ­ celebrity/ activist/ anyone? Its all so clearly outside his art. Unless of course you can prove, yes prove, that he Pushed the Lemmings Off the Cliff, shot them dying (with the camera), returned to make a scientific claim that Lemmings are naturally conditioned to commit suicide. The analogy in Kashmir though makes even my head reel for what would you accuse him of and where would you start? Anyway, as long as he didn¹t Push the Lemmings Off the Cliff but for the sake of his art did all that you accuse him of. So what? Walk on with me my friend K. and let us take another step. Let me tell you about another artist, another filmmaker I have already talked about in this thread, Ritwik Ghatak and his terrible habits. It is said he had many, many bad habits. A particularly annoying one was of borrowing money and not returning. He borrowed so much that people, friends and foe alike - you see he made no discrimination - wanted to avoid him like plague, but his perseverance was of truly heroic proportions and he continued to plague friends and foe alike. Now my point is that when you go to see a Ghatak film, do you see his habits or do you see his art? Do you care that he drank himself silly and perhaps to death? Let us now take the next step K. Let us suppose Ghatak borrowed money from you, let us also suppose it is money that you could ill spare. He took it, frittered it away on say alcohol he can barely hold in in any case and disappeared. And now his new film is showing at a hall near your house. What will you do? You are angry, hurt, humiliated and pained. But what can you do? You can sulk and refuse the see the film ­ in any case you are not going to see the man till he returns to borrow money again. You can protest out side the theatre with placards saying ­ Ritwik return my money, you are a rascal. You can also bring sympathisers to stand in with you. You can write endlessly to the editors of newspapers, talk to the media, go public loudly and clearly. And you would be perfectly justified But what will you do about his new film? Will you see it or not? Now dear K. the next step ­ a small side step to simply satisfy my curiosity. Let us suppose you decide, what the heck, I may as well as see the film. So you walk to the theatre, buy a ticket/ cadge a pass, and walk in. When the film is about to start, when it begins to get dark around you, when you are finally alone with yourself and the possibility of encountering art, you have a choice K. to become what you wish: a cinema-viewer or a money-lender. What do you choose? Its really all about you only. But depending on what you choose to be, you¹ll see exactly that. So you might see another side of Ghatak, see his struggles with identity and history, his passions, his crazy mix of the glaring reality and sublime surreality, and much much more beside ­ and you can see all this, maybe even fall in love with the artist, and still not like the Rascal very much. That¹s possible and ok. But you might also choose to be the money-lender and miss all this and simply watch out for the expenses the Rascal incurred. You know in the scene in Subarnarekha you can wonder did he rent/buy or build the airplane. You can see the entire film like this. So, what you will see K. is your choice totally. And if you tell me about your money-lending vision, I might be appalled, feel sorry for you, passionately argue/ scold/ try to influence and do many things beside, but at the end of it all I will have no choice but to let you be in peace with the image you keep in the landscape of your mind. Like you will have to let me be too. The choice is all yours dear K-themoney-lender or K-the-cinema-viewer and you¹re welcome to choose Ritwik the Rascal or Ritwik the Artist. Are you with me ARKP? Now my problem is, over all these months, I have failed to see the connection between the two. What kind of reasoning tries to create and sell Ritwik as a Rascal in order to erase Ritwik the Artist? What kind of a mind tries to stop screening the film because Ritwik is also a Rascal, then unable to make himself heard runs off to snitch to the cops, unable to do much there either runs back crying - Ritwik gets away with all because he had infamous connections, and then finally accuses Ritwik of the penultimate crime: loving a land that is not inscribed with in the accidental cartography (oh how I love copy-paste) of India? All this to do what? Stop a film from being screened. You see I love pictures, in any form. As pictures, photos, as films, also as words. I find pictures talk to me more than just words. So when words etch pictures I am absolutely delighted. And I love it when the picture is incomplete, then it gives me the possibility to fill the blank in any which manner that I please. So the sliver of moon excites me more than the full one. (Although I must say I quite began to like it when a poet from Bengal drew it as a different picture, as a cooked/ burnt roti for the hungry ­ apologies to the Bongs for my terrible translation skills.) The sliver can have a star, a sickle, both, none attached to it or become a smiley, the bow of bow-and-arrow fame, the front of the steam engine, many many things. So can you imagine Aditya how appalled I am when on your website I see your photo with the caption ­ Aditya Kaul in a thoughtful pose? Why do you need to tell me what to think/ feel? Why not let the picture speak for itself? What do you fear I will think Aditya? And why do you fear my thinking? Anyway, I think you are perfectly within your rights to use pictures in anyway that you wish. It is your prerogative. But please can you stop trying to stop others from showing theirs too? Even if you are totally appalled? K. in your post you also talk of pain and inscribe it within a sharply delineated boundary, barbed wired and watch towered. To enter this I can¹t be a progeny of a refugee ­ must be one myself, I certainly can¹t be a Bengali as my ancestors came to live in cultures that reflected closely what they had to leave behind, I can¹t be ignorant about Kashmiri Pundits, I can¹t trivialise, and I can¹t do intellectual jugglery. So, in effect, to connect to your pain I can only be a Kashmiri Pundit which I am not. But tell me dear K. how long do you want to live like this? Wired out and fenced in? You have spent 17 years already. How much longer do you need in order to rest your pain in peace? You see my fear is that were you to reach the gate of the kingdom with two sentries that Jeebesh talks about, for a moment lets imagine its the kingdom of heaven wherever or whatever that may be, and to be executed means to be sent to hell, what will you answer when asked why should you be allowed to enter? If you say ­ I have lived in pain for 17 + x years you will certainly be executed. On the other hand if you said ­ since I was 33 years old I was painful, you might be allowed entry. Dear ARKP, if you live incessantly in the terrain of pain, you simply risk becoming painful. Do you really want that? Won¹t you rather come and play with us. And ARKP, why get so angry with anti-nationalists? What is wrong with not believing in borders? Or refusing fixated identities? Look at the fun we have while we play traitor-traitor. Look how we shift and change, become this and that. What is wrong with that? And what can your nationalism offer me, apart from your finger wagging i.e.? Try and remember your childhood and answer what would you choose as a child ­ finger wagging or running with the wind? K. dear, one last step and I promise this to be the last. Lets change directions and go south. There lived a Brahmin who had truly nasty habits. You see he liked to destroy Buddhist Viharas. I mean he didn¹t actually break one himself but he extolled the virtues of destroying the infidel and his people did the rest. It is a different matter that he went on to copy-paste the structure of viharas into four mathas in four direction, it is another matter that the Vihara that held the fledgling ideas of a Republic now turned into exclusive terrains. But this same Brahmin argued very well. And reposed his trust on logic/ rationale over every other kind of faith. He called the ability to reason: discrimination or viveka. And he worked out a fascinating structure of ideas ­ a sort of a How To Do It Yourself manual - to develop discrimination. He said ­ the tree I see exists because I see it. And when I see the tree, what I see is its image ­ the tree can¹t come into my eyes you see, only its image can. And only when the image of the tree reaches my eyes, it comes into existence. So I am, that is why the tree is. (You got it till here? ­ it¹ll get a little complicated now so make sure you¹ve understood well.) Then he goes on say that suppose Vishnu of the 1000 names came and stood before me, he does not exist till his image enters my eyes. (Got that?) Then he says suppose Dracula (I think though that he used a different name) stands in front he doesn¹t exist till I open my eyes and allow his image to enter. Then he goes on to say that nevertheless the tree, Vishnu and Dracula exit in the terrain of my mind because we carry genetic memory (he used a different language though), feel emotions and are ruled by senses and the mind can create images out of these. And he says - learn to discriminate between images ­ the one I see because its in front and the one that¹s already there in my head, because the one in my mind is kind of shaped by memory, emotions, conditioning and the effect of sense. And to learn to discriminate I must learn to see ­ see both and see the difference ­ and learn to tell them apart. That ability to discern, in a nut shell is the first step towards realising the power of discrimination. He goes on to talk of many subsequent and necessary steps to become a discriminator in this How To Do It Yourself manual is called Vivekachudamani but my story doesn¹t end there. The entire manual is written in rather beautifully crafted verse with brilliant cadence, and is also set to music. So to me the Vivekachudamani is Art of an amazing order: where rationality and creativity come together to create a text that is compelling, spell binding, seductive. I have finished dear K. but before we end the game and walk home, please answer a question of mine. I, a resident of earth, have inherited three works of art: Jashn-e-azadi, Komal Gandhar and the Vivekachudamani. Maybe I like all three, maybe I dislike all three. But all three are crafted by men with ­ let us now not quibble ­ pretty nasty habits some that you and I can not forgive. My question is which should I choose K.? The habit or the art? And the questions go on....but you can now go home. Gargi Sen PS: I just realised that I made a mistake in my listing of the ARKP ­ that too the realisation came at the end of such a long mail. You see I had started off with two Rs ­ Rahul and Rashneek but in my utter delight in the coinage ARKP and excitement to join the game, I forgot the second R. I was at a bit of a loss as to what to do but I think there is a way forward. Rashneek dear, can you run off and play with the toilet cleaner? The games you play are so much better up his alley. So that in my posts the R of ARKP stands for Rahul who is not a Kashmiri Pundit, but then, nor am I, and we are still playing, are we not? And I promise to try and play a different tune each time we play dear ARKP. From info at toshare.it Wed Sep 5 19:16:35 2007 From: info at toshare.it (INFO SHARE FESTIVAL) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:46:35 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] RECALL - SHARE PRIZE 2008 Message-ID: <01a001c7efc3$2e4f5240$6a01a8c0@pcbox> Competition Announcement: Share Prize 2008 Introduction Piemonte Share announces the fourth edition of the Festival by calling a competition Piemonte Share Award . See registration form. Registration SHARE AWARD : DIGITAL ART PRIZE 2008 Competition announcement Art. 1 Subject :Piemonte Share Festival announces the second edition of the Share Prize 2008 for digital art. The competition jury will award a prize of ?2,500.00? to the work (published or unpublished) which best represents experimentation between arts and new technologies. The candidates for the prize (a short list of a maximum of 6 competitors) will be guests at the 4th edition of the Share Festival, taking place in Turin March 2008 at the Accademia Albertina di Belle Arti, Turin. In order to be declared winner of the prize, every artist has to take part in the 4th edition of Share Festival, by preparing his or her work of art, to be properly evaluated by jury and public. The organization is available at offering all the costs regarding the preparation of the 6 selected works as well as travel and accommodation expenses for the artists, and, possibly, the prize itself". Nomination of 6 candidates for the prize: by November, 2007. The announcement will be published on the following website: www.toshare.it The winner will be announced in March 2008 during the award ceremony at Share Festival. Art. 2 Aim The prize aims to discover, promote and sustain digital arts. Art.3 Entry Conditions The contest is open to any Italian and foreign artist using digital technology as a language of creative expression, in all its shapes and formats and in combination with analogical technologies and/or any other material (i.e. computer animation / visual effects, digital music, interactive art, net art, software art, live cinema/vj, audiovisual performance, etc.). Each artist or group can enter up to 3 works. Artists who are part of a group participating in the contest may also enter up to 3 individual works. Participating entries must be registered on the site www.toshare.it using the registration form. Registration and description of the competition entry forms should be either in English or Italian; English is preferred. Art. 4 Conditions of exclusion The competition is not open to: - Jury members, organising body, their partners or relatives up to the sixth degree inclusive - employees or collaborators of Jury members or announcement committee - anyone who drew up the competition or any associated document - any person working as a civil servant in Public Institutions or Administrations unless it is specifically permitted by the administration of affiliation - unfinished projects or work Art. 5 Deadlines a. Entries must be registered on the site www.toshare.it by using the registration form only. b. Registration must take place by 12.00 pm on 30 September 2007. Entries after that date, for whatever reason, will be excluded from the competition. Art. 6 Required documents Candidates must fill in the on line registration form available at www.toshare.it Applications must contain the following information: - Title of the work - C.V. of artist or artists (in case of new groups of artists, each member's C.V. is necessary) - Concise description of the work (max. 150 words). - URL documents concerning the work itself, where further details of the work can be found (see Art. 6bis) - No material must be sent (paper, DVD, CD, etc) in addition to the specific requests of the public notice. Art. 6bis Further details on URL document Every participant must provide further details from those given in the information on a specific web site. It must contain: - Description of the work (max 500 words) explaining the main concept and technologies used - Images (.jpg) and/or video (.avi) and/or audio (.mp3) of the work - C.V. of artist or artists (in case of new groups of artists, each member's C.V. is necessary) NB: competitors are responsible for the design and costs incurred in producing the Web Site regarding the work for the contest. Art. 7 Selection jury The jury, meeting in non-public sessions, will select 6 works among those presented for the contest within November, 2007. The candidates for the prize (a short list of a maximum of 6 competitors) will be asked to take part in the 4th edition of the Share Festival, taking place in Turin March 2007 at the Accademia Albertina di Belle Arti, Turin. The announcement will be published on the following website: www.toshare.it The winner will be announced on March 2008 during the award ceremony at Share Festival. The jury is composed by: Bruce Sterling (writer and journalist, Austin) - chairman Piero Gilardi (artist, Turin) Anne Nigten (managing director, v2 e DEAF, Rotterdam) Oscar Abril Ascaso (curator Sonar, Barcelona) Stefano Mirti (architect, Interaction design Lab, Milano) Art. 8 Information The Contest Information offices are located at Association The Sharing premises. General coordination: Manuela De Caro tel. +39.011. 588.36.93 faxes: 0039.011.83.91304 info at toshare.it Art. 9 Property and rights concerning projects and selected works With the registration to the contest, the authors of the winning works grant The Sharing Association the right to publish and reproduce the works, totally or partly, as part of cultural promotion. Art.10 Publishing this notice This notice is made up of three pages and will be published via Internet at the following address: www.toshare.it. News will also be available via all interested parties. ? two thousands five hundreds gross taxes and national insurance contributions Manuela De Caro SHARE FESTIVAL experiences in digital cultures www.toshare.it From info at toshare.it Wed Sep 5 19:21:21 2007 From: info at toshare.it (INFO SHARE FESTIVAL) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:51:21 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] RECALL - SHARE PRIZE 2008 Message-ID: <01c101c7efc3$d8766f10$6a01a8c0@pcbox> Competition Announcement: Share Prize 2008 Introduction Piemonte Share announces the fourth edition of the Festival by calling a competition Piemonte Share Award . See registration form. Registration SHARE AWARD : DIGITAL ART PRIZE 2008 Competition announcement Art. 1 Subject :Piemonte Share Festival announces the second edition of the Share Prize 2008 for digital art. The competition jury will award a prize of ?2,500.00? to the work (published or unpublished) which best represents experimentation between arts and new technologies. The candidates for the prize (a short list of a maximum of 6 competitors) will be guests at the 4th edition of the Share Festival, taking place in Turin March 2008 at the Accademia Albertina di Belle Arti, Turin. In order to be declared winner of the prize, every artist has to take part in the 4th edition of Share Festival, by preparing his or her work of art, to be properly evaluated by jury and public. The organization is available at offering all the costs regarding the preparation of the 6 selected works as well as travel and accommodation expenses for the artists, and, possibly, the prize itself". Nomination of 6 candidates for the prize: by November, 2007. The announcement will be published on the following website: www.toshare.it The winner will be announced in March 2008 during the award ceremony at Share Festival. Art. 2 Aim The prize aims to discover, promote and sustain digital arts. Art.3 Entry Conditions The contest is open to any Italian and foreign artist using digital technology as a language of creative expression, in all its shapes and formats and in combination with analogical technologies and/or any other material (i.e. computer animation / visual effects, digital music, interactive art, net art, software art, live cinema/vj, audiovisual performance, etc.). Each artist or group can enter up to 3 works. Artists who are part of a group participating in the contest may also enter up to 3 individual works. Participating entries must be registered on the site www.toshare.it using the registration form. Registration and description of the competition entry forms should be either in English or Italian; English is preferred. Art. 4 Conditions of exclusion The competition is not open to: - Jury members, organising body, their partners or relatives up to the sixth degree inclusive - employees or collaborators of Jury members or announcement committee - anyone who drew up the competition or any associated document - any person working as a civil servant in Public Institutions or Administrations unless it is specifically permitted by the administration of affiliation - unfinished projects or work Art. 5 Deadlines a. Entries must be registered on the site www.toshare.it by using the registration form only. b. Registration must take place by 12.00 pm on 30 September 2007. Entries after that date, for whatever reason, will be excluded from the competition. Art. 6 Required documents Candidates must fill in the on line registration form available at www.toshare.it Applications must contain the following information: - Title of the work - C.V. of artist or artists (in case of new groups of artists, each member's C.V. is necessary) - Concise description of the work (max. 150 words). - URL documents concerning the work itself, where further details of the work can be found (see Art. 6bis) - No material must be sent (paper, DVD, CD, etc) in addition to the specific requests of the public notice. Art. 6bis Further details on URL document Every participant must provide further details from those given in the information on a specific web site. It must contain: - Description of the work (max 500 words) explaining the main concept and technologies used - Images (.jpg) and/or video (.avi) and/or audio (.mp3) of the work - C.V. of artist or artists (in case of new groups of artists, each member's C.V. is necessary) NB: competitors are responsible for the design and costs incurred in producing the Web Site regarding the work for the contest. Art. 7 Selection jury The jury, meeting in non-public sessions, will select 6 works among those presented for the contest within November, 2007. The candidates for the prize (a short list of a maximum of 6 competitors) will be asked to take part in the 4th edition of the Share Festival, taking place in Turin March 2007 at the Accademia Albertina di Belle Arti, Turin. The announcement will be published on the following website: www.toshare.it The winner will be announced on March 2008 during the award ceremony at Share Festival. The jury is composed by: Bruce Sterling (writer and journalist, Austin) - chairman Piero Gilardi (artist, Turin) Anne Nigten (managing director, v2 e DEAF, Rotterdam) Oscar Abril Ascaso (curator Sonar, Barcelona) Stefano Mirti (architect, Interaction design Lab, Milano) Art. 8 Information The Contest Information offices are located at Association The Sharing premises. General coordination: Manuela De Caro tel. +39.011. 588.36.93 faxes: 0039.011.83.91304 info at toshare.it Art. 9 Property and rights concerning projects and selected works With the registration to the contest, the authors of the winning works grant The Sharing Association the right to publish and reproduce the works, totally or partly, as part of cultural promotion. Art.10 Publishing this notice This notice is made up of three pages and will be published via Internet at the following address: www.toshare.it. News will also be available via all interested parties. ? two thousands five hundreds gross taxes and national insurance contributions Manuela De Caro SHARE FESTIVAL experiences in digital cultures www.toshare.it From surojit369 at yahoo.co.in Wed Sep 5 20:31:02 2007 From: surojit369 at yahoo.co.in (SUROJIT SEN) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:01:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] IFS '07 Displacement of prostitutes - 6th posting - Aug 2007 Message-ID: <968381.34183.qm@web8613.mail.in.yahoo.com> HI All, Sorry for the late. This is my 6th posting. Prostitutes in Chandannagar : Prankrishna Datta in his Bodmaes Jobdo has described the condition of Sonagachi in Calcutta in the wake of the CDA 14 of 1868. While in Calcutta ‘most of the brothels are lying vacant, Chandannagar is fast thriving ( as a shelter of sonsgachi’s prostitutes. Because Chadannagar’s red light area was 150 years old at that time ). In Calcutta, house owners of the brothels are crying hopelessly, whereas in Chandannagar house-rent has shot up from Rs.10 to Rs.50 ( a month ). It also gave a fillip to the activities of the lumpen in Chandannagar.’ With this background in mind , let us now have a look at the Chandannagar scenario. The oldest red light areas in Chandannagar were located at khejurtala near lakshmigaunge bazaar and at Hathkhola by the river Ganga. None of these centers now exists. The khejurtala centre closed down about 20 years ago around 1987/1988. It has a history which dates back to 1696 when the French founded their fort in chandannagar. It also coincided with the influx of a large number of people from Bardhaman invaded by the rebel Zamindar Shova Singh of Medinipur in 1693. Various occupational groups belonging to the lower rung of society constituted this migrant population. Besides, there were soldiers in the fort; they held mostly from south India. The khejurtala brothel came up to entertain these people in the early 18th century. The cultural milieu in Chandannagar, relatively free from Brahminical Puritanism, was not very conservative. Hence the newly founded city did not witness any local resistance to the growth of this red light area. The customers comprised family drop – outs, soldiers, the French employees and the businessman who settled in Chandannagar from outside. A section of the rich aristocratic class also used to patronize the prostitutes. In addition to them, there were some absentee landlords from Calcutta, both Bengali and non Bengali, who bought houses and garden- houses in Chandannagar during this time. They also joined the rank of customers. As we have already noted, Calcutta witnessed a flood of publication of satirical sketches in connection with the Act14. Of them, Panchali kamalkali by Aghorchandra Ghosh describes the condition of prostitutes in chandannagar during this period. In a pithily satirical tone, Ghosh writes in verse that invoking the name of Gouranga ( Sri Chaitanya, their lord ) and putting their bags on the hanging rope shelves, the Vaisnavas ( the devotees of Sri Chaitanya ) are now ‘ peeping into the rooms of whores’. These people were in fact regular whore - visitor migrants from Calcutta who were then living in Chandannagar in the guise of vaisnavas . Aghorchandra also refers to the newly emerging babu class ( nou – veau riche ) characterized by their fashionable hair style and cigars in the mouth – they were also regular visitors to brothels. These babus came mainly from middle and higher middle class families and besides whoring their another passion was the popular theatre culture. Gondalpara, an old, renowned area in Chandannagar may be cited as a case in point. In order to bring these babus under control, the elderly people in that locality closed the theatre club and opened a library in its place. The mention cigar is also significant. Cigars were then easily available in Chandannagar and became a hallmark of babuism. Even today, cigars are sold in cigarette stalls at Lakhshmiganj – the area where the oldest brothel known as Khejurtala came up in the early 18th century and continued to exist the late 1980s. The second part of the poem clearly reveals the pitiable condition of prostitutes in Chandannagar. A large number of them were Brahmin girls who earned fame for their beauty. With the number of prostitutes suddenly rising as a result of migration from Calcutta their ‘ rate’ fell down according to the law of market economy. Hence they had to accept the customers who were far inferior, in terms of social /caste rank to the pretty girls of Brahmin caste. Aghorchandra laments that the poor laborers ‘ who live in huts of palm leaves’ are now lying with the prostitutes ‘on the cozy beds’. It is important to notice that Chandannagar prostitutes had earlier maintained a caste discrimination. As for example, they did not accept Muslim customers. Some Muslims therefore, used to visit brothels posing as Hindus with their beards shaven off. The Act 14 however changed the scenario, by lowering the rate and rank of prostitutes. It is said that even the poor boatman now began to visit the high-ranking brothels at Farasdanga ( land of French ) and the prostitutes had to entertain them. This is how the new act dealt a blow to the social standing of prostitutes in Chandannagar and , in fact, opened up a new chapter in the history of flesh trade in this French – ruled city. --------------------------------- Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Sep 6 01:37:03 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:37:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kalhan, Parihaspura and Komal Gandhar Message-ID: <46DF0C67.3020409@sarai.net> Dear Gargi, dear ARKP, dear all, Many thanks Gargi, for your generous and wonderful post. And for the breathless games you are playing with language and thought. Many thanks gentlemen, I mean ARKP, for the forthrightness with which you have revealed the contents of your innermost selves. It makes for interesting diagonstic possibilities. But lets leave that for another day. I am packing bags, catching a really early morning flight to a city that straddles two continents and many other faultlines. Perhaps I will have something quite different to think about while I am there that i can report on. Meanwhile, my well thumbed copy of Rajtarangini will travel with me. I am quite amazed at how the ARKP cohort has perfected the practice of actually not reading the actual contents of what gets written in a mail to a fine art, and of course this gets done in tandem with the practiced ease with which they play out their fantasies about what actually gets written. I will leave the fantasies aside, because they bore me, but the misreading, or the holes in the reading do interest me. For instance, Rashneek admonishes me in his previous mail (and by extension the writer I quoted) saying "Please read Kalhana's Rajatarangni(Book V-128 to 227) and you will know that Kalhana has no where mentioned that Sankarvarman destroyed Parihaspura" If only there had been a little attention to the actual text of my posting, I would not have had to embarass him yet again. But I shall. In my posting the references to Rajtarangini as a source for the destruction of temples is actually limited to Harsha. And it is difficult to deny that Kalhana is categorical in the way in which he describes Harsha's actions. I had written - "The depredations of Harsha are very well documented. I am quoting a book by N. N. Das Gupta, "The Struggle for Empire",Bombay Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1957, (of course it might be suspect, since it is written by a Bengali Boddi/Viadya, like Gargi, me and Swapan Dasgupta the great friend of 'Panun Kashmir', just to set the record straight, but lets leave that aside for the moment) Harsha (1089-1101 A.D.), who was particularly keen on destroying temple images, two centuries before Muslim rule was established, had appointed special officers for the purpose designated as 'devotpaatana-nayaka' or "prefect for the destruction of icons". Dasgupta's sources for the narrative of Harsha's depredations include Kalhan's Rajtarangini [Struggle for Empire, p. 665]" Neither my reference to Sankaravarman, nor Rajiv Sapru's (which I did indeed gloss from a kousa site) are augmented by any citation of Kalhan's Rajtarangini. I bring Kalhan into the argument in the next paragraph, via N.N. Dasgupta, while talking about Harsha. So, here again, our sloppy reader, Rashneek Kher, takes two fragments from two separate sections of a text, which point to two different historical figures, and mashes them together, all the while pretending that the confusion is actually in my head. Texts are clear as crystal. The order in which something is typed, paragraphs arranged have an sometimes a banal lack of ambiguity. To deliberately suggest a confusion in what is otherwise transparently clear is to indulge in a sad spectacle of dissimulation. That is why, dear overgrown adoloscents, my cheating patriots, one needs to be careful about citation and quotation, not because there are some abstract academic niceties involved, but because not being careful about when and where you misquote someone, me for instance, can only expose you further. I told you to watch your steps, I cajoled, persuaded, requested you to not let me embarass you further. And you couldn't stop yourselves, could you. You had to rush and make a false claim about what I had or had not said. What Kalhan says or does not say about Sankaravarman, I will come to, a little later, in a few days, but right now, I have a flight to catch. Remember, Kalhan is in my hand luggage. He wil be a travelling companion. And I will listen to him, and get back to you all, with cruel exactitude. Parihaspura, what a wonderful name, the city of lampoon and satire. You, ARKP, could have been its best and most exemplary citizens. You are your own best satire, especially when you think you are being clever. Incidentally, Gargi, I did dig up a slightly garbled reference to the disruptio of Ritwik Ghatak's Komal Gandhar. It is in an essay by Partha Chatterjee (something tells me this is not Partha Chatterjee the political theorist, but some other Partha Chatterjee) and it is available online at - The essay is called ; "The relentless tragedy of Ritwik Ghatak" and it was published in the Himal Magazine of November 2003. It is available online at - http://www.himalmag.com/2003/november/essay.htm For the sake of readerly convenience, let me quote some sections here. 1. "The release was stymied reportedly by the party with the help of goons who owed allegiance to the ruling Congress party. According to Ghatak, Komal Gandhar played to a responsive packed house in the first week. Then, at the beginning of the second, he began to notice strange happenings in the dark of the theatre. Loud sobbing would be heard from different parts of the hall during funny or romantic scenes and raucous laughter at moments of sorrow, sending conflicting messages to the audience. Attendance rapidly dwindled by mid-week and fell away altogether at the end of it. The film had to be withdrawn, causing an enormous financial loss to the two producers, Mahendra Gupt and Ghatak himself. It was later discovered that a fairly large number of tickets were bought by shady characters, who had been instructed to disturb the real audience..." (the writer here also suggests that it is not only the Congress, but also elements from the undivided CPI that disturbed the screening but the text is sloppy and jumpy, so I am not sure when he is attributing blame to whom) "The failure engineered by forces inimical to his integrity as an artiste and person, completely shattered the director. He could not believe that the very people who not so long ago had been his comrades could get together to sink him. His descent into alcoholism had begun. Beer suddenly gave way to hard liquor and relentless drinking occupied him more than cinema, literature, the plastic arts or music. “He was signing in three bars for his drinks, and, not being able to drink alone, was also being the generous host”, remembered Barin Saba, iconoclast, filmmaker and social activist in 1977, a year after the director’s death. Quite naturally, funds were going to run out sooner than later. People had barely understood Komal Gandhar during its subverted release and that fact too undermined his self-confidence..." So it seems, ARKP do have some strange, but perhaps less strident predecessors. And it is odd, but also delightful, that the disrupted film should be Komal Gandhar. Your original post about Komal Gandhar seems to have the elements of a a strange retroactive reverse prophesy. Good night, and keep the posts flying Shuddha From gaurigill at yahoo.co.in Thu Sep 6 09:19:51 2007 From: gaurigill at yahoo.co.in (Gauri Gill) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 04:49:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] Photography Exhibit Message-ID: <103659.58864.qm@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> GILL & GUPTA Gauri Gill, Nizamuddin at Night, B&W series, set of 24 pictures. Sunil Gupta, Tales of a City: Delhi, Colour prints, 17 pictures. Exhibition curated by Radhika Singh EXHIBITION 7th to 16th September 2007, 11 am to 7 pm daily Art Gallery, India International Centre Annexe, Lodi Estate (next to The World Bank), New Delhi 110003. Telephone: 2461 9431 extn 383 (Art Gallery). Opening Night Thursday, 6th September at 6:30 - 8:30 pm Gill and Gupta showcase their affinity to Delhi in two symmetrically opposing sets of images in this photography exhibition in September at the IIC, New Delhi. It is an interesting coincidence and therefore point of interest that both Gill and Gupta are sharing at least one common space, that of Humayun's Tomb, both in their pictures and in their personal histories. Radhika Singh, Fotomedia Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 12:08:29 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:08:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Brief Overview of "123" Agreement Message-ID: <98f331e00709052338p2a6bc084kbc50a825c2e2232a@mail.gmail.com> *A Brief Overview of "123" Agreement * The Nuclear Deal started with the Bush-Manmohan Singh joint statement of July 18, 2005. For the US, the nuclear deal was the bait with which to get India into the US strategic net. For the Manmohan Singh Government, the nuclear deal was the cover under which India could enter a strategic partnership with the US. The 123 Agreement is the one, which makes the deal operational, the "123" name coming from the section 123 of the 1954 Atomic Energy Act, which governs all civilian cooperation agreements with the US. The premise of the Deal was that India would be allowed to break out of its nuclear isolation following the 1974 Pokhran I and 1998 Pokhran II tests. In order to allow the US to enter into nuclear trade with India as per the Deal, the US Congress had to adopt enabling legislation amending the sanctions earlier imposed. Putting together drafts of the two Houses, the US Congress finally passed the Hyde Act in December, 2006. Question: What were some of these key assurances that the Prime Minister gave in the statement to the Parliament? The PM made two statements to the Indian Parliament, one soon after the Bush- Manmohan Singh joint statement and the other, in response to mounting criticism in India to US pressures and opacity in the negotiations, after the finalisation of the separation plan of civilian and military nuclear facilities prior to the above legislative process in the US Congress. The PM had assured Parliament that: 1.. India would have access to full civilian nuclear technology and lifting of all technology sanctions 2.. No annual certification of good conduct by the US President would be required as was being proposed in the draft Bills before the US Congress 3.. Any linkage with India's independent foreign policy would be unacceptable 4.. Life-time supply of nuclear fuel would be assured Question: How does the Hyde Act go against these assurances and guarantees given in the Prime Minister's statement? Once the Hyde Act was passed, it became clear that a number of these assurances were not going to be met or would be met only partially. The Hyde Act made nuclear trade with India conditional upon the US President ensuring, and annually certifying, that India's foreign policy was in line with US interests, that it would work closely with the US to isolate or even sanction Iran, that it would formally declare support to the controversial Proliferation Security Initiative including interdiction in international waters. It denied India access to technology for enrichment, reprocessing and for heavy water. It also made clear that if the Deal were terminated, not only would US fuel supplies stop, the US would also work with other suppliers to ensure full stoppage of supplies to India. India had bitter experience of such policies when the US had stopped fuel supplies to the Tarapur reactor after Pokhran-I and had not allowed India to either reprocess or send back the spent fuel. The Hyde Act provision therefore meant that India's nuclear power program would be hostage to the US continued goodwill. Those supporting the deal have argued that these sections in the Act are non-binding and therefore India need not care about them. However, what is being deliberately overlooked is the annual certification clause, by which the US President will give a "good conduct certificate" to the US Congress India in living up to the Hyde Act. In case such a certificate is not forthcoming or if the Congress is not satisfied with the US President's certificate, the US can terminate the 123 Agreement. The deeper we are in a nuclear co-operation agreement with large investments made on imported nuclear reactors and fuel, more the potential for blackmail. Question: Will the '123 agreement' help the Government to maintain the assurances given earlier and recover the ground lost with the passage of the Hyde Act? The PM had earlier said that through this deal, we would secure full co-operation on civilian nuclear technology including the complete fuel cycle. It has now been conceded that fuel cycle technologies will remain under sanctions, as will other so-called "dual-use" technologies, meaning that India can be denied any advanced technology under the pretext that it can have military application as well. Therefore, a major portion of the technology sanctions regime in place for several decades now would remain even after this Deal. Incidentally, the Fast Breeder Reactors will also be regarded as engaging in reprocessing operations and therefore come under sanctions, even if we put them under safeguards. According to the PM, India has secured a lifetime fuel security guarantee in the Agreement and claims that the relevant clause ensures that the US will intercede with other countries to help India get over any disruption in supplies. Several experts have pointed out that this clause is applicable only when disruption of supplies has been caused for other reasons than termination of the agreement by the US. Clearly, in case of termination, the Hyde Act provision that the US will work with others to deny India fuel supplies would become applicable. The other serious problem in the agreement is the termination clause itself. The provision for consultation in case of termination is only cosmetic and has no force. The clause is wide-ranging and the US can terminate the contract under any number of pretexts such as an adverse report in the President's annual certification on India's foreign policy. Upon termination, the agreement calls for return of all materials and equipment supplied earlier. Some compensation payments are called for but India will face huge dislocation in power generation. The omnibus nature of the termination clause allows the US to use the Congress or the Presidential annual certification to threaten India's nuclear energy programme, the very raison d'etre for the Agreement! The more the investment in nuclear energy based on imported fuel and reactors, the bigger the threat. The Government is now saying that that the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) would give India better terms and therefore we have no cause for worry either for technology or for future fuel requirements. If this indeed happens, US suppliers of reactors and equipment would find themselves at a disadvantage in the Indian market. It defies belief that the US would steer India's case at the NSG, which works by consensus, against its own commercial interests! Question: Why have the Left parties asked the UPA Government not to go forward on further negotiations on the India-US nuclear deal? A number of experts and commentators had pointed out the problems with the Hyde Act. The CPI(M) had asked the Government not to go ahead with 123 negotiations without first resolving these issues. Even though the Government does not have a majority in the Parliament on this issue, it decided to go ahead with its own agenda on the nuclear deal. The negotiations for the 123 Agreement were held in great secrecy and the text released only a week after it had been finalised. In spite of a number of questions that have been raised on the relationship between the Hyde Act and the 123 Agreement, the Government wants to go ahead with the deal. The Left Parties cannot accept that a minority government goes ahead with such a divisive agreement without resolving all contentious issues and taking Parliament into confidence. The requisite next steps are discussions with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) for working out India-specific safeguards for civilian reactors and facilities, discussions with the NSG and finally the passing of the 123 Agreement by the US Congress only after which it would become "operational". However, if we need to review and take stock of the 123 Agreement, we need to do it now. Once we go into negotiations with multilateral bodies, it would be impossible for India to change those agreements. Therefore, any re-consideration of the 123 Agreement and the impact of the Hyde Act must be done here and now, before proceeding any further. This is why the Left has asked the Government not to go ahead with any further negotiations till all these issues are addressed. From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 12:27:34 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:27:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CPI(M) on Nuclear Deal Message-ID: <98f331e00709052357wb775632r60b0e222d0638617@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, I broadly share your concerns on the nuclear issue. It is always nice to see people who still believe in some kind of (what they call it) utopia since i also have faith that ultimately socialism will come. And in that condition all kinds of weapon will be things of the past. We may differ on the nature of the socialism but as I am aware you too oppose imperialism. In my view, we should unitedly raise the concerns regarding the deal. As far as humour is concerned, I would say the need today is to hammer the deal and US imperialism. After all, priority is a thing. regards, Prakash From sen.gargi at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 12:36:24 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:36:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Of ingrates and hypocrites In-Reply-To: <960785.98401.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <90354F27-DCF6-4417-8E31-75D3F7BE08CB@sarai.net> <960785.98401.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear K of ARKP, there you go again dear, mixing up meanings and metaphors. Jeebesh is treferring to rules and you need rules to engage - with others, with lists and even to play games with. You talk of boundaries - accidentally cartogrpahed, legally upheld, protected with the might of the mighty miitary and even mightier motorolla (or was it Airtel?). They are not quite the same thing at all you see. The problem my dear is, if you use words without quite understanding meaning, the pictures you draw can become empty and meaning-less. Or at best quite smelly indeed. Like when you asked us to visualise Shuddha sleeping with wind (Pawan). Gargi On 05/09/2007, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > INTERESTING PARALLEL: > > It takes years to make a Nation. It takes the blood, sweat and tears of > many to build it and try and keep it secure. > > Yet, you will find in the Nation some who feed off it but are intent on > attacking it and supporting those who want to break-up the Nation. These > are the enemy within. > > These self-centered and self-obsessed ingrates will pontificate over the > need to protect the integrity of a Virtual Nation ("intellectual community") > they might have help build, but they will not hesitate to undermine the > Nation that allows the "reality" of their existence to be functional. > > Kshmendra Kaul. > > > Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > This is a list for discussion. Personal queries to individuals may be > please not asked through the list. > > It takes years to build and make an intellectual community. It takes > a few days to destroy it. > > Please treat the subscribers with some respect. > > warmly > jeebesh > > On 04-Sep-07, at 11:48 AM, we wi wrote: > > > Hi Vedavati, > > > > You Did not answered my 2nd question on caste and > > marriages in INDIA. Anyway may I know what your husband do? Can I > > have his email address please? > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Building a website is a piece of cake. > > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Thu Sep 6 13:11:05 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:41:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] this is called Nationalism Message-ID: <847783.68609.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> I guess nobody can define it better than Tarun Vijay!! Tricolour's territory 5 Sep 2007, 1126 hrs IST,Tarun Vijay (Times of India online) Just finished watching Bharat Bala's Jana Gana Mana (Times Music) which is such an exhilarating video presentation that words are incapable to express what the heart has experienced. The way top singers of the nation sung it, it was a virtual treat to the eyes, like worshipping God in a temple, like sunshine in a blooming mustard field with the Himalayas in the background. Like a rainbow over Gaumukh, the source of the Ganga and a child's smile in her mother's lap. Was it the magic of the singers or the music or the directorial excellence? I think it was the impact of our nation's grandeur, the immense canvas of the tricolour's territory, the magic of motherland that mesmerised. Rest were only the suitable carriers of that heritage. We feel blessed to have been born in this land called Bharat. To have Ganga and Sindhu and Kaveri and Brahmaputra. Where the Himalayas is ours and an ocean bearing our nation's name. A desert produces the best of the warriors and musicians alike and the backwater province is incredible as God's own country. Here no Galileo was ever hanged for his beliefs and though the brutalities of the barbarians bruised us, yet we produced Shivajis and Guru Gobind Singhs and empires as powerful as Sri Vijaya. The zero was invented by us and so was the finest silk and rust-less steel. The circumference of the earth was calculated by our forefathers and the medical sciences flourished here while the rest of the world was beginning to explore meanings of life. In poetry, languages and culture the Vedic people showed the light to the world and gave the best gift of Sanskrit, the most scientific language we have ever known. Above all we gave the message –the world is a family – and all paths lead to one God. Harmony replaced confrontationist approach and though the people who had their first black students graduating from a non-segregated school as late as in late fifties (and the 'little rock nine' were honoured in 1999 by US Congress) wonder how and why our democracy is flowering in spite of too many anarchist trends, we are not surprised because to live this way has been in our blood. Even when there was no one political state we were always known as Bharat and India. Because we believed in cultural nationhood that always was there and the world recognised us only as Bharat, Aryavarta or India and not by Rajputana or Madras. And look what we have made of this great nation today. Our rivers are dirty, Himalayan pride has been replaced by Himalayan blunders losing heights to the neighbouring foes, hateful divisive politics, all-pervasive corruption, liars and lascivious masquerading as politicians, where another political party is a worse foe than the enemy across the border who killed our jawans! A polity that takes pride in denouncing and disowning her own heritage, stifles Sanskrit and insults the majority by announcing reservations for just one 'vote-powerful' religious group becomes the biggest factor to devitalise the responsive and the resistive spirit of the masses. The basic ideas of the threads that bound us as one people for a millennium get trivialised like a filmy duet dotted with whistling and a drunken frenzy. Such a political power represents the ugliest face the nation has ever seen and the leader compromises on national issues just for the sake of a gun salute at the last rites. IT sector's 'greatest' revolution is exposed when we find ourselves standing forty-sixth in the global IT competitiveness survey and the scandalous faces are touted as Presidential candidates. We celebrate National Language Day on September 14, as if attending the funeral of Hindi, pursuing vigorously a de-Hindiisation policy of the state and show sympathies for the culprit of the tinsel world demoralising the honest and the upright. Our ancestors built Bamiyan Buddha, Angkor Vat and Jaisalmer fort. We raise buildings that are shabby pigeonholes with cracks and red beetle nut spits colouring every nook and corner so much that one has to put calendar pictures of Ram, Nanak and Christ to dissuade the man who spits compulsively not to dirty the pathway or the staircase. Our assertions to honour national icons are limited to personal family and self-promotional vision. We lived with a Connaught Place for five decades but renamed it after family leaders who have already almost every big thing named after them and not after Yashoda and Kanha because the former benefited the politician and the latter would have been dubbed as 'communal'. This is the courage, creativity and the conviction of today's movers and shakers. Hardly any leader of the nation lives and works in a place which has a touch of Indian architecture or the fragrance of Indian revolutionaries. New buildings in 'Lutyen's Delhi' are restricted to copy colonial styles only and the Viceroy's Palace, rechristened as Rashtrapati Bhawan, proudly shows the statues and pictures of the hunting campaigns of the Moghuls, British kings and queens .Not a single Hindu emperor finds a place of honour there, neither do Indian leaders of resurgence and freedom like Sri Aurobindo, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh or Swami Vivekananada. Those who felt 'high' in accepting a firangi as the first Governor-General of free India would feel ashamed to have the tallest building or the finest hall where new governments are sworn in after Adi Sankar or Dayananda or Ram or Krishna or Gobind Singh or Shivaji. Why? Please visit the Rashtrapati Bhawan site (http://presidentofindia.nic.in/panoramic_view) and find out if anything that pronounces the India effect dominantly has a place there. Because we love to hate ourselves while walking in the shoes of the colonial masters. We treat our own people with the same contempt and distrust as the British did. Our laws governing publication of a book and a newspaper, a theatre show, policing, postal matters, vehicle registration are same or directly derived from the nineteenth-century British laws which were created for a subjugated people to be strangulated for wanting to be free. They treated Indian Army men inferior to the firangs and gave them discriminatory salaries, using them as tools to strengthen colonial rule, yet the Indian Army celebrates with honour their predecessor British officers, Raising Days and Victory Days. That's our sense of a national legacy of heroes and war-victories. It's nothing but a manifestation of self-negation overpowering self-realisation. Do you know what VT stands for, written as nationality code at the tail of every plane that belongs to India? It means 'Viceroy's Territory' and during the British period every plane bought by the Indian government had to put it at its tail prominently. None bothered about it even after 1947 and it continues till today! >From the ASEAN website to unmistakably all foreign governments and magazines publish India's map with a truncated Kashmir. Microsoft produces all the software with a wrong Indian territorial depiction. But we sheepishly accept donations from it and the government remains the biggest purchaser of MS ware. One foreign magazine published Kashmir's reference as a sovereign independent country, in a nation-to-nation description of World Cup Football fever, like mentioning India, Israel and Kashmir. I wanted to cancel its India correspondent's accreditation while serving on Press Accreditation Committee till they corrected. Yet all the governments chose to 'ignore' it continuously. They are just needed to have the 'unacceptable' map stamped with a line that it doesn't depict correct territory – but it's done just for a few copies reaching India and passed through Indian customs. Does that suffice as a correction? We don't get hurt or feel angry on such violations of our territorial integrity. It seems like a God's gift that we still have been blessed with Indians who have preserved and cared the essence of Indianness. Like farmers, tribals, teachers, labourers, deprived sections and the great lower middle-class. They make our Kumbh Melas biggest congregations on this earth, vote most enthusiastically, celebrate festivals with gusto and gaiety and provide us services and food and nourishment and not the urban rich escapist class which consumes most and delivers least. Really we feel proud to still be Indians because of the common Indian citizen, unsung yet essential to our tricolour's sparkle and genuine leaders like Lata Mangeshkars, Bhimsen Joshis, Amjad Ali Khans, Lakshmi Mittals , Tatas and Shimit Amins who make us look at the tricolour with pride and hope and give us an adrenaline of the Chak De spirit. The territory of the tricolour is encroached by small people occupying big positions. Let the real Bharat feel the hurt and get angry over this trespass and bring the deserving to the corridors of governance. If it's a blessing to be born in this land, it's incumbent upon us to justify our being the children of Mother India that holds the colours of our hearts. The author is the editor of Panchjanya, a Hindi weekly brought out by the RSS. The views expressed are his personal. Try the revolutionary next-gen Yahoo! Mail. Go to http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/dc/landing From mitoo at sarai.net Mon Sep 3 07:40:44 2007 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:10:44 +0900 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] [digital fringe 07] Message-ID: <46DB6D24.9010000@sarai.net> -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:49:44 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:49:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kalhan, Parihaspura and Komal Gandhar In-Reply-To: <46DF0C67.3020409@sarai.net> References: <46DF0C67.3020409@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709060119w66b81a8axcf11e36cead648ca@mail.gmail.com> Shaddha , An your mesage is ?????????????? Pawan Durani On 9/6/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Gargi, dear ARKP, dear all, > > Many thanks Gargi, for your generous and wonderful post. And for the > breathless games you are playing with language and thought. Many thanks > gentlemen, I mean ARKP, for the forthrightness with which you have > revealed the contents of your innermost selves. It makes for interesting > diagonstic possibilities. But lets leave that for another day. > > I am packing bags, catching a really early morning flight to a city that > straddles two continents and many other faultlines. Perhaps I will have > something quite different to think about while I am there that i can > report on. Meanwhile, my well thumbed copy of Rajtarangini will travel > with me. > > I am quite amazed at how the ARKP cohort has perfected the practice of > actually not reading the actual contents of what gets written in a mail > to a fine art, and of course this gets done in tandem with the practiced > ease with which they play out their fantasies about what actually gets > written. I will leave the fantasies aside, because they bore me, but the > misreading, or the holes in the reading do interest me. For instance, > Rashneek admonishes me in his previous mail (and by extension the > writer I quoted) saying > > "Please read Kalhana's Rajatarangni(Book V-128 to 227) and you will know > that Kalhana has no where mentioned that Sankarvarman destroyed > Parihaspura" > > If only there had been a little attention to the actual text of my > posting, I would not have had to embarass him yet again. But I shall. > > In my posting the references to Rajtarangini as a source for the > destruction of temples is actually limited to Harsha. And it is > difficult to deny that Kalhana is categorical in the way in which he > describes Harsha's actions. > > I had written - > > "The depredations of Harsha are very well documented. I am quoting a > book by N. N. Das Gupta, "The Struggle for Empire",Bombay Bharatiya > Vidya Bhavan, 1957, (of course it might be suspect, since it is written > by a Bengali Boddi/Viadya, like Gargi, me and Swapan Dasgupta the great > friend of 'Panun Kashmir', just to set the record straight, but lets > leave that aside for the moment) > > Harsha (1089-1101 A.D.), who was particularly keen on destroying temple > images, two centuries before Muslim rule was established, had appointed > special officers for the purpose designated as 'devotpaatana-nayaka' or > "prefect for the destruction of icons". Dasgupta's sources for the > narrative of Harsha's depredations include Kalhan's Rajtarangini > [Struggle for Empire, p. 665]" > > Neither my reference to Sankaravarman, nor Rajiv Sapru's (which I did > indeed gloss from a kousa site) are augmented by any citation of > Kalhan's Rajtarangini. > > I bring Kalhan into the argument in the next paragraph, via N.N. > Dasgupta, while talking about Harsha. So, here again, our sloppy reader, > Rashneek Kher, takes two fragments from two separate sections of a text, > which point to two different historical figures, and mashes them > together, all the while pretending that the confusion is actually in my > head. Texts are clear as crystal. The order in which something is typed, > paragraphs arranged have an sometimes a banal lack of ambiguity. To > deliberately suggest a confusion in what is otherwise transparently > clear is to indulge in a sad spectacle of dissimulation. > > That is why, dear overgrown adoloscents, my cheating patriots, one needs > to be careful about citation and quotation, not because there are some > abstract academic niceties involved, but because not being careful about > when and where you misquote someone, me for instance, can only expose > you further. I told you to watch your steps, I cajoled, persuaded, > requested you to not let me embarass you further. And you couldn't stop > yourselves, could you. You had to rush and make a false claim about what > I had or had not said. > > What Kalhan says or does not say about Sankaravarman, I will come to, a > little later, in a few days, but right now, I have a flight to catch. > Remember, Kalhan is in my hand luggage. He wil be a travelling > companion. And I will listen to him, and get back to you all, with cruel > exactitude. Parihaspura, what a wonderful name, the city of lampoon and > satire. You, ARKP, could have been its best and most exemplary citizens. > You are your own best satire, especially when you think you are being > clever. > > Incidentally, Gargi, I did dig up a slightly garbled reference to the > disruptio of Ritwik Ghatak's Komal Gandhar. > > It is in an essay by Partha Chatterjee (something tells me this is not > Partha Chatterjee the political theorist, but some other Partha > Chatterjee) and it is available online at - > > The essay is called ; "The relentless tragedy of Ritwik Ghatak" and it > was published in the Himal Magazine of November 2003. It is available > online at - > > http://www.himalmag.com/2003/november/essay.htm > > For the sake of readerly convenience, let me quote some sections here. > > 1. > > > "The release was stymied reportedly by the party with the help of goons > who owed allegiance to the ruling Congress party. According to Ghatak, > Komal Gandhar played to a responsive packed house in the first week. > Then, at the beginning of the second, he began to notice strange > happenings in the dark of the theatre. Loud sobbing would be heard from > different parts of the hall during funny or romantic scenes and raucous > laughter at moments of sorrow, sending conflicting messages to the > audience. Attendance rapidly dwindled by mid-week and fell away > altogether at the end of it. The film had to be withdrawn, causing an > enormous financial loss to the two producers, Mahendra Gupt and Ghatak > himself. It was later discovered that a fairly large number of tickets > were bought by shady characters, who had been instructed to disturb the > real audience..." > > (the writer here also suggests that it is not only the Congress, but > also elements from the undivided CPI that disturbed the screening but > the text is sloppy and jumpy, so I am not sure when he is attributing > blame to whom) > > "The failure engineered by forces inimical to his integrity as an > artiste and person, completely shattered the director. He could not > believe that the very people who not so long ago had been his comrades > could get together to sink him. His descent into alcoholism had begun. > Beer suddenly gave way to hard liquor and relentless drinking occupied > him more than cinema, literature, the plastic arts or music. "He was > signing in three bars for his drinks, and, not being able to drink > alone, was also being the generous host", remembered Barin Saba, > iconoclast, filmmaker and social activist in 1977, a year after the > director's death. Quite naturally, funds were going to run out sooner > than later. People had barely understood Komal Gandhar during its > subverted release and that fact too undermined his self-confidence..." > > So it seems, ARKP do have some strange, but perhaps less strident > predecessors. And it is odd, but also delightful, that the disrupted > film should be Komal Gandhar. Your original post about Komal Gandhar > seems to have the elements of a a strange retroactive reverse prophesy. > > Good night, and keep the posts flying > > Shuddha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From arvind.access at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 17:39:45 2007 From: arvind.access at gmail.com (Arvind Kumar) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:39:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fifth Posting - Caste Violence in Urban Maharashtra: A Study of Worli Riots of Mumbai 1974 - A Breaking Point in Dalit Panthers Movement Message-ID: <364872690709030509k4f5e9781sf130983c162dedd4@mail.gmail.com> Fifth Posting - Caste Violence in Urban Maharashtra: A Study of Worli Riots of Mumbai 1974 - A Breaking Point in Dalit Panthers Movement Not Just One Amongst Many - Avinash Mahatekar, the Dalit Panther During my background research on the Worli riots of 1974 I had come across the name of Avinash Mahatekar. The name though figured quite prominently in the Dalit Panther literature but the experience which I got in the personal interactions with this man made me aware of the very details of the then scenario with a lot of clarity. He was a person who elaborated upon the details in a very distinguished manner and with impeccable profundity. His reminiscences not just made my work gain authenticity but also made an indelible impression in my mind about the way the events must have unfolded. I must say it was truly a case of; from the horse's mouth. Avinash Mahatekar was one of the founder member of the Dalit Panthers. He has been a noted journalist and has edited a Marathi daily 'Samrat'. Currently he is with the Republican Party of India. I present below some of the excerpts from the interview with Avinash Mahatekar. Q. Can you tell us something about the chain of events leading to Worli riots? There was a Parliamentary by election in 1974 for Central Bombay Lok Sabha constituency. Since it was a Dalit dominated constituency the Republican Party of India considering its strong hold over the electorate, under the leadership of R.S. Gawai supported Congress candidate B.C. Kamble. Surprisingly, not all voters were happy with Republican Party supporting a Congress candidate. Republican masses were attracted to a militant group which was very active then and was aggressively fighting against the caste oppression by the caste Hindus. The Dalit Panthers had declared the boycott of the election which naturally would have hampered the winability of Congress candidate. Actual incident began with a public meeting which was held at Dr. Ambedkar Maidan at Worli. Here the Dalit Panther leaders and activists were to announce the boycott of the upcoming by election. Leaders like Namdeo Dhasal, J.V. Powar, Raja Dhale, addressed the meeting. Shiv Sena activists got infuriated at Dhasal's fiery speech and started pelting stones on the dais. This led to retaliation from the Dalit activists assembled in the meeting. Q. Whom would you blame for the riots then, the Panthers or the Sainiks? The blame goes straight on Shiv Sena and police. Half of the Worli chawls were inhabited by the policemen whose young age male family members were activists of Shiv Sena. The fighting went on for ten days. During night times these young Sainik brigade used to dress up themselves and disguise as policemen and attack the chawls in which Dalits used to reside. Many of the Dalit families initially remained under the false impression or illusion that these are policemen who have come to provide saftey to Dalit hamlets, but they were faced with the reality soon that actually these were the Sainiks who had meticulously planned this form of disguised attack. Q. How do you see the role of other political parties during these riots? The elderly and senior leaders of Republican Party of India failed to protect Dalit youth. Congress party was vindictive. Shiv Sena was in opposition. Some Left activists came to help the Panthers. Leftists and Socialists supported our cause and they boosted the Panthers to fight against the police brutality. While protesting the police brutality, Raja Dhale got injured. He announced a protest march from Naigaon to Worli. The policemen disrupted the march in which Bhagwat Jadav was killed when a stone pelted on him hit his forehead. Q. What relief measures were extended by the administration; were they biased? The administration and police considered the Panthers to be hand in gloves with the Leftists. Hence there was no question of relief measures. Rather they harassed the Panthers as many of us were booked under various charges. Q. There is no denying the fact the Dalit Panthers was a militant movement. Do you see it as a break from Ambedkarism? No. In the given situation Republican Party of India was completely unsuccessful in safeguarding the interests of the Dalits. In fact a faction also joined hands with Congress. This was the unfortunate time when social tension was at its peak in the entire country in general and Maharashtra in particular. In Parwani Sonargaon two women were stripped naked and in Dhakli, Gawai brothers had their eyes gouged out by caste Hindus. Yet, the Republican Party of India leaders were silent. It was these handful of youngsters who finally revolted against the atrocities. Q. What do you think were the initial and prominent influences on the early Panthers? A. Our educated youth were influenced by Black literature and Black panthers. Cuban revolution also had an influence on our young men. The Left ideology definitely influenced us but we did not borrow this ideology directly due to its ambiguity on the issues of class and caste dynamics in India. From pkray11 at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 15:03:54 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:03:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Final Solution Revisited: A request from Rakesh Sharma In-Reply-To: <6d8d09460709042344q21ba17c9id4ebea0f25a327c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d8d09460709042344q21ba17c9id4ebea0f25a327c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98f331e00709050233s35b76ceajcce7f86a6fa6de76@mail.gmail.com> HI, Following is the appeal from Rakesh Sharma, who made FINAL SOLUTION...... *Please forward this appeal to other like-minded institutions, organisations and individuals as well*. Over the last couple of years, some of you have spoken to me about revisiting Final Solution and making a new film – *Gujarat: 5 years after the carnage *. You'd be happy to know that I have been filming in Gujarat for the last several months for the follow-up film. The filming has been done in Modasa, Idar, Kalol, Halol, Godhra, Lunawada, Baroda, Chhota Udepur, Himmatnagar, Ahmedabad, Limdi, Bhavnagar, Amreli, Rajkot etc. We've already done a bulk of our filming, though we plan to continue filming till the election results are announced and the new Assembly is sworn in. We hope to offer a comprehensive film sometime next year. However, all of us in the team also feel that we must release at least a short version of the film *pre-elections *to enable activists, NGOs and others to intervene during the electoral process by holding screenings and discussions. We aim to finish these in early/mid October and make them available on VCD. These early versions would be available only in Gujarati as they are most likely to be used in Gujarat during November 2007. I write to you to seek your assistance. While I have so far managed all the filming and editing related expenses personally (thanks to a grant from the Singh Foundation and damages received from NYPD!), I'm now seeking completion funds to be able to release the version in October. Broadly speaking, we propose the following: a. To approach a broad network of individuals and like-minded organisations and individuals for funding assistance. b. To invite contributions not exceeding Rs 10,000 from a single organization and Rs 5,000 from an individual. c. Against the contribution, the individual/ organisation will get a credit in the film. The title would normally read - "* Funding support from*" followed by the full list. d. The individual/ organisation will also get VCD copies of the film against this contribution. The proposal is to offer * Contribution (individuals only): Rs2000; VCDs offered: 21 * Contribution (organizations/ individuals): Rs 5000; VCDs offered: 51 * Contribution (organizations only): Rs 10000;VCDs offered: 120 We hope that these multiple copies would be distributed by the concerned organisation/ individual free to their activists, friends and colleagues so they can be circulated and screened widely, especially in Gujarat before the forthcoming elections. The VCDs offered are total number of discs - the first film is on 2 VCDs while the farmer film is on a single VCD (ie, each set is 3 VCDs). Details about the proposed films are enclosed below. I request you to lend your support to the films under production. Please write to me personally at the earliest ( rakeshfilm at gmail.comor PO Box 12023, Azad Nagar, Mumbai 400053). With Gratitude Rakesh Sharma website: www.rakeshfilm.com blog: rakeshindia.blogspot.com ps: Please do not circulate to the Press - we'd like no speculation or publicity till the films are formally released. The films currently being edited for an October release deal broadly with the following: * * *After the Storm:* Five years after the carnage, what is the state of Relief and Rehabilitation? The Supreme Court's intervention in carnage-related cases has dominated media headlines, but what really is the true story behind the victims' quest for Justice? Away from major cases like the Naroda Patiya massacre or Gulberg or Best Bakery and Pandarwada, what is the fate of other FIRs and court cases filed by the victims? The film goes beyond highlighting the plight of the Muslim community in Gujarat. It probes other dimensions of the issue by specifically looking at the patterns of arrests and litigation. A majority of those charged with rioting, arson, murder etc are either tribals or Dalits and OBCs. An analysis of those arrested from 32 police stations in Ahmedabad suggests that of the 1577 detainees, only 30-odd were upper caste! Are these footsoldiers victims too? Cynically recruited, then discarded, left to rot in jails, what do the 'perpetrators of the violence feel today about the VHP and the BJP? The film is likely to be in two parts of approximately an hour each, both complete in themselves (to enable a separate showing of just one part, if necessary) and may possibly be split into two films. *Seeds of Sorrow:* Though the BJP romped home with a brute majority in the 2002 assembly elections, it suffered an electoral reverse during the 2004 Lok Sabha elections. The BJP managed to get 14 seats while the Congress won the other 12. The result is attributed in part to agitations by the Sangh's own Bharatiya Kisan Sabha, which was then agitating against the power tariff hike. In many pockets, it even asked its members to abstain from voting, which perhaps also explains the far lower turnout for the Lok Sabha elections. Over the last several months, we have been tracking what can only be termed as an unreported story - Farmer suicides in Gujarat. We have primarily been filming in the Saurashtra region, though suicides are not confined to this belt. A few months ago, we got queries filed under the RTI Act to dig up details of all suicides. Though the government denied us the data initially, after appeals and hearings, some details have now been formally handed to us. While Modi recently told the Gujarat Assembly that only 148 farmers have committed suicide in Gujarat, the data handed to us is for 366 suicides! We have also managed to dig up the data for all claims paid and denied under the Kisan Bima Yojana that cover farmers' accidental deaths. Of the 1200-odd claims, several have been denied – we are now probing the grounds of denial (eg, was it actually a suicide reported as an accident to help fudge the figures?) This film would also deal with the issue of farmer debts, BT cotton cultivation, power tariff, irrigation (where is the promised Narmada water?) and the opposition to SEZs Rajula and Jasapara. We are aiming to finish a version in early/mid October. To begin with, there would only be one version of the film - Gujarati, possibly with English subtitles. -- Prakash K Ray 254, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-67 www.cinemela.org (available soon) cinemela.blogspot.com (0) 9999 300 914 From crd at fondation-langlois.org Wed Sep 5 20:32:32 2007 From: crd at fondation-langlois.org (CR+D) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:02:32 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Daniel Langlois Foundation - 3rd DOCAM Annual Summit Message-ID: <5f33b2346019f836056143bc334de662@fdl-webmestre> 3rd DOCAM Annual Summit: Montreal, September 27, 2007 The Daniel Langlois Foundation is pleased to announce that the third annual Summit of the DOCAM Research Alliance (Documentation and Conservation of the Media Arts Heritage) will be held at The Montreal Museum of Fine Arts on September 27, 2007. DOCAM is a major multidisciplinary research endeavour initiated by the Daniel Langlois Foundation in collaboration with numerous national and international partners and funded by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada. The third annual international Summit will provide an opportunity for members of the DOCAM research committees to begin presenting their research results delving into the challenges of preserving and documenting technology-based works of art. Among the guest speakers slated to appear at the Summit are Richard Rinehart of the Berkeley Museum and Pacific Film Archives & Rina Pantalony from the Department of Justice Canada, Dieter Daniels, director of the Boltzmann Institute, and Canadian artist Stan Douglas. For more information and the complete Summit program, please consult the Alliance's Web site at: http://www.docam.ca/ e-art: New Technologies and Contemporary Art An international symposium organised by the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts in collaboration with the Daniel Langlois Foundation will be held on Friday, September 28, 2007, in the Maxwell Cummings Auditorium at the museum: http://www.mmfa.qc.ca/pdf/colloque_en.pdf This symposium takes place during e-art : New Technologies and Contemporary Art - Ten Years of Accomplishments by the Daniel Langlois Foundation, an exhibition co-produced by the Foundation and the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts and running from September 20 to December 9: http://www.fondation-langlois.org/flash/e/index.php?Lstsrv=200709&NumPage=2080 Grants for Researchers in Residence: Deadline September 30, 2007 The deadline for submission of research proposals for the Grants for Researchers in Residence Program is September 30, 2007. The two research components include: CR+D documentary collections and archival fonds and Information architecture and online publishing. As in previous years, the Daniel Langlois Foundation will award two research grants for 2008. The proposals selected will allow researchers to work at the Foundation's Centre for Research and Documentation (CR+D). An online application form is available on our Web site and must be used by all individuals wishing to apply for this program : http://www.fondation-langlois.org/flash/e/index.php?Lstsrv=200709&NumPage=121 To view the list of researchers supported by the Foundation : http://www.fondation-langlois.org/flash/e/index.php?Lstsrv=200709&NumPage=148 Research Residencies at OBORO: Deadline September 30, 2007 The project proposal submission deadline for Research and Experimentation Residencies in Montreal for Professional Artists from Emerging Countries or Regions is September 30, 2007. The Daniel Langlois Foundation offers this program in collaboration with OBORO, an artist-run centre in Montreal. Two residency grants will be offered to professional artists from emerging countries. These grants aim to help the successful applicants in their research, experiments and project development, while allowing them to work in a different environment than their region or country of origin. An online application form is available on our Web site and must be used by all individuals wishing to apply for this program: http://www.fondation-langlois.org/flash/e/index.php?Lstsrv=200709&NumPage=516 _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From safar.delhi at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 00:11:09 2007 From: safar.delhi at gmail.com (Safar Delhi) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 00:11:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Next Phase Of SAFAR Message-ID: *The Next Phase Of SAFAR * Dear Friends Greetings from SAFAR! As all you know that SAFAR has been working almost for the last two years. During this period it has organized 'Abhivyakti'11 01 & 02 to celebrate Dr. Baba Sahab Bhimrao Ambedkar's birth anniversary, held discussions, seminars and workshop on the issues of caste, gender, media, RTI, legal awareness & aid camps in various parts of Delhi, took part in Indian Social Forum 2006, began Shikshaghar, Kitabghar and Clubs in Seohar and Bhagalpur district of Bihar and recently attended a film making workshop organized by Shikshantar in Udaipur, Rajsthan and also organized an interactive meeting with a delegation of development activists form Pakistan in Delhi. Till now the organization has not paid attention to the dissemination & publicity of its work. The first brochure in Hindi (The English version is still to come) came out this May. As far the publicity is concerned, some of the activities of SAFAR was covered by The Times of India, Sahara Time, www.anubhaw.blogspot.com and DD news. This May* 3 new volunteers* Rajeev Raman, Nitu and Shamreen from Ambedkar College joined SAFAR. They along with Chanchal did an ethnographic study of two resettlement colonies Holambi Kalan and Holambi Khurd in outer Delhi, while Shamreen has done a similar study in Mustafabad, in the east Delhi. Reports based on both the studies is likely to come out by the end of September 2007. This is a fact that whatever SAFAR has done in the last 20-21 months, was spontaneous without any plan. Yes, it has a proper understanding of the situation and also the agenda and to some extent a group of volunteers also, but no plan and proper fund mechanism other than some issue & event based support from some organization and individual friends & well-wishers. Now, when the organization is going to complete 2 years of its inception the team members have felt the need of a proper organizational set up and a work-plan. Keeping this necessity in mind, last Sunday (2nd September 2007) the working committee met in New Delhi. Following are the outcomes: 1. *Space: *SAFAR does not have proper space yet. This is a big hindrance in the coordination of day to day activities. It was decided in the meeting to arrange a work space as the earliest. 1. *Future plan of activities of SAFAR delhi: * * * *a. *Now it is decided that SAFAR will concentrate on Colleges and schools. Organization can interact with the students and teachers with its modules on media and law. *b. *RTI camps can also be held at these places alternatively. In the first round the organization can focus on the colleges and schools situated on the periphery of Delhi, because these colleges have many infrastructural problems. *c. *It was also felt that that some members of SAFAR team can assist the students of media courses. This could be a root of the flow of volunteers to the organization. *d. *Apart from the localities the legal cell of SAFAR will organsie legal aid & awareness camps in the schools and colleges also. Legal team will also organize workshops around the issue of violence, human rights, gender etc, which are directly related to people's everyday life. *e. *Experimenting with various media forms will be one of the main activities of SAFAR. From October 2007, the organization will start a 8 page newsletter in Hindi (which can be published in English after a couple of months) and also start a community video unit with the production of small films and animations probably in November 2007. *f. *It was also decided that apart form the above mentioned activities, the organization will try to associate with other programmes, struggles, movements, etc of people's interest in Delhi. 1. *Finance :* Money do matters to function smoothly, but till now SAFAR does not have any reliable source of fund. Big activities have been organizing with the support of like minded organizations and individuals, while the expense of everyday activities always been shared by few core members. It was felt in the meeting that this kind of casual approach is insufficient for the sustenance of the organization. Till now organization's monthly expense (other than space) is roughly around rs. 3000/-. Since the need of space is also being felt, there is a need of 08-10, 000/-. It was also decided that each of the core members will do maximum effort to increase the *membership* and also take monthly monetary commitment from the members. These all together will help the organization to improve its financial health. The members were also agreed upon to get professional jobs from other organizations and individuals to fulfill organizational financial need. The team members can extend professional help in the field of research, translation, editing, design, and also can provide facilitators & trainers for workshops/training programmes on the issue of caste, gender, media & law. 1. *British Council* has offered free English classes to the volunteers of SAFAR, which was applauded by the team members. Some of them expressed their desire to learn the same. Now the process of materializing the same will be started. 1. *Division of work*: (i) Coordinator, University Mr. Pradeep Kumar Singh (ii) Coordinator, Legal Cell Ms. Chandra Nigam (iii) Coordinator, School Mr. Naresh Kumar (iv) Coordinator, Research Mr. Naresh Goswami (v) Coordinator, Outreach Mr. Adityanath (vi) Coordinator, Media & Publication Ms. Bhawna (vii) Coordinator, Student Unit Ms. Chanchal Mehlawat (viii) Coordinator, Finance Mr. Sheetal Shyam (ix) SAFAR Delhi Co-ordinator Mr. Gautam Jayprakash 1. *Forthcoming activities: *SAFAR*, *Delhi will organize a series of workshop on media, law & RTI act in the coming months. Following is the tentative schedule: Media Worshop*: * Time & Date: 10.30 am, 15th Septemeber, 2007 Venue: Dr. B R Ambedkar College, DU RTI workshop: Date: Second Saturday of October 2007 Venue: Tis hazari Court/Karkarduma Court/ Faculty of Law?/Delhi School of Social Work RTI Camp Time & Date: 10 am, 8 September, 2007 Venue: Manoranjan Kaksha, DA Flats, Timarpur Besides the above mentioned things the organization discussed the development of *SAFAR Bihar* also. Currently 5 Shikshaghars (informal education centers), one Kitabghar (library), one club is running in Tariyani Chhapra village of Seohar district. Recently 3 volunteers from the same village had attended a 10 day residential film making workshop in Shikshantar, Udaipur. Now they are in the process of setting up a Mediaghar (a media lab) there with the help of some more volunteers. A laptop and a camcorder were given to them (with the support of PALAS) to start the community media project. But the team members felt that merely these equipments are not sufficient to set up the mediaghar. They need to have some more logistical support such as technological know how, space, proper power supply etc. It was also decided that the organization should think about having at least a week long residential camps there, where besides media some other issue of local concern can be discussed, which will help them to do their work. Rakesh will be responsible to coordinate the work of SAFAR Bihar with the help of local volunteers. He will also be assisting the Delhi team. * * *Our partners & associates* Several organizations and individuals including Insaf-Delhi, Kriti, Satark Nagrik Sangathan (SNS), PALAS & Nav-Srijan, Asmita Theater Group, Youthreach and Pravah have helped SAFAR in carrying out its activities. The organization thanks all of them and wishes to maintain and sustain this association, and is ready to collaborate with them in future. Your suggestions and support are most welcome Warm regards Gautam & Rakesh for safar team -- SAFAR a collective journey of researchers, journalists, students, lawyers, activists, cultural practitioners and performing artists with a deep commitment to the ideals of social and gender equality. This is an open space for the dialogue, betterment and empowerment of the marginalized. http://www.freewebs.com/safarindia From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Wed Sep 5 11:35:49 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:05:49 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Of ingrates and hypocrites In-Reply-To: <960785.98401.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <960785.98401.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <948aaa2150d2c3dc39a26fe005a5c9ba@mail.xtdnet.nl> Dear Kshemendra, Where is this nation? Can you specifically point out and show where is this nation? Can you also tell me whether it is justified that someone/some people should be forced to be part of this nation family when they do not want to be? Thanks, Z On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 20:27:37 -0700 (PDT), Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > INTERESTING PARALLEL: > > It takes years to make a Nation. It takes the blood, sweat and tears of > many to build it and try and keep it secure. > > Yet, you will find in the Nation some who feed off it but are intent on > attacking it and supporting those who want to break-up the Nation. These > are the enemy within. > > These self-centered and self-obsessed ingrates will pontificate over the > need to protect the integrity of a Virtual Nation ("intellectual > community") they might have help build, but they will not hesitate to > undermine the Nation that allows the "reality" of their existence to be > functional. > > Kshmendra Kaul. > > > Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > This is a list for discussion. Personal queries to individuals may be > please not asked through the list. > > It takes years to build and make an intellectual community. It takes > a few days to destroy it. > > Please treat the subscribers with some respect. > > warmly > jeebesh > > On 04-Sep-07, at 11:48 AM, we wi wrote: > >> Hi Vedavati, >> >> You Did not answered my 2nd question on caste and >> marriages in INDIA. Anyway may I know what your husband do? Can I >> have his email address please? >> >> Regards, >> Dhatri. >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Building a website is a piece of cake. >> Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From turbulence at turbulence.org Tue Sep 4 19:59:56 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:29:56 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Turbulence Commission: "Superfund365, A Site-A-Day" by Brooke Singer Message-ID: <005a01c7ef00$246b78d0$6d426a70$@org> September 4, 2007 Turbulence Commission: "Superfund365, A Site-A-Day" by Brooke Singer http://transition.turbulence.org/works/superfund/ "Superfund365, A Site-A-Day" is an online data visualization application with an accompanying RSS-feed and email alert system. Each day for a year "Superfund365" will visit one toxic site currently active in the Superfund program run by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). We begin the journey in the New York City area and work our way across the country, ending the year in Hawaii. In the end, the archive will consist of 365 visualizations of some of the worst toxic sites in the U.S., roughly a quarter of the total number on the Superfund's National Priorities List (NPL). Along the way, we will conduct video interviews with people involved with or impacted by Superfund. Content changes every day so be sure to visit often or use the subscribe tools to have content delivered to you. CREDITS "Superfund365" is conceived, designed and produced by Brooke Singer. The programming and Flash guru behind the project is John Kuiphoff. Kurt Olmstead provides business analysis and additional programming. Emily Gallagher is assisting with project research and EPA relations. Camera and sound work by Andrew Rueland. "Superfund365" is a 2007 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc. for its Turbulence website. It was made possible with funding from the Jerome Foundation. Additional funding was provided by New York Foundation for the Arts (NYFA). BIOGRAPHY Brooke Singer is a digital media artist who lives in New York City. Her work provides entry into important social issues that are often characterized as specialized or opaque to a general public. She likes to work with emerging technologies not only because they are fun but also because they are contingent and malleable. She is co-founder of the art, technology and activist group, Preemptive Media, and Assistant Professor of New Media at Purchase College. Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon Sep 3 15:11:45 2007 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (artNET) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:41:45 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_call_for_entries?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3A_3rd_Digital_Art_Festival_Rosario/Argentina?= Message-ID: <20070903114145.95CFD603.E7893E14@192.168.0.3> Call for entries Deadline: 7 October 2007 The International Digital Art Festival Rosario/Argentina 15, 16, 17 November 2007 will be organised in 2007 for the 3rd time. Rosario, the 2nd largest city of Argentina is said to be the secret capital in concern of digital art and e-music. The festival invites artists for submitting digital works in different categories ---> netart, video, photography, modified games, interactive CDs, installation & performance, e-music. The detailed call, the entry rules and submission form can be found on http://netex.nmartproject.net/?p=137 --------------------------------------------------- netEX - networked exprience http://netex.nmartproject.net powered by [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne www.nmartproject.net - the experiemental platform for art and New Media from Cologne/Germany ---------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mitoo at sarai.net Wed Sep 5 13:53:30 2007 From: mitoo at sarai.net (mitoo at sarai.net) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:53:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_=28no_subject=29?= Message-ID: Dear Friend, Greetings from Chintan! There are many reasons why waste recyclers find themselves marginalized in global cities. One is that they are not legally recognized as legitimate service providers. In India, we totally lack the imagination to integrate indigenous private service providers with the needs of our expanding cities and simultaneously addressing poverty. Chintan has been working along with other organizations to understand how policy can be inclusive. In the last one year, there have been many global studies, exchanges and research in this regard. To share these global case studies we are organizing a discussion. Venue : Conference Room - III, India International Centre (IIC). Date : 13th September, 2007. Time : 6pm to 9pm. The confirmed speakers are: - Dr. Yamini Gupt: presenting a global study on the Economic Aspects of Informal Sector activity in Solid Waste Management. - Santraj Maurya of Chintan: Santraj, who was notoriously not allowed to board an Alitalia flight, will be talking about the informal sector initiatives and his experiences in Cairo, Egypt. - Bharati Chaturvedi: discussing the global policy experiences about the informal recycling sector. We request your participation in this discussion. Thanking you Sincerely Aagney Sail Program Officer, Mobile - 9910270067 Chintan Environmental Research and Action Group, C-14, Lajpat Nagar III, 2nd Floor New Delhi -110024 Phone : +91-11-46574171, 46574172, 46574173 Fax : +91-11-46574174 _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Wed Sep 5 13:34:42 2007 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (JavaMuseum) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:04:42 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_call_for_entries?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3A_netart_wanted!?= Message-ID: <20070905100442.9F85A78A.9C57F1B7@192.168.0.3> Call for proposals deadline 31 October 2007 JavaMuseum- Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art www.javamuseum.org is looking for Internet based art (netart) for a series of features starting in November 2007 on occasion of NewMediaFest2007. In this framework, the first of these features will become the third exhibition component besides the shows -"Seven Ways for Saying Internet with Net Art" curated by Elena Julia Rossi (Rome), who is, among others, also responsable for the netart shows at MAXXI - National Museum of 21st Century Rome/Italy - and "a+b=ba? art +blog=blogart?" JavaMuseum, founded in 2000 as a virtual museum, is one of the relevant platforms for Internet based art on the net. Under the direction of Wilfried Agricola de Cologne, JavaMuseum realised 18 showcases and competitions of netart in a global context between 2001 and 2005 and is hosting a comprehensive collection of netart from the years 2000-2004 including more than 350 artists. In 2006 and 2007, JavaMuseum was undergoing a restructuration phase and launched JIP - JavaMuseum Interview Project - http://jip.javamuseum.org, which will contain more than 100 interviews by professionals in the field of art and New Media. after its relaunch in November 2007. JavaMuseum is looking for netart projects, which are completed after 1 January 2004 and not part of JavaMuseum, yet, max. 5 project proposals can be submitted. The entry form can be found on http://netex.nmartproject.net/?p=138 >--------------------------------------------- JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art www.javamuseum.org info (at) javamuseum.org powered by [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and New Media from Cologne/Germany. _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From rebelliouskoshur at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 6 14:46:45 2007 From: rebelliouskoshur at yahoo.co.uk (Rebellious Koshur) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:16:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] Of ingrates and hypocrites In-Reply-To: <960785.98401.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <92298.8349.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Kshmendra Kaul, Blood, sweat and tears are used to make a Company also. India continues the legacy of East India Company. They too worked very hard those days to consolidate the British Indian Empire. In today's world all States are big companies and not Nations as such. India is a company which is retaining all what it has grabbed, purchased, occupied and secured through inheritance. I am talking about State of India and not the Nation. I hope you know the difference. Kashmir is nation and India is a state. My dear Kashmiri Pandit brothers you have deceived your own nation Kashmir time and again and yet you blame Muslims for being anti-national and communal. How pathetic Your communal leaning towards Indian state has made you blind and you have forgotten your ROOTS. For Resistance, Qalab Hussain Kshmendra Kaul wrote: INTERESTING PARALLEL: It takes years to make a Nation. It takes the blood, sweat and tears of many to build it and try and keep it secure. Yet, you will find in the Nation some who feed off it but are intent on attacking it and supporting those who want to break-up the Nation. These are the enemy within. These self-centered and self-obsessed ingrates will pontificate over the need to protect the integrity of a Virtual Nation ("intellectual community") they might have help build, but they will not hesitate to undermine the Nation that allows the "reality" of their existence to be functional. Kshmendra Kaul. Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: This is a list for discussion. Personal queries to individuals may be please not asked through the list. It takes years to build and make an intellectual community. It takes a few days to destroy it. Please treat the subscribers with some respect. warmly jeebesh On 04-Sep-07, at 11:48 AM, we wi wrote: > Hi Vedavati, > > You Did not answered my 2nd question on caste and > marriages in INDIA. Anyway may I know what your husband do? Can I > have his email address please? > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > --------------------------------- > Building a website is a piece of cake. > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now... From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 16:40:02 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 04:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Of ingrates and hypocrites In-Reply-To: <92298.8349.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <692033.10904.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Qalab You have called me a brother. You are my brother too Sir. Kashmiri brother and not Muslim or Pandit or whatever. The "ingrates and hypocrites" comment had a context from earlier communications. It referred to "some" Indians and not specifically to any religion or region or ethnicity. If you want to be specific, then the generalisation "Muslims are anti-national and communal" is not my refrain. "Islam & Muslims" is as much a part of India as any other grouping. The "anti-national and communal" can be of any religion, region, ethnicity. You have picked on the word "Nation" and made your comments and statements. Please tell me, if you would like to, what is the "Kashmir Nation" you refer to. - is it of the people of Kashmir Valley alone? - is it of linguistically and ethnically Kashmiris alone? - is it those and in addition the Dogras, Ladakhis, Gojars, Baltis, Gilgitis, Muzaffarabadis & Mirpuris (both Saraiki and Punjabi speaking) etc? - how is the "Kashmir Nation" defined? - at what point of time from the past does it pick up the "Kashmir Nation" identity and why is that point chosen? Kshmendra Kaul Rebellious Koshur wrote: Kshmendra Kaul, Blood, sweat and tears are used to make a Company also. India continues the legacy of East India Company. They too worked very hard those days to consolidate the British Indian Empire. In today's world all States are big companies and not Nations as such. India is a company which is retaining all what it has grabbed, purchased, occupied and secured through inheritance. I am talking about State of India and not the Nation. I hope you know the difference. Kashmir is nation and India is a state. My dear Kashmiri Pandit brothers you have deceived your own nation Kashmir time and again and yet you blame Muslims for being anti-national and communal. How pathetic Your communal leaning towards Indian state has made you blind and you have forgotten your ROOTS. For Resistance, Qalab Hussain Kshmendra Kaul wrote: INTERESTING PARALLEL: It takes years to make a Nation. It takes the blood, sweat and tears of many to build it and try and keep it secure. Yet, you will find in the Nation some who feed off it but are intent on attacking it and supporting those who want to break-up the Nation. These are the enemy within. These self-centered and self-obsessed ingrates will pontificate over the need to protect the integrity of a Virtual Nation ("intellectual community") they might have help build, but they will not hesitate to undermine the Nation that allows the "reality" of their existence to be functional. Kshmendra Kaul. Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: This is a list for discussion. Personal queries to individuals may be please not asked through the list. It takes years to build and make an intellectual community. It takes a few days to destroy it. Please treat the subscribers with some respect. warmly jeebesh On 04-Sep-07, at 11:48 AM, we wi wrote: > Hi Vedavati, > > You Did not answered my 2nd question on caste and > marriages in INDIA. Anyway may I know what your husband do? Can I > have his email address please? > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > --------------------------------- > Building a website is a piece of cake. > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now... --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 16:45:43 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 04:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Slaughterhouse In-Reply-To: <46DE508B.9040504@sarai.net> Message-ID: <415283.16294.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shveta Loved it. Thank you. Kshmendra Shveta wrote: Dear All, This text, "The Slaughterhouse", is by Arish Quraishy. Arish, 20, was associated with the Cybermohalla lab at LNJP for a few months, then left to work at the slaughterhouse, only to return a few months later with this text. He continues to work and be associated with the LNJP lab now. The text has been translated from hindi. warmly shveta ---------------------- The Slaughterhouse by Arish Quraishy Today is my sixteenth day. It's 4:00 AM, at home everyone is still asleep. Everyday at this hour I wear my dirty work clothes, put a fresh set of clothes in a bag and set out for the shop by quarter past four. I read the /kalma/ under my breath each day as I go. First, I take a three wheeler to the market. The driver takes five passengers in one vehicle and takes five rupees from each passenger. I always sit between two people so that I am protected from the cold. But that day luck was not on my side. One old uncle wanted to take my place so he wouldn't feel cold. He said he wasn't feeling well and asked if I would let him sit in my place. I shifted towards the side which was open to the outside. It was 4:20 in the morning, it was very cold, and the three wheeler was moving fast. It was quite dark. Because of the speed, the route of 24 minutes was covered in 10 minutes. I got off at the goat market. Everyone paid the auto driver five rupees in change and went towards their work. The goat market is a big market. Lakhs of goats, sheep and buffaloes are cut here from three in the morning. But this is not my destination; I'm going to the hen market. The Kasabpura police station lies in the way. This place has several names. Someone calls it Kasabpura, someone Sadar police station, someone Idgah. On the way, three men were passing with forty goats. One man pulled a goat by its ear; the goat bleated loudly, holding back, falling, then moving. The remaining thirty nine goats followed quietly behind him and the two remaining men beat them with sticks from time to time to make them move in line. I wondered how dragging one goat by its ear can control an entire army of goats. The goat right in front can sense it's going to be killed and so it struggles. One refuses to move because of fear of death and the goats behind follow him for fear of getting their ears pulled. I reached my godown, put the bag with my clothes in one place and went down to the shop. There are many shops that sell chicken on this street. The surroundings are spacious. There are several buildings and people who have homes here have raised their height over time. The godown in which I work is managed by my close relatives; they own two big godowns on this street. The godown has several nets; each net holds about sixty hens. If all the nets get filled, the remaining hens are let loose on the ground. One godown can hold roughly 7000 hens. Walking towards the godown I saw the truck on the road in front of it was filled with crates with hens. Two men had climbed on top of the truck and were taking down the crates one by one. Men in pairs would take hold of the crates from below and throw them on the ground with such force that even the hens sleeping in them would wake up. Each crate weighs around 18 to 24 kilos. After all the crates are brought down, all the men begin pulling the hens out from them. There were fourteen of us in all that morning. Four were from Nepal, seven from Bihar and three, including me, were locals. The way the hens are pulled out of the crates is by holding four in one hand and two in the other and throwing them to a side. Once a crate is emptied, it weighs ten kilos. When the crates begin to get empty, one man climbs up the truck again and as everyone passes him back the crates, he pulls them up and lines them up in the truck. In this way, we fill up both the godowns before sunrise. It was our challenge to all the set-ups along the entire road that if anyone else manages to finish this work before us, we would give them Rs 10,000. The entire road knew no one was as quick as us. One of the men from Nepal told me this; he is my friend, his name is Chi Chi. By 7:00 AM we have between 300 to 400 hens ready in the net for cutting. Two drums are kept next to these nets. As the hens are cut, they are thrown inside these drums. One person holds the hen, the other cuts it. The knives used are so sharp that if someone's finger comes in the way it gets cut to an extent that it needs stitching back together. A drum holds about 150 hens. After it fills, it needs to be turned over and emptied. The one who cuts the hens also empties the drums. That day I was really out of luck, because I was the one cutting the hens. The man from Bihar who was holding down the hens for me said, “Arish, empty the drums.” Now I have emptied drums with 40 to 60 hens before, but I've never emptied one with 150 hens. I went and stood near the drum. Immediately, the smell – no not the smell but the vapours from the drum – they hit my brain. I felt dizzy. I turned to this man and said I was feeling dizzy. He told me not to worry, that this happens in the beginning, that I would get used to it in time. I said ok. The drum was filled till the top. Hens had fallen one on top of the other, all of them wet with the red blood; mouths were open, eyes shut and the veins from the necks protruded out. There are two doors to the shop. One, which is the main door, is made of glass. Customers come in through it and meat readied for sale is also brought into the shop through it. Next to it, by the wall, is quite a big fridge in which frozen hens are kept. Across from it is a counter where the munshi sits and records all transactions. A huge weighing balance is kept there; we call it /kaanta/. Knives of different sizes are kept by the /kaanta/. A man sits there and cuts and weighs the hens. All the labour sits beneath his bench on a wooden platform in a row. One quickly cuts off the wings, claws and tail end of the hens, which is once again thrown onto the floor. Another picks up one hen at a time and peels it like a banana. These men are so skilled that they can unclothe a hen, chuck its casing to a side and fling the hen next to the man sitting on the bench above them in ten seconds. It was the man again, “What are you thinking? Empty the drum or the consignment will get spoiled.” Saying “sorry, sorry” I titled the top of the drum towards the shop and tried to lift it from below; but I couldn't do it. I said, “/Yaar/, I can't lift it, it's too heavy for me.” He said, “OK, I will hold it from this side and you hold it from the other.” We lifted the drum together and turned it over. It took us more than one minute to do this. All the men in the shop began to cheer to encourage me. Then they clapped and poked fun at me, “Wow Arish, you are one powerful guy.” I laughed. I was thinking, all the effort was this other man, the real muscle power – why are they giving me accolades? I am so thin and he is so well built. I said, “Come on, let it be!” Then I stepped out onto the road. There is a hotel next to our shop. Nihari is prepared here in a huge vessel, by lighting wood under it. It gives out so much smoke that it makes your eyes smart. All this smoke makes its way inside our shop because of which we have to keep the door to the shop closed and also keep telling the people working in the hotel, “Come on, use a fan to direct the smoke in the other direction.” At around 9:00 AM, I have to set off with a slip to the /chacha/ who make tea. There is a small noting pad in our shop and it has a slip which says '14 cups of tea and 14 rusks'. I remind someone, “/Bhai,/ it is time for tea”, and am handed this slip and I go to the tea shop. The tea shop is near the other godown. /Chacha/ always wears /kurta-pyjama/ and covers his head with a /topi/. His shop is very small. It has a huge saucer for frying which is always filled with milk and next to it lies a table with a gas burner on it. /Chacha/ makes tea on a frying pan on this burner. Cups, glasses and saucers for serving tea are kept close by. There is a young boy in //chacha//'s shop who cleans the table and washes the used cups, glasses and saucers and arranges them back in their place in a single row. I handed the slip to /chacha/ and said, “Send the tea and the rusks over to our place quickly.” /Chacha/ said, “The boy has just stepped out on a chore and it will be some time before he returns. Why don't you wait and take the tea with you. ” I sat down. Just then a man came and sat next to me. He looked drunk from the previous night and it seemed to me he had come to /chacha/'s shop to drink tea and get over his hangover. He was very quiet and his body was swaying. Then he turned to me and said, “Can you give me some water to drink. I am feeling a bit dizzy.” I gave him water, he thanked me, and I said it was no problem. Then he became quiet again. By then /chacha/ had started preparing our tea. What I like about //chacha/ /is that he always uses fresh tea leaves so his tea turns out well. Sitting there I suddenly thought for a moment, “If only I was here by myself and not here on work. I would have had no worry nor anxiety about work, and would have sat here comfortably drinking my cup of tea, watching others doing their work. There, someone is out in the sun, pulling hens out of crates and cutting them, someone is packing them, someone is taking the packed parcels and loading them onto rickshas, someone is passing on his way to somewhere else, someone is rushing past. Cars, rickshas, trucks, scooters – all these pass by here and it's always crowded between 8:00 in the morning to 2:00 in the afternoon...” Tea was ready and I took the tray with the glasses of tea in one hand and the rusks in the other and head back towards my shop. On seeing me, everyone stopped work and got up to wash their hands to have tea. Each person picks up one glass and one rusk and settles down with them in their own corners. I wash my hands. Hands must be scrubbed very well because there is no soap. After drinking tea we will all get down to pulling the outer skin off the hens and our hands will get dirty again. The way to peel a hen is very specific. First hold the hen in one hand and pull one of its legs. It's skin will tear. Insert four fingers under the skin and pull with abrupt force. The skin will come off from one side. Then do the same thing with the other leg. Now turn the hen over and break its head from the neck. Push your fingers into its stomach and pull out its intestines and discard them to one side. I keep thinking Babli, Nasreen or Neelofar would find this very difficult to look at. Because in the beginning I had found it very difficult as well and I had thrown up. I didn't like being in this environment at all. But work is work, after all, and I had to endure. I didn't have any options. By noon, all the work is done and cleaning begins. We collect everything that has been discarded with /phawdas/ and collect them into wheelbarrows. These are then taken to the big garbage dump behind the Idgah. I have never seen such quantity of garbage as I have seen in this garbage dump. We finish doing this by 12:30. The shop is washed by spraying water from the taps by using one meter long hose pipes, soap and brooms. Blood and tissue that remains stuck to the walls is scraped off with knives. No one walking into our shop after 1:00 PM will be able to make out the place was so dirty in the morning. By afternoon, the place doesn't look like a shop but a showroom. Then everyone goes to the godown to bathe. After bathing, those who live there will cook. They eat chicken and rice everyday. Someone takes a bath immediately, and someone goes to sleep first. Everyone is very tired by this time. I bathe, get into my fresh set of clothes and make my way to the market to catch a ricksha ride to Paharganj. From there I take a bus home. At home, I eat and lie down to sleep, thinking, “Why do the hens have to be thrown around so much?” Arish // March 2007 // LNJP Lab Translation 1.0 // July 2007 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. From shikha.j at hotmail.com Thu Sep 6 18:59:11 2007 From: shikha.j at hotmail.com (shikha jhingan) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:59:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Announcement: Screening Message-ID: Screening of a film on Partition The Sky Below (75 min; 2007; Dvcam; English) A film by Sarah Singh who will introduce the screening Sept. 12th 6.30 pm India Intl Centre >From the shared, ancient history of the Indus Civilization, the people of the Northwest area of the Subcontinent have connections that go back millennia. In 1947, the partition of this region left a legacy of suspicion and a profound inability to reconcile this political divide. From Kutch to Kashmir and from Karachi to the Khyber Pass, some of the ground realities of the lingering fallout are explored; and also, if reconciliation is possible between two countries with interwoven histories…some 60 years of strained relations and the unresolved crisis in Kashmir. >From both sides of the border, first - person stories from the time of Partition are recounted. A former terrorist, politicians, royalty, ordinary citizens, historians, and others share their insights of the past, present, and future of this volatile, yet emerging South Asian economic block Folk singers recorded live in their surroundings, found footage, verite and conceptual location shooting, contemporary and archival still photography are merged to emphasize the contrasted realities which compose this culturally connected, yet politically disconnected , region Screening will be followed by a discussion (Collaboration: Seher) _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It�s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 19:25:46 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 06:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0709010230k4568a66do582ae68a35e9c21a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2536.25891.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yasir Long overdue. Didnt want to let it go. Fleetingly addressing ".....they both received a similar religious education while growing up in Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that sounds." For me there is not much of a contradiction. Both were revolutionaries. Both had a "sufi" bent of mind. Both seemed to celeberate "khudi". In my opinion the seeming contradiction might arise out of a limited understanding of Iqbal. More philosopher than "Islamist" (also more Philosopher than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who primarily stuck to the finest precepts from the "Quran" (somewhat a Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not the work of an ordinary soul subscribing to the "expected". In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on of Jinnah) was more towards "a Nation for Muslims" rather than an "Islamic (shariah) Nation". The 1940 Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent Assembly speech are just 2 pointers. I am sure I sound quite disjointed. Khair. Thanks for Maniza Naqvi's translation of "Hum Daikhaingay". I thought the "anthem", the challenge, the rousing up, the defiance is missing. Here is an interesting 'variation' by Raamesh Gowri Raghavan. In his words: Here is a transcreation based on Faiz A Faiz's revolutionary Urdu nazm 'Hum dekhenge', and written to the metre of another revolutionary song, the Marseillaise. "Destiny" Fear no more my fellow countrymen The day we dreamed of has now come! Oh! See the vile ziggurats crumble Reduced to ignominous dust! Reduced to ignominous dust! Can you hear the revolution Rumble in the angry streets It thunders fire and lightning To strike the oppressors' nemesis! Our destiny is come The day given to us Arise! Arise! For the cast-iron pledge Must now be redeemed! Fear no more my fellow countrymen The day we dreamed of has now come! Look! From the temple of our faith The evil is now exorcised! The evil is now exorcised! The good are now restored to their High exaltations again! See the generals' stars stripped away And their thrones, their baubles destroyed! Our destiny is come The day given to us Arise! Arise! For the cast-iron pledge Must now be redeemed! Fear no more my fellow countrymen The day we dreamed of has now come! Only His name shall prevail: Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! He Oversees, is the Overseen His reign shall persist forever! For He is I and He is You He is I and He is You! Our destiny is come The day given to us Arise! Arise! For the cast-iron pledge Must now be redeemed! The original by Faiz"- "Hum dekhenge Lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhenge Wo din ke jis ka wada hai Jo looh-e-azl pe likha hai Hum dekhenge Jab zulm-o-sitam ke koh-e-garan Rooi ki tarah ud jayenge Hum mehkoomon ke paaon tale Ye dharti dhad dhad dhadakegi Aur ahl-e-hukum ke sar oopar Jab bijli kad kad kadakegi Hum dekhenge Jab arz-e-Khuda ke kaabe se Sab butth uthwae jayenge Hum ahl-e-safa mardood-e-haram Masnad pe bithaye jayenge Sab taaj uchhaale jayenge Sab takht giraaye jayenge Hum dekhenge Bas naam rahega Allah ka Jo ghayab bhi hai hazir bhi Jo naazir bhi hai manzar bhi Uthega an-al-Haq ka nara Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho Aur raaj karegi Khalq-e-Khuda Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho Hum dekhenge Lazim hai ki hum bhi dekhenge Hum dekhenge" Kshmendra Kaul yasir ~ wrote: I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that both sides (or as many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and Muhammad Iqbal - Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri quoting Meray Dil Meray Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an unimportant note that they both received a similar religious education while growing up in Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that sounds. I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum Dekhenge. it becoming an anthem during the zia years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc _________________________________________ --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. From vrjogi at hotmail.com Thu Sep 6 21:23:16 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:53:16 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house In-Reply-To: <46CFDB16.3010905@gmail.com> References: <46CFDB16.3010905@gmail.com> Message-ID: yes, kshemendra, my mails are being blocked by sarai and i am not surprised because this is the real nature of secularism practiced in india. this secularism will lead to disaster i am sure. few decades back britishers encouraged muslim separatism which ultimately resulted into partition. today same great job is being done by psudosecularists and i will not be surprised if one day muslims again start giving same slogan 'islam khatareme hai' leading the nation to many more partitions. 'gujrat' is a 'shame' but 'kashmir' is not! when one babri was pulled down then so many riots (initiated by muslims) took place more over their acts were justified by psudosecularists but many temples were pulled down in kashmir ...spineless hindus did not feel bad and ofcourse psudo secularists kept their mouths shut. list is very big. this is secularism. if you feel what i have written is not wrong please distribute it. thanks vj From: vrjogi at hotmail.comTo: tapasrayx at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.netSubject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's houseDate: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:21:04 +0000 no i am not suffering from any mental problem, i only tell the truth which psudo secularists can not digest. vedavati > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:02:38 +0530> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > Please do not forward anything to me in future. I do not appreciate it.> > For your information, I have already received from Reader-list the mail > you claim was blocked and have forwarded to me offlist.> > I suspect you may be suffering from some type of delusion or paranoia.> > TR> > > Vedavati Jogi wrote:> > i have no alternative but to forward this mail to all of you > > individually as readers list people don't dare to publish my mail.> > i request all of you to please read this correspondance. views expressed > > by people like roger are posing real threat to this country' unity.> > > > vedavati> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > From: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > To: rgdj12 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house> > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:55:48 +0000> > > > pakistan is an enemy so i don't blame them as they are doing what an> > enemy is supposed to do. i am talking against psudoseculars like> > you. nobody has blocked minority advancement in india otherwise> > shahruhk, irfan pathan, zakir hussin, javed akhtar would not have Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here! _________________________________________________________________ Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! http://get.live.com/en-ie/messenger/overview From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 22:09:06 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear VJ I do not know what the glitch was if any, but this last mail of yours has come through SARAI. Your address in Subscribers List continues to show in parentheses which means your list delivery is disabled. KK Vedavati Jogi wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } yes, kshemendra, my mails are being blocked by sarai and i am not surprised because this is the real nature of secularism practiced in india. this secularism will lead to disaster i am sure. few decades back britishers encouraged muslim separatism which ultimately resulted into partition. today same great job is being done by psudosecularists and i will not be surprised if one day muslims again start giving same slogan 'islam khatareme hai' leading the nation to many more partitions. 'gujrat' is a 'shame' but 'kashmir' is not! when one babri was pulled down then so many riots (initiated by muslims) took place more over their acts were justified by psudosecularists but many temples were pulled down in kashmir ...spineless hindus did not feel bad and ofcourse psudo secularists kept their mouths shut. list is very big. this is secularism. if you feel what i have written is not wrong please distribute it. thanks vj --------------------------------- From: vrjogi at hotmail.com To: tapasrayx at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net Subject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:21:04 +0000 .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_body.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} no i am not suffering from any mental problem, i only tell the truth which psudo secularists can not digest. vedavati > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:02:38 +0530 > From: tapasrayx at gmail.com > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > Please do not forward anything to me in future. I do not appreciate it. > > For your information, I have already received from Reader-list the mail > you claim was blocked and have forwarded to me offlist. > > I suspect you may be suffering from some type of delusion or paranoia. > > TR > > > Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > i have no alternative but to forward this mail to all of you > > individually as readers list people don't dare to publish my mail. > > i request all of you to please read this correspondance. views expressed > > by people like roger are posing real threat to this country' unity. > > > > vedavati > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > To: rgdj12 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house > > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:55:48 +0000 > > > > pakistan is an enemy so i don't blame them as they are doing what an > > enemy is supposed to do. i am talking against psudoseculars like > > you. nobody has blocked minority advancement in india otherwise > > shahruhk, irfan pathan, zakir hussin, javed akhtar would not have --------------------------------- Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here! --------------------------------- Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here! --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 22:38:46 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 22:38:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Convention on INDIA-US NUCLEAR DEAL AND INDIA'S SOVEREIGNTY Message-ID: <98f331e00709061008l56b21b70w511a3c8ecdb2123c@mail.gmail.com> Committee on India's Independent Foreign Policy INDIA-US NUCLEAR DEAL AND INDIA'S SOVEREIGNTY 10th September, 3.00 pm to 7.00 pm, Mavlankar Hall, Rafi Marg, New Delhi Dear Friends, The Indo-US Nuclear Deal, in the form of the "123" Agreement with the US, cannot be seen in isolation. It needs to be examined in the larger context of a dangerous shift in Indian foreign policy that now seeks to subjugate the country's interests to the military, political and economic interests of the globe's largest and most predatory imperial power – the United States. The 123 Agreement constitutes the pivot in India's 'strategic partnership' with the US. The drift in policy from the earlier unequivocal non-aligned stance on global issues is typified by India's sudden volte-face at the IAEA, where it chose to support the position of the US on the Iran nuclear issue. In total disregard of the majority opinion in the Indian Parliament, the UPA Government wishes to proceed with the Nuclear Agreement without addressing key issues that have been raised against it. Significantly, the Left Parties, whose support is critical for the Government's survival, have asked the government not to proceed further with the 123 Agreement before addressing major concerns about the agreement. Clearly, there is a need to examine the claims made by the government vis-à-vis the nuclear 'deal'. Some of the major issues, include: -- The large gap between the assurances, previously given by the PM in the Parliament, and what has actually been accepted by the US. -- The Hyde Act, passed by the US Congress, and its implications for the 123 Agreement. While the Hyde Act ensures for the US that its domestic legislation holds through the actual implementation of the agreement, the Indian Government seeks to bypass Parliament and present the deal as a fait accompli. -- Aligning India with the strategic interests of the US, without even a semblance of a debate in the country regarding this significant shift in India's foreign policy. -- The attempt to tilt India's energy program towards high cost imported nuclear power plants neglecting other cheaper sources of energy including domestic nuclear plants In order to discuss the above, a convention is being organised on 10th September in Delhi. The details are as under: Date and Time: 10th September, 3.00 pm to 7.00 pm Venue: Mavlankar Hall, Rafi Marg, New Delhi Prominent speakers at the Convention include: Dr. Placid Rodriguez, former Director, Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR), Kalpakkam; AN Prasad, former Director, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Mumbai; Dr. AG Goplakrishnan, former Chairman, Atomic Energy Regulatory Board; Justice PB Sawant, former Judge, Supreme Court; Dr. AD Damodaran, formerly of Nuclear Fuels Complex, Professor Prabhat Patnaik, Jawaharlal Nehru University, Shri SP Shukla, Former Member, Planning Commission, and Shri M.K. Bhadrakumar, Former Ambassador Leading political leaders will also address the Convention, including: Shri Parkash Karat, Shri VP Singh, Shri AB Bardhan, Shri Ram Gopal Yadav, Shri Yerran Naidu, Shri Abani Roy and Shri Debabrata Biswas. We look forward to your participation in the above Convention, to contribute to its success and to the promotion of a much larger debate in the country around theses issues. With Greetings, Yours Sincerely, Sd/- Sd/- Sd/- MK Bhadrakumar Kamal Chenoy Prabir Purkayastha From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Fri Sep 7 05:35:14 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz In-Reply-To: <2536.25891.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <300212.71247.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Kshmendra, Faiz was a "dehria" communist,if you know what I mean.Iqbal was an Islamist.Being a poet and a philosopher is not contrary to being an Islamist.So,in that sense,there can be no greater contrast. Iqbal's philosophy of religious existentialism- mard-e-momin, khudi etc was based on Islam.I do not see the same celebration of "khudi" in Faiz. Also,Iqbal was not sufi either.Iqbal wrote a lot in Persian.Poetry in every language has a soul of its own.When you write in Persian,you cant but help poets like Hafez and Rumi whispering in your ear;and the mysticism rubs off on you.That can be found in Iqbal too.But,Iqbal's philosophy has nothing to do with sufism.In fact,my impression is that in his dialog Iblees o Jibrael, he is deriding sufis- "Main khataktaa hoon dile yazdaan mein kaante ki tarah, tu faqat, alla hoo alla hoo ,alla hoo." This IMO, is Nietzsche style existentialism. So,I really don't see much similarity in Faiz and Iqbal besides the fact that they were the greatest living Urdu poets of their times. regards Rahul --- Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Yasir > > Long overdue. Didnt want to let it go. > > Fleetingly addressing ".....they both received a > similar religious education while growing up in > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > sounds." > > For me there is not much of a contradiction. Both > were revolutionaries. Both had a "sufi" bent of > mind. Both seemed to celeberate "khudi". > > In my opinion the seeming contradiction might > arise out of a limited understanding of Iqbal. More > philosopher than "Islamist" (also more Philosopher > than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who primarily > stuck to the finest precepts from the "Quran" > (somewhat a Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not the work > of an ordinary soul subscribing to the "expected". > > In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on of > Jinnah) was more towards "a Nation for Muslims" > rather than an "Islamic (shariah) Nation". The 1940 > Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent Assembly > speech are just 2 pointers. > > I am sure I sound quite disjointed. Khair. > > Thanks for Maniza Naqvi's translation of "Hum > Daikhaingay". I thought the "anthem", the challenge, > the rousing up, the defiance is missing. > > Here is an interesting 'variation' by Raamesh > Gowri Raghavan. In his words: > > > Here is a transcreation based on Faiz A Faiz's > revolutionary Urdu nazm 'Hum dekhenge', and written > to the metre of another revolutionary song, the > Marseillaise. > > "Destiny" > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > The day we dreamed of has now come! > Oh! See the vile ziggurats crumble > Reduced to ignominous dust! > Reduced to ignominous dust! > Can you hear the revolution > Rumble in the angry streets > It thunders fire and lightning > To strike the oppressors' nemesis! > > Our destiny is come > The day given to us > Arise! Arise! > For the cast-iron pledge > Must now be redeemed! > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > The day we dreamed of has now come! > Look! From the temple of our faith > The evil is now exorcised! > The evil is now exorcised! > The good are now restored to their > High exaltations again! > See the generals' stars stripped away > And their thrones, their baubles destroyed! > > Our destiny is come > The day given to us > Arise! Arise! > For the cast-iron pledge > Must now be redeemed! > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > The day we dreamed of has now come! > Only His name shall prevail: > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > He Oversees, is the Overseen > His reign shall persist forever! > For He is I and He is You > He is I and He is You! > > Our destiny is come > The day given to us > Arise! Arise! > For the cast-iron pledge > Must now be redeemed! > > > The original by Faiz"- > > "Hum dekhenge > Lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhenge > Wo din ke jis ka wada hai > Jo looh-e-azl pe likha hai > Hum dekhenge > > Jab zulm-o-sitam ke koh-e-garan > Rooi ki tarah ud jayenge > Hum mehkoomon ke paaon tale > Ye dharti dhad dhad dhadakegi > Aur ahl-e-hukum ke sar oopar > Jab bijli kad kad kadakegi > Hum dekhenge > > Jab arz-e-Khuda ke kaabe se > Sab butth uthwae jayenge > Hum ahl-e-safa mardood-e-haram > Masnad pe bithaye jayenge > Sab taaj uchhaale jayenge > Sab takht giraaye jayenge > Hum dekhenge > > Bas naam rahega Allah ka > Jo ghayab bhi hai hazir bhi > Jo naazir bhi hai manzar bhi > Uthega an-al-Haq ka nara > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > Aur raaj karegi Khalq-e-Khuda > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > Hum dekhenge > Lazim hai ki hum bhi dekhenge > Hum dekhenge" > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > yasir ~ wrote: > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that > both sides (or as > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and > Muhammad Iqbal - > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri quoting > Meray Dil Meray > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an > unimportant note that > they both received a similar religious education > while growing up in > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > sounds. > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum > Dekhenge. it becoming an > anthem during the zia years. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > _________________________________________ > > > --------------------------------- > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you > sell. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From monica at sarai.net Fri Sep 7 11:50:44 2007 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:50:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house In-Reply-To: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Vedavati, If you have disabled receiving mails, then it does not mean that your mails are being blocked by anyone except yourself for yourself. Mots du jour like banned are easy to bandy but utterly pointless if untrue. Useful however for creating an atmosphere of allegations and defensiveness. Perhaps that was the intention? This is an administered - NOT moderated - list. As everyone by now knows, to their edification (or boredom). best M Monica Narula Raqs Sarai-CSDS 29 Rajpur Road Delhi 110 054 www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net On 06-Sep-07, at 10:09 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear VJ > > I do not know what the glitch was if any, but this last mail of > yours has come through SARAI. > > Your address in Subscribers List continues to show in parentheses > which means your list delivery is disabled. > > KK > > Vedavati Jogi wrote: > .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage > { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } yes, kshemendra, my > mails are being blocked by sarai and i am not surprised because > this is the real nature of secularism practiced in india. > > this secularism will lead to disaster i am sure. > > few decades back britishers encouraged muslim separatism which > ultimately resulted into partition. today same great job is being > done by psudosecularists and i will not be surprised if one day > muslims again start giving same slogan 'islam khatareme hai' > leading the nation to many more partitions. > > 'gujrat' is a 'shame' but 'kashmir' is not! > when one babri was pulled down then so many riots (initiated by > muslims) took place more over their acts were justified by > psudosecularists > but many temples were pulled down in kashmir ...spineless hindus > did not feel bad and ofcourse psudo secularists kept their mouths > shut. > > list is very big. this is secularism. if you feel what i have > written is not wrong please distribute it. > > thanks > vj > > > > --------------------------------- > From: vrjogi at hotmail.com > To: tapasrayx at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house > Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:21:04 +0000 > > .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding: > 0px;} .ExternalClass EC_body.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font- > family:Tahoma;} no i am not suffering from any mental problem, i > only tell the truth which psudo secularists can not digest. > > vedavati > > >> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:02:38 +0530 >> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com >> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com >>> >> Please do not forward anything to me in future. I do not >> appreciate it. >> >> For your information, I have already received from Reader-list the >> mail >> you claim was blocked and have forwarded to me offlist. >> >> I suspect you may be suffering from some type of delusion or >> paranoia. >> >> TR >> >> >> Vedavati Jogi wrote: >>> i have no alternative but to forward this mail to all of you >>> individually as readers list people don't dare to publish my mail. >>> i request all of you to please read this correspondance. views >>> expressed >>> by people like roger are posing real threat to this country' unity. >>> >>> vedavati >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> From: vrjogi at hotmail.com >>> To: rgdj12 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net >>> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house >>> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:55:48 +0000 >>> >>> pakistan is an enemy so i don't blame them as they are doing what an >>> enemy is supposed to do. i am talking against psudoseculars like >>> you. nobody has blocked minority advancement in india otherwise >>> shahruhk, irfan pathan, zakir hussin, javed akhtar would not have >>> > > > > --------------------------------- > Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click > here! > > --------------------------------- > Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click > here! > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone > who knows. > Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 7 12:15:13 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 23:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] *****India should claim IPR over 0 and Indians have every right to do and regain its assets******* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear readers of Sarai, Whatever vedavati expressed is very much true and it is very unfortunate. United India or Indian sub-continent(Pakistan,India,Tibet,Nepal,Bangladesh,Burma,Srilanka) to India suffered a lot. Particularly down the line past 1000 years Country suffered a lot, wealth looted, people converted forcibly or voluntarily. Culture and heritage sabotaged. In the above list SRILANKA,NEPAL and TIBET are among the list of ASTADASHA(18) shakti peethas and ATMA LINGAS(SHIV LING) which are considered to be very sacred to HINDUS. But the KARMA BHOOMI(India) tolerated all the atrocities never tried to invade any land anytime. Besides the carnage the country is divided but never fall down and continuing its journey with time and will continue to do so. Rather the country produced many fruits to the world to enjoy the benefits. Among them are 0. With out which nothing will run including this mail in current world. But we Indians never claimed patents and IPR over 0?. From Alexander to Britishers every body attacked the Nation, looted and wreck-aged. Some with weapons some with divide and rule policy, polluted the minds of people,blood and jeans as well. Rulers like GHORI,GHAJANI,AURANGZEB,ZINNA are a few to mention among them and the Nation,the history will never either forget or excuse them. I hope every body aware about the history. I read some mail day before from a member named junaid mohammad stating >>Talking of ‘Hindus’ spreading Buddhist ideas, it seems quite odd. >>(I should quickly mention the ‘Muslim’ Darashikoh who translated a >> multitude of Sanskrit manuscripts into Persian, which was later carried >>into Europe). If they were spreading these Buddhist ideas, did they not >>follow Buddhism themselves? Were they Hindus even after converting to >>Buddhism? Hindutva vadis will say Buddhism and Hindusim are one, but do >> the Buddhists too think so? Many Hindus converted to Buddhism, so did >> many Hindus and Buddhists later convert to Islam. Why is it difficult >>for some Pandits to accept that most Kashmiris became Muslims, and not >>live in a self-deceptive bubble that only Hindus are the original >>residents of Kashmir? How does acceptance of Islam make Kashmiris outsiders? >>Is the talk of ‘we’ and ‘they’ valid? Can today’s Kashmiri >> Pandit claim Kashmir’s ancient history more than a Kashmiri Muslim? Can >>he disown Kashmir’s medieval history as not his own? >>Mohamad Junaid 1)If we question why do all the above mentioned idiotic people do the things against Indian sub-continent then what is the response from the world??? 2)What is the Pakistan role in freedom fight??? 3)Is there any single patriot like bhagat singh,subash chandra bose who scarified their lives for the freedom struggle, from Pakistanti side? 4)While India built towers and buildings in the name of zinna, Why did zinna ask for partition except to satisfy his ego and superiority and selfishness? 5)Why Pakistan is so much crying on Kashmir besides it defeated utterly 4 times by India? 6)After gaining the 3/4 enrich land Through partition, Why did Pakistan Occupied kashmir illegally? Gave away piece of land to China? What the world is doing blody hell? 7)What is China interest in Aksai chin and Tibet? Why did they occupied and posse-sing MANAS SAROVAR? Are they happy to do like this because We Indian offered piece of thought(Buddism) to them or by looking at Shri Nehru do they thought that nothing will happen or no body will either question or do anything in future if they occupy and do whatever they want? 8)what the so called nations and world is doing except murmuring? 9)Did they achieve anything except wreckage name in the history?Does the ALMIGHTY asked them to do so? You all must understand that JAMMU AND KASHMIR (including pok,and the parts in china possession) is PART AND PARCEL OF INDIA. Its our Head. It is very clear that ISLAM rulers and Britishers(leave few exceptions) raided,looted and spoiled thoughts,people,wealth,land. The carnage is still happening like jihadi attacks? So the World and those who all are generating wrong thoughts,writing wrong scripts and shouting slogans should better keep quiet and watch. The fact is that Islam is migration to INDIA and the people(majority or minority) living in PAKISTAN,BANGLADESH,INDIA are just immigrants. Those who are all don't know history and didn't finish schooling should better go and try to grab the knowledge first and then do anything. If they have anything worthy like we(Indians) did they better try out and help the world. We Indians have every right to do? Dharma will win and truth will prevail always. I dont mind if I will be blocked in sarai like vedavati. Thanx and Regards, Dhatri. Vedavati Jogi wrote: yes, kshemendra, my mails are being blocked by sarai and i am not surprised because this is the real nature of secularism practiced in india. this secularism will lead to disaster i am sure. few decades back britishers encouraged muslim separatism which ultimately resulted into partition. today same great job is being done by psudosecularists and i will not be surprised if one day muslims again start giving same slogan 'islam khatareme hai' leading the nation to many more partitions. 'gujrat' is a 'shame' but 'kashmir' is not! when one babri was pulled down then so many riots (initiated by muslims) took place more over their acts were justified by psudosecularists but many temples were pulled down in kashmir ...spineless hindus did not feel bad and ofcourse psudo secularists kept their mouths shut. list is very big. this is secularism. if you feel what i have written is not wrong please distribute it. thanks vj From: vrjogi at hotmail.comTo: tapasrayx at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.netSubject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's houseDate: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:21:04 +0000 no i am not suffering from any mental problem, i only tell the truth which psudo secularists can not digest. vedavati > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:02:38 +0530> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > Please do not forward anything to me in future. I do not appreciate it.> > For your information, I have already received from Reader-list the mail > you claim was blocked and have forwarded to me offlist.> > I suspect you may be suffering from some type of delusion or paranoia.> > TR> > > Vedavati Jogi wrote:> > i have no alternative but to forward this mail to all of you > > individually as readers list people don't dare to publish my mail.> > i request all of you to please read this correspondance. views expressed > > by people like roger are posing real threat to this country' unity.> > > > vedavati> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > From: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > To: rgdj12 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house> > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:55:48 +0000> > > > pakistan is an enemy so i don't blame them as they are doing what an> > enemy is supposed to do. i am talking against psudoseculars like> > you. nobody has blocked minority advancement in india otherwise> > shahruhk, irfan pathan, zakir hussin, javed akhtar would not have Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here! _________________________________________________________________ Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! http://get.live.com/en-ie/messenger/overview _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 7 12:38:03 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 00:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] *****India should claim IPR over 0 and Indians have every right to do and regain its assets******* In-Reply-To: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <165184.64568.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi All, Towards this, its high time to reasses our(Indian) constitution and policies(national/iinternational) and amend, if possible rewrite them entirely to protect the assets, resources to regain/manage and maintain them for present for future for our best interests. Regards, Dhatri. we wi wrote: Dear readers of Sarai, Whatever vedavati expressed is very much true and it is very unfortunate. United India or Indian sub-continent(Pakistan,India,Tibet,Nepal,Bangladesh,Burma,Srilanka) to India suffered a lot. Particularly down the line past 1000 years Country suffered a lot, wealth looted, people converted forcibly or voluntarily. Culture and heritage sabotaged. In the above list SRILANKA,NEPAL and TIBET are among the list of ASTADASHA(18) shakti peethas and ATMA LINGAS(SHIV LING) which are considered to be very sacred to HINDUS. But the KARMA BHOOMI(India) tolerated all the atrocities never tried to invade any land anytime. Besides the carnage the country is divided but never fall down and continuing its journey with time and will continue to do so. Rather the country produced many fruits to the world to enjoy the benefits. Among them are 0. With out which nothing will run including this mail in current world. But we Indians never claimed patents and IPR over 0?. >From Alexander to Britishers every body attacked the Nation, looted and wreck-aged. Some with weapons some with divide and rule policy, polluted the minds of people,blood and jeans as well. Rulers like GHORI,GHAJANI,AURANGZEB,ZINNA are a few to mention among them and the Nation,the history will never either forget or excuse them. I hope every body aware about the history. I read some mail day before from a member named junaid mohammad stating >>Talking of ‘Hindus’ spreading Buddhist ideas, it seems quite odd. >>(I should quickly mention the ‘Muslim’ Darashikoh who translated a >> multitude of Sanskrit manuscripts into Persian, which was later carried >>into Europe). If they were spreading these Buddhist ideas, did they not >>follow Buddhism themselves? Were they Hindus even after converting to >>Buddhism? Hindutva vadis will say Buddhism and Hindusim are one, but do >> the Buddhists too think so? Many Hindus converted to Buddhism, so did >> many Hindus and Buddhists later convert to Islam. Why is it difficult >>for some Pandits to accept that most Kashmiris became Muslims, and not >>live in a self-deceptive bubble that only Hindus are the original >>residents of Kashmir? How does acceptance of Islam make Kashmiris outsiders? >>Is the talk of ‘we’ and ‘they’ valid? Can today’s Kashmiri >> Pandit claim Kashmir’s ancient history more than a Kashmiri Muslim? Can >>he disown Kashmir’s medieval history as not his own? >>Mohamad Junaid 1)If we question why do all the above mentioned idiotic people do the things against Indian sub-continent then what is the response from the world??? 2)What is the Pakistan role in freedom fight??? 3)Is there any single patriot like bhagat singh,subash chandra bose who scarified their lives for the freedom struggle, from Pakistanti side? 4)While India built towers and buildings in the name of zinna, Why did zinna ask for partition except to satisfy his ego and superiority and selfishness? 5)Why Pakistan is so much crying on Kashmir besides it defeated utterly 4 times by India? 6)After gaining the 3/4 enrich land Through partition, Why did Pakistan Occupied kashmir illegally? Gave away piece of land to China? What the world is doing blody hell? 7)What is China interest in Aksai chin and Tibet? Why did they occupied and posse-sing MANAS SAROVAR? Are they happy to do like this because We Indian offered piece of thought(Buddism) to them or by looking at Shri Nehru do they thought that nothing will happen or no body will either question or do anything in future if they occupy and do whatever they want? 8)what the so called nations and world is doing except murmuring? 9)Did they achieve anything except wreckage name in the history?Does the ALMIGHTY asked them to do so? You all must understand that JAMMU AND KASHMIR (including pok,and the parts in china possession) is PART AND PARCEL OF INDIA. Its our Head. It is very clear that ISLAM rulers and Britishers(leave few exceptions) raided,looted and spoiled thoughts,people,wealth,land. The carnage is still happening like jihadi attacks? So the World and those who all are generating wrong thoughts,writing wrong scripts and shouting slogans should better keep quiet and watch. The fact is that Islam is migration to INDIA and the people(majority or minority) living in PAKISTAN,BANGLADESH,INDIA are just immigrants. Those who are all don't know history and didn't finish schooling should better go and try to grab the knowledge first and then do anything. If they have anything worthy like we(Indians) did they better try out and help the world. We Indians have every right to do? Dharma will win and truth will prevail always. I dont mind if I will be blocked in sarai like vedavati. Thanx and Regards, Dhatri. Vedavati Jogi wrote: yes, kshemendra, my mails are being blocked by sarai and i am not surprised because this is the real nature of secularism practiced in india. this secularism will lead to disaster i am sure. few decades back britishers encouraged muslim separatism which ultimately resulted into partition. today same great job is being done by psudosecularists and i will not be surprised if one day muslims again start giving same slogan 'islam khatareme hai' leading the nation to many more partitions. 'gujrat' is a 'shame' but 'kashmir' is not! when one babri was pulled down then so many riots (initiated by muslims) took place more over their acts were justified by psudosecularists but many temples were pulled down in kashmir ...spineless hindus did not feel bad and ofcourse psudo secularists kept their mouths shut. list is very big. this is secularism. if you feel what i have written is not wrong please distribute it. thanks vj From: vrjogi at hotmail.comTo: tapasrayx at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.netSubject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's houseDate: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:21:04 +0000 no i am not suffering from any mental problem, i only tell the truth which psudo secularists can not digest. vedavati > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:02:38 +0530> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > Please do not forward anything to me in future. I do not appreciate it.> > For your information, I have already received from Reader-list the mail > you claim was blocked and have forwarded to me offlist.> > I suspect you may be suffering from some type of delusion or paranoia.> > TR> > > Vedavati Jogi wrote:> > i have no alternative but to forward this mail to all of you > > individually as readers list people don't dare to publish my mail.> > i request all of you to please read this correspondance. views expressed > > by people like roger are posing real threat to this country' unity.> > > > vedavati> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > From: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > To: rgdj12 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house> > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:55:48 +0000> > > > pakistan is an enemy so i don't blame them as they are doing what an> > enemy is supposed to do. i am talking against psudoseculars like> > you. nobody has blocked minority advancement in india otherwise> > shahruhk, irfan pathan, zakir hussin, javed akhtar would not have Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here! _________________________________________________________________ Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! http://get.live.com/en-ie/messenger/overview _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Sep 7 12:41:05 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:41:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tehelka is now a magazine. Message-ID: <9c06aab30709070011g5ca4e6fbk6b8babccd32c87b6@mail.gmail.com> Tehelka is now a magazine. See www.tehelka.com. Do pick it up this weekend. Send your responses to feedback at tehelka.com Subscribe here: http://www.tehelka.com/Subscribe/index.asp Or sms Tehelka to 3636 to subscribe o o o o o New Ship, Same Course By Tarun J Tejpal Editor-in-Chief http://www.tehelka.com/magazine/ There is a rumour doing the rounds that the magazine is dying. Some say it is being spread by those who've killed a few in their time. Others say it is the handiwork of those whose attention spans do not extend beyond quicksilver television images and glossies of listings. The wise would say there may well be some truth in it. After all, many good things are reported to be dying: animals, plants, newspapers, decency, poetry, liberalism, classical music, romantic love, frugal ways. The question then to ask may be: are they, like the tiger, dying because of external pressures, or is it because they are second-rate and deserve to perish? In other words, is it worth fighting to keep them alive? TEHELKA was born under the sign of Mars, and working the mercantile till has never been its forte. For some years now, it has fought to create and expand the space for aggressive public interest journalism in India, and has won many crucial battles even as it has taken some crippling blows. Despite a continual resource crunch, the TEHELKA weekly paper has stayed the course on its mandate of a journalism that marries a high quality of analysis and writing, a strong sense of social agency, and hard-nosed investigations into the abuse of public money, public power and human rights. A dissonance had appeared. Tehelka's journalism demanded shelf value and multiple readers; the tabloid format offered neither Some of the most important exposés of the last few years have been the work of TEHELKA reporters, and many of these stories have been broken on national networks such as Aaj Tak and Star News. These include pathbreaking investigations into the Jessica Lall murder case, the buying of key Best Bakery massacre witness Zaheera Sheikh, foreign paedophiles in Goa, the ambushing of witnesses of the 1984 anti-Sikh riots, the child murders in Nithari, the scandal of Dera Sacha Sauda, the hand of Uttar Pradesh's politicians in the opium trade, the fixing of the Sanjay Dutt trial, the medical racket at the Agra asylum and in the nursing homes of Delhi, the siphoning off by officials of foodgrains meant for the poor, and many others. Apart from the pride of doing these stories, there has been the satisfaction of having been a catalyst in the revival of hard, questioning, adversarial reporting, including some excellent sting exposés. In the area of social agency, TEHELKA has taken up several key crusades, including the cases of Bant Singh, a revolutionary Dalit singer whose limbs were butchered by upper-caste Sikh landlords; Irom Sharmila, the redoubtable young woman on a protest fast for the last seven years demanding the repealing of the draconian Armed Forces Special Powers Act in the Northeast; and the gang rape and killing of a Dalit family in Kherlanji. Every week, without exception, the paper has made prominent space for Dalit issues, farmer struggles, and other voices emanating from the grassroots — in an attempt to take the concerns of those who will never read our paper to those who ought to read about them. As for opening its pages up to opinions and ideas of all shades, that has always been TEHELKA's credo: a completely liberal ethos, resolutely opposed to bigotry and sectarianism. Free, fair and fearless is what we tagged ourselves — we hope this has been in evidence over the weeks and years. When we set out to create the TEHELKA weekly — against all odds, amid the debris of a bruising battle — we chose the format of a tabloid. We felt TEHELKA's brand of proactive journalism would not fit well into the affectations of a magazine. The paper's success appeared to suggest we were right, but this was only partly true. An avalanche of reader feedback was also telling us that a kind of dissonance had appeared between the material and its vehicle. TEHELKA's long journalism demanded both shelf value and multiple readers; the tabloid format offered neither. Even so it took us a long time to convince ourselves that we needed to find the shape of a magazine, and that only happened when we discovered a look that was not only different from all other weeklies but also capable of retaining our DNA unchanged. Like everything else in the world, the newsmagazine has its limitations, but we'll work hard to push its possibilities just the way we have endeavoured with our other avatars. Despite the obit writers, the magazine deserves to survive — it is the crucial pause between the impressionism of the daily paper and news channel, and the long vista of the book. It is the first major sieving of the trash of the world and, if done with imagination and courage, can have immense value. The credit for steering this latest transition, as always, goes to TEHELKA's outstanding editors and designers — Anand Naorem and Uzma Mohsin first among them. We hope the new format will showcase fresh virtues while amplifying the old. We hope, consistent with our marketing promise, our readers will find us tighter, brighter, tougher. From chiarapassa at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 13:00:40 2007 From: chiarapassa at gmail.com (Chiara Passa) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:30:40 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Paraflows '07- UN SPACE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (Apologies for cross posting) Paraflows '07 - annual convention for digital arts and cultures. The second annual paraflows festival for digital art and cultures establishes in Vienna a new festival tradition. As an annual fixture between the Ars Elektronica and the Steirischer Herbst, paraflows functions both as a platform for the young local net art and net culture scene and as an interface to the more famous domestic and international positions within media art. UN_SPACE is the title of this year's paraflows festival – taking place for the second time already. The topic is the exploration of inaccessible, invisible, theoretical, and immaterial spaces. Download here the full program http://www.paraflows.at/index.php?id=67&L=1 Thanks and regards, -- Chiara Passa chiarapassa at gmail.com http://www.chiarapassa.it http://www.ideasonair.net http://twitter.com/jogador From geert at desk.nl Fri Sep 7 13:22:00 2007 From: geert at desk.nl (geert lovink) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:52:00 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Pedagogical Faultlines--Workshop on Alternatives in Education (Amsterdam, September 21/22) Message-ID: Pedagogical Faultlines International Workshop on Alternatives in Education September 21 & 22, 2007, Amsterdam Location: Pakhuis de Zwijger Workshop organized by Waag Society (Amsterdam), Sarai (Delhi) and the Institute of Network Cultures (Amsterdam). URL: http://www.waag.org/project/faultlines (Dutch and English version available) Program: http://extern.waag.org/faultlines/ Please register by sending an email to Lipika: lipika at waag.org (tel. ++ 31 20 5579898). FRIDAY 21 SEPTEMBER 2007 9:30 – 10:00 Doors Open, Coffee/Tea 10:00 – 10:30 Opening Remarks Frank Kresin, Waag Society (NL) Geert Lovink, Institute of Network Cultures (NL) 10:30-13:00 Lectures Non-Aligned Learning Florian Schneider, Kein.org (Germany) Paulo Freire meets Tactical Media Felipe Fonseca and Thiago Noveas, MetaReciclagem (Brasil) The Blackmail of Lack Prabhat Kumar Jha , Ankur (India). 13:00-14:00 Lunch 14:00-15:00 Break-Out Sessions Room A: Authority of Knowledge? Hans Pronk en Michael van Wetering, Kennisnet (NL) Room B: Counter-Mapping Creative Industries in Hole in Beijing Ned Rossiter, OrgNets (GB) Room C: New technologies on the Internet for self-organising systems in e-learning Sugata Mitra, Hole in the Wall (India) & Jerneja Rebernak (NL) 15:15-16:15 Break-Out Sessions Room A: Laghu Riyaaz (Minor Practices) Shveta Sarda, Cybermohalla (India) Room B: Lifelong Competence Development Henk Sligte and Judith Schooneboom, Tencompetence (NL) Room C: Bringing statistics to life through an interactive world map Frank van Cappelle, IIEP/ Unesco (NL) 16:30 Closing Lecture Experiments in Legal Education Lawrence Liang, Alternative Law Forum (India) 17:30 End SATURDAY 22 SEPTEMBER 2007 10:30 – 13:00u Lectures Fill, Share, Preach, Teach, the Emergent World of Hindi Internet Ravikant Sharma, Sarai (India) CommonCitizen Radio José Balbino, Descentro (Brasil) Provisional Pedagogy, Provisional Practice Rupali Gupte, Collective Research Initiatives Trust (India) Location Based Playful Learning, Henk van Zeijst, Waag Society (NL) 13:00-14:00 Lunch 14:00-15:00 Break-Out Sessions Room A: Open knowledge and education at the new level of web paradigm Danica Radovanovic (Serbia), together with Thiago Noveas (Brazil) Room B: Sustainable Answers through Experiential Learning Emer Beamer, Butterfly Works (NL) Room C: Multiple Islam, Multiple Identities: a chain diary Evelyn Raat, Imagine IC (NL) 15:15-16:15 Break-Out Sessions Room A: Bank of Common Knowledge Olivier Schulbaum, Platoniq (Spain) Room B: Informal learning, school dropouts and the digital divide Jan Lepeltak, The Amsterdam Computer Clubhouse (NL) & Marja Verstelle, UrWay (NL) Room C: Education & Technology Wim Veen, TU Delft (NL) 16:30 Closing Remarks and Open Debate Additive or Alternative Awadhendra Sharan, Sarai (India) 17:30 End From sen.gargi at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 13:34:43 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:34:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] *****India should claim IPR over 0 and Indians have every right to do and regain its assets******* In-Reply-To: <165184.64568.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <165184.64568.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Dhatri and Vedvati, I see dears that i have to expand my list of ARKP to include the two of you too: VD. The other meaning of the juxtaposed letters though is unintended but perhaps 'divinely' ordained? Perhaps by the Indra of the Indrajal? Gargi Sen On 07/09/2007, we wi wrote: > > Hi All, > > Towards this, its high time to reasses our(Indian) constitution > and policies(national/iinternational) and amend, if possible rewrite them > entirely to protect the assets, > resources to regain/manage and maintain them for present for future for > our best interests. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > we wi wrote: > Dear readers of Sarai, > > Whatever vedavati expressed is very much true and it is very unfortunate. > United India or Indian > sub-continent(Pakistan,India,Tibet,Nepal,Bangladesh,Burma,Srilanka) to India > suffered a lot. Particularly down the line past 1000 years Country suffered > a lot, wealth looted, people converted forcibly or voluntarily. Culture and > heritage sabotaged. In the above list SRILANKA,NEPAL and TIBET are among the > list of ASTADASHA(18) shakti peethas and ATMA LINGAS(SHIV LING) which are > considered to be very sacred to HINDUS. But the KARMA BHOOMI(India) > tolerated all the atrocities never tried to invade any land anytime. > > Besides the carnage the country is divided but never fall down and > continuing its journey with time and will continue to do so. Rather the > country produced many fruits to the world to enjoy the benefits. Among them > are 0. With out which nothing will run including this mail in current world. > But we Indians never claimed patents and IPR over 0?. > > From Alexander to Britishers every body attacked the Nation, looted and > wreck-aged. Some with weapons some with divide and rule policy, polluted the > minds of people,blood and jeans as well. Rulers like > GHORI,GHAJANI,AURANGZEB,ZINNA are a few to mention among them and the > Nation,the history will never either forget or excuse them. I hope every > body aware about the history. I read some mail day before from a member > named junaid mohammad stating > > >>Talking of 'Hindus' spreading Buddhist ideas, it seems quite odd. > >>(I should quickly mention the 'Muslim' Darashikoh who translated a > >> multitude of Sanskrit manuscripts into Persian, which was later carried > >>into Europe). If they were spreading these Buddhist ideas, did they not > >>follow Buddhism themselves? Were they Hindus even after converting to > >>Buddhism? Hindutva vadis will say Buddhism and Hindusim are one, but do > >> the Buddhists too think so? Many Hindus converted to Buddhism, so did > >> many Hindus and Buddhists later convert to Islam. Why is it difficult > >>for some Pandits to accept that most Kashmiris became Muslims, and not > >>live in a self-deceptive bubble that only Hindus are the original > >>residents of Kashmir? How does acceptance of Islam make Kashmiris > outsiders? > >>Is the talk of 'we' and 'they' valid? Can today's Kashmiri > >> Pandit claim Kashmir's ancient history more than a Kashmiri Muslim? Can > >>he disown Kashmir's medieval history as not his own? > > >>Mohamad Junaid > > 1)If we question why do all the above mentioned idiotic people do the > things against Indian sub-continent then what is the response from the > world??? > > 2)What is the Pakistan role in freedom fight??? > > 3)Is there any single patriot like bhagat singh,subash chandra bose who > scarified their lives for the freedom struggle, from Pakistanti side? > > 4)While India built towers and buildings in the name of zinna, Why did > zinna ask for partition except to satisfy his ego and superiority and > selfishness? > > 5)Why Pakistan is so much crying on Kashmir besides it defeated utterly 4 > times by India? > > 6)After gaining the 3/4 enrich land Through partition, Why did Pakistan > Occupied kashmir illegally? Gave away piece of land to China? What the world > is doing blody hell? > > 7)What is China interest in Aksai chin and Tibet? Why did they occupied > and posse-sing MANAS SAROVAR? Are they happy to do like this because We > Indian offered piece of thought(Buddism) to them or by looking at Shri Nehru > do they thought that nothing will happen or no body will either question or > do anything in future if they occupy and do whatever they want? > > 8)what the so called nations and world is doing except murmuring? > > 9)Did they achieve anything except wreckage name in the history?Does the > ALMIGHTY asked them to do so? > > You all must understand that JAMMU AND KASHMIR (including pok,and the > parts in china possession) is PART AND PARCEL OF INDIA. Its our Head. It is > very clear that ISLAM rulers and Britishers(leave few exceptions) > raided,looted and spoiled thoughts,people,wealth,land. The carnage is still > happening like jihadi attacks? So the World and those who all are generating > wrong thoughts,writing wrong scripts and shouting slogans should better keep > quiet and watch. The fact is that Islam is migration to INDIA and the > people(majority or minority) living in PAKISTAN,BANGLADESH,INDIA are just > immigrants. Those who are all don't know history and didn't finish schooling > should better go and try to grab the knowledge first and then do anything. > If they have anything worthy like we(Indians) did they better try out and > help the world. > We Indians have every right to do? Dharma will win and truth will prevail > always. I dont mind if I will be blocked in sarai like vedavati. > > Thanx and Regards, > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > > Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > yes, kshemendra, my mails are being blocked by sarai and i am not > surprised because this is the real nature of secularism practiced in india. > > this secularism will lead to disaster i am sure. > > few decades back britishers encouraged muslim separatism which ultimately > resulted into partition. today same great job is being done by > psudosecularists and i will not be surprised if one day muslims again start > giving same slogan 'islam khatareme hai' leading the nation to many more > partitions. > > 'gujrat' is a 'shame' but 'kashmir' is not! > when one babri was pulled down then so many riots (initiated by muslims) > took place more over their acts were justified by psudosecularists > but many temples were pulled down in kashmir ...spineless hindus did not > feel bad and ofcourse psudo secularists kept their mouths shut. > > list is very big. this is secularism. if you feel what i have written is > not wrong please distribute it. > > thanks > vj > > > From: vrjogi at hotmail.comTo: tapasrayx at gmail.com; > reader-list at sarai.netSubject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in > Vedavati's houseDate: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:21:04 +0000 > > > no i am not suffering from any mental problem, i only tell the truth which > psudo secularists can not digest. vedavati > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:02:38 > +0530> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > Please do > not forward anything to me in future. I do not appreciate it.> > For your > information, I have already received from Reader-list the mail > you claim > was blocked and have forwarded to me offlist.> > I suspect you may be > suffering from some type of delusion or paranoia.> > TR> > > Vedavati Jogi > wrote:> > i have no alternative but to forward this mail to all of you > > > individually as readers list people don't dare to publish my mail.> > i > request all of you to please read this correspondance. views expressed > > > by people like roger are posing real threat to this country' unity.> > > > > vedavati> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > From: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > To: rgdj12 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> > > Subject: > RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house> > Date: Sat, 25 Aug > 2007 04:55:48 +0000> > > > pakistan is an enemy so i don't blame them as > they are doing what an> > enemy is supposed to do. i am talking against > psudoseculars like> > you. nobody has blocked minority advancement in india > otherwise> > shahruhk, irfan pathan, zakir hussin, javed akhtar would not > have > > Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here! > _________________________________________________________________ > Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! > http://get.live.com/en-ie/messenger/overview > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web > links. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From ysikand at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 14:21:59 2007 From: ysikand at gmail.com (Yogi Sikand) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 03:51:59 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Re-Defining Minorities Message-ID: <48097acc0709070151k3957f93dsbc85bbe2e364cddd@mail.gmail.com> *Re-Defining Minorities* * * *Yoginder Sikand* Of late there has been much discussion in the media and political circles about how precisely to define religious minorities in the Indian context. The Hindutva lobby vociferously advocates that the very category should be scrapped, alleging that it promotes 'divisiveness' and undermines 'national unity'. This reflects its visceral hostility to minority rights and its monolithic, majoritarian understanding of Indian nationalism. Some recent judgments of the Supreme Courts and state high courts have also tended to give a very restrictive interpretation of the term 'minority' and of minority rights, and these, critics argue, have given further impetus to the Hindutva lobby's case. And now there is talk of the Government perhaps moving a Constitutional amendment in Parliament to do away with the notion of national-level minorities and replacing it with a definition that would specify minorities at the state level instead. On the face of it, this proposal might sound innocuous, but, as several minority spokesmen point out, it is a major assault on minority rights. Mujtaba Farooq of the Jamaat-e Islami Hind, a leading Indian Muslim organization, describes the possible amendment as a 'conspiracy', and adds that the fact that the draft of the Bill is still unavailable adds weight to his contention as the 'secrecy' which surrounds it would provide minority organizations little time to analyse, critique and protest against it. He argues that it may well be that the amendment would reflect and reinforce certain recent judgments of the Supreme Court that he says aim to restrict minority rights. Suleiman Seth, President of the Indian National League, echoes the same fears. He contends that sections of the judiciary, the media and the political class 'are out to do away with India's social, political and cultural diversity' and sees the proposed amendment as reflecting their agenda. He describes it as 'being against the spirit of the Indian Constitution' and as part of a larger process of dilution of minority rights that he says sections of the judiciary are involved in. Syed Shahabuddin, former MP and a leading Muslim politician, points out that in India no community is a majority throughout the country at every level of governance. Hence, he says, there is a need to define minorities and their rights at each level, including the panchayat, block, district, state and national levels, rather than defining them only at the state level, as the proposed amendment might do. If the amendment is passed, it would lead to a situation wherein Muslims in Kashmir, a Muslim majority state, would lose their minority rights and would not enjoy the privileges under Article 30 of the Indian Constitution regarding educational institutions. A Kashmiri Muslim would not be considered a member of a minority community when he or she seeks admission to a Muslim minority educational institution outside Kashmir. The same anomalous situation would prevail in the case of Christians in Christian-majority Nagaland and Sikhs in Sikh-majority Punjab, for instance. Dr. J.K.Jain, a Jain leader, also voices similar concerns. He argues, 'The affairs of the country are not being run as per the Preamble of the Constitution, which talks of social, political and economic justice'. 'We cannot implement even the first line of the Constitution, and at the same time there are moves to undermine minority rights through possible Constitutional amendments as this!', he explains. 'Minorities are being reduced to the status of beggars, living at the mercy of the state or the majority for their rights, which are increasingly sought to be curtailed. Every organ of the state is being pressed into service to insult and humiliate the minorities and deprive us of our rights', he insists. Says M.P.Raju, a senior advocate and leading Indian Christian legal scholar, 'Even if the amendment is not made, we still have to raise our voice against efforts to curtail minority rights by defining minorities at the state level, in the face of certain recent Supreme Court judgments that seek to redefine minorities in this way and to do away with the minority character of an institution if it does not have at least half of its seats filled by that particular minority. That would, for instance, mean that practically all Christian educational institutions in north India would at once cease to be considered as minority institutions as they have well below less than half Christian students'. He critiques these judgments, most notably in the T.M. Pai case, as reflecting a 'restrictive, rather than expansive, interpretation of minority rights'. He argues that if minorities were to henceforth be defined state-wise rather than at the national level, it would represent 'over-federalism' as well as a 'non-harmonious interpretation of the Indian Constitution', adding that minority rights need protection at both the state as well as national levels. Besides the ominous implications of the proposed Constitutional amendment for minority rights, it is the perceived arbitrary manner in which the Government is said to be going ahead with it that has raised the ire of human rights and minority rights activists. Surely, the draft of an amendment of such import must be first made public and publicly discussed and debated before it can go ahead. Yoginder Sikand works with the Centre for Jawaharlal Nehru Studies, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi From sen.gargi at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 15:13:08 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:13:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Fai In-Reply-To: <300212.71247.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <2536.25891.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <300212.71247.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear ARKP, Yeh kaisa dastan-e-tanhai hai yaron? Apke kahton me Rumi ko parhne ka ahsaas to hai lekin apke baton se Rumaniyat ki boo tak gayab? Apologies to the non-Hindustani speakers on the list as I am not capable of translating into English my own words without signifying, and thereby collapsing, the subtle but significant difference between say 'boo' and 'mehak' into smell. Gargi Sen On 07/09/2007, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Hi Kshmendra, > Faiz was a "dehria" communist,if you know what I > mean.Iqbal was an Islamist.Being a poet and a > philosopher is not contrary to being an Islamist.So,in > that sense,there can be no greater contrast. > Iqbal's philosophy of religious existentialism- > mard-e-momin, khudi etc was based on Islam.I do not > see the same celebration of "khudi" in Faiz. > Also,Iqbal was not sufi either.Iqbal wrote a lot in > Persian.Poetry in every language has a soul of its > own.When you write in Persian,you cant but help poets > like Hafez and Rumi whispering in your ear;and the > mysticism rubs off on you.That can be found in Iqbal > too.But,Iqbal's philosophy has nothing to do with > sufism.In fact,my impression is that in his dialog > Iblees o Jibrael, he is deriding sufis- > "Main khataktaa hoon dile yazdaan mein kaante ki > tarah, > tu faqat, alla hoo alla hoo ,alla hoo." > This IMO, is Nietzsche style existentialism. > > So,I really don't see much similarity in Faiz and > Iqbal besides the fact that they were the greatest > living Urdu poets of their times. > > regards > Rahul > > > --- Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Dear Yasir > > > > Long overdue. Didnt want to let it go. > > > > Fleetingly addressing ".....they both received a > > similar religious education while growing up in > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > sounds." > > > > For me there is not much of a contradiction. Both > > were revolutionaries. Both had a "sufi" bent of > > mind. Both seemed to celeberate "khudi". > > > > In my opinion the seeming contradiction might > > arise out of a limited understanding of Iqbal. More > > philosopher than "Islamist" (also more Philosopher > > than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who primarily > > stuck to the finest precepts from the "Quran" > > (somewhat a Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not the work > > of an ordinary soul subscribing to the "expected". > > > > In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on of > > Jinnah) was more towards "a Nation for Muslims" > > rather than an "Islamic (shariah) Nation". The 1940 > > Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent Assembly > > speech are just 2 pointers. > > > > I am sure I sound quite disjointed. Khair. > > > > Thanks for Maniza Naqvi's translation of "Hum > > Daikhaingay". I thought the "anthem", the challenge, > > the rousing up, the defiance is missing. > > > > Here is an interesting 'variation' by Raamesh > > Gowri Raghavan. In his words: > > > > > > Here is a transcreation based on Faiz A Faiz's > > revolutionary Urdu nazm 'Hum dekhenge', and written > > to the metre of another revolutionary song, the > > Marseillaise. > > > > "Destiny" > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > Oh! See the vile ziggurats crumble > > Reduced to ignominous dust! > > Reduced to ignominous dust! > > Can you hear the revolution > > Rumble in the angry streets > > It thunders fire and lightning > > To strike the oppressors' nemesis! > > > > Our destiny is come > > The day given to us > > Arise! Arise! > > For the cast-iron pledge > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > Look! From the temple of our faith > > The evil is now exorcised! > > The evil is now exorcised! > > The good are now restored to their > > High exaltations again! > > See the generals' stars stripped away > > And their thrones, their baubles destroyed! > > > > Our destiny is come > > The day given to us > > Arise! Arise! > > For the cast-iron pledge > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > Only His name shall prevail: > > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > > He Oversees, is the Overseen > > His reign shall persist forever! > > For He is I and He is You > > He is I and He is You! > > > > Our destiny is come > > The day given to us > > Arise! Arise! > > For the cast-iron pledge > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > The original by Faiz"- > > > > "Hum dekhenge > > Lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhenge > > Wo din ke jis ka wada hai > > Jo looh-e-azl pe likha hai > > Hum dekhenge > > > > Jab zulm-o-sitam ke koh-e-garan > > Rooi ki tarah ud jayenge > > Hum mehkoomon ke paaon tale > > Ye dharti dhad dhad dhadakegi > > Aur ahl-e-hukum ke sar oopar > > Jab bijli kad kad kadakegi > > Hum dekhenge > > > > Jab arz-e-Khuda ke kaabe se > > Sab butth uthwae jayenge > > Hum ahl-e-safa mardood-e-haram > > Masnad pe bithaye jayenge > > Sab taaj uchhaale jayenge > > Sab takht giraaye jayenge > > Hum dekhenge > > > > Bas naam rahega Allah ka > > Jo ghayab bhi hai hazir bhi > > Jo naazir bhi hai manzar bhi > > Uthega an-al-Haq ka nara > > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > Aur raaj karegi Khalq-e-Khuda > > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > > > > Hum dekhenge > > Lazim hai ki hum bhi dekhenge > > Hum dekhenge" > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > yasir ~ wrote: > > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that > > both sides (or as > > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and > > Muhammad Iqbal - > > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri quoting > > Meray Dil Meray > > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an > > unimportant note that > > they both received a similar religious education > > while growing up in > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > sounds. > > > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum > > Dekhenge. it becoming an > > anthem during the zia years. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you > > sell. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who > knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 15:43:00 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:43:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Fai In-Reply-To: References: <2536.25891.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <300212.71247.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709070313t6cba79a1t2baedf76443159d6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Gargi of Puedo Intellectual , woh suna chuke hain humein apna faisla, har sawal ka jawab sawal se dene wale kyon umeed karke udas karon khud ko, jhooti ass banaee kwabon mein rehne wale teri nasseb mein hai sirf sohrat-e-harf, nahi milenge lafzoon ko mehsoo karne wale woh laga gaye hain mujh par ilzam kya kya, rooz fareb, hamesha se ghaat karne wale koun koun se zakmon ko chupaoon main, itne gehre hain mere ghaw nahi chupne wale kya pyar karon ab to nafrat bhi nahi ati, youn loot gaye humko humse bewafaee karne wale bech deta hai zamana masihon ko 'Nazeer' rehbar he the Isa ko saleeb tak pohchane wale Hope you know the context in which the reply is sent ......and ofcourse this is not my couplet ,,,,, Pawan Durani On 9/7/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > > Dear ARKP, > > Yeh kaisa dastan-e-tanhai hai yaron? > Apke kahton me Rumi ko parhne ka ahsaas to hai lekin > apke baton se Rumaniyat ki boo tak gayab? > > > Apologies to the non-Hindustani speakers on the list as I am not capable > of > translating into English my own words without signifying, and thereby > collapsing, the subtle but significant difference between say 'boo' and > 'mehak' into smell. > > Gargi Sen > > On 07/09/2007, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > > Hi Kshmendra, > > Faiz was a "dehria" communist,if you know what I > > mean.Iqbal was an Islamist.Being a poet and a > > philosopher is not contrary to being an Islamist.So,in > > that sense,there can be no greater contrast. > > Iqbal's philosophy of religious existentialism- > > mard-e-momin, khudi etc was based on Islam.I do not > > see the same celebration of "khudi" in Faiz. > > Also,Iqbal was not sufi either.Iqbal wrote a lot in > > Persian.Poetry in every language has a soul of its > > own.When you write in Persian,you cant but help poets > > like Hafez and Rumi whispering in your ear;and the > > mysticism rubs off on you.That can be found in Iqbal > > too.But,Iqbal's philosophy has nothing to do with > > sufism.In fact,my impression is that in his dialog > > Iblees o Jibrael, he is deriding sufis- > > "Main khataktaa hoon dile yazdaan mein kaante ki > > tarah, > > tu faqat, alla hoo alla hoo ,alla hoo." > > This IMO, is Nietzsche style existentialism. > > > > So,I really don't see much similarity in Faiz and > > Iqbal besides the fact that they were the greatest > > living Urdu poets of their times. > > > > regards > > Rahul > > > > > > --- Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > Dear Yasir > > > > > > Long overdue. Didnt want to let it go. > > > > > > Fleetingly addressing ".....they both received a > > > similar religious education while growing up in > > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > > sounds." > > > > > > For me there is not much of a contradiction. Both > > > were revolutionaries. Both had a "sufi" bent of > > > mind. Both seemed to celeberate "khudi". > > > > > > In my opinion the seeming contradiction might > > > arise out of a limited understanding of Iqbal. More > > > philosopher than "Islamist" (also more Philosopher > > > than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who primarily > > > stuck to the finest precepts from the "Quran" > > > (somewhat a Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not the work > > > of an ordinary soul subscribing to the "expected". > > > > > > In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on of > > > Jinnah) was more towards "a Nation for Muslims" > > > rather than an "Islamic (shariah) Nation". The 1940 > > > Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent Assembly > > > speech are just 2 pointers. > > > > > > I am sure I sound quite disjointed. Khair. > > > > > > Thanks for Maniza Naqvi's translation of "Hum > > > Daikhaingay". I thought the "anthem", the challenge, > > > the rousing up, the defiance is missing. > > > > > > Here is an interesting 'variation' by Raamesh > > > Gowri Raghavan. In his words: > > > > > > > > > Here is a transcreation based on Faiz A Faiz's > > > revolutionary Urdu nazm 'Hum dekhenge', and written > > > to the metre of another revolutionary song, the > > > Marseillaise. > > > > > > "Destiny" > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > Oh! See the vile ziggurats crumble > > > Reduced to ignominous dust! > > > Reduced to ignominous dust! > > > Can you hear the revolution > > > Rumble in the angry streets > > > It thunders fire and lightning > > > To strike the oppressors' nemesis! > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > The day given to us > > > Arise! Arise! > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > Look! From the temple of our faith > > > The evil is now exorcised! > > > The evil is now exorcised! > > > The good are now restored to their > > > High exaltations again! > > > See the generals' stars stripped away > > > And their thrones, their baubles destroyed! > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > The day given to us > > > Arise! Arise! > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > Only His name shall prevail: > > > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > > > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > > > He Oversees, is the Overseen > > > His reign shall persist forever! > > > For He is I and He is You > > > He is I and He is You! > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > The day given to us > > > Arise! Arise! > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > > > > The original by Faiz"- > > > > > > "Hum dekhenge > > > Lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhenge > > > Wo din ke jis ka wada hai > > > Jo looh-e-azl pe likha hai > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > Jab zulm-o-sitam ke koh-e-garan > > > Rooi ki tarah ud jayenge > > > Hum mehkoomon ke paaon tale > > > Ye dharti dhad dhad dhadakegi > > > Aur ahl-e-hukum ke sar oopar > > > Jab bijli kad kad kadakegi > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > Jab arz-e-Khuda ke kaabe se > > > Sab butth uthwae jayenge > > > Hum ahl-e-safa mardood-e-haram > > > Masnad pe bithaye jayenge > > > Sab taaj uchhaale jayenge > > > Sab takht giraaye jayenge > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > Bas naam rahega Allah ka > > > Jo ghayab bhi hai hazir bhi > > > Jo naazir bhi hai manzar bhi > > > Uthega an-al-Haq ka nara > > > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > Aur raaj karegi Khalq-e-Khuda > > > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > > > > > > > Hum dekhenge > > > Lazim hai ki hum bhi dekhenge > > > Hum dekhenge" > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > yasir ~ wrote: > > > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that > > > both sides (or as > > > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and > > > Muhammad Iqbal - > > > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri quoting > > > Meray Dil Meray > > > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > > > > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an > > > unimportant note that > > > they both received a similar religious education > > > while growing up in > > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > > sounds. > > > > > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum > > > Dekhenge. it becoming an > > > anthem during the zia years. > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you > > > sell. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > > subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who > > knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rashneek at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 15:57:07 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:57:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Fai In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709070313t6cba79a1t2baedf76443159d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2536.25891.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <300212.71247.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70709070313t6cba79a1t2baedf76443159d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120709070327l6c7b6d78gadc5995773bb2b31@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, It is pointless to reply to such people...only answer to them is But humko kahee kaafir Allah ki marzi hai On 9/7/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Gargi of Puedo Intellectual , > > > woh suna chuke hain humein apna faisla, > har sawal ka jawab sawal se dene wale > > kyon umeed karke udas karon khud ko, > jhooti ass banaee kwabon mein rehne wale > > teri nasseb mein hai sirf sohrat-e-harf, > nahi milenge lafzoon ko mehsoo karne wale > > woh laga gaye hain mujh par ilzam kya kya, > rooz fareb, hamesha se ghaat karne wale > > koun koun se zakmon ko chupaoon main, > itne gehre hain mere ghaw nahi chupne wale > > kya pyar karon ab to nafrat bhi nahi ati, > youn loot gaye humko humse bewafaee karne wale > > bech deta hai zamana masihon ko 'Nazeer' > rehbar he the Isa ko saleeb tak pohchane wale > > > > Hope you know the context in which the reply is sent ......and ofcourse > this > is not my couplet ,,,,, > > Pawan Durani > > > > On 9/7/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > > > > Dear ARKP, > > > > Yeh kaisa dastan-e-tanhai hai yaron? > > Apke kahton me Rumi ko parhne ka ahsaas to hai lekin > > apke baton se Rumaniyat ki boo tak gayab? > > > > > > Apologies to the non-Hindustani speakers on the list as I am not capable > > of > > translating into English my own words without signifying, and thereby > > collapsing, the subtle but significant difference between say 'boo' and > > 'mehak' into smell. > > > > Gargi Sen > > > > On 07/09/2007, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > > > > Hi Kshmendra, > > > Faiz was a "dehria" communist,if you know what I > > > mean.Iqbal was an Islamist.Being a poet and a > > > philosopher is not contrary to being an Islamist.So,in > > > that sense,there can be no greater contrast. > > > Iqbal's philosophy of religious existentialism- > > > mard-e-momin, khudi etc was based on Islam.I do not > > > see the same celebration of "khudi" in Faiz. > > > Also,Iqbal was not sufi either.Iqbal wrote a lot in > > > Persian.Poetry in every language has a soul of its > > > own.When you write in Persian,you cant but help poets > > > like Hafez and Rumi whispering in your ear;and the > > > mysticism rubs off on you.That can be found in Iqbal > > > too.But,Iqbal's philosophy has nothing to do with > > > sufism.In fact,my impression is that in his dialog > > > Iblees o Jibrael, he is deriding sufis- > > > "Main khataktaa hoon dile yazdaan mein kaante ki > > > tarah, > > > tu faqat, alla hoo alla hoo ,alla hoo." > > > This IMO, is Nietzsche style existentialism. > > > > > > So,I really don't see much similarity in Faiz and > > > Iqbal besides the fact that they were the greatest > > > living Urdu poets of their times. > > > > > > regards > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > --- Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Yasir > > > > > > > > Long overdue. Didnt want to let it go. > > > > > > > > Fleetingly addressing ".....they both received a > > > > similar religious education while growing up in > > > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > > > sounds." > > > > > > > > For me there is not much of a contradiction. Both > > > > were revolutionaries. Both had a "sufi" bent of > > > > mind. Both seemed to celeberate "khudi". > > > > > > > > In my opinion the seeming contradiction might > > > > arise out of a limited understanding of Iqbal. More > > > > philosopher than "Islamist" (also more Philosopher > > > > than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who primarily > > > > stuck to the finest precepts from the "Quran" > > > > (somewhat a Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not the work > > > > of an ordinary soul subscribing to the "expected". > > > > > > > > In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on of > > > > Jinnah) was more towards "a Nation for Muslims" > > > > rather than an "Islamic (shariah) Nation". The 1940 > > > > Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent Assembly > > > > speech are just 2 pointers. > > > > > > > > I am sure I sound quite disjointed. Khair. > > > > > > > > Thanks for Maniza Naqvi's translation of "Hum > > > > Daikhaingay". I thought the "anthem", the challenge, > > > > the rousing up, the defiance is missing. > > > > > > > > Here is an interesting 'variation' by Raamesh > > > > Gowri Raghavan. In his words: > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a transcreation based on Faiz A Faiz's > > > > revolutionary Urdu nazm 'Hum dekhenge', and written > > > > to the metre of another revolutionary song, the > > > > Marseillaise. > > > > > > > > "Destiny" > > > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > > Oh! See the vile ziggurats crumble > > > > Reduced to ignominous dust! > > > > Reduced to ignominous dust! > > > > Can you hear the revolution > > > > Rumble in the angry streets > > > > It thunders fire and lightning > > > > To strike the oppressors' nemesis! > > > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > > The day given to us > > > > Arise! Arise! > > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > > Look! From the temple of our faith > > > > The evil is now exorcised! > > > > The evil is now exorcised! > > > > The good are now restored to their > > > > High exaltations again! > > > > See the generals' stars stripped away > > > > And their thrones, their baubles destroyed! > > > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > > The day given to us > > > > Arise! Arise! > > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > > Only His name shall prevail: > > > > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > > > > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > > > > He Oversees, is the Overseen > > > > His reign shall persist forever! > > > > For He is I and He is You > > > > He is I and He is You! > > > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > > The day given to us > > > > Arise! Arise! > > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > > > > > > > The original by Faiz"- > > > > > > > > "Hum dekhenge > > > > Lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhenge > > > > Wo din ke jis ka wada hai > > > > Jo looh-e-azl pe likha hai > > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > > > Jab zulm-o-sitam ke koh-e-garan > > > > Rooi ki tarah ud jayenge > > > > Hum mehkoomon ke paaon tale > > > > Ye dharti dhad dhad dhadakegi > > > > Aur ahl-e-hukum ke sar oopar > > > > Jab bijli kad kad kadakegi > > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > > > Jab arz-e-Khuda ke kaabe se > > > > Sab butth uthwae jayenge > > > > Hum ahl-e-safa mardood-e-haram > > > > Masnad pe bithaye jayenge > > > > Sab taaj uchhaale jayenge > > > > Sab takht giraaye jayenge > > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > > > Bas naam rahega Allah ka > > > > Jo ghayab bhi hai hazir bhi > > > > Jo naazir bhi hai manzar bhi > > > > Uthega an-al-Haq ka nara > > > > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > > Aur raaj karegi Khalq-e-Khuda > > > > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > > > > > > > > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > Lazim hai ki hum bhi dekhenge > > > > Hum dekhenge" > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > yasir ~ wrote: > > > > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that > > > > both sides (or as > > > > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and > > > > Muhammad Iqbal - > > > > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri quoting > > > > Meray Dil Meray > > > > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > > > > > > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an > > > > unimportant note that > > > > they both received a similar religious education > > > > while growing up in > > > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > > > sounds. > > > > > > > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum > > > > Dekhenge. it becoming an > > > > anthem during the zia years. > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you > > > > sell. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > > the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > > > subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone > who > > > knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > > > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Fri Sep 7 16:49:45 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:19:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Fai In-Reply-To: <13df7c120709070327l6c7b6d78gadc5995773bb2b31@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <25850.32550.qm@web8402.mail.in.yahoo.com> Arre bhai, if you think it is pointless replying to such people, and such people think that it is pointless talking to you people, then why the hell have you been wracking the brains of the Sarai readers for so many months. I sometime feel that Sarai has been afflicted by some sort of tumour or cancer which is simply not treatable - no medicine seems to be working. It feels like a part of your body which keeps hurting all the time. Some people may be enjoying it - but I am not. Let me tell you, even if we are fighting for some kind of cause, its not helping in any way - its getting more counter-productive. Why can't Sarai think of shifting this discussion of Nationhood/Patriotism/Kashmir/Azadi etc to another mailing list, so that those who don't need it can breath easy. (I know some people will immediately say their suffering needs to be told to everyone, and so on...). But let us give everyone a break. Why can't all of you think of a real life meeting where we can discuss all this - at least we would be able to see each other's faces - how beautiful we look when throwing a stone at someone! All this ghostly debate doesn't seem real to me. --- rashneek kher wrote: > Dear Friends, > > It is pointless to reply to such people...only > answer to them is > > But humko kahee kaafir > Allah ki marzi hai > > > On 9/7/07, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > Dear Gargi of Puedo Intellectual , > > > > > > woh suna chuke hain humein apna faisla, > > har sawal ka jawab sawal se dene wale > > > > kyon umeed karke udas karon khud ko, > > jhooti ass banaee kwabon mein rehne wale > > > > teri nasseb mein hai sirf sohrat-e-harf, > > nahi milenge lafzoon ko mehsoo karne wale > > > > woh laga gaye hain mujh par ilzam kya kya, > > rooz fareb, hamesha se ghaat karne wale > > > > koun koun se zakmon ko chupaoon main, > > itne gehre hain mere ghaw nahi chupne wale > > > > kya pyar karon ab to nafrat bhi nahi ati, > > youn loot gaye humko humse bewafaee karne wale > > > > bech deta hai zamana masihon ko 'Nazeer' > > rehbar he the Isa ko saleeb tak pohchane wale > > > > > > > > Hope you know the context in which the reply is > sent ......and ofcourse > > this > > is not my couplet ,,,,, > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > On 9/7/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > > > > > > Dear ARKP, > > > > > > Yeh kaisa dastan-e-tanhai hai yaron? > > > Apke kahton me Rumi ko parhne ka ahsaas to hai > lekin > > > apke baton se Rumaniyat ki boo tak gayab? > > > > > > > > > Apologies to the non-Hindustani speakers on the > list as I am not capable > > > of > > > translating into English my own words without > signifying, and thereby > > > collapsing, the subtle but significant > difference between say 'boo' and > > > 'mehak' into smell. > > > > > > Gargi Sen > > > > > > On 07/09/2007, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Kshmendra, > > > > Faiz was a "dehria" communist,if you know what > I > > > > mean.Iqbal was an Islamist.Being a poet and a > > > > philosopher is not contrary to being an > Islamist.So,in > > > > that sense,there can be no greater contrast. > > > > Iqbal's philosophy of religious > existentialism- > > > > mard-e-momin, khudi etc was based on Islam.I > do not > > > > see the same celebration of "khudi" in Faiz. > > > > Also,Iqbal was not sufi either.Iqbal wrote a > lot in > > > > Persian.Poetry in every language has a soul of > its > > > > own.When you write in Persian,you cant but > help poets > > > > like Hafez and Rumi whispering in your ear;and > the > > > > mysticism rubs off on you.That can be found in > Iqbal > > > > too.But,Iqbal's philosophy has nothing to do > with > > > > sufism.In fact,my impression is that in his > dialog > > > > Iblees o Jibrael, he is deriding sufis- > > > > "Main khataktaa hoon dile yazdaan mein kaante > ki > > > > tarah, > > > > tu faqat, alla hoo alla hoo ,alla hoo." > > > > This IMO, is Nietzsche style existentialism. > > > > > > > > So,I really don't see much similarity in Faiz > and > > > > Iqbal besides the fact that they were the > greatest > > > > living Urdu poets of their times. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Kshmendra Kaul DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Fri Sep 7 18:00:31 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 05:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Fai In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <726180.5923.qm@web53604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Gargi, Again, are you addressing me? I thought this was a literary discussion.Please lets not get personal.If you do want to contribute anything on the topic,I will answer you. regards Rahul --- Gargi Sen wrote: > Dear ARKP, > > Yeh kaisa dastan-e-tanhai hai yaron? > Apke kahton me Rumi ko parhne ka ahsaas to hai lekin > apke baton se Rumaniyat ki boo tak gayab? > > > Apologies to the non-Hindustani speakers on the list > as I am not capable of > translating into English my own words without > signifying, and thereby > collapsing, the subtle but significant difference > between say 'boo' and > 'mehak' into smell. > > Gargi Sen > > On 07/09/2007, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > > > Hi Kshmendra, > > Faiz was a "dehria" communist,if you know what I > > mean.Iqbal was an Islamist.Being a poet and a > > philosopher is not contrary to being an > Islamist.So,in > > that sense,there can be no greater contrast. > > Iqbal's philosophy of religious existentialism- > > mard-e-momin, khudi etc was based on Islam.I do > not > > see the same celebration of "khudi" in Faiz. > > Also,Iqbal was not sufi either.Iqbal wrote a lot > in > > Persian.Poetry in every language has a soul of its > > own.When you write in Persian,you cant but help > poets > > like Hafez and Rumi whispering in your ear;and the > > mysticism rubs off on you.That can be found in > Iqbal > > too.But,Iqbal's philosophy has nothing to do with > > sufism.In fact,my impression is that in his dialog > > Iblees o Jibrael, he is deriding sufis- > > "Main khataktaa hoon dile yazdaan mein kaante ki > > tarah, > > tu faqat, alla hoo alla hoo ,alla hoo." > > This IMO, is Nietzsche style existentialism. > > > > So,I really don't see much similarity in Faiz and > > Iqbal besides the fact that they were the greatest > > living Urdu poets of their times. > > > > regards > > Rahul > > > > > > --- Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > > Dear Yasir > > > > > > Long overdue. Didnt want to let it go. > > > > > > Fleetingly addressing ".....they both received > a > > > similar religious education while growing up in > > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > > sounds." > > > > > > For me there is not much of a contradiction. > Both > > > were revolutionaries. Both had a "sufi" bent of > > > mind. Both seemed to celeberate "khudi". > > > > > > In my opinion the seeming contradiction might > > > arise out of a limited understanding of Iqbal. > More > > > philosopher than "Islamist" (also more > Philosopher > > > than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who primarily > > > stuck to the finest precepts from the "Quran" > > > (somewhat a Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not the > work > > > of an ordinary soul subscribing to the > "expected". > > > > > > In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on > of > > > Jinnah) was more towards "a Nation for Muslims" > > > rather than an "Islamic (shariah) Nation". The > 1940 > > > Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent > Assembly > > > speech are just 2 pointers. > > > > > > I am sure I sound quite disjointed. Khair. > > > > > > Thanks for Maniza Naqvi's translation of "Hum > > > Daikhaingay". I thought the "anthem", the > challenge, > > > the rousing up, the defiance is missing. > > > > > > Here is an interesting 'variation' by Raamesh > > > Gowri Raghavan. In his words: > > > > > > > > > Here is a transcreation based on Faiz A Faiz's > > > revolutionary Urdu nazm 'Hum dekhenge', and > written > > > to the metre of another revolutionary song, the > > > Marseillaise. > > > > > > "Destiny" > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > Oh! See the vile ziggurats crumble > > > Reduced to ignominous dust! > > > Reduced to ignominous dust! > > > Can you hear the revolution > > > Rumble in the angry streets > > > It thunders fire and lightning > > > To strike the oppressors' nemesis! > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > The day given to us > > > Arise! Arise! > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > Look! From the temple of our faith > > > The evil is now exorcised! > > > The evil is now exorcised! > > > The good are now restored to their > > > High exaltations again! > > > See the generals' stars stripped away > > > And their thrones, their baubles destroyed! > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > The day given to us > > > Arise! Arise! > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > Only His name shall prevail: > > > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > > > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > > > He Oversees, is the Overseen > > > His reign shall persist forever! > > > For He is I and He is You > > > He is I and He is You! > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > The day given to us > > > Arise! Arise! > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > > > > The original by Faiz"- > > > > > > "Hum dekhenge > > > Lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhenge > > > Wo din ke jis ka wada hai > > > Jo looh-e-azl pe likha hai > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > Jab zulm-o-sitam ke koh-e-garan > > > Rooi ki tarah ud jayenge > > > Hum mehkoomon ke paaon tale > > > Ye dharti dhad dhad dhadakegi > > > Aur ahl-e-hukum ke sar oopar > > > Jab bijli kad kad kadakegi > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > Jab arz-e-Khuda ke kaabe se > > > Sab butth uthwae jayenge > > > Hum ahl-e-safa mardood-e-haram > > > Masnad pe bithaye jayenge > > > Sab taaj uchhaale jayenge > > > Sab takht giraaye jayenge > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > Bas naam rahega Allah ka > > > Jo ghayab bhi hai hazir bhi > > > Jo naazir bhi hai manzar bhi > > > Uthega an-al-Haq ka nara > > > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > Aur raaj karegi Khalq-e-Khuda > > > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > > > > > > > Hum dekhenge > > > Lazim hai ki hum bhi dekhenge > > > Hum dekhenge" > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 18:25:41 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 18:55:41 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai Message-ID: There are many members of Sarai who are neither Indian, nor Hindi-speakers. But Indian members of Sarai seem so oblivious to their Indo-centrism that they presume that we will be able to, or want to, follow debates that are at this point even written entirely in Hindi (I refer to recent posts where entire couplets are posted in Hindi w. no translation). This comes at the cost of many other debates that could possibly happen. I've witnessed items posted regarding Bangladesh sinking without a trace/response. Recently, particular "Indian" topics have generated hundreds of replies, drowning out all else. The only time a Bangladeshi cultural producer (Taslima Nasreen) gets debated is when what is at stake is how she was treated in India. Only when Taslima is a vehicle to debate Hyderabad values, Indian secularism, etc does she become a person of interest. Bangladesh/Pakistan/or elsewhere in South Asia does enter into other discussions-- as a foil. To insert immigration into the debate, and of course the ultimate insult that can be flung at Suddha is that "he is no longer in Bangladesh". This weekend, I was talking to Manosh Chowdhury, who has just returned from Japan to Dhaka. Unprovoked he started talking about how "we" is used unquestioningly on Sarai to mean "Indian". Even "South Asian" means "Indian", or at least everything non-Indian is through the prism of the "center". But it's a bore to be the resident scold, or a token. I fear eventually most who feel suffocated by the recent endless debate (a debate which is often between a few individuals, sometimes even one-to-one, and yet it gets sent to the entire list) will have Manosh's reaction. They will drift away, exhausted. As Jeebesh pointed out, it takes very little time to destroy a cyber-community that has been built up painstakingly by Sarai over the years. Tyranny of the few threatens to do just that. From sadan at sarai.net Thu Sep 6 17:43:26 2007 From: sadan at sarai.net (sadan at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:43:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Next Phase Of SAFAR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Rakesh, Gautam and the entire Safar team, congratulations! Only from your mail, I realized that this is not 'kal ki baat' but two years have passed since I first acme to know about the founding of this group from Rakesh. And, it is not just the time but the seer density of activities that fill this canvas of two years is praise-worthy. All the best wishes, sadan. On 12:11 am 09/05/07 "Safar Delhi" wrote: > *The Next Phase Of SAFAR * > > > > > > Dear Friends > > > > Greetings from SAFAR! > > > > As all you know that SAFAR has been working almost for the last two > years. During this period it has organized 'Abhivyakti'11 01 & 02 to > celebrate Dr. Baba Sahab Bhimrao Ambedkar's birth anniversary, held > discussions, seminars and workshop on the issues of caste, gender, > media, RTI, legal awareness & aid camps in various parts of Delhi, > took part in Indian Social Forum 2006, began Shikshaghar, Kitabghar > and Clubs in Seohar and Bhagalpur district of Bihar and recently > attended a film making workshop organized by Shikshantar in Udaipur, > Rajsthan and also organized an interactive meeting with a delegation > of development activists form Pakistan in Delhi. > > > > Till now the organization has not paid attention to the dissemination > & publicity of its work. The first brochure in Hindi (The English > version is still to come) came out this May. As far the publicity is > concerned, some of the activities of SAFAR was covered by The Times > of India, Sahara Time, www.anubhaw.blogspot.com and DD news. > > > > This May* 3 new volunteers* Rajeev Raman, Nitu and Shamreen from > Ambedkar College joined SAFAR. They along with Chanchal did an > ethnographic study of two resettlement colonies Holambi Kalan and > Holambi Khurd in outer Delhi, while Shamreen has done a similar study > in Mustafabad, in the east Delhi. Reports based on both the studies > is likely to come out by the end of September 2007. > > > > This is a fact that whatever SAFAR has done in the last 20-21 months, > was spontaneous without any plan. Yes, it has a proper understanding > of the situation and also the agenda and to some extent a group of > volunteers also, but no plan and proper fund mechanism other than > some issue & event based support from some organization and > individual friends & well-wishers. Now, when the organization is > going to complete 2 years of its inception the team members have felt > the need of a proper organizational set up and a work-plan. Keeping > this necessity in mind, last Sunday (2nd September 2007) the working > committee met in New Delhi. Following are the outcomes: > > > > 1. *Space: *SAFAR does not have proper space yet. This is a big > hindrance in the coordination of day to day activities. It was > decided in the meeting to arrange a work space as the earliest. > > > > 1. *Future plan of activities of SAFAR delhi: * > > * * > > *a. *Now it is decided that SAFAR will concentrate on Colleges > and schools. Organization can interact with the students and teachers > with its modules on media and law. > > > > *b. *RTI camps can also be held at these places alternatively. > In the first round the organization can focus on the colleges and > schools situated on the periphery of Delhi, because these colleges > have many infrastructural problems. > > > > *c. *It was also felt that that some members of SAFAR team can > assist the students of media courses. This could be a root of the > flow of volunteers to the organization. > > > > *d. *Apart from the localities the legal cell of SAFAR will > organsie legal aid & awareness camps in the schools and colleges > also. Legal team will also organize workshops around the issue of > violence, human rights, gender etc, which are directly related to > people's everyday life. > > > > *e. *Experimenting with various media forms will be one of the > main activities of SAFAR. From October 2007, the organization will > start a 8 page newsletter in Hindi (which can be published in English > after a couple of months) and also start a community video unit with > the production of small films and animations probably in November > 2007. > > > > *f. *It was also decided that apart form the above mentioned > activities, the organization will try to associate with other > programmes, struggles, movements, etc of people's interest in Delhi. > > > > 1. *Finance :* Money do matters to function smoothly, but till now > SAFAR does not have any reliable source of fund. Big activities > have been organizing with the support of like minded organizations > and individuals, while the expense of everyday activities always > been shared by few core members. It was felt in the meeting that > this kind of casual approach is insufficient for the sustenance of > the organization. Till now organization's monthly expense (other > than space) is roughly around rs. 3000/-. Since the need of space > is also being felt, there is a need of 08-10, 000/-. It was also > decided that each of the core members will do maximum effort to > increase the *membership* and also take monthly monetary commitment > from the members. These all together will help the organization to > improve its financial health. > > The members were also agreed upon to get professional jobs from other > organizations and individuals to fulfill organizational financial > need. The team members can extend professional help in the field of > research, translation, editing, design, and also can provide > facilitators & trainers for workshops/training programmes on the > issue of caste, gender, media & law. > > > > 1. *British Council* has offered free English classes to the > volunteers of SAFAR, which was applauded by the team members. Some > of them expressed their desire to learn the same. Now the process > of materializing the same will be started. > > > > 1. *Division of work*: > > > > (i) Coordinator, University > Mr. Pradeep Kumar Singh > > (ii) Coordinator, Legal Cell Ms. > Chandra Nigam > > (iii) Coordinator, School > Mr. Naresh Kumar > > (iv) Coordinator, Research > Mr. Naresh Goswami > > (v) Coordinator, Outreach > Mr. Adityanath > > (vi) Coordinator, Media & Publication Ms. Bhawna > > (vii) Coordinator, Student Unit > Ms. Chanchal Mehlawat > > (viii) Coordinator, Finance > Mr. Sheetal Shyam > > (ix) SAFAR Delhi Co-ordinator Mr. > Gautam Jayprakash > > > > 1. *Forthcoming activities: *SAFAR*, *Delhi will organize a series > of workshop on media, law & RTI act in the coming months. > Following is the tentative schedule: > > > > Media Worshop*: * > > Time & Date: 10.30 am, 15th Septemeber, 2007 > > Venue: Dr. B R Ambedkar College, DU > > > > RTI workshop: > > Date: Second Saturday of October 2007 > > Venue: Tis hazari Court/Karkarduma Court/ Faculty of Law?/Delhi > School of Social Work > > > > RTI Camp > > Time & Date: 10 am, 8 September, 2007 > > Venue: Manoranjan Kaksha, DA Flats, Timarpur > > > > Besides the above mentioned things the organization discussed the > development of *SAFAR Bihar* also. Currently 5 Shikshaghars (informal > education centers), one Kitabghar (library), one club is running in > Tariyani Chhapra village of Seohar district. Recently 3 volunteers > from the same village had attended a 10 day residential film making > workshop in Shikshantar, Udaipur. Now they are in the process of > setting up a Mediaghar (a media lab) there with the help of some more > volunteers. A laptop and a camcorder were given to them (with the > support of PALAS) to start the community media project. But the team > members felt that merely these equipments are not sufficient to set > up the mediaghar. They need to have some more logistical support such > as technological know how, space, proper power supply etc. It was > also decided that the organization should think about having at least > a week long residential camps there, where besides media some other > issue of local concern can be discussed, which will help them to do > their work. > > Rakesh will be responsible to coordinate the work of SAFAR Bihar with > the help of local volunteers. He will also be assisting the Delhi > team. > > * * > > *Our partners & associates* > > Several organizations and individuals including Insaf-Delhi, Kriti, > Satark Nagrik Sangathan (SNS), PALAS & Nav-Srijan, Asmita Theater > Group, Youthreach and Pravah have helped SAFAR in carrying out its > activities. The organization thanks all of them and wishes to > maintain and sustain this association, and is ready to collaborate > with them in future. > > > > Your suggestions and support are most welcome > > > Warm regards > > Gautam & Rakesh > > for safar team > > -- > SAFAR a collective journey of researchers, journalists, students, > lawyers, activists, cultural practitioners and performing artists > with a deep commitment to the ideals of social and gender equality. > This is an open space for the dialogue, betterment and empowerment of > the marginalized. > > http://www.freewebs.com/safarindia > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Fri Sep 7 23:47:17 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:17:17 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0475cec9a62302a2cae0eb1cefee161b@mail.xtdnet.nl> Dear Vedavati, Can you please claridy further how Muslims caused riots after Babri Masjid was pulled down? I am trifle surprised, but would like to know why you say Muslims perpetrated riots after Babri demolition? By the way, my family experienced violence at the hands of a 'Hindu mob' during the riots in Mumbai. Now I wonder whether they were Muslim converts? Zainab On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:53:16 +0000, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > yes, kshemendra, my mails are being blocked by sarai and i am not > surprised because this is the real nature of secularism practiced in > india. > > this secularism will lead to disaster i am sure. > > few decades back britishers encouraged muslim separatism which ultimately > resulted into partition. today same great job is being done by > psudosecularists and i will not be surprised if one day muslims again > start giving same slogan 'islam khatareme hai' leading the nation to many > more partitions. > > 'gujrat' is a 'shame' but 'kashmir' is not! > when one babri was pulled down then so many riots (initiated by muslims) > took place more over their acts were justified by psudosecularists > but many temples were pulled down in kashmir ...spineless hindus did not > feel bad and ofcourse psudo secularists kept their mouths shut. > > list is very big. this is secularism. if you feel what i have written is > not wrong please distribute it. > > thanks > vj > > > From: vrjogi at hotmail.comTo: tapasrayx at gmail.com; > reader-list at sarai.netSubject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in > Vedavati's houseDate: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:21:04 +0000 > > > no i am not suffering from any mental problem, i only tell the truth which > psudo secularists can not digest. vedavati > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 > 13:02:38 +0530> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > > Please do not forward anything to me in future. I do not appreciate it.> > > For your information, I have already received from Reader-list the mail > > you claim was blocked and have forwarded to me offlist.> > I suspect you > may be suffering from some type of delusion or paranoia.> > TR> > > > Vedavati Jogi wrote:> > i have no alternative but to forward this mail to > all of you > > individually as readers list people don't dare to publish > my mail.> > i request all of you to please read this correspondance. views > expressed > > by people like roger are posing real threat to this country' > unity.> > > > vedavati> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> From: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > To: rgdj12 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> >> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house> > Date: > Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:55:48 +0000> > > > pakistan is an enemy so i don't > blame them as they are doing what an> > enemy is supposed to do. i am > talking against psudoseculars like> > you. nobody has blocked minority > advancement in india otherwise> > shahruhk, irfan pathan, zakir hussin, > javed akhtar would not have > > Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here! > _________________________________________________________________ > Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! > http://get.live.com/en-ie/messenger/overview > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 04:25:00 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:55:00 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Fai In-Reply-To: <2536.25891.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <5af37bb0709010230k4568a66do582ae68a35e9c21a@mail.gmail.com> <2536.25891.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709071555k2a7694a2hf36b77f3585f80a6@mail.gmail.com> KK: a variation it is (Raamesh Gowri Raghavan's) of the marseillaise more than it is of faiz but if the marseillaise (the french national anthem) is the music, it should be sung by someone who is iqbal bano's match in representing an era, piaf. piaf singing faiz. http://www.firstfoot.com/News/images/Edith Piaf - Marseillaise.mp3 (i cant tell if this is the real piaf or from the new movie on her. fred?) cant help but note the marseillaise being slightly bloodier than faiz or raghavan http://www.elysee.fr/elysee/elysee.fr/anglais/the_symbols_of_the_republic/the_marseillaise/the_marseillaise.20352.html and the absence of religious metaphor as in faiz's 'raaj karay gee khalq e khudaa' or as hard as that is to translate. raaj karay gee : will rule khalq e khuda : lit. creation of god - but also meaning the laity, crowd, people, awaam or, utthay ga analhaq kaa naara the cry 'i am truth/god' will rise above (mansur hallaj was crucified for this utterance) i mean there is no mystery in this. no otherness. thats very nice. so jan man gan is ok on that count. best yasir On 9/6/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Yasir > > Long overdue. Didnt want to let it go. > > Fleetingly addressing ".....they both received a similar religious education > while growing up in Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that sounds." > > For me there is not much of a contradiction. Both were revolutionaries. Both > had a "sufi" bent of mind. Both seemed to celeberate "khudi". > > In my opinion the seeming contradiction might arise out of a limited > understanding of Iqbal. More philosopher than "Islamist" (also more > Philosopher than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who primarily stuck to the > finest precepts from the "Quran" (somewhat a Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not > the work of an ordinary soul subscribing to the "expected". > > In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on of Jinnah) was more towards > "a Nation for Muslims" rather than an "Islamic (shariah) Nation". The 1940 > Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent Assembly speech are just 2 > pointers. > > I am sure I sound quite disjointed. Khair. > > Thanks for Maniza Naqvi's translation of "Hum Daikhaingay". I thought the > "anthem", the challenge, the rousing up, the defiance is missing. > > Here is an interesting 'variation' by Raamesh Gowri Raghavan. In his words: > > > Here is a transcreation based on Faiz A Faiz's revolutionary Urdu nazm 'Hum > dekhenge', and written to the metre of another revolutionary song, the > Marseillaise. > > "Destiny" > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > The day we dreamed of has now come! > Oh! See the vile ziggurats crumble > Reduced to ignominous dust! > Reduced to ignominous dust! > Can you hear the revolution > Rumble in the angry streets > It thunders fire and lightning > To strike the oppressors' nemesis! > > Our destiny is come > The day given to us > Arise! Arise! > For the cast-iron pledge > Must now be redeemed! > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > The day we dreamed of has now come! > Look! From the temple of our faith > The evil is now exorcised! > The evil is now exorcised! > The good are now restored to their > High exaltations again! > See the generals' stars stripped away > And their thrones, their baubles destroyed! > > Our destiny is come > The day given to us > Arise! Arise! > For the cast-iron pledge > Must now be redeemed! > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > The day we dreamed of has now come! > Only His name shall prevail: > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > He Oversees, is the Overseen > His reign shall persist forever! > For He is I and He is You > He is I and He is You! > > Our destiny is come > The day given to us > Arise! Arise! > For the cast-iron pledge > Must now be redeemed! > > > The original by Faiz"- > > "Hum dekhenge > Lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhenge > Wo din ke jis ka wada hai > Jo looh-e-azl pe likha hai > Hum dekhenge > > Jab zulm-o-sitam ke koh-e-garan > Rooi ki tarah ud jayenge > Hum mehkoomon ke paaon tale > Ye dharti dhad dhad dhadakegi > Aur ahl-e-hukum ke sar oopar > Jab bijli kad kad kadakegi > Hum dekhenge > > Jab arz-e-Khuda ke kaabe se > Sab butth uthwae jayenge > Hum ahl-e-safa mardood-e-haram > Masnad pe bithaye jayenge > Sab taaj uchhaale jayenge > Sab takht giraaye jayenge > Hum dekhenge > > Bas naam rahega Allah ka > Jo ghayab bhi hai hazir bhi > Jo naazir bhi hai manzar bhi > Uthega an-al-Haq ka nara > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > Aur raaj karegi Khalq-e-Khuda > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > Hum dekhenge > Lazim hai ki hum bhi dekhenge > Hum dekhenge" > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > yasir ~ wrote: > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that both sides (or as > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and Muhammad Iqbal - > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri quoting Meray Dil Meray > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an unimportant note that > they both received a similar religious education while growing up in > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that sounds. > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum Dekhenge. it becoming an > anthem during the zia years. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 04:55:56 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:25:56 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Fai In-Reply-To: <2536.25891.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <5af37bb0709010230k4568a66do582ae68a35e9c21a@mail.gmail.com> <2536.25891.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709071625q3591f20ft50f19224c072d07f@mail.gmail.com> KK and Rahul various people - muslim writers/"reformers" - have reacted to worked through, sufi ideas differently in hindustan. this wasn't always to reassert orthodoxy of the time, but also a somewhat intertwined attempt to engage with the collective. so you have mujjadid alf saani against chishtis and shias, shah wali ullah working with various schools including sufi and shia, iqbal a scholar of arabic, persian metaphysics and german idealism of goethe, hegel and nietzche saying that the higher stage of sufism was not an abstraction but lay in re-engaging with the collective community, maududi (the other widely-read/known scholar with iqbal) reacting against his sufi legacy and the deoband school to engage with the collective socius and work towards asserting power though electoral party politics (such as in pakistan), and faiz, not unlike iqbal but in his own way) re-worked urdu poetry's mythological legacy (which is both metaphysivcal and sufi) to engage with society through his poetry - faiz being a founding? member of the progressive writers movement/association, whose membership in general was revolutionary communist. i was trying to sketch here, with my ignorance, as helpful as that might be, to illustrate how people have worked variously through/with sufi ideas. best yasir On 9/6/07, Kshmendra Kaul : > > For me there is not much of a contradiction. Both were revolutionaries. Both > had a "sufi" bent of mind. Both seemed to celeberate "khudi". > > In my opinion the seeming contradiction might arise out of a limited > understanding of Iqbal. More philosopher than "Islamist" (also more > Philosopher than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who primarily stuck to the > finest precepts from the "Quran" (somewhat a Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not > the work of an ordinary soul subscribing to the "expected". > > In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on of Jinnah) was more towards > "a Nation for Muslims" rather than an "Islamic (shariah) Nation". The 1940 > Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent Assembly speech are just 2 > pointers. & Rahul Asthana : Faiz was a "dehria" communist,if you know what I mean.Iqbal was an Islamist.Being a poet and a philosopher is not contrary to being an Islamist.So,in that sense,there can be no greater contrast. Iqbal's philosophy of religious existentialism- mard-e-momin, khudi etc was based on Islam.I do not see the same celebration of "khudi" in Faiz. Also,Iqbal was not sufi either.Iqbal wrote a lot in Persian.Poetry in every language has a soul of its own.When you write in Persian,you cant but help poets like Hafez and Rumi whispering in your ear;and the mysticism rubs off on you.That can be found in Iqbal too.But,Iqbal's philosophy has nothing to do with sufism.In fact,my impression is that in his dialog Iblees o Jibrael, he is deriding sufis- "Main khataktaa hoon dile yazdaan mein kaante ki tarah, tu faqat, alla hoo alla hoo ,alla hoo." This IMO, is Nietzsche style existentialism. From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 04:57:51 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:27:51 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] marseillaise (was Two Iqbals & One Fai[z]) re-posting Message-ID: <5af37bb0709071627h6e5c0f11p6e418466adc49d2f@mail.gmail.com> KK: a variation it is (Raamesh Gowri Raghavan's) of the marseillaise more than it is of faiz but if the marseillaise (the french national anthem) is the music, it should be sung by someone who is iqbal bano's match in representing an era, piaf. piaf singing faiz. http://www.firstfoot.com/News/images/Edith Piaf - Marseillaise.mp3 (i cant tell if this is the real piaf or from the new movie on her. fred?) cant help but note the marseillaise being slightly bloodier than faiz or raghavan http://www.elysee.fr/elysee/elysee.fr/anglais/the_symbols_of_the_republic/the_marseillaise/the_marseillaise.20352.html and the absence of religious metaphor as in faiz's 'raaj karay gee khalq e khudaa' or as hard as that is to translate. raaj karay gee : will rule khalq e khuda : lit. creation of god - but also meaning the laity, crowd, people, awaam or, utthay ga analhaq kaa naara the cry 'i am truth/god' will rise above (mansur hallaj was crucified for this utterance) i mean there is no mystery in this. no otherness. thats very nice. so jan man gan is ok on that count. best yasir On 9/6/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Yasir > > Long overdue. Didnt want to let it go. > > Fleetingly addressing ".....they both received a similar religious education > while growing up in Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that sounds." > > For me there is not much of a contradiction. Both were revolutionaries. Both > had a "sufi" bent of mind. Both seemed to celeberate "khudi". > > In my opinion the seeming contradiction might arise out of a limited > understanding of Iqbal. More philosopher than "Islamist" (also more > Philosopher than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who primarily stuck to the > finest precepts from the "Quran" (somewhat a Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not > the work of an ordinary soul subscribing to the "expected". > > In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on of Jinnah) was more towards > "a Nation for Muslims" rather than an "Islamic (shariah) Nation". The 1940 > Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent Assembly speech are just 2 > pointers. > > I am sure I sound quite disjointed. Khair. > > Thanks for Maniza Naqvi's translation of "Hum Daikhaingay". I thought the > "anthem", the challenge, the rousing up, the defiance is missing. > > Here is an interesting 'variation' by Raamesh Gowri Raghavan. In his words: > > > Here is a transcreation based on Faiz A Faiz's revolutionary Urdu nazm 'Hum > dekhenge', and written to the metre of another revolutionary song, the > Marseillaise. > > "Destiny" > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > The day we dreamed of has now come! > Oh! See the vile ziggurats crumble > Reduced to ignominous dust! > Reduced to ignominous dust! > Can you hear the revolution > Rumble in the angry streets > It thunders fire and lightning > To strike the oppressors' nemesis! > > Our destiny is come > The day given to us > Arise! Arise! > For the cast-iron pledge > Must now be redeemed! > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > The day we dreamed of has now come! > Look! From the temple of our faith > The evil is now exorcised! > The evil is now exorcised! > The good are now restored to their > High exaltations again! > See the generals' stars stripped away > And their thrones, their baubles destroyed! > > Our destiny is come > The day given to us > Arise! Arise! > For the cast-iron pledge > Must now be redeemed! > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > The day we dreamed of has now come! > Only His name shall prevail: > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > He Oversees, is the Overseen > His reign shall persist forever! > For He is I and He is You > He is I and He is You! > > Our destiny is come > The day given to us > Arise! Arise! > For the cast-iron pledge > Must now be redeemed! > > > The original by Faiz"- > > "Hum dekhenge > Lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhenge > Wo din ke jis ka wada hai > Jo looh-e-azl pe likha hai > Hum dekhenge > > Jab zulm-o-sitam ke koh-e-garan > Rooi ki tarah ud jayenge > Hum mehkoomon ke paaon tale > Ye dharti dhad dhad dhadakegi > Aur ahl-e-hukum ke sar oopar > Jab bijli kad kad kadakegi > Hum dekhenge > > Jab arz-e-Khuda ke kaabe se > Sab butth uthwae jayenge > Hum ahl-e-safa mardood-e-haram > Masnad pe bithaye jayenge > Sab taaj uchhaale jayenge > Sab takht giraaye jayenge > Hum dekhenge > > Bas naam rahega Allah ka > Jo ghayab bhi hai hazir bhi > Jo naazir bhi hai manzar bhi > Uthega an-al-Haq ka nara > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > Aur raaj karegi Khalq-e-Khuda > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > Hum dekhenge > Lazim hai ki hum bhi dekhenge > Hum dekhenge" > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > yasir ~ wrote: > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that both sides (or as > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and Muhammad Iqbal - > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri quoting Meray Dil Meray > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an unimportant note that > they both received a similar religious education while growing up in > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that sounds. > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum Dekhenge. it becoming an > anthem during the zia years. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > From uddipana at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 13:46:26 2007 From: uddipana at gmail.com (Uddipana Goswami) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 13:46:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] www.museindia.com Message-ID: With apologies for cross-posting. *** I am editing a forthcoming issue on the literatures of Assam (not merely Axamiyā literature) for *Muse India* (www.museindia.com), a literary e-journal with the primary objective of showcasing Indian writings in English and in English translation to a broad-based global readership. Equal importance will be given to Axamiyā and non-Axamiyā literatures of Assam in the proposed issue which intends to serve as an introduction to the literatures of Assam for audiences from outside the region. This is a call for submissions for that issue in the following fields: - Essays and articles, not exceeding 1500 words on important phases in literatures from Assam. - Original and translated poems. - Original and translated prose (fiction and non-fiction). - Interviews and conversations with writers. - Book reviews. - Any other literary compositions which do not fall within watertight categories. Especially welcome are translations from early and medieval periods of the history of Assam, and oral lore. *** *Submissions will be accepted only via email.* Original work in English must be pasted in the body of the mail, as well as attached as a .doc or .rtf file. Translated work must be sent in the same manner, and must be accompanied by a scanned copy of the original in .pdf or .jpg format. Translators must have permission of authors for all translated material. All submission and further query should be sent to uddipana.goswami at gmail.com The last date for submissions is 31 October 2007. *** Uddipana Goswami www.jajabori-mon.blogspot.com From sen.gargi at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 14:43:11 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 14:43:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I apologise Message-ID: Dear All, I sincerely apologise for sending a comment in Hindustani without translating it into English and leading to the deluge of comments without translations. My only defence is that while I think and speak in three languages I can only write in one and i couldn't translate. Still I see that I must try and translate, however badly, for everyone on the list to engage with the thought or at least not publicly articulate the thought in a different language. Sorry about doing something without thinking through its implication and consequences . Gargi On 07/09/2007, rashneek kher wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > It is pointless to reply to such people...only answer to them is > > But humko kahee kaafir > Allah ki marzi hai > > > On 9/7/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Dear Gargi of Puedo Intellectual , > > > > > > woh suna chuke hain humein apna faisla, > > har sawal ka jawab sawal se dene wale > > > > kyon umeed karke udas karon khud ko, > > jhooti ass banaee kwabon mein rehne wale > > > > teri nasseb mein hai sirf sohrat-e-harf, > > nahi milenge lafzoon ko mehsoo karne wale > > > > woh laga gaye hain mujh par ilzam kya kya, > > rooz fareb, hamesha se ghaat karne wale > > > > koun koun se zakmon ko chupaoon main, > > itne gehre hain mere ghaw nahi chupne wale > > > > kya pyar karon ab to nafrat bhi nahi ati, > > youn loot gaye humko humse bewafaee karne wale > > > > bech deta hai zamana masihon ko 'Nazeer' > > rehbar he the Isa ko saleeb tak pohchane wale > > > > > > > > Hope you know the context in which the reply is sent ......and ofcourse > > this > > is not my couplet ,,,,, > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > On 9/7/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > > > > > > Dear ARKP, > > > > > > Yeh kaisa dastan-e-tanhai hai yaron? > > > Apke kahton me Rumi ko parhne ka ahsaas to hai lekin > > > apke baton se Rumaniyat ki boo tak gayab? > > > > > > > > > Apologies to the non-Hindustani speakers on the list as I am not > > capable > > > of > > > translating into English my own words without signifying, and thereby > > > collapsing, the subtle but significant difference between say 'boo' > > and > > > 'mehak' into smell. > > > > > > Gargi Sen > > > > > > On 07/09/2007, Rahul Asthana < rahul_capri at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Kshmendra, > > > > Faiz was a "dehria" communist,if you know what I > > > > mean.Iqbal was an Islamist.Being a poet and a > > > > philosopher is not contrary to being an Islamist.So,in > > > > that sense,there can be no greater contrast. > > > > Iqbal's philosophy of religious existentialism- > > > > mard-e-momin, khudi etc was based on Islam.I do not > > > > see the same celebration of "khudi" in Faiz. > > > > Also,Iqbal was not sufi either.Iqbal wrote a lot in > > > > Persian.Poetry in every language has a soul of its > > > > own.When you write in Persian,you cant but help poets > > > > like Hafez and Rumi whispering in your ear;and the > > > > mysticism rubs off on you.That can be found in Iqbal > > > > too.But,Iqbal's philosophy has nothing to do with > > > > sufism.In fact,my impression is that in his dialog > > > > Iblees o Jibrael, he is deriding sufis- > > > > "Main khataktaa hoon dile yazdaan mein kaante ki > > > > tarah, > > > > tu faqat, alla hoo alla hoo ,alla hoo." > > > > This IMO, is Nietzsche style existentialism. > > > > > > > > So,I really don't see much similarity in Faiz and > > > > Iqbal besides the fact that they were the greatest > > > > living Urdu poets of their times. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Kshmendra Kaul < kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Yasir > > > > > > > > > > Long overdue. Didnt want to let it go. > > > > > > > > > > Fleetingly addressing ".....they both received a > > > > > similar religious education while growing up in > > > > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > > > > sounds." > > > > > > > > > > For me there is not much of a contradiction. Both > > > > > were revolutionaries. Both had a "sufi" bent of > > > > > mind. Both seemed to celeberate "khudi". > > > > > > > > > > In my opinion the seeming contradiction might > > > > > arise out of a limited understanding of Iqbal. More > > > > > philosopher than "Islamist" (also more Philosopher > > > > > than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who primarily > > > > > stuck to the finest precepts from the "Quran" > > > > > (somewhat a Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not the work > > > > > of an ordinary soul subscribing to the "expected". > > > > > > > > > > In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on of > > > > > Jinnah) was more towards "a Nation for Muslims" > > > > > rather than an "Islamic (shariah) Nation". The 1940 > > > > > Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent Assembly > > > > > speech are just 2 pointers. > > > > > > > > > > I am sure I sound quite disjointed. Khair. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for Maniza Naqvi's translation of "Hum > > > > > Daikhaingay". I thought the "anthem", the challenge, > > > > > the rousing up, the defiance is missing. > > > > > > > > > > Here is an interesting 'variation' by Raamesh > > > > > Gowri Raghavan. In his words: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a transcreation based on Faiz A Faiz's > > > > > revolutionary Urdu nazm 'Hum dekhenge', and written > > > > > to the metre of another revolutionary song, the > > > > > Marseillaise. > > > > > > > > > > "Destiny" > > > > > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > > > Oh! See the vile ziggurats crumble > > > > > Reduced to ignominous dust! > > > > > Reduced to ignominous dust! > > > > > Can you hear the revolution > > > > > Rumble in the angry streets > > > > > It thunders fire and lightning > > > > > To strike the oppressors' nemesis! > > > > > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > > > The day given to us > > > > > Arise! Arise! > > > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > > > Look! From the temple of our faith > > > > > The evil is now exorcised! > > > > > The evil is now exorcised! > > > > > The good are now restored to their > > > > > High exaltations again! > > > > > See the generals' stars stripped away > > > > > And their thrones, their baubles destroyed! > > > > > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > > > The day given to us > > > > > Arise! Arise! > > > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > > > > > Fear no more my fellow countrymen > > > > > The day we dreamed of has now come! > > > > > Only His name shall prevail: > > > > > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > > > > > Who's Nobody, yet Everybody! > > > > > He Oversees, is the Overseen > > > > > His reign shall persist forever! > > > > > For He is I and He is You > > > > > He is I and He is You! > > > > > > > > > > Our destiny is come > > > > > The day given to us > > > > > Arise! Arise! > > > > > For the cast-iron pledge > > > > > Must now be redeemed! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The original by Faiz"- > > > > > > > > > > "Hum dekhenge > > > > > Lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhenge > > > > > Wo din ke jis ka wada hai > > > > > Jo looh-e-azl pe likha hai > > > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > > > > > Jab zulm-o-sitam ke koh-e-garan > > > > > Rooi ki tarah ud jayenge > > > > > Hum mehkoomon ke paaon tale > > > > > Ye dharti dhad dhad dhadakegi > > > > > Aur ahl-e-hukum ke sar oopar > > > > > Jab bijli kad kad kadakegi > > > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > > > > > Jab arz-e-Khuda ke kaabe se > > > > > Sab butth uthwae jayenge > > > > > Hum ahl-e-safa mardood-e-haram > > > > > Masnad pe bithaye jayenge > > > > > Sab taaj uchhaale jayenge > > > > > Sab takht giraaye jayenge > > > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > > > > > > Bas naam rahega Allah ka > > > > > Jo ghayab bhi hai hazir bhi > > > > > Jo naazir bhi hai manzar bhi > > > > > Uthega an-al-Haq ka nara > > > > > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > > > Aur raaj karegi Khalq-e-Khuda > > > > > Jo mai bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hum dekhenge > > > > > Lazim hai ki hum bhi dekhenge > > > > > Hum dekhenge" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yasir ~ wrote: > > > > > I cannot but fail to note and be heartened that > > > > > both sides (or as > > > > > many) find inspiration in Faiz Ahmed Faiz and > > > > > Muhammad Iqbal - > > > > > Kshemendra quoting Niya Shivaalaa, Cashmeeri quoting > > > > > Meray Dil Meray > > > > > Musafir and Rashneek going back to Baang e Dara. > > > > > > > > > > Besides the Kashmeer connection it is not an > > > > > unimportant note that > > > > > they both received a similar religious education > > > > > while growing up in > > > > > Sialkot - however apparently contradictory that > > > > > sounds. > > > > > > > > > > I will let Iqbal Bano sound it - Faiz's Hum > > > > > Dekhenge. it becoming an > > > > > anthem during the zia years. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6kiQjZePbc > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you > > > > > sell. > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > > > the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > > > > subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone > > who > > > > knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > > > > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 13:55:02 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 01:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Inviting you to puncture me. Message-ID: <781771.75397.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Note: forwarded message attached. --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Sat Sep 8 15:07:18 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 10:37:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3008.96579.qm@web8404.mail.in.yahoo.com> No, no... we won't talk about Bangladesh and Pakistan. Aren't those regions part of the Akhand Bharat. I hope you know what akhand means. You better start learning Hindi or else you would be branded anti-national. You are a security threat to our Rashtra. You are a Bangladeshi. (Sorry Naeem - that wasn't real me. I think being on the Sarai list I am slowly turning into a Patriotic Indian, which practically means being a Gaurav shali Bharatiye and no longer respecting other cultures and languages). By the way, they were exchanging Urdu couplets, not Hindi. Since when has Urdu become Indian? --- Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > There are many members of Sarai who are neither > Indian, nor > Hindi-speakers. But Indian members of Sarai seem so > oblivious to > their Indo-centrism that they presume that we will > be able to, or want > to, follow debates that are at this point even > written entirely in > Hindi (I refer to recent posts where entire couplets > are posted in > Hindi w. no translation). > > This comes at the cost of many other debates that > could possibly > happen. I've witnessed items posted regarding > Bangladesh sinking > without a trace/response. Recently, particular > "Indian" topics have > generated hundreds of replies, drowning out all > else. The only time a > Bangladeshi cultural producer (Taslima Nasreen) gets > debated is when > what is at stake is how she was treated in India. > Only when Taslima > is a vehicle to debate Hyderabad values, Indian > secularism, etc does > she become a person of interest. > > Bangladesh/Pakistan/or elsewhere in South Asia does > enter into other > discussions-- as a foil. To insert immigration into > the debate, and > of course the ultimate insult that can be flung at > Suddha is that "he > is no longer in Bangladesh". > > This weekend, I was talking to Manosh Chowdhury, who > has just returned > from Japan to Dhaka. Unprovoked he started talking > about how "we" is > used unquestioningly on Sarai to mean "Indian". > Even "South Asian" > means "Indian", or at least everything non-Indian is > through the prism > of the "center". > > But it's a bore to be the resident scold, or a > token. I fear > eventually most who feel suffocated by the recent > endless debate (a > debate which is often between a few individuals, > sometimes even > one-to-one, and yet it gets sent to the entire list) > will have > Manosh's reaction. They will drift away, exhausted. > > As Jeebesh pointed out, it takes very little time to > destroy a > cyber-community that has been built up painstakingly > by Sarai over the > years. Tyranny of the few threatens to do just > that. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From sen.gargi at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 15:58:26 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 15:58:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Film Industry in Service of the State: cinema, propaganda and the nation-state Message-ID: Dear All, I am pasting below an essay I wrote while I was in a different life and time. I feel that the essay might be of use to the current debate going on this list. Gargi Sen ***************************************************************************************** Film Industry in Service of State: cinema, propaganda and the nation-state Far from simply being banished to the dustbin of history as aberrations and atrocities, the spectacles and paraphernalia of National Socialism have assumed a privileged place in American mass culture. (Rentschler, 1996: 5-6) Never before and in no other country have images and language been abused so unscrupulously as here, never before and nowhere else have they been debased so deeply as vehicles to transmit lies. (Wenders. 1977: 128) Introduction The words by Wim Wenders quoted above, appear to sum up the disgust and condemnation that the young German filmmaker of the post-Second World War era felt towards the Nazi cinema. Their rejection of the Nazi cinema appears to be the common thread amongst them as their individual styles, and the themes that they tackle, are very diverse. Indeed the diversity is so immense amongst directors like Wim Wenders, Werner Herzog, and Rainer Werner Fassbiner that in order to classify their work under the umbrella of 'new wave' required a conscious search for a common link. The link then appears to be their engagement with their immediate history and their need "to invent a new cinematic language uncontaminated by the fascists." (Sieglohr, 2000) In breaking with the past the new directors developed "ambling narratives with a lingering on details and seemingly unimportant events; a stress on mood rather than on action, and an overall sense of ambiguity." (Bordwell, 1985:206-7) The break with the past, according to the directors of the German New Wave, must be complete and severe. However, that break did not happen. Despite the horror and repulsion that the Nazi regime generated in retrospect, Nazi films, at least a few amongst them, on the contrary appear to have been elevated to nearly cult-like status. Rentschler (1996) provides evidence of how the films of the Nazi era continue to be in circulation in Germany, in the United States and elsewhere. Their popularity has not diminished. Indeed, their imagery continues to exert influences on Hollywood. Filmmakers of that era tour the US as their work, of that period, is extolled by some critics for its humanity, sensitivity and integrity. (Brownlow, 1966: 19) "Large circulation magazines have carried photographs of Mick Jagger and Andy Warhol hobnobbing with Leni Reifenstahl. [...] Jodie Foster has announced plans for a Reifenstahl biopic. George Lucas restaged the closing scene from Triumph of the Will in the finale of Star Wars; a recent rock video by Michael Jackson likewise unabashedly recycles Riefenstahl's images of soldier males paying deference to their master. American artists pilfer the Nazi legacy with relish. The beautiful divers, dancers, and discuss throwers of Olympia serve as prototype for television commercials, magazine ads, and photo spreads." (Rentschler, 1996: 6) It may be added here that the Nazi films, by and large, enjoyed immense popularity during the period that they were made and shown and that the audience attendance to the cinemas continued to show an upward trend during the Third Reich. Indeed, under the National Socialist government the film industry became economically robust. (Welch, 1983a) The question then that arises is if the films of that period were mere vehicles of propaganda why do they continue to exert an influence till date, especially as the world in general is aware of, and to some extent witness to, the horrific excesses committed during that era? Why haven't they been banished to the dustbins of history? Do their existence bear a witness to the historic need to not forget the past in order to not repeat it, or does the reason lie somewhere else? Did these films establish an aesthetics that is simply irresistible? In exploring the response of the film industry to the needs of the state the following essay will pay particular emphasis on the aesthetics of the Nazi cinema. The essay attempts to explore the development of the National Socialist German state while it was led by the Nationalsozilistiche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei i.e. the National Socialist German Workers' Party or the Nazi Party as well as its peculiar imperatives; the nature of the film industry in Germany; and finally its response to the needs of the state through the study of a few selected films of that period. The German state To fully understand the response of the film industry to the needs of the German state during the Second World War it is perhaps necessary to explore the imperatives of the German state in the period just before the war as well as its consolidation during the critical twelve year period (1933-1945) under the leadership of Adolph Hitler and the Nationalsozilistiche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP) or the Nazi party. This is important to not only understand the needs of the state but also the response of the industry as during this period successive, and fairly successful, attempts were made by Hitler's minister for Propaganda: Joseph Goebbels to reorganise and streamline the film industry, attempts that were neither contested nor opposed by the film industry. The rise of Hitler The period after the First World War was one of deepening economic and social crisis in Germany. In 1918 the Social Democrats came to power but "were so unprepared for a revolution that they originally did not even think of establishing a German Republic. [...] The leaders, in whom Lenin had placed such hope, were incapable of removing the big landowners, the industrialists, the generals, and the judiciary. Instead of building a people's army they relied on the undemocratic Freikorps. On January 15, 1919, the Freikorps murdered Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Leibknecht to be followed by a series of murders, not one of which was ever punished. After the first week of the new Republic the ruling classes began to establish themselves." (Kracauer, 1947) The Weimer republic, administered according to the Treaty of Versailles and the deepening economic crisis of Germany provided the arena for the rise of Hitler. His stress on volkisch (nationalist) and extreme nationalist appeal, and his rabid anti-Marxism were viewed favourably by the right wing, and his taking over the mantle of the Fürher, a strong, mystical leader of, and from, the masses capable of liberating Germany from its economic and social difficulties slowly won over the rest. (Kershaw, 1987) However, in the period of the 1920s outside of small groups of fanatical Bavarian Nazis, Hitler's image for the wider German population was "little more than that of a vulgar demagogue capable of drumming up passionate opposition." (Kershaw, 1987: 23) Even after the success of the 1930 election German intelligentsia felt that the Nazi party would collapse as their social base was diffuse, they didn't have clear political programmes, and the party was heavily dependent on the cult surrounding Hitler. Very soon however the party emerged as the only alternative and was able to consolidate its mass support. From a 33% share of the votes in 1933 when Hitler became the Chancellor it was able to, over the next three years, win over the "the majority of the majority which had not voted for him in 1933." (Kershaw, 1987: 5) From the capitalist to the working classes, Germans enmasse came under the spell of the Füehrer. Historians have attributed many reasons for this shift. However, sifting through the debate two reasons stand as of particular importance. First, the ability to expand the notion of volkisch, the national community, to that of volksgemeinschaft, community of people or a German society purged of 'alien' elements. And secondly, the creation of the Führer, a strong, moral, heroic leader of the masses who comes from the common stock but will lead the nation and its people to victory and strength. And propaganda played a major role in establishing both. Still, propaganda is most effective when it's building upon, and not countering, already existing values and mentalities. Through a study of the German films that predates the rise of Nazi party, Kracauer (1947) is able to demonstrate that the need for a strong leader existed in the German psyche far before Hitler. "Heroic leadership was a significant element in the ideas of nationalist and volkisch Right long before Hitler's spectacular rise to prominence. [...] The idea and the image of a 'Führer of the Germans' had therefore already been moulded long before it was fitted to Hitler, and for years existed side by side with the growth of Nazism without it being obvious to the protagonists of the need for 'heroic' leadership that Hitler himself was the leader for whom they had been waiting." (Kershaw, 1987: 13) The shift from volkisch to that of volksgemeinschaft was more complicated. It did not go uncontested and faced resistance both from within the party as well as groups like the left and Catholic church. It is here that Goebbels was able to successfully mount a propaganda campaign as well as bring about a series of changes through changes in policy that eventually saw the majority of Germans acquiescing to the notion. And the study of films provides an interesting mechanism to study the success of the shifting concept. Propaganda and the film industry during the Third Reich The German film industry developed during the period after the First World War. Pre-war existence of German cinema was insignificant and the market was dominated by foreign films. The closing of the German borders, after the war, prompted a growth in the national film industry. (Kracauer, 1947) Films achieved a technical excellence and overall reflected the right wing stance. They celebrated 'heroic' leaders like Frederick the Great and Bismarck, extolled nationalism, condemned socialism but also developed a pseudo-socialist rhetoric. (Petley, 1979) Indeed this was the ideology of the Nazi Party itself. This is not very surprising given the fact that the largest film studio of that time, UFA, was acquired by a Nazi sympathiser and financier. Even before coming to power the Nazi Party understood that film was a powerful propaganda medium but lacked the financial or organisational control of the industry. In October 1932 Joseph Goebbels took control of all Nazi film activities and in March 1933 he was appointed the Reich Minister for Popular Enlightenment and Propaganda which virtually brought under his control all aspects of culture: literature, film, theatre, music, fine arts, the press and the radio. Under his direction the Reichfilmkammer (Reich Film Chamber) began to regulate the financing of films and removed Jews from German cultural life. (Barsam, 1973) Restructuring of the industry In February 1934, the Nazis adopted the Reichlichtspielgesetz (Reich Cinema Law) that mandated compulsory script censorship, restrictions on film criticism, and a stringent rating system for all kinds of films. Films were rated on a scale of their usefulness - the marks of distinction were called Pradikate - with the highest rating awarded to those films that were both 'politically and artistically valuable.' Cinema owners could not refuse to screen a film with the Pradikate stamp if a distributor offered it. Pradikate was really a form of negative tax, the higher the distinction, lower the tax. But it also helped the audience to establish the correct expectations and response. (Welch, 1993) In 1938 Goebbels reorganised the film industry and emphasised on films funded by the state and initiated another reorganisation in 1942 when Goebbels became the supreme authority. From 1943 onwards the central line of Nazi propaganda was conveyed through film: that the Germans would win the war. This policy remained unchanged till their defeat in 1945. (Barsam, 1973; Welch, 1983a) It must be noted here that the reorganising of the industry was not opposed by the industry. Indeed the industry was happy to concede control to the Nazi. The main reason for that is economic. Just before the Nazi party came to power, from 1930 onwards, the film industry was going through severe financial crisis. State sponsorship provided a much-needed lifeline to the struggling industry. In addition, the director of the largest German studio, UFA, was a supporter and a minister in the Reich. He had been a consistent financial supporter of the Party even when it was not in power. It was partly due to him, and partly due to the vision of Goebbels that the industry was never overtly nationalised. However, successive re-organisations brought the industry effectively under the control of the Party, and particularly of the Reich Minister for Popular Enlightenment and Propaganda: Joseph Goebbels; and this control also had financial implications. The profits of the industry now could flow to the state via an intermediary body created to remove from public view the role of the state. (Petley 1979; Welch 1993) Propaganda and films According to Goebbels "propaganda has nothing to do with truth. We serve truth by serving a German victory." However, there was a difference between Hitler and Goebbel with respect to their understanding of propaganda. Hitler felt that the importance of propaganda would decline after the Party came to power, the organisation would replace propaganda. He says in Mein Kampf (Welch, 1983a) "When the propaganda work has converted a whole people to believe in a doctrine, the organisation can turn the result of this into practical effect through the work of a mere handful of men. [...] The better the propaganda has worked, the smaller will the organisation be. The greater the number of followers, so much the smaller can be the number of members." Goebbels disagreed and believed that propaganda would be necessary after coming to power to mobilise mass support and to maintain a "level of enthusiasm and commitment for its ideological foundations." (Welch, 1983a: 42) In emphasising the importance of film as propaganda, Goebbels was influenced by the Soviet example, particularly Battleship Potemkin. While Hitler wanted explicitly political films "Goebbels favoured propaganda films that manipulated people indirectly, using an appeal to "truth" that would reinforce opinions and feelings that people already had. Thus Goebbels preferred feature films that reflected the overall Nazi atmosphere rather than those that proclaimed its ideology." (Barsam, 1973:124) Only a few films of the Nazi era displayed overt propaganda. However, the Nazi films successfully captivated audiences and disseminated political meanings by resonating with the larger social constellation. Films were not isolated experiences in the dark but a structured function of a variety of associations and organisation that locked every individual into a complicated network of apparatus covering every aspect of reality. "The Third Reich constituted the first full-blown media dictatorship, a political order that sought to occupy and administer all sectors of perceptual possibility, to dominate the human subject's every waking and sleeping moment." (Rentschler, 1996:217) It was a cinema dedicated to illusions. Goebbels aimed to create a film world as alluring as Hollywood. But Goebbels also waged a war against Hollywood in order to create and maintain a domestic market. By the beginning of the Second World War the industry had begun to generate huge profits. Recurring themes in Nazi films While propaganda has been used by all countries, especially during war times, the Nazi propaganda films do not address the rational. As the Nazi doctrine was built upon the "essentially irrational doctrines of Aryan racial superiority, adherence to the will of the Führer, and the nationalist expansion, as well as return to "traditional German values." To promote that doctrine, the Nazis used all available means and media." (Barsam, 1973:124) "Public opinion cannot exist in a totalitarian police state, its place is taken by an official image of the world expressed through the media of mass communication. The total impact of Nazi propaganda was to create a picture of reality shaped according to the underlying themes of the movement. Because of the inherent contradictions and the amorphous nature of National Socialist ideology these themes would change from one year to the next." (Welch, 1983a: 95) Still there were a number of key themes that were to recur in Nazi films. Some of them like blut und bloden (blood and soil) and Volk und Heimat (People and homeland) were maintained from the beginning to the end while others like comradeship, heroism, and the party; principles of leadership; war and military image and the image of the enemy were not used continuously but their use was determined by tactical reasons. The following section examines a few films under each of these themes. The section has been compiled from the reading of Welch (1983a), Welch (1993), Furhammar (1971), Leiser, (1974), Petley, (1979) and Rentschler (1996) and finally by viewing a few of the films themselves. Films and themes from that era Comradeship, heroism and the party Altogether three films were made on this specific theme in 1933 and later this theme was never repeated. The recurring motifs in all three are heroic death (of the protagonist), the significance of the Nazi flag and uniform, the treachery of the communists, the need for the destruction of the family for the sake of male comradeship within the party, and the idealisation of the Aryan. Hitlerjunge Quex (Hitler Youth Quex) made in 1933 follows a typical story line common to all three however this film was the most popular. These films were specifically aimed at wooing the working classes who till now had been mistrustful of the Nazi elitisms as well as the youth. While the continuing economic slump of the 1930 made the working class more open to the Nazi promises of a better future, youth of Germany began to be mesmerised by the visible icons of the Nazi pageantry: the disciplined marches, the flag and the uniform, and mostly the aura of Hitler as the saviour. The protagonist, a young, idealist boy represents Hitler and is from a working class family, gets slowly attracted to the SS but is thwarted from joining them by the scheming communists who have a hold over his family. Their leader, bearing a close resemblance to Lenin, is a cold-blooded agitator under the direct control of Moscow, willing to sell his country to the foreigners. When the boy attempts to join the SS, who are wonderfully decent, glorious, disciplined, open and trusting his parent intervene. Fearful of angering the communists the mother commits suicide and nearly kills the son too. He survives and in the hospital, not remorseful of his mother's death, is very happy to be asked to join the party by members of the SS. He leaves his father and goes to live in the hostel but is eventually killed by the villainous communists. His funeral brings the Nazi pageantry out in full force. The film, indeed all the three, helped to sway the working class sympathies towards Nazi party and recruited youth at an incredible numbers. However, after Hitler reached the pinnacles of popularity this theme was never again repeated. Blood and soil The concept of blood and soil attempted to define the source of strength of the master race in terms of peasant virtues: the Nordic past, the warrior hero, and the sacredness of the German soil which could not be confined by artificial boundaries imposed by the Versailles treaty. As an extension of this concept was the notion of Volk und Heimat or 'a people and homeland.' These themes were maintained till the very end and continuously recurred in the films. In 1933 the Party produced a documentary called Blut und Bolden (Blood and soil) subtitled: Foundation of the new Reich. There were two underlying precepts behind this type of film propaganda. The first was to bring the entire nation to a common understanding of its ethnic and political entity and the second was to prepare the nation to accept and rationalise future, and past, invasions and annexations as a justifiable liberation of Germans living abroad. However, the documentary also had a practical side. Farm recovery was crucial to the Reich as business recovery and agricultural recovery was necessary after the recovery of small business. The documentary aims to win over the peasantry by emphasising the value of land and agriculture to Germany and to highlight the particular emphasis given by the National Socialist to their recovery. The documentary served as a blue print for all such films in the future. Many feature films drew inspiration from the documentary and reflected the theme outlined. Some of these are Schimmelreiter (Phantom rider) 1934, Ich fur dich- Du fur mich (I for you - you for me) 1934, Das Madchen vom moorhof (the girl from Marshland farm) 1935, Fahrmann Maria (Ferry boat woman Maria) 1936, Ein Volsfeind (an enemy to the people) 1937, Die reise nach Tilsit (the journey to Tilsit) 1939, Immensee 1943 and Opfergang (sacrifice) 1944. Olympiade made in 1938 is a four-hour documentary on the Olympics. The principle theme of the film arose from the concept of blood and soil and was a grandiloquent celebration of various elements of the Nazi worldview. The concept of health and strength were essential for them. The film can be also seen as an impressive exercise in respectability and propaganda for the regime as during the Olympic games Germany was thrown open to visitors and every effort was taken to ensure that carry back a positive image of Germany. And the film was going to present the notion of beauty of the human body and celebrates the archetype of the Aryan, master race. Directed by Leni Reifenstahl the film is a testimony to technical excellence and cinematic brilliance pursued and achieved during this period. Principles of leadership The rise of the Fuhrer is a critical part of the Nazi ideology. The Fuhrer combines within him two characteristics, first that of a contempt for parliamentary democracy and secondly it builds upon charismatic, heroic leadership, who had the power to realise the community of people. Films however mostly refrained from showing Hitler as his aura, was essentially mystical and nearly religious and visual representation would have only damaged it. The way out for the industry was to focus on heroic figures from history that would represent the heroic leader. The one exception to this was the documentary Triumph des willens (Triumph of the will) 1935 apparently personally commissioned by Hitler against the wishes of Goebbels. Directed by Leni Reifenstahl the documentary presents the Furher as a mystical, charismatic leader. In the opening sequence few lines help to orient the viewer: Twenty years after the outbreak of the First World War, Sixteen years after the beginning of Germany's time of trial, Nineteen months after the beginning of the rebirth of Germany, Adolph Hitler flew to Nuremburg to muster his faithful followers... And then prophetically a plane appears from the clouds and Hitler's plane lands and he steps out in the manner of a modern day messiah. The craftsmanship is superb. Following Hitler's entourage through the city the camera continuously picks on the flag, the people and the Furher, in a repetitive pattern. Every detail of the film builds on the messiahistc appeal, the charismatic leader. The self-identification with the Furher gave the German people a sense of superiority that was denied to others. The Fuhrer cult constituted one of the few consistent aspects of the Nazi ideology and remained a potent force till Hitler's death. The need to identify and obey a strong leader had been one of the most significant factors for the rise and maintenance of National Socialism and Hitler. The Furher was seen to represent the people's will and the cult served to reiterate that historical change comes through the genius of leader and not through Liberalism or Marxism. War and the military image While feature films were continually used to inculcate a mood of euphoria and enthusiasm even when people were facing the miseries of war at this period documentaries and newsreels were also used to demonstrate the invincibility of the German army. Controlled by the ministry newsreels, over time, increasingly became a formalistic, carefully planned artistic transformation of reality. Newsreels screenings was compulsory at every film screening and it was cheaper to hire newer newsreels and hence German people could see latest news, through the doctored newsreels. The advantage of the newsreel was that it offered the advantages of modern communication medium and was topical, periodical and universal. The footage was carefully edited to present 'reality' and by its contrast to the feature films, appeared to be realistic representation of reality. In actuality the helped to prepare the populace for war and during the war kept their enthusiasm high by portraying the German strength and invincibility. The image of the enemy Political propaganda is most effective in times of uncertainty and hatred generally its most fruitful aid. To maintain sacrifice and conviction visible enemies are necessary who are responsible for all the wrongs. And cinema has contributed to this phenomenon by building stereotypes, as stereotyping is essential to the use of Nazi anti-symbols and the portrayal of the enemy in Nazi propaganda. Initially the Nazi targeted the communists as public enemy. Films that portrayed them as evil, scheming, dishonest, power hungry, manipulative and puppets of foreign governments were made and indeed enjoyed a modicum of commercial success. Later the attempt was to present the Bolsheviks as an international conspiracy of the Jews. Perhaps the most important element of the Nazi worldview was the myth of the Jewish conspiracy. In building on an anti-Semitic sentiment the propaganda was actually consolidating feelings that existed in the German life and thought for over a century. When Hitler came to power he needed Jews as a permanent scapegoat. According to him the war was less a struggle amongst nations than a racial war to the finish between Aryan and Jew. Films were prepared along with a full-scale media campaign that would alert people to the dangers of Jewry and rationalise the measure necessary for the genocide that was to follow. The strategy of Goebbel's was the same that he used to promote in 1933 the notions of comradeship, heroism and the party. In 1940 three films were shown consecutively, each dealing with different aspects of international Jewry. These were Der Rothchilds, Jud Suss (Jew Suss) and Der ewige Jude (the eternal Jew). In Jew Suss Leon Feuchtwanger's novel that portrays Jews as the eternal scapegoat is turned to give a different historical meaning. Suss a lawyer, but a Jew in disguise infiltrates the Duchy of Wurttemberg and gains acceptance to the power circle of the Duke, brutally rapes a Christian woman, conspires to throw the city open to thousands of Jews who arrive to the disgust of the Germans and plans to create the 'Promised Land' at Wurttemberg. He is arrested and condemned to death and as the Duke dies his last saviour is gone. In the final climactic scene he is hanged. Before the release of the film critics were instructed that they should interpret the film on the lines that once Jews like Suss gained responsible position they exploited power not for the good of the community but for their own radical ends. With the exception of Suss the Jews are dirty, ft, hook nosed and repellent. In contrast are the true Nordic features. The last scene of Jew Suss hanging from the noose conveyed Goebbel's message: that of the Nazi's answer to the historical Jewish menace. The film was a resounding success partly due to extremely high quality of production and acting. The film contributed to the radical anti-Semitism that already existed in Germany and paved the way for the evacuation of the Jews. Not only did the film successfully use themes and archetypes to create the desired antipathy towards Jews but it did so under the guise of entertainment that resulted in a great box-office success. Conclusion The film industry played a major role in extending the Nazi ideology to the masses and ensuring that citizens learnt the correct ways to conduct themselves. Goebbels carefully created propaganda so that it was insidious rather than overt. As long as people came to the cinemas of their free will, propaganda could be couched in entertainment. Other than the war newsreels the dependence was more on fiction films than on objective documentaries to achieve their goal. The themes, however, that recur in Nazi cinema are central to the Nazi worldview and ideology and could not only find a resonance in people but perhaps could also influence them. National Socialism was characterised by charismatic leadership, nationalism, anti-Marxism, anti-Semitism, stress on the community, emphasis on violence and force and finally an appeal for national unity. These themes were to continuously recur in Nazi films. However, they were not used overtly but through the use of narratives that created illusions rather than repulsions. In order to ensure that films reflected the Nazi ideology the industry itself was reorganised. First a cleansing process removed Jews and the undesirables working in the industry. Film criticism was severely controlled and the industry was kept sympathetic through a combination of strict censorship, awarding of distinction marks related to tax benefits and finally through financial resources. The technical excellence that some of these films achieved, was truly remarkable. Not only did filmmakers like Leni Reifenstahl create films that were artistically excellent, even the technical height she reached were truly amazing. Her use of the camera in Olympia to capture divers in a continuous motion from the jump to underwater continues to be used till date. As does her techniques of photography and editing. Contrary to the expectations of scholars (for e.g. Leiser, Welch) who wrote the obituary of Nazi films that the reason they continue to be in existence can perhaps be attributed to the technical excellence of thse films. In addition, Goebbels tactics of insidious propaganda seems to have convinced a great number of people of the viability of this nature of propaganda. That feature films can be used to insidiously extend and strengthen a worldview that is not built on rationality but on a few undemocratic principles seems truly a wonder. It stands to reason that if films can be used to opiate the masses then perhaps more costly alternatives can be avoided. Of course, few other factors are necessary to reach that goal. However, the Nazi cinema and its possible impact do demonstrate the ability of films to extend ruling class hegemony. And perhaps in that too lies their continual appeal for "if Nazi horror continues to repulse, the shapes of fascism continue to fascinate." (Rentschler, 1996: 6) In a final ironic come-around, the New German Cinema that began by rejecting Nazi films have begun a process of rapprochement with their past. The gaze back is kinder and gentler. "Nazi media culture demonstrated just how potent and destructive the power of fascination and fantasy can be especially when systematically appropriated by a modern state and strategically implemented by advanced technology. A nation faced with hardship and spiritual void hailed Hitler's promise of a better life while shunning enlightened rhetoric. [...] The National Socialist state's production of death and devastation would not have been possible without Goebbel's dream machinery." (Rentschler, 1996: 223) Bibliography Baird, J. W. (1974) The mythical world of Nazi war propaganda, 1939-1945. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota press. Barsam, R. M. (1973) Nonfiction film: a critical history. Indianapolis: Indiana university press. Bordwell, D. (1985) Narration in the fiction film. London: Methuen. Brownlow, K. Leni Reifenstahl, Film 47. Furhammar, L. and Isaksson, F. (1971) Politics and film. London: Studio vista. Kershaw, I. (1987) The 'Hitler Myth': Image and reality in the Third Reich. Oxford: Oxford university press. Kracauer, S. (1947) From Caligari to Hitler: A psychological history of the German film. New Jersey: Princeton university press. Leiser, E. (1974) Nazi cinema. London: Secker & Warburg. Petley, J. (1979) Capital and culture: German cinema 1933-45. London: British film institute. Rentschler, E. (1996) The ministry of illusion: Nazi cinema and its afterlife. Cambridge: Harvard university press. Sieglohr, U. (2000) New German cinema in John Hill and Pamela C. Gibson, (eds) World cinema: critical approaches, Oxford: Oxford university press, pp 82-86. Turner, G. (1988) Film as social practice. London: Routledge. Welch, D. (1983a) Propaganda and the German cinema 1933-1945. Oxford: Oxford university press. Welch, D. (1983b) (ed) Nazi propaganda: the power and the limitations. London: Croom Helm. Welch, D. (1993) The Third Reich; politics and propaganda. London: Routledge. Wenders, W (1977) That's entertainment: Hitler in Eric Rentschler (ed.) West German film makers on film: visions and voices, London: Homes & Meyer. From rana at ranadasgupta.com Sat Sep 8 16:13:10 2007 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:13:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] *****India should claim IPR over 0 and Indians have every right to do and regain its assets******* In-Reply-To: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E27CBE.3000806@ranadasgupta.com> I was horrified to learn this: >From Alexander to Britishers every body attacked the Nation, looted and >wreck-aged. Some with weapons some with divide and rule policy, >polluted the minds of people,blood and jeans as well. Now then. Polluting minds is one thing, but corrupting their jeans? Bast**ds. I wondered: Are there any images of pre-Alexandrine Indian jeans, that could help us at least have an idea of what they looked like before all this pollution? I bet in Harappa everyone wore Diesel. None of this Levis s**t. (Sorry. Such a cheap mail. Think the Reader-List is really frying my brain.) Keep writing, Dhatri. You're better than all the rest. From abhishek.hazra at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 16:27:25 2007 From: abhishek.hazra at gmail.com (Abhishek Hazra) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:27:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] *****India should claim IPR over 0 and Indians have every right to do and regain its assets******* In-Reply-To: <46E27CBE.3000806@ranadasgupta.com> References: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <46E27CBE.3000806@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: <6deae8300709080357v42c18041gd71e10307695eff6@mail.gmail.com> of course it has to be Diesel. doesn't Levis teach us to prefer the raw over the cooked? how horrible. On 9/8/07, Rana Dasgupta wrote: > I was horrified to learn this: > > >From Alexander to Britishers every body attacked the Nation, looted and > >wreck-aged. Some with weapons some with divide and rule policy, > >polluted the minds of people,blood and jeans as well. > > Now then. > > Polluting minds is one thing, but corrupting their jeans? > > Bast**ds. > > I wondered: > > Are there any images of pre-Alexandrine Indian jeans, that could help us > at least have an idea of what they looked like before all this pollution? > > I bet in Harappa everyone wore Diesel. None of this Levis s**t. > > (Sorry. Such a cheap mail. Think the Reader-List is really frying my > brain.) > > Keep writing, Dhatri. You're better than all the rest. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - does the frog know it has a latin name? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From rana at ranadasgupta.com Sat Sep 8 17:00:57 2007 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 17:00:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <6deae8300709080357v42c18041gd71e10307695eff6@mail.gmail.com> References: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <46E27CBE.3000806@ranadasgupta.com> <6deae8300709080357v42c18041gd71e10307695eff6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> It's been an interesting few weeks on this list. Some might say "We've never had it so good" - since there have been far more posts, with far more responses, than usual. Others might feel that this has been the Reader-list's lowest ever point - its usual solemn tone and good opinions giving way to a running sit-com of ad feminam assaults. Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the enormous gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to say I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. People have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from violent attacks. It seems that there's a sense that one can't say just anything. Or if one did, it would erode the fabric of the list. People have to balance their own irritation or repugnance with a desire to uphold the hospitality and vitality of the list. I think this says something very positive about the culture of a list. From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 17:04:02 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 04:34:02 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] *****India should claim IPR over 0 and Indians have every right to do and regain its assets******* In-Reply-To: <6deae8300709080357v42c18041gd71e10307695eff6@mail.gmail.com> References: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <46E27CBE.3000806@ranadasgupta.com> <6deae8300709080357v42c18041gd71e10307695eff6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709080434x3f9a1543pffd691f46f63896f@mail.gmail.com> harrappa jeans, moen jo daro ajraks and bheel dancing girl, isnt that pakistan? that label on the greek buddha said gandhara. no no not gandhara nissan. > On 9/8/07, Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > I was horrified to learn this: > > > I bet in Harappa everyone wore Diesel. From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 17:11:53 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 04:41:53 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> References: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <46E27CBE.3000806@ranadasgupta.com> <6deae8300709080357v42c18041gd71e10307695eff6@mail.gmail.com> <46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709080441u5f72543bka1ca871db44e19bf@mail.gmail.com> $^#@^#^% %$********** (*^&^&()***^(^&%^$^************^&^&^%^*%&#%&&%******************* **************&*((%^*&#$^#$^$%******** *******&*(&*(^(****************%#$^@#$^@@#$^@#$&*************** *************************** ******#@#$^#$$&***************$$#@$^*)^_)^($# %R888$%$%$%$&*54#$&#$^*******************************************34346 *********************%^%$#$@#$^@*!@!@$!@#%!@#%*@#!@#%@#%* @#$!@#%@^#@#$^@^***************@#%!@*23234*!@#$@#%!*@%#@#% ******************@#$^@#$^*******@#%^@#^***@#%@#%************##$***** ******************************************************^%************** %$#@$**** &$#@ On 9/8/07, Rana Dasgupta wrote: > It's been an interesting few weeks on this list. Some might say "We've > never had it so good" - since there have been far more posts, with far > more responses, than usual. > > Others might feel that this has been the Reader-list's lowest ever point > - its usual solemn tone and good opinions giving way to a running > sit-com of ad feminam assaults. > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the enormous > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to say > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. People > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from > violent attacks. > > It seems that there's a sense that one can't say just anything. Or if > one did, it would erode the fabric of the list. People have to balance > their own irritation or repugnance with a desire to uphold the > hospitality and vitality of the list. > > I think this says something very positive about the culture of a list. > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Sat Sep 8 17:52:11 2007 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 17:22:11 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> References: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <46E27CBE.3000806@ranadasgupta.com> <6deae8300709080357v42c18041gd71e10307695eff6@mail.gmail.com> <46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: Thanks Rana for beginning a reflective thread. This is probably a rare instance in the list, when a big "event" is not the center of discussion. List usually does well with "big events", as it ensures, that many drop in a few lines about what they feel, or what they oppose or what can be done etc. A kind of public positioning. (Beslan was an exception) But in this instance it was about our ordinary ideas of how we think our belonging, our social practices and ways of being with others. Unfortunately it became too narrowly 'indo-centric" and thinking about suffering became rhetorical. If this list can produce some serious thought on "suffering" and "being with others' - and how we deal with it in our ordinary life, it may contribute to our intellectual life in a substantial way. For me, the last few weeks have made me wonder, as to how far a thought can travel if it gets tied to polemics and self-righteous indignation. The loads of personal and historical material that has come to this list in this weeks is amazing, and i hope that those survive and does not get buried in the after taste of polemics and condemnation. Will think about your point on disgust. warmly jeebesh On 08-Sep-07, at 4:30 PM, Rana Dasgupta wrote: > It's been an interesting few weeks on this list. Some might say > "We've > never had it so good" - since there have been far more posts, with far > more responses, than usual. > > Others might feel that this has been the Reader-list's lowest ever > point > - its usual solemn tone and good opinions giving way to a running > sit-com of ad feminam assaults. > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the enormous > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to say > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. People > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from > violent attacks. > > It seems that there's a sense that one can't say just anything. Or if > one did, it would erode the fabric of the list. People have to > balance > their own irritation or repugnance with a desire to uphold the > hospitality and vitality of the list. > > I think this says something very positive about the culture of a list. > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 17:44:27 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 17:44:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Of ingrates and hypocrites In-Reply-To: <47e122a70709060807v69710188y2ea2c29c4935d36e@mail.gmail.com> References: <92298.8349.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <692033.10904.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70709060807v69710188y2ea2c29c4935d36e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70709080514s41c37d13q317bcfebe4ae816c@mail.gmail.com> On 9/6/07, inder salim wrote: > Dear Kshmendra > > I hope, u have seen the Image in 6/09 ToI today: Men hanging by the > noose in public domain. Dear Kshmendra ji, is this the Nation which > you are talking about? Whether this happens inside the prison or > outside, the meaning is the same: death to its subjects. The choice > to execute them so crudely suggests one thing that the Nation can > reveal its barbaric face at a very short notice. We have witnessed it > time and again, here as well. > > Because of your provocative definition on Nation Sate, I write, but > soon I might go some where, as usual, perhaps to escape, from the > idea of Nation itself, as it is brimming with people like you. You > certainly need not worry. But I hope that u feel that I am talking to > you, all the time. > > I quote from a latest response in the List by Mr. Mohd. Junaid " > The point is power. The kings, of whichever creed, have only > occasionally been driven by their faith. The most important thing for > them was to retain, boost and legitimize their power and authority…. > It is unfortunate that we have to defend kings and rulers here, and > not their subjects against them, but the nature of the discussion > forces us to do so". > > The problem with you Mr. Kshmendra is that you are from an obsolete > school of thought even about Nation State, let alone Contemporary Art. > Now for example, this: > > I remember, in one of your mails, you mentioned about the 'lifted > footage' in Sanjay Kak's film. The argument that it is someone else's > frame ( of mind ) was once thought to be of some importance, but now > it amounts to naiveté. I am not writing it only about you, but in > general. There are quite a number of people who think so, unwittingly > at times. The question is about appropriation of a concept or art > form, but when the issue is pain, nothing really matters, that is my > schooling. > > On seeing Abu Gharib Prison torture images, the noted writer Susan > Sontag declared " These photographs are us". Andhy Warhol used the > images 'found'. The all time great Marcel Duchamp gave it life and > name " ready-mades ". In essence, if I communicate, there is nothing > called ' original in art' these days. The reasons are many. Here, > I stress, the word ' communicate'. T.S.Eliot once suggested that a > Poem communicates itself first, and then it is understood. But we try > to understand first and then let a poem, a film, a painting, a > photograph, a documentary to communicate. Noted Urdu writer and > critic, Mr. Gopi Chand Narang suggested that there are thousands of > books on Iqbal and Islam, but in fact one or two books on his poetry. > You know, what I am talking about. > > There is an old Greek Quote, which says, that there is nothing new > under the sun. By that account, whatever we are writing, thinking or > even feeling is not ours, but inherited, so a direct loss of > existence. By how do we recover and restore our respective existential > beings within our specificities is the point that interests me. As I > suggested in my earlier post that I am interested in God of Small > Things, and not in the so called overwhelming Nation State Gods. Now > that is really a shift, from a King to a Subject. All you need to know > is that where your Camera is. If it is closer to the King then of > course the subject will look smaller in perspective, but if it is > shifted, then the King is inevitably pushed to the perspective, of > history. We need to re-read the history for this purpose. Literally, > that has happened in a country like Nepal, metaphorically it has > happened in other areas as well. All we need to do is to push the > camera to focus its subjects and not the Nation State. Now there are > tricky ways to focus the Camera, it can sabotage the cause, simply by > rendering the Subject to a Mask. That is what clever men in disguise > do. That is how politicians play with the camera, and know skills to > play this this theatre. But I am interested in the radical face of > theatre, of art, of poem, or a photograph and of documentary. > > If your idea of Nation state comes from 1947- India, then even it > can not afford to turn blind eye to the atrocities of Nation state to > its own subjects. Whether, it is Kashmir, North East, or any other > part of India, all we know is that the police and politicians are hand > in glove, and the Judiciary is lackadaisical, and the super Babus > simply know the art of ruling its subjects in the name of free India. > And even if you talk about heroes like Shaeed Bhagat Singh, still your > idea of Nation State is terribly handicapped against the ideal of > Nation State that sought to end the British Rule. > > To celebrate the Indian winning a cricket match against the British > is one thing, but to turn that celebration against the other who don't > want to celebrate, or even against those who prefer to celebrate the > British winning in India or wherever. Now how come, we impose our > choices on others. How do we know, who celebrates, what, when and > how? Now, if you are talking about Kashmir, now just tell me how can > you compel some one to dance without the inner will to move even. Any > cricket match between India and Pakistan was indeed a dividing line > between the two. That is that, but that does not define the Nation > state, particularly when it comes to history of Kashmir and its > politics. Then , you know now, why, in Kashmir after 1990, its > subjects like to see India-not-winning against any Cricketing Nation, > earlier it was Pakistan only. > > The Nation State should understand its subjects, from all > perspectives, and India has miserably failed in Kashmir. You will > agree, despite the fact that Kashmir is not clear about the mess it is > in, as you pointed to Mr. Qalab in yor response to his frank and forth > letter. Kashmir issue is/was about ethics and not about language, > region, mirpuris, pandits, dogras or ladhakhis etc.. something > terrible happened in 1947.... and it contiunes to happen. > Anglo-American policies to contain the third world countries is now > their art and craft....we unwittingly pick up the language, and > impose.... > > With regards and love > Inder salim > > > > > > On 9/6/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Qalab > > > > You have called me a brother. You are my brother too Sir. Kashmiri brother and not Muslim or Pandit or whatever. > > > > The "ingrates and hypocrites" comment had a context from earlier communications. It referred to "some" Indians and not specifically to any religion or region or ethnicity. > > > > If you want to be specific, then the generalisation "Muslims are anti-national and communal" is not my refrain. "Islam & Muslims" is as much a part of India as any other grouping. The "anti-national and communal" can be of any religion, region, ethnicity. > > > > You have picked on the word "Nation" and made your comments and statements. Please tell me, if you would like to, what is the "Kashmir Nation" you refer to. > > > > - is it of the people of Kashmir Valley alone? > > - is it of linguistically and ethnically Kashmiris alone? > > - is it those and in addition the Dogras, Ladakhis, Gojars, Baltis, Gilgitis, Muzaffarabadis & Mirpuris (both Saraiki and Punjabi speaking) etc? > > - how is the "Kashmir Nation" defined? > > - at what point of time from the past does it pick up the "Kashmir Nation" identity and why is that point chosen? > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > Rebellious Koshur wrote: > > Kshmendra Kaul, > > > > Blood, sweat and tears are used to make a Company also. India continues the legacy of East India Company. They too worked very hard those days to consolidate the British Indian Empire. In today's world all States are big companies and not Nations as such. > > > > India is a company which is retaining all what it has grabbed, purchased, occupied and secured through inheritance. I am talking about State of India and not the Nation. I hope you know the difference. > > > > Kashmir is nation and India is a state. My dear Kashmiri Pandit brothers you have deceived your own nation Kashmir time and again and yet you blame Muslims for being anti-national and communal. How pathetic… Your communal leaning towards Indian state has made you blind and you have forgotten your ROOTS. > > > > For Resistance, > > > > Qalab Hussain > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: INTERESTING PARALLEL: > > > > It takes years to make a Nation. It takes the blood, sweat and tears of many to build it and try and keep it secure. > > > > Yet, you will find in the Nation some who feed off it but are intent on attacking it and supporting those who want to break-up the Nation. These are the enemy within. > > > > These self-centered and self-obsessed ingrates will pontificate over the need to protect the integrity of a Virtual Nation ("intellectual community") they might have help build, but they will not hesitate to undermine the Nation that allows the "reality" of their existence to be functional. > > > > Kshmendra Kaul. > > > > > > Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > > This is a list for discussion. Personal queries to individuals may be > > please not asked through the list. > > > > It takes years to build and make an intellectual community. It takes > > a few days to destroy it. > > > > Please treat the subscribers with some respect. > > > > warmly > > jeebesh > > > > On 04-Sep-07, at 11:48 AM, we wi wrote: > > > > > Hi Vedavati, > > > > > > You Did not answered my 2nd question on caste and > > > marriages in INDIA. Anyway may I know what your husband do? Can I > > > have his email address please? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Building a website is a piece of cake. > > > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. > > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > --------------------------------- > > Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now... > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 18:02:30 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 18:02:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house In-Reply-To: <47e122a70709080532p6ed1d3d5xba61663b25b8d2fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <0475cec9a62302a2cae0eb1cefee161b@mail.xtdnet.nl> <47e122a70709080532p6ed1d3d5xba61663b25b8d2fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70709080532tc236d9an94678cdfe12538e9@mail.gmail.com> On 9/8/07, inder salim wrote: > Guests in Vedavati's house.... having seen > this subject matter many many times in my mail box now...... > i am freely mixing it with some other guests in other complexes.... > > For example, A big bunch of guests continue to occupy our Parliament > House, they go after five years and come back with other names... and > never actually leave the house.... > > Once Mahesh Bhat introduced a Police Commissioner to his guru > U.Krishnamurti... and informed him that this cop is responsble for the > surrender of more than 500 dacoits in Chambal Valley.... his guru > instanly replied but more than 500 odd dacoits ( MPs) are still > occupying the Parliament House...who will make them surrender ? > > to this ARKP and their like minded friends might reflect.... and see > the Parliament attack in a different light than it is projected....and > if there is some truth in U.Krishnamurti's observation then the > perception against people who attacked the parliament too can > change... > > with love > inder salim > > > > > > On 9/7/07, zainab wrote: > > Dear Vedavati, > > > > Can you please claridy further how Muslims caused riots after Babri Masjid > > was pulled down? I am trifle surprised, but would like to know why you say > > Muslims perpetrated riots after Babri demolition? > > By the way, my family experienced violence at the hands of a 'Hindu mob' > > during the riots in Mumbai. Now I wonder whether they were Muslim converts? > > > > Zainab > > > > On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:53:16 +0000, Vedavati Jogi > > wrote: > > > > > > yes, kshemendra, my mails are being blocked by sarai and i am not > > > surprised because this is the real nature of secularism practiced in > > > india. > > > > > > this secularism will lead to disaster i am sure. > > > > > > few decades back britishers encouraged muslim separatism which ultimately > > > resulted into partition. today same great job is being done by > > > psudosecularists and i will not be surprised if one day muslims again > > > start giving same slogan 'islam khatareme hai' leading the nation to many > > > more partitions. > > > > > > 'gujrat' is a 'shame' but 'kashmir' is not! > > > when one babri was pulled down then so many riots (initiated by muslims) > > > took place more over their acts were justified by psudosecularists > > > but many temples were pulled down in kashmir ...spineless hindus did not > > > feel bad and ofcourse psudo secularists kept their mouths shut. > > > > > > list is very big. this is secularism. if you feel what i have written is > > > not wrong please distribute it. > > > > > > thanks > > > vj > > > > > > > > > From: vrjogi at hotmail.comTo: tapasrayx at gmail.com; > > > reader-list at sarai.netSubject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in > > > Vedavati's houseDate: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:21:04 +0000 > > > > > > > > > no i am not suffering from any mental problem, i only tell the truth > > which > > > psudo secularists can not digest. vedavati > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 > > > 13:02:38 +0530> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > > > > Please do not forward anything to me in future. I do not appreciate it.> > > > > > > For your information, I have already received from Reader-list the mail > > > > you claim was blocked and have forwarded to me offlist.> > I suspect you > > > may be suffering from some type of delusion or paranoia.> > TR> > > > > > Vedavati Jogi wrote:> > i have no alternative but to forward this mail to > > > all of you > > individually as readers list people don't dare to publish > > > my mail.> > i request all of you to please read this correspondance. > > views > > > expressed > > by people like roger are posing real threat to this > > country' > > > unity.> > > > vedavati> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > >> From: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > To: rgdj12 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> > > >> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] FW: FW: Guests in Vedavati's house> > Date: > > > Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:55:48 +0000> > > > pakistan is an enemy so i don't > > > blame them as they are doing what an> > enemy is supposed to do. i am > > > talking against psudoseculars like> > you. nobody has blocked minority > > > advancement in india otherwise> > shahruhk, irfan pathan, zakir hussin, > > > javed akhtar would not have > > > > > > Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here! > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! > > > http://get.live.com/en-ie/messenger/overview > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 18:52:24 2007 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 18:52:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: References: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <46E27CBE.3000806@ranadasgupta.com> <6deae8300709080357v42c18041gd71e10307695eff6@mail.gmail.com> <46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: Thanks Rana and Jeebesh...I have suffered some bewilderment too in dealing with this, er, deluge, if I may call it so. I have had the urge to point people to arguments rather than positions but have refrained from doing so for fearing that it would be ineffective. I have seen others trying to widen the ambit of the debate, unsuccessfully. I admit to a certain sense of helplessness too. On the other hand, there is also the sense of occasional vouyerism-I could not help but take peeks, from time to time, to check the depths being plumbed. Particularly by those who should have known better. Dignified silences--maintain them as we might, in turning away from the cacophony we do end up surrendering to the mob(s). Is there another way out? On 08/09/07, Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > Thanks Rana for beginning a reflective thread. > > This is probably a rare instance in the list, when a big "event" is > not the center of discussion. List usually does well with "big > events", as it ensures, that many drop in a few lines about what they > feel, or what they oppose or what can be done etc. A kind of public > positioning. (Beslan was an exception) > > But in this instance it was about our ordinary ideas of how we think > our belonging, our social practices and ways of being with others. > Unfortunately it became too narrowly 'indo-centric" and thinking > about suffering became rhetorical. If this list can produce some > serious thought on "suffering" and "being with others' - and how we > deal with it in our ordinary life, it may contribute to our > intellectual life in a substantial way. > > For me, the last few weeks have made me wonder, as to how far a > thought can travel if it gets tied to polemics and self-righteous > indignation. The loads of personal and historical material that has > come to this list in this weeks is amazing, and i hope that those > survive and does not get buried in the after taste of polemics and > condemnation. > > Will think about your point on disgust. > > warmly > jeebesh > > On 08-Sep-07, at 4:30 PM, Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > It's been an interesting few weeks on this list. Some might say > > "We've > > never had it so good" - since there have been far more posts, with far > > more responses, than usual. > > > > Others might feel that this has been the Reader-list's lowest ever > > point > > - its usual solemn tone and good opinions giving way to a running > > sit-com of ad feminam assaults. > > > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the enormous > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to say > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. People > > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from > > violent attacks. > > > > It seems that there's a sense that one can't say just anything. Or if > > one did, it would erode the fabric of the list. People have to > > balance > > their own irritation or repugnance with a desire to uphold the > > hospitality and vitality of the list. > > > > I think this says something very positive about the culture of a list. > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From theunderscoredhood at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 19:01:13 2007 From: theunderscoredhood at gmail.com (Raheema Begum) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 19:01:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Cyber-moholla not forgotten Message-ID: Dear all, This is just to say. I love you all. I may rant and rave and I will continue to do so. In the hope of finding, compatriots, for any and all causes, Raheema. -- http://www.raahi.wordpress.com http://www.whosebody.wordpress.com ---------------------------------------------------- 'On the just and unjust alike it doth rain... The quality of mercy is not strained...' From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 21:17:19 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 08:47:19 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] yoginder's dispatches Message-ID: <5af37bb0709080847l4b9ab83eoc6b9cb94600e45cb@mail.gmail.com> dear yogi it is a pleasure to read your dispatches on the religious muslim scene. do you have any conceptual / analytic / framework / cumulative / historical kind of pieces that perhaps you have already posted and could point to, which would help in making more sense of an overall picture. thanks. best yasir From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 9 00:50:07 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 12:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Of mocking and an "intellectual community" Message-ID: <232613.94171.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> It appears that for some in this "intellectual community", it is an "intellectual" accomplishment to make fun of someone's lack of familiarity with and skill at the English language. Kshmendra Kaul --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 02:52:25 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (Taraprakash) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 17:22:25 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults References: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <46E27CBE.3000806@ranadasgupta.com><6deae8300709080357v42c18041gd71e10307695eff6@mail.gmail.com><46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: <008201c7f25e$5d7a6b20$14fdbd48@Shabori> Thinking about the suffering, is something I never found on this list. Politics on the suffering, however, is not that unusual. Those who have no voice, no substantial vote bank, no political clout are not part of discussions on this list. With due respect to Kashmiri pandits, a good for nothing movie that lead to a good for nothing long debate, whether giving muslims minority status is benefitial to them, whether a particular sect of Islam is worht following or not, complaints that the list is turning indocentric and myriad other sufferings, do we care that more than 200 people died out of starvation in Orisa last week alone? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeebesh Bagchi" To: Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults > Thanks Rana for beginning a reflective thread. > > This is probably a rare instance in the list, when a big "event" is > not the center of discussion. List usually does well with "big > events", as it ensures, that many drop in a few lines about what they > feel, or what they oppose or what can be done etc. A kind of public > positioning. (Beslan was an exception) > > But in this instance it was about our ordinary ideas of how we think > our belonging, our social practices and ways of being with others. > Unfortunately it became too narrowly 'indo-centric" and thinking > about suffering became rhetorical. If this list can produce some > serious thought on "suffering" and "being with others' - and how we > deal with it in our ordinary life, it may contribute to our > intellectual life in a substantial way. > > For me, the last few weeks have made me wonder, as to how far a > thought can travel if it gets tied to polemics and self-righteous > indignation. The loads of personal and historical material that has > come to this list in this weeks is amazing, and i hope that those > survive and does not get buried in the after taste of polemics and > condemnation. > > Will think about your point on disgust. > > warmly > jeebesh > > On 08-Sep-07, at 4:30 PM, Rana Dasgupta wrote: > >> It's been an interesting few weeks on this list. Some might say >> "We've >> never had it so good" - since there have been far more posts, with far >> more responses, than usual. >> >> Others might feel that this has been the Reader-list's lowest ever >> point >> - its usual solemn tone and good opinions giving way to a running >> sit-com of ad feminam assaults. >> >> Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the enormous >> gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to say >> I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. People >> have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from >> violent attacks. >> >> It seems that there's a sense that one can't say just anything. Or if >> one did, it would erode the fabric of the list. People have to >> balance >> their own irritation or repugnance with a desire to uphold the >> hospitality and vitality of the list. >> >> I think this says something very positive about the culture of a list. >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From gyaltsenlama at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 10:16:18 2007 From: gyaltsenlama at gmail.com (e lama) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 10:16:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shaman in the city -- independent fellowship postings Message-ID: <9943513f0709082146n6cf5ba1cyf3faac64b52dc1e4@mail.gmail.com> Shamanism has been practised among communities all over the world for millennia, and continues to survive today in both modern and traditional forms. During its long evolution, it has migrated from Siberia, Aboriginal Australia, Northern Europe and South America to become a core part of western New Age and rave culture as well as popular mythology. Its place within modernity is at once familiar and alien, exemplary and uneasy ---- Graham Harvey hi all this is my second posting. i know its kinda late and i do apologise. i have put up the research material and a few pages of the graphic novel on my site. you can visit it here www.etattoo7.com/sarai/home.html my research is about the shamans that live in gangtok city. a study of the shaman status with the changing cultures and modernisation. i follow four shamans, interview them at various stages and video the interview, some transcriptions of the interviews can be found on the above link. the final product is intended to be a graphic novel and some layouts can also be viewed at the above link. so please visit. comments, suggestions welcome. again sorry for delay cheers gyaltsen From tbd.lists at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 11:17:51 2007 From: tbd.lists at gmail.com (Dinesh, Servelots) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:17:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> References: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <46E27CBE.3000806@ranadasgupta.com> <6deae8300709080357v42c18041gd71e10307695eff6@mail.gmail.com> <46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: <4573cd0e0709082247x6c78a339oe6c9aa8d9ac38dff@mail.gmail.com> Interestingly, I saw this on another list today. Maybe this will provide a perspective on why some are silent :) d http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/03/AR2007090300933_pf.html Persistence of Myths Could Alter Public Policy Approach By Shankar Vedantam Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, September 4, 2007; A03 The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recently issued a flier to combat myths about the flu vaccine. It recited various commonly held views and labeled them either "true" or "false." Among those identified as false were statements such as "The side effects are worse than the flu" and "Only older people need flu vaccine." When University of Michigan social psychologist Norbert Schwarz had volunteers read the CDC flier, however, he found that within 30 minutes, older people misremembered 28 percent of the false statements as true. Three days later, they remembered 40 percent of the myths as factual. Younger people did better at first, but three days later they made as many errors as older people did after 30 minutes. Most troubling was that people of all ages now felt that the source of their false beliefs was the respected CDC. The psychological insights yielded by the research, which has been confirmed in a number of peer-reviewed laboratory experiments, have broad implications for public policy. The conventional response to myths and urban legends is to counter bad information with accurate information. But the new psychological studies show that denials and clarifications, for all their intuitive appeal, can paradoxically contribute to the resiliency of popular myths. This phenomenon may help explain why large numbers of Americans incorrectly think that Saddam Hussein was directly involved in planning the Sept 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, and that most of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Iraqi. While these beliefs likely arose because Bush administration officials have repeatedly tried to connect Iraq with Sept. 11, the experiments suggest that intelligence reports and other efforts to debunk this account may in fact help keep it alive. Similarly, many in the Arab world are convinced that the destruction of the World Trade Center on Sept. 11 was not the work of Arab terrorists but was a controlled demolition; that 4,000 Jews working there had been warned to stay home that day; and that the Pentagon was struck by a missile rather than a plane. Those notions remain widespread even though the federal government now runs Web sites in seven languages to challenge them. Karen Hughes, who runs the Bush administration's campaign to win hearts and minds in the fight against terrorism, recently painted a glowing report of the "digital outreach" teams working to counter misinformation and myths by challenging those ideas on Arabic blogs. A report last year by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, however, found that the number of Muslims worldwide who do not believe that Arabs carried out the Sept. 11 attacks is soaring -- to 59 percent of Turks and Egyptians, 65 percent of Indonesians, 53 percent of Jordanians, 41 percent of Pakistanis and even 56 percent of British Muslims. Research on the difficulty of debunking myths has not been specifically tested on beliefs about Sept. 11 conspiracies or the Iraq war. But because the experiments illuminate basic properties of the human mind, psychologists such as Schwarz say the same phenomenon is probably implicated in the spread and persistence of a variety of political and social myths. The research does not absolve those who are responsible for promoting myths in the first place. What the psychological studies highlight, however, is the potential paradox in trying to fight bad information with good information. Schwarz's study was published this year in the journal Advances in Experimental Social Psychology, but the roots of the research go back decades. As early as 1945, psychologists Floyd Allport and Milton Lepkin found that the more often people heard false wartime rumors, the more likely they were to believe them. The research is painting a broad new understanding of how the mind works. Contrary to the conventional notion that people absorb information in a deliberate manner, the studies show that the brain uses subconscious "rules of thumb" that can bias it into thinking that false information is true. Clever manipulators can take advantage of this tendency. The experiments also highlight the difference between asking people whether they still believe a falsehood immediately after giving them the correct information, and asking them a few days later. Long-term memories matter most in public health campaigns or political ones, and they are the most susceptible to the bias of thinking that well-recalled false information is true. The experiments do not show that denials are completely useless; if that were true, everyone would believe the myths. But the mind's bias does affect many people, especially those who want to believe the myth for their own reasons, or those who are only peripherally interested and are less likely to invest the time and effort needed to firmly grasp the facts. The research also highlights the disturbing reality that once an idea has been implanted in people's minds, it can be difficult to dislodge. Denials inherently require repeating the bad information, which may be one reason they can paradoxically reinforce it. Indeed, repetition seems to be a key culprit. Things that are repeated often become more accessible in memory, and one of the brain's subconscious rules of thumb is that easily recalled things are true. Many easily remembered things, in fact, such as one's birthday or a pet's name, are indeed true. But someone trying to manipulate public opinion can take advantage of this aspect of brain functioning. In politics and elsewhere, this means that whoever makes the first assertion about something has a large advantage over everyone who denies it later. Furthermore, a new experiment by Kimberlee Weaver at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and others shows that hearing the same thing over and over again from one source can have the same effect as hearing that thing from many different people -- the brain gets tricked into thinking it has heard a piece of information from multiple, independent sources, even when it has not. Weaver's study was published this year in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. The experiments by Weaver, Schwarz and others illustrate another basic property of the mind -- it is not good at remembering when and where a person first learned something. People are not good at keeping track of which information came from credible sources and which came from less trustworthy ones, or even remembering that some information came from the same untrustworthy source over and over again. Even if a person recognizes which sources are credible and which are not, repeated assertions and denials can have the effect of making the information more accessible in memory and thereby making it feel true, said Schwarz. Experiments by Ruth Mayo, a cognitive social psychologist at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, also found that for a substantial chunk of people, the "negation tag" of a denial falls off with time. Mayo's findings were published in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology in 2004. "If someone says, 'I did not harass her,' I associate the idea of harassment with this person," said Mayo, explaining why people who are accused of something but are later proved innocent find their reputations remain tarnished. "Even if he is innocent, this is what is activated when I hear this person's name again. "If you think 9/11 and Iraq, this is your association, this is what comes in your mind," she added. "Even if you say it is not true, you will eventually have this connection with Saddam Hussein and 9/11." Mayo found that rather than deny a false claim, it is better to make a completely new assertion that makes no reference to the original myth. Rather than say, as Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.) recently did during a marathon congressional debate, that "Saddam Hussein did not attack the United States; Osama bin Laden did," Mayo said it would be better to say something like, "Osama bin Laden was the only person responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks" -- and not mention Hussein at all. The psychologist acknowledged that such a statement might not be entirely accurate -- issuing a denial or keeping silent are sometimes the only real options. So is silence the best way to deal with myths? Unfortunately, the answer to that question also seems to be no. Another recent study found that when accusations or assertions are met with silence, they are more likely to feel true, said Peter Kim, an organizational psychologist at the University of Southern California. He published his study in the Journal of Applied Psychology. Myth-busters, in other words, have the odds against them. From lawrence at altlawforum.org Sun Sep 9 13:16:40 2007 From: lawrence at altlawforum.org (Lawrence Liang) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 13:16:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chitra Katha- Film Contest Message-ID: <46E3A4E0.3000208@altlawforum.org> Chitra Katha – A Creative Commons, India Film Contest Visit: Avenues http://www.sjmsom-avenues.com, http://cc-india.org On the occasion of the 60th anniversary of India's independence, Creative Commons India is organizing a short film contest, on 'Better governance Through Right To Information.' We at Creative Commons [CC], India feel that the effective use of the Right to Information is really critical for creating better governance models across the length and breadth of our country. The CC movement and the RTI campaign commonly believe that information made available either through disclosure or through liberal copyright licensing is a great public asset. Such ease of access can play a decisive role in creating more transparency, accountability and hopefully more citizen participation in daily governance. Creative Commons [CC], India seeks to provide a decisively more flexible approach to copyrighting. It believes in empowering the user by voluntarily waving away some of its copyrights. The plan: Contestants will be invited to make a short film up to 5 minutes in length in Hindi or English based on the dramatization of preferably a true story on - "Better Governance Through Right To Information'. The top 5 films will be given exciting awards and chosen for viewing at Avenues at a special prize distribution ceremony. Dates: September 05: Registration for contest starts October 14: Closing of registration October 25: Declaration of results on sites October 27/28: Prize distribution ceremony during Avenues, IIT Bombay. Supported and sponsored by Creative Commons, India Knowledge Partner: National Campaign for People’s Right to Information (NCPRI) Shishir K. Jha Project Lead: Creative Commons, India IIT Bombay, Powai Bombay 400 076 Maharashtra ------------------------------------------------- Phone: +91.22.25767845(Work),25767781/82(Ext.7845) Fax: +91.22.25722872 (SOM-office) -------------------------------------------------- ************************************************************ Help build a sharing culture: participate in 'Chitra Katha', a Creative Commons, India Film Contest: Visit http://www.sjmsom-avenues.org/; http://cc-india.org ************************************************************ From sanjay.maharishi at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 15:04:34 2007 From: sanjay.maharishi at gmail.com (Delhi Cycle) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 15:04:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's pain got to do with it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E3BE2A.9060602@gmail.com> i have been on this list only for a couple of weeks, even less and reading the mails on kashmir was wondering what this list is all about. but shuddha's painstaking detailed account and gargi's very moving personal experience has, for me, significantly increased the 'signal to noise ratio'. apparently the reader-list boat is in no fear of being easily capsized. love sanjay maharishi From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 14:50:50 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:50:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shaman in the city -- independent fellowship postings In-Reply-To: <9943513f0709082146n6cf5ba1cyf3faac64b52dc1e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <9943513f0709082146n6cf5ba1cyf3faac64b52dc1e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709090220w65d6975cw564d597a9b330f7c@mail.gmail.com> hi gyaltsen, this is terrific stuff! i love the wa On 9/9/07, e lama wrote: > > Shamanism has been practised among communities all over the world for > millennia, and continues to survive today in both modern and > traditional forms. During its long evolution, it has migrated from > Siberia, Aboriginal Australia, Northern Europe and South America to > become a core part of western New Age and rave culture as well as > popular mythology. Its place within modernity is at once familiar and > alien, exemplary and uneasy ---- Graham Harvey > > hi all > > this is my second posting. i know its kinda late and i do apologise. i > have put up the research material and a few pages of the graphic novel > on my site. you can visit it here > > www.etattoo7.com/sarai/home.html > > my research is about the shamans that live in gangtok city. a study of > the shaman status with the changing cultures and modernisation. i > follow four shamans, interview them at various stages and video the > interview, some transcriptions of the interviews can be found on the > above link. the final product is intended to be a graphic novel and > some layouts can also be viewed at the above link. > > so please visit. comments, suggestions welcome. > > again sorry for delay > > cheers > > gyaltsen > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From swadhin_sen at yahoo.com Sun Sep 9 15:19:26 2007 From: swadhin_sen at yahoo.com (Swadhin Sen) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 02:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai Message-ID: <593442.11786.qm@web52208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear all The ubiquitous silence of the sarai subscribers about Naeem's mail is noteworthy. 'Freedom of speech' is always entwined with the power relations. We may send mails after mails to sarai. Yet, it doesn't mean that we will be heard. In liberal version, the act of writing and act of speaking assumes the action of other parties in taken for granted terms. The weak and marginalized may be permitted to speak and write; but this agency doesn't inhere the act of listening and consequent corrective measures. How will 'we', the non-Indians, interpret this action (in term of refraining from acting and/or participating in the debate)? Thanking all, Swadhin Swadhin Sen Archaeologist & Assistant Professor Department of Archaeology Jahangirnagar University Savar, Dhaka Bangladesh Ph. 88 01720196176 (mobile) ----- Original Message ---- From: S.Fatima To: Naeem Mohaiemen ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2007 3:37:18 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai No, no... we won't talk about Bangladesh and Pakistan. Aren't those regions part of the Akhand Bharat. I hope you know what akhand means. You better start learning Hindi or else you would be branded anti-national. You are a security threat to our Rashtra. You are a Bangladeshi. (Sorry Naeem - that wasn't real me. I think being on the Sarai list I am slowly turning into a Patriotic Indian, which practically means being a Gaurav shali Bharatiye and no longer respecting other cultures and languages). By the way, they were exchanging Urdu couplets, not Hindi. Since when has Urdu become Indian? --- Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > There are many members of Sarai who are neither > Indian, nor > Hindi-speakers. But Indian members of Sarai seem so > oblivious to > their Indo-centrism that they presume that we will > be able to, or want > to, follow debates that are at this point even > written entirely in > Hindi (I refer to recent posts where entire couplets > are posted in > Hindi w. no translation). > > This comes at the cost of many other debates that > could possibly > happen. I've witnessed items posted regarding > Bangladesh sinking > without a trace/response. Recently, particular > "Indian" topics have > generated hundreds of replies, drowning out all > else. The only time a > Bangladeshi cultural producer (Taslima Nasreen) gets > debated is when > what is at stake is how she was treated in India. > Only when Taslima > is a vehicle to debate Hyderabad values, Indian > secularism, etc does > she become a person of interest. > > Bangladesh/Pakistan/or elsewhere in South Asia does > enter into other > discussions-- as a foil. To insert immigration into > the debate, and > of course the ultimate insult that can be flung at > Suddha is that "he > is no longer in Bangladesh". > > This weekend, I was talking to Manosh Chowdhury, who > has just returned > from Japan to Dhaka. Unprovoked he started talking > about how "we" is > used unquestioningly on Sarai to mean "Indian". > Even "South Asian" > means "Indian", or at least everything non-Indian is > through the prism > of the "center". > > But it's a bore to be the resident scold, or a > token. I fear > eventually most who feel suffocated by the recent > endless debate (a > debate which is often between a few individuals, > sometimes even > one-to-one, and yet it gets sent to the entire list) > will have > Manosh's reaction. They will drift away, exhausted. > > As Jeebesh pointed out, it takes very little time to > destroy a > cyber-community that has been built up painstakingly > by Sarai over the > years. Tyranny of the few threatens to do just > that. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From kranenbu at xs4all.nl Sun Sep 9 16:27:21 2007 From: kranenbu at xs4all.nl (Rob van Kranenburg) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 12:57:21 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] shaman in the city -- independent fellowship postings In-Reply-To: <9943513f0709082146n6cf5ba1cyf3faac64b52dc1e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <9943513f0709082146n6cf5ba1cyf3faac64b52dc1e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17D49C49-02BD-451A-9747-C3A72F2BFFDA@xs4all.nl> Hello Gyaltsen, Very interesting. I've just been reading a book Thinking Through Things. Theorising Artefacts Ethnographically. Edited by Amiria Henare, Martin Holbraad and Sari Wastell. Routledge, 2007 to think of our bricolabs network as a network of people and things: http://www.bricolabs.net/ http://lab.dyne.org/BricolabsCambridge2007 http://lab.dyne.org/BricolabsParis2007 and am delving into Alfred Gell's theory of Art and Agency. Having tried to steer away from it, I've come to a point where spirituality and the motile qualities of the shaman become essential to the kind of change to overall generic infrastructures we are planning, Greetings! Rob Introduction: thinking through things. Amaria Henare, Martin Holbraad and Sari Wastell. ( p. 1- 32) Argument: from ethnographic revelations to political revelations "Even scholars dedicated to re-integrating materiality and culture in response to the Riversian (and earlier Cartesian) segregation continue to struggle with theoretical lanhuages that presume an a priori dinstinction between persons and things, matter and meaning, representation and reality. Like the modish notion of ' hybridity' the impetus towards reconnection turns on the presumption of initial separation." "The distinction between concepts and things ( which broadly compasses other familiar dichotomies such as sense versus reference, signified vs signifier, etc.) may be unhelpful, obnscuring theoretical possibilities that might arise were the pre-emption of such contrasts by the artefacts we study taken seriously." "With purposeful naïveté, the aim of this method is to take 'things' encountered in the field as they present themselves, rather than immeiately assuming that they signify, represent, or stand for something else." "Rather than accepting that meanings are fundamentally seperate from their material manifestations ( signifier v. signified, word v. referent, etc.), the aim is to explore the consequences of an apparently counter-intuitive possibility: that things might be treated as sui generis meanings." "So the starting-point instead is to treat meaning and thing as an identity - and if the Aristotelian notion of essence was meant to allow things to carry their definitive properties on their sleeve, then the essentialism entertained here is indeed radical. For in the image put forward, meanings are not 'carried' by things but just are identical to them. Such a starting-point neutralises the question of 'knowledge' at the outset, because meanings - be they native ( relativism) or supra-cultural (universalism) - no longer need to be excavated, illuminated, decoded and interpreted. What is proposed, in effect, is an anthropology that holds issues of interpretation at bay." "So in summary, behind the hope that an etnography of things may lead to a revision of our analytical assumptions about what counts as 'a thing' lie the possibility that those assumptions may be inappropriate, and that other people's understandings on this score ( including not just their ideas about things but also their assumptions) might be different from what we take to be our own when writing anthropologically. The heuristic approach advocated here seeks to animate these possibilities." "A heuristic use of the term 'thing' has aalso been adopted by Bruno Latour, who, after Heidegger, has worked to transform the semantic emphasis of 'things' from 'matters of concern' (2004a). Drawing on older etymologies in which 'thing' denoted a gathering place, a space for discussion and negotiation, Latour has rehabilitated this sense of the term as a way out of the twin culs-de-sac of constructivism and objectivity." "The way of anthropology's epistemological bind turns on a denial of the key axiom of dualist ontology, namely that difference has to be similarity what representation is to the world. For if one refuses to attribute difference to culture and similarity to nature, the circular coercion of dualism is rendered limp. In the scheme advanced here, therefore, the presumption of natural unity and cultural difference - epitomised in the anthropos - is no longer tenable ( cf Argyrou 2002). If we are to take others seriously, instead of reducing their articulations to mere ' cultural perspectives' or 'beliefs' (i.e. worldviews), we can conceive them as enunciations of different 'worlds' or 'natures' without having to concede that this is just shorthand for 'worldviews'. 10 "It is for this reason, for example, that the claim that when Cuban diviners say that powder is power they are speaking of a different powder ( and a different power also) is not a 'constructivist' claim ( cf. Latour 1999:21-3) To put it in Foucauldian ters, the point is not that the discursive claims ( e.g. 'powder is power') order reality in different ways - according to different 'regimes of truth' - but rather that they create new objects ( e.g. powerful powder) in the very act of enunciating new concepts (e.g. powerful powder)." "...what is advanced here is a radical constructivism not dissimilar to that envisaged by Deleuze ( Deleuze and Guattari 1994:7, 35-6) Discourse can have effects not because it 'over-determines reality', but because no ontological distinction between 'discourse' and 'reality' pertains in the first place. In other words, concepts can bring about things becuase concepts and things just are one and the same ( one and the same 'thing', we could say - using the term heuristically)." Separating and containing people and things in Mongolia. Rebecca Empson. (113-135) "The concept of 'fortune' (xishig) permeates many aspects of Mongolian social life. It motivates practices that involve separating (avax, salgax), a piece from a person, animal, or thing at moments of departure or transition, and then containing (xadgalax) it in a different form. ... the doing involved in making things visible or invisible makes relations. In this sense 'vision' becomes the tool by which relations are created." 113 "...objects, like humans, contain another dimension another dimension of the visible world and something of the essence of the person is thought to adhere to their belongings." 114 The Power of Powder. Multiplicity and motion in the divinatory cosmology of Cuban Ifa ( or mana, again). Martin Holbraad (189-219) "If the motility of powder dissolves the problem of transcendence versus immanence for babalawos, then motility also dissolves the problem of concept versus thing for us. And this because the latter problem is just an instance of the former. After all, the notion of transcendence is just a way of expressing the very idea of ontological separation. And ontological separation is what a non- motile logic posits at the hiatus that is supposed to divide concepts from things. Motility, on the other hand, turns on the idea that ontological differences do not amount to separations at all, but rather to intensive and 'self-scaling' transformations. Thus, just like in a motile logical universe powder can be power, deities can be marks on the divining board, and so forth, so concepts and things can also be each other. All it takes is to stop thinking of concepts and things as self-identical entities, and start imagining them as self- differential motions." Motility is a biological term which refers to the ability to move spontaneously and independently. It can apply to either single-celled or multicellular organisms. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motility) On 09 Sep 2007, at 06:46, e lama wrote: > Shamanism has been practised among communities all over the world for > millennia, and continues to survive today in both modern and > traditional forms. During its long evolution, it has migrated from > Siberia, Aboriginal Australia, Northern Europe and South America to > become a core part of western New Age and rave culture as well as > popular mythology. Its place within modernity is at once familiar and > alien, exemplary and uneasy ---- Graham Harvey > > hi all > > this is my second posting. i know its kinda late and i do apologise. i > have put up the research material and a few pages of the graphic novel > on my site. you can visit it here > > www.etattoo7.com/sarai/home.html > > my research is about the shamans that live in gangtok city. a study of > the shaman status with the changing cultures and modernisation. i > follow four shamans, interview them at various stages and video the > interview, some transcriptions of the interviews can be found on the > above link. the final product is intended to be a graphic novel and > some layouts can also be viewed at the above link. > > so please visit. comments, suggestions welcome. > > again sorry for delay > > cheers > > gyaltsen > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 17:10:54 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 17:10:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shaman in the city -- independent fellowship postings In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709090220w65d6975cw564d597a9b330f7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <9943513f0709082146n6cf5ba1cyf3faac64b52dc1e4@mail.gmail.com> <31d5ea920709090220w65d6975cw564d597a9b330f7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709090440p5a5efc20yd612897911d6899b@mail.gmail.com> sorry about the previous post. i hit send by mistake. Dear Gyaltsen, Your graphic novel looks quite brilliant! I love the story telling technique. It retains the quality of oral tradition even in the visual format. Devoid of speech bubbles and rigid panel breakups, the tales become so much more expressive. Each illustration allows one to get sucked into the eeriness. I am also quite interested in your research on the lives of present day shamans in Gangtok. Do keep us posted. Best, Vishal On 9/9/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > hi gyaltsen, > > this is terrific stuff! i love the wa > > > On 9/9/07, e lama wrote: > > > > Shamanism has been practised among communities all over the world for > > millennia, and continues to survive today in both modern and > > traditional forms. During its long evolution, it has migrated from > > Siberia, Aboriginal Australia, Northern Europe and South America to > > become a core part of western New Age and rave culture as well as > > popular mythology. Its place within modernity is at once familiar and > > alien, exemplary and uneasy ---- Graham Harvey > > > > hi all > > > > this is my second posting. i know its kinda late and i do apologise. i > > have put up the research material and a few pages of the graphic novel > > on my site. you can visit it here > > > > www.etattoo7.com/sarai/home.html > > > > my research is about the shamans that live in gangtok city. a study of > > the shaman status with the changing cultures and modernisation. i > > follow four shamans, interview them at various stages and video the > > interview, some transcriptions of the interviews can be found on the > > above link. the final product is intended to be a graphic novel and > > some layouts can also be viewed at the above link. > > > > so please visit. comments, suggestions welcome. > > > > again sorry for delay > > > > cheers > > > > gyaltsen > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Sep 9 19:04:19 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 06:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] *****India should claim IPR(intellectual propery rights/patents) over 0 and Indians have every right to do and regain its assets******* Message-ID: <327383.22051.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Members, A fact is always a fact. I didn't heard anything from junaid. I don't know how many of the sarai members are on their original names. While a day after the writing of this post, a democrat from U.S senate expressed his view stating that "If he would be the PRESIDENT OF USA, he would have stopped the aid to Pakistan and attacked the training camps at Pakistan ". If people of USA, and Americans thinking in such a nice way why not WE Indians? Germaine's are united and so as Korea's in future. Why not India??? Actually my writing was side tracked by the members of the SARAI. Its not like India-Centric or language as some of the member expressed. Akhand Bharat is used to speak Sanskrit as the medium of communication. Still many words are imported from Sanskrit and used in the national language(HINDI) and regional languages. Now a days English is the common medium of communication used in the world. INSTEAD OF ILLEGAL POSSESSION OF LAND(KASHMIR), both CHINA AND PAKISTAN and their supporters writing here SHOULD RETHINK about their thoughts and understanding towards their pseudo practices over religion. Since India is the exporter of BUDDHISM a transformation of Hinduism to Asia, We Indians are ready to offer afresh thought again in the form of YOGA and the importance of prayer to make countries and people feel better, confess themselves and refrain from violent thoughts. Even British handed over Hong Kong to Chaina after 99 year lease India did the same against Pakistan in the wars. If leases and defeats are generously managed Then whynot Pakistan and Chaina do the same in case of India? What the hell the world is doing at the suffering of our hearts and blood? This community include a variety of reporters,filmmakers,software engineers and intellectuals working at various capacities, I just ask you to think it and spread on the idea to claim the PATENTS AND IPR(INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS) over 0. The following are a few of the Barbarian attacks,losses and culture erosion 1) Ghajani on Somanath temple 2) Ghori rule 3) Tuglaq rule 4) Aurangzeb witched, weird conversion tactics on Hindu woman 5) Attacks from Partia 6) Kohinoor and several precious diamonds, peacock crown at world museum's 7) Zinna 2 nation theory and power joy at the cost of Indian patriot deaths 8) Illegal possession of land in Pakistan and China Hands (those are not empty peaks but the heart beat of Indians) 9) Jihadi attacks on India Isliye mein likha hoon ki hamko kuch bhi karne ka hak hai. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. From sen.gargi at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 20:02:16 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:02:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Of mocking and an "intellectual community" In-Reply-To: <232613.94171.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <232613.94171.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: O dear dear! The mocking hyena laugh was aimed at you and the rest of the gang dear K. of ARKP + VD. You didn't get it? Its not about your language-use but about thought-use. After all what other way can any intellectual or otherwise cyber-community do in response to your brethren's clarion call to action (stop the preview-screenings of a film, protest the govt' steps for affirmative action, and many more besides.) In stopping the preview screenings by an individual filmmaker - deluge ALL list servs, blogs, email ids that dare to carry the twin words: Kashmir-film - with incessant and continuous mails from a bunch of very, very angry people, angry with the filmmaker and bent on proving his nefarious links to some imagined 'influential' connection. On the grounds you have stopped the final leg of the six-months preview screenings quite successfully. Thrice. Twice in Bombay and once in Delhi. And had the filmmaker meanwhile not finished with his tours he would perhaps not been able to continue as now there appears to be no more previews possible at all. Your rage though does not end here. You have spammed and jammed each and every blog that simply carry the twin words. The other day a friend from Parihaspur told me that on her blog on pelicans that she uses to converses with other pelican lovers you all have plastered your endlessly same rhetoric simply because she mentions one line - The other day I saw a film on Kashmir. So not only do you patrol the streets my dears, you patrol the cyber-space too. Endlessly wary, continuously vigilant lest free-thought escape your watchful eyes and freely mix with free thinkers. And your tactics are the same and quite effective. Endlessly and en-mass say the same thing on every forum and pepper it with very personal attacks on an individual. This is an effective method, throw so much shit into the fan that people stop breathing, leave alone seeing. So effectively free speech is zipped up and people stop speaking altogether simply for the fear of provoking the same hysterical, endlessly repeating repetitions one more time. You taunt people who question borders and boundaries, call them anti-national and ungrateful, and yet you remain gleefully silent when the state you repose such faith in continues to turn out its own citizens from their homes and hearth in order to genuflect to global capital.Yournationalistic zeal effectively prevents you from perceiving, leave alone questioning, the super efficient way your government has circumscribed your constitution, the very foundation and the principles on which this state is built upon. You show allegiance to the flag and passport, but are strangely quiet about the anti-nationalistic working of large corporations. You howl in protest when the state initiates affirmative action, you march and rant and rave, find symbols of protest that make the dignity of labour very, very undignified indeed. For what? Simply so that another set of citizens, residents of the very same nation, do not get any access to the rights that you have enjoyed forever. You indict some people in Kashmir as terrorists and simply ignore State terrorism, in Kashmir, elsewhere. On top of it all, you talk endlessly, say the same things over and over on this list, read nothing on this list and take offense at everything. Especially take offense at things that have not been said, done or intended at all. Now what can any community do in response other than laugh? Especially a virtual community connected by the cyber-cord? Either switch off in disgust or switch on humour, no? So we laugh. What CAN we do with you dear ARKP + VD but laugh? The picture of the Winchester repeater is so very apt for you. We draw the picture and perhaps gently mock. And I say perhaps because i haven't really seen serious mocking. So you must accuse the 'intellectuals' at least some, of that. No one cut any one off this list. So you must accuse that you were cut off. No one pointed out any issues with any one's lack of skills of English. So you must bring that accusation up too. Your naive faith in Goebbels belief - a lie repeated endlessly will eventually become true - is so complete to be almost touching my dears. So what can any one do but laugh? Laugh, chide, and continue. With our conversations and games, some of which you will get but most you won't simply because you don't really want to play a game with us, you only want to stop us from playing ourselves lest we speak the unmentionable: Kashmir- film. Rest in peace dear K. And when you wake up tomorrow think of another accusation to hurl that most people on this list will ignore because what does anyone, or what can anyone say to you? And every once in a while some one like me will respond to the mail. Not because I take anything you say with any seriousness but because I enjoy a laugh and write with the hope someone, somewhere is reading the sub-text of my thoughts and enjoying a quiet chuckle. So thank you my dears for endless entertainment. yours amusedly, Gargi Sen On 09/09/2007, Kshmendra Kaul < kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote: > > It appears that for some in this "intellectual community", it is an > "intellectual" accomplishment to make fun of someone's lack of familiarity > with and skill at the English language. > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > --------------------------------- > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! > Games. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > From mail at shivamvij.com Sun Sep 9 21:48:37 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 19:18:37 +0300 Subject: [Reader-list] Mumbai Hotel expels Pakistani filmmaker In-Reply-To: <09AD1BE32C2FCF47A8049BDA1D0449EDF2444C@Site1Mail04.jeeves.ask.info> References: <09AD1BE32C2FCF47A8049BDA1D0449EDF2444C@Site1Mail04.jeeves.ask.info> Message-ID: <9c06aab30709090918s304417bh894e5e2ca3abe158@mail.gmail.com> New Delhi --- Noted Pakistani filmmaker Hasan Zaidi was thrown out by a Mumbai hotel on Monday for bearing his country's citizenship but he said on Thursday that the city remained a home for him with many warm friends. The filmmaker had arrived from Karachi on Monday and checked into a hotel where he was booked by a colleague from Mumbai. "I had barely entered my room when they sent for my passport and said they didn't put up Pakistanis or Bangladeshis." More http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=77157 From mail at shivamvij.com Sun Sep 9 21:59:12 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 19:29:12 +0300 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Muslims Are In. Are You? Message-ID: <9c06aab30709090929u4e2854c0g1248a2f85c5b5803@mail.gmail.com> They say that if you don't speak for yourself, others will speak for you. They say that the mullahs have hijacked Islam, that the 'silent majority' amongst Muslims will have to take a stand, that Imam Bukhari should not be allowed to speak for all Muslims. An engineer from IIT Madras, a Lucknowite studying managment in Oregon and an engineer-turned-journalist from Bhopal are amongst the people who write an immensely popular, thought-provoking blog called "Indian Muslims"with the catchy tagline "IM IN. ARE YOU?" at www.indianmuslims.in. There write on a very regular basis on issues related to Indian Muslims - be it Gujarat or the BJP's objections to communalism, the Imrana case or Uniform Civil Code. See, for instance, their dummy's guide to Islam in India: http://indianmuslims.in/introduction-to-islam-in-contemporary-india Excerpt: "A popular truism is that for everything valid about India, the converse is also valid. With all their complexities and sectarian differences, the same can be said for Indian Muslims." Read, comment at and link to IM, if you are IN. best shivam From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 23:34:28 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:04:28 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Of mocking and an "intellectual community" In-Reply-To: <232613.94171.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <232613.94171.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709091104nc2dcdaer6e044f3958b7fcc0@mail.gmail.com> congratulations, levi and diesel marketeers. chromosome modifiers, you lose. harrappan jeans/genes same thing. best From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 10 05:49:57 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 05:49:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thoughts about Indo Centrism from Istanbul Message-ID: <46E48DAD.3030302@sarai.net> Dear All, I am delighted to see the amount of noise and energy on this list. And to see that it is not all only about the indignation of ARKP+VD.It makes me fee that the 'community of correspondents' that Jeebesh has invoked is not a fiction after all. Whether it is shamans, jeans or any other matter, it will be discussed, and discussed threadbare. I want to take up Naeem's point about Indo-Centrism, because I think it is extremely significant. The default 'we' that most Indians irrespective of political affiliation assume has been grating against my consciousness of a while now. And I realize that in obsessing with the Indian state (and its shadow boxers') obsession with their nationalist paranoia, I too am guilty of occasionally indulging in that default 'we'. Apologies. From now on every 'we' that I will type will be as capacious as you, my fellow readers make it. I renounce any claim to any boundary or border around the first person plural. But since I have been declared an undercover Bangladeshi by an ARKP personnel, let me at least rejoice in my divided (or should I say multiplied) loyalties. My delight is a Turkish Delight at being accused of possessing suspect loyalties. I spent this evening looking out on to the piece of water that divides Asia from Europe, I mean the narrow strip called the Bosphorus Strait bisects the city of Istanbul. I could not help wondering, as I sat sipping Raki and committing unprintable oral blasphemies against the three abrahamic faiths and a few non abrahamic ones, including Turkish and Indian secular nationalism, how inconsequential the lines that we draw on the map actually are. Here was a city that straddled two continents with confidence, that had seen the rise and fall of empires and nations, that embraced pious atheists and doubting muslims and lapsed christians and non kosher jews in its arms, that continuously asked us to refine our declarations of certainty about who we think we are in the direction of a graceful, civilized yet playful skepticism. On Istiklal Caddeshi, the central pedestrian thoroughfare of Istanbul, I saw young women (some who wore a headscarf, and most who did not), spontaneously break into a dance to greet a midnight thunderstorm. I saw friendship and solidarities that cut through the headscarf/non-headscarf issue. I heard laughter and singing compete with the call for prayer. I watched old men play backgammon, drink beer, head into a mosque for prayer, and then come out and play backgammon and drink beer again. The rhythms of everyday life in a city like Istanbul make our (and here by using the word 'our' I am gesturing to the sad diminished 'Indian' we) nervous anxieties about identity seem utterly insignificant. I spent a long time talking Quranic exegesis, asking questions about Nazim Hikmet's poem to mysterious Bengali friend (a certain Bannerji, who the Turks call 'Benerji') who committed suicide, and laughed at wicked jokes about why there is not yet a Muslim version of the Da Vinci code. I heard sorrow at how it was turkish secularism that wraps the historic tragedy of the Armenian genocide in the shroud of silence. I heard many conflicting versions of history - Kemalist, Communist, Anarchist, Islamist, Ottoman but I did not find the arrogant, pompous, self righteous tone that so easily enters an 'Indian' (or should I say 'Indo-Centric' conversation) where past and present, truth, lies and fabrications are hurled about freely to score cheap points. I also heard an affection, from a few lurking turks that are reading everything we write on the Sarai Reader List about the way issues to do nationalism are confronted on the list, and particularly about how issues to do with Kashmir have been discussed in the recent days. There was amusement at the ARKP+ VD antics (guys, I mean ARKP + VD, you just lost the Istanbul vote, even though people find you hugely entertaining in) and then there was recounting of parallel narratives of how Turkish nationalists (both Secular and Islamist) froth at the mouth when they have to deal with the 'Kurdish' question. Perhaps, with time, they (the lurking turks) will make their voices and thoughts heard, and make this list less 'Indo-Centric' and more hospitable to currents and ideas from everywhere. In the last few weeks we have had a few sad and pathetic attempts at Islamophobia on this list. These attempts betray a tremendous ignorance of the diversity within islamicate cultures and spaces. While in Istanbul, I stepped into the maginificient Hagia Sophia, which has had different lives in different epochs, as pagan temple, christian basilica, moslem mosque and secular museum. But there is no denying that it remains before us as a living testimony of the catholicity of Ottoman Islamicate culture. The byzantine mosaics of Christ Pantocrator, the Virgin Mary and St. John the Baptist continue to astound us today, mainly because no Muslim sultan ever destroyed them, or even thought of destroying them. Today they happily occupy a space that also accomodates giant and beautiful calligraphic medallions that invoke Allah, Muhammad, Ali, Umar, Abu-Baqer, Hasan and Husain (sadly, Fatima, my personal favourite, is absent). The Christian Icons were 'veiled' by a plastering device that also served to prolong their life and preserve them. And they were restored in the nineteenth century by the order of the reigning Caliph. Similarly, the presence of beautiful synagogues in Istanbul is a terstament to the fact that the Ottoman empire was a place where Spanish and Portugese speaking Jews fleeing the christian inquisition found refuge. Istanbul continues to be a significantly Jewish city, and despite occasional provocations from the lunatic fringe, no one even dreams of Muslim-Jewish enmity taking a popular form. The anti-semitic veneer (not to be confused with anti-zionism) of both secular as well as islamist forms of Arab nationalism is a non issue in Istanbul. Neither secular Turks, nor mainstream Islamists have any truck with anti-semitism of any kind. And this in a society that contains the largest jewish population after Israel in the middle east. And it was the Muslim Caliph who guaranteed and underwrote the power of the Christian 'millet' in Turkey. Even the fact that Yazidism, a pre-Islamic synrectic religion with strong pagan currents has survived till today in Turkish Kurdistan, Armenia, and Northern Iraq is signatory of the tolerance of Ottoman culture. This is not to say that the Ottoman Empire, or modern Turkey were, or are model societies by any means. Ottoman rulers were tyrants, and Turkey has had ruthless and violent military rule. Kemalism, or the ideology of secular turkish nationalism is not a particularly benign form of politics, and it has waged a war aginst Kurdish minorities, not unlike the way in which the Indian state has dealth with Kashmir. I write this not to glamourize Turkey but only to illustrate the obvious and not very interesting point that goes to show that Islamicate society and forms of political power have a historical record of a far higher degree of tolerance towards religious difference than is commonly understood. I feel that there is a lot we can all learn if we try and cultivate an interest and curiosity about the history of places like Istanbul. For that to happen, the Indians on this list, both patriots and internationalists, will have to be a little more modest and realize that India is not the centre of the world, or indeed of the universe. The world does not, in fact have a centre. And what a relief it is to realize this simple fact. many salaams from Istanbul. Shuddha From hpp at vsnl.com Mon Sep 10 08:25:06 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (hpp at vsnl.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 02:55:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz Message-ID: Dear Friends I read with interest Yasir's posts on Iqbal and Faiz. "...and the absence of religious metaphor as in faiz's 'raaj karay gee khalq e khudaa' or as hard as that is to translate. raaj karay gee : will rule khalq e khuda : lit. creation of god - but also meaning the laity, crowd, people, awaam or, utthay ga analhaq kaa naara the cry 'i am truth/god' will rise above (mansur hallaj was crucified for this utterance)" I was struck by the term "khalq e khuda" used by Faiz. From the little I know, and that too accreted in the strangest of ways - this has great resonance in Sufi consciousness. To me this directly recalls "khidmat e khalq" - service of people ("one who loves my people is beloved to me"), which is also the secret 100th name of Allah, knowing which gives immense power to the knower, "knowing" here meaning an existential state, of being. Thus, the person whose life is lived entirely for others, possesses great powers, blessed to him by God whose work he is fulfilling. There is also I believe a Koranic link to this conception, if I'm not mistaken, in the "Cave" chapter. Of course the term "khalq e khuda" can also be seen as a (sacred?!) political principle / ideal, where the people are sovreign. Thus, religion and God has been cast aside, the world liberated from their thrall and tyranny, and in its place the conviction that humanity is foremost, and human needs, human ideals, human progress, human freedom, human happiness are pre-eminent, sacred. Bringing the two terms, people and God, together also makes for interesting dimensions in my mind - the People, who are God; God's people; people's God. The reference to Mansur Hallaj is also noteworthy for me, suggesting that the poet is consciously and explicitly invoking one set of concepts and symbols, and their relation to the power to stir, raise, arouse, awaken, inspire, transform etc. Hallaj was right in his way, as was the view that apostasy had been committed. And thus the great mystery of it all, whose answer - can only be in silence. The brutality of his killing also indicates the necessarily brutal break with everything that is known that Sufi consciousness and way of life makes. Thus modern political revolutionary consciousness, pertaining to the nature of the human-designed external world, and the status of the human here, is posited as akin to / part of the inner revolutionary concerns of the Sufi. And revolutionaries too have been butchered / martyred like Hallaj. Thanks for your patience. Best V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com From virtuallyme at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 10:48:46 2007 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:48:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thoughts about Indo Centrism from Istanbul (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Message-ID: <79e82f610709092218l6c179e08q7e1e9153246a79df@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, Have been following this recent cacaphony/symphony of voices with great interest, especially your interludes. Loved this recounting of yours of Turkey and its relevance in the context. Thought Ill add a line or two about and from Rumi, who made Konya in Turkey his home, which I think fits into the recent ebbs and flows of readerslist - 'Come, come, whoever you are, Wanderer, idolater, worshipper of fire, Come even though you have broken your vows a thousand times, Come, and come yet again. Ours is not a caravan of despair.' Rgds, Rohan > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 05:49:57 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: [Reader-list] Thoughts about Indo Centrism from Istanbul > To: sarai list > Message-ID: <46E48DAD.3030302 at sarai.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Dear All, > > I am delighted to see the amount of noise and energy on this list. And > to see that it is not all only about the indignation of ARKP+VD.It makes > me fee that the 'community of correspondents' that Jeebesh has invoked > is not a fiction after all. Whether it is shamans, jeans or any other > matter, it will be discussed, and discussed threadbare. > > I want to take up Naeem's point about Indo-Centrism, because I think it > is extremely significant. The default 'we' that most Indians > irrespective of political affiliation assume has been grating against my > consciousness of a while now. And I realize that in obsessing with the > Indian state (and its shadow boxers') obsession with their nationalist > paranoia, I too am guilty of occasionally indulging in that default > 'we'. Apologies. From now on every 'we' that I will type will be as > capacious as you, my fellow readers make it. I renounce any claim to any > boundary or border around the first person plural. > > But since I have been declared an undercover Bangladeshi by an ARKP > personnel, let me at least rejoice in my divided (or should I say > multiplied) loyalties. My delight is a Turkish Delight at being accused > of possessing suspect loyalties. > > I spent this evening looking out on to the piece of water that divides > Asia from Europe, I mean the narrow strip called the Bosphorus Strait > bisects the city of Istanbul. I could not help wondering, as I sat > sipping Raki and committing unprintable oral blasphemies against the > three abrahamic faiths and a few non abrahamic ones, including Turkish > and Indian secular nationalism, how inconsequential the lines that we > draw on the map actually are. Here was a city that straddled two > continents with confidence, that had seen the rise and fall of empires > and nations, that embraced pious atheists and doubting muslims and > lapsed christians and non kosher jews in its arms, that continuously > asked us to refine our declarations of certainty about who we think we > are in the direction of a graceful, civilized yet playful skepticism. > > On Istiklal Caddeshi, the central pedestrian thoroughfare of Istanbul, I > saw young women (some who wore a headscarf, and most who did not), > spontaneously break into a dance to greet a midnight thunderstorm. I saw > friendship and solidarities that cut through the headscarf/non-headscarf > issue. I heard laughter and singing compete with the call for prayer. I > watched old men play backgammon, drink beer, head into a mosque for > prayer, and then come out and play backgammon and drink beer again. The > rhythms of everyday life in a city like Istanbul make our (and here by > using the word 'our' I am gesturing to the sad diminished 'Indian' we) > nervous anxieties about identity seem utterly insignificant. > > I spent a long time talking Quranic exegesis, asking questions about > Nazim Hikmet's poem to mysterious Bengali friend (a certain Bannerji, > who the Turks call 'Benerji') who committed suicide, and laughed at > wicked jokes about why there is not yet a Muslim version of the Da Vinci > code. > > I heard sorrow at how it was turkish secularism that wraps the historic > tragedy of the Armenian genocide in the shroud of silence. I heard many > conflicting versions of history - Kemalist, Communist, Anarchist, > Islamist, Ottoman but I did not find the arrogant, pompous, self > righteous tone that so easily enters an 'Indian' (or should I say > 'Indo-Centric' conversation) where past and present, truth, lies and > fabrications are hurled about freely to score cheap points. > > I also heard an affection, from a few lurking turks that are reading > everything we write on the Sarai Reader List about the way issues to do > nationalism are confronted on the list, and particularly about how > issues to do with Kashmir have been discussed in the recent days. There > was amusement at the ARKP+ VD antics (guys, I mean ARKP + VD, you just > lost the Istanbul vote, even though people find you hugely entertaining > in) and then there was recounting of parallel narratives of how Turkish > nationalists (both Secular and Islamist) froth at the mouth when they > have to deal with the 'Kurdish' question. Perhaps, with time, they (the > lurking turks) will make their voices and thoughts heard, and make this > list less 'Indo-Centric' and more hospitable to currents and ideas from > everywhere. > > In the last few weeks we have had a few sad and pathetic attempts at > Islamophobia on this list. These attempts betray a tremendous ignorance > of the diversity within islamicate cultures and spaces. While in > Istanbul, I stepped into the maginificient Hagia Sophia, which has had > different lives in different epochs, as pagan temple, christian > basilica, moslem mosque and secular museum. But there is no denying that > it remains before us as a living testimony of the catholicity of Ottoman > Islamicate culture. The byzantine mosaics of Christ Pantocrator, the > Virgin Mary and St. John the Baptist continue to astound us today, > mainly because no Muslim sultan ever destroyed them, or even thought of > destroying them. Today they happily occupy a space that also accomodates > giant and beautiful calligraphic medallions that invoke Allah, Muhammad, > Ali, Umar, Abu-Baqer, Hasan and Husain (sadly, Fatima, my personal > favourite, is absent). > > The Christian Icons were 'veiled' by a plastering device that also > served to prolong their life and preserve them. And they were restored > in the nineteenth century by the order of the reigning Caliph. > > Similarly, the presence of beautiful synagogues in Istanbul is a > terstament to the fact that the Ottoman empire was a place where Spanish > and Portugese speaking Jews fleeing the christian inquisition found > refuge. Istanbul continues to be a significantly Jewish city, and > despite occasional provocations from the lunatic fringe, no one even > dreams of Muslim-Jewish enmity taking a popular form. The anti-semitic > veneer (not to be confused with anti-zionism) of both secular as well as > islamist forms of Arab nationalism is a non issue in Istanbul. Neither > secular Turks, nor mainstream Islamists have any truck with > anti-semitism of any kind. And this in a society that contains the > largest jewish population after Israel in the middle east. > > And it was the Muslim Caliph who guaranteed and underwrote the power of > the Christian 'millet' in Turkey. Even the fact that Yazidism, a > pre-Islamic synrectic religion with strong pagan currents has survived > till today in Turkish Kurdistan, Armenia, and Northern Iraq is signatory > of the tolerance of Ottoman culture. > > This is not to say that the Ottoman Empire, or modern Turkey were, or > are model societies by any means. Ottoman rulers were tyrants, and > Turkey has had ruthless and violent military rule. Kemalism, or the > ideology of secular turkish nationalism is not a particularly benign > form of politics, and it has waged a war aginst Kurdish minorities, not > unlike the way in which the Indian state has dealth with Kashmir. I > write this not to glamourize Turkey but only to illustrate the obvious > and not very interesting point that goes to show that Islamicate society > and forms of political power have a historical record of a far higher > degree of tolerance towards religious difference than is commonly > understood. > > I feel that there is a lot we can all learn if we try and cultivate an > interest and curiosity about the history of places like Istanbul. For > that to happen, the Indians on this list, both patriots and > internationalists, will have to be a little more modest and realize that > India is not the centre of the world, or indeed of the universe. The > world does not, in fact have a centre. And what a relief it is to > realize this simple fact. > > many salaams from Istanbul. > > Shuddha > From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 10 10:58:46 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:58:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E4D60E.3020105@sarai.net> Dear Ramaswamy, Many thanks for your thoughtful response, I learnt a lot from your nuanced reading of Faiz. Just to throw a not so well wrought thought, which occurs to me, mainly through an aural resonance of a fragment of the text, and to add to your rich mix of interpretation - could it be that the phrase 'raaj karay gee khalq e khudaa' could also be read as an sort of riposte to the slogan 'raaj karega khalsa' (the pure shall prevail - a Sikh motto ) which had travelled a certain distance from being a declaration of the will of the oppressed (those originally rallying to the Khalsa/Sikh revolt against Imperial Mughal rule) to being a statement of secterian power (a slogan of Sikh political power and statehood,and used especially during 1947 by rioting Sikh mobs as they attacked Muslim villages and settlements) Also, if we entertain this thought, then, the transformation of the robustly masculine 'karega' (masculine verb ending) to the feminine 'karegee' (feminine verb ending) becomes another thing to think about. This is not said seriously, but whimsically, albeit with some appreciation of the need for the impure to prevail. regards Shuddha hpp at vsnl.com wrote: > Dear Friends > > I read with interest Yasir's posts on Iqbal and Faiz. > > "...and the absence of religious metaphor as in faiz's 'raaj karay gee khalq e khudaa' or as hard as that is to translate. > > raaj karay gee : will rule > khalq e khuda : lit. creation of god - but also meaning the laity, > crowd, people, awaam > > or, utthay ga analhaq kaa naara > the cry 'i am truth/god' will rise above (mansur hallaj was crucified > for this utterance)" > > I was struck by the term "khalq e khuda" used by Faiz. From the little I know, > and that too accreted in the strangest of ways - this has great resonance > in Sufi consciousness. To me this directly recalls "khidmat e khalq" - service of > people ("one who loves my people is beloved to me"), which is also the secret > 100th name of Allah, knowing which gives immense power to the knower, > "knowing" here meaning an existential state, of being. Thus, the person > whose life is lived entirely for others, possesses great powers, blessed to > him by God whose work he is fulfilling. There is also I believe a Koranic > link to this conception, if I'm not mistaken, in the "Cave" chapter. Of course > the term "khalq e khuda" can also be seen as a (sacred?!) political principle / ideal, > where the people are sovreign. Thus, religion and God has been cast aside, the world > liberated from their thrall and tyranny, and in its place the conviction > that humanity is foremost, and human needs, human ideals, human progress, human > freedom, human happiness are pre-eminent, sacred. > > Bringing the two terms, people and God, together also makes for interesting > dimensions in my mind - the People, who are God; God's people; people's God. > > The reference to Mansur Hallaj is also noteworthy for me, suggesting > that the poet is consciously and explicitly invoking one set of concepts and > symbols, and their relation to the power to stir, raise, arouse, awaken, > inspire, transform etc. Hallaj was right in his way, as was the view that > apostasy had been committed. And thus the great mystery of it all, whose > answer - can only be in silence. The brutality of his killing also indicates > the necessarily brutal break with everything that is known that Sufi > consciousness and way of life makes. Thus modern political revolutionary > consciousness, pertaining to the nature of the human-designed external > world, and the status of the human here, is posited as akin to / part of the > inner revolutionary concerns of the Sufi. And revolutionaries too have been > butchered / martyred like Hallaj. > > Thanks for your patience. > > Best > > V Ramaswamy > Calcutta > cuckooscall.blogspot.com > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 11:04:42 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:34:42 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] I Can't Find Dhaka On Staten Island Ferry Message-ID: I have a collaboration with Salahuddin Ahmed for a contribution to Neurotransmitter's "FM Ferry Experiment". Text for the collaboration below, followed by the text for "FM Ferry Experiment". ################################ I Can't Find Dhaka Naeem Mohaiemen/Salahuddin Ahmed "May liked it. She said: what a pretty road, it's so much more open than Calcutta. But as for my grandmother, she kept saying: I've never seen any of this. Where's Dhaka?" In Amitav Ghosh's Shadow Lines, the grandmother returns to Dhaka on a mission: to convince her relative to leave East Pakistan and move to India. It is 1964, and a few pages later communal riots will engulf old Dhaka and her family. But in this moment, it is still the shock of the familiar unfamiliar that devours her. Marinate on becoming strangers in that same city, without the device of physical, political displacement. Forty years after Ghosh's time-frame Dhaka is alien to many. Designed to carry five million, it is now home to fifteen million citizens. And still the numbers swell, desperate for work as villages empty out. Those who cannot manage to get to the Middle East, come to Dhaka. But security paranoia swallows public space and shopping malls are the new oases, security guards at every door-- Habermas' prison in reverse. Salahuddin Ahmed runs Atelier Robin Architects in Dhaka. Naeem Mohaiemen works in Dhaka and New York. ################################ The FM Ferry Experiment live broadcast from the Staten Island Ferry concept and programming by: neuroTransmitter (Valerie Tevere + Angel Nevarez) September 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 27, 28, 29 12 - 4 pm EST (NYC) WSIA 88.9FM http://www.fmferryexperiment.net In-Studio: Hurricane Deck of the Staten Island Ferry reached via: Whitehall Terminal -- 1 Whitehall St. Manhattan St. George Terminal - 1 Bay St. Staten Island For eight days in September, neuroTransmitter presents The FM Ferry Experiment, a project which transforms the Staten Island Ferry into a floating radio station, broadcasting out to the NYC region as it continuously travels between Staten Island and Lower Manhattan. In 1967, The New York Avant-Garde Festival (1963-1980) founded by Charlotte Moorman, landed on the Staten Island Ferry for 24-hours. In the spirit of this festival, The FM Ferry Experiment integrates broadcast and performance into one of New York's most traveled public spaces, expanding its architecture out into the airwaves, engaging publics on the ferry and on-the-air. Live programs consisting of performances, lectures, and conversations will take place on the Staten Island Ferry, and will be broadcast along with music, sound, and ambient noise via WSIA 88.9 FM and http://www.fmferryexperiment.net In-studio performances and appearances by: 31 Down, Dafne Boggeri, Ralf Homann, Jesal Kapadia & Sreshta Premnath, Tianna Kennedy, Emily Jacir & Jamal Rayyis, Edward Miller, School of Missing Studies with Peter Ferko, Xaviera Simmons, Brooke Singer & Brian Rigney Hubbard, Sandra Skurvida, Alex Villar, Bojidar Yanev audio works by: Julieta Aranda, Fia Backström, Mark & Stephen Beasley, Wiebe E. Bijker, Bik Van der Pol, Nao Bustamante, Paul Chan, free103point9, Wynne Greenwood & K8 Hardy, Maryam Jafri, Hassan Khan, Fabiano Kueva, Brandon LaBelle, Pedro Lasch with Thomas Lasch & Audio Wizards, Cristóbal Lehyt, LIGNA, Lana Lin, Jill Magid with Ed Vas, Naeem Mohaiemen (with Salahuddin Ahmed), Antoni Muntadas, Max Neuhaus, Phill Niblock, Carsten Nicolai, Jenny Perlin, Cesare Pietroiusti, Radio Sonideros (Sara Harris, Adolfo Guzman-Lopez, Keren Ness, Clare Robbins), Steve Roden, Marina Rosenfeld, Kristen Roos & Jackson 2Bears, Martha Rosler, Scanner, Hanna Rose Shell & Luke Fischbeck, Jason Simon, Skyline, Judi Werthein plus further socio-spatial experimentation, conversations, news bulletins, music, archival broadcasts, and sing-alongs… http://www.fmferryexperiment.net ################################ neurotransmitter - Initiated in 2001 by Angel Nevarez and Valerie Tevere as a project whose work fuses conceptual practices with transmission, sound performance, and mobile broadcast. Their work re-articulates radio in multiple contexts considering new possibilities for the broadcast spectrum as public space. Recent projects include: WUNP, unitednationsplaza, Berlin, Germany; The Contemporary Museum, Baltimore; The New Museum, NY; viafarini, Milan, Italy; The Anna Akhmatova Museum, St. Petersburg, Russia; Govett Brewster Museum, NZ; Centre d'Art Passerelle, Brest, France; and Museu da Imagem e do Som, Sao Paulo, Brazil. Tevere is an artist and Associate Professor of Media Culture at the College of Staten Island, CUNY. Nevarez is an artist, DJ, and musician. From labor at buchsenhausen.at Mon Sep 10 12:03:10 2007 From: labor at buchsenhausen.at (buchsenhausen.labor) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:33:10 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] buchsenhausen.air 2008/09 - call for submissions Message-ID: <46E4E526.1030808@buchsenhausen.at> ************************************************************* buchsenhausen.air 2008/2009 International Fellowship Programme For Visual And Media Arts Call For Submissions ************************************************************* Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen invites visual and media artists, art critics and theorists to apply for a fellowship in the winter semester 2008/2009 or the summer semester 2009. The closing date for submissions is October 19, 2007 (postmark). ........... Institution Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen is an international centre for production, research and discussion in the fields of visual and media arts. The Kunstlerhaus provides a plattform that facilitates the development and production of artistic and theoretical projects in a critical environment. It builds also a forum for direct exchange between artists, theorists, art critics and curators from the region and abroad. Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen is affiliated with the "Tyrolean Artists' Association". ......... Programme With its International Fellowship Programme For Visual And Media Arts "buchsenhausen.air", Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen actively promotes an internationally pertinent art production, research and discussion in the region of Tyrol. In the framework of the programme, every year 4 visual / media artists and 2 theorists / art critics receive a fellowship and reside in Innsbruck for a period of 5 months. The fellows selected by expert jurors find excellent working conditions in Buchsenhausen, while the City of Innsbruck and its surrounding area offer an interesting setting in terms of art, culture and landscape. The grant and the residency allow fellows to work on the proposed project but also give them the chance to experiment and to reconsider their current practice. Furthermore, they have the opportunity to directly familiarise themselves with the work of other fellows and professionals from the region and abroad, to exchange plans and ideas and to also carry out joint projects. Usually there are 3 fellows (2 artists and 1 theorist/art crtitic) and 6 Tyrol-based artists working in Buchsenhausen at the same time. For former and current fellows and their projects please visit http://buchsenhausen.at. ........ Location The building - the eastern wing of the Buchsenhausen Castle, built in the middle of the 17th century and situated in the City of Innsbruck, not far from its centre - houses nine studios and a project space. Three apartment studios are used by fellows of the International Fellowship Programme For Visual And Media Arts "buchsenhausen.air". Six studios are available to artists based in Tyrol. Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen also has a large project and presentation space equipped with multimedia facilities. The space was designed by Atelier van Lieshout. .......... Fellowship + a stipend of EUR 650,-- / month covering the living and material expenses + an individual studio for working and living furnished with a large shared kitchen + a production budget for the realization of the proposed project + public presentation of the project developed and produced in the framework of the fellowship In the academic year 2008/2009, Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen offers 4 fellowships to artists and 2 felowships to theorists / art critics. There are two periods for which candidates can apply: winter semester 2008/2009: September 1, 2008 – January 30, 2009 summer semester 2009: February 2, 2009 - July 3, 2009 .......... Facilities + free access to the project/gallery space buchsenhausen.labor + free use of the available multimedia production equipment in Buchsenhausen.labor + free dsl/wlan internet access + professional (artistic) advice if required + technical advice if required ........... Eligibility Professional artists, theorists and art critics in the fields of visual and media arts are eligible for the fellowship. ........... Requirements The main place of residence of the candidates must be outside Tyrol. The fellows must be present in Buchsenhausen for a minimum of two thirds of the allocated fellowship time. Working knowledge of German or English is required. The requirements include the submission of a project proposal. The work on the submitted project builds the core of the activities of each fellow during his / her stay in Buchsenhausen. Apart from the concluding presentations at the end of the fellowship in January 2009 respectively June 2009, fellows commit themselves to give lectures and/or organize further events related to the topics of their individual work. ......... Selection The selection of the fellows is made by expert jurors and based on the quality and relevance of the project proposal and the work samples submitted by the applicants. Members of the jury are the director of the Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen, a member of the board of the "Tyrolean Artists' Association" and one external expert. Jury 2008/2009: Jochen Becker, Maria Peters, Andrei Siclodi There is no legal right to be awarded a fellowship at Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen. Therefore, the jury is under no obligation to justify decisions. The decision of the jury will be communicated in December 2007 in written form. ..................... Application procedure Applications must include the following documents: + the project proposal (max 1.500 words, 3 copies) + a visual portfolio / documentation of recent work (artists: max 2 catalogues, max 10 photos or slides, 1 dvd or 1 cd-rom; theorists / art critics: max 3 recent writing samples) + a curriculum vitae (3 copies) + a completed application form Download the application form from http://buchsenhausen.at, fill it in and send it together with the required material mentioned above to: Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen, ref.: "air 2008/2009" Weiherburggasse 13/12, 6020 Innsbruck, Austria *********************************************************** Closing date for submissions (postmark) : October 19, 2006 *********************************************************** For additional information please contact: office at buchsenhausen.at, phone +43 512 278627, fax -11 -- Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen Weiherburggasse 13/12 6020 Innsbruck, Austria phone +43 512 278627 fax +43 512 278627-11 office at buchsenhausen.at http://buchsenhausen.at From hpp at vsnl.com Mon Sep 10 12:11:38 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (hpp at vsnl.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 06:41:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Pedagogical Faultlines workshop Message-ID: Dear Sarai Friends I read with interest the announcement of the worshop on International Workshop on Alternatives in Education (September 21 & 22, 2007, Amsterdam). I have shared this with my friends and associates who would be interested. As someone with direct and close interest and involvement in several of the issues proposed to be discussed - I wish I was able to attend. Unfortunately my prior engagements at the same time rule that out. I think I would not be alone in wishing that a workshop be subsequently organised in India shortly after, where the Amsterdam workshop experience could be shared with people here, and also sought to be carried forward in action. As SARAI seems to also be involved in this workshop, I hope this request would be considered by SARAI. Thank you. Yours sincerely V Ramaswamy Hony Chairman Howrah Pilot Project Priya Manna Basti, Shibpur Howrah, West Bengal From hpp at vsnl.com Mon Sep 10 12:12:27 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (hpp at vsnl.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 06:42:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz Message-ID: Dear Yasir and Shudha Many thanks for your kind response to my reflections. I too was immediately reminded of "raj karega khalsa", more so as someone who has known, lived with, visited gurdwaras (and also sung as a boy in my boarding school's gurdwara) . But I overlooked the "karegi" bit, and with so its good Shudha pointed this out. Yes, reflecting on the masculine / feminine peculiar to Urdu / Hindi could yield some interesting conceptions of what Faiz's words indicate. Just this morning I was again thinking about something that I've long felt - and that also touches on exactly what Shudha has raised - masculine-feminine, Sikh. From my childhood, living with Sikhs (in a boarding school) - I always saw Sikhs (boys, men) as essentially feminine. They seemed to have qualities and temperaments that were associated in my consciousness with e.g. my grandmother; this also had something to do with their having long hair. Many years later, when I kept my hair long for some years, and therefore had to look after and tend this ("kesh"), I felt that by having Sikhs keep their hair long, and thus look after it - perhaps a certain feminisation, certain feminine qualities were being sought to be instilled in and imparted to Sikh men. I have spoken about this to some Sikh friends as well. One of Krishna's names - is "Keshava", which could mean "of lovely locks". Seeing a painting made by an uncle (who paints as a hobby) of "Radha" as a girl, I had expressed to him my wish to see a picture of the little boy Krishna sitting still on the ground, while the little (and bit older!) girl Radha, sitting behind on her knees plaits his hair. I am also reminded of Rumi's reference to the curl of the lock of hair on the face of the beloved ... Thank you. Best ramaswamy From ratishn at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 15:58:55 2007 From: ratishn at gmail.com (Ratish Nanda) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:58:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "National Ground Water Congress" - our governments 9/11- Message from Manoj Misra Message-ID: Dear friends, Those of you who might have missed the news / advt in this morning's 910.9.07) news papers, the Ministry of Water Resources, Government of India is organising a day long 'National Ground Water Congress' on 11.9.2007 in Vigyan Bhawan, New Delhi. The Congress to be inaugurated by the Hon'ble PM and closed through a valedictory address by Hon'ble President of India with a theme of 'Towards Sustainability of Ground Water Resources' has following as its objectives: a) Developing strategies for sustainable and equitable use of ground water b) Promoting water literacy c) Evaluating the role of ground water in National food and water security d) Promoting more crop and income per drop of water While such a Congress in Delhi is timely and welcome in the light of 2007 being the 'Water Year', it's irony and hollow-ness cannot be lost sight of when one is trying to discuss ground water issues in a city who's ground water security in form of its river flood plains is under relentless pressures and threats by activities promoted by the state agencies themselves. In addition a close scrutiny of the objectives of the said Congress as enunciated above reveals a complete bankcruptcy of thought and action by the state when they are busy trying to develope use-focussed strategies with no emphasis on first protecting and conserving the sources of ground water recharge in particular the river flood plains which are the most economic and natural means of ground water recharge on an annual basis. It is fortunate that Sri Rajendra Singh is one of the key speakers at tomorrow's event and who would hence have an opportunity to raise this fundamental question to the organisers and audience in the Congress. In addition it is proposed to raise the matter through a peaceful and mute sit in just outside the Vigyan Bhawan tomorrow by few Yamuna satygrahis carrying appropriate posters and banners. manoj -- www.yamunajiyeabhiyaan.blogspot.com -- Ratish Nanda Conservation Architect 1559, Sector B, Pocket 1 Vasant Kunj New Delhi 110070 INDIA From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 17:12:04 2007 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:12:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fission Kashmir: Power Plays and the Kashmiri Pandits Message-ID: <4fcaee300709100442q41205ec0v82d015eb09c35b30@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Interesting piece! Best. Wali http://counterpunch.org/versey09062007.html *Power Plays and the Kashmiri Pandits* Fission Kashmir By FARZANA VERSEY Size matters. Did you read the report that quoted an army officer who served in the Kashmir valley saying, "Why would the police kill a militant who carries only Rs. 10,000 on his head? It is a better idea to let him grow big to command a reward of Rs. 3 lakh"? Are you impressed by the prudence or disgusted? "Does the government have any responsibility towards us? Their actions show they are responsible only towards the militants," said a shop owner, when the New Delhi Municipal Corporation razed a few shops that belonged to Kashmiri Pandits at the INA Market. What do the two comments tell us? That the militants are pampered or, like sacrificial goats, fattened before slaughter? Unlike the 140 terrorist groups, the Pandit lobby is strong. It can organise itself. Displaced Pandits are now demanding reservations in the Jammu and Kashmir legislature and government jobs for the community as well as setting up of three townships in the Valley for their rehabilitation. It is time they made these demands for the simple reason that it will take away the onus from the local Kashmiris who did not drive them out. And therefore they cannot claim to be refugees; they are regular immigrants, as much as other Kashmiris. The Pandit issue has been romanticised. If anyone is interested they truly ought to go to the so-called refugee camps in Delhi. I revisited Amar Colony and Pamposh Enclave. I had been there as suggested by Sunita Tikoo. I told her they were all proper houses. She had smiled, "What did you expect? This was not 1947. People had begun to move things. Every Pandit had two-three bags. They were rehabilitated within a year. Our education is our strength. Some were given two-three jobs here. You won't find a jobless Pandit. Most are well-off. If you are looking for those camps, you will find them only in Jammu." I managed to trace one such place in Mangolpuri, a suburb in Delhi. It is most certainly spartan with common facilities. Vinati Kaul had invited me into her one-room house. She, like several others, was a victim of threats from "terrorists or someone". There was an exodus. They approached the Kashmiri Samiti and they provided them with this place. When they first arrived the government gave a stipend of Rs. 500 for a four member family and rations every month. The payment was increased every year and is now almost Rs. 4,000. As she said, "Jagmohanji (the then governor) was the one who pushed things. The BJP had helped us a lot, giving us *ghee* and blankets. They would feel bad giving us aid because earlier we used to give them funds." Here too a hierarchy prevails. What one sees in the posh Pandit areas is the pugnacity of government employees and those who could afford to keep the people in power happy. They took advantage of the largesse reserved for those who needed it most. Vinati admitted, "A lot of aid comes from abroad, but it goes to the Samiti, it does not come to us." The power-play begins with the manner in which Panun Kashmir was born. In 1991, the Margdarshan Resolution was passed. The General Secretary's Report mentioned about "retrieving Kashmir as a nationalist bastion" and then went on to talk about its determination "to carve out a union territory on the soil of Kashmir". When Ashok Pandit of Panun Kashmir once said, "We should have perhaps gone the way of the Yasin Maliks and Shabir Shahs. Perhaps the government would have taken us more seriously then", he might have helpfully quoted figures of the number of them who have been killed or arrested by government organisations. There is no doubt they would have faced threats from terrorists, as is most of the population. That is the reason there are so many killings taking place to this day. Who are the dead? It isn't the Pandits because they have left. Are they concerned? While the rest of the Valley commemorates July 13 as Martyrs Day in remembrance of a dozen Kashmiris who were killed in 1931 by the Dogra regime outside the Central jail in Srinagar, the Pandits observe September 14 as Martyr's Day. It is not in memory of innocents but the murder in 1989 of the BJP vice-president. They have talked about bringing technology and progress in the Valley and yet they complain about the poor conditions. They take pride in how secular they are, but they are asking for a separation on the basis of their religious identity. It would be wise to remember that much before outside forces came into the picture, local militancy was already active. What were Kashmiris disgruntled about? Isn't it possible that in a Muslim majority state it was the Pandits who cornered all the prime jobs? Hari Jaising in his book, *Kashmir: A Tale of Shame*, observed, "Strangely, the Pandits were the first to oppose the entry of 'foreigners' (i.e. the Punjabis) into the Valley after partition. They were afraid of losing their jobs. This shows how narrow and time-serving their aims were." Yet, it isn't a government agency that has talked about providing them with security, but a militant outfit. Hurriyat Conference leader, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, has stated, "Kashmiri Pandits are a part and parcel of Kashmiri society and we will bring them back." Will they return? No. In a state where the army waits for a militant to grow big, their only hope is to keep reminding the authorities that chess cannot be played without pawns. And they are willing. *Farzana Versey* is a Mumbai-based writer-columnist. This piece first appeared in The Asian Age, India. She can be contacted at kaaghaz.kalam at gmail.com From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 18:20:01 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 05:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Of mocking and an "intellectual community" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <268922.69418.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Mr Gargi sen and the readers of SARAI, aapne acha ENGLISH ka pravinya dikhaya gargi sen ji lekin gallat waje ke liye. Ee bahut dukh ki baat hai. Bye the way what is the ARKP+VD is all about? junaid jaise log likh rahe to yahan logon ko kuch farwa nahi hai lekin maine jo likha hai usko side track karke kuch bhi bolne main bahut hoshiyaar hai bhule bhale log. ham/mein gusse pe nahin lekin thoda sochne main hai ki jo khoya hai (list in my previous mails) usee kaise wapus lautayenge? aur abhi tak kisine bhi kyu nahin yatna kiya ??? aur baki ka duniya kya kiya aisi hallat main??? uske and hume (india) main kya farak hai??? is generation main bhi hum kyum nahi badalne ka koshish kar rahe hai??? towards that the thinking and trying. If india is not central point to universe why all those things I mentioned in my earlier mails happened to India only? Everytime why the India only tolerate,suffer and asked to live in peace and patience??? agar thik thak se boldiya to sach ye hai ki USA IS HAVING JUST 500 YEARS OF HISTORY EUROPE --PROBABLY 3000 YEARS ASIA - INDIA IS THE OLDEST Akhand bharat yani INDIA -- pre harappan culture,history,wealth,knowledge VEDAS BORNED HERE(INDIA). WE INVENTED 0 ON WHICH ENTIRE HITECH WORLD is built and RUNNING TODAY. MANY PHILOSOPHERS,SCIENTISTS BORNED HERE(India). Many SAINTS BORNED AND BROUGHTUP HERE(INDIA) AND SHOWN THE PATH TO THE WORLD. As the almighty told he took the birth 9 times(as BHUDDA- last time ) to stabilse the things in the world. YADA YADA HI DHARMASYA GLANI RBHAVATHI BHARATA ABHYUTTHANAM ADHARMASYA TADATMANAM SRIJAMYAHAM!. PAVITRANAYA SADHOONAM VINASAYACHA DUSHKUTHAM DHARMA SAMSTHAPANARTDHAYA SAMBHAVAMI YUGE YUGE! like this many many many... isko manna chahiye ((india is centre to the universe)). Regards, Dhatri. Gargi Sen wrote: O dear dear! The mocking hyena laugh was aimed at you and the rest of the gang dear K. of ARKP + VD. You didn't get it? Its not about your language-use but about thought-use. After all what other way can any intellectual or otherwise cyber-community do in response to your brethren's clarion call to action (stop the preview-screenings of a film, protest the govt' steps for affirmative action, and many more besides.) In stopping the preview screenings by an individual filmmaker - deluge ALL list servs, blogs, email ids that dare to carry the twin words: Kashmir-film - with incessant and continuous mails from a bunch of very, very angry people, angry with the filmmaker and bent on proving his nefarious links to some imagined 'influential' connection. On the grounds you have stopped the final leg of the six-months preview screenings quite successfully. Thrice. Twice in Bombay and once in Delhi. And had the filmmaker meanwhile not finished with his tours he would perhaps not been able to continue as now there appears to be no more previews possible at all. Your rage though does not end here. You have spammed and jammed each and every blog that simply carry the twin words. The other day a friend from Parihaspur told me that on her blog on pelicans that she uses to converses with other pelican lovers you all have plastered your endlessly same rhetoric simply because she mentions one line - The other day I saw a film on Kashmir. So not only do you patrol the streets my dears, you patrol the cyber-space too. Endlessly wary, continuously vigilant lest free-thought escape your watchful eyes and freely mix with free thinkers. And your tactics are the same and quite effective. Endlessly and en-mass say the same thing on every forum and pepper it with very personal attacks on an individual. This is an effective method, throw so much shit into the fan that people stop breathing, leave alone seeing. So effectively free speech is zipped up and people stop speaking altogether simply for the fear of provoking the same hysterical, endlessly repeating repetitions one more time. You taunt people who question borders and boundaries, call them anti-national and ungrateful, and yet you remain gleefully silent when the state you repose such faith in continues to turn out its own citizens from their homes and hearth in order to genuflect to global capital.Yournationalistic zeal effectively prevents you from perceiving, leave alone questioning, the super efficient way your government has circumscribed your constitution, the very foundation and the principles on which this state is built upon. You show allegiance to the flag and passport, but are strangely quiet about the anti-nationalistic working of large corporations. You howl in protest when the state initiates affirmative action, you march and rant and rave, find symbols of protest that make the dignity of labour very, very undignified indeed. For what? Simply so that another set of citizens, residents of the very same nation, do not get any access to the rights that you have enjoyed forever. You indict some people in Kashmir as terrorists and simply ignore State terrorism, in Kashmir, elsewhere. On top of it all, you talk endlessly, say the same things over and over on this list, read nothing on this list and take offense at everything. Especially take offense at things that have not been said, done or intended at all. Now what can any community do in response other than laugh? Especially a virtual community connected by the cyber-cord? Either switch off in disgust or switch on humour, no? So we laugh. What CAN we do with you dear ARKP + VD but laugh? The picture of the Winchester repeater is so very apt for you. We draw the picture and perhaps gently mock. And I say perhaps because i haven't really seen serious mocking. So you must accuse the 'intellectuals' at least some, of that. No one cut any one off this list. So you must accuse that you were cut off. No one pointed out any issues with any one's lack of skills of English. So you must bring that accusation up too. Your naive faith in Goebbels belief - a lie repeated endlessly will eventually become true - is so complete to be almost touching my dears. So what can any one do but laugh? Laugh, chide, and continue. With our conversations and games, some of which you will get but most you won't simply because you don't really want to play a game with us, you only want to stop us from playing ourselves lest we speak the unmentionable: Kashmir- film. Rest in peace dear K. And when you wake up tomorrow think of another accusation to hurl that most people on this list will ignore because what does anyone, or what can anyone say to you? And every once in a while some one like me will respond to the mail. Not because I take anything you say with any seriousness but because I enjoy a laugh and write with the hope someone, somewhere is reading the sub-text of my thoughts and enjoying a quiet chuckle. So thank you my dears for endless entertainment. yours amusedly, Gargi Sen On 09/09/2007, Kshmendra Kaul < kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote: > > It appears that for some in this "intellectual community", it is an > "intellectual" accomplishment to make fun of someone's lack of familiarity > with and skill at the English language. > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > --------------------------------- > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! > Games. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 19:10:53 2007 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:10:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz In-Reply-To: <46E4D60E.3020105@sarai.net> References: <46E4D60E.3020105@sarai.net> Message-ID: <73eb60090709100640h43233697odda86a73a26c481c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha/others I am probably being an andhon mein kana (a deaf among the blind) while discussing Urdu poetry on Sarai, but I can imagine that the real Urdu-wallahs would be quite amused to see what sort of absurd interpretations go on here (when the discussants are not fully aware of the real meanings/contexts of the words and phrases). Though I am not saying that the non-Urdu wallahs have no right to interprete things in their own unconventional way. But it would help if we got to know the language and its history a little more before stretching "karega-karegi" beyond its limits. Of course Urdu-Hindi grammer is a bit awkward in deciding the gender of things/concepts - like this khalqat, khalq-e khuda, bheed, is alway feminine, while hujoom and majma is masculine, and no one knows why. But by limiting ourselves to a connection between Faiz and Sikh slogans, are we assuming that these are the only examples of Raaj karega and karegi. Such words/phrases are being used in poetry since the time of Vali Dakkani and Quli Qutb Shah. I have even heard folk lyrics for Rani of Jhansi where she would surely "Raaj karegi". But why force all of your 3000 subscribers to such non-issues. I think people on Sarai, especially Shuddha, have this art of taking the most mundane of ideas and spicing them up with jargon and presenting it as the most profound statment on the earth. Even the experts are left speechless. And when things come from Stanbul, or while packing the bags for the morning flight, things acquire even higher levels of scholarship. cheers Kirdar On 9/10/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Ramaswamy, > > Many thanks for your thoughtful response, I learnt a lot from your > nuanced reading of Faiz. Just to throw a not so well wrought thought, > which occurs to me, mainly through an aural resonance of a fragment of > the text, and to add to your rich mix of interpretation - > > could it be that the phrase 'raaj karay gee khalq e khudaa' could also > be read as an sort of riposte to the slogan 'raaj karega khalsa' (the > pure shall prevail - a Sikh motto ) which had travelled a certain > distance from being a declaration of the will of the oppressed (those > originally rallying to the Khalsa/Sikh revolt against Imperial Mughal > rule) to being a statement of secterian power (a slogan of Sikh > political power and statehood,and used especially during 1947 by rioting > Sikh mobs as they attacked Muslim villages and settlements) > > Also, if we entertain this thought, then, the transformation of the > robustly masculine 'karega' (masculine verb ending) to the feminine > 'karegee' (feminine verb ending) becomes another thing to think about. > > This is not said seriously, but whimsically, albeit with some > appreciation of the need for the impure to prevail. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > hpp at vsnl.com wrote: > > > Dear Friends > > > > I read with interest Yasir's posts on Iqbal and Faiz. > > > > "...and the absence of religious metaphor as in faiz's 'raaj karay gee khalq e khudaa' or as hard as that is to translate. > > > > raaj karay gee : will rule > > khalq e khuda : lit. creation of god - but also meaning the laity, > > crowd, people, awaam > > > > or, utthay ga analhaq kaa naara > > the cry 'i am truth/god' will rise above (mansur hallaj was crucified > > for this utterance)" > > > > I was struck by the term "khalq e khuda" used by Faiz. From the little I know, > > and that too accreted in the strangest of ways - this has great resonance > > in Sufi consciousness. To me this directly recalls "khidmat e khalq" - service of > > people ("one who loves my people is beloved to me"), which is also the secret > > 100th name of Allah, knowing which gives immense power to the knower, > > "knowing" here meaning an existential state, of being. Thus, the person > > whose life is lived entirely for others, possesses great powers, blessed to > > him by God whose work he is fulfilling. There is also I believe a Koranic > > link to this conception, if I'm not mistaken, in the "Cave" chapter. Of course > > the term "khalq e khuda" can also be seen as a (sacred?!) political principle / ideal, > > where the people are sovreign. Thus, religion and God has been cast aside, the world > > liberated from their thrall and tyranny, and in its place the conviction > > that humanity is foremost, and human needs, human ideals, human progress, human > > freedom, human happiness are pre-eminent, sacred. > > From rana at ranadasgupta.com Mon Sep 10 20:18:30 2007 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:18:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Of mocking and an "intellectual community" In-Reply-To: <232613.94171.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <232613.94171.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E5593E.1010404@ranadasgupta.com> Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > It appears that for some in this "intellectual community", it is an "intellectual" accomplishment to make fun of someone's lack of familiarity with and skill at the English language. Listen I'm not going to defend my ridiculous post about jeans. But it wasn't about anyone's command of language. Everyone makes mistakes like that; in this case serendipity produced nice effects. The return of the repressed, or something like it. No: my mail was about what imaginary communities one considers oneself to be part of. Dhatri brings it back in her last mail: >USA IS HAVING JUST 500 YEARS OF HISTORY > EUROPE --PROBABLY 3000 YEARS > ASIA - INDIA IS THE OLDEST I have three questions to Dhatri, and to anyone else who may care to answer: Question 1: What does it mean to say that "Europe" has 3000 years of history? Is there *anything* that persists across such a period of time, beyond just land itself? Can a modern European really claim any kinship with someone who lived in the same landmass 3000 years ago? Does s/he not have more in common with *anyone* on the planet today than with this notional ancestor? If, therefore, the European can imagine a relationship of kinship with that person of 3000 years ago, does it not mean that s/he can imagine kinship with *anyone*, and has s/he not entirely overcome all human limits - such as the idea of "Europe"? Lists of originary moments tell us nothing about anything. I would say that America is an older society than most of Europe because it has lived with the same language of the state for over two centuries. an 18th century american would not have to learn many new concepts to parcipate in contemporary american politics, while an 18th century venetian or prussian would be bewildered by modern italy or germany. So why the insistence on India's ancient origins? How does it help to explain who you are - you who are so modern in your concerns? You have surely more in common with the British and the Mughals than you do with someone from Harappa - for whom your idea of "India" would be entirely mystfying. And, if you *are* able to perform such a feat as to imagine kinship with a citizen of Harappa, why can you not imagine kinship with far more proximate figures? - citizens of Pakistan, for instance, who are like you in nearly every respect, or citizens of Afghanistan or America? Question 2 When you are able to think across such enormous timescales - 5000 years or so - why does *everything* not become relativised? Over such a period, nothing has remained the same - no border has remained stable, no ruling clan has stayed in charge. Every group has committed violence, and every group has been defeated. (Your list of Indian invaders, by the way, does not include Emperor Ashoka, who invaded so many lands that were not his own, and whose violence was so sickening that even he was forced to turn away.) Why are you not left with a sense of eternal change, and a benign indifference to who happens to be in today? You speak of "pain" - but there are many things apart from pain in this vast period of time. Or at least, there is no more pain here than in any other place of the world. History being, to paraphrase Bernard Malamud, "a tragedy full of joy". How can you draw out of such a vast and complex period just one simple story? Isn't this an affront to your own history? Question 3 What is your utopia? If you were free to rewrite history, if there had been an eternal Hindu India, if there had never been any Persians or Mongols or British to irritate this narrative sweep, what is the paradise that such a history would have produced in the present? In what terms would you describe it to yourself - peace, harmony, military might, wealth, spiritual achievement? - and what would its relations be with the outside world? Yours R From ml49 at duke.edu Mon Sep 10 21:28:58 2007 From: ml49 at duke.edu (Madhumita Lahiri) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:58:58 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai In-Reply-To: <21d61a110709100857y42732befqf97674e7d72a65bf@mail.gmail.com> References: <593442.11786.qm@web52208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <21d61a110709100857y42732befqf97674e7d72a65bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21d61a110709100858s4a9ca623xdbbcbb9fa3da62b5@mail.gmail.com> Hi Swadhinji and Naeemji, I use the Hindi honorific because using no honorific at all feels unseemly. I wanted to interface a rather stupefying question i got yesterday -- from a smart young Indian-origin student at a prestigious US university: "Is there a difference between Bengal and Bangladesh?" I answered yes (there is a geopolitical difference), then no (the cultures are not entirely separate), and then yes (but there are significant historical differences) and then just, what? Because the question, while seemingly simple, is a rather difficult one to tackle. I work on South Asian expressive culture -- particularly, the interface between popular film and what is thought of as 'high' literature -- and i work in Hindi, Bengali, and English. While my project is Indo-centric -- because of a focus on the transnational reception of the Kolkata- and Bombay-based film industries -- as a student of language and literature i want to work in linguistic units, not primarily in geopolitical ones. BUT, the question is: To what extent do you feel that it is a valid move to (claim to) work in/on/about 'Bangla,' given that the project will tilt towards Indian films? Does the claiming of a linguistic category end up erasing important geopolitical and historical differences -- or does it work usefully against the seemingly pervasive insistence on state-based distinctions, which are only 60 years old in our context? And what is one to do with the reality that South Asian language boundaries, somewhat like South Asian regional boundaries, are constantly shifting and responding to political imperatives, as well? (The Hindi/Urdu wallahs certainly know this one well!) Best wishes, and hopeful for a response, Madhumita On 9/9/07, Swadhin Sen wrote: > > Dear all > > The ubiquitous silence of the sarai subscribers about Naeem's mail is > noteworthy. > > 'Freedom of speech' is always entwined with the power relations. We may > send mails after mails to sarai. Yet, it doesn't mean that we will be heard. > In liberal version, the act of writing and act of speaking assumes the > action of other parties in taken for granted terms. The weak and > marginalized may be permitted to speak and write; but this agency doesn't > inhere the act of listening and consequent corrective measures. > > How will 'we', the non-Indians, interpret this action (in term of > refraining from acting and/or participating in the debate)? > > Thanking all, > > Swadhin > > Swadhin Sen > Archaeologist > & > Assistant Professor > Department of Archaeology > Jahangirnagar University > Savar, Dhaka > Bangladesh > Ph. 88 01720196176 (mobile) > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: S.Fatima < sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in> > To: Naeem Mohaiemen ; reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2007 3:37:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai > > No, no... we won't talk about Bangladesh and Pakistan. > Aren't those regions part of the Akhand Bharat. I hope > you know what akhand means. You better start learning > Hindi or else you would be branded anti-national. You > are a security threat to our Rashtra. You are a > Bangladeshi. > > (Sorry Naeem - that wasn't real me. I think being on > the Sarai list I am slowly turning into a Patriotic > Indian, which practically means being a Gaurav shali > Bharatiye and no longer respecting other cultures and > languages). > > By the way, they were exchanging Urdu couplets, not > Hindi. Since when has Urdu become Indian? > > > > --- Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > > There are many members of Sarai who are neither > > Indian, nor > > Hindi-speakers. But Indian members of Sarai seem so > > oblivious to > > their Indo-centrism that they presume that we will > > be able to, or want > > to, follow debates that are at this point even > > written entirely in > > Hindi (I refer to recent posts where entire couplets > > are posted in > > Hindi w. no translation). > > > > This comes at the cost of many other debates that > > could possibly > > happen. I've witnessed items posted regarding > > Bangladesh sinking > > without a trace/response. Recently, particular > > "Indian" topics have > > generated hundreds of replies, drowning out all > > else. The only time a > > Bangladeshi cultural producer (Taslima Nasreen) gets > > debated is when > > what is at stake is how she was treated in India. > > Only when Taslima > > is a vehicle to debate Hyderabad values, Indian > > secularism, etc does > > she become a person of interest. > > > > Bangladesh/Pakistan/or elsewhere in South Asia does > > enter into other > > discussions-- as a foil. To insert immigration into > > the debate, and > > of course the ultimate insult that can be flung at > > Suddha is that "he > > is no longer in Bangladesh". > > > > This weekend, I was talking to Manosh Chowdhury, who > > has just returned > > from Japan to Dhaka. Unprovoked he started talking > > about how "we" is > > used unquestioningly on Sarai to mean "Indian". > > Even "South Asian" > > means "Indian", or at least everything non-Indian is > > through the prism > > of the "center". > > > > But it's a bore to be the resident scold, or a > > token. I fear > > eventually most who feel suffocated by the recent > > endless debate (a > > debate which is often between a few individuals, > > sometimes even > > one-to-one, and yet it gets sent to the entire list) > > will have > > Manosh's reaction. They will drift away, exhausted. > > > > As Jeebesh pointed out, it takes very little time to > > destroy a > > cyber-community that has been built up painstakingly > > by Sarai over the > > years. Tyranny of the few threatens to do just > > that. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click > away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all > the tools to get online. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Sep 11 03:11:12 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:11:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On 'Khalq-e-Khuda' Message-ID: <46E5B9F8.3060708@sarai.net> Dear Kirdar, many thanks for your thoughtful response to my rather playful and non serious response to Ramaswamy regarding the phrase 'khalq-e-khuda'. I will now try and respond with a degree of seriousness, in order to respect the irritation that you express at the looseness with which words and terms in urdu/persianate literature are often thrown around in discussion. The phrase khalq-e-khuda has an interesting career. 'Khalq' is an arabic term which denotes 'creation' (as Ramaswamy has pointed out), and is distinguished from 'Amr' (direction) as being one of the two primary functions of God - as 'Creator' and 'Director' of the universe. Iqbal himself does this in his The Islamic characterization of Allah is gender neutral. Contrary to what is commonly thought, 'Allah' in Islam is not a 'father'. This is quite in opposition to the Christian concept of God, where 'he' is quite strongly paternal. The Judaic 'YHWH' has a tendency towards paternity (because of the scattered references to divine 'paternity' in the Old Testament, but largely, for most variants of the Jewish faith, the sex of god is immaterial. And to speak of him in within an Islamic context in exculusively male terms is somewhat inappropriate. This is underscored by the fact that the foremost of divine attributes in Islam, mercy and compassion, expressed as 'rahman ir rahim' comes from the Arabic root 'rhm' which stands for a complex of meanings including womb, kinship, relationship etc. Clearly the compassion and mercy of god is matricial. Similarly, the 'Ayat' or signs of God are expressed in a feminine sense, and the 'Khalq' or creation are signs, aya of God's rahm. Humanity springs from Allah's desire, and is a sign of Allah's love. That is why the 'Khalq' can be seen as a part of a feminine complex of signification. In that sense, Khalq is what is 'made' or 'fashioned' by God. Hence, humanity, people, are God's consummate creation, his Khalq. Hence the phrase 'Khalq Allah' (God's creation - people) and Khalq-e-Khuda (same). The phrases are often used to indicate the special relationship that human beings have to god, whereby, even the simplest and poorest amongst us, in Islamic thought, are special to God. It is a universalization (and a universalizing, transcendental abrogation) of the older Judaic principle of the 'chosen people'. In Islam, everyone is called, all are chosen, but not all live up to the implications of the choice, or answer the call. Thus, the phrase, 'Khalq-e-Khuda' is a conventionl marking of the dignity of each human being, or human beings collectively, who, regardless of station, are seen as standing in a special relationship to God, requiring no mediation. In a way, it marks the very opposite of the notion of 'purity' or claims to specialness, as marks of dignity. The pure, imlplies the impure. The created however does not call into being the image or the idea of the uncreated. In Islam, there is nothing 'uncreated'. In other words, to be khalq, (arabic - > persian, creation, one does not have to be khalis (arabic - clear as in clear water, persian, pure). Createdness, mere being, and purity are two distinct categories that do not require any relationship to one another. Islamic ideas of democracy/anarchy have always priviledged the fact that the "Khalq Allah" are sovereign, because they bear the mark of divinely ordained dignity. That is why Kingship (a marking of one human being as superior to all others) has no scriptural sanction in Islam. However, it needs to be remembered that the phrase, 'Khayr-ul Khalq Allah' (the greatest amongst Gods creations/people) is designated as a singular way of identifying Mohammed as prophet. But he too represents only the 'Insaan Kaamil', the man made perfect, and this too does not mean that he is automatically raised above all humans. He too has to listen to his companions, to his wives, indeed he is and can be admonished by them when it becomes necessary. However, let us return to the word "Khalq" Khalq can be singular or plural. Man/Person or Persons/People. It is one of the rare nominative cases in Arabic that does not change its ending with a change from singular to plural. One infers its collective or singulative status from the context. When someone says, 'Khayr-ul Khalq Allah' it is clearly a reference to the singularity of the person of Mohammed as Prophet. When one says 'Khalq Allah' or Khalq e Khuda' it refers to an abstract collective entity - the people. In Arabic, the plural of some special nouns (regardless of whether the noun is grammatically masculine or feminine in the singular) is treated as feminine. Khalq (creation/created/people) is one such noun Now it is well known that Persian grammar (like Bengali) has no use for gender. Hence the well known confusions about the sex of the saqi (cup bearer), and aashiq (lover) in Urdu/Persian poetry. Hence also the hilarious confusion about the transmutations in the meaning of the phrase "Harjai" when it travels from Persian to Urdu/Hindustani/Punjabi. In Persian, Harjai (that which goes everywhere, is omnipresent) is a way of speaking about God. In Hindustani/Urdu/Punjabi - the word 'Harjai' because of the way in which the feminine ending 'i' is glossed together with a form of the infinitive 'jaana' (to go), when read in tandem with the qualifier 'Har' becomes - "she who goes everywhere/anywhere, with everyone/anyone" in other words - an euphemism for a female prostitute. In the slippage between languages, we can begin to see aspects of the divine even in a whore. And I like that. It bestows dignity and respect to sex work, and bespeaks a more civilized attitude to the person of the prostitute. But let us return to comparative grammar. Basically what we learn from this, and from other such examples is that Urdu and Arabic both have gender, while Persian does not. And generally, when Ideas travel from Arabic to Persian to Urdu we sometimes see the intermediate suspension of gender in the Persian, and the emergence of gender at either end. Thus the compound Arabo-Persian term 'Khalq e Khuda' (Khalq arabic, Khuda, persian) reverts to a (feminine) gendered reading, hence 'Raj Karegi (feminine verb ending) Khalq-e-Khuda' in Urdu, because Urdu i this case simply conforms to the rule of the feminine ending of the special plural noun 'Khalq' As far as I know Majma and Hujoom are not words in the same class as Khalq, probably (and I am speculating here) because they do not have to be read in terms of a theogony, which we cannot avoide doing when it comes to 'Khalq' Be whatever it may, we can safely say that in an Urdu-Persian-Arabic/slash islamicate context, when we invoke 'the people' the default invocation has a feminine register. I think it makes for an interesting way of challenging the patriarchal character of much of Islamicate culture (especially when this is done from within). I hope this helps clarify a few issues. Finally, a few remarks about what you have called 'Jargon'. Personally, I am a militant of the Plain English Movement, and when faced with the choice of using a common as opposed to a technical vocabulary, I try and use the former. However, there are occasions, like now, when the necessity of the precise delineation of a concept, requires us to use technical terms (with the proviso that we try and use them with clarity, for the sake of meaning, and not for effect). To insist on speaking and writing with an effort at clarity is not the same thing as writing in a way that is 'simple'. Sometimes 'clarity' requires a great deal of complexity. I am not a votary either of simplicity or of complexity in communication. It all depends on what we are talking about, and why we are speaking to one another. This list is a clearing house of ideas. Of observations, opinions, reflections and questions of all kind. As long as we abstain from uncalled for personal attacks (of which we have seen a few) I do not see why there should be one style (erudite or instinctive, learned or irreverent) on the list, or even in the postings a single person makes. So I would ask you what benefits we would receive if for instance, the tone of the communication here suddenly acquired a relative flatness, without precision or depth. I would be equally disappointed if, in the name of depth and presicion, we were to give up on spontaneous and instinctive writing, or humour and plain fun and games. I do not see why one has to take place at the expense of the other. Do you see any reasons why this should happen? And by the way, I do not quite see why writing while packing bags for Istanbul is either an ornament or a disadvantage to the fact of an attempt at communication. It is a fact. I do not have the privilege of sedentariness, my work takes me places, and makes me lose sleep. If we do not grudge anyone a situation of relative locational stability, then I fail to see why mobility should be such an issue. Mystified, I remain yours, Shuddha From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Sep 11 03:18:43 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:18:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On 'Khalq-e-Khuda' In-Reply-To: <46E5B9F8.3060708@sarai.net> References: <46E5B9F8.3060708@sarai.net> Message-ID: <46E5BBBB.10507@sarai.net> Dear All, There is an incomplete sentence in the second paragraph which might create some confusion. The sentence "Iqbal himself does this..." should read, "Iqbal himself makes this distinction in 'The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam'. 'The Islamic characterization of Allah is gender neutral.' is a separate and new sentence, and should be read as following after the reference to Iqbal. apologies for this error, Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Kirdar, > > many thanks for your thoughtful response to my rather playful and non > serious response to Ramaswamy regarding the phrase 'khalq-e-khuda'. I > will now try and respond with a degree of seriousness, in order to > respect the irritation that you express at the looseness with which > words and terms in urdu/persianate literature are often thrown around in > discussion. > > The phrase khalq-e-khuda has an interesting career. 'Khalq' is an arabic > term which denotes 'creation' (as Ramaswamy has pointed out), and is > distinguished from 'Amr' (direction) as being one of the two primary > functions of God - as 'Creator' and 'Director' of the universe. Iqbal > himself does this in his The Islamic characterization of Allah is gender > neutral. Contrary to what is commonly thought, 'Allah' in Islam is not a > 'father'. This is quite in opposition to the Christian concept of God, > where 'he' is quite strongly paternal. The Judaic 'YHWH' has a tendency > towards paternity (because of the scattered references to divine > 'paternity' in the Old Testament, but largely, for most variants of the > Jewish faith, the sex of god is immaterial. And to speak of him in > within an Islamic context in exculusively male terms is somewhat > inappropriate. This is underscored by the fact that the foremost of > divine attributes in Islam, mercy and compassion, expressed as 'rahman > ir rahim' comes from the Arabic root 'rhm' which stands for a complex of > meanings including womb, kinship, relationship etc. Clearly the > compassion and mercy of god is matricial. > > Similarly, the 'Ayat' or signs of God are expressed in a feminine sense, > and the 'Khalq' or creation are signs, aya of God's rahm. Humanity > springs from Allah's desire, and is a sign of Allah's love. That is why > the 'Khalq' can be seen as a part of a feminine complex of signification. > > In that sense, Khalq is what is 'made' or 'fashioned' by God. Hence, > humanity, people, are God's consummate creation, his Khalq. Hence the > phrase 'Khalq Allah' (God's creation - people) and Khalq-e-Khuda (same). > The phrases are often used to indicate the special relationship that > human beings have to god, whereby, even the simplest and poorest amongst > us, in Islamic thought, are special to God. It is a universalization > (and a universalizing, transcendental abrogation) of the older Judaic > principle of the 'chosen people'. In Islam, everyone is called, all are > chosen, but not all live up to the implications of the choice, or answer > the call. Thus, the phrase, 'Khalq-e-Khuda' is a conventionl marking of > the dignity of each human being, or human beings collectively, who, > regardless of station, are seen as standing in a special relationship to > God, requiring no mediation. In a way, it marks the very opposite of the > notion of 'purity' or claims to specialness, as marks of dignity. The > pure, imlplies the impure. The created however does not call into being > the image or the idea of the uncreated. In Islam, there is nothing > 'uncreated'. In other words, to be khalq, (arabic - > persian, creation, > one does not have to be khalis (arabic - clear as in clear water, > persian, pure). Createdness, mere being, and purity are two distinct > categories that do not require any relationship to one another. > > Islamic ideas of democracy/anarchy have always priviledged the fact that > the "Khalq Allah" are sovereign, because they bear the mark of divinely > ordained dignity. That is why Kingship (a marking of one human being as > superior to all others) has no scriptural sanction in Islam. > > However, it needs to be remembered that the phrase, 'Khayr-ul Khalq > Allah' (the greatest amongst Gods creations/people) is designated as a > singular way of identifying Mohammed as prophet. But he too represents > only the 'Insaan Kaamil', the man made perfect, and this too does not > mean that he is automatically raised above all humans. He too has to > listen to his companions, to his wives, indeed he is and can be > admonished by them when it becomes necessary. > > However, let us return to the word "Khalq" > > Khalq can be singular or plural. Man/Person or Persons/People. It is one > of the rare nominative cases in Arabic that does not change its ending > with a change from singular to plural. One infers its collective or > singulative status from the context. When someone says, 'Khayr-ul Khalq > Allah' it is clearly a reference to the singularity of the person of > Mohammed as Prophet. When one says 'Khalq Allah' or Khalq e Khuda' it > refers to an abstract collective entity - the people. > > In Arabic, the plural of some special nouns (regardless of whether the > noun is grammatically masculine or feminine in the singular) is treated > as feminine. Khalq (creation/created/people) is one such noun > > Now it is well known that Persian grammar (like Bengali) has no use for > gender. Hence the well known confusions about the sex of the saqi (cup > bearer), and aashiq (lover) in Urdu/Persian poetry. Hence also the > hilarious confusion about the transmutations in the meaning of the > phrase "Harjai" when it travels from Persian to Urdu/Hindustani/Punjabi. > > In Persian, Harjai (that which goes everywhere, is omnipresent) is a way > of speaking about God. In Hindustani/Urdu/Punjabi - the word 'Harjai' > because of the way in which the feminine ending 'i' is glossed together > with a form of the infinitive 'jaana' (to go), when read in tandem with > the qualifier 'Har' becomes - "she who goes everywhere/anywhere, with > everyone/anyone" in other words - an euphemism for a female prostitute. > In the slippage between languages, we can begin to see aspects of the > divine even in a whore. And I like that. It bestows dignity and respect > to sex work, and bespeaks a more civilized attitude to the person of the > prostitute. > > But let us return to comparative grammar. > Basically what we learn from this, and from other such examples is that > Urdu and Arabic both have gender, while Persian does not. And generally, > when Ideas travel from Arabic to Persian to Urdu we sometimes see the > intermediate suspension of gender in the Persian, and the emergence of > gender at either end. > > Thus the compound Arabo-Persian term 'Khalq e Khuda' (Khalq arabic, > Khuda, persian) reverts to a (feminine) gendered reading, hence 'Raj > Karegi (feminine verb ending) Khalq-e-Khuda' in Urdu, because Urdu i > this case simply conforms to the rule of the feminine ending of the > special plural noun 'Khalq' > > As far as I know Majma and Hujoom are not words in the same class as > Khalq, probably (and I am speculating here) because they do not have to > be read in terms of a theogony, which we cannot avoide doing when it > comes to 'Khalq' > > Be whatever it may, we can safely say that in an > Urdu-Persian-Arabic/slash islamicate context, when we invoke 'the > people' the default invocation has a feminine register. I think it makes > for an interesting way of challenging the patriarchal character of much > of Islamicate culture (especially when this is done from within). > > I hope this helps clarify a few issues. > > Finally, a few remarks about what you have called 'Jargon'. Personally, > I am a militant of the Plain English Movement, and when faced with the > choice of using a common as opposed to a technical vocabulary, I try and > use the former. However, there are occasions, like now, when the > necessity of the precise delineation of a concept, requires us to use > technical terms (with the proviso that we try and use them with clarity, > for the sake of meaning, and not for effect). > > To insist on speaking and writing with an effort at clarity is not the > same thing as writing in a way that is 'simple'. Sometimes 'clarity' > requires a great deal of complexity. I am not a votary either of > simplicity or of complexity in communication. It all depends on what we > are talking about, and why we are speaking to one another. > > This list is a clearing house of ideas. Of observations, opinions, > reflections and questions of all kind. As long as we abstain from > uncalled for personal attacks (of which we have seen a few) I do not see > why there should be one style (erudite or instinctive, learned or > irreverent) on the list, or even in the postings a single person makes. > So I would ask you what benefits we would receive if for instance, the > tone of the communication here suddenly acquired a relative flatness, > without precision or depth. I would be equally disappointed if, in the > name of depth and presicion, we were to give up on spontaneous and > instinctive writing, or humour and plain fun and games. I do not see why > one has to take place at the expense of the other. Do you see any > reasons why this should happen? > > And by the way, I do not quite see why writing while packing bags for > Istanbul is either an ornament or a disadvantage to the fact of an > attempt at communication. It is a fact. I do not have the privilege of > sedentariness, my work takes me places, and makes me lose sleep. If we > do not grudge anyone a situation of relative locational stability, then > I fail to see why mobility should be such an issue. > > Mystified, I remain > > yours, > > Shuddha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sen.gargi at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 03:21:39 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:21:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thoughts about Indo Centrism from Istanbul In-Reply-To: <46E48DAD.3030302@sarai.net> References: <46E48DAD.3030302@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear friends who fear and abhor Indo centrism, Shudhha, I read your post with the usual delight - of course waiting for and knowing I was not going to get - a detailed drawing of you experiencing a massage in the hamam. Nevertheless, I read, enjoyed, and went to bed BUT couldn't sleep because something kept niggling at me. And here I am, once again sleepless, writing... The niggling in my head is with the Indo Centrism that you, Naem and some others talk about. And to my mind the problem is fundamentally a conflation of various identities - national, cultural and artistic. I joined, no I jumped into the debate when I found that this list was drawing some heavy duty flak from a set of self-appointed guardians without imagination. My rage arose simply from the conscious, tactical attacks on an individual, an artist, and the levels to which the allegations stooped. Nevertheless, my reason for joining were two, first to defend free speech and artistic freedom, and two, to expose the ARKP+VD for what they really are: a bunch of bigots braying for blood.Now the incident that provoked me, and many more to write happened on the accidentally cartographed territory of India. But the debate is not about India at all. The debate to my mind is fundamentally about Art entering contested terrains. It's primarily about art and artistic freedom in areas of conflict. So it is incidentally about Jashn-e-azadi and Sanjay Kak but more about freedom or how we are allowed to engage with it. Nevertheless, it is also about the two as they - the film and the artist - are being evoked over and over. Replace these two names with Taslima Nasreen and 'Lajja' (Shame) or any other two from growing history of art and artists in exile/ silenced/ under threat/ forced to migrate/ killed and tell me has the contour of the debate sifted in any significant manner? I don't think so. So I refuse to buy the Indo Centric bullshit. Of course a lot of the talk has addressed the AR2KP+VD bunch. But I see that as a tactical encounter between freedom lovers and boundary drawers. And I think there are lesson in it for all. Few days ago I circulated a paper on this list that brings footsteps from history into the heart of the debate, (and if memory serves me that was in Germany - has India annexed Germany? Since when?) And i think while the gang and their string pullers ahve been somewhat successful on the ground, here on cyber-space they stand exposed. Now whether that is going to significantly change the ground reality I don't know, but i can't help but wonder, and I have on and off wondered - especially since Rana and Jeebesh started to explore terms, methods, potentials and visions of this list both as a site and object of engagement - would it have made any difference had there been a cyber community when Taslima Nasreen was forced to flee into exile? I don't know and perhaps its simply speculative and hence unnecessary. But I don't see any reason to be defensive about the debate. its simply about Art and Survival, and the survival of art. I am a citizen of India by law and a resident of earth by my political, intellectual and artistic inclination. I don't believe in borders and boundaries. nevertheless, I love living in the city of my residence. It carries the imprint of overlapping of histories, a history of deep love and deep conflict, od Sufism and invaders, of endless kings and equally endless resistance, together, simultaneously. I, like many others in this list, could have chosen to reside anywhere else in the world. But I chose this ancient land not because I am a national but because my life and spirit is deeply mingled with the chaotic culture of this city. (RIght now I am writing from another though.) I remember reading something by the author Arundhati Roy where she said that she couldn't live in the west simply because good manners and hyegine would kill her. I echo that sentiment. So even if, and when, we come to a stage of no borders, I might still end up living here - in love and hate, living as a nomad but compelled to return forever, to nourish the spirit by returning home. And the day dual/ triple/ multiple citizenship is allowed i will stand in queue for citizenship of Zanzibar, then Tanganika and then Peru while my politically correct friends are welcome to queue up for Palestine, South Africa and North Korea. And we'll visit each other too. But I will still live and return forever to this maddening, exhausting, aggressive, chaotic and profoundly contradictory city because I love it. Now where is the contradiction in the two? My deep love for a culture I love (and hate, but love's like that only) and my profound faith in no borders. The first shapes and nurtures my art and politics and the latter is my vision that nevertheless I will insist on seeing from the artist's lens - that is my personal inclination. So I'll choose Zanzibar because I lve the sound of the name and because I love the mystery of its overlapping history but will completely support someone's choice of Palestine or even New York. But what I can't stomach is someone telling me I have no choice, which I don't at present but I can still dream for future. And I will protest when anyone tries to stop me dreaming on the grounds of nation or boundaries of identity or any other. The other interesting aspect of the debate is in the tactics of resistance, resisting mobocracy with reason, logic, arguments and humour. And with hope and faith that the minds that think such dark, blinkered and perhaps indoctrinated thoughts, through their engagement with others on htis list, might just glimpse a different picture of the world that they are prepared to go to any lengths to build. And this space, this cyber-space, this perhaps is the only possible space that such encounters can take place, So I and many others write simply for that reason. And where in all this is Indo centrism? Is art attacked only in India? Does the clash of identity and freedom happen only in India? Is this the only time we have witnessed a tactical attack-art by-attacking-artist? What is so uniquely Indian about harassing/ accusing and falsely implicating the artist? Is this the first time that mobocracy has churned out the mantra of nation and terrorism to restrict and curtail the boundaries of speech? And to take that one step further, must I deny/ ignore/ hide the cultural context of that defining moment in history that brings Art and bigotry face to face? Is connecting cyber-chord allowed only after disconnecting the culture-chord? Is culture not political? To be a citizen of the world, to be relevant to others from other worlds, must I loose my cultural index and history? But how impossibly boring that would be. if i couldn't talk of things that shape and excite me, or those that pain and humiliate me, what can I talk about? And how deeply intolerant that position is. I can't talk about an attack on a film because it happens to be Indian! Really. How is this position - and the boundary that it delineates - different from the boundaries that ARKP+VD are hammering into our heads? Where's the difference? Except perhaps the Indian state/ nation/ nation state/ whatever and its completely discriminatory and big-brotherly attitude to neighbours. I am willing to apologise for the mis-endeavours of the state as I have once apologised for the use of Hindustani without providing translations, but how is any of this relevant when we are talking of Art and artistic freedom? If the attack on Art doesn't interest Naem and other I am fine with that, maybe we will connect on ecology, maybe human right, maybe even the Farakka barrage and the deeply unequal water-sharing treaty. but to trash the entire debate in which positions are being articulated and explored, face to face with those totally opposed to those precise positions - an articulation hitherto impossible but made possible through the internet - on the grounds of Indo centrism is deeply problematic if not totally prejudiced. I refuse to paint the recent debate as Indo centric as these problems exists in all nations, regions, cities, homes and perhaps minds. Gargi From ramganeshk at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 03:29:31 2007 From: ramganeshk at gmail.com (Ram Ganesh Kamatham) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:29:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Stone=2C_sights_and_sphincter_=28IFS?= =?utf-8?b?4oCTNik=?= Message-ID: Hi all! This month I've continued with my effort to open out the artistic process on the play I'm writing - Into Stone. By now you should have guessed that the Vikram and Betal idea is 'parked' - and I have been spending most of my time working on the idea that has tangentially emerged. This list has been pretty educational for me and I continue to be a happy lurker. Given the recent debate and the work I've been doing, I found the idea of stone being re-used fascinating. I'm also intrigued by the notion of polyvocality and the list has sparked off many thoughts in that direction too. SIF Updates 5 and 6 at: http://addledbraindump.blogspot.com/2007/08/into-stone-rehearsal-and-nonologue.html http://addledbraindump.blogspot.com/2007/09/stone-sights-and-sphincter.html For a completely inappropriate 'no-brainer oblique metaphorical response' to recent events do check out: http://addledbraindump.blogspot.com/2007/09/speech-aka-huh-wha-duh.html - some knowledge of tamil might be helpful (or not) and it's only half serious but I thought it should be mildly entertaining anyway... Warm regards Ram From sastry at cs.wisc.edu Tue Sep 11 04:23:34 2007 From: sastry at cs.wisc.edu (Subramanya Sastry) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:53:34 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 51 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E5CAEE.1050906@cs.wisc.edu> we wi wrote: > USA IS HAVING JUST 500 YEARS OF HISTORY > What do you have to say of the indigenous people that pre-dated the european settlers? > EUROPE --PROBABLY 3000 YEARS > ASIA - INDIA IS THE OLDEST > Akhand bharat yani INDIA -- pre harappan culture,history,wealth,knowledge And, while you are at it, could you care to enlighten us about African and Australian histories? Pardon my ignorance ... Hmm ... thinking about it ... I see why you might not have mentioned those two ... those Africans were anyway born to be slaves of the 500-year-old-history writers ... and if you ignore the aboriginals of Australia, that continent was full of thugs and scoundrels and prisoners and all ... never mind ... and so, that country / continent is essentially is a lineage of scoundrels ... I am beginning to understand how it works now ... :-) Subbu. From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 07:04:48 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz and AnalHaq In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0709071625q3591f20ft50f19224c072d07f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <571997.82012.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Yasir That was a very interesting post.Are you saying that sufism has been interpreted differently by different scholars,and hence there is no essential nature of sufism?In my simplistic understanding,sufism is something very personal;between an individual and God;to remove every obstacle/diversion between the two. Analhaq is a good summary statement of sufism. So when you say that Iqbal says "sufism was not an abstraction but lay in re-engaging with the collective community",I somehow find Iqbal's redefinition unpalatable. For example,as you yourself have said,Maududi cant be called sufi by any stretch of imagination. I hope you will excuse my limited understanding of the subject. My second question is about anal haq.I somehow find Faiz's usage of this phrase disingenuous.Faiz would have known its history,Im sure.What was his intention? If this is about a movement against dictatorship,why bring a phrase which has religious overtones and which is connected with apostasy into it? Thank you Rahul --- yasir ~ wrote: > KK and Rahul > > various people - muslim writers/"reformers" - have > reacted to worked > through, sufi ideas differently in hindustan. this > wasn't always to > reassert orthodoxy of the time, but also a somewhat > intertwined > attempt to engage with the collective. > > so you have mujjadid alf saani against chishtis and > shias, shah wali > ullah working with various schools including sufi > and shia, > > iqbal a scholar of arabic, persian metaphysics and > german idealism of > goethe, hegel and nietzche saying that the higher > stage of sufism was > not an abstraction but lay in re-engaging with the > collective > community, > > maududi (the other widely-read/known scholar with > iqbal) reacting > against his sufi legacy and the deoband school to > engage with the > collective socius and work towards asserting power > though electoral > party politics (such as in pakistan), > > and faiz, not unlike iqbal but in his own way) > re-worked urdu poetry's > mythological legacy (which is both metaphysivcal and > sufi) to engage > with society through his poetry - faiz being a > founding? member of the > progressive writers movement/association, whose > membership in general > was revolutionary communist. > > i was trying to sketch here, with my ignorance, as > helpful as that > might be, to illustrate how people have worked > variously through/with > sufi ideas. > > best > > yasir > > > > > On 9/6/07, Kshmendra Kaul : > > > > > > For me there is not much of a contradiction. Both > were revolutionaries. Both > > had a "sufi" bent of mind. Both seemed to > celeberate "khudi". > > > > In my opinion the seeming contradiction might > arise out of a limited > > understanding of Iqbal. More philosopher than > "Islamist" (also more > > Philosopher than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who > primarily stuck to the > > finest precepts from the "Quran" (somewhat a > Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not > > the work of an ordinary soul subscribing to the > "expected". > > > > In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on of > Jinnah) was more towards > > "a Nation for Muslims" rather than an "Islamic > (shariah) Nation". The 1940 > > Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent > Assembly speech are just 2 > > pointers. > > & Rahul Asthana : > > Faiz was a "dehria" communist,if you know what I > mean.Iqbal was an Islamist.Being a poet and a > philosopher is not contrary to being an > Islamist.So,in > that sense,there can be no greater contrast. > Iqbal's philosophy of religious existentialism- > mard-e-momin, khudi etc was based on Islam.I do not > see the same celebration of "khudi" in Faiz. > Also,Iqbal was not sufi either.Iqbal wrote a lot in > Persian.Poetry in every language has a soul of its > own.When you write in Persian,you cant but help > poets > like Hafez and Rumi whispering in your ear;and the > mysticism rubs off on you.That can be found in Iqbal > too.But,Iqbal's philosophy has nothing to do with > sufism.In fact,my impression is that in his dialog > Iblees o Jibrael, he is deriding sufis- > "Main khataktaa hoon dile yazdaan mein kaante ki > tarah, > tu faqat, alla hoo alla hoo ,alla hoo." > This IMO, is Nietzsche style existentialism. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From gyaltsenlama at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 07:22:56 2007 From: gyaltsenlama at gmail.com (e lama) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 07:22:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shaman in the city -- independent fellowship postings Message-ID: <9943513f0709101852v4b876bdfvd1f7cdb82f0ad707@mail.gmail.com> dear all had some server problems, rectified now please feel free to follow this link now www.etattoo7.com/sarai/home.html cheers gyaltsen From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 10:07:09 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:07:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiriyat - the face behind the veil Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709102137u74164647led6fe1431c93b393@mail.gmail.com> Kashmiriyat - the face behind the veil Author: *Sanjay Kaul* Publication: *SKMedia* Date: January 2003 Every time there is a spate of killings in Kashmir, almost everybody with any investment in the Kashmir situation rushes in to protest the incongruity of the event in the context of the fabled liberal traditions of Kashmir, or what is now fashionably also known as Kashmiriyat. It has been a while since Kashmiriyat began doing the rounds, to the extent I can't really say who or what actually coined it - it could've been a coinage of the Maharaja era; or even the JKLF's accidental discovery in arguing the cultural isolation of the Kashmiris, although why they would ignore Jammu-yat or Ladhaki-yat I don't know. It could also have been a National Conference plant, in arguing its case for greater autonomy for a very special people; it is a pliant enough word to be used by the rag-tag Hurriyat, in their hurry at becoming amenable to any international platform that seems available; and it is often used by the Indian political establishment across the floor when they want to rub in the distinction between this Kashmir and the one that is not this. The truth, in this case, is not somewhere in between but somewhere completely else. Kashmiriyat as an attempt to brand the socio-cultural ethos of the Kashmiris, as distinct from the Jammuites and the Ladhakis serves to not only undermine the other two cultural identities, but it accents dangerously the distinction of being a Kashmiri. That this is also patently incorrect is another matter, for how different is essential Kashmiriyat from Punjabiyat? What is it that makes the Kashmiri unique which does not the Jammuite or the Ladhakhi? Or even the Bihari or the Bengali? Is it the salubrious climate? Or is it some stunning example of secular behaviour that, some would hope, puts the Gujaratis to shame? No Sir. Kashmiriyat is only as unique or as average as any other socio-cultural component of the region. And in that too, it does not possess as flattering a lineage as say, Bengal, if only for a people's intellectual and other achievements. Kashmiriyat as tokenism, is yet another variation on the theme. When we want to propound the fictitious secularism of Kashmir, we use this variation wholeheartedly. But when it takes on meanings as a distinctive community of a people who have other politico-religious ambitions, we duck. This is precisely what Prime Minister Vajpayee had to skirt when he famously proposed 'insaaniyat' as a more encompassing paradigm to bringing peace in the Valley. And when it is used to speak of a distinct culture, its users usually fail to provide its context; if the Kashmiriyat of the Kashmir we still have with us is the liberal and benign variety, what of the Kashmir on the other side? Is that Kashmiriyat too or is it POKashmiriyat? For the world community this word is fast achieving a flexible quality of application depending on what the pressure points are. The West is beginning to like this word because it gives them the handle to rub in the distinctiveness of the Kashmir region, and therefore its problem, with no reference to the state, and without upsetting the Indian viewpoint. This dubious quality of the word, quite in keeping with the political character of the region, is the perfect way to talk in a variety of tongues about the same thing without anybody discovering the real intent. Then there is the quintessential spin-doctored version of Kashmiriyat, as a wonderfully benign, Sufistic version of Islam that is so unique that you find it nowhere else in the world. Quite right, that you find it nowhere else on earth - for where else do you find a land that has over the last 400 years, systematically expelled wave after wave of Kashmiri Pandits from its confines with no weapon other than religion. Here is a people who stand testimony to startling reduction in their count repeatedly - from over twenty-nine per cent of just Srinagar City in 1873, (Fredrick Drew; Census of 1873) to less than one per cent in the entire valley today...is this is the tradition of Kashmiryat? That a minuscule minority, representative of the last remnants of any figment of pluralism in the valley, could become the focus of such an organised onslaught over such a long time! - and we are still all keyed in to watching The Pianist win an Oscar for its Director, a Jew who purportedly survived the Holocaust. Hey! we have our very own holocaust here, and its called Kashmiriyat, but is anybody looking? The only constant, it seems, is that nobody seems to want to put the reality in its correct perspective - after all, if this sort of violence does not belong to Kashmir by culture or religion, why does it happen with such regular frequency? I can just about visualise the champions of India's secular traditions rising in an echo against what is implicit in this statement. But would they care to ask if this kind of a campaign can survive century after century without bearing in its soil a small seed of what makes all this possible? No it can't, for without the seed there can be no tree; without a nurturing climate there can't be fruition. There are commentators who want to wish away any finger-pointing at Kashmiris by pointing fingers at the north western borders - and the tradition continues even till today. But is the pusillanimous nature of the Kashmiri the only weak link that allows one morbid regime after another to find just the right environment in this place, all through its history, to practice such a long drawn cleansing? Be that as it may. To absolve Kashmiris, for what has happened in the valley, is to excuse a people their complicity in what has always happened in Kashmir. *Let us not allow the word to veil the truth*: *If Kashmiriyat represents liberalism, Aushwitz was **Disneyland.. * ** This article is available for distribution through internet or for printing world wide without prior approval, but no part of the same may be edited or the work presented in any version other than this and without acknowledging the Author's copyright to this work*. __._,_.___ From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 10:57:46 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:27:46 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] On Indocentrism & Taslima Nasreen Message-ID: >Gargi Sen wrote: >Dear friends who fear and abhor Indo centrism, ... >the Indo Centrism that you, Naem and some others talk about ... >I refuse to paint the recent debate as Indo centric ... >I refuse to buy the Indo Centric bullshit. Gargi, The CONTENT of the debate over the film or free speech or Kashmir was NOT what I identified as Indo-centric. Rather it was the manner in which the volume of that debate was squashing available space for of all other conversations inside Sarai. It seemed that suddenly the Sarai list was bcoming inhabited, occupied, and dominated by a (un)conscious Indian hegemony -- leaving no space for other debates and discussions within South Asia. Particularly, the manner in which the language of Sarai list recently slipped between English and Hindi/Urdu/Hindusthani without pausing for a second as to whether that alienates and pushes out a portion of the Sarai readership was part of what I was referring to. Actually the real issue is that the authors never even paused for a second as to whether the language was an issue at all... >Replace these two names with Taslima Nasreen and 'Lajja' (Shame) It's interesting that you have invoked Taslima, she is now, and has been for a while, a totem of Indian progressives. And she is also invoked to say "look we don't just talk about Indians!" The interesting thing about Taslima is the disproportionate amount of attention she always gets in India relative to others who have taken equally brave stances and remained invisible in the Indian context. Ahmod Sharif who declared as early as the 1970s that he was an atheist. Or Ahmod Sofa, who was both atheist and possibly gay (we have always surmised from reading the subtext of his text). Or Humayun Azad, who was anti-religious (Amar Obishyash) to the point that he was attacked by machette-wielding "Islamists" (and eventually died in Germany). Or Rahnuma Ahmed (Islami Chintar Punorpothon) who has been debating Islam & the patriarchy for last 10 years. Or Farida Akhter (Ubinig), who has been a figure in globalization/feminist battles. Or Salimullah Khan. Or Faruk Wasif. The list is actually endless-- Swadhin or Manosh can jump in with other names. But the reason Taslima is often the ONLY example invoked in an Indian context is because her story is so intricately linked with Indian patronage-- with the Indian progressives' idea of who they themselves are as a beacon to South Asia (a rescuing force that will save all South Asia from itself). Especially within the Taslima story is the idea of Indian Progressives (and not so progressive, more on that in a few lines) rescuing and sheltering her from the savages next door. Very early on, Taslima, alienated and broke ranks with the Bangladeshi feminist community. A key moment was in an interview where she said "I am the first proper feminist in Bangladesh." When a startled interviewer asked her what she then thought of Begum Rokeya (who had written "Sultana's Dream" almost a century ago), Taslima replied "Begum Rokeya, she was all right, but she had many limitations..." (note: not exact, from memory) A similar sentiment imbued her approach to the entire feminist infrastructure in Bangladesh, always positioning herself as "above" all this. [I write this as someone who found her "Nirbachitho Column" collection like an incredibly valuable interjection into the Bangla patriarchy and appreciated much of her work, including "Lajja".] Around the time of "Lajja", Taslima's trajectory changed. She had already received the Kolkatha "Ananda" award, something that heightened her sense of distance with the local community of writers, and kinship instead with the Kolkata bhodrolok chokro. From here on Taslima's story is often a story vis-a-vis India. It was first and foremost the BJP that pounced on "Lajja" and started making thousands of photocopies and spreading them throughout the country. It was the BJP that started funding translations into Hindi/Urdu. From here on, Taslima became something championed by India, which increased the antagonism towards her in Bangladesh. Allies of Taslima repeatedly asked her to at the least distance herself from the BJP translations, but she refused to do so. It was on Indian TV that Taslima gave her famous interview-- designed for maximum shock, holding the Quran in one hand, cigarette in other, and saying [to an Indian microphone, all this matters] "the Quran needs to be revised." The furore that followed: death threats, fatwas, nonsensical spouting by the mullahs, obscures the fact that India-Bangladesh tensions were as much part of this story as was Islam (and of course, conflated). Meanwhile our progressive mahals were aghast that years of careful work had been derailed by Taslima's "stuntbaji" on Indian TV-- they now watched as the maulvis they had spent years coralling into the mosques were now on the offensive, taking over the entire city with strikes. Taslima of course famously went into exile in Europe, but soon found those to be unwelcoming homes (there was a particular shrill repetitiveness, and lack of tailoring-to-audience, that made her un-useful once she was no longer "under attack by fundamentalists"). Eventually she moved to India. Eventually Hyderabad happened, and eventually the Sarai debate around here. Taslima is the example that is always debated in these forums, because similar to the western relationship with Iranian reformers, there may be an Indian role in resolving, concluding, rescuing her narrative. But stories that happen inside our borders, where there is no Indian oversight/rescue/recognition role, those seem to always be under the radar. (to be continued, I hope....) From aman.am at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 12:17:10 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:17:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thoughts about Indo Centrism from Istanbul In-Reply-To: References: <46E48DAD.3030302@sarai.net> Message-ID: <995a19920709102347w45f982fbn47ba286bc17d6151@mail.gmail.com> Further, Turkey too, has had a troubled relationship with its idea of turkishness. The recent trials of Orhan Pamuk -(of Istanbul and My name is Red) and Elif Shafak (The bastard of Istanbul) on grounds of insulting the Republic. To quote from Wikipedia "In June 2005, Turkey introduced a new penal code including Article 301, which states: "A person who, being a Turk, explicitly insults the Republic or Turkish Grand National Assembly, shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months to three years." Pamuk was retroactively charged with violating this law in the interview he had given four months earlier. In October, after the prosecution had begun, Pamuk reiterated his views in a speech given during an award ceremony in Germany: "I repeat, I said loud and clear that one million Armenians and 30,000 Kurds were killed in Turkey."" Now that i put this down, i'm not sure of the point i am trying to make - but one could say that most nations/states/communities and even people - seem to have their own spaces of the "unspeakable" - and that the unspeakable is rarely consistent. Now that the storm has blown over - perhaps we could engage with the minor currents that have been swirling around for a while, but were passed by in the heat of debate. I would just like to try and explore the idea of the "unspeakable" - not just in the realm of censorship - either by states or pressure groups. Its a question that has troubled me for a while - i dont claim to have resolved it. I often travel on work to different parts of North-central India, and a lot of my work as a journalist involves talking to people about grief, loss and intimidation by the state and those it patronizes. The language of narrating grief often tiptoes dangerously along the boundary of the unspeakable, where the interviewee struggles to convey an experience - yet at the same time strives to emerge from the interview with his or her dignity intact. The narration of a moment of one's own powerlessness is perhaps the hardest thing that anyone can do. So how does an artist/author/journalist deal with this world - how do they convey the idea of the unspeakable? What is their responsibility to the sources of their stories? And how does this tie in to the idea of the fearless artist or intrepid journalist who dares speak a truth that no-one else will? Why will no one else speak that truth? What will that truth do to those who have to live with its consequences everyday? And is this truth abt the artist, journalist or film-maker, or is it the truth about a person who he or she has only tangential affiliation to? A. On 9/11/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > Dear friends who fear and abhor Indo centrism, > Shudhha, I read your post with the usual delight - of course waiting for and > knowing I was not going to get - a detailed drawing of you experiencing a > massage in the hamam. Nevertheless, I read, enjoyed, and went to bed BUT > couldn't sleep because something kept niggling at me. And here I am, once > again sleepless, writing... > > The niggling in my head is with the Indo Centrism that you, Naem and some > others talk about. And to my mind the problem is fundamentally a conflation > of various identities - national, cultural and artistic. > > I joined, no I jumped into the debate when I found that this list was > drawing some heavy duty flak from a set of self-appointed guardians without > imagination. My rage arose simply from the conscious, tactical attacks on an > individual, an artist, and the levels to which the allegations stooped. > Nevertheless, my reason for joining were two, first to defend free speech > and artistic freedom, and two, to expose the ARKP+VD for what they really > are: a bunch of bigots braying for blood.Now the incident that provoked me, > and many more to write happened on the accidentally cartographed territory > of India. But the debate is not about India at all. > > The debate to my mind is fundamentally about Art entering contested > terrains. It's primarily about art and artistic freedom in areas of > conflict. So it is incidentally about Jashn-e-azadi and Sanjay Kak but more > about freedom or how we are allowed to engage with it. Nevertheless, it is > also about the two as they - the film and the artist - are being evoked over > and over. Replace these two names with Taslima Nasreen and 'Lajja' (Shame) > or any other two from growing history of art and artists in exile/ silenced/ > under threat/ forced to migrate/ killed and tell me has the contour of the > debate sifted in any significant manner? > > I don't think so. So I refuse to buy the Indo Centric bullshit. > > Of course a lot of the talk has addressed the AR2KP+VD bunch. But I see that > as a tactical encounter between freedom lovers and boundary drawers. And I > think there are lesson in it for all. Few days ago I circulated a paper on > this list that brings footsteps from history into the heart of the debate, > (and if memory serves me that was in Germany - has India annexed Germany? > Since when?) And i think while the gang and their string pullers ahve been > somewhat successful on the ground, here on cyber-space they stand exposed. > Now whether that is going to significantly change the ground reality I don't > know, but i can't help but wonder, and I have on and off wondered - > especially since Rana and Jeebesh started to explore terms, methods, > potentials and visions of this list both as a site and object of engagement > - would it have made any difference had there been a cyber community when > Taslima Nasreen was forced to flee into exile? I don't know and perhaps its > simply speculative and hence unnecessary. > > But I don't see any reason to be defensive about the debate. its simply > about Art and Survival, and the survival of art. > > I am a citizen of India by law and a resident of earth by my political, > intellectual and artistic inclination. I don't believe in borders and > boundaries. nevertheless, I love living in the city of my residence. It > carries the imprint of overlapping of histories, a history of deep love and > deep conflict, od Sufism and invaders, of endless kings and equally endless > resistance, together, simultaneously. I, like many others in this list, > could have chosen to reside anywhere else in the world. But I chose this > ancient land not because I am a national but because my life and spirit is > deeply mingled with the chaotic culture of this city. (RIght now I am > writing from another though.) I remember reading something by the author > Arundhati Roy where she said that she couldn't live in the west simply > because good manners and hyegine would kill her. I echo that sentiment. So > even if, and when, we come to a stage of no borders, I might still end up > living here - in love and hate, living as a nomad but compelled to return > forever, to nourish the spirit by returning home. And the day dual/ triple/ > multiple citizenship is allowed i will stand in queue for citizenship of > Zanzibar, then Tanganika and then Peru while my politically correct friends > are welcome to queue up for Palestine, South Africa and North Korea. And > we'll visit each other too. But I will still live and return forever to this > maddening, exhausting, aggressive, chaotic and profoundly contradictory city > because I love it. > > Now where is the contradiction in the two? My deep love for a culture I love > (and hate, but love's like that only) and my profound faith in no borders. > > The first shapes and nurtures my art and politics and the latter is my > vision that nevertheless I will insist on seeing from the artist's lens - > that is my personal inclination. So I'll choose Zanzibar because I lve the > sound of the name and because I love the mystery of its overlapping history > but will completely support someone's choice of Palestine or even New York. > But what I can't stomach is someone telling me I have no choice, which I > don't at present but I can still dream for future. And I will protest when > anyone tries to stop me dreaming on the grounds of nation or boundaries of > identity or any other. > > The other interesting aspect of the debate is in the tactics of resistance, > resisting mobocracy with reason, logic, arguments and humour. And with hope > and faith that the minds that think such dark, blinkered and perhaps > indoctrinated thoughts, through their engagement with others on htis list, > might just glimpse a different picture of the world that they are prepared > to go to any lengths to build. And this space, this cyber-space, this > perhaps is the only possible space that such encounters can take place, So I > and many others write simply for that reason. > > And where in all this is Indo centrism? > > Is art attacked only in India? Does the clash of identity and freedom happen > only in India? Is this the only time we have witnessed a tactical attack-art > by-attacking-artist? What is so uniquely Indian about harassing/ accusing > and falsely implicating the artist? Is this the first time that mobocracy > has churned out the mantra of nation and terrorism to restrict and curtail > the boundaries of speech? > > And to take that one step further, must I deny/ ignore/ hide the cultural > context of that defining moment in history that brings Art and bigotry face > to face? Is connecting cyber-chord allowed only after disconnecting the > culture-chord? Is culture not political? To be a citizen of the world, to be > relevant to others from other worlds, must I loose my cultural index and > history? But how impossibly boring that would be. if i couldn't talk of > things that shape and excite me, or those that pain and humiliate me, what > can I talk about? > > And how deeply intolerant that position is. I can't talk about an attack on > a film because it happens to be Indian! Really. How is this position - and > the boundary that it delineates - different from the boundaries that ARKP+VD > are hammering into our heads? Where's the difference? Except perhaps the > Indian state/ nation/ nation state/ whatever and its completely > discriminatory and big-brotherly attitude to neighbours. I am willing to > apologise for the mis-endeavours of the state as I have once apologised for > the use of Hindustani without providing translations, but how is any of this > relevant when we are talking of Art and artistic freedom? > > If the attack on Art doesn't interest Naem and other I am fine with that, > maybe we will connect on ecology, maybe human right, maybe even the Farakka > barrage and the deeply unequal water-sharing treaty. but to trash the entire > debate in which positions are being articulated and explored, face to face > with those totally opposed to those precise positions - an articulation > hitherto impossible but made possible through the internet - on the grounds > of Indo centrism is deeply problematic if not totally prejudiced. > > I refuse to paint the recent debate as Indo centric as these problems exists > in all nations, regions, cities, homes and perhaps minds. > > Gargi > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 12:48:53 2007 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults... How about a comic book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <665742.45217.qm@web60616.mail.yahoo.com> I am one more usually silent reader list. And this time I have a serious suggestion on the debate over Kashmir, Nationalism and Sanjay Kak that occupied prime space on this list over the last few weeks... Can we produce a comic book out of the assaults and the responses? This could be in print as well as a soft copy... I suggests it could be called an 'Idiots Guide to Fascism' or alternately 'How to End Debates Manual' depending on which use you want to put it to. I don't think that this debate is useless or has side-tracked important survival (hunger, poverty etc) issues and should thus be abandoned. These questions are in fact at the heart of our impotency in addressing the problems of survival. Besides the entertainment value, I think the debate has brought in some disarming public confessions of hate and produced some of the most brilliant responses on fundamental questions of identity. --- Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > Thanks Rana for beginning a reflective thread. > > This is probably a rare instance in the list, when a > big "event" is > not the center of discussion. List usually does well > with "big > events", as it ensures, that many drop in a few > lines about what they > feel, or what they oppose or what can be done etc. A > kind of public > positioning. (Beslan was an exception) > > But in this instance it was about our ordinary ideas > of how we think > our belonging, our social practices and ways of > being with others. > Unfortunately it became too narrowly 'indo-centric" > and thinking > about suffering became rhetorical. If this list can > produce some > serious thought on "suffering" and "being with > others' - and how we > deal with it in our ordinary life, it may contribute > to our > intellectual life in a substantial way. > > For me, the last few weeks have made me wonder, as > to how far a > thought can travel if it gets tied to polemics and > self-righteous > indignation. The loads of personal and historical > material that has > come to this list in this weeks is amazing, and i > hope that those > survive and does not get buried in the after taste > of polemics and > condemnation. > > Will think about your point on disgust. > > warmly > jeebesh > > On 08-Sep-07, at 4:30 PM, Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > It's been an interesting few weeks on this list. > Some might say > > "We've > > never had it so good" - since there have been far > more posts, with far > > more responses, than usual. > > > > Others might feel that this has been the > Reader-list's lowest ever > > point > > - its usual solemn tone and good opinions giving > way to a running > > sit-com of ad feminam assaults. > > > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at > stake, and the enormous > > gulfs of understanding between some of the > contributors, I have to say > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers > on the list. People > > have held themselves back from expressing outright > disgust, or from > > violent attacks. > > > > It seems that there's a sense that one can't say > just anything. Or if > > one did, it would erode the fabric of the list. > People have to > > balance > > their own irritation or repugnance with a desire > to uphold the > > hospitality and vitality of the list. > > > > I think this says something very positive about > the culture of a list. > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. Peter Ustinov ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 12:58:48 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:58:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults... How about a comic book? In-Reply-To: <665742.45217.qm@web60616.mail.yahoo.com> References: <665742.45217.qm@web60616.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709110028n3b7a7326uffc293500d2307eb@mail.gmail.com> What were the assault and what were the responses ? P of AR2KP On 9/11/07, gowhar fazli wrote: > > I am one more usually silent reader list. And this > time I have a serious suggestion on the debate over > Kashmir, Nationalism and Sanjay Kak that occupied > prime space on this list over the last few weeks... > > Can we produce a comic book out of the assaults and > the responses? This could be in print as well as a > soft copy... I suggests it could be called an 'Idiots > Guide to Fascism' or alternately 'How to End Debates > Manual' depending on which use you want to put it to. > > I don't think that this debate is useless or has > side-tracked important survival (hunger, poverty etc) > issues and should thus be abandoned. These questions > are in fact at the heart of our impotency in > addressing the problems of survival. > > Besides the entertainment value, I think the debate > has brought in some disarming public confessions of > hate and produced some of the most brilliant responses > on fundamental questions of identity. > > --- Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > > > Thanks Rana for beginning a reflective thread. > > > > This is probably a rare instance in the list, when a > > big "event" is > > not the center of discussion. List usually does well > > with "big > > events", as it ensures, that many drop in a few > > lines about what they > > feel, or what they oppose or what can be done etc. A > > kind of public > > positioning. (Beslan was an exception) > > > > But in this instance it was about our ordinary ideas > > of how we think > > our belonging, our social practices and ways of > > being with others. > > Unfortunately it became too narrowly 'indo-centric" > > and thinking > > about suffering became rhetorical. If this list can > > produce some > > serious thought on "suffering" and "being with > > others' - and how we > > deal with it in our ordinary life, it may contribute > > to our > > intellectual life in a substantial way. > > > > For me, the last few weeks have made me wonder, as > > to how far a > > thought can travel if it gets tied to polemics and > > self-righteous > > indignation. The loads of personal and historical > > material that has > > come to this list in this weeks is amazing, and i > > hope that those > > survive and does not get buried in the after taste > > of polemics and > > condemnation. > > > > Will think about your point on disgust. > > > > warmly > > jeebesh > > > > On 08-Sep-07, at 4:30 PM, Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > It's been an interesting few weeks on this list. > > Some might say > > > "We've > > > never had it so good" - since there have been far > > more posts, with far > > > more responses, than usual. > > > > > > Others might feel that this has been the > > Reader-list's lowest ever > > > point > > > - its usual solemn tone and good opinions giving > > way to a running > > > sit-com of ad feminam assaults. > > > > > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at > > stake, and the enormous > > > gulfs of understanding between some of the > > contributors, I have to say > > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers > > on the list. People > > > have held themselves back from expressing outright > > disgust, or from > > > violent attacks. > > > > > > It seems that there's a sense that one can't say > > just anything. Or if > > > one did, it would erode the fabric of the list. > > People have to > > > balance > > > their own irritation or repugnance with a desire > > to uphold the > > > hospitality and vitality of the list. > > > > > > I think this says something very positive about > > the culture of a list. > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of > dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. > > Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a > habit. > > Peter Ustinov > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From pukar at pukar.org.in Sat Sep 8 00:40:53 2007 From: pukar at pukar.org.in (pukar at pukar.org.in) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:10:53 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] PUKAR Launches New Website Message-ID: <648eccd38ed74090a94920e6aecde9c1@mail3.global-nameservers.com> Dear Friends: It is with great pleasure we announce the launching of the new website for PUKAR on September 6, 2007! www.pukar.org.in We have tried to make the website more user friendly and it will continue to evolve as PUKAR ventures into new horizons. We request you to visit the website and share your comments with us. The PUKAR Team PUKAR (Partners for Urban Knowledge Action and Research) Address:: 1-4, 2nd Floor, Kamanwala Chambers, Sir P. M. Road, Fort, Mumbai 400 001 Telephone:: +91 (22) 6574 8152 Fax:: +91 (22) 6664 0561 Email:: pukar at pukar.org.in Website:: www.pukar.org.in PUKAR is an innovative and experimental initiative that aims to contribute to a global debate about urbanization and globalization. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From delhifilmarchive at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 18:45:52 2007 From: delhifilmarchive at gmail.com (Delhi Film Archive [DFA]) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 18:45:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] [DFA: 20] Screening - Naina Jogin In-Reply-To: <5a4334630709090614p2f975630lf288a19c5b0628be@mail.gmail.com> References: <5a4334630709090614p2f975630lf288a19c5b0628be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5a4334630709090615t43d58cdcl2b66486881fdafc@mail.gmail.com> *Delhi Film Archive with History Society Ramjas College * present a season of documentaries *NAINA JOGIN (THE ASCETIC EYE)* 59 minutes A film by Praveen Kumar (present for the screening) * * 13 September, 2007 at 1:15 pm Venue: Seminar Room, Ramjas College, Delhi University * NAINA JOGIN (THE ASCETIC EYE) * In Madhubani, people struggle against trying circumstances to eke out a living. Many have taken to painting to survive. Motifs having a strong ritual basis were painted on the cow dung coated walls of huts but now they are done on paper. The film Naina Jogin is about these painters, their circumstances, their inspirations and their works. The central line of the film is the *Khobbar* ritual in which a newly married couple spend three days and nights in the painted *Kohbbar Ghar *before they may consummate their marraige*.* This vigil over desire provides the film with a mysterious energy... --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Please DO NOT REPLY to the sender. To contact the MODERATOR: delhifilmarchive [at] gmail.com To UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to delhifilmarchive-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com More OPTIONS are on the web: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/delhifilmarchive/ Visit our WEBSITE: www.delhifilmarchive.org See the LIST OF FILMS in the Archive: http://www.delhifilmarchive.org/archive.html -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 23:07:09 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:07:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] film by Sarah Singh Message-ID: <47e122a70709071037r5b4bff8enff25182f9a64589f@mail.gmail.com> The Sky Below (75 min; 2007; Dvcam; English) 12/09/2007 18.30 pm IIC , Delhi A film by Sarah Singh who will introduce the screening From the shared, ancient history of the Indus Civilization, the people of the Northwest area of the Subcontinent have connections that go back millennia. In 1947, the partition of this region left a legacy of suspicion and a profound inability to reconcile this political divide. From Kutch to Kashmir and from Karachi to the Khyber Pass, some of the ground realities of the lingering fallout are explored; and also, if reconciliation is possible between two countries with interwoven histories…some 60 years of strained relations and the unresolved crisis in Kashmir. From both sides of the border, first - person stories from the time of Partition are recounted. A former terrorist, politicians, royalty, ordinary citizens, historians, and others share their insights of the past, present, and future of this volatile, yet emerging South Asian economic block Folk singers recorded live in their surroundings, found footage, verite and conceptual location shooting, contemporary and archival still photography are merged to emphasize the contrasted realities which compose this culturally connected, yet politically disconnected , region Screening will be followed by a discussion (Collaboration: Seher) -- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From turbulence at turbulence.org Thu Sep 6 22:35:25 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:05:25 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] "Nothing Happens" Live Now! Call for Participation Message-ID: <008601c7f0a8$314a18a0$93de49e0$@org> "Nothing Happens" Live Now! Call for Participation Nurit Bar-Shai, with Rich Miller, Yishay Schwerd, Zach Lieberman and John Schimmel http://turbulence.org/Works/nothingHappens/ OK Center for Contemporary Art: CyberArts 2007 Ars Electronica Festival, Linz, Austria September 6 - October 14, 2007 "Nothing Happens" is a networked online performance in which the viewers work together to make a series of objects tip over. The performance consists of three acts, which are centered on staged environments - a high shelf, a deserted corner, and a cluttered tabletop. Each scene contains a central protagonist, respectively: a cardboard box, a clear pint glass full of water, and a wooden chair. In all three acts, web-enabled physical devices controlled by the viewer's clicks make these objects tip over. In addition, each change is recorded as a snapshot-image, creating not only an archive of the work, but a collective creative result: a stop-motion-animation sequence, in which viewers can browse through the entire history of the performance both during it and after its conclusion. Nothing Happens received a Prix Ars Electronica Honorary Mention in the Hybrid Art category. "Nothing Happens - a performance in three acts" is a 2005 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc., (aka Ether-Ore) for its Turbulence web site. It was made possible with funding from The Greenwall Foundation. Additional support was provided by the OK Center Linz, the Israeli Cultural Foreign Ministry, ITP/NYU and 3rd Ward. Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From kranenbu at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 11 14:28:40 2007 From: kranenbu at xs4all.nl (Rob van Kranenburg) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:58:40 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] ragpicking or recycling: from squattercity Message-ID: How's this for an interesting fact: "More than 95 percent of New Delhi has no formal system of house-to-house garbage collection, so it falls to the city's ragpickers, one of India's poorest and most marginalized groups, to provide this basic service for fellow citizens." That the situation in India's capital city, according to dispatch from the International Herald Tribune. http://squattercity.blogspot.com/2007/09/ragpicking-or-recycling.html http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/02/asia/rag.php From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue Sep 11 15:10:56 2007 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:40:56 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] ragpicking or recycling: from squattercity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11-Sep-07, at 1:58 PM, Rob van Kranenburg wrote: > > How's this for an interesting fact: "More than 95 percent of New > Delhi has no formal system of house-to-house garbage collection, so > it falls to the city's ragpickers, one of India's poorest and most > marginalized groups, to provide this basic service for fellow > citizens." fairly accurate. not sure about the percentage though. ragpicking is part of a intricate network of cleaning and recycling. it has an economics to it. formal forms of garbage collection by the municipality faces the problem of "authorized garbage" and "un-authorized garbage" based on the way a settlement is marked in the vocuabulary of the city planners. Same with the "sewage" disposal. But the bigger question one can ask is do we need formal (mostly centralized) systems of garbage and sewage collection and disposal? or maybe if the thinking shifts to the "informal" as an site of opportunity to think with other modes of doing things, we may be looking at the situation differently. All attentive, centralised infrastructures will not work any more in many many places in the world. It's days have passed. Better to think with what is available than live in a perpetually deferred zone of thinking. > one of India's poorest and most > marginalized groups, to provide this basic service for fellow > citizens." Well most write-ups on india dealing with the poor ends with this line. warmly jeebesh From kranenbu at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 11 14:56:56 2007 From: kranenbu at xs4all.nl (Rob van Kranenburg) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:26:56 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] ragpicking or recycling: from squattercity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28406C48-1478-4BCD-8823-C4D912E40D83@xs4all.nl> Hi Jeebesh, >> fairly accurate. not sure about the percentage though. I should have made more clear that i'm just citing Robert Neuwirth, forgot the " ". > > But the bigger question one can ask is do we need formal (mostly > centralized) systems of garbage and sewage collection and disposal? > or maybe if the thinking shifts to the "informal" as an site of > opportunity to think with other modes of doing things, we may be > looking at the situation differently. I completely agree, and would very much like to think about local manufacturing with http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/WebHome and recycling with http://metareciclagem.org/drupal/livro/english as indeed > All attentive, centralised infrastructures will not work any more in > many many places in the world. It's days have passed. Better to think > with what is available than live in a perpetually deferred zone of > thinking. these centralized systems will start crumbling in the west soon and to then give away your main assets which are everyday personal negociations with insecurity, unsafety and decision making, would make no sense, Greetings, Rob From sharan at sarai.net Tue Sep 11 15:56:13 2007 From: sharan at sarai.net (sharan at sarai.net) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:56:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pedagogical Faultlines workshop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <370b7f51768cfb16ed0b3da80aa7cdd6@sarai.net> Dear Ramaswamy, Yes, it would indeed be a pelasure to organise a similar workshop in India at some point. In the meanwhile, we hope to be able to widely share the presentations of the current workshop and look forward to an interesting exchange. Regards, Dipu Sarai Programme, CSDS On 11:41 pm 09/09/07 hpp at vsnl.com wrote: > Dear Sarai Friends > > I read with interest the announcement of the worshop on International > Workshop on Alternatives in Education (September 21 & 22, 2007, > Amsterdam). I have shared this with my friends and associates who > would be interested. > > As someone with direct and close interest and involvement in several > of the issues proposed to be discussed - I wish I was able to attend. > Unfortunately my prior engagements at the same time rule that out. > > I think I would not be alone in wishing that a workshop be > subsequently organised in India shortly after, where the Amsterdam > workshop experience could be shared with people here, and also sought > to be carried forward in action. As SARAI seems to also be involved > in this workshop, I hope this request would be considered by SARAI. > > Thank you. > > Yours sincerely > > V Ramaswamy > Hony Chairman > Howrah Pilot Project > Priya Manna Basti, Shibpur > Howrah, West Bengal > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ravig64 at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 15:56:59 2007 From: ravig64 at gmail.com (Ravi Agarwal) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:56:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: ragpicking or recycling: from squattercity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Over 100,000 people connected with waste picking, collecting and recycling over 15% of the cities 7000 mt of waste dialy, are 'illegal',' have no recognition (except through NGO efforts) , and are now being threatened of their livlihoods through large scale corporatisation of waste collection and waste treatment with projects worth hundreds of crores of rupees. What was an individual model of sustainance is now becoming a centralised model of a 'waste business' on the lines of cities in Europe and the US. How do we intgegrate the question of ecology, environment and sustainability in the question of people's lives. their land and the flux of a fast changing city when we are confronted with 'successful' corporate models of massive capital and powerful ownerships? Where is the space to counter such dominences of such scale, and what are the terms of engagement, when social structures and ecological questions are intermeshed? I think there is no parallel for this, leaving our activists lost and others too overwhemled to propose a way ahead. ravi agarwal On 9/11/07, Rob van Kranenburg wrote: > > > How's this for an interesting fact: "More than 95 percent of New > Delhi has no formal system of house-to-house garbage collection, so > it falls to the city's ragpickers, one of India's poorest and most > marginalized groups, to provide this basic service for fellow citizens." > > That the situation in India's capital city, according to dispatch > from the International Herald Tribune. > > http://squattercity.blogspot.com/2007/09/ragpicking-or-recycling.html > http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/02/asia/rag.php > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- -- From gora at sarai.net Tue Sep 11 16:06:46 2007 From: gora at sarai.net (Gora Mohanty) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:06:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pedagogical Faultlines workshop In-Reply-To: <370b7f51768cfb16ed0b3da80aa7cdd6@sarai.net> References: <370b7f51768cfb16ed0b3da80aa7cdd6@sarai.net> Message-ID: <1189507006.32683.38.camel@anubis> On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 15:56 +0530, sharan at sarai.net wrote: > Dear Ramaswamy, > > Yes, it would indeed be a pelasure to organise a similar workshop in > India at some point. In the meanwhile, we hope to be able to widely > share the presentations of the current workshop and look forward to an > interesting exchange. [...] I would second that, especially as the local linux user community, people from JNU, and other places have been discussing similar issues, and there was great interest in making a difference on the front of education. There are also other people in CSDS who have been conversing with others in and around India, and would certainly be interested. Let us slowly start discussing specifics. Regards, Gora From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 16:11:17 2007 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:11:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On 'Khalq-e-Khuda' In-Reply-To: <46E5B9F8.3060708@sarai.net> References: <46E5B9F8.3060708@sarai.net> Message-ID: <73eb60090709110341v752154f9w69757a6764f196ba@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha You are lucky that your job takes you places and provides you all the time in the world to research and write lengthy notes on Sarai. I am a bit hard pressed for time and would only try to scratch from whatever my old memory I have on this issue. Your long treatise comparing Urdu/Persian/Arabic/Bengali is impressive, but you are unneccesarily bent upon connecting the word khalq with Khuda. What I am trying to say is that the world khalq has been used in many other simpler and mundane contexts too. Khalq is not always a creation of God (literally it maybe). If I write a phrase such as "Khalqat hai tamashai" (which is incidentally from a couplet) would it always mean "the creation of god is the spectator"? No, I could probably be writing about the spectators of a football match. Why do we have to seek and find divine/ethereal meanings in every word. By the way, who says that khalq can be both singular or plural? Can you give me an example of the use of it as both? I am not convinced with your example. And where on earth did you find the phrase "Khalq Allah" being used?? I maybe ignorant but I would like to know a reference for my own knowledge. Also, what are you going to do about words like Ikhlaq or Ikhlaqiyaat (Ethics) which come from the same root - that doesn't carry the nuance of God's creation. It would be interesting to read the older down-to earth poets such Nazeer, Wali and others to see the variety of context in which they have used both khalqat/makhlooq as well as the the gender specifications of concepts. Forget about the older classicist poets - some of today's great Urdu/Persian/Islamicate poets are using these words in many different contexts. Any way, this Karega/karegi is a non-issue to me, not because I am a Urdu-wallah (which I am not), but because it doesn't lead us anywhere. I know Sarai is a clearinghouse of ideas, but at times our tangents are so multi-directional that one loses the fun in trying to pick up the threads - so much time gets wasted here - I would rather spend that time writing poetry or listening to good music. I apologize if my comment about your reporting from Istambol or elsewhere rubs you on wrong side - I was only wondering if your comments would carry the same weight if you wrote sitting in nowhere (or in Punjabi Bagh). I have no problem if you wrote a travelogue from Istambol - I really did enjoy those portions in your post. But when you try to give a looking-down-upon-Delhi-from-Istambul perspective on the issues at hand here, then it sounds a bit show-off. Any way, enjoy yourself. KS On 9/11/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Kirdar, > > many thanks for your thoughtful response to my rather playful and non > serious response to Ramaswamy regarding the phrase 'khalq-e-khuda'. I > will now try and respond with a degree of seriousness, in order to > respect the irritation that you express at the looseness with which > words and terms in urdu/persianate literature are often thrown around in > discussion. > > The phrase khalq-e-khuda has an interesting career. 'Khalq' is an arabic > term which denotes 'creation' (as Ramaswamy has pointed out), and is > distinguished from 'Amr' (direction) as being one of the two primary > functions of God - as 'Creator' and 'Director' of the universe. Iqbal > himself does this in his The Islamic characterization of Allah is gender > neutral. Contrary to what is commonly thought, 'Allah' in Islam is not a > 'father'. This is quite in opposition to the Christian concept of God, > where 'he' is quite strongly paternal. The Judaic 'YHWH' has a tendency > towards paternity (because of the scattered references to divine > 'paternity' in the Old Testament, but largely, for most variants of the > Jewish faith, the sex of god is immaterial. And to speak of him in > within an Islamic context in exculusively male terms is somewhat > inappropriate. This is underscored by the fact that the foremost of > divine attributes in Islam, mercy and compassion, expressed as 'rahman > ir rahim' comes from the Arabic root 'rhm' which stands for a complex of > meanings including womb, kinship, relationship etc. Clearly the > compassion and mercy of god is matricial. > > Similarly, the 'Ayat' or signs of God are expressed in a feminine sense, > and the 'Khalq' or creation are signs, aya of God's rahm. Humanity > springs from Allah's desire, and is a sign of Allah's love. That is why > the 'Khalq' can be seen as a part of a feminine complex of signification. > > In that sense, Khalq is what is 'made' or 'fashioned' by God. Hence, > humanity, people, are God's consummate creation, his Khalq. Hence the > phrase 'Khalq Allah' (God's creation - people) and Khalq-e-Khuda (same). > The phrases are often used to indicate the special relationship that > human beings have to god, whereby, even the simplest and poorest amongst > us, in Islamic thought, are special to God. It is a universalization > (and a universalizing, transcendental abrogation) of the older Judaic > principle of the 'chosen people'. In Islam, everyone is called, all are > chosen, but not all live up to the implications of the choice, or answer > the call. Thus, the phrase, 'Khalq-e-Khuda' is a conventionl marking of > the dignity of each human being, or human beings collectively, who, > regardless of station, are seen as standing in a special relationship to > God, requiring no mediation. In a way, it marks the very opposite of the > notion of 'purity' or claims to specialness, as marks of dignity. The > pure, imlplies the impure. The created however does not call into being > the image or the idea of the uncreated. In Islam, there is nothing > 'uncreated'. In other words, to be khalq, (arabic - > persian, creation, > one does not have to be khalis (arabic - clear as in clear water, > persian, pure). Createdness, mere being, and purity are two distinct > categories that do not require any relationship to one another. > > Islamic ideas of democracy/anarchy have always priviledged the fact that > the "Khalq Allah" are sovereign, because they bear the mark of divinely > ordained dignity. That is why Kingship (a marking of one human being as > superior to all others) has no scriptural sanction in Islam. > > However, it needs to be remembered that the phrase, 'Khayr-ul Khalq > Allah' (the greatest amongst Gods creations/people) is designated as a > singular way of identifying Mohammed as prophet. But he too represents > only the 'Insaan Kaamil', the man made perfect, and this too does not > mean that he is automatically raised above all humans. He too has to > listen to his companions, to his wives, indeed he is and can be > admonished by them when it becomes necessary. > > However, let us return to the word "Khalq" > > Khalq can be singular or plural. Man/Person or Persons/People. It is one > of the rare nominative cases in Arabic that does not change its ending > with a change from singular to plural. One infers its collective or > singulative status from the context. When someone says, 'Khayr-ul Khalq > Allah' it is clearly a reference to the singularity of the person of > Mohammed as Prophet. When one says 'Khalq Allah' or Khalq e Khuda' it > refers to an abstract collective entity - the people. > > In Arabic, the plural of some special nouns (regardless of whether the > noun is grammatically masculine or feminine in the singular) is treated > as feminine. Khalq (creation/created/people) is one such noun > > Now it is well known that Persian grammar (like Bengali) has no use for > gender. Hence the well known confusions about the sex of the saqi (cup > bearer), and aashiq (lover) in Urdu/Persian poetry. Hence also the > hilarious confusion about the transmutations in the meaning of the > phrase "Harjai" when it travels from Persian to Urdu/Hindustani/Punjabi. > > In Persian, Harjai (that which goes everywhere, is omnipresent) is a way > of speaking about God. In Hindustani/Urdu/Punjabi - the word 'Harjai' > because of the way in which the feminine ending 'i' is glossed together > with a form of the infinitive 'jaana' (to go), when read in tandem with > the qualifier 'Har' becomes - "she who goes everywhere/anywhere, with > everyone/anyone" in other words - an euphemism for a female prostitute. > In the slippage between languages, we can begin to see aspects of the > divine even in a whore. And I like that. It bestows dignity and respect > to sex work, and bespeaks a more civilized attitude to the person of the > prostitute. > > But let us return to comparative grammar. > Basically what we learn from this, and from other such examples is that > Urdu and Arabic both have gender, while Persian does not. And generally, > when Ideas travel from Arabic to Persian to Urdu we sometimes see the > intermediate suspension of gender in the Persian, and the emergence of > gender at either end. > > Thus the compound Arabo-Persian term 'Khalq e Khuda' (Khalq arabic, > Khuda, persian) reverts to a (feminine) gendered reading, hence 'Raj > Karegi (feminine verb ending) Khalq-e-Khuda' in Urdu, because Urdu i > this case simply conforms to the rule of the feminine ending of the > special plural noun 'Khalq' > > As far as I know Majma and Hujoom are not words in the same class as > Khalq, probably (and I am speculating here) because they do not have to > be read in terms of a theogony, which we cannot avoide doing when it > comes to 'Khalq' > > Be whatever it may, we can safely say that in an > Urdu-Persian-Arabic/slash islamicate context, when we invoke 'the > people' the default invocation has a feminine register. I think it makes > for an interesting way of challenging the patriarchal character of much > of Islamicate culture (especially when this is done from within). > > I hope this helps clarify a few issues. > > Finally, a few remarks about what you have called 'Jargon'. Personally, > I am a militant of the Plain English Movement, and when faced with the > choice of using a common as opposed to a technical vocabulary, I try and > use the former. However, there are occasions, like now, when the > necessity of the precise delineation of a concept, requires us to use > technical terms (with the proviso that we try and use them with clarity, > for the sake of meaning, and not for effect). > > To insist on speaking and writing with an effort at clarity is not the > same thing as writing in a way that is 'simple'. Sometimes 'clarity' > requires a great deal of complexity. I am not a votary either of > simplicity or of complexity in communication. It all depends on what we > are talking about, and why we are speaking to one another. > > This list is a clearing house of ideas. Of observations, opinions, > reflections and questions of all kind. As long as we abstain from > uncalled for personal attacks (of which we have seen a few) I do not see > why there should be one style (erudite or instinctive, learned or > irreverent) on the list, or even in the postings a single person makes. > So I would ask you what benefits we would receive if for instance, the > tone of the communication here suddenly acquired a relative flatness, > without precision or depth. I would be equally disappointed if, in the > name of depth and presicion, we were to give up on spontaneous and > instinctive writing, or humour and plain fun and games. I do not see why > one has to take place at the expense of the other. Do you see any > reasons why this should happen? > > And by the way, I do not quite see why writing while packing bags for > Istanbul is either an ornament or a disadvantage to the fact of an > attempt at communication. It is a fact. I do not have the privilege of > sedentariness, my work takes me places, and makes me lose sleep. If we > do not grudge anyone a situation of relative locational stability, then > I fail to see why mobility should be such an issue. > > Mystified, I remain > > yours, > > Shuddha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 17:55:17 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:25:17 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] ragpicking or recycling: from squattercity Message-ID: > From: Rob van Kranenburg > it falls to the city's ragpickers, one of India's poorest and most > marginalized groups, to provide this basic service for fellow citizens." New York-based writer Heather Rogers has an excellent project looking at garbage. It started life as a book, and then became a film. "Gone Tomorrow: The Hidden Life of Garbage" - Heather Rogers "It is not a shock that the United States is the number one producer of garbage on the planet; with just 5 percent of the global population we generate 30 percent of the world's trash. The average American throws away a staggering 4.5 pounds of rubbish daily -- that's 1,600 pounds each year, according to Rogers. And garbage is also a global problem; today the middle of the Pacific Ocean is six times more abundant with plastic waste than zooplankton." [Don Hazen in preface to interview] Interview With Heather Rogers http://www.alternet.org/story/27456/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 17:57:17 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 05:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Of ingrates and hypocrites In-Reply-To: <47e122a70709080514s41c37d13q317bcfebe4ae816c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <598645.89322.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder Before addressing this mail, I would like to share an observation. In your very next mail Inder, you opt, like some of the others, to talk to me (talk down at me) as part of a bunch. Inder, you are an artist(e) and would certainly be a zealous guardian of your own individuality of thought and expression. It intrigues me Inder that you would not treat me as an individual, just as you would want to be treated. In that observation is the answer to the private mail you have written me asking why I am ignoring some correspondents. Inder, my past is a living history of such dismissive, demeaning and bullying attitudes. You would be aware of the "Hayo Bhatta" (Oye you Kashmiri Pandit) attitude of actual words and tone. Much worse. Does it surprise you Inder that I will not respond? I will not cower but I will not dignify the bullies of this "intellectual community" by responding/reacting. This mail however Inder, you address me as an individual and I will respond to you Sir. I extended exactly the same courtesy to others up to the point they did too. 1. I have not seen the TOI image but I can easily visualise your reference. In an earlier note I stated my abhorrence for the "death penalty" for any reason whatsoever by anyone, but that is hardly pertinent to what you want to convey. Is that image a part of India? Yes it is. There are thousands and thousands of others that are equally and more degrading, dehumanising, exploitative, animalistic. The difference perhaps is that I see them as just a part of the Nation whereas you see them as the totality that define the Nation. Isn't that why you ask "...... is this the Nation which you are talking about"? Inder, I could take the line of "every country has such problems" or "what about that and that and that and that Nation, it is much worse". I will not do that. It isn't acceptable and no excuse or argument can justify it. The difference (perhaps) is in my being conscious of acknowledging such depravities and wanting to deliberate over and contribute towards making things better, whereas you want (or perhaps the artist in you wants) to retain only the horrific images in exclusion. 2. You want to escape Inder. You cannot. Wherever you go, it will be the Nation that will rule your life and through it's Laws determine your extent of movement, your mode of movement, where you can live, the kind of residence you can make, the quality of the air you breathe, the quality of the food you eat, quality of the medicines you get etc etc etc. Inder you might escape 'This Nation' but you can only escape to 'Another Nation'. That one too will have it's regulatory Laws and that one too will have it's problems. Show me the Utopia other than the one where the mind can travel. Inder, even the limits of your 'thinking' are regulated by the Laws of the Nation. Controls over subliminal messaging and drugging under legally enforced psychiatric interventions are just two examples. In fact Inder, apart from a handful of Nations, in most other places some of your own "Performance Art" will be totally unacceptable. Maybe not sent to the gallows, but you would certainly be rotting behind prison bars or sent for psychiatric treatment. Many countries automatically choose themselves as examples where some of your kind of "Performance Art" will bring you incarceration. At least on that score Inder be a wee bit thankful. 3. You have called my definition of the Nation State as provocative. Please tell me Inder what is "my" definition of the Nation State and where does the "provocation" lie in it. Please help by quoting from what I might have written. 4. You have also referred to me in ".... brimming with people like you". Do tell me Inder who are the "like me" people, how do you define them? Again I hope you will substantiate your recognition by quoting my words. 5. I quite liked Mohamad Junaid's mail that you refer to. A few minor disagreements and contentious points but I found it to be one of the better mails I have seen on SARAI. The import of the portion that you quoted from Junaid's mail failed to register with me (in the overall context of your mail). Perhaps you would like to explain. 6. Inder I have noted your evaluation that I am from ".... obsolete school of thought". 7. Talking of "lifted footage". You have unfortunately misrepresented me. You obviously remember incorrectly. I called it "found footage" just as it was called by those who had a conversation with "the" film-maker over Internet phone. It is a legitimate cinematic term, is it not? You must read that mail of mine again. There was no suggestion on my part that the usage of "found footage" was unacceptable in cinematic expression or that it brought down the quality of the product. I had referred to the serendipity of "found footage" for someone who claimed to have set out on a journey. Suspicious. "Provided in advance footage" for a pre-scripted "journey" is what I thought it was. If you have seen the film Inder, what is your opinion? Is there a pre-ponderance of "found footage" which provides the main narrative around which the film is woven? Or do you think the "found footage" was luckily "found" and used to reinforce the cinematic representation of the "journey"? Your other comments that took off from the term "lifted footage" used by you, were interesting. 9. All your criticisms about India are genuine. The "state of the Nation" tortures me as much as it tortures you. The difference again is in our attitudes. You want to escape the Nation, I want to rectify the Nation. Then there are some who want to destroy it or aid those who seek to destroy it. 10. Coming to Kashmir. I completely agree with your statement "The Nation State should understand its subjects, from all perspectives, and India has miserably failed in Kashmir.......Kashmir issue is/was about ethics". Inder, apart from the values (subjective perhaps) by which you and I might describes the "ethics", your and my disagreement might be (if there is one) over what the nature of that "failure" is and how it should have been attended to how it now needs to be addressed. If you are interested, we can carry forward the dialogue on that. I was hoping that Qalab Hussain (who you refer to) will respond in the same spirit as my response to him. Maybe he still will. 9. Your reference to "Anglo-American policies to contain third world countries...." is not something I totally disagree with. Your remark is strident. My canvas would be broader and I would use only one medium for my brush-strokes, that of "security" of my Nation. "Security" is not just physical security but encompasses every other aspect too such as Macro Economic, Micro Economic (especially to be protected in view of the dependencies of the poorest), Cultural, Sociological. Political etc etc Inder, for me it doesn't matter whether it is USA, UK, France, Germany, Bangladesh, Russia, Pakistan or China who might be threatening the Nation's "security". If any does, it has to be guarded against and countered. Worst of all is "the Enemy within". With regards and love Kshmendra Kaul inder salim wrote: On 9/6/07, inder salim wrote: > Dear Kshmendra > > I hope, u have seen the Image in 6/09 ToI today: Men hanging by the > noose in public domain. Dear Kshmendra ji, is this the Nation which > you are talking about? Whether this happens inside the prison or > outside, the meaning is the same: death to its subjects. The choice > to execute them so crudely suggests one thing that the Nation can > reveal its barbaric face at a very short notice. We have witnessed it > time and again, here as well. > > Because of your provocative definition on Nation Sate, I write, but > soon I might go some where, as usual, perhaps to escape, from the > idea of Nation itself, as it is brimming with people like you. You > certainly need not worry. But I hope that u feel that I am talking to > you, all the time. > > I quote from a latest response in the List by Mr. Mohd. Junaid " > The point is power. The kings, of whichever creed, have only > occasionally been driven by their faith. The most important thing for > them was to retain, boost and legitimize their power and authority…. > It is unfortunate that we have to defend kings and rulers here, and > not their subjects against them, but the nature of the discussion > forces us to do so". > > The problem with you Mr. Kshmendra is that you are from an obsolete > school of thought even about Nation State, let alone Contemporary Art. > Now for example, this: > > I remember, in one of your mails, you mentioned about the 'lifted > footage' in Sanjay Kak's film. The argument that it is someone else's > frame ( of mind ) was once thought to be of some importance, but now > it amounts to naiveté. I am not writing it only about you, but in > general. There are quite a number of people who think so, unwittingly > at times. The question is about appropriation of a concept or art > form, but when the issue is pain, nothing really matters, that is my > schooling. > > On seeing Abu Gharib Prison torture images, the noted writer Susan > Sontag declared " These photographs are us". Andhy Warhol used the > images 'found'. The all time great Marcel Duchamp gave it life and > name " ready-mades ". In essence, if I communicate, there is nothing > called ' original in art' these days. The reasons are many. Here, > I stress, the word ' communicate'. T.S.Eliot once suggested that a > Poem communicates itself first, and then it is understood. But we try > to understand first and then let a poem, a film, a painting, a > photograph, a documentary to communicate. Noted Urdu writer and > critic, Mr. Gopi Chand Narang suggested that there are thousands of > books on Iqbal and Islam, but in fact one or two books on his poetry. > You know, what I am talking about. > > There is an old Greek Quote, which says, that there is nothing new > under the sun. By that account, whatever we are writing, thinking or > even feeling is not ours, but inherited, so a direct loss of > existence. By how do we recover and restore our respective existential > beings within our specificities is the point that interests me. As I > suggested in my earlier post that I am interested in God of Small > Things, and not in the so called overwhelming Nation State Gods. Now > that is really a shift, from a King to a Subject. All you need to know > is that where your Camera is. If it is closer to the King then of > course the subject will look smaller in perspective, but if it is > shifted, then the King is inevitably pushed to the perspective, of > history. We need to re-read the history for this purpose. Literally, > that has happened in a country like Nepal, metaphorically it has > happened in other areas as well. All we need to do is to push the > camera to focus its subjects and not the Nation State. Now there are > tricky ways to focus the Camera, it can sabotage the cause, simply by > rendering the Subject to a Mask. That is what clever men in disguise > do. That is how politicians play with the camera, and know skills to > play this this theatre. But I am interested in the radical face of > theatre, of art, of poem, or a photograph and of documentary. > > If your idea of Nation state comes from 1947- India, then even it > can not afford to turn blind eye to the atrocities of Nation state to > its own subjects. Whether, it is Kashmir, North East, or any other > part of India, all we know is that the police and politicians are hand > in glove, and the Judiciary is lackadaisical, and the super Babus > simply know the art of ruling its subjects in the name of free India. > And even if you talk about heroes like Shaeed Bhagat Singh, still your > idea of Nation State is terribly handicapped against the ideal of > Nation State that sought to end the British Rule. > > To celebrate the Indian winning a cricket match against the British > is one thing, but to turn that celebration against the other who don't > want to celebrate, or even against those who prefer to celebrate the > British winning in India or wherever. Now how come, we impose our > choices on others. How do we know, who celebrates, what, when and > how? Now, if you are talking about Kashmir, now just tell me how can > you compel some one to dance without the inner will to move even. Any > cricket match between India and Pakistan was indeed a dividing line > between the two. That is that, but that does not define the Nation > state, particularly when it comes to history of Kashmir and its > politics. Then , you know now, why, in Kashmir after 1990, its > subjects like to see India-not-winning against any Cricketing Nation, > earlier it was Pakistan only. > > The Nation State should understand its subjects, from all > perspectives, and India has miserably failed in Kashmir. You will > agree, despite the fact that Kashmir is not clear about the mess it is > in, as you pointed to Mr. Qalab in yor response to his frank and forth > letter. Kashmir issue is/was about ethics and not about language, > region, mirpuris, pandits, dogras or ladhakhis etc.. something > terrible happened in 1947.... and it contiunes to happen. > Anglo-American policies to contain the third world countries is now > their art and craft....we unwittingly pick up the language, and > impose.... > > With regards and love > Inder salim > > > > > > On 9/6/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Qalab > > > > You have called me a brother. You are my brother too Sir. Kashmiri brother and not Muslim or Pandit or whatever. > > > > The "ingrates and hypocrites" comment had a context from earlier communications. It referred to "some" Indians and not specifically to any religion or region or ethnicity. > > > > If you want to be specific, then the generalisation "Muslims are anti-national and communal" is not my refrain. "Islam & Muslims" is as much a part of India as any other grouping. The "anti-national and communal" can be of any religion, region, ethnicity. > > > > You have picked on the word "Nation" and made your comments and statements. Please tell me, if you would like to, what is the "Kashmir Nation" you refer to. > > > > - is it of the people of Kashmir Valley alone? > > - is it of linguistically and ethnically Kashmiris alone? > > - is it those and in addition the Dogras, Ladakhis, Gojars, Baltis, Gilgitis, Muzaffarabadis & Mirpuris (both Saraiki and Punjabi speaking) etc? > > - how is the "Kashmir Nation" defined? > > - at what point of time from the past does it pick up the "Kashmir Nation" identity and why is that point chosen? > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > Rebellious Koshur wrote: > > Kshmendra Kaul, > > > > Blood, sweat and tears are used to make a Company also. India continues the legacy of East India Company. They too worked very hard those days to consolidate the British Indian Empire. In today's world all States are big companies and not Nations as such. > > > > India is a company which is retaining all what it has grabbed, purchased, occupied and secured through inheritance. I am talking about State of India and not the Nation. I hope you know the difference. > > > > Kashmir is nation and India is a state. My dear Kashmiri Pandit brothers you have deceived your own nation Kashmir time and again and yet you blame Muslims for being anti-national and communal. How pathetic Your communal leaning towards Indian state has made you blind and you have forgotten your ROOTS. > > > > For Resistance, > > > > Qalab Hussain > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: INTERESTING PARALLEL: > > > > It takes years to make a Nation. It takes the blood, sweat and tears of many to build it and try and keep it secure. > > > > Yet, you will find in the Nation some who feed off it but are intent on attacking it and supporting those who want to break-up the Nation. These are the enemy within. > > > > These self-centered and self-obsessed ingrates will pontificate over the need to protect the integrity of a Virtual Nation ("intellectual community") they might have help build, but they will not hesitate to undermine the Nation that allows the "reality" of their existence to be functional. > > > > Kshmendra Kaul. > > > > > > Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > > This is a list for discussion. Personal queries to individuals may be > > please not asked through the list. > > > > It takes years to build and make an intellectual community. It takes > > a few days to destroy it. > > > > Please treat the subscribers with some respect. > > > > warmly > > jeebesh > > > > On 04-Sep-07, at 11:48 AM, we wi wrote: > > > > > Hi Vedavati, > > > > > > You Did not answered my 2nd question on caste and > > > marriages in INDIA. Anyway may I know what your husband do? Can I > > > have his email address please? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Building a website is a piece of cake. > > > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. > > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > --------------------------------- > > Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now... > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. From justjunaid at rediffmail.com Tue Sep 11 18:06:12 2007 From: justjunaid at rediffmail.com (junaid) Date: 11 Sep 2007 12:36:12 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Reply to Dhatriji, his concerns etc. Message-ID: <20070911123612.15090.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> This post is only for Dhatriji. Others can just ignore it.   Dear Dhatri, I did not respond to you earlier for I suspected you were someone just playing this little game, you know, making fun of Hindu nationalism in India by writing like some typical RSS export-grade intellectual. It seems I was wrong. For if you were smart you would have realized your pun had run its honourable course. God, you really meant what you said! Although, I confess the joke is on me, but whatever it is a horrible story. You have got it totally wrong. The history, the society, philosophy, and the life in general. Even the cultural relativists would be shy to defend your warped ideas. I feel concerned, and, even against my instinct, a bit sympathetic. Let us take your post. The US democratic hopeful is living far from Pakistan. Pakistani nuclear weapons won’t reach him. In any case, Americans bomb China many times daily in bars and pubs. Till late in the night, past many bottles of whiskey and rum, US presidential hopefuls keep catching Osamas, Ahmedinejads, and Kim Jongs of this world, so many times. But yes Americans do give aid to Pakistani dictators. They can stop it. You have to realize India does not have any aid to give. Converse logic suggests India cannot stop aid to Pakistan. If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in the same month as India, so perhaps they might reply by dispatching some of them into India if India goes for hot chases, surgical strikes, masala dosas, bhel pooris etc. Your randomness threatens all accumulated wisdom, modern and postmodern. Your pained sigh that 'if Germany is united, and Korea is not, but might unite in future, as you feel, why should India not', is not actually a good logic. Some cocky chap might reason: Soviet Union disintegrated, and so did Yugoslavia. Why not India??? And Dhatri, my friend, this leaves you as vulnerable as someone standing in the middle of a chowk with his trousers' drawstrings snapped. On the "export of Buddhism", I have always wondered why India exported all of its Buddhism. It is such a good religion; should they not have kept some for themselves? You speak of how India offers Yoga to the world so they may "refrain from violent thoughts", which is again ironic, for you seem not to have tried it on yourself. A few lines ago you, along with some American bully, were talking of bombing Pakistan. And, hey, you were saying those bombing thoughts were nice. You so humiliate consistency! I must admit, I agree with you on one count, at least: That India's contribution to knowledge is zero. Although I am generally against patenting, claiming Intellectual Property Rights over 0 would be particularly shameful. Apart from practical difficulties such endeavour entails, like who takes the cash, imagine a situation where people across the world say they will use their own zeros, not the Indian one which is not even properly circular, what will you do? I hope you know every country has its own zero. I remember a joke of a professor who, sitting in a meeting, saw a young man, his hair slicked back, variously-sized rings on his fingers, and his jeans barely clinging to his hips, come up to him to say that he wanted to speak to him. Professor said: "But who are you?" "Your student." Embarrassedly, the professor interrupted: "Please hide this fact." The same way, Dhatri my friend, you should hide the fact that you want IPR over zero. It is good as a private sentiment, even in India's neoliberal age. Its public expression will only invite ridicule. You have managed to cull nine examples from your memory to suggest how India was robed, raped and run over by rulers of medieval India. Answers to these (in your own naïve/simple way) could be these: 1. Ghazni probably attacked Somnath because it contained a lot of gold (which ideally should have belonged to subjects of contemporary kings) which he needed to bolster his own rule in regions that more or less form the present-day Afghanistan. 2. Ghoris and Tughlaks ruled India because their armies were strong, and they managed to defeat local rulers. (Remember I am not saying if it is good or bad.) There was no democracy at that time, before or after they came to India. Conquest and invasion seem to have been the norms of the day. According to Ramachandra Guha, the long-awaited democracy finally came with Nehru. 3. Aurangzeb was, if you look at it, a nice bloke in what I know of him. He was not a lavish imperial spender. He caught brigands like Shivaji. He built the largest empire on what is now India. I have a serious aversion to rulers in general, but I think Aurangzeb was not any worse than Maharana Pratap or Prithvi Raj Chauhan. If you talk to your Sarsanghchalak he might tell you it is more hot air than fact. At the same time I agree Aurangzeb could have used witchcraft. I wonder when he was playing his witchcraft on Hindu women, where were the great Sadhu maharajas doing. 4. What is 'Partia'? 5. Kohinoor Diamond came from Golconda, passed through many rulers’ hands, Kakatyas, Tughlaks, Mughals etc, and is finally with British. Believe me it is not good for India, it brings bad luck. The Peacock Throne was made for Shah-e-Jahan, the Mughal Emperor. It was taken away by Nader Shah to Persia in 1739. The original Peacock Throne was destroyed, so can’t come back. In any case, why should it matter to you; it was made by Mughals who you think are not legitimate part of the Indian history. 6. Zinna, popularly called Jinnah, wanted a separate state for those Muslims who wanted to go to Pakistan. Did you, in an earlier mail, ask what the contribution of Pakistan was in the freedom struggle! Nothing, really. Because they were digging a canal in Rawalpindi at that time, and could not show up. But they have expressed sorry so many times for that. You should consider. Personally I am jealous of Jinnah; he got his Pakistan. 7. I totally agree Pakistan and China should vacate the peaks. They belong to Kashmir. India should also think about it. 8. Jihad Jihad Jihad Juhad Jihid Jahid Jidha Jadhi Jihdi Junaid A fact is always a fact. I didn't heard anything from junaid. I don't know how many of the sarai members are on their original names. While a day after the writing of this post, a democrat from U.S senate expressed his view stating that "If he would be the PRESIDENT OF USA, he would have stopped the aid to Pakistan and attacked the training camps at Pakistan ". If people of USA, and Americans thinking in such a nice way why not WE Indians? Germaine's are united and so as Korea's in future. Why not India??? Actually my writing was side tracked by the members of the SARAI. Its not like India-Centric or language as some of the member expressed. Akhand Bharat is used to speak Sanskrit as the medium of communication. Still many words are imported from Sanskrit and used in the national language(HINDI) and regional languages. Now a days English is the common medium of communication used in the world. INSTEAD OF ILLEGAL POSSESSION OF LAND(KASHMIR), both CHINA AND PAKISTAN and their supporters writing here SHOULD RETHINK about their thoughts and understanding towards their pseudo practices over religion. Since India is the exporter of BUDDHISM a transformation of Hinduism to Asia, We Indians are ready to offer afresh thought again in the form of YOGA and the importance of prayer to make countries and people feel better, confess themselves and refrain from violent thoughts. Even British handed over Hong Kong to Chaina after 99 year lease India did the same against Pakistan in the wars. If leases and defeats are generously managed Then whynot Pakistan and Chaina do the same in case of India? What the hell the world is doing at the suffering of our hearts and blood? This community include a variety of reporters,filmmakers,software engineers and intellectuals working at various capacities, I just ask you to think it and spread on the idea to claim the PATENTS AND IPR(INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS) over 0. The following are a few of the Barbarian attacks,losses and culture erosion 1) Ghajani on Somanath temple 2) Ghori rule 3) Tuglaq rule 4) Aurangzeb witched, weird conversion tactics on Hindu woman 5) Attacks from Partia 6) Kohinoor and several precious diamonds, peacock crown at world museum's 7) Zinna 2 nation theory and power joy at the cost of Indian patriot deaths 8) Illegal possession of land in Pakistan and China Hands (those are not empty peaks but the heart beat of Indians) 9) Jihadi attacks on India Isliye mein likha hoon ki hamko kuch bhi karne ka hak hai. Regards, Dhatri. From ysikand at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 18:44:07 2007 From: ysikand at gmail.com (Yogi Sikand) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:44:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iran: Beyond the Media Image Message-ID: <48097acc0709110614g121c1ab9o9b0a62835aa62106@mail.gmail.com> Iran: Beyond the Media Image Yoginder Sikand Flying over vast stretches of barren mountains and sandy wastelands for almost three hours, the plane began descending towards Tehran. I peered out of the window eagerly, hoping to catch a glimpse of Tehran's suburbs, but all I could see were large uncultivated mounds that rolled on without interruption far into the horizon. The Imam Khomeini International Airport looked desolate and abandoned from inside the aircraft when we landed. There was little apparent movement. Just two planes—both Iranian—were parked on the vast tarmac. I was disconcerted. Five minutes later, we were inside the terminal building. Contrary to what I had feared, it was, by Indian standards, swank and immaculate and bubbling with activity. I had expected to be greeted with swarms of somber-looking * burkha* clad women and grave-faced men sporting bushy beards—for that is what the media effectively reduces Iran to—but I was in for a pleasant shock. A friendly woman guard, neatly dressed in a blue coat and a matching hair covering, greeted me as I passed through Customs. 'Welcome to Iran', she said with a cheerful smile. Beyond the visitors' gate, I saw men, all dressed in Western attire, and women, only a few in all-enveloping black chadors but clearly outnumbered by those in Western-style knee-length coats, with colourful scarves tied loosely around their heads, excitedly waving at their friends and relatives whom they had come to receive. Huge billboards, decorated with neon lights, covered vast stretches of walls, imploring prospective customers to purchase the latest foreign gadgets. In just five minutes the image that I had built in my mind about Iran, based on what I had read in the newspapers and what television stations consistently spew out, was completely shattered. I was in Tehran at the invitation of a Shia religious organization to attend a conference on the notion of messianism in different religions. A cardinal tenet of the Shia form of Islam, to which the vast majority of Iranians adhere, is belief in a messiah, known as the Mahdi, who is said to have entered a cave while an infant many centuries ago and who is expected to reppear to herald the end of the world. I had heard of the conference through the Internet, and although I am no expert in messianism, I decided to apply for it, hardly expecting my application to be approved. But, to my surprise, it was, and the organizers had even been so gracious as to send me the tickets and to arrange for me to stay, along with the other participants, in a fancy hotel in Tehran's posh northern district. My hosts had sent a car to pick me up at the airport. Ali, a student at a Shia seminary, was at the exit to receive me. Like most other Iranians, Ali knew little English, but we managed a minimal conversation by using words common to both Farsi and Urdu. 'Maqam-e Imam', Ali announced to me as the car sped down the smooth six-lane road towards Tehran, located almost eighty kilometers away from the airport. 'Ayatollah Khomeini', he explained when I asked him what that meant. I still had no clue as to where we were heading. Twenty minutes later a massive building stretching almost a kilometer from one end to the other emerged into view. As we grew closer, I noticed its five massive gilded domes, several slender minarets, and literally hundreds of rooms that were built around its several vast courtyards. An exchange of a few Urdu-Farsi words with Ali thereupon informed me that we had arrived at the mausoleum of Ayatollah Khomeini. For many Iranians, this mausoleum, which, seventeen years after work on it began, has yet to be completed, is a major centre of pilgrimage. Families stretched on patches of grass under trees and in the vast square at the entrance of the shrine, sipping tea, counting beads, reading books or sleeping oblivious to the din around. Boys and girls played hide-and-seek, shrieking with delight. It was hardly the gloomy graveyard I thought it might be. Inside, soft woolen Persian carpets stretched from one end of a stadium-like building to the other. It was crowded with pilgrims, men and women, clutching the silver grills of the mausoleum and offering blessings on the soul of the departed Ayatollah. There were separate sections for men and women, but these were not hermetically sealed off, and both could see each other from either side of a low curtain. The Ayatollah's grave was simple and modest, reflecting his own austere lifestyle. Next to it was the equally modest grave of his son Mustafa. The graves were covered by a silver canopy on top and by green glass windows on all sides. Currency notes lay strewn in piles inside along the windows, the gift of pious pilgrims. Ali finished his prayers and then beckoned me back to the car. It took us barely half an hour to reach the hotel, located more than forty kilometers away. The broad road was as smooth as an airport tarmac, and the traffic impressively organized. The wastelands abruptly gave way to a forest of buildings as we passed through a toll-gate. This, explained Ali, was south Tehran, where most of the poor of this megapolis of more than 14 million people live. Yet, it struck me as remarkably middle-class by Indian standards, with no evident sign of desperate poverty. The buildings here were modest but neat, the roads wide, and the numerous gardens we passed by well manicured. People seemed well-dressed and well-fed, too. As we drove towards north Tehran, the buildings grew progressively taller, bigger and more 'modern'. Brightly-decorated shops and boutiques ran along streets lined with majestic Chinar trees. Residential areas appeared that hosted massive bungalows guarded by high walls. This could have been any European city. The plush five-star Estaghlal Hotel were we had been put up was an enormous structure, many floors high. Hung on the wall at the entrance to greet visitors was a framed poster that announced in clumsy English, 'Dear Guest, In order to observe the Iranian and Islamic values, it will be pleased to follow the Islamic *hijab* and moralities'. This slogan appeared below an image of a demure young woman with a black *hijab* or head scarf draped around her head but leaving her face showing, with a crimson setting sun in the background. Presumably, the poster addressed itself to women, who were expected to wear 'Islamic *hijab*', although Islam requires that men, too, be dressed modestly, which is what the Islamic concept of *hijab* is about. Accordingly, at the Hotel Estaghlal, as everywhere else in Iran, women were required to wear 'Islamic *hijab'*, but no such strictures seemed to apply to men, all of whom, with the exception of religious clerics and a few Kurds whom I saw in their traditional baggy trousers, wore Western dress. But even here, the women are free to interpret the stricture about 'Islamic dress' within broad limits. Women from the poorer classes or from more pious families are more likely to be dressed in the full *chador* than are other women. Of the former sort, only a few were visible at the Hotel Esteghlal. Most of the women guests and visitors in the hotel, obviously from rich families, had made their own innovations in the 'Islamic *hijab'* that the law requires, draping their heads loosely with colourful scarves and wearing fashionable pastel hued coats and stilettos. Some, obviously seeking to circumvent the law altogether, had streaked their hair golden and let it provocatively fall well below their scarves onto their faces. Others wore such tight fitting coats that they miserably (and probably deliberately) failed to perform their supposed function of concealing the outline of the body. Not a few sat at tables in the lobby heavily powdered and their eyebrows neatly plucked, puffing away at slender cigarettes along with their male companions. Sombre pictures of Ayatollahs Khomeini and Khameini and pious quotations from the Prophet Muhammad and Imam Ali slung on the walls of the opulently decorated lobby made for a surreal contrast. I headed for my well-appointed room. The mellifluous call to prayer floated up from a mosque below. I traced a line of men heading towards the mosque. But, even at prayer time, there were others who were loitering on the streets, speeding in their fancy cars or sipping tea at roadside cafés. Contrary to what I had imagined, there were no vigilantes rounding up people who failed to attend mosque services on time. In this, and in so many other respects, Iran was clearly not quite what the media had made me expect it to be. -- Sukhia Sab Sansar Khaye Aur Soye Dukhia Das Kabir Jagey Aur Roye The world is 'happy', eating and sleeping The forlorn Kabir Das is awake and weeping From kranenbu at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 11 19:22:17 2007 From: kranenbu at xs4all.nl (Rob van Kranenburg) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:52:17 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: ragpicking or recycling: from squattercity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7168DDFA-74AC-4276-98A0-ED766ADC114A@xs4all.nl> > I think there is no parallel for this, leaving our activists lost > and others too overwhemled to propose a way ahead. Hello Ravi, Very true. In this, we are all in the same boat. We - or I shall say I - have been quite depressed the past years in seeing the convergence of logistics and surveillance, convenience and biometrics in rfid and smart environments in not only the West but India, Russia, China where these high tech systems have no history and break down local and artisanal practices and ways of life and living where doing is a formative practice and things hold other meanings than waste only. But, if you'd see me now, you see a smiling man! In Bricolabs http://www.bricolabs.net/directions/paragraphs/ we are pulling together three strands: 1) the praxis of brazilian metareciclagem and gambiarra, making do 2) the attitude of developers such as jaromil, venzha, aymeric mansoux and alexei blinov and vladimir grafov, to name but a few and leave out lots of others 3 the ethnographic and organizational power of academics in LSE and INC and conceptual architects such as bronac ferran and matt ratto , also to name but a few together in a practice of aiming for ( doing, thinking, scheming) global generic infrastructures , fully open source parallell trajectories for all human activities and the key here is: parallell so we withdraw from any oppositional practice or doing as that feeds the loop of wild capitalism you have to give us some time to come forward with concrete projects, but they are coming up! greetings, Rob From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 19:32:12 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (Taraprakash) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:02:12 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Reply to Dhatriji, his concerns etc. References: <20070911123612.15090.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <01cd01c7f47c$5a8535b0$14fdbd48@Shabori> if this mail is for an individual, why the hell it has been sent to this list? Weren't online public chat rooms enough for India bashing and Pakistan bashing? ----- Original Message ----- From: "junaid" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 8:36 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Reply to Dhatriji, his concerns etc. > > This post is only for Dhatriji. Others can just ignore it. > > Dear Dhatri, > > I did not respond to you earlier for I suspected you were someone just > playing this little game, you know, making fun of Hindu nationalism in > India by writing like some typical RSS export-grade intellectual. It seems > I was wrong. For if you were smart you would have realized your pun had > run its honourable course. God, you really meant what you said! Although, > I confess the joke is on me, but whatever it is a horrible story. You have > got it totally wrong. The history, the society, philosophy, and the life > in general. Even the cultural relativists would be shy to defend your > warped ideas. I feel concerned, and, even against my instinct, a bit > sympathetic. > > Let us take your post. The US democratic hopeful is living far from > Pakistan. Pakistani nuclear weapons won’t reach him. In any case, > Americans bomb China many times daily in bars and pubs. Till late in the > night, past many bottles of whiskey and rum, US presidential hopefuls keep > catching Osamas, Ahmedinejads, and Kim Jongs of this world, so many times. > But yes Americans do give aid to Pakistani dictators. They can stop it. > You have to realize India does not have any aid to give. Converse logic > suggests India cannot stop aid to Pakistan. If you remember Pakistan also > detonated its nuclear weapons in the same month as India, so perhaps they > might reply by dispatching some of them into India if India goes for hot > chases, surgical strikes, masala dosas, bhel pooris etc. > > Your randomness threatens all accumulated wisdom, modern and postmodern. > Your pained sigh that 'if Germany is united, and Korea is not, but might > unite in future, as you feel, why should India not', is not actually a > good logic. Some cocky chap might reason: Soviet Union disintegrated, and > so did Yugoslavia. Why not India??? And Dhatri, my friend, this leaves > you as vulnerable as someone standing in the middle of a chowk with his > trousers' drawstrings snapped. > > On the "export of Buddhism", I have always wondered why India exported all > of its Buddhism. It is such a good religion; should they not have kept > some for themselves? You speak of how India offers Yoga to the world so > they may "refrain from violent thoughts", which is again ironic, for you > seem not to have tried it on yourself. A few lines ago you, along with > some American bully, were talking of bombing Pakistan. And, hey, you were > saying those bombing thoughts were nice. You so humiliate consistency! > > I must admit, I agree with you on one count, at least: That India's > contribution to knowledge is zero. Although I am generally against > patenting, claiming Intellectual Property Rights over 0 would be > particularly shameful. Apart from practical difficulties such endeavour > entails, like who takes the cash, imagine a situation where people across > the world say they will use their own zeros, not the Indian one which is > not even properly circular, what will you do? I hope you know every > country has its own zero. > I remember a joke of a professor who, sitting in a meeting, saw a young > man, his hair slicked back, variously-sized rings on his fingers, and his > jeans barely clinging to his hips, come up to him to say that he wanted to > speak to him. > Professor said: "But who are you?" > "Your student." > Embarrassedly, the professor interrupted: "Please hide this fact." The > same way, Dhatri my friend, you should hide the fact that you want IPR > over zero. It is good as a private sentiment, even in India's neoliberal > age. Its public expression will only invite ridicule. > > You have managed to cull nine examples from your memory to suggest how > India was robed, raped and run over by rulers of medieval India. Answers > to these (in your own naïve/simple way) could be these: > > 1. Ghazni probably attacked Somnath because it contained a lot of gold > (which ideally should have belonged to subjects of contemporary kings) > which he needed to bolster his own rule in regions that more or less form > the present-day Afghanistan. > > 2. Ghoris and Tughlaks ruled India because their armies were strong, and > they managed to defeat local rulers. (Remember I am not saying if it is > good or bad.) There was no democracy at that time, before or after they > came to India. Conquest and invasion seem to have been the norms of the > day. According to Ramachandra Guha, the long-awaited democracy finally > came with Nehru. > > 3. Aurangzeb was, if you look at it, a nice bloke in what I know of him. > He was not a lavish imperial spender. He caught brigands like Shivaji. He > built the largest empire on what is now India. I have a serious aversion > to rulers in general, but I think Aurangzeb was not any worse than > Maharana Pratap or Prithvi Raj Chauhan. If you talk to your Sarsanghchalak > he might tell you it is more hot air than fact. At the same time I agree > Aurangzeb could have used witchcraft. I wonder when he was playing his > witchcraft on Hindu women, where were the great Sadhu maharajas doing. > > 4. What is 'Partia'? > > 5. Kohinoor Diamond came from Golconda, passed through many rulers’ hands, > Kakatyas, Tughlaks, Mughals etc, and is finally with British. Believe me > it is not good for India, it brings bad luck. The Peacock Throne was made > for Shah-e-Jahan, the Mughal Emperor. It was taken away by Nader Shah to > Persia in 1739. The original Peacock Throne was destroyed, so can’t come > back. In any case, why should it matter to you; it was made by Mughals who > you think are not legitimate part of the Indian history. > > 6. Zinna, popularly called Jinnah, wanted a separate state for those > Muslims who wanted to go to Pakistan. Did you, in an earlier mail, ask > what the contribution of Pakistan was in the freedom struggle! Nothing, > really. Because they were digging a canal in Rawalpindi at that time, and > could not show up. But they have expressed sorry so many times for that. > You should consider. Personally I am jealous of Jinnah; he got his > Pakistan. > > 7. I totally agree Pakistan and China should vacate the peaks. They belong > to Kashmir. India should also think about it. > > 8. Jihad Jihad Jihad Juhad Jihid Jahid Jidha Jadhi Jihdi > > Junaid > > > A fact is always a fact. I didn't heard anything from junaid. I > don't know how many of the sarai members are on their original names. > While a day after the writing of this post, a democrat from U.S senate > expressed his view stating that > > "If he would be the PRESIDENT OF USA, he would have stopped the aid to > Pakistan and attacked the training camps at Pakistan ". If people of > USA, and Americans thinking in such a nice way why not WE Indians? > > Germaine's are united and so as Korea's in future. Why not India??? > Actually my writing was side tracked by the members of the SARAI. Its not > like India-Centric or language as some of the member expressed. Akhand > Bharat is used to speak Sanskrit as the medium of communication. Still > many words are imported from Sanskrit and used in the national > language(HINDI) and regional languages. Now a days English is the common > medium of communication used in the world. > > INSTEAD OF ILLEGAL POSSESSION OF LAND(KASHMIR), both CHINA AND PAKISTAN > and their supporters writing here SHOULD RETHINK about their thoughts and > understanding towards their pseudo practices over religion. Since India > is the exporter of BUDDHISM a transformation of Hinduism to Asia, We > Indians are ready to offer afresh thought again in the form of YOGA and > the importance of prayer to make countries and people feel better, confess > themselves and refrain from violent thoughts. > > Even British handed over Hong Kong to Chaina after 99 year lease > India did the same against Pakistan in the wars. > If leases and defeats are generously managed > Then whynot Pakistan and Chaina do the same in case of India? > What the hell the world is doing at the suffering of our hearts and blood? > > > > This community include a variety of reporters,filmmakers,software > engineers and intellectuals working at various capacities, I just ask you > to think it and spread on the idea to claim the PATENTS AND > IPR(INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS) over 0. > > > The following are a few of the Barbarian attacks,losses and culture > erosion > > 1) Ghajani on Somanath temple > 2) Ghori rule > 3) Tuglaq rule > 4) Aurangzeb witched, weird conversion tactics on Hindu woman > 5) Attacks from Partia > 6) Kohinoor and several precious diamonds, peacock crown at world museum's > 7) Zinna 2 nation theory and power joy at the cost of Indian patriot > deaths > 8) Illegal possession of land in Pakistan and China Hands > (those are not empty peaks but the heart beat of Indians) > 9) Jihadi attacks on India > > Isliye mein likha hoon ki hamko kuch bhi karne ka hak hai. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Sep 11 22:49:29 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:49:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Namdeo Dhasal needs your help Message-ID: <9c06aab30709111019m5268b15ey5f2d4a9ee3aaee49@mail.gmail.com> The parrot of existence perennially pecks at the permanent pain of death. Namdeo Dhasal, founder of the Dalit Panther, author of the literary classic Golpitha, bestowed with the Lifetime Achievement Award in 2004 by the Sahitya Akademi, has suffered from myaesthenia gravis – a rare and irreversible neuromuscular disease – since the 1980s. He is undergoing treatment at the Bombay Hospital and Medical Research Centre. The treatment is exorbitant, recurring and indefinite. Amitabh Bachchan, who suffers from the same ailment, has donated Rs 5 lakh towards Dhasal's treatment. Salman Khan has given Rs 1 lakh. The Maharashtra government has decided to give Rs 5 lakh to Dhasal. If you wish to contribute towards the treatment and hospitalization of Dhasal, and the recurring costs incurred by his family: 1. Write a cheque in favour of the 'Bombay Hospital Trust and Medical Research Centre' with a covering note mentioning that the amount sent by you is specifically meant for the hospitalization and treatment of their patient Namdeo Dhasal, or 2. Send a cheque drawn in favour of Namdeo's wife Malika Amar Shaikh. You may send your contributions to: Malika Amar Shaikh c/o Namdeo Dhasal 404/B, Florida, 4th Floor Shastrinagar Andheri (West) Mumbai 400 053 For news on Namdeo Dhasal's condition, see: http://www.mumbaimirror.com/net/mmpaper.aspx?page=article§id=15&contentid=2007090520070905025022156186907d2 http://www.ndtvmusic.com/story.asp?id=ENTEN20070025099 http://www.indianexpress.com/story/215603.html Appeal issues by S. Anand, Navayana Publishers - www.navayana.org / anand.navayana @ gmail.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 23:27:17 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 23:27:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Best Actors In Negative Role Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709111057i211d4018sc2b7eda61b51282d@mail.gmail.com> http://prem-sahajwala.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/08/communists-the-best-actors-in-negative-role.htm From sen.gargi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 02:39:14 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 02:39:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Indocentrism & Taslima Nasreen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Naeem, Fascinating read. But tell me, what does this narration have to do with the points I raised? The fundamental one being Art, and artists, are often attacked if they step into terrains contested by political regimes, ideology or organised religion. You picked one sentence from my rather long post, the crux of a long paragraph, which is, I quote ³The debate to my mind is fundamentally about Art entering contested terrains. It's primarily about art and artistic freedom in areas of conflict. So it is incidentally about Jashn-e-azadi and Sanjay Kak but more about freedom or how we are allowed to engage with it. Nevertheless, it is also about the two as they - the film and the artist - are being evoked over and over. Replace these two names with Taslima Nasreen and 'Lajja' (Shame) or any other two from growing history of art and artists in exile/ silenced/ under threat/ forced to migrate/ killed and tell me has the contour of the debate sifted in any significant manner?² Do me a favour, re-read the paragraph/ post but replace Taslima Nasreen and Lajja with Pablo Neruda and Giberto Gil. Both artists, both exiled for their political positions articulated through art, both ministers of cultures in their respective nations subsequently, separated though by time, one dead and one still singing. ANd please tell me what is your point. I simply don¹t understand. I too will think more and write further. I have just returned home after being on the road for a few days and the last leg of the journey that involved endless waiting in a crowded airport and stretched travelling time to three times the original, has exhausted me. So I will write when refreshed and energised. Nevertheless, I enjoyed reading the interesting account. Gargi On 9/11/07 10:57 AM, "Naeem Mohaiemen" wrote: >> >Gargi Sen wrote: >Dear friends who fear and abhor Indo centrism, ... >the >> Indo Centrism that you, Naem and some others talk about ... >I refuse to >> paint the recent debate as Indo centric ... >I refuse to buy the Indo Centric >> bullshit. Gargi, The CONTENT of the debate over the film or free speech or >> Kashmir was NOT what I identified as Indo-centric. Rather it was the manner >> in which the volume of that debate was squashing available space for of all >> other conversations inside Sarai. It seemed that suddenly the Sarai list was >> bcoming inhabited, occupied, and dominated by a (un)conscious Indian hegemony >> -- leaving no space for other debates and discussions within South Asia. >> Particularly, the manner in which the language of Sarai list recently slipped >> between English and Hindi/Urdu/Hindusthani without pausing for a second as to >> whether that alienates and pushes out a portion of the Sarai readership was >> part of what I was referring to. Actually the real issue is that the authors >> never even paused for a second as to whether the language was an issue at >> all... >Replace these two names with Taslima Nasreen and 'Lajja' (Shame) It's >> interesting that you have invoked Taslima, she is now, and has been for a >> while, a totem of Indian progressives. And she is also invoked to say "look >> we don't just talk about Indians!" The interesting thing about Taslima is the >> disproportionate amount of attention she always gets in India relative to >> others who have taken equally brave stances and remained invisible in the >> Indian context. Ahmod Sharif who declared as early as the 1970s that he was >> an atheist. Or Ahmod Sofa, who was both atheist and possibly gay (we have >> always surmised from reading the subtext of his text). Or Humayun Azad, who >> was anti-religious (Amar Obishyash) to the point that he was attacked by >> machette-wielding "Islamists" (and eventually died in Germany). Or Rahnuma >> Ahmed (Islami Chintar Punorpothon) who has been debating Islam & the >> patriarchy for last 10 years. Or Farida Akhter (Ubinig), who has been a >> figure in globalization/feminist battles. Or Salimullah Khan. Or Faruk >> Wasif. The list is actually endless-- Swadhin or Manosh can jump in with >> other names. But the reason Taslima is often the ONLY example invoked in an >> Indian context is because her story is so intricately linked with Indian >> patronage-- with the Indian progressives' idea of who they themselves are as >> a beacon to South Asia (a rescuing force that will save all South Asia from >> itself). Especially within the Taslima story is the idea of Indian >> Progressives (and not so progressive, more on that in a few lines) rescuing >> and sheltering her from the savages next door. Very early on, Taslima, >> alienated and broke ranks with the Bangladeshi feminist community. A key >> moment was in an interview where she said "I am the first proper feminist in >> Bangladesh." When a startled interviewer asked her what she then thought of >> Begum Rokeya (who had written "Sultana's Dream" almost a century ago), >> Taslima replied "Begum Rokeya, she was all right, but she had many >> limitations..." (note: not exact, from memory) A similar sentiment imbued >> her approach to the entire feminist infrastructure in Bangladesh, always >> positioning herself as "above" all this. [I write this as someone who found >> her "Nirbachitho Column" collection like an incredibly valuable interjection >> into the Bangla patriarchy and appreciated much of her work, including >> "Lajja".] Around the time of "Lajja", Taslima's trajectory changed. She had >> already received the Kolkatha "Ananda" award, something that heightened her >> sense of distance with the local community of writers, and kinship instead >> with the Kolkata bhodrolok chokro. From here on Taslima's story is often a >> story vis-a-vis India. It was first and foremost the BJP that pounced on >> "Lajja" and started making thousands of photocopies and spreading them >> throughout the country. It was the BJP that started funding translations >> into Hindi/Urdu. From here on, Taslima became something championed by India, >> which increased the antagonism towards her in Bangladesh. Allies of Taslima >> repeatedly asked her to at the least distance herself from the BJP >> translations, but she refused to do so. It was on Indian TV that Taslima >> gave her famous interview-- designed for maximum shock, holding the Quran in >> one hand, cigarette in other, and saying [to an Indian microphone, all this >> matters] "the Quran needs to be revised." The furore that followed: death >> threats, fatwas, nonsensical spouting by the mullahs, obscures the fact that >> India-Bangladesh tensions were as much part of this story as was Islam (and >> of course, conflated). Meanwhile our progressive mahals were aghast that >> years of careful work had been derailed by Taslima's "stuntbaji" on Indian >> TV-- they now watched as the maulvis they had spent years coralling into the >> mosques were now on the offensive, taking over the entire city with strikes. >> Taslima of course famously went into exile in Europe, but soon found those to >> be unwelcoming homes (there was a particular shrill repetitiveness, and lack >> of tailoring-to-audience, that made her un-useful once she was no longer >> "under attack by fundamentalists"). Eventually she moved to India. >> Eventually Hyderabad happened, and eventually the Sarai debate around here. >> Taslima is the example that is always debated in these forums, because >> similar to the western relationship with Iranian reformers, there may be an >> Indian role in resolving, concluding, rescuing her narrative. But stories >> that happen inside our borders, where there is no Indian >> oversight/rescue/recognition role, those seem to always be under the radar. >> (to be continued, I hope....) _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & >> Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shohini at vsnl.com Wed Sep 12 09:01:46 2007 From: shohini at vsnl.com (Shohini Ghosh) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:01:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima Nasreen References: Message-ID: <000401c7f4ed$91a69b30$4fea41db@admin> Dear Naeem and everyone else: You wrote: "But the reason Taslima is often the ONLY example invoked in an Indian context is because her story is so intricately linked with Indian patronage-- with the Indian progressives' idea of who they themselves are as a beacon to South Asia (a rescuing force that will save all South Asia from itself)." That's a reductive and sweeping generalization. Many of us have been avid readers of Taslima much before she became the subject of Indian "patronage". She became known all over India after The Statesman Controversy but many of us have admired her column writings much before that. Needless, to say this was restricted to only a Bengali reading crowd. To mistake West Bengal's interest in Taslima as "Indian" interest is a mistake. I went to Bangladesh for a SAARC meeting the same year that Taslima had to leave Bangladesh. The last day's session was very tense with lawyer Sara Hossain making an intrepid presentation on Taslima and about the threat to Freedom of Speech and Expression. She asked why Feminists in Bangladesh were not supporting Taslima. The Feminists around the table - and there were many - chose to remain silent. In absolute exasperation Sara wanted to know whether I had anything to say. Knowing how predictably my defense of Taslima would be taken, I started by talking about the threats posed to speech and expression by the Hindu Right in India and what the implications of that could be. And therefore, why it was important to support Taslima. To which I was told exactly what Naeem has written! Of course, it was said by someone who is now a close friend. Later when I engaged people in conversation about the issue, I was given a a host of different reasons, none of which were very persuasive. "She's a sensationalist", "She's a bad writer", "She writes only about sex", "She asked for it.", "She enjoys patronage from writers in Calcutta" , "She's not the only one" and so on. This of course is not new. Similar arguments are mobilized around the Hussain allowing certain "liberals" to sit on the fence.. The decision,at the time, of a large number of Feminists in Bangladesh not to support Taslima for these assortment of reasons was nothing admirable. In fact, they spread much confusion among Feminists in India, a majority of whom refused to support Taslima in a gesture of solidarity with their Bangladeshi counterparts. This coalition of the "unwilling" is not a chapter in feminist history to be proud of. Freedom of Speech and Expression is not contingent upon the content and worth of what is spoken but about that very act of speaking. Whether or not we agree with Taslima, or anyone else, is entirely irrelevant to the debate. Besides, there is no great virtue in fighting to protect speech that we agree with. The true test of our commitment to the principle of free expression happens when we are confronted with the hard choice of protecting speech that we do not agree with. Feminism is complicated business today. I call myself a Feminist but there are positions taken by many Feminist on many issues that I have strong disagreements with. We are as fractured as any other 'ism". I am also familiar with many of the people you have mentioned whose speech has irked the right wing and who have been made the target of different kinds of attacks. Then there are thers like, Shameem Akhtar for example, who wrote about issues and ideas equally transgressive but was not made the target of attacks. So what makes the Taslima issue different - or is it no different? Why do certain people become hyper-visible targets at certain even though they may not be the only one articulating radical thoughts? That's something worth pondering about. Thanks, Shohini From sen.gargi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 09:41:46 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:41:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: Dear All, I am shifting the threads of conversation into another that began with the post below, a conversation I was very interested and want to participate in but couldn¹t being engaged elsewhere. I am going to write at length sometime but right now, re-reading Naeem¹s post of last evening, I am delighted to see another picture: Naeem¹s anxiety about Indo-centric nature of recent debate and Kirdar¹s annoyance with Shuddha¹s thoughts, job and position, and how these two ­ anxiety and annoyance merely - also relate to Rana¹s reflective thread on reader-list as a site and practice of debate. Lest it is misunderstood, I am in no way implying that Naeem¹s anxiety is not genuine. I agree with him in most scores, especially when he evokes one my favourite inspirations, Rokeya Begum. My simple point though is that does such a list ­ or engagement in a space of this nature - allow us to talk without anxieties and the boundaries of us-and-them that that anxiety normally draws? As far as Shuddha the toilet clear - tome reader is concerned, I am not here to defend either his thoughts or searches - I am normally delighted with the complex and intricate pictures he draws whether I agree with them or not ­ but I can¹t but wonder in a virtual space of thoughts how does it matter which physical space he is writing from, whether it is Istanbul or Punjabi Bagh or even when he is cheerfully whistling while cleaning latrines. Both these, the anxieties and annoyance, gave me some insight into the inner depths of the reflective thread that Rana began. But more on that later when I can pull myself away from the duel-of-wit with he ARKP+VD lot and my other endless but real responsibilities. I can¹t resist signing off with copy-pasting the monotonous mantra of global capital: have a good day (even while you are being utterly and completely screwed, emotionally, politically, spiritually and monetarily in your daily life.) So, dear all: have a good day. Gargi On 9/8/07 5:00 PM, "Rana Dasgupta" wrote: > It's been an interesting few weeks on this list. Some might say "We've never > had it so good" - since there have been far more posts, with far more > responses, than usual. Others might feel that this has been the Reader-list's > lowest ever point - its usual solemn tone and good opinions giving way to a > running sit-com of ad feminam assaults. Given the seriousness of some of the > issues at stake, and the enormous gulfs of understanding between some of the > contributors, I have to say I've admired the restraint of many of the writers > on the list. People have held themselves back from expressing outright > disgust, or from violent attacks. It seems that there's a sense that one can't > say just anything. Or if one did, it would erode the fabric of the list. > People have to balance their own irritation or repugnance with a desire to > uphold the hospitality and vitality of the list. I think this says something > very positive about the culture of a list. > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list > on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email > to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 10:29:21 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:29:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Denmark & India Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709112159o1392eff6hfb8ccc87ee1c0853@mail.gmail.com> http://www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_060207.htm From shohini at vsnl.com Wed Sep 12 10:43:46 2007 From: shohini at vsnl.com (Shohini Ghosh) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:43:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima Nasreen Message-ID: <000301c7f4fb$e5c30380$60e941db@admin> Dear Naeem and everyone else: You wrote: "But the reason Taslima is often the ONLY example invoked in an Indian context is because her story is so intricately linked with Indian patronage-- with the Indian progressives' idea of who they themselves are as a beacon to South Asia (a rescuing force that will save all South Asia from itself)." That's a reductive and sweeping generalization. Many of us have been avid readers of Taslima much before she became the subject of Indian "patronage".She became known all over India after The Statesman Controversy but many of us have admired her column writings much before that. Needless, to say this was restricted to only a Bengali reading crowd. To mistake West Bengal's interest in Taslima as "Indian" interest is a mistake. I went to Bangladesh for a SAARC meeting the same year that Taslima had to leave Bangladesh. The last day's session was very tense with lawyer Sara Hossain making an intrepid presentation on Taslima and about the threat to Freedom of Speech and Expression. She asked why Feminists in Bangladesh were not supporting Taslima. The Feminists around the table - and there were many - chose to remain silent. In absolute exasperation Sara wanted to know whether I had anything to say. Knowing how predictably my defense of Taslima would be taken, I started by talking about the threats posed to speech and expression by the Hindu Right in India and what the implications of that could be. And therefore, why it was important to support Taslima. To which I was told exactly what Naeem has written! Of course, it was said by someone who is now a close friend. Later, when I engaged people in conversation about the issue, I was given a host of different reasons, none of which were very persuasive. "She's a sensationalist", "She's a bad writer", "She writes only about sex", "She asked for it.", "She enjoys patronage from writers in Calcutta" , "She's not the only one" and so on. This of course is not new. Similar arguments are mobilized around the Hussain controversy, for instance, allowing certain "liberals" to sit on the fence. The decision, at the time, of a large number of Feminists in Bangladesh not to support Taslima for these assortment of reasons was nothing admirable. In fact, they spread much confusion among Feminists in India, a majority of whom refused to support Taslima in a gesture of solidarity with their Bangladeshi counterparts. This coalition of the "unwilling" is not a chapter in feminist history to be proud of. Freedom of Speech and Expression is not contingent upon the content and worth of what is spoken but about that very act of speaking. Whether or not we agree with Taslima, or anyone else, is entirely irrelevant to the debate.Besides, there is no great virtue in fighting to protect speech that we agree with. The true test of our commitment to the principle of free expression happens when we are confronted with the hard choice of protecting speech that we do not agree with. Feminism is complicated business today. I call myself a Feminist but there are positions taken by many Feminist on many issues that I have strong disagreements with. We are as fractured as any other 'ism". I am also familiar with many of the people you have mentioned whose speech has irked the right wing and who have been made the target of different kinds of attacks. Then there are others like, Shameem Akhtar for example, who wrote about issues and ideas equally transgressive but was not made the target of attacks. So what makes the Taslima issue different - or is it no different? Why do certain people become hyper-visible targets at certain times even though they may not be the only one articulating radical thoughts? That's something worth pondering about. Thanks, Shohini From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Sep 12 12:49:31 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:49:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On 'Khalq-e-Khuda' In-Reply-To: <73eb60090709110341v752154f9w69757a6764f196ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E5B9F8.3060708@sarai.net> <73eb60090709110341v752154f9w69757a6764f196ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E79303.3050809@sarai.net> Dear Kirdar, Many thanks for your post. You are right, there are independent and autonomous usages of the word 'Khalq', especially as 'the people' that exist in Arabic, Persian and Urdu. So, for instance the Peoples Democratic Party of Afghanistan (the Communist Part of Afghanistan) had two factions - Parcham (Banner/Flag) and Khalq (The People). Such that it was possible to refer to PDPA(Parcham) and PDPA(Khalq), just as we say CPI, CPI(M) and CPI(M-L). However, the fact remains that the word 'Khalq' as signifying 'people/human beings' in any language is in a sense derivative from its specific meaning and etymological origin in Arabic as 'the creation of god' - because - human beings are the zenith, as far as 'the creation of God' is considered in Islamic thinking. And 'Khalq' is one of the two forms of creation in Arabic. I will elaborate on this a little later. Having said that, I find it actually interesting that the word 'Khalq' has moved from the sacred to the profane/mundane register - as you correctly point out. It points to an inventive de-sacralization of the term, especially by later writers. Such that even an avowedly atheist poet like Faiz would use 'Khalq'or 'Khalq e Khuda' without a thought. Or that a Communist Party faction in Afghanistan would use the word to identify itself (again without any problems or crises of identity). This shows that words change meaning and register with time. It is a natural process that happens in all languages. And it is quite refreshing to free words and terms from the meaning with which they have been originally endowed, and bestow new significances to them. That is probably one of the basic tasks of literary creativity. And I am all for profane, even radically de-sacralized readings of all terms that may have originally had a more rigorously 'theological' gloss. So, sometimes, in colloquial Hindustani, I have heard of a 'bribe' being referred to as 'Prasad'(a blasphemous usage no doubt, given 'prasad's' original meaning of being that which is left behind by the Gods for us to consume after they have been sated). But I quite like this (profane) usage, especially because I know that it somehow subverts the gravitas of the ritual usage. I suspect that later Urdu/Arabic/Persian poets and readers feel a similar delight in de-sacralizing words like 'Khalq. Poets like Faiz do it on occasion, Ghalib does it often (he toys quite often with the blasphemous), even sometimes like Noon Meem Rashid, is particularly fond of 'de-sacralizing' the corpus of otherwise 'sacred words and concepts'. In fact, in Arabic, there is a whole corpus or genre, known as 'mujun' (from which we get 'mauj') writing, which delights in the radical profanation (often with sexual connotations) of sacred terms. Interestingly, you find instances of 'mujun' tucked away in the interstices of very high minded philosophical and theological treatises (for the entertainment of the exhausted alim, or religious scholar). This just goes to show the immense distance that Islamicate cultures have travelled (unfortunately in the direction of constricted speech, in present times) Be that as it may, when it comes to a detailed lexical analysis of a word, and thinking about why it is to be read in a singular or plural sense, or why it naturally moves to the feminine gender when found in gramatically gendered languages, then we have to try and do the lexical detective work of trying to find its original sense, in its original language. And I was merely trying to see why the term 'Khalq-e-Khuda' was glossed in the feminine case, as opposed, as you correctly point out , other words like 'Majma' or 'Hujoom' (which also denote 'gatherings' or collectivities) and which, unlike 'Khalq' tend towards the default masculine case in grammatically gendered languages. I have no doubts about the fact that the original sense of the Arabic triple consonant cluster - 'khe-lam-qaf' (which gives us 'Khalq' and from which stem an entire family of words like 'Ikhlaq', 'Makhlooq', 'Khalqat' all of which have different shades of contextual meaning- including 'ethics' for Ikhlaqiyat (the question of ethics is after all related to the predicament of being human, and the situation of being endowed with 'free will' which is a special marker of the zenith of God's creation - the 'Khalq', or human beings). Quranic Arabic has two terms for creation - one being 'Ibda' (creation ex nihilo - creation from nothing, the original creation of the universe) and the other being 'Khalq' (creation from something, from an already created substance - which is the case with animate life). Which is why the term used for all living beings in their general collective sense is 'Khalqat'. Can I give you references ? - Unfortunately right now I am typing this off the top of my head, sitting in a 'nowhere' between places. So I do not have them at hand. But any standard Arabic lexicon or grammar will give you a sense of the special nominative cases and the exceptional nouns that default into the feminine reading when they are expressed in the collective sense (as for instance 'Khalq' does). For detailed 'theological' understandings of the word 'Khalq' a good place to start (and something that is accessible in India) is the work of Shah Wali Ullah (most of which is available in Urdu, being translated from the original Arabic and Persian). As for the phrase 'Khalq Allah' that is easy, consult any list of attributes/names of the prophet Muhammad (called 'Asma-un-Nabi'), and you will come across the word 'Khayr-al-Khalq-Allah' (the greatest of God's creations), you even find 'Sa'ad-ul-Khalq' (the joy of creation) and so forth. I suspect that if you google the phrase Khalq Allah, you will come across a large number of sites that contain the 'asma un nabi' list. More specifically, as far as my memory goes, (I could be wrong in terms of detail here, as it has been a while since I looked this sort of thing up) there is a text called 'Tahdhib al-asma' (short form of a much longer title which translates roughly as 'the emendation/list of the Names and Attributes') by the 12th century Damascene scholar al Nawawi which is one of the earliest compilation of names, in which you are bound to find the phrase 'Khayr al Khalq Allah'. Finally, a note on location, again. I take your point about the marking of location as an inflection on the power of address (pun intended). I did not think of 'Istanbul' as 'on high' compared to Delhi. I had invoked Istanbul, mainly in a somewhat hap-hazard attempt at addressing what Naeem and Gargi and others have been discussing as the 'Indo-Centric' nature of our discussions. Usually, when I write on the list, I find myself in a modified barsaati in Old Rajendra Nagar (not even as glamorous as Punjabi Bagh, which at least has the ring road to give it gravitas and significance.)I have never thought that such a location had an impact on what I do or do not say, so, similarly, finding myself in Istanbul, I did not think that it had any import on the 'worth' of what I was saying. But thank you, in any case for making me think about the significance of the 'location' of the writer in geographical terms. It may yield something useful at some later date. As for whether or not, these discussions waste time on the list. Of that I can never be sure. Reading the things that came up in the exchange between Yasir, Kshemendra, you and Ramaswamy, made me re-visit some of the things that I have been interested in for a long time. I do not think our 'interests' and curiosities have to be 'useful'. In fact the tyranny of 'utility' and 'function' is something I personally find very limiting, in ordinary discourse, it limits the adventures our thoughts can have. It is up to the reader, whether he or she wants to enter some of the obscure corners of these adventures. Nothing dictates that you, or anyone else, has to. You can always hit 'delete', or decide to keep and read later, to respond, or not to respond. I do all of the above. Apologies for saying more than was probably necessary, again. regards, Shuddha PS : Who is an Urdu-Wallah? Someone who Urdu belongs to (as in someone who lays a claim to Urdu) or as someone who belongs to Urdu (as in someone whom Urdu lays a claim to)? As with other vexed questions of belonging, I have never found a satisfactory claim to this question. My personal preference is inclined towards saying that an Urdu-Wallah is anyone who lays a claim (however appropriate or inappropriate, justified or unjustified) on Urdu. But, I am open to other understandings of this phrase. best S. From adityarajkaul at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 12:52:38 2007 From: adityarajkaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:52:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Reply to Column by Farzana Versey - Fission Kashmir, The Asian Age Message-ID: *Someone recently had posted a column by Farzana Varsey here at Sarai. I found these two letters as a reply to that column in The Asian Age. Check below:* ** http://www.asianage.com/presentation/leftnavigation/opinion/letters-to-editor/congress-intransigence.aspx ** ** *Plight of Pandits* Sir, Farzana Versey's Fission Kashmir (September 4) is a cruel joke on the sorry plight of almost half a million Kashmiri Pandits who were forced to flee the land of their forefathers because of terrorist threats and are languishing as refugees for almost two decades. For the information of the writer, Pamposh Enclave and Amar Colony in New Delhi, with a substantial Kashmiri Pandit population, have been in existence since 1970. If several displaced Pandit families have taken shelter with their relatives in these colonies, instead of taking refuge in refugee camps, it does not lessen the gravity of the ethnic cleansing. What is wrong if educated members of the community are employed on the strength of their qualifications? Does the writer believe that Rs 1,000 as stipend per month in a metropolitan city is a decent amount for living? The fundamental issue is, should any citizen of India be forced to leave his home and hearth just because his religion is different from the religion of his neighbours' who happen to form the majority population? S.K. Chatterji Mulund (West), Mumbai Sir, For Farzana Versey's information, the Pandit refugees who fled Kashmir in 1989-90 never lived in Pamposh Enclave in New Delhi, which was home to Pandits who had migrated on their own before 1989. That she believes the Pandit lobby is strong, is akin to the Indian government believing ISI is strong. Even if that be the case, is it a sin being a strong lobby? Had the Pandit lobby been strong, you would not have 1,200 Pandits killed in violence and yet no one punished. The only sin that the Pandits seem to have committed is that they have educated themselves and got themselves good jobs, rather than waiting for government largesse. The writer also needs to know that the aid that comes from abroad is from Pandits settled abroad, and not from any aid agency. As for Kashmiri Muslims celebrating Martyrs' Day on July 13, the writer does not know that July 13 is also observed as "Batta Loot Day" by Pandits, because on that day hundreds of Pandit houses in downtown Srinagar were looted by irate mobs who were not Sikhs, Dogras or Pandits. It is time the writer went to the camps in Jammu and saw for herself the life that the Pandits lead. Rashneek Kher rashneek at gmail.com Thanks *-- Aditya Raj Kaul Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 15:22:33 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 02:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 51 In-Reply-To: <46E5CAEE.1050906@cs.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <296468.54147.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Sastry and the rest of the readers, Except junaid everybody responded back so nicely. My intention is not quoting countries and continents and writings on world history. If you are so sarcastic to comment on the issues and following the debate, then you would have published your comments as soon as you read Junaid mails on Kashmir? You would have questioned or expressed your views(serious/comic) at the University so that they come to know about India and its current history. IPR/PATENTS as well. (pl refer sarai list to read junaid) Actually I hate to fill those ... --Rome is a part of Europe and hence the history. So as Roman rule over Greece(Athens). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece --Asoka blood shredded at Kalinga war but later he realized and turn into Buddhist and planted trees,dig wells,spread the Buddhism. The Indian National Emblem with 4 Lions, and the Asoka Chakra with 24 spokes on Indian National flag are just tributes to the work of Emperor Asoka. Does Pakistan or China do the same now(Will they turn buddist way by returning the illegal occupations and possessions)? Does any body here(member of the SARAI list) recommend to do so at-least? My writings were retaliations to those facts and our failure to bring it to the notice of the world. Our failure to question the British about monuments they steal, about barbarian attacks of Islamic invaders,and reclaim them!Our Failuer to question the Zinna praposed selfish 2 nation theory over religion which is utterly failed!(Over 150 million muslims living India so happily and so as families living in Pakistan and Bangladesh do have deep rooted family relations to their indian coutnerparts)! If Zinna or anybody else theory(past or present) is correct all these population should a) Find a new place , and move there built a great nation like USA was invented and built. or b) In the name of fact, as I accused earlier(ISLAM is migration to India{AKHAND BHARAT} and so as the people) just go back to their origins wherever they come from and live happily. or c) Just Unite together and follow the Unity in diversity and uniqueness in patriotism. Why so much noice? The interest of Pakistan and China over Occupied lands of Jammu and Kashmir. I suggested to claim the INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS/PATENTS over 0 now. Like USA filed for PATENTS over basmati,neem and turmeric some body else may claim for the same and we(India/Indians where ever) nothing to do with that, but just writing articles on sarai about India,South Asia in an artistic and poetic way. Condemning each other and showing par excellence in the name of language,diplomacy,friendship etc., . As some member told we may release a comic book utmost or direct or produce a film and send it to CANES or OSCAR film festivals for screening. Some body don't know, Some unable to do(though they know), rest will not do(though they know and able to do). What will happen? Who will care? If we believe in any thing that exist on this universe which is capable, will execute the things when time comes. "Karmanye Vadhikaraste Ma Phaleshu Kadachana Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani" --"You have a right to perform your prescribed action,but you are not entitled to the fruits of your action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results your activities,and never be associated to not doing your duty." Further I hesitate to apologize for hurting anybody in any way. But will do for time being as you represent intellectual,educated,boarder-less,DIPLOMATIC,cyber community. I request you all plese don't loose the focus of the main issue and the possible solutoins if any that can be implemented with mere feasibility. Regards, Dhatri. Subramanya Sastry wrote: we wi wrote: > USA IS HAVING JUST 500 YEARS OF HISTORY > What do you have to say of the indigenous people that pre-dated the european settlers? > EUROPE --PROBABLY 3000 YEARS > ASIA - INDIA IS THE OLDEST > Akhand bharat yani INDIA -- pre harappan culture,history,wealth,knowledge And, while you are at it, could you care to enlighten us about African and Australian histories? Pardon my ignorance ... Hmm ... thinking about it ... I see why you might not have mentioned those two ... those Africans were anyway born to be slaves of the 500-year-old-history writers ... and if you ignore the aboriginals of Australia, that continent was full of thugs and scoundrels and prisoners and all ... never mind ... and so, that country / continent is essentially is a lineage of scoundrels ... I am beginning to understand how it works now ... :-) Subbu. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. From monica at sarai.net Wed Sep 12 14:02:51 2007 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:02:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sarai/Clarification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all A clarification for everyone since the discussion list is often invoked as Sarai in some recent postings: This is the Reader-list hosted (amongst a number of other list-servs) by Sarai-CSDS. This is part of Sarai's attempt to facilitate inter- disciplinary and wide-ranging discussions amongst diverse publics. Moreover, when people with a sarai.net address post on the list, that is an individual's own response, unless categorically stated as something from Sarai. To know more about Sarai's own research and practice domains, please go to www.sarai.net thanks best List-Admin Monica Narula Sarai-CSDS 29 Rajpur Road Delhi 110 054 www.sarai.net From hpp at vsnl.com Wed Sep 12 12:49:17 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:49:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pedagogical Faultlines workshop References: <370b7f51768cfb16ed0b3da80aa7cdd6@sarai.net> Message-ID: <00d301c7f518$ce63b690$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Dear Friends Many thanks to Sharan and Gora for their kind replies to my mail. I look forward to your sharing of the presentations of the workshop. Let me put my views in a nutshell. If we look at the "education system" in India, we have a perfect "apartheid" system. Millions upon millions of children are condemned at birth to a severely bounded life. And that is even if they make it to school and also complete schooling. Quantity and quality are both factors. And basically, there is total apathy from the top to the bottom of the machinery of governance to the cause of "education for all", and "equal opportunity". And the educated, privileged, empowered citizenry too is largely apathetic. The second issue is about schools as they currently exist, including the so-called "good" schools. Our understanding today of the human being and of the world - renders these schools irrelevant, redundant and harmful to the cause of a just and humane society. Besides, economic and cultural globalisation (in the positive senses), information and communication technology, changing mores - all render existing schools, curricula, teaching, textbooks etc utterly meaningless. The "good schools" as they now exist, notwithstanding all the "progressive" changes they are making; and the attitudes and world-views of the parents who send their children there - are unlikely to undergo any fundamental changes for quite some time. Current socio-economic disparities are also only going to grow. So actually, ironically, other than being consigned to darkness and powerlessness, those deprived of the "good schools" are actually deprived of a non-thing. So they are not really so badly off. The thing that empowers the powerful is a non-thing. It is only a means for power in a distorted society. It does not have instrinsic value in itself. Sadly, even after forming a child negatively, or rather for that very reason, it continues to exist and be looked up to and aspired for. But this also means that the deprived have now to be empowered with a new thing, which can begin to exist and grow from them. What currently exists - schools - can be entirely bypassed, and a new thing provided / realised by the deprived. All the traditional barriers to learning can be bypassed. And the most deprived and dismpowered can very soon be the most empowered. Education, schooling, schools, curricula, teaching etc have to be radically redefined. We have to begin from first principles as it were, and think out anew: what needs to be learnt, why, how? We have the traditional 3 Rs, reading writing, 'rithmetic (numeracy). One of my mentors, Patrick Geddes, had spoken of the 3 Hs - head, hand, heart. And I believe Ramachandra Gandhi spoke of the 3 Es: ethics, ecology, enlightenment. One could surely come up with many more 3s! The primary aim of the "school" must be to bring the child to self-learning capability in a life and profession of one's choice, with the help of learning counsellers, and computers and the internet. This could be boiled down to a very small amount of time. The rest of the time being devoted to the child's physical, mental, sensory, emotional, lingusitic, social, cognitive, intellectual growth and self-awareness. Generating "teachers" i.e. learning counsellors is as important an objective as providing education. For without teachers, there cannot be education. But today's "teachers" are a far cry from what people really need. Someone has to take the responsibility to imagine today's schools, education system, teachers - don't exist. And take the responsibility to conceive, envision, define, detail and demonstrate an alternative. Beginning with the limited core of "formal education". This is something I want very much. "When the saints come marching in, Lord I want to be in that number ..." I would like to offer myself for this endeavour. I believe I have much to contribute towards that, from close to 25 years of engagement with education. This requires a large team of people, from different experience streams, backgrounds, disciplies, professions. So here is my plea to all who might be interested - to come forward to take up this challenge! Thank you for your patience. With best wishes and regards, Yours sincerely V Ramaswamy Calcutta From ysikand at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 14:29:37 2007 From: ysikand at gmail.com (Yogi Sikand) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 03:59:37 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fifth Posting: Delhi Muslim Publishing Houses Message-ID: <48097acc0709120159r77aa59cbne588ba4eb736e187@mail.gmail.com> Dar ul-Qalam: A Barelvi Publishing House With a Difference Naseem ur-Rahman & Yoginder Sikand A significant number of South Asian Muslims are associated with what can be loosely defined as the Barelvi tradition, named after the late nineteenth century defender of the cults of the Sufi shrines Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi. In contrast to various South Asian reformist Islamic groups and movements, the Barelvi tradition is loosely organized, lacking the strong network of institutions of other Muslim groupings. Barelvi ulema have, by and large, been loath to work with ulema of other Muslim groups, seeing many of these as 'Wahhabi' and 'anti-Islam'. Much Barelvi scholarship is devoted to rebutting the claims of other Muslim groups, dismissing them as 'deviant' and 'un-Islamic'. Cinsequently, many other Muslims see the Barelvis as 'backward', 'sectarian', 'superstitious' and 'quarrelsome'. For their part, few scholars writing on the Indian Muslims have cared to seriously explore the Barelvi tradition, seeing it as a rapidly declining trend in the face of the apparent decline of the Sufi cults. Fifty-five year old Maulana Yasin Akhtar Misbahi is a leading Indian Barelvi scholar. Born in 1953 in a village in Azamgarh district in eastern Uttar Pradesh, he received a traditional religious education at the apex Barelvi madrasa in India, the Jamiat ul-Ashrafiya in Azamgarh, graduating in 1970. From then on, his career has been quite atypical of most Barelvi ulema. He is one of the very few Barelvis to have taken admission in the Nadwat ul-Ulama madrasa in Lucknow, which traditional Barelvis see as representing a 'Wahhabi' form of Islam that it shares with the major rivals of the Barelvis, the Deobandis. After completing a course in Arabic literature at the Nadwa, Misbahi returned to the Jamiat ul-Ashrafia, where he taught Arabic for a little less than a decade. In 1984, he shifted to Delhi, where he launched a monthly magazine, Kanzul Iman, and wrote several books and articles for various Indian and Pakistani Urdu papers. In 1991, he established the Dar ul-Qalam in New Delhi, a research centre that aims at producing a genre of literature in marked contrast to the standard Barelvi polemical writings. 'Dar ul-Qalam aims at engaging in new forms of research and producing socially relevant literature that departs from the petty squabbling and nit-picking so characteristic of much of the existing literature', Misbahi explains. Till date, Dar ul-Qalam has produced 15 books, all written by Maulana Misbahi himself. Indicating the shift to a more socially engaged and relevant form of literature that the Dar ul-Qalam sees itself as promoting, some of these books aim to promote better relations between Muslims and Hindus. 'One book of mine, published in both Hindi and Urdu, deals with certain verses of the Quran which Hindutva ideologues misinterpret to argue that Islam calls for war against all non-Muslims. Another book deals with the history and ideology of Hindutva, there being an extreme paucity of writings in Urdu on the subject. A third deals with the history of the Babri Masjid, countering Hindutva arguments about the case'. 'Many non-Muslims and even many Muslims', Misbahi goes on, 'do not know anything about the role of the Muslims in India's freedom struggle. To highlight this I've published a book recounting the numerous ulema who participated in the uprising of 1857 against the British, and another one on a charismatic alim, Maulana Fazl Haq Khairabadi, who was deported to the Andaman islands by the British for his role in the 1857 revolt'. 'Our Hindu countrymen need to be reminded of this important role of Muslims in the freedom of the country. The Hindutva propaganda against Muslims needs to be effectively countered by Muslim writers', the Maulana explains. 'Today, there is so much propaganda against Islam and Muslims in the media. In this regard, Muslim writers have a major role to play in reaching out to non-Muslims to explain their position'. Yet, the Maulana laments that few middle-class Muslims take any interest in doing so, leaving this task largely to the ulema. 'There is an increasing number of ulema today who are writing on such social issues, but the problem is that few of them can write in any language other than Urdu. Consequently, their reach remains limited to an almost entirely Muslim audience. Muslims who know Hindi and English must take upon themselves the task of rendering these works into Hindi, English and other languages and also producing similar literature themselves. Sadly, this is lacking', the Maulana laments. As a way out, the Maulana recommends that the ulema themselves learn English, Hindi and other languages so as to directly communicate with people of other faiths through their writings. There are indications that this may soon begin to happen, with increasing numbers of madrasa graduates now enrolling in universities, where they can learn new languages and, for the first time in their lives, closely interact with people of other faiths. But the purpose of dialogue is not just to communicate to others. Rather, the Maulana says, the ulema should also be willing to learn about what others feel and believe. As of now, he says, there is little interaction between the ulema and people of other faiths. 'This has to change. The responsibility for this is on both sides.' The Dar ul-Qalam departs from most other Barelvi publishing houses in yet another way: by steering clear of polemical issues that set the different Muslim sects against each other. 'It is natural that there will be differences between followers of different religions or even among followers of the same religion. Such differences can never be done away with', Maulana Misbahi says. 'Writers need to recognize this and seek to focus on the issues that the different Muslim sects or Muslims and Hindus have in common, rather than keep harping on their differences. If you denounce others or demand that they become identical to you, far from producing this result it will only lead to more strife', he explains. He laments the fact that numerous Muslim, including Barelvi, publishing houses actively promote sectarianism by publishing polemical material directed at other Muslim sects, denouncing them as 'un-Islamic'. 'It's basically all about profit', the Maulana avers. 'If publishers find that they will get more money publishing the books of their ideological rivals, they might well do so!', he adds. 'Let the different sects publish books that present their own views, but without denouncing the adherents of other sects or other religions'. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 16:00:02 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:00:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Will ships use the canal at such costs? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709120330s52a15759j9dda2ac0d546333d@mail.gmail.com> *Will ships use the canal at such costs?* K.S.Ramakrishnan Former Deputy Chairman, Madras Port Trust 16 July 2005 The basic justification of the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project (SSCP) is that it will reduce the distance between Kolkata and Tuticorin by 340 nautical miles and between Chennai and Tuticorin by 434 nautical miles, thereby saving for the ships plying between these places both fuel cost and time involved in sailing the additional distance. This justification will be readily valid if the SSC is a free seaway which ships can sail through without any payment to the project authority. But the SSC can not be a free seaway… as ships will be allowed to pass through the canal only under regulated pilotage, and pushed /pulled by tugs belonging to the SSCP. Obviously, even while saving on the cost of fuel, a ship passing through the canal will be expected to make a payment to the SSCP for using the facility. The likely pilotage charge to be levied by the SSCP has not been made public, but an approximate figure can be guessed by extrapolating similar charges levied by the Chennai and Tuticorin Port at present. The approach channel to the Chennai port has a length of 7 km. A 36,000 tonne coal ship calling at Chennai has to pay approximately Rs.21.75 a tonne, or a total of Rs.7.83 lakh, as pilotage charges averaging Rs.1.11lakh per km. Tuticorin's approach channel is only 2.4 km long and an identical coal ship calling at this port is levied Rs.17 a tonne, or a total of 6.12 lakh, towards pilotage, working out to Rs.3 lakh per km. (The comparative lower rate per km at Chennai is because the capitol cost of digging the much older channel has been amortised a long time ago.) The projected length of the Sethusamudram channel is 56 km. Both capital and recurring cost will be much higher for the SSCP than for the Chennai and Tuticorin ports, and its levy of pilotage per km is likely to be substantially higher than that of even the latter if it has to have a 9 per cent return on the capital. Even if the Chennai rate is assumed, the same ship will have to pay over 60 lakhs to the SSCP for passing through the canal. But the cost of fuel that will be saved by the same ship by taking the shorter route through the Sethusamudram canal instead of sailing round Sri Lanka will be less than Rs. 7 lakh, which is even less than 1/8 of SSCP's likely levy. The saving in sailing time for that ship will also be substantially less than the 36 hours projected by the SSCP because the ship can not be towed through the canal at its normal speed through the canal, and the time will also be lost in embarkation/disembarkation of pilots and other inspection procedures. The saving in sailing time of just about a day will not justify the incurring of over 8 times the cost of fuel saved. http://ramsethu.org/history10.html From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 16:16:29 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 03:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <20070911123612.15090.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <407129.21772.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from Gujarat . If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, Dhatri == Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother Earth. If you have patience to look at these terms just go through the entire link or just fire a find (Cntl+F) and type these terms over there. http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh parishaths, Madras’s and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. India HINDU comes first and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen of India, Valid Passport holder, It’s my Constitutional right to vote as per my choice and live. Those all who never completed schooling and aware of India Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices to enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. Focusing on the topic now, What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing converse logic and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. >If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in the >same month as India, so perhaps they might reply by dispatching some >of them into India if India goes for hot chases, surgical strikes, >masala dosas, bhel pooris etc. YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like India). Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical Induction,on Junaid statement “Pakistani nuclear weapons won’t reach US democrat” so as the same will be true and applicable that “they will not move out of their depots wherever they are”. I will prove it how India can execute it later. --Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham TRANSLATION Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata, and a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! OR Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend myself. So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple understanding is the 9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more remaining to come. The followers of Buddhism now misunderstood it. --And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to the world or a bunch of people like you. What to do if people/countries like you are betraying then bullying is the last sort of option. I don’t know how many of the readers aware of this but happy to quote from the first Para of the post --Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business --On 0, Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and joviality (professor student) and your will in favor/against PATENTING and IPR is nothing to do with the practicalities. You may say that countries/you can use 0 as “orez” in your/their OWN WAY. No problem you/countries can write whatever the way they wish to use. I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members aware that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva pact. Under this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and applicable to India? Let me explain more scientifically. Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate on “bit”. A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to use 0 for general purposes. It depends again. Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear dispatch, for moving them people need INDIA permission. We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and need a motivated, will powered political system to execute this. This is feasible 99%. Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. --On points 1,2,3 You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and Sadhus Shri Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). Because they are all sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You will never compare them with Aurangazeb. For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its boarders from Alexander to British 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka 3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana For your better understanding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg -- On points 4,5 Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your writing are in genuine, I request you to please 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne -- On points 6,7,8 Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna daughter is dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it till her teenage (before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. |This is the fact and for your kind information. I pity for Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah sister who migrated to Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR is an Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from Pakistan and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid or like personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to vacate peaks occupied and offered. Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive India is ready welcome the kid. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 18:08:04 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 05:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz and AnalHaq In-Reply-To: <571997.82012.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <718205.95487.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul and Yasir and all other interested ones "These matters that with myself I too much discuss Too much explain" From Ash Wednesday by T S Eliot Picking up the threads...... I would disagree with Rahul that Faiz was a "dehria" (atheist). I do not subscribe to the thought that Communism and more importantly Marxism automaticaly suggests atheism. Atheism is as much of an "I know the truth" declaration as Theism. It is equally presumptuous. I venture the thought that it would be very easy for a Muslim to subscribe to Marxism. In my opinion, some of the finest precepts of Islam are common to some of the finest precepts in Marxism. My qualified "some" is essential because I do not want to quibble over the "position and rights of women" and the "regularising of slavery" in Islam. For me, to inject a personal note, the Spirituality (as being distinctly different from Religosity) is in the Agnostic's "I do not Know and I am open to Knowing". That is also the essential attribute of the "seeking" at the ever expanding frontiers of science. It is progressive (correlations intended). I see Faiz as an agnostic. Getting back to Faiz, Yasir has spoken about the religious metaphors in Faiz's poem "Hum daikhaingay". You cannot ignore them. There is not any ambiguity either, I think. Faiz would not use a word like "Khudah" (God) just for the sake of poetic balances. I am sure Faiz knew what was meant by "Khudah". "Khalq e Khudah" is the people who are God's creations. Did Faiz mean only the Muslims? I do not think so. The people, the masses. Faiz does not mock or dismiss "Khudah". Faiz also writes "arz e Khudah kay Kaabe say, sabb butth uthwaye jaayaingay"( all the idols will be removed from Kaa'ba). Certainly Faiz new that all idols had been removed/destroyed in Kaa'ba (Muslims call it the House of God) many centuries back. What Kaa'ba was Faiz referring to and who/what were the idols? Faiz uses the expression "hum ahl e safaa" (we the people lined up in the mosque or for namaaz). He includes himself. Hardly a Dehria. But, which/what mosque? Most interesting, for me is " utthayga an al haq ka naara, jo main bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho" (shouts will resound that I am the Truth, the Truth that you are, the Truth that I am too). In that perhaps is Faiz's attitude towards the formal, expected and usually found acceptable religious norms. Is there a 'sufi' attitude also in it in addition to the political statement? I that am your Truth my Lord without any intercession, I and we the people my Lord and this our Earth that you made for us. Rahul wrote "Analhaq is a good summary statement of sufism". Sufism is one of the finest understandings of Islam (submission). Quite a submission. My opinion. To digress, was Mansur Bin Hallaj's An-al-Haq influenced by his travels which included Hind (India)? "An-al-Haq" mirrors the attitude of "Aham Bramhasmi, Aham Vishnur, Aham Mahesha" (I am the Creator, I the Preserver, I the Destroyer). In other words I am God's reflection in every sense and aspect. The Object and the Reflection are One, I am God. Another digression. This precept from Dharma (being seen by me as distinctly different from Hinduism) is fascinating for me. It is the closest that a Theological idea comes to Scientific understanding. Anything, and I mean anything whatsoever whether material or even a thought has the aspects of being Formed, Have a Life Span and then Die. But Death is not an absolute, there is a Transformation and the cycle continues in a new form. Nothing ends, it only alters. Am not talking about things like "soul" and "after life" but in pure materialistic terms. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh. Such commonality. Is that the reason why "Sufi" attitudes, exemplified by "An al Haq" found themselves fairly easily understood and perhaps accepted in Hind (India)? There ware also other common threads such as Meditation and later the "Bakhti Rasa" (Devotional) expressed though song. I know that some strongly believe that the "sufi" garb was just a devious strategy to make inroads and convert. That is another topic altogether. Kshmendra Kaul Rahul Asthana wrote: Hi Yasir That was a very interesting post.Are you saying that sufism has been interpreted differently by different scholars,and hence there is no essential nature of sufism?In my simplistic understanding,sufism is something very personal;between an individual and God;to remove every obstacle/diversion between the two. Analhaq is a good summary statement of sufism. So when you say that Iqbal says "sufism was not an abstraction but lay in re-engaging with the collective community",I somehow find Iqbal's redefinition unpalatable. For example,as you yourself have said,Maududi cant be called sufi by any stretch of imagination. I hope you will excuse my limited understanding of the subject. My second question is about anal haq.I somehow find Faiz's usage of this phrase disingenuous.Faiz would have known its history,Im sure.What was his intention? If this is about a movement against dictatorship,why bring a phrase which has religious overtones and which is connected with apostasy into it? Thank you Rahul --- yasir ~ wrote: > KK and Rahul > > various people - muslim writers/"reformers" - have > reacted to worked > through, sufi ideas differently in hindustan. this > wasn't always to > reassert orthodoxy of the time, but also a somewhat > intertwined > attempt to engage with the collective. > > so you have mujjadid alf saani against chishtis and > shias, shah wali > ullah working with various schools including sufi > and shia, > > iqbal a scholar of arabic, persian metaphysics and > german idealism of > goethe, hegel and nietzche saying that the higher > stage of sufism was > not an abstraction but lay in re-engaging with the > collective > community, > > maududi (the other widely-read/known scholar with > iqbal) reacting > against his sufi legacy and the deoband school to > engage with the > collective socius and work towards asserting power > though electoral > party politics (such as in pakistan), > > and faiz, not unlike iqbal but in his own way) > re-worked urdu poetry's > mythological legacy (which is both metaphysivcal and > sufi) to engage > with society through his poetry - faiz being a > founding? member of the > progressive writers movement/association, whose > membership in general > was revolutionary communist. > > i was trying to sketch here, with my ignorance, as > helpful as that > might be, to illustrate how people have worked > variously through/with > sufi ideas. > > best > > yasir > > > > > On 9/6/07, Kshmendra Kaul : > > > > > > For me there is not much of a contradiction. Both > were revolutionaries. Both > > had a "sufi" bent of mind. Both seemed to > celeberate "khudi". > > > > In my opinion the seeming contradiction might > arise out of a limited > > understanding of Iqbal. More philosopher than > "Islamist" (also more > > Philosopher than Poet). A purist (a Salafi???) who > primarily stuck to the > > finest precepts from the "Quran" (somewhat a > Parvaizi). A "Shikvah" is not > > the work of an ordinary soul subscribing to the > "expected". > > > > In my opinion, Iqbal's politics (the egging on of > Jinnah) was more towards > > "a Nation for Muslims" rather than an "Islamic > (shariah) Nation". The 1940 > > Lahore resolution and Jinnah's Constituent > Assembly speech are just 2 > > pointers. > > & Rahul Asthana : > > Faiz was a "dehria" communist,if you know what I > mean.Iqbal was an Islamist.Being a poet and a > philosopher is not contrary to being an > Islamist.So,in > that sense,there can be no greater contrast. > Iqbal's philosophy of religious existentialism- > mard-e-momin, khudi etc was based on Islam.I do not > see the same celebration of "khudi" in Faiz. > Also,Iqbal was not sufi either.Iqbal wrote a lot in > Persian.Poetry in every language has a soul of its > own.When you write in Persian,you cant but help > poets > like Hafez and Rumi whispering in your ear;and the > mysticism rubs off on you.That can be found in Iqbal > too.But,Iqbal's philosophy has nothing to do with > sufism.In fact,my impression is that in his dialog > Iblees o Jibrael, he is deriding sufis- > "Main khataktaa hoon dile yazdaan mein kaante ki > tarah, > tu faqat, alla hoo alla hoo ,alla hoo." > This IMO, is Nietzsche style existentialism. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! From nicholas.senn at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 18:25:23 2007 From: nicholas.senn at gmail.com (Nicholas Brown) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:55:23 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Just Space(s) // LACE (Los Angeles Contemporary Exhibitions) // September 26 - November 18, 2007 Message-ID: Just Space(s) September 26 – November 18, 2007 LACE (Los Angeles Contemporary Exhibitions) Organized by Ava Bromberg and Nicholas Brown http://www.justspaces.org/ OPENING RECEPTION: Wednesday, September 26, 7-9pm Download "Just Space(s)" Press Release & Events Schedule: http://www.justspaces.org/press/just_spaces_press_FINAL.pdf ====== /// INTRODUCTION /// Everyday we confront spaces that don't work - from our neighborhoods and parks, to our prisons, pipelines and borders. In this exhibition and programming series, artists, scholars and activists reveal how these spaces function - and dysfunction - making way for thought and action to create just societies and spaces. The projects in this exhibition reflect the renewed recognition that space matters to cutting edge activist practices and to artists and scholars whose work pursues similar goals of social justice. A spatial frame offers new insights into understanding not only how injustices are produced, but also how spatial consciousness can advance the pursuit of social justice, informing concrete claims and the practices that make these claims visible. Understanding that space - like justice - is never simply handed out or given, that both are socially produced, differentiated, experienced and contested on constantly shifting social, political, economic, and geographical terrains, means that justice - if it is to be concretely achieved, experienced, and reproduced - must be engaged on spatial as well as social terms. By transforming LACE, in part, into an active learning environment, Just Space(s) seeks to provide visitors with tools to consider alternatives to reactionary and essentializing political discourse that tends to dominate and frame our conceptions of justice - and constrain our abilities to imagine and implement it. The exhibition presents some of the most innovative and efficacious contemporary artistic, activist, and scholarly work engaging social and spatial analyses. In addition, a library/infoshop and symposia and event series extend the scope and scale of the main exhibition. Taken in whole or in part, Just Space(s) aims not merely to show what is unjust about our world, but to inspire visitors to consider what the active production of just space(s) might look like. It asks a crucial question: How do we move from injustice to justice exactly where we stand - in our neighborhoods and our institutions, at the level of the body, the home, the street corner, the city, the region, the network, the supranational trade agreement and every space within, between, and beyond? While much theorizing about - and active experimentation with - the role and potential of a spatial justice framework remains undone, this exhibition and its public programming contribute to the articulation of a powerful concept/tool that links critical theory and ethical practice. Just Space(s) builds upon the recent publication of a special volume of Critical Planning (UCLA Journal of Urban Planning, Volume 14, Summer 2007) on the theme of spatial justice, which also serves as a companion to the exhibition. Follow the links below to download PDFs of selected essays from the special volume, including "Editorial Note: Why Spatial Justice?" by Ava Bromberg, Gregory D. Morrow, and Deirdre Pfeiffer, and a spatial justice bibliography. Visit the Critical Planning website for more information and to purchase a copy of the journal. http://criticalspatialpractice.blogspot.com/2007/08/spatial-justice.html http://www.spa.ucla.edu/critplan/current_issue.htm http://www.justspaces.org/ http://criticalspatialpractice.blogspot.com/2007/09/just-spaces.html ====== LACE (Los Angeles Contemporary Exhibitions) 6522 Hollywood Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA 90028 Wed-Sun 12-6pm, Fri 12-9pm 323.957.1777 / http://www.welcometolace.org ====== EXHIBITION OVERVIEW, SYMPOSIA & LIBRARY/INFOSHOP http://www.justspaces.org/overview.htm http://www.justspaces.org/symposia.htm http://www.justspaces.org/infoshop.htm ====== EXHIBITION THEMES & PROJECTS http://www.justspaces.org/themes.htm THEME#1 >>> (IM)MOBILITY / PRISONS AND THE PRISON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX The Corrections Documentary Project (Ashley Hunt) /// Million Dollar Blocks (Spatial Information Design Lab) /// Up the Ridge (Appalshop's Holler to the Hood) THEME#2 >>> (IM)MOBILITY / BORDERS, LABOR, MIGRATION The Black Sea Files (Ursula Biemann) /// Political Equator (Teddy Cruz) /// disOrientation Guide (Counter-Cartographies Collective) /// Spatial Justice for Ayn Hawd (Sabine Horlitz and Oliver Clemens) /// Searching for Our Destination (Ayreen Anastas and Rene Gabri ) /// Water Station Maps and Warning Posters (Humane Borders and No More Deaths) /// Host Not Found: A Traveling Monument of the Suppression of Search (Markus Miessen and Patricia Reed) THEME#3 >>> ECONOMIC JUSTICE / THE RIGHT TO THE CITY The Figueroa Corridor Coalition for Economic Justice (SAJE - Strategic Actions for a Just Economy) /// Mobile Planning Lab for South LA (Scott Berzofsky, Chris Gladora, Dane Nester, Nicholas Wisniewski, and SAJE) /// UTOPIA-dystopia (Los Angeles Poverty Department) /// Principles of Unity (Right to the City Alliance) /// RFK in EKY (Appalshop and John Malpede) /// Spatializing Labor Campaigns (Service Employees International Union) THEME#4 >>> ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE / PUBLIC HEALTH Syracuse City Hunger Project Maps (Syracuse Community Geography) /// LATWIDNO - Land access to which is denied no one (Sarah Lewison and Erin McGonigle) /// Invisible5 (Amy Balkin, Tim Halbur, and Kim Stringfellow) /// Public Green (Lize Mogel) /// Public Access 101 - Malibu Public Beaches (Los Angeles Urban Rangers) /// Best Not to Be Here? (Marie Cieri) THEME#5 >>> RACIALIZATION OF SPACE / SPATIALIZATION OF RACE Detroit Do Your Thing (The Center for Urban Pedagogy) /// Detroit's Underdevelopment (Adrian Blackwell) /// The New Yorkers' Guide to Military Recruitment in the 5 Boroughs (Friends of William Blake) /// A People's Guide to Los Angeles (Laura Pulido) THEME#6 >>> LAND / INDIGENOUS EPISTEMOLOGIES, LAND CLAIMS & TREATY RIGHTS A Century of Genocide in the Americas: The Residential School Experience (Rosemary Gibbons and Dax Thomas - Boarding School Healing Project) /// Dakota Commemorative March (Waziyatawin Angela Wilson and David Miller) /// Secret Military Landscapes and the Pentagon's "Black World" (Trevor Paglen) /// Spiral Lands (Andrea Geyer) From ayonadatta at hotmail.com Wed Sep 12 18:41:38 2007 From: ayonadatta at hotmail.com (Ayona Datta) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:11:38 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Ritual of eating ashes Message-ID: Dear Readers, Does anyone know about the ritual of eating ashes? I recently encountered this when someone ate the ashes from an incense pot after finishing her prayers. Having never seen this before, I am wondering if someone can shed light on this. Is this something connected to religion, caste, ethnicity etc? or was this a one-off? Sorry for my ignorance, but I would appreciate some help on this to understand some of my research experiences. Many Thanks Ayona _________________________________________________________________ Get free emoticon packs and customisation from Windows Live. http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk From 125548 at soas.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 19:05:11 2007 From: 125548 at soas.ac.uk (MATTI POHJONEN) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:35:11 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Mass Media and the Politics of Change - Conferenec Message-ID: <1189604111.95bf33c125548@soas.ac.uk> Friends, (apologies for cross posting): This is to invite you to attend a postgraduate conference "Indian Mass Media and the Politics of Change" at SOAS, Russell Square, University of London on October 13th, 2007. This is a daylong conference and the papers cover several key themes concerning contemporary media in India including issues of sexuality, environment, poverty and digital culture. Keynote speakers include Prof. Laura Mulvey and Dr Johk Hutnyk. The entry to this conference is free. For more details, we have attached a poster with this mail or go to our website at http://sacredmediacow.com/?page_id=450. Please do feel free to forward this information. With best wishes The sacredmediacow team Matti Pohjonen SOAS (University of London) Teaching Fellow, Film and Media Studies Dept sacredmediacow.com From nicheant at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 12 21:07:11 2007 From: nicheant at yahoo.co.uk (Nishant) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:37:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] How Publishers Reject Message-ID: <519822.90397.qm@web27906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Some people on the list may enjoy it. Nishant. ____________________________ 'No Thanks, Mr. Nabokov' By David Oshinsky IN THE SUMMER of 1950, Alfred A. Knopf Inc. turned down the English-language rights to a Dutch manuscript after receiving a particularly harsh reader's report. The work was "very dull," the reader insisted, "a dreary record of typical family bickering, petty annoyances and adolescent emotions." Sales would be small because the main characters were neither familiar to Americans nor especially appealing. "Even if the work had come to light five years ago, when the subject was timely," the reader wrote, "I don't see that there would have been a chance for it." Knopf wasn't alone. "The Diary of a Young Girl," by Anne Frank, would be rejected by 15 others before Doubleday published it in 1952. More than 30 million copies are currently in print, making it one of the best-selling books in history. The Anne Frank reader's report is part of the massive Knopf archive housed in the Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center at the University of Texas . The document is one of thousands tucked away in the publisher's rejection files, a place where whopping editorial blunders are mercifully entombed. Nothing embarrasses a publisher more than the public knowledge that a literary classic or a mega best seller has somehow slipped away. One of them turned down Pearl Buck's novel "The Good Earth" on the grounds that Americans were "not interested in anything on China." Another passed on George Orwell's "Animal Farm," explaining it was "impossible to sell animal stories in the U.S.A." (It's not only publishers: Tony Hillerman was dumped by an agent who urged him to "get rid of all that Indian stuff.") For almost a century, Knopf has been the gold standard in the book trade, publishing the works of 17 Nobel Prize-winning authors as well as 47 Pulitzer Prize-winning volumes of fiction, nonfiction, biography and history. Recently, however, scholars trolling through the Knopf archive have been struck by the number of reader's reports that badly missed the mark, especially where new talent was concerned. The rejection files, which run from the 1940s through the 1970s, include dismissive verdicts on the likes of Jorge Luis Borges ("utterly untranslatable"), Isaac Bashevis Singer ("It's Poland and the rich Jews again"), Anaïs Nin ("There is no commercial advantage in acquiring her, and, in my opinion, no artistic"), Sylvia Plath ("There certainly isn't enough genuine talent for us to take notice") and Jack Kerouac ("His frenetic and scrambling prose perfectly express the feverish travels of the Beat Generation. But is that enough? I don't think so"). In a two-year stretch beginning in 1955, Knopf turned down manuscripts by Jean-Paul Sartre, Mordecai Richler, and the historians A. J. P. Taylor and Barbara Tuchman, not to mention Vladimir Nabokov's "Lolita" (too racy) and James Baldwin's "Giovanni's Room" ("hopelessly bad"). As a historian, I was most interested in the files of my professional colleagues. I went through them, I must admit, anticipating a pile of windy pronouncements and delicious mistakes. Reader's reports can be wildly subjective, reflecting the quirks and biases of the reviewer, and the history rejection files are hardly immune. In the 1940s and '50s, Knopf sent a fair number of American history manuscripts to a notorious curmudgeon whose scathing critiques could peel bark from a tree. In one reader's report, we see him demolish a well-known historian, calling her research "shockingly inadequate" and her writing "fairly drab." In another, he works over a promising scholar, describing the prose as "a bit better than Ph.D. English" and claiming that "the mountain of his research has produced a mouse of a thesis." The carnage complete, the reader adds a cautiously protective postscript: "Of course my name must not be mentioned." Professor X "and I are acquaintances and I like him very much as a person." (Both manuscripts would be published elsewhere to glowing reviews.) Actually, darts like these turned up less frequently than I expected. Even in the rejection files, where negativity reigned, the great bulk of the reader's reports seemed fair-minded and persuasive. Put simply, a rejected manuscript usually appeared to deserve its fate. The final arbiters were Alfred A. Knopf, his wife Blanche Knopf (who took over as company president in 1957) and their editor in chief, Harold Strauss. After a manuscript was judged to be wrong for the list — a process that included input from numerous people — a rejection letter would follow, often written by the publisher himself. Sometimes the problem was financial. Alfred Knopf personally turned down R. R. Palmer's classic, "The Age of the Democratic Revolution," telling the Princeton historian that his book would never earn back the $7,750 in "total production costs" the project would require — a big mistake, it turned out. He rejected a biography of Sir Robert Walpole by the distinguished British historian J. H. Plumb, claiming that the manuscript, while "a good piece of history," would be lucky to sell 750 copies in the United States. And he declined a manuscript by William Appleman Williams, the father of New Left diplomatic history, writing to him that "fundamentally your book would be an editorial in hard covers, and it is difficult almost to the point of impossible to persuade readers to pay money for the privilege of reading" such works. Going through these letters, one is struck by the more upbeat tone employed with younger scholars. Though the Knopfs and Strauss had little use for a revised doctoral dissertation — that, they believed, was the reason God created university presses — they understood that cultivating fresh talent was a process in which doors must remain open, and that the next manuscript might well be the charm. A typical rejection letter to a newly minted historian would conclude with Alfred Knopf's prediction that "one of these days we will have something from you that we can publish with gusto." What most disturbed the Knopfs and Strauss were auspicious projects by accomplished scholars that failed to measure up. Upon receiving a long-anticipated manuscript in 1952 from John Hope Franklin, whose earlier book, "From Slavery to Freedom," had sold well for Knopf, Strauss responded: "I am terribly sorry to have to tell you that, while we recognize the scholarly merits of the manuscript, we are deeply disappointed in its trade possibilities. We feel that you have completely missed your chance to write a colorful and dramatic book." In 1958, Alfred Knopf sent this pointed note to T. Harry Williams, a professor of Southern history, who also had published a successful book with the company a few years before: "Dear Harry — I am terribly sorry because I would love to have a really good manuscript from you, but 'Americans at War' isn't it." (Williams wasn't amused. "Enclosed is a check for $1," he replied, "which is sufficient for return postage first class. I would appreciate getting the manuscript back immediately.") Such was Knopf's reputation, however, that authors kept lining up for more. Indeed, in the years between 1940 and 1980, it would have been possible to staff a distinguished history department using scholars who published important books at Knopf after having at least one of their previous works rejected there — a roster that includes Williams, whose "Huey Long" won the Pulitzer Prize for biography in 1970; Tuchman, whose biggest sellers for Knopf included "A Distant Mirror" and "The March of Folly"; Kenneth Stampp, whose 1956 book "The Peculiar Institution" revolutionized the study of American slavery; and Michael Kammen, whose "People of Paradox" was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for history in 1973. Today, as publishers eschew the finished manuscript and spit out contracts based on a sketchy outline or even less, the scripting of rejection letters has become something of a lost art. It's hard to imagine a current publisher dictating the sort of response that Alfred Knopf sent to a prominent Columbia University historian in the 1950s. "This time there's no point in trying to be kind," it said. "Your manuscript is utterly hopeless as a candidate for our list. I never thought the subject worth a damn to begin with and I don't think it's worth a damn now. Lay off, MacDuff." Now, that's a rejection letter. David Oshinsky holds the Jack S. Blanton chair in history at the University of Texas at Austin. His most recent book, "Polio: An American Story," won the 2006 Pulitzer Prize for history. ___________________________________________________________ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html -------------- next part -------------- No Thanks, Mr. Nabokov By DAVID OSHINSKY In the summer of 1950, Alfred A. Knopf Inc. turned down the English-language rights to a Dutch manuscript after receiving a particularly harsh reader's report. The work was "very dull," the reader insisted, "a dreary record of typical family bickering, petty annoyances and adolescent emotions." Sales would be small because the main characters were neither familiar to Americans nor especially appealing. "Even if the work had come to light five years ago, when the subject was timely," the reader wrote, "I don't see that there would have been a chance for it." Knopf wasn't alone. "The Diary of a Young Girl," by Anne Frank, would be rejected by 15 others before Doubleday published it in 1952. More than 30 million copies are currently in print, making it one of the best-selling books in history. The Anne Frank reader's report is part of the massive Knopf archive housed in the Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center at the University of Texas . The document is one of thousands tucked away in the publisher's rejection files, a place where whopping editorial blunders are mercifully entombed. Nothing embarrasses a publisher more than the public knowledge that a literary classic or a mega best seller has somehow slipped away. One of them turned down Pearl Buck's novel "The Good Earth" on the grounds that Americans were "not interested in anything on China." Another passed on George Orwell's "Animal Farm," explaining it was "impossible to sell animal stories in the U.S.A." (It's not only publishers: Tony Hillerman was dumped by an agent who urged him to "get rid of all that Indian stuff.") For almost a century, Knopf has been the gold standard in the book trade, publishing the works of 17 Nobel Prize-winning authors as well as 47 Pulitzer Prize-winning volumes of fiction, nonfiction, biography and history. Recently, however, scholars trolling through the Knopf archive have been struck by the number of reader's reports that badly missed the mark, especially where new talent was concerned. The rejection files, which run from the 1940s through the 1970s, include dismissive verdicts on the likes of Jorge Luis Borges ("utterly untranslatable"), Isaac Bashevis Singer ("It's Poland and the rich Jews again"), Anaïs Nin ("There is no commercial advantage in acquiring her, and, in my opinion, no artistic"), Sylvia Plath ("There certainly isn't enough genuine talent for us to take notice") and Jack Kerouac("His frenetic and scrambling prose perfectly express the feverish travels of the Beat Generation. But is that enough? I don't think so"). In a two-year stretch beginning in 1955, Knopf turned down manuscripts by Jean-Paul Sartre, Mordecai Richler, and the historians A. J. P. Taylor and Barbara Tuchman, not to mention Vladimir Nabokov's "Lolita" (too racy) and James Baldwin's "Giovanni's Room" ("hopelessly bad"). As a historian, I was most interested in the files of my professional colleagues. I went through them, I must admit, anticipating a pile of windy pronouncements and delicious mistakes. Reader's reports can be wildly subjective, reflecting the quirks and biases of the reviewer, and the history rejection files are hardly immune. In the 1940s and '50s, Knopf sent a fair number of American history manuscripts to a notorious curmudgeon whose scathing critiques could peel bark from a tree. In one reader's report, we see him demolish a well-known historian, calling her research "shockingly inadequate" and her writing "fairly drab." In another, he works over a promising scholar, describing the prose as "a bit better than Ph.D. English" and claiming that "the mountain of his research has produced a mouse of a thesis." The carnage complete, the reader adds a cautiously protective postscript: "Of course my name must not be mentioned." Professor X "and I are acquaintances and I like him very much as a person." (Both manuscripts would be published elsewhere to glowing reviews.) Actually, darts like these turned up less frequently than I expected. Even in the rejection files, where negativity reigned, the great bulk of the reader's reports seemed fair-minded and persuasive. Put simply, a rejected manuscript usually appeared to deserve its fate. The final arbiters were Alfred A. Knopf, his wife Blanche Knopf (who took over as company president in 1957) and their editor in chief, Harold Strauss. After a manuscript was judged to be wrong for the list ? a process that included input from numerous people ? a rejection letter would follow, often written by the publisher himself. Sometimes the problem was financial. Alfred Knopf personally turned down R. R. Palmer's classic, "The Age of the Democratic Revolution," telling the Princeton historian that his book would never earn back the $7,750 in "total production costs" the project would require ? a big mistake, it turned out. He rejected a biography of Sir Robert Walpole by the distinguished British historian J. H. Plumb, claiming that the manuscript, while "a good piece of history," would be lucky to sell 750 copies in the United States. And he declined a manuscript by William Appleman Williams, the father of New Left diplomatic history, writing to him that "fundamentally your book would be an editorial in hard covers, and it is difficult almost to the point of impossible to persuade readers to pay money for the privilege of reading" such works. Going through these letters, one is struck by the more upbeat tone employed with younger scholars. Though the Knopfs and Strauss had little use for a revised doctoral dissertation ? that, they believed, was the reason God created university presses ? they understood that cultivating fresh talent was a process in which doors must remain open, and that the next manuscript might well be the charm. A typical rejection letter to a newly minted historian would conclude with Alfred Knopf's prediction that "one of these days we will have something from you that we can publish with gusto." What most disturbed the Knopfs and Strauss were auspicious projects by accomplished scholars that failed to measure up. Upon receiving a long-anticipated manuscript in 1952 from John Hope Franklin, whose earlier book, "From Slavery to Freedom," had sold well for Knopf, Strauss responded: "I am terribly sorry to have to tell you that, while we recognize the scholarly merits of the manuscript, we are deeply disappointed in its trade possibilities. We feel that you have completely missed your chance to write a colorful and dramatic book." In 1958, Alfred Knopf sent this pointed note to T. Harry Williams, a professor of Southern history, who also had published a successful book with the company a few years before: "Dear Harry ? I am terribly sorry because I would love to have a really good manuscript from you, but 'Americans at War' isn't it." (Williams wasn't amused. "Enclosed is a check for $1," he replied, "which is sufficient for return postage first class. I would appreciate getting the manuscript back immediately.") Such was Knopf's reputation, however, that authors kept lining up for more. Indeed, in the years between 1940 and 1980, it would have been possible to staff a distinguished history department using scholars who published important books at Knopf after having at least one of their previous works rejected there ? a roster that includes Williams, whose "Huey Long" won the Pulitzer Prize for biography in 1970; Tuchman, whose biggest sellers for Knopf included "A Distant Mirror" and "The March of Folly"; Kenneth Stampp, whose 1956 book "The Peculiar Institution" revolutionized the study of American slavery; and Michael Kammen, whose "People of Paradox" was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for history in 1973. Today, as publishers eschew the finished manuscript and spit out contracts based on a sketchy outline or even less, the scripting of rejection letters has become something of a lost art. It's hard to imagine a current publisher dictating the sort of response that Alfred Knopf sent to a prominent Columbia University historian in the 1950s. "This time there's no point in trying to be kind," it said. "Your manuscript is utterly hopeless as a candidate for our list. I never thought the subject worth a damn to begin with and I don't think it's worth a damn now. Lay off, MacDuff." Now, that's a rejection letter. David Oshinsky holds the Jack S. Blanton chair in history at the University of Texas at Austin. His most recent book, "Polio: An American Story," won the 2006 Pulitzer Prize for history. From swadhin_sen at yahoo.com Thu Sep 13 00:04:21 2007 From: swadhin_sen at yahoo.com (Swadhin Sen) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai Message-ID: <661039.76221.qm@web52208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Madhumita Although your mail addressed both me and Naeem, my personal sketchy remarks on your questions are as follows: BUT, the question is: To what extent do you feel that it is a valid move to (claim to) work in/on/about 'Bangla,' given that the project will tilt towards Indian films? Does the claiming of a linguistic category end up erasing important geopolitical and historical differences -- or does it work usefully against the seemingly pervasive insistence on state-based distinctions, which are only 60 years old in our context? - I do not endorse the position which assumes that ‘linguistic categories’ could be conceptually separated from ‘geopolitical and historical’ differences. I am skeptical about success of your intention to ‘work in linguistic unit’ (and not primarily geopolitical ones). I think the ‘linguistic units’ are enmeshed into ‘geopolitical ones’. It does not matter whether our state based distinctions are 60 years old or not. Because, even before the partition, there were variations in the languages of West and the East (Now Bangladesh). I want to view language as a representative system in which question of power and authority are crucial for cultural and political transactions and translation. The variations of dialects of Bangladesh are stereotyped, homogenized and distorted in mainstream films and electronic media of West Bengal. Bhanu Bandopadhaya was pioneer in the sarcastic and comical representation of the dialect of East Bengal or East Pakisthan or present Bangladesh. The continuation of the same practice is common in Taliwood films and Soaps & variety shows in E-media of Kolkata. - The question of whether a linguistic category end up erasing… differences’ is not very interesting for me. Rather I am interested to question the conditions that destroy older categories and construct newer ones for legitimizing various ways and means of domination and control. Most notably, I think, the parties (or agents) involved with these reconfiguration processes are unequal in their power to borrow, insert and translate. ‘State’ (more precisely modern state) act as a universal condition in these unequal exchanges where ‘we’ (and you) cannot act as autonomous and sovereign subject (as it is usually taken for granted in liberal ideals). - Now if I take India and Bangladesh (or west Bengal and Bangladesh) for example we may find that while we the Banglaeshis are optionless consumers of the film and media representations from Hindi and Bangla (kolkata version) domain, the people from the other part of the boundary are not. The statist conditions controlled by various legal and juridical and as well as ideological apparatuses do not give us (and you) any other options to choose from. You can’t see the mainstream films and visual narratives produced in different mediums of Bangladesh. Your vision and horizons of arguments, thus, are subjected by inequality where we are active only in the selection from those which we are permitted to do. - I contend that your question regarding the validity of working on/about Bangla films should be rethought from the above problematization. - The inequality is also applicable within a state also. For example, in Bangladesh the ethnic nations (not tribes, or ethnic minorities) are subjected to the same statist and nationalistic processes of reconfigurations. They are bound to speak Bangla, but we are not bound to speak Chakma, Shaotali, Rakhain and many other languages. - From a predominantly liberal terrain, we may optimistically believe in and call for the erasure of differences. But the complexly articulated state (and multicorporate) apparatus (from education sector to Job Market, from agricultural products to coca-cola) constructs newer differences and boundaries. Under these circumstances, I am not very much interested in some sort of liberal proclamation of erasing differences among languages, cultures and states. I am more hopeful about the critique of the formation differences. Interestingly, the affairs with Tasleema Nasreen can also be viewed in the framework of the inequality. I think Naeem’s points on Taslema were not taken into proper theoretical and political account by the members who responded with a predominant liberal world view of everything. I will try to address the issues in another mail. And what is one to do with the reality that South Asian language boundaries,somewhat like South Asian regional boundaries, are constantly shifting and responding to political imperatives, as well? (The Hindi/Urdu wallahs certainly know this one well!) - I hope to touch upon this part of question in future. To comment briefly, the boundaries are being reconfigured and redefined (as I have argued above) off course. Unfortunately and apologetically I am not in a position to profess on what one should do about it! I hope this response will stir more arguments, Wishes Swadhin Swadhin Sen Archaeologist & Assistant Professor Department of Archaeology Jahangirnagar University Savar, Dhaka Bangladesh Ph. 88 01720196176 (mobile) ----- Original Message ---- From: Madhumita Lahiri To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:58:58 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai Hi Swadhinji and Naeemji, I use the Hindi honorific because using no honorific at all feels unseemly. I wanted to interface a rather stupefying question i got yesterday -- from a smart young Indian-origin student at a prestigious US university: "Is there a difference between Bengal and Bangladesh?" I answered yes (there is a geopolitical difference), then no (the cultures are not entirely separate), and then yes (but there are significant historical differences) and then just, what? Because the question, while seemingly simple, is a rather difficult one to tackle. I work on South Asian expressive culture -- particularly, the interface between popular film and what is thought of as 'high' literature -- and i work in Hindi, Bengali, and English. While my project is Indo-centric -- because of a focus on the transnational reception of the Kolkata- and Bombay-based film industries -- as a student of language and literature i want to work in linguistic units, not primarily in geopolitical ones. BUT, the question is: To what extent do you feel that it is a valid move to (claim to) work in/on/about 'Bangla,' given that the project will tilt towards Indian films? Does the claiming of a linguistic category end up erasing important geopolitical and historical differences -- or does it work usefully against the seemingly pervasive insistence on state-based distinctions, which are only 60 years old in our context? And what is one to do with the reality that South Asian language boundaries, somewhat like South Asian regional boundaries, are constantly shifting and responding to political imperatives, as well? (The Hindi/Urdu wallahs certainly know this one well!) Best wishes, and hopeful for a response, Madhumita On 9/9/07, Swadhin Sen wrote: > > Dear all > > The ubiquitous silence of the sarai subscribers about Naeem's mail is > noteworthy. > > 'Freedom of speech' is always entwined with the power relations. We may > send mails after mails to sarai. Yet, it doesn't mean that we will be heard. > In liberal version, the act of writing and act of speaking assumes the > action of other parties in taken for granted terms. The weak and > marginalized may be permitted to speak and write; but this agency doesn't > inhere the act of listening and consequent corrective measures. > > How will 'we', the non-Indians, interpret this action (in term of > refraining from acting and/or participating in the debate)? > > Thanking all, > > Swadhin > > Swadhin Sen > Archaeologist > & > Assistant Professor > Department of Archaeology > Jahangirnagar University > Savar, Dhaka > Bangladesh > Ph. 88 01720196176 (mobile) > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: S.Fatima < sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in> > To: Naeem Mohaiemen ; reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2007 3:37:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai > > No, no... we won't talk about Bangladesh and Pakistan. > Aren't those regions part of the Akhand Bharat. I hope > you know what akhand means. You better start learning > Hindi or else you would be branded anti-national. You > are a security threat to our Rashtra. You are a > Bangladeshi. > > (Sorry Naeem - that wasn't real me. I think being on > the Sarai list I am slowly turning into a Patriotic > Indian, which practically means being a Gaurav shali > Bharatiye and no longer respecting other cultures and > languages). > > By the way, they were exchanging Urdu couplets, not > Hindi. Since when has Urdu become Indian? > > > > --- Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > > There are many members of Sarai who are neither > > Indian, nor > > Hindi-speakers. But Indian members of Sarai seem so > > oblivious to > > their Indo-centrism that they presume that we will > > be able to, or want > > to, follow debates that are at this point even > > written entirely in > > Hindi (I refer to recent posts where entire couplets > > are posted in > > Hindi w. no translation). > > > > This comes at the cost of many other debates that > > could possibly > > happen. I've witnessed items posted regarding > > Bangladesh sinking > > without a trace/response. Recently, particular > > "Indian" topics have > > generated hundreds of replies, drowning out all > > else. The only time a > > Bangladeshi cultural producer (Taslima Nasreen) gets > > debated is when > > what is at stake is how she was treated in India. > > Only when Taslima > > is a vehicle to debate Hyderabad values, Indian > > secularism, etc does > > she become a person of interest. > > > > Bangladesh/Pakistan/or elsewhere in South Asia does > > enter into other > > discussions-- as a foil. To insert immigration into > > the debate, and > > of course the ultimate insult that can be flung at > > Suddha is that "he > > is no longer in Bangladesh". > > > > This weekend, I was talking to Manosh Chowdhury, who > > has just returned > > from Japan to Dhaka. Unprovoked he started talking > > about how "we" is > > used unquestioningly on Sarai to mean "Indian". > > Even "South Asian" > > means "Indian", or at least everything non-Indian is > > through the prism > > of the "center". > > > > But it's a bore to be the resident scold, or a > > token. I fear > > eventually most who feel suffocated by the recent > > endless debate (a > > debate which is often between a few individuals, > > sometimes even > > one-to-one, and yet it gets sent to the entire list) > > will have > > Manosh's reaction. They will drift away, exhausted. > > > > As Jeebesh pointed out, it takes very little time to > > destroy a > > cyber-community that has been built up painstakingly > > by Sarai over the > > years. Tyranny of the few threatens to do just > > that. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click > away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all > the tools to get online. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 13 00:09:08 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <117787.21538.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about "freedoms". No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer. The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer. Kshmendra Kaul PS: Dear Naeem It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting to make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from you, I will understand. KK Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: The question was asked repeatedly on Sarai list recently, "are there films whose screenings you would stop"? Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn? Read on.... Already Under Fire, a Producer Is Going Further By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT Published: June 25, 2007 ...Having already provoked parents, women's groups and the ratings board with explicit ads for the coming torture movie ''Captivity,'' Mr. Solomon and his After Dark Films now intend to introduce the film, set for release July 13, with a party that may set a new standard for the politically incorrect. ...But the warren of live torture rooms is a must. As Mr. Solomon envisions it, individuals in torture gear will wander through the West Hollywood club Privilege grabbing partygoers. All of which is a prelude to an undisclosed main event that, he warned last week over slices of pizza a few doors from his company's new offices on the Sunset Strip, is ''probably not legal.'' "'The women's groups definitely will love it,'' Mr. Solomon hinted. ''I call it my personal little tribute to them.'' Mr. Solomon, a fast-talking 35-year-old, and his genre-film company were barely noticed until outrage at the ''Captivity'' billboards -- which chronicled a young woman's torment, with frames titled ''Abduction,'' ''Confinement,'' ''Torture,'' ''Termination'' -- led to a rare censure by the Motion Picture Association of America this spring. When the association's ratings board suspended its process for a month as a punitive measure, ''Captivity'' missed its May release date and was bumped to June 22. But Bob Weinstein and his Dimension Films wanted that date for their competing horror film ''1408,'' and he persuaded Mr. Solomon to swap for Friday, July 13. Mr. Solomon quickly called that Friday ''Captivity Day.'' ...These added explicit torture , including a so-called ''milkshake'' scene that involves body parts and a blender, to a picture that was largely psychological in its thrust when After Dark acquired the rights to it. Government to Take a Hard Look at Horror By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT Published: March 24, 2007 ...Earlier this week, After Dark and Lionsgate scrambled to contain the public-relations damage after a Los Angeles Times columnist quoted several young students objecting to an especially gruesome billboard for ''Captivity'' near their middle school. After Dark, which is expected to release the film on May 18 with Lionsgate, quickly agreed to pull part of its ad campaign. ....Horror aficionados date the genre's current flourishing to October 2004. The first of Lionsgate's ''Saw'' movies, about a demonically inventive serial killer, opened to a surprisingly strong $18 million on its first weekend, though it lacked an expensive cast or a pedigreed filmmaker. Sequels, imitators and close cousins soon followed. ...Fox Atomic, a division formed by Fox Searchlight to cultivate the late-teenage and early-adult audience, on March 6 placed an ad for its film ''The Hills Have Eyes 2'' with an evening showing of ''Dodgeball,'' rated PG-13, on FX. The ad identified ''Hills,'' about National Guard trainees brutally murdered by mutants, as being not yet rated, though film association guidelines call for the disclosure of ratings in ads, and the company had accepted an R rating the day before. John Hegeman, Fox Atomic's chief operating officer, said the R rating was missing because it takes about two days to alter a television spot ....official sites for R-rated fare -- deal with Bloody-disgusting.com, Arrow in the Head (joblo.com/arrow), Fangoria.com, or any of another dozen such Web sites. (Bloody-disgusting, for example, includes chat forums that address such questions as: ''Can anyone suggest a good torture-esk movie?'')...The operators of several such sites said they had no way of knowing how many of their visitors were under 17, but believed the numbers were substantial. ''The horror site skews a little more toward the younger ones,'' said Berge Garabedian, founder of the Joblo.com film site and its associated Arrow in the Head horror section, which this week carried a banner ad for an unrated DVD of ''Sublime,'' about gruesome murder in a hospital, from Warner Home Video. Mr. Garabedian said he tried to block visitors under 15 from discussion boards in order to eliminate ''a lot of MySpace craziness,'' but thought a considerable share of his Arrow in the Head visitors to be in the 13-to-18-year-old age range. ....Experian Simmons Research found that 12 percent of respondents between the ages of 12 and 17 reported watching ''Saw II'' in theaters, while 12 percent said they had seen the film on DVD, and 26 percent reported viewing any horror in theaters. In its 2004 report, the Federal Trade Commission said that in 36 percent of their attempts, its underage ''mystery shoppers'' were able to buy a movie ticket without an age check in theaters, down somewhat from about half in 2000. Meanwhile 81 percent of the young buyers obtained R-rated DVDs without a check. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. From sen.gargi at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 00:45:07 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:45:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer In-Reply-To: <117787.21538.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <117787.21538.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear K. of AR2KP+VD, Good to see you back in original form. I was wondering whether laughter had made the leopard shed its spots. Happy to know such calamities have not befallen you. So welcome back to the list in your true role as destroyer of pseudo-secular, intellectual community's faith in La La Land. You must not disappear or get distracted into intellectual debates about Iqbal and Faiz and other poseurs. Your job has been defined centuries ago: yada yada hi dharmasya, glanirbhavati bharata, abhyuthanam adharmsya, tadatmanam srijamyaham (Each time dharma is under threat in Bharata (the land) , I shall reappear every time to destroy that adharma) [For those in the list unfamiliar with the Indian epic Mahabharata in which nestles a chapter called Gita - this sloka is from Gita and can be described as Krishna's (the God's) calling card or signature tune.] So dear K. remain steadfast to your true calling. Do not waver. Do not weaken. Do not give into intellectual jugglery with intellectuals juggling with intellect. Over come desire to wander off into intellectual la la land. Don't give into temptations. Abstain from desires. And connect to your power, your truly powerful power of vengeance. And live to Destroy. Gargi PS: just so that you don't get confused dear and allow that confusion to distract you from your calling, Naeem is not really asking a question. Not a real question anyhow. He is stating a position, by asking a question. This form of intellectual jugglery though has not been discovered by intellectuals of la la land inhabiting this list, but can be traced back to one tenet of Hinduism itself. I forget which one exactly - ask the toilet cleaner. On 13/09/2007, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > "freedoms". > > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual > community" thought the question deserved an answer. > > The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to > answer. > > Kshmendra Kaul > > PS: > Dear Naeem > > It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting to > make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from you, > I will understand. > > KK > > > > > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > The question was asked repeatedly on Sarai list recently, "are there > films whose screenings you would stop"? > > Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn? Read > on.... > > > Already Under Fire, a Producer Is Going Further > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > Published: June 25, 2007 > > ...Having already provoked parents, women's groups and the ratings > board with explicit ads for the coming torture movie ''Captivity,'' > Mr. Solomon and his After Dark Films now intend to introduce the film, > set for release July 13, with a party that may set a new standard for > the politically incorrect. > > ...But the warren of live torture rooms is a must. As Mr. Solomon > envisions it, individuals in torture gear will wander through the West > Hollywood club Privilege grabbing partygoers. All of which is a > prelude to an undisclosed main event that, he warned last week over > slices of pizza a few doors from his company's new offices on the > Sunset Strip, is ''probably not legal.'' "'The women's groups > definitely will love it,'' Mr. Solomon hinted. ''I call it my personal > little tribute to them.'' > > Mr. Solomon, a fast-talking 35-year-old, and his genre-film company > were barely noticed until outrage at the ''Captivity'' billboards -- > which chronicled a young woman's torment, with frames titled > ''Abduction,'' ''Confinement,'' ''Torture,'' ''Termination'' -- led to > a rare censure by the Motion Picture Association of America this > spring. > > When the association's ratings board suspended its process for a month > as a punitive measure, ''Captivity'' missed its May release date and > was bumped to June 22. But Bob Weinstein and his Dimension Films > wanted that date for their competing horror film ''1408,'' and he > persuaded Mr. Solomon to swap for Friday, July 13. Mr. Solomon quickly > called that Friday ''Captivity Day.'' > > ...These added explicit torture , including a so-called ''milkshake'' > scene that involves body parts and a blender, to a picture that was > largely psychological in its thrust when After Dark acquired the > rights to it. > > Government to Take a Hard Look at Horror > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > Published: March 24, 2007 > > > ...Earlier this week, After Dark and Lionsgate scrambled to contain > the public-relations damage after a Los Angeles Times columnist quoted > several young students objecting to an especially gruesome billboard > for ''Captivity'' near their middle school. After Dark, which is > expected to release the film on May 18 with Lionsgate, quickly agreed > to pull part of its ad campaign. > > ....Horror aficionados date the genre's current flourishing to October > 2004. The first of Lionsgate's ''Saw'' movies, about a demonically > inventive serial killer, opened to a surprisingly strong $18 million > on its first weekend, though it lacked an expensive cast or a > pedigreed filmmaker. Sequels, imitators and close cousins soon > followed. > > ...Fox Atomic, a division formed by Fox Searchlight to cultivate the > late-teenage and early-adult audience, on March 6 placed an ad for its > film ''The Hills Have Eyes 2'' with an evening showing of > ''Dodgeball,'' rated PG-13, on FX. The ad identified ''Hills,'' about > National Guard trainees brutally murdered by mutants, as being not yet > rated, though film association guidelines call for the disclosure of > ratings in ads, and the company had accepted an R rating the day > before. John Hegeman, Fox Atomic's chief operating officer, said the R > rating was missing because it takes about two days to alter a > television spot > > ....official sites for R-rated fare -- deal with > Bloody-disgusting.com, Arrow in the Head (joblo.com/arrow), > Fangoria.com, or any of another dozen such Web sites. > (Bloody-disgusting, for example, includes chat forums that address > such questions as: ''Can anyone suggest a good torture-esk > movie?'')...The operators of several such sites said they had no way > of knowing how many of their visitors were under 17, but believed the > numbers were substantial. ''The horror site skews a little more toward > the younger ones,'' said Berge Garabedian, founder of the Joblo.com > film site and its associated Arrow in the Head horror section, which > this week carried a banner ad for an unrated DVD of ''Sublime,'' about > gruesome murder in a hospital, from Warner Home Video. Mr. Garabedian > said he tried to block visitors under 15 from discussion boards in > order to eliminate ''a lot of MySpace craziness,'' but thought a > considerable share of his Arrow in the Head visitors to be in the > 13-to-18-year-old age range. > > ....Experian Simmons Research found that 12 percent of respondents > between the ages of 12 and 17 reported watching ''Saw II'' in > theaters, while 12 percent said they had seen the film on DVD, and 26 > percent reported viewing any horror in theaters. In its 2004 report, > the Federal Trade Commission said that in 36 percent of their > attempts, its underage ''mystery shoppers'' were able to buy a movie > ticket without an age check in theaters, down somewhat from about half > in 2000. Meanwhile 81 percent of the young buyers obtained R-rated > DVDs without a check. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! > FareChase. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Sep 13 00:50:56 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:50:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer In-Reply-To: <117787.21538.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <117787.21538.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E83C18.4050108@sarai.net> Dear Kshemendra, You said, "Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about "freedoms". No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer.The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer." As a matter of fact, I did. Though in doing so, I did not think I was displaying anything by way of 'moral courage'. I thought I was simply haveing an exchange about the circumstances in which I would countenance or endorse, or at least not object to censorship. I answered Naeem off list. I wrote to him, personally, On the same day, in less than four hours after Naeem had posted his query. I enclose below (at the end of this post) the relevant excerpt from what I wrote to him. (I hope Naeem will not object, and I apologize to Naeem, and to the list for posting a private off-list conversation on the list, although it wa provoked by an on-list query,for reasons of clarification, and tangentially, to defend the honour, if you like, of 'La La Land'.) I did not think it necessary then to post this to the list because it consists in the main, of a quotation from something that I had already posted on the list, and that too recently, with some elaboration. I thought it would be a tad repetitive. But anyway, since it makes my position on censorship very clear,I am happy to include it, at the risk of repetitiveness. Once again, Kshemendra, watch it. Don't be so hasty in the making of assumptions about what other people might have done, or not have done. Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions makes you (more than occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish. Take Care, don't stumble, don't rush, the surfaces you fall on are very hard. 'La La Land' is not a gentle sort of place. Shuddha My reply to Naeem (with the time and date stamp) is below. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: urgent Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:55:51 +0530 From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Organization: Sarai To: Naeem Mohaiemen References: Dear Naeem, ... I did write about what I would censor, some time back, in the post titled 'The Attack on Taslima Nasrin in Hyderabad I' posted on the 18th of August, and maybe it is pertinent to what you wrote and this is - "Similarly, if someone were to post photographic representations of children or animals in a pornographic form on any web forum or any other platform, I would call for its censorship, not because it is pornographic but because its implies sexual actions with implicitly unverifiable consent. Here, i would maintain that a drawn or written (as opposed to photographic) representation would not qualify in my view for censorship, though I would strongly criticse such a representation. Similarly, I would personally call for the censorship of the snuff videos of acts of beheading that jihadist groups in Iraq and elsewhere in the world are so fond of displaying on internet forums, or the photographic representations of hangings and public executions that the fascist and totalitarian regimes in Iran and China sometimes put out Not because I have a problem with the representation of violence per se, but because in these cases the act of representation itself is a violation of the liberty of those who are being killed. No one has asked them (the executed) for their consent to have their beheading or hanging put on public display. In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I would be willing to endorse the censorship of." My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people from watching them. If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above. Please post this argument if you find it necessary, I am a bit tired of posting on the list by now. thanks Shuddha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about "freedoms". > > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer. > > The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer. > > Kshmendra Kaul > > PS: > Dear Naeem > > It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting to make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from you, I will understand. > > KK > > > > > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > The question was asked repeatedly on Sarai list recently, "are there > films whose screenings you would stop"? > > Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn? Read on.... > > > Already Under Fire, a Producer Is Going Further > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > Published: June 25, 2007 > > ...Having already provoked parents, women's groups and the ratings > board with explicit ads for the coming torture movie ''Captivity,'' > Mr. Solomon and his After Dark Films now intend to introduce the film, > set for release July 13, with a party that may set a new standard for > the politically incorrect. > > ...But the warren of live torture rooms is a must. As Mr. Solomon > envisions it, individuals in torture gear will wander through the West > Hollywood club Privilege grabbing partygoers. All of which is a > prelude to an undisclosed main event that, he warned last week over > slices of pizza a few doors from his company's new offices on the > Sunset Strip, is ''probably not legal.'' "'The women's groups > definitely will love it,'' Mr. Solomon hinted. ''I call it my personal > little tribute to them.'' > > Mr. Solomon, a fast-talking 35-year-old, and his genre-film company > were barely noticed until outrage at the ''Captivity'' billboards -- > which chronicled a young woman's torment, with frames titled > ''Abduction,'' ''Confinement,'' ''Torture,'' ''Termination'' -- led to > a rare censure by the Motion Picture Association of America this > spring. > > When the association's ratings board suspended its process for a month > as a punitive measure, ''Captivity'' missed its May release date and > was bumped to June 22. But Bob Weinstein and his Dimension Films > wanted that date for their competing horror film ''1408,'' and he > persuaded Mr. Solomon to swap for Friday, July 13. Mr. Solomon quickly > called that Friday ''Captivity Day.'' > > ...These added explicit torture , including a so-called ''milkshake'' > scene that involves body parts and a blender, to a picture that was > largely psychological in its thrust when After Dark acquired the > rights to it. > > Government to Take a Hard Look at Horror > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > Published: March 24, 2007 > > > ...Earlier this week, After Dark and Lionsgate scrambled to contain > the public-relations damage after a Los Angeles Times columnist quoted > several young students objecting to an especially gruesome billboard > for ''Captivity'' near their middle school. After Dark, which is > expected to release the film on May 18 with Lionsgate, quickly agreed > to pull part of its ad campaign. > > ....Horror aficionados date the genre's current flourishing to October > 2004. The first of Lionsgate's ''Saw'' movies, about a demonically > inventive serial killer, opened to a surprisingly strong $18 million > on its first weekend, though it lacked an expensive cast or a > pedigreed filmmaker. Sequels, imitators and close cousins soon > followed. > > ...Fox Atomic, a division formed by Fox Searchlight to cultivate the > late-teenage and early-adult audience, on March 6 placed an ad for its > film ''The Hills Have Eyes 2'' with an evening showing of > ''Dodgeball,'' rated PG-13, on FX. The ad identified ''Hills,'' about > National Guard trainees brutally murdered by mutants, as being not yet > rated, though film association guidelines call for the disclosure of > ratings in ads, and the company had accepted an R rating the day > before. John Hegeman, Fox Atomic's chief operating officer, said the R > rating was missing because it takes about two days to alter a > television spot > > ....official sites for R-rated fare -- deal with > Bloody-disgusting.com, Arrow in the Head (joblo.com/arrow), > Fangoria.com, or any of another dozen such Web sites. > (Bloody-disgusting, for example, includes chat forums that address > such questions as: ''Can anyone suggest a good torture-esk > movie?'')...The operators of several such sites said they had no way > of knowing how many of their visitors were under 17, but believed the > numbers were substantial. ''The horror site skews a little more toward > the younger ones,'' said Berge Garabedian, founder of the Joblo.com > film site and its associated Arrow in the Head horror section, which > this week carried a banner ad for an unrated DVD of ''Sublime,'' about > gruesome murder in a hospital, from Warner Home Video. Mr. Garabedian > said he tried to block visitors under 15 from discussion boards in > order to eliminate ''a lot of MySpace craziness,'' but thought a > considerable share of his Arrow in the Head visitors to be in the > 13-to-18-year-old age range. > > ....Experian Simmons Research found that 12 percent of respondents > between the ages of 12 and 17 reported watching ''Saw II'' in > theaters, while 12 percent said they had seen the film on DVD, and 26 > percent reported viewing any horror in theaters. In its 2004 report, > the Federal Trade Commission said that in 36 percent of their > attempts, its underage ''mystery shoppers'' were able to buy a movie > ticket without an age check in theaters, down somewhat from about half > in 2000. Meanwhile 81 percent of the young buyers obtained R-rated > DVDs without a check. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Sep 13 01:08:11 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 01:08:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer In-Reply-To: References: <117787.21538.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E84023.1030404@sarai.net> Dear Gargi, [The toilet cleaner consults his implements] I think the device you are referring to, Gargi, (if I understand you correctly) is called 'Purva Paksha' in Sanskrit Rhetoric. 'Purva Paksha' (litrally the 'prior argument')basically implies an introductory exposition of the argument opposed to your own, for the sole purpose of demolishing it with the aid of critical reasoning, and in order to stage the supremacy of your own argument. You present the opposing argument, in order to demonstrate your reasons for forsaking it. You have to be a very skilled dialectician to undertake the difficult exercise of 'Purva Paksha' because the argument you oppose has to be presented with consummate skill, only then can your own dismantling of that argument that you have yourself presented be considered a matter worthy of respect. Hope this helps, The toilet cleaner. From ml49 at duke.edu Thu Sep 13 01:26:40 2007 From: ml49 at duke.edu (Madhumita Lahiri) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:56:40 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai In-Reply-To: <661039.76221.qm@web52208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <661039.76221.qm@web52208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <21d61a110709121256g3a19f37i2575862afa623afd@mail.gmail.com> Dear Swadhin, I am not making a liberal proclamation. Perhaps the tone on this listserv could be a bit more amicable and less antagonistic; it would certainly make me more comfortable engaging in it! Thank you for answering my question -- as to whether starting with a linguistic unit of reference ('Bangla') works in harmful ways to erase important differences (of history, state formations, etc) -- and your answer seems to be an unambiguous yes (that such a move is harmful). Please notice, however, when i speak of 'erasing differences' i do not assume that to be a good thing or a bad thing -- and it does hurt my feelings to have liberalism and the 'erasure of differences' attributed to me! That's not my project, my sentiments, or contained in anything I wrote. We all choose starting points for our work -- some are more productive and some are more problematic. The tendency to focus always on the state is something which i think has its own limitations; when i posted to the list about Bangla, i was asking, what are the effects of taking a linguistic unit as a starting point of inquiry, instead of always starting with a state-based delineation? Which is not (and never -- hence my thoughts on the complexity of South Asian language categories) to say that language can be separated from geopolitical realities -- but that one has to choose somewhere to start. Keeping Indocentricism and geopolitics in mind, how does a cultural project work against them, where does one begin? The Bangla material has allowed me to think about nation-formations (always an imaginary identification and conception, as you point out) that are not exactly coextensive with the state -- both in terms of Bengali identity within India, which engages with governmentality at a non-national level, and in terms of any/all cultural imaginings of something like a single 'Bongodesh' (I realize it looks funny in Roman script), which tend to work around or beyond nation-state boundaries. My hope is not to fall on one side or another on the question of WestBengal/Bangladesh distinctions, but to chew on those differences for what they reveal -- about cultural imaginaries, nations, states, and those of us who work on them. As to whether such non-partiality is possible, i guess i'll find out when i finish.... As for the availability of materials, which is always conditioned by circumstances well beyond one's control, that is a problem i am getting to know quite well! Suggestions are always welcome as to how to deal with the question. Yours, Madhumita On 9/12/07, Swadhin Sen wrote: > > Dear Madhumita > > > > Although your mail addressed both me and Naeem, my personal sketchy > remarks on your questions are as follows: > > > > > > BUT, the question is: To what extent do you feel that it is a valid move > to (claim to) work in/on/about 'Bangla,' given that the project will tilt > towards Indian films? Does the claiming of a linguistic category end up > erasing important geopolitical and historical differences -- or does it > work usefully against the seemingly pervasive insistence on state-based distinctions, > which are only 60 years old in our context? > > - I do not endorse the position which assumes that 'linguistic > categories' could be conceptually separated from 'geopolitical and > historical' differences. I am skeptical about success of your intention to > 'work in linguistic unit' (and not primarily geopolitical ones). I think the > 'linguistic units' are enmeshed into 'geopolitical ones'. It does not matter > whether our state based distinctions are 60 years old or not. Because, even > before the partition, there were variations in the languages of West and the > East (Now Bangladesh). I want to view language as a representative system in > which question of power and authority are crucial for cultural and political > transactions and translation. The variations of dialects of Bangladesh are > stereotyped, homogenized and distorted in mainstream films and electronic > media of West Bengal. Bhanu Bandopadhaya was pioneer in the sarcastic and > comical representation of the dialect of East Bengal or East Pakisthan or > present Bangladesh. The continuation of the same practice is common in > Taliwood films and Soaps & variety shows in E-media of Kolkata. > > - The question of whether a linguistic category end up erasing… > differences' is not very interesting for me. Rather I am interested to > question the conditions that destroy older categories and construct newer > ones for legitimizing various ways and means of domination and control. Most > notably, I think, the parties (or agents) involved with these > reconfiguration processes are unequal in their power to borrow, insert and > translate. 'State' (more precisely modern state) act as a universal > condition in these unequal exchanges where 'we' (and you) cannot act as > autonomous and sovereign subject (as it is usually taken for granted in > liberal ideals). > > - Now if I take India and Bangladesh (or west Bengal and > Bangladesh) for example we may find that while we the Banglaeshis are > optionless consumers of the film and media representations from Hindi and > Bangla (kolkata version) domain, the people from the other part of the > boundary are not. The statist conditions controlled by various legal and > juridical and as well as ideological apparatuses do not give us (and you) > any other options to choose from. You can't see the mainstream films and > visual narratives produced in different mediums of Bangladesh. Your vision > and horizons of arguments, thus, are subjected by inequality where we are > active only in the selection from those which we are permitted to do. > > - I contend that your question regarding the validity of working > on/about Bangla films should be rethought from the above problematization. > > - The inequality is also applicable within a state also. For > example, in Bangladesh the ethnic nations (not tribes, or ethnic minorities) > are subjected to the same statist and nationalistic processes of > reconfigurations. They are bound to speak Bangla, but we are not bound to > speak Chakma, Shaotali, Rakhain and many other languages. > > - From a predominantly liberal terrain, we may optimistically > believe in and call for the erasure of differences. But the complexly > articulated state (and multicorporate) apparatus (from education sector to > Job Market, from agricultural products to coca-cola) constructs newer > differences and boundaries. > > > > Under these circumstances, I am not very much interested in some sort of > liberal proclamation of erasing differences among languages, cultures and > states. I am more hopeful about the critique of the formation differences. > > > > Interestingly, the affairs with Tasleema Nasreen can also be viewed in the > framework of the inequality. I think Naeem's points on Taslema were not > taken into proper theoretical and political account by the members who > responded with a predominant liberal world view of everything. I will try to > address the issues in another mail. > > > And what is one to do with the reality that South Asian language > boundaries,somewhat like South Asian regional boundaries, are constantly > shifting and responding to political imperatives, as well? (The Hindi/Urdu > wallahs certainly know this one well!) > > > > - I hope to touch upon this part of question in future. To comment > briefly, the boundaries are being reconfigured and redefined (as I have > argued above) off course. Unfortunately and apologetically I am not in a > position to profess on what one should do about it! > > > > I hope this response will stir more arguments, > > > > Wishes > > > > Swadhin > > > > > > Swadhin Sen > Archaeologist > & > Assistant Professor > Department of Archaeology > Jahangirnagar University > Savar, Dhaka > Bangladesh > Ph. 88 01720196176 (mobile) > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Madhumita Lahiri > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:58:58 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai > > Hi Swadhinji and Naeemji, > > I use the Hindi honorific because using no honorific at all feels > unseemly. > > I wanted to interface a rather stupefying question i got yesterday -- from > a > smart young Indian-origin student at a prestigious US university: > "Is there a difference between Bengal and Bangladesh?" > I answered yes (there is a geopolitical difference), then no (the cultures > are not entirely separate), and then yes (but there are significant > historical differences) and then just, what? > > Because the question, while seemingly simple, is a rather difficult one to > tackle. > > I work on South Asian expressive culture -- particularly, the interface > between popular film and what is thought of as 'high' literature -- and i > work in Hindi, Bengali, and English. While my project is Indo-centric -- > because of a focus on the transnational reception of the Kolkata- and > Bombay-based film industries -- as a student of language and literature i > want to work in linguistic units, not primarily in geopolitical ones. > > BUT, the question is: To what extent do you feel that it is a valid move > to > (claim to) work in/on/about 'Bangla,' given that the project will tilt > towards Indian films? Does the claiming of a linguistic category end up > erasing important geopolitical and historical differences -- or does it > work > usefully against the seemingly pervasive insistence on state-based > distinctions, which are only 60 years old in our context? > > And what is one to do with the reality that South Asian language > boundaries, > somewhat like South Asian regional boundaries, are constantly shifting and > responding to political imperatives, as well? (The Hindi/Urdu wallahs > certainly know this one well!) > > Best wishes, and hopeful for a response, > Madhumita > > > On 9/9/07, Swadhin Sen wrote: > > > > Dear all > > > > The ubiquitous silence of the sarai subscribers about Naeem's mail is > > noteworthy. > > > > 'Freedom of speech' is always entwined with the power relations. We may > > send mails after mails to sarai. Yet, it doesn't mean that we will be > heard. > > In liberal version, the act of writing and act of speaking assumes the > > action of other parties in taken for granted terms. The weak and > > marginalized may be permitted to speak and write; but this agency > doesn't > > inhere the act of listening and consequent corrective measures. > > > > How will 'we', the non-Indians, interpret this action (in term of > > refraining from acting and/or participating in the debate)? > > > > Thanking all, > > > > Swadhin > > > > Swadhin Sen > > Archaeologist > > & > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Archaeology > > Jahangirnagar University > > Savar, Dhaka > > Bangladesh > > Ph. 88 01720196176 (mobile) > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: S.Fatima < sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in> > > To: Naeem Mohaiemen ; reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2007 3:37:18 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai > > > > No, no... we won't talk about Bangladesh and Pakistan. > > Aren't those regions part of the Akhand Bharat. I hope > > you know what akhand means. You better start learning > > Hindi or else you would be branded anti-national. You > > are a security threat to our Rashtra. You are a > > Bangladeshi. > > > > (Sorry Naeem - that wasn't real me. I think being on > > the Sarai list I am slowly turning into a Patriotic > > Indian, which practically means being a Gaurav shali > > Bharatiye and no longer respecting other cultures and > > languages). > > > > By the way, they were exchanging Urdu couplets, not > > Hindi. Since when has Urdu become Indian? > > > > > > > > --- Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > > > > There are many members of Sarai who are neither > > > Indian, nor > > > Hindi-speakers. But Indian members of Sarai seem so > > > oblivious to > > > their Indo-centrism that they presume that we will > > > be able to, or want > > > to, follow debates that are at this point even > > > written entirely in > > > Hindi (I refer to recent posts where entire couplets > > > are posted in > > > Hindi w. no translation). > > > > > > This comes at the cost of many other debates that > > > could possibly > > > happen. I've witnessed items posted regarding > > > Bangladesh sinking > > > without a trace/response. Recently, particular > > > "Indian" topics have > > > generated hundreds of replies, drowning out all > > > else. The only time a > > > Bangladeshi cultural producer (Taslima Nasreen) gets > > > debated is when > > > what is at stake is how she was treated in India. > > > Only when Taslima > > > is a vehicle to debate Hyderabad values, Indian > > > secularism, etc does > > > she become a person of interest. > > > > > > Bangladesh/Pakistan/or elsewhere in South Asia does > > > enter into other > > > discussions-- as a foil. To insert immigration into > > > the debate, and > > > of course the ultimate insult that can be flung at > > > Suddha is that "he > > > is no longer in Bangladesh". > > > > > > This weekend, I was talking to Manosh Chowdhury, who > > > has just returned > > > from Japan to Dhaka. Unprovoked he started talking > > > about how "we" is > > > used unquestioningly on Sarai to mean "Indian". > > > Even "South Asian" > > > means "Indian", or at least everything non-Indian is > > > through the prism > > > of the "center". > > > > > > But it's a bore to be the resident scold, or a > > > token. I fear > > > eventually most who feel suffocated by the recent > > > endless debate (a > > > debate which is often between a few individuals, > > > sometimes even > > > one-to-one, and yet it gets sent to the entire list) > > > will have > > > Manosh's reaction. They will drift away, exhausted. > > > > > > As Jeebesh pointed out, it takes very little time to > > > destroy a > > > cyber-community that has been built up painstakingly > > > by Sarai over the > > > years. Tyranny of the few threatens to do just > > > that. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > > subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click > > away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you > all > > the tools to get online. > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers > from > someone who knows. > Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > From gora at sarai.net Thu Sep 13 01:33:28 2007 From: gora at sarai.net (Gora Mohanty) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 01:33:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pedagogical Faultlines workshop In-Reply-To: <00d301c7f518$ce63b690$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> References: <370b7f51768cfb16ed0b3da80aa7cdd6@sarai.net> <00d301c7f518$ce63b690$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Message-ID: <1189627408.16622.16.camel@anubis> On Wed, 2007-09-12 at 12:49 +0530, V Ramaswamy wrote: [...] > Let me put my views in a nutshell. If we look at the "education system" in > India, we have a perfect "apartheid" system. Millions upon millions of > children are condemned at birth to a severely bounded life. And that is even > if they make it to school and also complete schooling. [...] This is undoubtedly true. Schooling is bad enough in supposedly fancy urban schools, where we still by and large value rote memorisation even in the experimental sciences. In rural areas, it is heartbreaking to contrast the eagerness of the students with the facilities that greet them. There are few things more worth doing at this moment in India than educational reform. However, the problem is so endemic, requires so many resources, and is so vulnerable to social, economic, and worse yet, political pressures, that one scarcely knows where to start. If people are not aware of it, please look up a project called Ekalavya, and the Hoshangabad Science Teaching Project. In a truly democratic country, this should have been the equivalent of the spur to the US educational system that came from the post-Sputnik reforms. Instead, it fizzled and died. So, by and large, I have preferred doing smaller, achievable things, and have consciously refrained from getting involved in educational reform. In order to start this, I strongly believe that we need a real vision of what is to be achieved, a broad outline of how to achieve it, a cohesive, and capable- enough team, and perhaps most importantly, someone to be the driving force behind it. How to put this together is another question. Regards, Gora From patwardhan_gauri at yahoo.com Thu Sep 13 11:59:12 2007 From: patwardhan_gauri at yahoo.com (gouri) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai In-Reply-To: <21d61a110709121256g3a19f37i2575862afa623afd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3535.33778.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Swadheen and Madhumita, I find this debate interesting but if it has less research jargon, it will be easy to understand arguments and positions. I didn't understand much of Madhumta's post. Regards, Gouri --- Madhumita Lahiri wrote: > Dear Swadhin, > > I am not making a liberal proclamation. Perhaps the > tone on this listserv > could be a bit more amicable and less antagonistic; > it would certainly make > me more comfortable engaging in it! > > Thank you for answering my question -- as to whether > starting with a > linguistic unit of reference ('Bangla') works in > harmful ways to erase > important differences (of history, state formations, > etc) -- and your answer > seems to be an unambiguous yes (that such a move is > harmful). Please notice, > however, when i speak of 'erasing differences' i do > not assume that to be a > good thing or a bad thing -- and it does hurt my > feelings to have liberalism > and the 'erasure of differences' attributed to me! > That's not my project, my > sentiments, or contained in anything I wrote. > > We all choose starting points for our work -- some > are more productive and > some are more problematic. The tendency to focus > always on the state is > something which i think has its own limitations; > when i posted to the list > about Bangla, i was asking, what are the effects of > taking a linguistic unit > as a starting point of inquiry, instead of always > starting with a > state-based delineation? Which is not (and never -- > hence my thoughts on the > complexity of South Asian language categories) to > say that language can be > separated from geopolitical realities -- but that > one has to choose > somewhere to start. Keeping Indocentricism and > geopolitics in mind, how does > a cultural project work against them, where does one > begin? > > The Bangla material has allowed me to think about > nation-formations (always > an imaginary identification and conception, as you > point out) that are not > exactly coextensive with the state -- both in terms > of Bengali identity > within India, which engages with governmentality at > a non-national level, > and in terms of any/all cultural imaginings of > something like a single > 'Bongodesh' (I realize it looks funny in Roman > script), which tend to work > around or beyond nation-state boundaries. My hope is > not to fall on one side > or another on the question of WestBengal/Bangladesh > distinctions, but to > chew on those differences for what they reveal -- > about cultural > imaginaries, nations, states, and those of us who > work on them. As to > whether such non-partiality is possible, i guess > i'll find out when i > finish.... > > As for the availability of materials, which is > always conditioned by > circumstances well beyond one's control, that is a > problem i am getting to > know quite well! Suggestions are always welcome as > to how to deal with the > question. > > Yours, > Madhumita > > On 9/12/07, Swadhin Sen > wrote: > > > > Dear Madhumita > > > > > > > > Although your mail addressed both me and Naeem, my > personal sketchy > > remarks on your questions are as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT, the question is: To what extent do you feel > that it is a valid move > > to (claim to) work in/on/about 'Bangla,' given > that the project will tilt > > towards Indian films? Does the claiming of a > linguistic category end up > > erasing important geopolitical and historical > differences -- or does it > > work usefully against the seemingly pervasive > insistence on state-based distinctions, > > which are only 60 years old in our context? > > > > - I do not endorse the position which > assumes that 'linguistic > > categories' could be conceptually separated from > 'geopolitical and > > historical' differences. I am skeptical about > success of your intention to > > 'work in linguistic unit' (and not primarily > geopolitical ones). I think the > > 'linguistic units' are enmeshed into 'geopolitical > ones'. It does not matter > > whether our state based distinctions are 60 years > old or not. Because, even > > before the partition, there were variations in the > languages of West and the > > East (Now Bangladesh). I want to view language as > a representative system in > > which question of power and authority are crucial > for cultural and political > > transactions and translation. The variations of > dialects of Bangladesh are > > stereotyped, homogenized and distorted in > mainstream films and electronic > > media of West Bengal. Bhanu Bandopadhaya was > pioneer in the sarcastic and > > comical representation of the dialect of East > Bengal or East Pakisthan or > > present Bangladesh. The continuation of the same > practice is common in > > Taliwood films and Soaps & variety shows in > E-media of Kolkata. > > > > - The question of whether a linguistic > category end up erasing… > > differences' is not very interesting for me. > Rather I am interested to > > question the conditions that destroy older > categories and construct newer > > ones for legitimizing various ways and means of > domination and control. Most > > notably, I think, the parties (or agents) involved > with these > > reconfiguration processes are unequal in their > power to borrow, insert and > > translate. 'State' (more precisely modern state) > act as a universal > > condition in these unequal exchanges where 'we' > (and you) cannot act as > > autonomous and sovereign subject (as it is usually > taken for granted in > > liberal ideals). > > > > - Now if I take India and Bangladesh (or > west Bengal and > > Bangladesh) for example we may find that while we > the Banglaeshis are > > optionless consumers of the film and media > representations from Hindi and > > Bangla (kolkata version) domain, the people from > the other part of the > > boundary are not. The statist conditions > controlled by various legal and > > juridical and as well as ideological apparatuses > do not give us (and you) > > any other options to choose from. You can't see > the mainstream films and > > visual narratives produced in different mediums of > Bangladesh. Your vision > > and horizons of arguments, thus, are subjected by > inequality where we are > > active only in the selection from those which we > are permitted to do. > > > > - I contend that your question regarding > the validity of working > > on/about Bangla films should be rethought from the > above problematization. > > > > - The inequality is also applicable within > a state also. For > > example, in Bangladesh the ethnic nations (not > tribes, or ethnic minorities) > > are subjected to the same statist and > nationalistic processes of > > reconfigurations. They are bound to speak Bangla, > but we are not bound to > > speak Chakma, Shaotali, Rakhain and many other > languages. > > > > - From a predominantly liberal terrain, we > may optimistically > > believe in and call for the erasure of > differences. But the complexly > > articulated state (and multicorporate) apparatus > (from education sector to > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/3658 From parthaekka at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 12:50:53 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:50:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer In-Reply-To: <117787.21538.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <117787.21538.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709130020n6af724b8r824cead586a262a8@mail.gmail.com> Actually, the issue is moot. Taken from a personal point of view, if there's a movie (even pornographic or torture or Mel Gibson's epic on Christ) - it's my choice whether or not I want to see it. Even having gone for a viewing, I am free to get up and walk out if I disagree with the topic or the bias. However, acting as a censor is not justifiable as long as it does not intrude on someone's private life and opens out something s/he would like to keep private. That again, as we see in today's 'stings' is a thought open to interpretation. And that's got nothing to do with 'moral courage' - the reason this post is so brief is that I'd rather spend my time and effort in more productive pursuits. Rgds, Partha On 9/13/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > "freedoms". > > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual > community" thought the question deserved an answer. > > The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to > answer. > > Kshmendra Kaul > > PS: > Dear Naeem > > It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting to > make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from you, > I will understand. > > KK > > > > > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > The question was asked repeatedly on Sarai list recently, "are there > films whose screenings you would stop"? > > Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn? Read > on.... > > > Already Under Fire, a Producer Is Going Further > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > Published: June 25, 2007 > > ...Having already provoked parents, women's groups and the ratings > board with explicit ads for the coming torture movie ''Captivity,'' > Mr. Solomon and his After Dark Films now intend to introduce the film, > set for release July 13, with a party that may set a new standard for > the politically incorrect. > > ...But the warren of live torture rooms is a must. As Mr. Solomon > envisions it, individuals in torture gear will wander through the West > Hollywood club Privilege grabbing partygoers. All of which is a > prelude to an undisclosed main event that, he warned last week over > slices of pizza a few doors from his company's new offices on the > Sunset Strip, is ''probably not legal.'' "'The women's groups > definitely will love it,'' Mr. Solomon hinted. ''I call it my personal > little tribute to them.'' > > Mr. Solomon, a fast-talking 35-year-old, and his genre-film company > were barely noticed until outrage at the ''Captivity'' billboards -- > which chronicled a young woman's torment, with frames titled > ''Abduction,'' ''Confinement,'' ''Torture,'' ''Termination'' -- led to > a rare censure by the Motion Picture Association of America this > spring. > > When the association's ratings board suspended its process for a month > as a punitive measure, ''Captivity'' missed its May release date and > was bumped to June 22. But Bob Weinstein and his Dimension Films > wanted that date for their competing horror film ''1408,'' and he > persuaded Mr. Solomon to swap for Friday, July 13. Mr. Solomon quickly > called that Friday ''Captivity Day.'' > > ...These added explicit torture , including a so-called ''milkshake'' > scene that involves body parts and a blender, to a picture that was > largely psychological in its thrust when After Dark acquired the > rights to it. > > Government to Take a Hard Look at Horror > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > Published: March 24, 2007 > > > ...Earlier this week, After Dark and Lionsgate scrambled to contain > the public-relations damage after a Los Angeles Times columnist quoted > several young students objecting to an especially gruesome billboard > for ''Captivity'' near their middle school. After Dark, which is > expected to release the film on May 18 with Lionsgate, quickly agreed > to pull part of its ad campaign. > > ....Horror aficionados date the genre's current flourishing to October > 2004. The first of Lionsgate's ''Saw'' movies, about a demonically > inventive serial killer, opened to a surprisingly strong $18 million > on its first weekend, though it lacked an expensive cast or a > pedigreed filmmaker. Sequels, imitators and close cousins soon > followed. > > ...Fox Atomic, a division formed by Fox Searchlight to cultivate the > late-teenage and early-adult audience, on March 6 placed an ad for its > film ''The Hills Have Eyes 2'' with an evening showing of > ''Dodgeball,'' rated PG-13, on FX. The ad identified ''Hills,'' about > National Guard trainees brutally murdered by mutants, as being not yet > rated, though film association guidelines call for the disclosure of > ratings in ads, and the company had accepted an R rating the day > before. John Hegeman, Fox Atomic's chief operating officer, said the R > rating was missing because it takes about two days to alter a > television spot > > ....official sites for R-rated fare -- deal with > Bloody-disgusting.com, Arrow in the Head (joblo.com/arrow), > Fangoria.com, or any of another dozen such Web sites. > (Bloody-disgusting, for example, includes chat forums that address > such questions as: ''Can anyone suggest a good torture-esk > movie?'')...The operators of several such sites said they had no way > of knowing how many of their visitors were under 17, but believed the > numbers were substantial. ''The horror site skews a little more toward > the younger ones,'' said Berge Garabedian, founder of the Joblo.com > film site and its associated Arrow in the Head horror section, which > this week carried a banner ad for an unrated DVD of ''Sublime,'' about > gruesome murder in a hospital, from Warner Home Video. Mr. Garabedian > said he tried to block visitors under 15 from discussion boards in > order to eliminate ''a lot of MySpace craziness,'' but thought a > considerable share of his Arrow in the Head visitors to be in the > 13-to-18-year-old age range. > > ....Experian Simmons Research found that 12 percent of respondents > between the ages of 12 and 17 reported watching ''Saw II'' in > theaters, while 12 percent said they had seen the film on DVD, and 26 > percent reported viewing any horror in theaters. In its 2004 report, > the Federal Trade Commission said that in 36 percent of their > attempts, its underage ''mystery shoppers'' were able to buy a movie > ticket without an age check in theaters, down somewhat from about half > in 2000. Meanwhile 81 percent of the young buyers obtained R-rated > DVDs without a check. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! > FareChase. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From ysikand at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 14:38:40 2007 From: ysikand at gmail.com (Yogi Sikand) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:38:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] American Terror in Iraq Message-ID: <48097acc0709130208i3baad9b9p4fc13a179d099c94@mail.gmail.com> The erasing of Iraq It's a tried-and-tested torture technique: strike fear into your victims, deprive them of cherished essentials and then eradicate their memories. In 2003, the US applied this on an enormous scale for its invasion of Iraq. And then, after Saddam's regime crumbled, Washington set out to rebuild the traumatised country through a disastrous programme of privatisation and unfettered capitalism, as Naomi Klein shows in this exclusive extract from her new book Naomi Klein Tuesday September 11 2007 The Guardian When the Canadian citizen Maher Arar was grabbed by US agents at JFK airport in 2002 and taken to Syria, a victim of extraordinary rendition, his interrogators engaged in a tried-and-tested torture technique. "They put me on a chair, and one of the men started asking me questions ... If I did not answer quickly enough, he would point to a metal chair in the corner and ask, 'Do you want me to use this?' I was terrified, and I did not want to be tortured. I would say anything to avoid torture." The technique Arar was being subjected to is known as "the showing of the instruments," or, in US military lingo, "fear up". Torturers know that one of their most potent weapons is the prisoner's own imagination - often just showing fearsome instruments is more effective than using them. As the day of the invasion of Iraq drew closer, US news media outlets were conscripted by the Pentagon to "fear up" Iraq. "They're calling it 'A-Day'," began a report on CBS News that aired two months before the war began. "A as in airstrikes so devastating they would leave Saddam's soldiers unable or unwilling to fight." Viewers were introduced to Harlan Ullman, an author of the Shock and Awe doctrine, who explained that "you have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons at Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but in minutes". The anchor, Dan Rather, ended the telecast with a disclaimer: "We assure you this report contains no information that the Defense Department thinks could help the Iraqi military." He could have gone further: the report, like so many others in this period, was an integral part of the Department of Defense's strategy - fear up. Iraqis, who picked up the terrifying reports on contraband satellites or in phone calls from relatives abroad, spent months imagining the horrors of Shock and Awe. The phrase itself became a potent psychological weapon. Would it be worse than 1991? If the Americans really thought Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, would they launch a nuclear attack? One answer was provided a week before the invasion. The Pentagon invited Washington's military press corps on a special field trip to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida to witness the testing of the Moab, which officially stands for Massive Ordnance Air Blast, but which everyone in the military calls the "Mother of All Bombs". At 21,000lb, it is the largest non-nuclear explosive ever built, able to create, in the words of CNN's Jamie McIntyre, "a 10,000ft-high mushroom-like cloud that looks and feels like a nuclear weapon". In his report, McIntyre said that even if it was never used, the bomb's very existence "could still pack a psychological wallop" - a tacit acknowledgement of the role he himself was playing in delivering that wallop. Like prisoners in interrogation cells, Iraqis were being shown the instruments. "The goal is to have the capabilities of the coalition so clear and so obvious that there's an enormous disincentive for the Iraqi military to fight," Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld explained on the same programme. When the war began, the residents of Baghdad were subjected to sensory deprivation on a mass scale. One by one, the city's sensory inputs were cut off; the ears were the first to go. On the night of March 28 2003, as US troops drew closer to Baghdad, the ministry of communication was bombed and set ablaze, as were four Baghdad telephone exchanges, with massive bunker-busters, cutting off millions of phones across the city. The targeting of the phone exchanges continued - 12 in total - until, by April 2, there was barely a phone working in all of Baghdad. During the same assault, television and radio transmitters were also hit, making it impossible for families in Baghdad, huddling in their homes, to pick up even a weak signal carrying news of what was going on outside their doors. Many Iraqis say that the shredding of their phone system was the most psychologically wrenching part of the air attack. The combination of hearing and feeling bombs going off everywhere while being unable to call a few blocks away to find out if loved ones were alive, or to reassure terrified relatives living abroad, was pure torment. Journalists based in Baghdad were swarmed by desperate local residents begging for a few moments with their satellite phones or pressing numbers into the reporters' hands along with pleas to call a brother or an uncle in London or Baltimore. "Tell him everything is OK. Tell him his mother and father are fine. Tell him hello. Tell him not to worry." By then, most pharmacies in Baghdad had sold out of sleeping aids and anti-depressants, and the city was completely cleaned out of Valium. Next to go were the eyes. "There was no audible explosion, no discernible change in the early-evening bombardments, but in an instant, an entire city of 5 million people was plunged into an awful, endless night," the Guardian reported on April 4. Darkness was "relieved only by the headlights of passing cars". Trapped in their homes, Baghdad's residents could not speak to each other, hear each other or see outside. Like a prisoner destined for a CIA black site, the entire city was shackled and hooded. Next it was stripped. In hostile interrogations, the first stage of breaking down prisoners is stripping them of their own clothes and any items that have the power to evoke their sense of self - so-called comfort items. Often objects that are of particular value to a prisoner, such as the Qur'an or a cherished photograph, are treated with open disrespect. The message is "You are no one, you are who we want you to be," the essence of dehumanisation. Iraqis went through this unmaking process collectively, as they watched their most important institutions desecrated, their history loaded on to trucks and disappeared. The bombing badly injured Iraq, but it was the looting, unchecked by occupying troops, that did the most to erase the heart of the country that was. "The hundreds of looters who smashed ancient ceramics, stripped display cases and pocketed gold and other antiquities from the National Museum of Iraq pillaged nothing less than records of the first human society," reported the Los Angeles Times. "Gone are 80% of the museum's 170,000 priceless objects." The national library, which contained copies of every book and doctoral thesis ever published in Iraq, was a blackened ruin. Thousand-year-old illuminated Qur'ans had disappeared from the Ministry of Religious Affairs, which was left a burned-out shell. "Our national heritage is lost," pronounced a Baghdad high-school teacher. A local merchant said of the museum, "It was the soul of Iraq. If the museum doesn't recover the looted treasures, I will feel like a part of my own soul has been stolen." McGuire Gibson, an archaeologist at the University of Chicago, called it "a lot like a lobotomy. The deep memory of an entire culture, a culture that has continued for thousands of yea rs, has been removed". Thanks mostly to the efforts of clerics who organised salvage missions in the midst of the looting, a portion of the artefacts has been recovered. But many Iraqis were, and still are, convinced that the memory lobotomy was intentional - part of Washington's plans to excise the strong, rooted nation that was and replace it with their own model. "Baghdad is the mother of Arab culture," 70-year-old Ahmed Abdullah told the Washington Post, "and they want to wipe out our culture." As the war planners were quick to point out, the looting was done by Iraqis, not foreign troops. And it is true that Rumsfeld did not plan for Iraq to be sacked - but he did not take measures to prevent it from happening either, or to stop it once it had begun. These were failures that cannot be dismissed as mere oversights. During the 1991 Gulf war, 13 Iraqi museums were attacked by looters, so there was every reason to believe that poverty, anger at the old regime and the general atmosphere of chaos would prompt some Iraqis to respond in the same way (especially given that Saddam had emptied the prisons several months earlier). The Pentagon had been warned by leading archaeologists that it needed to have an airtight strategy to protect museums and libraries before any attack, and a March 26 Pentagon memo to coalition command listed "in order of importance, 16 sites that were crucial to protect in Baghdad". Second on the list was the museum. Other warnings had urged Rumsfeld to send an international police contingent in with the troops to maintain public order -another suggestion that was ignored. Even without the police, however, there were enough US soldiers in Baghdad for a few to be dispatched to the key cultural sites, but they weren't sent. There are numerous reports of US soldiers hanging out by their armoured vehicles and watching as trucks loaded with loot drove by - a reflection of the "stuff happens" indifference coming straight from Rumsfeld. Some units took it upon themselves to stop the looting, but in other instances, soldiers joined in. The Baghdad International Airport was completely trashed by soldiers who, according to Time, smashed furniture and then moved on to the commercial jets on the runway: "US soldiers looking for comfortable seats and souvenirs ripped out many of the planes' fittings, slashed seats, damaged cockpit equipment and popped out every windshield." The result was an estimated $100m worth of damage to Iraq's national airline - which was one of the first assets to be put on the auction block in an early and contentious partial privat isation. Some insight into why there was so little official interest in stopping the looting has since been provided by two men who played pivotal roles in the occupation - Peter McPherson, the senior economic adviser to Paul Bremer, and John Agresto, director of higher education reconstruction for the occupation. McPherson said that when he saw Iraqis taking state property - cars, buses, ministry equipment - it didn't bother him. His job, as Iraq's top economic shock therapist, was to radically downsize the state and privatise its assets, which meant that the looters were really just giving him a jump-start. "I thought the privatisation that occurs sort of naturally when somebody took over their state vehicle, or began to drive a truck that the state used to own, was just fine," he said. A veteran bureaucrat of the Reagan administration and a firm believer in Chicago School economics, McPherson termed the pillage a form of public-sector "shrinkage". His colleague John Agresto also saw a silver lining as he watched the looting of Baghdad on TV. He envisioned his job - "a never-to-be-repeated adventure" - as the remaking of Iraq's system of higher education from scratch. In that context, the stripping of the universities and the education ministry was, he explained, "the opportunity for a clean start," a chance to give Iraq's schools "the best modern equipment". If the mission was "nation creating," as so many clearly believed it to be, then everything that remained of the old country was only going to get in the way. Agresto was the former president of St John's College in New Mexico, which specialises in a Great Books curriculum [which emphasises an education based on broad reading]. He explained that although he knew nothing of Iraq, he had refrained from reading books about the country before making the trip so that he would arrive "with as open a mind as I could have". Like Iraq's colleges, Agresto would be a blank sl ate. If Agresto had read a book or two, he might have thought twice about the need to erase everything and start all over again. He could have learned, for instance, that before the sanctions strangled the country, Iraq had the best education system in the region, with the highest literacy rates in the Arab world - in 1985, 89% of Iraqis were literate. By contrast, in Agresto's home state of New Mexico, 46% of the population is functionally illiterate, and 20% are unable do "basic math[s] to determine the total on a sales receipt". Yet Agresto was so convinced of the superiority of American systems that he seemed unable to entertain the possibility that Iraqis might want to salvage and protect their own culture and that they might feel its destruction as a wrenching loss. This neo-colonialist blindness is a running theme in the war on terror. At the US-run prison at Guantánamo Bay, there is a room known as "the love shack". Detainees are taken there after their captors have decided they are not enemy combatants and will soon be released. Inside the love shack, prisoners are allowed to watch Hollywood movies and are plied with American junk food. Asif Iqbal, one of three British detainees known as the "Tipton Three," was permitted several visits there before he and his two friends were finally sent home. "We would get to watch DVDs, eat McDonald's, eat Pizza Hut and basically chill out. We were not shackled in this area ... We had no idea why they were being like that to us. The rest of the week we were back in the cages as usual ... On one occasion Lesley [an FBI official] brought Pringles, ice cream and chocolates; this was the final Sunday before we came back to England." His friend Rhuhel Ahmed speculated that the special treatment " was because they knew they had messed us about and tortured us for two and half years and they hoped we would forget it". Ahmed and Iqbal had been grabbed by the Northern Alliance while visiting Afghanistan on their way to a wedding. They had been violently beaten, injected with unidentified drugs, put in stress positions for hours, sleep deprived, forcibly shaven and denied all legal rights for 29 months. And yet they were supposed to "forget it" in the face of the overwhelming allure of Pringles. That was actually the plan. It's hard to believe - but then again, that was pretty much Washington's game plan for Iraq: shock and terrorise the entire country, deliberately ruin its infrastructure, do nothing while its culture and history are ransacked, then make it all OK with an unlimited supply of cheap household appliances and imported junk food. In Iraq, this cycle of culture erasing and culture replacing was not theoretical; it all unfolded in a matter of weeks. Paul Bremer, appointed by Bush to serve as director of the occupation authority in Iraq, admits that when he first arrived in Baghdad, the looting was still going strong and order was far from restored. "Baghdad was on fire, literally, as I drove in from the airport. There was no traffic on the streets; there was no electricity anywhere; no oil production; no economic activity; there wasn't a single policeman on duty anywhere." And yet his solution to this crisis was to immediately fling open the country's borders to absolutely unrestricted imports: no tariffs, no duties, no inspections, no taxes. Iraq, Bremer declared two weeks after he arrived, was "open for business". Overnight, Iraq went from being one of the most isolated countries in the world, sealed off from the most basic trade by strict UN sanctions, to becoming the widest-open market anywhere. While the pickup trucks stuffed with loot were still being driven to buyers in Jordan, Syria and Iran, passing them in the opposite direction were convoys of flatbeds piled high with Chinese TVs, Hollywood DVDs and Jordanian satellite dishes, ready to be unloaded on the sidewalks of Baghdad's Karada district. Just as one culture was being burned and stripped for parts, another was pouring in, prepackaged, to replace it. One of the US businesses ready and waiting to be the gateway to this experiment in frontier capitalism was New Bridge Strategies, started by Joe Allbaugh, Bush's ex-head of Fema [Federal Emergency Management Agency]. It promised to use its top-level political connections to help US multinationals land a piece of the action in Iraq. "Getting the rights to distribute Procter & Gamble products would be a gold mine," one of the company's partners enthused. "One well-stocked 7-Eleven could knock out 30 Iraqi stores; a Wal-Mart could take over the country." Like the prisoners in Guantánamo's love shack, all of Iraq was going to be bought off with Pringles and pop culture - that, at least, was the Bush administration's idea of a postwar plan. Ewen Cameron was a psychiatrist who performed CIA-funded experiments on the effects of electric shock and sensory deprivation on patients, without their knowledge, in the 1950s. When I was researching what he did I came across an observation made by one of his colleagues, a psychiatrist named Fred Lowy. "The Freudians had developed all these subtle methods of peeling the onion to get at the heart of the problem," he said. "Cameron wanted to drill right through and to hell with the layers. But, as we later discovered, the layers are all there is." Cameron thought he could blast away all his patients' layers and start again; he dreamed of creating brand-new personalities. But his patients weren't reborn: they were confused, injured, broken. Iraq's shock therapists blasted away at the layers too, seeking that elusive blank slate on which to create their new model country. They found only the piles of rubble that they themselves had created, and millions of psychologically and physically shattered people - shattered by Saddam, shattered by war, shattered by one another. Bush's in-house disaster capitalists didn't wipe Iraq clean, they just stirred it up. Rather than a tabula rasa, purified of history, they found ancient feuds, brought to the surface to merge with fresh vendettas from each new attack - on a mosque in Karbala, in Samarra, on a market, a ministry, a hospital. Countries, like people, don't reboot to zero with a good shock; they just break and keep on breaking. Which, of course, requires more blasting - upping the dosage, holding down the button longer, more pain, more bombs, more torture. Former deputy secretary of state Richard Armitage, who had predicted that Iraqis would be easily marshalled from A to B, has since concluded that the real problem was that the US was too soft. "The humane way in which the coalition fought the war," he said, "actually has led to a situation where it is more difficult to get people to come together, not less. In Germany and Japan [after the second world war], the population was exhausted and deeply shocked by what had happened, but in Iraq it's been the opposite. A very rapid victory over enemy forces has meant we've not had the cowed population we had in Japan and Germany ... The US is dealing with an Iraqi population that is un-shocked and un-awed." By January 2007, Bush and his advisers were still convinced that they could gain control of Iraq with one good "surge". The report on which the surge strategy was based aimed for "the successful clearing of central Baghdad". In the 70s, when the corporatist crusade began, it used tactics that courts ruled were overtly genocidal: the deliberate erasure of a segment of the population. In Iraq, something even more monstrous has happened - the erasure not of a segment of the population, but of an entire country; Iraq is disappearing, disintegrating. It began, as it often does, with the disappearance of women behind veils and doors, then the children disappeared from the schools - as of 2006, two-thirds of them stayed home. Next came the professionals: doctors, professors, entrepreneurs, scientists, pharmacists, judges, lawyers. An estimated 300 Iraqi academics have been assassinated by death squads since the US invasion, including several deans of departments; thousands more have fled. Doctors have fared even worse: by February 2007, an estimated 2,000 had been killed and 12,000 had fled. In November 2006, the UN High Commission for Refugees estimated that 3,000 Iraqis were fleeing the country every day. By April 2007, the organisation reported that 4 million people had been forced to leave their homes - roughly one in seven Iraqis. Only a few hundred of those refugees had been welcomed into the United States. With Iraqi industry all but collapsed, one of the only local businesses booming is kidnapping. Over just three and a half months in early 2006, nearly 20,000 people were kidnapped in Iraq. The only time the international media pays attention is when a westerner is taken, but the vast majority of abductions are Iraqi professionals, grabbed as they travel to and from work. Their families either come up with tens of thousands in US dollars for the ransom money or identify their bodies at the morgue. Torture has also emerged as a thriving industry. Human rights groups have documented numerous cases of Iraqi police demanding thousands of dollars from the families of prisoners in exchange for a halt to torture. It is Iraq's own domestic version of disaster capitalism. This was not what the Bush administration intended for Iraq when it was selected as the model nation for the rest of the Arab world. The occupation had begun with cheerful talk of clean slates and fresh starts. It didn't take long, however, for the quest for cleanliness to slip into talk into "pulling Islamism up from the root" in Sadr City or Najaf and removing "the cancer of radical Islam" from Fallujah and Ramadi - what was not clean would be scrubbed out by force. That is what happens with projects to build model societies in other people's countries. The cleansing campaigns are rarely premeditated. It is only when the people who live on the land refuse to abandon their past that the dream of the clean slate morphs into its doppelgänger, the scorched earth - only then that the dream of total creation morphs into a campaign of total destruction. The unanticipated violence that now engulfs Iraq is the creation of the lethally optimistic architects of the war - it was preordained in that original seemingly innocuous, even idealistic phrase, "a model for a new Middle East". The disintegration of Iraq has its roots in the ideology that demanded a tabula rasa on which to write its new story. And when no such pristine tableau presented itself, the supporter of that ideology proceeded to blast and surge and blast again in the hope of reaching that promised land. · Extracted from: The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism by Naomi Klein, published by Allen Lane on September 20, priced £25. © Naomi Klein 2007. To order a copy for £23 with free p&p go to guardian.co.uk/bookshop or call 0870 836 0875. · Naomi Klein will be discussing The Shock Doctrine at the Queen Elizabeth Hall, Southbank Centre, London SE1 this Thursday at 7.30pm. Alfonso Cuarón will also be introducing his short film which is a companion to the book, which will be screened. www.shockdoctrine.com From ysikand at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 14:46:29 2007 From: ysikand at gmail.com (Yogi Sikand) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:46:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Iran_Diary=97Part_2?= Message-ID: <48097acc0709130216l7e2cc5abm7cf899f1eae4e910@mail.gmail.com> Iran Diary—Part 2 Yoginder Sikand No one is quite sure when the conference is to start. We have not been supplied with a schedule of the proceedings. After a sumptuous breakfast, I wait at the lobby for the other participants. Perhaps they might know what is to transpire next. Slowly, some of them begin to mill around in the lobby. I hear four different versions about the time and venue of the conference. I also hear tongues, including my own, click in irritation. I step out to take a walk in the lawn in front of the entrance to the hotel. The morning traffic on the road ahead is almost incessant. At the equivalent of four rupees a litre, petrol is plentiful and cheap in Iran, although under American-inspired sanctions Iran has been denied oil refining technology, which means that it has to import most of its refined oil in exchange for crude oil exports. Yet, despite this and the recent rationing of petrol imposed by the government, limiting it to a hundred litres per vehicle a month, traffic on Tehran's roads is heavy, but well organized. The smooth broad roads ensure that traffic jams are rare. I spot a board above the entrance of the hotel proclaiming 'The Revolution of Imam Khomeini Shall Continue Until the Arrival of the Imam Mahdi'. I notice little of this revolutionary fervour among the visitors at the Hotel Esteghlal, however, who arrive in their swank foreign-made cars. Hardly any men sport the beard or stubble that was almost mandatory during the heady days of the Revolution of 1979. They are mostly in neatly starched suits or informally dressed in jeans and T-shirts. Few chador-clad women are to be seen. Clearly, it seems to me, on the cultural front, the advocates of the Islamic Revolution have much to be worried about. I walk down the boulevard to a shopping district nearby. The crass consumerism that pervades all around strikes me in the face. So, too, are the obvious class divides. Iranian Islamic scholars have penned numerous tracts on 'Islamic economics', arguing for an economic model that places piety, moral values and concern for the poor at its centre. The overloaded and overcrowded shops that I see before me indicate the difficulty of translating revolutionary ideals into practice. I buy myself a foot-long multi-flavoured ice-cream for the equivalent of fifteen Indian rupees, which lasts me till I get back to the hotel half an hour later. The organizers of the conference have suddenly got their act together, and are herding the participants into a bus waiting in the porch of the hotel. The bus takes us to an enormous stadium-like auditorium a short distance away. This, we are informed, is a hall used for international functions organized by the Iranian government. The railings around the auditorium are decorated with brightly coloured banners bearing finely crafted calligraphic slogans hailing the twelfth Shia Imam, the Imam Mahdi, on his birthday, with which our conference coincides. In addition are giant pictures of the Ayatollahs Khomeini and Khamenei. A bevy of guards stands at the gate, which swings open as we walk inside in file, headed by Masoud Pour Sayed Aghaei, the director of the organization that is hosting us, the Bright Future Institute. He wears the uniform of a Shia cleric—a loose white gown and a black mantle. The ponderous black turban that he bears on his head marks him out as a Sayyed, a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad. He has been bestowed with the honorific title of 'Hujjat ul-Islam wal Muslimin' or 'The Proof of Islam and the Muslims', indicating that he occupies a very senior position in the Shia clerical hierarchy. The guards salute the participants as they pass through the gate. Suddenly, I feel important. The Bright Future Institute is not a tutorial centre for school students seeking a bright future, as its name might seem to suggest. Rather, it sees itself charged with the very serious task of heralding the arrival of the Imam Mahdi, who, in line with Shia belief, will rally with Jesus Christ to put an end to the Anti-Christ and establish a global government. The conference that we have been invited to aims to discuss various aspects of the doctrine of the Imam Mahdi. My paper is on a bizarre cult figure, a certain Pakistani maverick called Riyaz Goharshahi, who made the pompous claim of being the Imam Mahdi of the Muslims, as well as the Promised Messiah of the Jews and Christians and the Kalki Avatar of the Hindus, all at the same time. The conference hall is the grandest I have ever seen. It must have a seating capacity of well over two thousand. I settle into a comfortable reclining seat near the podium and watch people saunter in. Most of them are Iranians, but there are a fair number of Arabs, Indians and Pakistanis, some Africans and a couple of Europeans. There are several Shia clerics, distinguishable by their graceful costume, sitting together in front. They exude a certain aura and charm, with their carefully-wound turbans and long robes and the black mantles tossed around their shoulders. A young man sitting next to me, an Iranian engineer who has prepared a paper on 'The Global Governance System of the Imam Mahdi', informs me that among these are some very revered Grand Ayatollahs. These include Ayatollah Jamaati, the head of the Guidance Council, and Ayatollah Mahdavi Kanei, one of the leading clerics of the Shia world. The conference is inaugurated by recitation of verses from the Quran, followed by a choir singing inspirational hymns. The chair for the morning's session mounts the podium and greets the participants, who number more than five hundred. He announces that the arrival of the Imam Mahdi will be heralded by the Shias, in particularly by the Iranians, and that the Islamic Republic of Iran will continue until the Mahdi establishes his global government. Meanwhile, he advises, Shias must prepare for his return from his present state of occultation which has lasted for more than a thousand years. For this purpose, he stresses, the government, the media and the education system must be pressed into service. The United States, he claims, is conspiring to weaken 'Mahdist teachings' and has, he alleges, even formed a team to research the subject. Shias, hewarns, must be aware of these plots. His speech is interrupted several times, as indeed in the case of all the other speakers that follow him, by enthusiastic cries from the audience offering salutations to the Prophet and his family, whose descendants are held in particular esteem by the Shias. A couple of other speakers, including some Ayatollahs, take their turn to make broadly the same sort of appeal to the audience. Then, all of a sudden, people get to their feet and a curtain of silence descends on the auditorium. A handsome middle-aged man, dressed in a simple grey suit, walks down the aisle to take his seat along with the Ayatollahs. He is surrounded by a large crowd of admirers. I recognize him from his pictures I've seen: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the President of Iran. He is the chief guest of the conference. I'm elated, and feel even more important. Much reviled in Western propaganda, Ahmadinejad is clearly a charismatic figure, admired by millions of Iranians. His austerity is proverbial, so I understand from what many Iranians tell me. When once asked by an American television station, "When you look into the mirror in the morning what do you say to yourself?", his reply, so it is said, was , "I see the person in the mirror and tell him, 'Remember, you are no more than a small servant. Ahead of you today is the heavy responsibility to serve the Iranian nation'". On becoming President, he is said to have donated all the valuable Persian rugs that graced the office of the Presidency to a mosque in Tehran. He did away with the opulent lounge for visitors, replacing it with a simple room with the barest of wooden furniture. He ordered that the President's special aircraft be converted into a cargo plane in order to lighten the burden on the public exchequer, and he himself flies in ordinary commercial airlines. On many occasions he has joined the cleaning staff of Tehran municipality to clean the streets in the area where is house is located. His own personal assets are modest by any standards: he owns a car manufactured three decades ago and a small house that he inherited from his father, located in one of the most deprived quarters of Tehran, where he still lives. He refuses to take his personal salary, saying that it actually belongs to the Iranian nation. Clearly, leaders of other countries, particularly Bush and his friends who have now mounted a vicious vilification campaign against Ahmadinejad, can profit from his austere example. Ahmadinejad looks firm but yet somewhat gentle at the same time. He is an impressive speaker, and the audience listens to him in rapt attention. His speech, delivered in Farsi, is simultaneously translated into various languages. He talks of how all the many prophets have all taught the same basic thing, worship of the one God, the Ultimate source of all power. Imperialist forces, he says, are working against God's plan for humankind and would meet divine wrath. The Imam Mahdi will put an end to their oppression. That is why, he says, the imperialists are as mortally afraid of the Imam Mahdi as the Pharoah was of Moses. 'Apologists for imperialism claim that liberal democracy and capitalism represent the end of history', he says, 'but it is actually the history of the oppressors that is coming to an end, to be replaced by the rebirth of humankind based on unity and faith in the one God'. The President's speech is greeted with a passionate outburst of salawats. As he descends from the podium he is surrounded by a swarm of admirers, pushing and shoving each other to shake his hand or receive his autograph. I join the crowd, trying to nudge my way through, but I am forced aside by a bunch of excited women jostling to catch a glimpse of the President as he makes his way out of the hall. Once the President leaves, the crowd rushes towards the rows of tables on which cups of tea and chocolate biscuits have been laid out. The tea is over by the time I manage to get in, so I step outside for a well-deserved cigarette. -- Sukhia Sab Sansar Khaye Aur Soye Dukhia Das Kabir Jagey Aur Roye The world is 'happy', eating and sleeping The forlorn Kabir Das is awake and weeping From adityarajkaul at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 14:50:34 2007 From: adityarajkaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:50:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! Message-ID: *The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News *** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's misfortune was that he was in uniform. That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were waiting near the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them to the airport. At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four to five Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing that Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last thing he knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. Hardly 50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a head constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained silent as the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a clockwise circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into Srinagar's numerous back lanes. *Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to defend the killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the agents of the 'enemy'. * *-- Aditya Raj Kaul Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Sep 13 14:52:11 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:52:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "The questioning of the arrested persons is on now, " he said. Message-ID: <9c06aab30709130222p25aba5el779584be46036c4c@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Every now and then, some "terrorist" or another is arrested. Never an alleged terrorist, but a proclaimed one. Every now and then there is a blast that kills dozens. We never know who commits these attacks. We never will. A man has been sentenced to death this morning for an attack on the Red Fort. What a circus this is, and what an audience we are. Two news reports below. The first one will affect your reading of the second one. Enjoy. Shivam o o o o o o IB, cops in murky frame-up 13 Sep 2007, 0125 hrs IST,Sachin Parashar,TNN http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/IB_cops_in_murky_frame-up/articleshow/2363637.cms NEW DELHI: The CBI has found that Intelligence Bureau operatives colluded with Delhi Police special cell sleuths to 'plant' RDX on two youths who were arrested as 'Al Badr terrorists', TOI has learnt. The shocking conclusion comes a month after the agency told the Delhi High Court that the special cell's probe into the murky affair "didn't inspire confidence". New Delhi: The CBI has found that Intelligence Bureau operatives colluded with Delhi Police special cell sleuths to 'plant' RDX on two youths who were arrested as 'Al Badr terrorists', TOI has learnt. The shocking conclusion comes a month after the agency told the Delhi High Court that the special cell's probe into the murky affair "didn't inspire confidence". Top CBI sources told TOI on Wednesday that the seized RDX appeared to have been planted on the two 'terrorists' Mohd Moarif Qamar and Irshad Ali. The agency will submit its report, which indicts officers of IB and Delhi Police special cell, to the court on October 24. While similar episodes in the past have hurt the credibility of the anti-terror agencies, this one stands out because it marks a rare instance where Intelligence Bureau operatives collaborated in the plot hatched by Delhi Police's special cell against its former informers. The IB official named in the CBI report for abducting Qamar is inspector Majid Din. Din had identified himself as Khaled when he picked up Qamar. The CBI, however, managed to track him through the mobile phone which he used to lure his victim. Din had committed the blunder of using his own phone (9810702001) for the purpose. The disclosure can put his senior colleagues in IB also under scrutiny. Delhi Police special cell officers in the dock after the CBI probe are inspector Sanjay Dutt and sub-inspectors Vinay Tyagi, Ravinder Tyagi and Subhash Vats. The CBI report said they posed as two other officials of special cell, inspectors Hriday Bhushan and Lalit Mohan Negi, to make the frame-up appear a genuine anti-terror operation. o o o o Al-Badr Militant, 3 Lashkar Recruits Arrested: Indian Police By Fayaz Wani, Srinagar, Sept 10: http://newsblaze.com/story/20070910102057kash.nb/newsblaze/KASHMIR1/Kashmir.html Indian police claimed that they have arrested a militant of the Pakistan based militant group, Al Badar and detained three recruits of Lashkar-e-Toiba. A police spokesperson said that police and Indian army personnel in a joint operation arrested an Al-Badar militant Bilal Ahmad alias Abu Waqas son of Ghulamm Mohammad Teli of Tuldan Shopian, North Kashmir. He claimed that a hand grenade was recovered from the possession of the militant, who was on his way to Lolab Kupwara from Shopian. Meanwhile, a top police officer of Doda district in Kashmir claimed that three new recruits of Pakistan based militant group Lashkar-e-Toiba were arrested by police during different raids. He identified the arrested persons as Gulshan Ahmad Magray, Manzoor Ahmad Wani and Nisar Ahmad Parry. "The questioning of the arrested persons is on now", he said. From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Sep 13 16:40:52 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:40:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PUDR Report on Red Fort Case - Link and an Excerpt Message-ID: <46E91ABC.2030203@sarai.net> Dear Shivam, dear all, Many thanks, Shivam, for pointing us to these two excellent links about the murky workings of what I have earlier called (following a Turkish usage) the 'Deep State' in India in your recent posting - [Reader-list :"The questioning of the arrested persons is on now" he said.] Today is another really sad day as once again the judiciary seems to be intent on handing out a death sentence (in the Red Fort attack case) without having gone through the minimum procedural requirements of attending to a thorough investigation of the matter. The sad and tragic fate of one of the accused in the Red Fort Case, a man named Ashfaq, is a Kafkaesque story with some really bizarre turns. While the High Court today, confirmed the death sentence passed on him by the trial court , we might do well to examine some of the things that Ashfaq said in the course of his trial under section 313. Once again, we will be forced to ask whether or not, like in the 13 December case, the real protagonists of this attack are enjoying the distinction of continuing to remain in the shadows, while the pawns in the game are being sentenced to death. I urge you all to pay special attention to those parts of Ashfaq's testimony that attest to his relationship with an individual named Nain Singh (see below) I enclose below, an excerpt from an excellently researched document 'An Unfair Verdict' authored by an investigative team from the Peoples Union for Democratic Rights (PUDR) on the Red Fort Case, which was released on December 12, 2006 The entire report is available as a pdf file at - (scroll down to the third report on this webpage) http://www.pudr.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=55&Itemid=63 regards, Shuddha ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The story of Ashfaq : A Riddle Wrapped in a Mystery inside an Enigma (Excerpted from the PUDR Report - 'An Unfair Verdict' on the Red Fort Case) While Ashfaq’s Pakistani citizenship is admitted, other information is not as clear. Why did he come to India, at whose behest and what was he doing in Delhi? Ashfaq provides answers to some of these questions. While the Court has ignored most of these answers completely, they do appear to be corroborated by other evidence. In the statement of the accused (u/s 313, CrPC) in the court, when asked if he had anything to say (Q. no. 392), Ashfaq stated - “I used to work for ‘X’ branch, RAW [Research and Analysis Wing of the Cabinet Secretariat] since 1997. In the last days of June 2000, I had come to Kathmandu to give some documents to Sanjeev Gupta and I had reached there from Pakistan by a PIA flight on my passport no. 634417. In Pakistan, there is political party by the name of Pakhtoon milli party and RAW is supporting that party for the last 30-35 years. Sh Sagri Khan was member of that party and he was arrested by the police of Pakistan along with my younger brother. I received this news in Kathmandu and I spoke to Sh Sanjeev Gupta in this regard. My cousin had also advised me not to return to Pakistan for time being. Thereafter, Sh Sanjeev Gupta advised me to go to India and accompanied me upto Rauxol and from there I came to India by train. He gave me the address of Nain Singh and telephoned Nain Singh on 6834454 for accommodating me. Thereafter Nain Singh gave me a room in his house for my stay. He advised me not to tell my real name and address to anyone and to disclose myself as a resident of Jammu. Nain Singh used to do the business of money lending and I used to help in maintaining his accounts. After about one and a half month, I asked Nain Singh to get me some job as my money had already run out. Thereafter he got me opened the computer centre. Thereafter Nain Singh got sent some money through Sanjeev Gupta and the amount was around seven lacs, but Nain Singh did not disclose about receiving this huge amount… Thereafter I contacted my family and they asked to speak to Sanjeev Gupta who told me about sending Rs six lacs fifty thousand/seven lacs to Nain Singh. Thereafter on the asking of Sanjeev Gupta, Nain Singh got my bank account opened in HDFC bank… One Chaman Lal in Chandni Chowk and one Sardarji in Karol Bagh are also engaged in the business of money lending and I used to collect money from them on behalf of Nain Singh. On the birthday party of his son, Nain Singh got me introduced to Ins RS Bhasin and Ins Ved Prakash… On 25.12.2000 Nain Singh called me from computer centre to his house. Thereafter, those two persons who were in plainclothes and had come to my house in a white Maruti Zen car took me to a flat in Lodhi Colony, where both the inspectors along with one Sikh officer (were) present… I was interrogated by them about my entire background. Thereafter I was dropped at the house of Nain Singh… Nain Singh was not present at his house but his wife informed me about the telephonic call received from my in-laws at Ghazipur regarding dinner in the evening. I tried to make a call to my in-laws but could not get through. Thereafter I took a bus and reached the house of my in-laws. I asked my in-laws whether they had made a call to which they replied in negatives. I had reached there at about 8 to 8.30 pm and had finished our dinner at 10.00 pm when the police party raided the house…” The RAW angle is further substantiated when in his testimony in Court, Nain Singh (PW 20) states that he is working as Senior Field Assistant in the Cabinet Secretariat. While he denies working as an Intelligence man in the Cabinet Secretariat, he states, “I cannot disclose whether I am working for RAW”. Despite being asked specifically, Nain Singh states that he can not disclose his official address or those of the offices visited by him and adds, “I can not say whether I am not disclosing these addresses as my identity in the public would be disclosed.” Curiously he also claims that he cannot produce his identity card in open court and the testimony records that the I-Card was shown only to the Judge. No formal exemption appears to have been pleaded and accepted. The findings of the Judge on the identity card too are unknown as none of the above is referred to in the Judgement of the court despite being present in the records of the cross examination in the Court. The fact that an alleged LeT militant was living in the house of a RAW agent leads to many questions. These have not bothered the learned Judge. In fact the only reference made to Ashfaq’s alleged RAW background was a sarcastic reference at Page 306 when the Judge observes that Ashfaq is obviously educated as he has claimed to a RAW agent. The Court does not give any importance to the above statement of Ashfaq made in the Court despite the fact that it explains various incriminating circumstances against Ashfaq. Not only that but the statement also answers another vital question, one that the Prosecution does not. What was Ashfaq’s place of residence in the last few months? The prosecution leads no evidence to show where he was staying but states blandly that Ashfaq resided with Rehmana. In response to question no. 55, Ashfaq categorically states - “I stayed in the house of Mr Nain Singh from June/July 2000 till the date of my arrest on the recommendation of Mr Sanjeev Gupta, but not on rent.” The exact relationship between Ashfaq and Nain Singh is murky, at best. The investigation has clearly not looked into such aspects of the case, despite this providing a reasonable hypothesis for the various facts. There is much in the account of well known prisoners who escaped concocted cases mounted against them such as Iftekhar Geelani and SAR Geelani as well as their account of fellow prisoners in Tihar jail which suggests that it is possible to falsely implicate a person, manufacture and plant evidence. Such instances do not allow us the comfort of rejecting them outright. The implications of a Pakistani citizen alleged to be a LeT militant, living in the house of a RAW agent who also assists him with money and a job, are perhaps too vast for this report. Yet the manner in which the Court has completely overlooked these questions, even where the Prosecution has no better evidence to support its claims, raises serious doubts about the fairness of the trial and the conviction being a foregone conclusion – once his Pakistani identity is admitted and he is charged of being a terrorist. From theunderscoredhood at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 17:15:30 2007 From: theunderscoredhood at gmail.com (Raheema Begum) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:15:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ritual of eating ashes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, This mail triggered off something. One State Solution Week. Political term Update 2. Locusts Stand I. Best, Raheema. On 9/12/07, Ayona Datta wrote: > > Dear Readers, > > Does anyone know about the ritual of eating ashes? I recently encountered > this when someone ate the ashes from an incense pot after finishing her > prayers. Having never seen this before, I am wondering if someone can shed > light on this. Is this something connected to religion, caste, ethnicity > etc? or was this a one-off? Sorry for my ignorance, but I would appreciate > some help on this to understand some of my research experiences. > > Many Thanks > Ayona > _________________________________________________________________ > Get free emoticon packs and customisation from Windows Live. > http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 17:17:24 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:17:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> And the "intellectuals" will still have some argument................god Bless India. On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > *The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > *** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's misfortune > was that he was in uniform. > That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were waiting > near > the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them to the > airport. > At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four to > five > Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing that > Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last thing he > knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. Hardly > 50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a head > constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained silent > as > the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a clockwise > circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into Srinagar's > numerous back lanes. > *Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to defend the > killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the > agents > of the 'enemy'. * > > > *-- > Aditya Raj Kaul > Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 17:31:03 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:31:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709130501j690701eaj5164bbc5a16c9e23@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have some questions 1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a part of the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that they'll be targetted by militants 2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point of view. Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post is not marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his mind and make him apologise. 3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated people as militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we know that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs to be faced by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it by hate. 4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in since militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to the US and Ireland This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what you're trying to say, unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should include the debate. Rgds, Partha .................... On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > And the "intellectuals" will still have some argument................god > Bless India. > > > > On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > *The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > > > *** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > misfortune > > was that he was in uniform. > > That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were waiting > > near > > the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them to > the > > airport. > > At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four to > > five > > Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing > that > > Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last thing > he > > knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. > Hardly > > 50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a head > > constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained > silent > > as > > the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a clockwise > > circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into Srinagar's > > numerous back lanes. > > *Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to defend > the > > killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the > > agents > > of the 'enemy'. * > > > > > > *-- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 17:36:41 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:36:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <32144e990709130501j690701eaj5164bbc5a16c9e23@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709130501j690701eaj5164bbc5a16c9e23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709130506y1bfc6ffajcfa97f742f593771@mail.gmail.com> What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point that a woman is molested , they are prone to it." Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. People like you have zero nationalism and negative intellectualism. I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care even for the martyrs of his country. On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi, > > Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have some > questions > 1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? > That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a part of > the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be > targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that they'll be > targetted by militants > > 2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point of view. > > Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post is not > marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his mind > and make him apologise. > > 3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated people as > militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we know > that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs to be > faced > by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it by > hate. > > 4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in since > militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to the US > and Ireland > > This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what you're > trying to say, > unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should include > the debate. > > Rgds, Partha > .................... > > On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > And the "intellectuals" will still have some argument................god > > Bless India. > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > *The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > > > > > *** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > > misfortune > > > was that he was in uniform. > > > That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were waiting > > > > > near > > > the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them to > > the > > > airport. > > > At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four to > > > five > > > Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing > > that > > > Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last thing > > he > > > knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. > > Hardly > > > 50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a head > > > constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained > > silent > > > as > > > the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a clockwise > > > circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into Srinagar's > > > numerous back lanes. > > > *Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to defend > > the > > > killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the > > > agents > > > of the 'enemy'. * > > > > > > > > > *-- > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > > Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > > US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From parthaekka at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 17:56:42 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:56:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709130506y1bfc6ffajcfa97f742f593771@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709130501j690701eaj5164bbc5a16c9e23@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709130506y1bfc6ffajcfa97f742f593771@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709130526t67d5882bg9e016751074c8961@mail.gmail.com> Hi pawan, Unfortunately the 'logic' of your argument is constructed in emotion & not thought. Pls learn to read questions and then respond. As for what the issue you raised now, a 'woman' is not paid by my taxes to walk the road and catch someone who might rape her. Armed Forces personnel are paid by us to guard our country. That's their job. Just as a firefighter might die in putting out a fire, a soldier may die in putting down militancy. Sad as it is, that's a part of the job they sign up for. And that's got nothing to do with nationalism - unless you refer to my question of terrorism being a global phenomenon and dispute that fact. I didn't hear of the LTTE apologising for killing Rajeev Gandhi who wasn't even a soldier. What's your case? I still don't get it. As for martyrs of the country. My caring or not will not add or detract for his act. I do by best by paying my taxes honestly and not taking short cuts so that they get their pay whether I agree or disagree with the military tactics. So what does your blessing answer - which was my question in the previous mail. Would really appreciate it if you'd define what you're trying to say clearly instead of jumping around the place spreading blessings - unless, that is, you have nothing to say? Rgds, Partha On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point that a > woman is molested , they are prone to it." > > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > People like you have zero nationalism and negative intellectualism. > > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care even for > the martyrs of his country. > > > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have some > > questions > > 1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? > > That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a part of > > > > the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be > > targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that they'll be > > targetted by militants > > > > 2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point of > > view. > > Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post is not > > marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his mind > > and make him apologise. > > > > 3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated people as > > militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we know > > that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs to be > > faced > > by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it by > > hate. > > > > 4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in since > > militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to the US > > and Ireland > > > > This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what you're > > trying to say, > > unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should include > > the debate. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .................... > > > > On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > And the "intellectuals" will still have some > > > argument................god > > > Bless India. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > *The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > > > > > > > *** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > > > misfortune > > > > was that he was in uniform. > > > > That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were > > > waiting > > > > near > > > > the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them > > > to the > > > > airport. > > > > At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four > > > to > > > > five > > > > Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing > > > that > > > > Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last > > > thing he > > > > knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. > > > Hardly > > > > 50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a > > > head > > > > constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained > > > silent > > > > as > > > > the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a > > > clockwise > > > > circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into > > > Srinagar's > > > > numerous back lanes. > > > > *Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to > > > defend the > > > > killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the > > > > agents > > > > of the 'enemy'. * > > > > > > > > > > > > *-- > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > > > Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > > RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > > > US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From theunderscoredhood at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 18:02:32 2007 From: theunderscoredhood at gmail.com (Raheema Begum) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:02:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ritual of eating ashes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apologies, I did'nt know this had already been discussed at Sarai. :) Raheema. On 9/13/07, Raheema Begum wrote: > > Hi, > > This mail triggered off something. > > One State Solution Week. Political term Update 2. > Locusts Stand I. > > Best, > Raheema. > > On 9/12/07, Ayona Datta < ayonadatta at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > Dear Readers, > > > > Does anyone know about the ritual of eating ashes? I recently > > encountered this when someone ate the ashes from an incense pot after > > finishing her prayers. Having never seen this before, I am wondering if > > someone can shed light on this. Is this something connected to religion, > > caste, ethnicity etc? or was this a one-off? Sorry for my ignorance, but I > > would appreciate some help on this to understand some of my research > > experiences. > > > > Many Thanks > > Ayona > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get free emoticon packs and customisation from Windows Live. > > http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- ---------------------------------------------------- 'On the just and unjust alike it doth rain... The quality of mercy is not strained...' From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Sep 13 18:20:54 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:20:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E9322E.4010300@sarai.net> Dear all, Dear ARKP, It seems to me that you guys are the people most attatched to Yasin Malik on this list. I have rarely seen such undying affection or devotion to Yasin Malik as demonstrated by you, repeatedly. Really, the JKLF (Yasin Malik faction) should hire you as publicists. Whenever you have a problem, whenever your arguments are demonstrated as hollow, whenever the discussion moves on towards things more intersting than what you throw into the ring, you pull Yasin Malik out of your little bag of tricks. As if he was some kind of protective talisman behind whom you can shield your obvious inability to participate in a discussion. In two successive mails addressed to Pawan Durani, I had categorically stated my opposition to the use of violence, and also categorically mentioned that if any charges are brought in the legally prescribed manner against Yasin Malik, me, Pawan Durani, my father or Santa Claus on suspicion of homicide then they (Yasin Malik, me, Pawan Durani, my father and Santa Claus) should be required to stand a free and fair trial. I had said this while trying painstakingly to explain the meaning of the phrase 'he, or any other' which I had used when on another occasion, ARKP had brought out the effigy of Yasin Malik (yet again) to cover for their defeated arguments. I cannot understand why, after this, the issue of Yasin Malik refuses to go away. See my posts, 1. Re: [Reader-list] By R.J.Rummel, September 3, 2007 2. Re : [Reader-list] Reply To Shuddha (Yasin Sahibs Fan), September 4, 2007 In the first, I say - "As for the deaths of Indian State and Armed Forces Personnel. Let me make my position clear. I am not a votary of pursuing politics by violence, no matter who does it. Not because I have a moral position vis a vis violence, but because I believe that the strategy of terror, no matter who pursues it, invariably leads to secretive, un-accountable and un-democratic politics, which leads to popular movements being corrupted and infiltrated by the very forces that they are opposing. I think this has happenned in Kashmir, and it happenned both because of the machinations of the Indian state and the political immaturity of the pro Azadi 'tanzeems' in Jammu and Kashmir, and in the Kashmiri diaspora." In the second post, I say "if anyone, whether it is Yasin Malik or Santa Claus, or you, or me, or my father, that is what the "he or any other person" in the above paragraph means (reference to a quotaion from a fragement of my earlier post) - is found guilty of homicide in a free and fair trial, they should be punished for it, with a prison term if need be, as per the provisions of a criminal procedure code." I do not know how much clearer a position can be than this. And yet, again, and again, and again, we see Pawan Durani bringing up the allegation that there are poeple on this list (myself explicitly included) who serve as apologists either for Yasin Malik or for anyone else who has either committed or condoned the use of violence in Kashmir So the next time someone, anyone, in ARKP (though this type of bad sniping does seem to be the particular forte of A and P) brings out the effigy of Yasin Malik in any posting, dear readers, please understand that it is a semaphore, a code that indicates that they are admitting yet again that they are a bunch of losers, who refuse to learn any lessons from their defeats. We can sympathise (at a stretch) with the abjectness of that failure, but we cannot refuse to see it for what it is. I am also amused at the deliberate carping about the category of people that are being loosely called 'intellectuals' on this list. I fail to understand precisely what is wrong with being an 'intellectual' - with being a person who works for a living with words, images, ideas and concepts. Is it better to be a dentist, or a chef, or a traffic police inspector, or a gardener, or a financial analyst than it is to be a writer, a teacher, an artist, a philosopher, a librarian or a scientist? I see nothing wrong with being a dentist, or a chef, or a traffic police inspector, or a gardener, or a financial analyst, and consequently, I fail to see what is wrong with being what is loosely called 'an intellectual'. Since when did the choice of your practice mark you out as being the appropriate target of abuse. Would it make sense, if I, or anyone else were to say on this list, "...and the 'dentists' will still have some argument...........god bless India'. Is it someone's fault that they take care about how they write, or read, or express an argument? Is it a mistake, an error, to be able to work through the nuances of a statement, or an argument, to try and see complexity, or to try and engage in a dialogue on the basis of a respect for knowledge and the spirit of dialogue? I think it is far worse to see some people demonstrate their pride in their inability to marshall even the basic rudiments of an argument. The arrogance born of knowledge, or of claims to knowledge, is sad, but the arrogance born of wilful and publicly demonstrated ignorance is really pathetic. regards, an intellectual, and a toilet cleaner Pawan Durani wrote: > And the "intellectuals" will still have some argument................god > Bless India. > > > > On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News >> >>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's misfortune >>was that he was in uniform. >>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were waiting >>near >>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them to the >>airport. >>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four to >>five >>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing that >>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last thing he >>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. Hardly >>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a head >>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained silent >>as >>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a clockwise >>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into Srinagar's >>numerous back lanes. >>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to defend the >>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the >>agents >>of the 'enemy'. * >> >> >>*-- >>Aditya Raj Kaul >>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com >>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org >>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* >>_________________________________________ >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>Critiques & Collaborations >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>subscribe in the subject header. >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 18:45:29 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:45:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <46E9322E.4010300@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> <46E9322E.4010300@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709130615ref35fe9r937995a647a7c311@mail.gmail.com> Suddha : My mail was not directed to you unless you consider one among the defenders of terrorists. Partho : Nice to hear that your obligation to your country is limited to paying taxes. As for as your suggestion of me trying to learn is concerned , I pray to god that I should not be as learned as you are. And BTW why are you all so obsessed with defending yasin malik , if the terrorist does not matter to you ? On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear all, Dear ARKP, > > It seems to me that you guys are the people most attatched to Yasin > Malik on this list. I have rarely seen such undying affection or > devotion to Yasin Malik as demonstrated by you, repeatedly. Really, the > JKLF (Yasin Malik faction) should hire you as publicists. > > Whenever you have a problem, whenever your arguments are demonstrated as > hollow, whenever the discussion moves on towards things more intersting > than what you throw into the ring, you pull Yasin Malik out of your > little bag of tricks. As if he was some kind of protective talisman > behind whom you can shield your obvious inability to participate in a > discussion. > > In two successive mails addressed to Pawan Durani, I had categorically > stated my opposition to the use of violence, and also categorically > mentioned that if any charges are brought in the legally prescribed > manner against Yasin Malik, me, Pawan Durani, my father or Santa Claus > on suspicion of homicide then they (Yasin Malik, me, Pawan Durani, my > father and Santa Claus) should be required to stand a free and fair trial. > > I had said this while trying painstakingly to explain the meaning of the > phrase 'he, or any other' which I had used when on another occasion, > ARKP had brought out the effigy of Yasin Malik (yet again) to cover for > their defeated arguments. I cannot understand why, after this, the issue > of Yasin Malik refuses to go away. > > See my posts, > > 1. Re: [Reader-list] By R.J.Rummel, September 3, 2007 > 2. Re : [Reader-list] Reply To Shuddha (Yasin Sahibs Fan), September 4, > 2007 > > In the first, I say - "As for the deaths of Indian State and Armed > Forces Personnel. Let me make my position clear. I am not a votary of > pursuing politics by violence, no matter who does it. Not because I have > a moral position vis a vis violence, but because I believe that the > strategy of terror, no matter who pursues it, invariably leads to > secretive, un-accountable and un-democratic politics, which leads to > popular movements being corrupted and infiltrated by the very forces > that they are opposing. I think this has happenned in Kashmir, and it > happenned both because of the machinations of the Indian state and the > political immaturity of the pro Azadi 'tanzeems' in Jammu and Kashmir, > and in the Kashmiri diaspora." > > In the second post, I say "if anyone, whether it is Yasin Malik or > Santa Claus, or you, or me, or my father, that is what the "he or any > other person" in the above paragraph means (reference to a quotaion from > a fragement of my earlier post) - is found guilty of homicide > in a free and fair trial, they should be punished for it, with a prison > term if need be, as per the provisions of a criminal procedure code." > > I do not know how much clearer a position can be than this. And yet, > again, and again, and again, we see Pawan Durani bringing up the > allegation that there are poeple on this list (myself explicitly > included) who serve as apologists either for Yasin Malik or for anyone > else who has either committed or condoned the use of violence in Kashmir > > So the next time someone, anyone, in ARKP (though this type of bad > sniping does seem to be the particular forte of A and P) brings out the > effigy of Yasin Malik in any posting, dear readers, please understand > that it is a semaphore, a code that indicates that they are admitting > yet again that they are a bunch of losers, who refuse to learn any > lessons from their defeats. We can sympathise (at a stretch) with the > abjectness of that failure, but we cannot refuse to see it for what it is. > > I am also amused at the deliberate carping about the category of people > that are being loosely called 'intellectuals' on this list. I fail to > understand precisely what is wrong with being an 'intellectual' - with > being a person who works for a living with words, images, ideas and > concepts. Is it better to be a dentist, or a chef, or a traffic police > inspector, or a gardener, or a financial analyst than it is to be a > writer, a teacher, an artist, a philosopher, a librarian or a scientist? > > I see nothing wrong with being a dentist, or a chef, or a traffic > police inspector, or a gardener, or a financial analyst, and > consequently, I fail to see what is wrong with being what is loosely > called 'an intellectual'. Since when did the choice of your practice > mark you out as being the appropriate target of abuse. Would it make > sense, if I, or anyone else were to say on this list, "...and the > 'dentists' will still have some argument...........god bless India'. > > Is it someone's fault that they take care about how they write, or read, > or express an argument? Is it a mistake, an error, to be able to work > through the nuances of a statement, or an argument, to try and see > complexity, or to try and engage in a dialogue on the basis of a respect > for knowledge and the spirit of dialogue? > > I think it is far worse to see some people demonstrate their pride in > their inability to marshall even the basic rudiments of an argument. The > arrogance born of knowledge, or of claims to knowledge, is sad, but the > arrogance born of wilful and publicly demonstrated ignorance is really > pathetic. > > regards, > > an intellectual, and a toilet cleaner > > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > And the "intellectuals" will still have some argument................god > > Bless India. > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > >>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > >> > >>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > misfortune > >>was that he was in uniform. > >>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were waiting > >>near > >>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them to > the > >>airport. > >>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four to > >>five > >>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing > that > >>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last thing > he > >>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. > Hardly > >>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a head > >>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained > silent > >>as > >>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a clockwise > >>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into Srinagar's > >>numerous back lanes. > >>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to defend > the > >>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the > >>agents > >>of the 'enemy'. * > >> > >> > >>*-- > >>Aditya Raj Kaul > >>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > >>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > >>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > >>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > >>_________________________________________ > >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>Critiques & Collaborations > >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>subscribe in the subject header. > >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Sep 13 19:00:37 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:00:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709130506y1bfc6ffajcfa97f742f593771@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709130501j690701eaj5164bbc5a16c9e23@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709130506y1bfc6ffajcfa97f742f593771@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E93B7D.7020405@sarai.net> Pawan Durani wrote: > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point that a woman > is molested , they are prone to it." > Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural that women should be 'prone' to being molested. I personally think that there is a world of a difference between the estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces in a combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a woman. No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially one in uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a situation of armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair target. If they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed forces. A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face and deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman does not make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, women do not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the streets of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most cities in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni suggests they are. By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what Pawan Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of people who will naturally face molestation in any and every circumstance, they are in his words "prone to it". It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan Durani is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to the kind obviously, who (logically following through his argument) thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, because, they "are prone to it". I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. regards Shuddha > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > People like you have zero nationalism and negative intellectualism. > > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care even for the > martyrs of his country. > > > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have some >>questions >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a part of >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that they'll be >> targetted by militants >> >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point of view. >> >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post is not >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his mind >> and make him apologise. >> >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated people as >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we know >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs to be >>faced >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it by >>hate. >> >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in since >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to the US >> and Ireland >> >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what you're >>trying to say, >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should include >>the debate. >> >>Rgds, Partha >>.................... >> >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some argument................god >>>Bless India. >>> >>> >>> >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>> >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News >>>> >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's >>> >>>misfortune >>> >>>>was that he was in uniform. >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were waiting >>> >>>>near >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them to >>> >>>the >>> >>>>airport. >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four to >>>>five >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing >>> >>>that >>> >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last thing >>> >>>he >>> >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. >>> >>>Hardly >>> >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a head >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained >>> >>>silent >>> >>>>as >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a clockwise >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into Srinagar's >>>>numerous back lanes. >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to defend >>> >>>the >>> >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the >>>>agents >>>>of the 'enemy'. * >>>> >>>> >>>>*-- >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* >>>>_________________________________________ >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>Critiques & Collaborations >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>subscribe in the subject header. >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>>_________________________________________ >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>Critiques & Collaborations >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>subscribe in the subject header. >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >>-- >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) >>http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 20:45:58 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:45:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <46E9322E.4010300@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> <46E9322E.4010300@sarai.net> Message-ID: <32144e990709130815j47e3926s7cb4de0be45e1b6@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I must humbly accept that I'm not an intellectual. Sure i did my schooling and college but don't have any fancy alphabets after my name. However, as a new entrant to the list fail to understand how Yasin's quote justifies rape or blocking freedom of speech that is a core of the fundamental rights. If there's a movie you don't like, don't go. It's as simple as that. The movie bombs at the 'box office' as most people dislike it. So what's the big deal? What I miss here is the point being made by Pawan and others which is why I asked the reason behind the post (and the blessing). As a professional who works for a living, I presume that there is some logic to the points being raised in the post that need to be discussed - beyond the fact that Yasin didn't apologise which is something this list can't change since he isn't a member. As a simple person asking for the reason behind the post (and NOT multiple blessings) would like to get back to my first question - what's the case? Or is it that a mental block is transferring to a sexual block that is raising the issue of rape? In that scenario, Frued (or a live shrink) would be the right person to go to. If there's a larger connotation to the debate, wish he'd follow the cooon courtesy of mailing the full issue. Rgds, Partha PS: As a new entrant, niceto know a toilet cleaner is so IT enabled ;-) Vive le India if this is how far we've reached On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear all, Dear ARKP, > > It seems to me that you guys are the people most attatched to Yasin > Malik on this list. I have rarely seen such undying affection or > devotion to Yasin Malik as demonstrated by you, repeatedly. Really, the > JKLF (Yasin Malik faction) should hire you as publicists. > > Whenever you have a problem, whenever your arguments are demonstrated as > hollow, whenever the discussion moves on towards things more intersting > than what you throw into the ring, you pull Yasin Malik out of your > little bag of tricks. As if he was some kind of protective talisman > behind whom you can shield your obvious inability to participate in a > discussion. > > In two successive mails addressed to Pawan Durani, I had categorically > stated my opposition to the use of violence, and also categorically > mentioned that if any charges are brought in the legally prescribed > manner against Yasin Malik, me, Pawan Durani, my father or Santa Claus > on suspicion of homicide then they (Yasin Malik, me, Pawan Durani, my > father and Santa Claus) should be required to stand a free and fair trial. > > I had said this while trying painstakingly to explain the meaning of the > phrase 'he, or any other' which I had used when on another occasion, > ARKP had brought out the effigy of Yasin Malik (yet again) to cover for > their defeated arguments. I cannot understand why, after this, the issue > of Yasin Malik refuses to go away. > > See my posts, > > 1. Re: [Reader-list] By R.J.Rummel, September 3, 2007 > 2. Re : [Reader-list] Reply To Shuddha (Yasin Sahibs Fan), September 4, 2007 > > In the first, I say - "As for the deaths of Indian State and Armed > Forces Personnel. Let me make my position clear. I am not a votary of > pursuing politics by violence, no matter who does it. Not because I have > a moral position vis a vis violence, but because I believe that the > strategy of terror, no matter who pursues it, invariably leads to > secretive, un-accountable and un-democratic politics, which leads to > popular movements being corrupted and infiltrated by the very forces > that they are opposing. I think this has happenned in Kashmir, and it > happenned both because of the machinations of the Indian state and the > political immaturity of the pro Azadi 'tanzeems' in Jammu and Kashmir, > and in the Kashmiri diaspora." > > In the second post, I say "if anyone, whether it is Yasin Malik or > Santa Claus, or you, or me, or my father, that is what the "he or any > other person" in the above paragraph means (reference to a quotaion from > a fragement of my earlier post) - is found guilty of homicide > in a free and fair trial, they should be punished for it, with a prison > term if need be, as per the provisions of a criminal procedure code." > > I do not know how much clearer a position can be than this. And yet, > again, and again, and again, we see Pawan Durani bringing up the > allegation that there are poeple on this list (myself explicitly > included) who serve as apologists either for Yasin Malik or for anyone > else who has either committed or condoned the use of violence in Kashmir > > So the next time someone, anyone, in ARKP (though this type of bad > sniping does seem to be the particular forte of A and P) brings out the > effigy of Yasin Malik in any posting, dear readers, please understand > that it is a semaphore, a code that indicates that they are admitting > yet again that they are a bunch of losers, who refuse to learn any > lessons from their defeats. We can sympathise (at a stretch) with the > abjectness of that failure, but we cannot refuse to see it for what it is. > > I am also amused at the deliberate carping about the category of people > that are being loosely called 'intellectuals' on this list. I fail to > understand precisely what is wrong with being an 'intellectual' - with > being a person who works for a living with words, images, ideas and > concepts. Is it better to be a dentist, or a chef, or a traffic police > inspector, or a gardener, or a financial analyst than it is to be a > writer, a teacher, an artist, a philosopher, a librarian or a scientist? > > I see nothing wrong with being a dentist, or a chef, or a traffic > police inspector, or a gardener, or a financial analyst, and > consequently, I fail to see what is wrong with being what is loosely > called 'an intellectual'. Since when did the choice of your practice > mark you out as being the appropriate target of abuse. Would it make > sense, if I, or anyone else were to say on this list, "...and the > 'dentists' will still have some argument...........god bless India'. > > Is it someone's fault that they take care about how they write, or read, > or express an argument? Is it a mistake, an error, to be able to work > through the nuances of a statement, or an argument, to try and see > complexity, or to try and engage in a dialogue on the basis of a respect > for knowledge and the spirit of dialogue? > > I think it is far worse to see some people demonstrate their pride in > their inability to marshall even the basic rudiments of an argument. The > arrogance born of knowledge, or of claims to knowledge, is sad, but the > arrogance born of wilful and publicly demonstrated ignorance is really > pathetic. > > regards, > > an intellectual, and a toilet cleaner > > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > And the "intellectuals" will still have some argument................god > > Bless India. > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > >>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > >> > >>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's misfortune > >>was that he was in uniform. > >>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were waiting > >>near > >>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them to the > >>airport. > >>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four to > >>five > >>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing that > >>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last thing he > >>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. Hardly > >>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a head > >>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained silent > >>as > >>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a clockwise > >>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into Srinagar's > >>numerous back lanes. > >>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to defend the > >>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the > >>agents > >>of the 'enemy'. * > >> > >> > >>*-- > >>Aditya Raj Kaul > >>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > >>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > >>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > >>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > >>_________________________________________ > >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>Critiques & Collaborations > >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>subscribe in the subject header. > >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From theunderscoredhood at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 20:54:10 2007 From: theunderscoredhood at gmail.com (theunderscoredhood at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:24:10 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Adivasis of Gujarat brutally attacked... Message-ID: <00163600d1b5043a05ee1d19b6bf1ae@gmail.com> from the midst of more confusion.Received via Sebastian Devaraj, Bangalore Initiative for Peace. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 23:11:26 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:11:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <46E93B7D.7020405@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709130501j690701eaj5164bbc5a16c9e23@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709130506y1bfc6ffajcfa97f742f593771@mail.gmail.com> <46E93B7D.7020405@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709131041g378933d5xb2e684e81549df18@mail.gmail.com> Shuddha , Just for my own information , i would like to know which one are you ? Pawan On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point that a > woman > > is molested , they are prone to it." > > > > Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural that > women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > I personally think that there is a world of a difference between the > estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces in a > combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a woman. > > No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially one in > uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a situation of > armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair target. If > they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed forces. > > A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face and > deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman does not > make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, women do > not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the streets > of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most cities > in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni suggests > they are. > > By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what Pawan > Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of people > who will naturally face molestation in any and every circumstance, they > are in his words "prone to it". > > It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan Durani > is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > the kind obviously, who (logically following through his argument) > thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, > because, they "are prone to it". > > I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any > circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > > > People like you have zero nationalism and negative intellectualism. > > > > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care even for > the > > martyrs of his country. > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > >>Hi, > >> > >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have some > >>questions > >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? > >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a part of > >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be > >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that they'll be > >> targetted by militants > >> > >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point of > view. > >> > >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post is not > >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his mind > >> and make him apologise. > >> > >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated people as > >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we know > >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs to be > >>faced > >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it by > >>hate. > >> > >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in since > >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to the US > >> and Ireland > >> > >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what you're > >>trying to say, > >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should include > >>the debate. > >> > >>Rgds, Partha > >>.................... > >> > >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > argument................god > >>>Bless India. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >>> > >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > >>>> > >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > >>> > >>>misfortune > >>> > >>>>was that he was in uniform. > >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were waiting > >>> > >>>>near > >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them to > >>> > >>>the > >>> > >>>>airport. > >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four to > >>>>five > >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing > >>> > >>>that > >>> > >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last thing > >>> > >>>he > >>> > >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. > >>> > >>>Hardly > >>> > >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a head > >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained > >>> > >>>silent > >>> > >>>>as > >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a clockwise > >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into Srinagar's > >>>>numerous back lanes. > >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to defend > >>> > >>>the > >>> > >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the > >>>>agents > >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>*-- > >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > >>>>_________________________________________ > >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >>>_________________________________________ > >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>Critiques & Collaborations > >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > >>http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 23:18:59 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:18:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <46E93B7D.7020405@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709130501j690701eaj5164bbc5a16c9e23@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709130506y1bfc6ffajcfa97f742f593771@mail.gmail.com> <46E93B7D.7020405@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709131048x197470adib46406a45bf278b6@mail.gmail.com> Saddha Devi, You have a basic problem with patriotism. Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free man ? Is it natural that even after so many years the charges against a terrorist has not been framed ? Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with "intellectuals" leading it? If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand how safe the Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? Pawan On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point that a > woman > > is molested , they are prone to it." > > > > Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural that > women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > I personally think that there is a world of a difference between the > estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces in a > combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a woman. > > No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially one in > uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a situation of > armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair target. If > they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed forces. > > A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face and > deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman does not > make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, women do > not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the streets > of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most cities > in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni suggests > they are. > > By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what Pawan > Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of people > who will naturally face molestation in any and every circumstance, they > are in his words "prone to it". > > It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan Durani > is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > the kind obviously, who (logically following through his argument) > thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, > because, they "are prone to it". > > I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any > circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > > > People like you have zero nationalism and negative intellectualism. > > > > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care even for > the > > martyrs of his country. > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > >>Hi, > >> > >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have some > >>questions > >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? > >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a part of > >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be > >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that they'll be > >> targetted by militants > >> > >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point of > view. > >> > >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post is not > >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his mind > >> and make him apologise. > >> > >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated people as > >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we know > >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs to be > >>faced > >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it by > >>hate. > >> > >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in since > >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to the US > >> and Ireland > >> > >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what you're > >>trying to say, > >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should include > >>the debate. > >> > >>Rgds, Partha > >>.................... > >> > >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > argument................god > >>>Bless India. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >>> > >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > >>>> > >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > >>> > >>>misfortune > >>> > >>>>was that he was in uniform. > >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were waiting > >>> > >>>>near > >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them to > >>> > >>>the > >>> > >>>>airport. > >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four to > >>>>five > >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing > >>> > >>>that > >>> > >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last thing > >>> > >>>he > >>> > >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. > >>> > >>>Hardly > >>> > >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a head > >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained > >>> > >>>silent > >>> > >>>>as > >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a clockwise > >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into Srinagar's > >>>>numerous back lanes. > >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to defend > >>> > >>>the > >>> > >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the > >>>>agents > >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>*-- > >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > >>>>_________________________________________ > >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >>>_________________________________________ > >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>Critiques & Collaborations > >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > >>http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 23:59:55 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:59:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Of ingrates and hypocrites In-Reply-To: <47e122a70709110910l451b0226w34c474b26a49de7b@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70709080514s41c37d13q317bcfebe4ae816c@mail.gmail.com> <598645.89322.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70709110910l451b0226w34c474b26a49de7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70709131129h55eb6f28ye519bcf91e12bce4@mail.gmail.com> Kshmendra writes : 1. You want to escape Inder. You cannot. Wherever you go, it will be the Nation that will rule your life and through it's Laws determine your extent of movement, your mode of movement, where you can live, the kind of residence you can make, the quality of the air you breathe, the quality of the food you eat, quality of the medicines you get etc etc etc. Inder you might escape 'This Nation' but you can only escape to 'Another Nation'. That one too will have it's regulatory Laws and that one too will have it's problems. Show me the Utopia other than the one where the mind can travel. Inder, even the limits of your 'thinking' are regulated by the Laws of the Nation. Controls over subliminal messaging and drugging under legally enforced psychiatric interventions are just two examples. In fact Inder, apart from a handful of Nations, in most other places some of your own "Performance Art" will be totally unacceptable. Maybe not sent to the gallows, but you would certainly be rotting behind prison bars or sent for psychiatric treatment. Many countries automatically choose themselves as examples where some of your kind of "Performance Art" will bring you incarceration. At least on that score Inder be a wee bit thankful. Indersalim replies : Dear Kshmendra, I prefer not to answer the above in details. Unwittingly you have given answer to all the questions raised by you. When a artist like Chandermohan should be thankful in Gujarat that he is not sent to gallows, but only imprisoned, then where is the need to answer. I already, mentioned that our great Nation ' India' is brimming like people like you, but you took it too personal. It is about the growing intolerance. Creative people are at your mercy. Just read your letter again, and see who is writing to whom. You are writing to an artist ( you see me an artist ) and artists need to escape, to imagine, to feel free, and be eccentric and be even psychic patients. You have not been stung by creative bug, perhaps. But that is another debate. Either you are too young, or have no idea of what it takes to make an artist, a performance artist, a poet, a musician. You are not even, that "sar faroshie ki tamana abb hamaray dil main hai " so, forget about the debate on the true lovers of Nation Sate. But what I am interested in is the debate. About Nation state, Kshmendra Writes: 9. All your criticisms about India are genuine. The "state of the Nation" tortures me as much as it tortures you. The difference again is in our attitudes. You want to escape the Nation, I want to rectify the Nation. Then there are some who want to destroy it or aid those who seek to destroy it. Indersalim replies: Now see, Mr. Kshmendra, where you go wrong. Just few lines above, you point out that we can not even breathe without the Nation's will. But few lines later you point out that the State of Nation torture you. So how come that you worship Ravana who abducts Sita Mata of your Nation Sate. The fact is that India neither tortures you, nor it is imposing any unpleasant Laws on you, because you understand the language of Power quite well and you want to be part of it. So, who is vulnerable. You or Me ? But still I dare. Hope you know that a cartoonist in Iran has been Imprisoned? No, not for imitating Danish Cartoons, but for lampooning the men at the helm. You, want that same treatment for artists here. Is not that a fact. During Emergency, even Indira Gandhi, was a more liberal than you. I remember, late M.L. Saqi once told me that once Buddhists in Kashmir were once too intoxicated with power and they would go to the extent of killing the opponent if he happens to be outwitted in a discourse. Imagine, how we treat an artist like Hussain. Like Shuddha, I too don't see Hussain as a genius with a brush, but he deserves a space in India, a respectable space, after all he is not a criminal, nor is he supporting Kashmir Freedom Movement. Or, you imagine. Kshmenrdra Writes : 10. Coming to Kashmir. I completely agree with your statement "The Nation State should understand its subjects, from all perspectives, and India has miserably failed in Kashmir.......Kashmir issue is/was about ethics". Inder salim replies : Actually you disagree with my statement, because you have not written anything on Kashmir conflict. I guess, from class 8th or so in my school I know that Kashmir is a 'bone of contention between India and Pakistan'. We all know, this is official stand of both the countries as well. Now, for Allah and Ishwar's sake, please describe the nature of this bone. Certainly, two dogs are fighting for a piece of bone i.e. Kashmir, and those who are living like worms/ants inside the bone are destined to suffer. Is that what you want to say? Now, suddenly, few ( first 5) ants in 1990 got wings and learned how to bite the dog who almost kept the bone in his mouth for the last 50 years. The big dog ( Indian ) is angry, because its nature is such, and it naturally began crushing these rebellious ants in random. This resulted in a big chaos. As it happens in the animal Kingdom also, there was a specie of ants within the Khalq of ants who were friendly to this particular dog. They had no choice but to escape the wrath of Majority of ants. Now some of ants, outside the bone, lean to bark like dogs, much to the amusement of the big dog. (Please don't take it personal, it is just like a cartoon, and I hope it is still not Iran ) . Now, if you suggest me that Kashmir issue will die its own death one day, because it is too complex, I may believe even, but you have to convince the majority of people living there. Kashmiri Pandits are likely not to return, please agree with me. So what is wrong if suddenly India Pakistan will sit with Yasin Malik and his Huriyat colleagues and sort out the problem. Ah, now here you will say that Kashmiri Pandits deserve a chair to be part of that final discussion. No sir, you have theoretically given up that claim, because you have already merged your idea of Nation State with that of Indian. Or, was there any different Kashmiri Pandit idea of a Kashmiri Nation State while being in Kashmir ? No, never, They were always part and parcel of that Nation which declared, time and again, the Kashmir territory as unresolved. Now, if you and your Nation State don't want to resolve, then there are some Sar Farosh who will compel you to come to the table. Now, of course, you are with the powerful, and you always feel winning. That is where ' ethics' begins. I forwarded a little of Giorgio Agamben to you on purpose, because it want to convey the gravity of the situation. Now take this " When the rights of man are no longer the rights of the citizen, then he is truly sacred, in the sense that this term had in archaic Roman law: destined to die" Imagine, 1-2 million people died in 1947 partition. Who is responsible. When Pakistani Army massacred thousands and thousands in Bangladesh where was the state? When Tutusi and Hutu killed each other where was the state? It happened in Gujarat, it happened in Kashmir. Tell me what is state. It is nothing by army, guns, tanks and bombs and nuclear bombs besides no accountablility. When we learn to talk a little about Socrates, who knew nothing other than the ethics, its endless limits, to fashion the idea of a state, we are transported to a new-new world. He was every thing, sacred, profane, eros, empirical, spiritual, friend, lover and philosopher. He had the chance to escape the prison, but he stayed, because his idea of ' know they self' was impossible to imagine without the idea of state. This is in comparison to Aristotle, who fled Athens when things were tough. There is an element of ' hysterical' to his willingness of drinking the Hemlok, but you also comes under ' performance art ' and as I see from you letter to me, you are quite averse genera like that. The point in the case here is that the State has a tendency to lapse into a 'state of frigidity'. And sooner it becomes arrogant and executes a hero like Donton Marat in France, Sufi Sarmad in India or Mansoor Hallaj in Iran. There are many heroes who contributed to the idea of state. The irony is that who sit on the throne of power always quote the sacrificed while order executions. Even Ashoka the great is believed to have ordered some death sentences during the height of his Buddhist fame. Do you want to be part of that power, if so, then you are on the right path, sir. You know, this seat of power issued fatwa against the poet Abdul Ahad Zargar for writing a poem. I hope you know that, you will certainly criticize that Fatwa, but suddenly you will justify the action against an artists for example, Hussain. I don't know you, you make sharp turns, which is confusing. May be you also criticize the violence of Bajrang Dal, but how I will understand the opening lines of your letter, which leave no space for artists like me, even to breathe. Yesterday, I saw one more documentary film by Sara Singh at IIC. I am sure if you had been there, you would have protested like you did during Sanjay Kak's JesjhneAzadi. There was candid interview with Hashim Qurashee, besides many other interviews by people from Partition time. He was saying that people of Kashmir are caught between three guns. He expressed anguish that Kashmiris are living dogs life and what they have done to deserve all this. The film was multi layered covering India Pakistan conflict and the pain of Partition. What interested me most is that it was punctuated with folk music of Kutch, Punjab, and Kashmir, as Sanjay Kak's was with poetry or Bandh theatre. In short the historical narrative was given a break to speak itself while singing the earth, its songs, its past. How come, we have never given any space to discourses that include the music. Simple music. Is our vocabulary more superior than the notes of our shared folk song. I guess no. This is another debate. With regards and love to all Inder salim On 9/11/07, inder salim wrote: > dear Mr. Kshmendra > > i cut paste the following by Giorgio Agamben. i will come back to u > after some time. > all this effort in the end is to bring some shower of love upon all the us.... > > 1. In 1943, in a small jewish periodical, The Menorah Journal, Hannah > Arendt published an article titled "We Refugees." In this brief but > important essay, after sketching a polemical portrait of Mr. Cohn, the > assimilated Jew who had been 150 percent German, 150 percent Viennese, > and 150 percent French but finally realizes bitterly that "on ne > parvient pas deux fois," Arendt overturns the condition of refugee and > person without a country - in which she herself was living - in order > to propose this condition as the paradigm of a new historical > consciousness. The refugee who has lost all rights, yet stops wanting > to be assimilated at any cost to a new national identity so as to > contemplate his condition lucidly, receives, in exchange for certain > unpopularity, an inestimable advantage: "For him history is no longer > a closed book, and politics ceases to be the privilege of the > Gentiles. He knows that the banishment of the Jewish people in Europe > was followed immediately by that of the majority of the European > peoples. Refugees expelled from one country to the next represent the > avant-garde of their people." > > It is worth reflecting on the sense of this analysis, which today, > precisely fifty years later, has not lost any of its currency. Not > only does the problem arise with the same urgency, both in Europe and > elsewhere, but also, in the context of the inexorable decline of the > nation-state and the general corrosion of traditional legal-political > categories, the refugee is perhaps the only imaginable figure of the > people in our day. At least until the process of the dissolution of > the nation-state and its sovereignty has come to an end, the refugee > is the sole category in which it is possible today to perceive the > forms and limits of a political community to come. Indeed, it may be > that if we want to be equal to the absolutely novel tasks that face > us, we will have to abandon without misgivings the basic concepts in > which we have represented political subjects up to now (man and > citizen with their rights, but also the sovereign people, the worker, > etc.) and to reconstruct our political philosophy beginning with this > unique figure. > > 2. The first appearance of refugees as a mass phenomenon occurred at > the end of World War I, when the collapse of the Russian, > Austro-Hungarian, and Ottoman empires, and the new order created by > the peace treaties, profoundly upset the demographic and territorial > structure of Central and Eastern Europe. In just a short time, a > million and a half White Russians, seven hundred thousand Armenians, > five hundred thousand Bulgarians, a million Greeks, and hundreds of > thousands of Germans, Hungarians, and Romanians left their countries > and moved elsewhere. To these masses in motion should be added the > explosive situation determined by the fact that in the new states > created by the peace treaties on the model of the nation-state (for > example, in Yugoslavia and in Czechoslovakia), some 30 percent of the > populations comprised minorities that had to be protected through a > series of international treaties (the so-called Minority Treaties), > which very often remained a dead letter. A few years later, the racial > laws in Germany and the Civil War in Spain disseminated a new and > substantial contingent of refugees throughout Europe. > > We are accustomed to distinguishing between stateless persons and > refugees, but this distinction, now as then, is not as simple as it > might at first glance appear. From the beginning, many refugees who > technically were not stateless preferred to become so rather than to > return to their homeland (this is the case of Polish and Romanian Jews > who were in France or Germany at the end of the war, or today of > victims of political persecution as well as of those for whom > returning to their homeland would mean the impossibility of survival). > On the other hand, the Russian, Armenian and Hungarian refugees were > promptly denationalized by the new Soviet or Turkish governments, etc. > It is important to note that starting with the period of World War I, > many European states began to introduce laws which permitted their own > citizens to be denaturalized and denationalized. The first was France, > in 1915, with regard to naturalized citizens of "enemy" origins; in > 1922 the example was followed by Belgium, which revoked the > naturalization of citizens who had committed "anti-national" acts > during the war; in 1926 the Fascist regime in Italy passed a similar > law concerning citizens who had shown themselves to be "unworthy of > Italian citizenship"; in 1933 it was Austria's turn, and so forth, > until in 1935 the Nuremberg Laws divided German citizens into full > citizens and citizens without political rights. These laws - and the > mass statelessness that resulted - mark a decisive turning point in > the life of the modern nation-state and its definitive emancipation > from the naive notions of "people" and "citizen." > > This is not the place to review the history of the various > international commissions through which the states, the League of > Nations, and later, the United Nations stempted to deal with the > problem of refugees - from the Nansen Bureau for Russian and Armenian > refugees (1921), to the High Commission for Refugees from Germany > (1936), the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees (1938), and the > International Refugee Organization of the United Nations (1946), up to > the present High Commission for Refugees (1951) - whose activity, > according to its statute, has only a "humanitarian and social," not > political, character. The basic point is that every time refugees no > longer represent individual cases but rather a mass phenomenon (as > happened between the two wars, and has happened again now), both these > organizations and the single states have proven, despite the solemn > evocations of the inalienable rights of man, to be absolutely > incapable not only of resolving the problem but also simply of dealing > with it adequately. In this way the entire ques- tion was transferred > into the hands of the police and of humanitarian organizations. > > 3. The reasons for this impotence lie not only in the selfishness and > blindness of bureaucratic machines, but in the basic notions > themselves that regulate the inscription of the native (that is, of > life) in the legal order of the nation-state. Hannah Arendt titled > chapter 5 of her book Imperialism, dedicated to the problem of > refugees, "The Decline of the Nation-State and the End of the Rights > of Man." This formulation - which inextricably links the fates of the > rights of man and the modern national state, such that the end of the > latter necessarily implies the obsolescence of the former - should be > taken seriously. The paradox here is that precisely the figure that > should have incarnated the rights of man par excellence, the refugee, > constitutes instead the radical crisis of this concept. "The concept > of the Rights of man," Arendt writes, "based on the supposed existence > of a human being as such, collapsed in ruins as soon as those who > professed it found themselves for the first time before men who had > truly lost every other specific quality and connection except for the > mere fact of being humans." In the nation-state system, the so-called > sacred and inalienable rights of man prove to be completely > unprotected at the very moment it is no longer possible to > characterize them as rights of the citizens of a state. This is > implicit, if one thinks about it, in the ambiguity of the very title > of the Declaration of 1789, Declaration des droits de I'homme et du > citoyen, in which it is unclear whether the two terms name two > realities, or whether instead they form a hendiadys, in which the > second term is, in reality, already contained in the first. > > That there is no autonomous space within the political order of the > nation-state for something like the pure man in himself is evident at > least in the fact that, even in the best of cases, the status of the > refugee is always considered a temporary condition that should lead > either to naturalization or to repatriation. A permanent status of man > in himself is inconceivable for the law of the nation-state. > > 4. It is time to stop looking at the Declarations of Rights from 1789 > to the present as if they were proclamations of eternal, metajuridical > values that bind legislators to respect them, and to consider them > instead according to their real function in the modern state. In fact, > the Rights of Man represent above all the original figure of the > inscription of bare natural life in the legal-political order of the > nation-state. That bare life (the human creature) which in the ancien > regime belonged to God, and in the classical world was clearly > distinct (as zoe) from political life (bios), now takes center stage > in the state's concerns and becomes, so to speak, its terrestrial > foundation. Nation-state means a state that makes nativity or birth > (that is, of the bare human life) the foundation of its own > sovereignty. This is the (not even very obscure) sense of the first > three articles of the Declaration of 1789: only because it wrote the > native element into the core of any political association (arts. 1 and > 2) could it firmly tie (in art. 3) the principle of sovereignty to the > nation (in accordance with its etymon, natio originally meant simply > "birth"). The fiction implicit here is that birth immediately becomes > nation, such that there can be no distinction between the two moments. > Rights, that is, are attributable to man only in the degree to which > he is the immediately vanishing presupposition (indeed, he must never > appear simply as man) of the citizen. > > 5. If in the system of the nation-state the refugee represents such a > disquieting element, it is above all because by breaking up the > identity between man and citizen, between nativity and nationality, > the refugee throws into crisis the original fiction of sovereignty. > Single exceptions to this principle have always existed, of course; > the novelty of our era, which threatens the very foundations of the > nation-state, is that growing portions of humanity can no longer be > represented within it. For this reason - that is, inasmuch as the > refugee unhinges the old trinity of state/nation/territory - this > apparently marginal figure deserves rather to be considered the > central figure of our political history. It would be well not to > forget that the first camps in Europe were built as places to control > refugees, and that the progression - internment camps, concentration > camps, extermination camps - represents a perfectly real filiation. > One of the few rules the Nazis faithfully observed in the course of > the "final solution" was that only after the Jews and gypsies were > completely denationalized (even of that second-class citizenship that > belonged to them after the Nuremberg laws) could they be sent to the > extermination camps. When the rights of man are no longer the rights > of the citizen, then he is truly sacred, in the sense that this term > had in archaic Roman law: destined to die. > > 6. It is necessary resolutely to separate the concept of the refugee > from that of the "Rights of man," and to cease considering the right > of asylum (which in any case is being drastically restricted in the > legislation of the European states) as the conceptual category in > which the phenomenon should be impressed (a glance at the recent Test > sul diritto d'asilo by A. Heller shows that today this can lead only > to nauseating confusion). The refugee should be considered for what he > is, that is, nothing less than a border concept that radically calls > into question the principles of the nation-state and, at the same > time, helps clear the field for a no-longer-delayable renewal of > categories. In the meantime, the phenomenon of so-called illegal > immigration into the countries of the European Community has assumed > (and will increasingly assume in coming years, with a foreseen 20 > million immigrants from the countries of central Europe) features and > proportions such as to fully justify this revolution in perspective. > What the industrialized states are faced with today is a permanently > resident mass of noncitizens, who neither can be nor want to be > naturalized or repatriated. Often these noncitizens have a nationality > of origin, but inasmuch as they prefer not to make use of their > state's protection they are, like refugees, "stateless de facto" For > these noncitizen residents, T. Hammar created the neologism denizens, > which has the merit of showing that the concept citizen is no longer > adequate to describe the sociopolitical reality of modern states. On > the other hand, citizens of the advanced industrialized states (both > in the United States and in Europe) manifest, by their growing > desertion of the codified instances of political participation, an > evident tendency to transform themselves into denizens, into > conformity with the well-known principle that substantial assimilation > in the presence of formal differences exasperates hatred and > intolerance, xenophobic reactions and defensive mobilizations will > increase. > > 7. Before the extermination camps are reopened in Europe (which is > already starting to happen), nation-states must find the courage to > call into question the very principle of the inscription of nativity > and the trinity of state/nation/territory which is based on it. It is > sufficient here to suggest one possible direction. As is well known, > one of the options considered for the problem of Jerusalem is that it > become the capital, contemporaneously and without territorial > divisions, of two different states. The paradoxical condition of > reciprocal extraterritoriality (or, better, aterritoriality) that this > would imply could be generalized as a model of new international > relations. Instead of two national states separated by uncertain and > threatening boundaries, one could imagine two political communities > dwelling in the same region and in exodus one into the other, divided > from each other by a series of reciprocal extraterritorialities, in > which the guiding concept would no longer be the ius of the citizen, > but rather the refugium of the individual. In a similar sense, we > could look to Europe not as an impossible "Europe of nations," whose > catastrophic results can already be perceived in the short term, but > as an aterritorial or extraterritorial space in which all the > residents of the European states (citizens and noncitizens) would be > in a position of exodus or refuge, and the status of European would > mean the citizen's being-in-exodus (obviously also immobile). The > European space would thus represent an unbridgeable gap between birth > and nation, in which the old concept of people (which, as is well > known, is always a minority) could again find a political sense by > decisively opposing the concept of nation (which until now has unduly > usurped it). > > This space would not coincide with any homogeneous national territory, > nor with their topographical sum, but would act on these territories, > making holes in them and dividing them topologically like in a Leiden > jar or in a Moebius strip, where exterior and interior are > indeterminate. In this new space, the European cities, entering into a > relationship of reciprocal extraterritoriality, would rediscover their > ancient vocation as cities of the world. Today, in a sort of > no-man's-land between Lebanon and Israel, there are four hundred and > twenty-five Palestinians who were expelled by the state of Israel. > According to Hannah Arendt's suggestion, these men constitute "the > avant-garde of their people." But this does not necessarily or only > mean that they might form the original nucleus of a future national > state, which would probably resolve the Palestinian problem just as > inadequately as Israel has resolved the Jewish question. Rather, the > no-man's-land where they have found refuge has retroacted on the > territory of the state of Israel, making holes in it and altering it > in such a way that the image of that snow-covered hill has become more > an internal part of that territory than any other region of Heretz > Israel. It is only in a land where the spaces of states will have been > perforated and topologically deformed, and the citizen will have > learned to acknowledge the refugee that he himself is, that man's > political survival today is imaginable. > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Sep 14 00:10:56 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:10:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Coprolites and Regurgitaliths Message-ID: <46E98438.7030506@sarai.net> Dear Zainab, Thank you for your frank statement about the security you feel in my company. In the gender identity that I seem to be rapidly in the process of acquiring on this list, I also feel very secure and safe in yours. Especially because of the nature of things that I now understand all women are 'prone to'. You are right Zainab, there is a class of fecal matter and other related materials that are very hard to clean. As hard working women, especially janitors and sanitation workers, and unpaid housewives and other partners all over the world who have had to clean up after bowls streaked by careless men know, some stains are really stubborn. But some deposits (and their depositors) are the true champions in the matter of adhesion. No cleaning fluid known to man, woman or anything tending towards either gender pole, can seem to get rid of them. I assume you know about Coprolites and Regurgitaliths. But just so that our murky list can have its brief moment of mujun, let me edify you all. [Coprolite –noun a stony mass consisting of fossilized fecal matter. Regurgitaliths -noun fossilised remains of stomach contents that has been regurgitated by an animal. They are trace fossils and can be subdivided into ichnotaxa. Regurgitaliths might provide useful information on the diet of the animal, but are difficult to relate to any particular species.] I have of course, shamelessly and wantonly lifted the above definitions from well known online encyclopaeidae and lexical resources, where I repair after even I have had one Coprolite too many hurled in my direction. Just for a moment of temporary respite for my exhausted toilet cleaning soul.Some toilet cleaners have cigarette breaks, I have a wikipedia break. You know what I mean. Do you, does anyone, think there is an extra strong, industrial quality, fossil crunching variety of Harpic? If anyone does, please do let me know, I remain, yours in domestic service, and in paleontology Shuddha, or was it Saddha, (too modest to add Devi to the name) From swadhin_sen at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 00:40:59 2007 From: swadhin_sen at yahoo.com (Swadhin Sen) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai Message-ID: <287336.83109.qm@web52202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Madhumita First I would like to apologize if I have been less amicable. That was not deliberate; The points I would like to raise on the basis of your post is as follows: Thank you for answering my question -- as to whether starting with a linguistic unit of reference ('Bangla') works in harmful ways to erase important differences (of history, state formations, etc) -- and your answer seems to be an unambiguous yes (that such a move is harmful). Please notice, however, when i speak of 'erasing differences' i do not assume that to be a good thing or a bad thing -- and it does hurt my feelings to have liberalism and the 'erasure of differences' attributed to me! That's not my project, my sentiments, or contained in anything I wrote. - I never said that ‘a linguistic unit of reference works in harmful ways to erase important differences’. Therefore, there was/is no ‘an unambiguous yes’. Rather ambiguity is essential and central to some of the core arguments. My point was simply to hint at the complexities in answering any question regarding language, representation and differences. The notion of state came as an example of one of the most powerful conditions of our existence. I was also against any homogenized notion of ‘Bangla’ (as language, as culture or as identity). I think that the dominating discourses in West Bengal, India takes an essentialized and homogenized narrative of ‘Bangla’. More importantly, language and culture are conceptualized in these narratives in ways as if they are exchangeable. - I am really sorry to offend you by attributing liberalism. And I am also very happy to know that you have been offended. Because, it has made your political position overt to me. - Most importantly, my point was not on ‘erasing differences’. Rather, it was on the ways and means of creating and erasing differences and on the inequality of power in construction and/or destruction of the differences (be it statist, national or linguistic). For example, India and Bangladesh will never be (and never was) in equal position to act as agents in linguistic or any other forms of exchange and translation. As consumers of Hindi movies, detergents, fairness creams with mediation of Shahrukh Khan, Rozgere Ginni or Barisaler Bar, Kolkatar kane on Bangla TV channels of Kolkata and even, Desh or other periodicals, ‘we’ have been subject of various norms and processes which have constructed some new differences in place of the older ones while retaining and reproducing many. - I would like to emphasize on the inequality in languages and states, and also the problematics of the liberal ideals of ‘freedom of speech’, ‘free thinking’ and self constituted autonomous self which the globalized capital and US-Eng. (and India indeed in relation to us) Imperialism renders less and less feasible. We all choose starting points for our work -- some are more productive and some are more problematic. The tendency to focus always on the state is something which i think has its own limitations; when i posted to the list about Bangla, i was asking, what are the effects of taking a linguistic unit as a starting point of inquiry, instead of always starting with a state-based delineation? Which is not (and never -- hence my thoughts on the complexity of South Asian language categories) to say that language can be separated from geopolitical realities -- but that one has to choose somewhere to start. Keeping Indocentricism and geopolitics in mind, how does a cultural project work against them, where does one begin? - I think I have been a little bit misunderstood in this regard. I do not take ‘state’ as a a priory condition. I wanted to point at the genealogy of the formation of modern state and the other categories implicated on it as one of the most crucial and foundational aspect to be elaborated upon for any project (on language) in India and Bangladesh. Yes, linguistic unit could be an affective frame of reference to begin with. However, given the pastiches of theoretical discourses and considering the politics of academy and disciplines in the west for a non-westerners, I always remain very critical about my theoretical and political frameworks. I appreciate your endeveurs with such a project. The Bangla material has allowed me to think about nation-formations (always an imaginary identification and conception, as you point out) that are not exactly coextensive with the state -- both in terms of Bengali identity within India, which engages with governmentality at a non-national level, and in terms of any/all cultural imaginings of something like a single 'Bongodesh' (I realize it looks funny in Roman script), which tend to work around or beyond nation-state boundaries. My hope is not to fall on one side or another on the question of WestBengal/Bangladesh distinctions, but to chew on those differences for what they reveal -- about cultural imaginaries, nations, states, and those of us who work on them. As to whether such non-partiality is possible, i guess i'll find out when i finish.... - I am really overwhelmed to hear that. I am not an authority on this topic. As an archaeologist from a non-western (and non-Indian) country, the sketchy thoughts and points that I have gained through my works and little experiences have been posted in these letters. As for the availability of materials, which is always conditioned by circumstances well beyond one's control, that is a problem i am getting to know quite well! Suggestions are always welcome as to how to deal with the question. - It will be my pleasure to supply you any material from Bangladesh, if you need. Yours, Swadhin Swadhin Sen Archaeologist & Assistant Professor Department of Archaeology Jahangirnagar University Savar, Dhaka Bangladesh Ph. 88 01720196176 (mobile) ----- Original Message ---- From: Madhumita Lahiri To: Swadhin Sen Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Naeem Mohaiemen Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 1:56:40 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai Dear Swadhin, I am not making a liberal proclamation. Perhaps the tone on this listserv could be a bit more amicable and less antagonistic; it would certainly make me more comfortable engaging in it! Thank you for answering my question -- as to whether starting with a linguistic unit of reference ('Bangla') works in harmful ways to erase important differences (of history, state formations, etc) -- and your answer seems to be an unambiguous yes (that such a move is harmful). Please notice, however, when i speak of 'erasing differences' i do not assume that to be a good thing or a bad thing -- and it does hurt my feelings to have liberalism and the 'erasure of differences' attributed to me! That's not my project, my sentiments, or contained in anything I wrote. We all choose starting points for our work -- some are more productive and some are more problematic. The tendency to focus always on the state is something which i think has its own limitations; when i posted to the list about Bangla, i was asking, what are the effects of taking a linguistic unit as a starting point of inquiry, instead of always starting with a state-based delineation? Which is not (and never -- hence my thoughts on the complexity of South Asian language categories) to say that language can be separated from geopolitical realities -- but that one has to choose somewhere to start. Keeping Indocentricism and geopolitics in mind, how does a cultural project work against them, where does one begin? The Bangla material has allowed me to think about nation-formations (always an imaginary identification and conception, as you point out) that are not exactly coextensive with the state -- both in terms of Bengali identity within India, which engages with governmentality at a non-national level, and in terms of any/all cultural imaginings of something like a single 'Bongodesh' (I realize it looks funny in Roman script), which tend to work around or beyond nation-state boundaries. My hope is not to fall on one side or another on the question of WestBengal/Bangladesh distinctions, but to chew on those differences for what they reveal -- about cultural imaginaries, nations, states, and those of us who work on them. As to whether such non-partiality is possible, i guess i'll find out when i finish.... As for the availability of materials, which is always conditioned by circumstances well beyond one's control, that is a problem i am getting to know quite well! Suggestions are always welcome as to how to deal with the question. Yours, Madhumita On 9/12/07, Swadhin Sen wrote: Dear Madhumita Although your mail addressed both me and Naeem, my personal sketchy remarks on your questions are as follows: BUT, the question is: To what extent do you feel that it is a valid move to (claim to) work in/on/about 'Bangla,' given that the project will tilt towards Indian films? Does the claiming of a linguistic category end up erasing important geopolitical and historical differences -- or does it work usefully against the seemingly pervasive insistence on state-based distinctions, which are only 60 years old in our context? - I do not endorse the position which assumes that 'linguistic categories' could be conceptually separated from 'geopolitical and historical' differences. I am skeptical about success of your intention to 'work in linguistic unit' (and not primarily geopolitical ones). I think the 'linguistic units' are enmeshed into 'geopolitical ones'. It does not matter whether our state based distinctions are 60 years old or not. Because, even before the partition, there were variations in the languages of West and the East (Now Bangladesh). I want to view language as a representative system in which question of power and authority are crucial for cultural and political transactions and translation. The variations of dialects of Bangladesh are stereotyped, homogenized and distorted in mainstream films and electronic media of West Bengal. Bhanu Bandopadhaya was pioneer in the sarcastic and comical representation of the dialect of East Bengal or East Pakisthan or present Bangladesh. The continuation of the same practice is common in Taliwood films and Soaps & variety shows in E-media of Kolkata. - The question of whether a linguistic category end up erasing… differences' is not very interesting for me. Rather I am interested to question the conditions that destroy older categories and construct newer ones for legitimizing various ways and means of domination and control. Most notably, I think, the parties (or agents) involved with these reconfiguration processes are unequal in their power to borrow, insert and translate. 'State' (more precisely modern state) act as a universal condition in these unequal exchanges where 'we' (and you) cannot act as autonomous and sovereign subject (as it is usually taken for granted in liberal ideals). - Now if I take India and Bangladesh (or west Bengal and Bangladesh) for example we may find that while we the Banglaeshis are optionless consumers of the film and media representations from Hindi and Bangla (kolkata version) domain, the people from the other part of the boundary are not. The statist conditions controlled by various legal and juridical and as well as ideological apparatuses do not give us (and you) any other options to choose from. You can't see the mainstream films and visual narratives produced in different mediums of Bangladesh. Your vision and horizons of arguments, thus, are subjected by inequality where we are active only in the selection from those which we are permitted to do. - I contend that your question regarding the validity of working on/about Bangla films should be rethought from the above problematization. - The inequality is also applicable within a state also. For example, in Bangladesh the ethnic nations (not tribes, or ethnic minorities) are subjected to the same statist and nationalistic processes of reconfigurations. They are bound to speak Bangla, but we are not bound to speak Chakma, Shaotali, Rakhain and many other languages. - From a predominantly liberal terrain, we may optimistically believe in and call for the erasure of differences. But the complexly articulated state (and multicorporate) apparatus (from education sector to Job Market, from agricultural products to coca-cola) constructs newer differences and boundaries. Under these circumstances, I am not very much interested in some sort of liberal proclamation of erasing differences among languages, cultures and states. I am more hopeful about the critique of the formation differences. Interestingly, the affairs with Tasleema Nasreen can also be viewed in the framework of the inequality. I think Naeem's points on Taslema were not taken into proper theoretical and political account by the members who responded with a predominant liberal world view of everything. I will try to address the issues in another mail. And what is one to do with the reality that South Asian language boundaries,somewhat like South Asian regional boundaries, are constantly shifting and responding to political imperatives, as well? (The Hindi/Urdu wallahs certainly know this one well!) - I hope to touch upon this part of question in future. To comment briefly, the boundaries are being reconfigured and redefined (as I have argued above) off course. Unfortunately and apologetically I am not in a position to profess on what one should do about it! I hope this response will stir more arguments, Wishes Swadhin Swadhin Sen Archaeologist & Assistant Professor Department of Archaeology Jahangirnagar University Savar, Dhaka Bangladesh Ph. 88 01720196176 (mobile) ----- Original Message ---- From: Madhumita Lahiri < ml49 at duke.edu> To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:58:58 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai Hi Swadhinji and Naeemji, I use the Hindi honorific because using no honorific at all feels unseemly. I wanted to interface a rather stupefying question i got yesterday -- from a smart young Indian-origin student at a prestigious US university: "Is there a difference between Bengal and Bangladesh?" I answered yes (there is a geopolitical difference), then no (the cultures are not entirely separate), and then yes (but there are significant historical differences) and then just, what? Because the question, while seemingly simple, is a rather difficult one to tackle. I work on South Asian expressive culture -- particularly, the interface between popular film and what is thought of as 'high' literature -- and i work in Hindi, Bengali, and English. While my project is Indo-centric -- because of a focus on the transnational reception of the Kolkata- and Bombay-based film industries -- as a student of language and literature i want to work in linguistic units, not primarily in geopolitical ones. BUT, the question is: To what extent do you feel that it is a valid move to (claim to) work in/on/about 'Bangla,' given that the project will tilt towards Indian films? Does the claiming of a linguistic category end up erasing important geopolitical and historical differences -- or does it work usefully against the seemingly pervasive insistence on state-based distinctions, which are only 60 years old in our context? And what is one to do with the reality that South Asian language boundaries, somewhat like South Asian regional boundaries, are constantly shifting and responding to political imperatives, as well? (The Hindi/Urdu wallahs certainly know this one well!) Best wishes, and hopeful for a response, Madhumita On 9/9/07, Swadhin Sen wrote: > > Dear all > > The ubiquitous silence of the sarai subscribers about Naeem's mail is > noteworthy. > > 'Freedom of speech' is always entwined with the power relations. We may > send mails after mails to sarai. Yet, it doesn't mean that we will be heard. > In liberal version, the act of writing and act of speaking assumes the > action of other parties in taken for granted terms. The weak and > marginalized may be permitted to speak and write; but this agency doesn't > inhere the act of listening and consequent corrective measures. > > How will 'we', the non-Indians, interpret this action (in term of > refraining from acting and/or participating in the debate)? > > Thanking all, > > Swadhin > > Swadhin Sen > Archaeologist > & > Assistant Professor > Department of Archaeology > Jahangirnagar University > Savar, Dhaka > Bangladesh > Ph. 88 01720196176 (mobile) > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: S.Fatima < sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in> > To: Naeem Mohaiemen < naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com>; reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2007 3:37:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indo-centrism On Sarai > > No, no... we won't talk about Bangladesh and Pakistan. > Aren't those regions part of the Akhand Bharat. I hope > you know what akhand means. You better start learning > Hindi or else you would be branded anti-national. You > are a security threat to our Rashtra. You are a > Bangladeshi. > > (Sorry Naeem - that wasn't real me. I think being on > the Sarai list I am slowly turning into a Patriotic > Indian, which practically means being a Gaurav shali > Bharatiye and no longer respecting other cultures and > languages). > > By the way, they were exchanging Urdu couplets, not > Hindi. Since when has Urdu become Indian? > > > > --- Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > > There are many members of Sarai who are neither > > Indian, nor > > Hindi-speakers. But Indian members of Sarai seem so > > oblivious to > > their Indo-centrism that they presume that we will > > be able to, or want > > to, follow debates that are at this point even > > written entirely in > > Hindi (I refer to recent posts where entire couplets > > are posted in > > Hindi w. no translation). > > > > This comes at the cost of many other debates that > > could possibly > > happen. I've witnessed items posted regarding > > Bangladesh sinking > > without a trace/response. Recently, particular > > "Indian" topics have > > generated hundreds of replies, drowning out all > > else. The only time a > > Bangladeshi cultural producer (Taslima Nasreen) gets > > debated is when > > what is at stake is how she was treated in India. > > Only when Taslima > > is a vehicle to debate Hyderabad values, Indian > > secularism, etc does > > she become a person of interest. > > > > Bangladesh/Pakistan/or elsewhere in South Asia does > > enter into other > > discussions-- as a foil. To insert immigration into > > the debate, and > > of course the ultimate insult that can be flung at > > Suddha is that "he > > is no longer in Bangladesh". > > > > This weekend, I was talking to Manosh Chowdhury, who > > has just returned > > from Japan to Dhaka. Unprovoked he started talking > > about how "we" is > > used unquestioningly on Sarai to mean "Indian". > > Even "South Asian" > > means "Indian", or at least everything non-Indian is > > through the prism > > of the "center". > > > > But it's a bore to be the resident scold, or a > > token. I fear > > eventually most who feel suffocated by the recent > > endless debate (a > > debate which is often between a few individuals, > > sometimes even > > one-to-one, and yet it gets sent to the entire list) > > will have > > Manosh's reaction. They will drift away, exhausted. > > > > As Jeebesh pointed out, it takes very little time to > > destroy a > > cyber-community that has been built up painstakingly > > by Sarai over the > > years. Tyranny of the few threatens to do just > > that. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click > away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all > the tools to get online. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Sep 14 00:53:18 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:53:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709131041g378933d5xb2e684e81549df18@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709130501j690701eaj5164bbc5a16c9e23@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709130506y1bfc6ffajcfa97f742f593771@mail.gmail.com> <46E93B7D.7020405@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709131041g378933d5xb2e684e81549df18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E98E26.9000207@sarai.net> Pawan Durani wrote: > Shuddha , > > Just for my own information , i would like to know which one are you ? Which one as in ? As in - Dasgupta or Sengupta, Human or Animal, Vegetable or Mineral, Reptile or Bird, Mammal or Marsupial, Man or Woman, Occupied Kashmiri or Unoccupied Kashmiri Exiled Bengali or Exhausting Bengali, Undercover Bangladeshi or Bangladeshi Undercover, Pseudo-Secular or Secular-Pseudo, intellectual or ineffectual, djinn or farishta, anti-national or anti-anti-national, anti-anti-national or anti-anti-anti national, haunted or haunting, hunted or hunter, citizen or denizen, devi or devil, hyena or hellcat, laughing or crying, exegete or exorcist, heretic or hermit, traitor or troublemaker, toilet cleaner or fossil hunter, nemesis or redemption, (for you, I mean) Chondrobindoo or Jol-police (no, you wont get that one) .....? I am so confused at the choices I have, that I dont know where and when to begin, I mean when as well, not just where, because a person can be more than one thing in the course of a split second, let alone a year, or a lifetime, or a millenia, At your immigration control checkpoint, sir, I arive un-announced, with nothing to declare, or as some people I know, once, in some other context said, "The intensification of scrutiny must be met with the amplification of guile" Sorry, I lost my identity card on the way to making this posting. Will you please make me a new one, with all of the above listed against my fingerprint. yours Sh. From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 00:57:48 2007 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:57:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709131048x197470adib46406a45bf278b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709130501j690701eaj5164bbc5a16c9e23@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709130506y1bfc6ffajcfa97f742f593771@mail.gmail.com> <46E93B7D.7020405@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709131048x197470adib46406a45bf278b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0709131227iacc9a85j6b380a05d895354a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, I have been following this conversation for some time now and needless to say have been, like many lurkers on this list, edified, amused, and intrigued by turn. However now, I must admit, my overwhelming response is one of extreme irritation at the clotted cream smugness with which you appear on this list. I do not see how by stating "you have a basic problem patriotism" says anything at all. What is this nonsensical moral relationship we are being asked to forge with the state? As far as I am concerned the only relationship one can, and indeed must, have towards the state is one of ruthless instrumentality. This is an ethical position. And certainly one's obligation to the country must be limited to paying taxes. I don't see why the rest of us are to feel any moral obligations on account of a strange Oedipal complex you seem to have with bharat-mata. Please do yourself a favour and vacate the high moral ground on which you seem to have established permanent residence. There are far more interesting and agile places from which arguments can be made. If you must regale us with this continuous stream of rubbish everyday, at least try and not be so boring... regards Aarti On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Saddha Devi, > > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free man ? > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges against a > terrorist > has not been framed ? > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with "intellectuals" > leading it? > > If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand how safe the > Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > > Pawan > > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point that a > > woman > > > is molested , they are prone to it." > > > > > > > Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural that > > women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > > > I personally think that there is a world of a difference between the > > estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces in a > > combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a woman. > > > > No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially one in > > uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a situation of > > armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair target. If > > they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed forces. > > > > A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face and > > deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman does not > > make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, women do > > not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the streets > > of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most cities > > in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni suggests > > they are. > > > > By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what Pawan > > Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of people > > who will naturally face molestation in any and every circumstance, they > > are in his words "prone to it". > > > > It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan Durani > > is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > > > the kind obviously, who (logically following through his argument) > > thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, > > because, they "are prone to it". > > > > I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any > > circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > > > > > People like you have zero nationalism and negative intellectualism. > > > > > > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care even > for > > the > > > martyrs of his country. > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > >>Hi, > > >> > > >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have some > > >>questions > > >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? > > >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a part > of > > >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be > > >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that they'll be > > >> targetted by militants > > >> > > >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point of > > view. > > >> > > >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post is > not > > >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his mind > > >> and make him apologise. > > >> > > >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated people as > > >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we > know > > >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs to > be > > >>faced > > >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it by > > >>hate. > > >> > > >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in since > > >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to the > US > > >> and Ireland > > >> > > >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what you're > > >>trying to say, > > >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should > include > > >>the debate. > > >> > > >>Rgds, Partha > > >>.................... > > >> > > >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > >> > > >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > > argument................god > > >>>Bless India. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > >>> > > >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > >>>> > > >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > > >>> > > >>>misfortune > > >>> > > >>>>was that he was in uniform. > > >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were > waiting > > >>> > > >>>>near > > >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them > to > > >>> > > >>>the > > >>> > > >>>>airport. > > >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four > to > > >>>>five > > >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing > > >>> > > >>>that > > >>> > > >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last > thing > > >>> > > >>>he > > >>> > > >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. > > >>> > > >>>Hardly > > >>> > > >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a > head > > >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained > > >>> > > >>>silent > > >>> > > >>>>as > > >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a > clockwise > > >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into > Srinagar's > > >>>>numerous back lanes. > > >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to > defend > > >>> > > >>>the > > >>> > > >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the > > >>>>agents > > >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>*-- > > >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > > >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > >>>>_________________________________________ > > >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > > >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > > >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> > > >>>_________________________________________ > > >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>>Critiques & Collaborations > > >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>-- > > >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > >>http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 08:39:10 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:39:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <46E98E26.9000207@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709130501j690701eaj5164bbc5a16c9e23@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709130506y1bfc6ffajcfa97f742f593771@mail.gmail.com> <46E93B7D.7020405@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709131041g378933d5xb2e684e81549df18@mail.gmail.com> <46E98E26.9000207@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709132009p618e4ea4tf777287a1a5c1684@mail.gmail.com> Dear SAP ( Suddha , Arti & partho ) Going by your mails , i feel that you all have an intellect rivaled only by garden tools. God Bless the SAP Pawan Durani On 9/14/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Shuddha , > > > > Just for my own information , i would like to know which one are you ? > > Which one as in ? > > As in - > > Dasgupta or Sengupta, > Human or Animal, > Vegetable or Mineral, > Reptile or Bird, > Mammal or Marsupial, > Man or Woman, > Occupied Kashmiri or Unoccupied Kashmiri > Exiled Bengali or Exhausting Bengali, > Undercover Bangladeshi or Bangladeshi Undercover, > Pseudo-Secular or Secular-Pseudo, > intellectual or ineffectual, > djinn or farishta, > anti-national or anti-anti-national, > anti-anti-national or anti-anti-anti national, > haunted or haunting, > hunted or hunter, > citizen or denizen, > devi or devil, > hyena or hellcat, > laughing or crying, > exegete or exorcist, > heretic or hermit, > traitor or troublemaker, > toilet cleaner or fossil hunter, > nemesis or redemption, (for you, I mean) > Chondrobindoo or Jol-police (no, you wont get that one) > > .....? > > I am so confused at the choices I have, that I dont know where and when > to begin, I mean when as well, not just where, because a person can be > more than one thing in the course of a split second, let alone a year, > or a lifetime, or a millenia, > > At your immigration control checkpoint, sir, I arive un-announced, with > nothing to declare, > > or as some people I know, once, in some other context said, > > "The intensification of scrutiny must be met with the amplification of > guile" > > Sorry, I lost my identity card on the way to making this posting. Will > you please make me a new one, with all of the above listed against my > fingerprint. > > yours > > Sh. > > > > > From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 08:44:43 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:44:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An Apology: JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! Message-ID: <32144e990709132014u6be969f5te80a4a625539ea90@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, a) I wanted to apologise for one term that was used in my post last evening. I was in the middle of giving my children dinner and has asked a friend to hit the send button, but he decided to change a few words that he thought would express my point of view better. The phrase was "Or is it that a mental block is transferring to a sexual block that is raising the issue of rape? In that scenario, Frued (or a live shrink) would be the right person to go to." That was an extremely out of place and unwarranted remark, and I apologize for that. Sure, I could have done that in a private mail, but since the initial comment was made in a public forum, it is only fair that I should make my apologies in the same forum and not in private. My question was "If there's a mental block that is not allowing you to look beyond the emotional aspect and understand or respond to the logic of a viewpoint, then it is better to stay silent since there's nothing to say." b) As for the points you raised about being 'natural'. That's open to debate about what you consider natural. Cancer and AIDS have come out of the nature of human interaction and we're trying to find a cure for both - and a host of other 'natural' ailments. Does that mean we're going against the laws of nature? For the other part of your question, if you follow the simple logic of a soldier or a militant in an armed conflict there will be death on both sides. That does not mean that every soldier and militant will die in that conflict, but a certain percentage will die on both sides - as well as civilians in that zone despite not having anything to do with the conflict besides their presence. I short, it is not 'natural for a soldier to get killed', however the law of averages dictates that in an area of armed conflict some soldiers will die. c) As for the rest of your questions about Yasin Malik being a terrorist and having a fan following, I am getting a bit confused about your viewpoint. On one hand you claim to be a loyal Indian and a complete follower and believer in the tenets of India. On the other hand, you are calling a man cleared by the laws of India and someone who's trying to promote non-violence (which if you remember is a concept brought into vogue by Gandi who also happens to be the father of the nation) a terrorist. What's your point? Do you not believe in the laws of India? Or is it that the continued violence allows you a place to get angry and talk about how you've been victimised? On my part, would far prefer that more and more militants give up arms and join civil society. And if that means pardoning them, would rather have that than more dead people - and that includes soldiers, militants as well as civilians. Do you disagree to that? Rgds, Partha On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Saddha Devi, > > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free man ? > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges against a > terrorist has not been framed ? > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with "intellectuals" > leading it? > > If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand how safe the > Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > > Pawan > > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point that a > > woman > > > is molested , they are prone to it." > > > > > > > Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural that > > women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > > > I personally think that there is a world of a difference between the > > estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces in a > > combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a woman. > > > > No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially one in > > uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a situation of > > armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair target. If > > they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed forces. > > > > A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face and > > deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman does not > > make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, women do > > not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the streets > > of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most cities > > in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni suggests > > they are. > > > > By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what Pawan > > Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of people > > who will naturally face molestation in any and every circumstance, they > > are in his words "prone to it". > > > > It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan Durani > > is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > > > the kind obviously, who (logically following through his argument) > > thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, > > because, they "are prone to it". > > > > I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any > > circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > > > > > People like you have zero nationalism and negative intellectualism. > > > > > > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care even > > for the > > > martyrs of his country. > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > >>Hi, > > >> > > >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have some > > >>questions > > >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? > > >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a part > > of > > >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be > > >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that they'll be > > >> targetted by militants > > >> > > >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point of > > view. > > >> > > >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post is > > not > > >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his mind > > >> and make him apologise. > > >> > > >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated people as > > >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we > > know > > >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs to > > be > > >>faced > > >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it by > > >>hate. > > >> > > >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in since > > >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to the > > US > > >> and Ireland > > >> > > >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what you're > > >>trying to say, > > >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should > > include > > >>the debate. > > >> > > >>Rgds, Partha > > >>.................... > > >> > > >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > > argument................god > > >>>Bless India. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > >>> > > >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > >>>> > > >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > > >>> > > >>>misfortune > > >>> > > >>>>was that he was in uniform. > > >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were > > waiting > > >>> > > >>>>near > > >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them > > to > > >>> > > >>>the > > >>> > > >>>>airport. > > >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four > > to > > >>>>five > > >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing > > >>> > > >>>that > > >>> > > >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last > > thing > > >>> > > >>>he > > >>> > > >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. > > >>> > > >>>Hardly > > >>> > > >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a > > head > > >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained > > >>> > > >>>silent > > >>> > > >>>>as > > >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a > > clockwise > > >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into > > Srinagar's > > >>>>numerous back lanes. > > >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to > > defend > > >>> > > >>>the > > >>> > > >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the > > >>>>agents > > >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>*-- > > >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > > >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > >>>>_________________________________________ > > >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > > >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > > >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> > > >>>_________________________________________ > > >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>>Critiques & Collaborations > > >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>-- > > >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > >>http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 09:07:36 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:07:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709130615ref35fe9r937995a647a7c311@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709130447k28035b2avf0ec5a1ee7595bc1@mail.gmail.com> <46E9322E.4010300@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70709130615ref35fe9r937995a647a7c311@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709132037y23c4b580ue88c9eac767ad1ee@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, This reply is probably a repeat of what I wrote earlier (and I do wish you would construct your arguments logically) However, in case my point doesn't get through, am responding directly to the points raised by you. 1. Supporting militants. If they are giving up arms and returning to civil life like Yasin Malik did, I certainly am a supporter. That they will give up armed conflict and try to resolve the issue through debate is something I would very much like as it would bring down the number of people that would die otherwise. I presume, that you to would like less people to die? Or am I wrong here? 2. The obligation to my country being limited to paying taxes. - Well, I live here and not abroad and generate jobs here. - I don't go about throwing bombs (or even garbage at people) And yes, I love this country and human race enough to want that less people die and armed conflict is replaced by debate. Don't you? 3. Being obsessed with Yasin Malik That's a very strange question coming from you. The original post was from you, and since posts on this forum are meant to start a debate or a discussion of view points, it is presumable that you posted the topic to start a debate. And now you're asking why I'm interested in Yasin Malik when you started the topic? 4. Learning. All I asked for was the point behind the post and what you're trying to show. And that, by the way, is what I've been asking from my first post. Maybe you won't be able to accept this now, but knowing and understanding other points of view is important. I joined this list so I would learn other points of view and open my horizon. Which is why I also responded to your post since I couldn't figure out what that post was trying to say (and still haven't). However, all I've heard besides the blessings is that soldiers die or a question of whether it is natural for a woman to be raped or that Yasin Malik is free and has a following. These are all know facts, and yes, facts should be used to make a point. I understand the facts behind the point as they're common logic. What I don't understand is the point you are trying to make. To get back to my question from day 1, what's your case? Rgds, Partha On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Suddha : My mail was not directed to you unless you consider one among the > defenders of terrorists. > > Partho : Nice to hear that your obligation to your country is limited to > paying taxes. As for as your suggestion of me trying to learn is concerned > , > I pray to god that I should not be as learned as you are. > > And BTW why are you all so obsessed with defending yasin malik , if the > terrorist does not matter to you ? > > > > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear all, Dear ARKP, > > > > It seems to me that you guys are the people most attatched to Yasin > > Malik on this list. I have rarely seen such undying affection or > > devotion to Yasin Malik as demonstrated by you, repeatedly. Really, the > > JKLF (Yasin Malik faction) should hire you as publicists. > > > > Whenever you have a problem, whenever your arguments are demonstrated as > > hollow, whenever the discussion moves on towards things more intersting > > than what you throw into the ring, you pull Yasin Malik out of your > > little bag of tricks. As if he was some kind of protective talisman > > behind whom you can shield your obvious inability to participate in a > > discussion. > > > > In two successive mails addressed to Pawan Durani, I had categorically > > stated my opposition to the use of violence, and also categorically > > mentioned that if any charges are brought in the legally prescribed > > manner against Yasin Malik, me, Pawan Durani, my father or Santa Claus > > on suspicion of homicide then they (Yasin Malik, me, Pawan Durani, my > > father and Santa Claus) should be required to stand a free and fair > trial. > > > > I had said this while trying painstakingly to explain the meaning of the > > phrase 'he, or any other' which I had used when on another occasion, > > ARKP had brought out the effigy of Yasin Malik (yet again) to cover for > > their defeated arguments. I cannot understand why, after this, the issue > > of Yasin Malik refuses to go away. > > > > See my posts, > > > > 1. Re: [Reader-list] By R.J.Rummel, September 3, 2007 > > 2. Re : [Reader-list] Reply To Shuddha (Yasin Sahibs Fan), September 4, > > 2007 > > > > In the first, I say - "As for the deaths of Indian State and Armed > > Forces Personnel. Let me make my position clear. I am not a votary of > > pursuing politics by violence, no matter who does it. Not because I have > > a moral position vis a vis violence, but because I believe that the > > strategy of terror, no matter who pursues it, invariably leads to > > secretive, un-accountable and un-democratic politics, which leads to > > popular movements being corrupted and infiltrated by the very forces > > that they are opposing. I think this has happenned in Kashmir, and it > > happenned both because of the machinations of the Indian state and the > > political immaturity of the pro Azadi 'tanzeems' in Jammu and Kashmir, > > and in the Kashmiri diaspora." > > > > In the second post, I say "if anyone, whether it is Yasin Malik or > > Santa Claus, or you, or me, or my father, that is what the "he or any > > other person" in the above paragraph means (reference to a quotaion from > > a fragement of my earlier post) - is found guilty of homicide > > in a free and fair trial, they should be punished for it, with a prison > > term if need be, as per the provisions of a criminal procedure code." > > > > I do not know how much clearer a position can be than this. And yet, > > again, and again, and again, we see Pawan Durani bringing up the > > allegation that there are poeple on this list (myself explicitly > > included) who serve as apologists either for Yasin Malik or for anyone > > else who has either committed or condoned the use of violence in Kashmir > > > > So the next time someone, anyone, in ARKP (though this type of bad > > sniping does seem to be the particular forte of A and P) brings out the > > effigy of Yasin Malik in any posting, dear readers, please understand > > that it is a semaphore, a code that indicates that they are admitting > > yet again that they are a bunch of losers, who refuse to learn any > > lessons from their defeats. We can sympathise (at a stretch) with the > > abjectness of that failure, but we cannot refuse to see it for what it > is. > > > > I am also amused at the deliberate carping about the category of people > > that are being loosely called 'intellectuals' on this list. I fail to > > understand precisely what is wrong with being an 'intellectual' - with > > being a person who works for a living with words, images, ideas and > > concepts. Is it better to be a dentist, or a chef, or a traffic police > > inspector, or a gardener, or a financial analyst than it is to be a > > writer, a teacher, an artist, a philosopher, a librarian or a scientist? > > > > I see nothing wrong with being a dentist, or a chef, or a traffic > > police inspector, or a gardener, or a financial analyst, and > > consequently, I fail to see what is wrong with being what is loosely > > called 'an intellectual'. Since when did the choice of your practice > > mark you out as being the appropriate target of abuse. Would it make > > sense, if I, or anyone else were to say on this list, "...and the > > 'dentists' will still have some argument...........god bless India'. > > > > Is it someone's fault that they take care about how they write, or read, > > or express an argument? Is it a mistake, an error, to be able to work > > through the nuances of a statement, or an argument, to try and see > > complexity, or to try and engage in a dialogue on the basis of a respect > > for knowledge and the spirit of dialogue? > > > > I think it is far worse to see some people demonstrate their pride in > > their inability to marshall even the basic rudiments of an argument. The > > arrogance born of knowledge, or of claims to knowledge, is sad, but the > > arrogance born of wilful and publicly demonstrated ignorance is really > > pathetic. > > > > regards, > > > > an intellectual, and a toilet cleaner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > And the "intellectuals" will still have some > argument................god > > > Bless India. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > >>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > >> > > >>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > > misfortune > > >>was that he was in uniform. > > >>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were waiting > > >>near > > >>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them to > > the > > >>airport. > > >>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four to > > >>five > > >>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing > > that > > >>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last thing > > he > > >>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. > > Hardly > > >>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a head > > >>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained > > silent > > >>as > > >>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a clockwise > > >>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into Srinagar's > > >>numerous back lanes. > > >>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to defend > > the > > >>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the > > >>agents > > >>of the 'enemy'. * > > >> > > >> > > >>*-- > > >>Aditya Raj Kaul > > >>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > >>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > >>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > >>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > >>_________________________________________ > > >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>Critiques & Collaborations > > >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>subscribe in the subject header. > > >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From amitabh at sarai.net Fri Sep 14 12:39:34 2007 From: amitabh at sarai.net (Amitabh Kumar) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:39:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Of how we became engineers.. Message-ID: It was 11 in the night and we were driving around the streets of Baroda. Nothing out of the usual, just a drive in the night. A police van stopped us and asked us who we were... and what do we do. Before I could mumble ' Faculty of Fine Arts..' , my friend said, " We are engineers,saheb, coming back from work." The cop took a hard look at us and then nodded. We sped away. I asked my friend what that was about. " These days are not really good for the fine arts crowd, man.... these guys just need an excuse to pick up SOMEONE from the faculty. Anything.. I have been picked up once and harassed.. a few others have spent a night in jail. It's lucky we weren't drinking..." I waited for the giggle that would signal the end of the joke. There was none. From justjunaid at rediffmail.com Fri Sep 14 13:45:33 2007 From: justjunaid at rediffmail.com (junaid) Date: 14 Sep 2007 08:15:33 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] On JKLF and Indian Airforce Personnel Message-ID: <20070914081533.12689.qmail@webmail73.rediffmail.com>   The Indian state has entered the bodies of Pawan Duranis and Aditya Kauls imperceptibly. When Mr. Durani or Mr. Kaul speaks, it is the voice of state, as the sole provider of values, which comes out. The State says "My violence is my right, and my right alone, but anyone who challenges this right, that is my sovereignty, she/he/they should be deemed criminal, fit only to be eliminated through the laws that I make." So Mr. Durani, who has unconsciously become the spokesman of the state, and regurgitates its litanies, would be confounded if someone punctures his seemingly coherent discourse by refusing to accept the legitimacy of the state. He will label anti-national and unpatriotic people who don't accept the state's "natural" logic. When Kashmiris started an armed struggle against Indian state, its main actors, the militants were not separate from, what are mistakenly called, civilians. No one is innocent in Kashmir, militants, "civilians", Indian troops or officials, Pandits. They have positions on political issues. When a Kashmiri is killed by Indian troops, instead of seeking justice from Indian state, people come together to forge a solidarity, they bear individual pain collectively. Take the example of Pathribal killings when the police fired on Kashmiris protesting fake killings of five Kashmiris, and seven more died. Why would Kashmiris allow such a thing to happen to themselves? The responsibility for the acts of militants, or armed Kashmiris, was shared equally by the Kashmiri society. It was quite evident in the way Kashmiris liberally funded the movement (many people gave away part of their salaries, month after month, and from the returns from their trade), participated in popular protests on the call from militants, gave shelter and food to militants, protested in thousands in funerals for militants, and suffered individual and collective brutalities at the hands of Indian army. Militants were seen as the soldiers of the Kashmiri nation, their freedom fighters, not brigands or criminals. Kashmiris never participated in funerals for killed Indian soldiers. Like the way people in India mourned the death of Indian soldiers. Kashmiris have always seen Indian forces as occupation troops. Occupation: unlawful, illegitimate control of territories whose residents don't endorse or authorize that control. And by popularly and violently opposing Indian rule in Kashmir, expressed in the slogans and motifs of the movement, a vast majority of Kashmiris declared their position. Now the incident referred to here: The Indian airmen, armed or unarmed, were part of the Indian state's most visible and brutal aspect, the Indian defense. Logically, in war the enemy's soldiers, armed or unarmed, are legitimate targets. That is what they became. If Yasin Malik is hanged, then those thousands of Indian soldiers who killed thousands of militants should be hanged too. If he is forced to say sorry to India, then Indian soldiers should say sorry to Kashmir. Kashmir's freedom movement is not a series of individual crimes. As Indian states atrocities and brutalities are not acts of individual crimes by soldiers. They are political acts. In Kashmir they are seen as such. Personally I am against wars; but at the same time, I am against the appropriation of the right to violence by the state; and I especially despise this appropriation in occupied territories. Junaid From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 13:49:42 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] *********************************NIZAM RAZAKAR MOVEMENT****************************************** In-Reply-To: <718926.77266.qm@web45504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <605767.32139.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Readers, On the debate I just missed to mention one important point. If you type it in google you can find several links. Among them for your convenience I pasted few link which will not take more than 30 minutes to go-through and understand. A recent one similar to the atrocities of Aurangzeb by NIZAM. RAZAKAR MOVEMENT, KHASIM RIZVI. On this I just added Swapandas gupta column(link 3). The MIM attacking Tasleema Nasreen. 1) http://www.vepachedu.org/hyderabad.html 2) http://www.telangana.com/History/razakar.htm 3) http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=swapan%2Fswapan159.txt&writer=swapan 4) http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2005/16-31Mar05-Print-Edition/163103200579.htm 5) http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1805/18051140.htm Military system is there to protect the country boarders and boundaries sure but from Outside Invaders. This is the primary objective of any country's Military system. I don't understand how the world military do react, in situations that India faced since Alexander to Post Independence Wars. From Emperors to democracy as a country and Nation India never tried to invade any country. I do excuse those who are unwilling(Pakistan,China,junaid and liked personalities and the rest of the feelers and supporters) to withdrew their statements, comments and forces on India,Jammu and Kashmir(Our head and brain) Occupations and offerings,Indo Centrism. I do excuse our failure to question about the wealth steal-ed by Islamic rulers, British and respective regime selfishness,unwillingness to return the robbed/looted property. I request you through SARAI, to surpass the idea of IPR/PATENTS over 0 under GATT/WTO pacts and reforms to empower the country(INDIA) and put on hold to the betrayers from now onwards at least. Thanx and Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 13:55:54 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:55:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An Apology: JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <32144e990709132014u6be969f5te80a4a625539ea90@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990709132014u6be969f5te80a4a625539ea90@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709140125w78c4f359ldddf0dad808d9fbd@mail.gmail.com> Partha Said : On the other hand, you are calling a man [ read Yasin Malik ] cleared by the laws of India and someone who's trying to promote non-violence (which if you remember is a concept brought into vogue by Gandi who also happens to be the father of the nation) a terrorist. Dear Partha , How do you expect me to discuss a sensitive issue with you when you state that Yasin malik has been cleared by law. For your information he has not been cleared , he still has scores of cases against him that includes terrorist activities , killings , Kiddnapping Hawala , threats etc. I fail to understand how can you copmare this person with Gandhi ? When was gandhi accused of all this , unless i have read a different history and not the one which is printed under a red flag. Pawan Durani On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > a) I wanted to apologise for one term that was used in my post last > evening. I was in > the middle of giving my children dinner and has asked a friend to > hit the send > button, but he decided to change a few words that he thought would > express my > point of view better. > > The phrase was "Or is it that a mental block is transferring to a > sexual block that is > raising the issue of rape? In that scenario, Frued (or a live > shrink) would be the right > person to go to." > > That was an extremely out of place and unwarranted remark, and I > apologize for that. > Sure, I could have done that in a private mail, but since the > initial comment was made > in a public forum, it is only fair that I should make my apologies > in the same forum and > not in private. > > My question was "If there's a mental block that is not allowing you > to look beyond > the emotional aspect and understand or respond to the logic of a > viewpoint, then it > is better to stay silent since there's nothing to say." > > b) As for the points you raised about being 'natural'. That's open to > debate about what > you consider natural. Cancer and AIDS have come out of the nature > of human > interaction and we're trying to find a cure for both - and a host > of other 'natural' > ailments. Does that mean we're going against the laws of nature? > > For the other part of your question, if you follow the simple logic > of a soldier or a > militant in an armed conflict there will be death on both sides. > That does not mean > that every soldier and militant will die in that conflict, but a > certain percentage will > die on both sides - as well as civilians in that zone despite not > having anything to > do with the conflict besides their presence. > > I short, it is not 'natural for a soldier to get killed', however > the law of averages dictates > that in an area of armed conflict some soldiers will die. > > c) As for the rest of your questions about Yasin Malik being a > terrorist and having a > fan following, I am getting a bit confused about your viewpoint. > > On one hand you claim to be a loyal Indian and a complete follower > and believer > in the tenets of India. > > On the other hand, you are calling a man cleared by the laws of > India and someone > who's trying to promote non-violence (which if you remember is a > concept brought > into vogue by Gandi who also happens to be the father of the nation) > a terrorist. > > What's your point? Do you not believe in the laws of India? Or is it > that the continued > violence allows you a place to get angry and talk about how you've > been victimised? > > On my part, would far prefer that more and more militants give up > arms and join civil > society. And if that means pardoning them, would rather have that > than more dead > people - and that includes soldiers, militants as well as civilians. > > Do you disagree to that? > > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Saddha Devi, > > > > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > > > > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free man ? > > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges against a > > terrorist has not been framed ? > > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with "intellectuals" > > leading it? > > > > If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand how safe > > the Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > > > > Pawan > > > > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point that > > > a woman > > > > is molested , they are prone to it." > > > > > > > > > > Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural that > > > women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > > > > > I personally think that there is a world of a difference between the > > > estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces in a > > > combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a woman. > > > > > > No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially one in > > > uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a situation of > > > armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair target. If > > > they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed forces. > > > > > > A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face and > > > deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman does not > > > make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, women > > > do > > > not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the streets > > > of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most cities > > > in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni suggests > > > > > > they are. > > > > > > By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what Pawan > > > Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of people > > > who will naturally face molestation in any and every circumstance, > > > they > > > are in his words "prone to it". > > > > > > It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan Durani > > > is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > > > > > the kind obviously, who (logically following through his argument) > > > thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, > > > because, they "are prone to it". > > > > > > I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any > > > circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > > > > > > > People like you have zero nationalism and negative intellectualism. > > > > > > > > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care even > > > for the > > > > martyrs of his country. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > >>Hi, > > > >> > > > >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have some > > > >>questions > > > >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? > > > >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a > > > part of > > > >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be > > > >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that they'll > > > be > > > >> targetted by militants > > > >> > > > >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point of > > > view. > > > >> > > > >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post is > > > not > > > >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his mind > > > >> and make him apologise. > > > >> > > > >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated people > > > as > > > >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we > > > know > > > >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs to > > > be > > > >>faced > > > >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it > > > by > > > >>hate. > > > >> > > > >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in > > > since > > > >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to the > > > US > > > >> and Ireland > > > >> > > > >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what you're > > > >>trying to say, > > > >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should > > > include > > > >>the debate. > > > >> > > > >>Rgds, Partha > > > >>.................... > > > >> > > > >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > > > argument................god > > > >>>Bless India. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > > >>>> > > > >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > > > >>> > > > >>>misfortune > > > >>> > > > >>>>was that he was in uniform. > > > >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were > > > waiting > > > >>> > > > >>>>near > > > >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them > > > to > > > >>> > > > >>>the > > > >>> > > > >>>>airport. > > > >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying > > > four to > > > >>>>five > > > >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next > > > thing > > > >>> > > > >>>that > > > >>> > > > >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last > > > thing > > > >>> > > > >>>he > > > >>> > > > >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were > > > injured. > > > >>> > > > >>>Hardly > > > >>> > > > >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a > > > head > > > >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained > > > >>> > > > >>>silent > > > >>> > > > >>>>as > > > >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a > > > clockwise > > > >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into > > > Srinagar's > > > >>>>numerous back lanes. > > > >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to > > > defend > > > >>> > > > >>>the > > > >>> > > > >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were > > > the > > > >>>>agents > > > >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>*-- > > > >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > > > >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > > >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > > >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > > >>>>_________________________________________ > > > >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > >>>>To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >>> > > > >>>_________________________________________ > > > >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>-- > > > >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > >> http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:10:55 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:10:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On JKLF and Indian Airforce Personnel In-Reply-To: <20070914081533.12689.qmail@webmail73.rediffmail.com> References: <20070914081533.12689.qmail@webmail73.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709140140x15309ee2n8f4049e2ae0d8d60@mail.gmail.com> And I can understand when a killer [ Bitta karate ] of 40 kashmiri pandits come out of jail, people in Kashmir welcome him with garlands and distribute sweet. Where does that imply bearing the individual pain collectively go ? All in the name of Supreme. Pawan On 14 Sep 2007 08:15:33 -0000, junaid wrote: > > > The Indian state has entered the bodies of Pawan Duranis and Aditya Kauls > imperceptibly. When Mr. Durani or Mr. Kaul speaks, it is the voice of state, > as the sole provider of values, which comes out. The State says "My violence > is my right, and my right alone, but anyone who challenges this right, that > is my sovereignty, she/he/they should be deemed criminal, fit only to be > eliminated through the laws that I make." > > So Mr. Durani, who has unconsciously become the spokesman of the state, > and regurgitates its litanies, would be confounded if someone punctures his > seemingly coherent discourse by refusing to accept the legitimacy of the > state. He will label anti-national and unpatriotic people who don't accept > the state's "natural" logic. > > When Kashmiris started an armed struggle against Indian state, its main > actors, the militants were not separate from, what are mistakenly called, > civilians. No one is innocent in Kashmir, militants, "civilians", Indian > troops or officials, Pandits. They have positions on political issues. > > When a Kashmiri is killed by Indian troops, instead of seeking justice > from Indian state, people come together to forge a solidarity, they bear > individual pain collectively. Take the example of Pathribal killings when > the police fired on Kashmiris protesting fake killings of five Kashmiris, > and seven more died. Why would Kashmiris allow such a thing to happen to > themselves? > > The responsibility for the acts of militants, or armed Kashmiris, was > shared equally by the Kashmiri society. It was quite evident in the way > Kashmiris liberally funded the movement (many people gave away part of their > salaries, month after month, and from the returns from their trade), > participated in popular protests on the call from militants, gave shelter > and food to militants, protested in thousands in funerals for militants, and > suffered individual and collective brutalities at the hands of Indian army. > Militants were seen as the soldiers of the Kashmiri nation, their freedom > fighters, not brigands or criminals. > > Kashmiris never participated in funerals for killed Indian soldiers. Like > the way people in India mourned the death of Indian soldiers. Kashmiris have > always seen Indian forces as occupation troops. Occupation: unlawful, > illegitimate control of territories whose residents don't endorse or > authorize that control. And by popularly and violently opposing Indian rule > in Kashmir, expressed in the slogans and motifs of the movement, a vast > majority of Kashmiris declared their position. > > Now the incident referred to here: The Indian airmen, armed or unarmed, > were part of the Indian state's most visible and brutal aspect, the Indian > defense. Logically, in war the enemy's soldiers, armed or unarmed, are > legitimate targets. That is what they became. If Yasin Malik is hanged, then > those thousands of Indian soldiers who killed thousands of militants should > be hanged too. If he is forced to say sorry to India, then Indian soldiers > should say sorry to Kashmir. > > Kashmir's freedom movement is not a series of individual crimes. As Indian > states atrocities and brutalities are not acts of individual crimes by > soldiers. They are political acts. In Kashmir they are seen as such. > > Personally I am against wars; but at the same time, I am against the > appropriation of the right to violence by the state; and I especially > despise this appropriation in occupied territories. > > Junaid > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:18:50 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:18:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] *********************************NIZAM RAZAKAR MOVEMENT****************************************** In-Reply-To: <605767.32139.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <718926.77266.qm@web45504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <605767.32139.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140148k5234d926r97acb5cf064823@mail.gmail.com> Hi Dhatri, Went through your mail and the links but was completely baffled by the post. 1. Where does the Military come in? You've shown posts wherein they're heroes, and official reports where they engaged in loot and rape. What's that got to do with protecting boundaries? 2. Never tried to invade... Please get your facts right. How was Bangladesh born? It was carved out of Pakistan by an armed conflict. Which also was marked by rape and loot. 3. Wealth stolen by Islamic rulers. Please read your history. Most of them settled their family lines here (if not all). And they're assimilated in India like the Greeks and the Romans. If you claim they're not, how far will we go back in history till we define who the original habitants are and then throw out everyone else? 4. Whatever else was 'stolen' by various rulers, I don't quite see how you are claiming a right to it. In some cases, there is a clear transgression, but then again whichever maharaja it was taken from usually gave it to please the 'masters'. Sure, I'm glad that the sword of Tipu Sultan was won back, but that doesn't mean we go about screaming about things that were actually given. If a man in those days bought a Peacock leaf and took it back to his wife in the UK, and the family still retains it - it's their right. 5. What occupation are you referring to? Jammu and Kashmir? One parts in India and the other in Pakistan and the debate has gone on endlessly as to whether they should be a different country or a part of India (as India insists) or a part of Pakistan (as Pakistan insists). As far as I'm concerned, the first requirement is to stop the killing and the cycle of hate. Then, and ONLY then, can a meaningful dialogue happen that can actually reach a solution. Till then everything else is a verbal fight that will continue till a physical fight and more and more people will die. I do hope that stopping the loss of life is one of your aims, as it is your countymen (and women) who are also dying in this conflict, and you claim to love the country. Rgds, Partha .................. On 9/14/07, we wi wrote: > > > > Dear Readers, > > On the debate I just missed to mention one important point. If > you type it in google you can find several links. Among them for your > convenience I pasted few link which will not take more than 30 minutes to > go-through and understand. A recent one similar to the atrocities of > Aurangzeb by NIZAM. > > RAZAKAR MOVEMENT, KHASIM RIZVI. > > On this I just added Swapandas gupta column(link 3). The MIM attacking > Tasleema Nasreen. > > 1) http://www.vepachedu.org/hyderabad.html > 2) http://www.telangana.com/History/razakar.htm > 3) > http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=swapan%2Fswapan159.txt&writer=swapan > 4) > http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2005/16-31Mar05-Print-Edition/163103200579.htm > 5) http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1805/18051140.htm > > > Military system is there to protect the country boarders > and boundaries sure but from Outside Invaders. This is the primary > objective of any country's Military system. I don't understand how the > world military do react, in situations that India faced since Alexander to > Post Independence Wars. From Emperors to democracy as a country and Nation > India never tried to invade any country. > > I do excuse those who are unwilling(Pakistan,China,junaid and liked > personalities and the rest of the feelers and supporters) to withdrew their > statements, comments and forces on India,Jammu and Kashmir(Our head and > brain) Occupations and offerings,Indo Centrism. I do excuse our failure to > question about the wealth steal-ed by Islamic rulers, British and respective > regime selfishness,unwillingness to return the robbed/looted property. I > request you through SARAI, to surpass the idea of IPR/PATENTS over 0 under > GATT/WTO pacts and reforms to empower the country(INDIA) and put on hold to > the betrayers from now onwards at least. > > Thanx and Regards, > Dhatri. > > --------------------------------- > > > > --------------------------------- > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get > listings, and more! > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! > FareChase. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:25:26 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:25:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An Apology: JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officers were agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709140125w78c4f359ldddf0dad808d9fbd@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990709132014u6be969f5te80a4a625539ea90@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140125w78c4f359ldddf0dad808d9fbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140155ibbd7a33y98ff87ebea33c9d8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, a) Are you saying that Yasin Malik has not been cleared of anything and has not been accepted by the Indian Govt of a militant who has handed in his arms and now proposes non-violence? If that is so, I disagree. b) The reason we're discussing the issue is because some thought about it strongly enough to post, so I do hope that it is 'sensitive'. Though, if you're that fragile, would suggest that you don't post since all public posts will draw reactions, and all of them will not subscribe to your point of view. c) Let's take Gandhi once more into the focus. At the point that he was leading the freedom movement, the government was run by the British, and he was going against it. That is how this country was born - before that it was a bunch of kingdoms spread across the land with no allegiances to any concept or thought of India. Rgds, Partha On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Partha Said : On the other hand, you are calling a man [ read Yasin Malik > ] cleared by the laws of India and someone who's trying to promote > non-violence (which if you remember is a concept brought into vogue by Gandi > who also happens to be the father of the nation) a terrorist. > > Dear Partha , > > How do you expect me to discuss a sensitive issue with you when you state > that Yasin malik has been cleared by law. For your information he has not > been cleared , he still has scores of cases against him that includes > terrorist activities , killings , Kiddnapping Hawala , threats etc. > > I fail to understand how can you copmare this person with Gandhi ? When > was gandhi accused of all this , unless i have read a different history and > not the one which is printed under a red flag. > > Pawan Durani > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > a) I wanted to apologise for one term that was used in my post last > > evening. I was in > > the middle of giving my children dinner and has asked a friend to > > hit the send > > button, but he decided to change a few words that he thought would > > express my > > point of view better. > > > > The phrase was "Or is it that a mental block is transferring to a > > sexual block that is > > raising the issue of rape? In that scenario, Frued (or a live > > shrink) would be the right > > person to go to." > > > > That was an extremely out of place and unwarranted remark, and I > > apologize for that. > > Sure, I could have done that in a private mail, but since the > > initial comment was made > > in a public forum, it is only fair that I should make my apologies > > in the same forum and > > not in private. > > > > My question was "If there's a mental block that is not allowing > > you to look beyond > > the emotional aspect and understand or respond to the logic of a > > viewpoint, then it > > is better to stay silent since there's nothing to say." > > > > b) As for the points you raised about being 'natural'. That's open to > > debate about what > > you consider natural. Cancer and AIDS have come out of the nature > > of human > > interaction and we're trying to find a cure for both - and a host > > of other 'natural' > > ailments. Does that mean we're going against the laws of nature? > > > > For the other part of your question, if you follow the simple > > logic of a soldier or a > > militant in an armed conflict there will be death on both sides. > > That does not mean > > that every soldier and militant will die in that conflict, but a > > certain percentage will > > die on both sides - as well as civilians in that zone despite not > > having anything to > > do with the conflict besides their presence. > > > > I short, it is not 'natural for a soldier to get killed', > > however the law of averages dictates > > that in an area of armed conflict some soldiers will die. > > > > c) As for the rest of your questions about Yasin Malik being a > > terrorist and having a > > fan following, I am getting a bit confused about your viewpoint. > > > > On one hand you claim to be a loyal Indian and a complete > > follower and believer > > in the tenets of India. > > > > On the other hand, you are calling a man cleared by the laws of > > India and someone > > who's trying to promote non-violence (which if you remember is a > > concept brought > > into vogue by Gandi who also happens to be the father of the > > nation) a terrorist. > > > > What's your point? Do you not believe in the laws of India? Or is > > it that the continued > > violence allows you a place to get angry and talk about how you've > > been victimised? > > > > On my part, would far prefer that more and more militants give up > > arms and join civil > > society. And if that means pardoning them, would rather have that > > than more dead > > people - and that includes soldiers, militants as well as > > civilians. > > > > Do you disagree to that? > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > Saddha Devi, > > > > > > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > > > > > > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > > > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free man ? > > > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges against a > > > terrorist has not been framed ? > > > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with > > > "intellectuals" leading it? > > > > > > If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand how safe > > > the Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point > > > > that a woman > > > > > is molested , they are prone to it." > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural that > > > > women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > > > > > > > I personally think that there is a world of a difference between the > > > > > > > > estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces in > > > > a > > > > combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a > > > > woman. > > > > > > > > No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially one in > > > > > > > > uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a situation > > > > of > > > > armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair target. > > > > If > > > > they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed forces. > > > > > > > > A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face and > > > > deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman does > > > > not > > > > make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, women > > > > do > > > > not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the > > > > streets > > > > of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most > > > > cities > > > > in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni > > > > suggests > > > > they are. > > > > > > > > By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what Pawan > > > > Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of > > > > people > > > > who will naturally face molestation in any and every circumstance, > > > > they > > > > are in his words "prone to it". > > > > > > > > It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan > > > > Durani > > > > is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > > > > > > > the kind obviously, who (logically following through his argument) > > > > thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, > > > > because, they "are prone to it". > > > > > > > > I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any > > > > circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > > > > > > > > > People like you have zero nationalism and negative > > > > intellectualism. > > > > > > > > > > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care > > > > even for the > > > > > martyrs of his country. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>Hi, > > > > >> > > > > >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have > > > > some > > > > >>questions > > > > >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? > > > > >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a > > > > part of > > > > >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be > > > > > > > > >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that > > > > they'll be > > > > >> targetted by militants > > > > >> > > > > >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point > > > > of view. > > > > >> > > > > >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post > > > > is not > > > > >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his > > > > mind > > > > >> and make him apologise. > > > > >> > > > > >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated > > > > people as > > > > >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we > > > > know > > > > >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs > > > > to be > > > > >>faced > > > > >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it > > > > by > > > > >>hate. > > > > >> > > > > >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in > > > > since > > > > >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to > > > > the US > > > > >> and Ireland > > > > >> > > > > >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what > > > > you're > > > > >>trying to say, > > > > >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should > > > > include > > > > >>the debate. > > > > >> > > > > >>Rgds, Partha > > > > >>.................... > > > > >> > > > > >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > > > > argument................god > > > > >>>Bless India. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > > > > >>> > > > > >>>misfortune > > > > >>> > > > > >>>>was that he was in uniform. > > > > >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were > > > > waiting > > > > >>> > > > > >>>>near > > > > >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach > > > > them to > > > > >>> > > > > >>>the > > > > >>> > > > > >>>>airport. > > > > >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying > > > > four to > > > > >>>>five > > > > >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next > > > > thing > > > > >>> > > > > >>>that > > > > >>> > > > > >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last > > > > thing > > > > >>> > > > > >>>he > > > > >>> > > > > >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were > > > > injured. > > > > >>> > > > > >>>Hardly > > > > >>> > > > > >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a > > > > head > > > > >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles > > > > remained > > > > >>> > > > > >>>silent > > > > >>> > > > > >>>>as > > > > >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a > > > > clockwise > > > > >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into > > > > Srinagar's > > > > >>>>numerous back lanes. > > > > >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to > > > > defend > > > > >>> > > > > >>>the > > > > >>> > > > > >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were > > > > the > > > > >>>>agents > > > > >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>*-- > > > > >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > > > >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > > >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > > > >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > > > >>>>_________________________________________ > > > > >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >>>>To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > >>>_________________________________________ > > > > >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > >>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >>>To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>-- > > > > >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > >> http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:29:10 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:29:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On JKLF and Indian Airforce Personnel In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709140140x15309ee2n8f4049e2ae0d8d60@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914081533.12689.qmail@webmail73.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140140x15309ee2n8f4049e2ae0d8d60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140159o73078feao99e72927c4d8f839@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, Interesting. You say that the 'people of Kashmir welcome him with...' Are you not counting yourself as a 'person of Kashmir'? And if you are, why do you have any 'individual pain' More importantly, what does this have to do with Junaid's post which talks about the construction of the armed struggle? Rgds, Partha ......................... On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > And I can understand when a killer [ Bitta karate ] of 40 kashmiri pandits > come out of jail, people in Kashmir welcome him with garlands and > distribute > sweet. > > Where does that imply bearing the individual pain collectively go ? > > All in the name of Supreme. > > Pawan > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 08:15:33 -0000, junaid wrote: > > > > > > The Indian state has entered the bodies of Pawan Duranis and Aditya > Kauls > > imperceptibly. When Mr. Durani or Mr. Kaul speaks, it is the voice of > state, > > as the sole provider of values, which comes out. The State says "My > violence > > is my right, and my right alone, but anyone who challenges this right, > that > > is my sovereignty, she/he/they should be deemed criminal, fit only to be > > eliminated through the laws that I make." > > > > So Mr. Durani, who has unconsciously become the spokesman of the state, > > and regurgitates its litanies, would be confounded if someone punctures > his > > seemingly coherent discourse by refusing to accept the legitimacy of the > > state. He will label anti-national and unpatriotic people who don't > accept > > the state's "natural" logic. > > > > When Kashmiris started an armed struggle against Indian state, its main > > actors, the militants were not separate from, what are mistakenly > called, > > civilians. No one is innocent in Kashmir, militants, "civilians", Indian > > troops or officials, Pandits. They have positions on political issues. > > > > When a Kashmiri is killed by Indian troops, instead of seeking justice > > from Indian state, people come together to forge a solidarity, they bear > > individual pain collectively. Take the example of Pathribal killings > when > > the police fired on Kashmiris protesting fake killings of five > Kashmiris, > > and seven more died. Why would Kashmiris allow such a thing to happen to > > themselves? > > > > The responsibility for the acts of militants, or armed Kashmiris, was > > shared equally by the Kashmiri society. It was quite evident in the way > > Kashmiris liberally funded the movement (many people gave away part of > their > > salaries, month after month, and from the returns from their trade), > > participated in popular protests on the call from militants, gave > shelter > > and food to militants, protested in thousands in funerals for militants, > and > > suffered individual and collective brutalities at the hands of Indian > army. > > Militants were seen as the soldiers of the Kashmiri nation, their > freedom > > fighters, not brigands or criminals. > > > > Kashmiris never participated in funerals for killed Indian soldiers. > Like > > the way people in India mourned the death of Indian soldiers. Kashmiris > have > > always seen Indian forces as occupation troops. Occupation: unlawful, > > illegitimate control of territories whose residents don't endorse or > > authorize that control. And by popularly and violently opposing Indian > rule > > in Kashmir, expressed in the slogans and motifs of the movement, a vast > > majority of Kashmiris declared their position. > > > > Now the incident referred to here: The Indian airmen, armed or unarmed, > > were part of the Indian state's most visible and brutal aspect, the > Indian > > defense. Logically, in war the enemy's soldiers, armed or unarmed, are > > legitimate targets. That is what they became. If Yasin Malik is hanged, > then > > those thousands of Indian soldiers who killed thousands of militants > should > > be hanged too. If he is forced to say sorry to India, then Indian > soldiers > > should say sorry to Kashmir. > > > > Kashmir's freedom movement is not a series of individual crimes. As > Indian > > states atrocities and brutalities are not acts of individual crimes by > > soldiers. They are political acts. In Kashmir they are seen as such. > > > > Personally I am against wars; but at the same time, I am against the > > appropriation of the right to violence by the state; and I especially > > despise this appropriation in occupied territories. > > > > Junaid > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:41:11 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:41:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On JKLF and Indian Airforce Personnel In-Reply-To: <32144e990709140159o73078feao99e72927c4d8f839@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914081533.12689.qmail@webmail73.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140140x15309ee2n8f4049e2ae0d8d60@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140159o73078feao99e72927c4d8f839@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709140211m77c6657fp16ecbdd42258cf7c@mail.gmail.com> As of now I am in an imposed Exile . An exile imposed by those who welcomed the Jihadis. On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > Interesting. > > You say that the 'people of Kashmir welcome him with...' > > Are you not counting yourself as a 'person of Kashmir'? And if you are, > why do you have any 'individual pain' > > More importantly, what does this have to do with Junaid's post which talks > about the construction of the armed struggle? > > Rgds, Partha > ......................... > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > And I can understand when a killer [ Bitta karate ] of 40 kashmiri > > pandits > > come out of jail, people in Kashmir welcome him with garlands and > > distribute > > sweet. > > > > Where does that imply bearing the individual pain collectively go ? > > > > All in the name of Supreme. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 08:15:33 -0000, junaid < justjunaid at rediffmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > The Indian state has entered the bodies of Pawan Duranis and Aditya > > Kauls > > > imperceptibly. When Mr. Durani or Mr. Kaul speaks, it is the voice of > > state, > > > as the sole provider of values, which comes out. The State says "My > > violence > > > is my right, and my right alone, but anyone who challenges this right, > > that > > > is my sovereignty, she/he/they should be deemed criminal, fit only to > > be > > > eliminated through the laws that I make." > > > > > > So Mr. Durani, who has unconsciously become the spokesman of the > > state, > > > and regurgitates its litanies, would be confounded if someone > > punctures his > > > seemingly coherent discourse by refusing to accept the legitimacy of > > the > > > state. He will label anti-national and unpatriotic people who don't > > accept > > > the state's "natural" logic. > > > > > > When Kashmiris started an armed struggle against Indian state, its > > main > > > actors, the militants were not separate from, what are mistakenly > > called, > > > civilians. No one is innocent in Kashmir, militants, "civilians", > > Indian > > > troops or officials, Pandits. They have positions on political issues. > > > > > > When a Kashmiri is killed by Indian troops, instead of seeking justice > > > from Indian state, people come together to forge a solidarity, they > > bear > > > individual pain collectively. Take the example of Pathribal killings > > when > > > the police fired on Kashmiris protesting fake killings of five > > Kashmiris, > > > and seven more died. Why would Kashmiris allow such a thing to happen > > to > > > themselves? > > > > > > The responsibility for the acts of militants, or armed Kashmiris, was > > > shared equally by the Kashmiri society. It was quite evident in the > > way > > > Kashmiris liberally funded the movement (many people gave away part of > > their > > > salaries, month after month, and from the returns from their trade), > > > participated in popular protests on the call from militants, gave > > shelter > > > and food to militants, protested in thousands in funerals for > > militants, and > > > suffered individual and collective brutalities at the hands of Indian > > army. > > > Militants were seen as the soldiers of the Kashmiri nation, their > > freedom > > > fighters, not brigands or criminals. > > > > > > Kashmiris never participated in funerals for killed Indian soldiers. > > Like > > > the way people in India mourned the death of Indian soldiers. > > Kashmiris have > > > always seen Indian forces as occupation troops. Occupation: unlawful, > > > illegitimate control of territories whose residents don't endorse or > > > authorize that control. And by popularly and violently opposing Indian > > rule > > > in Kashmir, expressed in the slogans and motifs of the movement, a > > vast > > > majority of Kashmiris declared their position. > > > > > > Now the incident referred to here: The Indian airmen, armed or > > unarmed, > > > were part of the Indian state's most visible and brutal aspect, the > > Indian > > > defense. Logically, in war the enemy's soldiers, armed or unarmed, are > > > legitimate targets. That is what they became. If Yasin Malik is > > hanged, then > > > those thousands of Indian soldiers who killed thousands of militants > > should > > > be hanged too. If he is forced to say sorry to India, then Indian > > soldiers > > > should say sorry to Kashmir. > > > > > > Kashmir's freedom movement is not a series of individual crimes. As > > Indian > > > states atrocities and brutalities are not acts of individual crimes by > > > > > soldiers. They are political acts. In Kashmir they are seen as such. > > > > > > Personally I am against wars; but at the same time, I am against the > > > appropriation of the right to violence by the state; and I especially > > > despise this appropriation in occupied territories. > > > > > > Junaid > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:53:26 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:53:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On JKLF and Indian Airforce Personnel In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709140211m77c6657fp16ecbdd42258cf7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914081533.12689.qmail@webmail73.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140140x15309ee2n8f4049e2ae0d8d60@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140159o73078feao99e72927c4d8f839@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140211m77c6657fp16ecbdd42258cf7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140223t7dbf99bblaffcfb27e0736c5d@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, You're welcome to withdraw, as that's a personal decision, just as joining this list was a personal decision. However, don't you think that actually having a point of view that is logically supported by facts and decisions a more sensible way to have a discussion. Any how, that's your choice. If 'exile' is what you want, you're welcome. At least you considered the Sarai post enough of a 'home' to feel 'exiled'. Rgds, Partha .......... On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > As of now I am in an imposed Exile . An exile imposed by those who > welcomed the Jihadis. > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > Interesting. > > > > You say that the 'people of Kashmir welcome him with...' > > > > Are you not counting yourself as a 'person of Kashmir'? And if you are, > > why do you have any 'individual pain' > > > > More importantly, what does this have to do with Junaid's post which > > talks about the construction of the armed struggle? > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ......................... > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > And I can understand when a killer [ Bitta karate ] of 40 kashmiri > > > pandits > > > come out of jail, people in Kashmir welcome him with garlands and > > > distribute > > > sweet. > > > > > > Where does that imply bearing the individual pain collectively go ? > > > > > > All in the name of Supreme. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 08:15:33 -0000, junaid < justjunaid at rediffmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indian state has entered the bodies of Pawan Duranis and Aditya > > > Kauls > > > > imperceptibly. When Mr. Durani or Mr. Kaul speaks, it is the voice > > > of state, > > > > as the sole provider of values, which comes out. The State says "My > > > violence > > > > is my right, and my right alone, but anyone who challenges this > > > right, that > > > > is my sovereignty, she/he/they should be deemed criminal, fit only > > > to be > > > > eliminated through the laws that I make." > > > > > > > > So Mr. Durani, who has unconsciously become the spokesman of the > > > state, > > > > and regurgitates its litanies, would be confounded if someone > > > punctures his > > > > seemingly coherent discourse by refusing to accept the legitimacy of > > > the > > > > state. He will label anti-national and unpatriotic people who don't > > > accept > > > > the state's "natural" logic. > > > > > > > > When Kashmiris started an armed struggle against Indian state, its > > > main > > > > actors, the militants were not separate from, what are mistakenly > > > called, > > > > civilians. No one is innocent in Kashmir, militants, "civilians", > > > Indian > > > > troops or officials, Pandits. They have positions on political > > > issues. > > > > > > > > When a Kashmiri is killed by Indian troops, instead of seeking > > > justice > > > > from Indian state, people come together to forge a solidarity, they > > > bear > > > > individual pain collectively. Take the example of Pathribal killings > > > when > > > > the police fired on Kashmiris protesting fake killings of five > > > Kashmiris, > > > > and seven more died. Why would Kashmiris allow such a thing to > > > happen to > > > > themselves? > > > > > > > > The responsibility for the acts of militants, or armed Kashmiris, > > > was > > > > shared equally by the Kashmiri society. It was quite evident in the > > > way > > > > Kashmiris liberally funded the movement (many people gave away part > > > of their > > > > salaries, month after month, and from the returns from their trade), > > > > participated in popular protests on the call from militants, gave > > > shelter > > > > and food to militants, protested in thousands in funerals for > > > militants, and > > > > suffered individual and collective brutalities at the hands of > > > Indian army. > > > > Militants were seen as the soldiers of the Kashmiri nation, their > > > freedom > > > > fighters, not brigands or criminals. > > > > > > > > Kashmiris never participated in funerals for killed Indian soldiers. > > > Like > > > > the way people in India mourned the death of Indian soldiers. > > > Kashmiris have > > > > always seen Indian forces as occupation troops. Occupation: > > > unlawful, > > > > illegitimate control of territories whose residents don't endorse or > > > > authorize that control. And by popularly and violently opposing > > > Indian rule > > > > in Kashmir, expressed in the slogans and motifs of the movement, a > > > vast > > > > majority of Kashmiris declared their position. > > > > > > > > Now the incident referred to here: The Indian airmen, armed or > > > unarmed, > > > > were part of the Indian state's most visible and brutal aspect, the > > > Indian > > > > defense. Logically, in war the enemy's soldiers, armed or unarmed, > > > are > > > > legitimate targets. That is what they became. If Yasin Malik is > > > hanged, then > > > > those thousands of Indian soldiers who killed thousands of militants > > > should > > > > be hanged too. If he is forced to say sorry to India, then Indian > > > soldiers > > > > should say sorry to Kashmir. > > > > > > > > Kashmir's freedom movement is not a series of individual crimes. As > > > Indian > > > > states atrocities and brutalities are not acts of individual crimes > > > by > > > > soldiers. They are political acts. In Kashmir they are seen as such. > > > > > > > > Personally I am against wars; but at the same time, I am against the > > > > appropriation of the right to violence by the state; and I > > > especially > > > > despise this appropriation in occupied territories. > > > > > > > > Junaid > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 14:58:33 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] ****************************************Shiva-Sakti in INDIA************************************* Message-ID: <135884.85635.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Readers, Finally by looking at the link just memorize the National Anthem. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg "Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayehe Bharata bhagya vidhata; Punjaba Sindhu Gujarata Maratha, Dravida Utkala Banga, Vindhya, Himachala, Jamuna, Ganga, Ucchhala Jaladhitaranga; Taba Shubha Naame Jaage Taba Shubha Ashish Maage Gaye taba jaya gaatha. Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayahe Bharata bhagya vidhata; Jaya he Jaye he Jaya Jaya Jaya Jaya he" Not only that but to support my argument on INDIA I use the following 2 1)--- सौराष्ट्रे सोमनाथं च श्रीशैले मल्लिकार्जुनम् । उज्जयिन्यां महाकालमोकांरममलेश्वरम् । परल्यां वैद्यनाथं च डाकिन्यां भीमशंकरम् । सेतुबंधे तु रामेशं नागेशं दारूकावने । वाराणस्यां तु विश्वेशं त्रयंम्बकं गौतमीतटे । हिमालये तु केदारं घुश्मेशं च शिवालये । ऐतानि ज्योतिर्लिंगानि सायं प्रातः पठेन्नरः । सप्तजन्मकृतं पापं स्मरणेन विनश्यति । - Dwadasa Jyotirlinga Stotra by Adi Shankaracharya (The twelve Jyotirlingas are- Somnath at Prabhas Patan, Saurashtra, Gujarat. Sri Mallikarjun in Srisailam, near Kurnool,Andhra Pradesh, on the banks of river Krishna.Adi Sankaracharya composed his Sivanandalahiri here. Mahakaleshwar in Ujjain(Avanti) ,Madhya Pradesh. Omkareshwar in Omkareshwar, Madhya Pradesh, this jyotirlinga is situated on an island in the course of the river Narmada. Vaidyanath temple at Deogarh,Santal Parganas area of Bihar. Bhimashankar in Dakini and located in the Sahyadri hills,near Pune, Maharashtra. Ramalingeswarar in Setubandanam , Tamilnadu.This is situated on vast temple island of Rameswaram.It is the southernmost of the 12 Jyotirlinga shrines of India. Nageshwar in Darukavanam, near Dwarka in Gujarat.But many strongly consider Nagesh as stated above. Vishwanath in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh. Tryambakeswar Jyotirlinga shrine is intimately linked with the origin of the river Godavari near Nasik, Maharashtra. Kedareswar in Kedarnath in Himalayas,Uttarakhand. Ghrishneshwar in Devasrovar,near Ellora,Aurangabad, Maharashtra.) 2) --------- The Shakti Peethas (places of strength) are places of worship consecrated to the goddess 'Shakti', the female principal of Hinduism and the main deity of the Shakta sect. They are sprinkled throughout the Indian subcontinent [1]. This goddess is often associated both with Gowrī/Parvati, the goddess of marital felicity and longevity, and with Durga, goddess of strength and valour. // [edit] Legend According to legend, at some time in the Satya Yuga, Daksha performed a yagna (named Vrihaspati) with a desire of taking revenge on Lord Shiva. Daksha was angry because his daughter Sati had married the 'yogi' God Shiva against his wishes. Daksha invited all the deities to the yagna except for Shiva and Sati. The fact that she was not invited did not deter Sati from attending the yagna. She had expressed her desire to attend to Shiva who had tried his best to dissuade her from going. Shiva eventually allowed her to go escorted by his ganas (followers). But Sati, being an uninvited guest, was not given any respect. Furthermore, Daksha insulted Shiva. Sati was unable to bear her father's insults toward her husband, so she committed suicide by jumping into the pyre. Enraged at the insult and the injury, Shiva destroyed Daksha's sacrifice, cut off Daksha's head, and replaced it with that of a goat as he restored him to life. Still crazed with grief, he picked up the remains of Sati's body, and danced the dance of destruction through the Universe. The other gods intervened to stop this dance, and the Vishnu's disk, or Sudarshana Chakra, cut through the corpse of Sati. The various parts of the body fell at several spots all through the Indian subcontinent and formed sites which are known as Shakti Peethas today. At all Shakti Peethas, the Goddess Shakti is accompanied by Lord Bhairava (a manifestation of Lord Shiva). [edit] Historical notes According to the manuscript old manuscript Mahapithapurana (circa 1690-1720 CE), there are 51 such places. Among them, 23 are located in the Bengal region. 14 of these are located in what is now West Bengal, India, while 7 are in what is now Bangladesh. Preserving the mortal relics of famous and respected individuals was a common practice in ancient India - seen in the Buddhist stupas which preserve the relics of Gautama Buddha. It is believed by some that these 51 peethas preserve the remains of some ancient female sage from whom the legend of Kali could have emerged and then merged with the Purusha- Prakriti (Shiva Shakti) model of Hindu thought. [edit] Locations The modern cities or towns that correspond to these 51 locations can be a matter of dispute, but there are a few that are totally unambiguous - for example, Kalighat in Kolkata/Calcutta and Kamakhya in Assam. According to the Pithanirnaya Tantra the 51 peethas are scattered all over India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Tibet and Pakistan. The Shivacharita besides listing 51 maha-peethas, speaks about 26 more upa-peethas. The Bengali almanac, Vishuddha Siddhanta Panjika too describes the 51 peethas including the present modified addresses. A few of the several accepted listings are given below.[2]. One of the few in South India, Srisailam in Andhra Pradesh became the site for a 2nd century temple. [3] In the listings: "Shakti" refers to the Goddess woshipped (invaribly, in this case, a manifestation of Dakshayani/Parvati/Durga); "Bhairava" refers to her consort, a manifestation of Shiva; "Organ or Ornament" refers to the body part or piece of jewellery that fell to earth, at the location on which the respective temple is built. [edit] The 51 Shakti Peethas Sr. No. Place Organ or Ornament Shakti Bhairava 1 Sri Lanka, in Nainativu, Jaffna Anklets Indrakshi / Nagapooshani / Bhuvaneswari Rakshaseshwar 2 Sharkrare, a little distance from Sukkur Station from Karachi, Pakistan Eyes Mahishmardini Krodhish 3 Sugandha, about 20 km from Barisal, Bangladesh at Shikarpur on banks of Sondh river Nose Sunanda Trayambak 4 Amarnath in Kashmir, India from Srinagar through Pahalgam 94 km by Bus, Chandanwari 16 km by walk Throat Mahamaya Trisandhyeshwar 5 Jwalamukhi, Kangra, India from Pathankot alight at Jwalamukhi Road Station from there 20 km Tongue Siddhida (Ambika) Unmatta Bhairav 6 Jalandhar, India from Jalandhar Cantonment Station to Devi Talab Left Breast Tripurmalini Bhishan 7 Ambaji, at Anart, Gujarat, India Heart Ambaji 8 Nepal, near Pashupatinath Temple at Gujyeshwari Temple Both Knees Mahashira Kapali 9 Manas, under Tibet at the feet of Mount Kailash in Lake Mansarovar, a piece of Stone Right Hand Dakshayani Amar 10 Biraja in Utkal present Orissa, India Navel Vimla Jagannath 11 Gandaki from Pokhara, Nepal about 125 km on the banks of Gandaki river where Muktinath temple is situated Temple Gandaki Chandi Chakrapani 12 Bahula, on the banks of Ajay river, at Ketugram 8 km from Katua, Burdwan, West Bengal, India Left Arm Goddess Bahula Bhiruk 13 Ujaani, 16 km from Guskura Station under Burdwan district of West Bengal, India Right Wrist Mangal Chandika Kapilambar 14 Udaipur, Tripura, at the top of the hills known as Tripura Sundari temple near Radhakishorepur village, a little distance away from Udaipur town of Tripura, India Right Leg Tripura Sundari Tripuresh 15 Chatral or Chôţţogram at the top of Chandranath hills near Sitakunda station of Chittagong district, Bangladesh Right Arm Bhawani Chandrashekhar 16 Trisrota, at Salbari village under Boda division of Jalpaiguri district, West Bengal, India Left Leg Bhraamari Ambar 17 Kamgiri, Kamakhya, at the Neelachal hills near Guwahati, capital of Assam, India Genital Organ Kamakhya Umanand 18 Jugaadya at Khirgram under Burdwan district, West Bengal, India Great Toe (Right) Jugaadya Ksheer Khandak 19 Kalipeeth, (Kalighat, Kolkata), India Right Toe Kalika Nakuleesh 20 Prayag near Sangam at Allahabad, Uttar Pradesh, India Finger (Hand) Lalita Bhava 21 Jayanti at Kalajore Bourbhog village of Khasi hills under Jayantia Parganas of Sylhet district, Bangladesh Left Thigh Jayanti Kramadishwar 22 Kireet at Kireetkona village, 3 km from Lalbag Court Road station under district Murshidabad, West Bengal, India Crown Vimla Sanwart 23 Varanasi at Manikarnika Ghat on banks of Ganga at Kashi, Uttar Pradesh, India Earring Vishalakshi & Manikarni Kalbhairav 24 Kanyashram, Kanyakumari the Bhadrakali temple within the precincts of Kumari temple, Tamil Nadu, India Back Sarvani Nimish 25 Present day Kurukshetra town or Thanesar ancient Sthaneshwar, at Haryana, India Ankle Bone Savitri Sthanu 26 Manibandh, at Gayatri hills near Pushkar 11 km towards north-west from Ajmer, Rajasthan, India Two Bracelets Gayatri Sarvanand 27 Shri Shail, at Jainpur village towards north-east 3 km from Sylhet town, Bangladesh Neck Mahalaxmi Sambaranand 28 Kankalitala, on the banks of Kopai river 10 km towards north-east from Bolpur station of district Birbhum, Devi locally known as KankaleshwariWest Bengal, India Bone Devgarbha Ruru 29 Kalmadhav on the banks of Shon river in a cave over hills near to Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, India Buttock (Left) Kali Asitang 30 Shondesh, at the source point of Narmada river in Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, India Buttock (Right) Narmada Bhadrasen 31 Ramgiri, at Chitrakuta on the Jhansi Manikpur Railway line in Uttar Pradesh, India Right Breast Shivani Chanda 32 Vrindavan, near new bus stand on Bhuteshwar road within Bhuteshwar Mahadev Temple, Vrindavan, Uttar Pradesh, India Ringlets of Hair Uma Bhutesh 33 Shuchi, in a Shiva temple at Shuchitirtham 11 km on Kanyakumari Trivandrum road, Tamil Nadu, India Teeth (Upper Jaw) Narayani Sanhar 34 Panchsagar place not known Teeth (Lower Jaw) Varahi Maharudra 35 Kartoyatat, at Bhawanipur village 28 km distance from interior Serpur. Alight at Bagura station under district Bagura, Bangladesh Left Anklet (Ornament) Arpana Vaman 36 Shri Parvat, near Ladak, Kashmir, India. Another belief: at Srisailam in Shriparvat hills under Karnool district, Andhra Pradesh, India Right Anklet (Ornament) Shrisundari Sundaranand 37 Vibhash, at Tamluk under district Purba Medinipur, West Bengal, India Left Ankle Kapalini (Bhimarupa) Sarvanand 38 Prabhas, 4 km distance from Veraval station near Somnath temple in Junagadh district of Gujarat, India Stomach Chandrabhaga Vakratund 39 Bhairavparvat, at Bhairav hills on the banks of Shipra river a little distance from Ujjaini town, Madhya Pradesh, India Upper Lips Avanti Lambkarna 40 Jansthan, at Godavari river valley near Nasik, Maharasthra, India Chin (Two Parts) Bhramari Vikritaksh 41 Sarvashail or Godavaritir, at Kotilingeswar temple on the banks of Godavari river near Rajamundry, Andhra Pradesh, India Cheeks Rakini or Vishweshwari Vatsnabh or Dandpani 42 Birat, near Bharatpur, Rajasthan, India Left Feet Fingers Ambika Amriteshwar 43 Ratnavali, on the banks of Ratnakar river at Khanakul-Krishnanagar, district Hooghly, West Bengal, India Right Shoulder Kumari Shiva 44 Mithila, near Janakpur Railway station on the boarder of India-Nepal Left Shoulder Uma Mahodar 45 Nalhati,Known as "Nalateshwari Temple" from Nalhati station of Birbhum district by Rickshaw, West Bengal, India Tubular Bones of the Feet Kalika Devi Yogesh 46 Karnat place not known Both Ears Jayadurga Abhiru 47 Vakreshwar, on the banks of Paaphara river, 24 km distance from Siuri Town, district Birbhum,7km from Dubrajpur Rly. Station West Bengal, India Portion between the eyebrows Mahishmardini Vakranath 48 Yashor, at Ishwaripur, district Khulna, Bangladesh Hands & Feet Yashoreshwari Chanda 49 Attahas [Village:Dakshindihi,Dt:Burdwan]].From Katwa Rly. Station by bus to "NIROL"(Approx 40Minutes).From there by Van rickshaw around 20 minutes to Attahas, West Bengal, India Lips Phullara Vishvesh 50 SAINTHIA. Locally Known as "Nandikeshwari" temple.Earlier Nandipur/Now in Sainthia Town. only 1.5 km from Railway Station under a Banyan tree within a boundary wall , district Birbhum, West Bengal, India Necklace Nandini Nandikeshwar 51 Hingula (Or Hinglaj), southern Baluchistan a few hours North-east of Gawadar and about 125 km towards North-west from Karachi, Pakistan Bramharandhra (Part of the head) Kottari Bhimlochan Fullara in Birbhum district is also considered to be a shakti peetha.[ Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 15:04:24 2007 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Film screening - 'Flowering of the Mind' Message-ID: <907292.82205.qm@web51403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Friends, Hi, you are invited to the screening of the documentary film Flowering of the Mind, 30 minutes on Friday, September 21, at 6:30pm at Gulmohar Hall, India Habitat centre Lodhi road, New Delhi Flowering of the Mind is an exploration of J. Krishnamurti's philosophy of education in the backdrop of Krishnamurti foundation schools where children are encouraged to discover the finer nuances of life along with academic excellence. An effort to explore how a child blossoms in an atmosphere of freedom- freedom from mindsets and preconcieved notions allowing her to to think freely and clearly. It is woven together through experiences and views of former and present students,parents and educationist-how they look at life at school where education is fun. Hope to see you regards sabia khan shastri (pl. forward this message to those who might be interested) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:09:16 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:09:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****************************************Shiva-Sakti in INDIA************************************* In-Reply-To: <135884.85635.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <135884.85635.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140239qfb8310crf38edcdd48256fad@mail.gmail.com> Dear Dhatri, 1. As someone who's done his schooling in India, I know the National Anthem and I don't need a link to memorise it. 2. What 'argument' on India. If you must make a reference, at least leave a link to the post here. 3. Your list of copied and pasted did have some information I didn't know, but I don't want to mug it up in any case, and can find it on the net when I need, as can any other member of this post since they have to have access to the net to access the post. 4. What was the purpose of this post? Promoting Indian Tourism? Wrong post & wrong audience. Rgds, Parha ................... On 9/14/07, we wi wrote: > > Dear Readers, > > Finally by looking at the link just memorize the National Anthem. > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > "Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayehe > Bharata bhagya vidhata; > Punjaba Sindhu Gujarata Maratha, > Dravida Utkala Banga, > Vindhya, Himachala, Jamuna, Ganga, > Ucchhala Jaladhitaranga; > Taba Shubha Naame Jaage > Taba Shubha Ashish Maage > Gaye taba jaya gaatha. > Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayahe > Bharata bhagya vidhata; > Jaya he Jaye he > Jaya Jaya Jaya Jaya he" > > Not only that but to support my argument on INDIA I use the > following 2 > 1)--- > सौराष्ट्रे सोमनाथं च श्रीशैले मल्लिकार्जुनम् । > उज्जयिन्यां महाकालमोकांरममलेश्वरम् । > परल्यां वैद्यनाथं च डाकिन्यां भीमशंकरम् । > सेतुबंधे तु रामेशं नागेशं दारूकावने । > वाराणस्यां तु विश्वेशं त्रयंम्बकं गौतमीतटे । > हिमालये तु केदारं घुश्मेशं च शिवालये । > ऐतानि ज्योतिर्लिंगानि सायं प्रातः पठेन्नरः । > सप्तजन्मकृतं पापं स्मरणेन विनश्यति । - Dwadasa Jyotirlinga Stotra by Adi > Shankaracharya > (The twelve Jyotirlingas are- > > Somnath at Prabhas Patan, Saurashtra, Gujarat. > Sri Mallikarjun in Srisailam, near Kurnool,Andhra Pradesh, on the banks > of river Krishna.Adi Sankaracharya composed his Sivanandalahiri here. > Mahakaleshwar in Ujjain(Avanti) ,Madhya Pradesh. > Omkareshwar in Omkareshwar, Madhya Pradesh, this jyotirlinga is > situated on an island in the course of the river Narmada. > Vaidyanath temple at Deogarh,Santal Parganas area of Bihar. > Bhimashankar in Dakini and located in the Sahyadri hills,near Pune, > Maharashtra. > Ramalingeswarar in Setubandanam , Tamilnadu.This is situated on vast > temple island of Rameswaram.It is the southernmost of the 12 Jyotirlinga > shrines of India. > Nageshwar in Darukavanam, near Dwarka in Gujarat.But many strongly > consider Nagesh as stated above. > Vishwanath in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh. > Tryambakeswar Jyotirlinga shrine is intimately linked with the origin > of the river Godavari near Nasik, Maharashtra. > > Kedareswar in Kedarnath in Himalayas,Uttarakhand. > Ghrishneshwar in Devasrovar,near Ellora,Aurangabad, Maharashtra.) > > 2) --------- > The Shakti Peethas (places of strength) are places of worship > consecrated to the goddess 'Shakti', the female principal of Hinduism and > the main deity of the Shakta sect. They are sprinkled throughout the Indian > subcontinent [1]. > This goddess is often associated both with Gowrī/Parvati, the goddess of > marital felicity and longevity, and with Durga, goddess of strength and > valour. > > > // > [edit] Legend According to legend, at some time in the Satya Yuga, > Daksha performed a yagna (named Vrihaspati) with a desire of taking revenge > on Lord Shiva. Daksha was angry because his daughter Sati had married the > 'yogi' God Shiva against his wishes. Daksha invited all the deities to the > yagna except for Shiva and Sati. The fact that she was not invited did not > deter Sati from attending the yagna. She had expressed her desire to attend > to Shiva who had tried his best to dissuade her from going. Shiva eventually > allowed her to go escorted by his ganas (followers). > But Sati, being an uninvited guest, was not given any respect. > Furthermore, Daksha insulted Shiva. Sati was unable to bear her father's > insults toward her husband, so she committed suicide by jumping into the > pyre. > Enraged at the insult and the injury, Shiva destroyed Daksha's > sacrifice, cut off Daksha's head, and replaced it with that of a goat as he > restored him to life. Still crazed with grief, he picked up the remains of > Sati's body, and danced the dance of destruction through the Universe. The > other gods intervened to stop this dance, and the Vishnu's disk, or > Sudarshana Chakra, cut through the corpse of Sati. The various parts of the > body fell at several spots all through the Indian subcontinent and formed > sites which are known as Shakti Peethas today. > At all Shakti Peethas, the Goddess Shakti is accompanied by Lord > Bhairava (a manifestation of Lord Shiva). > > [edit] Historical notes According to the manuscript old manuscript > Mahapithapurana (circa 1690-1720 CE), there are 51 such places. Among them, > 23 are located in the Bengal region. 14 of these are located in what is now > West Bengal, India, while 7 are in what is now Bangladesh. > Preserving the mortal relics of famous and respected individuals was a > common practice in ancient India - seen in the Buddhist stupas which > preserve the relics of Gautama Buddha. It is believed by some that these 51 > peethas preserve the remains of some ancient female sage from whom the > legend of Kali could have emerged and then merged with the Purusha- Prakriti > (Shiva Shakti) model of Hindu thought. > > [edit] Locations The modern cities or towns that correspond to these 51 > locations can be a matter of dispute, but there are a few that are totally > unambiguous - for example, Kalighat in Kolkata/Calcutta and Kamakhya in > Assam. According to the Pithanirnaya Tantra the 51 peethas are scattered all > over India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Tibet and Pakistan. The > Shivacharita besides listing 51 maha-peethas, speaks about 26 more > upa-peethas. The Bengali almanac, Vishuddha Siddhanta Panjika too describes > the 51 peethas including the present modified addresses. A few of the > several accepted listings are given below.[2]. One of the few in South > India, Srisailam in Andhra Pradesh became the site for a 2nd century temple. > [3] > In the listings: > > "Shakti" refers to the Goddess woshipped (invaribly, in this case, a > manifestation of Dakshayani/Parvati/Durga); > "Bhairava" refers to her consort, a manifestation of Shiva; > "Organ or Ornament" refers to the body part or piece of jewellery that > fell to earth, at the location on which the respective temple is built. > > [edit] The 51 Shakti Peethas Sr. No. Place Organ or > Ornament Shakti Bhairava 1 Sri Lanka, in Nainativu, > Jaffna Anklets Indrakshi / Nagapooshani / > Bhuvaneswari Rakshaseshwar 2 Sharkrare, a little distance from Sukkur > Station from Karachi, > Pakistan Eyes Mahishmardini Krodhish 3 Sugandha, about 20 km from > Barisal, Bangladesh at Shikarpur on banks of Sondh > river Nose Sunanda Trayambak 4 Amarnath in Kashmir, India from > Srinagar through Pahalgam 94 km by Bus, Chandanwari 16 km by > walk Throat Mahamaya Trisandhyeshwar 5 Jwalamukhi, Kangra, India from > Pathankot alight at Jwalamukhi Road Station from there 20 > km Tongue Siddhida (Ambika) Unmatta Bhairav 6 Jalandhar, India from > Jalandhar Cantonment Station to Devi Talab Left > Breast Tripurmalini Bhishan 7 Ambaji, at Anart, Gujarat, > India Heart Ambaji 8 Nepal, near Pashupatinath Temple at Gujyeshwari > Temple Both Knees Mahashira Kapali 9 Manas, under Tibet at the > feet of Mount Kailash in Lake Mansarovar, a piece of Stone Right > Hand Dakshayani Amar 10 Biraja in Utkal present Orissa, > India Navel Vimla Jagannath 11 Gandaki from Pokhara, Nepal about 125 > km on the banks of Gandaki river where Muktinath temple is > situated Temple Gandaki Chandi Chakrapani 12 Bahula, on the banks of > Ajay river, at Ketugram 8 km from Katua, Burdwan, West Bengal, India Left > Arm Goddess Bahula Bhiruk 13 Ujaani, 16 km from Guskura Station under > Burdwan district of West Bengal, India Right Wrist Mangal > Chandika Kapilambar 14 Udaipur, Tripura, at the top of the hills known > as Tripura Sundari temple near Radhakishorepur village, a little distance > away from Udaipur town of Tripura, India Right Leg Tripura > Sundari Tripuresh 15 Chatral or Chôţţogram at the top of Chandranath > hills near Sitakunda station of Chittagong district, Bangladesh Right > Arm Bhawani Chandrashekhar 16 Trisrota, at Salbari village under > Boda division of Jalpaiguri district, West Bengal, India Left > Leg Bhraamari Ambar 17 Kamgiri, Kamakhya, at the Neelachal hills near > Guwahati, capital of Assam, India Genital > Organ Kamakhya Umanand 18 Jugaadya at Khirgram under Burdwan district, > West Bengal, India Great Toe (Right) Jugaadya Ksheer > Khandak 19 Kalipeeth, (Kalighat, Kolkata), India Right > Toe Kalika Nakuleesh 20 Prayag near Sangam at Allahabad, Uttar > Pradesh, India Finger (Hand) Lalita Bhava 21 Jayanti at Kalajore > Bourbhog village of Khasi hills under Jayantia Parganas of Sylhet district, > Bangladesh Left Thigh Jayanti Kramadishwar 22 Kireet at Kireetkona > village, 3 km from Lalbag Court Road station under district Murshidabad, > West Bengal, India Crown Vimla Sanwart 23 Varanasi at Manikarnika > Ghat on banks of Ganga at Kashi, Uttar Pradesh, India Earring Vishalakshi > & Manikarni Kalbhairav 24 Kanyashram, Kanyakumari the Bhadrakali temple > within the precincts > of Kumari temple, Tamil Nadu, India Back Sarvani Nimish 25 Present > day Kurukshetra town or Thanesar ancient Sthaneshwar, at Haryana, > India Ankle Bone Savitri Sthanu 26 Manibandh, at Gayatri hills near > Pushkar 11 km towards north-west from Ajmer, Rajasthan, India Two > Bracelets Gayatri Sarvanand 27 Shri Shail, at Jainpur village towards > north-east 3 km from Sylhet town, > Bangladesh Neck Mahalaxmi Sambaranand 28 Kankalitala, on the banks of > Kopai river 10 km towards north-east from Bolpur station of district > Birbhum, Devi locally known as KankaleshwariWest Bengal, > India Bone Devgarbha Ruru 29 Kalmadhav on the banks of Shon river in > a cave over hills near to Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, India Buttock > (Left) Kali Asitang 30 Shondesh, at the source point of Narmada river > in Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, India Buttock > (Right) Narmada Bhadrasen 31 Ramgiri, at Chitrakuta on the Jhansi > Manikpur Railway line in Uttar Pradesh, India Right > Breast Shivani Chanda 32 Vrindavan, near new bus stand on Bhuteshwar > road within Bhuteshwar Mahadev Temple, Vrindavan, Uttar Pradesh, > India Ringlets of Hair Uma Bhutesh 33 Shuchi, in a Shiva temple at > Shuchitirtham 11 km on Kanyakumari Trivandrum road, Tamil Nadu, India Teeth > (Upper Jaw) Narayani Sanhar 34 Panchsagar place not known Teeth > (Lower Jaw) Varahi Maharudra 35 Kartoyatat, at Bhawanipur village 28 > km distance from interior Serpur. Alight at Bagura station under district > Bagura, Bangladesh Left Anklet (Ornament) Arpana Vaman 36 Shri > Parvat, near Ladak, Kashmir, India. Another belief: at Srisailam in > Shriparvat hills under Karnool district, Andhra Pradesh, India Right Anklet > (Ornament) Shrisundari Sundaranand 37 Vibhash, at Tamluk under > district Purba Medinipur, West Bengal, India Left Ankle Kapalini > (Bhimarupa) Sarvanand 38 Prabhas, 4 km distance from Veraval station > near Somnath temple in Junagadh district of > Gujarat, India Stomach Chandrabhaga Vakratund 39 Bhairavparvat, at > Bhairav hills on the banks of Shipra river a little distance from Ujjaini > town, Madhya Pradesh, India Upper Lips Avanti Lambkarna 40 Jansthan, > at Godavari river valley near Nasik, Maharasthra, India Chin (Two > Parts) Bhramari Vikritaksh 41 Sarvashail or Godavaritir, at > Kotilingeswar temple on the banks of Godavari river near Rajamundry, Andhra > Pradesh, India Cheeks Rakini or Vishweshwari Vatsnabh or > Dandpani 42 Birat, near Bharatpur, Rajasthan, India Left Feet > Fingers Ambika Amriteshwar 43 Ratnavali, on the banks of Ratnakar > river at Khanakul-Krishnanagar, district Hooghly, West Bengal, India Right > Shoulder Kumari Shiva 44 Mithila, near Janakpur Railway station on the > boarder of India-Nepal Left Shoulder Uma Mahodar 45 Nalhati,Known as > "Nalateshwari Temple" from Nalhati station of Birbhum district by Rickshaw, > West Bengal, India Tubular Bones of the Feet > Kalika Devi Yogesh 46 Karnat place not known Both > Ears Jayadurga Abhiru 47 Vakreshwar, on the banks of Paaphara river, > 24 km distance from Siuri Town, district Birbhum,7km from Dubrajpur Rly. > Station West Bengal, India Portion between the > eyebrows Mahishmardini Vakranath 48 Yashor, at Ishwaripur, district > Khulna, Bangladesh Hands & Feet Yashoreshwari Chanda 49 Attahas > [Village:Dakshindihi,Dt:Burdwan]].From Katwa Rly. Station by bus to > "NIROL"(Approx 40Minutes).From there by Van rickshaw around 20 minutes to > Attahas, West Bengal, India Lips Phullara Vishvesh 50 SAINTHIA. > Locally Known as "Nandikeshwari" temple.Earlier Nandipur/Now in Sainthia > Town. only 1.5 km from Railway Station under a Banyan tree within a > boundary wall , district Birbhum, West Bengal, > India Necklace Nandini Nandikeshwar 51 Hingula (Or Hinglaj), southern > Baluchistan a few hours North-east of Gawadar and about 125 km towards > North-west from Karachi, Pakistan > Bramharandhra (Part of the head) Kottari Bhimlochan > > Fullara in Birbhum district is also considered to be a shakti peetha.[ > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > > --------------------------------- > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Thu Sep 13 23:42:49 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:12:49 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Re: JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officerswere agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709131048x197470adib46406a45bf278b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709131048x197470adib46406a45bf278b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3940a7db66d5f045d4af62430ed1ea74@mail.xtdnet.nl> Dear Pawan, I feel quite safe in Shuddha's company despite being a woman and technically a Muslim and technically a citizen of this country called India. (I don't know Partha personally so I cannot vouch as confidently!) And it seems that either there is a problem with your eyes or there is a problem with your brain's processing and comprehension mechanisms but it has been repeatedly said that none of us are (I am assuming) fans of Yasin Malik's. Like Shuddha, I too condemn violence but also believe that when force is used against you and your voice is constantly being repressed to the extent that you silenced when you try to speak, in these situations, we should not be surprised is violence is taken recourse to. Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet cleaning liquid. Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. Durani's head refuses to go away! Best, Zainab On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:18:59 +0530, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Saddha Devi, > > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free man ? > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges against a > terrorist > has not been framed ? > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with "intellectuals" > leading it? > > If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand how safe the > Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > > Pawan > > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point that a >> woman >> > is molested , they are prone to it." >> > >> >> Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural that >> women should be 'prone' to being molested. >> >> I personally think that there is a world of a difference between the >> estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces in a >> combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a woman. >> >> No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially one in >> uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a situation of >> armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair target. If >> they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed forces. >> >> A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face and >> deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman does not >> make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, women do >> not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the streets >> of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most cities >> in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni suggests >> they are. >> >> By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what Pawan >> Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of people >> who will naturally face molestation in any and every circumstance, they >> are in his words "prone to it". >> >> It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan Durani >> is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to >> >> the kind obviously, who (logically following through his argument) >> thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, >> because, they "are prone to it". >> >> I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any >> circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. >> >> regards >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. >> > >> > People like you have zero nationalism and negative intellectualism. >> > >> > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care even > for >> the >> > martyrs of his country. >> > >> > >> > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: >> > >> >>Hi, >> >> >> >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have some >> >>questions >> >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? >> >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a part > of >> >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be >> >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that they'll be >> >> targetted by militants >> >> >> >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point of >> view. >> >> >> >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post is > not >> >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his mind >> >> and make him apologise. >> >> >> >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated people as >> >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we > know >> >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs to > be >> >>faced >> >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it by >> >>hate. >> >> >> >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in since >> >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to the > US >> >> and Ireland >> >> >> >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what you're >> >>trying to say, >> >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should > include >> >>the debate. >> >> >> >>Rgds, Partha >> >>.................... >> >> >> >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some >> argument................god >> >>>Bless India. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News >> >>>> >> >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's >> >>> >> >>>misfortune >> >>> >> >>>>was that he was in uniform. >> >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were > waiting >> >>> >> >>>>near >> >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach them > to >> >>> >> >>>the >> >>> >> >>>>airport. >> >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying four > to >> >>>>five >> >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next thing >> >>> >> >>>that >> >>> >> >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last > thing >> >>> >> >>>he >> >>> >> >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were injured. >> >>> >> >>>Hardly >> >>> >> >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a > head >> >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles remained >> >>> >> >>>silent >> >>> >> >>>>as >> >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a > clockwise >> >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into > Srinagar's >> >>>>numerous back lanes. >> >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to > defend >> >>> >> >>>the >> >>> >> >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were the >> >>>>agents >> >>>>of the 'enemy'. * >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>*-- >> >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul >> >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com >> >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >> >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org >> >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* >> >>>>_________________________________________ >> >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>>>Critiques & Collaborations >> >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>>>subscribe in the subject header. >> >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>>>List archive: >> >>> >> >>>_________________________________________ >> >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>>Critiques & Collaborations >> >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>>subscribe in the subject header. >> >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>>List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >> >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) >> >>http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Fri Sep 14 10:27:00 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 06:57:00 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Re: JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officerswere agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709132010p7f99108fs4c877b58bcf22f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709132010p7f99108fs4c877b58bcf22f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <78f5ab026716676afece88c17bc5057e@mail.xtdnet.nl> Dear Pawan, God bless you! Peace be with you! India is great! Jai bharat! Jai bharat mata! Jai Bharat mata ke Pawan putra! Jai seeta ram! Jai ram ram! Jai hindustan! Jai hindu! Happy???? Z On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:40:42 +0530, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Zainab , > > And do you have anything else stuck up as well ? > > > > > On 9/13/07, zainab wrote: >> >> Dear Pawan, >> >> I feel quite safe in Shuddha's company despite being a woman and >> technically a Muslim and technically a citizen of this country called >> India. (I don't know Partha personally so I cannot vouch as > confidently!) >> >> And it seems that either there is a problem with your eyes or there is a >> problem with your brain's processing and comprehension mechanisms but it >> has been repeatedly said that none of us are (I am assuming) fans of > Yasin >> Malik's. Like Shuddha, I too condemn violence but also believe that when >> force is used against you and your voice is constantly being repressed > to >> the extent that you silenced when you try to speak, in these situations, >> we >> should not be surprised is violence is taken recourse to. >> >> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet cleaning liquid. >> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. Durani's head >> refuses >> to go away! >> >> Best, >> >> Zainab >> >> >> On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:18:59 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > >> wrote: >> > Saddha Devi, >> > >> > You have a basic problem with patriotism. >> > >> > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? >> > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free man ? >> > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges against a >> > terrorist >> > has not been framed ? >> > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with > "intellectuals" >> > leading it? >> > >> > If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand how safe >> the >> > Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> > >> >> Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point > that >> a >> >> woman >> >> > is molested , they are prone to it." >> >> > >> >> >> >> Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural that >> >> women should be 'prone' to being molested. >> >> >> >> I personally think that there is a world of a difference between the >> >> estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces in a >> >> combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a > woman. >> >> >> >> No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially one in >> >> uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a situation of >> >> armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair target. > If >> >> they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed forces. >> >> >> >> A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face and >> >> deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman does not >> >> make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, women > do >> >> not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the > streets >> >> of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most > cities >> >> in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni > suggests >> >> they are. >> >> >> >> By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what Pawan >> >> Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of > people >> >> who will naturally face molestation in any and every circumstance, > they >> >> are in his words "prone to it". >> >> >> >> It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan Durani >> >> is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to >> >> >> >> the kind obviously, who (logically following through his argument) >> >> thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, >> >> because, they "are prone to it". >> >> >> >> I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any >> >> circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. >> >> > >> >> > People like you have zero nationalism and negative intellectualism. >> >> > >> >> > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care > even >> > for >> >> the >> >> > martyrs of his country. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: >> >> > >> >> >>Hi, >> >> >> >> >> >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have some >> >> >>questions >> >> >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? >> >> >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a > part >> > of >> >> >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be >> >> >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that they'll >> be >> >> >> targetted by militants >> >> >> >> >> >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point > of >> >> view. >> >> >> >> >> >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post is >> > not >> >> >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his > mind >> >> >> and make him apologise. >> >> >> >> >> >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated people >> as >> >> >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we >> > know >> >> >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs > to >> > be >> >> >>faced >> >> >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it > by >> >> >>hate. >> >> >> >> >> >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in >> since >> >> >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to > the >> > US >> >> >> and Ireland >> >> >> >> >> >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what > you're >> >> >>trying to say, >> >> >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should >> > include >> >> >>the debate. >> >> >> >> >> >>Rgds, Partha >> >> >>.................... >> >> >> >> >> >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some >> >> argument................god >> >> >>>Bless India. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's >> >> >>> >> >> >>>misfortune >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>was that he was in uniform. >> >> >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were >> > waiting >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>near >> >> >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach > them >> > to >> >> >>> >> >> >>>the >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>airport. >> >> >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying > four >> > to >> >> >>>>five >> >> >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next >> thing >> >> >>> >> >> >>>that >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last >> > thing >> >> >>> >> >> >>>he >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were > injured. >> >> >>> >> >> >>>Hardly >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a >> > head >> >> >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles > remained >> >> >>> >> >> >>>silent >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>as >> >> >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a >> > clockwise >> >> >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into >> > Srinagar's >> >> >>>>numerous back lanes. >> >> >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to >> > defend >> >> >>> >> >> >>>the >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were >> the >> >> >>>>agents >> >> >>>>of the 'enemy'. * >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>*-- >> >> >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com >> >> >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >> >> >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org >> >> >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* >> >> >>>>_________________________________________ >> >> >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >>>>Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >>>>subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >>>>To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>>>List archive: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>_________________________________________ >> >> >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >>>Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >>>subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >>>To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>>List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >> >> >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) >> >> >>http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:47:11 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:47:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On JKLF and Indian Airforce Personnel In-Reply-To: <32144e990709140223t7dbf99bblaffcfb27e0736c5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914081533.12689.qmail@webmail73.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140140x15309ee2n8f4049e2ae0d8d60@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140159o73078feao99e72927c4d8f839@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140211m77c6657fp16ecbdd42258cf7c@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140223t7dbf99bblaffcfb27e0736c5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709140317q2875c78fo4361b311e8712e57@mail.gmail.com> Partha , Thats your idea of understanding. What did you understand by my refering the word "Exile?" Pawan On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > You're welcome to withdraw, as that's a personal decision, just as joining > this list was a personal decision. > > However, don't you think that actually having a point of view that is > logically supported by facts and decisions a more sensible way to have a > discussion. > > Any how, that's your choice. If 'exile' is what you want, you're welcome. > > At least you considered the Sarai post enough of a 'home' to feel > 'exiled'. > > Rgds, Partha > .......... > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > As of now I am in an imposed Exile . An exile imposed by those who > > welcomed the Jihadis. > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > Interesting. > > > > > > You say that the 'people of Kashmir welcome him with...' > > > > > > Are you not counting yourself as a 'person of Kashmir'? And if you > > > are, why do you have any 'individual pain' > > > > > > More importantly, what does this have to do with Junaid's post which > > > talks about the construction of the armed struggle? > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ......................... > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > And I can understand when a killer [ Bitta karate ] of 40 kashmiri > > > > pandits > > > > come out of jail, people in Kashmir welcome him with garlands and > > > > distribute > > > > sweet. > > > > > > > > Where does that imply bearing the individual pain collectively go ? > > > > > > > > All in the name of Supreme. > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 08:15:33 -0000, junaid < justjunaid at rediffmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indian state has entered the bodies of Pawan Duranis and > > > > Aditya Kauls > > > > > imperceptibly. When Mr. Durani or Mr. Kaul speaks, it is the voice > > > > of state, > > > > > as the sole provider of values, which comes out. The State says > > > > "My violence > > > > > is my right, and my right alone, but anyone who challenges this > > > > right, that > > > > > is my sovereignty, she/he/they should be deemed criminal, fit only > > > > to be > > > > > eliminated through the laws that I make." > > > > > > > > > > So Mr. Durani, who has unconsciously become the spokesman of the > > > > state, > > > > > and regurgitates its litanies, would be confounded if someone > > > > punctures his > > > > > seemingly coherent discourse by refusing to accept the legitimacy > > > > of the > > > > > state. He will label anti-national and unpatriotic people who > > > > don't accept > > > > > the state's "natural" logic. > > > > > > > > > > When Kashmiris started an armed struggle against Indian state, its > > > > main > > > > > actors, the militants were not separate from, what are mistakenly > > > > called, > > > > > civilians. No one is innocent in Kashmir, militants, "civilians", > > > > Indian > > > > > troops or officials, Pandits. They have positions on political > > > > issues. > > > > > > > > > > When a Kashmiri is killed by Indian troops, instead of seeking > > > > justice > > > > > from Indian state, people come together to forge a solidarity, > > > > they bear > > > > > individual pain collectively. Take the example of Pathribal > > > > killings when > > > > > the police fired on Kashmiris protesting fake killings of five > > > > Kashmiris, > > > > > and seven more died. Why would Kashmiris allow such a thing to > > > > happen to > > > > > themselves? > > > > > > > > > > The responsibility for the acts of militants, or armed Kashmiris, > > > > was > > > > > shared equally by the Kashmiri society. It was quite evident in > > > > the way > > > > > Kashmiris liberally funded the movement (many people gave away > > > > part of their > > > > > salaries, month after month, and from the returns from their > > > > trade), > > > > > participated in popular protests on the call from militants, gave > > > > shelter > > > > > and food to militants, protested in thousands in funerals for > > > > militants, and > > > > > suffered individual and collective brutalities at the hands of > > > > Indian army. > > > > > Militants were seen as the soldiers of the Kashmiri nation, their > > > > freedom > > > > > fighters, not brigands or criminals. > > > > > > > > > > Kashmiris never participated in funerals for killed Indian > > > > soldiers. Like > > > > > the way people in India mourned the death of Indian soldiers. > > > > Kashmiris have > > > > > always seen Indian forces as occupation troops. Occupation: > > > > unlawful, > > > > > illegitimate control of territories whose residents don't endorse > > > > or > > > > > authorize that control. And by popularly and violently opposing > > > > Indian rule > > > > > in Kashmir, expressed in the slogans and motifs of the movement, a > > > > vast > > > > > majority of Kashmiris declared their position. > > > > > > > > > > Now the incident referred to here: The Indian airmen, armed or > > > > unarmed, > > > > > were part of the Indian state's most visible and brutal aspect, > > > > the Indian > > > > > defense. Logically, in war the enemy's soldiers, armed or unarmed, > > > > are > > > > > legitimate targets. That is what they became. If Yasin Malik is > > > > hanged, then > > > > > those thousands of Indian soldiers who killed thousands of > > > > militants should > > > > > be hanged too. If he is forced to say sorry to India, then Indian > > > > soldiers > > > > > should say sorry to Kashmir. > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's freedom movement is not a series of individual crimes. > > > > As Indian > > > > > states atrocities and brutalities are not acts of individual > > > > crimes by > > > > > soldiers. They are political acts. In Kashmir they are seen as > > > > such. > > > > > > > > > > Personally I am against wars; but at the same time, I am against > > > > the > > > > > appropriation of the right to violence by the state; and I > > > > especially > > > > > despise this appropriation in occupied territories. > > > > > > > > > > Junaid > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:49:36 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:49:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****************************************Shiva-Sakti in INDIA************************************* In-Reply-To: <32144e990709140239qfb8310crf38edcdd48256fad@mail.gmail.com> References: <135884.85635.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990709140239qfb8310crf38edcdd48256fad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709140319m2072c777n9dbcd3a06e5f31fe@mail.gmail.com> Dear Dhatri , Anything related to India and rich Indian ethos which evokes nationalism is a unwelcome gesture to SAP. Pawan On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Dear Dhatri, > > 1. As someone who's done his schooling in India, I know the National > Anthem > and I don't need a link to memorise it. > > 2. What 'argument' on India. If you must make a reference, at least leave > a > link > to the post here. > > 3. Your list of copied and pasted did have some information I didn't > know, > but > I don't want to mug it up in any case, and can find it on the net when > I need, > as can any other member of this post since they have to have access to > the > net to access the post. > > 4. What was the purpose of this post? Promoting Indian Tourism? > Wrong post & wrong audience. > > Rgds, Parha > ................... > > On 9/14/07, we wi wrote: > > > > Dear Readers, > > > > Finally by looking at the link just memorize the National Anthem. > > > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > > > > "Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayehe > > Bharata bhagya vidhata; > > Punjaba Sindhu Gujarata Maratha, > > Dravida Utkala Banga, > > Vindhya, Himachala, Jamuna, Ganga, > > Ucchhala Jaladhitaranga; > > Taba Shubha Naame Jaage > > Taba Shubha Ashish Maage > > Gaye taba jaya gaatha. > > Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayahe > > Bharata bhagya vidhata; > > Jaya he Jaye he > > Jaya Jaya Jaya Jaya he" > > > > Not only that but to support my argument on INDIA I use the > > following 2 > > 1)--- > > सौराष्ट्रे सोमनाथं च श्रीशैले मल्लिकार्जुनम् । > > उज्जयिन्यां महाकालमोकांरममलेश्वरम् । > > परल्यां वैद्यनाथं च डाकिन्यां भीमशंकरम् । > > सेतुबंधे तु रामेशं नागेशं दारूकावने । > > वाराणस्यां तु विश्वेशं त्रयंम्बकं गौतमीतटे । > > हिमालये तु केदारं घुश्मेशं च शिवालये । > > ऐतानि ज्योतिर्लिंगानि सायं प्रातः पठेन्नरः । > > सप्तजन्मकृतं पापं स्मरणेन विनश्यति । - Dwadasa Jyotirlinga Stotra by > Adi > > Shankaracharya > > (The twelve Jyotirlingas are- > > > > Somnath at Prabhas Patan, Saurashtra, Gujarat. > > Sri Mallikarjun in Srisailam, near Kurnool,Andhra Pradesh, on the > banks > > of river Krishna.Adi Sankaracharya composed his Sivanandalahiri here. > > Mahakaleshwar in Ujjain(Avanti) ,Madhya Pradesh. > > Omkareshwar in Omkareshwar, Madhya Pradesh, this jyotirlinga is > > situated on an island in the course of the river Narmada. > > Vaidyanath temple at Deogarh,Santal Parganas area of Bihar. > > Bhimashankar in Dakini and located in the Sahyadri hills,near Pune, > > Maharashtra. > > Ramalingeswarar in Setubandanam , Tamilnadu.This is situated on vast > > temple island of Rameswaram.It is the southernmost of the 12 Jyotirlinga > > shrines of India. > > Nageshwar in Darukavanam, near Dwarka in Gujarat.But many strongly > > consider Nagesh as stated above. > > Vishwanath in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh. > > Tryambakeswar Jyotirlinga shrine is intimately linked with the origin > > of the river Godavari near Nasik, Maharashtra. > > > > Kedareswar in Kedarnath in Himalayas,Uttarakhand. > > Ghrishneshwar in Devasrovar,near Ellora,Aurangabad, Maharashtra.) > > > > 2) --------- > > The Shakti Peethas (places of strength) are places of worship > > consecrated to the goddess 'Shakti', the female principal of Hinduism > and > > the main deity of the Shakta sect. They are sprinkled throughout the > Indian > > subcontinent [1]. > > This goddess is often associated both with Gowrī/Parvati, the goddess > of > > marital felicity and longevity, and with Durga, goddess of strength and > > valour. > > > > > > // > > [edit] Legend According to legend, at some time in the Satya Yuga, > > Daksha performed a yagna (named Vrihaspati) with a desire of taking > revenge > > on Lord Shiva. Daksha was angry because his daughter Sati had married > the > > 'yogi' God Shiva against his wishes. Daksha invited all the deities to > the > > yagna except for Shiva and Sati. The fact that she was not invited did > not > > deter Sati from attending the yagna. She had expressed her desire to > attend > > to Shiva who had tried his best to dissuade her from going. Shiva > eventually > > allowed her to go escorted by his ganas (followers). > > But Sati, being an uninvited guest, was not given any respect. > > Furthermore, Daksha insulted Shiva. Sati was unable to bear her father's > > insults toward her husband, so she committed suicide by jumping into the > > pyre. > > Enraged at the insult and the injury, Shiva destroyed Daksha's > > sacrifice, cut off Daksha's head, and replaced it with that of a goat as > he > > restored him to life. Still crazed with grief, he picked up the remains > of > > Sati's body, and danced the dance of destruction through the Universe. > The > > other gods intervened to stop this dance, and the Vishnu's disk, or > > Sudarshana Chakra, cut through the corpse of Sati. The various parts of > the > > body fell at several spots all through the Indian subcontinent and > formed > > sites which are known as Shakti Peethas today. > > At all Shakti Peethas, the Goddess Shakti is accompanied by Lord > > Bhairava (a manifestation of Lord Shiva). > > > > [edit] Historical notes According to the manuscript old manuscript > > Mahapithapurana (circa 1690-1720 CE), there are 51 such places. Among > them, > > 23 are located in the Bengal region. 14 of these are located in what is > now > > West Bengal, India, while 7 are in what is now Bangladesh. > > Preserving the mortal relics of famous and respected individuals was a > > common practice in ancient India - seen in the Buddhist stupas which > > preserve the relics of Gautama Buddha. It is believed by some that these > 51 > > peethas preserve the remains of some ancient female sage from whom the > > legend of Kali could have emerged and then merged with the Purusha- > Prakriti > > (Shiva Shakti) model of Hindu thought. > > > > [edit] Locations The modern cities or towns that correspond to these > 51 > > locations can be a matter of dispute, but there are a few that are > totally > > unambiguous - for example, Kalighat in Kolkata/Calcutta and Kamakhya in > > Assam. According to the Pithanirnaya Tantra the 51 peethas are scattered > all > > over India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Tibet and Pakistan. The > > Shivacharita besides listing 51 maha-peethas, speaks about 26 more > > upa-peethas. The Bengali almanac, Vishuddha Siddhanta Panjika too > describes > > the 51 peethas including the present modified addresses. A few of the > > several accepted listings are given below.[2]. One of the few in South > > India, Srisailam in Andhra Pradesh became the site for a 2nd century > temple. > > [3] > > In the listings: > > > > "Shakti" refers to the Goddess woshipped (invaribly, in this case, a > > manifestation of Dakshayani/Parvati/Durga); > > "Bhairava" refers to her consort, a manifestation of Shiva; > > "Organ or Ornament" refers to the body part or piece of jewellery > that > > fell to earth, at the location on which the respective temple is built. > > > > [edit] The 51 Shakti Peethas Sr. No. Place Organ or > > Ornament Shakti Bhairava 1 Sri Lanka, in Nainativu, > > Jaffna Anklets Indrakshi / Nagapooshani / > > Bhuvaneswari Rakshaseshwar 2 Sharkrare, a little distance from > Sukkur > > Station from Karachi, > > Pakistan Eyes Mahishmardini Krodhish 3 Sugandha, about 20 km from > > Barisal, Bangladesh at Shikarpur on banks of Sondh > > river Nose Sunanda Trayambak 4 Amarnath in Kashmir, India from > > Srinagar through Pahalgam 94 km by Bus, Chandanwari 16 km by > > walk Throat Mahamaya Trisandhyeshwar 5 Jwalamukhi, Kangra, India > from > > Pathankot alight at Jwalamukhi Road Station from there 20 > > km Tongue Siddhida (Ambika) Unmatta Bhairav 6 Jalandhar, India > from > > Jalandhar Cantonment Station to Devi Talab Left > > Breast Tripurmalini Bhishan 7 Ambaji, at Anart, Gujarat, > > India Heart Ambaji 8 Nepal, near Pashupatinath Temple at > Gujyeshwari > > Temple Both Knees Mahashira Kapali 9 Manas, under Tibet at the > > feet of Mount Kailash in Lake Mansarovar, a piece of Stone Right > > Hand Dakshayani Amar 10 Biraja in Utkal present Orissa, > > India Navel Vimla Jagannath 11 Gandaki from Pokhara, Nepal about > 125 > > km on the banks of Gandaki river where Muktinath temple is > > situated Temple Gandaki Chandi Chakrapani 12 Bahula, on the banks > of > > Ajay river, at Ketugram 8 km from Katua, Burdwan, West Bengal, > India Left > > Arm Goddess Bahula Bhiruk 13 Ujaani, 16 km from Guskura Station > under > > Burdwan district of West Bengal, India Right Wrist Mangal > > Chandika Kapilambar 14 Udaipur, Tripura, at the top of the hills > known > > as Tripura Sundari temple near Radhakishorepur village, a little > distance > > away from Udaipur town of Tripura, India Right Leg Tripura > > Sundari Tripuresh 15 Chatral or Chôţţogram at the top of > Chandranath > > hills near Sitakunda station of Chittagong district, Bangladesh Right > > Arm Bhawani Chandrashekhar 16 Trisrota, at Salbari village under > > Boda division of Jalpaiguri district, West Bengal, India Left > > Leg Bhraamari Ambar 17 Kamgiri, Kamakhya, at the Neelachal hills > near > > Guwahati, capital of Assam, India Genital > > Organ Kamakhya Umanand 18 Jugaadya at Khirgram under Burdwan > district, > > West Bengal, India Great Toe (Right) Jugaadya Ksheer > > Khandak 19 Kalipeeth, (Kalighat, Kolkata), India Right > > Toe Kalika Nakuleesh 20 Prayag near Sangam at Allahabad, Uttar > > Pradesh, India Finger (Hand) Lalita Bhava 21 Jayanti at Kalajore > > Bourbhog village of Khasi hills under Jayantia Parganas of Sylhet > district, > > Bangladesh Left Thigh Jayanti Kramadishwar 22 Kireet at > Kireetkona > > village, 3 km from Lalbag Court Road station under district Murshidabad, > > West Bengal, India Crown Vimla Sanwart 23 Varanasi at Manikarnika > > Ghat on banks of Ganga at Kashi, Uttar Pradesh, > India Earring Vishalakshi > > & Manikarni Kalbhairav 24 Kanyashram, Kanyakumari the Bhadrakali > temple > > within the precincts > > of Kumari temple, Tamil Nadu, > India Back Sarvani Nimish 25 Present > > day Kurukshetra town or Thanesar ancient Sthaneshwar, at Haryana, > > India Ankle Bone Savitri Sthanu 26 Manibandh, at Gayatri hills > near > > Pushkar 11 km towards north-west from Ajmer, Rajasthan, India Two > > Bracelets Gayatri Sarvanand 27 Shri Shail, at Jainpur village > towards > > north-east 3 km from Sylhet town, > > Bangladesh Neck Mahalaxmi Sambaranand 28 Kankalitala, on the > banks of > > Kopai river 10 km towards north-east from Bolpur station of district > > Birbhum, Devi locally known as KankaleshwariWest Bengal, > > India Bone Devgarbha Ruru 29 Kalmadhav on the banks of Shon river > in > > a cave over hills near to Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, India Buttock > > (Left) Kali Asitang 30 Shondesh, at the source point of Narmada > river > > in Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, India Buttock > > (Right) Narmada Bhadrasen 31 Ramgiri, at Chitrakuta on the Jhansi > > Manikpur Railway line in Uttar Pradesh, India Right > > Breast Shivani Chanda 32 Vrindavan, near new bus stand on > Bhuteshwar > > road within Bhuteshwar Mahadev Temple, Vrindavan, Uttar Pradesh, > > India Ringlets of Hair Uma Bhutesh 33 Shuchi, in a Shiva temple > at > > Shuchitirtham 11 km on Kanyakumari Trivandrum road, Tamil Nadu, > India Teeth > > (Upper Jaw) Narayani Sanhar 34 Panchsagar place not known Teeth > > (Lower Jaw) Varahi Maharudra 35 Kartoyatat, at Bhawanipur village > 28 > > km distance from interior Serpur. Alight at Bagura station under > district > > Bagura, Bangladesh Left Anklet (Ornament) Arpana Vaman 36 Shri > > Parvat, near Ladak, Kashmir, India. Another belief: at Srisailam in > > Shriparvat hills under Karnool district, Andhra Pradesh, India Right > Anklet > > (Ornament) Shrisundari Sundaranand 37 Vibhash, at Tamluk under > > district Purba Medinipur, West Bengal, India Left Ankle Kapalini > > (Bhimarupa) Sarvanand 38 Prabhas, 4 km distance from Veraval > station > > near Somnath temple in Junagadh district of > > Gujarat, India Stomach Chandrabhaga Vakratund 39 Bhairavparvat, > at > > Bhairav hills on the banks of Shipra river a little distance from > Ujjaini > > town, Madhya Pradesh, India Upper > Lips Avanti Lambkarna 40 Jansthan, > > at Godavari river valley near Nasik, Maharasthra, India Chin (Two > > Parts) Bhramari Vikritaksh 41 Sarvashail or Godavaritir, at > > Kotilingeswar temple on the banks of Godavari river near Rajamundry, > Andhra > > Pradesh, India Cheeks Rakini or Vishweshwari Vatsnabh or > > Dandpani 42 Birat, near Bharatpur, Rajasthan, India Left Feet > > Fingers Ambika Amriteshwar 43 Ratnavali, on the banks of Ratnakar > > river at Khanakul-Krishnanagar, district Hooghly, West Bengal, > India Right > > Shoulder Kumari Shiva 44 Mithila, near Janakpur Railway station on > the > > boarder of India-Nepal Left Shoulder Uma Mahodar 45 Nalhati,Known > as > > "Nalateshwari Temple" from Nalhati station of Birbhum district by > Rickshaw, > > West Bengal, India Tubular Bones of the Feet > > Kalika Devi Yogesh 46 Karnat place not known Both > > Ears Jayadurga Abhiru 47 Vakreshwar, on the banks of Paaphara > river, > > 24 km distance from Siuri Town, district Birbhum,7km from Dubrajpur Rly. > > Station West Bengal, India Portion between the > > eyebrows Mahishmardini Vakranath 48 Yashor, at Ishwaripur, > district > > Khulna, Bangladesh Hands & Feet Yashoreshwari Chanda 49 Attahas > > [Village:Dakshindihi,Dt:Burdwan]].From Katwa Rly. Station by bus to > > "NIROL"(Approx 40Minutes).From there by Van rickshaw around 20 minutes > to > > Attahas, West Bengal, India Lips Phullara Vishvesh 50 SAINTHIA. > > Locally Known as "Nandikeshwari" temple.Earlier Nandipur/Now in Sainthia > > Town. only 1.5 km from Railway Station under a Banyan tree within a > > boundary wall , district Birbhum, West Bengal, > > India Necklace Nandini Nandikeshwar 51 Hingula (Or Hinglaj), > southern > > Baluchistan a few hours North-east of Gawadar and about 125 km towards > > North-west from Karachi, Pakistan > > Bramharandhra (Part of the head) Kottari Bhimlochan > > > > Fullara in Birbhum district is also considered to be a shakti > peetha.[ > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:52:38 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:52:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On JKLF and Indian Airforce Personnel In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709140317q2875c78fo4361b311e8712e57@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914081533.12689.qmail@webmail73.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140140x15309ee2n8f4049e2ae0d8d60@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140159o73078feao99e72927c4d8f839@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140211m77c6657fp16ecbdd42258cf7c@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140223t7dbf99bblaffcfb27e0736c5d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140317q2875c78fo4361b311e8712e57@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140322p6b8120bveb0ecbff5440117e@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, If you're asking what I understand from your word 'exile', the answer is that realising that your argument has no basis in logic or reason or fact you've taken the easy way out and ducked the issue. In all the exchanges we've had, you haven't been able to support any issue by fact or reason and take refuge in platitudes. Rgds, Partha On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Partha , > > Thats your idea of understanding. > > What did you understand by my refering the word "Exile?" > > Pawan > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > You're welcome to withdraw, as that's a personal decision, just as > > joining this list was a personal decision. > > > > However, don't you think that actually having a point of view that is > > logically supported by facts and decisions a more sensible way to have a > > discussion. > > > > Any how, that's your choice. If 'exile' is what you want, you're > > welcome. > > > > At least you considered the Sarai post enough of a 'home' to feel > > 'exiled'. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .......... > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > As of now I am in an imposed Exile . An exile imposed by those who > > > welcomed the Jihadis. > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > Interesting. > > > > > > > > You say that the 'people of Kashmir welcome him with...' > > > > > > > > Are you not counting yourself as a 'person of Kashmir'? And if you > > > > are, why do you have any 'individual pain' > > > > > > > > More importantly, what does this have to do with Junaid's post which > > > > talks about the construction of the armed struggle? > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ......................... > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > And I can understand when a killer [ Bitta karate ] of 40 kashmiri > > > > > pandits > > > > > come out of jail, people in Kashmir welcome him with garlands and > > > > > distribute > > > > > sweet. > > > > > > > > > > Where does that imply bearing the individual pain collectively go > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > All in the name of Supreme. > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 08:15:33 -0000, junaid < justjunaid at rediffmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indian state has entered the bodies of Pawan Duranis and > > > > > Aditya Kauls > > > > > > imperceptibly. When Mr. Durani or Mr. Kaul speaks, it is the > > > > > voice of state, > > > > > > as the sole provider of values, which comes out. The State says > > > > > "My violence > > > > > > is my right, and my right alone, but anyone who challenges this > > > > > right, that > > > > > > is my sovereignty, she/he/they should be deemed criminal, fit > > > > > only to be > > > > > > eliminated through the laws that I make." > > > > > > > > > > > > So Mr. Durani, who has unconsciously become the spokesman of the > > > > > state, > > > > > > and regurgitates its litanies, would be confounded if someone > > > > > punctures his > > > > > > seemingly coherent discourse by refusing to accept the > > > > > legitimacy of the > > > > > > state. He will label anti-national and unpatriotic people who > > > > > don't accept > > > > > > the state's "natural" logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > When Kashmiris started an armed struggle against Indian state, > > > > > its main > > > > > > actors, the militants were not separate from, what are > > > > > mistakenly called, > > > > > > civilians. No one is innocent in Kashmir, militants, > > > > > "civilians", Indian > > > > > > troops or officials, Pandits. They have positions on political > > > > > issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > When a Kashmiri is killed by Indian troops, instead of seeking > > > > > justice > > > > > > from Indian state, people come together to forge a solidarity, > > > > > they bear > > > > > > individual pain collectively. Take the example of Pathribal > > > > > killings when > > > > > > the police fired on Kashmiris protesting fake killings of five > > > > > Kashmiris, > > > > > > and seven more died. Why would Kashmiris allow such a thing to > > > > > happen to > > > > > > themselves? > > > > > > > > > > > > The responsibility for the acts of militants, or armed > > > > > Kashmiris, was > > > > > > shared equally by the Kashmiri society. It was quite evident in > > > > > the way > > > > > > Kashmiris liberally funded the movement (many people gave away > > > > > part of their > > > > > > salaries, month after month, and from the returns from their > > > > > trade), > > > > > > participated in popular protests on the call from militants, > > > > > gave shelter > > > > > > and food to militants, protested in thousands in funerals for > > > > > militants, and > > > > > > suffered individual and collective brutalities at the hands of > > > > > Indian army. > > > > > > Militants were seen as the soldiers of the Kashmiri nation, > > > > > their freedom > > > > > > fighters, not brigands or criminals. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmiris never participated in funerals for killed Indian > > > > > soldiers. Like > > > > > > the way people in India mourned the death of Indian soldiers. > > > > > Kashmiris have > > > > > > always seen Indian forces as occupation troops. Occupation: > > > > > unlawful, > > > > > > illegitimate control of territories whose residents don't > > > > > endorse or > > > > > > authorize that control. And by popularly and violently opposing > > > > > Indian rule > > > > > > in Kashmir, expressed in the slogans and motifs of the movement, > > > > > a vast > > > > > > majority of Kashmiris declared their position. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now the incident referred to here: The Indian airmen, armed or > > > > > unarmed, > > > > > > were part of the Indian state's most visible and brutal aspect, > > > > > the Indian > > > > > > defense. Logically, in war the enemy's soldiers, armed or > > > > > unarmed, are > > > > > > legitimate targets. That is what they became. If Yasin Malik is > > > > > hanged, then > > > > > > those thousands of Indian soldiers who killed thousands of > > > > > militants should > > > > > > be hanged too. If he is forced to say sorry to India, then > > > > > Indian soldiers > > > > > > should say sorry to Kashmir. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's freedom movement is not a series of individual crimes. > > > > > As Indian > > > > > > states atrocities and brutalities are not acts of individual > > > > > crimes by > > > > > > soldiers. They are political acts. In Kashmir they are seen as > > > > > such. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I am against wars; but at the same time, I am against > > > > > the > > > > > > appropriation of the right to violence by the state; and I > > > > > especially > > > > > > despise this appropriation in occupied territories. > > > > > > > > > > > > Junaid > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:53:42 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:53:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On JKLF and Indian Airforce Personnel In-Reply-To: <32144e990709140322p6b8120bveb0ecbff5440117e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914081533.12689.qmail@webmail73.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140140x15309ee2n8f4049e2ae0d8d60@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140159o73078feao99e72927c4d8f839@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140211m77c6657fp16ecbdd42258cf7c@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140223t7dbf99bblaffcfb27e0736c5d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140317q2875c78fo4361b311e8712e57@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140322p6b8120bveb0ecbff5440117e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709140323p29c568eu7f8ead743b17a5ce@mail.gmail.com> How can You expect me to make Morons understand.......too much of a herculean task. On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > If you're asking what I understand from your word 'exile', the answer is > that realising that your argument has no basis in logic or reason or fact > you've taken the easy way out and ducked the issue. > > In all the exchanges we've had, you haven't been able to support any issue > by > fact or reason and take refuge in platitudes. > > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Partha , > > > > Thats your idea of understanding. > > > > What did you understand by my refering the word "Exile?" > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > You're welcome to withdraw, as that's a personal decision, just as > > > joining this list was a personal decision. > > > > > > However, don't you think that actually having a point of view that is > > > logically supported by facts and decisions a more sensible way to have a > > > discussion. > > > > > > Any how, that's your choice. If 'exile' is what you want, you're > > > welcome. > > > > > > At least you considered the Sarai post enough of a 'home' to feel > > > 'exiled'. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > .......... > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > As of now I am in an imposed Exile . An exile imposed by those who > > > > welcomed the Jihadis. > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > Interesting. > > > > > > > > > > You say that the 'people of Kashmir welcome him with...' > > > > > > > > > > Are you not counting yourself as a 'person of Kashmir'? And if you > > > > > are, why do you have any 'individual pain' > > > > > > > > > > More importantly, what does this have to do with Junaid's post > > > > > which talks about the construction of the armed struggle? > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > ......................... > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And I can understand when a killer [ Bitta karate ] of 40 > > > > > > kashmiri pandits > > > > > > come out of jail, people in Kashmir welcome him with garlands > > > > > > and distribute > > > > > > sweet. > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does that imply bearing the individual pain collectively > > > > > > go ? > > > > > > > > > > > > All in the name of Supreme. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 08:15:33 -0000, junaid > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indian state has entered the bodies of Pawan Duranis and > > > > > > Aditya Kauls > > > > > > > imperceptibly. When Mr. Durani or Mr. Kaul speaks, it is the > > > > > > voice of state, > > > > > > > as the sole provider of values, which comes out. The State > > > > > > says "My violence > > > > > > > is my right, and my right alone, but anyone who challenges > > > > > > this right, that > > > > > > > is my sovereignty, she/he/they should be deemed criminal, fit > > > > > > only to be > > > > > > > eliminated through the laws that I make." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So Mr. Durani, who has unconsciously become the spokesman of > > > > > > the state, > > > > > > > and regurgitates its litanies, would be confounded if someone > > > > > > punctures his > > > > > > > seemingly coherent discourse by refusing to accept the > > > > > > legitimacy of the > > > > > > > state. He will label anti-national and unpatriotic people who > > > > > > don't accept > > > > > > > the state's "natural" logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When Kashmiris started an armed struggle against Indian state, > > > > > > its main > > > > > > > actors, the militants were not separate from, what are > > > > > > mistakenly called, > > > > > > > civilians. No one is innocent in Kashmir, militants, > > > > > > "civilians", Indian > > > > > > > troops or officials, Pandits. They have positions on political > > > > > > issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When a Kashmiri is killed by Indian troops, instead of seeking > > > > > > justice > > > > > > > from Indian state, people come together to forge a solidarity, > > > > > > they bear > > > > > > > individual pain collectively. Take the example of Pathribal > > > > > > killings when > > > > > > > the police fired on Kashmiris protesting fake killings of five > > > > > > Kashmiris, > > > > > > > and seven more died. Why would Kashmiris allow such a thing to > > > > > > happen to > > > > > > > themselves? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The responsibility for the acts of militants, or armed > > > > > > Kashmiris, was > > > > > > > shared equally by the Kashmiri society. It was quite evident > > > > > > in the way > > > > > > > Kashmiris liberally funded the movement (many people gave away > > > > > > part of their > > > > > > > salaries, month after month, and from the returns from their > > > > > > trade), > > > > > > > participated in popular protests on the call from militants, > > > > > > gave shelter > > > > > > > and food to militants, protested in thousands in funerals for > > > > > > militants, and > > > > > > > suffered individual and collective brutalities at the hands of > > > > > > Indian army. > > > > > > > Militants were seen as the soldiers of the Kashmiri nation, > > > > > > their freedom > > > > > > > fighters, not brigands or criminals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmiris never participated in funerals for killed Indian > > > > > > soldiers. Like > > > > > > > the way people in India mourned the death of Indian soldiers. > > > > > > Kashmiris have > > > > > > > always seen Indian forces as occupation troops. Occupation: > > > > > > unlawful, > > > > > > > illegitimate control of territories whose residents don't > > > > > > endorse or > > > > > > > authorize that control. And by popularly and violently > > > > > > opposing Indian rule > > > > > > > in Kashmir, expressed in the slogans and motifs of the > > > > > > movement, a vast > > > > > > > majority of Kashmiris declared their position. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now the incident referred to here: The Indian airmen, armed or > > > > > > unarmed, > > > > > > > were part of the Indian state's most visible and brutal > > > > > > aspect, the Indian > > > > > > > defense. Logically, in war the enemy's soldiers, armed or > > > > > > unarmed, are > > > > > > > legitimate targets. That is what they became. If Yasin Malik > > > > > > is hanged, then > > > > > > > those thousands of Indian soldiers who killed thousands of > > > > > > militants should > > > > > > > be hanged too. If he is forced to say sorry to India, then > > > > > > Indian soldiers > > > > > > > should say sorry to Kashmir. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's freedom movement is not a series of individual > > > > > > crimes. As Indian > > > > > > > states atrocities and brutalities are not acts of individual > > > > > > crimes by > > > > > > > soldiers. They are political acts. In Kashmir they are seen as > > > > > > such. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I am against wars; but at the same time, I am > > > > > > against the > > > > > > > appropriation of the right to violence by the state; and I > > > > > > especially > > > > > > > despise this appropriation in occupied territories. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Junaid > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > From f.herrschaft at soz.uni-frankfurt.de Thu Sep 13 16:02:07 2007 From: f.herrschaft at soz.uni-frankfurt.de (Felicia Herrschaft) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:32:07 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] PLAZMA: Opening / Eroeffnung 22. September 2007, 16 Uhr, Leonhardi Kulturprojekte Message-ID: <002b01c7f5f1$582f0b30$0201a8c0@fehe> For the English version please scroll down. Herzliche Einladung zur Eroeffnung der Ausstellung: PLAZMA Junge Kunst aus Serbien und dem Kosovo / 23. September - 31. Oktober 2007 Eroeffnung: 22. September 2007, 16 Uhr Ausstellungsort: Burghof, Burggraefenroederstr. 2, 61184 Karben Öffnungszeiten: Samstags, Sonntags 14 - 18 Uhr und nach Vereinbarung Im Griechischen bedeutet Plasma (serbisch: Plazma) das Geformte, das Formbare und das Gebilde. In der Physik wird Plasma als Materie im 4. Aggregatzustand verstanden. Außerdem werden Kekse aus Serbien Plazma genannt. Diese Plazmas werden mit Vitaminen und Mineralstoffen angereichert. Sie wurden in Jugoslawien für die Ernährung von Kindern empfohlen und sind auch heute noch in Serbien populär. Die Ausstellung orientiert sich an der Fragestellung, wie die jungen Kunstszenen aus der Region, die eine Generationseinheit bilden und an derselben historisch-aktuellen Problematik orientiert sind, die in jeweils verschiedener Weise erfahrenen Ereignisse und politischen Entwicklungen verarbeiten. Für sie stellen diese Ereignisse und Entwicklungen Kindheitserlebnisse dar. Anhand dieses verbindenden Elements der positiven Kindheitserinnerung an die Kekse wird die Auseinandersetzung der Künstler mit ihrer Kindheit anregt und zugleich Kultur als etwas Formbares gezeigt. Künstler sind Mediatoren zwischen den Kulturen, durch ihre Faehigkeit zu bilden. Fuer Kuenstler beider Regionen stellt die Beruecksichtigung ihrer kulturellen Differenz eine Vorraussetzung für gemeinsame Projekte dar. Eingeladen sind Kuenstlerinnen und Kuenstler aus Serbien und Kosovo, die mit ihren Arbeiten die Formbarkeit kulturellen Ausdrucks untersuchen. Künstler und Künstlerinnen: Ana Adamovic, Jakup Ferri, Flaka Haliti, Jetmir Idrizi, Natasha Kokic, Dren Maliqi, Alban Muja, Kader Muzaqi, Milica Ruzicic, Manuel Schmalstieg, Tomislav Stanko Vukic, Lulzim Zeqiri Die Kuenstler sind anwesend. PLAZMA Young Art from Serbia and Kosovo / 23. September - 31. October 2007 Opening: Saturday, September 22, 2007, 4 pm Exhibition Space: Leonhardi Kulturprojekte, 61184 Karben, Burggraefenroederstr.2 open on saturday and sunday 2-6 pm and on request In Greek, 'plasma' means anything that is shaped and can be shaped, or the shape itself. Plasma is an ionized gas which activates spontaneous emissions in suns and stars; when these are captured in plasma - screens, they give off light of different colours. 'Plazma' is the name of a variety of biscuit made in Serbia. These biscuits were enriched with vitamins to make them especially nutritious. They were used in all spheres of life in Yugoslavia. They are still popular in Serbia today. As in the workshop that took place in Pristina in May 2007, we have formulated some questions that the 'Plazma' exhibition in Frankfurt | Karben is intended to raise: How are young artists from the region, who form a generational unit and are oriented towards the same set of current historical problems, dealing with events and political developments that each group experiences in a different way? For these artists, these events and developments are childhood experiences. By giving the exhibition this metaphorical title, we want to show that this element provides a link between the different works in the way the artists address questions related to their childhoods, and show culture as something that can be shaped. Artists, because of their capacity to shape, are mediators between the cultures. For artists from both regions, an awareness of cultural difference is a precondition of the joint projects we want to promote with the help of the exhibition. We have invited artists from Serbia and Kosova whose works address the question of how forms of cultural expression can be shaped. artists: Ana Adamovic, Jakup Ferri, Flaka Haliti, Jetmir Idrizi, Natasha Kokic, Dren Maliqi, Alban Muja, Kader Muzaqi, Milica Ruzicic, Manuel Schmalstieg, Tomislav Stanko Vukic, Lulzim Zeqiri The artists from Kosovo and Serbia are present. The project is under the patronage of the Goethe-Institute, Belgrade. The exhibition-project Plazma is supported by Hessische Kulturstiftung. map: www.leonhardikulturprojekte.org Kontakt: Leonhardi Kulturprojekte Burggraefenroederstr. 2 61184 Karben +49/176/62006867 www.leonhardikulturprojekte.org Leonhardi Kulturprojekte in Frankfurt: Glauburgstr.13, 60318 Frankfurt -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From sarah.turner at manchesterurbanscreens.org.uk Thu Sep 13 22:53:43 2007 From: sarah.turner at manchesterurbanscreens.org.uk (Sarah Turner) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:23:43 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Urban Screens Manchester Newsletter 4 Message-ID: <017601c7f62a$d5eff280$1db2a8c0@sarahj6y7loy0> Urban Screens Manchester Conference 11 - 12 October Art and Events 11 - 14 October It's about Content! SPECIAL OFFER - BOOK BEFORE SEPTEMBER 30th Two days: GBP80 / GBP60 concs One day: GBP60 / GBP40 concs DELEGATE RATES AFTER SEPTEMPER 30th Two days: GBP100 / GBP80 concs One day: GBP80 / GBP60 Take a closer look at selected focus and poster sessions on aesthetics and their role as communication medium on day 2 of the conference. Focus Session 2: Towards a New Aesthetics of Screen Art in the Urban Environment, Cornerhouse The audiovisual density of urban spaces is rapidly increasing. Adding large scale moving images to the already dynamic cityscape may overstrain the capacity of human perception. What is the definition of 'too much' with regards to moving images in public space? Can people live with an increased amount of activity within urban space? Are there existing moving image formats suitable for display in urban space? Or does the audiovisual density and increased rhythm of the city demand a completely new aesthetics? Moderator Susanne Jaschko (DE) is the curator of Urban Screens Manchester 07. She is a Berlin based independent curator and researcher in contemporary visual and electronic art. Uta Caspary (DE) will throw light upon digital media as ornament in contemporary architecture facades. She looks at how, in the present urban context, media facades oscillate between art, architecture and infotainment, replacing and expanding the function of architectural ornament. Jean-Claude Bustros (CA) engages with cinema that transcends the screen, seeking strategies for human/image interaction. He is currently exploring how the strategic placement of a 'perceptive' screen, capable of reaction, can impact the daily activity of urban dwellers. Media artist Günther Selichar (AT) will present Who's Afraid of Blue, Red and Green?, an online competition and public art project based on the elementary visual building blocks of digital display screens. He looks at how screens have come to the public squares of our cities and re-established the old public space as a possible new public space. Poster Session: Towards a New Aesthetics of Screen Art in the Urban Environment, Cornerhouse Anette Schäfer (DE/UK) director of Trampoline, an organisation that runs regular platform events for new media art, will present examples of artists working with other forms of screen-like interfaces, illustrating alternative usages and formats of screens. Theresa Caruana (UK) established Palmeda in 2005, focusing on creating public art using digital projections and live performance. She will investigate the meaningful integration of urban screens in social environments. Dr Stephen Brennan (UK), Director of Marketing and Strategy of the Digital Hub Development Agency, will exemplify the role of the screen in urban regeneration which can act as a device by which communities can address concerns and ideas. Register your interest now at www.manchesterurbanscreens.org.uk Urban Screens Manchester has been curated by Dr Susanne Jaschko . Urban Screens Manchester has been supported by Cornerhouse and BBC. It has been funded by Arts Council England, Manchester City Council, Marketing Manchester. With support from MDDA and Manchester Knowledge Capital. ................................................. Sarah Turner International PR Urban Screens Manchester 07 www.manchesterurbanscreens.org.uk +49 (0)162 526 5624 -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:59:26 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:59:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officerswere agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <78f5ab026716676afece88c17bc5057e@mail.xtdnet.nl> References: <6b79f1a70709132010p7f99108fs4c877b58bcf22f8@mail.gmail.com> <78f5ab026716676afece88c17bc5057e@mail.xtdnet.nl> Message-ID: <32144e990709140329w33fe2c56o43c187a19dce6ceb@mail.gmail.com> Hi Zainab, For the vouch part, am a happily married man with 3 lovely children (though they do incite thoughts of violence at times!) - though that doesn't mean much. For the rest, as far as my friends are concerned, am more interested in their heart and thoughts than where they come from or what religion they are. More than that, as an Indian and a male, I apologise for the pathetic remark by Pawan. ............................. Pawan, It's shocking to see the extremely rude reply you made. If you are incapable of making a response then at least don't stoop to the level of filthy curses. If nothing else, I do hope that you are worried about the impression of India when a reasoned response is answered by trash like this. After your rape comment, this response of yours is extremely frightening and off putting. On 9/14/07, zainab wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > God bless you! > Peace be with you! > India is great! > Jai bharat! > Jai bharat mata! > Jai Bharat mata ke Pawan putra! > Jai seeta ram! > Jai ram ram! > Jai hindustan! > Jai hindu! > > Happy???? > > Z > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:40:42 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > wrote: > > Zainab , > > > > And do you have anything else stuck up as well ? > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, zainab wrote: > >> > >> Dear Pawan, > >> > >> I feel quite safe in Shuddha's company despite being a woman and > >> technically a Muslim and technically a citizen of this country called > >> India. (I don't know Partha personally so I cannot vouch as > > confidently!) > >> > >> And it seems that either there is a problem with your eyes or there is > a > >> problem with your brain's processing and comprehension mechanisms but > it > >> has been repeatedly said that none of us are (I am assuming) fans of > > Yasin > >> Malik's. Like Shuddha, I too condemn violence but also believe that > when > >> force is used against you and your voice is constantly being repressed > > to > >> the extent that you silenced when you try to speak, in these > situations, > >> we > >> should not be surprised is violence is taken recourse to. > >> > >> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet cleaning > liquid. > >> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. Durani's head > >> refuses > >> to go away! > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Zainab > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:18:59 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > Saddha Devi, > >> > > >> > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > >> > > >> > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > >> > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free man ? > >> > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges against a > >> > terrorist > >> > has not been framed ? > >> > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with > > "intellectuals" > >> > leading it? > >> > > >> > If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand how > safe > >> the > >> > Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > >> > > >> > Pawan > >> > > >> > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > > >> >> Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point > > that > >> a > >> >> woman > >> >> > is molested , they are prone to it." > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural that > >> >> women should be 'prone' to being molested. > >> >> > >> >> I personally think that there is a world of a difference between the > >> >> estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces in > a > >> >> combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a > > woman. > >> >> > >> >> No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially one in > >> >> uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a situation > of > >> >> armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair target. > > If > >> >> they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed forces. > >> >> > >> >> A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face and > >> >> deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman does > not > >> >> make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, women > > do > >> >> not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the > > streets > >> >> of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most > > cities > >> >> in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni > > suggests > >> >> they are. > >> >> > >> >> By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what Pawan > >> >> Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of > > people > >> >> who will naturally face molestation in any and every circumstance, > > they > >> >> are in his words "prone to it". > >> >> > >> >> It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan > Durani > >> >> is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > >> >> > >> >> the kind obviously, who (logically following through his argument) > >> >> thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, > >> >> because, they "are prone to it". > >> >> > >> >> I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any > >> >> circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. > >> >> > >> >> regards > >> >> > >> >> Shuddha > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > >> >> > > >> >> > People like you have zero nationalism and negative > intellectualism. > >> >> > > >> >> > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care > > even > >> > for > >> >> the > >> >> > martyrs of his country. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >>Hi, > >> >> >> > >> >> >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have > some > >> >> >>questions > >> >> >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? > >> >> >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a > > part > >> > of > >> >> >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll be > >> >> >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that > they'll > >> be > >> >> >> targetted by militants > >> >> >> > >> >> >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal point > > of > >> >> view. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post > is > >> > not > >> >> >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his > > mind > >> >> >> and make him apologise. > >> >> >> > >> >> >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated > people > >> as > >> >> >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so we > >> > know > >> >> >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that needs > > to > >> > be > >> >> >>faced > >> >> >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance it > > by > >> >> >>hate. > >> >> >> > >> >> >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in > >> since > >> >> >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to > > the > >> > US > >> >> >> and Ireland > >> >> >> > >> >> >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what > > you're > >> >> >>trying to say, > >> >> >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should > >> > include > >> >> >>the debate. > >> >> >> > >> >> >>Rgds, Partha > >> >> >>.................... > >> >> >> > >> >> >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > >> >> argument................god > >> >> >>>Bless India. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>misfortune > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>>was that he was in uniform. > >> >> >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were > >> > waiting > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>>near > >> >> >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach > > them > >> > to > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>the > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>>airport. > >> >> >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying > > four > >> > to > >> >> >>>>five > >> >> >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next > >> thing > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>that > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the last > >> > thing > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>he > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were > > injured. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>Hardly > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by a > >> > head > >> >> >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles > > remained > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>silent > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>>as > >> >> >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a > >> > clockwise > >> >> >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into > >> > Srinagar's > >> >> >>>>numerous back lanes. > >> >> >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to > >> > defend > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>the > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They were > >> the > >> >> >>>>agents > >> >> >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>>*-- > >> >> >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > >> >> >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > >> >> >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > >> >> >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > >> >> >>>>_________________________________________ > >> >> >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >> >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >>>>To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >>>>List archive: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>_________________________________________ > >> >> >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >>>Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> >>>subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >>>To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >>>List archive: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >>-- > >> >> >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > >> >> >>http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > >> >> > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: > >> >> > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 16:01:12 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:01:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****************************************Shiva-Sakti in INDIA************************************* In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709140319m2072c777n9dbcd3a06e5f31fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <135884.85635.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990709140239qfb8310crf38edcdd48256fad@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140319m2072c777n9dbcd3a06e5f31fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140331x4a147b90j5d2cb3d4600e8e41@mail.gmail.com> As usual, platitudes and no reason. I know the anthem by heart and have know it from school. Rich Indian ethos also includes humility and openness, which is sadly lacking in all your responses - along with logic. Rgds, Partha On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Dhatri , > > > Anything related to India and rich Indian ethos which evokes nationalism > is a unwelcome gesture to SAP. > > Pawan > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > 1. As someone who's done his schooling in India, I know the National > > Anthem > > and I don't need a link to memorise it. > > > > 2. What 'argument' on India. If you must make a reference, at least > > leave a > > link > > to the post here. > > > > 3. Your list of copied and pasted did have some information I didn't > > know, > > but > > I don't want to mug it up in any case, and can find it on the net > > when > > I need, > > as can any other member of this post since they have to have access > > to > > the > > net to access the post. > > > > 4. What was the purpose of this post? Promoting Indian Tourism? > > Wrong post & wrong audience. > > > > Rgds, Parha > > ................... > > > > On 9/14/07, we wi wrote: > > > > > > Dear Readers, > > > > > > Finally by looking at the link just memorize the National Anthem. > > > > > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > > > > > > > "Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayehe > > > Bharata bhagya vidhata; > > > Punjaba Sindhu Gujarata Maratha, > > > Dravida Utkala Banga, > > > Vindhya, Himachala, Jamuna, Ganga, > > > Ucchhala Jaladhitaranga; > > > Taba Shubha Naame Jaage > > > Taba Shubha Ashish Maage > > > Gaye taba jaya gaatha. > > > Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayahe > > > Bharata bhagya vidhata; > > > Jaya he Jaye he > > > Jaya Jaya Jaya Jaya he" > > > > > > Not only that but to support my argument on INDIA I use > > the > > > following 2 > > > 1)--- > > > सौराष्ट्रे सोमनाथं च श्रीशैले मल्लिकार्जुनम् । > > > उज्जयिन्यां महाकालमोकांरममलेश्वरम् । > > > परल्यां वैद्यनाथं च डाकिन्यां भीमशंकरम् । > > > सेतुबंधे तु रामेशं नागेशं दारूकावने । > > > वाराणस्यां तु विश्वेशं त्रयंम्बकं गौतमीतटे । > > > हिमालये तु केदारं घुश्मेशं च शिवालये । > > > ऐतानि ज्योतिर्लिंगानि सायं प्रातः पठेन्नरः । > > > सप्तजन्मकृतं पापं स्मरणेन विनश्यति । - Dwadasa Jyotirlinga Stotra by > > Adi > > > Shankaracharya > > > (The twelve Jyotirlingas are- > > > > > > Somnath at Prabhas Patan, Saurashtra, Gujarat. > > > Sri Mallikarjun in Srisailam, near Kurnool,Andhra Pradesh, on the > > banks > > > of river Krishna.Adi Sankaracharya composed his Sivanandalahiri here. > > > Mahakaleshwar in Ujjain(Avanti) ,Madhya Pradesh. > > > Omkareshwar in Omkareshwar, Madhya Pradesh, this jyotirlinga is > > > situated on an island in the course of the river Narmada. > > > Vaidyanath temple at Deogarh,Santal Parganas area of Bihar. > > > Bhimashankar in Dakini and located in the Sahyadri hills,near Pune, > > > Maharashtra. > > > Ramalingeswarar in Setubandanam , Tamilnadu.This is situated on > > vast > > > temple island of Rameswaram.It is the southernmost of the 12 > > Jyotirlinga > > > shrines of India. > > > Nageshwar in Darukavanam, near Dwarka in Gujarat.But many strongly > > > consider Nagesh as stated above. > > > Vishwanath in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh. > > > Tryambakeswar Jyotirlinga shrine is intimately linked with the > > origin > > > of the river Godavari near Nasik, Maharashtra. > > > > > > Kedareswar in Kedarnath in Himalayas,Uttarakhand. > > > Ghrishneshwar in Devasrovar,near Ellora,Aurangabad, Maharashtra.) > > > > > > 2) --------- > > > The Shakti Peethas (places of strength) are places of worship > > > consecrated to the goddess 'Shakti', the female principal of Hinduism > > and > > > the main deity of the Shakta sect. They are sprinkled throughout the > > Indian > > > subcontinent [1]. > > > This goddess is often associated both with Gowrī/Parvati, the > > goddess of > > > marital felicity and longevity, and with Durga, goddess of strength > > and > > > valour. > > > > > > > > > // > > > [edit] Legend According to legend, at some time in the Satya Yuga, > > > Daksha performed a yagna (named Vrihaspati) with a desire of taking > > revenge > > > on Lord Shiva. Daksha was angry because his daughter Sati had married > > the > > > 'yogi' God Shiva against his wishes. Daksha invited all the deities to > > the > > > yagna except for Shiva and Sati. The fact that she was not invited did > > not > > > deter Sati from attending the yagna. She had expressed her desire to > > attend > > > to Shiva who had tried his best to dissuade her from going. Shiva > > eventually > > > allowed her to go escorted by his ganas (followers). > > > But Sati, being an uninvited guest, was not given any respect. > > > Furthermore, Daksha insulted Shiva. Sati was unable to bear her > > father's > > > insults toward her husband, so she committed suicide by jumping into > > the > > > pyre. > > > Enraged at the insult and the injury, Shiva destroyed Daksha's > > > sacrifice, cut off Daksha's head, and replaced it with that of a goat > > as he > > > restored him to life. Still crazed with grief, he picked up the > > remains of > > > Sati's body, and danced the dance of destruction through the Universe. > > The > > > other gods intervened to stop this dance, and the Vishnu's disk, or > > > Sudarshana Chakra, cut through the corpse of Sati. The various parts > > of the > > > body fell at several spots all through the Indian subcontinent and > > formed > > > sites which are known as Shakti Peethas today. > > > At all Shakti Peethas, the Goddess Shakti is accompanied by Lord > > > Bhairava (a manifestation of Lord Shiva). > > > > > > [edit] Historical notes According to the manuscript old manuscript > > > Mahapithapurana (circa 1690-1720 CE), there are 51 such places. Among > > them, > > > 23 are located in the Bengal region. 14 of these are located in what > > is now > > > West Bengal, India, while 7 are in what is now Bangladesh. > > > Preserving the mortal relics of famous and respected individuals was > > a > > > common practice in ancient India - seen in the Buddhist stupas which > > > preserve the relics of Gautama Buddha. It is believed by some that > > these 51 > > > peethas preserve the remains of some ancient female sage from whom the > > > legend of Kali could have emerged and then merged with the Purusha- > > Prakriti > > > (Shiva Shakti) model of Hindu thought. > > > > > > [edit] Locations The modern cities or towns that correspond to > > these 51 > > > locations can be a matter of dispute, but there are a few that are > > totally > > > unambiguous - for example, Kalighat in Kolkata/Calcutta and Kamakhya > > in > > > Assam. According to the Pithanirnaya Tantra the 51 peethas are > > scattered all > > > over India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Tibet and Pakistan. The > > > Shivacharita besides listing 51 maha-peethas, speaks about 26 more > > > upa-peethas. The Bengali almanac, Vishuddha Siddhanta Panjika too > > describes > > > the 51 peethas including the present modified addresses. A few of the > > > several accepted listings are given below.[2]. One of the few in South > > > > > India, Srisailam in Andhra Pradesh became the site for a 2nd century > > temple. > > > [3] > > > In the listings: > > > > > > "Shakti" refers to the Goddess woshipped (invaribly, in this case, > > a > > > manifestation of Dakshayani/Parvati/Durga); > > > "Bhairava" refers to her consort, a manifestation of Shiva; > > > "Organ or Ornament" refers to the body part or piece of jewellery > > that > > > fell to earth, at the location on which the respective temple is > > built. > > > > > > [edit] The 51 Shakti Peethas Sr. No. Place Organ or > > > Ornament Shakti Bhairava 1 Sri Lanka, in Nainativu, > > > Jaffna Anklets Indrakshi / Nagapooshani / > > > Bhuvaneswari Rakshaseshwar 2 Sharkrare, a little distance from > > Sukkur > > > Station from Karachi, > > > Pakistan Eyes Mahishmardini Krodhish 3 Sugandha, about 20 km > > from > > > Barisal, Bangladesh at Shikarpur on banks of Sondh > > > river Nose Sunanda Trayambak 4 Amarnath in Kashmir, India from > > > Srinagar through Pahalgam 94 km by Bus, Chandanwari 16 km by > > > walk Throat Mahamaya Trisandhyeshwar 5 Jwalamukhi, Kangra, > > India from > > > Pathankot alight at Jwalamukhi Road Station from there 20 > > > km Tongue Siddhida (Ambika) Unmatta Bhairav 6 Jalandhar, India > > from > > > Jalandhar Cantonment Station to Devi Talab Left > > > Breast Tripurmalini Bhishan 7 Ambaji, at Anart, Gujarat, > > > India Heart Ambaji 8 Nepal, near Pashupatinath Temple at > > Gujyeshwari > > > Temple Both Knees Mahashira Kapali 9 Manas, under Tibet at the > > > feet of Mount Kailash in Lake Mansarovar, a piece of Stone Right > > > Hand Dakshayani Amar 10 Biraja in Utkal present Orissa, > > > India Navel Vimla Jagannath 11 Gandaki from Pokhara, Nepal > > about 125 > > > km on the banks of Gandaki river where Muktinath temple is > > > situated Temple Gandaki Chandi Chakrapani 12 Bahula, on the > > banks of > > > Ajay river, at Ketugram 8 km from Katua, Burdwan, West Bengal, > > India Left > > > Arm Goddess Bahula Bhiruk 13 Ujaani, 16 km from Guskura Station > > under > > > Burdwan district of West Bengal, India Right Wrist Mangal > > > Chandika Kapilambar 14 Udaipur, Tripura, at the top of the hills > > known > > > as Tripura Sundari temple near Radhakishorepur village, a little > > distance > > > away from Udaipur town of Tripura, India Right Leg Tripura > > > Sundari Tripuresh 15 Chatral or Chôţţogram at the top of > > Chandranath > > > hills near Sitakunda station of Chittagong district, Bangladesh Right > > > > > Arm Bhawani Chandrashekhar 16 Trisrota, at Salbari village under > > > Boda division of Jalpaiguri district, West Bengal, India Left > > > Leg Bhraamari Ambar 17 Kamgiri, Kamakhya, at the Neelachal hills > > near > > > Guwahati, capital of Assam, India Genital > > > Organ Kamakhya Umanand 18 Jugaadya at Khirgram under Burdwan > > district, > > > West Bengal, India Great Toe (Right) Jugaadya Ksheer > > > Khandak 19 Kalipeeth, (Kalighat, Kolkata), India Right > > > Toe Kalika Nakuleesh 20 Prayag near Sangam at Allahabad, Uttar > > > Pradesh, India Finger (Hand) Lalita Bhava 21 Jayanti at > > Kalajore > > > Bourbhog village of Khasi hills under Jayantia Parganas of Sylhet > > district, > > > Bangladesh Left Thigh Jayanti Kramadishwar 22 Kireet at > > Kireetkona > > > village, 3 km from Lalbag Court Road station under district > > Murshidabad, > > > West Bengal, India Crown Vimla Sanwart 23 Varanasi at > > Manikarnika > > > Ghat on banks of Ganga at Kashi, Uttar Pradesh, > > India Earring Vishalakshi > > > & Manikarni Kalbhairav 24 Kanyashram, Kanyakumari the Bhadrakali > > temple > > > within the precincts > > > of Kumari temple, Tamil Nadu, > > India Back Sarvani Nimish 25 Present > > > day Kurukshetra town or Thanesar ancient Sthaneshwar, at Haryana, > > > India Ankle Bone Savitri Sthanu 26 Manibandh, at Gayatri hills > > near > > > Pushkar 11 km towards north-west from Ajmer, Rajasthan, India Two > > > Bracelets Gayatri Sarvanand 27 Shri Shail, at Jainpur village > > towards > > > north-east 3 km from Sylhet town, > > > Bangladesh Neck Mahalaxmi Sambaranand 28 Kankalitala, on the > > banks of > > > Kopai river 10 km towards north-east from Bolpur station of district > > > Birbhum, Devi locally known as KankaleshwariWest Bengal, > > > India Bone Devgarbha Ruru 29 Kalmadhav on the banks of Shon > > river in > > > a cave over hills near to Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, India Buttock > > > (Left) Kali Asitang 30 Shondesh, at the source point of Narmada > > river > > > in Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, India Buttock > > > (Right) Narmada Bhadrasen 31 Ramgiri, at Chitrakuta on the > > Jhansi > > > Manikpur Railway line in Uttar Pradesh, India Right > > > Breast Shivani Chanda 32 Vrindavan, near new bus stand on > > Bhuteshwar > > > road within Bhuteshwar Mahadev Temple, Vrindavan, Uttar Pradesh, > > > India Ringlets of Hair Uma Bhutesh 33 Shuchi, in a Shiva temple > > at > > > Shuchitirtham 11 km on Kanyakumari Trivandrum road, Tamil Nadu, > > India Teeth > > > (Upper Jaw) Narayani Sanhar 34 Panchsagar place not known Teeth > > > (Lower Jaw) Varahi Maharudra 35 Kartoyatat, at Bhawanipur > > village 28 > > > km distance from interior Serpur. Alight at Bagura station under > > district > > > Bagura, Bangladesh Left Anklet (Ornament) Arpana Vaman 36 Shri > > > Parvat, near Ladak, Kashmir, India. Another belief: at Srisailam in > > > Shriparvat hills under Karnool district, Andhra Pradesh, India Right > > Anklet > > > (Ornament) Shrisundari Sundaranand 37 Vibhash, at Tamluk under > > > district Purba Medinipur, West Bengal, India Left Ankle Kapalini > > > (Bhimarupa) Sarvanand 38 Prabhas, 4 km distance from Veraval > > station > > > near Somnath temple in Junagadh district of > > > Gujarat, India Stomach Chandrabhaga Vakratund 39 Bhairavparvat, > > at > > > Bhairav hills on the banks of Shipra river a little distance from > > Ujjaini > > > town, Madhya Pradesh, India Upper > > Lips Avanti Lambkarna 40 Jansthan, > > > at Godavari river valley near Nasik, Maharasthra, India Chin (Two > > > Parts) Bhramari Vikritaksh 41 Sarvashail or Godavaritir, at > > > Kotilingeswar temple on the banks of Godavari river near Rajamundry, > > Andhra > > > Pradesh, India Cheeks Rakini or Vishweshwari Vatsnabh or > > > Dandpani 42 Birat, near Bharatpur, Rajasthan, India Left Feet > > > Fingers Ambika Amriteshwar 43 Ratnavali, on the banks of > > Ratnakar > > > river at Khanakul-Krishnanagar, district Hooghly, West Bengal, > > India Right > > > Shoulder Kumari Shiva 44 Mithila, near Janakpur Railway station > > on the > > > boarder of India-Nepal Left > > Shoulder Uma Mahodar 45 Nalhati,Known as > > > "Nalateshwari Temple" from Nalhati station of Birbhum district by > > Rickshaw, > > > West Bengal, India Tubular Bones of the Feet > > > Kalika Devi Yogesh 46 Karnat place not known Both > > > Ears Jayadurga Abhiru 47 Vakreshwar, on the banks of Paaphara > > river, > > > 24 km distance from Siuri Town, district Birbhum,7km from Dubrajpur > > Rly. > > > Station West Bengal, India Portion between the > > > eyebrows Mahishmardini Vakranath 48 Yashor, at Ishwaripur, > > district > > > Khulna, Bangladesh Hands & Feet Yashoreshwari Chanda 49 Attahas > > > > > [Village:Dakshindihi,Dt:Burdwan]].From Katwa Rly. Station by bus to > > > "NIROL"(Approx 40Minutes).From there by Van rickshaw around 20 minutes > > to > > > Attahas, West Bengal, India Lips Phullara Vishvesh 50 SAINTHIA. > > > > > Locally Known as "Nandikeshwari" temple.Earlier Nandipur/Now in > > Sainthia > > > Town. only 1.5 km from Railway Station under a Banyan tree within a > > > boundary wall , district Birbhum, West Bengal, > > > India Necklace Nandini Nandikeshwar 51 Hingula (Or Hinglaj), > > southern > > > Baluchistan a few hours North-east of Gawadar and about 125 km towards > > > North-west from Karachi, Pakistan > > > Bramharandhra (Part of the head) Kottari Bhimlochan > > > > > > Fullara in Birbhum district is also considered to be a shakti > > peetha.[ > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel > > today! > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 16:03:29 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:03:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On JKLF and Indian Airforce Personnel In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709140323p29c568eu7f8ead743b17a5ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914081533.12689.qmail@webmail73.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140140x15309ee2n8f4049e2ae0d8d60@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140159o73078feao99e72927c4d8f839@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140211m77c6657fp16ecbdd42258cf7c@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140223t7dbf99bblaffcfb27e0736c5d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140317q2875c78fo4361b311e8712e57@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140322p6b8120bveb0ecbff5440117e@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140323p29c568eu7f8ead743b17a5ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140333i4e7fa899q9e5ac586cfe954ba@mail.gmail.com> Simple. Try using an argument based on fact and logic - not abuses and threats as you seem to be using. Isn't that what you learnt in school? I did, and it's worked for me till now. Rgds, Partha ........................ On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > How can You expect me to make Morons understand.......too much of a > herculean task. > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > If you're asking what I understand from your word 'exile', the answer is > > that realising that your argument has no basis in logic or reason or > > fact > > you've taken the easy way out and ducked the issue. > > > > In all the exchanges we've had, you haven't been able to support any > > issue by > > fact or reason and take refuge in platitudes. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > Partha , > > > > > > Thats your idea of understanding. > > > > > > What did you understand by my refering the word "Exile?" > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > You're welcome to withdraw, as that's a personal decision, just as > > > > joining this list was a personal decision. > > > > > > > > However, don't you think that actually having a point of view that > > > > is logically supported by facts and decisions a more sensible way to have a > > > > discussion. > > > > > > > > Any how, that's your choice. If 'exile' is what you want, you're > > > > welcome. > > > > > > > > At least you considered the Sarai post enough of a 'home' to feel > > > > 'exiled'. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > .......... > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > As of now I am in an imposed Exile . An exile imposed by those who > > > > > welcomed the Jihadis. > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting. > > > > > > > > > > > > You say that the 'people of Kashmir welcome him with...' > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you not counting yourself as a 'person of Kashmir'? And if > > > > > > you are, why do you have any 'individual pain' > > > > > > > > > > > > More importantly, what does this have to do with Junaid's post > > > > > > which talks about the construction of the armed struggle? > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > ......................... > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I can understand when a killer [ Bitta karate ] of 40 > > > > > > > kashmiri pandits > > > > > > > come out of jail, people in Kashmir welcome him with garlands > > > > > > > and distribute > > > > > > > sweet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does that imply bearing the individual pain collectively > > > > > > > go ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All in the name of Supreme. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 08:15:33 -0000, junaid > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indian state has entered the bodies of Pawan Duranis and > > > > > > > Aditya Kauls > > > > > > > > imperceptibly. When Mr. Durani or Mr. Kaul speaks, it is the > > > > > > > voice of state, > > > > > > > > as the sole provider of values, which comes out. The State > > > > > > > says "My violence > > > > > > > > is my right, and my right alone, but anyone who challenges > > > > > > > this right, that > > > > > > > > is my sovereignty, she/he/they should be deemed criminal, > > > > > > > fit only to be > > > > > > > > eliminated through the laws that I make." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So Mr. Durani, who has unconsciously become the spokesman of > > > > > > > the state, > > > > > > > > and regurgitates its litanies, would be confounded if > > > > > > > someone punctures his > > > > > > > > seemingly coherent discourse by refusing to accept the > > > > > > > legitimacy of the > > > > > > > > state. He will label anti-national and unpatriotic people > > > > > > > who don't accept > > > > > > > > the state's "natural" logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When Kashmiris started an armed struggle against Indian > > > > > > > state, its main > > > > > > > > actors, the militants were not separate from, what are > > > > > > > mistakenly called, > > > > > > > > civilians. No one is innocent in Kashmir, militants, > > > > > > > "civilians", Indian > > > > > > > > troops or officials, Pandits. They have positions on > > > > > > > political issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When a Kashmiri is killed by Indian troops, instead of > > > > > > > seeking justice > > > > > > > > from Indian state, people come together to forge a > > > > > > > solidarity, they bear > > > > > > > > individual pain collectively. Take the example of Pathribal > > > > > > > killings when > > > > > > > > the police fired on Kashmiris protesting fake killings of > > > > > > > five Kashmiris, > > > > > > > > and seven more died. Why would Kashmiris allow such a thing > > > > > > > to happen to > > > > > > > > themselves? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The responsibility for the acts of militants, or armed > > > > > > > Kashmiris, was > > > > > > > > shared equally by the Kashmiri society. It was quite evident > > > > > > > in the way > > > > > > > > Kashmiris liberally funded the movement (many people gave > > > > > > > away part of their > > > > > > > > salaries, month after month, and from the returns from their > > > > > > > trade), > > > > > > > > participated in popular protests on the call from militants, > > > > > > > gave shelter > > > > > > > > and food to militants, protested in thousands in funerals > > > > > > > for militants, and > > > > > > > > suffered individual and collective brutalities at the hands > > > > > > > of Indian army. > > > > > > > > Militants were seen as the soldiers of the Kashmiri nation, > > > > > > > their freedom > > > > > > > > fighters, not brigands or criminals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmiris never participated in funerals for killed Indian > > > > > > > soldiers. Like > > > > > > > > the way people in India mourned the death of Indian > > > > > > > soldiers. Kashmiris have > > > > > > > > always seen Indian forces as occupation troops. Occupation: > > > > > > > unlawful, > > > > > > > > illegitimate control of territories whose residents don't > > > > > > > endorse or > > > > > > > > authorize that control. And by popularly and violently > > > > > > > opposing Indian rule > > > > > > > > in Kashmir, expressed in the slogans and motifs of the > > > > > > > movement, a vast > > > > > > > > majority of Kashmiris declared their position. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now the incident referred to here: The Indian airmen, armed > > > > > > > or unarmed, > > > > > > > > were part of the Indian state's most visible and brutal > > > > > > > aspect, the Indian > > > > > > > > defense. Logically, in war the enemy's soldiers, armed or > > > > > > > unarmed, are > > > > > > > > legitimate targets. That is what they became. If Yasin Malik > > > > > > > is hanged, then > > > > > > > > those thousands of Indian soldiers who killed thousands of > > > > > > > militants should > > > > > > > > be hanged too. If he is forced to say sorry to India, then > > > > > > > Indian soldiers > > > > > > > > should say sorry to Kashmir. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's freedom movement is not a series of individual > > > > > > > crimes. As Indian > > > > > > > > states atrocities and brutalities are not acts of individual > > > > > > > crimes by > > > > > > > > soldiers. They are political acts. In Kashmir they are seen > > > > > > > as such. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I am against wars; but at the same time, I am > > > > > > > against the > > > > > > > > appropriation of the right to violence by the state; and I > > > > > > > especially > > > > > > > > despise this appropriation in occupied territories. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Junaid > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 16:05:38 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:05:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officerswere agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <32144e990709140329w33fe2c56o43c187a19dce6ceb@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709132010p7f99108fs4c877b58bcf22f8@mail.gmail.com> <78f5ab026716676afece88c17bc5057e@mail.xtdnet.nl> <32144e990709140329w33fe2c56o43c187a19dce6ceb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709140335t1bf2937eqf98f0129ba9f51a5@mail.gmail.com> Partha , I am not one who takes thing lying down . I wonder what made you think that i should be docile when Zainab wrote this about me ">> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet cleaning liquid.>> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. Durani's head >> refuses >> to go away ." Do you expect me to shower him/her with roses ? I only reply in the same tone as one deserves . Give respect ...take respect....... or do you think Hindus are not supposed to react like that ? So much for Psuedo Secular people like you .....and you did not have a word of advise for Zainab. Zainab perhaps should first learn to use a decent language, and learn it fast . Would you Zainab ? Pawan On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Zainab, > > For the vouch part, am a happily married man with 3 lovely children > (though they do incite thoughts of violence at times!) - though that doesn't > mean much. For the rest, as far as my friends are concerned, am more > interested in their heart and thoughts than where they come from or what > religion they are. > > More than that, as an Indian and a male, I apologise for the pathetic > remark by Pawan. > ............................. > > Pawan, > It's shocking to see the extremely rude reply you made. If you are > incapable of making a response then at least don't stoop to the level of > filthy curses. > > If nothing else, I do hope that you are worried about the impression of > India when a reasoned response is answered by trash like this. > > After your rape comment, this response of yours is extremely frightening > and off putting. > > On 9/14/07, zainab wrote: > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > God bless you! > > Peace be with you! > > India is great! > > Jai bharat! > > Jai bharat mata! > > Jai Bharat mata ke Pawan putra! > > Jai seeta ram! > > Jai ram ram! > > Jai hindustan! > > Jai hindu! > > > > Happy???? > > > > Z > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:40:42 +0530, "Pawan Durani" < > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > Zainab , > > > > > > And do you have anything else stuck up as well ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, zainab wrote: > > >> > > >> Dear Pawan, > > >> > > >> I feel quite safe in Shuddha's company despite being a woman and > > >> technically a Muslim and technically a citizen of this country called > > >> India. (I don't know Partha personally so I cannot vouch as > > > confidently!) > > >> > > >> And it seems that either there is a problem with your eyes or there > > is a > > >> problem with your brain's processing and comprehension mechanisms but > > it > > >> has been repeatedly said that none of us are (I am assuming) fans of > > > Yasin > > >> Malik's. Like Shuddha, I too condemn violence but also believe that > > when > > >> force is used against you and your voice is constantly being > > repressed > > > to > > >> the extent that you silenced when you try to speak, in these > > situations, > > >> we > > >> should not be surprised is violence is taken recourse to. > > >> > > >> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet cleaning > > liquid. > > >> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. Durani's head > > >> refuses > > >> to go away! > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> > > >> Zainab > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:18:59 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > > >> > > > >> wrote: > > >> > Saddha Devi, > > >> > > > >> > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > > >> > > > >> > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > > >> > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free man ? > > >> > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges against a > > >> > terrorist > > >> > has not been framed ? > > >> > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with > > > "intellectuals" > > >> > leading it? > > >> > > > >> > If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand how > > safe > > >> the > > >> > Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > > >> > > > >> > Pawan > > >> > > > >> > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Pawan Durani wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the point > > > that > > >> a > > >> >> woman > > >> >> > is molested , they are prone to it." > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural > > that > > >> >> women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > >> >> > > >> >> I personally think that there is a world of a difference between > > the > > >> >> estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces > > in a > > >> >> combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a > > > woman. > > >> >> > > >> >> No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially one > > in > > >> >> uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a situation > > of > > >> >> armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair > > target. > > > If > > >> >> they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed > > forces. > > >> >> > > >> >> A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face and > > >> >> deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman does > > not > > >> >> make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, > > women > > > do > > >> >> not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the > > > streets > > >> >> of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most > > > cities > > >> >> in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni > > > suggests > > >> >> they are. > > >> >> > > >> >> By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what > > Pawan > > >> >> Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of > > > people > > >> >> who will naturally face molestation in any and every circumstance, > > > they > > >> >> are in his words "prone to it". > > >> >> > > >> >> It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan > > Durani > > >> >> is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > >> >> > > >> >> the kind obviously, who (logically following through his argument) > > >> >> thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, > > >> >> because, they "are prone to it". > > >> >> > > >> >> I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any > > >> >> circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. > > >> >> > > >> >> regards > > >> >> > > >> >> Shuddha > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > People like you have zero nationalism and negative > > intellectualism. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not care > > > even > > >> > for > > >> >> the > > >> >> > martyrs of his country. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > >> >> > > > >> >> >>Hi, > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have > > some > > >> >> >>questions > > >> >> >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a militant? > > >> >> >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but a > > > part > > >> > of > > >> >> >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that he'll > > be > > >> >> >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that > > they'll > > >> be > > >> >> >> targetted by militants > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal > > point > > > of > > >> >> view. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This post > > is > > >> > not > > >> >> >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change his > > > mind > > >> >> >> and make him apologise. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated > > people > > >> as > > >> >> >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals so > > we > > >> > know > > >> >> >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that > > needs > > > to > > >> > be > > >> >> >>faced > > >> >> >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not enhance > > it > > > by > > >> >> >>hate. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come in > > >> since > > >> >> >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan to > > > the > > >> > US > > >> >> >> and Ireland > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what > > > you're > > >> >> >>trying to say, > > >> >> >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you should > > >> > include > > >> >> >>the debate. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>Rgds, Partha > > >> >> >>.................... > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > > >> >> argument................god > > >> >> >>>Bless India. > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's > > > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>misfortune > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>>was that he was in uniform. > > >> >> >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues were > > > > >> > waiting > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>>near > > >> >> >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to reach > > > them > > >> > to > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>the > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>>airport. > > >> >> >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler carrying > > > > > four > > >> > to > > >> >> >>>>five > > >> >> >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The next > > >> thing > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>that > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the > > last > > >> > thing > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>he > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were > > > injured. > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>Hardly > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned by > > a > > >> > head > > >> >> >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles > > > remained > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>silent > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>>as > > >> >> >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a > > >> > clockwise > > >> >> >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into > > >> > Srinagar's > > >> >> >>>>numerous back lanes. > > >> >> >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was to > > > > >> > defend > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>the > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They > > were > > >> the > > >> >> >>>>agents > > >> >> >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>>*-- > > >> >> >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > > >> >> >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > >> >> >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > >> >> >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > >> >> >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > >> >> >>>>_________________________________________ > > >> >> >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> >> >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > > >> >> >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> >> >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > > >> >> >>>>To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> >> >>>>List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>_________________________________________ > > >> >> >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> >> >>>Critiques & Collaborations > > >> >> >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> >> >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > >> >> >>>To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> >> >>>List archive: > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>-- > > >> >> >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > >> >> >> http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > >> >> > > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> >> > List archive: > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 16:06:21 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:06:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****************************************Shiva-Sakti in INDIA************************************* In-Reply-To: <32144e990709140331x4a147b90j5d2cb3d4600e8e41@mail.gmail.com> References: <135884.85635.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990709140239qfb8310crf38edcdd48256fad@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140319m2072c777n9dbcd3a06e5f31fe@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140331x4a147b90j5d2cb3d4600e8e41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709140336n45c6bf9fs7e145bbacaf03513@mail.gmail.com> your ignorance ..... On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > As usual, platitudes and no reason. > > I know the anthem by heart and have know it from school. > > Rich Indian ethos also includes humility and openness, which is sadly > lacking in all your responses - along with logic. > > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Dear Dhatri , > > > > > > Anything related to India and rich Indian ethos which evokes nationalism > > is a unwelcome gesture to SAP. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta < parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > 1. As someone who's done his schooling in India, I know the National > > > > > > Anthem > > > and I don't need a link to memorise it. > > > > > > 2. What 'argument' on India. If you must make a reference, at least > > > leave a > > > link > > > to the post here. > > > > > > 3. Your list of copied and pasted did have some information I didn't > > > know, > > > but > > > I don't want to mug it up in any case, and can find it on the net > > > when > > > I need, > > > as can any other member of this post since they have to have > > > access to > > > the > > > net to access the post. > > > > > > 4. What was the purpose of this post? Promoting Indian Tourism? > > > Wrong post & wrong audience. > > > > > > Rgds, Parha > > > ................... > > > > > > On 9/14/07, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Readers, > > > > > > > > Finally by looking at the link just memorize the National Anthem. > > > > > > > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > > > > > > > > > > "Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayehe > > > > Bharata bhagya vidhata; > > > > Punjaba Sindhu Gujarata Maratha, > > > > Dravida Utkala Banga, > > > > Vindhya, Himachala, Jamuna, Ganga, > > > > Ucchhala Jaladhitaranga; > > > > Taba Shubha Naame Jaage > > > > Taba Shubha Ashish Maage > > > > Gaye taba jaya gaatha. > > > > Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayahe > > > > Bharata bhagya vidhata; > > > > Jaya he Jaye he > > > > Jaya Jaya Jaya Jaya he" > > > > > > > > Not only that but to support my argument on INDIA I use > > > the > > > > following 2 > > > > 1)--- > > > > सौराष्ट्रे सोमनाथं च श्रीशैले मल्लिकार्जुनम् । > > > > उज्जयिन्यां महाकालमोकांरममलेश्वरम् । > > > > परल्यां वैद्यनाथं च डाकिन्यां भीमशंकरम् । > > > > सेतुबंधे तु रामेशं नागेशं दारूकावने । > > > > वाराणस्यां तु विश्वेशं त्रयंम्बकं गौतमीतटे । > > > > हिमालये तु केदारं घुश्मेशं च शिवालये । > > > > ऐतानि ज्योतिर्लिंगानि सायं प्रातः पठेन्नरः । > > > > सप्तजन्मकृतं पापं स्मरणेन विनश्यति । - Dwadasa Jyotirlinga Stotra > > > by Adi > > > > Shankaracharya > > > > (The twelve Jyotirlingas are- > > > > > > > > Somnath at Prabhas Patan, Saurashtra, Gujarat. > > > > Sri Mallikarjun in Srisailam, near Kurnool,Andhra Pradesh, on the > > > banks > > > > of river Krishna.Adi Sankaracharya composed his Sivanandalahiri > > > here. > > > > Mahakaleshwar in Ujjain(Avanti) ,Madhya Pradesh. > > > > Omkareshwar in Omkareshwar, Madhya Pradesh, this jyotirlinga is > > > > situated on an island in the course of the river Narmada. > > > > Vaidyanath temple at Deogarh,Santal Parganas area of Bihar. > > > > Bhimashankar in Dakini and located in the Sahyadri hills,near > > > Pune, > > > > Maharashtra. > > > > Ramalingeswarar in Setubandanam , Tamilnadu.This is situated on > > > vast > > > > temple island of Rameswaram.It is the southernmost of the 12 > > > Jyotirlinga > > > > shrines of India. > > > > Nageshwar in Darukavanam, near Dwarka in Gujarat.But many > > > strongly > > > > consider Nagesh as stated above. > > > > Vishwanath in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh. > > > > Tryambakeswar Jyotirlinga shrine is intimately linked with the > > > origin > > > > of the river Godavari near Nasik, Maharashtra. > > > > > > > > Kedareswar in Kedarnath in Himalayas,Uttarakhand. > > > > Ghrishneshwar in Devasrovar,near Ellora,Aurangabad, Maharashtra.) > > > > > > > > 2) --------- > > > > The Shakti Peethas (places of strength) are places of worship > > > > consecrated to the goddess 'Shakti', the female principal of > > > Hinduism and > > > > the main deity of the Shakta sect. They are sprinkled throughout the > > > Indian > > > > subcontinent [1]. > > > > This goddess is often associated both with Gowrī/Parvati, the > > > goddess of > > > > marital felicity and longevity, and with Durga, goddess of strength > > > and > > > > valour. > > > > > > > > > > > > // > > > > [edit] Legend According to legend, at some time in the Satya > > > Yuga, > > > > Daksha performed a yagna (named Vrihaspati) with a desire of taking > > > revenge > > > > on Lord Shiva. Daksha was angry because his daughter Sati had > > > married the > > > > 'yogi' God Shiva against his wishes. Daksha invited all the deities > > > to the > > > > yagna except for Shiva and Sati. The fact that she was not invited > > > did not > > > > deter Sati from attending the yagna. She had expressed her desire to > > > attend > > > > to Shiva who had tried his best to dissuade her from going. Shiva > > > eventually > > > > allowed her to go escorted by his ganas (followers). > > > > But Sati, being an uninvited guest, was not given any respect. > > > > Furthermore, Daksha insulted Shiva. Sati was unable to bear her > > > father's > > > > insults toward her husband, so she committed suicide by jumping into > > > the > > > > pyre. > > > > Enraged at the insult and the injury, Shiva destroyed Daksha's > > > > sacrifice, cut off Daksha's head, and replaced it with that of a > > > goat as he > > > > restored him to life. Still crazed with grief, he picked up the > > > remains of > > > > Sati's body, and danced the dance of destruction through the > > > Universe. The > > > > other gods intervened to stop this dance, and the Vishnu's disk, or > > > > Sudarshana Chakra, cut through the corpse of Sati. The various parts > > > of the > > > > body fell at several spots all through the Indian subcontinent and > > > formed > > > > sites which are known as Shakti Peethas today. > > > > At all Shakti Peethas, the Goddess Shakti is accompanied by Lord > > > > Bhairava (a manifestation of Lord Shiva). > > > > > > > > [edit] Historical notes According to the manuscript old > > > manuscript > > > > Mahapithapurana (circa 1690-1720 CE), there are 51 such places. > > > Among them, > > > > 23 are located in the Bengal region. 14 of these are located in what > > > is now > > > > West Bengal, India, while 7 are in what is now Bangladesh. > > > > Preserving the mortal relics of famous and respected individuals > > > was a > > > > common practice in ancient India - seen in the Buddhist stupas which > > > > preserve the relics of Gautama Buddha. It is believed by some that > > > these 51 > > > > peethas preserve the remains of some ancient female sage from whom > > > the > > > > legend of Kali could have emerged and then merged with the Purusha- > > > Prakriti > > > > (Shiva Shakti) model of Hindu thought. > > > > > > > > [edit] Locations The modern cities or towns that correspond to > > > these 51 > > > > locations can be a matter of dispute, but there are a few that are > > > totally > > > > unambiguous - for example, Kalighat in Kolkata/Calcutta and Kamakhya > > > in > > > > Assam. According to the Pithanirnaya Tantra the 51 peethas are > > > scattered all > > > > over India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Tibet and Pakistan. The > > > > Shivacharita besides listing 51 maha-peethas, speaks about 26 more > > > > upa-peethas. The Bengali almanac, Vishuddha Siddhanta Panjika too > > > describes > > > > the 51 peethas including the present modified addresses. A few of > > > the > > > > several accepted listings are given below.[2]. One of the few in > > > South > > > > India, Srisailam in Andhra Pradesh became the site for a 2nd century > > > temple. > > > > [3] > > > > In the listings: > > > > > > > > "Shakti" refers to the Goddess woshipped (invaribly, in this > > > case, a > > > > manifestation of Dakshayani/Parvati/Durga); > > > > "Bhairava" refers to her consort, a manifestation of Shiva; > > > > "Organ or Ornament" refers to the body part or piece of jewellery > > > that > > > > fell to earth, at the location on which the respective temple is > > > built. > > > > > > > > [edit] The 51 Shakti Peethas Sr. No. Place Organ or > > > > Ornament Shakti Bhairava 1 Sri Lanka, in Nainativu, > > > > Jaffna Anklets Indrakshi / Nagapooshani / > > > > Bhuvaneswari Rakshaseshwar 2 Sharkrare, a little distance from > > > Sukkur > > > > Station from Karachi, > > > > Pakistan Eyes Mahishmardini Krodhish 3 Sugandha, about 20 km > > > from > > > > Barisal, Bangladesh at Shikarpur on banks of Sondh > > > > river Nose Sunanda Trayambak 4 Amarnath in Kashmir, India > > > from > > > > Srinagar through Pahalgam 94 km by Bus, Chandanwari 16 km by > > > > walk Throat Mahamaya Trisandhyeshwar 5 Jwalamukhi, Kangra, > > > India from > > > > Pathankot alight at Jwalamukhi Road Station from there 20 > > > > km Tongue Siddhida (Ambika) Unmatta Bhairav 6 Jalandhar, > > > India from > > > > Jalandhar Cantonment Station to Devi Talab Left > > > > Breast Tripurmalini Bhishan 7 Ambaji, at Anart, Gujarat, > > > > India Heart Ambaji 8 Nepal, near Pashupatinath Temple at > > > Gujyeshwari > > > > Temple Both Knees Mahashira Kapali 9 Manas, under Tibet at > > > the > > > > feet of Mount Kailash in Lake Mansarovar, a piece of Stone Right > > > > Hand Dakshayani Amar 10 Biraja in Utkal present Orissa, > > > > India Navel Vimla Jagannath 11 Gandaki from Pokhara, Nepal > > > about 125 > > > > km on the banks of Gandaki river where Muktinath temple is > > > > situated Temple Gandaki Chandi Chakrapani 12 Bahula, on the > > > banks of > > > > Ajay river, at Ketugram 8 km from Katua, Burdwan, West Bengal, > > > India Left > > > > Arm Goddess Bahula Bhiruk 13 Ujaani, 16 km from Guskura > > > Station under > > > > Burdwan district of West Bengal, India Right Wrist Mangal > > > > Chandika Kapilambar 14 Udaipur, Tripura, at the top of the > > > hills known > > > > as Tripura Sundari temple near Radhakishorepur village, a little > > > distance > > > > away from Udaipur town of Tripura, India Right Leg Tripura > > > > Sundari Tripuresh 15 Chatral or Chôţţogram at the top of > > > Chandranath > > > > hills near Sitakunda station of Chittagong district, > > > Bangladesh Right > > > > Arm Bhawani Chandrashekhar 16 Trisrota, at Salbari village > > > under > > > > Boda division of Jalpaiguri district, West Bengal, India Left > > > > Leg Bhraamari Ambar 17 Kamgiri, Kamakhya, at the Neelachal > > > hills near > > > > Guwahati, capital of Assam, India Genital > > > > Organ Kamakhya Umanand 18 Jugaadya at Khirgram under Burdwan > > > district, > > > > West Bengal, India Great Toe (Right) Jugaadya Ksheer > > > > Khandak 19 Kalipeeth, (Kalighat, Kolkata), India Right > > > > Toe Kalika Nakuleesh 20 Prayag near Sangam at Allahabad, Uttar > > > > Pradesh, India Finger (Hand) Lalita Bhava 21 Jayanti at > > > Kalajore > > > > Bourbhog village of Khasi hills under Jayantia Parganas of Sylhet > > > district, > > > > Bangladesh Left Thigh Jayanti Kramadishwar 22 Kireet at > > > Kireetkona > > > > village, 3 km from Lalbag Court Road station under district > > > Murshidabad, > > > > West Bengal, India Crown Vimla Sanwart 23 Varanasi at > > > Manikarnika > > > > Ghat on banks of Ganga at Kashi, Uttar Pradesh, > > > India Earring Vishalakshi > > > > & Manikarni Kalbhairav 24 Kanyashram, Kanyakumari the > > > Bhadrakali temple > > > > within the precincts > > > > of Kumari temple, Tamil Nadu, > > > India Back Sarvani Nimish 25 Present > > > > day Kurukshetra town or Thanesar ancient Sthaneshwar, at Haryana, > > > > India Ankle Bone Savitri Sthanu 26 Manibandh, at Gayatri > > > hills near > > > > Pushkar 11 km towards north-west from Ajmer, Rajasthan, India Two > > > > Bracelets Gayatri Sarvanand 27 Shri Shail, at Jainpur village > > > towards > > > > north-east 3 km from Sylhet town, > > > > Bangladesh Neck Mahalaxmi Sambaranand 28 Kankalitala, on the > > > banks of > > > > Kopai river 10 km towards north-east from Bolpur station of district > > > > > > > Birbhum, Devi locally known as KankaleshwariWest Bengal, > > > > India Bone Devgarbha Ruru 29 Kalmadhav on the banks of Shon > > > river in > > > > a cave over hills near to Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, India Buttock > > > > > > > (Left) Kali Asitang 30 Shondesh, at the source point of > > > Narmada river > > > > in Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, India Buttock > > > > (Right) Narmada Bhadrasen 31 Ramgiri, at Chitrakuta on the > > > Jhansi > > > > Manikpur Railway line in Uttar Pradesh, India Right > > > > Breast Shivani Chanda 32 Vrindavan, near new bus stand on > > > Bhuteshwar > > > > road within Bhuteshwar Mahadev Temple, Vrindavan, Uttar Pradesh, > > > > India Ringlets of Hair Uma Bhutesh 33 Shuchi, in a Shiva > > > temple at > > > > Shuchitirtham 11 km on Kanyakumari Trivandrum road, Tamil Nadu, > > > India Teeth > > > > (Upper Jaw) Narayani Sanhar 34 Panchsagar place not > > > known Teeth > > > > (Lower Jaw) Varahi Maharudra 35 Kartoyatat, at Bhawanipur > > > village 28 > > > > km distance from interior Serpur. Alight at Bagura station under > > > district > > > > Bagura, Bangladesh Left Anklet > > > (Ornament) Arpana Vaman 36 Shri > > > > Parvat, near Ladak, Kashmir, India. Another belief: at Srisailam in > > > > Shriparvat hills under Karnool district, Andhra Pradesh, > > > India Right Anklet > > > > (Ornament) Shrisundari Sundaranand 37 Vibhash, at Tamluk under > > > > district Purba Medinipur, West Bengal, India Left Ankle Kapalini > > > > (Bhimarupa) Sarvanand 38 Prabhas, 4 km distance from Veraval > > > station > > > > near Somnath temple in Junagadh district of > > > > Gujarat, > > > India Stomach Chandrabhaga Vakratund 39 Bhairavparvat, at > > > > Bhairav hills on the banks of Shipra river a little distance from > > > Ujjaini > > > > town, Madhya Pradesh, India Upper > > > Lips Avanti Lambkarna 40 Jansthan, > > > > at Godavari river valley near Nasik, Maharasthra, India Chin (Two > > > > Parts) Bhramari Vikritaksh 41 Sarvashail or Godavaritir, at > > > > Kotilingeswar temple on the banks of Godavari river near Rajamundry, > > > Andhra > > > > Pradesh, India Cheeks Rakini or Vishweshwari Vatsnabh or > > > > Dandpani 42 Birat, near Bharatpur, Rajasthan, India Left Feet > > > > Fingers Ambika Amriteshwar 43 Ratnavali, on the banks of > > > Ratnakar > > > > river at Khanakul-Krishnanagar, district Hooghly, West Bengal, > > > India Right > > > > Shoulder Kumari Shiva 44 Mithila, near Janakpur Railway > > > station on the > > > > boarder of India-Nepal Left > > > Shoulder Uma Mahodar 45 Nalhati,Known as > > > > "Nalateshwari Temple" from Nalhati station of Birbhum district by > > > Rickshaw, > > > > West Bengal, India Tubular Bones of the Feet > > > > Kalika Devi Yogesh 46 Karnat place not known Both > > > > Ears Jayadurga Abhiru 47 Vakreshwar, on the banks of Paaphara > > > river, > > > > 24 km distance from Siuri Town, district Birbhum,7km from Dubrajpur > > > Rly. > > > > Station West Bengal, India Portion between the > > > > eyebrows Mahishmardini Vakranath 48 Yashor, at Ishwaripur, > > > district > > > > Khulna, Bangladesh Hands & > > > Feet Yashoreshwari Chanda 49 Attahas > > > > [Village:Dakshindihi,Dt:Burdwan]].From Katwa Rly. Station by bus to > > > > "NIROL"(Approx 40Minutes).From there by Van rickshaw around 20 > > > minutes to > > > > Attahas, West Bengal, > > > India Lips Phullara Vishvesh 50 SAINTHIA. > > > > Locally Known as "Nandikeshwari" temple.Earlier Nandipur/Now in > > > Sainthia > > > > Town. only 1.5 km from Railway Station under a Banyan tree within a > > > > boundary wall , district Birbhum, West Bengal, > > > > India Necklace Nandini Nandikeshwar 51 Hingula (Or Hinglaj), > > > southern > > > > Baluchistan a few hours North-east of Gawadar and about 125 km > > > towards > > > > North-west from Karachi, Pakistan > > > > Bramharandhra (Part of the head) Kottari Bhimlochan > > > > > > > > Fullara in Birbhum district is also considered to be a shakti > > > peetha.[ > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel > > > today! > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 16:11:57 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:11:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officerswere agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709140335t1bf2937eqf98f0129ba9f51a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709132010p7f99108fs4c877b58bcf22f8@mail.gmail.com> <78f5ab026716676afece88c17bc5057e@mail.xtdnet.nl> <32144e990709140329w33fe2c56o43c187a19dce6ceb@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140335t1bf2937eqf98f0129ba9f51a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140341s6819d571n6227f68a543f507b@mail.gmail.com> Between crap and making a comment with sexual connotations, there's a huge difference. I don't know about you, but as a resident and believer in Bharat Mata, I do hold the feminine as sacred and worthy of respect. My ethos as an Indian and a son has taught me to give respect. Yes, I do believe that a Hindu and a man from the land of Gandhi should know how to behave. And do you really think Zainab's talking of crap stuck in the head is at the same level as the filthy sexual phrase mentioned by you? Would you respond to the phrase "Oh Shit" that is used by kids today with sexually explicit phrases like you used? If yes, I am really worried about what my daughetr will go through in school. Rgds, Partha On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Partha , > > I am not one who takes thing lying down . I wonder what made you think > that i should be docile when Zainab wrote this about me > > ">> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet cleaning > liquid.>> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. Durani's > head >> refuses >> to go away ." > > Do you expect me to shower him/her with roses ? > > I only reply in the same tone as one deserves . > > Give respect ...take respect....... > > or do you think Hindus are not supposed to react like that ? > > So much for Psuedo Secular people like you .....and you did not have a > word of advise for Zainab. > > Zainab perhaps should first learn to use a decent language, and learn it > fast . > > Would you Zainab ? > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi Zainab, > > > > For the vouch part, am a happily married man with 3 lovely children > > (though they do incite thoughts of violence at times!) - though that doesn't > > mean much. For the rest, as far as my friends are concerned, am more > > interested in their heart and thoughts than where they come from or what > > religion they are. > > > > More than that, as an Indian and a male, I apologise for the pathetic > > remark by Pawan. > > ............................. > > > > Pawan, > > It's shocking to see the extremely rude reply you made. If you are > > incapable of making a response then at least don't stoop to the level of > > filthy curses. > > > > If nothing else, I do hope that you are worried about the impression of > > India when a reasoned response is answered by trash like this. > > > > After your rape comment, this response of yours is extremely frightening > > and off putting. > > > > On 9/14/07, zainab < zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl> wrote: > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > God bless you! > > > Peace be with you! > > > India is great! > > > Jai bharat! > > > Jai bharat mata! > > > Jai Bharat mata ke Pawan putra! > > > Jai seeta ram! > > > Jai ram ram! > > > Jai hindustan! > > > Jai hindu! > > > > > > Happy???? > > > > > > Z > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:40:42 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > Zainab , > > > > > > > > And do you have anything else stuck up as well ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, zainab < zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Dear Pawan, > > > >> > > > >> I feel quite safe in Shuddha's company despite being a woman and > > > >> technically a Muslim and technically a citizen of this country > > > called > > > >> India. (I don't know Partha personally so I cannot vouch as > > > > confidently!) > > > >> > > > >> And it seems that either there is a problem with your eyes or there > > > is a > > > >> problem with your brain's processing and comprehension mechanisms > > > but it > > > >> has been repeatedly said that none of us are (I am assuming) fans > > > of > > > > Yasin > > > >> Malik's. Like Shuddha, I too condemn violence but also believe that > > > when > > > >> force is used against you and your voice is constantly being > > > repressed > > > > to > > > >> the extent that you silenced when you try to speak, in these > > > situations, > > > >> we > > > >> should not be surprised is violence is taken recourse to. > > > >> > > > >> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet cleaning > > > liquid. > > > >> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. Durani's head > > > >> refuses > > > >> to go away! > > > >> > > > >> Best, > > > >> > > > >> Zainab > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:18:59 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > > > > >> > > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > Saddha Devi, > > > >> > > > > >> > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > > > >> > > > > >> > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > > > >> > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free man ? > > > >> > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges against a > > > >> > terrorist > > > >> > has not been framed ? > > > >> > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with > > > > "intellectuals" > > > >> > leading it? > > > >> > > > > >> > If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand how > > > safe > > > >> the > > > >> > Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > > > >> > > > > >> > Pawan > > > >> > > > > >> > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < shuddha at sarai.net > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >> Pawan Durani wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the > > > point > > > > that > > > >> a > > > >> >> woman > > > >> >> > is molested , they are prone to it." > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural > > > that > > > >> >> women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> I personally think that there is a world of a difference between > > > the > > > >> >> estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed forces > > > in a > > > >> >> combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being a > > > > woman. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially > > > one in > > > >> >> uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a > > > situation of > > > >> >> armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair > > > target. > > > > If > > > >> >> they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed > > > forces. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face > > > and > > > >> >> deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman > > > does not > > > >> >> make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, > > > women > > > > do > > > >> >> not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the > > > > streets > > > >> >> of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In most > > > > cities > > > >> >> in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni > > > > suggests > > > >> >> they are. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what > > > Pawan > > > >> >> Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind of > > > > people > > > >> >> who will naturally face molestation in any and every > > > circumstance, > > > > they > > > >> >> are in his words "prone to it". > > > >> >> > > > >> >> It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan > > > Durani > > > >> >> is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > > >> >> > > > >> >> the kind obviously, who (logically following through his > > > argument) > > > >> >> thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation goes, > > > > > > >> >> because, they "are prone to it". > > > >> >> > > > >> >> I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any > > > >> >> circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> regards > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Shuddha > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > People like you have zero nationalism and negative > > > intellectualism. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not > > > care > > > > even > > > >> > for > > > >> >> the > > > >> >> > martyrs of his country. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> >>Hi, > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, have > > > some > > > >> >> >>questions > > > >> >> >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a > > > militant? > > > >> >> >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident but > > > a > > > > part > > > >> > of > > > >> >> >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that > > > he'll be > > > >> >> >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that > > > they'll > > > >> be > > > >> >> >> targetted by militants > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal > > > point > > > > of > > > >> >> view. > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This > > > post is > > > >> > not > > > >> >> >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change > > > his > > > > mind > > > >> >> >> and make him apologise. > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated > > > people > > > >> as > > > >> >> >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals > > > so we > > > >> > know > > > >> >> >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that > > > needs > > > > to > > > >> > be > > > >> >> >>faced > > > >> >> >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not > > > enhance it > > > > by > > > >> >> >>hate. > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India come > > > in > > > >> since > > > >> >> >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to Afghanistan > > > to > > > > the > > > >> > US > > > >> >> >> and Ireland > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to what > > > > you're > > > >> >> >>trying to say, > > > >> >> >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you > > > should > > > >> > include > > > >> >> >>the debate. > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >>Rgds, Partha > > > >> >> >>.................... > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > > > >> >> argument................god > > > >> >> >>>Bless India. > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul < adityarajkaul at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > > >> >> >>>> > > > >> >> >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi > > > Khanna's > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>misfortune > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>>was that he was in uniform. > > > >> >> >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues > > > were > > > >> > waiting > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>>near > > > >> >> >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to > > > reach > > > > them > > > >> > to > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>the > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>>airport. > > > >> >> >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler > > > carrying > > > > four > > > >> > to > > > >> >> >>>>five > > > >> >> >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The > > > next > > > >> thing > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>that > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was the > > > last > > > >> > thing > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>he > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were > > > > injured. > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>Hardly > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, manned > > > by a > > > >> > head > > > >> >> >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles > > > > remained > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>silent > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>>as > > > >> >> >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking a > > > >> > clockwise > > > >> >> >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into > > > >> > Srinagar's > > > >> >> >>>>numerous back lanes. > > > >> >> >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik was > > > to > > > >> > defend > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>the > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. They > > > were > > > >> the > > > >> >> >>>>agents > > > >> >> >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > > > >> >> >>>> > > > >> >> >>>> > > > >> >> >>>>*-- > > > >> >> >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > > > >> >> >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > > >> >> >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > >> >> >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > > >> >> >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > > >> >> >>>>_________________________________________ > > > >> >> >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> >> >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> >> >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > >> >> >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> >> >>>>To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> >> >>>>List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >> >> >>> > > > >> >> >>>_________________________________________ > > > >> >> >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> >> >>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> >> >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > >> >> >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> >> >>>To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> >> >>>List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >>-- > > > >> >> >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > >> >> >> http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > > > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> >> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> > List archive: > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 16:13:08 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:13:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****************************************Shiva-Sakti in INDIA************************************* In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709140336n45c6bf9fs7e145bbacaf03513@mail.gmail.com> References: <135884.85635.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990709140239qfb8310crf38edcdd48256fad@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140319m2072c777n9dbcd3a06e5f31fe@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140331x4a147b90j5d2cb3d4600e8e41@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140336n45c6bf9fs7e145bbacaf03513@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140343k464fed7fycae3a7f6a85cf750@mail.gmail.com> Yup, So show me the facts and the logic. Rgds, Partha On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > your ignorance ..... > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > As usual, platitudes and no reason. > > > > I know the anthem by heart and have know it from school. > > > > Rich Indian ethos also includes humility and openness, which is sadly > > lacking in all your responses - along with logic. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > Dear Dhatri , > > > > > > > > > Anything related to India and rich Indian ethos which evokes > > > nationalism is a unwelcome gesture to SAP. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta < parthaekka at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > > > 1. As someone who's done his schooling in India, I know the > > > > National > > > > Anthem > > > > and I don't need a link to memorise it. > > > > > > > > 2. What 'argument' on India. If you must make a reference, at least > > > > leave a > > > > link > > > > to the post here. > > > > > > > > 3. Your list of copied and pasted did have some information I > > > > didn't know, > > > > but > > > > I don't want to mug it up in any case, and can find it on the > > > > net when > > > > I need, > > > > as can any other member of this post since they have to have > > > > access to > > > > the > > > > net to access the post. > > > > > > > > 4. What was the purpose of this post? Promoting Indian Tourism? > > > > Wrong post & wrong audience. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Parha > > > > ................... > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Readers, > > > > > > > > > > Finally by looking at the link just memorize the National > > > > Anthem. > > > > > > > > > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayehe > > > > > Bharata bhagya vidhata; > > > > > Punjaba Sindhu Gujarata Maratha, > > > > > Dravida Utkala Banga, > > > > > Vindhya, Himachala, Jamuna, Ganga, > > > > > Ucchhala Jaladhitaranga; > > > > > Taba Shubha Naame Jaage > > > > > Taba Shubha Ashish Maage > > > > > Gaye taba jaya gaatha. > > > > > Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka Jayahe > > > > > Bharata bhagya vidhata; > > > > > Jaya he Jaye he > > > > > Jaya Jaya Jaya Jaya he" > > > > > > > > > > Not only that but to support my argument on INDIA I > > > > use the > > > > > following 2 > > > > > 1)--- > > > > > सौराष्ट्रे सोमनाथं च श्रीशैले मल्लिकार्जुनम् । > > > > > उज्जयिन्यां महाकालमोकांरममलेश्वरम् । > > > > > परल्यां वैद्यनाथं च डाकिन्यां भीमशंकरम् । > > > > > सेतुबंधे तु रामेशं नागेशं दारूकावने । > > > > > वाराणस्यां तु विश्वेशं त्रयंम्बकं गौतमीतटे । > > > > > हिमालये तु केदारं घुश्मेशं च शिवालये । > > > > > ऐतानि ज्योतिर्लिंगानि सायं प्रातः पठेन्नरः । > > > > > सप्तजन्मकृतं पापं स्मरणेन विनश्यति । - Dwadasa Jyotirlinga > > > > Stotra by Adi > > > > > Shankaracharya > > > > > (The twelve Jyotirlingas are- > > > > > > > > > > Somnath at Prabhas Patan, Saurashtra, Gujarat. > > > > > Sri Mallikarjun in Srisailam, near Kurnool,Andhra Pradesh, on > > > > the banks > > > > > of river Krishna.Adi Sankaracharya composed his Sivanandalahiri > > > > here. > > > > > Mahakaleshwar in Ujjain(Avanti) ,Madhya Pradesh. > > > > > Omkareshwar in Omkareshwar, Madhya Pradesh, this jyotirlinga is > > > > > situated on an island in the course of the river Narmada. > > > > > Vaidyanath temple at Deogarh,Santal Parganas area of Bihar. > > > > > Bhimashankar in Dakini and located in the Sahyadri hills,near > > > > Pune, > > > > > Maharashtra. > > > > > Ramalingeswarar in Setubandanam , Tamilnadu.This is situated on > > > > vast > > > > > temple island of Rameswaram.It is the southernmost of the 12 > > > > Jyotirlinga > > > > > shrines of India. > > > > > Nageshwar in Darukavanam, near Dwarka in Gujarat.But many > > > > strongly > > > > > consider Nagesh as stated above. > > > > > Vishwanath in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh. > > > > > Tryambakeswar Jyotirlinga shrine is intimately linked with the > > > > origin > > > > > of the river Godavari near Nasik, Maharashtra. > > > > > > > > > > Kedareswar in Kedarnath in Himalayas,Uttarakhand. > > > > > Ghrishneshwar in Devasrovar,near Ellora,Aurangabad, > > > > Maharashtra.) > > > > > > > > > > 2) --------- > > > > > The Shakti Peethas (places of strength) are places of worship > > > > > consecrated to the goddess 'Shakti', the female principal of > > > > Hinduism and > > > > > the main deity of the Shakta sect. They are sprinkled throughout > > > > the Indian > > > > > subcontinent [1]. > > > > > This goddess is often associated both with Gowrī/Parvati, the > > > > goddess of > > > > > marital felicity and longevity, and with Durga, goddess of > > > > strength and > > > > > valour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > // > > > > > [edit] Legend According to legend, at some time in the Satya > > > > Yuga, > > > > > Daksha performed a yagna (named Vrihaspati) with a desire of > > > > taking revenge > > > > > on Lord Shiva. Daksha was angry because his daughter Sati had > > > > married the > > > > > 'yogi' God Shiva against his wishes. Daksha invited all the > > > > deities to the > > > > > yagna except for Shiva and Sati. The fact that she was not invited > > > > did not > > > > > deter Sati from attending the yagna. She had expressed her desire > > > > to attend > > > > > to Shiva who had tried his best to dissuade her from going. Shiva > > > > eventually > > > > > allowed her to go escorted by his ganas (followers). > > > > > But Sati, being an uninvited guest, was not given any respect. > > > > > Furthermore, Daksha insulted Shiva. Sati was unable to bear her > > > > father's > > > > > insults toward her husband, so she committed suicide by jumping > > > > into the > > > > > pyre. > > > > > Enraged at the insult and the injury, Shiva destroyed Daksha's > > > > > sacrifice, cut off Daksha's head, and replaced it with that of a > > > > goat as he > > > > > restored him to life. Still crazed with grief, he picked up the > > > > remains of > > > > > Sati's body, and danced the dance of destruction through the > > > > Universe. The > > > > > other gods intervened to stop this dance, and the Vishnu's disk, > > > > or > > > > > Sudarshana Chakra, cut through the corpse of Sati. The various > > > > parts of the > > > > > body fell at several spots all through the Indian subcontinent and > > > > formed > > > > > sites which are known as Shakti Peethas today. > > > > > At all Shakti Peethas, the Goddess Shakti is accompanied by Lord > > > > > Bhairava (a manifestation of Lord Shiva). > > > > > > > > > > [edit] Historical notes According to the manuscript old > > > > manuscript > > > > > Mahapithapurana (circa 1690-1720 CE), there are 51 such places. > > > > Among them, > > > > > 23 are located in the Bengal region. 14 of these are located in > > > > what is now > > > > > West Bengal, India, while 7 are in what is now Bangladesh. > > > > > Preserving the mortal relics of famous and respected individuals > > > > was a > > > > > common practice in ancient India - seen in the Buddhist stupas > > > > which > > > > > preserve the relics of Gautama Buddha. It is believed by some that > > > > these 51 > > > > > peethas preserve the remains of some ancient female sage from whom > > > > the > > > > > legend of Kali could have emerged and then merged with the > > > > Purusha- Prakriti > > > > > (Shiva Shakti) model of Hindu thought. > > > > > > > > > > [edit] Locations The modern cities or towns that correspond to > > > > these 51 > > > > > locations can be a matter of dispute, but there are a few that are > > > > totally > > > > > unambiguous - for example, Kalighat in Kolkata/Calcutta and > > > > Kamakhya in > > > > > Assam. According to the Pithanirnaya Tantra the 51 peethas are > > > > scattered all > > > > > over India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Tibet and Pakistan. The > > > > > Shivacharita besides listing 51 maha-peethas, speaks about 26 more > > > > > > > > > upa-peethas. The Bengali almanac, Vishuddha Siddhanta Panjika too > > > > describes > > > > > the 51 peethas including the present modified addresses. A few of > > > > the > > > > > several accepted listings are given below.[2]. One of the few in > > > > South > > > > > India, Srisailam in Andhra Pradesh became the site for a 2nd > > > > century temple. > > > > > [3] > > > > > In the listings: > > > > > > > > > > "Shakti" refers to the Goddess woshipped (invaribly, in this > > > > case, a > > > > > manifestation of Dakshayani/Parvati/Durga); > > > > > "Bhairava" refers to her consort, a manifestation of Shiva; > > > > > "Organ or Ornament" refers to the body part or piece of > > > > jewellery that > > > > > fell to earth, at the location on which the respective temple is > > > > built. > > > > > > > > > > [edit] The 51 Shakti Peethas Sr. No. Place Organ or > > > > > Ornament Shakti Bhairava 1 Sri Lanka, in Nainativu, > > > > > Jaffna Anklets Indrakshi / Nagapooshani / > > > > > Bhuvaneswari Rakshaseshwar 2 Sharkrare, a little distance > > > > from Sukkur > > > > > Station from Karachi, > > > > > Pakistan Eyes Mahishmardini Krodhish 3 Sugandha, about 20 > > > > km from > > > > > Barisal, Bangladesh at Shikarpur on banks of Sondh > > > > > river Nose Sunanda Trayambak 4 Amarnath in Kashmir, India > > > > from > > > > > Srinagar through Pahalgam 94 km by Bus, Chandanwari 16 km by > > > > > walk Throat Mahamaya Trisandhyeshwar 5 Jwalamukhi, Kangra, > > > > India from > > > > > Pathankot alight at Jwalamukhi Road Station from there 20 > > > > > km Tongue Siddhida (Ambika) Unmatta Bhairav 6 Jalandhar, > > > > India from > > > > > Jalandhar Cantonment Station to Devi Talab Left > > > > > Breast Tripurmalini Bhishan 7 Ambaji, at Anart, Gujarat, > > > > > India Heart Ambaji 8 Nepal, near Pashupatinath Temple at > > > > Gujyeshwari > > > > > Temple Both Knees Mahashira Kapali 9 Manas, under Tibet at > > > > the > > > > > feet of Mount Kailash in Lake Mansarovar, a piece of Stone Right > > > > > Hand Dakshayani Amar 10 Biraja in Utkal present Orissa, > > > > > India Navel Vimla Jagannath 11 Gandaki from Pokhara, Nepal > > > > about 125 > > > > > km on the banks of Gandaki river where Muktinath temple is > > > > > situated Temple Gandaki Chandi Chakrapani 12 Bahula, on the > > > > banks of > > > > > Ajay river, at Ketugram 8 km from Katua, Burdwan, West Bengal, > > > > India Left > > > > > Arm Goddess Bahula Bhiruk 13 Ujaani, 16 km from Guskura > > > > Station under > > > > > Burdwan district of West Bengal, India Right Wrist Mangal > > > > > Chandika Kapilambar 14 Udaipur, Tripura, at the top of the > > > > hills known > > > > > as Tripura Sundari temple near Radhakishorepur village, a little > > > > distance > > > > > away from Udaipur town of Tripura, India Right Leg Tripura > > > > > Sundari Tripuresh 15 Chatral or Chôţţogram at the top of > > > > Chandranath > > > > > hills near Sitakunda station of Chittagong district, > > > > Bangladesh Right > > > > > Arm Bhawani Chandrashekhar 16 Trisrota, at Salbari village > > > > under > > > > > Boda division of Jalpaiguri district, West Bengal, India Left > > > > > Leg Bhraamari Ambar 17 Kamgiri, Kamakhya, at the Neelachal > > > > hills near > > > > > Guwahati, capital of Assam, India Genital > > > > > Organ Kamakhya Umanand 18 Jugaadya at Khirgram under Burdwan > > > > district, > > > > > West Bengal, India Great Toe (Right) Jugaadya Ksheer > > > > > Khandak 19 Kalipeeth, (Kalighat, Kolkata), India Right > > > > > Toe Kalika Nakuleesh 20 Prayag near Sangam at Allahabad, > > > > Uttar > > > > > Pradesh, India Finger (Hand) Lalita Bhava 21 Jayanti at > > > > Kalajore > > > > > Bourbhog village of Khasi hills under Jayantia Parganas of Sylhet > > > > district, > > > > > Bangladesh Left Thigh Jayanti Kramadishwar 22 Kireet at > > > > Kireetkona > > > > > village, 3 km from Lalbag Court Road station under district > > > > Murshidabad, > > > > > West Bengal, India Crown Vimla Sanwart 23 Varanasi at > > > > Manikarnika > > > > > Ghat on banks of Ganga at Kashi, Uttar Pradesh, > > > > India Earring Vishalakshi > > > > > & Manikarni Kalbhairav 24 Kanyashram, Kanyakumari the > > > > Bhadrakali temple > > > > > within the precincts > > > > > of Kumari temple, Tamil Nadu, > > > > India Back Sarvani Nimish 25 Present > > > > > day Kurukshetra town or Thanesar ancient Sthaneshwar, at Haryana, > > > > > India Ankle Bone Savitri Sthanu 26 Manibandh, at Gayatri > > > > hills near > > > > > Pushkar 11 km towards north-west from Ajmer, Rajasthan, India Two > > > > > > > > > Bracelets Gayatri Sarvanand 27 Shri Shail, at Jainpur > > > > village towards > > > > > north-east 3 km from Sylhet town, > > > > > Bangladesh Neck Mahalaxmi Sambaranand 28 Kankalitala, on > > > > the banks of > > > > > Kopai river 10 km towards north-east from Bolpur station of > > > > district > > > > > Birbhum, Devi locally known as KankaleshwariWest Bengal, > > > > > India Bone Devgarbha Ruru 29 Kalmadhav on the banks of Shon > > > > river in > > > > > a cave over hills near to Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, > > > > India Buttock > > > > > (Left) Kali Asitang 30 Shondesh, at the source point of > > > > Narmada river > > > > > in Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh, India Buttock > > > > > (Right) Narmada Bhadrasen 31 Ramgiri, at Chitrakuta on the > > > > Jhansi > > > > > Manikpur Railway line in Uttar Pradesh, India Right > > > > > Breast Shivani Chanda 32 Vrindavan, near new bus stand on > > > > Bhuteshwar > > > > > road within Bhuteshwar Mahadev Temple, Vrindavan, Uttar Pradesh, > > > > > India Ringlets of Hair Uma Bhutesh 33 Shuchi, in a Shiva > > > > temple at > > > > > Shuchitirtham 11 km on Kanyakumari Trivandrum road, Tamil Nadu, > > > > India Teeth > > > > > (Upper Jaw) Narayani Sanhar 34 Panchsagar place not > > > > known Teeth > > > > > (Lower Jaw) Varahi Maharudra 35 Kartoyatat, at Bhawanipur > > > > village 28 > > > > > km distance from interior Serpur. Alight at Bagura station under > > > > district > > > > > Bagura, Bangladesh Left Anklet > > > > (Ornament) Arpana Vaman 36 Shri > > > > > Parvat, near Ladak, Kashmir, India. Another belief: at Srisailam > > > > in > > > > > Shriparvat hills under Karnool district, Andhra Pradesh, > > > > India Right Anklet > > > > > (Ornament) Shrisundari Sundaranand 37 Vibhash, at Tamluk > > > > under > > > > > district Purba Medinipur, West Bengal, India Left Ankle Kapalini > > > > > > > > > (Bhimarupa) Sarvanand 38 Prabhas, 4 km distance from Veraval > > > > station > > > > > near Somnath temple in Junagadh district of > > > > > Gujarat, > > > > India Stomach Chandrabhaga Vakratund 39 Bhairavparvat, at > > > > > Bhairav hills on the banks of Shipra river a little distance from > > > > Ujjaini > > > > > town, Madhya Pradesh, India Upper > > > > Lips Avanti Lambkarna 40 Jansthan, > > > > > at Godavari river valley near Nasik, Maharasthra, India Chin (Two > > > > > Parts) Bhramari Vikritaksh 41 Sarvashail or Godavaritir, at > > > > > Kotilingeswar temple on the banks of Godavari river near > > > > Rajamundry, Andhra > > > > > Pradesh, India Cheeks Rakini or Vishweshwari Vatsnabh or > > > > > Dandpani 42 Birat, near Bharatpur, Rajasthan, India Left Feet > > > > > > > > > Fingers Ambika Amriteshwar 43 Ratnavali, on the banks of > > > > Ratnakar > > > > > river at Khanakul-Krishnanagar, district Hooghly, West Bengal, > > > > India Right > > > > > Shoulder Kumari Shiva 44 Mithila, near Janakpur Railway > > > > station on the > > > > > boarder of India-Nepal Left > > > > Shoulder Uma Mahodar 45 Nalhati,Known as > > > > > "Nalateshwari Temple" from Nalhati station of Birbhum district by > > > > Rickshaw, > > > > > West Bengal, India Tubular Bones of the Feet > > > > > Kalika Devi Yogesh 46 Karnat place not known Both > > > > > Ears Jayadurga Abhiru 47 Vakreshwar, on the banks of > > > > Paaphara river, > > > > > 24 km distance from Siuri Town, district Birbhum,7km from > > > > Dubrajpur Rly. > > > > > Station West Bengal, India Portion between the > > > > > eyebrows Mahishmardini Vakranath 48 Yashor, at Ishwaripur, > > > > district > > > > > Khulna, Bangladesh Hands & > > > > Feet Yashoreshwari Chanda 49 Attahas > > > > > [Village:Dakshindihi,Dt:Burdwan]].From Katwa Rly. Station by bus > > > > to > > > > > "NIROL"(Approx 40Minutes).From there by Van rickshaw around 20 > > > > minutes to > > > > > Attahas, West Bengal, > > > > India Lips Phullara Vishvesh 50 SAINTHIA. > > > > > Locally Known as "Nandikeshwari" temple.Earlier Nandipur/Now in > > > > Sainthia > > > > > Town. only 1.5 km from Railway Station under a Banyan tree within > > > > a > > > > > boundary wall , district Birbhum, West Bengal, > > > > > India Necklace Nandini Nandikeshwar 51 Hingula (Or > > > > Hinglaj), southern > > > > > Baluchistan a few hours North-east of Gawadar and about 125 km > > > > towards > > > > > North-west from Karachi, Pakistan > > > > > Bramharandhra (Part of the head) Kottari Bhimlochan > > > > > > > > > > Fullara in Birbhum district is also considered to be a shakti > > > > peetha.[ > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel > > > > today! > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 16:35:13 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:35:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officerswere agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <32144e990709140341s6819d571n6227f68a543f507b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709132010p7f99108fs4c877b58bcf22f8@mail.gmail.com> <78f5ab026716676afece88c17bc5057e@mail.xtdnet.nl> <32144e990709140329w33fe2c56o43c187a19dce6ceb@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140335t1bf2937eqf98f0129ba9f51a5@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140341s6819d571n6227f68a543f507b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709140405v3a9a9466i2c25bf5e8ef2707f@mail.gmail.com> Zainab is a female , that is a fact know to you ! And if Zainab write a crap , what would he /she expect in return ? As I said ....Give respect ...take respect...... I only speak the language other understands.....and deserves......... On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Between crap and making a comment with sexual connotations, there's a huge > difference. > > I don't know about you, but as a resident and believer in Bharat Mata, I > do hold the feminine as sacred and worthy of respect. My ethos as an Indian > and a son has taught me to give respect. > > Yes, I do believe that a Hindu and a man from the land of Gandhi should > know how to behave. > > And do you really think Zainab's talking of crap stuck in the head is at > the same level as the filthy sexual phrase mentioned by you? Would you > respond to the phrase "Oh Shit" that is used by kids today with sexually > explicit phrases like you used? > > If yes, I am really worried about what my daughetr will go through in > school. > > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > Partha , > > > > I am not one who takes thing lying down . I wonder what made you think > > that i should be docile when Zainab wrote this about me > > > > ">> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet cleaning > > liquid.>> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. Durani's > > head >> refuses >> to go away ." > > > > Do you expect me to shower him/her with roses ? > > > > I only reply in the same tone as one deserves . > > > > Give respect ...take respect....... > > > > or do you think Hindus are not supposed to react like that ? > > > > So much for Psuedo Secular people like you .....and you did not have a > > word of advise for Zainab. > > > > Zainab perhaps should first learn to use a decent language, and learn it > > fast . > > > > Would you Zainab ? > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > Hi Zainab, > > > > > > For the vouch part, am a happily married man with 3 lovely children > > > (though they do incite thoughts of violence at times!) - though that doesn't > > > mean much. For the rest, as far as my friends are concerned, am more > > > interested in their heart and thoughts than where they come from or what > > > religion they are. > > > > > > More than that, as an Indian and a male, I apologise for the pathetic > > > remark by Pawan. > > > ............................. > > > > > > Pawan, > > > It's shocking to see the extremely rude reply you made. If you are > > > incapable of making a response then at least don't stoop to the level of > > > filthy curses. > > > > > > If nothing else, I do hope that you are worried about the impression > > > of India when a reasoned response is answered by trash like this. > > > > > > After your rape comment, this response of yours is extremely > > > frightening and off putting. > > > > > > On 9/14/07, zainab < zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > God bless you! > > > > Peace be with you! > > > > India is great! > > > > Jai bharat! > > > > Jai bharat mata! > > > > Jai Bharat mata ke Pawan putra! > > > > Jai seeta ram! > > > > Jai ram ram! > > > > Jai hindustan! > > > > Jai hindu! > > > > > > > > Happy???? > > > > > > > > Z > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:40:42 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Zainab , > > > > > > > > > > And do you have anything else stuck up as well ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, zainab < zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Dear Pawan, > > > > >> > > > > >> I feel quite safe in Shuddha's company despite being a woman and > > > > >> technically a Muslim and technically a citizen of this country > > > > called > > > > >> India. (I don't know Partha personally so I cannot vouch as > > > > > confidently!) > > > > >> > > > > >> And it seems that either there is a problem with your eyes or > > > > there is a > > > > >> problem with your brain's processing and comprehension mechanisms > > > > but it > > > > >> has been repeatedly said that none of us are (I am assuming) fans > > > > of > > > > > Yasin > > > > >> Malik's. Like Shuddha, I too condemn violence but also believe > > > > that when > > > > >> force is used against you and your voice is constantly being > > > > repressed > > > > > to > > > > >> the extent that you silenced when you try to speak, in these > > > > situations, > > > > >> we > > > > >> should not be surprised is violence is taken recourse to. > > > > >> > > > > >> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet cleaning > > > > liquid. > > > > >> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. Durani's > > > > head > > > > >> refuses > > > > >> to go away! > > > > >> > > > > >> Best, > > > > >> > > > > >> Zainab > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:18:59 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > Saddha Devi, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > > > > >> > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free man > > > > ? > > > > >> > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges against > > > > a > > > > >> > terrorist > > > > >> > has not been framed ? > > > > >> > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with > > > > > "intellectuals" > > > > >> > leading it? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand > > > > how safe > > > > >> the > > > > >> > Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Pawan > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < shuddha at sarai.net > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >> Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the > > > > point > > > > > that > > > > >> a > > > > >> >> woman > > > > >> >> > is molested , they are prone to it." > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is natural > > > > that > > > > >> >> women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> I personally think that there is a world of a difference > > > > between the > > > > >> >> estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed > > > > forces in a > > > > >> >> combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of being > > > > a > > > > > woman. > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, especially > > > > one in > > > > >> >> uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a > > > > situation of > > > > >> >> armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair > > > > target. > > > > > If > > > > >> >> they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed > > > > forces. > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to face > > > > and > > > > >> >> deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman > > > > does not > > > > >> >> make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many societies, > > > > women > > > > > do > > > > >> >> not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say the > > > > > > > > > streets > > > > >> >> of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In > > > > most > > > > > cities > > > > >> >> in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner Durni > > > > > suggests > > > > >> >> they are. > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> By equating these two very different kinds of situation, what > > > > Pawan > > > > >> >> Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind > > > > of > > > > > people > > > > >> >> who will naturally face molestation in any and every > > > > circumstance, > > > > > they > > > > >> >> are in his words "prone to it". > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man Pawan > > > > Durani > > > > >> >> is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> the kind obviously, who (logically following through his > > > > argument) > > > > >> >> thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation > > > > goes, > > > > >> >> because, they "are prone to it". > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under any > > > > >> >> circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan Durani. > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> regards > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> Shuddha > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > People like you have zero nationalism and negative > > > > intellectualism. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not > > > > care > > > > > even > > > > >> > for > > > > >> >> the > > > > >> >> > martyrs of his country. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> >>Hi, > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, > > > > have some > > > > >> >> >>questions > > > > >> >> >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a > > > > militant? > > > > >> >> >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident > > > > but a > > > > > part > > > > >> > of > > > > >> >> >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that > > > > he'll be > > > > >> >> >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know that > > > > they'll > > > > >> be > > > > >> >> >> targetted by militants > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his personal > > > > point > > > > > of > > > > >> >> view. > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. This > > > > post is > > > > >> > not > > > > >> >> >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to change > > > > his > > > > > mind > > > > >> >> >> and make him apologise. > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing unrelated > > > > people > > > > >> as > > > > >> >> >> militants and cops showing innocent people as criminals > > > > so we > > > > >> > know > > > > >> >> >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life that > > > > needs > > > > > to > > > > >> > be > > > > >> >> >>faced > > > > >> >> >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not > > > > enhance it > > > > > by > > > > >> >> >>hate. > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India > > > > come in > > > > >> since > > > > >> >> >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to > > > > Afghanistan to > > > > > the > > > > >> > US > > > > >> >> >> and Ireland > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to > > > > what > > > > > you're > > > > >> >> >>trying to say, > > > > >> >> >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you > > > > should > > > > >> > include > > > > >> >> >>the debate. > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >>Rgds, Partha > > > > >> >> >>.................... > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > > > > >> >> argument................god > > > > >> >> >>>Bless India. > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul < adityarajkaul at gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > >> >> >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi > > > > Khanna's > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>misfortune > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>>was that he was in uniform. > > > > >> >> >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his colleagues > > > > were > > > > >> > waiting > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>>near > > > > >> >> >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to > > > > reach > > > > > them > > > > >> > to > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>the > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>>airport. > > > > >> >> >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler > > > > carrying > > > > > four > > > > >> > to > > > > >> >> >>>>five > > > > >> >> >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. The > > > > next > > > > >> thing > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>that > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was > > > > the last > > > > >> > thing > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>he > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 were > > > > > injured. > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>Hardly > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, > > > > manned by a > > > > >> > head > > > > >> >> >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 rifles > > > > > remained > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>silent > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>>as > > > > >> >> >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, taking > > > > a > > > > >> > clockwise > > > > >> >> >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly into > > > > >> > Srinagar's > > > > >> >> >>>>numerous back lanes. > > > > >> >> >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik > > > > was to > > > > >> > defend > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>the > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. > > > > They were > > > > >> the > > > > >> >> >>>>agents > > > > >> >> >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > >> >> >>>>*-- > > > > >> >> >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > >> >> >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > > > >> >> >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > > >> >> >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > > > >> >> >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > > > >> >> >>>>_________________________________________ > > > > >> >> >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > city. > > > > >> >> >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >> >> >>>>To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > >> >> >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >> >> >>>>To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >> >> >>>>List archive: < > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >> >>>_________________________________________ > > > > >> >> >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >> >> >>>To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > >> >> >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >> >> >>>To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >> >> >>>List archive: > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >>-- > > > > >> >> >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > >> >> >> http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > > > > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >> >> > List archive: > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with > > > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >> > List archive: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 16:37:50 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:37:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officerswere agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709140405v3a9a9466i2c25bf5e8ef2707f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709132010p7f99108fs4c877b58bcf22f8@mail.gmail.com> <78f5ab026716676afece88c17bc5057e@mail.xtdnet.nl> <32144e990709140329w33fe2c56o43c187a19dce6ceb@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140335t1bf2937eqf98f0129ba9f51a5@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140341s6819d571n6227f68a543f507b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140405v3a9a9466i2c25bf5e8ef2707f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140407s18e97acfuca3afae9ee578295@mail.gmail.com> And you claim to be a Hindu and an Indian!! Crap for describing you is band on the spot. Congratulations, Zainab, for hitting the nail on the head in your description - except that I don't think it's stuck only in the head. On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Zainab is a female , that is a fact know to you ! > > And if Zainab write a crap , what would he /she expect in return ? > > As I said ....Give respect ...take respect...... > > I only speak the language other understands.....and deserves......... > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Between crap and making a comment with sexual connotations, there's a > > huge difference. > > > > I don't know about you, but as a resident and believer in Bharat Mata, I > > do hold the feminine as sacred and worthy of respect. My ethos as an Indian > > and a son has taught me to give respect. > > > > Yes, I do believe that a Hindu and a man from the land of Gandhi should > > know how to behave. > > > > And do you really think Zainab's talking of crap stuck in the head is at > > the same level as the filthy sexual phrase mentioned by you? Would you > > respond to the phrase "Oh Shit" that is used by kids today with sexually > > explicit phrases like you used? > > > > If yes, I am really worried about what my daughetr will go through in > > school. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > Partha , > > > > > > I am not one who takes thing lying down . I wonder what made you think > > > that i should be docile when Zainab wrote this about me > > > > > > ">> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet cleaning > > > liquid.>> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. Durani's > > > head >> refuses >> to go away ." > > > > > > Do you expect me to shower him/her with roses ? > > > > > > I only reply in the same tone as one deserves . > > > > > > Give respect ...take respect....... > > > > > > or do you think Hindus are not supposed to react like that ? > > > > > > So much for Psuedo Secular people like you .....and you did not have a > > > word of advise for Zainab. > > > > > > Zainab perhaps should first learn to use a decent language, and learn > > > it fast . > > > > > > Would you Zainab ? > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Zainab, > > > > > > > > For the vouch part, am a happily married man with 3 lovely children > > > > (though they do incite thoughts of violence at times!) - though that doesn't > > > > mean much. For the rest, as far as my friends are concerned, am more > > > > interested in their heart and thoughts than where they come from or what > > > > religion they are. > > > > > > > > More than that, as an Indian and a male, I apologise for the > > > > pathetic remark by Pawan. > > > > ............................. > > > > > > > > Pawan, > > > > It's shocking to see the extremely rude reply you made. If you are > > > > incapable of making a response then at least don't stoop to the level of > > > > filthy curses. > > > > > > > > If nothing else, I do hope that you are worried about the impression > > > > of India when a reasoned response is answered by trash like this. > > > > > > > > After your rape comment, this response of yours is extremely > > > > frightening and off putting. > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, zainab < zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > God bless you! > > > > > Peace be with you! > > > > > India is great! > > > > > Jai bharat! > > > > > Jai bharat mata! > > > > > Jai Bharat mata ke Pawan putra! > > > > > Jai seeta ram! > > > > > Jai ram ram! > > > > > Jai hindustan! > > > > > Jai hindu! > > > > > > > > > > Happy???? > > > > > > > > > > Z > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:40:42 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Zainab , > > > > > > > > > > > > And do you have anything else stuck up as well ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, zainab < zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Dear Pawan, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I feel quite safe in Shuddha's company despite being a woman > > > > > and > > > > > >> technically a Muslim and technically a citizen of this country > > > > > called > > > > > >> India. (I don't know Partha personally so I cannot vouch as > > > > > > confidently!) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> And it seems that either there is a problem with your eyes or > > > > > there is a > > > > > >> problem with your brain's processing and comprehension > > > > > mechanisms but it > > > > > >> has been repeatedly said that none of us are (I am assuming) > > > > > fans of > > > > > > Yasin > > > > > >> Malik's. Like Shuddha, I too condemn violence but also believe > > > > > that when > > > > > >> force is used against you and your voice is constantly being > > > > > repressed > > > > > > to > > > > > >> the extent that you silenced when you try to speak, in these > > > > > situations, > > > > > >> we > > > > > >> should not be surprised is violence is taken recourse to. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet > > > > > cleaning liquid. > > > > > >> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. Durani's > > > > > head > > > > > >> refuses > > > > > >> to go away! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Best, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Zainab > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:18:59 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> > Saddha Devi, > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > > > > > >> > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free > > > > > man ? > > > > > >> > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges > > > > > against a > > > > > >> > terrorist > > > > > >> > has not been framed ? > > > > > >> > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with > > > > > > "intellectuals" > > > > > >> > leading it? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > If this all seems natural to you , then one should understand > > > > > how safe > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Pawan > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >> Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's the > > > > > point > > > > > > that > > > > > >> a > > > > > >> >> woman > > > > > >> >> > is molested , they are prone to it." > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is > > > > > natural that > > > > > >> >> women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> I personally think that there is a world of a difference > > > > > between the > > > > > >> >> estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed > > > > > forces in a > > > > > >> >> combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of > > > > > being a > > > > > > woman. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, > > > > > especially one in > > > > > >> >> uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a > > > > > situation of > > > > > >> >> armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a fair > > > > > target. > > > > > > If > > > > > >> >> they did not know that, they would not have joined the armed > > > > > forces. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to > > > > > face and > > > > > >> >> deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a woman > > > > > does not > > > > > >> >> make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many > > > > > societies, women > > > > > > do > > > > > >> >> not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say > > > > > the > > > > > > streets > > > > > >> >> of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In > > > > > most > > > > > > cities > > > > > >> >> in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner > > > > > Durni > > > > > > suggests > > > > > >> >> they are. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> By equating these two very different kinds of situation, > > > > > what Pawan > > > > > >> >> Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special kind > > > > > of > > > > > > people > > > > > >> >> who will naturally face molestation in any and every > > > > > circumstance, > > > > > > they > > > > > >> >> are in his words "prone to it". > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > >> >> is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> the kind obviously, who (logically following through his > > > > > argument) > > > > > >> >> thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation > > > > > goes, > > > > > >> >> because, they "are prone to it". > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under > > > > > any > > > > > >> >> circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan > > > > > Durani. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> regards > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> Shuddha > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > People like you have zero nationalism and negative > > > > > intellectualism. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does not > > > > > care > > > > > > even > > > > > >> > for > > > > > >> >> the > > > > > >> >> > martyrs of his country. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >>Hi, > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list reader, > > > > > have some > > > > > >> >> >>questions > > > > > >> >> >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a > > > > > militant? > > > > > >> >> >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic incident > > > > > but a > > > > > > part > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> >> >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows that > > > > > he'll be > > > > > >> >> >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know > > > > > that they'll > > > > > >> be > > > > > >> >> >> targetted by militants > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his > > > > > personal point > > > > > > of > > > > > >> >> view. > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. > > > > > This post is > > > > > >> > not > > > > > >> >> >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to > > > > > change his > > > > > > mind > > > > > >> >> >> and make him apologise. > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing > > > > > unrelated people > > > > > >> as > > > > > >> >> >> militants and cops showing innocent people as > > > > > criminals so we > > > > > >> > know > > > > > >> >> >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life > > > > > that needs > > > > > > to > > > > > >> > be > > > > > >> >> >>faced > > > > > >> >> >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not > > > > > enhance it > > > > > > by > > > > > >> >> >>hate. > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India > > > > > come in > > > > > >> since > > > > > >> >> >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to > > > > > Afghanistan to > > > > > > the > > > > > >> > US > > > > > >> >> >> and Ireland > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to > > > > > what > > > > > > you're > > > > > >> >> >>trying to say, > > > > > >> >> >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case you > > > > > should > > > > > >> > include > > > > > >> >> >>the debate. > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >>Rgds, Partha > > > > > >> >> >>.................... > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > > > > > >> >> argument................god > > > > > >> >> >>>Bless India. > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul < adityarajkaul at gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > > >> >> >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi > > > > > Khanna's > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>misfortune > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>>was that he was in uniform. > > > > > >> >> >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his > > > > > colleagues were > > > > > >> > waiting > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>>near > > > > > >> >> >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was to > > > > > reach > > > > > > them > > > > > >> > to > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>the > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>>airport. > > > > > >> >> >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler > > > > > carrying > > > > > > four > > > > > >> > to > > > > > >> >> >>>>five > > > > > >> >> >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. > > > > > The next > > > > > >> thing > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>that > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That was > > > > > the last > > > > > >> > thing > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>he > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 > > > > > were > > > > > > injured. > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>Hardly > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, > > > > > manned by a > > > > > >> > head > > > > > >> >> >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 > > > > > rifles > > > > > > remained > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>silent > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>>as > > > > > >> >> >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, > > > > > taking a > > > > > >> > clockwise > > > > > >> >> >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly > > > > > into > > > > > >> > Srinagar's > > > > > >> >> >>>>numerous back lanes. > > > > > >> >> >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin Malik > > > > > was to > > > > > >> > defend > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>the > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. > > > > > They were > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> >> >>>>agents > > > > > >> >> >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > > >> >> >>>>*-- > > > > > >> >> >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > >> >> >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > > > > >> >> >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > > > >> >> >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > > > > >> >> >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > > > > >> >> >>>>_________________________________________ > > > > > >> >> >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > > city. > > > > > >> >> >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > >> >> >>>>To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > >> >> >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > >> >> >>>>To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >> >> >>>>List archive: < > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >> >>>_________________________________________ > > > > > >> >> >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > > city. > > > > > >> >> >>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > >> >> >>>To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > >> >> >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > >> >> >>>To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >> >> >>>List archive: > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >>-- > > > > > >> >> >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > > >> >> >> http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > > > > > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > > city. > > > > > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >> >> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > > > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with > > > > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From rana at ranadasgupta.com Fri Sep 14 16:41:34 2007 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:41:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> References: <344027.16449.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <46E27CBE.3000806@ranadasgupta.com> <6deae8300709080357v42c18041gd71e10307695eff6@mail.gmail.com> <46E287F1.4060306@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: <46EA6C66.7010702@ranadasgupta.com> Rana Dasgupta wrote: > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the enormous > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to say > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. People > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from > violent attacks. I take it all back. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 17:19:25 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:19:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officerswere agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <32144e990709140407s18e97acfuca3afae9ee578295@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709132010p7f99108fs4c877b58bcf22f8@mail.gmail.com> <78f5ab026716676afece88c17bc5057e@mail.xtdnet.nl> <32144e990709140329w33fe2c56o43c187a19dce6ceb@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140335t1bf2937eqf98f0129ba9f51a5@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140341s6819d571n6227f68a543f507b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140405v3a9a9466i2c25bf5e8ef2707f@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140407s18e97acfuca3afae9ee578295@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709140449p157c10d7ncb4747aeda2d379e@mail.gmail.com> And where will the headless like you get stuck......no puns intended On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > And you claim to be a Hindu and an Indian!! > > Crap for describing you is band on the spot. Congratulations, Zainab, for > hitting the nail on the head in your description - except that I don't think > it's stuck only in the head. > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Zainab is a female , that is a fact know to you ! > > > > And if Zainab write a crap , what would he /she expect in return ? > > > > As I said ....Give respect ...take respect...... > > > > I only speak the language other understands.....and deserves......... > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > Between crap and making a comment with sexual connotations, there's a > > > huge difference. > > > > > > I don't know about you, but as a resident and believer in Bharat Mata, > > > I do hold the feminine as sacred and worthy of respect. My ethos as an > > > Indian and a son has taught me to give respect. > > > > > > Yes, I do believe that a Hindu and a man from the land of Gandhi > > > should know how to behave. > > > > > > And do you really think Zainab's talking of crap stuck in the head is > > > at the same level as the filthy sexual phrase mentioned by you? Would you > > > respond to the phrase "Oh Shit" that is used by kids today with sexually > > > explicit phrases like you used? > > > > > > If yes, I am really worried about what my daughetr will go through in > > > school. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > Partha , > > > > > > > > I am not one who takes thing lying down . I wonder what made you > > > > think that i should be docile when Zainab wrote this about me > > > > > > > > ">> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet > > > > cleaning liquid.>> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. > > > > Durani's head >> refuses >> to go away ." > > > > > > > > Do you expect me to shower him/her with roses ? > > > > > > > > I only reply in the same tone as one deserves . > > > > > > > > Give respect ...take respect....... > > > > > > > > or do you think Hindus are not supposed to react like that ? > > > > > > > > So much for Psuedo Secular people like you .....and you did not have > > > > a word of advise for Zainab. > > > > > > > > Zainab perhaps should first learn to use a decent language, and > > > > learn it fast . > > > > > > > > Would you Zainab ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Zainab, > > > > > > > > > > For the vouch part, am a happily married man with 3 lovely > > > > > children (though they do incite thoughts of violence at times!) - though > > > > > that doesn't mean much. For the rest, as far as my friends are concerned, am > > > > > more interested in their heart and thoughts than where they come from or > > > > > what religion they are. > > > > > > > > > > More than that, as an Indian and a male, I apologise for the > > > > > pathetic remark by Pawan. > > > > > ............................. > > > > > > > > > > Pawan, > > > > > It's shocking to see the extremely rude reply you made. If you are > > > > > incapable of making a response then at least don't stoop to the level of > > > > > filthy curses. > > > > > > > > > > If nothing else, I do hope that you are worried about the > > > > > impression of India when a reasoned response is answered by trash like this. > > > > > > > > > > After your rape comment, this response of yours is extremely > > > > > frightening and off putting. > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, zainab < zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > > God bless you! > > > > > > Peace be with you! > > > > > > India is great! > > > > > > Jai bharat! > > > > > > Jai bharat mata! > > > > > > Jai Bharat mata ke Pawan putra! > > > > > > Jai seeta ram! > > > > > > Jai ram ram! > > > > > > Jai hindustan! > > > > > > Jai hindu! > > > > > > > > > > > > Happy???? > > > > > > > > > > > > Z > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:40:42 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Zainab , > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do you have anything else stuck up as well ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, zainab < zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Dear Pawan, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I feel quite safe in Shuddha's company despite being a woman > > > > > > and > > > > > > >> technically a Muslim and technically a citizen of this > > > > > > country called > > > > > > >> India. (I don't know Partha personally so I cannot vouch as > > > > > > > confidently!) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> And it seems that either there is a problem with your eyes or > > > > > > there is a > > > > > > >> problem with your brain's processing and comprehension > > > > > > mechanisms but it > > > > > > >> has been repeatedly said that none of us are (I am assuming) > > > > > > fans of > > > > > > > Yasin > > > > > > >> Malik's. Like Shuddha, I too condemn violence but also > > > > > > believe that when > > > > > > >> force is used against you and your voice is constantly being > > > > > > repressed > > > > > > > to > > > > > > >> the extent that you silenced when you try to speak, in these > > > > > > situations, > > > > > > >> we > > > > > > >> should not be surprised is violence is taken recourse to. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet > > > > > > cleaning liquid. > > > > > > >> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. > > > > > > Durani's head > > > > > > >> refuses > > > > > > >> to go away! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Best, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Zainab > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:18:59 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > >> > Saddha Devi, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > > > > > > >> > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a free > > > > > > man ? > > > > > > >> > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges > > > > > > against a > > > > > > >> > terrorist > > > > > > >> > has not been framed ? > > > > > > >> > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with > > > > > > > "intellectuals" > > > > > > >> > leading it? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > If this all seems natural to you , then one should > > > > > > understand how safe > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> > Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Pawan > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> >> Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's > > > > > > the point > > > > > > > that > > > > > > >> a > > > > > > >> >> woman > > > > > > >> >> > is molested , they are prone to it." > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is > > > > > > natural that > > > > > > >> >> women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> I personally think that there is a world of a difference > > > > > > between the > > > > > > >> >> estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the armed > > > > > > forces in a > > > > > > >> >> combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of > > > > > > being a > > > > > > > woman. > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, > > > > > > especially one in > > > > > > >> >> uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a > > > > > > situation of > > > > > > >> >> armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a > > > > > > fair target. > > > > > > > If > > > > > > >> >> they did not know that, they would not have joined the > > > > > > armed forces. > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to > > > > > > face and > > > > > > >> >> deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a > > > > > > woman does not > > > > > > >> >> make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many > > > > > > societies, women > > > > > > > do > > > > > > >> >> not face the level of molestation that they do in lets say > > > > > > the > > > > > > > streets > > > > > > >> >> of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. In > > > > > > most > > > > > > > cities > > > > > > >> >> in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner > > > > > > Durni > > > > > > > suggests > > > > > > >> >> they are. > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> By equating these two very different kinds of situation, > > > > > > what Pawan > > > > > > >> >> Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special > > > > > > kind of > > > > > > > people > > > > > > >> >> who will naturally face molestation in any and every > > > > > > circumstance, > > > > > > > they > > > > > > >> >> are in his words "prone to it". > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > >> >> is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> the kind obviously, who (logically following through his > > > > > > argument) > > > > > > >> >> thinks that all women are fair game, as far as molestation > > > > > > goes, > > > > > > >> >> because, they "are prone to it". > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> I think that we can conclude from this that no woman under > > > > > > any > > > > > > >> >> circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan > > > > > > Durani. > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> regards > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> Shuddha > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > People like you have zero nationalism and negative > > > > > > intellectualism. > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does > > > > > > not care > > > > > > > even > > > > > > >> > for > > > > > > >> >> the > > > > > > >> >> > martyrs of his country. > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >>Hi, > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list > > > > > > reader, have some > > > > > > >> >> >>questions > > > > > > >> >> >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a > > > > > > militant? > > > > > > >> >> >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic > > > > > > incident but a > > > > > > > part > > > > > > >> > of > > > > > > >> >> >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows > > > > > > that he'll be > > > > > > >> >> >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know > > > > > > that they'll > > > > > > >> be > > > > > > >> >> >> targetted by militants > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his > > > > > > personal point > > > > > > > of > > > > > > >> >> view. > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. > > > > > > This post is > > > > > > >> > not > > > > > > >> >> >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to > > > > > > change his > > > > > > > mind > > > > > > >> >> >> and make him apologise. > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing > > > > > > unrelated people > > > > > > >> as > > > > > > >> >> >> militants and cops showing innocent people as > > > > > > criminals so we > > > > > > >> > know > > > > > > >> >> >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life > > > > > > that needs > > > > > > > to > > > > > > >> > be > > > > > > >> >> >>faced > > > > > > >> >> >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and not > > > > > > enhance it > > > > > > > by > > > > > > >> >> >>hate. > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even India > > > > > > come in > > > > > > >> since > > > > > > >> >> >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to > > > > > > Afghanistan to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > US > > > > > > >> >> >> and Ireland > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as to > > > > > > what > > > > > > > you're > > > > > > >> >> >>trying to say, > > > > > > >> >> >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case > > > > > > you should > > > > > > >> > include > > > > > > >> >> >>the debate. > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >>Rgds, Partha > > > > > > >> >> >>.................... > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > > > > > > >> >> argument................god > > > > > > >> >> >>>Bless India. > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul < adityarajkaul at gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader Ravi > > > > > > Khanna's > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>misfortune > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>was that he was in uniform. > > > > > > >> >> >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his > > > > > > colleagues were > > > > > > >> > waiting > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>near > > > > > > >> >> >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was > > > > > > to reach > > > > > > > them > > > > > > >> > to > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>the > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>airport. > > > > > > >> >> >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a two-wheeler > > > > > > carrying > > > > > > > four > > > > > > >> > to > > > > > > >> >> >>>>five > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew up. > > > > > > The next > > > > > > >> thing > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>that > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That > > > > > > was the last > > > > > > >> > thing > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>he > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, 10 > > > > > > were > > > > > > > injured. > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>Hardly > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, > > > > > > manned by a > > > > > > >> > head > > > > > > >> >> >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 > > > > > > rifles > > > > > > > remained > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>silent > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>as > > > > > > >> >> >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, > > > > > > taking a > > > > > > >> > clockwise > > > > > > >> >> >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished unhurriedly > > > > > > into > > > > > > >> > Srinagar's > > > > > > >> >> >>>>numerous back lanes. > > > > > > >> >> >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin > > > > > > Malik was to > > > > > > >> > defend > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>the > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent victims. > > > > > > They were > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> >> >>>>agents > > > > > > >> >> >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > > > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>*-- > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > > > > >> >> >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > > > > > >> >> >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > > > > > >> >> >>>>_________________________________________ > > > > > > >> >> >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > > > city. > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > >> >> >>>>To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > >> >> >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > >> >> >>>>To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > >> >> >>>>List archive: < > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >> >>>_________________________________________ > > > > > > >> >> >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > > > city. > > > > > > >> >> >>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > >> >> >>>To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > >> >> >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > >> >> >>>To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > >> >> >>>List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >>-- > > > > > > >> >> >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > > > >> >> >> http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > > > > > > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > > > city. > > > > > > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > >> >> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > > > > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > with > > > > > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > >> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 17:36:41 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:36:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKLF leader Yasin Malik says unarmed IAF officerswere agents of Enemy...defends killing them ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709140449p157c10d7ncb4747aeda2d379e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709132010p7f99108fs4c877b58bcf22f8@mail.gmail.com> <78f5ab026716676afece88c17bc5057e@mail.xtdnet.nl> <32144e990709140329w33fe2c56o43c187a19dce6ceb@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140335t1bf2937eqf98f0129ba9f51a5@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140341s6819d571n6227f68a543f507b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140405v3a9a9466i2c25bf5e8ef2707f@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709140407s18e97acfuca3afae9ee578295@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709140449p157c10d7ncb4747aeda2d379e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140506x3c4ac35w281334c9f3c779f8@mail.gmail.com> Stuck here with you, and the stink is overwhelming. If you can construct an argument based in fact and reason (and you still haven't been able to answer the original question or any of the subsequent ones), then let's debate the issue. Those questions are still a part of this post. However, in case you have problems finding it, can copy and paste them again. If not, why post junk and abuse? Stick to blogging where no one will question your illogical and unfounded rants. Rgds, Partha On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > And where will the headless like you get stuck......no puns intended > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > And you claim to be a Hindu and an Indian!! > > > > Crap for describing you is band on the spot. Congratulations, Zainab, > > for hitting the nail on the head in your description - except that I don't > > think it's stuck only in the head. > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > Zainab is a female , that is a fact know to you ! > > > > > > And if Zainab write a crap , what would he /she expect in return ? > > > > > > As I said ....Give respect ...take respect...... > > > > > > I only speak the language other understands.....and deserves......... > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Between crap and making a comment with sexual connotations, there's > > > > a huge difference. > > > > > > > > I don't know about you, but as a resident and believer in Bharat > > > > Mata, I do hold the feminine as sacred and worthy of respect. My ethos as an > > > > Indian and a son has taught me to give respect. > > > > > > > > Yes, I do believe that a Hindu and a man from the land of Gandhi > > > > should know how to behave. > > > > > > > > And do you really think Zainab's talking of crap stuck in the head > > > > is at the same level as the filthy sexual phrase mentioned by you? Would you > > > > respond to the phrase "Oh Shit" that is used by kids today with sexually > > > > explicit phrases like you used? > > > > > > > > If yes, I am really worried about what my daughetr will go through > > > > in school. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Partha , > > > > > > > > > > I am not one who takes thing lying down . I wonder what made you > > > > > think that i should be docile when Zainab wrote this about me > > > > > > > > > > ">> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet > > > > > cleaning liquid.>> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. > > > > > Durani's head >> refuses >> to go away ." > > > > > > > > > > Do you expect me to shower him/her with roses ? > > > > > > > > > > I only reply in the same tone as one deserves . > > > > > > > > > > Give respect ...take respect....... > > > > > > > > > > or do you think Hindus are not supposed to react like that ? > > > > > > > > > > So much for Psuedo Secular people like you .....and you did not > > > > > have a word of advise for Zainab. > > > > > > > > > > Zainab perhaps should first learn to use a decent language, and > > > > > learn it fast . > > > > > > > > > > Would you Zainab ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Zainab, > > > > > > > > > > > > For the vouch part, am a happily married man with 3 lovely > > > > > > children (though they do incite thoughts of violence at times!) - though > > > > > > that doesn't mean much. For the rest, as far as my friends are concerned, am > > > > > > more interested in their heart and thoughts than where they come from or > > > > > > what religion they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > More than that, as an Indian and a male, I apologise for the > > > > > > pathetic remark by Pawan. > > > > > > ............................. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan, > > > > > > It's shocking to see the extremely rude reply you made. If you > > > > > > are incapable of making a response then at least don't stoop to the level of > > > > > > filthy curses. > > > > > > > > > > > > If nothing else, I do hope that you are worried about the > > > > > > impression of India when a reasoned response is answered by trash like this. > > > > > > > > > > > > After your rape comment, this response of yours is extremely > > > > > > frightening and off putting. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, zainab < zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God bless you! > > > > > > > Peace be with you! > > > > > > > India is great! > > > > > > > Jai bharat! > > > > > > > Jai bharat mata! > > > > > > > Jai Bharat mata ke Pawan putra! > > > > > > > Jai seeta ram! > > > > > > > Jai ram ram! > > > > > > > Jai hindustan! > > > > > > > Jai hindu! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Happy???? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Z > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:40:42 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Zainab , > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do you have anything else stuck up as well ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/07, zainab < zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I feel quite safe in Shuddha's company despite being a > > > > > > > woman and > > > > > > > >> technically a Muslim and technically a citizen of this > > > > > > > country called > > > > > > > >> India. (I don't know Partha personally so I cannot vouch as > > > > > > > > confidently!) > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> And it seems that either there is a problem with your eyes > > > > > > > or there is a > > > > > > > >> problem with your brain's processing and comprehension > > > > > > > mechanisms but it > > > > > > > >> has been repeatedly said that none of us are (I am > > > > > > > assuming) fans of > > > > > > > > Yasin > > > > > > > >> Malik's. Like Shuddha, I too condemn violence but also > > > > > > > believe that when > > > > > > > >> force is used against you and your voice is constantly > > > > > > > being repressed > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > >> the extent that you silenced when you try to speak, in > > > > > > > these situations, > > > > > > > >> we > > > > > > > >> should not be surprised is violence is taken recourse to. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Perhaps Shuddha you need to change your brand of toilet > > > > > > > cleaning liquid. > > > > > > > >> Despite repeated postings, the hard stuck crap in Mr. > > > > > > > Durani's head > > > > > > > >> refuses > > > > > > > >> to go away! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Best, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Zainab > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:18:59 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > Saddha Devi, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > You have a basic problem with patriotism. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > Is it indeed natural for a soldier to get killed ? > > > > > > > >> > Is it natural for the killer like Yasin Malik to be a > > > > > > > free man ? > > > > > > > >> > Is it natural that even after so many years the charges > > > > > > > against a > > > > > > > >> > terrorist > > > > > > > >> > has not been framed ? > > > > > > > >> > Is it natural for a killer to have a fan following with > > > > > > > > "intellectuals" > > > > > > > >> > leading it? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > If this all seems natural to you , then one should > > > > > > > understand how safe > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > >> > Indians are with you and Partho as their co -citizens ? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > Pawan > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> >> Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > What if I counter your first argument with ..."What's > > > > > > > the point > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > >> a > > > > > > > >> >> woman > > > > > > > >> >> > is molested , they are prone to it." > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> Interesting, that Pawan Durani should think that it is > > > > > > > natural that > > > > > > > >> >> women should be 'prone' to being molested. > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> I personally think that there is a world of a difference > > > > > > > between the > > > > > > > >> >> estimation of risks that uniformed personnel of the > > > > > > > armed forces in a > > > > > > > >> >> combat zone knows that they faces, and the situation of > > > > > > > being a > > > > > > > > woman. > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> No one can deny that a member of the armed forces, > > > > > > > especially one in > > > > > > > >> >> uniform, wears that uniform knowing fully well that in a > > > > > > > situation of > > > > > > > >> >> armed conflict, that uniform will mark him or her as a > > > > > > > fair target. > > > > > > > > If > > > > > > > >> >> they did not know that, they would not have joined the > > > > > > > armed forces. > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> A soldier who wears a military uniform makes a choice to > > > > > > > face and > > > > > > > >> >> deliver aggression, if need be. A person who is born a > > > > > > > woman does not > > > > > > > >> >> make a choice to face molestation. In fact in many > > > > > > > societies, women > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > >> >> not face the level of molestation that they do in lets > > > > > > > say the > > > > > > > > streets > > > > > > > >> >> of Delhi, regardless of what they happen to be wearing. > > > > > > > In most > > > > > > > > cities > > > > > > > >> >> in the world, women are not "prone to it" in the manner > > > > > > > Durni > > > > > > > > suggests > > > > > > > >> >> they are. > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> By equating these two very different kinds of situation, > > > > > > > what Pawan > > > > > > > >> >> Durani is saying is as follows - women are that special > > > > > > > kind of > > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > >> >> who will naturally face molestation in any and every > > > > > > > circumstance, > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > >> >> are in his words "prone to it". > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> It makes me ask a set of questions about the kind of man > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > >> >> is, and about the things that he is 'prone' to > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> the kind obviously, who (logically following through his > > > > > > > argument) > > > > > > > >> >> thinks that all women are fair game, as far as > > > > > > > molestation goes, > > > > > > > >> >> because, they "are prone to it". > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> I think that we can conclude from this that no woman > > > > > > > under any > > > > > > > >> >> circumstances should feel safe in the company of Pawan > > > > > > > Durani. > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> regards > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> Shuddha > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > Does that mean that we dont owe any responsibility. > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > People like you have zero nationalism and negative > > > > > > > intellectualism. > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > I would still say ...may God Bless even you , who does > > > > > > > not care > > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > >> > for > > > > > > > >> >> the > > > > > > > >> >> > martyrs of his country. > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > On 9/13/07, Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>Hi, > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >>Not as an 'intellectual', but as an ordinary list > > > > > > > reader, have some > > > > > > > >> >> >>questions > > > > > > > >> >> >>1. What's the point - that a soldier was killed by a > > > > > > > militant? > > > > > > > >> >> >> That's a part of their job profile. A tragic > > > > > > > incident but a > > > > > > > > part > > > > > > > >> > of > > > > > > > >> >> >> the armed forces life. Just as a militant knows > > > > > > > that he'll be > > > > > > > >> >> >> targetted by armed forces fire, armed forces know > > > > > > > that they'll > > > > > > > >> be > > > > > > > >> >> >> targetted by militants > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >>2. Yasin Malik didn't apologise? Well, that's his > > > > > > > personal point > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > >> >> view. > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> Like he has his, you have yours - and thy differ. > > > > > > > This post is > > > > > > > >> > not > > > > > > > >> >> >> marked to him so you're obviously not trying to > > > > > > > change his > > > > > > > > mind > > > > > > > >> >> >> and make him apologise. > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >>3. We've all seen footage of armed forces showing > > > > > > > unrelated people > > > > > > > >> as > > > > > > > >> >> >> militants and cops showing innocent people as > > > > > > > criminals so we > > > > > > > >> > know > > > > > > > >> >> >> that both sides play dirty. That's a fact of life > > > > > > > that needs > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > >> > be > > > > > > > >> >> >>faced > > > > > > > >> >> >> by unbiased reporting to clean the problem and > > > > > > > not enhance it > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > >> >> >>hate. > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >>4. Where does "God Bless India" come in - or even > > > > > > > India come in > > > > > > > >> since > > > > > > > >> >> >> militancy is a global problem from Ceylon to > > > > > > > Afghanistan to > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> > US > > > > > > > >> >> >> and Ireland > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >>This pointless post has got me completely confused as > > > > > > > to what > > > > > > > > you're > > > > > > > >> >> >>trying to say, > > > > > > > >> >> >>unless it's linked to a larger debate - in which case > > > > > > > you should > > > > > > > >> > include > > > > > > > >> >> >>the debate. > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >>Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > >> >> >>.................... > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >>On 9/13/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>And the "intellectuals" will still have some > > > > > > > >> >> argument................god > > > > > > > >> >> >>>Bless India. > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>On 9/13/07, Aditya Raj Kaul < adityarajkaul at gmail.com> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>*The agents of the 'enemy'** - Rediff News > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>*** *Srinagar.* January 25, 1990 Squadron Leader > > > > > > > Ravi Khanna's > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>misfortune > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>was that he was in uniform. > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>That winter morning nine years ago, he and his > > > > > > > colleagues were > > > > > > > >> > waiting > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>near > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>the Rawalpura bus stand. An Indian Air Force bus was > > > > > > > to reach > > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > >> > to > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>the > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>airport. > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>At around 0730 hours a Maruti Gypsy and a > > > > > > > two-wheeler carrying > > > > > > > > four > > > > > > > >> > to > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>five > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front militants drew > > > > > > > up. The next > > > > > > > >> thing > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>that > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Khanna knew was bullets pumping into his body. That > > > > > > > was the last > > > > > > > >> > thing > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>he > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>knew. Around him 13 more fell. Three of them dead, > > > > > > > 10 were > > > > > > > > injured. > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>Hardly > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>50 yards away was a Jammu and Kashmir police picket, > > > > > > > manned by a > > > > > > > >> > head > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>constable and seven subordinates. Their eight .303 > > > > > > > rifles > > > > > > > > remained > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>silent > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>as > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>the militants finished emptying their weapons and, > > > > > > > taking a > > > > > > > >> > clockwise > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>circuit of the roundabout ahead, vanished > > > > > > > unhurriedly into > > > > > > > >> > Srinagar's > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>numerous back lanes. > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>*Even after he gave up the gun, JKLF leader Yasin > > > > > > > Malik was to > > > > > > > >> > defend > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>the > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>killings: The IAF personnel were not innocent > > > > > > > victims. They were > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>agents > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>of the 'enemy'. * > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>*-- > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>_________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > > > > > the city. > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>List archive: < > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > >> >> >>> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>_________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> >> >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > >> >> >>>Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > >> >> >>>To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > > >> >> >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > >> >> >>>To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > >> >> >>>List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >>-- > > > > > > > >> >> >>Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > > > > >> >> >> http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > >> >> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > >> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 17:37:01 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 05:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Regarding India Map Message-ID: <582121.36410.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Martin, Could you please correct the India Map. Some parts of Jammu and Kashmir of India are mistakenly joined into Pakistan and China. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 17:42:48 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:42:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thanks for Reading In-Reply-To: <601670.70770.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <601670.70770.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709140512p38436cf9gc35118ad5ce6ba18@mail.gmail.com> Dhatri, Your points are inimical to themselves. Point 4 mentions following the law of the land. Point 1 and 2 mention Pakistan as a state, wherein by the law of our land it's another nation. Please try and think before you post a topic where you contradict your own logic. Rgds, Partha ................... On 9/14/07, we wi wrote: > > Dear Readers, > > Again noises are raising on schooling,Kashmir and roots. Jammu > and Kashmir(Our HEAD) with occupied territories is undoubtedly Integral part > of India like any other state. You must understand the fact the any living > being will not survive with just a body. So as India and Indians. Kashmiri > people are very much Indians. If any body feeling beyond then they are just > perpetrators/Razakars/aliens. That's why I posted several listings > pertaining the history to mention the INDIAN-NESS in the sub-continent and > the ransacking. ROYALNESS COMES THROUGH INHERITANCE BUT NOT WITH > stealings/loot/robbery. > > 1) Our Rulers like Shri late Pandit Nehru,Lal Bahadur Sastry,Indira > Priyadarshini and even Atal Bihari Vajpayee were not like Shri Sardar > Vallabhai Patel to handle the situation(though its in favor of INDIA > except in one instance the 7th fleet of USA stood against further movements). > Every time India never attacked at first instance but to defend the territories > just participated and honoured the WORLD PRESSURE and > concern at the cost of deaths. > > Pakistan is just like any other state in India offered to Zinna > gracefully. Probably it could be a cause of mercy and sparing. If Zinna > does not exists and and his selfish thought(2 nation theory) was proved > wrong and failed in practice, The wrecked kid(Pakistan) should be > treated under stringent discipline. This is what the head of the family > will do anywhere in the world.(Head of the family can be HE/SHE or Country > or Individual when it comes to repair the damage of the belongings). > > 2) If India would have handled the situations like the one we(As a Nation) > did against NIZAM(my last post) once and for all, there should not be > any uproars,murmurs,controversies and damage that is happening now here and > there. > 1) http://www.vepachedu.org/hyderabad.html > 2) http://www.telangana.com/History/razakar.htm > The tactics are very much same that of the NIZAM and RAZAKARS played 60 > year back. Experience always matter. > > 3) In Rural India every body is living the same life as that of the > people living at Jammu and Kashmir. Struggling and juggling with Disputes > over land,Caste related feelings,selfishness not as that much of Urban > Indian life of course. One must know that there are feelings which can be > controllable and uncontrollable, and react accordingly. One must not > supposed to express and then react whatever comes into the mind by whatever > way. Some manners/feelings come by birth and some one must learn with > education and some by moving with society and nature. If any body got > injected the wrong thought that "they are living like dogs or they are > missing something" then those are all need to be trained with special > classes to rectify and feel better way. > > ---dandam dasa gunam bhaveth(sama,dana,bhedh,danda) > > 4) People living in land should know,well-understand and learn to > obey/abide the law of the land first.(Starting from Birth to Until Death). > > If any body studied in schools where they taught Kashmir is a > fight/dispute between India and Pakistan then the idea of forming such > a school and training is -ve (ESREVER) and totally wrong in any > fashion. There need to be change in thought. Individual or Country should > have belief in NATURE at least if they dont have belief in religion,god and > self. Pakistan and their supporters/countries are day dreaming about India > and its abilities. > > *PS: Leave the exceptions in my writings.* > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > ------------------------------ > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest > showson Yahoo! TV. > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Sep 14 17:58:16 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:58:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Garden Tools Message-ID: <46EA7E60.2000901@sarai.net> Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear SAP ( Suddha , Arti & partho ) > > Going by your mails , i feel that you all have an intellect rivaled only by > garden tools. > > God Bless the SAP > > Pawan Durani Dear Pawan, Once again you have hit the nail on the head. You are so, so, accurate. There are three kinds of garden tools that our intellects would be happy to approximate. 1. Spraying Cans used to spray pesticide on unwanted pests and parasites. 2. Shears used to cut down weeds wherever they appear on the garden patch 3. Digging Shovels used to dig up soil so that the garden remains oxyegnated and to turn manure so that the fertility of the soil is maintained You will no doubt have noticed that a lot of people on the Reader List are doing all three whenever you make an appearance. This commons is a garden, and well, gardeners (maalis) are really essential for the health of any garden. regards, toilet cleaner, fossil hunter, and now, gardener From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 18:06:04 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 05:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <46EA6C66.7010702@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: <390108.58521.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Dasgupta, Its ok. You are welcome Sir. Regards, Dhatri. Rana Dasgupta wrote: Rana Dasgupta wrote: > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the enormous > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to say > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. People > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from > violent attacks. I take it all back. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. From ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Fri Sep 14 19:13:57 2007 From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Britta Ohm) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:43:57 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: New Funding Program at the Wenner-Gren Foundation for Anthropological Research Message-ID: Best - Britta Anfang der weitergeleiteten E-Mail: > Von: "Institutional Development" > Datum: 13. September 2007 20:19:31 MESZ > Betreff: New Funding Program at the Wenner-Gren Foundation for > Anthropological Research > > > Dear Colleague, > > We are sending you information about a new funding program at the > Wenner-Gren Foundation for Anthropological Research-- We would > appreciate it if you could please circulate this information to > individuals and organizations who could benefit from this knowledge, > > Thank you for your cooperation > > Wenner-Gren Foundation > > __________ > > NEW INSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT GRANT AT THE WENNER-GREN FOUNDATION FOR > ANTHROPOLOGICAL RESEARCH > >  The Wenner-Gren Foundation is pleased to launch a new funding > program, the Institutional Development Grant (IDG). The IDG is > intended to strengthen (or to support the development of) > anthropological doctoral programs in countries where the discipline is > underrepresented. The grant provides $25,000 per year, is renewable > for a maximum of five years (total support of $125,000), and may be > used for any purpose to achieve the academic development goals of the > applicant department. One new award will be made each year and > priority will be given to those applicant departments that have > partnership arrangements with other anthropological institutions that > can help them achieve their development goals. > > The Institutional Development Grant has a two-stage application > process; a preliminary inquiry followed by a full application. The > deadline for the mandatory preliminary inquiry is February 1, 2008. If > the preliminary inquiry is successful, the deadline for submission of > the full application is April 1, 2008. The first award will be made in > September 2008. > > For further information please see the Foundation's website at: > www.wennergren.org/programs ; or send an email to > developmentgrant at wennergren.org ; or contact the Foundation at > Wenner-Gren Foundation for Anthropological Research, 470 Park Avenue > South, 8th Floor, New York, NY 10016, USA, Tel 1 212 683 5000 > > > > ___________________ Britta Ohm Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49/30/69507155 From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 19:17:16 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:17:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] STOP THE SHUDDHA-FECAL-TION Message-ID: <31d5ea920709140647m6941339atd0c5d7a1291068df@mail.gmail.com> No, I don't think we need people to purge and purify this space. Jane do yaar, ashuddh hee theek hai. The self-appointed shit sweepers should absolutely stop. You guys are spreading more shit around than wiping it off. Now every post smells of turd. Smell this one and see - its all over. I would imagine that the readers of this list are intelligent enough and mature enough to decide which arguments to purchase and which to ignore. Leave the shit alone. Let it decompose by itself, its biodegradable after all. Ignore it please. If you do have a better argument or a different viewpoint or more information on an issue, please do share it with us: the readers. There is no point aiming it at people whose intelligence and logic you doubt. Stop lacing your counter arguments with "I do not wish to ridicule you, but…" "don't test my patience, [or else]…" when you do put forward your point It seems to me that the volunteer toilet cleaners are being opportunistic in using the counter arguments to the crappy comments only to brandish their own superior wit and wisdom. A self-congratulatory club is so boring, an utter waste (pun intended). You guys have created the ARKP hydra, fed it and buffered it and now it looms like a demon, foaming and fuming, over all of us. That we now have people like, first, Vedavanti and now some Kashmiri pandits, with very opposed viewpoints on this list, could have been such a good opportunity to converse with them. These people represent the viewpoint of certain masses and are not just standalone lunatics. Their different viewpoint also has a reason for existing. Can we address that? If only we were not so insensitive and didn't act prudishly, we could have engaged them more positively. Expecting carefully constructed arguments from them is futile. There was no need to be baited by them every time they acted provocatively. One could have ignored them – simple solution. But if you must take on the tough task of correcting their prejudice then understand first what you are trying to take on. It could be a very useful exercise. I personally do not have the where withal to do so, but if your toilet cleaners must engage them, then have bottomless patience, show some love, some Gandhigiri, handle them gently and then perhaps they would respond. Some of them are quite loveable and very human. They have idealism and a passion and this can all be channelised to good use. I appeal to you "intellectuals" because I hope to cut some ice here. I also appeal to the other party to show some restraint. Stop pulling out incidents from 1990 (Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's misfortune) just to rile up people. And please, all of you, get some Sun - spending so much time in front of the screen is very unhealthy. Sorry for sounding like a moral science school teacher, but I just want my reader-list back the way it was. If someone does not take the initiative now, no amount of fumigation and sanitation will work. Its getting very stuffy in here, so as they say in Bombay: Havaa aane de yaar! (Let me some get air, my friend). Keep it real, Vishal Blurker p.s. And if you absolutely must regale in toilet cleaning, then please take on 'we wi' (Dhatri), that should keep you occupied for ever and ever. From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 19:17:16 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:17:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] STOP THE SHUDDHA-FECAL-TION Message-ID: <31d5ea920709140647m6941339atd0c5d7a1291068df@mail.gmail.com> No, I don't think we need people to purge and purify this space. Jane do yaar, ashuddh hee theek hai. The self-appointed shit sweepers should absolutely stop. You guys are spreading more shit around than wiping it off. Now every post smells of turd. Smell this one and see - its all over. I would imagine that the readers of this list are intelligent enough and mature enough to decide which arguments to purchase and which to ignore. Leave the shit alone. Let it decompose by itself, its biodegradable after all. Ignore it please. If you do have a better argument or a different viewpoint or more information on an issue, please do share it with us: the readers. There is no point aiming it at people whose intelligence and logic you doubt. Stop lacing your counter arguments with "I do not wish to ridicule you, but…" "don't test my patience, [or else]…" when you do put forward your point It seems to me that the volunteer toilet cleaners are being opportunistic in using the counter arguments to the crappy comments only to brandish their own superior wit and wisdom. A self-congratulatory club is so boring, an utter waste (pun intended). You guys have created the ARKP hydra, fed it and buffered it and now it looms like a demon, foaming and fuming, over all of us. That we now have people like, first, Vedavanti and now some Kashmiri pandits, with very opposed viewpoints on this list, could have been such a good opportunity to converse with them. These people represent the viewpoint of certain masses and are not just standalone lunatics. Their different viewpoint also has a reason for existing. Can we address that? If only we were not so insensitive and didn't act prudishly, we could have engaged them more positively. Expecting carefully constructed arguments from them is futile. There was no need to be baited by them every time they acted provocatively. One could have ignored them – simple solution. But if you must take on the tough task of correcting their prejudice then understand first what you are trying to take on. It could be a very useful exercise. I personally do not have the where withal to do so, but if your toilet cleaners must engage them, then have bottomless patience, show some love, some Gandhigiri, handle them gently and then perhaps they would respond. Some of them are quite loveable and very human. They have idealism and a passion and this can all be channelised to good use. I appeal to you "intellectuals" because I hope to cut some ice here. I also appeal to the other party to show some restraint. Stop pulling out incidents from 1990 (Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's misfortune) just to rile up people. And please, all of you, get some Sun - spending so much time in front of the screen is very unhealthy. Sorry for sounding like a moral science school teacher, but I just want my reader-list back the way it was. If someone does not take the initiative now, no amount of fumigation and sanitation will work. Its getting very stuffy in here, so as they say in Bombay: Havaa aane de yaar! (Let me some get air, my friend). Keep it real, Vishal Blurker p.s. And if you absolutely must regale in toilet cleaning, then please take on 'we wi' (Dhatri), that should keep you occupied for ever and ever. From ixa10 at psu.edu Fri Sep 14 19:42:52 2007 From: ixa10 at psu.edu (Irina Aristarkhova) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:12:52 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Cyberfeminist Round-Table, comments welcome Message-ID: > >Rebooting Cyberfeminism > >A Roundtable for "re:place: Histories of Media Art, Science and >Technology conference, Berlin, November 18, 2007. >Facilitated by Irina Aristarkhova (ixa10 at psu.edu) and Faith Wilding >(faithwilding at cs.com) >Please send your ideas / responses directly to one of the above >e-mail addresses. > >10am 18 November, Conference Hall 2, House of World Cultures, Berlin. > >Rebooting Cyberfeminism, a Roundtable discussion, will address ways >of evaluating the histories and impact of cyberfeminism on current >and future contributions to media art, technology practices, and >activism in electronic (and Real) spaces. We invite virtual and/or >physical participation and comments from all those interested. We >are initiating an open discussion on a variety of topics including >"Histories of Cyberfeminism" (understood as alternative to >culturally homogenous Western histories) and "Genealogy of Art >Groups" (focusing on tactical media and activist engagements with >technology). > >To read more on the issues we are trying to raise at our >round-table, please go to http://www.refugia.net/irina/ > >To learn more about the conference "re:place: Histories of Media >Art, Science and Technology), go to: >http://www.mediaarthistories.org > > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 19:48:54 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Hi In-Reply-To: <32144e990709140512p38436cf9gc35118ad5ce6ba18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <709904.11033.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Partha, Though I tried to answer most of the concerns raised by different readers, this is the one for you. Any body can explain the things to the people who are having either full of nill understanding and knowledge. Irrespective of your joining in the middle of the postings over the concerns of India and the solutions, I understood that you by-hearted the things since your schooling to your marriage and after the life. I may not spoon-feed you, but the postings are to create a kind awareness among people like you. What exactly you mean my logic,argument,fact? 1) PROPORTIONAL LOGIC 2) PREDICATE LOGIC 3) "CIGOL ESREVNOC" ----- On national anthem link "utkala,vanga,vidhya". For Identifying places like these the link is all meant for. ---- On small kingdoms Before Alexander, Emperors and dynasties are there in India to rule it as a nation. --- On Indian Tourism Those places are there very much and are sacred to Indians which are in occupation now --- On laws of land What exactly I mean is a) CRPC should be applicable to all Indians. b) Suppose you got a fortune in UK, under the citizenship either by birth or by contamination will you handover it to the government there or flew to India? I don't understand but in INDIA, the government will collect if people fail to handover. c) See its like that, If you get an Indian national monument at some other country and If you return back, as a citizen its your responsibility to handover it to the government. ---On Jammu and Kashmir Its not like some in the hands of India and some in the hands of Pakistan, but a piece of Indian land was given to Zinna to satisfy his ego gracefully based on the 2 nation theory. Except that Entire territory belong to India solely and so as the people are called Indians. Pakistan should withdrew their nationals or whatever living in India illegally and should live happily whatever the land it was given. So as China. Like that many more............................................................... I produced enough facts with genuine proofs by quoting various facts in the form columns from various columnists,history,people, and debates . For any missing things I am glad to know from you what exactly to made available. As deputed to condemn and reply at a jet speed, you confused to read properly and understand the things due to either wearing of goggles or lack of spectacles. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 20:04:14 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] STOP THE SHUDDHA-FECAL-TION In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709140647m6941339atd0c5d7a1291068df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <182314.11070.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Vishal, The P.S will it be a praise or a bashing to me???? Regards, Dhatri. Vishal Rawlley wrote: No, I don't think we need people to purge and purify this space. Jane do yaar, ashuddh hee theek hai. The self-appointed shit sweepers should absolutely stop. You guys are spreading more shit around than wiping it off. Now every post smells of turd. Smell this one and see - its all over. I would imagine that the readers of this list are intelligent enough and mature enough to decide which arguments to purchase and which to ignore. Leave the shit alone. Let it decompose by itself, its biodegradable after all. Ignore it please. If you do have a better argument or a different viewpoint or more information on an issue, please do share it with us: the readers. There is no point aiming it at people whose intelligence and logic you doubt. Stop lacing your counter arguments with "I do not wish to ridicule you, but…" "don't test my patience, [or else]…" when you do put forward your point It seems to me that the volunteer toilet cleaners are being opportunistic in using the counter arguments to the crappy comments only to brandish their own superior wit and wisdom. A self-congratulatory club is so boring, an utter waste (pun intended). You guys have created the ARKP hydra, fed it and buffered it and now it looms like a demon, foaming and fuming, over all of us. That we now have people like, first, Vedavanti and now some Kashmiri pandits, with very opposed viewpoints on this list, could have been such a good opportunity to converse with them. These people represent the viewpoint of certain masses and are not just standalone lunatics. Their different viewpoint also has a reason for existing. Can we address that? If only we were not so insensitive and didn't act prudishly, we could have engaged them more positively. Expecting carefully constructed arguments from them is futile. There was no need to be baited by them every time they acted provocatively. One could have ignored them – simple solution. But if you must take on the tough task of correcting their prejudice then understand first what you are trying to take on. It could be a very useful exercise. I personally do not have the where withal to do so, but if your toilet cleaners must engage them, then have bottomless patience, show some love, some Gandhigiri, handle them gently and then perhaps they would respond. Some of them are quite loveable and very human. They have idealism and a passion and this can all be channelised to good use. I appeal to you "intellectuals" because I hope to cut some ice here. I also appeal to the other party to show some restraint. Stop pulling out incidents from 1990 (Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's misfortune) just to rile up people. And please, all of you, get some Sun - spending so much time in front of the screen is very unhealthy. Sorry for sounding like a moral science school teacher, but I just want my reader-list back the way it was. If someone does not take the initiative now, no amount of fumigation and sanitation will work. Its getting very stuffy in here, so as they say in Bombay: Havaa aane de yaar! (Let me some get air, my friend). Keep it real, Vishal Blurker p.s. And if you absolutely must regale in toilet cleaning, then please take on 'we wi' (Dhatri), that should keep you occupied for ever and ever. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Sep 14 20:09:10 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:09:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] STOP THE SHUDDHA-FECAL-TION In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709140647m6941339atd0c5d7a1291068df@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709140647m6941339atd0c5d7a1291068df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EA9D0E.2040305@sarai.net> Dear Vishal, Excellent post, and well said, in everything you have said. And I agree with you, its time to put an end to this, and time for all of us to get some sun, or moonlight into our lives. I want to do that most of all. But, I think the patience and the loving reason tack was tried, and tried for a long time, and everything that everyone said (and I mean everyone) was taken very seriously. The archive of this list is proof of that. Actually, the scatological references originate with the ARKP hydra, some of us just chose to take it on, having failed to cut ice, as you say, with the clear light of reason and enlightened benevolent patient and trying to be nice. We tried to have some fun, not as in a co ordinated conspiracy, but in a spontaneous move that originated at several points, instead of gettin embroiled in the schoolyard 'tu-tu, main-main' and competitive victimhood game that they (ARKP) are probably more familiar with. Repeatedly, also, attempts have been made and are still being made to try and introduce other ideas, images, concepts on this list in the last few days. But of course, ARKP bounces back with their one point agenda of unmasking some of us as a proxy terror cell. I am as concerned as you are about the health of the list, and about the need for some cool (not hot) 'hava'.But I take anyone implying that I, or any one of my friends, is an apologist for terrorism very, very seriously. These are very dark times, and I have known people face death sentences for lesser things than such flimsy charges. I do not want myself, you, or anyone else on this list to have to deal with the nightmarish mess of that because some motivated individuals repeated lies about us that went unchallenged. So that, individuals could go on saying, we proved and showed and demonstrated on the Reader List that X, Y and Z were terrorists, or terrorist sympathizers. The individuals we all know did the following - 1. accused people of doing things that they had not done (cancel screenings) 2. tried to prejudice our understanding, through out of context readings, of a publicly available court record in a serious terrorism trial. 3. tried to tar people on this list with the very serious charge of aiding terrorism and being aided by terrorists. 4. falsified facts and selectively quoted historical sources in order to buttress a communal argument 5. initiated the business of sexist innuendo, ad hominem remarks and casteist insinuations(how else is one to interpret a post that calls people SHITS in a country where shit cleaning is a caste issue) and left no stone unturned in engaging in the wholesale and unwarranted imputaton of motives. All this occurred after every attempt had been made (for the past several weeks) to engage with them with seriousness, analytical rigour and some amount of actual engagement with historical material. These individuals have grossly abused the freedom of expression that is granted to everyone that participates on this list, and I am not surprised that in return they have had to deal with some of the vitriol that even very patient people can generate when provoked beyond reason. The option to ban them from the list was always available, and there was enough reason to do so, because they crossed the line that divides radical difference of opinion from false accusations and moved straight into the territory where they began spreading lies and rumour. But banning them is an is an option that the traditions and conventions of this list prevents us from exercising. And I do not think that anyone on this list barring them wishes to see them decked out with the glamour of martyred 'censorship'. Hence, we have to put up with the periodic spectacle of sanitation. The consequences of free speech are a degree of pain for everyone, most of all for those who are trying to keep the space free. Believe me, nothing exasperates me, or I think anyone who has been engaged in this more than having to deal yet again with some trashy argument. But because we are a free space, we have to do it. The consequneces of 'ignoring' this mounting pile of garbage are that the list itself will get polluted, and undermined. They are not new to this game. I have seen them doing this on other lists and forums where they have had equally destructive agendas. What is new for them is the amount of resistance coming from several members of the list. I think they underestimate the lists capacity to exhaust them. I have said enough on these matters of sanitation and plumbing, exercised enough of my freedom of speech, and now I can and will choose to exercise my freedom of silence, but I hope, others, you included, will step into breach the gap, so that we do not drown in fecal matter. I remain hopeful that the list will do a perfectly good cleaning job Shuddha Vishal Rawlley wrote: > No, I don't think we need people to purge and purify this space. Jane do > yaar, ashuddh hee theek hai. The self-appointed shit sweepers should > absolutely stop. You guys are spreading more shit around than wiping it off. > Now every post smells of turd. Smell this one and see - its all over. > > > > I would imagine that the readers of this list are intelligent enough and > mature enough to decide which arguments to purchase and which to ignore. > Leave the shit alone. Let it decompose by itself, its biodegradable after > all. Ignore it please. If you do have a better argument or a different > viewpoint or more information on an issue, please do share it with us: the > readers. There is no point aiming it at people whose intelligence and logic > you doubt. Stop lacing your counter arguments with "I do not wish to > ridicule you, but…" "don't test my patience, [or else]…" when you do put > forward your point > > > > It seems to me that the volunteer toilet cleaners are being opportunistic in > using the counter arguments to the crappy comments only to brandish their > own superior wit and wisdom. A self-congratulatory club is so boring, an > utter waste (pun intended). You guys have created the ARKP hydra, fed it and > buffered it and now it looms like a demon, foaming and fuming, over all of > us. > > > > That we now have people like, first, Vedavanti and now some Kashmiri > pandits, with very opposed viewpoints on this list, could have been such a > good opportunity to converse with them. These people represent the viewpoint > of certain masses and are not just standalone lunatics. Their different > viewpoint also has a reason for existing. Can we address that? If only we > were not so insensitive and didn't act prudishly, we could have engaged them > more positively. Expecting carefully constructed arguments from them is > futile. There was no need to be baited by them every time they acted > provocatively. One could have ignored them – simple solution. But if you > must take on the tough task of correcting their prejudice then understand > first what you are trying to take on. It could be a very useful exercise. I > personally do not have the where withal to do so, but if your toilet > cleaners must engage them, then have bottomless patience, show some love, > some Gandhigiri, handle them gently and then perhaps they would respond. > Some of them are quite loveable and very human. They have idealism and a > passion and this can all be channelised to good use. > > > > I appeal to you "intellectuals" because I hope to cut some ice here. I also > appeal to the other party to show some restraint. Stop pulling out incidents > from 1990 (Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's misfortune) just to rile up people. > And please, all of you, get some Sun - spending so much time in front of the > screen is very unhealthy. > > > > Sorry for sounding like a moral science school teacher, but I just want my > reader-list back the way it was. If someone does not take the initiative > now, no amount of fumigation and sanitation will work. Its getting very > stuffy in here, so as they say in Bombay: Havaa aane de yaar! (Let me some > get air, my friend). > > > > Keep it real, > > Vishal Blurker > > > > p.s. And if you absolutely must regale in toilet cleaning, then please take > on 'we wi' (Dhatri), that should keep you occupied for ever and ever. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 20:15:21 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Re: Regarding India Map #2 Message-ID: <263987.15770.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Note: forwarded message attached. --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. From fmadre at free.fr Fri Sep 14 20:30:38 2007 From: fmadre at free.fr (fmadre at free.fr) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:00:38 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Hi In-Reply-To: <709904.11033.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <709904.11033.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070914170038.jqam2lbfso4k0k88@imp4.free.fr> ----- Message de dhatr1i at yahoo.com --------- > Dear Partha, [...] > > --------------------------------- > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? I like this signature. f. From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 20:39:23 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:39:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Garden Tools In-Reply-To: <46EA7E60.2000901@sarai.net> References: <46EA7E60.2000901@sarai.net> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709140809k6bcfdf30we489e74da558b131@mail.gmail.com> FECAL MATTERS Fecal matters are of many kinds As they come from various behinds Human turd is most impure A buffalo's is good for manure Toh akal badi ki bhaains?! Drop it yaar (ignore the pun). Someone has to stop. Please. Best, Vishal On 9/14/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear SAP ( Suddha , Arti & partho ) > > > > Going by your mails , i feel that you all have an intellect rivaled > only by > > garden tools. > > > > God Bless the SAP > > > > Pawan Durani > > Dear Pawan, > > Once again you have hit the nail on the head. You are so, so, accurate. > > There are three kinds of garden tools that our intellects would be happy > to approximate. > > 1. Spraying Cans used to spray pesticide on unwanted pests and parasites. > 2. Shears used to cut down weeds wherever they appear on the garden patch > 3. Digging Shovels used to dig up soil so that the garden remains > oxyegnated and to turn manure so that the fertility of the soil is > maintained > > You will no doubt have noticed that a lot of people on the Reader List > are doing all three whenever you make an appearance. > > This commons is a garden, and well, gardeners (maalis) are really > essential for the health of any garden. > > regards, > > toilet cleaner, fossil hunter, and now, gardener > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 20:39:23 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:39:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Garden Tools In-Reply-To: <46EA7E60.2000901@sarai.net> References: <46EA7E60.2000901@sarai.net> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709140809k6bcfdf30we489e74da558b131@mail.gmail.com> FECAL MATTERS Fecal matters are of many kinds As they come from various behinds Human turd is most impure A buffalo's is good for manure Toh akal badi ki bhaains?! Drop it yaar (ignore the pun). Someone has to stop. Please. Best, Vishal On 9/14/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear SAP ( Suddha , Arti & partho ) > > > > Going by your mails , i feel that you all have an intellect rivaled > only by > > garden tools. > > > > God Bless the SAP > > > > Pawan Durani > > Dear Pawan, > > Once again you have hit the nail on the head. You are so, so, accurate. > > There are three kinds of garden tools that our intellects would be happy > to approximate. > > 1. Spraying Cans used to spray pesticide on unwanted pests and parasites. > 2. Shears used to cut down weeds wherever they appear on the garden patch > 3. Digging Shovels used to dig up soil so that the garden remains > oxyegnated and to turn manure so that the fertility of the soil is > maintained > > You will no doubt have noticed that a lot of people on the Reader List > are doing all three whenever you make an appearance. > > This commons is a garden, and well, gardeners (maalis) are really > essential for the health of any garden. > > regards, > > toilet cleaner, fossil hunter, and now, gardener > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 21:01:10 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Hi In-Reply-To: <20070914170038.jqam2lbfso4k0k88@imp4.free.fr> Message-ID: <528243.42957.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Fmadre, Hey that was addtional action from YAHOO not part of my original signature. HAHA nice observation any way. Regards, Dhatri. fmadre at free.fr wrote: ----- Message de dhatr1i at yahoo.com --------- > Dear Partha, [...] > > --------------------------------- > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? I like this signature. f. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 21:06:54 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:06:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] STOP THE SHUDDHA-FECAL-TION In-Reply-To: <46EA9D0E.2040305@sarai.net> References: <31d5ea920709140647m6941339atd0c5d7a1291068df@mail.gmail.com> <46EA9D0E.2040305@sarai.net> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709140836u28506c34j33c1f8e78816e2db@mail.gmail.com> havaa havaa e havaa khusbu lotaa de kaha khuli, zulf bataa de main us se miloonga ik baar milaa de ting ting ting ti-ni-ni-nining (breeze o breeze return the fragrance....) --- for those not not form the India-sphere - its a pakistani pop song On 9/14/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Vishal, > > Excellent post, and well said, in everything you have said. And I agree > with you, its time to put an end to this, and time for all of us to get > some sun, or moonlight into our lives. I want to do that most of all. > > But, I think the patience and the loving reason tack was tried, and > tried for a long time, and everything that everyone said (and I mean > everyone) was taken very seriously. The archive of this list is proof of > that. Actually, the scatological references originate with the ARKP > hydra, some of us just chose to take it on, having failed to cut ice, as > you say, with the clear light of reason and enlightened benevolent > patient and trying to be nice. We tried to have some fun, not as in a co > ordinated conspiracy, but in a spontaneous move that originated at > several points, instead of gettin embroiled in the schoolyard 'tu-tu, > main-main' and competitive victimhood game that they (ARKP) are probably > more familiar with. Repeatedly, also, attempts have been made and are > still being made to try and introduce other ideas, images, concepts on > this list in the last few days. But of course, ARKP bounces back with > their one point agenda of unmasking some of us as a proxy terror cell. > > I am as concerned as you are about the health of the list, and about the > need for some cool (not hot) 'hava'.But I take anyone implying that I, > or any one of my friends, is an apologist for terrorism very, very > seriously. These are very dark times, and I have known people face death > sentences for lesser things than such flimsy charges. I do not want > myself, you, or anyone else on this list to have to deal with the > nightmarish mess of that because some motivated individuals repeated > lies about us that went unchallenged. So that, individuals could go on > saying, we proved and showed and demonstrated on the Reader List that X, > Y and Z were terrorists, or terrorist sympathizers. > > The individuals we all know did the following - > > 1. accused people of doing things that they had not done (cancel > screenings) > 2. tried to prejudice our understanding, through out of context > readings, of a publicly available court record in a serious terrorism > trial. > 3. tried to tar people on this list with the very serious charge of > aiding terrorism and being aided by terrorists. > 4. falsified facts and selectively quoted historical sources in order to > buttress a communal argument > 5. initiated the business of sexist innuendo, ad hominem remarks and > casteist insinuations(how else is one to interpret a post that calls > people SHITS in a country where shit cleaning is a caste issue) and left > no stone unturned in engaging in the wholesale and unwarranted imputaton > of motives. > > All this occurred after every attempt had been made (for the past > several weeks) to engage with them with seriousness, analytical rigour > and some amount of actual engagement with historical material. > > These individuals have grossly abused the freedom of expression that is > granted to everyone that participates on this list, and I am not > surprised that in return they have had to deal with some of the vitriol > that even very patient people can generate when provoked beyond reason. > > The option to ban them from the list was always available, and there was > enough reason to do so, because they crossed the line that divides > radical difference of opinion from false accusations and moved straight > into the territory where they began spreading lies and rumour. But > banning them is an is an option that the traditions and conventions of > this list prevents us from exercising. And I do not think that anyone on > this list barring them wishes to see them decked out with the glamour of > martyred 'censorship'. > > Hence, we have to put up with the periodic spectacle of sanitation. The > consequences of free speech are a degree of pain for everyone, most of > all for those who are trying to keep the space free. Believe me, nothing > exasperates me, or I think anyone who has been engaged in this more than > having to deal yet again with some trashy argument. But because we are a > free space, we have to do it. The consequneces of 'ignoring' this > mounting pile of garbage are that the list itself will get polluted, and > undermined. > > They are not new to this game. I have seen them doing this on other > lists and forums where they have had equally destructive agendas. What > is new for them is the amount of resistance coming from several members > of the list. I think they underestimate the lists capacity to exhaust > them. > > I have said enough on these matters of sanitation and plumbing, > exercised enough of my freedom of speech, and now I can and will choose > to exercise my freedom of silence, but I hope, others, you included, > will step into breach the gap, so that we do not drown in fecal matter. > > I remain hopeful that the list will do a perfectly good cleaning job > > Shuddha > > > > > Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > > No, I don't think we need people to purge and purify this space. Jane do > > yaar, ashuddh hee theek hai. The self-appointed shit sweepers should > > absolutely stop. You guys are spreading more shit around than wiping it > off. > > Now every post smells of turd. Smell this one and see - its all over. > > > > > > > > I would imagine that the readers of this list are intelligent enough and > > mature enough to decide which arguments to purchase and which to ignore. > > Leave the shit alone. Let it decompose by itself, its biodegradable > after > > all. Ignore it please. If you do have a better argument or a different > > viewpoint or more information on an issue, please do share it with us: > the > > readers. There is no point aiming it at people whose intelligence and > logic > > you doubt. Stop lacing your counter arguments with "I do not wish to > > ridicule you, but…" "don't test my patience, [or else]…" when you do > put > > forward your point > > > > > > > > It seems to me that the volunteer toilet cleaners are being > opportunistic in > > using the counter arguments to the crappy comments only to brandish > their > > own superior wit and wisdom. A self-congratulatory club is so boring, an > > utter waste (pun intended). You guys have created the ARKP hydra, fed it > and > > buffered it and now it looms like a demon, foaming and fuming, over all > of > > us. > > > > > > > > That we now have people like, first, Vedavanti and now some Kashmiri > > pandits, with very opposed viewpoints on this list, could have been such > a > > good opportunity to converse with them. These people represent the > viewpoint > > of certain masses and are not just standalone lunatics. Their different > > viewpoint also has a reason for existing. Can we address that? If only > we > > were not so insensitive and didn't act prudishly, we could have engaged > them > > more positively. Expecting carefully constructed arguments from them is > > futile. There was no need to be baited by them every time they acted > > provocatively. One could have ignored them â€" simple solution. But if > you > > must take on the tough task of correcting their prejudice then > understand > > first what you are trying to take on. It could be a very useful > exercise. I > > personally do not have the where withal to do so, but if your toilet > > cleaners must engage them, then have bottomless patience, show some > love, > > some Gandhigiri, handle them gently and then perhaps they would respond. > > Some of them are quite loveable and very human. They have idealism and a > > passion and this can all be channelised to good use. > > > > > > > > I appeal to you "intellectuals" because I hope to cut some ice here. I > also > > appeal to the other party to show some restraint. Stop pulling out > incidents > > from 1990 (Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's misfortune) just to rile up > people. > > And please, all of you, get some Sun - spending so much time in front of > the > > screen is very unhealthy. > > > > > > > > Sorry for sounding like a moral science school teacher, but I just want > my > > reader-list back the way it was. If someone does not take the initiative > > now, no amount of fumigation and sanitation will work. Its getting very > > stuffy in here, so as they say in Bombay: Havaa aane de yaar! (Let me > some > > get air, my friend). > > > > > > > > Keep it real, > > > > Vishal Blurker > > > > > > > > p.s. And if you absolutely must regale in toilet cleaning, then please > take > > on 'we wi' (Dhatri), that should keep you occupied for ever and ever. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Sep 14 21:11:52 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:11:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Garden Tools In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709140809k6bcfdf30we489e74da558b131@mail.gmail.com> References: <46EA7E60.2000901@sarai.net> <31d5ea920709140809k6bcfdf30we489e74da558b131@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30709140841o4785deaej78939e87e63db73@mail.gmail.com> > Toh akal badi ki bhaains?! Now that is an interesting question. For non-Indians on this list who demand translation, it is a Hindi saying, literally: what's bigger, brains or a buffaloes? Now that's a rhetorical way of calling someone a dodo. Curiously, it used to be a joke in school - "Akal badi ya bhains? Darwaza!" Neither brains nor buffaloes, but a door. That answer makes further nonsense of the nonsense. I recently asked the question on my Facebook. Akal badi ya bhains? Somebody said 'your ass' and somebody said 'bhains ki akal' - a buffalo's brain. Some food for thought, if not bullshit. warmly shivam On 9/14/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > FECAL MATTERS > > Fecal matters are of many kinds > As they come from various behinds > Human turd is most impure > A buffalo's is good for manure > > Toh akal badi ki bhaains?! > > > Drop it yaar (ignore the pun). Someone has to stop. Please. > > Best, > Vishal > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 22:11:20 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:41:20 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] STOP THE SHUDDHA-FECAL-TION In-Reply-To: <46EA9D0E.2040305@sarai.net> References: <31d5ea920709140647m6941339atd0c5d7a1291068df@mail.gmail.com> <46EA9D0E.2040305@sarai.net> Message-ID: <46EAB9B0.10705@googlemail.com> It's been nightmarish these last few weeks. The windows need to be opened. Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Vishal, > > Excellent post, and well said, in everything you have said. And I agree > with you, its time to put an end to this, and time for all of us to get > some sun, or moonlight into our lives. I want to do that most of all. > Vishal Rawlley wrote: >> Its getting very stuffy in here, so as they say in Bombay: Havaa aane de yaar! (Let me some >> get air, my friend). From ixa10 at psu.edu Fri Sep 14 22:32:27 2007 From: ixa10 at psu.edu (Irina Aristarkhova) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:02:27 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] posters from the "End of Putin's Era" exhibition Message-ID: Next year Russians will elect a new president. Sakharov Center in Moscow is having an exhibition from a poster competition on a topic of: "End of Putin's Era". To see the best posters go to: http://grani.ru/Projects/contest/m.126760.html The winners are: 1. http://grani.ru/files/34116.jpg It does not need a word translation. It is made by Dmitri, web-designer from Moscow. For those who do not know this "finger position", it means "you are getting nothing", usually used by children. 2. http://grani.ru/files/35692.gif This one is called the "System Error" and says: "Fatal error: 2000-2008. You need to re-install your system." It is made by Maxim Zakharov from Kaliningrad, a video engineer. Enjoy! From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 22:42:08 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:42:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <407129.21772.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <20070911123612.15090.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> <407129.21772.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709141012i7c9953e6xc01a5050e36a1003@mail.gmail.com> Dhatri-ji said: " --On 0, ... I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members aware that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva pact. Under this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and applicable to India? Let me explain more scientifically. Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to use 0 for general purposes. It depends again." I say: Why no response by any "intellectual" on this question of "0" importance??? But Dhatri saahab, if we patent "0" and charge for its usage, won't people give us a "0" amount in return?? They will say:"scientifically" speaking, we have only zero to offer in return of a zero! These Indians, I tell you, they are smart but they do not know how to profit from their smartness, we shall therefore remain poor only, alas. Hai Rama. Now if we had invented I, II, III, V, X, XX, XXX, L, M etc. as the smart Romans did, then we should most defenitely have patented all those and charged IIIVXXXLM.... amounts for each single use and then we would have been a super power already and Akhand Bharat could have been a reality!!! Now I hope no Romans read this and use this idea against us. Then, for example, each student going to standard IV might have to pay IV Euros to them. That will surely ruin our education system. No? Then only the children in 'chauthi kaksha' (fourth grade) from hindi medium schools would be able to afford education, as they never even used the IV notation! Maybe, that will turn out to be a good thing after all! Hindi is really suffering in this country and so are all the regional languages. What say? Jai Hind!!! -Vishal On 9/12/07, we wi wrote: > > Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, > > Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from Gujarat > . If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, Dhatri == > Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother Earth. If you have > patience to look at these terms just go through the entire link or just fire > a find (Cntl+F) and type these terms over there. > > http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm > > To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - > > I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh parishaths, > Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. India HINDU comes first > and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen of India, Valid Passport holder, > It's my Constitutional right to vote as per my choice and live. Those all > who never completed schooling and aware of India > Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices to > enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. > > Focusing on the topic now, > > What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing converse logic > and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. > >If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in the >same > month as India, so perhaps they might reply by dispatching some >of them > into India if India goes for hot chases, surgical strikes, >masala dosas, > bhel pooris etc. > > > > YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like India). > > Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical > > Induction,on Junaid statement > "Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" > > so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not move out of > their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how > India can execute it later. > > --Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier > > Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata > Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham > TRANSLATION > Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata, and a > rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! > OR > Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O > descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I > descend myself. > So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple understanding is the > 9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more remaining to come. The followers > of Buddhism now misunderstood it. > > --And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to the world > or a bunch of people like you. What to do if people/countries like you are > betraying then bullying is the last sort of option. I don't know how many > of the readers aware of this but happy to quote from the first Para of the > post > > --Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth > http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business > > --On 0, > Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, > understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and joviality > (professor student) and your will in favor/against PATENTING and IPR is > nothing to do with the practicalities. You may say that countries/you can > use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN WAY. No problem you/countries can write > whatever the way they wish to use. > > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members aware > that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva pact. Under > this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and applicable > to India? Let me explain more scientifically. > Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate > on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and > get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO > Pact should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever > COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not > uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to > use 0 for general purposes. It depends again. > > Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear dispatch, > for moving them people need INDIA permission. > > We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and need a > motivated, will powered political system to execute this. This is feasible > 99%. > > Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. > > --On points 1,2,3 > You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and Sadhus Shri > Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). Because they are all > sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You will never compare them with > Aurangazeb. > For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its boarders from > Alexander to British > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka > 3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra > 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana > > For your better understanding > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > -- On points 4,5 > Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your writing are in > genuine, I request you to please > > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne > > -- On points 6,7,8 > Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna daughter is > dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it till her teenage > (before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. |This is the fact and for your > kind information. I pity for Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah sister > who migrated to Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR is > an Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from Pakistan > and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid or like > personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to vacate peaks occupied > and offered. > Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive India is > ready welcome the kid. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > --------------------------------- > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Sep 14 23:35:39 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:35:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709141012i7c9953e6xc01a5050e36a1003@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070911123612.15090.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> <407129.21772.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <31d5ea920709141012i7c9953e6xc01a5050e36a1003@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EACD73.1030004@sarai.net> Dear Vishal-ji, Excellent ! I am glad that you have seen shining light. I have also seen the shining light. Pure breeze of wisdom is now blowing on this list after nightmare of last few days. With vigilant right minded intellectuals like Dhatri-ji in our midst, to protect us with Santan Dharma and intellectual property, we are at last in safe hands. Here at last is an intellectual who is serious about his property. But there is a problem. Which I am adding to the problem already mentioned by you, Vishalji, in the form and shape of Roman Numerals. You must know 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 are also referred to as Arabic Numerals. And this is a real serious problem. Now we must do something about these evil arabic numbers. After you have pointed out the danger posed to us by Roman numerals, I have become very vigilant about arabic numerals also. I smell a Vatican-Jihadist conspiracy to decimate us. Oh, davati-deva, even the decimals are a Roman plot. And if you think of the fact that the space between any two real numbers are taken by infinite fractions then the mind and the bank account of sanatan akhand bharata varsha truly begins to boggle. I have heard it said that these arabic numerals are actually hindu numerals. But since a number is not a vivadit sthal, a disputed structure, we cannot pull down one number and try and build another in its place, as we did with the Shri Ramjanmabhoomi Mandir (Lord Rama Birthplace Temple). And how many numbers shall we pull down, and how many numbers shall we build. Yugas and Kalpas will pass even before we have reached a respectable few billion. This is a problem, other wise we could have proposed an all india Hindu Number Liberation Struggle. What to do. What to do. What to do. Does this mean that the descendents and camp followers of those mlecchas who Dhatriji has accused of ruling roost over Bharat Bhoomi will completely walk out of the patent treasury loaded, and use their ill gotten arabic numeral induced gain to convert yet more hindus, and then what will happen to hinduism, i mean hindooism, with the double barrelled zero in the midle, will it become a big zero? Is that what we mean by Nada Brahma. He Bhagwan. And all this will happen because our traitor left handed intellectual class did not warning us in advance about the danger of patenting zero and the danger of not patenting zero.They are cheating not only in history,geography and mythology but in mathematics also. I think this is known as a zero sum game. At least the Buddhists are able to make some capital out of their cunning philosophical concept of shunyata (or zero-ism) but us Hindus, we do not even have zeroism, we have dualities (dvaita) qualified dualities, and to top it all we have non-duality (advaita) that is actually infinity, and which are all totally useless in a commercial context and from the point of view of national economic growth because every infinity can be made paradoxically more as well as less infinite by the addition of an evil arabic number after it. So what will we do when we are reduced to zero? Infinity will be of no help to us. Not even Infinity Foundation which is doing so much good in Amerika-Dham by flying the flag of Dharma will be of any use. Hai Deva, Hai Rama, Hai Aryabhatta, Hai Hai, Hai Hai. Vishaal ji, do you have any way out of this serious dilemma? I am reduced to nothing. You are vishaal, you are infinite, you are sarve sarva. Tell us, guide us, lead us. Shall we request Pravinji Togadiaji of Vishwa Hindu Parishad to propose a Vishwavyapi (world wide) campaign to ban all Arabic and Roman Numerals. Or should we ask for this campaign to remain confined to national level only. Is this happening because of globalization? And what will happen to our rising power, backed by binary number and computerization if we drop this arabic one, this evil aaleph from the binary duet of one and zero. Why are our patriotic computer scientists not building computers based only on pure santan mathematical concept of unity in infinity. We must do something, anything. I remain Shunya Shuddha Vishal Rawlley wrote: > Dhatri-ji said: > > " --On 0, > ... > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members aware > that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva pact. Under > this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and applicable > to India? Let me explain more scientifically. > Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate on > "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get > Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact > should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, NUCLEAR, > MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever COMPUTERISED > automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not uses minimal > charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to use 0 for > general purposes. It depends again." > > I say: > Why no response by any "intellectual" on this question of "0" importance??? > > But Dhatri saahab, if we patent "0" and charge for its usage, won't people > give us a "0" amount in return?? They will say:"scientifically" speaking, we > have only zero to offer in return of a zero! > > These Indians, I tell you, they are smart but they do not know how to profit > from their smartness, we shall therefore remain poor only, alas. Hai Rama. > > Now if we had invented I, II, III, V, X, XX, XXX, L, M etc. as the smart > Romans did, then we should most defenitely have patented all those and > charged IIIVXXXLM.... amounts for each single use and then we would have > been a super power already and Akhand Bharat could have been a reality!!! > > Now I hope no Romans read this and use this idea against us. Then, for > example, each student going to standard IV might have to pay IV Euros to > them. That will surely ruin our education system. No? Then only the children > in 'chauthi kaksha' (fourth grade) from hindi medium schools would be able > to afford education, as they never even used the IV notation! Maybe, that > will turn out to be a good thing after all! Hindi is really suffering in > this country and so are all the regional languages. What say? > > Jai Hind!!! > > -Vishal > > > > > > > > > > On 9/12/07, we wi wrote: > >>Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, >> >>Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from Gujarat >>. If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, Dhatri == >>Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother Earth. If you have >>patience to look at these terms just go through the entire link or just fire >>a find (Cntl+F) and type these terms over there. >> >>http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm >> >>To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - >> >>I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh parishaths, >>Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. India HINDU comes first >>and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen of India, Valid Passport holder, >>It's my Constitutional right to vote as per my choice and live. Those all >>who never completed schooling and aware of India >>Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices to >>enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. >> >>Focusing on the topic now, >> >>What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing converse logic >>and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. >> >>>If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in the >same >> >>month as India, so perhaps they might reply by dispatching some >of them >>into India if India goes for hot chases, surgical strikes, >masala dosas, >>bhel pooris etc. >> >> >> >>YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like India). >> >>Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical >> >>Induction,on Junaid statement >>"Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" >> >>so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not move out of >>their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how >>India can execute it later. >> >>--Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier >> >>Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata >>Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham >>TRANSLATION >>Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata, and a >>rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! >>OR >>Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O >>descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I >>descend myself. >>So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple understanding is the >>9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more remaining to come. The followers >>of Buddhism now misunderstood it. >> >>--And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to the world >>or a bunch of people like you. What to do if people/countries like you are >>betraying then bullying is the last sort of option. I don't know how many >>of the readers aware of this but happy to quote from the first Para of the >>post >> >>--Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth >>http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business >> >>--On 0, >>Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, >>understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and joviality >>(professor student) and your will in favor/against PATENTING and IPR is >>nothing to do with the practicalities. You may say that countries/you can >>use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN WAY. No problem you/countries can write >>whatever the way they wish to use. >> >> I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members aware >>that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva pact. Under >>this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and applicable >>to India? Let me explain more scientifically. >>Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate >>on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and >>get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO >>Pact should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, >>NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever >>COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not >>uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to >>use 0 for general purposes. It depends again. >> >>Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear dispatch, >>for moving them people need INDIA permission. >> >>We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and need a >>motivated, will powered political system to execute this. This is feasible >>99%. >> >>Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. >> >>--On points 1,2,3 >>You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and Sadhus Shri >>Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). Because they are all >>sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You will never compare them with >>Aurangazeb. >>For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its boarders from >>Alexander to British >>1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha >>2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka >>3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra >>4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana >> >>For your better understanding >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age >>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg >> >> >>-- On points 4,5 >>Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your writing are in >>genuine, I request you to please >> >>1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond >>2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne >> >>-- On points 6,7,8 >>Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna daughter is >>dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it till her teenage >>(before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. |This is the fact and for your >>kind information. I pity for Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah sister >>who migrated to Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR is >>an Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from Pakistan >>and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid or like >>personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to vacate peaks occupied >>and offered. >>Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive India is >>ready welcome the kid. >> >>Regards, >>Dhatri. >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. >>Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. >>_________________________________________ >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>Critiques & Collaborations >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>subscribe in the subject header. >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 01:22:46 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 01:22:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <46EACD73.1030004@sarai.net> References: <20070911123612.15090.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> <407129.21772.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <31d5ea920709141012i7c9953e6xc01a5050e36a1003@mail.gmail.com> <46EACD73.1030004@sarai.net> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709141252i5acb5d1ehd5293915dd549f34@mail.gmail.com> Other things India should patent: 1. Kamasutra: This will make us richer every time someone has sex in any inventive position or with multiple partners of either sex. The missionaries can charge for the only position they thought of. 2. Yoga: This way even if someone breathes in deeply and lets it out slowly it will add to our coffers. If they want to save money let them keep jogging and panting - might be good for those fat Americans. 3. Udan Khatola This flying vehicle was invented much earlier than the Wright bothers pop was ever born. Every airline should pay India for this. Else they can keep flying in hot air balloons. I am sure Dhatriji, whose brain is even sharper than Chacha Chowdhary, can add many more items to this list. Patent Raj Sambhava! -Vishal On 9/14/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Vishal-ji, > > Excellent ! I am glad that you have seen shining light. I have also seen > the shining light. Pure breeze of wisdom is now blowing on this list > after nightmare of last few days. With vigilant right minded > intellectuals like Dhatri-ji in our midst, to protect us with Santan > Dharma and intellectual property, we are at last in safe hands. Here at > last is an intellectual who is serious about his property. > > But there is a problem. Which I am adding to the problem already > mentioned by you, Vishalji, in the form and shape of Roman Numerals. > > You must know 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 are also referred to as Arabic > Numerals. And this is a real serious problem. Now we must do something > about these evil arabic numbers. After you have pointed out the danger > posed to us by Roman numerals, I have become very vigilant about arabic > numerals also. I smell a Vatican-Jihadist conspiracy to decimate us. Oh, > davati-deva, even the decimals are a Roman plot. And if you think of the > fact that the space between any two real numbers are taken by infinite > fractions then the mind and the bank account of sanatan akhand bharata > varsha truly begins to boggle. > > I have heard it said that these arabic numerals are actually hindu > numerals. But since a number is not a vivadit sthal, a disputed > structure, we cannot pull down one number and try and build another in > its place, as we did with the Shri Ramjanmabhoomi Mandir (Lord Rama > Birthplace Temple). And how many numbers shall we pull down, and how > many numbers shall we build. Yugas and Kalpas will pass even before we > have reached a respectable few billion. This is a problem, other wise we > could have proposed an all india Hindu Number Liberation Struggle. What > to do. What to do. What to do. > > Does this mean that the descendents and camp followers of those mlecchas > who Dhatriji has accused of ruling roost over Bharat Bhoomi will > completely walk out of the patent treasury loaded, and use their ill > gotten arabic numeral induced gain to convert yet more hindus, and then > what will happen to hinduism, i mean hindooism, with the double > barrelled zero in the midle, will it become a big zero? Is that what we > mean by Nada Brahma. He Bhagwan. And all this will happen because our > traitor left handed intellectual class did not warning us in advance > about the danger of patenting zero and the danger of not patenting > zero.They are cheating not only in history,geography and mythology but > in mathematics also. I think this is known as a zero sum game. > > At least the Buddhists are able to make some capital out of their > cunning philosophical concept of shunyata (or zero-ism) but us Hindus, > we do not even have zeroism, we have dualities (dvaita) qualified > dualities, and to top it all we have non-duality (advaita) that is > actually infinity, and which are all totally useless in a commercial > context and from the point of view of national economic growth because > every infinity can be made paradoxically more as well as less infinite > by the addition of an evil arabic number after it. So what will we do > when we are reduced to zero? Infinity will be of no help to us. Not even > Infinity Foundation which is doing so much good in Amerika-Dham by > flying the flag of Dharma will be of any use. Hai Deva, Hai Rama, Hai > Aryabhatta, Hai Hai, Hai Hai. > > Vishaal ji, do you have any way out of this serious dilemma? I am > reduced to nothing. You are vishaal, you are infinite, you are sarve > sarva. Tell us, guide us, lead us. Shall we request Pravinji Togadiaji > of Vishwa Hindu Parishad to propose a Vishwavyapi (world wide) campaign > to ban all Arabic and Roman Numerals. Or should we ask for this campaign > to remain confined to national level only. Is this happening because of > globalization? And what will happen to our rising power, backed by > binary number and computerization if we drop this arabic one, this evil > aaleph from the binary duet of one and zero. Why are our patriotic > computer scientists not building computers based only on pure santan > mathematical concept of unity in infinity. We must do something, anything. > > I remain > > Shunya Shuddha > > Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > > Dhatri-ji said: > > > > " --On 0, > > ... > > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members > aware > > that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva > pact. Under > > this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and > applicable > > to India? Let me explain more scientifically. > > Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers > operate on > > "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and > get > > Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO > Pact > > should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > NUCLEAR, > > MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever > COMPUTERISED > > automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not uses > minimal > > charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to use 0 for > > general purposes. It depends again." > > > > I say: > > Why no response by any "intellectual" on this question of "0" > importance??? > > > > But Dhatri saahab, if we patent "0" and charge for its usage, won't > people > > give us a "0" amount in return?? They will say:"scientifically" > speaking, we > > have only zero to offer in return of a zero! > > > > These Indians, I tell you, they are smart but they do not know how to > profit > > from their smartness, we shall therefore remain poor only, alas. Hai > Rama. > > > > Now if we had invented I, II, III, V, X, XX, XXX, L, M etc. as the smart > > Romans did, then we should most defenitely have patented all those and > > charged IIIVXXXLM.... amounts for each single use and then we would have > > been a super power already and Akhand Bharat could have been a > reality!!! > > > > Now I hope no Romans read this and use this idea against us. Then, for > > example, each student going to standard IV might have to pay IV > Euros to > > them. That will surely ruin our education system. No? Then only the > children > > in 'chauthi kaksha' (fourth grade) from hindi medium schools would be > able > > to afford education, as they never even used the IV notation! Maybe, > that > > will turn out to be a good thing after all! Hindi is really suffering in > > this country and so are all the regional languages. What say? > > > > Jai Hind!!! > > > > -Vishal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/12/07, we wi wrote: > > > >>Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, > >> > >>Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from Gujarat > >>. If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, Dhatri == > >>Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother Earth. If you have > >>patience to look at these terms just go through the entire link or just > fire > >>a find (Cntl+F) and type these terms over there. > >> > >>http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm > >> > >>To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - > >> > >>I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh > parishaths, > >>Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. India HINDU comes > first > >>and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen of India, Valid Passport > holder, > >>It's my Constitutional right to vote as per my choice and live. Those > all > >>who never completed schooling and aware of India > >>Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices to > >>enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. > >> > >>Focusing on the topic now, > >> > >>What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing converse logic > >>and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. > >> > >>>If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in the > >same > >> > >>month as India, so perhaps they might reply by dispatching some >of them > >>into India if India goes for hot chases, surgical strikes, >masala > dosas, > >>bhel pooris etc. > >> > >> > >> > >>YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like India). > >> > >>Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical > >> > >>Induction,on Junaid statement > >>"Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" > >> > >>so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not move out > of > >>their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how > >>India can execute it later. > >> > >>--Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier > >> > >>Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata > >>Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham > >>TRANSLATION > >>Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata, and a > >>rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! > >>OR > >>Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O > >>descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that > time I > >>descend myself. > >>So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple understanding is > the > >>9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more remaining to come. The > followers > >>of Buddhism now misunderstood it. > >> > >>--And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to the > world > >>or a bunch of people like you. What to do if people/countries like you > are > >>betraying then bullying is the last sort of option. I don't know how > many > >>of the readers aware of this but happy to quote from the first Para of > the > >>post > >> > >>--Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth > >> > http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business > >> > >>--On 0, > >>Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, > >>understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and joviality > >>(professor student) and your will in favor/against PATENTING and IPR is > >>nothing to do with the practicalities. You may say that countries/you > can > >>use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN WAY. No problem you/countries can > write > >>whatever the way they wish to use. > >> > >> I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members > aware > >>that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva > pact. Under > >>this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and > applicable > >>to India? Let me explain more scientifically. > >>Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate > >>on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim > and > >>get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO > >>Pact should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > >>NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever > >>COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may > not > >>uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries > to > >>use 0 for general purposes. It depends again. > >> > >>Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear > dispatch, > >>for moving them people need INDIA permission. > >> > >>We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and need a > >>motivated, will powered political system to execute this. This is > feasible > >>99%. > >> > >>Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. > >> > >>--On points 1,2,3 > >>You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and Sadhus > Shri > >>Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). Because they are > all > >>sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You will never compare them > with > >>Aurangazeb. > >>For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its boarders from > >>Alexander to British > >>1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha > >>2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka > >>3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra > >>4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana > >> > >>For your better understanding > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age > >>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > >> > >> > >>-- On points 4,5 > >>Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your writing are in > >>genuine, I request you to please > >> > >>1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond > >>2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne > >> > >>-- On points 6,7,8 > >>Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna daughter is > >>dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it till her teenage > >>(before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. |This is the fact and for > your > >>kind information. I pity for Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah > sister > >>who migrated to Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR > is > >>an Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from > Pakistan > >>and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid or like > >>personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to vacate peaks > occupied > >>and offered. > >>Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive India is > >>ready welcome the kid. > >> > >>Regards, > >>Dhatri. > >> > >> > >>--------------------------------- > >>Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. > >>Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > >>_________________________________________ > >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>Critiques & Collaborations > >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>subscribe in the subject header. > >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com Sat Sep 15 04:49:52 2007 From: bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com (Anamika Bhatnagar) Date: 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults Message-ID: <20070914231952.485.qmail@webmail106.rediffmail.com>   Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and counter replies ...true...that freedom of speech must be maintained and preserved but these...pawan and company drag it below the belt...it is so difficult to have a constructive argument with them.. On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : >Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the enormous > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to say > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. People > > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from > > violent attacks. > >I take it all back. >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 05:13:17 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 05:13:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing Message-ID: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> Friends, In 2002 the Typocity project (www.typocity.com) was initiated to document typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of Bombay. Since then, many of the old signs that we documented are slowly vanishing. However, I was most distressed to find that some of this heritage is being destroyed by the municipal corporation itself in the name of protecting and restoring heritage structures. Nothing can be more absurd. Please follow this link to see the pictures of replaced signs and find out more: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ Do excuse the quality of some of the recent pictures as they were taken on the spur with a phone-camera. If anyone has better pictures of the recently replaced Eastern Watch sign please share it with me. I am desperately looking for suggestions and ideas to counter this lack of sensitivity by the municipal corporation. I shall be very grateful for any help. Best, Vishal From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 15 09:07:14 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:07:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] VHP attacks Film Screening in Ahmedabad Message-ID: <46EB536A.40605@sarai.net> Dear All, This report from Ahmedabad came into my mailbox this morning. Notice, that the attack (in an educational institution) was on the screening of a short film on womens rights, it wasn't about anything to do with Kashmir, or any challenges to the glorious idea of the nation. I suppose that the gentlemen attacking this screening too had thoughtful ideas about what women are 'prone to', which they were expressing with some vehemence. Clearly, a pattern is emerging. best Shuddha --------------------------------------------------- VHP attacks a film screening The Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the self appointed moral police, has sunk to new levels of intolerance. On September 13, about 15-20 hooligans charged in the college room of L abd C Mehta Arts College during the screening of 'Bol', a series of short films on women's rights. The screening was part of Nazariya, an activity promoted by Drishti in about 20 colleges of Ahmedabad. As part of this activity students are shown documentaries on various social issues followed by a discussion. Today's screening, that was disrupted, was followed by a discussion with Stalin K, a leading human rights activist and documentary film maker. About 25 students and three lecturers had just finished seeing the film and Stalin was discussing various aspects of patriarchy and gender when suddenly 15-20 hooligans, who clearly did not look like students or faculty of the college, charged into the room and started threatening Stalin and demanded to know what was being shown and discussed. The lecturers present there tried to reason with the hooligans that they were not doing anything against any particular person or group. The hooligans then wanted to see the film to which Stalin said that that would not be possible. He told them that they had no right to come in and distrupt a lecture or demand to see the film. One lecturer pacified the hooligans and took them out of the classroom. Meanwhile, Stalin continued with the discussion with the students.Incidentally, the subject of discussion just before the hooligans barged in was 'fear' and fear inhibits us to struggle or attempt any change in oppressive customs or traditions. About 5 minutes later the hooligans barged in again and came menacingly towards Stalin and demanded the DVD. Stalin refused to give it to them and told them that they could buy a copy from the office if need be. They threatened him with 'dire consequencies' if he did not give them the DVD and started pulling at the DVD and pushing him around. Meanwhile, Gaurang, coordinator of Nazariya, had called the Police Control room. The hooligans then snatched the DVD from Stalin's hands and, as if they had won a war, shouted 'jai shree ram' and charged out of the room and campus. Police reached the college immediately but by that time the hooligans had already left. The police asked Stalin and Gaurang to go to Navrangpura Police Station if they wanted to file an FIR. However, Stalin and Gaurang had to wait for nearly 3 hours before the police finally registered a complain against two of 20 hooligans - Rahul Soni and Bharat. From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 15 09:56:09 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:56:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EB5EE1.1080909@sarai.net> Dear Vishal, Many thanks for your posting on disappearing signage. As an avowed fan of typographic curiosities I have long been an admirer of your efforts to document the typographic diversity of Bombay. I share your concern about the disappearance of signage, because of the ham handed ways in which 'heritage' is interpreted by municipal authorities. Perhaps one thing that could be done is a small travelling exhibition based on your work in colleges, and other arts institutions in Bombay. And with your documentation, it should not be impossible to convince some of the Bombay papers, say DNA or Mid Day, or even Time Out Mumbai to publish some articles on the subject. Then maybe, the 'heritage' lobby itself may be persuaded to step in and realize that the typographic history of Bombay is as much a part of 'heritage' as anything else. I am sure that there are some people from DNA and Mid Day on this list. Perhaps they could come out and take this forward. I thought I would post in reply to your post because typography is somthing that I feel really strongly about, I hope that other people come up with other suggestions, best Shuddha > Friends, > > In 2002 the Typocity project (www.typocity.com) was initiated to document > typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of Bombay. Since then, many of > the old signs that we documented are slowly vanishing. However, I was most > distressed to find that some of this heritage is being destroyed by the > municipal corporation itself in the name of protecting and > restoring heritage structures. Nothing can be more absurd. > > Please follow this link to see the pictures of replaced signs and find out > more: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ Do excuse the quality of some of > the recent pictures as they were taken on the spur with a phone-camera. If > anyone has better pictures of the recently replaced Eastern Watch sign > please share it with me. > > I am desperately looking for suggestions and ideas to counter this lack of > sensitivity by the municipal corporation. I shall be very grateful for any > help. > > > Best, > Vishal > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 10:12:01 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:12:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <20070914231952.485.qmail@webmail106.rediffmail.com> References: <20070914231952.485.qmail@webmail106.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709142142n52243b52o985c2ba9a568af15@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anamika , That is what I was trying to provoke the likes of Suddha , Partha and Zainab to think into. When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the liberty to portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi . And when I express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought to justice , they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. If my expression of resentment for a man who has made me homeless is not acceptable in freedom of speech , I wonder what else is ? I would continue to drag the issue below or above the belt as long as the terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested a button is needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That is a gift technology has given to us. But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list writing to me offline and appreciating my concern. Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down the line your child may be writing the same stuff which I write now. Pawan On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: > > > Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and counter replies > ...true...that > freedom of speech must be maintained and preserved but these...pawan and > company drag > it below the belt...it is so difficult to have a constructive argument > with them.. > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : > >Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the enormous > > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to say > > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. People > > > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from > > > violent attacks. > > > >I take it all back. > >_________________________________________ > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >Critiques & Collaborations > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 10:13:47 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:13:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709141252i5acb5d1ehd5293915dd549f34@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070911123612.15090.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> <407129.21772.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <31d5ea920709141012i7c9953e6xc01a5050e36a1003@mail.gmail.com> <46EACD73.1030004@sarai.net> <31d5ea920709141252i5acb5d1ehd5293915dd549f34@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709142143g4d53ff07s3b86f382c1a18bbe@mail.gmail.com> Saddha is a self confessed expert on Indian History , Communism , Kashmir , Rajtarangini , numerology and list goes on. On 9/15/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > Other things India should patent: > > 1. Kamasutra: > This will make us richer every time someone has sex in any inventive > position or with multiple partners of either sex. The missionaries can > charge for the only position they thought of. > > 2. Yoga: > This way even if someone breathes in deeply and lets it out slowly it will > add to our coffers. If they want to save money let them keep jogging and > panting - might be good for those fat Americans. > > 3. Udan Khatola > This flying vehicle was invented much earlier than the Wright > bothers pop was ever born. Every airline should pay India for this. Else > they can keep flying in hot air balloons. > > I am sure Dhatriji, whose brain is even sharper than Chacha Chowdhary, can > add many more items to this list. > > Patent Raj Sambhava! > > -Vishal > > > On 9/14/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear Vishal-ji, > > > > Excellent ! I am glad that you have seen shining light. I have also seen > > the shining light. Pure breeze of wisdom is now blowing on this list > > after nightmare of last few days. With vigilant right minded > > intellectuals like Dhatri-ji in our midst, to protect us with Santan > > Dharma and intellectual property, we are at last in safe hands. Here at > > last is an intellectual who is serious about his property. > > > > But there is a problem. Which I am adding to the problem already > > mentioned by you, Vishalji, in the form and shape of Roman Numerals. > > > > You must know 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 are also referred to as Arabic > > Numerals. And this is a real serious problem. Now we must do something > > about these evil arabic numbers. After you have pointed out the danger > > posed to us by Roman numerals, I have become very vigilant about arabic > > numerals also. I smell a Vatican-Jihadist conspiracy to decimate us. Oh, > > davati-deva, even the decimals are a Roman plot. And if you think of the > > fact that the space between any two real numbers are taken by infinite > > fractions then the mind and the bank account of sanatan akhand bharata > > varsha truly begins to boggle. > > > > I have heard it said that these arabic numerals are actually hindu > > numerals. But since a number is not a vivadit sthal, a disputed > > structure, we cannot pull down one number and try and build another in > > its place, as we did with the Shri Ramjanmabhoomi Mandir (Lord Rama > > Birthplace Temple). And how many numbers shall we pull down, and how > > many numbers shall we build. Yugas and Kalpas will pass even before we > > have reached a respectable few billion. This is a problem, other wise we > > could have proposed an all india Hindu Number Liberation Struggle. What > > to do. What to do. What to do. > > > > Does this mean that the descendents and camp followers of those mlecchas > > who Dhatriji has accused of ruling roost over Bharat Bhoomi will > > completely walk out of the patent treasury loaded, and use their ill > > gotten arabic numeral induced gain to convert yet more hindus, and then > > what will happen to hinduism, i mean hindooism, with the double > > barrelled zero in the midle, will it become a big zero? Is that what we > > mean by Nada Brahma. He Bhagwan. And all this will happen because our > > traitor left handed intellectual class did not warning us in advance > > about the danger of patenting zero and the danger of not patenting > > zero.They are cheating not only in history,geography and mythology but > > in mathematics also. I think this is known as a zero sum game. > > > > At least the Buddhists are able to make some capital out of their > > cunning philosophical concept of shunyata (or zero-ism) but us Hindus, > > we do not even have zeroism, we have dualities (dvaita) qualified > > dualities, and to top it all we have non-duality (advaita) that is > > actually infinity, and which are all totally useless in a commercial > > context and from the point of view of national economic growth because > > every infinity can be made paradoxically more as well as less infinite > > by the addition of an evil arabic number after it. So what will we do > > when we are reduced to zero? Infinity will be of no help to us. Not even > > Infinity Foundation which is doing so much good in Amerika-Dham by > > flying the flag of Dharma will be of any use. Hai Deva, Hai Rama, Hai > > Aryabhatta, Hai Hai, Hai Hai. > > > > Vishaal ji, do you have any way out of this serious dilemma? I am > > reduced to nothing. You are vishaal, you are infinite, you are sarve > > sarva. Tell us, guide us, lead us. Shall we request Pravinji Togadiaji > > of Vishwa Hindu Parishad to propose a Vishwavyapi (world wide) campaign > > to ban all Arabic and Roman Numerals. Or should we ask for this campaign > > to remain confined to national level only. Is this happening because of > > globalization? And what will happen to our rising power, backed by > > binary number and computerization if we drop this arabic one, this evil > > aaleph from the binary duet of one and zero. Why are our patriotic > > computer scientists not building computers based only on pure santan > > mathematical concept of unity in infinity. We must do something, > anything. > > > > I remain > > > > Shunya Shuddha > > > > Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > > > > Dhatri-ji said: > > > > > > " --On 0, > > > ... > > > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members > > aware > > > that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva > > pact. Under > > > this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and > > applicable > > > to India? Let me explain more scientifically. > > > Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers > > operate on > > > "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim > and > > get > > > Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO > > Pact > > > should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > > NUCLEAR, > > > MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever > > COMPUTERISED > > > automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not uses > > minimal > > > charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to use 0 > for > > > general purposes. It depends again." > > > > > > I say: > > > Why no response by any "intellectual" on this question of "0" > > importance??? > > > > > > But Dhatri saahab, if we patent "0" and charge for its usage, won't > > people > > > give us a "0" amount in return?? They will say:"scientifically" > > speaking, we > > > have only zero to offer in return of a zero! > > > > > > These Indians, I tell you, they are smart but they do not know how to > > profit > > > from their smartness, we shall therefore remain poor only, alas. Hai > > Rama. > > > > > > Now if we had invented I, II, III, V, X, XX, XXX, L, M etc. as the > smart > > > Romans did, then we should most defenitely have patented all those and > > > charged IIIVXXXLM.... amounts for each single use and then we would > have > > > been a super power already and Akhand Bharat could have been a > > reality!!! > > > > > > Now I hope no Romans read this and use this idea against us. Then, for > > > example, each student going to standard IV might have to pay IV > > Euros to > > > them. That will surely ruin our education system. No? Then only the > > children > > > in 'chauthi kaksha' (fourth grade) from hindi medium schools would be > > able > > > to afford education, as they never even used the IV notation! Maybe, > > that > > > will turn out to be a good thing after all! Hindi is really suffering > in > > > this country and so are all the regional languages. What say? > > > > > > Jai Hind!!! > > > > > > -Vishal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/12/07, we wi wrote: > > > > > >>Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, > > >> > > >>Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from > Gujarat > > >>. If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, Dhatri == > > >>Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother Earth. If you have > > >>patience to look at these terms just go through the entire link or > just > > fire > > >>a find (Cntl+F) and type these terms over there. > > >> > > >>http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm > > >> > > >>To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - > > >> > > >>I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh > > parishaths, > > >>Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. India HINDU comes > > first > > >>and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen of India, Valid Passport > > holder, > > >>It's my Constitutional right to vote as per my choice and live. Those > > all > > >>who never completed schooling and aware of India > > >>Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices to > > >>enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. > > >> > > >>Focusing on the topic now, > > >> > > >>What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing converse > logic > > >>and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. > > >> > > >>>If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in the > > >same > > >> > > >>month as India, so perhaps they might reply by dispatching some >of > them > > >>into India if India goes for hot chases, surgical strikes, >masala > > dosas, > > >>bhel pooris etc. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like India). > > >> > > >>Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical > > >> > > >>Induction,on Junaid statement > > >>"Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" > > >> > > >>so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not move > out > > of > > >>their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how > > >>India can execute it later. > > >> > > >>--Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier > > >> > > >>Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata > > >>Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham > > >>TRANSLATION > > >>Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata, and > a > > >>rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! > > >>OR > > >>Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O > > >>descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that > > time I > > >>descend myself. > > >>So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple understanding is > > the > > >>9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more remaining to come. The > > followers > > >>of Buddhism now misunderstood it. > > >> > > >>--And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to the > > world > > >>or a bunch of people like you. What to do if people/countries like you > > are > > >>betraying then bullying is the last sort of option. I don't know how > > many > > >>of the readers aware of this but happy to quote from the first Para of > > the > > >>post > > >> > > >>--Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth > > >> > > > http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business > > >> > > >>--On 0, > > >>Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, > > >>understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and joviality > > >>(professor student) and your will in favor/against PATENTING and IPR > is > > >>nothing to do with the practicalities. You may say that countries/you > > can > > >>use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN WAY. No problem you/countries can > > write > > >>whatever the way they wish to use. > > >> > > >> I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members > > aware > > >>that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva > > pact. Under > > >>this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and > > applicable > > >>to India? Let me explain more scientifically. > > >>Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers > operate > > >>on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India > claim > > and > > >>get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of > WTO > > >>Pact should take the permission from India to operate their > ELECTRICAL, > > >>NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or > whatever > > >>COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may > > not > > >>uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow > countries > > to > > >>use 0 for general purposes. It depends again. > > >> > > >>Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear > > dispatch, > > >>for moving them people need INDIA permission. > > >> > > >>We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and need a > > >>motivated, will powered political system to execute this. This is > > feasible > > >>99%. > > >> > > >>Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. > > >> > > >>--On points 1,2,3 > > >>You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and Sadhus > > Shri > > >>Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). Because they are > > all > > >>sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You will never compare them > > with > > >>Aurangazeb. > > >>For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its boarders > from > > >>Alexander to British > > >>1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha > > >>2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka > > >>3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra > > >>4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana > > >> > > >>For your better understanding > > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age > > >>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > >> > > >> > > >>-- On points 4,5 > > >>Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your writing are > in > > >>genuine, I request you to please > > >> > > >>1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond > > >>2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne > > >> > > >>-- On points 6,7,8 > > >>Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna daughter > is > > >>dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it till her teenage > > >>(before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. |This is the fact and > for > > your > > >>kind information. I pity for Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah > > sister > > >>who migrated to Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND > KASHMIR > > is > > >>an Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from > > Pakistan > > >>and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid or like > > >>personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to vacate peaks > > occupied > > >>and offered. > > >>Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive India > is > > >>ready welcome the kid. > > >> > > >>Regards, > > >>Dhatri. > > >> > > >> > > >>--------------------------------- > > >>Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your > story. > > >>Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > >>_________________________________________ > > >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>Critiques & Collaborations > > >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>subscribe in the subject header. > > >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 10:35:22 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:35:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the screening of Taurus Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709142205x61a95dcdle96f86ca77b71fac@mail.gmail.com> http://cpmterror.blogspot.com/2006/11/how-cpm-blocked-screening-of-taurus.html Old news from the BBC From aman.am at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 11:39:39 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 11:39:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <46EB5EE1.1080909@sarai.net> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> <46EB5EE1.1080909@sarai.net> Message-ID: <995a19920709142309wbca1ebbl2745e38c34c9b114@mail.gmail.com> Dear Vishal, Unfortunately, I work for a magazine in Delhi, but I would be happy to pass on your details to friends in the media in Mumbai if you so desire. Perhaps you could write an op-ed/feature piece on this, or get the media to cover this. Regards A. On 9/15/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear Vishal, > > Many thanks for your posting on disappearing signage. As an avowed fan > of typographic curiosities I have long been an admirer of your efforts > to document the typographic diversity of Bombay. > > I share your concern about the disappearance of signage, because of the > ham handed ways in which 'heritage' is interpreted by municipal > authorities. Perhaps one thing that could be done is a small travelling > exhibition based on your work in colleges, and other arts institutions > in Bombay. And with your documentation, it should not be impossible to > convince some of the Bombay papers, say DNA or Mid Day, or even Time Out > Mumbai to publish some articles on the subject. Then maybe, the > 'heritage' lobby itself may be persuaded to step in and realize that the > typographic history of Bombay is as much a part of 'heritage' as > anything else. I am sure that there are some people from DNA and Mid Day > on this list. > > Perhaps they could come out and take this forward. I thought I would > post in reply to your post because typography is somthing that I feel > really strongly about, > > I hope that other people come up with other suggestions, > > best > > Shuddha > > > > Friends, > > > > In 2002 the Typocity project (www.typocity.com) was initiated to > document > > typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of Bombay. Since then, > many of > > the old signs that we documented are slowly vanishing. However, I was > most > > distressed to find that some of this heritage is being destroyed by the > > municipal corporation itself in the name of protecting and > > restoring heritage structures. Nothing can be more absurd. > > > > Please follow this link to see the pictures of replaced signs and find > out > > more: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ Do excuse the quality of some > of > > the recent pictures as they were taken on the spur with a phone-camera. > If > > anyone has better pictures of the recently replaced Eastern Watch sign > > please share it with me. > > > > I am desperately looking for suggestions and ideas to counter this lack > of > > sensitivity by the municipal corporation. I shall be very grateful for > any > > help. > > > > > > Best, > > Vishal > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 11:42:50 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 11:42:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709142142n52243b52o985c2ba9a568af15@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914231952.485.qmail@webmail106.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709142142n52243b52o985c2ba9a568af15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709142312t387e7980oc892ea09f72c04a8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, What you have provoked me into thinking about is how far this "gimme" attitude will go. As a father, I stop my youngest from doing it with his elder siblings since he's at the age when everything is 'mine'. Should I demand back Bangladesh, since as a Bengali my roots are there? Should I demand back Pakistan, where hundreds of thousands of Indians have there roots? Should I demand back Sri Lanka where Ram made his conquest (and it resides in the Indian Ocean) You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting the path forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into civil society. Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye - is that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till the bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. Or do we look at what the government has finally figured out - an 'inclusive' debate wherein concerned parties form a common consensus - which also cuts down the enforced mortality rate. Sure, I can block you off with spam - but that would allow you to write whatever you want as I sit silent. The same attitude in Germany that allowed Hitler to come to power and destroy decades of sensibility and almost wipe out a tribe. I can't because I have growing children and I hope that they will emerge into a reasoned society instead of a regimented one. You talk of the homeless because your home was taken away. That's personal so you care - and forget the pain of separation in India or the Nandigrams and dams that have caused so much pain. "But the dams are for the greater good" - in that case, wouldn't letting peace reign in J&K be for the greater good? I'm sure you have 50+ subscribers writing to you offline, maybe more. Good for you. If they're that proud of you, why slide offline and write? Keep the debate in the public forum unless you're ashamed of your views. When I wrote to you about the Yasin Malik post, all I enquired about was the reason and logic of the debate you wanted to start. Since this is not a blog or a 'me too' mass mail, the whole point about a post here is to raise debate. Till date, though we've reached the level of personal denigration, we have not had a debate on the central issue, and not a single response to the questions I asked. That you have a passion for J&K is an undeniable fact. However, just as I have a passion for Bengal, to present the case to you I must base my argument in reason and not gung-ho platitudes about heads and hearts. That's for polticians making a speech for elections - while this is a forum to discuss and debate viewpoints. If you have a point and a reason, let's talk. If not, why throw up tons of dust in the air? Sure, it'll obfuscate the issue and drown out everything else and make me dirty. But you're there too, and you will get just as dirty. Like every other day I'll take a bath and start off again. If you truly believe that you have a point that you can get across, then explain it and I will listen. If you stick to loud noises then I will make more noises so that my children hopefully get to see an India where reason and love form the core of society - not hate and intolerence. Rgds, Partha On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Anamika , > > That is what I was trying to provoke the likes of Suddha , Partha and > Zainab > to think into. > > When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the liberty to > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi . > > And when I express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought to justice > , > they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. > > If my expression of resentment for a man who has made me homeless is not > acceptable in freedom of speech , I wonder what else is ? > > I would continue to drag the issue below or above the belt as long as the > terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested a button > is > needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That is a gift technology > has > given to us. > > But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. > > To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list writing to > me offline and appreciating my concern. > > Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down the line your child > may be writing the same stuff which I write now. > > Pawan > > > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and counter > replies > > ...true...that > > freedom of speech must be maintained and preserved but these...pawan and > > company drag > > it below the belt...it is so difficult to have a constructive argument > > with them.. > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : > > >Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the > enormous > > > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to > say > > > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the > list. People > > > > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from > > > > violent attacks. > > > > > >I take it all back. > > >_________________________________________ > > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >Critiques & Collaborations > > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject > > header. > > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 11:54:48 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 11:54:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the screening of Taurus In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709142205x61a95dcdle96f86ca77b71fac@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709142205x61a95dcdle96f86ca77b71fac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709142324u4c102e2bncfbfea315f07b7a1@mail.gmail.com> Hi, For simple people like me, do mention along with the link why you posted it. I mena, do you think that blocking screening is a good idea or bad? Or do you feel that the CPM is playing supercop? Rgds, Partha On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > http://cpmterror.blogspot.com/2006/11/how-cpm-blocked-screening-of-taurus.html > > Old news from the > BBC< > http://cpmterror.blogspot.com/2006/01/economic-stagnation-in-bengal.html> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From aman.am at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 11:58:26 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 11:58:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] posters from the "End of Putin's Era" exhibition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <995a19920709142328x74ed1e3cne5faedde3d298684@mail.gmail.com> I know very little about the current politics in russia, but have been following the story via coverage in indian newspapers. I was interesting in knowing what the actual strength of the opposition was. Given the aggressive pro-missile shield position adopted by the US, I often find myself agreeing with a lot of what Putin says. He also seems rather charismatic - and like Sarkozy, gives out the impressions of a man "Who gets things done." The impression that i have gleaned from newspapers here in india suggests that in spite of the Russian economy being run by a tight group of oligarchs and former KGB men; support for Putin remains high. That his muscular foreign policy is seen (in russia) as re-inventing of Russia's role in the world as a counter to US hegemony (Russia recently re-started reconnaissance flights by Tu-class bombers, and detonated what the russian military called 'The Father of All Bombs' in response to the american 'Massive Ordinance Air Blast or 'Mother Of all Bombs') , and that he has systematically squeezed out any space for dissent. However, I am aware that news that emanates out of Russia is seldom "balanced" or "objective" - so i was wondering if there was any truth to this reportage. Further, what are the chances of the opposition group led by Gary Kasparov? How significant a challenger is he? What is worrying is that US foreign policy under W.Bush seems to have made heroes of rather problematic figures like Putin and Ahmadinejad. Would be interested in your opinions on this. Best A, On 9/14/07, Irina Aristarkhova wrote: > Next year Russians will elect a new president. > > Sakharov Center in Moscow is having an exhibition from a poster > competition on a topic of: > > "End of Putin's Era". > > To see the best posters go to: > > http://grani.ru/Projects/contest/m.126760.html > > The winners are: > > 1. http://grani.ru/files/34116.jpg > > It does not need a word translation. It is made by Dmitri, > web-designer from Moscow. > For those who do not know this "finger position", it means "you are > getting nothing", usually used by children. > > 2. http://grani.ru/files/35692.gif > > This one is called the "System Error" and says: "Fatal error: > 2000-2008. You need to re-install your system." > It is made by Maxim Zakharov from Kaliningrad, a video engineer. > > Enjoy! > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 12:20:04 2007 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <100044.900.qm@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Vishal, just judging from the 2 photos there seems in this case to be two different situations. 1) the eastern watch company seems to be our bmc at their finest and most subtle thinking - that is a heritage building and that is the sign on it so it should come down because having signs plastered or affixed on the physical wall of a heritage building is not allowed. no matter that in this case the sign is the building and originally part of the building and therefore part of the heritage. it also sounds like the owners realise this and has safely put it into hiding in the hopes of someday sanity striking the bmc and he can put it back up. or that in any case, it must be saved anyway for its intrinsic value as heritage. and because it is beautiful and they probably value it aesthetically also. so the problem here (and in probably more undiscovered cases) seems to be the BMC. so effort needed in that area........heritage groups brought in. of course the current sign doesnt bear out my theory that they value the aesthetics of the old sign as its pretty not in keeping. but perhaps it is in keeping with the surrounding signages. Maybe the owners wouldnt mind redesigning the current sign using the same typography as the old sign, until they can get the old sign back up. (if that is possible) maybe it just didn't occur to them? Maybe this was easier? Maybe their neighbors advised them? Maybe they have a relative that does, or knows someone that does, signage and that is what they came up with and the owners were so traumatised, or disgusted with having to take down the original sign they let the signage person do whatever. my point i guess is has anyone spoken to the owners..... (which leads me to the 2nd point) 2) the star of asia morphing into yokos. can't really tell from the photos, but it seems to just be an entrepreneurs choice on switching the sign. it doesnt seems to be a bmc edict. looks like they took down the start of asia sign, did some fancy plastering which includes the actual yoko in plaster. so problem here I think is with the lack of appreciation for heritage on the part of yoko's owners. is this their 'branding' font type? so my point is that there needs to be some conversations with the owners/entrepreneurs about typography and heritage. still thinking how to best do this. some area-wide space for conversation, or building by building? engagement should be personal and two-way. maybe they are thinking that their success lies in the 'new' idea of bombay and that this is what it looks like and that is what they want to say about themselves to the public. has anyone engaged them and asked them? I think this is important. also, along with timeout, midday, etc, what about marathi, gujarati, hindi urdu newpapers. or getting some reporter on the local english/vernacular tv stations interested in doing a piece. i'll keep thinking. and i'll try to remember to document anything i see and send it to you. kabi --- Vishal Rawlley wrote: > Friends, > > In 2002 the Typocity project (www.typocity.com) was > initiated to document > typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of > Bombay. Since then, many of > the old signs that we documented are slowly > vanishing. However, I was most > distressed to find that some of this heritage is > being destroyed by the > municipal corporation itself in the name of > protecting and > restoring heritage structures. Nothing can be more > absurd. > > Please follow this link to see the pictures of > replaced signs and find out > more: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ Do excuse > the quality of some of > the recent pictures as they were taken on the spur > with a phone-camera. If > anyone has better pictures of the recently replaced > Eastern Watch sign > please share it with me. > > I am desperately looking for suggestions and ideas > to counter this lack of > sensitivity by the municipal corporation. I shall be > very grateful for any > help. > > > Best, > Vishal > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: http://meterdown.wordpress.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 12:35:55 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:35:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <32144e990709142312t387e7980oc892ea09f72c04a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914231952.485.qmail@webmail106.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709142142n52243b52o985c2ba9a568af15@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709142312t387e7980oc892ea09f72c04a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709150005y2b455a66x9ac3f875727eb2b0@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote >>>>>>You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting the path forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into civil society. Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye - is that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till the bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Partha , We live in a country where the constitution exists. general amnesty to all criminals ,especially terrorists is a very dangerous thought. We can not go on and start defending people for they are *supposed* to have been reformed [ or become political ] . Justice has to be served for their deeds. These people have been source of violence against innconets , and responsible for making a race homeless. As the Pope Greogery VII had once said and this may hold true for me ,"I have loved justice and hated inequity; and therefore I die in exile." Regards Pawan Durani > Dear Pawan, > > What you have provoked me into thinking about is how far this "gimme" > attitude will go. As a father, I stop my youngest from doing it with his > elder siblings since he's at the age when everything is 'mine'. > > Should I demand back Bangladesh, since as a Bengali my roots are there? > > Should I demand back Pakistan, where hundreds of thousands of Indians have > there roots? > > Should I demand back Sri Lanka where Ram made his conquest (and it resides > in the Indian Ocean) > > You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting the path > forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into civil > society. > > Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye - is > that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till the > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. > > Or do we look at what the government has finally figured out - an > 'inclusive' debate wherein concerned parties form a common consensus - which > also cuts down the enforced mortality rate. > > Sure, I can block you off with spam - but that would allow you to write > whatever you want as I sit silent. The same attitude in Germany that allowed > Hitler to come to power and destroy decades of sensibility and almost wipe > out a tribe. I can't because I have growing children and I hope that they > will emerge into a reasoned society instead of a regimented one. > > You talk of the homeless because your home was taken away. That's personal > so you care - and forget the pain of separation in India or the Nandigrams > and dams that have caused so much pain. > > "But the dams are for the greater good" - in that case, wouldn't letting > peace reign in J&K be for the greater good? > > I'm sure you have 50+ subscribers writing to you offline, maybe more. Good > for you. If they're that proud of you, why slide offline and write? Keep the > debate in the public forum unless you're ashamed of your views. > > When I wrote to you about the Yasin Malik post, all I enquired about was > the reason and logic of the debate you wanted to start. Since this is not a > blog or a 'me too' mass mail, the whole point about a post here is to raise > debate. > > Till date, though we've reached the level of personal denigration, we have > not had a debate on the central issue, and not a single response to the > questions I asked. > > That you have a passion for J&K is an undeniable fact. However, just as I > have a passion for Bengal, to present the case to you I must base my > argument in reason and not gung-ho platitudes about heads and hearts. That's > for polticians making a speech for elections - while this is a forum to > discuss and debate viewpoints. > > If you have a point and a reason, let's talk. If not, why throw up tons of > dust in the air? Sure, it'll obfuscate the issue and drown out everything > else and make me dirty. But you're there too, and you will get just as > dirty. Like every other day I'll take a bath and start off again. > > If you truly believe that you have a point that you can get across, then > explain it and I will listen. If you stick to loud noises then I will make > more noises so that my children hopefully get to see an India where reason > and love form the core of society - not hate and intolerence. > > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Anamika , > > > > That is what I was trying to provoke the likes of Suddha , Partha and > > Zainab > > to think into. > > > > When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the liberty to > > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi . > > > > And when I express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought to > > justice , > > they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. > > > > If my expression of resentment for a man who has made me homeless is not > > > > acceptable in freedom of speech , I wonder what else is ? > > > > I would continue to drag the issue below or above the belt as long as > > the > > terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested a > > button is > > needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That is a gift technology > > has > > given to us. > > > > But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. > > > > To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list writing > > to > > me offline and appreciating my concern. > > > > Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down the line your > > child > > may be writing the same stuff which I write now. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < > > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and counter > > replies > > > ...true...that > > > freedom of speech must be maintained and preserved but these...pawan > > and > > > company drag > > > it below the belt...it is so difficult to have a constructive argument > > > with them.. > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : > > > >Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the > > enormous > > > > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to > > say > > > > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the > > list. People > > > > > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or > > from > > > > > violent attacks. > > > > > > > >I take it all back. > > > >_________________________________________ > > > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >Critiques & Collaborations > > > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject > > > header. > > > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From sen.gargi at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 12:46:58 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:46:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the screening of Taurus In-Reply-To: <32144e990709142324u4c102e2bncfbfea315f07b7a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Partha, Leave it. To the AR2KP+VD (hope you have figured this acronym out) bunch anyone claiming to be a Marxist or a communist is a card carrying CPM member. To their worldview it is not possible to be a communist and not be CPM (although wonder why don¹t they pull out the CPI, Forward Block and the n number of left parties!) So the AR2KP bunch are trying to tell us ­ at least many on the list who believe in free speech, even that speech that one isn¹t in agreement with or does not like or feels uncomfortable with ­ that here is your brethren doing exactly what you are telling us to not do. And hence, where is your moral high ground? Let children have simple pleasures in life Partha ­ even though my 5 yr old certainly doesn¹t believe in this kind of you¹re-bad-because-the-company-you-keep-is-bad simplicity ­ I can live allowing the AR2KP+VD to have their simple pleasures and gleeful gloating. It doesn¹t bother me what the bunch think of the CPM, I probably think far worse because of very complicated and messy history and think so with far more pain. We had once started to discuss on this list is there a way to measure pain? Is there any measuring instrument that can measure all our individual pain and see who scores the highest? As I don¹t yet know of any such device or instrument but I am still willing to accept that the AR2KP+VD bunch have been through pain, intense and undeserved pain, unfair pain and endless pain. But for me to remain restricted to a boundary circumscribed by mere pain, that too a pain that has been caused 17 years ago, to continuously evoke that pain and use that pain to not see anything else besides that pain, is to reduce that very pain to something really terrible. And its this something-terrible that makes for blinkered visions and blinkered minds. The blinkered mind of Dritarashtra and the conscious blocking of vision by Gandhari led to fratricide leading to near annihilation of the entire tribe/ clan/ community. And so I continue to engage and debate, even if shit is being thrown up. Nevertheless my presence on this list is simply as someone who thinks and I stand guilty of their charge of an intellectual (I can hear my friends fall off laughing) and so possibly what I am saying is from the mind and thought-plane and not the heart and pain-plane. So there¹s a gulf of understanding and positions, a gulf we can possibly try to cross on this list, and on such lists only simply for its virtue of being virtual. I am sure in real life even conversations with them might have been impossible. Also, I am also somewhat grateful to the bunch for provoking some of the best posts I have read in recent times. Shuddha¹s post on Hyenas, Tarun¹s on Panditocracy, Sanjay Kak¹s drawing a ghoulish picture of himself as a patriot, Vishal Rawlley¹s list of patentables are simply brilliant and I am not sure these would have happened without the AR2KP+VD. So everything perhaps has a purpose, however inexplicable, however painful. Gargi On 9/15/07 11:54 AM, "Partha Dasgupta" wrote: > Hi, For simple people like me, do mention along with the link why you posted > it. I mena, do you think that blocking screening is a good idea or bad? Or do > you feel that the CPM is playing supercop? Rgds, Partha On 9/15/07, Pawan > Durani wrote: > > > > http://cpmterror.blogspot.com/2006/11/how-cpm-blocked-screening-of-taurus.html > > > Old news from the > BBC< > > http://cpmterror.blogspot.com/2006/01/economic-stagnation-in-bengal.html> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha > Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list > on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email > to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 12:57:20 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:57:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709150005y2b455a66x9ac3f875727eb2b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914231952.485.qmail@webmail106.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709142142n52243b52o985c2ba9a568af15@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709142312t387e7980oc892ea09f72c04a8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709150005y2b455a66x9ac3f875727eb2b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709150027w10f1c872ia00d7611bfbdc925@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, We go back to the same loop of only looking at a part of a debate, out of it's context. Let me get back to where I set off from - why don't we start agitating for Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka... When do we stop the killing and look after the living? You talk of the constitution of India, and then rail at the ones who have been pardoned and believed by the same constitution. Just because you don't believe is something or someone doesn't mean everyone else has to - UNLESS there is a reasoned argument behind that cause - and I haven't seen one as yet. Like I've said time and again - show me the reason. Else, why shouldn't I drown out your shouts for J&K for my call for a 'Greater Bangla' (or whatever else) just because I am blinkered to everything else. Rgds, Partha ......................................... On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote > > >>>>>>You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting the > path forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into civil > society. > Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye - is > that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till the > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Partha , > We live in a country where the constitution exists. general amnesty to all > criminals ,especially terrorists is a very dangerous thought. > > We can not go on and start defending people for they are *supposed* to > have been reformed [ or become political ] . Justice has to be served for > their deeds. These people have been source of violence against innconets , > and responsible for making a race homeless. > > As the Pope Greogery VII had once said and this may hold true for me ,"I > have loved justice and hated inequity; and therefore I die in exile." > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > What you have provoked me into thinking about is how far this "gimme" > > attitude will go. As a father, I stop my youngest from doing it with his > > elder siblings since he's at the age when everything is 'mine'. > > > > Should I demand back Bangladesh, since as a Bengali my roots are there? > > > > Should I demand back Pakistan, where hundreds of thousands of Indians > > have there roots? > > > > Should I demand back Sri Lanka where Ram made his conquest (and it > > resides in the Indian Ocean) > > > > You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting the path > > forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into civil > > society. > > > > Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye - is > > that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till the > > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. > > > > Or do we look at what the government has finally figured out - an > > 'inclusive' debate wherein concerned parties form a common consensus - which > > also cuts down the enforced mortality rate. > > > > Sure, I can block you off with spam - but that would allow you to write > > whatever you want as I sit silent. The same attitude in Germany that allowed > > Hitler to come to power and destroy decades of sensibility and almost wipe > > out a tribe. I can't because I have growing children and I hope that they > > will emerge into a reasoned society instead of a regimented one. > > > > You talk of the homeless because your home was taken away. That's > > personal so you care - and forget the pain of separation in India or the > > Nandigrams and dams that have caused so much pain. > > > > "But the dams are for the greater good" - in that case, wouldn't letting > > peace reign in J&K be for the greater good? > > > > I'm sure you have 50+ subscribers writing to you offline, maybe more. > > Good for you. If they're that proud of you, why slide offline and write? > > Keep the debate in the public forum unless you're ashamed of your views. > > > > When I wrote to you about the Yasin Malik post, all I enquired about was > > the reason and logic of the debate you wanted to start. Since this is not a > > blog or a 'me too' mass mail, the whole point about a post here is to raise > > debate. > > > > Till date, though we've reached the level of personal denigration, we > > have not had a debate on the central issue, and not a single response to the > > questions I asked. > > > > That you have a passion for J&K is an undeniable fact. However, just as > > I have a passion for Bengal, to present the case to you I must base my > > argument in reason and not gung-ho platitudes about heads and hearts. That's > > for polticians making a speech for elections - while this is a forum to > > discuss and debate viewpoints. > > > > If you have a point and a reason, let's talk. If not, why throw up tons > > of dust in the air? Sure, it'll obfuscate the issue and drown out everything > > else and make me dirty. But you're there too, and you will get just as > > dirty. Like every other day I'll take a bath and start off again. > > > > If you truly believe that you have a point that you can get across, then > > explain it and I will listen. If you stick to loud noises then I will make > > more noises so that my children hopefully get to see an India where reason > > and love form the core of society - not hate and intolerence. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Anamika , > > > > > > That is what I was trying to provoke the likes of Suddha , Partha and > > > Zainab > > > to think into. > > > > > > When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the liberty to > > > > > > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi . > > > > > > And when I express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought to > > > justice , > > > they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. > > > > > > If my expression of resentment for a man who has made me homeless is > > > not > > > acceptable in freedom of speech , I wonder what else is ? > > > > > > I would continue to drag the issue below or above the belt as long as > > > the > > > terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested a > > > button is > > > needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That is a gift > > > technology has > > > given to us. > > > > > > But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. > > > > > > To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list > > > writing to > > > me offline and appreciating my concern. > > > > > > Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down the line your > > > child > > > may be writing the same stuff which I write now. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < > > > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and counter > > > replies > > > > ...true...that > > > > freedom of speech must be maintained and preserved but these...pawan > > > and > > > > company drag > > > > it below the belt...it is so difficult to have a constructive > > > argument > > > > with them.. > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : > > > > >Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the > > > enormous > > > > > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have > > > to say > > > > > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the > > > list. People > > > > > > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or > > > from > > > > > > violent attacks. > > > > > > > > > >I take it all back. > > > > >_________________________________________ > > > > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > >Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject > > > > header. > > > > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 13:17:08 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:17:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <32144e990709150027w10f1c872ia00d7611bfbdc925@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914231952.485.qmail@webmail106.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709142142n52243b52o985c2ba9a568af15@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709142312t387e7980oc892ea09f72c04a8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709150005y2b455a66x9ac3f875727eb2b0@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709150027w10f1c872ia00d7611bfbdc925@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709150047l26beb6b8wbaf83190297fdbad@mail.gmail.com> Hello Partha , Didn't I tell you that the terrorist has not been pardoned by the law , unless you chose to ignore that. Pawan On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > We go back to the same loop of only looking at a part of a debate, out of > it's context. > > Let me get back to where I set off from - why don't we start agitating for > Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka... > > When do we stop the killing and look after the living? > > You talk of the constitution of India, and then rail at the ones who have > been pardoned and believed by the same constitution. > > Just because you don't believe is something or someone doesn't mean > everyone else has to - UNLESS there is a reasoned argument behind that cause > - and I haven't seen one as yet. > > Like I've said time and again - show me the reason. Else, why shouldn't I > drown out your shouts for J&K for my call for a 'Greater Bangla' (or > whatever else) just because I am blinkered to everything else. > > Rgds, Partha > ......................................... > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote > > > > >>>>>>You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting the > > path forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into civil > > society. > > Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye - is > > that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till the > > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > Partha , > > We live in a country where the constitution exists. general amnesty to > > all criminals ,especially terrorists is a very dangerous thought. > > > > We can not go on and start defending people for they are *supposed* to > > have been reformed [ or become political ] . Justice has to be served for > > their deeds. These people have been source of violence against innconets , > > and responsible for making a race homeless. > > > > As the Pope Greogery VII had once said and this may hold true for me > > ,"I have loved justice and hated inequity; and therefore I die in exile." > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > What you have provoked me into thinking about is how far this "gimme" > > > attitude will go. As a father, I stop my youngest from doing it with his > > > elder siblings since he's at the age when everything is 'mine'. > > > > > > Should I demand back Bangladesh, since as a Bengali my roots are > > > there? > > > > > > Should I demand back Pakistan, where hundreds of thousands of Indians > > > have there roots? > > > > > > Should I demand back Sri Lanka where Ram made his conquest (and it > > > resides in the Indian Ocean) > > > > > > You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting the path > > > forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into civil > > > society. > > > > > > Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye - > > > is that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till the > > > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. > > > > > > Or do we look at what the government has finally figured out - an > > > 'inclusive' debate wherein concerned parties form a common consensus - which > > > also cuts down the enforced mortality rate. > > > > > > Sure, I can block you off with spam - but that would allow you to > > > write whatever you want as I sit silent. The same attitude in Germany that > > > allowed Hitler to come to power and destroy decades of sensibility and > > > almost wipe out a tribe. I can't because I have growing children and I hope > > > that they will emerge into a reasoned society instead of a regimented one. > > > > > > You talk of the homeless because your home was taken away. That's > > > personal so you care - and forget the pain of separation in India or the > > > Nandigrams and dams that have caused so much pain. > > > > > > "But the dams are for the greater good" - in that case, wouldn't > > > letting peace reign in J&K be for the greater good? > > > > > > I'm sure you have 50+ subscribers writing to you offline, maybe more. > > > Good for you. If they're that proud of you, why slide offline and write? > > > Keep the debate in the public forum unless you're ashamed of your views. > > > > > > When I wrote to you about the Yasin Malik post, all I enquired about > > > was the reason and logic of the debate you wanted to start. Since this is > > > not a blog or a 'me too' mass mail, the whole point about a post here is to > > > raise debate. > > > > > > Till date, though we've reached the level of personal denigration, we > > > have not had a debate on the central issue, and not a single response to the > > > questions I asked. > > > > > > That you have a passion for J&K is an undeniable fact. However, just > > > as I have a passion for Bengal, to present the case to you I must base my > > > argument in reason and not gung-ho platitudes about heads and hearts. That's > > > for polticians making a speech for elections - while this is a forum to > > > discuss and debate viewpoints. > > > > > > If you have a point and a reason, let's talk. If not, why throw up > > > tons of dust in the air? Sure, it'll obfuscate the issue and drown out > > > everything else and make me dirty. But you're there too, and you will get > > > just as dirty. Like every other day I'll take a bath and start off again. > > > > > > If you truly believe that you have a point that you can get across, > > > then explain it and I will listen. If you stick to loud noises then I will > > > make more noises so that my children hopefully get to see an India where > > > reason and love form the core of society - not hate and intolerence. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Anamika , > > > > > > > > That is what I was trying to provoke the likes of Suddha , Partha > > > > and Zainab > > > > to think into. > > > > > > > > When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the liberty > > > > to > > > > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi . > > > > > > > > And when I express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought to > > > > justice , > > > > they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. > > > > > > > > If my expression of resentment for a man who has made me homeless is > > > > not > > > > acceptable in freedom of speech , I wonder what else is ? > > > > > > > > I would continue to drag the issue below or above the belt as long > > > > as the > > > > terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested a > > > > button is > > > > needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That is a gift > > > > technology has > > > > given to us. > > > > > > > > But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. > > > > > > > > To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list > > > > writing to > > > > me offline and appreciating my concern. > > > > > > > > Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down the line your > > > > child > > > > may be writing the same stuff which I write now. > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < > > > > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and counter > > > > replies > > > > > ...true...that > > > > > freedom of speech must be maintained and preserved but > > > > these...pawan and > > > > > company drag > > > > > it below the belt...it is so difficult to have a constructive > > > > argument > > > > > with them.. > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : > > > > > >Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the > > > > enormous > > > > > > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I > > > > have to say > > > > > > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the > > > > list. People > > > > > > > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or > > > > from > > > > > > > violent attacks. > > > > > > > > > > > >I take it all back. > > > > > >_________________________________________ > > > > > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > >Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject > > > > > header. > > > > > >To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 13:18:00 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:18:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the screening of Taurus In-Reply-To: References: <32144e990709142324u4c102e2bncfbfea315f07b7a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709150048m3210d3b7md4d8d9955da85539@mail.gmail.com> Dear Gargi, Actually, haven't figured out the acronym as yet. In fact, figured out the 'SAP' one only when Shuddha clarified. Was a bit surprised to see strong Indian patriots using Americanism. Guess some of the virus of intellectualism has infected them as well. Whether CPM or whatever, the reason a human being has a heart and a mind is that the folks up there felt that both were required to have a balanced life (though we couldn't live without either) and a balanced decision. Just as I wouldn't sacrifice my children because a tantric demands human sacrifice, and just as I fought a group of my friends in the frenzy of a mob who wanted to torch a bus - I will disagree here as well, because staying silent is what has allowed monsters like Hitler the freedom to make the loudest mouth the ruler. When there is a scab on a wound, does one always tear it off to force bleeding and infection or cover it to heal? Yet, this scab is being scratched again and again with howls of "look, I'm bleeding" I'm not qualified enough to say which hospital is required here, but I do know that serious help is required before our silence lets them become the loudest voices, and we leave our children in a narrow, hate driven society. Rgds, Partha .............. On 9/15/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > > Dear Partha, > Leave it. To the AR2KP+VD (hope you have figured this acronym out) bunch > anyone claiming to be a Marxist or a communist is a card carrying CPM > member. To their worldview it is not possible to be a communist and not be > CPM (although wonder why don't they pull out the CPI, Forward Block and the > n number of left parties!) > So the AR2KP bunch are trying to tell us – at least many on the list who > believe in free speech, even that speech that one isn't in agreement with > or does not like or feels uncomfortable with – that here is your brethren > doing exactly what you are telling us to not do. And hence, where is your > moral high ground? > Let children have simple pleasures in life Partha – even though my 5 yr > old certainly doesn't believe in this kind of > you're-bad-because-the-company-you-keep-is-bad simplicity – I can live > allowing the AR2KP+VD to have their simple pleasures and gleeful gloating. > It doesn't bother me what the bunch think of the CPM, I probably think far > worse because of very complicated and messy history and think so with far > more pain. > > We had once started to discuss on this list is there a way to measure > pain? Is there any measuring instrument that can measure all our individual > pain and see who scores the highest? As I don't yet know of any such device > or instrument but I am still willing to accept that the AR2KP+VD bunch have > been through pain, intense and undeserved pain, unfair pain and endless > pain. But for me to remain restricted to a boundary circumscribed by mere > pain, that too a pain that has been caused 17 years ago, to continuously > evoke that pain and use that pain to not see anything else besides that > pain, is to reduce that very pain to something really terrible. > > And its this something-terrible that makes for blinkered visions and > blinkered minds. The blinkered mind of Dritarashtra and the conscious > blocking of vision by Gandhari led to fratricide leading to near > annihilation of the entire tribe/ clan/ community. And so I continue to > engage and debate, even if shit is being thrown up. > > Nevertheless my presence on this list is simply as someone who thinks and > I stand guilty of their charge of an intellectual (I can hear my friends > fall off laughing) and so possibly what I am saying is from the mind and > thought-plane and not the heart and pain-plane. So there's a gulf of > understanding and positions, a gulf we can possibly try to cross on this > list, and on such lists only simply for its virtue of being virtual. I am > sure in real life even conversations with them might have been impossible. > > Also, I am also somewhat grateful to the bunch for provoking some of the > best posts I have read in recent times. Shuddha's post on Hyenas, Tarun's on > Panditocracy, Sanjay Kak's drawing a ghoulish picture of himself as a > patriot, Vishal Rawlley's list of patentables are simply brilliant and I am > not sure these would have happened without the AR2KP+VD. So everything > perhaps has a purpose, however inexplicable, however painful. > > Gargi > > > On 9/15/07 11:54 AM, "Partha Dasgupta" wrote: > > Hi, For simple people like me, do mention along with the link why you > posted it. I mena, do you think that blocking screening is a good idea or > bad? Or do you feel that the CPM is playing supercop? Rgds, Partha On > 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > http://cpmterror.blogspot.com/2006/11/how-cpm-blocked-screening-of-taurus.html> > Old news from the > BBC< > > http://cpmterror.blogspot.com/2006/01/economic-stagnation-in-bengal.html> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta > (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka_________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 13:28:53 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:28:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709150047l26beb6b8wbaf83190297fdbad@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914231952.485.qmail@webmail106.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709142142n52243b52o985c2ba9a568af15@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709142312t387e7980oc892ea09f72c04a8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709150005y2b455a66x9ac3f875727eb2b0@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709150027w10f1c872ia00d7611bfbdc925@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709150047l26beb6b8wbaf83190297fdbad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709150058s3387ac28s58b8b51fd3753bb2@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, He obviously hasn't been pardoned by you. Amongst the many things that you told me, why not tell me one thing more that I asked - why shouldn't I cry out for a 'Greater Bangla' and ignore your's of J&K. I see the passion and the pain, but I don't see the reason. Rgds, Partha On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Hello Partha , > > Didn't I tell you that the terrorist has not been pardoned by the law , > unless you chose to ignore that. > > > Pawan > > > On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > We go back to the same loop of only looking at a part of a debate, out > > of it's context. > > > > Let me get back to where I set off from - why don't we start agitating > > for Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka... > > > > When do we stop the killing and look after the living? > > > > You talk of the constitution of India, and then rail at the ones who > > have been pardoned and believed by the same constitution. > > > > Just because you don't believe is something or someone doesn't mean > > everyone else has to - UNLESS there is a reasoned argument behind that cause > > - and I haven't seen one as yet. > > > > Like I've said time and again - show me the reason. Else, why shouldn't > > I drown out your shouts for J&K for my call for a 'Greater Bangla' (or > > whatever else) just because I am blinkered to everything else. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ......................................... > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta parthaekka at gmail.com > wrote > > > > > > >>>>>>You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting > > > the path forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into > > > civil society. > > > Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye - > > > is that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till the > > > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > Partha , > > > We live in a country where the constitution exists. general amnesty to > > > all criminals ,especially terrorists is a very dangerous thought. > > > > > > We can not go on and start defending people for they are *supposed* to > > > have been reformed [ or become political ] . Justice has to be served for > > > their deeds. These people have been source of violence against innconets , > > > and responsible for making a race homeless. > > > > > > As the Pope Greogery VII had once said and this may hold true for me > > > ,"I have loved justice and hated inequity; and therefore I die in exile." > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > What you have provoked me into thinking about is how far this > > > > "gimme" attitude will go. As a father, I stop my youngest from doing it with > > > > his elder siblings since he's at the age when everything is 'mine'. > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Bangladesh, since as a Bengali my roots are > > > > there? > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Pakistan, where hundreds of thousands of > > > > Indians have there roots? > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Sri Lanka where Ram made his conquest (and it > > > > resides in the Indian Ocean) > > > > > > > > You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting the > > > > path forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into civil > > > > society. > > > > > > > > Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye > > > > - is that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till the > > > > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. > > > > > > > > Or do we look at what the government has finally figured out - an > > > > 'inclusive' debate wherein concerned parties form a common consensus - which > > > > also cuts down the enforced mortality rate. > > > > > > > > Sure, I can block you off with spam - but that would allow you to > > > > write whatever you want as I sit silent. The same attitude in Germany that > > > > allowed Hitler to come to power and destroy decades of sensibility and > > > > almost wipe out a tribe. I can't because I have growing children and I hope > > > > that they will emerge into a reasoned society instead of a regimented one. > > > > > > > > You talk of the homeless because your home was taken away. That's > > > > personal so you care - and forget the pain of separation in India or the > > > > Nandigrams and dams that have caused so much pain. > > > > > > > > "But the dams are for the greater good" - in that case, wouldn't > > > > letting peace reign in J&K be for the greater good? > > > > > > > > I'm sure you have 50+ subscribers writing to you offline, maybe > > > > more. Good for you. If they're that proud of you, why slide offline and > > > > write? Keep the debate in the public forum unless you're ashamed of your > > > > views. > > > > > > > > When I wrote to you about the Yasin Malik post, all I enquired about > > > > was the reason and logic of the debate you wanted to start. Since this is > > > > not a blog or a 'me too' mass mail, the whole point about a post here is to > > > > raise debate. > > > > > > > > Till date, though we've reached the level of personal denigration, > > > > we have not had a debate on the central issue, and not a single response to > > > > the questions I asked. > > > > > > > > That you have a passion for J&K is an undeniable fact. However, just > > > > as I have a passion for Bengal, to present the case to you I must base my > > > > argument in reason and not gung-ho platitudes about heads and hearts. That's > > > > for polticians making a speech for elections - while this is a forum to > > > > discuss and debate viewpoints. > > > > > > > > If you have a point and a reason, let's talk. If not, why throw up > > > > tons of dust in the air? Sure, it'll obfuscate the issue and drown out > > > > everything else and make me dirty. But you're there too, and you will get > > > > just as dirty. Like every other day I'll take a bath and start off again. > > > > > > > > If you truly believe that you have a point that you can get across, > > > > then explain it and I will listen. If you stick to loud noises then I will > > > > make more noises so that my children hopefully get to see an India where > > > > reason and love form the core of society - not hate and intolerence. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Anamika , > > > > > > > > > > That is what I was trying to provoke the likes of Suddha , Partha > > > > > and Zainab > > > > > to think into. > > > > > > > > > > When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the > > > > > liberty to > > > > > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi . > > > > > > > > > > And when I express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought to > > > > > justice , > > > > > they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. > > > > > > > > > > If my expression of resentment for a man who has made me homeless > > > > > is not > > > > > acceptable in freedom of speech , I wonder what else is ? > > > > > > > > > > I would continue to drag the issue below or above the belt as long > > > > > as the > > > > > terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested a > > > > > button is > > > > > needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That is a gift > > > > > technology has > > > > > given to us. > > > > > > > > > > But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. > > > > > > > > > > To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list > > > > > writing to > > > > > me offline and appreciating my concern. > > > > > > > > > > Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down the line > > > > > your child > > > > > may be writing the same stuff which I write now. > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < > > > > > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and > > > > > counter replies > > > > > > ...true...that > > > > > > freedom of speech must be maintained and preserved but > > > > > these...pawan and > > > > > > company drag > > > > > > it below the belt...it is so difficult to have a constructive > > > > > argument > > > > > > with them.. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : > > > > > > >Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and > > > > > the enormous > > > > > > > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I > > > > > have to say > > > > > > > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the > > > > > list. People > > > > > > > > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, > > > > > or from > > > > > > > > violent attacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I take it all back. > > > > > > >_________________________________________ > > > > > > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > >Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject > > > > > > header. > > > > > > >To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > >List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 13:49:01 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:49:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <32144e990709150058s3387ac28s58b8b51fd3753bb2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070914231952.485.qmail@webmail106.rediffmail.com> <6b79f1a70709142142n52243b52o985c2ba9a568af15@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709142312t387e7980oc892ea09f72c04a8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709150005y2b455a66x9ac3f875727eb2b0@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709150027w10f1c872ia00d7611bfbdc925@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709150047l26beb6b8wbaf83190297fdbad@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709150058s3387ac28s58b8b51fd3753bb2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709150119m5c56d388occ8df22a4a30dad8@mail.gmail.com> Partha , I have no love for the killers or terrorists. They do NOT deserve it. Neither do I serve Justice , but I do CRY for it. Ofcourse I have not pardoned Yasin Malik the terrorist , and more ever he has NOT regreted any of his killings. Regarding the "Greater Bangla " issue , i have no knowledge as of now about it , and hence would not like to comment on that .I am not an expert of life on everything or life on mars ....like few of the people here are. God Bless Pawan On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > He obviously hasn't been pardoned by you. Amongst the many things that you > told me, why not tell me one thing more that I asked - why shouldn't I cry > out for a 'Greater Bangla' and ignore your's of J&K. > > I see the passion and the pain, but I don't see the reason. > > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hello Partha , > > > > Didn't I tell you that the terrorist has not been pardoned by the law , > > unless you chose to ignore that. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > We go back to the same loop of only looking at a part of a debate, out > > > of it's context. > > > > > > Let me get back to where I set off from - why don't we start agitating > > > for Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka... > > > > > > When do we stop the killing and look after the living? > > > > > > You talk of the constitution of India, and then rail at the ones who > > > have been pardoned and believed by the same constitution. > > > > > > Just because you don't believe is something or someone doesn't mean > > > everyone else has to - UNLESS there is a reasoned argument behind that cause > > > - and I haven't seen one as yet. > > > > > > Like I've said time and again - show me the reason. Else, why > > > shouldn't I drown out your shouts for J&K for my call for a 'Greater Bangla' > > > (or whatever else) just because I am blinkered to everything else. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ......................................... > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta parthaekka at gmail.com > wrote > > > > > > > > >>>>>>You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting > > > > the path forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into > > > > civil society. > > > > Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye > > > > - is that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till the > > > > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > Partha , > > > > We live in a country where the constitution exists. general amnesty > > > > to all criminals ,especially terrorists is a very dangerous thought. > > > > > > > > We can not go on and start defending people for they are *supposed* > > > > to have been reformed [ or become political ] . Justice has to be served for > > > > their deeds. These people have been source of violence against innconets , > > > > and responsible for making a race homeless. > > > > > > > > As the Pope Greogery VII had once said and this may hold true for > > > > me ,"I have loved justice and hated inequity; and therefore I die in exile." > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > What you have provoked me into thinking about is how far this > > > > > "gimme" attitude will go. As a father, I stop my youngest from doing it with > > > > > his elder siblings since he's at the age when everything is 'mine'. > > > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Bangladesh, since as a Bengali my roots are > > > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Pakistan, where hundreds of thousands of > > > > > Indians have there roots? > > > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Sri Lanka where Ram made his conquest (and it > > > > > resides in the Indian Ocean) > > > > > > > > > > You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting the > > > > > path forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into civil > > > > > society. > > > > > > > > > > Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an > > > > > eye - is that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till > > > > > the bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. > > > > > > > > > > Or do we look at what the government has finally figured out - an > > > > > 'inclusive' debate wherein concerned parties form a common consensus - which > > > > > also cuts down the enforced mortality rate. > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I can block you off with spam - but that would allow you to > > > > > write whatever you want as I sit silent. The same attitude in Germany that > > > > > allowed Hitler to come to power and destroy decades of sensibility and > > > > > almost wipe out a tribe. I can't because I have growing children and I hope > > > > > that they will emerge into a reasoned society instead of a regimented one. > > > > > > > > > > You talk of the homeless because your home was taken away. That's > > > > > personal so you care - and forget the pain of separation in India or the > > > > > Nandigrams and dams that have caused so much pain. > > > > > > > > > > "But the dams are for the greater good" - in that case, wouldn't > > > > > letting peace reign in J&K be for the greater good? > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure you have 50+ subscribers writing to you offline, maybe > > > > > more. Good for you. If they're that proud of you, why slide offline and > > > > > write? Keep the debate in the public forum unless you're ashamed of your > > > > > views. > > > > > > > > > > When I wrote to you about the Yasin Malik post, all I enquired > > > > > about was the reason and logic of the debate you wanted to start. Since this > > > > > is not a blog or a 'me too' mass mail, the whole point about a post here is > > > > > to raise debate. > > > > > > > > > > Till date, though we've reached the level of personal denigration, > > > > > we have not had a debate on the central issue, and not a single response to > > > > > the questions I asked. > > > > > > > > > > That you have a passion for J&K is an undeniable fact. However, > > > > > just as I have a passion for Bengal, to present the case to you I must base > > > > > my argument in reason and not gung-ho platitudes about heads and hearts. > > > > > That's for polticians making a speech for elections - while this is a forum > > > > > to discuss and debate viewpoints. > > > > > > > > > > If you have a point and a reason, let's talk. If not, why throw up > > > > > tons of dust in the air? Sure, it'll obfuscate the issue and drown out > > > > > everything else and make me dirty. But you're there too, and you will get > > > > > just as dirty. Like every other day I'll take a bath and start off again. > > > > > > > > > > If you truly believe that you have a point that you can get > > > > > across, then explain it and I will listen. If you stick to loud noises then > > > > > I will make more noises so that my children hopefully get to see an India > > > > > where reason and love form the core of society - not hate and intolerence. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Anamika , > > > > > > > > > > > > That is what I was trying to provoke the likes of Suddha , > > > > > > Partha and Zainab > > > > > > to think into. > > > > > > > > > > > > When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the > > > > > > liberty to > > > > > > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi . > > > > > > > > > > > > And when I express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought > > > > > > to justice , > > > > > > they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. > > > > > > > > > > > > If my expression of resentment for a man who has made me > > > > > > homeless is not > > > > > > acceptable in freedom of speech , I wonder what else is ? > > > > > > > > > > > > I would continue to drag the issue below or above the belt as > > > > > > long as the > > > > > > terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested > > > > > > a button is > > > > > > needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That is a gift > > > > > > technology has > > > > > > given to us. > > > > > > > > > > > > But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. > > > > > > > > > > > > To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list > > > > > > writing to > > > > > > me offline and appreciating my concern. > > > > > > > > > > > > Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down the line > > > > > > your child > > > > > > may be writing the same stuff which I write now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < > > > > > > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and > > > > > > counter replies > > > > > > > ...true...that > > > > > > > freedom of speech must be maintained and preserved but > > > > > > these...pawan and > > > > > > > company drag > > > > > > > it below the belt...it is so difficult to have a constructive > > > > > > argument > > > > > > > with them.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : > > > > > > > >Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and > > > > > > the enormous > > > > > > > > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I > > > > > > have to say > > > > > > > > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the > > > > > > list. People > > > > > > > > > have held themselves back from expressing outright > > > > > > disgust, or from > > > > > > > > > violent attacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I take it all back. > > > > > > > >_________________________________________ > > > > > > > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > >Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject > > > > > > > header. > > > > > > > >To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > >List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > with > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > From aliak77 at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 13:50:43 2007 From: aliak77 at gmail.com (Kath O'Donnell) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 11:20:43 +0300 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <383607190709150120q66fd614bs1aea17f6c7940051@mail.gmail.com> good luck with your project. I haven't any photos of Mumbai buildings (have only been there on a stopover) but I liked the signs in Delhi & Bangalore. most of them seemed hand painted apart from a few newer printed full-size rollup screens. I always wondered about this. it seemed to me that there was a whole industry/skillset behind this. and if they moved to more westernised / printed screens to look like every other country's city, that people would lose this skill. plus what we noticed was that India seemed to give more opportunities to people instead of automated processes (likely for a range of reasons). I thought this was good that people were given work and could still produce work with their hands instead of everything being done by machines. similar for the handpainted pictures on the rear of the autorickshaws. (I have a small collection of these on flickr). I might be back in Delhi later this year so will take more photos then. one of the guys from work (in bangalore) mentioned there was an area of the city where you could go and see the signs being painted. do you know the reason for the change? is it part of westernisation? automation? or just to clean up the city? for the locals or the tourists? it'd be nice if they restored the signs rather than replaced them. they could market the area as an art-deco (where appropriate) or yesteryear art precinct. maybe u could start a project to do / organise the restoration and work with the building developers. or have an exhibition and ask the locals which they prefer in their city. at the very least if might help raise awareness in your community. (not sure if this is feasible for you - just some suggestions) is it happening in other cities also? (sorry I'm using firefox on a mac and can only see each of the page 0's on your typocity site - it won't let me bring the other pages to the front so I can read them for more info) fwiw I'll post an article on my site about it. kath -- http://www.aliak.com On 9/15/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > Friends, > > In 2002 the Typocity project (www.typocity.com) was initiated to document > typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of Bombay. Since then, many of > the old signs that we documented are slowly vanishing. However, I was most > distressed to find that some of this heritage is being destroyed by the > municipal corporation itself in the name of protecting and > restoring heritage structures. Nothing can be more absurd. > > Please follow this link to see the pictures of replaced signs and find out > more: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ Do excuse the quality of some of > the recent pictures as they were taken on the spur with a phone-camera. If > anyone has better pictures of the recently replaced Eastern Watch sign > please share it with me. > > I am desperately looking for suggestions and ideas to counter this lack of > sensitivity by the municipal corporation. I shall be very grateful for any > help. > > > Best, > Vishal > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From zainabbawa at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 14:24:45 2007 From: zainabbawa at yahoo.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 01:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <501445.37565.qm@web36104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan, Your email clearly shows that what you are interested in is a show of who has greater number of followers and who has greater strength. Why not have a physical fight instead of a list fight? I am willing to take you on if that is the case. You say: "> When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the liberty to > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi." - now if you have any sense of honesty, sincerity, and integrity, then go back to all the discussions we have had which say anything to the effect of "we love Yasin Malik and he is modern day Gandhi". Dig out one email which says this and I will bow before your lordship, without hesitation, that you are right and some of us behind these computer screens are wrong. At the end of the day brother, what you are interested in is proving yourself right and jeering at others saying that they are wrong. What kind of debate/argument/stand is this? If at the end of the day, your intention is to bring Yasin malik to the book, then there is a court of law out there, however flawed it may be. Go to the court and fight your battles there. Go, take on Yasin malik if you have the guts to. What are you trying to prove here? Why not bare yourself totally on this list saying what is it exactly that you want? No point in beating about the bush, eh? Peace be with you and peace in your heart. My sincere prayers. Zainab --- reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote: > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: How CPM blocked the screening of Taurus > (Partha Dasgupta) > 2. Re: Lists and assaults (Partha Dasgupta) > 3. Re: Lists and assaults (Pawan Durani) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:18:00 +0530 > From: "Partha Dasgupta" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the > screening of Taurus > To: "Gargi Sen" > Cc: readerlist > Message-ID: > > <32144e990709150048m3210d3b7md4d8d9955da85539 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > Dear Gargi, > > Actually, haven't figured out the acronym as yet. In > fact, figured out the > 'SAP' one only when Shuddha clarified. Was a bit > surprised to see strong > Indian patriots using Americanism. Guess some of the > virus of > intellectualism has infected them as well. > > Whether CPM or whatever, the reason a human being > has a heart and a mind is > that the folks up there felt that both were required > to have a balanced life > (though we couldn't live without either) and a > balanced decision. > > Just as I wouldn't sacrifice my children because a > tantric demands human > sacrifice, and just as I fought a group of my > friends in the frenzy of a mob > who wanted to torch a bus - I will disagree here as > well, because staying > silent is what has allowed monsters like Hitler the > freedom to make the > loudest mouth the ruler. > > When there is a scab on a wound, does one always > tear it off to force > bleeding and infection or cover it to heal? Yet, > this scab is being > scratched again and again with howls of "look, I'm > bleeding" > > I'm not qualified enough to say which hospital is > required here, but I do > know that serious help is required before our > silence lets them become the > loudest voices, and we leave our children in a > narrow, hate driven society. > > Rgds, Partha > .............. > > On 9/15/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > > > > Dear Partha, > > Leave it. To the AR2KP+VD (hope you have figured > this acronym out) bunch > > anyone claiming to be a Marxist or a communist is > a card carrying CPM > > member. To their worldview it is not possible to > be a communist and not be > > CPM (although wonder why don't they pull out the > CPI, Forward Block and the > > n number of left parties!) > > So the AR2KP bunch are trying to tell us – at > least many on the list who > > believe in free speech, even that speech that one > isn't in agreement with > > or does not like or feels uncomfortable with – > that here is your brethren > > doing exactly what you are telling us to not do. > And hence, where is your > > moral high ground? > > Let children have simple pleasures in life Partha > – even though my 5 yr > > old certainly doesn't believe in this kind of > > you're-bad-because-the-company-you-keep-is-bad > simplicity – I can live > > allowing the AR2KP+VD to have their simple > pleasures and gleeful gloating. > > It doesn't bother me what the bunch think of the > CPM, I probably think far > > worse because of very complicated and messy > history and think so with far > > more pain. > > > > We had once started to discuss on this list is > there a way to measure > > pain? Is there any measuring instrument that can > measure all our individual > > pain and see who scores the highest? As I don't > yet know of any such device > > or instrument but I am still willing to accept > that the AR2KP+VD bunch have > > been through pain, intense and undeserved pain, > unfair pain and endless > > pain. But for me to remain restricted to a > boundary circumscribed by mere > > pain, that too a pain that has been caused 17 > years ago, to continuously > > evoke that pain and use that pain to not see > anything else besides that > > pain, is to reduce that very pain to something > really terrible. > > > > And its this something-terrible that makes for > blinkered visions and > > blinkered minds. The blinkered mind of > Dritarashtra and the conscious > > blocking of vision by Gandhari led to fratricide > leading to near > > annihilation of the entire tribe/ clan/ community. > And so I continue to > > engage and debate, even if shit is being thrown > up. > > > > Nevertheless my presence on this list is simply as > someone who thinks and > > I stand guilty of their charge of an intellectual > (I can hear my friends > > fall off laughing) and so possibly what I am > saying is from the mind and > > thought-plane and not the heart and pain-plane. So > there's a gulf of > > understanding and positions, a gulf we can > possibly try to cross on this > > list, and on such lists only simply for its virtue > of being virtual. I am > > sure in real life even conversations with them > might have been impossible. > > > > Also, I am also somewhat grateful to the bunch for > provoking some of the > > best posts I have read in recent times. Shuddha's > post on Hyenas, Tarun's on > > Panditocracy, Sanjay Kak's drawing a ghoulish > picture of himself as a > > patriot, Vishal Rawlley's list of patentables are > simply brilliant and I am > > not sure these would have happened without the > AR2KP+VD. So everything > > perhaps has a purpose, however inexplicable, > however painful. > > > > Gargi > > > > > > On 9/15/07 11:54 AM, "Partha Dasgupta" > wrote: > > > > Hi, For simple people like me, do mention along > with the link why you > > posted it. I mena, do you think that blocking > screening is a good idea or > > bad? Or do you feel that the CPM is playing > supercop? Rgds, Partha On > > 9/15/07, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > > > http://cpmterror.blogspot.com/2006/11/how-cpm-blocked-screening-of-taurus.html> > > Old news from the > BBC< > > > > http://cpmterror.blogspot.com/2006/01/economic-stagnation-in-bengal.html> > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques > & Collaborations > To > > subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > === message truncated === Zainab Bawa Mumbai www.xanga.com/citybytes ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From zainabbawa at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 14:27:06 2007 From: zainabbawa at yahoo.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 01:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <159732.60991.qm@web36114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, very much. I do believe that Yasin should be brought to justice just as much as all perpetrators of violence in J&K, including the government of India. Now answer my question if you have an iota of dignity, sincerity, honesty, truth: You say: "> When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the liberty to > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi." - now if you have any sense of honesty, sincerity, and integrity, then go back to all the discussions we have had which say anything to the effect of "we love Yasin Malik and he is modern day Gandhi". Dig out one email which says this and I will bow before your lordship, without hesitation, that you are right and some of us behind these computer screens are wrong. If you cannot answer this question, then think about the consequences for yourself, including consequences from all the fifty peopple who are writing to you in your praise. Mind you, your TRP ratings and fan following are now at risk until you don't answer this question. Peace be with you and peace in your heart and mind. My sincere prayers, Zainab On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:07:55 +0530, "Pawan Durani" wrote: Do you favor him being bought to justice ? On 9/15/07, zainab wrote: Dear Pawan, Your email clearly shows that what you are interested in is a show of who has greater number of followers and who has greater strength. Why not have a physical fight instead of a list fight? I am willing to take you on if that is the case. You say: "> When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the liberty to > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi." - now if you have any sense of honesty, sincerity, and integrity, then go back to all the discussions we have had which say anything to the effect of "we love Yasin Malik and he is modern day Gandhi". Dig out one email which says this and I will bow before your lordship, without hesitation, that you are right and some of us behind these computer screens are wrong. At the end of the day brother, what you are interested in is proving yourself right and jeering at others saying that they are wrong. What kind of debate/argument/stand is this? If at the end of the day, your intention is to bring Yasin malik to the book, then there is a court of law out there, however flawed it may be. Go to the court and fight your battles there. Go, take on Yasin malik if you have the guts to. What are you trying to prove here? Why not bare yourself totally on this list saying what is it exactly that you want? No point in beating about the bush, eh? Peace be with you and peace in your heart. My sincere prayers. Zainab On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:12:01 +0530, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Dear Anamika , > > That is what I was trying to provoke the likes of Suddha , Partha and > Zainab > to think into. > > > And when I express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought to justice > , > they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. > > If my expression of resentment for a man who has made me homeless is not > acceptable in freedom of speech , I wonder what else is ? > > I would continue to drag the issue below or above the belt as long as the > terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested a button > is > needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That is a gift technology > has > given to us. > > But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. > > To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list writing to > me offline and appreciating my concern. > > Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down the line your child > may be writing the same stuff which I write now. > > Pawan > > > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and counter > replies >> ...true...that >> freedom of speech must be maintained and preserved but these...pawan and >> company drag >> it below the belt...it is so difficult to have a constructive argument >> with them.. >> >> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : >> >Rana Dasgupta wrote: >> > >> > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the > enormous >> > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to > say >> > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. > People >> > > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from >> > > violent attacks. >> > >> >I take it all back. >> >_________________________________________ >> >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >Critiques & Collaborations >> >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject >> header. >> >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: --- reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote: > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: How CPM blocked the screening of Taurus > (Partha Dasgupta) > 2. Re: Lists and assaults (Partha Dasgupta) > 3. Re: Lists and assaults (Pawan Durani) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:18:00 +0530 > From: "Partha Dasgupta" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the > screening of Taurus > To: "Gargi Sen" > Cc: readerlist > Message-ID: > > <32144e990709150048m3210d3b7md4d8d9955da85539 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > Dear Gargi, > > Actually, haven't figured out the acronym as yet. In > fact, figured out the > 'SAP' one only when Shuddha clarified. Was a bit > surprised to see strong > Indian patriots using Americanism. Guess some of the > virus of > intellectualism has infected them as well. > > Whether CPM or whatever, the reason a human being > has a heart and a mind is > that the folks up there felt that both were required > to have a balanced life > (though we couldn't live without either) and a > balanced decision. > > Just as I wouldn't sacrifice my children because a > tantric demands human > sacrifice, and just as I fought a group of my > friends in the frenzy of a mob > who wanted to torch a bus - I will disagree here as > well, because staying > silent is what has allowed monsters like Hitler the > freedom to make the > loudest mouth the ruler. > > When there is a scab on a wound, does one always > tear it off to force > bleeding and infection or cover it to heal? Yet, > this scab is being > scratched again and again with howls of "look, I'm > bleeding" > > I'm not qualified enough to say which hospital is > required here, but I do > know that serious help is required before our > silence lets them become the > loudest voices, and we leave our children in a > narrow, hate driven society. > > Rgds, Partha > .............. > > On 9/15/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > > > > Dear Partha, > > Leave it. To the AR2KP+VD (hope you have figured > this acronym out) bunch > > anyone claiming to be a Marxist or a communist is > a card carrying CPM > > member. To their worldview it is not possible to > be a communist and not be > > CPM (although wonder why don't they pull out the > CPI, Forward Block and the > > n number of left parties!) > > So the AR2KP bunch are trying to tell us – at > least many on the list who > > believe in free speech, even that speech that one > isn't in agreement with > > or does not like or feels uncomfortable with – > that here is your brethren > > doing exactly what you are telling us to not do. > And hence, where is your > > moral high ground? > > Let children have simple pleasures in life Partha > – even though my 5 yr > > old certainly doesn't believe in this kind of > > you're-bad-because-the-company-you-keep-is-bad > simplicity – I can live > > allowing the AR2KP+VD to have their simple > pleasures and gleeful gloating. > > It doesn't bother me what the bunch think of the > CPM, I probably think far > > worse because of very complicated and messy > history and think so with far > > more pain. > > > > We had once started to discuss on this list is > there a way to measure > > pain? Is there any measuring instrument that can > measure all our individual > > pain and see who scores the highest? As I don't > yet know of any such device > > or instrument but I am still willing to accept > that the AR2KP+VD bunch have > > been through pain, intense and undeserved pain, > unfair pain and endless > > pain. But for me to remain restricted to a > boundary circumscribed by mere > > pain, that too a pain that has been caused 17 > years ago, to continuously > > evoke that pain and use that pain to not see > anything else besides that > > pain, is to reduce that very pain to something > really terrible. > > > > And its this something-terrible that makes for > blinkered visions and > > blinkered minds. The blinkered mind of > Dritarashtra and the conscious > > blocking of vision by Gandhari led to fratricide > leading to near > > annihilation of the entire tribe/ clan/ community. > And so I continue to > > engage and debate, even if shit is being thrown > up. > > > > Nevertheless my presence on this list is simply as > someone who thinks and > > I stand guilty of their charge of an intellectual > (I can hear my friends > > fall off laughing) and so possibly what I am > saying is from the mind and > > thought-plane and not the heart and pain-plane. So > there's a gulf of > > understanding and positions, a gulf we can > possibly try to cross on this > > list, and on such lists only simply for its virtue > of being virtual. I am > > sure in real life even conversations with them > might have been impossible. > > > > Also, I am also somewhat grateful to the bunch for > provoking some of the > > best posts I have read in recent times. Shuddha's > post on Hyenas, Tarun's on > > Panditocracy, Sanjay Kak's drawing a ghoulish > picture of himself as a > > patriot, Vishal Rawlley's list of patentables are > simply brilliant and I am > > not sure these would have happened without the > AR2KP+VD. So everything > > perhaps has a purpose, however inexplicable, > however painful. > > > > Gargi > > > > > > On 9/15/07 11:54 AM, "Partha Dasgupta" > wrote: > > > > Hi, For simple people like me, do mention along > with the link why you > > posted it. I mena, do you think that blocking > screening is a good idea or > > bad? Or do you feel that the CPM is playing > supercop? Rgds, Partha On > > 9/15/07, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > > > http://cpmterror.blogspot.com/2006/11/how-cpm-blocked-screening-of-taurus.html> > > Old news from the > BBC< > > > > http://cpmterror.blogspot.com/2006/01/economic-stagnation-in-bengal.html> > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques > & Collaborations > To > > subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > === message truncated === Zainab Bawa Mumbai www.xanga.com/citybytes ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From pkray11 at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 14:36:11 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:36:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the screening of Taurus Message-ID: <98f331e00709150206q3aab491j3676497c93a67d7b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, It is not really a reply to your post. It is an outright refusal to hear anything from the RSS gang. One of the two links you have provided is an article by Udyan Namboodari, a so-called journalist and die hard fan of Narendra Modi. The other piece is full of lies and baseless guesses. I request you to keep your mind and senses in control and balance. Wishing you swift recovery, Prakash From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 14:58:55 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:58:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <46EB5EE1.1080909@sarai.net> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> <46EB5EE1.1080909@sarai.net> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709150228x63dd099eh54a1b02292cd9603@mail.gmail.com> Conversation thread started from> http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ Dear Shuddha, Aman, Kabi (and the additional people this is going out to) The Typocity project (documenting signage and typeface in Mumbai - www.typocity.com) has been well publicised. It was featured in the Mid Day, talked about in Time Out, DNA people know about it; it was also featured in several art and design magazines. We also conducted a number of presentations and workshops in collages and other forums. I have also personally spoken to many shop and restaurant owners about preserving their old signage (one restaurant owner even has a laminated printout of the typocity website page featuring his restaurant proudly displayed at the counter). Months of labour on the project over three years had left me exhausted. But it is now time to revisit it and take stock. Change is inevitable and no matter what you and me think, the individual proprietors will make their own aesthetic choice and pragmatic decisions. So some signs went away and I could only sigh. However what got my goti is when I rushed into the Eastern Watch shop to scold and complain to the owner for changing the sign, only to realise that it was the BMC that forced him into this. Another regret was that I had never managed to get a picture of this landmark sign because of sheer bad luck and this haunted me whenever I passed by and each time I reminded myself to do it soon, and then I saw it gone. Damn! But luckily the owner has a a photograph from 1920s (that is what he claims about the old photo I had posted. See: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ and www.easternwatch.in ) which shows the original signage. It would have been wonderful to compare this with a recent photograph of the same sign and see how immaculate it still was - in bright red colours. I noticed the sign's disappearance after I returned from a long trip abroad. I wonder whether there are others who noticed this disappearance. (The PUKAR ( www.pukar.org.in) office and the Times of India office are both a stone's throw away from Eastern Watch.) Another thing is that the recent corporate retail boom is speeding up the demise of private businesses. Old shops are becoming franchises or revamping themselves to look just like one. So along with the BMC's callousness, this has given me the impetus to revisit the Typocity project. What I need help with is in connecting with some heritage lobbyists, or better, a BMC officer who would listen. Could I use the RTI act in some way? I am very inept at submitting forms, filing applications and drafting formal letters. Government departments spook me out, but I can learn. And yes additional campaigners will surely help. When you do see a good signage, please tell the shop/ restaurant/ depot owner that what they have is precious - this is a really effective approach. Please tell them that they should never convert their bakery into a Foodland and do buy as many cakes you can from them. (The lady at American Express bakery remembers me for this. Printouts of ads from old newspapers about this 1930s institution are proudly framed even in their new branch now.) Many owners already have an attachment to the old world and all it needs is a young person to reaffirm the charm and then they can get very protective about their heritage on their own. In certain cities some nice attempts have been made to restore old signs. In Chicago, for example, the new owners try to retain the old sign even if it is not relevant to their business. A hip cafeteria will retain the sign of the clock repair shop that they have now come to occupy, and even call their cafe Clockworks Cafe. It is a crusade against indiscriminate advertising. Can Foodland be perhaps made to see some sense? Can their sign say Kayani Stores - and in small: a Foodland outlet. Couldn't it even be a nice business model, as people like to buy food from an old and trusted place. In Montreal some people are collecting old signs that have to be taken off and are trying to create a museum for these. Funds for this are collected, for now, from private donors and the storage space has been obtained for free. So if you know advertising people from the agencies that are designing the branding for Foodland and Spencer's and Farm Fresh please speak to them. If you know gallery owners or industrialists with some vacant warehouse space, please ask them if they could store some precious signs in there for a while. If through signage reform we can create an awareness about a certain ethos, then it might even impact architecture design and shop layout design and city planning! A signage movement is easier to proceed with than fighting the builders lobby. But if a certain ethos catches on then the trend followers shall simply follow. Thanks for your ideas and suggestions so far. I look forward to all the press support and any other inputs that can help this cause. I am not leading this movement; it is as much anyone's cause as mine as long as they feel the same way about signage and heritage and advertising etc. So do write in. Thanks, Vishal p.s. Shuddha, I do know about www.dafont.com and we did make digital typefaces out of some found fonts (a very tedious exercise, as not all characters of the font-set are present in the found font.) Some enthusiastic students from typography major in J J school of arts have shown a keen interest in this area and anyone else who finds a typeface they like on the Typocity website - without needing to scour the city - is free to make a font out of it. This can be an on ongoing exercise. Some people want to commercialise this whole venture - I am not very keen. My main interest is in seeing the heritage signs where they belong rather than on my screen or on a T-shirt.) On 9/15/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear Vishal, > > Many thanks for your posting on disappearing signage. As an avowed fan > of typographic curiosities I have long been an admirer of your efforts > to document the typographic diversity of Bombay. > > I share your concern about the disappearance of signage, because of the > ham handed ways in which 'heritage' is interpreted by municipal > authorities. Perhaps one thing that could be done is a small travelling > exhibition based on your work in colleges, and other arts institutions > in Bombay. And with your documentation, it should not be impossible to > convince some of the Bombay papers, say DNA or Mid Day, or even Time Out > Mumbai to publish some articles on the subject. Then maybe, the > 'heritage' lobby itself may be persuaded to step in and realize that the > typographic history of Bombay is as much a part of 'heritage' as > anything else. I am sure that there are some people from DNA and Mid Day > on this list. > > Perhaps they could come out and take this forward. I thought I would > post in reply to your post because typography is somthing that I feel > really strongly about, > > I hope that other people come up with other suggestions, > > best > > Shuddha > > > > Friends, > > > > In 2002 the Typocity project ( www.typocity.com) was initiated to > document > > typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of Bombay. Since then, > many of > > the old signs that we documented are slowly vanishing. However, I was > most > > distressed to find that some of this heritage is being destroyed by the > > municipal corporation itself in the name of protecting and > > restoring heritage structures. Nothing can be more absurd. > > > > Please follow this link to see the pictures of replaced signs and find > out > > more: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ Do excuse the quality of some > of > > the recent pictures as they were taken on the spur with a phone-camera. > If > > anyone has better pictures of the recently replaced Eastern Watch sign > > please share it with me. > > > > I am desperately looking for suggestions and ideas to counter this lack > of > > sensitivity by the municipal corporation. I shall be very grateful for > any > > help. > > > > > > Best, > > Vishal > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > From sen.gargi at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 15:20:58 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:20:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709150119m5c56d388occ8df22a4a30dad8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Partha, Pawan, Partha just so that you know and Pawan just so that you hear, once, fearlessly: Yasin Malik HAS aplogised. Publicly. At the WSF 2004 in Mumbai. And many people on this list have repeated that over and over, ad nauseum, especially Shuddha. Pawan you choose to ignore an apology by a man and insist on shouting ³but he has not even said sorry.² That is a choice you make. However, each time you lie, someone on this list, equally exhausted as me with your tireless and endless lying, will summon up the energy to tell you the truth, once again, over and over. Because your lie is dangerous. You lies can lead to death. And that is simply not allowed. Partha, the acronym stands for Aditya, Pawan, Rashneek and Khemendra coined by someone I have only met on the list ­ M Yousuf, a person whose nationality and gender is not know but who is nevertheless a comrade. He called them ARKP. I added the +VD to signify the other half of these five men: Vedvati and Dhatri. If you look at the archive you¹ll see the genesis of these silly names and games. But the lies they tell is not just childish or stupid, the lies they tell are dangerous. And so tired, exhausted, we still nail the lies. In the process I think we¹ve also had a lot of fun. Created games and archetypes. And truly taken the debate beyond the orbit of ARKP+VD into a space they can¹t reach even in their dreams, and laughed amongst ourselves even as we wear their insults with pride: SHIT, toilet cleaner, shady-shadowy (for pseudo-secular) and turned the scary mobsters into jokes. And that has been the success of this list. Gargi happy-to-be-pseudo-secular Sen On 9/15/07 1:49 PM, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Partha , I have no love for the killers or terrorists. They do NOT deserve it. > Neither do I serve Justice , but I do CRY for it. Ofcourse I have not pardoned > Yasin Malik the terrorist , and more ever he has NOT regreted any of his > killings. Regarding the "Greater Bangla " issue , i have no knowledge as of > now about it , and hence would not like to comment on that .I am not an expert > of life on everything or life on mars ....like few of the people here are. God > Bless Pawan On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi > Pawan, > > He obviously hasn't been pardoned by you. Amongst the many things > that you > told me, why not tell me one thing more that I asked - why > shouldn't I cry > out for a 'Greater Bangla' and ignore your's of J&K. > > I > see the passion and the pain, but I don't see the reason. > > Rgds, Partha > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hello Partha > , > > > > Didn't I tell you that the terrorist has not been pardoned by the > law , > > unless you chose to ignore that. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On > 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > We go back to the same loop of only looking at a part of a debate, > out > > > of it's context. > > > > > > Let me get back to where I set off from > - why don't we start agitating > > > for Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka... > > > > > > > When do we stop the killing and look after the living? > > > > > > > You talk of the constitution of India, and then rail at the ones who > > > > have been pardoned and believed by the same constitution. > > > > > > Just > because you don't believe is something or someone doesn't mean > > > everyone > else has to - UNLESS there is a reasoned argument behind that cause > > > - > and I haven't seen one as yet. > > > > > > Like I've said time and again - > show me the reason. Else, why > > > shouldn't I drown out your shouts for J&K > for my call for a 'Greater Bangla' > > > (or whatever else) just because I am > blinkered to everything else. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ......................................... > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta > parthaekka at gmail.com > wrote > > > > > > > > >>>>>>You 'ask for a terrorist to > be brought to justice' forgetting > > > > the path forged by JP in including > the outsiders and bringing them into > > > > civil society. > > > > Do you > really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye > > > > - is that > the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till the > > > > > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > Partha , > > > > We live in a country where the constitution > exists. general amnesty > > > > to all criminals ,especially terrorists is a > very dangerous thought. > > > > > > > > We can not go on and start defending > people for they are *supposed* > > > > to have been reformed [ or become > political ] . Justice has to be served for > > > > their deeds. These people > have been source of violence against innconets , > > > > and responsible for > making a race homeless. > > > > > > > > As the Pope Greogery VII had once > said and this may hold true for > > > > me ,"I have loved justice and hated > inequity; and therefore I die in exile." > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > What you have provoked me > into thinking about is how far this > > > > > "gimme" attitude will go. As a > father, I stop my youngest from doing it with > > > > > his elder siblings > since he's at the age when everything is 'mine'. > > > > > > > > > > Should I > demand back Bangladesh, since as a Bengali my roots are > > > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Pakistan, where hundreds of thousands of > > > > > > Indians have there roots? > > > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Sri > Lanka where Ram made his conquest (and it > > > > > resides in the Indian > Ocean) > > > > > > > > > > You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' > forgetting the > > > > > path forged by JP in including the outsiders and > bringing them into civil > > > > > society. > > > > > > > > > > Do you really > want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an > > > > > eye - is that the > point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till > > > > > the > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. > > > > > > > > > > > Or do we look at what the government has finally figured out - an > > > > > > 'inclusive' debate wherein concerned parties form a common consensus - which > > > > > > also cuts down the enforced mortality rate. > > > > > > > > > > Sure, > I can block you off with spam - but that would allow you to > > > > > write > whatever you want as I sit silent. The same attitude in Germany that > > > > > > allowed Hitler to come to power and destroy decades of sensibility and > > > > > > almost wipe out a tribe. I can't because I have growing children and I hope > > > > > > that they will emerge into a reasoned society instead of a > regimented one. > > > > > > > > > > You talk of the homeless because your home > was taken away. That's > > > > > personal so you care - and forget the pain of > separation in India or the > > > > > Nandigrams and dams that have caused so > much pain. > > > > > > > > > > "But the dams are for the greater good" - in > that case, wouldn't > > > > > letting peace reign in J&K be for the greater > good? > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure you have 50+ subscribers writing to you > offline, maybe > > > > > more. Good for you. If they're that proud of you, why > slide offline and > > > > > write? Keep the debate in the public forum unless > you're ashamed of your > > > > > views. > > > > > > > > > > When I wrote to > you about the Yasin Malik post, all I enquired > > > > > about was the reason > and logic of the debate you wanted to start. Since this > > > > > is not a > blog or a 'me too' mass mail, the whole point about a post here is > > > > > > to raise debate. > > > > > > > > > > Till date, though we've reached the level > of personal denigration, > > > > > we have not had a debate on the central > issue, and not a single response to > > > > > the questions I asked. > > > > > > > > > > > That you have a passion for J&K is an undeniable fact. However, > > > > > > just as I have a passion for Bengal, to present the case to you I must > base > > > > > my argument in reason and not gung-ho platitudes about heads > and hearts. > > > > > That's for polticians making a speech for elections - > while this is a forum > > > > > to discuss and debate viewpoints. > > > > > > > > > > > If you have a point and a reason, let's talk. If not, why throw up > > > > > > tons of dust in the air? Sure, it'll obfuscate the issue and drown out > > > > > > everything else and make me dirty. But you're there too, and you will > get > > > > > just as dirty. Like every other day I'll take a bath and start > off again. > > > > > > > > > > If you truly believe that you have a point that > you can get > > > > > across, then explain it and I will listen. If you stick > to loud noises then > > > > > I will make more noises so that my children > hopefully get to see an India > > > > > where reason and love form the core of > society - not hate and intolerence. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Anamika , > > > > > > > > > > > > That is what I was trying > to provoke the likes of Suddha , > > > > > > Partha and Zainab > > > > > > to > think into. > > > > > > > > > > > > When they talk about freedom of expression > , that means the > > > > > > liberty to > > > > > > portray a terrorist as a > moderan day Gandhi . > > > > > > > > > > > > And when I express my desire that > a terrorist has to be bought > > > > > > to justice , > > > > > > they find it > pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. > > > > > > > > > > > > If my > expression of resentment for a man who has made me > > > > > > homeless is not > > > > > > > acceptable in freedom of speech , I wonder what else is ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would continue to drag the issue below or above the belt as > > > > > > > long as the > > > > > > terrorist is not bought to justice. if > someone is not interested > > > > > > a button is > > > > > > needed to delete > the mail or put me on SPAM . That is a gift > > > > > > technology has > > > > > > > given to us. > > > > > > > > > > > > But if I interest you , you would > continue to read me. > > > > > > > > > > > > To put on record I have around 50 > + subscribers of readers-list > > > > > > writing to > > > > > > me offline > and appreciating my concern. > > > > > > > > > > > > Who knows, the way things > are turning , 20 years down the line > > > > > > your child > > > > > > may be > writing the same stuff which I write now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar > < > > > > > > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and > > > > > > > counter replies > > > > > > > ...true...that > > > > > > > freedom > of speech must be maintained and preserved but > > > > > > these...pawan and > > > > > > > > company drag > > > > > > > it below the belt...it is so difficult > to have a constructive > > > > > > argument > > > > > > > with them.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : > > > > > > > > >Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given the seriousness > of some of the issues at stake, and > > > > > > the enormous > > > > > > > > > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I > > > > > > have to > say > > > > > > > > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the > > > > > > > list. People > > > > > > > > > have held themselves back from > expressing outright > > > > > > disgust, or from > > > > > > > > > violent > attacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I take it all back. > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________ > > > > > > > >reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > >Critiques & > Collaborations > > > > > > > >To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject > > > > > > > > header. > > > > > > > >To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > >List > archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an > open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & > Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > with > > > > > > > subscribe in the > subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List > archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an > open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & > Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list > on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email > to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 15:33:59 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:33:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] STOP THE SHUDDHA-FECAL-TION In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709142150h77b204c1k6b70385dc915066d@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709140647m6941339atd0c5d7a1291068df@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709142150h77b204c1k6b70385dc915066d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709150303u7c0a4885p22564a882bb65a67@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, I agree with you somewhat... Sometimes a scream is better than a thesis. -Ralph Waldo Emerson Those who have suffered can speak directly form their heart, without needing to refer to historical texts and court documents. However, getting emotional can also blind ones thinking. To a mother whose decent and noble army officer son has been shot down while waiting at a bus stop (along with other innocent bystanders) cannot be persuaded that the perpetrators were "freedom fighters" and not terrorists and that her son was an "enemy agent" in a "forcibly occupied land". I am assuming for arguments sake that it is true that Kashmir is "occupied territory" and the armed conflict is between "freedom fighters" and a "brutal army". But, Pawan, could it also be that this assumption is actually the fact?! Many are enraged that their army officer brethren are being made sacrificial lambs in this war, when the only solution might be to withdraw and talk across the table?? Could it be that the Kashmiri Pandits are being used as pawns in a bigger game? It seems to me that the Kashmiri Pandits are more with Delhi now than with Kashmir. Does Kashmir have a genuine reason to fight with the state or no??? Are you willing to fight this for the sake of all Kashmiris? Or is this just a Kashmiri Muslim's war? Please ask yourself these questions and read the arguments posted by others carefully and dispassionately and you may derive something out of it. They you can direct your anger in the right direction. Do not get baited by others at the slightest provocation. Most people are interested to see the land and honour of ALL Kashmiris restored to them and put an end to the blood bath. These people are interested in this much more than forcibly keeping Kashmir with India at the cost of many lives. I request you to take a break and do some introspection. Your opponents can often give to more insights than your fan followers. You may end up realising that it is the Indian politicians that are actually your main enemy. You may also realise that you should shake that Yasin Malik's hand when he is offering it to you. You may feel much better after this. You could also start speaking to your Muslim Kashmiri brothers and sisters about fighting the injustice to Kashmir without resorting to terror. You could take the example of the Tibetan movement. The misguided need to be helped and this is what your cause perhaps should be. Whatever you decide is your wish, but hate mails to the reader-list is not helping in any way yaar! Best, Vishal On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > hello Vishal , > > I appreciate your mail. > > However I must say that people like Shuddha twist and mix up the words to > present it to support their ideas . And their discussion on a subject about > which they have only "read" and not "suffered " or "experienced" speaks a > lot about their intellectualism. > > Pawan > > > On 9/14/07, Vishal Rawlley < vishal.rawlley at gmail.com> wrote: > > > No, I don't think we need people to purge and purify this space. Jane do > > yaar, ashuddh hee theek hai. The self-appointed shit sweepers should > > absolutely stop. You guys are spreading more shit around than wiping it > > off. > > Now every post smells of turd. Smell this one and see - its all over. > > > > > > > > I would imagine that the readers of this list are intelligent enough and > > > > mature enough to decide which arguments to purchase and which to ignore. > > > > Leave the shit alone. Let it decompose by itself, its biodegradable > > after > > all. Ignore it please. If you do have a better argument or a different > > viewpoint or more information on an issue, please do share it with us: > > the > > readers. There is no point aiming it at people whose intelligence and > > logic > > you doubt. Stop lacing your counter arguments with "I do not wish to > > ridicule you, but…" "don't test my patience, [or else]…" when you do put > > > > forward your point > > > > > > > > It seems to me that the volunteer toilet cleaners are being > > opportunistic in > > using the counter arguments to the crappy comments only to brandish > > their > > own superior wit and wisdom. A self-congratulatory club is so boring, an > > > > utter waste (pun intended). You guys have created the ARKP hydra, fed it > > and > > buffered it and now it looms like a demon, foaming and fuming, over all > > of > > us. > > > > > > > > That we now have people like, first, Vedavanti and now some Kashmiri > > pandits, with very opposed viewpoints on this list, could have been such > > a > > good opportunity to converse with them. These people represent the > > viewpoint > > of certain masses and are not just standalone lunatics. Their different > > viewpoint also has a reason for existing. Can we address that? If only > > we > > were not so insensitive and didn't act prudishly, we could have engaged > > them > > more positively. Expecting carefully constructed arguments from them is > > futile. There was no need to be baited by them every time they acted > > provocatively. One could have ignored them – simple solution. But if you > > > > must take on the tough task of correcting their prejudice then > > understand > > first what you are trying to take on. It could be a very useful > > exercise. I > > personally do not have the where withal to do so, but if your toilet > > cleaners must engage them, then have bottomless patience, show some > > love, > > some Gandhigiri, handle them gently and then perhaps they would respond. > > Some of them are quite loveable and very human. They have idealism and a > > > > passion and this can all be channelised to good use. > > > > > > > > I appeal to you "intellectuals" because I hope to cut some ice here. I > > also > > appeal to the other party to show some restraint. Stop pulling out > > incidents > > from 1990 (Squadron Leader Ravi Khanna's misfortune) just to rile up > > people. > > And please, all of you, get some Sun - spending so much time in front of > > the > > screen is very unhealthy. > > > > > > > > Sorry for sounding like a moral science school teacher, but I just want > > my > > reader-list back the way it was. If someone does not take the initiative > > > > now, no amount of fumigation and sanitation will work. Its getting very > > stuffy in here, so as they say in Bombay: Havaa aane de yaar! (Let me > > some > > get air, my friend). > > > > > > > > Keep it real, > > > > Vishal Blurker > > > > > > > > p.s. And if you absolutely must regale in toilet cleaning, then please > > take > > on 'we wi' (Dhatri), that should keep you occupied for ever and ever. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 16:03:19 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:03:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70709150119m5c56d388occ8df22a4a30dad8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709150333n6fa9d5b5vdaaf0c875d6be49c@mail.gmail.com> Gargi , Has he apologiesed for HIS killings ? If he HAS , i have missed out something . Please enlighten me where he HAS apologies for HIS killings . Even if he HAS , which he HASN'T , that doesnt still wash him off his crimes. A terrorist has to be dealt by the law of the land. Pawan On 9/15/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > > Partha, Pawan, > Partha just so that you know and Pawan just so that you hear, once, > fearlessly: Yasin Malik HAS aplogised. Publicly. At the WSF 2004 in Mumbai. > And many people on this list have repeated that over and over, ad nauseum, > especially Shuddha. > > Pawan you choose to ignore an apology by a man and insist on shouting "but > he has not even said sorry." > That is a choice you make. > > However, each time you lie, someone on this list, equally exhausted as me > with your tireless and endless lying, will summon up the energy to tell you > the truth, once again, over and over. Because your lie is dangerous. You > lies can lead to death. And that is simply not allowed. > > Partha, the acronym stands for Aditya, Pawan, Rashneek and Khemendra > coined by someone I have only met on the list – M Yousuf, a person whose > nationality and gender is not know but who is nevertheless a comrade. He > called them ARKP. I added the +VD to signify the other half of these five > men: Vedvati and Dhatri. > > If you look at the archive you'll see the genesis of these silly names and > games. > > But the lies they tell is not just childish or stupid, the lies they tell > are dangerous. > > And so tired, exhausted, we still nail the lies. In the process I think > we've also had a lot of fun. Created games and archetypes. And truly taken > the debate beyond the orbit of ARKP+VD into a space they can't reach even in > their dreams, and laughed amongst ourselves even as we wear their insults > with pride: SHIT, toilet cleaner, shady-shadowy (for pseudo-secular) and > turned the scary mobsters into jokes. And that has been the success of this > list. > > Gargi happy-to-be-pseudo-secular Sen > > > > On 9/15/07 1:49 PM, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > > Partha , I have no love for the killers or terrorists. They do NOT deserve > it. Neither do I serve Justice , but I do CRY for it. Ofcourse I have not > pardoned Yasin Malik the terrorist , and more ever he has NOT regreted any > of his killings. Regarding the "Greater Bangla " issue , i have no knowledge > as of now about it , and hence would not like to comment on that .I am not > an expert of life on everything or life on mars ....like few of the people > here are. God Bless Pawan On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta < > parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > He obviously hasn't been > pardoned by you. Amongst the many things that you > told me, why not tell me > one thing more that I asked - why shouldn't I cry > out for a 'Greater > Bangla' and ignore your's of J&K. > > I see the passion and the pain, but I > don't see the reason. > > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hello Partha , > > > > Didn't I > tell you that the terrorist has not been pardoned by the law , > > unless > you chose to ignore that. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Partha > Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > We go back to the same loop of only looking at a part of a debate, out > > > > of it's context. > > > > > > Let me get back to where I set off from - why > don't we start agitating > > > for Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka... > > > > > > > When do we stop the killing and look after the living? > > > > > > You > talk of the constitution of India, and then rail at the ones who > > > have > been pardoned and believed by the same constitution. > > > > > > Just > because you don't believe is something or someone doesn't mean > > > > everyone else has to - UNLESS there is a reasoned argument behind that cause > > > > - and I haven't seen one as yet. > > > > > > Like I've said time and > again - show me the reason. Else, why > > > shouldn't I drown out your > shouts for J&K for my call for a 'Greater Bangla' > > > (or whatever else) > just because I am blinkered to everything else. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ......................................... > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < > pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Partha > Dasgupta parthaekka at gmail.com > wrote > > > > > > > > >>>>>>You 'ask for a > terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting > > > > the path forged by JP > in including the outsiders and bringing them into > > > > civil society. > > > > > Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye > > > > > - is that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, till > the > > > > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > Partha , > > > > We live in a country where > the constitution exists. general amnesty > > > > to all criminals > ,especially terrorists is a very dangerous thought. > > > > > > > > We can > not go on and start defending people for they are *supposed* > > > > to have > been reformed [ or become political ] . Justice has to be served for > > > > > their deeds. These people have been source of violence against innconets , > > > > > and responsible for making a race homeless. > > > > > > > > As the > Pope Greogery VII had once said and this may hold true for > > > > me ,"I > have loved justice and hated inequity; and therefore I die in exile." > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > What you have provoked me into thinking about is how far this > > > > > > "gimme" attitude will go. As a father, I stop my youngest from doing it > with > > > > > his elder siblings since he's at the age when everything is > 'mine'. > > > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Bangladesh, since as a > Bengali my roots are > > > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > Should I demand > back Pakistan, where hundreds of thousands of > > > > > Indians have there > roots? > > > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Sri Lanka where Ram made his > conquest (and it > > > > > resides in the Indian Ocean) > > > > > > > > > > > You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting the > > > > > > path forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into civil > > > > > > society. > > > > > > > > > > Do you really want to continue the > cycle of hate? An eye for an > > > > > eye - is that the point so that we go > on and on killing. More and more, till > > > > > the bodies pile up and all > that is left is a ravaged landscape. > > > > > > > > > > Or do we look at > what the government has finally figured out - an > > > > > 'inclusive' > debate wherein concerned parties form a common consensus - which > > > > > > also cuts down the enforced mortality rate. > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I can > block you off with spam - but that would allow you to > > > > > write > whatever you want as I sit silent. The same attitude in Germany that > > > > > > allowed Hitler to come to power and destroy decades of sensibility and > > > > > > almost wipe out a tribe. I can't because I have growing children and I > hope > > > > > that they will emerge into a reasoned society instead of a > regimented one. > > > > > > > > > > You talk of the homeless because your > home was taken away. That's > > > > > personal so you care - and forget the > pain of separation in India or the > > > > > Nandigrams and dams that have > caused so much pain.> > > > > > > > > > "But the dams are for the greater > good" - in that case, wouldn't > > > > > letting peace reign in J&K be for > the greater good? > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure you have 50+ subscribers > writing to you offline, maybe > > > > > more. Good for you. If they're that > proud of you, why slide offline and > > > > > write? Keep the debate in the > public forum unless you're ashamed of your > > > > > views. > > > > > > > > > > > When I wrote to you about the Yasin Malik post, all I enquired > > > > > > about was the reason and logic of the debate you wanted to start. Since this > > > > > > is not a blog or a 'me too' mass mail, the whole point about a > post here is > > > > > to raise debate. > > > > > > > > > > Till date, > though we've reached the level of personal denigration, > > > > > we have > not had a debate on the central issue, and not a single response to > > > > > > the questions I asked. > > > > > > > > > > That you have a passion for J&K > is an undeniable fact. However, > > > > > just as I have a passion for > Bengal, to present the case to you I must base > > > > > my argument in > reason and not gung-ho platitudes about heads and hearts. > > > > > That's > for polticians making a speech for elections - while this is a forum > > > > > > to discuss and debate viewpoints. > > > > > > > > > > If you have a point > and a reason, let's talk. If not, why throw up > > > > > tons of dust in the > air? Sure, it'll obfuscate the issue and drown out > > > > > everything else > and make me dirty. But you're there too, and you will get > > > > > just as > dirty. Like every other day I'll take a bath and start off again. > > > > > > > > > > > If you truly believe that you have a point that you can get > > > > > > across, then explain it and I will listen. If you stick to loud noises > then > > > > > I will make more noises so that my children hopefully get to > see an India > > > > > where reason and love form the core of society - not > hate and intolerence. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Anamika , > > > > > > > > > > > > That is what I was trying to > provoke the likes of Suddha , > > > > > > Partha and Zainab > > > > > > to > think into. > > > > > > > > > > > > When they talk about freedom of > expression , that means the > > > > > > liberty to > > > > > > portray a > terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi .> > > > > > > > > > > > And when I > express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought > > > > > > to justice , > > > > > > > they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my expression of resentment for a man who has made > me > > > > > > homeless is not > > > > > > acceptable in freedom of speech , > I wonder what else is ? > > > > > > > > > > > > I would continue to drag the > issue below or above the belt as > > > > > > long as the > > > > > > > terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested > > > > > > > a button is > > > > > > needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That > is a gift > > > > > > technology has > > > > > > given to us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list > > > > > > > writing to > > > > > > me offline and appreciating my concern. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down > the line > > > > > > your child > > > > > > may be writing the same stuff > which I write now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < > > > > > > > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and > > > > > > > counter replies > > > > > > > ...true...that > > > > > > > freedom of > speech must be maintained and preserved but > > > > > > these...pawan and > > > > > > > > company drag > > > > > > > it below the belt...it is so > difficult to have a constructive > > > > > > argument > > > > > > > with > them.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : > > > > > > > > >Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given > the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and > > > > > > the enormous > > > > > > > > > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I > > > > > > > have to say > > > > > > > > > I've admired the restraint of many > of the writers on the > > > > > > list. People > > > > > > > > > have held > themselves back from expressing outright > > > > > > disgust, or from > > > > > > > > > > violent attacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I take it all > back. > > > > > > > >_________________________________________ > > > > > > > > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > >Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > >To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject > > > > > > > > header. > > > > > > > >To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > >List > archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > with > > > > > > > subscribe in > the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List > archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: > an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & > Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > (9811047132) > > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 16:19:55 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:19:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709150333n6fa9d5b5vdaaf0c875d6be49c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709150119m5c56d388occ8df22a4a30dad8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709150333n6fa9d5b5vdaaf0c875d6be49c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709150349k6be59164p7f2e2e328d00dddf@mail.gmail.com> Another fact I just learnt, and hopefully another step away. I do not know the exact words that Yasin Malik had spoken at the WSF, however, had he also apologised for the killings AND shown regret for the armed forces people killed (though that particular episode was not by him), nothing would have washed him off his crimes uless you, Pawan, are also open to accepting and moving on. Just as it is absurd for anti-abortionists to kill in support of their argument, I feel it is absurd to howl for blood for the life of J&K. There has been enough blood spilt, and continues to be spilt every day.One more family loses a member and one more family gets caught up in the elevator of hate - going higher and higher till it won't make a difference because there won't be anything to come down to. Question is, at the core of your demand for J&K, what do you want? A peaceable J&K with harmony and love of ALL Kashmiri's - irrespective of Hindu, Muslim, Christian, etc OR Kill the militants and suspected militants. Let the bullets and bombs fly. Kill till anything and anyone in doubt is dead. Then stand on a blood stained land and say "I'm satisfied". Will that really take your pain away? I doubt, but even if it did, you won't have a Kashmir to go back to as everything will be destroyed by then. Rgds, Partha On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Gargi , > > Has he apologiesed for HIS killings ? If he HAS , i have missed out > something . Please enlighten me where he HAS apologies for HIS killings . > > Even if he HAS , which he HASN'T , that doesnt still wash him off his > crimes. > > A terrorist has to be dealt by the law of the land. > > Pawan > > > On 9/15/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > > > > Partha, Pawan, > > Partha just so that you know and Pawan just so that you hear, once, > > fearlessly: Yasin Malik HAS aplogised. Publicly. At the WSF 2004 in Mumbai. > > And many people on this list have repeated that over and over, ad nauseum, > > especially Shuddha. > > > > Pawan you choose to ignore an apology by a man and insist on shouting > > "but he has not even said sorry." > > That is a choice you make. > > > > However, each time you lie, someone on this list, equally exhausted as > > me with your tireless and endless lying, will summon up the energy to tell > > you the truth, once again, over and over. Because your lie is dangerous. You > > lies can lead to death. And that is simply not allowed. > > > > Partha, the acronym stands for Aditya, Pawan, Rashneek and Khemendra > > coined by someone I have only met on the list – M Yousuf, a person whose > > nationality and gender is not know but who is nevertheless a comrade. He > > called them ARKP. I added the +VD to signify the other half of these five > > men: Vedvati and Dhatri. > > > > If you look at the archive you'll see the genesis of these silly names > > and games. > > > > But the lies they tell is not just childish or stupid, the lies they > > tell are dangerous. > > > > And so tired, exhausted, we still nail the lies. In the process I think > > we've also had a lot of fun. Created games and archetypes. And truly taken > > the debate beyond the orbit of ARKP+VD into a space they can't reach even in > > their dreams, and laughed amongst ourselves even as we wear their insults > > with pride: SHIT, toilet cleaner, shady-shadowy (for pseudo-secular) and > > turned the scary mobsters into jokes. And that has been the success of this > > list. > > > > Gargi happy-to-be-pseudo-secular Sen > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07 1:49 PM, "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Partha , I have no love for the killers or terrorists. They do NOT > > deserve it. Neither do I serve Justice , but I do CRY for it. Ofcourse I > > have not pardoned Yasin Malik the terrorist , and more ever he has NOT > > regreted any of his killings. Regarding the "Greater Bangla " issue , i have > > no knowledge as of now about it , and hence would not like to comment on > > that .I am not an expert of life on everything or life on mars ....like few > > of the people here are. God Bless Pawan On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta < > > parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > He obviously hasn't been > > pardoned by you. Amongst the many things that you > told me, why not tell me > > one thing more that I asked - why shouldn't I cry > out for a 'Greater > > Bangla' and ignore your's of J&K. > > I see the passion and the pain, but I > > don't see the reason. > > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hello Partha , > > > > Didn't I > > tell you that the terrorist has not been pardoned by the law , > > unless > > you chose to ignore that. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Partha > > Dasgupta < parthaekka at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > We go back to the same loop of only looking at a part of a debate, out > > > > > of it's context. > > > > > > Let me get back to where I set off from - why > > don't we start agitating > > > for Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka... > > > > > > > > When do we stop the killing and look after the living? > > > > > > You > > talk of the constitution of India, and then rail at the ones who > > > have > > been pardoned and believed by the same constitution. > > > > > > Just > > because you don't believe is something or someone doesn't mean > > > > > everyone else has to - UNLESS there is a reasoned argument behind that cause > > > > > - and I haven't seen one as yet. > > > > > > Like I've said time and > > again - show me the reason. Else, why > > > shouldn't I drown out your > > shouts for J&K for my call for a 'Greater Bangla' > > > (or whatever else) > > just because I am blinkered to everything else. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > ......................................... > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < > > pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Partha > > Dasgupta parthaekka at gmail.com > wrote > > > > > > > > >>>>>>You 'ask for > > a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting > > > > the path forged by > > JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into > > > > civil society. > > > > > > Do you really want to continue the cycle of hate? An eye for an eye > > > > > > - is that the point so that we go on and on killing. More and more, > > till the > > > > bodies pile up and all that is left is a ravaged landscape. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > Partha , > > > > We live in a country where > > the constitution exists. general amnesty > > > > to all criminals > > ,especially terrorists is a very dangerous thought. > > > > > > > > We can > > not go on and start defending people for they are *supposed* > > > > to have > > been reformed [ or become political ] . Justice has to be served for > > > > > > their deeds. These people have been source of violence against innconets , > > > > > > and responsible for making a race homeless. > > > > > > > > As the > > Pope Greogery VII had once said and this may hold true for > > > > me ,"I > > have loved justice and hated inequity; and therefore I die in exile." > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > > What you have provoked me into thinking about is how far this > > > > > > > "gimme" attitude will go. As a father, I stop my youngest from doing it > > with > > > > > his elder siblings since he's at the age when everything is > > 'mine'. > > > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Bangladesh, since as a > > Bengali my roots are > > > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > Should I demand > > back Pakistan, where hundreds of thousands of > > > > > Indians have there > > roots? > > > > > > > > > > Should I demand back Sri Lanka where Ram made his > > conquest (and it > > > > > resides in the Indian Ocean) > > > > > > > > > > > > You 'ask for a terrorist to be brought to justice' forgetting the > > > > > > > path forged by JP in including the outsiders and bringing them into civil > > > > > > > society. > > > > > > > > > > Do you really want to continue the > > cycle of hate? An eye for an > > > > > eye - is that the point so that we go > > on and on killing. More and more, till > > > > > the bodies pile up and all > > that is left is a ravaged landscape. > > > > > > > > > > Or do we look at > > what the government has finally figured out - an > > > > > 'inclusive' > > debate wherein concerned parties form a common consensus - which > > > > > > > also cuts down the enforced mortality rate. > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I can > > block you off with spam - but that would allow you to > > > > > write > > whatever you want as I sit silent. The same attitude in Germany that > > > > > > > allowed Hitler to come to power and destroy decades of sensibility and > > > > > > > almost wipe out a tribe. I can't because I have growing children and I > > hope > > > > > that they will emerge into a reasoned society instead of a > > regimented one. > > > > > > > > > > You talk of the homeless because your > > home was taken away. That's > > > > > personal so you care - and forget the > > pain of separation in India or the > > > > > Nandigrams and dams that have > > caused so much pain.> > > > > > > > > > "But the dams are for the greater > > good" - in that case, wouldn't > > > > > letting peace reign in J&K be for > > the greater good? > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure you have 50+ subscribers > > writing to you offline, maybe > > > > > more. Good for you. If they're that > > proud of you, why slide offline and > > > > > write? Keep the debate in the > > public forum unless you're ashamed of your > > > > > views. > > > > > > > > > > > > When I wrote to you about the Yasin Malik post, all I enquired > > > > > > > about was the reason and logic of the debate you wanted to start. Since this > > > > > > > is not a blog or a 'me too' mass mail, the whole point about a > > post here is > > > > > to raise debate. > > > > > > > > > > Till date, > > though we've reached the level of personal denigration, > > > > > we have > > not had a debate on the central issue, and not a single response to > > > > > > > the questions I asked. > > > > > > > > > > That you have a passion for J&K > > is an undeniable fact. However, > > > > > just as I have a passion for > > Bengal, to present the case to you I must base > > > > > my argument in > > reason and not gung-ho platitudes about heads and hearts. > > > > > That's > > for polticians making a speech for elections - while this is a forum > > > > > > > to discuss and debate viewpoints. > > > > > > > > > > If you have a point > > and a reason, let's talk. If not, why throw up > > > > > tons of dust in the > > air? Sure, it'll obfuscate the issue and drown out > > > > > everything else > > and make me dirty. But you're there too, and you will get > > > > > just as > > dirty. Like every other day I'll take a bath and start off again. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you truly believe that you have a point that you can get > > > > > > > across, then explain it and I will listen. If you stick to loud noises > > then > > > > > I will make more noises so that my children hopefully get to > > see an India > > > > > where reason and love form the core of society - not > > hate and intolerence. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Anamika , > > > > > > > > > > > > That is what I was trying > > to provoke the likes of Suddha , > > > > > > Partha and Zainab > > > > > > > > to think into. > > > > > > > > > > > > When they talk about freedom of > > expression , that means the > > > > > > liberty to > > > > > > portray a > > terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi .> > > > > > > > > > > > And when I > > express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought > > > > > > to justice , > > > > > > > > they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my expression of resentment for a man who has made > > me > > > > > > homeless is not > > > > > > acceptable in freedom of speech , > > I wonder what else is ? > > > > > > > > > > > > I would continue to drag the > > issue below or above the belt as > > > > > > long as the > > > > > > > > terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested > > > > > > > > a button is > > > > > > needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That > > is a gift > > > > > > technology has > > > > > > given to us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list > > > > > > > > writing to > > > > > > me offline and appreciating my concern. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down > > the line > > > > > > your child > > > > > > may be writing the same stuff > > which I write now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < > > > > > > > > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and > > > > > > > > counter replies > > > > > > > ...true...that > > > > > > > freedom of > > speech must be maintained and preserved but > > > > > > these...pawan and > > > > > > > > > company drag > > > > > > > it below the belt...it is so > > difficult to have a constructive > > > > > > argument > > > > > > > with > > them.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : > > > > > > > > > >Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given > > the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and > > > > > > the enormous > > > > > > > > > > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I > > > > > > > > have to say > > > > > > > > > I've admired the restraint of many > > of the writers on the > > > > > > list. People > > > > > > > > > have held > > themselves back from expressing outright > > > > > > disgust, or from > > > > > > > > > > > violent attacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I take it all > > back. > > > > > > > >_________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > > >Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > >To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject > > > > > > > > > header. > > > > > > > >To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > >List > > archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > with > > > > > > > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List > > archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: > > an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & > > Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List > > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > (9811047132) > > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > > (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 16:32:24 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 04:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Re: ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg Message-ID: <291412.68530.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Note: forwarded message attached. --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 16:41:36 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:41:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709142143g4d53ff07s3b86f382c1a18bbe@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070911123612.15090.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> <407129.21772.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <31d5ea920709141012i7c9953e6xc01a5050e36a1003@mail.gmail.com> <46EACD73.1030004@sarai.net> <31d5ea920709141252i5acb5d1ehd5293915dd549f34@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709142143g4d53ff07s3b86f382c1a18bbe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709150411u7c9b874bl2a96f8f85b63b7f3@mail.gmail.com> Just to shake my head and work off the fuzz, would like to ponder on some points. 1. The issue of the binary in IT The basis of using the Binary Code was only & solely to signal on and off (symbolized by 0 & 1 - and not bound by it). Just as we use X & Y while working out a variable in maths. 2. The origin of zero Well, though the first know documentation of zero in the present written method was known to have happened in India, the first known usage of a symbol for zero was in Sumerian culture in Mesopotamia, some 5,000 odd years ago. Don't remember what they used to denote zero as I'd checked this out in the early 90's when I fell in love with the old Apple Mac and tried to find out all sorts of irrelevant junk. For those who're interested, am sure google will satiate your quest for the irrelevant with tons of info. 3. IPR. Considering that the Zero came from Mesopotamia, and we coined the symbol after that. We could take a cut for usage but would also have to pay quite a bit for the concept. Besides, putting a patent on 'traditional' knowledge is a very knotty issue. 4. We've all read about the attempts of patenting positions and methods in Yoga and fortunately sense creeped in outlining the concept of traditional community concept. What the 'Dai' has known about plants and herbs is slowly becoming common knowledge and benefitting many who seek an alternative to allopathy. There are tons of other wierd facts I can throw up, but I think 4 is enough for a short break that I needed from the more intense posts. Rgds, Partha PS: This is NOT meant for debate. Just a collection of amusing facts On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Saddha is a self confessed expert on Indian History , Communism , Kashmir > , > Rajtarangini , numerology and list goes on. > > On 9/15/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > > > Other things India should patent: > > > > 1. Kamasutra: > > This will make us richer every time someone has sex in any inventive > > position or with multiple partners of either sex. The missionaries can > > charge for the only position they thought of. > > > > 2. Yoga: > > This way even if someone breathes in deeply and lets it out slowly it > will > > add to our coffers. If they want to save money let them keep jogging and > > panting - might be good for those fat Americans. > > > > 3. Udan Khatola > > This flying vehicle was invented much earlier than the Wright > > bothers pop was ever born. Every airline should pay India for this. Else > > they can keep flying in hot air balloons. > > > > I am sure Dhatriji, whose brain is even sharper than Chacha Chowdhary, > can > > add many more items to this list. > > > > Patent Raj Sambhava! > > > > -Vishal > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vishal-ji, > > > > > > Excellent ! I am glad that you have seen shining light. I have also > seen > > > the shining light. Pure breeze of wisdom is now blowing on this list > > > after nightmare of last few days. With vigilant right minded > > > intellectuals like Dhatri-ji in our midst, to protect us with Santan > > > Dharma and intellectual property, we are at last in safe hands. Here > at > > > last is an intellectual who is serious about his property. > > > > > > But there is a problem. Which I am adding to the problem already > > > mentioned by you, Vishalji, in the form and shape of Roman Numerals. > > > > > > You must know 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 are also referred to as Arabic > > > Numerals. And this is a real serious problem. Now we must do something > > > about these evil arabic numbers. After you have pointed out the danger > > > posed to us by Roman numerals, I have become very vigilant about > arabic > > > numerals also. I smell a Vatican-Jihadist conspiracy to decimate us. > Oh, > > > davati-deva, even the decimals are a Roman plot. And if you think of > the > > > fact that the space between any two real numbers are taken by infinite > > > fractions then the mind and the bank account of sanatan akhand bharata > > > varsha truly begins to boggle. > > > > > > I have heard it said that these arabic numerals are actually hindu > > > numerals. But since a number is not a vivadit sthal, a disputed > > > structure, we cannot pull down one number and try and build another in > > > its place, as we did with the Shri Ramjanmabhoomi Mandir (Lord Rama > > > Birthplace Temple). And how many numbers shall we pull down, and how > > > many numbers shall we build. Yugas and Kalpas will pass even before we > > > have reached a respectable few billion. This is a problem, other wise > we > > > could have proposed an all india Hindu Number Liberation Struggle. > What > > > to do. What to do. What to do. > > > > > > Does this mean that the descendents and camp followers of those > mlecchas > > > who Dhatriji has accused of ruling roost over Bharat Bhoomi will > > > completely walk out of the patent treasury loaded, and use their ill > > > gotten arabic numeral induced gain to convert yet more hindus, and > then > > > what will happen to hinduism, i mean hindooism, with the double > > > barrelled zero in the midle, will it become a big zero? Is that what > we > > > mean by Nada Brahma. He Bhagwan. And all this will happen because our > > > traitor left handed intellectual class did not warning us in advance > > > about the danger of patenting zero and the danger of not patenting > > > zero.They are cheating not only in history,geography and mythology but > > > in mathematics also. I think this is known as a zero sum game. > > > > > > At least the Buddhists are able to make some capital out of their > > > cunning philosophical concept of shunyata (or zero-ism) but us Hindus, > > > we do not even have zeroism, we have dualities (dvaita) qualified > > > dualities, and to top it all we have non-duality (advaita) that is > > > actually infinity, and which are all totally useless in a commercial > > > context and from the point of view of national economic growth because > > > every infinity can be made paradoxically more as well as less infinite > > > by the addition of an evil arabic number after it. So what will we do > > > when we are reduced to zero? Infinity will be of no help to us. Not > even > > > Infinity Foundation which is doing so much good in Amerika-Dham by > > > flying the flag of Dharma will be of any use. Hai Deva, Hai Rama, Hai > > > Aryabhatta, Hai Hai, Hai Hai. > > > > > > Vishaal ji, do you have any way out of this serious dilemma? I am > > > reduced to nothing. You are vishaal, you are infinite, you are sarve > > > sarva. Tell us, guide us, lead us. Shall we request Pravinji Togadiaji > > > of Vishwa Hindu Parishad to propose a Vishwavyapi (world wide) > campaign > > > to ban all Arabic and Roman Numerals. Or should we ask for this > campaign > > > to remain confined to national level only. Is this happening because > of > > > globalization? And what will happen to our rising power, backed by > > > binary number and computerization if we drop this arabic one, this > evil > > > aaleph from the binary duet of one and zero. Why are our patriotic > > > computer scientists not building computers based only on pure santan > > > mathematical concept of unity in infinity. We must do something, > > anything. > > > > > > I remain > > > > > > Shunya Shuddha > > > > > > Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > > > > > > Dhatri-ji said: > > > > > > > > " --On 0, > > > > ... > > > > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members > > > aware > > > > that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva > > > pact. Under > > > > this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and > > > applicable > > > > to India? Let me explain more scientifically. > > > > Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers > > > operate on > > > > "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim > > and > > > get > > > > Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO > > > Pact > > > > should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > > > NUCLEAR, > > > > MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever > > > COMPUTERISED > > > > automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not uses > > > minimal > > > > charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to use 0 > > for > > > > general purposes. It depends again." > > > > > > > > I say: > > > > Why no response by any "intellectual" on this question of "0" > > > importance??? > > > > > > > > But Dhatri saahab, if we patent "0" and charge for its usage, won't > > > people > > > > give us a "0" amount in return?? They will say:"scientifically" > > > speaking, we > > > > have only zero to offer in return of a zero! > > > > > > > > These Indians, I tell you, they are smart but they do not know how > to > > > profit > > > > from their smartness, we shall therefore remain poor only, alas. Hai > > > Rama. > > > > > > > > Now if we had invented I, II, III, V, X, XX, XXX, L, M etc. as the > > smart > > > > Romans did, then we should most defenitely have patented all those > and > > > > charged IIIVXXXLM.... amounts for each single use and then we would > > have > > > > been a super power already and Akhand Bharat could have been a > > > reality!!! > > > > > > > > Now I hope no Romans read this and use this idea against us. Then, > for > > > > example, each student going to standard IV might have to pay IV > > > Euros to > > > > them. That will surely ruin our education system. No? Then only the > > > children > > > > in 'chauthi kaksha' (fourth grade) from hindi medium schools would > be > > > able > > > > to afford education, as they never even used the IV notation! Maybe, > > > that > > > > will turn out to be a good thing after all! Hindi is really > suffering > > in > > > > this country and so are all the regional languages. What say? > > > > > > > > Jai Hind!!! > > > > > > > > -Vishal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/12/07, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > >>Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, > > > >> > > > >>Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from > > Gujarat > > > >>. If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, Dhatri == > > > >>Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother Earth. If you > have > > > >>patience to look at these terms just go through the entire link or > > just > > > fire > > > >>a find (Cntl+F) and type these terms over there. > > > >> > > > >>http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm > > > >> > > > >>To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - > > > >> > > > >>I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh > > > parishaths, > > > >>Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. India HINDU comes > > > first > > > >>and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen of India, Valid Passport > > > holder, > > > >>It's my Constitutional right to vote as per my choice and > live. Those > > > all > > > >>who never completed schooling and aware of India > > > >>Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices to > > > >>enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. > > > >> > > > >>Focusing on the topic now, > > > >> > > > >>What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing converse > > logic > > > >>and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. > > > >> > > > >>>If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in the > > > >same > > > >> > > > >>month as India, so perhaps they might reply by dispatching some >of > > them > > > >>into India if India goes for hot chases, surgical strikes, >masala > > > dosas, > > > >>bhel pooris etc. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like India). > > > >> > > > >>Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical > > > >> > > > >>Induction,on Junaid statement > > > >>"Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" > > > >> > > > >>so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not move > > out > > > of > > > >>their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how > > > >>India can execute it later. > > > >> > > > >>--Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier > > > >> > > > >>Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata > > > >>Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham > > > >>TRANSLATION > > > >>Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata, > and > > a > > > >>rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! > > > >>OR > > > >>Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O > > > >>descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that > > > time I > > > >>descend myself. > > > >>So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple understanding > is > > > the > > > >>9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more remaining to come. The > > > followers > > > >>of Buddhism now misunderstood it. > > > >> > > > >>--And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to the > > > world > > > >>or a bunch of people like you. What to do if people/countries like > you > > > are > > > >>betraying then bullying is the last sort of option. I don't know > how > > > many > > > >>of the readers aware of this but happy to quote from the first Para > of > > > the > > > >>post > > > >> > > > >>--Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth > > > >> > > > > > > http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business > > > >> > > > >>--On 0, > > > >>Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, > > > >>understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and > joviality > > > >>(professor student) and your will in favor/against PATENTING and IPR > > is > > > >>nothing to do with the practicalities. You may say that > countries/you > > > can > > > >>use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN WAY. No problem you/countries > can > > > write > > > >>whatever the way they wish to use. > > > >> > > > >> I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members > > > aware > > > >>that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva > > > pact. Under > > > >>this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and > > > applicable > > > >>to India? Let me explain more scientifically. > > > >>Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers > > operate > > > >>on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India > > claim > > > and > > > >>get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of > > WTO > > > >>Pact should take the permission from India to operate their > > ELECTRICAL, > > > >>NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or > > whatever > > > >>COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India > may/may > > > not > > > >>uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow > > countries > > > to > > > >>use 0 for general purposes. It depends again. > > > >> > > > >>Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear > > > dispatch, > > > >>for moving them people need INDIA permission. > > > >> > > > >>We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and need > a > > > >>motivated, will powered political system to execute this. This is > > > feasible > > > >>99%. > > > >> > > > >>Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. > > > >> > > > >>--On points 1,2,3 > > > >>You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and Sadhus > > > Shri > > > >>Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). Because they > are > > > all > > > >>sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You will never compare them > > > with > > > >>Aurangazeb. > > > >>For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its boarders > > from > > > >>Alexander to British > > > >>1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha > > > >>2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka > > > >>3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra > > > >>4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana > > > >> > > > >>For your better understanding > > > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age > > > >>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>-- On points 4,5 > > > >>Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your writing > are > > in > > > >>genuine, I request you to please > > > >> > > > >>1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond > > > >>2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne > > > >> > > > >>-- On points 6,7,8 > > > >>Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna daughter > > is > > > >>dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it till her > teenage > > > >>(before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. |This is the fact and > > for > > > your > > > >>kind information. I pity for Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah > > > sister > > > >>who migrated to Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND > > KASHMIR > > > is > > > >>an Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from > > > Pakistan > > > >>and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid or like > > > >>personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to vacate peaks > > > occupied > > > >>and offered. > > > >>Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive > India > > is > > > >>ready welcome the kid. > > > >> > > > >>Regards, > > > >>Dhatri. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>--------------------------------- > > > >>Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your > > story. > > > >>Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > > >>_________________________________________ > > > >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >>Critiques & Collaborations > > > >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >>subscribe in the subject header. > > > >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >>List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 16:50:23 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:50:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lost River (a journo piece on martyrs day) Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709150420h5b72ff31u118687013080073f@mail.gmail.com> Lost River (a journo piece on martyrs day) By NEERAJ SANTOSHI KHAR As this poet and frontline leader of Kashmiri Pandits was offering prayers on the banks of Chandrabhaga (Chenab) at Akhnoor here, in a sudden rush of emotions, he began to ponder on intangibles that Pandits have lost in exile. ``The intangibles that are generally not recognised- the mulberry tree in the compound of my house at Sathu Barbarshah, the window through which I used to see this Mulberry tree in the backdrop of beautiful Vitasta river, the view of the magnificent Shankaracharya hill, which is now called Koh-e-Sulaiman, the evenings spent on the shores of Vitasta contemplating and discussing philosophy and literature with friends, the sweet hum of the nearby temple bell, the sudden sound of snow falling from the tin-roof tops... '', said Agnishekhar, author of poetry collection Muj Se Csheen Lee Gayi Meri Nadi (My River Was Taken Away From Me) and president of Panun Kashmir, the frontline Kashmiri Pandit organisation. ``They (government )can give me a house, land and replace everything I have lost, but can they give me back, my Mulberry tree, my window, the view of Vitasta and Shankaracharya hill, which played a key role in shaping my sensibilities'', said Agnishekhar, with a distant look in his moist eyes. Agnishekhar shared his feelings after the function organised by PK on the banks of Chenab, about 30 kms from Jammu, on the occasion of Martyrs Day to offer prayers for the peace to those who fell to the militant bullets in early 1990s and to those who later succumbed to wrath of sun and various diseases in the hot plains. ``Why I come to the shores of Chandrabhaga is because somewhere in the back of mind I feel that this river, which joins Vitasta (Jehlum) in Pakistan, will also share my agony, pain, concerns and apprehensions with my own river, Vitasta, that continues to flow in my veins, in my roots, in my very marrow'', said Agnishekhar, who immersed the first copy of his poetry collection Muj Se Csheen Lee Gayi Meri Nadi (My River Was Taken Away From Me, 1997) into the emerald waters of Vitasta at Habba Kadal in Srinagar. Fifty two year old writer, who is author of four books, stressed that it is because of these reasons that he decided to launch a movement for creation of a separate homeland, where nobody can ``take away anything from us that we have been nurturing for last 5000 years''. ``As I was offering prayers amidst the chanting of hymns from Geeta, I was thinking that the greatest tragedy with Pandits is that even though their home is just 300 kms away, but the memories of that land now seem memories of some past life. Efforts are being made even to efface our history by deliberate distortions and change in the nomenclature of our places of belonging. It is painful to see one's own community fast moving towards `manufactured extinction'. It is very painful to realize that even the memory of our motherland is being made to fade away slowly in many subtle ways'', said Agnishekhar whose world of poetry revolves around the trauma of exile, persecution, nostalgia, struggle and out-right rejection of forces inimical to the survival of his exiled community. Agnishekhar summed up his feelings by quoting few lines from Duane Locke's poem `Lost River', ``She combed the sand/ Of the twisted dry riverbed/ Wrinkles from the water now gone remained/ On the flesh-pink bottom, undressed sand./ She stroked with the comb of her mind the sedimented expanse…..''. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 17:01:10 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 04:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <411645.31741.qm@web45505.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: I am proud to be hindu, it makes me tolerent, but not impotent, it makes me clever but not coward, that I tolerate does not mean that I am quiet, I plan to annihilate the opponents with my sama ,dana, bheda and finally danda, as dandam dashagunam bhaveth. I foresee the future where hindus divided by divisive politics unite together out of the caste and class conundrums, as the political parties wake up from their selfish greedy approach to seek power by part time appeasement in the guise of "secular" rule has created more discrimination than good rule of law. Next generation is ready now and is waiting for a leader and chanakyas India, that is my hindustan has all novel ideas of his, to conquer the evil for good of the society. ----- Original Message ----- From: we wi Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:17 pm Subject: ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, > > Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from > Gujarat . If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, > Dhatri == Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother > Earth. If you have patience to look at these terms just go > through the entire link or just fire a find (Cntl+F) and type > these terms over there. > > http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm > > To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - > > I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh > parishaths, Madras’s and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. > India HINDU comes first and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen > of India, Valid Passport holder, It’s my Constitutional right to > vote as per my choice and live. Those all who never completed > schooling and aware of India > Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices > to enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. > > Focusing on the topic now, > > What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing > converse logic and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. > >If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in > the >same month as India, so perhaps they might reply by > dispatching some >of them into India if India goes for hot chases, > surgical strikes, >masala dosas, bhel pooris etc. > > > > YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like > India). > > Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical > > Induction,on Junaid statement > “Pakistani nuclear weapons won’t reach US democrat” > > so as the same will be true and applicable that “they will not > move out of their depots wherever they are”. I will prove it how > India can execute it later. > > --Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier > > Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata > Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham > TRANSLATION > Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O > Bharata, and a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! > OR > Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, > O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at > that time I descend myself. > So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple > understanding is the 9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more > remaining to come. The followers of Buddhism now misunderstood > it. > > --And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to > the world or a bunch of people like you. What to do if > people/countries like you are betraying then bullying is the last > sort of option. I don’t know how many of the readers aware of > this but happy to quote from the first Para of the post > > --Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth > > http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business > --On 0, > Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, > understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and > joviality (professor student) and your will in favor/against > PATENTING and IPR is nothing to do with the practicalities. You > may say that countries/you can use 0 as “orez” in your/their OWN > WAY. No problem you/countries can write whatever the way they > wish to use. > > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the > members aware that except a few all countries signed WTO Free > trade Geneva pact. Under this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. > How is this useful and applicable to India? Let me explain more > scientifically. Hitech world use computers day-to-day life > everywhere. Computers operate on “bit”. A bit is nothing but a > binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get Patenting and IPR > over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact should > take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or > whatever COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, > India may/may not uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind > enough to allow countries to use 0 for general purposes. It > depends again. > > Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear > dispatch, for moving them people need INDIA permission. > > We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and > need a motivated, will powered political system to execute this. > This is feasible 99%. > > Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. > > --On points 1,2,3 > You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and > Sadhus Shri Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). > Because they are all sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You > will never compare them with Aurangazeb. > For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its > boarders from Alexander to British > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka > 3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra > 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana > > For your better understanding > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > -- On points 4,5 > Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your > writing are in genuine, I request you to please > > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne > > -- On points 6,7,8 > Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna > daughter is dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it > till her teenage (before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. > |This is the fact and for your kind information. I pity for > Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah sister who migrated to > Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR is an > Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from > Pakistan and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid > or like personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to > vacate peaks occupied and offered. > Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive > India is ready welcome the kid. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > --------------------------------- > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your > story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 17:12:34 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 17:12:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the screening of Taurus In-Reply-To: <98f331e00709150206q3aab491j3676497c93a67d7b@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00709150206q3aab491j3676497c93a67d7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709150442q3e1a077etbeee61253e08acfd@mail.gmail.com> Is being a fan of Modi a crime ? On 9/15/07, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > It is not really a reply to your post. It is an outright refusal to hear > anything from the RSS gang. One of the two links you have provided is an > article by Udyan Namboodari, a so-called journalist and die hard fan of > Narendra Modi. The other piece is full of lies and baseless guesses. I > request you to keep your mind and senses in control and balance. > > Wishing you swift recovery, > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 17:33:51 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 17:33:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <32144e990709150447n677eac8ei3e21aeaf08b4b540@mail.gmail.com> References: <411645.31741.qm@web45505.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990709150447n677eac8ei3e21aeaf08b4b540@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709150503u62f0f22ap14f0ea3cdd72e82b@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Fascinating read about the origin of zero. And I was wrong about India first using the symbol of zero in it's curent form. India used a dot to signify zero while the Chinese used the open circle that we use today. Of course, we can dismiss it as 'misinformation by foreign hand' if it's inconvenient, so don't worry. Rgds, Partha ................................ On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Dear Dhatri, > > I'm proud to be a Hindu, but before that I'm proud to be an Indian. > > You'd probably not count me as a Hindu (and therefore not an Indian) as > I'm married to a Christian. And I will not apologise as I married a > wonderful human being whom I'm very proud of. I did not marry her caste or > religion. For that matter, I don't care what relegion my children follow as > long as they grow up to be good human beings. > > I do hope that you do not exclude all but Hindu's in India... and then > move on to push out every one but brahmins. > > India was not won only by Hindu's. And do try and remember that tribals > are not Hindu's. They follow yakshas and yakshi's and not the trinity of > Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva which happens to be the definition of a Hindu. > > You claim to be proud of India and in the same breath knock the elected > representatives of India. > > Do look at facts. Do look at how you keep contradicting yourself time and > again. > > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/15/07, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: I am proud to be hindu, it makes me > > tolerent, but not impotent, it makes me clever but not coward, that I > > tolerate does not mean that I am quiet, I plan to annihilate the opponents > > with my sama ,dana, bheda and finally danda, as dandam dashagunam bhaveth. I > > foresee the future where hindus divided by divisive politics unite together > > out of the caste and class conundrums, as the political parties wake up from > > their selfish greedy approach to seek power by part time appeasement in the > > guise of "secular" rule has created more discrimination than good rule of > > law. Next generation is ready now and is waiting for a leader and chanakyas > > India, that is my hindustan has all novel ideas of his, to conquer the evil > > for good of the society. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: we wi > > Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:17 pm > > Subject: ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, > > > > > > Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from > > > Gujarat . If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, > > > Dhatri == Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother > > > Earth. If you have patience to look at these terms just go > > > through the entire link or just fire a find (Cntl+F) and type > > > these terms over there. > > > > > > http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm > > > > > > To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - > > > > > > I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh > > > parishaths, Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. > > > India HINDU comes first and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen > > > of India, Valid Passport holder, It's my Constitutional right to > > > vote as per my choice and live. Those all who never completed > > > schooling and aware of India > > > Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices > > > to enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. > > > > > > Focusing on the topic now, > > > > > > What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing > > > converse logic and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. > > > >If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in > > > the >same month as India, so perhaps they might reply by > > > dispatching some >of them into India if India goes for hot chases, > > > surgical strikes, >masala dosas, bhel pooris etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like > > > India). > > > > > > Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical > > > > > > Induction,on Junaid statement > > > "Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" > > > > > > so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not > > > move out of their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how > > > India can execute it later. > > > > > > --Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier > > > > > > Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata > > > Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham > > > TRANSLATION > > > Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O > > > Bharata, and a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! > > > OR > > > Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, > > > O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at > > > that time I descend myself. > > > So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple > > > understanding is the 9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more > > > remaining to come. The followers of Buddhism now misunderstood > > > it. > > > > > > --And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to > > > the world or a bunch of people like you. What to do if > > > people/countries like you are betraying then bullying is the last > > > sort of option. I don't know how many of the readers aware of > > > this but happy to quote from the first Para of the post > > > > > > --Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth > > > > > > > > http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business > > > --On 0, > > > Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, > > > understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and > > > joviality (professor student) and your will in favor/against > > > PATENTING and IPR is nothing to do with the practicalities. You > > > may say that countries/you can use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN > > > WAY. No problem you/countries can write whatever the way they > > > wish to use. > > > > > > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the > > > members aware that except a few all countries signed WTO Free > > > trade Geneva pact. Under this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. > > > How is this useful and applicable to India? Let me explain more > > > scientifically. Hitech world use computers day-to-day life > > > everywhere. Computers operate on "bit". A bit is nothing but a > > > binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get Patenting and IPR > > > over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact should > > > take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > > > NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or > > > whatever COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, > > > India may/may not uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind > > > enough to allow countries to use 0 for general purposes. It > > > depends again. > > > > > > Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear > > > dispatch, for moving them people need INDIA permission. > > > > > > We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and > > > need a motivated, will powered political system to execute this. > > > This is feasible 99%. > > > > > > Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. > > > > > > --On points 1,2,3 > > > You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and > > > Sadhus Shri Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). > > > Because they are all sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You > > > will never compare them with Aurangazeb. > > > For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its > > > boarders from Alexander to British > > > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha > > > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka > > > 3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra > > > 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana > > > > > > For your better understanding > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age > > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > > > > > > > -- On points 4,5 > > > Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your > > > writing are in genuine, I request you to please > > > > > > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond > > > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne > > > > > > -- On points 6,7,8 > > > Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna > > > daughter is dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it > > > till her teenage (before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. > > > |This is the fact and for your kind information. I pity for > > > Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah sister who migrated to > > > Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR is an > > > Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from > > > Pakistan and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid > > > or like personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to > > > vacate peaks occupied and offered. > > > Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive > > > India is ready welcome the kid. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your > > > story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user > > panel and lay it on us. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > From zainabbawa at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 18:03:04 2007 From: zainabbawa at yahoo.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 05:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709150416p6a5b85deq408ce8a1aee440e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <944043.99704.qm@web36110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan, My prayers for you are sincere because from my experiences in Kashmir, I have realized that hate and anger take a person nowhere. Building walls and refusing to see are very easy. It is being able to talk with each other with sincerity in intent that is excruciatingly difficult. I have myself faced hurt and betrayal in Kashmir but that does not come in my way of seeing the reality in Kashmir. Just as you are in exile, I live in a state of emotional exile from the Valley which I consider home too. Yet, I cannot allow my emotions to blind me, to build walls and not see the truth. You have as yet not responded to my question: "You say: "When they talk about freedom of expression that means the liberty to portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi." - now if you have any sense of honesty, sincerity, and integrity, then go back to all the discussions we have had which say anything to the effect of "we love Yasin Malik and he is modern day Gandhi". Dig out one email which says this and I will bow before your lordship, without hesitation, that you are right and some of us behind these computer screens are wrong." I am waiting to be humbled. Peace be with you and peace in your heart and peace in my heart. My sincere prayers. Zainab --- Pawan Durani wrote: > Thank you for your prayers ........ > > On 9/15/07, Zainab Bawa > wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > Your email clearly shows that what you are > interested > > in is a show of who > > has greater number of followers and who has > greater > > strength. Why not have > > a physical fight instead of a list fight? I am > willing > > to take you on if > > that is the case. > > > > You say: "> When they talk about freedom of > expression > > , that means the > > liberty to > portray a terrorist as a moderan day > > Gandhi." - now if you > > have any sense of honesty, sincerity, and > integrity, > > then go back to all > > the discussions we have had which say anything to > the > > effect of "we love > > Yasin Malik and he is modern day Gandhi". Dig out > one > > email which says this > > and I will bow before your lordship, without > > hesitation, that you are right > > and some of us behind these computer screens are > > wrong. At the end of the > > day brother, what you are interested in is proving > > yourself right and > > jeering at others saying that they are wrong. What > > kind of > > debate/argument/stand is this? > > > > If at the end of the day, your intention is to > bring > > Yasin malik to the > > book, then there is a court of law out there, > however > > flawed it may be. Go > > to the court and fight your battles there. Go, > take on > > Yasin malik if you > > have the guts to. What are you trying to prove > here? > > Why not bare yourself > > totally on this list saying what is it exactly > that > > you want? No point in > > beating about the bush, eh? > > > > Peace be with you and peace in your heart. My > sincere > > prayers. > > > > Zainab > > > > > > --- reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote: > > > > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide > Web, > > > visit > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or > body > > > 'help' to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so > it > > > is more specific > > > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Re: How CPM blocked the screening of > Taurus > > > (Partha Dasgupta) > > > 2. Re: Lists and assaults (Partha Dasgupta) > > > 3. Re: Lists and assaults (Pawan Durani) > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:18:00 +0530 > > > From: "Partha Dasgupta" > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the > > > screening of Taurus > > > To: "Gargi Sen" > > > Cc: readerlist > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > <32144e990709150048m3210d3b7md4d8d9955da85539 at mail.gmail.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > > > > > Dear Gargi, > > > > > > Actually, haven't figured out the acronym as > yet. In > > > fact, figured out the > > > 'SAP' one only when Shuddha clarified. Was a bit > > > surprised to see strong > > > Indian patriots using Americanism. Guess some of > the > > > virus of > > > intellectualism has infected them as well. > > > > > > Whether CPM or whatever, the reason a human > being > > > has a heart and a mind is > > > that the folks up there felt that both were > required > > > to have a balanced life > > > (though we couldn't live without either) and a > > > balanced decision. > > > > > > Just as I wouldn't sacrifice my children because > a > > > tantric demands human > > > sacrifice, and just as I fought a group of my > > > friends in the frenzy of a mob > > > who wanted to torch a bus - I will disagree here > as > > > well, because staying > > > silent is what has allowed monsters like Hitler > the > > > freedom to make the > > > loudest mouth the ruler. > > > > > > When there is a scab on a wound, does one always > > > tear it off to force > > > bleeding and infection or cover it to heal? Yet, > > > this scab is being > > > scratched again and again with howls of "look, > I'm > > > bleeding" > > > > > > I'm not qualified enough to say which hospital > is > > > required here, but I do > > > know that serious help is required before our > > > silence lets them become the > > > loudest voices, and we leave our children in a > > > narrow, hate driven society. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > .............. > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Gargi Sen > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Partha, > > > > Leave it. To the AR2KP+VD (hope you have > figured > > > this acronym out) bunch > > > > anyone claiming to be a Marxist or a communist > is > > > a card carrying CPM > > > > member. To their worldview it is not possible > to > > > be a communist and not be > > > > CPM (although wonder why don't they pull out > the > > > CPI, Forward Block and the > > > > n number of left parties!) > > > > So the AR2KP bunch are trying to tell us â€" > at > > > least many on the list who > > > > believe in free speech, even that speech that > one > > > isn't in agreement with > > > > or does not like or feels uncomfortable with > â€" > > > that here is your brethren > > > > doing exactly what you are telling us to not > do. > > > And hence, where is your > > > > moral high ground? > > > > Let children have simple pleasures in life > Partha > === message truncated === Zainab Bawa Mumbai www.xanga.com/citybytes ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 18:07:22 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 05:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Regarding India Map #2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <832540.92860.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Martin Gray wrote: Dhatri, I see what you mean. My map of India does indeed need to be corrected. I will not be able to do this until a few days after October 15 since I will be away from Sedona, Arizona, where I live, presenting several slide shows around the states. Thank you for alerting me to this matter. Sincerely, Martin Gray SacredSites.com --------------------------------- From: we wi Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:24:47 -0700 (PDT) To: Martin Gray Subject: Re: Regarding India Map Martin, Jammu and Kashmir of India should be like this. Please find the attachment. Regards, Dhatri. Martin Gray wrote: Tell me which parts. --------------------------------- From: we wi Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 05:07:01 -0700 (PDT) To: , , Subject: Regarding India Map Hi Martin, Could you please correct the India Map. Some parts of Jammu and Kashmir of India are mistakenly joined into Pakistan and China. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 18:26:10 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 05:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Dont know What to say but... Message-ID: <481929.64702.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Readers, The comments from Partha,Gargi and Zainab are unacceptable. Partha --- having his own logic, great personality instead of thiking about INDIA, thinking about germany, peace of life there and hitler. Gargi --- on ARKP+VD postings are lies and views are childish. What is lie? Except the society we are trying to built upon everything is the BLODY TRUTH. One must have guts to accept,digest and then visualise. Zaina-- Dont dream about Indian government prosecution. You are not an almighty. and Pawans feeling about living in exile should be noticeble and addressed. As per me Pawan is living like me like anybody like any Patriotic Indian. --on 0 I expect the debate should go on on on, The day should come that IPR/PATENTS should be filed under GATT/WTO pacts and world should accect. Jai hind, Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 18:56:50 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer In-Reply-To: <46E83C18.4050108@sarai.net> Message-ID: <214127.82974.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddhabrata Your mail is addressed to me as an individual and therefore I shall equally courteously respond. Soon after though, in another mail you revert to "let us bunch them together" routine. It is interesting that some people who celebrate an individual's freedoms and thereby an individual's identity in this "intellectual community" should so readily chorus the "I see a mob, I see a mob, attack the mob" shouts irrespective of how varied the opinions, positions and arguments might be. Pick up one issue over which there might be strong disagreements and on that basis dismiss all else about anyone who might even remotely suggest himself/herself not subscribing to your views on any topic. Demonise them. No good should be seen in the devils by anyone, so cloud the scene with "They are a mob; They are a mob; Everyone must attack the mob". It was interesting to see someone like Rahul Asthana also (who in my opinion is one of the "decent" correspondents on this list) get clubbed (not by you) with the "mob" because he might have disagreed over some issue. "Rahul is a part of them, Rahul is a part of the mob, beware, you must see Rahul as part of the mob". Amusing. I see all of this as "intellectual cowardice" and a lack of "intellectual ethics". Those who find it convenient to see a "mob" end up becoming a "mob". It is sad because it includes some extremely sharp and bright intellect. Individual intellect however always sacrifices itself to the psyche of the "mob". Let me come to what your mail was essentially about. - Naeem asked a question in the room - I did not see Naeem receiving an answer in the room - Shuddha says he answered Naeem in private and explains why he did so - No one in the room saw Naeem receive an answer in public for a question he asked in public - As far as any member (including me) of the room is concerned, Naeem did not receive an answer. So Shuddha, there is no assumption on my part as far as that domain is concerned where the question was asked and where no answer was given. I am just a simple minded Horatio of simple philosophies of the apparent. Actually Shuddha, you of all the people should be able to appreciate that. I remember the rather facile but the distinctinctness and separateness with which you sought to aggressively define "public" and "private" spaces. I wonder now who should be the candidate for your threatening admonition of "watch it" and the pomposity in "...makes you (more than occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish." Shuddha your comment about me "Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions" might sound very telling but does not make me cringe (if it was meant to) simply because I was very interested in seeing what answers Naeem would receive. For me, the answers to that question from a "neutral" observer would only add perspectives to the discussion about "what" or "are there any at all" limits that can be considered for "individual" or "collective" freedom of expression. Thank you Shuddha for posting your response to Naeem. I saw the most significant part of your response in your words: """""" In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I would be willing to endorse the censorship of. My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people from watching them. If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above.""""""" You have very clearly given the examples and the reasoning. You have for one set of cases used the evaluating principle of "...... there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" Could hardly be put better. So, although both "regulation" and "censorship" may be restrictive of the individual's right to freedom of expression or of that of the collective, yet have to be taken on board as possible necessities for a variety of reasons in a variety of situations. Both "regulation" and "censorship" cannot be an "open licence". The areas where they can be applied, the bases of application and the extent of application has to be extremely carefully thought about. Without any doubt (in my mind), the "regulatory" or "censoring" actions have to be sincere, honest, should not over-step the allowed briefs and not seek to serve hidden agendas. Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" Shuddha, if my comments over your mail to Naeem seem like they misrepresent you, please do tell me (if you feel like doing so). Please make it specific and brief because you can very often be tediously boring and so convoluted that it defeats the purpose of making yourself understood, unless it is deliberately so strategised. In conclusion, your reference to "La La Land" is quite childish and hardly does credit to your intellect. Intellectual dishonesty. It was an expression used by me for specific reference to the attitude of "we do not care for the Nation, we do not believe in a Nation" (my own quote marks). It is hardly pertinent to this topic. Again, I see in it an attitude of "You are one of the mob, remember you spoke of La La Land. You must be attacked over it even if it has no bearing here" Sad attitude. Kshmendra Kaul Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: Dear Kshemendra, You said, "Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about "freedoms". No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer.The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer." As a matter of fact, I did. Though in doing so, I did not think I was displaying anything by way of 'moral courage'. I thought I was simply haveing an exchange about the circumstances in which I would countenance or endorse, or at least not object to censorship. I answered Naeem off list. I wrote to him, personally, On the same day, in less than four hours after Naeem had posted his query. I enclose below (at the end of this post) the relevant excerpt from what I wrote to him. (I hope Naeem will not object, and I apologize to Naeem, and to the list for posting a private off-list conversation on the list, although it wa provoked by an on-list query,for reasons of clarification, and tangentially, to defend the honour, if you like, of 'La La Land'.) I did not think it necessary then to post this to the list because it consists in the main, of a quotation from something that I had already posted on the list, and that too recently, with some elaboration. I thought it would be a tad repetitive. But anyway, since it makes my position on censorship very clear,I am happy to include it, at the risk of repetitiveness. Once again, Kshemendra, watch it. Don't be so hasty in the making of assumptions about what other people might have done, or not have done. Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions makes you (more than occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish. Take Care, don't stumble, don't rush, the surfaces you fall on are very hard. 'La La Land' is not a gentle sort of place. Shuddha My reply to Naeem (with the time and date stamp) is below. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: urgent Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:55:51 +0530 From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Organization: Sarai To: Naeem Mohaiemen References: Dear Naeem, ... I did write about what I would censor, some time back, in the post titled 'The Attack on Taslima Nasrin in Hyderabad I' posted on the 18th of August, and maybe it is pertinent to what you wrote and this is - "Similarly, if someone were to post photographic representations of children or animals in a pornographic form on any web forum or any other platform, I would call for its censorship, not because it is pornographic but because its implies sexual actions with implicitly unverifiable consent. Here, i would maintain that a drawn or written (as opposed to photographic) representation would not qualify in my view for censorship, though I would strongly criticse such a representation. Similarly, I would personally call for the censorship of the snuff videos of acts of beheading that jihadist groups in Iraq and elsewhere in the world are so fond of displaying on internet forums, or the photographic representations of hangings and public executions that the fascist and totalitarian regimes in Iran and China sometimes put out Not because I have a problem with the representation of violence per se, but because in these cases the act of representation itself is a violation of the liberty of those who are being killed. No one has asked them (the executed) for their consent to have their beheading or hanging put on public display. In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I would be willing to endorse the censorship of." My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people from watching them. If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above. Please post this argument if you find it necessary, I am a bit tired of posting on the list by now. thanks Shuddha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about "freedoms". > > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer. > > The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer. > > Kshmendra Kaul > > PS: > Dear Naeem > > It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting to make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from you, I will understand. > > KK > > > > > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > The question was asked repeatedly on Sarai list recently, "are there > films whose screenings you would stop"? > > Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn? Read on.... > > > Already Under Fire, a Producer Is Going Further > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > Published: June 25, 2007 > > ...Having already provoked parents, women's groups and the ratings > board with explicit ads for the coming torture movie ''Captivity,'' > Mr. Solomon and his After Dark Films now intend to introduce the film, > set for release July 13, with a party that may set a new standard for > the politically incorrect. > > ...But the warren of live torture rooms is a must. As Mr. Solomon > envisions it, individuals in torture gear will wander through the West > Hollywood club Privilege grabbing partygoers. All of which is a > prelude to an undisclosed main event that, he warned last week over > slices of pizza a few doors from his company's new offices on the > Sunset Strip, is ''probably not legal.'' "'The women's groups > definitely will love it,'' Mr. Solomon hinted. ''I call it my personal > little tribute to them.'' > > Mr. Solomon, a fast-talking 35-year-old, and his genre-film company > were barely noticed until outrage at the ''Captivity'' billboards -- > which chronicled a young woman's torment, with frames titled > ''Abduction,'' ''Confinement,'' ''Torture,'' ''Termination'' -- led to > a rare censure by the Motion Picture Association of America this > spring. > > When the association's ratings board suspended its process for a month > as a punitive measure, ''Captivity'' missed its May release date and > was bumped to June 22. But Bob Weinstein and his Dimension Films > wanted that date for their competing horror film ''1408,'' and he > persuaded Mr. Solomon to swap for Friday, July 13. Mr. Solomon quickly > called that Friday ''Captivity Day.'' > > ...These added explicit torture , including a so-called ''milkshake'' > scene that involves body parts and a blender, to a picture that was > largely psychological in its thrust when After Dark acquired the > rights to it. > > Government to Take a Hard Look at Horror > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > Published: March 24, 2007 > > > ...Earlier this week, After Dark and Lionsgate scrambled to contain > the public-relations damage after a Los Angeles Times columnist quoted > several young students objecting to an especially gruesome billboard > for ''Captivity'' near their middle school. After Dark, which is > expected to release the film on May 18 with Lionsgate, quickly agreed > to pull part of its ad campaign. > > ....Horror aficionados date the genre's current flourishing to October > 2004. The first of Lionsgate's ''Saw'' movies, about a demonically > inventive serial killer, opened to a surprisingly strong $18 million > on its first weekend, though it lacked an expensive cast or a > pedigreed filmmaker. Sequels, imitators and close cousins soon > followed. > > ...Fox Atomic, a division formed by Fox Searchlight to cultivate the > late-teenage and early-adult audience, on March 6 placed an ad for its > film ''The Hills Have Eyes 2'' with an evening showing of > ''Dodgeball,'' rated PG-13, on FX. The ad identified ''Hills,'' about > National Guard trainees brutally murdered by mutants, as being not yet > rated, though film association guidelines call for the disclosure of > ratings in ads, and the company had accepted an R rating the day > before. John Hegeman, Fox Atomic's chief operating officer, said the R > rating was missing because it takes about two days to alter a > television spot > > ....official sites for R-rated fare -- deal with > Bloody-disgusting.com, Arrow in the Head (joblo.com/arrow), > Fangoria.com, or any of another dozen such Web sites. > (Bloody-disgusting, for example, includes chat forums that address > such questions as: ''Can anyone suggest a good torture-esk > movie?'')...The operators of several such sites said they had no way > of knowing how many of their visitors were under 17, but believed the > numbers were substantial. ''The horror site skews a little more toward > the younger ones,'' said Berge Garabedian, founder of the Joblo.com > film site and its associated Arrow in the Head horror section, which > this week carried a banner ad for an unrated DVD of ''Sublime,'' about > gruesome murder in a hospital, from Warner Home Video. Mr. Garabedian > said he tried to block visitors under 15 from discussion boards in > order to eliminate ''a lot of MySpace craziness,'' but thought a > considerable share of his Arrow in the Head visitors to be in the > 13-to-18-year-old age range. > > ....Experian Simmons Research found that 12 percent of respondents > between the ages of 12 and 17 reported watching ''Saw II'' in > theaters, while 12 percent said they had seen the film on DVD, and 26 > percent reported viewing any horror in theaters. In its 2004 report, > the Federal Trade Commission said that in 36 percent of their > attempts, its underage ''mystery shoppers'' were able to buy a movie > ticket without an age check in theaters, down somewhat from about half > in 2000. Meanwhile 81 percent of the young buyers obtained R-rated > DVDs without a check. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 19:10:42 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <32144e990709150503u62f0f22ap14f0ea3cdd72e82b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <181631.41448.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Partha, If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal issues, I should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains me. As per my knowledge SARAI reader list voice, reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting BHAGAVATGEETA, sadrsam cestate svasyah prakrter jnanavan api prakrtim yanti bhutani nigrahah kim karisyati Everyone gets to his own innate nature That is his inherent potential That is his swadharma The wise one also tries to Do karma according to his swadharma How can anyone’s opinion Or renouncing (nigrahah) anything Make a difference in this situation? ||3:33|| indriyasyendriyasyarthe raga-dvesau vyavasthitau tayor na vasam agacchet tau hy asya paripanthinau The indriyas have potential energy There is always a momentum One should know of the ragas and dweshas That resides in every indriyas Ready to hijack the person as a whole And take him away from the Path that leads to the center (raga = attachments, dwesha = aversion, jealosy). ||3:34|| sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah para-dharmat svanusthitat sva-dharme nidhanam sreyah para-dharmo bhayavahah Know and follow your swadharma That is your aptitude It is always better to die Following your own dharma Following someone else’s path And someone else’s dharma Is against the very personal nature of our being This is against the very aptitude (swadharma) And can potentially lead to fear inside. (Fear of the unknown and The fear of being against one’s nature) ||3:35|| I dont know what do you expect by writing that you are Hindu and Indian married to christian. I am not the right person to question about your life! I am not interested to ask that Christian is HINDU(I mean Indian)? BRITISH? GERMAN? US? I am not interested to know you are advicing your fellow Indians wherever reading this, too follow the same as you did? I am not interested to ask you dont you find a good Hindu girl either in greater BANGLA or anywhere in the world? I am not interested to ask you, that "Dont you find a good human being among Indians living in the world" I am not interested to know what for you did that? Might thought that you were the head of the heads by that time? or just saying on SARAI for timebeing to contradict me or for any other reason? I am not worried about the way your posts directed to SARAI, but let me ask you 1)Being a great human being got married to another great human being and never worried about what dharma that the child will follow, Where are you living now? Your own home or the home built by your parents? Because I astonished by reading TOI news recently stating that, at the old age of 88 Zinnah daughter feeling diehard to live their childhood home at MUMBAI. Forget rest of all nonsense as per you, but if you living away from your parents being a great human being what are your feeling? Definitely you should have feelings, because you are a great human being so What to post next is upto you. Next regarding BRAHMINS, brahmins are just for name sake. The fact is brahmins lost their whatever you say, when "INDIRA PRIYADARSINI" got married to a Parsi, I believe. But as they are also living beings on this earth like anybody continuing their journey struggling for existance under the Dharma-Adharma discrimination. I noticed that you forget to add your signature "Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka " in your succesive mails. Regards, Dhatri. Partha Dasgupta wrote: Hi, Fascinating read about the origin of zero. And I was wrong about India first using the symbol of zero in it's curent form. India used a dot to signify zero while the Chinese used the open circle that we use today. Of course, we can dismiss it as 'misinformation by foreign hand' if it's inconvenient, so don't worry. Rgds, Partha ................................. On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: Dear Dhatri, I'm proud to be a Hindu, but before that I'm proud to be an Indian. You'd probably not count me as a Hindu (and therefore not an Indian) as I'm married to a Christian. And I will not apologise as I married a wonderful human being whom I'm very proud of. I did not marry her caste or religion. For that matter, I don't care what relegion my children follow as long as they grow up to be good human beings. I do hope that you do not exclude all but Hindu's in India... and then move on to push out every one but brahmins. India was not won only by Hindu's. And do try and remember that tribals are not Hindu's. They follow yakshas and yakshi's and not the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva which happens to be the definition of a Hindu. You claim to be proud of India and in the same breath knock the elected representatives of India. Do look at facts. Do look at how you keep contradicting yourself time and again. Rgds, Partha On 9/15/07, we wi wrote: radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: I am proud to be hindu, it makes me tolerent, but not impotent, it makes me clever but not coward, that I tolerate does not mean that I am quiet, I plan to annihilate the opponents with my sama ,dana, bheda and finally danda, as dandam dashagunam bhaveth. I foresee the future where hindus divided by divisive politics unite together out of the caste and class conundrums, as the political parties wake up from their selfish greedy approach to seek power by part time appeasement in the guise of "secular" rule has created more discrimination than good rule of law. Next generation is ready now and is waiting for a leader and chanakyas India, that is my hindustan has all novel ideas of his, to conquer the evil for good of the society. ----- Original Message ----- From: we wi Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:17 pm Subject: ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, > > Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from > Gujarat . If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, > Dhatri == Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother > Earth. If you have patience to look at these terms just go > through the entire link or just fire a find (Cntl+F) and type > these terms over there. > > http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm > > To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - > > I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh > parishaths, Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. > India HINDU comes first and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen > of India, Valid Passport holder, It's my Constitutional right to > vote as per my choice and live. Those all who never completed > schooling and aware of India > Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices > to enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. > > Focusing on the topic now, > > What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing > converse logic and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. > >If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in > the >same month as India, so perhaps they might reply by > dispatching some >of them into India if India goes for hot chases, > surgical strikes, >masala dosas, bhel pooris etc. > > > > YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like > India). > > Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical > > Induction,on Junaid statement > "Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" > > so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not > move out of their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how > India can execute it later. > > --Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier > > Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata > Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham > TRANSLATION > Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O > Bharata, and a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! > OR > Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, > O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at > that time I descend myself. > So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple > understanding is the 9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more > remaining to come. The followers of Buddhism now misunderstood > it. > > --And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to > the world or a bunch of people like you. What to do if > people/countries like you are betraying then bullying is the last > sort of option. I don't know how many of the readers aware of > this but happy to quote from the first Para of the post > > --Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth > > http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business > --On 0, > Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, > understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and > joviality (professor student) and your will in favor/against > PATENTING and IPR is nothing to do with the practicalities. You > may say that countries/you can use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN > WAY. No problem you/countries can write whatever the way they > wish to use. > > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the > members aware that except a few all countries signed WTO Free > trade Geneva pact. Under this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. > How is this useful and applicable to India? Let me explain more > scientifically. Hitech world use computers day-to-day life > everywhere. Computers operate on "bit". A bit is nothing but a > binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get Patenting and IPR > over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact should > take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or > whatever COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, > India may/may not uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind > enough to allow countries to use 0 for general purposes. It > depends again. > > Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear > dispatch, for moving them people need INDIA permission. > > We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and > need a motivated, will powered political system to execute this. > This is feasible 99%. > > Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. > > --On points 1,2,3 > You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and > Sadhus Shri Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). > Because they are all sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You > will never compare them with Aurangazeb. > For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its > boarders from Alexander to British > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka > 3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra > 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana > > For your better understanding > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > -- On points 4,5 > Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your > writing are in genuine, I request you to please > > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne > > -- On points 6,7,8 > Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna > daughter is dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it > till her teenage (before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. > |This is the fact and for your kind information. I pity for > Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah sister who migrated to > Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR is an > Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from > Pakistan and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid > or like personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to > vacate peaks occupied and offered. > Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive > India is ready welcome the kid. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > --------------------------------- > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your > story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 19:26:25 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:56:25 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <181631.41448.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <181631.41448.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46EBE489.4080409@googlemail.com> Excuse me, but this reads like plain goobledegook! And quoting the scriptures to preface that gook! Takes the cake, man! Or the Benares peda! Tapas we wi wrote: > Dear Partha, > > > If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal issues, I should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains me. As per my knowledge SARAI reader list voice, > reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting BHAGAVATGEETA, > > sadrsam cestate svasyah > prakrter jnanavan api > prakrtim yanti bhutani > nigrahah kim karisyati > > Everyone gets to his own innate nature > That is his inherent potential > That is his swadharma > The wise one also tries to > Do karma according to his swadharma > How can anyone’s opinion > Or renouncing (nigrahah) anything > Make a difference in this situation? ||3:33|| > > indriyasyendriyasyarthe > raga-dvesau vyavasthitau > tayor na vasam agacchet > tau hy asya paripanthinau > > The indriyas have potential energy > There is always a momentum > One should know of the ragas and dweshas > That resides in every indriyas > Ready to hijack the person as a whole > And take him away from the > Path that leads to the center > (raga = attachments, dwesha = aversion, jealosy). ||3:34|| > > sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah > para-dharmat svanusthitat > sva-dharme nidhanam sreyah > para-dharmo bhayavahah > > Know and follow your swadharma > That is your aptitude > It is always better to die > Following your own dharma > > Following someone else’s path > And someone else’s dharma > Is against the very personal nature of our being > This is against the very aptitude (swadharma) > And can potentially lead to fear inside. > (Fear of the unknown and > The fear of being against one’s nature) ||3:35|| > I dont know what do you expect by writing that you are Hindu and Indian married to christian. I am not the right person to question about your life! > > I am not interested to ask that Christian is HINDU(I mean Indian)? BRITISH? GERMAN? US? > I am not interested to know you are advicing your fellow Indians wherever reading this, too follow the same as you did? > I am not interested to ask you dont you find a good Hindu girl either in greater BANGLA or anywhere in the world? > I am not interested to ask you, that "Dont you find a good human being among Indians living in the world" > > I am not interested to know what for you did that? Might thought that you were the head of the heads by that time? or just saying on SARAI for timebeing to contradict me or for any other reason? > > > I am not worried about the way your posts directed to SARAI, but let me ask you > > 1)Being a great human being got married to another great human being and never worried about what dharma that the child will follow, Where are you living now? Your own home or the home built by your parents? > > Because I astonished by reading TOI news recently stating that, at the old age of 88 Zinnah > daughter feeling diehard to live their childhood home at MUMBAI. Forget rest of all nonsense as per you, but if you living away from your parents being a great human being what are your feeling? Definitely you should have feelings, because you are a great human being so What to post next is upto you. > > > Next regarding BRAHMINS, brahmins are just for name sake. The fact is brahmins lost their whatever you say, when "INDIRA PRIYADARSINI" got married to a Parsi, I believe. But as they are also living beings on this earth like anybody continuing their journey struggling for existance under the Dharma-Adharma discrimination. > > > > I noticed that you forget to add your signature > "Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka " in your succesive mails. > > > Regards, > Dhatri. > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 19:34:04 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:04:04 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the screening of Taurus In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709150442q3e1a077etbeee61253e08acfd@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00709150206q3aab491j3676497c93a67d7b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709150442q3e1a077etbeee61253e08acfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EBE654.4070603@googlemail.com> In my humble opinion, one exposes oneself to contempt, to say the least, by being a fan of someone like Modi, who presided over a genocide and was less than appreciated by his own party boss (A.B. Vajpayee) for his pains. Incidentally, as my previous posts have indicated, I am no fan of Prakash Ray's party either. Pawan Durani wrote: > Is being a fan of Modi a crime ? > > On 9/15/07, prakash ray wrote: >> Dear Pawan, >> >> It is not really a reply to your post. It is an outright refusal to hear >> anything from the RSS gang. One of the two links you have provided is an >> article by Udyan Namboodari, a so-called journalist and die hard fan of >> Narendra Modi. The other piece is full of lies and baseless guesses. I >> request you to keep your mind and senses in control and balance. >> >> Wishing you swift recovery, >> Prakash From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 19:49:07 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 07:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] STOP THE SHUDDHA-FECAL-TION In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709150303u7c0a4885p22564a882bb65a67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <830885.2670.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Vishal, That was a great post.I mean the original one.I find my faculties of expression inadequate to connect to passionate people in general and ladies in particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again. Now,many people think that A united and independent Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution to this 60 year old dispute. This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but who are the stakeholders in such type of a solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required here. What I or you think should happen, would not affect reality one bit. Nations dont work on such canonical moral principles.For getting anywhere near to the solution of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip with realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit from an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir itself.As for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN reiterates a policy of non interference and bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb the other party to come to a solution. Nor can any country bleed the other to a point of submission by terrorism etc. Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the North East, b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and India would not be comfortable with that going in a different country. c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not to try to usurp any further territory. d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a disputed territory and if any party is perceived to go soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult time to get elected again. So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it may have to do or it may have to tolerate. I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there is the one water treaty,for them to have reservations in wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether there is an internal political spin to it. Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign state,it will also have problems with its non uniform demographics. There would always be some sort of strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of an option would only guarantee the continuation of some kind of trouble in the region. So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would not allow it to happen,without consideration for Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in the solution of the problem.Most of all the Kashmiris. Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense expenditure). A solution is a win win option for everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their idealism;because its a matter of life and death for many people. And,above all , all concerned parties should drop this holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their stated positions. By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been a Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion would have been the same. regards Rahul --- Vishal Rawlley wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > I agree with you somewhat... > > Sometimes a scream is better than a thesis. > -Ralph Waldo Emerson > > Those who have suffered can speak directly form > their heart, without needing > to refer to historical texts and court documents. > However, getting emotional > can also blind ones thinking. To a mother whose > decent and noble army > officer son has been shot down while waiting at a > bus stop (along with other > innocent bystanders) cannot be persuaded that the > perpetrators were "freedom > fighters" and not terrorists and that her son was an > "enemy agent" in a > "forcibly occupied land". I am assuming for > arguments sake that it is true > that Kashmir is "occupied territory" and the armed > conflict is between > "freedom fighters" and a "brutal army". > > But, Pawan, could it also be that this assumption is > actually the fact?! > Many are enraged that their army officer brethren > are being made sacrificial > lambs in this war, when the only solution might be > to withdraw and talk > across the table?? Could it be that the Kashmiri > Pandits are being used as > pawns in a bigger game? It seems to me that the > Kashmiri Pandits are more > with Delhi now than with Kashmir. Does Kashmir have > a genuine reason to > fight with the state or no??? Are you willing to > fight this for the sake of > all Kashmiris? Or is this just a Kashmiri Muslim's > war? > > Please ask yourself these questions and read the > arguments posted by others > carefully and dispassionately and you may derive > something out of it. They > you can direct your anger in the right direction. Do > not get baited by > others at the slightest provocation. Most people are > interested to see the > land and honour of ALL Kashmiris restored to them > and put an end to the > blood bath. These people are interested in this much > more than forcibly > keeping Kashmir with India at the cost of many > lives. > > I request you to take a break and do some > introspection. Your opponents can > often give to more insights than your fan followers. > You may end up > realising that it is the Indian politicians that are > actually your main > enemy. You may also realise that you should shake > that Yasin Malik's hand > when he is offering it to you. You may feel much > better after this. You > could also start speaking to your Muslim Kashmiri > brothers and sisters about > fighting the injustice to Kashmir without resorting > to terror. You could > take the example of the Tibetan movement. The > misguided need to be helped > and this is what your cause perhaps should be. > > Whatever you decide is your wish, but hate mails to > the reader-list is not > helping in any way yaar! > > Best, > Vishal > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > hello Vishal , > > > > I appreciate your mail. > > > > However I must say that people like Shuddha twist > and mix up the words to > > present it to support their ideas . And their > discussion on a subject about > > which they have only "read" and not "suffered " or > "experienced" speaks a > > lot about their intellectualism. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Vishal Rawlley < > vishal.rawlley at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > No, I don't think we need people to purge and > purify this space. Jane do > > > yaar, ashuddh hee theek hai. The self-appointed > shit sweepers should > > > absolutely stop. You guys are spreading more > shit around than wiping it > > > off. > > > Now every post smells of turd. Smell this one > and see - its all over. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would imagine that the readers of this list > are intelligent enough and > > > > > > mature enough to decide which arguments to > purchase and which to ignore. > > > > > > Leave the shit alone. Let it decompose by > itself, its biodegradable > > > after > > > all. Ignore it please. If you do have a better > argument or a different > > > viewpoint or more information on an issue, > please do share it with us: > > > the > > > readers. There is no point aiming it at people > whose intelligence and > > > logic > > > you doubt. Stop lacing your counter arguments > with "I do not wish to > > > ridicule you, but…" "don't test my patience, > [or else]…" when you do put > > > > > > forward your point > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to me that the volunteer toilet > cleaners are being > > > opportunistic in > > > using the counter arguments to the crappy > comments only to brandish > > > their > > > own superior wit and wisdom. A > self-congratulatory club is so boring, an > > > > > > utter waste (pun intended). You guys have > created the ARKP hydra, fed it > > > and > > > buffered it and now it looms like a demon, > foaming and fuming, over all > > > of > > > us. > > > > > > > > > > > > That we now have people like, first, Vedavanti > and now some Kashmiri > > > pandits, with very opposed viewpoints on this > list, could have been such > > > a > > > good opportunity to converse with them. These > people represent the > > > viewpoint > > > of certain masses and are not just standalone > lunatics. Their different > > > viewpoint also has a reason for existing. Can we > address that? If only > > > we > > > were not so insensitive and didn't act > prudishly, we could have engaged > > > them > > > more positively. Expecting carefully constructed > arguments from them is > > > futile. There was no need to be baited by them > every time they acted > > > provocatively. One could have ignored them – > simple solution. But if you > > > > > > must take on the tough task of correcting their > prejudice then > > > understand > > > first what you are trying to take on. It could > be a very useful > > > exercise. I > > > personally do not have the where withal to do > so, but if your toilet > > > cleaners must engage them, then have bottomless > patience, show some > > > love, > > > some Gandhigiri, handle them gently and then > perhaps they would respond. > > > Some of them are quite loveable and very human. > They === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 21:41:58 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 21:41:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] STOP THE SHUDDHA-FECAL-TION In-Reply-To: <830885.2670.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <31d5ea920709150303u7c0a4885p22564a882bb65a67@mail.gmail.com> <830885.2670.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709150911v505c70c2kd71925cdae66bf80@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul, Very well said. You have a right to your own opinions and have provided good reasoning for it too. However, it does not necessarily mean that everyone has to agree with you. Other people have a right to their own viewpoints based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your views. If you are convinced that your views are superior than others, then its their loss that they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes to decide the best viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile keep refining your arguments. Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who won't listen. Many successive Indian governments have tried the policy that you are propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now what to do? What is the correct solution? Can you put it down step by step, just like you put down all the problems point by point? Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution, which was: withdrawal of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian and under Pakistani occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space to decide - after considering all the problems that you mentioned - whether they want to be independent or be with either country (entirely or partly, as in partly autonomous). I do not know this if solution of theirs will work, what do you think? Maybe this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide and they might kill each other some more before they arrive at a plan. But at least they will not be able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems better than wasting our money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us forcefully. Do you have a better plan? Tell us please. -Vishal On 9/15/07, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Hi Vishal, > That was a great post.I mean the original one.I find > my faculties of expression inadequate to connect to > passionate people in general and ladies in > particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of > "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again. > Now,many people think that A united and independent > Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution to > this 60 year old dispute. > This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont > think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but who > are the stakeholders in such type of a > solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required here. > What I or you think should happen, would not affect > reality one bit. > Nations dont work on such canonical moral > principles.For getting anywhere near to the solution > of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip with > realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit from > an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir itself.As > for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN > reiterates a policy of non interference and > bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb the > other party to come to a solution. Nor can any country > bleed the other to a point of submission by terrorism > etc. > Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India > a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the > North East, > b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and India > would not be comfortable with that going in a > different country. > c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not to > try to usurp any further territory. > d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a > disputed territory and if any party is perceived to go > soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult time > to get elected again. > So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint > gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it > may have to do or it may have to tolerate. > I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there is > the one water treaty,for them to have reservations in > wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what > interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those > Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether > there is an internal political spin to it. > Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region > with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign > state,it will also have problems with its non uniform > demographics. There would always be some sort of > strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of an > option would only guarantee the continuation of some > kind of trouble in the region. > So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost > impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would > not allow it to happen,without consideration for > Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. > Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in > the solution of the problem.Most of all the Kashmiris. > Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense > expenditure). A solution is a win win option for > everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and > pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their > idealism;because its a matter of life and death for > many people. > And,above all , all concerned parties should drop this > holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and > come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to > everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their > stated positions. > By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I > know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been a > Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine > theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion > would have been the same. > regards > Rahul > > > > > > --- Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > I agree with you somewhat... > > > > Sometimes a scream is better than a thesis. > > -Ralph Waldo Emerson > > > > Those who have suffered can speak directly form > > their heart, without needing > > to refer to historical texts and court documents. > > However, getting emotional > > can also blind ones thinking. To a mother whose > > decent and noble army > > officer son has been shot down while waiting at a > > bus stop (along with other > > innocent bystanders) cannot be persuaded that the > > perpetrators were "freedom > > fighters" and not terrorists and that her son was an > > "enemy agent" in a > > "forcibly occupied land". I am assuming for > > arguments sake that it is true > > that Kashmir is "occupied territory" and the armed > > conflict is between > > "freedom fighters" and a "brutal army". > > > > But, Pawan, could it also be that this assumption is > > actually the fact?! > > Many are enraged that their army officer brethren > > are being made sacrificial > > lambs in this war, when the only solution might be > > to withdraw and talk > > across the table?? Could it be that the Kashmiri > > Pandits are being used as > > pawns in a bigger game? It seems to me that the > > Kashmiri Pandits are more > > with Delhi now than with Kashmir. Does Kashmir have > > a genuine reason to > > fight with the state or no??? Are you willing to > > fight this for the sake of > > all Kashmiris? Or is this just a Kashmiri Muslim's > > war? > > > > Please ask yourself these questions and read the > > arguments posted by others > > carefully and dispassionately and you may derive > > something out of it. They > > you can direct your anger in the right direction. Do > > not get baited by > > others at the slightest provocation. Most people are > > interested to see the > > land and honour of ALL Kashmiris restored to them > > and put an end to the > > blood bath. These people are interested in this much > > more than forcibly > > keeping Kashmir with India at the cost of many > > lives. > > > > I request you to take a break and do some > > introspection. Your opponents can > > often give to more insights than your fan followers. > > You may end up > > realising that it is the Indian politicians that are > > actually your main > > enemy. You may also realise that you should shake > > that Yasin Malik's hand > > when he is offering it to you. You may feel much > > better after this. You > > could also start speaking to your Muslim Kashmiri > > brothers and sisters about > > fighting the injustice to Kashmir without resorting > > to terror. You could > > take the example of the Tibetan movement. The > > misguided need to be helped > > and this is what your cause perhaps should be. > > > > Whatever you decide is your wish, but hate mails to > > the reader-list is not > > helping in any way yaar! > > > > Best, > > Vishal > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > > > > hello Vishal , > > > > > > I appreciate your mail. > > > > > > However I must say that people like Shuddha twist > > and mix up the words to > > > present it to support their ideas . And their > > discussion on a subject about > > > which they have only "read" and not "suffered " or > > "experienced" speaks a > > > lot about their intellectualism. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Vishal Rawlley < > > vishal.rawlley at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > No, I don't think we need people to purge and > > purify this space. Jane do > > > > yaar, ashuddh hee theek hai. The self-appointed > > shit sweepers should > > > > absolutely stop. You guys are spreading more > > shit around than wiping it > > > > off. > > > > Now every post smells of turd. Smell this one > > and see - its all over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would imagine that the readers of this list > > are intelligent enough and > > > > > > > > mature enough to decide which arguments to > > purchase and which to ignore. > > > > > > > > Leave the shit alone. Let it decompose by > > itself, its biodegradable > > > > after > > > > all. Ignore it please. If you do have a better > > argument or a different > > > > viewpoint or more information on an issue, > > please do share it with us: > > > > the > > > > readers. There is no point aiming it at people > > whose intelligence and > > > > logic > > > > you doubt. Stop lacing your counter arguments > > with "I do not wish to > > > > ridicule you, but…" "don't test my patience, > > [or else]…" when you do put > > > > > > > > forward your point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to me that the volunteer toilet > > cleaners are being > > > > opportunistic in > > > > using the counter arguments to the crappy > > comments only to brandish > > > > their > > > > own superior wit and wisdom. A > > self-congratulatory club is so boring, an > > > > > > > > utter waste (pun intended). You guys have > > created the ARKP hydra, fed it > > > > and > > > > buffered it and now it looms like a demon, > > foaming and fuming, over all > > > > of > > > > us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That we now have people like, first, Vedavanti > > and now some Kashmiri > > > > pandits, with very opposed viewpoints on this > > list, could have been such > > > > a > > > > good opportunity to converse with them. These > > people represent the > > > > viewpoint > > > > of certain masses and are not just standalone > > lunatics. Their different > > > > viewpoint also has a reason for existing. Can we > > address that? If only > > > > we > > > > were not so insensitive and didn't act > > prudishly, we could have engaged > > > > them > > > > more positively. Expecting carefully constructed > > arguments from them is > > > > futile. There was no need to be baited by them > > every time they acted > > > > provocatively. One could have ignored them – > > simple solution. But if you > > > > > > > > must take on the tough task of correcting their > > prejudice then > > > > understand > > > > first what you are trying to take on. It could > > be a very useful > > > > exercise. I > > > > personally do not have the where withal to do > > so, but if your toilet > > > > cleaners must engage them, then have bottomless > > patience, show some > > > > love, > > > > some Gandhigiri, handle them gently and then > > perhaps they would respond. > > > > Some of them are quite loveable and very human. > > They > === message truncated === > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! > http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 > > > From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 22:10:18 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 22:10:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer In-Reply-To: <214127.82974.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <46E83C18.4050108@sarai.net> <214127.82974.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709150940r35023ec3j3ef7ed707be0c01c@mail.gmail.com> Dear KK, You said: Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" But its not about "who" should decide. That way depending upon "who" is in power, each time a different standard would be applied. The "who" should therefore be the individual, and each should decide for themselves. But that does not mean that individuals can do whatever the decide to. There are some extreme and rare cases where restraint is necessary. And that brings us to:"what processes", "what areas" and "what evaluations" are to be considered?? Shuddha has very clearly elaborated on each and thus explained his position. He is not saying that everything should be allowed. "If it were non fiction, and non consensual [sexual act], then I would advocate strict censorship,..." he says - to give an example. Now according to his criteria, Jashn-e-Azadi is not such an extreme case, as the example he cites, so regardless of whether he likes the film or not, agrees with it or not, he feels it should not be censored. Now can you give your reasons for censoring a certain thing? What would you censor and why? Should Jashn-e-Azadi be censored, and if so why? Please state your case. Thank you. -Vishal On 9/15/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Shuddhabrata > > Your mail is addressed to me as an individual and therefore I shall > equally courteously respond. Soon after though, in another mail you revert > to "let us bunch them together" routine. > > It is interesting that some people who celebrate an individual's freedoms > and thereby an individual's identity in this "intellectual community" should > so readily chorus the "I see a mob, I see a mob, attack the mob" shouts > irrespective of how varied the opinions, positions and arguments might be. > Pick up one issue over which there might be strong disagreements and on that > basis dismiss all else about anyone who might even remotely suggest > himself/herself not subscribing to your views on any topic. Demonise them. > No good should be seen in the devils by anyone, so cloud the scene with > "They are a mob; They are a mob; Everyone must attack the mob". > > It was interesting to see someone like Rahul Asthana also (who in my > opinion is one of the "decent" correspondents on this list) get clubbed (not > by you) with the "mob" because he might have disagreed over some issue. > "Rahul is a part of them, Rahul is a part of the mob, beware, you must see > Rahul as part of the mob". Amusing. > > I see all of this as "intellectual cowardice" and a lack of "intellectual > ethics". Those who find it convenient to see a "mob" end up becoming a > "mob". It is sad because it includes some extremely sharp and bright > intellect. Individual intellect however always sacrifices itself to the > psyche of the "mob". > > Let me come to what your mail was essentially about. > > - Naeem asked a question in the room > - I did not see Naeem receiving an answer in the room > - Shuddha says he answered Naeem in private and explains why he did so > - No one in the room saw Naeem receive an answer in public for a question > he asked in public > - As far as any member (including me) of the room is concerned, Naeem did > not receive an answer. > > So Shuddha, there is no assumption on my part as far as that domain is > concerned where the question was asked and where no answer was given. I am > just a simple minded Horatio of simple philosophies of the apparent. > > Actually Shuddha, you of all the people should be able to appreciate that. > I remember the rather facile but the distinctinctness and separateness with > which you sought to aggressively define "public" and "private" spaces. > > I wonder now who should be the candidate for your threatening admonition > of "watch it" and the pomposity in "...makes you (more than occasionally) > run the risk of looking foolish." > > Shuddha your comment about me "Your eagerness to assume the role of the > omniscient surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions" might > sound very telling but does not make me cringe (if it was meant to) simply > because I was very interested in seeing what answers Naeem would receive. > For me, the answers to that question from a "neutral" observer would only > add perspectives to the discussion about "what" or "are there any at all" > limits that can be considered for "individual" or "collective" freedom of > expression. > > Thank you Shuddha for posting your response to Naeem. I saw the most > significant part of your response in your words: > > """""" In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech > and expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a > direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a > person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act. > And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I would be willing > to endorse the censorship of. > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would > not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have > written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that > spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong > content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such > material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people > from watching them. > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and m, > again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want to > watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict > censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above.""""""" > > You have very clearly given the examples and the reasoning. > > You have for one set of cases used the evaluating principle of "...... > there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well > being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant > speech act" Could hardly be put better. > > So, although both "regulation" and "censorship" may be restrictive of the > individual's right to freedom of expression or of that of the collective, > yet have to be taken on board as possible necessities for a variety of > reasons in a variety of situations. > > Both "regulation" and "censorship" cannot be an "open licence". The areas > where they can be applied, the bases of application and the extent of > application has to be extremely carefully thought about. > > Without any doubt (in my mind), the "regulatory" or "censoring" actions > have to be sincere, honest, should not over-step the allowed briefs and not > seek to serve hidden agendas. > > Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these > standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be > involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for > application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the > life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons > that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" > > Shuddha, if my comments over your mail to Naeem seem like they > misrepresent you, please do tell me (if you feel like doing so). Please make > it specific and brief because you can very often be tediously boring and so > convoluted that it defeats the purpose of making yourself understood, unless > it is deliberately so strategised. > > In conclusion, your reference to "La La Land" is quite childish and hardly > does credit to your intellect. Intellectual dishonesty. It was an expression > used by me for specific reference to the attitude of "we do not care for the > Nation, we do not believe in a Nation" (my own quote marks). It is hardly > pertinent to this topic. Again, I see in it an attitude of "You are one of > the mob, remember you spoke of La La Land. You must be attacked over it even > if it has no bearing here" Sad attitude. > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Kshemendra, > > You said, > > "Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > "freedoms". No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this > "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer.The > bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to > answer." > > As a matter of fact, I did. Though in doing so, I did not think I was > displaying anything by way of 'moral courage'. I thought I was simply > haveing an exchange about the circumstances in which I would countenance > or endorse, or at least not object to censorship. > > I answered Naeem off list. I wrote to him, personally, On the same day, > in less than four hours after Naeem had posted his query. I enclose > below (at the end of this post) the relevant excerpt from what I wrote > to him. > > (I hope Naeem will not object, and I apologize to Naeem, and to the list > for posting a private off-list conversation on the list, although it wa > provoked by an on-list query,for reasons of clarification, and > tangentially, to defend the honour, if you like, of 'La La Land'.) > > I did not think it necessary then to post this to the list because it > consists in the main, of a quotation from something that I had already > posted on the list, and that too recently, with some elaboration. I > thought it would be a tad repetitive. But anyway, since it makes my > position on censorship very clear,I am happy to include it, at the risk > of repetitiveness. > > Once again, Kshemendra, watch it. Don't be so hasty in the making of > assumptions about what other people might have done, or not have done. > Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent > of other peoples' actions and opinions makes you (more than > occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish. > > Take Care, don't stumble, don't rush, the surfaces you fall on are very > hard. 'La La Land' is not a gentle sort of place. > > Shuddha > > My reply to Naeem (with the time and date stamp) is below. > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: urgent > Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:55:51 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net > Organization: Sarai > To: Naeem Mohaiemen > References: > > Dear Naeem, > > ... I did write about what I would censor, some time back, in the > post titled 'The Attack on Taslima Nasrin in Hyderabad I' posted on the > 18th of August, and maybe it is pertinent to what you wrote and this is - > > "Similarly, if someone were to post photographic representations of > children or animals in a pornographic form on any web forum or any other > platform, I would call for its censorship, not because it is > pornographic but because its implies sexual actions with implicitly > unverifiable consent. Here, i would maintain that a drawn or written (as > opposed to photographic) representation would not qualify in my view for > censorship, though I would strongly criticse such a representation. > Similarly, I would personally call for the censorship of the snuff > videos of acts of beheading that jihadist groups in Iraq and elsewhere > in the world are so fond of displaying on internet forums, or the > photographic representations of hangings and public executions that the > fascist and totalitarian regimes in Iran and China sometimes put out > Not because I have a problem with the representation of violence per se, > but because in these cases the act of representation itself is a > violation of the liberty of those who are being killed. No one has asked > them (the executed) for their consent to have their beheading or hanging > put on public display. > > In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and > expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a > direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being > of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant > speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I > would be willing to endorse the censorship of." > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would > not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have > written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, > that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings > for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, > because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the > right to stop other people from watching them. > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and > m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want > to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict > censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above. > > Please post this argument if you find it necessary, I am a bit tired of > posting on the list by now. > > thanks > > Shuddha > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > "freedoms". > > > > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual > community" thought the question deserved an answer. > > > > The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to > answer. > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > PS: > > Dear Naeem > > > > It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting to > make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from you, > I will understand. > > > > KK > > > > > > > > > > > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > The question was asked repeatedly on Sarai list recently, "are there > > films whose screenings you would stop"? > > > > Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn? Read > on.... > > > > > > Already Under Fire, a Producer Is Going Further > > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > > Published: June 25, 2007 > > > > ...Having already provoked parents, women's groups and the ratings > > board with explicit ads for the coming torture movie ''Captivity,'' > > Mr. Solomon and his After Dark Films now intend to introduce the film, > > set for release July 13, with a party that may set a new standard for > > the politically incorrect. > > > > ...But the warren of live torture rooms is a must. As Mr. Solomon > > envisions it, individuals in torture gear will wander through the West > > Hollywood club Privilege grabbing partygoers. All of which is a > > prelude to an undisclosed main event that, he warned last week over > > slices of pizza a few doors from his company's new offices on the > > Sunset Strip, is ''probably not legal.'' "'The women's groups > > definitely will love it,'' Mr. Solomon hinted. ''I call it my personal > > little tribute to them.'' > > > > Mr. Solomon, a fast-talking 35-year-old, and his genre-film company > > were barely noticed until outrage at the ''Captivity'' billboards -- > > which chronicled a young woman's torment, with frames titled > > ''Abduction,'' ''Confinement,'' ''Torture,'' ''Termination'' -- led to > > a rare censure by the Motion Picture Association of America this > > spring. > > > > When the association's ratings board suspended its process for a month > > as a punitive measure, ''Captivity'' missed its May release date and > > was bumped to June 22. But Bob Weinstein and his Dimension Films > > wanted that date for their competing horror film ''1408,'' and he > > persuaded Mr. Solomon to swap for Friday, July 13. Mr. Solomon quickly > > called that Friday ''Captivity Day.'' > > > > ...These added explicit torture , including a so-called ''milkshake'' > > scene that involves body parts and a blender, to a picture that was > > largely psychological in its thrust when After Dark acquired the > > rights to it. > > > > Government to Take a Hard Look at Horror > > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > > Published: March 24, 2007 > > > > > > ...Earlier this week, After Dark and Lionsgate scrambled to contain > > the public-relations damage after a Los Angeles Times columnist quoted > > several young students objecting to an especially gruesome billboard > > for ''Captivity'' near their middle school. After Dark, which is > > expected to release the film on May 18 with Lionsgate, quickly agreed > > to pull part of its ad campaign. > > > > ....Horror aficionados date the genre's current flourishing to October > > 2004. The first of Lionsgate's ''Saw'' movies, about a demonically > > inventive serial killer, opened to a surprisingly strong $18 million > > on its first weekend, though it lacked an expensive cast or a > > pedigreed filmmaker. Sequels, imitators and close cousins soon > > followed. > > > > ...Fox Atomic, a division formed by Fox Searchlight to cultivate the > > late-teenage and early-adult audience, on March 6 placed an ad for its > > film ''The Hills Have Eyes 2'' with an evening showing of > > ''Dodgeball,'' rated PG-13, on FX. The ad identified ''Hills,'' about > > National Guard trainees brutally murdered by mutants, as being not yet > > rated, though film association guidelines call for the disclosure of > > ratings in ads, and the company had accepted an R rating the day > > before. John Hegeman, Fox Atomic's chief operating officer, said the R > > rating was missing because it takes about two days to alter a > > television spot > > > > ....official sites for R-rated fare -- deal with > > Bloody-disgusting.com, Arrow in the Head (joblo.com/arrow), > > Fangoria.com, or any of another dozen such Web sites. > > (Bloody-disgusting, for example, includes chat forums that address > > such questions as: ''Can anyone suggest a good torture-esk > > movie?'')...The operators of several such sites said they had no way > > of knowing how many of their visitors were under 17, but believed the > > numbers were substantial. ''The horror site skews a little more toward > > the younger ones,'' said Berge Garabedian, founder of the Joblo.com > > film site and its associated Arrow in the Head horror section, which > > this week carried a banner ad for an unrated DVD of ''Sublime,'' about > > gruesome murder in a hospital, from Warner Home Video. Mr. Garabedian > > said he tried to block visitors under 15 from discussion boards in > > order to eliminate ''a lot of MySpace craziness,'' but thought a > > considerable share of his Arrow in the Head visitors to be in the > > 13-to-18-year-old age range. > > > > ....Experian Simmons Research found that 12 percent of respondents > > between the ages of 12 and 17 reported watching ''Saw II'' in > > theaters, while 12 percent said they had seen the film on DVD, and 26 > > percent reported viewing any horror in theaters. In its 2004 report, > > the Federal Trade Commission said that in 36 percent of their > > attempts, its underage ''mystery shoppers'' were able to buy a movie > > ticket without an age check in theaters, down somewhat from about half > > in 2000. Meanwhile 81 percent of the young buyers obtained R-rated > > DVDs without a check. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! > FareChase. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > --------------------------------- > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 23:18:29 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 23:18:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg Message-ID: <32144e990709151048j6dbc8db5s1053406f7af4328@mail.gmail.com> Hi Tapas, Forgive me if I bye-pass you to talk to someone else, but I would like to talk to someone who can only hide behind shloks and skirt this issue. In the meantime: 1. Dharma is ruled by the actions we take, and not the religion we follow. I only stated that I don't care what religion my children follow. Or have you blinkered yourself so far that you have forgotten the basics of the dharam? 2. Whether I believe in misquoted chants or not, do you or do you not beleive that the Hindu is the only inheritant of Hindustan (which by the way is called India)? 3. Since you so fondly remember my signature (resoundings claps for your phenomenal memory) as an IT enabled person to a challenged person, allow me to help you in understanding that Google (and most other mail servers) have what they call a 'mobile' model and a 'computer' model. If that surpasses your brilliance, do feel free to mail/call me personally. And if you need more info, let me know and i'll mail you my office & residence details. You are so obvious, and so pathetic in your circle of hate that you even forget what Krishna told Arjun on the eve of the battle. Damn!! I forgot it doesn't suit your argument. Jai (non Siya) Ram! Non-warmly, Rgds, Partha On 9/15/07, Tapas Ray wrote: > Excuse me, but this reads like plain goobledegook! > > And quoting the scriptures to preface that gook! Takes the cake, man! Or > the Benares peda! > > Tapas > > > > we wi wrote: > > Dear Partha, > > > > > > If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal issues, I > should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains me. As per my > knowledge SARAI reader list voice, > > reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting > BHAGAVATGEETA, > > > > sadrsam cestate svasyah > > prakrter jnanavan api > > prakrtim yanti bhutani > > nigrahah kim karisyati > > > > Everyone gets to his own innate nature > > That is his inherent potential > > That is his swadharma > > The wise one also tries to > > Do karma according to his swadharma > > How can anyone's opinion > > Or renouncing (nigrahah) anything > > Make a difference in this situation? ||3:33|| > > > > indriyasyendriyasyarthe > > raga-dvesau vyavasthitau > > tayor na vasam agacchet > > tau hy asya paripanthinau > > > > The indriyas have potential energy > > There is always a momentum > > One should know of the ragas and dweshas > > That resides in every indriyas > > Ready to hijack the person as a whole > > And take him away from the > > Path that leads to the center > > (raga = attachments, dwesha = aversion, jealosy). ||3:34|| > > > > sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah > > para-dharmat svanusthitat > > sva-dharme nidhanam sreyah > > para-dharmo bhayavahah > > > > Know and follow your swadharma > > That is your aptitude > > It is always better to die > > Following your own dharma > > > > Following someone else's path > > And someone else's dharma > > Is against the very personal nature of our being > > This is against the very aptitude (swadharma) > > And can potentially lead to fear inside. > > (Fear of the unknown and > > The fear of being against one's nature) ||3:35|| > > I dont know what do you expect by writing that you are Hindu and Indian > married to christian. I am not the right person to question about your > life! > > > > I am not interested to ask that Christian is HINDU(I mean Indian)? > BRITISH? GERMAN? US? > > I am not interested to know you are advicing your fellow Indians > wherever reading this, too follow the same as you did? > > I am not interested to ask you dont you find a good Hindu girl either in > greater BANGLA or anywhere in the world? > > I am not interested to ask you, that "Dont you find a good human being > among Indians living in the world" > > > > I am not interested to know what for you did that? Might thought that > you were the head of the heads by that time? or just saying on SARAI for > timebeing to contradict me or for any other reason? > > > > > > I am not worried about the way your posts directed to SARAI, but let me > ask you > > > > 1)Being a great human being got married to another great human being and > never worried about what dharma that the child will follow, Where are you > living now? Your own home or the home built by your parents? > > > > Because I astonished by reading TOI news recently stating that, at the > old age of 88 Zinnah > > daughter feeling diehard to live their childhood home at MUMBAI. Forget > rest of all nonsense as per you, but if you living away from your parents > being a great human being what are your feeling? Definitely you should have > feelings, because you are a great human being so What to post next is upto > you. > > > > > > Next regarding BRAHMINS, brahmins are just for name sake. The fact is > brahmins lost their whatever you say, when "INDIRA PRIYADARSINI" got married > to a Parsi, I believe. But as they are also living beings on this earth > like anybody continuing their journey struggling for existance under the > Dharma-Adharma discrimination. > > > > > > > > I noticed that you forget to add your signature > > "Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka " in your succesive mails. > > > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 23:34:16 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 23:34:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Right Of The Left Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709151104m31e5d6b9mf7cb787cf076392e@mail.gmail.com> "Lal Salaam! Lal Salaam!" I heard the crowd as I neared the procession. It was my first day at the University which is known as "Red Island". "Up Up Communism, down-down Imperialism" the crowd shouted. It was led by a petite girl with curly hair who had a determination on her face – the determination to change the world. I was walking on the other side of the road while my eyes were taking note of all they could. They were students demanding to stop the "corporatisation" of the campus. They wanted to throw out the MNC outlets off the campus in favour of indigenous canteens or "dhabas". Then I noticed this guy with a handy-camera recording the proceedings. Somehow he stood out in the crowd. I was trying to get a better look at him when the procession turned left and I continued to walk straight. read the complete story at : http://farman.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/08/the-right-of-the-left.htm From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 02:41:18 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:11:18 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz and AnalHa In-Reply-To: <718205.95487.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <571997.82012.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <718205.95487.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709151411m79ba2c42q445623adc7f4124c@mail.gmail.com> sorry havent had a chance to reply. keeping up with the list is impossible at the moment due to my own engagements and the daunting list volume... and the repititious predictable arguments with occasional gems here and there ... I agree that things apparently black and white become so many shades of grey. so, sufism or (other form of religion) may be deeply personal, but there are also some distinct (and living) traditions, practices and trends including heretical, heterodox, orthodox and absorption/rejection of the ideas in specific ways depending on the (religious) frames of reference (such as particular sunni/shia subsects). so yes there are different types, schools (tariqa), traditions, amalgamations, and practices - which sometimes borrow from christian, jewish, sadhu, hindu ideas and practices. they may also be geographically distinct. with iqbal as one goes through his distnct 5 stages gaining the wisdoms of Adam/transcendence, Angels/freedom, Soul/action, Love/expansion and Civilization/creation, the last is the understanding of society and history as creation, after having gone through the rest. Khurram Shafique claims iqbal follows this pattern in an enigmatic way throughout his works, poems, prose works and down to the structure and order of couplets in his poems ! analhaq isa certain historical moment - it really is the expression of 'fana' - disappeance into a larger entity - the metaphysics of this (god, man etc) and the eschatology (stages/states and identifications/relations) is different for different sufis living in different times - with all the above also applying. for faiz the historical moment of offering ones head is a small step, a particularly rebellious step against the oppressors (intolerant of realities other than of their own power) - who would rather have this version of reality (in the head and person) obliterated. In such a scenario how can the ethos fail to be religious. Maududi does have a sufistic background/environment but he came to dislike it as wasted effort quite early. his reading of history is not orthodox such as on the early caliphate (khilafat aur malookiat - but i would not be able to say anything more specific than this. frequently the beloved is god. this scheme with much elaboration, symbolism and nuances is there in early sufis as well as ghazal of khomeini, ghalib or faiz. while this may be a problem (if taken literally) for atheists who are fundamentalist insisting on a strong form of materialism (metaphysics in which matter is the primary material), this may not be a problem for dualists (mind and matter), monists of the other king (mind/spirit/god as primary) and agnostics (who has seen the other side - we might get a surprise). this doesnt exhaust the possibilities or the arguments. While my guess would be: faiz leaning towards agnosticism, his basic definition of truth is something like, following the trail of the beloved. on the other hand (from intizar hussain) faiz would be what is a cultural muslim for whom the debate about god's existence is meaningless. this is a fairly common attitude for non-religious types in every trade. Kshemendra, i find your urges and observations fascinating. this is heterodoxy and probably what is most interesting in itself - but of least interest to bigots, alas. you been hanging out in the wrong places sometimes without a choice. best On 9/12/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Rahul and Yasir and all other interested ones > > "These matters that with myself I too much discuss > Too much explain" > From Ash Wednesday by T S Eliot From ysikand at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 03:51:37 2007 From: ysikand at gmail.com (Yogi Sikand) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 03:51:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Gita as India's National Book?: Bizarre Judgment Backs Hindutva's Message-ID: <48097acc0709151521p45e9f40ia36aba8b91df4b40@mail.gmail.com> The Gita as India's National Book?: Bizarre Judgment Backs Hindutva's Assault on Indian Constitution. By Gautam Kumar Justice S.N.Srivastava of the Allahabad High Court, who retired earlier this month, is no stranger to controversy. Some months ago, he stirred a hornet's nest by ruling that Muslims in Uttar Pradesh were not a minority, although they form only around a fifth of the population of the state. And just last week, five days before he was to be relived of his responsibilities, he passed yet another bizarre judgment, recommending that the Government of India declare the Bhagwad Gita as the country's national 'dharma shastra' or religious book. He also made unwarranted comments about non-Hindus, particularly Muslims. Not surprisingly, critics denounced the judge for what they saw as his unabashed Hindutva leanings. As in his controversial judgment in the earlier case about the status of Muslims in Uttar Pradesh, in the present case Srivastava clearly overstepped his brief, so critics argue. The case in hand did not require Srivastava to pontificate on the Gita, let alone recommend that it be hoisted upon all Indians as their national 'religious book'. Yet, he did not limit himself to what was strictly required by the case, using the opportunity to make remarks that clearly defy the constitutional principles of secularism and equality. The case that Srivastava was hearing related to a dispute over a property dedicated to the Hindu deity Shri Shaligram Shila, a form of Krishna, in the Mohalla Til Bhandeshwar locality in Varanasi. The case involved two Bengali Brahmins, Shyamlal Ranjan Mukherjee and Nirmal Ranjan Mukherjee, both of whom claimed control over the said property. The former, the petitioner in the case, had shifted to Gujarat for work, and in the meanwhile the latter sold the said property to a fellow Hindu. In his complaint, the former questioned this sale deed, claiming that a person entrusted with the responsibility of taking care of a property dedicated to a Hindu deity could not sell or mortgage it. In his defence, the latter argued that he had sold the property because the locality in which it was located had been allegedly affected by 'communal violence' for many years, because of which he and his family had felt insecure, compelling them to shift to Allahabad, along with the deity he was meant to take care of. That, in short, were the bare facts of the case. But rather than restrict himself to the case, Srivastava went on to raise several questions and pass remarks that, critics would argue, the case did not require him to. Srivastava's clumsy English, glaring throughout the text of his judgment, may be excused, but several of his conclusions are clearly contentious. The defendant's claim of his locality being affected by communal tension seems to have been taken at face value by Srivastava, who used it to create the distinct impression that Hindu temples in particular were under attack in Uttar Pradesh and elsewhere. This suggestion was reinforced by Srivastava's lengthy references to colonial and Hindutva writings on alleged temple destruction by Muslim rulers, which, of course, have no direct bearing on the case but seem to have been marshaled in order to back a distinct Hindutva and anti-Muslim agenda. Curiously, there was no reference in Srivastava's judgment to the wanton destruction of Muslim places of worship (besides the regular anti-Muslim pogroms, in Uttar Pradesh and elsewhere) that continues to happen on a far larger scale than the destruction of Hindu religious places. Instead of referring to this issue as well, Srivastava approvingly quoted Sanjay Goswami, Amicus Curiae in the case, who argued that 'it is the duty of the state of U.P. to take appropriate steps to look after such properties to ensure proper management, security and safety of religious rights of Hindus from communal violence, grabbing by anti-social or communal elements […]'. The need for similar protection of Muslim religious institutions and properties was left unmentioned. Srivastava went further to support Goswami's case for state protection to Hindu temples in Uttar Pradesh by referring to his contention that if no such protection were provided 'a time might come when properties of temples or religious institutions will go in the hands to (sic.) anti-Hindu forces and communal forces will be encouraged to create communal tension who (sic.) would engineer atmosphere of communal violence to grab Hindu religious institutions'. No mention was made here of Muslim religious institutions grabbed or destroyed by Hindutva hordes, a major phenomenon in post-1947 north India. Nor did Srivastava appear to take serious note of the fact that the disputed religious property that the case he was hearing was sold to a Hindu, and not to a Muslim, a fact that might have greatly weakened his argument about 'anti-Hindu' forces allegedly seeking to capture Hindu shrines. Not content with advocating special police protection for all Hindu religious institutions, Srivastava went on to refer in great detail to the contention of I.N. Singh, counsel for the Kashi Vidwat Parishad, Varanasi, who argued that the Hindu god Krishna, whose temple was at the centre of the present dispute, had a particular universal 'importance', because he had 'given us Gita (sic.), which is a dharma shastra not only for the Hindus, but for the entire human being (sic.)'. Singh urged that the Gita be declared as the 'national dharma shastra', or holy code of duties, of India, claiming that it had 'nothing to do with any particular religion', but, rather, that it propounded a 'theory of duties of human beings'. He insisted that the Gita's message was 'relevant for all religions of the world'. He further urged that the state of Uttar Pradesh be directed to 'protect all […] religious institutions of all beliefs and thoughts (religions) (sic.) within the fold of Hinduism'. In his judgment, Srivastava broadly concurred with this argument, claiming that such protection was necessary if 'a temple or any other religious institution belonging to (sic.) Hinduism are (sic.) affected by frequent violence/tension', adding that this was necessary in order to protect the religious freedoms of the Hindus as guaranteed by the Indian Constitution. Srivastava devoted page after page of his lengthy judgment to what he termed as the 'historical background of continuous attack on temples belonging to Hindus', thus conjuring the spectre of Hinduism and its institutions being under continuous siege from Muslims. He argued that 'Temples were always subject to attacks and constructions (sic.) of mosques and madrasas in their places for the last more than 1200 years'. 'Such attacks', he claimed, 'are still continuing'. He conveniently ignored the long tradition of Hindu rulers destroying or forcibly appropriating places of worship of non-Hindus, such as the Jains and Buddhists, or even of fellow Hindus, a point that numerous historians have highlighted. Nor did he care to mention the long tradition of Muslim rulers having patronized and liberally supported numerous Hindu religious establishments. Nor, too, did he bother to mention the literally thousands of Muslim shrines (and lives) destroyed by Hindu gangs in the decades since 1947, a phenomenon much more widespread than contemporary temple destruction by Muslims. In this way, Srivastava sought to reinforce the image of the Muslim as the irredeemable iconoclast and the Hindu as hapless and innocent victim that is so central to Hindutva discourse. Srivastava sought to argue, against the available evidence, that non-Hindus (Muslims, in particular) continue to be the source of communal violence in India. Thus, he spoke of 'communal and anti-Hindu forces' seeking to 'create an atmosphere of communal tension and insecurity in (sic.) Hindus' so as to allegedly grab their temples. He referred to the case under dispute in Varanasi as 'only an example of situation (sic.) prevailing in state (sic.) of U.P.', where, he claimed, without offering proof, that Hindus are 'insecure' in areas where 'population of members (sic.) of Hinduism are reduced and the population of non-Hindu communities has increased'. In such places, he contended, 'anti-social and communal elements of other religious community (sic.) are now a dominant force, affecting religious rites of worship and maintenance of temples of Hindus'. He claimed that these non-Hindus were allegedly inspired by the example of iconoclastic Muslim rulers of the past. They, he argued, have given the Hindus no option but to 'leave the temples and transfer the properties attached with to the temple (sic.) to anti-social and communal elements'. This, of course, represents a very partial view of, or some might say, a complete reversal of, reality, given that Muslims have been and continue to be the worst victims of communal violence, often state-instigated, in Uttar Pradesh and in several other parts of India. Not surprisingly, there is no mention in Srivastava's judgment of 'anti-social' and 'communal' elements among Hindus, these epithets being reserved for non-Hindus alone, particularly Muslims. Srivastava rounded up his long diatribe by arguing that Hindu temples in Uttar Pradesh were under grave threat from non-Hindu 'anti-social' forces. Hence, he concluded, 'as such all the temples of religions within the fold of Hinduism (sic.) require protection'. For this purpose, he suggested that the state create a separate security force or a separate section in the existing police forces. Critics will find yet other parts of Srivastava's judgment deeply disconcerting. For instance, Srivastava declares that all religious faiths which had their origins in India are part of that amorphous body now known as 'Hinduism', and among these he includes Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism and the Kabir Panth. Adherents of these religions are thus sought to be effectively robbed of their separate identity through this arbitrary and hegemonic definition of Hinduism, as Srivastava reduces them to mere branches of the Hindu faith. Equally contentious is Srivastava's announcement that 'the Bhagwad Geeta is a Dharma Shastra of India', and that it is 'the duty of [the] State to recognize this text as the 'National Dharma Shastra'. The judge's convoluted and puerile logic leads him to argue that, "As India has recognized (sic.) National Flag, National Bird, National Anthem and National Flower, 'Bhagvad Geeta' may also be considered as (sic.) National (Rashtriya) Dharma Shastra'. To back this clearly unwarranted argument, Srivastava claimed that the Gita is 'universal' in its message and is not confined to Hinduism alone. He added that the Gita 'inspired our national struggle and (sic.) all walks of life'. This struggle he identified as an alleged collective Hindu movement against 'foreign' (read 'Muslim' and other 'non-Hindu') invaders 'right from the day of invasion of (sic.) Mir Qasim on (sic.) India in 712 to 1947'. ' He quoted from various authors, foreign as well as 'upper' caste Hindu, to proclaim what he described as the alleged greatness of the Gita. He even went so far as to declare that all Indians must follow the Gita. Thus, he pronounced, "[I]t is the duty of every citizen of India […] irrespective of caste, creed or religion to follow (sic.) Dharm propounded by 'Bhagwad Geeta'". The absurdity of these declarations is, of course, plainly obvious. The argument that the Gita inspired India's national struggle reflects a dominant and hegemonic form of Indian nationalism that equates it with Brahminical Hinduism, leaving out the scores of Indian freedom fighters, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Dalits, Hindu skeptics, rationalists and atheists, for whom the Gita did not serve as a source of inspiration at all. It also clearly reflects the Hindutva understanding of Indian history, wherein the centuries of rule by Turks, Afghans and Mughals are described as a long period of 'slavery' of the Hindus, who are equated with Indians in general. Non-Hindus are thus effectively denied any space in this definition of the Indian nation. In his passionate glorification of the Gita, Srivastava conveniently remained silent on one of its basic aims—the preservation and promotion of the horrendous caste system. The Gita defines dharma according to the varna or caste of a person, determined by birth, and thereby sanctifies the caste system that has consigned the vast majority of Indians to the status of 'low' caste Shudras and Ati-Shudras. This point has been amply dealt with by critical historians as well as by numerous Dalit-Shudra leaders, such as Babasaheb Ambedkar, the framer of the Indian Constitution, and Mahatma Jotiba Phule, in their various writings. Srivastava's plea that the Gita be made the 'National Dharma Shastra' of India can thus be construed as a thinly veiled argument for making the caste system the law of the land. His ardent advocacy of Brahminical mythology led Srivastava to make the bizarre claim that 'It has come in Geeta that the (sic.) God has given the theory of Karmayog to Surya [the Sun] and from Surya to the (sic.) Manu, and from Manu to other highly revered saints'. 'It is now settled', Srivastava declared, 'that the Sun is the source of all human being (sic.) and also that entire (sic.) world and also source of energy to (sic.) all creations (sic.) of man kind (sic.) and source of life on earth'. Srivastava's eulogies to Manu, the putative architect of the barbaric caste system, can well be said to be an open defiance of the principles of equality enshrined in the Indian Constitution. And by defending a fanciful Brahminical myth as gospel truth he has clearly violated the principle of secularism. Clearly, Srivastava seems better cut out as a temple pujari than as a high court judge. In advocating that all Indians must 'follow (sic.) Dharm propounded by 'Bhagwad Geeta'" Srivastava makes a complete mockery of the pillar of secularism on which the Indian Constitution, which the judiciary is sworn to protect, is based. Srivastava's glorification of the Gita, the Bible of Brahminism, leads him on to terrain on which, clearly, he is unqualified to comment—defining religious 'truth' and the way other religions and their adherents must see themselves. This constitutes yet another clear breach of secularism. He speaks as ardent advocate of Brahminism, rather than as a judge, when he declares that 'Theory (sic.) of Bhagwat Geeta speaks about internal and external truth'. While Srivastava is entitled to hold his own views on the veracity or otherwise of the Gita in his personal capacity, surely it is not in his right to define ultimate religious truth for others in his capacity as a judge. By pronouncing that the Gita 'is a guiding force for all the religions', he makes a clearly unwarranted claim, for he is no divinely-guided prophet to dictate how other religions should be 'guided'. His announcement that 'The true essence of all the religions in world (sic.) are echos (sic.) of Geeta' is equally ridiculous, reflecting the deeply-entrenched Brahminical ethos that seeks to reduce all other religions to its alleged derivatives. Srivastava retired five days after delivering his absurd judgment, but that is not likely to be the end of this sordid story. Clearly, his judgment might well serve as an incentive or precedent to other similarly-minded judges to pass similarly outrageous decrees in the future. In the name of defending the Constitution, clearly Srivastava has undermined it, making a complete mockery of its commitment to secularism, social justice and equality for all Indian citizens. ============================================================= This article is based on the uncertified copy of Srivastava's judgment hosted on the Allahabad High Court's website. For details, see http://www.allahabadhighcourt.in/ejurix/servlet/WebViewJudgement?casetype=WRIC&caseno=56447&year=2003&judgementdate=30/08/2007 -- Sukhia Sab Sansar Khaye Aur Soye Dukhia Das Kabir Jagey Aur Roye The world is 'happy', eating and sleeping The forlorn Kabir Das is awake and weeping From ysikand at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 11:18:26 2007 From: ysikand at gmail.com (Yogi Sikand) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:18:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?My_Iran_Diary=97Part_3?= Message-ID: <48097acc0709152248o5a3cac95i2754ed537b73248d@mail.gmail.com> My Iran Diary—Part 3 Yoginder Sikand After President Ahmadinejad departs from the hall and the tea-break is over, the conference resumes. Numerous Ayatollahs ascend to the podium in turn, making roughly the same point about the expected return of the Imam Mahdi from his long period of occultation, being physically present in the world although unknown and unseen by all save for those whom he is in direct communion with. When he reappears, the audience is assured, all forms of injustice will be put an end to. Outside the hall but within the premises of the vast auditorium complex, a book exhibition has been put up. Several publishing companies, private as well as state-funded, have set up stalls selling or distributing literature to do with the Imam Mahdi, besides other themes related to the Shia version of Islam. Only a few have any literature in English, these being, with some exceptions, embarrassing attempts at literal translation from the Persian. That saves me the temptation, to which I normally immediately yield, of buying any books. Instead, I purchase a few posters bearing intricately-etched religious slogans in calligraphic style in Persian and Arabic. The organizers have not given us a programme schedule as yet. I wonder how, with so many invitees present, all of us will be able to make our presentations in less than a day and a half. I spot an information desk put up by the conference organizers at one end of the book exhibition. I approach the young men sitting there and ask them when my paper is scheduled for. It so transpires that they speak not a word of English. They smile and shake their heads at me. I have no idea what that means. I use the Urdu/Persian words for 'conference' and 'paper'. 'Von minat', one of the men answers blankly. He taps away earnestly at his lap-top. Five minutes later he announces, 'You no paper in here'. I am perplexed. Does he mean that information about my paper is not available on his computer? Or does he mean that my paper is not to be presented at the conference? I shudder at the latter prospect. After all, I have spent over a fortnight wading through reams of dreadfully boring propaganda material produced by the advocates of the fake Pakistani Mahdi, Riaz Goharshahi, to write my paper for the conference. 'You must vaiting. Vee must ask confarance organiser', the young man informs me. I entertain myself reading my Iran guidebook till the ongoing session of the conference concludes an hour later. It's lunch time now, and the audience streams out of the hall into a large waiting room adjacent to it, where they settle down in rows on the carpets that have been laid out. Thermacol boxes containing chicken pilau and little plastic cups of yoghurt are distributed by energetic volunteers. I had hoped to be able to meet one of the conference organizers to find out about my paper, but the few I can spot are busy confabulating among themselves and with turbanned clerics. Perhaps, I think, I might be able to meet one of them after lunch. But that is rendered impossible as it is prayer time now, and they and the participants arrange themselves in rows and commence their worship. No sooner is that over than siesta hour is announced. The organizers and guests from abroad file into a waiting bus that takes them to the hotel where they are staying for an hour of what I think is undeserved rest, while the others spread themselves out on the carpets on which they have just had their lunch and doze off to sleep. You could hardly blame me for being uncontrollably irritated. No announcement has been made as to when the siesta hour gets over and when the conferences commences again. Understandably annoyed, I decide to skip the afternoon session of the conference. I skim through my guide book. Tehran, it indicates, is a sprawling city, so, given the fact that I have scheduled for myself only a day here, I have to be choosy about the places I can visit. The guidebook mentions that there are relatively few historical monuments in Tehran, which is really what I am interested in. It speaks of numerous museums that dot the town, most of these being vast palaces owned by the thankfully overthrown Shah of Iran. It describes in considerable detail the astronomically expensive artifacts that these museums boast of, mostly the personal effects of the late Iranian dictator which he failed to cart along with him when he fled the country in the wake of the Islamic Revolution in 1979. It also mentions that entrance fees to these museums are prohibitively expensive, too. For both reasons, I decide to drop the museums from my itinerary. Besides the vehicles designated as taxis, every car in Tehran can serve the same function as a cab, or so it seems. Pedestrians can flag down just about any car, haggle with the driver over the price, and, if the car is heading in the same direction that one wants to go, can get in and be dropped off. I hail a passing car and asked to be taken to the Imamzada Saleh. This enormous structure at one edge of north Tehran houses the tomb of a son of one of the twelve Shia Imams. Its entrance as well as the walls inside are decorated with literally thousands of tiny turquoise blue tiles, which have been fitted together to make exquisite geometrical designs and verses from the Quran. This structure is by no means unique. Most Iranian mosques and shrine complexes, particularly the older ones, look almost identical. I enter the tomb complex, which is packed with pilgrims imploring the scion of the Imam for his help or offering prayers for his soul. I settle on the carpeted floor and watch the pilgrims prostrate, placing their heads on little tablets of clay in the Shia fashion. I get talking to a handsome young man who sits next to me. He recognizes me as an Indian and says 'Hello'. He tells me that he studies at a college in Chandigarh and that he is back home for his summer vacations. We bond immediately. He takes me out and insists I should have an ice-cream. He pushes a packet of pistachios into my hand as we exchange email addresses and depart. Summers in Iran can be almost as unbearable as in India, I learn to my surprise. Tehran in early September is almost as oppressively hot as Delhi. I treat myself to two more ice creams to temporarily escape the heat. I then seek refuge under a giant Chinar tree in a park opposite the shrine, where numerous families are picnicking, an apparently favourite Iranian pastime. My guidebook mentions that the house that was used by the late Imam Khomeini is not far from where I presently am. After I've relaxed for an hour, I force myself up. I ask directions and am given directions to a bus–stop from where I can get a vehicle to take me to where I want to go. The traffic is thick and incessant, and I wait helplessly to cross. Noticing my consternation, a man comes up to me, takes me gently by the arm, flays his hands about at the advancing cars and deposits me safely at the bus-stop across the road. He then wades his way back through the traffic and waves out to me when he reaches the other side. Iranians, on the whole, are a very friendly and helpful people. Such acts of courtesy as this I am to witness throughout my week-long stay in the country. Each time this happens to me, my blood boils when I think of the falsity of the venomous propaganda about Iran and its people so sedulously cultivated by the Western and Indian media. The bus drops me off at a crossing, and the driver indicates that I must walk up a lane to get to the Imam's residence. A few steps ahead I stop and ask a woman driving a car where exactly to proceed. Modestly clad, she seems to be in her early thirties. Sitting next to her is an elderly woman, perhaps her mother. Two little girls, probably her daughters, are in the rear seat. To my pleasant surprise, the woman asks me to hop into the car and offers to take me to where I want to go. I am overwhelmed by this gesture of kindness—a woman offering a total stranger a lift in her car. This would probably neither happen in India nor certainly in the West. So much for the media's hate-Iran propaganda. The Imam's house is located in a lower middle class locality in north Tehran. This was where he settled—a modest, indeed austere, two-roomed tenement—after his triumphant return from exile in France in 1979 following the fall of the US-backed deadly dictator, Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran. The house is now a museum of sorts. Although visitors cannot enter inside, one of its two rooms can be seen from the outside. Hardly ten metres in length and in breath, the room contains a simple cot, some little decoration pieces placed on an alcove and a mirror. This is where, the guard on duty tells me, the Imam would meet visiting dignitaries and from where he ran the affairs of the entire country. Adjacent to the house is a Hussainiyah, a sort of mosque, where the Ayatollah would deliver sermons and interact with members of the public. 'Imam Khomeini is a Reality that Shall Always Live', announces a banner in Farsi stretched across the wall. The basement of the Hussainiyah now hosts a museum commemorating the Imam. It contains an interesting collection of photographs depicting various scenes from his life, some of his personal artifacts and even note books containing his Sufi poetic creations etched in very delicate Persian calligraphy. The friendly museum caretaker hands me a collection of works by the Ayatollah in English and Urdu. It's free of cost, he informs me when I ask him how much I need to pay. I depart from the museum, hoping to relax at a roadside coffee-shop, but am informed by a friendly guard at the exit that there are none in this locality. He indicates a kettle nestled on a stove kept on a shelf in a nearby room that spews out little clouds of smoke. He hands me a cup of delicious milk-less tea and we exchange a few Farsi/Urdu words. I then make my way back to the hotel, nervous that I might have missed my presentation, and dreading what might transpire if that has actually happened. From ameeyadas at yahoo.co.in Sun Sep 16 14:02:52 2007 From: ameeyadas at yahoo.co.in (Amiya Das) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:32:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] invitation to a talk by Gail Omvedt In-Reply-To: <48097acc0709130216l7e2cc5abm7cf899f1eae4e910@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <960411.30318.qm@web8406.mail.in.yahoo.com> Society for Social Research Invites you for a Special Lecture By Gail Omvedt Eminent Sociologist and Activist On SUBALTERN SOCIOLOGICAL VISIONS Date: 20th SEPTEMBER, 2007(Thursday) Time: 11.00 A.M. Venue: Room No: 1, Ground Floor DEPARTMENT OF SOCIOLOGY, Delhi School of Economics, University of Delhi --------------------------------- DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. From shveta at sarai.net Sun Sep 16 14:22:34 2007 From: shveta at sarai.net (Shveta) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 14:22:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] STOP etc In-Reply-To: <830885.2670.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <830885.2670.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46ECEED2.2070605@sarai.net> Rahul Asthana wrote: > I find > my faculties of expression inadequate to connect to > passionate people in general and ladies in > particular;so I had taken a break. Very few women have participated in the few threads that have dominated the list in the last few weeks. But violation of women's body has been a recurring lietmotif and shorthand for creating an impression about suffering. Or as a metaphor for explaining the vulnerable borders of territory and community. And what sense can we make of the above comment? - Women should speak and write in a way that is appropiate to some already given sensibility of speech. Cool. When in trouble in arguments lets talk through her body and when confronted with speech say I cannot take it! ... and these are all people who claim they are going to bring in a better and ethical world. In a way lists are fairly revelatory of implicit acceptances... & are private mail abuses to women list subscribers not a clear sign of how recklessly these implicits can be performed without any check or restraint, and very assured that there will be no consequence to it? best shveta From anjalisaga at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Sep 16 14:29:40 2007 From: anjalisaga at blueyonder.co.uk (Anjalika Sagar) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:59:40 +0300 Subject: [Reader-list] STOP etc In-Reply-To: <46ECEED2.2070605@sarai.net> References: <830885.2670.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46ECEED2.2070605@sarai.net> Message-ID: <46ECF07C.8020802@blueyonder.co.uk> Hi All, Well I have not participated for this very reason... Men grandstand with language here - something that is rather tedious albeit of course so wonderful at times to read. I would advise more openess and tolerance towards all those who have not been so lucky as to have the kind of education that clearly some people have. Basically - be a bit more punk rock - and forget about the father ... think about communicating... this isnt some Victorian salon is it ? bests anj Shveta wrote: > Rahul Asthana wrote: > >> I find >> my faculties of expression inadequate to connect to >> passionate people in general and ladies in >> particular;so I had taken a break. >> > > > Very few women have participated in the few threads that have dominated > the list in the last few weeks. > > But violation of women's body has been a recurring lietmotif and > shorthand for creating an impression about suffering. Or as a metaphor > for explaining the vulnerable borders of territory and community. > > And what sense can we make of the above comment? - Women should speak > and write in a way that is appropiate to some already given sensibility > of speech. Cool. When in trouble in arguments lets talk through her body > and when confronted with speech say I cannot take it! ... and these are > all people who claim they are going to bring in a better and ethical world. > > In a way lists are fairly revelatory of implicit acceptances... & are > private mail abuses to women list subscribers not a clear sign of how > recklessly these implicits can be performed without any check or > restraint, and very assured that there will be no consequence to it? > > best > shveta > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From adityarajkaul at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 14:33:05 2007 From: adityarajkaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 14:33:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Pandit's open wound by Iftikhar Gilani Message-ID: *Iftikhar Gilani* is a well-known senior Kashmiri journalist based in New Delhi. He is the Bureau Chief in New Delhi of Kashmir Times and also writes columns for various newspapers of national and international repute. The Pandit's open wound *Iftikhar Gilani* Bitta Karate, who murdered dozens of Kashmiri Pandits, walked out of court laughing this month when another attempt to convict him failed. It wasn't his victory, but the failure of the Indian state One winter evening, late in 1989, a zooming Ambassador slowed down in the Chanakhan locality of Sopore town. A person wearing a Kashmiri gown (phern), apparently a Pandit, was thrown out and gun shots rent the air. The bleeding person had not lost his senses. Holding his bullet wounds he crawled to take shelter under a closed shop. Lawlessness had taken over the Kashmir Valley. Nobody would listen to anything but Azadi, to achieve which it was necessary to clear the Valley of "informers" and leaders having the potential to "sell-out". The man who lay dying slowly of bullet wounds was crying for water in his feeble voice. But the people of the neighbourhood, who were used to being hauled off by the security forces for harbouring anybody deemed a "militant" were in no mood to help. Instead of rushing to his rescue, they carried him by his arms and legs and tossed him into the Jhelum river which flowed nearby. That ended his misery. Till date, nobody has any answers for this strange behaviour -- a summary execution of sorts. The only explanation given was that the dead man used to live in a nearby village. He was a Kashmiri Pandit who had been kidnapped for providing information about militants to the security agencies. A contrast came a few months after this incident in a nearby Sofi Hamam locality, when militants raided the homes of Pandits in broad daylight. Almost all Pandit families had left for Jammu by then, barring a young boy. Ashok, who had stayed back for some unknown reasons. Militants believed he was helping the security forces by pinpointing targets. People literally gheraoed the whole locality and shoed the militants away. But, in the dead of night, they returned. This time, they cut off the roof of the house to drag out Ashok. After few days his dead body was found on the banks of river Jhelum. The neighbours of the Pandits for centuries, the Muslims of Kashmir Valley were not particularly happy about the killings of Pandits. On occasions they remonstrated the militants. Even today, the full separatist spectrum consisting of hardliner Syed Ali Geelani to moderate Yasin Malik recognise the Pandits as part of Kashmiri society. Their migration out of the Valley has disturbed Kashmiri society, they admit. At the start of armed movement in 1989, strategists in both India and Pakistan disallowed any Kashmiri leader to take the centre-stage, which could have at least controlled the events. While India detained leaders, militant groups at the behest of Pakistani agencies launched a venomous campaign against them. They even resisted staunch pro-Pakistan Kashmiri leaders to ensure that the levers of control were with Islamabad and to avoid the re-emergence of a Sheikh Abdullah. Baring some honourable exceptions, this vacuum got to be filled by ruffians and street stalkers who had procured guns. They began to regard themselves as leaders and *mujahid*s. They killed more civilians than they confronted the security forces. Among such characters, Farooq Ahmed Dar, alias Bitta Karate, emerged as one of top leaders of the Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF). The then Governor, Mr Jagmohan, later wrote in justification of the detention of traditional leaders and providing ascendancy to the elements in the JKLF: "I wanted to weaken the hold of the fanatics and fundamentalists, and also the pro-Pakistani groups by facilitating the ascendancy of those elements in the J&K Liberation Front who had the latent disposition to be moderate and whom I could subsequently tackle to accept my idea of security real freedom for the Kashmiri masses, within the larger framework of the Indian Constitution." But, on Bitta Karate's emergence, Mr Jagmohan's policy went all wrong. Blamed by the Pandit community for a string of killings of its members, Bitta Karate walked free on October 27, 2006, after 16 years of incarceration. An anti-terror court while granted him bail, argued that there was "no justification in continuation of his incarceration when other co-accused facing the same allegations are enjoying fruits of liberty". Earlier, in 2001, Justice GD Sharma of the State High Court had ordered the transfer the cases against this notorious killer of the Pandits to Jammu. Farooq Ahmed Dar, against whom 23 FIRs -- mostly related to murder -- had been lodged, was a martial arts practitioner. That gained him fame as "Bitta Karate". What earned him the wrath of Pandits was the "confessional statement" run by the official media soon after his arrest, in which he accepted his role in the killings. Even the separatists and the dominant JKLF faction-led Mohammad Yasin Malik never espoused his cause, or even asked for his release for several years because of the negative image he had earned. Since then, there has been stiff opposition to his release, prompting the Government to repeatedly slap the Public Safety Act (PSA) -- a preventive detention law that provides for detention without trial for a maximum of two years -- on him. Each time the term expired, it was renewed. Despite filing various cases against Karate for the killing of 30 Pandits in 1990 and creating a fear psychosis, the State Government failed to file a chargesheet against him. His release may be treated as a failure of our criminal justice system. The Pandit community, which is now thronging the streets seeking his re-arrest, failed to provide a single witness against Karate in the court of law. There can be no excuse of lack of security, because the trial was going on in a special court in Jammu, where witnesses could have felt much safer. The State Government, too, totally relied on the invocation of the Public Safety Act (PSA) rather than resorting to investigations and procuring witnesses for convictions. For over two decades the rampant use of the PSA with ease quite dampened the investigation capabilities of the Jammu & Kashmir Police. It is used on all and sundry, from timber smugglers to terrorists, because the PSA is such a short-cut to the end of the troubles of the police force. The policemen have become lazy, for no longer are demands of securing prosecution placed on them. It has not only completely shattered the investigating machinery of the State police, but the law also falls short of the fundamental requirements of justice. There is no such concept as equality before Law. The police could rest assured that there was no need to present an accused person before a magistrate, what to talk of looking for witnesses to examine. Bitta Karate eluded justice because the criminal justice system in Jammu & Kashmir is quite dead. The State's failure to bring to justice a mass murderer and ethnic cleanser like him should not be viewed in narrow terms. It is high time the security agencies are reminded of the fundamental duty of their craft - to secure convictions. --* The writer is a noted expert on Kashmir issues* Thanks *-- Aditya Raj Kaul Blog: www.kauladityaraj.blogspot.com Campaign Blog: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com RIK Website: www.rootsinkashmir.org US Website: www.unitedstudents.in* From meenamenon at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 16:30:08 2007 From: meenamenon at gmail.com (meena menon) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:30:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] In Cold Blood Message-ID: <57ad49a60709160400r263cfabcn93727d2ec44ac014@mail.gmail.com> Sarai 2007 seventh posting Hi everyone, This is my seventh posting for the Sarai Independent Fellowship 2007. I wish to clarify that the last time when I wrote about Farooq Mapkar's case it was my sixth and not fifth posting. While I have been writing on specific cases of people, I have also gathered material about people leaving their homes after the riots and going to live in different places. One such ghetto is Naya nagar in Bhayander outside Mumbai and the other one is Mumbra, both in Thane district. I hope to write on that soon. I also find that there is no specific pattern to this change of residence as in some places people have stayed back even though they are in a minority while in other cases, they have moved out en masse. However, there have been changes in a variety of ways in perceptions and the levels of fear and insecurity have increased. The anger is mostly directed towards the police and in the story below, it is clear why. There is also a feeling of deep rooted injustice and widespread skepticism that little will come of reviving the riot cases. Many Muslims who chose to live in cosmopolitan areas now prefer to live with their own community and this has happened to Hindus too. However, that is not a universal theory as there are some people I met who are not happy with staying in a ghetto. While people have been very helpful and cooperative in my research, they always ask if anything will come of this. They tell me that I am wasting their time and making them remember their unhappy past. But at the same time, they are ready to share their experiences because that is still uppermost in their minds. Most of them are struggling even now to come to terms with what has happened and when they speak about the incidents, it was as if they happened yesterday. This posting is on Tahir Hasanmiya Wagle who lost his son in the riots. Best Meena meenamenon at gmail.com In Cold Blood As you enter Tahir Wagle's pink- walled house, the photograph of young Shahnawaz stares at you from the corner of a framed calendar. He was an eleventh standard science student of Elphinstone college when he was shot dead, watched by his mother and sister below his house at Pathan Chawl behind the Ehle-e-Hadees Masjid in Mazagaon in South Mumbai. His father Tahir Wagle has spent the last 14 years trying to file a case against the policemen who killed his son. Wagle stands in his balcony on the second floor and points down. "See this is where he was shot. My daughter could see the whole thing from here," he says. Below there is a narrow passage between his building and the mosque. The passage curves down to the main road. "In this country, those who shoot deer get punished, not those who kill human beings. *Insaan se jyada hiran ko keemat hai* (Deer have more value than human beings). My son's status is lower than that of a deer. I have yet to get any answers from the police after all these years. They say my son was a terrorist and was indulging in rioting," says Wagle. Wagle wanted his son to join the merchant navy, like his grandfather. "I had told him go to London and appear for his exams," he says. He had two daughters, one of them died in 1983 in a drowning accident in Ratnagiri. The other daughter Yasmin was eye witness to the killing of her brother. Wagle was away on the day the incident happened. On the morning of January 10, 1993, a huge posse of policemen entered Pathan chawl and rounded up 70 odd men. Shahnawaz was pulled out of his house and taken down by the police. Yasmin, then 18, and her mother screamed for help and from their balcony, they saw the police putting a bullet into the boy. They ran down but by then the van had moved away, leaving behind a pool of blood. Wagle on his return went to Byculla police station and claimed his son's body. "They had dredged out the bullet from his head, so that there is no evidence," he says. He went repeatedly to lodge a complaint but no one was willing at Byculla police station. "They always fobbed me off saying my son was a rioter," he recalls. "Would they have given me 14 hours if I had killed a cop?" Now, with the revival of the riot cases, Wagle has submitted a letter to the Mumbai police which called him recently to record his statement in August end. "I know all the policemen who were there. They have all been promoted," he says. "At least their promotion should be stopped and a case should be registered against them," he demands. He is determined to fight for justice. "I know some day there will be a decision on this case. I have nothing else to do but carry on my struggle," says 58-year-old Wagle. The Srikrishna Commission's report on the Mumbai riots has this to say about the incident: "There is one incident which is very serious in the view of the Commission and amounts to cold blooded murder by the police. Between 11 to 11.30 hours on January 10, 1993, after having arrived at Pathan Chawl, the police forcibly entered the premises of the Muslims and started picking them up. They entered the residence of one Hasanmiya Wagle (Tahir), terrorized the wife of Hasanmiya and his daughter Yasmin at the point of rifle, picked up Hasanmiya's 16-year-old son Shahnawaz and dragged him out, all the while kicking him and assaulting him with rifle butts. Yasmin Hasan Wagle saw Shahnawaz being taken towards the police vehicle, when once of the constables standing behind him shot him from behind, almost at point blank range. Immediately, the policemen dragged the body by the feet and dumped it in the vehicle and took it away. Yasmin and her mother came down later and saw that the spot where Shahnawaz was shot down has a pool of blood." The Commission later accepted the evidence of Yasmin and also directed the Commissioner of Police to make an inquiry into this "grisly" incident. However, the Commission says that despite the overwhelming evidence which, in the opinion of the Commission clearly indicts the police for cold blooded murder of Shahnawaz, the Deputy Commissioner of Police assigned to conduct the inquiry, has adroitly white washed the affair and recorded the finding that the statement of two or three witnesses could not be safely relied on and that Yasmin or other witnesses had never reported the incident to the police. The inquiry report also said the evidence of Muslim witnesses was unreliable. Calling it a brazen cover up of what is virtually a cold blooded murder of a young boy, the Commission strongly felt this was a matter of which the government must take a very serious notice and have it investigated by an impartial agency and take strict action against the guilty persons. However, all these years after the submission of the Commission's report, the police did nothing. It is only now that Wagle's statement was recorded by the Byculla police station. Wagle's case is another classic example of inaction by the state government. Meanwhile on Friday September 14, the police have submitted a charge sheet against Farooq Mapkar about whom I wrote last time, in the Hari Masjid firing case. They have within a short span reinvestigated the case, got statements of witnesses and submitted all the statements to the lower court. Now the case will come up in October. Mapkar has also filed a writ in the high court demanding that a charge sheet be filed against the policemen involved in the Hari Masjid case, which will be heard on September 18. It is interesting to note that all those charged in the Hari Masjid case were acquitted except for Mapkar whose trial was separated. The government which was trying to keep mum on the riots is faced with all sorts of demands to revive, reopen and re investigate cases. In Wagle's case not even a first information report was registered despite repeated attempts. Where then is the question of investigation? The Commission has said that in the Hari Masjid case, the version of the police is unbelievable and has been fabricated to support the unjustified firing of large numbers of rounds which resulted in killing six Muslims. It also held a policeman Nikhil Kapse of unjustified firing and inhuman and brutal behaviour during the incident. Yet Kapse was given a clean chit by his senior officer and is still in service while Mapkar is facing the flak today. ENDS// -- Meena From fmadre at free.fr Sun Sep 16 16:38:36 2007 From: fmadre at free.fr (frdrcmdr) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 13:08:36 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] In Cold Blood In-Reply-To: <57ad49a60709160400r263cfabcn93727d2ec44ac014@mail.gmail.com> References: <57ad49a60709160400r263cfabcn93727d2ec44ac014@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46ED0EB4.30309@free.fr> meena menon a écrit : > Sarai 2007 seventh posting > > now that's what I call restraint f. From justjunaid at rediffmail.com Sun Sep 16 17:28:19 2007 From: justjunaid at rediffmail.com (junaid) Date: 16 Sep 2007 11:58:19 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir... Message-ID: <20070916115819.13339.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com>  I wonder how the mainstream Indian discourse on Kashmir has been internalized, so much that independence for Kashmir as a non-possibility is seen as natural and obvious. What is it that makes even the Indian Kashmir-sympathizers take anything-short-of-independence as axiomatic? Why can't anyone here make a reasonable, educated argument about why this should be the case? Do not speak of size, for Kashmir (valley) is definitely larger than many countries in the world. If you speak of its land-lockedness, then I can count you a number of European and Asian countries that are small and land-locked. If you speak of three Asian bullies—India, Pakistan and China—surrounding it, then I must say international treaties, bilateral non-aggression pacts, and Kashmir's neutrality will be Kashmir's best defense. Aren't so many small countries surviving, and actually doing well, with really no defense in place, but just goodwill and international norms? If you say, lack of economic self-reliance, then I will just point to the great natural and human resources in Kashmir. And if it is a unique case, then let it be a unique country in the world. Weak, Poor, and Defenceless. But a country whose people are the masters of their fate. If you are still stuck up on "anything-short-of..." argument then I must tell you Kashmiris really don’t give a damn. They fight for freedom, and they will surely learn how to handle it. Before British left Indian subcontinent, they used to make a similar argument. The Indian visionaries made the counter argument that you can't learn to love freedom and democracy unless you taste it. Although Indians have not come up to the expectations, and its elite--Brahmanical as well as corporate--have cozened and defrauded the lower castes and the poor, yet India is not doing that badly. Since Kashmir is not beset with so many contradictions like post-independence India, I guess it will outdo India in preserving freedom. Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 17:53:21 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:23:21 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Rhetorical Question Message-ID: Kshmendra, You can't really use my email to drive home a thesis about certain topics being ignored (in the melodramatic subject header "Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer"). I posted what was obviously a rhetorical question. A news report on an ultra-violent horror film, prefaced by my question "Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn?". It was pretty obvious that I was advocating censoring ultra-violent imagery in certain contexts. I think most people got what my position was. Thinking of two cases I dimly recall: - A year after Brett Easton Ellis' AMERICAN PSYCHO was released (which has some of the most noxiously violent, misogynist imagery on text, although at a distance of almost a decade, I recognize lot of it as satire-- but satire in extreme poor taste), a home was raided to catch a brutal murder, and the same book was found on the bedside table. - When two under-15 boys kidnapped an eught year old and strangled him to death (this happened, if I recall correctly, in England in the early 90s), a raid into their parents home discovered the film CHUCKY-- in which the malevolent spirit is in a disfigured doll, which looks like-- bingo-- an eight year old child. I have always argued that certain ultra-violent imagery can push certain persons over the edge into violent or copycat action. Therefore it should at the least be criticized, as hate speech is condemned. Because it directly encourages violence and murder. This point was pretty obvious from my one-line rhetorical question as well. So it was not really a question that was an orphan if left without "an answer". So no, I didn't "deserve" or need an answer. Shuddha wrote to me personally because he knows me personally. He even invited me to post his response on Sarai list, but I spaced and forgot. Basta ya, let's move on. > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer > To: shuddha at sarai.net > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: <214127.82974.qm at web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Shuddhabrata > > Your mail is addressed to me as an individual and therefore I shall equally courteously respond. Soon after though, in another mail you revert to "let us bunch them together" routine. > > It is interesting that some people who celebrate an individual's freedoms and thereby an individual's identity in this "intellectual community" should so readily chorus the "I see a mob, I see a mob, attack the mob" shouts irrespective of how varied the opinions, positions and arguments might be. Pick up one issue over which there might be strong disagreements and on that basis dismiss all else about anyone who might even remotely suggest himself/herself not subscribing to your views on any topic. Demonise them. No good should be seen in the devils by anyone, so cloud the scene with "They are a mob; They are a mob; Everyone must attack the mob". > > It was interesting to see someone like Rahul Asthana also (who in my opinion is one of the "decent" correspondents on this list) get clubbed (not by you) with the "mob" because he might have disagreed over some issue. "Rahul is a part of them, Rahul is a part of the mob, beware, you must see Rahul as part of the mob". Amusing. > > I see all of this as "intellectual cowardice" and a lack of "intellectual ethics". Those who find it convenient to see a "mob" end up becoming a "mob". It is sad because it includes some extremely sharp and bright intellect. Individual intellect however always sacrifices itself to the psyche of the "mob". > > Let me come to what your mail was essentially about. > > - Naeem asked a question in the room > - I did not see Naeem receiving an answer in the room > - Shuddha says he answered Naeem in private and explains why he did so > - No one in the room saw Naeem receive an answer in public for a question he asked in public > - As far as any member (including me) of the room is concerned, Naeem did not receive an answer. > > So Shuddha, there is no assumption on my part as far as that domain is concerned where the question was asked and where no answer was given. I am just a simple minded Horatio of simple philosophies of the apparent. > > Actually Shuddha, you of all the people should be able to appreciate that. I remember the rather facile but the distinctinctness and separateness with which you sought to aggressively define "public" and "private" spaces. > > I wonder now who should be the candidate for your threatening admonition of "watch it" and the pomposity in "...makes you (more than occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish." > > Shuddha your comment about me "Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions" might sound very telling but does not make me cringe (if it was meant to) simply because I was very interested in seeing what answers Naeem would receive. For me, the answers to that question from a "neutral" observer would only add perspectives to the discussion about "what" or "are there any at all" limits that can be considered for "individual" or "collective" freedom of expression. > > Thank you Shuddha for posting your response to Naeem. I saw the most significant part of your response in your words: > > """""" In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I would be willing to endorse the censorship of. > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people from watching them. > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above.""""""" > > You have very clearly given the examples and the reasoning. > > You have for one set of cases used the evaluating principle of "...... there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" Could hardly be put better. > > So, although both "regulation" and "censorship" may be restrictive of the individual's right to freedom of expression or of that of the collective, yet have to be taken on board as possible necessities for a variety of reasons in a variety of situations. > > Both "regulation" and "censorship" cannot be an "open licence". The areas where they can be applied, the bases of application and the extent of application has to be extremely carefully thought about. > > Without any doubt (in my mind), the "regulatory" or "censoring" actions have to be sincere, honest, should not over-step the allowed briefs and not seek to serve hidden agendas. > > Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" > > Shuddha, if my comments over your mail to Naeem seem like they misrepresent you, please do tell me (if you feel like doing so). Please make it specific and brief because you can very often be tediously boring and so convoluted that it defeats the purpose of making yourself understood, unless it is deliberately so strategised. > > In conclusion, your reference to "La La Land" is quite childish and hardly does credit to your intellect. Intellectual dishonesty. It was an expression used by me for specific reference to the attitude of "we do not care for the Nation, we do not believe in a Nation" (my own quote marks). It is hardly pertinent to this topic. Again, I see in it an attitude of "You are one of the mob, remember you spoke of La La Land. You must be attacked over it even if it has no bearing here" Sad attitude. > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Kshemendra, > > You said, > > "Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > "freedoms". No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this > "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer.The > bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer." > > As a matter of fact, I did. Though in doing so, I did not think I was > displaying anything by way of 'moral courage'. I thought I was simply > haveing an exchange about the circumstances in which I would countenance > or endorse, or at least not object to censorship. > > I answered Naeem off list. I wrote to him, personally, On the same day, > in less than four hours after Naeem had posted his query. I enclose > below (at the end of this post) the relevant excerpt from what I wrote > to him. > > (I hope Naeem will not object, and I apologize to Naeem, and to the list > for posting a private off-list conversation on the list, although it wa > provoked by an on-list query,for reasons of clarification, and > tangentially, to defend the honour, if you like, of 'La La Land'.) > > I did not think it necessary then to post this to the list because it > consists in the main, of a quotation from something that I had already > posted on the list, and that too recently, with some elaboration. I > thought it would be a tad repetitive. But anyway, since it makes my > position on censorship very clear,I am happy to include it, at the risk > of repetitiveness. > > Once again, Kshemendra, watch it. Don't be so hasty in the making of > assumptions about what other people might have done, or not have done. > Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent > of other peoples' actions and opinions makes you (more than > occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish. > > Take Care, don't stumble, don't rush, the surfaces you fall on are very > hard. 'La La Land' is not a gentle sort of place. > > Shuddha > > My reply to Naeem (with the time and date stamp) is below. > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: urgent > Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:55:51 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net > Organization: Sarai > To: Naeem Mohaiemen > References: > > Dear Naeem, > > ... I did write about what I would censor, some time back, in the > post titled 'The Attack on Taslima Nasrin in Hyderabad I' posted on the > 18th of August, and maybe it is pertinent to what you wrote and this is - > > "Similarly, if someone were to post photographic representations of > children or animals in a pornographic form on any web forum or any other > platform, I would call for its censorship, not because it is > pornographic but because its implies sexual actions with implicitly > unverifiable consent. Here, i would maintain that a drawn or written (as > opposed to photographic) representation would not qualify in my view for > censorship, though I would strongly criticse such a representation. > Similarly, I would personally call for the censorship of the snuff > videos of acts of beheading that jihadist groups in Iraq and elsewhere > in the world are so fond of displaying on internet forums, or the > photographic representations of hangings and public executions that the > fascist and totalitarian regimes in Iran and China sometimes put out > Not because I have a problem with the representation of violence per se, > but because in these cases the act of representation itself is a > violation of the liberty of those who are being killed. No one has asked > them (the executed) for their consent to have their beheading or hanging > put on public display. > > In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and > expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a > direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being > of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant > speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I > would be willing to endorse the censorship of." > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would > not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have > written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, > that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings > for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, > because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the > right to stop other people from watching them. > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and > m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want > to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict > censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above. > > Please post this argument if you find it necessary, I am a bit tired of > posting on the list by now. > > thanks > > Shuddha > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about "freedoms". > > > > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer. > > > > The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer. > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > PS: > > Dear Naeem > > > > It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting to make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from you, I will understand. > > > > KK From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 18:22:20 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 05:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Rhetorical Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <809957.28660.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Naeem In the referred to posting, in the footnote I requested your indulgence and my readiness to receive a sharp retort from you. I do apologise for my posting suggesting that you were not considered "deserving" of an answer. Very frankly, the rhetorical nature of your question did not register with me. Maybe that was aided by my desire to see what kind of answers it would receive. I must mention though that on the positive side it made me privy to some very well argued out guiding principles for "regulation" and "censorship" laid out by Shuddha. I regret it was at the cost of the "melodramatic subject header" using your name. Kshmendra Kaul PS: Is "basta ya" the equivalent of "let go of it"? In Bengali is it? Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: Kshmendra, You can't really use my email to drive home a thesis about certain topics being ignored (in the melodramatic subject header "Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer"). I posted what was obviously a rhetorical question. A news report on an ultra-violent horror film, prefaced by my question "Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn?". It was pretty obvious that I was advocating censoring ultra-violent imagery in certain contexts. I think most people got what my position was. Thinking of two cases I dimly recall: - A year after Brett Easton Ellis' AMERICAN PSYCHO was released (which has some of the most noxiously violent, misogynist imagery on text, although at a distance of almost a decade, I recognize lot of it as satire-- but satire in extreme poor taste), a home was raided to catch a brutal murder, and the same book was found on the bedside table. - When two under-15 boys kidnapped an eught year old and strangled him to death (this happened, if I recall correctly, in England in the early 90s), a raid into their parents home discovered the film CHUCKY-- in which the malevolent spirit is in a disfigured doll, which looks like-- bingo-- an eight year old child. I have always argued that certain ultra-violent imagery can push certain persons over the edge into violent or copycat action. Therefore it should at the least be criticized, as hate speech is condemned. Because it directly encourages violence and murder. This point was pretty obvious from my one-line rhetorical question as well. So it was not really a question that was an orphan if left without "an answer". So no, I didn't "deserve" or need an answer. Shuddha wrote to me personally because he knows me personally. He even invited me to post his response on Sarai list, but I spaced and forgot. Basta ya, let's move on. > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer > To: shuddha at sarai.net > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: <214127.82974.qm at web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Shuddhabrata > > Your mail is addressed to me as an individual and therefore I shall equally courteously respond. Soon after though, in another mail you revert to "let us bunch them together" routine. > > It is interesting that some people who celebrate an individual's freedoms and thereby an individual's identity in this "intellectual community" should so readily chorus the "I see a mob, I see a mob, attack the mob" shouts irrespective of how varied the opinions, positions and arguments might be. Pick up one issue over which there might be strong disagreements and on that basis dismiss all else about anyone who might even remotely suggest himself/herself not subscribing to your views on any topic. Demonise them. No good should be seen in the devils by anyone, so cloud the scene with "They are a mob; They are a mob; Everyone must attack the mob". > > It was interesting to see someone like Rahul Asthana also (who in my opinion is one of the "decent" correspondents on this list) get clubbed (not by you) with the "mob" because he might have disagreed over some issue. "Rahul is a part of them, Rahul is a part of the mob, beware, you must see Rahul as part of the mob". Amusing. > > I see all of this as "intellectual cowardice" and a lack of "intellectual ethics". Those who find it convenient to see a "mob" end up becoming a "mob". It is sad because it includes some extremely sharp and bright intellect. Individual intellect however always sacrifices itself to the psyche of the "mob". > > Let me come to what your mail was essentially about. > > - Naeem asked a question in the room > - I did not see Naeem receiving an answer in the room > - Shuddha says he answered Naeem in private and explains why he did so > - No one in the room saw Naeem receive an answer in public for a question he asked in public > - As far as any member (including me) of the room is concerned, Naeem did not receive an answer. > > So Shuddha, there is no assumption on my part as far as that domain is concerned where the question was asked and where no answer was given. I am just a simple minded Horatio of simple philosophies of the apparent. > > Actually Shuddha, you of all the people should be able to appreciate that. I remember the rather facile but the distinctinctness and separateness with which you sought to aggressively define "public" and "private" spaces. > > I wonder now who should be the candidate for your threatening admonition of "watch it" and the pomposity in "...makes you (more than occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish." > > Shuddha your comment about me "Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions" might sound very telling but does not make me cringe (if it was meant to) simply because I was very interested in seeing what answers Naeem would receive. For me, the answers to that question from a "neutral" observer would only add perspectives to the discussion about "what" or "are there any at all" limits that can be considered for "individual" or "collective" freedom of expression. > > Thank you Shuddha for posting your response to Naeem. I saw the most significant part of your response in your words: > > """""" In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I would be willing to endorse the censorship of. > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people from watching them. > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above.""""""" > > You have very clearly given the examples and the reasoning. > > You have for one set of cases used the evaluating principle of "...... there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" Could hardly be put better. > > So, although both "regulation" and "censorship" may be restrictive of the individual's right to freedom of expression or of that of the collective, yet have to be taken on board as possible necessities for a variety of reasons in a variety of situations. > > Both "regulation" and "censorship" cannot be an "open licence". The areas where they can be applied, the bases of application and the extent of application has to be extremely carefully thought about. > > Without any doubt (in my mind), the "regulatory" or "censoring" actions have to be sincere, honest, should not over-step the allowed briefs and not seek to serve hidden agendas. > > Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" > > Shuddha, if my comments over your mail to Naeem seem like they misrepresent you, please do tell me (if you feel like doing so). Please make it specific and brief because you can very often be tediously boring and so convoluted that it defeats the purpose of making yourself understood, unless it is deliberately so strategised. > > In conclusion, your reference to "La La Land" is quite childish and hardly does credit to your intellect. Intellectual dishonesty. It was an expression used by me for specific reference to the attitude of "we do not care for the Nation, we do not believe in a Nation" (my own quote marks). It is hardly pertinent to this topic. Again, I see in it an attitude of "You are one of the mob, remember you spoke of La La Land. You must be attacked over it even if it has no bearing here" Sad attitude. > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Kshemendra, > > You said, > > "Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > "freedoms". No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this > "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer.The > bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer." > > As a matter of fact, I did. Though in doing so, I did not think I was > displaying anything by way of 'moral courage'. I thought I was simply > haveing an exchange about the circumstances in which I would countenance > or endorse, or at least not object to censorship. > > I answered Naeem off list. I wrote to him, personally, On the same day, > in less than four hours after Naeem had posted his query. I enclose > below (at the end of this post) the relevant excerpt from what I wrote > to him. > > (I hope Naeem will not object, and I apologize to Naeem, and to the list > for posting a private off-list conversation on the list, although it wa > provoked by an on-list query,for reasons of clarification, and > tangentially, to defend the honour, if you like, of 'La La Land'.) > > I did not think it necessary then to post this to the list because it > consists in the main, of a quotation from something that I had already > posted on the list, and that too recently, with some elaboration. I > thought it would be a tad repetitive. But anyway, since it makes my > position on censorship very clear,I am happy to include it, at the risk > of repetitiveness. > > Once again, Kshemendra, watch it. Don't be so hasty in the making of > assumptions about what other people might have done, or not have done. > Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent > of other peoples' actions and opinions makes you (more than > occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish. > > Take Care, don't stumble, don't rush, the surfaces you fall on are very > hard. 'La La Land' is not a gentle sort of place. > > Shuddha > > My reply to Naeem (with the time and date stamp) is below. > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: urgent > Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:55:51 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net > Organization: Sarai > To: Naeem Mohaiemen > References: > > Dear Naeem, > > ... I did write about what I would censor, some time back, in the > post titled 'The Attack on Taslima Nasrin in Hyderabad I' posted on the > 18th of August, and maybe it is pertinent to what you wrote and this is - > > "Similarly, if someone were to post photographic representations of > children or animals in a pornographic form on any web forum or any other > platform, I would call for its censorship, not because it is > pornographic but because its implies sexual actions with implicitly > unverifiable consent. Here, i would maintain that a drawn or written (as > opposed to photographic) representation would not qualify in my view for > censorship, though I would strongly criticse such a representation. > Similarly, I would personally call for the censorship of the snuff > videos of acts of beheading that jihadist groups in Iraq and elsewhere > in the world are so fond of displaying on internet forums, or the > photographic representations of hangings and public executions that the > fascist and totalitarian regimes in Iran and China sometimes put out > Not because I have a problem with the representation of violence per se, > but because in these cases the act of representation itself is a > violation of the liberty of those who are being killed. No one has asked > them (the executed) for their consent to have their beheading or hanging > put on public display. > > In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and > expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a > direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being > of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant > speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I > would be willing to endorse the censorship of." > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would > not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have > written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, > that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings > for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, > because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the > right to stop other people from watching them. > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and > m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want > to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict > censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above. > > Please post this argument if you find it necessary, I am a bit tired of > posting on the list by now. > > thanks > > Shuddha > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about "freedoms". > > > > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer. > > > > The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer. > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > PS: > > Dear Naeem > > > > It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting to make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from you, I will understand. > > > > KK _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. From sen.gargi at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 18:49:57 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:49:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rhetorical Question In-Reply-To: <809957.28660.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you Khemendra. That was indeed a very gracious apology. Lets continue this tone in our conversations on this list and you know what, we might actually talk. I think Junaid is saying something very, very important. I think I can support that almost wholeheartedly. My only reservation though comes from violence. Violence of the freedom lovers and violence of the Indian military. What do you say? Gargi On 9/16/07 6:22 PM, "Kshmendra Kaul" wrote: > Dear Naeem In the referred to posting, in the footnote I requested your > indulgence and my readiness to receive a sharp retort from you. I do > apologise for my posting suggesting that you were not considered "deserving" > of an answer. Very frankly, the rhetorical nature of your question did not > register with me. Maybe that was aided by my desire to see what kind of > answers it would receive. I must mention though that on the positive side > it made me privy to some very well argued out guiding principles for > "regulation" and "censorship" laid out by Shuddha. I regret it was at the cost > of the "melodramatic subject header" using your name. Kshmendra Kaul PS: > Is "basta ya" the equivalent of "let go of it"? In Bengali is it? > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: Kshmendra, You can't > really use my email to drive home a thesis about certain topics being ignored > (in the melodramatic subject header "Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an > answer"). I posted what was obviously a rhetorical question. A news report on > an ultra-violent horror film, prefaced by my question "Could it be, that even > now, there are certain lines to be drawn?". It was pretty obvious that I was > advocating censoring ultra-violent imagery in certain contexts. I think most > people got what my position was. Thinking of two cases I dimly recall: - A > year after Brett Easton Ellis' AMERICAN PSYCHO was released (which has some of > the most noxiously violent, misogynist imagery on text, although at a distance > of almost a decade, I recognize lot of it as satire-- but satire in extreme > poor taste), a home was raided to catch a brutal murder, and the same book was > found on the bedside table. - When two under-15 boys kidnapped an eught year > old and strangled him to death (this happened, if I recall correctly, in > England in the early 90s), a raid into their parents home discovered the film > CHUCKY-- in which the malevolent spirit is in a disfigured doll, which looks > like-- bingo-- an eight year old child. I have always argued that certain > ultra-violent imagery can push certain persons over the edge into violent or > copycat action. Therefore it should at the least be criticized, as hate speech > is condemned. Because it directly encourages violence and murder. This point > was pretty obvious from my one-line rhetorical question as well. So it was not > really a question that was an orphan if left without "an answer". So no, I > didn't "deserve" or need an answer. Shuddha wrote to me personally because he > knows me personally. He even invited me to post his response on Sarai list, > but I spaced and forgot. Basta ya, let's move on. > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer > To: > shuddha at sarai.net > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > <214127.82974.qm at web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Shuddhabrata > > Your mail is addressed to me as > an individual and therefore I shall equally courteously respond. Soon after > though, in another mail you revert to "let us bunch them together" routine. > > > It is interesting that some people who celebrate an individual's freedoms > and thereby an individual's identity in this "intellectual community" should > so readily chorus the "I see a mob, I see a mob, attack the mob" shouts > irrespective of how varied the opinions, positions and arguments might be. > Pick up one issue over which there might be strong disagreements and on that > basis dismiss all else about anyone who might even remotely suggest > himself/herself not subscribing to your views on any topic. Demonise them. No > good should be seen in the devils by anyone, so cloud the scene with "They are > a mob; They are a mob; Everyone must attack the mob". > > It was interesting > to see someone like Rahul Asthana also (who in my opinion is one of the > "decent" correspondents on this list) get clubbed (not by you) with the "mob" > because he might have disagreed over some issue. "Rahul is a part of them, > Rahul is a part of the mob, beware, you must see Rahul as part of the mob". > Amusing. > > I see all of this as "intellectual cowardice" and a lack of > "intellectual ethics". Those who find it convenient to see a "mob" end up > becoming a "mob". It is sad because it includes some extremely sharp and > bright intellect. Individual intellect however always sacrifices itself to the > psyche of the "mob". > > Let me come to what your mail was essentially about. > > > - Naeem asked a question in the room > - I did not see Naeem receiving an > answer in the room > - Shuddha says he answered Naeem in private and explains > why he did so > - No one in the room saw Naeem receive an answer in public for > a question he asked in public > - As far as any member (including me) of the > room is concerned, Naeem did not receive an answer. > > So Shuddha, there is > no assumption on my part as far as that domain is concerned where the question > was asked and where no answer was given. I am just a simple minded Horatio of > simple philosophies of the apparent. > > Actually Shuddha, you of all the > people should be able to appreciate that. I remember the rather facile but the > distinctinctness and separateness with which you sought to aggressively define > "public" and "private" spaces. > > I wonder now who should be the candidate > for your threatening admonition of "watch it" and the pomposity in "...makes > you (more than occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish." > > Shuddha > your comment about me "Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient > surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions" might sound very > telling but does not make me cringe (if it was meant to) simply because I was > very interested in seeing what answers Naeem would receive. For me, the > answers to that question from a "neutral" observer would only add perspectives > to the discussion about "what" or "are there any at all" limits that can be > considered for "individual" or "collective" freedom of expression. > > Thank > you Shuddha for posting your response to Naeem. I saw the most significant > part of your response in your words: > > """""" In each of these cases, i > would call for the regulation of speech and expression because I believe that > in each of these cases there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or > liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely > attributed to the relevant speech act. And these are the only forms of speech > or expression that I would be willing to endorse the censorship of. > > My > personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would not > censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have written > about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that spells out > what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong content. If > they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such material > disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people from > watching them. > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of > rough s and m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who > want to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > If it were non > fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict censorship, for the > reasons I have spelt out above.""""""" > > You have very clearly given the > examples and the reasoning. > > You have for one set of cases used the > evaluating principle of "...... there is a direct harm to the life, or health, > or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely > attributed to the relevant speech act" Could hardly be put better. > > So, > although both "regulation" and "censorship" may be restrictive of the > individual's right to freedom of expression or of that of the collective, yet > have to be taken on board as possible necessities for a variety of reasons in > a variety of situations. > > Both "regulation" and "censorship" cannot be an > "open licence". The areas where they can be applied, the bases of application > and the extent of application has to be extremely carefully thought about. > > > Without any doubt (in my mind), the "regulatory" or "censoring" actions have > to be sincere, honest, should not over-step the allowed briefs and not seek to > serve hidden agendas. > > Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO > should lay down these standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' > Institutions should be involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be > considered for application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct > harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or > persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" > > Shuddha, > if my comments over your mail to Naeem seem like they misrepresent you, please > do tell me (if you feel like doing so). Please make it specific and brief > because you can very often be tediously boring and so convoluted that it > defeats the purpose of making yourself understood, unless it is deliberately > so strategised. > > In conclusion, your reference to "La La Land" is quite > childish and hardly does credit to your intellect. Intellectual dishonesty. It > was an expression used by me for specific reference to the attitude of "we do > not care for the Nation, we do not believe in a Nation" (my own quote marks). > It is hardly pertinent to this topic. Again, I see in it an attitude of "You > are one of the mob, remember you spoke of La La Land. You must be attacked > over it even if it has no bearing here" Sad attitude. > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Kshemendra, > > You said, > > "Ten > days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > would > Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > "freedoms". > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this > "intellectual > community" thought the question deserved an answer.The > bunch of 'La La Land" > hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer." > > As a matter of fact, > I did. Though in doing so, I did not think I was > displaying anything by way > of 'moral courage'. I thought I was simply > haveing an exchange about the > circumstances in which I would countenance > or endorse, or at least not > object to censorship. > > I answered Naeem off list. I wrote to him, > personally, On the same day, > in less than four hours after Naeem had posted > his query. I enclose > below (at the end of this post) the relevant excerpt > from what I wrote > to him. > > (I hope Naeem will not object, and I apologize > to Naeem, and to the list > for posting a private off-list conversation on the > list, although it wa > provoked by an on-list query,for reasons of > clarification, and > tangentially, to defend the honour, if you like, of 'La > La Land'.) > > I did not think it necessary then to post this to the list > because it > consists in the main, of a quotation from something that I had > already > posted on the list, and that too recently, with some elaboration. I > > thought it would be a tad repetitive. But anyway, since it makes my > > position on censorship very clear,I am happy to include it, at the risk > of > repetitiveness. > > Once again, Kshemendra, watch it. Don't be so hasty in the > making of > assumptions about what other people might have done, or not have > done. > Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent > > of other peoples' actions and opinions makes you (more than > occasionally) > run the risk of looking foolish. > > Take Care, don't stumble, don't rush, the > surfaces you fall on are very > hard. 'La La Land' is not a gentle sort of > place. > > Shuddha > > My reply to Naeem (with the time and date stamp) is > below. > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: urgent > Date: Sun, > 02 Sep 2007 22:55:51 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Reply-To: > shuddha at sarai.net > Organization: Sarai > To: Naeem Mohaiemen > References: > > > Dear Naeem, > > ... I did write about what I would censor, some time back, > in the > post titled 'The Attack on Taslima Nasrin in Hyderabad I' posted on > the > 18th of August, and maybe it is pertinent to what you wrote and this is > - > > "Similarly, if someone were to post photographic representations of > > children or animals in a pornographic form on any web forum or any other > > platform, I would call for its censorship, not because it is > pornographic > but because its implies sexual actions with implicitly > unverifiable consent. > Here, i would maintain that a drawn or written (as > opposed to photographic) > representation would not qualify in my view for > censorship, though I would > strongly criticse such a representation. > Similarly, I would personally call > for the censorship of the snuff > videos of acts of beheading that jihadist > groups in Iraq and elsewhere > in the world are so fond of displaying on > internet forums, or the > photographic representations of hangings and public > executions that the > fascist and totalitarian regimes in Iran and China > sometimes put out > Not because I have a problem with the representation of > violence per se, > but because in these cases the act of representation itself > is a > violation of the liberty of those who are being killed. No one has > asked > them (the executed) for their consent to have their beheading or > hanging > put on public display. > > In each of these cases, i would call for > the regulation of speech and > expression because I believe that in each of > these cases there is a > direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or > personal well being > of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to > the relevant > speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or > expression that I > would be willing to endorse the censorship of." > > My > personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would > not > censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have > written > about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, > that spells > out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings > for strong > content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, > because I find such > material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the > right to stop other people > from watching them. > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a > bit of rough s and > m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that > those who want > to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > If > it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict > > censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above. > > Please post this > argument if you find it necessary, I am a bit tired of > posting on the list > by now. > > thanks > > Shuddha > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Ten days > back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You would Censor". > It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about "freedoms". > > > > No > one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual community" > thought the question deserved an answer. > > > > The bunch of 'La La Land" > hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer. > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > PS: > > Dear Naeem > > > > It might upset you that the likes of me > should be using your posting to make a point. You might ignore it, but if I > receive a sharp retort from you, I will understand. > > > > KK > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list > on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email > to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > > --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the > Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list > on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email > to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 20:35:07 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 08:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Of ingrates and hypocrites In-Reply-To: <47e122a70709131129h55eb6f28ye519bcf91e12bce4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <916258.85528.qm@web57209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder Inder, a dialogue of this sort should normally be one of quotes of "I saids" and "You saids". Your "response" however is littered with many presuppositions about not only what my "thinking" is but even advance knowledge of what my "responses" to you are going to be. You have no words from me to use as quotes for substantiating your judgements. In places you, rather slyly, use my actual words and taking them out of the context in which they were spoken, you endow them with references and meanings that suit you. Inder if you already know the "sort of person" I am and what my "attitudes" are and what my "replies" will be, then why should you want to talk to me. If you want to vent "at" me using presupposition about me as the excuse then it would be better to refer to me in the "third person" so that I do not feel that a reply from me is expected. 1. Inder, you say that "unwittingly" I have given answers to my own questions. I am confused. Will you please list my answers against my own questions. 2. You say that creative people are at my "mercy". Are they? I am in no position of authority or influence, how can they be at my "mercy"? 3. You say "... artists need to escape, to imagine, to feel free, and be eccentric and be even psychic patients" Why are you telling me? Did I say anything that contests that right of an artist or anyone? Your and my disagreement could possibly be over whether a "right" is an unfettered right that can be taken to any extreme. I say no, it is not. Any "right" is, whether you like it or not, an "allowed right" under principles that govern "rights". A country's Constitution for example is both a "vision document" and furnisher of "prime directives" for the governance of rights. The governance is essential so that there is balancing of "all rights" in "all areas" for "all people". If there were no such "overseeing" then it would be a "jungle". So Inder, in the case of an artist if the "eccentricity" or the "psychosis" (as you probably meant) were to upset the balancing act of "all rights" in "all areas" for "all people" then it would most probably attract regulation or censorship. It should too, in my opinion. There is no getting away from it. That holds true for not just India but any country you can name. 4. Noted your comments about me that I have perhaps "never been stung by the creative bug" or am possibly "too young" or ".. have no idea of what it takes to make an artist, a performance artist, a poet, a musician". Either you know me extremely well Inder or you are presuming just too much. 5. Inder I wrote in one section about how we as humans cannot escape being in a Nation. We might escape "This Nation" but will only land in "Another Nation" and that, whichever Nation it is, there will regulatory sets of Laws that will affect and sometimes impinge upon every aspect of our lives (even thinking) and associated rights/freedoms. I had not spoken about "breathing" but now that you mention it, yes "breathing too". Simple examples are the Death Penalty takes away the right to breathe. Some Nations say no to appertaining that right to themselves. Similarly, all Nations (speaking under correction) disallow the individual the right of choice to "stop breathing" by treating suicide as being illegal. Some allow euthanasia, some do not. Medical termination of pregnancy is treated as being violative of the unborn child's right to live in some countries whereas others allow it. All of that Inder was a representation of facts (to my thinking). If you have a different viewpoint on that please state so with examples. What confuses me is how you could link all of this to my saying that the "state of the Nation" tortures me. These are two different topics. Maybe my wording was wrong. I meant the condition (state) of India (Nation) tortures me. Meaning that it is quite bad in my opinion. It got qualified, I think, by expressing my desire to "rectify" the Nation as compared to your desire to "escape" 6. Your references to Ravana, Sita Mata and Nation State must have had some profound interlinkages. They failed to stir my faculty to comprehend. 7. Noted your evaluation that Indira Gandhi was more liberal than me. 8. Hussain's is an interesting case. It is just one example that begs a serious and unbiased discussion on secularity of attitudes and freedoms. Unfortunately that particular topic also invariably brings in considerations of "sensitivities". As soon as 'selective secularism' rears it's head the discussions get muddled with cries of "pseudo-secularism" and in my opinion, such cries are not unjustified. For me personally (have written about it in another post which you might have missed) India needs to be "truly secular" and it is not. It is a different topic. In my India-view Hussain's right to paint any kind of pictures should extend to all forms of expressions concerning religions and equally for all religions. The State should have no cognition of any such an "animal" as religion (perhaps except the municipal provision of graveyards and cremation grounds) It is the "sensitivities" issue that squares the pitch because in Religion there are rarely sensitivities and oftener there are passions involved. The "pseudo-secularist" dart gets thrown when Hussain becomes a "cause" and the Danish cartoonist or Salman Rushdie get vilified. The dart hits dead-centre. There are many more examples and possible scenarios to give on this issue and I erased them after writing them. Were harsh. But, what do you say Inder? Should there be respecting of all religious sensitivities or should it be an eternal open season for anyone to express any kind of a sentiment about anyone in whatever form of expression? 9. I smile. I express agreement with your statement that the Nation should understand it's subjects and that India has miserably failed in Kashmir AND YET you are insistent that I am actually not agreeing. Strange. Why? Because I did not write about the Kashmir conflict you say. Thats is a bizzare deduction. 10. You go on Inder to talk passionately about Kashmir "the bone" and India and Pakistan "the dogs" and go on about various other connected and unconnected issues. Your narrative is of a judge, jury and executioner with my (presumed by you) statements and reactions thrown in. You reach your conclusions. I do not see any scope for or intent in your having a dialogue with me about it. I can only listen. If you do want a dialogue on the "Kashmir issue" then it has to be over specifics otherwise we will both go the "emotional" route. But if you continue to make assumptions on my behalf without my words to substantiate them then it will be difficult to respond. If you will be kind enough to go over your own mail you might see the number of places you could with honesty reach the conclusion "Oh! but he didn not say that" Also Inder, just as you expect your points to be addressed and your questions to be answered, so do I. Will not dwell on it with examples. Regards Kshmendra Kaul inder salim wrote: Kshmendra writes : 1. You want to escape Inder. You cannot. Wherever you go, it will be the Nation that will rule your life and through it's Laws determine your extent of movement, your mode of movement, where you can live, the kind of residence you can make, the quality of the air you breathe, the quality of the food you eat, quality of the medicines you get etc etc etc. Inder you might escape 'This Nation' but you can only escape to 'Another Nation'. That one too will have it's regulatory Laws and that one too will have it's problems. Show me the Utopia other than the one where the mind can travel. Inder, even the limits of your 'thinking' are regulated by the Laws of the Nation. Controls over subliminal messaging and drugging under legally enforced psychiatric interventions are just two examples. In fact Inder, apart from a handful of Nations, in most other places some of your own "Performance Art" will be totally unacceptable. Maybe not sent to the gallows, but you would certainly be rotting behind prison bars or sent for psychiatric treatment. Many countries automatically choose themselves as examples where some of your kind of "Performance Art" will bring you incarceration. At least on that score Inder be a wee bit thankful. Indersalim replies : Dear Kshmendra, I prefer not to answer the above in details. Unwittingly you have given answer to all the questions raised by you. When a artist like Chandermohan should be thankful in Gujarat that he is not sent to gallows, but only imprisoned, then where is the need to answer. I already, mentioned that our great Nation ' India' is brimming like people like you, but you took it too personal. It is about the growing intolerance. Creative people are at your mercy. Just read your letter again, and see who is writing to whom. You are writing to an artist ( you see me an artist ) and artists need to escape, to imagine, to feel free, and be eccentric and be even psychic patients. You have not been stung by creative bug, perhaps. But that is another debate. Either you are too young, or have no idea of what it takes to make an artist, a performance artist, a poet, a musician. You are not even, that "sar faroshie ki tamana abb hamaray dil main hai " so, forget about the debate on the true lovers of Nation Sate. But what I am interested in is the debate. About Nation state, Kshmendra Writes: 9. All your criticisms about India are genuine. The "state of the Nation" tortures me as much as it tortures you. The difference again is in our attitudes. You want to escape the Nation, I want to rectify the Nation. Then there are some who want to destroy it or aid those who seek to destroy it. Indersalim replies: Now see, Mr. Kshmendra, where you go wrong. Just few lines above, you point out that we can not even breathe without the Nation's will. But few lines later you point out that the State of Nation torture you. So how come that you worship Ravana who abducts Sita Mata of your Nation Sate. The fact is that India neither tortures you, nor it is imposing any unpleasant Laws on you, because you understand the language of Power quite well and you want to be part of it. So, who is vulnerable. You or Me ? But still I dare. Hope you know that a cartoonist in Iran has been Imprisoned? No, not for imitating Danish Cartoons, but for lampooning the men at the helm. You, want that same treatment for artists here. Is not that a fact. During Emergency, even Indira Gandhi, was a more liberal than you. I remember, late M.L. Saqi once told me that once Buddhists in Kashmir were once too intoxicated with power and they would go to the extent of killing the opponent if he happens to be outwitted in a discourse. Imagine, how we treat an artist like Hussain. Like Shuddha, I too don't see Hussain as a genius with a brush, but he deserves a space in India, a respectable space, after all he is not a criminal, nor is he supporting Kashmir Freedom Movement. Or, you imagine. Kshmenrdra Writes : 10. Coming to Kashmir. I completely agree with your statement "The Nation State should understand its subjects, from all perspectives, and India has miserably failed in Kashmir.......Kashmir issue is/was about ethics". Inder salim replies : Actually you disagree with my statement, because you have not written anything on Kashmir conflict. I guess, from class 8th or so in my school I know that Kashmir is a 'bone of contention between India and Pakistan'. We all know, this is official stand of both the countries as well. Now, for Allah and Ishwar's sake, please describe the nature of this bone. Certainly, two dogs are fighting for a piece of bone i.e. Kashmir, and those who are living like worms/ants inside the bone are destined to suffer. Is that what you want to say? Now, suddenly, few ( first 5) ants in 1990 got wings and learned how to bite the dog who almost kept the bone in his mouth for the last 50 years. The big dog ( Indian ) is angry, because its nature is such, and it naturally began crushing these rebellious ants in random. This resulted in a big chaos. As it happens in the animal Kingdom also, there was a specie of ants within the Khalq of ants who were friendly to this particular dog. They had no choice but to escape the wrath of Majority of ants. Now some of ants, outside the bone, lean to bark like dogs, much to the amusement of the big dog. (Please don't take it personal, it is just like a cartoon, and I hope it is still not Iran ) . Now, if you suggest me that Kashmir issue will die its own death one day, because it is too complex, I may believe even, but you have to convince the majority of people living there. Kashmiri Pandits are likely not to return, please agree with me. So what is wrong if suddenly India Pakistan will sit with Yasin Malik and his Huriyat colleagues and sort out the problem. Ah, now here you will say that Kashmiri Pandits deserve a chair to be part of that final discussion. No sir, you have theoretically given up that claim, because you have already merged your idea of Nation State with that of Indian. Or, was there any different Kashmiri Pandit idea of a Kashmiri Nation State while being in Kashmir ? No, never, They were always part and parcel of that Nation which declared, time and again, the Kashmir territory as unresolved. Now, if you and your Nation State don't want to resolve, then there are some Sar Farosh who will compel you to come to the table. Now, of course, you are with the powerful, and you always feel winning. That is where ' ethics' begins. I forwarded a little of Giorgio Agamben to you on purpose, because it want to convey the gravity of the situation. Now take this " When the rights of man are no longer the rights of the citizen, then he is truly sacred, in the sense that this term had in archaic Roman law: destined to die" Imagine, 1-2 million people died in 1947 partition. Who is responsible. When Pakistani Army massacred thousands and thousands in Bangladesh where was the state? When Tutusi and Hutu killed each other where was the state? It happened in Gujarat, it happened in Kashmir. Tell me what is state. It is nothing by army, guns, tanks and bombs and nuclear bombs besides no accountablility. When we learn to talk a little about Socrates, who knew nothing other than the ethics, its endless limits, to fashion the idea of a state, we are transported to a new-new world. He was every thing, sacred, profane, eros, empirical, spiritual, friend, lover and philosopher. He had the chance to escape the prison, but he stayed, because his idea of ' know they self' was impossible to imagine without the idea of state. This is in comparison to Aristotle, who fled Athens when things were tough. There is an element of ' hysterical' to his willingness of drinking the Hemlok, but you also comes under ' performance art ' and as I see from you letter to me, you are quite averse genera like that. The point in the case here is that the State has a tendency to lapse into a 'state of frigidity'. And sooner it becomes arrogant and executes a hero like Donton Marat in France, Sufi Sarmad in India or Mansoor Hallaj in Iran. There are many heroes who contributed to the idea of state. The irony is that who sit on the throne of power always quote the sacrificed while order executions. Even Ashoka the great is believed to have ordered some death sentences during the height of his Buddhist fame. Do you want to be part of that power, if so, then you are on the right path, sir. You know, this seat of power issued fatwa against the poet Abdul Ahad Zargar for writing a poem. I hope you know that, you will certainly criticize that Fatwa, but suddenly you will justify the action against an artists for example, Hussain. I don't know you, you make sharp turns, which is confusing. May be you also criticize the violence of Bajrang Dal, but how I will understand the opening lines of your letter, which leave no space for artists like me, even to breathe. Yesterday, I saw one more documentary film by Sara Singh at IIC. I am sure if you had been there, you would have protested like you did during Sanjay Kak's JesjhneAzadi. There was candid interview with Hashim Qurashee, besides many other interviews by people from Partition time. He was saying that people of Kashmir are caught between three guns. He expressed anguish that Kashmiris are living dogs life and what they have done to deserve all this. The film was multi layered covering India Pakistan conflict and the pain of Partition. What interested me most is that it was punctuated with folk music of Kutch, Punjab, and Kashmir, as Sanjay Kak's was with poetry or Bandh theatre. In short the historical narrative was given a break to speak itself while singing the earth, its songs, its past. How come, we have never given any space to discourses that include the music. Simple music. Is our vocabulary more superior than the notes of our shared folk song. I guess no. This is another debate. With regards and love to all Inder salim On 9/11/07, inder salim wrote: > dear Mr. Kshmendra > > i cut paste the following by Giorgio Agamben. i will come back to u > after some time. > all this effort in the end is to bring some shower of love upon all the us.... > > 1. In 1943, in a small jewish periodical, The Menorah Journal, Hannah > Arendt published an article titled "We Refugees." In this brief but > important essay, after sketching a polemical portrait of Mr. Cohn, the > assimilated Jew who had been 150 percent German, 150 percent Viennese, > and 150 percent French but finally realizes bitterly that "on ne > parvient pas deux fois," Arendt overturns the condition of refugee and > person without a country - in which she herself was living - in order > to propose this condition as the paradigm of a new historical > consciousness. The refugee who has lost all rights, yet stops wanting > to be assimilated at any cost to a new national identity so as to > contemplate his condition lucidly, receives, in exchange for certain > unpopularity, an inestimable advantage: "For him history is no longer > a closed book, and politics ceases to be the privilege of the > Gentiles. He knows that the banishment of the Jewish people in Europe > was followed immediately by that of the majority of the European > peoples. Refugees expelled from one country to the next represent the > avant-garde of their people." > > It is worth reflecting on the sense of this analysis, which today, > precisely fifty years later, has not lost any of its currency. Not > only does the problem arise with the same urgency, both in Europe and > elsewhere, but also, in the context of the inexorable decline of the > nation-state and the general corrosion of traditional legal-political > categories, the refugee is perhaps the only imaginable figure of the > people in our day. At least until the process of the dissolution of > the nation-state and its sovereignty has come to an end, the refugee > is the sole category in which it is possible today to perceive the > forms and limits of a political community to come. Indeed, it may be > that if we want to be equal to the absolutely novel tasks that face > us, we will have to abandon without misgivings the basic concepts in > which we have represented political subjects up to now (man and > citizen with their rights, but also the sovereign people, the worker, > etc.) and to reconstruct our political philosophy beginning with this > unique figure. > > 2. The first appearance of refugees as a mass phenomenon occurred at > the end of World War I, when the collapse of the Russian, > Austro-Hungarian, and Ottoman empires, and the new order created by > the peace treaties, profoundly upset the demographic and territorial > structure of Central and Eastern Europe. In just a short time, a > million and a half White Russians, seven hundred thousand Armenians, > five hundred thousand Bulgarians, a million Greeks, and hundreds of > thousands of Germans, Hungarians, and Romanians left their countries > and moved elsewhere. To these masses in motion should be added the > explosive situation determined by the fact that in the new states > created by the peace treaties on the model of the nation-state (for > example, in Yugoslavia and in Czechoslovakia), some 30 percent of the > populations comprised minorities that had to be protected through a > series of international treaties (the so-called Minority Treaties), > which very often remained a dead letter. A few years later, the racial > laws in Germany and the Civil War in Spain disseminated a new and > substantial contingent of refugees throughout Europe. > > We are accustomed to distinguishing between stateless persons and > refugees, but this distinction, now as then, is not as simple as it > might at first glance appear. From the beginning, many refugees who > technically were not stateless preferred to become so rather than to > return to their homeland (this is the case of Polish and Romanian Jews > who were in France or Germany at the end of the war, or today of > victims of political persecution as well as of those for whom > returning to their homeland would mean the impossibility of survival). > On the other hand, the Russian, Armenian and Hungarian refugees were > promptly denationalized by the new Soviet or Turkish governments, etc. > It is important to note that starting with the period of World War I, > many European states began to introduce laws which permitted their own > citizens to be denaturalized and denationalized. The first was France, > in 1915, with regard to naturalized citizens of "enemy" origins; in > 1922 the example was followed by Belgium, which revoked the > naturalization of citizens who had committed "anti-national" acts > during the war; in 1926 the Fascist regime in Italy passed a similar > law concerning citizens who had shown themselves to be "unworthy of > Italian citizenship"; in 1933 it was Austria's turn, and so forth, > until in 1935 the Nuremberg Laws divided German citizens into full > citizens and citizens without political rights. These laws - and the > mass statelessness that resulted - mark a decisive turning point in > the life of the modern nation-state and its definitive emancipation > from the naive notions of "people" and "citizen." > > This is not the place to review the history of the various > international commissions through which the states, the League of > Nations, and later, the United Nations stempted to deal with the > problem of refugees - from the Nansen Bureau for Russian and Armenian > refugees (1921), to the High Commission for Refugees from Germany > (1936), the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees (1938), and the > International Refugee Organization of the United Nations (1946), up to > the present High Commission for Refugees (1951) - whose activity, > according to its statute, has only a "humanitarian and social," not > political, character. The basic point is that every time refugees no > longer represent individual cases but rather a mass phenomenon (as > happened between the two wars, and has happened again now), both these > organizations and the single states have proven, despite the solemn > evocations of the inalienable rights of man, to be absolutely > incapable not only of resolving the problem but also simply of dealing > with it adequately. In this way the entire ques- tion was transferred > into the hands of the police and of humanitarian organizations. > > 3. The reasons for this impotence lie not only in the selfishness and > blindness of bureaucratic machines, but in the basic notions > themselves that regulate the inscription of the native (that is, of > life) in the legal order of the nation-state. Hannah Arendt titled > chapter 5 of her book Imperialism, dedicated to the problem of > refugees, "The Decline of the Nation-State and the End of the Rights > of Man." This formulation - which inextricably links the fates of the > rights of man and the modern national state, such that the end of the > latter necessarily implies the obsolescence of the former - should be > taken seriously. The paradox here is that precisely the figure that > should have incarnated the rights of man par excellence, the refugee, > constitutes instead the radical crisis of this concept. "The concept > of the Rights of man," Arendt writes, "based on the supposed existence > of a human being as such, collapsed in ruins as soon as those who > professed it found themselves for the first time before men who had > truly lost every other specific quality and connection except for the > mere fact of being humans." In the nation-state system, the so-called > sacred and inalienable rights of man prove to be completely > unprotected at the very moment it is no longer possible to > characterize them as rights of the citizens of a state. This is > implicit, if one thinks about it, in the ambiguity of the very title > of the Declaration of 1789, Declaration des droits de I'homme et du > citoyen, in which it is unclear whether the two terms name two > realities, or whether instead they form a hendiadys, in which the > second term is, in reality, already contained in the first. > > That there is no autonomous space within the political order of the > nation-state for something like the pure man in himself is evident at > least in the fact that, even in the best of cases, the status of the > refugee is always considered a temporary condition that should lead > either to naturalization or to repatriation. A permanent status of man > in himself is inconceivable for the law of the nation-state. > > 4. It is time to stop looking at the Declarations of Rights from 1789 > to the present as if they were proclamations of eternal, metajuridical > values that bind legislators to respect them, and to consider them > instead according to their real function in the modern state. In fact, > the Rights of Man represent above all the original figure of the > inscription of bare natural life in the legal-political order of the > nation-state. That bare life (the human creature) which in the ancien > regime belonged to God, and in the classical world was clearly > distinct (as zoe) from political life (bios), now takes center stage > in the state's concerns and becomes, so to speak, its terrestrial > foundation. Nation-state means a state that makes nativity or birth > (that is, of the bare human life) the foundation of its own > sovereignty. This is the (not even very obscure) sense of the first > three articles of the Declaration of 1789: only because it wrote the > native element into the core of any political association (arts. 1 and > 2) could it firmly tie (in art. 3) the principle of sovereignty to the > nation (in accordance with its etymon, natio originally meant simply > "birth"). The fiction implicit here is that birth immediately becomes > nation, such that there can be no distinction between the two moments. > Rights, that is, are attributable to man only in the degree to which > he is the immediately vanishing presupposition (indeed, he must never > appear simply as man) of the citizen. > > 5. If in the system of the nation-state the refugee represents such a > disquieting element, it is above all because by breaking up the > identity between man and citizen, between nativity and nationality, > the refugee throws into crisis the original fiction of sovereignty. > Single exceptions to this principle have always existed, of course; > the novelty of our era, which threatens the very foundations of the > nation-state, is that growing portions of humanity can no longer be > represented within it. For this reason - that is, inasmuch as the > refugee unhinges the old trinity of state/nation/territory - this > apparently marginal figure deserves rather to be considered the > central figure of our political history. It would be well not to > forget that the first camps in Europe were built as places to control > refugees, and that the progression - internment camps, concentration > camps, extermination camps - represents a perfectly real filiation. > One of the few rules the Nazis faithfully observed in the course of > the "final solution" was that only after the Jews and gypsies were > completely denationalized (even of that second-class citizenship that > belonged to them after the Nuremberg laws) could they be sent to the > extermination camps. When the rights of man are no longer the rights > of the citizen, then he is truly sacred, in the sense that this term > had in archaic Roman law: destined to die. > > 6. It is necessary resolutely to separate the concept of the refugee > from that of the "Rights of man," and to cease considering the right > of asylum (which in any case is being drastically restricted in the > legislation of the European states) as the conceptual category in > which the phenomenon should be impressed (a glance at the recent Test > sul diritto d'asilo by A. Heller shows that today this can lead only > to nauseating confusion). The refugee should be considered for what he > is, that is, nothing less than a border concept that radically calls > into question the principles of the nation-state and, at the same > time, helps clear the field for a no-longer-delayable renewal of > categories. In the meantime, the phenomenon of so-called illegal > immigration into the countries of the European Community has assumed > (and will increasingly assume in coming years, with a foreseen 20 > million immigrants from the countries of central Europe) features and > proportions such as to fully justify this revolution in perspective. > What the industrialized states are faced with today is a permanently > resident mass of noncitizens, who neither can be nor want to be > naturalized or repatriated. Often these noncitizens have a nationality > of origin, but inasmuch as they prefer not to make use of their > state's protection they are, like refugees, "stateless de facto" For > these noncitizen residents, T. Hammar created the neologism denizens, > which has the merit of showing that the concept citizen is no longer > adequate to describe the sociopolitical reality of modern states. On > the other hand, citizens of the advanced industrialized states (both > in the United States and in Europe) manifest, by their growing > desertion of the codified instances of political participation, an > evident tendency to transform themselves into denizens, into > conformity with the well-known principle that substantial assimilation > in the presence of formal differences exasperates hatred and > intolerance, xenophobic reactions and defensive mobilizations will > increase. > > 7. Before the extermination camps are reopened in Europe (which is > already starting to happen), nation-states must find the courage to > call into question the very principle of the inscription of nativity > and the trinity of state/nation/territory which is based on it. It is > sufficient here to suggest one possible direction. As is well known, > one of the options considered for the problem of Jerusalem is that it > become the capital, contemporaneously and without territorial > divisions, of two different states. The paradoxical condition of > reciprocal extraterritoriality (or, better, aterritoriality) that this > would imply could be generalized as a model of new international > relations. Instead of two national states separated by uncertain and > threatening boundaries, one could imagine two political communities > dwelling in the same region and in exodus one into the other, divided > from each other by a series of reciprocal extraterritorialities, in > which the guiding concept would no longer be the ius of the citizen, > but rather the refugium of the individual. In a similar sense, we > could look to Europe not as an impossible "Europe of nations," whose > catastrophic results can already be perceived in the short term, but > as an aterritorial or extraterritorial space in which all the > residents of the European states (citizens and noncitizens) would be > in a position of exodus or refuge, and the status of European would > mean the citizen's being-in-exodus (obviously also immobile). The > European space would thus represent an unbridgeable gap between birth > and nation, in which the old concept of people (which, as is well > known, is always a minority) could again find a political sense by > decisively opposing the concept of nation (which until now has unduly > usurped it). > > This space would not coincide with any homogeneous national territory, > nor with their topographical sum, but would act on these territories, > making holes in them and dividing them topologically like in a Leiden > jar or in a Moebius strip, where exterior and interior are > indeterminate. In this new space, the European cities, entering into a > relationship of reciprocal extraterritoriality, would rediscover their > ancient vocation as cities of the world. Today, in a sort of > no-man's-land between Lebanon and Israel, there are four hundred and > twenty-five Palestinians who were expelled by the state of Israel. > According to Hannah Arendt's suggestion, these men constitute "the > avant-garde of their people." But this does not necessarily or only > mean that they might form the original nucleus of a future national > state, which would probably resolve the Palestinian problem just as > inadequately as Israel has resolved the Jewish question. Rather, the > no-man's-land where they have found refuge has retroacted on the > territory of the state of Israel, making holes in it and altering it > in such a way that the image of that snow-covered hill has become more > an internal part of that territory than any other region of Heretz > Israel. It is only in a land where the spaces of states will have been > perforated and topologically deformed, and the citizen will have > learned to acknowledge the refugee that he himself is, that man's > political survival today is imaginable. > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 22:00:37 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] STOP etc In-Reply-To: <46ECEED2.2070605@sarai.net> Message-ID: <906298.51162.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Shveta, I meant exactly what I said.I talked specifically about "my faculties of expression".I did not mean or insinuate anything else. Is it politically incorrect to make a generalization?Maybe.But I do feel that men and women are inherently disadvantaged in communicating with each other.Women receive and transmit many subliminal signals that men do not.Thats a personal obervation based on my own experience. Other things that you say,I dont subscribe to them and neither could I explain.But I am not surprised at your response. regards Rahul --- Shveta wrote: > Rahul Asthana wrote: > > I find > > my faculties of expression inadequate to connect > to > > passionate people in general and ladies in > > particular;so I had taken a break. > > > Very few women have participated in the few threads > that have dominated > the list in the last few weeks. > > But violation of women's body has been a recurring > lietmotif and > shorthand for creating an impression about > suffering. Or as a metaphor > for explaining the vulnerable borders of territory > and community. > > And what sense can we make of the above comment? - > Women should speak > and write in a way that is appropiate to some > already given sensibility > of speech. Cool. When in trouble in arguments lets > talk through her body > and when confronted with speech say I cannot take > it! ... and these are > all people who claim they are going to bring in a > better and ethical world. > > In a way lists are fairly revelatory of implicit > acceptances... & are > private mail abuses to women list subscribers not a > clear sign of how > recklessly these implicits can be performed without > any check or > restraint, and very assured that there will be no > consequence to it? > > best > shveta > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 22:03:01 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Quieting the Monkey Mind Message-ID: <311048.84031.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> "The monkey mind jumps from thought to thought like a monkey jumps from tree to tree. Rather than existing in the present moment, the monkey mind focuses on one thought after another, and these thoughts distract us from exisiting in the present, which is one of the goals of yoga. Sitting in meditation is a good way to see the monkey mind in its natural habitat. Just sitting still and clearing the mind is so challenging. You observe one thought popping up, and another, and another. This is inevitable, especially when you are getting started. The trick is to learn to observe the thoughts without engaging in them. An analogy I like is to see the mind as the sky and the thoughts like clouds passing through. Whether you are meditating or practicing asanas, returning your attention again and again to the breath will always help you detach from the thoughts and return to the present moment. Each inhale and exhale exists only in the present. When you are doing asanas, remind yourself to use Ocean Breathing (Ujjayi) each time you catch yourself thinking. " As the monkey handled in better way in the above, so as the perpetrators and their actions. Atricities in the name of jihad will never be treated as simple childish moves and so as the shouters. Caste based system is there in India, like wise Racism in the rest of the world. Fighting for them is no way usefull except to turn the things perpetrators favour to make things more worsen. Start thinking to build unique nation INDIA and participate constructively in its development for the sake of all Indians. Changing place names,killing people,wiping out sanskrit universities, lamenting monuments wont help in any way. --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 22:32:15 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:02:15 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] In Cold Blood In-Reply-To: <46ED0EB4.30309@free.fr> References: <57ad49a60709160400r263cfabcn93727d2ec44ac014@mail.gmail.com> <46ED0EB4.30309@free.fr> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709161002h3eb4c941p2d95e9b61662d699@mail.gmail.com> you dont mean persistence and restraint are the same thing, fred? On 9/16/07, frdrcmdr wrote: > meena menon a écrit : > > Sarai 2007 seventh posting > > > > > now that's what I call restraint > > f. From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 22:36:44 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal Message-ID: <815267.18707.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi All, I do not see the email shveta replied to in the list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my response to Vishal and it has my argument as to why the nation may resort to censorship in some cases-to be specific,why it would censor something that promotes self determination in Kashmir. Here goes again.If it was already posted to the list,my apologies. Hi Vishal, That was a great post.I mean the original one.I find my faculties of expression inadequate to connect to passionate people in general and ladies in particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again. Now,many people think that A united and independent Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution to this 60 year old dispute. This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but who are the stakeholders in such type of a solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required here. What I or you think should happen, would not affect reality one bit. Nations dont work on such canonical moral principles.For getting anywhere near to the solution of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip with realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit from an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir itself.As for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN reiterates a policy of non interference and bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb the other party to come to a solution. Nor can any country bleed the other to a point of submission by terrorism etc. Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the North East, b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and India would not be comfortable with that going in a different country. c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not to try to usurp any further territory. d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a disputed territory and if any party is perceived to go soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult time to get elected again. So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it may have to do or it may have to tolerate. I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there is the one water treaty,for them to have reservations in wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether there is an internal political spin to it. Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign state,it will also have problems with its non uniform demographics. There would always be some sort of strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of an option would only guarantee the continuation of some kind of trouble in the region. So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would not allow it to happen,without consideration for Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in the solution of the problem.Most of all the Kashmiris. Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense expenditure). A solution is a win win option for everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their idealism;because its a matter of life and death for many people. And,above all , all concerned parties should drop this holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their stated positions. By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been a Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion would have been the same. regards Rahul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 22:45:48 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709141012i7c9953e6xc01a5050e36a1003@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <222549.4870.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> This idea is not for creating money, but the main theme is to claim IPR/PATENTS for 0 UNDER GATT/WTO agreements to control the betrayals. Any way people and countries need not worry that India may monopolise 0. Aryabhatta defined the mathematics means there should have lecturers at NALANDA University to mentor him, and so as material available to produce the accurate thesis and so as the contemporaries. "ARYABHATTIYAM" is just a book available and might be many more books kept under safe hands of people in India like RAJATARANGINI. The debate and search should go on until we come to an agreement about what are rules we frame and produce for patenting and IPR at WTO approval. Vishal Rawlley wrote: Dhatri-ji said: " --On 0, ... I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members aware that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva pact. Under this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and applicable to India? Let me explain more scientifically. Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to use 0 for general purposes. It depends again." I say: Why no response by any "intellectual" on this question of "0" importance??? But Dhatri saahab, if we patent "0" and charge for its usage, won't people give us a "0" amount in return?? They will say:"scientifically" speaking, we have only zero to offer in return of a zero! These Indians, I tell you, they are smart but they do not know how to profit from their smartness, we shall therefore remain poor only, alas. Hai Rama. Now if we had invented I, II, III, V, X, XX, XXX, L, M etc. as the smart Romans did, then we should most defenitely have patented all those and charged IIIVXXXLM.... amounts for each single use and then we would have been a super power already and Akhand Bharat could have been a reality!!! Now I hope no Romans read this and use this idea against us. Then, for example, each student going to standard IV might have to pay IV Euros to them. That will surely ruin our education system. No? Then only the children in 'chauthi kaksha' (fourth grade) from hindi medium schools would be able to afford education, as they never even used the IV notation! Maybe, that will turn out to be a good thing after all! Hindi is really suffering in this country and so are all the regional languages. What say? Jai Hind!!! -Vishal On 9/12/07, we wi wrote: Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from Gujarat . If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, Dhatri == Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother Earth. If you have patience to look at these terms just go through the entire link or just fire a find (Cntl+F) and type these terms over there. http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh parishaths, Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. India HINDU comes first and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen of India, Valid Passport holder, It's my Constitutional right to vote as per my choice and live. Those all who never completed schooling and aware of India Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices to enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. Focusing on the topic now, What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing converse logic and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. >If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in the >same month as India, so perhaps they might reply by dispatching some >of them into India if India goes for hot chases, surgical strikes, >masala dosas, bhel pooris etc. YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like India). Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical Induction,on Junaid statement "Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not move out of their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how India can execute it later. --Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham TRANSLATION Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata, and a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! OR Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend myself. So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple understanding is the 9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more remaining to come. The followers of Buddhism now misunderstood it. --And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to the world or a bunch of people like you. What to do if people/countries like you are betraying then bullying is the last sort of option. I don't know how many of the readers aware of this but happy to quote from the first Para of the post --Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business --On 0, Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and joviality (professor student) and your will in favor/against PATENTING and IPR is nothing to do with the practicalities. You may say that countries/you can use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN WAY. No problem you/countries can write whatever the way they wish to use. I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members aware that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva pact. Under this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and applicable to India? Let me explain more scientifically. Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to use 0 for general purposes. It depends again. Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear dispatch, for moving them people need INDIA permission. We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and need a motivated, will powered political system to execute this. This is feasible 99%. Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. --On points 1,2,3 You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and Sadhus Shri Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). Because they are all sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You will never compare them with Aurangazeb. For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its boarders from Alexander to British 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka 3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana For your better understanding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg -- On points 4,5 Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your writing are in genuine, I request you to please 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne -- On points 6,7,8 Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna daughter is dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it till her teenage (before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. |This is the fact and for your kind information. I pity for Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah sister who migrated to Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR is an Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from Pakistan and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid or like personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to vacate peaks occupied and offered. Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive India is ready welcome the kid. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 23:26:08 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:26:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> http://tamilinfoservice.com/manitham/environment/sscp/article/4.htm http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/tamilnadu/050404sethu.htm http://www.greensl.net/campaigns003.php http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/a-blunder-called-sethusamudram/ Where are all those who had been talking about ecological disaster during Narmada Dam project ? Why are they silent ? Where are the activists and the film makers ? I do understand their problems and the "compulsions". God Bless ! From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 23:30:01 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:30:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <815267.18707.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <815267.18707.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709161100o23f110f5k8da94ddd67536b09@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul, After you posted your problems with self-determination in Kashmir, I had replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you a question: we now know the problems you have pointed out, but we want to know your proposed solution, can you post your answer please. Thank you. >> In response to Rahul I had said: Very well said. You have a right to your own opinions and have provided good reasoning for it too. However, it does not necessarily mean that everyone has to agree with you. Other people have a right to their own viewpoints based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your views. If you are convinced that your views are superior than others, then its their loss that they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes to decide the best viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile keep refining your arguments. Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who won't listen. Many successive Indian governments have tried the policy that you are propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now what to do? What is the correct solution? Can you put it down step by step, just like you put down all the problems point by point? Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution, which was: withdrawal of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian and under Pakistani occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space to decide - after considering all the problems that you mentioned - whether they want to be independent or be with either country (entirely or partly, as in partly autonomous). I do not know this if solution of theirs will work, what do you think? Maybe this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide and they might kill each other some more before they arrive at a plan. But at least they will not be able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems better than wasting our money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us forcefully. Do you have a better plan? Tell us please. -Vishal On 9/16/07, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Hi All, > I do not see the email shveta replied to in the > list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my > response to Vishal and it has my argument as to why > the nation may resort to censorship in some cases-to > be specific,why it would censor something that > promotes self determination in Kashmir. > Here goes again.If it was already posted to the > list,my apologies. > > Hi Vishal, > That was a great post.I mean the original one.I find > my faculties of expression inadequate to connect to > passionate people in general and ladies in > particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of > "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again. > Now,many people think that A united and independent > Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution to > this 60 year old dispute. > This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont > think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but who > are the stakeholders in such type of a > solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required here. > What I or you think should happen, would not affect > reality one bit. > Nations dont work on such canonical moral > principles.For getting anywhere near to the solution > of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip with > realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit from > an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir itself.As > for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN > reiterates a policy of non interference and > bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb the > other party to come to a solution. Nor can any country > bleed the other to a point of submission by terrorism > etc. > Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India > a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the > North East, > b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and India > would not be comfortable with that going in a > different country. > c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not to > try to usurp any further territory. > d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a > disputed territory and if any party is perceived to go > soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult time > to get elected again. > So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint > gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it > may have to do or it may have to tolerate. > I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there is > the one water treaty,for them to have reservations in > wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what > interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those > Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether > there is an internal political spin to it. > Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region > with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign > state,it will also have problems with its non uniform > demographics. There would always be some sort of > strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of an > option would only guarantee the continuation of some > kind of trouble in the region. > So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost > impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would > not allow it to happen,without consideration for > Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. > Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in > the solution of the problem.Most of all the Kashmiris. > Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense > expenditure). A solution is a win win option for > everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and > pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their > idealism;because its a matter of life and death for > many people. > And,above all , all concerned parties should drop this > holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and > come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to > everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their > stated positions. > By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I > know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been a > Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine > theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion > would have been the same. > regards > Rahul > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all > the tools to get online. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 23:42:42 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:42:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rhetorical Question In-Reply-To: <809957.28660.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <809957.28660.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709161112m58b3b4f3w5150298a090d2451@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kashmendra, Now can you give your reasons for censoring a certain thing? What would you censor and why? Should Jashn-e-Azadi be censored, and if so why? Please state your case. Thank you. -Vishal On 9/16/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Naeem > > In the referred to posting, in the footnote I requested your indulgence > and my readiness to receive a sharp retort from you. > > I do apologise for my posting suggesting that you were not considered > "deserving" of an answer. > > Very frankly, the rhetorical nature of your question did not register with > me. Maybe that was aided by my desire to see what kind of answers it would > receive. > > I must mention though that on the positive side it made me privy to some > very well argued out guiding principles for "regulation" and "censorship" > laid out by Shuddha. I regret it was at the cost of the "melodramatic > subject header" using your name. > > Kshmendra Kaul > > PS: Is "basta ya" the equivalent of "let go of it"? In Bengali is it? > > > > > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > Kshmendra, > You can't really use my email to drive home a thesis about certain > topics being ignored (in the melodramatic subject header "Naeem > Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer"). > > I posted what was obviously a rhetorical question. A news report on an > ultra-violent horror film, prefaced by my question "Could it be, that > even now, there are certain lines to be drawn?". It was pretty obvious > that I was advocating censoring ultra-violent imagery in certain > contexts. I think most people got what my position was. > > Thinking of two cases I dimly recall: > - A year after Brett Easton Ellis' AMERICAN PSYCHO was released (which > has some of the most noxiously violent, misogynist imagery on text, > although at a distance of almost a decade, I recognize lot of it as > satire-- but satire in extreme poor taste), a home was raided to catch > a brutal murder, and the same book was found on the bedside table. > - When two under-15 boys kidnapped an eught year old and strangled him > to death (this happened, if I recall correctly, in England in the > early 90s), a raid into their parents home discovered the film > CHUCKY-- in which the malevolent spirit is in a disfigured doll, which > looks like-- bingo-- an eight year old child. > > I have always argued that certain ultra-violent imagery can push > certain persons over the edge into violent or copycat action. > Therefore it should at the least be criticized, as hate speech is > condemned. Because it directly encourages violence and murder. > > This point was pretty obvious from my one-line rhetorical question as > well. So it was not really a question that was an orphan if left > without "an answer". So no, I didn't "deserve" or need an answer. > > Shuddha wrote to me personally because he knows me personally. He even > invited me to post his response on Sarai list, but I spaced and > forgot. Basta ya, let's move on. > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen did not deserve an answer > > To: shuddha at sarai.net > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Message-ID: <214127.82974.qm at web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Dear Shuddhabrata > > > > Your mail is addressed to me as an individual and therefore I shall > equally courteously respond. Soon after though, in another mail you revert > to "let us bunch them together" routine. > > > > It is interesting that some people who celebrate an individual's > freedoms and thereby an individual's identity in this "intellectual > community" should so readily chorus the "I see a mob, I see a mob, attack > the mob" shouts irrespective of how varied the opinions, positions and > arguments might be. Pick up one issue over which there might be strong > disagreements and on that basis dismiss all else about anyone who might even > remotely suggest himself/herself not subscribing to your views on any topic. > Demonise them. No good should be seen in the devils by anyone, so cloud the > scene with "They are a mob; They are a mob; Everyone must attack the mob". > > > > It was interesting to see someone like Rahul Asthana also (who in my > opinion is one of the "decent" correspondents on this list) get clubbed (not > by you) with the "mob" because he might have disagreed over some issue. > "Rahul is a part of them, Rahul is a part of the mob, beware, you must see > Rahul as part of the mob". Amusing. > > > > I see all of this as "intellectual cowardice" and a lack of > "intellectual ethics". Those who find it convenient to see a "mob" end up > becoming a "mob". It is sad because it includes some extremely sharp and > bright intellect. Individual intellect however always sacrifices itself to > the psyche of the "mob". > > > > Let me come to what your mail was essentially about. > > > > - Naeem asked a question in the room > > - I did not see Naeem receiving an answer in the room > > - Shuddha says he answered Naeem in private and explains why he did so > > - No one in the room saw Naeem receive an answer in public for a > question he asked in public > > - As far as any member (including me) of the room is concerned, Naeem > did not receive an answer. > > > > So Shuddha, there is no assumption on my part as far as that domain is > concerned where the question was asked and where no answer was given. I am > just a simple minded Horatio of simple philosophies of the apparent. > > > > Actually Shuddha, you of all the people should be able to appreciate > that. I remember the rather facile but the distinctinctness and separateness > with which you sought to aggressively define "public" and "private" spaces. > > > > I wonder now who should be the candidate for your threatening admonition > of "watch it" and the pomposity in "...makes you (more than occasionally) > run the risk of looking foolish." > > > > Shuddha your comment about me "Your eagerness to assume the role of the > omniscient surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions" might > sound very telling but does not make me cringe (if it was meant to) simply > because I was very interested in seeing what answers Naeem would receive. > For me, the answers to that question from a "neutral" observer would only > add perspectives to the discussion about "what" or "are there any at all" > limits that can be considered for "individual" or "collective" freedom of > expression. > > > > Thank you Shuddha for posting your response to Naeem. I saw the most > significant part of your response in your words: > > > > """""" In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech > and expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a > direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a > person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act. > And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I would be willing > to endorse the censorship of. > > > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would > not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have > written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that > spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong > content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such > material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people > from watching them. > > > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and > m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want to > watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict > censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above.""""""" > > > > You have very clearly given the examples and the reasoning. > > > > You have for one set of cases used the evaluating principle of "...... > there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well > being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant > speech act" Could hardly be put better. > > > > So, although both "regulation" and "censorship" may be restrictive of > the individual's right to freedom of expression or of that of the > collective, yet have to be taken on board as possible necessities for a > variety of reasons in a variety of situations. > > > > Both "regulation" and "censorship" cannot be an "open licence". The > areas where they can be applied, the bases of application and the extent of > application has to be extremely carefully thought about. > > > > Without any doubt (in my mind), the "regulatory" or "censoring" actions > have to be sincere, honest, should not over-step the allowed briefs and not > seek to serve hidden agendas. > > > > Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these > standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be > involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for > application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the > life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons > that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" > > > > Shuddha, if my comments over your mail to Naeem seem like they > misrepresent you, please do tell me (if you feel like doing so). Please make > it specific and brief because you can very often be tediously boring and so > convoluted that it defeats the purpose of making yourself understood, unless > it is deliberately so strategised. > > > > In conclusion, your reference to "La La Land" is quite childish and > hardly does credit to your intellect. Intellectual dishonesty. It was an > expression used by me for specific reference to the attitude of "we do not > care for the Nation, we do not believe in a Nation" (my own quote marks). It > is hardly pertinent to this topic. Again, I see in it an attitude of "You > are one of the mob, remember you spoke of La La Land. You must be attacked > over it even if it has no bearing here" Sad attitude. > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > You said, > > > > "Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > > "freedoms". No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this > > "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer.The > > bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to > answer." > > > > As a matter of fact, I did. Though in doing so, I did not think I was > > displaying anything by way of 'moral courage'. I thought I was simply > > haveing an exchange about the circumstances in which I would countenance > > or endorse, or at least not object to censorship. > > > > I answered Naeem off list. I wrote to him, personally, On the same day, > > in less than four hours after Naeem had posted his query. I enclose > > below (at the end of this post) the relevant excerpt from what I wrote > > to him. > > > > (I hope Naeem will not object, and I apologize to Naeem, and to the list > > for posting a private off-list conversation on the list, although it wa > > provoked by an on-list query,for reasons of clarification, and > > tangentially, to defend the honour, if you like, of 'La La Land'.) > > > > I did not think it necessary then to post this to the list because it > > consists in the main, of a quotation from something that I had already > > posted on the list, and that too recently, with some elaboration. I > > thought it would be a tad repetitive. But anyway, since it makes my > > position on censorship very clear,I am happy to include it, at the risk > > of repetitiveness. > > > > Once again, Kshemendra, watch it. Don't be so hasty in the making of > > assumptions about what other people might have done, or not have done. > > Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent > > of other peoples' actions and opinions makes you (more than > > occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish. > > > > Take Care, don't stumble, don't rush, the surfaces you fall on are very > > hard. 'La La Land' is not a gentle sort of place. > > > > Shuddha > > > > My reply to Naeem (with the time and date stamp) is below. > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: Re: urgent > > Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:55:51 +0530 > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net > > Organization: Sarai > > To: Naeem Mohaiemen > > References: > > > > Dear Naeem, > > > > ... I did write about what I would censor, some time back, in the > > post titled 'The Attack on Taslima Nasrin in Hyderabad I' posted on the > > 18th of August, and maybe it is pertinent to what you wrote and this is > - > > > > "Similarly, if someone were to post photographic representations of > > children or animals in a pornographic form on any web forum or any other > > platform, I would call for its censorship, not because it is > > pornographic but because its implies sexual actions with implicitly > > unverifiable consent. Here, i would maintain that a drawn or written (as > > opposed to photographic) representation would not qualify in my view for > > censorship, though I would strongly criticse such a representation. > > Similarly, I would personally call for the censorship of the snuff > > videos of acts of beheading that jihadist groups in Iraq and elsewhere > > in the world are so fond of displaying on internet forums, or the > > photographic representations of hangings and public executions that the > > fascist and totalitarian regimes in Iran and China sometimes put out > > Not because I have a problem with the representation of violence per se, > > but because in these cases the act of representation itself is a > > violation of the liberty of those who are being killed. No one has asked > > them (the executed) for their consent to have their beheading or hanging > > put on public display. > > > > In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and > > expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a > > direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being > > of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant > > speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I > > would be willing to endorse the censorship of." > > > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would > > not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have > > written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, > > that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings > > for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, > > because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the > > right to stop other people from watching them. > > > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and > > m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want > > to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict > > censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above. > > > > Please post this argument if you find it necessary, I am a bit tired of > > posting on the list by now. > > > > thanks > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > "freedoms". > > > > > > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual > community" thought the question deserved an answer. > > > > > > The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to > answer. > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > PS: > > > Dear Naeem > > > > > > It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting > to make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from > you, I will understand. > > > > > > KK > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, > news, photos & more. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 00:05:17 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:35:17 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Coprolites and Regurgitaliths In-Reply-To: <46E98438.7030506@sarai.net> References: <46E98438.7030506@sarai.net> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709161135u21d9f9cfq4dc8ae89eb9fc36f@mail.gmail.com> On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Do you, does anyone, think there is an extra strong, industrial quality, > fossil crunching variety of Harpic? If anyone does, please do let me know, > unfortunately yes. after super sadhu rice and sufi soap there is jihadi toilet cleaner which is effective against all fossilized remains as well as historic shit like moenjo daro and gandhara. dont know how long it lasts but its corporeality ie its anti corporeality seems to thrive on underground as well as visible global capital. good luck with the cleaning. best From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 17 01:55:41 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:55:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> Dear All, This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total agreement with Pawan Durani. So, I thought I would break my silence. Thank you Pawan for the links that you have sent. I think that the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project is indeed a blueprint for the unfolding of a human tragedy and an ecological disaster. And I think it ranks along with the Narmada Dam Project as a plan that is deeply inimical to the interests and livelihoods of the people who will be affected by it most, namely local fisher folk (for whom the region is an age old natural fishing commons). I see no reason why ancient fishing practices and the delicate natural ecology of the region should have to be disrupted just so that Capitalism (in the form of ships carrying containers) and the Indian Navy's ships can gain a few hours while crossing from the west to the east coast of India. If for all these centures, ships have had to round the southern tip of Sri Lanka to move from the Arabian sea to the Bay of Bengal, and traverse the waters of the Indian Ocean region, I do not see why then the livelihoods of the inhabitants of the region have to be suddenly sacrified for them to be able to move faster.I see absolutely nothing wrong in insisting that the ships take the same time that they have always taken? However, I have also watched worthies from the Bharatiya Janata Party, especially, Shri Murli Manohar Joshi, present their 'alternative' project for the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project over the last few days on television - which is to cut a canal through the southern tip of the Deccan peninsula. And I think that proposal is just as much of a potential human and ecological disaster as the disruption of the Sethusamudram region. So the new found 'greening' of the BJP, needs to be understood for what it is. Yet another recipe for the displacement of people and the violent disruption of the landscape, on the same scale as Sardar Sarovar project and the proposed scheme to link rivers that was the pet project of the esteeemed erstwhile president of the Indian republic. I would like to point readers on the list to consider the tragic histories of Panama (a state, now a narco-republic, carved out in order to dig a canal) and the Suez canal (over which at least one major military conflict - the Suez crisis of 1956 erupted. I have no doubt that The BJP's recently found enthusiasm for cutting a canal through Southern India will no doubt create 'swadeshi' versions of narco-republicanism, and aggressive military posturing a la Panama and Suez. Also, on a parting note, let us not forget the decision by successive governments, controlled by the Congress or led by the BJP, that did not have any qualms about violating the delicate ecology of the Thar desert with Nuclear explostions, or completely destroying the equally delicate Himalayan glacial environment of Siachen in the part of Jammu and Kashmir occupied by India, by stationing troops, heavy artillery and continuing what must be one of the most tragic, bizarre, violent and wasteful military engagements with landscape in the history of the modern world. So, yes let us all demand that the Sethusamudram region be left alone, let us demand that no more nuclear explosions or tests ever take place in the Thar desert or anywhere in the landmass of all of South Asia, or in the Lop Nor plateau in Tibet, and let us demand also a unilateral ceasefire and troop withdrawal from Siachen, and let us demand immediate cessation of the Sardar Saroval Project on the river Narmada and that the river linking project be abandoned. I would be absolutely willing to assent to all these demands, and while doing so, I would also demand that those who took the decisions to conduct Nuclear Tests in Pokhran in India (in 1974 and in 1998) and in the Chagai Hills in Pakistan (in 1998) or on the Lop Nor plateau in Tiber offer uconditional apologies to the people of India, Pakistan and Tibet (and to all peoples in Asia) for the serious damage that these tests caused to the ecology of South and Central Asia. I sincerely hope that all of you will agree with me. regards Shuddha Pawan Durani wrote: > http://tamilinfoservice.com/manitham/environment/sscp/article/4.htm > > http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/tamilnadu/050404sethu.htm > > http://www.greensl.net/campaigns003.php > > http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/a-blunder-called-sethusamudram/ > > > Where are all those who had been talking about ecological disaster during > Narmada Dam project ? Why are they silent ? Where are the activists and > the film makers ? > > I do understand their problems and the "compulsions". > > God Bless ! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 17 02:07:24 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:07:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Coprolites and Regurgitaliths In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0709161135u21d9f9cfq4dc8ae89eb9fc36f@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E98438.7030506@sarai.net> <5af37bb0709161135u21d9f9cfq4dc8ae89eb9fc36f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46ED9404.6000409@sarai.net> thank you Yasir for your suggestion, I have thought long over what you said, but unfortunately, the option suggested by you, does not work against Jihadi coprolites and regurgitaliths, which bothers me just as much. Still looking Shuddha yasir ~ wrote: > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > >>Do you, does anyone, think there is an extra strong, industrial quality, >>fossil crunching variety of Harpic? If anyone does, please do let me know, >> > > > > unfortunately yes. after super sadhu rice and sufi soap there is > jihadi toilet cleaner which is effective against all fossilized > remains as well as historic shit like moenjo daro and gandhara. dont > know how long it lasts but its corporeality ie its anti corporeality > seems to thrive on underground as well as visible global capital. good > luck with the cleaning. best > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 04:45:51 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:15:51 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Coprolites and Regurgitaliths In-Reply-To: <46ED9404.6000409@sarai.net> References: <46E98438.7030506@sarai.net> <5af37bb0709161135u21d9f9cfq4dc8ae89eb9fc36f@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9404.6000409@sarai.net> Message-ID: <5af37bb0709161615w9450berffc974e7d7975f11@mail.gmail.com> its all in the flux you know. what dilutes what. what dissolves what. what flips and mutates out of fear and/or destruction. what negotiates and manages. what decomposes by itself. and what just lingers. till you find it... best On 9/16/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > thank you Yasir for your suggestion, I have thought long over what you > said, but unfortunately, the option suggested by you, does not work > against Jihadi coprolites and regurgitaliths, which bothers me just as much. > > Still looking > > Shuddha > > > yasir ~ wrote: > > > On 9/13/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > >>Do you, does anyone, think there is an extra strong, industrial quality, > >>fossil crunching variety of Harpic? If anyone does, please do let me know, > >> > > > > > > > > unfortunately yes. after super sadhu rice and sufi soap there is > > jihadi toilet cleaner which is effective against all fossilized > > remains as well as historic shit like moenjo daro and gandhara. dont > > know how long it lasts but its corporeality ie its anti corporeality > > seems to thrive on underground as well as visible global capital. good > > luck with the cleaning. best > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From zainabbawa at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 08:51:18 2007 From: zainabbawa at yahoo.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal Message-ID: <308796.65594.qm@web36104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul, One of the problems in our imagination of 'the situation' in Kashmir is that we attribute all violence to Pakistan which is really not the whole picture. The Indian government carries out state-sponsored terrorism in the Valley. I think it is important to consider this when we discussion 'the situation' in Kashmir and 'solutions' to 'the problem'. Just as some people want Yasin Malik to apologize in public for the wrongs he has done, I would want the Indian government to openly accept and apologize for the historical wrongs and the violence it has perpetrated in the Valley. Without this acceptance, the thought of any 'solution' is incomplete and problematic in my line of thinking. You may choose to disagree with me on this. The other thing which has been on my mind ever since my first visit to Kashmir in 2002 is what is 'pragmatic' or what is 'idealistic' and who defines these lines for Kashmir? I don't mean to get into a philosophical discussion but in my point of view, how non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the ideal? If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to aspire for the ideal and to dream, would not this world be a very average/substandard place to live in? I would be very unhappy living in a world like this! Best, Zainab On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:30:01 +0530, "Vishal Rawlley" wrote: > Dear Rahul, > > After you posted your problems with self-determination in Kashmir, I had > replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you a question: we now know the > problems you have pointed out, but we want to know your proposed solution, > can you post your answer please. Thank you. > >>> > In response to Rahul I had said: > > Very well said. You have a right to your own opinions and have provided > good > reasoning for it too. However, it does not necessarily mean that everyone > has to agree with you. Other people have a right to their own viewpoints > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your views. If you are > convinced that your views are superior than others, then its their loss > that > they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes to decide the best > viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile keep refining your > arguments. > Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who won't listen. > > Many successive Indian governments have tried the policy that you are > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now what to do? What is > the > correct solution? Can you put it down step by step, just like you put down > all the problems point by point? > > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution, which was: withdrawal > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian and under Pakistani > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space to decide - after > considering all the problems that you mentioned - whether they want to be > independent or be with either country (entirely or partly, as in partly > autonomous). > > I do not know this if solution of theirs will work, what do you think? > Maybe > this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide and they might kill each > other some more before they arrive at a plan. But at least they will not > be > able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems better than wasting our > money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us forcefully. > > Do you have a better plan? Tell us please. > > -Vishal > > > > > > On 9/16/07, Rahul Asthana wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I do not see the email shveta replied to in the >> list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my >> response to Vishal and it has my argument as to why >> the nation may resort to censorship in some cases-to >> be specific,why it would censor something that >> promotes self determination in Kashmir. >> Here goes again.If it was already posted to the >> list,my apologies. >> >> Hi Vishal, >> That was a great post.I mean the original one.I find >> my faculties of expression inadequate to connect to >> passionate people in general and ladies in >> particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of >> "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again. >> Now,many people think that A united and independent >> Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution to >> this 60 year old dispute. >> This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont >> think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but who >> are the stakeholders in such type of a >> solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required here. >> What I or you think should happen, would not affect >> reality one bit. >> Nations dont work on such canonical moral >> principles.For getting anywhere near to the solution >> of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip with >> realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit from >> an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir itself.As >> for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN >> reiterates a policy of non interference and >> bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb the >> other party to come to a solution. Nor can any country >> bleed the other to a point of submission by terrorism >> etc. >> Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India >> a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the >> North East, >> b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and India >> would not be comfortable with that going in a >> different country. >> c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not to >> try to usurp any further territory. >> d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a >> disputed territory and if any party is perceived to go >> soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult time >> to get elected again. >> So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint >> gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it >> may have to do or it may have to tolerate. >> I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there is >> the one water treaty,for them to have reservations in >> wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what >> interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those >> Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether >> there is an internal political spin to it. >> Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region >> with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign >> state,it will also have problems with its non uniform >> demographics. There would always be some sort of >> strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of an >> option would only guarantee the continuation of some >> kind of trouble in the region. >> So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost >> impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would >> not allow it to happen,without consideration for >> Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. >> Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in >> the solution of the problem.Most of all the Kashmiris. >> Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense >> expenditure). A solution is a win win option for >> everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and >> pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their >> idealism;because its a matter of life and death for >> many people. >> And,above all , all concerned parties should drop this >> holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and >> come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to >> everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their >> stated positions. >> By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I >> know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been a >> Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine >> theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion >> would have been the same. >> regards >> Rahul >> >> >> >> >> > ____________________________________________________________________________________ >> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you > all >> the tools to get online. >> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: Zainab Bawa Mumbai www.xanga.com/citybytes ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From sen.gargi at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 08:54:42 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:54:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal Message-ID: Dear Rahul, the R of ARKP, I hope your post below is able to rest Khemendra's mind (I am getting so very fond of that man) and explain exactly why I clubbed you into the the mob. It is simply because you share an inability to imagine. Just listen carefully to your own arguments This is my response to Vishal and it has my argument as to why the nation may resort to censorship in some cases-to be specific,why it would censor something that promotes self determination in Kashmir. Just for your information - the nation/ state/ nation state/ whatever did not censor Jashn-e-azadi. A group of disgruntled Kashmiri Pundits did. Now since when did this bunch of KPs become the 'nation' whatever that may be? And how come YOU choose the side of one KP against the other? After all the director himself is a KP. For your information a nation, even this great one, does not 'censor'. This one makes it mandatory a pre-censorship of films only. The only art form requiring pre-censoring is a film (exception Gujarat that requires the scripts of plays being performed to be censored.) You can write a book, create poetry, paint and publicly display, but you can not do so with film. Many of us believe that the government¹s policies are discriminatory if not downright unethical. No one has the right to censor ­ and I am not talking about regulations. Now on personal, political and ethical grounds many independent filmmakers will not apply for censorship for their film. And that is a stated, collectivised political position. And this community still does it, knowing jolly well the consequences. Also, getting a censor certificate does not mean that the film will not run into controversy, be stopped, or banned. Perzania is the latest in this list. Of course there are many stopped by the lunatic fringe. However, what is often missed by filmmakers themselves also is how the Œcontrolled market¹ being peddled by the money bags as Œfree market¹ also effectively blocks the film¹s run. And try selling this argument of yours to Ashok Pundit and the ARKP who quite successfully screen another film on KPs migration from valley. A tear jerker called And the World Remained Silent (or something similar.) No state or no nation has stepped in to stop that one. This discussion can go on forever. But only when you have your arguments properly constructed. AND incidentally, I am a woman. AND I hope you can get over your squeamishness about Œladies¹ to engage with me Now,many people think that A united and independent Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution to this 60 year old dispute. Right, and I am one of those. AND a woman to boot. This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont think that is gonna happen. Why not Rahul? History provides information to the contrary. You and I would not be citizens of a so-called free nation if such things were not Œgonna¹ happen. And remember my gender. Nations dont work on such canonical moral principles.For getting anywhere near to the solution of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip with realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit from an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir itself.As for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN reiterates a policy of non interference and bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb the other party to come to a solution. Nor can any country bleed the other to a point of submission by terrorism etc. I agree. But what about the Kashmiri people? The Kashmiris themselves? Don¹t they have ANY stake in these geo-political stakes? Should they care? Should the people of India have cared when in 1947 it was inconvenient for the INDIAN govt to give up their Œjewel in the crown?¹ Or even in more recent history should it have mattered to the people of erstwhile East Pakistan how inconvenient it was for the government based in west Pakistan that had over-ruled a democratically chosen leader who happened to be from East Pakistan, imprisoned him and initiated the marshal law in East Pakistan, how terribly, terribly inconvenient it was for West Pakistan to face an united forced, united by language (of a kind at least)? Should they have cared? Or should the people of Jharkhand, Chhatisgarh or even Uttaranchal (although I really prefer Uttarakhand) have cared how their insisting on a state of their own have made their mother states to face huge revenue loss? Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the North East, b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and India would not be comfortable with that going in a different country. c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not to try to usurp any further territory. d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a disputed territory and if any party is perceived to go soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult time to get elected again. So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it may have to do or it may have to tolerate. Do you have any support to bolster these arguments? Especially the last? Many of us even on this list believe Kashmir is occupied by the Indian military. And incidentally I am a woman. I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there is the one water treaty,for them to have reservations in wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether there is an internal political spin to it. Now that¹s interesting. The water treaty that India has with Pakistan. Have you ever wondered why despite 3 wars (and these were wars where armies and the airforce bombarded each other and NOT the new definition of war wherein you pulverise a nation to dust, slap an embargo on it for 11 years, take out all its military strength, cry Œweapons-of-mass-destruction¹ and begin bombing again AGAINST the opinion of the entire world this time. India Pakistan at least fought some kind of a skirmish closer in meaning to the term Œwar¹ ), have you wondered why despite such military provocations and aggression, the water treaty is left sacro-sanct? AND why does you great government NOT have even the courtesy of language while writing water treaties with Bangladesh? And you can forget looking for anything like a treaty with Nepal. After all the economic power of this powerful state ensures that you can walk into Nepal even without a visa. Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign state,it will also have problems with its non uniform demographics. There would always be some sort of strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of an option would only guarantee the continuation of some kind of trouble in the region. Landlocked. Scant resources. Non-uniform demography. Now that¹s interesting Rahul. So all nations described by these definitions should immediately begin to secede to their neighbour? Right? Open your school geography book Rahul and look at the map of the world. And please make a list of all the nations that must immediately cease to be as they are landlocked, with scant resources and with non-uniform demography. And remember you are now arguing with a woman. So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would not allow it to happen,without consideration for Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in the solution of the problem.Most of all the Kashmiris. Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense expenditure). A solution is a win win option for everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their idealism;because its a matter of life and death for many people. Right, now we talk pragmatism. After dishing out useless, non-substantiated arguments now you tell me to be pragmatic. But Rahul dear, the word Romance is equivocally opposed to the word Pragmatic. And worlds get changed by romantics, not pragmatics. Don¹t believe me? Read you school books of history. And,above all , all concerned parties should drop this holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their stated positions. Who are the concerned parties? The ARKP? The film Jashn-e-azadi? Who exactly Rahul? By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been a Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion would have been the same. regards Rahul And that truly is the very unfortunate part of your mind. Despite serious shifts in geography, philosophy and the state of mind, your mind is fixated, ossified, focused, uni-directional. You don¹t know but you must send a LONG post about position that you can neither defend nor justify. That¹s why Rahul dear you¹re the R in my list of ARKP. Get? Now remember I have been reminding you of my gender through out? That is just so that you can answer these powerful words from a sender-of-post Sveta who I know only through her post ³ In a way lists are fairly revelatory of implicit acceptances... & are private mail abuses to women list subscribers not a clear sign of how recklessly these implicits can be performed without any check or restraint, and very assured that there will be no consequence to it³ I do want to believe that that is not so. That there will be consequences. On no other space on this world perhaps but for certain on this virtual space. So Rahul dear do me a favour. Look up my namesake Gargi spelled G-A-R-G-I (or read one of the Sarai Readers) about who she was and how she argued. She was finally shut up by the sage Yagyavalka, cornered by her arguments, because of her gender. Now today, with perhaps one hundreth of the intellectual and informational base of the original Gargi (BUT with access to toilet cleaners, chinese lawyers and the wikipedia) I challenge you Rahul to argue, with reason and logic without squeamishness of gender and at least construct something of value. Not just opinions and hot air. And if you can¹t argue with me, a woman, allow me to remind you of a North-Indian/ western South Asian, deeply patriarchal insult: wear bangles and sit at home. (I hate this saying. I am simply reminding you of it.) Gargi ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: From parthaekka at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 09:09:18 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:09:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Quieting the Monkey Mind In-Reply-To: <311048.84031.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <311048.84031.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709162039j12eb7641q46f7821c156fd7d1@mail.gmail.com> Hi Dhatri, Just so that I'm clear in my mind, some questions 1. Does your post signify that we should change the caste based hierarchy or that we should not? 2. I certainly agree that crying over 'spilt milk' won't help. However, if you have an old wound that is troubling you, ignoring it is counter productive. At the end of the day, everything boils down to the issue that if it is a healing scab, then let it be - however, if it is a fracture or something more serious, then it needs medical attention. 3. Besides monkeys, jihad and changing street names, what was the point of this post. Rgds, Partha ................ On 9/16/07, we wi wrote: > > "The monkey mind jumps from thought to thought like a monkey jumps from > tree to tree. Rather than existing in the present moment, the monkey mind > focuses on one thought after another, and these thoughts distract us from > exisiting in the present, which is one of the goals of yoga. Sitting in > meditation is a good way to see the monkey mind in its natural habitat. Just > sitting still and clearing the mind is so challenging. You observe one > thought popping up, and another, and another. This is inevitable, especially > when you are getting started. The trick is to learn to observe the thoughts > without engaging in them. An analogy I like is to see the mind as the sky > and the thoughts like clouds passing through. Whether you are meditating > or practicing asanas, returning your attention again and again to the breath > will always help you detach from the thoughts and return to the present > moment. Each inhale and exhale exists only in the present. When you are > doing asanas, remind > yourself to use Ocean Breathing (Ujjayi) each time you catch yourself > thinking. " > > As the monkey handled in better way in the above, so as the > perpetrators and their actions. Atricities in the name of jihad will never > be treated as simple childish moves and so as the shouters. Caste based > system is there in India, like wise Racism in the rest of the > world. Fighting for them is no way usefull except to turn the things > perpetrators favour to make things more worsen. Start thinking to build > unique nation INDIA and participate constructively in its development for > the sake of all Indians. Changing place names,killing people,wiping out > sanskrit universities, lamenting monuments wont help in any way. > > > > --------------------------------- > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user > panel and lay it on us. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From parthaekka at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 09:17:41 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:17:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <222549.4870.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <31d5ea920709141012i7c9953e6xc01a5050e36a1003@mail.gmail.com> <222549.4870.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709162047y2b2d5f5dlcb16d469f0a9c63f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Dhatri, I do wish you'd read the information I referred to about the origin of zero - it is NOT from India. We had a lot to do with decimals and the point system but we did not 'invent' the zero. And you can check that on wikepidia that you so often copy-paste from. Rgds, Partha On 9/16/07, we wi wrote: > > This idea is not for creating money, but the main theme is to claim > IPR/PATENTS for 0 UNDER GATT/WTO agreements to control the betrayals. Any > way people and countries need not worry that India may monopolise > 0. Aryabhatta defined the mathematics means there should have lecturers at > NALANDA University to mentor him, and so as material available to produce > the accurate thesis and so as the contemporaries. "ARYABHATTIYAM" is just a > book available and might be many more books kept under safe hands of people > in India like RAJATARANGINI. The debate and search should go on until we > come to an agreement about what are rules we frame and produce for patenting > and IPR at WTO approval. > > Vishal Rawlley wrote: > Dhatri-ji said: > > " --On 0, > ... > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members aware > that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva pact. Under > this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and applicable > to India? Let me explain more scientifically. > Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate > on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and > get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO > Pact should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever > COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not > uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to > use 0 for general purposes. It depends again." > > I say: > Why no response by any "intellectual" on this question of "0" > importance??? > > But Dhatri saahab, if we patent "0" and charge for its usage, won't > people give us a "0" amount in return?? They will say:"scientifically" > speaking, we have only zero to offer in return of a zero! > > These Indians, I tell you, they are smart but they do not know how to > profit from their smartness, we shall therefore remain poor only, alas. Hai > Rama. > > Now if we had invented I, II, III, V, X, XX, XXX, L, M etc. as the smart > Romans did, then we should most defenitely have patented all those and > charged IIIVXXXLM.... amounts for each single use and then we would have > been a super power already and Akhand Bharat could have been a reality!!! > > Now I hope no Romans read this and use this idea against us. Then, for > example, each student going to standard IV might have to pay IV Euros to > them. That will surely ruin our education system. No? Then only the children > in 'chauthi kaksha' (fourth grade) from hindi medium schools would be able > to afford education, as they never even used the IV notation! Maybe, that > will turn out to be a good thing after all! Hindi is really suffering in > this country and so are all the regional languages. What say? > > Jai Hind!!! > > -Vishal > > > > > > > > > > On 9/12/07, we wi wrote: Dear Readers including > Junaid in particular, > > Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from Gujarat > . If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, Dhatri == > Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother Earth. If you have > patience to look at these terms just go through the entire link or just fire > a find (Cntl+F) and type these terms over there. > > http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm > > To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - > > I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh parishaths, > Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. India HINDU comes first > and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen of India, Valid Passport holder, > It's my Constitutional right to vote as per my choice and live. Those all > who never completed schooling and aware of India > Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices to > enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. > > Focusing on the topic now, > > What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing converse logic > and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. > >If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in the >same > month as India, so perhaps they might reply by dispatching some >of them > into India if India goes for hot chases, surgical strikes, >masala dosas, > bhel pooris etc. > > > > YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like India). > > Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical > > Induction,on Junaid statement > "Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" > > so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not move out of > their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how > India can execute it later. > > --Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier > > Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata > Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham > TRANSLATION > Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata, and a > rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! > OR > Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O > descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I > descend myself. > So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple understanding is the > 9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more remaining to come. The followers > of Buddhism now misunderstood it. > > --And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to the world > or a bunch of people like you. What to do if people/countries like you are > betraying then bullying is the last sort of option. I don't know how many > of the readers aware of this but happy to quote from the first Para of the > post > > --Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth > http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business > > --On 0, > Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, > understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and joviality > (professor student) and your will in favor/against PATENTING and IPR is > nothing to do with the practicalities. You may say that countries/you can > use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN WAY. No problem you/countries can write > whatever the way they wish to use. > > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members aware > that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva pact. Under > this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and applicable > to India? Let me explain more scientifically. > Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate > on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and > get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO > Pact should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever > COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not > uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to > use 0 for general purposes. It depends again. > > Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear dispatch, > for moving them people need INDIA permission. > > We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and need a > motivated, will powered political system to execute this. This is feasible > 99%. > > Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. > > --On points 1,2,3 > You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and Sadhus Shri > Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). Because they are all > sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You will never compare them with > Aurangazeb. > For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its boarders from > Alexander to British > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka > 3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra > 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana > > For your better understanding > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > -- On points 4,5 > Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your writing are in > genuine, I request you to please > > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne > > -- On points 6,7,8 > Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna daughter is > dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it till her teenage > (before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. |This is the fact and for your > kind information. I pity for Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah sister > who migrated to Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR is > an Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from Pakistan > and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid or like > personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to vacate peaks occupied > and offered. > Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive India is > ready welcome the kid. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > --------------------------------- > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > --------------------------------- > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! > Games. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From parthaekka at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 09:31:32 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:31:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> Message-ID: <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> Hi, As an aside, had an offline chat with Pawan when he mentioned that he plans to plant a 1000 trees - something so simple yet so important that I didn't even remember it. The basics are simple steps we can take that will make a difference in the long run. And yes, I do agree that our shattered environment (including the Sethusamudram project) needs a serious rethink as to where the ecology is going. Rgds, Partha .................. On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear All, > > This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total > agreement with Pawan Durani. So, I thought I would break my silence. > Thank you Pawan for the links that you have sent. > > I think that the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project is indeed a blueprint > for the unfolding of a human tragedy and an ecological disaster. And I > think it ranks along with the Narmada Dam Project as a plan that is > deeply inimical to the interests and livelihoods of the people who will > be affected by it most, namely local fisher folk (for whom the region is > an age old natural fishing commons). > > I see no reason why ancient fishing practices and the delicate natural > ecology of the region should have to be disrupted just so that > Capitalism (in the form of ships carrying containers) and the Indian > Navy's ships can gain a few hours while crossing from the west to the > east coast of India. If for all these centures, ships have had to round > the southern tip of Sri Lanka to move from the Arabian sea to the Bay of > Bengal, and traverse the waters of the Indian Ocean region, I do not see > why then the livelihoods of the inhabitants of the region have to be > suddenly sacrified for them to be able to move faster.I see absolutely > nothing wrong in insisting that the ships take the same time that they > have always taken? > > However, I have also watched worthies from the Bharatiya Janata Party, > especially, Shri Murli Manohar Joshi, present their 'alternative' > project for the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project over the last few days > on television - which is to cut a canal through the southern tip of the > Deccan peninsula. And I think that proposal is just as much of a > potential human and ecological disaster as the disruption of the > Sethusamudram region. So the new found 'greening' of the BJP, needs to > be understood for what it is. Yet another recipe for the displacement of > people and the violent disruption of the landscape, on the same scale as > Sardar Sarovar project and the proposed scheme to link rivers that was > the pet project of the esteeemed erstwhile president of the Indian > republic. > > I would like to point readers on the list to consider the tragic > histories of Panama (a state, now a narco-republic, carved out in order > to dig a canal) and the Suez canal (over which at least one major > military conflict - the Suez crisis of 1956 erupted. I have no doubt > that The BJP's recently found enthusiasm for cutting a canal through > Southern India will no doubt create 'swadeshi' versions of > narco-republicanism, and aggressive military posturing a la Panama and > Suez. > > Also, on a parting note, let us not forget the decision by successive > governments, controlled by the Congress or led by the BJP, that did not > have any qualms about violating the delicate ecology of the Thar desert > with Nuclear explostions, or completely destroying the equally delicate > Himalayan glacial environment of Siachen in the part of Jammu and > Kashmir occupied by India, by stationing troops, heavy artillery and > continuing what must be one of the most tragic, bizarre, violent and > wasteful military engagements with landscape in the history of the > modern world. > > So, yes let us all demand that the Sethusamudram region be left alone, > let us demand that no more nuclear explosions or tests ever take place > in the Thar desert or anywhere in the landmass of all of South Asia, or > in the Lop Nor plateau in Tibet, and let us demand also a unilateral > ceasefire and troop withdrawal from Siachen, and let us demand immediate > cessation of the Sardar Saroval Project on the river Narmada and that > the river linking project be abandoned. I would be absolutely willing to > assent to all these demands, and while doing so, I would also demand > that those who took the decisions to conduct Nuclear Tests in Pokhran in > India (in 1974 and in 1998) and in the Chagai Hills in Pakistan (in > 1998) or on the Lop Nor plateau in Tiber offer uconditional apologies to > the people of India, Pakistan and Tibet (and to all peoples in Asia) for > the serious damage that these tests caused to the ecology of South and > Central Asia. > > I sincerely hope that all of you will agree with me. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > http://tamilinfoservice.com/manitham/environment/sscp/article/4.htm > > > > http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/tamilnadu/050404sethu.htm > > > > http://www.greensl.net/campaigns003.php > > > > http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/a-blunder-called-sethusamudram/ > > > > > > Where are all those who had been talking about ecological disaster > during > > Narmada Dam project ? Why are they silent ? Where are the > activists and > > the film makers ? > > > > I do understand their problems and the "compulsions". > > > > God Bless ! > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 10:37:59 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:37:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709162207y15067ffcy8e9864cb3d0e2f0d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddhaa , S of SAP. 1. And the World remained Silent has a censor certificate . 2. Please correct your statement ....it is not Indian occupied Kashmir , But Indian Kashmir . Few words here and there makes a difference. 3. Walking into Nepal does not have anything to do with Indias economic power. Had it been the case Burma was a much poorer neighboring country. 4. ARKP is a party to Kashmir issue , being the aborgonies of the land where our history goes back to 5000 years +. For , Shudhaaa , a person who jumps at every instenve whenever yasin maliks name is taken , ARKP is a problem...... Is that what is much similar to Stockholm Syndrome ? Pawan Durani On 9/17/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > > Dear Rahul, the R of ARKP, > I hope your post below is able to rest Khemendra's mind (I am getting so > very fond of that man) and explain exactly why I clubbed you into the the > mob. It is simply because you share an inability to imagine. > > Just listen carefully to your own arguments > > This is my > response to Vishal and it has my argument as to why > the nation may resort to censorship in some cases-to > be specific,why it would censor something that > promotes self determination in Kashmir. > > > Just for your information - the nation/ state/ nation state/ whatever did > not censor Jashn-e-azadi. A group of disgruntled Kashmiri Pundits did. > Now > since when did this bunch of KPs become the 'nation' whatever that may be? > And how come YOU choose the side of one KP against the other? After all > the > director himself is a KP. > > For your information a nation, even this great one, does not 'censor'. > This > one makes it mandatory a pre-censorship of films only. The only art form > requiring pre-censoring is a film (exception Gujarat that requires the > scripts of plays being performed to be censored.) You can write a book, > create poetry, paint and publicly display, but you can not do so with > film. > Many of us believe that the government¹s policies are discriminatory if > not > downright unethical. No one has the right to censor ­ and I am not talking > about regulations. Now on personal, political and ethical grounds many > independent filmmakers will not apply for censorship for their film. And > that is a stated, collectivised political position. And this community > still > does it, knowing jolly well the consequences. > Also, getting a censor certificate does not mean that the film will not > run > into controversy, be stopped, or banned. Perzania is the latest in this > list. Of course there are many stopped by the lunatic fringe. However, > what > is often missed by filmmakers themselves also is how the Œcontrolled > market¹ > being peddled by the money bags as Œfree market¹ also effectively blocks > the > film¹s run. > And try selling this argument of yours to Ashok Pundit and the ARKP who > quite successfully screen another film on KPs migration from valley. A > tear > jerker called And the World Remained Silent (or something similar.) No > state > or no nation has stepped in to stop that one. > This discussion can go on forever. But only when you have your arguments > properly constructed. > AND incidentally, I am a woman. AND I hope you can get over your > squeamishness about Œladies¹ to engage with me > > > Now,many people think that A united and independent > Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution to > this 60 year old dispute. > > Right, and I am one of those. AND a woman to boot. > > > This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont > think that is gonna happen. > > Why not Rahul? History provides information to the contrary. You and I > would > not be citizens of a so-called free nation if such things were not Œgonna¹ > happen. And remember my gender. > > Nations dont work on such canonical moral > principles.For getting anywhere near to the solution > of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip with > realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit from > an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir itself.As > for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN > reiterates a policy of non interference and > bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb the > other party to come to a solution. Nor can any country > bleed the other to a point of submission by terrorism > etc. > > I agree. But what about the Kashmiri people? The Kashmiris themselves? > Don¹t > they have ANY stake in these geo-political stakes? Should they care? > Should > the people of India have cared when in 1947 it was inconvenient for the > INDIAN govt to give up their Œjewel in the crown?¹ Or even in more recent > history should it have mattered to the people of erstwhile East Pakistan > how > inconvenient it was for the government based in west Pakistan that had > over-ruled a democratically chosen leader who happened to be from East > Pakistan, imprisoned him and initiated the marshal law in East Pakistan, > how > terribly, terribly inconvenient it was for West Pakistan to face an united > forced, united by language (of a kind at least)? Should they have cared? > Or > should the people of Jharkhand, Chhatisgarh or even Uttaranchal (although > I > really prefer Uttarakhand) have cared how their insisting on a state of > their own have made their mother states to face huge revenue loss? > > Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India > a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the > North East, > b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and India > would not be comfortable with that going in a > different country. > c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not to > try to usurp any further territory. > d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a > disputed territory and if any party is perceived to go > soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult time > to get elected again. > So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint > gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it > may have to do or it may have to tolerate. > > Do you have any support to bolster these arguments? Especially the last? > Many of us even on this list believe Kashmir is occupied by the Indian > military. And incidentally I am a woman. > > I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there is > the one water treaty,for them to have reservations in > wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what > interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those > Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether > there is an internal political spin to it. > > Now that¹s interesting. The water treaty that India has with Pakistan. > Have > you ever wondered why despite 3 wars (and these were wars where armies and > the airforce bombarded each other and NOT the new definition of war > wherein > you pulverise a nation to dust, slap an embargo on it for 11 years, take > out > all its military strength, cry Œweapons-of-mass-destruction¹ and begin > bombing again AGAINST the opinion of the entire world this time. India > Pakistan at least fought some kind of a skirmish closer in meaning to the > term Œwar¹ ), have you wondered why despite such military provocations and > aggression, the water treaty is left sacro-sanct? AND why does you great > government NOT have even the courtesy of language while writing water > treaties with Bangladesh? And you can forget looking for anything like a > treaty with Nepal. After all the economic power of this powerful state > ensures that you can walk into Nepal even without a visa. > > Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region > with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign > state,it will also have problems with its non uniform > demographics. There would always be some sort of > strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of an > option would only guarantee the continuation of some > kind of trouble in the region. > > Landlocked. Scant resources. Non-uniform demography. Now that¹s > interesting > Rahul. So all nations described by these definitions should immediately > begin to secede to their neighbour? Right? Open your school geography book > Rahul and look at the map of the world. And please make a list of all the > nations that must immediately cease to be as they are landlocked, with > scant > resources and with non-uniform demography. And remember you are now > arguing > with a woman. > > So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost > impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would > not allow it to happen,without consideration for > Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. > Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in > the solution of the problem.Most of all the Kashmiris. > Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense > expenditure). A solution is a win win option for > everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and > pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their > idealism;because its a matter of life and death for > many people. > > Right, now we talk pragmatism. After dishing out useless, > non-substantiated > arguments now you tell me to be pragmatic. But Rahul dear, the word > Romance > is equivocally opposed to the word Pragmatic. And worlds get changed by > romantics, not pragmatics. Don¹t believe me? Read you school books of > history. > > And,above all , all concerned parties should drop this > holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and > come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to > everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their > stated positions. > > Who are the concerned parties? The ARKP? The film Jashn-e-azadi? Who > exactly Rahul? > > By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I > know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been a > Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine > theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion > would have been the same. > regards > Rahul > > And that truly is the very unfortunate part of your mind. Despite serious > shifts in geography, philosophy and the state of mind, your mind is > fixated, > ossified, focused, uni-directional. You don¹t know but you must send a > LONG > post about position that you can neither defend nor justify. > > That¹s why Rahul dear you¹re the R in my list of ARKP. Get? > > Now remember I have been reminding you of my gender through out? That is > just so that you can answer these powerful words from a sender-of-post > Sveta > who I know only through her post > > ³ In a way lists are fairly revelatory of implicit acceptances... & are > private mail abuses to women list subscribers not a clear sign of how > recklessly these implicits can be performed without any check or > restraint, > and very assured that there will be no consequence to it³ > > I do want to believe that that is not so. That there will be consequences. > On no other space on this world perhaps but for certain on this virtual > space. So Rahul dear do me a favour. Look up my namesake Gargi spelled > G-A-R-G-I (or read one of the Sarai Readers) about who she was and how she > argued. She was finally shut up by the sage Yagyavalka, cornered by her > arguments, because of her gender. > > Now today, with perhaps one hundreth of the intellectual and informational > base of the original Gargi (BUT with access to toilet cleaners, chinese > lawyers and the wikipedia) I challenge you Rahul to argue, with reason and > logic without squeamishness of gender and at least construct something of > value. Not just opinions and hot air. And if you can¹t argue with me, a > woman, allow me to remind you of a North-Indian/ western South Asian, > deeply > patriarchal insult: wear bangles and sit at home. (I hate this saying. I > am > simply reminding you of it.) > > Gargi > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > ________ > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you > all the tools to get online. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 10:41:39 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:41:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> Shuddha , Thank you for your concern on Sethu Samudram , besides ecological disaster it is a matter of faith as well. Even the developemnt is not going to be of major use, its a financial disaster. Pawan On 9/17/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi, > > As an aside, had an offline chat with Pawan when he mentioned that he > plans to plant a 1000 trees - something so simple yet so important that I > didn't even remember it. > > The basics are simple steps we can take that will make a difference in the > long run. And yes, I do agree that our shattered environment (including the > Sethusamudram project) needs a serious rethink as to where the ecology is > going. > > Rgds, Partha > .................. > > On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total > > agreement with Pawan Durani. So, I thought I would break my silence. > > Thank you Pawan for the links that you have sent. > > > > I think that the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project is indeed a blueprint > > for the unfolding of a human tragedy and an ecological disaster. And I > > think it ranks along with the Narmada Dam Project as a plan that is > > deeply inimical to the interests and livelihoods of the people who will > > be affected by it most, namely local fisher folk (for whom the region is > > an age old natural fishing commons). > > > > I see no reason why ancient fishing practices and the delicate natural > > ecology of the region should have to be disrupted just so that > > Capitalism (in the form of ships carrying containers) and the Indian > > Navy's ships can gain a few hours while crossing from the west to the > > east coast of India. If for all these centures, ships have had to round > > the southern tip of Sri Lanka to move from the Arabian sea to the Bay of > > Bengal, and traverse the waters of the Indian Ocean region, I do not see > > why then the livelihoods of the inhabitants of the region have to be > > suddenly sacrified for them to be able to move faster.I see absolutely > > nothing wrong in insisting that the ships take the same time that they > > have always taken? > > > > However, I have also watched worthies from the Bharatiya Janata Party, > > especially, Shri Murli Manohar Joshi, present their 'alternative' > > project for the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project over the last few days > > on television - which is to cut a canal through the southern tip of the > > Deccan peninsula. And I think that proposal is just as much of a > > potential human and ecological disaster as the disruption of the > > Sethusamudram region. So the new found 'greening' of the BJP, needs to > > be understood for what it is. Yet another recipe for the displacement of > > people and the violent disruption of the landscape, on the same scale as > > Sardar Sarovar project and the proposed scheme to link rivers that was > > the pet project of the esteeemed erstwhile president of the Indian > > republic. > > > > I would like to point readers on the list to consider the tragic > > histories of Panama (a state, now a narco-republic, carved out in order > > to dig a canal) and the Suez canal (over which at least one major > > military conflict - the Suez crisis of 1956 erupted. I have no doubt > > that The BJP's recently found enthusiasm for cutting a canal through > > Southern India will no doubt create 'swadeshi' versions of > > narco-republicanism, and aggressive military posturing a la Panama and > > Suez. > > > > Also, on a parting note, let us not forget the decision by successive > > governments, controlled by the Congress or led by the BJP, that did not > > have any qualms about violating the delicate ecology of the Thar desert > > with Nuclear explostions, or completely destroying the equally delicate > > Himalayan glacial environment of Siachen in the part of Jammu and > > Kashmir occupied by India, by stationing troops, heavy artillery and > > continuing what must be one of the most tragic, bizarre, violent and > > wasteful military engagements with landscape in the history of the > > modern world. > > > > So, yes let us all demand that the Sethusamudram region be left alone, > > let us demand that no more nuclear explosions or tests ever take place > > in the Thar desert or anywhere in the landmass of all of South Asia, or > > in the Lop Nor plateau in Tibet, and let us demand also a unilateral > > ceasefire and troop withdrawal from Siachen, and let us demand immediate > > cessation of the Sardar Saroval Project on the river Narmada and that > > the river linking project be abandoned. I would be absolutely willing to > > assent to all these demands, and while doing so, I would also demand > > that those who took the decisions to conduct Nuclear Tests in Pokhran in > > > > India (in 1974 and in 1998) and in the Chagai Hills in Pakistan (in > > 1998) or on the Lop Nor plateau in Tiber offer uconditional apologies to > > the people of India, Pakistan and Tibet (and to all peoples in Asia) for > > > > the serious damage that these tests caused to the ecology of South and > > Central Asia. > > > > I sincerely hope that all of you will agree with me. > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > http://tamilinfoservice.com/manitham/environment/sscp/article/4.htm > > > > > > http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/tamilnadu/050404sethu.htm > > > > > > http://www.greensl.net/campaigns003.php > > > > > > http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/a-blunder-called-sethusamudram/ > > > > > > > > > Where are all those who had been talking about ecological disaster > > during > > > Narmada Dam project ? Why are they silent ? Where are the > > activists and > > > the film makers ? > > > > > > I do understand their problems and the "compulsions". > > > > > > God Bless ! > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 17 10:54:31 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:54:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709162207y15067ffcy8e9864cb3d0e2f0d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709162207y15067ffcy8e9864cb3d0e2f0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EE0F8F.4070703@sarai.net> Dear, er, Pawan, I dont quite know whom you are addressing, as this is Shuddha, not Gargi. The email you are responding to was written by Gargi, not by me, and it would be correct if you were to address your response to her, not to me. The email address in the address line on the email you have written, along with that of the Reader List is Gargi's, and yet, you begin your post by saying 'Dear Shuddha, S of SAP'. Is there some confusion here? Are you confused? Or are you so habituated by now in terms of attacking me that you see me as your antagonist, even when I am, er, not there? Do you need help? Are you projecting some identity crisis of your own on to other people on the list? I merely broke my silence in my communication with you momentarily to agree with your concerns about the Sethusamudram project. Perhaps you need to read that again regards, Shuddha Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Shuddhaa , S of SAP. > > 1. And the World remained Silent has a censor certificate . > > 2. Please correct your statement ....it is not Indian occupied Kashmir , But > Indian Kashmir . Few words here and there makes a difference. > > 3. Walking into Nepal does not have anything to do with Indias economic > power. Had it been the case Burma was a much poorer neighboring country. > > 4. ARKP is a party to Kashmir issue , being the aborgonies of the land where > our history goes back to 5000 years +. > > For , Shudhaaa , a person who jumps at every instenve whenever yasin maliks > name is taken , ARKP is a problem...... > > Is that what is much similar to Stockholm Syndrome ? > > Pawan Durani > > > On 9/17/07, Gargi Sen wrote: > >>Dear Rahul, the R of ARKP, >>I hope your post below is able to rest Khemendra's mind (I am getting so >>very fond of that man) and explain exactly why I clubbed you into the the >>mob. It is simply because you share an inability to imagine. >> >>Just listen carefully to your own arguments >> >> This is my >> response to Vishal and it has my argument as to why >> the nation may resort to censorship in some cases-to >> be specific,why it would censor something that >> promotes self determination in Kashmir. >> >> >>Just for your information - the nation/ state/ nation state/ whatever did >>not censor Jashn-e-azadi. A group of disgruntled Kashmiri Pundits did. >>Now >>since when did this bunch of KPs become the 'nation' whatever that may be? >>And how come YOU choose the side of one KP against the other? After all >>the >>director himself is a KP. >> >>For your information a nation, even this great one, does not 'censor'. >>This >>one makes it mandatory a pre-censorship of films only. The only art form >>requiring pre-censoring is a film (exception Gujarat that requires the >>scripts of plays being performed to be censored.) You can write a book, >>create poetry, paint and publicly display, but you can not do so with >>film. >>Many of us believe that the government¹s policies are discriminatory if >>not >>downright unethical. No one has the right to censor ­ and I am not talking >>about regulations. Now on personal, political and ethical grounds many >>independent filmmakers will not apply for censorship for their film. And >>that is a stated, collectivised political position. And this community >>still >>does it, knowing jolly well the consequences. >>Also, getting a censor certificate does not mean that the film will not >>run >>into controversy, be stopped, or banned. Perzania is the latest in this >>list. Of course there are many stopped by the lunatic fringe. However, >>what >>is often missed by filmmakers themselves also is how the ÂŒcontrolled >>market¹ >>being peddled by the money bags as ÂŒfree market¹ also effectively blocks >>the >>film¹s run. >>And try selling this argument of yours to Ashok Pundit and the ARKP who >>quite successfully screen another film on KPs migration from valley. A >>tear >>jerker called And the World Remained Silent (or something similar.) No >>state >>or no nation has stepped in to stop that one. >>This discussion can go on forever. But only when you have your arguments >>properly constructed. >>AND incidentally, I am a woman. AND I hope you can get over your >>squeamishness about ÂŒladies¹ to engage with me >> >> >> Now,many people think that A united and independent >> Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution to >> this 60 year old dispute. >> >>Right, and I am one of those. AND a woman to boot. >> >> >> This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont >> think that is gonna happen. >> >>Why not Rahul? History provides information to the contrary. You and I >>would >>not be citizens of a so-called free nation if such things were not ÂŒgonna¹ >>happen. And remember my gender. >> >> Nations dont work on such canonical moral >> principles.For getting anywhere near to the solution >> of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip with >> realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit from >> an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir itself.As >> for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN >> reiterates a policy of non interference and >> bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb the >> other party to come to a solution. Nor can any country >> bleed the other to a point of submission by terrorism >> etc. >> >>I agree. But what about the Kashmiri people? The Kashmiris themselves? >>Don¹t >>they have ANY stake in these geo-political stakes? Should they care? >>Should >>the people of India have cared when in 1947 it was inconvenient for the >>INDIAN govt to give up their ÂŒjewel in the crown?¹ Or even in more recent >>history should it have mattered to the people of erstwhile East Pakistan >>how >>inconvenient it was for the government based in west Pakistan that had >>over-ruled a democratically chosen leader who happened to be from East >>Pakistan, imprisoned him and initiated the marshal law in East Pakistan, >>how >>terribly, terribly inconvenient it was for West Pakistan to face an united >>forced, united by language (of a kind at least)? Should they have cared? >>Or >>should the people of Jharkhand, Chhatisgarh or even Uttaranchal (although >>I >>really prefer Uttarakhand) have cared how their insisting on a state of >>their own have made their mother states to face huge revenue loss? >> >> Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India >> a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the >> North East, >> b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and India >> would not be comfortable with that going in a >> different country. >> c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not to >> try to usurp any further territory. >> d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a >> disputed territory and if any party is perceived to go >> soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult time >> to get elected again. >> So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint >> gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it >> may have to do or it may have to tolerate. >> >>Do you have any support to bolster these arguments? Especially the last? >>Many of us even on this list believe Kashmir is occupied by the Indian >>military. And incidentally I am a woman. >> >> I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there is >> the one water treaty,for them to have reservations in >> wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what >> interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those >> Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether >> there is an internal political spin to it. >> >>Now that¹s interesting. The water treaty that India has with Pakistan. >>Have >>you ever wondered why despite 3 wars (and these were wars where armies and >>the airforce bombarded each other and NOT the new definition of war >>wherein >>you pulverise a nation to dust, slap an embargo on it for 11 years, take >>out >>all its military strength, cry ÂŒweapons-of-mass-destruction¹ and begin >>bombing again AGAINST the opinion of the entire world this time. India >>Pakistan at least fought some kind of a skirmish closer in meaning to the >>term ÂŒwar¹ ), have you wondered why despite such military provocations and >>aggression, the water treaty is left sacro-sanct? AND why does you great >>government NOT have even the courtesy of language while writing water >>treaties with Bangladesh? And you can forget looking for anything like a >>treaty with Nepal. After all the economic power of this powerful state >>ensures that you can walk into Nepal even without a visa. >> >> Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region >> with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign >> state,it will also have problems with its non uniform >> demographics. There would always be some sort of >> strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of an >> option would only guarantee the continuation of some >> kind of trouble in the region. >> >>Landlocked. Scant resources. Non-uniform demography. Now that¹s >>interesting >>Rahul. So all nations described by these definitions should immediately >>begin to secede to their neighbour? Right? Open your school geography book >>Rahul and look at the map of the world. And please make a list of all the >>nations that must immediately cease to be as they are landlocked, with >>scant >>resources and with non-uniform demography. And remember you are now >>arguing >>with a woman. >> >> So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost >> impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would >> not allow it to happen,without consideration for >> Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. >> Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in >> the solution of the problem.Most of all the Kashmiris. >> Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense >> expenditure). A solution is a win win option for >> everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and >> pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their >> idealism;because its a matter of life and death for >> many people. >> >>Right, now we talk pragmatism. After dishing out useless, >>non-substantiated >>arguments now you tell me to be pragmatic. But Rahul dear, the word >>Romance >>is equivocally opposed to the word Pragmatic. And worlds get changed by >>romantics, not pragmatics. Don¹t believe me? Read you school books of >>history. >> >> And,above all , all concerned parties should drop this >> holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and >> come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to >> everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their >> stated positions. >> >>Who are the concerned parties? The ARKP? The film Jashn-e-azadi? Who >>exactly Rahul? >> >> By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I >> know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been a >> Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine >> theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion >> would have been the same. >> regards >> Rahul >> >>And that truly is the very unfortunate part of your mind. Despite serious >>shifts in geography, philosophy and the state of mind, your mind is >>fixated, >>ossified, focused, uni-directional. You don¹t know but you must send a >>LONG >>post about position that you can neither defend nor justify. >> >>That¹s why Rahul dear you¹re the R in my list of ARKP. Get? >> >>Now remember I have been reminding you of my gender through out? That is >>just so that you can answer these powerful words from a sender-of-post >>Sveta >>who I know only through her post >> >>³ In a way lists are fairly revelatory of implicit acceptances... & are >>private mail abuses to women list subscribers not a clear sign of how >>recklessly these implicits can be performed without any check or >>restraint, >>and very assured that there will be no consequence to it³ >> >>I do want to believe that that is not so. That there will be consequences. >>On no other space on this world perhaps but for certain on this virtual >>space. So Rahul dear do me a favour. Look up my namesake Gargi spelled >>G-A-R-G-I (or read one of the Sarai Readers) about who she was and how she >>argued. She was finally shut up by the sage Yagyavalka, cornered by her >>arguments, because of her gender. >> >>Now today, with perhaps one hundreth of the intellectual and informational >>base of the original Gargi (BUT with access to toilet cleaners, chinese >>lawyers and the wikipedia) I challenge you Rahul to argue, with reason and >>logic without squeamishness of gender and at least construct something of >>value. Not just opinions and hot air. And if you can¹t argue with me, a >>woman, allow me to remind you of a North-Indian/ western South Asian, >>deeply >>patriarchal insult: wear bangles and sit at home. (I hate this saying. I >>am >>simply reminding you of it.) >> >>Gargi >> >> >> >> >>____________________________________________________________________________ >>________ >> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you >>all the tools to get online. >> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >>_________________________________________ >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>Critiques & Collaborations >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>subscribe in the subject header. >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 17 11:01:04 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:01:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EE1118.4060608@sarai.net> Dear Pawan, Thank you for your appreciation of my concern. Since I do not share your faith, I cannot take that into consideration in my assessment of the Sethusamudran Project. But since I do share your ecological, developmental and financial concerns, I fully agree with you that the Sethusamudran Project is going to be a disaster. Now since you share my ecological, financial and developmental concerns (and whether or not you do share my attitude to questions of faith, on which we can agree to disagree) I do hope you will share in my condemnation of the Nuclear Tests in Pokhran, the military occupation of the Siachen glacier, the Narmada Dam and the 'canalization' plan proposed by the Bharatiya Janata Party as an alternative to the Sethusamduran Project. Because these are and have been all ecological, developmental and financial disasters. You do, don't you? regards Shuddha (not Gargi) Pawan Durani wrote: > Shuddha , > > Thank you for your concern on Sethu Samudram , besides ecological disaster > it is a matter of faith as well. > > Even the developemnt is not going to be of major use, its a financial > disaster. > > Pawan > > > > > On 9/17/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>As an aside, had an offline chat with Pawan when he mentioned that he >>plans to plant a 1000 trees - something so simple yet so important that I >>didn't even remember it. >> >>The basics are simple steps we can take that will make a difference in the >>long run. And yes, I do agree that our shattered environment (including the >>Sethusamudram project) needs a serious rethink as to where the ecology is >>going. >> >>Rgds, Partha >>.................. >> >> On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >>>Dear All, >>> >>>This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total >>>agreement with Pawan Durani. So, I thought I would break my silence. >>>Thank you Pawan for the links that you have sent. >>> >>>I think that the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project is indeed a blueprint >>>for the unfolding of a human tragedy and an ecological disaster. And I >>>think it ranks along with the Narmada Dam Project as a plan that is >>>deeply inimical to the interests and livelihoods of the people who will >>>be affected by it most, namely local fisher folk (for whom the region is >>>an age old natural fishing commons). >>> >>>I see no reason why ancient fishing practices and the delicate natural >>>ecology of the region should have to be disrupted just so that >>>Capitalism (in the form of ships carrying containers) and the Indian >>>Navy's ships can gain a few hours while crossing from the west to the >>>east coast of India. If for all these centures, ships have had to round >>>the southern tip of Sri Lanka to move from the Arabian sea to the Bay of >>>Bengal, and traverse the waters of the Indian Ocean region, I do not see >>> why then the livelihoods of the inhabitants of the region have to be >>> suddenly sacrified for them to be able to move faster.I see absolutely >>>nothing wrong in insisting that the ships take the same time that they >>>have always taken? >>> >>>However, I have also watched worthies from the Bharatiya Janata Party, >>>especially, Shri Murli Manohar Joshi, present their 'alternative' >>>project for the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project over the last few days >>>on television - which is to cut a canal through the southern tip of the >>>Deccan peninsula. And I think that proposal is just as much of a >>>potential human and ecological disaster as the disruption of the >>>Sethusamudram region. So the new found 'greening' of the BJP, needs to >>>be understood for what it is. Yet another recipe for the displacement of >>>people and the violent disruption of the landscape, on the same scale as >>>Sardar Sarovar project and the proposed scheme to link rivers that was >>>the pet project of the esteeemed erstwhile president of the Indian >>>republic. >>> >>>I would like to point readers on the list to consider the tragic >>>histories of Panama (a state, now a narco-republic, carved out in order >>>to dig a canal) and the Suez canal (over which at least one major >>>military conflict - the Suez crisis of 1956 erupted. I have no doubt >>>that The BJP's recently found enthusiasm for cutting a canal through >>>Southern India will no doubt create 'swadeshi' versions of >>>narco-republicanism, and aggressive military posturing a la Panama and >>>Suez. >>> >>>Also, on a parting note, let us not forget the decision by successive >>>governments, controlled by the Congress or led by the BJP, that did not >>>have any qualms about violating the delicate ecology of the Thar desert >>>with Nuclear explostions, or completely destroying the equally delicate >>>Himalayan glacial environment of Siachen in the part of Jammu and >>>Kashmir occupied by India, by stationing troops, heavy artillery and >>>continuing what must be one of the most tragic, bizarre, violent and >>>wasteful military engagements with landscape in the history of the >>>modern world. >>> >>>So, yes let us all demand that the Sethusamudram region be left alone, >>>let us demand that no more nuclear explosions or tests ever take place >>>in the Thar desert or anywhere in the landmass of all of South Asia, or >>>in the Lop Nor plateau in Tibet, and let us demand also a unilateral >>>ceasefire and troop withdrawal from Siachen, and let us demand immediate >>>cessation of the Sardar Saroval Project on the river Narmada and that >>>the river linking project be abandoned. I would be absolutely willing to >>>assent to all these demands, and while doing so, I would also demand >>>that those who took the decisions to conduct Nuclear Tests in Pokhran in >>> >>>India (in 1974 and in 1998) and in the Chagai Hills in Pakistan (in >>>1998) or on the Lop Nor plateau in Tiber offer uconditional apologies to >>>the people of India, Pakistan and Tibet (and to all peoples in Asia) for >>> >>>the serious damage that these tests caused to the ecology of South and >>>Central Asia. >>> >>>I sincerely hope that all of you will agree with me. >>> >>>regards >>> >>>Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Pawan Durani wrote: >>> >>> >>>>http://tamilinfoservice.com/manitham/environment/sscp/article/4.htm >>>> >>>>http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/tamilnadu/050404sethu.htm >>>> >>>>http://www.greensl.net/campaigns003.php >>>> >>>>http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/a-blunder-called-sethusamudram/ >>>> >>>> >>>>Where are all those who had been talking about ecological disaster >>> >>>during >>> >>>>Narmada Dam project ? Why are they silent ? Where are the >>> >>>activists and >>> >>>>the film makers ? >>>> >>>>I do understand their problems and the "compulsions". >>>> >>>>God Bless ! >>>>_________________________________________ >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>Critiques & Collaborations >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>>subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>>_________________________________________ >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>Critiques & Collaborations >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>subscribe in the subject header. >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jbnaudy at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 11:06:43 2007 From: jbnaudy at gmail.com (Jean-Baptiste Naudy) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:36:43 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] "Discussions about Politics and Design", Ze Dos Bois (Lisbon) September, 20-21, 2007. Message-ID: Discussions about Politics and Design Ze Dos Bois, Lisbon, September, 20-21, 2007. Conferences on the occasion of the finissage of Société Réaliste's Transitioners exhibition. Participants: Eric Alliez (Paris), Vicken Cheterian (Geneva), Cosmin Costinas (Vienna), Jose Neves (Lisbon) and Olivier Schefer (Paris). Ze Dos Bois is currently presenting the exhibition Transitioners, a project by the Paris-based artistic cooperative, Societe Realiste. Transitioners is a trend design agency specialized in political transitions. Transposing the principles of prospective design, generally used by "fashion trend agencies", to the field of politics, Societe Realiste questions the revolution (transition?) as a central category for the contemporary western society. Transitioners surveys the mutations of the revolution as a form. How a "democratic transition" can be produced? What is the role of design in the permanent conversion of politics into mythology? How the effect of an event on people can be transformed into a controlled affect? On the occasion of the exhibition's finissage, Ze Dos Bois and Societe Realiste presents a conferences and debates program, entitled "Discussões a propósito de política e design". ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 2007, 7pm. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ i/ INTRODUCTION. By Societe Realiste Société Réaliste will introduce the participants of these discussions and reformulate some key points of the Transitioners project, from its genesis to its main aesthetical and political perspectives. Some topics to be discuss during the two-days conference will be synthetized, from the problematics of an artistic science to an experimental approach of design, from the necessity of understanding the main integration strategies of Late Capitalism politics to some linkage between different chapters of the recent history of political revolutions. ii/ GREY WEATHER AT LA GRANDE JATTE : SEURAT VERSUS DUCHAMP. By Eric Alliez (In French) « The most important scientific mind of the 19th century, more than Cezanne, was Seurat, that died at the age of 32." This specific affinity felt by Duchamp for Seurat will be the center of this presentation. Another important question will be the Seurat's contradictory heritage, especially in the confrontation between Matisse and Duchamp. In Modern art, there is this point that is not related to pictural Modernism but on the contrary, through forces and forms, to an archeology of the contemporary, of which Matisse and Duchamp are precisely the two fundamental paradigms. Eric Alliez is a philosopher, professor at Middlesex University, London, since 2004. Scientific director and editor of the complete works of Gabriel Tarde (Empêcheurs de penser en rond/Le Seuil, Paris) and Gilles Deleuze, Immanence et vie (with Danielle Cohen-Levinas, Françoise Proust, Lucien Vinciguerra, PUF, Paris, 2006), creator and co-editor of the review Multitudes. His most recent books are La Pensée-Matisse (with Jean-Claude Bonne, Le Passage, Paris, 2005) and L'Œil-Cerveau (with Jean-Clet Martin, Vrin, Paris, 2007). iii/ THE COMMUNIST INVENTION OF THE REVOLUTIONARY MILITANT. By Jose Neves The representation of the communist militant is the result of a one century-long creative work. In Portugal, this process has been accentuated in the end of the 30s and has been strengthen by the recognition of PCP, at the beginning of the 40s. This communication strategy has been the occasion of melting various sensibilities that formed the communist idea of the revolution. While analyzing the discurses of communist intellectuals - and more particularly historians' ones - we will see how two main understanding, the vanguard one and the common one, have created a productive tension, now possible to encounter in the writings of authors like Toni Negri and John Holloway. José Neves is an historian. Currently finishing a thesis about Communism and Nationalism in 20th Century Portugal at ISCTE, he has recently coordinated the collective book Da Gaveta para Fora - Ensaios sobre Marxistas (Afrontamento, 2006). iv/ MYTHOLOGY AND INSTRUMENTALIZATIONS OF THE ROMANIAN REVOLUTION. By Cosmin Costinas The autumn of 1989 was the spectacular moment needed by the already unleashed liberal machine to proclaim a grand finale before entering the age of unshattered expansion and disbelief in any possibility of social change. The almost ritualistic and choreographed nature of that autumn was nowhere more striking than in the case of the Romanian revolution. The radical proclamation of the end of a political construction employed both a highly symbolic scenario of "the revolution" haunting the modern European imagery (with the occupation of the public space, where the public space is understood as streets and central squares, the storming of a palace climaxing in a regicide), as well as a scenario of a media-generated reality. The act of the king leaving his palace was doubled by an equally significant moment, that of a contested and confused Ceausescu at the balcony of his palace, failing to grasp the codes of the "live history", exposing himself as the product of a pre-media regime of reality and allowing a media story to take over. But the dozens of hours of tape that constitute the Romanian revolution have also aquired an uncanny status of a founding mythology, random gestures and spontaneous phrases becoming projected as the ultimate references for the Romanian second republic. Cosmin Costinas is a writer and freelance curator, external editor of the reviews Idea Arts + Society e Version, and consultant for visual arts at the Romanian state television. His most recent projects include Textground (Prague, 2004) and Laicitate dupa Complicitate (Bucharest, 2005). He is currently working on a book about Romanian contemporary art of the 21st century (with Mihnea Mircan) and he is part of the editorial team of the Documenta 12 Magazines project in Kassel. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 21, 2007, 7pm. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ v/ FROM SERBIA TO KYGYZSTAN, COLOR REVOLUTIONS AND REBELION IN A NEW CENTURY. By Vicken Cheterian "Color Revolutions" raised a strong hope. They turned out to be a deception. All of them had their specific history, their own biographies. The youth went to protest for different reasons, to reach distinct objectives. What did the youth in Serbia want in 2000? In 2003 Georgia? In 2004 Ukraine and in 2005 Kyrgyzstan? What did "they" promit them? After some years, are these countries more democratic? Were they the beginning or the end of non-violent pro-democratic westernized revolutions? Are the jihadists the revolutionnaries of the 21st century? Is the revolution a solution for the problems of our societies, in the East, in the West? Vicken Cheterian is a journalist, specialized in international politics. Born in Lebanon, he has covered conflicts in the Middle East, then in Caucasus and Central Asia. Currently living in Geneva, he is working for Cimera, a non-for-profit organization, and he is a frequent collaborator of Le Monde Diplomatique, Paris. vi/ ART AND REVOLUTION: ZIGZAGS INTO COLOURS. By Olivier Schefer We'll try to see how and why color seems to be the very expression of the artistic revolution of the modernism. This lecture will endeavour also to reflect on the self-construction of the modernism, which creates its own mythology through colors. Following aspects will be studied : the quest of autonomy, the spiritual dimension of colors, the exhibition as artwork. Olivier Schefer is professor of aesthetic, philosophy and fine art at the University of Paris I Sorbonne. He works on the romantic period and its modern influences. Latest pulications : Anish Kapoor catalog's (Svayambh, éditions Fage, Paris, 2007), Les corps du retour (Zombies), in Fresh Theorie (éd. Léo Scheer, Paris, 2006), Résonances du romantisme (éd. La Lettre volée, Bruxelles, 2005). vii/ SUMMING UP: ATTEMPT OF A FRAGMENTARY HAGIOGRAPHY. By Societe Realiste To conclude the two-days public discussion, Societe Realiste will try to summarize some of the main points debated between the participants, by linking modernist stakes of the colour (Alliez, Schefer), examples of political transitions (Cheterian, Costinas, Neves) and the core problematics of the Transitioners project. Then, Societe Realiste will open the conversation on a critical hagiography of some stakes of the Revolution Mythology by using several examples such as the ones of Saint Thomas More or Olinde Rodrigues. Societe Realiste is a Paris-based artistic cooperative created by Ferenc Grof and Jean-Baptiste Naudy, that manages the development of several research and economical structures such as a laboratory for the study of urban signs (IGM), an immigration agency (EU Green Card Lottery), a trend design bureau specialized in political transitions (Transitioners), an administration dedicated to the politics of the space (Ministere de l'Architecture), a legislative consulting firm, expert in competitive and sustainable lawmaking (Cabinet Societe Realiste Conseil), a counter-biennial (Manifesta 6.1), a company designing marketing models for the contemporary art field (PONZI'S), or a collective finance fund for individual projects (OTC). ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ More info: www.zedosbois.org / zdb at zedosbois.org With the support of Instituto Franco-Português; Chama Vermelha; Instituto das Artes. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From sanjay.maharishi at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 11:39:53 2007 From: sanjay.maharishi at gmail.com (Delhi Cycle) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:39:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ragpicking or recycling: from squattercity In-Reply-To: <28406C48-1478-4BCD-8823-C4D912E40D83@xs4all.nl> References: <28406C48-1478-4BCD-8823-C4D912E40D83@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <46EE1A31.6030903@gmail.com> here is a blog of an event that i was part of. the event tried to find ways to deal with waste in our lives. http://kabaadsejugaad.blogspot.com/ regards sanjay From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 11:47:50 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> Message-ID: <108412.72843.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Suddha, If you are a true peace keeper, then you would have raised questions against china when they 1) conducted Nucler tests 2) deceived late Nehru under the Panchasheel 3)Occupied Tibet 4)Backing Pakistan to do whatever nonsense if not 5) Communists ruling West Bengal under democracy umberilla Since 4th B.C, India has been attacked,ransacked and deceived by Invaders. The same way Communists can rule India under democracy. We have no objection. As per your mail I understood that there should not be any government that can rule India and empower it. Regards, Dhatri. Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: Dear All, This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total agreement with Pawan Durani. So, I thought I would break my silence. Thank you Pawan for the links that you have sent. I think that the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project is indeed a blueprint for the unfolding of a human tragedy and an ecological disaster. And I think it ranks along with the Narmada Dam Project as a plan that is deeply inimical to the interests and livelihoods of the people who will be affected by it most, namely local fisher folk (for whom the region is an age old natural fishing commons). I see no reason why ancient fishing practices and the delicate natural ecology of the region should have to be disrupted just so that Capitalism (in the form of ships carrying containers) and the Indian Navy's ships can gain a few hours while crossing from the west to the east coast of India. If for all these centures, ships have had to round the southern tip of Sri Lanka to move from the Arabian sea to the Bay of Bengal, and traverse the waters of the Indian Ocean region, I do not see why then the livelihoods of the inhabitants of the region have to be suddenly sacrified for them to be able to move faster.I see absolutely nothing wrong in insisting that the ships take the same time that they have always taken? However, I have also watched worthies from the Bharatiya Janata Party, especially, Shri Murli Manohar Joshi, present their 'alternative' project for the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project over the last few days on television - which is to cut a canal through the southern tip of the Deccan peninsula. And I think that proposal is just as much of a potential human and ecological disaster as the disruption of the Sethusamudram region. So the new found 'greening' of the BJP, needs to be understood for what it is. Yet another recipe for the displacement of people and the violent disruption of the landscape, on the same scale as Sardar Sarovar project and the proposed scheme to link rivers that was the pet project of the esteeemed erstwhile president of the Indian republic. I would like to point readers on the list to consider the tragic histories of Panama (a state, now a narco-republic, carved out in order to dig a canal) and the Suez canal (over which at least one major military conflict - the Suez crisis of 1956 erupted. I have no doubt that The BJP's recently found enthusiasm for cutting a canal through Southern India will no doubt create 'swadeshi' versions of narco-republicanism, and aggressive military posturing a la Panama and Suez. Also, on a parting note, let us not forget the decision by successive governments, controlled by the Congress or led by the BJP, that did not have any qualms about violating the delicate ecology of the Thar desert with Nuclear explostions, or completely destroying the equally delicate Himalayan glacial environment of Siachen in the part of Jammu and Kashmir occupied by India, by stationing troops, heavy artillery and continuing what must be one of the most tragic, bizarre, violent and wasteful military engagements with landscape in the history of the modern world. So, yes let us all demand that the Sethusamudram region be left alone, let us demand that no more nuclear explosions or tests ever take place in the Thar desert or anywhere in the landmass of all of South Asia, or in the Lop Nor plateau in Tibet, and let us demand also a unilateral ceasefire and troop withdrawal from Siachen, and let us demand immediate cessation of the Sardar Saroval Project on the river Narmada and that the river linking project be abandoned. I would be absolutely willing to assent to all these demands, and while doing so, I would also demand that those who took the decisions to conduct Nuclear Tests in Pokhran in India (in 1974 and in 1998) and in the Chagai Hills in Pakistan (in 1998) or on the Lop Nor plateau in Tiber offer uconditional apologies to the people of India, Pakistan and Tibet (and to all peoples in Asia) for the serious damage that these tests caused to the ecology of South and Central Asia. I sincerely hope that all of you will agree with me. regards Shuddha Pawan Durani wrote: > http://tamilinfoservice.com/manitham/environment/sscp/article/4.htm > > http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/tamilnadu/050404sethu.htm > > http://www.greensl.net/campaigns003.php > > http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/a-blunder-called-sethusamudram/ > > > Where are all those who had been talking about ecological disaster during > Narmada Dam project ? Why are they silent ? Where are the activists and > the film makers ? > > I do understand their problems and the "compulsions". > > God Bless ! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. From pkray11 at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 11:57:17 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:57:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the screening of Taurus Message-ID: <98f331e00709162327j65a0200epad14d6fb3e9a14fc@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, I don't want to get into a debate on the definition of "crime". So I can't say if being a fan of Narendra Modi is a crime. But I am sure that it is a deep mental and psychological problem and must be cured at earliest. If you are not aware about the man, I request you to watch "Final Solution", a film by Rakesh Sharma. Regards, Prakash From padmalatha.ravi at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 12:00:25 2007 From: padmalatha.ravi at gmail.com (Padmalatha) Date: 16 Sep 2007 23:30:25 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Do we like the same books? Message-ID: <20070917063052.1D4212B286BF@mail.sarai.net> I just joined Shelfari to connect with other book lovers. Come see the books I love and see if we have any in common. Then pick my next book so I can keep on reading. Click below to join my group of friends on Shelfari! http://www.shelfari.com/Register.aspx?ActivityId=14481174&InvitationCode=c7a048eb-4d6e-496c-855e-0a72f9292d51 Padmalatha Shelfari is a free site that lets you share book ratings and reviews with friends and meet people who have similar tastes in books. It also lets you build an online bookshelf, join book clubs, and get good book recommendations from friends. You should check it out. -------- You have received this email because Padmalatha (padmalatha.ravi at gmail.com) directly invited you to join his/her community on Shelfari. It is against Shelfari's policies to invite people who you don't know directly. Follow this link (http://www.shelfari.com/actions/emailoptout.aspx?email=reader-list at sarai.net&activityid=14481174) to prevent future invitations to this address. If you believe you do not know this person, you may view (http://www.shelfari.com/Padmalatha) his/her Shelfari page or report him/her in our feedback (http://www.shelfari.com/Feedback.aspx) section. Shelfari, 616 1st Ave #300, Seattle, WA 98104 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 12:21:12 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:21:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How CPM blocked the screening of Taurus In-Reply-To: <98f331e00709162327j65a0200epad14d6fb3e9a14fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00709162327j65a0200epad14d6fb3e9a14fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709162351h24f430d4h2ad07f2a801fc96e@mail.gmail.com> Dear mr Prakash , I would try to watch this movie if i get a copy of it. Another movie which I would recommend to fellow readers is the "Bangla Crescent" by Mr Mayank Jain. It's an eye opener. Pawan Durani On 9/17/07, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > I don't want to get into a debate on the definition of "crime". So I can't > say if being a fan of Narendra Modi is a crime. But I am sure that it is a > deep mental and psychological problem and must be cured at earliest. If > you > are not aware about the man, I request you to watch "Final Solution", a > film > by Rakesh Sharma. > > Regards, > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From virtuallyme at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 12:27:12 2007 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:27:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an Message-ID: <79e82f610709162357m7fbffcf2x911fc8f1db9d3ba6@mail.gmail.com> 'matter of faith' - faith in the hope that better sense will prevail?.....or faith as in the loss of it in human behaviour?.......or faith in the fact that a natural ecological formation being presented as a bridge is a potential political issue, loaded enough to shift opinion, with votes being the catalyst along with some other ingredients like hindutva (soft and otherwise), shaky coalition, mid term elections etc....?? rohan 1. Re: Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an > ecological disaster (Pawan Durani) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:41:39 +0530 > From: "Pawan Durani" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - > Blueprint for an ecological disaster > To: "Partha Dasgupta" , shuddha at sarai.net > Cc: readerlist > Message-ID: > <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Shuddha , > > Thank you for your concern on Sethu Samudram , besides ecological disaster > it is a matter of faith as well. > > Even the developemnt is not going to be of major use, its a financial > disaster. > > Pawan > From virtuallyme at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 12:45:32 2007 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:45:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709170005g367fc747p98fad12dd3248143@mail.gmail.com> References: <79e82f610709162357m7fbffcf2x911fc8f1db9d3ba6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709170005g367fc747p98fad12dd3248143@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <79e82f610709170015h1b8be46du6a52cae598c18efd@mail.gmail.com> hi pawan, the intention of my mail was to comment on the issue (sethusamudram) itself and how it is playing out and not on your political skills or objectives. just picked up on the word faith, as it is being bandied about too easily as a tool to make political gains from what to me is a very personal notion. rgds, rohan On 9/17/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > I do not read much into each words nor do I take out meanings out of > simpler words. I am sure now you may understand what I meant by "faith:. > > BTW , I am not a politician , nor do I intend to become one. > > Pawan > > > On 9/17/07, Rohan DSouza < virtuallyme at gmail.com> wrote: > > > 'matter of faith' - faith in the hope that better sense will > > prevail?.....or > > faith as in the loss of it in human behaviour?.......or faith in the > > fact > > that a natural ecological formation being presented as a bridge is a > > potential political issue, loaded enough to shift opinion, with votes > > being > > the catalyst along with some other ingredients like hindutva (soft and > > otherwise), shaky coalition, mid term elections etc....?? > > > > rohan > > > > 1. Re: Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an > > > ecological disaster (Pawan Durani) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:41:39 +0530 > > > From: "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - > > > Blueprint for an ecological disaster > > > To: "Partha Dasgupta" , shuddha at sarai.net > > > Cc: readerlist > > > Message-ID: > > > < 6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907 at mail.gmail.com > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > > > Shuddha , > > > > > > Thank you for your concern on Sethu Samudram , besides ecological > > disaster > > > it is a matter of faith as well. > > > > > > Even the developemnt is not going to be of major use, its a financial > > > disaster. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From hpp at vsnl.com Mon Sep 17 12:50:04 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (hpp at vsnl.com) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:20:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Give us grain, not nuclear nonsense" Message-ID: Bullets fly as villagers tell comrades: Give us grain, not nuclear nonsense The Telegraph, Calcutta, 17 September 2007 By OUR CORRESPONDENT Durgapur, Sept. 16: Villagers faced with a food shortage today stormed a CPM nuclear-deal protest and beat up leaders, saying they wanted rice and not mumbo-jumbo on a subject they didn't understand. A mob of about 1,000 from the Bankura village - a CPM stronghold - then fought police with bombs and stones, prompting firing by the force that injured a schoolboy of 16 and a 23-year-old man. The violence, coming at a time snap polls look a possibility, may confirm the Bengal CPM's deepest fears. The state unit, which has to fight elections, favours caution while taking a decision on toppling the UPA government over the nuclear deal in contrast to the party's central leaders, who have never contested polls. A dozen villagers from Radhamohanpur, 250km from Calcutta, had come to the "anti-imperialism" meeting around 10am to complain to the CPM leaders against hoarding by ration-shop owners. They erupted when panchayat chief Pabitra Mondal - who was on the dais trying to convince a crowd of 200 daily wagers about the dangers of the 123 Agreement - tried to shoo them away. One man jumped on the dais, snatched the microphone and began abusing the assembled CPM leaders. "We'll teach you a lesson. You can't give us rice and wheat, instead you talk mumbo-jumbo. We don't understand the nuclear deal, give us food," he screamed. "Maar shalader maar (beat them up)." The words will worry state CPM secretary Biman Bose, who has admitted that the anti-nuclear deal line lacks the force of bread-and-butter issues and will be difficult to sell to an electorate. This afternoon, he said he hadn't heard about the incident but would find out what happened. The news, however, spread fast across Bankura and violent protests against ration dealers were reported from elsewhere in the district, too. In Radhamohanpur, news of the clash at the meeting drew men and women out of their homes, armed with sticks, knives, burning torches and even brooms. The dais, party banners and festoons were soon in flames. "I had never seen a mob so angry. They dragged me from the dais and beat me. I ran to the panchayat office but they dragged me and four others out and beat us," Mondal said. The police were driven out as soon as they arrived. A bigger team, together with the Rapid Action Force, later caned the mob and rescued the CPM leaders. The police said the villagers regrouped and hurled bombs and stones, injuring an officer and four others. "We were forced to fire three rounds," said Bishnupur subdivisional police officer Dyutiman Bhattacharjee. The villagers claimed the police fired at least 20 rounds. A bullet pierced the left hand of Sudhamoy Kandal and entered his stomach. Another hit schoolboy Tapas Pal. Nine other villagers, injured in the baton-charge, are in hospital. Ten have been held. Arjun Mondal, 30, a farmer, said: "We didn't get rice or wheat from the ration shops for nearly a year. The dealers sell in the black market with CPM backing." Although Sonamukhi, the area in which Radhamohanpur falls, is a known CPM stronghold, local party officials blamed the Trinamul Congress, BJP and Maoists for the violence. Trinamul leaders denied the charge. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1070917/asp/frontpage/story_8326080.asp From pkray11 at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 12:52:18 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:52:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Open letter to MPs from CPI(M) Message-ID: <98f331e00709170022uf342821t13c68a284854f3a3@mail.gmail.com> *AN OPEN LETTER TO MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT** * *from Central Committee, CPI(M) * * September 8, 2007 * *Dear Member of Parliament,** * *The Indo-U.S. bilateral agreement on nuclear cooperation has raised a number of issues which are of vital importance to the nation. Through this open letter we wish to place before you the considered views of the Communist Party of India (Marxist).** * *Ever since the Joint Statement issued in July 2005 during the Prime Minister's visit to Washington in which the civilian nuclear cooperation agreement was announced, there has been a debate in the country about the merits of such an agreement. Political parties, nuclear scientists, the media and concerned citizens have been expressing their views. Parliament has also discussed the agreement at various stages. However, the current debate is crucial as the bilateral text has been finalised and the Government is planning to take the next steps to operationalise the agreement. ** * *It is our contention that the nuclear cooperation agreement should not be seen in isolation from the overall context of India-US strategic relations, its impact on our foreign policy and our strategic autonomy. Further, the nuclear cooperation agreement must be seen in the context of our energy security, access to technology and the development of the three stage nuclear programme. * *The bilateral "123" agreement has also to be seen also in the light of the assurances given by the Prime Minister in his statement to Parliament on 17 August 2007. * *The Left parties have asked the Government not to proceed with the next steps to be taken to operationalise the agreement. * *Implications of the Hyde Act * *Members of Parliament will recall that in August 2006, there was a debate on the draft law being discussed by the US Senate and the House of Representatives to amend the US Atomic Energy Act of 1954 to give exemption for the proposed nuclear cooperation agreement with India. The two draft legislations before the House of Representatives and the Senate contain many provisions which were detrimental to India's interests. * *The Prime Minister had given certain categorical assurances on the points raised regarding this draft legislation. The nine points which the Left parties had raised were covered by the Prime Minister's statement. However, subsequent to that, the Hyde Act (Henry J. Hyde United States-India Peaceful Atomic Energy Cooperation Act" was adopted by the US Congress in December 2006. * *Many of the provisions of the Hyde Act go contrary to the assurances given by the Prime Minister in August 2006. What are these? * *· Under the terms set out by the Hyde Act, it is clear that the Indo-US nuclear cooperation would not cover the entire nuclear fuel cycle. It denies cooperation or access in any form whatsoever to fuel enrichment, reprocessing and heavy water production technologies. * *· The denial extends to transfer of dual use technology and covers items which could be used in fuel enrichment, reprocessing or heavy water production facilities. Thus, dual use restrictions remain on technology transfers to India. Hyde Act section 102 (13) states, "The US should not seek to facilitate or encourage the continuation of nuclear exports to India by any other party if such exports are terminated under US law". * *· Section 103 (a)(6) of the Hyde Act says US policy shall be "Seek to prevent the transfer to a country (India, in this case) nuclear equipment, materials or technology from other participating governments in the NSG or from any other source if nuclear transfers to that country (India, in this case) are suspended or terminated pursuant to this title (Hyde Act), the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 or any other US law". * *The Act concerns itself with areas outside nuclear cooperation and contains objectionable clauses to get India to accept the strategic goals of the United States. These issues are: * *· Annual certification and reporting to the US Congress by the President on a variety of foreign policy issues such as India's foreign policy being "congruent to that of the United States" and specifically India joining US efforts to isolate and put sanctions against Iran [Section 104g(2) E(i)] * *· Indian participation and formal declaration of support for the US' highly controversial Proliferation Security Initiative including the illegal policy of interdiction of vessels in international waters [Section 104g(2) K] * *· India conforming to various bilateral/multilateral agreements to which India is not currently a signatory such as the US' Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), the Australia Group etc [Section 104c E,F,G] * *It is on the basis of the Hyde Act that the United States has negotiated the bilateral "123" agreement with India. Some of the harmful provisions of the Hyde Act are reflected in the bilateral agreement. * *· The bilateral agreement, while superficially using the original wording of the joint statement of 2005, "full civilian nuclear cooperation" actually denies cooperation or access in any form whatsoever to fuel enrichment, reprocessing and heavy water production technologies. The statement of intent in the agreement that a suitable amendment to enable this access may be considered in the future has little or no operative value. * *· Further, this denial (made explicit in Art 5.2 of the agreement) also extends to transfers of dual-use items that could be used in enrichment, reprocessing or heavy water production facilities, again a stipulation of the Hyde Act. Under these terms, a wide range of sanctions on a host of technologies would continue, falling well short of "full civilian nuclear co-operation". * *· It is also important to recognise that the fast breeder reactors under this agreement would be treated as a part of the fuel cycle and any technology required for this would also come under the dual use technology sanctions. This would be true even if future fast breeder reactors were put in the civilian sector and under safeguards. Thus, India's attempt to build a three-phase, self-reliant nuclear power program powered ultimately by thorium would have to be developed under conditions of isolation and existing technology sanctions. * *· Another key assurance that had been given by the Prime Minister was that India would accept safeguards in perpetuity only in exchange for the guarantee of uninterrupted fuel supply. While the acceptance on India's part of safeguards in perpetuity has been spelt out, the linkage of such safeguards with fuel supply in perpetuity remains unclear. * *The assurance that the United States would enable India to build a strategic fuel reserve to guard against disruption of supplies for a duration covering the lifetime of the nuclear reactors in operation appears to have been accepted in the agreement. However, whether the fuel supply will continue even after cessation or termination of the agreement depends solely on the US Congress. The Hyde Act explicitly states that the US will work with other Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) countries to stop all fuel and other supplies to India if the agreement is terminated under US laws. Since this agreement explicitly incorporates domestic laws, it appears that fuel supply from the US will not only cease in case the US decides to terminate the Agreement but they are also required under the Hyde Act to work with NSG to bar all future supplies. The clause 5.6 on disruption of supplies therefore seems to be limited to "market failures" and not to cover a disruption that takes place under the clauses of the Hyde Act. In such an eventuality, the US will have to pay compensation to India but all future fuel supplies would stop. Therefore, the 123 agreement represents the acceptance of IAEA safeguards in perpetuity for uncertain fuel supplies and continuing nuclear isolation with respect to a substantial amount of technological know-how. * * **The Hyde Act and Supremacy of National Law * *The government has asserted that the Hyde Act is not binding on India. The relevant issue is that it is binding on the United States and this has been repeatedly stressed by US spokespersons. * *Article 2 (1) of the 123 Agreement states, "The parties shall cooperate in the use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes in accordance with the provisions of this agreement. Each party shall implement this agreement in accordance with its respective applicable treaties, national laws,regulations, and license requirements concerning the use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes". * *If the argument is that the reference to national laws is simply the case of binding towards the law, that will have a bearing on the conduct of different transactions under the 123 agreement, then what do we make of the reference to national laws in other places in the 123 agreement? * *Thus, for instance, Article 5 (6) (a) in part states that "As part of its implementation of the July 18, 2005, joint statement the United States is committed to seeking agreement from the US Congress to amend its domestic laws…to create the necessary conditions for India to obtain full access to the international fuel market…..". Article 5(6) (b) (i) states that "The United States is willing to incorporate assurances regarding fuel supply in the bilateral US-India agreement on peaceful uses of nuclear energy under Section 123 of the US Atomic Energy Act, which would be submitted to the US Congress". These clauses show that the need for conformity with "national laws" is not superfluous. If there is no direct reference to the Hyde Act in the 123 agreement, it is simply because and this is worth reiterating that the Hyde Act is the `Act to exempt from certain requirements of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 a proposed nuclear agreement for cooperation with India. * *Nuclear Power and Energy Security * *It is said that the Indo-US nuclear deal is central to our future electricity and energy requirements. At present, nuclear power generation capacity in India stands at 4,120 MW which is a little less than 3 per cent of our installed capacity of all power plants. One reason has been the nuclear isolation imposed on us resulted in the slow development of our civilian nuclear energy programme. However our scientists overcoming many hurdles did very well in indigenising the Pressurised Water Reactors, and then developing it further to 540 MW. The next stage is the fast breeder reactors, in which the Indian scientists are leading the world. The planned three stage nuclear programme would depend largely on technologies based on fast breeder reactors, and in the future, thorium as fuel. This programme requires far less uranium and lower dependence. Instead, the imported reactor route would focus much more on Light Water Reactors, which require much more uranium and are more expensive. Thus even the technology being offered will not necessarily be the best choice for India. Significantly, the mainstay of our nuclear power program – the fast breeder reactors – will still be under technology sanctions, as they would be considered a part of the fuel cycle. * *The other reason is the techno-economics of nuclear power and its relatively high cost. Nuclear power plants are about 50% per cent more expensive, even when using domestic technology and equipment. If imported reactors for nuclear power are considered, the situation becomes worse: it will cost about three times as much to set up nuclear plants with imported reactors than coal based ones. It will also cost twice as much per unit – Rs. 5.10-5.50 as against Rs. 2.50 from coal fired plants. * *According to the Planning Commission's study, the most optimistic scenario of nuclear power is 15,000 MW by 2015 and 29,000 MW by 2021. These targets includes 8,000 MW of imported reactors. Even then, nuclear energy will only add up to about 7 per cent of our total installed capacity. * *Going ahead with such an ambitious power programme dependant on imports will come at a high cost and will dry up investments in other sectors. Interestingly enough, nuclear power is not the energy of choice for most advanced countries. The US itself has commissioned its last reactor in 1996! Members of Parliament may recall the fiasco of Enron and its Dabhol power plants. * *Implications for Foreign Policy and Strategic Autonomy * *The United States does not see the nuclear cooperation agreement as a stand-alone. It is part of American design to try in India a wide ranging strategic alliance which will adversely affect the pursuit of an independent foreign policy and our strategic autonomy. The facts speak for themselves. * *· Two weeks prior to the joint statement which announced the Indo-US nuclear cooperation agreement, India signed a ten-year Defence Framework Agreement with the United States in June 2005. This is being cited by the Bush administration as India's commitment to cooperate with the United States furthering its strategic interests in Asia. * *· Two months after the nuclear cooperation agreement was announced in September 2005, India voted against Iran in the International Atomic Energy Agency, contrary to its stance earlier that Iran, as an NPT signatory, has every right to develop its nuclear technology for civilian purposes. * *· This was followed by a second vote against Iran in February on the eve of President Bush's visit to India. * *· Nicholas Burns, US Under Secretary of State, in his "On record briefing" after the finalisation of the 123 agreement said on July 27: "And I think now that we have consummated the civil nuclear trade between us, if we look down the road in the future, we're going to see far greater defence cooperation between the United State and India: training; exercises; we hope, defence sales of American military technology to the Indian armed forces." The United States is exercising tremendous pressure on India to buy a whole range of weaponry including the 126 fighter planes, radar, helicopters, artillery etc. worth multi-billion dollars. * *Is the nuclear cooperation agreement going to bind India with the United States in a relationship which goes contrary to our cherished goals of national sovereignty and independent foreign policy and an economic development based on the priorities of our people? * *The objections and the apprehensions raised by the Left parties and other parties, organisations and concerned scientists and citizens need to be examined before proceeding further. All we are asking the government to do is not to rush through with the next steps which are necessary to operationalise the deal. * *We hope that you, as a Member of Parliament, which is the sovereign representative institution of the Indian people, will seriously consider these issues on this vital matter affecting our country's future. * *CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF INDIA (MARXIST) * From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 12:54:54 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 00:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Quieting the Monkey Mind In-Reply-To: <32144e990709162039j12eb7641q46f7821c156fd7d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <588994.11011.qm@web45505.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Partha, List will answer you! Mean time What exactly you wish me to do? Whatever I write here is some action plans/some future plans if acceptable and feasible. Some are cheeky and some serious. Dhatri is a pen name. A pen is always powerful than any gun. As I stated I could not talk about your family matters and so as SARAI. If you planned so nicely and fielded them to me, either case you need to write a proper reply to my earlier post. But you failed to do so. Simply escaped to answer that mail at all and write a post to "TAPAS RAY". As some body claimed "Upper castes did wrong", then 1)you people decide and let the upper caste know. What is dharma and what is Adharma? So that Upper caste follow totally. and 2)Upper caste only enjoy whatever as per your claim? But why so many Upper caste people are unable to live normal life in India,as you were operating imac at 90s and living either in own or ancestral home with or without parents? 3)If Upper castes only enjoying then Everything should be clean in India,like your "White" shirt,"White" BMW/Honda city/Benz car,"White" bungalow,"White" marbled nice partitioned Office, or even like your "White" colored job and money as it was pre freedom and up-to some level post Independence. Is it like that now? Why Let me bring a point to your notice, With my comments at least you did some groundwork/homework before writing to SARAI. This is my achievement obviously you must accept it to self if not to SARAI for which everybody is a member. So many question to you with a nice good predicate logic, I hope this time you will answer them all without confusion and show a path to me and to the problems that India has been facing, and to SARAI as well? Then SARAI will be closed/shutdown as all problem are resolved because of your directions. Before answer this I suggest you to do a 5 min prayer either at temple or at church. Don't ask me Protestant Church/Catholic Church? Don't say I don't do because i am not concerned or worried ? You are not concerned/worried about yourself / child because you worry by visualizing the future( Insecurity). Hence I tell you to sit at your home/office just do a prayer that's enough. You do excuse me, in anyway I hurt you. Regards, Dhatri. Partha Dasgupta wrote: Hi Dhatri, Just so that I'm clear in my mind, some questions 1. Does your post signify that we should change the caste based hierarchy or that we should not? 2. I certainly agree that crying over 'spilt milk' won't help. However, if you have an old wound that is troubling you, ignoring it is counter productive. At the end of the day, everything boils down to the issue that if it is a healing scab, then let it be - however, if it is a fracture or something more serious, then it needs medical attention. 3. Besides monkeys, jihad and changing street names, what was the point of this post. Rgds, Partha ................. On 9/16/07, we wi wrote: "The monkey mind jumps from thought to thought like a monkey jumps from tree to tree. Rather than existing in the present moment, the monkey mind focuses on one thought after another, and these thoughts distract us from exisiting in the present, which is one of the goals of yoga. Sitting in meditation is a good way to see the monkey mind in its natural habitat. Just sitting still and clearing the mind is so challenging. You observe one thought popping up, and another, and another. This is inevitable, especially when you are getting started. The trick is to learn to observe the thoughts without engaging in them. An analogy I like is to see the mind as the sky and the thoughts like clouds passing through. Whether you are meditating or practicing asanas, returning your attention again and again to the breath will always help you detach from the thoughts and return to the present moment. Each inhale and exhale exists only in the present. When you are doing asanas, remind yourself to use Ocean Breathing (Ujjayi) each time you catch yourself thinking. " As the monkey handled in better way in the above, so as the perpetrators and their actions. Atricities in the name of jihad will never be treated as simple childish moves and so as the shouters. Caste based system is there in India, like wise Racism in the rest of the world. Fighting for them is no way usefull except to turn the things perpetrators favour to make things more worsen. Start thinking to build unique nation INDIA and participate constructively in its development for the sake of all Indians. Changing place names,killing people,wiping out sanskrit universities, lamenting monuments wont help in any way. --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 13:04:15 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 00:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <32144e990709162047y2b2d5f5dlcb16d469f0a9c63f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <965692.32077.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I copied and pasted from several sites, wikepidia and Google are just a few. Once must have terminology to do so. Any way I would like to give an assignment 1) LIPTA 2) MATRA 3) ANIMESHI You do whatever/wherever search and just let me know the meaning for those 3 words. YOU ARE FREE TO TAKE WORLDWIDE HELP. GERMANS/RUSSIANS DOING RESEARCH ON SANSKRIT and so as USA. Dont be under illusion that whoever all with sanskrit are upper castes and brahmins. Partha Dasgupta wrote: Dear Dhatri, I do wish you'd read the information I referred to about the origin of zero - it is NOT from India. We had a lot to do with decimals and the point system but we did not 'invent' the zero. And you can check that on wikepidia that you so often copy-paste from. Rgds, Partha On 9/16/07, we wi wrote: This idea is not for creating money, but the main theme is to claim IPR/PATENTS for 0 UNDER GATT/WTO agreements to control the betrayals. Any way people and countries need not worry that India may monopolise 0. Aryabhatta defined the mathematics means there should have lecturers at NALANDA University to mentor him, and so as material available to produce the accurate thesis and so as the contemporaries. "ARYABHATTIYAM" is just a book available and might be many more books kept under safe hands of people in India like RAJATARANGINI. The debate and search should go on until we come to an agreement about what are rules we frame and produce for patenting and IPR at WTO approval. Vishal Rawlley wrote: Dhatri-ji said: " --On 0, ... I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members aware that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva pact. Under this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and applicable to India? Let me explain more scientifically. Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to use 0 for general purposes. It depends again." I say: Why no response by any "intellectual" on this question of "0" importance??? But Dhatri saahab, if we patent "0" and charge for its usage, won't people give us a "0" amount in return?? They will say:"scientifically" speaking, we have only zero to offer in return of a zero! These Indians, I tell you, they are smart but they do not know how to profit from their smartness, we shall therefore remain poor only, alas. Hai Rama. Now if we had invented I, II, III, V, X, XX, XXX, L, M etc. as the smart Romans did, then we should most defenitely have patented all those and charged IIIVXXXLM.... amounts for each single use and then we would have been a super power already and Akhand Bharat could have been a reality!!! Now I hope no Romans read this and use this idea against us. Then, for example, each student going to standard IV might have to pay IV Euros to them. That will surely ruin our education system. No? Then only the children in 'chauthi kaksha' (fourth grade) from hindi medium schools would be able to afford education, as they never even used the IV notation! Maybe, that will turn out to be a good thing after all! Hindi is really suffering in this country and so are all the regional languages. What say? Jai Hind!!! -Vishal On 9/12/07, we wi wrote: Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from Gujarat . If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, Dhatri == Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother Earth. If you have patience to look at these terms just go through the entire link or just fire a find (Cntl+F) and type these terms over there. http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh parishaths, Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. India HINDU comes first and whatever comes is later. As a Citizen of India, Valid Passport holder, It's my Constitutional right to vote as per my choice and live. Those all who never completed schooling and aware of India Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices to enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. Focusing on the topic now, What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing converse logic and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. >If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in the >same month as India, so perhaps they might reply by dispatching some >of them into India if India goes for hot chases, surgical strikes, >masala dosas, bhel pooris etc. YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like India). Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical Induction,on Junaid statement "Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not move out of their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how India can execute it later. --Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham TRANSLATION Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata, and a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! OR Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend myself. So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple understanding is the 9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more remaining to come. The followers of Buddhism now misunderstood it. --And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to the world or a bunch of people like you. What to do if people/countries like you are betraying then bullying is the last sort of option. I don't know how many of the readers aware of this but happy to quote from the first Para of the post --Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business --On 0, Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and joviality (professor student) and your will in favor/against PATENTING and IPR is nothing to do with the practicalities. You may say that countries/you can use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN WAY. No problem you/countries can write whatever the way they wish to use. I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the members aware that except a few all countries signed WTO Free trade Geneva pact. Under this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. How is this useful and applicable to India? Let me explain more scientifically. Hitech world use computers day-to-day life everywhere. Computers operate on "bit". A bit is nothing but a binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get Patenting and IPR over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact should take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or whatever COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, India may/may not uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind enough to allow countries to use 0 for general purposes. It depends again. Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear dispatch, for moving them people need INDIA permission. We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and need a motivated, will powered political system to execute this. This is feasible 99%. Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. --On points 1,2,3 You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and Sadhus Shri Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). Because they are all sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You will never compare them with Aurangazeb. For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its boarders from Alexander to British 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka 3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana For your better understanding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg -- On points 4,5 Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your writing are in genuine, I request you to please 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne -- On points 6,7,8 Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna daughter is dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it till her teenage (before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. |This is the fact and for your kind information. I pity for Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah sister who migrated to Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR is an Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from Pakistan and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid or like personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to vacate peaks occupied and offered. Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive India is ready welcome the kid. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 13:40:41 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <498207.35955.qm@web45503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Nice Reply. Regards, Dhatri. radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: Dear all, it is common sense that tell us that as a child is born, mother is truth, father is faith, as the child grows, it gets all the trappings of faith, when child is born it does not get faith, it is told by its mother, that some male is his / her father, it is faith. So also in society, where knowledge ends, faith commences. Gita for me is the way of life far above the religious scriptures, as it shows the way of life, secrets of knowledge where we get answers to questions that arise in our intellect about all that is material, intellectual and spiritual. It does not distinguish the humans on "caste' as we see the castes today, it talks of work or vocation of an individual in society and his duties to society and exhorts him to do his work in society and serve the society without waiting for the fruits of his good work, submit all the actions to the supreme soul, so that his soul identifies itself with supreme soul that is GOD, called by any name, Shiva, Ram, Christ or Allah. As the names are only by choice of the faithful to their percieved GOD, who is one for all humanity, living beings in form or in Sakara roop, or in Nirvikara swaroop a super soul of all the souls, all actions have reactions, some immediate, some menifest, some delayed reactions to every action in society. The day, all humans understand their role in society to live life with compassion and affection to all in society, be responsible and responsive to others in society and identify their interest with that of society, rise above greed and selfish interests, all in society will have better life, as ills in society will lose out to good in society. Good of the individuals in society is GOD to all in society. ----- Original Message ----- From: we wi Date: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:11 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg To: Partha Dasgupta Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, readerlist , Jeebesh Bagchi > Dear Partha, > > > If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal > issues, I should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains > me. As per my knowledge SARAI reader list voice, > reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting > BHAGAVATGEETA, > sadrsam cestate svasyah > prakrter jnanavan api > prakrtim yanti bhutani > nigrahah kim karisyati > > Everyone gets to his own innate nature > That is his inherent potential > That is his swadharma > The wise one also tries to > Do karma according to his swadharma > How can anyone’s opinion > Or renouncing (nigrahah) anything > Make a difference in this situation? ||3:33|| > > indriyasyendriyasyarthe > raga-dvesau vyavasthitau > tayor na vasam agacchet > tau hy asya paripanthinau > > The indriyas have potential energy > There is always a momentum > One should know of the ragas and dweshas > That resides in every indriyas > Ready to hijack the person as a whole > And take him away from the > Path that leads to the center > (raga = attachments, dwesha = aversion, jealosy). ||3:34|| > > sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah > para-dharmat svanusthitat > sva-dharme nidhanam sreyah > para-dharmo bhayavahah > > Know and follow your swadharma > That is your aptitude > It is always better to die > Following your own dharma > > Following someone else’s path > And someone else’s dharma > Is against the very personal nature of our being > This is against the very aptitude (swadharma) > And can potentially lead to fear inside. > (Fear of the unknown and > The fear of being against one’s nature) ||3:35|| > I dont know what do you expect by writing that you are Hindu and > Indian married to christian. I am not the right person to > question about your life! > > I am not interested to ask that Christian is HINDU(I mean > Indian)? BRITISH? GERMAN? US? > I am not interested to know you are advicing your fellow Indians > wherever reading this, too follow the same as you did? > I am not interested to ask you dont you find a good Hindu girl > either in greater BANGLA or anywhere in the world? > I am not interested to ask you, that "Dont you find a good human > being among Indians living in the world" > > I am not interested to know what for you did that? Might thought > that you were the head of the heads by that time? or just saying > on SARAI for timebeing to contradict me or for any other reason? > > > I am not worried about the way your posts directed to SARAI, but > let me ask you > > 1)Being a great human being got married to another great human > being and never worried about what dharma that the child will > follow, Where are you living now? Your own home or the home built > by your parents? > > Because I astonished by reading TOI news recently stating that, > at the old age of 88 Zinnah > daughter feeling diehard to live their childhood home at MUMBAI. > Forget rest of all nonsense as per you, but if you living away > from your parents being a great human being what are your feeling? > Definitely you should have feelings, because you are a great > human being so What to post next is upto you. > > > Next regarding BRAHMINS, brahmins are just for name sake. The > fact is brahmins lost their whatever you say, when "INDIRA > PRIYADARSINI" got married to a Parsi, I believe. But as they are > also living beings on this earth like anybody continuing their > journey struggling for existance under the Dharma-Adharma > discrimination. > > > > I noticed that you forget to add your signature > "Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka " in your succesive mails. > > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > Partha Dasgupta wrote: > Hi, > > Fascinating read about the origin of zero. > > And I was wrong about India first using the symbol of zero in it's > curent form. > > India used a dot to signify zero while the Chinese used the open > circle that we use today. > > Of course, we can dismiss it as 'misinformation by foreign hand' > if it's inconvenient, so don't worry. > > Rgds, Partha > ................................. > > On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: Dear > Dhatri, > I'm proud to be a Hindu, but before that I'm proud to be an Indian. > > You'd probably not count me as a Hindu (and therefore not an > Indian) as I'm married to a Christian. And I will not apologise as > I married a wonderful human being whom I'm very proud of. I did > not marry her caste or religion. For that matter, I don't care > what relegion my children follow as long as they grow up to be > good human beings. > > I do hope that you do not exclude all but Hindu's in India... and > then move on to push out every one but brahmins. > > India was not won only by Hindu's. And do try and remember that > tribals are not Hindu's. They follow yakshas and yakshi's and not > the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva which happens to be the > definition of a Hindu. > > You claim to be proud of India and in the same breath knock the > elected representatives of India. > > Do look at facts. Do look at how you keep contradicting yourself > time and again. > > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/15/07, we wi wrote: > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: I am proud to be hindu, it makes me > tolerent, but not impotent, it makes me clever but not coward, > that I tolerate does not mean that I am quiet, I plan to > annihilate the opponents with my sama ,dana, bheda and finally > danda, as dandam dashagunam bhaveth. I foresee the future where > hindus divided by divisive politics unite together out of the > caste and class conundrums, as the political parties wake up from > their selfish greedy approach to seek power by part time > appeasement in the guise of "secular" rule has created more > discrimination than good rule of law. Next generation is ready now > and is waiting for a leader and chanakyas India, that is my > hindustan has all novel ideas of his, to conquer the evil for good > of the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: we wi > Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:17 pm > Subject: ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, > > > > Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from > > Gujarat . If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, > > Dhatri == Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother > > Earth. If you have patience to look at these terms just go > > through the entire link or just fire a find (Cntl+F) and type > > these terms over there. > > > > http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm > > > > To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - > > > > I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh > > parishaths, Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. > > India HINDU comes first and whatever comes is later. As a > Citizen > > of India, Valid Passport holder, It's my Constitutional right to > > vote as per my choice and live. Those all who never completed > > schooling and aware of India > > Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices > > to enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. > > > > Focusing on the topic now, > > > > What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing > > converse logic and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. > > >If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in > > the >same month as India, so perhaps they might reply by > > dispatching some >of them into India if India goes for hot > chases, > > surgical strikes, >masala dosas, bhel pooris etc. > > > > > > > > YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like > > India). > > > > Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical > > > > Induction,on Junaid statement > > "Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" > > > > so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not > > move out of their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how > > India can execute it later. > > > > --Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier > > > > Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata > > Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham > > TRANSLATION > > Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O > > Bharata, and a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! > > OR > > Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, > > O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at > > that time I descend myself. > > So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple > > understanding is the 9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more > > remaining to come. The followers of Buddhism now misunderstood > > it. > > > > --And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to > > the world or a bunch of people like you. What to do if > > people/countries like you are betraying then bullying is the last > > sort of option. I don't know how many of the readers aware of > > this but happy to quote from the first Para of the post > > > > --Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth > > > > > http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business > > --On 0, > > Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, > > understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and > > joviality (professor student) and your will in favor/against > > PATENTING and IPR is nothing to do with the practicalities. You > > may say that countries/you can use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN > > WAY. No problem you/countries can write whatever the way they > > wish to use. > > > > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the > > members aware that except a few all countries signed WTO Free > > trade Geneva pact. Under this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. > > How is this useful and applicable to India? Let me explain more > > scientifically. Hitech world use computers day-to-day life > > everywhere. Computers operate on "bit". A bit is nothing but a > > binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get Patenting and IPR > > over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact should > > take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > > NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or > > whatever COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, > > India may/may not uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind > > enough to allow countries to use 0 for general purposes. It > > depends again. > > > > Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear > > dispatch, for moving them people need INDIA permission. > > > > We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and > > need a motivated, will powered political system to execute this. > > This is feasible 99%. > > > > Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. > > > > --On points 1,2,3 > > You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and > > Sadhus Shri Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). > > Because they are all sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You > > will never compare them with Aurangazeb. > > For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its > > boarders from Alexander to British > > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha > > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka > > 3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra > > 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana > > > > For your better understanding > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > > > > -- On points 4,5 > > Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your > > writing are in genuine, I request you to please > > > > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond > > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne > > > > -- On points 6,7,8 > > Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna > > daughter is dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it > > till her teenage (before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. > > |This is the fact and for your kind information. I pity for > > Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah sister who migrated to > > Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR is an > > Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from > > Pakistan and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid > > or like personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to > > vacate peaks occupied and offered. > > Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive > > India is ready welcome the kid. > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your > > story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s > user panel and lay it on us. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the > hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. > --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Sat Sep 15 14:09:35 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:39:35 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709142142n52243b52o985c2ba9a568af15@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709142142n52243b52o985c2ba9a568af15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan, Your email clearly shows that what you are interested in is a show of who has greater number of followers and who has greater strength. Why not have a physical fight instead of a list fight? I am willing to take you on if that is the case. You say: "> When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the liberty to > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi." - now if you have any sense of honesty, sincerity, and integrity, then go back to all the discussions we have had which say anything to the effect of "we love Yasin Malik and he is modern day Gandhi". Dig out one email which says this and I will bow before your lordship, without hesitation, that you are right and some of us behind these computer screens are wrong. At the end of the day brother, what you are interested in is proving yourself right and jeering at others saying that they are wrong. What kind of debate/argument/stand is this? If at the end of the day, your intention is to bring Yasin malik to the book, then there is a court of law out there, however flawed it may be. Go to the court and fight your battles there. Go, take on Yasin malik if you have the guts to. What are you trying to prove here? Why not bare yourself totally on this list saying what is it exactly that you want? No point in beating about the bush, eh? Peace be with you and peace in your heart. My sincere prayers. Zainab On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:12:01 +0530, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Dear Anamika , > > That is what I was trying to provoke the likes of Suddha , Partha and > Zainab > to think into. > > > And when I express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought to justice > , > they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. > > If my expression of resentment for a man who has made me homeless is not > acceptable in freedom of speech , I wonder what else is ? > > I would continue to drag the issue below or above the belt as long as the > terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested a button > is > needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That is a gift technology > has > given to us. > > But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. > > To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list writing to > me offline and appreciating my concern. > > Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down the line your child > may be writing the same stuff which I write now. > > Pawan > > > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and counter > replies >> ...true...that >> freedom of speech must be maintained and preserved but these...pawan and >> company drag >> it below the belt...it is so difficult to have a constructive argument >> with them.. >> >> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : >> >Rana Dasgupta wrote: >> > >> > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the > enormous >> > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I have to > say >> > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. > People >> > > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or from >> > > violent attacks. >> > >> >I take it all back. >> >_________________________________________ >> >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >Critiques & Collaborations >> >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject >> header. >> >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Sat Sep 15 15:37:19 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:07:19 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Lists and assaults In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709150229t6c1dcefdo8c1d04453f1addc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709150229t6c1dcefdo8c1d04453f1addc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <02268e1ddbe575be93ac09d429c9adbb@mail.xtdnet.nl> Answer my question: You say: "> When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the >> >> liberty to > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi." - now if > you >> >> have any sense of honesty, sincerity, and integrity, then go back to >> all >> >> the discussions we have had which say anything to the effect of "we >> love >> >> Yasin Malik and he is modern day Gandhi". If you don't answer my question, I will think that all along, your have been uttering lies and that the pain that you are talking about is also false. I will also be forced to conclude that you are out just to malign people for fun. Answer my question if you have the courage to speak the truth. Zainab On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:59:25 +0530, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Defending a criminal and speaking against those who want to bring justice > is > as good as supporting a criminal. > > Why do these people react everytime crimes of Yasin malik is discussed , > If > i am obsessed with bringing the terrorist to Justice , so are these > obsessed > to twist the words and divert the attention from the terrorist. > > Lastly,dear friend , I am not here for TRP. It's just that since i have > suffered from this terrorist that I speak. > > Regards > > Pawan > > > On 9/15/07, zainab wrote: >> >> Yes, very much. I do believe that Yasin should be brought to justice > just >> as much as all perpetrators of violence in J&K, including the government >> of >> India. >> >> Now answer my question if you have an iota of dignity, sincerity, > honesty, >> truth: >> >> You say: "> When they talk about freedom of expression , that means the >> >> liberty to > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi." - now if > you >> >> have any sense of honesty, sincerity, and integrity, then go back to >> all >> >> the discussions we have had which say anything to the effect of "we >> love >> >> Yasin Malik and he is modern day Gandhi". Dig out one email which > says >> >> this >> >> and I will bow before your lordship, without hesitation, that you are >> >> right >> >> and some of us behind these computer screens are wrong. >> >> If you cannot answer this question, then think about the consequences > for >> yourself, including consequences from all the fifty peopple who are >> writing >> to you in your praise. Mind you, your TRP ratings and fan following are >> now >> at risk until you don't answer this question. >> >> Peace be with you and peace in your heart and mind. My sincere prayers, >> >> Zainab >> >> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:07:55 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > > >> wrote: >> > Do you favor him being bought to justice ? >> > >> > On 9/15/07, zainab wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan, >> >> >> >> Your email clearly shows that what you are interested in is a show of >> > who >> >> has greater number of followers and who has greater strength. Why not >> > have >> >> a physical fight instead of a list fight? I am willing to take you on >> if >> >> that is the case. >> >> >> >> You say: "> When they talk about freedom of expression , that means > the >> >> liberty to > portray a terrorist as a moderan day Gandhi." - now if > you >> >> have any sense of honesty, sincerity, and integrity, then go back to >> all >> >> the discussions we have had which say anything to the effect of "we >> love >> >> Yasin Malik and he is modern day Gandhi". Dig out one email which > says >> >> this >> >> and I will bow before your lordship, without hesitation, that you are >> >> right >> >> and some of us behind these computer screens are wrong. At the end of >> > the >> >> day brother, what you are interested in is proving yourself right and >> >> jeering at others saying that they are wrong. What kind of >> >> debate/argument/stand is this? >> >> >> >> If at the end of the day, your intention is to bring Yasin malik to > the >> >> book, then there is a court of law out there, however flawed it may > be. >> > Go >> >> to the court and fight your battles there. Go, take on Yasin malik if >> > you >> >> have the guts to. What are you trying to prove here? Why not bare >> > yourself >> >> totally on this list saying what is it exactly that you want? No > point >> > in >> >> beating about the bush, eh? >> >> >> >> Peace be with you and peace in your heart. My sincere prayers. >> >> >> >> Zainab >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:12:01 +0530, "Pawan Durani" >> > > >> > >> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear Anamika , >> >> > >> >> > That is what I was trying to provoke the likes of Suddha , Partha > and >> >> > Zainab >> >> > to think into. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > And when I express my desire that a terrorist has to be bought to >> >> justice >> >> > , >> >> > they find it pushing and then use some unparliamentary words. >> >> > >> >> > If my expression of resentment for a man who has made me homeless > is >> > not >> >> > acceptable in freedom of speech , I wonder what else is ? >> >> > >> >> > I would continue to drag the issue below or above the belt as long > as >> >> the >> >> > terrorist is not bought to justice. if someone is not interested a >> >> button >> >> > is >> >> > needed to delete the mail or put me on SPAM . That is a gift >> > technology >> >> > has >> >> > given to us. >> >> > >> >> > But if I interest you , you would continue to read me. >> >> > >> >> > To put on record I have around 50 + subscribers of readers-list >> > writing >> >> to >> >> > me offline and appreciating my concern. >> >> > >> >> > Who knows, the way things are turning , 20 years down the line your >> >> child >> >> > may be writing the same stuff which I write now. >> >> > >> >> > Pawan >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 14 Sep 2007 23:19:52 -0000, Anamika Bhatnagar < >> >> > bhatnagar_anamika at rediffmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Man...I am seriously irritated by these stupid replies and counter >> >> > replies >> >> >> ...true...that >> >> >> freedom of speech must be maintained and preserved but > these...pawan >> >> and >> >> >> company drag >> >> >> it below the belt...it is so difficult to have a constructive >> > argument >> >> >> with them.. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Rana Dasgupta wrote : >> >> >> >Rana Dasgupta wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > Given the seriousness of some of the issues at stake, and the >> >> > enormous >> >> >> > > gulfs of understanding between some of the contributors, I > have >> > to >> >> > say >> >> >> > > I've admired the restraint of many of the writers on the list. >> >> > People >> >> >> > > have held themselves back from expressing outright disgust, or >> > from >> >> >> > > violent attacks. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >I take it all back. >> >> >> >_________________________________________ >> >> >> >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> >Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject >> >> >> header. >> >> >> >To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >List archive: >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 14:24:38 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:24:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Open letter to MPs from CPI(M) In-Reply-To: <98f331e00709170022uf342821t13c68a284854f3a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00709170022uf342821t13c68a284854f3a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709170154p37acab8h20ad7d0dd0f9394f@mail.gmail.com> An intresting article on the same topic...... http://mutiny.in/2007/09/01/response-to-cpim-objections-against-the-indo-us-nuclear-deal/ On 9/17/07, prakash ray wrote: > > *AN OPEN LETTER TO MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT** * > *from Central Committee, CPI(M) * > > * > September 8, 2007 * > > *Dear Member of Parliament,** * > > *The Indo-U.S. bilateral agreement on nuclear cooperation has raised a > number of issues which are of vital importance to the nation. Through this > open letter we wish to place before you the considered views of the > Communist Party of India (Marxist).** * > > *Ever since the Joint Statement issued in July 2005 during the Prime > Minister's visit to Washington in which the civilian nuclear cooperation > agreement was announced, there has been a debate in the country about the > merits of such an agreement. Political parties, nuclear scientists, the > media and concerned citizens have been expressing their views. Parliament > has also discussed the agreement at various stages. However, the current > debate is crucial as the bilateral text has been finalised and the > Government is planning to take the next steps to operationalise the > agreement. ** * > > *It is our contention that the nuclear cooperation agreement should not be > seen in isolation from the overall context of India-US strategic > relations, > its impact on our foreign policy and our strategic autonomy. Further, the > nuclear cooperation agreement must be seen in the context of our energy > security, access to technology and the development of the three stage > nuclear programme. * > > *The bilateral "123" agreement has also to be seen also in the light of > the > assurances given by the Prime Minister in his statement to Parliament on > 17 > August 2007. * > > *The Left parties have asked the Government not to proceed with the next > steps to be taken to operationalise the agreement. * > *Implications of the Hyde Act * > > *Members of Parliament will recall that in August 2006, there was a debate > on the draft law being discussed by the US Senate and the House of > Representatives to amend the US Atomic Energy Act of 1954 to give > exemption > for the proposed nuclear cooperation agreement with India. The two > draft > legislations before the House of Representatives and the Senate contain > many > provisions which were detrimental to India's interests. * > > *The Prime Minister had given certain categorical assurances on the > points > raised regarding this draft legislation. The nine points which the Left > parties had raised were covered by the Prime Minister's statement. > However, > subsequent to that, the Hyde Act (Henry J. Hyde United States-India > Peaceful > Atomic Energy Cooperation Act" was adopted by the US Congress in December > 2006. * > > *Many of the provisions of the Hyde Act go contrary to the assurances > given > by the Prime Minister in August 2006. What are these? * > > *· Under the terms set out by the Hyde Act, it is clear that the > Indo-US nuclear cooperation would not cover the entire nuclear fuel cycle. > It denies cooperation or access in any form whatsoever to fuel enrichment, > reprocessing and heavy water production technologies. * > > *· The denial extends to transfer of dual use technology and covers > items which could be used in fuel enrichment, reprocessing or heavy water > production facilities. Thus, dual use restrictions remain on technology > transfers to India. Hyde Act section 102 (13) states, "The US should not > seek to facilitate or encourage the continuation of nuclear exports to > India by any other party if such exports are terminated under US law". * > > *· Section 103 (a)(6) of the Hyde Act says US policy shall be "Seek > to prevent the transfer to a country (India, in this case) nuclear > equipment, materials or technology from other participating governments in > the NSG or from any other source if nuclear transfers to that country > (India, in this case) are suspended or terminated pursuant to this title > (Hyde Act), the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 or any other US law". * > > *The Act concerns itself with areas outside nuclear cooperation and > contains > objectionable clauses to get India to accept the strategic goals of the > United States. These issues are: * > > *· Annual certification and reporting to the US Congress by the > President on a variety of foreign policy issues such as India's foreign > policy being "congruent to that of the United States" and specifically > India > joining US efforts to isolate and put sanctions against Iran [Section > 104g(2) E(i)] * > > *· Indian participation and formal declaration of support for the > US' > highly controversial Proliferation Security Initiative including the > illegal > policy of interdiction of vessels in international waters [Section 104g(2) > K] * > > *· India conforming to various bilateral/multilateral agreements to > which India is not currently a signatory such as the US' Missile > Technology > Control Regime (MTCR), the Australia Group etc [Section 104c E,F,G] * > > *It is on the basis of the Hyde Act that the United States has negotiated > the bilateral "123" agreement with India. Some of the harmful provisions > of > the Hyde Act are reflected in the bilateral agreement. * > > *· The bilateral agreement, while superficially using the original > wording of the joint statement of 2005, "full civilian nuclear > cooperation" > actually denies cooperation or access in any form whatsoever to fuel > enrichment, reprocessing and heavy water production technologies. The > statement of intent in the agreement that a suitable amendment to enable > this access may be considered in the future has little or no operative > value. * > > *· Further, this denial (made explicit in Art 5.2 of the agreement) > also extends to transfers of dual-use items that could be used in > enrichment, reprocessing or heavy water production facilities, again a > stipulation of the Hyde Act. Under these terms, a wide range of sanctions > on > a host of technologies would continue, falling well short of "full > civilian > nuclear co-operation". * > > *· It is also important to recognise that the fast breeder reactors > under this agreement would be treated as a part of the fuel cycle and any > technology required for this would also come under the dual use technology > sanctions. This would be true even if future fast breeder reactors were > put > in the civilian sector and under safeguards. Thus, India's attempt to > build > a three-phase, self-reliant nuclear power program powered ultimately by > thorium would have to be developed under conditions of isolation and > existing technology sanctions. * > > *· Another key assurance that had been given by the Prime Minister > was that India would accept safeguards in perpetuity only in exchange for > the guarantee of uninterrupted fuel supply. While the acceptance on > India's > part of safeguards in perpetuity has been spelt out, the linkage of such > safeguards with fuel supply in perpetuity remains unclear. * > > *The assurance that the United States would enable India to build a > strategic fuel reserve to guard against disruption of supplies for a > duration covering the lifetime of the nuclear reactors in operation > appears > to have been accepted in the agreement. However, whether the fuel supply > will continue even after cessation or termination of the agreement depends > solely on the US Congress. The Hyde Act explicitly states that the US will > work with other Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) countries to stop all fuel > and > other supplies to India if the agreement is terminated under US laws. > Since > this agreement explicitly incorporates domestic laws, it appears that fuel > supply from the US will not only cease in case the US decides to terminate > the Agreement but they are also required under the Hyde Act to work with > NSG > to bar all future supplies. The clause 5.6 on disruption of supplies > therefore seems to be limited to "market failures" and not to cover a > disruption that takes place under the clauses of the Hyde Act. In such an > eventuality, the US will have to pay compensation to India but all future > fuel supplies would stop. Therefore, the 123 agreement represents the > acceptance of IAEA safeguards in perpetuity for uncertain fuel supplies > and > continuing nuclear isolation with respect to a substantial amount of > technological know-how. * > > * **The Hyde Act and Supremacy of National Law * > > *The government has asserted that the Hyde Act is not binding on > India. The > relevant issue is that it is binding on the United States and this has > been > repeatedly stressed by US spokespersons. * > > *Article 2 (1) of the 123 Agreement states, "The parties shall cooperate > in > the use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes in accordance with the > provisions of this agreement. Each party shall implement this agreement in > accordance with its respective applicable treaties, national > laws,regulations, and license requirements concerning the use of > nuclear energy > for peaceful purposes". * > > *If the argument is that the reference to national laws is simply the case > of binding towards the law, that will have a bearing on the conduct of > different transactions under the 123 agreement, then what do we make of > the > reference to national laws in other places in the 123 agreement? * > > *Thus, for instance, Article 5 (6) (a) in part states that "As part of > its > implementation of the July 18, 2005, joint statement the United States is > committed to seeking agreement from the US Congress to amend its domestic > laws…to create the necessary conditions for India to obtain full access to > the international fuel market…..". Article 5(6) (b) (i) states that "The > United States is willing to incorporate assurances regarding fuel supply > in > the bilateral US-India agreement on peaceful uses of nuclear energy under > Section 123 of the US Atomic Energy Act, which would be submitted to the > US > Congress". These clauses show that the need for conformity with "national > laws" is not superfluous. If there is no direct reference to the Hyde Act > in > the 123 agreement, it is simply because and this is worth reiterating that > the Hyde Act is the `Act to exempt from certain requirements of the Atomic > Energy Act of 1954 a proposed nuclear agreement for cooperation with > India. > * > *Nuclear Power and Energy Security * > > *It is said that the Indo-US nuclear deal is central to our future > electricity and energy requirements. At present, nuclear power generation > capacity in India stands at 4,120 MW which is a little less than 3 per > cent > of our installed capacity of all power plants. One reason has been the > nuclear isolation imposed on us resulted in the slow development of our > civilian nuclear energy programme. However our scientists overcoming many > hurdles did very well in indigenising the Pressurised Water Reactors, and > then developing it further to 540 MW. The next stage is the fast breeder > reactors, in which the Indian scientists are leading the world. The > planned > three stage nuclear programme would depend largely on technologies based > on > fast breeder reactors, and in the future, thorium as fuel. This programme > requires far less uranium and lower dependence. Instead, the imported > reactor route would focus much more on Light Water Reactors, which require > much more uranium and are more expensive. Thus even the technology being > offered will not necessarily be the best choice for India. Significantly, > the mainstay of our nuclear power program – the fast breeder reactors – > will > still be under technology sanctions, as they would be considered a part of > the fuel cycle. * > > *The other reason is the techno-economics of nuclear power and its > relatively high cost. Nuclear power plants are about 50% per cent more > expensive, even when using domestic technology and equipment. If imported > reactors for nuclear power are considered, the situation becomes worse: it > will cost about three times as much to set up nuclear plants with imported > reactors than coal based ones. It will also cost twice as much per unit – > Rs. 5.10-5.50 as against Rs. 2.50 from coal fired plants. * > > *According to the Planning Commission's study, the most optimistic > scenario > of nuclear power is 15,000 MW by 2015 and 29,000 MW by 2021. These > targets > includes 8,000 MW of imported reactors. Even then, nuclear energy will > only add up to about 7 per cent of our total installed capacity. * > > *Going ahead with such an ambitious power programme dependant on imports > will come at a high cost and will dry up investments in other sectors. > Interestingly enough, nuclear power is not the energy of choice for most > advanced countries. The US itself has commissioned its last reactor in > 1996! > Members of Parliament may recall the fiasco of Enron and its Dabhol power > plants. * > *Implications for Foreign Policy and Strategic Autonomy * > > *The United States does not see the nuclear cooperation agreement as a > stand-alone. It is part of American design to try in India a wide ranging > strategic alliance which will adversely affect the pursuit of an > independent > foreign policy and our strategic autonomy. The facts speak for > themselves. > * > > *· Two weeks prior to the joint statement which announced the > Indo-US > nuclear cooperation agreement, India signed a ten-year Defence Framework > Agreement with the United States in June 2005. This is being cited by the > Bush administration as India's commitment to cooperate with the United > States furthering its strategic interests in Asia. * > > *· Two months after the nuclear cooperation agreement was announced > in September 2005, India voted against Iran in the International Atomic > Energy Agency, contrary to its stance earlier that Iran, as an NPT > signatory, has every right to develop its nuclear technology for civilian > purposes. * > > *· This was followed by a second vote against Iran in February on > the > eve of President Bush's visit to India. * > > *· Nicholas Burns, US Under Secretary of State, in his "On record > briefing" after the finalisation of the 123 agreement said on July 27: > "And > I think now that we have consummated the civil nuclear trade between us, > if > we look down the road in the future, we're going to see far greater > defence > cooperation between the United State and India: training; exercises; we > hope, defence sales of American military technology to the Indian armed > forces." The United States is exercising tremendous pressure on India to > buy a whole range of weaponry including the 126 fighter planes, radar, > helicopters, > artillery etc. worth multi-billion dollars. * > > *Is the nuclear cooperation agreement going to bind India with the United > States in a relationship which goes contrary to our cherished goals of > national sovereignty and independent foreign policy and an economic > development based on the priorities of our people? * > > *The objections and the apprehensions raised by the Left parties and other > parties, organisations and concerned scientists and citizens need to be > examined before proceeding further. All we are asking the government to > do > is not to rush through with the next steps which are necessary to > operationalise the deal. * > > *We hope that you, as a Member of Parliament, which is the sovereign > representative institution of the Indian people, will seriously consider > these issues on this vital matter affecting our country's future. * > > *CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF INDIA (MARXIST) * > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mattersofart at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 19:37:31 2007 From: mattersofart at gmail.com (Anoop Kamath) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:07:31 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MOA September 2007 upload can be viewed online now! Message-ID: Dear Friends, Greetings from www.mattersofart.com. Our September 2007 upload can be viewed online now! - *Rusholme Project* Brings Art to Manchester's Curry Mile: *Poppy Bowers* reports on *Subodh Gupta*'s and *Rashid Rana*'s installations - *MOA publishes eminent art critic and curator **Sushma Bahl**'s curatorial essay for **Vistaar* - *Himanshu Verma* writes on his new exhibition *COOL 5: Cool Art, Cool People* - *Surya Singh* visits the fairytale world of *BM Kamath*'s latest solo show *108 Small Stories* - Exhibition reviews: *Chintan Upadhyay, Zakir Hussain, Gigi Scaria, Bharti Kher, Maneesha Doshi, Ramesh Gorjola, Alok Bal and Chinmoy Pramanick * Plus our regular features and news… Log on to www.mattersofart.com for the latest news in Indian contemporary art -- Anoop Kamath Editor-in-Chief www.mattersofart.com Mobile: 98111 68775 From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Sep 17 12:53:55 2007 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:23:55 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <181631.41448.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <32144e990709150503u62f0f22ap14f0ea3cdd72e82b@mail.gmail.com> <181631.41448.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear all, it is common sense that tell us that as a child is born, mother is truth, father is faith, as the child grows, it gets all the trappings of faith, when child is born it does not get faith, it is told by its mother, that some male is his / her father, it is faith. So also in society, where knowledge ends, faith commences. Gita for me is the way of life far above the religious scriptures, as it shows the way of life, secrets of knowledge where we get answers to questions that arise in our intellect about all that is material, intellectual and spiritual. It does not distinguish the humans on "caste' as we see the castes today, it talks of work or vocation of an individual in society and his duties to society and exhorts him to do his work in society and serve the society without waiting for the fruits of his good work, submit all the actions to the supreme soul, so that his soul identifies itself with supreme soul that is GOD, called by any name, Shiva, Ram, Christ or Allah. As the names are only by choice of the faithful to their percieved GOD, who is one for all humanity, living beings in form or in Sakara roop, or in Nirvikara swaroop a super soul of all the souls, all actions have reactions, some immediate, some menifest, some delayed reactions to every action in society. The day, all humans understand their role in society to live life with compassion and affection to all in society, be responsible and responsive to others in society and identify their interest with that of society, rise above greed and selfish interests, all in society will have better life, as ills in society will lose out to good in society. Good of the individuals in society is GOD to all in society. ----- Original Message ----- From: we wi Date: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:11 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg To: Partha Dasgupta Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, readerlist , Jeebesh Bagchi > Dear Partha, > > > If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal > issues, I should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains > me. As per my knowledge SARAI reader list voice, > reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting > BHAGAVATGEETA, > sadrsam cestate svasyah > prakrter jnanavan api > prakrtim yanti bhutani > nigrahah kim karisyati > > Everyone gets to his own innate nature > That is his inherent potential > That is his swadharma > The wise one also tries to > Do karma according to his swadharma > How can anyone’s opinion > Or renouncing (nigrahah) anything > Make a difference in this situation? ||3:33|| > > indriyasyendriyasyarthe > raga-dvesau vyavasthitau > tayor na vasam agacchet > tau hy asya paripanthinau > > The indriyas have potential energy > There is always a momentum > One should know of the ragas and dweshas > That resides in every indriyas > Ready to hijack the person as a whole > And take him away from the > Path that leads to the center > (raga = attachments, dwesha = aversion, jealosy). ||3:34|| > > sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah > para-dharmat svanusthitat > sva-dharme nidhanam sreyah > para-dharmo bhayavahah > > Know and follow your swadharma > That is your aptitude > It is always better to die > Following your own dharma > > Following someone else’s path > And someone else’s dharma > Is against the very personal nature of our being > This is against the very aptitude (swadharma) > And can potentially lead to fear inside. > (Fear of the unknown and > The fear of being against one’s nature) ||3:35|| > I dont know what do you expect by writing that you are Hindu and > Indian married to christian. I am not the right person to > question about your life! > > I am not interested to ask that Christian is HINDU(I mean > Indian)? BRITISH? GERMAN? US? > I am not interested to know you are advicing your fellow Indians > wherever reading this, too follow the same as you did? > I am not interested to ask you dont you find a good Hindu girl > either in greater BANGLA or anywhere in the world? > I am not interested to ask you, that "Dont you find a good human > being among Indians living in the world" > > I am not interested to know what for you did that? Might thought > that you were the head of the heads by that time? or just saying > on SARAI for timebeing to contradict me or for any other reason? > > > I am not worried about the way your posts directed to SARAI, but > let me ask you > > 1)Being a great human being got married to another great human > being and never worried about what dharma that the child will > follow, Where are you living now? Your own home or the home built > by your parents? > > Because I astonished by reading TOI news recently stating that, > at the old age of 88 Zinnah > daughter feeling diehard to live their childhood home at MUMBAI. > Forget rest of all nonsense as per you, but if you living away > from your parents being a great human being what are your feeling? > Definitely you should have feelings, because you are a great > human being so What to post next is upto you. > > > Next regarding BRAHMINS, brahmins are just for name sake. The > fact is brahmins lost their whatever you say, when "INDIRA > PRIYADARSINI" got married to a Parsi, I believe. But as they are > also living beings on this earth like anybody continuing their > journey struggling for existance under the Dharma-Adharma > discrimination. > > > > I noticed that you forget to add your signature > "Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka " in your succesive mails. > > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > Partha Dasgupta wrote: > Hi, > > Fascinating read about the origin of zero. > > And I was wrong about India first using the symbol of zero in it's > curent form. > > India used a dot to signify zero while the Chinese used the open > circle that we use today. > > Of course, we can dismiss it as 'misinformation by foreign hand' > if it's inconvenient, so don't worry. > > Rgds, Partha > ................................. > > On 9/15/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: Dear > Dhatri, > I'm proud to be a Hindu, but before that I'm proud to be an Indian. > > You'd probably not count me as a Hindu (and therefore not an > Indian) as I'm married to a Christian. And I will not apologise as > I married a wonderful human being whom I'm very proud of. I did > not marry her caste or religion. For that matter, I don't care > what relegion my children follow as long as they grow up to be > good human beings. > > I do hope that you do not exclude all but Hindu's in India... and > then move on to push out every one but brahmins. > > India was not won only by Hindu's. And do try and remember that > tribals are not Hindu's. They follow yakshas and yakshi's and not > the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva which happens to be the > definition of a Hindu. > > You claim to be proud of India and in the same breath knock the > elected representatives of India. > > Do look at facts. Do look at how you keep contradicting yourself > time and again. > > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/15/07, we wi wrote: > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: I am proud to be hindu, it makes me > tolerent, but not impotent, it makes me clever but not coward, > that I tolerate does not mean that I am quiet, I plan to > annihilate the opponents with my sama ,dana, bheda and finally > danda, as dandam dashagunam bhaveth. I foresee the future where > hindus divided by divisive politics unite together out of the > caste and class conundrums, as the political parties wake up from > their selfish greedy approach to seek power by part time > appeasement in the guise of "secular" rule has created more > discrimination than good rule of law. Next generation is ready now > and is waiting for a leader and chanakyas India, that is my > hindustan has all novel ideas of his, to conquer the evil for good > of the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: we wi > Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:17 pm > Subject: ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0**** > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear Readers including Junaid in particular, > > > > Your Must understand that Dhatri is a pen name like junaid from > > Gujarat . If you go deeper meaning for this pen name Dhatri, > > Dhatri == Earth. Santi, Sama, Dama are qualities of Mother > > Earth. If you have patience to look at these terms just go > > through the entire link or just fire a find (Cntl+F) and type > > these terms over there. > > > > http://www.upnaway.com/~bindu/anantayogaweb/mind/mindchap37.htm > > > > To hell with the junaid sympathy, let me compose with a pity: - > > > > I have nothing to do with RSS, Sanghparivar, Vhp, Sadhu, Santh > > parishaths, Madras's and Junaid party elsewhere and feelings. > > India HINDU comes first and whatever comes is later. As a > Citizen > > of India, Valid Passport holder, It's my Constitutional right to > > vote as per my choice and live. Those all who never completed > > schooling and aware of India > > Will never understand this simple thing. I think this suffices > > to enlighten those narrowly shattered closed brains. > > > > Focusing on the topic now, > > > > What is USA will do is subject to change. Stop writing > > converse logic and in REVERSE WAY. Be Positive always. > > >If you remember Pakistan also detonated its nuclear weapons in > > the >same month as India, so perhaps they might reply by > > dispatching some >of them into India if India goes for hot > chases, > > surgical strikes, >masala dosas, bhel pooris etc. > > > > > > > > YOU FORGET TO ADD wadapav, pohe, kachori (sweet things like > > India). > > > > Let me add Chillies (spicy). By applying Mathematical > > > > Induction,on Junaid statement > > "Pakistani nuclear weapons won't reach US democrat" > > > > so as the same will be true and applicable that "they will not > > move out of their depots wherever they are". I will prove it how > > India can execute it later. > > > > --Buddhism is just a flavor of Hinduism. As I quoted earlier > > > > Yada yada hi dharmasya Glanir bhavati bharata > > Abhyutthanam adharmasya Tadatmanam srjamy aham > > TRANSLATION > > Whenever and wherever there is decay of righteousness, O > > Bharata, and a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest myself! > > OR > > Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, > > O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at > > that time I descend myself. > > So Sidhartha, or Gowtham Buddha, or Buddha for simple > > understanding is the 9th incarnation (out of 10) and one more > > remaining to come. The followers of Buddhism now misunderstood > > it. > > > > --And on Yoga as an alternative way that India freshly offers to > > the world or a bunch of people like you. What to do if > > people/countries like you are betraying then bullying is the last > > sort of option. I don't know how many of the readers aware of > > this but happy to quote from the first Para of the post > > > > --Dandam dasa gunam bhaveth > > > > > http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business > > --On 0, > > Though you agreed and admitted, it shows you lack of knowledge, > > understanding and vision. Your English usage, smartness and > > joviality (professor student) and your will in favor/against > > PATENTING and IPR is nothing to do with the practicalities. You > > may say that countries/you can use 0 as "orez" in your/their OWN > > WAY. No problem you/countries can write whatever the way they > > wish to use. > > > > I would like to bring a point on WTO, probably most of the > > members aware that except a few all countries signed WTO Free > > trade Geneva pact. Under this India can claim Patents/IPR over 0. > > How is this useful and applicable to India? Let me explain more > > scientifically. Hitech world use computers day-to-day life > > everywhere. Computers operate on "bit". A bit is nothing but a > > binary digit (0 or 1). If India claim and get Patenting and IPR > > over 0, those all countries under the cover of WTO Pact should > > take the permission from India to operate their ELECTRICAL, > > NUCLEAR, MILITARY, DEFENCE, SPACE, R & D, INUDSTRIAL RELATED or > > whatever COMPUTERISED automation systems. And general use of 0, > > India may/may not uses minimal charge. We (Indians) are so kind > > enough to allow countries to use 0 for general purposes. It > > depends again. > > > > Khalls, junaid and his favorite batch finished. Forget nuclear > > dispatch, formoving them people need INDIA permission. > > > > We (Indians) can do this practically with a proper planning and > > need a motivated, will powered political system to execute this. > > This is feasible 99%. > > > > Those 9 points are a few I mentioned there are many more. > > > > --On points 1,2,3 > > You are not supposed to speak on Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and > > Sadhus Shri Pandit Nehru, Gandhi, rest of the patriots (Indian). > > Because they are all sadhus and very kind hearted in nature. You > > will never compare them with Aurangazeb. > > For your kind information on India (Akhand Bharat) and its > > boarders from Alexander to British > > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhartha > > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asoka > > 3) http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html#KailasYatra > > 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satavahana > > > > For your better understanding > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Stone_Age > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > > > > > > -- On points 4,5 > > Koh-e-noor, Peacock throne, Shah-e-jahan, Nadir-shaw your > > writing are in genuine, I request you to please > > > > 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-e_Noor_Diamond > > 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne > > > > -- On points 6,7,8 > > Zinna tower is there at several places in India. And Zinna > > daughter is dying to live for her rest of the life as she did it > > till her teenage (before partition), in zinna home at Mumbai. > > |This is the fact and for your kind information. I pity for > > Jinnah, for Jinnah daughter and Jinnah sister who migrated to > > Pakistan during partition. Once again JAMMU AND KASHMIR is an > > Integral part of India with those of illegal occupations from > > Pakistan and China. We can think towards Akhand Bharat, if Junaid > > or like personalities/world can visit Pakistan and ask them to > > vacate peaks occupied and offered. > > Junaid can shout jihad there and see the reflections. If alive > > India is ready welcome the kid. > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your > > story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s > user panel and lay it on us. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the > hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Sep 17 13:05:57 2007 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:35:57 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <32144e990709151048j6dbc8db5s1053406f7af4328@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990709151048j6dbc8db5s1053406f7af4328@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Partha, your mail was quite amusing that the response of yours was not cool and composed one, is obivious, but when it comes to discussion the person who looses his cool and composure looses out to nonsensical argumentative thoughts. As to your having married a lady, of different faith, it does not matter in any way as that lady is also human, but if her qualities are inhuman, fanatic in her faith, your progeny will be not be getting any benefit of the good sanskaras that parents gave you, imbibed in you, to be good human,in particular your mother who taught to be good in society, achieve good life and position in society by fair ethical and moral life. Lots of affections, and regards, Vinutha. ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Saturday, September 15, 2007 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg To: tapasrayx at googlemail.com, readerlist , radhikarajen at vsnl.net, Jeebesh Bagchi > Hi Tapas, > > Forgive me if I bye-pass you to talk to someone else, but I would like > to talk to someone who can only hide behind shloks and skirt this > issue. > > In the meantime: > > 1. Dharma is ruled by the actions we take, and not the religion we > follow. I only stated that I don't care what religion my children > follow. Or have you blinkered yourself so far that you have forgotten > the basics of the dharam? > > 2. Whether I believe in misquoted chants or not, do you or do you not > beleive that the Hindu is the only inheritant of Hindustan (which by > the way is called India)? > 3. Since you so fondly remember my signature (resoundings claps for > your phenomenal memory) as an IT enabled person to a challenged > person, allow me to help you in understanding that Google (and most > other mail servers) have what they call a 'mobile' model and a > 'computer' model. If that surpasses your brilliance, do feel free to > mail/call me personally. And if you need more info, let me know and > i'll mail you my office & residence details. You are so obvious, and > so pathetic in your circle of hate that you even forget what Krishna > told Arjun on the eve of the battle. > > Damn!! I forgot it doesn't suit your argument. > > Jai (non Siya) Ram! > > Non-warmly, > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/15/07, Tapas Ray wrote: > > Excuse me, but this reads like plain goobledegook! > > > > And quoting the scriptures to preface that gook! Takes the cake, > man! Or > > the Benares peda! > > > > Tapas > > > > > > > > we wi wrote: > > > Dear Partha, > > > > > > > > > If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal > issues, I > > should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains me. As > per my > > knowledge SARAI reader list voice, > > > reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting > > BHAGAVATGEETA, > > > > > > sadrsam cestate svasyah > > > prakrter jnanavan api > > > prakrtim yanti bhutani > > > nigrahah kim karisyati > > > > > > Everyone gets to his own innate nature > > > That is his inherent potential > > > That is his swadharma > > > The wise one also tries to > > > Do karma according to his swadharma > > > How can anyone's opinion > > > Or renouncing (nigrahah) anything > > > Make a difference in this situation? ||3:33|| > > > > > > indriyasyendriyasyarthe > > > raga-dvesau vyavasthitau > > > tayor na vasam agacchet > > > tau hy asya paripanthinau > > > > > > The indriyas have potential energy > > > There is always a momentum > > > One should know of the ragas and dweshas > > > That resides in every indriyas > > > Ready to hijack the person as a whole > > > And take him away from the > > > Path that leads to the center > > > (raga = attachments, dwesha = aversion, jealosy). ||3:34|| > > > > > > sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah > > > para-dharmat svanusthitat > > > sva-dharme nidhanam sreyah > > > para-dharmo bhayavahah > > > > > > Know and follow your swadharma > > > That is your aptitude > > > It is always better to die > > > Following your own dharma > > > > > > Following someone else's path > > > And someone else's dharma > > > Is against the very personal nature of our being > > > This is against the very aptitude (swadharma) > > > And can potentially lead to fear inside. > > > (Fear of the unknown and > > > The fear of being against one's nature) ||3:35|| > > > I dont know what do you expect by writing that you are Hindu > and Indian > > married to christian. I am not the right person to question > about your > > life! > > > > > > I am not interested to ask that Christian is HINDU(I mean > Indian)?> BRITISH? GERMAN? US? > > > I am not interested to know you are advicing your fellow Indians > > wherever reading this, too follow the same as you did? > > > I am not interested to ask you dont you find a good Hindu > girl either in > > greater BANGLA or anywhere in the world? > > > I am not interested to ask you, that "Dont you find a good > human being > > among Indians living in the world" > > > > > > I am not interested to know what for you did that? Might > thought that > > you were the head of the heads by that time? or just saying on > SARAI for > > timebeing to contradict me or for any other reason? > > > > > > > > > I am not worried about the way your posts directed to SARAI, > but let me > > ask you > > > > > > 1)Being a great human being got married to another great > human being and > > never worried about what dharma that the child will follow, > Where are you > > living now? Your own home or the home built by your parents? > > > > > > Because I astonished by reading TOI news recently stating > that, at the > > old age of 88 Zinnah > > > daughter feeling diehard to live their childhood home at > MUMBAI. Forget > > rest of all nonsense as per you, but if you living away from > your parents > > being a great human being what are your feeling? Definitely you > should have > > feelings, because you are a great human being so What to post > next is upto > > you. > > > > > > > > > Next regarding BRAHMINS, brahmins are just for name sake. > The fact is > > brahmins lost their whatever you say, when "INDIRA PRIYADARSINI" > got married > > to a Parsi, I believe. But as they are also living beings on > this earth > > like anybody continuing their journey struggling for existance > under the > > Dharma-Adharma discrimination. > > > > > > > > > > > > I noticed that you forget to add your signature > > > "Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka " in your succesive mails. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dhatri. > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > From turbulence at turbulence.org Sat Sep 15 22:00:05 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:30:05 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Upgrade! Boston: Daniel C. Howe + Aya Karpinska Message-ID: <003f01c7f7b5$bf8e8c40$3eaba4c0$@org> < Daniel C. Howe + Aya Karpinska > << Call for Video Sharing Entries >> <<< Up Next >>> < Daniel C. Howe + Aya Karpinska > Digital Language: Poetry Beyond the Printed Page Moderated by Nick Montfort http://turbulence.org/upgrade/archives/09_20_07DHandAK.htm DATE: September 20, 2007 TIME: 7:00-9:00 pm VENUE: North 181, Massachusetts College of Art, 621 Huntington Avenue, Boston. [Ask the security guard at the main desk in the Tower Building how to get there] [Green Line "E"] Immersed as we are in digital media, we often overlook the centrality of written language in our experience of the world -- not only as the 'content' of digital media, but also in the processes that facilitate it. In digital literature, the written language of code generally operates on several interconnected levels. Though we tend to focus on its role as a container for displayed 'literary' content, code also exists as a static and legible 'text', in addition to its active function as instructions for the computer. Which of these levels is most relevant to our aesthetic experience of digital literature? Can we 'understand' any one level without exploring the others? With these questions in mind, we will present examples from recent work that leverages computational techniques to explore new possibilities in digital literature; from procedural recombinations, to dynamic physical interfaces, to three-dimensional environments for literary experimentation. About the Speakers : http://turbulence.org/upgrade/archives/09_20_07DHandAK.htm << Call for Video Sharing Works >> http://turbulence.org/upgrade/archives/VideoSharing_call.htm Upgrade! Boston is now accepting submissions for "Video Sharing Boston." We are interested in short experimental fragments, castoffs, and/or remixes; provocative, contemporary ideas; and works that challenge preconceptions and generate dialogue. Boston area artists only. Extended Deadline: September 30, 2007 <<< Up Next >>> Azra Akšamija - October 18, 2007 http://turbulence.org/upgrade/archives/10_18_07AA.html <<<< About Upgrade Boston >>>> Upgrade! Boston (http://turbulence.org/upgrade) is curated by Jo-Anne Green for Turbulence.org in partnership with the Studio for Interrelated Media at Massachusetts College of Art. It is one of 27 nodes currently active in Upgrade! International, an emerging network of autonomous nodes united by art, technology, and a commitment to bridging cultural divides. If you would like to present your work or get involved, please email jo at turbulence dot org. If you no longer wish to receive these notices, please reply to this email with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the subject line. Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From ssrindia at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 15:04:45 2007 From: ssrindia at gmail.com (Society for Social Research) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 21:34:45 -1200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] invitation to a talk by Gail Omvedt Message-ID: <5c011a160709160234i208c2b62had7a9067c877ea77@mail.gmail.com> *Society for Social Research*** * * Invites you for a Special Lecture By *Gail Omvedt* Eminent Sociologist and Activist On *SUBALTERN* * SOCIOLOGICAL VISIONS * Date*: * * * *20th SEPTEMBER, 2007(Thursday*) Time: 11.00 A.M. Venue: *Room No: 1, Ground Floor* *DEPARTMENT OF SOCIOLOGY,* Delhi School of Economics, University of Delhi -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 17 01:58:16 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:58:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Workshop for Writers - Delhi - 30th September Message-ID: <46ED91E0.4090803@sarai.net> For those of you in Delhi who are of the writerly persuasion. *Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:00 pm* The Attic The Attic, 36, Regal Building, 1st Floor, Next to Kwality Restaurant, Parliament Street, Connaught Place, New Delhi 110 001 *Caferati's first annual * *Celebrating Shakti Bhatt Workshop * ------------------------------ September 27th would have been Shakti Bhatt 's next birthday. Shakti was a friend to many of us, and generous in her support of Caferati. In her memory, we are starting something which we think she'd have approved of: a series of workshops for writers. We have two main sessions planned, and, true to Shakti's irreverent spirit, we also have some light-hearted short interludes in the works as well, all of it interactive and open to—nay, *demanding*—participation, so come prepared to learn, to experiment and to grow. And to have a grand time. *Creative Editing for Creative Writers* This session will be led by Urvashi Butalia and Anita Roy of Zubaan Books. The focus is on fiction writing (rather than poetry or academic), and the worskhop will look at the whole editorial process: preparing your manuscript for submission; things to avoid like the plague; what to expect from your editor (and what not); the difference between the various editorial functions (commissioning, line-editing, structural edit, proofing etc); editing your own work and developing a critical mind and editorial eye. *Indian Poetic Forms* H S Shivaprakash of the Jawaharlal Nehru University will lead the first part of this session. On Caferati, experimentation with poetic form is an old tradition. We have attempted to go beyond the traditional forms that poets in English attempt—sonnets, villanelles, terza rima, pantoums and so on—to follow the example of poets who have attempted forms that have their roots in other languages like the haiku. We have tried, with varying degrees of success, the ghazal, the andhadi, the doha, the kural and so on. We thought it would be interesting to tap into Indian and Asian poetic forms that we are not familiar with, and cannot easily access on the net, and see how this can enrich our writing in English. Prof Shivaprakash will take us through some of his work, and tell us about some Kannada poetic forms, and then throw the room open to questions and interaction. After a short break, Annie Zaidi will moderate a discussion on other Indian poetic forms. You are welcome to bring along any poems that you have written based on an Indian poetic form. *About the workshop leaders* *Urvashi Butalia* is co-founder of Kali for Women, India's first feminist publishing house and now Director of Zubaan , an imprint of Kali. She has been active in the women's movement in India for several years. She writes regularly for newspapers and magazines, and among her published books are the award-winning *The Other Side of Silence: Voices from the Partition of India*, *Speaking Peace: Women's Voices from Kashmir*(edited), *Women and the Hindu Right: A Collection of Essays * (edited) and several collections of short stories. She has also been on the juries of the Crossword Book Awards and on the Lettre Ulysses award. *Anita Roy* has been an editor for exactly half her life: the first ten in England (with Routledge and then Manchester University Press), and the last eleven in Delhi (with OUP, Dorling Kindersley and currently Zubaan). As an editor, she's worked on a range of books - from academic monographs, travel guides, general non-fiction, and fiction, to children's books. *H S Shivaprakash* is currently Associate Professor, School of Arts and Aesthetics in Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi. He published collections of poems, *Malebidda Nadalli* (1991) and *Anukshna Charite*(1991) and plays, *Sultan Tippu* (1986), *Mahachaitra* (1990), *Maranayakana Drishtanta*(1991), and *Manteswamy Katha Pasanga *. As a playwright, Shivaprakash has received Satyakama Prashasti (2003). ------------------------------ This workshop series is not for profit. The Attic is very kindly giving us the use of the premises for free.We will, however, be serving snacks and beverages, and we would like to make small gifts to our workshop leaders. So we are charging a small fee: a minium of Rs 100 per person, and for students with valid ID cards, a minimum of Rs 50. Participants are welcome to give more. Any surplus will be donated to a worthy cause. Please note that a lot of planning goes into events like these, and such expenses as there are will be coming out of our pockets. So we urge you to book your place early, so that we have a fix on the numbers and can makes sure that everyone is comfortable and well-fed. We are asking people to pay up and confirm in advance, so that we are sure of numbers and can make sure that both events run smoothly. The people to inform: Annie Zaidi, Anita Vasudeva or Danish Husain in Delhi or Manisha Lakhe or Peter Griffin in Bombay — *zaidiannie*, *anita.vasudeva*, * dan.husain*, *manishalakhe*, *zigzackly* (all *@ gmail.com*) respectively. Please confirm as early as possible so that we can book your space. After the workshop, some of us plan to go out to drink a toast to Shakti, and to enjoy the company of friends over a cheery dinner. All participants are welcome to join in, and pay for whatever you drink or eat. *Directions* Your landmark is Kwality Restaurant. The Attic is next door. Organised and Hosted by Caferati's Delhi Chapter *(If you haven't done so already, please join Caferati's Delhi googlegroup to keep track of this and future events. For news on Caferati in general, please subscribe to Caferati Updates .* -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://zigzackly.blogspot.com/ http://yourchequeisinthemail.blogspot.com/ http://clickiii.blogspot.com/ & also http://www.caferati.com/ http://caferati.blogspot.com/ http://worldwidehelp.blogspot.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Sep 17 15:56:59 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 15:56:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir... In-Reply-To: <20070916115819.13339.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> References: <20070916115819.13339.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30709170326k72927217q2961c05f6d907af1@mail.gmail.com> Dear Junaid, Your arguments are well taken. The excuses that you list often do sound excuses to deny Kashmiris their right to self-determination and the parallels with British India are noteworthy. However, the experience of small countries within south asia - bangladesh, sri lanka, nepal and particularly bhutan - find it impossible to be neutral. that seems to me to be idealism inspired by the valley's beauty! Secondly, how do I know how many in Kashmir want statehood. And I am even more curious about the political aspirations of those in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. I know nothing of them, certainly not from non-partisan sources. Best shivam On 16 Sep 2007 11:58:19 -0000, junaid wrote: > > I wonder how the mainstream Indian discourse on Kashmir has been > internalized, so much that independence for Kashmir as a non-possibility is > seen as natural and obvious. What is it that makes even the Indian > Kashmir-sympathizers take anything-short-of-independence as axiomatic? Why > can't anyone here make a reasonable, educated argument about why this should > be the case? > > Do not speak of size, for Kashmir (valley) is definitely larger than many > countries in the world. If you speak of its land-lockedness, then I can > count you a number of European and Asian countries that are small and > land-locked. If you speak of three Asian bullies—India, Pakistan and > China—surrounding it, then I must say international treaties, bilateral > non-aggression pacts, and Kashmir's neutrality will be Kashmir's best > defense. Aren't so many small countries surviving, and actually doing well, > with really no defense in place, but just goodwill and international norms? > If you say, lack of economic self-reliance, then I will just point to the > great natural and human resources in Kashmir. > > And if it is a unique case, then let it be a unique country in the world. > Weak, Poor, and Defenceless. But a country whose people are the masters of > their fate. > > If you are still stuck up on "anything-short-of..." argument then I must > tell you Kashmiris really don't give a damn. They fight for freedom, and > they will surely learn how to handle it. Before British left Indian > subcontinent, they used to make a similar argument. The Indian visionaries > made the counter argument that you can't learn to love freedom and democracy > unless you taste it. Although Indians have not come up to the expectations, > and its elite--Brahmanical as well as corporate--have cozened and defrauded > the lower castes and the poor, yet India is not doing that badly. Since > Kashmir is not beset with so many contradictions like post-independence > India, I guess it will outdo India in preserving freedom. > > Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- ------------------------------------------------------ Shivam Vij 9871845627 www.shivamvij.com mail at shivamvij.com Correspondent, Tehelka M-76, 2nd Floor, M-Block Market Greater Kailash II, New Delhi 110048 Tel/Fax: 91-11-41638750-55 www.tehelka.com shivam at tehelka.com From parthaekka at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 16:02:49 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:02:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Quieting the Monkey Mind In-Reply-To: <588994.11011.qm@web45505.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <32144e990709162039j12eb7641q46f7821c156fd7d1@mail.gmail.com> <588994.11011.qm@web45505.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709170332s240e96f4o3b2b73bdded21bcb@mail.gmail.com> Hi Dhatri, a) You are welcome to your pen name, which is more powerful than a gun, but wouldn't it make more sense to use the name your family gave you? b) Whichever previous questions you wrote to me, do copy paste them here, and i'll answer them. c) I don't quite understand what you are trying to say about the upper caste. As I asked in my earlier post, are you posting in favour of or against the caste system? d) Sure, i'll pray. However, not at any church or temple or... As a matter of belief, am against organised religion and do not believe that some other person has the right to come between God and me, and tell me what I should believe. Awaiting your mail with whatever queries you feel Tapas Ray helped me avoid responding to. Rgds, Partha ........................................ PS: Forgot to mention, since this post is also going from my email software and not he webmail, it doesn't have my signature On 9/17/07, we wi wrote: > > Dear Partha, > > List will answer you! Mean time What exactly you wish me > to do? Whatever I write here is some action plans/some future plans if > acceptable and feasible. Some are cheeky and some serious. > > Dhatri is a pen name. A pen is always powerful than any gun. As I > stated I could not talk about your family matters and so as SARAI. If > you planned so nicely and fielded them to me, either case you need to write > a proper reply to my earlier post. But you failed to do so. Simply escaped > to answer that mail at all and write a post to "TAPAS RAY". > > As some body claimed "Upper castes did wrong", then > 1)you people decide and let the upper caste know. What is dharma and what > is Adharma? So that Upper caste follow totally. and > > 2)Upper caste only enjoy whatever as per your claim? But why so many > Upper caste people are unable to live normal life in India,as you were > operating imac at 90s and living either in own or ancestral home with or > without parents? > > 3)If Upper castes only enjoying then Everything should be clean in > India,like your "White" shirt,"White" BMW/Honda city/Benz car,"White" > bungalow,"White" marbled nice partitioned Office, or even like your "White" > colored job and money as it was pre freedom and up-to some level post > Independence. Is it like that now? Why > > Let me bring a point to your notice, With my comments at least you > did some groundwork/homework before writing to SARAI. This is my > achievement obviously you must accept it to self if not to SARAI for which > everybody is a member. > > > So many question to you with a nice good predicate logic, I hope this time > you will answer them all without confusion and show a path to me and to the > problems that India has been facing, and to SARAI as well? Then SARAI will > be closed/shutdown as all problem are resolved because of your directions. > > Before answer this I suggest you to do a 5 min prayer either at temple or > at church. > > Don't ask me Protestant Church/Catholic Church? Don't say I don't do > because i am not concerned or worried ? You are not concerned/worried about > yourself / child because you worry by visualizing the future( Insecurity). > Hence I tell you to sit at your home/office just do a prayer that's enough. > > You do excuse me, in anyway I hurt you. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > Hi Dhatri, > > Just so that I'm clear in my mind, some questions > > 1. Does your post signify that we should change the caste based hierarchy > or that we should not? > > 2. I certainly agree that crying over 'spilt milk' won't help. However, > if you have > an old wound that is troubling you, ignoring it is counter > productive. At the > end of the day, everything boils down to the issue that if it is a > healing scab, > then let it be - however, if it is a fracture or something more > serious, then it > needs medical attention. > > 3. Besides monkeys, jihad and changing street names, what was the point > of this post. > > Rgds, Partha > ................ > > On 9/16/07, we wi wrote: > > > > "The monkey mind jumps from thought to thought like a monkey jumps from > > tree to tree. Rather than existing in the present moment, the monkey mind > > focuses on one thought after another, and these thoughts distract us from > > exisiting in the present, which is one of the goals of yoga. Sitting in > > meditation is a good way to see the monkey mind in its natural habitat. Just > > sitting still and clearing the mind is so challenging. You observe one > > thought popping up, and another, and another. This is inevitable, especially > > when you are getting started. The trick is to learn to observe the thoughts > > without engaging in them. An analogy I like is to see the mind as the sky > > and the thoughts like clouds passing through. Whether you are meditating > > or practicing asanas, returning your attention again and again to the breath > > will always help you detach from the thoughts and return to the present > > moment. Each inhale and exhale exists only in the present. When you are > > doing asanas, remind > > yourself to use Ocean Breathing (Ujjayi) each time you catch yourself > > thinking. " > > > > As the monkey handled in better way in the above, so as the > > perpetrators and their actions. Atricities in the name of jihad will never > > be treated as simple childish moves and so as the shouters. Caste based > > system is there in India, like wise Racism in the rest of the > > world. Fighting for them is no way usefull except to turn the things > > perpetrators favour to make things more worsen. Start thinking to build > > unique nation INDIA and participate constructively in its development for > > the sake of all Indians. Changing place names,killing people,wiping out > > sanskrit universities, lamenting monuments wont help in any way. > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user > > panel and lay it on us. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > ------------------------------ > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! > > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 16:46:44 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] **Jammu and Kashmir with occupied teritorries is an inseparable, undivided, integral part of India**** In-Reply-To: <619129.6594.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <647726.34157.qm@web45505.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> we wi wrote: Dear Readers, 1) http://www.vepachedu.org/hyderabad.html 2) http://www.telangana.com/History/razakar.htm The above 2 links best describes the situation of then NIZAM STATE. The situation is very similar and is encouraged by Pakistan and blackened by China. Let me purforth you their view, 1) Allow crimes and admit pardons(local governing body will take care about this) 2) Horrify people so that they can run out of STATE,due to fear of death (All Perpetrators to move freely with super or whatever powers) 3) As the ransacking will continue with time there will be nill voice(due to deaths and exile) 4) Change the names of Geographical area(with all the resources) so that it looks entirely different and new. 5) Due Total wipe out, their goal achievement. If you go through the above links you can find that above 5 tactics that the RAZAKARS tried to execute on the then people living in princely NIZAM STATE, encouraged by NIZAM. Later story we all know. The situation is same but at different place now(Jammu and kashmir). As a normal citizen on India I feel Jammu and Kashmir(with occupied territories) is an inseparable,undivided,integral part of India. There is absolutely nothing wrong in this. If I remember some members writings on SARAI,"pundits will not return to the state" let me modify that view with a littile addition. YES PUNDITS WILL NOT RETURN TO THE JAMMU AND KASHMIR "alone". THE ENTIRE INDIA and Indians are WITH THEM and Will Come there if required. India is totally deceived and so as the successive rules starting from Late Shri Nehru to late IndiraPriyadarshini including late L.B.Sastry and A.B. Vajpayee as well. These rulers faced the war games and the rest of the rules facing the above mentioned silly damaging techniques. So as per -- the dandam dasa gunam bhaveth, http://ndtv.com/mb/readreply.asp?topicid=1707&id=629543&tablename=Business as Pakistan or whoever perpetrators from whereever joined for the above mentioned work are not in a position to take the advice in any way. This conclusion is because India has been trying and dealig with them with lucrative cool peace techniques and goodwill measures. Zinna spoiled Pakistan and successive rulers worsen it more for their greedy needs. As Zinna gone everything gone, except the thought that was injected into the minds. Prevention is better than cure otherwise roots should be cleaned for best results. So as the last sort of option, they should be dealt the similar way as RAZAKARS AND NIZAM dealt under the stewardship of Late Vallabhai Patel. Once this is done everthing will rest in peace and happy. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 17:16:34 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <532372.31915.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Jewels are coming out of radhikas pen. radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: Hi, Partha, your mail was quite amusing that the response of yours was not cool and composed one, is obivious, but when it comes to discussion the person who looses his cool and composure looses out to nonsensical argumentative thoughts. As to your having married a lady, of different faith, it does not matter in any way as that lady is also human, but if her qualities are inhuman, fanatic in her faith, your progeny will be not be getting any benefit of the good sanskaras that parents gave you, imbibed in you, to be good human,in particular your mother who taught to be good in society, achieve good life and position in society by fair ethical and moral life. Lots of affections, and regards, Vinutha. ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Saturday, September 15, 2007 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg To: tapasrayx at googlemail.com, readerlist , radhikarajen at vsnl.net, Jeebesh Bagchi > Hi Tapas, > > Forgive me if I bye-pass you to talk to someone else, but I would like > to talk to someone who can only hide behind shloks and skirt this > issue. > > In the meantime: > > 1. Dharma is ruled by the actions we take, and not the religion we > follow. I only stated that I don't care what religion my children > follow. Or have you blinkered yourself so far that you have forgotten > the basics of the dharam? > > 2. Whether I believe in misquoted chants or not, do you or do you not > beleive that the Hindu is the only inheritant of Hindustan (which by > the way is called India)? > 3. Since you so fondly remember my signature (resoundings claps for > your phenomenal memory) as an IT enabled person to a challenged > person, allow me to help you in understanding that Google (and most > other mail servers) have what they call a 'mobile' model and a > 'computer' model. If that surpasses your brilliance, do feel free to > mail/call me personally. And if you need more info, let me know and > i'll mail you my office & residence details. You are so obvious, and > so pathetic in your circle of hate that you even forget what Krishna > told Arjun on the eve of the battle. > > Damn!! I forgot it doesn't suit your argument. > > Jai (non Siya) Ram! > > Non-warmly, > Rgds, Partha > > On 9/15/07, Tapas Ray wrote: > > Excuse me, but this reads like plain goobledegook! > > > > And quoting the scriptures to preface that gook! Takes the cake, > man! Or > > the Benares peda! > > > > Tapas > > > > > > > > we wi wrote: > > > Dear Partha, > > > > > > > > > If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal > issues, I > > should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains me. As > per my > > knowledge SARAI reader list voice, > > > reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting > > BHAGAVATGEETA, > > > > > > sadrsam cestate svasyah > > > prakrter jnanavan api > > > prakrtim yanti bhutani > > > nigrahah kim karisyati > > > > > > Everyone gets to his own innate nature > > > That is his inherent potential > > > That is his swadharma > > > The wise one also tries to > > > Do karma according to his swadharma > > > How can anyone's opinion > > > Or renouncing (nigrahah) anything > > > Make a difference in this situation? ||3:33|| > > > > > > indriyasyendriyasyarthe > > > raga-dvesau vyavasthitau > > > tayor na vasam agacchet > > > tau hy asya paripanthinau > > > > > > The indriyas have potential energy > > > There is always a momentum > > > One should know of the ragas and dweshas > > > That resides in every indriyas > > > Ready to hijack the person as a whole > > > And take him away from the > > > Path that leads to the center > > > (raga = attachments, dwesha = aversion, jealosy). ||3:34|| > > > > > > sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah > > > para-dharmat svanusthitat > > > sva-dharme nidhanam sreyah > > > para-dharmo bhayavahah > > > > > > Know and follow your swadharma > > > That is your aptitude > > > It is always better to die > > > Following your own dharma > > > > > > Following someone else's path > > > And someone else's dharma > > > Is against the very personal nature of our being > > > This is against the very aptitude (swadharma) > > > And can potentially lead to fear inside. > > > (Fear of the unknown and > > > The fear of being against one's nature) ||3:35|| > > > I dont know what do you expect by writing that you are Hindu > and Indian > > married to christian. I am not the right person to question > about your > > life! > > > > > > I am not interested to ask that Christian is HINDU(I mean > Indian)?> BRITISH? GERMAN? US? > > > I am not interested to know you are advicing your fellow Indians > > wherever reading this, too follow the same as you did? > > > I am not interested to ask you dont you find a good Hindu > girl either in > > greater BANGLA or anywhere in the world? > > > I am not interested to ask you, that "Dont you find a good > human being > > among Indians living in the world" > > > > > > I am not interested to know what for you did that? Might > thought that > > you were the head of the heads by that time? or just saying on > SARAI for > > timebeing to contradict me or for any other reason? > > > > > > > > > I am not worried about the way your posts directed to SARAI, > but let me > > ask you > > > > > > 1)Being a great human being got married to another great > human being and > > never worried about what dharma that the child will follow, > Where are you > > living now? Your own home or the home built by your parents? > > > > > > Because I astonished by reading TOI news recently stating > that, at the > > old age of 88 Zinnah > > > daughter feeling diehard to live their childhood home at > MUMBAI. Forget > > rest of all nonsense as per you, but if you living away from > your parents > > being a great human being what are your feeling? Definitely you > should have > > feelings, because you are a great human being so What to post > next is upto > > you. > > > > > > > > > Next regarding BRAHMINS, brahmins are just for name sake. > The fact is > > brahmins lost their whatever you say, when "INDIRA PRIYADARSINI" > got married > > to a Parsi, I believe. But as they are also living beings on > this earth > > like anybody continuing their journey struggling for existance > under the > > Dharma-Adharma discrimination. > > > > > > > > > > > > I noticed that you forget to add your signature > > > "Partha Dasgupta (9811047132) > > > http://www.jaxtr.com/parthaekka " in your succesive mails. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dhatri. > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 17:24:30 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Quieting the Monkey Mind In-Reply-To: <32144e990709170332s240e96f4o3b2b73bdded21bcb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <75051.64353.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Partha, As SARAI is not your office, my doubts/concerns about your understanding,logic is nothing to do with SARAI. SARAI can understand easily that, spoonfeeding is not required for you as you are a father to 3 children and also IT enabled person. Regards, Dhatri. Partha Dasgupta wrote: Hi Dhatri, a) You are welcome to your pen name, which is more powerful than a gun, but wouldn't it make more sense to use the name your family gave you? b) Whichever previous questions you wrote to me, do copy paste them here, and i'll answer them. c) I don't quite understand what you are trying to say about the upper caste. As I asked in my earlier post, are you posting in favour of or against the caste system? d) Sure, i'll pray. However, not at any church or temple or... As a matter of belief, am against organised religion and do not believe that some other person has the right to come between God and me, and tell me what I should believe. Awaiting your mail with whatever queries you feel Tapas Ray helped me avoid responding to. Rgds, Partha ......................................... PS: Forgot to mention, since this post is also going from my email software and not he webmail, it doesn't have my signature On 9/17/07, we wi wrote: Dear Partha, List will answer you! Mean time What exactly you wish me to do? Whatever I write here is some action plans/some future plans if acceptable and feasible. Some are cheeky and some serious. Dhatri is a pen name. A pen is always powerful than any gun. As I stated I could not talk about your family matters and so as SARAI. If you planned so nicely and fielded them to me, either case you need to write a proper reply to my earlier post. But you failed to do so. Simply escaped to answer that mail at all and write a post to "TAPAS RAY". As some body claimed "Upper castes did wrong", then 1)you people decide and let the upper caste know. What is dharma and what is Adharma? So that Upper caste follow totally. and 2)Upper caste only enjoy whatever as per your claim? But why so many Upper caste people are unable to live normal life in India,as you were operating imac at 90s and living either in own or ancestral home with or without parents? 3)If Upper castes only enjoying then Everything should be clean in India,like your "White" shirt,"White" BMW/Honda city/Benz car,"White" bungalow,"White" marbled nice partitioned Office, or even like your "White" colored job and money as it was pre freedom and up-to some level post Independence. Is it like that now? Why Let me bring a point to your notice, With my comments at least you did some groundwork/homework before writing to SARAI. This is my achievement obviously you must accept it to self if not to SARAI for which everybody is a member. So many question to you with a nice good predicate logic, I hope this time you will answer them all without confusion and show a path to me and to the problems that India has been facing, and to SARAI as well? Then SARAI will be closed/shutdown as all problem are resolved because of your directions. Before answer this I suggest you to do a 5 min prayer either at temple or at church. Don't ask me Protestant Church/Catholic Church? Don't say I don't do because i am not concerned or worried ? You are not concerned/worried about yourself / child because you worry by visualizing the future( Insecurity). Hence I tell you to sit at your home/office just do a prayer that's enough. You do excuse me, in anyway I hurt you. Regards, Dhatri. Partha Dasgupta wrote: Hi Dhatri, Just so that I'm clear in my mind, some questions 1. Does your post signify that we should change the caste based hierarchy or that we should not? 2. I certainly agree that crying over 'spilt milk' won't help. However, if you have an old wound that is troubling you, ignoring it is counter productive. At the end of the day, everything boils down to the issue that if it is a healing scab, then let it be - however, if it is a fracture or something more serious, then it needs medical attention. 3. Besides monkeys, jihad and changing street names, what was the point of this post. Rgds, Partha ................. On 9/16/07, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: "The monkey mind jumps from thought to thought like a monkey jumps from tree to tree. Rather than existing in the present moment, the monkey mind focuses on one thought after another, and these thoughts distract us from exisiting in the present, which is one of the goals of yoga. Sitting in meditation is a good way to see the monkey mind in its natural habitat. Just sitting still and clearing the mind is so challenging. You observe one thought popping up, and another, and another. This is inevitable, especially when you are getting started. The trick is to learn to observe the thoughts without engaging in them. An analogy I like is to see the mind as the sky and the thoughts like clouds passing through. Whether you are meditating or practicing asanas, returning your attention again and again to the breath will always help you detach from the thoughts and return to the present moment. Each inhale and exhale exists only in the present. When you are doing asanas, remind yourself to use Ocean Breathing (Ujjayi) each time you catch yourself thinking. " As the monkey handled in better way in the above, so as the perpetrators and their actions. Atricities in the name of jihad will never be treated as simple childish moves and so as the shouters. Caste based system is there in India, like wise Racism in the rest of the world. Fighting for them is no way usefull except to turn the things perpetrators favour to make things more worsen. Start thinking to build unique nation INDIA and participate constructively in its development for the sake of all Indians. Changing place names,killing people,wiping out sanskrit universities, lamenting monuments wont help in any way. --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 17:28:48 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:58:48 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <498207.35955.qm@web45503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <498207.35955.qm@web45503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46EE6BF8.2090003@googlemail.com> Could the preaching stop, please? This list is probably not an appropriate forum for expounding on the Gita or Bible or Quran or Talmud or what have you. It is for the honing of one's own reason on the other's reason and vice versa, and the emergence of a common understanding of life through this process. Faith, which is dogma and not reason, has no place in this scheme. Tapas we wi wrote: > Nice Reply. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Dear all, > it is common sense that tell us that as a child is born, mother is truth, father is faith, as the child grows, it gets all the trappings of faith, when child is born it does not get faith, it is told by its mother, that some male is his / her father, it is faith. So also in society, where knowledge ends, faith commences. > Gita for me is the way of life far above the religious scriptures, as it shows the way of life, secrets of knowledge where we get answers to questions that arise in our intellect about all that is material, intellectual and spiritual. It does not distinguish the humans on "caste' as we see the castes today, it talks of work or vocation of an individual in society and his duties to society and exhorts him to do his work in society and serve the society without waiting for the fruits of his good work, submit all the actions to the supreme soul, so that his soul identifies itself with supreme soul that is GOD, called by any name, Shiva, Ram, Christ or Allah. As the names are only by choice of the faithful to their percieved GOD, who is one for all humanity, living beings in form or in Sakara roop, or in Nirvikara swaroop a super soul of all the souls, all actions have reactions, some immediate, some menifest, some delayed reactions to every action in society. > The day, all humans understand their role in society to live life with compassion and affection to all in society, > be responsible and responsive to others in society and identify their interest with that of society, rise above greed and selfish interests, all in society will have better life, as ills in society will lose out to good in society. Good of the individuals in society is GOD to all in society. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: we wi > Date: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:11 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > To: Partha Dasgupta > > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, readerlist , Jeebesh Bagchi > >> Dear Partha, >> >> >> If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal >> issues, I should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains >> me. As per my knowledge SARAI reader list voice, >> reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting >> BHAGAVATGEETA, >> sadrsam cestate svasyah >> prakrter jnanavan api >> prakrtim yanti bhutani >> nigrahah kim karisyati >> From fmadre at free.fr Mon Sep 17 17:33:15 2007 From: fmadre at free.fr (fmadre at free.fr) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:03:15 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER 0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg In-Reply-To: <532372.31915.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <532372.31915.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070917140315.p5kysozg0s80840s@imp4.free.fr> ----- Message de dhatr1i at yahoo.com --------- À : radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc : tapasrayx at googlemail.com, readerlist , Jeebesh Bagchi > Jewels are coming out of radhikas pen. perhaps but your carelessness in the distribution of mail is a nuisance to others if you want to write to radhika please wipe out the cc list from your answer thank you as I don't want to use this post for a simple individual response I offer this link http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html#3 f. From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 17 17:56:29 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:56:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <108412.72843.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <108412.72843.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46EE7275.203@sarai.net> Dear Radhikarajen (or is it we wi) ji, My post on the Sethusamudram issue, does mention the Chinese nuclear tests in the Lop Nor Plauteau in Tibet, and if you had read till the end, I urge us all to ask the Chinese government to apologize to the people of Central Asia (including Tibet) for these tests and the disastrous effects they have had on the fragile ecology of Tibet, just as I have said everyone worried about the ecology of South Asia should ask for similar apologies from the Indian and Pakistani governments for Pokhran I and II and the Chagai Hills Tests. And as for Point 3, I am against the Chinese occupation of Tibet, just as much as I am against the Indian and Pakistani occupation of Jammu and Kashmir. I think the people of Tibet and Jammu and Kashmir (two neighbouring territories) could theoretically leave as peaceful neighbours if they did not have to deal with such long standing and violent military occupations. If that were to happen, I think life would be much better for all of us in Asia. Maybe, we would not have such huge, ugly military forces in India, Pakistan and China. Maybe the governements of India, Pakistan and China could be persuaded to create a Nuclear Weapons Free Asia. Maybe you would write as many emails as you do (I notice you have written only 4045 mails - four thousand and forty five mails on a forum on the NDTV website - http://ndtv.com/mb/userprofile.asp?username=radhikarajen ) to ensure that this happens. But so far I have only seen 4,045 mails from you on the NDTV website. I am sure you could do better than that and write at least 10,000 more mails on the NDTV website urging the governments of India, Pakistan and China to disarm, and to free Tibet and Jammu and Kashmir. Maybe you will be in the Guinness book of Records by doing that, maybe you will get the Nobel Prize for Peace as an online peace activist. Who knows, maybe, because of your efforts we could even think of what it would be like to even not have a military. Imagine, no more having to watch that long and boring parage on 26th January (Republic Day), time for picnics and football matches instead. And maybe then we wont need Sama, Dama, Danda, Bhed either as instruments of power and control. I think it will be a lot of fun. Dont you? There will be peace, no war, no terrorism, no state terrorism. Really, Dont you think that would be a good idea? So much money could be spent on real needs - on housing, food and medicine, on education, on raising the standard of life for all South Asian, on excellent Sanskrit univerities, on excellent Arabic and Persian and Pali academies, excellent Mathematics schools, wonderful hospitals, art, culture, music, basic scientific research, solar energy, wind farms, alternative fuels, cheap computers, good software, gardens, fish, organic vegetables, good cooking lessons for all Indian men, wine, mohua, tari, cchang, tea, coffee, libraries and not on guns and missiles and spies and lies. Dont you think, Dhatri ji, I mean Radhikarajen ji, we would all deserve it. All of us, and you most of all. Think what peace of mind you wil have. Think how well you will sleep. Think how much yoga and pranayam you will be able to do. Think about it. But for it to happen, the people of Jammu and Kashmir, and the people of Tibet will have to decide for themselves whom they want to be ruled by and the people of Balochistan and Manipur and Nagalim and who knowa where else, they will also have to decide for themselves without the help of Indian and Pakistani and Chinese soldiers and policemen. They will all have to be in a position where they can freely, peacefully and openly decide who they should be ruled by, And if they do not want to be ruled by Indians, Paksitanis and Chinese governments. Then, I think as reasonable people, you, me, all of us, should learn to live with them, and the Chinese and the Pakistanis as good neighbours, we should visit them, borrow sugar from them, gossip with them, quarrel with them, fall in love with them, get drunk with the, go grow old with them - just like sane good neighbours do. just as we have learnt to live with Afghans, Iranians, Indonesians, Burmese, Bangladeshis (ok there are some problems there) , Sri Lankans (hmm some problems there also) , Maldivians, Thais, Cambodian and Vietnamese people. They would complain about their government, we would complain about ours, and we would all be good friends. And I hope we can all convince all the governments that there should be no visas. Pilgrims, tourists, scholars, traders, retired people, students, artists, travelling salesmen, hakims and vaids, Kabuiliwallas, anyone at all should be free to travel all over Asia, without visas. We should have Pakistani people as colleagues in our offices, our children should be working in Pakistan and in a free Jammu and Kashmir, and Tibetans should bee teaching in China and so on and so forth. You can construct any scenario you want. I think it is very easily possible. A free Asia full of free people who are not at war with each other, and whose governments obey their people and do not try to dominate each other. Won't you agree with me, Radhikarajen ji, I am sorry I cannot answer points 2, 4 and 5 as my knowledge on those matters is limited. warm regards Shuddha we wi wrote: > Suddha, > > If you are a true peace keeper, then you would have raised questions against china when they > > 1) conducted Nucler tests > 2) deceived late Nehru under the Panchasheel > 3)Occupied Tibet > 4)Backing Pakistan to do whatever nonsense > if not > 5) Communists ruling West Bengal under democracy umberilla > > > Since 4th B.C, India has been attacked,ransacked and deceived by Invaders. The same way Communists can rule India under democracy. We have no objection. > > As per your mail I understood that there should not be any government that can rule India and empower it. > > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total > agreement with Pawan Durani. So, I thought I would break my silence. > Thank you Pawan for the links that you have sent. > > I think that the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project is indeed a blueprint > for the unfolding of a human tragedy and an ecological disaster. And I > think it ranks along with the Narmada Dam Project as a plan that is > deeply inimical to the interests and livelihoods of the people who will > be affected by it most, namely local fisher folk (for whom the region is > an age old natural fishing commons). > > I see no reason why ancient fishing practices and the delicate natural > ecology of the region should have to be disrupted just so that > Capitalism (in the form of ships carrying containers) and the Indian > Navy's ships can gain a few hours while crossing from the west to the > east coast of India. If for all these centures, ships have had to round > the southern tip of Sri Lanka to move from the Arabian sea to the Bay of > Bengal, and traverse the waters of the Indian Ocean region, I do not see > why then the livelihoods of the inhabitants of the region have to be > suddenly sacrified for them to be able to move faster.I see absolutely > nothing wrong in insisting that the ships take the same time that they > have always taken? > > However, I have also watched worthies from the Bharatiya Janata Party, > especially, Shri Murli Manohar Joshi, present their 'alternative' > project for the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project over the last few days > on television - which is to cut a canal through the southern tip of the > Deccan peninsula. And I think that proposal is just as much of a > potential human and ecological disaster as the disruption of the > Sethusamudram region. So the new found 'greening' of the BJP, needs to > be understood for what it is. Yet another recipe for the displacement of > people and the violent disruption of the landscape, on the same scale as > Sardar Sarovar project and the proposed scheme to link rivers that was > the pet project of the esteeemed erstwhile president of the Indian republic. > > I would like to point readers on the list to consider the tragic > histories of Panama (a state, now a narco-republic, carved out in order > to dig a canal) and the Suez canal (over which at least one major > military conflict - the Suez crisis of 1956 erupted. I have no doubt > that The BJP's recently found enthusiasm for cutting a canal through > Southern India will no doubt create 'swadeshi' versions of > narco-republicanism, and aggressive military posturing a la Panama and Suez. > > Also, on a parting note, let us not forget the decision by successive > governments, controlled by the Congress or led by the BJP, that did not > have any qualms about violating the delicate ecology of the Thar desert > with Nuclear explostions, or completely destroying the equally delicate > Himalayan glacial environment of Siachen in the part of Jammu and > Kashmir occupied by India, by stationing troops, heavy artillery and > continuing what must be one of the most tragic, bizarre, violent and > wasteful military engagements with landscape in the history of the > modern world. > > So, yes let us all demand that the Sethusamudram region be left alone, > let us demand that no more nuclear explosions or tests ever take place > in the Thar desert or anywhere in the landmass of all of South Asia, or > in the Lop Nor plateau in Tibet, and let us demand also a unilateral > ceasefire and troop withdrawal from Siachen, and let us demand immediate > cessation of the Sardar Saroval Project on the river Narmada and that > the river linking project be abandoned. I would be absolutely willing to > assent to all these demands, and while doing so, I would also demand > that those who took the decisions to conduct Nuclear Tests in Pokhran in > India (in 1974 and in 1998) and in the Chagai Hills in Pakistan (in > 1998) or on the Lop Nor plateau in Tiber offer uconditional apologies to > the people of India, Pakistan and Tibet (and to all peoples in Asia) for > the serious damage that these tests caused to the ecology of South and > Central Asia. > > I sincerely hope that all of you will agree with me. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > >>http://tamilinfoservice.com/manitham/environment/sscp/article/4.htm >> >>http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/tamilnadu/050404sethu.htm >> >>http://www.greensl.net/campaigns003.php >> >>http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/a-blunder-called-sethusamudram/ >> >> >>Where are all those who had been talking about ecological disaster during >>Narmada Dam project ? Why are they silent ? Where are the activists and >>the film makers ? >> >>I do understand their problems and the "compulsions". >> >>God Bless ! >>_________________________________________ >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>Critiques & Collaborations >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 18:07:30 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 05:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] UN-SUBSCRIBE In-Reply-To: <46EE6BF8.2090003@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <349718.68952.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All, CC was the practice that everybody following and no body adviced anybody. Any way I will be un-subscribing from SARAI. It is a great pleasure to read the members and their views on various topics. Hope you all continue with the words LIPTA,MATRA and ANIMESHI. I thank everybody for giving me an opportunity to write here and I express my deep sorrow over my all known/unknown mistakes that hurts you if any. In particular I thank the moderator of SARAI. Wishing you all peace and more knowledge with good health. Jai Hind, Your Truly, Dhatri. Tapas Ray wrote: Could the preaching stop, please? This list is probably not an appropriate forum for expounding on the Gita or Bible or Quran or Talmud or what have you. It is for the honing of one's own reason on the other's reason and vice versa, and the emergence of a common understanding of life through this process. Faith, which is dogma and not reason, has no place in this scheme. Tapas we wi wrote: > Nice Reply. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Dear all, > it is common sense that tell us that as a child is born, mother is truth, father is faith, as the child grows, it gets all the trappings of faith, when child is born it does not get faith, it is told by its mother, that some male is his / her father, it is faith. So also in society, where knowledge ends, faith commences. > Gita for me is the way of life far above the religious scriptures, as it shows the way of life, secrets of knowledge where we get answers to questions that arise in our intellect about all that is material, intellectual and spiritual. It does not distinguish the humans on "caste' as we see the castes today, it talks of work or vocation of an individual in society and his duties to society and exhorts him to do his work in society and serve the society without waiting for the fruits of his good work, submit all the actions to the supreme soul, so that his soul identifies itself with supreme soul that is GOD, called by any name, Shiva, Ram, Christ or Allah. As the names are only by choice of the faithful to their percieved GOD, who is one for all humanity, living beings in form or in Sakara roop, or in Nirvikara swaroop a super soul of all the souls, all actions have reactions, some immediate, some menifest, some delayed reactions to every action in society. > The day, all humans understand their role in society to live life with compassion and affection to all in society, > be responsible and responsive to others in society and identify their interest with that of society, rise above greed and selfish interests, all in society will have better life, as ills in society will lose out to good in society. Good of the individuals in society is GOD to all in society. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: we wi > Date: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:11 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > To: Partha Dasgupta > > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, readerlist , Jeebesh Bagchi > >> Dear Partha, >> >> >> If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal >> issues, I should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains >> me. As per my knowledge SARAI reader list voice, >> reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting >> BHAGAVATGEETA, >> sadrsam cestate svasyah >> prakrter jnanavan api >> prakrtim yanti bhutani >> nigrahah kim karisyati >> --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Sep 17 18:11:01 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:11:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <46EE1118.4060608@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> <46EE1118.4060608@sarai.net> Message-ID: <9c06aab30709170541s176f09a6pf2a15257cfc79e30@mail.gmail.com> I do, Shuddha. Don't you, Pawan? The BJP-VHP-RSS joint family can't appropriate ecological concerns when it comes to Sethusundaram, and refuse to answer them when it comes to the Hindu Bomb. Surely Pawan, you condemn such hypocrisy? best shivam On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > Thank you for your appreciation of my concern. Since I do not share your > faith, I cannot take that into consideration in my assessment of the > Sethusamudran Project. But since I do share your ecological, > developmental and financial concerns, I fully agree with you that the > Sethusamudran Project is going to be a disaster. > > Now since you share my ecological, financial and developmental concerns > (and whether or not you do share my attitude to questions of faith, on > which we can agree to disagree) I do hope you will share in my > condemnation of the Nuclear Tests in Pokhran, the military occupation of > the Siachen glacier, the Narmada Dam and the 'canalization' plan > proposed by the Bharatiya Janata Party as an alternative to the > Sethusamduran Project. Because these are and have been all ecological, > developmental and financial disasters. > > You do, don't you? > > regards > > Shuddha (not Gargi) > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Shuddha , > > > > Thank you for your concern on Sethu Samudram , besides ecological > disaster > > it is a matter of faith as well. > > > > Even the developemnt is not going to be of major use, its a financial > > disaster. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > On 9/17/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > >>Hi, > >> > >>As an aside, had an offline chat with Pawan when he mentioned that he > >>plans to plant a 1000 trees - something so simple yet so important that > I > >>didn't even remember it. > >> > >>The basics are simple steps we can take that will make a difference in > the > >>long run. And yes, I do agree that our shattered environment (including > the > >>Sethusamudram project) needs a serious rethink as to where the ecology > is > >>going. > >> > >>Rgds, Partha > >>.................. > >> > >> On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Dear All, > >>> > >>>This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total > >>>agreement with Pawan Durani. So, I thought I would break my silence. > >>>Thank you Pawan for the links that you have sent. > >>> > >>>I think that the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project is indeed a blueprint > >>>for the unfolding of a human tragedy and an ecological disaster. And I > >>>think it ranks along with the Narmada Dam Project as a plan that is > >>>deeply inimical to the interests and livelihoods of the people who will > >>>be affected by it most, namely local fisher folk (for whom the region > is > >>>an age old natural fishing commons). > >>> > >>>I see no reason why ancient fishing practices and the delicate natural > >>>ecology of the region should have to be disrupted just so that > >>>Capitalism (in the form of ships carrying containers) and the Indian > >>>Navy's ships can gain a few hours while crossing from the west to the > >>>east coast of India. If for all these centures, ships have had to round > >>>the southern tip of Sri Lanka to move from the Arabian sea to the Bay > of > >>>Bengal, and traverse the waters of the Indian Ocean region, I do not > see > >>> why then the livelihoods of the inhabitants of the region have to be > >>> suddenly sacrified for them to be able to move faster.I see > absolutely > >>>nothing wrong in insisting that the ships take the same time that they > >>>have always taken? > >>> > >>>However, I have also watched worthies from the Bharatiya Janata Party, > >>>especially, Shri Murli Manohar Joshi, present their 'alternative' > >>>project for the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project over the last few days > >>>on television - which is to cut a canal through the southern tip of the > >>>Deccan peninsula. And I think that proposal is just as much of a > >>>potential human and ecological disaster as the disruption of the > >>>Sethusamudram region. So the new found 'greening' of the BJP, needs to > >>>be understood for what it is. Yet another recipe for the displacement > of > >>>people and the violent disruption of the landscape, on the same scale > as > >>>Sardar Sarovar project and the proposed scheme to link rivers that was > >>>the pet project of the esteeemed erstwhile president of the Indian > >>>republic. > >>> > >>>I would like to point readers on the list to consider the tragic > >>>histories of Panama (a state, now a narco-republic, carved out in order > >>>to dig a canal) and the Suez canal (over which at least one major > >>>military conflict - the Suez crisis of 1956 erupted. I have no doubt > >>>that The BJP's recently found enthusiasm for cutting a canal through > >>>Southern India will no doubt create 'swadeshi' versions of > >>>narco-republicanism, and aggressive military posturing a la Panama and > >>>Suez. > >>> > >>>Also, on a parting note, let us not forget the decision by successive > >>>governments, controlled by the Congress or led by the BJP, that did not > >>>have any qualms about violating the delicate ecology of the Thar desert > >>>with Nuclear explostions, or completely destroying the equally delicate > >>>Himalayan glacial environment of Siachen in the part of Jammu and > >>>Kashmir occupied by India, by stationing troops, heavy artillery and > >>>continuing what must be one of the most tragic, bizarre, violent and > >>>wasteful military engagements with landscape in the history of the > >>>modern world. > >>> > >>>So, yes let us all demand that the Sethusamudram region be left alone, > >>>let us demand that no more nuclear explosions or tests ever take place > >>>in the Thar desert or anywhere in the landmass of all of South Asia, or > >>>in the Lop Nor plateau in Tibet, and let us demand also a unilateral > >>>ceasefire and troop withdrawal from Siachen, and let us demand > immediate > >>>cessation of the Sardar Saroval Project on the river Narmada and that > >>>the river linking project be abandoned. I would be absolutely willing > to > >>>assent to all these demands, and while doing so, I would also demand > >>>that those who took the decisions to conduct Nuclear Tests in Pokhran > in > >>> > >>>India (in 1974 and in 1998) and in the Chagai Hills in Pakistan (in > >>>1998) or on the Lop Nor plateau in Tiber offer uconditional apologies > to > >>>the people of India, Pakistan and Tibet (and to all peoples in Asia) > for > >>> > >>>the serious damage that these tests caused to the ecology of South and > >>>Central Asia. > >>> > >>>I sincerely hope that all of you will agree with me. > >>> > >>>regards > >>> > >>>Shuddha > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Pawan Durani wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>http://tamilinfoservice.com/manitham/environment/sscp/article/4.htm > >>>> > >>>>http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/tamilnadu/050404sethu.htm > >>>> > >>>>http://www.greensl.net/campaigns003.php > >>>> > >>>>http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/a-blunder-called-sethusamudram/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>Where are all those who had been talking about ecological disaster > >>> > >>>during > >>> > >>>>Narmada Dam project ? Why are they silent ? Where are the > >>> > >>>activists and > >>> > >>>>the film makers ? > >>>> > >>>>I do understand their problems and the "compulsions". > >>>> > >>>>God Bless ! > >>>>_________________________________________ > >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >>>_________________________________________ > >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>Critiques & Collaborations > >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- ------------------------------------------------------ Shivam Vij 9871845627 www.shivamvij.com mail at shivamvij.com Correspondent, Tehelka M-76, 2nd Floor, M-Block Market Greater Kailash II, New Delhi 110048 Tel/Fax: 91-11-41638750-55 www.tehelka.com shivam at tehelka.com From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 17 18:36:25 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:36:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UN-SUBSCRIBE In-Reply-To: <349718.68952.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <349718.68952.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46EE7BD1.1030003@sarai.net> Dear Dhatri ji, Farewell, Best Shuddha we wi wrote: > Dear All, > > CC was the practice that everybody following and no body adviced anybody. Any way I will be un-subscribing from SARAI. It is a great pleasure to read the members and their views on various topics. Hope you all continue with the words LIPTA,MATRA and ANIMESHI. > > I thank everybody for giving me an opportunity to write here and I express my deep sorrow over my all known/unknown mistakes that hurts you if any. In particular I thank the moderator of SARAI. Wishing you all peace and more knowledge with good health. > > Jai Hind, > Your Truly, > Dhatri. > > Tapas Ray wrote: > Could the preaching stop, please? This list is probably not an > appropriate forum for expounding on the Gita or Bible or Quran or Talmud > or what have you. It is for the honing of one's own reason on the > other's reason and vice versa, and the emergence of a common > understanding of life through this process. Faith, which is dogma and > not reason, has no place in this scheme. > > Tapas > > > we wi wrote: > >>Nice Reply. >> >>Regards, >>Dhatri. >> >>radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >>Dear all, >>it is common sense that tell us that as a child is born, mother is truth, father is faith, as the child grows, it gets all the trappings of faith, when child is born it does not get faith, it is told by its mother, that some male is his / her father, it is faith. So also in society, where knowledge ends, faith commences. >>Gita for me is the way of life far above the religious scriptures, as it shows the way of life, secrets of knowledge where we get answers to questions that arise in our intellect about all that is material, intellectual and spiritual. It does not distinguish the humans on "caste' as we see the castes today, it talks of work or vocation of an individual in society and his duties to society and exhorts him to do his work in society and serve the society without waiting for the fruits of his good work, submit all the actions to the supreme soul, so that his soul identifies itself with supreme soul that is GOD, called by any name, Shiva, Ram, Christ or Allah. As the names are only by choice of the faithful to their percieved GOD, who is one for all humanity, living beings in form or in Sakara roop, or in Nirvikara swaroop a super soul of all the souls, all actions have reactions, some immediate, some menifest, some delayed reactions to every action in society. >>The day, all humans understand their role in society to live life with compassion and affection to all in society, >>be responsible and responsive to others in society and identify their interest with that of society, rise above greed and selfish interests, all in society will have better life, as ills in society will lose out to good in society. Good of the individuals in society is GOD to all in society. >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: we wi >>Date: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:11 pm >>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg >>To: Partha Dasgupta >> >>Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, readerlist , Jeebesh Bagchi >> >> >>>Dear Partha, >>> >>> >>>If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal >>>issues, I should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains >>>me. As per my knowledge SARAI reader list voice, >>>reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting >>>BHAGAVATGEETA, >>>sadrsam cestate svasyah >>>prakrter jnanavan api >>>prakrtim yanti bhutani >>>nigrahah kim karisyati >>> > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 18:37:28 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <46EE7275.203@sarai.net> Message-ID: <590985.2667.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddhabrata Sengupta, First,Dhatri is me and radhikarajen is another person. I just found radhika message interesting while googling, and just reused that for quote. And next as per your >>Really, Dont you think that would be a good idea? So much money could >>be spent on real needs - on housing, food and medicine, on education, on >>raising the standard of life for all South Asian, on excellent Sanskrit >>univerities, on excellent Arabic and Persian and Pali academies, >>excellent Mathematics schools, wonderful hospitals, art, culture, >>music, basic scientific research, solar energy, wind farms, alternative fuels, >>cheap computers, good software, gardens, fish, organic vegetables, >>good cooking lessons for all Indian men, wine, mohua, tari, cchang, >>tea, coffee, libraries and not on guns and missiles and spies and lies. Dont >>you think, Dhatri ji, I mean Radhikarajen ji, we would all deserve it. >>All of us, and you most of all. Think what peace of mind you wil have. >>Think how well you will sleep. Think how much yoga and pranayam you >> will be able to do. If no governent required Who will do all the above? Perhaps this will be my last quote for which my father used to do at the sankalp of his daily prayer. Not only he but this is the most common thing come in sankalp for any incident in the India "JAMBU DWEEPE, BHARATA VASRSHE, BHARATA KHANDE MERU ...." Forget Afghans, Iranians, Indonesians,Maldivians, Thais, Cambodian and Vietnamese Countries. We are least concerned about them but As far as India is concerned despite of lot of headaches and problems people are adjusting with lifes and governents and living happily. So as you. I dont know where is this MERU lOCATED, you better try to find out that if you can. The states(with Occupied terrotaries by Pakistan,China) whatever you mentioned to be freed, are part and parcel of India since unknown ages. As the 50 states in USA are inseperable and undivided by any force in the world, so as the India. No evil force can break this. Regards, Dhatri. Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: Dear Radhikarajen (or is it we wi) ji, My post on the Sethusamudram issue, does mention the Chinese nuclear tests in the Lop Nor Plauteau in Tibet, and if you had read till the end, I urge us all to ask the Chinese government to apologize to the people of Central Asia (including Tibet) for these tests and the disastrous effects they have had on the fragile ecology of Tibet, just as I have said everyone worried about the ecology of South Asia should ask for similar apologies from the Indian and Pakistani governments for Pokhran I and II and the Chagai Hills Tests. And as for Point 3, I am against the Chinese occupation of Tibet, just as much as I am against the Indian and Pakistani occupation of Jammu and Kashmir. I think the people of Tibet and Jammu and Kashmir (two neighbouring territories) could theoretically leave as peaceful neighbours if they did not have to deal with such long standing and violent military occupations. If that were to happen, I think life would be much better for all of us in Asia. Maybe, we would not have such huge, ugly military forces in India, Pakistan and China. Maybe the governements of India, Pakistan and China could be persuaded to create a Nuclear Weapons Free Asia. Maybe you would write as many emails as you do (I notice you have written only 4045 mails - four thousand and forty five mails on a forum on the NDTV website - http://ndtv.com/mb/userprofile.asp?username=radhikarajen ) to ensure that this happens. But so far I have only seen 4,045 mails from you on the NDTV website. I am sure you could do better than that and write at least 10,000 more mails on the NDTV website urging the governments of India, Pakistan and China to disarm, and to free Tibet and Jammu and Kashmir. Maybe you will be in the Guinness book of Records by doing that, maybe you will get the Nobel Prize for Peace as an online peace activist. Who knows, maybe, because of your efforts we could even think of what it would be like to even not have a military. Imagine, no more having to watch that long and boring parage on 26th January (Republic Day), time for picnics and football matches instead. And maybe then we wont need Sama, Dama, Danda, Bhed either as instruments of power and control. I think it will be a lot of fun. Dont you? There will be peace, no war, no terrorism, no state terrorism. Really, Dont you think that would be a good idea? So much money could be spent on real needs - on housing, food and medicine, on education, on raising the standard of life for all South Asian, on excellent Sanskrit univerities, on excellent Arabic and Persian and Pali academies, excellent Mathematics schools, wonderful hospitals, art, culture, music, basic scientific research, solar energy, wind farms, alternative fuels, cheap computers, good software, gardens, fish, organic vegetables, good cooking lessons for all Indian men, wine, mohua, tari, cchang, tea, coffee, libraries and not on guns and missiles and spies and lies. Dont you think, Dhatri ji, I mean Radhikarajen ji, we would all deserve it. All of us, and you most of all. Think what peace of mind you wil have. Think how well you will sleep. Think how much yoga and pranayam you will be able to do. Think about it. But for it to happen, the people of Jammu and Kashmir, and the people of Tibet will have to decide for themselves whom they want to be ruled by and the people of Balochistan and Manipur and Nagalim and who knowa where else, they will also have to decide for themselves without the help of Indian and Pakistani and Chinese soldiers and policemen. They will all have to be in a position where they can freely, peacefully and openly decide who they should be ruled by, And if they do not want to be ruled by Indians, Paksitanis and Chinese governments. Then, I think as reasonable people, you, me, all of us, should learn to live with them, and the Chinese and the Pakistanis as good neighbours, we should visit them, borrow sugar from them, gossip with them, quarrel with them, fall in love with them, get drunk with the, go grow old with them - just like sane good neighbours do. just as we have learnt to live with Afghans, Iranians, Indonesians, Burmese, Bangladeshis (ok there are some problems there) , Sri Lankans (hmm some problems there also) , Maldivians, Thais, Cambodian and Vietnamese people. They would complain about their government, we would complain about ours, and we would all be good friends. And I hope we can all convince all the governments that there should be no visas. Pilgrims, tourists, scholars, traders, retired people, students, artists, travelling salesmen, hakims and vaids, Kabuiliwallas, anyone at all should be free to travel all over Asia, without visas. We should have Pakistani people as colleagues in our offices, our children should be working in Pakistan and in a free Jammu and Kashmir, and Tibetans should bee teaching in China and so on and so forth. You can construct any scenario you want. I think it is very easily possible. A free Asia full of free people who are not at war with each other, and whose governments obey their people and do not try to dominate each other. Won't you agree with me, Radhikarajen ji, I am sorry I cannot answer points 2, 4 and 5 as my knowledge on those matters is limited. warm regards Shuddha we wi wrote: > Suddha, > > If you are a true peace keeper, then you would have raised questions against china when they > > 1) conducted Nucler tests > 2) deceived late Nehru under the Panchasheel > 3)Occupied Tibet > 4)Backing Pakistan to do whatever nonsense > if not > 5) Communists ruling West Bengal under democracy umberilla > > > Since 4th B.C, India has been attacked,ransacked and deceived by Invaders. The same way Communists can rule India under democracy. We have no objection. > > As per your mail I understood that there should not be any government that can rule India and empower it. > > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total > agreement with Pawan Durani. So, I thought I would break my silence. > Thank you Pawan for the links that you have sent. > > I think that the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project is indeed a blueprint > for the unfolding of a human tragedy and an ecological disaster. And I > think it ranks along with the Narmada Dam Project as a plan that is > deeply inimical to the interests and livelihoods of the people who will > be affected by it most, namely local fisher folk (for whom the region is > an age old natural fishing commons). > > I see no reason why ancient fishing practices and the delicate natural > ecology of the region should have to be disrupted just so that > Capitalism (in the form of ships carrying containers) and the Indian > Navy's ships can gain a few hours while crossing from the west to the > east coast of India. If for all these centures, ships have had to round > the southern tip of Sri Lanka to move from the Arabian sea to the Bay of > Bengal, and traverse the waters of the Indian Ocean region, I do not see > why then the livelihoods of the inhabitants of the region have to be > suddenly sacrified for them to be able to move faster.I see absolutely > nothing wrong in insisting that the ships take the same time that they > have always taken? > > However, I have also watched worthies from the Bharatiya Janata Party, > especially, Shri Murli Manohar Joshi, present their 'alternative' > project for the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project over the last few days > on television - which is to cut a canal through the southern tip of the > Deccan peninsula. And I think that proposal is just as much of a > potential human and ecological disaster as the disruption of the > Sethusamudram region. So the new found 'greening' of the BJP, needs to > be understood for what it is. Yet another recipe for the displacement of > people and the violent disruption of the landscape, on the same scale as > Sardar Sarovar project and the proposed scheme to link rivers that was > the pet project of the esteeemed erstwhile president of the Indian republic. > > I would like to point readers on the list to consider the tragic > histories of Panama (a state, now a narco-republic, carved out in order > to dig a canal) and the Suez canal (over which at least one major > military conflict - the Suez crisis of 1956 erupted. I have no doubt > that The BJP's recently found enthusiasm for cutting a canal through > Southern India will no doubt create 'swadeshi' versions of > narco-republicanism, and aggressive military posturing a la Panama and Suez. > > Also, on a parting note, let us not forget the decision by successive > governments, controlled by the Congress or led by the BJP, that did not > have any qualms about violating the delicate ecology of the Thar desert > with Nuclear explostions, or completely destroying the equally delicate > Himalayan glacial environment of Siachen in the part of Jammu and > Kashmir occupied by India, by stationing troops, heavy artillery and > continuing what must be one of the most tragic, bizarre, violent and > wasteful military engagements with landscape in the history of the > modern world. > > So, yes let us all demand that the Sethusamudram region be left alone, > let us demand that no more nuclear explosions or tests ever take place > in the Thar desert or anywhere in the landmass of all of South Asia, or > in the Lop Nor plateau in Tibet, and let us demand also a unilateral > ceasefire and troop withdrawal from Siachen, and let us demand immediate > cessation of the Sardar Saroval Project on the river Narmada and that > the river linking project be abandoned. I would be absolutely willing to > assent to all these demands, and while doing so, I would also demand > that those who took the decisions to conduct Nuclear Tests in Pokhran in > India (in 1974 and in 1998) and in the Chagai Hills in Pakistan (in > 1998) or on the Lop Nor plateau in Tiber offer uconditional apologies to > the people of India, Pakistan and Tibet (and to all peoples in Asia) for > the serious damage that these tests caused to the ecology of South and > Central Asia. > > I sincerely hope that all of you will agree with me. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > >>http://tamilinfoservice.com/manitham/environment/sscp/article/4.htm >> >>http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/tamilnadu/050404sethu.htm >> >>http://www.greensl.net/campaigns003.php >> >>http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/a-blunder-called-sethusamudram/ >> >> >>Where are all those who had been talking about ecological disaster during >>Narmada Dam project ? Why are they silent ? Where are the activists and >>the film makers ? >> >>I do understand their problems and the "compulsions". >> >>God Bless ! >>_________________________________________ >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>Critiques & Collaborations >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. From parthaekka at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 19:06:18 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:06:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Quieting the Monkey Mind In-Reply-To: <75051.64353.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <32144e990709170332s240e96f4o3b2b73bdded21bcb@mail.gmail.com> <75051.64353.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709170636j32b88baeya393a3b670d80f01@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, Just decided to take this one offline since it's got nothing to do with the Sarai posts, and am communicating (or attempting to) with Dhatri via direct mail. Rgds, Partha On 9/17/07, we wi wrote: > > Dear Partha, > > As SARAI is not your office, my doubts/concerns about your > understanding,logic is nothing to do with SARAI. SARAI can understand > easily that, spoonfeeding is not required for you as you are a father to 3 > children and also IT enabled person. > Regards, > Dhatri. > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > Hi Dhatri, > > a) You are welcome to your pen name, which is more powerful than a gun, > but > wouldn't it make more sense to use the name your family gave you? > > b) Whichever previous questions you wrote to me, do copy paste them > here, and > i'll answer them. > > c) I don't quite understand what you are trying to say about the upper > caste. As I > asked in my earlier post, are you posting in favour of or against > the caste system? > > d) Sure, i'll pray. However, not at any church or temple or... As a > matter of belief, > am against organised religion and do not believe that some other > person has > the right to come between God and me, and tell me what I should > believe. > > Awaiting your mail with whatever queries you feel Tapas Ray helped me > avoid responding to. > > Rgds, Partha > ........................................ > PS: Forgot to mention, since this post is also going from my email > software and not he webmail, it doesn't have my signature > > On 9/17/07, we wi wrote: > > > > Dear Partha, > > > > List will answer you! Mean time What exactly you wish > > me to do? Whatever I write here is some action plans/some future plans if > > acceptable and feasible. Some are cheeky and some serious. > > > > Dhatri is a pen name. A pen is always powerful than any gun. As I > > stated I could not talk about your family matters and so as SARAI. If > > you planned so nicely and fielded them to me, either case you need to write > > a proper reply to my earlier post. But you failed to do so. Simply escaped > > to answer that mail at all and write a post to "TAPAS RAY". > > > > As some body claimed "Upper castes did wrong", then > > 1)you people decide and let the upper caste know. What is dharma and > > what is Adharma? So that Upper caste follow totally. and > > > > 2)Upper caste only enjoy whatever as per your claim? But why so many > > Upper caste people are unable to live normal life in India,as you were > > operating imac at 90s and living either in own or ancestral home with or > > without parents? > > > > 3)If Upper castes only enjoying then Everything should be clean in > > India,like your "White" shirt,"White" BMW/Honda city/Benz car,"White" > > bungalow,"White" marbled nice partitioned Office, or even like your "White" > > colored job and money as it was pre freedom and up-to some level post > > Independence. Is it like that now? Why > > > > Let me bring a point to your notice, With my comments at least > > you did some groundwork/homework before writing to SARAI. This is my > > achievement obviously you must accept it to self if not to SARAI for which > > everybody is a member. > > > > > > So many question to you with a nice good predicate logic, I hope this > > time you will answer them all without confusion and show a path to me and to > > the problems that India has been facing, and to SARAI as well? Then SARAI > > will be closed/shutdown as all problem are resolved because of your > > directions. > > Before answer this I suggest you to do a 5 min prayer either at temple > > or at church. > > > > Don't ask me Protestant Church/Catholic Church? Don't say I don't do > > because i am not concerned or worried ? You are not concerned/worried about > > yourself / child because you worry by visualizing the future( Insecurity). > > Hence I tell you to sit at your home/office just do a prayer that's enough. > > > > > > You do excuse me, in anyway I hurt you. > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > Hi Dhatri, > > > > Just so that I'm clear in my mind, some questions > > > > 1. Does your post signify that we should change the caste based > > hierarchy > > or that we should not? > > > > 2. I certainly agree that crying over 'spilt milk' won't help. > > However, if you have > > an old wound that is troubling you, ignoring it is counter > > productive. At the > > end of the day, everything boils down to the issue that if it is a > > healing scab, > > then let it be - however, if it is a fracture or something more > > serious, then it > > needs medical attention. > > > > 3. Besides monkeys, jihad and changing street names, what was the > > point of this post. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ................ > > > > On 9/16/07, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > "The monkey mind jumps from thought to thought like a monkey jumps > > > from tree to tree. Rather than existing in the present moment, the monkey > > > mind focuses on one thought after another, and these thoughts distract us > > > from exisiting in the present, which is one of the goals of yoga. Sitting > > > in meditation is a good way to see the monkey mind in its natural habitat. > > > Just sitting still and clearing the mind is so challenging. You observe one > > > thought popping up, and another, and another. This is inevitable, especially > > > when you are getting started. The trick is to learn to observe the thoughts > > > without engaging in them. An analogy I like is to see the mind as the sky > > > and the thoughts like clouds passing through. Whether you are meditating > > > or practicing asanas, returning your attention again and again to the breath > > > will always help you detach from the thoughts and return to the present > > > moment. Each inhale and exhale exists only in the present. When you are > > > doing asanas, remind > > > yourself to use Ocean Breathing (Ujjayi) each time you catch yourself > > > thinking. " > > > > > > As the monkey handled in better way in the above, so as the > > > perpetrators and their actions. Atricities in the name of jihad will never > > > be treated as simple childish moves and so as the shouters. Caste based > > > system is there in India, like wise Racism in the rest of the > > > world. Fighting for them is no way usefull except to turn the things > > > perpetrators favour to make things more worsen. Start thinking to build > > > unique nation INDIA and participate constructively in its development for > > > the sake of all Indians. Changing place names,killing people,wiping out > > > sanskrit universities, lamenting monuments wont help in any way. > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user > > > panel and lay it on us. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! > > > > > ------------------------------ > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest > showson Yahoo! TV. > > From monica at sarai.net Mon Sep 17 19:11:10 2007 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:11:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Emails to individuals In-Reply-To: <20070917140315.p5kysozg0s80840s@imp4.free.fr> References: <532372.31915.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <20070917140315.p5kysozg0s80840s@imp4.free.fr> Message-ID: <8E3691B0-D155-40C8-809F-94A5C8D0C09A@sarai.net> Dear All, There is an increasing tendency on the list where people are holding everyone ransom to mails that are only meant for each other, and we are seeing some spectacular displays of flaming. If personal communication mails are constantly posted from any address to the list, we will have to opt for un-subscribing that email address from the list. Please maintain basic list-serv protocol. best List Admin Monica Narula Raqs Sarai-CSDS 29 Rajpur Road Delhi 110 054 www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 19:37:11 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] On Censorship (Re Vishal's enquiries) In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709150940r35023ec3j3ef7ed707be0c01c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <873179.39540.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Vishal I have changed the Subject Line. I am sure you will understand why. Your name has been put so that it does not escape your attention. Will be dropped if this dialogue goes on. 1. You wrote """""That way depending upon "who" is in power, each time a different standard would be applied"""" Yes you are right, that could happen. It was and still is easily done in cases when the governance is Monarchical, Dictatorial etc, where the "power" is absolute and brooks no disagreements. In societies that have some semblance of the people having a say in who should govern them, it is not so easily done especially if the "changes in standards" are drastic. Yet, it could happen for example in India for the period that a particular political party is in power say for a 5 year tenure, unless it were "stayed" by means of a Legal challenge. If the "change in standard" is unacceptable to the people and evokes strong resentment, it could become the catalyst for a "change" of the governing political party. The new ones in "power" might then revert to the earlier standards in acknowledgment of peoples' strong feelings. Passage of time also brings in "change of standards". For any particular area if you froze frames of today and a particular time in the past, stark differences would be seen. Sometimes the differences are amazing when it comes to expecting that the past would be "retrograde" and the future of that past would have been "progressive". Subjectivity expected. 2. The "who" cannot be an individual because the individual does not have the right to decide for all the people. The individual can, will and should make known his/her opinion over what the "standards" for the collective should be. The individual practices self-regulation and self-censorship. It happens all the time whether it is in private conversation, corporate communication, public discourse or in creative expression through song, literature, film/video, theater, painting, sculpture, poster etc. We often curb our basic instincts and urges of "true to myself" and "true to my art" expression. 3. You (probably) have a question for me in "''''' And that brings us to:"what processes", "what areas" and "what evaluations" are to be considered??"""" My generalised comments were made over another generalised comment that I called a "guiding principle". It will be impossible for me touch upon alllllllll aspects contained in your question. At the very least I would have to talk about the Constituent Assembly, the Constitution, the Chapters of the Constitution and the "Rights and Responsibilities" contained therein, the "inviolates" and "amendables" in the Constitution, the Laws derived from the Constitution, the role of the Legislature; Executive; Judiciary and so on and on and on and on. I will not. As much a matter of my lack of competencies as it is of time and space. Please do read the Constitution of India (if you are a citizen of India and have not done so). It is not too daunting a task especially if you get the measure of rollerblading over the "whereofs" and "wheretos" and "thereofs" and "theretos". 4. Your phrase of "censoring a certain thing" is too generalised both in terms of the suggested implications as well as the areas. I could not possibly deal with it in it's entirety. There is for example a Censor Board for "films" which is basically a certifying Institution regulating what film they think is suitable for which age group. They may suggest cuts to the film-maker. A "totally not fit for exhibition film" (I do not remember what the exact term is) is a rarity if you consider the number of films that are put up for Certification. The Censor Board is supposed to be an autonomous body once it is constituted. There is enough evidence to suggest that it is not and is both interfered with and influenced/pressured. The Film Industry has been pressing for self-regulation Such Self-Regulatory norms and bodies do exist for the "Advertising Agencies" and the "Press"for example. Not very effective though in my opinion. Television does not have but should (in my opinion) have such regulatory norms especially when it comes to "child viewership". That is not enough though. For it to be effective "parental locks" should be mandatory on all Television sets. Ah! but being non-literate will be a problem for reading manuals and programming the "controls". The Web/Internet is another area where regulatory norms have crept in and will continue to do so. In India for example a few websites have been "blocked". In Islamic countries "filters" for "words" are used to "block" websites that may have objectionable content linked presumably with a particular word. China has reached an understanding of sorts with Google. Youtube had to remove content after protests. India like any other country (in my opinion) will establish regulatory norms/processes and arrangements in the future. 5. The particular film you mention has not (to the best of my knowledge) been put up for Certification. If I had a say, I would apply the (by now notorious) "Guiding Principles". That apart MY particular comments in connection with THAT particular film have been made in past (when you were very much a part of this List). If you missed them, you are most welcome to go over them. Take care Kshmendra Kaul Vishal Rawlley wrote: Dear KK, You said: Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" But its not about "who" should decide. That way depending upon "who" is in power, each time a different standard would be applied. The "who" should therefore be the individual, and each should decide for themselves. But that does not mean that individuals can do whatever the decide to. There are some extreme and rare cases where restraint is necessary. And that brings us to:"what processes", "what areas" and "what evaluations" are to be considered?? Shuddha has very clearly elaborated on each and thus explained his position. He is not saying that everything should be allowed. "If it were non fiction, and non consensual [sexual act], then I would advocate strict censorship,..." he says - to give an example. Now according to his criteria, Jashn-e-Azadi is not such an extreme case, as the example he cites, so regardless of whether he likes the film or not, agrees with it or not, he feels it should not be censored. Now can you give your reasons for censoring a certain thing? What would you censor and why? Should Jashn-e-Azadi be censored, and if so why? Please state your case. Thank you. -Vishal On 9/15/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Shuddhabrata Your mail is addressed to me as an individual and therefore I shall equally courteously respond. Soon after though, in another mail you revert to "let us bunch them together" routine. It is interesting that some people who celebrate an individual's freedoms and thereby an individual's identity in this "intellectual community" should so readily chorus the "I see a mob, I see a mob, attack the mob" shouts irrespective of how varied the opinions, positions and arguments might be. Pick up one issue over which there might be strong disagreements and on that basis dismiss all else about anyone who might even remotely suggest himself/herself not subscribing to your views on any topic. Demonise them. No good should be seen in the devils by anyone, so cloud the scene with "They are a mob; They are a mob; Everyone must attack the mob". It was interesting to see someone like Rahul Asthana also (who in my opinion is one of the "decent" correspondents on this list) get clubbed (not by you) with the "mob" because he might have disagreed over some issue. "Rahul is a part of them, Rahul is a part of the mob, beware, you must see Rahul as part of the mob". Amusing. I see all of this as "intellectual cowardice" and a lack of "intellectual ethics". Those who find it convenient to see a "mob" end up becoming a "mob". It is sad because it includes some extremely sharp and bright intellect. Individual intellect however always sacrifices itself to the psyche of the "mob". Let me come to what your mail was essentially about. - Naeem asked a question in the room - I did not see Naeem receiving an answer in the room - Shuddha says he answered Naeem in private and explains why he did so - No one in the room saw Naeem receive an answer in public for a question he asked in public - As far as any member (including me) of the room is concerned, Naeem did not receive an answer. So Shuddha, there is no assumption on my part as far as that domain is concerned where the question was asked and where no answer was given. I am just a simple minded Horatio of simple philosophies of the apparent. Actually Shuddha, you of all the people should be able to appreciate that. I remember the rather facile but the distinctinctness and separateness with which you sought to aggressively define "public" and "private" spaces. I wonder now who should be the candidate for your threatening admonition of "watch it" and the pomposity in "...makes you (more than occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish." Shuddha your comment about me "Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions" might sound very telling but does not make me cringe (if it was meant to) simply because I was very interested in seeing what answers Naeem would receive. For me, the answers to that question from a "neutral" observer would only add perspectives to the discussion about "what" or "are there any at all" limits that can be considered for "individual" or "collective" freedom of expression. Thank you Shuddha for posting your response to Naeem. I saw the most significant part of your response in your words: """""" In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I would be willing to endorse the censorship of. My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people from watching them. If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above.""""""" You have very clearly given the examples and the reasoning. You have for one set of cases used the evaluating principle of "...... there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" Could hardly be put better. So, although both "regulation" and "censorship" may be restrictive of the individual's right to freedom of expression or of that of the collective, yet have to be taken on board as possible necessities for a variety of reasons in a variety of situations. Both "regulation" and "censorship" cannot be an "open licence". The areas where they can be applied, the bases of application and the extent of application has to be extremely carefully thought about. Without any doubt (in my mind), the "regulatory" or "censoring" actions have to be sincere, honest, should not over-step the allowed briefs and not seek to serve hidden agendas. Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" Shuddha, if my comments over your mail to Naeem seem like they misrepresent you, please do tell me (if you feel like doing so). Please make it specific and brief because you can very often be tediously boring and so convoluted that it defeats the purpose of making yourself understood, unless it is deliberately so strategised. In conclusion, your reference to "La La Land" is quite childish and hardly does credit to your intellect. Intellectual dishonesty. It was an expression used by me for specific reference to the attitude of "we do not care for the Nation, we do not believe in a Nation" (my own quote marks). It is hardly pertinent to this topic. Again, I see in it an attitude of "You are one of the mob, remember you spoke of La La Land. You must be attacked over it even if it has no bearing here" Sad attitude. Kshmendra Kaul Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: Dear Kshemendra, You said, "Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about "freedoms". No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer.The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer." As a matter of fact, I did. Though in doing so, I did not think I was displaying anything by way of 'moral courage'. I thought I was simply haveing an exchange about the circumstances in which I would countenance or endorse, or at least not object to censorship. I answered Naeem off list. I wrote to him, personally, On the same day, in less than four hours after Naeem had posted his query. I enclose below (at the end of this post) the relevant excerpt from what I wrote to him. (I hope Naeem will not object, and I apologize to Naeem, and to the list for posting a private off-list conversation on the list, although it wa provoked by an on-list query,for reasons of clarification, and tangentially, to defend the honour, if you like, of 'La La Land'.) I did not think it necessary then to post this to the list because it consists in the main, of a quotation from something that I had already posted on the list, and that too recently, with some elaboration. I thought it would be a tad repetitive. But anyway, since it makes my position on censorship very clear,I am happy to include it, at the risk of repetitiveness. Once again, Kshemendra, watch it. Don't be so hasty in the making of assumptions about what other people might have done, or not have done. Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions makes you (more than occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish. Take Care, don't stumble, don't rush, the surfaces you fall on are very hard. 'La La Land' is not a gentle sort of place. Shuddha My reply to Naeem (with the time and date stamp) is below. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: urgent Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:55:51 +0530 From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Organization: Sarai To: Naeem Mohaiemen References: Dear Naeem, ... I did write about what I would censor, some time back, in the post titled 'The Attack on Taslima Nasrin in Hyderabad I' posted on the 18th of August, and maybe it is pertinent to what you wrote and this is - "Similarly, if someone were to post photographic representations of children or animals in a pornographic form on any web forum or any other platform, I would call for its censorship, not because it is pornographic but because its implies sexual actions with implicitly unverifiable consent. Here, i would maintain that a drawn or written (as opposed to photographic) representation would not qualify in my view for censorship, though I would strongly criticse such a representation. Similarly, I would personally call for the censorship of the snuff videos of acts of beheading that jihadist groups in Iraq and elsewhere in the world are so fond of displaying on internet forums, or the photographic representations of hangings and public executions that the fascist and totalitarian regimes in Iran and China sometimes put out Not because I have a problem with the representation of violence per se, but because in these cases the act of representation itself is a violation of the liberty of those who are being killed. No one has asked them (the executed) for their consent to have their beheading or hanging put on public display. In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I would be willing to endorse the censorship of." My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people from watching them. If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above. Please post this argument if you find it necessary, I am a bit tired of posting on the list by now. thanks Shuddha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about "freedoms". > > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer. > > The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to answer. > > Kshmendra Kaul > > PS: > Dear Naeem > > It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting to make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from you, I will understand. > > KK > > > > > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > The question was asked repeatedly on Sarai list recently, "are there > films whose screenings you would stop"? > > Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn? Read on.... > > > Already Under Fire, a Producer Is Going Further > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > Published: June 25, 2007 > > ...Having already provoked parents, women's groups and the ratings > board with explicit ads for the coming torture movie ''Captivity,'' > Mr. Solomon and his After Dark Films now intend to introduce the film, > set for release July 13, with a party that may set a new standard for > the politically incorrect. > > ...But the warren of live torture rooms is a must. As Mr. Solomon > envisions it, individuals in torture gear will wander through the West > Hollywood club Privilege grabbing partygoers. All of which is a > prelude to an undisclosed main event that, he warned last week over > slices of pizza a few doors from his company's new offices on the > Sunset Strip, is ''probably not legal.'' "'The women's groups > definitely will love it,'' Mr. Solomon hinted. ''I call it my personal > little tribute to them.'' > > Mr. Solomon, a fast-talking 35-year-old, and his genre-film company > were barely noticed until outrage at the ''Captivity'' billboards -- > which chronicled a young woman's torment, with frames titled > ''Abduction,'' ''Confinement,'' ''Torture,'' ''Termination'' -- led to > a rare censure by the Motion Picture Association of America this > spring. > > When the association's ratings board suspended its process for a month > as a punitive measure, ''Captivity'' missed its May release date and > was bumped to June 22. But Bob Weinstein and his Dimension Films > wanted that date for their competing horror film ''1408,'' and he > persuaded Mr. Solomon to swap for Friday, July 13. Mr. Solomon quickly > called that Friday ''Captivity Day.'' > > ...These added explicit torture , including a so-called ''milkshake'' > scene that involves body parts and a blender, to a picture that was > largely psychological in its thrust when After Dark acquired the > rights to it. > > Government to Take a Hard Look at Horror > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > Published: March 24, 2007 > > > ...Earlier this week, After Dark and Lionsgate scrambled to contain > the public-relations damage after a Los Angeles Times columnist quoted > several young students objecting to an especially gruesome billboard > for ''Captivity'' near their middle school. After Dark, which is > expected to release the film on May 18 with Lionsgate, quickly agreed > to pull part of its ad campaign. > > ....Horror aficionados date the genre's current flourishing to October > 2004. The first of Lionsgate's ''Saw'' movies, about a demonically > inventive serial killer, opened to a surprisingly strong $18 million > on its first weekend, though it lacked an expensive cast or a > pedigreed filmmaker. Sequels, imitators and close cousins soon > followed. > > ...Fox Atomic, a division formed by Fox Searchlight to cultivate the > late-teenage and early-adult audience, on March 6 placed an ad for its > film ''The Hills Have Eyes 2'' with an evening showing of > ''Dodgeball,'' rated PG-13, on FX. The ad identified ''Hills,'' about > National Guard trainees brutally murdered by mutants, as being not yet > rated, though film association guidelines call for the disclosure of > ratings in ads, and the company had accepted an R rating the day > before. John Hegeman, Fox Atomic's chief operating officer, said the R > rating was missing because it takes about two days to alter a > television spot > > ....official sites for R-rated fare -- deal with > Bloody-disgusting.com, Arrow in the Head (joblo.com/arrow ), > Fangoria.com, or any of another dozen such Web sites. > (Bloody-disgusting, for example, includes chat forums that address > such questions as: ''Can anyone suggest a good torture-esk > movie?'')...The operators of several such sites said they had no way > of knowing how many of their visitors were under 17, but believed the > numbers were substantial. ''The horror site skews a little more toward > the younger ones,'' said Berge Garabedian, founder of the Joblo.com > film site and its associated Arrow in the Head horror section, which > this week carried a banner ad for an unrated DVD of ''Sublime,'' about > gruesome murder in a hospital, from Warner Home Video. Mr. Garabedian > said he tried to block visitors under 15 from discussion boards in > order to eliminate ''a lot of MySpace craziness,'' but thought a > considerable share of his Arrow in the Head visitors to be in the > 13-to-18-year-old age range. > > ....Experian Simmons Research found that 12 percent of respondents > between the ages of 12 and 17 reported watching ''Saw II'' in > theaters, while 12 percent said they had seen the film on DVD, and 26 > percent reported viewing any horror in theaters. In its 2004 report, > the Federal Trade Commission said that in 36 percent of their > attempts, its underage ''mystery shoppers'' were able to buy a movie > ticket without an age check in theaters, down somewhat from about half > in 2000. Meanwhile 81 percent of the young buyers obtained R-rated > DVDs without a check. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 21:45:40 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:45:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Censorship (Re Vishal's enquiries) In-Reply-To: <873179.39540.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <31d5ea920709150940r35023ec3j3ef7ed707be0c01c@mail.gmail.com> <873179.39540.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709170915n5d39653am19c3a595e5b3867b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kashmendra, Thank you for your reply. However your long response does not answer my main questions at all. I do understand that you cannot write down the entire censorship manual. Fair enough. That is not what I was expecting in the first place. But see, Shuddha in just a couple of paragraphs and with just a few key examples managed to explain his position (even making the distiction between different mediums - allowing somethings in text form but not as video). I was hoping that you would be able to provide some examples of your own and in particular discuss the reasons for censoring Jashn-e-Azadi. From your previous posts I get the sense that you would want the film banned or at least not have it screened till it gets a censor certificate. But I do not want to make this inference by reading your various statements in different postings. I would like you to make a categorical statement. Short and crisp. I do not want to exhaust your precious time. So what I am asking you is this: would you ban this film and why? If you would ban it, then can you enumerate in point form (so that it does not get very lengthy) what your reason(s) for doing so would be. In other words, if you were the censor, then would you allow this film to be screened in its present form? If not, then what reasons would you give to the filmmaker for stopping its public screenings? I would accept your statement as is. I am not interested in contesting your viewpoint. I just want to understand clearly what your position is. The essence of democracy is to allow different viewpoints to co-exist and I would respect your position even if I did not agree with it. I would even fight to protect your right to have a say. It may also be that you may be able to convince me about your position through your reasoned arguments. You (among others) have often been accused on this list of raving and ranting. I may not entirely agree and hence this is my attempt to get a clear peicture from you. I hope I am not asking for too much. Regards, Vishal On 9/17/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Vishal > > I have changed the Subject Line. I am sure you will understand why. Your > name has been put so that it does not escape your attention. Will be dropped > if this dialogue goes on. > > 1. You wrote """""That way depending upon "who" is in power, each time a > different standard would be applied"""" > > Yes you are right, that could happen. It was and still is easily done in > cases when the governance is Monarchical, Dictatorial etc, where the "power" > is absolute and brooks no disagreements. > > In societies that have some semblance of the people having a say in who > should govern them, it is not so easily done especially if the "changes in > standards" are drastic. > > Yet, it could happen for example in India for the period that a particular > political party is in power say for a 5 year tenure, unless it were "stayed" > by means of a Legal challenge. If the "change in standard" is unacceptable > to the people and evokes strong resentment, it could become the catalyst for > a "change" of the governing political party. The new ones in "power" might > then revert to the earlier standards in acknowledgment of peoples' strong > feelings. > > Passage of time also brings in "change of standards". For any particular > area if you froze frames of today and a particular time in the past, stark > differences would be seen. Sometimes the differences are amazing when it > comes to expecting that the past would be "retrograde" and the future of > that past would have been "progressive". Subjectivity expected. > > 2. The "who" cannot be an individual because the individual does not have > the right to decide for all the people. > > The individual can, will and should make known his/her opinion over what > the "standards" for the collective should be. > > The individual practices self-regulation and self-censorship. It happens > all the time whether it is in private conversation, corporate communication, > public discourse or in creative expression through song, literature, > film/video, theater, painting, sculpture, poster etc. We often curb our > basic instincts and urges of "true to myself" and "true to my art" > expression. > > 3. You (probably) have a question for me in "''''' And that brings us > to:"what processes", "what areas" and "what evaluations" are to be > considered??"""" > > My generalised comments were made over another generalised comment that I > called a "guiding principle". > > It will be impossible for me touch upon alllllllll aspects contained in > your question. At the very least I would have to talk about the Constituent > Assembly, the Constitution, the Chapters of the Constitution and the "Rights > and Responsibilities" contained therein, the "inviolates" and "amendables" > in the Constitution, the Laws derived from the Constitution, the role of the > Legislature; Executive; Judiciary and so on and on and on and on. I will > not. As much a matter of my lack of competencies as it is of time and space. > > Please do read the Constitution of India (if you are a citizen of India > and have not done so). It is not too daunting a task especially if you get > the measure of rollerblading over the "whereofs" and "wheretos" and > "thereofs" and "theretos". > > 4. Your phrase of "censoring a certain thing" is too generalised both in > terms of the suggested implications as well as the areas. I could not > possibly deal with it in it's entirety. > > There is for example a Censor Board for "films" which is basically a > certifying Institution regulating what film they think is suitable for > which age group. They may suggest cuts to the film-maker. A "totally not fit > for exhibition film" (I do not remember what the exact term is) is a rarity > if you consider the number of films that are put up for Certification. The > Censor Board is supposed to be an autonomous body once it is constituted. > There is enough evidence to suggest that it is not and is both interfered > with and influenced/pressured. The Film Industry has been pressing for > self-regulation > > Such Self-Regulatory norms and bodies do exist for the "Advertising > Agencies" and the "Press"for example. Not very effective though in my > opinion. > > Television does not have but should (in my opinion) have such regulatory > norms especially when it comes to "child viewership". That is not enough > though. For it to be effective "parental locks" should be mandatory on all > Television sets. Ah! but being non-literate will be a problem for reading > manuals and programming the "controls". > > The Web/Internet is another area where regulatory norms have crept in and > will continue to do so. In India for example a few websites have been > "blocked". In Islamic countries "filters" for "words" are used to "block" > websites that may have objectionable content linked presumably with a > particular word. China has reached an understanding of sorts with Google. > Youtube had to remove content after protests. India like any other country > (in my opinion) will establish regulatory norms/processes and arrangements > in the future. > > 5. The particular film you mention has not (to the best of my knowledge) > been put up for Certification. If I had a say, I would apply the (by now > notorious) "Guiding Principles". That apart MY particular comments in > connection with THAT particular film have been made in past (when you were > very much a part of this List). If you missed them, you are most welcome to > go over them. > > Take care > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > Vishal Rawlley wrote: > Dear KK, > > You said: > Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these > standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be > involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for > application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the > life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons > that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" > > But its not about "who" should decide. That way depending upon "who" is in > power, each time a different standard would be applied. The "who" should > therefore be the individual, and each should decide for themselves. > > But that does not mean that individuals can do whatever the decide to. > There are some extreme and rare cases where restraint is necessary. And that > brings us to:"what processes", "what areas" and "what evaluations" are to be > considered?? > > Shuddha has very clearly elaborated on each and thus explained his > position. He is not saying that everything should be allowed. "If it were > non fiction, and non consensual [sexual act], then I would advocate strict > censorship,..." he says - to give an example. Now according to his criteria, > Jashn-e-Azadi is not such an extreme case, as the example he cites, so > regardless of whether he likes the film or not, agrees with it or not, he > feels it should not be censored. > > Now can you give your reasons for censoring a certain thing? What would > you censor and why? Should Jashn-e-Azadi be censored, and if so why? Please > state your case. Thank you. > > -Vishal > > > > On 9/15/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear > Shuddhabrata > > Your mail is addressed to me as an individual and therefore I shall > equally courteously respond. Soon after though, in another mail you revert > to "let us bunch them together" routine. > > It is interesting that some people who celebrate an individual's freedoms > and thereby an individual's identity in this "intellectual community" should > so readily chorus the "I see a mob, I see a mob, attack the mob" shouts > irrespective of how varied the opinions, positions and arguments might be. > Pick up one issue over which there might be strong disagreements and on that > basis dismiss all else about anyone who might even remotely suggest > himself/herself not subscribing to your views on any topic. Demonise them. > No good should be seen in the devils by anyone, so cloud the scene with > "They are a mob; They are a mob; Everyone must attack the mob". > > It was interesting to see someone like Rahul Asthana also (who in my > opinion is one of the "decent" correspondents on this list) get clubbed (not > by you) with the "mob" because he might have disagreed over some issue. > "Rahul is a part of them, Rahul is a part of the mob, beware, you must see > Rahul as part of the mob". Amusing. > > I see all of this as "intellectual cowardice" and a lack of "intellectual > ethics". Those who find it convenient to see a "mob" end up becoming a > "mob". It is sad because it includes some extremely sharp and bright > intellect. Individual intellect however always sacrifices itself to the > psyche of the "mob". > > Let me come to what your mail was essentially about. > > - Naeem asked a question in the room > - I did not see Naeem receiving an answer in the room > - Shuddha says he answered Naeem in private and explains why he did so > - No one in the room saw Naeem receive an answer in public for a question > he asked in public > - As far as any member (including me) of the room is concerned, Naeem did > not receive an answer. > > So Shuddha, there is no assumption on my part as far as that domain is > concerned where the question was asked and where no answer was given. I am > just a simple minded Horatio of simple philosophies of the apparent. > > Actually Shuddha, you of all the people should be able to appreciate that. > I remember the rather facile but the distinctinctness and separateness with > which you sought to aggressively define "public" and "private" spaces. > > I wonder now who should be the candidate for your threatening admonition > of "watch it" and the pomposity in "...makes you (more than occasionally) > run the risk of looking foolish." > > Shuddha your comment about me "Your eagerness to assume the role of the > omniscient surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions" might > sound very telling but does not make me cringe (if it was meant to) simply > because I was very interested in seeing what answers Naeem would receive. > For me, the answers to that question from a "neutral" observer would only > add perspectives to the discussion about "what" or "are there any at all" > limits that can be considered for "individual" or "collective" freedom of > expression. > > Thank you Shuddha for posting your response to Naeem. I saw the most > significant part of your response in your words: > > """""" In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech > and expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a > direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a > person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act. > And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I would be willing > to endorse the censorship of. > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would > not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have > written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that > spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong > content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such > material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people > from watching them. > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and m, > again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want to > watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict > censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above.""""""" > > You have very clearly given the examples and the reasoning. > > You have for one set of cases used the evaluating principle of "...... > there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well > being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant > speech act" Could hardly be put better. > > So, although both "regulation" and "censorship" may be restrictive of the > individual's right to freedom of expression or of that of the collective, > yet have to be taken on board as possible necessities for a variety of > reasons in a variety of situations. > > Both "regulation" and "censorship" cannot be an "open licence". The areas > where they can be applied, the bases of application and the extent of > application has to be extremely carefully thought about. > > Without any doubt (in my mind), the "regulatory" or "censoring" actions > have to be sincere, honest, should not over-step the allowed briefs and not > seek to serve hidden agendas. > > Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these > standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be > involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for > application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the > life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons > that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" > > Shuddha, if my comments over your mail to Naeem seem like they > misrepresent you, please do tell me (if you feel like doing so). Please make > it specific and brief because you can very often be tediously boring and so > convoluted that it defeats the purpose of making yourself understood, unless > it is deliberately so strategised. > > In conclusion, your reference to "La La Land" is quite childish and hardly > does credit to your intellect. Intellectual dishonesty. It was an expression > used by me for specific reference to the attitude of "we do not care for the > Nation, we do not believe in a Nation" (my own quote marks). It is hardly > pertinent to this topic. Again, I see in it an attitude of "You are one of > the mob, remember you spoke of La La Land. You must be attacked over it even > if it has no bearing here" Sad attitude. > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Kshemendra, > > You said, > > "Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > "freedoms". No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this > "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer.The > bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to > answer." > > As a matter of fact, I did. Though in doing so, I did not think I was > displaying anything by way of 'moral courage'. I thought I was simply > haveing an exchange about the circumstances in which I would countenance > or endorse, or at least not object to censorship. > > I answered Naeem off list. I wrote to him, personally, On the same day, > in less than four hours after Naeem had posted his query. I enclose > below (at the end of this post) the relevant excerpt from what I wrote > to him. > > (I hope Naeem will not object, and I apologize to Naeem, and to the list > for posting a private off-list conversation on the list, although it wa > provoked by an on-list query,for reasons of clarification, and > tangentially, to defend the honour, if you like, of 'La La Land'.) > > I did not think it necessary then to post this to the list because it > consists in the main, of a quotation from something that I had already > posted on the list, and that too recently, with some elaboration. I > thought it would be a tad repetitive. But anyway, since it makes my > position on censorship very clear,I am happy to include it, at the risk > of repetitiveness. > > Once again, Kshemendra, watch it. Don't be so hasty in the making of > assumptions about what other people might have done, or not have done. > Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent > of other peoples' actions and opinions makes you (more than > occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish. > > Take Care, don't stumble, don't rush, the surfaces you fall on are very > hard. 'La La Land' is not a gentle sort of place. > > Shuddha > > My reply to Naeem (with the time and date stamp) is below. > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: urgent > Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:55:51 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net > Organization: Sarai > To: Naeem Mohaiemen > References: > > Dear Naeem, > > ... I did write about what I would censor, some time back, in the > post titled 'The Attack on Taslima Nasrin in Hyderabad I' posted on the > 18th of August, and maybe it is pertinent to what you wrote and this is - > > "Similarly, if someone were to post photographic representations of > children or animals in a pornographic form on any web forum or any other > platform, I would call for its censorship, not because it is > pornographic but because its implies sexual actions with implicitly > unverifiable consent. Here, i would maintain that a drawn or written (as > opposed to photographic) representation would not qualify in my view for > censorship, though I would strongly criticse such a representation. > Similarly, I would personally call for the censorship of the snuff > videos of acts of beheading that jihadist groups in Iraq and elsewhere > in the world are so fond of displaying on internet forums, or the > photographic representations of hangings and public executions that the > fascist and totalitarian regimes in Iran and China sometimes put out > Not because I have a problem with the representation of violence per se, > but because in these cases the act of representation itself is a > violation of the liberty of those who are being killed. No one has asked > them (the executed) for their consent to have their beheading or hanging > put on public display. > > In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and > expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a > direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being > of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant > speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I > would be willing to endorse the censorship of." > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would > not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have > written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, > that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings > for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, > because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the > right to stop other people from watching them. > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and > m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want > to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict > censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above. > > Please post this argument if you find it necessary, I am a bit tired of > posting on the list by now. > > thanks > > Shuddha > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > "freedoms". > > > > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual > community" thought the question deserved an answer. > > > > The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to > answer. > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > PS: > > Dear Naeem > > > > It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting to > make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from you, > I will understand. > > > > KK > > > > > > > > > > > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > The question was asked repeatedly on Sarai list recently, "are there > > films whose screenings you would stop"? > > > > Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn? Read > on.... > > > > > > Already Under Fire, a Producer Is Going Further > > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > > Published: June 25, 2007 > > > > ...Having already provoked parents, women's groups and the ratings > > board with explicit ads for the coming torture movie ''Captivity,'' > > Mr. Solomon and his After Dark Films now intend to introduce the film, > > set for release July 13, with a party that may set a new standard for > > the politically incorrect. > > > > ...But the warren of live torture rooms is a must. As Mr. Solomon > > envisions it, individuals in torture gear will wander through the West > > Hollywood club Privilege grabbing partygoers. All of which is a > > prelude to an undisclosed main event that, he warned last week over > > slices of pizza a few doors from his company's new offices on the > > Sunset Strip, is ''probably not legal.'' "'The women's groups > > definitely will love it,'' Mr. Solomon hinted. ''I call it my personal > > little tribute to them.'' > > > > Mr. Solomon, a fast-talking 35-year-old, and his genre-film company > > were barely noticed until outrage at the ''Captivity'' billboards -- > > which chronicled a young woman's torment, with frames titled > > ''Abduction,'' ''Confinement,'' ''Torture,'' ''Termination'' -- led to > > a rare censure by the Motion Picture Association of America this > > spring. > > > > When the association's ratings board suspended its process for a month > > as a punitive measure, ''Captivity'' missed its May release date and > > was bumped to June 22. But Bob Weinstein and his Dimension Films > > wanted that date for their competing horror film ''1408,'' and he > > persuaded Mr. Solomon to swap for Friday, July 13. Mr. Solomon quickly > > called that Friday ''Captivity Day.'' > > > > ...These added explicit torture , including a so-called ''milkshake'' > > scene that involves body parts and a blender, to a picture that was > > largely psychological in its thrust when After Dark acquired the > > rights to it. > > > > Government to Take a Hard Look at Horror > > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > > Published: March 24, 2007 > > > > > > ...Earlier this week, After Dark and Lionsgate scrambled to contain > > the public-relations damage after a Los Angeles Times columnist quoted > > several young students objecting to an especially gruesome billboard > > for ''Captivity'' near their middle school. After Dark, which is > > expected to release the film on May 18 with Lionsgate, quickly agreed > > to pull part of its ad campaign. > > > > ....Horror aficionados date the genre's current flourishing to October > > 2004. The first of Lionsgate's ''Saw'' movies, about a demonically > > inventive serial killer, opened to a surprisingly strong $18 million > > on its first weekend, though it lacked an expensive cast or a > > pedigreed filmmaker. Sequels, imitators and close cousins soon > > followed. > > > > ...Fox Atomic, a division formed by Fox Searchlight to cultivate the > > late-teenage and early-adult audience, on March 6 placed an ad for its > > film ''The Hills Have Eyes 2'' with an evening showing of > > ''Dodgeball,'' rated PG-13, on FX. The ad identified ''Hills,'' about > > National Guard trainees brutally murdered by mutants, as being not yet > > rated, though film association guidelines call for the disclosure of > > ratings in ads, and the company had accepted an R rating the day > > before. John Hegeman, Fox Atomic's chief operating officer, said the R > > rating was missing because it takes about two days to alter a > > television spot > > > > ....official sites for R-rated fare -- deal with > > Bloody-disgusting.com, Arrow in the Head (joblo.com/arrow ), > > Fangoria.com, or any of another dozen such Web sites. > > (Bloody-disgusting, for example, includes chat forums that address > > such questions as: ''Can anyone suggest a good torture-esk > > movie?'')...The operators of several such sites said they had no way > > of knowing how many of their visitors were under 17, but believed the > > numbers were substantial. ''The horror site skews a little more toward > > the younger ones,'' said Berge Garabedian, founder of the Joblo.com > > film site and its associated Arrow in the Head horror section, which > > this week carried a banner ad for an unrated DVD of ''Sublime,'' about > > gruesome murder in a hospital, from Warner Home Video. Mr. Garabedian > > said he tried to block visitors under 15 from discussion boards in > > order to eliminate ''a lot of MySpace craziness,'' but thought a > > considerable share of his Arrow in the Head visitors to be in the > > 13-to-18-year-old age range. > > > > ....Experian Simmons Research found that 12 percent of respondents > > between the ages of 12 and 17 reported watching ''Saw II'' in > > theaters, while 12 percent said they had seen the film on DVD, and 26 > > percent reported viewing any horror in theaters. In its 2004 report, > > the Federal Trade Commission said that in 36 percent of their > > attempts, its underage ''mystery shoppers'' were able to buy a movie > > ticket without an age check in theaters, down somewhat from about half > > in 2000. Meanwhile 81 percent of the young buyers obtained R-rated > > DVDs without a check. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! > FareChase. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > --------------------------------- > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > --------------------------------- > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get > listings, and more! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From justjunaid at rediffmail.com Mon Sep 17 22:11:40 2007 From: justjunaid at rediffmail.com (junaid) Date: 17 Sep 2007 16:41:40 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir Message-ID: <20070917164140.11696.qmail@webmail57.rediffmail.com> Dear Shivam, I am as curious as you are to know how many people in Kashmir want statehood. It is for this reason a plebiscite should be conducted. Not the one which UN suggested, but something that gives people a lot more choices. Choices like: More integration with India (Removal of Art. 370 etc.), More Autonomy within India (like the pre-1953 status), Joint Governance (Both India and Pakistan decide, along with Kashmiris), Total Accession to Pakistan, Autonomy within Pakistan, or Total Independence and Integration of Two Kashmirs. A recent poll conducted by Indian Express and CSDS in India, Pakistan and Kashmir came up with a generally-known fact that most people (it said 87 percent) in Kashmir want independence. Even if we assume a five to ten percent margin of error, the aspiration for Independence seems overwhelming. In the referendum in French-speaking Quebec region of Canada, for its independence, the new state could not come into being just because it lost by a couple of percent of votes. The European Constitution lost by a thin margin in the French referendum two years back. May be India might get lucky in Kashmir. Across the border there are a number of organizations which seek Independence and Integration. But if they want to remain in Pakistan they should be free to do so. A referendum there would answer our questions. On staying neutral etc. I would say even if Kashmir does not stay neutral, is it an adequate argument to deny its people their rights. The neutrality logic works like in Preventive Detention. At least, there are some people who are kept in preventive custody for they may have a bad record, but Kashmir has not even been given a chance. Junaid ***********************************   Shivam Vij wrote: Dear Junaid, Your arguments are well taken. The excuses that you list often do sound excuses to deny Kashmiris their right to self-determination and the parallels with British India are noteworthy. However, the experience of small countries within south asia - bangladesh, sri lanka, nepal and particularly bhutan - find it impossible to be neutral. that seems to me to be idealism inspired by the valley's beauty! Secondly, how do I know how many in Kashmir want statehood. And I am even more curious about the political aspirations of those in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. I know nothing of them, certainly not from non-partisan sources. Best shivam On 16 Sep 2007 11:58:19 -0000, junaid wrote: > > I wonder how the mainstream Indian discourse on Kashmir has been > internalized, so much that independence for Kashmir as a non-possibility is > seen as natural and obvious. What is it that makes even the Indian > Kashmir-sympathizers take anything-short-of-independence as axiomatic? Why > can't anyone here make a reasonable, educated argument about why this should > be the case? > > Do not speak of size, for Kashmir (valley) is definitely larger than many > countries in the world. If you speak of its land-lockedness, then I can > count you a number of European and Asian countries that are small and > land-locked. If you speak of three Asian bullies—India, Pakistan and > China—surrounding it, then I must say international treaties, bilateral > non-aggression pacts, and Kashmir's neutrality will be Kashmir's best > defense. Aren't so many small countries surviving, and actually doing well, > with really no defense in place, but just goodwill and international norms? > If you say, lack of economic self-reliance, then I will just point to the > great natural and human resources in Kashmir. > > And if it is a unique case, then let it be a unique country in the world. > Weak, Poor, and Defenceless. But a country whose people are the masters of > their fate. > > If you are still stuck up on "anything-short-of..." argument then I must > tell you Kashmiris really don't give a damn. They fight for freedom, and > they will surely learn how to handle it. Before British left Indian > subcontinent, they used to make a similar argument. The Indian visionaries > made the counter argument that you can't learn to love freedom and democracy > unless you taste it. Although Indians have not come up to the expectations, > and its elite--Brahmanical as well as corporate--have cozened and defrauded > the lower castes and the poor, yet India is not doing that badly. Since > Kashmir is not beset with so many contradictions like post-independence > India, I guess it will outdo India in preserving freedom. > > Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied. > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 22:24:47 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:24:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UN-SUBSCRIBE In-Reply-To: <46EE7BD1.1030003@sarai.net> References: <349718.68952.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <46EE7BD1.1030003@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709170954l22763f0dr908e7df3e5afe586@mail.gmail.com> Dhatri , Come back to the jungle ! We have to teach them common sense . Afetr all for them common sense is not so common. Pawan On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Dhatri ji, > > Farewell, > > Best > > Shuddha > > > we wi wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > CC was the practice that everybody following and no body > adviced anybody. Any way I will be un-subscribing from SARAI. It is a > great pleasure to read the members and their views on various topics. Hope > you all continue with the words LIPTA,MATRA and ANIMESHI. > > > > I thank everybody for giving me an opportunity to write here > and I express my deep sorrow over my all known/unknown mistakes that hurts > you if any. In particular I thank the moderator of SARAI. Wishing you all > peace and more knowledge with good health. > > > > Jai Hind, > > Your Truly, > > Dhatri. > > > > Tapas Ray wrote: > > Could the preaching stop, please? This list is probably not an > > appropriate forum for expounding on the Gita or Bible or Quran or Talmud > > or what have you. It is for the honing of one's own reason on the > > other's reason and vice versa, and the emergence of a common > > understanding of life through this process. Faith, which is dogma and > > not reason, has no place in this scheme. > > > > Tapas > > > > > > we wi wrote: > > > >>Nice Reply. > >> > >>Regards, > >>Dhatri. > >> > >>radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > >>Dear all, > >>it is common sense that tell us that as a child is born, mother is > truth, father is faith, as the child grows, it gets all the trappings of > faith, when child is born it does not get faith, it is told by its mother, > that some male is his / her father, it is faith. So also in society, where > knowledge ends, faith commences. > >>Gita for me is the way of life far above the religious scriptures, as it > shows the way of life, secrets of knowledge where we get answers to > questions that arise in our intellect about all that is material, > intellectual and spiritual. It does not distinguish the humans on "caste' as > we see the castes today, it talks of work or vocation of an individual in > society and his duties to society and exhorts him to do his work in society > and serve the society without waiting for the fruits of his good work, > submit all the actions to the supreme soul, so that his soul identifies > itself with supreme soul that is GOD, called by any name, Shiva, Ram, Christ > or Allah. As the names are only by choice of the faithful to their percieved > GOD, who is one for all humanity, living beings in form or in Sakara roop, > or in Nirvikara swaroop a super soul of all the souls, all actions have > reactions, some immediate, some menifest, some delayed reactions to every > action in society. > >>The day, all humans understand their role in society to live life with > compassion and affection to all in society, > >>be responsible and responsive to others in society and identify their > interest with that of society, rise above greed and selfish interests, all > in society will have better life, as ills in society will lose out to good > in society. Good of the individuals in society is GOD to all in society. > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: we wi > >>Date: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:11 pm > >>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER0**** > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg > >>To: Partha Dasgupta > >> > >>Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, readerlist , Jeebesh Bagchi > >> > >> > >>>Dear Partha, > >>> > >>> > >>>If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal > >>>issues, I should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains > >>>me. As per my knowledge SARAI reader list voice, > >>>reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting > >>>BHAGAVATGEETA, > >>>sadrsam cestate svasyah > >>>prakrter jnanavan api > >>>prakrtim yanti bhutani > >>>nigrahah kim karisyati > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Got a little couch potato? > > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 22:30:48 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:30:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30709170541s176f09a6pf2a15257cfc79e30@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> <46EE1118.4060608@sarai.net> <9c06aab30709170541s176f09a6pf2a15257cfc79e30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709171000j47e90a5ahd5b8bb7be9748eb@mail.gmail.com> For me 1. Sethu Samudram is a matter of faith. 2. I care about Ecology , more so when fiddling with it causes discomfort to faith of billions. I do not care for about BJP or VHP , as long as I do not need their support to strengthen my cause. And in this project if they do something which halts the project , i dont mind. It does not mean I am necessarily going to vote for them. Any more candid answer needed from me ? Pawan On 9/17/07, Shivam Vij wrote: > > I do, Shuddha. Don't you, Pawan? The BJP-VHP-RSS joint family can't > appropriate ecological concerns when it comes to Sethusundaram, and refuse > to answer them when it comes to the Hindu Bomb. Surely Pawan, you condemn > such hypocrisy? > best > shivam > > On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > Thank you for your appreciation of my concern. Since I do not share your > > faith, I cannot take that into consideration in my assessment of the > > Sethusamudran Project. But since I do share your ecological, > > developmental and financial concerns, I fully agree with you that the > > Sethusamudran Project is going to be a disaster. > > > > Now since you share my ecological, financial and developmental concerns > > (and whether or not you do share my attitude to questions of faith, on > > which we can agree to disagree) I do hope you will share in my > > condemnation of the Nuclear Tests in Pokhran, the military occupation of > > the Siachen glacier, the Narmada Dam and the 'canalization' plan > > proposed by the Bharatiya Janata Party as an alternative to the > > Sethusamduran Project. Because these are and have been all ecological, > > developmental and financial disasters. > > > > You do, don't you? > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha (not Gargi) > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Shuddha , > > > > > > Thank you for your concern on Sethu Samudram , besides ecological > > disaster > > > it is a matter of faith as well. > > > > > > Even the developemnt is not going to be of major use, its a financial > > > disaster. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/17/07, Partha Dasgupta < parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >>Hi, > > >> > > >>As an aside, had an offline chat with Pawan when he mentioned that he > > >>plans to plant a 1000 trees - something so simple yet so important > > that I > > >>didn't even remember it. > > >> > > >>The basics are simple steps we can take that will make a difference in > > the > > >>long run. And yes, I do agree that our shattered environment > > (including the > > >>Sethusamudram project) needs a serious rethink as to where the ecology > > is > > >>going. > > >> > > >>Rgds, Partha > > >>.................. > > >> > > >> On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>>Dear All, > > >>> > > >>>This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total > > >>>agreement with Pawan Durani. So, I thought I would break my silence. > > >>>Thank you Pawan for the links that you have sent. > > >>> > > >>>I think that the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project is indeed a > > blueprint > > >>>for the unfolding of a human tragedy and an ecological disaster. And > > I > > >>>think it ranks along with the Narmada Dam Project as a plan that is > > >>>deeply inimical to the interests and livelihoods of the people who > > will > > >>>be affected by it most, namely local fisher folk (for whom the region > > is > > >>>an age old natural fishing commons). > > >>> > > >>>I see no reason why ancient fishing practices and the delicate > > natural > > >>>ecology of the region should have to be disrupted just so that > > >>>Capitalism (in the form of ships carrying containers) and the Indian > > >>>Navy's ships can gain a few hours while crossing from the west to the > > >>>east coast of India. If for all these centures, ships have had to > > round > > >>>the southern tip of Sri Lanka to move from the Arabian sea to the Bay > > of > > >>>Bengal, and traverse the waters of the Indian Ocean region, I do not > > see > > >>> why then the livelihoods of the inhabitants of the region have to > > be > > >>> suddenly sacrified for them to be able to move faster.I see > > absolutely > > >>>nothing wrong in insisting that the ships take the same time that > > they > > >>>have always taken? > > >>> > > >>>However, I have also watched worthies from the Bharatiya Janata > > Party, > > >>>especially, Shri Murli Manohar Joshi, present their 'alternative' > > >>>project for the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project over the last few > > days > > >>>on television - which is to cut a canal through the southern tip of > > the > > >>>Deccan peninsula. And I think that proposal is just as much of a > > >>>potential human and ecological disaster as the disruption of the > > >>>Sethusamudram region. So the new found 'greening' of the BJP, needs > > to > > >>>be understood for what it is. Yet another recipe for the displacement > > of > > >>>people and the violent disruption of the landscape, on the same scale > > as > > >>>Sardar Sarovar project and the proposed scheme to link rivers that > > was > > >>>the pet project of the esteeemed erstwhile president of the Indian > > >>>republic. > > >>> > > >>>I would like to point readers on the list to consider the tragic > > >>>histories of Panama (a state, now a narco-republic, carved out in > > order > > >>>to dig a canal) and the Suez canal (over which at least one major > > >>>military conflict - the Suez crisis of 1956 erupted. I have no doubt > > >>>that The BJP's recently found enthusiasm for cutting a canal through > > >>>Southern India will no doubt create 'swadeshi' versions of > > >>>narco-republicanism, and aggressive military posturing a la Panama > > and > > >>>Suez. > > >>> > > >>>Also, on a parting note, let us not forget the decision by successive > > >>>governments, controlled by the Congress or led by the BJP, that did > > not > > >>>have any qualms about violating the delicate ecology of the Thar > > desert > > >>>with Nuclear explostions, or completely destroying the equally > > delicate > > >>>Himalayan glacial environment of Siachen in the part of Jammu and > > >>>Kashmir occupied by India, by stationing troops, heavy artillery and > > >>>continuing what must be one of the most tragic, bizarre, violent and > > >>>wasteful military engagements with landscape in the history of the > > >>>modern world. > > >>> > > >>>So, yes let us all demand that the Sethusamudram region be left > > alone, > > >>>let us demand that no more nuclear explosions or tests ever take > > place > > >>>in the Thar desert or anywhere in the landmass of all of South Asia, > > or > > >>>in the Lop Nor plateau in Tibet, and let us demand also a unilateral > > >>>ceasefire and troop withdrawal from Siachen, and let us demand > > immediate > > >>>cessation of the Sardar Saroval Project on the river Narmada and that > > >>>the river linking project be abandoned. I would be absolutely willing > > to > > >>>assent to all these demands, and while doing so, I would also demand > > >>>that those who took the decisions to conduct Nuclear Tests in Pokhran > > in > > >>> > > >>>India (in 1974 and in 1998) and in the Chagai Hills in Pakistan (in > > >>>1998) or on the Lop Nor plateau in Tiber offer uconditional apologies > > to > > >>>the people of India, Pakistan and Tibet (and to all peoples in Asia) > > for > > >>> > > >>>the serious damage that these tests caused to the ecology of South > > and > > >>>Central Asia. > > >>> > > >>>I sincerely hope that all of you will agree with me. > > >>> > > >>>regards > > >>> > > >>>Shuddha > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Pawan Durani wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> http://tamilinfoservice.com/manitham/environment/sscp/article/4.htm > > >>>> > > >>>>http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/tamilnadu/050404sethu.htm > > >>>> > > >>>>http://www.greensl.net/campaigns003.php > > >>>> > > >>>>http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/a-blunder-called-sethusamudram/ > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>Where are all those who had been talking about ecological disaster > > >>> > > >>>during > > >>> > > >>>>Narmada Dam project ? Why are they silent ? Where are the > > >>> > > >>>activists and > > >>> > > >>>>the film makers ? > > >>>> > > >>>>I do understand their problems and the "compulsions". > > >>>> > > >>>>God Bless ! > > >>>>_________________________________________ > > >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>>>Critiques & Collaborations > > >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> > > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> > > >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> > > >>>_________________________________________ > > >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>>Critiques & Collaborations > > >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>>subscribe in the subject header. > > >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------ > Shivam Vij > 9871845627 > www.shivamvij.com > mail at shivamvij.com > > Correspondent, Tehelka > M-76, 2nd Floor, M-Block Market > Greater Kailash II, New Delhi 110048 > Tel/Fax: 91-11-41638750-55 > www.tehelka.com > shivam at tehelka.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 22:43:28 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:43:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Can't avoid nuclear power: Buddhadeb Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709171013m6ec03055vcc0f6113661072eb@mail.gmail.com> Dear Readers , As expected , the drama is unfolding . Deal Or No Deal ? http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070026426 NDTV Correspondent Monday, September 17, 2007 () West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharya is generally more liberal on ideology. But he also walked a thin line on Monday on the nuclear deal and nuclear power. So far he has been publicly firm on opposing the Indo-US deal. Media speculation began again after he said India should be ''cautious'' on the deal and also came out in favour of nuclear power. ''And as far as I am concerned and from what I have read in papers and magazines you just can't avoid nuclear power,'' he said. As to whether nuclear power is a safe and economic alternative, he said, let scientists decide the issue and pointed out that environmentalists opposing nuclear power as a viable option are beginning to sound like ''fundamentalists''. Bhattacharya's comment, made at a Confederation of Indian Industries meeting in Kolkata on Monday, comes at a time when the Left is furiously opposing the Indo-US nuclear deal. Though the Left are opposed to the Indo-US nuclear deal, they are not opposed to nuclear energy per se. ''We need clean power in the background of the global warming problems that are threatening our civilisation. Some people think, some scientists, that the only alternative is nuclear power. And what our honourable PM says that we have entered a nuclear renaissance. But we have some doubts not about the environmental problems but the cost of setting up the nuclear power plants about the price of nuclear electricity; all of this has to be properly evaluated. And scientists, planners and politicians must come together and discuss this. It's more a technical opinion than a political one.'' Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had invited Buddhadeb to a dinner date last month when the Left's opposition to the nuclear deal was at his height. The Left has not really taken a stand on nuclear energy. What they have said is that before going in for nuclear energy, the implications for going in for such a choice should be worked out vis-a-vis cost effectiveness, are other sources such as hydel, thermal power being utilised, what is impact on environment, in wake of Chernobyl disaster. From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 17 23:11:16 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:11:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709171000j47e90a5ahd5b8bb7be9748eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> <46EE1118.4060608@sarai.net> <9c06aab30709170541s176f09a6pf2a15257cfc79e30@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709171000j47e90a5ahd5b8bb7be9748eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EEBC3C.1090100@sarai.net> Dear Pawan, many thanks for your thoughtful reply, actually I dont care two hoots for the BJP or VHP either, so I am glad to see that we are on common ground here too. In fact I think that the BJP is the one political party that played the dirtiest and most cynical politics with displaced Kashmiri Pandits. I am sure you will agree. They used them, and then they discarded them. The question I am asking you is not really about the BJP or VHP or any sangh parivar outfit, I dont care about them, I am glad you dont either. But as a person of faith, of passionate faith, and who is considerate about ecology, would you not say that the destruction of the holy river Narmada, the militarization of the Himalayas (sacred), and the Thar desert, which is sacred for those who live there, are also a matter of insulting faith. I am sure these hurt you too. Now I am not very lucky in the faith department. I do not have faith, but I respect everyone elses right to their faith. Of every religion and spiritual perspective. And I think that the spaces people think are sacred, be they temples, mosques, churches, deserts, forests, mountains, rivers, schools or taverns should be treated with respect. On simply these grounds would you say - 1. The Nuclear Tests in Pokhran were a terribly wrong thing to do 2. That Indian army soldiers should never have been on Siachen glacier 3. That the Narmada Dam should not be built 4. That the alternative proposal of the Sethusamudram Canal should not be built - because not just the Ram Sethu, but the entire Rameshwaram area around Kanyakumari is sacred. In all four of these issues, there are matters of faith and the sacred involved. So I would imagine that we should all be equally concerned about all of them. Or do you think that this is too crude a way to look at the issue, because maybe everything is not equal, maybe there are some things, some spaces, some gods that are more sacred than others. In which case you would give priority to those things that you considered more sacred and not to those which you considered less sacred. As I am not a person who has faith, I cannot answer this question, because I would apply my crude reason and say everything that is a symbol of faith is of equal significance, and should be respected equally. How wold I know any better? After all I dont believe. So I honestly dont know. That is why I am asking you too help me think this through. Are all sacred things equally sacred to you? Are the Thar desert and a Himalayan Glacier and the Holy River Narmada and the Ram Sethu equally sacred, or is the Ram Sethu more sacred than the others that I have mentioned? Or is the Himalaya more sacred than the Ram Setu? I am confused. I am not asking you about the BJP or any other party. I am asking you to think about how peoples faith is disprespected and violated by nuclear weapons, militarization of the mountains and big dams, and of course these are really really ecologically harmful - all three of them equal disasters. So with my crude reason I would say that we should raise our voices against all of them at the same time. Of that I have no doubt, I just wanted to know if, in your opinion, one was more sacred than the other. I hope to learn from your answer, regards Shuddha Pawan Durani wrote: > For me > > 1. Sethu Samudram is a matter of faith. > 2. I care about Ecology , more so when fiddling with it causes discomfort to > faith of billions. > > I do not care for about BJP or VHP , as long as I do not need their support > to strengthen my cause. And in this project if they do something which halts > the project , i dont mind. > > It does not mean I am necessarily going to vote for them. > > Any more candid answer needed from me ? > > Pawan > > > On 9/17/07, Shivam Vij wrote: > >>I do, Shuddha. Don't you, Pawan? The BJP-VHP-RSS joint family can't >>appropriate ecological concerns when it comes to Sethusundaram, and refuse >>to answer them when it comes to the Hindu Bomb. Surely Pawan, you condemn >>such hypocrisy? >>best >>shivam >> >> On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >>>Dear Pawan, >>> >>>Thank you for your appreciation of my concern. Since I do not share your >>>faith, I cannot take that into consideration in my assessment of the >>>Sethusamudran Project. But since I do share your ecological, >>>developmental and financial concerns, I fully agree with you that the >>>Sethusamudran Project is going to be a disaster. >>> >>>Now since you share my ecological, financial and developmental concerns >>>(and whether or not you do share my attitude to questions of faith, on >>>which we can agree to disagree) I do hope you will share in my >>>condemnation of the Nuclear Tests in Pokhran, the military occupation of >>>the Siachen glacier, the Narmada Dam and the 'canalization' plan >>>proposed by the Bharatiya Janata Party as an alternative to the >>>Sethusamduran Project. Because these are and have been all ecological, >>>developmental and financial disasters. >>> >>>You do, don't you? >>> >>>regards >>> >>>Shuddha (not Gargi) >>> >>> >>>Pawan Durani wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Shuddha , >>>> >>>>Thank you for your concern on Sethu Samudram , besides ecological >>> >>>disaster >>> >>>>it is a matter of faith as well. >>>> >>>>Even the developemnt is not going to be of major use, its a financial >>>>disaster. >>>> >>>>Pawan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On 9/17/07, Partha Dasgupta < parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Hi, >>>>> >>>>>As an aside, had an offline chat with Pawan when he mentioned that he >>>>>plans to plant a 1000 trees - something so simple yet so important >>> >>>that I >>> >>>>>didn't even remember it. >>>>> >>>>>The basics are simple steps we can take that will make a difference in >>> >>>the >>> >>>>>long run. And yes, I do agree that our shattered environment >>> >>>(including the >>> >>>>>Sethusamudram project) needs a serious rethink as to where the ecology >>> >>>is >>> >>>>>going. >>>>> >>>>>Rgds, Partha >>>>>.................. >>>>> >>>>>On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Dear All, >>>>>> >>>>>>This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total >>>>>>agreement with Pawan Durani. So, I thought I would break my silence. >>>>>>Thank you Pawan for the links that you have sent. >>>>>> >>>>>>I think that the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project is indeed a >>> >>>blueprint >>> >>>>>>for the unfolding of a human tragedy and an ecological disaster. And >>> >>>I >>> >>>>>>think it ranks along with the Narmada Dam Project as a plan that is >>>>>>deeply inimical to the interests and livelihoods of the people who >>> >>>will >>> >>>>>>be affected by it most, namely local fisher folk (for whom the region >>> >>>is >>> >>>>>>an age old natural fishing commons). >>>>>> >>>>>>I see no reason why ancient fishing practices and the delicate >>> >>>natural >>> >>>>>>ecology of the region should have to be disrupted just so that >>>>>>Capitalism (in the form of ships carrying containers) and the Indian >>>>>>Navy's ships can gain a few hours while crossing from the west to the >>>>>>east coast of India. If for all these centures, ships have had to >>> >>>round >>> >>>>>>the southern tip of Sri Lanka to move from the Arabian sea to the Bay >>> >>>of >>> >>>>>>Bengal, and traverse the waters of the Indian Ocean region, I do not >>> >>>see >>> >>>>>> why then the livelihoods of the inhabitants of the region have to >>> >>>be >>> >>>>>> suddenly sacrified for them to be able to move faster.I see >>> >>>absolutely >>> >>>>>>nothing wrong in insisting that the ships take the same time that >>> >>>they >>> >>>>>>have always taken? >>>>>> >>>>>>However, I have also watched worthies from the Bharatiya Janata >>> >>>Party, >>> >>>>>>especially, Shri Murli Manohar Joshi, present their 'alternative' >>>>>>project for the Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project over the last few >>> >>>days >>> >>>>>>on television - which is to cut a canal through the southern tip of >>> >>>the >>> >>>>>>Deccan peninsula. And I think that proposal is just as much of a >>>>>>potential human and ecological disaster as the disruption of the >>>>>>Sethusamudram region. So the new found 'greening' of the BJP, needs >>> >>>to >>> >>>>>>be understood for what it is. Yet another recipe for the displacement >>> >>>of >>> >>>>>>people and the violent disruption of the landscape, on the same scale >>> >>>as >>> >>>>>>Sardar Sarovar project and the proposed scheme to link rivers that >>> >>>was >>> >>>>>>the pet project of the esteeemed erstwhile president of the Indian >>>>>>republic. >>>>>> >>>>>>I would like to point readers on the list to consider the tragic >>>>>>histories of Panama (a state, now a narco-republic, carved out in >>> >>>order >>> >>>>>>to dig a canal) and the Suez canal (over which at least one major >>>>>>military conflict - the Suez crisis of 1956 erupted. I have no doubt >>>>>>that The BJP's recently found enthusiasm for cutting a canal through >>>>>>Southern India will no doubt create 'swadeshi' versions of >>>>>>narco-republicanism, and aggressive military posturing a la Panama >>> >>>and >>> >>>>>>Suez. >>>>>> >>>>>>Also, on a parting note, let us not forget the decision by successive >>>>>>governments, controlled by the Congress or led by the BJP, that did >>> >>>not >>> >>>>>>have any qualms about violating the delicate ecology of the Thar >>> >>>desert >>> >>>>>>with Nuclear explostions, or completely destroying the equally >>> >>>delicate >>> >>>>>>Himalayan glacial environment of Siachen in the part of Jammu and >>>>>>Kashmir occupied by India, by stationing troops, heavy artillery and >>>>>>continuing what must be one of the most tragic, bizarre, violent and >>>>>>wasteful military engagements with landscape in the history of the >>>>>>modern world. >>>>>> >>>>>>So, yes let us all demand that the Sethusamudram region be left >>> >>>alone, >>> >>>>>>let us demand that no more nuclear explosions or tests ever take >>> >>>place >>> >>>>>>in the Thar desert or anywhere in the landmass of all of South Asia, >>> >>>or >>> >>>>>>in the Lop Nor plateau in Tibet, and let us demand also a unilateral >>>>>>ceasefire and troop withdrawal from Siachen, and let us demand >>> >>>immediate >>> >>>>>>cessation of the Sardar Saroval Project on the river Narmada and that >>>>>>the river linking project be abandoned. I would be absolutely willing >>> >>>to >>> >>>>>>assent to all these demands, and while doing so, I would also demand >>>>>>that those who took the decisions to conduct Nuclear Tests in Pokhran >>> >>>in >>> >>>>>>India (in 1974 and in 1998) and in the Chagai Hills in Pakistan (in >>>>>>1998) or on the Lop Nor plateau in Tiber offer uconditional apologies >>> >>>to >>> >>>>>>the people of India, Pakistan and Tibet (and to all peoples in Asia) >>> >>>for >>> >>>>>>the serious damage that these tests caused to the ecology of South >>> >>>and >>> >>>>>>Central Asia. >>>>>> >>>>>>I sincerely hope that all of you will agree with me. >>>>>> >>>>>>regards >>>>>> >>>>>>Shuddha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Pawan Durani wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>http://tamilinfoservice.com/manitham/environment/sscp/article/4.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/tamilnadu/050404sethu.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://www.greensl.net/campaigns003.php >>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/a-blunder-called-sethusamudram/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Where are all those who had been talking about ecological disaster >>>>>> >>>>>>during >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Narmada Dam project ? Why are they silent ? Where are the >>>>>> >>>>>>activists and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>the film makers ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I do understand their problems and the "compulsions". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>God Bless ! >>>>>>>_________________________________________ >>>>>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> >>>>>>subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>>>_________________________________________ >>>>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>_________________________________________ >>>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>Critiques & Collaborations >>>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>>subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>>_________________________________________ >>>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>Critiques & Collaborations >>>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>subscribe in the subject header. >>>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >>-- >>------------------------------------------------------ >>Shivam Vij >>9871845627 >>www.shivamvij.com >>mail at shivamvij.com >> >>Correspondent, Tehelka >>M-76, 2nd Floor, M-Block Market >>Greater Kailash II, New Delhi 110048 >>Tel/Fax: 91-11-41638750-55 >>www.tehelka.com >>shivam at tehelka.com > > From sen.gargi at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 23:12:58 2007 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:12:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709162207y15067ffcy8e9864cb3d0e2f0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan, Your name means wind, actually the god of wind. I hope you are familiar with all the meanings and metaphors of your name? Now my name too has a few connotations although no direct meaning except that Gargi is the daughter of Garg ­ but it has some connotations. While the connotations are varied and can perhaps be seen as endless, the one meaning that cannot be associated with Gargi is pure, or Shuddha. (You often call him Shaddha which means a death ritual ­ meant as process of purification so perhaps accepted.) Now what you can¹t do is call Shuddha Gargi or reply to my post but address it to Shuddha. And yet you have done it. Are you like Rahul squeamish about Œladies¹ and would rather talk to men? But even if I accept that, why Shuddha, why not the n number of men on this list? Why not even Vishal whose name is in the subject line? Are you so obsessed and obsessive about Shuddha that you see him everywhere? That is called Diwanapan in Urdu/ Hindustani meaning the madness caused by love (and you know wiser people than me have said that love and hate are but two sides of the same coin.) The diwana sees the image of the beloved everywhere, in everything, and through his love for the beloved he can touch the divine love. The next step for the diwana is even more interesting, and Heer did it with her beloved Ranjha ­ Ranjha Ranjha kehti hu mein ape Ranjha hoi (I called/ repeated the name Ranjha so many times that I became Ranjha.) So be careful Pawan dear, lest you turn into Shuddha. And if you want to Œtalk¹ to me, please have the courtesy to address me. Gargi Sen On 9/17/07 10:37 AM, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Dear Shuddhaa , S of SAP. > > 1. And the World remained Silent has a censor certificate . > > 2. Please correct your statement ....it is not Indian occupied Kashmir , But > Indian Kashmir . Few words here and there makes a difference. > > 3. Walking into Nepal does not have anything to do with Indias economic power. > Had it been the case Burma was a much poorer neighboring country. > > 4. ARKP is a party to Kashmir issue , being the aborgonies of the land where > our history goes back to 5000 years +. > > For , Shudhaaa , a person who jumps at every instenve whenever yasin maliks > name is taken , ARKP is a problem...... > > Is that what is much similar to Stockholm Syndrome ? > > Pawan Durani > > > On 9/17/07, Gargi Sen wrote: >> Dear Rahul, the R of ARKP, >> I hope your post below is able to rest Khemendra's mind (I am getting so >> very fond of that man) and explain exactly why I clubbed you into the the >> mob. It is simply because you share an inability to imagine. >> >> Just listen carefully to your own arguments >> >> This is my >> response to Vishal and it has my argument as to why >> the nation may resort to censorship in some cases-to >> be specific,why it would censor something that >> promotes self determination in Kashmir. >> >> >> Just for your information - the nation/ state/ nation state/ whatever did >> not censor Jashn-e-azadi. A group of disgruntled Kashmiri Pundits did. Now >> since when did this bunch of KPs become the 'nation' whatever that may be? >> And how come YOU choose the side of one KP against the other? After all the >> director himself is a KP. >> >> For your information a nation, even this great one, does not 'censor'. This >> one makes it mandatory a pre-censorship of films only. The only art form >> requiring pre-censoring is a film (exception Gujarat that requires the >> scripts of plays being performed to be censored.) You can write a book, >> create poetry, paint and publicly display, but you can not do so with film. >> Many of us believe that the government¹s policies are discriminatory if not >> downright unethical. No one has the right to censor ­ and I am not talking >> about regulations. Now on personal, political and ethical grounds many >> independent filmmakers will not apply for censorship for their film. And >> that is a stated, collectivised political position. And this community still >> does it, knowing jolly well the consequences. >> Also, getting a censor certificate does not mean that the film will not run >> into controversy, be stopped, or banned. Perzania is the latest in this >> list. Of course there are many stopped by the lunatic fringe. However, what >> is often missed by filmmakers themselves also is how the Œcontrolled market¹ >> being peddled by the money bags as Œfree market¹ also effectively blocks the >> film¹s run. >> And try selling this argument of yours to Ashok Pundit and the ARKP who >> quite successfully screen another film on KPs migration from valley. A tear >> jerker called And the World Remained Silent (or something similar.) No state >> or no nation has stepped in to stop that one. >> This discussion can go on forever. But only when you have your arguments >> properly constructed. >> AND incidentally, I am a woman. AND I hope you can get over your >> squeamishness about Œladies¹ to engage with me >> >> >> Now,many people think that A united and independent >> Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution to >> this 60 year old dispute. >> >> Right, and I am one of those. AND a woman to boot. >> >> >> This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont >> think that is gonna happen. >> >> Why not Rahul? History provides information to the contrary. You and I would >> not be citizens of a so-called free nation if such things were not Œgonna¹ >> happen. And remember my gender. >> >> Nations dont work on such canonical moral >> principles.For getting anywhere near to the solution >> of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip with >> realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit from >> an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir itself.As >> for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN >> reiterates a policy of non interference and >> bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb the >> other party to come to a solution. Nor can any country >> bleed the other to a point of submission by terrorism >> etc. >> >> I agree. But what about the Kashmiri people? The Kashmiris themselves? Don¹t >> they have ANY stake in these geo-political stakes? Should they care? Should >> the people of India have cared when in 1947 it was inconvenient for the >> INDIAN govt to give up their Œjewel in the crown?¹ Or even in more recent >> history should it have mattered to the people of erstwhile East Pakistan how >> inconvenient it was for the government based in west Pakistan that had >> over-ruled a democratically chosen leader who happened to be from East >> Pakistan, imprisoned him and initiated the marshal law in East Pakistan, how >> terribly, terribly inconvenient it was for West Pakistan to face an united >> forced, united by language (of a kind at least)? Should they have cared? Or >> should the people of Jharkhand, Chhatisgarh or even Uttaranchal (although I >> really prefer Uttarakhand) have cared how their insisting on a state of >> their own have made their mother states to face huge revenue loss? >> >> Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India >> a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the >> North East, >> b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and India >> would not be comfortable with that going in a >> different country. >> c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not to >> try to usurp any further territory. >> d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a >> disputed territory and if any party is perceived to go >> soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult time >> to get elected again. >> So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint >> gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it >> may have to do or it may have to tolerate. >> >> Do you have any support to bolster these arguments? Especially the last? >> Many of us even on this list believe Kashmir is occupied by the Indian >> military. And incidentally I am a woman. >> >> I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there is >> the one water treaty,for them to have reservations in >> wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what >> interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those >> Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether >> there is an internal political spin to it. >> >> Now that¹s interesting. The water treaty that India has with Pakistan. Have >> you ever wondered why despite 3 wars (and these were wars where armies and >> the airforce bombarded each other and NOT the new definition of war wherein >> you pulverise a nation to dust, slap an embargo on it for 11 years, take out >> all its military strength, cry Œweapons-of-mass-destruction¹ and begin >> bombing again AGAINST the opinion of the entire world this time. India >> Pakistan at least fought some kind of a skirmish closer in meaning to the >> term Œwar¹ ), have you wondered why despite such military provocations and >> aggression, the water treaty is left sacro-sanct? AND why does you great >> government NOT have even the courtesy of language while writing water >> treaties with Bangladesh? And you can forget looking for anything like a >> treaty with Nepal. After all the economic power of this powerful state >> ensures that you can walk into Nepal even without a visa. >> >> Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region >> with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign >> state,it will also have problems with its non uniform >> demographics. There would always be some sort of >> strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of an >> option would only guarantee the continuation of some >> kind of trouble in the region. >> >> Landlocked. Scant resources. Non-uniform demography. Now that¹s interesting >> Rahul. So all nations described by these definitions should immediately >> begin to secede to their neighbour? Right? Open your school geography book >> Rahul and look at the map of the world. And please make a list of all the >> nations that must immediately cease to be as they are landlocked, with scant >> resources and with non-uniform demography. And remember you are now arguing >> with a woman. >> >> So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost >> impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would >> not allow it to happen,without consideration for >> Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. >> Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in >> the solution of the problem.Most of all the Kashmiris. >> Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense >> expenditure). A solution is a win win option for >> everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and >> pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their >> idealism;because its a matter of life and death for >> many people. >> >> Right, now we talk pragmatism. After dishing out useless, non-substantiated >> arguments now you tell me to be pragmatic. But Rahul dear, the word Romance >> is equivocally opposed to the word Pragmatic. And worlds get changed by >> romantics, not pragmatics. Don¹t believe me? Read you school books of >> history. >> >> And,above all , all concerned parties should drop this >> holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and >> come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to >> everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their >> stated positions. >> >> Who are the concerned parties? The ARKP? The film Jashn-e-azadi? Who >> exactly Rahul? >> >> By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I >> know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been a >> Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine >> theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion >> would have been the same. >> regards >> Rahul >> >> And that truly is the very unfortunate part of your mind. Despite serious >> shifts in geography, philosophy and the state of mind, your mind is fixated, >> ossified, focused, uni-directional. You don¹t know but you must send a LONG >> post about position that you can neither defend nor justify. >> >> That¹s why Rahul dear you¹re the R in my list of ARKP. Get? >> >> Now remember I have been reminding you of my gender through out? That is >> just so that you can answer these powerful words from a sender-of-post Sveta >> who I know only through her post >> >> ³ In a way lists are fairly revelatory of implicit acceptances... & are >> private mail abuses to women list subscribers not a clear sign of how >> recklessly these implicits can be performed without any check or restraint, >> and very assured that there will be no consequence to it³ >> >> I do want to believe that that is not so. That there will be consequences. >> On no other space on this world perhaps but for certain on this virtual >> space. So Rahul dear do me a favour. Look up my namesake Gargi spelled >> G-A-R-G-I (or read one of the Sarai Readers) about who she was and how she >> argued. She was finally shut up by the sage Yagyavalka, cornered by her >> arguments, because of her gender. >> >> Now today, with perhaps one hundreth of the intellectual and informational >> base of the original Gargi (BUT with access to toilet cleaners, chinese >> lawyers and the wikipedia) I challenge you Rahul to argue, with reason and >> logic without squeamishness of gender and at least construct something of >> value. Not just opinions and hot air. And if you can¹t argue with me, a >> woman, allow me to remind you of a North-Indian/ western South Asian, deeply >> patriarchal insult: wear bangles and sit at home. (I hate this saying. I am >> simply reminding you of it.) >> >> Gargi >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________ >> ________ >> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you >> all the tools to get online. >> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 23:34:51 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:34:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Censorship (Re Vishal's enquiries) In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709170915n5d39653am19c3a595e5b3867b@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709150940r35023ec3j3ef7ed707be0c01c@mail.gmail.com> <873179.39540.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <31d5ea920709170915n5d39653am19c3a595e5b3867b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709171104l292e3665ydfadfc10a0aab9c4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kashmendra, Actually, on re-reading Shuddha's comments on censorship, I realise that if we follow his line of reasoning, we do not need a censor board or censor's manual for the purpose of censoring content in any media. We need the censor board only for rating and regulating content. And then according to the rating, a film, book, TV programme (etc.) gets, its transmission should accordingly be regulated. For example, minors shall not be allowed into a theatre screening an X rated film; pornographic book material shall be placed in a demarcated area of a book store or a library and probably be sealed to prevent minors from accessing it; the TV programme shall only be telecast after a certain hour etc. The stuff Shuddha is calling censorship for, such as filmed non-consensual sexual acts, or sexual acts with minors, or libelous content in printed form etc. etc., already violate given laws (in almost all countries) and hence should automatically face the consequences for that reason. Therefore to my mind, if I were to follow Shuddha's logic, a censor board does not need its own guidebook. Hence if the censor/ regulatory authority that has been set up to award ratings to media products finds that the law of the land has probably been violated in a particular case, they can then refer that content to the law keepers. Even in your reply to me you point to the constitution of India as the guiding manuscript. Now, laws have already been set up to protect the constitution. Therefore, does it not seem appropriate that we refer to the law of the land if we feel that a film, book, TV programme etc. has violated the norm and needs to be held accountable? Has Jashn-e-Azadi broken any law? It has so far been screened only at privately organised gatherings (as per my knowledge) and thus it does not break the law of 'public screening without a censor certificate'. In fact no public broadcaster/ exhibitor would ever dare to screen a film without a censor certificate unless they want to risk their business. So let me dismiss the charge of 'screenings without a certificate' for the moment. What other law could it have broken? Can you and me use this illegality to stop its private screenings even? Or at least ensure that it can never be screened publicly? Regards, Vishal On 9/17/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > Dear Kashmendra, > > Thank you for your reply. However your long response does not answer my > main questions at all. I do understand that you cannot write down the entire > censorship manual. Fair enough. That is not what I was expecting in the > first place. But see, Shuddha in just a couple of paragraphs and with just a > few key examples managed to explain his position (even making the distiction > between different mediums - allowing somethings in text form but not as > video). I was hoping that you would be able to provide some examples of your > own and in particular discuss the reasons for censoring Jashn-e-Azadi. From > your previous posts I get the sense that you would want the film banned or > at least not have it screened till it gets a censor certificate. But I do > not want to make this inference by reading your various statements in > different postings. I would like you to make a categorical statement. Short > and crisp. I do not want to exhaust your precious time. > > So what I am asking you is this: would you ban this film and why? If you > would ban it, then can you enumerate in point form (so that it does not get > very lengthy) what your reason(s) for doing so would be. In other words, if > you were the censor, then would you allow this film to be screened in its > present form? If not, then what reasons would you give to the filmmaker for > stopping its public screenings? > > I would accept your statement as is. I am not interested in contesting > your viewpoint. I just want to understand clearly what your position is. The > essence of democracy is to allow different viewpoints to co-exist and I > would respect your position even if I did not agree with it. I would even > fight to protect your right to have a say. It may also be that you may be > able to convince me about your position through your reasoned arguments. > > You (among others) have often been accused on this list of raving and > ranting. I may not entirely agree and hence this is my attempt to get a > clear peicture from you. I hope I am not asking for too much. > > Regards, > Vishal > > > On 9/17/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Dear Vishal > > > > I have changed the Subject Line. I am sure you will understand why. Your > > name has been put so that it does not escape your attention. Will be dropped > > if this dialogue goes on. > > > > 1. You wrote """""That way depending upon "who" is in power, each time a > > different standard would be applied"""" > > > > Yes you are right, that could happen. It was and still is easily done in > > cases when the governance is Monarchical, Dictatorial etc, where the "power" > > is absolute and brooks no disagreements. > > > > In societies that have some semblance of the people having a say in who > > should govern them, it is not so easily done especially if the "changes in > > standards" are drastic. > > > > Yet, it could happen for example in India for the period that a > > particular political party is in power say for a 5 year tenure, unless it > > were "stayed" by means of a Legal challenge. If the "change in standard" is > > unacceptable to the people and evokes strong resentment, it could become the > > catalyst for a "change" of the governing political party. The new ones in > > "power" might then revert to the earlier standards in acknowledgment of > > peoples' strong feelings. > > > > Passage of time also brings in "change of standards". For any particular > > area if you froze frames of today and a particular time in the past, stark > > differences would be seen. Sometimes the differences are amazing when it > > comes to expecting that the past would be "retrograde" and the future of > > that past would have been "progressive". Subjectivity expected. > > > > 2. The "who" cannot be an individual because the individual does not > > have the right to decide for all the people. > > > > The individual can, will and should make known his/her opinion over what > > the "standards" for the collective should be. > > > > The individual practices self-regulation and self-censorship. It happens > > all the time whether it is in private conversation, corporate communication, > > public discourse or in creative expression through song, literature, > > film/video, theater, painting, sculpture, poster etc. We often curb our > > basic instincts and urges of "true to myself" and "true to my art" > > expression. > > > > 3. You (probably) have a question for me in "''''' And that brings us > > to:"what processes", "what areas" and "what evaluations" are to be > > considered??"""" > > > > My generalised comments were made over another generalised comment that > > I called a "guiding principle". > > > > It will be impossible for me touch upon alllllllll aspects contained in > > your question. At the very least I would have to talk about the Constituent > > Assembly, the Constitution, the Chapters of the Constitution and the "Rights > > and Responsibilities" contained therein, the "inviolates" and "amendables" > > in the Constitution, the Laws derived from the Constitution, the role of the > > Legislature; Executive; Judiciary and so on and on and on and on. I will > > not. As much a matter of my lack of competencies as it is of time and space. > > > > > > Please do read the Constitution of India (if you are a citizen of India > > and have not done so). It is not too daunting a task especially if you get > > the measure of rollerblading over the "whereofs" and "wheretos" and > > "thereofs" and "theretos". > > > > 4. Your phrase of "censoring a certain thing" is too generalised both in > > terms of the suggested implications as well as the areas. I could not > > possibly deal with it in it's entirety. > > > > There is for example a Censor Board for "films" which is basically a > > certifying Institution regulating what film they think is suitable for > > which age group. They may suggest cuts to the film-maker. A "totally not fit > > for exhibition film" (I do not remember what the exact term is) is a rarity > > if you consider the number of films that are put up for Certification. The > > Censor Board is supposed to be an autonomous body once it is constituted. > > There is enough evidence to suggest that it is not and is both interfered > > with and influenced/pressured. The Film Industry has been pressing for > > self-regulation > > > > Such Self-Regulatory norms and bodies do exist for the "Advertising > > Agencies" and the "Press"for example. Not very effective though in my > > opinion. > > > > Television does not have but should (in my opinion) have such regulatory > > norms especially when it comes to "child viewership". That is not enough > > though. For it to be effective "parental locks" should be mandatory on all > > Television sets. Ah! but being non-literate will be a problem for reading > > manuals and programming the "controls". > > > > The Web/Internet is another area where regulatory norms have crept in > > and will continue to do so. In India for example a few websites have been > > "blocked". In Islamic countries "filters" for "words" are used to "block" > > websites that may have objectionable content linked presumably with a > > particular word. China has reached an understanding of sorts with Google. > > Youtube had to remove content after protests. India like any other country > > (in my opinion) will establish regulatory norms/processes and arrangements > > in the future. > > > > 5. The particular film you mention has not (to the best of my knowledge) > > been put up for Certification. If I had a say, I would apply the (by now > > notorious) "Guiding Principles". That apart MY particular comments in > > connection with THAT particular film have been made in past (when you were > > very much a part of this List). If you missed them, you are most welcome to > > go over them. > > > > Take care > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > Dear KK, > > > > You said: > > Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these > > standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be > > involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for > > application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the > > life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons > > that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" > > > > But its not about "who" should decide. That way depending upon "who" is > > in power, each time a different standard would be applied. The "who" should > > therefore be the individual, and each should decide for themselves. > > > > But that does not mean that individuals can do whatever the decide to. > > There are some extreme and rare cases where restraint is necessary. And that > > brings us to:"what processes", "what areas" and "what evaluations" are to be > > considered?? > > > > Shuddha has very clearly elaborated on each and thus explained his > > position. He is not saying that everything should be allowed. "If it were > > non fiction, and non consensual [sexual act], then I would advocate strict > > censorship,..." he says - to give an example. Now according to his criteria, > > Jashn-e-Azadi is not such an extreme case, as the example he cites, so > > regardless of whether he likes the film or not, agrees with it or not, he > > feels it should not be censored. > > > > Now can you give your reasons for censoring a certain thing? What would > > you censor and why? Should Jashn-e-Azadi be censored, and if so why? Please > > state your case. Thank you. > > > > -Vishal > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Kshmendra Kaul < kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote: Dear > > Shuddhabrata > > > > Your mail is addressed to me as an individual and therefore I shall > > equally courteously respond. Soon after though, in another mail you revert > > to "let us bunch them together" routine. > > > > It is interesting that some people who celebrate an individual's > > freedoms and thereby an individual's identity in this "intellectual > > community" should so readily chorus the "I see a mob, I see a mob, attack > > the mob" shouts irrespective of how varied the opinions, positions and > > arguments might be. Pick up one issue over which there might be strong > > disagreements and on that basis dismiss all else about anyone who might even > > remotely suggest himself/herself not subscribing to your views on any topic. > > Demonise them. No good should be seen in the devils by anyone, so cloud the > > scene with "They are a mob; They are a mob; Everyone must attack the mob". > > > > It was interesting to see someone like Rahul Asthana also (who in my > > opinion is one of the "decent" correspondents on this list) get clubbed (not > > by you) with the "mob" because he might have disagreed over some issue. > > "Rahul is a part of them, Rahul is a part of the mob, beware, you must see > > Rahul as part of the mob". Amusing. > > > > I see all of this as "intellectual cowardice" and a lack of > > "intellectual ethics". Those who find it convenient to see a "mob" end up > > becoming a "mob". It is sad because it includes some extremely sharp and > > bright intellect. Individual intellect however always sacrifices itself to > > the psyche of the "mob". > > > > Let me come to what your mail was essentially about. > > > > - Naeem asked a question in the room > > - I did not see Naeem receiving an answer in the room > > - Shuddha says he answered Naeem in private and explains why he did so > > - No one in the room saw Naeem receive an answer in public for a > > question he asked in public > > - As far as any member (including me) of the room is concerned, Naeem > > did not receive an answer. > > > > So Shuddha, there is no assumption on my part as far as that domain is > > concerned where the question was asked and where no answer was given. I am > > just a simple minded Horatio of simple philosophies of the apparent. > > > > Actually Shuddha, you of all the people should be able to appreciate > > that. I remember the rather facile but the distinctinctness and separateness > > with which you sought to aggressively define "public" and "private" spaces. > > > > I wonder now who should be the candidate for your threatening admonition > > of "watch it" and the pomposity in "...makes you (more than occasionally) > > run the risk of looking foolish." > > > > Shuddha your comment about me "Your eagerness to assume the role of the > > omniscient surveillance agent of other peoples' actions and opinions" might > > sound very telling but does not make me cringe (if it was meant to) simply > > because I was very interested in seeing what answers Naeem would receive. > > For me, the answers to that question from a "neutral" observer would only > > add perspectives to the discussion about "what" or "are there any at all" > > limits that can be considered for "individual" or "collective" freedom of > > expression. > > > > Thank you Shuddha for posting your response to Naeem. I saw the most > > significant part of your response in your words: > > > > """""" In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech > > and expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a > > direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a > > person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act. > > And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I would be willing > > to endorse the censorship of. > > > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would > > not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have > > written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, that > > spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings for strong > > content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, because I find such > > material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the right to stop other people > > from watching them. > > > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and > > m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want to > > watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict > > censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above.""""""" > > > > You have very clearly given the examples and the reasoning. > > > > You have for one set of cases used the evaluating principle of "...... > > there is a direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well > > being of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant > > speech act" Could hardly be put better. > > > > So, although both "regulation" and "censorship" may be restrictive of > > the individual's right to freedom of expression or of that of the > > collective, yet have to be taken on board as possible necessities for a > > variety of reasons in a variety of situations. > > > > Both "regulation" and "censorship" cannot be an "open licence". The > > areas where they can be applied, the bases of application and the extent of > > application has to be extremely carefully thought about. > > > > Without any doubt (in my mind), the "regulatory" or "censoring" actions > > have to be sincere, honest, should not over-step the allowed briefs and not > > seek to serve hidden agendas. > > > > Disagreements (if any) perhaps boil down to WHO should lay down these > > standards, WHAT PROCESSES or 'sanctioned by Law' Institutions should be > > involved, WHAT AREAS and WHAT EVALUATIONS should be considered for > > application of the guiding principle "......there is a direct harm to the > > life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being of a person or persons > > that can be solely attributed to the relevant speech act" > > > > Shuddha, if my comments over your mail to Naeem seem like they > > misrepresent you, please do tell me (if you feel like doing so). Please make > > it specific and brief because you can very often be tediously boring and so > > convoluted that it defeats the purpose of making yourself understood, unless > > it is deliberately so strategised. > > > > In conclusion, your reference to "La La Land" is quite childish and > > hardly does credit to your intellect. Intellectual dishonesty. It was an > > expression used by me for specific reference to the attitude of "we do not > > care for the Nation, we do not believe in a Nation" (my own quote marks). It > > is hardly pertinent to this topic. Again, I see in it an attitude of "You > > are one of the mob, remember you spoke of La La Land. You must be attacked > > over it even if it has no bearing here" Sad attitude. > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > You said, > > > > "Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > > "freedoms". No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this > > "intellectual community" thought the question deserved an answer.The > > bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to > > answer." > > > > As a matter of fact, I did. Though in doing so, I did not think I was > > displaying anything by way of 'moral courage'. I thought I was simply > > haveing an exchange about the circumstances in which I would countenance > > or endorse, or at least not object to censorship. > > > > I answered Naeem off list. I wrote to him, personally, On the same day, > > in less than four hours after Naeem had posted his query. I enclose > > below (at the end of this post) the relevant excerpt from what I wrote > > to him. > > > > (I hope Naeem will not object, and I apologize to Naeem, and to the list > > for posting a private off-list conversation on the list, although it wa > > provoked by an on-list query,for reasons of clarification, and > > tangentially, to defend the honour, if you like, of 'La La Land'.) > > > > I did not think it necessary then to post this to the list because it > > consists in the main, of a quotation from something that I had already > > posted on the list, and that too recently, with some elaboration. I > > thought it would be a tad repetitive. But anyway, since it makes my > > position on censorship very clear,I am happy to include it, at the risk > > of repetitiveness. > > > > Once again, Kshemendra, watch it. Don't be so hasty in the making of > > assumptions about what other people might have done, or not have done. > > Your eagerness to assume the role of the omniscient surveillance agent > > of other peoples' actions and opinions makes you (more than > > occasionally) run the risk of looking foolish. > > > > Take Care, don't stumble, don't rush, the surfaces you fall on are very > > hard. 'La La Land' is not a gentle sort of place. > > > > Shuddha > > > > My reply to Naeem (with the time and date stamp) is below. > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: Re: urgent > > Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:55:51 +0530 > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net > > Organization: Sarai > > To: Naeem Mohaiemen > > References: > > > > Dear Naeem, > > > > ... I did write about what I would censor, some time back, in the > > post titled 'The Attack on Taslima Nasrin in Hyderabad I' posted on the > > 18th of August, and maybe it is pertinent to what you wrote and this is > > - > > > > "Similarly, if someone were to post photographic representations of > > children or animals in a pornographic form on any web forum or any other > > > > platform, I would call for its censorship, not because it is > > pornographic but because its implies sexual actions with implicitly > > unverifiable consent. Here, i would maintain that a drawn or written (as > > opposed to photographic) representation would not qualify in my view for > > > > censorship, though I would strongly criticse such a representation. > > Similarly, I would personally call for the censorship of the snuff > > videos of acts of beheading that jihadist groups in Iraq and elsewhere > > in the world are so fond of displaying on internet forums, or the > > photographic representations of hangings and public executions that the > > fascist and totalitarian regimes in Iran and China sometimes put out > > Not because I have a problem with the representation of violence per se, > > > > but because in these cases the act of representation itself is a > > violation of the liberty of those who are being killed. No one has asked > > them (the executed) for their consent to have their beheading or hanging > > put on public display. > > > > In each of these cases, i would call for the regulation of speech and > > expression because I believe that in each of these cases there is a > > direct harm to the life, or health, or liberty. or personal well being > > of a person or persons that can be solely attributed to the relevant > > speech act. And these are the only forms of speech or expression that I > > would be willing to endorse the censorship of." > > > > My personal view is, if the films you mention were fiction, then I would > > > > not censor them, but I have no problem with giving them a rating, I have > > written about it elsewhere, i have no problems with a ratings system, > > that spells out what is unsuitable for children, and carries warnings > > for strong content. If they were fiction, I would not watch them, > > because I find such material disgusting. BUt I dont think I have the > > right to stop other people from watching them. > > > > If it were non fiction, but were consensual, as in a bit of rough s and > > m, again, I would not watch, but would not advocate that those who want > > to watch (and perform) should not be allowed to do so. > > > > If it were non fiction, and non consensual, then I would advocate strict > > censorship, for the reasons I have spelt out above. > > > > Please post this argument if you find it necessary, I am a bit tired of > > posting on the list by now. > > > > thanks > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Ten days back, Naeem Mohaiemen posted a question "Is There Nothing You > > would Censor". It was pertinent to the then ongoing discussion about > > "freedoms". > > > > > > No one answered him. None of the leading lights of this "intellectual > > community" thought the question deserved an answer. > > > > > > The bunch of 'La La Land" hypocrites did not have the moral courage to > > answer. > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > PS: > > > Dear Naeem > > > > > > It might upset you that the likes of me should be using your posting > > to make a point. You might ignore it, but if I receive a sharp retort from > > you, I will understand. > > > > > > KK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > > The question was asked repeatedly on Sarai list recently, "are there > > > films whose screenings you would stop"? > > > > > > Could it be, that even now, there are certain lines to be drawn? Read > > on.... > > > > > > > > > Already Under Fire, a Producer Is Going Further > > > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > > > Published: June 25, 2007 > > > > > > ...Having already provoked parents, women's groups and the ratings > > > board with explicit ads for the coming torture movie ''Captivity,'' > > > Mr. Solomon and his After Dark Films now intend to introduce the film, > > > > > set for release July 13, with a party that may set a new standard for > > > the politically incorrect. > > > > > > ...But the warren of live torture rooms is a must. As Mr. Solomon > > > envisions it, individuals in torture gear will wander through the West > > > > > Hollywood club Privilege grabbing partygoers. All of which is a > > > prelude to an undisclosed main event that, he warned last week over > > > slices of pizza a few doors from his company's new offices on the > > > Sunset Strip, is ''probably not legal.'' "'The women's groups > > > definitely will love it,'' Mr. Solomon hinted. ''I call it my personal > > > little tribute to them.'' > > > > > > Mr. Solomon, a fast-talking 35-year-old, and his genre-film company > > > were barely noticed until outrage at the ''Captivity'' billboards -- > > > which chronicled a young woman's torment, with frames titled > > > ''Abduction,'' ''Confinement,'' ''Torture,'' ''Termination'' -- led to > > > a rare censure by the Motion Picture Association of America this > > > spring. > > > > > > When the association's ratings board suspended its process for a month > > > as a punitive measure, ''Captivity'' missed its May release date and > > > was bumped to June 22. But Bob Weinstein and his Dimension Films > > > wanted that date for their competing horror film ''1408,'' and he > > > persuaded Mr. Solomon to swap for Friday, July 13. Mr. Solomon quickly > > > called that Friday ''Captivity Day.'' > > > > > > ...These added explicit torture , including a so-called ''milkshake'' > > > scene that involves body parts and a blender, to a picture that was > > > largely psychological in its thrust when After Dark acquired the > > > rights to it. > > > > > > Government to Take a Hard Look at Horror > > > By MICHAEL CIEPLY/NYT > > > Published: March 24, 2007 > > > > > > > > > ...Earlier this week, After Dark and Lionsgate scrambled to contain > > > the public-relations damage after a Los Angeles Times columnist quoted > > > several young students objecting to an especially gruesome billboard > > > for ''Captivity'' near their middle school. After Dark, which is > > > expected to release the film on May 18 with Lionsgate, quickly agreed > > > to pull part of its ad campaign. > > > > > > ....Horror aficionados date the genre's current flourishing to October > > > 2004. The first of Lionsgate's ''Saw'' movies, about a demonically > > > inventive serial killer, opened to a surprisingly strong $18 million > > > on its first weekend, though it lacked an expensive cast or a > > > pedigreed filmmaker. Sequels, imitators and close cousins soon > > > followed. > > > > > > ...Fox Atomic, a division formed by Fox Searchlight to cultivate the > > > late-teenage and early-adult audience, on March 6 placed an ad for its > > > film ''The Hills Have Eyes 2'' with an evening showing of > > > ''Dodgeball,'' rated PG-13, on FX. The ad identified ''Hills,'' about > > > National Guard trainees brutally murdered by mutants, as being not yet > > > rated, though film association guidelines call for the disclosure of > > > ratings in ads, and the company had accepted an R rating the day > > > before. John Hegeman, Fox Atomic's chief operating officer, said the R > > > rating was missing because it takes about two days to alter a > > > television spot > > > > > > ....official sites for R-rated fare -- deal with > > > Bloody-disgusting.com , Arrow in the > > Head (joblo.com/arrow ), > > > Fangoria.com , or any of another dozen such Web > > sites. > > > (Bloody-disgusting, for example, includes chat forums that address > > > such questions as: ''Can anyone suggest a good torture-esk > > > movie?'')...The operators of several such sites said they had no way > > > of knowing how many of their visitors were under 17, but believed the > > > numbers were substantial. ''The horror site skews a little more toward > > > > > the younger ones,'' said Berge Garabedian, founder of the Joblo.com > > > film site and its associated Arrow in the Head horror section, which > > > this week carried a banner ad for an unrated DVD of ''Sublime,'' about > > > > > gruesome murder in a hospital, from Warner Home Video. Mr. Garabedian > > > said he tried to block visitors under 15 from discussion boards in > > > order to eliminate ''a lot of MySpace craziness,'' but thought a > > > considerable share of his Arrow in the Head visitors to be in the > > > 13-to-18-year-old age range. > > > > > > ....Experian Simmons Research found that 12 percent of respondents > > > between the ages of 12 and 17 reported watching ''Saw II'' in > > > theaters, while 12 percent said they had seen the film on DVD, and 26 > > > percent reported viewing any horror in theaters. In its 2004 report, > > > the Federal Trade Commission said that in 36 percent of their > > > attempts, its underage ''mystery shoppers'' were able to buy a movie > > > ticket without an age check in theaters, down somewhat from about half > > > in 2000. Meanwhile 81 percent of the young buyers obtained R-rated > > > DVDs without a check. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > > Yahoo! FareChase. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. > > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get > > listings, and more! > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 23:38:08 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:08:08 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709171000j47e90a5ahd5b8bb7be9748eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> <46EE1118.4060608@sarai.net> <9c06aab30709170541s176f09a6pf2a15257cfc79e30@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709171000j47e90a5ahd5b8bb7be9748eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EEC288.1050101@googlemail.com> Pawan, If you care about ecology, don't you think that should be because it has a value in itself, regardless of whether or not it has value as sacred ground/water? If the channel had no mythology attached, would it be ok to alter its ecosystem? The meaning of "more so" is not clear to me. The way I see it, it is either worth preserving or it is not. Can't be both. As for the BJP and VHP, which have shown complete insensitivity to ecological issues, would you like to see them hijack a major ecological issue for their own political ends? As someone who is concerned about ecology, are you not concerned that this would hurt the eco movement? Tapas Pawan Durani wrote: > For me > > 1. Sethu Samudram is a matter of faith. > 2. I care about Ecology , more so when fiddling with it causes discomfort to > faith of billions. > > I do not care for about BJP or VHP , as long as I do not need their support > to strengthen my cause. And in this project if they do something which halts > the project , i dont mind. > > It does not mean I am necessarily going to vote for them. > > Any more candid answer needed from me ? > > Pawan > > > On 9/17/07, Shivam Vij wrote: >> I do, Shuddha. Don't you, Pawan? The BJP-VHP-RSS joint family can't >> appropriate ecological concerns when it comes to Sethusundaram, and refuse >> to answer them when it comes to the Hindu Bomb. Surely Pawan, you condemn >> such hypocrisy? >> best >> shivam >> >> On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >>> Dear Pawan, >>> >>> Thank you for your appreciation of my concern. Since I do not share your >>> faith, I cannot take that into consideration in my assessment of the >>> Sethusamudran Project. But since I do share your ecological, >>> developmental and financial concerns, I fully agree with you that the >>> Sethusamudran Project is going to be a disaster. >>> >>> Now since you share my ecological, financial and developmental concerns >>> (and whether or not you do share my attitude to questions of faith, on >>> which we can agree to disagree) I do hope you will share in my >>> condemnation of the Nuclear Tests in Pokhran, the military occupation of >>> the Siachen glacier, the Narmada Dam and the 'canalization' plan >>> proposed by the Bharatiya Janata Party as an alternative to the >>> Sethusamduran Project. Because these are and have been all ecological, >>> developmental and financial disasters. >>> >>> You do, don't you? >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Shuddha (not Gargi) >>> From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 04:41:34 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709161100o23f110f5k8da94ddd67536b09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <252170.40798.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Vishal, Actually,some emails from the list are going to trash.Thats why I missed your email.Sorry about that. Please find my replies inline. >However, it does not > necessarily mean that everyone > has to agree with you. Other people have a right to > their own viewpoints > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your > views. I am not here to convince or defeat someone in discussion.I am here to discuss,thats why I am talking with you.I have tried to maintain this tone and will continue to do so. > Many successive Indian governments have tried the > policy that you are > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now > what to do? What is the > correct solution? Can you put it down step by step, > just like you put down > all the problems point by point? Indian government is not trying for a solution.They are happy in a status quo.After all,in a democracy every party wants to save their kursi.Why would they take a decision that can jeopardise it? So any solution has to be initiated by the biggest stakeholders,the kashmiris.I would love to brainstorm for the correct solution.I will put forward my views on this when I have more time,in a week or two. > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution, > which was: withdrawal > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian > and under Pakistani > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space > to decide - after > considering all the problems that you mentioned - > whether they want to be > independent or be with either country (entirely or > partly, as in partly > autonomous). I have one very big problem with this solution.This is too optimistic and unrealistic.We can keep writing emails and discussing and signing online petitions,but there will be no result.There has been no change in the last 60 years and I do not see any indication in the foreseeable future.The reason is what I listed in my earlier email.India has too much at stake in Kashmir.It just cant\wont withdraw. I will write a more detailed email about the solution in some time. Regards Rahul --- Vishal Rawlley wrote: > Dear Rahul, > > After you posted your problems with > self-determination in Kashmir, I had > replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you a > question: we now know the > problems you have pointed out, but we want to know > your proposed solution, > can you post your answer please. Thank you. > > >> > In response to Rahul I had said: > > Very well said. You have a right to your own > opinions and have provided good > reasoning for it too. However, it does not > necessarily mean that everyone > has to agree with you. Other people have a right to > their own viewpoints > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your > views. If you are > convinced that your views are superior than others, > then its their loss that > they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes > to decide the best > viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile keep > refining your arguments. > Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who > won't listen. > > Many successive Indian governments have tried the > policy that you are > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now > what to do? What is the > correct solution? Can you put it down step by step, > just like you put down > all the problems point by point? > > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution, > which was: withdrawal > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian > and under Pakistani > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space > to decide - after > considering all the problems that you mentioned - > whether they want to be > independent or be with either country (entirely or > partly, as in partly > autonomous). > > I do not know this if solution of theirs will work, > what do you think? Maybe > this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide and > they might kill each > other some more before they arrive at a plan. But at > least they will not be > able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems > better than wasting our > money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us > forcefully. > > Do you have a better plan? Tell us please. > > -Vishal > > > > > > On 9/16/07, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > I do not see the email shveta replied to in the > > list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my > > response to Vishal and it has my argument as to > why > > the nation may resort to censorship in some > cases-to > > be specific,why it would censor something that > > promotes self determination in Kashmir. > > Here goes again.If it was already posted to the > > list,my apologies. > > > > Hi Vishal, > > That was a great post.I mean the original one.I > find > > my faculties of expression inadequate to connect > to > > passionate people in general and ladies in > > particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of > > "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again. > > Now,many people think that A united and > independent > > Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just > solution to > > this 60 year old dispute. > > This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont > > think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but > who > > are the stakeholders in such type of a > > solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required > here. > > What I or you think should happen, would not > affect > > reality one bit. > > Nations dont work on such canonical moral > > principles.For getting anywhere near to the > solution > > of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip > with > > realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit > from > > an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir > itself.As > > for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN > > reiterates a policy of non interference and > > bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb > the > > other party to come to a solution. Nor can any > country > > bleed the other to a point of submission by > terrorism > > etc. > > Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India > > a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in > the > > North East, > > b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and > India > > would not be comfortable with that going in a > > different country. > > c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not > to > > try to usurp any further territory. > > d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a > > disputed territory and if any party is perceived > to go > > soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult > time > > to get elected again. > > So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint > > gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting > it > > may have to do or it may have to tolerate. > > I dont know much about Pakistani politics but > there is > > the one water treaty,for them to have reservations > in > > wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what > > interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those > > Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or > whether > > there is an internal political spin to it. > > Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked > region > > with scant resources. If it does become a > sovereign > > state,it will also have problems with its non > uniform > > demographics. There would always be some sort of > > strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour > of an > > option would only guarantee the continuation of > some > > kind of trouble in the region. > > So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost > > impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, > would > > not allow it to happen,without consideration for > > Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. > > Not to say that all the people dont have a stake > in > > the solution of the problem.Most of all the > Kashmiris. > > Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense > > expenditure). A solution is a win win option for > > everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic > and > > pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their > > idealism;because its a matter of life and death > for > > many people. > > And,above all , all concerned parties should drop > this > > holier-than-thou charade of self determination, > and > > come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to > > everyone,and everyone will have to budge from > their > > stated positions. > > By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as > I > > know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been > a > > > Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine > > theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my > opinion > > would have been the same. > > regards > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 04:41:34 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709161100o23f110f5k8da94ddd67536b09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <751132.12981.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Vishal, Actually,some emails from the list are going to trash.Thats why I missed your email.Sorry about that. Please find my replies inline. >However, it does not > necessarily mean that everyone > has to agree with you. Other people have a right to > their own viewpoints > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your > views. I am not here to convince or defeat someone in discussion.I am here to discuss,thats why I am talking with you.I have tried to maintain this tone and will continue to do so. > Many successive Indian governments have tried the > policy that you are > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now > what to do? What is the > correct solution? Can you put it down step by step, > just like you put down > all the problems point by point? Indian government is not trying for a solution.They are happy in a status quo.After all,in a democracy every party wants to save their kursi.Why would they take a decision that can jeopardise it? So any solution has to be initiated by the biggest stakeholders,the kashmiris.I would love to brainstorm for the correct solution.I will put forward my views on this when I have more time,in a week or two. > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution, > which was: withdrawal > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian > and under Pakistani > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space > to decide - after > considering all the problems that you mentioned - > whether they want to be > independent or be with either country (entirely or > partly, as in partly > autonomous). I have one very big problem with this solution.This is too optimistic and unrealistic.We can keep writing emails and discussing and signing online petitions,but there will be no result.There has been no change in the last 60 years and I do not see any indication in the foreseeable future.The reason is what I listed in my earlier email.India has too much at stake in Kashmir.It just cant\wont withdraw. I will write a more detailed email about the solution in some time. Regards Rahul --- Vishal Rawlley wrote: > Dear Rahul, > > After you posted your problems with > self-determination in Kashmir, I had > replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you a > question: we now know the > problems you have pointed out, but we want to know > your proposed solution, > can you post your answer please. Thank you. > > >> > In response to Rahul I had said: > > Very well said. You have a right to your own > opinions and have provided good > reasoning for it too. However, it does not > necessarily mean that everyone > has to agree with you. Other people have a right to > their own viewpoints > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your > views. If you are > convinced that your views are superior than others, > then its their loss that > they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes > to decide the best > viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile keep > refining your arguments. > Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who > won't listen. > > Many successive Indian governments have tried the > policy that you are > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now > what to do? What is the > correct solution? Can you put it down step by step, > just like you put down > all the problems point by point? > > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution, > which was: withdrawal > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian > and under Pakistani > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space > to decide - after > considering all the problems that you mentioned - > whether they want to be > independent or be with either country (entirely or > partly, as in partly > autonomous). > > I do not know this if solution of theirs will work, > what do you think? Maybe > this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide and > they might kill each > other some more before they arrive at a plan. But at > least they will not be > able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems > better than wasting our > money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us > forcefully. > > Do you have a better plan? Tell us please. > > -Vishal > > > > > > On 9/16/07, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > I do not see the email shveta replied to in the > > list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my > > response to Vishal and it has my argument as to > why > > the nation may resort to censorship in some > cases-to > > be specific,why it would censor something that > > promotes self determination in Kashmir. > > Here goes again.If it was already posted to the > > list,my apologies. > > > > Hi Vishal, > > That was a great post.I mean the original one.I > find > > my faculties of expression inadequate to connect > to > > passionate people in general and ladies in > > particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of > > "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again. > > Now,many people think that A united and > independent > > Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just > solution to > > this 60 year old dispute. > > This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont > > think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but > who > > are the stakeholders in such type of a > > solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required > here. > > What I or you think should happen, would not > affect > > reality one bit. > > Nations dont work on such canonical moral > > principles.For getting anywhere near to the > solution > > of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip > with > > realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit > from > > an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir > itself.As > > for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN > > reiterates a policy of non interference and > > bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb > the > > other party to come to a solution. Nor can any > country > > bleed the other to a point of submission by > terrorism > > etc. > > Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India > > a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in > the > > North East, > > b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and > India > > would not be comfortable with that going in a > > different country. > > c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not > to > > try to usurp any further territory. > > d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a > > disputed territory and if any party is perceived > to go > > soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult > time > > to get elected again. > > So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint > > gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting > it > > may have to do or it may have to tolerate. > > I dont know much about Pakistani politics but > there is > > the one water treaty,for them to have reservations > in > > wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what > > interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those > > Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or > whether > > there is an internal political spin to it. > > Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked > region > > with scant resources. If it does become a > sovereign > > state,it will also have problems with its non > uniform > > demographics. There would always be some sort of > > strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour > of an > > option would only guarantee the continuation of > some > > kind of trouble in the region. > > So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost > > impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, > would > > not allow it to happen,without consideration for > > Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. > > Not to say that all the people dont have a stake > in > > the solution of the problem.Most of all the > Kashmiris. > > Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense > > expenditure). A solution is a win win option for > > everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic > and > > pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their > > idealism;because its a matter of life and death > for > > many people. > > And,above all , all concerned parties should drop > this > > holier-than-thou charade of self determination, > and > > come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to > > everyone,and everyone will have to budge from > their > > stated positions. > > By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as > I > > know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been > a > > > Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine > > theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my > opinion > > would have been the same. > > regards > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 04:51:51 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir... In-Reply-To: <20070916115819.13339.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <57702.47469.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Junaid, The points about landlockedness and size etc are to be taken as part of the whole picture.I agree that taking each point in isolation you will find examples that will contradict my points. The biggest point is that India can unilaterally maintain the status quo.Lets just argue about that. If you want to know my opinion,I would want such a solution in which there is no police state;no army occupation.I do not care if Kashmir stays with India or not.I did not want to bring my values into this debate because they do not matter in the long run. But if your argument is on the lines of "Hum honge kaamyaab ek din"..no matter how many people die,then there is nothing to argue. A very sincere all the best to you. regards Rahul --- junaid wrote: >  I wonder how the mainstream Indian discourse on > Kashmir has been internalized, so much that > independence for Kashmir as a non-possibility is > seen as natural and obvious. What is it that makes > even the Indian Kashmir-sympathizers take > anything-short-of-independence as axiomatic? Why > can't anyone here make a reasonable, educated > argument about why this should be the case? > > Do not speak of size, for Kashmir (valley) is > definitely larger than many countries in the world. > If you speak of its land-lockedness, then I can > count you a number of European and Asian countries > that are small and land-locked. If you speak of > three Asian bullies—India, Pakistan and > China—surrounding it, then I must say international > treaties, bilateral non-aggression pacts, and > Kashmir's neutrality will be Kashmir's best defense. > Aren't so many small countries surviving, and > actually doing well, with really no defense in > place, but just goodwill and international norms? If > you say, lack of economic self-reliance, then I will > just point to the great natural and human resources > in Kashmir. > > And if it is a unique case, then let it be a unique > country in the world. Weak, Poor, and Defenceless. > But a country whose people are the masters of their > fate. > > If you are still stuck up on "anything-short-of..." > argument then I must tell you Kashmiris really don’t > give a damn. They fight for freedom, and they will > surely learn how to handle it. Before British left > Indian subcontinent, they used to make a similar > argument. The Indian visionaries made the counter > argument that you can't learn to love freedom and > democracy unless you taste it. Although Indians have > not come up to the expectations, and its > elite--Brahmanical as well as corporate--have > cozened and defrauded the lower castes and the poor, > yet India is not doing that badly. Since Kashmir is > not beset with so many contradictions like > post-independence India, I guess it will outdo India > in preserving freedom. > > Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 04:51:51 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir... In-Reply-To: <20070916115819.13339.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <527944.83872.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Junaid, The points about landlockedness and size etc are to be taken as part of the whole picture.I agree that taking each point in isolation you will find examples that will contradict my points. The biggest point is that India can unilaterally maintain the status quo.Lets just argue about that. If you want to know my opinion,I would want such a solution in which there is no police state;no army occupation.I do not care if Kashmir stays with India or not.I did not want to bring my values into this debate because they do not matter in the long run. But if your argument is on the lines of "Hum honge kaamyaab ek din"..no matter how many people die,then there is nothing to argue. A very sincere all the best to you. regards Rahul --- junaid wrote: >  I wonder how the mainstream Indian discourse on > Kashmir has been internalized, so much that > independence for Kashmir as a non-possibility is > seen as natural and obvious. What is it that makes > even the Indian Kashmir-sympathizers take > anything-short-of-independence as axiomatic? Why > can't anyone here make a reasonable, educated > argument about why this should be the case? > > Do not speak of size, for Kashmir (valley) is > definitely larger than many countries in the world. > If you speak of its land-lockedness, then I can > count you a number of European and Asian countries > that are small and land-locked. If you speak of > three Asian bullies—India, Pakistan and > China—surrounding it, then I must say international > treaties, bilateral non-aggression pacts, and > Kashmir's neutrality will be Kashmir's best defense. > Aren't so many small countries surviving, and > actually doing well, with really no defense in > place, but just goodwill and international norms? If > you say, lack of economic self-reliance, then I will > just point to the great natural and human resources > in Kashmir. > > And if it is a unique case, then let it be a unique > country in the world. Weak, Poor, and Defenceless. > But a country whose people are the masters of their > fate. > > If you are still stuck up on "anything-short-of..." > argument then I must tell you Kashmiris really don’t > give a damn. They fight for freedom, and they will > surely learn how to handle it. Before British left > Indian subcontinent, they used to make a similar > argument. The Indian visionaries made the counter > argument that you can't learn to love freedom and > democracy unless you taste it. Although Indians have > not come up to the expectations, and its > elite--Brahmanical as well as corporate--have > cozened and defrauded the lower castes and the poor, > yet India is not doing that badly. Since Kashmir is > not beset with so many contradictions like > post-independence India, I guess it will outdo India > in preserving freedom. > > Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 05:17:45 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 05:17:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709150228x63dd099eh54a1b02292cd9603@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> <46EB5EE1.1080909@sarai.net> <31d5ea920709150228x63dd099eh54a1b02292cd9603@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709171647u54900387yad2a17d0f7c2d4a5@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Kabi had suggested: what about marathi, gujarati, hindi urdu newpapers. or getting some reporter on the local english/vernacular tv stations interested in doing a piece. It seems like a good idea to try the vernacular/ local media. For all the publicity Typocity got in the English press, it seems to have had very little effect. Does someone have a contact I can use? I am also thinking that a sticker campaign (a little mark pasted on the side of a sign) and a certification system wherein all heritage signs are recognised as such and marked accordingly, might help. All such signs would then be able to apply for funds for their upkeep or automatically go to the signage museum if it has to be dismantled. If old signs were to be regularly maintained, then the old sign makers would also find some employment. An 'Adopt a Sign' system could be used to raise funds for individual signs from patrons from the local community - or a wider community by auctioning the sign through its images on the internet. (Hmmm... I will have to become an NGO then! I find myself wishing for a signage fairy who flits about Bombay streets brightening up and restoring the old signs in the night) Any further suggestions? Best, v On 9/15/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > Conversation thread started from> http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ > > Dear Shuddha, Aman, Kabi (and the additional people this is going out to) > > The Typocity project (documenting signage and typeface in Mumbai - > www.typocity.com) has been well publicised. It was featured in the Mid > Day, talked about in Time Out, DNA people know about it; it was also > featured in several art and design magazines. We also conducted a number of > presentations and workshops in collages and other forums. I have also > personally spoken to many shop and restaurant owners about preserving their > old signage (one restaurant owner even has a laminated printout of the > typocity website page featuring his restaurant proudly displayed at the > counter). > > Months of labour on the project over three years had left me exhausted. > But it is now time to revisit it and take stock. Change is inevitable and no > matter what you and me think, the individual proprietors will make their own > aesthetic choice and pragmatic decisions. So some signs went away and I > could only sigh. However what got my goti is when I rushed into the Eastern > Watch shop to scold and complain to the owner for changing the sign, only to > realise that it was the BMC that forced him into this. Another regret was > that I had never managed to get a picture of this landmark sign because of > sheer bad luck and this haunted me whenever I passed by and each time I > reminded myself to do it soon, and then I saw it gone. Damn! But luckily the > owner has a a photograph from 1920s (that is what he claims about the old > photo I had posted. See: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ and > www.easternwatch.in ) which shows the original signage. It would have been > wonderful to compare this with a recent photograph of the same sign and see > how immaculate it still was - in bright red colours. I noticed the sign's > disappearance after I returned from a long trip abroad. I wonder whether > there are others who noticed this disappearance. (The PUKAR ( > www.pukar.org.in) office and the Times of India office are both a stone's > throw away from Eastern Watch.) > > Another thing is that the recent corporate retail boom is speeding up the > demise of private businesses. Old shops are becoming franchises or revamping > themselves to look just like one. So along with the BMC's callousness, this > has given me the impetus to revisit the Typocity project. > > What I need help with is in connecting with some heritage lobbyists, or > better, a BMC officer who would listen. Could I use the RTI act in some way? > I am very inept at submitting forms, filing applications and drafting formal > letters. Government departments spook me out, but I can learn. And yes > additional campaigners will surely help. When you do see a good signage, > please tell the shop/ restaurant/ depot owner that what they have is > precious - this is a really effective approach. Please tell them that they > should never convert their bakery into a Foodland and do buy as many cakes > you can from them. (The lady at American Express bakery remembers me for > this. Printouts of ads from old newspapers about this 1930s institution are > proudly framed even in their new branch now.) Many owners already have an > attachment to the old world and all it needs is a young person to reaffirm > the charm and then they can get very protective about their heritage on > their own. > > In certain cities some nice attempts have been made to restore old signs. > In Chicago, for example, the new owners try to retain the old sign even if > it is not relevant to their business. A hip cafeteria will retain the sign > of the clock repair shop that they have now come to occupy, and even call > their cafe Clockworks Cafe. It is a crusade against indiscriminate > advertising. Can Foodland be perhaps made to see some sense? Can their sign > say Kayani Stores - and in small: a Foodland outlet. Couldn't it even be a > nice business model, as people like to buy food from an old and trusted > place. In Montreal some people are collecting old signs that have to be > taken off and are trying to create a museum for these. Funds for this are > collected, for now, from private donors and the storage space has been > obtained for free. > > So if you know advertising people from the agencies that are designing the > branding for Foodland and Spencer's and Farm Fresh please speak to them. If > you know gallery owners or industrialists with some vacant warehouse space, > please ask them if they could store some precious signs in there for a > while. If through signage reform we can create an awareness about a certain > ethos, then it might even impact architecture design and shop layout design > and city planning! A signage movement is easier to proceed with than > fighting the builders lobby. But if a certain ethos catches on then the > trend followers shall simply follow. > > Thanks for your ideas and suggestions so far. I look forward to all the > press support and any other inputs that can help this cause. I am not > leading this movement; it is as much anyone's cause as mine as long as they > feel the same way about signage and heritage and advertising etc. So do > write in. > > Thanks, > Vishal > > > p.s. Shuddha, I do know about www.dafont.com and we did make digital > typefaces out of some found fonts (a very tedious exercise, as not all > characters of the font-set are present in the found font.) Some enthusiastic > students from typography major in J J school of arts have shown a keen > interest in this area and anyone else who finds a typeface they like on the > Typocity website - without needing to scour the city - is free to make a > font out of it. This can be an on ongoing exercise. Some people want to > commercialise this whole venture - I am not very keen. My main interest > is in seeing the heritage signs where they belong rather than on my screen > or on a T-shirt.) > > > On 9/15/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vishal, > > > > Many thanks for your posting on disappearing signage. As an avowed fan > > of typographic curiosities I have long been an admirer of your efforts > > to document the typographic diversity of Bombay. > > > > I share your concern about the disappearance of signage, because of the > > ham handed ways in which 'heritage' is interpreted by municipal > > authorities. Perhaps one thing that could be done is a small travelling > > exhibition based on your work in colleges, and other arts institutions > > in Bombay. And with your documentation, it should not be impossible to > > convince some of the Bombay papers, say DNA or Mid Day, or even Time Out > > > > Mumbai to publish some articles on the subject. Then maybe, the > > 'heritage' lobby itself may be persuaded to step in and realize that the > > typographic history of Bombay is as much a part of 'heritage' as > > anything else. I am sure that there are some people from DNA and Mid Day > > on this list. > > > > Perhaps they could come out and take this forward. I thought I would > > post in reply to your post because typography is somthing that I feel > > really strongly about, > > > > I hope that other people come up with other suggestions, > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > Friends, > > > > > > In 2002 the Typocity project ( www.typocity.com) was initiated to > > document > > > typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of Bombay. Since then, > > many of > > > the old signs that we documented are slowly vanishing. However, I was > > most > > > distressed to find that some of this heritage is being destroyed by > > the > > > municipal corporation itself in the name of protecting and > > > restoring heritage structures. Nothing can be more absurd. > > > > > > Please follow this link to see the pictures of replaced signs and find > > out > > > more: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ Do excuse the quality of > > some of > > > the recent pictures as they were taken on the spur with a > > phone-camera. If > > > anyone has better pictures of the recently replaced Eastern Watch sign > > > > > please share it with me. > > > > > > I am desperately looking for suggestions and ideas to counter this > > lack of > > > sensitivity by the municipal corporation. I shall be very grateful for > > any > > > help. > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > Vishal > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 06:03:12 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:03:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <252170.40798.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <31d5ea920709161100o23f110f5k8da94ddd67536b09@mail.gmail.com> <252170.40798.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709171733s4e8ae59cmedd18570c8acf454@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul, Thank you for your reply. I look forward to your detailed response when you can. Best, Vishal On 9/18/07, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Dear Vishal, > > Actually,some emails from the list are going to > trash.Thats why I missed your email.Sorry about that. > Please find my replies inline. > >However, it does not > > necessarily mean that everyone > > has to agree with you. Other people have a right to > > their own viewpoints > > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your > > views. > I am not here to convince or defeat someone in > discussion.I am here to discuss,thats why I am talking > with you.I have tried to maintain this tone and will > continue to do so. > > Many successive Indian governments have tried the > > policy that you are > > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now > > what to do? What is the > > correct solution? Can you put it down step by step, > > just like you put down > > all the problems point by point? > Indian government is not trying for a solution.They > are happy in a status quo.After all,in a democracy > every party wants to save their kursi.Why would they > take a decision that can jeopardise it? So any > solution has to be initiated by the biggest > stakeholders,the kashmiris.I would love to brainstorm > for the correct solution.I will put forward my views > on this when I have more time,in a week or two. > > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution, > > which was: withdrawal > > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian > > and under Pakistani > > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space > > to decide - after > > considering all the problems that you mentioned - > > whether they want to be > > independent or be with either country (entirely or > > partly, as in partly > > autonomous). > I have one very big problem with this solution.This is > too optimistic and unrealistic.We can keep writing > emails and discussing and signing online petitions,but > there will be no result.There has been no change in > the last 60 years and I do not see any indication in > the foreseeable future.The reason is what I listed in > my earlier email.India has too much at stake in > Kashmir.It just cant\wont withdraw. > > I will write a more detailed email about the solution > in some time. > > Regards > Rahul > > > --- Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > After you posted your problems with > > self-determination in Kashmir, I had > > replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you a > > question: we now know the > > problems you have pointed out, but we want to know > > your proposed solution, > > can you post your answer please. Thank you. > > > > >> > > In response to Rahul I had said: > > > > Very well said. You have a right to your own > > opinions and have provided good > > reasoning for it too. However, it does not > > necessarily mean that everyone > > has to agree with you. Other people have a right to > > their own viewpoints > > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your > > views. If you are > > convinced that your views are superior than others, > > then its their loss that > > they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes > > to decide the best > > viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile keep > > refining your arguments. > > Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who > > won't listen. > > > > Many successive Indian governments have tried the > > policy that you are > > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now > > what to do? What is the > > correct solution? Can you put it down step by step, > > just like you put down > > all the problems point by point? > > > > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution, > > which was: withdrawal > > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian > > and under Pakistani > > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space > > to decide - after > > considering all the problems that you mentioned - > > whether they want to be > > independent or be with either country (entirely or > > partly, as in partly > > autonomous). > > > > I do not know this if solution of theirs will work, > > what do you think? Maybe > > this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide and > > they might kill each > > other some more before they arrive at a plan. But at > > least they will not be > > able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems > > better than wasting our > > money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us > > forcefully. > > > > Do you have a better plan? Tell us please. > > > > -Vishal > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/16/07, Rahul Asthana > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi All, > > > I do not see the email shveta replied to in the > > > list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my > > > response to Vishal and it has my argument as to > > why > > > the nation may resort to censorship in some > > cases-to > > > be specific,why it would censor something that > > > promotes self determination in Kashmir. > > > Here goes again.If it was already posted to the > > > list,my apologies. > > > > > > Hi Vishal, > > > That was a great post.I mean the original one.I > > find > > > my faculties of expression inadequate to connect > > to > > > passionate people in general and ladies in > > > particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of > > > "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again. > > > Now,many people think that A united and > > independent > > > Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just > > solution to > > > this 60 year old dispute. > > > This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont > > > think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but > > who > > > are the stakeholders in such type of a > > > solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required > > here. > > > What I or you think should happen, would not > > affect > > > reality one bit. > > > Nations dont work on such canonical moral > > > principles.For getting anywhere near to the > > solution > > > of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip > > with > > > realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit > > from > > > an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir > > itself.As > > > for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN > > > reiterates a policy of non interference and > > > bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb > > the > > > other party to come to a solution. Nor can any > > country > > > bleed the other to a point of submission by > > terrorism > > > etc. > > > Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India > > > a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in > > the > > > North East, > > > b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and > > India > > > would not be comfortable with that going in a > > > different country. > > > c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not > > to > > > try to usurp any further territory. > > > d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a > > > disputed territory and if any party is perceived > > to go > > > soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult > > time > > > to get elected again. > > > So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint > > > gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting > > it > > > may have to do or it may have to tolerate. > > > I dont know much about Pakistani politics but > > there is > > > the one water treaty,for them to have reservations > > in > > > wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what > > > interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those > > > Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or > > whether > > > there is an internal political spin to it. > > > Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked > > region > > > with scant resources. If it does become a > > sovereign > > > state,it will also have problems with its non > > uniform > > > demographics. There would always be some sort of > > > strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour > > of an > > > option would only guarantee the continuation of > > some > > > kind of trouble in the region. > > > So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost > > > impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, > > would > > > not allow it to happen,without consideration for > > > Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests. > > > Not to say that all the people dont have a stake > > in > > > the solution of the problem.Most of all the > > Kashmiris. > > > Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense > > > expenditure). A solution is a win win option for > > > everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic > > and > > > pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their > > > idealism;because its a matter of life and death > > for > > > many people. > > > And,above all , all concerned parties should drop > > this > > > holier-than-thou charade of self determination, > > and > > > come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to > > > everyone,and everyone will have to budge from > > their > > > stated positions. > > > By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as > > I > > > know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been > > a > > > > > > Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine > > > theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my > > opinion > > > would have been the same. > > > regards > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all > the tools to get online. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting > From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 06:27:51 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <308796.65594.qm@web36104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <561726.54682.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Zainab, The reason why I mentioned Pakistan is that I was trying to delineate the stakeholders in the valley. I don't hold the view that all resistance to occupation in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored.I agree that there is state sponsored terrorism. I have no comment on stunts like apology.Thats why I did not take part in that debate.It does not matter to me who apologized to whom or not;and it does not matter to the people who get killed and raped. Now your third point.Please find my reply inline. I don't mean to get into a > philosophical discussion but in my point of view, > how > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the > ideal? > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to > aspire > for the ideal and to dream, would not this world be > a > very average/substandard place to live in? Don't you think you are being reductionist here?Any idea of pragmatism or romanticism does not exist in a vacuum.One doesn't become a romantic just for the heck of it.At least I don't.Please,lets not be highfalutin about it.Its a matter of people getting killed.If your romanticism gives the world one more poet like Agha Shahid Ali,whom i greatly admire by the way,and my pragmatism gives me a new generation that can grow up in a non-police state;which would you prefer? Lets talk in terms of whats plausible;achievable in the short term;isn't 60 years time enough? regards Rahul --- Zainab Bawa wrote: > Dear Rahul, > > One of the problems in our imagination of 'the > situation' in Kashmir is that we attribute all > violence to Pakistan which is really not the whole > picture. The Indian government carries out > state-sponsored terrorism in the Valley. I think it > is > important to consider this when we discussion 'the > situation' in Kashmir and 'solutions' to 'the > problem'. Just as some people want Yasin Malik to > apologize in public for the wrongs he has done, I > would want the Indian government to openly accept > and > apologize for the historical wrongs and the violence > it has perpetrated in the Valley. Without this > acceptance, the thought of any 'solution' is > incomplete and problematic in my line of thinking. > > You may choose to disagree with me on this. > > The other thing which has been on my mind ever since > my first visit to Kashmir in 2002 is what is > 'pragmatic' or what is 'idealistic' and who defines > these lines for Kashmir? I don't mean to get into a > philosophical discussion but in my point of view, > how > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the > ideal? > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to > aspire > for the ideal and to dream, would not this world be > a > very average/substandard place to live in? I would > be > very unhappy living in a world like this! > > Best, > > Zainab > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:30:01 +0530, "Vishal Rawlley" > wrote: > > Dear Rahul, > > > > After you posted your problems with > self-determination in Kashmir, I had > > replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you a > question: we now know the > > problems you have pointed out, but we want to know > your proposed solution, > > can you post your answer please. Thank you. > > > >>> > > In response to Rahul I had said: > > > > Very well said. You have a right to your own > opinions and have provided > > good > > reasoning for it too. However, it does not > necessarily mean that everyone > > has to agree with you. Other people have a right > to > their own viewpoints > > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your > views. If you are > > convinced that your views are superior than > others, > then its their loss > > that > > they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes > to decide the best > > viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile > keep > refining your > > arguments. > > Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who > won't listen. > > > > Many successive Indian governments have tried the > policy that you are > > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So > now > what to do? What is > > the > > correct solution? Can you put it down step by > step, > just like you put down > > all the problems point by point? > > > > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their > solution, > which was: withdrawal > > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian > and under Pakistani > > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the > space > to decide - after > > considering all the problems that you mentioned - > whether they want to be > > independent or be with either country (entirely or > partly, as in partly > > autonomous). > > > > I do not know this if solution of theirs will > work, > what do you think? > > Maybe > > this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide > and > they might kill each > > other some more before they arrive at a plan. But > at > least they will not > > be > > able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems > better than wasting our > > money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us > forcefully. > > > > Do you have a better plan? Tell us please. > > > > -Vishal > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/16/07, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > >> > >> Hi All, > >> I do not see the email shveta replied to in the > >> list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my > >> response to Vishal and it has my argument as to > why > >> the nation may resort to censorship in some > cases-to > >> be specific,why it would censor something that > >> promotes self determination in Kashmir. > >> Here goes again.If it was already posted to the > >> list,my apologies. > >> > >> Hi Vishal, > >> That was a great post.I mean the original one.I > find > >> my faculties of expression inadequate to connect > to > >> passionate people in general and ladies in > >> particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit > of > >> "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again. > >> Now,many people think that A united and > independent > >> Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just > solution > to > >> this 60 year old dispute. > >> This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont > >> think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, > but > who > >> are the stakeholders in such type of a > >> solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required > here. > >> What I or you think should happen, would not > affect > >> reality one bit. > >> Nations dont work on such canonical moral > >> principles.For getting anywhere near to the > solution > >> of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip > with > >> realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit > from > >> an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir > itself.As > >> for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN > >> reiterates a policy of non interference and > >> bilateralism.Neither can any side (India > \pak)bomb > the > >> other party to come to a solution. Nor can any > country > >> bleed the other to a point of submission by > terrorism > >> etc. > >> Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India > >> a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in > the > >> North East, > >> b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and > India > >> would not be comfortable with that going in a > >> different country. > >> c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not > to > >> try to usurp any further territory. > >> d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a > >> disputed territory and if any party is perceived > to > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From parthaekka at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 09:10:17 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:10:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709171647u54900387yad2a17d0f7c2d4a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> <46EB5EE1.1080909@sarai.net> <31d5ea920709150228x63dd099eh54a1b02292cd9603@mail.gmail.com> <31d5ea920709171647u54900387yad2a17d0f7c2d4a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709172040g4654754w438bf387cda0d3f@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Don't know how relevant this is in this specific context, but Bristol in the UK has something called a 'walking heritage tour'. It's a non-paid tour where people are walked through the city from point to point to various heritage sites by people of the town who explain about the site and it's importance. I admit that walking through Mumbai is not as easy as walking through a small town in UK so maybe the non-paid would not work. However, we could look at starting a project with Art and Architecture college students who would find this of interest, and maintain a signage archive. Apologies if the thoughts don't quite make a point, was just pouring out what came to my mind. Regards, Partha ................ On 9/18/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > Dear all, > > Kabi had suggested: > what about > marathi, gujarati, hindi urdu newpapers. or getting > some reporter on the local english/vernacular tv > stations interested in doing a piece. > > It seems like a good idea to try the vernacular/ local media. For all the > publicity Typocity got in the English press, it seems to have had very > little effect. Does someone have a contact I can use? > > I am also thinking that a sticker campaign (a little mark pasted on the > side > of a sign) and a certification system wherein all heritage signs are > recognised as such and marked accordingly, might help. All such signs > would > then be able to apply for funds for their upkeep or automatically go to > the > signage museum if it has to be dismantled. If old signs were to be > regularly > maintained, then the old sign makers would also find some employment. An > 'Adopt a Sign' system could be used to raise funds for individual signs > from > patrons from the local community - or a wider community by auctioning the > sign through its images on the internet. (Hmmm... I will have to become an > NGO then! I find myself wishing for a signage fairy who flits about > Bombay > streets brightening up and restoring the old signs in the night) > > Any further suggestions? > > Best, > v > > > On 9/15/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > > > Conversation thread started from> http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ > > > > Dear Shuddha, Aman, Kabi (and the additional people this is going out > to) > > > > The Typocity project (documenting signage and typeface in Mumbai - > > www.typocity.com) has been well publicised. It was featured in the Mid > > Day, talked about in Time Out, DNA people know about it; it was also > > featured in several art and design magazines. We also conducted a number > of > > presentations and workshops in collages and other forums. I have also > > personally spoken to many shop and restaurant owners about preserving > their > > old signage (one restaurant owner even has a laminated printout of the > > typocity website page featuring his restaurant proudly displayed at the > > counter). > > > > Months of labour on the project over three years had left me exhausted. > > But it is now time to revisit it and take stock. Change is inevitable > and no > > matter what you and me think, the individual proprietors will make their > own > > aesthetic choice and pragmatic decisions. So some signs went away and I > > could only sigh. However what got my goti is when I rushed into the > Eastern > > Watch shop to scold and complain to the owner for changing the sign, > only to > > realise that it was the BMC that forced him into this. Another regret > was > > that I had never managed to get a picture of this landmark sign because > of > > sheer bad luck and this haunted me whenever I passed by and each time I > > reminded myself to do it soon, and then I saw it gone. Damn! But luckily > the > > owner has a a photograph from 1920s (that is what he claims about the > old > > photo I had posted. See: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ and > > www.easternwatch.in ) which shows the original signage. It would have > been > > wonderful to compare this with a recent photograph of the same sign and > see > > how immaculate it still was - in bright red colours. I noticed the > sign's > > disappearance after I returned from a long trip abroad. I wonder whether > > there are others who noticed this disappearance. (The PUKAR ( > > www.pukar.org.in) office and the Times of India office are both a > stone's > > throw away from Eastern Watch.) > > > > Another thing is that the recent corporate retail boom is speeding up > the > > demise of private businesses. Old shops are becoming franchises or > revamping > > themselves to look just like one. So along with the BMC's callousness, > this > > has given me the impetus to revisit the Typocity project. > > > > What I need help with is in connecting with some heritage lobbyists, or > > better, a BMC officer who would listen. Could I use the RTI act in some > way? > > I am very inept at submitting forms, filing applications and drafting > formal > > letters. Government departments spook me out, but I can learn. And yes > > additional campaigners will surely help. When you do see a good signage, > > please tell the shop/ restaurant/ depot owner that what they have is > > precious - this is a really effective approach. Please tell them that > they > > should never convert their bakery into a Foodland and do buy as many > cakes > > you can from them. (The lady at American Express bakery remembers me for > > this. Printouts of ads from old newspapers about this 1930s institution > are > > proudly framed even in their new branch now.) Many owners already have > an > > attachment to the old world and all it needs is a young person to > reaffirm > > the charm and then they can get very protective about their heritage on > > their own. > > > > In certain cities some nice attempts have been made to restore old > signs. > > In Chicago, for example, the new owners try to retain the old sign even > if > > it is not relevant to their business. A hip cafeteria will retain the > sign > > of the clock repair shop that they have now come to occupy, and even > call > > their cafe Clockworks Cafe. It is a crusade against indiscriminate > > advertising. Can Foodland be perhaps made to see some sense? Can their > sign > > say Kayani Stores - and in small: a Foodland outlet. Couldn't it even be > a > > nice business model, as people like to buy food from an old and trusted > > place. In Montreal some people are collecting old signs that have to be > > taken off and are trying to create a museum for these. Funds for this > are > > collected, for now, from private donors and the storage space has been > > obtained for free. > > > > So if you know advertising people from the agencies that are designing > the > > branding for Foodland and Spencer's and Farm Fresh please speak to them. > If > > you know gallery owners or industrialists with some vacant warehouse > space, > > please ask them if they could store some precious signs in there for a > > while. If through signage reform we can create an awareness about a > certain > > ethos, then it might even impact architecture design and shop layout > design > > and city planning! A signage movement is easier to proceed with than > > fighting the builders lobby. But if a certain ethos catches on then the > > trend followers shall simply follow. > > > > Thanks for your ideas and suggestions so far. I look forward to all the > > press support and any other inputs that can help this cause. I am not > > leading this movement; it is as much anyone's cause as mine as long as > they > > feel the same way about signage and heritage and advertising etc. So do > > write in. > > > > Thanks, > > Vishal > > > > > > p.s. Shuddha, I do know about www.dafont.com and we did make digital > > typefaces out of some found fonts (a very tedious exercise, as not all > > characters of the font-set are present in the found font.) Some > enthusiastic > > students from typography major in J J school of arts have shown a keen > > interest in this area and anyone else who finds a typeface they like on > the > > Typocity website - without needing to scour the city - is free to make a > > font out of it. This can be an on ongoing exercise. Some people want to > > commercialise this whole venture - I am not very keen. My main interest > > is in seeing the heritage signs where they belong rather than on my > screen > > or on a T-shirt.) > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vishal, > > > > > > Many thanks for your posting on disappearing signage. As an avowed fan > > > of typographic curiosities I have long been an admirer of your efforts > > > to document the typographic diversity of Bombay. > > > > > > I share your concern about the disappearance of signage, because of > the > > > ham handed ways in which 'heritage' is interpreted by municipal > > > authorities. Perhaps one thing that could be done is a small > travelling > > > exhibition based on your work in colleges, and other arts institutions > > > in Bombay. And with your documentation, it should not be impossible to > > > convince some of the Bombay papers, say DNA or Mid Day, or even Time > Out > > > > > > Mumbai to publish some articles on the subject. Then maybe, the > > > 'heritage' lobby itself may be persuaded to step in and realize that > the > > > typographic history of Bombay is as much a part of 'heritage' as > > > anything else. I am sure that there are some people from DNA and Mid > Day > > > on this list. > > > > > > Perhaps they could come out and take this forward. I thought I would > > > post in reply to your post because typography is somthing that I feel > > > really strongly about, > > > > > > I hope that other people come up with other suggestions, > > > > > > best > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > Friends, > > > > > > > > In 2002 the Typocity project ( www.typocity.com) was initiated to > > > document > > > > typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of Bombay. Since then, > > > many of > > > > the old signs that we documented are slowly vanishing. However, I > was > > > most > > > > distressed to find that some of this heritage is being destroyed by > > > the > > > > municipal corporation itself in the name of protecting and > > > > restoring heritage structures. Nothing can be more absurd. > > > > > > > > Please follow this link to see the pictures of replaced signs and > find > > > out > > > > more: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ Do excuse the quality of > > > some of > > > > the recent pictures as they were taken on the spur with a > > > phone-camera. If > > > > anyone has better pictures of the recently replaced Eastern Watch > sign > > > > > > > please share it with me. > > > > > > > > I am desperately looking for suggestions and ideas to counter this > > > lack of > > > > sensitivity by the municipal corporation. I shall be very grateful > for > > > any > > > > help. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Vishal > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 09:14:16 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:14:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <561726.54682.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <308796.65594.qm@web36104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <561726.54682.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709172044r179bf06esf532e599a32657d9@mail.gmail.com> Hi Rahul, What you've said in the past few posts makes admirable sense. For a solution to work, ALL the stakeholders have to be involved, else the left out party will remain in a state of denial against the agreement. And I certainly agree that there's been more than enough death and suffering, which needs to be stopped. Look forward to your detailed mail. Rgds, Partha ............... On 9/18/07, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Dear Zainab, > The reason why I mentioned Pakistan is that I was > trying to delineate the stakeholders in the valley. > I don't hold the view that all resistance to > occupation in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored.I agree > that there is state sponsored terrorism. > I have no comment on stunts like apology.Thats why I > did not take part in that debate.It does not matter to > me who apologized to whom or not;and it does not > matter to the people who get killed and raped. > Now your third point.Please find my reply inline. > I don't mean to get into a > > philosophical discussion but in my point of view, > > how > > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the > > ideal? > > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to > > aspire > > for the ideal and to dream, would not this world be > > a > > very average/substandard place to live in? > > Don't you think you are being reductionist here?Any > idea of pragmatism or romanticism does not exist in a > vacuum.One doesn't become a romantic just for the heck > of it.At least I don't.Please,lets not be highfalutin > about it.Its a matter of people getting killed.If your > romanticism gives the world one more poet like Agha > Shahid Ali,whom i greatly admire by the way,and my > pragmatism gives me a new generation that can grow up > in a non-police state;which would you prefer? > Lets talk in terms of whats plausible;achievable in > the short term;isn't 60 years time enough? > > regards > Rahul > > --- Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > One of the problems in our imagination of 'the > > situation' in Kashmir is that we attribute all > > violence to Pakistan which is really not the whole > > picture. The Indian government carries out > > state-sponsored terrorism in the Valley. I think it > > is > > important to consider this when we discussion 'the > > situation' in Kashmir and 'solutions' to 'the > > problem'. Just as some people want Yasin Malik to > > apologize in public for the wrongs he has done, I > > would want the Indian government to openly accept > > and > > apologize for the historical wrongs and the violence > > it has perpetrated in the Valley. Without this > > acceptance, the thought of any 'solution' is > > incomplete and problematic in my line of thinking. > > > > You may choose to disagree with me on this. > > > > The other thing which has been on my mind ever since > > my first visit to Kashmir in 2002 is what is > > 'pragmatic' or what is 'idealistic' and who defines > > these lines for Kashmir? I don't mean to get into a > > philosophical discussion but in my point of view, > > how > > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the > > ideal? > > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to > > aspire > > for the ideal and to dream, would not this world be > > a > > very average/substandard place to live in? I would > > be > > very unhappy living in a world like this! > > > > Best, > > > > Zainab > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:30:01 +0530, "Vishal Rawlley" > > wrote: > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > > > After you posted your problems with > > self-determination in Kashmir, I had > > > replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you a > > question: we now know the > > > problems you have pointed out, but we want to know > > your proposed solution, > > > can you post your answer please. Thank you. > > > > > >>> > > > In response to Rahul I had said: > > > > > > Very well said. You have a right to your own > > opinions and have provided > > > good > > > reasoning for it too. However, it does not > > necessarily mean that everyone > > > has to agree with you. Other people have a right > > to > > their own viewpoints > > > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your > > views. If you are > > > convinced that your views are superior than > > others, > > then its their loss > > > that > > > they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes > > to decide the best > > > viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile > > keep > > refining your > > > arguments. > > > Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who > > won't listen. > > > > > > Many successive Indian governments have tried the > > policy that you are > > > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So > > now > > what to do? What is > > > the > > > correct solution? Can you put it down step by > > step, > > just like you put down > > > all the problems point by point? > > > > > > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their > > solution, > > which was: withdrawal > > > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian > > and under Pakistani > > > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the > > space > > to decide - after > > > considering all the problems that you mentioned - > > whether they want to be > > > independent or be with either country (entirely or > > partly, as in partly > > > autonomous). > > > > > > I do not know this if solution of theirs will > > work, > > what do you think? > > > Maybe > > > this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide > > and > > they might kill each > > > other some more before they arrive at a plan. But > > at > > least they will not > > > be > > > able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems > > better than wasting our > > > money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us > > forcefully. > > > > > > Do you have a better plan? Tell us please. > > > > > > -Vishal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/16/07, Rahul Asthana > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi All, > > >> I do not see the email shveta replied to in the > > >> list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my > > >> response to Vishal and it has my argument as to > > why > > >> the nation may resort to censorship in some > > cases-to > > >> be specific,why it would censor something that > > >> promotes self determination in Kashmir. > > >> Here goes again.If it was already posted to the > > >> list,my apologies. > > >> > > >> Hi Vishal, > > >> That was a great post.I mean the original one.I > > find > > >> my faculties of expression inadequate to connect > > to > > >> passionate people in general and ladies in > > >> particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit > > of > > >> "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again. > > >> Now,many people think that A united and > > independent > > >> Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just > > solution > > to > > >> this 60 year old dispute. > > >> This is a very appreciable sentiment, but I dont > > >> think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, > > but > > who > > >> are the stakeholders in such type of a > > >> solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required > > here. > > >> What I or you think should happen, would not > > affect > > >> reality one bit. > > >> Nations dont work on such canonical moral > > >> principles.For getting anywhere near to the > > solution > > >> of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip > > with > > >> realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit > > from > > >> an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir > > itself.As > > >> for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN > > >> reiterates a policy of non interference and > > >> bilateralism.Neither can any side (India > > \pak)bomb > > the > > >> other party to come to a solution. Nor can any > > country > > >> bleed the other to a point of submission by > > terrorism > > >> etc. > > >> Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India > > >> a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in > > the > > >> North East, > > >> b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and > > India > > >> would not be comfortable with that going in a > > >> different country. > > >> c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not > > to > > >> try to usurp any further territory. > > >> d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a > > >> disputed territory and if any party is perceived > > to > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 09:26:50 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:26:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <46EEC288.1050101@googlemail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> <46EE1118.4060608@sarai.net> <9c06aab30709170541s176f09a6pf2a15257cfc79e30@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709171000j47e90a5ahd5b8bb7be9748eb@mail.gmail.com> <46EEC288.1050101@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709172056p43eb7fcfgcd6b410f5141571a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Ray , I would not have cared for BJP /VHP protesting against Sethu Samundram project , had the same "bunch" of people come out in streets and held demonstrarions against the project , who had earlier protested narmada project and were part of Chipko movement. Where are Arundhatis and Medhas of this world ? I am sure they dont care about this issue and hence would stay back in their AS rooms polluting the atmosphere. Since they did not step in , why shouldnt I support BJP or VHP ...they are filling in the void. And so far i havent come across the stand of the Communist ? Is it the same as that of Karunnadhi ? Pawan On 9/17/07, Tapas Ray wrote: > > Pawan, > > If you care about ecology, don't you think that should be because it has > a value in itself, regardless of whether or not it has value as sacred > ground/water? If the channel had no mythology attached, would it be ok > to alter its ecosystem? The meaning of "more so" is not clear to me. The > way I see it, it is either worth preserving or it is not. Can't be both. > > As for the BJP and VHP, which have shown complete insensitivity to > ecological issues, would you like to see them hijack a major ecological > issue for their own political ends? As someone who is concerned about > ecology, are you not concerned that this would hurt the eco movement? > > Tapas > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > For me > > > > 1. Sethu Samudram is a matter of faith. > > 2. I care about Ecology , more so when fiddling with it causes > discomfort to > > faith of billions. > > > > I do not care for about BJP or VHP , as long as I do not need their > support > > to strengthen my cause. And in this project if they do something which > halts > > the project , i dont mind. > > > > It does not mean I am necessarily going to vote for them. > > > > Any more candid answer needed from me ? > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 9/17/07, Shivam Vij wrote: > >> I do, Shuddha. Don't you, Pawan? The BJP-VHP-RSS joint family can't > >> appropriate ecological concerns when it comes to Sethusundaram, and > refuse > >> to answer them when it comes to the Hindu Bomb. Surely Pawan, you > condemn > >> such hypocrisy? > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > >>> Dear Pawan, > >>> > >>> Thank you for your appreciation of my concern. Since I do not share > your > >>> faith, I cannot take that into consideration in my assessment of the > >>> Sethusamudran Project. But since I do share your ecological, > >>> developmental and financial concerns, I fully agree with you that the > >>> Sethusamudran Project is going to be a disaster. > >>> > >>> Now since you share my ecological, financial and developmental > concerns > >>> (and whether or not you do share my attitude to questions of faith, on > >>> which we can agree to disagree) I do hope you will share in my > >>> condemnation of the Nuclear Tests in Pokhran, the military occupation > of > >>> the Siachen glacier, the Narmada Dam and the 'canalization' plan > >>> proposed by the Bharatiya Janata Party as an alternative to the > >>> Sethusamduran Project. Because these are and have been all > ecological, > >>> developmental and financial disasters. > >>> > >>> You do, don't you? > >>> > >>> regards > >>> > >>> Shuddha (not Gargi) > >>> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 09:41:19 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:41:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709172056p43eb7fcfgcd6b410f5141571a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> <46EE1118.4060608@sarai.net> <9c06aab30709170541s176f09a6pf2a15257cfc79e30@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709171000j47e90a5ahd5b8bb7be9748eb@mail.gmail.com> <46EEC288.1050101@googlemail.com> <6b79f1a70709172056p43eb7fcfgcd6b410f5141571a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709172111s1c51b924x25f60f28ecf23758@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, I will not talk about the stance of the Left, or of the BJP or the Congress. Personally, I normally vote for the Congress, but the last two times I have invalidated my vote as I did not agree with the candidate of the platform they were seeking office on. However, I do care about whom I'm associated with. Whether for business or otherwise, in any issue that is important to me, am extremely careful whom I tie-up with since my reputation then also becomes linked up with them. My disagreement with the BJP (am not loking at the VHP since they're not a political party as such) is on the issue of how they could go along with a mob and destroy a public property. Do note that I'm not talking about whether it's a mosque or a temple or even an ordinary residents house. Against the law and against the constitution they destroyed property and then distanced themselves when the court laid down strictures. That is my personal point of view. However, if you feel it does not matter who you align yourself with, then that too is your personal point of view. Rgds, Partha .............. On 9/18/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Mr Ray , > > I would not have cared for BJP /VHP protesting against Sethu Samundram > project , had the same "bunch" of people come out in streets and held > demonstrarions against the project , who had earlier protested narmada > project and were part of Chipko movement. > > Where are Arundhatis and Medhas of this world ? > > I am sure they dont care about this issue and hence would stay back in > their > AS rooms polluting the atmosphere. > > Since they did not step in , why shouldnt I support BJP or VHP ...they are > filling in the void. > > And so far i havent come across the stand of the Communist ? Is it the > same > as that of Karunnadhi ? > > Pawan > > > > > On 9/17/07, Tapas Ray wrote: > > > > Pawan, > > > > If you care about ecology, don't you think that should be because it has > > a value in itself, regardless of whether or not it has value as sacred > > ground/water? If the channel had no mythology attached, would it be ok > > to alter its ecosystem? The meaning of "more so" is not clear to me. The > > way I see it, it is either worth preserving or it is not. Can't be both. > > > > As for the BJP and VHP, which have shown complete insensitivity to > > ecological issues, would you like to see them hijack a major ecological > > issue for their own political ends? As someone who is concerned about > > ecology, are you not concerned that this would hurt the eco movement? > > > > Tapas > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > For me > > > > > > 1. Sethu Samudram is a matter of faith. > > > 2. I care about Ecology , more so when fiddling with it causes > > discomfort to > > > faith of billions. > > > > > > I do not care for about BJP or VHP , as long as I do not need their > > support > > > to strengthen my cause. And in this project if they do something which > > halts > > > the project , i dont mind. > > > > > > It does not mean I am necessarily going to vote for them. > > > > > > Any more candid answer needed from me ? > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 9/17/07, Shivam Vij wrote: > > >> I do, Shuddha. Don't you, Pawan? The BJP-VHP-RSS joint family can't > > >> appropriate ecological concerns when it comes to Sethusundaram, and > > refuse > > >> to answer them when it comes to the Hindu Bomb. Surely Pawan, you > > condemn > > >> such hypocrisy? > > >> best > > >> shivam > > >> > > >> On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > >> > > >>> Dear Pawan, > > >>> > > >>> Thank you for your appreciation of my concern. Since I do not share > > your > > >>> faith, I cannot take that into consideration in my assessment of the > > >>> Sethusamudran Project. But since I do share your ecological, > > >>> developmental and financial concerns, I fully agree with you that > the > > >>> Sethusamudran Project is going to be a disaster. > > >>> > > >>> Now since you share my ecological, financial and developmental > > concerns > > >>> (and whether or not you do share my attitude to questions of faith, > on > > >>> which we can agree to disagree) I do hope you will share in my > > >>> condemnation of the Nuclear Tests in Pokhran, the military > occupation > > of > > >>> the Siachen glacier, the Narmada Dam and the 'canalization' plan > > >>> proposed by the Bharatiya Janata Party as an alternative to the > > >>> Sethusamduran Project. Because these are and have been all > > ecological, > > >>> developmental and financial disasters. > > >>> > > >>> You do, don't you? > > >>> > > >>> regards > > >>> > > >>> Shuddha (not Gargi) > > >>> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 09:41:55 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:41:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70709162207y15067ffcy8e9864cb3d0e2f0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709172111y367e4710g2c8da190d024fe5e@mail.gmail.com> Dear Gargi Sen Ji , NamaskAr I am sorry I lost you somewhere . My fault . Also I admit that I do not know much about Lord garg as well. Maybe you can tell me about it offline. I was under the impression that Shuddha was also a female , though I never had an idea about you either. Regards Pawan P.S : I always had a soft corner for Bong females and More so when they speak in Bangla , which i find the sweetest language to hear. From zainabbawa at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 09:46:36 2007 From: zainabbawa at yahoo.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <32144e990709172044r179bf06esf532e599a32657d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <851590.62560.qm@web36103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul, Thanks for responding. This is my personal view that when it comes to historical wrongs, one cannot simply 'jump' to a solution without a certain process of acknowledgment of wrongs and forgiveness. A live example was the Truths Commission in South Africa. Now, someone might say that that was a case of racism and therefore it does not apply to our situation. My disagreement on this is simply that if two decades of wrongs and violence have been inflicted on Kashmir and Kashmiris by the Indian army and the government of India, you cannot say 'forget it, let's talk of solutions'. It is like the situation in Gujarat where the Modi government did not acknowledge the wrongs it had committed and after the violence, 'it was business as usual'. In this case, the memories of violence and injustice remain repressed and you never know when there will be another outburst! What solution are we then talking about? Acknowledging wrongs is the first step towards a solution. Once the Indian government acknowledges what it has done in Kashmir, it is also sending a message which says, 'we are willing to listen and talk it out sincerely and see how best we can resolve the situation.' I don't think an apology in this case is a mere stunt. It is a clear political statement. On the issue of freedom for Kashmir and pragmatism and romanticism, the point is that for our individual lives, we decide ideals and struggle to achieve them despite people around us calling us mad or dreamers. But when it comes to a people who have clear justification for wanting independence, what is it that leads us to say, 'be practical man!'? Why cannot a community of people demand the ideal? And what is our fear of accepting that as a standard? Is the fear that there will be more violence and bloodhsed and more poets like Aga? If that is the fear, then we are still going round and round the bush and a solution in this case (i.e. denying a group of people their right to aspire for the ideal), we are talking of something similar to what Rajiv Gandhi did back in the 1980s by rigging the elections. Best, Zainab --- Partha Dasgupta wrote: > Hi Rahul, > > What you've said in the past few posts makes > admirable sense. For a solution > to work, ALL the stakeholders have to be involved, > else the left out party > will remain in a state of denial against the > agreement. > > And I certainly agree that there's been more than > enough death and > suffering, which needs to be stopped. > > Look forward to your detailed mail. > > Rgds, Partha > ............... > > On 9/18/07, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > > > Dear Zainab, > > The reason why I mentioned Pakistan is that I was > > trying to delineate the stakeholders in the > valley. > > I don't hold the view that all resistance to > > occupation in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored.I > agree > > that there is state sponsored terrorism. > > I have no comment on stunts like apology.Thats why > I > > did not take part in that debate.It does not > matter to > > me who apologized to whom or not;and it does not > > matter to the people who get killed and raped. > > Now your third point.Please find my reply inline. > > I don't mean to get into a > > > philosophical discussion but in my point of > view, > > > how > > > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the > > > ideal? > > > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to > > > aspire > > > for the ideal and to dream, would not this world > be > > > a > > > very average/substandard place to live in? > > > > Don't you think you are being reductionist > here?Any > > idea of pragmatism or romanticism does not exist > in a > > vacuum.One doesn't become a romantic just for the > heck > > of it.At least I don't.Please,lets not be > highfalutin > > about it.Its a matter of people getting killed.If > your > > romanticism gives the world one more poet like > Agha > > Shahid Ali,whom i greatly admire by the way,and my > > pragmatism gives me a new generation that can grow > up > > in a non-police state;which would you prefer? > > Lets talk in terms of whats plausible;achievable > in > > the short term;isn't 60 years time enough? > > > > regards > > Rahul > > > > --- Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > > > One of the problems in our imagination of 'the > > > situation' in Kashmir is that we attribute all > > > violence to Pakistan which is really not the > whole > > > picture. The Indian government carries out > > > state-sponsored terrorism in the Valley. I think > it > > > is > > > important to consider this when we discussion > 'the > > > situation' in Kashmir and 'solutions' to 'the > > > problem'. Just as some people want Yasin Malik > to > > > apologize in public for the wrongs he has done, > I > > > would want the Indian government to openly > accept > > > and > > > apologize for the historical wrongs and the > violence > > > it has perpetrated in the Valley. Without this > > > acceptance, the thought of any 'solution' is > > > incomplete and problematic in my line of > thinking. > > > > > > You may choose to disagree with me on this. > > > > > > The other thing which has been on my mind ever > since > > > my first visit to Kashmir in 2002 is what is > > > 'pragmatic' or what is 'idealistic' and who > defines > > > these lines for Kashmir? I don't mean to get > into a > > > philosophical discussion but in my point of > view, > > > how > > > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the > > > ideal? > > > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to > > > aspire > > > for the ideal and to dream, would not this world > be > > > a > > > very average/substandard place to live in? I > would > > > be > > > very unhappy living in a world like this! > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:30:01 +0530, "Vishal > Rawlley" > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > > > > > After you posted your problems with > > > self-determination in Kashmir, I had > > > > replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you > a > > > question: we now know the > > > > problems you have pointed out, but we want to > know > > > your proposed solution, > > > > can you post your answer please. Thank you. > > > > > > > >>> > > > > In response to Rahul I had said: > > > > > > > > Very well said. You have a right to your own > > > opinions and have provided > > > > good > > > > reasoning for it too. However, it does not > > > necessarily mean that everyone > > > > has to agree with you. Other people have a > right > > > to > > > their own viewpoints > > > > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose > your > > > views. If you are > > > > convinced that your views are superior than > > > others, > > > then its their loss > > > > that > > > > they do not get your viewpoint. When the day > comes > > > to decide the best > > > > viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile > > > keep > > > refining your > > > > arguments. > > > > Do not waste you energy in arguing with those > who > > > won't listen. > > > > > > > > Many successive Indian governments have tried > the > > > policy that you are > > > > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. > So > > > now > > > what to do? What is > > > > the > > > > correct solution? Can you put it down step by > > > step, > > > just like you put down > > > > all the problems point by point? > > > > > > > > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their > > > solution, > > > which was: withdrawal > > > > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under > Indian > > > and under Pakistani > > > > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the > > > space > > > to decide - after > > > > considering all the problems that you > mentioned - > > > whether they want to be > > > > independent or be with either country > (entirely or > === message truncated === Zainab Bawa Mumbai www.xanga.com/citybytes ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 09:50:08 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:50:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <851590.62560.qm@web36103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <32144e990709172044r179bf06esf532e599a32657d9@mail.gmail.com> <851590.62560.qm@web36103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709172120p13af4b30h937c60990a099114@mail.gmail.com> Zainab, Which election did Rajiv Gandhi rig in 1980 ? Plz enlighten me ! Pawan On 9/18/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > Dear Rahul, > > Thanks for responding. This is my personal view that > when it comes to historical wrongs, one cannot simply > 'jump' to a solution without a certain process of > acknowledgment of wrongs and forgiveness. A live > example was the Truths Commission in South Africa. > Now, someone might say that that was a case of racism > and therefore it does not apply to our situation. My > disagreement on this is simply that if two decades of > wrongs and violence have been inflicted on Kashmir and > Kashmiris by the Indian army and the government of > India, you cannot say 'forget it, let's talk of > solutions'. It is like the situation in Gujarat where > the Modi government did not acknowledge the wrongs it > had committed and after the violence, 'it was business > as usual'. In this case, the memories of violence and > injustice remain repressed and you never know when > there will be another outburst! What solution are we > then talking about? > > Acknowledging wrongs is the first step towards a > solution. Once the Indian government acknowledges what > it has done in Kashmir, it is also sending a message > which says, 'we are willing to listen and talk it out > sincerely and see how best we can resolve the > situation.' I don't think an apology in this case is a > mere stunt. It is a clear political statement. > > On the issue of freedom for Kashmir and pragmatism and > romanticism, the point is that for our individual > lives, we decide ideals and struggle to achieve them > despite people around us calling us mad or dreamers. > But when it comes to a people who have clear > justification for wanting independence, what is it > that leads us to say, 'be practical man!'? Why cannot > a community of people demand the ideal? And what is > our fear of accepting that as a standard? Is the fear > that there will be more violence and bloodhsed and > more poets like Aga? If that is the fear, then we are > still going round and round the bush and a solution in > this case (i.e. denying a group of people their right > to aspire for the ideal), we are talking of something > similar to what Rajiv Gandhi did back in the 1980s by > rigging the elections. > > Best, > > Zainab > > > --- Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > Hi Rahul, > > > > What you've said in the past few posts makes > > admirable sense. For a solution > > to work, ALL the stakeholders have to be involved, > > else the left out party > > will remain in a state of denial against the > > agreement. > > > > And I certainly agree that there's been more than > > enough death and > > suffering, which needs to be stopped. > > > > Look forward to your detailed mail. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ............... > > > > On 9/18/07, Rahul Asthana > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Zainab, > > > The reason why I mentioned Pakistan is that I was > > > trying to delineate the stakeholders in the > > valley. > > > I don't hold the view that all resistance to > > > occupation in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored.I > > agree > > > that there is state sponsored terrorism. > > > I have no comment on stunts like apology.Thats why > > I > > > did not take part in that debate.It does not > > matter to > > > me who apologized to whom or not;and it does not > > > matter to the people who get killed and raped. > > > Now your third point.Please find my reply inline. > > > I don't mean to get into a > > > > philosophical discussion but in my point of > > view, > > > > how > > > > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the > > > > ideal? > > > > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to > > > > aspire > > > > for the ideal and to dream, would not this world > > be > > > > a > > > > very average/substandard place to live in? > > > > > > Don't you think you are being reductionist > > here?Any > > > idea of pragmatism or romanticism does not exist > > in a > > > vacuum.One doesn't become a romantic just for the > > heck > > > of it.At least I don't.Please,lets not be > > highfalutin > > > about it.Its a matter of people getting killed.If > > your > > > romanticism gives the world one more poet like > > Agha > > > Shahid Ali,whom i greatly admire by the way,and my > > > pragmatism gives me a new generation that can grow > > up > > > in a non-police state;which would you prefer? > > > Lets talk in terms of whats plausible;achievable > > in > > > the short term;isn't 60 years time enough? > > > > > > regards > > > Rahul > > > > > > --- Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > > > > > One of the problems in our imagination of 'the > > > > situation' in Kashmir is that we attribute all > > > > violence to Pakistan which is really not the > > whole > > > > picture. The Indian government carries out > > > > state-sponsored terrorism in the Valley. I think > > it > > > > is > > > > important to consider this when we discussion > > 'the > > > > situation' in Kashmir and 'solutions' to 'the > > > > problem'. Just as some people want Yasin Malik > > to > > > > apologize in public for the wrongs he has done, > > I > > > > would want the Indian government to openly > > accept > > > > and > > > > apologize for the historical wrongs and the > > violence > > > > it has perpetrated in the Valley. Without this > > > > acceptance, the thought of any 'solution' is > > > > incomplete and problematic in my line of > > thinking. > > > > > > > > You may choose to disagree with me on this. > > > > > > > > The other thing which has been on my mind ever > > since > > > > my first visit to Kashmir in 2002 is what is > > > > 'pragmatic' or what is 'idealistic' and who > > defines > > > > these lines for Kashmir? I don't mean to get > > into a > > > > philosophical discussion but in my point of > > view, > > > > how > > > > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the > > > > ideal? > > > > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to > > > > aspire > > > > for the ideal and to dream, would not this world > > be > > > > a > > > > very average/substandard place to live in? I > > would > > > > be > > > > very unhappy living in a world like this! > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:30:01 +0530, "Vishal > > Rawlley" > > > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > > > > > > > After you posted your problems with > > > > self-determination in Kashmir, I had > > > > > replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you > > a > > > > question: we now know the > > > > > problems you have pointed out, but we want to > > know > > > > your proposed solution, > > > > > can you post your answer please. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > In response to Rahul I had said: > > > > > > > > > > Very well said. You have a right to your own > > > > opinions and have provided > > > > > good > > > > > reasoning for it too. However, it does not > > > > necessarily mean that everyone > > > > > has to agree with you. Other people have a > > right > > > > to > > > > their own viewpoints > > > > > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose > > your > > > > views. If you are > > > > > convinced that your views are superior than > > > > others, > > > > then its their loss > > > > > that > > > > > they do not get your viewpoint. When the day > > comes > > > > to decide the best > > > > > viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile > > > > keep > > > > refining your > > > > > arguments. > > > > > Do not waste you energy in arguing with those > > who > > > > won't listen. > > > > > > > > > > Many successive Indian governments have tried > > the > > > > policy that you are > > > > > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. > > So > > > > now > > > > what to do? What is > > > > > the > > > > > correct solution? Can you put it down step by > > > > step, > > > > just like you put down > > > > > all the problems point by point? > > > > > > > > > > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their > > > > solution, > > > > which was: withdrawal > > > > > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under > > Indian > > > > and under Pakistani > > > > > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the > > > > space > > > > to decide - after > > > > > considering all the problems that you > > mentioned - > > > > whether they want to be > > > > > independent or be with either country > > (entirely or > > > === message truncated === > > > Zainab Bawa > Mumbai > > www.xanga.com/citybytes > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From tobym at ucr.edu Tue Sep 18 08:00:18 2007 From: tobym at ucr.edu (Toby Miller) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:30:18 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Emails to individuals Message-ID: <7FEA83F8-7037-46E9-9636-08CED6AEAF10@ucr.edu> Hi Everybody I'd just like to second Monica's post. I am a very great admirer of the Sarai project, and read the list's postings each day. Recently, what had been a dynamic, exciting, smart, and engaged place of debate and information has become something not worth visiting for me. Instead, I wake each day to dozens of angry rants. I shall case my subscription if this continues. There are many places for deeply personalized critiques--why spoil somewhere that has avoided that? It is time for the moderators to act--however regretfully so--or the reason for having this list will be lost Regards Toby Miller From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 10:28:57 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:28:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Caged Goddess Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709172158u3ca51e12mfd11007db72ba108@mail.gmail.com> We feel let down goddess Zeystha as our roles reverse and it is our turn to protect you and thwart wanton designs of idol lifters and iconoclasts on the prowl in our land. We build you a cage and have to make do with a latticed *darshana* as the iron bars criss-cross your visage in the rising sun's rays. But that seems to us a half measure at best, as the zealots seek other ways to carry you away, and we move you to a safer place of an iron vault in a sealed room with security on guard! Yet the fear lurks in our minds of the guards turning conspirators and joining hands with the abductors. Is there a way out of this distress, our protectress, except for you to become un-manifest and repair to the bosom of this spring, (from where, aeons back you didst rise to rule our hearts) and bide your time to reincarnate till we settle scores, in this accursed valley of ours? *Dr. K. L. Chowdhury Srinagar - April 1988 [Of Gods, Men & Militants]* From zainabbawa at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 10:36:29 2007 From: zainabbawa at yahoo.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709172120p13af4b30h937c60990a099114@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <360082.65856.qm@web36102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan, Your reading and interpretation of history and my reading and interpretation of history differ and that is very clear from the discussions that we have had and seen on this list so far. Thus far, you have not attempted to see my point of view and I have also not attempted to see much of your point of view because the fundamental differences in our ideologies is that for you, the nation is an important determining force of your life and you see it as bringing stability and order whereas for me, the nation cannot determine my life for me and I see its attempts at bring stability and order laced with violence in certain situations. Therefore, I am in no position to enlighten you. However, I want to take this opportunity to lighten myself by admitting that I am feeling very uncomfortable and queasy discussing 'solutions' 'for' 'Kashmir'. I believe that ultimately, their voices are the legitimate ones and the most I can do is to offer my support rather than try to speak for them. I think what also alienates Kashmiris is the attempt on the part of 'us' 'Indians' to try to speak for them rather than them speaking for themselves! Best, Zainab P.S. Pawan, you have still not dug out that email for me. I am still waiting ... --- Pawan Durani wrote: > Zainab, > > Which election did Rajiv Gandhi rig in 1980 ? Plz > enlighten me ! > > Pawan > > > On 9/18/07, Zainab Bawa > wrote: > > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > Thanks for responding. This is my personal view > that > > when it comes to historical wrongs, one cannot > simply > > 'jump' to a solution without a certain process of > > acknowledgment of wrongs and forgiveness. A live > > example was the Truths Commission in South Africa. > > Now, someone might say that that was a case of > racism > > and therefore it does not apply to our situation. > My > > disagreement on this is simply that if two decades > of > > wrongs and violence have been inflicted on Kashmir > and > > Kashmiris by the Indian army and the government of > > India, you cannot say 'forget it, let's talk of > > solutions'. It is like the situation in Gujarat > where > > the Modi government did not acknowledge the wrongs > it > > had committed and after the violence, 'it was > business > > as usual'. In this case, the memories of violence > and > > injustice remain repressed and you never know when > > there will be another outburst! What solution are > we > > then talking about? > > > > Acknowledging wrongs is the first step towards a > > solution. Once the Indian government acknowledges > what > > it has done in Kashmir, it is also sending a > message > > which says, 'we are willing to listen and talk it > out > > sincerely and see how best we can resolve the > > situation.' I don't think an apology in this case > is a > > mere stunt. It is a clear political statement. > > > > On the issue of freedom for Kashmir and pragmatism > and > > romanticism, the point is that for our individual > > lives, we decide ideals and struggle to achieve > them > > despite people around us calling us mad or > dreamers. > > But when it comes to a people who have clear > > justification for wanting independence, what is it > > that leads us to say, 'be practical man!'? Why > cannot > > a community of people demand the ideal? And what > is > > our fear of accepting that as a standard? Is the > fear > > that there will be more violence and bloodhsed and > > more poets like Aga? If that is the fear, then we > are > > still going round and round the bush and a > solution in > > this case (i.e. denying a group of people their > right > > to aspire for the ideal), we are talking of > something > > similar to what Rajiv Gandhi did back in the 1980s > by > > rigging the elections. > > > > Best, > > > > Zainab > > > > > > --- Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > Hi Rahul, > > > > > > What you've said in the past few posts makes > > > admirable sense. For a solution > > > to work, ALL the stakeholders have to be > involved, > > > else the left out party > > > will remain in a state of denial against the > > > agreement. > > > > > > And I certainly agree that there's been more > than > > > enough death and > > > suffering, which needs to be stopped. > > > > > > Look forward to your detailed mail. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ............... > > > > > > On 9/18/07, Rahul Asthana > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Zainab, > > > > The reason why I mentioned Pakistan is that I > was > > > > trying to delineate the stakeholders in the > > > valley. > > > > I don't hold the view that all resistance to > > > > occupation in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored.I > > > agree > > > > that there is state sponsored terrorism. > > > > I have no comment on stunts like apology.Thats > why > > > I > > > > did not take part in that debate.It does not > > > matter to > > > > me who apologized to whom or not;and it does > not > > > > matter to the people who get killed and raped. > > > > Now your third point.Please find my reply > inline. > > > > I don't mean to get into a > > > > > philosophical discussion but in my point of > > > view, > > > > > how > > > > > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for > the > > > > > ideal? > > > > > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid > to > > > > > aspire > > > > > for the ideal and to dream, would not this > world > > > be > > > > > a > > > > > very average/substandard place to live in? > > > > > > > > Don't you think you are being reductionist > > > here?Any > > > > idea of pragmatism or romanticism does not > exist > > > in a > > > > vacuum.One doesn't become a romantic just for > the > > > heck > > > > of it.At least I don't.Please,lets not be > > > highfalutin > > > > about it.Its a matter of people getting > killed.If > > > your > > > > romanticism gives the world one more poet like > > > Agha > > > > Shahid Ali,whom i greatly admire by the > way,and my > > > > pragmatism gives me a new generation that can > grow > > > up > > > > in a non-police state;which would you prefer? > > > > Lets talk in terms of whats > plausible;achievable > > > in > > > > the short term;isn't 60 years time enough? > > > > > > > > regards > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > --- Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > > > > > > > One of the problems in our imagination of > 'the > > > > > situation' in Kashmir is that we attribute > all > > > > > violence to Pakistan which is really not the > > > whole > > > > > picture. The Indian government carries out > > > > > state-sponsored terrorism in the Valley. I > think > > > it > > > > > is > > > > > important to consider this when we > discussion > > > 'the > > > > > situation' in Kashmir and 'solutions' to > 'the > > > > > problem'. Just as some people want Yasin > Malik > > > to > === message truncated === Zainab Bawa Mumbai www.xanga.com/citybytes ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 10:45:47 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:45:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <360082.65856.qm@web36102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70709172120p13af4b30h937c60990a099114@mail.gmail.com> <360082.65856.qm@web36102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709172215y227b565eib8c3bf6b6b0df5eb@mail.gmail.com> Zainab , I was just asking which election did Rajiv Gandhi rig in 1980 ? I have missed something terribly which has happened in 1980 and if you can enlighten me , i may add up something to my knowledge. Pawan On 9/18/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > Your reading and interpretation of history and my > reading and interpretation of history differ and that > is very clear from the discussions that we have had > and seen on this list so far. Thus far, you have not > attempted to see my point of view and I have also not > attempted to see much of your point of view because > the fundamental differences in our ideologies is that > for you, the nation is an important determining force > of your life and you see it as bringing stability and > order whereas for me, the nation cannot determine my > life for me and I see its attempts at bring stability > and order laced with violence in certain situations. > Therefore, I am in no position to enlighten you. > > However, I want to take this opportunity to lighten > myself by admitting that I am feeling very > uncomfortable and queasy discussing 'solutions' 'for' > 'Kashmir'. I believe that ultimately, their voices are > the legitimate ones and the most I can do is to offer > my support rather than try to speak for them. I think > what also alienates Kashmiris is the attempt on the > part of 'us' 'Indians' to try to speak for them rather > than them speaking for themselves! > > Best, > > Zainab > > P.S. Pawan, you have still not dug out that email for > me. I am still waiting ... > > > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Zainab, > > > > Which election did Rajiv Gandhi rig in 1980 ? Plz > > enlighten me ! > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 9/18/07, Zainab Bawa > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > > > Thanks for responding. This is my personal view > > that > > > when it comes to historical wrongs, one cannot > > simply > > > 'jump' to a solution without a certain process of > > > acknowledgment of wrongs and forgiveness. A live > > > example was the Truths Commission in South Africa. > > > Now, someone might say that that was a case of > > racism > > > and therefore it does not apply to our situation. > > My > > > disagreement on this is simply that if two decades > > of > > > wrongs and violence have been inflicted on Kashmir > > and > > > Kashmiris by the Indian army and the government of > > > India, you cannot say 'forget it, let's talk of > > > solutions'. It is like the situation in Gujarat > > where > > > the Modi government did not acknowledge the wrongs > > it > > > had committed and after the violence, 'it was > > business > > > as usual'. In this case, the memories of violence > > and > > > injustice remain repressed and you never know when > > > there will be another outburst! What solution are > > we > > > then talking about? > > > > > > Acknowledging wrongs is the first step towards a > > > solution. Once the Indian government acknowledges > > what > > > it has done in Kashmir, it is also sending a > > message > > > which says, 'we are willing to listen and talk it > > out > > > sincerely and see how best we can resolve the > > > situation.' I don't think an apology in this case > > is a > > > mere stunt. It is a clear political statement. > > > > > > On the issue of freedom for Kashmir and pragmatism > > and > > > romanticism, the point is that for our individual > > > lives, we decide ideals and struggle to achieve > > them > > > despite people around us calling us mad or > > dreamers. > > > But when it comes to a people who have clear > > > justification for wanting independence, what is it > > > that leads us to say, 'be practical man!'? Why > > cannot > > > a community of people demand the ideal? And what > > is > > > our fear of accepting that as a standard? Is the > > fear > > > that there will be more violence and bloodhsed and > > > more poets like Aga? If that is the fear, then we > > are > > > still going round and round the bush and a > > solution in > > > this case (i.e. denying a group of people their > > right > > > to aspire for the ideal), we are talking of > > something > > > similar to what Rajiv Gandhi did back in the 1980s > > by > > > rigging the elections. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > > --- Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Rahul, > > > > > > > > What you've said in the past few posts makes > > > > admirable sense. For a solution > > > > to work, ALL the stakeholders have to be > > involved, > > > > else the left out party > > > > will remain in a state of denial against the > > > > agreement. > > > > > > > > And I certainly agree that there's been more > > than > > > > enough death and > > > > suffering, which needs to be stopped. > > > > > > > > Look forward to your detailed mail. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ............... > > > > > > > > On 9/18/07, Rahul Asthana > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Zainab, > > > > > The reason why I mentioned Pakistan is that I > > was > > > > > trying to delineate the stakeholders in the > > > > valley. > > > > > I don't hold the view that all resistance to > > > > > occupation in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored.I > > > > agree > > > > > that there is state sponsored terrorism. > > > > > I have no comment on stunts like apology.Thats > > why > > > > I > > > > > did not take part in that debate.It does not > > > > matter to > > > > > me who apologized to whom or not;and it does > > not > > > > > matter to the people who get killed and raped. > > > > > Now your third point.Please find my reply > > inline. > > > > > I don't mean to get into a > > > > > > philosophical discussion but in my point of > > > > view, > > > > > > how > > > > > > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for > > the > > > > > > ideal? > > > > > > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid > > to > > > > > > aspire > > > > > > for the ideal and to dream, would not this > > world > > > > be > > > > > > a > > > > > > very average/substandard place to live in? > > > > > > > > > > Don't you think you are being reductionist > > > > here?Any > > > > > idea of pragmatism or romanticism does not > > exist > > > > in a > > > > > vacuum.One doesn't become a romantic just for > > the > > > > heck > > > > > of it.At least I don't.Please,lets not be > > > > highfalutin > > > > > about it.Its a matter of people getting > > killed.If > > > > your > > > > > romanticism gives the world one more poet like > > > > Agha > > > > > Shahid Ali,whom i greatly admire by the > > way,and my > > > > > pragmatism gives me a new generation that can > > grow > > > > up > > > > > in a non-police state;which would you prefer? > > > > > Lets talk in terms of whats > > plausible;achievable > > > > in > > > > > the short term;isn't 60 years time enough? > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > --- Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the problems in our imagination of > > 'the > > > > > > situation' in Kashmir is that we attribute > > all > > > > > > violence to Pakistan which is really not the > > > > whole > > > > > > picture. The Indian government carries out > > > > > > state-sponsored terrorism in the Valley. I > > think > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > important to consider this when we > > discussion > > > > 'the > > > > > > situation' in Kashmir and 'solutions' to > > 'the > > > > > > problem'. Just as some people want Yasin > > Malik > > > > to > > > === message truncated === > > > Zainab Bawa > Mumbai > > www.xanga.com/citybytes > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who > knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 10:48:25 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:48:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70709172111y367e4710g2c8da190d024fe5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709172218n6f906ac0sb7eab278030ef96e@mail.gmail.com> Zainab , What is offensive in that ? And surprised to learn that you are a female too ...... All these names used to be for males in Kashmir , where I did my schooling . You did not still tell me about 1980 election which lt Sh Rajiv Gandhi had rigged ! Pawan On 9/18/07, zainab wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > I find this statement of yours " P.S : I always had a soft corner for Bong > females and More so when they > > speak in Bangla , which i find the sweetest language to hear." a little > out of context. What is the point of making a statement like this on a > public list? And what does this statement mean in any case? Somehow, I > find > it quite offensive as a female, I cannot speak for Gargi. > > I think now I understand what Monica was attempting to say in her > 'unsubscribe' email. I hope that all of us, including myself, can maintain > some dignity and decorum on this public list. > > Best, > > Zainab > > On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:41:55 +0530, "Pawan Durani" > > wrote: > > Dear Gargi Sen Ji , > > > > NamaskAr > > > > I am sorry I lost you somewhere . My fault . Also I admit that I do not > > know > > much about Lord garg as well. Maybe you can tell me about it offline. > > > > I was under the impression that Shuddha was also a female , though I > never > > had an idea about you either. > > > > Regards > > Pawan > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 10:51:12 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:51:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <32144e990709172040g4654754w438bf387cda0d3f@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> <46EB5EE1.1080909@sarai.net> <31d5ea920709150228x63dd099eh54a1b02292cd9603@mail.gmail.com> <31d5ea920709171647u54900387yad2a17d0f7c2d4a5@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709172040g4654754w438bf387cda0d3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709172221w5ad464daq43b18e7973a37db3@mail.gmail.com> Hi Partha, Heritage walks in Mumbai do exist, see: http://www.bombayheritagewalks.com/ But often heritage only includes architectural structures and historical precincts. In the particular case that prompted me to re-visit the Typocity project, an eighty year old sign was removed from the facade of a heritage building because the former was not considered a part of heritage and was thought to be corrupting the heritage value of the latter. These emails are also being forwarded to bombayheritagewalks (are they listening, I wonder?). I have been for one of their tours and they are extremely educational and very fun. Hopefully when they walk through some of the heritage areas they will look out for the old signage too. Best, Vishal On 9/18/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi, > > Don't know how relevant this is in this specific context, but Bristol in > the UK has something called a 'walking heritage tour'. It's a non-paid tour > where people are walked through the city from point to point to various > heritage sites by people of the town who explain about the site and it's > importance. > > I admit that walking through Mumbai is not as easy as walking through a > small town in UK so maybe the non-paid would not work. > > However, we could look at starting a project with Art and Architecture > college students who would find this of interest, and maintain a signage > archive. > > Apologies if the thoughts don't quite make a point, was just pouring out > what came to my mind. > > Regards, Partha > ................ > > On 9/18/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > Kabi had suggested: > > what about > > marathi, gujarati, hindi urdu newpapers. or getting > > some reporter on the local english/vernacular tv > > stations interested in doing a piece. > > > > It seems like a good idea to try the vernacular/ local media. For all > > the > > publicity Typocity got in the English press, it seems to have had very > > little effect. Does someone have a contact I can use? > > > > I am also thinking that a sticker campaign (a little mark pasted on the > > side > > of a sign) and a certification system wherein all heritage signs are > > recognised as such and marked accordingly, might help. All such signs > > would > > then be able to apply for funds for their upkeep or automatically go to > > the > > signage museum if it has to be dismantled. If old signs were to be > > regularly > > maintained, then the old sign makers would also find some employment. An > > 'Adopt a Sign' system could be used to raise funds for individual signs > > from > > patrons from the local community - or a wider community by auctioning > > the > > sign through its images on the internet. (Hmmm... I will have to become > > an > > NGO then! I find myself wishing for a signage fairy who flits about > > Bombay > > streets brightening up and restoring the old signs in the night) > > > > Any further suggestions? > > > > Best, > > v > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > > > > > Conversation thread started from> http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, Aman, Kabi (and the additional people this is going out > > to) > > > > > > The Typocity project (documenting signage and typeface in Mumbai - > > > www.typocity.com) has been well publicised. It was featured in the Mid > > > Day, talked about in Time Out, DNA people know about it; it was also > > > featured in several art and design magazines. We also conducted a > > number of > > > presentations and workshops in collages and other forums. I have also > > > personally spoken to many shop and restaurant owners about preserving > > their > > > old signage (one restaurant owner even has a laminated printout of the > > > > > typocity website page featuring his restaurant proudly displayed at > > the > > > counter). > > > > > > Months of labour on the project over three years had left me > > exhausted. > > > But it is now time to revisit it and take stock. Change is inevitable > > and no > > > matter what you and me think, the individual proprietors will make > > their own > > > aesthetic choice and pragmatic decisions. So some signs went away and > > I > > > could only sigh. However what got my goti is when I rushed into the > > Eastern > > > Watch shop to scold and complain to the owner for changing the sign, > > only to > > > realise that it was the BMC that forced him into this. Another regret > > was > > > that I had never managed to get a picture of this landmark sign > > because of > > > sheer bad luck and this haunted me whenever I passed by and each time > > I > > > reminded myself to do it soon, and then I saw it gone. Damn! But > > luckily the > > > owner has a a photograph from 1920s (that is what he claims about the > > old > > > photo I had posted. See: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ and > > > www.easternwatch.in ) which shows the original signage. It would have > > been > > > wonderful to compare this with a recent photograph of the same sign > > and see > > > how immaculate it still was - in bright red colours. I noticed the > > sign's > > > disappearance after I returned from a long trip abroad. I wonder > > whether > > > there are others who noticed this disappearance. (The PUKAR ( > > > www.pukar.org.in) office and the Times of India office are both a > > stone's > > > throw away from Eastern Watch.) > > > > > > Another thing is that the recent corporate retail boom is speeding up > > the > > > demise of private businesses. Old shops are becoming franchises or > > revamping > > > themselves to look just like one. So along with the BMC's callousness, > > this > > > has given me the impetus to revisit the Typocity project. > > > > > > What I need help with is in connecting with some heritage lobbyists, > > or > > > better, a BMC officer who would listen. Could I use the RTI act in > > some way? > > > I am very inept at submitting forms, filing applications and drafting > > formal > > > letters. Government departments spook me out, but I can learn. And yes > > > additional campaigners will surely help. When you do see a good > > signage, > > > please tell the shop/ restaurant/ depot owner that what they have is > > > precious - this is a really effective approach. Please tell them that > > they > > > should never convert their bakery into a Foodland and do buy as many > > cakes > > > you can from them. (The lady at American Express bakery remembers me > > for > > > this. Printouts of ads from old newspapers about this 1930s > > institution are > > > proudly framed even in their new branch now.) Many owners already have > > an > > > attachment to the old world and all it needs is a young person to > > reaffirm > > > the charm and then they can get very protective about their heritage > > on > > > their own. > > > > > > In certain cities some nice attempts have been made to restore old > > signs. > > > In Chicago, for example, the new owners try to retain the old sign > > even if > > > it is not relevant to their business. A hip cafeteria will retain the > > sign > > > of the clock repair shop that they have now come to occupy, and even > > call > > > their cafe Clockworks Cafe. It is a crusade against indiscriminate > > > advertising. Can Foodland be perhaps made to see some sense? Can their > > sign > > > say Kayani Stores - and in small: a Foodland outlet. Couldn't it even > > be a > > > nice business model, as people like to buy food from an old and > > trusted > > > place. In Montreal some people are collecting old signs that have to > > be > > > taken off and are trying to create a museum for these. Funds for this > > are > > > collected, for now, from private donors and the storage space has been > > > obtained for free. > > > > > > So if you know advertising people from the agencies that are designing > > the > > > branding for Foodland and Spencer's and Farm Fresh please speak to > > them. If > > > you know gallery owners or industrialists with some vacant warehouse > > space, > > > please ask them if they could store some precious signs in there for a > > > while. If through signage reform we can create an awareness about a > > certain > > > ethos, then it might even impact architecture design and shop layout > > design > > > and city planning! A signage movement is easier to proceed with than > > > fighting the builders lobby. But if a certain ethos catches on then > > the > > > trend followers shall simply follow. > > > > > > Thanks for your ideas and suggestions so far. I look forward to all > > the > > > press support and any other inputs that can help this cause. I am not > > > leading this movement; it is as much anyone's cause as mine as long as > > they > > > feel the same way about signage and heritage and advertising etc. So > > do > > > write in. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Vishal > > > > > > > > > p.s. Shuddha, I do know about www.dafont.com and we did make digital > > > typefaces out of some found fonts (a very tedious exercise, as not all > > > characters of the font-set are present in the found font.) Some > > enthusiastic > > > students from typography major in J J school of arts have shown a keen > > > > > interest in this area and anyone else who finds a typeface they like > > on the > > > Typocity website - without needing to scour the city - is free to make > > a > > > font out of it. This can be an on ongoing exercise. Some people want > > to > > > commercialise this whole venture - I am not very keen. My main > > interest > > > is in seeing the heritage signs where they belong rather than on my > > screen > > > or on a T-shirt.) > > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < shuddha at sarai.net > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vishal, > > > > > > > > Many thanks for your posting on disappearing signage. As an avowed > > fan > > > > of typographic curiosities I have long been an admirer of your > > efforts > > > > to document the typographic diversity of Bombay. > > > > > > > > I share your concern about the disappearance of signage, because of > > the > > > > ham handed ways in which 'heritage' is interpreted by municipal > > > > authorities. Perhaps one thing that could be done is a small > > travelling > > > > exhibition based on your work in colleges, and other arts > > institutions > > > > in Bombay. And with your documentation, it should not be impossible > > to > > > > convince some of the Bombay papers, say DNA or Mid Day, or even Time > > Out > > > > > > > > Mumbai to publish some articles on the subject. Then maybe, the > > > > 'heritage' lobby itself may be persuaded to step in and realize that > > the > > > > typographic history of Bombay is as much a part of 'heritage' as > > > > anything else. I am sure that there are some people from DNA and Mid > > Day > > > > on this list. > > > > > > > > Perhaps they could come out and take this forward. I thought I would > > > > post in reply to your post because typography is somthing that I > > feel > > > > really strongly about, > > > > > > > > I hope that other people come up with other suggestions, > > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, > > > > > > > > > > In 2002 the Typocity project ( www.typocity.com) was initiated to > > > > document > > > > > typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of Bombay. Since > > then, > > > > many of > > > > > the old signs that we documented are slowly vanishing. However, I > > was > > > > most > > > > > distressed to find that some of this heritage is being destroyed > > by > > > > the > > > > > municipal corporation itself in the name of protecting and > > > > > restoring heritage structures. Nothing can be more absurd. > > > > > > > > > > Please follow this link to see the pictures of replaced signs and > > find > > > > out > > > > > more: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ Do excuse the quality of > > > > some of > > > > > the recent pictures as they were taken on the spur with a > > > > phone-camera. If > > > > > anyone has better pictures of the recently replaced Eastern Watch > > sign > > > > > > > > > please share it with me. > > > > > > > > > > I am desperately looking for suggestions and ideas to counter this > > > > > > lack of > > > > > sensitivity by the municipal corporation. I shall be very grateful > > for > > > > any > > > > > help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > Vishal > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From pkray11 at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 11:28:45 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:28:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee on nuclear power Message-ID: <98f331e00709172258n3d6bca5em6025e23c94a9bb5d@mail.gmail.com> http://www.ptinews.com/pti/ptisite.nsf/$All/C7A7E79DFD09103765257359003E5CFF?OpenDocument We can't avoid nuclear power : Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee Kolkata, Sept 17 (PTI) As his party continued to oppose the Indo-US civil nuclear deal, West Bengal Chief Minister and CPI-M leader Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee today said the country cannot avoid nuclear power and wanted scientists to debate this and come to a conclusion. "We just cannot avoid nuclear power. We should move ahead taking into account the price of nuclear plant and cost of power," Bhattacharjee told an interactive session with the captains of industry organised by CII. Bhattacharya was however silent on the nuke deal. On Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's recent statement that India could not miss the bus of nuclear renaissance, Bhattacharjee said, "We have some doubts about the price of nuclear plants, the cost of power etc. Scientists, planners and economists should discuss this. "Let the scientists debate, we will take a decision after that." Bhattacharjee had yesterday stated that the state government had not taken a decision on nuclear power yet because of divided opinion on it. The state, he said, required more power in coming years because "our growth rate is increasing and FDI is coming." He said that 96 per cent of power in the state was generated by thermal power and "We have to switch over from thermal to solar, wind and other sources of power. In view of the problem of global warming, we need clean power." PTI From pkray11 at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 11:38:14 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:38:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] To PAWAN Message-ID: <98f331e00709172308g7d2d10ddob6d0627975669d1@mail.gmail.com> Bhai, Aapne to mujhe confuse kar diya hai. CPI(M) ke khilaaf kabhi aap sanghiyon ka to kabhi infantile ultras ka logic dete hain.... from udyan to mutiny.. partner aapki politics kya hai... ab ye janne ke baad hi baat hogi... thanks prakash From ajmalkamal at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 11:51:07 2007 From: ajmalkamal at gmail.com (Ajmal Kamal) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:21:07 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Watch Zahid Jamil's Full Presentation on the proposed eCrime Bill in Pakistan Message-ID: <7e6d07440709172321u14d99826s9b7c4ddce6f5f4ec@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Zaheer Alam Kidvai Date: Sep 17, 2007 9:45 AM Subject: Watch Zahid Jamil's Full Presentation on the proposed eCrime Bill To: The proposed eCrime Bill affects everyone. This is the ~90 minute presentation that Lawyer Zahid Jamil made at T2F. It's been broken into <30~minute chunks for convenience. Part 1 - http://tinyurl.com/3ymfz3 Part 2 - http://tinyurl.com/3bde7e Part 3 - http://tinyurl.com/2wfhbh The brief follow-up one-to-one Q&As that cover a few specific situations are a good starting point, if you do not want to watch the longer videos right way - http://tinyurl.com/ynn753 Please circulate these links widely. Thanks. ZAK - -- Ajmal Kamal City Press Publishing House, Bookshop and Film Club 316 Madina City Mall, Abdullah Haroon Road, Saddar, Karachi 74400, Pakistan. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 11:51:08 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:51:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] To PAWAN In-Reply-To: <98f331e00709172308g7d2d10ddob6d0627975669d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00709172308g7d2d10ddob6d0627975669d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709172321w717e90e6mf7b2d26c28063d1@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Prakash , Very honestly you made me laugh . I turned against BJP the time I realised that they ditched the voters who bought them to power over a promise of Ram temple. They enjoyed their power and forgot Ram temple , 370 , kashmiri Pandits etc......in whose name they begged votes. I hated RSS , when they caused a split in Panun Kashmir , which had emerged as a strong KP force . RSS thought by emergence of Panun Kashmir it would lose its hold on KP's. Similarly I started hating Communits the day I expected them to withdraw support to UPA , it was when i saw the brutal assault on workers of Honda in Gurgoan. I was certain that communist would react , but they did not. If they can tolerate it for sake of power , they can compromise for anything. After that day I lost all faith in communist as well. Now ....kya ab aap mujhse baat karenge ? Pawan On 9/18/07, prakash ray wrote: > > Bhai, > Aapne to mujhe confuse kar diya hai. CPI(M) ke khilaaf kabhi aap sanghiyon > ka to kabhi infantile ultras ka logic dete hain.... from udyan to mutiny.. > partner aapki politics kya hai... ab ye janne ke baad hi baat hogi... > > thanks > prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliak77 at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 12:15:02 2007 From: aliak77 at gmail.com (Kath O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:45:02 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709172221w5ad464daq43b18e7973a37db3@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> <46EB5EE1.1080909@sarai.net> <31d5ea920709150228x63dd099eh54a1b02292cd9603@mail.gmail.com> <31d5ea920709171647u54900387yad2a17d0f7c2d4a5@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709172040g4654754w438bf387cda0d3f@mail.gmail.com> <31d5ea920709172221w5ad464daq43b18e7973a37db3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <383607190709172345r4b2f0592ka5ed682f247f3788@mail.gmail.com> Hi Vishal, could you make your own audio tour for your site or ask the heritage sites to link to it also. in Jerusalem they have these - they're handy for people who like doing independant tours rather than with a group or who haven't had time to book the group tour. also you can listen at home to preview it. it could also be a podcast on your site - and people could look at the photos as well if they're not in bombay. eg http://www.jerusalemp3.com/ - there's a few here which are really good. since you seem to be the most passionate - perhaps you should be narrating the tour (or at least writing the script)? & maybe u could include snippets of the interviews you have with the artists or business owners etc for extra info. kath On 9/18/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > Hi Partha, > > Heritage walks in Mumbai do exist, see: http://www.bombayheritagewalks.com/ > > But often heritage only includes architectural structures and historical > precincts. In the particular case that prompted me to re-visit the Typocity > project, an eighty year old sign was removed from the facade of a heritage > building because the former was not considered a part of heritage and was > thought to be corrupting the heritage value of the latter. > -- http://www.aliak.com From ab at vestkunst.dk Tue Sep 18 03:40:28 2007 From: ab at vestkunst.dk (Andreas Broegger) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 00:10:28 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] The TurntablistPC spins again Message-ID: The TurntablistPC spins again! Surfing gains a whole new dimension with TurntablistPC by Danish artist Mogens Jacobsen. Featured in the WEBSCAPE exhibition at The Art Museum of West Sealand in Denmark, TurntablistPC reacts to online traffic by playing a record in the exhibition space every time a participating website is visited. Take part in this "global DJ" project and make a record spin miles away every time someone visits your website! Please join: All you have to do to participate is place a small piece of html code on your website. The code does not interfere in any way with the experience of your website. However, it WILL make the record spin physically miles away at the museum. Please find the code and further details below. TurntablistPC is on show from September 21 until November 25 2007. We need your participation already! We are looking for people maintaining websites anywhere in the world, so please forward this message to other relevant parties. Participants are kindly asked to send an email to WEBSCAPE curator Andreas Broegger (ab at vestkunst.dk) stating the address of the web page to which you have uploaded the code. The Art Museum of West Sealand will list your site among the participating websites in the museum space and on the WEBSCAPE exhibition website. (If you prefer not to be credited, please state this in your email). HOW TO PARTICIPATE All we need from your website is a so-called "counter-hit". This is automatically generated when someone visits your website if you place the following line of HTML-code on your site (preferably at the bottom of your most visited page). This is the code: Please note: ONLY use the above code if your position is EAST of Denmark. If your position is WEST of Soroe, Denmark please use this code instead: This is the exact code to be included, depending on your position. If in doubt the city of Soroe is at 11.5561 East / +11 degrees 33' 21.96". Your position will decide whether the TurntablistPC will spin the record clockwise or counter-clockwise. If you are near the TurntablistPC, it will only scratch the vinyl. If you are far away, it will play a whole section of the record. On a projected world map visitors to the museum space will be able to follow the online traffic triggering the sound. We ask that the code remain on your site throughout the exhibition period (until November 25 2007). TECHNICAL INFORMATION What does the html code do? The above code places a tiny "invisible" image (a transparent GIF-image) on your website when someone visits. Neither the image nor the html code will interfere with the appearance of your website nor with the visitor's experience. The code and the image are a mere 700 bytes (0.7Kb) in total. Participation does not pose any security risk whatsoever, nor is any personal or otherwise sensitive information stored. If you have any doubts about technical issues, please contact WEBSCAPE curator Andreas Broegger at ab at vestkunst.dk WHAT EXACTLY IS TurntablistPC? TurntablistPC is a telematic hybrid of a turntable (a grammophone) and an old personal computer. Installed in the museum space, the TurntablistPC will play a vinyl record whenever someone visits one of the participating websites around the world. A video projection of a world map will show where the participating website is from, thus generating a map of global participation for the visitors in the local museum space. More info and pictures of TurntablistPC are available at http:// www.mogensjacobsen.dk/art/turntablepc/index.html ABOUT THE ARTIST Mogens Jacobsen is a Danish artist who has exhibited widely in Sweden, Finland, Germany, Austria, France, Spain, Japan, Brazil. More info at www.mogensjacobsen.dk ABOUT WEBSCAPE TurntablistPC is featured in WEBSCAPE – ART IN THE VIRTUAL LANDSCAPE, an exhibition of web-based art installations at the Art Museum of West Zealand 2007. The exhibition features work by artists Tomas Th*fner, Mogens Jacobsen (http://www.mogensjacobsen.dk), Bosch & Fjord (http://www.bosch-fjord.com), and Susan Collins (http:// www.susan-collins.net). From parthaekka at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 13:33:51 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:33:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <383607190709172345r4b2f0592ka5ed682f247f3788@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> <46EB5EE1.1080909@sarai.net> <31d5ea920709150228x63dd099eh54a1b02292cd9603@mail.gmail.com> <31d5ea920709171647u54900387yad2a17d0f7c2d4a5@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709172040g4654754w438bf387cda0d3f@mail.gmail.com> <31d5ea920709172221w5ad464daq43b18e7973a37db3@mail.gmail.com> <383607190709172345r4b2f0592ka5ed682f247f3788@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709180103l6a10acc6vc5b7a3492de02e88@mail.gmail.com> Hi Vishal, a) I think that the audio walk through with images is a brilliant idea, like a 'walk through' I can take on the net. If you're upto doing the website, and can give me the background info, I can go about creating blogs and the links to the site to make it a higher hit site (and can handle the feedback forms, etc for the website if you're uncomfortable or too busy for that part of the exercise. b) The reason I mentioned the 'guided walk' is the one I'd seen was by Arts students that walked us around old pubs and stores where they pointed out the old signs and other 'on street displays'. Sure, we looked at the rest of the architecture, etc (and drank some beer) but the tour was about public displays and signs. Then again, had been fixed up by a friend so I don't know if that's a regular and supportable exercise. Though I do believe that Arts students (especially those who do Applied Arts) would be interested in the tour and saving the signage. Rgds, Partha ............................... On 9/18/07, Kath O'Donnell wrote: > > Hi Vishal, could you make your own audio tour for your site or ask the > heritage sites to link to it also. > > in Jerusalem they have these - they're handy for people who like doing > independant tours rather than with a group or who haven't had time to > book the group tour. also you can listen at home to preview it. it > could also be a podcast on your site - and people could look at the > photos as well if they're not in bombay. > eg http://www.jerusalemp3.com/ - there's a few here which are really good. > > since you seem to be the most passionate - perhaps you should be > narrating the tour (or at least writing the script)? & maybe u could > include snippets of the interviews you have with the artists or > business owners etc for extra info. > > kath > > > On 9/18/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > Hi Partha, > > > > Heritage walks in Mumbai do exist, see: > http://www.bombayheritagewalks.com/ > > > > But often heritage only includes architectural structures and historical > > precincts. In the particular case that prompted me to re-visit the > Typocity > > project, an eighty year old sign was removed from the facade of a > heritage > > building because the former was not considered a part of heritage and > was > > thought to be corrupting the heritage value of the latter. > > > > -- > http://www.aliak.com > From parthaekka at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 13:47:17 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:47:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee on nuclear power In-Reply-To: <98f331e00709172258n3d6bca5em6025e23c94a9bb5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00709172258n3d6bca5em6025e23c94a9bb5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990709180117rbcb2c15u29262e7f1bbfac65@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I certainly agree that India is already short of requisite power, and our fairly heavy dependence on thermal power stations (which use coal) is not only environment-unfriendly (both in mining as well as burning). On the hydro-generation front also we have issues because the global warming is melting the glaciers that are the font of our rivers. Realistically speaking, solar and wind power can't really provide the amount of power to be generated and can only be supplemental. Don't see much choice other than nuclear power - which leaves the issue of containing the radioactive material. "Between the devil and the deep blue sea" Rgds, Partha ...................... On 9/18/07, prakash ray wrote: > > > http://www.ptinews.com/pti/ptisite.nsf/$All/C7A7E79DFD09103765257359003E5CFF?OpenDocument > We can't avoid nuclear power : Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee Kolkata, > Sept 17 (PTI) As his party continued to oppose the Indo-US civil nuclear > deal, West Bengal Chief Minister and CPI-M leader Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee > today said the country cannot avoid nuclear power and wanted scientists to > debate this and come to a conclusion. > "We just cannot avoid nuclear power. We should move ahead taking into > account the price of nuclear plant and cost of power," Bhattacharjee told > an > interactive session with the captains of industry organised by CII. > Bhattacharya was however silent on the nuke deal. > > On Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's recent statement that India could not > miss the bus of nuclear renaissance, Bhattacharjee said, "We have some > doubts about the price of nuclear plants, the cost of power etc. > Scientists, > planners and economists should discuss this. > > "Let the scientists debate, we will take a decision after that." > Bhattacharjee had yesterday stated that the state government had not taken > a > decision on nuclear power yet because of divided opinion on it. > > The state, he said, required more power in coming years because "our > growth > rate is increasing and FDI is coming." He said that 96 per cent of power > in > the state was generated by thermal power and "We have to switch over from > thermal to solar, wind and other sources of power. In view of the problem > of > global warming, we need clean power." PTI > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From justjunaid at rediffmail.com Tue Sep 18 14:32:50 2007 From: justjunaid at rediffmail.com (junaid) Date: 18 Sep 2007 09:02:50 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir (To Rahul Asthana) Message-ID: <20070918090250.15873.qmail@webmail10.rediffmail.com>   Dear Rahul, I appreciate that you have brought out a very important argument; albeit one which is generally the last resort for those defeated on the ethical grounds. You imply that ultimately, however immoral, Indian state will continue to occupy Kashmir with force: a typical 'realistic' political statement to make. However, what one misses in arguing this way is that a country's (military) power is not free from vicissitudes of the time and society in which it exists. Frantz Fanon spoke of how oppression not only brutalizes the oppressed but also the soul of the oppressor. Increasingly the national elite begin to use military compulsions as a ruse to shy away from most important needs of the country's citizens. The democratic values of debate are pushed aside as way is paved for military and economic elite to make decisions in backrooms. I remember Shakespeare's words, which are worth quoting at length: "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into patriotic fervour, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am the Ceaser?" Let me tell you something. I personally feel Indian constitution, whatever people might say, is a great document. It has amazing possibilities for people who want to be part of India; it binds them together. The worst enemies of this constitution are the Hindu nationalists. They see it as a big obstacle to their vision of a Hindu state. The values they profess: a masculine, militarized state, not only alienates India's huge minorities and those living in its margins. Thus it is poisoning India’s body-politic, creating conditions for a violent implosion. What is happening in Kashmir, in the North-East, to tribals, to Dalits and Muslims is intimately linked to this process. I believe that India has beaten Kashmiris into a nation. In 1989 when popular insurgency began it was very amorphous and not very well thought out. But 18 years of struggle have made Kashmiris reflect hard on their sense of self. I hear many people now who talk of a long drawn out struggle. They think it was naïve to believe that freedom was very much near. They understand the lessons of war well enough. One time fervent India supporters, including my grandfather, have changed their position completely. They tell their younger generation to get ready. They tell them stories of this struggle. They talk of sacrifices. On the other hand, in India so many people, who thought it was a Pakistan-sponsored terrorism and nothing else, do not speak in that language any more. You have become open to the idea of independence, once an anathema for you! Notice the direction of the wind. The world doesn't remain static. The God of Chance, the biggest of them all, laughs at those who speak of status quo. Who thought Soviet Union would splinter? Or Yugoslavia? Who had thought US will get out of Vietnam? In fact so many people in Britain thought Pax Britannica was forever. That India was theirs forever. But the God of Chance and Indians were thinking otherwise. I agree with you that many Kashmiris are dying, too many of them. But I hear people speak that they have no choice really: When Indians were fighting for their freedom did they stop when Jallianwala Bagh happened, or when Bhagat Singh and his associated were hanged, or thousands of Indians were put behind bars? If Indian State was in fact a real democracy Kashmiris would not have to die. Their democratic rights would be respected, without resort to violence. Keep well, Junaid ***************************************************** Rahul Asthana wrote: Hi Junaid, The points about landlockedness and size etc are to be taken as part of the whole picture.I agree that taking each point in isolation you will find examples that will contradict my points. The biggest point is that India can unilaterally maintain the status quo.Lets just argue about that. If you want to know my opinion,I would want such a solution in which there is no police state;no army occupation.I do not care if Kashmir stays with India or not.I did not want to bring my values into this debate because they do not matter in the long run. But if your argument is on the lines of "Hum honge kaamyaab ek din"..no matter how many people die,then there is nothing to argue. A very sincere all the best to you. regards Rahul --- junaid wrote: >  I wonder how the mainstream Indian discourse on > Kashmir has been internalized, so much that > independence for Kashmir as a non-possibility is > seen as natural and obvious. What is it that makes > even the Indian Kashmir-sympathizers take > anything-short-of-independence as axiomatic? Why > can't anyone here make a reasonable, educated > argument about why this should be the case? > > Do not speak of size, for Kashmir (valley) is > definitely larger than many countries in the world. > If you speak of its land-lockedness, then I can > count you a number of European and Asian countries > that are small and land-locked. If you speak of > three Asian bullies—India, Pakistan and > China—surrounding it, then I must say international > treaties, bilateral non-aggression pacts, and > Kashmir's neutrality will be Kashmir's best defense. > Aren't so many small countries surviving, and > actually doing well, with really no defense in > place, but just goodwill and international norms? If > you say, lack of economic self-reliance, then I will > just point to the great natural and human resources > in Kashmir. > > And if it is a unique case, then let it be a unique > country in the world. Weak, Poor, and Defenceless. > But a country whose people are the masters of their > fate. > > If you are still stuck up on "anything-short-of..." > argument then I must tell you Kashmiris really don’t > give a damn. They fight for freedom, and they will > surely learn how to handle it. Before British left > Indian subcontinent, they used to make a similar > argument. The Indian visionaries made the counter > argument that you can't learn to love freedom and > democracy unless you taste it. Although Indians have > not come up to the expectations, and its > elite--Brahmanical as well as corporate--have > cozened and defrauded the lower castes and the poor, > yet India is not doing that badly. Since Kashmir is > not beset with so many contradictions like > post-independence India, I guess it will outdo India > in preserving freedom. > > Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied. From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 14:37:40 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:37:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <383607190709172345r4b2f0592ka5ed682f247f3788@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> <46EB5EE1.1080909@sarai.net> <31d5ea920709150228x63dd099eh54a1b02292cd9603@mail.gmail.com> <31d5ea920709171647u54900387yad2a17d0f7c2d4a5@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709172040g4654754w438bf387cda0d3f@mail.gmail.com> <31d5ea920709172221w5ad464daq43b18e7973a37db3@mail.gmail.com> <383607190709172345r4b2f0592ka5ed682f247f3788@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709180207k4dc6ec5bn5317949e24126dd6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kath, Partha, I do have a website, please see www.typocity.com . It has images and text but no audio. I don't think an audio tour is necessary and this could get complicted for various reasons. The way the documentation has been catergorised on the website is not always according to the location of these signs, but sometimes according to production techique or a design genre it falls under etc. etc. - where different signs from diferent areas have been clubbed together. Having said that, I am also working on an audio networking project using telephones and voice mail boxes located on a server. This project is not specific to the protection of heritage signs however. But one use of this network can be to have an audio tour that people can access through their mobile phones as they walk through a precinct. The particular neighbourhood shall have stickers advertising the phone number to call to access the audio tour. On dialling this number the pre-recorded voice shall guide the tourist: "If you are facing this sticker then to your left is the clock tower built in 1856 in the Indo-sarcenic style... Now walk ten paces to the right and you should be under the arch...Notice the Victorian lettering under the arch. .. etc. etc." Another cool feature of this system is that tourists can also record their comments/ feedback on to the server. They can also hear other such previously recorded messages. Although I plan to get the inital tour recorded by a historian/ heritage expert, I also plan on interviewing residents of the area to get their testimonies about the neighbourhood they inhabit and some of their personal histories as well, in order to shed light on the sort of mileu that inhabits the space... So this audio tour shall be ever growing, with people adding reccomendations of food places in the area, quaint shops to visit etc. etc. Different sections of the tour shall be put in different voice mailboxes that can be accessed from the main menu (press 5 to hear Mr. Tandel talk about his grandfather moving into this area in 1902, etc) The technology for the project has already been developed and tested. I do not have the time and the requisite funds to work on its implementation just now. But I do hope to implement it sometime soon. This can be described as sonic graffiti that can be accessed through a phone number advertised on a wall. It is also a form of "locative media". Hopefully this shall be more impactful than websites and print articles. The disadvantage of websites is that it does not always create an awareness on the ground. Old shop owners are unlikely to log on. There is also a language issue. English content is not read by many locals. So the audio tour can be in English and Hindi (dial 1 for english, 2 for Hindi, type of system). Thank you very much for your feedback and support. This shall keep me motivated. Best, Vishal p.s. Kath I noticed that you had posted earlier on the Airjaldi network. I am also very intersted in that kind of stuff and my telephone networking system is an attempt to create an egalitarian networking system to bridge the digital divide. I shall post in more length about it some other time. You guys may also be interested in a previous project of mine: http://www.bombay-arts.com/netart/bombaysonic.html Also see Kabi Sherman's project: http://meterdown.wordpress.com On 9/18/07, Kath O'Donnell wrote: > > Hi Vishal, could you make your own audio tour for your site or ask the > heritage sites to link to it also. > > in Jerusalem they have these - they're handy for people who like doing > independant tours rather than with a group or who haven't had time to > book the group tour. also you can listen at home to preview it. it > could also be a podcast on your site - and people could look at the > photos as well if they're not in bombay. > eg http://www.jerusalemp3.com/ - there's a few here which are really good. > > > since you seem to be the most passionate - perhaps you should be > narrating the tour (or at least writing the script)? & maybe u could > include snippets of the interviews you have with the artists or > business owners etc for extra info. > > kath > > > On 9/18/07, Vishal Rawlley < vishal.rawlley at gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Partha, > > > > Heritage walks in Mumbai do exist, see: > http://www.bombayheritagewalks.com/ > > > > But often heritage only includes architectural structures and historical > > precincts. In the particular case that prompted me to re-visit the > Typocity > > project, an eighty year old sign was removed from the facade of a > heritage > > building because the former was not considered a part of heritage and > was > > thought to be corrupting the heritage value of the latter. > > > > -- > http://www.aliak.com > From pk at kein.org Tue Sep 18 14:48:04 2007 From: pk at kein.org (paul keller) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:18:04 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] kaafila (liquid europe and solid sea revisited) Message-ID: <9853CAC9-D829-4219-9466-DD96ABDD5F74@kein.org> dear all, thought this little film review that i have written for my blog might be of intrest to this list. it dels with the recently released movie 'kaafila' that among much other nonsense contains a scene that is 'inspired' by the 'malta boat tragedy' that took place on december 26th 1996. (also see the 2002 nettime 'liquid europe and solid sea' posting by multiplicity, which refers to the the same incident as 'the ghost ship': http://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime- l-0209/msg00054.html). /paul > so over the last three weeks i have been watching 'kaafila' which > bills itself as a movie based on the 'global issue of illegal > migration'. it took me 3 weeks to watch because (a) it is a > Bollywood movie (and thus runs for three plus hours) and (b) > because it is so incredibly bad that i could not muster the courage > to watch bits that were longer than 15 minutes. matter of fact it > is so bad that that the songs (those ridiculous dancing/singing > scenes that are required to interrupt Bollywood productions every > so often) were more bearable than the 'story' itself. > > So why did i buy it in the first place then? Kaafila contains a > scene that depicts what has become to be known as the 'malta boat > tragedy': the sinking - off the coast of the sicilian town of > Portapalo on december 26th 1996 - of a ship carrying more than 300 > south-east asian migrants bound for italy. (see: http:// > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portopalo_di_Capo_Passero) more than 280 > migrants lost their lives in this disaster (the worst post WWII > maritime accident in the Mediterranean) and i was curious how this > would be portrayed in a feature film made in one of the countries > where a large part of the victims was hailing from. plus some of > the reviews actually did sound quite intriguing: > >> ... in their effort to forge ahead closer to their dream, the >> innocent dozen finds itself trapped sometimes by the Russian mafia >> involved in the plutonium smuggling racket and sometimes by the >> militancy on the Afghan borders. Here they meet an Afghani girl... >> from: http://www.movietalkies.com/movies/index.asp?MovieId=18670 > > now as i said the movie is exceptionally bad. the story is erratic > at best, the characters depicted are extremely unrealistic > (although the opening credits of the film actually try to make a > somewhat realistic introduction into the migrants' motives for > seeking their luck elsewhere) and, on top of this, the trajectory > of the journey defies any logic at all: > > from India our group of migrants is first flown to Moscow where > they are held captive by a Pakistani trafficker for 5 months. he > finally takes them across the border to Ukraine (shooting one of > them on the way) but decides to take them back to Russia after one > of them lights a fire at night which, according to the trafficker, > will alert the border guards and guarantee the group's arrest. > > on the way back another of the migrants freezes to death under fake > styrofoam snow while hiding from a helicopter. back in Russia the > group heads towards the Black sea coast where they board a ship > that is supposed to take them to Malta. in real life this would > mean crossing the Black sea, sailing through the Bosporus, crossing > the Aegean sea, sailing around Apulia to continue to Malta (or to > be more exact Sicily where the real 'malta boat tragedy' took > place). in Kaalifa our heroes board the boat and immediately burst > into another dancing scene to the films theme song 'Chala Kaafila', > a strange mix between eurotrash and hindi film music: > >> Chala Kaafila is a outcome of a confused state of mind. With music >> lingering somewhere between the genres of folk and club mix, Chala >> Kaafila boasts of a strong blend of North Indian music with >> unnecessary westernized musical goof ups. [from: RS Bollywood >> Online music reviews http://www.radiosargam.com/films/archives/ >> 5942/music-review-kaafila-2007.htm] > > The song opens with the singer (the only female on board who > somehow disappears before the ship goes down) shouting 'i don't > want to wait no more let's bring the house down' over extremely > annoying house beats. this is followed by mad dancing of the > assembled 300 migrants on the deck of the doomed ship and once the > song ends the ship's passengers become aware of a giant wave > (clearly inspired by the 2004 asian tsunami, which coincidentally > also happened on a 26th of December) slowly approaching and jump > ship in fear. > > for some reason (supposedly because they cling to pieces of wood > taken from the ship before jumping into the sea) our 10 remaining > heroes are the only ones to survive and wash up on a beach (which > turns out to be the Russian Black sea coast again). here our heroes > meet the wife of an mad Indian nuclear engineer who is selling > liquid plutonium to the Taleban (with the help of the Russian > mafia). for rather unclear reasons the wife is shot dead by the > Mafia and in this moment, out of nowhere, the above-mentioned > Afghani girl appears, secures the liquid plutonium, a bag of giant > diamonds and offers our heros a lift to Kazaksthan. > > from here on the 'innocent dozen' comes under the protection of a > dubious pakistani I.S.I agent who teams up with the Afghani girl to > fend off waves of waves of russian mafia killers and taleban > fighters attempting to kill our heros while they cross Tadzhikistan > and Afghanistan heading towards Pakistan (along the way various > attempts to put them on a plane to Europe fail). En route 4 more of > them are being killed despite the incredible marksmanship of the > Pakistani agent and the Afghani girl, who kill dozens after dozens > of the attackers. > > Finally, in Pakistan the I.S.I agent somehow reconciles with his > superiors (in one scene he seems to be talking to Pervez Musharraf > himself) who had been pissed off with him for another unclear > reason (there are hints that he was suspected to be involved in > some Abdul Qadeer Khan style nuclear proliferation operation > himself) and arranges for our heroes' safe passage across the > border to India. in the final scene the 6 remaining migrants plus > the Afghani girl can be seen walking to back towards an imagined > India, now being completely cured of their initial desire to leave > mother India and find their luck in England... From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 15:27:57 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:27:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir (To Rahul Asthana) In-Reply-To: <20070918090250.15873.qmail@webmail10.rediffmail.com> References: <20070918090250.15873.qmail@webmail10.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709180257g175199c0u11f84d198e8170fc@mail.gmail.com> Junaid wrote >>>>>>>>>> Let me tell you something. I personally feel Indian constitution, whatever people might say, is a great document. It has amazing possibilities for people who want to be part of India; it binds them together. The worst enemies of this constitution are the Hindu nationalists. They see it as a big obstacle to their vision of a Hindu state. The values they profess: a masculine, militarized state, not only alienates India's huge minorities and those living in its margins. Thus it is poisoning India's body-politic, creating conditions for a violent implosion. What is happening in Kashmir, in the North-East, to tribals, to Dalits and Muslims is intimately linked to this process.>>>>>>>>>>> Dear VASP , I would like to hear your comment on Junaids complete mail and more so on the above para. I was expecting Junaid to come out with his motives , which he has with this mail . I do not wish to discuss his ideology much as I have lived with hundreds of Junaids for whom nationalism is linked to Hinduism and not Islam. And for Juanid , how did you miss out this quote from Sheakspeare "O, if you rear this house against this house, It will the woefullest division prove That ever fell upon this cursed earth. Prevent it, resist it, let it not be so, Lest child, child's children, cry against you 'Woe!' regards Pawan On 18 Sep 2007 09:02:50 -0000, junaid wrote: > > > Dear Rahul, > > I appreciate that you have brought out a very important argument; albeit > one which is generally the last resort for those defeated on the ethical > grounds. You imply that ultimately, however immoral, Indian state will > continue to occupy Kashmir with force: a typical 'realistic' political > statement to make. However, what one misses in arguing this way is that a > country's (military) power is not free from vicissitudes of the time and > society in which it exists. > > Frantz Fanon spoke of how oppression not only brutalizes the oppressed but > also the soul of the oppressor. Increasingly the national elite begin to use > military compulsions as a ruse to shy away from most important needs of the > country's citizens. The democratic values of debate are pushed aside as way > is paved for military and economic elite to make decisions in backrooms. > > I remember Shakespeare's words, which are worth quoting at length: "Beware > the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into > patriotic fervour, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both > emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind And when the drums of war > have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has > closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. > Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will > offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? > For this is what I have done. And I am the Ceaser?" > > Let me tell you something. I personally feel Indian constitution, whatever > people might say, is a great document. It has amazing possibilities for > people who want to be part of India; it binds them together. The worst > enemies of this constitution are the Hindu nationalists. They see it as a > big obstacle to their vision of a Hindu state. The values they profess: a > masculine, militarized state, not only alienates India's huge minorities and > those living in its margins. Thus it is poisoning India's body-politic, > creating conditions for a violent implosion. What is happening in Kashmir, > in the North-East, to tribals, to Dalits and Muslims is intimately linked to > this process. > > I believe that India has beaten Kashmiris into a nation. In 1989 when > popular insurgency began it was very amorphous and not very well thought > out. But 18 years of struggle have made Kashmiris reflect hard on their > sense of self. I hear many people now who talk of a long drawn out struggle. > They think it was naïve to believe that freedom was very much near. They > understand the lessons of war well enough. One time fervent India > supporters, including my grandfather, have changed their position > completely. They tell their younger generation to get ready. They tell them > stories of this struggle. They talk of sacrifices. > > On the other hand, in India so many people, who thought it was a > Pakistan-sponsored terrorism and nothing else, do not speak in that language > any more. You have become open to the idea of independence, once an anathema > for you! Notice the direction of the wind. > The world doesn't remain static. The God of Chance, the biggest of > them all, laughs at those who speak of status quo. Who thought Soviet Union > would splinter? Or Yugoslavia? Who had thought US will get out of Vietnam? > In fact so many people in Britain thought Pax Britannica was forever. That > India was theirs forever. But the God of Chance and Indians were thinking > otherwise. > I agree with you that many Kashmiris are dying, too many of them. > But I hear people speak that they have no choice really: When Indians were > fighting for their freedom did they stop when Jallianwala Bagh happened, or > when Bhagat Singh and his associated were hanged, or thousands of Indians > were put behind bars? If Indian State was in fact a real democracy Kashmiris > would not have to die. Their democratic rights would be respected, without > resort to violence. > > Keep well, > Junaid > ***************************************************** > Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Hi Junaid, > The points about landlockedness and size etc are to be > taken as part of the whole picture.I agree that taking > each point in isolation you will find examples that > will contradict my points. > The biggest point is that India can unilaterally > maintain the status quo.Lets just argue about that. > If you want to know my opinion,I would want such a > solution in which there is no police state;no army > occupation.I do not care if Kashmir stays with India > or not.I did not want to bring my values into this > debate because they do not matter in the long run. > But if your argument is on the lines of "Hum honge > kaamyaab ek din"..no matter how many people die,then > there is nothing to argue. > A very sincere all the best to you. > regards > Rahul > > --- junaid wrote: > > >  I wonder how the mainstream Indian discourse on > > Kashmir has been internalized, so much that > > independence for Kashmir as a non-possibility is > > seen as natural and obvious. What is it that makes > > even the Indian Kashmir-sympathizers take > > anything-short-of-independence as axiomatic? Why > > can't anyone here make a reasonable, educated > > argument about why this should be the case? > > > > Do not speak of size, for Kashmir (valley) is > > definitely larger than many countries in the world. > > If you speak of its land-lockedness, then I can > > count you a number of European and Asian countries > > that are small and land-locked. If you speak of > > three Asian bullies—India, Pakistan and > > China—surrounding it, then I must say international > > treaties, bilateral non-aggression pacts, and > > Kashmir's neutrality will be Kashmir's best defense. > > Aren't so many small countries surviving, and > > actually doing well, with really no defense in > > place, but just goodwill and international norms? If > > you say, lack of economic self-reliance, then I will > > just point to the great natural and human resources > > in Kashmir. > > > > And if it is a unique case, then let it be a unique > > country in the world. Weak, Poor, and Defenceless. > > But a country whose people are the masters of their > > fate. > > > > If you are still stuck up on "anything-short-of..." > > argument then I must tell you Kashmiris really donÂ't > > give a damn. They fight for freedom, and they will > > surely learn how to handle it. Before British left > > Indian subcontinent, they used to make a similar > > argument. The Indian visionaries made the counter > > argument that you can't learn to love freedom and > > democracy unless you taste it. Although Indians have > > not come up to the expectations, and its > > elite--Brahmanical as well as corporate--have > > cozened and defrauded the lower castes and the poor, > > yet India is not doing that badly. Since Kashmir is > > not beset with so many contradictions like > > post-independence India, I guess it will outdo India > > in preserving freedom. > > > > Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From patrice at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 18 16:52:53 2007 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:22:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Reader-list] Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee on nuclear power In-Reply-To: <32144e990709180117rbcb2c15u29262e7f1bbfac65@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00709172258n3d6bca5em6025e23c94a9bb5d@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709180117rbcb2c15u29262e7f1bbfac65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <19449.82.193.222.2.1190114573.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> No problem, according to Steward Brand in the Economist: http://tinyurl.com/3289cs (interesting article as a whole btw) You simply make sure the stuff is buried safe for the next hundred year, and our successors will extract the left+over energy from it. So Buddha is in good company (?) cheers from Zagreb, p+2D! > Hi, > > I certainly agree that India is already short of requisite power, and our > fairly heavy dependence on thermal power stations (which use coal) is not > only environment-unfriendly (both in mining as well as burning). > > On the hydro-generation front also we have issues because the global > warming > is melting the glaciers that are the font of our rivers. > > Realistically speaking, solar and wind power can't really provide the > amount > of power to be generated and can only be supplemental. > > Don't see much choice other than nuclear power - which leaves the issue of > containing the radioactive material. > > "Between the devil and the deep blue sea" > > Rgds, Partha > ...................... > > On 9/18/07, prakash ray wrote: >> >> >> http://www.ptinews.com/pti/ptisite.nsf/$All/C7A7E79DFD09103765257359003E5CFF?OpenDocument >> We can't avoid nuclear power : Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee Kolkata, > (...) From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 17:51:20 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:21:20 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709172056p43eb7fcfgcd6b410f5141571a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> <46EE1118.4060608@sarai.net> <9c06aab30709170541s176f09a6pf2a15257cfc79e30@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709171000j47e90a5ahd5b8bb7be9748eb@mail.gmail.com> <46EEC288.1050101@googlemail.com> <6b79f1a70709172056p43eb7fcfgcd6b410f5141571a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EFC2C0.7010509@googlemail.com> Dear Pawan, The BJP, VHP. etc., should be shunned because while they fill the void, they fill it with hate and violence, whereas the issue at hand is life - survival of an ecosystem and of fisherfolk. If Sethusamudram is projected as a Hindu issue, why should Muslim or Christian fisherfolk and others worry about it? If it is an ecological issue and one of livelihood for fisherfolk regardless of religion, everybody will be concerned. I do not know whether the prominent activists you refer to have taken it up or not, but if they in deed have not, I would imagine they might be wary of being viewed as associating themselves with a group that promotes hate and thrives on violence, and has been openly hostile in the past (on Narmada, etc.). In other words, I think the cause of Sethusamudram would have been well served if the BJP and VHP had left it alone and not turned it into a religious issue. I cannot, and do not want to, speak for the communists. But my personal - and possibly limited - understanding is that they have no concern for environmental issues whatsoever, just like the Hindutva bloc. In any stand they take, on any issue, the sole concern is power - namely, whether it is congruent with the aim of gaining political power or not. (In my very limited knowledge, this is the legacy of Lenin and Stalin.) Once one understands this, it is easy to understand every action of theirs. But the question remains - do you think Sethusamudram would deserve your attention even if there was no mythology attached to it? Tapas Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Mr Ray , > > I would not have cared for BJP /VHP protesting against Sethu Samundram > project , had the same "bunch" of people come out in streets and held > demonstrarions against the project , who had earlier protested narmada > project and were part of Chipko movement. > > Where are Arundhatis and Medhas of this world ? > > I am sure they dont care about this issue and hence would stay back in > their AS rooms polluting the atmosphere. > > Since they did not step in , why shouldnt I support BJP or VHP ...they > are filling in the void. > > And so far i havent come across the stand of the Communist ? Is it the > same as that of Karunnadhi ? > > Pawan > > > > > On 9/17/07, *Tapas Ray* > wrote: > > Pawan, > > If you care about ecology, don't you think that should be because it has > a value in itself, regardless of whether or not it has value as sacred > ground/water? If the channel had no mythology attached, would it be ok > to alter its ecosystem? The meaning of "more so" is not clear to me. The > way I see it, it is either worth preserving or it is not. Can't be > both. > > As for the BJP and VHP, which have shown complete insensitivity to > ecological issues, would you like to see them hijack a major ecological > issue for their own political ends? As someone who is concerned about > ecology, are you not concerned that this would hurt the eco movement? > > Tapas > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 19:11:55 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Two Iqbals & One Faiz and AnalHaq In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0709151411m79ba2c42q445623adc7f4124c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <239291.16717.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yasir Thank you for a wonderful mail. A stream I rushed over and then repeatedly negotiated up and down looking for the eddies and crisscrossing currents. When the limiting banks are spaced wide apart, the flow is a gentle one. Narrowness brings in raging ferocity. Yasir, I vent at you. Please feel free to say at any time "Basta Ya! (Enough)" (courtesy Naeem). My only defence is through Ghalib's lament "Koi chaarasaaz hotaa, koi ghamgusaar hotaa" (Where is the who will heal, the one who will share my sorrows) Yesterday, I tuned into PTV and the anchor mentioned the guest's name. I think it was Khurram Shafique Ali. Strange coincidence if it was the same Khurram that you have mentioned. He spoke on Sufism inter-sped with some lovely singing by Iqbal "Bahu". He sectionalised 500 year periods, beginning with the time of the Ummayads and the latest one of Shah Waliullah and Iqbal. And he said something that was amazing. The first Sufis he said were Abubaqar and Ali. The traditions linked with Ali and Shian e Ali are often talked about in connection with Sufism (especially reaching back into the controversial "Mun kunto maula, fa Ali un Maula" - "Ali too is the master of one who accepts me as master") but the first Khalifa being mentioned was something astounding for me. I have read opinions that the etymology of word Sufi was from the dress made out of Soof (wool) that some of the Sahabas wore but it was the first time I came across any linkage with Abubaqar. The "soof" to "Sufi" route is dismissed by some through a Rivaayat quoting Aisha saying that Mohammad hated the smell of wool. (Not ascribing this to it, but the politics of Hadeeths and Rivaayats is an intriguing subject) Another interesting perspective on this (not by Khurram) is that Mohammad was the finest Sufi, one in direct communion with Allah (Jibreel notwithstanding) and that is THE "stage" to reach. Al Kamil (complete) You mention "fanaa" in connection with Analhaq. To me "fanaa" suggests motility. Because of my own background perhaps, I am drawn more towards the "awareness" in "Vahdat ul Vajood" (Oneness of All, no distinction between Creator and Creation) even if the two are inter-linked. Most times when I have spoken about the Sufiana aspect of Iqbal, it has been received with derision. Your explanations Yasir, and having heard Khurram yesterday, reaffirmed my faith that I have not been blasphemous. I then see strange contradictions in some commentators (including Dr Israr Ahmed) when they quote Iqbal in the midst of the overall thrust of what they preach/advocate. Iqbal did prod Jinnah towards Lands for Muslims (plural is important but thats another story), but nowhere have I (this far) come across Iqbal denigrating other religions (as being different from denigrating the people of another religion that he did not want Muslims to live with in subjugation because of being a minority). Certainly not the Iqbal in the period of "Ram e Hind" is "Jaam e Hind" and neither after becoming a London-Returned Dr Iqbal (his defining period). Maybe my knowledge is limited. Iqbal, however failed in his Islamo-political vision with a secularism-insistent Jinnah. That Jinnah too failed is another story. That leaves Faiz. Will leave Faiz or rather cradle him into another post. Once again Yasir, accept my thanks. yasir ~ wrote: sorry havent had a chance to reply. keeping up with the list is impossible at the moment due to my own engagements and the daunting list volume... and the repititious predictable arguments with occasional gems here and there ... I agree that things apparently black and white become so many shades of grey. so, sufism or (other form of religion) may be deeply personal, but there are also some distinct (and living) traditions, practices and trends including heretical, heterodox, orthodox and absorption/rejection of the ideas in specific ways depending on the (religious) frames of reference (such as particular sunni/shia subsects). so yes there are different types, schools (tariqa), traditions, amalgamations, and practices - which sometimes borrow from christian, jewish, sadhu, hindu ideas and practices. they may also be geographically distinct. with iqbal as one goes through his distnct 5 stages gaining the wisdoms of Adam/transcendence, Angels/freedom, Soul/action, Love/expansion and Civilization/creation, the last is the understanding of society and history as creation, after having gone through the rest. Khurram Shafique claims iqbal follows this pattern in an enigmatic way throughout his works, poems, prose works and down to the structure and order of couplets in his poems ! analhaq isa certain historical moment - it really is the expression of 'fana' - disappeance into a larger entity - the metaphysics of this (god, man etc) and the eschatology (stages/states and identifications/relations) is different for different sufis living in different times - with all the above also applying. for faiz the historical moment of offering ones head is a small step, a particularly rebellious step against the oppressors (intolerant of realities other than of their own power) - who would rather have this version of reality (in the head and person) obliterated. In such a scenario how can the ethos fail to be religious. Maududi does have a sufistic background/environment but he came to dislike it as wasted effort quite early. his reading of history is not orthodox such as on the early caliphate (khilafat aur malookiat - but i would not be able to say anything more specific than this. frequently the beloved is god. this scheme with much elaboration, symbolism and nuances is there in early sufis as well as ghazal of khomeini, ghalib or faiz. while this may be a problem (if taken literally) for atheists who are fundamentalist insisting on a strong form of materialism (metaphysics in which matter is the primary material), this may not be a problem for dualists (mind and matter), monists of the other king (mind/spirit/god as primary) and agnostics (who has seen the other side - we might get a surprise). this doesnt exhaust the possibilities or the arguments. While my guess would be: faiz leaning towards agnosticism, his basic definition of truth is something like, following the trail of the beloved. on the other hand (from intizar hussain) faiz would be what is a cultural muslim for whom the debate about god's existence is meaningless. this is a fairly common attitude for non-religious types in every trade. Kshemendra, i find your urges and observations fascinating. this is heterodoxy and probably what is most interesting in itself - but of least interest to bigots, alas. you been hanging out in the wrong places sometimes without a choice. best On 9/12/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Rahul and Yasir and all other interested ones > > "These matters that with myself I too much discuss > Too much explain" > From Ash Wednesday by T S Eliot _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 20:01:23 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 07:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] UN-SUBSCRIBE In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709170954l22763f0dr908e7df3e5afe586@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <250544.9865.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> HI pawan, Thank you. I was quite busy with some work. Any way there is no change even after my quit for some time. Its quite sad to know that certain people dont know the difference between SHADDA and SHRADDHA(Annual ritual in memory to the dead). Sethu samudram project is planned to benefit Tamilnadu Politics and contractors. Forget ecology,mythology etc.,. This is not at all an issue except for making some noise. Since long ships are moving quite nicely from East to West. Roundtrip doesnt make big cause. . If you(anybody) are a student then the teacher tries to put you under best techniques. How the teacher moulds you TEACHER concern. How you learn without any pressure is your concern. If you are an Head of the family, you need to fulfill the basic needs and desires of the members. (satisfying the needs of the family members is Head of the family concern) Otherwise family members feel unhappy. {you is applicable anyfamily} If you(anybody) are an EMPLOYEE then MANAGEMENT must sanction leaves to make you happy, like that performace based incentives etc., etc., Then only company will survive and run. (Management concern). Otherwise employee(every single) feel unhappy. If Some body in power, the corresponding functionaries should be allowed to feel the joy of power with gifts. State or Centre or whatever this is the basic funda in management,power,polity. like wise many... .... .... .... Those who manage the things better at the satisfaction of the others criticism is the best part. However there are differences anywhere. Those novices who do not understand this are shouting on this and there is no alternative for this who ever comes into power and where ever the location it is. Not everybody can be a late Gandhi,Nehru, and every freedom fighghter died for a cause and all the INDIAN innocent soldiers died at succesive events. Regards, Dhatri. Pawan Durani wrote: Dhatri , Come back to the jungle ! We have to teach them common sense . Afetr all for them common sense is not so common. Pawan On 9/17/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: Dear Dhatri ji, Farewell, Best Shuddha we wi wrote: > Dear All, > > CC was the practice that everybody following and no body adviced anybody. Any way I will be un-subscribing from SARAI. It is a great pleasure to read the members and their views on various topics. Hope you all continue with the words LIPTA,MATRA and ANIMESHI. > > I thank everybody for giving me an opportunity to write here and I express my deep sorrow over my all known/unknown mistakes that hurts you if any. In particular I thank the moderator of SARAI. Wishing you all peace and more knowledge with good health. > > Jai Hind, > Your Truly, > Dhatri. > > Tapas Ray wrote: > Could the preaching stop, please? This list is probably not an > appropriate forum for expounding on the Gita or Bible or Quran or Talmud > or what have you. It is for the honing of one's own reason on the > other's reason and vice versa, and the emergence of a common > understanding of life through this process. Faith, which is dogma and > not reason, has no place in this scheme. > > Tapas > > > we wi wrote: > >>Nice Reply. >> >>Regards, >>Dhatri. >> >>radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >>Dear all, >>it is common sense that tell us that as a child is born, mother is truth, father is faith, as the child grows, it gets all the trappings of faith, when child is born it does not get faith, it is told by its mother, that some male is his / her father, it is faith. So also in society, where knowledge ends, faith commences. >>Gita for me is the way of life far above the religious scriptures, as it shows the way of life, secrets of knowledge where we get answers to questions that arise in our intellect about all that is material, intellectual and spiritual. It does not distinguish the humans on "caste' as we see the castes today, it talks of work or vocation of an individual in society and his duties to society and exhorts him to do his work in society and serve the society without waiting for the fruits of his good work, submit all the actions to the supreme soul, so that his soul identifies itself with supreme soul that is GOD, called by any name, Shiva, Ram, Christ or Allah. As the names are only by choice of the faithful to their percieved GOD, who is one for all humanity, living beings in form or in Sakara roop, or in Nirvikara swaroop a super soul of all the souls, all actions have reactions, some immediate, some menifest, some delayed reactions to every action in society. >>The day, all humans understand their role in society to live life with compassion and affection to all in society, >>be responsible and responsive to others in society and identify their interest with that of society, rise above greed and selfish interests, all in society will have better life, as ills in society will lose out to good in society. Good of the individuals in society is GOD to all in society. >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: we wi >>Date: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:11 pm >>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER0**** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg >>To: Partha Dasgupta >> >>Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, readerlist , Jeebesh Bagchi >> >> >>>Dear Partha, >>> >>> >>>If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal >>>issues, I should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains >>>me. As per my knowledge SARAI reader list voice, >>>reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting >>>BHAGAVATGEETA, >>>sadrsam cestate svasyah >>>prakrter jnanavan api >>>prakrtim yanti bhutani >>>nigrahah kim karisyati >>> > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 20:02:59 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 07:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] UN-SUBSCRIBE In-Reply-To: <46EE7BD1.1030003@sarai.net> Message-ID: <62130.68364.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Shudda, As there is no welcome so no farewell as well. Regards, Dhatri. Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: Dear Dhatri ji, Farewell, Best Shuddha we wi wrote: > Dear All, > > CC was the practice that everybody following and no body adviced anybody. Any way I will be un-subscribing from SARAI. It is a great pleasure to read the members and their views on various topics. Hope you all continue with the words LIPTA,MATRA and ANIMESHI. > > I thank everybody for giving me an opportunity to write here and I express my deep sorrow over my all known/unknown mistakes that hurts you if any. In particular I thank the moderator of SARAI. Wishing you all peace and more knowledge with good health. > > Jai Hind, > Your Truly, > Dhatri. > > Tapas Ray wrote: > Could the preaching stop, please? This list is probably not an > appropriate forum for expounding on the Gita or Bible or Quran or Talmud > or what have you. It is for the honing of one's own reason on the > other's reason and vice versa, and the emergence of a common > understanding of life through this process. Faith, which is dogma and > not reason, has no place in this scheme. > > Tapas > > > we wi wrote: > >>Nice Reply. >> >>Regards, >>Dhatri. >> >>radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >>Dear all, >>it is common sense that tell us that as a child is born, mother is truth, father is faith, as the child grows, it gets all the trappings of faith, when child is born it does not get faith, it is told by its mother, that some male is his / her father, it is faith. So also in society, where knowledge ends, faith commences. >>Gita for me is the way of life far above the religious scriptures, as it shows the way of life, secrets of knowledge where we get answers to questions that arise in our intellect about all that is material, intellectual and spiritual. It does not distinguish the humans on "caste' as we see the castes today, it talks of work or vocation of an individual in society and his duties to society and exhorts him to do his work in society and serve the society without waiting for the fruits of his good work, submit all the actions to the supreme soul, so that his soul identifies itself with supreme soul that is GOD, called by any name, Shiva, Ram, Christ or Allah. As the names are only by choice of the faithful to their percieved GOD, who is one for all humanity, living beings in form or in Sakara roop, or in Nirvikara swaroop a super soul of all the souls, all actions have reactions, some immediate, some menifest, some delayed reactions to every action in society. >>The day, all humans understand their role in society to live life with compassion and affection to all in society, >>be responsible and responsive to others in society and identify their interest with that of society, rise above greed and selfish interests, all in society will have better life, as ills in society will lose out to good in society. Good of the individuals in society is GOD to all in society. >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: we wi >>Date: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:11 pm >>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ****IPR/PATENTING OVER0****http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg >>To: Partha Dasgupta >> >>Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, readerlist , Jeebesh Bagchi >> >> >>>Dear Partha, >>> >>> >>>If I remember Mr Bagchi comments not to write the personal >>>issues, I should not attend to your posts, but some thing refrains >>>me. As per my knowledge SARAI reader list voice, >>>reach many places in the world. Any way let me write by quoting >>>BHAGAVATGEETA, >>>sadrsam cestate svasyah >>>prakrter jnanavan api >>>prakrtim yanti bhutani >>>nigrahah kim karisyati >>> > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. From jbnaudy at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 23:21:17 2007 From: jbnaudy at gmail.com (Jean-Baptiste Naudy) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:51:17 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] "Discussions about Politics and Design", Ze Dos Bois (Lisbon) September, 20-21, 2007. Message-ID: Discussions about Politics and Design Ze Dos Bois, Lisbon, September, 20-21, 2007. Conferences on the occasion of the finissage of Société Réaliste's Transitioners exhibition. Participants: Eric Alliez (Paris), Vicken Cheterian (Geneva), Cosmin Costinas (Vienna), Jose Neves (Lisbon) and Olivier Schefer (Paris). Ze Dos Bois is currently presenting the exhibition Transitioners, a project by the Paris-based artistic cooperative, Societe Realiste. Transitioners is a trend design agency specialized in political transitions. Transposing the principles of prospective design, generally used by "fashion trend agencies", to the field of politics, Societe Realiste questions the revolution (transition?) as a central category for the contemporary western society. Transitioners surveys the mutations of the revolution as a form. How a "democratic transition" can be produced? What is the role of design in the permanent conversion of politics into mythology? How the effect of an event on people can be transformed into a controlled affect? On the occasion of the exhibition's finissage, Ze Dos Bois and Societe Realiste presents a conferences and debates program, entitled "Discussões a propósito de política e design". ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 2007, 7pm. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ i/ INTRODUCTION. By Societe Realiste Société Réaliste will introduce the participants of these discussions and reformulate some key points of the Transitioners project, from its genesis to its main aesthetical and political perspectives. Some topics to be discuss during the two-days conference will be synthetized, from the problematics of an artistic science to an experimental approach of design, from the necessity of understanding the main integration strategies of Late Capitalism politics to some linkage between different chapters of the recent history of political revolutions. ii/ GREY WEATHER AT LA GRANDE JATTE : SEURAT VERSUS DUCHAMP. By Eric Alliez (In French) « The most important scientific mind of the 19th century, more than Cezanne, was Seurat, that died at the age of 32." This specific affinity felt by Duchamp for Seurat will be the center of this presentation. Another important question will be the Seurat's contradictory heritage, especially in the confrontation between Matisse and Duchamp. In Modern art, there is this point that is not related to pictural Modernism but on the contrary, through forces and forms, to an archeology of the contemporary, of which Matisse and Duchamp are precisely the two fundamental paradigms. Eric Alliez is a philosopher, professor at Middlesex University, London, since 2004. Scientific director and editor of the complete works of Gabriel Tarde (Empêcheurs de penser en rond/Le Seuil, Paris) and Gilles Deleuze, Immanence et vie (with Danielle Cohen-Levinas, Françoise Proust, Lucien Vinciguerra, PUF, Paris, 2006), creator and co-editor of the review Multitudes. His most recent books are La Pensée-Matisse (with Jean-Claude Bonne, Le Passage, Paris, 2005) and L'Œil-Cerveau (with Jean-Clet Martin, Vrin, Paris, 2007). iii/ THE COMMUNIST INVENTION OF THE REVOLUTIONARY MILITANT. By Jose Neves The representation of the communist militant is the result of a one century-long creative work. In Portugal, this process has been accentuated in the end of the 30s and has been strengthen by the recognition of PCP, at the beginning of the 40s. This communication strategy has been the occasion of melting various sensibilities that formed the communist idea of the revolution. While analyzing the discourses of communist intellectuals - and more particularly historians' ones - we will see how two main understanding, the vanguard one and the common one, have created a productive tension, now possible to encounter in the writings of authors like Toni Negri and John Holloway. José Neves is an historian. Currently finishing a thesis about Communism and Nationalism in 20th Century Portugal at ISCTE, he has recently coordinated the collective book Da Gaveta para Fora - Ensaios sobre Marxistas (Afrontamento, 2006). iv/ MYTHOLOGY AND INSTRUMENTALIZATIONS OF THE ROMANIAN REVOLUTION. By Cosmin Costinas The autumn of 1989 was the spectacular moment needed by the already unleashed liberal machine to proclaim a grand finale before entering the age of unshattered expansion and disbelief in any possibility of social change. The almost ritualistic and choreographed nature of that autumn was nowhere more striking than in the case of the Romanian revolution. The radical proclamation of the end of a political construction employed both a highly symbolic scenario of "the revolution" haunting the modern European imagery (with the occupation of the public space, where the public space is understood as streets and central squares, the storming of a palace climaxing in a regicide), as well as a scenario of a media-generated reality. The act of the king leaving his palace was doubled by an equally significant moment, that of a contested and confused Ceausescu at the balcony of his palace, failing to grasp the codes of the "live history", exposing himself as the product of a pre-media regime of reality and allowing a media story to take over. But the dozens of hours of tape that constitute the Romanian revolution have also acquired an uncanny status of a founding mythology, random gestures and spontaneous phrases becoming projected as the ultimate references for the Romanian second republic. Cosmin Costinas is a writer and freelance curator, external editor of the reviews Idea Arts + Society e Version, and consultant for visual arts at the Romanian state television. His most recent projects include Textground (Prague, 2004) and Laicitate dupa Complicitate (Bucharest, 2005). He is currently working on a book about Romanian contemporary art of the 21st century (with Mihnea Mircan) and he is part of the editorial team of the Documenta 12 Magazines project in Kassel. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 21, 2007, 7pm. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ v/ FROM SERBIA TO KYRGYZSTAN, COLOR REVOLUTIONS AND REBELION IN A NEW CENTURY. By Vicken Cheterian "Color Revolutions" raised a strong hope. They turned out to be a deception. All of them had their specific history, their own biographies. The youth went to protest for different reasons, to reach distinct objectives. What did the youth in Serbia want in 2000? In 2003 Georgia? In 2004 Ukraine and in 2005 Kyrgyzstan? What did "they" promit them? After some years, are these countries more democratic? Were they the beginning or the end of non-violent pro-democratic westernized revolutions? Are the jihadists the revolutionaries of the 21st century? Is the revolution a solution for the problems of our societies, in the East, in the West? Vicken Cheterian is a journalist, specialized in international politics. Born in Lebanon, he has covered conflicts in the Middle East, then in Caucasus and Central Asia. Currently living in Geneva, he is working for Cimera, a non-for-profit organization, and he is a frequent collaborator of Le Monde Diplomatique, Paris. vi/ ART AND REVOLUTION: ZIGZAGS INTO COLOURS. By Olivier Schefer We'll try to see how and why color seems to be the very expression of the artistic revolution of the modernism. This lecture will endeavor also to reflect on the self-construction of the modernism, which creates its own mythology through colors. Following aspects will be studied : the quest of autonomy, the spiritual dimension of colors, the exhibition as artwork. Olivier Schefer is professor of aesthetic, philosophy and fine art at the University of Paris I Sorbonne. He works on the romantic period and its modern influences. Latest pulications : Anish Kapoor catalog's (Svayambh, éditions Fage, Paris, 2007), Les corps du retour (Zombies), in Fresh Theorie (éd. Léo Scheer, Paris, 2006), Résonances du romantisme (éd. La Lettre volée, Bruxelles, 2005). vii/ SUMMING UP: ATTEMPT OF A FRAGMENTARY HAGIOGRAPHY. By Societe Realiste To conclude the two-days public discussion, Societe Realiste will try to summarize some of the main points debated between the participants, by linking modernist stakes of the colour (Alliez, Schefer), examples of political transitions (Cheterian, Costinas, Neves) and the core problematics of the Transitioners project. Then, Societe Realiste will open the conversation on a critical hagiography of some stakes of the Revolution Mythology by using several examples such as the ones of Saint Thomas More or Olinde Rodrigues. Societe Realiste is a Paris-based artistic cooperative created by Ferenc Grof and Jean-Baptiste Naudy, that manages the development of several research and economical structures such as a laboratory for the study of urban signs (IGM), an immigration agency (EU Green Card Lottery), a trend design bureau specialized in political transitions (Transitioners), an administration dedicated to the politics of the space (Ministere de l'Architecture), a legislative consulting firm, expert in competitive and sustainable lawmaking (Cabinet Societe Realiste Conseil), a counter-biennial (Manifesta 6.1), a company designing marketing models for the contemporary art field (PONZI'S), or a collective finance fund for individual projects (OTC). ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ More info: www.zedosbois.org / zdb at zedosbois.org With the support of Instituto Franco-Português; Chama Vermelha; Instituto das Artes. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ SOCIETE REALISTE ---------------- Ferenc Gróf / Jean-Baptiste Naudy intelligence at societerealiste.net http://www.societerealiste.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 23:38:44 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:38:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sindh's Stolen Brides Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709181108p13e50fa5m57e606c230a0e853@mail.gmail.com> Sindh's Stolen Brides On the other side of the Thar, Hindus, especially girls, are forced into Islam by Mariana Baabar http://www.outlookindia.com/ 16 January, 2006 Hindus In Pakistan Hindus constitute about 2.5 per cent, or 26 lakh, of Pakistan's population. Though sprinkled all over Pakistan, 95 per cent of Hindus are in Sindh. Only Tharparkar district in Sindh has Hindus in majority: 51 per cent. Other districts with sizeable population: Mirpur Khas (41 per cent), Sanghar (35 per cent), Umerkot (43 per cent) Nearly 82 per cent of Pakistani Hindus are lower caste, most of them farm labourers Cities with some Hindu population: Karachi, Hyderabad, Jacobabad, Lahore, Peshawar and Quetta. In Tharparkar, Hindus own land. Krishen Bheel, Gyan Chand and Ramesh Lal are the Hindus in the Pakistan National Assembly. *** Let me confess at the outset: I'm travelling in interior Sindh to verify specifically the reported widespread menace of abduction of Hindu girls, their forcible conversion to Islam and betrothal to Muslim men. My first port of call is the district court of Mirpur Khas. I promptly mingle among the crowd waiting for the court's decision on a kidnap-and-conversion case. Different voices narrate contradictory stories. I am befuddled for the moment. Soon, a frisson of excitement sweeps through the throng, as a police van drives through the gate. Inside it is Mariam. She's 13 years old-and married! Mariam was Mashu, and Hindu, till the night of December 22, 2005. I pick my way through the jostling crowd. Mariam is in a red burqa, her gold nose ring sparkles. She tells me, "I'm happy. I don't want to return to my parents or brother." What's the fuss about, I wonder. It's quite another story under the pipal tree of the court compound. Huddled under it are the villagers of Jhaluree, 20 km from Mirpur Khas. Among them is Mashu's father, Malo Sanafravo. He says that at 11 pm, December 22, four armed men barged into their room. One of them was Malo's neighbour, Akbar. They picked up Mashu, bundled her into the waiting car. "She was taken to Pir Ayub Jan Sarhandi's village in Somarho tehsil." There Mashu became Mariam and was married to Akbar. Not true, insists husband Akbar. "Mariam has been always in my heart," he gushes, saying, at 11 pm, December 22, it was she who had come over to his house. But it's true that the Pir converted her and married them-it was his idea that they issue statements in the court. "Mariam was sent to Darul Aman in Hyderabad, in judicial custody," Akbar declares. A 13-year-old choosing to convert and marry? A 13-year-old testifying in the court, without her family by her side? Suspicious, I walk over to the SHO, caught in the middle of a heated exchange between two groups. Someone suggests he should allow the girl to meet her relatives. Before the conversion yes, not now. She has now become Muslim, says the SHO. He argues, "There's a huge crowd here. If Mariam breaks down after seeing her father, there will be a communal riot here in the compound." A little later, there are celebrations as the word spreads: the court has allowed the couple to live together. Standing next to me is Kanjee Rano Bheel. He works for an NGO in the education sector; volunteers for the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) as well. "In just two hours Mashu was converted and married," Kanjee says incredulously. Disappointment and helpless rage fleet across his face. "In Darul Aman the girls are kept away from parents and pressured into issuing statements favourable to the abductors. They tame stubborn girls through death threats." So, was Mashu abducted and forcibly converted? In Mirpur Khas, truth resembles the mirage of the surrounding Thar desert, teasing and tormenting me as I drive from Karachi into interior Sindh. It tests your credulity, it challenges your journalistic skills. Wherever I go, and whoever I meet, in disconsolate voices the Hindus talk about 'missing girls'; their stories resemble Mashu's-the theme of abduction, conversion, often followed by marriage, is common to most narrations. The girls then appear in courts to issue statements declaring their conversion was voluntary. All links to the natal family and the community are severed; they are lost to the family forever. On January 4, 2005, Marvi, 18, and Hemi, 16, were kidnapped from Kunri village in Umerkot district; three months later, on March 3, 14-year-old Raji was abducted from Aslam Town Jhuddo, Mirpur Khas. So, was Mashu abducted and converted? In Mirpur Khas, the truth is like the mirage of the Thar desert. The script in their cases was similar to Mashu's. "Only 10 per cent of all conversions involving girls are voluntary; because of romance," says Kanjee. Ten per cent of what? No official figures are available. The DIG in Mirpur Khas, Saleemullah, says, "If there's need I'll collect these figures. Minorities are the safest in Pakistan." Members of the Hindu Bheel community show photos of girls who they say have been kidnapped and converted Saleemullah, perhaps, should tap the HRCP for statistics. Its director in Lahore, I.A. Rehman, is an honourable man. Rehman told Outlook that the HRCP has, between Jan 2000 to Dec 2005, documented 50 cases involving conversion of Hindu girls to Islam. Its investigations too endorse what I had found in interior Sindh. In many cases where it was claimed the girls had eloped with their Muslim partners, the HRCP found that most were, in fact, abducted, forcibly married to Muslim men or sold to them. There have been cases of Hindu girls, usually from economically better off families, eloping with their Muslim boyfriends. Rehman says in most cases "These Hindu women are mistreated, their husbands do nothing but see TV," says the Pir. such marriages didn't last long. With links to their families cut off, the girls were subsequently forced to marry another Muslim or sucked into marriage rackets. Nuzzhat Shirin, who works for the Lahore-based ngp Aurat Foundation, understands why the girls don't reveal their plight at the time they are presented in court. "When a Hindu is forced to become Muslim, such a ruckus is made that if the young kidnapped girl appears in court, the fanatics yell, scream, throw rose petals in the air and follow the youth into the building so that she's intimidated and can't speak," Shirin explains. Social stigma arising from the loss of virginity, and the consequent difficulty of finding a groom, prompt these women to accept their misfortune-and hope for the best. Fifty incidents in five years represents just a percentage of the total number of cases, says Kanjee, pointing out that a majority of such crimes go unreported. "There have been 50 such incidents last year," insists Krishen Bheel, who is a Hindu member of the National Assembly (MNA), the Pakistani equivalent of the Lok Sabha. He begins to rattle out the cases he remembers: two months back Sapna was kidnapped and converted in upper Sindh; seven months earlier it was 17-year-old Lakshmi in Nawkot, and then.... "The trend is increasing," he says. "If these conversions are voluntary, then how come boys rarely ever convert?" Hindu women in Somarho who have been converted to Islam by Pir Ayub Jan Sirhandi Only once did the popular resentment against abduction spill out in the streets of Mirpur Khas. It was in the '80s: a girl named Sita had been kidnapped. Some 70,000 Hindus turned up to protest the kidnapping. The police opened fire, killing several. "Sita was never returned," Krishen laments. "She had even told Justice Dhorab Patel, who later joined the HRCP, that she had been forcibly converted. We have now stopped agitating." Instead, the Hindus take the support of civil rights groups and the media to publicise abduction cases, hoping public scrutiny would goad the state into action. On Dec 30, the day after the Mariam case was disposed, the Supreme Court took cognisance of the complaint Qosheela's parents from Ghotki, Sindh, had filed. They claimed their 13-year-old girl had been kidnapped, converted, given the name of Hajra and married to a Muslim man. The girl, as in most other cases, had said she had converted of her own free will. A three-member bench, headed by Chief Justice Iftiqar Muhammad Chaudhry, ordered the medical examination of the girl to determine whether she had attained puberty (Islam permits marriage at that age). "A majority of such abductions and conversions go unreported," says Kanjee Bheel, of the HRCP. Should it be proved otherwise, the husband could be tried for rape. Even cities are not immune to the menace. Last year, Sammo Amra and Champa in Karachi received a letter from their three missing daughters-Reena (21), Reema (17) and Usha (19)-informing that they had converted to Islam and were ordained under the dictates of their new religion not to live with infidels, including their Hindu parents. The letter bore the address of Madrassa Taleemul Islam, Karachi. It prompted Supreme Court Bar Association president Malik Mohammad Qayyum to petition the Supreme Court in the first week of December. He accused the religious seminary's administrator of using coercive methods to convert the three girls. On December 16, the court ordered the police to shift the girls to the Edhi Welfare Centre and provide protection to them until the time it was ascertained they had been indeed compelled to convert to Islam. Sensitive Muslim citizens feel the way to counter the menace is to reinterpret and widen the scope of law. Major (retd) Kamran Shafi, an absentee landlord from Sindh, cites the case of 17-year-old Kochlia, who was kidnapped and gangraped in Jacobabad, Sindh, in Sept 2005. Four men were arrested for the crime. They were subsequently released because Kochlia stated in the court she had converted and was married Rehana was earlier Nabee. She converted three years ago after her husband died. to one of them. Shafi asks, "Isn't something very, very wrong here? Suppose the poor girl was forced into changing her religion and marrying one of the assailants so that they get off the hook? Can't the state prosecute the four on its own, for their original crime of rape?" The three Hindu MNAs-Krishen Bheel, Gyan Chand and Ramesh Lal-raised the Kochlia case in the National Assembly. They claimed Kochlia's statement was not tenable as under the local Hindu custom and law a girl can't marry of her own will until the age of 20. Since Kochlia is a minor, her abductors should be tried for rape. Such an interpretation of existing laws could provide ample relief to Hindus. Till then, though, the fear of kidnap stalks the Hindus of Pakistan. Krishen Bheel says Hindu girls are scared to go out; he has enrolled his own children into a Christian school. He points to Mirpur Khas' strange predicament: there's freedom to worship, there are 10 temples which bustle through the day with devotees; and yet Hindu girls here are kidnapped and converted-and the community humiliated. Perhaps these abductions are part of the general scenario of crime against women in rural Pakistan (see box). Perhaps they are converted and married to criminals to enable the latter to escape the dragnet of the law. Yet, such arguments don't comfort the Hindus. Sat Ram, of Shadi Bali village near Mirpur Khas, says Hindu girls are deprived of education because their parents are apprehensive of sending them to schools located at a distance. "They receive education only till the primary level. It isn't safe to send them to school after that." But the plight of Hindu women can't be seen just through the prism of gender discrimination rampant in rural Sindh. Reena Gul, of Sattar Nagar village, Mirpur Khas, says the boys too are converted but their numbers are very few. The community here feels it is the Islamist's agenda to drive out non-Muslims from Pakistan. In fact, Krishen told the National Assembly that even Hindu businessmen are being kidnapped in Sindh for ransom. He said on the floor of the House, "Several religious parties are reportedly behind the move to convince the people that it is their responsibility to get rid of infidels from Pakistan, (that) taking ransom from non-Muslims is not a sin." I now set out to meet Pir Ayub Jan Sarhandi, whose name surfaces repeatedly in conversion stories. Ruksana was Chotee. Poverty and a drug abuser husband made her convert to Islam. The drive from Mirpur Khas to Sarhandi village, Somarho tehsil, is through a picturesque landscape. Peacocks dance in the field and gypsies pitch their tents for the night. Even the Pir appears tranquil, his white flowing beard and winsome disposition camouflaging his mission. Yet, when he begins to talk, he conceals nothing. Yes, the Pir declares, he has been converting the Hindus for the last 30 years. Perhaps his claims of converting a 1,000 families a year is a boast. "There's a surah in the Quran which speaks specifically about conversion, especially about conversion of women," he says to justify his mission. "Recently, three Hindu girls were brought to me. I named them Benazir, Sanam and Nusrat," he reveals, with the righteous air of someone who had bestowed a favour. "These Hindu women are mistreated by their husbands who do nothing but watch TV." The Pir rubbishes the allegation that he converts abducted Hindu girls. The unwilling are sent back. Yet, he adds in the same breath, "In many cases Hindu girls are kidnapped and kept as keeps. But these keeps are not converted. But believe me, they are very happy." I express the desire to meet the women whom he had converted and found sanctuary with him. The Pir agrees, even allows us to photograph them, contrary to the local tradition. Into the room, the women walk. Rehana, 50, was earlier Nabee; she converted three years ago, after the death of her husband. "I had no one to turn to. If we do not convert we would not be helped by this family." It was the same reason for 35-year-old Mariam, who came here seven years back. "Under the Pir's protection, I earn at least Rs 200 a month." Ruksana was earlier Chotee, and hails from Umerkot. Extreme poverty and a drug-addict husband persuaded her to take the extreme step. "I brought my four kids as well," she declares. As I talk to these women, I realise most of them are widows or wallowing in poverty. I mention this to the Pir. He says, "The government is responsible for all Hindus and non-Hindus. When the government doesn't help them, they come to us." Forced or economically enticed, the Hindu converts do not symbolise Islam's appeal. Rather they represent the state's failure to provide succour to the poor and protect their religious rights. Perhaps it's also symptomatic of the sickness afflicting the Pakistani state. As they say, the condition of the minorities is an indicator of a nation's health. By Mariana Baabar in interior Sindh with Amir Mir in Lahore From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Sep 18 23:46:04 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:46:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Persistence of Partition: The Sindhis in India Message-ID: <9c06aab30709181116k651afe2dq3ce83827bc96636b@mail.gmail.com> Partition Lecture Series Continuing with our year-long programme of lectures, dialogues, and readings from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh under the Partition Lecture Series, Zubaan, the Heinrich Boll Foundation, Max Mueller Bhavan, and the India Habitat Centre have invited Dr Rita Kothari, Associate Professor, Mudra Institute of Communications, Ahmedabad, to present a lecture on "The Persistence of Partition: The Sindhis in India" on September 20, at 6:30 pm, Gulmohar, India Habitat Centre Sixty years, and two generations after Partition, it is worth asking if as a historical event, or metaphor, Partition persists in the lives of the Sindhis. Is Partition a shared referential trope for the translocal Sindhi who does business in three continents, or the one who lives in an urban Indian city and runs a cloth shop, or the one who continues to live in what-were-once refugee camps, and waits for more gentrified (and therefore non-Sindhi) location? Kothari's work on the Partition experience and resettlement of the Sindhis defies some of the oft-made generalizations about Partition. The focus shifts from the history to sociology of Partition, from the day of departure to the trauma of arrival, from collective memory to collective forgetting. The narrative is not plotted in terms of adversaries/friends from different religions, because the 'other' is absent from oral testimonies of the Sindhis. The 'others' had to be created, and believed as part of citizenship in the new nation-state, and boundaries of religion and culture had to be redrawn for membership in majoritarian circles. The narrative of the Sindhis is shot through with irony: they emerge as winners by having escaped brutal violence, by rising spectacularly well out of the ashes of Partition and by putting behind the memory of pre-Partition lives. And yet, as Kothari illustrates through Gujarat, they paid some of the heaviest prices, and made losses which remain unacknowledged by everyone, including the Sindhis themselves. No passes or invitations are required for attending the event. From zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl Tue Sep 18 10:49:39 2007 From: zainab at mail.xtdnet.nl (zainab) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 07:19:39 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709172111y367e4710g2c8da190d024fe5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709172111y367e4710g2c8da190d024fe5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan, I find this statement of yours " P.S : I always had a soft corner for Bong females and More so when they > speak in Bangla , which i find the sweetest language to hear." a little out of context. What is the point of making a statement like this on a public list? And what does this statement mean in any case? Somehow, I find it quite offensive as a female, I cannot speak for Gargi. I think now I understand what Monica was attempting to say in her 'unsubscribe' email. I hope that all of us, including myself, can maintain some dignity and decorum on this public list. Best, Zainab On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:41:55 +0530, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Dear Gargi Sen Ji , > > NamaskAr > > I am sorry I lost you somewhere . My fault . Also I admit that I do not > know > much about Lord garg as well. Maybe you can tell me about it offline. > > I was under the impression that Shuddha was also a female , though I never > had an idea about you either. > > Regards > Pawan > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From abhikauliya at googlemail.com Tue Sep 18 05:14:53 2007 From: abhikauliya at googlemail.com (Abhik Samanta) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 05:14:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] sixth post Message-ID: <83253d810709171644x3334b7caj731ae66acef30fa6@mail.gmail.com> The figure of the Swami can be seen as a phenomenon from the latter half of the 19th century onwards which is contemporaneous with the rise of middle class politics of representation. The Swami or master can be seen as a master of work whose sociological domain is composed of the middle class employed in various regimes of colonial knowledge labour. Swami Dayanand Saraswati and Swami Vivekananda are prominent examples who had widespread following among the education based middle class in two disparate regions. In understanding nationalism as part of the exercise of hegemony the strategy of the presentation of work as transcending the separated regions of the mind and the body brings out a crucial ambivalence which is historical. The domain of work as is evident from Swami Ramtirth's descriptions from points 18- 28 seeks to overcome the contradictions between the mental and physical signifiers of labour. In doing do this the discourse located itself on the edge of politics as in claiming the overflow of engagements of work that went beyond the specified schedules of colonial worktime. It was apolitical in the sense that the colonial regime was not its overt direction of adressal. It was on the other hand a language of self development as progress which was closely reflected in the agenda of radical organization of the violent overthrow of colonial rule at the beginning of the 20th century. Public sphere engagements were also evident in the activities of the Arya Samaj of which the involvements and the eventual murder of Swami Shraddhanand are an example. As a member of an association that advocated the violent overthrow of British power Hanumanprasad's activism through the Gita Press which happened after his internment at Simlipal can be seen as a change characteristic of the way the regime of work enters mass politics particularly since the rise of Gandhi in the 1920s. The body of a Swami draped in saffron or any other colour of symbolic significance did not hold as much meaning in a sphere of public mobilization outside the elite as it did within. This is implicit in the way the national service is conceived in the example of Swami Ramtirth, to suggest the pre requisite of the engagement with the problem of nationhood as an institutional as well as individual crisis. The matter of choice that is a solution to this aporia relies heavily on the body of the man who gives the message. It is a physicality that has to be repeated every time the message is enacted. Hence the necessity felt of periodic gatherings around discourse or the recording and their dissemination as printed tracts. This form was a fetish with elite terrorist societies members of which sought the man who would endow them with a secret prowess. This sort of work for the nationalist cause was essentially of a demonstrative nature seeking to reveal the intimate connection of the national with violence and death. Just as the body of the martyr was a resounding success in terms of the demonstration of the reality of nationalism it also showed the isolation of the knowledge of the national and its appurtenant ethics of a universal time. The notion that I offer here is that work associated with nationalism was no longer conceived in the teleology of the fruits of its enactment. The time of the nation in which the body of the Swami holds sway over a process becomes irrelevant in the need for a more demonstrative existence where the fruits of national work are conceived in political terms. Hegemony of the elite in the context of connecting discontents in colonial rule becomes necessary as an explicit part of mobilization. The metaphors of this form of work is discernable in the practice of weaving on the charkha widely popularized by Gandhi. The act of weaving was an act which brought the nation into being by its very demonstration as an act. In this sense it was not premised on its ends as Gandhi used it to unify his public, when he would sit on a public platform and weave, and private time, when he would sit alone and weave. The relationship of time with work thus changed with immense implications for the nature of the time in which the nation was conceived. The work on the charkha had its origin in the aim to offset the consumption of industry made cloth including in its fold the Gandhian critique of machinery but since it was configured as a demonstration through which it became political its significance in the teleology of nationalism was altered. The nation now embodied a demonstrative form of action which constituted a different body of time in which work was conceived. In order to understand the changed nature of work or seva that emerged as the expression of nationalism it is important to understand the relationship of work with time. Taking the metaphors used by Marx some interesting light can be thrown on the nature of the effort that went into the making of the commodities produced by the Gita Press. To do a cursory exploration of Marx's depiction of the relationship of labour and time I use a text called Marginal notes to the programme of the German labour party. The notion of the margin is a strategy to depict a time of reading whereby the margin becomes the central issue of orientation of the programme. The existence of the programme is the agency which allows Marx's observations to have a value in replication and thus constitute a knowledge. At the same time when knowledge is a moment when the reader enters into the landscape of movement it is also revealed as the ersatz of the bourgeois order of time which is the cause of the enslavement of labour. The effect of this duality is to engender a sense of programme that is constituted by an awareness of time itself , hence an agenda to disseminate a sense of time. [This is the law of all history hitherto. What, therefore, had to be done here, instead of setting down general phases about 'labour' and 'society', was to prove concretely how in present capitalist society the material, etc, conditions have at last been created which enable and compel workers to lift this social curse.] The sense of history of class struggle is thus outside the agenda of a workers programme which at the same time is described in terms of a compelling sense of time. This is achieved with the use of the sense of time signified by the word hitherto. The location in which history lies on the outside of the real workers programme is contiguous with the revelation of a disguise. The Lassalean programme which Marx critiques is entrapped in this disguise of time whose manifestations subsume any form of the conception of labour itself. This is because labour was conceived overwhelmingly as a means of exchange which was the way it had to be in order to fit the bourgeois time order. Thereby the whole bourgeois conception of wages hitherto, as well as all the criticism hitherto directed against this conception, was thrown overboard once and for all and it was made clear that the wage worker has permission to work for his own subsistence, that is to live, only in so far as he works for a certain time gratis for the capitalist ( and hence also for the latters co consumers in surplus value); that the whole capitalist system of production turns on the increase of this gratis labour by extending the working day or by developing the productivity, that is increasing the productivity of labour power etc; that consequently, the system of wage labour is a system of slavery, and indeed of a slavery which becomes more severe in proportion as the social productive forces of labour develop, whether the worker receives better or worse payment. From chiarapassa at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 16:11:34 2007 From: chiarapassa at gmail.com (Chiara Passa) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:41:34 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] REBUS ON DIGITAL ART In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.ideasonair.net/2007/09/45-idea.html -- Chiara Passa chiarapassa at gmail.com http://www.chiarapassa.it http://www.ideasonair.ne http://twitter.com/jogador From monica.mody at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 23:16:16 2007 From: monica.mody at gmail.com (Monica Mody) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:16:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_Open_Baithak_a?= =?windows-1252?q?t_Queen=92s_Gallery=2C_British_Council_Delhi=2C_F?= =?windows-1252?q?riday_Sep_28?= In-Reply-To: <4badad3b0709181045u14a467d5u6105bb169b8ff178@mail.gmail.com> References: <4badad3b0709161248o6e083561l6be6dd02c8b09290@mail.gmail.com> <4badad3b0709181045u14a467d5u6105bb169b8ff178@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4badad3b0709181046le5b31e3g1067c6a5ba024a49@mail.gmail.com> *"Open Baithak " Performance in Poetry & Art Series * *Location: *The Queen's Gallery, British Council, 17 Kasturba Gandhi Marg, New Delhi *Time:* 6.30-9 pm, Aug 28, 2007 Friday When MtvU selected John Ashbery as its first poet laureate, airing video excerpts from his poems on its channel and making them available for download on its website, we cheered the news. Ashbery's poems could now appeal to a larger (younger!) audience. And in such a cool way! Poems + TV + Web = Performance. Make your own performance equation at Open Baithak . Perform the word, or just perform. Sign up starts at 6.30pm. Open reading/performance start at 7pm. Each poet/performer gets 5 mins on the stage and is expected to bring in new work every time -- and also to delight the audience by doing risky and innovative things with it. You can read/perform in *any language*. Wheelchair accessible. *Baithak Theme: Love, Lies, Forgetting* Please contact Monica Mody in advance if you have tech needs/questions, or for more info: openbaithak at gmail.com *Special Feature: Video Shorts by Shakti Bhatt (1980-2007) * * * *About Open Baithak:* A new monthly poetry in performance series in Delhi, Open Baithak offers a space for poets to think about new and innovative ways of presenting poetry to audiences, and a test platform for emerging poet performers. It makes a regular meeting place for poets from different linguistic, written and oral traditions. It is also a meeting place for listeners and readers of poetry. It hopes to be a place and a space where together we can make poetry better than the movies. Open Baithak also welcomes artists experimenting with performance as a medium of artistic expression, including performances that draw on literature, visual arts, music, dance, film, technological media, or what have you. *History:* Earlier this year, the British Council Delhi had organized a Spoken Word Series featuring performances and workshops by and Indian poets such as Anjum Hasan, Jeet Thayil, John Hegley, Lemn Sissay, Patience Agbabi and Vivek Narayanan. This culminated in an open mic evening at Sarai, where those of us present felt the necessity for more such spaces, which give an opportunity to poet performers to explore how performance and poetry can be brought together, spaces where words can come alive on the stage through ways and means ranging from music to rhythm to dance and beyond. The first Open Baithak was held at The Attic on May 18 and the second on Aug 23. *Our Sponsor:* We are immensely grateful to the British Council Delhi for giving us the encouragement and financial support to get the series up and running. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mitoo at sarai.net Tue Sep 18 12:02:33 2007 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:02:33 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Nigah and Sarai presents Susana Cook Message-ID: <1145.59.176.103.149.1190097153.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> Nigah and Sarai present "The Unpatriotic Act - Homeland Insecurities", a fun political satire by Susana Cook, on Saturday, Sept 22nd, 6:30pm at Sarai (29, Rajpur Road, Delhi 110054) An icon of the lesbian underground, Susana Cook is an Argentinean-born, New York-based perfomer, director, and playwright who works in political theatre. She has presented original, award-winning works like Dykenstein, 100 Years of Attitude, and the Values Horror Show in multiple international venues. For her debut in India, Susana presents The Unpatriotic Act - Homeland Insecurities, a powerful and poetic solo performance exploring the links between \sexuality, nationalism, and homophobia. For more, see www.susanacook.com . ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mitoo at sarai.net Tue Sep 18 12:07:34 2007 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:07:34 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Events @ I.P. College Message-ID: <2726.59.176.103.149.1190097454.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> Dear all, Indraprastha College for Women is organizing the following events over the next week. Please save the dates, and spread the word. 1) Wednesday, 19th September 2007, 1:30 pm Venue: The Common Room S. ANAND Journalist, Publisher and Social Activist will be speaking on Caste in/and the Indian Classroom ~~~ 2) 22nd September 2007, 12:30 pm Venue: The Seminar Room Mahmood Farooqui and Danish Hussain will present Ek Dastaan Bhari Dopahar Everyone is welcome. ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From debjanisgupta at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 10:12:59 2007 From: debjanisgupta at yahoo.com (debjani sengupta) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? Message-ID: <144788.40543.qm@web54404.mail.yahoo.com> A few days ago the poet Tarapada Roy (b 1936) died in Kolkata. Curiously for the past week even before I heard the news, I have been reading his autobiography 'Tarapadababu Kothay Jachchen? (Where are you going, Tarapadababu?) describing his first twenty odd years as a young boy in Tangail, (now in Bangladesh) and then his sojourn in Calcutta from 1951. Tarapada Roy was a poet, a very good one although he was very modest about the epithet. He often said that when he saw an envelop marked in his name with the words, 'the poet' he felt a deep thrill. He was also a wonderful short story writer, many of them satires or plain 'hasyarasatyak' in the vein of Shibram Chakraborty or Syed Mujtaba Ali.But to me Tarapada Roy was also something else. He was the author of some of the most poignant poetry and stories on the Partition of India that he had witnessed when he was just ten. In a story called 'Joe' he talks of a horse that he and his brother had looked after and that he had to abandon when they left East Bengal for ever. And in a short poem written in 1967 the poet describes his first view of the city where he comes to live: Do you remember, Kolkata That green passport, my dark green shirt; Arriving, drenched, at Sealdah Main That day on the train from the border I saw a shoeshine boy for the first time in my life. It was a thrill, my dream city, My first tram-car, my earliest first-class, First class Kolkata, Where pet clouds hover over every roof. Within every window A mystery of darkness and light. My green shirt, my ragged shoes, Fear in every step. Madmen with beggars, beggars with drunks, Processions, rainbow hued, horizon stretching. The crowded teashops, the futile mob on the road. On windy afternoons dry leaves scatter, In the sunlight, tram tracks glisten Pale as ivory, Reaching nowhere. Sometimes I feel, I am no longer within your limits, Nowhere can I find that city of mine Where, between two lamp-posts, in a long penalty kick Someone sends the football moon to space While shadowy figures in the gallery yell,’ Goal, goal.’ These twenty years, I have found nothing in common with you, Kolkata. My torn dreams, my ragged pieces of poetry In dirty paper bags the tramps Have collected them all. Those dream-words Have been sold like rubbish. Not a single mystery window opened anywhere Nowhere could I reach the clouds on the roofs. Only the color of my shirt, My shoe size changed, Needlessly. (That Green Passport: Tarapada Roy) It was also curious that two days ago I heard Etienne Balibar speak on citizenship that he locates within the fundamental right of circulation. Balibar stressed how the notions of a 'citizen' was being transformed within the ontological paradoxes of globalization. In post national times, borders have become blurred, meaningless and ubiquitous populations have emerged who are truly citizens of the roads. They are citizens who are partially free from territoriality, a new class of transnational performers who are nomadic. I couldnt help but think of Roy's poem when I was listening to the exposition. Borders have a real presence in so many of our lives, more so when in our minds they dont exist at all. The underclass of refugees who came to West Bengal in the aftermath of the Partition had few political rights. Theirs was a right to live but that right was circumscribed by the politics of space.Tarapada Roy belonged to such a nomadic citizenship marked by belonging and not belonging. The question 'Kothay Jachchen Tarapadababu?' thus has a special resonance in my mind today; it is question that I catch myself asking often. Where are we off too? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 12:49:35 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 00:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Dear All In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <55354.79783.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Keeping in view of the Invaders and their tactics on India and its rulers, If people stop gossip about the NATION then it would be very helpful and nice. zainab wrote: Dear Pawan, I find this statement of yours " P.S : I always had a soft corner for Bong females and More so when they > speak in Bangla , which i find the sweetest language to hear." a little out of context. What is the point of making a statement like this on a public list? And what does this statement mean in any case? Somehow, I find it quite offensive as a female, I cannot speak for Gargi. I think now I understand what Monica was attempting to say in her 'unsubscribe' email. I hope that all of us, including myself, can maintain some dignity and decorum on this public list. Best, Zainab On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:41:55 +0530, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Dear Gargi Sen Ji , > > NamaskAr > > I am sorry I lost you somewhere . My fault . Also I admit that I do not > know > much about Lord garg as well. Maybe you can tell me about it offline. > > I was under the impression that Shuddha was also a female , though I never > had an idea about you either. > > Regards > Pawan > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 13:19:47 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 00:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] A Tribute to America (Suranganieta Malu Genawa) Message-ID: <714816.55286.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Predictable but delightfully so. A must-see. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =CnlMnf7t4t4 Kshmendra --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 14:05:21 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 01:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Reposting Link - A Tribute to America (Suranganieta Malu Genawa) In-Reply-To: <714816.55286.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <195051.35623.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Predictable but delightfully so. A must-see. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnlMnf7t4t4 Kshmendra --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. From bangali_mnb at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 16:13:17 2007 From: bangali_mnb at yahoo.com (bangali_ mnb) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:43:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709171647u54900387yad2a17d0f7c2d4a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <505621.98069.qm@web35708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The lack of consciousness to preserve the old world charm is a common thing in each and every Government and authorities, so nothing can be done if we people remain silent. kudo to Vishal, he is doing a great job. at least he made some of us conscious about the matter. Vishal Rawlley wrote: Dear all, Kabi had suggested: what about marathi, gujarati, hindi urdu newpapers. or getting some reporter on the local english/vernacular tv stations interested in doing a piece. It seems like a good idea to try the vernacular/ local media. For all the publicity Typocity got in the English press, it seems to have had very little effect. Does someone have a contact I can use? I am also thinking that a sticker campaign (a little mark pasted on the side of a sign) and a certification system wherein all heritage signs are recognised as such and marked accordingly, might help. All such signs would then be able to apply for funds for their upkeep or automatically go to the signage museum if it has to be dismantled. If old signs were to be regularly maintained, then the old sign makers would also find some employment. An 'Adopt a Sign' system could be used to raise funds for individual signs from patrons from the local community - or a wider community by auctioning the sign through its images on the internet. (Hmmm... I will have to become an NGO then! I find myself wishing for a signage fairy who flits about Bombay streets brightening up and restoring the old signs in the night) Any further suggestions? Best, v On 9/15/07, Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > Conversation thread started from> http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ > > Dear Shuddha, Aman, Kabi (and the additional people this is going out to) > > The Typocity project (documenting signage and typeface in Mumbai - > www.typocity.com) has been well publicised. It was featured in the Mid > Day, talked about in Time Out, DNA people know about it; it was also > featured in several art and design magazines. We also conducted a number of > presentations and workshops in collages and other forums. I have also > personally spoken to many shop and restaurant owners about preserving their > old signage (one restaurant owner even has a laminated printout of the > typocity website page featuring his restaurant proudly displayed at the > counter). > > Months of labour on the project over three years had left me exhausted. > But it is now time to revisit it and take stock. Change is inevitable and no > matter what you and me think, the individual proprietors will make their own > aesthetic choice and pragmatic decisions. So some signs went away and I > could only sigh. However what got my goti is when I rushed into the Eastern > Watch shop to scold and complain to the owner for changing the sign, only to > realise that it was the BMC that forced him into this. Another regret was > that I had never managed to get a picture of this landmark sign because of > sheer bad luck and this haunted me whenever I passed by and each time I > reminded myself to do it soon, and then I saw it gone. Damn! But luckily the > owner has a a photograph from 1920s (that is what he claims about the old > photo I had posted. See: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ and > www.easternwatch.in ) which shows the original signage. It would have been > wonderful to compare this with a recent photograph of the same sign and see > how immaculate it still was - in bright red colours. I noticed the sign's > disappearance after I returned from a long trip abroad. I wonder whether > there are others who noticed this disappearance. (The PUKAR ( > www.pukar.org.in) office and the Times of India office are both a stone's > throw away from Eastern Watch.) > > Another thing is that the recent corporate retail boom is speeding up the > demise of private businesses. Old shops are becoming franchises or revamping > themselves to look just like one. So along with the BMC's callousness, this > has given me the impetus to revisit the Typocity project. > > What I need help with is in connecting with some heritage lobbyists, or > better, a BMC officer who would listen. Could I use the RTI act in some way? > I am very inept at submitting forms, filing applications and drafting formal > letters. Government departments spook me out, but I can learn. And yes > additional campaigners will surely help. When you do see a good signage, > please tell the shop/ restaurant/ depot owner that what they have is > precious - this is a really effective approach. Please tell them that they > should never convert their bakery into a Foodland and do buy as many cakes > you can from them. (The lady at American Express bakery remembers me for > this. Printouts of ads from old newspapers about this 1930s institution are > proudly framed even in their new branch now.) Many owners already have an > attachment to the old world and all it needs is a young person to reaffirm > the charm and then they can get very protective about their heritage on > their own. > > In certain cities some nice attempts have been made to restore old signs. > In Chicago, for example, the new owners try to retain the old sign even if > it is not relevant to their business. A hip cafeteria will retain the sign > of the clock repair shop that they have now come to occupy, and even call > their cafe Clockworks Cafe. It is a crusade against indiscriminate > advertising. Can Foodland be perhaps made to see some sense? Can their sign > say Kayani Stores - and in small: a Foodland outlet. Couldn't it even be a > nice business model, as people like to buy food from an old and trusted > place. In Montreal some people are collecting old signs that have to be > taken off and are trying to create a museum for these. Funds for this are > collected, for now, from private donors and the storage space has been > obtained for free. > > So if you know advertising people from the agencies that are designing the > branding for Foodland and Spencer's and Farm Fresh please speak to them. If > you know gallery owners or industrialists with some vacant warehouse space, > please ask them if they could store some precious signs in there for a > while. If through signage reform we can create an awareness about a certain > ethos, then it might even impact architecture design and shop layout design > and city planning! A signage movement is easier to proceed with than > fighting the builders lobby. But if a certain ethos catches on then the > trend followers shall simply follow. > > Thanks for your ideas and suggestions so far. I look forward to all the > press support and any other inputs that can help this cause. I am not > leading this movement; it is as much anyone's cause as mine as long as they > feel the same way about signage and heritage and advertising etc. So do > write in. > > Thanks, > Vishal > > > p.s. Shuddha, I do know about www.dafont.com and we did make digital > typefaces out of some found fonts (a very tedious exercise, as not all > characters of the font-set are present in the found font.) Some enthusiastic > students from typography major in J J school of arts have shown a keen > interest in this area and anyone else who finds a typeface they like on the > Typocity website - without needing to scour the city - is free to make a > font out of it. This can be an on ongoing exercise. Some people want to > commercialise this whole venture - I am not very keen. My main interest > is in seeing the heritage signs where they belong rather than on my screen > or on a T-shirt.) > > > On 9/15/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vishal, > > > > Many thanks for your posting on disappearing signage. As an avowed fan > > of typographic curiosities I have long been an admirer of your efforts > > to document the typographic diversity of Bombay. > > > > I share your concern about the disappearance of signage, because of the > > ham handed ways in which 'heritage' is interpreted by municipal > > authorities. Perhaps one thing that could be done is a small travelling > > exhibition based on your work in colleges, and other arts institutions > > in Bombay. And with your documentation, it should not be impossible to > > convince some of the Bombay papers, say DNA or Mid Day, or even Time Out > > > > Mumbai to publish some articles on the subject. Then maybe, the > > 'heritage' lobby itself may be persuaded to step in and realize that the > > typographic history of Bombay is as much a part of 'heritage' as > > anything else. I am sure that there are some people from DNA and Mid Day > > on this list. > > > > Perhaps they could come out and take this forward. I thought I would > > post in reply to your post because typography is somthing that I feel > > really strongly about, > > > > I hope that other people come up with other suggestions, > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > Friends, > > > > > > In 2002 the Typocity project ( www.typocity.com) was initiated to > > document > > > typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of Bombay. Since then, > > many of > > > the old signs that we documented are slowly vanishing. However, I was > > most > > > distressed to find that some of this heritage is being destroyed by > > the > > > municipal corporation itself in the name of protecting and > > > restoring heritage structures. Nothing can be more absurd. > > > > > > Please follow this link to see the pictures of replaced signs and find > > out > > > more: http://bombay-arts.com/signs_gone/ Do excuse the quality of > > some of > > > the recent pictures as they were taken on the spur with a > > phone-camera. If > > > anyone has better pictures of the recently replaced Eastern Watch sign > > > > > please share it with me. > > > > > > I am desperately looking for suggestions and ideas to counter this > > lack of > > > sensitivity by the municipal corporation. I shall be very grateful for > > any > > > help. > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > Vishal > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 16:35:34 2007 From: sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:35:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46F1027E.1020407@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Vishal Rawlley wrote: > In 2002 the Typocity project (www.typocity.com) was initiated to document > typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of Bombay. As much as I like the concept (and plan to blog about it) the one jarring experience with the site was this ugly pop-up I got when using Firefox on Linux http://sankarshan.randomink.org/images/Screenshot-The%20page%20at%20http:--www.typocity.com%20says:.png Sad ... - -- You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw www.linkedin.com/in/sankarshan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG8QJ+XQZpNTcrCzMRAuhLAKCSPRf+LtHl+gU5rkeSJ1ZOpXHC2gCdE19U 3dBBxJRqsY81CNJXCeo/QiY= =6umt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 17:14:27 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:14:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Heritage Signage Disappearing In-Reply-To: <46F1027E.1020407@gmail.com> References: <31d5ea920709141643x6217afbby29515e1d910036e3@mail.gmail.com> <46F1027E.1020407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920709190444v31602a12oac4f3048f81bc7ba@mail.gmail.com> Yes Sankarshan, I do wish I did not have to put that apologetic message saying that the website is designed for IE only. I hope you shall excuse my limitation in not being able to design a website that is compatible with all browsers. However, if you or anyone else can help me overcome this problem, I shall be most grateful. best, vishal On 9/19/07, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Vishal Rawlley wrote: > > > In 2002 the Typocity project (www.typocity.com) was initiated to > document > > typefaces and signage styles in public spaces of Bombay. > > As much as I like the concept (and plan to blog about it) the one > jarring experience with the site was this ugly pop-up I got when using > Firefox on Linux > > > http://sankarshan.randomink.org/images/Screenshot-The%20page%20at%20http:--www.typocity.com%20says:.png > > Sad ... > > - -- > > You see things; and you say 'Why?'; > But I dream things that never were; > and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw > www.linkedin.com/in/sankarshan > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFG8QJ+XQZpNTcrCzMRAuhLAKCSPRf+LtHl+gU5rkeSJ1ZOpXHC2gCdE19U > 3dBBxJRqsY81CNJXCeo/QiY= > =6umt > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ish at sarai.net Wed Sep 19 18:13:42 2007 From: ish at sarai.net (ish at sarai.net) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:13:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 1857 Mutiny in the guardian Message-ID: <15e4f7c010575aafffb0b136213ba2ee@sarai.net> http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,,2155324,00.html From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 21:54:18 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Hello Message-ID: <168656.17820.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All, What happened? All of sudden big silence? Seems everybody become work holic at home/office/own business at both sides of the globe? Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. From ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Thu Sep 20 00:05:52 2007 From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Britta Ohm) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:35:52 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [Medianthro] Call for Papers: Exploring New Media Worlds Message-ID: <199fa5b701e0cb65d15ba5aaffb52cb3@zedat.fu-berlin.de> For those interested. Best -- Britta Anfang der weitergeleiteten E-Mail: > Von: "Rothenbuhler, Eric" > Datum: 19. September 2007 17:43:05 MESZ > An: > Betreff: [Medianthro] Call for Papers: Exploring New Media Worlds > > Greetings Friends, > > > > Here is the Call for Papers and Proposals for our conference, Exploring > New Media Worlds, to be held here at Texas A&M University (College > Station, Texas, US), February 29 to March 2, 2008. For your > convenience > I have both attached it and cut and pasted a copy below. > > > > I hope you will plan to participate. It should be a very interesting > conference and we will do our best to host you all for a lovely time. > Please send us a paper or proposal soon or at least before November 20. > > > > Please pass the Call on to any and all interested colleagues and > students. Please post it in a prominent place. Note that NCA has > provided funds for grants to aid graduate student travel; information > about how to apply is on our webpage. > > > > Please see the webpage at http://comm.tamu.edu/mediaworlds/ > > > > Questions or comments to me at Rothenbuhler at tamu.edu or the conference > email at mediaworlds at libarts.tamu.edu. > > > > Thank you much and see you soon. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Eric > > > > Eric W. Rothenbuhler > > Professor of Communication > > Texas A&M University > > > > > > > > Exploring New Media Worlds: > > > > Changing Technologies, Industries, Cultures, and Audiences > > in Global and Historical Context > > > > An international conference hosted by > > Texas A&M University, February 29 to March 2, 2008 > > > > Integrating fields of study in a time of change; setting a new agenda > for media studies. > > > > Papers and proposals are invited on any aspect of the conference > themes, > offering reports of new research, position-taking conceptual essays, > discussions of media and telecommunication policy, and both > international and historical comparisons on changing technologies, > industries, cultures, and audiences. > > > > The program will include keynote speakers, roundtable discussions, > thematic panels, prominent scholars as respondents, and time for > interaction. A wide selection of papers from the conference will be > published. Travel grants are available for student members of the > National Communication Association (see our webpage for more > information). > > > > Send papers or proposals (abstracts or annotated outlines) with a 50 > word professional biography by email attachment to > mediaworlds at libarts.tamu.edu. Panel proposals are also acceptable. > Deadline: November 20, 2007. > > > > For more information see http://comm.tamu.edu/mediaworlds > > email mediaworlds at libarts.tamu.edu or Rothenbuhler at tamu.edu. > > > > Keynote speakers: > > Larry Grossberg; Steve Jones; Vinny Mosco; and Ellen Seiter. > > > > Confirmed participants: > > Carole Blair, Sandra Braman, Celeste Condit, Bruce Gronbeck, Andrea > Press, Ronald Rice, Paddy Scannell, Joseph Turow, Angharad Valdivia. > > > > And the Texas A&M faculty: > > Patrick Burkart, Heidi Campbell, Antonio La Pastina, Srivi > Ramasubramanian, Eric Rothenbuhler, Michael Stephenson, Randy Sumpter, > and Ian Weber plus strong faculty groups in Rhetoric and Public > Affairs, > Health Communication, and Organizational Communication. > > > > The Exploring New Media Worlds conference is hosted and co-sponsored by > the Department of Communication, the College of Liberal Arts, the > Glasscock Center for Humanities Research, and the Program in > Presidential Rhetoric, Texas A&M University, with support from the > National Communication Association. > > > -------------- next part -------------- ****************************************** > > EASA Media Anthropology Network > http://www.media-anthropology.net > > For further information please contact: > Dr John Postill > Sheffield Hallam University, UK > jpostill at usa.net > > To manage your subscription to this mailing list, visit: > > http://lists.easaonline.org/listinfo.cgi/medianthro-easaonline.org > ___________________ Britta Ohm Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49/30/69507155 From swadhin_sen at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 00:13:42 2007 From: swadhin_sen at yahoo.com (Swadhin Sen) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? Message-ID: <773223.32841.qm@web52210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thank you, Debjani. The piece was illuminating as well as critical. Swadhin Sen Archaeologist & Assistant Professor Department of Archaeology Jahangirnagar University Savar, Dhaka Bangladesh Ph. 88 01720196176 (mobile) ----- Original Message ---- From: debjani sengupta To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:42:59 AM Subject: [Reader-list] tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? A few days ago the poet Tarapada Roy (b 1936) died in Kolkata. Curiously for the past week even before I heard the news, I have been reading his autobiography 'Tarapadababu Kothay Jachchen? (Where are you going, Tarapadababu?) describing his first twenty odd years as a young boy in Tangail, (now in Bangladesh) and then his sojourn in Calcutta from 1951. Tarapada Roy was a poet, a very good one although he was very modest about the epithet. He often said that when he saw an envelop marked in his name with the words, 'the poet' he felt a deep thrill. He was also a wonderful short story writer, many of them satires or plain 'hasyarasatyak' in the vein of Shibram Chakraborty or Syed Mujtaba Ali.But to me Tarapada Roy was also something else. He was the author of some of the most poignant poetry and stories on the Partition of India that he had witnessed when he was just ten. In a story called 'Joe' he talks of a horse that he and his brother had looked after and that he had to abandon when they left East Bengal for ever. And in a short poem written in 1967 the poet describes his first view of the city where he comes to live: Do you remember, Kolkata That green passport, my dark green shirt; Arriving, drenched, at Sealdah Main That day on the train from the border I saw a shoeshine boy for the first time in my life. It was a thrill, my dream city, My first tram-car, my earliest first-class, First class Kolkata, Where pet clouds hover over every roof. Within every window A mystery of darkness and light. My green shirt, my ragged shoes, Fear in every step. Madmen with beggars, beggars with drunks, Processions, rainbow hued, horizon stretching. The crowded teashops, the futile mob on the road. On windy afternoons dry leaves scatter, In the sunlight, tram tracks glisten Pale as ivory, Reaching nowhere. Sometimes I feel, I am no longer within your limits, Nowhere can I find that city of mine Where, between two lamp-posts, in a long penalty kick Someone sends the football moon to space While shadowy figures in the gallery yell, Goal, goal. These twenty years, I have found nothing in common with you, Kolkata. My torn dreams, my ragged pieces of poetry In dirty paper bags the tramps Have collected them all. Those dream-words Have been sold like rubbish. Not a single mystery window opened anywhere Nowhere could I reach the clouds on the roofs. Only the color of my shirt, My shoe size changed, Needlessly. (That Green Passport: Tarapada Roy) It was also curious that two days ago I heard Etienne Balibar speak on citizenship that he locates within the fundamental right of circulation. Balibar stressed how the notions of a 'citizen' was being transformed within the ontological paradoxes of globalization. In post national times, borders have become blurred, meaningless and ubiquitous populations have emerged who are truly citizens of the roads. They are citizens who are partially free from territoriality, a new class of transnational performers who are nomadic. I couldnt help but think of Roy's poem when I was listening to the exposition. Borders have a real presence in so many of our lives, more so when in our minds they dont exist at all. The underclass of refugees who came to West Bengal in the aftermath of the Partition had few political rights. Theirs was a right to live but that right was circumscribed by the politics of space.Tarapada Roy belonged to such a nomadic citizenship marked by belonging and not belonging. The question 'Kothay Jachchen Tarapadababu?' thus has a special resonance in my mind today; it is question that I catch myself asking often. Where are we off too? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From debjanisgupta at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 09:18:46 2007 From: debjanisgupta at yahoo.com (debjani sengupta) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? In-Reply-To: <735964.70950.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <34076.24595.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> dear dhatri, kothay jachchen has been translated in the piece as 'where are you going'. it may also be marathi as you say. i have no knowledge of marathi so cannot comment. the piece is not about east bengal's history it's about the death of a poet. some deaths diminish all of us. this death does so too. that's why i thought i 'll share my feelings with all of you in the reader list. warm regards, debjani --- we wi wrote: > as per my knowledge 'Kothay Jachchen" is pure > MARATHI word. but tarapadobabu east bengal > history??? > > > debjani sengupta wrote: > A few days ago the poet Tarapada Roy (b 1936) died > in > Kolkata. Curiously for the past week even before I > heard the news, I have been reading his > autobiography > 'Tarapadababu Kothay Jachchen? (Where are you going, > Tarapadababu?) describing his first twenty odd years > as a young boy in Tangail, (now in Bangladesh) and > then his sojourn in Calcutta from 1951. Tarapada Roy > was a poet, a very good one although he was very > modest about the epithet. He often said that when he > saw an envelop marked in his name with the words, > 'the > poet' he felt a deep thrill. He was also a wonderful > short story writer, many of them satires or plain > 'hasyarasatyak' in the vein of Shibram Chakraborty > or > Syed Mujtaba Ali.But to me Tarapada Roy was also > something else. He was the author of some of the > most > poignant poetry and stories on the Partition of > India > that he had witnessed when he was just ten. In a > story > called 'Joe' he talks of a horse that he and his > brother had looked after and that he had to abandon > when they left East Bengal for ever. And in a short > poem written in 1967 the poet describes his first > view > of the city where he comes to live: > > > Do you remember, Kolkata > That green passport, my dark green shirt; > Arriving, drenched, at Sealdah Main > That day on the train from the border > I saw a shoeshine boy for the first time in my life. > > It was a thrill, my dream city, > My first tram-car, my earliest first-class, > First class Kolkata, > Where pet clouds hover over every roof. > Within every window > A mystery of darkness and light. > My green shirt, my ragged shoes, > Fear in every step. > Madmen with beggars, beggars with drunks, > Processions, rainbow hued, horizon stretching. > The crowded teashops, the futile mob on the road. > On windy afternoons dry leaves scatter, > In the sunlight, tram tracks glisten > Pale as ivory, > Reaching nowhere. > Sometimes I feel, > I am no longer within your limits, > Nowhere can I find that city of mine > Where, between two lamp-posts, in a long penalty > kick > Someone sends the football moon to space > While shadowy figures in the gallery yell,’ Goal, > goal.’ > > These twenty years, > I have found nothing in common with you, Kolkata. > My torn dreams, my ragged pieces of poetry > In dirty paper bags the tramps > Have collected them all. > Those dream-words > Have been sold like rubbish. > Not a single mystery window opened anywhere > Nowhere could I reach the clouds on the roofs. > Only the color of my shirt, > My shoe size changed, > Needlessly. > > (That Green Passport: Tarapada Roy) > > It was also curious that two days ago I heard > Etienne > Balibar speak on citizenship that he locates within > the fundamental right of circulation. Balibar > stressed > how the notions of a 'citizen' was being transformed > within the ontological paradoxes of globalization. > In > post national times, borders have become blurred, > meaningless and ubiquitous populations have emerged > who are truly citizens of the roads. They are > citizens > who are partially free from territoriality, a new > class of transnational performers who are nomadic. I > couldnt help but think of Roy's poem when I was > listening to the exposition. Borders have a real > presence in so many of our lives, more so when in > our > minds they dont exist at all. The underclass of > refugees who came to West Bengal in the aftermath of > the Partition had few political rights. Theirs was a > right to live but that right was circumscribed by > the > politics of space.Tarapada Roy belonged to such a > nomadic citizenship marked by belonging and not > belonging. The question 'Kothay Jachchen > Tarapadababu?' thus has a special resonance in my > mind > today; it is question that I catch myself asking > often. Where are we off too? > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? > Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and > hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From cahen.x at levels9.com Wed Sep 19 20:23:24 2007 From: cahen.x at levels9.com (xavier cahen) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:53:24 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 19-09 to 3-10-2007 Message-ID: <46F137E4.2020208@levels9.com> pourinfos.org l'actualité du monde de l'art / daily Art news ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Wenesday September 19, 2007 to Wenesday october 3 2007 (included) ------------------------------------------------------------------- (mostly in french) Dear readers of pourinfos, Pourinfos.org come back (in a minimum service - the service of information on the exhibitions is suspended, the letter pourinfos will be less frequent) until the end of this year 2007. We are looking for a viable solution in order to develop and to continue this experiment media concerning visual arts for artists, mediators, professionals of art, students and students of schools of art. To be more precise, we are in the search of financing in order to develop us and some qualified goodwills in the fields of the mediation concerning arts and management (English wished) in order to answer our development durably. If we remain without solutions at the end of this year, Pourinfos.org would regret to suspend its activities. Yours, Xavier Cahen For the team of pourinfos @ 001 (19/09/2007) Call : fellowship Jean-Claude Reynal 2007, art school of Bordeaux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35050-tit--Bourse-Jean-Claude-Reynal-2007-Ecole-des -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 002 (19/09/2007) Call : Call for artists. Deadline: 3 October 2007, 9 am, San Sebastian, Spain. http://pourinfos.org/art-35051-tit--Call-for-artists-Deadline-3-October -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 003 (19/09/2007) Call : Artist Call for Installation Work, "The First International Day of the Dead Exhibit – 2007", San Francisco, Usa. http://pourinfos.org/art-35052-tit--Artist-Call-for-Installation-Work-The -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 004 (19/09/2007) Call : BigScreen Festival, Hong Kong, China. http://pourinfos.org/art-35053-tit--BigScreen-Festival-Hong-Kong- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 005 (19/09/2007) Call : short film, Espace Canopy, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35054-tit--films-video-courts-Espace-Canopy-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 006 (19/09/2007) Call : WORK IN MOTION - migration, mobility and labour, galerie Red House, Sofia, Bulgaria. http://pourinfos.org/art-35055-tit--WORK-IN-MOTION-migration-mobility-and -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 007 (19/09/2007) Call : prize BOURSE DU TALENT #33 : ESPACE, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35056-tit--BOURSE-DU-TALENT-33-ESPACE-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 008 (19/09/2007) Call : Numeric art exhibition Art & You, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35057-tit-s-Arts-numeriques-Art-You-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 009 (19/09/2007) Call : Est-Nord-Est artist residencies, production and diffusion in contemporary art, Saint-Jean-Port-Joli, Québec, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35058-tit--Est-Nord-Est-residence-d-artistes- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 010 (19/09/2007) Call : prize, « Panasonic’art », Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35059-tit--Concours-de-creation-Panasonic-art- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 011 (19/09/2007) Call : 6th Great International Price of Photography of Vevey, Foundation Vevey Town of Images, Switzerland. http://pourinfos.org/art-35060-tit--6eme-Grand-Prix-International-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 012 (19/09/2007) Call : Fragments, Association of the Artistic activities without Border, Quiévrechain, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35061-tit-Appel-a-candiadature-Fragments- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 013 (19/09/2007) Call : offer for the realization of a work of art for the square of its future media library, les Mureaux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35062-tit--d-offre-pour-la-realisation-d-une-oeuvre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 014 (19/09/2007) Call : 4 th International festival of audio-visual arts VIDEOLOGIA 2007, Volgograd, Russia. http://pourinfos.org/art-35063-tit--4-International-festival-of-audio-visual -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 015 (19/09/2007) Call : BEAUTY ROOM 2008, " Between us... " Miss China, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35064-tit-Appel-a-la-Candidature-BEAUTY-ROOM-2008- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 016 (19/09/2007) Call : HORS PISTES 2008 / 29 et 30 march 2008 aat the centre Pompidou, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35065-tit--HORS-PISTES-2008-29-et-30-mars-2008-au -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 017 (19/09/2007) Call : artists, Association Plastica, galerie Itinerrance, Bagneux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35066-tit--artistes-plasticiens-Association -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 018 (19/09/2007) Call : art critics, writers, Association Plastica, galerie Itinerrance, Bagneux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35067-tit--historiens-d-art-critiques-ou-ecrivains- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 019 (19/09/2007) Call : Artist in Residence Programme , Berlin, germany. http://pourinfos.org/art-35068-tit--Artist-in-Residence-Berlin- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 020 (19/09/2007) Call : Share Award 2008, The sharing, Turin, Italy. http://pourinfos.org/art-35069-tit--Share-Award-2008-The-sharing-Turin- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 021 (19/09/2007) JOb : Photograph, Association Vol de Nuits, Marseille, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35070-tit--1-Artiste-intervenant-e-specialise-e-en -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 022 (19/09/2007) Formation : Laptop Music workshop, asbl iMAL vzw, Brussels, Belgium. http://pourinfos.org/art-35071-tit-Formation-Laptop-Music-workshop-asbl-iMAL -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 023 (19/09/2007) Formation : Initiation with the cinematographic practice, l'ETNA, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35072-tit-Formation-Initiation-a-la-pratique -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 024 (19/09/2007) Job : rstudent in Master 1 ou Master 2, training from September to December 2007, Triangle France, Marseille, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35073-tit--recherche-d-un-etudiant-en-Master-1-ou -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 025 (19/09/2007) Publication : The second delivery of review U-CULTURE (S) is from now on freely downloadable, annual cultural Review of the University of Bourgogne, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35074-tit--La-seconde-livraison-de-la-revue -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 026 (19/09/2007) Publication : n°8 Plastir review, Palaiseau, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35075-tit--n-8-de-la-revue-Plastir-Palaiseau- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 027 (19/09/2007) Publication : Peur|Fear, chronic of zouave on line, ess arts + opinions, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35076-tit--Peur-Fear-chronique-Affaire-de-zouave-en -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 028 (19/09/2007) Publication : No 1, ‘The human factor’ Art Signal Magazine, contemporary art magazine, Barcelona, Spain. http://pourinfos.org/art-35077-tit--No-1-The-human-factor-Art-Signal -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 029 (19/09/2007) Publication : Utopia Station, in « LE MONDE DIPLOMATIQUE » du mois d'août 2007, “the Plan of friendship between art and philosophy”, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35078-tit--Utopia-Station-dans-LE-MONDE _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mitoo at sarai.net Thu Sep 20 08:03:58 2007 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 11:33:58 +0900 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Territories Reimagined: International Perspectives- Call for Papers and Projects Message-ID: <46F1DC16.6020802@sarai.net> *TRIP * *Territories Reimagined: International Perspectives* Manchester, 19-22 June 2008. * * *Call for Papers and Projects* * *Psychogeography* * *Neogeography* * *Deep topography* * *Urban interventions* * *Locative media* * *Collaborative Mapping* * * Between June 19 and 22, 2008, TRIP brings together artists, academics, movers, shakers, do-ers and dissenters in a unique event combining an interdisciplinary conference with a city-wide series of actions, exhibitions, and screenings. TRIP enables the previously separate worlds of theory and practice to interact, initiating new approaches and energies, and furthering techniques to take on and alter the physical environment. * * Beginning as a reaction to the industrial revolution, the re-imagining of the city by romantics, bohemians, and avant-gardists evolved into a diverse range of strategies, practices and arguments, from the psychogeographic drift or derive to the artistic intervention. By the 1990s these were being utilised by artists, writers, activists, and historians, attempting to negotiate urban and rural space in the post-modern world. But practices developed in the twentieth century encounter a different world in the twenty first - a more observed and policed world on the one hand, a more corporate, globally-connected world on the other. Increasingly the body, social, individual and political, is the site of contradictory demands - the demands to consume versus the demands of control. * * TRIP will be based at Manchester Metropolitan University, on the city's main southerly corridor, Oxford Road. But we want events to take place throughout Manchester, in as wide a variety of spaces and venues as possible. Like many northern cities, Manchester is changing fast. Perhaps you want to critique the implications of "regeneration", or perhaps you want to stimulate new ways of engaging with an increasingly consumerised environment. Maybe you're passionate about the possibilities of inventive walking and drifting, or maybe you're a performance artist aiming to change the energy of a public space. Wherever you're coming from, TRIP wants to hear from you with your ideas. *To submit a paper*, you should send an abstract outlining your subject and the key points of your presentation. *To submit an idea for an intervention, performance or a walk* involving members of the public, please outline in one paragraph the aims and ideal locations for your project. *To submit an idea for a gallery-based project*, please outline in one paragraph the thinking behind your installation or work.. Please try to keep your paragraphs to a maximum of 200 words. And don't forget your contact details. Deadline for submissions: *October 1^st 2007*. Submissions should be emailed to: TRIP at mmu.ac.uk *(*and for further information on festival announcements, walks, talks and events, then please access our blog-space, which will be updated regularly at : *http://trip2008.wordpress.com/* The festival proceedings will be fully documented and recorded, and an edited volume of essays, art and photography will be published at a later date.** _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From atreyee.m at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 14:00:25 2007 From: atreyee.m at gmail.com (atreyee majumder) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:00:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 131(re:Tarapada Roy) Message-ID: <1944bc230709200130p28349d10k5787ca797dabdf0f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Debjani and Swadhin, Can you forward any links on the web where I can find Tarapada's work in Bangla, especially the Green Passport poem and others relating to partition and dislocated lives in Calcutta. I know that a number of contemporary Bangla poets have East Bengal roots, but haven't come across such poetry of narratives of dislocation. Who are other poets of 60s and the 70s who have written in a similar genre? That Green Passport is particularly moving, am quite anxious to read it in Bangla. Would be most grateful if you can help me find it. Thanks Atreyee On 9/20/07, reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote: > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Hello (we wi) > 2. Fwd: [Medianthro] Call for Papers: Exploring New Media Worlds > (Britta Ohm) > 3. Re: tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? (Swadhin Sen) > 4. Re: tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? (debjani sengupta) > 5. [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 19-09 to 3-10-2007 > (xavier cahen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:24:18 -0700 (PDT) > From: we wi > Subject: [Reader-list] Hello > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: <168656.17820.qm at web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear All, > > What happened? All of sudden big silence? Seems everybody become work holic at home/office/own business at both sides of the globe? > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > --------------------------------- > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:35:52 +0200 > From: Britta Ohm > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [Medianthro] Call for Papers: Exploring > New Media Worlds > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: <199fa5b701e0cb65d15ba5aaffb52cb3 at zedat.fu-berlin.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > For those interested. > Best -- Britta > > Anfang der weitergeleiteten E-Mail: > > > Von: "Rothenbuhler, Eric" > > Datum: 19. September 2007 17:43:05 MESZ > > An: > > Betreff: [Medianthro] Call for Papers: Exploring New Media Worlds > > > > Greetings Friends, > > > > > > > > Here is the Call for Papers and Proposals for our conference, Exploring > > New Media Worlds, to be held here at Texas A&M University (College > > Station, Texas, US), February 29 to March 2, 2008. For your > > convenience > > I have both attached it and cut and pasted a copy below. > > > > > > > > I hope you will plan to participate. It should be a very interesting > > conference and we will do our best to host you all for a lovely time. > > Please send us a paper or proposal soon or at least before November 20. > > > > > > > > Please pass the Call on to any and all interested colleagues and > > students. Please post it in a prominent place. Note that NCA has > > provided funds for grants to aid graduate student travel; information > > about how to apply is on our webpage. > > > > > > > > Please see the webpage at http://comm.tamu.edu/mediaworlds/ > > > > > > > > Questions or comments to me at Rothenbuhler at tamu.edu or the conference > > email at mediaworlds at libarts.tamu.edu. > > > > > > > > Thank you much and see you soon. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > Eric W. Rothenbuhler > > > > Professor of Communication > > > > Texas A&M University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exploring New Media Worlds: > > > > > > > > Changing Technologies, Industries, Cultures, and Audiences > > > > in Global and Historical Context > > > > > > > > An international conference hosted by > > > > Texas A&M University, February 29 to March 2, 2008 > > > > > > > > Integrating fields of study in a time of change; setting a new agenda > > for media studies. > > > > > > > > Papers and proposals are invited on any aspect of the conference > > themes, > > offering reports of new research, position-taking conceptual essays, > > discussions of media and telecommunication policy, and both > > international and historical comparisons on changing technologies, > > industries, cultures, and audiences. > > > > > > > > The program will include keynote speakers, roundtable discussions, > > thematic panels, prominent scholars as respondents, and time for > > interaction. A wide selection of papers from the conference will be > > published. Travel grants are available for student members of the > > National Communication Association (see our webpage for more > > information). > > > > > > > > Send papers or proposals (abstracts or annotated outlines) with a 50 > > word professional biography by email attachment to > > mediaworlds at libarts.tamu.edu. Panel proposals are also acceptable. > > Deadline: November 20, 2007. > > > > > > > > For more information see http://comm.tamu.edu/mediaworlds > > > > email mediaworlds at libarts.tamu.edu or Rothenbuhler at tamu.edu. > > > > > > > > Keynote speakers: > > > > Larry Grossberg; Steve Jones; Vinny Mosco; and Ellen Seiter. > > > > > > > > Confirmed participants: > > > > Carole Blair, Sandra Braman, Celeste Condit, Bruce Gronbeck, Andrea > > Press, Ronald Rice, Paddy Scannell, Joseph Turow, Angharad Valdivia. > > > > > > > > And the Texas A&M faculty: > > > > Patrick Burkart, Heidi Campbell, Antonio La Pastina, Srivi > > Ramasubramanian, Eric Rothenbuhler, Michael Stephenson, Randy Sumpter, > > and Ian Weber plus strong faculty groups in Rhetoric and Public > > Affairs, > > Health Communication, and Organizational Communication. > > > > > > > > The Exploring New Media Worlds conference is hosted and co-sponsored by > > the Department of Communication, the College of Liberal Arts, the > > Glasscock Center for Humanities Research, and the Program in > > Presidential Rhetoric, Texas A&M University, with support from the > > National Communication Association. > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > ****************************************** > > > > EASA Media Anthropology Network > > http://www.media-anthropology.net > > > > For further information please contact: > > Dr John Postill > > Sheffield Hallam University, UK > > jpostill at usa.net > > > > To manage your subscription to this mailing list, visit: > > > > http://lists.easaonline.org/listinfo.cgi/medianthro-easaonline.org > > > > > ___________________ > > Britta Ohm > Solmsstr. 36 > 10961 Berlin > Germany > +49/30/69507155 > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:43:42 -0700 (PDT) > From: Swadhin Sen > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? > To: debjani sengupta , reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: <773223.32841.qm at web52210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Thank you, Debjani. The piece was illuminating as well as critical. > > Swadhin Sen > Archaeologist > & > Assistant Professor > Department of Archaeology > Jahangirnagar University > Savar, Dhaka > Bangladesh > Ph. 88 01720196176 (mobile) > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: debjani sengupta > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:42:59 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? > > A few days ago the poet Tarapada Roy (b 1936) died in > Kolkata. Curiously for the past week even before I > heard the news, I have been reading his autobiography > 'Tarapadababu Kothay Jachchen? (Where are you going, > Tarapadababu?) describing his first twenty odd years > as a young boy in Tangail, (now in Bangladesh) and > then his sojourn in Calcutta from 1951. Tarapada Roy > was a poet, a very good one although he was very > modest about the epithet. He often said that when he > saw an envelop marked in his name with the words, 'the > poet' he felt a deep thrill. He was also a wonderful > short story writer, many of them satires or plain > 'hasyarasatyak' in the vein of Shibram Chakraborty or > Syed Mujtaba Ali.But to me Tarapada Roy was also > something else. He was the author of some of the most > poignant poetry and stories on the Partition of India > that he had witnessed when he was just ten. In a story > called 'Joe' he talks of a horse that he and his > brother had looked after and that he had to abandon > when they left East Bengal for ever. And in a short > poem written in 1967 the poet describes his first view > of the city where he comes to live: > > > Do you remember, Kolkata > That green passport, my dark green shirt; > Arriving, drenched, at Sealdah Main > That day on the train from the border > I saw a shoeshine boy for the first time in my life. > > It was a thrill, my dream city, > My first tram-car, my earliest first-class, > First class Kolkata, > Where pet clouds hover over every roof. > Within every window > A mystery of darkness and light. > My green shirt, my ragged shoes, > Fear in every step. > Madmen with beggars, beggars with drunks, > Processions, rainbow hued, horizon stretching. > The crowded teashops, the futile mob on the road. > On windy afternoons dry leaves scatter, > In the sunlight, tram tracks glisten > Pale as ivory, > Reaching nowhere. > Sometimes I feel, > I am no longer within your limits, > Nowhere can I find that city of mine > Where, between two lamp-posts, in a long penalty kick > Someone sends the football moon to space > While shadowy figures in the gallery yell, Goal, > goal. > > These twenty years, > I have found nothing in common with you, Kolkata. > My torn dreams, my ragged pieces of poetry > In dirty paper bags the tramps > Have collected them all. > Those dream-words > Have been sold like rubbish. > Not a single mystery window opened anywhere > Nowhere could I reach the clouds on the roofs. > Only the color of my shirt, > My shoe size changed, > Needlessly. > > (That Green Passport: Tarapada Roy) > > It was also curious that two days ago I heard Etienne > Balibar speak on citizenship that he locates within > the fundamental right of circulation. Balibar stressed > how the notions of a 'citizen' was being transformed > within the ontological paradoxes of globalization. In > post national times, borders have become blurred, > meaningless and ubiquitous populations have emerged > who are truly citizens of the roads. They are citizens > who are partially free from territoriality, a new > class of transnational performers who are nomadic. I > couldnt help but think of Roy's poem when I was > listening to the exposition. Borders have a real > presence in so many of our lives, more so when in our > minds they dont exist at all. The underclass of > refugees who came to West Bengal in the aftermath of > the Partition had few political rights. Theirs was a > right to live but that right was circumscribed by the > politics of space.Tarapada Roy belonged to such a > nomadic citizenship marked by belonging and not > belonging. The question 'Kothay Jachchen > Tarapadababu?' thus has a special resonance in my mind > today; it is question that I catch myself asking > often. Where are we off too? > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:48:46 -0700 (PDT) > From: debjani sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? > To: we wi > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: <34076.24595.qm at web54406.mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > dear dhatri, kothay jachchen has been translated in > the piece as 'where are you going'. it may also be > marathi as you say. i have no knowledge of marathi so > cannot comment. the piece is not about east bengal's > history it's about the death of a poet. some deaths > diminish all of us. this death does so too. that's why > i thought i 'll share my feelings with all of you in > the reader list. warm regards, debjani > --- we wi wrote: > > > as per my knowledge 'Kothay Jachchen" is pure > > MARATHI word. but tarapadobabu east bengal > > history??? > > > > > > debjani sengupta wrote: > > A few days ago the poet Tarapada Roy (b 1936) died > > in > > Kolkata. Curiously for the past week even before I > > heard the news, I have been reading his > > autobiography > > 'Tarapadababu Kothay Jachchen? (Where are you going, > > Tarapadababu?) describing his first twenty odd years > > as a young boy in Tangail, (now in Bangladesh) and > > then his sojourn in Calcutta from 1951. Tarapada Roy > > was a poet, a very good one although he was very > > modest about the epithet. He often said that when he > > saw an envelop marked in his name with the words, > > 'the > > poet' he felt a deep thrill. He was also a wonderful > > short story writer, many of them satires or plain > > 'hasyarasatyak' in the vein of Shibram Chakraborty > > or > > Syed Mujtaba Ali.But to me Tarapada Roy was also > > something else. He was the author of some of the > > most > > poignant poetry and stories on the Partition of > > India > > that he had witnessed when he was just ten. In a > > story > > called 'Joe' he talks of a horse that he and his > > brother had looked after and that he had to abandon > > when they left East Bengal for ever. And in a short > > poem written in 1967 the poet describes his first > > view > > of the city where he comes to live: > > > > > > Do you remember, Kolkata > > That green passport, my dark green shirt; > > Arriving, drenched, at Sealdah Main > > That day on the train from the border > > I saw a shoeshine boy for the first time in my life. > > > > It was a thrill, my dream city, > > My first tram-car, my earliest first-class, > > First class Kolkata, > > Where pet clouds hover over every roof. > > Within every window > > A mystery of darkness and light. > > My green shirt, my ragged shoes, > > Fear in every step. > > Madmen with beggars, beggars with drunks, > > Processions, rainbow hued, horizon stretching. > > The crowded teashops, the futile mob on the road. > > On windy afternoons dry leaves scatter, > > In the sunlight, tram tracks glisten > > Pale as ivory, > > Reaching nowhere. > > Sometimes I feel, > > I am no longer within your limits, > > Nowhere can I find that city of mine > > Where, between two lamp-posts, in a long penalty > > kick > > Someone sends the football moon to space > > While shadowy figures in the gallery yell,Â' Goal, > > goal.Â' > > > > These twenty years, > > I have found nothing in common with you, Kolkata. > > My torn dreams, my ragged pieces of poetry > > In dirty paper bags the tramps > > Have collected them all. > > Those dream-words > > Have been sold like rubbish. > > Not a single mystery window opened anywhere > > Nowhere could I reach the clouds on the roofs. > > Only the color of my shirt, > > My shoe size changed, > > Needlessly. > > > > (That Green Passport: Tarapada Roy) > > > > It was also curious that two days ago I heard > > Etienne > > Balibar speak on citizenship that he locates within > > the fundamental right of circulation. Balibar > > stressed > > how the notions of a 'citizen' was being transformed > > within the ontological paradoxes of globalization. > > In > > post national times, borders have become blurred, > > meaningless and ubiquitous populations have emerged > > who are truly citizens of the roads. They are > > citizens > > who are partially free from territoriality, a new > > class of transnational performers who are nomadic. I > > couldnt help but think of Roy's poem when I was > > listening to the exposition. Borders have a real > > presence in so many of our lives, more so when in > > our > > minds they dont exist at all. The underclass of > > refugees who came to West Bengal in the aftermath of > > the Partition had few political rights. Theirs was a > > right to live but that right was circumscribed by > > the > > politics of space.Tarapada Roy belonged to such a > > nomadic citizenship marked by belonging and not > > belonging. The question 'Kothay Jachchen > > Tarapadababu?' thus has a special resonance in my > > mind > > today; it is question that I catch myself asking > > often. Where are we off too? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? > > Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. > > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and > > hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Need a vacation? Get great deals > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > http://travel.yahoo.com/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:53:24 +0200 > From: xavier cahen > Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 19-09 to > 3-10-2007 > To: "Liste Sarai.Net" > Message-ID: <46F137E4.2020208 at levels9.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > pourinfos.org > l'actualitÃ(c) du monde de l'art / daily Art news > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >From Wenesday September 19, 2007 to Wenesday october 3 2007 (included) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > (mostly in french) > > > Dear readers of pourinfos, > > Pourinfos.org come back (in a minimum service - the service of > information on the exhibitions is suspended, the letter pourinfos will > be less frequent) until the end of this year 2007. > We are looking for a viable solution in order to develop and to continue > this experiment media concerning visual arts for artists, mediators, > professionals of art, students and students of schools of art. > To be more precise, we are in the search of financing in order to > develop us and some qualified goodwills in the fields of the mediation > concerning arts and management (English wished) in order to answer our > development durably. > If we remain without solutions at the end of this year, Pourinfos.org > would regret to suspend its activities. > > Yours, > Xavier Cahen > For the team of pourinfos > > > @ 001 (19/09/2007) > Call : fellowship Jean-Claude Reynal 2007, art school of Bordeaux, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35050-tit--Bourse-Jean-Claude-Reynal-2007-Ecole-des > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 002 (19/09/2007) > Call : Call for artists. Deadline: 3 October 2007, 9 am, San Sebastian, > Spain. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35051-tit--Call-for-artists-Deadline-3-October > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 003 (19/09/2007) > Call : Artist Call for Installation Work, "The First International Day > of the Dead Exhibit â€" 2007", San Francisco, Usa. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35052-tit--Artist-Call-for-Installation-Work-The > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 004 (19/09/2007) > Call : BigScreen Festival, Hong Kong, China. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35053-tit--BigScreen-Festival-Hong-Kong- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 005 (19/09/2007) > Call : short film, Espace Canopy, Paris, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35054-tit--films-video-courts-Espace-Canopy-Paris- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 006 (19/09/2007) > Call : WORK IN MOTION - migration, mobility and labour, galerie Red > House, Sofia, Bulgaria. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35055-tit--WORK-IN-MOTION-migration-mobility-and > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 007 (19/09/2007) > Call : prize BOURSE DU TALENT #33 : ESPACE, Paris, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35056-tit--BOURSE-DU-TALENT-33-ESPACE-Paris- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 008 (19/09/2007) > Call : Numeric art exhibition Art & You, Paris, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35057-tit-s-Arts-numeriques-Art-You-Paris- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 009 (19/09/2007) > Call : Est-Nord-Est artist residencies, production and diffusion in > contemporary art, Saint-Jean-Port-Joli, QuÃ(c)bec, Canada. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35058-tit--Est-Nord-Est-residence-d-artistes- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 010 (19/09/2007) > Call : prize, « Panasonic’art », Paris, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35059-tit--Concours-de-creation-Panasonic-art- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 011 (19/09/2007) > Call : 6th Great International Price of Photography of Vevey, Foundation > Vevey Town of Images, Switzerland. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35060-tit--6eme-Grand-Prix-International-de > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 012 (19/09/2007) > Call : Fragments, Association of the Artistic activities without Border, > QuiÃ(c)vrechain, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35061-tit-Appel-a-candiadature-Fragments- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 013 (19/09/2007) > Call : offer for the realization of a work of art for the square of its > future media library, les Mureaux, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35062-tit--d-offre-pour-la-realisation-d-une-oeuvre > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 014 (19/09/2007) > Call : 4 th International festival of audio-visual arts VIDEOLOGIA 2007, > Volgograd, Russia. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35063-tit--4-International-festival-of-audio-visual > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 015 (19/09/2007) > Call : BEAUTY ROOM 2008, " Between us... " Miss China, Paris, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35064-tit-Appel-a-la-Candidature-BEAUTY-ROOM-2008- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 016 (19/09/2007) > Call : HORS PISTES 2008 / 29 et 30 march 2008 aat the centre Pompidou, > Paris, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35065-tit--HORS-PISTES-2008-29-et-30-mars-2008-au > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 017 (19/09/2007) > Call : artists, Association Plastica, galerie Itinerrance, Bagneux, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35066-tit--artistes-plasticiens-Association > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 018 (19/09/2007) > Call : art critics, writers, Association Plastica, galerie Itinerrance, > Bagneux, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35067-tit--historiens-d-art-critiques-ou-ecrivains- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 019 (19/09/2007) > Call : Artist in Residence Programme , Berlin, germany. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35068-tit--Artist-in-Residence-Berlin- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 020 (19/09/2007) > Call : Share Award 2008, The sharing, Turin, Italy. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35069-tit--Share-Award-2008-The-sharing-Turin- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 021 (19/09/2007) > JOb : Photograph, Association Vol de Nuits, Marseille, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35070-tit--1-Artiste-intervenant-e-specialise-e-en > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 022 (19/09/2007) > Formation : Laptop Music workshop, asbl iMAL vzw, Brussels, Belgium. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35071-tit-Formation-Laptop-Music-workshop-asbl-iMAL > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 023 (19/09/2007) > Formation : Initiation with the cinematographic practice, l'ETNA, Paris, > France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35072-tit-Formation-Initiation-a-la-pratique > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 024 (19/09/2007) > Job : rstudent in Master 1 ou Master 2, training from September to > December 2007, Triangle France, Marseille, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35073-tit--recherche-d-un-etudiant-en-Master-1-ou > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 025 (19/09/2007) > Publication : The second delivery of review U-CULTURE (S) is from now on > freely > downloadable, annual cultural Review of the University of Bourgogne, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35074-tit--La-seconde-livraison-de-la-revue > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 026 (19/09/2007) > Publication : n°8 Plastir review, Palaiseau, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35075-tit--n-8-de-la-revue-Plastir-Palaiseau- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 027 (19/09/2007) > Publication : Peur|Fear, chronic of zouave on line, ess arts + opinions, > Montreal, Canada. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35076-tit--Peur-Fear-chronique-Affaire-de-zouave-en > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 028 (19/09/2007) > Publication : No 1, ‘The human factor’ Art Signal Magazine, contemporary > art magazine, Barcelona, Spain. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35077-tit--No-1-The-human-factor-Art-Signal > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > @ 029 (19/09/2007) > Publication : Utopia Station, in « LE MONDE DIPLOMATIQUE » du mois > d'août 2007, “the Plan of friendship > between art and philosophy†, Paris, France. > http://pourinfos.org/art-35078-tit--Utopia-Station-dans-LE-MONDE > > _______________________________________________ > announcements mailing list > announcements at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 131 > ******************************************** > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 15:26:28 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 02:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? In-Reply-To: <144788.40543.qm@web54404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <352062.95435.qm@web57209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Debjani Thanks for the Poem. Liked it very much especially for the resonances (personal). The English translation does not falter in what must be more poignant evocations in the original Bengali - Dreams; Alienation; Rejection: - from 'dream city' to 'torn dreams...dream words..... sold like rubbish' - the 'mystery of darkness and light" in windows that never opened - hovering over the roof but never to be reached 'pet clouds' ... (what shapes/hopes he must have seen in them) - only 'colour of my shirt' and 'shoe size' changes - from "Do you remember Kolkata" to ... let me tell you Kolkatta... 'I have found nothing in common with you' Common threads run through most Poetry of "exile" or "displacement". Kshmendra Kaul debjani sengupta wrote: A few days ago the poet Tarapada Roy (b 1936) died in Kolkata. Curiously for the past week even before I heard the news, I have been reading his autobiography 'Tarapadababu Kothay Jachchen? (Where are you going, Tarapadababu?) describing his first twenty odd years as a young boy in Tangail, (now in Bangladesh) and then his sojourn in Calcutta from 1951. Tarapada Roy was a poet, a very good one although he was very modest about the epithet. He often said that when he saw an envelop marked in his name with the words, 'the poet' he felt a deep thrill. He was also a wonderful short story writer, many of them satires or plain 'hasyarasatyak' in the vein of Shibram Chakraborty or Syed Mujtaba Ali.But to me Tarapada Roy was also something else. He was the author of some of the most poignant poetry and stories on the Partition of India that he had witnessed when he was just ten. In a story called 'Joe' he talks of a horse that he and his brother had looked after and that he had to abandon when they left East Bengal for ever. And in a short poem written in 1967 the poet describes his first view of the city where he comes to live: Do you remember, Kolkata That green passport, my dark green shirt; Arriving, drenched, at Sealdah Main That day on the train from the border I saw a shoeshine boy for the first time in my life. It was a thrill, my dream city, My first tram-car, my earliest first-class, First class Kolkata, Where pet clouds hover over every roof. Within every window A mystery of darkness and light. My green shirt, my ragged shoes, Fear in every step. Madmen with beggars, beggars with drunks, Processions, rainbow hued, horizon stretching. The crowded teashops, the futile mob on the road. On windy afternoons dry leaves scatter, In the sunlight, tram tracks glisten Pale as ivory, Reaching nowhere. Sometimes I feel, I am no longer within your limits, Nowhere can I find that city of mine Where, between two lamp-posts, in a long penalty kick Someone sends the football moon to space While shadowy figures in the gallery yell,’ Goal, goal.’ These twenty years, I have found nothing in common with you, Kolkata. My torn dreams, my ragged pieces of poetry In dirty paper bags the tramps Have collected them all. Those dream-words Have been sold like rubbish. Not a single mystery window opened anywhere Nowhere could I reach the clouds on the roofs. Only the color of my shirt, My shoe size changed, Needlessly. (That Green Passport: Tarapada Roy) It was also curious that two days ago I heard Etienne Balibar speak on citizenship that he locates within the fundamental right of circulation. Balibar stressed how the notions of a 'citizen' was being transformed within the ontological paradoxes of globalization. In post national times, borders have become blurred, meaningless and ubiquitous populations have emerged who are truly citizens of the roads. They are citizens who are partially free from territoriality, a new class of transnational performers who are nomadic. I couldnt help but think of Roy's poem when I was listening to the exposition. Borders have a real presence in so many of our lives, more so when in our minds they dont exist at all. The underclass of refugees who came to West Bengal in the aftermath of the Partition had few political rights. Theirs was a right to live but that right was circumscribed by the politics of space.Tarapada Roy belonged to such a nomadic citizenship marked by belonging and not belonging. The question 'Kothay Jachchen Tarapadababu?' thus has a special resonance in my mind today; it is question that I catch myself asking often. Where are we off too? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. From sridevi.padmanabhan at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 15:28:57 2007 From: sridevi.padmanabhan at gmail.com (sridevi.padmanabhan at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 02:58:57 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] relentlessly wants to share sites with you... Message-ID: <24ad86bed3ed294eb6274600360b173b@smtp.stumbleupon.com> relentlessly (sridevi.padmanabhan at gmail.com) has invited you to StumbleUpon! You can see my other favorites here: http://relentlessly.stumbleupon.com Thanks, relentlessly --- StumbleUpon lets you discover great sites with a single click. Give it a try at: http://www.stumbleupon.com/join.php?friend=3914514&emailcode=bh9kkpjkksy607x8 From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 17:34:32 2007 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:34:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Partition Dastans Message-ID: A repeat of PARTITION DASTANS at IP COLLEGE, SEMINAR ROOM, SATURDAY THE 22nd, at 12.30 pm... From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 19:53:57 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:23:57 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: Cartoon Controversy Spins Out Of Control Message-ID: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/09/18/bangladesh-cartoonist-arrested/ http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/09/19/the-hypocrisy-of-the-bangla-mullahs/ http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/09/18/exit-the-tiger-enter-the-dragon/ From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 20:22:19 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:52:19 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] War Of Six Six Six | Dear Runa Message-ID: A few current projects... ########################## War of Six Six Six against Sixty Million http://shobak.org/projects/war_of_six.shtml at Finnish Museum of Photography (Jan 07-Sep 08) ########################## Dear Runa, I Found Your Props http://shobak.org/projects/dear_runa.shtml for Pawnshop, an e-flux project (Fall 07) ########################## I Can't Find Dhaka (w/ Salahuddin Ahmed/Atelier Robin Architects, Dhaka) http://shobak.org/projects/cant_find_dhaka.shtml for FM Ferry Experiment (Sep 07) a neurotransmitter project ########################## Conversation w/ Trevor Paglen http://shobak.org/text/atlas.shtml for Atlas of Radical Cartography a project by Lize Mogel & Lex Bhagat ########################## From rowanwilsonwork at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 20 22:29:23 2007 From: rowanwilsonwork at yahoo.co.uk (Rowan Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:59:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] John Berger presents Pasolini's La Rabbia at the Curzon Mayfair - 4th October Message-ID: <236675.49999.qm@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> HOLD EVERYTHING DEAR: JOHN BERGER IN CONSERVATION AFTER PASOLINI’S LA RABBIA 3rd OCTOBER, 6:30 P.M. CURZON SOHO CINEMA LA RABBIA Piers Paolo Pasolini, 1962, Italy / 60 mins John Berger is a storyteller, essayist, novelist, screenwriter, dramatist and critic. He is one of the most internationally influential writers of the last fifty years, one who has explored the relationships between the individual and society, culture and politics, and experience and expression in a series of novels, essays, plays, films, photographic collaborations and performances, unmatched in their diversity, ambition and reach. His television series and book Ways of Seeing revolutionised the way that fine art is read and understood. His latest book, Hold Everything Dear, is a remarkable collection of essays and reflections on the meaning of commitment and resistance. From striking meditations on the ‘war on terror’ to moving encounters in Palestine and considerations of radical cultural practise, it deepens and extends our understanding of the difficult present moment. One piece is prompted by Pier Paolo Pasolini’s little seen 1962 film-essay LA RABBIA, a remarkable newsreel assembly in which the great film-maker considers the oppressions and losses of the time. It is a prophetic work, angry, empathetic, and almost completely unseen for 45 years. Following its screening, John Berger will be in conversation with Gareth Evans, editor of Vertigo magazine and curator of ‘Here Is Where We Meet’, a 2005 celebration of Berger’s work. Every audience member will receive a free copy of a 96 page, fully illustrated exploration of John Berger’s life and work, with original writing by Berger, Geoff Dyer, Michael Ondaatje and Anne Michaels, among many others. Hold Everything Dear (ISBN: 978 1 84467 138 0; £12.99) is published by Verso Books (www.versobooks.com). It will be available to buy on the night. For images or more information contact Simon Howarth on 020 7438 9543 (simon.howarth at curzoncinemas.com). For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. ___________________________________________________________ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html From vikash.sen at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 22:52:40 2007 From: vikash.sen at gmail.com (Bikash Ballabh Singh) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:52:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How true is Justice Sabharwal? Probe demanded. Message-ID: <25c340bd0709201022p394a6f55wf32971544bf0570a@mail.gmail.com> Former Chief Justice of India (CJI) Justice YK Sabarwal is in the midst of a controversy, with senior lawyers and former CJIs demanding a probe into the allegations. A Report... by Abhishek Behl http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=126536 HE SEALED the fate of many a people in Delhi, with his strict orders on 'Sealing' the illegal buildings in the Indian capital. But 'sealing' today came back to haunt the former Chief Justice of India (CJI), Justice Y K Sabharwal, when questions were raised over his professional conduct into the entire sealing episode. Raising serious allegations over the professional demeanour of the former CJI, the Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR), a group of jurists and social activists, demanded a probe into the manner in which his Lordship accrued pecuniary benefits for his sons, through his judicial orders over the sealing issue, on Wednesday (September 19). We need to approach the serious allegations against the former CJI with caution and care. Is Justice Sabharwal being singled out for some reason or is there any iota of truth in these charges? In fact, a section of the legal fraternity feels that Justice Sabharwal should himself demand an impartial probe into the serious allegations. They added that other former CJIs, judges and senior lawyers' demand for a fair probe into these charges needs to be viewed in the light of utter fairness and objectivity. Addressing media persons in Delhi, senior lawyer Prashant Bhushan demanded that an independent probe should be ordered by the Supreme Court of India to find out the truth. "We want the truth to come out and for this the Supreme Court has to take the lead", he said, alleging that Justice Sabharwal's two sons had colluded with the builders to take advantage of the real estate market influenced by the sealing drive. Making a point-by-point rebuttal of Justice Sabharwal's statement published in the media, Prashant demanded that the Justice Sabharwal be charged under prevention of corruption act. The Judicial Reforms Group further stated that they would initiate an independent inquiry if the Supreme Court did nothing in this regard. A time of reckoning for Indian Judiciary has come and it is time the Apex Court rises to the occasion and faces the challenge, said former Law Minister and veteran lawyer, Shanti Bhushan. "A number of former Chief Justices including Justice V K Krishna Iyer, Justice PB Sawant, Justice JC Verma have called for a probe into this matter and same will bring forth the truth. Noted social activists Swami Agnivesh and Arvind Kejriwal, who were present on the occasion, also demanded an impartial probe into the affairs of Justice Sabharwal. On this occasion, a document, in the form of a press release, was issued by the Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms detailing the alleged irregularities. Here it must be mentioned that former Chief Justices of India including Justice J C Verma, Justice VN Khare, Justice PB Sawant and Justice V R Krishna Iyer had called for a voluntary probe to put an end to this controversy. They had said that an independent probe would bring out the truth and restore the credibility of Indian judiciary. A few days earlier, Justice Sabharwal had, however, strongly denied any wrongdoing on his part or on the part of his two sons, in the media. The document (press release), is reproduced verbatim, issued by Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR), on Wednesday: Justice Sabharwal finally broke his silence in a signed piece in the Times of India. His defence proceeds by ignoring and sidestepping the inconvenient and emphasizing the irrelevant if it can evoke sympathy. To examine the adequacy of his defence, we need to see his defence against the gravamen of each charge against him. *Charge No. 1:* That his son's companies had shifted their registered offices to his official residence. *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That as soon as he came to know he ordered his son's to shift it back. *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* This is False. In April 2007, in a recorded interview with the Midday reporter MK Tayal he feigned total ignorance of the shifting of the offices to his official residence. Copy of the CD containing the said conversation is attached hereto as Annexure I. In fact, the registered offices were shifted back from his official residence to his Punjabi Bagh residence exactly on the day that the BPTP mall developers became his sons' partners, making it very risky to continue at his official residence. Copies of the document showing the date of induction of Kabul Chawla, the promoter and owner of BPTP in Pawan Impex Pvt. Ltd., one of the companies of Jutstice Sabharwal's sons, and Form no. 18 showing the shifting of the registered office from the official residence of Justice Sabharwal to his family residence on 23rd October 2004 are attached hereto as Annexure II (Colly). *Charge No. 2:* That he called for and dealt with the sealing of commercial property case in March 2005, though it was not assigned to him. It is only the Chief Justice who can assign pending cases to various judges. He was not the CJI at that time. Copy of the order dated 17th March 2005 is attached hereto as Annexure III. *Justice Sabharwal's response:* Justice Sabharwal does not answer this charge. *Charge No. 3:* That he did this exactly around the time that his sons got into partnerships with Mall and commercial complex developers, who stood to benefit from his sealing orders. The chain of events is as follows: On 23rd October 2004, Kabul Chawla, the promoter of one of the biggest developers of shopping malls and commercial complexes, was inducted in Pawan Impex as a 50% shareholder and Director. On 12.02.2005, Kabul Chawla's wife, Anjali Chawla was also inducted as Director of Pawan Impex. On 17th March 2005, Justice Sabharwal ordered that the case dealing with the sealing of commercial establishments should also be heard along with the writ of M.C. Mehta, which was being heard by him. On 8th April 2005, Chetan Sabharwal and Nitin Sabharwal, two sons of Justice Sabharwal, set up another company, Harpawan Constructors, with the object of constructing Commercial complexes. On 25th October 2005, Purshottam Bagheria, one of the big builders on shopping malls and commercial complexes of Delhi was inducted as a partner in Harpwan Construtors. On 16th Februrary 2006, Justice Y. K. Sabharwal, who by that time had become the Chief Justice of India, passed a detailed order in the aforementioned case setting into motion the demolition and sealing in Delhi. *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That they were his sons friends. That Harpawan Constructors, which was set up by his sons with the Mall developer Purshottam Bagheria did not do any business. In fact the courts under him got Bagheria's 1 MG road mall demolished. That his sons are not developing shopping malls but only an IT Park. *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* If so many Mall and commercial complex developers were his sons' close friends, then he should not have dealt with the case anyway since that creates an immediate conflict of interest. Moreover, why should they go into partnership with these developers who stood to benefit from Justice Sabharwal's orders, and that too exactly at the time when he seizes control of the sealing of commercial property case and starts dealing with it. He says that the company set up by his sons in partnership with Bagheria has not done any business. If so, why was this new company set up for developing commercial complexes in partnership with this builder? In an interview with ZNews Justice Sabhawal claims credit for the judiciary under him ordering the demolition of the illegal 1 MG road mall owned by Bagheria. But then why do his sons enter into partnerships with such an illegal builder whose buildings have had to be demolished by the Judiciary? And immediately after this partnership with the Sabharwals, Bagheria went on to announce the construction of "Square 1 mall" in Saket as the most fashionable mall in India. And all the fashion designers who had their shops and outlets at 1 MG road went on to buy space in the Square I mall. What is important to note here is that Bagheria and his partners at 1 MG road had already parted with all the space on 1 MG Road. The demolition thus hurt the designers and others who had bought shops there, but did not hurt Bagheria who may have in fact benefited from it by clearing the land of his tenants and getting them to buy space at his new malls at Saket and elsewhere. An IT park is also a commercial complex like any other. Many commercial establishments sealed were IT centres and BPOs, which were forced to buy space in, IT parks like that being constructed by his sons and their partners. *Charge No. 4:* That the Union Bank of India gave a loan of 28 crores to his sons' company Pavan Impex on a collateral of plant and machinery and other moveables at the site of their proposed IT Park, which were non-existent. *Justice Sabharwal's response*: That his sons' had a credit facility of 75 crores. *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* If that were the case, what was the need for mortgaging non-existent assets for obtaining this loan? Moreover, the Banks' senior manager is on record saying that the loan was given on the basis of projected sales to prospective customers. The conversation with the Bank Manager is in the CD attached hereto as Annexure I. *Charge No. 5:* That because of the obvious conflict of interest, he could not have dealt with this case. *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That his orders have never benefited his sons. *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* His orders of sealing lakhs of commercial properties clearly forced those establishments to buy or rent space in commercial complexes like those that his sons' companies were constructing; and shopping malls etc that their friends and partners were constructing. There was a clear conflict of interest and his orders have clearly benefited his sons and their partners. *Charge No. 6:* That a large number of industrial and commercial plots were allotted in Noida by the UP government to his sons' companies, at prices far below the market price. In particular several huge plots were allotted between December 2004 and November 2006 by the Mulayam Singh/Amar Singh government, while he was dealing with Amar Singh's tapes case, and had stayed the publication of those tapes on the behest of Amar Singh. *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That some of the plots were allotted by earlier different governments. That the prices were not far below the market price. That the allotments were made in the normal course to his sons who were entrepreneurs and were providing employment to hundreds of people in Noida. *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* Even if one were to look at only the last two allotments of 12,000 metres each made in December 2004 and November 2006, made by the Mulayam Singh/Amar Singh governments, it is obvious that the allotments are definitely not in the normal course. Consider the allotment to Pawan Impex. The company has Nil turnover and Nil business (as declared in their application) on the date of application on 30/12/04. The very next day they receive a letter from Noida Authority asking them to come for an interview within 4 days on 5/11/04. On that day the authority notes that they want 12,000 sq m in Sector 125 or Sector 132. The minutes note that because the work of development of Sector 125 is not complete and because in sector 132 the plot size available is only upto 11,000 sq metres, the matter is deferred for the next meeting. In the next meeting on 13/12/04, though Sector 125 is still not developed, a decision is taken to allot them a 12,000 Sq. metre plot in Sector 125 for a BPO. All this without a word about how and why a company with nil business is worthy of being allotted one of the largest plots of 12,000 sq. meters. The previous application of M/s Softedge Solutions Pvt. Ltd for an IT park is rejected on the ground that they could not satisfactorily answer questions about their previous experience in IT and their technical tie up. But Pawan Impex represented by Chetan Sabharwal with Nil business, no previous track record in IT and no technical tie up sails through with no questions asked. All in the normal course, of course! Copies of the profit and loss accounts of Pawan Impex Pvt. Ltd. for the year ended 31.03.2003 and 31.03.2004 showing its income nil are attached hereto as Annexure IV (Colly). Justice Sabharwal says that the allotment price of Rs. 3,700/sq M was not below the market price. The current circle rate in Sector 125 is Rs. 11,000/sq metre and the market price is over Rs. 30,000/sq meter there. Similarly, the huge plot of 3 acres, No. 12 A in Sector 68 alloted to Sabs Exports in November 2006 at a throw away price of Rs. 4000 per square meter is also not in the normal course and was similarly made within days of application and a bogus interview, without any other system. Today, within 10 months of allotment, even the circle rate of plots in Sector 68 is Rs. 8,000 per sq. meter and the market rate is Rs. 20-22,000 per sq. meter. Moreover this allotment has been made at a time when he was dealing with Amar Singh's tapes case and had stayed the publication of the tapes. *Charge No. 7:* That his sons have purchased a 1150 square meter house in Maharani bagh, New Delhi in March 2007 for a consideration of 15.46 crores. The source of money for this is unexplained and in the sale deed they seek to conceal their relationship with Justice Sabharwal by writing his name as Yogesh Kumar and giving their factory address instead of the residential address. *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That 90 per cent of the money for the purchase of this house was from four banks; that his sons concealed his full name in the sale deed in order to avoid taking advantage of their association with him. * * *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* Banks do not normally advance loans of 90% of the value of a property on its security. Otherwise they would end up holding inadequate security if the property prices fall by even 15%. If they have done so in this case, it is either because of an undue favour as in the case of the loan of 28 Crores to Pawan Impex, or they valued the property higher than the declared purchase price. His explanation for concealing his name in the sale deed is hilarious and unbelievable since his sons did not hesitate to use his official residence as the registered office of their companies. Moreover, this was in a registered sale deed with a private party, where there was no occasion for taking any advantage by using his name. From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Sep 20 23:05:12 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:05:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How true is Justice Sabharwal? Probe demanded. In-Reply-To: <25c340bd0709201022p394a6f55wf32971544bf0570a@mail.gmail.com> References: <25c340bd0709201022p394a6f55wf32971544bf0570a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30709201035v5fc697b5xca8d259e2ac90869@mail.gmail.com> Dear Bikash, Thanks for posting this here. If you happen to know Mr Abhishek Behl, please tell him that plagiarism may not be as bad as nepotism by a Chief Justice but it is still criminal. No doubt you will find this on "merinews," which is sadly falls lowest in terms of online credibility. best shivam On 9/20/07, Bikash Ballabh Singh wrote: > Former Chief Justice of India (CJI) Justice YK Sabarwal is in the midst of a > controversy, with senior lawyers and former CJIs demanding a probe into the > allegations. A Report... > > by Abhishek Behl > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=126536 > > HE SEALED the fate of many a people in Delhi, with his strict orders on > 'Sealing' the illegal buildings in the Indian capital. > > But 'sealing' today came back to haunt the former Chief Justice of India > (CJI), Justice Y K Sabharwal, when questions were raised over his > professional conduct into the entire sealing episode. > > Raising serious allegations over the professional demeanour of the former > CJI, the Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR), > a group of jurists and social activists, demanded a probe into the manner in > which his Lordship accrued pecuniary benefits for his sons, through his > judicial orders over the sealing issue, on Wednesday (September 19). > > We need to approach the serious allegations against the former CJI with > caution and care. Is Justice Sabharwal being singled out for some reason or > is there any iota of truth in these charges? In fact, a section of the legal > fraternity feels that Justice Sabharwal should himself demand an impartial > probe into the serious allegations. They added that other former CJIs, > judges and senior lawyers' demand for a fair probe into these charges needs > to be viewed in the light of utter fairness and objectivity. > > Addressing media persons in Delhi, senior lawyer Prashant Bhushan demanded > that an independent probe should be ordered by the Supreme Court of India to > find out the truth. > > "We want the truth to come out and for this the Supreme Court has to take > the lead", he said, alleging that Justice Sabharwal's two sons had colluded > with the builders to take advantage of the real estate market influenced by > the sealing drive. > > Making a point-by-point rebuttal of Justice Sabharwal's statement published > in the media, Prashant demanded that the Justice Sabharwal be charged under > prevention of corruption act. > > The Judicial Reforms Group further stated that they would initiate an > independent inquiry if the Supreme Court did nothing in this regard. > > A time of reckoning for Indian Judiciary has come and it is time the Apex > Court rises to the occasion and faces the challenge, said former Law > Minister and veteran lawyer, Shanti Bhushan. > > "A number of former Chief Justices including Justice V K Krishna Iyer, > Justice PB Sawant, Justice JC Verma have called for a probe into this matter > and same will bring forth the truth. > > Noted social activists Swami Agnivesh and Arvind Kejriwal, who were present > on the occasion, also demanded an impartial probe into the affairs of > Justice Sabharwal. > > On this occasion, a document, in the form of a press release, was issued by > the Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms detailing the > alleged irregularities. > > Here it must be mentioned that former Chief Justices of India including > Justice J C Verma, Justice VN Khare, Justice PB Sawant and Justice V R > Krishna Iyer had called for a voluntary probe to put an end to this > controversy. They had said that an independent probe would bring out the > truth and restore the credibility of Indian judiciary. > > A few days earlier, Justice Sabharwal had, however, strongly denied any > wrongdoing on his part or on the part of his two sons, in the media. > > The document (press release), is reproduced verbatim, issued by Campaign for > Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR), on Wednesday: > > Justice Sabharwal finally broke his silence in a signed piece in the Times > of India. His defence proceeds by ignoring and sidestepping the inconvenient > and emphasizing the irrelevant if it can evoke sympathy. To examine the > adequacy of his defence, we need to see his defence against the gravamen of > each charge against him. > > *Charge No. 1:* That his son's companies had shifted their registered > offices to his official residence. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That as soon as he came to know he ordered > his son's to shift it back. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* This is False. In April 2007, in a recorded interview > with the Midday reporter MK Tayal he feigned total ignorance of the shifting > of the offices to his official residence. Copy of the CD containing the said > conversation is attached hereto as Annexure I. In fact, the registered > offices were shifted back from his official residence to his Punjabi Bagh > residence exactly on the day that the BPTP mall developers became his sons' > partners, making it very risky to continue at his official residence. Copies > of the document showing the date of induction of Kabul Chawla, the promoter > and owner of BPTP in Pawan Impex Pvt. Ltd., one of the companies of Jutstice > Sabharwal's sons, and Form no. 18 showing the shifting of the registered > office from the official residence of Justice Sabharwal to his family > residence on 23rd October 2004 are attached hereto as Annexure II (Colly). > > *Charge No. 2:* That he called for and dealt with the sealing of commercial > property case in March 2005, though it was not assigned to him. It is only > the Chief Justice who can assign pending cases to various judges. He was not > the CJI at that time. Copy of the order dated 17th March 2005 is attached > hereto as Annexure III. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* Justice Sabharwal does not answer this > charge. > > *Charge No. 3:* That he did this exactly around the time that his sons got > into partnerships with Mall and commercial complex developers, who stood to > benefit from his sealing orders. The chain of events is as follows: > > On 23rd October 2004, Kabul Chawla, the promoter of one of the biggest > developers of shopping malls and commercial complexes, was inducted in Pawan > Impex as a 50% shareholder and Director. On 12.02.2005, Kabul Chawla's wife, > Anjali Chawla was also inducted as Director of Pawan Impex. On 17th March > 2005, Justice Sabharwal ordered that the case dealing with the sealing of > commercial establishments should also be heard along with the writ of M.C. > Mehta, which was being heard by him. On 8th April 2005, Chetan Sabharwal and > Nitin Sabharwal, two sons of Justice Sabharwal, set up another company, > Harpawan Constructors, with the object of constructing Commercial complexes. > On 25th October 2005, Purshottam Bagheria, one of the big builders on > shopping malls and commercial complexes of Delhi was inducted as a partner > in Harpwan Construtors. On 16th Februrary 2006, Justice Y. K. Sabharwal, who > by that time had become the Chief Justice of India, passed a detailed order > in the aforementioned case setting into motion the demolition and sealing in > Delhi. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That they were his sons friends. That > Harpawan Constructors, which was set up by his sons with the Mall developer > Purshottam Bagheria did not do any business. In fact the courts under him > got Bagheria's 1 MG road mall demolished. That his sons are not developing > shopping malls but only an IT Park. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* If so many Mall and commercial complex developers were > his sons' close friends, then he should not have dealt with the case anyway > since that creates an immediate conflict of interest. Moreover, why should > they go into partnership with these developers who stood to benefit from > Justice Sabharwal's orders, and that too exactly at the time when he seizes > control of the sealing of commercial property case and starts dealing with > it. He says that the company set up by his sons in partnership with Bagheria > has not done any business. If so, why was this new company set up for > developing commercial complexes in partnership with this builder? In an > interview with ZNews Justice Sabhawal claims credit for the judiciary under > him ordering the demolition of the illegal 1 MG road mall owned by Bagheria. > But then why do his sons enter into partnerships with such an illegal > builder whose buildings have had to be demolished by the Judiciary? And > immediately after this partnership with the Sabharwals, Bagheria went on to > announce the construction of "Square 1 mall" in Saket as the most > fashionable mall in India. And all the fashion designers who had their shops > and outlets at 1 MG road went on to buy space in the Square I mall. What is > important to note here is that Bagheria and his partners at 1 MG road had > already parted with all the space on 1 MG Road. The demolition thus hurt the > designers and others who had bought shops there, but did not hurt Bagheria > who may have in fact benefited from it by clearing the land of his tenants > and getting them to buy space at his new malls at Saket and elsewhere. > An IT park is also a commercial complex like any other. Many commercial > establishments sealed were IT centres and BPOs, which were forced to buy > space in, IT parks like that being constructed by his sons and their > partners. > > *Charge No. 4:* That the Union Bank of India gave a loan of 28 crores to his > sons' company Pavan Impex on a collateral of plant and machinery and other > moveables at the site of their proposed IT Park, which were non-existent. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response*: That his sons' had a credit facility of 75 > crores. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* If that were the case, what was the need for mortgaging > non-existent assets for obtaining this loan? Moreover, the Banks' senior > manager is on record saying that the loan was given on the basis of > projected sales to prospective customers. The conversation with the Bank > Manager is in the CD attached hereto as Annexure I. > > *Charge No. 5:* That because of the obvious conflict of interest, he could > not have dealt with this case. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That his orders have never benefited his > sons. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* His orders of sealing lakhs of commercial properties > clearly forced those establishments to buy or rent space in commercial > complexes like those that his sons' companies were constructing; and > shopping malls etc that their friends and partners were constructing. There > was a clear conflict of interest and his orders have clearly benefited his > sons and their partners. > > *Charge No. 6:* That a large number of industrial and commercial plots were > allotted in Noida by the UP government to his sons' companies, at prices far > below the market price. In particular several huge plots were allotted > between December 2004 and November 2006 by the Mulayam Singh/Amar Singh > government, while he was dealing with Amar Singh's tapes case, and had > stayed the publication of those tapes on the behest of Amar Singh. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That some of the plots were allotted by > earlier different governments. That the prices were not far below the market > price. That the allotments were made in the normal course to his sons who > were entrepreneurs and were providing employment to hundreds of people in > Noida. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* Even if one were to look at only the last two > allotments of 12,000 metres each made in December 2004 and November 2006, > made by the Mulayam Singh/Amar Singh governments, it is obvious that the > allotments are definitely not in the normal course. Consider the allotment > to Pawan Impex. The company has Nil turnover and Nil business (as declared > in their application) on the date of application on 30/12/04. The very next > day they receive a letter from Noida Authority asking them to come for an > interview within 4 days on 5/11/04. On that day the authority notes that > they want 12,000 sq m in Sector 125 or Sector 132. The minutes note that > because the work of development of Sector 125 is not complete and because in > sector 132 the plot size available is only upto 11,000 sq metres, the matter > is deferred for the next meeting. In the next meeting on 13/12/04, though > Sector 125 is still not developed, a decision is taken to allot them a > 12,000 Sq. metre plot in Sector 125 for a BPO. All this without a word about > how and why a company with nil business is worthy of being allotted one of > the largest plots of 12,000 sq. meters. The previous application of M/s > Softedge Solutions Pvt. Ltd for an IT park is rejected on the ground that > they could not satisfactorily answer questions about their previous > experience in IT and their technical tie up. But Pawan Impex represented by > Chetan Sabharwal with Nil business, no previous track record in IT and no > technical tie up sails through with no questions asked. All in the normal > course, of course! Copies of the profit and loss accounts of Pawan Impex > Pvt. Ltd. for the year ended 31.03.2003 and 31.03.2004 showing its income > nil are attached hereto as Annexure IV (Colly). Justice Sabharwal says that > the allotment price of Rs. 3,700/sq M was not below the market price. The > current circle rate in Sector 125 is Rs. 11,000/sq metre and the market > price is over Rs. 30,000/sq meter there. > > Similarly, the huge plot of 3 acres, No. 12 A in Sector 68 alloted to Sabs > Exports in November 2006 at a throw away price of Rs. 4000 per square meter > is also not in the normal course and was similarly made within days of > application and a bogus interview, without any other system. Today, within > 10 months of allotment, even the circle rate of plots in Sector 68 is Rs. > 8,000 per sq. meter and the market rate is Rs. 20-22,000 per sq. meter. > Moreover this allotment has been made at a time when he was dealing with > Amar Singh's tapes case and had stayed the publication of the tapes. > > *Charge No. 7:* That his sons have purchased a 1150 square meter house in > Maharani bagh, New Delhi in March 2007 for a consideration of 15.46 crores. > The source of money for this is unexplained and in the sale deed they seek > to conceal their relationship with Justice Sabharwal by writing his name as > Yogesh Kumar and giving their factory address instead of the residential > address. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That 90 per cent of the money for the > purchase of this house was from four banks; that his sons concealed his full > name in the sale deed in order to avoid taking advantage of their > association with him. > * * > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* Banks do not normally advance loans of 90% of the value > of a property on its security. Otherwise they would end up holding > inadequate security if the property prices fall by even 15%. If they have > done so in this case, it is either because of an undue favour as in the case > of the loan of 28 Crores to Pawan Impex, or they valued the property higher > than the declared purchase price. His explanation for concealing his name in > the sale deed is hilarious and unbelievable since his sons did not hesitate > to use his official residence as the registered office of their companies. > Moreover, this was in a registered sale deed with a private party, where > there was no occasion for taking any advantage by using his name. From debjanisgupta at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 10:35:30 2007 From: debjanisgupta at yahoo.com (debjani sengupta) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 131(re:Tarapada Roy) In-Reply-To: <1944bc230709200130p28349d10k5787ca797dabdf0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <750728.22767.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> dear atreyee, i have very little idea if the bangla poems of tarapada roy can be found on the web. mainly because he is not so well known outside bengal. poems of dislocation and exile have been written by samar sen, buddhadev basu, nirendranath chakraborty etc. the most famous of the bangla poets with an east bengal root is of course jibanananda das who has brilliant poems on the city of calcutta. the green passport poem can be found in a volume called 'ei kolkata kobitar' edited by sibaprasad samaddar. you can also check asrukumar sikdar's 'bhanga bangla o bangla sahityo'. warm regards, debjani --- atreyee majumder wrote: > Dear Debjani and Swadhin, > > Can you forward any links on the web where I can > find Tarapada's work in > Bangla, especially the Green Passport poem and > others relating to partition > and dislocated lives in Calcutta. I know that a > number of contemporary > Bangla poets have East Bengal roots, but haven't > come across such poetry of > narratives of dislocation. Who are other poets of > 60s and the 70s who have > written in a similar genre? > > That Green Passport is particularly moving, am quite > anxious to read it in > Bangla. Would be most grateful if you can help me > find it. > > Thanks > > Atreyee > > On 9/20/07, reader-list-request at sarai.net > > wrote: > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide > Web, visit > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Hello (we wi) > > 2. Fwd: [Medianthro] Call for Papers: Exploring > New Media Worlds > > (Britta Ohm) > > 3. Re: tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? (Swadhin > Sen) > > 4. Re: tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? (debjani > sengupta) > > 5. [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 19-09 > to 3-10-2007 > > (xavier cahen) > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:24:18 -0700 (PDT) > > From: we wi > > Subject: [Reader-list] Hello > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Message-ID: > <168656.17820.qm at web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Dear All, > > > > What happened? All of sudden big silence? > Seems everybody become > work holic at home/office/own business at both sides > of the globe? > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! > Search. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:35:52 +0200 > > From: Britta Ohm > > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [Medianthro] Call for > Papers: Exploring > > New Media Worlds > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Message-ID: > <199fa5b701e0cb65d15ba5aaffb52cb3 at zedat.fu-berlin.de> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > For those interested. > > Best -- Britta > > > > Anfang der weitergeleiteten E-Mail: > > > > > Von: "Rothenbuhler, Eric" > > > > Datum: 19. September 2007 17:43:05 MESZ > > > An: > > > Betreff: [Medianthro] Call for Papers: > Exploring New Media Worlds > > > > > > Greetings Friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is the Call for Papers and Proposals for > our conference, Exploring > > > New Media Worlds, to be held here at Texas A&M > University (College > > > Station, Texas, US), February 29 to March 2, > 2008. For your > > > convenience > > > I have both attached it and cut and pasted a > copy below. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope you will plan to participate. It should > be a very interesting > > > conference and we will do our best to host you > all for a lovely time. > > > Please send us a paper or proposal soon or at > least before November 20. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please pass the Call on to any and all > interested colleagues and > > > students. Please post it in a prominent place. > Note that NCA has > > > provided funds for grants to aid graduate > student travel; information > > > about how to apply is on our webpage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please see the webpage at > http://comm.tamu.edu/mediaworlds/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Questions or comments to me at > Rothenbuhler at tamu.edu or the conference > > > email at mediaworlds at libarts.tamu.edu. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you much and see you soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric W. Rothenbuhler > > > > > > Professor of Communication > > > > > > Texas A&M University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exploring New Media Worlds: > > > > > > > > > > > > Changing Technologies, Industries, Cultures, and > Audiences > > > > > > in Global and Historical Context > > > > > > > > > > > > An international conference hosted by > > > > > > Texas A&M University, February 29 to March 2, > 2008 > > > > > > > > > > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 10:48:23 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:48:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rama as a kudikaran Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709202218l3387c541r43eec81cd16ea880@mail.gmail.com> No words from the elite intellectuals [ VASP ] ....not even a condemnation ! http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE920070920132940&Headline=Valmiki+said+Ram+was+a+drunkard:+Karunanidhi&Title=Chennai&Topic=0 From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 16:04:29 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 03:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The exclusive description about Sripura or Srinagar Message-ID: <686695.88269.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All, I would like to bring you a delightful description about Srinagar described long back. This stotra (hymn which praises) occurs in Brahmanda purana in the Chapter on discussion between Hayagreeva and Agasthya.Hayagreeva is an incarnation of Vishnu with the horse head and is believed to be the storehouse of knowledge. Agasthya is one of the great sages of yore who is one of the stars of the constellation great bear. At his request Hayagreeva taught him the most holy 1000 names of Lalitha . Parama shiva is one of the trinity of Hindu pantheons who is in charge of destruction. He married Sathi , the daughter of Daksha. Daksha and Paramashiva were not getting on well and consequently he did not invite Paramashiva for one of the great fire sacrifices that he conducted. However Sathi went to attend the function in spite of Paramashiva’s protest. Daksha insulted her husband and she jumped in to the fire and ended her life. Consequently at the behest Of Paramashiva Daksha was killed and later given life with a goat’s head. However this incident upset Paramashiva and he entered into deep meditation.Sathi took birth as the daughter of the mountain(Parvathy) Himalayas and started doing penance on Shiva for getting him as her husband. The devas faced a very great enemy in Sura Padma who had a boon that he could be killed only by a son of Shiva and Parvathy. So to wake Shiva from his deep meditation the devas deputed Manmatha , the God of love who shot his flower arrows at Paramashiva. Paramashiva woke up and opened his third eye and burnt the God of love into ashes. The Devas and Rathi Devi the wife of Manmatha requested Paramashiva to give life to Manmatha. Heeding for their request Paramashiva stared at the ashes of Manmatha.From the ashes came Bhandasura Who made all the world as impotent and ruled from the city called Shonitha pura.He started troubling the devas.The devas then sought the advice of Sage Narada who advised them to conduct a fire sacrifice. From the fire rose Sri Lalitha Tripura Sundari. She was extremely beautiful, She was given in marriage to Lord Kameshwara and made to stay in Sree Nagara at the top of Maha Meru Mountain. Sree nagara had 25 streets circling it. They are made of iron, steel, copper, lead, alloy made of five metals, silver, gold, the white Pushpa raga stone, the red Padmaraga stone. Onyx, diamond, Vaidoorya, Indra neela (topaz), pearl, Marakatha, coral, nine gems and mixture of gems and precious stones. In the eighth street was the forest of Kadambas. This is presided by Syamala. In the fifteenth street live the Ashta Digh palakas.In the sixteenth lives Varahi alias Dandini who is her commander in chief. Here Syamala also has a house. In the seventeenth street live the different Yoginis.In the eighteenth street lives Maha Vishnu.In the nineteenth street lives Esana, in the twentieth Thara Devi, twenty first Varuni , the twenty second Kurukulla who presides over the fort of pride, twenty third Marthanda Bhairawa, twenty fourth the moon and twenty fifth Manmatha presiding over the forest of love. In the center of Srinagara is the Maha Padma Vana(The great lotus forest) and within it the Chintamani Griha (The house of holy thought),In its north east is the Chid agni kunda and on both sides of its eastern gate are the houses of Manthrini and Dhandini.On its four gates stand the Chaduramnaya gods for watch and ward. And within it is the Sri chakra.In the center of Sri Chakra on the throne of Pancha brahmas on the Bindu Peeta(dot plank) called sarvanandamaya(universal happiness) Sits Maha Tripura Sundari.In the Sri Chakra are the following decorations viz., The square called Trilokya mohanam(most beautiful in the three worlds), The sixteen petalled lotus called Sarvasa paripoorakam(fulfiller of all desires), the eight petalled lotus called Sarvasamksopanam(the all cleanser), the sixteen corner figure called Sarva sowbagyam(all luck),the external ten cornered figure called Sarvartha sadhakam (giver of all assets), the internal ten cornered figure called Sarva raksha karam(All protector), the eight cornered figure called Sarva roka haram(cure of all diseases), triangle called Sarva siddhi pradam(giver of all powers) and the dot called Sarvananda mayam(all pleasures). The devas prayed her to kill Bhandasura..When she started for the war with Bandasura, she was accompanied by the powers called anima, mahima etc, Brahmi, Kaumari, Vaishnavi, Varahi, Mahendri, Chamundi, Maha Lakshmi, , Nitya Devaths and Avarna Devathas who occupy the Sri Chakra.While Sampatkari devi was the captain of the elephant regiment, Aswarooda devi was the captain of the cavalry.The army was commanded by Dhandini riding on the Charriot called Giri Chakra assisted by Manthrini riding on the chariot called Geya Chakra..Jwala malini protected the army by creating a fire ring around it.ParaShakthi rode in the center on the chariot of Sri Chakra.Nithya Devi destroyed a large chunk of Bandasura’s armies , Bala Devi killed the son of Bandasura, and Manthrini and Dhandini killed his brothers called Vishanga and Vishukra.When the Asuras created blockade for the marching army, Sri Lalitha Tripura sundari created Ganesha with the help of Kameshwara to remove the blockade.Then Bandasura created the asuras called Hiranyaksha, Hiranya Kasipu and Ravana.The Devi created the ten avatars of Vishnu and destroyed them. She killed all his army using Pasupathastra and killed him with Kameshwarasthra.The gods then praised her.She then recreated Manmatha for the good of the world. This story is contained in the first 84 names of the first 34 slokas of Lalitha Sahasra nama .and all together contains one thousand names. This is also called the Rahasya Nama Sahasra(the thousand secret names).Reading it , meditating on the meaning of the names would lead to the fulfillment of all the wishes of the devotees. 1 Srimatha Mother who gives immeasurable wealth who removes all sorrows and gives only happiness.-indicates also her role of creation 2 Sri maharajni She who is the empress who takes care of the universe- indicates her role of protection 3 Sri math simasaneshwari She who sits on the throne of lions-indicates her role of destruction 4 Chidagni Kunda Sambootha She who rose from the fire of knowledge and is the ultimate truth 5 Deva karya samudhyatha She who is interested in helping devas 6 Udyath bhanu sahasrabha She who glitters like thousand rising suns 7 Chadur bahu samanvidha She who has four arms 8 Ragha Swaroopa pasadya She who has love for all in the form of rope(pasa)-She has this in one of her left hands 9 Krodhakarankusojwala She who glitters and has anger in the form of Anghusa –in one of her right hands. 10 Mano Rupeshu Kodanda She who has the bow of sweet cane which is her mind-in one of her left hands 11 Pancha than mathra sayaka She who has five bows of touch , smell, hearing, taste and sight 12 Nijaruna prabha poora majjath brahmanda mandala She who makes all the universe immerse in her red colour which is like the sun in the dawn 13 Champakasoka –punnaga-sowgandhika- lasath kacha She who wears in her hair flowers like Champaka, Punnaga and Sowgandhika 14 Kuru vinda mani –sreni-kanath kotira manditha She whose crown glitters with rows of inlaid precious stones (Padmaraga stones) 15 Ashtami chandra vibhraja –dhalika sthala shobhitha She who has a beautiful forehead like the half moon (visible on eighth day from new moon) 16 Muka chandra kalankabha mriganabhi viseshaka She who has the thilaka(dot) of Musk in her forehead which is like the black shadow in the moon 17 Vadana smara mangalya griha thorana chillaka She who has beautiful eyelids which look like the ornaments to her face which is like cupids home 18 Vakthra lakshmi –parivaha-chalan meenabha lochana She who has beautiful eyes which look like fish in the pond of her face 19 Nava champaka –pushpabha-nasa dhanda virajitha She who has nose like freshly opened flowers of Champaka 20 Thara kanthi thiraskari nasabharana bhasura She who has a nose ring which shines more than the star 21 Kadambha manjari kluptha karna poora manohara She who has beautiful ears like the kadamba flowers 22 Thadanga yugali bhootha thapanodupa mandala She who wears the sun and the moon as her ear studs 23 Padma raga sila darsha paribhavika polabhu She who has cheeks which shine more than the mirror made of Padmaraga 24 Nava vidhruma bimbha sri nyakkari rathna chhadha She whose lips are like beautiful new corals 25 Shuddha vidyangurakara dwija pangthi dwayojjala She who has teeth which look like germinated true knowledge(Shodasakshari vidya) 26 Karpoora Veedi Kamodha Samakarsha digandara She who chews betel leaf with the spices which give perfume in all directions 27 Nija Sallabha Madhurya Vinirbhardista Kacchabhi She who has voice sweeter than the notes produced by Sarawathi Devis Veena(This is called Kachabhi) 28 Mandasmitha prabha poora majjat Kamesha manasa She who has lovely smile which is like the river in which the mind of cupid plays 29 Anakalidha Sadrushya Chibuka sri virajitha She who has a beautiful chin which has nothing else to compare 30 Kamesha baddha mangalya sutra shobitha kandhara She who shines with the sacred thread in her neck tied by Lord Kameshwara 31 Kankangadha Keyura Kamaniya Bujanvidha She who wears golden Armlets 32 Rathna graiveya chinthaka lola muktha phalanvitha She who wears necklace with moving pearls and dollar inlaid with gems 33 Kameswara prema rathna mani prathi pana sthani She who gave her breasts which are like the pot made of Rathna(precious stones) and has obtained the love of Kameshwara 34 Nabhyala vala Romali latha phala kucha dwayi She who has two breasts that are like fruits borne on the creeper of tiny hairs raising from her belly. 35 Lakshya roma latha dharatha samunneya madhyama She who is suspected to have a waist because of the creeper like hairs raising from there 36 Sthana bhara dalan Madhya patta bhandha valithraya She who has three stripes in her belly which looks like having been created to protect her tiny waist from her heavy breasts 37 Arunaruna kausumba vasthra bhaswat kati thati She who shines in her light reddish silk cloth worn over her tiny waist 38 Rathna kinkinika ramya rasana dhama bhooshitha She who wears a golden thread below her waist decorated with bells made of precious stones 39 Kamesha gnatha sowbhagya mardworu dwayanvitha She who has pretty and tender thighs known only to her consort, Kameshwara 40 Manikhya mukuta kara janu dwaya virajitha She who has knee joints like the crown made of manikya below her thighs 41 Indra kopa parikshiptha smarathunabha jangika She who has forelegs like the cupids case of arrows followed by the bee called Indra kopa 42 Kooda Gulpha She who has round ankles 43 Koorma prashta jayishnu prapadanvidha She who has upper feet like the back of the tortoise 44 Nakadhi dhithi samchanna namajjana thamoguna She who removes the darkness in the mind of her devotees by the sparkle of nails 45 Pada dwaya Prabha jala parakrutha saroruha She who has two feet which are much more beautiful than lotus flowers 46 Sinchana mani manjira manditha sri pamambuja She who has feet wearing musical anklets filled with gem stones 47 Marali Mandha Gamana She who has the slow gait like the swan 48 Maha Lavanya Sewadhi She who has the store house of supreme beauty 49 Sarvaruna She who has light reddish colour of the dawn in all her aspects 50 Anavadhyangi She who has most beautiful limbs which do not lack any aspect of beauty 51 Srvabharana Bhooshita She who wears all the ornaments 52 Shivakameswarangastha She who sits on the lap of Kameswara(shiva) 53 Shiva She who is the personification of Shiva 54 Swadheena Vallabha She whose husband obeys her 55 Summeru Madhya sringastha She who lives in the central peak of Mount Meru 56 Sriman nagara nayika She who is the chief of Srinagara(a town) 57 Chinthamani grihanthastha She who lives in the all wish full filling house 58 Pancha brahmasana sthitha She who sits on the five brahmas viz., Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Esana and Sadashiva 59 Maha padma davi samstha She who lives in the forest of lotus flowers 60 Kadambha vana vasini She who lives in the forest of Kadmbha (Madurai city is also called Kadambha vana) 61 Sudha sagara madhyastha She who lives in the middle of the sea of nectar 62 Kamakshi She who fulfills desires by her sight 63 Kamadhayini She who gives what is desired 64 Devarshi Gana-sangatha-stuyamanathma-vaibhava She who has all the qualities fit to be worshipped by sages and devas 65 Bhandasura vadodyuktha shakthi sena samavitha She who is surrounded by army set ready to kill Bandasura 66 Sampathkari samarooda sindhoora vrija sevitha She who is surrounded by Sampathkari (that which gives wealth) elephant brigade 67 Aswaroodadishidaswa kodi kodi biravrutha She who is surrounded by crores of cavalry of horses 68 Chakra raja ratha rooda sarvayudha parishkridha She who is fully armed and rides in the Srichakra chariot with nine stories 69 Geya chakra ratha rooda manthrini pari sevitha She who rides in the chariot with seven stories and is served by manthrini who is the goddess of music 70 Giri chakra ratharooda dhanda natha puraskrutha She who rides in the chariot with five stories and is served by goddess Varahi otherwise called Dhanda natha 71 Jwalimalika ksiptha vanhi prakara madhyaka She who is in the middle of the fort of fire built by the Goddess Jwalamalini 72 Bhanda sainya vadodyuktha shakthi vikrama harshitha She who was pleased by the various Shakthis(literally strength but a goddess) who helped in killing the army of Bhandasura 73 Nithya parakamatopa nireekshana samutsuka She who is interested and happy in observing the valour of Nithya devathas (literally goddess of every day) 74 Banda puthra vadodyuktha bala vikrama nandhita She who was pleased by the valour of Bala devi(her daughter) in destroying the sons of Banda 75 Manthrinyamba virachitha vishangavatha Doshitha She who became happy at seeing Goddess Manthrini kill Vishanga(this ogre (brother of Banda) represents our desires for physical things) 76 Vishuka prana harana varahi veeerya nandhitha She who appreciates the valour of Varahi in killing Vishuka (another brother of Banda-he is personification of ignorance) 77 Kameshwara mukaloka kalpitha sri Ganeshwara She who created God Ganesh by the mere look of the face of her Lord , Kameshwara 78 Mahaganesha nirbhinna vignayanthra praharshitha She who became happy at seeing Lord Ganesha destroy the Vigna Yanthra (contraption meant to delay ) created by Vishuka 79 Banda surendra nirmuktha sashtra prathyasthra varshani She who rained arrows and replied with arrows against Bandasura 80 Karanguli nakhothpanna narayana dasakrithi She who created the ten avatharas of Narayana from the tip of her nails (when Bandasura send the Sarvasura asthra (arrow), she destroyed it by creating the ten avatharas of Vishnu) 81 Maha pasupathasthragni nirdagdhasura sainika She who destroyed the army of asuras by the Maha pasupatha arrow. 82 Kameshwarasthra nirdhagdha sabandasura sunyaka She who destroyed Bandasura and his city called sunyaka by the Kameshwara arrow. 83 Brhmopendra mahendradhi deva samsthutha vaibhava She who is prayed by Lord Brahma , Vishnu, indra and other devas 84 Hara nethragni sandhagdha kama sanjeevanoushadhi She who brought back to life the God of love Manmatha who was burnt to ashes by the fire from the eyes of Shiva 85 Sri vagbhave koodaiga swaroopa mukha pankaja She whose lotus face is Vagnhava Koota 86 Kantatha kadi paryantha Madhya koodaiga swaroopini She whose portion from neck to hips is Madya koota 87 Sakthi koodaiga thapanna Kadyatho bhaga dharini She whose portion below hips is the Shakthi koota 88 Moola manthrathmikha She who is the meaning of Moola manthra (root manthra) or She who is the cause 89 Moola kooda thraya kalebhara She whose body is the three parts of the basic manthra i.e. pancha dasakshari manthra 90 Kulamruthaika rasika She who enjoys the ecstatic state of oneness of one who sees, sight and what is seen or She who gets pleasure in drinking the nectar flowing from the thousand petalled lotus below the brain. 91 Kula sanketha palini She who protects the powerful truths from falling into unsuitable people 92 Kulangana She who is a lady belonging to cultured family or She who is like Srividya known only to one whom it belongs 93 Kulanthastha She who is fit to be worshipped any where 94 Kaulini She who is the unification of the principles of Shiva and Shakthi 95 Kula yogini She who is related to the family or She who is related to the ultimate knowledge 96 Akula She who is beyond kula or She who is beyond any knowledge 97 Samayanthastha She who is within the mental worship of Shiva and Shakthi 98 Samayachara that para She who likes Samayachara i.e. worship stepwise from mooladhara Chakra 99 Moladharaika nilaya She who exists in Mooladhara In Mooladhara which is in the form of four petalled lotus the kundalini sleeps. 100 Brhama Grandhi Vibhedini She who breaks the tie in Brahma grandhi i.e she who helps us to cross the ties due to our birth. 101 Mani poorantharudhitha She who exists in Mani pooraka chakra full dressed in her fineries 102 Vishnu grandhi vibedhini She who breaks the ties of Vishnu grandhi i.e she who helps us cross the ties due to our position. 103 Agna chakarantharalastha She who lives in between two eye lids in the form of she who orders 104 Rudra grandhi vibhedini She who breaks the ties of Rudra grandhi i.e she who helps us cross the ties due to our violent thoughts and nature 105 Sahararambhujarooda She who has climbed sahasrara the thousand petalled lotus which is the point of ultimate awakening 106 Sudha sarabhi varshini She who makes nectar flow in all our nerves from sahasrara i.e. she who gives the very pleasant experience of the ultimate 107 Thadillatha samaruchya She who shines like the streak of lightning 108 Shad chakropari samshitha She who is on the top of six wheels starting from mooladhara 109 Maha ssakthya She who likes worship by her devotees 110 Kundalini She who is in the form of Kundalini ( a form which is a snake hissing and exists in mooladhara) 111 Bisa thanthu thaniyasi She who is as thin as the thread from lotus 112 Bhavani She who gives life to the routine life of human beings or She who is the consort of Lord Shiva 113 Bhavana gamya She who can be attained by thinking 114 Bhavarany kudariga She who is like the axe used to cut the miserable life of the world 115 Bhadra priya She who is interested in doing good to her devotees 116 Bhadra moorthy She who is personification of all that is good 117 Bhaktha sowbhagya dhayini She who gives all good and luck to her devotees 118 Bhakthi priya She who likes devotion to her 119 Bhakthi gamya She who can be reached by devotion 120 Bhakthi vasya She who can be controlled by devotion 121 Bhayapaha She who removes fear 122 Sambhavya She who is married to Shambhu 123 Saradharadya She who is to be worshipped during Navarathri celebrated during autumn 124 Sarvani She who is the consort of Lord Shiva in the form of Sarvar 125 Sarmadhayini She who gives pleasures 126 Sankari She who is the consort of Sankara 127 Sreekari She who gives all forms of wealth and happiness 128 Sadhwi She who is eternally devoted to her husband 129 Sarat chandra nibhanana She who has the face like moon in the autumn 130 Satho dhari She who has a thin belly 131 Santhimathi She who is peace personified 132 Niradhara She who does not need any support to herself 133 Niranjana She who is devoid of any blemishes or scars 134 Nirlepa She who does not have any attachment 135 Nirmala She who is personification of clarity or She who is devoid of any dirt 136 Nithya She who is permanently stable 137 Nirakara She who does not have any shape 138 Nirakula She who cannot be attained by confused people 139 Nirguna She who is beyond any characteristics 140 Nishkala She who is not divided 141 Santha She who is peace 142 Nishkama She who does not have any desires 143 Niruppallava She who is never destroyed 144 Nithya muktha She who is forever free of the ties of the world 145 Nirvikara She never undergoes alteration 146 Nishprapancha She who is beyond this world 147 Nirasraya She who does not need support 148 Nithya shuddha She who is forever clean 149 Nithya bhuddha She who is for ever knowledge 150 Niravadhya She who can never be accused 151 Niranthara She who is forever continuous 152 Nishkarana She who does not have cause 153 Nishkalanka She who does not have blemishes 154 Nirupadhi She who does not have basis 155 Nireeswara She who does not have any one controlling her 156 Neeraga She who does not have any desires 157 Ragha madhani She who removes desires from us 158 Nirmadha She who does not have any firm beliefs 159 Madhanasini She who destroys beliefs 160 Nischintha She who is not worried 161 Nirahankara She who does not have an ego 162 Nirmoha She who does not have any passion 163 Mohanasini She who destroys passion 164 Nirmama She who does not have selfish feelings 165 Mamatha hanthri She who destroys selfishness 166 Nishpapa She who does not have any sin 167 Papa nashini She who destroys sin 168 Nishkrodha She who is devoid of anger 169 Krodha –samani She who destroys anger 170 Nir Lobha She who is not miserly 171 Lobha nasini She who removes miserliness 172 Nissamsaya She who does not have any doubts 173 Samsayagni She who clears doubts 174 Nirbhava She who does not have another birth 175 Bhava nasini She who helps us not have another birth 176 Nirvikalpa She who does not do anything she does not desire 177 Nirabhadha She who is not affected by anything 178 Nirbhedha She who does not have any difference 179 Bhedha nasini She who promotes oneness 180 Nirnasa She who does not die 181 Mrityu madhani She who removes fear of death 182 Nishkriya She who does not have any work 183 Nishparigraha She who does not accept help from others 184 Nisthula She who does not have anything to be compared to 185 Neela chikura She who has dark black hair 186 Nirapaya She who is never destroyed 187 Nirathyaya She who does not cross limits of rules she herself created 188 Dhurlabha She who is difficult to obtain 189 Dhurgama She who can not be neared easily 190 Dhurga She who is Dhurga who is a nine year old girl 191 Dhuka hanthri She who removes sorrows 192 Sukha prada She who gives pleasures and happiness 193 Dushta doora She who keeps far away from evil men 194 Durachara samani She who destroys evil practices 195 Dosha varjitha She who does not have anything bad 196 Sarvangna She who knows everything 197 Saandra karuna She who is full of mercy 198 Samanadhika varjitha She who is incomparable 199 Sarva shakthi mayi She who has personification of all strengths 200 Sarva mangala She who is personification of all that is good 201 Sad gathi prada She who gives us good path 202 Sarveshwari She who is goddess of all 203 Sarva mayi She who is everywhere 204 Sarva manthra swaroopini She who is personification of all manthras 205 Sarva yanthrathmika She who is represented by all yantras(Talisman) 206 Sarva thanthra roopa She who is also goddess of all Thanthras which is a method of worship 207 Manonmani She who is the result of mental thoughts of thoughts and actions 208 Maaheswari She who is the consort of Maheswara (Lord of everything) 209 Mahaa devi She who is the consort of Mahe Deva(God of all gods) 210 Maha lakshmi She who takes the form of Mahalaksmi, the goddess of wealth 211 Mrida priya She who is dear to Mrida (a name of Lord Shiva) 212 Maha roopa She who is very big 213 Maha poojya She who is fit to be worshipped by great people 214 Maha pathaka nasini She who destroys the major misdemeanors 215 Maha maya She who is the great illusion 216 Maha sathva She who is greatly knowledgeable 217 Maha sakthi She who is very strong 218 Maha rathi She who gives great happiness 219 Maha bhoga She who enjoys great pleasures 220 Mahaiswarya She who has great wealth 221 Maha veerya She who has great valour 222 Maha bala She who is very strong 223 Maha bhudhi She who is very intelligent 224 Maha sidhi She who has great super natural powers 225 Maha yogeswareswari She who is goddess of great yogis 226 Mahathanthra She who has the greatest Thantra sasthras 227 Mahamanthra She who has the greatest manthras 228 Mahayanthra She who has the greatest yanthras 229 Mahasana She who has the greatest seat 230 Maha yaga kramaradhya She who should be worshipped by performing great sacrifices( Bhavana yaga and Chidagni Kunda yaga) 231 Maha bhairava poojitha She who is being worshipped by the great Bhairava 232 Maheswara Mahakalpa Maha thandava sakshini She who will be the witness to the great dance to be performed by the great lord at the end of the worlds 233 Maha kamesha mahishi She who is the prime consort of the great Kameshwara 234 Maha tripura sundari She who is the beauty of the three great cities 235 Chatustatyupacharadya She who should be worshipped with sixty four offerings 236 Chathu sashti kala mayi She who has sixty four sections 237 Maha Chathusashti kodi yogini gana sevitha She who is being worshipped by the sixty four crore yoginis in the nine different charkas 238 Manu Vidya She who is personification of Sri Vidya as expounded by Manu 239 Chandra Vidya She who is personification of Sri Vidya as expounded by Moon 240 Chandra mandala Madhyaga She who is in the center of the universe around the moon 241 Charu Roopa She who is very beautiful 242 Charu Hasa She who has a beautiful smile 243 Charu Chandra Kaladhara She who wears the beautiful crescent 244 Charachara Jagannatha She who is the Lord of all moving and immobile things 245 Chakra Raja Nikethana She who lives in the middle of Sree Chakra 246 Parvathi She who is the daughter of the mountain 247 Padma nayana She who has eyes like the lotus 248 Padma raga samaprabha She who shines as much as the Padma Raga jewel 249 Pancha prethasana seena She who sits on the seat of five dead bodies ( these are Brahma , Vishnu, Rudra, Eesa and Sadasiva without their Shakthi(consort)) 250 Pancha brahma swaroopini She who is personification of five brahmas ( they are the gods mentioned in the last name with their Shakthi) 251 Chinmayi She who is the personification action in every thing 252 Paramananda She who is supremely happy 253 Vignana Gana Roopini She who is the personification of knowledge based on science 254 Dhyana Dhyathru dhyeya roopa She who is personification of meditation, the being who meditates and what is being meditated upon 255 Dharmadhrama vivarjitha She who is beyond Dharma (justice) and Adharma(injustice) 256 Viswa roopa She who has the form of the universe 257 Jagarini She who is always awake 258 Swapanthi She who is always in the state of dream 259 Thaijasathmika She who is the form of Thaijasa which is microbial concept 260 Suptha She who is in deep sleep 261 Prangnathmika She who is awake 262 Thurya She who is in trance 263 Sarvavastha vivarjitha She who is above all states 264 Srishti karthri She who creates 265 Brahma roopa She who is the personification of ultimate 266 Gopthri She who saves 267 Govinda roopini She who is of the form of Govinda 268 Samharini She who destroys 269 Rudhra roopa She who is of the form of Rudhra 270 Thirodhana kari She who hides herself from us 271 Eeswari She who is of the form of easwara 272 Sadashivaa She who is of the form of Sadashiva 273 Anugrahada She who blesses 274 Pancha krithya parayana She who is engaged in the five duties of creation, existence, dissolving, disappearing, and blessing 275 Bhanu mandala madhyastha She who is in the middle of the sun’s universe 276 Bhairavi She who is the consort of Bhairava 277 Bhaga malini She who is the goddess bhaga malini 278 Padmasana She who sits on a lotus 279 Bhagavathi She who is with all wealth and knowledge 280 Padmanabha sahodari She who is the sister of Vishnu 281 Unmesha nimishotpanna vipanna bhuvanavali She who creates and destroys the universe by opening and closing of her eye lids 282 Sahasra seersha vadana She who has thousands of faces and heads 283 Saharakshi She who has thousands of eyes 284 Sahasra path She who has thousands of feet 285 Aabrahma keeda janani She has created all beings from worm to Lord Brahma 286 Varnashrama vidhayini She who created the four fold division of society 287 Nijangna roopa nigama She who gave orders which are based on Vedas 288 Punyapunya phala pradha She who gives compensation for sins and good deeds 289 Sruthi seemantha kula sindhoori kritha padabjha dhooliga She whose dust from her lotus feet is the sindhoora fills up in the parting of the hair of the Vedic mother 290 Sakalagama sandoha shukthi samputa maukthika She who is like the pearl in the pearl holding shell of Vedas 291 Purashartha pradha She who gives us the purusharthas of Charity, assets, joy and moksha 292 Poorna She who is complete 293 Bhogini She who enjoys pleasures 294 Bhuvaneshwari She who is the Goddess presiding over the universe 295 Ambika She who is the mother of the world 296 Anadhi nidhana She who does not have either end or beginning 297 Hari brahmendra sevitha She who is served by Gods like Vishnu,Indra and Brahma 298 Naarayani She who is like Narayana 299 Naada roopa She who is the shape of music (sound) 300 Nama roopa vivarjitha She who does not have either name or shape 301 Hrim kari She who makes the holy sound Hrim 302 Harimathi She who is shy 303 Hrudya She who is in the heart (devotees) 304 Heyopadeya varjitha She who does not have aspects which can be accepted or rejected 305 Raja rajarchitha She who is being worshipped by king of kings 306 Rakhini She who is the queen of Kameshwara 307 Ramya She who makes others happy 308 Rajeeva lochana She who is lotus eyed 309 Ranjani She who by her red colour makes Shiva also red 310 Ramani She who plays with her devotees 311 Rasya She who feeds the juice of everything 312 Ranath kinkini mekhala She who wears the golden waist band with tinkling bells 313 Ramaa She who is like Lakshmi 314 Raakendu vadana She who has a face like the full moon 315 Rathi roopa She who attracts others with her features like Rathi (wife of God of love-Manmatha) 316 Rathi priya She who likes Rathi 317 Rakshaa kari She who protects 318 Rakshasagni She who kills Rakshasas-ogres opposed to the heaven 319 Raamaa She who is feminine 320 Ramana lampata She who is interested in making love to her lord 321 Kaamya She who is of the form of love 322 Kamakala roopa She who is the personification of the art of love 323 Kadambha kusuma priya She who likes the flowers of Kadamba 324 Kalyani She who does good 325 Jagathi kandha She who is like a root to the world 326 Karuna rasa sagara She who is the sea of the juice of mercy 327 Kalavathi She who is an artist or she who has crescents 328 Kalaalapa She whose talk is artful 329 Kaantha She who glitters 330 Kadambari priya She who likes the wine called Kadambari or She who likes long stories 331 Varadha She who gives boons 332 Vama nayana She who has beautiful eyes 333 Vaaruni madha vihwala She who gets drunk with the wine called varuni(The wine of happiness) 334 Viswadhika She who is above all universe 335 Veda vedya She who can be understood by Vedas 336 Vindhyachala nivasini She who lives on Vindhya mountains 337 Vidhatri She who carries the world 338 Veda janani She who created the Vedas 339 Vishnu maya She who lives as the Vishnu maya 340 Vilasini She who enjoys love making 341 Kshetra swaroopa She who is personification of the Kshetra or body 342 Kshetresi She who is goddess of bodies 343 Kshethra kshethragna palini She who looks after bodies and their lord 344 Kshaya vridhi nirmuktha She who neither decreases or increases 345 Kshetra pala samarchitha She who is worshipped by those who look after bodies 346 Vijaya She who is always victorious 347 Vimala She who is clean of ignorance and illusion 348 Vandhya She who is being worshipped by every body 349 Vandharu jana vatsala She who has affection towards all those who worship her 350 Vaag vadhini She who uses words with great effect in arguments 351 Vama kesi She who has beautiful hair 352 Vahni mandala vaasini She who lives in the universe of fire which is Mooladhara 353 Bhakthi mat kalpa lathika She who is the wish giving creeper Kalpaga 354 Pasu pasa vimochani She who removes shackles from the living 355 Samhrutha sesha pashanda She who destroys those people who have left their faith 356 Sadachara pravarthika She who makes things happen through good conduct 357 Thapatryagni santhaptha samahladahna chandrika She who is like the pleasure giving moon to those who suffer from the three types of pain 358 Tharuni She who is ever young 359 Thapasa aradhya She who is being worshipped by sages 360 Thanu Madhya She who has a narrow middle (hip) 361 Thamopaha She who destroys darkness 362 Chithi She who is personification of wisdom 363 Thatpada lakshyartha She who is the indicative meaning of the word “thath” which is the first word of vedic saying “that thou art” 364 Chidekara swaroopini She who is wisdom through out 365 Swathmananda lavi bhootha brahmadyanantha santhathi She who in her ocean of wisdom makes Wisdom about Brahmam look like a wave 366 Paraa She who is the outside meaning of every thing 367 Prathyak chidi roopa She who makes us look for wisdom inside 368 Pasyanthi She who sees everything within herself 369 Para devatha She who gives power to all gods 370 Madhyama She who is in the middle of everything 371 Vaikhari roopa She who is of the form with words 372 Bhaktha manasa hamsikha She who is like a swan in the lake called mind 373 Kameshwara prana nadi She who is the life source of Kameswara 374 Kruthagna She who watches all actions of every one or She who knows all 375 Kama poojitha She who is being worshipped by the god of love in the kama giri peeta of Mooladhara chakra-Kama 376 Srungara rasa sampoorna She who is lovely 377 Jayaa She who is personification of victory 378 Jalandhara sthitha She who is on Jalandhara peetha or She who is purest of the pure 379 Odyana peeda nilaya She who is on Odyana peetha or She who lives in orders 380 Bindu mandala vaasini She who lives in the dot in the center of Srichakra 381 Raho yoga kramaradhya She who can be worshipped by secret sacrificial rites 382 Rahas tarpana tarpitha She who is pleased of chants knowing its meaning 383 Sadya prasadini She who is pleased immediately 384 Viswa sakshini She who is the witness for the universe 385 Sakshi varjitha She who does not have witness for herself 386 Shadanga devatha yuktha She who has her six parts as gods viz., heart, head, hair. Battle dress, eyes and arrows 387 Shadgunya paripooritha She who is full of six characteristics viz., wealth, duty, fame, knowledge, assets and renunciation 388 Nithya klinna She in whose heart there is always mercy 389 Nirupama She who does not have anything to be compared to 390 Nirvanasukha dayini She who gives redemption 391 Nithya shodasika roopa She who is of the form sixteen goddesses 392 Sri kandartha sareerini She who occupies half the body of Lord Shiva 393 Prabhavathi She who is lustrous of supernatural powers 394 Prabha roopa She who is personification of the light provided by super natural powers 395 Prasiddha She who is famous 396 Parameshwari She who is the ultimate goddess 397 Moola prakrithi She who is the root cause 398 Avyaktha She who is not clearly seen 399 Vyktha Avyaktha swaroopini She who is visible and not visible 400 Vyapini She who is spread everywhere 401 Vividhakara She who has several different forms 402 Vidhya avidhya swaroopini She who is the form of knowledge as well as ignorance 403 Maha kamesha nayana kumudahladha kaumudhi She who is like the full moon which opens the lotus like eyes of Lord Kameshwara 404 Bhaktha hardha thamo bedha bhanu mat bhanu santhathi She who is like the sun’s rays which remove the darkness from the heart of devotees 405 Shivadhoothi She who sent Shiva as her representative 406 Shivaradhya She who is worshipped by Lord Shiva 407 Shiva moorthi She who is of the form of Lord Shiva 408 Shivangari She who makes good to happen 409 Shiva priya She who is dear to Lord Shiva 410 Shivapara She who does not have any other interest except Lord Shiva 411 Shishteshta She who likes people with good habits 412 Shishta poojitha She who is being worshipped by good people 413 Aprameya She who cannot be measured 414 Swaprakasha She who has her own luster 415 Mano vachama gochara She who is beyond the mind and the word 416 Chitsakthi She who is the strength of holy knowledge 417 Chethana roopa She who is the personification of the power behind action 418 Jada shakthi She who is the strength of the immobile 419 Jadathmikha She who is the world of immobile 420 Gayathri She who is Gayathri 421 Vyahruthi She who is the grammar originating from letters 422 Sandhya She who is the union of souls and the God 423 Dwija brinda nishewitha She who is being worshipped by all beings 424 Tatwasana She who sits on principles 425 Tat She who is that 426 Twam She who is you 427 Ayee She who is the mother 428 Pancha kosandara sthitha She who is in between the five holy parts 429 Nissema mahima She who has limitless fame 430 Nithya youawana She who is ever young 431 Madha shalini She who shines by her exuberance 432 Madha goornitha rakthakshi She who has rotating red eyes due to her exuberance 433 Madha patala khandaboo She who has red cheeks due to excessive action 434 Chandana drava dhigdhangi She who applies sandal paste all over her body 435 Champeya kusuma priya She who likes the flowers of Champaka tree 436 Kusala She who is intelligent 437 Komalakara She who has soft beautiful form 438 Kuru kulla She who is of the form of Kuru kulla devi who lives in Vimarsa 439 Kuleshwari She who is the goddess for the clan 440 Kula kundalaya She who lives in kula kunda or She who is the power called Kundalani 441 Kaula marga that para sevitha She who is being worshipped by people who follow Kaula matha 442 Kumara gana nadambha She who is mother to Ganesha and Subrahmanya 443 Thushti She who is personification of happiness 444 Pushti She who is personification of health 445 Mathi She who is personification of wisdom 446 Dhrithi She who is personification of courage 447 Santhi She who is peaceful 448 Swasthimathi She who always keeps well 449 Kanthi She who is personification of light 450 Nandhini She who is personification of Nadhini daughter of Kama denu 451 Vigna nasini She who removes obstacles 452 Tejowathi She who shines 453 Trinayana She who has three eyes 454 Lolakshi-Kamaroopini She who has wandering passionate eyes 455 Malini She who wears a garland 456 Hamsini She who is surrounded by swans 457 Matha She who is the mother 458 Malayachala vasini She who lives in the Malaya mountain 459 Sumukhi She who has a pleasing disposition 460 Nalini She who is tender 461 Subru She who has beautiful eyelids 462 Shobhana She who brings good things 463 Sura Nayika She who is the leader of devas 464 Kala kanti She who is the consort of he who killed the god of death 465 Kanthi mathi She who has ethereal luster 466 Kshobhini She who creates high emotions or She who gets agitated 467 Sukshma roopini She who has a micro stature 468 Vajreshwari She who is Vajreswari (lord of diamonds) who occupies jalandhara peetha 469 Vamadevi She who is the consort of Vama deva 470 Vayovastha vivarjitha She who does not change with age 471 Sidheswari She who is the goddess of Siddhas (saints with super natural powers) 472 Sidha vidya She who is personification of pancha dasa manthra which is called siddha vidya 473 Sidha matha She who is the mother of Siddhas 474 Yasawini She who is famous 475 Vishudhichakra Nilaya She who is in sixteen petalled lotus 476 Aarakthavarni She who is slightly red 477 Trilochana She who has three eyes 478 Khadwangadhi prakarana She who has arms like the sword 479 Vadanaika samavidha She who has one face 480 Payasanna priya She who likes sweet rice (Payasam) 481 Twakstha She who lives in the sensibility of the skin 482 Pasu loka Bhayamkari She who creates fear for animal like men 483 Amruthathi maha sakthi samvrutha She who is surrounded by Maha shakthis like Amrutha,Karshini, Indrani, Eesani, uma,Urdwa kesi 484 Dakineeswari She who is goddess of the south(denoting death) 485 Anahathabja nilaya She who lives in the twelve petalled lotus 486 Syamabha She who is greenish black 487 Vadanadwaya She who has two faces 488 Dhamshtrojwala She who shines with long protruding teeth 489 Aksha maladhi dhara She who wears meditation chains 490 Rudhira samsthida She who is in blood 491 Kala rathryadhi Shakthi youga vrudha She who is surrounded by Shakthis like Kalarathri. Kanditha, Gayathri, .etc 492 Sniggdowdhana priya She who likes Ghee mixed rice 493 Maha veerendra varadha She who gives boons to great heroes or She who gives boons to great sages 494 Rakinyambha swaroopini She who has names like rakini 495 Mani poorabja nilaya She who lives in ten petalled lotus 496 Vadana thraya samyudha She who has three faces 497 Vajradhikayudhopetha She who has weapons like Vajrayudha 498 Damaryadhibhi ravrutha She who is surrounded by Goddess like Damari 499 Raktha varna She who is of the colour of blood 500 Mamsa nishta She who is in flesh 501 Gudanna preetha manasa She who likes rice mixed with jaggery 502 Samastha bhaktha sukhadha She who gives pleasure to all her devotees 503 Lakinyambha swaroopini She who is famous in the name of “Lakini” 504 Swadhishtanambujagatha She who lives in the six petalled lotus 505 Chathur vakthra manohara She who has four beautiful faces 506 Sulayudha sampanna She who has weapons like Spear 507 Peetha varna She who is of golden colour 508 Adhi garvitha She who is very proud 509 Medho nishta She who is in the fatty layer 510 Madhu preetha She who likes honey 511 Bhandinyadhi samanvidha She who is surrounded by Shakthis called Bandhini 512 Dhadyanna saktha hridhaya She who likes curd rice 513 Kakini roopa dharini She who resembles “Kakini” 514 Mooladrambujarooda She who sits on the mooladhara kamala or the lotus which is the basic support 515 Pancha vakthra She who has five faces 516 Sthithi samsthitha She who is in the bones 517 Ankusathi praharana She who holds Ankusha and other weapons 518 Varadadhi nishevitha She who is surrounded by Vardha and other shakthis 519 Mudgou danasaktha chittha She who likes rice mixed with green gram dhal 520 Sakinyambha swaroopini She who has the name “Sakini” 521 Agna chakrabja nilaya She who sits on the lotus called Agna chakra or the wheel of order 522 Shukla varna She who is white coloured 523 Shadanana She who has six faces 524 Majja samstha She who is in the fat surrounding the body 525 Hamsavathi mukhya shakthi samanvitha She who is surrounded by shakthis called Hamsavathi 526 Hardrannaika rasika She who likes rice mixed with turmeric powder 527 Hakini roopa dharini She who has the name “Hakini” 528 Sahasra dhala padhmastha She who sits on thousand petalled lotus 529 Sarva varnopi shobitha She who shines in all colours 530 Sarvayudha dhara She who is armed with all weapons 531 Shukla samsthitha She who is in shukla or semen 532 Sarvathomukhi She who has faces everywhere 533 Sarvou dhana preetha chittha She who likes all types of rice 534 Yakinyambha swaroopini She who is named as “yakini” 535 Swaha She who is personification of Swaha ( the manthra chanted during fire sacrifice ) 536 Swadha She who is of the form of Swadha 537 Amathi She who is ignorance 538 Medha She who is knowledge 539 Sruthi She who is Vedas 540 Smrithi She who is the guide to Vedas 541 Anuthama She who is above all 542 Punya keerthi She who is famous for good deeds 543 Punya labhya She who can be attained by good deeds 544 Punya sravana keerthana She who gives good for those who listen and those who sing about her 545 Pulomajarchidha She who is worshipped by wife of Indra 546 Bandha mochini She who releases us from bondage 547 Barbharalaka She who has forelocks which resembles waves 548 Vimarsa roopini She who is hidden from view 549 Vidhya She who is “learning” 550 Viyadhadhi jagat prasu She who created the earth and the sky 551 Sarva vyadhi prasamani She who cures all diseases 552 Sarva mrutyu nivarini She who avoids all types of death 553 Agra ganya She who is at the top 554 Achintya roopa She who is beyond thought 555 Kali kalmasha nasini She who removes the ills of the dark age 556 Kathyayini She who is Kathyayini in Odyana peetha or She who is the daughter of sage Kathyayana 557 Kala hanthri She who kills god of death 558 Kamalaksha nishevitha She who is being worshipped by the lotus eyed Vishnu 559 Thamboola pooritha mukhi She whose mouth is filled with betel leaves , betel nut and lime 560 Dhadimi kusuma prabha She whose colour is like the pomegranate bud 561 Mrgakshi She who has eyes like deer 562 Mohini She who bewitches 563 Mukhya She who is the chief 564 Mridani She who gives pleasure 565 Mithra roopini She who is of the form of Sun 566 Nithya Truptha She who is satisfied always 567 Bhaktha Nidhi She who is the treasure house of devotees 568 Niyanthri She who controls 569 Nikhileswari She who is goddess for every thing 570 Maitryadhi vasana Labhya She who can be attained by habits like Maithree (friendship) 571 Maha pralaya sakshini She who is the witness to the great deluge 572 Para Shakthi She who is the end strength 573 Para Nishta She who is at the end of concentration 574 Prgnana Gana roopini She who is personification of all superior knowledge 575 Madhvi pana lasaa She who is not interested in anything else due to drinking of toddy 576 Matha She who appears to be fainted 577 Mathruka varna roopini She who is the model of colour and shape 578 Maha Kailasa nilaya She who sits on Maha Kailasa 579 Mrinala mrudhu dhorllatha She who has arms as tender as lotus stalk 580 Mahaneeya She who is fit to be venerated 581 Dhaya moorthi She who is personification of mercy 582 Maha samrajya shalini She who is the chef of all the worlds 583 Atma vidhya She who is the science of soul 584 Maha Vidhya She who is the great knowledge 585 Srividhya She who is the knowledge of Goddess 586 Kama sevitha She who is worshipped by Kama, the God of love 587 Sri Shodasakshari vidhya She who is the sixteen lettered knowledge 588 Trikoota She who is divided in to three parts 589 Kama Kotika She who sits on Kama Koti peetha 590 Kataksha kimkari bhootha kamala koti sevitha She who is attended by crores of Lakshmis who yearn for her simple glance 591 Shira sthitha She who is in the head 592 Chandra nibha She who is like the full moon 593 Bhalastha She who is in the forehead 594 Indra Dhanu Prabha She who is like the rain bow 595 Hridayastha She who is in the heart 596 Ravi pragya She who has luster like Sun God 597 Tri konanthara deepika She who is like a light in a triangle 598 Dakshayani She who is the daughter of Daksha 599 Dhithya hanthri She who kills asuras 600 Daksha yagna vinasini She who destroyed the sacrifice of Rudra 601 Dharandholitha deergakshi She who has long eyes which have slight movement 602 Dharahasojwalanmukhi She who has face that glitters with her smile 603 Guru moorthi She who is the teacher 604 Guna nidhi She who is the treasure house of good qualities 605 Gomatha She who is the mother cow 606 Guhajanma bhoo She who is the birth place of Lord Subrahmanya 607 Deveshi She who is the goddess of Gods 608 Dhanda neethistha She who judges and punishes 609 Dhaharakasa roopini She who is of the form of wide sky 610 Prathi panmukhya rakantha thidhi mandala poojitha She who is being worshipped on all the fifteen days from full moon to new moon 611 Kalathmika She who is the soul of arts 612 Kala nadha She who is the chief of arts 613 Kavya labha vimodhini She who enjoys being described in epics 614 Sachamara rama vani savya dhakshina sevitha She who is being fanned by Lakshmi the goddess of wealth and Saraswathi the goddess of knowledge 615 Adishakthi She who is the primeval force 616 Ameya She who cannot be measured 617 Atma She who is the soul 618 Parama She who is better than all others 619 Pavana krithi She who is personification of purity 620 Aneka koti Bramanda janani She who is the mother of several billions of universes 621 Divya Vigraha She who is beautifully made 622 Klim karee She who is the shape of “Klim” 623 Kevalaa She who is she herself 624 Guhya She who is secret 625 Kaivalya Padha dhayini She who gives redemption as well as position 626 Tripura She who lives everything in three aspects 627 Trijagat vandhya She who is worshipped by all in three worlds 628 Trimurthi She who is the trinity 629 Tri daseswari She who is the goddess for all gods 630 Tryakshya She who is of the form of three letters 631 Divya Gandhadya She who has godly smell 632 Sindhura thila kanchidha She who wears the sindhoora dot in her forehead 633 Uma She who is in “om” 634 Sailendra Thanaya She who is the daughter of the king of mountains 635 Gowri She who is white coloured 636 Gandharwa Sevitha She who is worshipped by gandharwas 637 Viswa Grabha She who carries the universe in her belly 638 Swarna Garbha She who is personification of gold 639 Avaradha She who punishes bad people 640 Vagadeeswaree She who is the goddess of words 641 Dhyanagamya She who can be attained by meditation 642 Aparichedya She who cannot be predicted to be in a certain place 643 Gnadha She who gives out knowledge 644 Gnana Vigraha She who is personification of knowledge 645 Sarva vedhantha samvedya She who can be known by all Upanishads 646 Satyananda swaroopini She who is personification of truth and happiness 647 Lopa mudrarchitha She who is worshipped by Lopa Mudhra the wife of Agasthya 648 Leela kluptha brahmanda mandala She who creates the different universes by simple play 649 Adurshya She who cannot be seen 650 Drusya rahitha She who does not see things differently 651 Vignathree She who knows all sciences 652 Vedhya varjitha She who does not have any need to know anything 653 Yogini She who is personification of Yoga 654 Yogadha She who gives knowledge and experience of yoga 655 Yogya She who can be reached by yoga 656 Yogananda She who gets pleasure out of yoga 657 Yugandhara She who wears the yuga (Division of eons of time) 658 Iccha shakthi-Gnana shakthi-Kriya shakthi swaroopini She who has desire as her head, Knowledge as her body and work as her feet 659 Sarvaadhara She who is the basis of everything 660 Suprathishta She who is the best place of stay 661 Sada sadroopa dharini She who always has truth in her 662 Ashta moorthy She who has eight forms 663 Aja jethree She who has won over ignorance 664 Loka yathra vidahyini She who makes the world rotate(travel) 665 Ekakini She who is only herself and alone 666 Bhooma roopa She who is what we see , hear and understand 667 Nirdwaitha She who makes everything as one 668 Dwaitha varjitha She who is away from “more than one” 669 Annadha She who gives food 670 Vasudha She who gives wealth 671 Vriddha She who is old 672 Brhmatmykya swaroopini She who merges herself in brahma-the ultimate truth 673 Brihathi She who is big 674 Brahmani She who is the wife of easwara 675 Brahmi She who has one aspect of Brhma 676 Brahmananda She who is the ultimate happiness 677 Bali priya She who likes the strong 678 Bhasha roopa She who is personification of language 679 Brihat sena She who has big army 680 Bhavabhava vivarjitha She who does not have birth or death 681 Sukharadhya She who can be worshipped with pleasure 682 Shubhakaree She who does good 683 Shobhana sulabha gathi She who is easy to attain and does only good 684 Raja rajeswari She who is goddess to king of kings like Devaraja, Yaksha raja, , Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra 685 Rajya Dhayini She who gives kingdoms like Vaikunta, kailasa etc 686 Rajya vallabha She who likes such kingdoms 687 Rajat krupa She whose mercy shines everywhere 688 Raja peetha nivesitha nijasritha She who makes people approaching her as kings 689 Rajya lakshmi She who is the wealth of kingdoms 690 Kosa natha She who protects the treasury 691 Chathuranga baleswai She who is the leader of the four fold army (Mind, brain, thought and ego) 692 Samrajya Dhayini She who makes you emperor 693 Sathya Sandha She who is truthful 694 Sagara Mekhala She who is the earth surrounded by the sea 695 Deekshitha She who gives the right to do fire sacrifice 696 Dhaitya Shamani She who controls anti gods 697 Sarva loka vasam kari She who keeps all the world within her control 698 Sarvartha Dhatri She who gives all wealth 699 Savithri She who is shines like the sun 700 Sachidananda roopini She who is personification of the ultimate truth 701 Desa kala parischinna She who is not divided by region or time 702 Sarvaga She who is full of everywhere 703 Sarva mohini She who attracts every thing 704 Saraswathi She who is the goddess of knowledge 705 Sasthra mayi She who is the meaning of sciences 706 Guhamba She who is mother of Lord Subrahmanya (Guha) 707 Guhya roopini She whose form is hidden from all 708 Sarvo padhi vinirmuktha She who does not have any doctrines 709 Sada shiva pathi vritha She who is devoted wife for all times to Lord Shiva 710 Sampradhayeshwari She who is goddess to rituals or She who is goddess to teacher-student hierarchy 711 Sadhu She who is innocent 712 Ee She who is the letter “e” 713 Guru mandala roopini She who is the universe round teachers 714 Kulotheerna She who is beyond the group of senses 715 Bhagaradhya She who is to be worshipped in the universe round the sun 716 Maya She who is illusion 717 Madhumathi She who is the trance stage (seventh ) in yoga 718 Mahee She who is personification of earth 719 Ganamba She who is mother to Ganesha and bhootha ganas 720 Guhyakaradhya She who should be worshipped in secret places 721 Komalangi She who has beautiful limbs 722 Guru Priya She who likes teachers 723 Swathanthra She who is independent 724 Sarwa thanthresi She who is goddess to all thanthras (tricks to attain God) 725 Dakshina moorthi roopini She who is the personification of God facing South (The teacher form of Shiva) 726 Sanakadhi samaradhya She who is being worshipped by Sanaka sages 727 Siva gnana pradhayini She who gives the knowledge of God 728 Chid kala She who is the micro power deep within 729 Ananda Kalika She who is the happiness in beings 730 Prema roopa She who is the form of love 731 Priyamkaree She who does what is liked 732 Nama parayana preetha She who likes repetition of her various names 733 Nandhi vidhya She who is the knowledge taught by Nandi deva (The bull god on whom shiva rides) 734 Nateshwaree She who is the goddess of dance 735 Mithya Jagat athishtana She who is luck to this world of illusion 736 Mukthida She who gives redemption 737 Mukthi roopini She who is redemption 738 Lasya priya She who likes feminine dance 739 Laya karee She who is the bridge between dance and music 740 Lajja She who is shy 741 Rambha adhi vandhitha She who is worshipped by the celestial dancers 742 Bhava dhava sudha vrishti She who douses the forest fire of the sad life of mortals with a rain of nectar. 743 Paparanya dhavanala She who is the forest fire that destroys the forest of sin 744 Daurbhagya thoolavathoola She who is the cyclone that blows away the cotton of bad luck. 745 Jaradwanthara viprabha She who is the suns rays that swallows the darkness of old age 746 Bhagyabdhi chandrika She who is the full moon to the sea of luck 747 Bhaktha Chitta Keki Ganagana She who is the black cloud to the peacock which is he devotees mind 748 Roga parvatha Dhambola She who is the Vajra weapon which breaks the sickness which is like the mountain 749 Mrutyu Dharu Kudarika She who is like the axe which fells the tree of death 750 Maheswaree She who is the greatest goddess 751 Maha kali She who is the great Kalee 752 Maha grasa She who is like a great drinking bowl 753 Mahasana She who is the great eater 754 Aparna She who did meditation without even eating a leaf 755 Chandika She who is supremely angry 756 Chanda mundasura nishoodhini She who killed the asuras called Chanda and Munda 757 Ksharaksharathmika She who can never be destroyed and also destroyed 758 Sarva lokesi She who is goddess to all the worlds 759 Viswa Dharini She who carries all the universe 760 Thrivarga Dhathri She who gives dharma, Assets and pleasure 761 Subhaga She who is pleasing to look at 762 Thryambhaga She who has three eyes 763 Trigunathmika She who is personification of three gunas viz .,Thamo (Kali), Rajo (Dhurga) and Sathva (Parvathy) 764 Swargapavargadha She who gives heaven and the way to it 765 Shuddha She who is clean 766 Japapushpa nibhakrithi She who has the colour of hibiscus 767 Ojovathi She who is full of vigour 768 Dhyuthidhara She who has light 769 Yagna roopa She who is of the form of sacrifice 770 Priyavrudha She who likes penances 771 Dhuraradhya She who is rarely available for worship 772 Dhuradharsha She who cannot be won 773 Patali kusuma priya She who likes the buds of Patali tree 774 Mahathi She who is big 775 Meru nilaya She who lives in Meru mountain 776 Mandhara kusuma priya She who likes the buds of Mandhara tree 777 Veeraradhya She who is worshipped by heroes 778 Virad Roopa She who a universal look 779 Viraja She who does not have any blemish 780 Viswathomukhi She who sees through every ones eyes 781 Prathyg roopa She who can be seen by looking inside 782 Parakasa She who is the great sky 783 Pranadha She who gives the soul 784 Prana roopini She who is the soul 785 Marthanda Bhairavaradhya She who is being worshipped by Marthanda Bhairava 786 Manthrini nyashtha rajyadhoo She who gave the power to rule to her form of Manthrini 787 Tripuresi She who is the head of three cities 788 Jayatsena She who has an army which wins 789 Nistrai gunya She who is above the three qualities 790 Parapara She who is outside and inside 791 Satya gnananda roopa She who is personification of truth, knowledge and happiness 792 Samarasya parayana She who stands in peace 793 Kapardhini She who is the wife of Kapardhi (Siva with hair) 794 Kalamala She who wears arts as garlands 795 Kamadhukh She who fulfills desires 796 Kama roopini She who can take any form 797 Kala nidhi She who is the treasure of arts 798 Kavya kala She who is the art of writing 799 Rasagna She who appreciates arts 800 Rasa sevadhi She who is the treasure of arts 801 Pushta She who is healthy 802 Purathana She who is ancient 803 Poojya She who is fit to be worshipped 804 Pushkara She who gives exuberance 805 Pushkarekshana She who has lotus like eyes 806 Paramjyothi She who is the ultimate light 807 Param dhama She who is the ultimate resting place 808 Paramanu She who is the ultimate atom 809 Parath para She who is better than the best 810 Pasa Hastha She who has rope in her hand 811 Pasa Hanthri She who cuts off attachment 812 Para manthra Vibhedini She who destroys the effect of spells cast 813 Moortha She who has a form 814 Amoortha She who does not have a form 815 Anithya thriptha She who gets happy with prayers using temporary things 816 Muni manasa hamsika She who is the swan in the mind ( lake like) of sages 817 Satya vritha She who has resolved to speak only truth 818 Sathya roopa She who is the real form 819 Sarvantharyamini She who is within everything 820 Sathee She who is Sathee the daughter of Daksha 821 Brahmani She who is the strength behind creator 822 Brahmaa She who is the creator 823 Janani She who is the mother 824 Bahu roopa She who has several forms 825 Budharchitha She who is being worshipped by the enlightened 826 Prasavithri She who has given birth to everything 827 Prachanda She who is very angry 828 Aagna She who is the order 829 Prathishta She who has been installed 830 Prakata Krithi She who is clearly visible 831 Praneshwari She who is goddess to the soul 832 Prana Dhatri She who gives the soul 833 Panchast peeta roopini She who is in fifty Shakthi peethas like Kama ropa, Varanasi. Ujjain etc 834 Vishungala She who is not chained 835 Vivikthastha She who is in lonely places 836 Veera matha She who is the mother of heroes 837 Viyat prasoo She who has created the sky 838 Mukundaa She who gives redemption 839 Mukthi nilaya She who is the seat of redemption 840 Moola vigraha roopini She who is the basic statue 841 Bavagna She who understands wishes and thoughts 842 Bhava rokagni She who cures the sin of birth 843 Bhava Chakra Pravarthani She makes the wheel of birth rotate 844 Chanda sara She who is the meaning of Vedas 845 Sasthra sara She who is the meaning of Puranas(epics) 846 Manthra sara She who is the meaning of Manthras ( chants) 847 Thalodharee She who has a small belly 848 Udara keerthi She who has wide and tall fame 849 Uddhhama vaibhava She who has immeasurable fame 850 Varna roopini She who is personification of alphabets 851 Janma mrutyu jara thaptha jana vishranthi dhayini She who is the panacea of ills of birth, death and aging 852 Sarvopanisha dhudh gushta She who is being loudly announced as the greatest by Upanishads 853 Shantyathheetha kalathmika She who is a greater art than peace 854 Gambheera She whose depth cannot be measured 855 Gagananthastha She who is situated in the sky 856 Garvitha She who is proud 857 Gana lolupa She who likes songs 858 Kalpana rahitha She who does not imagine 859 Kashta She who is in the ultimate boundary 860 Akantha She who removes sins 861 Kanthatha vigraha She who is half of her husband (kantha) 862 Karya karana nirmuktha She who is beyond the action and the cause 863 Kama keli tharangitha She who is the waves of the sea of the play of the God 864 Kanath kanaka thadanga She who wears the glittering golden ear studs 865 Leela vigraha dharini She who assumes several forms as play 866 Ajha She who does not have birth 867 Kshaya nirmuktha She who does not have death 868 Gubdha She who is beautiful 869 Ksipra prasadhini She who is pleased quickly 870 Anthar mukha samaradhya She who is worshipped by internal thoughts 871 Bahir mukha sudurlabha She who can be attained by external prayers 872 Thrayee She who is of the form of three Vedas viz Rik, yajur and sama 873 Trivarga nilaya She who is in three aspects of self, assets and pleasure 874 Thristha She who is in three 875 Tripura malini She who is in tripura the sixth section of Srichakra 876 Niramaya She who is without diseases 877 Niralamba She who does not need another birth 878 Swatma rama She who enjoys within herself 879 Sudha sruthi She who is the rain of nectar 880 Samsara panga nirmagna samuddharana panditha She who is capable of saving people who drown in the mud of day today life 881 Yagna priya She who likes fire sacrifice 882 Yagna karthree She who carries out fire sacrifice 883 Yajamana swaroopini She who is the doer of fire sacrifice 884 Dharma dhara She who is the basis of Dharma-the rightful action 885 Dhanadyaksha She who presides over wealth 886 Dhanadhanya vivardhani She who makes wealth and grain to grow 887 Vipra priya She who likes those who learn Vedas 888 Vipra roopa She who is the learner of Vedas 889 Viswa brhamana karini She who makes the universe to rotate 890 Viswa grasa She who eats the universe in one handful 891 Vidhrumabha She who has the luster of coral 892 Vaishnavi She who is the power of Vishnu 893 Vishnu roopini She who is Vishnu 894 Ayoni She who does not have a cause or She who is not born 895 Yoni nilaya She who is the cause and source of everything 896 Kootastha She who is stable 897 Kula roopini She who is personification of culture 898 Veera goshti priya She who likes company of heroes 899 Veera She who has valour 900 Naish karmya She who does not have attachment to action 901 Nadha roopini She who is the form of sound 902 Vignana kalana She who makes science 903 Kalya She who is expert in arts 904 Vidhagdha She who is an expert 905 Baindavasana She who sits in the dot of the thousand petalled lotus 906 Tathwadhika She who is above all metaphysics 907 Tatwa mayee She who is Metaphysics 908 Tatwa Martha swaroopini She who is personification of this and that 909 Sama gana priya She who likes singing of sama 910 Soumya She who is peaceful or She who is as pretty as the moon 911 Sada shiva kutumbini She who is consort of Sada shiva 912 Savyapa savya margastha She who is birth, death and living or She who likes the priestly and tantric methods 913 Sarva apadvi nivarini She who removes all dangers 914 Swastha She who has everything within her or She who is peaceful 915 Swabhava madura She who is by nature sweet 916 Dheera She who is courageous 917 Dheera samarchida She who is being worshipped by the courageous 918 Chaithnyarkya samaradhya She who is worshipped by the ablation of water 919 Chaitanya kusuma priya She who likes the never fading flowers 920 Saddothitha She who never sets 921 Sadha thushta She who is always happy 922 Tharunadithya patala She who like the young son is red mixed with white 923 Dakshina Daksinaradhya She who is worshipped by the learned and ignorant 924 Dharasmera mukhambuja She who has a smiling face like the lotus in full bloom 925 Kaulini kevala She who is mixture of the koula and kevala methods 926 Anargya kaivalya pada dhayini She who gives the immeasurable heavenly stature 927 Stotra priya She who likes chants 928 Sthuthi mathi She who gives boons for those who sing her chants 929 Sthuthi samsthutha vaibhava She who is worshipped by the Vedas 930 Manaswaini She who has a stable mind 931 Manavathi She who has big heart 932 Mahesi She who is the greatest goddess 933 Mangala kruthi She who does only good 934 Viswa Matha The mother of the universe 935 Jagat Dhathri She who supports the world 936 Visalakshi She who is broad eyed 937 Viragini She who has renounced 938 Pragalbha She who is courageous 939 Paramodhara She who is great giver 940 Paramodha She who has great happiness 941 Manomayi She who is one with mind 942 Vyoma kesi She who is the wife of Shiva who has sky as his hair 943 Vimanastha She who is at the top 944 Vajrini She who has indra’s wife as a part 945 Vamakeshwaree She who is goddess of the people who follow the left path 946 Pancha yagna priya She who likes the five sacrifices 947 Pancha pretha manchadhi sayini She who sleeps on the cot made of five corpses 948 Panchami She who is the consort of Sadshiva –the fifth of the pancha brahmas 949 Pancha bhoothesi She who is the chief of Pancha bhoothas viz earth, sky, fire, air. And water 950 Pancha sankhyopacharini She who is to be worshipped by five methods of Gandha(sandal wood), Pushpa(flower), Dhoopa(incense), dheepa(light), Naivedya(offering) 951 Saswathi She who is permanent 952 Saswathaiswarya She who gives perennial wealth 953 Sarmadha She who gives pleasure 954 Sambhu mohini She who bewitches Lord Shiva 955 Dhara She who carries (beings like earth) 956 Dharasutha She who is the daughter of the mountain 957 Dhanya She who has all sort of wealth 958 Dharmini She who likes dharma 959 Dharma vardhini She who makes dharma grow 960 Loka theetha She who is beyond the world 961 Guna theetha She who is beyond properties 962 Sarvatheetha She who is beyond everything 963 Samathmika She who is peace 964 Bhandhooka kusuma prakhya She who has the glitter of bhandhooka flowers 965 Bala She who is a young maiden 966 Leela Vinodhini She who loves to play 967 Sumangali She who gives all good things 968 Sukha kari She who gives pleasure 969 Suveshadya She who is well made up 970 Suvasini She who is sweet scented(married woman) 971 Suvasinyarchana preetha She who likes the worship of married woman 972 AAshobhana She who has full glitter 973 Shuddha manasa She who has a clean mind 974 Bindhu tharpana santhushta She who is happy with the offering in the dot of Ananda maya chakra 975 Poorvaja She who preceded every one 976 Tripurambika She who is the goddess of three cities 977 Dasa mudhra samaradhya She who is worshipped by ten mudras(postures of the hand) 978 Thrpura sree vasankari She who keeps the goddess Tripura sree 979 Gnana mudhra She who shows the symbol of knowledge 980 Gnana gamya She who can be attained by knowledge 981 Gnana gneya swaroopini She who is what is thought and the thought 982 Yoni mudhra She who shows the symbol of pleasure 983 Trikhandesi She who is the lord of three zones of fire, moon and sun 984 Triguna She who is three characters 985 Amba She who is the mother 986 Trikonaga She who has attained at all vertices of a triangle 987 Anaga She who is not neared by sin 988 Adbutha charithra She who has a wonderful history 989 Vanchithartha pradayini She who gives what is desired 990 Abhyasathisaya gnatha She who can be realized by constant practice 991 Shaddwatheetha roopini She who supersedes the six methods of prayers 992 Avyaja karuna moorhy She who shows mercy without reason 993 Agnana dwantha deepika She who is the lamp that drives away ignorance 994 Abala gopa vidhitha She who is worshipped by all right from children and cowherds 995 Sarvan ullangya sasana She whose orders can never be disobeyed 996 Sri chakra raja nilaya She who lives in Srichakra 997 Sri math thripura sundari The beautiful goddess of wealth who is consort of the Lord of Tripura 998 Sri shivaa She who is the eternal peace 999 Shiva shakthaikya roopini She who is unification of Shiva and Shakthi 1000 Lalithambika The easily approachable mother Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. From amitrbasu50 at yahoo.co.in Thu Sep 20 20:23:55 2007 From: amitrbasu50 at yahoo.co.in (Amit Basu) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:53:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] tarapadobabu kothay jachchen? In-Reply-To: <34076.24595.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <949272.70314.qm@web8512.mail.in.yahoo.com> dear debjani, thanks a lot for your posting on tarapada ray after his death. i wish we could have make him known among the sarai readers, as his writings on the city (both poetry and prose) are superb. however, even in kolkata, apart from cursory obituaries in the newspapers nothing serious came out about one of the finest bengali writers of the seventies. best amit debjani sengupta wrote: dear dhatri, kothay jachchen has been translated in the piece as 'where are you going'. it may also be marathi as you say. i have no knowledge of marathi so cannot comment. the piece is not about east bengal's history it's about the death of a poet. some deaths diminish all of us. this death does so too. that's why i thought i 'll share my feelings with all of you in the reader list. warm regards, debjani --- we wi wrote: > as per my knowledge 'Kothay Jachchen" is pure > MARATHI word. but tarapadobabu east bengal > history??? > > > debjani sengupta wrote: > A few days ago the poet Tarapada Roy (b 1936) died > in > Kolkata. Curiously for the past week even before I > heard the news, I have been reading his > autobiography > 'Tarapadababu Kothay Jachchen? (Where are you going, > Tarapadababu?) describing his first twenty odd years > as a young boy in Tangail, (now in Bangladesh) and > then his sojourn in Calcutta from 1951. Tarapada Roy > was a poet, a very good one although he was very > modest about the epithet. He often said that when he > saw an envelop marked in his name with the words, > 'the > poet' he felt a deep thrill. He was also a wonderful > short story writer, many of them satires or plain > 'hasyarasatyak' in the vein of Shibram Chakraborty > or > Syed Mujtaba Ali.But to me Tarapada Roy was also > something else. He was the author of some of the > most > poignant poetry and stories on the Partition of > India > that he had witnessed when he was just ten. In a > story > called 'Joe' he talks of a horse that he and his > brother had looked after and that he had to abandon > when they left East Bengal for ever. And in a short > poem written in 1967 the poet describes his first > view > of the city where he comes to live: > > > Do you remember, Kolkata > That green passport, my dark green shirt; > Arriving, drenched, at Sealdah Main > That day on the train from the border > I saw a shoeshine boy for the first time in my life. > > It was a thrill, my dream city, > My first tram-car, my earliest first-class, > First class Kolkata, > Where pet clouds hover over every roof. > Within every window > A mystery of darkness and light. > My green shirt, my ragged shoes, > Fear in every step. > Madmen with beggars, beggars with drunks, > Processions, rainbow hued, horizon stretching. > The crowded teashops, the futile mob on the road. > On windy afternoons dry leaves scatter, > In the sunlight, tram tracks glisten > Pale as ivory, > Reaching nowhere. > Sometimes I feel, > I am no longer within your limits, > Nowhere can I find that city of mine > Where, between two lamp-posts, in a long penalty > kick > Someone sends the football moon to space > While shadowy figures in the gallery yell,’ Goal, > goal.’ > > These twenty years, > I have found nothing in common with you, Kolkata. > My torn dreams, my ragged pieces of poetry > In dirty paper bags the tramps > Have collected them all. > Those dream-words > Have been sold like rubbish. > Not a single mystery window opened anywhere > Nowhere could I reach the clouds on the roofs. > Only the color of my shirt, > My shoe size changed, > Needlessly. > > (That Green Passport: Tarapada Roy) > > It was also curious that two days ago I heard > Etienne > Balibar speak on citizenship that he locates within > the fundamental right of circulation. Balibar > stressed > how the notions of a 'citizen' was being transformed > within the ontological paradoxes of globalization. > In > post national times, borders have become blurred, > meaningless and ubiquitous populations have emerged > who are truly citizens of the roads. They are > citizens > who are partially free from territoriality, a new > class of transnational performers who are nomadic. I > couldnt help but think of Roy's poem when I was > listening to the exposition. Borders have a real > presence in so many of our lives, more so when in > our > minds they dont exist at all. The underclass of > refugees who came to West Bengal in the aftermath of > the Partition had few political rights. Theirs was a > right to live but that right was circumscribed by > the > politics of space.Tarapada Roy belonged to such a > nomadic citizenship marked by belonging and not > belonging. The question 'Kothay Jachchen > Tarapadababu?' thus has a special resonance in my > mind > today; it is question that I catch myself asking > often. Where are we off too? > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? > Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and > hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: Dr. Amit Ranjan Basu BE 318, Salt Lake, Kolkata-700064, India. Tel: +91-033-2334 9805 --------------------------------- Flying to Bangalore or Bhopal? Search for tickets here. From turbulence at turbulence.org Fri Sep 21 02:47:27 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:17:27 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Interview: Janet Cardiff and George Bures Miller Message-ID: <011a01c7fbcb$a5e85c70$f1b91550$@org> Interview: Janet Cardiff and George Bures Miller by Peter Traub Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review September 20, 2007 Janet Cardiff and George Bures Miller create multimedia pieces that combine aspects of sculpture, cinema, sound installation, and short-story fiction. Installations such as "The Paradise Institute" (2001) use forced perspective and a three-dimensional sound track to create the illusion that one is sitting in a large theater. Their 'sound walks' and 'video walks' are immersive pieces that use common consumer technologies, such as iPods and video cameras, to create experiences that blur the line between experienced reality and narrative fiction. Their works are exhibited internationally; their exhibit "The Killing Machine and other stories" will arrive at the Miami Art Museum on October 15, 2007. Read the complete interview here: http://tinyurl.com/2nossl Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 11:45:01 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:45:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fatwa against Salman for attending puja Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709202315id16c0b6i196ef3ff1af1b8e9@mail.gmail.com> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Fatwa_against_Salman_for_attending_Ganesh_puja/articleshow/2388257.cms http://news.sawf.org/Bollywood/42492.aspx From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 12:35:11 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] How true is Justice Sabharwal? Probe demanded. (Plagiarised?) In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30709201035v5fc697b5xca8d259e2ac90869@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <747175.57453.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shivam Is the "plagiarism" charge on Abhishek Behl specific to his article "How true is Justice Sabharwal? Probe demanded". Where has it been "plagiarised" from? In his article Abhishek has mentioned the following: """"The document (press release), is reproduced verbatim, issued by Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR), on Wednesday: """"" You must be having good reasons for the "plagiarism" accusation. Kshmendra Kaul Shivam Vij wrote: Dear Bikash, Thanks for posting this here. If you happen to know Mr Abhishek Behl, please tell him that plagiarism may not be as bad as nepotism by a Chief Justice but it is still criminal. No doubt you will find this on "merinews," which is sadly falls lowest in terms of online credibility. best shivam On 9/20/07, Bikash Ballabh Singh wrote: > Former Chief Justice of India (CJI) Justice YK Sabarwal is in the midst of a > controversy, with senior lawyers and former CJIs demanding a probe into the > allegations. A Report... > > by Abhishek Behl > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=126536 > > HE SEALED the fate of many a people in Delhi, with his strict orders on > 'Sealing' the illegal buildings in the Indian capital. > > But 'sealing' today came back to haunt the former Chief Justice of India > (CJI), Justice Y K Sabharwal, when questions were raised over his > professional conduct into the entire sealing episode. > > Raising serious allegations over the professional demeanour of the former > CJI, the Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR), > a group of jurists and social activists, demanded a probe into the manner in > which his Lordship accrued pecuniary benefits for his sons, through his > judicial orders over the sealing issue, on Wednesday (September 19). > > We need to approach the serious allegations against the former CJI with > caution and care. Is Justice Sabharwal being singled out for some reason or > is there any iota of truth in these charges? In fact, a section of the legal > fraternity feels that Justice Sabharwal should himself demand an impartial > probe into the serious allegations. They added that other former CJIs, > judges and senior lawyers' demand for a fair probe into these charges needs > to be viewed in the light of utter fairness and objectivity. > > Addressing media persons in Delhi, senior lawyer Prashant Bhushan demanded > that an independent probe should be ordered by the Supreme Court of India to > find out the truth. > > "We want the truth to come out and for this the Supreme Court has to take > the lead", he said, alleging that Justice Sabharwal's two sons had colluded > with the builders to take advantage of the real estate market influenced by > the sealing drive. > > Making a point-by-point rebuttal of Justice Sabharwal's statement published > in the media, Prashant demanded that the Justice Sabharwal be charged under > prevention of corruption act. > > The Judicial Reforms Group further stated that they would initiate an > independent inquiry if the Supreme Court did nothing in this regard. > > A time of reckoning for Indian Judiciary has come and it is time the Apex > Court rises to the occasion and faces the challenge, said former Law > Minister and veteran lawyer, Shanti Bhushan. > > "A number of former Chief Justices including Justice V K Krishna Iyer, > Justice PB Sawant, Justice JC Verma have called for a probe into this matter > and same will bring forth the truth. > > Noted social activists Swami Agnivesh and Arvind Kejriwal, who were present > on the occasion, also demanded an impartial probe into the affairs of > Justice Sabharwal. > > On this occasion, a document, in the form of a press release, was issued by > the Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms detailing the > alleged irregularities. > > Here it must be mentioned that former Chief Justices of India including > Justice J C Verma, Justice VN Khare, Justice PB Sawant and Justice V R > Krishna Iyer had called for a voluntary probe to put an end to this > controversy. They had said that an independent probe would bring out the > truth and restore the credibility of Indian judiciary. > > A few days earlier, Justice Sabharwal had, however, strongly denied any > wrongdoing on his part or on the part of his two sons, in the media. > > The document (press release), is reproduced verbatim, issued by Campaign for > Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR), on Wednesday: > > Justice Sabharwal finally broke his silence in a signed piece in the Times > of India. His defence proceeds by ignoring and sidestepping the inconvenient > and emphasizing the irrelevant if it can evoke sympathy. To examine the > adequacy of his defence, we need to see his defence against the gravamen of > each charge against him. > > *Charge No. 1:* That his son's companies had shifted their registered > offices to his official residence. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That as soon as he came to know he ordered > his son's to shift it back. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* This is False. In April 2007, in a recorded interview > with the Midday reporter MK Tayal he feigned total ignorance of the shifting > of the offices to his official residence. Copy of the CD containing the said > conversation is attached hereto as Annexure I. In fact, the registered > offices were shifted back from his official residence to his Punjabi Bagh > residence exactly on the day that the BPTP mall developers became his sons' > partners, making it very risky to continue at his official residence. Copies > of the document showing the date of induction of Kabul Chawla, the promoter > and owner of BPTP in Pawan Impex Pvt. Ltd., one of the companies of Jutstice > Sabharwal's sons, and Form no. 18 showing the shifting of the registered > office from the official residence of Justice Sabharwal to his family > residence on 23rd October 2004 are attached hereto as Annexure II (Colly). > > *Charge No. 2:* That he called for and dealt with the sealing of commercial > property case in March 2005, though it was not assigned to him. It is only > the Chief Justice who can assign pending cases to various judges. He was not > the CJI at that time. Copy of the order dated 17th March 2005 is attached > hereto as Annexure III. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* Justice Sabharwal does not answer this > charge. > > *Charge No. 3:* That he did this exactly around the time that his sons got > into partnerships with Mall and commercial complex developers, who stood to > benefit from his sealing orders. The chain of events is as follows: > > On 23rd October 2004, Kabul Chawla, the promoter of one of the biggest > developers of shopping malls and commercial complexes, was inducted in Pawan > Impex as a 50% shareholder and Director. On 12.02.2005, Kabul Chawla's wife, > Anjali Chawla was also inducted as Director of Pawan Impex. On 17th March > 2005, Justice Sabharwal ordered that the case dealing with the sealing of > commercial establishments should also be heard along with the writ of M.C. > Mehta, which was being heard by him. On 8th April 2005, Chetan Sabharwal and > Nitin Sabharwal, two sons of Justice Sabharwal, set up another company, > Harpawan Constructors, with the object of constructing Commercial complexes. > On 25th October 2005, Purshottam Bagheria, one of the big builders on > shopping malls and commercial complexes of Delhi was inducted as a partner > in Harpwan Construtors. On 16th Februrary 2006, Justice Y. K. Sabharwal, who > by that time had become the Chief Justice of India, passed a detailed order > in the aforementioned case setting into motion the demolition and sealing in > Delhi. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That they were his sons friends. That > Harpawan Constructors, which was set up by his sons with the Mall developer > Purshottam Bagheria did not do any business. In fact the courts under him > got Bagheria's 1 MG road mall demolished. That his sons are not developing > shopping malls but only an IT Park. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* If so many Mall and commercial complex developers were > his sons' close friends, then he should not have dealt with the case anyway > since that creates an immediate conflict of interest. Moreover, why should > they go into partnership with these developers who stood to benefit from > Justice Sabharwal's orders, and that too exactly at the time when he seizes > control of the sealing of commercial property case and starts dealing with > it. He says that the company set up by his sons in partnership with Bagheria > has not done any business. If so, why was this new company set up for > developing commercial complexes in partnership with this builder? In an > interview with ZNews Justice Sabhawal claims credit for the judiciary under > him ordering the demolition of the illegal 1 MG road mall owned by Bagheria. > But then why do his sons enter into partnerships with such an illegal > builder whose buildings have had to be demolished by the Judiciary? And > immediately after this partnership with the Sabharwals, Bagheria went on to > announce the construction of "Square 1 mall" in Saket as the most > fashionable mall in India. And all the fashion designers who had their shops > and outlets at 1 MG road went on to buy space in the Square I mall. What is > important to note here is that Bagheria and his partners at 1 MG road had > already parted with all the space on 1 MG Road. The demolition thus hurt the > designers and others who had bought shops there, but did not hurt Bagheria > who may have in fact benefited from it by clearing the land of his tenants > and getting them to buy space at his new malls at Saket and elsewhere. > An IT park is also a commercial complex like any other. Many commercial > establishments sealed were IT centres and BPOs, which were forced to buy > space in, IT parks like that being constructed by his sons and their > partners. > > *Charge No. 4:* That the Union Bank of India gave a loan of 28 crores to his > sons' company Pavan Impex on a collateral of plant and machinery and other > moveables at the site of their proposed IT Park, which were non-existent. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response*: That his sons' had a credit facility of 75 > crores. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* If that were the case, what was the need for mortgaging > non-existent assets for obtaining this loan? Moreover, the Banks' senior > manager is on record saying that the loan was given on the basis of > projected sales to prospective customers. The conversation with the Bank > Manager is in the CD attached hereto as Annexure I. > > *Charge No. 5:* That because of the obvious conflict of interest, he could > not have dealt with this case. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That his orders have never benefited his > sons. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* His orders of sealing lakhs of commercial properties > clearly forced those establishments to buy or rent space in commercial > complexes like those that his sons' companies were constructing; and > shopping malls etc that their friends and partners were constructing. There > was a clear conflict of interest and his orders have clearly benefited his > sons and their partners. > > *Charge No. 6:* That a large number of industrial and commercial plots were > allotted in Noida by the UP government to his sons' companies, at prices far > below the market price. In particular several huge plots were allotted > between December 2004 and November 2006 by the Mulayam Singh/Amar Singh > government, while he was dealing with Amar Singh's tapes case, and had > stayed the publication of those tapes on the behest of Amar Singh. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That some of the plots were allotted by > earlier different governments. That the prices were not far below the market > price. That the allotments were made in the normal course to his sons who > were entrepreneurs and were providing employment to hundreds of people in > Noida. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* Even if one were to look at only the last two > allotments of 12,000 metres each made in December 2004 and November 2006, > made by the Mulayam Singh/Amar Singh governments, it is obvious that the > allotments are definitely not in the normal course. Consider the allotment > to Pawan Impex. The company has Nil turnover and Nil business (as declared > in their application) on the date of application on 30/12/04. The very next > day they receive a letter from Noida Authority asking them to come for an > interview within 4 days on 5/11/04. On that day the authority notes that > they want 12,000 sq m in Sector 125 or Sector 132. The minutes note that > because the work of development of Sector 125 is not complete and because in > sector 132 the plot size available is only upto 11,000 sq metres, the matter > is deferred for the next meeting. In the next meeting on 13/12/04, though > Sector 125 is still not developed, a decision is taken to allot them a > 12,000 Sq. metre plot in Sector 125 for a BPO. All this without a word about > how and why a company with nil business is worthy of being allotted one of > the largest plots of 12,000 sq. meters. The previous application of M/s > Softedge Solutions Pvt. Ltd for an IT park is rejected on the ground that > they could not satisfactorily answer questions about their previous > experience in IT and their technical tie up. But Pawan Impex represented by > Chetan Sabharwal with Nil business, no previous track record in IT and no > technical tie up sails through with no questions asked. All in the normal > course, of course! Copies of the profit and loss accounts of Pawan Impex > Pvt. Ltd. for the year ended 31.03.2003 and 31.03.2004 showing its income > nil are attached hereto as Annexure IV (Colly). Justice Sabharwal says that > the allotment price of Rs. 3,700/sq M was not below the market price. The > current circle rate in Sector 125 is Rs. 11,000/sq metre and the market > price is over Rs. 30,000/sq meter there. > > Similarly, the huge plot of 3 acres, No. 12 A in Sector 68 alloted to Sabs > Exports in November 2006 at a throw away price of Rs. 4000 per square meter > is also not in the normal course and was similarly made within days of > application and a bogus interview, without any other system. Today, within > 10 months of allotment, even the circle rate of plots in Sector 68 is Rs. > 8,000 per sq. meter and the market rate is Rs. 20-22,000 per sq. meter. > Moreover this allotment has been made at a time when he was dealing with > Amar Singh's tapes case and had stayed the publication of the tapes. > > *Charge No. 7:* That his sons have purchased a 1150 square meter house in > Maharani bagh, New Delhi in March 2007 for a consideration of 15.46 crores. > The source of money for this is unexplained and in the sale deed they seek > to conceal their relationship with Justice Sabharwal by writing his name as > Yogesh Kumar and giving their factory address instead of the residential > address. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That 90 per cent of the money for the > purchase of this house was from four banks; that his sons concealed his full > name in the sale deed in order to avoid taking advantage of their > association with him. > * * > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* Banks do not normally advance loans of 90% of the value > of a property on its security. Otherwise they would end up holding > inadequate security if the property prices fall by even 15%. If they have > done so in this case, it is either because of an undue favour as in the case > of the loan of 28 Crores to Pawan Impex, or they valued the property higher > than the declared purchase price. His explanation for concealing his name in > the sale deed is hilarious and unbelievable since his sons did not hesitate > to use his official residence as the registered office of their companies. > Moreover, this was in a registered sale deed with a private party, where > there was no occasion for taking any advantage by using his name. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Sep 21 14:45:44 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:45:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Breaking news, breaking lives Message-ID: <9c06aab30709210215i7e61cd1wcd122a07f3a853e1@mail.gmail.com> As fifty new news channels across the country - that's right, 50 odd - are in the offing, TV news is increasingly making news, and a top TV editors Facebook status says she is sick of TV news. Welcome to reality TV. A crime reporter yesterday became the reported. She ended her life thanks to her seniors in a channel appropriately called "Total TV". Some print reports this morning hesitate from naming those she named in her suicide note. Keep watching. Shivam Noida suicide - cops look for TV channel executives Press Trust Of India Noida, September 21, 2007 First Published: 02:41 IST(21/9/2007) Last Updated: 03:28 IST(21/9/2007) http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=9523ce1c-97e2-4bef-ab2b-ea89ea351611&&Headline=Noida+suicide+-+cops+look+for+TV+channel+executives Police were on the lookout for two executives of a TV news channel named in a suicide note by reporter Priya Singh, who was found hanging from a ceiling fan at a house here even as the channel on Thursday expressed "surprise" over the incident. Handwriting experts were examining the suicide note found in the Sector 19 flat yesterday to verify whether was that of 23-year-old Priya while the post-mortem report has confirmed she died of "aspixiation due to hanging", police officials said. They said a police team was sent to arrest the two executives, output editor Tapan Bharati and executive producer Umesh, but they were not in their houses. The body of Priya, who was earlier an anchor in the TV channel, was cremated at Antim Niwas in this city after her parents arrived from Jammu and Kashmir where her father Babban Singh, an army officer, is posted. The police had also questioned the landlord of the house shared by Singh and her friend Tanuja, a software engineer, and some colleagues at the TV channel, the officials said. A channel spokesman said they were "surprised to see the names" of the two executives on the suicide note. "Priya never complained about any executive or anybody else to the director or other staff. She never gave any inkling of any resentment with any member," he said. The family who hails from Lucknow has demanded a thorough investigation into Priya's death. From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 17:59:16 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:29:16 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Rama as a kudikaran In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709202218l3387c541r43eec81cd16ea880@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709202218l3387c541r43eec81cd16ea880@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46F3B91C.5010009@googlemail.com> Pawan, I am not in VASP, but hope it's still ok for me to offer my two bits. I am not sure who you think should be condemned - Karunanidhi or Valmiki? The story at the link you have forwarded says Karunanidhi says Valmiki called Ram "a kudikaran (drunkard)". If Valmiki did *not* call Ram "kudikaran", Karunanidhi needs to be condemned right away, no questions asked. On the other hand, if Valmiki did, there can be no question of condemning Karunanidhi, even if you hate his dark glasses or his shawl - or, as in my case, his determination to destroy the strait's marine ecology. The issue of condemnation then shifts to poor old Valmiki who, I'm sure, would have loved the spectacle of his trial by the censors. Questions then arise: What exactly did "kudikaran" mean in Valmiki's time? Did it really mean "drunkard" as the story suggests? If it did mean "drunkard", in what context was the term used? (I hope you will agree that there can be no interpretation of a text without reference to context.) If it did, did "drunkard" mean quite the same thing in Valmiki's time as it does now? But what does it mean now? For some people, taking a single drink is enough to label one a drunkard. For others, a drunkard is someone who is, or is tending to become, an alcoholic. So, where do we stand? Tapas Pawan Durani wrote: > No words from the elite intellectuals [ VASP ] ....not even a condemnation > ! > > http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE920070920132940&Headline=Valmiki+said+Ram+was+a+drunkard:+Karunanidhi&Title=Chennai&Topic=0 From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 19:16:06 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Rama as a kudikaran In-Reply-To: <46F3B91C.5010009@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <167976.86800.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> How do people trust karunanidhi and care about his words? Its our sadness to see such a person re-elected as chief minister? The entire India know about the Jayalalitha episode and later incidents? Its a pity to humanity, forget ethics,faith,morality,belief ,mythology whatever. Sethusamudram project is the recovery stunt of the money that he invested to distrubte colour TV'S during the last election. He was a poet during his younger age, just imagine how violent he used to write and think. How can sarai people compare karunanidhi and valmiki. Let me describe him as a modern day deamon. Instead of spending time at VAANAPRASTHA what kind of governace will he give At the age of 88. Is he so kind and good to reelect again and again. Actually after 60 anybody should be thrown out of whatever power. This amendment should be included in the Constitution. If need comes and system thinks about to use the experience of the 60 years, then just upto suggestion level is allowed and implementation, execution should be in the hands of system. Regards, Dhatri. Pawan, I am not in VASP, but hope it's still ok for me to offer my two bits. I am not sure who you think should be condemned - Karunanidhi or Valmiki? The story at the link you have forwarded says Karunanidhi says Valmiki called Ram "a kudikaran (drunkard)". If Valmiki did *not* call Ram "kudikaran", Karunanidhi needs to be condemned right away, no questions asked. On the other hand, if Valmiki did, there can be no question of condemning Karunanidhi, even if you hate his dark glasses or his shawl - or, as in my case, his determination to destroy the strait's marine ecology. The issue of condemnation then shifts to poor old Valmiki who, I'm sure, would have loved the spectacle of his trial by the censors. Questions then arise: What exactly did "kudikaran" mean in Valmiki's time? Did it really mean "drunkard" as the story suggests? If it did mean "drunkard", in what context was the term used? (I hope you will agree that there can be no interpretation of a text without reference to context.) If it did, did "drunkard" mean quite the same thing in Valmiki's time as it does now? But what does it mean now? For some people, taking a single drink is enough to label one a drunkard. For others, a drunkard is someone who is, or is tending to become, an alcoholic. So, where do we stand? Tapas Pawan Durani wrote: > No words from the elite intellectuals [ VASP ] ....not even a condemnation > ! > > http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE920070920132940&Headline=Valmiki+said+Ram+was+a+drunkard:+Karunanidhi&Title=Chennai&Topic=0 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 19:41:42 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:11:42 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Rama as a kudikaran In-Reply-To: <167976.86800.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <167976.86800.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46F3D11E.9080807@googlemail.com> Dhatri, I assume you were responding to my post, because it is quoted in your response. But I do not see any reference to the issues I raised. I am a little confused. Best, Tapas we wi wrote: > How do people trust karunanidhi and care about his words? Its our sadness to see such a person re-elected as chief minister? The entire India know about the Jayalalitha episode and later incidents? Its a pity to humanity, forget ethics,faith,morality,belief ,mythology whatever. > Sethusamudram project is the recovery stunt of the money that he invested to distrubte colour TV'S during the last election. > He was a poet during his younger age, just imagine how violent he used to write and think. How can sarai people compare karunanidhi and valmiki. Let me describe him as a modern day deamon. Instead of spending time at VAANAPRASTHA what kind of governace will he give At the age of 88. Is he so kind and good to reelect again and again. > Actually after 60 anybody should be thrown out of whatever power. This amendment should be included in the Constitution. If need comes and system thinks about to use the experience of the 60 years, then just upto suggestion level is allowed and implementation, execution should be in the hands of system. > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > Pawan, > > I am not in VASP, but hope it's still ok for me to offer my two bits. > > I am not sure who you think should be condemned - Karunanidhi or Valmiki? > > The story at the link you have forwarded says Karunanidhi says Valmiki > called Ram "a kudikaran (drunkard)". If Valmiki did *not* call Ram > "kudikaran", Karunanidhi needs to be condemned right away, no questions > asked. > > On the other hand, if Valmiki did, there can be no question of > condemning Karunanidhi, even if you hate his dark glasses or his shawl - > or, as in my case, his determination to destroy the strait's marine > ecology. > > The issue of condemnation then shifts to poor old Valmiki who, I'm sure, > would have loved the spectacle of his trial by the censors. > > Questions then arise: > > What exactly did "kudikaran" mean in Valmiki's time? Did it really mean > "drunkard" as the story suggests? > > If it did mean "drunkard", in what context was the term used? (I hope > you will agree that there can be no interpretation of a text without > reference to context.) > > If it did, did "drunkard" mean quite the same thing in Valmiki's time as > it does now? > > But what does it mean now? For some people, taking a single drink is > enough to label one a drunkard. For others, a drunkard is someone who > is, or is tending to become, an alcoholic. > > So, where do we stand? > > Tapas > > > Pawan Durani wrote: >> No words from the elite intellectuals [ VASP ] ....not even a condemnation >> ! >> >> http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE920070920132940&Headline=Valmiki+said+Ram+was+a+drunkard:+Karunanidhi&Title=Chennai&Topic=0 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vikash.sen at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 19:50:22 2007 From: vikash.sen at gmail.com (Bikash Ballabh Singh) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 19:50:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How true is Justice Sabharwal? Probe demanded. In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30709201035v5fc697b5xca8d259e2ac90869@mail.gmail.com> References: <25c340bd0709201022p394a6f55wf32971544bf0570a@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30709201035v5fc697b5xca8d259e2ac90869@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <25c340bd0709210720w57936ff3ua1a93aa37c7de0ea@mail.gmail.com> Hi shivam, I'm in montreal & merinews have a good space in NRIS & how you say this is a case of plagiarism. On 9/20/07, Shivam Vij wrote: > > Dear Bikash, > > Thanks for posting this here. If you happen to know Mr Abhishek Behl, > please tell him that plagiarism may not be as bad as nepotism by a > Chief Justice but it is still criminal. No doubt you will find this on > "merinews," which is sadly falls lowest in terms of online > credibility. > best > shivam > > On 9/20/07, Bikash Ballabh Singh wrote: > > Former Chief Justice of India (CJI) Justice YK Sabarwal is in the midst > of a > > controversy, with senior lawyers and former CJIs demanding a probe into > the > > allegations. A Report... > > > > by Abhishek Behl > > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=126536 > > > > HE SEALED the fate of many a people in Delhi, with his strict orders on > > 'Sealing' the illegal buildings in the Indian capital. > > > > But 'sealing' today came back to haunt the former Chief Justice of India > > (CJI), Justice Y K Sabharwal, when questions were raised over his > > professional conduct into the entire sealing episode. > > > > Raising serious allegations over the professional demeanour of the > former > > CJI, the Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms > (CJAJR), > > a group of jurists and social activists, demanded a probe into the > manner in > > which his Lordship accrued pecuniary benefits for his sons, through his > > judicial orders over the sealing issue, on Wednesday (September 19). > > > > We need to approach the serious allegations against the former CJI with > > caution and care. Is Justice Sabharwal being singled out for some reason > or > > is there any iota of truth in these charges? In fact, a section of the > legal > > fraternity feels that Justice Sabharwal should himself demand an > impartial > > probe into the serious allegations. They added that other former CJIs, > > judges and senior lawyers' demand for a fair probe into these charges > needs > > to be viewed in the light of utter fairness and objectivity. > > > > Addressing media persons in Delhi, senior lawyer Prashant Bhushan > demanded > > that an independent probe should be ordered by the Supreme Court of > India to > > find out the truth. > > > > "We want the truth to come out and for this the Supreme Court has to > take > > the lead", he said, alleging that Justice Sabharwal's two sons had > colluded > > with the builders to take advantage of the real estate market influenced > by > > the sealing drive. > > > > Making a point-by-point rebuttal of Justice Sabharwal's statement > published > > in the media, Prashant demanded that the Justice Sabharwal be charged > under > > prevention of corruption act. > > > > The Judicial Reforms Group further stated that they would initiate an > > independent inquiry if the Supreme Court did nothing in this regard. > > > > A time of reckoning for Indian Judiciary has come and it is time the > Apex > > Court rises to the occasion and faces the challenge, said former Law > > Minister and veteran lawyer, Shanti Bhushan. > > > > "A number of former Chief Justices including Justice V K Krishna Iyer, > > Justice PB Sawant, Justice JC Verma have called for a probe into this > matter > > and same will bring forth the truth. > > > > Noted social activists Swami Agnivesh and Arvind Kejriwal, who were > present > > on the occasion, also demanded an impartial probe into the affairs of > > Justice Sabharwal. > > > > On this occasion, a document, in the form of a press release, was issued > by > > the Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms detailing > the > > alleged irregularities. > > > > Here it must be mentioned that former Chief Justices of India including > > Justice J C Verma, Justice VN Khare, Justice PB Sawant and Justice V R > > Krishna Iyer had called for a voluntary probe to put an end to this > > controversy. They had said that an independent probe would bring out the > > truth and restore the credibility of Indian judiciary. > > > > A few days earlier, Justice Sabharwal had, however, strongly denied any > > wrongdoing on his part or on the part of his two sons, in the media. > > > > The document (press release), is reproduced verbatim, issued by Campaign > for > > Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR), on Wednesday: > > > > Justice Sabharwal finally broke his silence in a signed piece in the > Times > > of India. His defence proceeds by ignoring and sidestepping the > inconvenient > > and emphasizing the irrelevant if it can evoke sympathy. To examine the > > adequacy of his defence, we need to see his defence against the gravamen > of > > each charge against him. > > > > *Charge No. 1:* That his son's companies had shifted their registered > > offices to his official residence. > > > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That as soon as he came to know he > ordered > > his son's to shift it back. > > > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* This is False. In April 2007, in a recorded > interview > > with the Midday reporter MK Tayal he feigned total ignorance of the > shifting > > of the offices to his official residence. Copy of the CD containing the > said > > conversation is attached hereto as Annexure I. In fact, the registered > > offices were shifted back from his official residence to his Punjabi > Bagh > > residence exactly on the day that the BPTP mall developers became his > sons' > > partners, making it very risky to continue at his official residence. > Copies > > of the document showing the date of induction of Kabul Chawla, the > promoter > > and owner of BPTP in Pawan Impex Pvt. Ltd., one of the companies of > Jutstice > > Sabharwal's sons, and Form no. 18 showing the shifting of the registered > > office from the official residence of Justice Sabharwal to his family > > residence on 23rd October 2004 are attached hereto as Annexure II > (Colly). > > > > *Charge No. 2:* That he called for and dealt with the sealing of > commercial > > property case in March 2005, though it was not assigned to him. It is > only > > the Chief Justice who can assign pending cases to various judges. He was > not > > the CJI at that time. Copy of the order dated 17th March 2005 is > attached > > hereto as Annexure III. > > > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* Justice Sabharwal does not answer this > > charge. > > > > *Charge No. 3:* That he did this exactly around the time that his sons > got > > into partnerships with Mall and commercial complex developers, who stood > to > > benefit from his sealing orders. The chain of events is as follows: > > > > On 23rd October 2004, Kabul Chawla, the promoter of one of the biggest > > developers of shopping malls and commercial complexes, was inducted in > Pawan > > Impex as a 50% shareholder and Director. On 12.02.2005, Kabul Chawla's > wife, > > Anjali Chawla was also inducted as Director of Pawan Impex. On 17th > March > > 2005, Justice Sabharwal ordered that the case dealing with the sealing > of > > commercial establishments should also be heard along with the writ of > M.C. > > Mehta, which was being heard by him. On 8th April 2005, Chetan Sabharwal > and > > Nitin Sabharwal, two sons of Justice Sabharwal, set up another company, > > Harpawan Constructors, with the object of constructing Commercial > complexes. > > On 25th October 2005, Purshottam Bagheria, one of the big builders on > > shopping malls and commercial complexes of Delhi was inducted as a > partner > > in Harpwan Construtors. On 16th Februrary 2006, Justice Y. K. Sabharwal, > who > > by that time had become the Chief Justice of India, passed a detailed > order > > in the aforementioned case setting into motion the demolition and > sealing in > > Delhi. > > > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That they were his sons friends. That > > Harpawan Constructors, which was set up by his sons with the Mall > developer > > Purshottam Bagheria did not do any business. In fact the courts under > him > > got Bagheria's 1 MG road mall demolished. That his sons are not > developing > > shopping malls but only an IT Park. > > > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* If so many Mall and commercial complex developers > were > > his sons' close friends, then he should not have dealt with the case > anyway > > since that creates an immediate conflict of interest. Moreover, why > should > > they go into partnership with these developers who stood to benefit from > > Justice Sabharwal's orders, and that too exactly at the time when he > seizes > > control of the sealing of commercial property case and starts dealing > with > > it. He says that the company set up by his sons in partnership with > Bagheria > > has not done any business. If so, why was this new company set up for > > developing commercial complexes in partnership with this builder? In an > > interview with ZNews Justice Sabhawal claims credit for the judiciary > under > > him ordering the demolition of the illegal 1 MG road mall owned by > Bagheria. > > But then why do his sons enter into partnerships with such an illegal > > builder whose buildings have had to be demolished by the Judiciary? And > > immediately after this partnership with the Sabharwals, Bagheria went on > to > > announce the construction of "Square 1 mall" in Saket as the most > > fashionable mall in India. And all the fashion designers who had their > shops > > and outlets at 1 MG road went on to buy space in the Square I mall. What > is > > important to note here is that Bagheria and his partners at 1 MG road > had > > already parted with all the space on 1 MG Road. The demolition thus hurt > the > > designers and others who had bought shops there, but did not hurt > Bagheria > > who may have in fact benefited from it by clearing the land of his > tenants > > and getting them to buy space at his new malls at Saket and elsewhere. > > An IT park is also a commercial complex like any other. Many commercial > > establishments sealed were IT centres and BPOs, which were forced to buy > > space in, IT parks like that being constructed by his sons and their > > partners. > > > > *Charge No. 4:* That the Union Bank of India gave a loan of 28 crores to > his > > sons' company Pavan Impex on a collateral of plant and machinery and > other > > moveables at the site of their proposed IT Park, which were > non-existent. > > > > *Justice Sabharwal's response*: That his sons' had a credit facility of > 75 > > crores. > > > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* If that were the case, what was the need for > mortgaging > > non-existent assets for obtaining this loan? Moreover, the Banks' senior > > manager is on record saying that the loan was given on the basis of > > projected sales to prospective customers. The conversation with the Bank > > Manager is in the CD attached hereto as Annexure I. > > > > *Charge No. 5:* That because of the obvious conflict of interest, he > could > > not have dealt with this case. > > > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That his orders have never benefited his > > sons. > > > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* His orders of sealing lakhs of commercial > properties > > clearly forced those establishments to buy or rent space in commercial > > complexes like those that his sons' companies were constructing; and > > shopping malls etc that their friends and partners were constructing. > There > > was a clear conflict of interest and his orders have clearly benefited > his > > sons and their partners. > > > > *Charge No. 6:* That a large number of industrial and commercial plots > were > > allotted in Noida by the UP government to his sons' companies, at prices > far > > below the market price. In particular several huge plots were allotted > > between December 2004 and November 2006 by the Mulayam Singh/Amar Singh > > government, while he was dealing with Amar Singh's tapes case, and had > > stayed the publication of those tapes on the behest of Amar Singh. > > > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That some of the plots were allotted by > > earlier different governments. That the prices were not far below the > market > > price. That the allotments were made in the normal course to his sons > who > > were entrepreneurs and were providing employment to hundreds of people > in > > Noida. > > > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* Even if one were to look at only the last two > > allotments of 12,000 metres each made in December 2004 and November > 2006, > > made by the Mulayam Singh/Amar Singh governments, it is obvious that the > > allotments are definitely not in the normal course. Consider the > allotment > > to Pawan Impex. The company has Nil turnover and Nil business (as > declared > > in their application) on the date of application on 30/12/04. The very > next > > day they receive a letter from Noida Authority asking them to come for > an > > interview within 4 days on 5/11/04. On that day the authority notes that > > they want 12,000 sq m in Sector 125 or Sector 132. The minutes note that > > because the work of development of Sector 125 is not complete and > because in > > sector 132 the plot size available is only upto 11,000 sq metres, the > matter > > is deferred for the next meeting. In the next meeting on 13/12/04, > though > > Sector 125 is still not developed, a decision is taken to allot them a > > 12,000 Sq. metre plot in Sector 125 for a BPO. All this without a word > about > > how and why a company with nil business is worthy of being allotted one > of > > the largest plots of 12,000 sq. meters. The previous application of M/s > > Softedge Solutions Pvt. Ltd for an IT park is rejected on the ground > that > > they could not satisfactorily answer questions about their previous > > experience in IT and their technical tie up. But Pawan Impex represented > by > > Chetan Sabharwal with Nil business, no previous track record in IT and > no > > technical tie up sails through with no questions asked. All in the > normal > > course, of course! Copies of the profit and loss accounts of Pawan Impex > > Pvt. Ltd. for the year ended 31.03.2003 and 31.03.2004 showing its > income > > nil are attached hereto as Annexure IV (Colly). Justice Sabharwal says > that > > the allotment price of Rs. 3,700/sq M was not below the market price. > The > > current circle rate in Sector 125 is Rs. 11,000/sq metre and the market > > price is over Rs. 30,000/sq meter there. > > > > Similarly, the huge plot of 3 acres, No. 12 A in Sector 68 alloted to > Sabs > > Exports in November 2006 at a throw away price of Rs. 4000 per square > meter > > is also not in the normal course and was similarly made within days of > > application and a bogus interview, without any other system. Today, > within > > 10 months of allotment, even the circle rate of plots in Sector 68 is > Rs. > > 8,000 per sq. meter and the market rate is Rs. 20-22,000 per sq. meter. > > Moreover this allotment has been made at a time when he was dealing with > > Amar Singh's tapes case and had stayed the publication of the tapes. > > > > *Charge No. 7:* That his sons have purchased a 1150 square meter house > in > > Maharani bagh, New Delhi in March 2007 for a consideration of 15.46crores. > > The source of money for this is unexplained and in the sale deed they > seek > > to conceal their relationship with Justice Sabharwal by writing his name > as > > Yogesh Kumar and giving their factory address instead of the residential > > address. > > > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That 90 per cent of the money for the > > purchase of this house was from four banks; that his sons concealed his > full > > name in the sale deed in order to avoid taking advantage of their > > association with him. > > * * > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* Banks do not normally advance loans of 90% of the > value > > of a property on its security. Otherwise they would end up holding > > inadequate security if the property prices fall by even 15%. If they > have > > done so in this case, it is either because of an undue favour as in the > case > > of the loan of 28 Crores to Pawan Impex, or they valued the property > higher > > than the declared purchase price. His explanation for concealing his > name in > > the sale deed is hilarious and unbelievable since his sons did not > hesitate > > to use his official residence as the registered office of their > companies. > > Moreover, this was in a registered sale deed with a private party, where > > there was no occasion for taking any advantage by using his name. > From tarunbhartiya at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 20:15:15 2007 From: tarunbhartiya at gmail.com (Tarun Bhartiya) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:15:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Meri News Message-ID: Just a small censorship incident from Meri News http://kashmirfilm.wordpress.com/2007/04/13/blog-flash-4-blogosphere/ Has a lot to say about Kashmir, Censorship Meri News or Teri News From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 20:36:10 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] publishings of sarai Message-ID: <480076.98560.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> HI Monica, Could you please let me know what are all the places, the sarai will reach openly like the one below. http://readerlist.freeflux.net/blog/archive/2007/09/21/re-reader-list-rama-as-a-kudikaran-3.html Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 20:47:51 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:47:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <46EFC2C0.7010509@googlemail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <46ED9145.20506@sarai.net> <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> <46EE1118.4060608@sarai.net> <9c06aab30709170541s176f09a6pf2a15257cfc79e30@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709171000j47e90a5ahd5b8bb7be9748eb@mail.gmail.com> <46EEC288.1050101@googlemail.com> <6b79f1a70709172056p43eb7fcfgcd6b410f5141571a@mail.gmail.com> <46EFC2C0.7010509@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70709210817g409c6a7exb3ecf792f49dbe87@mail.gmail.com> dear Pawan ji After Shuddha responded ur mail with the opening line : " This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total agreement with Pawan Durani " .....It was just a matter of time that DIL KI BAAT ZUBAN PA AHI GAI Now u write: " Where are Arundhatis and Medhas of this world ? I am sure they dont care about this issue and hence would stay back in their AS rooms polluting the atmosphere" now this includes lot of people. i ask you mr. pawan, Is POLLUTING THE ATMOSPHERE' not unparliamentary, as u expressed in one of your replies to ur mails. Why cant we be decent with the other ? My guess is right, that people who are closer to faith care a little less about ecology and the other. Octavio Paz observes in Monkey Grammerian that people in India people worship 'the wind god' but forget 'the wind'. So, ecology in the deeper sense of the term, which perhaps includes the conceptual understanding about society, environment and other aspects of human mind. I am not saying anything against 'believers' but do we still feel that religion has a cure for all our ills? If so, then India is surely in mess. Please note that ' believers' who live in sync with their respective ecologies care a lot about their surrounding, which is markedly different from the patterns of 'believers' living in big cities. u say, that VHP/BJP is good for you as long as they suit you. No, my dear, it is on the contrary. You are good to them as long it suits them. We need to know, what form faith takes in cities, and exploits the simpler version of it in rural India and elsewhere. I believe, that true lovers of ecology need to be careful about this disguised appropriation by the right wingers. I dont mind being labelled as Left winger, though i am as on date. love is On 9/18/07, Tapas Ray wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > The BJP, VHP. etc., should be shunned because while they fill the void, > they fill it with hate and violence, whereas the issue at hand is life - > survival of an ecosystem and of fisherfolk. If Sethusamudram is > projected as a Hindu issue, why should Muslim or Christian fisherfolk > and others worry about it? If it is an ecological issue and one of > livelihood for fisherfolk regardless of religion, everybody will be > concerned. > > I do not know whether the prominent activists you refer to have taken it > up or not, but if they in deed have not, I would imagine they might be > wary of being viewed as associating themselves with a group that > promotes hate and thrives on violence, and has been openly hostile in > the past (on Narmada, etc.). In other words, I think the cause of > Sethusamudram would have been well served if the BJP and VHP had left it > alone and not turned it into a religious issue. > > I cannot, and do not want to, speak for the communists. But my personal > - and possibly limited - understanding is that they have no concern for > environmental issues whatsoever, just like the Hindutva bloc. In any > stand they take, on any issue, the sole concern is power - namely, > whether it is congruent with the aim of gaining political power or not. > (In my very limited knowledge, this is the legacy of Lenin and Stalin.) > Once one understands this, it is easy to understand every action of > theirs. > > But the question remains - do you think Sethusamudram would deserve your > attention even if there was no mythology attached to it? > > Tapas > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Mr Ray , > > > > I would not have cared for BJP /VHP protesting against Sethu Samundram > > project , had the same "bunch" of people come out in streets and held > > demonstrarions against the project , who had earlier protested narmada > > project and were part of Chipko movement. > > > > Where are Arundhatis and Medhas of this world ? > > > > I am sure they dont care about this issue and hence would stay back in > > their AS rooms polluting the atmosphere. > > > > Since they did not step in , why shouldnt I support BJP or VHP ...they > > are filling in the void. > > > > And so far i havent come across the stand of the Communist ? Is it the > > same as that of Karunnadhi ? > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > On 9/17/07, *Tapas Ray* > > wrote: > > > > Pawan, > > > > If you care about ecology, don't you think that should be because it > has > > a value in itself, regardless of whether or not it has value as > sacred > > ground/water? If the channel had no mythology attached, would it be > ok > > to alter its ecosystem? The meaning of "more so" is not clear to me. > The > > way I see it, it is either worth preserving or it is not. Can't be > > both. > > > > As for the BJP and VHP, which have shown complete insensitivity to > > ecological issues, would you like to see them hijack a major > ecological > > issue for their own political ends? As someone who is concerned > about > > ecology, are you not concerned that this would hurt the eco > movement? > > > > Tapas > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 21:14:11 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:44:11 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Rama as a kudikaran In-Reply-To: <875097.43310.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <875097.43310.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46F3E6CB.7070400@googlemail.com> Dhatri, Thanks for your kind response. > We all including karunanidhi need Ram as our sons,bridegrooms and > rulers. Do we? But he is long dead and gone, isn't he? That is, if he ever did exist, which is not a given, as far as I know. But even if he did exist, and we were living in his time, why would we all want him as our sons, bridegrooms and rulers? Why not, say, Laxman, or Ravan, or anybody else living in those times who was a decent person but just not fortunate enough (or canny enough ... you have to be media-savvy for these things) to get himself on the Ramayana as hero, and be discussed on Reader-list in the 21st century as the epitome of good sonness, bridegroomness and rulerness? > This is where we exactly stand at our personal matters. So are you talking about your personal affairs, or are you speaking for everyone? If you are speaking for yourself, I would have no beef with your getting Ram as your son, bridegroom, ruler, or whatever ... well, maybe not ruler, because if you and I happened to be citizens of the same country (which I assume we are today), then Ram would be my ruler too, and I would not want to write a blank cheque on that one. > Why do karunanidhi perform shraadda kriyas to his parents??? Why should his > sons perform the same later if he die tomorrow??? Just go and ask him > some body? I don't know what the practice is in his family, but would be happy to see you ask and report back to Sarai. My hunch is that he would say "It's my business and none of yours". > I dont know and never understand where is the constitution, civic > bodies,CVC(central vigilence commision), EC (Election commission), ACB > (Anti corruption beauro) ,media so called and finally almighty is doing? I suppose they are doing what they are supposed to do, namely their respective jobs, some better than others. Of course, I can't speak for the almighty. > Surely almighty is there and watching thats why tsunamis,earthquakes are > coming to reduce the weight,caused due to increase of sins on earth. Who knows what (s)he is doing! By the way, do I detect a 21st century Malthus in you? > I hope you surely satisfied with this much of my writing compared to the > preechings last time. This was certainly more entertaining than that one, and I thank you for it. Best, Tapas From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 21:15:03 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The best things Message-ID: <279970.51117.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> This time I would like to bring you the best things of all the times. aham atma gudakesa sarva-bhutasaya-sthitah aham adis ca madhyam ca bhutanam anta eva ca I am the Self, O Gudakesa, seated in the hearts of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings. adityanam aham visnur jyotisam ravir amsuman maricir marutam asmi naksatranam aham sasi Of the Adityas I am Visnu, of lights I am the radiant sun, I am Marici of the Maruts, and among the stars I am the moon. vedanam sama-vedo 'smi devanam asmi vasavah indriyanam manas casmi bhutanam asmi cetana Of the Vedas I am the Sama-veda; of the demigods I am Indra; of the senses I am the mind, and in living beings I am the living force [knowledge]. rudranam sankaras casmi vitteso yaksa-raksasam vasunam pavakas casmi meruh sikharinam aham Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva; of the Yaksas and Raksasas I am the Lord of wealth [Kuvera]; of the Vasus I am fire [Agni], and of mountains I am Meru. purodhasam ca mukhyam mam viddhi partha brhaspatim senaninam aham skandah sarasam asmi sagarah Of priests, O Arjuna, know Me to be the chief, Brhaspati, the lord of devotion. Of generals I am Skanda, the lord of war; and of bodies of water I am the ocean. maharsinam bhrgur aham giram asmy ekam aksaram yajnanam japa-yajno 'smi sthavaranam himalayah Of the great sages I am Bhrgu; of vibrations I am the transcendental om. Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names [japa], and of immovable things I am the Himalayas. asvatthah sarva-vrksanam devarsinam ca naradah gandharvanam citrarathah siddhanam kapilo munih Of all trees I am the holy fig tree, and among sages and demigods I am Narada. Of the singers of the gods [Gandharvas] I am Citraratha, and among perfected beings I am the sage Kapila. uccaihsravasam asvanam viddhi mam amrtodbhavam airavatam gajendranam naranam ca naradhipam Of horses know Me to be Uccaihsrava, who rose out of the ocean, born of the elixir of immortality; of lordly elephants I am Airavata, and among men I am the monarch. ayudhanam aham vajram dhenunam asmi kamadhuk prajanas casmi kandarpah sarpanam asmi vasukih Of weapons I am the thunderbolt; among cows I am the surabhi, givers of abundant milk. Of procreators I am Kandarpa, the god of love, and of serpents I am Vasuki, the chief. anantas casmi naganam varuno yadasam aham pitrnam aryama casmi yamah samyamatam aham Of the celestial Naga snakes I am Ananta; of the aquatic deities I am Varuna. Of departed ancestors I am Aryama, and among the dispensers of law I am Yama, lord of death. prahladas casmi daityanam kalah kalayatam aham mrganam ca mrgendro 'ham vainateyas ca paksinam Among the Daitya demons I am the devoted Prahlada; among subduers I am time; among the beasts I am the lion, and among birds I am Garuda, the feathered carrier of Visnu. pavanah pavatam asmi ramah sastra-bhrtam aham jhasanam makaras casmi srotasam asmi jahnavi Of purifiers I am the wind; of the wielders of weapons I am Rama; of fishes I am the shark, and of flowing rivers I am the Ganges. sarganam adir antas ca madhyam caivaham arjuna adhyatma-vidya vidyanam vadah pravadatam aham Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the self, and among logicians I am the conclusive truth. aksaranam akaro 'smi dvandvah samasikasya ca aham evaksayah kalo dhataham visvato-mukhah Of letters I am the letter A, and among compounds I am the dual word. I am also inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahma, whose manifold faces turn everywhere. mrtyuh sarva-haras caham udbhavas ca bhavisyatam kirtih srir vak ca narinam smrtir medha dhrtih ksama I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience. brhat-sama tatha samnam gayatri chandasam aham masanam marga-sirso 'ham rtunam kusumakarah Of hymns I am the Brhat-sama sung to the Lord Indra, and of poetry I am the Gayatri verse, sung daily by Brahmanas. Of months I am November and December, and of seasons I am flower-bearing spring. dyutam chalayatam asmi tejas tejasvinam aham jayo 'smi vyavasayo 'smi sattvam sattvavatam aham I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the splendor. I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong. vrsninam vasudevo 'smi pandavanam dhananjayah muninam apy aham vyasah kavinam usana kavih Of the descendants of Vrsni I am Vasudeva, and of the Pandavas I am Arjuna. Of the sages I am Vyasa, and among great thinkers I am Usana. dando damayatam asmi nitir asmi jigisatam maunam caivasmi guhyanam jnanam jnanavatam aham Among punishments I am the rod of chastisement, and of those who seek victory, I am morality. Of secret things I am silence, and of the wise I am wisdom. yac capi sarva-bhutanam bijam tad aham arjuna na tad asti vina yat syan maya bhutam caracaram Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being--moving or unmoving--that can exist without Me. Most of the things alive, we are viewing,feeling and experiencing. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 21:19:44 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:49:44 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] The best things In-Reply-To: <279970.51117.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <279970.51117.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46F3E818.7030706@googlemail.com> Dhatri, Instead of copy-pasting all that, would you consider giving us the URL - if you must? Thanks. Tapas we wi wrote: > This time I would like to bring you the best things of all the times. > aham atma gudakesa From ml49 at duke.edu Fri Sep 21 21:22:35 2007 From: ml49 at duke.edu (Madhumita Lahiri) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:52:35 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] purposes of the reader-list Message-ID: <21d61a110709210852x5c38e94cm245445c7ca2ac1fe@mail.gmail.com> The Reader List partly serves as a platform to create a lively community that discusses and debates key issues in new & old media practice and theory and reflects on the experience of the everyday, as well as technology, culture and politics in city spaces. The Sarai Reader's concern with the theme of the Public Domain means that the list is especially open to reflections on what is the nature of a free public space in our cities, and in our various practices, and what it might come to mean. The people who often post on the list include social theorists, activists, filmmakers, telecommunications engineers, artists and software programmers. Copied from the website (https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list ) Please keep the postings relevant to the description of the list. I find it difficult to wade through so many messages, many of which seem irrelevant to the description above -- and the reasons for which I subscribed to the listserv. I suspect that I'm not the only one. Thanks, and best, Madhumita On 9/21/07, we wi wrote: > > This time I would like to bring you the best things of all the times. > aham atma gudakesa > sarva-bhutasaya-sthitah > aham adis ca madhyam ca > bhutanam anta eva ca > I am the Self, O Gudakesa, seated in the hearts of all creatures. I am > the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings. > adityanam aham visnur > jyotisam ravir amsuman > maricir marutam asmi > naksatranam aham sasi > Of the Adityas I am Visnu, of lights I am the radiant sun, I am Marici > of the Maruts, and among the stars I am the moon. > vedanam sama-vedo 'smi > devanam asmi vasavah > indriyanam manas casmi > bhutanam asmi cetana > Of the Vedas I am the Sama-veda; of the demigods I am Indra; of the > senses I am the mind, and in living beings I am the living force > [knowledge]. > rudranam sankaras casmi > vitteso yaksa-raksasam > vasunam pavakas casmi > meruh sikharinam aham > Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva; of the Yaksas and Raksasas I am the > Lord of wealth [Kuvera]; of the Vasus I am fire [Agni], and of mountains I > am Meru. > purodhasam ca mukhyam mam > viddhi partha brhaspatim > senaninam aham skandah > sarasam asmi sagarah > Of priests, O Arjuna, know Me to be the chief, Brhaspati, the lord of > devotion. Of generals I am Skanda, the lord of war; and of bodies of water I > am the ocean. > maharsinam bhrgur aham > giram asmy ekam aksaram > yajnanam japa-yajno 'smi > sthavaranam himalayah > Of the great sages I am Bhrgu; of vibrations I am the transcendental om. > Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names [japa], and of immovable > things I am the Himalayas. > asvatthah sarva-vrksanam > devarsinam ca naradah > gandharvanam citrarathah > siddhanam kapilo munih > Of all trees I am the holy fig tree, and among sages and demigods I am > Narada. Of the singers of the gods [Gandharvas] I am Citraratha, and among > perfected beings I am the sage Kapila. > uccaihsravasam asvanam > viddhi mam amrtodbhavam > airavatam gajendranam > naranam ca naradhipam > Of horses know Me to be Uccaihsrava, who rose out of the ocean, born of > the elixir of immortality; of lordly elephants I am Airavata, and among men > I am the monarch. > ayudhanam aham vajram > dhenunam asmi kamadhuk > prajanas casmi kandarpah > sarpanam asmi vasukih > Of weapons I am the thunderbolt; among cows I am the surabhi, givers of > abundant milk. Of procreators I am Kandarpa, the god of love, and of > serpents I am Vasuki, the chief. > anantas casmi naganam > varuno yadasam aham > pitrnam aryama casmi > yamah samyamatam aham > Of the celestial Naga snakes I am Ananta; of the aquatic deities I am > Varuna. Of departed ancestors I am Aryama, and among the dispensers of law I > am Yama, lord of death. > prahladas casmi daityanam > kalah kalayatam aham > mrganam ca mrgendro 'ham > vainateyas ca paksinam > Among the Daitya demons I am the devoted Prahlada; among subduers I am > time; among the beasts I am the lion, and among birds I am Garuda, the > feathered carrier of Visnu. > pavanah pavatam asmi > ramah sastra-bhrtam aham > jhasanam makaras casmi > srotasam asmi jahnavi > Of purifiers I am the wind; of the wielders of weapons I am Rama; of > fishes I am the shark, and of flowing rivers I am the Ganges. > sarganam adir antas ca > madhyam caivaham arjuna > adhyatma-vidya vidyanam > vadah pravadatam aham > Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O > Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the self, and among > logicians I am the conclusive truth. > aksaranam akaro 'smi > dvandvah samasikasya ca > aham evaksayah kalo > dhataham visvato-mukhah > Of letters I am the letter A, and among compounds I am the dual word. I > am also inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahma, whose manifold > faces turn everywhere. > mrtyuh sarva-haras caham > udbhavas ca bhavisyatam > kirtih srir vak ca narinam > smrtir medha dhrtih ksama > I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to > be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, > faithfulness and patience. > brhat-sama tatha samnam > gayatri chandasam aham > masanam marga-sirso 'ham > rtunam kusumakarah > Of hymns I am the Brhat-sama sung to the Lord Indra, and of poetry I am > the Gayatri verse, sung daily by Brahmanas. Of months I am November and > December, and of seasons I am flower-bearing spring. > dyutam chalayatam asmi > tejas tejasvinam aham > jayo 'smi vyavasayo 'smi > sattvam sattvavatam aham > I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the splendor. > I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong. > vrsninam vasudevo 'smi > pandavanam dhananjayah > muninam apy aham vyasah > kavinam usana kavih > Of the descendants of Vrsni I am Vasudeva, and of the Pandavas I am > Arjuna. Of the sages I am Vyasa, and among great thinkers I am Usana. > dando damayatam asmi > nitir asmi jigisatam > maunam caivasmi guhyanam > jnanam jnanavatam aham > Among punishments I am the rod of chastisement, and of those who seek > victory, I am morality. Of secret things I am silence, and of the wise I am > wisdom. > yac capi sarva-bhutanam > bijam tad aham arjuna > na tad asti vina yat syan > maya bhutam caracaram > Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There > is no being--moving or unmoving--that can exist without Me. > > Most of the things alive, we are viewing,feeling and experiencing. > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who > knows. > Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 22:03:29 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 09:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Re: The best things Message-ID: <484373.31124.qm@web45503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I feel anamica violating whatever to speak like this. Note: forwarded message attached. --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 22:06:09 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:36:09 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] purposes of the reader-list In-Reply-To: <21d61a110709210852x5c38e94cm245445c7ca2ac1fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <21d61a110709210852x5c38e94cm245445c7ca2ac1fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46F3F2F9.4070808@googlemail.com> In the recent past, I have tried to make a related point - that a discussion forum such as Reader-list is for discussion and debate, not for propagating dogma. But some members seem impervious to this simple idea. Dhatri's practice of copy-pasting massive blocks of text instead of engaging in rational debate is a case in point. As some have pointed out, the option of excluding errant posters is available, but its exercise is not desirable. This being the case, members interested in seeing that the list functions as it is meant to function, may simply delete everything that comes from the email addresses of posters like "we wi". In that case, any contribution to rational debate that these people might want to make - though this looks unlikely at this time - will also be deleted without being read. But that is something they will have brought upon themselves. Tapas Madhumita Lahiri wrote: > The Reader List partly serves as a platform to create a lively community > that discusses and debates key issues in new & old media practice and theory > and reflects on the experience of the everyday, as well as technology, > culture and politics in city spaces. > The Sarai Reader's concern with the theme of the Public Domain means that > the list is especially open to reflections on what is the nature of a free > public space in our cities, and in our various practices, and what it might > come to mean. The people who often post on the list include social > theorists, activists, filmmakers, telecommunications engineers, artists and > software programmers. > > Copied from the website (https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > ) > > Please keep the postings relevant to the description of the list. I find it > difficult to wade through so many messages, many of which seem irrelevant to > the description above -- and the reasons for which I subscribed to the > listserv. I suspect that I'm not the only one. > > Thanks, and best, > Madhumita > > On 9/21/07, we wi wrote: >> This time I would like to bring you the best things of all the times. >> aham atma gudakesa From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 21:59:21 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 09:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The best things In-Reply-To: <46F3E818.7030706@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <231489.95168.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Tapas, Ram is the representation of good. In Kali era there is very little good of course that's why Karunanidhi performed VASTRAPAHARAN in a assembly, While he gave a his daughter to a good person. I am damn sure, KARUNANIDHI WILL NOT OPT FOR HANDING OVER HIS BODY TO HOSPITALS AND DOCTORS TO DO SCIENTIFICAL RESEARCH. Well I don't know about you, your feelings towards your children,family members and the fellow country country men that you are living, -----------In INDIA but surely every father would like to have a son like Ram who will be very obedient, Every sweet girl like Dhatri(as per your hi-tech feelings in 21st century) would like to have a husband like Ram(always thought about only one wife), and Citizens like we in India would like to have rulers like Ram. At least pretending lets say in the worst case scenario as per your point of view. This is the fact and leave about 10% deviation, rest of the people choosing in this way(the best among the worse). Let me tell you one point that every woman in the world opting for Indian men in 21'st century. Lets Start from Pakistan(woman expressed interest to marry shri A.B. vajpayee), USA no words to write,Russia,japan,Europe what else. No idea about china. Your mail depict your view that, every son should not listen to his parent, every man like you should have either a thought/ should have several wives like(...) and the nation(INDIA) should be filled with what??? (yourself,karunanidhi and all the atheists). Forget links, you don't have Patience and understanding to go-through them, but try to just have a look what is there inside in the posts. Regards, Dhatri. Tapas Ray wrote: Dhatri, Instead of copy-pasting all that, would you consider giving us the URL - if you must? Thanks. Tapas we wi wrote: > This time I would like to bring you the best things of all the times. > aham atma gudakesa --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 22:09:43 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 09:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] purposes of the reader-list (CLARIFICATION) In-Reply-To: <21d61a110709210852x5c38e94cm245445c7ca2ac1fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <265867.91953.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> This is in continuation to the SETHUSAMUDRAM and KARUNANIDHI comments mail. If readers do have patience to go through the content it justifies the purpose of the mail. And I hope member do have patience and time to read and understand. Madhumita Lahiri wrote: The Reader List partly serves as a platform to create a lively community that discusses and debates key issues in new & old media practice and theory and reflects on the experience of the everyday, as well as technology, culture and politics in city spaces. The Sarai Reader's concern with the theme of the Public Domain means that the list is especially open to reflections on what is the nature of a free public space in our cities, and in our various practices, and what it might come to mean. The people who often post on the list include social theorists, activists, filmmakers, telecommunications engineers, artists and software programmers. Copied from the website (https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list) Please keep the postings relevant to the description of the list. I find it difficult to wade through so many messages, many of which seem irrelevant to the description above -- and the reasons for which I subscribed to the listserv. I suspect that I'm not the only one. Thanks, and best, Madhumita On 9/21/07, we wi wrote: This time I would like to bring you the best things of all the times. aham atma gudakesa sarva-bhutasaya-sthitah aham adis ca madhyam ca bhutanam anta eva ca I am the Self, O Gudakesa, seated in the hearts of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings. adityanam aham visnur jyotisam ravir amsuman maricir marutam asmi naksatranam aham sasi Of the Adityas I am Visnu, of lights I am the radiant sun, I am Marici of the Maruts, and among the stars I am the moon. vedanam sama-vedo 'smi devanam asmi vasavah indriyanam manas casmi bhutanam asmi cetana Of the Vedas I am the Sama-veda; of the demigods I am Indra; of the senses I am the mind, and in living beings I am the living force [knowledge]. rudranam sankaras casmi vitteso yaksa-raksasam vasunam pavakas casmi meruh sikharinam aham Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva; of the Yaksas and Raksasas I am the Lord of wealth [Kuvera]; of the Vasus I am fire [Agni], and of mountains I am Meru. purodhasam ca mukhyam mam viddhi partha brhaspatim senaninam aham skandah sarasam asmi sagarah Of priests, O Arjuna, know Me to be the chief, Brhaspati, the lord of devotion. Of generals I am Skanda, the lord of war; and of bodies of water I am the ocean. maharsinam bhrgur aham giram asmy ekam aksaram yajnanam japa-yajno 'smi sthavaranam himalayah Of the great sages I am Bhrgu; of vibrations I am the transcendental om. Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names [japa], and of immovable things I am the Himalayas. asvatthah sarva-vrksanam devarsinam ca naradah gandharvanam citrarathah siddhanam kapilo munih Of all trees I am the holy fig tree, and among sages and demigods I am Narada. Of the singers of the gods [Gandharvas] I am Citraratha, and among perfected beings I am the sage Kapila. uccaihsravasam asvanam viddhi mam amrtodbhavam airavatam gajendranam naranam ca naradhipam Of horses know Me to be Uccaihsrava, who rose out of the ocean, born of the elixir of immortality; of lordly elephants I am Airavata, and among men I am the monarch. ayudhanam aham vajram dhenunam asmi kamadhuk prajanas casmi kandarpah sarpanam asmi vasukih Of weapons I am the thunderbolt; among cows I am the surabhi, givers of abundant milk. Of procreators I am Kandarpa, the god of love, and of serpents I am Vasuki, the chief. anantas casmi naganam varuno yadasam aham pitrnam aryama casmi yamah samyamatam aham Of the celestial Naga snakes I am Ananta; of the aquatic deities I am Varuna. Of departed ancestors I am Aryama, and among the dispensers of law I am Yama, lord of death. prahladas casmi daityanam kalah kalayatam aham mrganam ca mrgendro 'ham vainateyas ca paksinam Among the Daitya demons I am the devoted Prahlada; among subduers I am time; among the beasts I am the lion, and among birds I am Garuda, the feathered carrier of Visnu. pavanah pavatam asmi ramah sastra-bhrtam aham jhasanam makaras casmi srotasam asmi jahnavi Of purifiers I am the wind; of the wielders of weapons I am Rama; of fishes I am the shark, and of flowing rivers I am the Ganges. sarganam adir antas ca madhyam caivaham arjuna adhyatma-vidya vidyanam vadah pravadatam aham Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the self, and among logicians I am the conclusive truth. aksaranam akaro 'smi dvandvah samasikasya ca aham evaksayah kalo dhataham visvato-mukhah Of letters I am the letter A, and among compounds I am the dual word. I am also inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahma, whose manifold faces turn everywhere. mrtyuh sarva-haras caham udbhavas ca bhavisyatam kirtih srir vak ca narinam smrtir medha dhrtih ksama I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience. brhat-sama tatha samnam gayatri chandasam aham masanam marga-sirso 'ham rtunam kusumakarah Of hymns I am the Brhat-sama sung to the Lord Indra, and of poetry I am the Gayatri verse, sung daily by Brahmanas. Of months I am November and December, and of seasons I am flower-bearing spring. dyutam chalayatam asmi tejas tejasvinam aham jayo 'smi vyavasayo 'smi sattvam sattvavatam aham I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the splendor. I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong. vrsninam vasudevo 'smi pandavanam dhananjayah muninam apy aham vyasah kavinam usana kavih Of the descendants of Vrsni I am Vasudeva, and of the Pandavas I am Arjuna. Of the sages I am Vyasa, and among great thinkers I am Usana. dando damayatam asmi nitir asmi jigisatam maunam caivasmi guhyanam jnanam jnanavatam aham Among punishments I am the rod of chastisement, and of those who seek victory, I am morality. Of secret things I am silence, and of the wise I am wisdom. yac capi sarva-bhutanam bijam tad aham arjuna na tad asti vina yat syan maya bhutam caracaram Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being--moving or unmoving--that can exist without Me. Most of the things alive, we are viewing,feeling and experiencing. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 22:38:20 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 22:38:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Meri News In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709211008l29867c57ueddffd113f4361ba@mail.gmail.com> With my experience all i can say is that Merinews gives wonderful opportunity to people .Merinews does do the editing and sends a mail to the writer in this regard. Tarun has a problem when MeriNews rightfully wrote that "Jehadis have ruined the Paradise" . After all who dare call the killers in Kashmir as "Terrorists as well and why anyone dare to blame Pakistan. This is Taruns inherint problem and he would continue to live with it. http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=124424&category=India&catID=2&rtFlg=rtFlg The above article was written by me long time back , and I find they did a suitable job in editing it . Tarun.......stop being a cry baby...................you and your film...........:( On 9/21/07, Tarun Bhartiya wrote: > > Just a small censorship incident from Meri News > http://kashmirfilm.wordpress.com/2007/04/13/blog-flash-4-blogosphere/ > Has a lot to say about Kashmir, Censorship Meri News or Teri News > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 22:41:17 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 22:41:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project - Blueprint for an ecological disaster In-Reply-To: <47e122a70709210817g409c6a7exb3ecf792f49dbe87@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709161056k1d49fd92wf72c1f593e325bf5@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990709162101q42519896g611dd6747d264e92@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709162211w6e1c1ac9meea4e794021a1907@mail.gmail.com> <46EE1118.4060608@sarai.net> <9c06aab30709170541s176f09a6pf2a15257cfc79e30@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70709171000j47e90a5ahd5b8bb7be9748eb@mail.gmail.com> <46EEC288.1050101@googlemail.com> <6b79f1a70709172056p43eb7fcfgcd6b410f5141571a@mail.gmail.com> <46EFC2C0.7010509@googlemail.com> <47e122a70709210817g409c6a7exb3ecf792f49dbe87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709211011w34a6b29dv7bfd184b5a3f533e@mail.gmail.com> Inder , A nice way to divert the issue...................whats your take on the Ram Sethu viz a viz faith & ecology. And what do you intend to do....... Pawan On 9/21/07, inder salim wrote: > > dear Pawan ji > > After Shuddha responded ur mail with the opening line : > " This is one of the rare occasions where I think I am in near total > agreement with Pawan Durani " > .....It was just a matter of time that DIL KI BAAT ZUBAN PA AHI GAI > > Now u write: > > " Where are Arundhatis and Medhas of this world ? > I am sure they dont care about this issue and hence would stay back in > their AS rooms polluting the atmosphere" > > now this includes lot of people. i ask you mr. pawan, Is POLLUTING THE > ATMOSPHERE' not unparliamentary, as u expressed in one of your replies to > ur > mails. Why cant we be decent with the other ? > > My guess is right, that people who are closer to faith care a little less > about ecology and the other. Octavio Paz observes in Monkey Grammerian > that > people in India people worship 'the wind god' but forget 'the wind'. So, > ecology in the deeper sense of the term, which perhaps includes the > conceptual understanding about society, environment and other aspects of > human mind. I am not saying anything against 'believers' but do we still > feel that religion has a cure for all our ills? If so, then India is > surely > in mess. Please note that ' believers' who live in sync with their > respective ecologies care a lot about their surrounding, which is > markedly > different from the patterns of 'believers' living in big cities. > > u say, that VHP/BJP is good for you as long as they suit you. No, my dear, > it is on the contrary. You are good to them as long it suits them. > > We need to know, what form faith takes in cities, and exploits the simpler > version of it in rural India and elsewhere. I believe, that true lovers of > ecology need to be careful about this disguised appropriation > by the right wingers. I dont mind being labelled as Left winger, though i > am as on date. > > love > is > > > > > > On 9/18/07, Tapas Ray wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > The BJP, VHP. etc., should be shunned because while they fill the void, > > they fill it with hate and violence, whereas the issue at hand is life - > > survival of an ecosystem and of fisherfolk. If Sethusamudram is > > projected as a Hindu issue, why should Muslim or Christian fisherfolk > > and others worry about it? If it is an ecological issue and one of > > livelihood for fisherfolk regardless of religion, everybody will be > > concerned. > > > > I do not know whether the prominent activists you refer to have taken it > > up or not, but if they in deed have not, I would imagine they might be > > wary of being viewed as associating themselves with a group that > > promotes hate and thrives on violence, and has been openly hostile in > > the past (on Narmada, etc.). In other words, I think the cause of > > Sethusamudram would have been well served if the BJP and VHP had left it > > alone and not turned it into a religious issue. > > > > I cannot, and do not want to, speak for the communists. But my personal > > - and possibly limited - understanding is that they have no concern for > > environmental issues whatsoever, just like the Hindutva bloc. In any > > stand they take, on any issue, the sole concern is power - namely, > > whether it is congruent with the aim of gaining political power or not. > > (In my very limited knowledge, this is the legacy of Lenin and Stalin.) > > Once one understands this, it is easy to understand every action of > > theirs. > > > > But the question remains - do you think Sethusamudram would deserve your > > attention even if there was no mythology attached to it? > > > > Tapas > > > > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Mr Ray , > > > > > > I would not have cared for BJP /VHP protesting against Sethu Samundram > > > project , had the same "bunch" of people come out in streets and held > > > demonstrarions against the project , who had earlier protested narmada > > > project and were part of Chipko movement. > > > > > > Where are Arundhatis and Medhas of this world ? > > > > > > I am sure they dont care about this issue and hence would stay back in > > > their AS rooms polluting the atmosphere. > > > > > > Since they did not step in , why shouldnt I support BJP or VHP ...they > > > are filling in the void. > > > > > > And so far i havent come across the stand of the Communist ? Is it the > > > same as that of Karunnadhi ? > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/17/07, *Tapas Ray* > > > wrote: > > > > > > Pawan, > > > > > > If you care about ecology, don't you think that should be because > it > > has > > > a value in itself, regardless of whether or not it has value as > > sacred > > > ground/water? If the channel had no mythology attached, would it > be > > ok > > > to alter its ecosystem? The meaning of "more so" is not clear to > me. > > The > > > way I see it, it is either worth preserving or it is not. Can't be > > > both. > > > > > > As for the BJP and VHP, which have shown complete insensitivity to > > > ecological issues, would you like to see them hijack a major > > ecological > > > issue for their own political ends? As someone who is concerned > > about > > > ecology, are you not concerned that this would hurt the eco > > movement? > > > > > > Tapas > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 22:34:19 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The best things In-Reply-To: <20070921155822.29569.qmail@f4mail208.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <976004.17239.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Anamika violating all the norms and dont have right to speak with me like this. If anamica actively participate in the debates and contribute whatever thats nice and so as any of the members as well. Thanx and Regards, Dhatri. Anamika Bhatnagar wrote: i thought you were going to ditch the list...why don;t you go and get lost somewhere? On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 we wi wrote : >This time I would like to bring you the best things of all the times. > aham atma gudakesa >sarva-bhutasaya-sthitah >aham adis ca madhyam ca >bhutanam anta eva ca > I am the Self, O Gudakesa, seated in the hearts of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings. > adityanam aham visnur >jyotisam ravir amsuman >maricir marutam asmi >naksatranam aham sasi > Of the Adityas I am Visnu, of lights I am the radiant sun, I am Marici of the Maruts, and among the stars I am the moon. > vedanam sama-vedo 'smi >devanam asmi vasavah >indriyanam manas casmi >bhutanam asmi cetana > Of the Vedas I am the Sama-veda; of the demigods I am Indra; of the senses I am the mind, and in living beings I am the living force [knowledge]. > rudranam sankaras casmi >vitteso yaksa-raksasam >vasunam pavakas casmi >meruh sikharinam aham > Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva; of the Yaksas and Raksasas I am the Lord of wealth [Kuvera]; of the Vasus I am fire [Agni], and of mountains I am Meru. > purodhasam ca mukhyam mam >viddhi partha brhaspatim >senaninam aham skandah >sarasam asmi sagarah > Of priests, O Arjuna, know Me to be the chief, Brhaspati, the lord of devotion. Of generals I am Skanda, the lord of war; and of bodies of water I am the ocean. > maharsinam bhrgur aham >giram asmy ekam aksaram >yajnanam japa-yajno 'smi >sthavaranam himalayah > Of the great sages I am Bhrgu; of vibrations I am the transcendental om. Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names [japa], and of immovable things I am the Himalayas. > asvatthah sarva-vrksanam >devarsinam ca naradah >gandharvanam citrarathah >siddhanam kapilo munih > Of all trees I am the holy fig tree, and among sages and demigods I am Narada. Of the singers of the gods [Gandharvas] I am Citraratha, and among perfected beings I am the sage Kapila. > uccaihsravasam asvanam >viddhi mam amrtodbhavam >airavatam gajendranam >naranam ca naradhipam > Of horses know Me to be Uccaihsrava, who rose out of the ocean, born of the elixir of immortality; of lordly elephants I am Airavata, and among men I am the monarch. > ayudhanam aham vajram >dhenunam asmi kamadhuk >prajanas casmi kandarpah >sarpanam asmi vasukih > Of weapons I am the thunderbolt; among cows I am the surabhi, givers of abundant milk. Of procreators I am Kandarpa, the god of love, and of serpents I am Vasuki, the chief. > anantas casmi naganam >varuno yadasam aham >pitrnam aryama casmi >yamah samyamatam aham > Of the celestial Naga snakes I am Ananta; of the aquatic deities I am Varuna. Of departed ancestors I am Aryama, and among the dispensers of law I am Yama, lord of death. > prahladas casmi daityanam >kalah kalayatam aham >mrganam ca mrgendro 'ham >vainateyas ca paksinam > Among the Daitya demons I am the devoted Prahlada; among subduers I am time; among the beasts I am the lion, and among birds I am Garuda, the feathered carrier of Visnu. > pavanah pavatam asmi >ramah sastra-bhrtam aham >jhasanam makaras casmi >srotasam asmi jahnavi > Of purifiers I am the wind; of the wielders of weapons I am Rama; of fishes I am the shark, and of flowing rivers I am the Ganges. > sarganam adir antas ca >madhyam caivaham arjuna >adhyatma-vidya vidyanam >vadah pravadatam aham > Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the self, and among logicians I am the conclusive truth. > aksaranam akaro 'smi >dvandvah samasikasya ca >aham evaksayah kalo >dhataham visvato-mukhah > Of letters I am the letter A, and among compounds I am the dual word. I am also inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahma, whose manifold faces turn everywhere. > mrtyuh sarva-haras caham >udbhavas ca bhavisyatam >kirtih srir vak ca narinam >smrtir medha dhrtih ksama > I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience. > brhat-sama tatha samnam >gayatri chandasam aham >masanam marga-sirso 'ham >rtunam kusumakarah > Of hymns I am the Brhat-sama sung to the Lord Indra, and of poetry I am the Gayatri verse, sung daily by Brahmanas. Of months I am November and December, and of seasons I am flower-bearing spring. > dyutam chalayatam asmi >tejas tejasvinam aham >jayo 'smi vyavasayo 'smi >sattvam sattvavatam aham > I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the splendor. I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong. > vrsninam vasudevo 'smi >pandavanam dhananjayah >muninam apy aham vyasah >kavinam usana kavih > Of the descendants of Vrsni I am Vasudeva, and of the Pandavas I am Arjuna. Of the sages I am Vyasa, and among great thinkers I am Usana. > dando damayatam asmi >nitir asmi jigisatam >maunam caivasmi guhyanam >jnanam jnanavatam aham > Among punishments I am the rod of chastisement, and of those who seek victory, I am morality. Of secret things I am silence, and of the wise I am wisdom. > yac capi sarva-bhutanam >bijam tad aham arjuna >na tad asti vina yat syan >maya bhutam caracaram > Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being-- moving or unmoving--that can exist without Me. > > Most of the things alive, we are viewing,feeling and experiencing. > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > >--------------------------------- >Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. >Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 23:05:32 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:05:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The best things In-Reply-To: <976004.17239.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <20070921155822.29569.qmail@f4mail208.rediffmail.com> <976004.17239.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709211035p3f4dfe89i26af725ed395286f@mail.gmail.com> Dhatri, She wrote some stink to me as well....For your knowledge she is "A" of VASP. Pawan On 9/21/07, we wi wrote: > > Anamika violating all the norms and dont have right to speak with me like > this. If anamica actively participate in the debates and contribute > whatever thats nice and so as any of the members as well. > Thanx and Regards, > Dhatri. > > > Anamika Bhatnagar wrote: > > i thought you were going to ditch the list...why don;t you go and get lost > somewhere? > > On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 we wi wrote : > >This time I would like to bring you the best things of all the times. > > aham atma gudakesa > >sarva-bhutasaya-sthitah > >aham adis ca madhyam ca > >bhutanam anta eva ca > > I am the Self, O Gudakesa, seated in the hearts of all creatures. I am > the beginning, the > middle and the end of all beings. > > adityanam aham visnur > >jyotisam ravir amsuman > >maricir marutam asmi > >naksatranam aham sasi > > Of the Adityas I am Visnu, of lights I am the radiant sun, I am Marici > of the Maruts, and > among the stars I am the moon. > > vedanam sama-vedo 'smi > >devanam asmi vasavah > >indriyanam manas casmi > >bhutanam asmi cetana > > Of the Vedas I am the Sama-veda; of the demigods I am Indra; of the > senses I am the > mind, and in living beings I am the living force [knowledge]. > > rudranam sankaras casmi > >vitteso yaksa-raksasam > >vasunam pavakas casmi > >meruh sikharinam aham > > Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva; of the Yaksas and Raksasas I am the > Lord of wealth > [Kuvera]; of the Vasus I am fire [Agni], and of mountains I am Meru. > > purodhasam ca mukhyam mam > >viddhi partha brhaspatim > >senaninam aham skandah > >sarasam asmi sagarah > > Of priests, O Arjuna, know Me to be the chief, Brhaspati, the lord of > devotion. Of > generals I am Skanda, the lord of war; and of bodies of water I am the > ocean. > > maharsinam bhrgur aham > >giram asmy ekam aksaram > >yajnanam japa-yajno 'smi > >sthavaranam himalayah > > Of the great sages I am Bhrgu; of vibrations I am the transcendental > om. Of sacrifices I > am the chanting of the holy names [japa], and of immovable things I am the > Himalayas. > > asvatthah sarva-vrksanam > >devarsinam ca naradah > >gandharvanam citrarathah > >siddhanam kapilo munih > > Of all trees I am the holy fig tree, and among sages and demigods I am > Narada. Of the > singers of the gods [Gandharvas] I am Citraratha, and among perfected > beings I am the > sage Kapila. > > uccaihsravasam asvanam > >viddhi mam amrtodbhavam > >airavatam gajendranam > >naranam ca naradhipam > > Of horses know Me to be Uccaihsrava, who rose out of the ocean, born of > the elixir of > immortality; of lordly elephants I am Airavata, and among men I am the > monarch. > > ayudhanam aham vajram > >dhenunam asmi kamadhuk > >prajanas casmi kandarpah > >sarpanam asmi vasukih > > Of weapons I am the thunderbolt; among cows I am the surabhi, givers of > abundant > milk. Of procreators I am Kandarpa, the god of love, and of serpents I am > Vasuki, the chief. > > anantas casmi naganam > >varuno yadasam aham > >pitrnam aryama casmi > >yamah samyamatam aham > > Of the celestial Naga snakes I am Ananta; of the aquatic deities I am > Varuna. Of > departed ancestors I am Aryama, and among the dispensers of law I am Yama, > lord of > death. > > prahladas casmi daityanam > >kalah kalayatam aham > >mrganam ca mrgendro 'ham > >vainateyas ca paksinam > > Among the Daitya demons I am the devoted Prahlada; among subduers I am > time; > among the beasts I am the lion, and among birds I am Garuda, the feathered > carrier of > Visnu. > > pavanah pavatam asmi > >ramah sastra-bhrtam aham > >jhasanam makaras casmi > >srotasam asmi jahnavi > > Of purifiers I am the wind; of the wielders of weapons I am Rama; of > fishes I am the > shark, and of flowing rivers I am the Ganges. > > sarganam adir antas ca > >madhyam caivaham arjuna > >adhyatma-vidya vidyanam > >vadah pravadatam aham > > Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O > Arjuna. Of all > sciences I am the spiritual science of the self, and among logicians I am > the conclusive > truth. > > aksaranam akaro 'smi > >dvandvah samasikasya ca > >aham evaksayah kalo > >dhataham visvato-mukhah > > Of letters I am the letter A, and among compounds I am the dual word. I > am also > inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahma, whose manifold faces turn > everywhere. > > mrtyuh sarva-haras caham > >udbhavas ca bhavisyatam > >kirtih srir vak ca narinam > >smrtir medha dhrtih ksama > > I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to > be. Among women I > am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience. > > brhat-sama tatha samnam > >gayatri chandasam aham > >masanam marga-sirso 'ham > >rtunam kusumakarah > > Of hymns I am the Brhat-sama sung to the Lord Indra, and of poetry I am > the Gayatri > verse, sung daily by Brahmanas. Of months I am November and December, and > of seasons I > am flower-bearing spring. > > dyutam chalayatam asmi > >tejas tejasvinam aham > >jayo 'smi vyavasayo 'smi > >sattvam sattvavatam aham > > I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the > splendor. I am victory, I > am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong. > > vrsninam vasudevo 'smi > >pandavanam dhananjayah > >muninam apy aham vyasah > >kavinam usana kavih > > Of the descendants of Vrsni I am Vasudeva, and of the Pandavas I am > Arjuna. Of the > sages I am Vyasa, and among great thinkers I am Usana. > > dando damayatam asmi > >nitir asmi jigisatam > >maunam caivasmi guhyanam > >jnanam jnanavatam aham > > Among punishments I am the rod of chastisement, and of those who seek > victory, I am > morality. Of secret things I am silence, and of the wise I am wisdom. > > yac capi sarva-bhutanam > >bijam tad aham arjuna > >na tad asti vina yat syan > >maya bhutam caracaram > > Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. > There is no being-- > moving or unmoving--that can exist without Me. > > > > Most of the things alive, we are viewing,feeling and experiencing. > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who > knows. > >Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > >_________________________________________ > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >Critiques & Collaborations > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >List archive: > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 23:40:25 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:40:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rama as a kudikaran In-Reply-To: <46F3B91C.5010009@googlemail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709202218l3387c541r43eec81cd16ea880@mail.gmail.com> <46F3B91C.5010009@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709211110t2567ffd6p35ddadfa76b5daf0@mail.gmail.com> Tapas , NamaskAr I do not mind the even the VASP asking me . Had this issue aboy Danish cartoon the "intellectuals" and the neo converts would have been overbusy. What needs to be understood is how easily can a person in India hurt the sentiments of 80 crore hindus. And what is even more noteworthy is that the neo converts are silent . And if someone raises an issue they would term people as BJP supporter , RSS , and what not. Valmiki in his Ramayana had written sa hi devai rudiirNasya raavaNasya vadhaarthibhiH arthito maanushhe loke jajJNe vishhNuH sanaatanaH [That Rama ..the eternal Vishnu who was born on earth as prayed by celestials to kill the egoistic Ravana ] Pawan On 9/21/07, Tapas Ray wrote: > > Pawan, > > I am not in VASP, but hope it's still ok for me to offer my two bits. > > I am not sure who you think should be condemned - Karunanidhi or Valmiki? > > The story at the link you have forwarded says Karunanidhi says Valmiki > called Ram "a kudikaran (drunkard)". If Valmiki did *not* call Ram > "kudikaran", Karunanidhi needs to be condemned right away, no questions > asked. > > On the other hand, if Valmiki did, there can be no question of > condemning Karunanidhi, even if you hate his dark glasses or his shawl - > or, as in my case, his determination to destroy the strait's marine > ecology. > > The issue of condemnation then shifts to poor old Valmiki who, I'm sure, > would have loved the spectacle of his trial by the censors. > > Questions then arise: > > What exactly did "kudikaran" mean in Valmiki's time? Did it really mean > "drunkard" as the story suggests? > > If it did mean "drunkard", in what context was the term used? (I hope > you will agree that there can be no interpretation of a text without > reference to context.) > > If it did, did "drunkard" mean quite the same thing in Valmiki's time as > it does now? > > But what does it mean now? For some people, taking a single drink is > enough to label one a drunkard. For others, a drunkard is someone who > is, or is tending to become, an alcoholic. > > So, where do we stand? > > Tapas > > > Pawan Durani wrote: > > No words from the elite intellectuals [ VASP ] ....not even a > condemnation > > ! > > > > > http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE920070920132940&Headline=Valmiki+said+Ram+was+a+drunkard:+Karunanidhi&Title=Chennai&Topic=0 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From chitravichitras at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 00:46:24 2007 From: chitravichitras at gmail.com (chitra s) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 00:46:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rama as a kudikaran Message-ID: <741b0f930709211216u25238998pb33e909d932c3e3f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Dhatri, What do you mean by 'Sarai people'? Tapas Ray is not 'Sarai people'. I am a member of this list. Anyone can become a member of this list and read and write. I also wonder "How do people trust karunanidhi and care about his words?" and "Is he so kind and good to reelect again and again?" But, I'm not sure about this: "after 60 anybody should be thrown out of whatever power." In fact I don't think I care very much for your language. Dhatri, please use words with care. People over 60 in this country are deeply respected. Please remember we are Indians and we respect our elders. Don't you have any respect and regard for our elders, our seniors?! Its shocking! the Ramayana tells us to respect our elders. Haven't you read the Ramayana? So many of our great freedom fighters, notionalists, great leaders of our beloved country were over 60!! Bal Thackeray, Dev Anand, APJ Abdul Kalam, Amitabh Bachchan are all I think over 60! You cant go around saying anything that comes to your mind. Enough is enough. Regards CS How do people trust karunanidhi and care about his words? Its our sadness to see such a person re-elected as chief minister? The entire India know about the Jayalalitha episode and later incidents? Its a pity to humanity, forget ethics,faith,morality,belief ,mythology whatever. Sethusamudram project is the recovery stunt of the money that he invested to distrubte colour TV'S during the last election. He was a poet during his younger age, just imagine how violent he used to write and think. How can sarai people compare karunanidhi and valmiki. Let me describe him as a modern day deamon. Instead of spending time at VAANAPRASTHA what kind of governace will he give At the age of 88. Is he so kind and good to reelect again and again. Actually after 60 anybody should be thrown out of whatever power. This amendment should be included in the Constitution. If need comes and system thinks about to use the experience of the 60 years, then just upto suggestion level is allowed and implementation, execution should be in the hands of system. Regards, Dhatri. Pawan, I am not in VASP, but hope it's still ok for me to offer my two bits. I am not sure who you think should be condemned - Karunanidhi or Valmiki? The story at the link you have forwarded says Karunanidhi says Valmiki called Ram "a kudikaran (drunkard)". If Valmiki did **not** call Ram "kudikaran", Karunanidhi needs to be condemned right away, no questions asked. On the other hand, if Valmiki did, there can be no question of condemning Karunanidhi, even if you hate his dark glasses or his shawl - or, as in my case, his determination to destroy the strait's marine ecology. The issue of condemnation then shifts to poor old Valmiki who, I'm sure, would have loved the spectacle of his trial by the censors. Questions then arise: What exactly did "kudikaran" mean in Valmiki's time? Did it really mean "drunkard" as the story suggests? If it did mean "drunkard", in what context was the term used? (I hope you will agree that there can be no interpretation of a text without reference to context.) If it did, did "drunkard" mean quite the same thing in Valmiki's time as it does now? But what does it mean now? For some people, taking a single drink is enough to label one a drunkard. For others, a drunkard is someone who is, or is tending to become, an alcoholic. So, where do we stand? Tapas Pawan Durani wrote: > No words from the elite intellectuals [ VASP ] ....not even a condemnation > ! > > http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE920070920132940&Headline=Valmiki+said+Ram+was+a+drunkard:+Karunanidhi&Title=Chennai&Topic=0 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ From fmadre at free.fr Fri Sep 21 21:27:18 2007 From: fmadre at free.fr (fmadre at free.fr) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:57:18 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] The best things In-Reply-To: <279970.51117.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <279970.51117.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070921175718.36ca4rt44kgk0o4w@imp4.free.fr> we wi, I think it's off topic yes, I know it's a new concept for you to mull over and, hopefully, unsubscribe off topic think about it f. > This time I would like to bring you the best things of all the times. From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Fri Sep 21 11:54:21 2007 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 21 Sep 2007 06:24:21 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 134 Message-ID: <20070921062421.11945.qmail@webmail17.rediffmail.com> This is with reference to Pawan Durani's Observation. There is nothing to complain. India has been witness to various progressive social movements which have been consistently questioning superstitions, religious dogmas and unequal social order sanctioned/sanctified by so called religious texts. One can't deny the contribution of Mahatma Phule, Ambedkar and Periyar.One must also bear in mind that no religious belief/value should be held sacrosanct moreso in a country where a substancial section of the population is marginalised and humiliated by a brahminical code of conduct. However ironical is the stray comments made by the DMK chief whose party has carefully modelled on the lines of any other dominant chauvanistic group which derives its strentgh primarilly by parachial and caste prejudices. It stands closer to shiv sena in terms of its ideology, value system of other Hindutva/non hindutva communal forces. It is to the credit of Shri Karunanidhi that non brahmin upper caste has seen its ascendency to power and the dalits are still subjucated to sub human existence, notwithsatnding the periodic tokenism/stray comments by the DMK ideologue.Mr. Karunanidhi's contribution runs parallel to Balasaheb. Their families have benefited in economic and plolitical terms and certainly empowered their future generations for the same, though 'social equality and rationality and progressive ideas and enlightenment' would remain at the rehtoric level - the fodder for the survival of them and their likes. Incidently the attack on MS.Selvi's (Mr. Karunanidhi's daughter)house in Bangalore by alleged Ram bakhts and the brutal killing of two passengers in a Tamilnadu transport owned bus seems to have mirrored the same terror and fascist culture displayed by DMK sevaks, leading to death of two employee's of a tamil daily in Madurai.In what was a battle beween cousins percolated down to socio-political sphere. The question is that whether there could be a free debate on myths abd beliefs, the more important point missed here is whether politician's are qualified enough to don the mantle of specialists without any requisite skills. Fortunately Mr.Karunanidhi is no Romila Thapar nor Mr. Anbumani Ramdass a Venogopal, who masquerade as reformers and progressive people, to cater to political compulsions rather than empowering the marginalised sections. Indian politics interestingly still remains the domain of select people, certain families who could benefit by their priximity to the english rulers, could lay access to modern tools of knowledge and empowerment. So if DMK or Cong talks about empowerment of women and youth that it has to be through the 'democratic exercise' of installing Kanimozhis' and Rahul Gandhis' while the like of Mayawati have to negotiate through various means.   >Message: 3 >Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:48:23 +0530 > From: "Pawan Durani" >Subject: [Reader-list] Rama as a kudikaran >To: reader_list >Message-ID: > <6b79f1a70709202218l3387c541r43eec81cd16ea880 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >No words from the elite intellectuals [ VASP ] ....not even a condemnation >! > >http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE920070920132940&Headline=Valmiki+said+Ram+was+a+drunkard:+Karunanidhi&Title=Chennai&Topic=0 > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 03:34:29 -0700 (PDT) > From: we wi >Subject: [Reader-list] The exclusive description about Sripura or > Srinagar >To: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: <686695.88269.qm at web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Dear All, > > I would like to bring you a delightful description about Srinagar described long back. > > This stotra (hymn which praises) occurs in Brahmanda purana in the Chapter on discussion between Hayagreeva and Agasthya.Hayagreeva is an incarnation of Vishnu with the horse head and is believed to be the storehouse of knowledge. Agasthya is one of the great sages of yore who is one of the stars of the constellation great bear. At his request Hayagreeva taught him the most holy 1000 names of Lalitha . > > > Parama shiva is one of the trinity of Hindu pantheons who is in charge of destruction. He married Sathi , the daughter of Daksha. Daksha and Paramashiva were not getting on well and consequently he did not invite Paramashiva for one of the great fire sacrifices that he conducted. However Sathi went to attend the function in spite of Paramashiva’s protest. Daksha insulted her husband and she jumped in to the fire and ended her life. Consequently at the behest Of Paramashiva Daksha was killed and later given life with a goat’s head. However this incident upset Paramashiva and he entered into deep meditation.Sathi took birth as the daughter of the mountain(Parvathy) Himalayas and started doing penance on Shiva for getting him as her husband. The devas faced a very great enemy in Sura Padma who had a boon that he could be killed only by a son of Shiva and Parvathy. So to wake Shiva from his deep meditation the devas deputed Manmatha , the God of love who shot his > flower arrows at Paramashiva. Paramashiva woke up and opened his third eye and burnt the God of love into ashes. The Devas and Rathi Devi the wife of Manmatha requested Paramashiva to give life to Manmatha. Heeding for their request Paramashiva stared at the ashes of Manmatha.From the ashes came Bhandasura Who made all the world as impotent and ruled from the city called Shonitha pura.He started troubling the devas.The devas then sought the advice of Sage Narada who advised them to conduct a fire sacrifice. From the fire rose Sri Lalitha Tripura Sundari. > > > She was extremely beautiful, She was given in marriage to Lord Kameshwara and made to stay in Sree Nagara at the top of Maha Meru Mountain. > > > Sree nagara had 25 streets circling it. They are made of iron, steel, copper, lead, alloy made of five metals, silver, gold, the white Pushpa raga stone, the red Padmaraga stone. Onyx, diamond, Vaidoorya, Indra neela (topaz), pearl, Marakatha, coral, nine gems and mixture of gems and precious stones. In the eighth street was the forest of Kadambas. This is presided by Syamala. In the fifteenth street live the Ashta Digh palakas.In the sixteenth lives Varahi alias Dandini who is her commander in chief. Here Syamala also has a house. In the seventeenth street live the different Yoginis.In the eighteenth street lives Maha Vishnu.In the nineteenth street lives Esana, in the twentieth Thara Devi, twenty first Varuni , the twenty second Kurukulla who presides over the fort of pride, twenty third Marthanda Bhairawa, twenty fourth the moon and twenty fifth Manmatha presiding over the forest of love. In the center of Srinagara is the Maha Padma Vana(The great lotus forest) and > within it the Chintamani Griha (The house of holy thought),In its north east is the Chid agni kunda and on both sides of its eastern gate are the houses of Manthrini and Dhandini.On its four gates stand the Chaduramnaya gods for watch and ward. And within it is the Sri chakra.In the center of Sri Chakra on the throne of Pancha brahmas on the Bindu Peeta(dot plank) called sarvanandamaya(universal happiness) Sits Maha Tripura Sundari.In the Sri Chakra are the following decorations viz., The square called Trilokya mohanam(most beautiful in the three worlds), The sixteen petalled lotus called Sarvasa paripoorakam(fulfiller of all desires), the eight petalled lotus called Sarvasamksopanam(the all cleanser), the sixteen corner figure called Sarva sowbagyam(all luck),the external ten cornered figure called Sarvartha sadhakam (giver of all assets), the internal ten cornered figure called Sarva raksha karam(All protector), the eight cornered figure called Sarva roka > haram(cure of all diseases), triangle called Sarva siddhi pradam(giver of all powers) and the dot called Sarvananda mayam(all pleasures). > > > The devas prayed her to kill Bhandasura..When she started for the war with Bandasura, she was accompanied by the powers called anima, mahima etc, Brahmi, Kaumari, Vaishnavi, Varahi, Mahendri, Chamundi, Maha Lakshmi, , Nitya Devaths and Avarna Devathas who occupy the Sri Chakra.While Sampatkari devi was the captain of the elephant regiment, Aswarooda devi was the captain of the cavalry.The army was commanded by Dhandini riding on the Charriot called Giri Chakra assisted by Manthrini riding on the chariot called Geya Chakra..Jwala malini protected the army by creating a fire ring around it.ParaShakthi rode in the center on the chariot of Sri Chakra.Nithya Devi destroyed a large chunk of Bandasura’s armies , Bala Devi killed the son of Bandasura, and Manthrini and Dhandini killed his brothers called Vishanga and Vishukra.When the Asuras created blockade for the marching army, Sri Lalitha Tripura sundari created Ganesha with the help of Kameshwara to remove the blockade.Then > Bandasura created the asuras called Hiranyaksha, Hiranya Kasipu and Ravana.The Devi created the ten avatars of Vishnu and destroyed them. She killed all his army using Pasupathastra and killed him with Kameshwarasthra.The gods then praised her.She then recreated Manmatha for the good of the world. This story is contained in the first 84 names of the first 34 slokas of Lalitha Sahasra nama .and all together contains one thousand names. This is also called the Rahasya Nama Sahasra(the thousand secret names).Reading it , meditating on the meaning of the names would lead to the fulfillment of all the wishes of the devotees. > > > 1 > Srimatha Mother who gives immeasurable wealth who removes all sorrows and gives only happiness.-indicates also her role of creation > 2 > Sri maharajni > She who is the empress who takes care of the universe- indicates her role of protection > 3 > Sri math simasaneshwari > She who sits on the throne of lions-indicates her role of destruction > 4 > Chidagni Kunda Sambootha > She who rose from the fire of knowledge and is the ultimate truth > 5 > Deva karya samudhyatha > She who is interested in helping devas > 6 > Udyath bhanu sahasrabha > She who glitters like thousand rising suns > 7 > Chadur bahu samanvidha > She who has four arms > 8 > Ragha Swaroopa pasadya > She who has love for all in the form of rope(pasa)-She has this in one of her left hands > 9 > Krodhakarankusojwala > She who glitters and has anger in the form of Anghusa –in one of her right hands. > 10 > Mano Rupeshu Kodanda > She who has the bow of sweet cane which is her mind-in one of her left hands > 11 > Pancha than mathra sayaka > She who has five bows of touch , smell, hearing, taste and sight > 12 > Nijaruna prabha poora majjath brahmanda mandala > She who makes all the universe immerse in her red colour which is like the sun in the dawn > 13 > Champakasoka –punnaga-sowgandhika- lasath kacha > She who wears in her hair flowers like Champaka, Punnaga and Sowgandhika > 14 > Kuru vinda mani –sreni-kanath kotira manditha > She whose crown glitters with rows of inlaid precious stones (Padmaraga stones) > 15 > Ashtami chandra vibhraja –dhalika sthala shobhitha > She who has a beautiful forehead like the half moon (visible on eighth day from new moon) > 16 > Muka chandra kalankabha mriganabhi viseshaka > She who has the thilaka(dot) of Musk in her forehead which is like the black shadow in the moon > 17 > Vadana smara mangalya griha thorana chillaka > She who has beautiful eyelids which look like the ornaments to her face which is like cupids home > 18 > Vakthra lakshmi –parivaha-chalan meenabha lochana > She who has beautiful eyes which look like fish in the pond of her face > 19 > Nava champaka –pushpabha-nasa dhanda virajitha > She who has nose like freshly opened flowers of Champaka > 20 > Thara kanthi thiraskari nasabharana bhasura > She who has a nose ring which shines more than the star > 21 > Kadambha manjari kluptha karna poora manohara > She who has beautiful ears like the kadamba flowers > 22 > Thadanga yugali bhootha thapanodupa mandala > She who wears the sun and the moon as her ear studs > 23 > Padma raga sila darsha paribhavika polabhu > She who has cheeks which shine more than the mirror made of Padmaraga > 24 > Nava vidhruma bimbha sri nyakkari rathna chhadha > She whose lips are like beautiful new corals > 25 > Shuddha vidyangurakara dwija pangthi dwayojjala > She who has teeth which look like germinated true knowledge(Shodasakshari vidya) > 26 > Karpoora Veedi Kamodha Samakarsha digandara > She who chews betel leaf with the spices which give perfume in all directions > 27 > Nija Sallabha Madhurya Vinirbhardista Kacchabhi > She who has voice sweeter than the notes produced by Sarawathi Devis Veena(This is called Kachabhi) > 28 > Mandasmitha prabha poora majjat Kamesha manasa > She who has lovely smile which is like the river in which the mind of cupid plays > 29 > Anakalidha Sadrushya Chibuka sri virajitha > She who has a beautiful chin which has nothing else to compare > 30 > Kamesha baddha mangalya sutra shobitha kandhara > She who shines with the sacred thread in her neck tied by Lord Kameshwara > 31 > Kankangadha Keyura Kamaniya Bujanvidha > She who wears golden Armlets > 32 > Rathna graiveya chinthaka lola muktha phalanvitha > She who wears necklace with moving pearls and dollar inlaid with gems > 33 > Kameswara prema rathna mani prathi pana sthani > She who gave her breasts which are like the pot made of Rathna(precious stones) and has obtained the love of Kameshwara > 34 > Nabhyala vala Romali latha phala kucha dwayi > She who has two breasts that are like fruits borne on the creeper of tiny hairs raising from her belly. > 35 > Lakshya roma latha dharatha samunneya madhyama > She who is suspected to have a waist because of the creeper like hairs raising from there > 36 > Sthana bhara dalan Madhya patta bhandha valithraya > She who has three stripes in her belly which looks like having been created to protect her tiny waist from her heavy breasts > 37 > Arunaruna kausumba vasthra bhaswat kati thati > She who shines in her light reddish silk cloth worn over her tiny waist > 38 > Rathna kinkinika ramya rasana dhama bhooshitha > She who wears a golden thread below her waist decorated with bells made of precious stones > 39 > Kamesha gnatha sowbhagya mardworu dwayanvitha > She who has pretty and tender thighs known only to her consort, Kameshwara > 40 > Manikhya mukuta kara janu dwaya virajitha > She who has knee joints like the crown made of manikya below her thighs > 41 > Indra kopa parikshiptha smarathunabha jangika > She who has forelegs like the cupids case of arrows followed by the bee called Indra kopa > 42 > Kooda Gulpha > She who has round ankles > 43 > Koorma prashta jayishnu prapadanvidha > She who has upper feet like the back of the tortoise > 44 > Nakadhi dhithi samchanna namajjana thamoguna > She who removes the darkness in the mind of her devotees by the sparkle of nails > 45 > Pada dwaya Prabha jala parakrutha saroruha > She who has two feet which are much more beautiful than lotus flowers > 46 > Sinchana mani manjira manditha sri pamambuja > She who has feet wearing musical anklets filled with gem stones > 47 > Marali Mandha Gamana > She who has the slow gait like the swan > 48 > Maha Lavanya Sewadhi > She who has the store house of supreme beauty > 49 > Sarvaruna > She who has light reddish colour of the dawn in all her aspects > 50 > Anavadhyangi > She who has most beautiful limbs which do not lack any aspect of beauty > 51 > Srvabharana Bhooshita > She who wears all the ornaments > 52 > Shivakameswarangastha > She who sits on the lap of Kameswara(shiva) > 53 > Shiva > She who is the personification of Shiva > 54 > Swadheena Vallabha > She whose husband obeys her > 55 > Summeru Madhya sringastha > She who lives in the central peak of Mount Meru > 56 > Sriman nagara nayika > She who is the chief of Srinagara(a town) > 57 > Chinthamani grihanthastha > She who lives in the all wish full filling house > 58 > Pancha brahmasana sthitha > She who sits on the five brahmas viz., Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Esana and Sadashiva > 59 > Maha padma davi samstha > She who lives in the forest of lotus flowers > 60 > Kadambha vana vasini > She who lives in the forest of Kadmbha (Madurai city is also called Kadambha vana) > 61 > Sudha sagara madhyastha > She who lives in the middle of the sea of nectar > 62 > Kamakshi > She who fulfills desires by her sight > 63 > Kamadhayini > She who gives what is desired > 64 > Devarshi Gana-sangatha-stuyamanathma-vaibhava > She who has all the qualities fit to be worshipped by sages and devas > 65 > Bhandasura vadodyuktha shakthi sena samavitha > She who is surrounded by army set ready to kill Bandasura > 66 > Sampathkari samarooda sindhoora vrija sevitha > She who is surrounded by Sampathkari (that which gives wealth) elephant brigade > 67 > Aswaroodadishidaswa kodi kodi biravrutha > She who is surrounded by crores of cavalry of horses > 68 > Chakra raja ratha rooda sarvayudha parishkridha > She who is fully armed and rides in the Srichakra chariot with nine stories > 69 > Geya chakra ratha rooda manthrini pari sevitha > She who rides in the chariot with seven stories and is served by manthrini who is the goddess of music > 70 > Giri chakra ratharooda dhanda natha puraskrutha > She who rides in the chariot with five stories and is served by goddess Varahi otherwise called Dhanda natha > 71 > Jwalimalika ksiptha vanhi prakara madhyaka > She who is in the middle of the fort of fire built by the Goddess Jwalamalini > 72 > Bhanda sainya vadodyuktha shakthi vikrama harshitha > She who was pleased by the various Shakthis(literally strength but a goddess) who helped in killing the army of Bhandasura > 73 > Nithya parakamatopa nireekshana samutsuka > She who is interested and happy in observing the valour of Nithya devathas (literally goddess of every day) > 74 > Banda puthra vadodyuktha bala vikrama nandhita > She who was pleased by the valour of Bala devi(her daughter) in destroying the sons of Banda > 75 > Manthrinyamba virachitha vishangavatha Doshitha > She who became happy at seeing Goddess Manthrini kill Vishanga(this ogre (brother of Banda) represents our desires for physical things) > 76 > Vishuka prana harana varahi veeerya nandhitha > She who appreciates the valour of Varahi in killing Vishuka (another brother of Banda-he is personification of ignorance) > 77 > Kameshwara mukaloka kalpitha sri Ganeshwara > She who created God Ganesh by the mere look of the face of her Lord , Kameshwara > 78 > Mahaganesha nirbhinna vignayanthra praharshitha > She who became happy at seeing Lord Ganesha destroy the Vigna Yanthra (contraption meant to delay ) created by Vishuka > 79 > Banda surendra nirmuktha sashtra prathyasthra varshani > She who rained arrows and replied with arrows against Bandasura > 80 > Karanguli nakhothpanna narayana dasakrithi > She who created the ten avatharas of Narayana from the tip of her nails (when Bandasura send the Sarvasura asthra (arrow), she destroyed it by creating the ten avatharas of Vishnu) > 81 > Maha pasupathasthragni nirdagdhasura sainika > She who destroyed the army of asuras by the Maha pasupatha arrow. > 82 > Kameshwarasthra nirdhagdha sabandasura sunyaka > She who destroyed Bandasura and his city called sunyaka by the Kameshwara arrow. > 83 > Brhmopendra mahendradhi deva samsthutha vaibhava > She who is prayed by Lord Brahma , Vishnu, indra and other devas > 84 > Hara nethragni sandhagdha kama sanjeevanoushadhi > She who brought back to life the God of love Manmatha who was burnt to ashes by the fire from the eyes of Shiva > 85 > Sri vagbhave koodaiga swaroopa mukha pankaja > She whose lotus face is Vagnhava Koota > 86 > Kantatha kadi paryantha Madhya koodaiga swaroopini > She whose portion from neck to hips is Madya koota > 87 > Sakthi koodaiga thapanna Kadyatho bhaga dharini > She whose portion below hips is the Shakthi koota > 88 > Moola manthrathmikha > She who is the meaning of Moola manthra (root manthra) or She who is the cause > 89 > Moola kooda thraya kalebhara > She whose body is the three parts of the basic manthra i.e. pancha dasakshari manthra > 90 > Kulamruthaika rasika > She who enjoys the ecstatic state of oneness of one who sees, sight and what is seen or She who gets pleasure in drinking the nectar flowing from the thousand petalled lotus below the brain. > 91 > Kula sanketha palini > She who protects the powerful truths from falling into unsuitable people > 92 > Kulangana > She who is a lady belonging to cultured family or She who is like Srividya known only to one whom it belongs > 93 > Kulanthastha > She who is fit to be worshipped any where > 94 > Kaulini > She who is the unification of the principles of Shiva and Shakthi > 95 > Kula yogini > She who is related to the family or She who is related to the ultimate knowledge > 96 > Akula > She who is beyond kula or She who is beyond any knowledge > 97 > Samayanthastha > She who is within the mental worship of Shiva and Shakthi > 98 > Samayachara that para > She who likes Samayachara i.e. worship stepwise from mooladhara Chakra > 99 > Moladharaika nilaya > She who exists in Mooladhara In Mooladhara which is in the form of four petalled lotus the kundalini sleeps. > 100 > Brhama Grandhi Vibhedini > She who breaks the tie in Brahma grandhi i.e she who helps us to cross the ties due to our birth. > 101 > Mani poorantharudhitha > She who exists in Mani pooraka chakra full dressed in her fineries > 102 > Vishnu grandhi vibedhini > She who breaks the ties of Vishnu grandhi i.e she who helps us cross the ties due to our position. > 103 > Agna chakarantharalastha > She who lives in between two eye lids in the form of she who orders > 104 > Rudra grandhi vibhedini > She who breaks the ties of Rudra grandhi i.e she who helps us cross the ties due to our violent thoughts and nature > 105 > Sahararambhujarooda > She who has climbed sahasrara the thousand petalled lotus which is the point of ultimate awakening > 106 > Sudha sarabhi varshini > She who makes nectar flow in all our nerves from sahasrara i.e. she who gives the very pleasant experience of the ultimate > 107 > Thadillatha samaruchya > She who shines like the streak of lightning > 108 > Shad chakropari samshitha > She who is on the top of six wheels starting from mooladhara > 109 > Maha ssakthya > She who likes worship by her devotees > 110 > Kundalini > She who is in the form of Kundalini ( a form which is a snake hissing and exists in mooladhara) > 111 > Bisa thanthu thaniyasi > She who is as thin as the thread from lotus > 112 > Bhavani > She who gives life to the routine life of human beings or She who is the consort of Lord Shiva > 113 > Bhavana gamya > She who can be attained by thinking > 114 > Bhavarany kudariga > She who is like the axe used to cut the miserable life of the world > 115 > Bhadra priya > She who is interested in doing good to her devotees > 116 > Bhadra moorthy > She who is personification of all that is good > 117 > Bhaktha sowbhagya dhayini > She who gives all good and luck to her devotees > 118 > Bhakthi priya > She who likes devotion to her > 119 > Bhakthi gamya > She who can be reached by devotion > 120 > Bhakthi vasya > She who can be controlled by devotion > 121 > Bhayapaha > She who removes fear > 122 > Sambhavya > She who is married to Shambhu > 123 > Saradharadya > She who is to be worshipped during Navarathri celebrated during autumn > 124 > Sarvani > She who is the consort of Lord Shiva in the form of Sarvar > 125 > Sarmadhayini > She who gives pleasures > 126 > Sankari > She who is the consort of Sankara > 127 > Sreekari > She who gives all forms of wealth and happiness > 128 > Sadhwi > She who is eternally devoted to her husband > 129 > Sarat chandra nibhanana > She who has the face like moon in the autumn > 130 > Satho dhari > She who has a thin belly > 131 > Santhimathi > She who is peace personified > 132 > Niradhara > She who does not need any support to herself > 133 > Niranjana > She who is devoid of any blemishes or scars > 134 > Nirlepa > She who does not have any attachment > 135 > Nirmala > She who is personification of clarity or She who is devoid of any dirt > 136 > Nithya > She who is permanently stable > 137 > Nirakara > She who does not have any shape > 138 > Nirakula > She who cannot be attained by confused people > 139 > Nirguna > She who is beyond any characteristics > 140 > Nishkala > She who is not divided > 141 > Santha > She who is peace > 142 > Nishkama > She who does not have any desires > 143 > Niruppallava > She who is never destroyed > 144 > Nithya muktha > She who is forever free of the ties of the world > 145 > Nirvikara > She never undergoes alteration > 146 > Nishprapancha > She who is beyond this world > 147 > Nirasraya > She who does not need support > 148 > Nithya shuddha > She who is forever clean > 149 > Nithya bhuddha > She who is for ever knowledge > 150 > Niravadhya > She who can never be accused > 151 > Niranthara > She who is forever continuous > 152 > Nishkarana > She who does not have cause > 153 > Nishkalanka > She who does not have blemishes > 154 > Nirupadhi > She who does not have basis > 155 > Nireeswara > She who does not have any one controlling her > 156 > Neeraga > She who does not have any desires > 157 > Ragha madhani > She who removes desires from us > 158 > Nirmadha > She who does not have any firm beliefs > 159 > Madhanasini > She who destroys beliefs > 160 > Nischintha > She who is not worried > 161 > Nirahankara > She who does not have an ego > 162 > Nirmoha > She who does not have any passion > 163 > Mohanasini > She who destroys passion > 164 > Nirmama > She who does not have selfish feelings > 165 > Mamatha hanthri > She who destroys selfishness > 166 > Nishpapa > She who does not have any sin > 167 > Papa nashini > She who destroys sin > 168 > Nishkrodha > She who is devoid of anger > 169 > Krodha –samani > She who destroys anger > 170 > Nir Lobha > She who is not miserly > 171 > Lobha nasini > She who removes miserliness > 172 > Nissamsaya > She who does not have any doubts > 173 > Samsayagni > She who clears doubts > 174 > Nirbhava > She who does not have another birth > 175 > Bhava nasini > She who helps us not have another birth > 176 > Nirvikalpa > She who does not do anything she does not desire > 177 > Nirabhadha > She who is not affected by anything > 178 > Nirbhedha > She who does not have any difference > 179 > Bhedha nasini > She who promotes oneness > 180 > Nirnasa > She who does not die > 181 > Mrityu madhani > She who removes fear of death > 182 > Nishkriya > She who does not have any work > 183 > Nishparigraha > She who does not accept help from others > 184 > Nisthula > She who does not have anything to be compared to > 185 > Neela chikura > She who has dark black hair > 186 > Nirapaya > She who is never destroyed > 187 > Nirathyaya > She who does not cross limits of rules she herself created > 188 > Dhurlabha > She who is difficult to obtain > 189 > Dhurgama > She who can not be neared easily > 190 > Dhurga > She who is Dhurga who is a nine year old girl > 191 > Dhuka hanthri > She who removes sorrows > 192 > Sukha prada > She who gives pleasures and happiness > 193 > Dushta doora > She who keeps far away from evil men > 194 > Durachara samani > She who destroys evil practices > 195 > Dosha varjitha > She who does not have anything bad > 196 > Sarvangna > She who knows everything > 197 > Saandra karuna > She who is full of mercy > 198 > Samanadhika varjitha > She who is incomparable > 199 > Sarva shakthi mayi > She who has personification of all strengths > 200 > Sarva mangala > She who is personification of all that is good > 201 > Sad gathi prada > She who gives us good path > 202 > Sarveshwari > She who is goddess of all > 203 > Sarva mayi > She who is everywhere > 204 > Sarva manthra swaroopini > She who is personification of all manthras > 205 > Sarva yanthrathmika > She who is represented by all yantras(Talisman) > 206 > Sarva thanthra roopa > She who is also goddess of all Thanthras which is a method of worship > 207 > Manonmani > She who is the result of mental thoughts of thoughts and actions > 208 > Maaheswari > She who is the consort of Maheswara (Lord of everything) > 209 > Mahaa devi > She who is the consort of Mahe Deva(God of all gods) > 210 > Maha lakshmi > She who takes the form of Mahalaksmi, the goddess of wealth > 211 > Mrida priya > She who is dear to Mrida (a name of Lord Shiva) > 212 > Maha roopa > She who is very big > 213 > Maha poojya > She who is fit to be worshipped by great people > 214 > Maha pathaka nasini > She who destroys the major misdemeanors > 215 > Maha maya > She who is the great illusion > 216 > Maha sathva > She who is greatly knowledgeable > 217 > Maha sakthi > She who is very strong > 218 > Maha rathi > She who gives great happiness > 219 > Maha bhoga > She who enjoys great pleasures > 220 > Mahaiswarya > She who has great wealth > 221 > Maha veerya > She who has great valour > 222 > Maha bala > She who is very strong > 223 > Maha bhudhi > She who is very intelligent > 224 > Maha sidhi > She who has great super natural powers > 225 > Maha yogeswareswari > She who is goddess of great yogis > 226 > Mahathanthra > She who has the greatest Thantra sasthras > 227 > Mahamanthra > She who has the greatest manthras > 228 > Mahayanthra > She who has the greatest yanthras > 229 > Mahasana > She who has the greatest seat > 230 > Maha yaga kramaradhya > She who should be worshipped by performing great sacrifices( Bhavana yaga and Chidagni Kunda yaga) > 231 > Maha bhairava poojitha > She who is being worshipped by the great Bhairava > 232 > Maheswara Mahakalpa Maha thandava sakshini > She who will be the witness to the great dance to be performed by the great lord at the end of the worlds > 233 > Maha kamesha mahishi > She who is the prime consort of the great Kameshwara > 234 > Maha tripura sundari > She who is the beauty of the three great cities > 235 > Chatustatyupacharadya > She who should be worshipped with sixty four offerings > 236 > Chathu sashti kala mayi > She who has sixty four sections > 237 > Maha Chathusashti kodi yogini gana sevitha > She who is being worshipped by the sixty four crore yoginis in the nine different charkas > 238 > Manu Vidya > She who is personification of Sri Vidya as expounded by Manu > 239 > Chandra Vidya > She who is personification of Sri Vidya as expounded by Moon > 240 > Chandra mandala Madhyaga > She who is in the center of the universe around the moon > 241 > Charu Roopa > She who is very beautiful > 242 > Charu Hasa > She who has a beautiful smile > 243 > Charu Chandra Kaladhara > She who wears the beautiful crescent > 244 > Charachara Jagannatha > She who is the Lord of all moving and immobile things > 245 > Chakra Raja Nikethana > She who lives in the middle of Sree Chakra > 246 > Parvathi > She who is the daughter of the mountain > 247 > Padma nayana > She who has eyes like the lotus > 248 > Padma raga samaprabha > She who shines as much as the Padma Raga jewel > 249 > Pancha prethasana seena > She who sits on the seat of five dead bodies ( these are Brahma , Vishnu, Rudra, Eesa and Sadasiva without their Shakthi(consort)) > 250 > Pancha brahma swaroopini > She who is personification of five brahmas ( they are the gods mentioned in the last name with their Shakthi) > 251 > Chinmayi > She who is the personification action in every thing > 252 > Paramananda > She who is supremely happy > 253 > Vignana Gana Roopini > She who is the personification of knowledge based on science > 254 > Dhyana Dhyathru dhyeya roopa > She who is personification of meditation, the being who meditates and what is being meditated upon > 255 > Dharmadhrama vivarjitha > She who is beyond Dharma (justice) and Adharma(injustice) > 256 > Viswa roopa > She who has the form of the universe > 257 > Jagarini > She who is always awake > 258 > Swapanthi > She who is always in the state of dream > 259 > Thaijasathmika > She who is the form of Thaijasa which is microbial concept > 260 > Suptha > She who is in deep sleep > 261 > Prangnathmika > She who is awake > 262 > Thurya > She who is in trance > 263 > Sarvavastha vivarjitha > She who is above all states > 264 > Srishti karthri > She who creates > 265 > Brahma roopa > She who is the personification of ultimate > 266 > Gopthri > She who saves > 267 > Govinda roopini > She who is of the form of Govinda > 268 > Samharini > She who destroys > 269 > Rudhra roopa > She who is of the form of Rudhra > 270 > Thirodhana kari > She who hides herself from us > 271 > Eeswari > She who is of the form of easwara > 272 > Sadashivaa > She who is of the form of Sadashiva > 273 > Anugrahada > She who blesses > 274 > Pancha krithya parayana > She who is engaged in the five duties of creation, existence, dissolving, disappearing, and blessing > 275 > Bhanu mandala madhyastha > She who is in the middle of the sun’s universe > 276 > Bhairavi > She who is the consort of Bhairava > 277 > Bhaga malini > She who is the goddess bhaga malini > 278 > Padmasana > She who sits on a lotus > 279 > Bhagavathi > She who is with all wealth and knowledge > 280 > Padmanabha sahodari > She who is the sister of Vishnu > 281 > Unmesha nimishotpanna vipanna bhuvanavali > She who creates and destroys the universe by opening and closing of her eye lids > 282 > Sahasra seersha vadana > She who has thousands of faces and heads > 283 > Saharakshi > She who has thousands of eyes > 284 > Sahasra path > She who has thousands of feet > 285 > Aabrahma keeda janani > She has created all beings from worm to Lord Brahma > 286 > Varnashrama vidhayini > She who created the four fold division of society > 287 > Nijangna roopa nigama > She who gave orders which are based on Vedas > 288 > Punyapunya phala pradha > She who gives compensation for sins and good deeds > 289 > Sruthi seemantha kula sindhoori kritha padabjha dhooliga > She whose dust from her lotus feet is the sindhoora fills up in the parting of the hair of the Vedic mother > 290 > Sakalagama sandoha shukthi samputa maukthika > She who is like the pearl in the pearl holding shell of Vedas > 291 > Purashartha pradha > She who gives us the purusharthas of Charity, assets, joy and moksha > 292 > Poorna > She who is complete > 293 > Bhogini > She who enjoys pleasures > 294 > Bhuvaneshwari > She who is the Goddess presiding over the universe > 295 > Ambika > She who is the mother of the world > 296 > Anadhi nidhana > She who does not have either end or beginning > 297 > Hari brahmendra sevitha > She who is served by Gods like Vishnu,Indra and Brahma > 298 > Naarayani > She who is like Narayana > 299 > Naada roopa > She who is the shape of music (sound) > 300 > Nama roopa vivarjitha > She who does not have either name or shape > 301 > Hrim kari > She who makes the holy sound Hrim > 302 > Harimathi > She who is shy > 303 > Hrudya > She who is in the heart (devotees) > 304 > Heyopadeya varjitha > She who does not have aspects which can be accepted or rejected > 305 > Raja rajarchitha > She who is being worshipped by king of kings > 306 > Rakhini > She who is the queen of Kameshwara > 307 > Ramya > She who makes others happy > 308 > Rajeeva lochana > She who is lotus eyed > 309 > Ranjani > She who by her red colour makes Shiva also red > 310 > Ramani > She who plays with her devotees > 311 > Rasya > She who feeds the juice of everything > 312 > Ranath kinkini mekhala > She who wears the golden waist band with tinkling bells > 313 > Ramaa > She who is like Lakshmi > 314 > Raakendu vadana > She who has a face like the full moon > 315 > Rathi roopa > She who attracts others with her features like Rathi (wife of God of love-Manmatha) > 316 > Rathi priya > She who likes Rathi > 317 > Rakshaa kari > She who protects > 318 > Rakshasagni > She who kills Rakshasas-ogres opposed to the heaven > 319 > Raamaa > She who is feminine > 320 > Ramana lampata > She who is interested in making love to her lord > 321 > Kaamya > She who is of the form of love > 322 > Kamakala roopa > She who is the personification of the art of love > 323 > Kadambha kusuma priya > She who likes the flowers of Kadamba > 324 > Kalyani > She who does good > 325 > Jagathi kandha > She who is like a root to the world > 326 > Karuna rasa sagara > She who is the sea of the juice of mercy > 327 > Kalavathi > She who is an artist or she who has crescents > 328 > Kalaalapa > She whose talk is artful > 329 > Kaantha > She who glitters > 330 > Kadambari priya > She who likes the wine called Kadambari or She who likes long stories > 331 > Varadha > She who gives boons > 332 > Vama nayana > She who has beautiful eyes > 333 > Vaaruni madha vihwala > She who gets drunk with the wine called varuni(The wine of happiness) > 334 > Viswadhika > She who is above all universe > 335 > Veda vedya > She who can be understood by Vedas > 336 > Vindhyachala nivasini > She who lives on Vindhya mountains > 337 > Vidhatri > She who carries the world > 338 > Veda janani > She who created the Vedas > 339 > Vishnu maya > She who lives as the Vishnu maya > 340 > Vilasini > She who enjoys love making > 341 > Kshetra swaroopa > She who is personification of the Kshetra or body > 342 > Kshetresi > She who is goddess of bodies > 343 > Kshethra kshethragna palini > She who looks after bodies and their lord > 344 > Kshaya vridhi nirmuktha > She who neither decreases or increases > 345 > Kshetra pala samarchitha > She who is worshipped by those who look after bodies > 346 > Vijaya > She who is always victorious > 347 > Vimala > She who is clean of ignorance and illusion > 348 > Vandhya > She who is being worshipped by every body > 349 > Vandharu jana vatsala > She who has affection towards all those who worship her > 350 > Vaag vadhini > She who uses words with great effect in arguments > 351 > Vama kesi > She who has beautiful hair > 352 > Vahni mandala vaasini > She who lives in the universe of fire which is Mooladhara > 353 > Bhakthi mat kalpa lathika > She who is the wish giving creeper Kalpaga > 354 > Pasu pasa vimochani > She who removes shackles from the living > 355 > Samhrutha sesha pashanda > She who destroys those people who have left their faith > 356 > Sadachara pravarthika > She who makes things happen through good conduct > 357 > Thapatryagni santhaptha samahladahna chandrika > She who is like the pleasure giving moon to those who suffer from the three types of pain > 358 > Tharuni > She who is ever young > 359 > Thapasa aradhya > She who is being worshipped by sages > 360 > Thanu Madhya > She who has a narrow middle (hip) > 361 > Thamopaha > She who destroys darkness > 362 > Chithi > She who is personification of wisdom > 363 > Thatpada lakshyartha > She who is the indicative meaning of the word “thath” which is the first word of vedic saying “that thou art” > 364 > Chidekara swaroopini > She who is wisdom through out > 365 > Swathmananda lavi bhootha brahmadyanantha santhathi > She who in her ocean of wisdom makes Wisdom about Brahmam look like a wave > 366 > Paraa > She who is the outside meaning of every thing > 367 > Prathyak chidi roopa > She who makes us look for wisdom inside > 368 > Pasyanthi > She who sees everything within herself > 369 > Para devatha > She who gives power to all gods > 370 > Madhyama > She who is in the middle of everything > 371 > Vaikhari roopa > She who is of the form with words > 372 > Bhaktha manasa hamsikha > She who is like a swan in the lake called mind > 373 > Kameshwara prana nadi > She who is the life source of Kameswara > 374 > Kruthagna > She who watches all actions of every one or She who knows all > 375 > Kama poojitha > She who is being worshipped by the god of love in the kama giri peeta of Mooladhara chakra-Kama > 376 > Srungara rasa sampoorna > She who is lovely > 377 > Jayaa > She who is personification of victory > 378 > Jalandhara sthitha > She who is on Jalandhara peetha or She who is purest of the pure > 379 > Odyana peeda nilaya > She who is on Odyana peetha or She who lives in orders > 380 > Bindu mandala vaasini > She who lives in the dot in the center of Srichakra > 381 > Raho yoga kramaradhya > She who can be worshipped by secret sacrificial rites > 382 > Rahas tarpana tarpitha > She who is pleased of chants knowing its meaning > 383 > Sadya prasadini > She who is pleased immediately > 384 > Viswa sakshini > She who is the witness for the universe > 385 > Sakshi varjitha > She who does not have witness for herself > 386 > Shadanga devatha yuktha > She who has her six parts as gods viz., heart, head, hair. Battle dress, eyes and arrows > 387 > Shadgunya paripooritha > She who is full of six characteristics viz., wealth, duty, fame, knowledge, assets and renunciation > 388 > Nithya klinna > She in whose heart there is always mercy > 389 > Nirupama > She who does not have anything to be compared to > 390 > Nirvanasukha dayini > She who gives redemption > 391 > Nithya shodasika roopa > She who is of the form sixteen goddesses > 392 > Sri kandartha sareerini > She who occupies half the body of Lord Shiva > 393 > Prabhavathi > She who is lustrous of supernatural powers > 394 > Prabha roopa > She who is personification of the light provided by super natural powers > 395 > Prasiddha > She who is famous > 396 > Parameshwari > She who is the ultimate goddess > 397 > Moola prakrithi > She who is the root cause > 398 > Avyaktha > She who is not clearly seen > 399 > Vyktha Avyaktha swaroopini > She who is visible and not visible > 400 > Vyapini > She who is spread everywhere > 401 > Vividhakara > She who has several different forms > 402 > Vidhya avidhya swaroopini > She who is the form of knowledge as well as ignorance > 403 > Maha kamesha nayana kumudahladha kaumudhi > She who is like the full moon which opens the lotus like eyes of Lord Kameshwara > 404 > Bhaktha hardha thamo bedha bhanu mat bhanu santhathi > She who is like the sun’s rays which remove the darkness from the heart of devotees > 405 > Shivadhoothi > She who sent Shiva as her representative > 406 > Shivaradhya > She who is worshipped by Lord Shiva > 407 > Shiva moorthi > She who is of the form of Lord Shiva > 408 > Shivangari > She who makes good to happen > 409 > Shiva priya > She who is dear to Lord Shiva > 410 > Shivapara > She who does not have any other interest except Lord Shiva > 411 > Shishteshta > She who likes people with good habits > 412 > Shishta poojitha > She who is being worshipped by good people > 413 > Aprameya > She who cannot be measured > 414 > Swaprakasha > She who has her own luster > 415 > Mano vachama gochara > She who is beyond the mind and the word > 416 > Chitsakthi > She who is the strength of holy knowledge > 417 > Chethana roopa > She who is the personification of the power behind action > 418 > Jada shakthi > She who is the strength of the immobile > 419 > Jadathmikha > She who is the world of immobile > 420 > Gayathri > She who is Gayathri > 421 > Vyahruthi > She who is the grammar originating from letters > 422 > Sandhya > She who is the union of souls and the God > 423 > Dwija brinda nishewitha > She who is being worshipped by all beings > 424 > Tatwasana > She who sits on principles > 425 > Tat > She who is that > 426 > Twam > She who is you > 427 > Ayee > She who is the mother > 428 > Pancha kosandara sthitha > She who is in between the five holy parts > 429 > Nissema mahima > She who has limitless fame > 430 > Nithya youawana > She who is ever young > 431 > Madha shalini > She who shines by her exuberance > 432 > Madha goornitha rakthakshi > She who has rotating red eyes due to her exuberance > 433 > Madha patala khandaboo > She who has red cheeks due to excessive action > 434 > Chandana drava dhigdhangi > She who applies sandal paste all over her body > 435 > Champeya kusuma priya > She who likes the flowers of Champaka tree > 436 > Kusala > She who is intelligent > 437 > Komalakara > She who has soft beautiful form > 438 > Kuru kulla > She who is of the form of Kuru kulla devi who lives in Vimarsa > 439 > Kuleshwari > She who is the goddess for the clan > 440 > Kula kundalaya > She who lives in kula kunda or She who is the power called Kundalani > 441 > Kaula marga that para sevitha > She who is being worshipped by people who follow Kaula matha > 442 > Kumara gana nadambha > She who is mother to Ganesha and Subrahmanya > 443 > Thushti > She who is personification of happiness > 444 > Pushti > She who is personification of health > 445 > Mathi > She who is personification of wisdom > 446 > Dhrithi > She who is personification of courage > 447 > Santhi > She who is peaceful > 448 > Swasthimathi > She who always keeps well > 449 > Kanthi > She who is personification of light > 450 > Nandhini > She who is personification of Nadhini daughter of Kama denu > 451 > Vigna nasini > She who removes obstacles > 452 > Tejowathi > She who shines > 453 > Trinayana > She who has three eyes > 454 > Lolakshi-Kamaroopini > She who has wandering passionate eyes > 455 > Malini > She who wears a garland > 456 > Hamsini > She who is surrounded by swans > 457 > Matha > She who is the mother > 458 > Malayachala vasini > She who lives in the Malaya mountain > 459 > Sumukhi > She who has a pleasing disposition > 460 > Nalini > She who is tender > 461 > Subru > She who has beautiful eyelids > 462 > Shobhana > She who brings good things > 463 > Sura Nayika > She who is the leader of devas > 464 > Kala kanti > She who is the consort of he who killed the god of death > 465 > Kanthi mathi > She who has ethereal luster > 466 > Kshobhini > She who creates high emotions or She who gets agitated > 467 > Sukshma roopini > She who has a micro stature > 468 > Vajreshwari > She who is Vajreswari (lord of diamonds) who occupies jalandhara peetha > 469 > Vamadevi > She who is the consort of Vama deva > 470 > Vayovastha vivarjitha > She who does not change with age > 471 > Sidheswari > She who is the goddess of Siddhas (saints with super natural powers) > 472 > Sidha vidya > She who is personification of pancha dasa manthra which is called siddha vidya > 473 > Sidha matha > She who is the mother of Siddhas > 474 > Yasawini > She who is famous > 475 > Vishudhichakra Nilaya > She who is in sixteen petalled lotus > 476 > Aarakthavarni > She who is slightly red > 477 > Trilochana > She who has three eyes > 478 > Khadwangadhi prakarana > She who has arms like the sword > 479 > Vadanaika samavidha > She who has one face > 480 > Payasanna priya > She who likes sweet rice (Payasam) > 481 > Twakstha > She who lives in the sensibility of the skin > 482 > Pasu loka Bhayamkari > She who creates fear for animal like men > 483 > Amruthathi maha sakthi samvrutha > She who is surrounded by Maha shakthis like Amrutha,Karshini, Indrani, Eesani, uma,Urdwa kesi > 484 > Dakineeswari > She who is goddess of the south(denoting death) > 485 > Anahathabja nilaya > She who lives in the twelve petalled lotus > 486 > Syamabha > She who is greenish black > 487 > Vadanadwaya > She who has two faces > 488 > Dhamshtrojwala > She who shines with long protruding teeth > 489 > Aksha maladhi dhara > She who wears meditation chains > 490 > Rudhira samsthida > She who is in blood > 491 > Kala rathryadhi Shakthi youga vrudha > She who is surrounded by Shakthis like Kalarathri. Kanditha, Gayathri,  .etc > 492 > Sniggdowdhana priya > She who likes Ghee mixed rice > 493 > Maha veerendra varadha > She who gives boons to great heroes or She who gives boons to great sages > 494 > Rakinyambha swaroopini > She who has names like rakini > 495 > Mani poorabja nilaya > She who lives in ten petalled lotus > 496 > Vadana thraya samyudha > She who has three faces > 497 > Vajradhikayudhopetha > She who has weapons like Vajrayudha > 498 > Damaryadhibhi ravrutha > She who is surrounded by Goddess like Damari > 499 > Raktha varna > She who is of the colour of blood > 500 > Mamsa nishta > She who is in flesh > 501 > Gudanna preetha manasa > She who likes rice mixed with jaggery > 502 > Samastha bhaktha sukhadha > She who gives pleasure to all her devotees > 503 > Lakinyambha swaroopini > She who is famous in the name of “Lakini” > 504 > Swadhishtanambujagatha > She who lives in the six petalled lotus > 505 > Chathur vakthra manohara > She who has four beautiful faces > 506 > Sulayudha sampanna > She who has weapons like Spear > 507 > Peetha varna > She who is of golden colour > 508 > Adhi garvitha > She who is very proud > 509 > Medho nishta > She who is in the fatty layer > 510 > Madhu preetha > She who likes honey > 511 > Bhandinyadhi samanvidha > She who is surrounded by Shakthis called Bandhini > 512 > Dhadyanna saktha hridhaya > She who likes curd rice > 513 > Kakini roopa dharini > She who resembles “Kakini” > 514 > Mooladrambujarooda > She who sits on the mooladhara kamala or the lotus which is the basic support > 515 > Pancha vakthra > She who has five faces > 516 > Sthithi samsthitha > She who is in the bones > 517 > Ankusathi praharana > She who holds Ankusha and other weapons > 518 > Varadadhi nishevitha > She who is surrounded by Vardha and other shakthis > 519 > Mudgou danasaktha chittha > She who likes rice mixed with green gram dhal > 520 > Sakinyambha swaroopini > She who has the name “Sakini” > 521 > Agna chakrabja nilaya > She who sits on the lotus called Agna chakra or the wheel of order > 522 > Shukla varna > She who is white coloured > 523 > Shadanana > She who has six faces > 524 > Majja samstha > She who is in the fat surrounding the body > 525 > Hamsavathi mukhya shakthi samanvitha > She who is surrounded by shakthis called Hamsavathi > 526 > Hardrannaika rasika > She who likes rice mixed with turmeric powder > 527 > Hakini roopa dharini > She who has the name “Hakini” > 528 > Sahasra dhala padhmastha > She who sits on thousand petalled lotus > 529 > Sarva varnopi shobitha > She who shines in all colours > 530 > Sarvayudha dhara > She who is armed with all weapons > 531 > Shukla samsthitha > She who is in shukla or semen > 532 > Sarvathomukhi > She who has faces everywhere > 533 > Sarvou dhana preetha chittha > She who likes all types of rice > 534 > Yakinyambha swaroopini > She who is named as “yakini” > 535 > Swaha > She who is personification of Swaha ( the manthra chanted during fire sacrifice ) > 536 > Swadha > She who is of the form of Swadha > 537 > Amathi > She who is ignorance > 538 > Medha > She who is knowledge > 539 > Sruthi > She who is Vedas > 540 > Smrithi > She who is the guide to Vedas > 541 > Anuthama > She who is above all > 542 > Punya keerthi > She who is famous for good deeds > 543 > Punya labhya > She who can be attained by good deeds > 544 > Punya sravana keerthana > She who gives good for those who listen and those who sing about her > 545 > Pulomajarchidha > She who is worshipped by wife of Indra > 546 > Bandha mochini > She who releases us from bondage > 547 > Barbharalaka > She who has forelocks which resembles waves > 548 > Vimarsa roopini > She who is hidden from view > 549 > Vidhya > She who is “learning” > 550 > Viyadhadhi jagat prasu > She who created the earth and the sky > 551 > Sarva vyadhi prasamani > She who cures all diseases > 552 > Sarva mrutyu nivarini > She who avoids all types of death > 553 > Agra ganya > She who is at the top > 554 > Achintya roopa > She who is beyond thought > 555 > Kali kalmasha nasini > She who removes the ills of the dark age > 556 > Kathyayini > She who is Kathyayini in Odyana peetha or She who is the daughter of sage Kathyayana > 557 > Kala hanthri > She who kills god of death > 558 > Kamalaksha nishevitha > She who is being worshipped by the lotus eyed Vishnu > 559 > Thamboola pooritha mukhi > She whose mouth is filled with betel leaves , betel nut and lime > 560 > Dhadimi kusuma prabha > She whose colour is like the pomegranate bud > 561 > Mrgakshi > She who has eyes like deer > 562 > Mohini > She who bewitches > 563 > Mukhya > She who is the chief > 564 > Mridani > She who gives pleasure > 565 > Mithra roopini > She who is of the form of Sun > 566 > Nithya Truptha > She who is satisfied always > 567 > Bhaktha Nidhi > She who is the treasure house of devotees > 568 > Niyanthri > She who controls > 569 > Nikhileswari > She who is goddess for every thing > 570 > Maitryadhi vasana Labhya > She who can be attained by habits like Maithree (friendship) > 571 > Maha pralaya sakshini > She who is the witness to the great deluge > 572 > Para Shakthi > She who is the end strength > 573 > Para Nishta > She who is at the end of concentration > 574 > Prgnana Gana roopini > She who is personification of all superior knowledge > 575 > Madhvi pana lasaa > She who is not interested in anything else due to drinking of toddy > 576 > Matha > She who appears to be fainted > 577 > Mathruka varna roopini > She who is the model of colour and shape > 578 > Maha Kailasa nilaya > She who sits on Maha Kailasa > 579 > Mrinala mrudhu dhorllatha > She who has arms as tender as lotus stalk > 580 > Mahaneeya > She who is fit to be venerated > 581 > Dhaya moorthi > She who is personification of mercy > 582 > Maha samrajya shalini > She who is the chef of all the worlds > 583 > Atma vidhya > She who is the science of soul > 584 > Maha Vidhya > She who is the great knowledge > 585 > Srividhya > She who is the knowledge of Goddess > 586 > Kama sevitha > She who is worshipped by Kama, the God of love > 587 > Sri Shodasakshari vidhya > She who is the sixteen lettered knowledge > 588 > Trikoota > She who is divided in to three parts > 589 > Kama Kotika > She who sits on Kama Koti peetha > 590 > Kataksha kimkari bhootha kamala koti sevitha > She who is attended by crores of Lakshmis who yearn for her simple glance > 591 > Shira sthitha > She who is in the head > 592 > Chandra nibha > She who is like the full moon > 593 > Bhalastha > She who is in the forehead > 594 > Indra Dhanu Prabha > She who is like the rain bow > 595 > Hridayastha > She who is in the heart > 596 > Ravi pragya > She who has luster like Sun God > 597 > Tri konanthara deepika > She who is like a light in a triangle > 598 > Dakshayani > She who is the daughter of Daksha > 599 > Dhithya hanthri > She who kills asuras > 600 > Daksha yagna vinasini > She who destroyed the sacrifice of Rudra > 601 > Dharandholitha deergakshi > She who has long eyes which have slight movement > 602 > Dharahasojwalanmukhi > She who has face that glitters with her smile > 603 > Guru moorthi > She who is the teacher > 604 > Guna nidhi > She who is the treasure house of good qualities > 605 > Gomatha > She who is the mother cow > 606 > Guhajanma bhoo > She who is the birth place of Lord Subrahmanya > 607 > Deveshi > She who is the goddess of Gods > 608 > Dhanda neethistha > She who judges and punishes > 609 > Dhaharakasa roopini > She who is of the form of wide sky > 610 > Prathi panmukhya rakantha thidhi mandala poojitha > She who is being worshipped on all the fifteen days from full moon to new moon > 611 > Kalathmika > She who is the soul of arts > 612 > Kala nadha > She who is the chief of arts > 613 > Kavya labha vimodhini > She who enjoys being described in epics > 614 > Sachamara rama vani savya dhakshina sevitha > She who is being fanned by Lakshmi the goddess of wealth and Saraswathi the goddess of knowledge > 615 > Adishakthi > She who is the primeval force > 616 > Ameya > She who cannot be measured > 617 > Atma > She who is the soul > 618 > Parama > She who is better than all others > 619 > Pavana krithi > She who is personification of purity > 620 > Aneka koti Bramanda janani > She who is the mother of several billions of universes > 621 > Divya Vigraha > She who is beautifully made > 622 > Klim karee > She who is the shape of “Klim” > 623 > Kevalaa > She who is she herself > 624 > Guhya > She who is secret > 625 > Kaivalya Padha dhayini > She who gives redemption as well as position > 626 > Tripura > She who lives everything in three aspects > 627 > Trijagat vandhya > She who is worshipped by all in three worlds > 628 > Trimurthi > She who is the trinity > 629 > Tri daseswari > She who is the goddess for all gods > 630 > Tryakshya > She who is of the form of three letters > 631 > Divya Gandhadya > She who has godly smell > 632 > Sindhura thila kanchidha > She who wears the sindhoora dot in her forehead > 633 > Uma > She who is in “om” > 634 > Sailendra Thanaya > She who is the daughter of the king of mountains > 635 > Gowri > She who is white coloured > 636 > Gandharwa Sevitha > She who is worshipped by gandharwas > 637 > Viswa Grabha > She who carries the universe in her belly > 638 > Swarna Garbha > She who is personification of gold > 639 > Avaradha > She who punishes bad people > 640 > Vagadeeswaree > She who is the goddess of words > 641 > Dhyanagamya > She who can be attained by meditation > 642 > Aparichedya > She who cannot be predicted to be in a certain place > 643 > Gnadha > She who gives out knowledge > 644 > Gnana Vigraha > She who is personification of knowledge > 645 > Sarva vedhantha samvedya > She who can be known by all Upanishads > 646 > Satyananda swaroopini > She who is personification of truth and happiness > 647 > Lopa mudrarchitha > She who is worshipped by Lopa Mudhra the wife of Agasthya > 648 > Leela kluptha brahmanda mandala > She who creates the different universes by simple play > 649 > Adurshya > She who cannot be seen > 650 > Drusya rahitha > She who does not see things differently > 651 > Vignathree > She who knows all sciences > 652 > Vedhya varjitha > She who does not have any need to know anything > 653 > Yogini > She who is personification of Yoga > 654 > Yogadha > She who gives knowledge and experience of yoga > 655 > Yogya > She who can be reached by yoga > 656 > Yogananda > She who gets pleasure out of yoga > 657 > Yugandhara > She who wears the yuga (Division of eons of time) > 658 > Iccha shakthi-Gnana shakthi-Kriya shakthi swaroopini > She who has desire as her head, Knowledge as her body and work as her feet > 659 > Sarvaadhara > She who is the basis of everything > 660 > Suprathishta > She who is the best place of stay > 661 > Sada sadroopa dharini > She who always has truth in her > 662 > Ashta moorthy > She who has eight forms > 663 > Aja jethree > She who has won over ignorance > 664 > Loka yathra vidahyini > She who makes the world rotate(travel) > 665 > Ekakini > She who is only herself and alone > 666 > Bhooma roopa > She who is what we see , hear and understand > 667 > Nirdwaitha > She who makes everything as one > 668 > Dwaitha varjitha > She who is away from “more than one” > 669 > Annadha > She who gives food > 670 > Vasudha > She who gives wealth > 671 > Vriddha > She who is old > 672 > Brhmatmykya swaroopini > She who merges herself in brahma-the ultimate truth > 673 > Brihathi > She who is big > 674 > Brahmani > She who is the wife of easwara > 675 > Brahmi > She who has one aspect of Brhma > 676 > Brahmananda > She who is the ultimate happiness > 677 > Bali priya > She who likes the strong > 678 > Bhasha roopa > She who is personification of language > 679 > Brihat sena > She who has big army > 680 > Bhavabhava vivarjitha > She who does not have birth or death > 681 > Sukharadhya > She who can be worshipped with pleasure > 682 > Shubhakaree > She who does good > 683 > Shobhana sulabha gathi > She who is easy to attain and does only good > 684 > Raja rajeswari > She who is goddess to king of kings like Devaraja, Yaksha raja, , Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra > 685 > Rajya Dhayini > She who gives kingdoms like Vaikunta, kailasa etc > 686 > Rajya vallabha > She who likes such kingdoms > 687 > Rajat krupa > She whose mercy shines everywhere > 688 > Raja peetha nivesitha nijasritha > She who makes people approaching her as kings > 689 > Rajya lakshmi > She who is the wealth of kingdoms > 690 > Kosa natha > She who protects the treasury > 691 > Chathuranga baleswai > She who is the leader of the four fold army (Mind, brain, thought and ego) > 692 > Samrajya Dhayini > She who makes you emperor > 693 > Sathya Sandha > She who is truthful > 694 > Sagara Mekhala > She who is the earth surrounded by the sea > 695 > Deekshitha > She who gives the right to do fire sacrifice > 696 > Dhaitya Shamani > She who controls anti gods > 697 > Sarva loka vasam kari > She who keeps all the world within her control > 698 > Sarvartha Dhatri > She who gives all wealth > 699 > Savithri > She who is shines like the sun > 700 > Sachidananda roopini > She who is personification of the ultimate truth > 701 > Desa kala parischinna > She who is not divided by region or time > 702 > Sarvaga > She who is full of everywhere > 703 > Sarva mohini > She who attracts every thing > 704 > Saraswathi > She who is the goddess of knowledge > 705 > Sasthra mayi > She who is the meaning of sciences > 706 > Guhamba > She who is mother of Lord Subrahmanya (Guha) > 707 > Guhya roopini > She whose form is hidden from all > 708 > Sarvo padhi vinirmuktha > She who does not have any doctrines > 709 > Sada shiva pathi vritha > She who is devoted wife for all times to Lord Shiva > 710 > Sampradhayeshwari > She who is goddess to rituals or She who is goddess to teacher-student hierarchy > 711 > Sadhu > She who is innocent > 712 > Ee > She who is the letter “e” > 713 > Guru mandala roopini > She who is the universe round teachers > 714 > Kulotheerna > She who is beyond the group of senses > 715 > Bhagaradhya > She who is to be worshipped in the universe round the sun > 716 > Maya > She who is illusion > 717 > Madhumathi > She who is the trance stage (seventh ) in yoga > 718 > Mahee > She who is personification of earth > 719 > Ganamba > She who is mother to Ganesha and bhootha ganas > 720 > Guhyakaradhya > She who should be worshipped in secret places > 721 > Komalangi > She who has beautiful limbs > 722 > Guru Priya > She who likes teachers > 723 > Swathanthra > She who is independent > 724 > Sarwa thanthresi > She who is goddess to all thanthras (tricks to attain God) > 725 > Dakshina moorthi roopini > She who is the personification of God facing South (The teacher form of Shiva) > 726 > Sanakadhi samaradhya > She who is being worshipped by Sanaka sages > 727 > Siva gnana pradhayini > She who gives the knowledge of God > 728 > Chid kala > She who is the micro power deep within > 729 > Ananda Kalika > She who is the happiness in beings > 730 > Prema roopa > She who is the form of love > 731 > Priyamkaree > She who does what is liked > 732 > Nama parayana preetha > She who likes repetition of her various names > 733 > Nandhi vidhya > She who is the knowledge taught by Nandi deva (The bull god on whom shiva rides) > 734 > Nateshwaree > She who is the goddess of dance > 735 > Mithya Jagat athishtana > She who is luck to this world of illusion > 736 > Mukthida > She who gives redemption > 737 > Mukthi roopini > She who is redemption > 738 > Lasya priya > She who likes feminine dance > 739 > Laya karee > She who is the bridge between dance and music > 740 > Lajja > She who is shy > 741 > Rambha adhi vandhitha > She who is worshipped by the celestial dancers > 742 > Bhava dhava sudha vrishti > She who douses the forest fire of the sad life of mortals with a rain of nectar. > 743 > Paparanya dhavanala > She who is the forest fire that destroys the forest of sin > 744 > Daurbhagya thoolavathoola > She who is the cyclone that blows away the cotton of bad luck. > 745 > Jaradwanthara viprabha > She who is the suns rays that swallows the darkness of old age > 746 > Bhagyabdhi chandrika > She who is the full moon to the sea of luck > 747 > Bhaktha Chitta Keki Ganagana > She who is the black cloud to the peacock which is he devotees mind > 748 > Roga parvatha Dhambola > She who is the Vajra weapon which breaks the sickness which is like the mountain > 749 > Mrutyu Dharu Kudarika > She who is like the axe which fells the tree of death > 750 > Maheswaree > She who is the greatest goddess > 751 > Maha kali > She who is the great Kalee > 752 > Maha grasa > She who is like a great drinking bowl > 753 > Mahasana > She who is the great eater > 754 > Aparna > She who did meditation without even eating a leaf > 755 > Chandika > She who is supremely angry > 756 > Chanda mundasura nishoodhini > She who killed the asuras called Chanda and Munda > 757 > Ksharaksharathmika > She who can never be destroyed and also destroyed > 758 > Sarva lokesi > She who is goddess to all the worlds > 759 > Viswa Dharini > She who carries all the universe > 760 > Thrivarga Dhathri > She who gives dharma, Assets and pleasure > 761 > Subhaga > She who is pleasing to look at > 762 > Thryambhaga > She who has three eyes > 763 > Trigunathmika > She who is personification of three gunas viz .,Thamo (Kali), Rajo (Dhurga) and Sathva (Parvathy) > 764 > Swargapavargadha > She who gives heaven and the way to it > 765 > Shuddha > She who is clean > 766 > Japapushpa nibhakrithi > She who has the colour of hibiscus > 767 > Ojovathi > She who is full of vigour > 768 > Dhyuthidhara > She who has light > 769 > Yagna roopa > She who is of the form of sacrifice > 770 > Priyavrudha > She who likes penances > 771 > Dhuraradhya > She who is rarely available for worship > 772 > Dhuradharsha > She who cannot be won > 773 > Patali kusuma priya > She who likes the buds of Patali tree > 774 > Mahathi > She who is big > 775 > Meru nilaya > She who lives in Meru mountain > 776 > Mandhara kusuma priya > She who likes the buds of Mandhara tree > 777 > Veeraradhya > She who is worshipped by heroes > 778 > Virad Roopa > She who a universal look > 779 > Viraja > She who does not have any blemish > 780 > Viswathomukhi > She who sees through every ones eyes > 781 > Prathyg roopa > She who can be seen by looking inside > 782 > Parakasa > She who is the great sky > 783 > Pranadha > She who gives the soul > 784 > Prana roopini > She who is the soul > 785 > Marthanda Bhairavaradhya > She who is being worshipped by Marthanda Bhairava > 786 > Manthrini nyashtha rajyadhoo > She who gave the power to rule to her form of Manthrini > 787 > Tripuresi > She who is the head of three cities > 788 > Jayatsena > She who has an army which wins > 789 > Nistrai gunya > She who is above the three qualities > 790 > Parapara > She who is outside and inside > 791 > Satya gnananda roopa > She who is personification of truth, knowledge and happiness > 792 > Samarasya parayana > She who stands in peace > 793 > Kapardhini > She who is the wife of Kapardhi (Siva with hair) > 794 > Kalamala > She who wears arts as garlands > 795 > Kamadhukh > She who fulfills desires > 796 > Kama roopini > She who can take any form > 797 > Kala nidhi > She who is the treasure of arts > 798 > Kavya kala > She who is the art of writing > 799 > Rasagna > She who appreciates arts > 800 > Rasa sevadhi > She who is the treasure of arts > 801 > Pushta > She who is healthy > 802 > Purathana > She who is ancient > 803 > Poojya > She who is fit to be worshipped > 804 > Pushkara > She who gives exuberance > 805 > Pushkarekshana > She who has lotus like eyes > 806 > Paramjyothi > She who is the ultimate light > 807 > Param dhama > She who is the ultimate resting place > 808 > Paramanu > She who is the ultimate atom > 809 > Parath para > She who is better than the best > 810 > Pasa Hastha > She who has rope in her hand > 811 > Pasa Hanthri > She who cuts off attachment > 812 > Para manthra Vibhedini > She who destroys the effect of spells cast > 813 > Moortha > She who has a form > 814 > Amoortha > She who does not have a form > 815 > Anithya thriptha > She who gets happy with prayers using temporary things > 816 > Muni manasa hamsika > She who is the swan in the mind ( lake like) of sages > 817 > Satya vritha > She who has resolved to speak only truth > 818 > Sathya roopa > She who is the real form > 819 > Sarvantharyamini > She who is within everything > 820 > Sathee > She who is Sathee the daughter of Daksha > 821 > Brahmani > She who is the strength behind creator > 822 > Brahmaa > She who is the creator > 823 > Janani > She who is the mother > 824 > Bahu roopa > She who has several forms > 825 > Budharchitha > She who is being worshipped by the enlightened > 826 > Prasavithri > She who has given birth to everything > 827 > Prachanda > She who is very angry > 828 > Aagna > She who is the order > 829 > Prathishta > She who has been installed > 830 > Prakata Krithi > She who is clearly visible > 831 > Praneshwari > She who is goddess to the soul > 832 > Prana Dhatri > She who gives the soul > 833 > Panchast peeta roopini > She who is in fifty Shakthi peethas like Kama ropa, Varanasi. Ujjain etc > 834 > Vishungala > She who is not chained > 835 > Vivikthastha > She who is in lonely places > 836 > Veera matha > She who is the mother of heroes > 837 > Viyat prasoo > She who has created the sky > 838 > Mukundaa > She who gives redemption > 839 > Mukthi nilaya > She who is the seat of redemption > 840 > Moola vigraha roopini > She who is the basic statue > 841 > Bavagna > She who understands wishes and thoughts > 842 > Bhava rokagni > She who cures the sin of birth > 843 > Bhava Chakra Pravarthani > She makes the wheel of birth rotate > 844 > Chanda sara > She who is the meaning of Vedas > 845 > Sasthra sara > She who is the meaning of Puranas(epics) > 846 > Manthra sara > She who is the meaning of Manthras ( chants) > 847 > Thalodharee > She who has a small belly > 848 > Udara keerthi > She who has wide and tall fame > 849 > Uddhhama vaibhava > She who has immeasurable fame > 850 > Varna roopini > She who is personification of alphabets > 851 > Janma mrutyu jara thaptha jana vishranthi dhayini > She who is the panacea of ills of birth, death and aging > 852 > Sarvopanisha dhudh gushta > She who is being loudly announced as the greatest by Upanishads > 853 > Shantyathheetha kalathmika > She who is a greater art than peace > 854 > Gambheera > She whose depth cannot be measured > 855 > Gagananthastha > She who is situated in the sky > 856 > Garvitha > She who is proud > 857 > Gana lolupa > She who likes songs > 858 > Kalpana rahitha > She who does not imagine > 859 > Kashta > She who is in the ultimate boundary > 860 > Akantha > She who removes sins > 861 > Kanthatha vigraha > She who is half of her husband (kantha) > 862 > Karya karana nirmuktha > She who is beyond the action and the cause > 863 > Kama keli tharangitha > She who is the waves of the sea of the play of the God > 864 > Kanath kanaka thadanga > She who wears the glittering golden ear studs > 865 > Leela vigraha dharini > She who assumes several forms as play > 866 > Ajha > She who does not have birth > 867 > Kshaya nirmuktha > She who does not have death > 868 > Gubdha > She who is beautiful > 869 > Ksipra prasadhini > She who is pleased quickly > 870 > Anthar mukha samaradhya > She who is worshipped by internal thoughts > 871 > Bahir mukha sudurlabha > She who can be attained by external prayers > 872 > Thrayee > She who is of the form of three Vedas viz Rik, yajur and sama > 873 > Trivarga nilaya > She who is in three aspects of self, assets and pleasure > 874 > Thristha > She who is in three > 875 > Tripura malini > She who is in tripura the sixth section of Srichakra > 876 > Niramaya > She who is without diseases > 877 > Niralamba > She who does not need another birth > 878 > Swatma rama > She who enjoys within herself > 879 > Sudha sruthi > She who is the rain of nectar > 880 > Samsara panga nirmagna samuddharana panditha > She who is capable of saving people who drown in the mud of day today life > 881 > Yagna priya > She who likes fire sacrifice > 882 > Yagna karthree > She who carries out fire sacrifice > 883 > Yajamana swaroopini > She who is the doer of fire sacrifice > 884 > Dharma dhara > She who is the basis of Dharma-the rightful action > 885 > Dhanadyaksha > She who presides over wealth > 886 > Dhanadhanya vivardhani > She who makes wealth and grain to grow > 887 > Vipra priya > She who likes those who learn Vedas > 888 > Vipra roopa > She who is the learner of Vedas > 889 > Viswa brhamana karini > She who makes the universe to rotate > 890 > Viswa grasa > She who eats the universe in one handful > 891 > Vidhrumabha > She who has the luster of coral > 892 > Vaishnavi > She who is the power of Vishnu > 893 > Vishnu roopini > She who is Vishnu > 894 > Ayoni > She who does not have a cause or She who is not born > 895 > Yoni nilaya > She who is the cause and source of everything > 896 > Kootastha > She who is stable > 897 > Kula roopini > She who is personification of culture > 898 > Veera goshti priya > She who likes company of heroes > 899 > Veera > She who has valour > 900 > Naish karmya > She who does not have attachment to action > 901 > Nadha roopini > She who is the form of sound > 902 > Vignana kalana > She who makes science > 903 > Kalya > She who is expert in arts > 904 > Vidhagdha > She who is an expert > 905 > Baindavasana > She who sits in the dot of the thousand petalled lotus > 906 > Tathwadhika > She who is above all metaphysics > 907 > Tatwa mayee > She who is Metaphysics > 908 > Tatwa Martha swaroopini > She who is personification of this and that > 909 > Sama gana priya > She who likes singing of sama > 910 > Soumya > She who is peaceful or She who is as pretty as the moon > 911 > Sada shiva kutumbini > She who is consort of Sada shiva > 912 > Savyapa savya margastha > She who is birth, death and living or She who likes the priestly and tantric methods > 913 > Sarva apadvi nivarini > She who removes all dangers > 914 > Swastha > She who has everything within her or She who is peaceful > 915 > Swabhava madura > She who is by nature sweet > 916 > Dheera > She who is courageous > 917 > Dheera samarchida > She who is being worshipped by the courageous > 918 > Chaithnyarkya samaradhya > She who is worshipped by the ablation of water > 919 > Chaitanya kusuma priya > She who likes the never fading flowers > 920 > Saddothitha > She who never sets > 921 > Sadha thushta > She who is always happy > 922 > Tharunadithya patala > She who like the young son is red mixed with white > 923 > Dakshina Daksinaradhya > She who is worshipped by the learned and ignorant > 924 > Dharasmera mukhambuja > She who has a smiling face like the lotus in full bloom > 925 > Kaulini kevala > She who is mixture of the koula and kevala methods > 926 > Anargya kaivalya pada dhayini > She who gives the immeasurable heavenly stature > 927 > Stotra priya > She who likes chants > 928 > Sthuthi mathi > She who gives boons for those who sing her chants > 929 > Sthuthi samsthutha vaibhava > She who is worshipped by the Vedas > 930 > Manaswaini > She who has a stable mind > 931 > Manavathi > She who has big heart > 932 > Mahesi > She who is the greatest goddess > 933 > Mangala kruthi > She who does only good > 934 > Viswa Matha > The mother of the universe > 935 > Jagat Dhathri > She who supports the world > 936 > Visalakshi > She who is broad eyed > 937 > Viragini > She who has renounced > 938 > Pragalbha > She who is courageous > 939 > Paramodhara > She who is great giver > 940 > Paramodha > She who has great happiness > 941 > Manomayi > She who is one with mind > 942 > Vyoma kesi > She who is the wife of Shiva who has sky as his hair > 943 > Vimanastha > She who is at the top > 944 > Vajrini > She who has indra’s wife as a part > 945 > Vamakeshwaree > She who is goddess of the people who follow the left path > 946 > Pancha yagna priya > She who likes the five sacrifices > 947 > Pancha pretha manchadhi sayini > She who sleeps on the cot made of five corpses > 948 > Panchami > She who is the consort of Sadshiva –the fifth of the pancha brahmas > 949 > Pancha bhoothesi > She who is the chief of Pancha bhoothas viz earth, sky, fire, air. And water > 950 > Pancha sankhyopacharini > She who is to be worshipped by five methods of Gandha(sandal wood), Pushpa(flower), Dhoopa(incense), dheepa(light), Naivedya(offering) > 951 > Saswathi > She who is permanent > 952 > Saswathaiswarya > She who gives perennial wealth > 953 > Sarmadha > She who gives pleasure > 954 > Sambhu mohini > She who bewitches Lord Shiva > 955 > Dhara > She who carries (beings like earth) > 956 > Dharasutha > She who is the daughter of the mountain > 957 > Dhanya > She who has all sort of wealth > 958 > Dharmini > She who likes dharma > 959 > Dharma vardhini > She who makes dharma grow > 960 > Loka theetha > She who is beyond the world > 961 > Guna theetha > She who is beyond properties > 962 > Sarvatheetha > She who is beyond everything > 963 > Samathmika > She who is peace > 964 > Bhandhooka kusuma prakhya > She who has the glitter of bhandhooka flowers > 965 > Bala > She who is a young maiden > 966 > Leela Vinodhini > She who loves to play > 967 > Sumangali > She who gives all good things > 968 > Sukha kari > She who gives pleasure > 969 > Suveshadya > She who is well made up > 970 > Suvasini > She who is sweet scented(married woman) > 971 > Suvasinyarchana preetha > She who likes the worship of married woman > 972 > AAshobhana > She who has full glitter > 973 > Shuddha manasa > She who has a clean mind > 974 > Bindhu tharpana santhushta > She who is happy with the offering in the dot of Ananda maya chakra > 975 > Poorvaja > She who preceded every one > 976 > Tripurambika > She who is the goddess of three cities > 977 > Dasa mudhra samaradhya > She who is worshipped by ten mudras(postures of the hand) > 978 > Thrpura sree vasankari > She who keeps the goddess Tripura sree > 979 > Gnana mudhra > She who shows the symbol of knowledge > 980 > Gnana gamya > She who can be attained by knowledge > 981 > Gnana gneya swaroopini > She who is what is thought and the thought > 982 > Yoni mudhra > She who shows the symbol of pleasure > 983 > Trikhandesi > She who is the lord of three zones of fire, moon and sun > 984 > Triguna > She who is three characters > 985 > Amba > She who is the mother > 986 > Trikonaga > She who has attained at all vertices of a triangle > 987 > Anaga > She who is not neared by sin > 988 > Adbutha charithra > She who has a wonderful history > 989 > Vanchithartha pradayini > She who gives what is desired > 990 > Abhyasathisaya gnatha > She who can be realized by constant practice > 991 > Shaddwatheetha roopini > She who supersedes the six methods of prayers > 992 > Avyaja karuna moorhy > She who shows mercy without reason > 993 > Agnana dwantha deepika > She who is the lamp that drives away ignorance > 994 > Abala gopa vidhitha > She who is worshipped by all right from children and cowherds > 995 > Sarvan ullangya sasana > She whose orders can never be disobeyed > 996 > Sri chakra raja nilaya > She who lives in Srichakra > 997 > Sri math thripura sundari > The beautiful goddess of wealth who is consort of the Lord of Tripura > 998 > Sri shivaa > She who is the eternal peace > 999 > Shiva shakthaikya roopini > She who is unification of Shiva and Shakthi > 1000 > Lalithambika > The easily approachable mother > > > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > >--------------------------------- >Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >reader-list mailing list >reader-list at sarai.net >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 134 >******************************************** Cell - 9818063517 From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 20:11:13 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Rama as a kudikaran In-Reply-To: <46F3D11E.9080807@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <875097.43310.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Tapas, Your post was the last one I saw in my mail box and just responded on karunanidhi. First of all no need to respond such comments. As you are exclusively looking out for something. > Questions then arise: > What exactly did "kudikaran" mean in Valmiki's time? Did it really mean "drunkard" as the story suggests? > > If it did mean "drunkard", in what context was the term used? (I hope you will agree that there can be no interpretation of a text without > reference to context.) > > If it did, did "drunkard" mean quite the same thing in Valmiki's time as it does now? > But what does it mean now? For some people, taking a single drink is enough to label one a drunkard. For others, a drunkard is someone who > is, or is tending to become, an alcoholic. Let karunanidhi (he is also poet)write his own way by having Madyapan and he already encouraged one VASTHRAPAHARAN in assembly. >>>Where do we stand? We all including karunanidhi need Ram as our sons,bridegrooms and rulers. This is where we exactly stand at our personal matters. Why do karunanidhi perform shraadda kriyas to his parents??? Why should his sons perform the same later if he die tomorrow??? Just go and ask him some body? I dont know and never understand where is the constitution, civic bodies,CVC(central vigilence commision), EC (Election commission), ACB (Anti corruption beauro) ,media so called and finally almighty is doing? Surely almighty is there and watching thats why tsunamis,earthquakes are coming to reduce the weight,caused due to increase of sins on earth. I hope you surely satisfied with this much of my writing compared to the preechings last time. Regards, Dhatri. Tapas Ray wrote: Dhatri, I assume you were responding to my post, because it is quoted in your response. But I do not see any reference to the issues I raised. I am a little confused. Best, Tapas we wi wrote: > How do people trust karunanidhi and care about his words? Its our sadness to see such a person re-elected as chief minister? The entire India know about the Jayalalitha episode and later incidents? Its a pity to humanity, forget ethics,faith,morality,belief ,mythology whatever. > Sethusamudram project is the recovery stunt of the money that he invested to distrubte colour TV'S during the last election. > He was a poet during his younger age, just imagine how violent he used to write and think. How can sarai people compare karunanidhi and valmiki. Let me describe him as a modern day deamon. Instead of spending time at VAANAPRASTHA what kind of governace will he give At the age of 88. Is he so kind and good to reelect again and again. > Actually after 60 anybody should be thrown out of whatever power. This amendment should be included in the Constitution. If need comes and system thinks about to use the experience of the 60 years, then just upto suggestion level is allowed and implementation, execution should be in the hands of system. > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > Pawan, > > I am not in VASP, but hope it's still ok for me to offer my two bits. > > I am not sure who you think should be condemned - Karunanidhi or Valmiki? > > The story at the link you have forwarded says Karunanidhi says Valmiki > called Ram "a kudikaran (drunkard)". If Valmiki did *not* call Ram > "kudikaran", Karunanidhi needs to be condemned right away, no questions > asked. > > On the other hand, if Valmiki did, there can be no question of > condemning Karunanidhi, even if you hate his dark glasses or his shawl - > or, as in my case, his determination to destroy the strait's marine > ecology. > > The issue of condemnation then shifts to poor old Valmiki who, I'm sure, > would have loved the spectacle of his trial by the censors. > > Questions then arise: > > What exactly did "kudikaran" mean in Valmiki's time? Did it really mean > "drunkard" as the story suggests? > > If it did mean "drunkard", in what context was the term used? (I hope > you will agree that there can be no interpretation of a text without > reference to context.) > > If it did, did "drunkard" mean quite the same thing in Valmiki's time as > it does now? > > But what does it mean now? For some people, taking a single drink is > enough to label one a drunkard. For others, a drunkard is someone who > is, or is tending to become, an alcoholic. > > So, where do we stand? > > Tapas > > > Pawan Durani wrote: >> No words from the elite intellectuals [ VASP ] ....not even a condemnation >> ! >> >> http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE920070920132940&Headline=Valmiki+said+Ram+was+a+drunkard:+Karunanidhi&Title=Chennai&Topic=0 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 10:13:58 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:13:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rama As KundiKaran In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709212121r5072ba31hf138967f865fb130@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709212121r5072ba31hf138967f865fb130@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709212143u6b5f39cfr48743287cc4fa1db@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sh RadhaKrishnan, NamaskAr While as I agree with most of your views , at the same time I do not believe that peoples faith should be open to questioning. If at all this questioning is done , why dont people dare to do it with other relegions ? I do not wish to say more about Karunandihi who is more of a politician and trying to be the only folower of his mentor and Guru . Periyar mayhave been a social reformer but his life was also full of controversies. It was him who was reported to have said that "Get Brahmin woman on streets and make them prostitues" . Which reformer would say so , if this is true ? While as both Karunandhi ^ Periyar spoke about Tamil superirity , Karunanidhi himself is basically of Kannada Origin . And Periyar had once said that "Tamil script" seems to be the script of barbarians and Tamil should be abolished for English. Even Periyar was not happy about Indias Independence from Britishers. Who , this all you can do in a country like India because it's a Hindu majority country where anyone can discrespect the faith of majority. Pawan From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 09:51:08 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:51:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rama As KundiKaran Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709212121r5072ba31hf138967f865fb130@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sh RadhaKrishnan, NamaskAr While as I agree with most of your views , at the same time I do not believe that peoples faith should be open to questioning. If at all this questioning is done , why dont people dare to do it with other relegions ? I do not wish to say more about Karunandihi who is more of a politician and trying to be the only folower of his mentor and Guru . Periyar mayhave been a social reformer but his life was also full of controversies. It was him who was reported to have said that "Get Brahmin woman on streets and make them prostitues" . Which reformer would say so , if this is true ? While as both Karunandhi ^ Periyar spoke about Tamil superirity , Karunanidhi himself is basically of Kannada Origin . And Periyar had once said that "Tamil script" seems to be the script of barbarians and Tamil should be abolished for English. Even Periyar was not happy about Indias Independence from Britishers. Who , this all you can do in a country like India because it's a Hindu majority country where anyone can discrespect the faith of majority. Pawan On 21 Sep 2007 06:24:21 -0000, Radhakrishnan wrote: > > This is with reference to Pawan Durani's Observation. > There is nothing to complain. India has been witness to various > progressive social movements which have been consistently questioning > superstitions, religious dogmas and unequal social order > sanctioned/sanctified by so called religious texts. One can't deny the > contribution of Mahatma Phule, Ambedkar and Periyar.One must also bear in > mind that no religious belief/value should be held sacrosanct moreso in a > country where a substancial section of the population is marginalised and > humiliated by a brahminical code of conduct. > > However ironical is the stray comments made by the DMK chief whose party > has carefully modelled on the lines of any other dominant chauvanistic group > which derives its strentgh primarilly by parachial and caste prejudices. It > stands closer to shiv sena in terms of its ideology, value system of other > Hindutva/non hindutva communal forces. It is to the credit of Shri > Karunanidhi that non brahmin upper caste has seen its ascendency to power > and the dalits are still subjucated to sub human existence, notwithsatnding > the periodic tokenism/stray comments by the DMK ideologue.Mr. > Karunanidhi's contribution runs parallel to Balasaheb. Their families have > benefited in economic and plolitical terms and certainly empowered their > future generations for the same, though 'social equality and rationality and > progressive ideas and enlightenment' would remain at the rehtoric level - > the fodder for the survival of them and their likes. > > Incidently the attack on MS.Selvi's (Mr. Karunanidhi's daughter)house in > Bangalore by alleged Ram bakhts and the brutal killing of two passengers in > a Tamilnadu transport owned bus seems to have mirrored the same terror and > fascist culture displayed by DMK sevaks, leading to death of two employee's > of a tamil daily in Madurai.In what was a battle beween cousins percolated > down to socio-political sphere. The question is that whether there could be > a free debate on myths abd beliefs, the more important point missed here is > whether politician's are qualified enough to don the mantle of specialists > without any requisite skills. Fortunately Mr.Karunanidhi is no Romila > Thapar nor Mr. Anbumani Ramdass a Venogopal, who masquerade as reformers and > progressive people, to cater to political compulsions rather than empowering > the marginalised sections. > > Indian politics interestingly still remains the domain of select people, > certain families who could benefit by their priximity to the english rulers, > could lay access to modern tools of knowledge and empowerment. > > So if DMK or Cong talks about empowerment of women and youth that it has > to be through the 'democratic exercise' of installing Kanimozhis' and Rahul > Gandhis' while the like of Mayawati have to negotiate through > various means. > > > > > > > > > >Message: 3 > >Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:48:23 +0530 > > From: "Pawan Durani" > >Subject: [Reader-list] Rama as a kudikaran > >To: reader_list > >Message-ID: > > <6b79f1a70709202218l3387c541r43eec81cd16ea880 at mail.gmail.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > >No words from the elite intellectuals [ VASP ] ....not even a > condemnation > >! > > > > > http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE920070920132940&Headline=Valmiki+said+Ram+was+a+drunkard:+Karunanidhi&Title=Chennai&Topic=0 > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 4 > >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 03:34:29 -0700 (PDT) > > From: we wi > >Subject: [Reader-list] The exclusive description about Sripura or > > Srinagar > >To: reader-list at sarai.net > >Message-ID: <686695.88269.qm at web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >Dear All, > > > > I would like to bring you a delightful description about Srinagar > described long back. > > > > This stotra (hymn which praises) occurs in Brahmanda purana in the > Chapter on discussion between Hayagreeva and Agasthya.Hayagreeva is an > incarnation of Vishnu with the horse head and is believed to be the > storehouse of knowledge. Agasthya is one of the great sages of yore who is > one of the stars of the constellation great bear. At his request Hayagreeva > taught him the most holy 1000 names of Lalitha . > > > > > > Parama shiva is one of the trinity of Hindu pantheons who is in > charge of destruction. He married Sathi , the daughter of Daksha. Daksha > and Paramashiva were not getting on well and consequently he did not invite > Paramashiva for one of the great fire sacrifices that he conducted. However > Sathi went to attend the function in spite of ParamashivaÂ's protest. Daksha > insulted her husband and she jumped in to the fire and ended her life. > Consequently at the behest Of Paramashiva Daksha was killed and later given > life with a goatÂ's head. However this incident upset Paramashiva and he > entered into deep meditation.Sathi took birth as the daughter of the > mountain(Parvathy) Himalayas and started doing penance on Shiva for getting > him as her husband. The devas faced a very great enemy in Sura Padma who had > a boon that he could be killed only by a son of Shiva and Parvathy. So to > wake Shiva from his deep meditation the devas deputed Manmatha , the God of > love who shot his > > flower arrows at Paramashiva. Paramashiva woke up and opened his third > eye and burnt the God of love into ashes. The Devas and Rathi Devi the wife > of Manmatha requested Paramashiva to give life to Manmatha. Heeding for > their request Paramashiva stared at the ashes of Manmatha.From the ashes > came Bhandasura Who made all the world as impotent and ruled from the city > called Shonitha pura.He started troubling the devas.The devas then sought > the advice of Sage Narada who advised them to conduct a fire sacrifice. > From the fire rose Sri Lalitha Tripura Sundari. > > > > > > She was extremely beautiful, She was given in marriage to Lord > Kameshwara and made to stay in Sree Nagara at the top of Maha Meru Mountain. > > > > > > Sree nagara had 25 streets circling it. They are made of iron, > steel, copper, lead, alloy made of five metals, silver, gold, the white > Pushpa raga stone, the red Padmaraga stone. Onyx, diamond, Vaidoorya, Indra > neela (topaz), pearl, Marakatha, coral, nine gems and mixture of gems and > precious stones. In the eighth street was the forest of Kadambas. This is > presided by Syamala. In the fifteenth street live the Ashta Digh > palakas.In the sixteenth lives Varahi alias Dandini who is her commander > in chief. Here Syamala also has a house. In the seventeenth street live the > different Yoginis.In the eighteenth street lives Maha Vishnu.In the > nineteenth street lives Esana, in the twentieth Thara Devi, twenty first > Varuni , the twenty second Kurukulla who presides over the fort of pride, > twenty third Marthanda Bhairawa, twenty fourth the moon and twenty fifth > Manmatha presiding over the forest of love. In the center of Srinagara is > the Maha Padma Vana(The great lotus forest) and > > within it the Chintamani Griha (The house of holy thought),In its > north east is the Chid agni kunda and on both sides of its eastern gate are > the houses of Manthrini and Dhandini.On its four gates stand the > Chaduramnaya gods for watch and ward. And within it is the Sri chakra.Inthe center of Sri Chakra on the throne of Pancha brahmas on the Bindu > Peeta(dot plank) called sarvanandamaya(universal happiness) Sits Maha > Tripura Sundari.In the Sri Chakra are the following decorations viz., The > square called Trilokya mohanam(most beautiful in the three worlds), The > sixteen petalled lotus called Sarvasa paripoorakam(fulfiller of all > desires), the eight petalled lotus called Sarvasamksopanam(the all > cleanser), the sixteen corner figure called Sarva sowbagyam(all luck),the > external ten cornered figure called Sarvartha sadhakam (giver of all > assets), the internal ten cornered figure called Sarva raksha karam(All > protector), the eight cornered figure called Sarva roka > > haram(cure of all diseases), triangle called Sarva siddhi pradam(giver > of all powers) and the dot called Sarvananda mayam(all pleasures). > > > > > > The devas prayed her to kill Bhandasura..When she started for the war > with Bandasura, she was accompanied by the powers called anima, mahima etc, > Brahmi, Kaumari, Vaishnavi, Varahi, Mahendri, Chamundi, Maha Lakshmi, , > Nitya Devaths and Avarna Devathas who occupy the Sri Chakra.WhileSampatkari devi was the captain of the elephant regiment, Aswarooda devi was > the captain of the cavalry.The army was commanded by Dhandini riding on > the Charriot called Giri Chakra assisted by Manthrini riding on the chariot > called Geya Chakra..Jwala malini protected the army by creating a fire ring > around it.ParaShakthi rode in the center on the chariot of Sri > Chakra.Nithya Devi destroyed a large chunk of BandasuraÂ's armies , Bala > Devi killed the son of Bandasura, and Manthrini and Dhandini killed his > brothers called Vishanga and Vishukra.When the Asuras created blockade for > the marching army, Sri Lalitha Tripura sundari created Ganesha with the help > of Kameshwara to remove the blockade.Then > > Bandasura created the asuras called Hiranyaksha, Hiranya Kasipu and > Ravana.The Devi created the ten avatars of Vishnu and destroyed them. She > killed all his army using Pasupathastra and killed him with > Kameshwarasthra.The gods then praised her.She then recreated Manmatha for > the good of the world. This story is contained in the first 84 names of > the first 34 slokas of Lalitha Sahasra nama .and all together contains one > thousand names. This is also called the Rahasya Nama Sahasra(the thousand > secret names).Reading it , meditating on the meaning of the names would lead > to the fulfillment of all the wishes of the devotees. > > > > > > 1 > > Srimatha Mother who gives immeasurable wealth who removes all > sorrows and gives only happiness.-indicates also her role of creation > > 2 > > Sri maharajni > > She who is the empress who takes care of the universe- indicates her > role of protection > > 3 > > Sri math simasaneshwari > > She who sits on the throne of lions-indicates her role of > destruction > > 4 > > Chidagni Kunda Sambootha > > She who rose from the fire of knowledge and is the ultimate truth > > 5 > > Deva karya samudhyatha > > She who is interested in helping devas > > 6 > > Udyath bhanu sahasrabha > > She who glitters like thousand rising suns > > 7 > > Chadur bahu samanvidha > > She who has four arms > > 8 > > Ragha Swaroopa pasadya > > She who has love for all in the form of rope(pasa)-She has this in > one of her left hands > > 9 > > Krodhakarankusojwala > > She who glitters and has anger in the form of Anghusa –in one of > her right hands. > > 10 > > Mano Rupeshu Kodanda > > She who has the bow of sweet cane which is her mind-in one of her > left hands > > 11 > > Pancha than mathra sayaka > > She who has five bows of touch , smell, hearing, taste and sight > > 12 > > Nijaruna prabha poora majjath brahmanda mandala > > She who makes all the universe immerse in her red colour which is > like the sun in the dawn > > 13 > > Champakasoka –punnaga-sowgandhika- lasath kacha > > She who wears in her hair flowers like Champaka, Punnaga and > Sowgandhika > > 14 > > Kuru vinda mani –sreni-kanath kotira manditha > > She whose crown glitters with rows of inlaid precious stones > (Padmaraga stones) > > 15 > > Ashtami chandra vibhraja –dhalika sthala shobhitha > > She who has a beautiful forehead like the half moon (visible on > eighth day from new moon) > > 16 > > Muka chandra kalankabha mriganabhi viseshaka > > She who has the thilaka(dot) of Musk in her forehead which is like > the black shadow in the moon > > 17 > > Vadana smara mangalya griha thorana chillaka > > She who has beautiful eyelids which look like the ornaments to her > face which is like cupids home > > 18 > > Vakthra lakshmi –parivaha-chalan meenabha lochana > > She who has beautiful eyes which look like fish in the pond of her > face > > 19 > > Nava champaka –pushpabha-nasa dhanda virajitha > > She who has nose like freshly opened flowers of Champaka > > 20 > > Thara kanthi thiraskari nasabharana bhasura > > She who has a nose ring which shines more than the star > > 21 > > Kadambha manjari kluptha karna poora manohara > > She who has beautiful ears like the kadamba flowers > > 22 > > Thadanga yugali bhootha thapanodupa mandala > > She who wears the sun and the moon as her ear studs > > 23 > > Padma raga sila darsha paribhavika polabhu > > She who has cheeks which shine more than the mirror made of > Padmaraga > > 24 > > Nava vidhruma bimbha sri nyakkari rathna chhadha > > She whose lips are like beautiful new corals > > 25 > > Shuddha vidyangurakara dwija pangthi dwayojjala > > She who has teeth which look like germinated true > knowledge(Shodasakshari vidya) > > 26 > > Karpoora Veedi Kamodha Samakarsha digandara > > She who chews betel leaf with the spices which give perfume in all > directions > > 27 > > Nija Sallabha Madhurya Vinirbhardista Kacchabhi > > She who has voice sweeter than the notes produced by Sarawathi Devis > Veena(This is called Kachabhi) > > 28 > > Mandasmitha prabha poora majjat Kamesha manasa > > She who has lovely smile which is like the river in which the mind > of cupid plays > > 29 > > Anakalidha Sadrushya Chibuka sri virajitha > > She who has a beautiful chin which has nothing else to compare > > 30 > > Kamesha baddha mangalya sutra shobitha kandhara > > She who shines with the sacred thread in her neck tied by Lord > Kameshwara > > 31 > > Kankangadha Keyura Kamaniya Bujanvidha > > She who wears golden Armlets > > 32 > > Rathna graiveya chinthaka lola muktha phalanvitha > > She who wears necklace with moving pearls and dollar inlaid with > gems > > 33 > > Kameswara prema rathna mani prathi pana sthani > > She who gave her breasts which are like the pot made of > Rathna(precious stones) and has obtained the love of Kameshwara > > 34 > > Nabhyala vala Romali latha phala kucha dwayi > > She who has two breasts that are like fruits borne on the creeper of > tiny hairs raising from her belly. > > 35 > > Lakshya roma latha dharatha samunneya madhyama > > She who is suspected to have a waist because of the creeper like > hairs raising from there > > 36 > > Sthana bhara dalan Madhya patta bhandha valithraya > > She who has three stripes in her belly which looks like having been > created to protect her tiny waist from her heavy breasts > > 37 > > Arunaruna kausumba vasthra bhaswat kati thati > > She who shines in her light reddish silk cloth worn over her tiny > waist > > 38 > > Rathna kinkinika ramya rasana dhama bhooshitha > > She who wears a golden thread below her waist decorated with bells > made of precious stones > > 39 > > Kamesha gnatha sowbhagya mardworu dwayanvitha > > She who has pretty and tender thighs known only to her consort, > Kameshwara > > 40 > > Manikhya mukuta kara janu dwaya virajitha > > She who has knee joints like the crown made of manikya below her > thighs > > 41 > > Indra kopa parikshiptha smarathunabha jangika > > She who has forelegs like the cupids case of arrows followed by the > bee called Indra kopa > > 42 > > Kooda Gulpha > > She who has round ankles > > 43 > > Koorma prashta jayishnu prapadanvidha > > She who has upper feet like the back of the tortoise > > 44 > > Nakadhi dhithi samchanna namajjana thamoguna > > She who removes the darkness in the mind of her devotees by the > sparkle of nails > > 45 > > Pada dwaya Prabha jala parakrutha saroruha > > She who has two feet which are much more beautiful than lotus > flowers > > 46 > > Sinchana mani manjira manditha sri pamambuja > > She who has feet wearing musical anklets filled with gem stones > > 47 > > Marali Mandha Gamana > > She who has the slow gait like the swan > > 48 > > Maha Lavanya Sewadhi > > She who has the store house of supreme beauty > > 49 > > Sarvaruna > > She who has light reddish colour of the dawn in all her aspects > > 50 > > Anavadhyangi > > She who has most beautiful limbs which do not lack any aspect of > beauty > > 51 > > Srvabharana Bhooshita > > She who wears all the ornaments > > 52 > > Shivakameswarangastha > > She who sits on the lap of Kameswara(shiva) > > 53 > > Shiva > > She who is the personification of Shiva > > 54 > > Swadheena Vallabha > > She whose husband obeys her > > 55 > > Summeru Madhya sringastha > > She who lives in the central peak of Mount Meru > > 56 > > Sriman nagara nayika > > She who is the chief of Srinagara(a town) > > 57 > > Chinthamani grihanthastha > > She who lives in the all wish full filling house > > 58 > > Pancha brahmasana sthitha > > She who sits on the five brahmas viz., Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Esana > and Sadashiva > > 59 > > Maha padma davi samstha > > She who lives in the forest of lotus flowers > > 60 > > Kadambha vana vasini > > She who lives in the forest of Kadmbha (Madurai city is also called > Kadambha vana) > > 61 > > Sudha sagara madhyastha > > She who lives in the middle of the sea of nectar > > 62 > > Kamakshi > > She who fulfills desires by her sight > > 63 > > Kamadhayini > > She who gives what is desired > > 64 > > Devarshi Gana-sangatha-stuyamanathma-vaibhava > > She who has all the qualities fit to be worshipped by sages and > devas > > 65 > > Bhandasura vadodyuktha shakthi sena samavitha > > She who is surrounded by army set ready to kill Bandasura > > 66 > > Sampathkari samarooda sindhoora vrija sevitha > > She who is surrounded by Sampathkari (that which gives > wealth) elephant brigade > > 67 > > Aswaroodadishidaswa kodi kodi biravrutha > > She who is surrounded by crores of cavalry of horses > > 68 > > Chakra raja ratha rooda sarvayudha parishkridha > > She who is fully armed and rides in the Srichakra chariot with nine > stories > > 69 > > Geya chakra ratha rooda manthrini pari sevitha > > She who rides in the chariot with seven stories and is served by > manthrini who is the goddess of music > > 70 > > Giri chakra ratharooda dhanda natha puraskrutha > > She who rides in the chariot with five stories and is served by > goddess Varahi otherwise called Dhanda natha > > 71 > > Jwalimalika ksiptha vanhi prakara madhyaka > > She who is in the middle of the fort of fire built by the Goddess > Jwalamalini > > 72 > > Bhanda sainya vadodyuktha shakthi vikrama harshitha > > She who was pleased by the various Shakthis(literally strength but a > goddess) who helped in killing the army of Bhandasura > > 73 > > Nithya parakamatopa nireekshana samutsuka > > She who is interested and happy in observing the valour of Nithya > devathas (literally goddess of every day) > > 74 > > Banda puthra vadodyuktha bala vikrama nandhita > > She who was pleased by the valour of Bala devi(her daughter) in > destroying the sons of Banda > > 75 > > Manthrinyamba virachitha vishangavatha Doshitha > > She who became happy at seeing Goddess Manthrini kill Vishanga(this > ogre (brother of Banda) represents our desires for physical things) > > 76 > > Vishuka prana harana varahi veeerya nandhitha > > She who appreciates the valour of Varahi in killing Vishuka (another > brother of Banda-he is personification of ignorance) > > 77 > > Kameshwara mukaloka kalpitha sri Ganeshwara > > She who created God Ganesh by the mere look of the face of her Lord > , Kameshwara > > 78 > > Mahaganesha nirbhinna vignayanthra praharshitha > > She who became happy at seeing Lord Ganesha destroy the Vigna > Yanthra (contraption meant to delay ) created by Vishuka > > 79 > > Banda surendra nirmuktha sashtra prathyasthra varshani > > She who rained arrows and replied with arrows against Bandasura > > 80 > > Karanguli nakhothpanna narayana dasakrithi > > She who created the ten avatharas of Narayana from the tip of her > nails (when Bandasura send the Sarvasura asthra (arrow), she destroyed it by > creating the ten avatharas of Vishnu) > > 81 > > Maha pasupathasthragni nirdagdhasura sainika > > She who destroyed the army of asuras by the Maha pasupatha arrow. > > 82 > > Kameshwarasthra nirdhagdha sabandasura sunyaka > > She who destroyed Bandasura and his city called sunyaka by the > Kameshwara arrow. > > 83 > > Brhmopendra mahendradhi deva samsthutha vaibhava > > She who is prayed by Lord Brahma , Vishnu, indra and other devas > > 84 > > Hara nethragni sandhagdha kama sanjeevanoushadhi > > She who brought back to life the God of love Manmatha who was burnt > to ashes by the fire from the eyes of Shiva > > 85 > > Sri vagbhave koodaiga swaroopa mukha pankaja > > She whose lotus face is Vagnhava Koota > > 86 > > Kantatha kadi paryantha Madhya koodaiga swaroopini > > She whose portion from neck to hips is Madya koota > > 87 > > Sakthi koodaiga thapanna Kadyatho bhaga dharini > > She whose portion below hips is the Shakthi koota > > 88 > > Moola manthrathmikha > > She who is the meaning of Moola manthra (root manthra) or She who is > the cause > > 89 > > Moola kooda thraya kalebhara > > She whose body is the three parts of the basic manthra i.e. pancha > dasakshari manthra > > 90 > > Kulamruthaika rasika > > She who enjoys the ecstatic state of oneness of one who sees, sight > and what is seen or She who gets pleasure in drinking the nectar flowing > from the thousand petalled lotus below the brain. > > 91 > > Kula sanketha palini > > She who protects the powerful truths from falling into unsuitable > people > > 92 > > Kulangana > > She who is a lady belonging to cultured family or She who is like > Srividya known only to one whom it belongs > > 93 > > Kulanthastha > > She who is fit to be worshipped any where > > 94 > > Kaulini > > She who is the unification of the principles of Shiva and Shakthi > > 95 > > Kula yogini > > She who is related to the family or She who is related to the > ultimate knowledge > > 96 > > Akula > > She who is beyond kula or She who is beyond any knowledge > > 97 > > Samayanthastha > > She who is within the mental worship of Shiva and Shakthi > > 98 > > Samayachara that para > > She who likes Samayachara i.e. worship stepwise from mooladhara > Chakra > > 99 > > Moladharaika nilaya > > She who exists in Mooladhara In Mooladhara which is in the form of > four petalled lotus the kundalini sleeps. > > 100 > > Brhama Grandhi Vibhedini > > She who breaks the tie in Brahma grandhi i.e she who helps us to > cross the ties due to our birth. > > 101 > > Mani poorantharudhitha > > She who exists in Mani pooraka chakra full dressed in her fineries > > 102 > > Vishnu grandhi vibedhini > > She who breaks the ties of Vishnu grandhi i.e she who helps us cross > the ties due to our position. > > 103 > > Agna chakarantharalastha > > She who lives in between two eye lids in the form of she who orders > > 104 > > Rudra grandhi vibhedini > > She who breaks the ties of Rudra grandhi i.e she who helps us cross > the ties due to our violent thoughts and nature > > 105 > > Sahararambhujarooda > > She who has climbed sahasrara the thousand petalled lotus which is > the point of ultimate awakening > > 106 > > Sudha sarabhi varshini > > She who makes nectar flow in all our nerves from sahasrara i.e. she > who gives the very pleasant experience of the ultimate > > 107 > > Thadillatha samaruchya > > She who shines like the streak of lightning > > 108 > > Shad chakropari samshitha > > She who is on the top of six wheels starting from mooladhara > > 109 > > Maha ssakthya > > She who likes worship by her devotees > > 110 > > Kundalini > > She who is in the form of Kundalini ( a form which is a snake > hissing and exists in mooladhara) > > 111 > > Bisa thanthu thaniyasi > > She who is as thin as the thread from lotus > > 112 > > Bhavani > > She who gives life to the routine life of human beings or She who is > the consort of Lord Shiva > > 113 > > Bhavana gamya > > She who can be attained by thinking > > 114 > > Bhavarany kudariga > > She who is like the axe used to cut the miserable life of the world > > 115 > > Bhadra priya > > She who is interested in doing good to her devotees > > 116 > > Bhadra moorthy > > She who is personification of all that is good > > 117 > > Bhaktha sowbhagya dhayini > > She who gives all good and luck to her devotees > > 118 > > Bhakthi priya > > She who likes devotion to her > > 119 > > Bhakthi gamya > > She who can be reached by devotion > > 120 > > Bhakthi vasya > > She who can be controlled by devotion > > 121 > > Bhayapaha > > She who removes fear > > 122 > > Sambhavya > > She who is married to Shambhu > > 123 > > Saradharadya > > She who is to be worshipped during Navarathri celebrated during > autumn > > 124 > > Sarvani > > She who is the consort of Lord Shiva in the form of Sarvar > > 125 > > Sarmadhayini > > She who gives pleasures > > 126 > > Sankari > > She who is the consort of Sankara > > 127 > > Sreekari > > She who gives all forms of wealth and happiness > > 128 > > Sadhwi > > She who is eternally devoted to her husband > > 129 > > Sarat chandra nibhanana > > She who has the face like moon in the autumn > > 130 > > Satho dhari > > She who has a thin belly > > 131 > > Santhimathi > > She who is peace personified > > 132 > > Niradhara > > She who does not need any support to herself > > 133 > > Niranjana > > She who is devoid of any blemishes or scars > > 134 > > Nirlepa > > She who does not have any attachment > > 135 > > Nirmala > > She who is personification of clarity or She who is devoid of any > dirt > > 136 > > Nithya > > She who is permanently stable > > 137 > > Nirakara > > She who does not have any shape > > 138 > > Nirakula > > She who cannot be attained by confused people > > 139 > > Nirguna > > She who is beyond any characteristics > > 140 > > Nishkala > > She who is not divided > > 141 > > Santha > > She who is peace > > 142 > > Nishkama > > She who does not have any desires > > 143 > > Niruppallava > > She who is never destroyed > > 144 > > Nithya muktha > > She who is forever free of the ties of the world > > 145 > > Nirvikara > > She never undergoes alteration > > 146 > > Nishprapancha > > She who is beyond this world > > 147 > > Nirasraya > > She who does not need support > > 148 > > Nithya shuddha > > She who is forever clean > > 149 > > Nithya bhuddha > > She who is for ever knowledge > > 150 > > Niravadhya > > She who can never be accused > > 151 > > Niranthara > > She who is forever continuous > > 152 > > Nishkarana > > She who does not have cause > > 153 > > Nishkalanka > > She who does not have blemishes > > 154 > > Nirupadhi > > She who does not have basis > > 155 > > Nireeswara > > She who does not have any one controlling her > > 156 > > Neeraga > > She who does not have any desires > > 157 > > Ragha madhani > > She who removes desires from us > > 158 > > Nirmadha > > She who does not have any firm beliefs > > 159 > > Madhanasini > > She who destroys beliefs > > 160 > > Nischintha > > She who is not worried > > 161 > > Nirahankara > > She who does not have an ego > > 162 > > Nirmoha > > She who does not have any passion > > 163 > > Mohanasini > > She who destroys passion > > 164 > > Nirmama > > She who does not have selfish feelings > > 165 > > Mamatha hanthri > > She who destroys selfishness > > 166 > > Nishpapa > > She who does not have any sin > > 167 > > Papa nashini > > She who destroys sin > > 168 > > Nishkrodha > > She who is devoid of anger > > 169 > > Krodha –samani > > She who destroys anger > > 170 > > Nir Lobha > > She who is not miserly > > 171 > > Lobha nasini > > She who removes miserliness > > 172 > > Nissamsaya > > She who does not have any doubts > > 173 > > Samsayagni > > She who clears doubts > > 174 > > Nirbhava > > She who does not have another birth > > 175 > > Bhava nasini > > She who helps us not have another birth > > 176 > > Nirvikalpa > > She who does not do anything she does not desire > > 177 > > Nirabhadha > > She who is not affected by anything > > 178 > > Nirbhedha > > She who does not have any difference > > 179 > > Bhedha nasini > > She who promotes oneness > > 180 > > Nirnasa > > She who does not die > > 181 > > Mrityu madhani > > She who removes fear of death > > 182 > > Nishkriya > > She who does not have any work > > 183 > > Nishparigraha > > She who does not accept help from others > > 184 > > Nisthula > > She who does not have anything to be compared to > > 185 > > Neela chikura > > She who has dark black hair > > 186 > > Nirapaya > > She who is never destroyed > > 187 > > Nirathyaya > > She who does not cross limits of rules she herself created > > 188 > > Dhurlabha > > She who is difficult to obtain > > 189 > > Dhurgama > > She who can not be neared easily > > 190 > > Dhurga > > She who is Dhurga who is a nine year old girl > > 191 > > Dhuka hanthri > > She who removes sorrows > > 192 > > Sukha prada > > She who gives pleasures and happiness > > 193 > > Dushta doora > > She who keeps far away from evil men > > 194 > > Durachara samani > > She who destroys evil practices > > 195 > > Dosha varjitha > > She who does not have anything bad > > 196 > > Sarvangna > > She who knows everything > > 197 > > Saandra karuna > > She who is full of mercy > > 198 > > Samanadhika varjitha > > She who is incomparable > > 199 > > Sarva shakthi mayi > > She who has personification of all strengths > > 200 > > Sarva mangala > > She who is personification of all that is good > > 201 > > Sad gathi prada > > She who gives us good path > > 202 > > Sarveshwari > > She who is goddess of all > > 203 > > Sarva mayi > > She who is everywhere > > 204 > > Sarva manthra swaroopini > > She who is personification of all manthras > > 205 > > Sarva yanthrathmika > > She who is represented by all yantras(Talisman) > > 206 > > Sarva thanthra roopa > > She who is also goddess of all Thanthras which is a method of > worship > > 207 > > Manonmani > > She who is the result of mental thoughts of thoughts and actions > > 208 > > Maaheswari > > She who is the consort of Maheswara (Lord of everything) > > 209 > > Mahaa devi > > She who is the consort of Mahe Deva(God of all gods) > > 210 > > Maha lakshmi > > She who takes the form of Mahalaksmi, the goddess of wealth > > 211 > > Mrida priya > > She who is dear to Mrida (a name of Lord Shiva) > > 212 > > Maha roopa > > She who is very big > > 213 > > Maha poojya > > She who is fit to be worshipped by great people > > 214 > > Maha pathaka nasini > > She who destroys the major misdemeanors > > 215 > > Maha maya > > She who is the great illusion > > 216 > > Maha sathva > > She who is greatly knowledgeable > > 217 > > Maha sakthi > > She who is very strong > > 218 > > Maha rathi > > She who gives great happiness > > 219 > > Maha bhoga > > She who enjoys great pleasures > > 220 > > Mahaiswarya > > She who has great wealth > > 221 > > Maha veerya > > She who has great valour > > 222 > > Maha bala > > She who is very strong > > 223 > > Maha bhudhi > > She who is very intelligent > > 224 > > Maha sidhi > > She who has great super natural powers > > 225 > > Maha yogeswareswari > > She who is goddess of great yogis > > 226 > > Mahathanthra > > She who has the greatest Thantra sasthras > > 227 > > Mahamanthra > > She who has the greatest manthras > > 228 > > Mahayanthra > > She who has the greatest yanthras > > 229 > > Mahasana > > She who has the greatest seat > > 230 > > Maha yaga kramaradhya > > She who should be worshipped by performing great sacrifices( Bhavana > yaga and Chidagni Kunda yaga) > > 231 > > Maha bhairava poojitha > > She who is being worshipped by the great Bhairava > > 232 > > Maheswara Mahakalpa Maha thandava sakshini > > She who will be the witness to the great dance to be performed by > the great lord at the end of the worlds > > 233 > > Maha kamesha mahishi > > She who is the prime consort of the great Kameshwara > > 234 > > Maha tripura sundari > > She who is the beauty of the three great cities > > 235 > > Chatustatyupacharadya > > She who should be worshipped with sixty four offerings > > 236 > > Chathu sashti kala mayi > > She who has sixty four sections > > 237 > > Maha Chathusashti kodi yogini gana sevitha > > She who is being worshipped by the sixty four crore yoginis in the > nine different charkas > > 238 > > Manu Vidya > > She who is personification of Sri Vidya as expounded by Manu > > 239 > > Chandra Vidya > > She who is personification of Sri Vidya as expounded by Moon > > 240 > > Chandra mandala Madhyaga > > She who is in the center of the universe around the moon > > 241 > > Charu Roopa > > She who is very beautiful > > 242 > > Charu Hasa > > She who has a beautiful smile > > 243 > > Charu Chandra Kaladhara > > She who wears the beautiful crescent > > 244 > > Charachara Jagannatha > > She who is the Lord of all moving and immobile things > > 245 > > Chakra Raja Nikethana > > She who lives in the middle of Sree Chakra > > 246 > > Parvathi > > She who is the daughter of the mountain > > 247 > > Padma nayana > > She who has eyes like the lotus > > 248 > > Padma raga samaprabha > > She who shines as much as the Padma Raga jewel > > 249 > > Pancha prethasana seena > > She who sits on the seat of five dead bodies ( these are Brahma , > Vishnu, Rudra, Eesa and Sadasiva without their Shakthi(consort)) > > 250 > > Pancha brahma swaroopini > > She who is personification of five brahmas ( they are the gods > mentioned in the last name with their Shakthi) > > 251 > > Chinmayi > > She who is the personification action in every thing > > 252 > > Paramananda > > She who is supremely happy > > 253 > > Vignana Gana Roopini > > She who is the personification of knowledge based on science > > 254 > > Dhyana Dhyathru dhyeya roopa > > She who is personification of meditation, the being who meditates > and what is being meditated upon > > 255 > > Dharmadhrama vivarjitha > > She who is beyond Dharma (justice) and Adharma(injustice) > > 256 > > Viswa roopa > > She who has the form of the universe > > 257 > > Jagarini > > She who is always awake > > 258 > > Swapanthi > > She who is always in the state of dream > > 259 > > Thaijasathmika > > She who is the form of Thaijasa which is microbial concept > > 260 > > Suptha > > She who is in deep sleep > > 261 > > Prangnathmika > > She who is awake > > 262 > > Thurya > > She who is in trance > > 263 > > Sarvavastha vivarjitha > > She who is above all states > > 264 > > Srishti karthri > > She who creates > > 265 > > Brahma roopa > > She who is the personification of ultimate > > 266 > > Gopthri > > She who saves > > 267 > > Govinda roopini > > She who is of the form of Govinda > > 268 > > Samharini > > She who destroys > > 269 > > Rudhra roopa > > She who is of the form of Rudhra > > 270 > > Thirodhana kari > > She who hides herself from us > > 271 > > Eeswari > > She who is of the form of easwara > > 272 > > Sadashivaa > > She who is of the form of Sadashiva > > 273 > > Anugrahada > > She who blesses > > 274 > > Pancha krithya parayana > > She who is engaged in the five duties of creation, existence, > dissolving, disappearing, and blessing > > 275 > > Bhanu mandala madhyastha > > She who is in the middle of the sunÂ's universe > > 276 > > Bhairavi > > She who is the consort of Bhairava > > 277 > > Bhaga malini > > She who is the goddess bhaga malini > > 278 > > Padmasana > > She who sits on a lotus > > 279 > > Bhagavathi > > She who is with all wealth and knowledge > > 280 > > Padmanabha sahodari > > She who is the sister of Vishnu > > 281 > > Unmesha nimishotpanna vipanna bhuvanavali > > She who creates and destroys the universe by opening and closing of > her eye lids > > 282 > > Sahasra seersha vadana > > She who has thousands of faces and heads > > 283 > > Saharakshi > > She who has thousands of eyes > > 284 > > Sahasra path > > She who has thousands of feet > > 285 > > Aabrahma keeda janani > > She has created all beings from worm to Lord Brahma > > 286 > > Varnashrama vidhayini > > She who created the four fold division of society > > 287 > > Nijangna roopa nigama > > She who gave orders which are based on Vedas > > 288 > > Punyapunya phala pradha > > She who gives compensation for sins and good deeds > > 289 > > Sruthi seemantha kula sindhoori kritha padabjha dhooliga > > She whose dust from her lotus feet is the sindhoora fills up in the > parting of the hair of the Vedic mother > > 290 > > Sakalagama sandoha shukthi samputa maukthika > > She who is like the pearl in the pearl holding shell of Vedas > > 291 > > Purashartha pradha > > She who gives us the purusharthas of Charity, assets, joy and moksha > > 292 > > Poorna > > She who is complete > > 293 > > Bhogini > > She who enjoys pleasures > > 294 > > Bhuvaneshwari > > She who is the Goddess presiding over the universe > > 295 > > Ambika > > She who is the mother of the world > > 296 > > Anadhi nidhana > > She who does not have either end or beginning > > 297 > > Hari brahmendra sevitha > > She who is served by Gods like Vishnu,Indra and Brahma > > 298 > > Naarayani > > She who is like Narayana > > 299 > > Naada roopa > > She who is the shape of music (sound) > > 300 > > Nama roopa vivarjitha > > She who does not have either name or shape > > 301 > > Hrim kari > > She who makes the holy sound Hrim > > 302 > > Harimathi > > She who is shy > > 303 > > Hrudya > > She who is in the heart (devotees) > > 304 > > Heyopadeya varjitha > > She who does not have aspects which can be accepted or rejected > > 305 > > Raja rajarchitha > > She who is being worshipped by king of kings > > 306 > > Rakhini > > She who is the queen of Kameshwara > > 307 > > Ramya > > She who makes others happy > > 308 > > Rajeeva lochana > > She who is lotus eyed > > 309 > > Ranjani > > She who by her red colour makes Shiva also red > > 310 > > Ramani > > She who plays with her devotees > > 311 > > Rasya > > She who feeds the juice of everything > > 312 > > Ranath kinkini mekhala > > She who wears the golden waist band with tinkling bells > > 313 > > Ramaa > > She who is like Lakshmi > > 314 > > Raakendu vadana > > She who has a face like the full moon > > 315 > > Rathi roopa > > She who attracts others with her features like Rathi (wife of God of > love-Manmatha) > > 316 > > Rathi priya > > She who likes Rathi > > 317 > > Rakshaa kari > > She who protects > > 318 > > Rakshasagni > > She who kills Rakshasas-ogres opposed to the heaven > > 319 > > Raamaa > > She who is feminine > > 320 > > Ramana lampata > > She who is interested in making love to her lord > > 321 > > Kaamya > > She who is of the form of love > > 322 > > Kamakala roopa > > She who is the personification of the art of love > > 323 > > Kadambha kusuma priya > > She who likes the flowers of Kadamba > > 324 > > Kalyani > > She who does good > > 325 > > Jagathi kandha > > She who is like a root to the world > > 326 > > Karuna rasa sagara > > She who is the sea of the juice of mercy > > 327 > > Kalavathi > > She who is an artist or she who has crescents > > 328 > > Kalaalapa > > She whose talk is artful > > 329 > > Kaantha > > She who glitters > > 330 > > Kadambari priya > > She who likes the wine called Kadambari or She who likes long > stories > > 331 > > Varadha > > She who gives boons > > 332 > > Vama nayana > > She who has beautiful eyes > > 333 > > Vaaruni madha vihwala > > She who gets drunk with the wine called varuni(The wine of > happiness) > > 334 > > Viswadhika > > She who is above all universe > > 335 > > Veda vedya > > She who can be understood by Vedas > > 336 > > Vindhyachala nivasini > > She who lives on Vindhya mountains > > 337 > > Vidhatri > > She who carries the world > > 338 > > Veda janani > > She who created the Vedas > > 339 > > Vishnu maya > > She who lives as the Vishnu maya > > 340 > > Vilasini > > She who enjoys love making > > 341 > > Kshetra swaroopa > > She who is personification of the Kshetra or body > > 342 > > Kshetresi > > She who is goddess of bodies > > 343 > > Kshethra kshethragna palini > > She who looks after bodies and their lord > > 344 > > Kshaya vridhi nirmuktha > > She who neither decreases or increases > > 345 > > Kshetra pala samarchitha > > She who is worshipped by those who look after bodies > > 346 > > Vijaya > > She who is always victorious > > 347 > > Vimala > > She who is clean of ignorance and illusion > > 348 > > Vandhya > > She who is being worshipped by every body > > 349 > > Vandharu jana vatsala > > She who has affection towards all those who worship her > > 350 > > Vaag vadhini > > She who uses words with great effect in arguments > > 351 > > Vama kesi > > She who has beautiful hair > > 352 > > Vahni mandala vaasini > > She who lives in the universe of fire which is Mooladhara > > 353 > > Bhakthi mat kalpa lathika > > She who is the wish giving creeper Kalpaga > > 354 > > Pasu pasa vimochani > > She who removes shackles from the living > > 355 > > Samhrutha sesha pashanda > > She who destroys those people who have left their faith > > 356 > > Sadachara pravarthika > > She who makes things happen through good conduct > > 357 > > Thapatryagni santhaptha samahladahna chandrika > > She who is like the pleasure giving moon to those who suffer from > the three types of pain > > 358 > > Tharuni > > She who is ever young > > 359 > > Thapasa aradhya > > She who is being worshipped by sages > > 360 > > Thanu Madhya > > She who has a narrow middle (hip) > > 361 > > Thamopaha > > She who destroys darkness > > 362 > > Chithi > > She who is personification of wisdom > > 363 > > Thatpada lakshyartha > > She who is the indicative meaning of the word Â"thathÂ" which is the > first word of vedic saying Â"that thou artÂ" > > 364 > > Chidekara swaroopini > > She who is wisdom through out > > 365 > > Swathmananda lavi bhootha brahmadyanantha santhathi > > She who in her ocean of wisdom makes Wisdom about Brahmam look like > a wave > > 366 > > Paraa > > She who is the outside meaning of every thing > > 367 > > Prathyak chidi roopa > > She who makes us look for wisdom inside > > 368 > > Pasyanthi > > She who sees everything within herself > > 369 > > Para devatha > > She who gives power to all gods > > 370 > > Madhyama > > She who is in the middle of everything > > 371 > > Vaikhari roopa > > She who is of the form with words > > 372 > > Bhaktha manasa hamsikha > > She who is like a swan in the lake called mind > > 373 > > Kameshwara prana nadi > > She who is the life source of Kameswara > > 374 > > Kruthagna > > She who watches all actions of every one or She who knows all > > 375 > > Kama poojitha > > She who is being worshipped by the god of love in the kama giri > peeta of Mooladhara chakra-Kama > > 376 > > Srungara rasa sampoorna > > She who is lovely > > 377 > > Jayaa > > She who is personification of victory > > 378 > > Jalandhara sthitha > > She who is on Jalandhara peetha or She who is purest of the pure > > 379 > > Odyana peeda nilaya > > She who is on Odyana peetha or She who lives in orders > > 380 > > Bindu mandala vaasini > > She who lives in the dot in the center of Srichakra > > 381 > > Raho yoga kramaradhya > > She who can be worshipped by secret sacrificial rites > > 382 > > Rahas tarpana tarpitha > > She who is pleased of chants knowing its meaning > > 383 > > Sadya prasadini > > She who is pleased immediately > > 384 > > Viswa sakshini > > She who is the witness for the universe > > 385 > > Sakshi varjitha > > She who does not have witness for herself > > 386 > > Shadanga devatha yuktha > > She who has her six parts as gods viz., heart, head, hair. Battle > dress, eyes and arrows > > 387 > > Shadgunya paripooritha > > She who is full of six characteristics viz., wealth, duty, fame, > knowledge, assets and renunciation > > 388 > > Nithya klinna > > She in whose heart there is always mercy > > 389 > > Nirupama > > She who does not have anything to be compared to > > 390 > > Nirvanasukha dayini > > She who gives redemption > > 391 > > Nithya shodasika roopa > > She who is of the form sixteen goddesses > > 392 > > Sri kandartha sareerini > > She who occupies half the body of Lord Shiva > > 393 > > Prabhavathi > > She who is lustrous of supernatural powers > > 394 > > Prabha roopa > > She who is personification of the light provided by super natural > powers > > 395 > > Prasiddha > > She who is famous > > 396 > > Parameshwari > > She who is the ultimate goddess > > 397 > > Moola prakrithi > > She who is the root cause > > 398 > > Avyaktha > > She who is not clearly seen > > 399 > > Vyktha Avyaktha swaroopini > > She who is visible and not visible > > 400 > > Vyapini > > She who is spread everywhere > > 401 > > Vividhakara > > She who has several different forms > > 402 > > Vidhya avidhya swaroopini > > She who is the form of knowledge as well as ignorance > > 403 > > Maha kamesha nayana kumudahladha kaumudhi > > She who is like the full moon which opens the lotus like eyes of > Lord Kameshwara > > 404 > > Bhaktha hardha thamo bedha bhanu mat bhanu santhathi > > She who is like the sunÂ's rays which remove the darkness from the > heart of devotees > > 405 > > Shivadhoothi > > She who sent Shiva as her representative > > 406 > > Shivaradhya > > She who is worshipped by Lord Shiva > > 407 > > Shiva moorthi > > She who is of the form of Lord Shiva > > 408 > > Shivangari > > She who makes good to happen > > 409 > > Shiva priya > > She who is dear to Lord Shiva > > 410 > > Shivapara > > She who does not have any other interest except Lord Shiva > > 411 > > Shishteshta > > She who likes people with good habits > > 412 > > Shishta poojitha > > She who is being worshipped by good people > > 413 > > Aprameya > > She who cannot be measured > > 414 > > Swaprakasha > > She who has her own luster > > 415 > > Mano vachama gochara > > She who is beyond the mind and the word > > 416 > > Chitsakthi > > She who is the strength of holy knowledge > > 417 > > Chethana roopa > > She who is the personification of the power behind action > > 418 > > Jada shakthi > > She who is the strength of the immobile > > 419 > > Jadathmikha > > She who is the world of immobile > > 420 > > Gayathri > > She who is Gayathri > > 421 > > Vyahruthi > > She who is the grammar originating from letters > > 422 > > Sandhya > > She who is the union of souls and the God > > 423 > > Dwija brinda nishewitha > > She who is being worshipped by all beings > > 424 > > Tatwasana > > She who sits on principles > > 425 > > Tat > > She who is that > > 426 > > Twam > > She who is you > > 427 > > Ayee > > She who is the mother > > 428 > > Pancha kosandara sthitha > > She who is in between the five holy parts > > 429 > > Nissema mahima > > She who has limitless fame > > 430 > > Nithya youawana > > She who is ever young > > 431 > > Madha shalini > > She who shines by her exuberance > > 432 > > Madha goornitha rakthakshi > > She who has rotating red eyes due to her exuberance > > 433 > > Madha patala khandaboo > > She who has red cheeks due to excessive action > > 434 > > Chandana drava dhigdhangi > > She who applies sandal paste all over her body > > 435 > > Champeya kusuma priya > > She who likes the flowers of Champaka tree > > 436 > > Kusala > > She who is intelligent > > 437 > > Komalakara > > She who has soft beautiful form > > 438 > > Kuru kulla > > She who is of the form of Kuru kulla devi who lives in Vimarsa > > 439 > > Kuleshwari > > She who is the goddess for the clan > > 440 > > Kula kundalaya > > She who lives in kula kunda or She who is the power called Kundalani > > 441 > > Kaula marga that para sevitha > > She who is being worshipped by people who follow Kaula matha > > 442 > > Kumara gana nadambha > > She who is mother to Ganesha and Subrahmanya > > 443 > > Thushti > > She who is personification of happiness > > 444 > > Pushti > > She who is personification of health > > 445 > > Mathi > > She who is personification of wisdom > > 446 > > Dhrithi > > She who is personification of courage > > 447 > > Santhi > > She who is peaceful > > 448 > > Swasthimathi > > She who always keeps well > > 449 > > Kanthi > > She who is personification of light > > 450 > > Nandhini > > She who is personification of Nadhini daughter of Kama denu > > 451 > > Vigna nasini > > She who removes obstacles > > 452 > > Tejowathi > > She who shines > > 453 > > Trinayana > > She who has three eyes > > 454 > > Lolakshi-Kamaroopini > > She who has wandering passionate eyes > > 455 > > Malini > > She who wears a garland > > 456 > > Hamsini > > She who is surrounded by swans > > 457 > > Matha > > She who is the mother > > 458 > > Malayachala vasini > > She who lives in the Malaya mountain > > 459 > > Sumukhi > > She who has a pleasing disposition > > 460 > > Nalini > > She who is tender > > 461 > > Subru > > She who has beautiful eyelids > > 462 > > Shobhana > > She who brings good things > > 463 > > Sura Nayika > > She who is the leader of devas > > 464 > > Kala kanti > > She who is the consort of he who killed the god of death > > 465 > > Kanthi mathi > > She who has ethereal luster > > 466 > > Kshobhini > > She who creates high emotions or She who gets agitated > > 467 > > Sukshma roopini > > She who has a micro stature > > 468 > > Vajreshwari > > She who is Vajreswari (lord of diamonds) who occupies jalandhara > peetha > > 469 > > Vamadevi > > She who is the consort of Vama deva > > 470 > > Vayovastha vivarjitha > > She who does not change with age > > 471 > > Sidheswari > > She who is the goddess of Siddhas (saints with super natural powers) > > 472 > > Sidha vidya > > She who is personification of pancha dasa manthra which is called > siddha vidya > > 473 > > Sidha matha > > She who is the mother of Siddhas > > 474 > > Yasawini > > She who is famous > > 475 > > Vishudhichakra Nilaya > > She who is in sixteen petalled lotus > > 476 > > Aarakthavarni > > She who is slightly red > > 477 > > Trilochana > > She who has three eyes > > 478 > > Khadwangadhi prakarana > > She who has arms like the sword > > 479 > > Vadanaika samavidha > > She who has one face > > 480 > > Payasanna priya > > She who likes sweet rice (Payasam) > > 481 > > Twakstha > > She who lives in the sensibility of the skin > > 482 > > Pasu loka Bhayamkari > > She who creates fear for animal like men > > 483 > > Amruthathi maha sakthi samvrutha > > She who is surrounded by Maha shakthis like Amrutha,Karshini, > Indrani, Eesani, uma,Urdwa kesi > > 484 > > Dakineeswari > > She who is goddess of the south(denoting death) > > 485 > > Anahathabja nilaya > > She who lives in the twelve petalled lotus > > 486 > > Syamabha > > She who is greenish black > > 487 > > Vadanadwaya > > She who has two faces > > 488 > > Dhamshtrojwala > > She who shines with long protruding teeth > > 489 > > Aksha maladhi dhara > > She who wears meditation chains > > 490 > > Rudhira samsthida > > She who is in blood > > 491 > > Kala rathryadhi Shakthi youga vrudha > > She who is surrounded by Shakthis like Kalarathri. Kanditha, > Gayathri,  .etc > > 492 > > Sniggdowdhana priya > > She who likes Ghee mixed rice > > 493 > > Maha veerendra varadha > > She who gives boons to great heroes or She who gives boons to great > sages > > 494 > > Rakinyambha swaroopini > > She who has names like rakini > > 495 > > Mani poorabja nilaya > > She who lives in ten petalled lotus > > 496 > > Vadana thraya samyudha > > She who has three faces > > 497 > > Vajradhikayudhopetha > > She who has weapons like Vajrayudha > > 498 > > Damaryadhibhi ravrutha > > She who is surrounded by Goddess like Damari > > 499 > > Raktha varna > > She who is of the colour of blood > > 500 > > Mamsa nishta > > She who is in flesh > > 501 > > Gudanna preetha manasa > > She who likes rice mixed with jaggery > > 502 > > Samastha bhaktha sukhadha > > She who gives pleasure to all her devotees > > 503 > > Lakinyambha swaroopini > > She who is famous in the name of Â"LakiniÂ" > > 504 > > Swadhishtanambujagatha > > She who lives in the six petalled lotus > > 505 > > Chathur vakthra manohara > > She who has four beautiful faces > > 506 > > Sulayudha sampanna > > She who has weapons like Spear > > 507 > > Peetha varna > > She who is of golden colour > > 508 > > Adhi garvitha > > She who is very proud > > 509 > > Medho nishta > > She who is in the fatty layer > > 510 > > Madhu preetha > > She who likes honey > > 511 > > Bhandinyadhi samanvidha > > She who is surrounded by Shakthis called Bandhini > > 512 > > Dhadyanna saktha hridhaya > > She who likes curd rice > > 513 > > Kakini roopa dharini > > She who resembles Â"KakiniÂ" > > 514 > > Mooladrambujarooda > > She who sits on the mooladhara kamala or the lotus which is the > basic support > > 515 > > Pancha vakthra > > She who has five faces > > 516 > > Sthithi samsthitha > > She who is in the bones > > 517 > > Ankusathi praharana > > She who holds Ankusha and other weapons > > 518 > > Varadadhi nishevitha > > She who is surrounded by Vardha and other shakthis > > 519 > > Mudgou danasaktha chittha > > She who likes rice mixed with green gram dhal > > 520 > > Sakinyambha swaroopini > > She who has the name Â"SakiniÂ" > > 521 > > Agna chakrabja nilaya > > She who sits on the lotus called Agna chakra or the wheel of order > > 522 > > Shukla varna > > She who is white coloured > > 523 > > Shadanana > > She who has six faces > > 524 > > Majja samstha > > She who is in the fat surrounding the body > > 525 > > Hamsavathi mukhya shakthi samanvitha > > She who is surrounded by shakthis called Hamsavathi > > 526 > > Hardrannaika rasika > > She who likes rice mixed with turmeric powder > > 527 > > Hakini roopa dharini > > She who has the name Â"HakiniÂ" > > 528 > > Sahasra dhala padhmastha > > She who sits on thousand petalled lotus > > 529 > > Sarva varnopi shobitha > > She who shines in all colours > > 530 > > Sarvayudha dhara > > She who is armed with all weapons > > 531 > > Shukla samsthitha > > She who is in shukla or semen > > 532 > > Sarvathomukhi > > She who has faces everywhere > > 533 > > Sarvou dhana preetha chittha > > She who likes all types of rice > > 534 > > Yakinyambha swaroopini > > She who is named as Â"yakiniÂ" > > 535 > > Swaha > > She who is personification of Swaha ( the manthra chanted during > fire sacrifice ) > > 536 > > Swadha > > She who is of the form of Swadha > > 537 > > Amathi > > She who is ignorance > > 538 > > Medha > > She who is knowledge > > 539 > > Sruthi > > She who is Vedas > > 540 > > Smrithi > > She who is the guide to Vedas > > 541 > > Anuthama > > She who is above all > > 542 > > Punya keerthi > > She who is famous for good deeds > > 543 > > Punya labhya > > She who can be attained by good deeds > > 544 > > Punya sravana keerthana > > She who gives good for those who listen and those who sing about her > > 545 > > Pulomajarchidha > > She who is worshipped by wife of Indra > > 546 > > Bandha mochini > > She who releases us from bondage > > 547 > > Barbharalaka > > She who has forelocks which resembles waves > > 548 > > Vimarsa roopini > > She who is hidden from view > > 549 > > Vidhya > > She who is Â"learningÂ" > > 550 > > Viyadhadhi jagat prasu > > She who created the earth and the sky > > 551 > > Sarva vyadhi prasamani > > She who cures all diseases > > 552 > > Sarva mrutyu nivarini > > She who avoids all types of death > > 553 > > Agra ganya > > She who is at the top > > 554 > > Achintya roopa > > She who is beyond thought > > 555 > > Kali kalmasha nasini > > She who removes the ills of the dark age > > 556 > > Kathyayini > > She who is Kathyayini in Odyana peetha or She who is the daughter of > sage Kathyayana > > 557 > > Kala hanthri > > She who kills god of death > > 558 > > Kamalaksha nishevitha > > She who is being worshipped by the lotus eyed Vishnu > > 559 > > Thamboola pooritha mukhi > > She whose mouth is filled with betel leaves , betel nut and lime > > 560 > > Dhadimi kusuma prabha > > She whose colour is like the pomegranate bud > > 561 > > Mrgakshi > > She who has eyes like deer > > 562 > > Mohini > > She who bewitches > > 563 > > Mukhya > > She who is the chief > > 564 > > Mridani > > She who gives pleasure > > 565 > > Mithra roopini > > She who is of the form of Sun > > 566 > > Nithya Truptha > > She who is satisfied always > > 567 > > Bhaktha Nidhi > > She who is the treasure house of devotees > > 568 > > Niyanthri > > She who controls > > 569 > > Nikhileswari > > She who is goddess for every thing > > 570 > > Maitryadhi vasana Labhya > > She who can be attained by habits like Maithree (friendship) > > 571 > > Maha pralaya sakshini > > She who is the witness to the great deluge > > 572 > > Para Shakthi > > She who is the end strength > > 573 > > Para Nishta > > She who is at the end of concentration > > 574 > > Prgnana Gana roopini > > She who is personification of all superior knowledge > > 575 > > Madhvi pana lasaa > > She who is not interested in anything else due to drinking of toddy > > 576 > > Matha > > She who appears to be fainted > > 577 > > Mathruka varna roopini > > She who is the model of colour and shape > > 578 > > Maha Kailasa nilaya > > She who sits on Maha Kailasa > > 579 > > Mrinala mrudhu dhorllatha > > She who has arms as tender as lotus stalk > > 580 > > Mahaneeya > > She who is fit to be venerated > > 581 > > Dhaya moorthi > > She who is personification of mercy > > 582 > > Maha samrajya shalini > > She who is the chef of all the worlds > > 583 > > Atma vidhya > > She who is the science of soul > > 584 > > Maha Vidhya > > She who is the great knowledge > > 585 > > Srividhya > > She who is the knowledge of Goddess > > 586 > > Kama sevitha > > She who is worshipped by Kama, the God of love > > 587 > > Sri Shodasakshari vidhya > > She who is the sixteen lettered knowledge > > 588 > > Trikoota > > She who is divided in to three parts > > 589 > > Kama Kotika > > She who sits on Kama Koti peetha > > 590 > > Kataksha kimkari bhootha kamala koti sevitha > > She who is attended by crores of Lakshmis who yearn for her simple > glance > > 591 > > Shira sthitha > > She who is in the head > > 592 > > Chandra nibha > > She who is like the full moon > > 593 > > Bhalastha > > She who is in the forehead > > 594 > > Indra Dhanu Prabha > > She who is like the rain bow > > 595 > > Hridayastha > > She who is in the heart > > 596 > > Ravi pragya > > She who has luster like Sun God > > 597 > > Tri konanthara deepika > > She who is like a light in a triangle > > 598 > > Dakshayani > > She who is the daughter of Daksha > > 599 > > Dhithya hanthri > > She who kills asuras > > 600 > > Daksha yagna vinasini > > She who destroyed the sacrifice of Rudra > > 601 > > Dharandholitha deergakshi > > She who has long eyes which have slight movement > > 602 > > Dharahasojwalanmukhi > > She who has face that glitters with her smile > > 603 > > Guru moorthi > > She who is the teacher > > 604 > > Guna nidhi > > She who is the treasure house of good qualities > > 605 > > Gomatha > > She who is the mother cow > > 606 > > Guhajanma bhoo > > She who is the birth place of Lord Subrahmanya > > 607 > > Deveshi > > She who is the goddess of Gods > > 608 > > Dhanda neethistha > > She who judges and punishes > > 609 > > Dhaharakasa roopini > > She who is of the form of wide sky > > 610 > > Prathi panmukhya rakantha thidhi mandala poojitha > > She who is being worshipped on all the fifteen days from full moon > to new moon > > 611 > > Kalathmika > > She who is the soul of arts > > 612 > > Kala nadha > > She who is the chief of arts > > 613 > > Kavya labha vimodhini > > She who enjoys being described in epics > > 614 > > Sachamara rama vani savya dhakshina sevitha > > She who is being fanned by Lakshmi the goddess of wealth and > Saraswathi the goddess of knowledge > > 615 > > Adishakthi > > She who is the primeval force > > 616 > > Ameya > > She who cannot be measured > > 617 > > Atma > > She who is the soul > > 618 > > Parama > > She who is better than all others > > 619 > > Pavana krithi > > She who is personification of purity > > 620 > > Aneka koti Bramanda janani > > She who is the mother of several billions of universes > > 621 > > Divya Vigraha > > She who is beautifully made > > 622 > > Klim karee > > She who is the shape of Â"KlimÂ" > > 623 > > Kevalaa > > She who is she herself > > 624 > > Guhya > > She who is secret > > 625 > > Kaivalya Padha dhayini > > She who gives redemption as well as position > > 626 > > Tripura > > She who lives everything in three aspects > > 627 > > Trijagat vandhya > > She who is worshipped by all in three worlds > > 628 > > Trimurthi > > She who is the trinity > > 629 > > Tri daseswari > > She who is the goddess for all gods > > 630 > > Tryakshya > > She who is of the form of three letters > > 631 > > Divya Gandhadya > > She who has godly smell > > 632 > > Sindhura thila kanchidha > > She who wears the sindhoora dot in her forehead > > 633 > > Uma > > She who is in Â"omÂ" > > 634 > > Sailendra Thanaya > > She who is the daughter of the king of mountains > > 635 > > Gowri > > She who is white coloured > > 636 > > Gandharwa Sevitha > > She who is worshipped by gandharwas > > 637 > > Viswa Grabha > > She who carries the universe in her belly > > 638 > > Swarna Garbha > > She who is personification of gold > > 639 > > Avaradha > > She who punishes bad people > > 640 > > Vagadeeswaree > > She who is the goddess of words > > 641 > > Dhyanagamya > > She who can be attained by meditation > > 642 > > Aparichedya > > She who cannot be predicted to be in a certain place > > 643 > > Gnadha > > She who gives out knowledge > > 644 > > Gnana Vigraha > > She who is personification of knowledge > > 645 > > Sarva vedhantha samvedya > > She who can be known by all Upanishads > > 646 > > Satyananda swaroopini > > She who is personification of truth and happiness > > 647 > > Lopa mudrarchitha > > She who is worshipped by Lopa Mudhra the wife of Agasthya > > 648 > > Leela kluptha brahmanda mandala > > She who creates the different universes by simple play > > 649 > > Adurshya > > She who cannot be seen > > 650 > > Drusya rahitha > > She who does not see things differently > > 651 > > Vignathree > > She who knows all sciences > > 652 > > Vedhya varjitha > > She who does not have any need to know anything > > 653 > > Yogini > > She who is personification of Yoga > > 654 > > Yogadha > > She who gives knowledge and experience of yoga > > 655 > > Yogya > > She who can be reached by yoga > > 656 > > Yogananda > > She who gets pleasure out of yoga > > 657 > > Yugandhara > > She who wears the yuga (Division of eons of time) > > 658 > > Iccha shakthi-Gnana shakthi-Kriya shakthi swaroopini > > She who has desire as her head, Knowledge as her body and work as > her feet > > 659 > > Sarvaadhara > > She who is the basis of everything > > 660 > > Suprathishta > > She who is the best place of stay > > 661 > > Sada sadroopa dharini > > She who always has truth in her > > 662 > > Ashta moorthy > > She who has eight forms > > 663 > > Aja jethree > > She who has won over ignorance > > 664 > > Loka yathra vidahyini > > She who makes the world rotate(travel) > > 665 > > Ekakini > > She who is only herself and alone > > 666 > > Bhooma roopa > > She who is what we see , hear and understand > > 667 > > Nirdwaitha > > She who makes everything as one > > 668 > > Dwaitha varjitha > > She who is away from Â"more than oneÂ" > > 669 > > Annadha > > She who gives food > > 670 > > Vasudha > > She who gives wealth > > 671 > > Vriddha > > She who is old > > 672 > > Brhmatmykya swaroopini > > She who merges herself in brahma-the ultimate truth > > 673 > > Brihathi > > She who is big > > 674 > > Brahmani > > She who is the wife of easwara > > 675 > > Brahmi > > She who has one aspect of Brhma > > 676 > > Brahmananda > > She who is the ultimate happiness > > 677 > > Bali priya > > She who likes the strong > > 678 > > Bhasha roopa > > She who is personification of language > > 679 > > Brihat sena > > She who has big army > > 680 > > Bhavabhava vivarjitha > > She who does not have birth or death > > 681 > > Sukharadhya > > She who can be worshipped with pleasure > > 682 > > Shubhakaree > > She who does good > > 683 > > Shobhana sulabha gathi > > She who is easy to attain and does only good > > 684 > > Raja rajeswari > > She who is goddess to king of kings like Devaraja, Yaksha raja, , > Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra > > 685 > > Rajya Dhayini > > She who gives kingdoms like Vaikunta, kailasa etc > > 686 > > Rajya vallabha > > She who likes such kingdoms > > 687 > > Rajat krupa > > She whose mercy shines everywhere > > 688 > > Raja peetha nivesitha nijasritha > > She who makes people approaching her as kings > > 689 > > Rajya lakshmi > > She who is the wealth of kingdoms > > 690 > > Kosa natha > > She who protects the treasury > > 691 > > Chathuranga baleswai > > She who is the leader of the four fold army (Mind, brain, thought > and ego) > > 692 > > Samrajya Dhayini > > She who makes you emperor > > 693 > > Sathya Sandha > > She who is truthful > > 694 > > Sagara Mekhala > > She who is the earth surrounded by the sea > > 695 > > Deekshitha > > She who gives the right to do fire sacrifice > > 696 > > Dhaitya Shamani > > She who controls anti gods > > 697 > > Sarva loka vasam kari > > She who keeps all the world within her control > > 698 > > Sarvartha Dhatri > > She who gives all wealth > > 699 > > Savithri > > She who is shines like the sun > > 700 > > Sachidananda roopini > > She who is personification of the ultimate truth > > 701 > > Desa kala parischinna > > She who is not divided by region or time > > 702 > > Sarvaga > > She who is full of everywhere > > 703 > > Sarva mohini > > She who attracts every thing > > 704 > > Saraswathi > > She who is the goddess of knowledge > > 705 > > Sasthra mayi > > She who is the meaning of sciences > > 706 > > Guhamba > > She who is mother of Lord Subrahmanya (Guha) > > 707 > > Guhya roopini > > She whose form is hidden from all > > 708 > > Sarvo padhi vinirmuktha > > She who does not have any doctrines > > 709 > > Sada shiva pathi vritha > > She who is devoted wife for all times to Lord Shiva > > 710 > > Sampradhayeshwari > > She who is goddess to rituals or She who is goddess to > teacher-student hierarchy > > 711 > > Sadhu > > She who is innocent > > 712 > > Ee > > She who is the letter Â"eÂ" > > 713 > > Guru mandala roopini > > She who is the universe round teachers > > 714 > > Kulotheerna > > She who is beyond the group of senses > > 715 > > Bhagaradhya > > She who is to be worshipped in the universe round the sun > > 716 > > Maya > > She who is illusion > > 717 > > Madhumathi > > She who is the trance stage (seventh ) in yoga > > 718 > > Mahee > > She who is personification of earth > > 719 > > Ganamba > > She who is mother to Ganesha and bhootha ganas > > 720 > > Guhyakaradhya > > She who should be worshipped in secret places > > 721 > > Komalangi > > She who has beautiful limbs > > 722 > > Guru Priya > > She who likes teachers > > 723 > > Swathanthra > > She who is independent > > 724 > > Sarwa thanthresi > > She who is goddess to all thanthras (tricks to attain God) > > 725 > > Dakshina moorthi roopini > > She who is the personification of God facing South (The teacher > form of Shiva) > > 726 > > Sanakadhi samaradhya > > She who is being worshipped by Sanaka sages > > 727 > > Siva gnana pradhayini > > She who gives the knowledge of God > > 728 > > Chid kala > > She who is the micro power deep within > > 729 > > Ananda Kalika > > She who is the happiness in beings > > 730 > > Prema roopa > > She who is the form of love > > 731 > > Priyamkaree > > She who does what is liked > > 732 > > Nama parayana preetha > > She who likes repetition of her various names > > 733 > > Nandhi vidhya > > She who is the knowledge taught by Nandi deva (The bull god on whom > shiva rides) > > 734 > > Nateshwaree > > She who is the goddess of dance > > 735 > > Mithya Jagat athishtana > > She who is luck to this world of illusion > > 736 > > Mukthida > > She who gives redemption > > 737 > > Mukthi roopini > > She who is redemption > > 738 > > Lasya priya > > She who likes feminine dance > > 739 > > Laya karee > > She who is the bridge between dance and music > > 740 > > Lajja > > She who is shy > > 741 > > Rambha adhi vandhitha > > She who is worshipped by the celestial dancers > > 742 > > Bhava dhava sudha vrishti > > She who douses the forest fire of the sad life of mortals with a > rain of nectar. > > 743 > > Paparanya dhavanala > > She who is the forest fire that destroys the forest of sin > > 744 > > Daurbhagya thoolavathoola > > She who is the cyclone that blows away the cotton of bad luck. > > 745 > > Jaradwanthara viprabha > > She who is the suns rays that swallows the darkness of old age > > 746 > > Bhagyabdhi chandrika > > She who is the full moon to the sea of luck > > 747 > > Bhaktha Chitta Keki Ganagana > > She who is the black cloud to the peacock which is he devotees mind > > 748 > > Roga parvatha Dhambola > > She who is the Vajra weapon which breaks the sickness which is like > the mountain > > 749 > > Mrutyu Dharu Kudarika > > She who is like the axe which fells the tree of death > > 750 > > Maheswaree > > She who is the greatest goddess > > 751 > > Maha kali > > She who is the great Kalee > > 752 > > Maha grasa > > She who is like a great drinking bowl > > 753 > > Mahasana > > She who is the great eater > > 754 > > Aparna > > She who did meditation without even eating a leaf > > 755 > > Chandika > > She who is supremely angry > > 756 > > Chanda mundasura nishoodhini > > She who killed the asuras called Chanda and Munda > > 757 > > Ksharaksharathmika > > She who can never be destroyed and also destroyed > > 758 > > Sarva lokesi > > She who is goddess to all the worlds > > 759 > > Viswa Dharini > > She who carries all the universe > > 760 > > Thrivarga Dhathri > > She who gives dharma, Assets and pleasure > > 761 > > Subhaga > > She who is pleasing to look at > > 762 > > Thryambhaga > > She who has three eyes > > 763 > > Trigunathmika > > She who is personification of three gunas viz .,Thamo (Kali), Rajo > (Dhurga) and Sathva (Parvathy) > > 764 > > Swargapavargadha > > She who gives heaven and the way to it > > 765 > > Shuddha > > She who is clean > > 766 > > Japapushpa nibhakrithi > > She who has the colour of hibiscus > > 767 > > Ojovathi > > She who is full of vigour > > 768 > > Dhyuthidhara > > She who has light > > 769 > > Yagna roopa > > She who is of the form of sacrifice > > 770 > > Priyavrudha > > She who likes penances > > 771 > > Dhuraradhya > > She who is rarely available for worship > > 772 > > Dhuradharsha > > She who cannot be won > > 773 > > Patali kusuma priya > > She who likes the buds of Patali tree > > 774 > > Mahathi > > She who is big > > 775 > > Meru nilaya > > She who lives in Meru mountain > > 776 > > Mandhara kusuma priya > > She who likes the buds of Mandhara tree > > 777 > > Veeraradhya > > She who is worshipped by heroes > > 778 > > Virad Roopa > > She who a universal look > > 779 > > Viraja > > She who does not have any blemish > > 780 > > Viswathomukhi > > She who sees through every ones eyes > > 781 > > Prathyg roopa > > She who can be seen by looking inside > > 782 > > Parakasa > > She who is the great sky > > 783 > > Pranadha > > She who gives the soul > > 784 > > Prana roopini > > She who is the soul > > 785 > > Marthanda Bhairavaradhya > > She who is being worshipped by Marthanda Bhairava > > 786 > > Manthrini nyashtha rajyadhoo > > She who gave the power to rule to her form of Manthrini > > 787 > > Tripuresi > > She who is the head of three cities > > 788 > > Jayatsena > > She who has an army which wins > > 789 > > Nistrai gunya > > She who is above the three qualities > > 790 > > Parapara > > She who is outside and inside > > 791 > > Satya gnananda roopa > > She who is personification of truth, knowledge and happiness > > 792 > > Samarasya parayana > > She who stands in peace > > 793 > > Kapardhini > > She who is the wife of Kapardhi (Siva with hair) > > 794 > > Kalamala > > She who wears arts as garlands > > 795 > > Kamadhukh > > She who fulfills desires > > 796 > > Kama roopini > > She who can take any form > > 797 > > Kala nidhi > > She who is the treasure of arts > > 798 > > Kavya kala > > She who is the art of writing > > 799 > > Rasagna > > She who appreciates arts > > 800 > > Rasa sevadhi > > She who is the treasure of arts > > 801 > > Pushta > > She who is healthy > > 802 > > Purathana > > She who is ancient > > 803 > > Poojya > > She who is fit to be worshipped > > 804 > > Pushkara > > She who gives exuberance > > 805 > > Pushkarekshana > > She who has lotus like eyes > > 806 > > Paramjyothi > > She who is the ultimate light > > 807 > > Param dhama > > She who is the ultimate resting place > > 808 > > Paramanu > > She who is the ultimate atom > > 809 > > Parath para > > She who is better than the best > > 810 > > Pasa Hastha > > She who has rope in her hand > > 811 > > Pasa Hanthri > > She who cuts off attachment > > 812 > > Para manthra Vibhedini > > She who destroys the effect of spells cast > > 813 > > Moortha > > She who has a form > > 814 > > Amoortha > > She who does not have a form > > 815 > > Anithya thriptha > > She who gets happy with prayers using temporary things > > 816 > > Muni manasa hamsika > > She who is the swan in the mind ( lake like) of sages > > 817 > > Satya vritha > > She who has resolved to speak only truth > > 818 > > Sathya roopa > > She who is the real form > > 819 > > Sarvantharyamini > > She who is within everything > > 820 > > Sathee > > She who is Sathee the daughter of Daksha > > 821 > > Brahmani > > She who is the strength behind creator > > 822 > > Brahmaa > > She who is the creator > > 823 > > Janani > > She who is the mother > > 824 > > Bahu roopa > > She who has several forms > > 825 > > Budharchitha > > She who is being worshipped by the enlightened > > 826 > > Prasavithri > > She who has given birth to everything > > 827 > > Prachanda > > She who is very angry > > 828 > > Aagna > > She who is the order > > 829 > > Prathishta > > She who has been installed > > 830 > > Prakata Krithi > > She who is clearly visible > > 831 > > Praneshwari > > She who is goddess to the soul > > 832 > > Prana Dhatri > > She who gives the soul > > 833 > > Panchast peeta roopini > > She who is in fifty Shakthi peethas like Kama ropa, Varanasi. Ujjain > etc > > 834 > > Vishungala > > She who is not chained > > 835 > > Vivikthastha > > She who is in lonely places > > 836 > > Veera matha > > She who is the mother of heroes > > 837 > > Viyat prasoo > > She who has created the sky > > 838 > > Mukundaa > > She who gives redemption > > 839 > > Mukthi nilaya > > She who is the seat of redemption > > 840 > > Moola vigraha roopini > > She who is the basic statue > > 841 > > Bavagna > > She who understands wishes and thoughts > > 842 > > Bhava rokagni > > She who cures the sin of birth > > 843 > > Bhava Chakra Pravarthani > > She makes the wheel of birth rotate > > 844 > > Chanda sara > > She who is the meaning of Vedas > > 845 > > Sasthra sara > > She who is the meaning of Puranas(epics) > > 846 > > Manthra sara > > She who is the meaning of Manthras ( chants) > > 847 > > Thalodharee > > She who has a small belly > > 848 > > Udara keerthi > > She who has wide and tall fame > > 849 > > Uddhhama vaibhava > > She who has immeasurable fame > > 850 > > Varna roopini > > She who is personification of alphabets > > 851 > > Janma mrutyu jara thaptha jana vishranthi dhayini > > She who is the panacea of ills of birth, death and aging > > 852 > > Sarvopanisha dhudh gushta > > She who is being loudly announced as the greatest by Upanishads > > 853 > > Shantyathheetha kalathmika > > She who is a greater art than peace > > 854 > > Gambheera > > She whose depth cannot be measured > > 855 > > Gagananthastha > > She who is situated in the sky > > 856 > > Garvitha > > She who is proud > > 857 > > Gana lolupa > > She who likes songs > > 858 > > Kalpana rahitha > > She who does not imagine > > 859 > > Kashta > > She who is in the ultimate boundary > > 860 > > Akantha > > She who removes sins > > 861 > > Kanthatha vigraha > > She who is half of her husband (kantha) > > 862 > > Karya karana nirmuktha > > She who is beyond the action and the cause > > 863 > > Kama keli tharangitha > > She who is the waves of the sea of the play of the God > > 864 > > Kanath kanaka thadanga > > She who wears the glittering golden ear studs > > 865 > > Leela vigraha dharini > > She who assumes several forms as play > > 866 > > Ajha > > She who does not have birth > > 867 > > Kshaya nirmuktha > > She who does not have death > > 868 > > Gubdha > > She who is beautiful > > 869 > > Ksipra prasadhini > > She who is pleased quickly > > 870 > > Anthar mukha samaradhya > > She who is worshipped by internal thoughts > > 871 > > Bahir mukha sudurlabha > > She who can be attained by external prayers > > 872 > > Thrayee > > She who is of the form of three Vedas viz Rik, yajur and sama > > 873 > > Trivarga nilaya > > She who is in three aspects of self, assets and pleasure > > 874 > > Thristha > > She who is in three > > 875 > > Tripura malini > > She who is in tripura the sixth section of Srichakra > > 876 > > Niramaya > > She who is without diseases > > 877 > > Niralamba > > She who does not need another birth > > 878 > > Swatma rama > > She who enjoys within herself > > 879 > > Sudha sruthi > > She who is the rain of nectar > > 880 > > Samsara panga nirmagna samuddharana panditha > > She who is capable of saving people who drown in the mud of day > today life > > 881 > > Yagna priya > > She who likes fire sacrifice > > 882 > > Yagna karthree > > She who carries out fire sacrifice > > 883 > > Yajamana swaroopini > > She who is the doer of fire sacrifice > > 884 > > Dharma dhara > > She who is the basis of Dharma-the rightful action > > 885 > > Dhanadyaksha > > She who presides over wealth > > 886 > > Dhanadhanya vivardhani > > She who makes wealth and grain to grow > > 887 > > Vipra priya > > She who likes those who learn Vedas > > 888 > > Vipra roopa > > She who is the learner of Vedas > > 889 > > Viswa brhamana karini > > She who makes the universe to rotate > > 890 > > Viswa grasa > > She who eats the universe in one handful > > 891 > > Vidhrumabha > > She who has the luster of coral > > 892 > > Vaishnavi > > She who is the power of Vishnu > > 893 > > Vishnu roopini > > She who is Vishnu > > 894 > > Ayoni > > She who does not have a cause or She who is not born > > 895 > > Yoni nilaya > > She who is the cause and source of everything > > 896 > > Kootastha > > She who is stable > > 897 > > Kula roopini > > She who is personification of culture > > 898 > > Veera goshti priya > > She who likes company of heroes > > 899 > > Veera > > She who has valour > > 900 > > Naish karmya > > She who does not have attachment to action > > 901 > > Nadha roopini > > She who is the form of sound > > 902 > > Vignana kalana > > She who makes science > > 903 > > Kalya > > She who is expert in arts > > 904 > > Vidhagdha > > She who is an expert > > 905 > > Baindavasana > > She who sits in the dot of the thousand petalled lotus > > 906 > > Tathwadhika > > She who is above all metaphysics > > 907 > > Tatwa mayee > > She who is Metaphysics > > 908 > > Tatwa Martha swaroopini > > She who is personification of this and that > > 909 > > Sama gana priya > > She who likes singing of sama > > 910 > > Soumya > > She who is peaceful or She who is as pretty as the moon > > 911 > > Sada shiva kutumbini > > She who is consort of Sada shiva > > 912 > > Savyapa savya margastha > > She who is birth, death and living or She who likes the priestly and > tantric methods > > 913 > > Sarva apadvi nivarini > > She who removes all dangers > > 914 > > Swastha > > She who has everything within her or She who is peaceful > > 915 > > Swabhava madura > > She who is by nature sweet > > 916 > > Dheera > > She who is courageous > > 917 > > Dheera samarchida > > She who is being worshipped by the courageous > > 918 > > Chaithnyarkya samaradhya > > She who is worshipped by the ablation of water > > 919 > > Chaitanya kusuma priya > > She who likes the never fading flowers > > 920 > > Saddothitha > > She who never sets > > 921 > > Sadha thushta > > She who is always happy > > 922 > > Tharunadithya patala > > She who like the young son is red mixed with white > > 923 > > Dakshina Daksinaradhya > > She who is worshipped by the learned and ignorant > > 924 > > Dharasmera mukhambuja > > She who has a smiling face like the lotus in full bloom > > 925 > > Kaulini kevala > > She who is mixture of the koula and kevala methods > > 926 > > Anargya kaivalya pada dhayini > > She who gives the immeasurable heavenly stature > > 927 > > Stotra priya > > She who likes chants > > 928 > > Sthuthi mathi > > She who gives boons for those who sing her chants > > 929 > > Sthuthi samsthutha vaibhava > > She who is worshipped by the Vedas > > 930 > > Manaswaini > > She who has a stable mind > > 931 > > Manavathi > > She who has big heart > > 932 > > Mahesi > > She who is the greatest goddess > > 933 > > Mangala kruthi > > She who does only good > > 934 > > Viswa Matha > > The mother of the universe > > 935 > > Jagat Dhathri > > She who supports the world > > 936 > > Visalakshi > > She who is broad eyed > > 937 > > Viragini > > She who has renounced > > 938 > > Pragalbha > > She who is courageous > > 939 > > Paramodhara > > She who is great giver > > 940 > > Paramodha > > She who has great happiness > > 941 > > Manomayi > > She who is one with mind > > 942 > > Vyoma kesi > > She who is the wife of Shiva who has sky as his hair > > 943 > > Vimanastha > > She who is at the top > > 944 > > Vajrini > > She who has indraÂ's wife as a part > > 945 > > Vamakeshwaree > > She who is goddess of the people who follow the left path > > 946 > > Pancha yagna priya > > She who likes the five sacrifices > > 947 > > Pancha pretha manchadhi sayini > > She who sleeps on the cot made of five corpses > > 948 > > Panchami > > She who is the consort of Sadshiva –the fifth of the pancha brahmas > > 949 > > Pancha bhoothesi > > She who is the chief of Pancha bhoothas viz earth, sky, fire, air. > And water > > 950 > > Pancha sankhyopacharini > > She who is to be worshipped by five methods of Gandha(sandal wood), > Pushpa(flower), Dhoopa(incense), dheepa(light), Naivedya(offering) > > 951 > > Saswathi > > She who is permanent > > 952 > > Saswathaiswarya > > She who gives perennial wealth > > 953 > > Sarmadha > > She who gives pleasure > > 954 > > Sambhu mohini > > She who bewitches Lord Shiva > > 955 > > Dhara > > She who carries (beings like earth) > > 956 > > Dharasutha > > She who is the daughter of the mountain > > 957 > > Dhanya > > She who has all sort of wealth > > 958 > > Dharmini > > She who likes dharma > > 959 > > Dharma vardhini > > She who makes dharma grow > > 960 > > Loka theetha > > She who is beyond the world > > 961 > > Guna theetha > > She who is beyond properties > > 962 > > Sarvatheetha > > She who is beyond everything > > 963 > > Samathmika > > She who is peace > > 964 > > Bhandhooka kusuma prakhya > > She who has the glitter of bhandhooka flowers > > 965 > > Bala > > She who is a young maiden > > 966 > > Leela Vinodhini > > She who loves to play > > 967 > > Sumangali > > She who gives all good things > > 968 > > Sukha kari > > She who gives pleasure > > 969 > > Suveshadya > > She who is well made up > > 970 > > Suvasini > > She who is sweet scented(married woman) > > 971 > > Suvasinyarchana preetha > > She who likes the worship of married woman > > 972 > > AAshobhana > > She who has full glitter > > 973 > > Shuddha manasa > > She who has a clean mind > > 974 > > Bindhu tharpana santhushta > > She who is happy with the offering in the dot of Ananda maya chakra > > 975 > > Poorvaja > > She who preceded every one > > 976 > > Tripurambika > > She who is the goddess of three cities > > 977 > > Dasa mudhra samaradhya > > She who is worshipped by ten mudras(postures of the hand) > > 978 > > Thrpura sree vasankari > > She who keeps the goddess Tripura sree > > 979 > > Gnana mudhra > > She who shows the symbol of knowledge > > 980 > > Gnana gamya > > She who can be attained by knowledge > > 981 > > Gnana gneya swaroopini > > She who is what is thought and the thought > > 982 > > Yoni mudhra > > She who shows the symbol of pleasure > > 983 > > Trikhandesi > > She who is the lord of three zones of fire, moon and sun > > 984 > > Triguna > > She who is three characters > > 985 > > Amba > > She who is the mother > > 986 > > Trikonaga > > She who has attained at all vertices of a triangle > > 987 > > Anaga > > She who is not neared by sin > > 988 > > Adbutha charithra > > She who has a wonderful history > > 989 > > Vanchithartha pradayini > > She who gives what is desired > > 990 > > Abhyasathisaya gnatha > > She who can be realized by constant practice > > 991 > > Shaddwatheetha roopini > > She who supersedes the six methods of prayers > > 992 > > Avyaja karuna moorhy > > She who shows mercy without reason > > 993 > > Agnana dwantha deepika > > She who is the lamp that drives away ignorance > > 994 > > Abala gopa vidhitha > > She who is worshipped by all right from children and cowherds > > 995 > > Sarvan ullangya sasana > > She whose orders can never be disobeyed > > 996 > > Sri chakra raja nilaya > > She who lives in Srichakra > > 997 > > Sri math thripura sundari > > The beautiful goddess of wealth who is consort of the Lord of > Tripura > > 998 > > Sri shivaa > > She who is the eternal peace > > 999 > > Shiva shakthaikya roopini > > She who is unification of Shiva and Shakthi > > 1000 > > Lalithambika > > The easily approachable mother > > > > > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web > links. > > > >------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >reader-list mailing list > >reader-list at sarai.net > >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 134 > >******************************************** > > > Cell - 9818063517 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 10:30:26 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:30:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rama As KundiKaran In-Reply-To: <20070922045011.21879.qmail@f4mail203.rediffmail.com> References: <20070922045011.21879.qmail@f4mail203.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709212200q460c87f3lcf433a63e3b9b48d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sh Radhakrihnan, NamaskAr Your mail has been a pleasure to read and your frank views very well appreciated . I wonder why on an issue which should be condemned sraight away , the comrades as silent. As you wrote "Interestingly the Cong and the upper caste left progressive are displaying a muted silence" , though Mr Karat has said recently that there is no proof of ramas existence ....I wonder if Mr Karat has proofs of everything related to him in his life which he believes in ! Pawan On 22 Sep 2007 04:50:11 -0000, Radhakrishnan wrote: > > Dear Sh Pawan, > I agree with your observations. I am subject to correction If I had meant > giving license to hurt any group or community's faith or belief. > > What I meant was that the stray comments made by Karunanidhi are something > which has been part and parcel of his politics. He is merely trying to > deploy old lexicon/issues raised during the heydays of the periyar > movement.Unfortunately it also present the worst case of casteist and > parochial society all in the name of launching a movement in the name of > social justice. So What I would lay emphasis on, is the perverted deployment > of secularism and its distorted projection. Interestingly the Cong and the > upper caste left progressive are displaying a muted silence. > > Its rather a last ditch attempt by a party chief who is sick of the > wranglings in his own party and family, which has got too many contenders, > since Dalits don't deserve any kind of empowerment in the power discourse of > the DMK.But despite the media hype the self styled KIng of Arts can't > score any brownie points since the Science and rationality to which he so > vehemently adheres to has disproved the so called Aryan and Dravidian wars > and divides. > > If Ravana is the hero for him, its again a vindication of the Indian > culture and ethos and hypothetically Karaunanidhi with all contrived > passion/honesty and belligerence would end up supporting a learned Shiva > bakht BRAHMIN that Ravana was! > > Finally its quite natural for Kshatriya to have meat and Sumabhan,what is > amusing is Karunanidhi choses to see as a big scientific discovery and > thinks of having a pseudo intelectual debate on it. The question is what is > its relevance to our present and day to day existence! > > Moreover self abnegation is a classic art mastered by our brahmin as well > non brahmin elites - thanks to the British Raj. > > Radhakrishnan > > > > > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Sep 22 11:43:05 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] *******************************************More Clarification******************************************** Message-ID: <448049.10287.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All, My writings are not emotional outburst/to disrespect old people. But one must understand debates will go like this with contractor's and supporters. ----------Next coming back to Tapas, 1) If Tapas is not part of this country(INDIA), then how can he talk about the politics of India? 2) If Tapas don't know about KARUNANIDHI and HIS BACKGROUND(at-least paper/bookish knowledge) how can he talk on that subject or any subject related to India? But tapas spoke about the country(INDIA),its judiciary and the almighty. what to say and conclude now is ............................................................................................ ---------Comments on RAM 1) Why the atheists question ram and ramayan if they are dubious, as per them they don't believe, or exploit themselves that they don't believe lets say??? 2) As per their point of view and beliefs, the questions and doubts on non-existent things are void to the rest of the people that too from wrong personalities. ----------On all ATHEISTS 1) As they don't believe, they just should not believe truly. CASE WISE ANALYSIS: Case A: That means they should restrict themselves not to believe in anything including self. But They are believing in self and socializing without any restrictions, That means they violated their own belief? Case B: They used to read dubiously and interpret as per their own poetic way and gossip, to do things like MADYAPAN and VASTHRAPAHARAN. Any thing(right/wrong) should be implemented with "MANASA,VAACHA,KARMANA". Translation: MANASA===WITH HEART,VAACHA===With Talk,KARMANA===with actions But as per CASE A, they will never qualify because the path is pretty hard to survive, and CASE B, they will always succeed because its very easy NO RESTRICTIONS from any side more over there is a lot of support and amusement is there . 2) How does anybody can compare PAST WITH PRESENT? This is wrong and will never stand for any kind of logic and argument. Time is evolving always, only our views and actions are dubious by choosing wrong way. -----Finally on ANAMIKA Though I am able to write and quote by using many references from past and present, but keeping in view of members of the SARAI(I used to say SARAI PEOPLE including whoever with SARAI ), I prefer to use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamika for simplicity. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. From sarah.turner at manchesterurbanscreens.org.uk Fri Sep 21 18:12:07 2007 From: sarah.turner at manchesterurbanscreens.org.uk (Sarah Turner) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:42:07 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Urban Screens Manchester Newsletter 5 Message-ID: <005e01c7fc4c$d2bfaec0$1832a8c0@sarahj6y7loy0> SPECIAL OFFER - BOOK BEFORE SEPTEMBER 30th Two days: GBP80 / GBP60 concs One day: GBP60 / GBP40 concs DELEGATE RATES AFTER SEPTEMPER 30th Two days: GBP100 / GBP80 concs One day: GBP80 / GBP60 Which curatorial criteria should be applied to the creation and curation of urban screens? Do urban screens suit a presentation of elaborate artistic content or will entertainment win over art? These questions along with many others will be addressed on day two of the conference, accompanied by two inspiring screenings from the art & events programme. Read on... Focus Session: Curating Screen Art for an Urban and Architectural Context, Cornerhouse Moderator Mike Stubbs (UK) is Director of FACT in Liverpool. His own internationally commissioned artwork includes media installations and large-scale projections for public environments. He will lead the discussion on the role that curators and new media experts could play in the conception of media facades and other urban screens. At present, many existing urban screens lack the comprehensive sophistication that allows exploration of spatial, architectural or medial potentials. Sylvia Kouvali (GR) is the initiator and curator of Yama, the first international space for publicising contemporary art in Turkey that opened in July 2007. Based on this experience, Kouvali will present a dialogue on how democratic or populist the content of the imposing and omnipresent screen can be and how much one can really show in public. Michelle Kasprzak (CA/UK) is a curator, writer, and artist. She argues that presenting artwork on urban screens comes with a special set of considerations, challenges, and advantages that are unique to that context. Kasprzak will examine the opportunities that are opened up to artists and curators within this emerging format. Dooeun Choi (KR) is the curator at Art Center Nabi which opened in 2000 as the first media art centre in Seoul, Korea. She will introduce COMO, an extended media platform located in the centre. Since 2004, the LED displays have been known as a unique multi-media installation which integrates art and architecture to create a new convergence. The focus is not on the outcomes but the creative energy emerging from free and imaginative human communication. Otherworldly & Best of Transmedia, All screens Curated by Michelle Kasprzak, Otherworldly premiered on the public screen at Federation Square, Melbourne, and features contributions by artists that take viewers on a journey through spaces that are at once familiar and alien. Best of Transmedia is a programme for which artists produced moving-image work that is very short (often a minute or less), and that could be sandwiched between advertisements. But as with most limitations, the condition of using urban screens as a platform fosters innovative work. Communication <--> Spaces, All Saints Dooeun Choi has curated Communication <--> Spaces, a time-based visual poem and collaboration between the Korean motion graphics designer Weong-Woong Cheong and artist Bill Seaman. The work poetically explores notions of the space of communication, underlined by traditional Korean music and experimental dance music. Register your interest now at www.manchesterurbanscreens.org.uk Urban Screens Manchester has been curated by Dr Susanne Jaschko . Urban Screens Manchester has been supported by Cornerhouse and BBC. It has been funded by Arts Council England, Manchester City Council, Marketing Manchester. With support from MDDA and Manchester Knowledge Capital. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ................................................. Sarah Turner International PR Urban Screens Manchester 07 www.manchesterurbanscreens.org.uk +49 (0)162 526 5624 -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From keshvani at leoalmanac.org Sat Sep 22 08:33:26 2007 From: keshvani at leoalmanac.org (Nisar Keshvani, LEA) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 11:03:26 +0800 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] ISEA 2008: Call for Papers, Panels and Artist Presentations Message-ID: <5d60ab0c0709212003y777a8b09x30fdeeacd5f84aab@mail.gmail.com> ISEA on Leonardo Electronic Almanac: http://leoalmanac.org/resources/sprojects/ISEA08/ ISEA website: http://isea2008.org/ Submission Link: http://isea2008.org/openconf/openconf.php *Call for Papers, Panels and Artist Presentations* We cordially invite submissions to the conference of the International Symposium on Electronic Art 2008 that will be held in Singapore between 25th & 30th July 2008. The conference is held alongside workshops, courses, exhibitions, performances and other in-conjunction events that will be held for the duration of ISEA2008 from 25th July to August 3rd 2008. The conference, as in previous ISEAs, is expected to bring together artists, theorists, historians, curators and researchers of media arts from around the world to jointly explore the most urgent and exciting questions in the field. The five themesof ISEA2008 are especially focused on eliciting a wide range of international scholars and artists. *Conference Programme* The conference programme will include competitively selected, peer-reviewed *individual papers* and *panel presentations*. This year we are also encouraging artists who wish to share their works with a broader audience of their peers to submit *artist presentations* where they can speak about the specific aesthetic, conceptual and technological aspects of their works. The conference also promises to present a list of internationally renowned *Keynote Speakers* expounding on the major themes of the conference. There will also be a special lecture delivered by a Nobel Laureate. *Call for Proposals* We welcome contributions from creative practitioners and researchers from a variety of disciplines and institutional contexts as media arts benefits from and exemplifies the interdisciplinary linkages between contemporary art, science, technology and their related philosophies, pedagogies and institutional practices. The submissions must address or be of relevance to at least one of the themes of ISEA2008 in order to be considered for inclusion in the conference. The conference will be of interest to those working in but not limited to the following areas: media art, contemporary art, design, art history and theory, film and media studies, gaming, toy design, human-computer interaction, cultural studies, literary studies, musicology, sound studies, theatre, dance and performance studies, science, technology and society studies, history of science and history of technology, philosophy, history, gender studies, political science, anthropology, sociology and geography. * Submissions * A dedicated website and online paper submission system is currently being developed and will be ready for submissions from 15th July 2007. *Submission period:* *15th July - 30th of September 2007. ** Submission link* *Submission requirements:* We only require abstracts (not more than 300 words) of the proposed paper, panel presentations and artist presentations to be submitted in either Text, RTF, Word or PDF formats via this site. Please do not submit full papers at this stage. While we encourage submissions to include relevant images, it would be useful if the formats in which such images are submitted is restricted to low resolution jpegs. In the case of submissions for artists' presentations, artists are encouraged to provide links to their and/or relevant websites. The *deadline* for submissions will be *30th of September 2007*. Submissions sent after this date will not be considered. *The Leonardo Electronic Almanac (MIT Press) is the media partner for the ISEA Conference 2008.* --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leonardo electronic almanac alerts list" group. To post to this group, send email to LEAalerts at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to LEAalerts-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/LEAalerts -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Sep 22 11:50:44 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] A small correction In-Reply-To: <448049.10287.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <989746.5141.qm@web45505.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> >>>My writings are not emotional outburst/to disrespect old people. But >>>one must understand debates will go like this with contractor's and >>>supporters. Please read as "Contradictors". we wi wrote: Dear All, My writings are not emotional outburst/to disrespect old people. But one must understand debates will go like this with contractor's and supporters. ----------Next coming back to Tapas, 1) If Tapas is not part of this country(INDIA), then how can he talk about the politics of India? 2) If Tapas don't know about KARUNANIDHI and HIS BACKGROUND(at-least paper/bookish knowledge) how can he talk on that subject or any subject related to India? But tapas spoke about the country(INDIA),its judiciary and the almighty. what to say and conclude now is ............................................................................................ ---------Comments on RAM 1) Why the atheists question ram and ramayan if they are dubious, as per them they don't believe, or exploit themselves that they don't believe lets say??? 2) As per their point of view and beliefs, the questions and doubts on non-existent things are void to the rest of the people that too from wrong personalities. ----------On all ATHEISTS 1) As they don't believe, they just should not believe truly. CASE WISE ANALYSIS: Case A: That means they should restrict themselves not to believe in anything including self. But They are believing in self and socializing without any restrictions, That means they violated their own belief? Case B: They used to read dubiously and interpret as per their own poetic way and gossip, to do things like MADYAPAN and VASTHRAPAHARAN. Any thing(right/wrong) should be implemented with "MANASA,VAACHA,KARMANA". Translation: MANASA===WITH HEART,VAACHA===With Talk,KARMANA===with actions But as per CASE A, they will never qualify because the path is pretty hard to survive, and CASE B, they will always succeed because its very easy NO RESTRICTIONS from any side more over there is a lot of support and amusement is there . 2) How does anybody can compare PAST WITH PRESENT? This is wrong and will never stand for any kind of logic and argument. Time is evolving always, only our views and actions are dubious by choosing wrong way. -----Finally on ANAMIKA Though I am able to write and quote by using many references from past and present, but keeping in view of members of the SARAI(I used to say SARAI PEOPLE including whoever with SARAI ), I prefer to use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamika for simplicity. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. From rana at ranadasgupta.com Sat Sep 22 18:04:39 2007 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:04:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Shakti Bhatt Foundation announces the 2008 "Shakti Bhatt First Book Prize" Message-ID: <46F50BDF.1060802@ranadasgupta.com> Please forward. R September 27 would have been the 27th birthday of writer and editor Shakti Bhatt. The occasion will be marked by the announcement of the inaugural Shakti Bhatt First Book Prize. For those in Delhi, there will be an event in the Charbagh of the British Council at 7pm, where friends of Shakti will read from her work and remember her with poetry, short fiction, and music. THE SHAKTI BHATT FOUNDATION announces the inaugural Shakti Bhatt First Book Prize The Shakti Bhatt Foundation was set up by her family to keep her memory alive. The Shakti Bhatt First Book Prize will reward first-time authors of all ages. Any first book published between June 1, 2007 and June 30, 2008 is eligible for the 2008 prize. We invite entries in the following genres: poetry, fiction, creative non-fiction (travel writing, autobiography, biography, and narrative journalism) and drama. The Shakti Bhatt First Book Prize is a cash award of one lakh rupees. A 3-member panel of judges will shortlist 6 books published between June 1, 2007 and June 30, 2008. The 2008 panel of judges includes William Dalrymple and Kamila Shamsie. The deadline for entries is July 15, 2008. Only books published in India are eligible. Publications must be in English or translated into English from an Indian language. Vanity press publications are ineligible. The Shakti Bhatt Foundation is a non-profit trust. Books should be sent to the following address: The Shakti Bhatt Foundation 166/A Rajmahal Vilas Ext 8B Main Road Bangalore 560 080 From aadityadar at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 19:43:42 2007 From: aadityadar at gmail.com (Aaditya Dar) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 16:13:42 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] ATTENTION! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Two dozen goons molest a girl student of Delhi University in broad daylight within the campus. If you think this is unacceptable, read on: Examinees appearing for a police recruitment test in the university on Sunday ended up sexually assaulting several girl students of various colleges, attacking in droves, tearing off clothes and beating up guards. This happened in broad daylight within the university campus. Further, the police refused to register FIRs, observing that "nobody got raped" [except for the law, of course] The university administration and the "elected" students union woke up to the facts only after several hundred students mounted a vociferous protest. They've promised a slew of purely ornamental actions which will definitely NOT help in dealing a death blow to the problem of sexual harassment and eve-teasing in the campus, which seems to have become institutionalized in DU. The fact remains that such cases continue to recur in DU with frightening regularity. But the administration still doesn't wake up from its slumber and it doesn't develop any mechanisms which will deal with sexual harassment on a daily basis. *UNITED STUDENTS*, an independent group of DU students which has in the past fought for justice in the Priyadarshini Mattoo and Jessica Lall cases, *is taking the initiative of bringing together parents of DU students and other concerned citizens to press for our demands of developing constructive mechanisms to deal with sexual harassment on campus.* We want DU to be a safe and enclosed campus, with its own sensitized and sensitive security force [which would also comprise student volunteers] and a strong central body made up of elected student and teacher representatives, with statutory powers to deal with sexual harassment on campus. *United Students organizes protest of parents and other concerned citizens against repeated sexual harassment in DU. * On 23rd September 2007 (Sunday) Central Park, Connought Place at 5:30 PM ** ** ** ** ** *LETS JOIN HANDS TO SHAKE THEM OFF THEIR COMPLACENCY. IT'S THE UNIVERSITY'S RESONSIBILITY TO ENSURE SAFETY OF ALL ITS STUDENTS. * For more information pl. contact Ritwik (9873554908), Ekta (9818649392), Nikhita (9818318359), Nupur (9868870647) From monica at sarai.net Sat Sep 22 19:57:41 2007 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 19:57:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] list protocol Message-ID: Dear All, As List Administrator I have previously requested that list members desist from frivolous posts and from personalized attacks. Despite this, we have continued to see a spate of posts that can be seen as nothing short of flaming. I have received repeated requests from several list members asking for some intervention on account of the abusive content, tone or language of postings, or to the way postings pay no heed to the purposes of this list. We have so far refrained from doing so because this is a space committed to freedom of expression, and we value this freedom highly. Taking advantage of this freedom, however, to indulge in a very high volume of posts that effectively dominates the discussion list for days and weeks on end is also not very good for the health of freedom of expression on the list. Keeping this in view, I would like to request the following high- volume contributors not to post to the Reader-list for a period of two weeks in order to allow other discussions to resume. I hope that after this "cooling-off" period, exchanges between these contributors will be more considered, and more considerate of the need to allow space to other voices. Shuddhabrata Sengupta Gargi Sen Zainab Bawa Partha Dasgupta Pawan Durani We Wi/Dhatri Rahul Asthana Kshmendra Kaul Thank you. regards list admin Monica Narula Raqs Sarai-CSDS 29 Rajpur Road Delhi 110 054 www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From ixa10 at psu.edu Sun Sep 23 03:38:07 2007 From: ixa10 at psu.edu (Irina Aristarkhova) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:08:07 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] ISEA 2008 Singapore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ISEA on Leonardo Electronic Almanac: http://leoalmanac.org/resources/sprojects/ISEA08/ ISEA website: http://isea2008.org/ Submission Link: http://isea2008.org/openconf/openconf.php Call for Papers, Panels and Artist Presentations We cordially invite submissions to the conference of the International Symposium on Electronic Art 2008 that will be held in Singapore between 25th & 30th July 2008. The conference is held alongside workshops, courses, exhibitions, performances and other in-conjunction events that will be held for the duration of ISEA2008 from 25th July to August 3rd 2008. Submission requirements: We only require abstracts (not more than 300 words) of the proposed paper, panel presentations and artist presentations to be submitted in either Text, RTF, Word or PDF formats via this site. Please do not submit full papers at this stage. While we encourage submissions to include relevant images, it would be useful if the formats in which such images are submitted is restricted to low resolution jpegs. In the case of submissions for artists' presentations, artists are encouraged to provide links to their and/or relevant websites. Submission link Call for Papers, Panels and Artist Presentations We cordially invite submissions to the conference of the International Symposium on Electronic Art 2008 that will be held in Singapore between 25th & 30th July 2008. The conference is held alongside workshops, courses, exhibitions, performances and other in-conjunction events that will be held for the duration of ISEA2008 from 25th July to August 3rd 2008. The conference, as in previous ISEAs, is expected to bring together artists, theorists, historians, curators and researchers of media arts from around the world to jointly explore the most urgent and exciting questions in the field. The five themes of ISEA2008 are especially focused on eliciting a wide range of international scholars and artists. Conference Programme The conference programme will include competitively selected, peer-reviewed individual papers and panel presentations. This year we are also encouraging artists who wish to share their works with a broader audience of their peers to submit artist presentations where they can speak about the specific aesthetic, conceptual and technological aspects of their works. The conference also promises to present a list of internationally renowned Keynote Speakers expounding on the major themes of the conference. There will also be a special lecture delivered by a Nobel Laureate. Call for Proposals We welcome contributions from creative practitioners and researchers from a variety of disciplines and institutional contexts as media arts benefits from and exemplifies the interdisciplinary linkages between contemporary art, science, technology and their related philosophies, pedagogies and institutional practices. The submissions must address or be of relevance to at least one of the themes of ISEA2008 in order to be considered for inclusion in the conference. The conference will be of interest to those working in but not limited to the following areas: media art, contemporary art, design, art history and theory, film and media studies, gaming, toy design, human-computer interaction, cultural studies, literary studies, musicology, sound studies, theatre, dance and performance studies, science, technology and society studies, history of science and history of technology, philosophy, history, gender studies, political science, anthropology, sociology and geography. Submissions deadline: 30th of September 2007 (or contact the organizers). Submission link Submission requirements: We only require abstracts (not more than 300 words) of the proposed paper, panel presentations and artist presentations to be submitted in either Text, RTF, Word or PDF formats via this site. Please do not submit full papers at this stage. While we encourage submissions to include relevant images, it would be useful if the formats in which such images are submitted is restricted to low resolution jpegs. In the case of submissions for artists' presentations, artists are encouraged to provide links to their and/or relevant websites. From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 20:33:56 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:33:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Film Screening: RESISTING COASTAL INVASION (Fwd) Message-ID: <46F6805C.5080105@gmail.com> INSAF Delhi invites you to a screening of the documentary film RESISTING COASTAL INVASION (English, 52 minutes) Directed by K P SASI the screening will be followed by discussion initiated by T. Peter, President KSMTF & Secretary NFF and Gilbert, Tamilnadu, Pondicherry Fisherpeople's Forum/National Campaign against CMZ Venue: Muktadhara, 18-19 Bhai Veer Singh Marg, Gole Market New Delhi-110001, Phone: 2332 7431 Time : 6 pm, Date: September 25, 2007 All are Cordially Invited. Ramendra Kumar Convener, INSAF Delhi Phone: 28031935, E-mail: delhidss at gmail.com For further information: Shree Prakash, INSAF Secretariat, Tel: 26517814, Mobile: 9871880686 or www.keralafishworkers.org, www.alakal.org, www.visualsearch.org http://www.petitiononline.com/cmz/petition.html SYNOPSIS OF THE FILM: More than 250 million people inhabit India's coastline. Among them are the fishing communities, directly dependent for a living on marine and coastal natural resources. Today, both coastal ecosystems as well as the customary rights of fishing communities over coastal areas are severely eroded by developmental activities and market interests - tourism, industrialization, sand mining, infrastructure-building, aquaculture and rapid urbanization. The only piece of legislation ever enacted to regulate developmental activities along the Indian coast was the Coastal Regulation Zone (CRZ) Notification of 1991. Not surprisingly, in today's age of globalization, the CRZ Notification is increasingly being regarded as an impediment to free market. Moves are afoot to dispense with it altogether. What are the implications of such a deregulation agenda? Who benefits? Who loses? Who's accountable? Who is to blame? "Resisting the Coastal Invasion" is a 52-minute documentary directed by KP Sasi that explores these questions. It captures the struggles of fishing communities who are fighting tooth and nail against the takeover of their lands by the forces of globalization. ----------------------------------------- From sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 23 21:19:49 2007 From: sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk (sabitha t p) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 16:49:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] FWD: MSU situation update Message-ID: <298281.78191.qm@web25414.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> 21st September 2007 Dear Friends, I am attaching herewith a report prepared by my colleagues on the current state of affairs in the Faculty of Fine Arts, MSU Baroda. We are extremely thankful to all who supported us in the past months, and hope that the same will continue to remain. Please feel free to forward the report to anyone you think will be interested, and whom I have not been able include. Sincerely Shivaji. Current State of Affairs: Faculty of Fine Arts, MSU Baroda · On the 13th July Governor appointed a fact finding committee to look into the events in the Faculty of Fine Arts, MS University of Baroda, from 9th May ’07, with Convener Prof. Y.K. Alagh (Chairman, IRMA, Anand, Gujarat), and members Dr. Sudarshan Iyengar (Vice Chancellor, Gujarat Vidya Pith, Ahemedabad) and Mr. Haku Shah (Artist-Art Critic, Ahemedabad). They met a large number of staff and students of the Faculty of Fine Arts, ACUA Members and others and have collected all the necessary evidences and the report is awaited anytime now. The MS University authorities remained adamant, and do not consider Honorable Governor’s Committee legitimate, and hence no depositions were given. The committee was even denied a space or assistance within the University campus! · At the moment no one has any clue as to what exactly the Governor is going to do on the basis of the report and how the University is going to resist or challenge Governor’s decisions and what would be the repercussions of these on the Faculty of Fine Arts. · Respecting Governor’s Fact Finding Committee the staff and students called off active agitation by mid July ’07 and since then Faculty of Fine Arts was limping back to unstable normalcy; it has declared last year’s results, conducted entrance tests for BVA and MVA and admitted students for the new academic year of 2007-08. · On the 27th July ’07 the MSU Syndicate resolved to keep Prof. Shivaji K Panikkar under suspension indefinitely till further orders. · On the 24th Aug. ’07 MSU Syndicate decided to terminate Prof. Shivaji K Panikkar from the job. However the decision remained valid only for 4 hours. The decision was based on University’s inquiry committee report, which was submitted to the Syndicate in the same meeting. Predictably the report is full of lies, infested with manipulated depositions, evidences, malicious allegations and male-fide intentions. The MS University had already filed a caveat Gujarat University Tribunal, Ahemedabad, four hours before the table-agenda of termination was tabled in the Syndicate. After coming to know about the content of Prof. Panikker’s petition which was to be filed pleading for a stay order from the Tribunal against termination and also due to the effective intervention and dissent of Dr. I I Pandya, the sole non-saffron member in the University Syndicate, the same Syndicate reverted back to the earlier indefinite suspension, while also deciding on a new plan of instituting a departmental/disciplinary inquiry against Prof. Panikkar. · As per the Syndicate the decision on the 24th Aug. ’07 a disciplinary inquiry and charge sheet is also due to 5 other colleagues of Prof. Panikkar – Mr. Jayaram Poduval, Mr. Santhosh.S., Ms Abha Sheth, Mr. Jayakumar Reddy and Mr. Iftikhar Ahmed. · Moreover, the 24th Aug. ’07 Syndicate also decided to constitute a committee to supervise the Faculty of Fine Art’s functioning, especially all the exhibitions. · While challenging the suspension of Prof. Shivaji K Panikkar is soon going to be filed in the court, the hearing of the criminal case against Chandra Mohan’s is still pending in the Baroda sessions court –the charge sheet is still being awaited. His result is withheld and remains deeply affected by the situation. · The sections of staff and students who had withdrawn active agitation after Governor appointed his committee, are now terribly frustrated. With no temporary lecturers appointed (three of the Art History lecturers are not appointed, two of whom along with one permanent staff member are awaiting charge sheets for supporting the agitation). With Prof. Shivaji K Panikkar also unable to teach only a very few Art History classes are being conducted. A few classes were being pushed down up on the students by some ill equipped PhD students. The students remain terribly frustrated and have already resorted to boycotting classes since over two weeks by now. · Due to the illegal use of power, negligence of responsibilities, manipulations and deliberate harassments and victimization motivated by political intentions by the MS University authorities supported by the state government, the life and career of several staff members particularly of Prof. Panikkar and colleagues, and of the entire Faculty of Fine Arts and of several student’s future are in great danger. · The research work of Prof. Panikkar is suffering gravely since his documents and research data is locked-up in the Department of Art History and Aesthetics, where he is denied entry since over the last four months. The University authorities have lent only deaf ears to his repeated requests and pleadings to allow him to use the library, visual archive and other documentary facilities. · Possibly, all will agree that as the Head of the Department, Prof. Panikkar was the leading spirit of the Department in the past several years, and through his and his colleague’s visionary initiatives several new avenues and reputation of Art History as a discipline with radical potential had opened up, all of which remain stranded and disbanded in the current political scenario. · Several research projects supported by UGC and other funding agencies also remain stalled. One of such ambitious projects initiated by Prof. Panikkar was of digitizing the large collection of visual and other data in the Regional Documentation Center, which remains unfulfilled. · A grant of over Rs. 84 lakh from Sir Ratan Tata Trust for three years was granted to the Department of Art History and Aesthetics in the month of April ’07 with Prof. Panikkar was named as the Coordinator, and was to be implemented starting from the current financial year. This too remains marooned. · Major plans of publishing the last four year’s national seminars are also facing set-back. The grant received for a specialized quarterly critical art history electronic journal for the coming three years also remain as an unfulfilled dream today. Similarly, due the illegal suspension of Prof. Panikkar library grants worth Rs. 15 lakhs for the Faculty of Fine Arts Library remain unusable. · Sanctioned grants and plans for national and international conferences which were scheduled in the coming three years too remain threatened. · Sanctioned grants and scheduled plans for Guest and Visiting Faculty too remain cancelled. · The above condition is a result of the University’s apathy towards new and adventurous academic directions and it also indicates the nature of University’s reactionary politics, and the deliberate political vengeance of the right wing of the MS University authorities to the people thinking in revolutionary and progressive directions in their respective disciplines. The attitude and decisions of the University authorities are major institutional losses and deeply harm the Faculty of Fine Arts as a whole and Art History Department in particular in their democratic beliefs and right to protest and mark any point of dissent. Personally the future of a number of committed academician’s careers is in terrible jeopardy. · The above situation has also brought out a life situation to all who are thinking in progressive terms, the reality of fascist threats and physical attacks; the lives of those who protested the MSU authorities are under surveillance. The students and teachers who raised voice of dissent and disagreement to the MSU authorities live in fear of them being physically assaulted and attacked. Several instances of false police cases against innocent supporters of the cause and on a day to day basis they all are being subjected to mental torture and harassments. We live with the fear of danger which hides in every nook and corner of the city of Baroda and the state of Gujarat, which do not even allow us to move freely in this place. Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. To know how, go to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html From pkray11 at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 22:35:06 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 22:35:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seminar on Indo-US Nuclear Deal Message-ID: <98f331e00709231005o66e28312i234924272a6a7696@mail.gmail.com> DELHI MEDIA CENTRE FOR RESEARCH & PUBLICATIONS DELHI UNION OF JOURNALISTS & the COMMITTEE FOR DEMOCRACY AND SOVEREIGNTY Invites You For a SEMINAR and BOOK RELEASE Function On TUESDAY SEPTEMBER 25 From 4PM TO 6PM at COMMITTEE ROOM ONE (near the Rock Gardens) INDIA INTERNATIONAL CENTRE NEW DELHI. THE SEMINAR IS ON: INDIA-US CIVILIAN NUCLEAR ENERGY AGREEMENT: IS INDIAN SOVEREIGNTY IN DANGER? Distinguished panelists include: M.J.AKBAR, Editor-in-Chief, Asian Age, RAJIV SIKRI, former Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs, S.P.SHUKLA, former Finance Secretary. The Book being released by the DELHI MEDIA CENTRE is its first publication 'INDO-US NUCLEAR DEAL: A FIRST REFERENCE COMPILATION edited by senior journalist S.K.PANDE KINDLY DO FIND THE TIME TO ATTEND, AND PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSION. Thanking you, S.K.PANDE (On behalf of the organizers) From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 07:40:13 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 07:40:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Action Alert: CONDEMN KILLINGS!! CONDEMN COMMUNALISATION OF SETHUSAMUDRAM PROJECT!! Message-ID: <46F71C85.8070702@gmail.com> ear Friends, Please Endorse the statement within 24th September Midnight by sending a mail at css at movingrepublic.org ~ Regards Anivar Aravind For Coastal struggle Solidarity CONDEMN KILLINGS!! CONDEMN COMMUNALISATION OF SETHUSAMUDRAM PROJECT!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We, the undersigned civil society groups, people's movements, human rights organisations and concerned individuals condemn the killings of innocent people and destruction of public property by Hindutva-inspired communal forces recently. A mob, now identified as members of Sangh Parivar organizations, attacked a Tamil Nadu public transport bus in Bangalore recently and burned down the vehicle that was carrying 26 passengers. Two passengers were killed and their bodies were charred beyond recognition. This attack was a part of conscious and systematic efforts of the religious fundamentalist forces to undermine the real issues concerning Sethusamudram Project and to make political capital by flaring up the emotions of the people and dividing them on religious and provincial lines. The Sethusamudram Project was introduced by the BJP while they were in power at the centre without considering the ecological and human problems. The Sethusamudram Project will endanger a rich biosphere reserve with 400 endangered species, including sea turtles, dolphins, dugongs and whales. The project will destroy the livelihood of 15 Lakh people who depend on fishing and allied areas in the waters where the canal will be dug. Several fisher people's organisations and human rights groups had protested against the project for a long time without getting any recognition from the mainstream political parties. Today the effort by the communal-fundamentalist forces is to divert the real issues concerning the project and generate political gain in view of the forthcoming elections. We feel that there is an immediate need to stop any further violence & communalisation of this issue. Hence we call upon all secular forces and social movements to take a strong stand to condemn these efforts of communal forces and recognise the real struggles of fisher people. We call upon the civil society to support the fisher people's struggles to protect the coast from all destructive developmental projects including Sethusamudram project The Undersigned 1.Just. H. Suresh, Formal Judge, High court Mumbai 2.Praful Bidwai, Journalist & Writer 3.Arundhati Roy, Activist, Writer 4.Vinod Raina, BGVS, New Delhi 5.Gabriele Dietrich, NAPM 6.Prasad Chacko, Action Aid 7.Shripad Dharamadhikary, Mandhan 8.Bruce Rich, Environmental Defense 9.Dunu Roy , Hazards Centre 10.Kamala Bhasin, SANGAT, New Delhi 11.T.Peter, President KSMTF & Secretary, NFF 12.Gilbert, Tamil Nadu – Pondicherry Fisher people's Forum 13.Anton Gomus, National Union of Fisherpeople 14.Madhumitha Dutta, Corporate Accountability Desk 15.Nityanand Jayaraman, Corporate Accountability desk 16.R. Mangaiyarselvam, Founder, Meenavar Viduthalai Vengaigal (Fisherpeople Liberation Tigers) 17.V. Gowrilingam, President, Kancheepuram District Fisher people Federation, 18.Dr. M. E. Raja, Ph D, General Secretary, National Union of Fishermen, 19.J. Kosumani, President, Tamilnadu Fisherpeople Progressive Assoociation, 20.K. Bharathi, President, South Indian Fishermen's Welfare Association, 21.B. Maran, President, Tamilnadu Fisher People Movement. 22. Anivar Aravind, moving Republic, Kerala 23. Wilfred D'Costa, INSAF 24.Benny Kuruvia, FOCUS on Global South Mumbai 25.Mohaji BHAP, Chandigad 26.Jacob Nellithanam, Richaria Campaign 27.Mahendra Kumar Rauson, NCDHR, Bihar 28.K.P. Sasi, Visual Search 29.Jai Prakash, PEACE 30.Himanshu Upadhyaya, Intercultural Resources 31.P.T. George, Intercultural Resources 32.Abhishek Srivastava, Freelance Journalist 33.Navin Kumar, Star News 34.Lalit Batra, researcher 35. Hitendra, Human Rights Law Network 36.Amarjit Singh, 37.S. Majumdar, HRLN 38.Nandini Oza , Manthan, Badwani 39.Praveen, Delhi University 40.Anja K , Researcher 41.Geetanjali, NBA 42.Supriya , DU 43.Ankitha, DU student 44.Amit , JNU student 45.Harsh Dobhal , Combat law 46.Renu Khanna , PUCL, Baroda 47.Debaranjan, PSSP, Kashipur 48.J.John, Centre for Education & Communication, New Delhi 49.Badar, PEACE, Delhi 50.Surekha, HRLN 51.Andrea Wright, TISS.MADS 52.Lalhlieupuii , JNU student 53.Lalrindiki , Student, Mizoram 54. Nima Lamu Yolmo, JNU student, Darjeling 55.Preeti, Activist 56.Rajesh rangarajan, Activist 57.Vidya Rangan, Activist 58.Sunayana JNU student 59.Simpreet Singh, NAPM 60.Sheena kanwar, Activist 61.Swastika Sanghmithra, Activist 62.Subir Dey , JNU Student 63.Kasturi Sharma, JNU Student 64.Shrikanth , HRLN 65.S. Hussaini, IT consultant 66.Sanja Sharma, HRLN 67.Sarojini, Samad 68.Ritwik 69.Anshu Malviya, poet, Activist, UP 70.Grace Pelly, HRLN 71.HR Hiramat, NCPNR, Karnataka 72.Smriti, HRLN 73.E.P Menon, IDF , Bangalore 74.Pradeep Kumar, SVP, UP 75.Jharna Jhavera, Janmadhyam 76.Aruna roy 77.Mihir Engineer , BOSS institute Kolkotta, 78.Sulak Sivaraksa, SEM, Tailand 79.Irfan Ahmed, Lokmach, Insaf 80.Kousal K, Activist Bihar, 81.Binod Tyagi, Lok Manch, Bihar 82.Rakesh, PEACE 83.Jitendra C, PEACE 84.Anant Deo N, INSAF Bihar 85.Ganesh Prasad, INSAF, UP 86.Ranjeet Kumar Singh, PUCE, INSAF, UP 87.Chittaranjan Singh, PUCL, INSAF, UP 88.Raghavendra kumar Advocate MP 89.Jithendra Kumar, Journalist 90.Umpiliha DSW 91.Mohan Rao, JNU 92.Beena, SAMA 93.Sarojini, SAMA 94.Riwik, SAMA 95.Pakhi, SAMA 96.Jacqulin J, NAPM 97.Deepa Naveen, Activist 98.Swathi Mukharji, JMIICR 99.Mallika Virdi MAATI, Utharghand 100.Jasamia Sarma, Student -- Anivar Aravind http://anivar.movingrepublic.org/about From image.science at donau-uni.ac.at Mon Sep 24 15:26:31 2007 From: image.science at donau-uni.ac.at (Image Science) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:56:31 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] STIP: SCHOLARSHIPS IN THE FIELD OF IMAGE SCIENCE & MEDIA.ART.HISTORIES Message-ID: <46F7A5EF0200007D0000409B@gwgwia.donau-uni.ac.at> SCHOLARSHIPS IN THE FIELD OF IMAGE SCIENCE & MEDIA.ART.HISTORIES The Department for Image Science is pleased to announce two scholarships covering half-tuition for the course starting in Nov. 2007! > Goettweig Scholarship for MediaArtArchiving: This scholarship supports artists and scientists, who are interested in the field of media art history. Especially welcome are applicants, who want to deal with aesthetic and documentary aspects in relation with the phenomenon of interaction and its connection to media art and its history. Closing date for submission: Oct 10th, 2007. > Rudolf Arnheim Scholarship: The Department for Image Science considers this scholarship as possibility to deal as regards content with the scientific work of the recently deceased art historian and cognition psychologist Rudolf Arnheim and his meaning for Image Science. Closing date for submission: Oct 10th, 2007. Further Information: http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/en/studium/medienkunstgeschichte/09158/index.php www.virtualart.at www.mediaarthistories.org => FIRST INTERNATIONAL MASTER OF MEDIA.ART.HISTORIES (Low residency; English language) The postgraduate program MediaArtHistories conveys the most important developments of contemporary art through a network of renowned international theorists, artists and curators like: Steve DIETZ, Erkki HUHTAMO, Lev MANOVICH, Christiane PAUL, Paul SERMON, Edward SHANKEN, Gerfried STOCKER, Jens HAUSER, Oliver GRAU and many others. Artists and programmers give new insights into the latest and most controversial software, interface developments and their interdisciplinary and intercultural praxis. Keywords are: Strategies of Interaction & Interface Design, Social Software, Immersion & Emotion and Artistic Invention. Using online databases and other modern aids, knowledge of computer animation, net art, interactive, telematic and genetic art as well as the most recent reflections on nano art, CAVE installations, augmented reality and wearables are introduced. Historical derivations that go far back into art and media history are tied in intriguing ways to digital art. Important approaches and methods from Image Science, Media Archaeology and the History of Science & Technology will be discussed. => DANUBE UNIVERSITY KREMS – located in the UNESCO world heritage Wachau is the first public university in Europe which specializes in advanced continuing education offering low-residency degree programs for working professionals and lifelong learners. With its new modular courses the DEPARTMENT FOR IMAGE SCIENCE at Danube University Krems offers an educational program unique in Europe. Without interrupting the career students have the opportunity to learn through direct, hands-on experience, social learning in small groups and contacts with labs and industry. They gain key qualifications for the contemporary art and media marketplace. The Center in Monastery Göttweig, where most MediaArtHistories courses take place, is housed in a 14th century building, remodeled to fit the needs of modern research in singular surroundings. International experts analyze the image worlds of art, science, politics and economy and elucidate how they originated, became established and how they have stood the test of time. The innovative approach at the Department for Image Science is reinforced by praxis-oriented study. Contact: Sabine Lindner Department for Image Science Danube University Krems Dr.-Karl-Dorrek-Str. 30, A-3500 Krems Tel: +43(0)2732 893-2569 sabine.lindner at donau-uni.ac.at www.donau-uni.ac.at/dis From amitabh at sarai.net Mon Sep 24 16:09:59 2007 From: amitabh at sarai.net (Amitabh Kumar) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:09:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Update from Baroda... Message-ID: Dear Friends, I am attaching herewith a report prepared by my colleagues on the current state of affairs in the Faculty of Fine Arts, MSU Baroda. We are extremely thankful to all who supported us in the past months, and hope that the same will continue to remain. Please feel free to forward the report to anyone you think will be interested, and whom I have not been able include. Sincerely Shivaji. Current State of Affairs: Faculty of Fine Arts, MSU Baroda · On the 13th July Governor appointed a fact finding committee to look into the events in the Faculty of Fine Arts, MS University of Baroda, from 9th May ’07, with Convener Prof. Y.K. Alagh (Chairman, IRMA, Anand, Gujarat), and members Dr. Sudarshan Iyengar (Vice Chancellor, Gujarat Vidya Pith, Ahemedabad) and Mr. Haku Shah (Artist-Art Critic, Ahemedabad). They met a large number of staff and students of the Faculty of Fine Arts, ACUA Members and others and have collected all the necessary evidences and the report is awaited anytime now. The MS University authorities remained adamant, and do not consider Honorable Governor’s Committee legitimate, and hence no depositions were given. The committee was even denied a space or assistance within the University campus! · At the moment no one has any clue as to what exactly the Governor is going to do on the basis of the report and how the University is going to resist or challenge Governor’s decisions and what would be the repercussions of these on the Faculty of Fine Arts. · Respecting Governor’s Fact Finding Committee the staff and students called off active agitation by mid July ’07 and since then Faculty of Fine Arts was limping back to unstable normalcy; it has declared last year’s results, conducted entrance tests for BVA and MVA and admitted students for the new academic year of 2007-08. · On the 27th July ’07 the MSU Syndicate resolved to keep Prof. Shivaji K Panikkar under suspension indefinitely till further orders. · On the 24th Aug. ’07 MSU Syndicate decided to terminate Prof. Shivaji K Panikkar from the job. However the decision remained valid only for 4 hours. The decision was based on University’s inquiry committee report, which was submitted to the Syndicate in the same meeting. Predictably the report is full of lies, infested with manipulated depositions, evidences, malicious allegations and male-fide intentions. The MS University had already filed a caveat Gujarat University Tribunal, Ahemedabad, four hours before the table-agenda of termination was tabled in the Syndicate. After coming to know about the content of Prof. Panikker’s petition which was to be filed pleading for a stay order from the Tribunal against termination and also due to the effective intervention and dissent of Dr. I I Pandya, the sole non-saffron member in the University Syndicate, the same Syndicate reverted back to the earlier indefinite suspension, while also deciding on a new plan of instituting a departmental/disciplinary inquiry against Prof. Panikkar. · As per the Syndicate the decision on the 24th Aug. ’07 a disciplinary inquiry and charge sheet is also due to 5 other colleagues of Prof. Panikkar – Mr. Jayaram Poduval, Mr. Santhosh.S., Ms Abha Sheth, Mr. Jayakumar Reddy and Mr. Iftikhar Ahmed. · Moreover, the 24th Aug. ’07 Syndicate also decided to constitute a committee to supervise the Faculty of Fine Art’s functioning, especially all the exhibitions. · While challenging the suspension of Prof. Shivaji K Panikkar is soon going to be filed in the court, the hearing of the criminal case against Chandra Mohan’s is still pending in the Baroda sessions court –the charge sheet is still being awaited. His result is withheld and remains deeply affected by the situation. · The sections of staff and students who had withdrawn active agitation after Governor appointed his committee, are now terribly frustrated. With no temporary lecturers appointed (three of the Art History lecturers are not appointed, two of whom along with one permanent staff member are awaiting charge sheets for supporting the agitation). With Prof. Shivaji K Panikkar also unable to teach only a very few Art History classes are being conducted. A few classes were being pushed down up on the students by some ill equipped PhD students. The students remain terribly frustrated and have already resorted to boycotting classes since over two weeks by now. · Due to the illegal use of power, negligence of responsibilities, manipulations and deliberate harassments and victimization motivated by political intentions by the MS University authorities supported by the state government, the life and career of several staff members particularly of Prof. Panikkar and colleagues, and of the entire Faculty of Fine Arts and of several student’s future are in great danger. · The research work of Prof. Panikkar is suffering gravely since his documents and research data is locked-up in the Department of Art History and Aesthetics, where he is denied entry since over the last four months. The University authorities have lent only deaf ears to his repeated requests and pleadings to allow him to use the library, visual archive and other documentary facilities. · Possibly, all will agree that as the Head of the Department, Prof. Panikkar was the leading spirit of the Department in the past several years, and through his and his colleague’s visionary initiatives several new avenues and reputation of Art History as a discipline with radical potential had opened up, all of which remain stranded and disbanded in the current political scenario. · Several research projects supported by UGC and other funding agencies also remain stalled. One of such ambitious projects initiated by Prof. Panikkar was of digitizing the large collection of visual and other data in the Regional Documentation Center, which remains unfulfilled. · A grant of over Rs. 84 lakh from Sir Ratan Tata Trust for three years was granted to the Department of Art History and Aesthetics in the month of April ’07 with Prof. Panikkar was named as the Coordinator, and was to be implemented starting from the current financial year. This too remains marooned. · Major plans of publishing the last four year’s national seminars are also facing set-back. The grant received for a specialized quarterly critical art history electronic journal for the coming three years also remain as an unfulfilled dream today. Similarly, due the illegal suspension of Prof. Panikkar library grants worth Rs. 15 lakhs for the Faculty of Fine Arts Library remain unusable. · Sanctioned grants and plans for national and international conferences which were scheduled in the coming three years too remain threatened. · Sanctioned grants and scheduled plans for Guest and Visiting Faculty too remain cancelled. · The above condition is a result of the University’s apathy towards new and adventurous academic directions and it also indicates the nature of University’s reactionary politics, and the deliberate political vengeance of the right wing of the MS University authorities to the people thinking in revolutionary and progressive directions in their respective disciplines. The attitude and decisions of the University authorities are major institutional losses and deeply harm the Faculty of Fine Arts as a whole and Art History Department in particular in their democratic beliefs and right to protest and mark any point of dissent. Personally the future of a number of committed academician’s careers is in terrible jeopardy. · The above situation has also brought out a life situation to all who are thinking in progressive terms, the reality of fascist threats and physical attacks; the lives of those who protested the MSU authorities are under surveillance. The students and teachers who raised voice of dissent and disagreement to the MSU authorities live in fear of them being physically assaulted and attacked. Several instances of false police cases against innocent supporters of the cause and on a day to day basis they all are being subjected to mental torture and harassments. We live with the fear of danger which hides in every nook and corner of the city of Baroda and the state of Gujarat, which do not even allow us to move freely in this place. From sudeshna.kca at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 16:17:44 2007 From: sudeshna.kca at gmail.com (Sudeshna Chatterjee) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:17:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JNNURM fund for community groups Message-ID: <3ef603b70709240347w4ffbba7dsbbdcb2de4f960fc1@mail.gmail.com> Under JNNURM now, a fund you can use to fill a gap in local infrastructure Express news service Posted online: Saturday , September 22, 2007 at 12:00:00 Updated: Saturday , September 22, 2007 at 01:35:13Print Email To Editor *Mumbai, September 21 * Soon, Mumbaiites won't have to wait for corporators, MLAs or MPs to offer parts of their local area development funds when a local vegetable market has to be repaired or a public toilet constructed. Local community-based organizations (CBOs) will now be able to directly apply to the Central government for funds. Cutting down the bureaucracy and red-tapism associated with government functioning and in order to hand over power to citizens who wish to participate, the Centre will now provide funds to community based organizations in a move to encourage community participation in creation of civic amenities. Under the Centre's Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission's (JNNURM) Community Participation Fund, CBOs will be given funds up to Rs 10 lakh to implement civic, social and community programmes and projects. Corporator Adolf D'Souza's Nagrik Satta (People's Power) Ward 63 Association has show an interest in the scheme. D'Souza, a long-time civic activist who contested and won the civic election as an independent with astounding support in the Juhu area, said his ward has been divided into 37 units—to be called Area Sabhas—and that citizens have already planned three projects to be implemented under the Community Participation Fund. "This is a really good policy as people can demand what they want. People should get what they want and not what the BMC or the politicians want to give," he said. Before undertaking a project, the CBO must get the consent of 51 per cent of the voters of the area's polling booth. Consent will be for the project as well as for the implementing agency. And projects must be completed within six months to 12 months, with the CBO contributing 10 per cent of the cost, or 5 per cent if the project is a service for the urban poor. Additional Municipal Commissioner (projects) Manu Kumar Srivastava said: "Fortunately, Mumbai has a large number of CBOs and therefore a lot of work under the Community Participation Fund will be implemented in the city," he said. He added that people do not have to wait till their request file moves and gets sanctioned, a "true empowerment" for citizens. Once CBOs apply to the Centre, funds will be released after a project appraisal committee reviews the project formulation. During implementation too, appraisals continue and funds will be released in phases. CBOs can undertake various projects—a group water distribution project for a slum, crèches for children of working mothers, local vegetable markets, hawking zone infrastructure, systems to improving traffic and safety conditions around schools, special centres for the elderly and multi-purpose community centres. They can also use the fund for educating the community or spreading awareness about civic or social issues. Booklets, broadcasting, sharing of information can be published and displayed for the empowerment of communities. -- Sudeshna Chatterjee, PhD New Delhi, India From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 00:16:19 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 00:16:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] from KASHMIR: posting Message-ID: <47e122a70709241146x575dca41pc642d3214e83c18c@mail.gmail.com> dear all please click the blog for few images and poem pieces FROM KaSHMIR ( kasheer ) http://indersalim.livejournal.com From info at contemporaryart-india.com Tue Sep 25 12:28:09 2007 From: info at contemporaryart-india.com (info at contemporaryart-india.com) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 02:58:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Invitation to "Earth on Canvas - Art Campaigns for Conservation" Message-ID: <1304.202.88.216.148.1190703489.squirrel@www.contemporaryart-india.com> Hi Sarai List Members, I'm writing to tell you about the new art show, which ContemporaryArt-India are presenting in Delhi, in association with WWF-India. "Earth on Canvas – Art Campaigns for Conservation" documents the perception of 81 artists, to the environmental crises the world faces today....big names, the emergent, the collectors' favourites – we have an eclectic collection of paintings and sculptures.... more details are in the attached pre-invite... "Earth on Canvas – Art Campaigns for Conservation" will be on view - Dates: 30th September 2007 – 7th October, 2007 Time: 10 am – 7.00 pm Venue: WWF-India Secretariat, 172-B, Lodhi Estate, New Delhi 110003. Contact Nos: ContemporaryArt-India: (0)9433090437/ WWF-India: (11) 41504809/41504831 We need the message of this show to hit as far and wide as possible. Please visit us if you're in Delhi and bring a friend. And forward this mail to all your art-buying friends. Thanks for your help & support, Best, Roshmi Roshmi Raychaudhuri & Baidehi Chatterjee www.contemporaryart-india.com From nisha2004 at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 13:01:01 2007 From: nisha2004 at gmail.com (Nisha .) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:01:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Volunteer Opportunity for a Journalist in Yemen Message-ID: <299c77840709250031w232ff07el5cdc94c1b3c92095@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Yemen Times, one of the laregest English newspapers of the Middle East and the largetst in Yemen needs a volunteer jounalist for up to 48 hours a week for 12 months. The volunteer should have very good language skills in English in addition to reporting, writing, proofing and editing skills. The volunteer should have at least 3 years of experience as a reporter or an editor. Yemen Times has to keep itself going on a tight budget and in difficult political environment. The volunteer journalist will be expected to do all kinds of jobs and get things done by others, sometimes in very challenging settings. Yemen Times will provide an accommodation at Sabri's Institute where the volunteer journalist will also get to attend Arabic classes. In addition the Yemen times will pay USD 600 per month to cover monthly expenses and airfare to and from home. Interested people should send their CVs by 10 October 2007 to: editor at yementimes.com Kindly forward this mail to those who you feel may be interested. Thanks. nisha From elkamath at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 23:03:37 2007 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Hidden Successes: International Competition for Best Research Paper on India's Urbanization Message-ID: <680644.65357.qm@web53611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> FYI Dear Colleagues, I am writing to tell you that MIT and the Institute for Financial Management and Research (IFMR), Chennai are jointly organizing an international competition for the best research paper on innovative responses to India 's urban challenges. The competition, titled Hidden Successes, seeks to highlight usually overlooked cases of innovation and success in response to rapid urbanization. Hidden Successes is an opportunity for scholars and practitioners to reflect on innovative financial and institutional arrangements that have allowed some Indian cities to cope with rapid expansion and population growth. Much of the published literature on India ’s urbanization focuses on the many constraints faced by local authorities and the central government. In contrast, this competition seeks to discover where urban areas have succeeded, for example, in delivering infrastructure and essential services, in spite of constraints. The competition anticipates that the crafting and implementation of new approaches to planning will require planners who are not confined by orthodox theories and ideological biases. The cultivation of such a new heterodox mindset requires new teaching material for professional education, which is the ultimate purpose of this competition. We would be grateful if you could publicize this competition announcement as widely as possible. The deadlines for the competition are 15th October 2007 (for Abstract Submission) and 1st December 2007 (for the Final Paper). Details about the competition and submission guidelines can be found on the competition website: http://hidden-successes.mit.edu/. Regards and best wishes, Bish Sanyal MIT Faculty Chair Ford International Professor of Urban Development and Planning Department of Urban Studies and Planning Massachusetts Institute of Technology 77 Massachusetts Avenue , Room 9-435 Cambridge , MA 02139 Phone: 617-253-3270 E-mail: SANYAL at MIT.EDU ____________________________________________________________________________________ Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 10:42:45 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:42:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sethusamudram: Can Sri Lanka Speak? : TT Sreekumar Message-ID: <46F9EA4D.8000401@gmail.com> Sreekumar argues for the need for taking a ‘south asian’ perspective discarding the indo-centric approach & Economic Nationalism. Anivar Sethusamudram: Can Sri Lanka Speak? By Dr. T T Sreekumar 25 September, 2007 http://www.countercurrents.org/sreekumar250907.htm One of the important issues in the Sethusamudram debates is the near total obliteration of the Sri Lankan perspective(s) by the Indian Media. Understanding the Sri Lankan perspective(s) is critical for two reasons. First, it is more than evident that the canal will be in India but its impacts would cross Indian territories with the suspended sediments and dredged toxins affecting the bio-domains surrounding Sri Lanka. Second, given the shared concerns of food security, arms race, unresolved national struggles (Elam, Kashmir etc.) and continuing sectarian social conflicts in the region, an India-centric view on bilateral and multilateral issues such as defence, environment, foreign policy and economic growth is politically inadequate. To develop and uphold a larger South Asian perspective on the Sethusamudram project appears to be as critical as the need for such a position on the India-US nuclear deal. Both issues have some striking similarities. The Indo-US 123 deal would culminate in an increased mutual distrust between Pakistan and India, inducing unprecedented escalation of defence expenditures in both countries in particular and South Asia in general resulting in further State withdrawal from public investments and infrastructure projects leading to increased rural unemployment, marginalization and pushing food insecurity along threatening boarders. Sethusamudram project has also been similar in its impacts given the strategic, environmental and economic import of its long term impacts for the region. It threatens the livelihood of millions of people and make whole of South India and Sri Lanka vulnerable to natural calamities in unimaginable proportions comparable to that of the sublime terror unleashed by Tsunami waves. The discourses on the Sethusamudram project in India have tended largely to ignore the various views and concerns raised by civil society and media in Sri Lanka. The Indian debates are cantered on an astonishing ignorance and/or indifference about the decade long deliberations on the topic by social, environmental and human rights movements, scientists, writers, intellectuals, artists and fisher communities in Sri Lanka. The movement against Sethusamudram project in Sri Lanka has a history that offers lessons on understanding the potentials and limitations of democratic struggles for right to livelihood in South Asia while pointing to the deepening crevasses between State and civil society in almost every nation and nationality in the subcontinent. The concern about the regional implications of the Indo-US deal is also peripheral to Indian media. It is important to note that the Sri Lankan State appears to have given its nod to the project against the wishes of its people. The ‘official’ position has emerged in the last few years following bilateral discussions, which in many ways resembles Indo-US Nuclear negotiations. The Sri Lankan government, even as late as 2005 has been demanding the establishment of a standing joint mechanism for exchange of information. It wanted to set up a common data base on the hydrodynamic modelling, environmental measures and impact on fisheries resources, fisheries dependent communities and measures to cope with navigational emergencies. The discussions, however, has not led to the achievement of the level of transparency in the implementation of the project as these concerns still remain unsettled. The degree of coercion India might have employed to extract a forced consensus from the Sri Lankan State as US has been trying with Indian State in the 123 deal somehow does not figure prominently in Indian discussions. Political parties including those preach internationalism have been guided primarily by parochialism and self serving patriotism typified in their differential positions on the issues of Sethusamudram and 123 Deal. Reports on the Indian side showing a resolute refusal to address the concerns raised by the various Sri Lankan delegations that visited India during the negotiations have been suppressed. The fact that every single evidence, challenging the economic and environmental viability of the project, has been dismissed by the Indian side and that it has not been subjected to the media criticism it deserves can be seen as an indication of the media complacence (if not compliance) in the hegemonic overdrive that characterizes India’s foreign policy in the region. It is difficult to dismiss as a coincidence that the issues of ‘sea tigers’ and Katchatheevu had always figured prominently in the mainstream media’s imaginative narratives as well as in affirmative technocratic discourses on Sethusamudram project in India. The two meta-narratives in India, the one which wants everyone to view the issue primarily from a national security and/or economic angle and the Hindutwa view which wants to highlight the mythological importance of the Ramsethu as a cause and occasion for consolidating its waning influence have received the maximum attention in the Indian debate. Communalization and ‘nationalization’ of the issue by BJP led NDA and Congress led UPA–CPM alliance respectively has resulted in a highly uneven debate on the issue. The fact is by now clear to observers that Hinduthwa nationalism would morph into an opportunistic economic nationalism while in power and would divorce it while in opposition. This is just one of the interesting crude empirics of fascism, an analysis of which does not necessarily hinge on its inevitable iteration. Hence invoking the genealogy of the project to NDA period to rebuff BJP’s current opposition to the project is only self serving for the ruling UPA-CPM alliance. Fortunately for the ruling alliance, no archives of past CPM position on the NDA initiative appear to be available. Against the grain, I want to believe that the old leadership of that party might have wanted to oppose it on internationalist and environmental principles. Civil society would not necessarily want (or not want) BJP’s support in this struggle. But it certainly would want to oppose the UPA-CPM alliance’s rather hegemonic opportunism as reflected in their differential approach to US Nuclear deal and Sethusamudram project and an aggressive divisive politics of communalization unleashed by the NDA. Indian media taking a broader South Asian perspective in this regard would provide a critical support for the Sri Lankan movement against Sethusamudram canal and deeply challenge the collective hallucinations of the consolidated ‘secular’ Indian response. Dr. T T Sreekumar is Assistant Professor of Communication & New Media Programme at National University of Singapore E-mail: sreekumar at nus.edu.sg , sreekumartt at gmail.com From ajmalkamal at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 15:24:12 2007 From: ajmalkamal at gmail.com (Ajmal Kamal) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 02:54:12 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: A disgraceful book on 1857 Message-ID: <7e6d07440709260254l1d851ddbsc0ddf24098286350@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: C.M. Naim Date: Sep 25, 2007 10:03 PM Subject: A disgraceful book To: I just got a book that is the shittiest piece of scholarship I've seen in recent years. Its subject matter looked so interesting and promising that I got a friend to bring it all the way from India. Now as I read it, I find that each page contains something that gets me seething. After about a 40 minutes of seething I sat down and hammered out the following. For your edification. For circulation to others for their edification. This book should be shredded right away. - --------------------- A DISGRACEFUL BOOK ON 1857 The book has two title pages: one for the English section says, '1857 Revisited: Based on Persian and Urdu Documents,' the other, for the bulkier Urdu section, reads, 'Dastawezat-e Ghadar 1857' [Documents of the Mutiny, 1857]. The editor/compiler is S. M. Azizuddin Husain, who is described on the flap as a Professor of History and the Director of Premchand Archives and Literary Centre at the Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi. It is published by Kanishka Publishers, New Delhi, and sells for Rs. 750. The learned editor has delved into numerous archives—a long list is given by him—and chosen 150 Persian and Urdu documents to put together this book. In doing so, he claims to commemorate the 150th anniversary of the events. I imagine, if asked, Prof. Husain would describe his book as consisting of a detailed introductory essay in Urdu, translated into English for the larger public, followed by 150 selected documents, also translated into English for the general good. It would sound like a most commendable project; unfortunately, it has been executed deplorably. In the introduction, Prof Husain has many axes to grind, and he grinds them well: historians don't know Urdu and Persian; archives are not properly maintained; archivists fail to do the minimum; ICHR ignores its academic mission; Aligarh Muslim University and the Jamia Millia fall short in historical research. To that I say, well and good, for a few of them are my 'axes' too. But then I wait for him to tell me what is the first thing of importance in any anthology: the over-arching or defining purpose behind it. He never bothers with that issue, except to say that he was instructed by a friend to not miss the chance of publishing a book at the 150th anniversary of the events of 1857. He never lays out in any fashion his criteria for the selections he made. The documents reprinted here are in Persian and Urdu. Prof Husain deplores the decline in Urdu and Persian scholarship at Indian universities, but then he himself fails to ensure accurate reproduction of these precious texts. Apparently, careful reading of proofs is not a part of the scholarship he champions. He is, of course, not alone in that regard. Reading most newly published Urdu and Persian books in India is a now painful experience. This book, however, is worse than many. Perhaps I should not blame only the editor for it. I know from my own experience that the people who compose Urdu books on computers do not like to be corrected, and unless one persists they let their errors stand. Exasperated by endless errors of misreading or mistyping, I turned to the English translations and discovered a greater horror. I had assumed it was a bilingual book, containing Urdu and Persian original texts, together with their English translations. I badly was mistaken. The translations are by no means full; they are abridgments and summaries— a fact that Prof. Husain fails to mention in his introduction. Much worse, the translations are often deliberately misleading. One example will suffice, and it occurs on the very first page of the main text (page 33 of Urdu). "Document No. 2: (NAID No. 130-185, 18th April, 1857. Bearing seal (not readable)." A document in Urdu, it is a note sent by Sad (sic) Bakhsh Khan and Buniyad Singh, both Deputy Kotwals, to all the thanedars in the city. Its main text consists of eleven lines, of which only the first three are entirely legible. The rest of the text barely makes sense here and there; mostly it is gibberish. It has been translated as follows: "General Taley Yar Khan visited the Kotwali and directed that an order should be issued to all the Thanedars of the city that during the month of Muharram prohibit the playing of music. Send this order to all to follow the direction." Yes, eleven lines of Urdu have been distilled into two English sentences. But that is not all. Prof. Husain refers to this document in his introduction. His Urdu version gives the date wrong; the English version has the date right, and reads: "Bahadur Shah issued an order dated 18th April, 1857, banning the music during the days of Muharram. Sufis laid the foundation of azadari of Muharram in India during the 13th century and made it a part of Indian society and Culture (sic). Mughal Emperors were having a great regard for ahl-i-bait (family members) of Prophet Muhammed. Bahadur Shah's order for banning the use of music during the days of Muharram shows his respect to (sic) Imam Husain. Bahadur Shah directed the Kotwal of Shahjahanabad to sent the copies of this order to all the thanedars of Shahjahanabad." Anyone who has seen Muharram processions in India knows that drum beating, not to mention other kinds of 'martial' music, is often an integral part of them. The three legible lines of the text clearly say that General Taley Yar Khan, apparently a military man, went to the Kotwali and asked the two deputy kotwals to send a note to all the thanedars, which was done. The thanedars, in their turn, put their names and seals on that paper to indicate that they had received the instructions. The general also gave his reasons. This is what the text says: "You should strongly instruct the thanedars that no music should be allowed to be played during Muharram because it might drown out the sound of the [alarm] bugle and let the enemy [make a surprise attack]." The rest is so badly transcribed that it makes little sense, but at one place it seems to discourage the making of other loud noises too. Obviously, Prof. Azizuddin Husain is so concerned to be politically correct in this '150th year' that he sees no harm in distorting what the document actually says. I saw the book advertised and eagerly asked a student to bring it for me from India where she was visiting briefly. Now I feel ashamed that I put her to all the trouble for a book that cost her 750 rupees but is not worth the price of the paper it is printed on. C. M. Naim, Professor Emeritus University of Chicago - -- Ajmal Kamal City Press Publishing House, Bookshop and Film Club 316 Madina City Mall, Abdullah Haroon Road, Saddar, Karachi 74400, Pakistan. From contemporaryartindia.com at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 18:09:14 2007 From: contemporaryartindia.com at gmail.com (contemporaryart-india .com) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:09:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Invitation to "Earth on Canvas - Art Campaigns for Conservation" Message-ID: <2c22f0470709240539p17a7c1ffq76a54e1c910795e7@mail.gmail.com> Hi Sarai List Members, I'm writing to tell you about the new art show, which ContemporaryArt-India, Kolkata, are presenting in Delhi, in association with WWF-India. *"Earth on Canvas – Art Campaigns for Conservation"* documents the perception of 81 artists, to the environmental crises the world faces today....big names, the emergent, the collectors' favourites – we have an eclectic collection of paintings and sculptures.... more details are in the attached pre-invite... *"Earth on Canvas – Art Campaigns for Conservation"* will be on view - Dates: 30th September 2007 – 7th October, 2007 Time: 10 am – 7.00 pm Venue: WWF-India Secretariat, 172-B, Lodhi Estate, New Delhi 110003. Contact Nos: ContemporaryArt-India: (0)9433090437/ WWF-India: (11) 41504809/41504831 We need the message of this show to hit as far and wide as possible. Please visit us if you're in Delhi and bring a friend. And forward this mail to all your friends. Thanks for your help & support, Best, Roshmi Raychaudhuri Roshmi Raychaudhuri & Baidehi Chatterjee www.contemporaryart-india.com -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From manori at tveap.org Sat Sep 22 11:33:02 2007 From: manori at tveap.org (Manori Wijesekera, TVE Asia Pacific) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 11:33:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] [infosouth] Invitation for UNDP Media Workshop - please apply and/or circulate Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20070922112416.01d10a10@mail.tveap.org> _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mitoo at sarai.net Thu Sep 27 06:37:38 2007 From: mitoo at sarai.net (mitoo das) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:07:38 -1200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] NGOinaBox workshop details Message-ID: <46FB025A.7020301@sarai.net> Dear Friends, This is a call for participants for NGO-in-a-box, a series of workshops aimed at addressing the needs of voluntary sector organisations by providing tailored Free and Open Source Software and training. The workshops are organised by Mahiti.org, Bangalore with the support of Hivos, Netherlands and Tactical Technology Collective, Netherlands. Please visit http://ngoinabox.mahiti.org for more details. The workshops will be held across India over the coming two years. The first one was held in Maharastra and the second one in Karnataka, India. The third one will be held in Orissa. The last one in 2007 is planned in Himachal Pradesh. Dates and details of these events will be notified on the website. DATES NGO-in-a-box, Orissa is a 5 day long workshop, to be held from 29th October to 2 November, 2007. Participants are required to attend the entire event, which means arriving at the venue on or before 29 October and leaving on or after 2 November. The venue will be finalised shortly and communicated to successful applicants. WHO SHOULD ATTEND This is an event for experienced professionals actively working in advocacy NGOs, educational organisations, NGO resource centres, community centres and information dissemination organisations in Western India. Applicants will be chosen to represent organisations addressing a broad cross section of issues. These will include education, environment, health, economic development and rights. Demonstrating that you have worked in one or more of the above areas will make your application stronger. The workshop will cover the following broad thematic areas: Topic 1 - Base Free and Open Source Applications: What to consider when migrating to open source, installation of a Linux operating system, commonly used Office and Internet packages. Topic 2 – Open Publishing: Desktop publishing, image editing, web publishing and collaboration, content management. Topic 3 – Audio Visual: Audio-Video editing and distribution, CD burning and ripping, media capture, audio visual playing tools. Topic 4 - Security: Internet security, passwords, data storage and backup, communication and encryption. All participants should be proficient desktop users of computers and have some past experience of using technology in the voluntary sector. They should have an existing awareness of the concept of Free and Open Source Software. EXPENSES AND SUBSIDIES For selected participants travel expenses by rail or bus to Pune will be reimbursed and local travel from the train / bus station to the venue will be arranged. Meals and accommodation during the workshop will be provided by the organisers. BACKGROUND NGO-in-a-box is a collection of Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) tools selected for use by voluntary sector organisations. The project is an initiative of Tactical Technology Collective, Netherlands. The tools are distributed in downloadable form and as a physical box set of CDs. Several needs oriented editions of NGO-in-a-box aim to provide organisations with software relevant to their requirements. NGO-in-a-box is designed to increase the accessibility of FOSS to non-profit groups in developing and transition countries. The project seeks to firstly increase awareness of FOSS among NGOs in the region, then develop and increase the capacity of key/influential individuals and NGOs in FOSS usage, and finally increase the FOSS user community. The project also seeks to establish a network of NGOs that use FOSS at various levels to exchange skills, experiences and support each other. APPLICATION PROCEDURE Organisations are requested to nominate 2 candidates each - one male and one female. Nominated candidates can apply by sending their responses to the to the questions at the end of this form on or before 5th October, 2007. Applications can be posted in plain text format to ngoinabox at mahiti.org. Application forms are also available on the Mahiti.org website: http://ngoinabox.mahiti.org As the workshop is restricted to a limited number, participants will be chosen on the basis of past work, area of expertise and potential to spread ideas to other NGOs. Selected applicants will be intimated before 12th October, 2007. APPLICATION QUESTIONS QUESTIONS ABOUT YOUR ORGNAISATION Please answer all the following questions. Responses do not need to be long, but please provide us with enough information to understand the main objectives of your organisation and have an overview of its structure and IT usage. We also need to understand the skills and interests of the nominees. Tell us why you want to attend the workshop and how you can contribute to the free software movement. 1. Location (town/city where your organisation is based): 2. Aims of your organisation and the year it was established: 3. Types of activities and projects you are engaged in (please give examples): 4. How many people work in your organisation (part time or full time): Full Time Part Time Women Men 5. Do you belong to an association, umbrella group or network (informal or formal)? If so give a short description? 6. Outline your organisations main activities in which IT is used? 7. What other activities would you like to use IT for? 8. With whom would you most like to improve your communications? (e.g. youth in-country, women in-country, diaspora, other organisations in-country similar to your own, etc.) QUESTIONS ABOUT NOMINEES This section of the questionnaire is repeated twice per organisation - once for a male and once for a female nominee: MALE NOMINEE 9. Basic personal information: a. Name: b. Gender: c. Date of Birth: d. Nationality: f. Organisation: g. E-mail address: h. Telephone and emergency contact number(s): i. Anything else we should know about you (allergies, diet, medical condition, special needs): 10. What kinds of areas / projects and initiatives have you worked on? 11. Current professional affiliation (organisation you work for, mission of the organisation, its focus areas, position you have in the organisation, etc.)? 12. Why are you interested in attending this workshop? What do you hope to learn? 13. Have you been involved with any technology projects? If so please briefly explain them. 14. Do you have any skills that you feel are relevant to this workshop and that you could share with participants? FEMALE NOMINEE 15. Basic personal information: a. Name: b. Gender: c. Date of Birth: d. Nationality: f. Organisation: g. E-mail address: h. Telephone and emergency contact number(s): i. Anything else we should know about you (allergies, diet, medical condition, special needs): 16. What kinds of areas / projects and initiatives have you worked on? 17. Current professional affiliation (organisation you work for, mission of the organisation, its focus areas, position you have in the organisation, etc.)? 18. Why are you interested in attending this workshop? What do you hope to learn? 19. Have you been involved with any technology projects? If so please briefly explain them. 20. Do you have any skills that you feel are relevant to this workshop and that you could share with participants? _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From cahen.x at levels9.com Wed Sep 26 14:42:04 2007 From: cahen.x at levels9.com (xavier cahen) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:12:04 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] ))))) radiolist.org ((((( Plate-forme sonore des arts visuels ))))) | ))))) visual arts noise platform ((((( 12 Message-ID: <46FA2264.7070207@levels9.com> RadioList.org Plate-forme sonore des arts visuels / visual arts noise platform (((((((((.)))))))))) # 12 it's time for your french lesson ! .((((( Abonnement RSS : podcast, ipodder, sage, etc... http://radiolist.org/index.php?feed=rss2 .((((( Abonnement à la newsletter http://radiolist.org Paysage sonore : sur la route de Meknès, Maroc )))))))).(((((((((( Extraits sonores enregistrés l’été 2007 dans le nord du Maroc, évoquant un mode de représentation de la mémoire, du souvenir, du résiduel. Collage sonore où s’entremêle les évènements, sans ordre chronologique et sans autre motif, que la persistance acoustique et la puissance imagée des situations. Emission réalisée par : Xavier Cahen http://www.radiolist.org//?p=166 Divagations 5 : Mémoires 1 – à propos d’« Atlas », de Gerhard Richter )))))))).(((((((((( Ces « divagations » ne sont ni des études savantes – ni même des études, et savantes encore moins – sur des œuvres qui m’ont, à un moment où à un autre, profondément bouleversé. De l’une à l’autre peu de points communs, si ce n’est, peut-être, un principe d’incertitude – tableaux, photos, peintres et photographes connus ou inconnus ne seront pas là tout à fait dans la norme, dans l’échelle, dans l’allure ou dans le goût. Et pour le reste, comme dirait l’autre, on en reparlera. Emission réalisée par : Vincent Gille http://www.radiolist.org//?p=164 Sound & Vision # 3 : Tokyo eyes vs Le voyage à Tokyo )))))))).(((((((((( Un bootleg (parfois appelé mashup ou tout simplement medley) est un détournement musical, l’art de mixer deux chansons pour en faire une troisième. Ici le détournement sonore est cinématographique. Un lieu, un lien. Deux films : une même ville. Ici Tokyo. Emission réalisée par : Pierre Ménard http://www.radiolist.org//?p=155 Art-maniac : Ambition et autres fictions sur l’art )))))))).(((((((((( Avec l’été la bibliothèque ne ferme pas et Radiolist non plus alors… Emission spécial été, pour partir avec de l’art dans les poches et lire à la plage ! 2 mois d’été, huit semaines de vacances donc huit petits romans pour en profitez pour se prélasser avant la rentrée. Voici donc quelques conseils de lectures sur l’art dans la littérature.Nogent-sur-Marne. Emission réalisée par : Fabrice Decamps http://www.radiolist.org//?p=163 Celui qui oublie où mène le chemin #2 )))))))).(((((((((( Celui qui oublie où conduit le chemin’ continue sa marche… bribes finlandaises Il traverse donc un paysage, à pied, en prenant compte de la morphologie de celui-ci, des gens rencontrés, et en étant très soucieux quant à la politique et la société qu’il traverse. ‘Celui qui oublie le chemin’ aime la relation humaine. Emission réalisée par : François Martig http://www.radiolist.org//?p=154 Divagations 4 : Uncommon Places de Stephen Shore )))))))).(((((((((( Ces « divagations » ne sont ni des études savantes – ni même des études, et savantes encore moins – sur des œuvres qui m’ont, à un moment où à un autre, profondément bouleversé. De l’une à l’autre peu de points communs, si ce n’est, peut-être, un principe d’incertitude – tableaux, photos, peintres et photographes connus ou inconnus ne seront pas là tout à fait dans la norme, dans l’échelle, dans l’allure ou dans le goût. Et pour le reste, comme dirait l’autre, on en reparlera. Emission réalisée par : Vincent Gille http://www.radiolist.org//?p=159 Miniatures : miniature_3_mai07 )))))))).(((((((((( Les miniatures ont rarement un titre. Elles sont numérotées dans une série elle-même repérée par un mois et une année … Emission réalisée par : Guillaume Loizillon http://www.radiolist.org//?p=142 Cuisine sonore : la longe de poulain aux prunes )))))))).(((((((((( La cuisine comme un milieu sonore où les enjeux de la cuisine se constituent en même temps que se constitue la cuisine. Emission réalisée par : John Deneuve http://www.radiolist.org//?p=160 Miniatures : miniature_2_mai07 )))))))).(((((((((( Les miniatures ont rarement un titre. Elles sont numérotées dans une série elle-même repérée par un mois et une année … Emission réalisée par : Guillaume Loizillon http://www.radiolist.org//?p=161 Hollywood - #3 Winchester ‘73 )))))))).(((((((((( Hollywood : variations libres au sujet des images mortes et des impressions de leur mouvement. Emission réalisée par : Grégoire Courtois http://www.radiolist.org//?p=157 Miniatures : miniature_1_mai07 )))))))).(((((((((( Les miniatures ont rarement un titre. Elles sont numérotées dans une série elle-même repérée par un mois et une année … Emission réalisée par : Guillaume Loizillon http://www.radiolist.org//?p=151 Conspirations anatomiques - nus sonores : Le pli de l’aine )))))))).(((((((((( On se souvient de cette scène dans Le Mépris où Brigitte Bardot demande à son mari s’il aime, successivement ses pieds, ses chevilles, ses genoux, ses cuisses, ses fesses, ses seins, son visage, ses épaules. Le propos de ses « conspirations anatomiques » serait d’éprouver, par un texte, par un environnement sonore, en somme par une situation suggérée, d’un corps quelques fractions rêvées, hallucinées, aimées, craintes, désirées ou abominées. Emission réalisée par : Benoît Lardières http://www.radiolist.org//?p=156 Hollywood - #2 Last Days )))))))).(((((((((( Hollywood : variations libres au sujet des images mortes et des impressions de leur mouvement. Emission réalisée par : Grégoire Courtois http://www.radiolist.org//?p=153 Sound & Vision # 2 : Le fleuve vs India Song )))))))).(((((((((( Un bootleg (parfois appelé mashup ou tout simplement medley) est un détournement musical, l’art de mixer deux chansons pour en faire une troisième. Ici le détournement sonore est cinématographique. Un lieu, un lien. Deux films : une même ville. Ici Calcutta. Emission réalisée par : Pierre Ménard http://www.radiolist.org//?p=150 -- RadioList.org (((((((.))))))) xavier cahen administrateur xavier.cahen at radiolist.org http://www.radiolist.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From info at kitabmahal.org Mon Sep 24 12:04:47 2007 From: info at kitabmahal.org (Kitabmahal, The Fourth Floor) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:34:47 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Vibrant Strokes art exhibition at Kitab Mahal, Fort from 28th till 3rd October 2007 Message-ID: _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Sep 26 17:06:25 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:06:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "It could have happened the other way round, " the officials maintained. Message-ID: <9c06aab30709260436h3401b619xcbd338a88db82ddf@mail.gmail.com> Modi blind to glory of Pathans Express news service Wednesday, September 26, 2007 at 12:00:00 Vadodara, September 25 http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Modi-blind-to-glory-of-Pathans/221104/ While Indians across the world can't seem to have enough of the Twenty20 World Cup victory at Johannesburg on Monday night, it seems Chief Minister Narendra Modi thinks otherwise. Even as every other state is announcing rewards for its boys in the winning team, the Chief Minister's office has not even bothered to issue a press release in honour of the Vadodara siblings, one of whom walked away with the Man of the Match award in the deciding game. On a day when the governments of Delhi, Haryana, Jharkhand, Karnataka, Uttar Pradesh and Maharashtra announced awards for their boys in the team, the CM remained busy meeting industrialists and MLAs in the Secretariat. His officials maintained that — "There is nothing great about the victory. It could have happened the other way round!" With the Congress party announcing that it would felicitate the Pathan brothers, the Chief Minister keeping mum, might snowball into a political controversy. Congress spokesman Shaktisinh Gohil said that Irfan played a big role in the Indian team's win and he should be lauded in an equally big way. Taking a dig at Modi for his selective praise for achievers, Gohil said that the CM believes that there is no Gujarati bigger than him. "Be it Sunita Williams or Irfan, Modi is never happy. That is why his government did not announce anything for the Pathan brothers. But we will do it for them," he said. Vadodara corporator Nafisa Kapadia has called upon the CM to respond in a positive way. From nicheant at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 26 18:36:28 2007 From: nicheant at yahoo.co.uk (Nishant) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:06:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Scandal in the Palace Message-ID: <68933.5554.qm@web27906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Scandal In The Palace By Arundhati Roy 25 September, 2007 Scandals can be fun. Especially those that knock preachers from their pulpits and flick halos off saintly heads. But some scandals can be corrosive and more damaging for the scandalised than the scandalee. Right now we're in the midst of one such. At its epicentre is Y.K. Sabharwal, former Chief Justice of India, who until recently headed the most powerful institution in this country—the Supreme Court. When there's a scandal about a former chief justice and his tenure in office, it's a little difficult to surgically excise the man and spare the institution. But then commenting adversely on the institution can lead you straight to a prison cell as some of us have learned to our cost. It's like having to take the wolf and the chicken and the sack of grain across the river, one by one. The river's high and the boat's leaking. Wish me luck. The higher judiciary, the Supreme Court in particular, doesn't just uphold the law, it micromanages our lives. Its judgements range through matters great and small. It decides what's good for the environment and what isn't, whether dams should be built, rivers linked, mountains moved, forests felled. It decides what our cities should look like and who has the right to live in them. It decides whether slums should be cleared, streets widened, shops sealed, whether strikes should be allowed, industries should be shut down, relocated or privatised. It decides what goes into school textbooks, what sort of fuel should be used in public transport and schedules of fines for traffic offences. It decides what colour the lights on judges' cars should be (red) and whether they should blink or not (they should). It has become the premier arbiter of public policy in this country that likes to market itself as the World's Largest Democracy. Ironically, judicial activism first rode in on a tide of popular discontent with politicians and their venal ways. Around 1980, the courts opened their doors to ordinary citizens and people's movements seeking justice for underprivileged and marginalised people. This was the beginning of the era of Public Interest Litigation, a brief window of hope and real expectation. While Public Interest Litigation gave people access to courts, it also did the opposite. It gave courts access to people and to issues that had been outside the judiciary's sphere of influence so far. So it could be argued that it was Public Interest Litigation that made the courts as powerful as they are. Over the last 15 years or so, through a series of significant judgements, the judiciary has dramatically enhanced the scope of its own authority. Today, as neo-liberalism sinks its teeth deeper into our lives and imagination, as millions of people are being pauperised and dispossessed in order to keep India's Tryst with Destiny (the unHindu 10% rate of growth), the State has to resort to elaborate methods to contain growing unrest. One of its techniques is to invoke what the middle and upper classes fondly call the Rule of Law. The Rule of Law is a precept that is distinct and can often be far removed from the principle of justice. The Rule of Law is a phrase that derives its meaning from the context in which it operates. It depends on what the laws are and who they're designed to protect. For instance, from the early '90s, we have seen the systematic dismantling of laws that protect workers' rights and the fundamental rights of ordinary people (the right to shelter/health/education/water). International financial institutions like the IMF, the World Bank and the ADB demand these not just as a precondition, but as a condition, set down in black and white, before they agree to sanction loans. (The polite term for it is structural adjustment. ) What does the Rule of Law mean in a situation like this? Howard Zinn, author of A People's History of the United States, puts it beautifully: "The Rule of Law does not do away with unequal distribution of wealth and power, but reinforces that inequality with the authority of law. It allocates wealth and poverty in such indirect and complicated ways as to leave the victim bewildered." As it becomes more and more complicated for elected governments to be seen to be making unpopular decisions (decisions, for example, that displace millions of people from their villages, from their cities, from their jobs), it has increasingly fallen to the courts to make these decisions, to uphold the Rule of Law. The expansion of judicial powers has not been accompanied by an increase in its accountability. Far from it. The judiciary has managed to foil every attempt to put in place any system of checks and balances that other institutions in democracies are usually bound by. It has opposed the suggestion by the Committee for Judicial Accountability that an independent disciplinary body be created to look into matters of judicial misconduct. It has decreed that an FIR cannot be registered against a sitting judge without the consent of the chief justice (which has never ever been given). It has so far successfully insulated itself against the Right to Information Act. The most effective weapon in its arsenal is, of course, the Contempt of Court Act which makes it a criminal offence to do or say anything that "scandalises" or "lowers the authority" of the court. Though the act is framed in arcane language more suited to medieval ideas of feminine modesty, it actually arms the judiciary with formidable, arbitrary powers to silence its critics and to imprison anyone who asks uncomfortable questions. Small wonder then that the media pulls up short when it comes to reporting issues of judicial corruption and uncovering the scandals that must rock through our courtrooms on a daily basis. There are not many journalists who are willing to risk a long criminal trial and a prison sentence. Until recently, under the Law of Contempt, even truth was not considered a valid defence. So suppose, for instance, we had prima facie evidence that a judge has assaulted or raped someone, or accepted a bribe in return for a favourable judgement, it would be a criminal offence to make the evidence public because that would "scandalise or tend to scandalise" or "lower or tend to lower" the authority of the court. Yes, things have changed, but only a little. Last year, Parliament amended the Contempt of Court Act so that truth becomes a valid defence in a contempt of court charge. But in most cases (such as in the case of the Sabharwal...er... shall we say "affair") in order to prove something it would have to be investigated. But obviously when you ask for an investigation you have to state your case, and when you state your case you will be imputing dishonourable motives to a judge for which you can be convicted for contempt. So: Nothing can be proved unless it is investigated and nothing can be investigated unless it has been proved. The only practical option that's on offer is for us to think Pure Thoughts. For example: a. Judges in India are divine beings. b. Decency, wholesomeness, morality, transparency and integrity are encrypted in their DNA. c. This is proved by the fact that no judge in the history of our Republic has ever been impeached or disciplined in any way. d. Jai Judiciary, Jai Hind. It all becomes a bit puzzling when ex-chief justices like Justice S.P. Bharucha go about making public statements about widespread corruption in the judiciary. Perhaps we should wear ear plugs on these occasions or chant a mantra. It may hurt our pride and curb our free spirits to admit it, but the fact is that we live in a sort of judicial dictatorship. And now there's a scandal in the Palace. Last year (2006) was a hard year for people in Delhi. The Supreme Court passed a series of orders that changed the face of the city, a city that has over the years expanded organically, extra-legally, haphazardly. A division bench headed by Y.K. Sabharwal, chief justice at the time, ordered the sealing of thousands of shops, houses and commercial complexes that housed what the court called 'illegal' businesses that had been functioning, in some cases for decades, out of residential areas in violation of the old master plan. It's true that, according to the designated land-use in the old master plan, these businesses were non-conforming. But the municipal authorities in charge of implementing the plan had developed only about a quarter of the commercial areas they were supposed to. So they looked away while people made their own arrangements (and put their lives' savings into them.) Then suddenly Delhi became the capital city of the new emerging Superpower. It had to be dressed up to look the part. The easiest way was to invoke the Rule of Law. The sealing affected the lives and livelihoods of tens of thousands of people. The city burned. There were protests, there was rioting. The Rapid Action Force was called in. Dismayed by the seething rage and despair of the people, the Delhi government beseeched the court to reconsider its decision. It submitted a new 2021 Master Plan which allowed mixed land-use and commercial activity in several areas that had until now been designated 'residential'. Justice Sabharwal remained unmoved. The bench he headed ordered the sealing to continue. Around the same time, another bench of the Supreme Court ordered the demolition of Nangla Macchi and other jhuggi colonies, which left hundreds of thousands homeless, living on top of the debris of their broken homes, in the scorching summer sun. Yet another bench ordered the removal of all "unlicensed" vendors from the city's streets. Even as Delhi was being purged of its poor, a new kind of city was springing up around us. A glittering city of air-conditioned corporate malls and multiplexes where MNCs showcased their newest products. The better-off amongst those whose shops and offices had been sealed queued up for space in these malls. Prices shot up. The mall business boomed, it was the newest game in town. Some of these malls, mini-cities in themselves, were also illegal constructions and did not have the requisite permissions. But here the Supreme Court viewed their misdemeanours through a different lens. The Rule of Law winked and went off for a tea break. In its judgement on the writ petition against the Vasant Kunj Mall dated October 17, 2006 (in which it allowed the construction of the mall to go right ahead), Justices Arijit Pasayat and S.H. Kapadia said: "Had such parties inkling of an idea that such clearances were not obtained by DDA, they would not have invested such huge sums of money. The stand that wherever constructions have been made unauthorisedly demolition is the only option cannot apply to the present cases, more particularly, when they unlike, where some private individuals or private limited companies or firms being allotted to have made contraventions, are corporate bodies and institutions and the question of their having indulged in any malpractices in getting the approval or sanction does not arise." It's a bit complicated, I know. This was exactly when his sons went into partnership with two mall developers. Sealing helped malls; Sons & Co raked in the bucks. A friend and I sat down and translated it into ordinary English. Basically, a. Even though in this present case the construction may be unauthorised and may not have the proper clearances, huge amounts of money have been invested and demolition is not the only option. b. Unlike private individuals or private limited companies who have been allotted land and may have flouted the law, these allottees are corporate bodies and institutions and there is no question of their having indulged in any malpractice in order to get sanctions or approval. The question of corporate bodies having indulged in malpractice in getting approval or sanction does not arise. So says the Indian Supreme Court. What should we say to those shrill hysterical people protesting out there on the streets, accusing the court of being an outpost of the New Corporate Empire? Shall we shout them down? Shall we say 'Enron zindabad'? 'Bechtel, Halliburton zindabad'? 'Tata, Birla, Mittals, Reliance, Vedanta, Alcan zindabad'? 'Coca-Cola aage badho, hum tumhaare saath hain'? This then was the ideological climate in the Supreme Court at the time the Sabharwal "affair" took place. It's important to make it clear that Justice Sabharwal's orders were not substantially different or ideologically at loggerheads with the orders of other judges who have not been touched by scandal and whose personal integrity is not in question. But the ideological bias of a judge is quite a different matter from the personal motivations and conflict of interest that could have informed Justice Sabharwal's orders. That is the substance of this story. In his final statement to the media before he retired in January 2007, Justice Sabharwal said that the decision to implement the sealing in Delhi was the most difficult decision he had made during his tenure as chief justice. Perhaps it was. Tough Love can't be easy. In May 2007, the Delhi edition of the evening paper Mid Day published detailed investigative stories (and a cartoon) alleging serious judicial misconduct on the part of Justice Sabharwal. The articles are available on the internet. The charges Mid Day made have subsequently been corroborated by the Committee for Judicial Accountability, an organisation that counts senior lawyers, retired judges, professors, journalists and activists as its patrons. The charges in brief are: 1 That Y.K. Sabharwal's sons Chetan and Nitin had three companies: Pawan Impex, Sabs Exports and Sug Exports whose registered offices were initially at their family home in 3/81, Punjabi Bagh, and were then shifted to their father's official residence at 6, Motilal Nehru Marg. 2. That while he was a judge in the Supreme Court but before he became chief justice, he called for and dealt with the sealing of commercial properties case in Delhi. (This was impropriety. Only the chief justice is empowered to call for cases that are pending before a different bench.) . 3. That at exactly this time, Justice Sabharwal's sons went into partnership with two major mall and commercial complex developers, Purshottam Bagheria (of the fashionable Square 1 Mall fame) and Kabul Chawla of Business Park Town Planners (BPTP) Ltd. That as a result of Justice Sabharwal's sealing orders, people were forced to move their shops and businesses to malls and commercial complexes, which pushed up prices, thereby benefiting Justice Sabharwal's sons and their partners financially and materially. 4. That the Union Bank gave a Rs 28 crore loan to Pawan Impex on collateral security which turned out to be non-existent. (Justice Sabharwal says his sons' companies had credit facilities of up to Rs 75 crore.) 5. That because of obvious conflict of interest, he should have recused himself from hearing the sealing case (instead of doing the opposite—calling the case to himself.) 6. That a number of industrial and commercial plots of land in NOIDA were allotted to his sons' companies at throwaway prices by the Mulayam Singh/ Amar Singh government while Justice Sabharwal was the sitting judge on the case of the Amar Singh phone tapes (in which he issued an order restricting their publication.) 7. That his sons bought a house in Maharani Bagh for Rs 15.46 crore. The source of this money is unexplained. In the deeds they have put down their father's name as Yogesh Kumar (uncharacteristic coyness for boys who don't mind running their businesses out of their judge father's official residence.) All these charges are backed by what looks like watertight, unimpeachable documentation. Registration deeds, documents from the Union ministry of company affairs, certificates of incorporation of the various companies, published lists of shareholders, notices declaring increased share capital in Nitin and Chetan's companies, notices from the Income Tax department and a CD of recorded phone conversations between the investigating journalist and the judge himself. These documents seem to indicate that while Delhi burned, while thousands of shops and businesses were sealed and their owners and employees deprived of their livelihood, Justice Sabharwal's sons and their partners were raking in the bucks. They read like an instruction manual for how the New India works. When the story became public, another retired chief justice, J.S. Verma, appeared on India Tonight, Karan Thapar's interview show on CNBC. He brought all the prudence and caution of a former judge to bear on what he said: "...if it is true, this is the height of impropriety...every one who holds any public office is ultimately accountable in democracy to the people, therefore, the people have right to know how they are functioning, and higher is the office that you hold, greater is the accountability...." Justice Verma went on to say that if the facts were correct, it would constitute a clear case of conflict of interest and that Justice Sabharwal's orders on the sealing case must be set aside and the case heard all over again. This is the heart of the matter. This is what makes this scandal such a corrosive one. Hundreds of thousands of lives have been devastated. If it is true that the judgement that caused this stands vitiated, then amends must be made. But are the facts correct? Scandals about powerful and well-known people can be, and often are, malicious, motivated and untrue. God knows that judges make mortal enemies—after all, in each case they adjudicate there is a winner and a loser. There's little doubt that Justice Y.K. Sabharwal would have made his fair share of enemies. If I were him, and if I really had nothing to hide, I would actually welcome an investigation. In fact, I would beg the chief justice to set up a commission of inquiry. I would make it a point to go after those who had fabricated evidence against me and made all these outrageous allegations. What I certainly wouldn't do is to make things worse by writing an ineffective, sappy defence of myself which doesn't address the allegations and doesn't convince anyone (Times of India, September 2, 2007). Equally, if I were the sitting chief justice or anybody else who claims to be genuinely interested in 'upholding the dignity' of the court (fortunately this is not my line of work), I would know that to shovel the dirt under the carpet at this late stage, or to try and silence or intimidate the whistle-blowers, is counter-productive. It wouldn't take me very long to work out that if I didn't order an inquiry and order it quickly, what started out as a scandal about a particular individual could quickly burgeon into a scandal about the entire judiciary. But, of course, not everybody sees it that way. Days after Mid Day went public with its allegations, the Delhi high court issued suo motu notice charging the editor, the resident editor, the publisher and the cartoonist of Mid Day with Contempt of Court. Three months later, on September 11, 2007, it passed an order holding them guilty of criminal Contempt of Court. They have been summoned for sentencing on September 21. What was Mid Day's crime? An unusual display of courage? The high court order makes absolutely no comment on the factual accuracy of the allegations that Mid Day levelled against Justice Sabharwal. Instead, in an extraordinary, almost yogic manoeuvre, it makes out that the real targets of the Mid Day article were the judges sitting with Justice Sabharwal on the division bench, judges who are still in service (and therefore imputing motives to them constitutes Criminal Contempt): "We find the manner in which the entire incidence has been projected appears as if the Supreme Court permitted itself to be led into fulfilling an ulterior motive of one of its members. The nature of the revelations and the context in which they appear, though purporting to single out former Chief Justice of India, tarnishes the image of the Supreme Court. It tends to erode the confidence of the general public in the institution itself. The Supreme Court sits in divisions and every order is of a bench. By imputing motive to its presiding member automatically sends a signal that the other members were dummies or were party to fulfil the ulterior design." Nowhere in the Mid Day articles has any other judge been so much as mentioned. So the journalists are in the dock for an imagined insult. What this means is that if there are several judges sitting on a bench and you have proof that one of them has given an opinion or an order based on corrupt considerations or is judging a case in which he or she has a clear conflict of interest, it's not enough. You don't have a case unless you can prove that all of them are corrupt or that all of them have a conflict of interest and all of them have left a trail of evidence in their wake. Actually, even this is not enough. You must also be able to state your case without casting any aspersions whatsoever on the court. (Purely for the sake of argument: What if two judges on a bench decide to take turns to be corrupt? What would we do then?) So now we're saddled with a whole new school of thought on Contempt of Court: Fevered interpretations of imagined insults against unnamed judges. Phew! We're in La-la Land. In most other countries, the definition of Criminal Contempt of Court is limited to anything that threatens to be a clear and present danger to the administration of justice. This business of "scandalising" and "lowering the authority" of the court is an absurd, dangerous form of censorship and an insult to our collective intelligence. The journalists who broke the story in Mid Day have done an important and courageous thing. Some newspapers acting in solidarity have followed up the story. A number of people have come together and made a public statement further bolstering that support. There is an online petition asking for a criminal investigation. If either the government or the courts do not order a credible investigation into the scandal, then a group of senior lawyers and former judges will hold a public tribunal and examine the evidence that is placed before them. It's all happening. The lid is off, and about time too. © Outlook Publishing (India) Private Limited (http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20071001&fname=Sabharwal+%28F%29&sid=1) ______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail now has unlimited storage, which means you can have spam control and more space for those important e-mails. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From abhishek.behl at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 12:17:49 2007 From: abhishek.behl at gmail.com (Abhishek Behl) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:17:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Reply to Mr Shivam Vij regarding YK Sabharwal's story and accusation of plagiarism Message-ID: <752e62290709262347k76b2528asf2b97e9847ea6766@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Abhishek Behl Date: Sep 26, 2007 5:34 PM Subject: Fwd: Reply to Mr Shivam Vij regarding YK Sabharwal's story To: mail at shivamvij.com, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: vikash.sen at gmail.com - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Abhishek Behl Date: Sep 26, 2007 5:30 PM Subject: Reply to Mr Shivam Vij regarding YK Sabharwal's story To: mail at shivamvij.com Cc: reader-list-request at sarai.net , kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Dear Shivam VIj, This is in reply to your judgement which has been pronounced post-haste, that I plagiarized the story on Justice Sabharwal and committed a sin. Mr VIj, i agree that nepotism is wrong and plagiarism is no less worse but what about judging a person guilty of murder even without knowing the other side of the story. You have pronounced me an intellectual thief no less even without giving me a hearing and your lordship has not even allowed arguments in favour or against this criminal act. Isn't that a crime and even of a worst degree than what was committed by YK Sabharwal or a a lowly reporter like me, as the flag of originality is held aloft by people like you. In response to your accusation, i must clarify that not a single line of my story regarding Justice Sabharwal has been lifted. Coming from a senior journalist or should i say a blogger, whom i have been reading at National Highway.com and now at Shivam Vij.com , the accusations surprised me and i was caught in self doubt and shocked. So, what do i do, i just checked the article again through copyscape and found that nothing wrong had been committed and there is no fault on myside. The story which was published was a press conference which was organized by Senior lawyer Prashant Bhushan at Press Club, Delhi and i was present there and attended the press conference there. And this can be checked from the attendance sheet kept by CJAR, Campaign for Judicial accountability and Reforms. The story is split in two parts: One is press conference, where in demands have been made by the CJAR asking for probe against the former chief justice and the next portion is a press release issued by CJAR and the same has been reproduced verbatim by Merinews and other papers as well. Mr vij being a seniior blogger must know that a press release is issued to all newspapers and given to media persons for being published in the newspapers. An editor has the right to publish the press release and if merinews has published it verbatim and written clearly than how does that fall under plagiarism as suggested by you. It is clearly mentioned that we are reproducing the CJAR press release than what is the problem and the same has been done by many news papers and magazines. I fail to understand how you came to conclude that i had plagiarized and topping that you even pronounced the judgement against me without even giving me a chance to reply. I have been following you on national highway and now on shivamvij.com, and frankly speaking i admire your writings on Dalit issues and related articles and that why i am pretty surprised with your reaction. A person of your caliber should not have pronounced me guilty and to be hanged even without listeniong to me. Anyways you can please recheck the entire story, check the facts, use a good sofware to check plagiarizm, talk to me, discuss the contect theft and if you come to the conclusion that I am an intellectual thief, then i would take the punishment with my head bowed. But i am confident of my innocence, because i believe in originality, truth and honest work and i bet that you will lose this battle against this petty content thief, as you have called me. With regards Abhishek Behl On 9/20/07, Bikash Ballabh Singh < vikash.sen at gmail.com> wrote: > Former Chief Justice of India (CJI) Justice YK Sabarwal is in the midst of a > controversy, with senior lawyers and former CJIs demanding a probe into the > allegations. A Report... > > by Abhishek Behl > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=126536 > > HE SEALED the fate of many a people in Delhi, with his strict orders on > 'Sealing' the illegal buildings in the Indian capital. > > But 'sealing' today came back to haunt the former Chief Justice of India > (CJI), Justice Y K Sabharwal, when questions were raised over his > professional conduct into the entire sealing episode. > > Raising serious allegations over the professional demeanour of the former > CJI, the Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR), > a group of jurists and social activists, demanded a probe into the manner in > which his Lordship accrued pecuniary benefits for his sons, through his > judicial orders over the sealing issue, on Wednesday (September 19). > > We need to approach the serious allegations against the former CJI with > caution and care. Is Justice Sabharwal being singled out for some reason or > is there any iota of truth in these charges? In fact, a section of the legal > fraternity feels that Justice Sabharwal should himself demand an impartial > probe into the serious allegations. They added that other former CJIs, > judges and senior lawyers' demand for a fair probe into these charges needs > to be viewed in the light of utter fairness and objectivity. > > Addressing media persons in Delhi, senior lawyer Prashant Bhushan demanded > that an independent probe should be ordered by the Supreme Court of India to > find out the truth. > > "We want the truth to come out and for this the Supreme Court has to take > the lead", he said, alleging that Justice Sabharwal's two sons had colluded > with the builders to take advantage of the real estate market influenced by > the sealing drive. > > Making a point-by-point rebuttal of Justice Sabharwal's statement published > in the media, Prashant demanded that the Justice Sabharwal be charged under > prevention of corruption act. > > The Judicial Reforms Group further stated that they would initiate an > independent inquiry if the Supreme Court did nothing in this regard. > > A time of reckoning for Indian Judiciary has come and it is time the Apex > Court rises to the occasion and faces the challenge, said former Law > Minister and veteran lawyer, Shanti Bhushan. > > "A number of former Chief Justices including Justice V K Krishna Iyer, > Justice PB Sawant, Justice JC Verma have called for a probe into this matter > and same will bring forth the truth. > > Noted social activists Swami Agnivesh and Arvind Kejriwal, who were present > on the occasion, also demanded an impartial probe into the affairs of > Justice Sabharwal. > > On this occasion, a document, in the form of a press release, was issued by > the Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms detailing the > alleged irregularities. > > Here it must be mentioned that former Chief Justices of India including > Justice J C Verma, Justice VN Khare, Justice PB Sawant and Justice V R > Krishna Iyer had called for a voluntary probe to put an end to this > controversy. They had said that an independent probe would bring out the > truth and restore the credibility of Indian judiciary. > > A few days earlier, Justice Sabharwal had, however, strongly denied any > wrongdoing on his part or on the part of his two sons, in the media. > >* The document (press release), is reproduced verbatim, issued by Campaign for > Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR), on Wednesday: *> > Justice Sabharwal finally broke his silence in a signed piece in the Times > of India. His defence proceeds by ignoring and sidestepping the inconvenient > and emphasizing the irrelevant if it can evoke sympathy. To examine the > adequacy of his defence, we need to see his defence against the gravamen of > each charge against him. > > *Charge No. 1:* That his son's companies had shifted their registered > offices to his official residence. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That as soon as he came to know he ordered > his son's to shift it back. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* This is False. In April 2007, in a recorded interview > with the Midday reporter MK Tayal he feigned total ignorance of the shifting > of the offices to his official residence. Copy of the CD containing the said > conversation is attached hereto as Annexure I. In fact, the registered > offices were shifted back from his official residence to his Punjabi Bagh > residence exactly on the day that the BPTP mall developers became his sons' > partners, making it very risky to continue at his official residence. Copies > of the document showing the date of induction of Kabul Chawla, the promoter > and owner of BPTP in Pawan Impex Pvt. Ltd., one of the companies of Jutstice > Sabharwal's sons, and Form no. 18 showing the shifting of the registered > office from the official residence of Justice Sabharwal to his family > residence on 23rd October 2004 are attached hereto as Annexure II (Colly). > > *Charge No. 2:* That he called for and dealt with the sealing of commercial > property case in March 2005, though it was not assigned to him. It is only > the Chief Justice who can assign pending cases to various judges. He was not > the CJI at that time. Copy of the order dated 17th March 2005 is attached > hereto as Annexure III. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* Justice Sabharwal does not answer this > charge. > > *Charge No. 3:* That he did this exactly around the time that his sons got > into partnerships with Mall and commercial complex developers, who stood to > benefit from his sealing orders. The chain of events is as follows: > > On 23rd October 2004, Kabul Chawla, the promoter of one of the biggest > developers of shopping malls and commercial complexes, was inducted in Pawan > Impex as a 50% shareholder and Director. On 12.02.2005, Kabul Chawla's wife, > Anjali Chawla was also inducted as Director of Pawan Impex. On 17th March > 2005, Justice Sabharwal ordered that the case dealing with the sealing of > commercial establishments should also be heard along with the writ of M.C. > Mehta, which was being heard by him. On 8th April 2005, Chetan Sabharwal and > Nitin Sabharwal, two sons of Justice Sabharwal, set up another company, > Harpawan Constructors, with the object of constructing Commercial complexes. > On 25th October 2005, Purshottam Bagheria, one of the big builders on > shopping malls and commercial complexes of Delhi was inducted as a partner > in Harpwan Construtors. On 16th Februrary 2006, Justice Y. K. Sabharwal, who > by that time had become the Chief Justice of India, passed a detailed order > in the aforementioned case setting into motion the demolition and sealing in > Delhi. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That they were his sons friends. That > Harpawan Constructors, which was set up by his sons with the Mall developer > Purshottam Bagheria did not do any business. In fact the courts under him > got Bagheria's 1 MG road mall demolished. That his sons are not developing > shopping malls but only an IT Park. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* If so many Mall and commercial complex developers were > his sons' close friends, then he should not have dealt with the case anyway > since that creates an immediate conflict of interest. Moreover, why should > they go into partnership with these developers who stood to benefit from > Justice Sabharwal's orders, and that too exactly at the time when he seizes > control of the sealing of commercial property case and starts dealing with > it. He says that the company set up by his sons in partnership with Bagheria > has not done any business. If so, why was this new company set up for > developing commercial complexes in partnership with this builder? In an > interview with ZNews Justice Sabhawal claims credit for the judiciary under > him ordering the demolition of the illegal 1 MG road mall owned by Bagheria. > But then why do his sons enter into partnerships with such an illegal > builder whose buildings have had to be demolished by the Judiciary? And > immediately after this partnership with the Sabharwals, Bagheria went on to > announce the construction of "Square 1 mall" in Saket as the most > fashionable mall in India. And all the fashion designers who had their shops > and outlets at 1 MG road went on to buy space in the Square I mall. What is > important to note here is that Bagheria and his partners at 1 MG road had > already parted with all the space on 1 MG Road. The demolition thus hurt the > designers and others who had bought shops there, but did not hurt Bagheria > who may have in fact benefited from it by clearing the land of his tenants > and getting them to buy space at his new malls at Saket and elsewhere. > An IT park is also a commercial complex like any other. Many commercial > establishments sealed were IT centres and BPOs, which were forced to buy > space in, IT parks like that being constructed by his sons and their > partners. > > *Charge No. 4:* That the Union Bank of India gave a loan of 28 crores to his > sons' company Pavan Impex on a collateral of plant and machinery and other > moveables at the site of their proposed IT Park, which were non-existent. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response*: That his sons' had a credit facility of 75 > crores. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* If that were the case, what was the need for mortgaging > non-existent assets for obtaining this loan? Moreover, the Banks' senior > manager is on record saying that the loan was given on the basis of > projected sales to prospective customers. The conversation with the Bank > Manager is in the CD attached hereto as Annexure I. > > *Charge No. 5:* That because of the obvious conflict of interest, he could > not have dealt with this case. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That his orders have never benefited his > sons. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* His orders of sealing lakhs of commercial properties > clearly forced those establishments to buy or rent space in commercial > complexes like those that his sons' companies were constructing; and > shopping malls etc that their friends and partners were constructing. There > was a clear conflict of interest and his orders have clearly benefited his > sons and their partners. > > *Charge No. 6:* That a large number of industrial and commercial plots were > allotted in Noida by the UP government to his sons' companies, at prices far > below the market price. In particular several huge plots were allotted > between December 2004 and November 2006 by the Mulayam Singh/Amar Singh > government, while he was dealing with Amar Singh's tapes case, and had > stayed the publication of those tapes on the behest of Amar Singh. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That some of the plots were allotted by > earlier different governments. That the prices were not far below the market > price. That the allotments were made in the normal course to his sons who > were entrepreneurs and were providing employment to hundreds of people in > Noida. > > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* Even if one were to look at only the last two > allotments of 12,000 metres each made in December 2004 and November 2006, > made by the Mulayam Singh/Amar Singh governments, it is obvious that the > allotments are definitely not in the normal course. Consider the allotment > to Pawan Impex. The company has Nil turnover and Nil business (as declared > in their application) on the date of application on 30/12/04. The very next > day they receive a letter from Noida Authority asking them to come for an > interview within 4 days on 5/11/04. On that day the authority notes that > they want 12,000 sq m in Sector 125 or Sector 132. The minutes note that > because the work of development of Sector 125 is not complete and because in > sector 132 the plot size available is only upto 11,000 sq metres, the matter > is deferred for the next meeting. In the next meeting on 13/12/04, though > Sector 125 is still not developed, a decision is taken to allot them a > 12,000 Sq. metre plot in Sector 125 for a BPO. All this without a word about > how and why a company with nil business is worthy of being allotted one of > the largest plots of 12,000 sq. meters. The previous application of M/s > Softedge Solutions Pvt. Ltd for an IT park is rejected on the ground that > they could not satisfactorily answer questions about their previous > experience in IT and their technical tie up. But Pawan Impex represented by > Chetan Sabharwal with Nil business, no previous track record in IT and no > technical tie up sails through with no questions asked. All in the normal > course, of course! Copies of the profit and loss accounts of Pawan Impex > Pvt. Ltd. for the year ended 31.03.2003 and 31.03.2004 showing its income > nil are attached hereto as Annexure IV (Colly). Justice Sabharwal says that > the allotment price of Rs. 3,700/sq M was not below the market price. The > current circle rate in Sector 125 is Rs. 11,000/sq metre and the market > price is over Rs. 30,000/sq meter there. > > Similarly, the huge plot of 3 acres, No. 12 A in Sector 68 alloted to Sabs > Exports in November 2006 at a throw away price of Rs. 4000 per square meter > is also not in the normal course and was similarly made within days of > application and a bogus interview, without any other system. Today, within > 10 months of allotment, even the circle rate of plots in Sector 68 is Rs. > 8,000 per sq. meter and the market rate is Rs. 20-22,000 per sq. meter. > Moreover this allotment has been made at a time when he was dealing with > Amar Singh's tapes case and had stayed the publication of the tapes. > > *Charge No. 7:* That his sons have purchased a 1150 square meter house in > Maharani bagh, New Delhi in March 2007 for a consideration of 15.46crores. > The source of money for this is unexplained and in the sale deed they seek > to conceal their relationship with Justice Sabharwal by writing his name as > Yogesh Kumar and giving their factory address instead of the residential > address. > > *Justice Sabharwal's response:* That 90 per cent of the money for the > purchase of this house was from four banks; that his sons concealed his full > name in the sale deed in order to avoid taking advantage of their > association with him. > * * > *CJAJR's Rejoinder:* Banks do not normally advance loans of 90% of the value > of a property on its security. Otherwise they would end up holding > inadequate security if the property prices fall by even 15%. If they have > done so in this case, it is either because of an undue favour as in the case > of the loan of 28 Crores to Pawan Impex, or they valued the property higher > than the declared purchase price. His explanation for concealing his name in > the sale deed is hilarious and unbelievable since his sons did not hesitate > to use his official residence as the registered office of their companies. > Moreover, this was in a registered sale deed with a private party, where > there was no occasion for taking any advantage by using his name. Dear Bikash, Thanks for posting this here. If you happen to know Mr Abhishek Behl, please tell him that plagiarism may not be as bad as nepotism by a Chief Justice but it is still criminal. No doubt you will find this on "merinews," which is sadly falls lowest in terms of online credibility. best shivam From zabeehafaque at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 14:42:30 2007 From: zabeehafaque at gmail.com (ZABEEH AFAQUE) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:42:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Introduction In-Reply-To: <229f71e30709260549x29c89058wfa92b9118f1d9004@mail.gmail.com> References: <229f71e30709260549x29c89058wfa92b9118f1d9004@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <229f71e30709270212x5dda454ds6c6e34cf2625a4de@mail.gmail.com> Hello All Saraians, My name is Zabeeh, i am a new vendor in this sarai, I usually visit this sarai but this is the first time i am joining the race with you. i am a Journalist and presently working in CNN-IBN (a small news channel) rest some of my work can be seen on www.mediaactivist.blogspot.com stay tuned Zabeeh New Delhi www.ibnlive.com From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 15:56:18 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:56:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Talk by Ranjani Mazumdar Message-ID: <98f331e00709270326x25ec01b9g1bc2dbde9d01ae5a@mail.gmail.com> An Illustrated Talk By *Ranjani Mazumdar *** (School of Arts & Aesthetics, Jawaharlal Nehru University) To Celebrate the Publication of her Book * **Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City * (Published by Permanent Black, 2007) Discussants *Ravi** Vasudevan * (Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, Sarai) *Shohini Ghosh * (MCRC, Jamia Milia Islamia) Friday, October 12th at 6.30 pm at Gulmohar, India Habitat Centre New Delhi From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 16:10:50 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (Taraprakash) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:40:50 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Introduction References: <229f71e30709260549x29c89058wfa92b9118f1d9004@mail.gmail.com> <229f71e30709270212x5dda454ds6c6e34cf2625a4de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <027801c800f2$e38fd900$aefcbd48@Shabori> Welcome. Small channel? That is the only channel I can watch online without any hassles in the US. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ZABEEH AFAQUE" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:12 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Introduction > Hello All Saraians, > My name is Zabeeh, i am a new vendor in this sarai, > I usually visit this sarai but this is the first time i am joining the > race > with you. > i am a Journalist and presently working in CNN-IBN (a small news channel) > rest some of my work can be seen on www.mediaactivist.blogspot.com > > stay tuned > > Zabeeh > New Delhi > www.ibnlive.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sayandebmukherjee at yahoo.co.in Fri Sep 28 00:24:01 2007 From: sayandebmukherjee at yahoo.co.in (sayandeb mukherjee) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:54:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] the space interlude/corridor spaces/6th posting Message-ID: <158254.83713.qm@web7708.mail.in.yahoo.com> i regret for the delay for it took time to prepare scientific and theoretical explanations on acoustics/acoustic responses of different kinds of corridor spaces 6TH POSTING BEFORE dealing with the psychoacoustics of these spaces it is important to give an account on the acoustic behavior or acoustic responses of these spaces. Corridors are generally interspersed with doors which are once again the interfaces of individual flats/rooms/enclosures. The sounds that are emanated from the indoors (i.e. the rooms or flats) are transmitted to some extent through the walls and closed doors to reach this common passage. If the doors are open, like it remains in colleges, hospitals or mostly public spaces/unprivatized spaces, the sound from the source directly reaches the passage. But a person who’s passing through the passage and is away from the door also hears a portion of the incidental sound. That is due to reasons – a. a portion is transmitted through the walls and b. a major portion is diffracted at the ends of the opening of the door. Unlike optical shadow, sound shadow is not so defined because of the diffractive properties of sound. Refer to the figures drawn (will be posted later). It shows how a listener, in spite being away from the room, is able to hear sound sourced from inside the rooms/enclosures. The diffractive properties differ throughout the entire audio-frequency spectrum. A low-frequency / low mid-frequency content in the sound is diffracted more than the high / high mid-frequencies. Also, the high frequency sounds are more directional than the low frequency sounds. Hence the high frequency sounds generally don’t reach the ears of the listener who is off / oblique from the direction of the source. The low frequency-content of the source gets more scattered and diffracted while reaching the ears of the listener distant from the direct opening of the room. As the high-frequency content is depleted a person perceives a booming or wooly sound of a speech when he traverses in the corridor-like-spaces. We construct four cases: CASE A: Where the corridor is having one side open This scattered diffracted and transmitted sound passes away to the opposite opening unreflected or unobstructed. In these kinds of spaces, not much dense sound-field is generated. The sound generated from the space doesn’t confront much reflections/refractions (for there is no substantial reflective surface) and the listener hears it almost dry, or without being reverberated. This substantially detriments the depth of the sound-field and hence the space appears acoustically colorless. In this single loaded corridor the property that is distinguishable from the double-one is the mammoth interference of the extraneous sounds – the environmental sound elements that give a characteristic spatial definition to the corridor space. In the single loaded corridors, that can be called a verandah, the visual attributes along with ambient audible qualities provides a positional reference to the space. So the listener is not thrown into an abstract field with no clues of time and space, whereas he is well posited for the re-assurance of the environmental associativity. Even if there are reflections, reverberations of the sounds generated from verandah that would immensely get masked by the ambience coming from the open side and the audio qualities doesn’t become audible until and unless gets diminished to a considerable extent. So when this ambience gets diminished, the sonic-scape of this veranda takes a different look/shape. The depth of the audio field increases and there happens a resurgence of the sounds and its reflections generated from the verandah. This happens in the late hours of the night, for example in the case of a college which is located beside a road with heavy traffic plying during the daytime, the acoustic details of the traffic gets prominence with the redemption of the traffic during night and attains more clarity with the fall of the night and as silence prevails in the surrounding. The incidental sounds like footsteps with its length stretched throughout the verandah, door banging, some people talking standing in the verandah acoustically establishes that it is a single loaded corridor. CASE B: Where the corridor space is having walls on both the sides As discussed earlier, that the sounds generated from inside the rooms/enclosures/flats connected to this common interface – the corridor undergo 1.transmission through the walls of the corridor, 2.diffraction from the openings of the rooms (like doors, windows) thereby penetrating this double loaded corridor space. A major portion of the generated sound remains inside the room as they are reflected/bounced back to the other walls of the room getting absorbed therein. The sounds leaking out from the room, after losing most of its high frequency content (as stated earlier) and a portion of it being transmitted and diffracted reaches the opposite wall of the corridor which acts as a reflective surface. The intensity of reflection depends on three factors primarily – (i) the intensity of the source, (ii) the dimension of the corridor and (iii) the reflective properties of the walls. The intensity of reflection is directly proportional to the intensity of the source and the reflective qualities of the wall and is inversely proportional to the distance between the walls. The louder the source, the more it will undergo reflections from the walls. Generally, the sounds are not so impulsive or loud (like an explosion) to sufficiently generate higher order images. Since the sound is being generated at a considerable distance from the passage, inside the room and also because sound is inversely proportional to the distance, its energy content gets appreciably diminished by the time it reaches the common space. Hence, the reflected image of this leaked out sounds is too weak to reach the opposite wall of the corridor. The possibility of second order images, (i.e. reflected images from reflected sounds) further reduces as the distance between the corridor walls is increased. With the increase in the dimension of these spaces, for the sounds arriving from these openings, its early reflections from the surfaces will take some time to get depleted and a considerable time elapses before the sound content decays to an imperceptible level. The corridor spaces are mostly comprised of masonry walls with cemented surfaces sometimes coated with plaster of paris. When it is uncoated with plaster of paris then the texture is not so regular to produce specular reflections like that of light and the surface is porous enough to render diffusion for certain range of the audio spectrum. [About Specular reflection – specular reflection is a mirror-type reflection, similar to the reflection of light from a mirror. In specular reflection, the incidental sound beam is reflected off the reflecting surface as per Snell’s law. For specular reflection to occur, the surface irregularities in the texture should be smaller than wavelength of sound. And higher the frequency of the sound wave, the smaller will be its wavelength. So, with surface irregularities of smaller dimension specular reflection of high frequencies with small wavelength will be affected more than low frequencies. About Diffuse reflection – in diffuse reflection, the incidental sound is reflected equally in all directions causing a uniform scattering of sound. For diffuse reflections, the reflecting surface must be irregular and heavily textured. The dimensions of the irregularities should be not less than or approximately equal to the wavelength of sound. Thus, for a wall to provide diffuse reflection at 1 kHz (?=wavelength approximately equal to 0.3m or 1ft), its surface irregularities should be of the order of 0.3m (1ft). Surface irregularities of a few cm will provide specular reflection at 10 kHz frequency. Now a sound with a frequency of 100 Hz will have wavelength approximately 3m or 10ft. With this wavelength, the sound will be specularly reflected from a wall with surface irregularity of dimension 0.3m or 1ft. In other words, a 100 Hz sound will not see these irregularities and the wall will behave as a smooth wall. On the other hand, a 1 kHz sound will be diffusedly reflected from this surface. At a frequency of 10 kHz, with a wavelength of approximately 30mm (nearly 1 inch), each individual irregularity will be large enough to function as an independent reflector. Therefore, sound will be specularly reflected from each surface irregularity thereby providing some scattering of sound (since the surface irregularities are oriented in different directions). ] For small little surface irregularities like it remains in corridor walls in most cases, the high and somewhat high-mid frequencies of the sound spectrum are more diffused than the lower end. This attenuates the harsh reflections of the higher end (or mutilates the acoustic glare caused by the reflectivity of the walls). Because of this diffusive property of sound, a portion of it is evenly scattered thereby reducing its energy so that it doesn’t reach the opposite wall of the corridor after being reflected. And as mentioned, the high frequencies contained in the sound will be more diffused than the lower thereby making the sound more muffled giving space to the boomy lower frequencies to get partially or fully specularly reflected and travel in the walls of the corridor. The residual portion of this leakage from individual openings gets absorbed in the wall. Now the quantity of absorption depends on the absorption coefficient of the walls contd. [Absorption coefficient determines the strength of absorption of the walls; this provides a value needed for the qualitative analysis of the acoustic materials used for acoustic treatment of studios, theatres, auditoriums.] Mostly for corridor walls, unless it is a special case, the walls are made of concrete with a required number of coatings and sometimes for affluent/well off places it would probably be finally coated with plaster of paris. The concrete surface with coarse texture and no plaster will have an average absorption coefficient 0.34 (0.36 at 125Hz, 0.31 at 500Hz, 0.29 at 1 kHz, 0.25 at 4 kHz) partially absorbing the incidental sound thereby evading unusual reflections to happen. The absorption by these kind of walls are better than marble or glazed tiles or metallic surfaces which will have acoustic glare thereby rendering unusual fluttering of the sound and sometimes discrete early reflections to happen which would be very annoying for the listener. When the sound source or the sound-activity is happening ‘in’ the corridor then, 1.the intensity of the sound would be more in comparison to the sounds generated from inside the room and meeting this space. When the observer himself is the acoustic centre and if he makes an appreciably loud sound, then the sound wave instantaneously reaches the opposite walls of the corridor. Here the two parallel walls act as two parallel reflectors. As we know, when there are two parallel reflectors, we will obtain an infinite number of images of the source since each image works as a source for the other reflector. This may be confirmed by standing between two parallel mirrors; an infinite number of the self will be seen. This is simply another way of stating that the sound will be reflected back and forth between two parallel reflecting walls infinite number of times before exhausting to inaudibility. Now imagine a sound source(s) located between two reflective parallel walls 15m apart, as shown in FIGURE (to be posted later). Obviously, this situation produces an infinite number of images of the source. The first-order images, image I1 and I2, are behind wall 1 and wall 2 respectively. The second order image, I12, is the image of I1 and is formed behind wall 2. I21 is the image of image I2 behind wall 1. Similarly, I121 and I212 represent third order images and so on. If we determine the distance between images, we find that the distance between successive order images increases by 30m – twice the distance between walls. Thus, the first order images are 30m apart, second order images are 60m apart, and third order images are 90m apart and so on. Since the speed of sound is 344m/s, the time gap between each successive reflected sound will be 87milliseconds. This, according to the Haas effect, will produce echoes. Since these echoes recur after a regular interval of 87 milliseconds, they produce a flutter effect; hence this phenomenon is called flutter echoes. If the distance between walls were 5m, successive order images would be 10m apart. Therefore the time gap successive reflections would be 10/344, i.e. 29 milliseconds, which (according to the Haas effect) should not be perceived as echoes. However, the flutter is heard all the same. The reason lies on our ears being extremely sensitive to periodic repetition of sounds ..contd. thanking you sayandeb mukherjee SAYANDEB MUKHERJEE FT#308, SUBBARAJU TOWERS, ROAD NO.4, VIJAYAPURI COLONY, KOTHAPET, HYDERABAD PIN: 500 035 PH#9849383863 Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From p.hatzopoulos-alumni at lse.ac.uk Fri Sep 28 16:02:01 2007 From: p.hatzopoulos-alumni at lse.ac.uk (p.hatzopoulos-alumni at lse.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:32:01 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] New special issue: NO MEDIATION Message-ID: Online journal Re-public has just published a special issue titled "NO MEDIATION: Re-imagining democracy through art ". The issue explores the increasing association of art with the explosion of novel democratic mediums and forms . Articles include: Eyal Weizman - Beyond colonialism: Israeli/Palestinian space < http://www.re-public.gr/en/?p=194 > Architect Eyal Weizman discusses his new book, Hollow Land - an exploration of the political space created by Israel's occupation. _____ Blixa Bargeld - All (is) open again < http://www.re-public.gr/en/?p=186 > Blixa Bargeld discusses Einsturzende Neubauten's new project which is being released without any kind of record label involvement. _____ Peter Lunenfeld - Dispatches from the front: Battling for meaning in the war between downloading and uploading < http://www.re-public.gr/en/?p=167 > There is no end to the ways in which meaningful culture is more meaningful than mindless production, no matter how participatory, argues Peter Lunenfeld. _____ Matteo Stocchetti - Re-thinking the political in the age of ambivalence: Art, new media and democratic politics < http://www.re-public.gr/en/?p=174 > Matteo Stocchetti claims that the 'democratization of art' and 'political democratization' are two different processes and we should be careful not to confuse the two. _____ All articles of Re-public are published with a Creative Commons license and can be re-printed freely, by acknowledging their source. Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/secretariat/legal/disclaimer.htm From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 18:46:53 2007 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:46:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fisher women Protest Against World Tourism Day Message-ID: <3457ce860709280616y505f3ccci677b1e8fe3b57826@mail.gmail.com> Fisher women Protest Against World Tourism Day Hundreds of fisher women under the banner of Theeradesa Mahilavedi, the women's wing of the Kerala Swatantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) protested against the World Tourism Day celebration on 27th September in frond of the secretariat, Trivandrum. World Tourism Day is to be observed on 27th September each year by different themes selected by the General Assembly of UNWTO (United Nations World Tourism Organization), on recommendation of UNWTO's Executive Council, to promote awareness among the international community of the importance of tourism. This year's tourism day's theme was 'Tourism opens doors for women'. The Theeradesa Mahilavedi has expressed strong dissent due to the implications of this effort, in this context when the tourism industry has already generated a number of negative impacts on women. The draft Coastal Zone Management Plan prepared by Ministry of Environment and Forests, which excludes tourism projects from coastal zone regulations, is testimony to this. The zone demarcations being proposed will further cut off fisher people's traditional access to the sea and the coasts. As further stretches of beach are bought by hotel and tourism lobbies, privatized coasts will mean no place for drying fish, mending nets, or carrying out all the ancillary activities that provide fisher women a means of survival The members of the Theeradesa Mahilavedi have pointed out that the World Tourism Organisation and various government and intergovernmental organisations are using this occasion to protect the interests of industry and celebrating it as one sided and biased manner. These celebrations are not corresponding the interests of marginalized communities. While international agencies such as the UNWTO are actively promoting this year's theme, what the hype obscures is the negative impact of tourism on women, especially marginalized women through pressure on natural and other resources, curtailed access to resources, and vulnerability to sexual and other forms of harassment. The Theeradesa Mahilavedi has called for the civil society to support the struggle against the World Tourism Day celebrations, its politics in the context of the "Tourism opens doors for women" theme and its negative impacts on women, local communities, environment and culture. The existing Tourism development has already resulted in an alarming increase in Sex Tourism, child labor, drug addition and child abuse. The fisher women demanded 1) That the Government of India and various state governments to stop acquiring further coastal land for tourism development 2) Immediate monitoring of cultural impact of tourism development on traditional communities 3) Immediate rehabilitation of communities displaced by tourism development, and further, 4) Immediate steps to be taken to clean up already accumulated pollution, waste and ecological damage due to tourism. The protest was led by Elizabath Antony, Freeska Kurishappan, Magline Peter, Girly John, Everesta Jose and Mereena. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 19:52:58 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:22:58 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] WSJ on Broadcasting Services Regulation Bill Message-ID: >From this week's WSJ, apologies if repetition. -N THE WALL STREET JOURNAL September 27, 2007 COMMENTARY Big Brother By SHRUTI RAJAGOPALAN Ms. Rajagopalan is a lawyer based in New Delhi. NEW DELHI -- When Richard Gere kissed Shilpa Shetty, the star of Britain's "Big Brother" program last year, India's moral police professed shock, and many called for media censorship. What they didn't say was that New Delhi's policy makers were already well on their way to doing just that. This November, India's parliament will consider the Broadcasting Services Regulation Bill, the country's most sweeping attempt yet to infringe on free speech. The proposed law is the result of a Supreme Court decision that came down in 1995, when the court mediated a dispute over telecasting rights of a live cricket match. The justices deemed India's airwaves a scarce resource and "public property" which should not be monopolized by the government or private broadcasters but regulated for national interest. It recommended that New Delhi create an independent statutory body -- an oxymoron in itself -- to act as the custodian of airwaves. That bill ignores decades of evidence that government control over the airwaves just doesn't work in a democracy. Britain may have created the British Broadcasting Service in 1922, ostensibly an independent body to regulate media, but it was later stripped of that role and the British media market opened to competition. The United States created the Federal Communications Act of 1934 to monitor against private monopolies and also regulate content and coverage in public interest. This relic has also undergone dilution over the years and given way to the somewhat less restrictive Telecommunications Act of 1996. No matter; the Indian Ministry of Information and Broadcasting intends to replicate their peers' mistakes decades later. The Broadcasting Services Regulation Bill 2007 sets out a comprehensive policy on broadcasting that is concerned with both carriage and content. It proposes to set up the Broadcasting Regulatory Authority of India (BRAI) which will ostensibly be an independent authority; establish an independent content code; and develop the system for censorship and certification. If the bill passes -- which is likely under a left-leaning Congress Party coalition -- the government's powers will be greatly extended. The legislation prohibits any person from broadcasting any channel or program without a license from an authority designated by the government. The proposed agency isn't really an independent authority and would be run by bureaucrats handpicked by the government. Thus the government would be able to arm-twist the media through the BRAI medium of licensing and registration, which allows it to mandate content as well as impose severe penalties on unlicensed broadcasters. The bill requires all shows to be broadcast only if they are in the greatest interest of the general public -- a judgment that will be made in New Delhi. Policy makers also propose to free ride off of the profitable parts of the private sector. The bill makes it mandatory for every cable or satellite service to provide two government-owned channels: "Doordarshan," the long-running national government broadcaster, and one regional channel for the respective state government. The government also proposes to force private broadcasters to share live telecasting rights of any sporting event of national importance with the state-owned channels. Just in case anyone objects to these repressive rules, the bill requires every channel to register with the BRAI -- which may refuse registration if it is of the considered opinion that the content of the channel is likely to "threaten the security and integrity of the State," "threaten peace and harmony or public order," or "threaten relations with foreign countries." The central government has also reserved the power to prevent a broadcast or revoke the license of a broadcaster in case of external threat or in "exceptional circumstances." In a pluralistic democracy like India, which has every conceivable kind of moral and religious police, whose ideas of what's proper would prevail? The man best positioned to answer these questions is the minister for information and broadcasting, Priyaranjan Dasmunshi, who is responsible for this legislation. After the Gere-Shetty kiss was aired, Mr. Dasmunshi declared that he felt the media had been "irresponsible" for showing the image many times over, offending sensitivities with "frivolous news"; thus making a case for stringent regulation of news channels. So would Mr. Gere's affectionate embrace of Ms. Shetty be deemed an "exceptional circumstance"? While the minister's views are cause for alarm, they pale in comparison to the "content code" drafted by the ministry. The code stipulates, for example, that broadcasters shall not present the figure of a woman as mere "sexual objects." Noble as the idea may be, it's scarcely a good reason for censoring the press, especially when pornographic material is already banned in its entirety. Similarly, the code prevents broadcasters from distorting religious symbols or practices in a derogatory manner. The government has called the code a "roadmap for self regulation" whereby the broadcasters will follow the guidelines and manage their content accordingly. But the government's track record in regulating content doesn't inspire confidence. This July the government banned an underwear advertisement for being vulgar and suggestive; oddly enough, no one was wearing underwear or appearing nude and it only showed a woman doing her husband's laundry. In January, the Ministry banned AXN, a cable network, for two months for airing a show called World's Sexiest Commercials. In May, the same policy makers banned Fashion TV, another cable channel, for a show called Midnight Hot, on grounds that it violated public decency. Both shows were aired after 11 p.m. and the channels are considered mainstream everywhere else in the free world. But Mr. Dasmunshi responded to criticism of the bans by saying, "If out of 75 complaints we banned only two channels, why the hue and cry?" The larger design of this government is to control political free speech. This legislation, if passed, will come down heavily on channels conducting "sting operations" to expose corrupt government officials or scams. This seems ominous given the ban last week on Live India for conducting a "fake" sting operation exposing an alleged prostitution racket. The Ministry of Information and Broadcasting banned the channel for a month as it aired material which "incited violence and contained content against maintenance of law and order." Media censorship was seen last during the 1970s, when Indira Gandhi imposed emergency rule. The suspension of all civil and political rights soon followed, as well as political censorship. It was the only dictatorship that modern India has ever witnessed. While this legislation cannot be compared with the Emergency, the agenda to control free speech is alarmingly similar. From jude.camponi at googlemail.com Sat Sep 29 01:08:59 2007 From: jude.camponi at googlemail.com (jude camponi) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:38:59 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Introduction & Call to action Message-ID: <54b8f7fc0709281238g280f3cbeubc4650547f1aeef8@mail.gmail.com> Hi there I'm Jude, from the UK and I've been moved to contact you guys in the hope of building up a movement to drive filth from the blogosphere. I have always stayed on the peripheries of blogging - only reading blogs that I feel an affinity for, such as http://christiansexuality.wordpress.com However, when http://pimpmydaughter.wordpress.com/ was brought to my attention I felt that something needed to be done. As Christians, we cannot stand by and let children be exploited. So please join with me in taking a stand. Complain to wordpress, leave comments that make our disapproval clear. I don't know all the answers but I hope that something can be done. Jude From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Sep 27 17:50:34 2007 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:20:34 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Yamuna Satyagraha, Message-ID: <625F6E55-EA00-4FCA-B835-76E348E91D1D@sarai.net> for those interested in the river front..... best j PRESS INVITATION Dear Sir/ Madam In spite of 59 days of Yamuna Satyagraha, the government is not paying any heed. Expert agencies have given no permission to the constructions on the riverbed, yet they are going on at a full pace. The youth, especially the students of Delhi University have decided to take up the cause. Are you aware that in our city we are losing 60 million years Old River forever just for a 9 days event in this city? Are you aware that all expert bodies have denied permission to construct on the Yamuna riverbed? Are you aware that the Govt. has never explored any alternative site for the Games village? Why is Govt. so bent upon constructing Games Village on the riverbed? Are you aware that the initial budget for holding Games in Delhi was Rs1700crore and now it is 23,000 crores? Are you aware that in the Games winning bid to Commonwealth Games Federation, the terms and conditions stipulated that the Games Village would be given for university accommodation after the Games are over? Whereas, now Govt. has allowed the builder to sell flats to public at cost of Rs. 2 crores per flat. Can you smell a scam at cost of our natural heritage and a misuse of sentiments associated with students and sports? Complete water table of city will GO DRY because of concretization of river… The site itself is flood prone, lies in seismic zone – IV and is most vulnerable to natural disasters like earthquake.. Some youths on 18th Sept barged into Delhi Assembly and sought answer to these questions during the last day of Monsoon session. They were taken into custody. Why did the youth go this extent in a manner as Shahid Bhagat Singh did for independence of country? A youth march shall be organized at Delhi University tomorrow on 28th Sept.. The venue is Vivekananda Statue, Arts Faculty, Delhi University. Most of the colleges and departments of north campus will participate in the march. FIRST YOUTH MARCH FOR YAMUNA in Delhi University Against LOOT and KILLING of Yamuna 28TH SEPT. ARTS FACULTY 1:00pm YOU ARE INVITED TO COVER THE EVENT AND WITNESS THE CHANGE IN THE MAKING. -- -- "YOUTH FOR JUSTICE" -we are the change we want to see Kapil- 9818066041, Preety- 9891108637, Vikram- 9990200243, Abhijeet-9953037570 www.y4j.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 29 08:46:54 2007 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Introduction & Call to action In-Reply-To: <54b8f7fc0709281238g280f3cbeubc4650547f1aeef8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <927693.33215.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> why should only Christians be concerned about it? --- jude camponi wrote: > Hi there > > I'm Jude, from the UK and I've been moved to contact > you guys in the hope of > building up a movement to drive filth from the > blogosphere. I have always > stayed on the peripheries of blogging - only reading > blogs that I feel an > affinity for, such as > http://christiansexuality.wordpress.com > > However, when http://pimpmydaughter.wordpress.com/ > was brought to my > attention I felt that something needed to be done. > As Christians, we cannot > stand by and let children be exploited. So please > join with me in taking a > stand. Complain to wordpress, leave comments that > make our disapproval > clear. I don't know all the answers but I hope that > something can be done. > > Jude > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From theunderscoredhood at gmail.com Sat Sep 29 11:36:35 2007 From: theunderscoredhood at gmail.com (Raheema Begum) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:36:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 12 days since Message-ID: Dear All, It's been 12 days since the One State Solution Week 2007, and I thought I would share with you all the concluding post on Kauntext. For all the posts and entries, context and criticism, look for OSSW'07 on your search engine. This is going to be a bi-annual event, lets hope it picks up and gathers momentum.I invite comments and criticism, write in at onestatesolution at gmail.com. One State Solution Week[12 days Since] Best, Raheema. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Sep 29 12:40:50 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Good to see Message-ID: <818418.93514.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All, Thats splendid response. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Sep 29 16:05:06 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 03:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Report on the Screening of Jash-e-Azadi at Yale... In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709281106r75043dd0ve685be4d2f35a78a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <849909.8564.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All, Its a nice feeling to see me on SARAI again. Agree or disagee facts are always facts. Thats a nice protest againt Jash-e-Azadi, but what to say here on SARAI. Habituate people like Tapas(-ve feelings for woman, and Culture) will write some circastic comments. There are Anamikas,Junaids and many more uncivilized. But I astonish about this particular blog and the persons ATTAIR. http://indersalim.livejournal.com/?skip=50. Regards, Dhatri. Pawan Durani wrote: Sanjay Kak Exposed @ YALE Dear All: On Thursday September 20th Mr. Sanjay Kak's movie Jashn-e-Azadi (yajynya has become Jashn-e)was screened in the Louis McMillan Auditorium of the Yale University. Rajni Ji and I attended the screening. The screening was sponsored by Ms Mridhu Rai, Associate Professor mridu.rai at yale.edu. She has recently published a book Hindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects: Islam Rights & the history of Kashmir. (Apparently this book was part of the motivation for Mr. Sanjay Kak to make the movie. Given below in parenthesis is her back ground. (Mridu Rai joined the department in July 2001 as an assistant professor. She was educated at Delhi University; the Centre for Historical Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi; and Columbia University, where she received a PhD in modern south Asian history. Her doctoral research focused on the problem of religion and politics in the making of protest in modern Kashmir between the 1840s and the 1940s. In 2004 it culminated in her book, Hindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects: Islam, Rights, and the History of Kashmir < http://www.yale.edu/history/faculty/materials/rai-hindu.html> . Professor Rai's new research turns to the region of Bihar, to explore the relationships between caste, territory, region and nation as they evolved from the period of British colonial rule into the postcolonial) There were 23 people in all present in the screening hall. That included Mr. Sanjay Kak and us two. Most of the attendants were from the South Asian stud department of Indian origin. There was one or two students of Pakistani origin and may be two or three of American and European descent. The documentary is about two and a half hour long monologue. The thrust of the documentary is to manipulated to portray the burning desire for the freedom among 'Kashmiris' (read Kashmiri Muslims). The movie touches upon the 500 years of colonization of Kashmir. It was interesting to note the wordings of narration and the imagery of this narration. Mr Kak introduced the Kalhanna's Rajatarangani as the Hindu rule of Kashmir. He also stated the "Hindu" rule of Kashmir before 1948. But then he chooses to describe the 500 years of pre-Dogra rule as the colonial rule of Turks, Afghans, Mughals, and other nationalities as if it was not an Islamic rule. In that one sentence he tries to pass the suffering under these colonizers as the sufferings of Muslims and not of Hindus. That during this period 100% Kashmiri Hindu population was reduced to at most 25% of the population was presented as Muslim suffering. He quotes Kalhanna "that Kashmir can not be conquered by colonization but by spiritual merit", as the ethos of Kashmiri Muslims. That the Muslims (both foreign and the converted) were the rulers under whose reign Kashmiri Hindu were massacred, humiliated and forced out of Kashmir (as evidenced by the Saaraswats and Vaadama Ayers and Kashmiri of Gujarat) and converted to Islam is completely presented as the sufferings of the Muslims. That since the 1948 till 1990 the successive J&K Governments were formed by the National conference (previously "Muslim Conference") and the people at the helm were Kashmiri Muslims is also presented as the colonization by the Indians. That this Government systematically marginalized the Hindus of Kashmir by putting reservations for the majority, snatching any landed property with out compensation (there by violating the property rights of a minority) is portrayed as the land reform act of the Government. The sole livelihood of the Kashmiri Hindus through education was denied and they were forced out of state (to achieve Islamization) is also supposed to have happened because of the colonization by India. That 1947 incursions of Pakistan and the development of Islamic Fundamentalism with support from Pakistan and the outsiders is completely glossed over. Even though the mention is made of the foreign Islamic mercenaries in Kashmir but it is portrayed as acceptable and not such an important issue, where as presence of Indian troops and the Indian tourists is presented as the yoke on the local Muslims. (Who shown as pulling the tourists snowy upslope of the Gulmarg.) The presentation of Shaheed (A Islamic category used for the Shahaadat ) and the Mujahideen (An Islamic religious category used for the fighters of the faith) is presented as freedom fighters. The time and again portrayal of the "Muslim Cemeteries" and dead Muslim Mujahideen is lamentable but their killing and raping of the innocent victims both hindu (and Muslims) is accepted as the justifiable for the Azadi. Mr. Kak mentiones 200 dead and 160,000 migrated in bold numbers with the small print of "in one year". One wonders why did he choose only one year numbers to show about the Hindu sufferings but boldly says 60,000 total dead or lost in the last 15 years. This choice is made show the balance in his approach like a chameleon Indian leftist/secularist. Finally when the documentary was screened we were the first one to raise hand for questions. We turned toward the audience and challenged the very notion this being a struggle for the Azadi. We put forth that this is movement for the Islamization of Kashmir. We also pointed out the 500 years of colonization Mr. Kak mentions is 500 years of Islamic rule in which our population was reduced from 1055 to 20% . It was Kashmiri Hindu tragedies which Mr. Kak is portraying as the Muslim tragedies. We pointed out that the first act of this movement in 1990 was to throw out 400 hundred thousand Hindus from the valley and became refuge in their own country. If it was a Azadi movement why would valley be cleansed of the non-Muslim minorities. That scenario fits the Islamization movement better. We asked, why would all the imagery and the language of this movement be couched in the Islamic categorization? Why would Arabic be used instead of Kashmiri language? Why would the names of the Kashmiri place names be changed to Arabacized and Islamic names? Why would the past Hindu history be denied? Why would non-Kashmiri foreign Muslim mercenaries be allowed in and create havoc in Kashmir? Why would Pakistan be so heavily involved? Mr. Kak had no answers for any of these; he tried to pass the Islamic language as the normal use of religion in freedom movements. But I asked why was not inclusive religious symbolism used for the independence? Kak admitted to the audience that there was Jihad like situation created for Kashmiri Hindus who had to leave valley. Eventually I was asked to allow others to ask questions. But there were only two other people who asked one question each, one on the lines of secularism and the other, a Pakistani, gave some comments on state of JKLF in Pakistan. We attended the dinner after the movie and we continued to occupy Mr. Kak's and several others attention on the dishonest portrayal of the Kashmir issue. During dinner we distributed the copies of Ashokji Pandits Documentary ....And world remained silent.... to some of the attendees and requested them to watch it and pass it on to other students. That is the story from Yale... Thanks --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Sep 29 19:30:38 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:30:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tehelka - now in Hindi. Message-ID: <9c06aab30709290700w8e5da4cx232f7aedacb46b47@mail.gmail.com> Tehelka now has a Hindi website - www.tehelkahindi.com Do have a look. From venkatt2k at gmail.com Sat Sep 29 19:34:44 2007 From: venkatt2k at gmail.com (venkat t) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:34:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seventh Posting: Migrant (construction) workers on the IT corridor Message-ID: <388da81f0709290704g5e68d417n6781258555add7e8@mail.gmail.com> Interview with the labour commissioner of Kanchepuram, We had a lengthy discussion with the commissioner of labour, district of Kanchepuram on the 27th of September. The discussion revolved around the Inter State Migrant Workers act and its implementation. As most part of the IT corridor falls under the jurisdiction of Kanchepuram district, the labour commissioner of Kanchepuram was the person in-charge for implementing the labour acts. When asked about the number of registered establishments, he said "we do not have the numbers of registered sites as the establishments have to register with the state office. But there are 76 contractors to whom we have given licenses under the act. We estimate as per their license agreements that there are 9490 migrant workers but we don't know the actual figures. This could be far lower than the actual." The labour commissioner said that when ever they go on an inspection, they check for the Identity of the establishment, name and address of the establishment, verify who the principal employer is. They also see whether all the contractors are licensed and if they have registered all the workers. They also check for the registration certificates issued by the state labour department as verify if there is any contravention between the cited work and the work entrusted to the contractors. He added "the act comes into force only in a site that employs more than 5 migrant contract workers, so when we go to inspect a site, we get signatures from a minimum of 25 employees so that the site comes under the ambit of contract workers act as well as migrant workers act." "if the employer is not registered, or if we find that some of his contractors are not licensed, we ask him to do the same immediately. There is no grace period for it" Speaking further about inspections the labour commissioner said that they generally check if the welfare measures that are listed in the act have been met. Some of the amenities are potable drinking water, adequate toilet facilities for men and women, a readily available first aid box, free and hygienic accommodation, and canteen facility for workers in a site that engages more than 100 workers. He added "the canteen should be run in a no loss, no profit motive". They also verify the wage registers to check the minimum wage, which is Rs 147.68/- (including DA). When asked what is the recourse if the contractors fail to provide the following amenities, he said "if the contractors fail to provide the amenities, the principal employer has to provide the same with 15 days." Speaking about enforcement he said that it is best to be persuasive before taking recourse to prosecution. "we have a format or a checklist, this is not in any rules, we have framed it with our experience, we go on joint visits to an establishment, we call this joint raid. The team usually consists of the assistant labour inspector, deputy inspector and the inspector himself; occasionally even I go to the inspection. We get signatures from atleast 25 persons who work their as evidence for our inspection. We note down the contraventions and violations in our inspection report and send to the principal employer an inspection order, asking him to reply to the same or rectify the contraventions. If there is a satisfactory answer, we go for a re inspection. But if there is none within 7 days, we send a show cause notice and if even this is neglected we charge sheet the employer." He said that only the deputy inspector and above are empowered to press charges and the assistant inspector is a mere executive authority. He said that thus there are but 3 officers for the entire district, (2 deputy inspectors and one inspector) who have to do most of the work. they are also not provided with staff and infrastructure or even vehicles to inspect establishments that are all around the district. Upon this they have to enforce 32 acts, which include weights and measures as well as abolition of child labour act. Speaking about the hardships he said we have to also file cases and attend hearings. He added that it was also hard getting convictions in most of the cases as they lack hard evidence as the migrant workers keep moving and also end up with out of court settlements. The district labour office has filed 12 cases within the interstate migrant workers act in the last month or two. These mostly include contraventions of provision of amenities. Discussing about the accidents he said that while the Inter state migrant workers act does not directly deal with accidents, they use the workmen's compensation act, which empowers them to compensate the worker for accidents at the work site that cause partial, temporary or permanent disability and also for death. The Deputy Commissioner of labour (state) hears the complaints and settles the disputes. But he added that he has not come across many serious accidents among migrant workers. Discussing about the condition of the migrant workers, he said that many come from districts in Andhra and Orissa and only a few come from the northern states. He added that they work really hard and come with a single motive of making money. "They do earn more than what they would earn in their villages; this prompts them to move here. But it is the contractors who drain the workers of their wages, it is hard to catch them as the workers never reveal for fear of losing their work" he further added "this is because of a complete lack of awareness among the workers, they would even resist us. They will hesitate to make a signature in the paper and will seek permission from the contractor to sign." He also noted that among the workers, the workers from Andhra were generally illiterate while the workers from central India could at least sign their names. He said that there is a clause to collect a security deposit form the principal employer for every worker they employ. "I have asked the employers to deposit a security deposit which would pay for the worker's return fare. This would enable me to use the money to at least send the worker back home if he has some problem with the employer and is unable to get any pay and is thrown out of the job." He went on saying "many don't use it as they don't even know that they could come to us" After the meeting he took us to one of the sites that they have inspected at the SIPCOT industrial area in Siruseri. (To be contd) From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Sat Sep 29 22:03:10 2007 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Tehelka - now in Hindi. Message-ID: <954086.76030.qm@web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is anyone else using firefox running on MAC OSX? In my/this environment, firefox wont render the font, I just get ??????? for this tehelka site and everything else. It is fine using safari. Another reason I am asking is because my bombay taxi driver conversations podcast blog is now also in hindi (see URL below) - and I haven't been able to get firefox on MAC to render hindi font. and it isn't just hindi, it is a few of the other UTF-8 fonts. I have posted to the firefox forums (it isnt a MAC problem) but no solution. If anyone else on this list is running same environment (MAC OSX 10.4.10 + firefox 2.0.0.x) and is getting hindi font, please contact me. best, kabi http://meterdown.wordpress.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Shivam Vij To: sarai list Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 7:30:38 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Tehelka - now in Hindi. Tehelka now has a Hindi website - www.tehelkahindi.com Do have a look. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 29 23:45:28 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:45:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Intellectuals Operate Again ...... Message-ID: <6b79f1a70709291115t1a1ad475h6bbb20c4a1288644@mail.gmail.com> 1. India wins 20/20 Cricket world cup. On the *second* day Kerela and Haryana Govt announce rewards for players hailing from their respective states. 2. On the *third* day Psuedo Secular ....one legged....media start criticising Gujarat (Modi) Govt for not announcing any reward for Pathan brothers....which anyway Gujarat Govt announces later on the third day. An image of Modi being anti muslim is splashed across all news papers by so called "intellectuals" and Psuedo secularists . 3. On the *fifth *day after winning the 20/20 Cricket world cup Delhi Govt announces reward for Gautham Gambhir & same day Tamil nadu Govt announces reward for Dinesh Karthik......the same Psuedo secularist dont compare it with anything. Everyone is silent. Just an example to show how appeasement works in this country. How intellectauls pass their verdicts.....and how psuedo secularists are hell bent on creating controversies and attacking Gujarat (Modi ) Govt .....even for a non issue Pawan Durani From anirudhsbh at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 01:01:56 2007 From: anirudhsbh at gmail.com (Anirudh) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:01:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Intellectuals Operate Again ...... In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70709291115t1a1ad475h6bbb20c4a1288644@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70709291115t1a1ad475h6bbb20c4a1288644@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wow. You echo my sentiments completely. I live in Ahmedabad, Gujarat and Times of India, like everywhere else in India is the most widely read English daily. Did I just call it a "daily"? It's become more of a polarised tabloid, or a political propaganda sheet, bent on inciting and preventing young minds to form an opinion of their own. I would say that I would have personally preferred to read "The Hindu" or "The Statesman", it's a pity that the same edition would not be available on the same day. On the day that the TOI criticized the Modi government (emphasis supplied, implied etc.), "Is Modi going to losen purse strings for the Pathans?", had all the distinctive features of a gang-up against Modi. This is not to imply that Modi is a saint, but the way in which TOI has abused it's position as the "conscience-keeper" of the society is deplorable. In case you have not noticed, during one of TOI's highly publicised campaign to save the Gir Lion from poachers - they hollered that the image of the Gir Lion can be likened to that of Gujarat, citing many reasons including: "Gujarat's image as a successful place for investment, capitalisation, industries etc", while on the same page criticsing Modi for using a religious guru to "influence voter" (apparently libellous allegations and content with dubious sourcing is regularly added by the sheet); and only the day before they were lamenting about how Modi "misquotes" the development in the state, when actually there has been no development at all. TOI sucks. I wish I had something better to read every morning, without the polarisation, without the exaggeration, without any agenda. Just news, honest, neutral and giving all point of views. If it were possible, I wouldn't even use TOI as an asswipe. --Anirudh On 9/29/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > 1. India wins 20/20 Cricket world cup. On the *second* day Kerela and > Haryana Govt announce rewards for players hailing from their respective > states. > > 2. On the *third* day Psuedo Secular ....one legged....media start > criticising Gujarat (Modi) Govt for not announcing any reward for Pathan > brothers....which anyway Gujarat Govt announces later on the third day. An > image of Modi being anti muslim is splashed across all news papers by so > called "intellectuals" and Psuedo secularists . > > 3. On the *fifth *day after winning the 20/20 Cricket world cup Delhi Govt > announces reward for Gautham Gambhir & same day Tamil nadu Govt announces > reward for Dinesh Karthik......the same Psuedo secularist dont compare it > with anything. Everyone is silent. > > Just an example to show how appeasement works in this country. How > intellectauls pass their verdicts.....and how psuedo secularists are hell > bent on creating controversies and attacking Gujarat (Modi ) Govt > .....even > for a non issue > > Pawan Durani > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pkray11 at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 01:32:28 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:32:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tehelka - now in Hindi Message-ID: <98f331e00709291302p40891758ke1eb1e42e951c6e2@mail.gmail.com> ACHHA HAI.... From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 30 08:27:26 2007 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Burma Message-ID: <320289.16399.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Eddie Woods wrote: Hello People, We're concerned about Burma, right? But no one can do anything. Except talk. And make useless threats. The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. The generals don't care. They never did, they're not going to now. Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. We know China COULD do something. But it won't. They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese regime. Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. More than 400 companies. And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & Russia). Well, there are organizations that can do something. To force China to do something. Sports federations. Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. (Which it never should have been awarded. With its godawful human rights record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be selling, made by what practically amounts to slave labor.) Urge your national sports federations to boycott the Olympics! The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' necks. Stop selling them guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. Make them give political power back to those they stole it from, the people of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. We'll skip the Olympics till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap trinkets and t-shirts will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned toys to the world." Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. But YOU can tell them to anyway. You can find most of the international ones at http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 -193278-nav-list,00.html and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk to them, twist their arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports is business, too. France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to quit Burma, but maybe a handful or more pole-vaulters will. Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: pressure your cricket teams and federations to boycott India. Until they cease arms sales to Burma's dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future democratic Burmese government will be more than happy to do business with you." I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to Russia. But two out of the big bad three would be great for starters. Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop running tourism ads for China. You know, the folks who execute more of their citizens than any other nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for the bullets. [The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for the title + first line) is appended below as well as attached; this for the benefit of those on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open attachments.] Go for it, eh! Amen, EDDIE MANDALAY On the road to Mandalay, Where Buddhist monks march and pray With their begging bowls turned upside down, Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, A brutal regime strains to hold sway. Yet in the grim face of tyranny It is the Sangha, and the people, Who must seize the day. On the streets of Rangoon, Even yesteryear was not too soon For those murderous generals To be thoroughly swept away. Common soldiers, hold your fire! Turn your weapons on the liars! Build a pyre, enormously tall! Set it alight, let it burn bright With the sizzling corpse Of oppression overthrown! Flames of freedom, please prevail! As Burma valiantly seeks to sail Into a new and fragrant dawn. Burma oh Burma, May the spirit of Buddha Guide your future for evermore. EDDIE WOODS September 2007 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html From anirudhsbh at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 11:13:40 2007 From: anirudhsbh at gmail.com (Anirudh) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:13:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma In-Reply-To: References: <320289.16399.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Anirudh Date: Sep 30, 2007 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Burma To: Yousuf India has always been in an eternal dilemma: Whether to have volatile democracies in it's neighbourhood or relatively-stable dictatorships. And I don't think we are moving towards a concrete solution either. :-( As for boycotting the Chinese Olympics, I think that would segregate them even more from the world, which is something we cannot afford to do. India must maintain strong cultural and economical ties in it's neighbour hood, for it's own good. - --Anirudh On 9/30/07, Yousuf wrote: > > Eddie Woods wrote: > > Hello People, > > We're concerned about Burma, right? > But no one can do anything. > Except talk. And make useless threats. > The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. > Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. > The generals don't care. > They never did, they're not going to now. > Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. > > We know China COULD do something. But it won't. > They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese > regime. > Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. > More than 400 companies. > And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & > Russia). > > Well, there are organizations that can do something. > To force China to do something. > Sports federations. > Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. > (Which it never should have been awarded. With its > godawful human rights > record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be > selling, made by what > practically amounts to slave labor.) > > Urge your national sports federations to boycott the > Olympics! > The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' > necks. Stop selling them > guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San > Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. > Make them give political power back to those they > stole it from, the people > of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. > We'll skip the Olympics > till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap > trinkets and t-shirts > will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned > toys to the world." > > Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. > But YOU can tell them > to anyway. You can find most of the international ones > at > > http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 > -193278-nav-list,00.html > and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk > to them, twist their > arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports > is business, too. > France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to > quit Burma, but maybe a > handful or more pole-vaulters will. > > Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: > pressure your cricket teams > and federations to boycott India. Until they cease > arms sales to Burma's > dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future > democratic Burmese > government will be more than happy to do business with > you." > > I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to > Russia. But two out of the > big bad three would be great for starters. > > Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop > running tourism ads for > China. You know, the folks who execute more of their > citizens than any other > nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for > the bullets. > > [The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for > the title + first > line) is appended below as well as attached; this for > the benefit of those > on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open > attachments.] > > Go for it, eh! > > Amen, EDDIE > > > MANDALAY > > On the road to Mandalay, > Where Buddhist monks march and pray > With their begging bowls turned upside down, > Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, > A brutal regime strains to hold sway. > Yet in the grim face of tyranny > It is the Sangha, and the people, > Who must seize the day. > > On the streets of Rangoon, > Even yesteryear was not too soon > For those murderous generals > To be thoroughly swept away. > > Common soldiers, hold your fire! > Turn your weapons on the liars! > Build a pyre, enormously tall! > Set it alight, let it burn bright > With the sizzling corpse > Of oppression overthrown! > > Flames of freedom, please prevail! > As Burma valiantly seeks to sail > Into a new and fragrant dawn. > Burma oh Burma, > May the spirit of Buddha > Guide your future for evermore. > > > EDDIE WOODS > September 2007 > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! > Autos. > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From anirudhsbh at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 13:07:07 2007 From: anirudhsbh at gmail.com (Anirudh) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:07:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma In-Reply-To: <110893.46943.qm@web25414.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <110893.46943.qm@web25414.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Please, everyone, use the "Reply to all" function in Gmail or in your respective email service ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ayush Date: Sep 30, 2007 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma To: Anirudh Apart from China we need to look within. What are we doing about it. Being the biggest democracy and upholder of human rights(well we pretend to) we need to do something rather than just think of our economic interests in the region. If we continue to behave this way,in my opinion, we would soon be like US - supporting and having dictators and repressive regimes as our best friends for the sake of economic interests. And ceratainly ones culture does not strength by endorsing or standing mum over repression - ceratinly not for India - where non vilonence and peacefulful protests are inherent Ayush ---- Original Message ---- From: Anirudh To: reader_list Sent: Sunday, 30 September, 2007 11:13:40 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Anirudh Date: Sep 30, 2007 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Burma To: Yousuf India has always been in an eternal dilemma: Whether to have volatile democracies in it's neighbourhood or relatively-stable dictatorships. And I don't think we are moving towards a concrete solution either. :-( As for boycotting the Chinese Olympics, I think that would segregate them even more from the world, which is something we cannot afford to do. India must maintain strong cultural and economical ties in it's neighbour hood, for it's own good. - --Anirudh On 9/30/07, Yousuf wrote: > > Eddie Woods wrote: > > Hello People, > > We're concerned about Burma, right? > But no one can do anything. > Except talk. And make useless threats. > The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. > Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. > The generals don't care. > They never did, they're not going to now. > Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. > > We know China COULD do something. But it won't. > They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese > regime. > Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. > More than 400 companies. > And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & > Russia). > > Well, there are organizations that can do something. > To force China to do something. > Sports federations. > Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. > (Which it never should have been awarded. With its > godawful human rights > record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be > selling, made by what > practically amounts to slave labor.) > > Urge your national sports federations to boycott the > Olympics! > The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' > necks. Stop selling them > guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San > Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. > Make them give political power back to those they > stole it from, the people > of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. > We'll skip the Olympics > till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap > trinkets and t-shirts > will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned > toys to the world." > > Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. > But YOU can tell them > to anyway. You can find most of the international ones > at > > http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 > -193278-nav-list,00.html > and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk > to them, twist their > arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports > is business, too. > France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to > quit Burma, but maybe a > handful or more pole-vaulters will. > > Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: > pressure your cricket teams > and federations to boycott India. Until they cease > arms sales to Burma's > dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future > democratic Burmese > government will be more than happy to do business with > you." > > I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to > Russia. But two out of the > big bad three would be great for starters. > > Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop > running tourism ads for > China. You know, the folks who execute more of their > citizens than any other > nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for > the bullets. > > [The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for > the title + first > line) is appended below as well as attached; this for > the benefit of those > on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open > attachments.] > > Go for it, eh! > > Amen, EDDIE > > > MANDALAY > > On the road to Mandalay, > Where Buddhist monks march and pray > With their begging bowls turned upside down, > Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, > A brutal regime strains to hold sway. > Yet in the grim face of tyranny > It is the Sangha, and the people, > Who must seize the day. > > On the streets of Rangoon, > Even yesteryear was not too soon > For those murderous generals > To be thoroughly swept away. > > Common soldiers, hold your fire! > Turn your weapons on the liars! > Build a pyre, enormously tall! > Set it alight, let it burn bright > With the sizzling corpse > Of oppression overthrown! > > Flames of freedom, please prevail! > As Burma valiantly seeks to sail > Into a new and fragrant dawn. > Burma oh Burma, > May the spirit of Buddha > Guide your future for evermore. > > > EDDIE WOODS > September 2007 > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! > Autos. > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> - ------------------------------ For email that puts you in control, choose Yahoo! Mail . From anirudhsbh at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 13:13:47 2007 From: anirudhsbh at gmail.com (Anirudh) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:13:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma In-Reply-To: <110893.46943.qm@web25414.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <110893.46943.qm@web25414.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ayush, We have never pretended to be the "biggest upholder of human rights", don't know where you got that one from. India, for one, is plagued by many problems, we have many issues to be concerned about which does not leave much space [for our government] to shift its focus to our immediate neighbourhood. Which needs to change... This would not be a place to trigger another round of huge discussions over the kind of philosophy, policies and code of morality and ethics that countries follow... but to try and understand what is in our best interest. Diplomacy is not as simple as most of us make it sound like discussion forums. Each and every step has to be taken with circumspection and foresight. --Anirudh PS: We are not international policemen either. Let other countries deal with their own problems, lest the image of India becomes one that the United States currently has in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. On 9/30/07, ayush wrote: > > Apart from China we need to look within. What are we doing about it. > Being the biggest democracy and upholder of human rights(well we pretend to) > we need to do something rather than just think of our economic interests in > the region. If we continue to behave this way,in my opinion, we would soon > be like US - supporting and having dictators and repressive regimes as our > best friends for the sake of economic interests. And ceratainly ones culture > does not strength by endorsing or standing mum over repression - ceratinly > not for India - where non vilonence and peacefulful protests are inherent > > > > > Ayush > > > > > > ---- Original Message ---- > From: Anirudh > To: reader_list > Sent: Sunday, 30 September, 2007 11:13:40 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Anirudh > Date: Sep 30, 2007 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Burma > To: Yousuf > > India has always been in an eternal dilemma: Whether to have volatile > democracies in it's neighbourhood or relatively-stable dictatorships. And > I > don't think we are moving towards a concrete solution either. :-( > > As for boycotting the Chinese Olympics, I think that would segregate them > even more from the world, which is something we cannot afford to do. India > must maintain strong cultural and economical ties in it's neighbour hood, > for it's own good. > > - --Anirudh > > On 9/30/07, Yousuf wrote: > > > > Eddie Woods wrote: > > > > Hello People, > > > > We're concerned about Burma, right? > > But no one can do anything. > > Except talk. And make useless threats. > > The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. > > Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. > > The generals don't care. > > They never did, they're not going to now. > > Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. > > > > We know China COULD do something. But it won't. > > They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese > > regime. > > Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. > > More than 400 companies. > > And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & > > Russia). > > > > Well, there are organizations that can do something. > > To force China to do something. > > Sports federations. > > Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. > > (Which it never should have been awarded. With its > > godawful human rights > > record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be > > selling, made by what > > practically amounts to slave labor.) > > > > Urge your national sports federations to boycott the > > Olympics! > > The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' > > necks. Stop selling them > > guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San > > Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. > > Make them give political power back to those they > > stole it from, the people > > of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. > > We'll skip the Olympics > > till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap > > trinkets and t-shirts > > will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned > > toys to the world." > > > > Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. > > But YOU can tell them > > to anyway. You can find most of the international ones > > at > > > > > http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 > > -193278-nav-list,00.html > > and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk > > to them, twist their > > arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports > > is business, too. > > France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to > > quit Burma, but maybe a > > handful or more pole-vaulters will. > > > > Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: > > pressure your cricket teams > > and federations to boycott India. Until they cease > > arms sales to Burma's > > dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future > > democratic Burmese > > government will be more than happy to do business with > > you." > > > > I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to > > Russia. But two out of the > > big bad three would be great for starters. > > > > Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop > > running tourism ads for > > China. You know, the folks who execute more of their > > citizens than any other > > nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for > > the bullets. > > > > [The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for > > the title + first > > line) is appended below as well as attached; this for > > the benefit of those > > on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open > > attachments.] > > > > Go for it, eh! > > > > Amen, EDDIE > > > > > > MANDALAY > > > > On the road to Mandalay, > > Where Buddhist monks march and pray > > With their begging bowls turned upside down, > > Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, > > A brutal regime strains to hold sway. > > Yet in the grim face of tyranny > > It is the Sangha, and the people, > > Who must seize the day. > > > > On the streets of Rangoon, > > Even yesteryear was not too soon > > For those murderous generals > > To be thoroughly swept away. > > > > Common soldiers, hold your fire! > > Turn your weapons on the liars! > > Build a pyre, enormously tall! > > Set it alight, let it burn bright > > With the sizzling corpse > > Of oppression overthrown! > > > > Flames of freedom, please prevail! > > As Burma valiantly seeks to sail > > Into a new and fragrant dawn. > > Burma oh Burma, > > May the spirit of Buddha > > Guide your future for evermore. > > > > > > EDDIE WOODS > > September 2007 > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! > > Autos. > > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > For email that puts you in control, choose Yahoo! Mail > . > From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Sun Sep 30 18:33:26 2007 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 30 Sep 2007 13:03:26 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 151 Message-ID: <20070930130326.17870.qmail@webmail100.rediffmail.com>   Dear Pawan, I am also equally astonished to know about selective interpretation of history. Incidentally Iran despite being an Islamic republic has not denied its pre Islamic past, in terms of preserving old monuments which are symbols of Greek and Zoroastrian settlements. You had mentioned about the suffering, humiliation and displcement of the Kashmiri Pundits (as evidenced by the Saaraswats and Vaadama Ayers etc. I would like to disagree on this count. Kashmiri Pundits sufferings are enormous/distinct/too complex to merit such comparisons with other groups. Probably one can compare their plight with that of jews in Nazi Germany, Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Palestinians in the west bank Incidentally Brahmins got displaced in Tamilnadu when their undue/unjust monopoly was broken through affirmative actions by the State. While one can't deny that some of the state sponsored actions and also the role of non Brahmin upper caste under DK and DMK caused substantial damage to the civil society, in the garb of social engineering and remodeling. Brahmins left the state in large numbers to explore other avenues and were able to recoup as well as reconcile with the new social order through their own skills. In the present scenario they are viewed as an innocuous as well as insignificant group. Ironically they are also seen as a neutral group by some sections which have clash of interests with other caste groups. Ironically it is the non brahmin groups that are getting more radicalized and adhering to brahminical canons - courtesy the DMK and AIADMK. To put in simple words the suffering and brutalization of the Kashmiri Pundits cannot be, by no stretch of imagination be compared to the saraswats and tamil brahmins. A small clarification vadamas are one of the sub division of the many within Iyers (Shavites), there are primarilly two divisions withinthe Tamil Brahmins ie Iyers (Shavites) and Iyengars (Vaishnavites) who together roughly constitute 3% of Tamilnadu population. One final addition to what Anirudh had said: In fact the government of TamilNadu had also not declared the prize money for Dinesh Karthik, but that was conviniently ignored for 'Dravidian' digressions don't merit nor cause such consternation. I think there shouldn't have been such a vulgar display of nationalism sorry competing distorted notions of secularism.I think those who share your sentiments can read Mukul Kesavan's article on Anglophone Indians in the Telegraph - 'WAYS OF AN ANTIQUE LAND - Anglophone Indians and their odd habits' The link is given below http://www.telegraphindia.com/1070906/asp/opinion/story_8280162.asp On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Intellectuals Operate Again ...... (Anirudh) > 2. Re: Tehelka - now in Hindi (prakash ray) > 3. Burma (Yousuf) > 4. Fwd: Burma (Anirudh) > 5. Fwd: Burma (Anirudh) > 6. Re: Fwd: Burma (Anirudh) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:01:56 +0530 > From: Anirudh >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Intellectuals Operate Again ...... >To: "Pawan Durani" >Cc: reader_list >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >Wow. You echo my sentiments completely. I live in Ahmedabad, Gujarat and >Times of India, like everywhere else in India is the most widely read >English daily. > >Did I just call it a "daily"? It's become more of a polarised tabloid, or a >political propaganda sheet, bent on inciting and preventing young minds to >form an opinion of their own. I would say that I would have personally >preferred to read "The Hindu" or "The Statesman", it's a pity that the same >edition would not be available on the same day. > >On the day that the TOI criticized the Modi government (emphasis supplied, >implied etc.), "Is Modi going to losen purse strings for the Pathans?", had >all the distinctive features of a gang-up against Modi. This is not to imply >that Modi is a saint, but the way in which TOI has abused it's position as >the "conscience-keeper" of the society is deplorable. > >In case you have not noticed, during one of TOI's highly publicised campaign >to save the Gir Lion from poachers - they hollered that the image of the Gir >Lion can be likened to that of Gujarat, citing many reasons including: >"Gujarat's image as a successful place for investment, capitalisation, >industries etc", while on the same page criticsing Modi for using a >religious guru to "influence voter" (apparently libellous allegations and >content with dubious sourcing is regularly added by the sheet); and only the >day before they were lamenting about how Modi "misquotes" the development in >the state, when actually there has been no development at all. > >TOI sucks. I wish I had something better to read every morning, without the >polarisation, without the exaggeration, without any agenda. Just news, >honest, neutral and giving all point of views. If it were possible, I >wouldn't even use TOI as an asswipe. > >--Anirudh > >On 9/29/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > 1. India wins 20/20 Cricket world cup. On the *second* day Kerela and > > Haryana Govt announce rewards for players hailing from their respective > > states. > > > > 2. On the *third* day Psuedo Secular ....one legged....media start > > criticising Gujarat (Modi) Govt for not announcing any reward for Pathan > > brothers....which anyway Gujarat Govt announces later on the third day. An > > image of Modi being anti muslim is splashed across all news papers by so > > called "intellectuals" and Psuedo secularists . > > > > 3. On the *fifth *day after winning the 20/20 Cricket world cup Delhi Govt > > announces reward for Gautham Gambhir & same day Tamil nadu Govt announces > > reward for Dinesh Karthik......the same Psuedo secularist dont compare it > > with anything. Everyone is silent. > > > > Just an example to show how appeasement works in this country. How > > intellectauls pass their verdicts.....and how psuedo secularists are hell > > bent on creating controversies and attacking Gujarat (Modi ) Govt > > .....even > > for a non issue > > > > Pawan Durani > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:32:28 +0530 > From: "prakash ray" >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Tehelka - now in Hindi >To: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: > <98f331e00709291302p40891758ke1eb1e42e951c6e2 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >ACHHA HAI.... > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:57:26 -0700 (PDT) > From: Yousuf >Subject: [Reader-list] Burma >To: sarai list , asiafellows at yahoogroups.com, > somkamol , Lourdes Salvador > >Message-ID: <320289.16399.qm at web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Eddie Woods wrote: > >Hello People, > >We're concerned about Burma, right? >But no one can do anything. >Except talk. And make useless threats. >The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. >Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. >The generals don't care. >They never did, they're not going to now. >Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. > >We know China COULD do something. But it won't. >They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese >regime. >Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. >More than 400 companies. >And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & >Russia). > >Well, there are organizations that can do something. >To force China to do something. >Sports federations. >Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. >(Which it never should have been awarded. With its >godawful human rights >record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be >selling, made by what >practically amounts to slave labor.) > >Urge your national sports federations to boycott the >Olympics! >The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' >necks. Stop selling them >guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San >Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. >Make them give political power back to those they >stole it from, the people >of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. >We'll skip the Olympics >till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap >trinkets and t-shirts >will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned >toys to the world." > >Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. >But YOU can tell them >to anyway. You can find most of the international ones >at >http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 >-193278-nav-list,00.html >and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk >to them, twist their >arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports >is business, too. >France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to >quit Burma, but maybe a >handful or more pole-vaulters will. > >Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: >pressure your cricket teams >and federations to boycott India. Until they cease >arms sales to Burma's >dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future >democratic Burmese >government will be more than happy to do business with >you." > >I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to >Russia. But two out of the >big bad three would be great for starters. > >Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop >running tourism ads for >China. You know, the folks who execute more of their >citizens than any other >nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for >the bullets. > >[The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for >the title + first >line) is appended below as well as attached; this for >the benefit of those >on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open >attachments.] > >Go for it, eh! > >Amen, EDDIE > > >MANDALAY > >On the road to Mandalay, >Where Buddhist monks march and pray >With their begging bowls turned upside down, >Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, >A brutal regime strains to hold sway. >Yet in the grim face of tyranny >It is the Sangha, and the people, >Who must seize the day. > >On the streets of Rangoon, >Even yesteryear was not too soon >For those murderous generals >To be thoroughly swept away. > >Common soldiers, hold your fire! >Turn your weapons on the liars! >Build a pyre, enormously tall! >Set it alight, let it burn bright >With the sizzling corpse >Of oppression overthrown! > >Flames of freedom, please prevail! >As Burma valiantly seeks to sail >Into a new and fragrant dawn. >Burma oh Burma, >May the spirit of Buddha >Guide your future for evermore. > > >EDDIE WOODS >September 2007 > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ >Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. >http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:13:40 +0530 > From: Anirudh >Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma >To: reader_list >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Anirudh >Date: Sep 30, 2007 11:13 AM >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Burma >To: Yousuf > >India has always been in an eternal dilemma: Whether to have volatile >democracies in it's neighbourhood or relatively-stable dictatorships. And I >don't think we are moving towards a concrete solution either. :-( > >As for boycotting the Chinese Olympics, I think that would segregate them >even more from the world, which is something we cannot afford to do. India >must maintain strong cultural and economical ties in it's neighbour hood, >for it's own good. > >- --Anirudh > >On 9/30/07, Yousuf wrote: > > > > Eddie Woods wrote: > > > > Hello People, > > > > We're concerned about Burma, right? > > But no one can do anything. > > Except talk. And make useless threats. > > The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. > > Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. > > The generals don't care. > > They never did, they're not going to now. > > Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. > > > > We know China COULD do something. But it won't. > > They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese > > regime. > > Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. > > More than 400 companies. > > And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & > > Russia). > > > > Well, there are organizations that can do something. > > To force China to do something. > > Sports federations. > > Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. > > (Which it never should have been awarded. With its > > godawful human rights > > record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be > > selling, made by what > > practically amounts to slave labor.) > > > > Urge your national sports federations to boycott the > > Olympics! > > The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' > > necks. Stop selling them > > guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San > > Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. > > Make them give political power back to those they > > stole it from, the people > > of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. > > We'll skip the Olympics > > till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap > > trinkets and t-shirts > > will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned > > toys to the world." > > > > Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. > > But YOU can tell them > > to anyway. You can find most of the international ones > > at > > > > http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 > > -193278-nav-list,00.html > > and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk > > to them, twist their > > arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports > > is business, too. > > France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to > > quit Burma, but maybe a > > handful or more pole-vaulters will. > > > > Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: > > pressure your cricket teams > > and federations to boycott India. Until they cease > > arms sales to Burma's > > dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future > > democratic Burmese > > government will be more than happy to do business with > > you." > > > > I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to > > Russia. But two out of the > > big bad three would be great for starters. > > > > Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop > > running tourism ads for > > China. You know, the folks who execute more of their > > citizens than any other > > nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for > > the bullets. > > > > [The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for > > the title + first > > line) is appended below as well as attached; this for > > the benefit of those > > on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open > > attachments.] > > > > Go for it, eh! > > > > Amen, EDDIE > > > > > > MANDALAY > > > > On the road to Mandalay, > > Where Buddhist monks march and pray > > With their begging bowls turned upside down, > > Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, > > A brutal regime strains to hold sway. > > Yet in the grim face of tyranny > > It is the Sangha, and the people, > > Who must seize the day. > > > > On the streets of Rangoon, > > Even yesteryear was not too soon > > For those murderous generals > > To be thoroughly swept away. > > > > Common soldiers, hold your fire! > > Turn your weapons on the liars! > > Build a pyre, enormously tall! > > Set it alight, let it burn bright > > With the sizzling corpse > > Of oppression overthrown! > > > > Flames of freedom, please prevail! > > As Burma valiantly seeks to sail > > Into a new and fragrant dawn. > > Burma oh Burma, > > May the spirit of Buddha > > Guide your future for evermore. > > > > > > EDDIE WOODS > > September 2007 > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! > > Autos. > > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:07:07 +0530 > From: Anirudh >Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma >To: reader_list >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >Please, everyone, use the "Reply to all" function in Gmail or in your >respective email service > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: ayush >Date: Sep 30, 2007 1:05 PM >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma >To: Anirudh > >Apart from China we need to look within. What are we doing about it. >Being the biggest democracy and upholder of human rights(well we pretend to) >we need to do something rather than just think of our economic interests in >the region. If we continue to behave this way,in my opinion, we would soon >be like US - supporting and having dictators and repressive regimes as our >best friends for the sake of economic interests. And ceratainly ones culture >does not strength by endorsing or standing mum over repression - ceratinly >not for India - where non vilonence and peacefulful protests are inherent > > > > >Ayush > > > > > > ---- Original Message ---- > From: Anirudh >To: reader_list >Sent: Sunday, 30 September, 2007 11:13:40 AM >Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Anirudh >Date: Sep 30, 2007 11:13 AM >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Burma >To: Yousuf > >India has always been in an eternal dilemma: Whether to have volatile >democracies in it's neighbourhood or relatively-stable dictatorships. And I >don't think we are moving towards a concrete solution either. :-( > >As for boycotting the Chinese Olympics, I think that would segregate them >even more from the world, which is something we cannot afford to do. India >must maintain strong cultural and economical ties in it's neighbour hood, >for it's own good. > >- --Anirudh > >On 9/30/07, Yousuf wrote: > > > > Eddie Woods wrote: > > > > Hello People, > > > > We're concerned about Burma, right? > > But no one can do anything. > > Except talk. And make useless threats. > > The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. > > Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. > > The generals don't care. > > They never did, they're not going to now. > > Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. > > > > We know China COULD do something. But it won't. > > They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese > > regime. > > Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. > > More than 400 companies. > > And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & > > Russia). > > > > Well, there are organizations that can do something. > > To force China to do something. > > Sports federations. > > Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. > > (Which it never should have been awarded. With its > > godawful human rights > > record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be > > selling, made by what > > practically amounts to slave labor.) > > > > Urge your national sports federations to boycott the > > Olympics! > > The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' > > necks. Stop selling them > > guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San > > Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. > > Make them give political power back to those they > > stole it from, the people > > of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. > > We'll skip the Olympics > > till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap > > trinkets and t-shirts > > will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned > > toys to the world." > > > > Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. > > But YOU can tell them > > to anyway. You can find most of the international ones > > at > > > > >http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 > > -193278-nav-list,00.html > > and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk > > to them, twist their > > arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports > > is business, too. > > France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to > > quit Burma, but maybe a > > handful or more pole-vaulters will. > > > > Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: > > pressure your cricket teams > > and federations to boycott India. Until they cease > > arms sales to Burma's > > dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future > > democratic Burmese > > government will be more than happy to do business with > > you." > > > > I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to > > Russia. But two out of the > > big bad three would be great for starters. > > > > Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop > > running tourism ads for > > China. You know, the folks who execute more of their > > citizens than any other > > nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for > > the bullets. > > > > [The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for > > the title + first > > line) is appended below as well as attached; this for > > the benefit of those > > on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open > > attachments.] > > > > Go for it, eh! > > > > Amen, EDDIE > > > > > > MANDALAY > > > > On the road to Mandalay, > > Where Buddhist monks march and pray > > With their begging bowls turned upside down, > > Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, > > A brutal regime strains to hold sway. > > Yet in the grim face of tyranny > > It is the Sangha, and the people, > > Who must seize the day. > > > > On the streets of Rangoon, > > Even yesteryear was not too soon > > For those murderous generals > > To be thoroughly swept away. > > > > Common soldiers, hold your fire! > > Turn your weapons on the liars! > > Build a pyre, enormously tall! > > Set it alight, let it burn bright > > With the sizzling corpse > > Of oppression overthrown! > > > > Flames of freedom, please prevail! > > As Burma valiantly seeks to sail > > Into a new and fragrant dawn. > > Burma oh Burma, > > May the spirit of Buddha > > Guide your future for evermore. > > > > > > EDDIE WOODS > > September 2007 > > > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! > > Autos. > > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: > > >- ------------------------------ >For email that puts you in control, choose Yahoo! >Mail >. > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:13:47 +0530 > From: Anirudh >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma >To: ayush , reader_list > >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >Ayush, > >We have never pretended to be the "biggest upholder of human rights", don't >know where you got that one from. India, for one, is plagued by many >problems, we have many issues to be concerned about which does not leave >much space [for our government] to shift its focus to our immediate >neighbourhood. Which needs to change... > >This would not be a place to trigger another round of huge discussions over >the kind of philosophy, policies and code of morality and ethics that >countries follow... but to try and understand what is in our best interest. > >Diplomacy is not as simple as most of us make it sound like discussion >forums. Each and every step has to be taken with circumspection and >foresight. > >--Anirudh > >PS: We are not international policemen either. Let other countries deal with >their own problems, lest the image of India becomes one that the United >States currently has in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. > > >On 9/30/07, ayush wrote: > > > > Apart from China we need to look within. What are we doing about it. > > Being the biggest democracy and upholder of human rights(well we pretend to) > > we need to do something rather than just think of our economic interests in > > the region. If we continue to behave this way,in my opinion, we would soon > > be like US - supporting and having dictators and repressive regimes as our > > best friends for the sake of economic interests. And ceratainly ones culture > > does not strength by endorsing or standing mum over repression - ceratinly > > not for India - where non vilonence and peacefulful protests are inherent > > > > > > > > > > Ayush > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- Original Message ---- > > From: Anirudh > > To: reader_list > > Sent: Sunday, 30 September, 2007 11:13:40 AM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Anirudh > > Date: Sep 30, 2007 11:13 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Burma > > To: Yousuf > > > > India has always been in an eternal dilemma: Whether to have volatile > > democracies in it's neighbourhood or relatively-stable dictatorships. And > > I > > don't think we are moving towards a concrete solution either. :-( > > > > As for boycotting the Chinese Olympics, I think that would segregate them > > even more from the world, which is something we cannot afford to do. India > > must maintain strong cultural and economical ties in it's neighbour hood, > > for it's own good. > > > > - --Anirudh > > > > On 9/30/07, Yousuf wrote: > > > > > > Eddie Woods wrote: > > > > > > Hello People, > > > > > > We're concerned about Burma, right? > > > But no one can do anything. > > > Except talk. And make useless threats. > > > The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. > > > Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. > > > The generals don't care. > > > They never did, they're not going to now. > > > Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. > > > > > > We know China COULD do something. But it won't. > > > They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese > > > regime. > > > Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. > > > More than 400 companies. > > > And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & > > > Russia). > > > > > > Well, there are organizations that can do something. > > > To force China to do something. > > > Sports federations. > > > Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. > > > (Which it never should have been awarded. With its > > > godawful human rights > > > record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be > > > selling, made by what > > > practically amounts to slave labor.) > > > > > > Urge your national sports federations to boycott the > > > Olympics! > > > The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' > > > necks. Stop selling them > > > guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San > > > Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. > > > Make them give political power back to those they > > > stole it from, the people > > > of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. > > > We'll skip the Olympics > > > till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap > > > trinkets and t-shirts > > > will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned > > > toys to the world." > > > > > > Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. > > > But YOU can tell them > > > to anyway. You can find most of the international ones > > > at > > > > > > > > http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 > > > -193278-nav-list,00.html > > > and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk > > > to them, twist their > > > arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports > > > is business, too. > > > France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to > > > quit Burma, but maybe a > > > handful or more pole-vaulters will. > > > > > > Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: > > > pressure your cricket teams > > > and federations to boycott India. Until they cease > > > arms sales to Burma's > > > dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future > > > democratic Burmese > > > government will be more than happy to do business with > > > you." > > > > > > I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to > > > Russia. But two out of the > > > big bad three would be great for starters. > > > > > > Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop > > > running tourism ads for > > > China. You know, the folks who execute more of their > > > citizens than any other > > > nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for > > > the bullets. > > > > > > [The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for > > > the title + first > > > line) is appended below as well as attached; this for > > > the benefit of those > > > on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open > > > attachments.] > > > > > > Go for it, eh! > > > > > > Amen, EDDIE > > > > > > > > > MANDALAY > > > > > > On the road to Mandalay, > > > Where Buddhist monks march and pray > > > With their begging bowls turned upside down, > > > Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, > > > A brutal regime strains to hold sway. > > > Yet in the grim face of tyranny > > > It is the Sangha, and the people, > > > Who must seize the day. > > > > > > On the streets of Rangoon, > > > Even yesteryear was not too soon > > > For those murderous generals > > > To be thoroughly swept away. > > > > > > Common soldiers, hold your fire! > > > Turn your weapons on the liars! > > > Build a pyre, enormously tall! > > > Set it alight, let it burn bright > > > With the sizzling corpse > > > Of oppression overthrown! > > > > > > Flames of freedom, please prevail! > > > As Burma valiantly seeks to sail > > > Into a new and fragrant dawn. > > > Burma oh Burma, > > > May the spirit of Buddha > > > Guide your future for evermore. > > > > > > > > > EDDIE WOODS > > > September 2007 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! > > > Autos. > > > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > For email that puts you in control, choose Yahoo! Mail > > . > > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >reader-list mailing list >reader-list at sarai.net >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 151 >******************************************** Cell - 9818063517 From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Sun Sep 30 18:43:31 2007 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 30 Sep 2007 13:13:31 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 151 Message-ID: <20070930131331.20264.qmail@webmail54.rediffmail.com>   This is with reference to the events in Myanmar one can watch the developments with guarded optimism. Guarded because you never know with the military junta, who are very adept at making a comeback and giving their adversaries (pro democracy groups) a befitting response. Moreover the international community has turned a blind eye to the developments particularly given a cold shoulder to pro democracy movement. To add to it China lapped it up with arrival of Chinese population, investment, roads, infrastructure etc. So where do we place India in the entire scheme of things. India does have a historic role to be part of any democratic movement and struggle, more so in its immediate neighbourhood, but with an experience of having intervened on the Srilankan request and as well as appeals from various Tamil groups, which ended in receiving a bloody nose. Hence there is a great amount of uncertainty and apprehensions to indulge in some what similar exercise. The only pleasant exception is the liberation of Bangladesh which was due to various factors, ranging from millions of bangla refugees swarming into India and Pakistani military build up. Finally we have lost the earlier games on the oil/gas front vis a vis China. But these are long standing competition and new exploration could result in new gains, so India might prefer to watch with caution. Moreover the international community's quest to promote a democratic and just order in military rule ravaged Pakistan merely vindication the double standards and indifference which India is forced to take into consideration. On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Intellectuals Operate Again ...... (Anirudh) > 2. Re: Tehelka - now in Hindi (prakash ray) > 3. Burma (Yousuf) > 4. Fwd: Burma (Anirudh) > 5. Fwd: Burma (Anirudh) > 6. Re: Fwd: Burma (Anirudh) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:01:56 +0530 > From: Anirudh >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Intellectuals Operate Again ...... >To: "Pawan Durani" >Cc: reader_list >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >Wow. You echo my sentiments completely. I live in Ahmedabad, Gujarat and >Times of India, like everywhere else in India is the most widely read >English daily. > >Did I just call it a "daily"? It's become more of a polarised tabloid, or a >political propaganda sheet, bent on inciting and preventing young minds to >form an opinion of their own. I would say that I would have personally >preferred to read "The Hindu" or "The Statesman", it's a pity that the same >edition would not be available on the same day. > >On the day that the TOI criticized the Modi government (emphasis supplied, >implied etc.), "Is Modi going to losen purse strings for the Pathans?", had >all the distinctive features of a gang-up against Modi. This is not to imply >that Modi is a saint, but the way in which TOI has abused it's position as >the "conscience-keeper" of the society is deplorable. > >In case you have not noticed, during one of TOI's highly publicised campaign >to save the Gir Lion from poachers - they hollered that the image of the Gir >Lion can be likened to that of Gujarat, citing many reasons including: >"Gujarat's image as a successful place for investment, capitalisation, >industries etc", while on the same page criticsing Modi for using a >religious guru to "influence voter" (apparently libellous allegations and >content with dubious sourcing is regularly added by the sheet); and only the >day before they were lamenting about how Modi "misquotes" the development in >the state, when actually there has been no development at all. > >TOI sucks. I wish I had something better to read every morning, without the >polarisation, without the exaggeration, without any agenda. Just news, >honest, neutral and giving all point of views. If it were possible, I >wouldn't even use TOI as an asswipe. > >--Anirudh > >On 9/29/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > 1. India wins 20/20 Cricket world cup. On the *second* day Kerela and > > Haryana Govt announce rewards for players hailing from their respective > > states. > > > > 2. On the *third* day Psuedo Secular ....one legged....media start > > criticising Gujarat (Modi) Govt for not announcing any reward for Pathan > > brothers....which anyway Gujarat Govt announces later on the third day. An > > image of Modi being anti muslim is splashed across all news papers by so > > called "intellectuals" and Psuedo secularists . > > > > 3. On the *fifth *day after winning the 20/20 Cricket world cup Delhi Govt > > announces reward for Gautham Gambhir & same day Tamil nadu Govt announces > > reward for Dinesh Karthik......the same Psuedo secularist dont compare it > > with anything. Everyone is silent. > > > > Just an example to show how appeasement works in this country. How > > intellectauls pass their verdicts.....and how psuedo secularists are hell > > bent on creating controversies and attacking Gujarat (Modi ) Govt > > .....even > > for a non issue > > > > Pawan Durani > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:32:28 +0530 > From: "prakash ray" >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Tehelka - now in Hindi >To: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: > <98f331e00709291302p40891758ke1eb1e42e951c6e2 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >ACHHA HAI.... > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:57:26 -0700 (PDT) > From: Yousuf >Subject: [Reader-list] Burma >To: sarai list , asiafellows at yahoogroups.com, > somkamol , Lourdes Salvador > >Message-ID: <320289.16399.qm at web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Eddie Woods wrote: > >Hello People, > >We're concerned about Burma, right? >But no one can do anything. >Except talk. And make useless threats. >The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. >Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. >The generals don't care. >They never did, they're not going to now. >Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. > >We know China COULD do something. But it won't. >They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese >regime. >Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. >More than 400 companies. >And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & >Russia). > >Well, there are organizations that can do something. >To force China to do something. >Sports federations. >Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. >(Which it never should have been awarded. With its >godawful human rights >record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be >selling, made by what >practically amounts to slave labor.) > >Urge your national sports federations to boycott the >Olympics! >The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' >necks. Stop selling them >guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San >Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. >Make them give political power back to those they >stole it from, the people >of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. >We'll skip the Olympics >till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap >trinkets and t-shirts >will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned >toys to the world." > >Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. >But YOU can tell them >to anyway. You can find most of the international ones >at >http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 >-193278-nav-list,00.html >and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk >to them, twist their >arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports >is business, too. >France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to >quit Burma, but maybe a >handful or more pole-vaulters will. > >Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: >pressure your cricket teams >and federations to boycott India. Until they cease >arms sales to Burma's >dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future >democratic Burmese >government will be more than happy to do business with >you." > >I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to >Russia. But two out of the >big bad three would be great for starters. > >Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop >running tourism ads for >China. You know, the folks who execute more of their >citizens than any other >nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for >the bullets. > >[The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for >the title + first >line) is appended below as well as attached; this for >the benefit of those >on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open >attachments.] > >Go for it, eh! > >Amen, EDDIE > > >MANDALAY > >On the road to Mandalay, >Where Buddhist monks march and pray >With their begging bowls turned upside down, >Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, >A brutal regime strains to hold sway. >Yet in the grim face of tyranny >It is the Sangha, and the people, >Who must seize the day. > >On the streets of Rangoon, >Even yesteryear was not too soon >For those murderous generals >To be thoroughly swept away. > >Common soldiers, hold your fire! >Turn your weapons on the liars! >Build a pyre, enormously tall! >Set it alight, let it burn bright >With the sizzling corpse >Of oppression overthrown! > >Flames of freedom, please prevail! >As Burma valiantly seeks to sail >Into a new and fragrant dawn. >Burma oh Burma, >May the spirit of Buddha >Guide your future for evermore. > > >EDDIE WOODS >September 2007 > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ >Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. >http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:13:40 +0530 > From: Anirudh >Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma >To: reader_list >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Anirudh >Date: Sep 30, 2007 11:13 AM >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Burma >To: Yousuf > >India has always been in an eternal dilemma: Whether to have volatile >democracies in it's neighbourhood or relatively-stable dictatorships. And I >don't think we are moving towards a concrete solution either. :-( > >As for boycotting the Chinese Olympics, I think that would segregate them >even more from the world, which is something we cannot afford to do. India >must maintain strong cultural and economical ties in it's neighbour hood, >for it's own good. > >- --Anirudh > >On 9/30/07, Yousuf wrote: > > > > Eddie Woods wrote: > > > > Hello People, > > > > We're concerned about Burma, right? > > But no one can do anything. > > Except talk. And make useless threats. > > The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. > > Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. > > The generals don't care. > > They never did, they're not going to now. > > Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. > > > > We know China COULD do something. But it won't. > > They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese > > regime. > > Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. > > More than 400 companies. > > And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & > > Russia). > > > > Well, there are organizations that can do something. > > To force China to do something. > > Sports federations. > > Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. > > (Which it never should have been awarded. With its > > godawful human rights > > record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be > > selling, made by what > > practically amounts to slave labor.) > > > > Urge your national sports federations to boycott the > > Olympics! > > The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' > > necks. Stop selling them > > guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San > > Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. > > Make them give political power back to those they > > stole it from, the people > > of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. > > We'll skip the Olympics > > till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap > > trinkets and t-shirts > > will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned > > toys to the world." > > > > Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. > > But YOU can tell them > > to anyway. You can find most of the international ones > > at > > > > http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 > > -193278-nav-list,00.html > > and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk > > to them, twist their > > arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports > > is business, too. > > France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to > > quit Burma, but maybe a > > handful or more pole-vaulters will. > > > > Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: > > pressure your cricket teams > > and federations to boycott India. Until they cease > > arms sales to Burma's > > dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future > > democratic Burmese > > government will be more than happy to do business with > > you." > > > > I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to > > Russia. But two out of the > > big bad three would be great for starters. > > > > Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop > > running tourism ads for > > China. You know, the folks who execute more of their > > citizens than any other > > nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for > > the bullets. > > > > [The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for > > the title + first > > line) is appended below as well as attached; this for > > the benefit of those > > on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open > > attachments.] > > > > Go for it, eh! > > > > Amen, EDDIE > > > > > > MANDALAY > > > > On the road to Mandalay, > > Where Buddhist monks march and pray > > With their begging bowls turned upside down, > > Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, > > A brutal regime strains to hold sway. > > Yet in the grim face of tyranny > > It is the Sangha, and the people, > > Who must seize the day. > > > > On the streets of Rangoon, > > Even yesteryear was not too soon > > For those murderous generals > > To be thoroughly swept away. > > > > Common soldiers, hold your fire! > > Turn your weapons on the liars! > > Build a pyre, enormously tall! > > Set it alight, let it burn bright > > With the sizzling corpse > > Of oppression overthrown! > > > > Flames of freedom, please prevail! > > As Burma valiantly seeks to sail > > Into a new and fragrant dawn. > > Burma oh Burma, > > May the spirit of Buddha > > Guide your future for evermore. > > > > > > EDDIE WOODS > > September 2007 > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! > > Autos. > > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:07:07 +0530 > From: Anirudh >Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma >To: reader_list >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >Please, everyone, use the "Reply to all" function in Gmail or in your >respective email service > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: ayush >Date: Sep 30, 2007 1:05 PM >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma >To: Anirudh > >Apart from China we need to look within. What are we doing about it. >Being the biggest democracy and upholder of human rights(well we pretend to) >we need to do something rather than just think of our economic interests in >the region. If we continue to behave this way,in my opinion, we would soon >be like US - supporting and having dictators and repressive regimes as our >best friends for the sake of economic interests. And ceratainly ones culture >does not strength by endorsing or standing mum over repression - ceratinly >not for India - where non vilonence and peacefulful protests are inherent > > > > >Ayush > > > > > > ---- Original Message ---- > From: Anirudh >To: reader_list >Sent: Sunday, 30 September, 2007 11:13:40 AM >Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Anirudh >Date: Sep 30, 2007 11:13 AM >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Burma >To: Yousuf > >India has always been in an eternal dilemma: Whether to have volatile >democracies in it's neighbourhood or relatively-stable dictatorships. And I >don't think we are moving towards a concrete solution either. :-( > >As for boycotting the Chinese Olympics, I think that would segregate them >even more from the world, which is something we cannot afford to do. India >must maintain strong cultural and economical ties in it's neighbour hood, >for it's own good. > >- --Anirudh > >On 9/30/07, Yousuf wrote: > > > > Eddie Woods wrote: > > > > Hello People, > > > > We're concerned about Burma, right? > > But no one can do anything. > > Except talk. And make useless threats. > > The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. > > Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. > > The generals don't care. > > They never did, they're not going to now. > > Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. > > > > We know China COULD do something. But it won't. > > They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese > > regime. > > Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. > > More than 400 companies. > > And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & > > Russia). > > > > Well, there are organizations that can do something. > > To force China to do something. > > Sports federations. > > Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. > > (Which it never should have been awarded. With its > > godawful human rights > > record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be > > selling, made by what > > practically amounts to slave labor.) > > > > Urge your national sports federations to boycott the > > Olympics! > > The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' > > necks. Stop selling them > > guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San > > Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. > > Make them give political power back to those they > > stole it from, the people > > of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. > > We'll skip the Olympics > > till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap > > trinkets and t-shirts > > will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned > > toys to the world." > > > > Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. > > But YOU can tell them > > to anyway. You can find most of the international ones > > at > > > > >http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 > > -193278-nav-list,00.html > > and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk > > to them, twist their > > arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports > > is business, too. > > France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to > > quit Burma, but maybe a > > handful or more pole-vaulters will. > > > > Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: > > pressure your cricket teams > > and federations to boycott India. Until they cease > > arms sales to Burma's > > dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future > > democratic Burmese > > government will be more than happy to do business with > > you." > > > > I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to > > Russia. But two out of the > > big bad three would be great for starters. > > > > Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop > > running tourism ads for > > China. You know, the folks who execute more of their > > citizens than any other > > nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for > > the bullets. > > > > [The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for > > the title + first > > line) is appended below as well as attached; this for > > the benefit of those > > on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open > > attachments.] > > > > Go for it, eh! > > > > Amen, EDDIE > > > > > > MANDALAY > > > > On the road to Mandalay, > > Where Buddhist monks march and pray > > With their begging bowls turned upside down, > > Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, > > A brutal regime strains to hold sway. > > Yet in the grim face of tyranny > > It is the Sangha, and the people, > > Who must seize the day. > > > > On the streets of Rangoon, > > Even yesteryear was not too soon > > For those murderous generals > > To be thoroughly swept away. > > > > Common soldiers, hold your fire! > > Turn your weapons on the liars! > > Build a pyre, enormously tall! > > Set it alight, let it burn bright > > With the sizzling corpse > > Of oppression overthrown! > > > > Flames of freedom, please prevail! > > As Burma valiantly seeks to sail > > Into a new and fragrant dawn. > > Burma oh Burma, > > May the spirit of Buddha > > Guide your future for evermore. > > > > > > EDDIE WOODS > > September 2007 > > > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! > > Autos. > > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: > > >- ------------------------------ >For email that puts you in control, choose Yahoo! >Mail >. > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:13:47 +0530 > From: Anirudh >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma >To: ayush , reader_list > >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >Ayush, > >We have never pretended to be the "biggest upholder of human rights", don't >know where you got that one from. India, for one, is plagued by many >problems, we have many issues to be concerned about which does not leave >much space [for our government] to shift its focus to our immediate >neighbourhood. Which needs to change... > >This would not be a place to trigger another round of huge discussions over >the kind of philosophy, policies and code of morality and ethics that >countries follow... but to try and understand what is in our best interest. > >Diplomacy is not as simple as most of us make it sound like discussion >forums. Each and every step has to be taken with circumspection and >foresight. > >--Anirudh > >PS: We are not international policemen either. Let other countries deal with >their own problems, lest the image of India becomes one that the United >States currently has in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. > > >On 9/30/07, ayush wrote: > > > > Apart from China we need to look within. What are we doing about it. > > Being the biggest democracy and upholder of human rights(well we pretend to) > > we need to do something rather than just think of our economic interests in > > the region. If we continue to behave this way,in my opinion, we would soon > > be like US - supporting and having dictators and repressive regimes as our > > best friends for the sake of economic interests. And ceratainly ones culture > > does not strength by endorsing or standing mum over repression - ceratinly > > not for India - where non vilonence and peacefulful protests are inherent > > > > > > > > > > Ayush > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- Original Message ---- > > From: Anirudh > > To: reader_list > > Sent: Sunday, 30 September, 2007 11:13:40 AM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Burma > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Anirudh > > Date: Sep 30, 2007 11:13 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Burma > > To: Yousuf > > > > India has always been in an eternal dilemma: Whether to have volatile > > democracies in it's neighbourhood or relatively-stable dictatorships. And > > I > > don't think we are moving towards a concrete solution either. :-( > > > > As for boycotting the Chinese Olympics, I think that would segregate them > > even more from the world, which is something we cannot afford to do. India > > must maintain strong cultural and economical ties in it's neighbour hood, > > for it's own good. > > > > - --Anirudh > > > > On 9/30/07, Yousuf wrote: > > > > > > Eddie Woods wrote: > > > > > > Hello People, > > > > > > We're concerned about Burma, right? > > > But no one can do anything. > > > Except talk. And make useless threats. > > > The UN. The EU. The USA. The UK. Etc. > > > Sanctions. Travel restrictions. Blah-blah-blah. > > > The generals don't care. > > > They never did, they're not going to now. > > > Yet a nation is in pain. And people are dying. > > > > > > We know China COULD do something. But it won't. > > > They do too much business with the corrupt Burmese > > > regime. > > > Nearly two billion dollars' worth annually. > > > More than 400 companies. > > > And Burma's biggest arms supplier (along with India & > > > Russia). > > > > > > Well, there are organizations that can do something. > > > To force China to do something. > > > Sports federations. > > > Beijing is hosting the 2008 Olympics. > > > (Which it never should have been awarded. With its > > > godawful human rights > > > record. Its polluted air. And all the crap they'll be > > > selling, made by what > > > practically amounts to slave labor.) > > > > > > Urge your national sports federations to boycott the > > > Olympics! > > > The message is simple: "China, wring the generals' > > > necks. Stop selling them > > > guns. Insist they step down NOW. And release Aung San > > > Suu Kyi IMMEDIATELY. > > > Make them give political power back to those they > > > stole it from, the people > > > of Burma. Or we won't come and play with you, China. > > > We'll skip the Olympics > > > till 2012. Your stadiums will be empty. Your cheap > > > trinkets and t-shirts > > > will rot. And you can go back to flogging poisoned > > > toys to the world." > > > > > > Will they do it, the sports federations? Probably not. > > > But YOU can tell them > > > to anyway. You can find most of the international ones > > > at > > > > > > > > http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-176060 > > > -193278-nav-list,00.html > > > and then Google for the rest. Know any athletes? Talk > > > to them, twist their > > > arms. To twist the arms of their federations. Sports > > > is business, too. > > > France's Total (gas & oil company) is not about to > > > quit Burma, but maybe a > > > handful or more pole-vaulters will. > > > > > > Ah, and all of you in cricket-playing countries: > > > pressure your cricket teams > > > and federations to boycott India. Until they cease > > > arms sales to Burma's > > > dictators. "You need gas, India? I'm sure any future > > > democratic Burmese > > > government will be more than happy to do business with > > > you." > > > > > > I haven't a clue about what anyone might say to > > > Russia. But two out of the > > > big bad three would be great for starters. > > > > > > Oh yeah, the BBC, CNN, et cetera could also stop > > > running tourism ads for > > > China. You know, the folks who execute more of their > > > citizens than any other > > > nation; and then charge the poor sods' families for > > > the bullets. > > > > > > [The attached poem (with thanks to Rudyard Kipling for > > > the title + first > > > line) is appended below as well as attached; this for > > > the benefit of those > > > on my mailing list (there are a few) who cannot open > > > attachments.] > > > > > > Go for it, eh! > > > > > > Amen, EDDIE > > > > > > > > > MANDALAY > > > > > > On the road to Mandalay, > > > Where Buddhist monks march and pray > > > With their begging bowls turned upside down, > > > Their fear of reprisals flung to the ground, > > > A brutal regime strains to hold sway. > > > Yet in the grim face of tyranny > > > It is the Sangha, and the people, > > > Who must seize the day. > > > > > > On the streets of Rangoon, > > > Even yesteryear was not too soon > > > For those murderous generals > > > To be thoroughly swept away. > > > > > > Common soldiers, hold your fire! > > > Turn your weapons on the liars! > > > Build a pyre, enormously tall! > > > Set it alight, let it burn bright > > > With the sizzling corpse > > > Of oppression overthrown! > > > > > > Flames of freedom, please prevail! > > > As Burma valiantly seeks to sail > > > Into a new and fragrant dawn. > > > Burma oh Burma, > > > May the spirit of Buddha > > > Guide your future for evermore. > > > > > > > > > EDDIE WOODS > > > September 2007 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! > > > Autos. > > > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > For email that puts you in control, choose Yahoo! Mail > > . > > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >reader-list mailing list >reader-list at sarai.net >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 50, Issue 151 >******************************************** Cell - 9818063517 From andrewwhiteheadbbc at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 23:22:37 2007 From: andrewwhiteheadbbc at gmail.com (Andrew Whitehead) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:52:37 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir leftist feminist iconography Message-ID: <5eb29f180709301052u78830ccy9411b15151ad5572@mail.gmail.com> I've come across some remarkable pamphlets from Kashmir in the late 1940s which have a strongly socialist/communist style of design, and which feature women as the central characters on the cover. One is an early edition of the National Conference's 'New Kashmir' manifesto - first published in 1944, but this one was published in Delhi probably four years or so later. The cover features a design of a woman, her head covered, waving the National Conference flag very much in the fashion of Marianne in the French Revolution. The second, 'Kashmir Defends Democracy', was published in Delhi in 1948. The cover has a striking design of a photograph of armed women members of the National Conference militia, above a design of a woman, lying on the ground, her head covered, taking aim with a rifle. This appears to be a depiction of Zuni, a Gujjar woman who was prominent both in the National Conference and in the women's detachment of its militia. The design is credited to Sobha Singh, who I imagine may be the artist who later painted devotional portraits of the Sikh gurus. I am intrigued by the leftist iconogrpaphy - by the design emphasis on women - and by the brief but clearly important confluence of Kashmir nationalist and leftist currents in the mid-1940s. What to make of it all? I'm keen to hear from anyone with observations or information. Andrew Whitehead (in London) From sushil_mainali at hotmail.com Wed Sep 26 12:15:15 2007 From: sushil_mainali at hotmail.com (Sushil Mainali) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:45:15 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] [infosouth] One more news Report on NRK. Message-ID: Dear all One more time NRK the national Television of Norway broadcasted one more news report from Philippines which has made by Knut Erik and me. The report is about the mining company(Crew Minerals) and they are planning to start the Nickel mining project in Mindoro, one of the Island of Philippines. If they start mining, one of the indigenous group will be displaced from there and the local government also against the company. They broadcasted the news based on our visual and from the next day the share market of that mining company has down. And as a Fredeskorpset participant this is our last month. Now Ananda and me are doing the post production work of three video, which is from Indonesia and India. We visited India and Indonesia at the end of August and work for Future In Our Hands on the issues about Climate Change seen from the south. Here is the link of the news. http://www1.nrk.no/nett-tv/indeks/108065 others is fine. With Regards, Sushil Sushil Mainali Senior Reporter, Audio Visual Department Nepal Forum of Environmental Journalists (NEFEJ) P. O. Box 5143, Thapathali, Kathmandu, Nepal Phone: 00977 1 4261991(office)/00977 98510 09729(mobile) Fax: 00977 1 4261191 http://www.nefej.org FK Participant: Future In Our Hands, Oslo, Norway Phone: 0047 90 580 182 http://www.framtiden.no Blog: http://www.mainalis.blogspot.com _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements