From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 10:00:15 2007 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:00:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Roadside traders march against eviction move Message-ID: <3457ce860711302030n3e98488bmb99886b3ac4c9c6e@mail.gmail.com> Roadside traders march against eviction move Special Correspondent http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/01/stories/2007120160390300.htm Corporation yet to come up with rehabilitation package for displaced vendors THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Hundreds of fish and vegetable vendors, mostly women, took out a march to the City Corporation office at Palayam here on Friday to protest against the move to evict them from roadside markets. The protest was organised by the Theeradesa Mahila Vedi. Inaugurating the march, State president of the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation T. Peter alleged that the eviction move was aimed at paving the way for the entry of retail chains like Walmart and Reliance. He said hundreds of vendors would lose their livelihood if they were displaced. Mr. Peter said the Corporation was bound to provide alternative land and facilities for the vendors to carry on their trade. "Many vendors have been selling fish and vegetables by the roadside for decades. Customers are drawn to them by the reasonable rates," he added. President of Theeradesa Mahila Vedi Elizabeth Antony, secretary Freeska Kurishappan, Magline Peter, KSMTF district president Valierian Isack, secretary Anto Alias and former ward councillor Bridget Franklin addressed the protestors. The march began from the Secretariat and proceeded to the City Corporation office. Despite the snowballing protest, the Corporation has failed to come up with a rehabilitation package for the displaced hawkers. The City Development Plan outlines a proposal to rehabilitate hawkers and legitimise street vending as an 'affordable' service for the urban population. Scheduled to be taken up under the Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission (JNNURM), the project primarily seeks to relocate street vendors to special zones equipped with basic infrastructural facilities. It is estimated that the city has 3,700 street vendors operating from commercial zones like East Fort, Chalai, Manacaud, Thampanoor, Statue, Palayam, Karamana, Kesavadasapuram, Vazhuthacaud, Medical College, Ulloor and Sasthamangalam. Under the project, the Corporation would identify land to create hawking zones where street vendors would be provided with semi permanent structures and basic amenities like toilets, electricity, drinking water and storage. It moots aesthetic design of mobile stalls and push carts to improve appeal. http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From virtuallyme at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 10:24:59 2007 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:24:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An urban playground Message-ID: <79e82f610711302054v3649de39n9231b524670c8aa9@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Pls find below a posting by me on a particular playground in Bangalore. Rgds, Rohan *Akkithimmanahalli ground* Akkithimmanahalli ground*, situated in Richmond Town, Bangalore, is like any other playground one can see in Indian cities or towns. The features being an open maidan, where public access is free and unrestricted and various groups play sports of their choice simultaneously. This ground is also a feature of Bangalore, which has many such open maidans, unaffiliated to any association/institution. The ground is on a location where, like in many other places in Bangalore, there used to be a tank. This tank known variously as Akkithimmanahalli tank and Mud tank was in existence till the 70s. The main portion of the tank bed now consists of three parts, home to three different set-ups, with three different kinds of access. One part, which is also the largest, is the Karnataka State Hockey Association stadium complex, built in 1997, which consists of an astro-turf pitch and stadium, association office and gymnasium, mini hockey pitch and a residential block. Access to this complex is mostly restricted to members and players only, except on occasions when matches are held there. The second part is Divyasree Chambers, a commercial complex, which has many corporate offices, located in it and was built in 1999. Access here also is limited most of the time to employees, clients/customers and guests of the offices located there. Though there are a couple of ATMs (Citibank and HDFC) and a Bangalore One counter (where various utilities bills can be paid) in the complex, which can be accessed by others as well. The third part is the playground, which belongs to the Bangalore City Corporation and is accessible to all. The ground is in one corner of what used to be part of the tank bed and is almost square shaped. There is a wall made of grills around it, with one gate and small entry points at two other places. There are two rain trees in the western corner of the ground, which has a round platform around it and one near the main entrance. The soil is hard and has a smattering of small stones. There is a small building along the northern boundary of the ground, which houses an office for a government old age home. There are some slippery slides, jungle gyms and other such play equipments at the northern part of the ground. Largely used as a space to play in, the ground is occasionally used for festivals such as Ganesh Chaturthi, Navaratri, Deepavali and some other programmes. On a normal basis, it is a playground, where different groups play many sports at the same time. The most prominent sport, being cricket. One or two groups attempt to play other sports such as football and another, which seems to be cross between football and cricket (which I shall for convenience call, footcricket). The ground is occupied to its fullest capacity during weekday evenings and most of the time during weekends. Some people also play on weekday mornings. Most of the groups, who play in the ground, constitute locals from the neighbouring Shantinagar, especially from its lower income areas. The language spoken most is Kannada, with a little bit of Tamil. The ground is located in between middle and upper income group areas such as Langford Town and Richmond Town, with Shantinagar being in the area adjacent to the hockey stadium complex. The middle and upper class local youth, who live close by seem to have moved on from playing here, in favour of the more 'sanitised' institutional (school/colleges) play areas as well as private clubs. Though largely dominated by the locals from Shantinagar, there have been occasions earlier and now, where 'outsiders' have and continue to attempt to find space to play here. The 'outsiders' in this context are broadly two groups. One is the 'non-local locals', i.e., those who have come from outside Bangalore and even South India, but live in this neighbourhood. These include people (mostly students) from the northeastern states of India and some migrants from Nepal. The other group of 'outsiders' constitutes those who work in the various corporate offices in Divyasree chambers. The most part of space is taken up by the locals, who mostly play cricket and 'footcricket'. Space used by the 'outsiders' is relatively less and is characterized by other sports such as football. One can see the northeastern youth playing football in a truncated space in one part of the ground and the corporate employees in another corner, playing cricket. It is very rare that this composition of the playing area is different. The occasions when this differs are when the locals haven't entered the field, mostly because of the time of the day. During two such occasions, one was witness to a full-fledged football match being played by northeastern youth and another was when the corporate employees took center stage, literally, with their cricket equipment. But, on both occasions it was times of the day, which many of the locals did not consider as playing time. Sometimes belonging to regional and class groups determines spaces occupied. This seems to be determined to start with by regional/class belonging and then in the next level national belonging. This area has many from Nepal also who are employed as watchmen in the various buildings. They also play cricket, mostly on Sundays. I happened to play with them on two occasions. On one of these occasions, when we were playing in one part of the ground, another group, seemingly all locals started playing 'footcricket' near us. In spite of seeming to have enough space for themselves, one or two from the 'footcricket' group attempted to come in the way of the bowler and batsman of our group. A few such attempts were made and responses sought. When the responses seemed to be mild enough, there was no more disturbance of this sort. This seemed like an assertion of ownership of the space as well as an invitation to challenge that. One wonders whether this is a representation or a reaction to what is happening at a larger level in the city of Bangalore, where physical spaces in the form of land, cultural spaces in the form of festivals and employment/livelihood spaces in terms of jobs/businesses are increasingly being challenged by 'outsiders' and thereby making them grounds for conflict. And is what one sees playing out here also, a response by lower income groups/classes to changes of configuration in the city where a new breed of public spaces, like malls, clubs are emerging, where access is largely determined by income and class belonging? Is conversion of traditional public spaces such as parks, tanks into restricted spaces, through handing them over to private management, also contributing to these contestations? Playgrounds such as Akkithimanahalli face extinction due to attempts like one by the authorities (Bangalore City Corporation) **, where they sought to convert it and many other such grounds into underground parking lots. This move by the authorities needs to be seen in the light where cities such as Bangalore are increasingly being made upper and middle class friendly. Therefore spaces, like this ground, that used to be used by members of this class, but not anymore, are seen to be looked at as those which can cater to different and new needs of this class at this point in time. When one then sees all of this, which forms part of a larger design to convert cities such as Bangalore into 'mega cities' with clear class orientation and belonging, the contestations that happen in the playground don't seem surprising anymore. *Satellite map of Mud Tank area - http://maps.google.com/maps?key=ABQIAAAA6c_jabZz8p68OmBSGUQ4-hR9cIphkSRpGuP1UpICwt_aYUuIuRT4k9Dgqf04wqMPR2l-GEkr3TpUNw&ie=UTF8&ll=12.962217,77.600427&spn=0.005374,0.009785&t=h&z=16&om=0 ** Article on underground parking at playgrounds - http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2007042219240400.htm&date=2007/04/22/&prd=th& From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 10:42:03 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:42:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of abominations that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of you try to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead to ? Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time you want all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though thay may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an anti allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state has "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the keyboard. Pawan Durani On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > post, > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted out to a > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual that > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms of > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it takes, > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people > like > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize his > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence against > its own subjects in West Bengal > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have been > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in being > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left Front > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military dictatorship in > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis of > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea were to be > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be clear > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules North Korea > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is ruled > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, weapons > and > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and foreign > policy. If the international community was justified in operating a set of > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it should have > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement support agency > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz > Sharif. > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > foreign > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides over an > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly Salafist brand > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its rented > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. Its > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and American > fighter jets. > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of abominations > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > just > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in > India. > > regards. > > Shuddha > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's Higher > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive 200 > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most heinous > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car of > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the woman > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been revoked > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee for > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the crime > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 11:59:14 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:59:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that he's as against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi one. What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the POSCO incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through non-legal punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that the constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the constitution. On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure out the logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down every building place that was once something else and replacing it with whatever it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the North Block and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you agree? In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or add God to that structure. I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very nature of their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, I certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and I saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP fanaticism makes me distrust them. As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has different wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the pain. I hear the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. Do I know the 'ground reality'? No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that conflict has become fragmented with different demands (that have changed over time, different 'truths' and different hates. Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I do like the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and to resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of death. Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that conflict. What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful resolution or retribution? Rgds, Partha .................... On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi > Arabia to the > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of abominations > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > just > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in > India. > > Dear Shuddha , > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of you try > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I wonder > where does your conscience lead to ? > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened over a > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among minorties > by > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ which > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have ever > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir . > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time you > want > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though thay may > be > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an > anti > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state > has > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir . > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the keyboard. > > Pawan Durani > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > > post, > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted out to > a > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual > that > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms of > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > takes, > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people > > like > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize his > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence against > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have been > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in being > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left Front > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military dictatorship in > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis of > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea were to > be > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be clear > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules North > Korea > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > ruled > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, weapons > > and > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and foreign > > policy. If the international community was justified in operating a set > of > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it should > have > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement support > agency > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz > > Sharif. > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > > foreign > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides over > an > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly Salafist > brand > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its > rented > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. Its > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > American > > fighter jets. > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > abominations > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > just > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > would > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in > > India. > > > > regards. > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's Higher > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive 200 > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most heinous > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car of > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the woman > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been revoked > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee for > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the crime > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 12:33:41 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:33:41 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Word file Message-ID: <20071201070341.76B0A2B298A2@mail.sarai.net> Please see the file. -------------- next part -------------- ***** NOTE: An attachment named New_Document_file.pif was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 12:43:29 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:43:29 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=28no_subject=29?= Message-ID: <20071201071329.7676F2B29741@mail.sarai.net> ???????????????????????????? ????????????? ?????? ??????????? -------------- next part -------------- ***** NOTE: An attachment named Word_Document.uu was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 12:54:34 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:54:34 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Sexy Message-ID: <20071201072434.E0D692B298A8@mail.sarai.net> ***** NOTE: An attachment named Attachments001.BHX was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 13:06:36 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:06:36 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Crazy illegal Sex! Message-ID: <20071201073636.AA66A2B298A8@mail.sarai.net> Note: forwarded message attached. -------------- next part -------------- ***** NOTE: An attachment named Sex.mim was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From chilledoutmirage at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 13:14:56 2007 From: chilledoutmirage at gmail.com (Malvika Rawal) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:14:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43295f450711302344v561daaa8pb3d7ab53e5011a74@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I am no sociologist but as a human being, I can say that we have no right to condemn another human on the basis of how he/she refers to God. Today, religion has become such a big issue for everybody but somehow, I fail to understand why all this brouhaha *Whether I refer to my God as Bhagwan, Allah, Christ or Wahe guru is nobody's choice except my own, least of all, that of the state. The state has no right to discriminate on the basis of religion and least of all, sponsor genocides based on religious discrimination.* The state's job is to protect the rights of people not take away the right to life and the right to justice. Whether it is Modi or the Saudi regime or any other for that matter, they have flouted the basic principles of egalitarianism in a society. In an ideal situation, we would say that all parties in a democracy will advocate the welfare of the people, only the path of achievement would be diferent. If anyone does otherwise, the media must bring it to the people and help condemn it. However, the situation is farr from ideal here. Where various political parties raise issues to maintain themselves in public eye, create mountains out of molehills just for their 15 minutes of fame. Issues like Nandigram, the N-deal did not deserve as much attention and noise as was made out for them. The people lusting for power let them become such big issues. This gave them their satisfaction but cost the common man dearly, with life in the first case and finances in the second case. People lusting for power will not have public welfare in mind when they speak of any issue but will have their own silly motives in mind. people who have let religion, Nandigram or anything esle for that matter become such big issues are as guilty as those who perpetrated the killings themselves. The media also feeds this lust by giving them all the attention that they want. We need to focus on the real issue and not the offshoots and mis shoots of it. The method of presentation in news is often as if the news reader is enjoying the plight of the victims. 24 hour news channels have not helped society anymore. Rather they have been party in decay. Sensationalism is quite the rule of the day with everything made spicy to attract public attention, unfortunately to all the wrong and non useful things. We as a society need to wake up to the fact that we have to learn to distinguish between the real and the depicted picture. What is shown in the news and told to us by the 'so called' leaders may not be the complete picture. in fact, that may not be the picture at all. it may be an illusion being created by them to fulfill their cheap lusts fro fame and power. Issues being blown out of proportion more than once basically shows that we the people are not able to take a stand on whether or not an issue deserves so much attention. It is this inability that gives these people all the incentive to go ahead and make us believe what they feel like. We as the people would now have learn to distinguish. It only this capability that will make us a better people. Regards Malvika On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > Hi Pawan, > > I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that he's as > against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi one. > What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / > encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the > POSCO > incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through > non-legal > punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that > the > constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's > being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the > constitution. > > On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure out the > logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down every > building place that was once something else and replacing it with whatever > it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the North > Block > and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you agree? > > In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a > building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or > add > God to that structure. > > I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very nature of > their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, I > certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and > Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national > dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and > I > saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri > Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing > except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP > fanaticism makes me distrust them. > > As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has > different > wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the pain. I > hear > the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. Do I know > the > 'ground reality'? > > No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that conflict has > become fragmented with different demands (that have changed over time, > different 'truths' and different hates. > > Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I do like > the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and to > resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing > Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of > death. > > Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that > conflict. > > What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful resolution > or > retribution? > > Rgds, Partha > .................... > > > On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current > Saudi > > Arabia to the > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > abominations > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > just > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > would > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in > > India. > > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of you > try > > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I wonder > > where does your conscience lead to ? > > > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a > > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened over > a > > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among minorties > > by > > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ which > > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have ever > > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir . > > > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time you > > want > > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though thay > may > > be > > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an > > anti > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state > > has > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir . > > > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the > keyboard. > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > > > post, > > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted out > to > > a > > > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual > > that > > > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms of > > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > > takes, > > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people > > > like > > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize > his > > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence > against > > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have > been > > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in being > > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left > Front > > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military dictatorship > in > > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis > of > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea were to > > be > > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be clear > > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules North > > Korea > > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include Iran, > the > > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > > ruled > > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > weapons > > > and > > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and > foreign > > > policy. If the international community was justified in operating a > set > > of > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it should > > have > > > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement support > > agency > > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz > > > Sharif. > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > > > foreign > > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides over > > an > > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly Salafist > > brand > > > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its > > rented > > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. > Its > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > American > > > fighter jets. > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > abominations > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > > just > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > would > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and > in > > > India. > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > Higher > > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive 200 > > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most heinous > > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car > of > > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the woman > > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been revoked > > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee for > > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the > crime > > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.ne > > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Keep smiling, smile brings sunshine to your life From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 13:18:59 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:18:59 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Word file Message-ID: <20071201074900.7C8BB2B298FC@mail.sarai.net> Please see the file. -------------- next part -------------- ***** NOTE: An attachment named New_Document_file.pif was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 13:43:00 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:43:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70711302343v67ae75bp61afa3f4acb62828@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302343v67ae75bp61afa3f4acb62828@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990712010013y1128683aq93a495cc6e12b446@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, That *is* what I was talking about. We can either focus on Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik and other mentioned by you and insist upon retribution and death... Or we can look at trying to achieve peaceful cohabitation in Kashmir, and then due diligence on all the issues. Besides, the killing of Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik, etc., might satisfy some blood / revenge thirsty people, but I fail to understand how it will resolve any issue. Rgds, Partha ............................................................ On Dec 1, 2007 1:13 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Partha , > > Though I wished to discuss on many points you have expressed , but for a > moment I just wanted to ask you a simple question > > As regards to people like Yasin malik and Bitta karate .....what is your > idea of peaceful solution ? > > Pawan > > > On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that he's > > as against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi one. > > What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / > > encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the POSCO > > incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through non-legal > > punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that the > > constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's > > being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the > > constitution. > > > > On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure out > > the logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down > > every building place that was once something else and replacing it with > > whatever it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the > > North Block and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you > > agree? > > > > In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a > > building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or add > > God to that structure. > > > > I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very nature > > of their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, I > > certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and > > Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national > > dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and I > > saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri > > Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing > > except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP > > fanaticism makes me distrust them. > > > > As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has > > different wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the > > pain. I hear the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. > > Do I know the 'ground reality'? > > > > No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that conflict has > > become fragmented with different demands (that have changed over time, > > different 'truths' and different hates. > > > > Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I do > > like the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and to > > resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing > > Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of death. > > > > > > Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that > > conflict. > > > > What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful resolution > > or retribution? > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .................... > > > > > > On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current > > > Saudi > > > Arabia to the > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > abominations > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > > just > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > > would > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and > > > in > > > India. > > > > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of you > > > try > > > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I > > > wonder > > > where does your conscience lead to ? > > > > > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the > > > ground > > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or > > > a > > > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > > > figures. > > > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened > > > over a > > > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among > > > minorties by > > > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > > > > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ > > > which > > > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have ever > > > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir . > > > > > > > > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time > > > you want > > > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > > > > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though thay > > > may be > > > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need > > > an anti > > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > > > > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > > > > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > > > state has > > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir . > > > > > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the > > > keyboard. > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > > > earlier > > > > post, > > > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted > > > out to a > > > > > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > > > intellectual that > > > > > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms of > > > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > > > takes, > > > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for > > > people > > > > like > > > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize > > > his > > > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence > > > against > > > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have > > > been > > > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > > > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in > > > being > > > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left > > > Front > > > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military > > > dictatorship in > > > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the > > > aegis of > > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea were > > > to be > > > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be clear > > > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules North > > > Korea > > > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include Iran, > > > the > > > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > > > ruled > > > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > > > weapons > > > > and > > > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and > > > foreign > > > > policy. If the international community was justified in operating a > > > set of > > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it > > > should have > > > > > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > > > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement support > > > agency > > > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz > > > > Sharif. > > > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > > > > foreign > > > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides > > > over an > > > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly Salafist > > > brand > > > > > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its > > > rented > > > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. > > > Its > > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > > American > > > > fighter jets. > > > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to > > > the > > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > abominations > > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would > > > be > > > > just > > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > > would > > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat > > > and in > > > > India. > > > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > > > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > > Higher > > > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive > > > 200 > > > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most > > > heinous > > > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car > > > of > > > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the > > > woman > > > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi > > > Arabia's > > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > > revoked > > > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee > > > for > > > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the > > > crime > > > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.ne > > > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 14:03:03 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:03:03 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: DSC-00465.jpg Message-ID: <20071201083303.D5C1D2B29907@mail.sarai.net> forwarded message attached. -------------- next part -------------- ***** NOTE: An attachment named DSC-00465.pIf was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 14:07:50 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:07:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: DSC-00465.jpg In-Reply-To: <20071201083303.D5C1D2B29907@mail.sarai.net> References: <20071201083303.D5C1D2B29907@mail.sarai.net> Message-ID: <32144e990712010037q7f28a15dp90d5044cf390b047@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Would suggest deleting messages from klp_adital from your mailbox as all the mails sent today from that ID include infected files. Most possible s/he has an infected computer that is auto-sending mails. However, short term it's safer to block mails from this ID till the user fixes the computer. Rgds, Partha ............................ On Dec 1, 2007 2:03 PM, klp_adital wrote: > forwarded message attached. > > > ***** > NOTE: An attachment named DSC-00465.pIf was deleted from this message > because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file > type. > Contact the system administrator for more information. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 14:34:57 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:34:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712010041i4852ecerbb867d29b3d8804a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302343v67ae75bp61afa3f4acb62828@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990712010013y1128683aq93a495cc6e12b446@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712010041i4852ecerbb867d29b3d8804a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990712010104p37d13735o64ba45fb50123291@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, Read my mail. What I mentioned (as a personal viewpoint) is 1. Peaceful cohabitation 2. A common due diligence on all issues 3. Either we can look at playing the retribution game with the Army, 'terrorists' and a host of other labelled people being killed and continuing the cycle of death OR We can stop, use our common sense and try and resolve the central issue which is the displacement of people and the semi-warzone status of Kashmir. You mentioned the same in your statement as one whereas they are two seperate issues of the "exodus of 70000 minorities" and "those who are responsible" - whereas for the second I would hold the government liable. In any case, I have not talked of amnesty. Even though you mentioned that some have been released by the court, go ahead and take up the cases as we are all aware of travesty of justice. What I did mention is that to my personal opinion, the return of the displaced people should be worked at first instead of shouts for more death which the valley has seen enough of. Once that has been managed, treat the other issues on a common platform. And yes, I do call that a peaceful resolution. Rgds, Partha ............................................ On Dec 1, 2007 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > And you answer for a peacful solution is general amnesty to all terrorists > & mass murderers and those who are responsible for exodus of 700000 relegios > minorties in Kashmir . > > is that what you find a resolution and that too peaceful ! > > > On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > That *is* what I was talking about. > > > > We can either focus on Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik and other mentioned by > > you and insist upon retribution and death... > > > > Or we can look at trying to achieve peaceful cohabitation in Kashmir, > > and then due diligence on all the issues. > > > > Besides, the killing of Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik, etc., might satisfy > > some blood / revenge thirsty people, but I fail to understand how it will > > resolve any issue. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ............................................................ > > > > > > On Dec 1, 2007 1:13 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Dear Partha , > > > > > > Though I wished to discuss on many points you have expressed , but for > > > a moment I just wanted to ask you a simple question > > > > > > As regards to people like Yasin malik and Bitta karate .....what is > > > your idea of peaceful solution ? > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that > > > > he's as against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi > > > > one. What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / > > > > encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the POSCO > > > > incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through non-legal > > > > punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that the > > > > constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's > > > > being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the > > > > constitution. > > > > > > > > On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure > > > > out the logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down > > > > every building place that was once something else and replacing it with > > > > whatever it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the > > > > North Block and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you > > > > agree? > > > > > > > > In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a > > > > building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or add > > > > God to that structure. > > > > > > > > I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very > > > > nature of their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, > > > > I certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and > > > > Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national > > > > dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and I > > > > saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri > > > > Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing > > > > except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP > > > > fanaticism makes me distrust them. > > > > > > > > As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has > > > > different wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the > > > > pain. I hear the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. > > > > Do I know the 'ground reality'? > > > > > > > > No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that > > > > conflict has become fragmented with different demands (that have changed > > > > over time, different 'truths' and different hates. > > > > > > > > Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I > > > > do like the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and > > > > to resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing > > > > Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of death. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that > > > > conflict. > > > > > > > > What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful > > > > resolution or retribution? > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > .................... > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of > > > > > current Saudi > > > > > Arabia to the > > > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > > > abominations > > > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I > > > > > would be just > > > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as > > > > > I would > > > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat > > > > > and in > > > > > India. > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > > > > > > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of > > > > > you try > > > > > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I > > > > > wonder > > > > > where does your conscience lead to ? > > > > > > > > > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir > > > > > " , > > > > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the > > > > > ground > > > > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a > > > > > terrorist or a > > > > > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > > > > > figures. > > > > > > > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened > > > > > over a > > > > > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among > > > > > minorties by > > > > > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ > > > > > which > > > > > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have > > > > > ever > > > > > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in > > > > > Kashmir . > > > > > > > > > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same > > > > > time you want > > > > > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > > > > > > > > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though > > > > > thay may be > > > > > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you > > > > > need an anti > > > > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > > > > > > > > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed > > > > > your > > > > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > > > > > > > > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > > > > > state has > > > > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in > > > > > Kashmir . > > > > > > > > > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the > > > > > keyboard. > > > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > > > > > earlier > > > > > > post, > > > > > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment > > > > > meted out to a > > > > > > > > > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi > > > > > Arabia. > > > > > > > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be > > > > > the > > > > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > > > > > intellectual that > > > > > > > > > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms > > > > > of > > > > > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form > > > > > it takes, > > > > > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for > > > > > people > > > > > > like > > > > > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply > > > > > criticize his > > > > > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence > > > > > against > > > > > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who > > > > > have been > > > > > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's > > > > > military > > > > > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in > > > > > being > > > > > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in > > > > > Left Front > > > > > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military > > > > > dictatorship in > > > > > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the > > > > > aegis of > > > > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea > > > > > were to be > > > > > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be > > > > > clear > > > > > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules > > > > > North Korea > > > > > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include > > > > > Iran, the > > > > > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > > > > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. > > > > > It is ruled > > > > > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > > > > > weapons > > > > > > and > > > > > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and > > > > > foreign > > > > > > policy. If the international community was justified in > > > > > operating a set of > > > > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it > > > > > should have > > > > > > > > > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, > > > > > xenophobic, > > > > > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement > > > > > support agency > > > > > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like > > > > > Nawaz > > > > > > Sharif. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of > > > > > British > > > > > > foreign > > > > > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century > > > > > presides over an > > > > > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly > > > > > Salafist brand > > > > > > > > > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and > > > > > its rented > > > > > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the > > > > > world. Its > > > > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > > > > American > > > > > > fighter jets. > > > > > > > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia > > > > > to the > > > > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > > > abominations > > > > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I > > > > > would be > > > > > > just > > > > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, > > > > > as I would > > > > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in > > > > > Gujarat and in > > > > > > India. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > > > > > > > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > > > > Higher > > > > > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to > > > > > receive 200 > > > > > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most > > > > > heinous > > > > > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men > > > > > was > > > > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the > > > > > car of > > > > > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the > > > > > woman > > > > > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to > > > > > be > > > > > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi > > > > > Arabia's > > > > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has > > > > > been > > > > > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > > > > revoked > > > > > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary > > > > > committee for > > > > > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of > > > > > the crime > > > > > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a > > > > > paltry > > > > > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > > > > > > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage > > > > > heinous > > > > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social > > > > > discipline. > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.ne > > > > > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > +919811047132 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 15:35:46 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 16:05:46 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Musee Guimet Press Conference Message-ID: For anyone in Dhaka, there is a press conference starting approx. 4pm BDT at protesting sending of artifacts to Musee Guimet while the citizen's case was still pending. http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/11/30/guimet-protests/ Gallery Shilpangan Road 3/A Dhanmondi Today (Dec 1). From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 16:11:56 2007 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 16:11:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Papers: Water and Cinema Message-ID: Voices from the Waters Call for Papers The brewing storm of Pather Panchali, love, drizzle, umbrellas and sidewalks of Shri 420, the constant downpour of the industrial future in 'Blade Runner'… the liquid grace of water has always fine tuned the iconic scenes of cinema. Cinema owes this blue elixir heightened emotions and delicate charm. As this magical resource increasingly becomes scarce, as the drought sets in, as it is tagged with a price, Deep Focus Film Quarterly proposes to dedicate the April 2008 edition to the cause and celebration of that precious bounty, WATER. We invite well-researched articles on the theme of water in cinema. These may include articles on short and full length feature films and documentaries based in the context of water issues- water scarcity, dams, droughts, floods, global climate change, deforestation, conservation and water as culture and life, interviews with filmmaker-activists working in the field of water and articles tracing the relationship of water and cinema over the ages. Articles having a word-count of between 2000 to 4000 should be neatly typed with double spacing and should reach us by 28th February 2008. It is very important to include film stills to illustrate your article. Please mail in your articles at deep.focus at rediffmail.com, bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com The Editor, Deep Focus Film Quarterly, 33/1-9, Thyagaraja Layout, Jai Bharath Nagar, M.S. Nagar P.O., Bangalore- 560 033. From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Dec 1 16:59:31 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 16:59:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> Dear Pawan, I am well aware of the ground realities of any situation I choose to write about. I am sure, that you must be aware by now that I make it my business to research anything that I write about on the reader list in some detail. I suggest you take a close look at your own levels of awareness of what you claim as your own history (I notice, for instance, that there is as yet no reply from you or Rashneek to my annotations on the history of iconoclasm in Kashmir). And no, I am neither a member, nor a sympathizer of any "M-L type of organization". I would urge you not to make public assumptions about the biographies of individuals you do not know. It's risky, you end up running the risk of being called either a liar, or being exposed as being very ignorant. You also run the risk of being accused (rightly, in my opinion) of defamation if you continue to articulate assumptions of this nature on any public platform. So, be careful. I think that your problem is that you want to put people into neat boxes, on which you want to put labels that your limited understand can make snese of, and then assign you assign to these lablels - roles in the shadow boxing joust of your own imagination. So, first you decided that you would corner us by sending us the details of the atrocities of so called communist regimes, then, when we argued that the atrocities of so called communist regimes are indefensible, you changed tack. When we argued strongly against the atrocities of regimes led by communist parties, such as has happenned in West Bengal, you turned around and defended Buddhadeb Bhattacharya. You tried to invoke Sethusamudran, then, when we said yes, Sethusamudran was a bad idea, you had no space left to squirm. Then you post some atrocity in Saudi Arabia, and we say, yes Saudi Arabia is hell, and now, you have less and less room to maneuver. Really, it must be hard being you. Finally, whenever you have nothing left to say, when your arguments are in shambles, when your misrepresentations stand exposed, you invoke and hurl the term 'intellectual' as a term of abuse. As if the work of evolving a critical understanding of the world were something to be ashamed of. I see no reason to be ashamed of intellectual work, just as I see no reason to be ashamed or any other kind of human activity. Can you imagine a situation where we would go around churlishly accusing each other of being 'pastry cooks', or 'dancers' or 'acrobats' or 'steelworkers' or 'photo shop operators' whenever we were faced with the weakness of our own positions and arguments. It would be absured. It would actually be pathetic. And when you cry 'intellectual' you sound just as absurd, just as pathetic, just as infantile. You write, you argue, you try to present your view of the world. Unfortunately, that makes you an intellectual. Just as what I do makes me an intellectual. There can be debate about the quality of our arguments, about how well they stand up to reason, and to the complexities of our times. There can be arguments about whether or not our intellectual work is of any value. But accusing people of being 'intellectuals' per se, is frankly, neither here, nor there. It is a meaningless statement. We all have a lot of things to do in our lives. And believe me, arguing with you is only a very minor, highly insignificant detail in the rich tapestry of our days. Regardless, it shall continue to be done, whenever it is crucially necessary for it to be done. Take my advice, relax, chill out, think about a few things other than what you have made your pet obsession, and don't jump to the gun all the time. You misfire, badly. And sometimes the bullets ricochet in your own direction. Or as we might say in football parlance "self-goal se bachte raho saathi" ("stay clear of self goals, friend") regards Shuddha On 10:42 am 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" wrote: > > Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how > few of you try to link everything and anything communal happening with > Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead to ? Each time you > quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or > a separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > figures. Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which > happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread > discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of > Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being > destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non > of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to > peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of expression and > at the same time you want all these liberties to be taken with Hindu > relegion. Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even > though thay may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the > same time you need an anti allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist > as well. Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have > closed your thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. Cmon > ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state has > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in > Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on > the keyboard. Pawan Durani > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Pawan, > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > post, and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment > meted out to a young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in > Saudi Arabia. > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual > that I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms > of evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > takes, no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect > for people like Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to > sharply criticize his prevaricating apology for the 'Left > Front' government's violence against its own subjects in West > Bengal > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have > been active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's > military occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all > in being determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in > Left Front ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military > dictatorship in Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs > under the aegis of the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if > North Korea were to be discussed on this list, I would be certain > that there will be clear arguments on this list against the imbecilic > regime that rules North Korea at the moment. The list can be > justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the United States, Russia and > many other countries and states. > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > ruled by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > weapons and influence wielded by British and American corporate > intersts and foreign policy. If the international community was > justified in operating a set of sanctions against the hated South > African apartheid regime, it should have no business in cosying up to > the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, anti-semitic Saudi regime which > is the favourite retirement support agency of third rate dictators > like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz Sharif. > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > foreign policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century > presides over an imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the > particularly Salafist brand of Islam that is held out as an ideal by > the Saudi monarchy and its rented clerics is rightly rejected by the > majority of Muslims in the world. Its significance lies only in that > it is backed by petro-dollars and American fighter jets. > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > abominations that need to be fought, and fought till they are > destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism > perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the short, sharp end of > Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. > > regards. > > Shuddha > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> > wrote: > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes- > and > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > Higher Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to > > receive 200 lashes and prison while the perpetrators of > > humanity's most heinous crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car > > of an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However > > after the woman had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting > > herself to be tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on > > Saudi Arabia's Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her > > punishment for attempting to influence the judiciary through the > > media. > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > revoked and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary > > committee for challenging the judgment, which only punished the > > victim of the crime and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists > > were given a paltry sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.ne t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > From kokopeli at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 23:27:07 2007 From: kokopeli at gmail.com (Sujata & Samantak) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:27:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Final" Interim Report on Citizens' Visit to Nandigram In-Reply-To: <556b1d6b0711301153x1899c04bvde0351d7917ac6ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <556b1d6b0711301153x1899c04bvde0351d7917ac6ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556b1d6b0712010957y1a463168pd19fbc262f8d5b7c@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, As mentioned in my earlier post, here's the "Final" Interim Report. One member of this list asked, "Was it interim report, where all the balancing acts were incomplete, so have to be given finishing touches by the spin doctors of media?" In fact it wasn't. The report had been prepared by friends, who asked me to write to all those I'd sent the report to telling them that some more information would be included in the "final" interim report. Since you have both versions of the interim report, you can judge for yourself whether it has been subjected to "spin" or not. Thank you. Samantak ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Trina Banerjee < trina.banerjee at gmail.com> Date: 30 Nov 2007 12:11 Subject: Final Interim Report :) Dear All, Here's the *FINAL Interim Report* (sounds mighty strange, I realise, but there it is) about our Nandigram visit on the 24rth.I apologize for the delay and the confusion. Do delete the earlier version and take this as our Interim Report. If you have already sent the last version out, as I know some of you have: do take the trouble to send this version out too. If any of you would like to see photos from our visit, write to me personally...I have some, I'll send them over. We've tried to avoid photographing people we've interviewed for safety reasons, but you will get a general idea of the way things look in Nandigram. We wish to take this citizens' initiative forward with further visits, especially with students and teachers...so if you have any ideas/thoughts you'd like to share urgently, do write in to me (along with a note to say whether I have the permission to share those thoughts/ideas/plans with other people who are/wish to be part of the initiative). Lots of love Trina. - -- Trina Nileena Banerjee Doctoral Fellow Centre for Studies in Social Sciences Calcutta. *Final Interim Report of an Independent Citizens' Team from Kolkata * *on the Current State of Affairs in Nandigram* *30 November 2007* As a result of an initiative instituted by women's groups, women's organizations and individuals, an eleven-member women's team of concerned citizens from Kolkata comprising teachers, social activists, researchers and students visited Nandigram on 24 November 2007. Concerned about the repeated disruption of peace in the region, the members decided to visit the affected areas and talk to the local people, with the objectives of showing solidarity with the survivors of violence, documenting people's needs in the current circumstances, and drawing up recommendations based on their understanding of the situation. The people who constituted this team were Kavita Panjabi, Anuradha Kapoor, Rajashri Dasgupta, Saswati Ghosh, Shyamoli Das, Swapna Banerjee, Trina Nileena Banerjee, Shuktara Lal, Sushmita Sinha, Shubhasree Bhattacharya and Sourinee Mirdha. On arrival in Nandigram at the Relief Camp at Brij Mohan Tiwari Shiksha Niketan, the team split into two groups. One talked to the people in the Relief Camp, the other to a woman who had been sexually assaulted and the injured in Nandigram Hospital. One group then proceeded to the villages of Sonachura and Garchakraberia, also stopping at the Bhangaberia Bridge where the CRPF is stationed; the other half of the team went to the village of Daudpur. This interim report comprises the general findings and recommendations of all the members of the team that visited Nandigram on the 24th of November. The specific testimonies and individual stories will be included in the final report. * * *PRIMARY FINDINGS:** * 1) Overall there is a reign of terror; the people are marked by deep fear, disillusionment and depression. Since January, Nandigram has been marked by the violence of the State in tandem with the ruling CPI(M), and the retaliatory attacks by the BUPC[1]<#116921e9aeba257e_1169218d5a46c521__ftn1>. The massive attack of the state on the BUPC procession in March 14th, 2007, clearly violated all democratic norms and involved armed police, para-military forces, as well as armed party cadres, including rampant shooting and widespread sexual abuse of women. Subsequently, in numerous villages post March 14, there were reports that many CPI(M) supporters were forced to flee to relief camps in Khejuri and that their homes were ransacked and looted by BUPC supporters. There has been continued violence since on both sides. However, the build up in the area of the CPI(M) militia, the *Harmad Bahini*, the brutal firing by CPI(M) cadres on November 6, 2007 of BUPC members in Satengabari, Ranichak, Bhangabera and Sonachura, and the torching of nine villages including Simulkunda and Satengabari, followed by the attack on November 10, 2007 at Maheshpur village in Nandigram, when armed CPI(M) cadres fired bullets indiscriminately at a peace rally organised by BUPC with the police taking no steps to intervene, all demonstrate the scale and might of the violence exercised by the ruling CPI(M), with the full support of the State. 2) The people of Nandigram are now living in terror of the CPI(M) which has now taken over most of the Nandigram villages and is out to extract vengeance on the BUPC and its supporters. Criminals who have killed, sexually assaulted and injured people continue to threaten the population of the villages. Many who had tried to return to their villages but had to come back to the Relief Camp spoke of bombs and firing that they heard even on the 23rd night when they had tried to return to their homes. And the night-time threats, especially against women, also continue. Across all the villages, people testified to the complete loss of political freedom – they are being forced to pledge their allegiance to one particular party or the other, and they talked angrily about their right to decide which party they wanted to support. The people in the camp, as well as the majority in the villages, have lost all confidence in the government, administration and police. 3) At the Relief Camp at Brij Mohan Tiwari Shiksha Niketan in Nandigram town, villagers testified to rampant firing, brutal killing and large-scale threats by the cadres of the CPI(M), the ruling party, across the villages of Gokulnagar, Kalicharanpur, Adhikaripara, Simulkunda and Satengabari. About 20-25,000 people have left their homes according to people in the camps. Of them, 3000 to 3500 people had been living in this camp approximately 1500 of whom were still there on 24th November. The People's Health doctors working in the Relief Camp said they had not received any complaints of sexual or physical assault, but mainly children's health related complaints, like cough, fever, diarrhoea. However, many people in the camps carried scars of deep bullet injuries on their faces, stomachs and legs and women told us about a woman who had been gang raped in Satengabari by 6-7 men, who is now in Tamluk hospital. Both her daughters, one about 17, one younger, were abducted. They are still missing. Further, hundreds of women who had fled Kalicharanpur, Adhikaripara, Simulkunda and Satengabari in fear of sexual assault were still in the Nandigram camp. They testified that not only had their homes been looted and burnt down, in villages like Satengabari they had also been severely threatened by CPI(M) cadres, who came around saying "We'll come back at night – light your lamps and wait for us with open doors. Send your men away, we'll come back to you at night." "How can we stay in a place under such threats?" the women asked. Women of these villages are still living in fear of being sexually abused, and young girls have been sent to relatives' homes elsewhere. The fear and insecurity of the villagers – especially the women at the Nandigram camp – has been so high that they have refused to go back to their villages till the CRPF is posted there to ensure their safety and protect them from the violent vengeance of the *Harmad Bahini* comprising CPI(M) cadres. 4) Extensive physical abuse and sexual abuse of women, ranging from rape and forcing of rods into women's vaginas, to rampant sexual harassment, as well as abduction of girls has been reported since March this year, but not much has been done to provide relief to the women, or to initiate investigation against and punish the perpetrators. Such violence against women continues, accompanied by terrifying threats, and there is no evidence of any steps having been taken to curb either. 5) Some of the people who had participated in the unarmed march to Maheshpur on 10th November were arrested and locked up for three days in the school building. The women were subjected to repeated sexual harassment by male CPI(M) cadres who claimed the women were Maoists. 6) In villages such as Garchakraberia, where the CRPF has already been posted, normal life and activity seem to have returned; however, there is simmering tension and fear under the facade of peace. At night, when CRPF personnel go off vigil, assailants begin their attacks again; so people have been forced to flee their homes at night and take shelter elsewhere from fear of reprisal. Villagers claim this is a forced calm and are terrified of what may happen when the CRPF is withdrawn. 7) Some residents of Sonachura also expressed their anger and frustration at the TMC leaders of the BUPC for keeping their own women safe at home, while forcing other women in the villages to join the BUPC marches and threatening to beat and burn down the homes of all who refused. Many people in Sonachura were also scared of admitting to the violence they have faced from the CPI(M), claiming that they had been threatened into silence. 8) The situation in Daudpur is still very tense and the administration should take immediate measures to address this. There is resentment and anger brewing among the villagers. People openly accuse each other of violence while questioning the authority and corruption of particular CPI(M) leaders. Some villagers also claimed that the BUPC forced people to volunteer to stand as night guards against the armed attacks from CPI(M)'s *Harmad Bahini* after 28 October. 9) Villagers testified that the police are playing a partisan role. BUPC members returning to their villages were being arrested, some on false charges. Others are being levied exorbitant "fines" to "compensate for the damages done to the CPI(M) families in the last 11 months." Complaints about the atrocities of the CPI(M) followers were either not registered, or the accused were released after being arrested, without any of the legal procedures being followed. 10) The senior police officer at the Relief Camp refused to comment on most of our questions. He i) hinted at pressure from some political parties ii) implied that work was being made "difficult" due to "interference" iii) said peace is returning to the villages, but the situation is "still difficult". 11) While language is proving to be a barrier for the CRPF in dealing with the volatile situation here, there are apparent efforts to restore peace, including red-flag processions etc. But the atmosphere outside the temporary 'protection' of the Relief Camp is of extreme terror. In spite of all apparent efforts and assurance on the part of the authorities, this terror is persistent. 12) There is a tremendous breakdown of trust. The villages of Nandigram are zones of pregnant silence today – they are zones of seething fear, terror, suspicion and threat. Common people are suffering and living in fear and their tragedy is heightened because of the partisan role played by the police * * *RECOMMENDATIONS:* 1. Non-partisan, just and effective action on the part of the State is the most basic and critical factor for restoring peace in Nandigram. The government must strengthen administrative structures and ensure impartial and immediate action on the part of the administration to instill confidence in the people and normalize the situation in Nandigram. Conditions must be created for people to renew their daily social and economic activities without fear and apprehension of reprisal. 2. The violence in Nandigram must be stopped. i) All arms in the possession of the entire population of all the villages of Nandigram must be confiscated. ii) The area must be rid of all outside cadres. iii) All criminals, irrespective of political affiliation must be arrested immediately and tried; and iv) effective vigilance should be set in place against all those indulging in retaliatory and revengeful acts that will derail the peace process. 3. We demand responsible action now from all the political partiestoo. They must stop exploiting the situation, abstain from violence, and play a constructive role in bringing peace back to Nandigram. 4. Rape and sexual assault have clearly become dominant weapons of war in the crossfire between vested political interests in Nandigram. i) Urgent measures must be taken by the administration and the police to stop this immediately. ii) Perpetrators have been resorting to sexual assault on women to intimidate, humiliate and subjugate the opposition, while the opposition has been using incidents of rape to discredit the perpetrators, not to seek justice for the women affected. We demand a complete and immediate stop to such practices and to all threats of sexual violence too. 5. The administration should also ensure that all rape cases are registered, thoroughly investigated, and followed up. Cases where women have been brutally assaulted should also receive the attention they merit and should not be brushed aside merely because the case was not one of rape. Sexual assault is a serious offence and must be dealt with as such. All victims of sexual assault must be provided immediate medical treatment and their privacy respected and dignity upheld. 6. Both men, and large numbers of women, especially those subject to sexual assault and/or rape, are now severely traumatized and have sunk into visibly deep depression or shock. The government should set up a counselling cell in Nandigram or authorize an NGO to do so for the purpose of trauma alleviation. 7. Those who are suffering from the latest violence, as well as those who have been injured earlier in the year, cannot afford the medicationrequired. Many cannot work as they could earlier. On both counts, their livelihood is adversely affected. Compensation to the injured and raped, and to the families of the dead should be made available on an urgent footing. Women and children have been the worst sufferers of the violence; attention should be paid to their special needs, and efforts made to restore their dignity and confidence in the process of rehabilitation. The SDO/BDO should ensure that the grant promised to repair houses must be distributed without any partisan preference. 8. The presence of the CRPF can ensure only a temporary and forced calm. This is no solution to the reign of terror. The state must set in place peacemaking efforts, and involve all political parties and people's organisations in the region to renew the democratic process and enable citizens to reclaim the lost democratic space for a lasting and just peace in the area. People's political rights must be ensured. Democracy does not mean the rule of the majority, but ensuring the rights and respect of the minority and those holding opposing political opinions and beliefs too. Concerted efforts have to be made, across all political differences, to control the spate of vengeance, and rebuild the confidence of the people of Nandigram who are living with violence as well as the fear of violence on a day to day basis. __________________________ - ------------------------------ [1] <#116921e9aeba257e_1169218d5a46c521__ftnref1> The Bhumi Uchhed Pratirodh Committee (BUPC) is a committee formed by people across the villages of Nandigram in January 2007, to represent the people's movement against the complete absence of democratic processes in the state's move to acquire land for setting up an SEZ. While the state has subsequently announced a withdrawal of its plans to build an SEZ here, the people of Nandigram have no faith in this declaration as they have received no official document to that effect as yet. Nandigram had been a predominantly CPI(M) area till the beginning of this year. The BUPC membership cut across all political parties and included supporters of the ruling CPI(M), the TMC, the BJP, and the SUCI, and the people adopted a black flag as symbol of the BUPC to emphasize its independence as a committee beyond any particular party affiliation. Across the year the TMC has gained force in Nandigram and taken over the BUPC leadership. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 00:50:53 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 01:20:53 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Tintin in Bengal, or Musee Guimet Controversy Message-ID: Tintin in Bengal, or Musee Guimet Controversy Naeem Mohaiemen The two month simmering controversy in Bangladesh over the countroversial loan of priceless, centuries old artifacts to France's Musee Guimet burst into the open yesterday. In the early dawn hours of Friday, a day when many of us are sleeping in, relaxing, addafying, or contemplating unfinished art projects, a convoy of trucks were loaded with crates of artifacts from the National Museum. Headed to ZIA airport, en route to Paris. Is Paris burning, what's the rush..? The French Embassy and some Bangladesh government officials had decided that matters had dragged on long enough. The show was supposed to open 24th October, but Bangladesh citizen groups had thrown a chaku in the works. With a citizens lawsuit blocking the loan, and an investigative committee deadline 45 days away, the first shipment got underway in defiance of good manners and international law. Word leaked out, and protesters gathered. Gates were scaled, human chains formed, a protester was arrested. But the dawn tactics had worked. By the time more people arrived on the scene, the trucks were on their way. Positions hardened further after the truck fiasco. On the evening news, angry phone calls. Apparently some ground staff at the airport did all they could to block the flight. This actually doesn't take much-- just our normal airport bureacracy (which I was cursing out only a month ago when my video camera was falling prey to it) raised a few notches. The Air France cargo plane sat on the tarmac, missing its midnight rendezvous. But finally five hours later, in dawn hours of Saturday, up up and away. When the controversy first broke, many of us were too confused to take sides. On both sides of the fence were cultural producers and activists whom many of us respected. Even the lawyers representing two parties were familiar rights activists. One friend said to me "boba r shotru nai (the deaf-mute has no enemies), best to stay silent bhai. Too many big guns on both sides." The opposition to the loan initially felt like kneejerk nationalism to me. In my naivette I dismissed their concerns. The French are the good guys no, isn't it Americans we are all afraid of now? Surely the French wouldn't dare do anything to our collection, uhh would they..? I spent way too much time reading Tintin comics in my wasted youth. But Tintin in Congo remained untranslated until I found a bootleg copy where Tintin is teaching the African natives "repeat after me, France is your mother". Now I imagined myself as a rubber-lipped sambo. Yessa boss. Did King Leopold collect art as well? I went down to the Alliance Francaise cafe, 5 blocks from my home, to investigate. Alliance administers a benevolent patriarch attitude towards the uninvited unwashed at special events (expats in Dhaka live in splendid bubbles and green zone fortresses). But in the daytime (and at non-guest list events) you can just stroll in. Why did the Guimet want this show so badly? They had already missed the show opening deadline. If there was so much opposition inside Bangladesh, shouldn't they at least show courtesy and sensitivity and delay until the issue is resolved? Tish tosh explained the man at the next table: "the people who oppose the loan just don't want the world to know that this region has such an incredible pre-Islamic heritage." Sounds reasonable. Those who oppose this loan are the enemies of globalization. But then why would Shishir Bhattacharjee, professor at Art College, be one of those opposing the loan. He's always been on the mullah's hitlist of progressive professors... A few days later I saw artist Nisar Hossein's name on the same committee. That's odd I thought, Nisar is no dum-dum either. But it's true that the people opposing the loan were initially not good communicators. Their opposition was often focused on the esoteric edges of the debate, rather than the hard facts. But in the last few weeks they started producing more documentation, and more importantly, footnotes. That's when things changed for many of us, because the facts on the ground don't make you oppose loans to European museums per se, but they do highlight that numerous rules have been broken-- all adding up to extreme lack of safety for the collection. More facts emerged, by and by... 1. Lack of documentation a) entire sets of coins catalogued as "coins", with no specifics b) missing accession numbers c) mismatch between number of pieces documented by the French photographer who catalogued the show, the number given in French embassy contract, and the number in Embassy's press release d) incomplete descriptions, missing descriptions e) ridiculously low insurance value of 4 million Euros, for a collection that dates back to 4th century BC. An international archaeological expert has since called this appraisal "financial fraud". 2. The French role There's no doubt that some of the items in #1 were caused by sheer incompetence and possible mal-intentions of the Bangladesh side. But if Bangladesh officials are incapable of protecting their own national heritage (Bangladesh has been identified as one of 3 countries most vulnerable to cultural looting) should the French government, French Embassy and Musee Guimet take advantage of that weakness? a) Musee Guimet is one of 18 museums that have signed a Declaration on Importance and Value of Universal Museums, which opposes returning art works, especially ancient ones, to their original owners. This is in direct opposition to the UNESCO Convention on Stolen and Illegally Exported Cultural Objects (1995). b) Kwame Opoku has said: "Musée Guimet in Paris which incidentally also holds thousands of stolen/illegal objects from China and the rest of Asia" has increased citizen debate about the lending. c) Guimet director Jean-Francois Jarriage in the late 50's had worked in the department of archeology in Bangladesh (then East Pakistan). During this period, one of the most prized artefacts, a relic casket was taken to France for restoration. Mr. Zakaria, former secretary of the ministry of culture has been unsuccessfully campaigning for the return of the casket for the last 49 years. 3. What next? Now the action moves to France. One shipment of 10 crates is already in Paris. Another shipment of 13 crates may leave very soon as well (another midnight haul?). Bangladeshi activists are starting to petition European media to start building up pressure on Guimet and the French government. Paris-based Bangladeshi artist Shahabuddin and others are planning human chains in front of the Guimet. How far is Guimet willing to go to keep this show. How far are we willing to go? Positions have hardened into stone after Friday's confrontation. An initial draft of the Experts' Letter to the French Government (full letter @ end of this email) included this conciliatory paragraph: "We urge the French government and citizens, museum professionals, preservationists and all global cultural practitioners to demand that Musee Guimet immediately cease plans for the "Masterpieces of the Ganges Delta" show until each archaeological artifact in the Bangladesh collection has been examined, photographed, catalogued, appraised and insurance value set by an international panel of experts. Guimet must also take all due diligence steps to resolve the discrepancy between documents, number of items, accession numbers and all other issues that have given rise to questions about lack of transparency in the entire process." But Friday's surprise shipment, and police action against protesters, have hardened suspicion of the Guimet. The concluding paragraph now reads: "While we were originally open to the idea of showing the work at Musee Guimet provided the transparency issues were addressed, the recent actions of the museum has removed any semblance of trust in the organisation, and we are no longer willing to loan our prized possessions to an organisation with such standards of behaviour. The incident, originally restricted to the issue of an exhibition now appears to have created a general distrust in the French government amongst the Bangladeshi public." Bangladesh gets such a small share of international cultural attention, the prevailing attitude is that any positive global attention is good. Especially after being hit by both flood and cyclone (two months apart) this year, some people may be yearning for some positive international image building. This has historically led to a broken-spine approach to European and Northern cultural institutions. The face-off with Musee Guimet shows that things are changing. Fine Arts Professor Lalarukh Selim said on ETV: "Governments will come and go, but the objects that have left the country, we may never get them back. And we couldn't do anything, or what we did was not enough. All of us who spoke up, the French embassy gave that no value. We're a poor country, so people could do whatever they wanted." Could they? Will they? Guimet, this is not over. - Naeem Mohaiemen ################### Further Reading: ################### 1. Protesters Battle Police As Musee Guimet Trucks Roll Out http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/11/30/guimet-protests/ 2. Shahidul Alam: Price of Priceless Objects http://shahidul.wordpress.com/2007/11/29/the-price-of-priceless-objects/ 3. Letter To The French Government & Citizens Subject: Musee Guimet's Non-Transparent Borrowing of Priceless Artifacts from Bangladesh We the undersigned artists, archeologists, anthropologists, academics & other concerned citizens of Bangladesh are writing to express our strong objection to the manner in which Musee Guimet of Paris is taking invaluable artifacts from the national museum and four other leading museums of Bangladesh for a planned show entitled "Masterpieces of the Ganges delta". The Musee Guimet transported the artifacts even after widespread protests and a pending citizens' lawsuit in the Bangladesh court. The manner in which the artifacts were transported, in a secret crating during early morning hours under police guard, added to the controversy. As news of the secret shipment leaked out, protesters gathered to form a human chain, and one protester was arrested. Finally, the first shipment of 10 crates of rare archaeological treasures was taken away, despite resistance, to be flown to Paris on December 1st on an Air France cargo plane. There is also a second shipment of 13 crates which is still pending. While the exhibition, which has been billed as being of outstanding quality, and consists of the most prized objects from all the major museums of Bangladesh, it is not part of an exchange programme. The only items that the Bangladeshi people will receive in return are 20 exhibition catalogues. The lack of transparency surrounding the planned exhibition at Musee Guimet includes allegations of under-valuation of artifacts to the scale of hundreds of millions of dollars, lack of accession numbers on numerous objects, improper and incomplete cataloguing (e.g., referring to a set of coins as merely "coins", with no numbers given), inconsistency between documents, missing descriptions, and descriptions that do not conform to international standards. The official insurance value of the entire collection (stated to be "189 pieces" by the French Embassy) has been set at 4 million Euros for the purposes of this exhibition loan. Such a low insurance value for such a large collection, which dates back to the 4th century BC, has been described by an international archaeological expert as "financial fraud". Even if this incorrect valuation had been completed by the Bangladesh authorities, one questions why an international museum would accept such a patently incorrect valuation. Most worrying of all, the number of pieces identified in documentation created by the French photographer who catalogued the exhibit does not match with the contract signed by the French Ambassador. The number of artifacts in the contract in turn does not match with the official press releases from the Dhaka French Embassy. The controversy over the improper handling of the loan escalated over the last two months, resulting in a citizens' lawsuit (still pending in court) and Bangladesh citizens' group's demanded that the Bangladesh government and French authorities allowed experts to inspect the items as per international standards. The Bangladesh government asked the expert committee that is investigating the matter for time until January 15th, 2008 to respond to the committee's queries. Astonishingly, the Musee Guimet began shipment of the artifacts on 30th November, 2007 -- a full 45 days before the expiry of the Bangladesh government's self-imposed deadline. The Bangladesh government and French Embassy officials have, without informing either the committee or the media, taken the items out of the museum in the surprise shipment described earlier. Musee Guimet is one of 18 museums that have jointly signed a separate Declaration on Importance and Value of Universal Museums, which opposes returning art works, especially ancient ones, to their original owners. This is in direct opposition to the UNESCO Convention on Stolen and Illegally Exported Cultural Objects (1995). This is particularly relevant since the convention was based on the high incidence of theft that was prevailing. Bangladesh was identified as one of the three most vulnerable countries to such threats. Kwame Opoku's recent statement "Musée Guimet in Paris which incidentally also holds thousands of stolen/illegal objects from China and the rest of Asia" has increased citizen debate about the lending. The French embassy in Bangladesh has dismissed the protesters' concern and said "local procedure in connection with the lending is an internal matter of the Bangladesh government" and there is "no risk in lending artifacts". The embassy also dismissed the protests as "eminent citizens with mixed qualifications, many far outside the field of archaeology, or with little experience of international exhibitions." Guimet director Jean-Francois Jarriage and curator of the show Vincent Lefevre refused to meet with Shahidul Alam, a delegate from the protesters, who traveled to Paris for the purposes of securing an explanation. In his own statement, Jean-Francois Jarriage mentions that in the late 50's he had worked in the department of archeology here. Incidentally, it was during that period that one of the most prized artefacts, a relic casket, of our country, was taken to France for restoration. Mr. Zakaria, former secretary of the ministry of culture, who was then working in the archeology department has since campaigned for the return of the casket, but has failed to get a response from the French government over the last 49 years. The original show at Musée National des Arts Asiatiques - Guimet was billed as "Masterpieces of the Ganges delta. Collections from the Bangladesh Museums." The original scheduled dates for the show were 24th October 2007 to 3rd May 2008. The controversy has pushed back the date of the show, but as of today Musee Guimet remains adamant about showing the work without satisfying the demands of the concerned Bangladeshi citizens. While we were originally open to the idea of showing the work at Musee Guimet provided the transparency issues were addressed, the recent actions of the museum has removed any semblance of trust in the organisation, and we are no longer willing to loan our prized possessions to an organisation with such standards of behaviour. The incident, originally restricted to the issue of an exhibition now appears to have created a general distrust in the French government amongst the Bangladeshi public. Signed A. K. M. Zakaria, archeologist and former secretary, ministry of cultural affairs, GOB (Government Of Bangladesh). Nazimuddin Ahmed, archeologist, former director, department of archeology, GOB. Shamsuzzaman Khan, museologist, former director general, Bangladesh National Museum. Bulbon Osman, art historian, former director institute of fine arts, Dhaka University. Syed Jahangir, painter, former director, department of fine arts, Shilpakala Academy (Academy of Fine and Performing Arts), GOB. Borhanuddin Khan Jahangir, art historian, former pro Vice Chancellor, National University of Bangladesh. A. K. M. Shahnawaz, professor, department of archeology, Jahangirnagar University. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 01:19:54 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 01:49:54 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] URL for Tintin In Bengal Message-ID: The Guimet write-up has been uploaded here. http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal Follow the links at bottom to see images of protest, etc. From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Dec 2 03:37:29 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 03:37:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3136ff0ea4f42814d3db03014e033618@sarai.net> Dear Pawan, Namaskar.Thanks for your prompt reply. 1. What motivates me (and others) to engage with you is the mindless energy you display in promoting your agenda. The list requires regular detoxes after your postings, and I find myself taking on part of that task (along with many others) whenever I think it becomes necessary. But do not mistake this willingness with the fact that I have nothing better to do. 2. Nationalism is an idea with which I have serious philosophical and ethical problems. It is my conscience, not my ego, that comes between me and nationalism. My postings (or any other writing) against the military occupation of Kashmir by the Indian state are not made for the sake of the comfort of my ego, rather it is done in an effort to contribute to a level of awareness I believe that every Indian citizen (and everyone else) should have about the ground realities in Kashmir, because the Indian state's violence in Kashmir is meted out in the name of Indian citizens. I for one, refuse to accept this being done in my name. It is simply unacceptable to me. My refusal stems from ethical grounds, and from my understanding of the ethical and discursive responsibilities that l bear as a citizen, and more importantly, as a human being. 3. I am aware of the fact that your rants against 'pseudo secularism' and 'hollow intellectualism' usually tend to follow postings where you are exposed as being shallow. When your arguments fail, you turn to ad hominem attacks. This is a well established pattern by now. All we need to do in order to substantiate this is to follow the patterns in the archive of this list with patience. 4. I will remind you, that in my four part posting on iconoclasm in Kashmir,posted on Diwali night, there was not a single 'google citation'. Every argument was backed by a quote, in most instances, extracts from the original text in Sanskrit were given. I was reading Rajtarangini, and a few other books that were recommended by none other than the venerable Rashneek Kher, along with other primary and secondary sources, all of which had elaborate and precise citation. The history of iconoclasm in Kashmir was demonstrated as having a much more antique vintage than the advent of Islam in the Kashmir valley. And this was demonstrated with quotations from sources that even you cannot dispute. And no, they were not from google. Your 'familiarity' with the history of iconoclasm may predate the invention of google, but clearly, you are unable to offer a plausible and detailed counter-reading based on your 'familiarity'. That kind of 'familiarity', which insists that you know better simply because of your ethnicity, comes cheap. It will have no purchase here. Work a little harder than simply wearing the shabby costume of identity when you try and make an argument, and you might be taken seriously. If not, you will be exposed repeatedly as a very poor intellectual. An intellectual who is not prepared to take the trouble to substantiate what he says. An intellectual who hides behind the mask of identity in order to fire his pathetic salvos in public. 5.I am glad that you are scared. You should be. Whenever you, or anyone else make incorrect statements about people's biographies and their opinions or ideological affiliations - such as the speculation that - I belong, as you said to some - "M-L type of organization" on a public list, you will be held accountable for your statements. I do not confuse action against defamation and libel with a call for censorship, nor should you, nor should anyone else. Your invocation of Husain at this juncture is totally uncalled for, because Husain has not made statements about the biographies and lives of actual living individuals. I am not an admirer of Husain's art work. But, I believe that he should have the freedom to practice his art work unhindered. The court cases against him, which are all centred around his depictions of Hindu deities, betray the ignorance of the litigants about their own tradition more than they do anything else. Just as your knowledge of the history of Kashmir is nothing more than a travesty, so too, the depth of the awareness of Hindu culture in those who litigate against Husain is next to negligible. All of you, badly need an education, most of all about the things you claim to uphold. Further, If the difference between a warning not to indulge in libel or defamation and the call for censorship is not transparent to you, then I am happy to undertake a tutorial for your benefit. However, that might be very boring for most other people on this list as they all seem to have a greater quantum of intelligence than you are able to muster. 6. You say - "I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write the word Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual again....." Let me suspend any appreciation I might otherwise have had of your weak attempt at ironic, self deprecating humour here. Let me try and take your statement seriously, at face value. If indeed you were to stop making baseless statements on this list because of the fact that your arguments are continuously exposed as being hollow, then this list's policy of being an uncensored space will have been vindicated. Let me remind you that I was not taking objection at the terms "pseudo secularist" or "hollow intellectual" . These terms embody your opinions, and you are free to have them and to advertise them from every rooftop. Opinions are not facts. They represent attitudes to facts. I am concerned here with facts, and your statements masquerading as facts. I was objecting to your saying that I was a member of some "ML type organization". Now either I am, or I am not, a member of an "ML type organization". I am either a sympathizer or not a sympathizer of the idoelogy of an "ML type of organization". One of these statements is a fact, the other is a lie. I am not. Neither a member, nor a sympathizer. You are lying. Saying that someone is a member of something that they are not a member of, amounts to a lie. And that is why you are vulnerable to the charge of defamation. In the long run, the most effective antidote against the most prejudiced opinion, the most intense slander and calumny is a series of open and clear challenges, which can take place only in a situation where the prejudiced statement cannot shine in the martyred halo of being 'censored'. You have been here, you have had your say, and you have been exposed. If in the wake of that, you decide to hold your peace, it only goes to show that free speech, and the diligent, vigilant cultivation of criticality, is in the long run - the most effective measure against the likes of you. I was certain that this was so, but I am grateful to you for having demonstrated, once again, that this is true. Your fear is a sensible fear. If you lie, I will be scary. Very scary. Try and stick to the truth, and to what you know. regards, Shuddha On 10:47 pm 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Hello Shudha , > > NamaskAr.........Hope you dont term me a rightist for using > "NamaskAr" word. > > I could sense from your mail the anger and helplessness you feel . > Before you advise me to chill , please apply that to yourself. > > I still do not understand as to if arguing with me is so > insignificant or minor , what motivates you to reply to each of my > post even if really doesn't matter . I know somewhere you know the > truth as well , and it is an ego in you which keeps you defending > yourself and attacking my nationalistic viewpoint. > > If I write about Pseudo secularists in general , you take it as an > insult to yourself . If I talk about hollow intellectualism which > some believe in ,you again take it so personally . C'mon .....Chill. > I may be referring about someone else as well. > > Well , about your research about iconoclasm , the less said the > better . My knowledge about Kashmir has its roots well before google > was invented. And for those who want to make rest of world believe > that humans came out of eggs, google would help them write long long > stories. > > About my posts on various subject, i believe Partha may like to > confirm it .,....i have at many instances posted an article which I > found interesting . And whenever someone replied , i just said that > these views were not necessarily mine . I always provide a link to > the original. I do not blame you for not understanding these > basics......i have learnt it long back.....it may take you few more > years. > > And about your threat of defamation , well I am scared. So should > others be in this society of double standards . Where a person > defends Hussain but is planning to to encourage people to file a > defamation against me. > > I wonder what others have to say about threat of Shudha. > > I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write the word > Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual again..... > > But are you one for real ? > > Pawan > > > > On 12/1/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > I am well aware of the ground realities of any situation I choose > > to write about. I am sure, that you must be aware by now that I > > make it my business > > to research anything that I write about on the reader list in some > > detail. > > I suggest you take a close look at your own levels of awareness of > > what you > > claim as your own history (I notice, for instance, that there is > > as yet no > > reply from you or Rashneek to my annotations on the history of > > iconoclasm in Kashmir). > > > > And no, I am neither a member, nor a sympathizer of any "M-L type > > of organization". I would urge you not to make public assumptions > > about the biographies of individuals you do not know. It's risky, > > you end up running the risk of being called either a liar, or > > being exposed as being very ignorant. You also run the risk of > > being accused (rightly, in my opinion) of defamation if you > > continue to articulate assumptions of this nature on any public > > platform. So, be careful. > > I think that your problem is that you want to put people into neat > > boxes, on which you want to put labels that your limited > > understand can make snese > > of, and then assign you assign to these lablels - roles in the > > shadow boxing joust of your own imagination. So, first you decided > > that you would corner us by sending us the details of the > > atrocities of so called communist regimes, then, when we argued > > that the atrocities of so called communist regimes are > > indefensible, you changed tack. When we argued strongly against > > the atrocities of regimes led by communist parties, such as has > > happenned in West Bengal, you turned around and defended Buddhadeb > > Bhattacharya. > > You tried to invoke Sethusamudran, then, when we said yes, > > Sethusamudran was a bad idea, you had no space left to squirm. > > Then you post some atrocity in Saudi Arabia, and we say, yes Saudi > > Arabia is hell, and now, you have less and less room to maneuver. > > Really, it must be hard being you. > > > > Finally, whenever you have nothing left to say, when your > > arguments are in > > shambles, when your misrepresentations stand exposed, you invoke > > and hurl the term 'intellectual' as a term of abuse. As if the > > work of evolving a critical understanding of the world were > > something to be ashamed of. I see > > no reason to be ashamed of intellectual work, just as I see no > > reason to be > > ashamed or any other kind of human activity. Can you imagine a > > situation where we would go around churlishly accusing each other > > of being 'pastry cooks', or 'dancers' or 'acrobats' or > > 'steelworkers' or 'photo shop operators' whenever we were faced > > with the weakness of our own positions and arguments. It would be > > absured. It would actually be pathetic. And when > > you cry 'intellectual' you sound just as absurd, just as pathetic, > > just as infantile. > > > > You write, you argue, you try to present your view of the world. > > Unfortunately, that makes you an intellectual. Just as what I do > > makes me an intellectual. There can be debate about the quality of > > our arguments, about how well they stand up to reason, and to the > > complexities of our times. There can be arguments about whether or > > not our intellectual work is > > of any value. But accusing people of being 'intellectuals' per se, > > is frankly, neither here, nor there. It is a meaningless statement. > > > > We all have a lot of things to do in our lives. And believe me, > > arguing with you is only a very minor, highly insignificant detail > > in the rich tapestry of our days. Regardless, it shall continue to > > be done, whenever it > > is crucially necessary for it to be done. Take my advice, relax, > > chill out, > > think about a few things other than what you have made your pet > > obsession, and don't jump to the gun all the time. You misfire, > > badly. And sometimes the bullets ricochet in your own direction. > > Or as we might say in football > > parlance "self-goal se bachte raho saathi" ("stay clear of self > > goals, friend") > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 10:42 am 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and > > looking at how > > > few of you try to link everything and anything communal > > > happening with Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead > > > to ? Each time you quote " Indian States Military > > > Occupation In Kashmir " , without knowing the ground > > > reality talk of your ignorance of the ground reality . You would > > > be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a separatist > > > organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which > > > happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread > > > discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of > > > Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being > > > destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same > time non of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken > > > down to peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of > > > expression and at the same time you want all these liberties to > > > be taken with Hindu relegion. Each time you talk of secular > > > parties which you love even though thay may be aligned with a ML > > > type of organisation and at the same time you need an anti > > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. Each time > > > you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. Cmon > > > ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > state has "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti > > > people in Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than > > > typing few words on the keyboard. Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Pawan, > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > > > earlier post, and as is evident from your posting of the brutal > > > treatment meted out to a young woman who has been the victim of > > > gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be > > > the partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > > > intellectual that I find interesting it the one who has no > > > problem at all in terms of evolving an engaged critique of > > > oppression, no matter what form it takes, no matter where it > > > occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people like Noam > > > Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize > > > his prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' > > > government's violence against its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who > > > have been active on this list in arguing against the Indian > > > state's military occupation of the Kashmir valley have had > > > no problems at all in being determined in our opposition to > > > oppression when it occurs in Left Front ruled West Bengal, in > > > the current conditions of military dictatorship in Burma and > > > Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis of > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea > > > were to be discussed on this list, I would be certain that there > > > will be clear arguments on this list against the imbecilic > > > regime that rules North Korea at the moment. The list can be > > > justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the United States, Russia > > > and many other countries and states. > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. > > > It is ruled by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in > > > place by money, weapons and influence wielded by British and > > > American corporate intersts and foreign policy. If the > > > international community was justified in operating a set of > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it > > > should have no business in cosying up to the sexist, > > > slave-owning, xenophobic, anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the > > > favourite retirement support agency of third rate dictators like > > > Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz Sharif. > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of > > > British foreign policy in the middle east in the early twentieth > > > century presides over an imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, > > > and the particularly Salafist brand of Islam that is held out as > > > an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its rented clerics is rightly > > > rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. Its > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > > American fighter jets. > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia > > > to the venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different > > > kinds of abominations that need to be fought, and fought till > > > they are destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist > > > Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the > > > short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-l > ashes- > > > and > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi > > > > Arabia's Higher Judicial Council has actually sentenced a > > > > rape victim to receive 200 lashes and prison while the > > > > perpetrators of humanity's most heinous crime were > > > > allowed to walk free. > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men > > > > was originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling > > > > in the car of an 'unrelated male' at the time of the > > > > rape. However after the woman had the temerity of not > > > > unquestioningly submitting herself to be tortured as > > > > punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has > > > > been banned from carrying her case further. His license has > > > > been revoked and he has been called to appear before a > > > > disciplinary committee for challenging the judgment, which > > > > only punished the victim of the crime and not its > > > > perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry sentence > > > > of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage > > > > heinous crimes against them in the name of maintaining social > > > > discipline. _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.ne t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader- > list/ > > > > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 03:57:07 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:27:07 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Tintin in Bengal, or Musee Guimet Controversy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4751DFBB.2050904@gmail.com> Naeem, As you know, I was confused, too. Thanks for clearing it up. It is absolutely astounding that the government in Dhaka is sending those priceless treasures to a museum with such a record, but we are used to scandalous behavior from governments in our part of the world. France is different, or should be. One gets the sense that the emerging supranational entity called "Europe" is eager to project itself to the rest of the world as being civilised and humane. If we "Third World nicks" are to believe this, France should rein in Guimet instead of helping it along in a criminally inept or plain criminal enterprise as you have described. If the French want to see those artifacts - and I think that would be a good thing for Bangladesh - their government should take direct responsibility for the exhibits. It should catalog them properly, since the Dhaka museum people have clearly failed to do that, insure them adequately, and ensure their safe return after the display. Tapas Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > Tintin in Bengal, or Musee Guimet Controversy > Naeem Mohaiemen > > From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Sun Dec 2 08:37:39 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 03:07:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered .... In-Reply-To: <3136ff0ea4f42814d3db03014e033618@sarai.net> Message-ID: <889901.85951.qm@web8409.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan and others. Firstly, I want to thank and salute Shuddha for speaking on behalf of all the "hollow intellectuals". Pawan, you must realize that Shuddha is not taking your posts personally but rather speaking on behalf of many of us. No one else seems to have the patience to go through your endless barrage of mails and reply so meticulously and thoroughly. And its not just your ideology that one has to deal with - it is the style and shallowness of your posts that one has to answer. And no one else has been able to deal with that better than Shuddha. I really think that you have no concrete answer to give about Shuddha's Kashmir's iconoclasm mail - that was the greatest challange posed to you and you have failed to respond. We ae still waiting for an equally strong response to that from you. I don't think it was a challenge posed by Shuddha personally, but on behalf of many of us, and we are proud of that... SF (P.S.: I condemn all acts of injustice and brutality meted out by the Saudi govt.) --- shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > Namaskar.Thanks for your prompt reply. > > 1. What motivates me (and others) to engage with you > is the mindless energy > you display in promoting your agenda. The list > requires regular detoxes > after your postings, and I find myself taking on > part of that task (along > with many others) whenever I think it becomes > necessary. But do not > mistake this willingness with the fact that I have > nothing better to do. > > 2. Nationalism is an idea with which I have serious > philosophical and > ethical problems. It is my conscience, not my ego, > that comes between me > and nationalism. My postings (or any other writing) > against the military > occupation of Kashmir by the Indian state are not > made for the sake of the > comfort of my ego, rather it is done in an effort to > contribute to a level > of awareness I believe that every Indian citizen > (and everyone else) should > have about the ground realities in Kashmir, because > the Indian state's > violence in Kashmir is meted out in the name of > Indian citizens. I for one, > refuse to accept this being done in my name. It is > simply unacceptable to > me. My refusal stems from ethical grounds, and from > my understanding of the > ethical and discursive responsibilities that l bear > as a citizen, and more > importantly, as a human being. > > 3. I am aware of the fact that your rants against > 'pseudo secularism' and > 'hollow intellectualism' usually tend to follow > postings where you are > exposed as being shallow. When your arguments fail, > you turn to ad hominem > attacks. This is a well established pattern by now. > All we need to do in > order to substantiate this is to follow the patterns > in the archive of this > list with patience. > > 4. I will remind you, that in my four part posting > on iconoclasm in > Kashmir,posted on Diwali night, there was not a > single 'google citation'. > Every argument was backed by a quote, in most > instances, extracts from the > original text in Sanskrit were given. I was reading > Rajtarangini, and a few > other books that were recommended by none other than > the venerable Rashneek > Kher, along with other primary and secondary > sources, all of which had > elaborate and precise citation. The history of > iconoclasm in Kashmir was > demonstrated as having a much more antique vintage > than the advent of Islam > in the Kashmir valley. And this was demonstrated > with quotations from > sources that even you cannot dispute. And no, they > were not from google. > > Your 'familiarity' with the history of iconoclasm > may predate the invention > of google, but clearly, you are unable to offer a > plausible and detailed > counter-reading based on your 'familiarity'. That > kind of 'familiarity', > which insists that you know better simply because of > your ethnicity, comes > cheap. It will have no purchase here. Work a little > harder than simply > wearing the shabby costume of identity when you try > and make an argument, > and you might be taken seriously. If not, you will > be exposed repeatedly as > a very poor intellectual. An intellectual who is not > prepared to take the > trouble to substantiate what he says. An > intellectual who hides behind the > mask of identity in order to fire his pathetic > salvos in public. > > 5.I am glad that you are scared. You should be. > Whenever you, or anyone > else make incorrect statements about people's > biographies and their > opinions or ideological affiliations - such as the > speculation that - I > belong, as you said to some - "M-L type of > organization" on a public list, > you will be held accountable for your statements. I > do not confuse action > against defamation and libel with a call for > censorship, nor should you, > nor should anyone else. Your invocation of Husain at > this juncture is > totally uncalled for, because Husain has not made > statements about the > biographies and lives of actual living individuals. > I am not an admirer of > Husain's art work. But, I believe that he should > have the freedom to > practice his art work unhindered. The court cases > against him, which are > all centred around his depictions of Hindu deities, > betray the ignorance of > the litigants about their own tradition more than > they do anything else. > Just as your knowledge of the history of Kashmir is > nothing more than a > travesty, so too, the depth of the awareness of > Hindu culture in those who > litigate against Husain is next to negligible. All > of you, badly need an > education, most of all about the things you claim to > uphold. > > Further, If the difference between a warning not to > indulge in libel or > defamation and the call for censorship is not > transparent to you, then I am > happy to undertake a tutorial for your benefit. > However, that might be very > boring for most other people on this list as they > all seem to have a > greater quantum of intelligence than you are able to > muster. > > 6. You say - "I am just too scared to write > ........and wont dare to write > the word Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual > again....." > > Let me suspend any appreciation I might otherwise > have had of your weak > attempt at ironic, self deprecating humour here. Let > me try and take your > statement seriously, at face value. If indeed you > were to stop making > baseless statements on this list because of the fact > that your arguments > are continuously exposed as being hollow, then this > list's policy of being > an uncensored space will have been vindicated. Let > me remind you that I was > not taking objection at the terms "pseudo > secularist" or "hollow > intellectual" . These terms embody your opinions, > and you are free to have > them and to advertise them from every rooftop. > Opinions are not facts. They > represent attitudes to facts. I am concerned here > with facts, and your > statements masquerading as facts. I was objecting to > your saying that I was > a member of some "ML type organization". Now either > I am, or I am not, a > member of an "ML type organization". I am either a > sympathizer or not a > sympathizer of the idoelogy of an "ML type of > organization". One of these > statements is a fact, the other is a lie. I am not. > Neither a member, nor a > sympathizer. You are lying. Saying that someone is a > member of something > that they are not a member of, amounts to a lie. And > that is why you are > vulnerable to the charge of defamation. > > In the long run, the most effective antidote against > the most prejudiced > opinion, the most intense slander and calumny is a > series of open and clear > challenges, which can take place only in a situation > where the prejudiced > statement cannot shine in the martyred halo of being > 'censored'. > > You have been here, you have had your say, and you > have been exposed. If in > the wake of that, you decide to hold your peace, it > only goes to show that > free speech, and the diligent, vigilant cultivation > of criticality, is in > the long run - the most effective measure against > the likes of you. I was > certain that this was so, but I am grateful to you > for having demonstrated, > once again, that this is true. > > === message truncated === Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 11:02:45 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 00:32:45 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered .... References: <889901.85951.qm@web8409.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005a01c834a4$c7f4f6e0$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Well, I sincerely wish I had a jot of Shuddha's patience in me. I can't read some of these mails, let alone respond. And of course eloquence as well. I wish, I could respond in such a cool manner to some of these mails. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S.Fatima" To: ; "Pawan Durani" Cc: Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered .... > Dear Pawan and others. > Firstly, I want to thank and salute Shuddha for > speaking on behalf of all the "hollow intellectuals". > Pawan, you must realize that Shuddha is not taking > your posts personally but rather speaking on behalf of > many of us. No one else seems to have the patience to > go through your endless barrage of mails and reply so > meticulously and thoroughly. And its not just your > ideology that one has to deal with - it is the style > and shallowness of your posts that one has to answer. > And no one else has been able to deal with that better > than Shuddha. > > I really think that you have no concrete answer to > give about Shuddha's Kashmir's iconoclasm mail - that > was the greatest challange posed to you and you have > failed to respond. We ae still waiting for an equally > strong response to that from you. I don't think it was > a challenge posed by Shuddha personally, but on behalf > of many of us, and we are proud of that... > > SF > > (P.S.: I condemn all acts of injustice and brutality > meted out by the Saudi govt.) > > > > --- shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > >> Dear Pawan, >> >> Namaskar.Thanks for your prompt reply. >> >> 1. What motivates me (and others) to engage with you >> is the mindless energy >> you display in promoting your agenda. The list >> requires regular detoxes >> after your postings, and I find myself taking on >> part of that task (along >> with many others) whenever I think it becomes >> necessary. But do not >> mistake this willingness with the fact that I have >> nothing better to do. >> >> 2. Nationalism is an idea with which I have serious >> philosophical and >> ethical problems. It is my conscience, not my ego, >> that comes between me >> and nationalism. My postings (or any other writing) >> against the military >> occupation of Kashmir by the Indian state are not >> made for the sake of the >> comfort of my ego, rather it is done in an effort to >> contribute to a level >> of awareness I believe that every Indian citizen >> (and everyone else) should >> have about the ground realities in Kashmir, because >> the Indian state's >> violence in Kashmir is meted out in the name of >> Indian citizens. I for one, >> refuse to accept this being done in my name. It is >> simply unacceptable to >> me. My refusal stems from ethical grounds, and from >> my understanding of the >> ethical and discursive responsibilities that l bear >> as a citizen, and more >> importantly, as a human being. >> >> 3. I am aware of the fact that your rants against >> 'pseudo secularism' and >> 'hollow intellectualism' usually tend to follow >> postings where you are >> exposed as being shallow. When your arguments fail, >> you turn to ad hominem >> attacks. This is a well established pattern by now. >> All we need to do in >> order to substantiate this is to follow the patterns >> in the archive of this >> list with patience. >> >> 4. I will remind you, that in my four part posting >> on iconoclasm in >> Kashmir,posted on Diwali night, there was not a >> single 'google citation'. >> Every argument was backed by a quote, in most >> instances, extracts from the >> original text in Sanskrit were given. I was reading >> Rajtarangini, and a few >> other books that were recommended by none other than >> the venerable Rashneek >> Kher, along with other primary and secondary >> sources, all of which had >> elaborate and precise citation. The history of >> iconoclasm in Kashmir was >> demonstrated as having a much more antique vintage >> than the advent of Islam >> in the Kashmir valley. And this was demonstrated >> with quotations from >> sources that even you cannot dispute. And no, they >> were not from google. >> >> Your 'familiarity' with the history of iconoclasm >> may predate the invention >> of google, but clearly, you are unable to offer a >> plausible and detailed >> counter-reading based on your 'familiarity'. That >> kind of 'familiarity', >> which insists that you know better simply because of >> your ethnicity, comes >> cheap. It will have no purchase here. Work a little >> harder than simply >> wearing the shabby costume of identity when you try >> and make an argument, >> and you might be taken seriously. If not, you will >> be exposed repeatedly as >> a very poor intellectual. An intellectual who is not >> prepared to take the >> trouble to substantiate what he says. An >> intellectual who hides behind the >> mask of identity in order to fire his pathetic >> salvos in public. >> >> 5.I am glad that you are scared. You should be. >> Whenever you, or anyone >> else make incorrect statements about people's >> biographies and their >> opinions or ideological affiliations - such as the >> speculation that - I >> belong, as you said to some - "M-L type of >> organization" on a public list, >> you will be held accountable for your statements. I >> do not confuse action >> against defamation and libel with a call for >> censorship, nor should you, >> nor should anyone else. Your invocation of Husain at >> this juncture is >> totally uncalled for, because Husain has not made >> statements about the >> biographies and lives of actual living individuals. >> I am not an admirer of >> Husain's art work. But, I believe that he should >> have the freedom to >> practice his art work unhindered. The court cases >> against him, which are >> all centred around his depictions of Hindu deities, >> betray the ignorance of >> the litigants about their own tradition more than >> they do anything else. >> Just as your knowledge of the history of Kashmir is >> nothing more than a >> travesty, so too, the depth of the awareness of >> Hindu culture in those who >> litigate against Husain is next to negligible. All >> of you, badly need an >> education, most of all about the things you claim to >> uphold. >> >> Further, If the difference between a warning not to >> indulge in libel or >> defamation and the call for censorship is not >> transparent to you, then I am >> happy to undertake a tutorial for your benefit. >> However, that might be very >> boring for most other people on this list as they >> all seem to have a >> greater quantum of intelligence than you are able to >> muster. >> >> 6. You say - "I am just too scared to write >> ........and wont dare to write >> the word Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual >> again....." >> >> Let me suspend any appreciation I might otherwise >> have had of your weak >> attempt at ironic, self deprecating humour here. Let >> me try and take your >> statement seriously, at face value. If indeed you >> were to stop making >> baseless statements on this list because of the fact >> that your arguments >> are continuously exposed as being hollow, then this >> list's policy of being >> an uncensored space will have been vindicated. Let >> me remind you that I was >> not taking objection at the terms "pseudo >> secularist" or "hollow >> intellectual" . These terms embody your opinions, >> and you are free to have >> them and to advertise them from every rooftop. >> Opinions are not facts. They >> represent attitudes to facts. I am concerned here >> with facts, and your >> statements masquerading as facts. I was objecting to >> your saying that I was >> a member of some "ML type organization". Now either >> I am, or I am not, a >> member of an "ML type organization". I am either a >> sympathizer or not a >> sympathizer of the idoelogy of an "ML type of >> organization". One of these >> statements is a fact, the other is a lie. I am not. >> Neither a member, nor a >> sympathizer. You are lying. Saying that someone is a >> member of something >> that they are not a member of, amounts to a lie. And >> that is why you are >> vulnerable to the charge of defamation. >> >> In the long run, the most effective antidote against >> the most prejudiced >> opinion, the most intense slander and calumny is a >> series of open and clear >> challenges, which can take place only in a situation >> where the prejudiced >> statement cannot shine in the martyred halo of being >> 'censored'. >> >> You have been here, you have had your say, and you >> have been exposed. If in >> the wake of that, you decide to hold your peace, it >> only goes to show that >> free speech, and the diligent, vigilant cultivation >> of criticality, is in >> the long run - the most effective measure against >> the likes of you. I was >> certain that this was so, but I am grateful to you >> for having demonstrated, >> once again, that this is true. >> >> > === message truncated === > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From surya_rajan21 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 12:38:34 2007 From: surya_rajan21 at yahoo.com (surya upadhyay) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:08:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Final Posting: Guru on the Air Message-ID: <647076.87678.qm@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi All, This is the final posting. Sorry for delay. it is appropriate to talk here about the content of satsang of Bapu and the way people adapt his ideas. Here, I am discussing about public sociability that has been developed by Bapu through the telecast of his satsang on television. The major content in the satsang of Bapu is towards the achievement of self-realization, freedom from this-worldly life and vicious circle of birth and death. He has adapted Vedantic philosophy about the ultimate truth. Apart from this, Bapu holds the view the truth is ultimate but there are many ways through which that could be approached. In his fold, it is observable that the age-old paths that were prevalent in classical Hinduism viz. Bhakti marga, Karma marga, Jnana marga; all are running simultaneously. The mode for public sociability is done through mass media and television is one out of them. However, media is just a mode to reach out the vast number of followers spread all around the globe. While writing about the followers of Mata Amritanandamayi, Warrier (2003) argues: “The religious belief and practices of these persons reveals, is neither the product of external authorization, nor the result of unquestioning allegiance to, and conformity with, centuries-old traditions handed down to them by preceding generations. Instead, it is the result of their self-authorship, where each individual creates and constructs a personal and individual creativity and innovation” (Warrier 2003: 248). In one sense, it appears correct to say that the contemporary gurus give a range of choices where a person could feel about its individuality and the spiritual growth comes from self-authorship but the question is where does this self-authorship comes from? And in my sense, what she says that this self-authorship is a result of their individual creativity and personal innovation is arguable because spiritual growth was always personal striving and interest but person always looked at the instructions given by the guru or master. However, this takes us up to the point that I want to assert here that in Bapu’s fold and perhaps in many new-age guru fold, there is a diversity of practices but that diversity is not out of one view that the guru as authority holds. In this sequence, I proceed towards the end of the conclusion by making a continuum between two approaches adopted by scholars for understanding the impact of mass media on religion. These two bipolar approaches are- deliberative and disciplinary. Responding to Warrier argument of exclusivity of followers from their guru, it might is apparently correct that the followers/ devotees and their views are not exclusive to their gurus rather whatever ideologies their gurus propagate, they choose from that. Since the realm of argumentation and practices of the modern god-person are so big that everybody gets things that are preferred by them. Certainly, they could choose and drop according to their own inclination but these elements come only from the guru. So, the scholars who approach the impact of mass media on religion either through disciplinary or deliberative way both are correct in some sense. From disciplinary approach, it is true that because of media practices dialogic aspect has ended and is negotiated by the freedom of choices given to the followers. It is a space where media helps in propelling the ideological aspect of the guru and its democratization. Lastly, media has facilitated satsang of Bapu and it is a pious entertainment medium for the followers where people continuously engage themselves with religious and spiritual virtues and also it has become an agent for personal proselytization of people towards the guru in very gradual fashion by continuously listening to the satsang on media space. It is directing towards practicality of Hinduism as people do not look at rituals and practices rather these are being replaced by the meditative and contemplative techniques. The reverence for Bapu is not directly negotiated, as God or form of God rather the place is accorded as a Guru who is considered as the gateway to the God by the Hindus. In this sense, the modern media is facilitating the gurus to prove their authority over the scriptures and reestablishing a power of a set of different kind of authority. Wishes Surya Prakash Upadhyay I-Fellow Sarai 07. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 15:41:39 2007 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 15:41:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Infusing resistance with creativity Message-ID: <3457ce860712020211o63b48436i262237000c3836c8@mail.gmail.com> Infusing resistance with creativity http://www.hindu.com/mag/2007/12/02/stories/2007120250110500.htm ANINDITA SENGUPTA K.P. Sasi's new film is a moving account of the struggles of India's traditional fishing communities. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I derive my creativity from life. You need creativity to jump onto a running bus, to hang on in a local train in Mumbai, to cook sambar well. All protest is creative." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whose sea is it anyway? The question begs an answer. Increasingly, the coast is under threat from industries like sand mining, tourism and organised fisheries, which erode the rich ecosystem and threaten the rights of traditional fishing communities. The only piece of legislation that stands between these forces and the sea is the Coastal Regulation Zone (CRZ) notification of 1991, which regulates industrial and commercial activity on the coasts. Since its institution, the CRZ notification has been violated or diluted several times and, in the wake of globalisation, is being viewed as an obstacle to "development". Bold indictment Plans are afoot to replace it with the Coastal Zone Management (CZM) notification, based on the recommendations of the committee chaired by M.S. Swaminathan in 2005. Fishing communities in Kerala and Tamil Nadu, who have been struggling to protect their 'mother sea' for many years, are protesting this move for multiple reasons. K.P. Sasi's "Resisting Coastal Invasions", a 52-minute documentary, vividly captures both the magnitude of the threat and the heroism of the fishing communities. It analyses the ramifications of the CZM notification and the dire consequences it will have on the 10,00,000 fisherfolk populating India's coasts. The film is a bold indictment of the government's plans to deregulate the coastal zones. In person, Sasi minces no words either. "The traditional fishing community will be removed from the coast," he says. "Already in Allepey district in Kerala, 40 per cent of the coast has been taken over by tourism. The same thing will happen everywhere." Fishing communities, already reeling from the many violations of the CRZ, are worried that the CZM notification will only make it easier for industries to invade the coast. They believe that the notification will threaten their land rights and open up all "vacant land" of coastal panchayats for commercial development and the proposed system of vulnerability mapping will threaten their livelihoods. Sasi waxes indignant: "Who decides what is vulnerable? The state will decide and it will be led by the industrial lobby. The fisherfolk will lose their land rights and housing rights. The dilution of the CRZ creates space for the invasion of tourism and other industries." If K.P. Sasi sounds more like an activist than a filmmaker, it's because he identifies himself as one. "I am an activist first. The filmmaking is an extension of that." He goes on to expand on his view of creativity. "I derive my creativity from life. Mainstream views of creativity are set in certain norms. If you write, act, make films, sing, you are creative. But I think life is creative. You need creativity to jump onto a running bus, to hang on in a local train in Mumbai, to cook sambar well. All protest is also creative. To make an impact, you have to protest in a creative manner." Sasi's engagement with the fishing community's struggles has been a long one. In 1985, he directed "We Who Make History" and "That Angry Arabian Sea", which depicted the social and ecological problems of trawling and the subsequent protests and later, in 1989, he made "A Campaign Begins" on their national march. "I have a very old equation with the Kerala fisherpeople," he explains. "They have survived the struggle for a long time. We started working on this film soon after the struggle against CZM started. It took two years to make and I wouldn't say it is a complete film. The problems shown are representative of the thousands of violations on the coast." For the film, Sasi travelled through Kerala and Tamil Nadu to capture some of the disastrous effects that coastal exploitation has already had — a depleted coastline, sea water flooding, traditional fisherfolk rendered homeless and landless. The film exposes the sand mining mafia in Kolavipalam and the effect of the Sethusamudram project. It talks about how, ironically, the CRZ was used to prevent traditional fishing communities from returning to their homes after the tsunami. The conflict between commercial interests and the lives of ordinary people is a common trope in Sasi's work. Many of his films have explored the collision of industrialisation and so-called development with nature and the people whose lives are closely intertwined with it. "A Valley Refuses to Die" (1990) explored the social and ecological problems created by the Narmada Dams and, more recently, in "The Source of Life for Sale" (2004), he exposed the impact of privatisation of water in India. He attributes this to his beginnings in the highly politicised environment of JNU where he spent nights discussing both "political ideology and action". "I came from a Left background," he says, "so I was always interested in people's struggles. When I started making films, I visited the fisherpeople communities. I used to go and sit with them. It excited me." Space for discussion Sasi is optimistic about film as a medium of social change but with characteristic humility, he clarifies that he is not a representative of the movement, merely a supporter. "Different people act at different levels. There are hundreds of ways that people can help. I believe that people respond to stimulus. A discussion is a process. You need several processes like that." By consistently creating the space for such discussions through his films, Sasi infuses his art with his beliefs — and remarkably enough, does justice to both. Dear friends, Copies of the film are distributed by Visual Search @ Rs. 250/- for individuals andRs. 500/- for institutions. For copies and further information, please contact: K.P. Sasi, Visual Search, 103, Mayflower Laxmi Apts, 63, Sultanpalya Main Road, R.T. Nagar, Bangalore-32. Phone: (0)9945282056. Web: www.visualsearch.org E-mail: visualsearch1 at gmail.com Regards, T.Peter President, KSMTF http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From ghosh.ranu at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 18:52:12 2007 From: ghosh.ranu at gmail.com (ranu ghosh) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 05:22:12 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Changing Industrial Landscape in Kolkata-end posting Message-ID: <80ea5720712020522y3d16ebecre6828623e91b4c91@mail.gmail.com> *The changing industrial landscape of Kolkata: documenting the transformation of a half century old factory, Joy Engineering Works, into Kolkata's South City Project, "Eastern India's largest mixed use real estate development"* *Posting 7:* This is the end posting of my fellowship .It is time to say a few concluding remarks, sum up my observations and express my gratitude to all those who have helped me directly or indirectly. I cannot claim that my project will bring earth shattering changes on the face of the city, but I do hope that it has created an awareness among many people – specially the young generation, that all is not well with the so called 'development' we are witnessing all around us, that there is always more to what meets the eye and that the time has come to start thinking about rehabilitating the huge number of people whose lives have been upset by the 'development'. My life has got irreversibly linked to the lives of some of these people – and my concerns for them will not end with my project. I shall continue to laugh and cry with them, their future will affect my future and I shall continue to voice my protests in my own way. I do need all your help, co-operation and interest in this ongoing 'resistance'. *An overview of my observations:* *Role of citizens: *Initially, the citizens in the neighbourhood of South City had put up a lot of resistance. They had complained to the police station about the noise and environmental pollution, they had voiced their protest publicly and had even filed a case against South City. In the course of two and a half years, they have become passive and resigned to the notion that nothing is going to change. Some of the citizens who had given leadership to the movement, have been taken ill and can no longer play an active role. Many of them have been threatened by the political parties and refuse to air their views. Some of them are determined to see only the 'positive' side of the development. They are looking forward to the shopping malls and other facilities that are going to come up in the South City premises. Many youngsters in the neighbourhood see this big project as an employment opportunity and some other youngsters have been inducted by the political parties as their 'agents'. All the political parties seem to have a stake in the South City project and the lumpen 'agents' of these political parties safeguard their interest through terror and bribery. In a nutshell, people have become self centered and are looking at only short term gains. *Role of NGOs and activist groups: *Several renowned environmental activists had begun a crusade against the Bikramgarh Jheel. But they have not been able to sustain their activism. Perhaps they have realized that the interest of too many big players is linked with the Jheel. The players are too powerful for the activists to negotiate or have a dialogue with. Perhaps the activists have begun to believe that voicing protests about the Jheel and its environment is not going to serve their interest in any way and give them any mileage. NGOs whose work is linked to different aspects of urban development, have told me on different occasions that South City does not come under the purview of their work. It is not their project and so they have steered clear of the engulfing monstrosity coming up on the face of the city. *Role of media: *At one point of time, South City was headline news in the English as well as Bengali newspapers. After cases were filed against the project, reporting about South City stopped. Thus the controversies in project have faded from public memory. My contention is that, the media should have kept the issue alive by regularly giving reports about the project at least in the pages devoted to local news. If the Rizwanur case can merit headlines for more than a month, why not South City? Some journalists are continuing to follow the story in all sincerity, but they are never sure whether their stories will see the light of the day. The electronic media has totally cold shouldered the project. They are the ones who could have swayed public opinion. *Trade Union Leaders: *The only trade union active* *among the Usha Factory workers is CITU and the leader of the union is Bimal Chatterjee. He is widely perceived as a 'middle man'. I am told that he gets lump sum from both South City and Jay Engineering Works for keeping the unrest of the workers in check and he has to pass on much of this money to the Party office. For the workers, he is the only Godfather who would safeguard their interest. It was Bimal Chatterjee who urged the 14 workers who did not take VRS to file a case. The case has no sign of being over. The workers are facing an uncertain future. They are totally helpless and dependent on Bimal Chatterjee. The lawyers are friends of Bimal Chatterjee and it is anybody's guess what unofficial brief the he gives the lawyers. By prolonging the case, the workers have been demoralized. Eventually when the workers will be totally demoralized, Chatterjee will arrange to give them, say, 50,000/- or 100000/- per head - a mere fraction of the compensation they are fighting for. The defeated, demoralized workers with an uncertain future will be forced to accept that amount. Both, the political parties, as well as the builders, need someone like Bimal Chatterjee to do the fine balancing act. *Bikramgarh Jheel: *The Bikramgarh Jheel is on its last legs. In an urban scenario, people's lives do not directly depend on a water body. A pond or a lake is more of a luxury – a variety in the landscape. So the common person does not understand the environmental importance of a jheel. Indifference stems from this lack of understanding. So the encroachers are happily filling up the jheel to create some real estate. *South** City as the trendsetter: *Directly or indirectly, South City is out to change the entire topography of South Calcutta. There will be flyovers over Anwar Shah Road to facilitate the smooth passage of the residents. There will be a fly over at the rear of the premise too. The pillars supporting this fly over will be planted inside the Bikramgarh Jheel. Houses will be pulled down to make room for the fly over. There is a strong rumour that South City authorities bought the Bengal Lamp premise and star the construction of another cluster of towers. *Court cases against South City:* Cases have been filed against South City by Bhaskar Gupta – a citizen living in the neighbourhood, by Javed Khan – an MLA, and by Shambhu Prasad Singh.* * All the cases are pending in court. Justice delayed is justice denied. In this prolonged battle for justice, people are drained of health, wealth and hope. Sheer struggle for survival takes over and tending the court case takes a back seat. Court cases die a natural death or eventually they settle for an out of court settlement. *Is the future as rosy as it seems?* The singularly strange thing about South City is that, in spite of all the cases pending in court, the construction work did not stop. The towers are nearing completion and the process of handing over the apartments will begin soon. When the P.N. De committee commissioned by the Pollution Control Board submitted their report that towers 3 and 4 have been built on the ground after partly filling up the water body, the court ordered the towers to be pulled down. Later, setting an unparalleled example, the court modified its order and declared that South City may have to pull down the construction if the verdict is eventually passed against them. The big question is, what are the chances of the verdict being eventually passed against South City? We are told by reliable sources that the report submitted by the Shri B.P. Gopalika, Director of Land Access & Survey, is scathing and entirely unfavourable for South City. The following data is mentioned in this report: *a) Land area found during survey: 30.23 acres* * Land area purchased: 29.83 acres* * EXCESS LAND AREA: 0.40 acres* * b) Water body area found during survey: 1.90 acres* * Water body area purchased: 1.31 acres* * EXCESS WATER BODY AREA: 0.59 acres* * TOTAL AREA FOUND IN EXCESS: 0.40 + 0.59 = 0.99 acres * The above data has been collected through satellite mapping and other modern scientific methods. The data has been submitted to the court. Will the court pass a verdict against South City on the basis of this report? If it does, will the towers be pulled down? I have been told that soon the court will send inspectors to verify the reports of the Land Use Dept. This inspection team may ask Shambhu to be a witness to the developments. Who can be a better witness than Shambhu? But South City is going full swing with the handing over formalities. Can they afford Shambhu's damaging testimonial at this stage? Some officers of the South City have already pleaded to Shambhu to keep quiet about the illegitimate filling of the water body. Shambhu is perhaps the only witness to this illegitimate process and his testimonial may sway the court's verdict against South City. Shambhu is having a nagging suspicion that guards in plain clothes have started keeping an eye on him. They hang around his quarter all the time and follow him wherever he goes. Shambhu's quarter is an eyesore in the middle of the swank new constructions. It has been cordoned off to hide it from public gaze. Shambhu asks, how will the residents of the 35th floor be spared the eyesore of their existence? *Shambhu's update:* Shambhu was told by his lawyer that his case has been dismissed. I met his lawyer and asked him the reason for the dismissal. The lawyer said that Shambhu did not turn up in court. He was not interested in continuing the case. I told the lawyer that Shambhu could have been informed about the hearing. He now has a mobile phone. Now an appeal has been forwarded to reconsider Shambhu's case. He continues to live in the South City premises without water or electricity and works as a bus conductor to earn his livelihood. *An appeal: * Shambhu is a lone fighter. The odds are all against him. There are few people he can trust . Now, since he is the potential witness for the inspection team, his life is at threat. It is an appeal to all of you to extend some help to Shambhu Prasad Singh – financial support for his court case, moral or otherwise. *My plans:* I am presently making a film on Shambhu and his admirable resistance. This is my way of voicing a protest and make Shambhu's story known. Glimpses of my film will be seen at the SARAI presentation in Delhi on 6th of December. Your feedback and informed opinion is very valuable to me. I also need some financial assistance to finish my film. If you know of any organization that can support my project, do let me know. I am also looking forward to continuing my work on Changing Industrial Landscape and taking it to a more definitive conclusion. I would like to observe the changing scenario for another six months , when people move into South City, what is the impact on environment and the people. *My last update: A significant turn of events:* On 26.11.07, The Telegraph Metro carried a news item "Landfill tag on realty sprawl: Survey accuses project on encroaching water body." Among other things, the news story quotes the state environment secretary M.L. Meena, "We have received the survey report and handed it over to Calcutta High Court". The author of this article is Jayanta Basu. He has been following the South City beat for quite some time. Jayanta told me that he had submitted this article to The Telegraph quite some time back. Now he is happy that the article is finally out. But from very day he is getting ph calls from builders and the party leaders. Could there be any other 'game plan' behind publishing this article now? *In conclusion:* It is unlikely that* *the South City towers will be pulled down. A lot of money will change hands and the verdict will be swayed in their favour – or the verdict will be suppressed permanently. Perhaps a fresh case against South City can rejuvenate matters and renew the citizens' interest in the issue. It is evident that South City has the blessings of the ruling Party. Otherwise they could not have progressed as far as they have. However, what is interesting is, presently, the media and the intellectuals are up in arms against the ruling party and the West Bengal Govt. Repeatedly, the Govt. is being forced to go on the defensive – with the Nandigram issue, with Taslima Nasreen and with Rizwanur Rahman. But in spite of the present 'anti govt.' air around us, nobody is opening their mouth about the Govt's covert role in covering up the crimes of South City. Why is nobody using this golden opportunity to lash out at the ruling party, embarrass the WB Govt. and bring the South City misdeeds in the open? That is the big question with which I would like to end my postings. *Acknowledgement:* I thank the following organizations for providing resource material for my study: Vasundhara (Environmantal group) Manthan (Journal) Ek Din (Newspaper) Calcutta Metropolitan development Authority Dept of Urban Development, Govt. of West Bengal, India Pollution Control Board, Govt. of West Bengal I thank the following persons for patiently discussing the details of this case and frankly sharing their experience: Mohit Roy Jayanta Basu Sudev Biswas Malini Bhattacharya Mihir Bhattacharya Bhaskar Gupta Shambhu Prasad Singh Chandravanu Kaustav Basu Bipul Gangopadhya Shovan Dasgupta From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Dec 2 19:21:23 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 19:21:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Apologies to Pawan Durani Message-ID: <3001ac39090c2772ec9615dc468b72bd@sarai.net> Dear Pawan, dear all, I owe Pawan Durani and all on the list an apology. He is right, his mail did not state that I am a member of an "ML type of organization". It was wrong on my part to have accused him of having done so. His statement amounts not to a categorical statement but to an insiniuation - (secular parties that I am supposed to 'love' even though they 'may be aligned with a ML type of organization') - and one cannot mistake an insinuation for defamation. 'May be' is not 'is'. And it is incorrect and unfair on my part to say Pawan has said 'is' when he has only said 'may be'. On this score, I plead guilty. So the question of defamation does not arise. My raising the questions of defamation and libel were uncalled for, and I am unconditionally sorry to have subjected everyone on the list, including Pawan to this discussion.It only goes to show that I should be more careful in responding to mails. I have no hesitation in withdrawing the remarks pertaining to defamation and libel. What Pawan said, referring to me, as he has rightly pointed out, was - "Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though they may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an anti-allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well." Having delivered my apologies, and withdrawn my earlier stupid, and over-reaching outburst at Pawan, I still fail to see which exactly are the secular parties aligned with an ML type of organisation that Pawan Durani says I love. I am unaware of these strong feelings, (Love, is a strong feeling) and am oblivious to who the recipients of these strong feelings might be. Also, when exactly have I talked about them? Would anyone care to enlighten me? regards, and apologies again Shuddha PS. I am glad that Pawan has responded, belatedly to my annotations on the history of iconoclasm. However, his respons, tepid as it is, does not address the substance of what I said in those four set of postings. Readers will recall, that my discussion of KIlam and Kaul's books (which are the only references that Durani has responded to in his last mail) were only in the final posting. The first three postings are devoted mainly to a discussion of evidence gleaned from primary sources, especially Kalhana's 'Rajtarangini'. As for Advaitavadini Kaul's book, my criticism of its invocation by Rashneek Kher did not rest primarily on the Indian nationalist viewpoint of its publishers. Rather, I was concerned to establish that Advaitavadini Kaul had not in fact stated that Buddhist shrines were not destroyed by Hindu rulers in Kashmir (as Kher had asserted that she had) . Rather, she had simply avoided discussing the issue of pre-Islamic iconoclasm in Kashmir. This ommission, or elision, I repeat, I find surprising, given that having been KIlam's editor, and a scholar of the Kashmiri Sanskrit canon, she (Kaul) cannot but be familiar with the body of textual material that points repeatedly to instances of pre-islamic Iconoclasm in Kashmir. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 13:13:51 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:13:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70711302343v67ae75bp61afa3f4acb62828@mail.gmail.com> Dear Partha , Though I wished to discuss on many points you have expressed , but for a moment I just wanted to ask you a simple question As regards to people like Yasin malik and Bitta karate .....what is your idea of peaceful solution ? Pawan On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that he's as > against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi one. > What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / > encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the POSCO > incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through non-legal > punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that the > constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's > being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the > constitution. > > On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure out the > logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down every > building place that was once something else and replacing it with whatever > it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the North Block > and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you agree? > > In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a > building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or add > God to that structure. > > I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very nature of > their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, I > certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and > Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national > dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and I > saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri > Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing > except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP > fanaticism makes me distrust them. > > As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has > different wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the > pain. I hear the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. > Do I know the 'ground reality'? > > No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that conflict has > become fragmented with different demands (that have changed over time, > different 'truths' and different hates. > > Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I do like > the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and to > resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing > Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of death. > > > Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that > conflict. > > What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful resolution > or retribution? > > Rgds, Partha > .................... > > > On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current > > Saudi > > Arabia to the > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > abominations > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > just > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > would > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in > > > > India. > > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of you > > try > > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I wonder > > where does your conscience lead to ? > > > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a > > > > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened over > > a > > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among minorties > > by > > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ which > > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have ever > > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir . > > > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time you > > want > > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though thay > > may be > > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an > > anti > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state > > has > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir . > > > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the > > keyboard. > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > > > post, > > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted out > > to a > > > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual > > that > > > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms of > > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > > takes, > > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people > > > like > > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize > > his > > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence > > against > > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have > > been > > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in being > > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left > > Front > > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military dictatorship > > in > > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis > > of > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea were to > > be > > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be clear > > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules North > > Korea > > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include Iran, > > the > > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > > ruled > > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > > weapons > > > and > > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and > > foreign > > > policy. If the international community was justified in operating a > > set of > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it should > > have > > > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement support > > agency > > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz > > > Sharif. > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > > > foreign > > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides over > > an > > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly Salafist > > brand > > > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its > > rented > > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. > > Its > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > American > > > fighter jets. > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > abominations > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > > > > just > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > would > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and > > in > > > India. > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > Higher > > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive 200 > > > > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most heinous > > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car > > of > > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the woman > > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been revoked > > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee for > > > > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the > > crime > > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.ne > > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 14:11:06 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:11:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <32144e990712010013y1128683aq93a495cc6e12b446@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302343v67ae75bp61afa3f4acb62828@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990712010013y1128683aq93a495cc6e12b446@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712010041i4852ecerbb867d29b3d8804a@mail.gmail.com> And you answer for a peacful solution is general amnesty to all terrorists & mass murderers and those who are responsible for exodus of 700000 relegios minorties in Kashmir . is that what you find a resolution and that too peaceful ! On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > That *is* what I was talking about. > > We can either focus on Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik and other mentioned by > you and insist upon retribution and death... > > Or we can look at trying to achieve peaceful cohabitation in Kashmir, and > then due diligence on all the issues. > > Besides, the killing of Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik, etc., might satisfy > some blood / revenge thirsty people, but I fail to understand how it will > resolve any issue. > > Rgds, Partha > ............................................................ > > > On Dec 1, 2007 1:13 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Partha , > > > > Though I wished to discuss on many points you have expressed , but for a > > moment I just wanted to ask you a simple question > > > > As regards to people like Yasin malik and Bitta karate .....what is your > > idea of peaceful solution ? > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that > > > he's as against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi > > > one. What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / > > > encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the POSCO > > > incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through non-legal > > > punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that the > > > constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's > > > being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the > > > constitution. > > > > > > On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure out > > > the logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down > > > every building place that was once something else and replacing it with > > > whatever it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the > > > North Block and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you > > > agree? > > > > > > In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a > > > building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or add > > > God to that structure. > > > > > > I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very nature > > > of their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, I > > > certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and > > > Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national > > > dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and I > > > saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri > > > Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing > > > except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP > > > fanaticism makes me distrust them. > > > > > > As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has > > > different wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the > > > pain. I hear the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. > > > Do I know the 'ground reality'? > > > > > > No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that > > > conflict has become fragmented with different demands (that have changed > > > over time, different 'truths' and different hates. > > > > > > Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I do > > > like the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and to > > > resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing > > > Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of death. > > > > > > > > > Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that > > > conflict. > > > > > > What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful > > > resolution or retribution? > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > .................... > > > > > > > > > On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current > > > > Saudi > > > > Arabia to the > > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > > abominations > > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would > > > > be just > > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > > > would > > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat > > > > and in > > > > India. > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > > > > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of > > > > you try > > > > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I > > > > wonder > > > > where does your conscience lead to ? > > > > > > > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " > > > > , > > > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the > > > > ground > > > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist > > > > or a > > > > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > > > > figures. > > > > > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened > > > > over a > > > > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among > > > > minorties by > > > > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > > > > > > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ > > > > which > > > > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have > > > > ever > > > > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir > > > > . > > > > > > > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time > > > > you want > > > > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > > > > > > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though > > > > thay may be > > > > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need > > > > an anti > > > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > > > > > > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed > > > > your > > > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > > > > > > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > > > > state has > > > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir > > > > . > > > > > > > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the > > > > keyboard. > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > > > > earlier > > > > > post, > > > > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted > > > > out to a > > > > > > > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be > > > > the > > > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > > > > intellectual that > > > > > > > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms > > > > of > > > > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > > > > takes, > > > > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for > > > > people > > > > > like > > > > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply > > > > criticize his > > > > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence > > > > against > > > > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who > > > > have been > > > > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > > > > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in > > > > being > > > > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left > > > > Front > > > > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military > > > > dictatorship in > > > > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the > > > > aegis of > > > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea > > > > were to be > > > > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be > > > > clear > > > > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules > > > > North Korea > > > > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include > > > > Iran, the > > > > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It > > > > is ruled > > > > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > > > > weapons > > > > > and > > > > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and > > > > foreign > > > > > policy. If the international community was justified in operating > > > > a set of > > > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it > > > > should have > > > > > > > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > > > > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement > > > > support agency > > > > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like > > > > Nawaz > > > > > Sharif. > > > > > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of > > > > British > > > > > foreign > > > > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides > > > > over an > > > > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly > > > > Salafist brand > > > > > > > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and > > > > its rented > > > > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the > > > > world. Its > > > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > > > American > > > > > fighter jets. > > > > > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to > > > > the > > > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > > abominations > > > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I > > > > would be > > > > > just > > > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as > > > > I would > > > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat > > > > and in > > > > > India. > > > > > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > > > > > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > > > Higher > > > > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive > > > > 200 > > > > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most > > > > heinous > > > > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the > > > > car of > > > > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the > > > > woman > > > > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > > > > > > > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi > > > > Arabia's > > > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > > > > > > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > > > revoked > > > > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee > > > > for > > > > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the > > > > crime > > > > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > > > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social > > > > discipline. > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.ne > > > > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919811047132 > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 22:47:03 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 22:47:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> Hello Shudha , NamaskAr.........Hope you dont term me a rightist for using "NamaskAr" word. I could sense from your mail the anger and helplessness you feel . Before you advise me to chill , please apply that to yourself. I still do not understand as to if arguing with me is so insignificant or minor , what motivates you to reply to each of my post even if really doesn't matter . I know somewhere you know the truth as well , and it is an ego in you which keeps you defending yourself and attacking my nationalistic viewpoint. If I write about Pseudo secularists in general , you take it as an insult to yourself . If I talk about hollow intellectualism which some believe in ,you again take it so personally . C'mon .....Chill. I may be referring about someone else as well. Well , about your research about iconoclasm , the less said the better . My knowledge about Kashmir has its roots well before google was invented. And for those who want to make rest of world believe that humans came out of eggs, google would help them write long long stories. About my posts on various subject, i believe Partha may like to confirm it .,....i have at many instances posted an article which I found interesting . And whenever someone replied , i just said that these views were not necessarily mine . I always provide a link to the original. I do not blame you for not understanding these basics......i have learnt it long back.....it may take you few more years. And about your threat of defamation , well I am scared. So should others be in this society of double standards . Where a person defends Hussain but is planning to to encourage people to file a defamation against me. I wonder what others have to say about threat of Shudha. I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write the word Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual again..... But are you one for real ? Pawan On 12/1/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > I am well aware of the ground realities of any situation I choose to write > about. I am sure, that you must be aware by now that I make it my business > > to research anything that I write about on the reader list in some detail. > > I suggest you take a close look at your own levels of awareness of what > you > claim as your own history (I notice, for instance, that there is as yet no > > reply from you or Rashneek to my annotations on the history of iconoclasm > in Kashmir). > > And no, I am neither a member, nor a sympathizer of any "M-L type of > organization". I would urge you not to make public assumptions about the > biographies of individuals you do not know. It's risky, you end up running > the risk of being called either a liar, or being exposed as being very > ignorant. You also run the risk of being accused (rightly, in my opinion) > of defamation if you continue to articulate assumptions of this nature on > any public platform. So, be careful. > > I think that your problem is that you want to put people into neat boxes, > on which you want to put labels that your limited understand can make > snese > of, and then assign you assign to these lablels - roles in the shadow > boxing joust of your own imagination. So, first you decided that you would > corner us by sending us the details of the atrocities of so called > communist regimes, then, when we argued that the atrocities of so called > communist regimes are indefensible, you changed tack. When we argued > strongly against the atrocities of regimes led by communist parties, such > as has happenned in West Bengal, you turned around and defended Buddhadeb > Bhattacharya. > > You tried to invoke Sethusamudran, then, when we said yes, Sethusamudran > was a bad idea, you had no space left to squirm. Then you post some > atrocity in Saudi Arabia, and we say, yes Saudi Arabia is hell, and now, > you have less and less room to maneuver. Really, it must be hard being > you. > > Finally, whenever you have nothing left to say, when your arguments are in > > shambles, when your misrepresentations stand exposed, you invoke and hurl > the term 'intellectual' as a term of abuse. As if the work of evolving a > critical understanding of the world were something to be ashamed of. I see > > no reason to be ashamed of intellectual work, just as I see no reason to > be > ashamed or any other kind of human activity. Can you imagine a situation > where we would go around churlishly accusing each other of being 'pastry > cooks', or 'dancers' or 'acrobats' or 'steelworkers' or 'photo shop > operators' whenever we were faced with the weakness of our own positions > and arguments. It would be absured. It would actually be pathetic. And > when > you cry 'intellectual' you sound just as absurd, just as pathetic, just as > infantile. > > You write, you argue, you try to present your view of the world. > Unfortunately, that makes you an intellectual. Just as what I do makes me > an intellectual. There can be debate about the quality of our arguments, > about how well they stand up to reason, and to the complexities of our > times. There can be arguments about whether or not our intellectual work > is > of any value. But accusing people of being 'intellectuals' per se, is > frankly, neither here, nor there. It is a meaningless statement. > > We all have a lot of things to do in our lives. And believe me, arguing > with you is only a very minor, highly insignificant detail in the rich > tapestry of our days. Regardless, it shall continue to be done, whenever > it > is crucially necessary for it to be done. Take my advice, relax, chill > out, > think about a few things other than what you have made your pet obsession, > and don't jump to the gun all the time. You misfire, badly. And sometimes > the bullets ricochet in your own direction. Or as we might say in football > > parlance "self-goal se bachte raho saathi" ("stay clear of self goals, > friend") > > regards > > Shuddha > > > On 10:42 am 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at > how > > few of you try to link everything and anything communal happening with > > Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead to ? Each time you > > quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or > > a separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > > figures. Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which > > happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread > > discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of > > Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being > > destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non > > of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to > > peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of expression and > > at the same time you want all these liberties to be taken with Hindu > > relegion. Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even > > though thay may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the > > same time you need an anti allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist > > as well. Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have > > closed your thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. Cmon > > ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state has > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in > > Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on > > the keyboard. Pawan Durani > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Pawan, > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > > post, and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment > > meted out to a young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in > > Saudi Arabia. > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual > > that I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms > > of evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > > takes, no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect > > for people like Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to > > sharply criticize his prevaricating apology for the 'Left > > Front' government's violence against its own subjects in West > > Bengal > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have > > been active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's > > military occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all > > in being determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in > > Left Front ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military > > dictatorship in Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs > > under the aegis of the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if > > North Korea were to be discussed on this list, I would be certain > > that there will be clear arguments on this list against the imbecilic > > regime that rules North Korea at the moment. The list can be > > justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the United States, Russia and > > many other countries and states. > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > > ruled by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > > weapons and influence wielded by British and American corporate > > intersts and foreign policy. If the international community was > > justified in operating a set of sanctions against the hated South > > African apartheid regime, it should have no business in cosying up to > > the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, anti-semitic Saudi regime which > > is the favourite retirement support agency of third rate dictators > > like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz Sharif. > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > > foreign policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century > > presides over an imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the > > particularly Salafist brand of Islam that is held out as an ideal by > > the Saudi monarchy and its rented clerics is rightly rejected by the > > majority of Muslims in the world. Its significance lies only in that > > it is backed by petro-dollars and American fighter jets. > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > abominations that need to be fought, and fought till they are > > destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism > > perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the short, sharp end of > > Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. > > > > regards. > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes- > > and > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > > Higher Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to > > > receive 200 lashes and prison while the perpetrators of > > > humanity's most heinous crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car > > > of an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However > > > after the woman had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting > > > herself to be tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on > > > Saudi Arabia's Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her > > > punishment for attempting to influence the judiciary through the > > > media. > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > > revoked and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary > > > committee for challenging the judgment, which only punished the > > > victim of the crime and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists > > > were given a paltry sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.ne t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 23:43:11 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:43:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir - Distortions & Reality Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712011013y8a19efdldbd618fce782065e@mail.gmail.com> Calling the Shankaracharya hill as *koh-i-Sulaiman* and ancient temple thereon as *Takht-i-Sulaiman* is a later day ruse started sometime in the 19th century by some fanatical Muslims of Kashmir to complete the process of Islamisation of the historically known places of Hindu worship in the Valley and also to bury deep for ever the Hindu past of Kashmir. It is in line with the demolition of the then famous Hindu temple of *Maharshi* (Vishnu) and the erection thereon of a structure known now as Jama Masjid, conversion of the *Mahakali Temple* near Fatehkdal, Srinagar into the present * Shah-i-Hamadan* mosque, and the *Ekadasharudra* (Shiva) temple in Khanyar, Srinagar into the Ziarat Dastgir Sahib, not to speak of hundreds of temples throughout the Valley which were earlier destroyed completely or converted into mosques, ziarats and dargahs, during the Muslim rule in Kashmir (14th to 18th century A.D.) Read The Complete Book by clicking below :- http://ikashmir.net/distortionsreality/index.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 11:52:00 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 11:52:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <3136ff0ea4f42814d3db03014e033618@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> <3136ff0ea4f42814d3db03014e033618@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712012222m535b479fv155db50bedc8051@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha , The was actually no need to write such a long long mail and choking the megabytes of bandwidth had you read my mail carefully. I had written : "Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though they may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an anti allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well." Now neither did I write that you are a member or sympathiser of a ML type of a organisation .Your hate for something which doesnt suit your judgement led you to write a boring long snobish mail which was out of place and out of context. Please have some sleep before you reply to me again. As for previous mails , you very well know that you chose an author and a quote that suits your argument , and chose to ignore that doesn't. Some quotes of Kilam's book suited you and you quoted them. At the same time Ms Kauls book did not suit you and you connected it with the book publishers , Utpal Publisher having a nationalistic ideology on Kashmir. Not that I do not know that you are averse to certain type of facts , which was quite evident when you did not even condemn Sanjay Kaks wrong depiction of facts. I have survived the terrorists like Yasin Malik 19 years back. I know them and their background better , and that makes me understand the necessity of Indian Army in Kashmir and I am proud of the sacrifices Indian army has made to protect our land from the evil. Pawan Durani On 12/2/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > Namaskar.Thanks for your prompt reply. > > 1. What motivates me (and others) to engage with you is the mindless > energy > you display in promoting your agenda. The list requires regular detoxes > after your postings, and I find myself taking on part of that task (along > with many others) whenever I think it becomes necessary. But do not > mistake this willingness with the fact that I have nothing better to do. > > 2. Nationalism is an idea with which I have serious philosophical and > ethical problems. It is my conscience, not my ego, that comes between me > and nationalism. My postings (or any other writing) against the military > occupation of Kashmir by the Indian state are not made for the sake of the > comfort of my ego, rather it is done in an effort to contribute to a level > > of awareness I believe that every Indian citizen (and everyone else) > should > have about the ground realities in Kashmir, because the Indian state's > violence in Kashmir is meted out in the name of Indian citizens. I for > one, > refuse to accept this being done in my name. It is simply unacceptable to > me. My refusal stems from ethical grounds, and from my understanding of > the > ethical and discursive responsibilities that l bear as a citizen, and more > > importantly, as a human being. > > 3. I am aware of the fact that your rants against 'pseudo secularism' and > 'hollow intellectualism' usually tend to follow postings where you are > exposed as being shallow. When your arguments fail, you turn to ad hominem > > attacks. This is a well established pattern by now. All we need to do in > order to substantiate this is to follow the patterns in the archive of > this > list with patience. > > 4. I will remind you, that in my four part posting on iconoclasm in > Kashmir,posted on Diwali night, there was not a single 'google citation'. > Every argument was backed by a quote, in most instances, extracts from the > original text in Sanskrit were given. I was reading Rajtarangini, and a > few > other books that were recommended by none other than the venerable > Rashneek > Kher, along with other primary and secondary sources, all of which had > elaborate and precise citation. The history of iconoclasm in Kashmir was > demonstrated as having a much more antique vintage than the advent of > Islam > in the Kashmir valley. And this was demonstrated with quotations from > sources that even you cannot dispute. And no, they were not from google. > > Your 'familiarity' with the history of iconoclasm may predate the > invention > of google, but clearly, you are unable to offer a plausible and detailed > counter-reading based on your 'familiarity'. That kind of 'familiarity', > which insists that you know better simply because of your ethnicity, comes > cheap. It will have no purchase here. Work a little harder than simply > wearing the shabby costume of identity when you try and make an argument, > and you might be taken seriously. If not, you will be exposed repeatedly > as > a very poor intellectual. An intellectual who is not prepared to take the > trouble to substantiate what he says. An intellectual who hides behind the > > mask of identity in order to fire his pathetic salvos in public. > > 5.I am glad that you are scared. You should be. Whenever you, or anyone > else make incorrect statements about people's biographies and their > opinions or ideological affiliations - such as the speculation that - I > belong, as you said to some - "M-L type of organization" on a public list, > you will be held accountable for your statements. I do not confuse action > against defamation and libel with a call for censorship, nor should you, > nor should anyone else. Your invocation of Husain at this juncture is > totally uncalled for, because Husain has not made statements about the > biographies and lives of actual living individuals. I am not an admirer of > Husain's art work. But, I believe that he should have the freedom to > practice his art work unhindered. The court cases against him, which are > all centred around his depictions of Hindu deities, betray the ignorance > of > the litigants about their own tradition more than they do anything else. > Just as your knowledge of the history of Kashmir is nothing more than a > travesty, so too, the depth of the awareness of Hindu culture in those who > litigate against Husain is next to negligible. All of you, badly need an > education, most of all about the things you claim to uphold. > > Further, If the difference between a warning not to indulge in libel or > defamation and the call for censorship is not transparent to you, then I > am > happy to undertake a tutorial for your benefit. However, that might be > very > boring for most other people on this list as they all seem to have a > greater quantum of intelligence than you are able to muster. > > 6. You say - "I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write > > the word Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual again....." > > Let me suspend any appreciation I might otherwise have had of your weak > attempt at ironic, self deprecating humour here. Let me try and take your > statement seriously, at face value. If indeed you were to stop making > baseless statements on this list because of the fact that your arguments > are continuously exposed as being hollow, then this list's policy of being > > an uncensored space will have been vindicated. Let me remind you that I > was > not taking objection at the terms "pseudo secularist" or "hollow > intellectual" . These terms embody your opinions, and you are free to have > > them and to advertise them from every rooftop. Opinions are not facts. > They > represent attitudes to facts. I am concerned here with facts, and your > statements masquerading as facts. I was objecting to your saying that I > was > a member of some "ML type organization". Now either I am, or I am not, a > member of an "ML type organization". I am either a sympathizer or not a > sympathizer of the idoelogy of an "ML type of organization". One of these > > statements is a fact, the other is a lie. I am not. Neither a member, nor > a > sympathizer. You are lying. Saying that someone is a member of something > that they are not a member of, amounts to a lie. And that is why you are > vulnerable to the charge of defamation. > > In the long run, the most effective antidote against the most prejudiced > opinion, the most intense slander and calumny is a series of open and > clear > challenges, which can take place only in a situation where the prejudiced > statement cannot shine in the martyred halo of being 'censored'. > > You have been here, you have had your say, and you have been exposed. If > in > the wake of that, you decide to hold your peace, it only goes to show that > > free speech, and the diligent, vigilant cultivation of criticality, is in > the long run - the most effective measure against the likes of you. I was > certain that this was so, but I am grateful to you for having > demonstrated, > once again, that this is true. > > Your fear is a sensible fear. If you lie, I will be scary. Very scary. Try > and stick to the truth, and to what you know. > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > > > > > On 10:47 pm 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" wrote: > > Hello Shudha , > > > > NamaskAr.........Hope you dont term me a rightist for using > > "NamaskAr" word. > > > > I could sense from your mail the anger and helplessness you feel . > > Before you advise me to chill , please apply that to yourself. > > > > I still do not understand as to if arguing with me is so > > insignificant or minor , what motivates you to reply to each of my > > post even if really doesn't matter . I know somewhere you know the > > truth as well , and it is an ego in you which keeps you defending > > yourself and attacking my nationalistic viewpoint. > > > > If I write about Pseudo secularists in general , you take it as an > > insult to yourself . If I talk about hollow intellectualism which > > some believe in ,you again take it so personally . C'mon .....Chill. > > I may be referring about someone else as well. > > > > Well , about your research about iconoclasm , the less said the > > better . My knowledge about Kashmir has its roots well before google > > was invented. And for those who want to make rest of world believe > > that humans came out of eggs, google would help them write long long > > stories. > > > > About my posts on various subject, i believe Partha may like to > > confirm it .,....i have at many instances posted an article which I > > found interesting . And whenever someone replied , i just said that > > these views were not necessarily mine . I always provide a link to > > the original. I do not blame you for not understanding these > > basics......i have learnt it long back.....it may take you few more > > years. > > > > And about your threat of defamation , well I am scared. So should > > others be in this society of double standards . Where a person > > defends Hussain but is planning to to encourage people to file a > > defamation against me. > > > > I wonder what others have to say about threat of Shudha. > > > > I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write the word > > Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual again..... > > > > But are you one for real ? > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 12/1/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > I am well aware of the ground realities of any situation I choose > > > to write about. I am sure, that you must be aware by now that I > > > make it my business > > > to research anything that I write about on the reader list in some > > > detail. > > > I suggest you take a close look at your own levels of awareness of > > > what you > > > claim as your own history (I notice, for instance, that there is > > > as yet no > > > reply from you or Rashneek to my annotations on the history of > > > iconoclasm in Kashmir). > > > > > > And no, I am neither a member, nor a sympathizer of any "M-L type > > > of organization". I would urge you not to make public assumptions > > > about the biographies of individuals you do not know. It's risky, > > > you end up running the risk of being called either a liar, or > > > being exposed as being very ignorant. You also run the risk of > > > being accused (rightly, in my opinion) of defamation if you > > > continue to articulate assumptions of this nature on any public > > > platform. So, be careful. > > > I think that your problem is that you want to put people into neat > > > boxes, on which you want to put labels that your limited > > > understand can make snese > > > of, and then assign you assign to these lablels - roles in the > > > shadow boxing joust of your own imagination. So, first you decided > > > that you would corner us by sending us the details of the > > > atrocities of so called communist regimes, then, when we argued > > > that the atrocities of so called communist regimes are > > > indefensible, you changed tack. When we argued strongly against > > > the atrocities of regimes led by communist parties, such as has > > > happenned in West Bengal, you turned around and defended Buddhadeb > > > Bhattacharya. > > > You tried to invoke Sethusamudran, then, when we said yes, > > > Sethusamudran was a bad idea, you had no space left to squirm. > > > Then you post some atrocity in Saudi Arabia, and we say, yes Saudi > > > Arabia is hell, and now, you have less and less room to maneuver. > > > Really, it must be hard being you. > > > > > > Finally, whenever you have nothing left to say, when your > > > arguments are in > > > shambles, when your misrepresentations stand exposed, you invoke > > > and hurl the term 'intellectual' as a term of abuse. As if the > > > work of evolving a critical understanding of the world were > > > something to be ashamed of. I see > > > no reason to be ashamed of intellectual work, just as I see no > > > reason to be > > > ashamed or any other kind of human activity. Can you imagine a > > > situation where we would go around churlishly accusing each other > > > of being 'pastry cooks', or 'dancers' or 'acrobats' or > > > 'steelworkers' or 'photo shop operators' whenever we were faced > > > with the weakness of our own positions and arguments. It would be > > > absured. It would actually be pathetic. And when > > > you cry 'intellectual' you sound just as absurd, just as pathetic, > > > just as infantile. > > > > > > You write, you argue, you try to present your view of the world. > > > Unfortunately, that makes you an intellectual. Just as what I do > > > makes me an intellectual. There can be debate about the quality of > > > our arguments, about how well they stand up to reason, and to the > > > complexities of our times. There can be arguments about whether or > > > not our intellectual work is > > > of any value. But accusing people of being 'intellectuals' per se, > > > is frankly, neither here, nor there. It is a meaningless statement. > > > > > > We all have a lot of things to do in our lives. And believe me, > > > arguing with you is only a very minor, highly insignificant detail > > > in the rich tapestry of our days. Regardless, it shall continue to > > > be done, whenever it > > > is crucially necessary for it to be done. Take my advice, relax, > > > chill out, > > > think about a few things other than what you have made your pet > > > obsession, and don't jump to the gun all the time. You misfire, > > > badly. And sometimes the bullets ricochet in your own direction. > > > Or as we might say in football > > > parlance "self-goal se bachte raho saathi" ("stay clear of self > > > goals, friend") > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > On 10:42 am 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and > > > looking at how > > > > few of you try to link everything and anything communal > > > > happening with Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead > > > > to ? Each time you quote " Indian States Military > > > > Occupation In Kashmir " , without knowing the ground > > > > reality talk of your ignorance of the ground reality . You would > > > > be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a separatist > > > > organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which > > > > happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread > > > > discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of > > > > Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being > > > > destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same > > time non of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken > > > > down to peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of > > > > expression and at the same time you want all these liberties to > > > > be taken with Hindu relegion. Each time you talk of secular > > > > parties which you love even though thay may be aligned with a ML > > > > type of organisation and at the same time you need an anti > > > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. Each time > > > > you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > > > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. Cmon > > > > ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > > state has "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti > > > > people in Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than > > > > typing few words on the keyboard. Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > > > > earlier post, and as is evident from your posting of the brutal > > > > treatment meted out to a young woman who has been the victim of > > > > gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be > > > > the partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > > > > intellectual that I find interesting it the one who has no > > > > problem at all in terms of evolving an engaged critique of > > > > oppression, no matter what form it takes, no matter where it > > > > occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people like Noam > > > > Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize > > > > his prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' > > > > government's violence against its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who > > > > have been active on this list in arguing against the Indian > > > > state's military occupation of the Kashmir valley have had > > > > no problems at all in being determined in our opposition to > > > > oppression when it occurs in Left Front ruled West Bengal, in > > > > the current conditions of military dictatorship in Burma and > > > > Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis of > > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea > > > > were to be discussed on this list, I would be certain that there > > > > will be clear arguments on this list against the imbecilic > > > > regime that rules North Korea at the moment. The list can be > > > > justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the United States, Russia > > > > and many other countries and states. > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. > > > > It is ruled by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in > > > > place by money, weapons and influence wielded by British and > > > > American corporate intersts and foreign policy. If the > > > > international community was justified in operating a set of > > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it > > > > should have no business in cosying up to the sexist, > > > > slave-owning, xenophobic, anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the > > > > favourite retirement support agency of third rate dictators like > > > > Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz Sharif. > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of > > > > British foreign policy in the middle east in the early twentieth > > > > century presides over an imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, > > > > and the particularly Salafist brand of Islam that is held out as > > > > an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its rented clerics is rightly > > > > rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. Its > > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > > > American fighter jets. > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia > > > > to the venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different > > > > kinds of abominations that need to be fought, and fought till > > > > they are destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist > > > > Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the > > > > short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. > > > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < > > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-l > > ashes- > > > > and > > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi > > > > > Arabia's Higher Judicial Council has actually sentenced a > > > > > rape victim to receive 200 lashes and prison while the > > > > > perpetrators of humanity's most heinous crime were > > > > > allowed to walk free. > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men > > > > > was originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling > > > > > in the car of an 'unrelated male' at the time of the > > > > > rape. However after the woman had the temerity of not > > > > > unquestioningly submitting herself to be tortured as > > > > > punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has > > > > > been banned from carrying her case further. His license has > > > > > been revoked and he has been called to appear before a > > > > > disciplinary committee for challenging the judgment, which > > > > > only punished the victim of the crime and not its > > > > > perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry sentence > > > > > of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage > > > > > heinous crimes against them in the name of maintaining social > > > > > discipline. _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.ne t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader- > > list/ > > > > > > > From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Dec 2 23:48:08 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 23:48:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy on Taslima Nasreen and Nandigram: Interview on IBNlive.com with Karan Thapar Message-ID: <6d314634a912081012988f8882fc055e@sarai.net> Dear All, (Apologies for Cross Posting on Reader List and Kafila.org) As we have been discussing both Nandigram and the situation that Taslima Nasreen has found herself over the last few weeks, I thought that it might be interesting to listen in on a conversation that Karan Thapar has had with the writer Arundhati Roy that takes on both these questions. This interview was broadcast earlier today on CNN-IBN. I found the transcript on the IBNlive.com website regards Shuddha ------------------------------------------ Transcript of Arundhati Roy interviewed on the treatment of Taslima Nasreen by Karan Thapar on 'Devil's Advocate', broadcast this evening on CNN-IBN The transcript was published on Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at 20:32, on the CNN IBN website http://www.ibnlive.com/news/if-treated-like-taslima-id-give-up-writing/53464-3-single.html To watch the video of the interview - see - http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/53464/12_2007/devils_arundathi1/if-treated-like-taslima-id-give-up-writing.html --------------------------------------------- Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate. How do India’s leading authors respond to the treatment given to Taslima Nasreen over the last 14 days? That’s the key issue I shall explore today with Booker Prize- winning novelist Arundhati Roy. Karan Thapar: Arundhati Roy, let me start with that question. How do you respond to the way Taslima Nasreen has been treated for almost 14 days now? Arundhati Roy: Well, it is actually almost 14 years but right now it is only 14 days and I respond with dismay but not surprise because I see it as a part of a larger script where everybody is saying their lines and exchanging parts. Karan Thapar: She, I believe, has been in touch with you . What has she told you about the experience that she has been through? Arundhati Roy:Well I have to say that I was devastated listening to what she said because here’s this woman in exile and all alone. Since August she’s been under pressure, she says, from the West Bengal police who visit her everyday saying, “Get out of here. Go to Kerala, go to Europe or go to Rajasthan. Do anything but get out of here. People are trying to kill you,” not offering to protect her but saying get out. On 15th November when there was this huge march in Calcutta against Nandigram, they said, “Now you’re going to be killed so we’re going to move you from your flat to some other place” and they did it but they withdrew most of her security which is paradoxical because on the day when she was supposedly the most under the threat, she had no protection. A few days later they gave her a ticket and pushed her out of the state. Karan Thapar: Listening to the story she told you about herself, do you believe that the West Bengal government’s behaviour has been unacceptable? Arundhati Roy: Well it has been utterly, ridiculously unacceptable. I mean, what can I say? Here you have a situation where you’re really threatening and coercing a person. Karan Thapar: Far from protecting her, they were threatening her? Arundhati Roy: Absolutely. Karan Thapar: What about Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee? He is a poet, he is an author; how does he emerge from this story? Arundhati Roy: He emerges from the story, as far as I am concerned, as the principal scriptwriter who managed quite cleverly to shift all the attention from Nandigram to Taslima and Taslima is not the person who is displacing the poor peasants of Nandigram. She is not the person who is robbing people of their daily. Karan Thapar: So he used her as a pawn to take the pressure off himself in terms of Nandigram? Arundhati Roy: I think very successfully because we are discussing her and not Nandigram right now. Karan Thapar: So he’s failed to stand by any of the constitutional duties that as a Chief Minister he should have upheld? Arundhati Roy: I should say at this point that we do not have the constitutional right to free speech. We have many caveats between us and free speech so maybe he has upheld the constitutional rights to us not having free speech. Karan Thapar: On Friday, Taslima announced that three pages from her autobiography Dwikhandito, which allegedly had given offence to critics, are to be withdrawn. Do you see that as a sensible compromise or a mistake? Arundhati Roy: Well, neither. She does not have any choices. She is just like a person who has now got the protection of the mafia which is the state in some way. She has nowhere to go. She has no protection. She just has to blunder her way through this kind of humiliation and I really feel for her. Karan Thapar: You used an interesting phrase. You said she has to blunder her way through this humiliation. Was withdrawing those three pages, admittedly under pressure, a blunder? Arundhati Roy: I don’t know. Honestly, we can all be very brave in the security of our lives but she has nobody to turn to and nowhere to go. I don’t know what I would have done in that situation. Karan Thapar: She had no other choice, perhaps. Arundhati Roy:She really is in a mess. I think it is a reflection on all of us. Karan Thapar: Let’s come to the issues and the principle that underlie what I call the Taslima Nasreen story. To begin with, do you view freedom of speech as an absolute freedom, without any limitations or would you accept that there are certain specific constraints that we all have to accept? Arundhati Roy: It is a complicated question and has been debated often. I personally, do view it as something that should have no caveats for this simple reason that in a place where there are so many contending beliefs, so many conflicting things, only the powerful will then decide what those caveats should be and those caveats will always be used by the powerful. Karan Thapar: So you’re saying that given the fact that many people are vulnerable, freedom of speech for them should have no caveats, it should be absolute and that’s their only protection? Arundhati Roy: I think so because if you look at the facts, you have outfits like VHP or the Bajrang Dal or the CD that the BJP produced during the UP elections, you see that they do what they want to do. The powerful always do what they want to do. It is the powerless and the vulnerable that need free speech. Karan Thapar: Let’s explore the position that you’re taking – free speech is an absolute freedom and there should be no limitations on it. What about the view that by criticising Islam, Taslima has offended beliefs which for tens of millions of Indians, maybe for hundreds of millions are sacred? These are beliefs that underlie their dignity and their sense of identity. Should freedom of speech extend that far as to threaten people’s sense of themselves? Arundhati Roy: I don’t believe that a write like Taslima Nasreen can undermine the dignity of ten million people. Who is she? She is not a scholar of Islam. She does not even claim that Islam is her subject. She might have said extremely stupid things about Islam. I have no problem with the quotations that I have heard from her book. Dwikhandito has not been translated into English but let’s just assume that what she said was stupid and insulting to Islam but you have to be prepared to be insulted by something that insignificant. Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you some of the things that she said, not from Dwikhandito, but from an interview she gave to Anthony McIntyre, The Blanket in 2006. She says, “It’s not true that Islam is good for humanity. It’s not at all good. Islam completely denies human rights.” Elsewhere she talks about what she calls the venomous snake of Islam. To me that sounds as if it goes perhaps beyond a simple critique and into deliberate provocation. Arundhati Roy: It sounds like Donald Rumsfeld or some Christian fundamentalist. Karan Thapar: And you would rile at him so why not rile at her? Arundhati Roy: Yeah, but I wouldn’t say ban him or kill him. I would say what a ridiculous person. What a ridiculous thing. How can you start reacting to everything like that? We have an infinite number of stupidities in the world. How can you start having your foundations rocked by every half-wit? Karan Thapar: Let’s put it like this, does freedom of speech necessarily include the right to offend? Arundhati Roy: Obviously it includes the right to offend otherwise it wouldn’t be the freedom of speech. Karan Thapar: But is that an acceptable right in India? Arundhati Roy: One person’s offence is another person’s freedom. Karan Thapar: That maybe so in England and America where Western levels of education have allowed people to hear something offensive without reacting violently. In India, where the education levels are so disparate, where religion is so emotionally and passionately held, then if you have the freedom of speech merging into the right to offend, you end up provoking people often to violence, sometimes to death. Arundhati Roy: First of all, I think we have to understand that education is a very loaded term because modernity is what is creating some of this kind of radical fundamentalism. And it’s not like traditional India anymore. In fact, if you look at any studies that have been done, actually communal riots have increased. Karan Thapar: Aren’t you evading my point? You’re questioning what is meant by modernity and education but you and I know that the levels of sophistication in terms of being able to handle offence to your religion or criticism of your God vary hugely. Arundhati Roy: What I am saying is that level of sophistication is far better in rural areas than urban areas. Karan Thapar: You mean that rural Indians are better able to take criticism of Ram or Allah? Arundhati Roy: If you look at the kind of riots in rural and urban areas, you’ll see that, historically. Karan Thapar: Let me give you a specific example. If criticism of Islam by Taslima Nasreen leads to a situation where people come out and riot on the streets and there is a real genuine threat that innocent people could end up killed, what in that circumstance should be the government’s priority — to defend freedom of speech or prevent the loss of human lives? Arundhati Roy: I don’t think that’s a choice. I think they have to protect freedom of speech and do everything that they can to prevent the loss of human life because here what is happening is that this kind of right to offend or ‘my sentiments have been hurt’ have become a business in democratic politics. Let’s say the political parties are engineering these situations which lead to a loss of life otherwise why should it be that Dwikhandito has been on the bestseller list for four years in West Bengal and nothing has happened and suddenly when there’s a massive march and a massive mobilisation against the CPM, the book suddenly reappears as insulting people’s faith? Karan Thapar: So you’re saying mischief makers, manipulators whipped up sentiments four or five years after the book was published, to deliberately try and corner Taslima and to create an atmosphere that perhaps worked in some peculiar way to the advantage of the West Bengal government? Arundhati Roy: Look at who’s benefiting from it. All the anger about Nandigram has now suddenly turned to us asking the same state that criminally killed people in Nandigram to now protect Taslima Nasreen. Karan Thapar: Are you trying to suggest that perhaps that the West Bengal government was in some way involved in engineering this incident to deflect attention from Nandigram to Taslima? Arundhati Roy: I would say that it would have had a lot to do with it and I am saying that it is so easy to do these things. Karan Thapar: When the situation happened, it would have perhaps been judged as Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee’s dilemma. Perhaps as a poet and author he felt a need to defend or desire to protect the freedom of speech. As a Chief Minister, undoubtedly he knew that he had the duty to stop and prevent the loss of human life. If therefore, by putting pressure on Taslima Nasreen to leave the state for a while, he was able to save ten or fifteen lives that would have otherwise been lost on the streets of Calcutta, did he not do the right thing? Arundhati Roy: No, I don’t think so. I think that’s the game that they would like us to play. ‘I did it in order to defend innocent lives.’ But I think there’s a deeper script in the understanding of what is known as the deep state. I think that this was a provocation that actually could have ended up creating a loss of lives because, I want to go back to it, why should it be that for four years that book was on the market and no lives were lost. Everything is in the timing. Karan Thapar: So you really do believe, when you use phrases like the deep state that there was a conspiracy, even though we don’t fully understand it, to deflect attention from Nandigram to Taslima and to perhaps put her in a position where under pressure she was forced to leave and the government didn’t actually have to physically throw her out? Arundhati Roy: I wouldn’t use the word conspiracy because that sounds like an intelligence operation and I don’t think that something like this needs to go as far as a conspiracy but I would certainly say that you need to examine the timing of this because that’s all we are ever left in India. No one ever gets to the bottom of anything. It is always like, who benefits, why did this happen now. I would like to know, why it happened now. Karan Thapar: So you’re saying something that’s pretty fundamental. You’re saying that far more simple —as you did at the beginning— that the West Bengal government behaved unacceptably. Now you’re saying that there was almost Machiavellian intent, not a conspiracy but a Machiavellian intent behind the way they have played this game out? Arundhati Roy: You are making it sound like I have a very deep insight. Karan Thapar: No, you have a deep distrust and a huge suspicion. Arundhati Roy: That’s true but I also know that this is the word on the street. You don’t need a rocket scientist to figure this out. It is something that we have seen happening over and over again. It is nothing new or amazing that’s happening. Karan Thapar: Let’s turn to the Central Government’s response to Taslima Nasreen. Speaking in parliament on Wednesday, Pranab Mukherjee said that India would continue extend protection and sanctuary to Taslima Nasreen and then he added that it is also expected that guests will refrain from activities and expressions that may hurt the sentiments of our people. How do you respond to that? Arundhati Roy: It is like being sentenced to good behaviour for the rest of your life which is a death sentence for a writer. If I had to live somewhere in those conditions, I would become a yoga instructor or something. I would give up writing because this is such a nasty thing to do. Here is a woman who is a Bengali writer. She can’t function outside. It’s a question of principle anyway. It is not about her, it is about us. What kind of society are we creating? Sure it’s tough to take the kind of things she said about Islam but she should be put in her place, intellectually and otherwise. Not like this where she will become a martyr to somebody else. Karan Thapar: When Pranab Mukherjee says that it is expected that guests will refrain from activities and expressions that may hurt the sentiments of our people, is he in a very real sense giving Muslim fundamentalists a veto, both over what Taslima can write and say and therefore whether she can stay in Calcutta? Arundhati Roy:Who does he mean when he says ‘our people’? Am I included for example? Because by saying this he certainly hurt my sentiments. You can’t really match people’s sentiments. Karan Thapar: You are quite right. ‘Our people’ includes the whole range of people but I suspect that when he says our people he had those who we were protesting against Taslima on the streets of Calcutta in mind. Has he, therefore, given them a veto over what she can write and say, and therefore a veto over whether she can continue to live in Calcutta? Arundhati Roy:It is not her. He has taken a veto over all of us. I mean I have also been told by the Supreme Court that you will behave yourself and you will write how we ask you to write. I will not. I hope that is extended to everybody here. Karan Thapar: Given that Taslima’s case is not a unique case, you’ve suffered as you said at the hands of the Supreme Court, M F Hussain has suffered, art students in Baroda have suffered, even people doing cartoons and satires of Gandhi on YouTube have suffered, are we an intolerant people? Arundhati Roy: We’re just messy people. Either we have the principle of free speech or you have caveats that will fill up this whole room and we will all just be silenced. There will be no art, there will be no music and there will be no cinema. Karan Thapar: Are you moving in that direction where caveats to free speech are becoming so many that there is no freedom to be artistic? Arundhati Roy: What I am saying here does not matter. I might believe in this but I know that tomorrow I have to deal with the thugs of the government, courts of the fundamentalist and everybody else. In order to live here you have to think that you are living in the midst of a gang war. So what I believe in or don’t believe in is only theoretical. However, how I practice is a separate matter. How I survive here is like surviving amongst thugs. Karan Thapar: But then the corollary to what you’re saying is very important. You’re saying that artists, particularly those who see things differently, particularly those who are stretching out and wanting to be new and avant-garde, have to contend with the thugs, as you call them, with the government and the majority that’s trying to push them back. Arundhati Roy: We do and we will. The thing is that I also don’t expect to be mollycoddled. I know that we have a fight on our hands and how do we survive in this gang war. The state is just another gang, as far as I am concerned. Karan Thapar: So you’re saying that it is not easy to be different in India? Arundhati Roy:Well, it’s challenging and we accept that challenge. Karan Thapar: What’s your advice to Taslima Nasreen? Arundhati Roy: I really don’t have any advice. I feel very bad for her because, let me say this, her’s is actually the tragedy of displacement. Once, she has been displaced from her home. She has no rights. She is a guest and she is being treated very badly. She is being humiliated. Karan Thapar: Arundhati Roy, it was a pleasure talking to you on Devil’s Advocate. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 00:08:53 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 00:38:53 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] French Embassy says Bangladeshi concerns are "objectionable & insulting" Message-ID: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ The following reference documents/links have been added to the Guimet blog entry: 1. Fact-Finding Committee Report: Pg 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 2. Protesters Battle Police As Musee Guimet Trucks Roll Out 3. Shahidul Alam: Price of Priceless Objects 4. Shahidul Alam: Missing Jigsaw Pieces 5. Letter To The French Government & Citizens 6. Anisur Rahman: Collected Media Reports 7. French Embassy:Bangladeshi Protesters are "Misleading the public again!" 8. French Ambassador: Protesters concerns are "objectionable and insulting" 9. Kwame Opoku: Musee Guimet holds "thousands of stolen objects" 10. Afrikanet: France & The Stolen Art Of Others 11. Major Robberies At French Museums 12. Louvre refuses Turkish demand for Ottoman Tiles 13. Declaration on the Importance and Value of Universal Museums 14. "Complete" documentation as per French Embassy, with missing Accession Numbers: 1, 2 15. Contract Between Culture Ministry & French Ambassador From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Mon Dec 3 03:32:46 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 14:02:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy on Taslima Nasreen and Nandigram: Interview on IBNlive.com with Karan Thapar In-Reply-To: <6d314634a912081012988f8882fc055e@sarai.net> Message-ID: <489001.44584.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> As much as I am an admirer of A Roy's wit and intelligence and her stance on various issues;I don't agree with her stance on this particular one,that is,if one can call it one. 1. I wonder why people try to argue away the offense felt by someone with statements like "its too great a religion and should not be bothered by something so inconsequential" ,which is very subjective.If someone gets shot by a gun,do you treat the wound or try to argue it away somehow,that oh you shouldn't feel the pain it shouldn't really hurt etc.? A non physical offense felt by a person is as real as a physical one. You can say that you have got to put up with it;but saying that you shouldn't actually have felt it in the first place;is just plain silly and condescending. 2.I have said this before and I want to repeat it. We should not shy away from making the distinction between genuine critique and downright provocation,politically correct reductionism not withstanding. Its not that difficult.When you read or come across something,you can easily make it out.The printing of Mohammed cartoons repeatedly was provocation,not a genuine critique.Some of the language used by Taslima falls in the same category,as Karan Thapar has rightly pointed out. 3.I think that the "unwashed masses",rural or urban,feel that the media and the intelligentsia have an "up yours" attitude towards them and I dont blame them for it.If some people in the media would have come out and called Taslima, Hussain etc for bad taste;the unwashed masses would probably not have wanted to get them banned etc They probably feel that they do not have a voice in media,which is what shapes the thoughts and minds and thats why they try to take matters into their own hands. regards Rahul --- shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > Dear All, > > (Apologies for Cross Posting on Reader List and > Kafila.org) > > As we have been discussing both Nandigram and the > situation that Taslima > Nasreen has found herself over the last few weeks, I > thought that it might > be interesting to listen in on a conversation that > Karan Thapar has had > with the writer Arundhati Roy that takes on both > these questions. This > interview was broadcast earlier today on CNN-IBN. I > found the transcript on > the IBNlive.com website > > regards > > Shuddha > > ------------------------------------------ > > Transcript of Arundhati Roy interviewed on the > treatment of Taslima Nasreen > by Karan Thapar on 'Devil's Advocate', broadcast > this evening on CNN-IBN > > The transcript was published on Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at > 20:32, on the CNN IBN > website > http://www.ibnlive.com/news/if-treated-like-taslima-id-give-up-writing/53464-3-single.html > > To watch the video of the interview - see - > http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/53464/12_2007/devils_arundathi1/if-treated-like-taslima-id-give-up-writing.html > > --------------------------------------------- > > Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate. How do > India’s leading authors > respond to the treatment given to Taslima Nasreen > over the last 14 days? > That’s the key issue I shall explore today with > Booker Prize- winning > novelist Arundhati Roy. > > Karan Thapar: Arundhati Roy, let me start with that > question. How do you > respond to the way Taslima Nasreen has been treated > for almost 14 days now? > > Arundhati Roy: Well, it is actually almost 14 years > but right now it is > only 14 days and I respond with dismay but not > surprise because I see it as > a part of a larger script where everybody is saying > their lines and > exchanging parts. > > Karan Thapar: She, I believe, has been in touch with > you . What has she > told you about the experience that she has been > through? > > Arundhati Roy:Well I have to say that I was > devastated listening to what > she said because here’s this woman in exile and > all alone. Since August > she’s been under pressure, she says, from the West > Bengal police who > visit her everyday saying, “Get out of here. Go to > Kerala, go to Europe > or go to Rajasthan. Do anything but get out of here. > People are trying to > kill you,” not offering to protect her but saying > get out. On 15th > November when there was this huge march in Calcutta > against Nandigram, they > said, “Now you’re going to be killed so we’re > going to move you from > your flat to some other place” and they did it but > they withdrew most of > her security which is paradoxical because on the day > when she was > supposedly the most under the threat, she had no > protection. A few days > later they gave her a ticket and pushed her out of > the state. > > Karan Thapar: Listening to the story she told you > about herself, do you > believe that the West Bengal government’s > behaviour has been unacceptable? > > Arundhati Roy: Well it has been utterly, > ridiculously unacceptable. I mean, > what can I say? Here you have a situation where > you’re really threatening > and coercing a person. > > Karan Thapar: Far from protecting her, they were > threatening her? > > Arundhati Roy: Absolutely. > > Karan Thapar: What about Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee? He > is a poet, he is an > author; how does he emerge from this story? > > Arundhati Roy: He emerges from the story, as far as > I am concerned, as the > principal scriptwriter who managed quite cleverly to > shift all the > attention from Nandigram to Taslima and Taslima is > not the person who is > displacing the poor peasants of Nandigram. She is > not the person who is > robbing people of their daily. > > Karan Thapar: So he used her as a pawn to take the > pressure off himself in > terms of Nandigram? > > Arundhati Roy: I think very successfully because we > are discussing her and > not Nandigram right now. > > Karan Thapar: So he’s failed to stand by any of > the constitutional duties > that as a Chief Minister he should have upheld? > > Arundhati Roy: I should say at this point that we do > not have the > constitutional right to free speech. We have many > caveats between us and > free speech so maybe he has upheld the > constitutional rights to us not > having free speech. > > Karan Thapar: On Friday, Taslima announced that > three pages from her > autobiography Dwikhandito, which allegedly had given > offence to critics, > are to be withdrawn. Do you see that as a sensible > compromise or a mistake? > > Arundhati Roy: Well, neither. She does not have any > choices. She is just > like a person who has now got the protection of the > mafia which is the > state in some way. She has nowhere to go. She has no > protection. She just > has to blunder her way through this kind of > humiliation and I really feel > for her. > > Karan Thapar: You used an interesting phrase. You > said she has to blunder > her way through this humiliation. Was withdrawing > those three pages, > admittedly under pressure, a blunder? > > Arundhati Roy: I don’t know. Honestly, we can all > be very brave in the > security of our lives but she has nobody to turn to > and nowhere to go. I > don’t know what I would have done in that > situation. > > Karan Thapar: She had no other choice, perhaps. > > Arundhati Roy:She really is in a mess. I think it is > a reflection on all of > us. > > Karan Thapar: Let’s come to the issues and the > principle that underlie > what I call the Taslima Nasreen story. To begin > with, do you view freedom > of speech as an absolute freedom, without any > limitations or would you > accept that there are certain specific constraints > that we all have to > accept? > > Arundhati Roy: It is a complicated question and has > been debated often. I > personally, do view it as something that should have > no caveats for this > simple reason that in a place where there are so > many contending beliefs, > so many conflicting things, only the powerful will > then decide what those > caveats should be and those caveats will always be > used by the powerful. > > Karan Thapar: So you’re saying that given the fact > that many people are > vulnerable, freedom of speech for them should have > no caveats, it should be > absolute and that’s their only protection? > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 04:33:34 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 18:03:34 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] "Final" Interim Report on Citizens' Visit to Nandigram In-Reply-To: <556b1d6b0712010957y1a463168pd19fbc262f8d5b7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <556b1d6b0711301153x1899c04bvde0351d7917ac6ae@mail.gmail.com> <556b1d6b0712010957y1a463168pd19fbc262f8d5b7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <475339C6.6020705@gmail.com> Sujata and Samantak, Was this question asked on the list? If so, I seem to have missed it. Tapas Sujata & Samantak wrote: > Dear All, > As mentioned in my earlier post, here's the "Final" Interim Report. > > One member of this list asked, "Was it interim report, where all the > balancing acts were incomplete, so have to be given finishing touches by the > spin doctors of media?" From arshad.mcrc at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 10:34:27 2007 From: arshad.mcrc at gmail.com (arshad amanullah) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:34:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Second National Workshop of Muslim NGO's Message-ID: <2076f31d0712022104v90aade1nff207f2cc146c9f3@mail.gmail.com> The Second National Workshop of Muslim NGO's (working in the field of Education, Child Care, Women Empowerment, Social Development, Health Sector and Rural Development) is going to be held in New Delhi from 4-6th January 2008. It is expected that around 300 or so Muslim NGO's would participate in the workshop. The Workshop would be second in the series after first ever attempt to organise Muslim NGOs the First National Workshop of Muslim NGO's was held in December 2006. It should be mentioned that 325 delegates from 19 States had attended the workshop. A number of Central Ministers and Government officials beside a good number of experts and representatives of foreign Muslim funding Agencies addressed the gathering. MOEMIN general secretary and National Integration Council member Naved Hamid says that this was the first time that a large number of Muslim NGOs from different parts of the country gathered to discuss the development of the community at large. All the Muslim NGO's interested to attend the Workshop can contact Mr. Navaid Hamid, General Secretary, MOEMIN for registration and inquiries on : 011 23923786 / 23261369/ 09811643929 or moemin.navaid at gmail.com. Arshad Amanullah From logos.theword at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 10:52:04 2007 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:52:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] In A Nameless Place In-Reply-To: <33bc2ee60712020933w5c3b9a48p8f76bd909f5d8888@mail.gmail.com> References: <33bc2ee60712020933w5c3b9a48p8f76bd909f5d8888@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60712022122o5d688daduc9e07e512663c99a@mail.gmail.com> This is a work in progress. Arka Mukhopadhyay I These things will remain - The echo of birdwings, The stories that the wind Whispered into the ears of the grass, And the bloodstains on the water - These shall not pass. II In Moscow it is snowing But winter here comes with a blizzard of wrath Cold as a steel tube Wending its way up a uterus III C'est la lutte finale Groupons-nous, et demain L'Internationale Sera le genre humain Clench your fists and arise, The drumbeat of your feet shall wipe the past clean - We shall destroy it whole, down to its roots And over the landscape of history that we will write, A blood-red sun will rise. IV nous sommes Le grand parti des travailleurs We are The great party of workers, The earth belongs only to us. And you, women, You who bear the earth's memories in your breasts - When our victorious army marches Over the map of your body, There shall be no shelter beneath withered trees, No trail of retrun over the scorched ground. -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is 't to leave betimes? Let be. From anansi1 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 3 11:46:40 2007 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 01:16:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lawrence Lessig, Dj Spooky: Creative Commons 5th Anniversary Message-ID: <29290466.1196662601443.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hello you all - as many of the people on this list might know, I'm an artist whose work posits digital media as an extension of many issues that face contemporary art and aesthetics, and in that context, I'd like to extend an invitation to those from the list who live in San Francisco to come check out the Creative Commons 5th Anniversary. Every aspect of the event will be open source. And yes folks - it's contemporary art. in peace, Paul aka DJ Spooky Date: December 15th Time: 10pm-2am Venue: Terra Gallery 511 Harrison st San Francisco CA 94105 web info: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/birthday_party "CC is turning 5 and to celebrate we’re throwing a community-wide party. If you’ll be in the San Francisco Bay Area on December 15, join us for a night of celebrating the commons at a party generously sponsored by Mozilla and Last.fm. The evening will feature announcements by Joi Ito and Lawrence Lessig, a live acoustic performance by Gilberto Gil, video remixing by Phi Phenomenon, and open source, remixable music and video provided by Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky. Space is limited so please RSVP to party at creativecommons.org as soon as possible to let us know if you will be joining us (seriously, please do this!). Details are listed on our birthday flyer. If you’re not in the Bay Area, don’t worry. There will also be parties in Berlin and New York City. For more details about these events, or if you want to register a party in your own part of the world, check out our wiki page for more information. Air Mozilla will be streaming Gilberto Gil’s performance for those who won’t be able to attend any of the parties. And of course, please feel free to celebrate CC in Second Life as well. No matter where you are in the world, we invite you to celebrate CC’s five years of helping to keep culture free and celebrate the future of participatory culture." via Cory Doctorow From whitenoise24 at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 11:25:12 2007 From: whitenoise24 at gmail.com (sridevi panikkar) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 11:25:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Protest Orissa Govt and POSCO's ruthless volence against people (Delhi demo) Message-ID: Dear friends and comrades, Delhi Solidarity Group, National Forum of Forest People and Forest Workers, Campaign for Survival and Dignity, National Alliance of People's Movements (Delhi), join the KSG in protesting this ruthless violence against the people by Orissa Govt and POSCO company... we strongly condemn this undemocratic suppression of a peaceful people's movement for protection of their rights and resources. Kindly join the Tuesday demonstration at Delhi's Orissa Niwas at Chanakyapuri at 10.30 am (onwards) and thereafter for a press conference at the Press Club at Raisina Marg at 1.30 pm - where some comrades from Jagatsingpur, Orissa will also talk about the extent of violence unleashed by Orissa Govt and POSCO goonds on people. for Delhi Solidarity Group *Protest against the violent repression of POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti in Orissa * *Join in huge numbers on Tuesday* ** Please join in condemning the brutal and heinous attack on the peaceful protest of POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti at Jagatsingpur in Orissa on Thursday the 29 th. At least 17 people were injured when supporters of a local MLA, armed with lethal weapons and crude bombs attacked the members of anti-POSCO group near the proposed site for the steel plant. The attackers threw about 6 bombs at the agitators; many were critically injured. The police and the district administration intervened only after the clashes took place. Friends, at the moment, around 16 platoons of police force have cordoned off village Dhinkia where at least 1000 villagers are trapped. The violence wreaked on the people is completely state sponsored to take over the areas that are the strongest base of the POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti at Jagatsingpur. The situation right now is volatile and further state violence seems inevitable. It is not a clash of pro and anti POSCO people as the media and the Orissa government are claiming --- it is a desperate bid to pave the way for the South Korean corporate giant POSCO by using state force. Support the struggling people opposing the POSCO project by joining us in the dharana. Assemble around 10.45 on the road outside the Orissa Nivas. We will present a memorandum to the Resident Commissioner that will be signed by all organizations present. Do forward this mail and tell as many people to come with banners, songs, slogans and join the protest. *Time: 11 am* *Venue: Orissa Nivas, Bordoloi Marg, Chanakyapuri* *Date: Tuesday the 4th of Dec.* ** *In solidarity,* ** D Manjit and Nagraj Adve On behalf of Kashipur Solidarity Group and Others From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 17:35:52 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:35:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ViBGYOR 2008 : Call for Entries: Submission Deadline Extended Message-ID: <4753F120.1050705@gmail.com> The Deadline for Film Submission is Extended to December 25th , 2007. Submit your Films as early as possible ==Call For Entries== 2008 February 13-17, Thrissur, Kerala, India Have you or your friends made any Documentary or Short Fiction or Music Video or Animation or Spot films recently? Then this is a Wonderful Opportunity for You We at the ViBGYOR Film Collective, invite your films to the 3rd edition of the ViBGYOR Short and Documentary Film Festival, to be held from February 13th- 17th, 2008 in Thrissur, Kerala, India. ViBGYOR is a meeting place for filmmakers, social activists and media students, a dedicated place for films on social and environmental issues, and a campaign space for people's movements. Films can be submitted under the following categories. There is no Entry Fee for the Non-Competitive categories. All films entered in all categories will go through a Pre-selection round. The Last Date for submission is December 25, 2007 (Extended) (post marked) 1.ViBGYOR Theme Packages Gender and Sexuality Dalit Reality Indigenous People Fundamentalism v/s Diversity Globalisation Nation State Region Focus – Eastern India 2. Focus of the Year: ENERGY 3. Music Videos, Animation, Experimentals (Micro films, Mobilephone films etc) 4. Competition Section : KERALA SPECTRUM (restricted to residents of Kerala) In the Competition Section, filmmakers residing in Kerala can submit their films, both documentary and short fiction. The documentaries should have themes dealing with Kerala society, life and culture. Short fiction does not have thematic specification. Only films made after January 1, 2006 are eligible for participating in the competition. There is an entry fee of Rs.500/-. The Demand Draft should be send favouring ViBGYOR Film Collective payable at Thrissur. Join in the Official ViBGYOR egroup for your questions related to the Event http://groups.google.com/group/vibgyorfest Entry Form Can be Downloaded From here Rules & Regulations for ViBGYOR 08 is available at http://2008.vibgyorfilm.com/rulesandregulations For more information contact 9447000830/9446529991/0487-2330830 Email: vibgyorfilmfest at gmail.com Website of ViBGYOR 2008: http://www.vibgyorfilm.com Two DVD copies of your films along with the Entry Form, Film stills and Director's photograph should be sent to: ViBGYOR Festival office Chetana Media Institute 3rd Floor, Kalliath Royal Square, Palace Road Thrissur, Kerala, India – 680 020 -- Anivar Aravind For ViBGYOR Collective From vivek at sarai.net Mon Dec 3 13:28:55 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:28:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] General Audience Highlights and Programme for tomorrpw, Tuesday 4 December -- Independent Fellows Workshop Message-ID: <4753B73F.10501@sarai.net> Hi all, Not with the intention to overkill, but I thought you might find it more manageable to get a day-by-day programme. If anybody would like to blog reports on the sessions (and give a link to the reader list) or indeed, write in to this list with comments and questions, that would be very helpful. Critical engagement appreciated! Also, please note that the events from 4-7 December are not at CSDS but in the centre of town, the LTG Auditorium at Mandi House. But first-- highlights of tomorrow that would be good for a general audience: 1. *Curated Multimedia Exhibition* 10.00 am – 8.00 pm Tuesday 4 December – Friday 7 December) (Upstairs) This curated journey gathers together a wide and various range of audio-visual and print material from Sarai’s archives, collected and produced by Independent Fellows. It features photographic work, graphic panels, audio and visual loops, short films, etc., from research areas as diverse as Jazz in Bollywood, glass negatives from early cinema, signage in the Indian city, digital imaging in photo studios, street musicians, video theaters, and much much more… 2. *Special Panel: The Past of Research and the Present of Practice* 4.30—6.30 pm (Main auditorium) Featuring: TP Sabitha, Yousuf Saeed, Mahmood Farooqui and Rahaab Allana Discussant: Shuddhabrata Sengupta How might a detailed study of the past, dredging and building archives, serve not just to make museums, but invigorate and change our sense of the present, feed directly into practice? The panelists, who are all former Sarai-CSDS Independent Fellows, are all people whose research has engaged deeply with the archive, with documents and images from the past. At the same time, as performers, writers, photographers, and filmmakers they are also people who work with and produce highly contemporary forms. TP Sabitha (sabitha_tp @yahoo.co.uk) is a writer who writes in both Malayalam and English, as well as a teacher and researcher of literature and art. Yousuf Saeed (ysaeed7 @yahoo.com) is a filmmaker and writer in Urdu and English. He is currently associated with a new archival initiative for visual culture, TasveerGhar. Mahmood Farooqui (mahmood @sarai.net) is a historian and performance artist. He works with the Independent Fellowship programme and with the translation and editing of Hindi publications at Sarai. Rahaab Allana (rahaab @acparchives.com) currently works as a curator for the Alkazi Foundation for Photography. Shuddhabrata Sengupta (shuddha @sarai.net) is a writer, columnist and media practitioner with training in sociology and filmmaking. He is one of the co-initiators of Sarai, one of the editors of the Sarai Reader series and a member of the Raqs Media Collective. He has contributed numerous scholarly and popular articles in newspapers, magazines, journals, anthologies and books on a range of themes. He coordinates the distributed research network at Sarai. AND THE REST OF TUESDAY'S PROGRAMME BELOW... Thanks Vivek ***************************************************** Tuesday 4 December Venue: LTG Auditorium, Mandi House 10.30 – 12.00 History Versus Reminiscence Chair: Debjani Sengupta [Debjani Sengupta (debjanisgupta @yahoo.com) is an ex independent fellow and teaches English Literature at Indraprastha College, Delhi University. She is the editor of Mapmaking: Partition Stories from two Bengals, and has translated Taslima Nasreen’s Selected Columns. Most recently, she co-edited and wrote Working Questions , the Sarai Independent Fellowship book.] Anuja Ghosalkar Papa Ajoba: My Grandfather, the Film Make Up Artist The project chronicles the life of my grandfather, who was a make up artist in the Hindi film industry from 1941 to 2000: from his early years at Raj Kamal studio with V. Shantaram (when they literally made their own make-up) to his 17 years spent at the Filmistan studio. There is a sharper focus on the 1960’s - when he predominantly worked with Shammi Kapoor, Asha Parekh, Sadhana & Saira Banu. It also documents film history from the point of view of a technician who might lacquer it with his own stories. It is finally, a tribute to a grandfather who narrated stories of his everyday life, not knowing that stories often become history. The research is primarily through interviews. The presentation will be in an audio-visual form with a written essay. Anuja Ghosalkar (anu.ghosalkar @gmail.com) is a lecturer and researcher in film and has been involved with an experimental theatre group in Mumbai for over half a decade. She is currently working with Breakthrough – a globally active human rights organization. Her project blog can be found at: http://www.papaajoba.blogspot.com/ Renee C. Lulam and Julius L. Basaiawmoit Changing Faces of Democratic Spaces in Urban Cosmopolitan Shillong Understanding personal events as profoundly social allows a broader perception of human interactions that have shaped the past and continue into the present. As the research progresses and we meet more people sharing their versions of ‘cosmopolitan’, we find that the backdrop we initially placed the research against has often proven inadequate and therefore challenging. In one of the testimonies, Shillong has been called an ‘artifact of British administration….artificial…’ The place and people are variously known to have been tolerant, narrow, short sighted, confused, but most of all, absorbent. Our intention through this research is to explore the different ways Shillong considers ‘cosmopolitan’. We were fortunate that in the course of our research, an event like the Indian Idol contest took place, evoking an almost ‘patriotic’ fervour over the finalist from Shillong. Many have quoted it as an example of how Shillong has progressed in cosmopolitan tolerance, though much of it was driven by emotion and tended towards the superficial and reactionary, in the observation of some others. Through excerpts of audio interviews, video clips, newspaper or journal articles, photographs, city soundscapes, and an interpretative paper, we will attempt to present a picture of the changing faces of Shillong vis-à-vis the term ‘cosmopolitan’. Julius Basaiawmoit (lemiwell @hotmail.com) specializes in sound for film and television. Renee Lulam (renee75 @gmail.com) works with independent research based projects. Both are from Shillong. Sugata Nandi Eventful Adolescence, Memorable Youth: The Politics of Personal Reminiscence in Calcutta, 1947-1967 Personal reminisces of the adolescents and youths of the 1950s and 1960s in Kolkata, of specific incidents listed above will be gathered through interviews with them. The oral data thus gathered will constitute the primary source for constructing a collage of remembered experiences. The project will treat the same as texts authored by individuals who endeavour to locate and to interpret through the emotional performance of remembering what may be termed as significant episodes in the recent history of the city. The project, on completion of research, will be given the shape of a academic history paper. At the moment I have fixed the target of writing the paper in about 15 thousand words, which might have to be increased if required. As of now I have planned to record (in audio cassettes) the interviews that will constitute the archival text for the work, if resources permit then I would try to make audio-visual record of the interviews. Sugata Nandi (largestriver @hotmail.com) is Lecturer in History, Krishnagar Government College, West Bengal 12.15 – 1.15 Proving Residence Chair: Shveta Sarda [Shveta Sarda (shveta @sarai.net) is a content editor and translator with Sarai. She works in Cybermohalla as a process chronicler and edits the labs' content for diverse circulation – books, website, blogs, broadsheets, and wall magazines. At present she is working with the various research projects at the CM mobile lab. She was part of the editorial collective of the broadsheet series Sarai.txt.] Ajit K. Dwivedi Sealing ke Nazar Mein: Sealing Banam Pusta ka Visthapan (Media Study: Comparative Reporting on Land Ceilings and Displacement from Jamuna Pushta) Ajit K. Dwivedi (dajeet @gmail.com) is a career journalist. He just left Dainik Bhaskar to join ITV News as Associate Editor. Bipul K. Pandey The Residence Proof Bipul Pandey (bipulpandey @gmail.com) worked in print media for nine years. He currently works with Star News as Associate Producer. 1.30 pm – 2.30 pm Sub-metropolitan Dreams Chair: Iram Ghufran [Iram Ghufran (iram @sarai.net) is trained as a media practitioner and works as video/ audio editor in Sarai Media Lab. She has co-researched the work culture of call centres, and is part of the editorial collective of the broadsheet series Sarai.txt. She works on various multimedia, video and audio works produced at Sarai.] Nalin Narain Mathur B-Grade Engineering College Culture Being subjected with the experience of studying at an engineering college, I happened to witness the living experiences, aspirations and values that make an 'engineer' beyond all the techy stuff he learns in the classroom. Add to it the different background and identity of students and the acute realization that "This – is- not – IIT", which more often then not looms large in everyone's conscience. Hence, engineering colleges constitute of interesting and fantastical cultural dynamics wherein a mix of identities, cultures and aspirations are played out in non-metropolitan spaces to get an amalgamation of different worlds in one campus. Through this project I aim to study the phase of social and emotional renaissance which unavoidably crops up during one's stay away from his natural locale. Nalin Narain Mathur (nalin.mathur @gmail.com) works as a systems analyst. He has a Bachelor’s Degree in Mechanical Engineering from Uttar Pradesh Technical University, Lucknow. Syed Zaigham Imam Sapno ke Rail (The Train of Dreams: Narratives from the Allahabad-Jaunpur Passenger Train): a short documentary film If faster trains denote speed and arrival, slower trains can sometimes nurture dreams that compress a lifetime into a few hours. Zaigham’s project is to study how students, literally, arrive at Allahabad. The passenger trains, so called because they stop at even the smallest of stations connecting Allahabad (the educational headquarters of Northern India) to Jaunpur and Faizabad, two towns in the hinterland and encompassing other smaller towns such as Pratapgarh, Mau and Aimma. Sixty percent of the people travelling in these trains are students on their way to Allahabad. Not so much to enroll at the university but to join one of the innumerable coaching centres and to prepare for the Central and Provincial Civil Services Exams. In the seventies and eighties, students from Allahabad dominated the civil service selections, not only at the centre, but also in states such as UP, Bihar, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh. The sons mainly of farmers, who travelled out of the smaller qasbas chasing a dream, even came to be known as ‘collectors.’ What does the inside of these trains look like? Zaigham travels up and down the ravaged trains with missing bulbs, fans and fittings and investigates peculiarities like ACP, a short form for alarm chain pulling. People use it to stop the train at convenient points, an illegal practice that is stoically accepted by the authorities, and most travel ticket-less. The towns and stations falling on the way represent the rise and fall of the qasbas of UP, like Mau Aimma which is an important production centre for crackers. The story of these trains is also a metaphor for the democratisation of higher education that took place in the last three decades of the twentieth century. Through interviews with passengers and train officials, and unsuccessful attempts to get information through the Right to Information Act, Zaigham builds a picture of slow development and the aspiration for a government job that is primary, on the poor students all over India. Trained as a journalist, Zaigham Imam (zaighamimam @rediffmail.com) also writes fiction and is currently trying his hand at filmmaking. He left Amar Ujala recently to work with BAG films. The project is blogged at: http://www.merirail.blogspot.com/ 2.45 – 4.15 Hearing Spaces, Seeing Spaces Chair: Aarti Sethi [Aarti Sethi (aarti.sethi @gmail.com) previously worked with the Sarai Programme; currently she is pursuing her M.Phil in Film Studies at the School of Arts and Aesthetics, JNU.] Shahnawaz Khan Entertainment Ghosts in Srinagar: A Tale of Cinema Halls in the City This study aims to analyse the impact of the closure of cinema halls in Srinagar after the outbreak of armed insurgency in early nineties. Most of the closed cinema halls are occupied by paramilitary troopers and have even functioned as torture centres in the nineties. Some others have changed business. Only one is functional, but not in good condition. Shahnawaz talks to people associated with the trade, cine goers who have been to these halls when they functioned, and the youth today who do not find a place to go for a movie in the city. The study also looks at the psychological impact of these structures in the city, which stand witness to the times they have gone through. Shahnawaz Khan (fsrnkashmir @gmail.com) is a journalist based in Srinagar, associated with the US based Free Speech Radio News. Along with some friends he launched Kashmirnewz.com in 2006. Zubin Pastakia A Photographic Study of Bombay’s Cinema Halls The project seeks to photographically examine the cultural experience of different types of cinema halls in Bombay city. In part, this is a meditation on different urban spaces. More importantly, this is an attempt to illustrate the subjective nature of the film-going experience. From the designer shop - to cinema hall - to chain restaurant mall/multiplex experience, to the still-standing single-screen bastions of the art-deco era, to the musty largely male-dominated "c-grade" halls, the photographs will evoke the unique experience of these different spaces. The intention is to eventually produce a monograph on Bombay's cinema halls as well as to exhibit the photographs publicly. Zubin Pastakia (zubinpastakia @gmail.com) is a photographer and filmmaker living in Bombay. He blogs his photos at: http://peripheralvision.blogspot.com/ Sayandeb Mukherjee Corridors: An Exploration of Sound and Space This project delves into the emotional and acoustic contours of corridors. This contemporary architectural design which may appear simple structurally possesses a complicated and sometimes convoluted auditory space due to reflective and diffractive properties of sound. The project attempts to enlighten the variability of these acoustic qualities/characterestics of corridors integrated in different urban spaces. The process of research includes a vivid physical involvement and exploration in the corridor like spaces, taking notes in a descriptive way in the spot itself, acquiring photographs and live recordings of the acoustic environments at different spots of the same space. The recording process may also involve time stamps (i.e. recordings of the same space over the different parts of a day) for the analysis of the soundscape in a particular space. The process also includes the collection of films, texts or any other form of art, where one can notice a conscious application of such corridor-like spaces. Sayandeb Mukherjee (sayandebmukherjee @yahoo.co.in) is a graduate of the Satyajit Ray Film and Television Institute in Kolkata who now works as a professional sound recordist in Ramoji Film City, Hyderabad. 4.30—6.30 pm Special Panel: The Past of Research and the Present of Practice Featuring: TP Sabitha, Yousuf Saeed, Mahmood Farooqui and Rahaab Allana Discussant: Shuddhabrata Sengupta 7.00—7.30 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Performance Art: “This Evening Too: From Lal Ded to Abdul Ahad Zargar” by Inder Salim: Space limited to 25 persons only—first come, first serve. Inder Salim (indersalim @gmail.com), an Independent Fellow this year, is a performance artist based in Delhi. He blogs his work at: http://indersalim.livejournal.com/ From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 19:13:43 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:43:43 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Lala Rukh Selim on Musee Guimet Message-ID: Link to this op-ed is at: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ Why risk invaluable heritage for vague 'cultural benefits'? By Lala Rukh Selim Dated 29.11.2007 In response to the French, Embassy's reply entitled "Int'l show will bring cultural benefits to Bangladesh" (published in The Daily Star of 27 November 2007) to the statement of four citizens, we would again take this opportunity to voice our confusion as to what exactly are the 'cultural benefits' that are being alluded to? We as Bangladeshis are very secure of the cultural heritage that we have. We are proud of it as it reflects a past of assimilation, integration and syncretism. Any person in the world may learn of our culture spanning thousands of years from many sources and are always welcome to visit our land to study our culture. Why should an exhibition in France benefit Bangladesh, especially an exhibition where the priceless treasures of our country have been selected without involving Bangladeshi experts, where the cataloguing is inaccurate and unprofessional, where the insurance is laughable? Such an exhibition may benefit the French, but how it will benefit Bangladesh is not conceivable. We may have been able to consider the tangible benefits if the French government had agreed to send Bangladesh an exchange exhibition of its own priceless treasures. As there is no mention of any such exchange exhibition, the vague 'benefits' only succeeds in baffling us. It makes us very curious as to why the French Government is so keen on the exhibition when we have learnt from reliable sources that the Expert Committee constituted by the Ministry of Cultural Affairs of Bangladesh has noted various points of serious concern regarding it. This has made the exhibition considerably controversial and much debated. Firstly, the citizens of Bangladesh were completely in the dark while the French and Bangladeshi governments were planning, organizing and implementing various stages of activities relating to the exhibition for nearly past four years. The people whose patrimony is to be transported to a foreign country were not informed of this impending fact. There was no media coverage, which would ensure the transparency of an event of such immense cultural magnitude. Would the Monalisa leave the Louvre without the people of France knowing of it? Gradually, with constant prodding and litigation from citizens from various levels of society it came to light that there are gaping holes in the contract that has been signed between the two nations. Perhaps most horrifying and barbaric is the fact that even the exact number of artifacts packed to leave for France is unknown while some pieces lack identification, they do not have the counter signature of the concerned authorities or a listing of the museum accession numbers in the contract. The visual documentation is faulty and incomplete. The identification and documentation of the objects are obscure, inadequate and, in some cases, absent. The list of items have been wavering between 168 to 189 which may have been acceptable for a consignment of eggs or apples (though that too is questionable!) but for a priceless collection of artifacts this is unheard of. For example, the total number of coins is stated, but no details supplied as to their dating, material and description. The two invaluable Pala palm leaf manuscripts which are awaiting transport are so fragile that the number of pages cannot be counted. In view of the enormous value of these items, it looks like sheer lunacy to subject them to travel. Let it suffice to say that even a single sheet is enough to represent the refined achievement of that period. More horrors were revealed when it came to be known that the Musee Guimet was given permission to restore the artifacts prior to the exhibition in the Guimet laboratory. These artifacts were mostly taken from display cases so the need for restoration does not seem to be relevant and the ones that need restoration should not travel at all. It is learnt that the Expert Committee is of the opinion that they should not be allowed to be restored after they leave the territory of Bangladesh because the contract is flawed by bad documentation and a very low insurance value. Who will know if pages of the Prajnaparamita manuscript or a Maurya coin is missing if we do not know what and how many is going in the first place? What if some of them are missing when and if they are returned? What if they are damaged in transport or the transport destroyed? The "what ifs" are cause for deep anxiety for all concerned citizens of Bangladesh. What is also causing more dismay is the rather paternal and colonial psyche expressed by the French when they repeatedly remind Bangladeshis about the 'cultural benefits' to Bangladesh. Are the Bangladeshis less able to understand and judge what is good for themselves than the French? Do we need the patronizing attitude of the French who pretend to know better what is good for us? Bangladesh has a glowing history. It has not colonized any nation. Imperialism is not part of its past. It has always assimilated and embraced the cultural influences that have entered from the outside world. It has only resorted to violence when faced with oppression and exploitation. It has stood up against the colonial power of the British, the Language Movement took place when its culture was challenged and the Liberation War against Pakistan was again a fight against oppression and colonialism. If anything, Bangladesh has a wonderful cultural image, which can in no way be bettered by any exhibition anywhere in the world. If the French government is bent on wresting our heritage from us by sheer force, let it be known that it will prove once more that history repeats itself and morals and ethics, law and justice plays into the hands of those who possess power. The French government is going against all codes of ethical conduct when they disregard our opinions and the laws of our land. We, the people of Bangladesh protest and will protest against this outrage and misuse of power. We want proper documentation, we want the due involvement of the professionals of our country and we want the just insurance value of our artifacts. Let it also be clear that the artifacts in question are the creation of the cumulative genius of our ancestors, creations inspired by the spirit and soul of our people, not the whim of nature, as are the mineral or natural resources of our country. We, the people of Bangladesh, demand respect and justice for our cultural heritage and we will not rest or hold our peace in the face of force. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 00:11:23 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 00:41:23 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Musee Guimet & The Candy Man Message-ID: Shahidul Alam's report on today's Bangladesh government press conference to address Musee Guimet protesters concern is below and also linked here: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ Also, courtesy of Shahidul, I have updated the documentation examples Lack of documentation a) set of coins catalogued as "coins", with no specifics b) inconsistent numbers ("50 silver coins, and 8 gold coins" at Dec 3 Bangladesh government press conference, "50 punchmarked coins" in one set of court records, "gold and silver coins" in another record, "93 punch marked coins" in the French inventory) b) missing accession numbers (no accession number for large and extremely rare bronze statue the Vajrasattva, insured at 200,000 Euro) c) mismatch between number of pieces documented by the French photographer who catalogued the show, the number given in French embassy contract, and the number in Embassy's press release d) incomplete descriptions, missing descriptions e) insurance value of 4 million Euros, for a collection that dates back to 4th century BC. An international archaeological expert has since called this appraisal "financial fraud". f) insurance value of 4 million Euro as per French press release of 25th September, 2.6 million Euro as per Dec 3 Bangladesh government press conference g) no response to protesters demand for name of artefact packer ##################### The Candy Man Shahidul Alam He was charming, witty, and took blame upon himself. Adviser Ayub Quadri, was the Minister of Education, Minister of Primary and Mass Education and Minister of Cultural Affairs, Government of the People's Republic of Bangladesh. He was the perfect guy to rely upon for damage control. The public school background showed, as did the many years as a top bureaucrat. He had been a member of the elite Civil Service of Pakistan (CSP). An old boys network that still holds clout in the subcontinent. The Press Information Department (PID) auditorium on the 3rd floor of Building 9, in the Bangladesh Secretariat was packed. Unlike many other Bangladeshi events it started on time. Squeezing through the footpaths, crossing fences, lifting my bicycle over rickshaws stuck in traffic, I had panted my way to the secretariat. The police at gate 2 had been too perplexed by a bicycle going through the gate to even stop me for papers. I arrived just as the first question was raised. It was a packed hall, and while I thought I would stay at the back, I realised that I needed to get up there to stand any chance of getting a question in. I sat on the floor in between the video tripods. The journalists had done their homework. And while there were a few questions that were repetitive, by and large, they knew what they wanted. In response to a question about the alleged corruption charges against one of the government officials involved in the transaction, the adviser joked. "Well I am the person in overall charge. The police don't seem to be after me for corruption." Pretty answer. Pity it didn't answer the question. The large table with the adviser in the middle was imposing. The Secretary of Culture on the left and another officer on the right played a largely ornamental role. So did the entire row of officials in the back. They did however lean forward to whisper in the adviser's ear from time to time. The question came up of the alleged transportation of the bronze casket in 1959 to France, which Mr. Zakaria, the ex Secretary of Culture had mentioned in a press conference on the 1st December. The adviser let the question slip, saying he'd heard of such accusations and was looking into it. A member of the back row broke ranks and retorted, "There is no such record." Mr. Zakaria, also an ex director of the department of archaeology, had mentioned a 49 year fight to get back this prized possession, without success. A journalist mentioned the case of the 30 paintings of Mohammad Younus. They had been sent to Yugoslavia, on a government to government exchange. None had ever come back. Quadri again said he didn't know. "Don't know" was quite a common response to questions. Candid perhaps, but not particularly useful. In answer to the questions about the irregularities regarding the loan inventory, the adviser did provide figures, but no documents he could back them up with. Questions from the floor pointed to the disjoint between the figures he quoted and the ones given in the government documents submitted to the court. That they didn't correspond to the inventory produced by the French themselves. He promised to provide updated documents this very evening. Tomorrow morning at the latest. Why the government had provided documents to the court which did not tally with the shipment, was a question that never got asked, and was certainly not clarified. Neither was the mystery regarding calling a press conference, but not having these documents at hand ever solved by the guests. "I have full confidence that the items will come back." He said, taking the weight of the world on his shoulders. As to why Bangladeshis should have confidence in him, was one that was never clarified. "The company that had packed the crates have been doing so for 300 years," he mentioned. The doubters have been asking for the packers to be named ever since the beginning, but have not been given an answer. Those who had thought the press conference would enlighten them were disappointed. Since only government members of the committee were present, there was no one to question the claim that everything had done to please the committee. That the committee had been fully satisfied with the proceedings. The fact that the official letter by the committee, in the hands of the press, said something entirely different was a mere technicality. The problem was the inconsistencies. We still don't know exactly how many items are being sent. Neither do we know exactly what is being sent. The few specifics the advisor provided, that there were "50 silver coins, and 8 gold coins," might have helped in purchasing supplies for an Everest expedition, but didn't help much in evaluating either the value, or the specifics of a museum item. Especially when the court record states "50 punchmarked coins" in one entry and an unspecified number of "gold and silver coins" in another. Assuming the number of silver coins in the latter entry is non-zero, and that the punchmarked coins are all silver, we still have a problem. The French inventory specifies "93 punch marked coins." Are the "gold and silver coins" non-punchmarked? Do they add up to the "8 gold coins" the adviser was referring to? 50 + non-zero number = 50 and 50 + 8 = 93 in Ayub Quadri's arithmetic. There are bigger issues. He generally accepted that the insurance value was low, but claimed that it was an academic issue in the case of priceless items. Especially since he was confident that they were all coming back. However the French press release, issued on the 25th September 2007, stated that the insurance value was 4 million euro. The adviser today clearly stated 2.6 million euro. So who are we to believe? We are after all talking of the most prized possessions of a nation. Consistent statements help remove doubt. The adviser's "confidence" might work on a poker table, but does little to put a worried population at ease. He brushed off the accusation about whisking off the items in a hurry, or that there was any question of impropriety or stealth in terms of going against court directives. When asked why such an important event, which was covered by all major independent media, was completely unreported on state television, he smiled. The gentleman on the right did speak up this time. He pointed out that the question was "irrelevant." Other questions remain. In the documents presented to the court by the government, even one of the most valued items, the large (and extremely rare) bronze statue the Vajrasattva does include an insurance value (not always the case) of 200,000 euro. The item does not have an accession number. Quadri was unruffled throughout, never losing cool. Always extremely pleasant. His only admission to some concern was in answer to a question about when the items would come back. He said in no uncertain terms, "April." He added, "Until then, I will stay worried, and looking at the mood in the room, I can tell that you too will not rest." As a child, we would watch the candy floss man take a tiny spoonful of sugar, a dollop of colouring and would watch with amazement as the machine spun out a pink web, which he would twirl around a stick. One portion was only dui poisha (two paisa). A figure which we could realistically save up. The large pink fluff, folded on contact, and melted in the mouth, but did give a sense of attainment. We called it hawai mithai, sweet made of air. This candy floss press conference too, had little substance but plenty of form. Whether the media kids will feel they got value for their dui poisha is something we'll see in tomorrow's headlines. ——— Previous governments have killed farmers when they demanded fertilisers and seeds. Villagers have been killed when they had the audacity to demand electricity, resist open pit mining. Yesterday 14 cyclone affected people were detained for trying to present a memorandum in protest of irregularities in relief efforts. We wonder what demands for saving our heritage will bring. From mrsg at vsnl.com Tue Dec 4 00:33:34 2007 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:33:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 5th posting for SARAI fellowship project Heritage Ponds of kolkata Message-ID: <006501c835df$997219b0$0201a8c0@MRAY> 5th Posting: for SARAI fellowship project Heritage Ponds of kolkata We are now almost at the end of our journey to search the heritage ponds of Kolkata. The journey as we mentioned before was through the literatures, journals, memoirs, conversation with people and then simply walking through the streets of the city. The journey was not pleasant always, as you stand in front of a pond with a history of three hundred years, you find a dirty pool where reflection of the sky is censored by the weeds and floating plastics. But they are there. People are using them, bathing, washing, fishing, and spending times around them. They are history in continuation. Ponds (pukur) are there inside the heart of Kolkata. And our walk took us to so many land areas all named after ponds(pukurs). So you walk on the road called Ahiripukur. The 'pukur', the waterbody is long gone but it has stamped its marks on the land. So you roam in the lanes of Manoharpukur without seeing any waterfowl. In Kolkata you have the places named Bosepukur, Thakurpukur, Paddapukur, Talpukur, Keorapukur, Hanspukur, Shyampukur, Muraripukur, Jorapukur, Jhamapukur, Beniapukur and more. A recent road directory of Kolkata Municipal Corporation listed 61 roads in Kolkata named after the waterbodies. Apart from being called a pukur, they can be variously called 'Jheel', 'Jala', and 'Dighi'. There are two Jheel Roads, one in the southern fringe of the city at Jadavpur, the other at the northern end at Kashipur and also Motijhil Road. There are roads named 'Seven Tanks Lane', 'Karbala Tank Lane', Tiljala Road, Basak Dighi Lane etc. But the authorities running the city do not have any care for such evidence of a contemporary history, for them, these old heritage ponds are merely dirty waterbodies. So they go on changing the names with impunity. Sometimes, from pukurs to some local personalities, the local history is wiped in the process and dumped in some reference book. Till now there has been 29 changes in the names of these roads, changes that have come to our notice. Basak Dighi Lane is now Kedarnath Banerjee Lane or Beniapukur Road is now Ramnath Pal Road. With time, Kokata is losing the ponds as well as their role as markers of the surrounding lands. The report will contain the detailed names and lists of all these roads. Our attempts in documenting these heritage ponds have been multifold. First, after the site visit, the pictures of these ponds have been taken. The salient features of the ponds have been recorded like the temples or some memorials etc by their side. A route map for the waterbody has been prepared so that anyone willing to visit the site can reach the spot easily. Also it is being attempted to take satellite photograph of each pond from the Google's map along with the latitude-longitude of the site. With each pond there will be a history sheet to record its heritage status. Also the present status of the ponds would also be recorded. All these records have been noted with proper references. We have till today listed 43 ponds which can be considered as the heritage ponds. A brief introduction of some of those would give an idea about the claim to heritage of these waterbodies. The story of the heritage ponds of Kolkata can start with those waterbodies which were excavated before any idea of Kolkata was ever thought of. That list should start with 'Sen Dighi'. This large waterbody is situated at the extreme southeast margin of the city. This is the oldest waterbody though the exact age of it remains to be researched. The title 'Sen' comes from the Sen dynasty of Bengal which ruled the region through the 11th and 12th century. The Sens are considered last Hindu rulers of Bengal after which the region was conquered by the Muslim invaders. The village where the waterbody is situated is called Boral which is also a very old village of south Bengal. There is the famous Tripur Sundari temple close to the waterbody. This temple is considered as one of the 'peetha' and as holy as renowned Kalighat temple in Kolkata. During recent excavations for renovations and additional construction of the temple, many old artefacts of Maurya period to Sen period have been recovered. Some of these articles are kept at Asutosh Museum in Kolkata and some at the local museum within the temple complex. Hindu temples generally have waterbodies adjacent to them to fulfill different religious rituals and ritual bathing etc. So this waterbody is also linked with the history of this temple considered to be established during Sen period. The next old waterbody which also exists for several hundred years is "Ray Dighi". It is located at the southwest margin of the city at he place called Sarsuna. Sarsuna area was once a part of a developed region ruled by the 'Roy' rulers. Raja Prapaditya Roy, one of the famous Twelve Chieftains (Baro Bhuiya) of Bengal who fought against mighty Mughal emperor Akbar to ensure local independence, came from this family. Pratapaditya ultimately was defeated by the Mughal army and died in 1598 in captivity of Mughals. His father Bikramaditya Roy and uncle Basanta Roy were the rulers of this region. Basanta Roy set up his headquarters at Sarsuna and named it Raygarh. He excavated the large waterbody known as 'Roy Dighi'. This nearly 500-year-old waterbody still exists though now reduced to a much smaller size. The waterbody at Tollygunge in southern Kolkata called "Pagla Pirer Pukur" (waterbody of the Eccentric Muslim Saint) is also more than 350 years old. The 'mazar' of Hazarat Muksud Gazi lies at one corner of the pond. The sufi saint was known as 'Pagla Pir' who died in the year of 1690. The waterbody is mired in many myths, even the folk lore says it was created by the wish of the Pir. The water of this pond was sacred to all and no local festivals, marriage would be complete without the use of this holy water. Same year when the Pir died, the English merchant Job Charnolk set up his small office near today's Binoy-Badal-Dinesh Bag by the side of another waterbody named 'Lal Dighi', literally means 'Red Lake'. The lake and its surroundings was later named as Dalhousie Square and now known as Binoy-Badal-Dinesh Bag. This waterbody was the property of the family of Sabarna Roy Chowdhury, the owner of the village of Kalikata, Sutanuti and Govindapur. These three villages were taken on lease on 1698 by Job Charnok's son-in-law in 1698 which is considered as the beginning of the making of the city of Calcutta, now Kolkata. This 'Lal Dighi' still retains its prime position as the central place of the city. These are the waterbodies which records the history of the new city in building. 'Lal Dighi' has seen the battle between Siraj-ud-Daullah in 1756 when the local king drove away the British from Kalikata. A year later, after the battle of Plassey (Palashi), the British returned triumphantly to start the building of this new city. Mohit Ray From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Dec 3 12:59:09 2007 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:29:09 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudijudges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <"d0 5b3e6c17efe60c1b45cc6856f9b311"@sarai.net> <"6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be2 34c62a232d8"@mail.gmail.com> <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, it is a sensible reply to intolerent individual in the society where intolerence has peaked to be nonsensical.With the type of judiciary we have in free India where it takes months to adjudicate any issue, the scare of defamation suit is even more insulting addition to mental injury as the long winding process of law is more a mockery of process of justice. And as to investigation of the police, be it state or central investigation agencies such as CBI, it is a joke to laugh at. CBI has a modus operandi where it gathers all evidence and then for considerations of power, politicians positions, and riches dilutes the evidence against the culprits, and throws the weakest into the ring for wolves in prosecution to feast on as the society enjoys the drama of prosecution like the fight of gladiators. As the rich Moninder singh with political connections and riches gets away, his servant is cut to size in the guise of justice delivery. As uncle Q gets all the kickbacks of bofors , his niece rules the nation for more kickbacks thanks to our "investigators" in CBI who can not book a single goon of Sanjays days, then cronies of rajiv, now ministers in governance for the riots they had when the tree fell. ? Worst punishment a citizen can suffer is the "prosecution" in court of law for any kind of alleged offence and not the punishment awarded by the court of law. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pawan Durani Date: Monday, December 3, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudijudges To: shuddha at sarai.net Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Hello Shudha , > > NamaskAr.........Hope you dont term me a rightist for using > "NamaskAr" word. > > I could sense from your mail the anger and helplessness you feel . > Beforeyou advise me to chill , please apply that to yourself. > > I still do not understand as to if arguing with me is so > insignificant or > minor , what motivates you to reply to each of my post even if really > doesn't matter . I know somewhere you know the truth as well , and > it is an > ego in you which keeps you defending yourself and attacking my > nationalisticviewpoint. > > If I write about Pseudo secularists in general , you take it as an > insult to > yourself . If I talk about hollow intellectualism which some > believe in ,you > again take it so personally . C'mon .....Chill. I may be referring > aboutsomeone else as well. > > Well , about your research about iconoclasm , the less said the > better . My > knowledge about Kashmir has its roots well before google was > invented. And > for those who want to make rest of world believe that humans came > out of > eggs, google would help them write long long stories. > > About my posts on various subject, i believe Partha may like to > confirm it > .,....i have at many instances posted an article which I found > interesting . > And whenever someone replied , i just said that these views were not > necessarily mine . I always provide a link to the original. I do > not blame > you for not understanding these basics......i have learnt it long > back.....it may take you few more years. > > And about your threat of defamation , well I am scared. So should > others be > in this society of double standards . Where a person defends > Hussain but is > planning to to encourage people to file a defamation against me. > > I wonder what others have to say about threat of Shudha. > > I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write the > word Pseudo > Secularist and hollow intellectual again..... > > But are you one for real ? > > Pawan > > > > On 12/1/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > I am well aware of the ground realities of any situation I > choose to write > > about. I am sure, that you must be aware by now that I make it > my business > > > > to research anything that I write about on the reader list in > some detail. > > > > I suggest you take a close look at your own levels of awareness > of what > > you > > claim as your own history (I notice, for instance, that there is > as yet no > > > > reply from you or Rashneek to my annotations on the history of > iconoclasm> in Kashmir). > > > > And no, I am neither a member, nor a sympathizer of any "M-L > type of > > organization". I would urge you not to make public assumptions > about the > > biographies of individuals you do not know. It's risky, you end > up running > > the risk of being called either a liar, or being exposed as > being very > > ignorant. You also run the risk of being accused (rightly, in my > opinion)> of defamation if you continue to articulate assumptions > of this nature on > > any public platform. So, be careful. > > > > I think that your problem is that you want to put people into > neat boxes, > > on which you want to put labels that your limited understand can > make> snese > > of, and then assign you assign to these lablels - roles in the > shadow> boxing joust of your own imagination. So, first you > decided that you would > > corner us by sending us the details of the atrocities of so called > > communist regimes, then, when we argued that the atrocities of > so called > > communist regimes are indefensible, you changed tack. When we argued > > strongly against the atrocities of regimes led by communist > parties, such > > as has happenned in West Bengal, you turned around and defended > Buddhadeb> Bhattacharya. > > > > You tried to invoke Sethusamudran, then, when we said yes, > Sethusamudran> was a bad idea, you had no space left to squirm. > Then you post some > > atrocity in Saudi Arabia, and we say, yes Saudi Arabia is hell, > and now, > > you have less and less room to maneuver. Really, it must be hard > being> you. > > > > Finally, whenever you have nothing left to say, when your > arguments are in > > > > shambles, when your misrepresentations stand exposed, you invoke > and hurl > > the term 'intellectual' as a term of abuse. As if the work of > evolving a > > critical understanding of the world were something to be ashamed > of. I see > > > > no reason to be ashamed of intellectual work, just as I see no > reason to > > be > > ashamed or any other kind of human activity. Can you imagine a > situation> where we would go around churlishly accusing each other > of being 'pastry > > cooks', or 'dancers' or 'acrobats' or 'steelworkers' or 'photo shop > > operators' whenever we were faced with the weakness of our own > positions> and arguments. It would be absured. It would actually > be pathetic. And > > when > > you cry 'intellectual' you sound just as absurd, just as > pathetic, just as > > infantile. > > > > You write, you argue, you try to present your view of the world. > > Unfortunately, that makes you an intellectual. Just as what I do > makes me > > an intellectual. There can be debate about the quality of our > arguments,> about how well they stand up to reason, and to the > complexities of our > > times. There can be arguments about whether or not our > intellectual work > > is > > of any value. But accusing people of being 'intellectuals' per > se, is > > frankly, neither here, nor there. It is a meaningless statement. > > > > We all have a lot of things to do in our lives. And believe me, > arguing> with you is only a very minor, highly insignificant > detail in the rich > > tapestry of our days. Regardless, it shall continue to be done, > whenever> it > > is crucially necessary for it to be done. Take my advice, relax, > chill> out, > > think about a few things other than what you have made your pet > obsession,> and don't jump to the gun all the time. You misfire, > badly. And sometimes > > the bullets ricochet in your own direction. Or as we might say > in football > > > > parlance "self-goal se bachte raho saathi" ("stay clear of self > goals,> friend") > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 10:42 am 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and > looking at > > how > > > few of you try to link everything and anything communal > happening with > > > Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead to ? Each time you > > > quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir > " , > > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of > the ground > > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a > terrorist or > > > a separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > > > figures. Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which > > > happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread > > > discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of > > > Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being > > > destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same > time non > > > of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken > down to > > > peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of > expression and > > > at the same time you want all these liberties to be taken with > Hindu> > relegion. Each time you talk of secular parties which you > love even > > > though thay may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and > at the > > > same time you need an anti allergic tablet if BJP is called > secularist> > as well. Each time you speak of evil in Babu > bajrangi but you have > > > closed your thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and > Hamdanis. Cmon > > > ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > state has > > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti > people in > > > Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than typing few > words on > > > the keyboard. Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Pawan, > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > earlier> > post, and as is evident from your posting of the brutal > treatment> > meted out to a young woman who has been the victim of > gang rape in > > > Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to > be the > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > intellectual> > that I find interesting it the one who has no > problem at all in terms > > > of evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what > form it > > > takes, no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect > > > for people like Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon > ourselves to > > > sharply criticize his prevaricating apology for the 'Left > > > Front' government's violence against its own subjects > in West > > > Bengal > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who > have> > been active on this list in arguing against the Indian > state's> > military occupation of the Kashmir valley have had > no problems at all > > > in being determined in our opposition to oppression when it > occurs in > > > Left Front ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of > military> > dictatorship in Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter > when it occurs > > > under the aegis of the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. > Tomorrow, if > > > North Korea were to be discussed on this list, I would be certain > > > that there will be clear arguments on this list against the > imbecilic> > regime that rules North Korea at the moment. The list > can be > > > justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the United States, > Russia and > > > many other countries and states. > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. > It is > > > ruled by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by > money,> > weapons and influence wielded by British and American > corporate> > intersts and foreign policy. If the international > community was > > > justified in operating a set of sanctions against the hated South > > > African apartheid regime, it should have no business in > cosying up to > > > the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, anti-semitic Saudi > regime which > > > is the favourite retirement support agency of third rate dictators > > > like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz Sharif. > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of > British> > foreign policy in the middle east in the early > twentieth century > > > presides over an imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the > > > particularly Salafist brand of Islam that is held out as an > ideal by > > > the Saudi monarchy and its rented clerics is rightly rejected > by the > > > majority of Muslims in the world. Its significance lies only > in that > > > it is backed by petro-dollars and American fighter jets. > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi > Arabia to the > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > abominations that need to be fought, and fought till they are > > > destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism > > > perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the short, sharp > end of > > > Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < > pawan.durani at gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered- > 200-lashes- > > > and > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi > Arabia's> > > Higher Judicial Council has actually sentenced > a rape victim to > > > > receive 200 lashes and prison while the perpetrators of > > > > humanity's most heinous crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in > the car > > > > of an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However > > > > after the woman had the temerity of not unquestioningly > submitting> > > herself to be tortured as punishment of being > raped, the judges on > > > > Saudi Arabia's Higher Judicial Council more than > doubled her > > > > punishment for attempting to influence the judiciary > through the > > > > media. > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has > been> > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > > > revoked and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary > > > > committee for challenging the judgment, which only punished the > > > > victim of the crime and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists > > > > were given a paltry sentence of one to five years of > imprisonment.> > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social > discipline.> > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.ne t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From alice at tank.tv Mon Dec 3 17:14:36 2007 From: alice at tank.tv (Alice O'Reilly) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 11:44:36 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] www.tank.tv : Flashback : Roxy Bar and Screen : 05.12.07 : 8pm Message-ID: <442eb4460712030344m1ffe37a2yf87a8267fcc3f4e8@mail.gmail.com> tank.tv Flashback Roxy Bar and Screen 5th December 2007, 8pm. Admission free. tank.tv will present it's best of 2007 in the first of their bi-monthly screenings at the Roxy Bar and Screen. This look over the year's activities will take in film and video work from 20 artists including John Smith, Ryan Gander, Susanne Burner, John Wood & Paul Harrison and many more. Please join us for this end of year event at one of London's most esteemed screening venues. Roxy Bar and Screen 128 - 132 Borough High St London SE1 1LB www.tank.tv www.roxybarandscreen.com tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - Alice O'Reilly tank.tv 5th floor 49-50 Great Marlborough street London W1F 7JR alice at tank.tv T +44 (0)207434 0110 F +44 (0)207434 9232 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: Love & Hate 15th October – 15th November 2007 Fresh Moves - Out now! Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon Dec 3 14:53:20 2007 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (artNET) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:23:20 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_7_Ways_to_Say_In?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ternet_With_Netart?= Message-ID: <20071203102320.9FCAA21E.A385269B@192.168.0.3> JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org released recently the netart feature "Seven Ways To Say Internet with Net Art" - curated by Elena Giulia Rossi http://www.javamuseum.org/2007/index1.html including works by Juliet Davis Reinhald Drouhin Free Soil (Amy Franceschini, Myriel Milicevic, Nis Rømer) Molleindustria Santiago Ortiz C.J.Yeh Lorenzo Pizzanelli ------------------------------------------- Curatorial statement ------------------------------------------- Seven Ways To Say Internet with Net Art Elena Giulia Rossi Since its inception, net art has always been referring to its own medium. The seven works selected, created in different times, address different facets of the nature of Internet, from the social perception of the self and of the body in relation to technology, to the potential impact that this medium can have on society, mostly when art is concerned. The relationship between nature art and representation of the self with the flow of information is synthesized in the hybrid portrait of "Deus Fleurs" by the French artist Reynald Drouhin. Generative processes as art are the core of C.J. Yeh's "Equal" where personal data generate modernist-like paintings. Sound and space in relation to dynamics and energy are the subject of Santiago Ortiz's "Sound and Energy" where Internet is treated as a canvas for dynamic and interactive sketches. Molleindustria's works, a collective engaged in the creation of original games aimed to rise political concerns are excellent examples of how games, and Internet as a vehicle to foster them, can ease issues otherwise difficult to face. "Mc Donald's Videogame" is a courageous critique of the McDonald's brand and of the functioning of its corporation, at the origin of remarkable ecological damages. It is through the game that Juliet Davis explores in "Pieces of Herself" feminine embodiment and its relation to real and virtual space. A game is also involved in Iconoclast Game by Lorenzo Pizzanelli: through irony and play the author gives a critical view of the power of images and of the museums that make them sacred. F.R.U.I.T., engaged in the shaping of an on-line community to encourage cultivation within urban areas, is a project where the network activity is art. It makes clear that net art is "action" and it is closer to performing than any other art practice. ------------------------------------- About the curator Elena Giulia Rossi works and lives in Rome/Italy as an independent curator. Since 2002, she has been collaborating with MAXXI - National Museum of 21st Century Art Rome/Italy, where she is curating since 2005 a section dedicated to net/web art. She regularly writes for the on-line edition of the Italian newspaper "L'Unità". Detailed bio on http://and.nmartproject.net/?p=1394 Detailed artists biographies Juliet Davis (USA) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1401 Reinhald Drouhin (France) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1402 Free Soil (Amy Franceschini, Myriel Milicevic, Nis Rømer) http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1403 Molleindustria (Italy) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1404 Santiago Ortiz (Colombia) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1405 C.J.Yeh (Taiwan) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1406 Lorenzo Pizzanelli (Italy) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1407 ------------------------------------- The netart feature - "Seven Ways To Say Internet with Net Art" - http://www.javamuseum.org/2007/index1.html represents also the JavaMuseum contribution to NewMediaFest2007 http://2007.newmediafest.org http://www.newmediafest.org/blog/ and can be accessed via the festival interface. -------------------------------------- JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org is a corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net info (at) javamuseum.org -------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 02:57:26 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 03:27:26 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Asterix & The Big Fight (Musee Guimet cont.) Message-ID: Apologies for inundating the list, the Guimet debate grows by hour. Most of the posts about Guimet have been from one side. Finally, an "Anonymous" supporter of the exhibition has written from the "other side": Astrerix & The Big Fight http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/03/guimet-the-other-side/ [I responded to Anon in comment # 2] The original 'Tintin in Bengal' post has been updated with feedback/critique from bloggers, in these sections: 2. Precedent for Art Anxiety 3. Guimet as a Signifier 4. The Robbery Jitters http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ From vivek at sarai.net Tue Dec 4 08:26:49 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:26:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] abstracts and general audience highlights for Wednesday 5 December Message-ID: <4754C1F1.8090907@sarai.net> *Highlights and Abstracts for tomorow's session -- Wednesday, 5 December* Hi all-- Again, comments or posts (critical or otherwise) on today's (Tuesday's) sessions would be very welcome! Highlights for a more general audience, tomorrow: "Creeper" by Ram Ganesh Kamatham (7.00 pm), and a panel on: the Dalit Panthers, caste and gender violence in Kerala and revisiting the long term effects of the 1992 Mumbai riots (11.45 pm). 7.00 – 8.15 “Creeper”, a play written and directed by Ram Ganesh Kamatham, recasting the Vikram and Vetal myth in a contemporary urban setting. Featuring Mallika Prasad and Abhishek Majumdar. (Running time: 1 hour fifteen minutes) "Shit!" "What?" "Some kid fell off an escalator in Garuda mall and died." "It's ok, it's ok. As long as it's not someone we know. Just someone else's kid." "How can they let this happen? People must be allowed to go shopping in peace." About the play This is a story about two people in the city. She is the expert narrator, he is a mischievous sutradhar. These two story-tellers have amazing stories to share. Problem is they don't agree on how to tell the story! Creeper is a modern re-imagination of the tale of Vikram and Vetal. The play slams this mythos into a contemporary urban setting – creating a shadowy world that is immediately recognizable, yet bizarre and entertaining. “Creeper” was written and produced as part of Ram Ganesh Kamatham’s project on Vikram and Vetal during the 2007 Sarai-CSDS Independent Fellowship. Kamatham, one of Bangalore’s best known up-and-coming directors (ramganeshk @gmail.com) has created work for stage, film, radio, and video games. The project is blogged at: http://addledbraindump.blogspot.com/ * 11.45 – 1.15 In the Midst of Conflict I: Looking Back and Looking Ahead Chair: Ravi Sundaram [Ravi Sundaram (ravis @sarai.net) is a Fellow of the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies. He is one of the initiators of Sarai and is one of the editors of the Sarai Reader series. He coordinates the media city research project. He has written extensively on contemporary intersection of technology, media and urban experience.] Arvind Kumar Caste Violence in Urban Maharashtra: A study of the 1974 Worli Riots in Mumbai and the Dalit Panthers Movement The proposed study intends to analyse the Worli riots of 1974 when there was a violent clash between the Shiv Sena and the Dalit Panthers. In this riot the main target of communal wrath were dalits who opted out of the oppressive caste-hindu religion and converted to Neo-Buddhism. The riots and the agitation brought to the surface dissensions within the Dalit Panther movement, which ultimately led to its split in 1974. There are enough sources available on Dalit Panther movement. The consciousness of revolt was also expressed in an outburst of poetry by new writers like Namdev Dhasal, Daya Powar, J V Pawar, Waman Nimbalkar, Arun Kamble and many others. The present study will locate the Worli riots in a historical perspective and will try and address new questions as and when they arise through the course of the study. Arvind Kumar (arvind.access @gmail.com) is pursuing a PhD in American Studies at the School of International Studies, JNU on the topic 'Discrimination and Resistance - A Comparative Study of Black Movements in the U.S and Dalit Movements in India'. P. Jenny and C. Christy Chitralekha’s Burning Autorickshaw: Caste, Class and Gender in the Urban Space of Keralam This proposal is about a Dalit woman married to a Backward Caste man and their struggle to move above caste and gender structures in a moffusil town in Keralam. The story begins when the couple buys an autorickshaw in Chithra Lekha's name and she decides to drive it herself. However, Chithra Lekha's caste and gender identity makes it impossible for her to step into the public sphere of this liberated moffusil town. The leftist trade union (mainly consisting of a dominant BC caste) already angered by her caste violation of marrying above her caste, acts against her by delaying her membership card and continues to harass her till at last her autorickshaw is burned to ashes. In this project we collect and document each and every aspect of this (true) incident by conducting thorough interviews with all the people concerned. Along with this we would also like to produce a theoretical paper which tries to understand how caste, class, gender relations constitute the urban space in Keralam. Here we would examine: > how the dominant Marxist party works to reproduce the caste and gender structure in Keralam; > the important tools of sexual morality which are used against the progress of Dalit and "other" women; > the intricacies of the OBC-Dalit relationship and the reasons that triggers violence between them; > the role of subaltern masculinities in the entire incident. P. Jenny (jenny.chithra @gmail.com) is an independent researcher, writer and columnist. She holds a PhD on Malayalam Cinema, from the Central Institute of English and Foreign Languages, Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh. C. Christy (christy.carmel @gmail.com) is at present doing her PhD in Media and Commmunications from the Central University of Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh. Meena Menon Recovering Lost Histories: Riot Victims, the Communal Polarisation of Mumbai and Its Impact on People and Perceptions about Communities Is Mumbai the unbreakable city it is touted to be? As a city, it has changed in obvious and not so obvious ways since the post Babri Masjid demolition riots of December 1992 and January 1993. The main focus of the research will be the families of the riot victims and their lives after more than a decade since the violence. The research is based on interviews first hand visits to places and talking to as wide a spectrum of people as possible— including researchers, journalists, riot affected families, government, police officials, apart from political parties. At the end of the research I would like to use the material for a book. Meena Menon (meenamenon @gmail.com) is currently a special correspondent with The Hindu. She has been a journalist for 22 years and has worked with The Times of India, Mid-day and the United of News of India. ************************************************************************************************** Wed 5 December Venue: LTG Auditorium, Mandi House 10.00 am – 11.30 Distant Communities Chair: Ravikant [Ravikant (ravikant @sarai.net) taught and researched history in Delhi University for a number of years. He currently conceptualises and edits content in Hindi at Sarai. He is the co-editor of Deewan-e-Sarai (the Hindi Reader series). He also writes for Hindi magazines and newspapers on the issues of media, language, computing and translation.] Surya Prakash Upadhyay Guru on the Air: Televised Hinduism in Contemporary India The project proposes to look at the instrumentality of audio-visual media in the construction and maintenance of the religio-spiritual world in contemporary Hinduism and in the mobilization of people towards “tele-gurus”. The project attempts to look into a recent and interesting addition in the religious sphere, especially in present-day Hinduism, catered to the people by cable television in the urban spaces. It looks at a new-age guru named Asharam Bapu, and at the phenomenon of media playing a vital part in the growth of his organization, in increasing the numbers of followers and devotees, and in propagation as well as spread of religiosity and spirituality among people. There are several gurus and also several devotional channels that are highly influential in urban spaces, transmitting their programmes through television and providing an opportunity for people to listen and watch their favorite guru. This development in the media sector has filled the gap of physical absence of the guru and multiplied the communication between him and his followers. The aim of the research is to give a ‘thick description’ of the whole phenomenon. Surya Prakash Upadhyay (surya_rajan21 @yahoo.com) is a Research Scholar in the Dept of Humanities and Social Sciences, Indian Institute of Technology Bombay. Neelima Chauhan Blogit Hindi Jati ka Linkit Man: Blogon mein Hindi Hypertext ka Adhayayan (The World of Hindi Blogs) This research attempts to do an online study of Hindi hyper text on Hindi blogs. It will be an attempt to make a critical appreciation of Language and style of hypertextual prose as it flows through the terminals of Hindi Bloggers. It will be an online study which will take in account the existing blogs, Hindi Networks, Blog Archives, Comments etc. Narratives from the Hindi Online community will be collected. The objective is to identify the construction of the grand narrative of 'Hindi Jati' (Hindi nationality) as described in Hindi literary criticism, especially that by Ram Vilas Sharma. This construction of Hindi Jati where geographical space seemingly becomes meaningless (or less important, at least) will be explored. As the research will be an online study, its progress will be available to all interested in real time. Neelima Chauhan (neelimasayshi @gmail.com)'s doctoral and postdoctoral work is in post-colonial Hindi prose. She teaches Hindi at Delhi University's Zakir Husain Post Graduate Evening College. The blog for this project can be found at: http://linkitmann.blogspot.com/ Raman Jit Singh Chima The Regulation of the Internet by the Indian State Though considerable work has been done on exploring how the Internet is capable of being regulated, not much has been done to chart out the exact shape of such regulation of expression on the Internet in India. More importantly, the exact manner in which the Indian State has regulated the Internet through all the structures and mechanisms at its disposal has not been studied, which is important since this affects the flow of speech and expression. In order to attempt to chart out the empirical aspects of Internet regulation in India and its linkages with normative frameworks, the focus of this project is thus on the following two goals: firstly, to track out and study the manner in which the Indian State regulates the Internet through legal structures and connected mechanism (both through formal legal rules as well as through informal measure such as executive action); and secondly, to analyze how this regulatory framework relates to the constitutional safeguards with respect to the limitations on state action viz. free speech and expression and whether it respects these constraints. Raman Chima (ramanchima @gmail.com) is pursuing the B.A.LL.B. (Hons) program at the National Law School of India University, Bangalore and is currently in the 3rd year of this course. The blog for this project can be found at: http://stateoftheweb.blogspot.com/ 11.45 – 1.15 In the Midst of Conflict I: Looking Back and Looking Ahead 11.00 – 11.30 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Listen, Little Man-- by Madhavi Tangella; [See also discussion with Shivam Vij on Friday’s programme below.] Listen Little Man is a 28-minute documentary film study of ragging in India. Madhavi Tangella (manzilechar @yahoo.com) worked on Sagar Cinema, a “poor man’s multiplex” for her Sarai Independent Fellowship. She is currently a film student at SRFTI, Kolkata. 1.30 – 3.00 In the Midst of Conflict II: Reading Between the Column Inches Chair: Sanjay Sharma [Sanjay Sharma (sanjaykusharma @yahoo.co.in) is a historian and radio broadcaster. He teaches History at Zakir Hussain College, Delhi University and is co-editor of Sarai-CSDS’s Hindi reader series, Deewan-e-Sarai.] Shiju Sam Varughese The Public Sphere as a Site of Knowledge Production: Science in the Malayalam Press This study attempts to understand the functioning of the public sphere, constituted through the regional press in Keralam, as a site of knowledge production in the context of scientific controversies. This will be studied by taking a specific scientific controversy as case. In the wake of an earthquake on 12th December 2000, several unusual geophysical incidents including well collapses, coloured rains and micro tremors began appearing in Keralam. These phenomena have been reported in the regional press from every nook and cranny of the region and the deliberations over it continued for almost one year in the regional press, involving a wide range of issues and actors. This case will be studied in detail based on content analysis of five major Malayalam newspapers (Malayala Manorama, Mathrubhumi, Deshabhimani, Madhyamam, and Keralam Kaumudi) as well as interviews with key actors involved in the controversy. This is to demonstrate how the public sphere acts as a site of knowledge production in the context of a scientific controversy. Shiju Sam Varughese (shijusam @gmail.com)is a doctoral candidate at the Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi. His research is on the public understanding of science in Keralam. Alok Puranik Bazaar Reporting in Hindi Newspapers In the days when the Sensex is a mandatory presence in news reporting, Alok Puranik tried to study reportage of the market in Hindi newspapers down the years. When did these market reports originate, how did its terminology evolve, what was its relationship with the rest of the news and how has it changed over the years? He starts his study in 1947 and concentrates on two dailies published from Delhi. Alok Puranik (puranika @gmail.com) is an economist, columnist, satirist, and blogger who teaches at Agrasen College, Delhi University. His books include Neki kar Akhbar mein Daal and Arthik Patrakarita. Shubhra Nagalia The Representation of Communal Conflicts in Hindi Media: A Case study of the 2005 Mau Riots The research investigates the reportage of Mau riots by electronic and print media. While there has been extensive documentation and studies on the ‘communalisation’ of media and its role in riot situations, the small town manifestation of this phenomenon in Mau and its resultant repercussions on hegemonic discourses and construction of religious identity will be one of the areas of our study. The images, slogans, language and presentation of Mau riots through the lens of Hindi media; linkages between political influences, capital and communities that shapes the contours of media in general and local news in particular will also be subjects of our research. The paper also contains detailed interview excerpts. Shubhra Nagalia (shubhra_n71 @yahoo.com) is doing her Ph.D in the School of International Studies, JNU. She has taught Women’s Studies at Mahatma Gandhi University, Wardha. She is a longtime activist and a member of All India Progressive Womens’ Association. 3.15—4.45 Other Traditions Chair: Priya Sen [Priya Sen is a trained filmmaker who has taught media production in the US and India. She works with sound, multimedia and radio content at the Cybermohalla Labs. She is part of the editorial collective of the broadsheet series Sarai.txt.] Priya Babu Traditions of the Aravani (Transgender) Community in Tamilnadu Aravanis, called Hijrahs in north India, have existed in Tamilnadu for several centuries. Though born biologically as males, they closely identify themselves as girl/woman. By doing so, they undergo a lot of suffering due to the great psychological pressure exerted by different social forces that prevail. Because of lack of understanding among the general public and the society, those who do not behave like boys are often discrimination and even face violence from their own family members. Hence they are forced to leave their family members and later join the Aravani community, which accepts them and provides support. This research will study and document the Tamilnadu Aravani community’s varied traditions. It will try to understand different sects and their hierarchies with a focus on interrelations during public celebrations and private gatherings. In the process, the project will also document their worshipping places, their relation with the god Aravan and the story of how they became linked with mainstream society. Priya Babu (priyababu_sudar @yahoo.co.in) is a Chennai-based researcher, journalist and coordinator of the theatre group, ‘Kannadi Kalai Kuzhu’. She is herself a member of the Aravani community. Mithun Narayan Bose Tracing Life from the Stroke: Documenting the Rickshaw-Painting of Kolkata Streets The paintings behind the rickshaws of the city of Calcutta are a unique example of an unnoticed urban folk-art, and the detailed study of the paintings can be an alternative way to know about the life of these people. As most of the Calcutta rickshaw-pullers have migrated to the city from other places, the paintings’ style reflect the form/ style of art available at the rickshaw-puller’s place of origin. A unique heterogeneity is also observed due to its confluence with the urban style. Thematically, the rickshaw paintings of Calcutta-streets are of different types (e.g. religious, landscape, portrait of near and dear ones, film star etc.). In this project, the painting behind the rickshaws is documented with the help of both video recording and photography. Mithun Narayan Bose (bangali_mnb @yahoo.com) is a language teacher at a Kolkata school. He contributes regularly to several Kolkata little magazines, and his interests include poetry, folklore, cultural anthropology, art and art criticism. Deepak Kadyan Popular Musical Traditions and Configuration of Jat identity in Haryana, 1900-2000 This research seeks to examine the relationship between popular musical traditions and the forging of a jat identity in north India in general and in Haryana in particular. The processes of identity formation and self-perceived notions of community are analyzed and discerned through the prism of popular culture and as to how a 'community' viewed itself, and what its aspirations have been over a period of time. An important aspect of this study is an analysis of the sites of performance and circulation of this oral tradition. One such site is the akharas (lit. a wrestling arena, but here, it refers to a space for rehearsals and practice), influential until the mid twentieth century. Another such site available to oral tradition for circulation was the colonial army and police. The history of oral tradition is intertwined with the history of prominent performers, and major structural and performative changes, whether in terms of musical instruments, rhythms, intonation, appropriation of symbols or content— in other words, the relationship between performers and performance. Interestingly, the social composition of oral tradition in Haryana is different, as it wasn't dominated by any particular community. Deepak Kadyan can be reached at: hie.deepak at gmail.com 5.30 – 6.00 pm (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Performance Art: “This Evening Too: From Lal Ded to Abdul Ahad Zargar” by Inder Salim: Space limited to 25 persons only—first come, first serve. Inder Salim (indersalim @gmail.com), an Independent Fellow this year, is a performance artist based in Delhi. He blogs his work at: http://indersalim.livejournal.com/ 7.00 – 8.15 (Back in main auditorium) “Creeper”, a play written and directed by Ram Ganesh Kamatham, recasting the Vikram and Vetal myth in a contemporary urban setting. Featuring Mallika Prasad and Abhishek Majumdar. (Running time: 1 hour fifteen minutes) From hpp at vsnl.com Tue Dec 4 15:56:15 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:56:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Second statement by Comsky et al. Message-ID: <014701c83660$5126b270$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Dear Friends Here is the statement signed by Prof Noam Chomsky and others in the wake of the critique of their earlier statement following the recent events in Nandigram. V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com ................ We are taken aback by a widespread reaction to a statement we made with the best of intentions, imploring a restoration of unity among the left forces in India --a reaction that seems to assume that such an appeal to overcome divisions among the left could only amount to supporting a very specific section of the CPM in West Bengal. Our statement did not lend support to the CPM's actions in Nandigram or its recent economic policies in West Bengal, nor was that our intention. On the contrary, we asserted, in solidarity with its Left critics both inside and outside the party, that we found them tragically wrong. Our hope was that Left critics would view their task as one of putting pressure on the CPM in West Bengal to correct and improve its policies and its habits of governance, rather than dismiss it wholesale as an unredeemable party. We felt that we could hope for such a thing, of such a return to the laudable traditions of a party that once brought extensive land reforms to the state of West Bengal and that had kept communal tensions in abeyance for decades in that state. This, rather than any exculpation of its various recent policies and actions, is what we intended by our hopes for 'unity' among the left forces. We realize now that it is perhaps not possible to expect the Left critics of the CPM to overcome the deep disappointment, indeed hostility, they have come to feel towards it, unless the CPM itself takes some initiative against that sense of disappointment. We hope that the CPM in West Bengal will show the largeness of mind to take such an initiative by restoring the morale as well as the welfare of the dispossessed people of Nandigram through the humane governance of their region, so that the left forces can then unite and focus on the more fundamental issues that confront the Left as a whole, in particular focus on the task of providing with just and imaginative measures an alternative to neo-liberal capitalism that has caused so much suffering to the poor and working people in India. Signed Michael Albert Tariq Ali Akeel Bilgrami Victoria Brittain Noam Chomsky Charles Derber Stephen Shalom From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 23:57:07 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 13:27:07 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Second statement by Comsky et al. In-Reply-To: <014701c83660$5126b270$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> References: <014701c83660$5126b270$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Message-ID: Hi, Rama! Where did this statement appear? In The Hindu? Tapas On 04/12/2007, V Ramaswamy wrote: > Dear Friends > > Here is the statement signed by Prof Noam Chomsky and others in the wake of > the critique of their earlier statement following the recent events in > Nandigram. > > V Ramaswamy > Calcutta > cuckooscall.blogspot.com > > ................ > > We are taken aback by a widespread reaction to a statement we made with the > best of intentions, imploring a restoration of unity among the left forces From vivek at sarai.net Wed Dec 5 07:48:58 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 07:48:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thursday 6 December -- General Audience Highlights Message-ID: <47560A92.6020907@sarai.net> Hi all, Things hot up a little as the workshop races to its conclusion. Highlights for a general audience tomorrow (Thursday 6 December) might early in the day and include the last part of artist Inder Salim's performance piece, a solo "forum theatre" show by Pritham Chakravarty, a feature length video presentation by Debkamal Ganguly, and the second of our special panels (the first special panel, yesterday, was truly fascinating), featuring ex-fellows Zainab Bawa, Parismita Singh, Madhavi Tangella and Prasad Shetty. Read on for details! And scroll to for detailed abstracts of the entire day's lineup. *Highlights for a General Audience -- Thursday December 6, 2007* (LTG Auditorium, Mandi House) 1. 6.15 – 6.45 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Performance Art: “This Evening Too: From Lal Ded to Abdul Ahad Zargar” by Inder Salim: Space limited to 25 persons only—first come, first serve. Inder Salim (indersalim @gmail.com), an Independent Fellow this year, is a performance artist based in Delhi. He blogs his work at: http://indersalim.livejournal.com/ 2. 7.15pm – 8pm Chennai Sabha Drama: An Actor’s Story: Solo performance by Pritham Chakravarty (running time: 30 mins) For her 2007 Independent Fellowship project, Pritham Chakravarty researched and revisited the lingering artifacts of a scene that she herself had been a part of as a child actress: Chennai’s “sabha drama”, a semi-amateur subscription theatre scene. Her solo show performance is not autobiographical, but is based on a composite reconstruction of interviews with actors and others—it draws on Chakravarty’s usual and intensive method of designing one-person scripts based on a series of interviews, inhabiting the persona of the interviewed. Pritham K. Chakravarty (prithu7 @hotmail.com) has been a political theatre performer and theatre activist based in Chennai for 20 years; but her acting debut first came on the Sabha drama stage itself, at the age of six. 3. 4.30 – 6.00 Work In “Progress”: Feature-length video by Debkamal Ganguly (87 minutes) Following the trail of a 1932 journey by one key Bengali novelist, Bibhutibhushan, the video tries to explore varied ways of interaction of 'urban-subject' with 'non-urban' forest and plateau-like spaces, close to the western border of West Bengal. Selecting Bangla texts as early as 1872 to as late as 2007, the video tries to articulate the changing trajectory of space-emotion, from mythical to self-conscious to sublime to existentialist and finally the virtual and hyper-real. The video acknowledges the random and arbitrary as an aesthetic function and recycles whatever comes along its way. Debkamal Ganguly (deb99kamal @yahoo.com)’s work as a scriptwriter, film and sound editor (including with director Vipin Vijay) has earned him some national and international recognition. He pursues this current project as a 2007 Sarai-CSDS Associate Fellow. 4. 2.15 –4.15 Special Panel: Where Does Research Go? Featuring: Zainab Bawa, Parismita Singh, Madhavi Tangella and Prasad Shetty. Discussant: Vivek Narayanan. If research really did proceed as it plans to do, time after time, in the bright, overdeterminate clarity of good proposals, asking direct questions and receiving exact answers, this would not be saying very much for the richness or depth of our lives, our social and built structures and knotted networks! Instead, we wander, we diverge, we rethink, we scratch out, we revisit: the strength of research is not in the attempt to control the world’s material but in questions leading to new questions, that is, in the ability to stay alert while the ground unexpectedly shifts under us. In this panel, we ask four previous Independent Fellows to look back on their fellowship research, considering the ways they have been led to unexpected conclusions, new projects, critiques of what they were doing in the first instance, and revisitings of the original site of research to find it changed. How does research evolve, and what kinds of other projects does it lead to? Prasad Shetty (askshetty @rediffmail.com) is an architect and urban planner. He is a founding member of CRIT (Collective Research Initiatives Trust), Mumbai. Parismita Singh (parismitasingh @yahoo.com) is finishing her first graphic novel, due in 2008. Zainab Bawa (zainabbawa @yahoo.com) talks her walks through a world of words on her infrequently updated blog www.xanga.com/citybytes. Madhavi Tangella (manzilechar @yahoo.com) is currently a film student at SRFTI. Vivek Narayanan (vivek @sarai.net) co-coordinates the Independent Fellowship programme for Sarai and writes, mostly poetry and some fiction. He is Consulting Editor for the web-based literary journal, Almost Island and an Associate Editor for the Boston-based international poetry annual, Fulcrum. His first book of poems appeared last year. *Complete Abstracts for the Day* Thurs 6 December Venue: LTG Auditorium, Mandi House 10.00 am – 11.30 Medicine and Modernity Chair: Awadhendra Sharan Gyaltsen Lama Shamans in Gangtok: A Graphic Novel A four part graphic novel exploring the lives of four different shamans in Gangtok, Sikkim. 20 pages of each part with black and white illustrations. Each part is approached with different illustration and narrative styles. Gyaltsen Lama (gyaltsenlama @gmail.com) received his bachelor of fine arts degree in 2000 from the Sir JJ School of Art, Mumbai. He is currently the fine arts teacher at the Tashi Namgyal Academy, Gangtok. Photographs, interview transcripts, pages from the novel and videos for this project are uploaded at: http://www.etattoo7.com/sarai/home.html M.S. Harilal Adopting Modernisation and Negotiating Modernisation: Placing Modern and Traditional Ayurvedic Sectors in the Context of Transformation The study endeavors to analyze responses of the larger transformation of a traditional medical system, namely Ayurveda, to a more affirmative institutional system and a well developed market. The modern forms of Ayurveda seem to be pulled by both pharmaceutical companies and modern practitioners in a direction that flaunts cultural authenticity and tradition as well as scientific efficacy and standardization for its products. It analyses how the stakeholders in this bifurcation - traditional and modern ayurvedic manufacturing, perceive and deal with modernization, which is two fold, both in form and content. The two specific questions that the study intends to explore, based on selected case analysis and necessary ethnographic works, are: one, How do we explain the recent gains made by many firms operating in the 'modern' sector? Two, what are the ways in which the traditional-informal sector has coped with the processes of transformation? To the gist, we are addressing the question of agential relation in the transformation and want to contrast and compare how the two sections deal with the challenge of globalization or negotiate to find their space in the global era. Three rationales may be given for this study: one, the traditional knowledge systems are increasingly become relevant, two, there is a universal concern to addressing community ownership of traditional knowledge and third, it will help us understand the struggle and revival of similarly placed traditional industries. M.S. Harilal (harilalms @gmail.com) is, at present, a doctoral scholar in Economics at the Centre for Development Studies, Thiruvananthapuram. His current areas of interests are the modernization of Indian systems of medicine, the medicinal plants sector, IPR and traditional knowledge. Burton Cleetus Urbanisation, Western Medicine and Modernity: The Rockefeller Foundation in Travancore One of the most important interventions made by the “progressive” state of Travancore which later became part of the state of Kerala, was in the field of health care. The reorganization of the public health department with the aid of the Rockefeller Foundation of the United States was aimed at drafting a coherent health care policy for the state, primarily to cater to the needs of the emerging population in the urban centres. The study seeks to argue that the process of reconstituting the health care policy by the princely state in the early twentieth century was a political project of governance aimed at socio-cultural framing. A comparison between activities of the Rockefeller foundation in addressing the spread of malaria and plague in the early twentieth century with the attempts made by the state of Kerala in tackling similar contagious diseases in recent times would enable to one understand the shifts in the frames of references of the nature of interventions of western medicine over the last century. Burton Cleetus (burtoncleetus @yahoo.co.uk) is a PhD scholar from the Center for Historical Studies, JNU. He did his post graduation and M Phil from JNU. His research on the institutionalization of indigenous medicine in Kerala is an attempt to explore as to how esoteric cultural practices and localized healing techniques were refashioned, revitalized and consequently institutionalized into the broad framework of Ayurveda. 11.00 – 11.30 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Short film on ragging—Listen, Little Man-- by Madhavi Tangella; see also discussion with Shivam Vij on Friday’s programme below. Madhavi Tangella (manzilechar @yahoo.com) worked on Sagar Cinema, a “poor man’s multiplex” for her Sarai Independent Fellowship. She is currently a film student at SRFTI, Kolkata. 11.45 – 12.45 Two Views of the Changing Industrial Landscape (short documentary films & discussion) Chair: Jeebesh Bagchi Ranu Ghosh The Story of a Laid-off Worker’s Resistance to Eviction in Kolkata I have been following the transformation of a productive, half a century old Jay Engineering Works into Kolkata’s South City Project, “Eastern India's largest mixed use real estate development”. Jay Engineering, commonly called Usha Factory, started operations manufacturing electrical consumer durables in the 1950s. The labour force of this reasonably large manufacturing unit was mostly comprised of migrants from Bihar and UP, and refugees from East Pakistan. The Works was closed down, made defunct and the land was handed over to the real estate consortium of five major real estate “magnates” in 2003. The factory buildings were demolished and the construction of the South City Projects comprising three 35-storey and one 28-storey tower, a shopping mall, school, multiplex, club etc, started from February 2004, which included the illegal filling up of one of south Calcutta's largest natural water bodies. The workers of Jay were forced into retirement with little or no compensation and sent into limbo, except for Shambhu Prasad Singh. Shambhu has refused to opt for the meagre handouts and has instead taken his case to court. Against all odds, and withstanding the sustained pressure of the builders, he continues to live in his original quarters, surrounded and dwarfed on all sides by the construction in progress of South City. This brave stand taken by an individual is an example of how such “development” can be challenged. Since the latter half of 2004 I have been documenting in video and still formats, the stages of development at the construction site as the work progressed and the displaced labour force, and out of that, Shambhu Prasad evolved as an outstanding example of the protest against this “development”. I began to follow his everyday life, his improvised strategies of survival in the face of difficult circumstances and his innate zeal to fight for his rights. He has transformed from a character in my film into that of a collaborator, adding a unique dimension to the project. Ranu Ghosh (ghosh.ranu @gmail.com)has worked as a freelance camera person and director in the Indian industry for the past eight years. T. Venkat and Meghna Sukumar Building the Indian Dream: Living and Working Conditions of Migrant Workers on Chennai's IT Corridor Cities in this country have been promoting huge infrastructural projects in their attempt to redefine themselves to the age of globalisation. The 6 lane express way, christened the IT corridor, along with the luxurious industrial, commercial and residential complexes are part of Chennai city’s attempt to create a global image. Thus to the people of the city it is an image, a dream and an opportunity for change and transformation. To the migrant construction workers it is undeniably an opportunity with enormous economic prospects, but in what ways does it transform their lives? What hope does it hold out for them? What image does it create in them? What is their stake in it? Presented through a short documentary film, our research delves into the aspirations of the workers, and their imageries of the creature they are building. It enquires into the change and transformation that this grand project has brought to their lives. T. Venkata Naga Narasimhan, alias Venkat (venkatt2k @gmail.com), is a post graduate in sociology from the University of Madras. He joined as research assistant to Dr. Karen Coelho (an earlier Sarai Independent Fellow and asst professor at Madras Institute of Development Studies) on a project titled “Neighbourhood Associations as Urban Collective Actors: a comparative study of Bangalore and Chennai” in the year 2006-07. 1pm – 2pm Tracking Literatures Chair: Ravikant Rajiv Ranjan Giri Saraswati ki Sarvajanik Duniya, 1900-1920 (The Popular World of the Journal Saraswati, 1900-1920) Rajiv Ranjan Giri has published extensively on the history of Hindi. He co-edits a Hindi journal called Samved. He can be reached at: rajeevgirijnu @rediffmail.com . Gopal Ji Pradhan Hindi mein Uttar Purv (The North-east in Hindi Literature) Gopal Ji Pradhan is a writer and activist. He teaches Hindi at Assam University, Silchar and can be reached at: gopaljeepradhan @rediffmail.com . 2.15 –4.15 Special Panel: Where Does Research Go? Featuring: Zainab Bawa, Parismita Singh, Madhavi Tangella and Prasad Shetty. Discussant: Vivek Narayanan. 4.30 – 6.00 Work In “Progress”: Feature-length video by Debkamal Ganguly (87 minutes) 6.15 – 6.45 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Performance Art: “This Evening Too: From Lal Ded to Abdul Ahad Zargar” by Inder Salim: Space limited to 25 persons only—first come, first serve. 7.15pm – 8pm Chennai Sabha Drama: An Actor’s Story: Solo performance by Pritham Chakravarty (running time: 30 mins) From naresh.rhythm at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 08:34:40 2007 From: naresh.rhythm at gmail.com (Naresh Kumar) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 08:34:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Do spare and come Message-ID: <9e53509a0712041904w490ca61ey4157371f47960bc0@mail.gmail.com> Forward this mail to All dost who r intrested. From oishiksircar at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 08:37:42 2007 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:07:42 -0600 Subject: [Reader-list] URGENT - STOP BLOODY TAKE OVER FOR POSCO - PLEASE TAKE ACTION! In-Reply-To: <0af201c836e8$1ac0ba90$5b4de0dc@abc> References: <0af201c836e8$1ac0ba90$5b4de0dc@abc> Message-ID: <62cba67a0712041907s38022c5cna26510a4ba48801e@mail.gmail.com> APOLIGIES FOR CROSS POSTING! * **URGENT ACTION ALERT* Dear All The police and state government of Orissa has headed for a bloody and brutal take over of Dhinkia, one of the villages standing in protest against the POSCO steel project. Over the last few days company and state sponsored goodas have repeatedly attacked the villagers from Gaga Kujang, Nuagaon and Dhinkia, without any protection from the administration. Already more than 200 police personnel have been deployed in the area and last night 7 platoons of police entered Dhinkia. But the people of Dhinkia are continuing to put up a resistence, physically barricading the village. Meanwhile the hired trouble makers are using all coercive tactics and extorting money from the people of Guda Kujang and Nuagaon. The matter has reached a head. We need to make URGENT PHONE CALLS OR SEND FAXES to the Prime Minister, Chief Minister of Orissa, and the President to immediately withdraw the Police from Dhinkia and protect the people who are agitating to save their lives and livelihoods PLEASE SEND FAXES AND CALL on the following numbers PRESIDENT OF INDIA SHRM PRATIBHA PATIL PHONE+91-11-23014930 Ext 4211,4400, 4260 (Secretary of President) +91-11-23013488 Ext 4218 (Personal Secretary of President FAX - 91-11-23017290, +91-11-23017824 NATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION , Faridkot House, Copernicus Marg, New Delhi , PIN 110001 Tel.No. 23384012 Fax No. 23384863 E-Mail: covdnhrc at nic.in, ionhrc at nic.in GOVERNER OF ORISSA Phone 0674-2536111 Fax 2536582. IN SOLIDARITY Madhumita Dutta/ Manshi Asher -- OISHIK SIRCAR Fellow in Reproductive & Sexual Health and Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 From aditya at sarai.net Wed Dec 5 12:20:04 2007 From: aditya at sarai.net (Aditya Nigam) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:20:04 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Second statement by Comsky et al. In-Reply-To: References: <014701c83660$5126b270$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Message-ID: <23693.121.247.92.102.1196837404.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> Dear All, Unfortunately, The Hindu has not published it today. Not surprising, is it? Anyway, it is circulating. I am pasting it here again in case it has been missed: "We are taken aback by a widespread reaction to a statement we made with the best of intentions, imploring a restoration of unity among the left forces in India –a reaction that seems to assume that such an appeal to overcome divisions among the left could only amount to supporting a very specific section of the CPM in West Bengal. Our statement did not lend support to the CPM’s actions in Nandigram or its recent economic policies in West Bengal, nor was that our intention. On the contrary, we asserted, in solidarity with its Left critics both inside and outside the party, that we found them tragically wrong. Our hope was that Left critics would view their task as one of putting pressure on the CPM in West Bengal to correct and improve its policies and its habits of governance, rather than dismiss it wholesale as an unredeemable party. We felt that we could hope for such a thing, of such a return to the laudable traditions of a party that once brought extensive land reforms to the state of West Bengal and that had kept communal tensions in abeyance for decades in that state. This, rather than any exculpation of its various recent policies and actions, is what we intended by our hopes for ‘unity’ among the left forces. We realize now that it is perhaps not possible to expect the Left critics of the CPM to overcome the deep disappointment, indeed hostility, they have come to feel towards it, unless the CPM itself takes some initiative against that sense of disappointment. We hope that the CPM in West Bengal will show the largeness of mind to take such an initiative by restoring the morale as well as the welfare of the dispossessed people of Nandigram through the humane governance of their region, so that the left forces can then unite and focus on the more fundamental issues that confront the Left as a whole, in particular focus on the task of providing with just and imaginative measures an alternative to neo-liberal capitalism that has caused so much suffering to the poor and working people in India." Signed Michael Albert, Tariq Ali, Akeel Bilgrami, Victoria Brittain, Noam Chomsky, Charles Derber, Stephen Shalom > Hi, Rama! Where did this statement appear? In The Hindu? > > Tapas > > > On 04/12/2007, V Ramaswamy wrote: >> Dear Friends >> >> Here is the statement signed by Prof Noam Chomsky and others in the wake >> of >> the critique of their earlier statement following the recent events in >> Nandigram. >> >> V Ramaswamy >> Calcutta >> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >> >> ................ >> >> We are taken aback by a widespread reaction to a statement we made with >> the >> best of intentions, imploring a restoration of unity among the left >> forces > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Aditya Nigam Fellow, CSDS, Delhi 011 2394 2199 (O) ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 13:58:33 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 00:28:33 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Peaceful Protest turns Ugly in Islamabad In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0712050028j5f6cb782qcbc5c2ad53b8c2d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0712050028j5f6cb782qcbc5c2ad53b8c2d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0712050028k3386d4e3rfb74df09761ac6cf@mail.gmail.com> 04 Dec 2007, Aabpara, Islamabad Crackdown continues as sham elections approach under "emergency" (Martial Law) pictures http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/2007/12/05/protest-in-pictures-aabpara-islamabad-4th-dec/ account http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/2007/12/05/eyewitness-account-of-the-protest-in-islamabad/ From rs2295 at columbia.edu Wed Dec 5 18:46:11 2007 From: rs2295 at columbia.edu (Rashmi Sadana) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 18:46:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On research at the I Fellows Workshop Message-ID: A few thoughts on Tuesday’s panel on the practice of research featuring what I thought were four really excellent and inspiring presentations by Sabitha, Yousuf, Rahaab, and Mahmood. It was a great example of how innovative and compelling research (and research that keeps growing in new directions, as Shudda aptly reminded us) comes out of one’s deepest curiosities, however idiosyncratic they may seem at first. I think I can safely say we were all wowed by Yousuf’s postage-size image of a Sufi shrine that turned out to be part of a larger “Hindu”- themed poster, which was then revealed to be an even more “complete” photograph of that poster hanging alongside, and ultimately framed by a Technicolor-array of packaged chips and Haldiram snacks on the wall of an ordinary dukaan. This unveiling of perspectives brilliantly displayed Yousuf’s research subject, his methodology, and his analysis of his material (or theoretical take, if you like) all in one. Throughout his presentation, with all of those jaunty colors and seemingly incongruous images passing us by, I kept thinking, “interdisciplinary” is much too banal a concept to capture this kaleidoscope of an archive! Which led me to a more serious thought: What is this magical space that is created in between disciplines? What does it produce and what are its own constraints? Seems to me in all four cases presented on this panel, “old” objects (be they Malayalee women’s journals, Urdu literary texts, historical photographs or mass-produced religiously themed posters) were being framed in new ways – which is exactly what interdisciplinary research is supposed to allow. And yet, part of this framing, I felt, was the “outer” disciplinary line of questioning that each of them brought to their subjects – whether as poets or performers or filmmakers or archivists. But, at the same time, this panel showed – quite crucially, I believe - that being out of a disciplinary framework does not mean not having a framework or analytical understanding of one’s material or at certain points in the amassing of that material. Which is to say I think the distinction between the practitioner and researcher is a false one, or at least that it should be. So when Mahmood talked about his research into the Dastan Goi literary tradition, and started to lament the fact that he had stopped doing research since he now approached the archive as a performer, and so looked for specific things from it, things that would enhance his next performance, I thought, no, that’s exactly what the best research is – when the need to ask particular questions (the questions of the performer in his case) is motivated by the desire to create a response (a performance, or a poem, or the arrangement of an archive, etc.) to the archive that in turn offers up its own critical perspective in the doing. I guess I see that as the potentially happy marriage between theory and practice. But then I’m an idealist, so… --Rashmi From daisyhasan at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 5 19:29:45 2007 From: daisyhasan at yahoo.co.uk (Daisy Hasan) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:59:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Release of Anjum Hasan's novel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <760294.39644.qm@web25412.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Zubaan and Penguin Books India cordially invite you to the launch of Lunatic in my Head by Anjum Hasan on Friday December 7 2007 at 7.00 pm at the Attic, 36 Regal Building (above The Shop) Sansard Marg, New Delhi 110 001 The author will be in conversation with novelist Siddhartha Deb Author of Point of Return and Surface Please join us for tea at 6.30 pm Seating on a first come first served basis RSVP Bharti Taneja (Penguin India) 2649 4401 ext 427 Anita Roy (Zubaan) 2686 4497, 2652 1008 Poetic, funny, tender and reflective, Lunatic in my Head is a moving portrait of a small town. And of three people joined to each other in an intricate web, determined to break out of their small town destinies. --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - the World's favourite mail. From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 21:02:32 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:32:32 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Second statement by Comsky et al. In-Reply-To: <23693.121.247.92.102.1196837404.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> References: <014701c83660$5126b270$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> <23693.121.247.92.102.1196837404.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> Message-ID: <4756C490.80306@gmail.com> I think they owe it to their readers to carry this one, and in the same place as the earlier statement, as they had published that statement. Tapas Aditya Nigam wrote: > Dear All, > Unfortunately, The Hindu has not published it today. Not surprising, is it? > Anyway, it is circulating. From kokopeli at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 23:33:36 2007 From: kokopeli at gmail.com (Sujata & Samantak) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 23:33:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rally on 6 December and relief for Nandigram In-Reply-To: <556b1d6b0712051001x4ac0ffd2qcb4a9bd3ca085a86@mail.gmail.com> References: <556b1d6b0712051001x4ac0ffd2qcb4a9bd3ca085a86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556b1d6b0712051003r5591f6bdkf3c9f4f65d5f8b6@mail.gmail.com> There will be a rally tomorrow, 6 December 2007, starting at 1:00 in the afternoon from Wellington Square and going up to Metro "galli", to protest against communalism (tomorrow being the 15th anniversary of the Babri Masjid demolition), Singur and Nandigram. Please try to be there and spread the news to as many people as possible. On a similar note, relief material is still being collected at the "mancha" at Metro galli (next to the Esplanade metro station, opposite Metro cinema hall). Those who still do not have places to stay in at Nandigram (their houses having been destroyed/taken away) are in urgent need of tarpaulins as the weather begins to turn nastily cold. So, please, if you can contribute some tarpaulins, which will be used to make temporary shelters for the homeless at Nandigram, please come forward. Cash and cheque donations are also very welcome. Please circulate this message widely. Apologies if unwanted and/or found intrusive. Thanks. Samantak Das From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 11:42:17 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:42:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956 - Legal Document No 140 Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> *The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956* Legal Document No 140 *(Extract)* We, the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having solemnly resolved, in pursuance of accession of this State to India which took place on the twenty-sixth day of October, 1947, to further define the existing relationship of the State with the Union of India as an integral part thereof, and to secure to ourselves. *JUSTICE*, social, economic and political; *LIBERTY* of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among us all; *FRATERNITY*, assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity of the Nation; *IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY* This seventeenth day of November, 1956 do Hereby Adopt Enact and Give to ourselves this constitution. *PART I* *PRELIMINARY* 1. (1) this Constitution may be called the Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir. (2) This section and sections 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 158 shall come into force et once and the remaining provisions of this constitution shall come into force on the twenty-sixth day of January, 1957, which day is referred to in this Constitution as the commencement of this Constitution. 2. (I) In this Constitution, unless the context other-wise requires. (a) "Constitution of India" means the Constitu-tion of India as applicable in relation to this State. (b) "existing law" means any law, ordinance, order bye-law, rule notification; or regulation based, made or issued before the commence-ment of this Constitution by the Legislature or other competent authority or person hav-ing power to pass. make or issue such law, ordinance, order bye-law rule, notification or regulation; (c) "Part" means a part of this Constitution; (d) "Schedule" means a schedule to this Constitution; and (e) "taxation" includes the imposition of any tax or impost, whether general or local or special, and "tax" shall be construed accordingly. (2) Any reference in this Constitution to Acts or laws of the State Legislature shall be construed as in-cluding a reference to an Ordianance made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. *PART II* *THE STATE* (3) The State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the Union of India. (4) The territory of the State shall comprise all the territories which on the fifteenth day of August, 1947, were under the sovereignty or suzerainty of the Ruler of the State. (5) The executive and legislative power of the State extends to all matters except those with respect to which Parliament has power to make laws for the State under the provisions of the Constitution of India. *PART III* *PERMANENT RESIDENTS* (6) (l) Every person who is, or is deemed to be, a citizen of India under the provisions of the Constitution of India shall be a permanent resident of the State, if on the fourteenth day of May, 1954. (a) he was a State subject of class I or of class II: or (b) having lawfully acquired immovable pro-perty in the State, he has been ordinarily resident in the State for not less than ten years prior to that date. (2) Any person who, before the fourteenth day of May, 1954 was a State subject of Class I or of Class II and who, having migrated after the first day of March, 1947, to the territory -now included in Pakistan, returns to the State under a permit for resettlement in the State or for permanent return issued by or under the authority of any law made by the State Legislature shall on such return be a permanent resident of the State. (3) In this section, the expression "State subject of Class I or of Class II" shall have the same -meaning as the State Notification No I-L/84 dated the twentieth April. '1927, read with State Notification No 13/L dated the twenty- seventh June, 1932. 7. Unless the context otherwise requires, all referen-ces in any existing law to hereditary State subject or to State subject of class I or of Class II or of class III shall be construed as references to perma-nent residents of the State. 8. Nothing in foregoing provisions of this part shall derogate from the power of the State legislature to make any law defining the classes the persons who are, or shall be permanent residents of the State. 9. A Bill marking provision for any of the following matters, namely. (a) defining or altering the definition of, the classes of persons who are, or shall be, per-manent residents of the State; (b) conferring on permanent residents any special rights or privileges; (c) regulating or modifying any special rights or privileges enjoyed by permanent residents; shall be deemed to be passed by either House of the Legislature only if It is passed by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total membership of that House. 10. The permanent residents of the State shall have all the rights guaranteed to them under the Constitution of India. *PART IV* *DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF STATE POLICY* 11. In this part, unless the context otherwise requires, the State includes the Government and the Legis-lature of the State and all local or other authori-ties within the territory of the State or under the control of the Government of the State. 12. The provisions contained in this Part shall not be enforceable by any court, but the principles therein laid down are nevertheless fundamental in the governance of the State and it shall be the duty of the State to apply these principles in making laws. 13. The prime object of the State consistent with the ideals and objectives of the freedom movement envisaged in "New Kashmir" shall be the pro-motion of the welfare of the mass of the people by establishing and preserving a socialist order of society wherein all exploitation of man has been abolished and wherein justice-social, economic and political-shall inform all the institutions of natio-nal life. 14. Consistently with the objectives outlined in the foregoing section, the State shall develop in a planed manner the productive forces of the coun-try with a view to enriching the material and cul-tural life of the people and foster and protect. (a) the public sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by the State; (b) the co-operative sector where the means of production are co-operatively owned by indi-viduals or groups of individuals; and (c) the private sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by an individual or a corpora-tion employing labour, provided that the operation of this sector is not allowed to result in the concentration of wealth or of the means of production to the common detriment. 15. The State shall endeavour to organise and develop agriculture and animal husbandry by bringing to the aid of the cultivator tile benefits of modern and scientific research and techniques so as to ensure a speedy improvement in the standard of living as also the prosperity of the rural masses. 16. The State shall take steps to organise village panchayats and endow them with such powers and authority as may be necessary to enable them to function as units of self-government. 17. The State shall, in order to rehabilitate, guide and promote the renowned crafts and cottage indus-tries of the State, initiate and execute well consi-dered programmes for refining and modernising techniques and modes of production, including the employment of cheap power so that unnece-ssary drudgery and toil of the workers are elimi-nated and the artistic value of the products en-hanced, while Else fullest scope is provided for the encouragement and development of individual talent and initiative. 18. The State shall lake steps to separate the judiciary from the executive in the public-services, and shall seek to secure a judicial system which is humane, cheap, certain, objective and impartial, whereby justice shall be done and shall be seen to be done and shall further strive to ensure efficiency, im-partiality and incorruptibility of its various organs of justice, administration and public utility. 19. The State shall, within the limits of its economic capacity and development, make effective provi-sion for securing: (a) that all permanent residents, man and women equally, have the right to work, that is, the right to receive guaranteed work with pay-ment for labour in accordance with its quan-tity and quality subject to a basic minimum and maximum wage established by law; (b) that the health and strength of workers, men and women and the tender age of children are not abused and that permanent residents are not forced by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, age or strength; (c) that all workers, agricultural or otherwise have reasonable, just and humane conditions of work with full enjoyment of leisure and social and cultural opportunities, and (d) that all permanent residents have adequate maintenance in old age as well as in the event of sickness, disablement unemployment and other cases of undeserved want by providing social insurance, medical aid, hospitals, sana-toria and health resorts at State expense. 20. The State shall endeavour: (a) to secure to every permanent resident the right to free education upto the University standard; (b) to provide, within a period often years from the commencement of this constitution, com-pulsory education for all children until they complete the age of fourteen years; and (c) to ensure to all workers and employees ade-quate facilities for adult education and part -time technical, professional and vocational courses. 21. The State shall strive to secure: (a) to all children the right to happy childhood with adequate medical care and attention; and (b) to all children and youth equal opportunities in education and employment, protection against exploitation, and against moral or material abandonment. 22. The State shall endeavour to secure to all women: (a) the right to equal pay for equal work; (b) the right to maternity benefits as well as ade-quate medical care in all employments; (c) the right reasonable maintenance, extending to cases of married women who have been divorced or abandoned; (d) the right to full equality in all social, educa-tional, political and legal matters; and (e) special protection against discourtesy, defama-tion, hoolganism and other forms of miscon-duct. 23. The State shall guarantee to the socially and edu-cationally backward sections of the people special care in the promotion of their educational, mate rial and cultural interests and protection against social injustice. 24. The State shall make every effort to safeguard and promote the health of the people by advancing public hygiene and by prevention of disease through sanitation, pest and vermin control, propaganda and other measures, and by ensuring widespread, efficient and free medical services throughout the State and, with particular emphasis, in its remote and backward regions. 25. The State shall combat ignorance, superstition, fanaticism, communialism, racialism, cultural backwardness and shall seek to foster brotherhood and equality among all communities under the aegis of a secular State. *PART V* *THE EXECUTIVE* *THE SADAR-I-RIYASAT* 26. (1) The Head of the State shall be designated as the Sadar-i-Riyasat. (2) The executive power of the State shall be vested in the Sadar-i-Riyasat and shall be exercised by him either directly or through officers subordinate to him in accordance with this Constitution. (3) Nothing in this Section shall: (a) be deemed to transfer to the Sadar-i--Riyasat any functions conferred by any existing law on any other authority; or (b) prevent the State legislature from confer-ring by law functions on any authority subordinate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat. 27. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be the person who for the time being is recognised by the President as such: Provided that no person shall be so recognised unless he: (a) is a permanent resident of the state; (b) is not less than twenty-five years of age; and (c) has been elected as Sadar-i-Riyasat by a majority of the total membership of the Legislative Assembly in the manner set out in the First Schedule. 28. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office during the pleasure of the President. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may, be writing under his hand addressed to the President, resign his office. (3) Subject to the foregoing provision of this section, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office for a term of five years from the date on which he enters upon his office: Provided that he shall notwithstanding the expiration of his term, continue to hold office until his successor enters upon his offlee. 29. A person who holds or has held office as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, subject to the other provisions of this Constitution, be eligible for reselection to that office. 30. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be a member of either House of Legislature and if a member of either House be elected and recognised as Sadar-i-Riyasat, he shall be deemed to have vacated his seat in the House on the date on which he enters upon his office as Sadar-I-Riyasat. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not hold any other office of profit. (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be entitled to such emoluments, allowances and privileges as are specified in the second schedule. (4) The emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be diminished during his term of office. 31. The Sadar-i-Riyasat and every person acting as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, before entering upon his office, make and subscribe in the presence of the Chief Justice of the High Court, or in his absence, the senior-most judge of the High Court available, in an oath or affirmation in the following form that is to sayed "I, A. B., do swear in the name of God that I will faithfully discharge the functions of the Sadar-I-Riyasat of Jammu and Kashmir and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect and defend the Constitution and the law and that I will devote myself to the service and well being of the people of State." 32. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be removed from his office by the President if an address by the Legis-lative Assembly supported by a majority of not less than two-thirds of its total membership is presented to the president praying for such removal on the ground of violation of the Constitution. 33. When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by reason of his death, resignation or removal or when the Sadar-i-Riyasat is unable to discharge his functions owing to absence, illness or or any other cause, the functions of the office shall, until the assumption of office by a newly elected Sadar-i-Riyasat or the resumption of duties by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, as the case may be, dis-charged by such person as the President may on the recommendation of the Council of Ministers of the State, recognise as the acting Sadar-i-Riyasat. 34. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall have the power to grant pardons, reprieves, respites or remissions of punish-ment or to suspend, remit or commute the sentence of any person convicted of any offense against any law relating to a matter to which the executive power of the State extends. *THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS* 35. (1) There shall be a council of Ministers with the Prime Minister at the head to aid and advise the Sadar-i-Riyasat in the exercise of his functions. All functions of the Sadar-i-Riyasat except those under sections 36, 38 and 92 shall be exercised by him only on the advice of the Council of Ministers. (3) The question whether any, and if so what, advice was tendered by Ministers to the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be inquired into in any court. 36. The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and the other Ministers shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the advice of The Prime Minister. 37. (1) The Council of Ministers shall be collectively responsible to the Legislative Assembly. (2) A Minister who for any period of six conse-cutive months is not a member of either House of Legislature shall upon the expiry of that period cease to be a Minister. 38. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may on the advice of the Prime Minister appoint from amongst the members of either House of Legislature such number of Deputy Ministers as may be necessary. 39. The Ministers and the [Deputy Ministers shall hold office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. 40. Before a Minister or a Deputy Minister enters upon lids office, the Sadar-i-Riyasat or, in his absence, any person authorised by him, shall administer to the Minister or the Deputy Minister to oaths of office and of secrecy according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. 41. The salaries and allowances of Ministers and Deputy Ministers shall be such as the Legislature relay from time to time by law determine and, until so determined, shall be such as are payable respectively to the Ministers and the Deputy Ministers under the Jammu and Kashmir Minister s Salaries Act, 1956 (Act VI of 1956) the Jammu and Kashmir Minister's Travelling Allowances Rules for the time being in force, and the Jaminu and Kashmir Deputy Ministers Salaries and Allowances Act. S. 2010 (Act VIII of S.2010) *THE ADVOCATE GENERAL* 42. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall appoint a person who is qualified to be appointed a Judge of the High Court, to be Advocate General for the State. (2) It shall be the duty of the Advocate General to give advice to the Government upon such legal matters and to perform such other duties of a legal character, as may from time to time be referred or assigned to him by the Govern-ment, and to discharge the functions conferred on him by or under this Constitution or any other law for the time being in force. (3) In the performance of his duties, the Advocate General shall have the right of audience in all courts in the State. (4) The Advocate General shall hold office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and receive such remuneration as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may determine. *CONDUCT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS* 43. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall make rules for the more convenient transaction of the business of the Government of the State and for the allocation among Ministers of the said business. 44. It shall be the duty of the Prime Minister (a) to communicate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat all decisions of the council of Ministers relating to the administration of the affairs of the State and proposals for legislation; (b) to furnish such information relating to the administration of the affairs of the State and proposals for legislation as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may call for; and (c) if the Sadar-i-Riyasat so rqeuires to submit for the consideration of the Council of Ministers any matter on which a decision has been taken by a Minister but which has not been considered by the Council. 45. (1) All executive action of the Government shall be expressed to be taken in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat of the Jammu and Kashmir. (2) Orders and other instruments made and executed in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat or of the Government of Jammu and Kashmir shall be authenticated in such manner as may be specified in the rules to be made be the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and the validity of an order or instrument which is so authenticated shall not be called in question on the ground that it is not an order or instrument made or executed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat or as the case may be, by the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.** *PART VI* *THE STATE LEGISLATIVE*** *COMPOSITION OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* 46. There shall be Legislature for the State which shall consist of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and two Houses be known respectively as the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council. 47. (1) The Legislative Assembly shall consist of one hundred members chosen by direct election from territorial constituencies in the State; Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, if he is of opinion that women are not adequately represented in the Assembly nominate not more than two women to be members thereof. (2) For the purposes of sub-section (I), the State shall be divided into territorial constituencies in such a manner that the ratio between the population of each constituency and the number of seats allotted to it shall, so far as practicable, be the same throughout the State. Explanation: In this sub-section, the express-ion "Population' means the population as ascertained at the last preceding census of which the relevant figures have been published. (3) Upon the completion of each census, the number, extent and boundaries of the territor-ial constituencies shall be readjusted by such authority and in such manner as the Legislature may be law determine: Provided that such readjustment shall not affect representation in the Legislative Assemb until the disolution of the then exist-ing Assembly. 48. Notwithstanding anything contained in section 47, until the area of the State under the occuptions of Pakistan ceases to so occupied and the people residing in that area elect their representatives (a) twenty-five seats in the Legislative Assembly shall remain vacant and shall not be taken into account for reckoning the total member-ship of the Assembly; and the said area shall be excluded in delimiting the territorial Constituencies Under Section 47. 49. (I) There shall be reserved in the Lagislative Assembly for the Scheduled Castes in the State a number of seats which shall bear, as nearly as may be, the same proportion to the total number of seats in the Assembly as the popu-lation of the Scheduled Castes bears to the population of the State. Explanation: In this sub-section: (a) "population" has the same meaning as in sub-section (2) of section 47; and (b) "Scheduled Castes" means the caste, races or tribes or part of, or groups within castes, races or tribes which are for the purposes of the Constitution of India deemed to be Scheduled Casts in relation to the State under the pro-visions of article 341 of that Constitution. (2) The provisions of sub-section (1) shall cease to have effect on the expiration of a period of five years from the commencement of this Constitution: Provided that such cesser shall not affect any representation in the Legislative Assembly until the dissolution of the then existing Assembly: 50. (1) The Legislative Council shall consist of thirty six members, chosen in the manner provided in this section. (2) Eleven members shall be elected by the men hers of the Legislative Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of Kashmir and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. (3) Eleven members shall be elected by the mem-bers of the Legislative Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of Jammu and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. Provided that of the members so elected, at least one shall be a resident of Doda District and at least one shall be a resident of Poonch District. (4) One member shall be elected by each of the following electorates, namely (a) the members of municipal council, town area committees and notified area com-mittees in the Province of Kashmir; (b) the members of municipal council, town area committees, and notified area committees in the Province of Jammu; (c) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged in teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the Province of Kashmir; and (d) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged in teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the Province of Jammu. (5) Two members shall be elected by each of the following electorates, namely: (a) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the Province of Kashmir as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify; and (b) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the Province of Jammu as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. (6) Six members shall be nominated by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, not more than three of whom shall be person belonging to any of the socially or economically backward classes in the State, and the others shall be persons having special knowledge or practical experi-ence in respect of matters such as literature, science, art, co-operative movement and social service. (7) Elections under sub-section (2) and (3) shall be held in accordance with the system of pro-portional representation by means of the single transferable vote. *GENERAL PROVISIONS* 51. A person shall not be qualified to be chosen to fill a seat in the Legislature unless he: (a) is a permanent resident of the State; (b) is, in the case of a seat in the Legislative Assembly, not less than twenty-five years of age, and in the case of a seat in the Legisla-tive Council, not less than thirty years of age; and (c) possesses such other qualifications as may be prescribed in that behalf by or under any law made by Legislature. 52. (1) The Legislative Assembly, unless sooner dis-solved, shall continue for five years from the date appointed for its first meeting and not longer, and the expiration of the said period of five years shall operate as a dissolution of the Assembly; Provided that the said period may, while a Proclamation of Emergency issued under arti-cle 352 of the Constitution of India is in operation, be extended by the State Legislature by law for a period not exceeding one year at a time and not extending in any case beyond a period of six months after the Proclamation has ceased to operate. (2) The Legislative Council shall not be subject to dissolution but as nearly as possible one-third of the members thereof shall retire, as soon as may be, on the expiration of every second year in accordance with the provisions made in that behalf by Legislature by law. 53. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall from time to time summon each House of the Legislature to meet at such time and place as he thinks fit, but six months shall not intervene between its last sitting in one session and the date appointed for its first sitting in the next session. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may from time to time... (a) prorogue the House or either house (b) dissolve the Legislative Assembly. 54. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may address either House of Legislature, or both Houses assembled together, and may for that purpose require the attendance of members. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may send messages to either House, whether with respect to a Bill then bending in the Legislature, or otherwise and a House to which any message is so sent shall with all convenient dispatch consider any matter required by the message to be taken into consideration. 55. (1) At the commencement of the first session after each general election to the Legislative Assembly and at the commencement of the first session of each year, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall address both Houses of Legislature assembled together and inform the Legislature of the cause of its summons. (2) Provision shall be made by the rules regulating the procedure of either House for the allot-ment of time for discussion of the matters reffered to in such address. 56. Every Minister and the Advocate General shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings, of both Houses and to speak in, and otherwise to to take part in the proceedings of, any Committee-of the Legislature of which he may be named a member, but shall not, by virtue of this section, be entitled to vote. *OFFICERS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* 57. The Legislative Assembly shall, as soon as may be, choose two members of the Assembly to be res-pectively Speaker and Deputy Speaker thereof and, so often at office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant, the Assembly shall choose another member to be Speaker, or Deputy Speaker, as the case may be. 58. A member holding office as Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the Legislative Assembly: (a) shall vacate his office if he ceases to be a member of the Assembly; (b) may at any time by writing under his hand addressed, if such member is the Speaker, to the Deputy Speaker, and if such member is the Deputy Speaker, to the Speaker, resign his office; and (c) may be removed from his office by a resolu-tion of the Assembly passed by a majority of all the then members of the Assembly; Provided that no resolution for the purpose of clause (c) shall be moved unless at least fourteen days notice has been given of the intention to move the resolution. Provided further that, whenever the Assembly is dissolved, the Speaker that not vacate his office until immediately before the first meeting of the Assembly after the dissolution. 59. (1) While the office of Speaker is vacant the duties of the office shall be performed by the Deputy Speaker or, if the office of the Deputy Speaker is also vacant, by such member of the Assembly as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may appoint for the purpose. (2) During the absence of the Speaker from any sitting of the Assembly the Deputy speaker or, if he is also absent, such person as may be determined by the rules of procedure of the Assembly, or, if no such person is present, such other person as may be determined by the Assembly, shall act as Speaker. 60. (1) At any sitting of the Legislative Assembly, while any resolution for the removal of the Speaker from his office is under consideration, the Speaker, or while any resolution for the removal of the Deputy Speaker from his office is under consideration, the Deputy Speaker shall not, though he is present, preside and the provisions of sub-section (2) of section 59 shall apply inrelation to every such sitting as they apply in relation to a sitting from which the Speaker or, as the case may be, the Deputy Speaker is absent. (2) The Speaker shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly while any resolu-tion for his removal from office is under con-sideration in the Assembly and shall, notwith-standing anything in section 67, be entitled to vote only in the first instance on such resolu-tion or on any other matter during such pro-ceedings but not in the case of an equality of votes. 61. (1) The Legislative Council shall, as soon as may be, choose two members of the Council to be respectively Chairman and Deputy Chairman thereof and, so often as the office of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman becomes vacant, the Council shall choose another member to be Chairman or Deputy Chairman, as the case may be. (2) The provisions of sections 58,59 and 60 shall apply in relation to the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council with the substitution of the words "Chairman" and "Council" for the words "Speaker" and "Assembly" respectively wherever they occur in those provisions, and with the omission of the further proviso to section 58. 62. There shall be pay to the speaker and the the Deputy Speaker of the Legislative Assembly and to the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council, such salaries and allowances as may be respectively fixed by Legislature by law and, until provi-sion in that behalf is so made, such salaries and allowances as are specified in the Third Schedule. 63. (1) Each House of the Legislature shall have a separate secretarial Staff: Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as preventing the creation of posts common to both Houses. (2) The Legislature may by law regulate the re-cruitment, and the conditions of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of each House. (3) Until provision is made by the Legislature under sub-section (2), the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, after consultation with the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case may be, make rules regulating the recruitment, and the con-ditions of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of the Assembly or the Council, and any rules so made shall have effect subject to the provisions of any law made under the said sub-section. *CONDUCT OF BUSINESS* 64. Every member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative Council shall before taking his seat, make and sub-scribe before the Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him an oath or affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. 65. Save as otherwise provided by the rules of proce-dure of the House, the quorum to constitute a meeting of the Legislative Assembly and of the Legislative Council shall be twenty and ten re-spectively. 66. A House of the Legislature shall have power to act notwithstanding any vacancy in the membership thereof, and any proceedings in the Legislature shall be valid notwithstanding that it is discovered subsequently that some person who was not entitl-ed so to do sat or voted or otherwise took part in the proceedings. 67. (1) Save as otherwise provided in this Constitu-tion, all questions at any sitting of a House of the Legislature shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting, other than the Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such. (2) The Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such, shall not vote in the first instance, but shall have and exercise a casting vote in the case of an equality of votes. *DISQUALIFICATIONS OF MEMBERS*** 68. (1) No person shall be a member of both Houses of the Legislature and provision shall be made by Legislature by law for the vacation by a person who is chooser a member of both Houses of his seat in one House or the other. (2) If a member of a House of the Legislature resigns his seat by writing under his hand addressed to tile Speaker or the Chairman, as the case may be, his s at shall thereupon become vacant. (3) If for a period of sixty days a member of a House of the Legislature is without permission of the House absent from all meetings thereof, the House may declare his seat vacant: Provided that in computing the said period of sixty days no account shall be taken of: (a) such absence caused by reason beyond his control; or (b) any period during which the House is prorogued or is adjourned for more than four consecutive days. 69. (1) A person shall be disqualified for being chosen and for being a member of the Legislative Assembly or Legislative Council: (a) if he holds any office of profit under the Government of India or the State Govern-ment within the Union of India, other than an office declared by Legislature by law not to dis-qualify its holder; (b) if he is of unsound mind and stands so declared by a competent court; (c) if he is an undischarged insolvent; (d) if he is not a permanent resident of the State or has voluntarily acquired the citizenship of a foreign State, or is under any acknowledgement of allegiance to adherence to a foreign State; (e) if he is so disqualified by or under any law made by the Legislature. (2) For the purposes of this section, a person shall not be deemed to hold an office of profit under the Government of India, the State Government or any other State Government vithin the Union of India, by reason only that he is a Minister, or a Deputy Minister. 70. (1) If it is represented to the Speaker or the Chairman that a member of the Legislative Assembly or, as the case may be, of the Legis-lative Council is disqualified for being such a member under the provisions of section 69, or was so disqualified at any time since being chosen as a member and the member does not admit that he is or was so disqualified, the question shall be referred to the High Court decision and its decision shall be final: Provided that w here the disqualification in question arises from circumstances which subsisted at the time of his being chosen as such member, no such representation as aforesaid shall be entertained: (a) unless it is made after the expiration of the period by law for presenting an elec-tion petition calling in question the election of the member; and (b) if such an election petition is pending or has been tried, unless the Speaker or Chairman as the case may be is satisfied that the question of the members' disquali-fication by reason of those circumstances has not been raised or, as the case may be, was not raised, in the proceedings on the election petition. (2) Where on a representation made under sub-section (I) the member admits that he is or w. s disqualified under the provisions of section 69, or where on a reference made under that sub-section the High Court decides that the member is or was so disqualified, his seat shall thereupon become vacant. 71. If a person sits or votes as a member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative Council before he has complied with the requirements of section 54 or when he knows that he is not quali-fied or that he is disqualified for membership thereof or that he is prohibited from so doing by the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, he shall be liable in respect of each day on which he so sits or votes to a penalty of one hundred rupees to be recovered as a debt due to the State. *POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND ITS MEMBERS* 72. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the rules and standing orders regulating the procedure of the Legislature, there shall be freedom of speech in the Legislature. (2) No member of the Legislature shall be liable to any proceedings in any court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in the Legislature or any committee thereof and no person shall be so liable in respect of the publication by or under the authority of a House of the Legislature of any report, paper, votes, or proceedings. (3) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of a House of the Legislature and- of the members and the committees of a House of the Legislature shall be such as may from time to time be defined by Legislature by law, and until so defined shall be those of the Parliament of India and of its members and committees. (4) The provisions of sub-sections (1), (2) and (3) shall apply in relation to persons who by virtue of this Constitution have the right t o speak, in and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of, a House of the Legislature or any committee thereof as they apply in relation to members of that Legislature. 73. Members of the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council shall be entitled to receive such salaries and allowances as may from time to time be determined by Legislature by law and, until provision in that respect is so made, salaries and allowances at such rates and upon such conditions as were immediately before the commencement of this Constitution applicable in the case of members of the Constituent Assembly. *LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURE* 74. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 76 and 84 with respect to Money Bills and other Finan-cial Bills, a Bill may originate in either House of the Legislature. (2) Subject to the provisions of sections 75 and 76 a Bill shall not be deemed to have been passed by the Legislature unless it has been agreed to by both Houses, either without amendment or with such amendments only as are agreed to by both Houses. (3) A Bill pending in the Legislature shall not lapse by reason of the prorogation of the House or House thereof. (4) A Bill pending in the Legislative Council which has not been passed by the Legislative Assembly shall not lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly. (5) A Bill which is pending in the Legislative Assembly or which having been passed by the Legislative Assembly, is pending in the Legi-slative Council, shall lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly 75. (1) If after a Bill has been passed by the Legisla-tive Assembly and transmitted to the Legisla-tive Council: (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or (b) more than three months elapse from the date on which the Bill is laid before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Legisl-ative Assembly may, subject to the rules regulating its procedure, pass the Bill again in the same or in any subse-quent session with or without such amendments, if any, as have been made suggested or agreed to by the Legislative Council and then transmit the Bill as so passed to the Legislative Council. (2) If after a Bill has been so palmed for the se-cond time by the legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council: (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or (b) more shall one month elapses from the date on which the Bill is laid before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Houses of the Legislature in the form in which it passed by the Legislative Assembly for the second time with such amendments, if any, as have been made or suggested by the Legislative Council and agreed to by the Legislative Assembly. (3) Nothing in this section shall apply to a Money Bill. 76. (1) A Money Bill shall not be introduced in the Legislative Council. (2) After a Money Bill has been passed by the Legislative Assembly, it shall be transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommenda-tions and the Legislative Council shall within a period of fourteen days from the date of its receipt of the Bill return the Bill to the Legis-lative Assembly with its recommendations, and the Legislative Assemble may there upon either accept or reject all or any of the recom-mendations of the Legislative Council. (3) If the Legislative Assembly accepts any of the recommendations of the Legislative Council, the Money Bil] shall deemed to have been passed by both Houses with the amend-ments recommended by the Legislative Coun-cil and accepted by the Legislative Assembly. (4) If the Legislative Assembly does not accept any of the recommendations of the Legislative Council, the Money Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by both Houses in the form which it was passed by the Legislative Assembly without any of the amendments recommended by the Legislative Council. 5. If a Money Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommendations is not returned to the Legislative Assembly within the said period of fourteen days, it shall be deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the said period in the form in which it was passed by the Legislative Assembly. 77. (1) For the purposes of the part, a Bill shall be deemed to be a Money Bill if it contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the following matters namely: (a) the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of any tax; (b) the regulation of the borrowing of money or the giving of any guarantee by the State, or the amendment of the law with respect to any financial obligations under-taken or to be undertaken by the State; (c) the custody of the Consolidated Fund or the Contingency Fund of the State, the payment of money into or the with-drawal of moneys from any such Fund: (d) the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State; (e) the declaring of any expenditure to be expenditure charges on the consolidated Fund of the State, or the increasing of the amount of any such expenditure; (f) the receipt of money on account of the Consolidated Fund of the State or the public account of the State or the custody or issue of such money; or any matter incidental to any of the matters specified in clauses (a) to (f). (2) A Bill shall not be deemed to be a Money Bill by reason only that it provides for the imposition of fines or other pecuniary penalties or for the demand or payment of fees for lice-nces or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. (3) If any question arises whether a Bill introduced in the Legislature is a Money Bill or not, the decision of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly thereon shall be final. (4) There shall be endorsed an every Money Bill when it is transmitted to the Legislative Council under section 76 and when it is pre-sented to the Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent under section 78, the certificate of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly signed by him that it is a Money Bill. 78. When a Bill has been passed by both Houses of the Legislature, it shall be presented to the Sadar--i-Riyasat and the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall declare either that he assents to the Bill or that he with-holds assent therefrom. Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, as soon as possible after the presentation to him of the Bill for assent, return the Bill if it is not a Money Bill together with a message requesting that the Houses will reconsider the Bill or any specified provisions thereof and, in particular, will consider the desira-bility of introducing any such amendments as he may recommend in his message and, when a Bill is so returned, the Houses shall reconsider the Bill accordingly, and if the Bill is passed again by the Houses with or without amendment and presented to the Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not withhold assent therefrom. *PROCEDURE IN FINANCIAL MATTERS* 79. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall in respect of every financial year cause to be laid before both Houses of the Legislature a statement of the estimated receipts and expenditure of the State for that year, in this part referred to as the "annual financial statement." (2) The estimates of expenditure embodied in the annual financial statement shall show separately (a) the sums required to meet expenditure described by this constitution as expendi-ture charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State; and (b) the sums required to meet other expendi-ture proposed to be made from the con-solidated Fund of the State; and shall distinguish expenditure on revenue account from other expenditure. (3) The following expenditure shall be expenditure charged on the consolidated fund of the State: (a) the emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and other expenditure relating to his office; (b) the salaries and allowances of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of the Legislative Assembly and of the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council; (c) debt charges for which the State is liable including interest, sinking fund charges and redemption charges. and other expenditure relating to the raising of loans and the service and redemption of debt; (d) expenditure in respect of the salaries and allowances of the Judges of the High Court; (e) any sums required to satisfy any judge-ment decree or award of any Court or arbitral tribunal; (f) any other expenditure declared by this Constitution, or by Legislature by law, to be so charged. 80. (1,) So much of the estimates as relates to expen-diture changed upon the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be submitted to the vote of the Legislative Assembly, but nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as preven-ting the discussion in the Legislature of any those estimates. (2) So much of the said estimates as relates to other expenditure shall be submitted in the form of demands for grants to the Legislative Assembly, and the Legislative Assembly shall have power to assent, or to refuse to assent, to any demand, or to assent to any demand subject to a reduction of the amount specified therein. (3) No demand for a grant shall be made except on the recommendation of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. (1) As soon as may be after the grants under section 80 have been made by the Assembly, there shall be introduced a Bill to provide for the appropriation out of the Consolidated fund of the State of all moneys required to meet: (a) the grants so made by the Assembly; and (b) the expenditure charged on the Consoli-dated Fund of the State but not exceed-ing in any case the amount shown in the statement previously laid before the Houses. (23 No amendment shall be proposed to any such Bill in either House of the Legislature which will have the effect of varying the amount or altering the destination of any grant to made or of varying the amount of any expenditure charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State, and the decision of the person presiding as to whether an amendment is inadmissible under the sub-section shall be final. (3) Subject to the provisions of sections 89 and 83, no money shall be withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund of the State except under appropriation made by law passed in accor-dance with the provisions of this section 12. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall: (a) if the amount authorised by any law made in accordance with provisions of section 81 to be expended for a particular service for the current financial year is found to be insufficient for the purposes of that year or when a need has arisen during the current financial year for supplemen-tary or additional expenditure upon some new service not contemplated in the annual financial statement for that year; or (b) if any money has been spent on any ser-vice during a financial year in excess of the amount granted for the service and for that year, cause to be laid before the Houses of the Legislature another statement showing the estimated amount of that expenditure or cause to be presented to the Legis-lative Assembly a demand for such excess, as the case may be. (2) The provisions of sections 79, 80 and 81 shall have effect in relation to any such statement and expenditure or demand and also to any law to be made authorising the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure or the grant in respect of such demand as they have effect in relation to the annual financial state-ment and the expenditure mentioned therein or to a demand for grant and the law to be 'made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the state to meet such expenditure or grant. 83. (1) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this Part, the Legislative Assem-bly shall have power: (a) to make any grant in advance in respect of the estimated expenditure for a part of any financial year pending the completion of the procedure prescribed in section 80 for the voting of such grant and the pas-sing of the law in accordance with the provisions of section 81 in relation to that expenditure; (b) to make a grant for meeting an unexpec-ted demand upon the resources of the State when on account of the magnitude or the indefinite character of the services the demand cannot be stated with the details ordinarily given in an annual financial statement; (c) to make an exceptional grant which forms no part of the current service of any financial year; and the Legislature shall have power to authorise by law the withdrawal of moneys from the Consolidated Fund of the State for the purposes for which the said grants are made. (2) The provisions of sections 80 and 81 shall have effect in relation to the making of any grant under sub-section (1) and to law to be made under that sub-section as they have effect in relation to the making of a grant with regard to any expenditure mentioned h1 the annual financial statement and the law to be made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure. 84. (1) A bill or amendment making provision for any of the matters specified in clauses (a) to (f) of sub-section (1) of section 77 shall not be introduced or moved except on the recom-mendation of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and a Bill making such provision shall not be introdu-ced in the Legislative Council: Provided that no recommendation shall be required under this sub-section for the moving of an amendment making provision for the reduction or abolition of any tax. (2) A Bill or amendment shall not be deemed to make provision for any of the matters afore-said by reason only that it provides for the. imposition of fines or other pecuniary penal-ties, or for the demand or payment of fees for licences or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. (3) A Bill which, if enacted and brought into operation. would involve expenditure from the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be passed by a House of the Legislature unless the Sadar-i-Riyasat has recommended to that House the consideration of the Bill. *PROCEDURE GENERALLY* 85. (1) A House of the Legislature may make rules for regulating, subject to the provisions of this Constitution, its procedure and the con-duct of its business. (2) Until rules are made under sub-section (1), the rules of procedure and standing orders in force immediately before the commencement of this Constituent Assembly while discharging the functions of the Legislative Assembly shall have effect in relation to each House of the Legislature subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be made therein by the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case may be. (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, after consultation with the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly and the Chairman of the Legislative Council, may make- rules as to the procedure with respect to communications between the two Houses. 86. The Legislature may, for the purpose of the timely completion of financial business, regulate by law the procedure of, and the conduct of business in. the House of the Legislature in relation to any financial matter or to any Bill for the appropria-tion of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State, and, if and so far as any provision of any law so made is inconsistent with any rule made by either House of the Legislature under sub-section (I) of section 85 or with any rule of standing order having effect in relation to either House of the Legislature under sub-section (2) of that section such provisions shall prevail. 87. Business in the Legislature shall be transacted in Urdu or in English. (1) Provided that the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council or person acting as such, as the case may be, may permit any member to address the House in Hindi, or if he cannot adequa-tely express himself in any of the aforesaid languages, to address the House in his mother-tongue. (2) The official records of the proceedings in the Legislature shall be kept in Urdu as well as in English. (3) The text of all Bills and amendments there of moved in and of all Acts passed by the Legis-lature which shall be treated as authoritative, shall be in English. 88. No discussion shall take place in the Legislature with respect to the conduct of any Judge of the Supreme Court or of the High Court in the discharge of his duties. 89. (1) The validity of any proceedings in the Legis-lature shall not be called in question -on the gro-unds of any alleged irregularity of procedure. (2) No officer or member of the Legislature in whom powers are vested by or under this Constitution for regulating procedure or the conduct of Business, or for maintaining order, in the Legislature shall be subject to the juris-diction of any court in respect of the exercise by him of those powers. 90. No Act of the Legislature and no provision in any such Act shall be invalid by reason only that some recommendation required by this Constitution was not given, if assent to that Act was given by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. Legislative power of the Sadar-i-Riyasat: 91. (1) If at any time, except when both Houses of the Legislature are in session, the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that circumstances exist which render it necessary for him to take immediate action; he may promulgate such Ordinances as the circums-tances appear to him to require. Provided that the power of making Ordinance under this Section shall extend only to those matters with respect to which the Legislature has power to make laws. (2) An Ordinance promulgated under this section shall have the same force and effect as an Act of the Legislature assented to by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, but every such Ordinance: (a) shall be laid before both the Houses of the Legislature, and shall cease to operate at the expiration of six weeks from the re-assembly of the Legislature, or if be-fore tile expiration of that period a reso-lution disapproving it is passed by the Legislative Assembly and agreed to by Legislative Council, upon the resolution being agreed to by the Legislative Coun-cil, and - (b) may be withdrawn at any time by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. Explanation: - Where the Houses of the Legislature are summoned to re-assemble on different dates the period of six weeks shall be reckoned from the latter of those dates for the purposes of this sub-section. Breakdown of Constitutional Machinery. 92. (1) If at any time the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that a situation has arisen in which the Government of the State cannot be carried on in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by Proclamation: (a) assume to himself all or any of the func-tions of the Government of the State and all or any of the powers vested in or excercisable by anybody or authority in the State; (b) make such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to the Sadar-i--Riyasat to be necessary or desirable for giving effect to the objects of the Procla-mation, including provisions for suspen-ding in whole or in part the operation of any provision of this Constitution rela-ting to any body or authority in the State: Provided that nothing in this section shall authorised die Sadar-i-Riyasat to assume to himself any of the powers vested in or exer-cisable by the High Court or to suspend in whole or in part the operation of any provi-sion of this Constitution relating to the High Court. (2) Any such Proclamation may be revoked or carried by a subsequent Proclamation. (3) Any such Proclamation whether varied under sub-section (2) or not, shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous Proclama-tion, cease to operate on the expiration of six months from the date on which it divas first Issued. (4) If the Sadar-i-Riyasat by a Proclamation under this section assumes to himself any of the powers of the legislature to make laws, any law made by him in the exercise of that power shall, subject to the terms thereof, continue to have effect until two years have elapsed from the date on which the Proclamation ceases to have effect, unless sooner repealed or re-enacted by an Act of the Legislature, and any reference in this Constitution to any Acts of or laws made by the Legislature shall be construed as including a reference to such law. No Proclamation under sub-section (1) shall be issued except with the concurrence of the President of India. (6) Every Proclamation under this section shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous Proclamation, be laid before each house of the Legisiature as soon as it is convened. *PART VII* *THE HIGH COURT* 93. (1) There shall be a High Court for the State, consisting of a Chief Justice and two or more other judges. (2) The High Court exercising jurisdiction in relation to the State Immediately before the commencement of this Constitution shall be the High Court for the State. 94. The High Court shall be a court of record and shall have all the powers of such a courts including the power to punish for contempt of itself or of the courts subordinate to it. 95. Every Judge of the High Court shall be appointed by the President by Warrant under his hand and seal after consultation with the Chief Justice of India, the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and in the case of appointment of a Judge other than the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice of the High Court and shall hold office until he attains the age of sixty years. 96. A person shall not be qualified for appointment as a Judge of the High Court unless he is a citizen of India, and: (a) has for at least ten years held a judicial office in the State or in any other part of India; or (b) has for at least ten years been an advocate of the State High Court or of any other High Court in India or of two or more such courts in succession. Explanation: - For the purposes of this Section in omputing the period during which a person has been an advocate of a High Court. there shall be included any period during which the person has held judicial office after he became an advocate. 97. Every person appointed to be a Judge of the High Court, shall. before he enters upon his office, make an subscribe before the Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him, an oath or affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. 98. (1) There shall be paid to the Judges of the High Court such salaries as are specified in the Fourth Schedule. (a) Every Judge shall be entitled to such allowan-ces and to such rights in respect of leave of absence and pension as may from time to time be determined by or under law made by the Legislature, and until so determined, to such allowances and rights as are specified in the Fourth Schedule: Provided that neither the allowances of a Judge nor his rights in respect of leave of absence or pension shall be varied to his dis-advantage after his appointment: 99. (1) A Judge of the High Court may, by writing under his hand addressed to the President, resign his office. (2) A Judge of the High Court shall not be removed from his office except by an order of the President passed after an address by each House of the Legislature supported by a majority of the total membership of that House and by a majority of not less than two- thirds of the members of that House present and voting has been presented to the president in the same session for such removal on the ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity. (3) The Legislature may by law regulate the procedure for the presentation of an address and for the investigation and proof of the misbehaviour or incapacity of a Judge under sub-section (2). 100. (1) When the office of the Chief Justice is vacant or when the Chief Justice is by reason of absence or otherwise, unable to perform the duties of his office, the duties of the office shall be performed by such one of the other Judges of the Court as the President may appoint for the purpose. (2) When any Judge of the High Court other than the Chief Justice is by reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the duties of his office or is appointed to act temporarily as Chief Justice, the President may appoint a duly qualified person to act as a Judge of the Court until the permanent Judge has resumed his duties. 101. (1) The usual places of sitting of the High Court shall be Jammu and Srinagar. (2) The Chief Justice shall, with the approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat determine the number of Judges who shall sit from time to time at Jammu and at Srinagar for such period as may be deemed necessary. (3) Whenever it appears to the Chief Justice that it is desirable that the High Courts should hold its sitting at a place other than Srinagar and Jummu, one or more Judges of the High Court as determined by him shall, with the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, sit at such place. 102. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the provisions of any law for the time being in force, the jurisdiction of and the law administered in the High Court and the respective powers of the Judges thereof in relation to the administration of justice in the court, including any power to make rules of court and to regulate the sittings of the court and of members thereof, sitting alone or in Division Courts, shall be the same as immedia-tely before the commencement of this Constitution. 103. The High Court shall have power to issue to any person or authority, including in appropriate cases any Government within the State, directions, orders or writs. including writs in the nature of habeas corpus, mandamus, prohibition, quo warranto and certiorari, or any of them. for any purpose other than those mentioned in clause (2A) of article 32 of the Constitution of India. 104. (1) The High Court shall have superintendence and control over all courts for the time being subject to its appellate or revisional jusrisdic-tion and all such courts shall be subordinate to the High Court. (I) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, the High court may: (a) call for returns from such courts, (b) make and issue general rules and prescribe forms for regulating the practice and pro-ceedings of such courts; and (c) Prescribe forms in which books, entries and accounts shall be kept by the officers of any such court. (3) The High Court may also settle tables of fees to be allowed to the sheriff and all clerks and officers of such courts and to attorneys, advo-cates and pleaders practicing therein: Provided that any rules made, forms prescrib-ed or tables settled under sub-section (2) or sub-section(3) shall not be inconsistent with the provision of any law for the time being in force, and shall require the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. 105. If the High Court is satisfied that a case pending in a court subordinate to it involves a substantial question of law as to the interpretation of this Constitution or the Constitution of India the deter-mination of which is necessary for the disposal of the case, it shall withdraw the case and may: (a) either dispose of the case itself; or (b) determine the said question of law and return the case to the court from which the case has been so withdrawn together with a copy of its judgement on such question, and the said court shall on receipt thereof proceed to dispose of the case in conformity with such judgement. 106. No person who had held office as a Judge of the High Court after the commencement of this Con-stitution shall plead or act in any court or before any authority within the State. 107. (1) The High Court shall have and use as occa-sion may require a seal bearing a device and impression of the State emblem with an exergue or label surrounding the same with the inscription: "The seal of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir'' (2) The seal shall be delivered to. and kept in the custody of, the Registrar or such other officer of the court as the Chief Justice may designate in this behalf. 108. (1) Appointments of officers and servants of the High Court shall be made by the Chief Justice of the court or such other judge or officer of the court as he may direct: Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by rule require that in such cases as may be specified in the rule no person not already attached to the court shall be appointed to any office connected with the court save after consulta-tion with the State Public Service Commis-sion. (I) Subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the conditions of service of the officers and servants of the High Court shall be such as may be prescribed by rules made by the High Court with the approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. (3) The administrative expenses of the High Court including all salaries, allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the officers and servants of the Court' shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State, and any fees or other moneys taken by the Court shall form part of that Fund. *SUBORDINATE COURTS* 109. (1) Appointment of persons to be, and the postings: and promotion off district judges in the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in con-sultation with the High Court. (2) A person not already in the service of the : State shall only be eligible to be appointed a district judge if he has been for not less than seven years an advocate or pleader and is recommended by the High Court for appointment. 110. Appointment of persons other than district judges to the judicial service of the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in accordance with rules made by him in that behalf after consulation with the Public Service Commission and with the High Court. 111. The control over district courts and courts sub-ordinate thereto including the posting and promo-tion of, and the grant of leave to, persons belong-ing to the judicial service of the State and holding any post inferior to the post of district judge shall be vested in the High Court, but nothing in this section shall be construed as taking away from any such person any right of appeal which he may have under the law regulating the conditions of his service or as authorising the High Court to deal with him otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of his service prescribed under such law. 112. In this part... (a) the expression "district judge'' includes additional district judge, assistant district judge, sessions judge, additional sessions judge and assistant sessions judge: (b) the expression "judical service" means a service consisting exclusively of persons inten-ded to fill the post of district judge, and other civil judicial posts inferior to the post of dis-trict judge. 113. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be public notification direct that the foregoing provisions of this part and any rules made thereunder shall with effect from such date as may be fixed by him in that behalf apply in relation to any class or classes of magis-trates in the State as they apply in relation to any persons appointed to the judicial service of the State Subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified in the notification. *PART VIII* *FINANCE, PROPERTY AND CONTRACTS* 114. No tax shall be levied or collected except by authority of law. 115. (1) Subject to the provisions of section 116, all revenues received by the Government, all loans raised by the Government by the issue of treasury bills, loans or ways and means advances and all moneys received by Government in repayment of loaned shall form one consolidated fund to be entitled "the Consolidated Fund of the State." (2) All other public moneys received by or on behalf of the Government shall be credited to the public account of the State. (3) No moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State shall be appropriated except in accordance with law and for the purposes and in the manner provided in this Constitution. 116. The Legislature may by law establish a Contingency Fund in the nature of an impress to be entitled "the Contingency Fund of the State" into which shall be paid from time to time such sums as may be determined by such law, and the said Fund shall be placed at the disposal of the Sadar-i--Riyasat to enable advances to be made by him out of such fund for the purposes of meeting unforeseen expenditure pending authorisation of such expendi-ture by Legislature by law under section 82 or 83. 117. The State may make any grants for any public purpose, notwithstanding that the purpose is not one with expect to which the Legislature may make. 118. The custody of the Consolidated Fund of the State and the Contingency Funds of the State, the payment of moneys into such funds, the withdrawal of moneys therefrom, the custody of public moneys other than those credited to such Fund received by or on behalf of the Government, their payment into the public account of the State and the withdrawal of moneys from such account and all other matters connected with or ancillary to matters aforesaid shall be regulated by law made by the Legislature and, until provision in that behalf is so made, shall be regulated by rules made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. 119. All moneys received by or deposited with: (a) any officer employed in connection with the affairs of the State in his capacity as such, other than revenues or public moneys raised or received by the Government; or (b) an, court within the State to the credit of any cause, matter, account or persons, shall be paid into the public account of the State. 120. Any property within the State which, if this Constitution had not come up into operation, would have accrued to the Government or any other authority hi the State by escheat or lapse, or as bona-vacantia for want of a rightful owner, shall vest in the State. 121. (1) The executive power of the State shall extend, subject to any law made by the State Legisla-ture, to the carrying on of any trade or busi-ness, and to the grant, scale, disposition or mortgage of any property held for the purposes of the State, and to the purchase or acquisi-tion of property for those purposes and to the making of contracts. (2) All property acquired for the purposes of the State shall vest in the State. 122. (1) All contracts made in the exercise of the executive power of the State shall be expressed to be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and all such contracts and all assurance of property made in the exercise of that power shall be executed on behalf of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by such persons and in such manner as he may direct or authorise. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be personally liable in respect of any contract or assurance made or executed for the purposes of this Constitution, or for the purposes any of enact-ment relating to the Government of the State heretofore in force, nor shall any person making or executing any such contract or assurance on his behalf be personally liable in respect thereof. 123. The Government may sue or be sued by the name of the State of Jammu and Kashmir and may, subject to any provisions which may be made by Act of the Legislature enacted by virtue of powers conferred by this Constitution, sue or be sued in relation to its affairs in the like cases as the State might have sued or been sued if this Constitution had not been enacted. *PART IX* *THE PUBLIC SERVICE* 124. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may by law regulate the recruitment and conditions of service of persons appointed, to public services and posts in connection with the affairs of the State: Provided that it shall be competent for the Sadar--i-Riyasat or such person as he may direct, to make rules regulating the recruitment and the conditions of services of persons appointed, to such services and posts until provisions in that behalf is made by or under an Act of the Legislature under this section, and any rules so made shall effect subject to the provisions of any such Act. 125. (1) Except expressly provided by this Constitution, every person who is a member of a civil service of the State or holds any civil post under the State hold office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. (2) Notwithstanding that a person holding a civil post under the State holds office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, any contract under which a person, not being a member of a civil service of the State, is appointed to hold such a post man, if the Sadar-i-Riyasat deems it necessary in order to secure the services of a person having special qualifications, provide for tile payment to him of compensation, if before the expiration of an agreed period that post is abolished or he is, for reasons not connected with any miscon-duct on his part required to vacate that post. 126. (1) No person who is a member of a civil service of tile State or holds a civil post under the State shall be distressed or removed by an authority subordinate to that by which he was appointed. (2) No such person as aforesaid shall be dismissed or removed or reduced in rank until he has been given a reasonable opportunity of show-ing cause against the action proposed to be taken in regard to him: Provided that this sub-section shall not apply: (a) where a person is dismissed or removed or reduced in rank on the ground of con-duct which has led to his conviction on a criminal charge; (b) where an authority empowered to dismiss or remove a person or to reduce him in rank is satisfied that for some reason, to be recorded by that authority in writing, it is not reasonably practicable to give to that person an opportunity of showing cause; or (c) where the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that in the interests of the security of the State it is not expedient to give to that person such an opportunity. (3) If any question arises whether it is reasonably practicable to give to any person an oppor-tunity of showing cause under sub-section. (4) The decision thereon of the authority empo-wered to dismiss or remove such person or to reduce him in rank, as the case may be, shall be final. 127. Until other Provisional is made in this behalf under the constitution, all the laws in force im-mediately before the commencement of this Consti-tution and applicable to any public service or any post which continues to exist after the commence-ment of this Constitution as service or post under the- State, shall continue in force so far as consistent with the provisions of this Constitu-tion. *THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION* 128. There shall be a Public Service Commission (here-inafter referred to in this Part as "the Commi-ssion" for the State. 129. (1) The Chairman and other members of the Commission shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat: Provided that as nearly as may be one-half of the members of the Commission shall be persons who at the dates of their respective appointments have held office for at least ten years under the Government. (2) A member of the Commission shall hold office of a terms of five years from the date on which he enters upon his office or until he attains the age of sixty-five years, whichever is earlier: Provided that: (a) a member of the Commission may, by writing under his hand addressed to the Sadar-i-Riyasat, resign his office (b) a member of the Commission may be removed from his office in the manner hereinafter provided. (3) A person who holds office as a member of the Commission shall on the expiration of his term of office, be ineligible for re-appointment to that office. 130. (1) Subject to the provisions of sub-section (3), the Chairman or any other member of the Commission shall only be removed from his office by order of the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the ground of misbehaviour after the High Court on reference being made to it by the Sadar-i--Riyasat, has, on inquiry held in that behalf, reported that the Chairman or such other member, as the case may be ought on any such ground to be removed. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may suspend from office the Chairman or any other member of the Commission in respect of whom a reference has been made to the High Court under sub-section (l) until the Sadar-i-Riyasat has passed orders on receipt of the report of the High Court on such reference. (3) Notwithstanding anything in sub-section (1) the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order remove from office the Chairman or any other mem-ber of the Commission if the Chairman on. such other member, as the case may be - (a) is adjudged an insolvent; or (b) engages during his term of office in any paid employment out side the duties of his office; or (c) is, in the opinion of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, unfit to continue in office by reason of infirmity of mind or body. (4) If the Chairman or any other member of the Commission is or becomes in anyway concern-ed or interested in any contract or agreement made by or on behalf of the Government of the State, the Government of India or the Government of any other State in India or participates in anyway in the profit thereof or in any benefit or emolument arising therefrom otherwise than as a member and in common with other members of an incorporated company, he shall, for the purposes of sub-section (1), be deemed to be guilty misbehavi-our. 131. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be regulations: (a) determine the number of members of the Commission and their conditions of service; and (b) make provision with respect to the num-ber of members of the staff of the Commission and - their conditions of service; Provided that the conditions of service of a member of the Commission shall not be varied to his disadvantage after his ap-pointment. 132. On ceasing to hold office the Chairman and the members of the Commission shall be ineligible for further office under the Government of the State, but a member other than the Chairman shall be eligible for appointment as a Chairman of the Commission. Explanation: - For the purposes of this sec-tion; the office of Minister or Deputy Minister shall not be deemed to be an office under the Government of the state. 133. (1) It shall be the duty of the Commissions to conduct examinations for appointment to the services of the State. (2) The Commission shall be consulted - (a) on all matters relating to methods of recruitment to civil services and for civil posts; (b) on the principles to be followed in making appointments to civil services and posts and in making promotions and transfers from one service to another and on the suitability of candidate for such appointments, promotions or transfers; (c) on all disciplinary matters affecting a person serving under the Government including memorials or petitions relating to such matters; and it shall be the duty of the Commission to advise on any matter so referred to them or on any other matter which the Sadar-i--Riyasat may refer to them: Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may make regulations specifying the matters in which either generally, or in any particular class of cases or in any particular circumstances, it shall not be necessary for the Commission to be consulted. (3) Nothing in sub-section (2) shall require the Commission to be consulted as respects the manner in which a provision may be made by the State for the reservation of appointment or posts in favour of any class of permanent residents which in the opinion of the Govern-ment is not adequately represented in the services under the State. (4) All regulations made under the proviso to sub-section (2) by the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be laid for not less than fourteen days before each House of the Legislature as soon as possible after they made, and shall be subject to such modifications, whether by way or repeal or amendment, as the Legislative Assembly may make during the session in which they are so laid. 134. If the office of the Chairman of the Commission becomes vacant or if the Chairman is by reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the duties of his office, those duties shall until some person appointed under sub-section (1) of section 129 to the vacant office has entered on the duties thereof or, as the case may be until the Chairman has resumed his duties, be performed by such one of the other members of the Commission as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may appoint for the purpose. 135. An Act made by the Legislature may provide for the exercise of additional functions by the Commission as respects the services of the State and also as respects the services of any local authority or other body corporate constituted by law or of any public institution. 136. The expenses of the Commission, including any salaries, allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the members or the staff of the Com-mission, shall be charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State. 137. It shall be the duty of the Commission to present annually to the Sadar-i-Riyasat a report as to the work done by the Commission and the Sadar-I--Riyasat, on receipt of such report, shall cause a copy thereof together with a memorandum explai-ning, as respects the cases, if any, where the advice of the Commission was not accepted, the reasons for such non-acceptance to be laid before the Legislature. *PART X* *ELECTIONS* 138. (1) The superintendence, direction and control of the preparation of the electoral rolls for, and the conduct of, the elections held under Part VI shall, be vested in an Election Commissio-ner to be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, may, for such period as he may deem necessary appoint one or more Deputy Election Commissioners to assist the Election Commissioner in the per-formance of the functions conferred by sub-section (1). (3) subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the Conditions of service of the Election Commissioner and the Deputy Election Commissioner shall be such as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. (4) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may make acts viable to the Election Commissioner such staff as may be necessary for the discharge of the functions conferred on the Election Commissioner by sub-section (1). 139. There shall be one general electoral roll for every territorial constituency for election to either House of the Legislature and no person shall be ineligible for inclusion in any such roll or claim to be inclu-ded in any special electoral roll for any such consti-tuency on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex or any of them. 140. The elections to the Legislative Assembly shall be on the basis of adult suffrage; that is to say, every person who is a permanent resident of the State and who is not less than twenty-one years of age on such date as may be fixed in that behalf by or under any law made by the Legislature and is not otherwise disqualified under this Constitution or any law made by the Legislature on the ground of non-residence, unsoundness of mind, crime or corruptor illegal practice, shall be registered as a voter at any such election. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may from time to time by law make provision with respect to all matters relating to, or in connection with elections to either House of the Legislature, including the preparation of elec-toral rolls, the delimitation of constituencies, appointment of election tribunals and all other matters necessary for securing the due constitution of the two Houses. 142. Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution: (a) the validity of any law relating to the delimita-tion of territorial constituencies for the pur-pose of electing members of the Legislative Assembly or the allotment of seats to such constituencies, made or purporting to be made under section 141, shall not be called in ques-tion in any court; (b) no election to either House of the Legislature shall be called in question except by an elec-tion petition present to such authority and in such manner as may be provided for by or under any law made by the Legislature. *PART XI* *MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS* 143. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be answerable to any court for the exercise of performance of the powers and duties of his office or for any act done or purposing to be done by him in the exercise and performance of those -powers and duties. Provided that nothing in this subjection-sec-tion shall be construed as restricting the right of any person to bring appropriate proceed-ings against the Government. (2) No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or continued against the Sadar-I--Riyasat in any court during his term of office. No process for the arrest or imprisonment of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall issue from any court during his term of office. No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be instituted during his term of office in any court in res-pect of any act done or purporting to be done by him in his personal capacity, whether be-fore or after he entered upon his office as Sadar-i-Riyasat, until the expiration of two months next after notice in writing has been delivered to the Sadar-i-Riyasat or left at his office stating the nature of the proceedings the cause of action therefor, the name, descri-ption and place of residence of the party by whom such proceedings are to be instituted and the relief which he claims. 144. The flag of the State shall be rectangular in shape and red in colour with three equidistant white vertical stripes of equal with next to the staff and a white plough in the middle with the handle facing the stripes. The ratio of the length of the flag to its width shall be 3:2. 145. The official language of the State shall be Urdu, but the English language shall, unless the Legisla-ture by law otherwise provides continue to be used for all the official purpose of the State for which it was being used immediately before the com-mencement of this Constitution. . The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, as soon as may be, after the commencement of the Constitution establish an Academy of Arts, Culture and Language, where opportunities will be afforded for the development of Art and Culture of the State and for the development of Hindi, Urdu and other regional languages of the State specified in the Sixth Schedule.** *PART XII* *AMENDMENTS OF THE CONSTITUTION* 147. An amendment of this constitution may be initia-ted only by the introduction of a Bill for the pur-pose in the Legislative Assembly and when the Bill is passed in each House by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total membership of at the House, it shall be presented to the Sadar-i-Riyasat for his assent and, upon such assent being given to the Bill, the Constitution shall stand amended in accordance with the terms of the Bill: Provided that a Bill providing for the abolition of the Legislative Council may be intro-duced in the Legislative Assembly and passed by it majority of the total membership of the Assembly and by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the members of the Assembly present and voting: Provided further that no Bill or amendment seeking to make any change in: (a) this section; (b) the provisions of the sections 3 and 5; or (c) the provisions of the constitution of India as applicable in relation to the State; shall be introduced or moved in either house -of the Legislature. From cahen.x at levels9.com Tue Dec 4 20:30:35 2007 From: cahen.x at levels9.com (xavier cahen) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:00:35 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 03-12 to 31-12-2007 Message-ID: <47556B93.3030900@levels9.com> pourinfos.org l'actualité du monde de l'art / daily Art news ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Monday 03 December 2007 to Monday, December 31, 2007 (included) ------------------------------------------------------------------- (mostly in french) @ 001 (03/12/2007) Residency: artists Action Center Art Actuel, Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35234-tit-Residence-d-artistes-Centre-d-artistes -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 002 (03/12/2007) Residency: artists, Stills, Edinburgh, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35235-tit--d-artistes-Stills-Edinburgh-Royaume -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 003 (03/12/2007) Meetings: the extraterrestrial hypothesis at John Keel, William Burroughs & Stanley Kubrick, by Pachomius Thiellement, Fresh Theorie, Foundation Ricard, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35248-tit--l-hypothese-extraterrestre-chez-John -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 004 (03/12/2007) Publication: Archee, periodic electronic 11_2007, Montreal, Canada http://pourinfos.org/art-35250-tit--Archee-periodique-electronique-11-2007- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 005 (03/12/2007) Publication: ANTHROPOLOGY, AND CONTEMPORARY ART MUSEUM What links? (ANTHROPOLOGIE, ART CONTEMPORAIN ET MUSEE Quels liens ?) Under the direction of Roger Some and Carine Schutz, Editions l'Harmattan, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35251-tit--ANTHROPOLOGIE-ART-CONTEMPORAIN-ET -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 006 (03/12/2007) Publication: Appareil et intermedialite, Under the direction of Jean-Louis Déotte, Marion Froger, Silvestra Mariniello, Editions l'Harmattan, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35252-tit--Appareil-et-intermedialite-Sous-la -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 007 (03/12/2007) Publication: Variant, ISSUE 31 - Spring 2008, Variant need your support, Glasgow, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35254-tit--Variant-ISSUE-31-Spring-2008-Variant -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 008 (03/12/2007) Publication: # 22, Artes, arte_contemporaneo_internacional , Madrid , Spain. http://pourinfos.org/art-35258-tit-Publiation-n-22-Artes- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 009 (03/12/2007) Publication: catalogue TTrioreau, la box et monograkik Editions, Bourges, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35259-tit--Lancement-du-catalogue-TTrioreau-la-box -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 010 (03/12/2007) Publication: Documents : Some artistic practices of the digital age – Collection 35 art works, Espace Gantner Editions presses du reel, Dijon, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35260-tit--Documents-Quelques-pratiques -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 011 (03/12/2007) Publication: (Sociology of art works)Sociologie des œuvres, Jean-Pierre Esquenazi, Editions Armand Collin, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35261-tit--Sociologie-des-uvres-Jean-Pierre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 012 (03/12/2007) Publication: new DVD d'Olivier Bosson, Editions Videoformes, Clermont-Ferrand, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35262-tit--nouveau-DVD-d-Olivier-Bosson-editions -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 013 (03/12/2007) Publication: Internet : Internet: an earthquake in the culture? (un seisme dans la culture ?) Marc Le Glatin, Edition de l'attribut, Toulouse, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35263-tit--Internet-un-seisme-dans-la-culture- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 014 (03/12/2007) Publication: Michael Dumontier, Marcel Dzama, nieves édition, Zurich, Switzerland. http://pourinfos.org/art-35264-tit--Michael-Dumontier-Marcel-Dzama-nieves -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 015 (03/12/2007) Publication: #39, revue ARCHITECTURES A VIVRE, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35265-tit--N-39-revue-ARCHITECTURES-A-VIVRE-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 016 (03/12/2007) Publication: Inter-action C.L.O.M. (Joël Hubaut) Philippe Boisnard, Editions le clou dans le fer, Reims, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35266-tit--Inter-action-C-L-O-M-Joel-Hubaut- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 017 (03/12/2007) Publication: Becoming a media activism on the Internet between defection and experimentation (Devenir média, l'activisme sur Internet entre défection et expérimentation), Olivier Blondeau - Laurence Allard, Editions Amsterdam, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35267-tit--Devenir-media-l-activisme-sur-Internet -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 018 (03/12/2007) Publication: Guide to the author of visual and graphic works (Guide de l'auteur d'oeuvres plastiques et graphiques), SNAPcgt, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35268-tit--Guide-de-l-auteur-d-oeuvres-plastiques-et -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 019 (03/12/2007) Publication: drifting (La derive) of Corinne Janier, Flip book d'artiste, Edition LENDROIT, Rennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35269-tit--La-derive-de-Corinne-Janier-Flip-book -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 020 (03/12/2007) Publication: The vocal cords, documentation céline duval, Poster d'Artiste, Editions LENDROIT, Rennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35270-tit--Les-cordes-vocales-la-documentation -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 021 (03/12/2007) Publication: Teleologies, Frederic Dumond, Editions de l'Attente, Bordeaux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35271-tit--Teleologies-Fredeic-Dumond-editions-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 022 (03/12/2007) Job: Internship, EUROPEAN SOUND DELTA, Association MU, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35272-tit-Emploi-Stage-EUROPEAN-SOUND-DELTA- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 023 (03/12/2007) Job: coordination - visual arts, Centre Culturel Colombier, Rennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35273-tit--coordinateur-mediateur-en-arts -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 024 (03/12/2007) Job: Internship in communication, Frac Bourgogne, Dijon, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35274-tit--Stage-en-communication-Frac-Bourgogne- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 025 (03/12/2007) Job: press relations for the Biennial of Contemporary Art "Art And Nature", Seine-Saint-Denis, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35276-tit-Offred-emploi-Charge-e-des-relations -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 026 (03/12/2007) Various: what's « la Fraternelle Grapus », Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35278-tit-Divers-Qu-est-ce-que-la-Fraternelle -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 027 (03/12/2007) Publication: The art critic between broadcast and exploration, the International Symposium Max and Iris Stern, proceedings of the symposium held at the Museum of Contemporary Art in Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35279-tit--La-critique-d-art-entre-diffusion-et -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 028 (03/12/2007) Call: fellowship offered to a young person for a cultural project related to the countries of the Mediterranean, Foundation Marc de Montalembert, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35290-tit-s-une-bourse-offerte-a-un-jeune-pour-un -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 029 (03/12/2007) Call: from the Cultural Action of the city of Pontault-Combault, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35291-tit-s-de-la-Direction-de-l-Action-Culturelle -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 030 (03/12/2007) Call: for exhibition, Universites-Univers lies, Bordeaux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35292-tit--Appel-a-projet-exposition -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 031 (03/12/2007) Call: International Poetry Ecritout 2008 - poetry free Quebec "and" lthe Francophony, Quebec, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35293-tit--Concours-international-de-poesie-Ecritout -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 032 (03/12/2007) Call: FORET/FOREST: 8th MANIFESTATION of CHAMP LIBRE, Montréal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35294-tit--FORET-FOREST-8e-MANIFESTATION -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 033 (03/12/2007) Call: ART VIDEO SCREENING, Bio Roxy's Cafe, Orebro, Sweden. http://pourinfos.org/art-35296-tit--ART-VIDEO-SCREENING-Bio-Roxy-s-Cafe- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 034 (03/12/2007) Call: Roland Barthes Prize for the photographic research, Cherbourg, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35297-tit--Prix-Roland-Barthes-pour-la-recherche -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 035 (03/12/2007) Call: for authors, Videoformes, Clermont-Ferrand, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35298-tit--appel-a-auteurs-Videoformes- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 036 (03/12/2007) Call: Exhibition of Christmas - 2007, le MAGASIN – Centre d’Art Contemporain of Grenoble, Grenoble, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35299-tit--de-Noel-2007-le-MAGASIN-Centre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 037 (03/12/2007) Call: Forest Art, Sculpure, Community of Communes du Pays de Tronçais, Cerilly, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35300-tit--Forest-Art-Sculpure-Communaute-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 038 (03/12/2007) Call: 3rd way of fairy, LABo des Fees, Crevoux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35301-tit--3eme-Parcours-des-Fees-LABo-des-Fees- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 039 (03/12/2007) Call: MONOCHROME, Incident.net, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35302-tit--MONOCHROME-Incident-net-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 040 (03/12/2007) Call: Recreacourt festival 08, Association Comme Vous Emoi, Montreuil, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35303-tit--festival-Recreacourt-08-Association -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 041 (03/12/2007) Call: Biennial of the Strange, Ellezelles, Belgium. http://pourinfos.org/art-35304-tit--biennale-de-l-Etrange-Ellezelles- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 042 (03/12/2007) Call: looking for young artists using photography studio, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35305-tit-Appel-a-participaton-recherche-de-jeunes -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 043 (03/12/2007) Call: submissions to its forthcoming show, The Whole World, curated by Ian White,tank.tv, London, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35306-tit-Appel-a-prticipation-submissions-to-its -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 044 (03/12/2007) Call: PROJET POSTAL ART "CHILDREN ABUSE", Valenciennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35307-tit--PROJET-ART-POSTAL-L-ENFANCE-MAILARTEE- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 045 (04/12/2007) Meetings: extensions #10 dynamiques d’ecriture, Tuesday, December 4, 2007, Ensi, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35243-tit--extensions-10-dynamiques-d-ecriture- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 046 (04/12/2007) Meeting: "Stéphane Berard, Portrait of the Artist as Worker" A lecture by Johan Defer, Tuesday, December 4, 2007, Espace arts plastiques de Venissieux, Venissieux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35247-tit--Stephane-Berard-portrait-de-l-artiste -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 047 (04/12/2007) Call: 2008 New York Underground Film Festival, New York, Usa. http://pourinfos.org/art-35309-tit--2008-New-York-Underground-Film-Festival- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 048 (05/12/2007) Meetings : lecture Speculums and speculation, Société Réaliste, Beaux-Arts de Bordeaux, Wednesday, December 5, 2007, Bordeaux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35239-tit--conference-Speculums-et-speculations- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 049 (05/12/2007) Meetings: Alain Bublex, December 5, 2007, Observatoire des nouveaux médias, Ensad, Paris. http://pourinfos.org/art-35240-tit--Alain-Bublex-mercredi-5-decembre-2007- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 050 (05/12/2007) Meetings: Art, Technology, Culture, Alphabetville # Zinc-Ecm # Leonardo/Olats, on 5 and 6 December 2007, Friche Belle de Mai, Marseille. http://pourinfos.org/art-35241-tit-encontres-Art-Technologie-Culture- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 051 (05/12/2007) Meetings: lecture "words to see "(des mots pour voir), Marie-Claire SELLIER, December 5, 2007, Ecole d'Art de Beauvaisis, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35277-tit--conference-des-mots-pour-voir- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 052 (05/12/2007) Meetings: Portradium at la Java, Wednesday, December 5, 2007, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35282-tit--Portradium-a-la-Java-Mercredi-5 -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 053 (05/12/2007) Various: The House of Ironworkers (La Maison des métallos), cultural property of the City of Paris, is open from November 7, 2007, Paris, France http://pourinfos.org/art-35285-tit-Divers-La-Maison-des-metallos- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 054 (06/12/2007) Meetings: The intimate collection: video art, digital art and Net art ("L'intime collection : art video, art numérique et Net art) Thursday, December 6, 2007, Bnf, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35245-tit--L-intime-collection-art-video-art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 055 (07/12/2007) Meetings: Anselm Kiefer, Friday, December 7, 2007, Auditorium du Louvre, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35178-tit--Anselm-Kiefer-Vendredi-7-decembre-2007- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 056 (07/12/2007) Meetings: Le Louvre invite Anselm Kiefer, in Faces faces / "Frontiers" The art does not disappear totaly, Friday, December 7, 2007, Auditorium du Louvre, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35242-tit--Le-Louvre-invite-Anselm-Kiefer-Faces-a -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 057 (07/12/2007) Publication: Genealogies (Généalogies), Martine Rassineux et François Da Ros, Les Editions Anakatabase, 7-8-9 December 2007,, Salon page 10, Espace Charenton, Paris, Fance. http://pourinfos.org/art-35255-tit-Publiation-Genealogies-Martine-Rassineux -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 058 (08/12/2007) Meeting: Poptronics on stage theater Paris-Villette, Saturday, December 8, 2007, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35246-tit--Poptronics-sur-la-scene-du-theatre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 059 (08/12/2007) Publication: Lisieres #18 Pascal Dusapin, La revue d'art Lisieres rejoint r-diffusion, Strasbourg, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35253-tit--Lisieres-18-Pascal-Dusapin-La-revue -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 060 (10/12/2007) Meetings: radical philosophy conference - art and immaterial labour, radical philosophy conference - art and immaterial labour, January 19, 2008, The Auditorium, Tate Britain, London, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35238-tit--radical-philosophy-conference-art-and -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 061 (11/12/2007) Meeting: Cool conference of Marc Dachy, December 11, 2007, Museum Calbet et Hypertexte, Grisolles,France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35237-tit--Cool-conference-de-Marc-Dachy-Mardi-11 -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 062 (12/12/2007) Meetings: Contemporary Typography, lecture of Hans-Jürg Hunziker, the concept of the Character typographical of Siemens, Wednesday, December 12, 2007, Department of Fine Arts, University of Paris 8, Saint-Denis, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35280-tit--Typographie-contemporaine-Conference-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 063 (12/12/2007) Various: Fred Forest, Acquisition of a work online, Cartier Foundation for Contemporary Ar, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35284-tit-Divers-Fred-Forest-Aquisition-d-une-oeuvre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 064 (12/12/2007) Various: share space in Toulouse, Toulouse, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35287-tit-Divers-partage-de-local-sur-Toulouse- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 065 (13/12/2007) Publication: 4 AM, (natures) 06.07, La Marechalerie - Centre d'art contemporain, Ecole Nationale superieure d'Architecture, Versailles, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35256-tit--4-AM-natures-06-07-La-Marechalerie- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 066 (13/12/2007) Meetings: RELECTURES festival, l'espace Khiasma, Mairie des Lilas, Les Lilas, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35283-tit--festival-RELECTURES-l-espace-Khiasma- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 067 (15/12/2007) Meetings: Maflohe Passedouet, disorders of perception, sensory illusions , Saturday, December 15, 2007, Maison populaire, Montreuil, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35244-tit--Maflohe-Passedouet-Troubles-de-la -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 068 (15/12/2007) Publication: #16, Miami Design Distric, Erasing the edge , Uovo, an independent voice for contemporary art, Torino, Italy. http://pourinfos.org/art-35249-tit--16-Miami-Design-Distric-Erasing-the -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 069 (15/12/2007) Publication: Los flamencos no comen #12 soon, Sumene, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35281-tit--Los-flamencos-no-comen-n-12-paraitra-dans -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 070 (15/12/2007) Call: International Exhibition of painting, Château des Réaux, Chouze sur Loire, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35295-tit--Internationale-de-Peinture-Chateau-des -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 071 (19/12/2007) Various: winners of the 15th edition of Price Videre, Quebec, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35286-tit-Divers-laureats-de-la-15e-edition-des-Prix -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 072 (20/12/2007) Publication: # 9, revue Art Vif, Nice, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35257-tit-Publiation-numero-9-revue-Art-Vif-Nice- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 073 (20/12/2007) Various: Call for subscription 2007, Association Manifestement Peint Vite, Nantes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35289-tit-Divers-Appel-a-souscription-2007- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 074 (20/12/2007) Call: Symposium : The Futures of Space Exploration - An Arts and Humanities, Less Remote, Glasgow, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35308-tit--Symposium-The-Futures-of-Space -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 075 (20/12/2007) Call: Turbulence Commission: "The ShiftSpace Commissions Program", Turbulence, New York, Usa. http://pourinfos.org/art-35310-tit--Turbulence-Commission-The-ShiftSpace -- XAVIER CAHEN -------------- cahen.x at levels9.com Paris France http://www.levels9.com _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From logos.theword at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 11:25:50 2007 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:25:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Shreds and Patches - A Solo Shakespearean Performance In-Reply-To: <33bc2ee60712042152l6d14fd6eg97af43b99c5ae7df@mail.gmail.com> References: <33bc2ee60712042152l6d14fd6eg97af43b99c5ae7df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60712042155p248c924eh8c39dc94509a420@mail.gmail.com> A narrator who readers letters from nowhere... voices that speak from everywhere and everywhen... stories from other times, other places... stories that lie deep inside us. do we not have eyes?... what light?... once more, once more... that undiscovered country... to whom should I complain?... stretched metre of an antique song... let be Logos Theatre (In association with easy library) presents *Shreds and Patches* A solo theatre performance by Arka Mukhopadhyay Based on the plays and sonnets of William Shakespeare. A monologue on our lives and times On: Friday, December 14th, 6:30 PM At: Easy Library, 972 H, 1st A Main, ST Bed Layout, 4th Block, Koramangala (near Maharaja Restaurant) (Phone: 41102231,25501499) The event is non-ticketed, but prior registration is required The duration of the performance is one hour This performance tries to look at Shakespeare from the viewpoint of the storytellers of old, communicating the tales through voice, space, physicality and the imagination. Yet it is also a tale of our days – of our darkness and our quest to find meaning. Using fragments from Shakespeare, it looks at our identity, at memory and loss, at love and redemption First performed in April for Shakespeare's birth and death anniversary, the play has since been performed in Pune and Hyderabad. -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is 't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Dec 6 01:10:56 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 01:10:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sudhanva Deshpande's Second Response to my Mail Message-ID: Dear All, Here is Sudhanva Deshpande's response to my second mail addressed to him on the Subject of Nandigram. In the interests of a fail debate, I thought it should be posted here for everyone to read. regards Shuddha ------------------------------------------------------------------- December 5, 2007 Dear Shuddhabrata, I should have written earlier, but I have been travelling (performing, actually) in the north-east and had no access to internet and email for about a fortnight. I saw your response to my letter upon return. Your eloquence remains overwhelming as ever, as does your capacity for ctrl+c and ctrl+v jobs. So, again, my response must remain short. THE NOTICE(S). The death sentence analogy, though attractive, is unfortunately flawed. A death sentence is pronounced by a judge at the end of a trial, not the beginning. In any case, the Chief Minister said, more than once, said the notice carried no legal weight and that land would not be acquired in Nandigram. More: he put a moratorium on all SEZ projects in the state till the changes in the SEZ Act, which the Left is fighting for, are clinched in Parliament. Ordinarily, when such an assurance is wrested, those who struggle celebrate it as a victory, and work to consolidate the gains. Given your relentless struggle for the dispossessed, I am sure you were side by side with Medha Patkar the last time she was on hunger strike at Jantar Mantar, in April 2006. Perhaps you too sat on hunger strike in solidarity, like many others. At the very least, I am sure you expressed your solidarity with the cause through your art, as some of us did. At any rate, you will recall that Medha Patkar eventually withdrew her hunger strike for a much paltrier assurance – that the Prime Minister would look into the issue. Here’s what she said after breaking her fast: “The State had not responded favourably to a non-violent people’s movement. We urge the Prime Minister to invoke the authority vested in him by the Supreme Court, the Constitution and his own commitment to development with a human face. He must not bow down to the fascist and communal forces and must intervene to ensure that the poor affected by the dam’s construction get justice.” So the fast was withdrawn with an appeal to the PM to live up to his own commitment. That is all. No concrete gain. Not even a verbal assurance. In Nandigram, on the other hand, after what was really a substantial victory, a siege was put in place, roads dug up, elected bodies immobilized, administration paralysed, and CPI (M) sympathizers forcibly evicted. Why? Because Nandigram, like Keshpur a few years ago, was an attempt to do by force what has been impossible to do democratically, through the ballot: defeat the CPI (M) and the Left Front. THE LISTS. The lists you mention are indeed at Sanhati, but I wish you’d bother to read what you claim to be responding to a little more carefully. I thought I was quite clear that after the initial lists in March, no fresh lists have been made public, nor have the older lists been updated. As I said, neither the CPI (M) nor the district administration had access to the area for seven and a half months, and this ought to have been the perfect time to put together a complete and authentic list of the dead and the missing. Complete, because even a comprehensive village-to-village survey of the entire area would not take seven and a half months for a small team of dedicated activists, of which surely there is no dearth; and authentic, because the information would have come directly from the community, untampered by the state you so despise and are working so hard at helping wither away. That this has not happened ought to give us pause. That the one list submitted to the High Court turned out to be fraud ought to give us pause. That the one instance where a BUPC-led crowd excavated a child’s body and that body turned out to be, after forensic tests, a burnt PVC pipe, ought to give us pause. That the one body to come out of the river was that of a lynched policeman, before the March firing, ought to give us pause. Ganashakti is of course full of lies, so here’s what the Ananda Bazar Patrika recently reported. Quoting the BUPC, the paper put the total number of dead, from January to now, at 25. Add to this 27 CPI (M) supporters. Since my math is weak, I leave the totaling to you. But the more interesting detail is here: the figure of 25 breaks up into 13 on March 14 and 12 otherwise, from January to now. Funny, isn’t it? The official toll for the March firing is 14, while the BUPC claims 13. Want to know why? Because the 14th person did not belong to the area, and claiming him gives credence to the CPI (M) claim that armed outsiders were present in Nandigram even before the March firing, let alone later. The National Human Rights Commission recently toured the area. The Minorities Commission toured the area. The Governor toured the area. Medha Patkar toured the area. The CRPF maintains its presence. If the possible location of mass graves is known, how come none of them has been taken to any of those locations? As an aside, let me note that for someone so passionately opposed to a strong state, your faith in the CBI and other instruments of the state, including the judiciary which has a glorious record of protecting the working people, is touching. In any case, now that the Governor acknowledges that peace is returning, and even Medha Patkar admits that barring people in one camp (less than 100, according to today’s papers), everyone else has gone back home, maybe a team can now be put together to count the dead and the missing? Maybe people in Kolkata are preoccupied fighting a fascist government, so why don’t you lead a team from Delhi? Compile a list of the missing, and file a habeas corpus petition in the High Court. Why don’t you? Why doesn’t someone? Anyone? THE LEFT. It is interesting, isn’t it, that the same left which you screech stifles critique and dissent, has actually produced a rich range of critical discourse around the Singur and Nandigram issues. The contributors to the ongoing debate have included, to name just a few, Prabhat Patnaik, Malini Bhattacharya, Jayati Ghosh, Badri Raina, Kamal Mitra Chenoy, and even, would you believe it, Vijay Prashad and myself. The website pragoti.org, in fact, routinely features these interventions. I am sure that several “good schools of thought” contend on Sanhati and Kafila, just that I am yet to find the evidence. I am sure it exists though, waiting to be excavated. While we are on debate, I would add one more point – that the Nandigram debate has confused two points, that are nonetheless interrelated. One, the question of industrial policy, which is a debate in which members of and sympathizers of the left parties can be found on both sides of the debate. Second, the question of the right of the dispossessed to return, the question of opposing the BUPC siege – in a word, the ethics of resistance and opposition. You and others on Kafila and Sanhati are unwilling to separate the two analytically or politically. You assume that the defence of the return of the dispossessed is the same as a defence of every policy decision of the West Bengal government. This is obfuscatory, though of course I fully understand your need to create obfuscation. THE LINE. I found your invitation to me to cross the line and come over to your side absolutely fascinating. I have of course a hundred good reasons to decline your invitation. But the cause for my fascination is your logic: that either I cross the line, or be prepared for “only more abuse from the likes of me.” This is reminiscent of the logic of the Hindu Right: conform, or be pulverized. Not a strategy designed to win misguided minds, you will agree. Ordinarily, when one tries to win converts, one engages them in dialogue and debate. Which, I have to say, I’d have happily joined, in the belief that it would prove to be mutually enriching. We could have read Marx together maybe, and understood what he meant by the state withering away; or we could have read Lenin on the agrarian question, in particular his critique of the Narodniks; or, if Marxist classics are too dreary for you, we could have speculated on the reasons for the failure of a viable non-CPI (M) left to emerge, in spite of numerous appeals over the decades, from Kanu Sanyal to Mohan Ram to Aditya Nigam; or, if questions of programmatic understanding and strategy and tactics bore you, I could have shared with you my recent experience in the Tripura countryside, which is quite a contrast to the unremitting poverty one sees in the countryside in Assam or in Meghalaya, the other two states I went to. But as you candidly admit, you are drawn to abuse, not discussion. Sorry boss, I withdraw. Match forfeited. The field is all yours. Cheers, Sudhanva PS: I noticed that you chose to write in what you call “bald” rather than purple prose the last time. Since one is unlikely to get anything other than abuse from you, you may as well give us purple prose. You will at least become entertaining. From vivek at sarai.net Thu Dec 6 08:22:13 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:22:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Friday 7 December -- General Audience Highlights Message-ID: <79705fb50712051852k1a7d117co33bf6b542d9aa294@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Highlights for a general audience tomorrow (Friday 7 December) include the premiere of Pankaj Rishi Kumar's feature-length documentary on women boxers, presentations by Nancy Adajania and Debkamal Ganguly on their current projects, Madhavi Tangella and Shivam Vij on ragging (Madhavi's short documentary, partly inspired by Shivam Vij's seminal Independent Fellowship project) and of course the final open-ended discussion, which in the past has always been very vigorous. Read on for details! And scroll to for detailed abstracts of the entire day's lineup. *Highlights for a General Audience -- Friday December 7, 2007* (LTG Auditorium, Mandi House) 7.00 – 8.30 Punches Ponytails Ringtones: Women Boxers in India A film by Pankaj Rishi Kumar (82 mins) Introduced by Shuddhabrata Sengupta "This is a journey into the science of boxing as practiced by 2 Indian women. From Dec'04 to May'07, I shot with them as they tried to understand their bodies, their undying love for the sport and their constant struggle to realize their dreams. The film unfolds their story." Pankaj Rishi Kumar (kumartalkies at yahoo.com) has been making making documentary films for the last 11 years. His best known films include Kumar Talkies. He showed the first rushes from his Independent Fellowship project on women boxers at the 2005 workshop. 11.00 – 12.15 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Side Effects: Collaborations and Conversations Between Independent Fellows. A documentary film on ragging—Listen, Little Man (28 mins)-- by Madhavi Tangella; discussion and commentary by Shivam Vij, who studied ragging for his Sarai-CSDS Fellowship. Introduced and moderated by Iram Ghufran Madhavi Tangella (manzilechar @yahoo.com) worked on Sagar Cinema, a "poor man's multiplex" for her Sarai Independent Fellowship. She is currently a film student at SRFTI, Kolkata. Shivam Vij (mail @shivamvij.com) is a journalist, blogger, and runs the website stopragging.org . His research on the nature of ragging in hostels for the Independent Fellowship in 2005 led him to being appointed as a consultant to the R.K. Raghavan committee set up by the Supreme Court to recommend measures to curb ragging. His journalistic interests include caste, social mobility, internet censorship, and online communities. 1.45 pm – 3.45 pm Special Presentation: The SARAI-CSDS Associate Fellowships Chair: Monica Narula [Monica Narula (monica @sarai.net) is a media practitioner with a background in filmmaking and English Literature. She is one the co-initiators of Sarai and one of the editors of the Sarai Reader series. She is part of the Raqs Media Collective. She coordinates the media practice projects at Sarai.] Nancy Adajania: A New Journal for the Arts: Prototype Issue, 2007 Although there have been exciting recent developments in the world of Indian art, there is a strong sense that much of it has been happening in the dark, without enough open discussion made widely available to the public. Hoskote and Adajania argue that in order for art to have significance and value beyond a point, it needs to be made in the context of lively discussion and critical debate. Modern India has had a rich history of such critical initiatives, but in the current context there are very few platforms for such engagement; those that do exist confine themselves largely to reporting on events, or more often, to sales figures and scandals, focusing on the life of the studio, the solitary creator, and of economic institutions such as the gallery and the auction house. Both senior art critics in their own right, Hoskote and Adajania propose to make a journal that focuses on actually mobilising and creating a new context for the production of art. Rather than being a public relations exercise for art in India, the journal would be a colloquium across disciplines, regions, traditions and intellectual lineages. It would include, among other forms of writing, analytical essays, tactical accounts, select reviews, and polemical texts. The journal would be interested in developing a perspective of what the proposal calls "a nuanced critical regionalism", which would reject both the "neo-tribalism" of an inward-looking isolationism, as well as an uncritical globalism that lacks anchorage in a specific cultural context. Last but not least, the journal would seek and institute collaborative ventures between artists and public-sphere or civil-society activists. Nancy Adajania (nancyadajania71 at yahoo.co.uk) is a well-known cultural theorist, art critic and independent curator. She is developing this project for the Associate Fellowship with Ranjit Hoskote. Debkamal Ganguly: An Imaginative Text Based on Contemporary Travel Through the "Forests" Described in Bibhuthibhushan's Memoirs [note showing of complete video by Debkamal Ganguly at 4.30 on previous day, Thursday December 6. On the 7th, Ganguly will show excerpts from the video, discuss its making and answer questions.] Sarai generally focusses on urban spaces and the processes of urbanisation. However, a very crucial emerging question in contemporary India is, how are "rural" and forest spaces being transformed in the current context, and what is the relationship of this process to the development of cities? One could look at the question only in terms of contemporary transformations, but another approach would also situate it historically, in relation to accounts of what these non-urban areas used to look like. The project looks precisely at this question, in the context of Eastern India. Debkamal Ganguly is interested in how the idea of "nature" has developed and has been changed by visitors from the city, over several decades, including himself. He seeks to understand "how an otherwise 'underdeveloped' marginalized geographical/cultural space in the immediate west of the Gangetic plains has been entangled in multilayered relationship with the urban consciousness and artistic creativity of Kolkata." 4.00 – 5.30 pm Towards a Future for Independent Research: Interactive Open Discussion All participants. *Complete Abstracts for the Day* Fri Dec 7 Venue: LTG Auditorium, Mandi House 10.00 – 11.00 Proofreading: Identity and Publishing Chair: Mahmood Farooqui Vijay Kumar Pandey Meerut ka Prakasan Udyog (The Publishing Industry in Meerut) The publication industry of Meerut is almost 200 years old. During this period the industry has evolved with time and flourished. The present turnover of the industry is nearly Rs. 200 crore per annum and provides employment to approximately one lakh people. The study aims at identifying the factors contributing to the rapid growth and evolution of this industry in Meerut during past 200 years as well as the problems and challenges before it. It will also look into how the industry has changed with time. Vijay Kumar Pandey (vijaykharsh @yahoo.co.in) has been a journalist for the last five years. He is currently with Amar Ujala. Yoginder Sikand & Naseemur Rahman Islamic Publishing Houses in Delhi This research project focuses on the Muslim publishing industry in Delhi. It examines various aspects of this industry, including content of publications and linkages between authors, publishers and consumers of the literature produced by these publishing houses. It also looks at how the Muslim publishing industry is responding to the various challenges that Muslims in India today see themselves faced with. Naseem ur Rahman (majidee @yahoo.com) is a Ph.D. student at the Jamia Millia Islamia and is presently working with the Markazi Maktaba Islami, a leading Muslim publishing house in Delhi; and Yoginder Sikand, Professor at the Centre for Jawaharlal Nehru Studies, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi. 11.00 – 12.15 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Side Effects: Collaborations and Conversations Between Independent Fellows. A documentary film on ragging—Listen, Little Man (28 mins)-- by Madhavi Tangella; discussion and commentary by Shivam Vij, who studied ragging for his Sarai-CSDS Fellowship. Introduced and moderated by Iram Ghufran Madhavi Tangella (manzilechar @yahoo.com) worked on Sagar Cinema, a "poor man's multiplex" for her Sarai Independent Fellowship. She is currently a film student at SRFTI, Kolkata. Shivam Vij (mail @shivamvij.com) is a journalist, blogger, and runs the website stopragging.org . His research on the nature of ragging in hostels for the Independent Fellowship in 2005 led him to being appointed as a consultant to the R.K. Raghavan committee set up by the Supreme Court to recommend measures to curb ragging. His journalistic interests include caste, social mobility, internet censorship, and online communities. 11.15 – 12.15 Maps for Lost Cities Chair: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Surojit Sen The Displacement of Prostitutes: A Tale of Two Cities in Two Centuries This paper focuses on a satirical text Bodmaes Jobdo (Wicked Punished) by Prankrishna Dutta in 1869 on the aftermath of 1868 The Contagious Diseases Act XIV. Which the British enforced in April 1869 in order to control flesh trade and prevent the brothel-going soldiers from contracting venereal diseases. The Act made it mandatory for the prostitutes to register their names and undergo medical examination and treatment ( if necessary ). While the police used the legislation as a ploy to harass the prostitutes, their clients also felt axed by the Act. Things came to such a pass that some prostitutes brought the matter to the attention Viceroy Lord Mayo and his wife through a letter (19 July, 1869 ) most probably written by someone on their behalf. The chaotic situation forced a section of prostitutes to leave the Sonagachi red light area of Calcutta for Chandannagar town, then under French rule, and throng the brothel that had existed there since the 1770s. This 200 year old settlement was demolished by some promoters bent on using the land as real estate. The prostitutes living there couldn't resist the onslaught; nor did any organization come to their rescue. I view the event from the standpoint of 'rights' and relate it to the recently proposed amendment to the existing ITPA Act ( 1987 ). Which tends to treat prostitution as criminal offence even as it has not been declared illegal. Without making any provision for their rehabilitation or alternative livelihood, this official move I argue, is going to take away the little space that the 'fallen' women have and marginalize them further. Surojit Sen (surojit369 @yahoo.co.in) does research for documentary films, writes book reviews, short prose pieces on literature and scripts for telefilms (in Bengali). He renders editorial service and is now working on his first Bengali novel named City Edition. Mohit K. Ray Heritage Ponds of Kolkata: A Contemporary History Kolkata is a city of ponds. Job Charnok, the first well-known British merchant, set up his office by the side of a pond called Lal Dighi, which still exists to remind of this city's colonial past. There are many ponds like this with rich historical linkages. Many streets and places of Kolkata are named after ponds. Even after the onslaught of the real estate sector, the city has more than 3500 ponds. The significance of these urban waterbodies as water resources is being appreciated now as never before. These ponds form a part of the cultural history of the city. Once, it was the place where community people met during bathing; Bengali literature has so many narratives about the ghats of these ponds. The fields by the side of some ponds provide space to hold fairs. However, there is still no proper documentation of such an important city heritage. This study will add to the urban cultural history where the city ponds are not mere past heroes, but active agents of a thriving present. Mohit Ray (mrsg @vsnl.com), the principal researcher, is an environmental professional who has a PhD in Chemical Engineering and works for environmental rights. 12.30 – 1.30 Rethinking the Social Chair: Vivek Narayanan Santana Issar and Aditi Saraf Rethinking Animal Activism in an Urban Context Human-animal relationships have been historically constituted in complex and intimate ways along the economic, the affective, the cultural and ritual, and the metaphoric. As these relationships have receded into an irretrievable past, it has been suggested that animals have been reconfigured in the urban imagination; as household pets, as objects of wonder in zoos and circuses, and as (Kentucky or not) fried chicken. Our question is - does this driving of a wedge between human lives and those of animals inform dominant notions of 'animal welfare'? We study the relationship between the theory of the human-animal interaction in a post-industrial urban context, and the practices of animal rescue and welfare, in order to understand how, and to what extent, each is shaped by the other. All this in the particular context of our very own urban jungle – Delhi. Both Santana Issar (santanaissar @gmail.com) and Aditi Saraf (aditisrf @gmail.com) are graduates of St Stephen's College. Santana is a filmmaker, Aditi works as a research associate at the National Knowledge Commission. Arnab Chatterjee Beyond Private and Public: New Perspectives on Personal and Personalist Social Work In the first part of my presentation ( in the final version of the paper too) I shall dwell on the importance of the public/private divide in modern social theory and ask, is the public/private divide the main unresolved dilemma that haunts the sign of our own times ? How does the personal interrupt and contaminate the above binary and wherefrom our engagement could temporarily begin? An impersonal public sphere, threatened by the deceptive nature of the personal, was founded to ground political modernity and was extended to cover such remote questions of personal charity which –some like Hegel sought to replace by state related public assistance or welfare. This normalizing restraint was energized even at the level of speech, but through the instance of personal attacks, the repressed narrative of the personal seemed to recur at the cost of our unease—a political pornography of sorts. An excavation informed us--behind the masked ordeal of innocent impersonality, there lurks the obscene narratives of manipulation, lying, backstabbing, blackmailing, fraud, betrayal, malice by which persons govern each other. Now, all proposed resolutions, located within the impasse, have they worked? I discuss the Gandhian attempt and discuss the dictatorial desire. The failure to integrate the public and the private until it vanishes in the terrorized unity of the person/al -- inaugurates—in a sense-- and urges us to recover the suppressed history of the personal and subsequently a theory of the personal with its roots in the German version of personalism. Finally, does the category personal, through the sieve of personalist social work, solve the public/private problem posed in the beginning, or compound the problem further? How, despite the personalist indeterminacy and irreducibility of the person, a personalist ethics could be found will be addressed in this section; I'll spend a considerable five minutes on the above and end by reflecting on my most recent work not covered in SARAI postings. Arnab Chatterjee (apnawritings @yahoo.co.in) is Doctoral Fellow at the department of Philosophy, Jadavpur University, Kolkata and on the visiting faculty of Ethics and Human Values at the Bengal Institute of Technology, Kolkata. 1.45 pm – 3.45 pm Special Presentation: The SARAI-CSDS Associate Fellowships Chair: Monica Narula [Monica Narula (monica @sarai.net) is a media practitioner with a background in filmmaking and English Literature. She is one the co-initiators of Sarai and one of the editors of the Sarai Reader series. She is part of the Raqs Media Collective. She coordinates the media practice projects at Sarai.] Nancy Adajania: A New Journal for the Arts: Prototype Issue, 2007 Although there have been exciting recent developments in the world of Indian art, there is a strong sense that much of it has been happening in the dark, without enough open discussion made widely available to the public. Hoskote and Adajania argue that in order for art to have significance and value beyond a point, it needs to be made in the context of lively discussion and critical debate. Modern India has had a rich history of such critical initiatives, but in the current context there are very few platforms for such engagement; those that do exist confine themselves largely to reporting on events, or more often, to sales figures and scandals, focusing on the life of the studio, the solitary creator, and of economic institutions such as the gallery and the auction house. Both senior art critics in their own right, Hoskote and Adajania propose to make a journal that focuses on actually mobilising and creating a new context for the production of art. Rather than being a public relations exercise for art in India, the journal would be a colloquium across disciplines, regions, traditions and intellectual lineages. It would include, among other forms of writing, analytical essays, tactical accounts, select reviews, and polemical texts. The journal would be interested in developing a perspective of what the proposal calls "a nuanced critical regionalism", which would reject both the "neo-tribalism" of an inward-looking isolationism, as well as an uncritical globalism that lacks anchorage in a specific cultural context. Last but not least, the journal would seek and institute collaborative ventures between artists and public-sphere or civil-society activists. Nancy Adajania (nancyadajania71 at yahoo.co.uk) is a well-known cultural theorist, art critic and independent curator. She is developing this project for the Associate Fellowship with Ranjit Hoskote. Debkamal Ganguly: An Imaginative Text Based on Contemporary Travel Through the "Forests" Described in Bibhuthibhushan's Memoirs [note showing of complete video by Debkamal Ganguly at 4.30 on previous day, Thursday December 6. On the 7th, Ganguly will show excerpts from the video, discuss its making and answer questions.] Sarai generally focusses on urban spaces and the processes of urbanisation. However, a very crucial emerging question in contemporary India is, how are "rural" and forest spaces being transformed in the current context, and what is the relationship of this process to the development of cities? One could look at the question only in terms of contemporary transformations, but another approach would also situate it historically, in relation to accounts of what these non-urban areas used to look like. The project looks precisely at this question, in the context of Eastern India. Debkamal Ganguly is interested in how the idea of "nature" has developed and has been changed by visitors from the city, over several decades, including himself. He seeks to understand "how an otherwise 'underdeveloped' marginalized geographical/cultural space in the immediate west of the Gangetic plains has been entangled in multilayered relationship with the urban consciousness and artistic creativity of Kolkata." 4.00 – 5.30 pm Towards a Future for Independent Research: Interactive Open Discussion All participants. 7.00 – 8.30 Punches Ponytails Ringtones: Women Boxers in India A film by Pankaj Rishi Kumar (82 mins) Introduced by Shuddhabrata Sengupta "This is a journey into the science of boxing as practiced by 2 Indian women. From Dec'04 to May'07, I shot with them as they tried to understand their bodies, their undying love for the sport and their constant struggle to realize their dreams. The film unfolds their story." Pankaj Rishi Kumar (kumartalkies at yahoo.com) has been making making documentary films for the last 11 years. His best known films include Kumar Talkies. He showed the first rushes from his Independent Fellowship project on women boxers at the 2005 workshop. From tetranew at sarai.net Thu Dec 6 11:50:16 2007 From: tetranew at sarai.net (tetranew at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:50:16 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Test Mail Please ignore Message-ID: <54201.122.160.8.206.1196922016.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> This is test mail, please ignore Thanks This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Thu Dec 6 11:54:43 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 06:24:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Tarun Vijay on Malaysia Message-ID: <586742.87154.qm@web8410.mail.in.yahoo.com> Intolerant Malaysia, tolerant faith? Tarun Vijay When Hindus gathered courage and protested in an unprecedented solidarity on November 26 in Kuala Lumpur, they were crushed brutally by the Malay police using chemicals in the water cannons. None of those who had put up a united front against a cartoon created in Denmark felt anything bad or condemnable in the injustices meted out to the Hindus in an Islamic country. When it's a question of Hindus getting unfair treatment in a Muslim majority region, the 'civil, sophisticated and articulate' Muslim intellectuals take refuge in the statement that it's a matter concerning a foreign country. But when it's a question regarding a cartoon or a fatwa for beheading a writer, they say -we are a global Ummah, anything happening anywhere to Muslims is our common concern! All big lies and a bigger hypocrisy traded in the name of a religion. This year Diwali was not celebrated openly by Malaysian Hindus in protest against the demolition of one of their most revered shrines, the hundred-year-old Maha Mariamman temple in Padang Jawa. In the last fifteen years, hundreds of Hindu temples have been demolished and the number of forcible conversions and unfair treatment on religious grounds has been constantly increasing. The tragic case of Revathi was just a recent one. Moorthy Maniam was a Malaysian Hindu hero. After he died, a group of Muslims claimed he'd made a deathbed conversion. Despite his widow's protests, the Sharia courts declared that he should be buried as a Muslim. “They used Moorthy to show that in this country, Islam is supreme", complained his lawyer. In the 1980s, Malaysia's Sharia courts were given equal power to the civil courts, creating two parallel legal systems. But while the Sharia courts are constantly trying to extend their authority, secular courts are reluctant to challenge them. Malaysia which tries to woo Indian tourists with an aggressive media campaign claiming-it's a 'truly Asian' destination, has become a hotbed of Islamic intolerance and barbarities on non-Muslims. It has sixty per cent Malay Muslim population with Chinese, mostly Buddhists, comprising twenty-five per cent. Malays of Indian origin constitute about eight per cent and Tamil Hindus are ninety per cent amongst the Indian origin population. There is a fair number of Indian Muslims too. Indian Malays were taken there by the British as plantation workers in the late nineteenth century and have now become an inseparable part of Malay life. In fact, from the second century to the 14th century, Malay Peninsula has seen Hindu kingdoms and a way of life beautifully expressed in arts, culture, language and Shaivite values. Sanskrit's influence over their language is visible all over, yet the Malay Muslims choose to express their affinity with the Arabs and deny their ancestral heritage. Politically, Indian-origin Malays follow the Malaysian Indian Congress (MIC), established in 1946 as an instrument of independence from the British rule. Malaysia, freed in 1957, remained a practising pluralistic society till Islamic fundamentalism grew in the last two decades bringing Arab money and intolerance with it. Now it has parallel Islamic courts, functioning along with the civil ones, which are obviously more influential. Malay Hindus have their leader in Datuk Seri Samy Vellu, president of the MIC and a minister in the14-party coalition government who mustered courage to protest against temple demolitions by declaring a 'private' Diwali this year. However, instead of being supported by the country’s Muslim intelligentsia, he was booed, and in a rally addressed by Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, people demanded his ouster from the cabinet as a 'trouble maker'. Hindus seems to be losing hope on all fronts and are making last-ditch efforts to attract attention by any which way to their sorry state of affairs. An umbrella organisation of thirty Hindu NGOs has been formed under the banner of Hindu Rights Action Force or HINDRAF that had called for the successful demonstration on November 26. Earlier a court had banned the rally – but HINDRAF workers – gathered in an unprecedented number – twenty thousand by a modest count –defied the ban and had their voice heard throughout the world. A nation, which has seen centuries of Hindu influence nurturing its socio-cultural milieu, suddenly turned against her own people when Arab-Islamic influence grew, resulting in the dispossession of minority rights. It has tried now to completely eradicate its Hindu history being taught in the schools, including the descriptions regarding ancient Ganga Negara (2nd to 11th century), Langka Asuka(2nd to 14th century) and Sri Vijaya empire(3rd to 14th century) in different parts of the earlier greater Malay Peninsula. It's a reflection of India's secular government that the Malay Hindus of Indian origin chose to knock at the British doors, strangely petitioning the British government, Malaysia's former colonial ruler, to pay two million dollars each to every Indian-origin Malay as compensation for 'putting them in a situation of darkness and exploitation' which was a result of bringing their ancestors as indentured labourers a century before. They are discriminated on religious grounds and economic opportunities are not available to them. "Over the years Indians have been marginalised in this country and we now want the same rights as enjoyed by other communities," M. Kulasegaran, opposition lawmaker with the Democratic Action Party (DAP), told the media. "This gathering is unprecedented, this is a community that can no longer tolerate discrimination." said HINDRAF leader P. Uthayakumar. The demonstrators had gathered at Batu Caves Hindu temple and many of them carried posters of Mahatma Gandhi. But, sadly, there was no murmur amongst the Indian authorities in Delhi or in their High Commission in Kuala Lumpur about it. More on: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Columnists/Tarun_Vijay/The_Right_View/Intolerant_Malaysia_tolerant_faith/articleshow/msid-2577230,curpg-2.cms Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 17:07:17 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:37:17 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] The French Response (Musee Guimet Controversy) Message-ID: After I wrote "Tintin in Bengal", I was put in touch with the Dhaka French Embassy, and through them, staff at the Musee Guimet. I sent a list of questions to Guimet show organizers, and received over e-mail the following replies. The French Response http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/06/french-response/ To post your comments, go to: Tintin In Bengal http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ Asterix & The Big Fight http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/03/guimet-the-other-side/ From naresh.rhythm at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 23:06:39 2007 From: naresh.rhythm at gmail.com (Naresh) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 22:36:39 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: vikas inviting for a symposium on the rights of Physically Challenged Message-ID: <00ef01c8382f$1171ace0$7076a13b@hp8eb91caecf7d> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vikas Gupta" To: Cc: ; ; ; Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:05 PM Subject: vikas inviting for a symposium on the rights of Physically Challenged > Please find time and inform others > Vikas Gupta > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 00:15:47 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 00:45:47 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BREAKING: Bangladesh Court Blocks Second Shipment To France Message-ID: France-bound relics run into legal snags Thu, Dec 6th, 2007 11:40 pm BdST Dhaka, Dec 6 (bdnews24.com) – The High Court Thursday asked the government to keep up the restrictions until Jan 15 on sending archeological relics to France for display in a museum. The HC bench of justices SK Sinha and ATM Fazle Kabir made the ruling after an appeal filed by archeologist Nurul Islam. Nurul Islam filed a case in October with the Joint District Judges' Court for Dhaka against the decision of sending Bangladeshi artifacts Bangladesh to France. On Nov 29, he appealed to the same court seeking a ban on sending the relics. The court, however, did not hear the appeal, prompting Nurul Islam to file a revision case with the HC. The artifacts were due to be sent for an exhibition at Guimet Museum in France that started on Oct 24. The show ends in March. Barrister Amir-ul Islam who joined the hearing of the case on behalf of Nurul Islam said the state is responsible for protection of national assets in line with the constitution. "The assets cannot be destroyed. According to law, the sender of such assets must hold a licence, but the cultural affairs ministry does not have one," he said. Barrister Moniruzaman Asad assisted Amir-ul Islam in the hearing. He told bdnews24.com that the government had already sent a shipment of artifacts. A second consignment was waiting for shipment, which now ran to legal hurdles because of the fresh court order. From rana at ranadasgupta.com Fri Dec 7 00:39:30 2007 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 00:39:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Lyrical terrorist' sentenced over extremist poetry Message-ID: <475848EA.5070407@ranadasgupta.com> 'Lyrical terrorist' sentenced over extremist poetry Claire Truscott and agencies Thursday December 06 2007 The Guardian A 23-year-old former Heathrow shop assistant who called herself the "lyrical terrorist" and scrawled her extremist thoughts on till receipts has been handed a nine-month suspended jail sentence. Samina Malik became the first woman convicted under new terrorism legislation after writing poems entitled How To Behead and The Living Martyrs. Malik, described as an "unlikely but committed" Islamic extremist, was last month convicted by an jury at the Old Bailey of a charge under the 2000 Terrorism Act. She worked at WH Smith at Heathrow, where she scribbled her extremist lyrics on till receipts. On one she wrote: "The desire within me increases every day to go for martyrdom." But Malik told the jury she only adopted her "lyrical terrorist" nickname because she thought it was "cool" and insisted: "I am not a terrorist." She wept as she was found guilty of possessing records likely to be useful in terrorism by a majority of 10 to one. Two female jurors were also in tears. The court heard that Malik stocked a "library" of material useful to terrorists at her family home in Southall, west London. Jonathan Sharp, prosecuting, told the court she visited a website linked to jailed cleric Abu Hamza and stored material about weapons. The court also heard Malik belonged to a social networking website called hi5, describing her interests as "helping the mujaheddin in any way which I can". Under favourite TV shows, she listed: "Watching videos by my Muslim brothers in Iraq, yep the beheading ones, watching video messages by Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahri and other videos which show massacres of the kaffirs." But Muhammed Abdul Bari, secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said he did not think her actions were a criminal matter. "Many young people download objectionable material from the Internet, but it seems if you are a Muslim then this could lead to criminal charges, even if you have absolutely no intention to do harm to anyone else. "Samina's so-called poetry was certainly offensive but I don't believe this case should really have been a criminal matter. Young people may well have some silly thoughts. That should not be criminalised. It is their actions that we should be concerned about." After her conviction, Judge Peter Beaumont, the recorder of London, warned her that "all sentencing options remain open" as he granted her bail. He told her: "You have been, in many respects, a complete enigma to me." From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 05:31:07 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:01:07 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Sudhanva Deshpande's Second Response to my Mail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47588D43.3080103@gmail.com> A belated thought: Deshpande was probably wasting his breath and his ink, because the Times of India carried a report (yesterday?) about Chief Minister Buddhadev Bhattacharya admitting both administrative and political failure in Nandigram. Tapas shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > Dear All, > > Here is Sudhanva Deshpande's response to my second mail addressed to him on > the Subject of Nandigram. In the interests of a fail debate, I thought it > should be posted here for everyone to read. > > regards > > Shuddha > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > December 5, 2007 > > Dear Shuddhabrata, > > I should have written earlier, but I have been travelling (performing, > actually) in the north-east and had no access to internet and email for > about a fortnight. I saw your response to my letter upon return. > > Your eloquence remains overwhelming as ever, as does your capacity for > ctrl+c and ctrl+v jobs. So, again, my response must remain short. > > From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 08:42:30 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 22:12:30 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Sudhanva Deshpande's Second Response to my Mail References: <47588D43.3080103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003e01c8387f$02fcc0a0$6400a8c0@taraprakash> And also six bodies found just before his mail came through? He seems to be missing the corpses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tapas Ray" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sudhanva Deshpande's Second Response to my Mail >A belated thought: Deshpande was probably wasting his breath and his > ink, because the Times of India carried a report (yesterday?) about > Chief Minister Buddhadev Bhattacharya admitting both administrative and > political failure in Nandigram. > > Tapas > > > > shuddha at sarai.net wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> Here is Sudhanva Deshpande's response to my second mail addressed to him >> on >> the Subject of Nandigram. In the interests of a fail debate, I thought it >> should be posted here for everyone to read. >> >> regards >> >> Shuddha >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> December 5, 2007 >> >> Dear Shuddhabrata, >> >> I should have written earlier, but I have been travelling (performing, >> actually) in the north-east and had no access to internet and email for >> about a fortnight. I saw your response to my letter upon return. >> >> Your eloquence remains overwhelming as ever, as does your capacity for >> ctrl+c and ctrl+v jobs. So, again, my response must remain short. >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From virtuallyme at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 09:42:46 2007 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:42:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sudhanva Deshpande's Second Response to my Mail Message-ID: <79e82f610712062012q3e16968enac18d594909e731a@mail.gmail.com> Prakash Karat as reported in todays Hindu (cant find the online article) tells people "Dont equate people with communal forces" and what does he call those who do so - "those doing so are enemies of the country and society". Hmm... now that sounds like rhetoric pinched from some one else's vocabulary! I wonder whose.... Rgds, Rohan > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:01:07 -0500 > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sudhanva Deshpande's Second Response to my > Mail > To: sarai list > Message-ID: <47588D43.3080103 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed > > A belated thought: Deshpande was probably wasting his breath and his > ink, because the Times of India carried a report (yesterday?) about > Chief Minister Buddhadev Bhattacharya admitting both administrative and > political failure in Nandigram. > > Tapas > > From elkamath at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 11:44:18 2007 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 22:14:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Announcing : CACIM FORUM FELLOWSHIPS on the World Social Forum Process Message-ID: <178255.19411.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> [Please circulate this widely ! Sorry for any cross-posting] APPLICATIONS ARE INVITED FOR CACIM FORUM FELLOWSHIPS (3) Application Deadline : JANUARY 5 2008 More info @ http://cacim.net/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Fellowships CACIM (Critical Action - Centre in Movement), an initiative towards cultivating and nurturing a culture of critical reflexivity and action in individual and public work, is offering three Fellowships on the World Social Forum process. CACIM is involved in detailed research on and documentation of the Forum and other related processes (such as social movements); plays an active role in the organising process of WSF in India and globally; publishes books, reports, newsletters, and bibliographies on the Forum, both in Hindi and English; and organises debates and discussions around related issues. For more details of our work on the Forum, see www.openspaceforum.net and www.cacim.net. This is the first round of the award of these Fellowships. CACIM is instituting the Forum Fellowships in order to provide opportunities for young activists, students, and researchers to conduct studies on different aspects of the Forum process in India and globally. This would include intensive interaction with social and popular movements and civil organisations and networks in India and South Asia who are part of the WSF process, and also with movements and organisations who have either boycotted or stayed away from the WSF and/or who take part in similar but alternative processes. Through this, we hope that the Fellowships will provide the opportunity to the Fellows to also engage with and study wider socio-political processes in the country, in order for them to develop, broaden, and deepen a critical engagement with the Forum process. We would like them to critically examine the procedural depth, methodology, and potentialities of the Forum and the 'new politics' of 'open space' that it professes and the impact it and these politics may be having on socio-political movements and processes in the region, by undertaking surveys, interviews, and discussions with the main actors in the process. The Forum Fellowships, offered for a period of three months (January 16 – April 15 2008), will provide candidates with Rs. 40,000 for the preparation of a research paper to be presented at a Workshop on the WSF that CACIM will organise during May-June 2007. Selected Fellows will be provided with literature published on the Forum and with contacts in India and worldwide, and in general, will receive assistance in sharpening their proposal; and CACIM will take care of travel, boarding, and lodging for attending the Workshop. For this first round of Fellowships, we are accepting applications only from people living within India, both Indian and other nationalities. Candidates may be from any discipline and background. No formal academic qualification is required for application. Applications can be in English or Hindi. Due to our own limitations at the moment, we are not able to entertain applications in other languages but we would welcome ideas for including them in this endeavour. The following are some suggested themes for study, but not necessarily limited to these areas only : - The dynamics of WSF as well as of Mumbai Resistance in 2004 and of other autonomous spaces, counter forums, mobilisation campaigns, and other forums that have emerged around the WSF process in India and elsewhere in the world. - The experiences, visions, aspirations, and expectations of the various sections of society of the WSF, such as the Dalits, Adivasis, women, the physically challenged, sexual minorities, and others, as well as their questions and dilemmas in this regard, through their engagement with the Forum process. - The social and political significance of Forum process, its relationship with other movements, its organising process, and its regional and global expansion. - The political economy and the organising principles of the Forum, in India and worldwide. Please send your application in along with : - A short abstract indicating the scope and nature of your proposed research and the approach you would like to take to it - One writing sample (published or unpublished), and - Your detailed CV to Madhuresh, CACIM Programme Coordinator by email (cacim at cacim.net) or post by January 5 2008. CACIM, A-3 Defence Colony, New Delhi 110 024, India Ph : +91-11-4155 1521, +91-11-2433 2451 cacim at cacim.net, www.cacim.net / www.openspaceforum.net ______________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From aman.am at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 12:41:22 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:41:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Shotgun and the Sniper: Notes from the World Conference for Climate Change Message-ID: <995a19920712072311s4674753am9c38d63bed9f08e3@mail.gmail.com> Apologies for X posting on www.kafila.org "The time for silver bullets has passed," proclaimed Marc Stewart, "What we need is a Shotgun!" In his bright Bali shirt, Nike sneakers and Investment Banker haircut, Mr Stewart is the firm-handshaking, fist pumping, ever effusive all-American co-founder of Ecosecurities, a firm that specialises in developing and marketing carbon trading projects under the Clean Development Mechanism - CDM - of the Kyoto Protocol. With emission reductions under Kyoto less than a month away, Mr Stewart's firm is looking to extend its market capitalisation to far beyond its existing 40 million USD. The Ecosecurity model functions in the following way - they find and help develop projects in the developing world that is eligible for credit credits under the CDM, and then sell the credits in to firms in EU and across the orld that are looking to meet their Kyoto targets by offsetting excess emissions against carbon credits. Firms like Ecosecurities pushed the carbon market to 30 billion dollars in 2006; and if Annex 1 agrees to further emission cuts (25-40 per cent below 1992 by 2020) the potential size of the market is open to the most optimistic hyperbole. The "Shotgun Approach" suggested by Stewart was his response to the fact that Climate Change is a "reality that needs to be addressed NOW" - and that governments, international bodies and business would have to proceed on a rampage on all possible fronts simultaneously - sort of like the blunt double-barrelled, pump action shotguns freely available back home in America. The Shotgun approach was Mr Stewart's reason for opening up and extending carbon markets to as many sectors as possible - particularly Forestry. If we were to examine the shotgun metaphor in some detail, we find the shotgun is best known for its tremendous stopping power at short-ranges (say 40 per cent reduction in 10 years?), and the fact that on firing, the shot divides up into pellets, making it easy to hit small targets at some distance, allowing even inexperienced marksmen to use it with a fair degree of competency. And Mr Stewart is not the only one holding the shotgun. A week into the climate change conference, there seems to be a very interesting development paradigm emerging that is vaguely reminiscent of the AIDS approach to development. Under the adaptation and mitigation arms of Climate change - it is possible to embark on any number of projects in the guise of saving the planet. While "Saving the Poor" has clearly lost some of lustre on the funding markets, "Saving the Planet" seems to be bringing in some serious money from governments, donor bodies and private enterprise. The fact that climate shall hit everyone in end, and not just the "poor and vulnerable" (though it is routinely stressed that they shall be the worst hit) seems to have motivated some serious thinking. The first week at Bali has largely centred around the "tremendous opportunites presented by Climate Change." Thus you have sessions on "Climate Change and Gender", "Climate Change and Health", "Climate Change and the Millenium Development Goals", "Leadership and Climate Change", and my personal favourite "Climate Change and HIV/AIDS." Fire the Climate Change Shotgun and hit a whole collection of development indices - big ones at short ranges, small ones at longer ranges. The approach might just have some benefits - given the urgency of the problem (and yes, Climate Change is a real, serious, significant problem that has to be dealt with); groups working on thankless, under-funded projects like Malaria, disaster management, and drought relief might finally get the money they require - and all projects need to be "sexed up" to fit into donor spending agenda. What is interesting is the shift one sees from an earlier approach to development - which could be termed the "Sniper Approach" (My metaphor, not Mr Stewart's). The Sniper rifle, is a specialised rifle designed to maximise accuracy over long distances to hit precise targets. Thus, the Sniper Approach could be understood as a metaphor for highly decentralised specific schemes that target specific projects. These were much in vogue in the late nineties and continue to be applied in community level projects - where the approach is custom designed for the community in question and takes on board their specific needs. The Sniper approach was supposed to reduce system leakages, often using information technology and verification apparatus and was favoured by organisations like the World Bank to ensure that benefits of specific schemes were "targeted" (coincidentally a word that development agencies use a lot) at those that needed them the most. The idea was to introduce fiscal discipline in developing economies and ensure that the limited subsidies that were handed out went to the intended recipients. India's TPDS - or Targeted Public Distribution System - could be a useful example of such a scheme. Another one could be the Micro-credit intiatives and SHGs (Self Help Groups), so loved by one and all; but i suppose the fact that SHG's operate on small scales and ranges could call for Pistol/ Handgun Initiatives. One week into the conference, it is hard to tell what approach to take - perhaps one could take all three on board and step out battle-hardened and armed to the teeth. Personally, I find myself sympathetic to cause of the solar powered tazer : renewable, zero-emissions and allegedly non-lethal; always a good way to start saving the world. Best Aman From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 14:48:59 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:48:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Independant Sarai Fellow: a ( dream) working question Message-ID: <47e122a70712080118g2c0170fbx7f84cef6f49c0366@mail.gmail.com> Dear All In response to "what is Trans ? ": Independent Fellows- open interactive session. Sarai CSDS- Working Questions, 4th to 7th Dec. 2007, LTG Gallery, Mandi House, New Delhi concluding day. Obviously there are many answers to this question, both old and modern. But I want to share my dream, a dream which we all see when deep in slumber, a dream which we remember…years after even.: ' I was in the audience. It was evening time, so I don't know the gender, and therefore, let us say ' the artist' who was sitting on a big iron plate. The round black iron plate was upon something very hot, but strangely no light was coming out. Except small movements of the artist everything was calm when I slowly moved closer and closer to the artist. And no sooner I touched The Artist's shoulder it emitted a spark like thing which almost pushed me back to my space. After a moment or so, the artist began to build a wall of mud balls. Each mud ball was almost bigger than a brick which was slowly gaining height around his body; and within a minute or so the artist went inside the circular mud wall, and was completely inaccessible. I remember so vividly the colour and the texture of the mud balls" This much I remember, but I don't remember if I was disturbed by something or the dream itself ended. In the LTG lawns, two friends, with whom I already shared the dream started interpreting it, which is perfectly normal, and it is precisely here, that I also want to know the meaning of the dream, if there is one. Freud says that the dream is unreal but the sweating it causes is real. What is sweating in this case ? Sometimes my own performances afterwards look like dreams to me even. But I know what I did was not a dream. It was perhaps a mixture of reality and dream, self invented ritual, history and art history, self and other, radical and mundane, political and aesthetic, inside and outside etc. One first layer about the dream is that I was one amongst the audience and therefore I could not have been the artist, who was traveling more and more towards his ' achinpur' ( village-inwardly ) or becoming more and more personal. So as audience what I gained from seeing the artist's performance ? In this sense nothing, because, in the end it was all about her/him only. I can not imitate the performance in any case because it was the artists's moment of death also, and if I want to do die while doing a performance I must die my own way, that is the least. So what is the gain ? Nothing So is there no benefit of that experience to the audience? But I guess, I had something to share. I am happy although I don't know what actually happened So I except a response from other independent fellows, if there is a possibility to apply this dream to other faculties as well, which is quite unrealistic, I know, but still… With love Inder salim P.S. just a note of thanks to CSDS Sarai team... please convey my feelings to other team members as well who helped me and others in realizing the event joyfully .... i am really delighted hugs -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:15:30 2007 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 12:15:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956 - Legal Document No 140 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0712052245w34827defg5024615bce1465c4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Fascinating. But exactly what is this in aid of? best Aarti On Dec 4, 2007 11:42 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > *The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956* > Legal Document No 140 > *(Extract)* > > We, the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having solemnly > resolved, > in pursuance of accession of this State to > India which took place on the twenty-sixth day of October, 1947, to > further > define the existing relationship of the State with the Union of India as > an > integral part thereof, and to secure to ourselves. > > *JUSTICE*, social, economic and political; > *LIBERTY* of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; EQUALITY of > status and of opportunity; and to promote among us all; > *FRATERNITY*, assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity of the > Nation; > > *IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY* This seventeenth day of November, 1956 do > Hereby Adopt Enact and Give to ourselves this constitution. > > *PART I* > *PRELIMINARY* > > 1. (1) this Constitution may be called the Constitution of Jammu and > Kashmir. > > (2) This section and sections 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 158 shall come into > force > et once and the remaining provisions of this constitution shall come into > force on the twenty-sixth day of January, 1957, which day is referred to > in > this Constitution as the commencement of this Constitution. > > 2. (I) In this Constitution, unless the context other-wise > requires. > > (a) "Constitution of India" means the Constitu-tion of India as applicable > in relation to this State. > > (b) "existing law" means any law, ordinance, order bye-law, rule > notification; or regulation based, made or issued before the commence-ment > of this Constitution by the Legislature or other competent authority or > person hav-ing power to pass. make or issue such law, ordinance, order > bye-law rule, notification or regulation; > > (c) "Part" means a part of this Constitution; > > (d) "Schedule" means a schedule to this Constitution; and > > (e) "taxation" includes the imposition of any tax or impost, whether > general > or local or special, and "tax" shall be construed accordingly. > > (2) Any reference in this Constitution to Acts or laws of the State > Legislature shall be construed as in-cluding a reference to an Ordianance > made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > *PART II* > *THE STATE* > > (3) The State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the > Union of India. > > (4) The territory of the State shall comprise all the territories which on > the fifteenth day of August, 1947, were under the sovereignty or > suzerainty > of the Ruler of the State. > > (5) The executive and legislative power of the State extends to all > matters > except those with respect to which Parliament has power to make laws for > the > State under the provisions of the Constitution of India. > > *PART III* > *PERMANENT RESIDENTS* > > (6) (l) Every person who is, or is deemed to be, a citizen of India under > the provisions of the Constitution of India shall be a permanent resident > of > the State, if on the fourteenth day of May, 1954. > > (a) he was a State subject of class I or of class II: or > > (b) having lawfully acquired immovable pro-perty in the State, he has been > ordinarily resident in the State for not less than ten years prior to that > date. > > (2) Any person who, before the fourteenth day of May, 1954 was a State > subject of Class I or of Class II and who, having migrated after the first > day of March, 1947, to the territory -now included in Pakistan, returns to > the State under a permit for resettlement in the State or for permanent > return issued by or under the authority of any law made by the State > Legislature shall on such return be a permanent resident of the State. > > (3) In this section, the expression "State subject of Class I or of Class > II" shall have the same -meaning as the State Notification No I-L/84 dated > the twentieth April. '1927, read with State Notification No 13/L dated the > twenty- seventh June, 1932. > > 7. Unless the context otherwise requires, all referen-ces in any existing > law to hereditary State subject or to State subject of class I or of Class > II or of class III shall be construed as references to perma-nent > residents > of the State. > > 8. Nothing in foregoing provisions of this part shall derogate from the > power of the State legislature to make any law defining the classes the > persons who are, or shall be permanent residents of the State. > > 9. A Bill marking provision for any of the following matters, namely. > > (a) defining or altering the definition of, the classes of persons who > are, > or shall be, per-manent residents of the State; > > (b) conferring on permanent residents any special rights or privileges; > > (c) regulating or modifying any special rights or privileges enjoyed by > permanent residents; > shall be deemed to be passed by either House of the Legislature only if It > is passed by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total > membership > of that House. > > 10. The permanent residents of the State shall have all the rights > guaranteed to them under the Constitution of India. > > *PART IV* > *DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF STATE POLICY* > > 11. In this part, unless the context otherwise requires, the State > includes > the Government and the Legis-lature of the State and all local or other > authori-ties within the territory of the State or under the control of the > Government of the State. > > 12. The provisions contained in this Part shall not be enforceable by any > court, but the principles therein laid down are nevertheless fundamental > in > the governance of the State and it shall be the duty of the State to apply > these principles in making laws. > > 13. The prime object of the State consistent with the ideals and > objectives > of the freedom movement envisaged in "New Kashmir" shall be the pro-motion > of the welfare of the mass of the people by establishing and preserving a > socialist order of society wherein all exploitation of man has been > abolished and wherein justice-social, economic and political-shall inform > all the institutions of natio-nal life. > > 14. Consistently with the objectives outlined in the foregoing section, > the > State shall develop in a planed manner the productive forces of the > coun-try > with a view to enriching the material and cul-tural life of the people and > foster and protect. > > (a) the public sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by the > State; > > (b) the co-operative sector where the means of > production are co-operatively owned by indi-viduals or groups of > individuals; and > > (c) the private sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by an > individual or a corpora-tion employing labour, provided that the operation > of this sector is not allowed to result in the concentration of wealth or > of > the means of production to the common detriment. > > 15. The State shall endeavour to organise and develop agriculture and > animal > husbandry by bringing to the aid of the cultivator tile benefits of modern > and scientific research and techniques so as to ensure a speedy > improvement > in the standard of living as also the prosperity of the rural masses. > > 16. The State shall take steps to organise village panchayats and endow > them > with such powers and authority as may be necessary to enable them to > function as units of self-government. > > 17. The State shall, in order to rehabilitate, guide and promote the > renowned crafts and cottage indus-tries of the State, initiate and execute > well consi-dered programmes for refining and modernising techniques and > modes of production, including the employment of cheap power so that > unnece-ssary drudgery and toil of the workers are elimi-nated and the > artistic value of the products en-hanced, while Else fullest scope is > provided for the encouragement and development of individual talent and > initiative. > > 18. The State shall lake steps to separate the judiciary from the > executive > in the public-services, and shall seek to secure a judicial system which > is > humane, cheap, certain, objective and impartial, whereby justice shall be > done and shall be seen to be done and shall further strive to ensure > efficiency, im-partiality and incorruptibility of its various organs of > justice, administration and public utility. > > 19. The State shall, within the limits of its economic capacity and > development, make effective provi-sion for securing: > > (a) that all permanent residents, man and women equally, have the right to > work, that is, the right to receive guaranteed work with pay-ment for > labour > in accordance with its quan-tity and quality subject to a basic minimum > and > maximum wage established by law; > > (b) that the health and strength of workers, men and women and the tender > age of children are not abused and that permanent residents are not forced > by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, age or > strength; > > (c) that all workers, agricultural or otherwise have reasonable, just > and > humane conditions of work with full enjoyment of leisure and social and > cultural opportunities, and > > (d) that all permanent residents have adequate maintenance in old age as > well as in the event of sickness, disablement unemployment and other cases > of undeserved want by providing social insurance, medical aid, hospitals, > sana-toria and health resorts at State expense. > > 20. The State shall endeavour: > > (a) to secure to every permanent resident the right to free education upto > the University standard; > > (b) to provide, within a period often years from the commencement of this > constitution, com-pulsory education for all children until they complete > the > age of fourteen years; and > > (c) to ensure to all workers and employees ade-quate facilities for adult > education and part -time technical, professional and vocational courses. > > 21. The State shall strive to secure: > > (a) to all children the right to happy childhood with adequate medical > care > and attention; and > > (b) to all children and youth equal opportunities in education and > employment, protection against exploitation, and against moral or material > abandonment. > > 22. The State shall endeavour to secure to all women: > > (a) the right to equal pay for equal work; > > (b) the right to maternity benefits as well as ade-quate medical care in > all > employments; > > (c) the right reasonable maintenance, extending to cases of married women > who have been divorced or abandoned; > > (d) the right to full equality in all social, educa-tional, political and > legal matters; and > > (e) special protection against discourtesy, defama-tion, hoolganism and > other forms of miscon-duct. > > 23. The State shall guarantee to the socially and edu-cationally backward > sections of the people special care in the promotion of their educational, > mate rial and cultural interests and protection against social injustice. > > 24. The State shall make every effort to safeguard and promote the health > of > the people by advancing public hygiene and by prevention of disease > through > sanitation, pest and vermin control, propaganda and other measures, and by > ensuring widespread, efficient and free medical services throughout the > State and, with particular emphasis, in its remote and backward regions. > > 25. The State shall combat ignorance, superstition, fanaticism, > communialism, racialism, cultural > backwardness and shall seek to foster brotherhood and equality among all > communities under the aegis of a secular State. > > *PART V* > *THE EXECUTIVE* > *THE SADAR-I-RIYASAT* > > 26. (1) The Head of the State shall be designated as the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > (2) The executive power of the State shall be vested in the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > and shall be exercised by him either directly or through officers > subordinate to him in accordance with this Constitution. > > (3) Nothing in this Section shall: > > (a) be deemed to transfer to the Sadar-i--Riyasat any functions conferred > by > any existing law on any other authority; or > > (b) prevent the State legislature from confer-ring by law functions on any > authority subordinate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > 27. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be the person who for the time being is > recognised by the President as such: > Provided that no person shall be so recognised unless he: > > (a) is a permanent resident of the state; > (b) is not less than twenty-five years of age; and > (c) has been elected as Sadar-i-Riyasat by a majority of the total > membership of the Legislative Assembly in the manner set out in the First > Schedule. > > 28. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office during the pleasure of the > President. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may, be writing under his hand addressed to the > President, resign his office. > > (3) Subject to the foregoing provision of this section, the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > shall hold office for a term of five years from the date on which he > enters > upon his office: > > Provided that he shall notwithstanding the expiration of his term, > continue > to hold office until his successor enters upon his offlee. > > 29. A person who holds or has held office as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, > subject > to the other provisions of this Constitution, be eligible for reselection > to > that office. > > 30. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be a member of either House of > Legislature and if a member of either House be elected and recognised as > Sadar-i-Riyasat, he shall be deemed to have vacated his seat in the House > on > the date on which he enters upon his office as Sadar-I-Riyasat. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not hold any other office of profit. > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be entitled to such emoluments, allowances > and > privileges as are specified in the second schedule. > > (4) The emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be > diminished during his term of office. > > 31. The Sadar-i-Riyasat and every person acting as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, > before entering upon his office, make and subscribe in the presence of the > Chief Justice of the High Court, or in his absence, the senior-most judge > of > the High Court available, in an oath or affirmation in the following form > that is to sayed "I, A. B., do swear in the name of God that I will > faithfully discharge the functions of the Sadar-I-Riyasat of Jammu and > Kashmir and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect and defend > the > Constitution and the law and that I will devote myself to the service and > well being of the people of State." > > 32. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be removed from his office by the President if > an address by the Legis-lative Assembly supported by a majority of not > less > than two-thirds of its total membership is presented to the president > praying for such removal on the ground of violation of the Constitution. > > 33. When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by reason > of > his death, resignation or removal or when the Sadar-i-Riyasat is unable to > discharge his functions owing to absence, illness or or any other cause, > the > functions of the office shall, until the assumption of office by a newly > elected Sadar-i-Riyasat or the resumption of duties by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > as the case may be, dis-charged by such person as the President may on the > recommendation of the Council of Ministers of the State, recognise as the > acting Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > 34. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall have the power to grant pardons, reprieves, > respites or remissions of punish-ment or to suspend, remit or commute the > sentence of any person convicted of any offense against any law relating > to > a matter to which the executive power of the State extends. > > *THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS* > > 35. (1) There shall be a council of Ministers with the Prime Minister at > the > head to aid and advise the Sadar-i-Riyasat in the exercise of his > functions. > > All functions of the Sadar-i-Riyasat except those under sections 36, 38 > and > 92 shall be exercised by him only on the advice of the Council of > Ministers. > > (3) The question whether any, and if so what, advice was tendered by > Ministers to the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be inquired into in any court. > > 36. The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and the > other Ministers shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the advice of > The Prime Minister. > > 37. (1) The Council of Ministers shall be collectively responsible to the > Legislative Assembly. > > (2) A Minister who for any period of six conse-cutive months is not a > member > of either House of Legislature shall upon the expiry of that period cease > to > be a Minister. > > 38. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may on the advice of the Prime Minister appoint > from > amongst the members of either House of Legislature such number of Deputy > Ministers as may be necessary. > > 39. The Ministers and the [Deputy Ministers shall hold office during the > pleasure of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > 40. Before a Minister or a Deputy Minister enters upon lids office, the > Sadar-i-Riyasat or, in his absence, any person authorised by him, shall > administer to the Minister or the Deputy Minister to oaths of office and > of > secrecy according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > Schedule. > > 41. The salaries and allowances of Ministers and Deputy Ministers shall be > such as the Legislature relay from time to time by law determine and, > until > so determined, shall be such as are payable respectively to the Ministers > and the Deputy Ministers under the Jammu and Kashmir Minister s Salaries > Act, 1956 (Act VI of 1956) the Jammu and Kashmir Minister's Travelling > Allowances Rules for the time being in force, and the Jaminu and Kashmir > Deputy Ministers Salaries and Allowances Act. S. 2010 (Act VIII of S.2010) > > *THE ADVOCATE GENERAL* > > 42. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall appoint a person who is qualified to be > appointed a Judge of the High Court, to be Advocate General for the State. > > (2) It shall be the duty of the Advocate General to give advice to the > Government upon such legal matters and to perform such other duties of a > legal character, as may from time to time be referred or assigned to him > by > the Govern-ment, and to discharge the functions conferred on him by or > under > this Constitution or any other law for the time being in force. > > (3) In the performance of his duties, the Advocate General shall have the > right of audience in all courts in the State. > > (4) The Advocate General shall hold office during the pleasure of the > Sadar-i-Riyasat and receive such remuneration as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may > determine. > > *CONDUCT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS* > > 43. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall make rules for the more > convenient transaction of the business of the > Government of the State and for the allocation > among Ministers of the said business. > > 44. It shall be the duty of the Prime Minister > > (a) to communicate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat all decisions of the council of > Ministers relating to the administration of the affairs of the State and > proposals for legislation; > > (b) to furnish such information relating to the administration of the > affairs of the State and proposals for legislation as the Sadar-i-Riyasat > may call for; and > > (c) if the Sadar-i-Riyasat so rqeuires to submit for the consideration of > the Council of Ministers any matter on which a decision has been taken by > a > Minister but which has not been considered by the Council. > > 45. (1) All executive action of the Government shall be expressed to be > taken in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat of the Jammu and Kashmir. > > (2) Orders and other instruments made and executed in the name of the > Sadar-i-Riyasat or of the Government of Jammu and Kashmir shall be > authenticated in such manner as may be specified in the rules to be made > be > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and the validity of an order or instrument which is > so > authenticated shall not be called in question on the ground that it is not > an order or instrument made or executed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat or as the > case may be, by the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.** > > *PART VI* > *THE STATE LEGISLATIVE*** > > *COMPOSITION OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > 46. There shall be Legislature for the State which shall consist of the > Sadar-i-Riyasat and two Houses be known respectively as the Legislative > Assembly and the Legislative Council. > > 47. (1) The Legislative Assembly shall consist of one hundred members > chosen > by direct election from territorial constituencies in the State; > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, if he is of opinion that women are > not adequately represented in the Assembly nominate not more than two > women > to be members thereof. > > (2) For the purposes of sub-section (I), the State shall be divided into > territorial constituencies in such a manner that the ratio between the > population of each constituency and the number of seats allotted to it > shall, so far as practicable, be the same throughout the State. > Explanation: > In this sub-section, the express-ion "Population' means the population as > ascertained at the last preceding census of which the relevant figures > have > been published. > > (3) Upon the completion of each census, the number, extent and boundaries > of > the territor-ial constituencies shall be readjusted by such authority and > in > such manner as the Legislature may be law determine: > Provided that such readjustment shall not affect representation in the > Legislative Assemb until the disolution of the then exist-ing Assembly. > > 48. Notwithstanding anything contained in section 47, until the area of > the > State under the occuptions of Pakistan ceases to so occupied and the > people > residing in that area elect their representatives > > (a) twenty-five seats in the Legislative Assembly shall remain vacant and > shall not be taken into account for reckoning the total member-ship of the > Assembly; and the said area shall be excluded in delimiting the > territorial > Constituencies Under Section 47. > > 49. (I) There shall be reserved in the Lagislative Assembly for the > Scheduled Castes in the State a number of seats which shall bear, as > nearly > as may be, the same proportion to the total number of seats in the > Assembly > as the popu-lation of the Scheduled Castes bears to the population of the > State. > > Explanation: In this sub-section: > > (a) "population" has the same meaning as in sub-section (2) of section 47; > and > (b) "Scheduled Castes" means the caste, races or tribes or part of, or > groups within castes, races or tribes which are for the purposes of the > Constitution of India deemed to be Scheduled Casts in relation to the > State > under the pro-visions of article 341 of that Constitution. > > (2) The provisions of sub-section (1) shall cease to have effect on the > expiration of a period of five years from the commencement of this > Constitution: > > Provided that such cesser shall not affect any representation in the > Legislative Assembly until the dissolution of the then existing Assembly: > > 50. (1) The Legislative Council shall consist of thirty six members, > chosen > in the manner provided in this section. > > (2) Eleven members shall be elected by the men hers of the Legislative > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of Kashmir > and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > (3) Eleven members shall be elected by the mem-bers of the Legislative > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of Jammu > and > are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > Provided that of the members so elected, at least one shall be a resident > of > Doda District and at least one shall be a resident of Poonch District. > > (4) One member shall be elected by each of the following electorates, > namely > > (a) the members of municipal council, town area committees and notified > area > com-mittees in the Province of Kashmir; > > (b) the members of municipal council, town area committees, and notified > area committees in the Province of Jammu; > > (c) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged in > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the > Province of Kashmir; and > > (d) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged in > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the > Province of Jammu. > > (5) Two members shall be elected by each of the following electorates, > namely: > > (a) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > Province of Kashmir as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify; and > > (b) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > Province of Jammu as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > (6) Six members shall be nominated by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, not more than > three of whom shall be person belonging to any of the socially or > economically backward classes in the State, and the others shall be > persons > having special knowledge or practical experi-ence in respect of matters > such > as literature, science, art, co-operative movement and social service. > > (7) Elections under sub-section (2) and (3) shall be held in accordance > with > the system of pro-portional representation by means of the single > transferable vote. > > *GENERAL PROVISIONS* > > 51. A person shall not be qualified to be chosen to fill a seat in the > Legislature unless he: > > (a) is a permanent resident of the State; > > (b) is, in the case of a seat in the Legislative Assembly, not less than > twenty-five years of age, and in the case of a seat in the Legisla-tive > Council, not less than thirty years of age; and > > (c) possesses such other qualifications as may be prescribed in that > behalf > by or under any law made by Legislature. > > 52. (1) The Legislative Assembly, unless sooner dis-solved, shall continue > for five years from the date appointed for its first meeting and not > longer, > and the expiration of the said period of five years shall operate as a > dissolution of the Assembly; > Provided that the said period may, while a Proclamation of Emergency > issued > under arti-cle 352 of the Constitution of India is in operation, be > extended > by the State Legislature by law for a period not exceeding one year at a > time and not extending in any case beyond a period of six months after the > Proclamation has ceased to operate. > > (2) The Legislative Council shall not be subject to dissolution but as > nearly as possible one-third of the members thereof shall retire, as soon > as > may be, on the expiration of every second year in accordance with the > provisions made in that behalf by Legislature by law. > > 53. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall from time to time summon each House of > the > Legislature to meet at such time and place as he thinks fit, but six > months > shall not intervene between its last sitting in one session and the date > appointed for its first sitting in the next session. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may from time to time... > > (a) prorogue the House or either house (b) dissolve the Legislative > Assembly. > > 54. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may address either House of Legislature, or > both > Houses assembled together, and may for that purpose require the attendance > of members. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may send messages to either House, whether with > respect to a Bill then bending in the Legislature, or otherwise and a > House > to which any message is so sent shall with all convenient dispatch > consider > any matter required by the message to be taken into consideration. > > 55. (1) At the commencement of the first session after each general > election > to the Legislative Assembly and at the commencement of the first session > of > each year, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall address both Houses of Legislature > assembled together and inform the Legislature of the cause of its summons. > > (2) Provision shall be made by the rules regulating the procedure of > either > House for the allot-ment of time for discussion of the matters reffered to > in such address. > > 56. Every Minister and the Advocate General shall have the right to speak > in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings, of both Houses and to > speak in, and otherwise to to take part in the proceedings of, any > Committee-of the Legislature of which he may be named a member, but shall > not, by virtue of this section, be entitled to vote. > > *OFFICERS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > 57. The Legislative Assembly shall, as soon as may be, choose two members > of > the Assembly to be res-pectively Speaker and Deputy Speaker thereof and, > so > often at office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant, the Assembly > shall choose another member to be Speaker, or Deputy Speaker, as the case > may be. > > 58. A member holding office as Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the > Legislative > Assembly: > > (a) shall vacate his office if he ceases to be a member of the Assembly; > > (b) may at any time by writing under his hand addressed, if such member is > the Speaker, to the Deputy Speaker, and if such member is the Deputy > Speaker, to the Speaker, resign his office; and > > (c) may be removed from his office by a resolu-tion of the Assembly passed > by a majority of all the then members of the Assembly; > > Provided that no resolution for the purpose of clause (c) shall be moved > unless at least fourteen days notice has been given of the intention to > move > the resolution. > > Provided further that, whenever the Assembly is dissolved, the Speaker > that > not vacate his office until immediately before the first meeting of the > Assembly after the dissolution. > > 59. (1) While the office of Speaker is vacant the duties of the office > shall > be performed by the Deputy Speaker or, if the office of the Deputy Speaker > is also vacant, by such member of the Assembly as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may > appoint for the purpose. > > (2) During the absence of the Speaker from any sitting of the Assembly the > Deputy speaker or, if he is also absent, such person as may be determined > by > the rules of procedure of the Assembly, or, if no such person is present, > such other person as may be determined by the Assembly, shall act as > Speaker. > > 60. (1) At any sitting of the Legislative Assembly, while any resolution > for > the removal of the Speaker from his office is under consideration, the > Speaker, or while any resolution for the removal of the Deputy Speaker > from > his office is under consideration, the Deputy Speaker shall not, though he > is present, preside and the provisions of sub-section (2) of section 59 > shall apply inrelation to every such sitting as they apply in relation to > a > sitting from which the Speaker or, as the case may be, the Deputy Speaker > is > absent. > > (2) The Speaker shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to take > part > in the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly while any resolu-tion for > his > removal from office is under con-sideration in the Assembly and shall, > notwith-standing anything in section 67, be entitled to vote only in the > first instance on such resolu-tion or on any other matter during such > pro-ceedings but not in the case of an equality of votes. > > 61. (1) The Legislative Council shall, as soon as may be, choose two > members > of the Council to be respectively Chairman and Deputy Chairman thereof > and, > so often as the office of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman becomes vacant, > the Council shall choose another member to be Chairman or Deputy Chairman, > as the case may be. > > (2) The provisions of sections 58,59 and 60 shall apply in relation to > the > Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council with the > substitution of the words "Chairman" and "Council" for the words "Speaker" > and "Assembly" respectively wherever they occur in those provisions, and > with the omission of the further proviso to section 58. > > 62. There shall be pay to the speaker and the the Deputy Speaker of the > Legislative Assembly and to the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the > Legislative Council, such salaries and allowances as may be respectively > fixed by Legislature by law and, until provi-sion in that behalf is so > made, > such salaries and allowances as are specified in the Third Schedule. > > 63. (1) Each House of the Legislature shall have a separate secretarial > Staff: > > Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as preventing > the creation of posts common to both Houses. > > (2) The Legislature may by law regulate the re-cruitment, and the > conditions > of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of each House. > > (3) Until provision is made by the Legislature under sub-section (2), the > Sadar-i-Riyasat may, after consultation with the Speaker of the > Legislative > Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case may be, > make rules regulating the recruitment, and the con-ditions of service of > persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of the Assembly or the > Council, > and any rules so made shall have effect subject to the provisions of any > law > made under the said sub-section. > > *CONDUCT OF BUSINESS* > > 64. Every member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative Council > shall before taking his seat, make and sub-scribe before the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > or some person appointed in that behalf by him an oath or affirmation > according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. > > 65. Save as otherwise provided by the rules of proce-dure of the House, > the > quorum to constitute a meeting of the Legislative Assembly and of the > Legislative Council shall be twenty and ten re-spectively. > > 66. A House of the Legislature shall have power to act notwithstanding any > vacancy in the membership thereof, and any proceedings in the Legislature > shall be valid notwithstanding that it is discovered subsequently that > some > person who was not entitl-ed so to do sat or voted or otherwise took part > in > the proceedings. > > 67. (1) Save as otherwise provided in this Constitu-tion, all questions at > any sitting of a House of the Legislature shall be determined by a > majority > of votes of the members present and voting, other than the Speaker or > Chairman, or person acting as such. > > (2) The Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such, shall not vote in > the > first instance, but shall have and exercise a casting vote in the case of > an > equality of votes. > > *DISQUALIFICATIONS OF MEMBERS*** > > 68. (1) No person shall be a member of both Houses of the Legislature and > provision shall be made by Legislature by law for the vacation by a person > who is chooser a member of both Houses of his seat in one House or the > other. > > (2) If a member of a House of the Legislature resigns his seat by writing > under his hand addressed to tile Speaker or the Chairman, as the case may > be, his s at shall thereupon become vacant. > > (3) If for a period of sixty days a member of a House of the Legislature > is > without permission of the House absent from all meetings thereof, the > House > may declare his seat vacant: > > Provided that in computing the said period of sixty days no account shall > be > taken of: > > (a) such absence caused by reason beyond his control; or > > (b) any period during which the House is prorogued or is adjourned for > more > than four consecutive days. > > 69. (1) A person shall be disqualified for being chosen and for being a > member of the Legislative Assembly or Legislative Council: > > (a) if he holds any office of profit under the Government of India or the > State Govern-ment within the Union of India, other than an office declared > by Legislature by law not to dis-qualify its holder; > > (b) if he is of unsound mind and stands so declared by a competent court; > > (c) if he is an undischarged insolvent; > > (d) if he is not a permanent resident of the State or has voluntarily > acquired the citizenship of a foreign State, or is under any > acknowledgement > of allegiance to adherence to a foreign State; > > (e) if he is so disqualified by or under any law made by the Legislature. > > (2) For the purposes of this section, a person shall not be deemed to hold > an office of profit under the Government of India, the State Government or > any other State Government vithin the Union of India, by reason only that > he > is a Minister, or a Deputy Minister. > > 70. (1) If it is represented to the Speaker or the Chairman that a member > of the Legislative Assembly or, as the case may be, of the Legis-lative > Council is disqualified for being such a member under the provisions of > section 69, or > was so disqualified at any time since being chosen as a member and the > member does not admit that he is or was so disqualified, the question > shall > be referred to the High Court decision and its decision shall be final: > > Provided that w here the disqualification in question arises from > circumstances which subsisted at the time of his being chosen as such > member, no such representation as aforesaid shall be entertained: > > (a) unless it is made after the expiration of the period by law for > presenting an elec-tion petition calling in question the election of the > member; and > > (b) if such an election petition is pending or has been tried, unless the > Speaker or Chairman as the case may be is satisfied that the question of > the > members' disquali-fication by reason of those circumstances has not been > raised or, as the case may be, was not raised, in the proceedings on the > election petition. > > (2) Where on a representation made under sub-section (I) the member admits > that he is or w. s disqualified under the provisions of section 69, or > where > on a reference made under that sub-section the High Court decides that the > member is or was so disqualified, his seat shall thereupon become vacant. > > 71. If a person sits or votes as a member of the Legislative Assembly or > the > Legislative Council before he has complied with the requirements of > section > 54 or when he knows that he is not quali-fied or that he is disqualified > for > membership thereof or that he is prohibited from so doing by the > provisions > of any law made by the Legislature, he shall be liable in respect of each > day on which he so sits or votes to a penalty of one hundred rupees to be > recovered as a debt due to the State. > > *POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND ITS > MEMBERS* > > 72. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the rules > and > standing orders regulating the procedure of the Legislature, there shall > be > freedom of speech in the Legislature. > > (2) No member of the Legislature shall be liable to any proceedings in any > court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in the > Legislature or any committee thereof and no person shall be so liable in > respect of the publication by or under the authority of a House of the > Legislature of any report, paper, votes, or proceedings. > > (3) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of a House of > the Legislature and- of the members and the committees of a House of the > Legislature shall be such as may from time to time be defined by > Legislature > by law, and until so defined shall be those of the Parliament of India and > of its members and committees. > > (4) The provisions of sub-sections (1), (2) and (3) shall apply in > relation > to persons who by virtue of this Constitution have the right t o speak, in > and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of, a House of the > Legislature > or any committee thereof as they apply in relation to members of that > Legislature. > > 73. Members of the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council shall > be > entitled to receive such salaries and allowances as may from time to time > be > determined by Legislature by law and, until provision in that respect is > so > made, salaries and allowances at such rates and upon such conditions as > were > immediately before the commencement of this Constitution applicable in the > case of members of the Constituent Assembly. > > *LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURE* > > 74. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 76 and 84 with respect to > Money Bills and other Finan-cial Bills, a Bill may originate in either > House > of the Legislature. > > (2) Subject to the provisions of sections 75 and 76 a Bill shall not be > deemed to have been passed by the Legislature unless it has been agreed to > by both Houses, either without amendment or with such amendments only as > are > agreed to by both Houses. > > (3) A Bill pending in the Legislature shall not lapse by reason of the > prorogation of the House or House thereof. > > (4) A Bill pending in the Legislative Council which has not been passed by > the Legislative Assembly shall not lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly. > > (5) A Bill which is pending in the Legislative Assembly or which having > been > passed by the Legislative Assembly, is pending in the Legi-slative > Council, > shall lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly > > 75. (1) If after a Bill has been passed by the Legisla-tive Assembly and > transmitted to the Legisla-tive Council: > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > (b) more than three months elapse from the date on which the Bill is laid > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Legisl-ative Assembly may, > subject > to the rules regulating its procedure, pass the Bill again in the same or > in > any subse-quent session with or without such amendments, if any, as have > been made suggested or agreed to by the Legislative Council and then > transmit the Bill as so passed to the Legislative Council. > > (2) If after a Bill has been so palmed for the se-cond time by the > legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council: > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > (b) more shall one month elapses from the date on which the Bill is laid > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > Legislative Assembly does not agree; > > the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Houses of the > Legislature in the form in which it passed by the Legislative Assembly for > the second time with such amendments, if any, as have been made or > suggested > by the Legislative Council and agreed to by the Legislative Assembly. > > (3) Nothing in this section shall apply to a Money Bill. > > 76. (1) A Money Bill shall not be introduced in the Legislative Council. > > (2) After a Money Bill has been passed by the Legislative Assembly, it > shall > be transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommenda-tions and the > Legislative Council shall within a period of fourteen days from the date > of > its receipt of the Bill return the Bill to the Legis-lative Assembly with > its recommendations, and the Legislative Assemble may there upon either > accept or reject all or any of the recom-mendations of the Legislative > Council. > > (3) If the Legislative Assembly accepts any of the recommendations of the > Legislative Council, the Money Bil] shall deemed to have been passed by > both > Houses with the amend-ments recommended by the Legislative Coun-cil and > accepted by the Legislative Assembly. > > (4) If the Legislative Assembly does not accept any of the recommendations > of the Legislative Council, the Money Bill shall be deemed to have been > passed by both Houses in the form which it was passed by the Legislative > Assembly without any of the amendments recommended by the Legislative > Council. > > 5. If a Money Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly and transmitted to > the > Legislative Council for its recommendations is not returned to the > Legislative Assembly within the said period of fourteen days, it shall be > deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the said > period in the form in which it was passed by the Legislative Assembly. > > 77. (1) For the purposes of the part, a Bill shall be deemed to be a Money > Bill if it contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the > following > matters namely: > > (a) the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of any > tax; > > (b) the regulation of the borrowing of money or the giving of any > guarantee > by the State, or the amendment of the law with respect to any financial > obligations under-taken or to be undertaken by the State; > > (c) the custody of the Consolidated Fund or the Contingency Fund of the > State, the payment of money into or the with-drawal of moneys from any > such > Fund: > > (d) the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State; > > (e) the declaring of any expenditure to be expenditure charges on the > consolidated Fund of the State, or the increasing of the amount of any > such > expenditure; > > (f) the receipt of money on account of the Consolidated Fund of the State > or > the public account of the State or the custody or issue of such money; or > any matter incidental to any of the matters specified in clauses (a) to > (f). > > (2) A Bill shall not be deemed to be a Money Bill by reason only that it > provides for the imposition of fines or other pecuniary penalties or for > the > demand or payment of fees for lice-nces or fees for services rendered, or > by > reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, > alteration > or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local > purposes. > > (3) If any question arises whether a Bill introduced in the Legislature is > a > Money Bill or not, the decision of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly > thereon shall be final. > > (4) There shall be endorsed an every Money Bill when it is transmitted to > the Legislative Council under section 76 and when it is pre-sented to the > Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent under section 78, the certificate of the > Speaker > of the Legislative Assembly signed by him that it is a Money Bill. > > 78. When a Bill has been passed by both Houses of the Legislature, it > shall > be presented to the Sadar--i-Riyasat and the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall declare > either that he assents to the Bill or that he with-holds assent therefrom. > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, as soon as possible after the > presentation to him of the Bill for assent, return the Bill if it is not a > Money Bill together with a message requesting that the Houses will > reconsider the Bill or any specified provisions thereof and, in > particular, > will consider the desira-bility of introducing any such amendments as he > may > recommend in his message and, when a Bill is so returned, the Houses shall > reconsider the Bill accordingly, and if the Bill is passed again by the > Houses with or without amendment and presented to the Sadar-i-Riyasat for > assent, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not withhold assent therefrom. > > *PROCEDURE IN FINANCIAL MATTERS* > > 79. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall in respect of every financial year cause > to be laid before both Houses of the Legislature a statement of the > estimated receipts and expenditure of the State for that year, in this > part > referred to as the "annual financial statement." (2) The estimates of > expenditure embodied in the annual financial statement shall show > separately > > (a) the sums required to meet expenditure described by this constitution > as > expendi-ture charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State; and > > (b) the sums required to meet other expendi-ture proposed to be made from > the con-solidated Fund of the State; and shall distinguish expenditure on > revenue account from other expenditure. > > (3) The following expenditure shall be expenditure charged on the > consolidated fund of the State: > > (a) the emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and other > expenditure relating to his office; > > (b) the salaries and allowances of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of > the > Legislative Assembly and of the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the > Legislative Council; > > (c) debt charges for which the State is liable including interest, sinking > fund charges and redemption charges. and other expenditure relating to the > raising of loans and the service and redemption of debt; > > (d) expenditure in respect of the salaries and allowances of the Judges of > the High Court; > > (e) any sums required to satisfy any judge-ment decree or award of any > Court > or arbitral tribunal; > > (f) any other expenditure declared by this Constitution, or by Legislature > by law, to be so charged. > > 80. (1,) So much of the estimates as relates to expen-diture changed upon > the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be submitted to the vote of > the > Legislative Assembly, but nothing in this sub-section shall be construed > as > preven-ting the discussion in the Legislature of any those estimates. > > (2) So much of the said estimates as relates to other expenditure shall be > submitted in the form of demands for grants to the Legislative Assembly, > and > the Legislative Assembly shall have power to assent, or to refuse to > assent, > to any demand, or to assent to any demand subject to a reduction of the > amount specified therein. > > (3) No demand for a grant shall be made except on the recommendation of > the > Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > (1) As soon as may be after the grants under section 80 have been made by > the Assembly, there shall be introduced a Bill to provide for the > appropriation out of the Consolidated fund of the State of all moneys > required to meet: > > (a) the grants so made by the Assembly; and (b) the expenditure charged on > the Consoli-dated Fund of the State but not exceed-ing in any case the > amount shown in the statement previously laid before the Houses. > > (23 No amendment shall be proposed to any such Bill in either House of the > Legislature which will have the effect of varying the amount or altering > the > destination of any grant to made or of varying the amount of any > expenditure > charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State, and the decision of the > person presiding as to whether an amendment is inadmissible under the > sub-section shall be final. > > (3) Subject to the provisions of sections 89 and 83, no money shall be > withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund of the State except under > appropriation > made by law passed in accor-dance with the provisions of this section > > 12. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall: > > (a) if the amount authorised by any law made in accordance with provisions > of section 81 to be expended for a particular service for the current > financial year is found to be insufficient for the purposes of that year > or > when a need has arisen during the current financial year for > supplemen-tary > or additional expenditure upon some new service not contemplated in the > annual financial statement for that year; or > > (b) if any money has been spent on any ser-vice during a financial year in > excess of the amount granted for the service and for that year, cause to > be > laid before the Houses of the Legislature another statement showing the > estimated amount of that expenditure or cause to be presented to the > Legis-lative Assembly a demand for such excess, as the case may be. > > (2) The provisions of sections 79, 80 and 81 shall have effect in relation > to any such statement and expenditure or demand and also to any law to be > made authorising the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund > of > the State to meet such expenditure or the grant in respect of such demand > as > they have effect in relation to the annual financial state-ment and the > expenditure mentioned therein or to a demand for grant and the law to be > 'made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the > Consolidated Fund of the state to meet such expenditure or grant. > > 83. (1) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this Part, > the Legislative Assem-bly shall have power: > > (a) to make any grant in advance in respect of the estimated expenditure > for > a part of any financial year pending the completion of the procedure > prescribed in section 80 for the voting of such grant and the pas-sing of > the law in accordance with the provisions of section 81 in relation to > that > expenditure; > > (b) to make a grant for meeting an unexpec-ted demand upon the resources > of > the State when on account of the magnitude or the indefinite character of > the services the demand cannot be stated with the details ordinarily given > in an annual financial statement; > > (c) to make an exceptional grant which forms no part of the current > service > of any financial year; > and the Legislature shall have power to authorise by law the withdrawal of > moneys from the Consolidated Fund of the State for the purposes for which > the said grants are made. > > (2) The provisions of sections 80 and 81 shall have effect in relation to > the making of any grant under sub-section (1) and to law to be made under > that sub-section as they have effect in relation to the making of a grant > with regard to any expenditure mentioned h1 the annual financial statement > and the law to be made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys > out > of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure. > > 84. (1) A bill or amendment making provision for any of the matters > specified in clauses (a) to (f) of sub-section (1) of section 77 shall not > be introduced or moved except on the recom-mendation of the > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > and a Bill making such provision shall not be introdu-ced in the > Legislative > Council: > > Provided that no recommendation shall be required under this sub-section > for > the moving of an amendment making provision for the reduction or abolition > of any tax. > > (2) A Bill or amendment shall not be deemed to make provision for any of > the > matters afore-said by reason only that it provides for the. imposition of > fines or other pecuniary penal-ties, or for the demand or payment of fees > for licences or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it provides > for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of any > tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. > > (3) A Bill which, if enacted and brought into operation. would involve > expenditure from the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be passed by > a > House of the Legislature unless the Sadar-i-Riyasat has recommended to > that > House the consideration of the Bill. > > *PROCEDURE GENERALLY* > > 85. (1) A House of the Legislature may make rules for regulating, subject > to > the provisions of this Constitution, its procedure and the con-duct of its > business. > > (2) Until rules are made under sub-section (1), the rules of procedure and > standing orders in force immediately before the commencement of this > Constituent Assembly while discharging the functions of the Legislative > Assembly shall have effect in relation to each House of the Legislature > subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be made therein by > the > Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative > Council, as the case may be. > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, after consultation with the Speaker of the > Legislative Assembly and the Chairman of the Legislative Council, may > make- > rules as to the procedure with respect to communications between the two > Houses. > > 86. The Legislature may, for the purpose of the timely completion of > financial business, regulate by law the procedure of, and the conduct of > business in. the House of the Legislature in relation to any financial > matter or to any Bill for the appropria-tion of moneys out of the > Consolidated Fund of the State, and, if and so far as any provision of any > law so made is inconsistent with any rule made by either House of the > Legislature under sub-section (I) of section 85 or with any rule of > standing > order having effect in relation to either House of the Legislature under > sub-section (2) of that section such provisions shall prevail. > > 87. Business in the Legislature shall be transacted in Urdu or in English. > > (1) Provided that the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman > of > the Legislative Council or person acting as such, as the case may be, may > permit any member to address the House in Hindi, or if he cannot > adequa-tely > express himself in any of the aforesaid languages, to address the House in > his mother-tongue. > > (2) The official records of the proceedings in the Legislature shall be > kept > in Urdu as well as in English. > > (3) The text of all Bills and amendments there of moved in and of all Acts > passed by the Legis-lature which shall be treated as authoritative, shall > be > in English. > > 88. No discussion shall take place in the Legislature with respect to the > conduct of any Judge of the Supreme Court or of the High Court in the > discharge of his duties. > > 89. (1) The validity of any proceedings in the Legis-lature shall not be > called in question -on the gro-unds of any alleged irregularity of > procedure. > > (2) No officer or member of the Legislature in whom powers are vested by > or under this Constitution for regulating procedure or the conduct of > Business, or for maintaining order, in the Legislature shall be subject to > the juris-diction of any court in respect of the exercise by him of those > powers. > > 90. No Act of the Legislature and no provision in any such Act shall be > invalid by reason only that some recommendation required by this > Constitution was not given, if assent to that Act was given by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > Legislative power of the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > 91. (1) If at any time, except when both Houses of the Legislature are in > session, the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that circumstances exist which > render it necessary for him to take immediate action; he may promulgate > such > Ordinances as the circums-tances appear to him to require. > Provided that the power of making Ordinance under this Section shall > extend > only to those matters with respect to which the Legislature has power to > make laws. > > (2) An Ordinance promulgated under this section shall have the same force > and effect as an Act of the Legislature assented to by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > but every such Ordinance: > > (a) shall be laid before both the Houses of the Legislature, and shall > cease > to operate at the expiration of six weeks from the re-assembly of the > Legislature, or if be-fore tile expiration of that period a reso-lution > disapproving it is passed by the Legislative Assembly and agreed to by > Legislative Council, upon the resolution being agreed to by the > Legislative > Coun-cil, and - > > (b) may be withdrawn at any time by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > Explanation: - Where the Houses of the Legislature are summoned to > re-assemble on different dates the period of six weeks shall be reckoned > from the latter of those dates for the purposes of this sub-section. > > Breakdown of Constitutional Machinery. > > 92. (1) If at any time the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that a situation > has > arisen in which the Government of the State cannot be carried on in > accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, the Sadar-i-Riyasat > may > by Proclamation: > > (a) assume to himself all or any of the func-tions of the Government of > the > State and all or any of the powers vested in or excercisable by anybody or > authority in the State; > > (b) make such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to the > Sadar-i--Riyasat to be necessary or desirable for giving effect to the > objects of the Procla-mation, including provisions for suspen-ding in > whole > or in part the operation of any provision of this Constitution rela-ting > to > any body or authority in the State: > > Provided that nothing in this section shall authorised die Sadar-i-Riyasat > to assume to himself any of the powers vested in or exer-cisable by the > High > Court or to suspend in whole or in part the operation of any provi-sion of > this Constitution relating to the High Court. > > (2) Any such Proclamation may be revoked or carried by a subsequent > Proclamation. > > (3) Any such Proclamation whether varied under sub-section (2) or not, > shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous > Proclama-tion, > cease to operate on the expiration of six months from the date on which it > divas first Issued. > > (4) If the Sadar-i-Riyasat by a Proclamation under this section assumes to > himself any of the powers of the legislature to make laws, any law made by > him in the exercise of that power shall, subject to the terms thereof, > continue to have effect until two years have elapsed from the date on > which > the Proclamation ceases to have effect, unless sooner repealed or > re-enacted > by an Act of the Legislature, and any reference in this Constitution to > any > Acts of or laws made by the Legislature shall be construed as including a > reference to such law. No Proclamation under sub-section (1) shall be > issued > except with the concurrence of the President of India. > > (6) Every Proclamation under this section shall, except where it is a > Proclamation revoking a previous Proclamation, be laid before each house > of > the Legisiature as soon as it is convened. > > *PART VII* > *THE HIGH COURT* > > 93. (1) There shall be a High Court for the State, consisting of a Chief > Justice and two or more other judges. > > (2) The High Court exercising jurisdiction in relation to the State > Immediately before the commencement of this Constitution shall be the High > Court for the State. > > 94. The High Court shall be a court of record and shall have all the > powers > of such a courts including the power to punish for contempt of itself or > of > the courts subordinate to it. > > 95. Every Judge of the High Court shall be appointed by the President by > Warrant under his hand and seal after consultation with the Chief Justice > of > India, the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and in the case of appointment of a Judge > other > than the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice of the High Court and shall hold > office until he attains the age of sixty years. > > 96. A person shall not be qualified for appointment as a Judge of the High > Court unless he is a citizen of India, and: > > (a) has for at least ten years held a judicial office in the State or in > any > other part of India; or > > (b) has for at least ten years been an advocate of the State High Court or > of any other High Court in India or of two or more such courts in > succession. > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this Section in omputing the period > during which a person has been an advocate of a High Court. there shall be > included any period during which the person has held judicial office after > he became an advocate. > > 97. Every person appointed to be a Judge of the High > Court, shall. before he enters upon his office, make an subscribe before > the > Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him, an oath or > affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > Schedule. > > 98. (1) There shall be paid to the Judges of the High > Court such salaries as are specified in the Fourth Schedule. > > (a) Every Judge shall be entitled to such allowan-ces and to such rights > in > respect of leave of absence and pension as may from time to time be > determined by or under law made by the Legislature, and until so > determined, > to such allowances and rights as are specified in the Fourth Schedule: > > Provided that neither the allowances of a Judge nor his rights in respect > of > leave of absence or pension shall be varied to his dis-advantage after his > appointment: > > 99. (1) A Judge of the High Court may, by writing under his hand addressed > to the President, resign his office. > > (2) A Judge of the High Court shall not be removed from his office except > by > an order of the President passed after an address by each House of the > Legislature supported by a majority of the total membership of that House > and by a majority of not less than two- thirds of the members of that > House > present and voting has been presented to the president > in the same session for such removal on the > ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity. > > (3) The Legislature may by law regulate the procedure for the > presentation > of an address and for the investigation and proof of the misbehaviour or > incapacity of a Judge under sub-section (2). > > 100. (1) When the office of the Chief Justice is vacant or when the Chief > Justice is by reason of absence or otherwise, unable to perform the duties > of his office, the duties of the office shall be performed by such one of > the other > Judges of the Court as the President may appoint for the purpose. > > (2) When any Judge of the High Court other than the Chief Justice is by > reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the duties of > his office or is appointed to act temporarily as Chief Justice, the > President may appoint a duly qualified person to act as a Judge of the > Court > until the permanent Judge has resumed his duties. > > 101. (1) The usual places of sitting of the High Court shall be Jammu and > Srinagar. > > (2) The Chief Justice shall, with the approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat > determine the number of Judges who shall sit from time to time at Jammu > and > at Srinagar for such period as may be deemed necessary. > > (3) Whenever it appears to the Chief Justice that it is desirable that the > High Courts should hold its sitting at a place other than Srinagar and > Jummu, one or more Judges of the High Court as determined by him shall, > with > the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, sit at such place. > > 102. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the provisions > of > any law for the time being in force, the jurisdiction of and the law > administered in the High Court and the respective powers of the Judges > thereof in relation to the administration of justice in the court, > including > any power to make rules of court and to regulate the sittings of the court > and of members thereof, sitting alone or in Division Courts, shall be the > same as immedia-tely before the commencement of this Constitution. > > 103. The High Court shall have power to issue to any person or authority, > including in appropriate cases any Government within the State, > directions, > orders or writs. including writs in the nature of habeas corpus, mandamus, > prohibition, quo warranto and certiorari, or any of them. for any purpose > other than those mentioned in clause (2A) of article 32 of the > Constitution > of India. > > 104. (1) The High Court shall have superintendence and control over all > courts for the time being subject to its appellate or revisional > jusrisdic-tion and all such courts shall be subordinate to the High Court. > > (I) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, the > High > court may: > > (a) call for returns from such courts, > > (b) make and issue general rules and prescribe forms for regulating the > practice and pro-ceedings of such courts; and > > (c) Prescribe forms in which books, entries and accounts shall be kept by > the officers of any such court. > > (3) The High Court may also settle tables of fees to be allowed to the > sheriff and all clerks and officers of such courts and to attorneys, > advo-cates and pleaders practicing therein: > Provided that any rules made, forms prescrib-ed or tables settled under > sub-section (2) or sub-section(3) shall not be inconsistent with the > provision of any law for the time being in force, and shall require the > previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > 105. If the High Court is satisfied that a case pending in a court > subordinate to it involves a substantial question of law as to the > interpretation of this Constitution or the Constitution of India the > deter-mination of which is necessary for the disposal of the case, it > shall > withdraw the case and may: > > (a) either dispose of the case itself; or > > (b) determine the said question of law and return the case to the court > from > which the case has been so withdrawn together with a copy of its judgement > on such question, and the said court shall on receipt thereof proceed to > dispose of the case in conformity with such judgement. > > 106. No person who had held office as a Judge of the > High Court after the commencement of this Con-stitution shall plead or act > in any court or before any authority within the State. > > 107. (1) The High Court shall have and use as occa-sion may require a seal > bearing a device and impression of the State emblem with an exergue or > label > surrounding the same with the inscription: > > "The seal of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir'' > > (2) The seal shall be delivered to. and kept in the custody of, the > Registrar or such other officer of the court as the Chief Justice may > designate in this behalf. > > 108. (1) Appointments of officers and servants of the High Court shall be > made by the Chief Justice of the court or such other judge or officer of > the > court as he may direct: > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by rule require that in such cases > as > may be specified in the rule no person not already attached to the court > shall be appointed to any office connected with the court save after > consulta-tion with the State Public Service Commis-sion. > > (I) Subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the > conditions of service of the officers and servants of the High Court shall > be such as may be prescribed by rules made by the High Court with the > approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > (3) The administrative expenses of the High Court including all salaries, > allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the officers and > servants of the Court' shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the > State, and any fees or other moneys taken by the Court shall form part of > that Fund. > > *SUBORDINATE COURTS* > > 109. (1) Appointment of persons to be, and the postings: and promotion off > district judges in the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in > con-sultation with the High Court. > (2) A person not already in the service of the : State shall only be > eligible to be appointed a district judge if he has been for not less > than > seven years an advocate or pleader and is recommended by the High Court > for > appointment. > > 110. Appointment of persons other than district judges to the judicial > service of the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in accordance > with > rules made by him in that behalf after consulation with the Public Service > Commission and with the High Court. > > 111. The control over district courts and courts sub-ordinate thereto > including the posting and promo-tion of, and the grant of leave to, > persons > belong-ing to the judicial service of the State and holding any post > inferior to the post of district judge shall be vested in the High Court, > but nothing in this section shall be construed as taking away from any > such > person any right of appeal which he may have under the law regulating the > conditions of his service or as authorising the High Court to deal with > him > otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of his service prescribed > under such law. > > 112. In this part... > > (a) the expression "district judge'' includes additional district judge, > assistant district judge, sessions judge, additional sessions judge and > assistant sessions judge: > > (b) the expression "judical service" means a service consisting > exclusively > of persons inten-ded to fill the post of district judge, and other civil > judicial posts inferior to the post of dis-trict judge. > > 113. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be public notification direct that the > foregoing provisions of this part and any rules made thereunder shall with > effect from such date as may be fixed by him in that behalf apply in > relation to any class or classes of magis-trates in the State as they > apply > in relation to any persons appointed to the judicial service of the State > Subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified in the > notification. > > *PART VIII* > *FINANCE, PROPERTY AND CONTRACTS* > > 114. No tax shall be levied or collected except by authority of law. > > 115. (1) Subject to the provisions of section 116, all revenues received > by > the Government, all loans raised by the Government by the issue of > treasury bills, loans or ways and means advances and all moneys received > by > Government in repayment of loaned shall form one consolidated fund to be > entitled "the Consolidated Fund of the State." > (2) All other public moneys received by or on behalf of the Government > shall > be credited to the public account of the State. > (3) No moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State shall be > appropriated except in accordance with law and for the purposes and in the > manner provided in this Constitution. > > 116. The Legislature may by law establish a Contingency Fund in the nature > of an impress to be entitled > "the Contingency Fund of the State" into which shall be paid from time to > time such sums as may be determined by such law, and the said Fund shall > be > placed at the disposal of the Sadar-i--Riyasat to enable advances to be > made > by him out of such fund for the purposes of meeting unforeseen expenditure > pending authorisation of such expendi-ture by Legislature by law under > section 82 or 83. > > 117. The State may make any grants for any public purpose, notwithstanding > that the purpose is not one with expect to which the Legislature may make. > > 118. The custody of the Consolidated Fund of the State and the Contingency > Funds of the State, the payment of moneys into such funds, the withdrawal > of > moneys therefrom, the custody of public moneys other than those credited > to > such Fund received by or on behalf of the Government, their payment into > the > public account of the State and the withdrawal of moneys from such account > and all other matters connected with or ancillary to matters aforesaid > shall > be regulated by law made by the Legislature and, until provision in that > behalf is so made, shall be regulated by rules made by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > 119. All moneys received by or deposited with: > > (a) any officer employed in connection with the affairs of the State in > his > capacity as such, other than revenues or public moneys raised or received > by > the Government; or > > (b) an, court within the State to the credit of any cause, matter, account > or persons, shall be paid into the public account of the State. > > 120. Any property within the State which, if this Constitution had not > come > up into operation, would have accrued to the Government or any other > authority hi the State by escheat or lapse, or as bona-vacantia for want > of > a rightful owner, shall vest in the State. > > 121. (1) The executive power of the State shall extend, subject to any law > made by the State Legisla-ture, to the carrying on of any trade or > busi-ness, and to the grant, scale, disposition or mortgage of any > property > held for the purposes of the State, and to the purchase or acquisi-tion of > property for those purposes and to the making of contracts. > > (2) All property acquired for the purposes of the State shall vest in the > State. > > 122. (1) All contracts made in the exercise of the executive power of the > State shall be expressed to be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and all such > contracts and all assurance of property made in the exercise of that power > shall be executed on behalf of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by such persons and in > such manner as he may direct or authorise. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be personally liable in respect of any > contract or assurance made or executed for the purposes of this > Constitution, or for the purposes any of enact-ment relating to the > Government of the State heretofore in force, nor shall any person making > or > executing any such contract or assurance on his behalf be personally > liable > in respect thereof. > > 123. The Government may sue or be sued by the name of the State of Jammu > and > Kashmir and may, subject to any provisions which may be made by Act of the > Legislature enacted by virtue of powers conferred by this Constitution, > sue > or be sued in relation to its affairs in the like cases as the State might > have sued or been sued if this Constitution had not been enacted. > > *PART IX* > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE* > > 124. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may > by > law regulate the recruitment and conditions of service of persons > appointed, > to public services and posts in connection with the affairs of the State: > > Provided that it shall be competent for the Sadar--i-Riyasat or such > person > as he may direct, to make rules regulating the recruitment and the > conditions of services of persons appointed, to such services and posts > until provisions in that behalf is made by or under an Act of the > Legislature under this section, and any rules so made shall effect subject > to the provisions of any such Act. > > 125. (1) Except expressly provided by this Constitution, every person who > is > a member of a civil service of the State or holds any civil post > under the State hold office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > (2) Notwithstanding that a person holding a civil post under the State > holds > office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, any contract under > which > a person, not being a member of a civil service of the State, is appointed > to hold such a post man, if the Sadar-i-Riyasat deems it necessary in > order > to secure the services of a person having special qualifications, provide > for tile payment to him of compensation, if before the expiration of an > agreed period that post is abolished or he is, for reasons not connected > with any miscon-duct on his part required to vacate that post. > > 126. (1) No person who is a member of a civil service of tile State or > holds > a civil post under the State shall be distressed or removed by an > authority > subordinate to that by which he was appointed. > > (2) No such person as aforesaid shall be dismissed or removed or reduced > in > rank until he has been given a reasonable opportunity of show-ing cause > against the action proposed to be taken in regard to him: > > Provided that this sub-section shall not apply: > > (a) where a person is dismissed or removed or reduced in rank on the > ground > of con-duct which has led to his conviction on a criminal charge; > > (b) where an authority empowered to dismiss or remove a person or to > reduce > him in rank is satisfied that for some reason, to be recorded by that > authority in writing, it is not reasonably practicable to give to that > person an opportunity of showing cause; or > > (c) where the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that in the interests of the > security of the State it is not expedient to give to that person such an > opportunity. > > (3) If any question arises whether it is reasonably > practicable to give to any person an oppor-tunity of showing cause under > sub-section. > > (4) The decision thereon of the authority empo-wered to dismiss or remove > such person or to reduce him in rank, as the case may be, shall be final. > > 127. Until other Provisional is made in this behalf under the > constitution, > all the laws in force im-mediately before the commencement of this > Consti-tution and applicable to any public service or any post which > continues to exist after the commence-ment of this Constitution as service > or post under the- State, shall continue in force so far as consistent > with > the provisions of this Constitu-tion. > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION* > > 128. There shall be a Public Service Commission (here-inafter referred to > in > this Part as "the Commi-ssion" for the State. > > 129. (1) The Chairman and other members of the Commission shall be > appointed > by the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > Provided that as nearly as may be one-half of the members of the > Commission > shall be persons who at the dates of their respective appointments have > held > office for at least ten years under the Government. > > (2) A member of the Commission shall hold office of a terms of five years > from the date on which he enters upon his office or until he attains the > age > of sixty-five years, whichever is earlier: > > Provided that: > > (a) a member of the Commission may, by writing under his hand addressed to > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, resign his office > > (b) a member of the Commission may be removed from his office in the > manner > hereinafter provided. > > (3) A person who holds office as a member of the Commission shall on the > expiration of his term of office, be ineligible for re-appointment to that > office. > > 130. (1) Subject to the provisions of sub-section (3), the Chairman or any > other member of the Commission shall only be removed from his office by > order of the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the ground of misbehaviour after the High > Court on reference being made to it by the Sadar-i--Riyasat, has, on > inquiry > held in that behalf, reported that the Chairman or such other member, as > the > case may be ought on any such ground to be removed. > > The Sadar-i-Riyasat may suspend from office the Chairman or any other > member > of the Commission in respect of whom a reference has been made to the High > Court under sub-section (l) until the Sadar-i-Riyasat has passed orders on > receipt of the report of the High Court on such reference. > > (3) Notwithstanding anything in sub-section (1) the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by > order remove from office the Chairman or any other mem-ber of the > Commission > if the Chairman on. such other member, as the case may be - > > (a) is adjudged an insolvent; or > > (b) engages during his term of office in any paid employment out side the > duties of his office; or > > (c) is, in the opinion of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, unfit to continue in office > by reason of infirmity of mind or body. > > (4) If the Chairman or any other member of the Commission is or becomes in > anyway concern-ed or interested in any contract or agreement made by or on > behalf of the Government of the State, the Government of India or the > Government of any other State in India or participates in anyway in the > profit thereof or in any benefit or emolument arising therefrom otherwise > than as a member and in common with other members of an incorporated > company, he shall, for the purposes of sub-section (1), be deemed to be > guilty misbehavi-our. > > 131. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be regulations: > > (a) determine the number of members of the Commission and their conditions > of service; and > > (b) make provision with respect to the num-ber of members of the staff of > the Commission and - their conditions of service; > > Provided that the conditions of service of a member of the Commission > shall > not be varied to his disadvantage after his ap-pointment. > > 132. On ceasing to hold office the Chairman and the members of the > Commission shall be ineligible for further office under the Government of > the State, but a member other than the Chairman shall be eligible for > appointment as a Chairman of the Commission. > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this sec-tion; the office of Minister > or > Deputy Minister shall not be deemed to be an office under the Government > of > the state. > > 133. (1) It shall be the duty of the Commissions to conduct examinations > for > appointment to the services of the State. > > (2) The Commission shall be consulted - > > (a) on all matters relating to methods of recruitment to civil services > and > for civil posts; > > (b) on the principles to be followed in making appointments to civil > services and posts and in making promotions and transfers from one service > to another and on the suitability of candidate for such appointments, > promotions or transfers; > > (c) on all disciplinary matters affecting a person serving under the > Government including memorials or petitions relating to such matters; > and it shall be the duty of the Commission to advise on any matter so > referred to them or on any other matter which the Sadar-i--Riyasat may > refer > to them: > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may make regulations specifying the > matters in which either generally, or in any particular class of cases or > in > any particular circumstances, it shall not be necessary for the Commission > to be consulted. > > (3) Nothing in sub-section (2) shall require the Commission to be > consulted > as respects the manner in which a provision may be made by the State for > the > reservation of appointment or posts in favour of any class of permanent > residents which in the opinion of the Govern-ment is not adequately > represented in the services under the State. > > (4) All regulations made under the proviso to sub-section (2) by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be laid for not less than fourteen days before each > House of the Legislature as soon as possible after they made, and shall be > subject to such modifications, whether by way or repeal or amendment, as > the > Legislative Assembly may make during the session in which they are so > laid. > > 134. If the office of the Chairman of the Commission becomes vacant or if > the Chairman is by reason of absence or for any other reason unable to > perform the duties of his office, those duties shall until some person > appointed under sub-section (1) of section 129 to the vacant office has > entered on the duties thereof or, as the case may be until the Chairman > has > resumed his duties, be performed by such one of the other members of the > Commission as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may appoint for the purpose. > > 135. An Act made by the Legislature may provide for the exercise of > additional functions by the Commission as respects the services of the > State > and also as respects the services of any local authority or other body > corporate constituted by law or of any public institution. > > 136. The expenses of the Commission, including any salaries, allowances > and > pensions payable to or in respect of the members or the staff of the > Com-mission, shall be charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State. > > 137. It shall be the duty of the Commission to present annually to the > Sadar-i-Riyasat a report as to the work done by the Commission and the > Sadar-I--Riyasat, on receipt of such report, shall cause a copy thereof > together with a memorandum explai-ning, as respects the cases, if any, > where > the advice of the Commission was not accepted, the reasons for such > non-acceptance to be laid before the Legislature. > > *PART X* > *ELECTIONS* > > 138. (1) The superintendence, direction and control of the preparation of > the electoral rolls for, and the conduct of, the elections held under Part > VI shall, be vested in an Election Commissio-ner to be appointed by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, may, for such period as he may deem necessary > appoint one or more Deputy Election Commissioners to assist the Election > Commissioner in the per-formance of the functions conferred by sub-section > (1). > > (3) subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the > Conditions of service of the Election Commissioner and the Deputy Election > Commissioner shall be such as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > (4) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may make acts viable to the Election Commissioner > such staff as may be necessary for the discharge of the functions > conferred > on the Election Commissioner by sub-section (1). > > 139. There shall be one general electoral roll for every territorial > constituency for election to either House of the Legislature and no person > shall be ineligible for inclusion in any such roll or claim to be > inclu-ded > in any special electoral roll for any such consti-tuency on grounds only > of > religion, race, caste, sex or any of them. > > 140. The elections to the Legislative Assembly shall be on the basis of > adult suffrage; that is to say, every person who is a permanent resident > of > the State and who is not less than twenty-one years of age on such date as > may be fixed in that behalf by or under any law made by the Legislature > and > is not otherwise disqualified under this Constitution or any law made by > the > Legislature on the ground of non-residence, unsoundness of mind, crime or > corruptor illegal practice, shall be registered as a voter at any such > election. > > Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may from > time to time by law make provision with respect to all matters relating > to, > or in connection with elections to either House of the Legislature, > including the preparation of elec-toral rolls, the delimitation of > constituencies, appointment of election tribunals and all other matters > necessary for securing the due constitution of the two Houses. > > 142. Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution: > > (a) the validity of any law relating to the delimita-tion of territorial > constituencies for the pur-pose of electing members of the Legislative > Assembly or the allotment of seats to such constituencies, made or > purporting to be made under section 141, shall not be called in ques-tion > in > any court; > > (b) no election to either House of the Legislature shall be called in > question except by an elec-tion petition present to such authority and in > such manner as may be provided for by or under any law made by the > Legislature. > > *PART XI* > *MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS* > > 143. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be answerable to any court for the > exercise of performance of the powers and duties of his office or for any > act done or purposing to be done by him in the exercise and performance of > those -powers and duties. > > Provided that nothing in this subjection-sec-tion shall be construed as > restricting the right of any person to bring appropriate proceed-ings > against the Government. > > (2) No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or continued > against the Sadar-I--Riyasat in any court during his term of office. No > process for the arrest or imprisonment of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall issue > from any court during his term of office. > > No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > shall be instituted during his term of office in any court in res-pect of > any act done or purporting to be done by him in his personal capacity, > whether be-fore or after he entered upon his office as Sadar-i-Riyasat, > until the expiration of two months next after notice in writing has been > delivered to the Sadar-i-Riyasat or left at his office stating the nature > of > the proceedings the cause of action therefor, the name, descri-ption and > place of residence of the party by whom such proceedings are to be > instituted and the relief which he claims. > > 144. The flag of the State shall be rectangular in shape and red in colour > with three equidistant white vertical stripes of equal with next to the > staff and a white plough in the middle with the handle facing the stripes. > > The ratio of the length of the flag to its width shall be 3:2. > > 145. The official language of the State shall be Urdu, but the English > language shall, unless the Legisla-ture by law otherwise provides continue > to be used for all the official purpose of the State for which it was > being > used immediately before the com-mencement of this Constitution. > > . The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, as soon as may be, after the commencement of > the Constitution establish an Academy of Arts, Culture and Language, where > opportunities will be afforded for the development of Art and Culture of > the > State and for the development of Hindi, Urdu and other regional languages > of > the State specified in the Sixth Schedule.** > > *PART XII* > *AMENDMENTS OF THE CONSTITUTION* > > 147. An amendment of this constitution may be initia-ted only by the > introduction of a Bill for the pur-pose in the Legislative Assembly and > when > the Bill is passed in each House by a majority of not less than two-thirds > of the total membership of at the House, it shall be presented to the > Sadar-i-Riyasat for his assent and, upon such assent being given to the > Bill, the Constitution shall stand amended in accordance with the terms of > the Bill: > > Provided that a Bill providing for the abolition of the Legislative > Council > may be intro-duced in the Legislative Assembly and passed by it majority > of > the total membership of the Assembly and by a majority of not less than > two-thirds of the members of the Assembly present and voting: > > Provided further that no Bill or amendment seeking to make any change in: > > (a) this section; > > (b) the provisions of the sections 3 and 5; or > > (c) the provisions of the constitution of India as applicable in relation > to > the State; > > shall be introduced or moved in either house -of the Legislature. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 10:11:14 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:11:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu Protests in Malaysia Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712052041g6df4eaaewed3dc8df62b092b8@mail.gmail.com> http://friskodude.blogspot.com/2007/11/hindu-protests-in-malaysia.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:20:13 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 12:20:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956 - Legal Document No 140 In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0712052245w34827defg5024615bce1465c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0712052245w34827defg5024615bce1465c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712052250w58232c42wdf6452400bd62734@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aarti , Sometimes I feel the readers should be fed with some intresting facts which are otherwise ignored. Pawan Was your mail intended for me or the group ? On 12/6/07, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > Fascinating. But exactly what is this in aid of? > > best > Aarti > > > On Dec 4, 2007 11:42 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > *The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956* > > Legal Document No 140 > > *(Extract)* > > > > We, the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having solemnly > > resolved, > > in pursuance of accession of this State to > > India which took place on the twenty-sixth day of October, 1947, to > > further > > define the existing relationship of the State with the Union of India as > > an > > integral part thereof, and to secure to ourselves. > > > > *JUSTICE*, social, economic and political; > > *LIBERTY* of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; EQUALITY of > > > > status and of opportunity; and to promote among us all; > > *FRATERNITY*, assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity of > > the > > Nation; > > > > *IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY* This seventeenth day of November, 1956 do > > Hereby Adopt Enact and Give to ourselves this constitution. > > > > *PART I* > > *PRELIMINARY* > > > > 1. (1) this Constitution may be called the Constitution of Jammu and > > Kashmir. > > > > (2) This section and sections 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 158 shall come into > > force > > et once and the remaining provisions of this constitution shall come > > into > > force on the twenty-sixth day of January, 1957, which day is referred to > > in > > this Constitution as the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > 2. (I) In this Constitution, unless the context other-wise > > requires. > > > > (a) "Constitution of India" means the Constitu-tion of India as > > applicable > > in relation to this State. > > > > (b) "existing law" means any law, ordinance, order bye-law, rule > > notification; or regulation based, made or issued before the > > commence-ment > > of this Constitution by the Legislature or other competent authority or > > person hav-ing power to pass. make or issue such law, ordinance, order > > bye-law rule, notification or regulation; > > > > (c) "Part" means a part of this Constitution; > > > > (d) "Schedule" means a schedule to this Constitution; and > > > > (e) "taxation" includes the imposition of any tax or impost, whether > > general > > or local or special, and "tax" shall be construed accordingly. > > > > (2) Any reference in this Constitution to Acts or laws of the State > > Legislature shall be construed as in-cluding a reference to an > > Ordianance > > made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > *PART II* > > *THE STATE* > > > > (3) The State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of > > the > > Union of India. > > > > (4) The territory of the State shall comprise all the territories which > > on > > the fifteenth day of August, 1947, were under the sovereignty or > > suzerainty > > of the Ruler of the State. > > > > (5) The executive and legislative power of the State extends to all > > matters > > except those with respect to which Parliament has power to make laws for > > the > > State under the provisions of the Constitution of India. > > > > *PART III* > > *PERMANENT RESIDENTS* > > > > (6) (l) Every person who is, or is deemed to be, a citizen of India > > under > > the provisions of the Constitution of India shall be a permanent > > resident of > > the State, if on the fourteenth day of May, 1954. > > > > (a) he was a State subject of class I or of class II: or > > > > (b) having lawfully acquired immovable pro-perty in the State, he has > > been > > ordinarily resident in the State for not less than ten years prior to > > that > > date. > > > > (2) Any person who, before the fourteenth day of May, 1954 was a State > > subject of Class I or of Class II and who, having migrated after the > > first > > day of March, 1947, to the territory -now included in Pakistan, returns > > to > > the State under a permit for resettlement in the State or for permanent > > return issued by or under the authority of any law made by the State > > Legislature shall on such return be a permanent resident of the State. > > > > (3) In this section, the expression "State subject of Class I or of > > Class > > II" shall have the same -meaning as the State Notification No I-L/84 > > dated > > the twentieth April. '1927, read with State Notification No 13/L dated > > the > > twenty- seventh June, 1932. > > > > 7. Unless the context otherwise requires, all referen-ces in any > > existing > > law to hereditary State subject or to State subject of class I or of > > Class > > II or of class III shall be construed as references to perma-nent > > residents > > of the State. > > > > 8. Nothing in foregoing provisions of this part shall derogate from the > > power of the State legislature to make any law defining the classes the > > persons who are, or shall be permanent residents of the State. > > > > 9. A Bill marking provision for any of the following matters, namely. > > > > (a) defining or altering the definition of, the classes of persons who > > are, > > or shall be, per-manent residents of the State; > > > > (b) conferring on permanent residents any special rights or privileges; > > > > (c) regulating or modifying any special rights or privileges enjoyed by > > permanent residents; > > shall be deemed to be passed by either House of the Legislature only if > > It > > is passed by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total > > membership > > of that House. > > > > 10. The permanent residents of the State shall have all the rights > > guaranteed to them under the Constitution of India. > > > > *PART IV* > > *DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF STATE POLICY* > > > > 11. In this part, unless the context otherwise requires, the State > > includes > > the Government and the Legis-lature of the State and all local or other > > authori-ties within the territory of the State or under the control of > > the > > Government of the State. > > > > 12. The provisions contained in this Part shall not be enforceable by > > any > > court, but the principles therein laid down are nevertheless fundamental > > in > > the governance of the State and it shall be the duty of the State to > > apply > > these principles in making laws. > > > > 13. The prime object of the State consistent with the ideals and > > objectives > > of the freedom movement envisaged in "New Kashmir" shall be the > > pro-motion > > of the welfare of the mass of the people by establishing and preserving > > a > > socialist order of society wherein all exploitation of man has been > > abolished and wherein justice-social, economic and political-shall > > inform > > all the institutions of natio-nal life. > > > > 14. Consistently with the objectives outlined in the foregoing section, > > the > > State shall develop in a planed manner the productive forces of the > > coun-try > > with a view to enriching the material and cul-tural life of the people > > and > > foster and protect. > > > > (a) the public sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by the > > State; > > > > (b) the co-operative sector where the means of > > production are co-operatively owned by indi-viduals or groups of > > individuals; and > > > > (c) the private sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by an > > individual or a corpora-tion employing labour, provided that the > > operation > > of this sector is not allowed to result in the concentration of wealth > > or of > > the means of production to the common detriment. > > > > 15. The State shall endeavour to organise and develop agriculture and > > animal > > husbandry by bringing to the aid of the cultivator tile benefits of > > modern > > and scientific research and techniques so as to ensure a speedy > > improvement > > in the standard of living as also the prosperity of the rural masses. > > > > 16. The State shall take steps to organise village panchayats and endow > > them > > with such powers and authority as may be necessary to enable them to > > function as units of self-government. > > > > 17. The State shall, in order to rehabilitate, guide and promote the > > renowned crafts and cottage indus-tries of the State, initiate and > > execute > > well consi-dered programmes for refining and modernising techniques and > > modes of production, including the employment of cheap power so that > > unnece-ssary drudgery and toil of the workers are elimi-nated and the > > artistic value of the products en-hanced, while Else fullest scope is > > provided for the encouragement and development of individual talent and > > initiative. > > > > 18. The State shall lake steps to separate the judiciary from the > > executive > > in the public-services, and shall seek to secure a judicial system which > > is > > humane, cheap, certain, objective and impartial, whereby justice shall > > be > > done and shall be seen to be done and shall further strive to ensure > > efficiency, im-partiality and incorruptibility of its various organs of > > justice, administration and public utility. > > > > 19. The State shall, within the limits of its economic capacity and > > development, make effective provi-sion for securing: > > > > (a) that all permanent residents, man and women equally, have the right > > to > > work, that is, the right to receive guaranteed work with pay-ment for > > labour > > in accordance with its quan-tity and quality subject to a basic minimum > > and > > maximum wage established by law; > > > > (b) that the health and strength of workers, men and women and the > > tender > > age of children are not abused and that permanent residents are not > > forced > > by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, age or > > strength; > > > > (c) that all workers, agricultural or otherwise have reasonable, just > > and > > humane conditions of work with full enjoyment of leisure and social and > > cultural opportunities, and > > > > (d) that all permanent residents have adequate maintenance in old age as > > > > well as in the event of sickness, disablement unemployment and other > > cases > > of undeserved want by providing social insurance, medical aid, > > hospitals, > > sana-toria and health resorts at State expense. > > > > 20. The State shall endeavour: > > > > (a) to secure to every permanent resident the right to free education > > upto > > the University standard; > > > > (b) to provide, within a period often years from the commencement of > > this > > constitution, com-pulsory education for all children until they complete > > the > > age of fourteen years; and > > > > (c) to ensure to all workers and employees ade-quate facilities for > > adult > > education and part -time technical, professional and vocational courses. > > > > 21. The State shall strive to secure: > > > > (a) to all children the right to happy childhood with adequate medical > > care > > and attention; and > > > > (b) to all children and youth equal opportunities in education and > > employment, protection against exploitation, and against moral or > > material > > abandonment. > > > > 22. The State shall endeavour to secure to all women: > > > > (a) the right to equal pay for equal work; > > > > (b) the right to maternity benefits as well as ade-quate medical care in > > all > > employments; > > > > (c) the right reasonable maintenance, extending to cases of married > > women > > who have been divorced or abandoned; > > > > (d) the right to full equality in all social, educa-tional, political > > and > > legal matters; and > > > > (e) special protection against discourtesy, defama-tion, hoolganism and > > other forms of miscon-duct. > > > > 23. The State shall guarantee to the socially and edu-cationally > > backward > > sections of the people special care in the promotion of their > > educational, > > mate rial and cultural interests and protection against social > > injustice. > > > > 24. The State shall make every effort to safeguard and promote the > > health of > > the people by advancing public hygiene and by prevention of disease > > through > > sanitation, pest and vermin control, propaganda and other measures, and > > by > > ensuring widespread, efficient and free medical services throughout the > > State and, with particular emphasis, in its remote and backward regions. > > > > > > 25. The State shall combat ignorance, superstition, fanaticism, > > communialism, racialism, cultural > > backwardness and shall seek to foster brotherhood and equality among all > > communities under the aegis of a secular State. > > > > *PART V* > > *THE EXECUTIVE* > > *THE SADAR-I-RIYASAT* > > > > 26. (1) The Head of the State shall be designated as the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > (2) The executive power of the State shall be vested in the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > and shall be exercised by him either directly or through officers > > subordinate to him in accordance with this Constitution. > > > > (3) Nothing in this Section shall: > > > > (a) be deemed to transfer to the Sadar-i--Riyasat any functions > > conferred by > > any existing law on any other authority; or > > > > (b) prevent the State legislature from confer-ring by law functions on > > any > > authority subordinate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > 27. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be the person who for the time being is > > recognised by the President as such: > > Provided that no person shall be so recognised unless he: > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the state; > > (b) is not less than twenty-five years of age; and > > (c) has been elected as Sadar-i-Riyasat by a majority of the total > > membership of the Legislative Assembly in the manner set out in the > > First > > Schedule. > > > > 28. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office during the pleasure of the > > President. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may, be writing under his hand addressed to the > > > > President, resign his office. > > > > (3) Subject to the foregoing provision of this section, the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > shall hold office for a term of five years from the date on which he > > enters > > upon his office: > > > > Provided that he shall notwithstanding the expiration of his term, > > continue > > to hold office until his successor enters upon his offlee. > > > > 29. A person who holds or has held office as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, > > subject > > to the other provisions of this Constitution, be eligible for > > reselection to > > that office. > > > > 30. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be a member of either House of > > Legislature and if a member of either House be elected and recognised as > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, he shall be deemed to have vacated his seat in the > > House on > > the date on which he enters upon his office as Sadar-I-Riyasat. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not hold any other office of profit. > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be entitled to such emoluments, allowances > > and > > privileges as are specified in the second schedule. > > > > (4) The emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be > > diminished during his term of office. > > > > 31. The Sadar-i-Riyasat and every person acting as Sadar-i-Riyasat > > shall, > > before entering upon his office, make and subscribe in the presence of > > the > > Chief Justice of the High Court, or in his absence, the senior-most > > judge of > > the High Court available, in an oath or affirmation in the following > > form > > that is to sayed "I, A. B., do swear in the name of God that I will > > faithfully discharge the functions of the Sadar-I-Riyasat of Jammu and > > Kashmir and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect and defend > > the > > Constitution and the law and that I will devote myself to the service > > and > > well being of the people of State." > > > > 32. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be removed from his office by the President > > if > > an address by the Legis-lative Assembly supported by a majority of not > > less > > than two-thirds of its total membership is presented to the president > > praying for such removal on the ground of violation of the Constitution. > > > > > > 33. When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by reason > > of > > his death, resignation or removal or when the Sadar-i-Riyasat is unable > > to > > discharge his functions owing to absence, illness or or any other cause, > > the > > functions of the office shall, until the assumption of office by a newly > > elected Sadar-i-Riyasat or the resumption of duties by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > as the case may be, dis-charged by such person as the President may on > > the > > recommendation of the Council of Ministers of the State, recognise as > > the > > acting Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > 34. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall have the power to grant pardons, > > reprieves, > > respites or remissions of punish-ment or to suspend, remit or commute > > the > > sentence of any person convicted of any offense against any law relating > > to > > a matter to which the executive power of the State extends. > > > > *THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS* > > > > 35. (1) There shall be a council of Ministers with the Prime Minister at > > the > > head to aid and advise the Sadar-i-Riyasat in the exercise of his > > functions. > > > > All functions of the Sadar-i-Riyasat except those under sections 36, 38 > > and > > 92 shall be exercised by him only on the advice of the Council of > > Ministers. > > > > (3) The question whether any, and if so what, advice was tendered by > > Ministers to the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be inquired into in any > > court. > > > > 36. The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and the > > > > other Ministers shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the advice > > of > > The Prime Minister. > > > > 37. (1) The Council of Ministers shall be collectively responsible to > > the > > Legislative Assembly. > > > > (2) A Minister who for any period of six conse-cutive months is not a > > member > > of either House of Legislature shall upon the expiry of that period > > cease to > > be a Minister. > > > > 38. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may on the advice of the Prime Minister appoint > > from > > amongst the members of either House of Legislature such number of Deputy > > > > Ministers as may be necessary. > > > > 39. The Ministers and the [Deputy Ministers shall hold office during the > > pleasure of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > 40. Before a Minister or a Deputy Minister enters upon lids office, the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or, in his absence, any person authorised by him, shall > > administer to the Minister or the Deputy Minister to oaths of office and > > of > > secrecy according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > > Schedule. > > > > 41. The salaries and allowances of Ministers and Deputy Ministers shall > > be > > such as the Legislature relay from time to time by law determine and, > > until > > so determined, shall be such as are payable respectively to the > > Ministers > > and the Deputy Ministers under the Jammu and Kashmir Minister s Salaries > > Act, 1956 (Act VI of 1956) the Jammu and Kashmir Minister's Travelling > > Allowances Rules for the time being in force, and the Jaminu and Kashmir > > > > Deputy Ministers Salaries and Allowances Act. S. 2010 (Act VIII of > > S.2010) > > > > *THE ADVOCATE GENERAL* > > > > 42. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall appoint a person who is qualified to > > be > > appointed a Judge of the High Court, to be Advocate General for the > > State. > > > > (2) It shall be the duty of the Advocate General to give advice to the > > Government upon such legal matters and to perform such other duties of a > > legal character, as may from time to time be referred or assigned to him > > by > > the Govern-ment, and to discharge the functions conferred on him by or > > under > > this Constitution or any other law for the time being in force. > > > > (3) In the performance of his duties, the Advocate General shall have > > the > > right of audience in all courts in the State. > > > > (4) The Advocate General shall hold office during the pleasure of the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and receive such remuneration as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > determine. > > > > *CONDUCT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS* > > > > 43. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall make rules for the more > > convenient transaction of the business of the > > Government of the State and for the allocation > > among Ministers of the said business. > > > > 44. It shall be the duty of the Prime Minister > > > > (a) to communicate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat all decisions of the council > > of > > Ministers relating to the administration of the affairs of the State and > > proposals for legislation; > > > > (b) to furnish such information relating to the administration of the > > affairs of the State and proposals for legislation as the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > may call for; and > > > > (c) if the Sadar-i-Riyasat so rqeuires to submit for the consideration > > of > > the Council of Ministers any matter on which a decision has been taken > > by a > > Minister but which has not been considered by the Council. > > > > 45. (1) All executive action of the Government shall be expressed to be > > taken in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat of the Jammu and Kashmir. > > > > (2) Orders and other instruments made and executed in the name of the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or of the Government of Jammu and Kashmir shall be > > authenticated in such manner as may be specified in the rules to be made > > be > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and the validity of an order or instrument which is > > so > > authenticated shall not be called in question on the ground that it is > > not > > an order or instrument made or executed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat or as the > > > > case may be, by the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.** > > > > *PART VI* > > *THE STATE LEGISLATIVE*** > > > > *COMPOSITION OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > 46. There shall be Legislature for the State which shall consist of the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and two Houses be known respectively as the Legislative > > Assembly and the Legislative Council. > > > > 47. (1) The Legislative Assembly shall consist of one hundred members > > chosen > > by direct election from territorial constituencies in the State; > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, if he is of opinion that women > > are > > not adequately represented in the Assembly nominate not more than two > > women > > to be members thereof. > > > > (2) For the purposes of sub-section (I), the State shall be divided into > > > > territorial constituencies in such a manner that the ratio between the > > population of each constituency and the number of seats allotted to it > > shall, so far as practicable, be the same throughout the State. > > Explanation: > > In this sub-section, the express-ion "Population' means the population > > as > > ascertained at the last preceding census of which the relevant figures > > have > > been published. > > > > (3) Upon the completion of each census, the number, extent and > > boundaries of > > the territor-ial constituencies shall be readjusted by such authority > > and in > > such manner as the Legislature may be law determine: > > Provided that such readjustment shall not affect representation in the > > Legislative Assemb until the disolution of the then exist-ing Assembly. > > > > 48. Notwithstanding anything contained in section 47, until the area of > > the > > State under the occuptions of Pakistan ceases to so occupied and the > > people > > residing in that area elect their representatives > > > > (a) twenty-five seats in the Legislative Assembly shall remain vacant > > and > > shall not be taken into account for reckoning the total member-ship of > > the > > Assembly; and the said area shall be excluded in delimiting the > > territorial > > Constituencies Under Section 47. > > > > 49. (I) There shall be reserved in the Lagislative Assembly for the > > Scheduled Castes in the State a number of seats which shall bear, as > > nearly > > as may be, the same proportion to the total number of seats in the > > Assembly > > as the popu-lation of the Scheduled Castes bears to the population of > > the > > State. > > > > Explanation: In this sub-section: > > > > (a) "population" has the same meaning as in sub-section (2) of section > > 47; > > and > > (b) "Scheduled Castes" means the caste, races or tribes or part of, or > > groups within castes, races or tribes which are for the purposes of the > > Constitution of India deemed to be Scheduled Casts in relation to the > > State > > under the pro-visions of article 341 of that Constitution. > > > > (2) The provisions of sub-section (1) shall cease to have effect on the > > expiration of a period of five years from the commencement of this > > Constitution: > > > > Provided that such cesser shall not affect any representation in the > > Legislative Assembly until the dissolution of the then existing > > Assembly: > > > > 50. (1) The Legislative Council shall consist of thirty six members, > > chosen > > in the manner provided in this section. > > > > (2) Eleven members shall be elected by the men hers of the Legislative > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of > > Kashmir > > and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > > > (3) Eleven members shall be elected by the mem-bers of the Legislative > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of Jammu > > and > > are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > Provided that of the members so elected, at least one shall be a > > resident of > > Doda District and at least one shall be a resident of Poonch District. > > > > (4) One member shall be elected by each of the following electorates, > > namely > > > > (a) the members of municipal council, town area committees and notified > > area > > com-mittees in the Province of Kashmir; > > > > (b) the members of municipal council, town area committees, and notified > > area committees in the Province of Jammu; > > > > (c) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged > > in > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the > > Province of Kashmir; and > > > > (d) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged > > in > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the > > > > Province of Jammu. > > > > (5) Two members shall be elected by each of the following electorates, > > namely: > > > > (a) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > > Province of Kashmir as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify; and > > > > (b) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > > Province of Jammu as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > > > (6) Six members shall be nominated by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, not more than > > > > three of whom shall be person belonging to any of the socially or > > economically backward classes in the State, and the others shall be > > persons > > having special knowledge or practical experi-ence in respect of matters > > such > > as literature, science, art, co-operative movement and social service. > > > > (7) Elections under sub-section (2) and (3) shall be held in accordance > > with > > the system of pro-portional representation by means of the single > > transferable vote. > > > > *GENERAL PROVISIONS* > > > > 51. A person shall not be qualified to be chosen to fill a seat in the > > Legislature unless he: > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the State; > > > > (b) is, in the case of a seat in the Legislative Assembly, not less than > > > > twenty-five years of age, and in the case of a seat in the Legisla-tive > > Council, not less than thirty years of age; and > > > > (c) possesses such other qualifications as may be prescribed in that > > behalf > > by or under any law made by Legislature. > > > > 52. (1) The Legislative Assembly, unless sooner dis-solved, shall > > continue > > for five years from the date appointed for its first meeting and not > > longer, > > and the expiration of the said period of five years shall operate as a > > dissolution of the Assembly; > > Provided that the said period may, while a Proclamation of Emergency > > issued > > under arti-cle 352 of the Constitution of India is in operation, be > > extended > > by the State Legislature by law for a period not exceeding one year at a > > > > time and not extending in any case beyond a period of six months after > > the > > Proclamation has ceased to operate. > > > > (2) The Legislative Council shall not be subject to dissolution but as > > nearly as possible one-third of the members thereof shall retire, as > > soon as > > may be, on the expiration of every second year in accordance with the > > provisions made in that behalf by Legislature by law. > > > > 53. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall from time to time summon each House of > > the > > Legislature to meet at such time and place as he thinks fit, but six > > months > > shall not intervene between its last sitting in one session and the date > > appointed for its first sitting in the next session. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may from time to time... > > > > (a) prorogue the House or either house (b) dissolve the Legislative > > Assembly. > > > > 54. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may address either House of Legislature, or > > both > > Houses assembled together, and may for that purpose require the > > attendance > > of members. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may send messages to either House, whether with > > respect to a Bill then bending in the Legislature, or otherwise and a > > House > > to which any message is so sent shall with all convenient dispatch > > consider > > any matter required by the message to be taken into consideration. > > > > 55. (1) At the commencement of the first session after each general > > election > > to the Legislative Assembly and at the commencement of the first session > > of > > each year, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall address both Houses of Legislature > > assembled together and inform the Legislature of the cause of its > > summons. > > > > (2) Provision shall be made by the rules regulating the procedure of > > either > > House for the allot-ment of time for discussion of the matters reffered > > to > > in such address. > > > > 56. Every Minister and the Advocate General shall have the right to > > speak > > in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings, of both Houses and to > > speak in, and otherwise to to take part in the proceedings of, any > > Committee-of the Legislature of which he may be named a member, but > > shall > > not, by virtue of this section, be entitled to vote. > > > > *OFFICERS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > 57. The Legislative Assembly shall, as soon as may be, choose two > > members of > > the Assembly to be res-pectively Speaker and Deputy Speaker thereof and, > > so > > often at office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant, the > > Assembly > > shall choose another member to be Speaker, or Deputy Speaker, as the > > case > > may be. > > > > 58. A member holding office as Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the > > Legislative > > Assembly: > > > > (a) shall vacate his office if he ceases to be a member of the Assembly; > > > > (b) may at any time by writing under his hand addressed, if such member > > is > > the Speaker, to the Deputy Speaker, and if such member is the Deputy > > Speaker, to the Speaker, resign his office; and > > > > (c) may be removed from his office by a resolu-tion of the Assembly > > passed > > by a majority of all the then members of the Assembly; > > > > Provided that no resolution for the purpose of clause (c) shall be moved > > unless at least fourteen days notice has been given of the intention to > > move > > the resolution. > > > > Provided further that, whenever the Assembly is dissolved, the Speaker > > that > > not vacate his office until immediately before the first meeting of the > > Assembly after the dissolution. > > > > 59. (1) While the office of Speaker is vacant the duties of the office > > shall > > be performed by the Deputy Speaker or, if the office of the Deputy > > Speaker > > is also vacant, by such member of the Assembly as the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > may > > appoint for the purpose. > > > > (2) During the absence of the Speaker from any sitting of the Assembly > > the > > Deputy speaker or, if he is also absent, such person as may be > > determined by > > the rules of procedure of the Assembly, or, if no such person is > > present, > > such other person as may be determined by the Assembly, shall act as > > Speaker. > > > > 60. (1) At any sitting of the Legislative Assembly, while any resolution > > for > > the removal of the Speaker from his office is under consideration, the > > Speaker, or while any resolution for the removal of the Deputy Speaker > > from > > his office is under consideration, the Deputy Speaker shall not, though > > he > > is present, preside and the provisions of sub-section (2) of section 59 > > shall apply inrelation to every such sitting as they apply in relation > > to a > > sitting from which the Speaker or, as the case may be, the Deputy > > Speaker is > > absent. > > > > (2) The Speaker shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to take > > part > > in the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly while any resolu-tion for > > his > > removal from office is under con-sideration in the Assembly and shall, > > notwith-standing anything in section 67, be entitled to vote only in the > > first instance on such resolu-tion or on any other matter during such > > pro-ceedings but not in the case of an equality of votes. > > > > 61. (1) The Legislative Council shall, as soon as may be, choose two > > members > > of the Council to be respectively Chairman and Deputy Chairman thereof > > and, > > so often as the office of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman becomes > > vacant, > > the Council shall choose another member to be Chairman or Deputy > > Chairman, > > as the case may be. > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 58,59 and 60 shall apply in relation to > > the > > Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council with the > > substitution of the words "Chairman" and "Council" for the words > > "Speaker" > > and "Assembly" respectively wherever they occur in those provisions, and > > with the omission of the further proviso to section 58. > > > > 62. There shall be pay to the speaker and the the Deputy Speaker of the > > > > Legislative Assembly and to the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the > > Legislative Council, such salaries and allowances as may be respectively > > fixed by Legislature by law and, until provi-sion in that behalf is so > > made, > > such salaries and allowances as are specified in the Third Schedule. > > > > 63. (1) Each House of the Legislature shall have a separate secretarial > > Staff: > > > > Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as > > preventing > > the creation of posts common to both Houses. > > > > (2) The Legislature may by law regulate the re-cruitment, and the > > conditions > > of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of each House. > > > > (3) Until provision is made by the Legislature under sub-section (2), > > the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may, after consultation with the Speaker of the > > Legislative > > Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case may be, > > make rules regulating the recruitment, and the con-ditions of service of > > > > persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of the Assembly or the > > Council, > > and any rules so made shall have effect subject to the provisions of any > > law > > made under the said sub-section. > > > > *CONDUCT OF BUSINESS* > > > > 64. Every member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative Council > > shall before taking his seat, make and sub-scribe before the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > or some person appointed in that behalf by him an oath or affirmation > > according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. > > > > 65. Save as otherwise provided by the rules of proce-dure of the House, > > the > > quorum to constitute a meeting of the Legislative Assembly and of the > > Legislative Council shall be twenty and ten re-spectively. > > > > 66. A House of the Legislature shall have power to act notwithstanding > > any > > vacancy in the membership thereof, and any proceedings in the > > Legislature > > shall be valid notwithstanding that it is discovered subsequently that > > some > > person who was not entitl-ed so to do sat or voted or otherwise took > > part in > > the proceedings. > > > > 67. (1) Save as otherwise provided in this Constitu-tion, all questions > > at > > any sitting of a House of the Legislature shall be determined by a > > majority > > of votes of the members present and voting, other than the Speaker or > > Chairman, or person acting as such. > > > > (2) The Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such, shall not vote in > > the > > first instance, but shall have and exercise a casting vote in the case > > of an > > equality of votes. > > > > *DISQUALIFICATIONS OF MEMBERS*** > > > > 68. (1) No person shall be a member of both Houses of the Legislature > > and > > provision shall be made by Legislature by law for the vacation by a > > person > > who is chooser a member of both Houses of his seat in one House or the > > other. > > > > (2) If a member of a House of the Legislature resigns his seat by > > writing > > under his hand addressed to tile Speaker or the Chairman, as the case > > may > > be, his s at shall thereupon become vacant. > > > > (3) If for a period of sixty days a member of a House of the Legislature > > is > > without permission of the House absent from all meetings thereof, the > > House > > may declare his seat vacant: > > > > Provided that in computing the said period of sixty days no account > > shall be > > taken of: > > > > (a) such absence caused by reason beyond his control; or > > > > (b) any period during which the House is prorogued or is adjourned for > > more > > than four consecutive days. > > > > 69. (1) A person shall be disqualified for being chosen and for being a > > member of the Legislative Assembly or Legislative Council: > > > > (a) if he holds any office of profit under the Government of India or > > the > > State Govern-ment within the Union of India, other than an office > > declared > > by Legislature by law not to dis-qualify its holder; > > > > (b) if he is of unsound mind and stands so declared by a competent > > court; > > > > (c) if he is an undischarged insolvent; > > > > (d) if he is not a permanent resident of the State or has voluntarily > > acquired the citizenship of a foreign State, or is under any > > acknowledgement > > of allegiance to adherence to a foreign State; > > > > (e) if he is so disqualified by or under any law made by the > > Legislature. > > > > (2) For the purposes of this section, a person shall not be deemed to > > hold > > an office of profit under the Government of India, the State Government > > or > > any other State Government vithin the Union of India, by reason only > > that he > > is a Minister, or a Deputy Minister. > > > > 70. (1) If it is represented to the Speaker or the Chairman that a > > member > > of the Legislative Assembly or, as the case may be, of the Legis-lative > > Council is disqualified for being such a member under the provisions of > > section 69, or > > was so disqualified at any time since being chosen as a member and the > > member does not admit that he is or was so disqualified, the question > > shall > > be referred to the High Court decision and its decision shall be final: > > > > Provided that w here the disqualification in question arises from > > circumstances which subsisted at the time of his being chosen as such > > member, no such representation as aforesaid shall be entertained: > > > > (a) unless it is made after the expiration of the period by law for > > presenting an elec-tion petition calling in question the election of the > > member; and > > > > (b) if such an election petition is pending or has been tried, unless > > the > > Speaker or Chairman as the case may be is satisfied that the question of > > the > > members' disquali-fication by reason of those circumstances has not been > > > > raised or, as the case may be, was not raised, in the proceedings on the > > election petition. > > > > (2) Where on a representation made under sub-section (I) the member > > admits > > that he is or w. s disqualified under the provisions of section 69, or > > where > > on a reference made under that sub-section the High Court decides that > > the > > member is or was so disqualified, his seat shall thereupon become > > vacant. > > > > 71. If a person sits or votes as a member of the Legislative Assembly or > > the > > Legislative Council before he has complied with the requirements of > > section > > 54 or when he knows that he is not quali-fied or that he is disqualified > > for > > membership thereof or that he is prohibited from so doing by the > > provisions > > of any law made by the Legislature, he shall be liable in respect of > > each > > day on which he so sits or votes to a penalty of one hundred rupees to > > be > > recovered as a debt due to the State. > > > > *POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND ITS > > MEMBERS* > > > > 72. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the rules > > and > > standing orders regulating the procedure of the Legislature, there shall > > be > > freedom of speech in the Legislature. > > > > (2) No member of the Legislature shall be liable to any proceedings in > > any > > court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in the > > Legislature or any committee thereof and no person shall be so liable in > > respect of the publication by or under the authority of a House of the > > Legislature of any report, paper, votes, or proceedings. > > > > (3) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of a House > > of > > the Legislature and- of the members and the committees of a House of the > > Legislature shall be such as may from time to time be defined by > > Legislature > > by law, and until so defined shall be those of the Parliament of India > > and > > of its members and committees. > > > > (4) The provisions of sub-sections (1), (2) and (3) shall apply in > > relation > > to persons who by virtue of this Constitution have the right t o speak, > > in > > and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of, a House of the > > Legislature > > or any committee thereof as they apply in relation to members of that > > Legislature. > > > > 73. Members of the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council > > shall be > > entitled to receive such salaries and allowances as may from time to > > time be > > determined by Legislature by law and, until provision in that respect is > > so > > made, salaries and allowances at such rates and upon such conditions as > > were > > immediately before the commencement of this Constitution applicable in > > the > > case of members of the Constituent Assembly. > > > > *LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURE* > > > > 74. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 76 and 84 with respect to > > Money Bills and other Finan-cial Bills, a Bill may originate in either > > House > > of the Legislature. > > > > (2) Subject to the provisions of sections 75 and 76 a Bill shall not be > > deemed to have been passed by the Legislature unless it has been agreed > > to > > by both Houses, either without amendment or with such amendments only as > > are > > agreed to by both Houses. > > > > (3) A Bill pending in the Legislature shall not lapse by reason of the > > prorogation of the House or House thereof. > > > > (4) A Bill pending in the Legislative Council which has not been passed > > by > > the Legislative Assembly shall not lapse on a dissolution of the > > Assembly. > > > > (5) A Bill which is pending in the Legislative Assembly or which having > > been > > passed by the Legislative Assembly, is pending in the Legi-slative > > Council, > > shall lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly > > > > 75. (1) If after a Bill has been passed by the Legisla-tive Assembly and > > transmitted to the Legisla-tive Council: > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > (b) more than three months elapse from the date on which the Bill is > > laid > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Legisl-ative Assembly may, > > subject > > to the rules regulating its procedure, pass the Bill again in the same > > or in > > any subse-quent session with or without such amendments, if any, as have > > > > been made suggested or agreed to by the Legislative Council and then > > transmit the Bill as so passed to the Legislative Council. > > > > (2) If after a Bill has been so palmed for the se-cond time by the > > legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council: > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > (b) more shall one month elapses from the date on which the Bill is laid > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; > > > > the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Houses of the > > Legislature in the form in which it passed by the Legislative Assembly > > for > > the second time with such amendments, if any, as have been made or > > suggested > > by the Legislative Council and agreed to by the Legislative Assembly. > > > > (3) Nothing in this section shall apply to a Money Bill. > > > > 76. (1) A Money Bill shall not be introduced in the Legislative Council. > > > > (2) After a Money Bill has been passed by the Legislative Assembly, it > > shall > > be transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommenda-tions and > > the > > Legislative Council shall within a period of fourteen days from the date > > of > > its receipt of the Bill return the Bill to the Legis-lative Assembly > > with > > its recommendations, and the Legislative Assemble may there upon either > > accept or reject all or any of the recom-mendations of the Legislative > > Council. > > > > (3) If the Legislative Assembly accepts any of the recommendations of > > the > > Legislative Council, the Money Bil] shall deemed to have been passed by > > both > > Houses with the amend-ments recommended by the Legislative Coun-cil and > > accepted by the Legislative Assembly. > > > > (4) If the Legislative Assembly does not accept any of the > > recommendations > > of the Legislative Council, the Money Bill shall be deemed to have been > > passed by both Houses in the form which it was passed by the Legislative > > > > Assembly without any of the amendments recommended by the Legislative > > Council. > > > > 5. If a Money Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly and transmitted to > > the > > Legislative Council for its recommendations is not returned to the > > Legislative Assembly within the said period of fourteen days, it shall > > be > > deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the said > > period in the form in which it was passed by the Legislative Assembly. > > > > 77. (1) For the purposes of the part, a Bill shall be deemed to be a > > Money > > Bill if it contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the > > following > > matters namely: > > > > (a) the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of > > any > > tax; > > > > (b) the regulation of the borrowing of money or the giving of any > > guarantee > > by the State, or the amendment of the law with respect to any financial > > obligations under-taken or to be undertaken by the State; > > > > (c) the custody of the Consolidated Fund or the Contingency Fund of the > > State, the payment of money into or the with-drawal of moneys from any > > such > > Fund: > > > > (d) the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the > > State; > > > > (e) the declaring of any expenditure to be expenditure charges on the > > consolidated Fund of the State, or the increasing of the amount of any > > such > > expenditure; > > > > (f) the receipt of money on account of the Consolidated Fund of the > > State or > > the public account of the State or the custody or issue of such money; > > or > > any matter incidental to any of the matters specified in clauses (a) to > > (f). > > > > (2) A Bill shall not be deemed to be a Money Bill by reason only that it > > > > provides for the imposition of fines or other pecuniary penalties or for > > the > > demand or payment of fees for lice-nces or fees for services rendered, > > or by > > reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, > > alteration > > or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local > > purposes. > > > > (3) If any question arises whether a Bill introduced in the Legislature > > is a > > Money Bill or not, the decision of the Speaker of the Legislative > > Assembly > > thereon shall be final. > > > > (4) There shall be endorsed an every Money Bill when it is transmitted > > to > > the Legislative Council under section 76 and when it is pre-sented to > > the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent under section 78, the certificate of the > > Speaker > > of the Legislative Assembly signed by him that it is a Money Bill. > > > > 78. When a Bill has been passed by both Houses of the Legislature, it > > shall > > be presented to the Sadar--i-Riyasat and the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall > > declare > > either that he assents to the Bill or that he with-holds assent > > therefrom. > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, as soon as possible after the > > presentation to him of the Bill for assent, return the Bill if it is not > > a > > Money Bill together with a message requesting that the Houses will > > reconsider the Bill or any specified provisions thereof and, in > > particular, > > will consider the desira-bility of introducing any such amendments as he > > may > > recommend in his message and, when a Bill is so returned, the Houses > > shall > > reconsider the Bill accordingly, and if the Bill is passed again by the > > Houses with or without amendment and presented to the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > for > > assent, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not withhold assent therefrom. > > > > *PROCEDURE IN FINANCIAL MATTERS* > > > > 79. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall in respect of every financial year > > cause > > to be laid before both Houses of the Legislature a statement of the > > estimated receipts and expenditure of the State for that year, in this > > part > > referred to as the "annual financial statement." (2) The estimates of > > expenditure embodied in the annual financial statement shall show > > separately > > > > (a) the sums required to meet expenditure described by this constitution > > as > > expendi-ture charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State; and > > > > (b) the sums required to meet other expendi-ture proposed to be made > > from > > the con-solidated Fund of the State; and shall distinguish expenditure > > on > > revenue account from other expenditure. > > > > (3) The following expenditure shall be expenditure charged on the > > consolidated fund of the State: > > > > (a) the emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and other > > expenditure relating to his office; > > > > (b) the salaries and allowances of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of > > the > > Legislative Assembly and of the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the > > Legislative Council; > > > > (c) debt charges for which the State is liable including interest, > > sinking > > fund charges and redemption charges. and other expenditure relating to > > the > > raising of loans and the service and redemption of debt; > > > > (d) expenditure in respect of the salaries and allowances of the Judges > > of > > the High Court; > > > > (e) any sums required to satisfy any judge-ment decree or award of any > > Court > > or arbitral tribunal; > > > > (f) any other expenditure declared by this Constitution, or by > > Legislature > > by law, to be so charged. > > > > 80. (1,) So much of the estimates as relates to expen-diture changed > > upon > > the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be submitted to the vote of > > the > > Legislative Assembly, but nothing in this sub-section shall be construed > > as > > preven-ting the discussion in the Legislature of any those estimates. > > > > (2) So much of the said estimates as relates to other expenditure shall > > be > > submitted in the form of demands for grants to the Legislative Assembly, > > and > > the Legislative Assembly shall have power to assent, or to refuse to > > assent, > > to any demand, or to assent to any demand subject to a reduction of the > > amount specified therein. > > > > (3) No demand for a grant shall be made except on the recommendation of > > the > > Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > (1) As soon as may be after the grants under section 80 have been made > > by > > the Assembly, there shall be introduced a Bill to provide for the > > appropriation out of the Consolidated fund of the State of all moneys > > required to meet: > > > > (a) the grants so made by the Assembly; and (b) the expenditure charged > > on > > the Consoli-dated Fund of the State but not exceed-ing in any case the > > amount shown in the statement previously laid before the Houses. > > > > (23 No amendment shall be proposed to any such Bill in either House of > > the > > Legislature which will have the effect of varying the amount or altering > > the > > destination of any grant to made or of varying the amount of any > > expenditure > > charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State, and the decision of the > > person presiding as to whether an amendment is inadmissible under the > > sub-section shall be final. > > > > (3) Subject to the provisions of sections 89 and 83, no money shall be > > withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund of the State except under > > appropriation > > made by law passed in accor-dance with the provisions of this section > > > > 12. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall: > > > > (a) if the amount authorised by any law made in accordance with > > provisions > > of section 81 to be expended for a particular service for the current > > financial year is found to be insufficient for the purposes of that year > > or > > when a need has arisen during the current financial year for > > supplemen-tary > > or additional expenditure upon some new service not contemplated in the > > annual financial statement for that year; or > > > > (b) if any money has been spent on any ser-vice during a financial year > > in > > excess of the amount granted for the service and for that year, cause to > > be > > laid before the Houses of the Legislature another statement showing the > > estimated amount of that expenditure or cause to be presented to the > > Legis-lative Assembly a demand for such excess, as the case may be. > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 79, 80 and 81 shall have effect in > > relation > > to any such statement and expenditure or demand and also to any law to > > be > > made authorising the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated > > Fund of > > the State to meet such expenditure or the grant in respect of such > > demand as > > they have effect in relation to the annual financial state-ment and the > > expenditure mentioned therein or to a demand for grant and the law to be > > > > 'made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the > > Consolidated Fund of the state to meet such expenditure or grant. > > > > 83. (1) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this > > Part, > > the Legislative Assem-bly shall have power: > > > > (a) to make any grant in advance in respect of the estimated expenditure > > for > > a part of any financial year pending the completion of the procedure > > prescribed in section 80 for the voting of such grant and the pas-sing > > of > > the law in accordance with the provisions of section 81 in relation to > > that > > expenditure; > > > > (b) to make a grant for meeting an unexpec-ted demand upon the resources > > of > > the State when on account of the magnitude or the indefinite character > > of > > the services the demand cannot be stated with the details ordinarily > > given > > in an annual financial statement; > > > > (c) to make an exceptional grant which forms no part of the current > > service > > of any financial year; > > and the Legislature shall have power to authorise by law the withdrawal > > of > > moneys from the Consolidated Fund of the State for the purposes for > > which > > the said grants are made. > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 80 and 81 shall have effect in relation > > to > > the making of any grant under sub-section (1) and to law to be made > > under > > that sub-section as they have effect in relation to the making of a > > grant > > with regard to any expenditure mentioned h1 the annual financial > > statement > > and the law to be made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys > > out > > of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure. > > > > 84. (1) A bill or amendment making provision for any of the matters > > specified in clauses (a) to (f) of sub-section (1) of section 77 shall > > not > > be introduced or moved except on the recom-mendation of the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > and a Bill making such provision shall not be introdu-ced in the > > Legislative > > Council: > > > > Provided that no recommendation shall be required under this sub-section > > for > > the moving of an amendment making provision for the reduction or > > abolition > > of any tax. > > > > (2) A Bill or amendment shall not be deemed to make provision for any of > > the > > matters afore-said by reason only that it provides for the. imposition > > of > > fines or other pecuniary penal-ties, or for the demand or payment of > > fees > > for licences or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it > > provides > > for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of > > any > > tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. > > > > (3) A Bill which, if enacted and brought into operation. would involve > > expenditure from the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be passed > > by a > > House of the Legislature unless the Sadar-i-Riyasat has recommended to > > that > > House the consideration of the Bill. > > > > *PROCEDURE GENERALLY* > > > > 85. (1) A House of the Legislature may make rules for regulating, > > subject to > > the provisions of this Constitution, its procedure and the con-duct of > > its > > business. > > > > (2) Until rules are made under sub-section (1), the rules of procedure > > and > > standing orders in force immediately before the commencement of this > > Constituent Assembly while discharging the functions of the Legislative > > Assembly shall have effect in relation to each House of the Legislature > > subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be made therein by > > the > > Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative > > Council, as the case may be. > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, after consultation with the Speaker of the > > Legislative Assembly and the Chairman of the Legislative Council, may > > make- > > rules as to the procedure with respect to communications between the two > > Houses. > > > > 86. The Legislature may, for the purpose of the timely completion of > > financial business, regulate by law the procedure of, and the conduct of > > > > business in. the House of the Legislature in relation to any financial > > matter or to any Bill for the appropria-tion of moneys out of the > > Consolidated Fund of the State, and, if and so far as any provision of > > any > > law so made is inconsistent with any rule made by either House of the > > Legislature under sub-section (I) of section 85 or with any rule of > > standing > > order having effect in relation to either House of the Legislature under > > > > sub-section (2) of that section such provisions shall prevail. > > > > 87. Business in the Legislature shall be transacted in Urdu or in > > English. > > > > (1) Provided that the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the > > Chairman of > > the Legislative Council or person acting as such, as the case may be, > > may > > permit any member to address the House in Hindi, or if he cannot > > adequa-tely > > express himself in any of the aforesaid languages, to address the House > > in > > his mother-tongue. > > > > (2) The official records of the proceedings in the Legislature shall be > > kept > > in Urdu as well as in English. > > > > (3) The text of all Bills and amendments there of moved in and of all > > Acts > > passed by the Legis-lature which shall be treated as authoritative, > > shall be > > in English. > > > > 88. No discussion shall take place in the Legislature with respect to > > the > > conduct of any Judge of the Supreme Court or of the High Court in the > > discharge of his duties. > > > > 89. (1) The validity of any proceedings in the Legis-lature shall not be > > called in question -on the gro-unds of any alleged irregularity of > > procedure. > > > > (2) No officer or member of the Legislature in whom powers are vested > > by > > or under this Constitution for regulating procedure or the conduct of > > Business, or for maintaining order, in the Legislature shall be subject > > to > > the juris-diction of any court in respect of the exercise by him of > > those > > powers. > > > > 90. No Act of the Legislature and no provision in any such Act shall be > > invalid by reason only that some recommendation required by this > > Constitution was not given, if assent to that Act was given by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > Legislative power of the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > 91. (1) If at any time, except when both Houses of the Legislature are > > in > > session, the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that circumstances exist which > > > > render it necessary for him to take immediate action; he may promulgate > > such > > Ordinances as the circums-tances appear to him to require. > > Provided that the power of making Ordinance under this Section shall > > extend > > only to those matters with respect to which the Legislature has power to > > make laws. > > > > (2) An Ordinance promulgated under this section shall have the same > > force > > and effect as an Act of the Legislature assented to by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > but every such Ordinance: > > > > (a) shall be laid before both the Houses of the Legislature, and shall > > cease > > to operate at the expiration of six weeks from the re-assembly of the > > Legislature, or if be-fore tile expiration of that period a reso-lution > > disapproving it is passed by the Legislative Assembly and agreed to by > > Legislative Council, upon the resolution being agreed to by the > > Legislative > > Coun-cil, and - > > > > (b) may be withdrawn at any time by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > Explanation: - Where the Houses of the Legislature are summoned to > > re-assemble on different dates the period of six weeks shall be reckoned > > from the latter of those dates for the purposes of this sub-section. > > > > Breakdown of Constitutional Machinery. > > > > 92. (1) If at any time the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that a situation > > has > > arisen in which the Government of the State cannot be carried on in > > accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > may > > by Proclamation: > > > > (a) assume to himself all or any of the func-tions of the Government of > > the > > State and all or any of the powers vested in or excercisable by anybody > > or > > authority in the State; > > > > (b) make such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to the > > Sadar-i--Riyasat to be necessary or desirable for giving effect to the > > objects of the Procla-mation, including provisions for suspen-ding in > > whole > > or in part the operation of any provision of this Constitution rela-ting > > to > > any body or authority in the State: > > > > Provided that nothing in this section shall authorised die > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > to assume to himself any of the powers vested in or exer-cisable by the > > High > > Court or to suspend in whole or in part the operation of any provi-sion > > of > > this Constitution relating to the High Court. > > > > (2) Any such Proclamation may be revoked or carried by a subsequent > > Proclamation. > > > > (3) Any such Proclamation whether varied under sub-section (2) or not, > > shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous > > Proclama-tion, > > cease to operate on the expiration of six months from the date on which > > it > > divas first Issued. > > > > (4) If the Sadar-i-Riyasat by a Proclamation under this section assumes > > to > > himself any of the powers of the legislature to make laws, any law made > > by > > him in the exercise of that power shall, subject to the terms thereof, > > continue to have effect until two years have elapsed from the date on > > which > > the Proclamation ceases to have effect, unless sooner repealed or > > re-enacted > > by an Act of the Legislature, and any reference in this Constitution to > > any > > Acts of or laws made by the Legislature shall be construed as including > > a > > reference to such law. No Proclamation under sub-section (1) shall be > > issued > > except with the concurrence of the President of India. > > > > (6) Every Proclamation under this section shall, except where it is a > > Proclamation revoking a previous Proclamation, be laid before each house > > of > > the Legisiature as soon as it is convened. > > > > *PART VII* > > *THE HIGH COURT* > > > > 93. (1) There shall be a High Court for the State, consisting of a Chief > > Justice and two or more other judges. > > > > (2) The High Court exercising jurisdiction in relation to the State > > Immediately before the commencement of this Constitution shall be the > > High > > Court for the State. > > > > 94. The High Court shall be a court of record and shall have all the > > powers > > of such a courts including the power to punish for contempt of itself or > > of > > the courts subordinate to it. > > > > 95. Every Judge of the High Court shall be appointed by the President by > > Warrant under his hand and seal after consultation with the Chief > > Justice of > > India, the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and in the case of appointment of a Judge > > other > > than the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice of the High Court and shall > > hold > > office until he attains the age of sixty years. > > > > 96. A person shall not be qualified for appointment as a Judge of the > > High > > Court unless he is a citizen of India, and: > > > > (a) has for at least ten years held a judicial office in the State or in > > any > > other part of India; or > > > > (b) has for at least ten years been an advocate of the State High Court > > or > > of any other High Court in India or of two or more such courts in > > succession. > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this Section in omputing the period > > during which a person has been an advocate of a High Court. there shall > > be > > included any period during which the person has held judicial office > > after > > he became an advocate. > > > > 97. Every person appointed to be a Judge of the High > > Court, shall. before he enters upon his office, make an subscribe before > > the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him, an oath > > or > > affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > > Schedule. > > > > 98. (1) There shall be paid to the Judges of the High > > Court such salaries as are specified in the Fourth Schedule. > > > > (a) Every Judge shall be entitled to such allowan-ces and to such rights > > in > > respect of leave of absence and pension as may from time to time be > > determined by or under law made by the Legislature, and until so > > determined, > > to such allowances and rights as are specified in the Fourth Schedule: > > > > Provided that neither the allowances of a Judge nor his rights in > > respect of > > leave of absence or pension shall be varied to his dis-advantage after > > his > > appointment: > > > > 99. (1) A Judge of the High Court may, by writing under his hand > > addressed > > to the President, resign his office. > > > > (2) A Judge of the High Court shall not be removed from his office > > except by > > an order of the President passed after an address by each House of the > > Legislature supported by a majority of the total membership of that > > House > > and by a majority of not less than two- thirds of the members of that > > House > > present and voting has been presented to the president > > in the same session for such removal on the > > ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity. > > > > (3) The Legislature may by law regulate the procedure for the > > presentation > > of an address and for the investigation and proof of the misbehaviour or > > incapacity of a Judge under sub-section (2). > > > > 100. (1) When the office of the Chief Justice is vacant or when the > > Chief > > Justice is by reason of absence or otherwise, unable to perform the > > duties > > of his office, the duties of the office shall be performed by such one > > of > > the other > > Judges of the Court as the President may appoint for the purpose. > > > > (2) When any Judge of the High Court other than the Chief Justice is by > > reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the duties > > of > > his office or is appointed to act temporarily as Chief Justice, the > > President may appoint a duly qualified person to act as a Judge of the > > Court > > until the permanent Judge has resumed his duties. > > > > 101. (1) The usual places of sitting of the High Court shall be Jammu > > and > > Srinagar. > > > > (2) The Chief Justice shall, with the approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > determine the number of Judges who shall sit from time to time at Jammu > > and > > at Srinagar for such period as may be deemed necessary. > > > > (3) Whenever it appears to the Chief Justice that it is desirable that > > the > > High Courts should hold its sitting at a place other than Srinagar and > > Jummu, one or more Judges of the High Court as determined by him shall, > > with > > the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, sit at such place. > > > > 102. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the > > provisions of > > any law for the time being in force, the jurisdiction of and the law > > administered in the High Court and the respective powers of the Judges > > thereof in relation to the administration of justice in the court, > > including > > any power to make rules of court and to regulate the sittings of the > > court > > and of members thereof, sitting alone or in Division Courts, shall be > > the > > same as immedia-tely before the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > 103. The High Court shall have power to issue to any person or > > authority, > > including in appropriate cases any Government within the State, > > directions, > > orders or writs. including writs in the nature of habeas corpus, > > mandamus, > > prohibition, quo warranto and certiorari, or any of them. for any > > purpose > > other than those mentioned in clause (2A) of article 32 of the > > Constitution > > of India. > > > > 104. (1) The High Court shall have superintendence and control over all > > courts for the time being subject to its appellate or revisional > > jusrisdic-tion and all such courts shall be subordinate to the High > > Court. > > > > (I) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, the > > High > > court may: > > > > (a) call for returns from such courts, > > > > (b) make and issue general rules and prescribe forms for regulating the > > practice and pro-ceedings of such courts; and > > > > (c) Prescribe forms in which books, entries and accounts shall be kept > > by > > the officers of any such court. > > > > (3) The High Court may also settle tables of fees to be allowed to the > > sheriff and all clerks and officers of such courts and to attorneys, > > advo-cates and pleaders practicing therein: > > Provided that any rules made, forms prescrib-ed or tables settled under > > sub-section (2) or sub-section(3) shall not be inconsistent with the > > provision of any law for the time being in force, and shall require the > > previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > 105. If the High Court is satisfied that a case pending in a court > > subordinate to it involves a substantial question of law as to the > > interpretation of this Constitution or the Constitution of India the > > deter-mination of which is necessary for the disposal of the case, it > > shall > > withdraw the case and may: > > > > (a) either dispose of the case itself; or > > > > (b) determine the said question of law and return the case to the court > > from > > which the case has been so withdrawn together with a copy of its > > judgement > > on such question, and the said court shall on receipt thereof proceed to > > dispose of the case in conformity with such judgement. > > > > 106. No person who had held office as a Judge of the > > High Court after the commencement of this Con-stitution shall plead or > > act > > in any court or before any authority within the State. > > > > 107. (1) The High Court shall have and use as occa-sion may require a > > seal > > bearing a device and impression of the State emblem with an exergue or > > label > > surrounding the same with the inscription: > > > > "The seal of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir'' > > > > (2) The seal shall be delivered to. and kept in the custody of, the > > Registrar or such other officer of the court as the Chief Justice may > > designate in this behalf. > > > > 108. (1) Appointments of officers and servants of the High Court shall > > be > > made by the Chief Justice of the court or such other judge or officer of > > the > > court as he may direct: > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by rule require that in such cases > > as > > may be specified in the rule no person not already attached to the court > > shall be appointed to any office connected with the court save after > > consulta-tion with the State Public Service Commis-sion. > > > > (I) Subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the > > conditions of service of the officers and servants of the High Court > > shall > > be such as may be prescribed by rules made by the High Court with the > > approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > (3) The administrative expenses of the High Court including all > > salaries, > > allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the officers and > > servants of the Court' shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fund of > > the > > State, and any fees or other moneys taken by the Court shall form part > > of > > that Fund. > > > > *SUBORDINATE COURTS* > > > > 109. (1) Appointment of persons to be, and the postings: and promotion > > off > > district judges in the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in > > con-sultation with the High Court. > > (2) A person not already in the service of the : State shall only be > > eligible to be appointed a district judge if he has been for not less > > than > > seven years an advocate or pleader and is recommended by the High Court > > for > > appointment. > > > > 110. Appointment of persons other than district judges to the judicial > > service of the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in accordance > > with > > rules made by him in that behalf after consulation with the Public > > Service > > Commission and with the High Court. > > > > 111. The control over district courts and courts sub-ordinate thereto > > including the posting and promo-tion of, and the grant of leave to, > > persons > > belong-ing to the judicial service of the State and holding any post > > inferior to the post of district judge shall be vested in the High > > Court, > > but nothing in this section shall be construed as taking away from any > > such > > person any right of appeal which he may have under the law regulating > > the > > conditions of his service or as authorising the High Court to deal with > > him > > otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of his service > > prescribed > > under such law. > > > > 112. In this part... > > > > (a) the expression "district judge'' includes additional district judge, > > > > assistant district judge, sessions judge, additional sessions judge and > > assistant sessions judge: > > > > (b) the expression "judical service" means a service consisting > > exclusively > > of persons inten-ded to fill the post of district judge, and other civil > > > > judicial posts inferior to the post of dis-trict judge. > > > > 113. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be public notification direct that the > > foregoing provisions of this part and any rules made thereunder shall > > with > > effect from such date as may be fixed by him in that behalf apply in > > relation to any class or classes of magis-trates in the State as they > > apply > > in relation to any persons appointed to the judicial service of the > > State > > Subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified in the > > notification. > > > > *PART VIII* > > *FINANCE, PROPERTY AND CONTRACTS* > > > > 114. No tax shall be levied or collected except by authority of law. > > > > 115. (1) Subject to the provisions of section 116, all revenues > > received by > > the Government, all loans raised by the Government by the issue of > > treasury bills, loans or ways and means advances and all moneys received > > by > > Government in repayment of loaned shall form one consolidated fund to be > > > > entitled "the Consolidated Fund of the State." > > (2) All other public moneys received by or on behalf of the Government > > shall > > be credited to the public account of the State. > > (3) No moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State shall be > > appropriated except in accordance with law and for the purposes and in > > the > > manner provided in this Constitution. > > > > 116. The Legislature may by law establish a Contingency Fund in the > > nature > > of an impress to be entitled > > "the Contingency Fund of the State" into which shall be paid from time > > to > > time such sums as may be determined by such law, and the said Fund shall > > be > > placed at the disposal of the Sadar-i--Riyasat to enable advances to be > > made > > by him out of such fund for the purposes of meeting unforeseen > > expenditure > > pending authorisation of such expendi-ture by Legislature by law under > > section 82 or 83. > > > > 117. The State may make any grants for any public purpose, > > notwithstanding > > that the purpose is not one with expect to which the Legislature may > > make. > > > > 118. The custody of the Consolidated Fund of the State and the > > Contingency > > Funds of the State, the payment of moneys into such funds, the > > withdrawal of > > moneys therefrom, the custody of public moneys other than those credited > > to > > such Fund received by or on behalf of the Government, their payment into > > the > > public account of the State and the withdrawal of moneys from such > > account > > and all other matters connected with or ancillary to matters aforesaid > > shall > > be regulated by law made by the Legislature and, until provision in that > > behalf is so made, shall be regulated by rules made by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > 119. All moneys received by or deposited with: > > > > (a) any officer employed in connection with the affairs of the State in > > his > > capacity as such, other than revenues or public moneys raised or > > received by > > the Government; or > > > > (b) an, court within the State to the credit of any cause, matter, > > account > > or persons, shall be paid into the public account of the State. > > > > 120. Any property within the State which, if this Constitution had not > > come > > up into operation, would have accrued to the Government or any other > > authority hi the State by escheat or lapse, or as bona-vacantia for want > > of > > a rightful owner, shall vest in the State. > > > > 121. (1) The executive power of the State shall extend, subject to any > > law > > made by the State Legisla-ture, to the carrying on of any trade or > > busi-ness, and to the grant, scale, disposition or mortgage of any > > property > > held for the purposes of the State, and to the purchase or acquisi-tion > > of > > property for those purposes and to the making of contracts. > > > > (2) All property acquired for the purposes of the State shall vest in > > the > > State. > > > > 122. (1) All contracts made in the exercise of the executive power of > > the > > State shall be expressed to be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and all such > > contracts and all assurance of property made in the exercise of that > > power > > shall be executed on behalf of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by such persons and > > in > > such manner as he may direct or authorise. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be personally liable in respect of any > > contract or assurance made or executed for the purposes of this > > Constitution, or for the purposes any of enact-ment relating to the > > Government of the State heretofore in force, nor shall any person making > > or > > executing any such contract or assurance on his behalf be personally > > liable > > in respect thereof. > > > > 123. The Government may sue or be sued by the name of the State of Jammu > > and > > Kashmir and may, subject to any provisions which may be made by Act of > > the > > Legislature enacted by virtue of powers conferred by this Constitution, > > sue > > or be sued in relation to its affairs in the like cases as the State > > might > > have sued or been sued if this Constitution had not been enacted. > > > > *PART IX* > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE* > > > > 124. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may > > by > > law regulate the recruitment and conditions of service of persons > > appointed, > > to public services and posts in connection with the affairs of the > > State: > > > > Provided that it shall be competent for the Sadar--i-Riyasat or such > > person > > as he may direct, to make rules regulating the recruitment and the > > conditions of services of persons appointed, to such services and posts > > until provisions in that behalf is made by or under an Act of the > > Legislature under this section, and any rules so made shall effect > > subject > > to the provisions of any such Act. > > > > 125. (1) Except expressly provided by this Constitution, every person > > who is > > a member of a civil service of the State or holds any civil post > > under the State hold office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > (2) Notwithstanding that a person holding a civil post under the State > > holds > > office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, any contract under > > which > > a person, not being a member of a civil service of the State, is > > appointed > > to hold such a post man, if the Sadar-i-Riyasat deems it necessary in > > order > > to secure the services of a person having special qualifications, > > provide > > for tile payment to him of compensation, if before the expiration of an > > agreed period that post is abolished or he is, for reasons not connected > > with any miscon-duct on his part required to vacate that post. > > > > 126. (1) No person who is a member of a civil service of tile State or > > holds > > a civil post under the State shall be distressed or removed by an > > authority > > subordinate to that by which he was appointed. > > > > (2) No such person as aforesaid shall be dismissed or removed or reduced > > in > > rank until he has been given a reasonable opportunity of show-ing cause > > against the action proposed to be taken in regard to him: > > > > Provided that this sub-section shall not apply: > > > > (a) where a person is dismissed or removed or reduced in rank on the > > ground > > of con-duct which has led to his conviction on a criminal charge; > > > > (b) where an authority empowered to dismiss or remove a person or to > > reduce > > him in rank is satisfied that for some reason, to be recorded by that > > authority in writing, it is not reasonably practicable to give to that > > person an opportunity of showing cause; or > > > > (c) where the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that in the interests of the > > security of the State it is not expedient to give to that person such an > > opportunity. > > > > (3) If any question arises whether it is reasonably > > practicable to give to any person an oppor-tunity of showing cause under > > sub-section. > > > > (4) The decision thereon of the authority empo-wered to dismiss or > > remove > > such person or to reduce him in rank, as the case may be, shall be > > final. > > > > 127. Until other Provisional is made in this behalf under the > > constitution, > > all the laws in force im-mediately before the commencement of this > > Consti-tution and applicable to any public service or any post which > > continues to exist after the commence-ment of this Constitution as > > service > > or post under the- State, shall continue in force so far as consistent > > with > > the provisions of this Constitu-tion. > > > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION* > > > > 128. There shall be a Public Service Commission (here-inafter referred > > to in > > this Part as "the Commi-ssion" for the State. > > > > 129. (1) The Chairman and other members of the Commission shall be > > appointed > > by the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > Provided that as nearly as may be one-half of the members of the > > Commission > > shall be persons who at the dates of their respective appointments have > > held > > office for at least ten years under the Government. > > > > (2) A member of the Commission shall hold office of a terms of five > > years > > from the date on which he enters upon his office or until he attains the > > age > > of sixty-five years, whichever is earlier: > > > > Provided that: > > > > (a) a member of the Commission may, by writing under his hand addressed > > to > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, resign his office > > > > (b) a member of the Commission may be removed from his office in the > > manner > > hereinafter provided. > > > > (3) A person who holds office as a member of the Commission shall on the > > expiration of his term of office, be ineligible for re-appointment to > > that > > office. > > > > 130. (1) Subject to the provisions of sub-section (3), the Chairman or > > any > > other member of the Commission shall only be removed from his office by > > order of the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the ground of misbehaviour after the > > High > > Court on reference being made to it by the Sadar-i--Riyasat, has, on > > inquiry > > held in that behalf, reported that the Chairman or such other member, as > > the > > case may be ought on any such ground to be removed. > > > > The Sadar-i-Riyasat may suspend from office the Chairman or any other > > member > > of the Commission in respect of whom a reference has been made to the > > High > > Court under sub-section (l) until the Sadar-i-Riyasat has passed orders > > on > > receipt of the report of the High Court on such reference. > > > > (3) Notwithstanding anything in sub-section (1) the Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > by > > order remove from office the Chairman or any other mem-ber of the > > Commission > > if the Chairman on. such other member, as the case may be - > > > > (a) is adjudged an insolvent; or > > > > (b) engages during his term of office in any paid employment out side > > the > > duties of his office; or > > > > (c) is, in the opinion of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, unfit to continue in > > office > > by reason of infirmity of mind or body. > > > > (4) If the Chairman or any other member of the Commission is or becomes > > in > > anyway concern-ed or interested in any contract or agreement made by or > > on > > behalf of the Government of the State, the Government of India or the > > Government of any other State in India or participates in anyway in the > > profit thereof or in any benefit or emolument arising therefrom > > otherwise > > than as a member and in common with other members of an incorporated > > company, he shall, for the purposes of sub-section (1), be deemed to be > > guilty misbehavi-our. > > > > 131. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be regulations: > > > > (a) determine the number of members of the Commission and their > > conditions > > of service; and > > > > (b) make provision with respect to the num-ber of members of the staff > > of > > the Commission and - their conditions of service; > > > > Provided that the conditions of service of a member of the Commission > > shall > > not be varied to his disadvantage after his ap-pointment. > > > > 132. On ceasing to hold office the Chairman and the members of the > > Commission shall be ineligible for further office under the Government > > of > > the State, but a member other than the Chairman shall be eligible for > > appointment as a Chairman of the Commission. > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this sec-tion; the office of Minister > > or > > Deputy Minister shall not be deemed to be an office under the Government > > of > > the state. > > > > 133. (1) It shall be the duty of the Commissions to conduct examinations > > for > > appointment to the services of the State. > > > > (2) The Commission shall be consulted - > > > > (a) on all matters relating to methods of recruitment to civil services > > and > > for civil posts; > > > > (b) on the principles to be followed in making appointments to civil > > services and posts and in making promotions and transfers from one > > service > > to another and on the suitability of candidate for such appointments, > > promotions or transfers; > > > > (c) on all disciplinary matters affecting a person serving under the > > Government including memorials or petitions relating to such matters; > > and it shall be the duty of the Commission to advise on any matter so > > referred to them or on any other matter which the Sadar-i--Riyasat may > > refer > > to them: > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may make regulations specifying the > > matters in which either generally, or in any particular class of cases > > or in > > any particular circumstances, it shall not be necessary for the > > Commission > > to be consulted. > > > > (3) Nothing in sub-section (2) shall require the Commission to be > > consulted > > as respects the manner in which a provision may be made by the State for > > the > > reservation of appointment or posts in favour of any class of permanent > > residents which in the opinion of the Govern-ment is not adequately > > represented in the services under the State. > > > > (4) All regulations made under the proviso to sub-section (2) by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be laid for not less than fourteen days before > > each > > House of the Legislature as soon as possible after they made, and shall > > be > > subject to such modifications, whether by way or repeal or amendment, as > > the > > Legislative Assembly may make during the session in which they are so > > laid. > > > > 134. If the office of the Chairman of the Commission becomes vacant or > > if > > the Chairman is by reason of absence or for any other reason unable to > > perform the duties of his office, those duties shall until some person > > appointed under sub-section (1) of section 129 to the vacant office has > > entered on the duties thereof or, as the case may be until the Chairman > > has > > resumed his duties, be performed by such one of the other members of the > > Commission as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may appoint for the purpose. > > > > 135. An Act made by the Legislature may provide for the exercise of > > additional functions by the Commission as respects the services of the > > State > > and also as respects the services of any local authority or other body > > corporate constituted by law or of any public institution. > > > > 136. The expenses of the Commission, including any salaries, allowances > > and > > pensions payable to or in respect of the members or the staff of the > > Com-mission, shall be charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State. > > > > 137. It shall be the duty of the Commission to present annually to the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat a report as to the work done by the Commission and the > > Sadar-I--Riyasat, on receipt of such report, shall cause a copy thereof > > together with a memorandum explai-ning, as respects the cases, if any, > > where > > the advice of the Commission was not accepted, the reasons for such > > non-acceptance to be laid before the Legislature. > > > > *PART X* > > *ELECTIONS* > > > > 138. (1) The superintendence, direction and control of the preparation > > of > > the electoral rolls for, and the conduct of, the elections held under > > Part > > VI shall, be vested in an Election Commissio-ner to be appointed by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, may, for such period as he may deem necessary > > appoint one or more Deputy Election Commissioners to assist the Election > > Commissioner in the per-formance of the functions conferred by > > sub-section > > (1). > > > > (3) subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the > > Conditions of service of the Election Commissioner and the Deputy > > Election > > Commissioner shall be such as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > > > (4) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may make acts viable to the Election > > Commissioner > > such staff as may be necessary for the discharge of the functions > > conferred > > on the Election Commissioner by sub-section (1). > > > > 139. There shall be one general electoral roll for every territorial > > constituency for election to either House of the Legislature and no > > person > > shall be ineligible for inclusion in any such roll or claim to be > > inclu-ded > > in any special electoral roll for any such consti-tuency on grounds only > > of > > religion, race, caste, sex or any of them. > > > > 140. The elections to the Legislative Assembly shall be on the basis of > > adult suffrage; that is to say, every person who is a permanent resident > > of > > the State and who is not less than twenty-one years of age on such date > > as > > may be fixed in that behalf by or under any law made by the Legislature > > and > > is not otherwise disqualified under this Constitution or any law made by > > the > > Legislature on the ground of non-residence, unsoundness of mind, crime > > or > > corruptor illegal practice, shall be registered as a voter at any such > > election. > > > > Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may from > > time to time by law make provision with respect to all matters relating > > to, > > or in connection with elections to either House of the Legislature, > > including the preparation of elec-toral rolls, the delimitation of > > constituencies, appointment of election tribunals and all other matters > > necessary for securing the due constitution of the two Houses. > > > > 142. Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution: > > > > (a) the validity of any law relating to the delimita-tion of territorial > > constituencies for the pur-pose of electing members of the Legislative > > Assembly or the allotment of seats to such constituencies, made or > > purporting to be made under section 141, shall not be called in > > ques-tion in > > any court; > > > > (b) no election to either House of the Legislature shall be called in > > question except by an elec-tion petition present to such authority and > > in > > such manner as may be provided for by or under any law made by the > > Legislature. > > > > *PART XI* > > *MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS* > > > > 143. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be answerable to any court for > > the > > exercise of performance of the powers and duties of his office or for > > any > > act done or purposing to be done by him in the exercise and performance > > of > > those -powers and duties. > > > > Provided that nothing in this subjection-sec-tion shall be construed as > > restricting the right of any person to bring appropriate proceed-ings > > against the Government. > > > > (2) No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or continued > > against the Sadar-I--Riyasat in any court during his term of office. No > > process for the arrest or imprisonment of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall > > issue > > from any court during his term of office. > > > > No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > shall be instituted during his term of office in any court in res-pect > > of > > any act done or purporting to be done by him in his personal capacity, > > whether be-fore or after he entered upon his office as Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > until the expiration of two months next after notice in writing has been > > delivered to the Sadar-i-Riyasat or left at his office stating the > > nature of > > the proceedings the cause of action therefor, the name, descri-ption and > > place of residence of the party by whom such proceedings are to be > > instituted and the relief which he claims. > > > > 144. The flag of the State shall be rectangular in shape and red in > > colour > > with three equidistant white vertical stripes of equal with next to the > > staff and a white plough in the middle with the handle facing the > > stripes. > > > > The ratio of the length of the flag to its width shall be 3:2. > > > > 145. The official language of the State shall be Urdu, but the English > > language shall, unless the Legisla-ture by law otherwise provides > > continue > > to be used for all the official purpose of the State for which it was > > being > > used immediately before the com-mencement of this Constitution. > > > > . The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, as soon as may be, after the commencement > > of > > the Constitution establish an Academy of Arts, Culture and Language, > > where > > opportunities will be afforded for the development of Art and Culture of > > the > > State and for the development of Hindi, Urdu and other regional > > languages of > > the State specified in the Sixth Schedule.** > > > > *PART XII* > > *AMENDMENTS OF THE CONSTITUTION* > > > > 147. An amendment of this constitution may be initia-ted only by the > > introduction of a Bill for the pur-pose in the Legislative Assembly and > > when > > the Bill is passed in each House by a majority of not less than > > two-thirds > > of the total membership of at the House, it shall be presented to the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for his assent and, upon such assent being given to the > > Bill, the Constitution shall stand amended in accordance with the terms > > of > > the Bill: > > > > Provided that a Bill providing for the abolition of the Legislative > > Council > > may be intro-duced in the Legislative Assembly and passed by it majority > > of > > the total membership of the Assembly and by a majority of not less than > > two-thirds of the members of the Assembly present and voting: > > > > Provided further that no Bill or amendment seeking to make any change > > in: > > > > (a) this section; > > > > (b) the provisions of the sections 3 and 5; or > > > > (c) the provisions of the constitution of India as applicable in > > relation to > > the State; > > > > shall be introduced or moved in either house -of the Legislature. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:26:07 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 12:26:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956 - Legal Document No 140 In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0712052252i123d9057j767dafbc79c5c38a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0712052245w34827defg5024615bce1465c4@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712052250w58232c42wdf6452400bd62734@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0712052252i123d9057j767dafbc79c5c38a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712052256t5e728a6cu804e0626dc46b174@mail.gmail.com> Aarti Ji , I never said that you in particular are ignorant of these facts . You are highly intelligent and knowledgable . And I am sure there would be few who would be ignorant about these facts. Maybe ,many of them who do not live in India. regards Pawan On 12/6/07, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > And which "facts" does this extract present us with which you claim we are > in ignorance of? Even more interesting, what makes them "facts"? It might be > fruitful to spend some time thinking about the latter... > > On Dec 6, 2007 12:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Aarti , > > > > Sometimes I feel the readers should be fed with some intresting facts > > which are otherwise ignored. > > > > Pawan > > Was your mail intended for me or the group ? > > > > > > > > On 12/6/07, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > Fascinating. But exactly what is this in aid of? > > > > > > best > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > On Dec 4, 2007 11:42 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > *The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956* > > > > Legal Document No 140 > > > > *(Extract)* > > > > > > > > We, the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having solemnly > > > > resolved, > > > > in pursuance of accession of this State to > > > > India which took place on the twenty-sixth day of October, 1947, to > > > > further > > > > define the existing relationship of the State with the Union of > > > > India as an > > > > integral part thereof, and to secure to ourselves. > > > > > > > > *JUSTICE*, social, economic and political; > > > > *LIBERTY* of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > > EQUALITY of > > > > status and of opportunity; and to promote among us all; > > > > *FRATERNITY*, assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity > > > > of the > > > > Nation; > > > > > > > > *IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY* This seventeenth day of November, 1956 > > > > do > > > > Hereby Adopt Enact and Give to ourselves this constitution. > > > > > > > > *PART I* > > > > *PRELIMINARY* > > > > > > > > 1. (1) this Constitution may be called the Constitution of Jammu and > > > > > > > > Kashmir. > > > > > > > > (2) This section and sections 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 158 shall come > > > > into force > > > > et once and the remaining provisions of this constitution shall come > > > > into > > > > force on the twenty-sixth day of January, 1957, which day is > > > > referred to in > > > > this Constitution as the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > > > > > 2. (I) In this Constitution, unless the context other-wise > > > > requires. > > > > > > > > (a) "Constitution of India" means the Constitu-tion of India as > > > > applicable > > > > in relation to this State. > > > > > > > > (b) "existing law" means any law, ordinance, order bye-law, rule > > > > notification; or regulation based, made or issued before the > > > > commence-ment > > > > of this Constitution by the Legislature or other competent authority > > > > or > > > > person hav-ing power to pass. make or issue such law, ordinance, > > > > order > > > > bye-law rule, notification or regulation; > > > > > > > > (c) "Part" means a part of this Constitution; > > > > > > > > (d) "Schedule" means a schedule to this Constitution; and > > > > > > > > (e) "taxation" includes the imposition of any tax or impost, whether > > > > general > > > > or local or special, and "tax" shall be construed accordingly. > > > > > > > > (2) Any reference in this Constitution to Acts or laws of the State > > > > Legislature shall be construed as in-cluding a reference to an > > > > Ordianance > > > > made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > *PART II* > > > > *THE STATE* > > > > > > > > (3) The State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part > > > > of the > > > > Union of India. > > > > > > > > (4) The territory of the State shall comprise all the territories > > > > which on > > > > the fifteenth day of August, 1947, were under the sovereignty or > > > > suzerainty > > > > of the Ruler of the State. > > > > > > > > (5) The executive and legislative power of the State extends to all > > > > matters > > > > except those with respect to which Parliament has power to make laws > > > > for the > > > > State under the provisions of the Constitution of India. > > > > > > > > *PART III* > > > > *PERMANENT RESIDENTS* > > > > > > > > (6) (l) Every person who is, or is deemed to be, a citizen of India > > > > under > > > > the provisions of the Constitution of India shall be a permanent > > > > resident of > > > > the State, if on the fourteenth day of May, 1954. > > > > > > > > (a) he was a State subject of class I or of class II: or > > > > > > > > (b) having lawfully acquired immovable pro-perty in the State, he > > > > has been > > > > ordinarily resident in the State for not less than ten years prior > > > > to that > > > > date. > > > > > > > > (2) Any person who, before the fourteenth day of May, 1954 was a > > > > State > > > > subject of Class I or of Class II and who, having migrated after the > > > > first > > > > day of March, 1947, to the territory -now included in Pakistan, > > > > returns to > > > > the State under a permit for resettlement in the State or for > > > > permanent > > > > return issued by or under the authority of any law made by the State > > > > > > > > Legislature shall on such return be a permanent resident of the > > > > State. > > > > > > > > (3) In this section, the expression "State subject of Class I or of > > > > Class > > > > II" shall have the same -meaning as the State Notification No I-L/84 > > > > dated > > > > the twentieth April. '1927, read with State Notification No 13/L > > > > dated the > > > > twenty- seventh June, 1932. > > > > > > > > 7. Unless the context otherwise requires, all referen-ces in any > > > > existing > > > > law to hereditary State subject or to State subject of class I or of > > > > Class > > > > II or of class III shall be construed as references to perma-nent > > > > residents > > > > of the State. > > > > > > > > 8. Nothing in foregoing provisions of this part shall derogate from > > > > the > > > > power of the State legislature to make any law defining the classes > > > > the > > > > persons who are, or shall be permanent residents of the State. > > > > > > > > 9. A Bill marking provision for any of the following matters, > > > > namely. > > > > > > > > (a) defining or altering the definition of, the classes of persons > > > > who are, > > > > or shall be, per-manent residents of the State; > > > > > > > > (b) conferring on permanent residents any special rights or > > > > privileges; > > > > > > > > (c) regulating or modifying any special rights or privileges enjoyed > > > > by > > > > permanent residents; > > > > shall be deemed to be passed by either House of the Legislature only > > > > if It > > > > is passed by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total > > > > membership > > > > of that House. > > > > > > > > 10. The permanent residents of the State shall have all the rights > > > > guaranteed to them under the Constitution of India. > > > > > > > > *PART IV* > > > > *DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF STATE POLICY* > > > > > > > > 11. In this part, unless the context otherwise requires, the State > > > > includes > > > > the Government and the Legis-lature of the State and all local or > > > > other > > > > authori-ties within the territory of the State or under the control > > > > of the > > > > Government of the State. > > > > > > > > 12. The provisions contained in this Part shall not be enforceable > > > > by any > > > > court, but the principles therein laid down are nevertheless > > > > fundamental in > > > > the governance of the State and it shall be the duty of the State to > > > > apply > > > > these principles in making laws. > > > > > > > > 13. The prime object of the State consistent with the ideals and > > > > objectives > > > > of the freedom movement envisaged in "New Kashmir" shall be the > > > > pro-motion > > > > of the welfare of the mass of the people by establishing and > > > > preserving a > > > > socialist order of society wherein all exploitation of man has been > > > > abolished and wherein justice-social, economic and political-shall > > > > inform > > > > all the institutions of natio-nal life. > > > > > > > > 14. Consistently with the objectives outlined in the foregoing > > > > section, the > > > > State shall develop in a planed manner the productive forces of the > > > > coun-try > > > > with a view to enriching the material and cul-tural life of the > > > > people and > > > > foster and protect. > > > > > > > > (a) the public sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by > > > > the State; > > > > > > > > (b) the co-operative sector where the means of > > > > production are co-operatively owned by indi-viduals or groups of > > > > individuals; and > > > > > > > > (c) the private sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by > > > > an > > > > individual or a corpora-tion employing labour, provided that the > > > > operation > > > > of this sector is not allowed to result in the concentration of > > > > wealth or of > > > > the means of production to the common detriment. > > > > > > > > 15. The State shall endeavour to organise and develop agriculture > > > > and animal > > > > husbandry by bringing to the aid of the cultivator tile benefits of > > > > modern > > > > and scientific research and techniques so as to ensure a speedy > > > > improvement > > > > in the standard of living as also the prosperity of the rural > > > > masses. > > > > > > > > 16. The State shall take steps to organise village panchayats and > > > > endow them > > > > with such powers and authority as may be necessary to enable them to > > > > > > > > function as units of self-government. > > > > > > > > 17. The State shall, in order to rehabilitate, guide and promote the > > > > renowned crafts and cottage indus-tries of the State, initiate and > > > > execute > > > > well consi-dered programmes for refining and modernising techniques > > > > and > > > > modes of production, including the employment of cheap power so that > > > > unnece-ssary drudgery and toil of the workers are elimi-nated and > > > > the > > > > artistic value of the products en-hanced, while Else fullest scope > > > > is > > > > provided for the encouragement and development of individual talent > > > > and > > > > initiative. > > > > > > > > 18. The State shall lake steps to separate the judiciary from the > > > > executive > > > > in the public-services, and shall seek to secure a judicial system > > > > which is > > > > humane, cheap, certain, objective and impartial, whereby justice > > > > shall be > > > > done and shall be seen to be done and shall further strive to ensure > > > > > > > > efficiency, im-partiality and incorruptibility of its various organs > > > > of > > > > justice, administration and public utility. > > > > > > > > 19. The State shall, within the limits of its economic capacity and > > > > development, make effective provi-sion for securing: > > > > > > > > (a) that all permanent residents, man and women equally, have the > > > > right to > > > > work, that is, the right to receive guaranteed work with pay-ment > > > > for labour > > > > in accordance with its quan-tity and quality subject to a basic > > > > minimum and > > > > maximum wage established by law; > > > > > > > > (b) that the health and strength of workers, men and women and the > > > > tender > > > > age of children are not abused and that permanent residents are not > > > > forced > > > > by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, age > > > > or > > > > strength; > > > > > > > > (c) that all workers, agricultural or otherwise have reasonable, > > > > just and > > > > humane conditions of work with full enjoyment of leisure and social > > > > and > > > > cultural opportunities, and > > > > > > > > (d) that all permanent residents have adequate maintenance in old > > > > age as > > > > well as in the event of sickness, disablement unemployment and other > > > > cases > > > > of undeserved want by providing social insurance, medical aid, > > > > hospitals, > > > > sana-toria and health resorts at State expense. > > > > > > > > 20. The State shall endeavour: > > > > > > > > (a) to secure to every permanent resident the right to free > > > > education upto > > > > the University standard; > > > > > > > > (b) to provide, within a period often years from the commencement of > > > > this > > > > constitution, com-pulsory education for all children until they > > > > complete the > > > > age of fourteen years; and > > > > > > > > (c) to ensure to all workers and employees ade-quate facilities for > > > > adult > > > > education and part -time technical, professional and vocational > > > > courses. > > > > > > > > 21. The State shall strive to secure: > > > > > > > > (a) to all children the right to happy childhood with adequate > > > > medical care > > > > and attention; and > > > > > > > > (b) to all children and youth equal opportunities in education and > > > > employment, protection against exploitation, and against moral or > > > > material > > > > abandonment. > > > > > > > > 22. The State shall endeavour to secure to all women: > > > > > > > > (a) the right to equal pay for equal work; > > > > > > > > (b) the right to maternity benefits as well as ade-quate medical > > > > care in all > > > > employments; > > > > > > > > (c) the right reasonable maintenance, extending to cases of married > > > > women > > > > who have been divorced or abandoned; > > > > > > > > (d) the right to full equality in all social, educa-tional, > > > > political and > > > > legal matters; and > > > > > > > > (e) special protection against discourtesy, defama-tion, hoolganism > > > > and > > > > other forms of miscon-duct. > > > > > > > > 23. The State shall guarantee to the socially and edu-cationally > > > > backward > > > > sections of the people special care in the promotion of their > > > > educational, > > > > mate rial and cultural interests and protection against social > > > > injustice. > > > > > > > > 24. The State shall make every effort to safeguard and promote the > > > > health of > > > > the people by advancing public hygiene and by prevention of disease > > > > through > > > > sanitation, pest and vermin control, propaganda and other measures, > > > > and by > > > > ensuring widespread, efficient and free medical services throughout > > > > the > > > > State and, with particular emphasis, in its remote and backward > > > > regions. > > > > > > > > 25. The State shall combat ignorance, superstition, fanaticism, > > > > communialism, racialism, cultural > > > > backwardness and shall seek to foster brotherhood and equality among > > > > all > > > > communities under the aegis of a secular State. > > > > > > > > *PART V* > > > > *THE EXECUTIVE* > > > > *THE SADAR-I-RIYASAT* > > > > > > > > 26. (1) The Head of the State shall be designated as the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > (2) The executive power of the State shall be vested in the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > and shall be exercised by him either directly or through officers > > > > subordinate to him in accordance with this Constitution. > > > > > > > > (3) Nothing in this Section shall: > > > > > > > > (a) be deemed to transfer to the Sadar-i--Riyasat any functions > > > > conferred by > > > > any existing law on any other authority; or > > > > > > > > (b) prevent the State legislature from confer-ring by law functions > > > > on any > > > > authority subordinate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > 27. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be the person who for the time being > > > > is > > > > recognised by the President as such: > > > > Provided that no person shall be so recognised unless he: > > > > > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the state; > > > > (b) is not less than twenty-five years of age; and > > > > (c) has been elected as Sadar-i-Riyasat by a majority of the total > > > > membership of the Legislative Assembly in the manner set out in the > > > > First > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > 28. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office during the pleasure of > > > > the > > > > President. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may, be writing under his hand addressed to > > > > the > > > > President, resign his office. > > > > > > > > (3) Subject to the foregoing provision of this section, the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > shall hold office for a term of five years from the date on which he > > > > enters > > > > upon his office: > > > > > > > > Provided that he shall notwithstanding the expiration of his term, > > > > continue > > > > to hold office until his successor enters upon his offlee. > > > > > > > > 29. A person who holds or has held office as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, > > > > subject > > > > to the other provisions of this Constitution, be eligible for > > > > reselection to > > > > that office. > > > > > > > > 30. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be a member of either House of > > > > Legislature and if a member of either House be elected and > > > > recognised as > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, he shall be deemed to have vacated his seat in the > > > > House on > > > > the date on which he enters upon his office as Sadar-I-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not hold any other office of profit. > > > > > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be entitled to such emoluments, > > > > allowances and > > > > privileges as are specified in the second schedule. > > > > > > > > (4) The emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not > > > > be > > > > diminished during his term of office. > > > > > > > > 31. The Sadar-i-Riyasat and every person acting as Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > shall, > > > > before entering upon his office, make and subscribe in the presence > > > > of the > > > > Chief Justice of the High Court, or in his absence, the senior-most > > > > judge of > > > > the High Court available, in an oath or affirmation in the following > > > > form > > > > that is to sayed "I, A. B., do swear in the name of God that I will > > > > faithfully discharge the functions of the Sadar-I-Riyasat of Jammu > > > > and > > > > Kashmir and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect and > > > > defend the > > > > Constitution and the law and that I will devote myself to the > > > > service and > > > > well being of the people of State." > > > > > > > > 32. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be removed from his office by the > > > > President if > > > > an address by the Legis-lative Assembly supported by a majority of > > > > not less > > > > than two-thirds of its total membership is presented to the > > > > president > > > > praying for such removal on the ground of violation of the > > > > Constitution. > > > > > > > > 33. When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by > > > > reason of > > > > his death, resignation or removal or when the Sadar-i-Riyasat is > > > > unable to > > > > discharge his functions owing to absence, illness or or any other > > > > cause, the > > > > functions of the office shall, until the assumption of office by a > > > > newly > > > > elected Sadar-i-Riyasat or the resumption of duties by the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > as the case may be, dis-charged by such person as the President may > > > > on the > > > > recommendation of the Council of Ministers of the State, recognise > > > > as the > > > > acting Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > 34. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall have the power to grant pardons, > > > > reprieves, > > > > respites or remissions of punish-ment or to suspend, remit or > > > > commute the > > > > sentence of any person convicted of any offense against any law > > > > relating to > > > > a matter to which the executive power of the State extends. > > > > > > > > *THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS* > > > > > > > > 35. (1) There shall be a council of Ministers with the Prime > > > > Minister at the > > > > head to aid and advise the Sadar-i-Riyasat in the exercise of his > > > > functions. > > > > > > > > All functions of the Sadar-i-Riyasat except those under sections 36, > > > > 38 and > > > > 92 shall be exercised by him only on the advice of the Council of > > > > Ministers. > > > > > > > > (3) The question whether any, and if so what, advice was tendered by > > > > Ministers to the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be inquired into in any > > > > court. > > > > > > > > 36. The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and > > > > the > > > > other Ministers shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the > > > > advice of > > > > The Prime Minister. > > > > > > > > 37. (1) The Council of Ministers shall be collectively responsible > > > > to the > > > > Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > (2) A Minister who for any period of six conse-cutive months is not > > > > a member > > > > of either House of Legislature shall upon the expiry of that period > > > > cease to > > > > be a Minister. > > > > > > > > 38. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may on the advice of the Prime Minister > > > > appoint from > > > > amongst the members of either House of Legislature such number of > > > > Deputy > > > > Ministers as may be necessary. > > > > > > > > 39. The Ministers and the [Deputy Ministers shall hold office during > > > > the > > > > pleasure of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > > > > > 40. Before a Minister or a Deputy Minister enters upon lids office, > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or, in his absence, any person authorised by him, > > > > shall > > > > administer to the Minister or the Deputy Minister to oaths of office > > > > and of > > > > secrecy according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > 41. The salaries and allowances of Ministers and Deputy Ministers > > > > shall be > > > > such as the Legislature relay from time to time by law determine > > > > and, until > > > > so determined, shall be such as are payable respectively to the > > > > Ministers > > > > and the Deputy Ministers under the Jammu and Kashmir Minister s > > > > Salaries > > > > Act, 1956 (Act VI of 1956) the Jammu and Kashmir Minister's > > > > Travelling > > > > Allowances Rules for the time being in force, and the Jaminu and > > > > Kashmir > > > > Deputy Ministers Salaries and Allowances Act. S. 2010 (Act VIII of > > > > S.2010) > > > > > > > > *THE ADVOCATE GENERAL* > > > > > > > > 42. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall appoint a person who is qualified > > > > to be > > > > appointed a Judge of the High Court, to be Advocate General for the > > > > State. > > > > > > > > (2) It shall be the duty of the Advocate General to give advice to > > > > the > > > > Government upon such legal matters and to perform such other duties > > > > of a > > > > legal character, as may from time to time be referred or assigned to > > > > him by > > > > the Govern-ment, and to discharge the functions conferred on him by > > > > or under > > > > this Constitution or any other law for the time being in force. > > > > > > > > (3) In the performance of his duties, the Advocate General shall > > > > have the > > > > right of audience in all courts in the State. > > > > > > > > (4) The Advocate General shall hold office during the pleasure of > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and receive such remuneration as the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > may > > > > determine. > > > > > > > > *CONDUCT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS* > > > > > > > > 43. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall make rules for the more > > > > convenient transaction of the business of the > > > > Government of the State and for the allocation > > > > among Ministers of the said business. > > > > > > > > 44. It shall be the duty of the Prime Minister > > > > > > > > (a) to communicate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat all decisions of the > > > > council of > > > > Ministers relating to the administration of the affairs of the State > > > > and > > > > proposals for legislation; > > > > > > > > (b) to furnish such information relating to the administration of > > > > the > > > > affairs of the State and proposals for legislation as the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > may call for; and > > > > > > > > (c) if the Sadar-i-Riyasat so rqeuires to submit for the > > > > consideration of > > > > the Council of Ministers any matter on which a decision has been > > > > taken by a > > > > Minister but which has not been considered by the Council. > > > > > > > > 45. (1) All executive action of the Government shall be expressed to > > > > be > > > > taken in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat of the Jammu and Kashmir. > > > > > > > > (2) Orders and other instruments made and executed in the name of > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or of the Government of Jammu and Kashmir shall be > > > > authenticated in such manner as may be specified in the rules to be > > > > made be > > > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and the validity of an order or instrument > > > > which is so > > > > authenticated shall not be called in question on the ground that it > > > > is not > > > > an order or instrument made or executed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat or as > > > > the > > > > case may be, by the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.** > > > > > > > > *PART VI* > > > > *THE STATE LEGISLATIVE*** > > > > > > > > *COMPOSITION OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > > > > > 46. There shall be Legislature for the State which shall consist of > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and two Houses be known respectively as the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly and the Legislative Council. > > > > > > > > 47. (1) The Legislative Assembly shall consist of one hundred > > > > members chosen > > > > by direct election from territorial constituencies in the State; > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, if he is of opinion that > > > > women are > > > > not adequately represented in the Assembly nominate not more than > > > > two women > > > > to be members thereof. > > > > > > > > (2) For the purposes of sub-section (I), the State shall be divided > > > > into > > > > territorial constituencies in such a manner that the ratio between > > > > the > > > > population of each constituency and the number of seats allotted to > > > > it > > > > shall, so far as practicable, be the same throughout the State. > > > > Explanation: > > > > In this sub-section, the express-ion "Population' means the > > > > population as > > > > ascertained at the last preceding census of which the relevant > > > > figures have > > > > been published. > > > > > > > > (3) Upon the completion of each census, the number, extent and > > > > boundaries of > > > > the territor-ial constituencies shall be readjusted by such > > > > authority and in > > > > such manner as the Legislature may be law determine: > > > > Provided that such readjustment shall not affect representation in > > > > the > > > > Legislative Assemb until the disolution of the then exist-ing > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > 48. Notwithstanding anything contained in section 47, until the area > > > > of the > > > > State under the occuptions of Pakistan ceases to so occupied and the > > > > people > > > > residing in that area elect their representatives > > > > > > > > (a) twenty-five seats in the Legislative Assembly shall remain > > > > vacant and > > > > shall not be taken into account for reckoning the total member-ship > > > > of the > > > > Assembly; and the said area shall be excluded in delimiting the > > > > territorial > > > > Constituencies Under Section 47. > > > > > > > > 49. (I) There shall be reserved in the Lagislative Assembly for the > > > > Scheduled Castes in the State a number of seats which shall bear, as > > > > nearly > > > > as may be, the same proportion to the total number of seats in the > > > > Assembly > > > > as the popu-lation of the Scheduled Castes bears to the population > > > > of the > > > > State. > > > > > > > > Explanation: In this sub-section: > > > > > > > > (a) "population" has the same meaning as in sub-section (2) of > > > > section 47; > > > > and > > > > (b) "Scheduled Castes" means the caste, races or tribes or part of, > > > > or > > > > groups within castes, races or tribes which are for the purposes of > > > > the > > > > Constitution of India deemed to be Scheduled Casts in relation to > > > > the State > > > > under the pro-visions of article 341 of that Constitution. > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sub-section (1) shall cease to have effect on > > > > the > > > > expiration of a period of five years from the commencement of this > > > > Constitution: > > > > > > > > Provided that such cesser shall not affect any representation in the > > > > Legislative Assembly until the dissolution of the then existing > > > > Assembly: > > > > > > > > 50. (1) The Legislative Council shall consist of thirty six members, > > > > chosen > > > > in the manner provided in this section. > > > > > > > > (2) Eleven members shall be elected by the men hers of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of > > > > Kashmir > > > > and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > (3) Eleven members shall be elected by the mem-bers of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of > > > > Jammu and > > > > are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > > > Provided that of the members so elected, at least one shall be a > > > > resident of > > > > Doda District and at least one shall be a resident of Poonch > > > > District. > > > > > > > > (4) One member shall be elected by each of the following > > > > electorates, namely > > > > > > > > (a) the members of municipal council, town area committees and > > > > notified area > > > > com-mittees in the Province of Kashmir; > > > > > > > > (b) the members of municipal council, town area committees, and > > > > notified > > > > area committees in the Province of Jammu; > > > > > > > > (c) permanent residents who have been for at least three years > > > > engaged in > > > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in > > > > the > > > > Province of Kashmir; and > > > > > > > > (d) permanent residents who have been for at least three years > > > > engaged in > > > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in > > > > the > > > > Province of Jammu. > > > > > > > > (5) Two members shall be elected by each of the following > > > > electorates, > > > > namely: > > > > > > > > (a) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > > > > Province of Kashmir as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify; and > > > > > > > > > > > > (b) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > > > > Province of Jammu as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > > > > > > > (6) Six members shall be nominated by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, not more > > > > than > > > > three of whom shall be person belonging to any of the socially or > > > > economically backward classes in the State, and the others shall be > > > > persons > > > > having special knowledge or practical experi-ence in respect of > > > > matters such > > > > as literature, science, art, co-operative movement and social > > > > service. > > > > > > > > (7) Elections under sub-section (2) and (3) shall be held in > > > > accordance with > > > > the system of pro-portional representation by means of the single > > > > transferable vote. > > > > > > > > *GENERAL PROVISIONS* > > > > > > > > 51. A person shall not be qualified to be chosen to fill a seat in > > > > the > > > > Legislature unless he: > > > > > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the State; > > > > > > > > (b) is, in the case of a seat in the Legislative Assembly, not less > > > > than > > > > twenty-five years of age, and in the case of a seat in the > > > > Legisla-tive > > > > Council, not less than thirty years of age; and > > > > > > > > (c) possesses such other qualifications as may be prescribed in that > > > > behalf > > > > by or under any law made by Legislature. > > > > > > > > 52. (1) The Legislative Assembly, unless sooner dis-solved, shall > > > > continue > > > > for five years from the date appointed for its first meeting and not > > > > longer, > > > > and the expiration of the said period of five years shall operate as > > > > a > > > > dissolution of the Assembly; > > > > Provided that the said period may, while a Proclamation of Emergency > > > > issued > > > > under arti-cle 352 of the Constitution of India is in operation, be > > > > extended > > > > by the State Legislature by law for a period not exceeding one year > > > > at a > > > > time and not extending in any case beyond a period of six months > > > > after the > > > > Proclamation has ceased to operate. > > > > > > > > (2) The Legislative Council shall not be subject to dissolution but > > > > as > > > > nearly as possible one-third of the members thereof shall retire, as > > > > soon as > > > > may be, on the expiration of every second year in accordance with > > > > the > > > > provisions made in that behalf by Legislature by law. > > > > > > > > 53. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall from time to time summon each > > > > House of the > > > > Legislature to meet at such time and place as he thinks fit, but six > > > > months > > > > shall not intervene between its last sitting in one session and the > > > > date > > > > appointed for its first sitting in the next session. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may from time to time... > > > > > > > > (a) prorogue the House or either house (b) dissolve the Legislative > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > 54. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may address either House of Legislature, > > > > or both > > > > Houses assembled together, and may for that purpose require the > > > > attendance > > > > of members. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may send messages to either House, whether > > > > with > > > > respect to a Bill then bending in the Legislature, or otherwise and > > > > a House > > > > to which any message is so sent shall with all convenient dispatch > > > > consider > > > > any matter required by the message to be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > 55. (1) At the commencement of the first session after each general > > > > election > > > > to the Legislative Assembly and at the commencement of the first > > > > session of > > > > each year, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall address both Houses of > > > > Legislature > > > > assembled together and inform the Legislature of the cause of its > > > > summons. > > > > > > > > (2) Provision shall be made by the rules regulating the procedure of > > > > either > > > > House for the allot-ment of time for discussion of the matters > > > > reffered to > > > > in such address. > > > > > > > > 56. Every Minister and the Advocate General shall have the right to > > > > speak > > > > in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings, of both Houses > > > > and to > > > > speak in, and otherwise to to take part in the proceedings of, any > > > > Committee-of the Legislature of which he may be named a member, but > > > > shall > > > > not, by virtue of this section, be entitled to vote. > > > > > > > > *OFFICERS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > > > > > 57. The Legislative Assembly shall, as soon as may be, choose two > > > > members of > > > > the Assembly to be res-pectively Speaker and Deputy Speaker thereof > > > > and, so > > > > often at office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant, the > > > > Assembly > > > > shall choose another member to be Speaker, or Deputy Speaker, as the > > > > case > > > > may be. > > > > > > > > 58. A member holding office as Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly: > > > > > > > > (a) shall vacate his office if he ceases to be a member of the > > > > Assembly; > > > > > > > > (b) may at any time by writing under his hand addressed, if such > > > > member is > > > > the Speaker, to the Deputy Speaker, and if such member is the Deputy > > > > Speaker, to the Speaker, resign his office; and > > > > > > > > (c) may be removed from his office by a resolu-tion of the Assembly > > > > passed > > > > by a majority of all the then members of the Assembly; > > > > > > > > Provided that no resolution for the purpose of clause (c) shall be > > > > moved > > > > unless at least fourteen days notice has been given of the intention > > > > to move > > > > the resolution. > > > > > > > > Provided further that, whenever the Assembly is dissolved, the > > > > Speaker that > > > > not vacate his office until immediately before the first meeting of > > > > the > > > > Assembly after the dissolution. > > > > > > > > 59. (1) While the office of Speaker is vacant the duties of the > > > > office shall > > > > be performed by the Deputy Speaker or, if the office of the Deputy > > > > Speaker > > > > is also vacant, by such member of the Assembly as the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > > > appoint for the purpose. > > > > > > > > (2) During the absence of the Speaker from any sitting of the > > > > Assembly the > > > > Deputy speaker or, if he is also absent, such person as may be > > > > determined by > > > > the rules of procedure of the Assembly, or, if no such person is > > > > present, > > > > such other person as may be determined by the Assembly, shall act as > > > > Speaker. > > > > > > > > 60. (1) At any sitting of the Legislative Assembly, while any > > > > resolution for > > > > the removal of the Speaker from his office is under consideration, > > > > the > > > > Speaker, or while any resolution for the removal of the Deputy > > > > Speaker from > > > > his office is under consideration, the Deputy Speaker shall not, > > > > though he > > > > is present, preside and the provisions of sub-section (2) of section > > > > 59 > > > > shall apply inrelation to every such sitting as they apply in > > > > relation to a > > > > sitting from which the Speaker or, as the case may be, the Deputy > > > > Speaker is > > > > absent. > > > > > > > > (2) The Speaker shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to > > > > take part > > > > in the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly while any resolu-tion > > > > for his > > > > removal from office is under con-sideration in the Assembly and > > > > shall, > > > > notwith-standing anything in section 67, be entitled to vote only in > > > > the > > > > first instance on such resolu-tion or on any other matter during > > > > such > > > > pro-ceedings but not in the case of an equality of votes. > > > > > > > > 61. (1) The Legislative Council shall, as soon as may be, choose two > > > > members > > > > of the Council to be respectively Chairman and Deputy Chairman > > > > thereof and, > > > > so often as the office of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman becomes > > > > vacant, > > > > the Council shall choose another member to be Chairman or Deputy > > > > Chairman, > > > > as the case may be. > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 58,59 and 60 shall apply in relation > > > > to the > > > > Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council with the > > > > substitution of the words "Chairman" and "Council" for the words > > > > "Speaker" > > > > and "Assembly" respectively wherever they occur in those provisions, > > > > and > > > > with the omission of the further proviso to section 58. > > > > > > > > 62. There shall be pay to the speaker and the the Deputy Speaker of > > > > the > > > > Legislative Assembly and to the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of > > > > the > > > > Legislative Council, such salaries and allowances as may be > > > > respectively > > > > fixed by Legislature by law and, until provi-sion in that behalf is > > > > so made, > > > > such salaries and allowances as are specified in the Third Schedule. > > > > > > > > 63. (1) Each House of the Legislature shall have a separate > > > > secretarial > > > > Staff: > > > > > > > > Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as > > > > preventing > > > > the creation of posts common to both Houses. > > > > > > > > (2) The Legislature may by law regulate the re-cruitment, and the > > > > conditions > > > > of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of each > > > > House. > > > > > > > > (3) Until provision is made by the Legislature under sub-section > > > > (2), the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may, after consultation with the Speaker of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case may > > > > be, > > > > make rules regulating the recruitment, and the con-ditions of > > > > service of > > > > persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of the Assembly or the > > > > Council, > > > > and any rules so made shall have effect subject to the provisions of > > > > any law > > > > made under the said sub-section. > > > > > > > > *CONDUCT OF BUSINESS* > > > > > > > > 64. Every member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative > > > > Council > > > > shall before taking his seat, make and sub-scribe before the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > or some person appointed in that behalf by him an oath or > > > > affirmation > > > > according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. > > > > > > > > 65. Save as otherwise provided by the rules of proce-dure of the > > > > House, the > > > > quorum to constitute a meeting of the Legislative Assembly and of > > > > the > > > > Legislative Council shall be twenty and ten re-spectively. > > > > > > > > 66. A House of the Legislature shall have power to act > > > > notwithstanding any > > > > vacancy in the membership thereof, and any proceedings in the > > > > Legislature > > > > shall be valid notwithstanding that it is discovered subsequently > > > > that some > > > > person who was not entitl-ed so to do sat or voted or otherwise took > > > > part in > > > > the proceedings. > > > > > > > > 67. (1) Save as otherwise provided in this Constitu-tion, all > > > > questions at > > > > any sitting of a House of the Legislature shall be determined by a > > > > majority > > > > of votes of the members present and voting, other than the Speaker > > > > or > > > > Chairman, or person acting as such. > > > > > > > > (2) The Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such, shall not > > > > vote in the > > > > first instance, but shall have and exercise a casting vote in the > > > > case of an > > > > equality of votes. > > > > > > > > *DISQUALIFICATIONS OF MEMBERS*** > > > > > > > > 68. (1) No person shall be a member of both Houses of the > > > > Legislature and > > > > provision shall be made by Legislature by law for the vacation by a > > > > person > > > > who is chooser a member of both Houses of his seat in one House or > > > > the > > > > other. > > > > > > > > (2) If a member of a House of the Legislature resigns his seat by > > > > writing > > > > under his hand addressed to tile Speaker or the Chairman, as the > > > > case may > > > > be, his s at shall thereupon become vacant. > > > > > > > > (3) If for a period of sixty days a member of a House of the > > > > Legislature is > > > > without permission of the House absent from all meetings thereof, > > > > the House > > > > may declare his seat vacant: > > > > > > > > Provided that in computing the said period of sixty days no account > > > > shall be > > > > taken of: > > > > > > > > (a) such absence caused by reason beyond his control; or > > > > > > > > (b) any period during which the House is prorogued or is adjourned > > > > for more > > > > than four consecutive days. > > > > > > > > 69. (1) A person shall be disqualified for being chosen and for > > > > being a > > > > member of the Legislative Assembly or Legislative Council: > > > > > > > > (a) if he holds any office of profit under the Government of India > > > > or the > > > > State Govern-ment within the Union of India, other than an office > > > > declared > > > > by Legislature by law not to dis-qualify its holder; > > > > > > > > (b) if he is of unsound mind and stands so declared by a competent > > > > court; > > > > > > > > (c) if he is an undischarged insolvent; > > > > > > > > (d) if he is not a permanent resident of the State or has > > > > voluntarily > > > > acquired the citizenship of a foreign State, or is under any > > > > acknowledgement > > > > of allegiance to adherence to a foreign State; > > > > > > > > (e) if he is so disqualified by or under any law made by the > > > > Legislature. > > > > > > > > (2) For the purposes of this section, a person shall not be deemed > > > > to hold > > > > an office of profit under the Government of India, the State > > > > Government or > > > > any other State Government vithin the Union of India, by reason only > > > > that he > > > > is a Minister, or a Deputy Minister. > > > > > > > > 70. (1) If it is represented to the Speaker or the Chairman that a > > > > member > > > > of the Legislative Assembly or, as the case may be, of the > > > > Legis-lative > > > > Council is disqualified for being such a member under the provisions > > > > of > > > > section 69, or > > > > was so disqualified at any time since being chosen as a member and > > > > the > > > > member does not admit that he is or was so disqualified, the > > > > question shall > > > > be referred to the High Court decision and its decision shall be > > > > final: > > > > > > > > Provided that w here the disqualification in question arises from > > > > circumstances which subsisted at the time of his being chosen as > > > > such > > > > member, no such representation as aforesaid shall be entertained: > > > > > > > > (a) unless it is made after the expiration of the period by law for > > > > presenting an elec-tion petition calling in question the election of > > > > the > > > > member; and > > > > > > > > (b) if such an election petition is pending or has been tried, > > > > unless the > > > > Speaker or Chairman as the case may be is satisfied that the > > > > question of the > > > > members' disquali-fication by reason of those circumstances has not > > > > been > > > > raised or, as the case may be, was not raised, in the proceedings on > > > > the > > > > election petition. > > > > > > > > (2) Where on a representation made under sub-section (I) the member > > > > admits > > > > that he is or w. s disqualified under the provisions of section 69, > > > > or where > > > > on a reference made under that sub-section the High Court decides > > > > that the > > > > member is or was so disqualified, his seat shall thereupon become > > > > vacant. > > > > > > > > 71. If a person sits or votes as a member of the Legislative > > > > Assembly or the > > > > Legislative Council before he has complied with the requirements of > > > > section > > > > 54 or when he knows that he is not quali-fied or that he is > > > > disqualified for > > > > membership thereof or that he is prohibited from so doing by the > > > > provisions > > > > of any law made by the Legislature, he shall be liable in respect of > > > > each > > > > day on which he so sits or votes to a penalty of one hundred rupees > > > > to be > > > > recovered as a debt due to the State. > > > > > > > > *POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND ITS > > > > MEMBERS* > > > > > > > > 72. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the > > > > rules and > > > > standing orders regulating the procedure of the Legislature, there > > > > shall be > > > > freedom of speech in the Legislature. > > > > > > > > (2) No member of the Legislature shall be liable to any proceedings > > > > in any > > > > court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in the > > > > Legislature or any committee thereof and no person shall be so > > > > liable in > > > > respect of the publication by or under the authority of a House of > > > > the > > > > Legislature of any report, paper, votes, or proceedings. > > > > > > > > (3) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of a > > > > House of > > > > the Legislature and- of the members and the committees of a House of > > > > the > > > > Legislature shall be such as may from time to time be defined by > > > > Legislature > > > > by law, and until so defined shall be those of the Parliament of > > > > India and > > > > of its members and committees. > > > > > > > > (4) The provisions of sub-sections (1), (2) and (3) shall apply in > > > > relation > > > > to persons who by virtue of this Constitution have the right t o > > > > speak, in > > > > and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of, a House of the > > > > Legislature > > > > or any committee thereof as they apply in relation to members of > > > > that > > > > Legislature. > > > > > > > > 73. Members of the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council > > > > shall be > > > > entitled to receive such salaries and allowances as may from time to > > > > time be > > > > determined by Legislature by law and, until provision in that > > > > respect is so > > > > made, salaries and allowances at such rates and upon such conditions > > > > as were > > > > immediately before the commencement of this Constitution applicable > > > > in the > > > > case of members of the Constituent Assembly. > > > > > > > > *LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURE* > > > > > > > > 74. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 76 and 84 with respect > > > > to > > > > Money Bills and other Finan-cial Bills, a Bill may originate in > > > > either House > > > > of the Legislature. > > > > > > > > (2) Subject to the provisions of sections 75 and 76 a Bill shall not > > > > be > > > > deemed to have been passed by the Legislature unless it has been > > > > agreed to > > > > by both Houses, either without amendment or with such amendments > > > > only as are > > > > agreed to by both Houses. > > > > > > > > (3) A Bill pending in the Legislature shall not lapse by reason of > > > > the > > > > prorogation of the House or House thereof. > > > > > > > > (4) A Bill pending in the Legislative Council which has not been > > > > passed by > > > > the Legislative Assembly shall not lapse on a dissolution of the > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > (5) A Bill which is pending in the Legislative Assembly or which > > > > having been > > > > passed by the Legislative Assembly, is pending in the Legi-slative > > > > Council, > > > > shall lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly > > > > > > > > 75. (1) If after a Bill has been passed by the Legisla-tive Assembly > > > > and > > > > transmitted to the Legisla-tive Council: > > > > > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > > > > > (b) more than three months elapse from the date on which the Bill is > > > > laid > > > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Legisl-ative Assembly may, > > > > subject > > > > to the rules regulating its procedure, pass the Bill again in the > > > > same or in > > > > any subse-quent session with or without such amendments, if any, as > > > > have > > > > been made suggested or agreed to by the Legislative Council and then > > > > transmit the Bill as so passed to the Legislative Council. > > > > > > > > (2) If after a Bill has been so palmed for the se-cond time by the > > > > legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council: > > > > > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > > > > > (b) more shall one month elapses from the date on which the Bill is > > > > laid > > > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; > > > > > > > > the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Houses of the > > > > Legislature in the form in which it passed by the Legislative > > > > Assembly for > > > > the second time with such amendments, if any, as have been made or > > > > suggested > > > > by the Legislative Council and agreed to by the Legislative > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > (3) Nothing in this section shall apply to a Money Bill. > > > > > > > > 76. (1) A Money Bill shall not be introduced in the Legislative > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > (2) After a Money Bill has been passed by the Legislative Assembly, > > > > it shall > > > > be transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommenda-tions > > > > and the > > > > Legislative Council shall within a period of fourteen days from the > > > > date of > > > > its receipt of the Bill return the Bill to the Legis-lative Assembly > > > > with > > > > its recommendations, and the Legislative Assemble may there upon > > > > either > > > > accept or reject all or any of the recom-mendations of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > (3) If the Legislative Assembly accepts any of the recommendations > > > > of the > > > > Legislative Council, the Money Bil] shall deemed to have been passed > > > > by both > > > > Houses with the amend-ments recommended by the Legislative Coun-cil > > > > and > > > > accepted by the Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > (4) If the Legislative Assembly does not accept any of the > > > > recommendations > > > > of the Legislative Council, the Money Bill shall be deemed to have > > > > been > > > > passed by both Houses in the form which it was passed by the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly without any of the amendments recommended by the > > > > Legislative > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > 5. If a Money Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly and > > > > transmitted to the > > > > Legislative Council for its recommendations is not returned to the > > > > Legislative Assembly within the said period of fourteen days, it > > > > shall be > > > > deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the > > > > said > > > > period in the form in which it was passed by the Legislative > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > 77. (1) For the purposes of the part, a Bill shall be deemed to be a > > > > Money > > > > Bill if it contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the > > > > following > > > > matters namely: > > > > > > > > (a) the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation > > > > of any > > > > tax; > > > > > > > > (b) the regulation of the borrowing of money or the giving of any > > > > guarantee > > > > by the State, or the amendment of the law with respect to any > > > > financial > > > > obligations under-taken or to be undertaken by the State; > > > > > > > > (c) the custody of the Consolidated Fund or the Contingency Fund of > > > > the > > > > State, the payment of money into or the with-drawal of moneys from > > > > any such > > > > Fund: > > > > > > > > (d) the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the > > > > State; > > > > > > > > (e) the declaring of any expenditure to be expenditure charges on > > > > the > > > > consolidated Fund of the State, or the increasing of the amount of > > > > any such > > > > expenditure; > > > > > > > > (f) the receipt of money on account of the Consolidated Fund of the > > > > State or > > > > the public account of the State or the custody or issue of such > > > > money; or > > > > any matter incidental to any of the matters specified in clauses (a) > > > > to (f). > > > > > > > > (2) A Bill shall not be deemed to be a Money Bill by reason only > > > > that it > > > > provides for the imposition of fines or other pecuniary penalties or > > > > for the > > > > demand or payment of fees for lice-nces or fees for services > > > > rendered, or by > > > > reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, > > > > alteration > > > > or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local > > > > purposes. > > > > > > > > (3) If any question arises whether a Bill introduced in the > > > > Legislature is a > > > > Money Bill or not, the decision of the Speaker of the Legislative > > > > Assembly > > > > thereon shall be final. > > > > > > > > (4) There shall be endorsed an every Money Bill when it is > > > > transmitted to > > > > the Legislative Council under section 76 and when it is pre-sented > > > > to the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent under section 78, the certificate of the > > > > Speaker > > > > of the Legislative Assembly signed by him that it is a Money Bill. > > > > > > > > 78. When a Bill has been passed by both Houses of the Legislature, > > > > it shall > > > > be presented to the Sadar--i-Riyasat and the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall > > > > declare > > > > either that he assents to the Bill or that he with-holds assent > > > > therefrom. > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, as soon as possible after the > > > > presentation to him of the Bill for assent, return the Bill if it is > > > > not a > > > > Money Bill together with a message requesting that the Houses will > > > > reconsider the Bill or any specified provisions thereof and, in > > > > particular, > > > > will consider the desira-bility of introducing any such amendments > > > > as he may > > > > recommend in his message and, when a Bill is so returned, the Houses > > > > shall > > > > reconsider the Bill accordingly, and if the Bill is passed again by > > > > the > > > > Houses with or without amendment and presented to the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for > > > > assent, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not withhold assent therefrom. > > > > > > > > *PROCEDURE IN FINANCIAL MATTERS* > > > > > > > > 79. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall in respect of every financial year > > > > cause > > > > to be laid before both Houses of the Legislature a statement of the > > > > estimated receipts and expenditure of the State for that year, in > > > > this part > > > > referred to as the "annual financial statement." (2) The estimates > > > > of > > > > expenditure embodied in the annual financial statement shall show > > > > separately > > > > > > > > (a) the sums required to meet expenditure described by this > > > > constitution as > > > > expendi-ture charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State; and > > > > > > > > (b) the sums required to meet other expendi-ture proposed to be made > > > > from > > > > the con-solidated Fund of the State; and shall distinguish > > > > expenditure on > > > > revenue account from other expenditure. > > > > > > > > (3) The following expenditure shall be expenditure charged on the > > > > consolidated fund of the State: > > > > > > > > (a) the emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and other > > > > expenditure relating to his office; > > > > > > > > (b) the salaries and allowances of the Speaker and the Deputy > > > > Speaker of the > > > > Legislative Assembly and of the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of > > > > the > > > > Legislative Council; > > > > > > > > (c) debt charges for which the State is liable including interest, > > > > sinking > > > > fund charges and redemption charges. and other expenditure relating > > > > to the > > > > raising of loans and the service and redemption of debt; > > > > > > > > (d) expenditure in respect of the salaries and allowances of the > > > > Judges of > > > > the High Court; > > > > > > > > (e) any sums required to satisfy any judge-ment decree or award of > > > > any Court > > > > or arbitral tribunal; > > > > > > > > (f) any other expenditure declared by this Constitution, or by > > > > Legislature > > > > by law, to be so charged. > > > > > > > > 80. (1,) So much of the estimates as relates to expen-diture changed > > > > upon > > > > the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be submitted to the > > > > vote of the > > > > Legislative Assembly, but nothing in this sub-section shall be > > > > construed as > > > > preven-ting the discussion in the Legislature of any those > > > > estimates. > > > > > > > > (2) So much of the said estimates as relates to other expenditure > > > > shall be > > > > submitted in the form of demands for grants to the Legislative > > > > Assembly, and > > > > the Legislative Assembly shall have power to assent, or to refuse to > > > > assent, > > > > to any demand, or to assent to any demand subject to a reduction of > > > > the > > > > amount specified therein. > > > > > > > > (3) No demand for a grant shall be made except on the recommendation > > > > of the > > > > Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > > > > > (1) As soon as may be after the grants under section 80 have been > > > > made by > > > > the Assembly, there shall be introduced a Bill to provide for the > > > > appropriation out of the Consolidated fund of the State of all > > > > moneys > > > > required to meet: > > > > > > > > (a) the grants so made by the Assembly; and (b) the expenditure > > > > charged on > > > > the Consoli-dated Fund of the State but not exceed-ing in any case > > > > the > > > > amount shown in the statement previously laid before the Houses. > > > > > > > > (23 No amendment shall be proposed to any such Bill in either House > > > > of the > > > > Legislature which will have the effect of varying the amount or > > > > altering the > > > > destination of any grant to made or of varying the amount of any > > > > expenditure > > > > charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State, and the decision of > > > > the > > > > person presiding as to whether an amendment is inadmissible under > > > > the > > > > sub-section shall be final. > > > > > > > > (3) Subject to the provisions of sections 89 and 83, no money shall > > > > be > > > > withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund of the State except under > > > > appropriation > > > > made by law passed in accor-dance with the provisions of this > > > > section > > > > > > > > 12. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall: > > > > > > > > (a) if the amount authorised by any law made in accordance with > > > > provisions > > > > of section 81 to be expended for a particular service for the > > > > current > > > > financial year is found to be insufficient for the purposes of that > > > > year or > > > > when a need has arisen during the current financial year for > > > > supplemen-tary > > > > or additional expenditure upon some new service not contemplated in > > > > the > > > > annual financial statement for that year; or > > > > > > > > (b) if any money has been spent on any ser-vice during a financial > > > > year in > > > > excess of the amount granted for the service and for that year, > > > > cause to be > > > > laid before the Houses of the Legislature another statement showing > > > > the > > > > estimated amount of that expenditure or cause to be presented to the > > > > Legis-lative Assembly a demand for such excess, as the case may be. > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 79, 80 and 81 shall have effect in > > > > relation > > > > to any such statement and expenditure or demand and also to any law > > > > to be > > > > made authorising the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated > > > > Fund of > > > > the State to meet such expenditure or the grant in respect of such > > > > demand as > > > > they have effect in relation to the annual financial state-ment and > > > > the > > > > expenditure mentioned therein or to a demand for grant and the law > > > > to be > > > > 'made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the > > > > Consolidated Fund of the state to meet such expenditure or grant. > > > > > > > > 83. (1) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this > > > > Part, > > > > the Legislative Assem-bly shall have power: > > > > > > > > (a) to make any grant in advance in respect of the estimated > > > > expenditure for > > > > a part of any financial year pending the completion of the procedure > > > > prescribed in section 80 for the voting of such grant and the > > > > pas-sing of > > > > the law in accordance with the provisions of section 81 in relation > > > > to that > > > > expenditure; > > > > > > > > (b) to make a grant for meeting an unexpec-ted demand upon the > > > > resources of > > > > the State when on account of the magnitude or the indefinite > > > > character of > > > > the services the demand cannot be stated with the details ordinarily > > > > given > > > > in an annual financial statement; > > > > > > > > (c) to make an exceptional grant which forms no part of the current > > > > service > > > > of any financial year; > > > > and the Legislature shall have power to authorise by law the > > > > withdrawal of > > > > moneys from the Consolidated Fund of the State for the purposes for > > > > which > > > > the said grants are made. > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 80 and 81 shall have effect in > > > > relation to > > > > the making of any grant under sub-section (1) and to law to be made > > > > under > > > > that sub-section as they have effect in relation to the making of a > > > > grant > > > > with regard to any expenditure mentioned h1 the annual financial > > > > statement > > > > and the law to be made for the authorization of appropriation of > > > > moneys out > > > > of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure. > > > > > > > > 84. (1) A bill or amendment making provision for any of the matters > > > > specified in clauses (a) to (f) of sub-section (1) of section 77 > > > > shall not > > > > be introduced or moved except on the recom-mendation of the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > and a Bill making such provision shall not be introdu-ced in the > > > > Legislative > > > > Council: > > > > > > > > Provided that no recommendation shall be required under this > > > > sub-section for > > > > the moving of an amendment making provision for the reduction or > > > > abolition > > > > of any tax. > > > > > > > > (2) A Bill or amendment shall not be deemed to make provision for > > > > any of the > > > > matters afore-said by reason only that it provides for the. > > > > imposition of > > > > fines or other pecuniary penal-ties, or for the demand or payment of > > > > fees > > > > for licences or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it > > > > provides > > > > for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation > > > > of any > > > > tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. > > > > > > > > (3) A Bill which, if enacted and brought into operation. would > > > > involve > > > > expenditure from the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be > > > > passed by a > > > > House of the Legislature unless the Sadar-i-Riyasat has recommended > > > > to that > > > > House the consideration of the Bill. > > > > > > > > *PROCEDURE GENERALLY* > > > > > > > > 85. (1) A House of the Legislature may make rules for regulating, > > > > subject to > > > > the provisions of this Constitution, its procedure and the con-duct > > > > of its > > > > business. > > > > > > > > (2) Until rules are made under sub-section (1), the rules of > > > > procedure and > > > > standing orders in force immediately before the commencement of this > > > > > > > > Constituent Assembly while discharging the functions of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly shall have effect in relation to each House of the > > > > Legislature > > > > subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be made therein > > > > by the > > > > Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Council, as the case may be. > > > > > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, after consultation with the Speaker of the > > > > Legislative Assembly and the Chairman of the Legislative Council, > > > > may make- > > > > rules as to the procedure with respect to communications between the > > > > two > > > > Houses. > > > > > > > > 86. The Legislature may, for the purpose of the timely completion of > > > > financial business, regulate by law the procedure of, and the > > > > conduct of > > > > business in. the House of the Legislature in relation to any > > > > financial > > > > matter or to any Bill for the appropria-tion of moneys out of the > > > > Consolidated Fund of the State, and, if and so far as any provision > > > > of any > > > > law so made is inconsistent with any rule made by either House of > > > > the > > > > Legislature under sub-section (I) of section 85 or with any rule of > > > > standing > > > > order having effect in relation to either House of the Legislature > > > > under > > > > sub-section (2) of that section such provisions shall prevail. > > > > > > > > 87. Business in the Legislature shall be transacted in Urdu or in > > > > English. > > > > > > > > (1) Provided that the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the > > > > Chairman of > > > > the Legislative Council or person acting as such, as the case may > > > > be, may > > > > permit any member to address the House in Hindi, or if he cannot > > > > adequa-tely > > > > express himself in any of the aforesaid languages, to address the > > > > House in > > > > his mother-tongue. > > > > > > > > (2) The official records of the proceedings in the Legislature shall > > > > be kept > > > > in Urdu as well as in English. > > > > > > > > (3) The text of all Bills and amendments there of moved in and of > > > > all Acts > > > > passed by the Legis-lature which shall be treated as authoritative, > > > > shall be > > > > in English. > > > > > > > > 88. No discussion shall take place in the Legislature with respect > > > > to the > > > > conduct of any Judge of the Supreme Court or of the High Court in > > > > the > > > > discharge of his duties. > > > > > > > > 89. (1) The validity of any proceedings in the Legis-lature shall > > > > not be > > > > called in question -on the gro-unds of any alleged irregularity of > > > > procedure. > > > > > > > > (2) No officer or member of the Legislature in whom powers are > > > > vested by > > > > or under this Constitution for regulating procedure or the conduct > > > > of > > > > Business, or for maintaining order, in the Legislature shall be > > > > subject to > > > > the juris-diction of any court in respect of the exercise by him of > > > > those > > > > powers. > > > > > > > > 90. No Act of the Legislature and no provision in any such Act shall > > > > be > > > > invalid by reason only that some recommendation required by this > > > > Constitution was not given, if assent to that Act was given by the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > Legislative power of the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > > > > > 91. (1) If at any time, except when both Houses of the Legislature > > > > are in > > > > session, the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that circumstances exist > > > > which > > > > render it necessary for him to take immediate action; he may > > > > promulgate such > > > > Ordinances as the circums-tances appear to him to require. > > > > Provided that the power of making Ordinance under this Section shall > > > > extend > > > > only to those matters with respect to which the Legislature has > > > > power to > > > > make laws. > > > > > > > > (2) An Ordinance promulgated under this section shall have the same > > > > force > > > > and effect as an Act of the Legislature assented to by the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > but every such Ordinance: > > > > > > > > (a) shall be laid before both the Houses of the Legislature, and > > > > shall cease > > > > to operate at the expiration of six weeks from the re-assembly of > > > > the > > > > Legislature, or if be-fore tile expiration of that period a > > > > reso-lution > > > > disapproving it is passed by the Legislative Assembly and agreed to > > > > by > > > > Legislative Council, upon the resolution being agreed to by the > > > > Legislative > > > > Coun-cil, and - > > > > > > > > (b) may be withdrawn at any time by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > Explanation: - Where the Houses of the Legislature are summoned to > > > > re-assemble on different dates the period of six weeks shall be > > > > reckoned > > > > from the latter of those dates for the purposes of this sub-section. > > > > > > > > Breakdown of Constitutional Machinery. > > > > > > > > 92. (1) If at any time the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that a > > > > situation has > > > > arisen in which the Government of the State cannot be carried on in > > > > accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > > > by Proclamation: > > > > > > > > (a) assume to himself all or any of the func-tions of the Government > > > > of the > > > > State and all or any of the powers vested in or excercisable by > > > > anybody or > > > > authority in the State; > > > > > > > > (b) make such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i--Riyasat to be necessary or desirable for giving effect to > > > > the > > > > objects of the Procla-mation, including provisions for suspen-ding > > > > in whole > > > > or in part the operation of any provision of this Constitution > > > > rela-ting to > > > > any body or authority in the State: > > > > > > > > Provided that nothing in this section shall authorised die > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > to assume to himself any of the powers vested in or exer-cisable by > > > > the High > > > > Court or to suspend in whole or in part the operation of any > > > > provi-sion of > > > > this Constitution relating to the High Court. > > > > > > > > (2) Any such Proclamation may be revoked or carried by a subsequent > > > > Proclamation. > > > > > > > > (3) Any such Proclamation whether varied under sub-section (2) or > > > > not, > > > > shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous > > > > Proclama-tion, > > > > cease to operate on the expiration of six months from the date on > > > > which it > > > > divas first Issued. > > > > > > > > (4) If the Sadar-i-Riyasat by a Proclamation under this section > > > > assumes to > > > > himself any of the powers of the legislature to make laws, any law > > > > made by > > > > him in the exercise of that power shall, subject to the terms > > > > thereof, > > > > continue to have effect until two years have elapsed from the date > > > > on which > > > > the Proclamation ceases to have effect, unless sooner repealed or > > > > re-enacted > > > > by an Act of the Legislature, and any reference in this Constitution > > > > to any > > > > Acts of or laws made by the Legislature shall be construed as > > > > including a > > > > reference to such law. No Proclamation under sub-section (1) shall > > > > be issued > > > > except with the concurrence of the President of India. > > > > > > > > (6) Every Proclamation under this section shall, except where it is > > > > a > > > > Proclamation revoking a previous Proclamation, be laid before each > > > > house of > > > > the Legisiature as soon as it is convened. > > > > > > > > *PART VII* > > > > *THE HIGH COURT* > > > > > > > > 93. (1) There shall be a High Court for the State, consisting of a > > > > Chief > > > > Justice and two or more other judges. > > > > > > > > (2) The High Court exercising jurisdiction in relation to the State > > > > Immediately before the commencement of this Constitution shall be > > > > the High > > > > Court for the State. > > > > > > > > 94. The High Court shall be a court of record and shall have all the > > > > powers > > > > of such a courts including the power to punish for contempt of > > > > itself or of > > > > the courts subordinate to it. > > > > > > > > 95. Every Judge of the High Court shall be appointed by the > > > > President by > > > > Warrant under his hand and seal after consultation with the Chief > > > > Justice of > > > > India, the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and in the case of appointment of a > > > > Judge other > > > > than the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice of the High Court and > > > > shall hold > > > > office until he attains the age of sixty years. > > > > > > > > 96. A person shall not be qualified for appointment as a Judge of > > > > the High > > > > Court unless he is a citizen of India, and: > > > > > > > > (a) has for at least ten years held a judicial office in the State > > > > or in any > > > > other part of India; or > > > > > > > > (b) has for at least ten years been an advocate of the State High > > > > Court or > > > > of any other High Court in India or of two or more such courts in > > > > succession. > > > > > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this Section in omputing the > > > > period > > > > during which a person has been an advocate of a High Court. there > > > > shall be > > > > included any period during which the person has held judicial office > > > > after > > > > he became an advocate. > > > > > > > > 97. Every person appointed to be a Judge of the High > > > > Court, shall. before he enters upon his office, make an subscribe > > > > before the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him, an > > > > oath or > > > > affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the > > > > Fifth > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > 98. (1) There shall be paid to the Judges of the High > > > > Court such salaries as are specified in the Fourth Schedule. > > > > > > > > (a) Every Judge shall be entitled to such allowan-ces and to such > > > > rights in > > > > respect of leave of absence and pension as may from time to time be > > > > determined by or under law made by the Legislature, and until so > > > > determined, > > > > to such allowances and rights as are specified in the Fourth > > > > Schedule: > > > > > > > > Provided that neither the allowances of a Judge nor his rights in > > > > respect of > > > > leave of absence or pension shall be varied to his dis-advantage > > > > after his > > > > appointment: > > > > > > > > 99. (1) A Judge of the High Court may, by writing under his hand > > > > addressed > > > > to the President, resign his office. > > > > > > > > (2) A Judge of the High Court shall not be removed from his office > > > > except by > > > > an order of the President passed after an address by each House of > > > > the > > > > Legislature supported by a majority of the total membership of that > > > > House > > > > and by a majority of not less than two- thirds of the members of > > > > that House > > > > present and voting has been presented to the president > > > > in the same session for such removal on the > > > > ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity. > > > > > > > > (3) The Legislature may by law regulate the procedure for the > > > > presentation > > > > of an address and for the investigation and proof of the > > > > misbehaviour or > > > > incapacity of a Judge under sub-section (2). > > > > > > > > 100. (1) When the office of the Chief Justice is vacant or when the > > > > Chief > > > > Justice is by reason of absence or otherwise, unable to perform the > > > > duties > > > > of his office, the duties of the office shall be performed by such > > > > one of > > > > the other > > > > Judges of the Court as the President may appoint for the purpose. > > > > > > > > (2) When any Judge of the High Court other than the Chief Justice is > > > > by > > > > reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the > > > > duties of > > > > his office or is appointed to act temporarily as Chief Justice, the > > > > President may appoint a duly qualified person to act as a Judge of > > > > the Court > > > > until the permanent Judge has resumed his duties. > > > > > > > > 101. (1) The usual places of sitting of the High Court shall be > > > > Jammu and > > > > Srinagar. > > > > > > > > (2) The Chief Justice shall, with the approval of the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > determine the number of Judges who shall sit from time to time at > > > > Jammu and > > > > at Srinagar for such period as may be deemed necessary. > > > > > > > > (3) Whenever it appears to the Chief Justice that it is desirable > > > > that the > > > > High Courts should hold its sitting at a place other than Srinagar > > > > and > > > > Jummu, one or more Judges of the High Court as determined by him > > > > shall, with > > > > the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, sit at such place. > > > > > > > > 102. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the > > > > provisions of > > > > any law for the time being in force, the jurisdiction of and the law > > > > > > > > administered in the High Court and the respective powers of the > > > > Judges > > > > thereof in relation to the administration of justice in the court, > > > > including > > > > any power to make rules of court and to regulate the sittings of the > > > > court > > > > and of members thereof, sitting alone or in Division Courts, shall > > > > be the > > > > same as immedia-tely before the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > > > > > 103. The High Court shall have power to issue to any person or > > > > authority, > > > > including in appropriate cases any Government within the State, > > > > directions, > > > > orders or writs. including writs in the nature of habeas corpus, > > > > mandamus, > > > > prohibition, quo warranto and certiorari, or any of them. for any > > > > purpose > > > > other than those mentioned in clause (2A) of article 32 of the > > > > Constitution > > > > of India. > > > > > > > > 104. (1) The High Court shall have superintendence and control over > > > > all > > > > courts for the time being subject to its appellate or revisional > > > > jusrisdic-tion and all such courts shall be subordinate to the High > > > > Court. > > > > > > > > (I) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, > > > > the High > > > > court may: > > > > > > > > (a) call for returns from such courts, > > > > > > > > (b) make and issue general rules and prescribe forms for regulating > > > > the > > > > practice and pro-ceedings of such courts; and > > > > > > > > (c) Prescribe forms in which books, entries and accounts shall be > > > > kept by > > > > the officers of any such court. > > > > > > > > (3) The High Court may also settle tables of fees to be allowed to > > > > the > > > > sheriff and all clerks and officers of such courts and to attorneys, > > > > advo-cates and pleaders practicing therein: > > > > Provided that any rules made, forms prescrib-ed or tables settled > > > > under > > > > sub-section (2) or sub-section(3) shall not be inconsistent with the > > > > > > > > provision of any law for the time being in force, and shall require > > > > the > > > > previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > 105. If the High Court is satisfied that a case pending in a court > > > > subordinate to it involves a substantial question of law as to the > > > > interpretation of this Constitution or the Constitution of India the > > > > deter-mination of which is necessary for the disposal of the case, > > > > it shall > > > > withdraw the case and may: > > > > > > > > (a) either dispose of the case itself; or > > > > > > > > (b) determine the said question of law and return the case to the > > > > court from > > > > which the case has been so withdrawn together with a copy of its > > > > judgement > > > > on such question, and the said court shall on receipt thereof > > > > proceed to > > > > dispose of the case in conformity with such judgement. > > > > > > > > 106. No person who had held office as a Judge of the > > > > High Court after the commencement of this Con-stitution shall plead > > > > or act > > > > in any court or before any authority within the State. > > > > > > > > 107. (1) The High Court shall have and use as occa-sion may require > > > > a seal > > > > bearing a device and impression of the State emblem with an exergue > > > > or label > > > > surrounding the same with the inscription: > > > > > > > > "The seal of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir'' > > > > > > > > (2) The seal shall be delivered to. and kept in the custody of, the > > > > Registrar or such other officer of the court as the Chief Justice > > > > may > > > > designate in this behalf. > > > > > > > > 108. (1) Appointments of officers and servants of the High Court > > > > shall be > > > > made by the Chief Justice of the court or such other judge or > > > > officer of the > > > > court as he may direct: > > > > > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by rule require that in such > > > > cases as > > > > may be specified in the rule no person not already attached to the > > > > court > > > > shall be appointed to any office connected with the court save after > > > > > > > > consulta-tion with the State Public Service Commis-sion. > > > > > > > > (I) Subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, > > > > the > > > > conditions of service of the officers and servants of the High Court > > > > shall > > > > be such as may be prescribed by rules made by the High Court with > > > > the > > > > approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > (3) The administrative expenses of the High Court including all > > > > salaries, > > > > allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the officers and > > > > > > > > servants of the Court' shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fund > > > > of the > > > > State, and any fees or other moneys taken by the Court shall form > > > > part of > > > > that Fund. > > > > > > > > *SUBORDINATE COURTS* > > > > > > > > 109. (1) Appointment of persons to be, and the postings: and > > > > promotion off > > > > district judges in the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in > > > > > > > > con-sultation with the High Court. > > > > (2) A person not already in the service of the : State shall only > > > > be > > > > eligible to be appointed a district judge if he has been for not > > > > less than > > > > seven years an advocate or pleader and is recommended by the High > > > > Court for > > > > appointment. > > > > > > > > 110. Appointment of persons other than district judges to the > > > > judicial > > > > service of the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in > > > > accordance with > > > > rules made by him in that behalf after consulation with the Public > > > > Service > > > > Commission and with the High Court. > > > > > > > > 111. The control over district courts and courts sub-ordinate > > > > thereto > > > > including the posting and promo-tion of, and the grant of leave to, > > > > persons > > > > belong-ing to the judicial service of the State and holding any post > > > > > > > > inferior to the post of district judge shall be vested in the High > > > > Court, > > > > but nothing in this section shall be construed as taking away from > > > > any such > > > > person any right of appeal which he may have under the law > > > > regulating the > > > > conditions of his service or as authorising the High Court to deal > > > > with him > > > > otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of his service > > > > prescribed > > > > under such law. > > > > > > > > 112. In this part... > > > > > > > > (a) the expression "district judge'' includes additional district > > > > judge, > > > > assistant district judge, sessions judge, additional sessions judge > > > > and > > > > assistant sessions judge: > > > > > > > > (b) the expression "judical service" means a service consisting > > > > exclusively > > > > of persons inten-ded to fill the post of district judge, and other > > > > civil > > > > judicial posts inferior to the post of dis-trict judge. > > > > > > > > 113. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be public notification direct that the > > > > foregoing provisions of this part and any rules made thereunder > > > > shall with > > > > effect from such date as may be fixed by him in that behalf apply in > > > > > > > > relation to any class or classes of magis-trates in the State as > > > > they apply > > > > in relation to any persons appointed to the judicial service of the > > > > State > > > > Subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified in > > > > the > > > > notification. > > > > > > > > *PART VIII* > > > > *FINANCE, PROPERTY AND CONTRACTS* > > > > > > > > 114. No tax shall be levied or collected except by authority of law. > > > > > > > > 115. (1) Subject to the provisions of section 116, all revenues > > > > received by > > > > the Government, all loans raised by the Government by the issue of > > > > treasury bills, loans or ways and means advances and all moneys > > > > received by > > > > Government in repayment of loaned shall form one consolidated fund > > > > to be > > > > entitled "the Consolidated Fund of the State." > > > > (2) All other public moneys received by or on behalf of the > > > > Government shall > > > > be credited to the public account of the State. > > > > (3) No moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State shall be > > > > appropriated except in accordance with law and for the purposes and > > > > in the > > > > manner provided in this Constitution. > > > > > > > > 116. The Legislature may by law establish a Contingency Fund in the > > > > nature > > > > of an impress to be entitled > > > > "the Contingency Fund of the State" into which shall be paid from > > > > time to > > > > time such sums as may be determined by such law, and the said Fund > > > > shall be > > > > placed at the disposal of the Sadar-i--Riyasat to enable advances to > > > > be made > > > > by him out of such fund for the purposes of meeting unforeseen > > > > expenditure > > > > pending authorisation of such expendi-ture by Legislature by law > > > > under > > > > section 82 or 83. > > > > > > > > 117. The State may make any grants for any public purpose, > > > > notwithstanding > > > > that the purpose is not one with expect to which the Legislature may > > > > make. > > > > > > > > 118. The custody of the Consolidated Fund of the State and the > > > > Contingency > > > > Funds of the State, the payment of moneys into such funds, the > > > > withdrawal of > > > > moneys therefrom, the custody of public moneys other than those > > > > credited to > > > > such Fund received by or on behalf of the Government, their payment > > > > into the > > > > public account of the State and the withdrawal of moneys from such > > > > account > > > > and all other matters connected with or ancillary to matters > > > > aforesaid shall > > > > be regulated by law made by the Legislature and, until provision in > > > > that > > > > behalf is so made, shall be regulated by rules made by the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > 119. All moneys received by or deposited with: > > > > > > > > (a) any officer employed in connection with the affairs of the State > > > > in his > > > > capacity as such, other than revenues or public moneys raised or > > > > received by > > > > the Government; or > > > > > > > > (b) an, court within the State to the credit of any cause, matter, > > > > account > > > > or persons, shall be paid into the public account of the State. > > > > > > > > 120. Any property within the State which, if this Constitution had > > > > not come > > > > up into operation, would have accrued to the Government or any other > > > > authority hi the State by escheat or lapse, or as bona-vacantia for > > > > want of > > > > a rightful owner, shall vest in the State. > > > > > > > > 121. (1) The executive power of the State shall extend, subject to > > > > any law > > > > made by the State Legisla-ture, to the carrying on of any trade or > > > > busi-ness, and to the grant, scale, disposition or mortgage of any > > > > property > > > > held for the purposes of the State, and to the purchase or > > > > acquisi-tion of > > > > property for those purposes and to the making of contracts. > > > > > > > > (2) All property acquired for the purposes of the State shall vest > > > > in the > > > > State. > > > > > > > > 122. (1) All contracts made in the exercise of the executive power > > > > of the > > > > State shall be expressed to be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and all > > > > such > > > > contracts and all assurance of property made in the exercise of that > > > > power > > > > shall be executed on behalf of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by such persons > > > > and in > > > > such manner as he may direct or authorise. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be personally liable in respect of > > > > any > > > > contract or assurance made or executed for the purposes of this > > > > Constitution, or for the purposes any of enact-ment relating to the > > > > Government of the State heretofore in force, nor shall any person > > > > making or > > > > executing any such contract or assurance on his behalf be personally > > > > liable > > > > in respect thereof. > > > > > > > > 123. The Government may sue or be sued by the name of the State of > > > > Jammu and > > > > Kashmir and may, subject to any provisions which may be made by Act > > > > of the > > > > Legislature enacted by virtue of powers conferred by this > > > > Constitution, sue > > > > or be sued in relation to its affairs in the like cases as the State > > > > might > > > > have sued or been sued if this Constitution had not been enacted. > > > > > > > > *PART IX* > > > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE* > > > > > > > > 124. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature > > > > may by > > > > law regulate the recruitment and conditions of service of persons > > > > appointed, > > > > to public services and posts in connection with the affairs of the > > > > State: > > > > > > > > Provided that it shall be competent for the Sadar--i-Riyasat or such > > > > person > > > > as he may direct, to make rules regulating the recruitment and the > > > > conditions of services of persons appointed, to such services and > > > > posts > > > > until provisions in that behalf is made by or under an Act of the > > > > Legislature under this section, and any rules so made shall effect > > > > subject > > > > to the provisions of any such Act. > > > > > > > > 125. (1) Except expressly provided by this Constitution, every > > > > person who is > > > > a member of a civil service of the State or holds any civil post > > > > under the State hold office during the pleasure of the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > (2) Notwithstanding that a person holding a civil post under the > > > > State holds > > > > office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, any contract > > > > under which > > > > a person, not being a member of a civil service of the State, is > > > > appointed > > > > to hold such a post man, if the Sadar-i-Riyasat deems it necessary > > > > in order > > > > to secure the services of a person having special qualifications, > > > > provide > > > > for tile payment to him of compensation, if before the expiration of > > > > an > > > > agreed period that post is abolished or he is, for reasons not > > > > connected > > > > with any miscon-duct on his part required to vacate that post. > > > > > > > > 126. (1) No person who is a member of a civil service of tile State > > > > or holds > > > > a civil post under the State shall be distressed or removed by an > > > > authority > > > > subordinate to that by which he was appointed. > > > > > > > > (2) No such person as aforesaid shall be dismissed or removed or > > > > reduced in > > > > rank until he has been given a reasonable opportunity of show-ing > > > > cause > > > > against the action proposed to be taken in regard to him: > > > > > > > > Provided that this sub-section shall not apply: > > > > > > > > (a) where a person is dismissed or removed or reduced in rank on the > > > > ground > > > > of con-duct which has led to his conviction on a criminal charge; > > > > > > > > (b) where an authority empowered to dismiss or remove a person or to > > > > reduce > > > > him in rank is satisfied that for some reason, to be recorded by > > > > that > > > > authority in writing, it is not reasonably practicable to give to > > > > that > > > > person an opportunity of showing cause; or > > > > > > > > (c) where the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that in the interests of > > > > the > > > > security of the State it is not expedient to give to that person > > > > such an > > > > opportunity. > > > > > > > > (3) If any question arises whether it is reasonably > > > > practicable to give to any person an oppor-tunity of showing cause > > > > under > > > > sub-section. > > > > > > > > (4) The decision thereon of the authority empo-wered to dismiss or > > > > remove > > > > such person or to reduce him in rank, as the case may be, shall be > > > > final. > > > > > > > > 127. Until other Provisional is made in this behalf under the > > > > constitution, > > > > all the laws in force im-mediately before the commencement of this > > > > Consti-tution and applicable to any public service or any post which > > > > continues to exist after the commence-ment of this Constitution as > > > > service > > > > or post under the- State, shall continue in force so far as > > > > consistent with > > > > the provisions of this Constitu-tion. > > > > > > > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION* > > > > > > > > 128. There shall be a Public Service Commission (here-inafter > > > > referred to in > > > > this Part as "the Commi-ssion" for the State. > > > > > > > > 129. (1) The Chairman and other members of the Commission shall be > > > > appointed > > > > by the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > > > > > Provided that as nearly as may be one-half of the members of the > > > > Commission > > > > shall be persons who at the dates of their respective appointments > > > > have held > > > > office for at least ten years under the Government. > > > > > > > > (2) A member of the Commission shall hold office of a terms of five > > > > years > > > > from the date on which he enters upon his office or until he attains > > > > the age > > > > of sixty-five years, whichever is earlier: > > > > > > > > Provided that: > > > > > > > > (a) a member of the Commission may, by writing under his hand > > > > addressed to > > > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, resign his office > > > > > > > > (b) a member of the Commission may be removed from his office in the > > > > manner > > > > hereinafter provided. > > > > > > > > (3) A person who holds office as a member of the Commission shall on > > > > the > > > > expiration of his term of office, be ineligible for re-appointment > > > > to that > > > > office. > > > > > > > > 130. (1) Subject to the provisions of sub-section (3), the Chairman > > > > or any > > > > other member of the Commission shall only be removed from his office > > > > by > > > > order of the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the ground of misbehaviour after the > > > > High > > > > Court on reference being made to it by the Sadar-i--Riyasat, has, on > > > > inquiry > > > > held in that behalf, reported that the Chairman or such other > > > > member, as the > > > > case may be ought on any such ground to be removed. > > > > > > > > The Sadar-i-Riyasat may suspend from office the Chairman or any > > > > other member > > > > of the Commission in respect of whom a reference has been made to > > > > the High > > > > Court under sub-section (l) until the Sadar-i-Riyasat has passed > > > > orders on > > > > receipt of the report of the High Court on such reference. > > > > > > > > (3) Notwithstanding anything in sub-section (1) the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > may by > > > > order remove from office the Chairman or any other mem-ber of the > > > > Commission > > > > if the Chairman on. such other member, as the case may be - > > > > > > > > (a) is adjudged an insolvent; or > > > > > > > > (b) engages during his term of office in any paid employment out > > > > side the > > > > duties of his office; or > > > > > > > > (c) is, in the opinion of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, unfit to continue in > > > > office > > > > by reason of infirmity of mind or body. > > > > > > > > (4) If the Chairman or any other member of the Commission is or > > > > becomes in > > > > anyway concern-ed or interested in any contract or agreement made by > > > > or on > > > > behalf of the Government of the State, the Government of India or > > > > the > > > > Government of any other State in India or participates in anyway in > > > > the > > > > profit thereof or in any benefit or emolument arising therefrom > > > > otherwise > > > > than as a member and in common with other members of an incorporated > > > > > > > > company, he shall, for the purposes of sub-section (1), be deemed to > > > > be > > > > guilty misbehavi-our. > > > > > > > > 131. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be regulations: > > > > > > > > (a) determine the number of members of the Commission and their > > > > conditions > > > > of service; and > > > > > > > > (b) make provision with respect to the num-ber of members of the > > > > staff of > > > > the Commission and - their conditions of service; > > > > > > > > Provided that the conditions of service of a member of the > > > > Commission shall > > > > not be varied to his disadvantage after his ap-pointment. > > > > > > > > 132. On ceasing to hold office the Chairman and the members of the > > > > Commission shall be ineligible for further office under the > > > > Government of > > > > the State, but a member other than the Chairman shall be eligible > > > > for > > > > appointment as a Chairman of the Commission. > > > > > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this sec-tion; the office of > > > > Minister or > > > > Deputy Minister shall not be deemed to be an office under the > > > > Government of > > > > the state. > > > > > > > > 133. (1) It shall be the duty of the Commissions to conduct > > > > examinations for > > > > appointment to the services of the State. > > > > > > > > (2) The Commission shall be consulted - > > > > > > > > (a) on all matters relating to methods of recruitment to civil > > > > services and > > > > for civil posts; > > > > > > > > (b) on the principles to be followed in making appointments to civil > > > > services and posts and in making promotions and transfers from one > > > > service > > > > to another and on the suitability of candidate for such > > > > appointments, > > > > promotions or transfers; > > > > > > > > (c) on all disciplinary matters affecting a person serving under the > > > > Government including memorials or petitions relating to such > > > > matters; > > > > and it shall be the duty of the Commission to advise on any matter > > > > so > > > > referred to them or on any other matter which the Sadar-i--Riyasat > > > > may refer > > > > to them: > > > > > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may make regulations specifying > > > > the > > > > matters in which either generally, or in any particular class of > > > > cases or in > > > > any particular circumstances, it shall not be necessary for the > > > > Commission > > > > to be consulted. > > > > > > > > (3) Nothing in sub-section (2) shall require the Commission to be > > > > consulted > > > > as respects the manner in which a provision may be made by the State > > > > for the > > > > reservation of appointment or posts in favour of any class of > > > > permanent > > > > residents which in the opinion of the Govern-ment is not adequately > > > > represented in the services under the State. > > > > > > > > (4) All regulations made under the proviso to sub-section (2) by the > > > > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be laid for not less than fourteen days before > > > > each > > > > House of the Legislature as soon as possible after they made, and > > > > shall be > > > > subject to such modifications, whether by way or repeal or > > > > amendment, as the > > > > Legislative Assembly may make during the session in which they are > > > > so laid. > > > > > > > > 134. If the office of the Chairman of the Commission becomes vacant > > > > or if > > > > the Chairman is by reason of absence or for any other reason unable > > > > to > > > > perform the duties of his office, those duties shall until some > > > > person > > > > appointed under sub-section (1) of section 129 to the vacant office > > > > has > > > > entered on the duties thereof or, as the case may be until the > > > > Chairman has > > > > resumed his duties, be performed by such one of the other members of > > > > the > > > > Commission as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may appoint for the purpose. > > > > > > > > 135. An Act made by the Legislature may provide for the exercise of > > > > additional functions by the Commission as respects the services of > > > > the State > > > > and also as respects the services of any local authority or other > > > > body > > > > corporate constituted by law or of any public institution. > > > > > > > > 136. The expenses of the Commission, including any salaries, > > > > allowances and > > > > pensions payable to or in respect of the members or the staff of the > > > > Com-mission, shall be charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State. > > > > > > > > 137. It shall be the duty of the Commission to present annually to > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat a report as to the work done by the Commission and > > > > the > > > > Sadar-I--Riyasat, on receipt of such report, shall cause a copy > > > > thereof > > > > together with a memorandum explai-ning, as respects the cases, if > > > > any, where > > > > the advice of the Commission was not accepted, the reasons for such > > > > non-acceptance to be laid before the Legislature. > > > > > > > > *PART X* > > > > *ELECTIONS* > > > > > > > > 138. (1) The superintendence, direction and control of the > > > > preparation of > > > > the electoral rolls for, and the conduct of, the elections held > > > > under Part > > > > VI shall, be vested in an Election Commissio-ner to be appointed by > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, may, for such period as he may deem > > > > necessary > > > > appoint one or more Deputy Election Commissioners to assist the > > > > Election > > > > Commissioner in the per-formance of the functions conferred by > > > > sub-section > > > > (1). > > > > > > > > (3) subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, > > > > the > > > > Conditions of service of the Election Commissioner and the Deputy > > > > Election > > > > Commissioner shall be such as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order > > > > specify. > > > > > > > > (4) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may make acts viable to the Election > > > > Commissioner > > > > such staff as may be necessary for the discharge of the functions > > > > conferred > > > > on the Election Commissioner by sub-section (1). > > > > > > > > 139. There shall be one general electoral roll for every territorial > > > > constituency for election to either House of the Legislature and no > > > > person > > > > shall be ineligible for inclusion in any such roll or claim to be > > > > inclu-ded > > > > in any special electoral roll for any such consti-tuency on grounds > > > > only of > > > > religion, race, caste, sex or any of them. > > > > > > > > 140. The elections to the Legislative Assembly shall be on the basis > > > > of > > > > adult suffrage; that is to say, every person who is a permanent > > > > resident of > > > > the State and who is not less than twenty-one years of age on such > > > > date as > > > > may be fixed in that behalf by or under any law made by the > > > > Legislature and > > > > is not otherwise disqualified under this Constitution or any law > > > > made by the > > > > Legislature on the ground of non-residence, unsoundness of mind, > > > > crime or > > > > corruptor illegal practice, shall be registered as a voter at any > > > > such > > > > election. > > > > > > > > Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may > > > > from > > > > time to time by law make provision with respect to all matters > > > > relating to, > > > > or in connection with elections to either House of the Legislature, > > > > including the preparation of elec-toral rolls, the delimitation of > > > > constituencies, appointment of election tribunals and all other > > > > matters > > > > necessary for securing the due constitution of the two Houses. > > > > > > > > 142. Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution: > > > > > > > > (a) the validity of any law relating to the delimita-tion of > > > > territorial > > > > constituencies for the pur-pose of electing members of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly or the allotment of seats to such constituencies, made or > > > > purporting to be made under section 141, shall not be called in > > > > ques-tion in > > > > any court; > > > > > > > > (b) no election to either House of the Legislature shall be called > > > > in > > > > question except by an elec-tion petition present to such authority > > > > and in > > > > such manner as may be provided for by or under any law made by the > > > > Legislature. > > > > > > > > *PART XI* > > > > *MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS* > > > > > > > > 143. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be answerable to any court > > > > for the > > > > exercise of performance of the powers and duties of his office or > > > > for any > > > > act done or purposing to be done by him in the exercise and > > > > performance of > > > > those -powers and duties. > > > > > > > > Provided that nothing in this subjection-sec-tion shall be construed > > > > as > > > > restricting the right of any person to bring appropriate > > > > proceed-ings > > > > against the Government. > > > > > > > > (2) No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or > > > > continued > > > > against the Sadar-I--Riyasat in any court during his term of office. > > > > No > > > > process for the arrest or imprisonment of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall > > > > issue > > > > from any court during his term of office. > > > > > > > > No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > shall be instituted during his term of office in any court in > > > > res-pect of > > > > any act done or purporting to be done by him in his personal > > > > capacity, > > > > whether be-fore or after he entered upon his office as > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > until the expiration of two months next after notice in writing has > > > > been > > > > delivered to the Sadar-i-Riyasat or left at his office stating the > > > > nature of > > > > the proceedings the cause of action therefor, the name, descri-ption > > > > and > > > > place of residence of the party by whom such proceedings are to be > > > > instituted and the relief which he claims. > > > > > > > > 144. The flag of the State shall be rectangular in shape and red in > > > > colour > > > > with three equidistant white vertical stripes of equal with next to > > > > the > > > > staff and a white plough in the middle with the handle facing the > > > > stripes. > > > > > > > > The ratio of the length of the flag to its width shall be 3:2. > > > > > > > > 145. The official language of the State shall be Urdu, but the > > > > English > > > > language shall, unless the Legisla-ture by law otherwise provides > > > > continue > > > > to be used for all the official purpose of the State for which it > > > > was being > > > > used immediately before the com-mencement of this Constitution. > > > > > > > > . The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, as soon as may be, after the > > > > commencement of > > > > the Constitution establish an Academy of Arts, Culture and Language, > > > > where > > > > opportunities will be afforded for the development of Art and > > > > Culture of the > > > > State and for the development of Hindi, Urdu and other regional > > > > languages of > > > > the State specified in the Sixth Schedule.** > > > > > > > > *PART XII* > > > > *AMENDMENTS OF THE CONSTITUTION* > > > > > > > > 147. An amendment of this constitution may be initia-ted only by the > > > > introduction of a Bill for the pur-pose in the Legislative Assembly > > > > and when > > > > the Bill is passed in each House by a majority of not less than > > > > two-thirds > > > > of the total membership of at the House, it shall be presented to > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for his assent and, upon such assent being given to > > > > the > > > > Bill, the Constitution shall stand amended in accordance with the > > > > terms of > > > > the Bill: > > > > > > > > Provided that a Bill providing for the abolition of the Legislative > > > > Council > > > > may be intro-duced in the Legislative Assembly and passed by it > > > > majority of > > > > the total membership of the Assembly and by a majority of not less > > > > than > > > > two-thirds of the members of the Assembly present and voting: > > > > > > > > Provided further that no Bill or amendment seeking to make any > > > > change in: > > > > > > > > (a) this section; > > > > > > > > (b) the provisions of the sections 3 and 5; or > > > > > > > > (c) the provisions of the constitution of India as applicable in > > > > relation to > > > > the State; > > > > > > > > shall be introduced or moved in either house -of the Legislature. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 10:09:05 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:09:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TASHKENT AGREEMENT Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712062039s21ba5d21l53b2ad42d5099c82@mail.gmail.com> The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan, having met at Tashkent and having discussed the existing relations between India and Pakistan hereby declare their firm resolve to restore normal and peaceful relations between their countries and to promote understanding and friendly relations between their peoples. They consider the attainment of these objectives of vital importance for the welfare of the 600 million people of India and Pakistan. (i) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan agree that both sides will exert all efforts to create good neighborly relations between India and Pakistan in accordance with the United Nations Charter. They reaffirm their obligation under the Charter not to have recourse to force and to settle their disputes through peaceful means. They considered that the interests of peace in their region and particularly in the Indo-Pakistan subcontinent and indeed, the interests of the peoples of India ad Pakistan were not served by the continuance of tension between the two countries. It was against this background that Jammu & Kashmir was discussed, and each of the sides set forth its respective position. *Troops Withdrawal* (ii) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that all armed personnel of the two countries shall be withdrawn not later than 25 February 1966 to the positions they held prior to 5 August 1965, and both sides shall observe the cease-fire terms on the cease-fire line. (iii) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that relations between India and Pakistan shall be based on the principle of non-interference in the internal affairs of each other. (iv) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that both sides will discourage any propaganda directed against the other country and will encourage propaganda which promotes the development of friendly relations between the two countries. (v) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that the High Commissioner of India to Pakistan and the High Commissioner of Pakistan of India will return to their posts and that the normal functioning of diplomatic missions of both countries will be restored. Both Governments shall observe the Vienna Convention of 1961 on Diplomatic Intercourse. *Trade Relations* (vi) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed to consider measures towards the restoration of economic and trade relations, communications as well as cultural exchanges between India and Pakistan, and to take measures to implement the existing agreement between India and Pakistan. (vii) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that they will give instructions to their respective authorities to carry out the repatriation of the prisoners of war. (viii) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that the two sides will continue the discussions of questions relating to the problems of refugees and eviction of illegal immigrations. They also agreed that both sides will create conditions which will prevent the exodus of people. They further agree to discuss the return of the property and assets taken over by either side in connection with the conflict. *Soviet Leaders Thanked* (ix) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that the two sides will continue meetings both at highest and at other levels of matters of direct concern to both countries. Both sides have recognized the need to set up joint Indian-Pakistani bodies which will report to their Governments in order to decide what further steps should be taken. (x) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan record their feelings, deep appreciation and gratitude to the leaders of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Government and personally to the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR for their constructive, friendly and noble part in bringing about the present meeting which has resulted in mutually satisfactory results. They also express to the Government and friendly people of Uzbekistan their sincere thankfulness for their overwhelming reception and generous hospitality. They invite the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR to witness this declaration. Prime Minister of India *Lal Bahadur Shastri * President of Pakistan *Mohammed Ayub Khan* Tashkent, January 10, 1966 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 17:47:08 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 17:47:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Anjum Chaudri Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712080417j1c31be82r51e071c0588d1b2f@mail.gmail.com> http://youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4# From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 18:42:42 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 18:42:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu Protests in Malaysia In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712052041g6df4eaaewed3dc8df62b092b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712052041g6df4eaaewed3dc8df62b092b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990712080512u79c4934ewcd2c98d994a5e7b5@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, Typically, each of us who post here do it with a specific view point. What's yours? Do you think the Malaysian Government is justified in suppressing voices / activities against the country's constitution / religion? Rgds, Partha .............. On Dec 6, 2007 10:11 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > http://friskodude.blogspot.com/2007/11/hindu-protests-in-malaysia.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 19:25:39 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 05:55:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWN Dec 5, 2007) Message-ID: <230080.4460.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Common sense under attack By Mahir Ali http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mahir/arc-mahir.htm WHEN she arrived in Khartoum four months ago, Gillian Gibbons couldn’t possibly have had any inkling that she’d be headed back to England some four months later, following a stint in prison. In a statement issued last Saturday, the incarcerated 54-year-old Liverpudlian said she wasn’t keen to leave Sudan and would much rather return to work. “The Sudanese people in general have been pleasant and very generous,’’ she noted, “and I’ve had nothing but good experiences during my four months here.” What makes the level of equanimity and goodwill remarkable is that the previous day, following Friday prayers, there were mobs baying for her blood, demanding that the 15-day prison sentence handed down by a Khartoum court be upgraded to death by a firing squad. So, what exactly did Gibbons do to inspire such demands for vengeance? Well, a month into her stint as a teacher at the Unity School, where she was in charge of seven-year-olds, she came up with a device for engaging the kids’ interest in one of the designated topics: bears. One of the children brought her teddy bear to school and her classmates were assigned the task of taking the teddy home, one by one, and writing about their experiences. Before the project got underway, Gibbons asked the kids to choose a name for the cuddly toy. There were various suggestions, including Abdullah and Hassan. A little boy called Mohammad put forward his own name for consideration. The teacher arranged a class vote and Mohammad won hands down. She accepted the democratic verdict. Reasonably enough, the idea that anyone would find this objectionable appears not to have so much as crossed her mind. Two months later, police arrived at the Unity compound to arrest Gibbons for insulting Islam. The school’s director, Robert Boulos, was told that some parents had complained to the ministry of education. It subsequently turned out that the sole complainant was in fact an office assistant at the school, who served as the main witness for the prosecution - or, to be more precise, persecution. The verdict of 15 days in prison followed by deportation occasioned sighs of relief, given that it could have been worse: six months in prison and 40 lashes. At the weekend, two Muslim British peers were engaged in negotiations with the Sudanese authorities in Khartoum, and they were expected to fly back to London with Gibbons after obtaining a presidential pardon. That’s all very well, but the point remains that the only insult in this case - an insult to common sense, if not to Islam - came from those who pursued a vendetta on patently absurd grounds. It has been argued that Gibbons erred inadvertently, that as a novice in Sudan she was unaware of cultural sensitivities. That’s an unnecessarily patronising point of view; I suspect she erred only in failing to make an allowance for the idiocy of some Muslims. It has also been suggested that the Sudanese government stoked the controversy in order to draw international attention away from the monumental tragedy in Darfur. There may be some truth in that, but there’s probably more logic in sheeting home the blame to sheer dogmatic blockheadedness. An example of considerably more egregious judicial malice has, meanwhile, surfaced in Saudi Arabia, where a victim of gang rape has been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison. The supposed logic behind this punishment illustrates the extent to which the kingdom operates in a different time zone from much of the world - in terms of centuries rather than hours. The unnamed, recently married 19-year-old, who has been dubbed the Qatif girl in a reference to her mainly Shia hometown, apparently wished to retrieve a photograph of herself from a former male acquaintance before she moved in with her husband, so she arranged a meeting with the young man. While the two of them were in a car, they were accosted by a couple of men armed with knives, who took them to an isolated area. The young woman was violated 14 times by seven men, three of whom also raped her companion. When the case came before a Qatif court, the judges sentenced four of the assailants to terms ranging up to five years for kidnapping, but also sentenced the Qatif girl and her male friend to 90 lashes each for the ‘crime’ of being in each other’s company. Her lawyer, a human rights advocate by the name of Abdul-Rehman al-Lahem, filed an appeal and also brought the case to the notice of the media. He was consequently stripped of his licence, and his client’s sentence was more than doubled to 200 lashes plus six months in prison. There are grounds for assuming that officially sanctioned crimes against humanity along these lines are not exactly a rarity in Saudi Arabia, although they don’t always attract international attention. Queried on the subject during his Annapolis trip last week, Prince Saud al-Faisal commented: “What is outraging about this case is that it is being used against the Saudi government and its people.” In fact, what is ‘outraging’ about this case is that the victims of an abominable crime have been sentenced to humiliating and painful punishments on utterly frivolous grounds, and that too on the basis of depositions by their assailants. Such instances make it extremely difficult to take Islamic justice seriously. The Saudi justice ministry has sought to malign the Qatif girl by saying that she has confessed to having an extramarital affair - which, apart from probably being untrue, is neither here nor there. The only hopeful signs in this context are al-Lahem’s endeavours, plus the fact that the Qatif girl’s husband has chosen to serve as a pillar of support instead of divorcing her. What’s more, at least a couple of Saudi columnists have dared to raise their voices against their nation’s system of injustice. Much of the West, meanwhile, continues to court Riyadh as if it were a bastion of sanity and stability in an otherwise turbulent region. Inanities in the name of Islam are not restricted to Sudan and Saudi Arabia, of course. Pakistan frequently emerges as a venue for all manner of excesses. Recent examples from a few neighbouring countries, however, should suffice to bear out this contention. In Iran, 27-year-old Dr Zahra Baniyaghoub died while in the custody of the morality and virtue police after she and her fiancé were arrested for chatting to each other in a public park. The authorities claimed she committed suicide, but Baniyaghoub’s family doesn’t accept this explanation, evidently for very good reasons, and has engaged the services of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Shirin Ebadi to press for an inquiry. In India, Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen continues to be hounded by Muslims for her supposed blasphemy, while in Turkey Erol Karaaslan, the translator and publisher of Richard Dawkins’ atheist treatise The God Delusion faces charges of inciting religious hatred. Karaaslan is about as guilty as Gillian Gibbons. It should be clear to even the meanest intelligence that the dimwits engaged in turning molehills into mountains are doing a monumental disservice to the faith they purport to uphold. The writer is a journalist based in Sydney. mahir.worldview at gmail.com --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From elkamath at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 11:44:18 2007 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 22:14:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Announcing : CACIM FORUM FELLOWSHIPS on the World Social Forum Process Message-ID: <178255.19411.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> [Please circulate this widely ! Sorry for any cross-posting] APPLICATIONS ARE INVITED FOR CACIM FORUM FELLOWSHIPS (3) Application Deadline : JANUARY 5 2008 More info @ http://cacim.net/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Fellowships CACIM (Critical Action - Centre in Movement), an initiative towards cultivating and nurturing a culture of critical reflexivity and action in individual and public work, is offering three Fellowships on the World Social Forum process. CACIM is involved in detailed research on and documentation of the Forum and other related processes (such as social movements); plays an active role in the organising process of WSF in India and globally; publishes books, reports, newsletters, and bibliographies on the Forum, both in Hindi and English; and organises debates and discussions around related issues. For more details of our work on the Forum, see www.openspaceforum.net and www.cacim.net. This is the first round of the award of these Fellowships. CACIM is instituting the Forum Fellowships in order to provide opportunities for young activists, students, and researchers to conduct studies on different aspects of the Forum process in India and globally. This would include intensive interaction with social and popular movements and civil organisations and networks in India and South Asia who are part of the WSF process, and also with movements and organisations who have either boycotted or stayed away from the WSF and/or who take part in similar but alternative processes. Through this, we hope that the Fellowships will provide the opportunity to the Fellows to also engage with and study wider socio-political processes in the country, in order for them to develop, broaden, and deepen a critical engagement with the Forum process. We would like them to critically examine the procedural depth, methodology, and potentialities of the Forum and the 'new politics' of 'open space' that it professes and the impact it and these politics may be having on socio-political movements and processes in the region, by undertaking surveys, interviews, and discussions with the main actors in the process. The Forum Fellowships, offered for a period of three months (January 16 – April 15 2008), will provide candidates with Rs. 40,000 for the preparation of a research paper to be presented at a Workshop on the WSF that CACIM will organise during May-June 2007. Selected Fellows will be provided with literature published on the Forum and with contacts in India and worldwide, and in general, will receive assistance in sharpening their proposal; and CACIM will take care of travel, boarding, and lodging for attending the Workshop. For this first round of Fellowships, we are accepting applications only from people living within India, both Indian and other nationalities. Candidates may be from any discipline and background. No formal academic qualification is required for application. Applications can be in English or Hindi. Due to our own limitations at the moment, we are not able to entertain applications in other languages but we would welcome ideas for including them in this endeavour. The following are some suggested themes for study, but not necessarily limited to these areas only : - The dynamics of WSF as well as of Mumbai Resistance in 2004 and of other autonomous spaces, counter forums, mobilisation campaigns, and other forums that have emerged around the WSF process in India and elsewhere in the world. - The experiences, visions, aspirations, and expectations of the various sections of society of the WSF, such as the Dalits, Adivasis, women, the physically challenged, sexual minorities, and others, as well as their questions and dilemmas in this regard, through their engagement with the Forum process. - The social and political significance of Forum process, its relationship with other movements, its organising process, and its regional and global expansion. - The political economy and the organising principles of the Forum, in India and worldwide. Please send your application in along with : - A short abstract indicating the scope and nature of your proposed research and the approach you would like to take to it - One writing sample (published or unpublished), and - Your detailed CV to Madhuresh, CACIM Programme Coordinator by email (cacim at cacim.net) or post by January 5 2008. CACIM, A-3 Defence Colony, New Delhi 110 024, India Ph : +91-11-4155 1521, +91-11-2433 2451 cacim at cacim.net, www.cacim.net / www.openspaceforum.net ______________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Dec 9 00:31:56 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 00:31:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWN Dec 5, 2007) In-Reply-To: <230080.4460.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <230080.4460.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <344bb495cd1e1e5db560ed540a0ab391@sarai.net> Dear Kshemendra, Thank you for this forward. Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan are indeed sad spectacles of the depths to which theocracies and dictatorships will descend. The recent sad spectacle of a kindergarten teacher having to go to prison because of the teddy bear episode in Sudan indicates the moral bankruptcy of islamist regimes. Incidentally, Indian public and private sector companies, especially in the Petro Chemicals sector are a big player in Sudan, even though the Sudanese state is implicated in gross abuses, especially in the Darfur region. I think that a concerted effort to expose the level of official and corporate Indian backing for corrupt Islamist regimes such as those that rule in Sudan would be timely. I think that the extent of influence that the Saudi regime has purchased in India (in cold hard cash) also needs to be thought about. I am sure that if tomorrow an Indian university decided to name its library after George Bush there would (rightly) be a furore, and yet, I was dismayed a few months ago to discover, that Jamia Millia Islamia (a university where I studied) had decided to name its library after the corrupt Saudi Monarch King Abdullah, who presides over the most sexist regime on earth. Every self respecting woman student of Jamia Millia Islamia should could consider herself personally insulted whenever she has to enter this library building. It is sad that no Indian newspaper or television channel has ever thought it necessary to send journalists to probe the extent to which the Indian state provides aid and succor to such brutal regimes and their clients, be they in Burma or in Sudan. regards Shuddha On 7:25 pm 12/08/07 Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Common sense under attack > By Mahir Ali > > http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mahir/arc-mahir.htm > > > WHEN she arrived in Khartoum four months ago, Gillian Gibbons > couldn’t possibly have had any inkling that she’d be headed back to > England some four months later, following a stint in prison. > > In a statement issued last Saturday, the incarcerated 54-year-old > Liverpudlian said she wasn’t keen to leave Sudan and would much rather > return to work. “The Sudanese people in general have been pleasant and > very generous,’’ she noted, “and I’ve had nothing but good > experiences during my four months here.” > > What makes the level of equanimity and goodwill remarkable is that > the previous day, following Friday prayers, there were mobs baying for > her blood, demanding that the 15-day prison sentence handed down by a > Khartoum court be upgraded to death by a firing squad. So, what exactly > did Gibbons do to inspire such demands for vengeance? > > Well, a month into her stint as a teacher at the Unity School, where > she was in charge of seven-year-olds, she came up with a device for > engaging the kids’ interest in one of the designated topics: bears. > One of the children brought her teddy bear to school and her classmates > were assigned the task of taking the teddy home, one by one, and > writing about their experiences. > > Before the project got underway, Gibbons asked the kids to choose a > name for the cuddly toy. There were various suggestions, including > Abdullah and Hassan. A little boy called Mohammad put forward his own > name for consideration. The teacher arranged a class vote and Mohammad > won hands down. She accepted the democratic verdict. Reasonably enough, > the idea that anyone would find this objectionable appears not to have > so much as crossed her mind. Two months later, police arrived at the > Unity compound to arrest Gibbons for insulting Islam. The school’s > director, Robert Boulos, was told that some parents had complained to > the ministry of education. It subsequently turned out that the sole > complainant was in fact an office assistant at the school, who served > as the main witness for the prosecution - or, to be more precise, > persecution. > > The verdict of 15 days in prison followed by deportation occasioned > sighs of relief, given that it could have been worse: six months in > prison and 40 lashes. At the weekend, two Muslim British peers were > engaged in negotiations with the Sudanese authorities in Khartoum, and > they were expected to fly back to London with Gibbons after obtaining a > presidential pardon. That’s all very well, but the point remains that > the only insult in this case - an insult to common sense, if not to > Islam - came from those who pursued a vendetta on patently absurd > grounds. It has been argued that Gibbons erred inadvertently, that as a > novice in Sudan she was unaware of cultural sensitivities. That’s an > unnecessarily patronising point of view; I suspect she erred only in > failing to make an allowance for the idiocy of some Muslims. It has > also been suggested that the Sudanese government stoked the controversy > in order to draw international attention away from the monumental > tragedy in Darfur. There may be some truth in that, but there’s > probably more logic in sheeting home the blame to sheer dogmatic > blockheadedness. > > An example of considerably more egregious judicial malice has, > meanwhile, surfaced in Saudi Arabia, where a victim of gang rape has > been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison. The supposed > logic behind this punishment illustrates the extent to which the > kingdom operates in a different time zone from much of the world - in > terms of centuries rather than hours. > > The unnamed, recently married 19-year-old, who has been dubbed the > Qatif girl in a reference to her mainly Shia hometown, apparently > wished to retrieve a photograph of herself from a former male > acquaintance before she moved in with her husband, so she arranged a > meeting with the young man. While the two of them were in a car, they > were accosted by a couple of men armed with knives, who took them to an > isolated area. The young woman was violated 14 times by seven men, > three of whom also raped her companion. > > When the case came before a Qatif court, the judges sentenced four of > the assailants to terms ranging up to five years for kidnapping, but > also sentenced the Qatif girl and her male friend to 90 lashes each for > the ‘crime’ of being in each other’s company. Her lawyer, a human > rights advocate by the name of Abdul-Rehman al-Lahem, filed an appeal > and also brought the case to the notice of the media. He was > consequently stripped of his licence, and his client’s sentence was > more than doubled to 200 lashes plus six months in prison. > > There are grounds for assuming that officially sanctioned crimes > against humanity along these lines are not exactly a rarity in Saudi > Arabia, although they don’t always attract international attention. > Queried on the subject during his Annapolis trip last week, Prince Saud > al-Faisal commented: “What is outraging about this case is that it is > being used against the Saudi government and its people.” In fact, what > is ‘outraging’ about this case is that the victims of an abominable > crime have been sentenced to humiliating and painful punishments on > utterly frivolous grounds, and that too on the basis of depositions by > their assailants. > > Such instances make it extremely difficult to take Islamic justice > seriously. The Saudi justice ministry has sought to malign the Qatif > girl by saying that she has confessed to having an extramarital affair > - which, apart from probably being untrue, is neither here nor there. > > The only hopeful signs in this context are al-Lahem’s endeavours, > plus the fact that the Qatif girl’s husband has chosen to serve as a > pillar of support instead of divorcing her. What’s more, at least a > couple of Saudi columnists have dared to raise their voices against > their nation’s system of injustice. Much of the West, meanwhile, > continues to court Riyadh as if it were a bastion of sanity and > stability in an otherwise turbulent region. > > Inanities in the name of Islam are not restricted to Sudan and Saudi > Arabia, of course. Pakistan frequently emerges as a venue for all > manner of excesses. Recent examples from a few neighbouring countries, > however, should suffice to bear out this contention. > > In Iran, 27-year-old Dr Zahra Baniyaghoub died while in the custody > of the morality and virtue police after she and her fiancé were > arrested for chatting to each other in a public park. The authorities > claimed she committed suicide, but Baniyaghoub’s family doesn’t > accept this explanation, evidently for very good reasons, and has > engaged the services of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Shirin Ebadi to > press for an inquiry. In India, Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen > continues to be hounded by Muslims for her supposed blasphemy, while in > Turkey Erol Karaaslan, the translator and publisher of Richard > Dawkins’ atheist treatise The God Delusion faces charges of inciting > religious hatred. > > Karaaslan is about as guilty as Gillian Gibbons. It should be clear > to even the meanest intelligence that the dimwits engaged in turning > molehills into mountains are doing a monumental disservice to the faith > they purport to uphold. > > The writer is a journalist based in Sydney. > > mahir.worldview at gmail.com > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From hpp at vsnl.com Sun Dec 9 16:21:01 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (hpp at vsnl.com) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:51:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Article on Calcutta riots Message-ID: Dear Friends I am copying below Ruchir Joshi's article in today's Telegraph (Calcutta) on Ripon Street and the riots of 21 November 2007. Best V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com ......................... ONCE UPON A TIME IN RIPON Ruchir Joshi takes a walk through Ripon Street - the scene of the recent riots over Taslima Nasreen - and finds it a fascinating grid of avarice, opportunism and vibrancy. The sms buzzes my phone in Madras and it’s as terse as phone texts get. There’s only one word that can be shortened – `called’ – but the sender hasn’t bothered: `Riots in Cal. Army called out.’ In the Self-Immolation capital of the world, everything around me is calm. It’s late afternoon and children are being picked up from the school across the lane; a waiting driver is playing Tam-pop in his Indica, one foot lodged in the `v’ of his half-open door; the rice-powder kolams outside the gates of the colony are already well-smudged. It feels like I am in another country, receiving news from a far-away home I no longer recognise. The house where I am has no TV and, at first, I can’t quite figure out who has rioted. Could it be the film-makers? Surely not. Could they have dropped Ganguly for the Eden Test? No chance. Through a patchwork of sms-es and net news, I begin to get the picture, or so I think. `Muslims’ were rioting. The names cropping up were Park Circus, 4-number Bridge, Lower Circular and Ripon Street. Obviously, the issues were Nandigram and Rizwanul, or a cocktail of the two, but what exactly had triggered it off? It takes a couple of hours for the answer to crystallise and when it comes, it is bizarre: `Taslima protest turns violent. Police confronts 10,000-strong mob before calling in Army. Epicentre: Ripon Street.’ As Taslima Nasreen makes her way west, I come back east. If I expect to see Calcutta transformed after the protests of early November or the riots later in the month, I am disappointed: everything is normal, nice early winter atmosphere, people and pollution both going about their usual business. *** The whole area between Park Street and Dharmatalla has always fascinated me, even more so since I began to delve into Calcutta’s years of the Second World War. There has long been a mix of Anglo-Indian and Muslim populations here, the former thinning gradually as the latter grew, after Independence. This is where the local band musicians and catering industry people lived, this is where the sex-industry that catered to shaheb-ish tastes was based, this is where the Chinese had serious footholds south of Chinatown further to the north; this was also one of the main places where the dream first took root, in the late 1930s and early 40s, of a country called Pakistan and then, briefly and marginally, of a Muslim-majority, united, Republic of Bengal. Growing up in the 70s, the streets and roads with names like Free School, Elliot, Ripon, Royd and Wellesley formed part of a dangerous and fascinating grid for a boy from a middle-class Hindu background such as myself. Then, it seemed as if all the delicious taboos had been herded into this one city within a city: the jazz and pop, the booze, the drugs, the prostitution, the mutton rizalas and the beef kababs. Not daring to venture too close to the professional dames or the drugs, I didn’t actually enter too deeply into this world, but, whenever I made a foray there was never any real sense of threat or danger – the area was merely one exotic part of my city, which happened to be a city full of exotic parts. Now, when I get off at the junction of Ripon Street and Lower Circular Road, there is still the pall of quotidian Calcutta chaos. The taxis and buses are still trying to kill me, the traffic cops are still lazing about like indifferent cows, the grime has returned post the monsoon and it lies on everything as if it owns the place, which it still does. Rather than go straight into Ripon, I cross the road and take a walk through the galis on the other side of Lower Circular. These are typical Calcutta galis, the narrow patch of broken asphalt bordered with gutter water, walls crumbling into the road, irrespective of whether they were put up in 1980 or 1780, aggressive vegetation growing out of every unbelievable nook and cranny as if this is where nature is beginning its fightback to recover the planet from humans. Haji Lane, Mistri Para Lane, Noor Ali Lane, all winding quietly, all looking ready to go back to a sleepy November evening in the 19th century, if not all the way back to the beginning of eternity. There is a relatively fresh-looking notice pasted on a wall, the dirt sitting lightly enough for one to be able to read. `Jobs in the Gulf’, it says, with complicated tables below listing various construction and low-level engineering jobs. In one corner there is a box which lists waiters’ jobs for `Muslims Only’ whic h include `keeping the establishment clean and hygenic’. Lying right below it, torn and scuffed by footprints, is a placard in red Bangla type with a hammer and sickle: `Maintain peace and discipline in the neighbourhood’. Heading back to the main road, the walls develop slogans: thin, dripping, black block letters, scrawled quickly, `Taslima Go Back!’, and again and again, till the guy tries a variation on the chhanda, `Go Back Taslima!’ and then on one side of an open factory gate an almost-haiku: `TASLI GO’, finished on the other gate by an equally elliptical `MA BACK!’ *** When different people explain what happened that day, a few things emerge quite clearly. There was the main anti-Taslima procession on Lower Circular, the supposed `chakka jaam’, there was police presence and there was tension, but apparently not riot-level tension. The party properly started when groups of men came out of these lanes across Lower Circular, one by one the mouths of the galis filling up with small mobs from Taanti Para, Mehdi Bagan and Bedford Lane, these names later becoming thin euphemisms for `easily incitable underclass’, in this case an underclass amply supplied with broken brick and shards of shattered tubelights. There were people in Ripon Street proper as well, breaking bricks on the roof of the Saran Laundry – a low building – and hurling stuff down at the police from above; but mainly the rioters came, as they often do, from `onno para’, from `doosrey muhalley’, from that ever-present, incendiary `elsewhere’. After all the ups and downs it has gone through, Ripon itself is now a street heavy with middle-class homes, businesses and ongoing construction. `Majority belonging to Muslims’, as one local points out, `but not the kind of Muslims who would like a riot.’ At least, not most of them. Talking to people, I hear a repeated theme: an open nexus between local and not-so local politicians and at least two powerful builders vying for street-supremacy in the area, and the varying agendas these figures might have, that would make them welcome the occasional upheaval. As I walk up Ripon street, I see the difference from other parts of Calcutta but also, inescapably, the similarities; in a construction-drunk city, this is yet another street overdosing on rampant concrete, with old, infirm houses being ripped down and new buildings squeezing up through the available space. The garish new apartments, painted with what I call `Gulf Colours’, sit side by side with the older constructions, some of them going back into the early 19th century and maybe even the late 18th. All of these, old, new and in-between, form a curious architectural cross-section of the city’s history. The old beauties have survived the rapid change-overs of the last twenty years, the shifting out of the Anglo-Indians, the height of the goonda era from the mid-80s to the late 90s, and currently, the weighty hand of new avarice. The old buildings have their rotting, time-bombed charm, while the new constructions are prime real estate, close to the centre of a city experienci ng a property boom. But the majority of architecture on Ripon street consists of the deadly, Calcutta, `Nothing-style’ baadis made in the 50s, 60s and 70s, the ones you pass by without ever remembering a single façade or feature, the ones that do not advertise the stories they contain. One of the alleged instigators of the recent riots was arrested from one such building. As the man who is showing me around points out the place, the whole business of Taslima comes up again. `The whole thing had nothing to do with us, with Ripon Street or any of the people living here, Muslims or otherwise,’ says one resident. WHAT DO THEY CARE ABOUT TASLIMA? Mohammad Mustafa, a ramrod-straight tax consultant in his seventies, is even more outspoken: `These Minority Forum people are kicking at the CPM now, but it was this very same Government that gave these people a huge boost earlier. What is this Minority Forum that consists only of Muslims? Where are the Sikhs, Christians and Parsis in this forum? The CPM never questioned this, and now, look – they can’t even keep control in this elaaka so near their headquarters!’ Mustafa’s desk is old, nicked, but spotless. A motorcycle is parked next to it, right inside his office, obviously not safe to leave outside. His voice is quiet but all the more precise for it. `What do these people care about Taslima? She has been here for years, so why do this now? They are not in the least bothered about her.’ Mustafa’s father graduated in Medicine in the same batch as B.C Roy, and the family has lived in this lane off Ripon Street since 1925. Mustafa’s own life spans from the time when the population of the neighbourhood was peaceably split 50-50 between Anglo-Indian and Muslim. What he says gells exactly with the viewpoint of another, much younger man, `B’, who lives nearby. As he says himself, `B’ is both Muslim and CPM cadre. `You go and ask the Anglos who still live in Ripon street and they’ll tell you – the Mosey buggers kicked us out, man! And it’s true. The good Anglos left, mostly. There are still some decent families left, but most of them are the dregs, involved in the same business as the Muslim thugs.’ `B’s take on the riots is clear and makes sense even as I see the Party-line spinning. `Taslima lives in Rawdon Street. Why not go there and protest? What’s the point of burning tyres in Park Circus? It was all planned from before, and the idea was to show the Government what these guys could do, and to let Trinamul know that they still had strength. Panchayat elections are coming next year, after all.’ So, if it was all so pre-planned, if the rioters were brought in from other areas, if it was such a `focussed riot’, how come the police had no idea this it about to happen? `Arre, we who have daily contact with these streets didn’t know, so how could the cops?’ *** When I ask Euphemia, who lives right on Ripon, she says she was completely out of it. `Uss day ko? I had no idea, at first. Then I knew trouble was happening at the end of our street and people were scared for the school children, but I kept away.’ Sheikh Hafizuddin, who has run his tailoring establishment for over thirty years says he went to Badabazar to do his work and came back untouched. Reggie, who says he hasn’t emigrated because `this country won’t let me go’, was specific: `There is no blessed problem between us all living here. But what these mad people who came from outside and did is wrong. The school children got tortured. You have a political problem you keep it in the political area.’ Tanweer describes the kids caught in the schoolbuses and inside the clutch of schools that dot Ripon, children terrified, wanting to get home, the tear-gas stinging their eyes, the Army arriving in the late afternoon. He speaks of how he got some of the children out via the back streets, getting them to their anxious parents waiting outside the `trouble area’. *** Area. Who defines it? How does one define it? What becomes clear is this: There is Ripon Street, cutting east-west across the belly of Calcutta like an acupuncturist’s median. The history and money waver and flicker, from the end facing Taanti Para on Lower Circular Road to the other, where it meets Free School Street at Karnani Mansions and the molluscs of swish restaurants attached to the hulk of that huge old pile. There are the surrounding areas, Wellesley/Rafi Ahmed Kidwai, Park Circus and the sea of tanneries around No. 4 Bridge and Tangra, the CPM’s Father Stalin HQ at Alimuddin Street and the Mother Teresa HQ at Mother House. Here live large numbers of the city's labouring poor as well as two different claimants to the mantle of bringing succour to them. Next, there is the haphazard grid of greed, both within the law and downright unlawful, that spreads its net across the whole city. That invites the playing out of all kinds of irruptions, both choreographed and spontaneous. There is an area called Nandigram, in Midnapur district, that doesn’t show up in this map at all. Neither does the local train line next to which they found the body of Rizwanul Rahman. THE IRE OF THE UNDERCLASS One of the articulate young Party guys gives me an image: `Media always criticises the CPM. They take an issue and stretch it like chewing gum, and people buy it.’ Masticating the strip of logic, one can connect all these diverse areas. Some might be a stretch, but that’s the function of chewing gum – you can make very thin, fragile but tenacious bridges with it: there is a large, frustrated underclass in this seemingly, newly booming megalopolis; this class is now face to face not only with new and naked low-level wealth, but with a clearly communalised Government bureaucracy and police-force; the Muslim sections of this underclass are even more vulnerable because they are prey not only to the establishment but also to unscrupulous mullahs about whom the `socialist’ Government and `secular’ party cadre can do absolutely Sweet Nothing – puny, cretinous clerics with nothing better to do, who are able to hold to ransom the pusillanimous Bengali Hindus who run the Party. Now let’s see if there’s any gum left to stretch and stick to Taslima Nasrin, the offending writer. *** When I ask `B’ and his comrades about Taslima they shrug their shoulders. `Look if someone insults your mother and your father you are bound to react. And this stupid woman has insulted her own mother and father.’ Talking to these men what I get is that they would have had no problem with a `genuine protest’ against Nasrin, it’s the manipulated nature of the riots, the not-so-hidden agenda behind them that they find objectionable. I bring in M.F Husain and Rushdie, and their reaction is the same – they shouldn’t have insulted anyone’s religion. I argue that people can insult religions or someone’s mother and father, and others can insult back, but surely no one has a right to kill or demand death on that basis. `H’ a young intellectual turns to me, `Listen, you and I can argue about this and we can even see each other’s point of view. I can agree that no one should be killed for this, but the crowd isn’t going to stop and take this democratically. The crowd will always react, and the mullahs and politicians use this.’ `And what do you do to counter the mullahs?’ I ask. `We do what we can, but there are limits because they know we are connected to the Party. Ultimately the mullah can turn to me and say “you are an atheist! Why should we listen to you?” bas, baat vahi khatam.’ In this ground reality, things play quite differently from the views of `liberal’`antels’ like me. When I bring up Rizwanul, I am told: `Look, the second part of what that Todi did was wrong, but the first part was understandable –no father is going to just sit there and give up his precious daughter. He has brought her up, so it becomes his right to try and stop her from a wrong marriage. So he had a right to try his best. That first part was fine, the second part was wrong, the boy should not have been killed.’ The whole business of the `wrong marriage’ comes up again when I talk to a couple of Anglo-Indians still living on the street. `That’s the problem,’ one tells me, `our people married others, you know, like, married outside our community. That’s when the problems started, when the inter-marriages began, and when these goondas began to barge into our parties wanting free drinks.’ Adrian Newbigging remembers a Ripon-time before the problems. `We are Anglos you know, so we are always ready for a party. So you got four people, or you got twenty, and you got together at someone’s house and you played your music. We’d all sing and jam, or play records and people would jive. Like all the old stuff, Tom Jones and Englebert, and then there was the Pussycats and Abba and all.’ This was the time of the Sunday `Fashion Parade’ at the 8.30am mass at St Mary’s church, where the girls would dress to the hilt and the boys would gather to look; of the Zoo Club which pulled in musicians, big and unknown, to jam together; of the time when the ganja was pure and the beer cheap. `Now the dry stuff has gone –too much garbage mixed into it, and the elbow-bending has gone down a bit too.’ Says another man, wistfully, `at that time we used to smoke like pure KG and the juice was so good, you won’t believe it.’ Whatever Islam was being practiced around Ripon Street, it was practiced peacefully, side by side with the most open sexuality and pleasure the city could provide. Unlike the inward-looking middle-class paras of North and South Calcutta, this was an open, mixed, syncretic, public neighbourhood, and it was a very far cry from the East Pakistan that grew into Bangladesh. *** Just as I suspect I wouldn’t find Ripon Street in the writings of Taslima, I found no trace of Taslima on Ripon Street or its environs, save, that is, for the sad, scrawled slogans in the galis. Those slogans and the riots are serious, but they are also the very worst kind of a bad joke, one that should have nothing to do with Calcutta. Riots triggered by twisted religion should not well up from roads named after heroes of the proletarian struggle such as Hare Krishna Konar Road and Muzzafar Ahmed Street, (as Ripon is now called), but they do. Writers should have the courage of their convictions and they should not agree to rub out pages from their books to keep the remote-controlled crowds at bay, but, sadly, they do. Supposedly Communist governments should not be overseeing the rape and murder of peasants, but, as they have done in the past, they still do. As Hafizuddin tailors his polyester Shah Rukhiya trousers with the `Mohabbat’-style cross-pockets, as Euphemia nurses her sick husband back to health, as the schoolkids flock to Ripon in their multi-coloured uniforms, as Tanweer tends to the big paantha he is saving to gift to someone at Bakr Eid, as Mohammad Mustafa reflects on times gone by, as Reggie shakes his head thinking about the tear-gas, as the uncooked kababs glisten in their marinade waiting for the tawaa, I search for someone here who has read the writings of Taslima Nasrin. It’s a joke. No matter what pages Nasrin now chooses to excise from her long-published books, and no matter who pushes her into this, or from which motive, and no matter who stands by and heaves a sigh of relief, it is these living pages from the beautiful, messy, blasphemous, vibrant book of Calcutta that are in danger of being ripped out forever. From aman.am at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 20:40:14 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 20:40:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The shotgun and the sniper Message-ID: <995a19920712090710i25c3bd2cm95efbefcef714d03@mail.gmail.com> "The time for silver bullets has passed," proclaimed Marc Stewart, "What we need is a Shotgun!" In his bright Bali shirt, Nike sneakers and Investment Banker haircut, Mr Stewart is the firm-handshaking, fist pumping, ever effusive all-American co-founder of Ecosecurities, a firm that specialises in developing and marketing carbon trading projects under the Clean Development Mechanism - CDM - of the Kyoto Protocol. With emission reductions under Kyoto less than a month away, Mr Stewart's firm is looking to extend its market capitalisation to far beyond its existing 40 million USD. The Ecosecurity model functions in the following way - they find and help develop projects in the developing world that is eligible for credit credits under the CDM, and then sell the credits in to firms in EU and across the orld that are looking to meet their Kyoto targets by offsetting excess emissions against carbon credits. Firms like Ecosecurities pushed the carbon market to 30 billion dollars in 2006; and if Annex 1 agrees to further emission cuts (25-40 per cent below 1992 by 2020) the potential size of the market is open to the most optimistic hyperbole. The "Shotgun Approach" suggested by Stewart was his response to the fact the Climate Change is a "reality that needs to be addressed NOW" - and that governments, international bodies and business would have to proceed on a rampage on all possible fronts simultaneously - sort of like the blunt double-barrelled, pump action shotguns freely available back home in America. The Shotgun approach was Mr Stewart's reason for opening up and extending carbon markets to as many sectors as possible - particularly Forestry. If we were to examine the shotgun metaphor in some detail, we find the shotgun is best known for its tremendous stopping power at short-ranges (say 40 per cent reduction in 10 years?), and the fact that on firing, the shot divides up into pellets, making it easy to hit small targets at some distance, allowing even inexperienced marksmen to use it with a fair degree of competency. And Mr Stewart is not the only one holding the shotgun. A week into the climate change conference, there seems to be a very interesting development paradigm emerging that is vaguely reminiscent of the AIDS approach to development. Under the adaptation and mitigation arms of Climate change - it is possible to embark on any number of projects in the guise of saving the planet. While "Saving the Poor" has clearly lost some of lustre on the funding markets, "Saving the Planet" seems to be bringing in some serious money from governments, donor bodies and private enterprise. The fact that climate shall hit everyone in end, and not just the "poor and vulnerable" (though it is routinely stressed that they shall be the worst hit) seems to have motivated some serious thinking. The first week at Bali has largely centred around the "tremendous opportunites presented by Climate Change." Thus you have sessions on "Climate Change and Gender", "Climate Change and Health", "Climate Change and the Millenium Development Goals", "Leadership and Climate Change", and my personal favourite "Climate Change and HIV/AIDS." Fire the Climate Change Shotgun and hit a whole collection of development indices - big ones at short ranges, small ones at longer ranges. The approach might just have some benefits - given the urgency of the problem (and yes, Climate Change is a real, serious, significant problem that has to be dealt with); groups working on thankless, under-funded projects like Malaria, disaster management, and drought relief might finally get the money they require - and all projects need to be "sexed up" to fit into donor spending agenda. What is interesting is the shift one sees from an earlier approach to development - which could be termed the "Sniper Approach" (My metaphor, not Mr Stewart's). The Sniper rifle, is a specialised rifle designed to maximise accuracy over long distances to hit precise targets. Thus, the Sniper Approach could be understood as a metaphor for highly decentralised specific schemes that target specific projects. These were much in vogue in the late nineties and continue to be applied in community level projects - where the approach is custom designed for the community in question and takes on board their specific needs. The Sniper approach was supposed to reduce system leakages, often using information technology and verification apparatus and was favoured by organisations like the World Bank to ensure that benefits of specific schemes were "targeted" (coincidentally a word that development agencies use a lot) at those that needed them the most. The idea was to introduce fiscal discipline in developing economies and ensure that the limited subsidies that were handed out went to the intended recipients. India's TPDS - or Targeted Public Distribution System - could be a useful example of such a scheme. Another one could be the Micro-credit intiatives and SHGs (Self Help Groups), so loved by one and all; but i suppose the fact that SHG's operate on small scales and ranges could call for Pistol/ Handgun Initiatives. One week into the conference, it is hard to tell what approach to take - perhaps one could take all three on board and step out battle-hardened and armed to the teeth. Personally, I find myself sympathetic to cause of the solar powered tazer : renewable, zero-emissions and allegedly non-lethal; always a good approach to saving the world. best a. From zainabbawa at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 22:02:58 2007 From: zainabbawa at yahoo.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 08:32:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Empowering India - Gujarat Electoral Candidates Information Message-ID: <732062.92249.qm@web36105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> www.EmpoweringIndia.org If you are voter in Gujarat, this site will provide you information, which was not easily accessible before, about your candidate in your constituency. We are digitising every the affidavits filed by every candidate in every constituency in Gujarat. You could access information about the candidates assets, liabilities, education status, and instances of criminal charges against them, if any. And this information is available at the click of a button. Information is power. Our objective is to share as much information as possible with the voters in Gujarat, and contribute to building active citizenship. Be informed. Cast your Vote. Strengthen the largest democracy in the world. Celebrate the democratic miracle. Please share this information to all you know in Gujarat. We greatly welcome your comments and criticism. And we will try to learn and improve our system. This is an initiative of Liberty Institute in New Delhi. We hope to expand this process of active citizenship to other states of India. We also have past election information on www.IndianDemocracy.net Zainab Bawa Mumbai www.xanga.com/citybytes ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From oishiksircar at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 23:08:50 2007 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 11:38:50 -0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Marketing Trafficking, Compromising Rights In-Reply-To: <62cba67a0712090935w5982b931ya4f05a5062a5633a@mail.gmail.com> References: <62cba67a0712090935w5982b931ya4f05a5062a5633a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62cba67a0712090938y14f65398i979edbc6f35e1da9@mail.gmail.com> Hi... This article by me was published recently by Women's Feature Service, and is available at http://www.boloji.com/wfs6/wfs1079.htm Here's the complete version... comments welcome... Oishik *Marketing Trafficking, Compromising Rights* * * *By: Oishik Sircar* <#116bff9e8e61bdc2__ftn1>* **** First it was HIV/ AIDS, and now through a pandemic-scale response, a close second in the race for the 'worst things affecting humanity list' is trafficking. From international funding to policy interventions to public media and Bollywood – all are interested in trafficking. What prompts this interest? In June 2007, the U.S. government's Department of State released their 'Trafficking in Persons Report', which placed India on Tier 2 watch list for the fourth year in a row for failing to effectively combat trafficking. India was actually a borderline case because if Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte had his way, India could have very well been listed as a Tier 3 country, meaning worst offender. Condoleezza Rice overruled him and agreed to undertake a special evaluation of India in six months, and then take action. So before the six month period gets over in December 2007, the need to represent India's unfailing commitment to combating trafficking is being carried out on all fronts – and an unprecedented use of public media is being deployed to salvage India's international standing as a state which is committed to end trafficking. As a consequence of this response the community getting a raw deal are sex workers – caught in the quagmire of both trafficking as well as HIV/ AIDS. Anti-trafficking policy and campaigns have always tended to wrongly conflate trafficking and sex work. This understanding progresses on an assumption that if women get trafficked, they are always forced into sex work. This has three major fallouts: one, it invisibilises the many other occupations that trafficked people, especially women, might take up; it denies women the agency that they can exercise to move on their own; and it does not address the violence and abuse women might face in the process of being trafficked. The response is thus, either to criminalize sex work, or to bar women's right to move in the hope of stopping trafficking. While it cannot be denied that many women are trafficked into sex work, anti-trafficking measures seldom privilege the experiences of sex workers, who collectively also combat trafficking, to devise policies. On the other hand, sex workers are also identified as the primary vectors for the spread of HIV/ AIDS. The idea is to stop HIV/AIDS from leaving the 'bodies' of sex workers, and through married male clients finally reaching the good/loyal and chaste wife in the family. This is done through mandatory health check-ups and surveillance instead of creating enabling conditions that would help sex workers protect themselves against contracting the disease from clients who come to them. Wrongly identifying sex workers as a community that is solely responsible for the spread of HIV/AIDS stigmatises them and makes them more vulnerable to the disease. Two recent anti-trafficking campaigns by MTV and the UN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) are complicit in perpetuating this image of the sex worker as the agency-less trafficked woman. The MTV campaign called End Exploitation and Trafficking (EXIT) has made a film called 'Sold'. The film is narrated by Lara Dutta and does not look at prostitution as the only logical end of trafficking, though a majority of the portion is devoted to prostitution and several simulated images of a girl trafficked into prostitution being raped. If the film had stuck to the testimonies of 'victims' it would have been fine, but it becomes problematic because the larger narrative of the film passes value judgments about how demand for paid sex among the youth in India is a major cause for sex trafficking and suggests that only when we stop paying for sex will we be able to combat trafficking, which in effect is an abolitionist stand on sex work. MTV EXIT's website provides a list of anti-trafficking organizations in India, but the work of sex workers' collectives – Self Regulatory Boards (SRBs) of the Durbar Mahila Samanyaya Committee (DMSC), Kolkata and the Mohalla Committees of Veshya Anyay Mukti Parishad (VAMP), Sangli – who have also been combating trafficking and are internationally recognized models for anti-trafficking work – does not find mention. Is it because it is difficult to imagine that sex workers can articulate the right to sex work as strongly as their right against trafficking and exploitation? The UNODC campaign which is called the UN Global Initiative to Fight Human Trafficking (UN-GIFT) has also made a public service film called 'One Life, No Price'. This film's script is similar to MTV's 'Sold', but has not one but several Bollywood stars, including Amitabh Bachhan, urging people to join the fight against trafficking. The cases represented are based on real incidents. While this film also does not singularly focus on sex trafficking the stories of four girls – who were sold into a brothel, duped into joining a massage parlour and forced to work as a bar dancer – are given maximum screen space. The recreation of the brothel is especially problematic: where 'slutty' sex workers are chewing pan accosting clients and the trafficked girl is being tortured by an evil looking 'madam'. This representation constructs brothels as 'hell holes' where women have no agency, denying the reality in the lives sex workers – which are a combination of fear and fun. While brothels are definitely not the best places, recognizing the ways in which women negotiate their stay and work there is necessary, if we are to devise policies for 'rescuing' them. Interestingly, the director of this film, Sunita Krishnan, who runs Prajwala, an anti-trafficking organization in Hyderabad, was quoted in an interview to the development news website InfoChange, saying that since all women are forced into prostitution, they must also be forced out of it. Disturbed by the UNODC campaign – which also stated that India is among the top human trafficking destinations in South Asia, with over 35,000 young girls and women from Bangladesh and Nepal being brought into the country every year – both DMSC and VAMP have responded strongly. In an open letter DMSC alleged that these statistics were merely anecdotal, and that the anti-trafficking strategy of UNODC does not make sex workers stake-holders in the campaign. "Being engaged in anti-trafficking programmes in West Bengal for the last 12 years we know the inner workings/strategies of the traffickers. Without sex workers' participation trafficking cannot be stopped – SRBs are a conclusive example of this. We run 30 SRBs across the state. We can immediately identify a new comer and can ascertain whether she has willing come or has been trafficked. If she is trafficked we send her back home. Before our collective force nobody can retain the girl or the women in sex work. Moreover, we successfully involve the local stakeholders and police and have developed a strong network and under our vigilance a trafficker however well connected, cannot escape," the letter stated. On a lighter note DMSC has wondered whether soulful pleas by Bollywood actors would actually detract traffickers! In a response from VAMP, Meena Seshu has attempted to urge non-sex workers who are doing anti-trafficking work, to pay heed to what sex workers have to say: "Non-sex workers have to forego deep convictions about sex work in order to make conversation with sex workers possible. They will have to accept that the community can actually identify and address violations they face – with or without outside help. History has recorded that generations of outsiders and outside interventions have tried but have failed miserably. Be it the SRB or the VAMP Mohalla Committees, we need to recognize and be encouraging of their smallest successes." Coming back to where it all began: one of the major sources that fuel this tension between sex workers and anti-trafficking work is the US government's policy on HIV/ AIDS and trafficking. Governments in India and the Global South have been required to take cognisance of the 2003 United States Leadership against HIV/AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria Act (Global AIDS Act) and the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorisation Act. The US Global AIDS Act bars the use of federal funds to "promote, support, or advocate the legalisation or practice of prostitution". As a report by the Centre for Health and Gender Equity in the US points out: "Organisations receiving US global HIV/AIDS funding also must adopt specific organisation-wide positions that explicitly oppose prostitution and trafficking. Such funding restrictions force organisations working in public health from Southern countries that heavily rely on US funding to comply with an ideological litmus test that often runs counter to both public health practice and human rights standards." In 2005, when VAMP returned a $12, 000 grant from USAID (the US frontline funding agency), because they did not wish to be bound by such conditionalities, through an organized conspiracy VAMP was accused of engaging in child trafficking. So it doesn't remain a surprise any longer that the MTV EXIT campaign is funded by USAID and US remains the single largest benefactor of the UN. It's a pity that in an attempt to combat trafficking – which indeed has reached alarming proportions – we have ended up marketing it for its perverse popularity, and in effect are trading the rights of sex workers, instead of making them equal stakeholders. ------------------------------ <#116bff9e8e61bdc2__ftnref1>* The author is a Fellow in Reproductive & Sexual Health and Women's Rights at the University of Toronto, Faculty of Law. oishik.sircar at utotonto.ca -- OISHIK SIRCAR Fellow in Reproductive & Sexual Health and Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 From ravig64 at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 23:58:19 2007 From: ravig64 at gmail.com (Ravi Agarwal) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 23:58:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The shotgun and the sniper In-Reply-To: <995a19920712090710i25c3bd2cm95efbefcef714d03@mail.gmail.com> References: <995a19920712090710i25c3bd2cm95efbefcef714d03@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <93C79383-F3AF-45E0-B730-028132E3589C@gmail.com> Hi Aman, Very interesting categorisation and imagary! Do let us know what you thought of the climate conference at bali, since you are obviously there. Especially how India continues to harp the 'poor' line internationally while following a 'poor be damned for now' policy at home. Also good to see a writing on environmental politics on the list! best ravi On Dec 9, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Aman Sethi wrote: "The time for silver bullets has passed," proclaimed Marc Stewart, "What we need is a Shotgun!" In his bright Bali shirt, Nike sneakers and Investment Banker haircut, Mr Stewart is the firm-handshaking, fist pumping, ever effusive all-American co-founder of Ecosecurities, a firm that specialises in developing and marketing carbon trading projects under the Clean Development Mechanism - CDM - of the Kyoto Protocol. With emission reductions under Kyoto less than a month away, Mr Stewart's firm is looking to extend its market capitalisation to far beyond its existing 40 million USD. The Ecosecurity model functions in the following way - they find and help develop projects in the developing world that is eligible for credit credits under the CDM, and then sell the credits in to firms in EU and across the orld that are looking to meet their Kyoto targets by offsetting excess emissions against carbon credits. Firms like Ecosecurities pushed the carbon market to 30 billion dollars in 2006; and if Annex 1 agrees to further emission cuts (25-40 per cent below 1992 by 2020) the potential size of the market is open to the most optimistic hyperbole. The "Shotgun Approach" suggested by Stewart was his response to the fact the Climate Change is a "reality that needs to be addressed NOW" - and that governments, international bodies and business would have to proceed on a rampage on all possible fronts simultaneously - sort of like the blunt double-barrelled, pump action shotguns freely available back home in America. The Shotgun approach was Mr Stewart's reason for opening up and extending carbon markets to as many sectors as possible - particularly Forestry. If we were to examine the shotgun metaphor in some detail, we find the shotgun is best known for its tremendous stopping power at short-ranges (say 40 per cent reduction in 10 years?), and the fact that on firing, the shot divides up into pellets, making it easy to hit small targets at some distance, allowing even inexperienced marksmen to use it with a fair degree of competency. And Mr Stewart is not the only one holding the shotgun. A week into the climate change conference, there seems to be a very interesting development paradigm emerging that is vaguely reminiscent of the AIDS approach to development. Under the adaptation and mitigation arms of Climate change - it is possible to embark on any number of projects in the guise of saving the planet. While "Saving the Poor" has clearly lost some of lustre on the funding markets, "Saving the Planet" seems to be bringing in some serious money from governments, donor bodies and private enterprise. The fact that climate shall hit everyone in end, and not just the "poor and vulnerable" (though it is routinely stressed that they shall be the worst hit) seems to have motivated some serious thinking. The first week at Bali has largely centred around the "tremendous opportunites presented by Climate Change." Thus you have sessions on "Climate Change and Gender", "Climate Change and Health", "Climate Change and the Millenium Development Goals", "Leadership and Climate Change", and my personal favourite "Climate Change and HIV/AIDS." Fire the Climate Change Shotgun and hit a whole collection of development indices - big ones at short ranges, small ones at longer ranges. The approach might just have some benefits - given the urgency of the problem (and yes, Climate Change is a real, serious, significant problem that has to be dealt with); groups working on thankless, under-funded projects like Malaria, disaster management, and drought relief might finally get the money they require - and all projects need to be "sexed up" to fit into donor spending agenda. What is interesting is the shift one sees from an earlier approach to development - which could be termed the "Sniper Approach" (My metaphor, not Mr Stewart's). The Sniper rifle, is a specialised rifle designed to maximise accuracy over long distances to hit precise targets. Thus, the Sniper Approach could be understood as a metaphor for highly decentralised specific schemes that target specific projects. These were much in vogue in the late nineties and continue to be applied in community level projects - where the approach is custom designed for the community in question and takes on board their specific needs. The Sniper approach was supposed to reduce system leakages, often using information technology and verification apparatus and was favoured by organisations like the World Bank to ensure that benefits of specific schemes were "targeted" (coincidentally a word that development agencies use a lot) at those that needed them the most. The idea was to introduce fiscal discipline in developing economies and ensure that the limited subsidies that were handed out went to the intended recipients. India's TPDS - or Targeted Public Distribution System - could be a useful example of such a scheme. Another one could be the Micro-credit intiatives and SHGs (Self Help Groups), so loved by one and all; but i suppose the fact that SHG's operate on small scales and ranges could call for Pistol/ Handgun Initiatives. One week into the conference, it is hard to tell what approach to take - perhaps one could take all three on board and step out battle-hardened and armed to the teeth. Personally, I find myself sympathetic to cause of the solar powered tazer : renewable, zero-emissions and allegedly non-lethal; always a good approach to saving the world. best a. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radiofreealtair at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 02:37:36 2007 From: radiofreealtair at gmail.com (Anand Vivek Taneja) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 16:07:36 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] an interesting archival photo In-Reply-To: <002d01c83a7a$e33dd300$0501a8c0@yousufcc821f44> References: <002d01c83a7a$e33dd300$0501a8c0@yousufcc821f44> Message-ID: <8178da990712091307h5806791etfe389fff417138a4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yousuf, Interestingly, the 'Hindu' category is further subdivided, in this picture, into 'Hindu Striyon ke Liye' and 'Hindu PurushoN ke liye', a diffrentiation of gender which we don't see for 'Mohamadan' and 'General' categories. Anand On Dec 9, 2007 10:33 AM, Yousuf Saeed wrote: > I am attaching an archival photo of the Allahabad railway station > platform dating back to the British period (roughly 1920s) that I found on > an archive on Minnesota university library (Ames) website. Its a photo of a > newly opened "Indian Refreshment Room" at the station - the most striking > thing to notice is the separate rooms or doors for Hindus and Muslims! Some > doors which say Mohammadans or Ahle-Islam (in Urdu), while others say "Hindu > yatrion ke liye" (in Hindi). There's one door for "General" too, I guess for > others. There maybe something for British officers which is not seen here. > If this is one small example, I wonder what other formal divisions may have > existed in those days. And one wonders if such divisions were there in our > society for ever, or were they invented by the British. > Any comments > > Yousuf > > This image comes from: > http://digital.lib.umn.edu/IMAGES/reference/ames/amp00204 > > From tbd.lists at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 12:59:48 2007 From: tbd.lists at gmail.com (Dinesh, Servelots) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:59:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dec 12, 13, 14: Technology, Governance, Citizenship meet, Bangalore In-Reply-To: <4573cd0e0710170225i38b5869fqf7b656dd98024774@mail.gmail.com> References: <4573cd0e0710170225i38b5869fqf7b656dd98024774@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4573cd0e0712092329i6c60fd6dj1c1a6b4e6348dcd1@mail.gmail.com> Technology, Governance and Citizenship 12th, 13th and 14th December, 2007 Indian Institute of Management, Bangalore Technology is central to new modes of governance, and to emerging definitions of citizenship, participation, and progress. As state functions get automated through e-governance, experiences get codified, and paradigms of knowledge production come under the digital eye, the notions of governance and citizenship are changing. This conference explores questions at the intersection of technology and society in contemporary India, bringing together researchers and practitioners from a wide range of technical and social scientific backgrounds. Its aim is not so much to reiterate the conventional definitions of development, technology, transparency, and governance, but to unpack the construction of these terms in a way that allows us to make sense of the new practices of governance, and of contemporary politics, law and citizenship. See the 3 day program and key participants of the workshop. http://janasu.org/tgc Dec 12th, 2007 The first day of the workshop will introduce case studies of projects in India that highlight the technical aspects of e-governance, providing a concrete basis for discussions. Dec 13th, 2007 The second day's presentations will explore the social and epistemological questions emerging out of e-governance architectures and their implementation. Dec 14th, 2007 On the final day of the workshop, speakers will attempt to articulate a broader platform of research into questions about the intersection of technology and society. Registration is now open. Again check out the link: http://janastu.org/tgc From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 15:35:26 2007 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:05:26 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Choking Off The Internet In Bangladesh Message-ID: Dear bloggers, we are asking all net hacktivists to join the campaign against the Crackdown & Monitoring of Internet in Bangladesh Here's what you can do. On your blog, add this image: http://rumiahmed.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/free_internet_bd.gif And link to this story: http://www.e-bangladesh.org/2007/10/03/crackdown-on-internet-users-in-bangladesh/ From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Dec 10 16:12:23 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:12:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindi Blog Writing Workshop Message-ID: <9c06aab30712100242p6fc5bc05rc1f9248c4854bc09@mail.gmail.com> Hindi Blog Writing Workshop Date: 11th December, 2007 Time: 2 to 5 pm Venue: Seminar Room, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi Today blogging has become an important tool of communication. Diverse things from ideas, analysis, critiques and memoirs to travelogues are all being written and shared through blogs. Blogs in Hindi are gradually becoming popular as writing in Hindi on the internet is no more a problem (there is a huge variety of tools to start with). But we still have to go a long way before Hindi blogs become much favoured, the main drawback being lack of knowledge among the public. The Hindi Blog Writing Workshop at Sarai-CSDS is an attempt to involve people who are interested in blogging in the world of Hindi and would like to learn more. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 10 17:05:32 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:35:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWN Dec 5, 2007) In-Reply-To: <344bb495cd1e1e5db560ed540a0ab391@sarai.net> Message-ID: <343828.66881.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha I found the article significant and that is why I posted it. Your spin on it is on a different track from mine. The significance, for me, was not in the contents which are well known and extensively commented upon but in who had written the piece (Mahir Ali - a Muslim) and where it was published (DAWN - a leading Pakistani newspaper). Mahir Ali also cuts through sectarian bias by being equally critical of such incidents in both Saudi Arabia and Iran. Admittedly, Mahir Ali being Sydney based might feel insulated from any backlash but it took courage from DAWN to publish. The well known (or notorious) Ayaan Hirsi Ali is much more strident (blasphemous indeed) in her castigation over the same incidents (and the Taslima Nasreen affair). In an Op-Ed piece in The New York Times she writes: """"""" It is often said that Islam has been “hijacked” by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates. But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done?""""""" She ends her opinion piece with the pointed admonition: """"""When a “moderate” Muslim’s sense of compassion and conscience collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking.""""" I thought Mahir Ali's article was one example of compassion and conscience taking precedence over anything else. I firmly believe that such introspection and correction in a society should be undertaken preferably from within (as by Mahir Ali or Ayaan Hirsi Ali) and 'outsiders' should not interfere. "Outsiders", very often, have a unidimensional understanding depending on who has been most successful in selling a viewpoint. There are enough "social" and "political" examples of such "mess created by outsiders" situations both within India and Internationally. Kshmendra Kaul http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/opinion/07ali.html?ei=5070&en=82ea8ff7f2fff4c9&ex=1197694800&emc=eta1&pagewanted=print Islam’s Silent Moderates By AYAAN HIRSI ALI The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2) IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up in horror. A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim herself to be guilty. Her crime is called “mingling”: when she was abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane. Two hundred lashes are enough to kill a strong man. Women usually receive no more than 30 lashes at a time, which means that for seven weeks the “girl from Qatif,” as she’s usually described in news articles, will dread her next session with Islamic justice. When she is released, her life will certainly never return to normal: already there have been reports that her brother has tried to kill her because her “crime” has tarnished her family’s honor. We also saw Islamic justice in action in Sudan, when a 54-year-old British teacher named Gillian Gibbons was sentenced to 15 days in jail before the government pardoned her this week; she could have faced 40 lashes. When she began a reading project with her class involving a teddy bear, Ms. Gibbons suggested the children choose a name for it. They chose Muhammad; she let them do it. This was deemed to be blasphemy. Then there’s Taslima Nasreen, the 45-year-old Bangladeshi writer who bravely defends women’s rights in the Muslim world. Forced to flee Bangladesh, she has been living in India. But Muslim groups there want her expelled, and one has offered 500,000 rupees for her head. In August she was assaulted by Muslim militants in Hyderabad, and in recent weeks she has had to leave Calcutta and then Rajasthan. Taslima Nasreen’s visa expires next year, and she fears she will not be allowed to live in India again. It is often said that Islam has been “hijacked” by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates. But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done? Usually, Muslim groups like the Organization of the Islamic Conference are quick to defend any affront to the image of Islam. The organization, which represents 57 Muslim states, sent four ambassadors to the leader of my political party in the Netherlands asking him to expel me from Parliament after I gave a newspaper interview in 2003 noting that by Western standards some of the Prophet Muhammad’s behavior would be unconscionable. A few years later, Muslim ambassadors to Denmark protested the cartoons of Muhammad and demanded that their perpetrators be prosecuted. But while the incidents in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and India have done more to damage the image of Islamic justice than a dozen cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, the organizations that lined up to protest the hideous Danish offense to Islam are quiet now. I wish there were more Islamic moderates. For example, I would welcome some guidance from that famous Muslim theologian of moderation, Tariq Ramadan. But when there is true suffering, real cruelty in the name of Islam, we hear, first, denial from all these organizations that are so concerned about Islam’s image. We hear that violence is not in the Koran, that Islam means peace, that this is a hijacking by extremists and a smear campaign and so on. But the evidence mounts up. Islamic justice is a proud institution, one to which more than a billion people subscribe, at least in theory, and in the heart of the Islamic world it is the law of the land. But take a look at the verse above: more compelling even than the order to flog adulterers is the command that the believer show no compassion. It is this order to choose Allah above his sense of conscience and compassion that imprisons the Muslim in a mindset that is archaic and extreme. If moderate Muslims believe there should be no compassion shown to the girl from Qatif, then what exactly makes them so moderate? When a “moderate” Muslim’s sense of compassion and conscience collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of “Infidel.” shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Kshemendra, Thank you for this forward. Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan are indeed sad spectacles of the depths to which theocracies and dictatorships will descend. The recent sad spectacle of a kindergarten teacher having to go to prison because of the teddy bear episode in Sudan indicates the moral bankruptcy of islamist regimes. Incidentally, Indian public and private sector companies, especially in the Petro Chemicals sector are a big player in Sudan, even though the Sudanese state is implicated in gross abuses, especially in the Darfur region. I think that a concerted effort to expose the level of official and corporate Indian backing for corrupt Islamist regimes such as those that rule in Sudan would be timely. I think that the extent of influence that the Saudi regime has purchased in India (in cold hard cash) also needs to be thought about. I am sure that if tomorrow an Indian university decided to name its library after George Bush there would (rightly) be a furore, and yet, I was dismayed a few months ago to discover, that Jamia Millia Islamia (a university where I studied) had decided to name its library after the corrupt Saudi Monarch King Abdullah, who presides over the most sexist regime on earth. Every self respecting woman student of Jamia Millia Islamia should could consider herself personally insulted whenever she has to enter this library building. It is sad that no Indian newspaper or television channel has ever thought it necessary to send journalists to probe the extent to which the Indian state provides aid and succor to such brutal regimes and their clients, be they in Burma or in Sudan. regards Shuddha On 7:25 pm 12/08/07 Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Common sense under attack > By Mahir Ali > > http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mahir/arc-mahir.htm > > > WHEN she arrived in Khartoum four months ago, Gillian Gibbons > couldn’t possibly have had any inkling that she’d be headed back to > England some four months later, following a stint in prison. > > In a statement issued last Saturday, the incarcerated 54-year-old > Liverpudlian said she wasn’t keen to leave Sudan and would much rather > return to work. “The Sudanese people in general have been pleasant and > very generous,’’ she noted, “and I’ve had nothing but good > experiences during my four months here.” > > What makes the level of equanimity and goodwill remarkable is that > the previous day, following Friday prayers, there were mobs baying for > her blood, demanding that the 15-day prison sentence handed down by a > Khartoum court be upgraded to death by a firing squad. So, what exactly > did Gibbons do to inspire such demands for vengeance? > > Well, a month into her stint as a teacher at the Unity School, where > she was in charge of seven-year-olds, she came up with a device for > engaging the kids’ interest in one of the designated topics: bears. > One of the children brought her teddy bear to school and her classmates > were assigned the task of taking the teddy home, one by one, and > writing about their experiences. > > Before the project got underway, Gibbons asked the kids to choose a > name for the cuddly toy. There were various suggestions, including > Abdullah and Hassan. A little boy called Mohammad put forward his own > name for consideration. The teacher arranged a class vote and Mohammad > won hands down. She accepted the democratic verdict. Reasonably enough, > the idea that anyone would find this objectionable appears not to have > so much as crossed her mind. Two months later, police arrived at the > Unity compound to arrest Gibbons for insulting Islam. The school’s > director, Robert Boulos, was told that some parents had complained to > the ministry of education. It subsequently turned out that the sole > complainant was in fact an office assistant at the school, who served > as the main witness for the prosecution - or, to be more precise, > persecution. > > The verdict of 15 days in prison followed by deportation occasioned > sighs of relief, given that it could have been worse: six months in > prison and 40 lashes. At the weekend, two Muslim British peers were > engaged in negotiations with the Sudanese authorities in Khartoum, and > they were expected to fly back to London with Gibbons after obtaining a > presidential pardon. That’s all very well, but the point remains that > the only insult in this case - an insult to common sense, if not to > Islam - came from those who pursued a vendetta on patently absurd > grounds. It has been argued that Gibbons erred inadvertently, that as a > novice in Sudan she was unaware of cultural sensitivities. That’s an > unnecessarily patronising point of view; I suspect she erred only in > failing to make an allowance for the idiocy of some Muslims. It has > also been suggested that the Sudanese government stoked the controversy > in order to draw international attention away from the monumental > tragedy in Darfur. There may be some truth in that, but there’s > probably more logic in sheeting home the blame to sheer dogmatic > blockheadedness. > > An example of considerably more egregious judicial malice has, > meanwhile, surfaced in Saudi Arabia, where a victim of gang rape has > been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison. The supposed > logic behind this punishment illustrates the extent to which the > kingdom operates in a different time zone from much of the world - in > terms of centuries rather than hours. > > The unnamed, recently married 19-year-old, who has been dubbed the > Qatif girl in a reference to her mainly Shia hometown, apparently > wished to retrieve a photograph of herself from a former male > acquaintance before she moved in with her husband, so she arranged a > meeting with the young man. While the two of them were in a car, they > were accosted by a couple of men armed with knives, who took them to an > isolated area. The young woman was violated 14 times by seven men, > three of whom also raped her companion. > > When the case came before a Qatif court, the judges sentenced four of > the assailants to terms ranging up to five years for kidnapping, but > also sentenced the Qatif girl and her male friend to 90 lashes each for > the ‘crime’ of being in each other’s company. Her lawyer, a human > rights advocate by the name of Abdul-Rehman al-Lahem, filed an appeal > and also brought the case to the notice of the media. He was > consequently stripped of his licence, and his client’s sentence was > more than doubled to 200 lashes plus six months in prison. > > There are grounds for assuming that officially sanctioned crimes > against humanity along these lines are not exactly a rarity in Saudi > Arabia, although they don’t always attract international attention. > Queried on the subject during his Annapolis trip last week, Prince Saud > al-Faisal commented: “What is outraging about this case is that it is > being used against the Saudi government and its people.” In fact, what > is ‘outraging’ about this case is that the victims of an abominable > crime have been sentenced to humiliating and painful punishments on > utterly frivolous grounds, and that too on the basis of depositions by > their assailants. > > Such instances make it extremely difficult to take Islamic justice > seriously. The Saudi justice ministry has sought to malign the Qatif > girl by saying that she has confessed to having an extramarital affair > - which, apart from probably being untrue, is neither here nor there. > > The only hopeful signs in this context are al-Lahem’s endeavours, > plus the fact that the Qatif girl’s husband has chosen to serve as a > pillar of support instead of divorcing her. What’s more, at least a > couple of Saudi columnists have dared to raise their voices against > their nation’s system of injustice. Much of the West, meanwhile, > continues to court Riyadh as if it were a bastion of sanity and > stability in an otherwise turbulent region. > > Inanities in the name of Islam are not restricted to Sudan and Saudi > Arabia, of course. Pakistan frequently emerges as a venue for all > manner of excesses. Recent examples from a few neighbouring countries, > however, should suffice to bear out this contention. > > In Iran, 27-year-old Dr Zahra Baniyaghoub died while in the custody > of the morality and virtue police after she and her fiancé were > arrested for chatting to each other in a public park. The authorities > claimed she committed suicide, but Baniyaghoub’s family doesn’t > accept this explanation, evidently for very good reasons, and has > engaged the services of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Shirin Ebadi to > press for an inquiry. In India, Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen > continues to be hounded by Muslims for her supposed blasphemy, while in > Turkey Erol Karaaslan, the translator and publisher of Richard > Dawkins’ atheist treatise The God Delusion faces charges of inciting > religious hatred. > > Karaaslan is about as guilty as Gillian Gibbons. It should be clear > to even the meanest intelligence that the dimwits engaged in turning > molehills into mountains are doing a monumental disservice to the faith > they purport to uphold. > > The writer is a journalist based in Sydney. > > mahir.worldview at gmail.com > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 23:45:15 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 23:45:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Hazrat Ali's letter on inclusive governance In-Reply-To: <4d47f9660712090733u6b5ddfdl5221b1ed3a606a7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4d47f9660712090733u6b5ddfdl5221b1ed3a606a7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70712101015u12e737bfhd5daec16767bb643@mail.gmail.com> -------- http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/hazrat-alis-letter-on-inclusive-governance/ -- www.razarumi.com http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/yourgallery/artist_profile//37094.html ' -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 23:46:02 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 23:46:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Hazrat Ali's letter on inclusive governance In-Reply-To: <4d47f9660712090733u6b5ddfdl5221b1ed3a606a7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4d47f9660712090733u6b5ddfdl5221b1ed3a606a7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70712101016w7354ac33y29f4029e1490e0b3@mail.gmail.com> -------- http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/hazrat-alis-letter-on-inclusive-governance/ -- www.razarumi.com http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/yourgallery/artist_profile//37094.html ' -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From theunderscoredhood at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 00:49:15 2007 From: theunderscoredhood at gmail.com (theunderscoredhood at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:19:15 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Identify Yourself Gujarat! Message-ID: <00163646c7740440f378d15250127e96@google.com> Identify Yourself Gujarat!: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dd8kpvmr_11cp7gc3hg --- Note: Please circulate widely, especially in Gujarat. From padmalatha.ravi at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 11:29:28 2007 From: padmalatha.ravi at gmail.com (Padmalatha Ravi) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:29:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] New online Magazine for women Message-ID: Hi, This is the beta version of the online magazine for women created by women http://justfemme.in/ It is meant to be a space to discuss all issues related to women. The authors are largely non journalists from all walks of life. The idea is to see if we can bring the issues to a wider audience. We are also attempting to break away from the usual Women's magazine template of beauty, cookery and relationship guidance. The site is yet to go the full length. We hope to develop the contents and style as we go. Regards -- Padma To unpathed waters, undreamed shores. From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 12:20:50 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:20:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The shotgun and the sniper In-Reply-To: <93C79383-F3AF-45E0-B730-028132E3589C@gmail.com> References: <995a19920712090710i25c3bd2cm95efbefcef714d03@mail.gmail.com> <93C79383-F3AF-45E0-B730-028132E3589C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920712102250n361f64f4m8d534fdada5aed3f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aman, You forgot to report on 'Divorce and Global Warming' so I thought that I shall fill in the lacuna. However, "Climate Change and HIV/AIDS", as you nominated, still retains the top spot as the most grave topic in this genre - never have two most serious issues been so carefully combined. See links for full report. Most Warmly, Vishal http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2983879.ece From The Sunday Times December 2, 2007 Planet feels heat of divorce Roger Waite UNHAPPY couples used to stick together for the sake of the kids. Now they can make the best of a bad marriage in the name of being environmentally friendly. Scientists have quantified for the first time the extent to which divorce damages the environment. The researchers found that the combined use of electricity across the two new households created rose 53% while water use was up by 42% http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,23636,22860297-31037,00.html Save your marriage, and the environment >From correspondents in Washington December 03, 2007 11:46am Article from: Reuters *INCREASING incidences of divorce around the world have a negative impact on the environment, leading to a less efficient use of energy and resources and bigger expenditures on utilities, a new study says.* http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59121 *Divorce* causes global warming? ------------------------------ Posted: December 10, 2007 1:00 a.m. Eastern As the thousands of attendees at the global warming conference in Bali did their part to create a self-fulfilling prophesy type situation by pumping almost 50,000 tons of carbon dioxideinto the atmosphere to get to and from the meeting, we found out that there is yet another item to add to the "things that cause global warming" laundry list (a list that includes "doing your laundry"): Divorce. Below are a few details from ABC Newsabout a Michigan State University study on how divorce contributes to global warming: Per person, divorced households spent more per month for electricity compared with a married household, as multiple people can be watching the same television, listening to the same radio, cooking on the same stove and eating under the same lights. That means some $6.9 billion in extra utility costs per year, Liu calculated, plus an added $3.6 billion for water, in addition to other costs such as land use. You and I have been being beaten over the head for destroying the ozonewith our gas-powered leaf blowers, SUVs and aerosol hairspray when the whole time it has been equally the fault of Liz Taylor and Larry King. On 12/9/07, Ravi Agarwal wrote: > > Hi Aman, > > Very interesting categorisation and imagary! Do let us know what you > thought of the climate conference at bali, since you are obviously > there. Especially how India continues to harp the 'poor' line > internationally while following a 'poor be damned for now' policy at > home. Also good to see a writing on environmental politics on the list! > > best > ravi > > > On Dec 9, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Aman Sethi wrote: > > "The time for silver bullets has passed," proclaimed Marc Stewart, > "What we need is a Shotgun!" In his bright Bali shirt, Nike sneakers > and Investment Banker haircut, Mr Stewart is the firm-handshaking, > fist pumping, ever effusive all-American co-founder of Ecosecurities, > a firm that specialises in developing and marketing carbon trading > projects under the Clean Development Mechanism - CDM - of the Kyoto > Protocol. With emission reductions under Kyoto less than a month away, > Mr Stewart's firm is looking to extend its market capitalisation to > far beyond its existing 40 million USD. The Ecosecurity model > functions in the following way - they find and help develop projects > in the developing world that is eligible for credit credits under the > CDM, and then sell the credits in to firms in EU and across the orld > that are looking to meet their Kyoto targets by offsetting excess > emissions against carbon credits. Firms like Ecosecurities pushed the > carbon market to 30 billion dollars in 2006; and if Annex 1 agrees to > further emission cuts (25-40 per cent below 1992 by 2020) the > potential size of the market is open to the most optimistic hyperbole. > > The "Shotgun Approach" suggested by Stewart was his response to the > fact the Climate Change is a "reality that needs to be addressed NOW" > - and that governments, international bodies and business would have > to proceed on a rampage on all possible fronts simultaneously - sort > of like the blunt double-barrelled, pump action shotguns freely > available back home in America. The Shotgun approach was Mr Stewart's > reason for opening up and extending carbon markets to as many sectors > as possible - particularly Forestry. > > If we were to examine the shotgun metaphor in some detail, we find the > shotgun is best known for its tremendous stopping power at > short-ranges (say 40 per cent reduction in 10 years?), and the fact > that on firing, the shot divides up into pellets, making it easy to > hit small targets at some distance, allowing even inexperienced > marksmen to use it with a fair degree of competency. And Mr Stewart is > not the only one holding the shotgun. A week into the climate change > conference, there seems to be a very interesting development paradigm > emerging that is vaguely reminiscent of the AIDS approach to > development. Under the adaptation and mitigation arms of Climate > change - it is possible to embark on any number of projects in the > guise of saving the planet. While "Saving the Poor" has clearly lost > some of lustre on the funding markets, "Saving the Planet" seems to be > bringing in some serious money from governments, donor bodies and > private enterprise. The fact that climate shall hit everyone in end, > and not just the "poor and vulnerable" (though it is routinely > stressed that they shall be the worst hit) seems to have motivated > some serious thinking. The first week at Bali has largely centred > around the "tremendous opportunites presented by Climate Change." Thus > you have sessions on "Climate Change and Gender", "Climate Change and > Health", "Climate Change and the Millenium Development Goals", > "Leadership and Climate Change", and my personal favourite "Climate > Change and HIV/AIDS." Fire the Climate Change Shotgun and hit a whole > collection of development indices - big ones at short ranges, small > ones at longer ranges. The approach might just have some benefits - > given the urgency of the problem (and yes, Climate Change is a real, > serious, significant problem that has to be dealt with); groups > working on thankless, under-funded projects like Malaria, disaster > management, and drought relief might finally get the money they > require - and all projects need to be "sexed up" to fit into donor > spending agenda. > > What is interesting is the shift one sees from an earlier approach to > development - which could be termed the "Sniper Approach" (My > metaphor, not Mr Stewart's). The Sniper rifle, is a specialised rifle > designed to maximise accuracy over long distances to hit precise > targets. Thus, the Sniper Approach could be understood as a metaphor > for highly decentralised specific schemes that target specific > projects. These were much in vogue in the late nineties and continue > to be applied in community level projects - where the approach is > custom designed for the community in question and takes on board their > specific needs. The Sniper approach was supposed to reduce system > leakages, often using information technology and verification > apparatus and was favoured by organisations like the World Bank to > ensure that benefits of specific schemes were "targeted" > (coincidentally a word that development agencies use a lot) at those > that needed them the most. The idea was to introduce fiscal discipline > in developing economies and ensure that the limited subsidies that > were handed out went to the intended recipients. India's TPDS - or > Targeted Public Distribution System - could be a useful example of > such a scheme. Another one could be the Micro-credit intiatives and > SHGs (Self Help Groups), so loved by one and all; but i suppose the > fact that SHG's operate on small scales and ranges could call for > Pistol/ Handgun Initiatives. > > One week into the conference, it is hard to tell what approach to take > - perhaps one could take all three on board and step out > battle-hardened and armed to the teeth. Personally, I find myself > sympathetic to cause of the solar powered tazer : renewable, > zero-emissions and allegedly non-lethal; always a good approach to > saving the world. > > best > a. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aman.am at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 12:59:49 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:59:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The shotgun and the sniper In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920712102250n361f64f4m8d534fdada5aed3f@mail.gmail.com> References: <995a19920712090710i25c3bd2cm95efbefcef714d03@mail.gmail.com> <93C79383-F3AF-45E0-B730-028132E3589C@gmail.com> <31d5ea920712102250n361f64f4m8d534fdada5aed3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <995a19920712102329n7c7d5addka3878781bf9c50ae@mail.gmail.com> Dear Ravi and Vishal, What has struck me now (though it should have earlier) is the fact that a big worry and legitimate worry among funded organisations and programmes is the worry that donors might suddenly shift funding form one grave problem to a graver sexier one. So often, issues might not be linked to Climate change to attract more funding - but maybe to protect existing projects that run the risk of being abruptly terminated just because something else caught the fancy of the donor. Which gives us something new to think about. best a. From hpp at vsnl.com Tue Dec 11 13:11:53 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:11:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] article on CPM culture Message-ID: <009301c83bd7$6e92c8e0$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Dear Friends I am copying below an article on CPI(M) culture that appears in today's Hindustan Times, by Ruchir Joshi. Best V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com ................ Lull salaam CPI(M) Bengal isn't like BJP Gujarat. Its rule has been far more exhaustively destructive, writes Ruchir Joshi. Lull salaam The other day Prakash Karat came to Calcutta and fired off a salvo in defence of his beleaguered comrades of the West Bengal CPI(M). Standing next to the Chief Minister, Karat took a swing at locals critical of his party and the state government: "Some people, including a section of intellectuals, said what is happening in Bengal is similar to what is happening in Gujarat. They have compared Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee to Narendra Modi and described both as fascists." These intellectuals, according to Karat, "are the enemy of the society and the country." I'm always hesitant to climb on to any bandwagon, and I've always had a Grouchovian allergy to all the various clubs of Bengali and Calcutta intellectuals. But in this instance I find myself running after the crowded bus marked 'Enemies of the Society'. If there are no seats on this jam-packed bus, I'm willing to stand, I'm willing to hang out from a door, risking life and limb like a proper Calcuttan, my fingers curled desperately around the dhoti, shirt-end or jhola of the nearest securely fastened buddhijibi. And as I cling on, let me shout out loud and clear so that there is no room for misunderstanding: the CPI(M) ruling Bengal are fascists. Okay, no. It's not fair to compare a thinking, erudite, witty man such as Buddha babu to Modi. Narendra Kasai oversaw the planning and execution of his 'pogramme'. He most likely gave instructions to his party goons to go and kill fellow Gujaratis. Buddha babu did no such thing. He never had any control of his cadres in the first place. He sat there at the centre of the bhadralok tier of the party from March to November, leafing through his books of prose and poetry while his goons let loose murder and rape on the people of Nandigram. In Gujarat, Modi played a blood-drenched 'one-day game' against his own people and the whole thing was over in a couple of months. In West Bengal, the CPI(M) has been playing a Test match of the old, limitless variety. They have spent the best part of 30 years eroding values, principles, justice, all solely for the greater glory of the party and its leaders. The Sangh parivar's modus operandi in Gujarat is quite different from the CPI(M)'s in Bengal and Calcutta - the organised, cold-blooded, clamp, grip and brutality of the party boys more closely resembles that of the Shiv Sena in Maharashtra and Bombay. In fact, you could argue that the Thackeray Thugs took the model from the CPI(M) across the 80s and early 90s, and that the Sena then tried to improve upon the original but failed, at least in terms of repeated election slam-dunks. For anybody involved in observing and documenting culture in West Bengal, the writing has been on the wall for as long as about two decades, and quite unmistakably from December 1992 onwards. The Left Front honeymoon that began in 1977 was long, unnaturally stretched by the return of Indira Gandhi and the resurgent fascism of the Congress and their death-bhangra with the Khalistanis; given ballast by the horror of the communal riots in Gujarat across the 80s; given flattering contrast by recurring incidents such as the massacre of working class Muslims by the Provincial Armed Constabulary in Meerut. But, as the rest of the country burned, as Kashmir became a suppurating mess, as Bofors cannoned into our consciousness followed by the after-blast of Mandal followed by the cancerous radiation of Hindutva, what the CPI(M) was doing in Bengal was quietly following a one-point agenda: making sure that no other satrap came within sniffing distance of political power for a generation. This was managed at a criminally huge cost - to cultures, both traditional and contemporary; to society, both rural and urban; and to any genuine braking system of conscience, across the state, class and communities. It is not a coincidence that there has come no great cinema out of Bengal since the CPI(M) took over: there was no money, no space for cinema, forget of dissent but even of quiet truth-telling of the kind Satyajit Ray strived for. It is no coincidence that the once vibrant Bangla theatre has shrivelled; nor that so many rural crafts traditions have died or face imminent extinction; nor that several rural performative traditions have met the same or worse fate as the ones in Rajasthan and Gujarat. If an art form didn't fit with the crude propagandist 'progressive aesthetic' of the Left, it wasn't going to be supported. If the tradition or innovation was subversive in any way, it had to be uprooted or starved of water till it died or mutated. Some of this was conscious, some of it just came from a cretinous disregard for the fine, fragile weave of memory and grace. Looking back, a Modi, a Thackeray, an Ayatollah or a Maoist Naxaliban couldn't have done a better job of burning down potentially rich rainforests of creative endeavour. In the communists' West Bengal of the 80s and 90s, Art, surreptitiously, became a Class Enemy. This was because real art is about disagreement, about holding up an accurate (though not necessarily realist) mirror, about taking risks and, in turn, about enticing people to think outside the box. The CPI(M) could not afford that. In 1977, the Left Front inherited a culturally damaged Bengal. Instead of working to resuscitate that culture, they raped it. It is from this violation that come the subsequent strippings and rapes of Birati and Bantola, and now of Nandigram. It all became, as it too often does, about the money that brings power and about the power that brings money. The people of the state, their multifarious needs, the principles upon which those needs could be met, all went out of the equation years ago. The worst elements, the jihadis and Hindutvats, were quietly coddled: "Within your community, you can do what you like," they were told, "build revanchist madrasas, fund the VHP, capture real estate, whatever. Just make sure you support us, vote for us, keep our coffers lined, we who give you this space, this private playground." And now, to each side this government throws scraps: to the millionaires they give the situation that throws up the body of Rizwanur Rahman; to the Muslim underclass they will now gift a missing person, a Taslima-shaped hole. In the meantime, we, the enemies of country and society, are expected not to point out the huge nexus between powerful people in the party and industrialists. We are expected to give the 'Lal Salaam' to anti-American rhetoric; we are expected to see Nandigram as a 'natural reaction'; we must now say that the rioting mobs of November 21, even though manipulated by the Opposition, had a genuine grievance. Oh, and yes, we have to accept that if we call both CPI(M) Bengal and BJP Gujarat fascist, we don't really understand the meaning of fascism. Ruchir Joshi is a writer and film-maker. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 14:58:20 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:28:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Hazrat Ali's letter on inclusive governance In-Reply-To: <47e122a70712101016w7354ac33y29f4029e1490e0b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <647843.39362.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Ali, son-in-law of Mohammed and the 4th Khalifa after Mohammed's death was one of Mohammed's finest Sahabas (companions). Ali is recorded as a fearless warrior and at the same time, during his lifetime at least, perhaps the most credible and respected voice on Islamic Jurisprudence. He functioned as the Chief Judge during the reign of Omar (2nd Khalifa). Many Sufi orders consider Ali as the First Sufi. Some of course credit Mohammed himself with that title. The quoted extracts are from a letter found in Nahajul Balagha which is a collection of Ali's Letters and Sermons. The full letter can be accessed at: http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/letter53.htm#letter53 Ali is also held responsible (by many) for creation of the Shia-Sunni divide amongst Muslims. He certainly is the font of and the central character in that continuing epic. Nahajul Balagha provides great insights into some of the foundations that led to the creation of the Shia and Sunni sects (albeit from the Shia point of view). The letters from Ali to Mu'awiya are especially interesting. Nahajul Balagha can be accessed at: http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/index.htm Kshmendra Kaul inder salim wrote: -------- http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/hazrat-alis-letter-on-inclusive-governance/ -- www.razarumi.com http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/yourgallery/artist_profile//37094.html ' -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From mrsg at vsnl.com Tue Dec 11 15:14:14 2007 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:14:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWNDec5, 2007) References: <343828.66881.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002301c83bda$65d3ae60$0201a8c0@MRAY> Muslim moderates! Why blame them? Where are the hordes of progressives, leftists, seculars, civil society wallas, 'buddhijibis', foreign funded NGOs of Kolkata. None came on the street to protest the expulsion of Taslima Nasrin and the vandalism by the muslim fundamentalists. Some has only given lip service in TV shows, some sociological description of Ripon street etc. etc.. No procession, no candle lighting - nothing this time. And a bunch of them are supporting the government in the name of 'governance'. After conquering Calcutta from the British for a brief period in 1756 Siraj ud Doulla, the last muslim ruler of Bengal, renamed it as 'Ali Nagar'. I suggest Calcutta renamed Kolkata should now again be called 'Ali Nagar". And the 'jimmis' there are then free to carry out their cultural-intellectual-academic exercises with permission from Imam of Tipu Sultan Mosque of Ali Nagar. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kshmendra Kaul" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWN Dec5,2007) > Dear Shuddha > > I found the article significant and that is why I posted it. Your spin on > it is on a different track from mine. > > The significance, for me, was not in the contents which are well known > and extensively commented upon but in who had written the piece (Mahir > Ali - a Muslim) and where it was published (DAWN - a leading Pakistani > newspaper). > > Mahir Ali also cuts through sectarian bias by being equally critical of > such incidents in both Saudi Arabia and Iran. Admittedly, Mahir Ali being > Sydney based might feel insulated from any backlash but it took courage > from DAWN to publish. > > The well known (or notorious) Ayaan Hirsi Ali is much more strident > (blasphemous indeed) in her castigation over the same incidents (and the > Taslima Nasreen affair). In an Op-Ed piece in The New York Times she > writes: > > """"""" It is often said that Islam has been “hijacked” by a small > extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims > are said to be moderates. > > But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the > terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing > to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner > of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said > it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no > longer be done?""""""" > > She ends her opinion piece with the pointed admonition: > > """"""When a “moderate” Muslim’s sense of compassion and conscience > collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. > Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful > thinking.""""" > > I thought Mahir Ali's article was one example of compassion and > conscience taking precedence over anything else. > > I firmly believe that such introspection and correction in a society > should be undertaken preferably from within (as by Mahir Ali or Ayaan > Hirsi Ali) and 'outsiders' should not interfere. "Outsiders", very often, > have a unidimensional understanding depending on who has been most > successful in selling a viewpoint. There are enough "social" and > "political" examples of such "mess created by outsiders" situations both > within India and Internationally. > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/opinion/07ali.html?ei=5070&en=82ea8ff7f2fff4c9&ex=1197694800&emc=eta1&pagewanted=print > > Islam’s Silent Moderates > By AYAAN HIRSI ALI > > The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of > them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a > matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. > (Koran 24:2) > > > IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen > Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up > in horror. > > A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been > abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim > herself to be guilty. Her crime is called “mingling”: when she was > abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or > marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was > sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane. > > Two hundred lashes are enough to kill a strong man. Women usually receive > no more than 30 lashes at a time, which means that for seven weeks the > “girl from Qatif,” as she’s usually described in news articles, will dread > her next session with Islamic justice. When she is released, her life will > certainly never return to normal: already there have been reports that her > brother has tried to kill her because her “crime” has tarnished her > family’s honor. > > We also saw Islamic justice in action in Sudan, when a 54-year-old > British teacher named Gillian Gibbons was sentenced to 15 days in jail > before the government pardoned her this week; she could have faced 40 > lashes. When she began a reading project with her class involving a teddy > bear, Ms. Gibbons suggested the children choose a name for it. They chose > Muhammad; she let them do it. This was deemed to be blasphemy. > > Then there’s Taslima Nasreen, the 45-year-old Bangladeshi writer who > bravely defends women’s rights in the Muslim world. Forced to flee > Bangladesh, she has been living in India. But Muslim groups there want her > expelled, and one has offered 500,000 rupees for her head. In August she > was assaulted by Muslim militants in Hyderabad, and in recent weeks she > has had to leave Calcutta and then Rajasthan. Taslima Nasreen’s visa > expires next year, and she fears she will not be allowed to live in India > again. > > It is often said that Islam has been “hijacked” by a small extremist > group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to > be moderates. > > But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the > terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing > to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner > of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said > it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no > longer be done? > > Usually, Muslim groups like the Organization of the Islamic Conference > are quick to defend any affront to the image of Islam. The organization, > which represents 57 Muslim states, sent four ambassadors to the leader of > my political party in the Netherlands asking him to expel me from > Parliament after I gave a newspaper interview in 2003 noting that by > Western standards some of the Prophet Muhammad’s behavior would be > unconscionable. A few years later, Muslim ambassadors to Denmark protested > the cartoons of Muhammad and demanded that their perpetrators be > prosecuted. > > But while the incidents in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and India have done more > to damage the image of Islamic justice than a dozen cartoons depicting the > Prophet Muhammad, the organizations that lined up to protest the hideous > Danish offense to Islam are quiet now. > I wish there were more Islamic moderates. For example, I would welcome > some guidance from that famous Muslim theologian of moderation, Tariq > Ramadan. But when there is true suffering, real cruelty in the name of > Islam, we hear, first, denial from all these organizations that are so > concerned about Islam’s image. We hear that violence is not in the Koran, > that Islam means peace, that this is a hijacking by extremists and a smear > campaign and so on. But the evidence mounts up. > > Islamic justice is a proud institution, one to which more than a billion > people subscribe, at least in theory, and in the heart of the Islamic > world it is the law of the land. But take a look at the verse above: more > compelling even than the order to flog adulterers is the command that the > believer show no compassion. It is this order to choose Allah above his > sense of conscience and compassion that imprisons the Muslim in a mindset > that is archaic and extreme. > > If moderate Muslims believe there should be no compassion shown to the > girl from Qatif, then what exactly makes them so moderate? > > When a “moderate” Muslim’s sense of compassion and conscience collides > with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that > happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking. > > Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident > scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of “Infidel.” > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > Dear Kshemendra, > > Thank you for this forward. Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan are > indeed sad spectacles of the depths to which theocracies and dictatorships > will descend. The recent sad spectacle of a kindergarten teacher having to > go to prison because of the teddy bear episode in Sudan indicates the > moral > bankruptcy of islamist regimes. > > Incidentally, Indian public and private sector companies, especially in > the > Petro Chemicals sector are a big player in Sudan, even though the Sudanese > state is implicated in gross abuses, especially in the Darfur region. > > I think that a concerted effort to expose the level of official and > corporate Indian backing for corrupt Islamist regimes such as those that > rule in Sudan would be timely. I think that the extent of influence that > the Saudi regime has purchased in India (in cold hard cash) also needs to > be thought about. I am sure that if tomorrow an Indian university decided > to name its library after George Bush there would (rightly) be a furore, > and yet, I was dismayed a few months ago to discover, that Jamia Millia > Islamia (a university where I studied) had decided to name its library > after the corrupt Saudi Monarch King Abdullah, who presides over the most > sexist regime on earth. Every self respecting woman student of Jamia > Millia > Islamia should could consider herself personally insulted whenever she has > to enter this library building. > > It is sad that no Indian newspaper or television channel has ever thought > it necessary to send journalists to probe the extent to which the Indian > state provides aid and succor to such brutal regimes and their clients, be > they in Burma or in Sudan. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > On 7:25 pm 12/08/07 Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Common sense under attack >> By Mahir Ali >> >> http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mahir/arc-mahir.htm >> >> >> WHEN she arrived in Khartoum four months ago, Gillian Gibbons >> couldn’t possibly have had any inkling that she’d be headed back to >> England some four months later, following a stint in prison. >> >> In a statement issued last Saturday, the incarcerated 54-year-old >> Liverpudlian said she wasn’t keen to leave Sudan and would much rather >> return to work. “The Sudanese people in general have been pleasant and >> very generous,’’ she noted, “and I’ve had nothing but good >> experiences during my four months here.” >> >> What makes the level of equanimity and goodwill remarkable is that >> the previous day, following Friday prayers, there were mobs baying for >> her blood, demanding that the 15-day prison sentence handed down by a >> Khartoum court be upgraded to death by a firing squad. So, what exactly >> did Gibbons do to inspire such demands for vengeance? >> >> Well, a month into her stint as a teacher at the Unity School, where >> she was in charge of seven-year-olds, she came up with a device for >> engaging the kids’ interest in one of the designated topics: bears. >> One of the children brought her teddy bear to school and her classmates >> were assigned the task of taking the teddy home, one by one, and >> writing about their experiences. >> >> Before the project got underway, Gibbons asked the kids to choose a >> name for the cuddly toy. There were various suggestions, including >> Abdullah and Hassan. A little boy called Mohammad put forward his own >> name for consideration. The teacher arranged a class vote and Mohammad >> won hands down. She accepted the democratic verdict. Reasonably enough, >> the idea that anyone would find this objectionable appears not to have >> so much as crossed her mind. Two months later, police arrived at the >> Unity compound to arrest Gibbons for insulting Islam. The school’s >> director, Robert Boulos, was told that some parents had complained to >> the ministry of education. It subsequently turned out that the sole >> complainant was in fact an office assistant at the school, who served >> as the main witness for the prosecution - or, to be more precise, >> persecution. >> >> The verdict of 15 days in prison followed by deportation occasioned >> sighs of relief, given that it could have been worse: six months in >> prison and 40 lashes. At the weekend, two Muslim British peers were >> engaged in negotiations with the Sudanese authorities in Khartoum, and >> they were expected to fly back to London with Gibbons after obtaining a >> presidential pardon. That’s all very well, but the point remains that >> the only insult in this case - an insult to common sense, if not to >> Islam - came from those who pursued a vendetta on patently absurd >> grounds. It has been argued that Gibbons erred inadvertently, that as a >> novice in Sudan she was unaware of cultural sensitivities. That’s an >> unnecessarily patronising point of view; I suspect she erred only in >> failing to make an allowance for the idiocy of some Muslims. It has >> also been suggested that the Sudanese government stoked the controversy >> in order to draw international attention away from the monumental >> tragedy in Darfur. There may be some truth in that, but there’s >> probably more logic in sheeting home the blame to sheer dogmatic >> blockheadedness. >> >> An example of considerably more egregious judicial malice has, >> meanwhile, surfaced in Saudi Arabia, where a victim of gang rape has >> been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison. The supposed >> logic behind this punishment illustrates the extent to which the >> kingdom operates in a different time zone from much of the world - in >> terms of centuries rather than hours. >> >> The unnamed, recently married 19-year-old, who has been dubbed the >> Qatif girl in a reference to her mainly Shia hometown, apparently >> wished to retrieve a photograph of herself from a former male >> acquaintance before she moved in with her husband, so she arranged a >> meeting with the young man. While the two of them were in a car, they >> were accosted by a couple of men armed with knives, who took them to an >> isolated area. The young woman was violated 14 times by seven men, >> three of whom also raped her companion. >> >> When the case came before a Qatif court, the judges sentenced four of >> the assailants to terms ranging up to five years for kidnapping, but >> also sentenced the Qatif girl and her male friend to 90 lashes each for >> the ‘crime’ of being in each other’s company. Her lawyer, a human >> rights advocate by the name of Abdul-Rehman al-Lahem, filed an appeal >> and also brought the case to the notice of the media. He was >> consequently stripped of his licence, and his client’s sentence was >> more than doubled to 200 lashes plus six months in prison. >> >> There are grounds for assuming that officially sanctioned crimes >> against humanity along these lines are not exactly a rarity in Saudi >> Arabia, although they don’t always attract international attention. >> Queried on the subject during his Annapolis trip last week, Prince Saud >> al-Faisal commented: “What is outraging about this case is that it is >> being used against the Saudi government and its people.” In fact, what >> is ‘outraging’ about this case is that the victims of an abominable >> crime have been sentenced to humiliating and painful punishments on >> utterly frivolous grounds, and that too on the basis of depositions by >> their assailants. >> >> Such instances make it extremely difficult to take Islamic justice >> seriously. The Saudi justice ministry has sought to malign the Qatif >> girl by saying that she has confessed to having an extramarital affair >> - which, apart from probably being untrue, is neither here nor there. >> >> The only hopeful signs in this context are al-Lahem’s endeavours, >> plus the fact that the Qatif girl’s husband has chosen to serve as a >> pillar of support instead of divorcing her. What’s more, at least a >> couple of Saudi columnists have dared to raise their voices against >> their nation’s system of injustice. Much of the West, meanwhile, >> continues to court Riyadh as if it were a bastion of sanity and >> stability in an otherwise turbulent region. >> >> Inanities in the name of Islam are not restricted to Sudan and Saudi >> Arabia, of course. Pakistan frequently emerges as a venue for all >> manner of excesses. Recent examples from a few neighbouring countries, >> however, should suffice to bear out this contention. >> >> In Iran, 27-year-old Dr Zahra Baniyaghoub died while in the custody >> of the morality and virtue police after she and her fiancé were >> arrested for chatting to each other in a public park. The authorities >> claimed she committed suicide, but Baniyaghoub’s family doesn’t >> accept this explanation, evidently for very good reasons, and has >> engaged the services of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Shirin Ebadi to >> press for an inquiry. In India, Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen >> continues to be hounded by Muslims for her supposed blasphemy, while in >> Turkey Erol Karaaslan, the translator and publisher of Richard >> Dawkins’ atheist treatise The God Delusion faces charges of inciting >> religious hatred. >> >> Karaaslan is about as guilty as Gillian Gibbons. It should be clear >> to even the meanest intelligence that the dimwits engaged in turning >> molehills into mountains are doing a monumental disservice to the faith >> they purport to uphold. >> >> The writer is a journalist based in Sydney. >> >> mahir.worldview at gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! >> Search. _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne >> t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 15:53:31 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 02:23:31 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWN Dec 5, 2007) In-Reply-To: <343828.66881.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <344bb495cd1e1e5db560ed540a0ab391@sarai.net> <343828.66881.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0712110223mfbebbe8uaef237227e57b4da@mail.gmail.com> if you find it helpful please note their muslimness or nonmuslimness is irrelevant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_Action_Forum http://af.org.pk/mainpage.htm From amitabh at sarai.net Tue Dec 11 21:09:47 2007 From: amitabh at sarai.net (Amitabh Kumar) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:09:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 4th Comic Book Reading. Message-ID: <4F1B355D-81FB-4F34-8D73-CE845B7E8DE7@sarai.net> Sarai-CSDS and the FIRC ( French Information Resource Center) are pleased to announce the 4th Comic Book Reading, ' Modern Heresies' by Sarnath Banerjee. The roots of the Comic Book form can be traced back to the 16th century 'execution' posters in England. Subsequently , it went on to grow into other such forms of reportage and advertising. These include the event reportage and illustrations used in the dailies (much before the half penny revolution) such as the police eyewitness accounts and the war diaries. This was how comics were born. Humour and Adventure / Fantasia later became styles/genres that defined the form. Blinding all other genres. Outside of the well-worn path of biography and autobiography,non-fiction has traditionally been one of the most frustratingly under-developed areas of the comics medium.In our times too Graphical Reportage and Documentary Comics to some is an oxymoron, as if comics and documentation in Graphical Reportage cancel each other out. We intend to question that. Sarnath Banerjee will be talking about reportage comics and comics that have been used as a tool for socio-political commentary and ethnography. Time: 5:30 p.m. Venue: Seminar Hall, 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines, Delhi. Sarai, unlike the urban legend floating around, is not between Pluto and Jupiter. There are very simple ways to reach Sarai. We are located in the Civil Lines area in North Delhi, close to Delhi University. You have to cross the ridge from Delhi University to get to Rajpur Road, where Sarai is located. Any bus that takes you to ‘Exchange Stores/ I.P. College/ Mall Road’ will also take you places from where Rajpur Road is a short distance. If you take an auto rickshaw or taxi from South Delhi or any other part of the city, the best thing to say is ‘Near Transport Authority, Underhill Road, Civil Lines, I.P. College’; most auto and taxi drivers know the Civil Lines ‘Authority’ well. We are two minutes away from this landmark. The quickest and easiest way to get to Sarai is to take the Delhi Metro, from Connaught Place (Rajiv Chowk) to Civil Lines, or to change at Kashmiri Gate and take the metro to Civil Lines. Get off at Civil Lines cross Shamnath Marg, get on to Underhill Road, walk (10 minutes) to the end of Underhill Road, where it meets Rajpur Road. Turn left, you will see Number 29, Rajpur Road soon (on your left). This is CSDS. Walk in, we are in the basement of the big white building behind the sunken lawn. (for details check: http://www.sarai.net/about-us/contact ) All are welcome!!! From amitabh at sarai.net Tue Dec 11 21:09:47 2007 From: amitabh at sarai.net (Amitabh Kumar) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:09:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] 4th Comic Book Reading. Message-ID: <4F1B355D-81FB-4F34-8D73-CE845B7E8DE7@sarai.net> Sarai-CSDS and the FIRC ( French Information Resource Center) are pleased to announce the 4th Comic Book Reading, ' Modern Heresies' by Sarnath Banerjee. The roots of the Comic Book form can be traced back to the 16th century 'execution' posters in England. Subsequently , it went on to grow into other such forms of reportage and advertising. These include the event reportage and illustrations used in the dailies (much before the half penny revolution) such as the police eyewitness accounts and the war diaries. This was how comics were born. Humour and Adventure / Fantasia later became styles/genres that defined the form. Blinding all other genres. Outside of the well-worn path of biography and autobiography,non-fiction has traditionally been one of the most frustratingly under-developed areas of the comics medium.In our times too Graphical Reportage and Documentary Comics to some is an oxymoron, as if comics and documentation in Graphical Reportage cancel each other out. We intend to question that. Sarnath Banerjee will be talking about reportage comics and comics that have been used as a tool for socio-political commentary and ethnography. Time: 5:30 p.m. Venue: Seminar Hall, 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines, Delhi. Sarai, unlike the urban legend floating around, is not between Pluto and Jupiter. There are very simple ways to reach Sarai. We are located in the Civil Lines area in North Delhi, close to Delhi University. You have to cross the ridge from Delhi University to get to Rajpur Road, where Sarai is located. Any bus that takes you to ‘Exchange Stores/ I.P. College/ Mall Road’ will also take you places from where Rajpur Road is a short distance. If you take an auto rickshaw or taxi from South Delhi or any other part of the city, the best thing to say is ‘Near Transport Authority, Underhill Road, Civil Lines, I.P. College’; most auto and taxi drivers know the Civil Lines ‘Authority’ well. We are two minutes away from this landmark. The quickest and easiest way to get to Sarai is to take the Delhi Metro, from Connaught Place (Rajiv Chowk) to Civil Lines, or to change at Kashmiri Gate and take the metro to Civil Lines. Get off at Civil Lines cross Shamnath Marg, get on to Underhill Road, walk (10 minutes) to the end of Underhill Road, where it meets Rajpur Road. Turn left, you will see Number 29, Rajpur Road soon (on your left). This is CSDS. Walk in, we are in the basement of the big white building behind the sunken lawn. (for details check: http://www.sarai.net/about-us/contact ) All are welcome!!! _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From rana at ranadasgupta.com Tue Dec 11 22:17:35 2007 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:17:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The new anti-pornography bill in Indonesia Message-ID: <475EBF27.7000605@ranadasgupta.com> this from a friend of mine in jakarta. indonesian islamists have tried unsuccessfully before to pass a ban on certain kinds of female clothing and on "pornographic" images or text. they are making another effort now. the revised anti-porn bill proposes banishment for porn offenders to remote areas for 1 to 15 years. The following article gives some details. R The Jakarta Post - Opinion News - Tuesday, December 11, 2007 A swinging anti-pornography bill Leon Agusta, Jakarta After a disappearance from public attention, the anti-pornography bill has now resurfaced with the new name "Anti-Pornography Bill", when several factions in the House of Representatives, in particular the Prosperous Justice Party (PKS), United Development Party (PPP), and Golkar -- after initially questioning it, sent on the bill without the required approval of a plenary session to the government executives for further study. Other factions had held a critical stance from the beginning, such as the Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI-P), National Awakening Party (PKB), and the National Mandate Party (PAN), were not given the opportunity to put forward their opinions. In terms of legal procedure, the bill is flawed. Thus we need to ask: Why were these factions so anxious to hand the bill over to the executive body that they actually broke the rules? The definition of pornography according to the bill says: "Pornography is any man-made work that includes sexual materials in the form of drawings, sketches, illustrations, photographs, text, sound, moving pictures, animation, cartoons, poetry, conversation, or any other form of communicative messages; it also may be shown through the media in front of the public; it can arouse lust and lead to the violation of normative values within society; and it can also cause the development of pornographic acts within society". In regard to exceptions, the bill stipulates that: "... it does not include the making, the distribution, and the use of pornography for a) sexual dysfunctions therapy, b) art and cultural performances, and c) customary and traditional rituals". During a discussion, organized by a private radio station in Jakarta last week, poet W.S. Rendra asserted that: "The bill displays a crisis of common sense. It is against Pancasila (Five Principles ideology), and there is no existing law that calls for it. It is against the principles of social justice and the sovereignty of the people. ... The Pornography Bill is culturally dangerous. Anything that cannot be defined with clarity should never be turned into a binding law. Pornography should be left within the territory of morality and religions-not some act. The Pornography Bill is flawed as it neglects the codes of morality and the codes of religions." Having heard Rendra's words regarding the potential dangers of the bill once it is approved, some said, "It would be great to see him speak during a parliamentary session". "Would that be possible?" Speaking in the same forum, Sinta Nuriyah Abdurrahman Wahid also underlined the dangers of this bill. "The bill is politics-ridden; it is a political agenda. It might be used to justify repressive conduct. As a woman I don't feel protected. As a woman I actually feel under threat. What they should've done is maximize the implementation of laws and other legal acts that we already have instead of turning the law into some kind of commodity," she said. At Taman Ismail Marzuki, a home shared by artists, last Nov. 28, the reaction toward the bill was unanimous acrimony. Marco Kosumawijaya, the executive of the Jakarta Arts Council, strongly objected to the Pornography Bill. "The reasoning behind the bill is ambiguous..." According to Marco, to put bodily expressions in the arts, culture, and customs under the same category as pornography is blasphemy toward the arts, culture, and customs themselves. Would the respectable members of the legislature be willing to take the reactions of the people into consideration during their final sessions on the bill?" It is hard to tell (or is it?). Apparently, it will take some time before any side can win this battle. It is also apparent that it is highly possible that if the controversy becomes too extensive, the whole matter will one day make its way into the Constitutional Court. It is hard to believe that this country can give birth to such a bill. It is inevitable that some might get the impression that the House of Representatives, or at least the Pornography Bill Special Committee, is intentionally sowing the seeds of catastrophe in this nation. This is terrifying! Why can't they see this? What is really going on in that house of voices? Leon Agusta is a poet From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 23:42:03 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:42:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Essay on the Kashmiri poet :Ahad Zarger's vachun Message-ID: <47e122a70712111012h56890c22if6aef97a6310d492@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aranab As promised in Delhi, I am forwarding some passages of an essay written by Dr, M. Maroof Shah published in 'The Journal of Kashmir Studies' ( university of Kashmir , Srinagar ). The essay is titled The Crises of Western Humanism: A sufi response of Ahad Zargar. No doubt about the fact that sufi poetry is running in the veins of average Kashmiri, but the celebration of this particular poet in Kashmir tells us a different story about Kashmir and its approach to love life and spirituality. Not only the song is available in the market ( sung by noted singer Abdul Rashid Hafiz) but every year ' sham-e-Zarger is still celebrated in the heart of srinagar by numersou lovers of zargar sahib. My performance: From Lal Ded to Ahad Zargar at LTG Gallery on 4th of Dec. was part celebration part introduction to the poet outside Kashmir. I believe, any discussion on Ahad Zarger and other sufi poets automatically deconstructs the ill-orchestrated fundamentalist face of average Kashmiri. ( the original poem in Kashmiri is published as well ) Abastract: The present paper attempts a critical appraisal of Secular Western Humansim from a Sufiistic perspective. While highlighting the divergence between Sufisim and Secular anthropocentric humanism it argues how the Sufi image of man as presented in one of the Vachuns ( song) Zargar appropriates and moves beyond humanistic conceptions of human dignity and gives it a metaphysical foundation. Introduction: Secular humanism of the Modern West arose as a protest against medieval metaphysics and scholasticism, a revolt against theocentricism of the traditional man. The Greeks are its progenitors. Believing in the dignity of the individual, unlimited progress of mankind, making this earth a heaven and earthly perfectionism it has however failed to deliver. Serving all ties with the transcendence and focusing its gaze on the earth and man's earthly vacation and destiny it idolized reason and science. However it was Nietzsche who sensed fissures in this philosophy and with the advent of structuralism and post structuralism and postmodernism humanism has ben challenged. The metanarrative of humanism has been indeed discredited as secular scientific metanarrative has got problematized. Absurdist nihilist relativist skeptical mood of modern and post modern literature is an evidence of the failure of the humanstic ideology. The question is whether there is still any hope for man, any way to affirm his dignity, any means to make man realize the perfection that early humanistic had dreamed of ? Is there any consolation for man? Sufisim answers in the affirmative and for this it rejects fundamental metaphysical assumptions of humanism in all its varieties such as Huxley's theological humanism or scientific humanism and Marxist humanism. Here we attempt to trace Sufi appropriation of humansitics ideal in one of the vachuns ( song ) of Ahad Zargar, a twentieth century Sufi Poet of Kashmir. Sufisim while rejecting secular anthropocentric scientific humanism of the West affirms the dignity of man, integrates him with the universe, gives him meaning and purpose, grounds values of truth, beauty and goodness and dispels skeptical challenge through mystical and metaphysical realization in gnosis. Characteristics of Western Humansim: Sufism and Humanism : All that is really positive in humanism is appropriated by Mysticism. If humanist wants to be no less than God, to safeguard human dignity, unity and freedom and expand his frontiers of knowledge to the level of omniscience, to be the pole of existence, to appropriate everything in the heavens and the earth ( macrocosmos ) in micorcosmos, to conquer space and time, to know the unlimate truth, the Origin and the End, to soar high and " scan" God to be in the heaven of his own making, to celebrate beauty and goodness , then Sufi like Ahad Zargar is the model worth emulating. Western humanism, despite its grand claims miserably to deliver it promises and ends in absurdism and pessimism and culminates in the death of man. Modern and post modern man has reached the blind end of the road of negation and does not know how to affirm. He knows on la as Iqbal puts it. Zargar and Sufi Humanism Zargar in the above quoted verses asserts that Man ( as far as he appropriates/ is appropriated by the Spirit that is not his but is in him ) is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Omnipotent and the only existent. He is the most precious treasure, the revealer of the hidden treasure that is God,. Knowing the sipar of the self one knows, rather experiences God, the Absolute. And this necessitates transcendence of what Kierkegaard calls the ethical stage of man. Through negation he affirms as the Islamic Shahadah demands. He transcends man to become superman ( not the super of Nietzsche although he reembles him in certain respects ) or tires to approximate the perfect man who is beyond good and evil as he becomes the very goodness. He is in a state whether where neither haram nor halal entereth. The humanist is unable to transcend merely human state and thus he is denied perfection of the divine. He is unable to transcend the state of Abduhu. He can not be granted miraj, and he can not see what maqam-i-mahmood is. The Sufi sees no duality. His eyes become God's eye and his hands become the Beloved's hands. He has obliterated his ego so that God could be reflected in him. He is no more merely human as he has crossed the dark night of the soul and as he is as perfect as his father in heaven. He can not be characterized as this or that as his path is pathless and his track trackless in that transcendence of wara-ul-wara. He is no more a wave in the oceans as he is gone in fana and achieved the baqa by partaking of the ocean, by becoming the ocean. That is why he could say that he has fashioned Adam and breathed life into him. The mystic is not a moral man in the usual legalist sense of the term. In that metaethical transcendence, transcendence of the what Guenon calls moralism, which is prerogative law even through not being abolished is transcended nonetheless. Law is made for man and not vice versa and Jesus would say. The sufi discovers law within himself. He does not see it as an imposition from without. The believer's heart is thr real authority, the real judge of halal and haram. Real mufti is within. That is why the Sufi lives outside the realm of ethics but in the plane of morality. The Sufi is the supremely moral mean as he has not lustful self, no separative ego to choose good or bad. He has so totally surrendered that God's will becomes his will. He is beyond Good and Evil, in a state where the very question of haram and hala doesn't exist. The Sufi by scenting unity has passed beyond the duality of sugar and poison as Rumi say. Man becomes the light , a law unto himself. He is his own imam as Love is his imamand that makes him bandaay azad to use Iqbalian phrase. Love is God for the Sufi and love is above law. Qyam and sujud and bayhazoor unless Ishq is the imam as Iqbal reminds us. The sufi renounces everthing--- all clinging and all attachments and desires so he can dispense with awalad ( son ) Love transforms all relationships and life becomes blissful, orgasmic. Love kills death and thus life and death become mingled. This is what Zargar perhaps means by zindi kari mordus saeth souhbat. The universe is Self's manifestation. There is nothing outside the self. Love is not timeless for him. His love is sham love. The other is hell for him. There is no other for Sufi, as there is no I and Thou in the river of Wahdat. When one loves the self by experiencing love all sorrow disappears. Thre is no more the dominion of evil and suffering. Everything becomes divine. The earth becomes heaven. The ego cant exist when there is love. So the humanist is not willing to relinquish the eo or self. So he can not be clothed by the divine self or love. That is why love has disappeared from the modern world. There is no Boddhisatva in sight. That is moder humanist literature mourns the death of God and of Love. There is no bliss in things finite as one of the Upanisadic rishis says. The Quran also says Ala hi zikrillahi tatmainal qualoob. That is why modern literature is plagues by pessimism and absurdism. Kashmiri literature especially the mystical literature knows nothing of alienation, exile and consequent pessimism. The pir-i-waer/rishiwaer ( valley of saints ) in Kashmir knows nothing of it. Mystical sensibilities can not coexist with despair and alienation of any kind. Humansim takes alienation for granted and can not do anything about it as God who is the principe of dealienation is not living or felt reality for it. Despair is Kufu as the Quran says. The sufi celebrates love and beauty. As he sees nothing by God everywhere he is always blissful as God is Ananda, Bliss. Western Humanism has created wastelands and desertes because it has deprived man of God who is chasmati Haywaan. Zargar minces no words in condemining faqehai kur zouq, zahid and mullah. Misli dushman zahid fasi din. Religion is song, celebration, ecstasy, love, beauty, Exoterism is precisely the opposite. So a sufi can not be but scared of it. That is why he takes allegory, symbolism and poetry. There is no humanist writer in Kashmir at least until the twentieth century because traditional Kashmiri writer is steeped in mystical and religious lore. To call Lall or Sheikh-ul-allam a humanist is totally unwarranted given the past history of the humanism, especially its use by philosophers and historians. Humansim even if it believes in God is not acceptable in the religious context of sufism. Conclusion >From the analysis of Ahad Zargar's vachun we see that Sufism by transcending the finitude and limitation of the empirical self and individual through fana attains subsistence ( baqa) in God, the round of triple values of goodness, truth and beauty. Man is affirmed and his divinity and perfection ensured. The empirical self dies so that man realizes the immortal self that is characterized as Existence, Consciousness and Bliss. By appropriatieng the divine akhlaq or attributes the Sufi makes man a Godman, the perfect man, the heir of the kingdomof God. He sings the song of life, larger life as his consciousness transcends the fetters of space and time. He becomes the bird of lamakan. The poem: Vanquish the void, soul's text reads, in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. The enlightened knows the meaning of codes. While you live, conjugate with the male, let him have the bliss of passion; male and female are but a gamble of union. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. The one you have your spouse by contract, cherish mouthfuls of her bosom' milk; do not get fuddled up by others' gossip. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. Discern the sign and slay you father, and marry the one you gave you birth; exile you brother to some alien land. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. Boldly dismember your child's body, throw the piece into the gushing spate; if you dare, then savour the flesh. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. Declare the profane sacred by one word, and bow in prayer where there is no Qibla; follow the infidel as you Imam. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. Hang the abstinent treat him as your foe, and slaughter all those who profess faith, first you burn down the prayer house. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. I gave life to the clay model And named it human being I gave birth to Prophet and his words Almighty itself shone because of me. I alone am the centre, I am the circle, I alone am permeating all form of being; all forms do emanate from my own-most being. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. Be one special and escape the concierge, multitudes are beguiled by undesired thought; dare to stone the angels of heavens. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. I unravel the secret to the discerning ones, the mindless hone their steel arrows; Ahad Zargar thus composed this venomous song. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. with love is -- From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 09:13:19 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:13:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Essay on the Kashmiri poet :Ahad Zarger's vachun In-Reply-To: <47e122a70712111012h56890c22if6aef97a6310d492@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70712111012h56890c22if6aef97a6310d492@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120712111943q7d7f1469qedb137aea99def8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder, I thank you for sharing this piece with us.I would be grateful if you could tell me the name of the album in which this poem is sung by Rashid Hafiz. Incidentally this was one of Zargar's first poems for which he even had to face Fatwa.Nonetheless it remains a milestone in Kashmiri poetry. Thanks once again. May God be with you. Rashneek On 12/11/07, inder salim wrote: > > Dear Aranab > > As promised in Delhi, I am forwarding some passages of an essay > written by Dr, M. Maroof Shah published in 'The Journal of Kashmir > Studies' ( university of Kashmir , Srinagar ). The essay is titled The > Crises of Western Humanism: A sufi response of Ahad Zargar. > > No doubt about the fact that sufi poetry is running in the veins of > average Kashmiri, but the celebration of this particular poet in > Kashmir tells us a different story about Kashmir and its approach to > love life and spirituality. Not only the song is available in the > market ( sung by noted singer Abdul Rashid Hafiz) but every year ' > sham-e-Zarger is still celebrated in the heart of srinagar by numersou > lovers of zargar sahib. My performance: From Lal Ded to Ahad Zargar at > LTG Gallery on 4th of Dec. was part celebration part introduction to > the poet outside Kashmir. I believe, any discussion on Ahad Zarger and > other sufi poets automatically deconstructs the ill-orchestrated > fundamentalist face of average Kashmiri. > > ( the original poem in Kashmiri is published as well ) > > Abastract: The present paper attempts a critical appraisal of Secular > Western Humansim from a Sufiistic perspective. While highlighting the > divergence between Sufisim and Secular anthropocentric humanism it > argues how the Sufi image of man as presented in one of the Vachuns ( > song) Zargar appropriates and moves beyond humanistic conceptions of > human dignity and gives it a metaphysical foundation. > > Introduction: > > Secular humanism of the Modern West arose as a protest against > medieval metaphysics and scholasticism, a revolt against > theocentricism of the traditional man. The Greeks are its progenitors. > Believing in the dignity of the individual, unlimited progress of > mankind, making this earth a heaven and earthly perfectionism it has > however failed to deliver. Serving all ties with the transcendence and > focusing its gaze on the earth and man's earthly vacation and destiny > it idolized reason and science. However it was Nietzsche who sensed > fissures in this philosophy and with the advent of structuralism and > post structuralism and postmodernism humanism has ben challenged. The > metanarrative of humanism has been indeed discredited as secular > scientific metanarrative has got problematized. Absurdist nihilist > relativist skeptical mood of modern and post modern literature is an > evidence of the failure of the humanstic ideology. The question is > whether there is still any hope for man, any way to affirm his > dignity, any means to make man realize the perfection that early > humanistic had dreamed of ? Is there any consolation for man? Sufisim > answers in the affirmative and for this it rejects fundamental > metaphysical assumptions of humanism in all its varieties such as > Huxley's theological humanism or scientific humanism and Marxist > humanism. Here we attempt to trace Sufi appropriation of humansitics > ideal in one of the vachuns ( song ) of Ahad Zargar, a twentieth > century Sufi Poet of Kashmir. Sufisim while rejecting secular > anthropocentric scientific humanism of the West affirms the dignity of > man, integrates him with the universe, gives him meaning and purpose, > grounds values of truth, beauty and goodness and dispels skeptical > challenge through mystical and metaphysical realization in gnosis. > Characteristics of Western Humansim: > > Sufism and Humanism : > > All that is really positive in humanism is appropriated by Mysticism. > If humanist wants to be no less than God, to safeguard human dignity, > unity and freedom and expand his frontiers of knowledge to the level > of omniscience, to be the pole of existence, to appropriate everything > in the heavens and the earth ( macrocosmos ) in micorcosmos, to > conquer space and time, to know the unlimate truth, the Origin and the > End, to soar high and " scan" God to be in the heaven of his own > making, to celebrate beauty and goodness , then Sufi like Ahad Zargar > is the model worth emulating. Western humanism, despite its grand > claims miserably to deliver it promises and ends in absurdism and > pessimism and culminates in the death of man. Modern and post modern > man has reached the blind end of the road of negation and does not > know how to affirm. He knows on la as Iqbal puts it. > > Zargar and Sufi Humanism > Zargar in the above quoted verses asserts that Man ( as far as he > appropriates/ is appropriated by the Spirit that is not his but is in > him ) is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the > Omnipotent and the only existent. He is the most precious treasure, > the revealer of the hidden treasure that is God,. Knowing the sipar of > the self one knows, rather experiences God, the Absolute. And this > necessitates transcendence of what Kierkegaard calls the ethical stage > of man. Through negation he affirms as the Islamic Shahadah demands. > He transcends man to become superman ( not the super of Nietzsche > although he reembles him in certain respects ) or tires to approximate > the perfect man who is beyond good and evil as he becomes the very > goodness. He is in a state whether where neither haram nor halal > entereth. The humanist is unable to transcend merely human state and > thus he is denied perfection of the divine. He is unable to transcend > the state of Abduhu. He can not be granted miraj, and he can not see > what maqam-i-mahmood is. The Sufi sees no duality. His eyes become > God's eye and his hands become the Beloved's hands. He has obliterated > his ego so that God could be reflected in him. He is no more merely > human as he has crossed the dark night of the soul and as he is as > perfect as his father in heaven. He can not be characterized as this > or that as his path is pathless and his track trackless in that > transcendence of wara-ul-wara. He is no more a wave in the oceans as > he is gone in fana and achieved the baqa by partaking of the ocean, by > becoming the ocean. That is why he could say that he has fashioned > Adam and breathed life into him. > > > The mystic is not a moral man in the usual legalist sense of the term. > In that metaethical transcendence, transcendence of the what Guenon > calls moralism, which is prerogative law even through not being > abolished is transcended nonetheless. Law is made for man and not vice > versa and Jesus would say. The sufi discovers law within himself. He > does not see it as an imposition from without. The believer's heart > is thr real authority, the real judge of halal and haram. Real mufti > is within. That is why the Sufi lives outside the realm of ethics but > in the plane of morality. The Sufi is the supremely moral mean as he > has not lustful self, no separative ego to choose good or bad. He has > so totally surrendered that God's will becomes his will. He is beyond > Good and Evil, in a state where the very question of haram and hala > doesn't exist. The Sufi by scenting unity has passed beyond the > duality of sugar and poison as Rumi say. Man becomes the light , a law > unto himself. He is his own imam as Love is his imamand that makes him > bandaay azad to use Iqbalian phrase. Love is God for the Sufi and > love is above law. Qyam and sujud and bayhazoor unless Ishq is the > imam as Iqbal reminds us. The sufi renounces everthing--- all > clinging and all attachments and desires so he can dispense with > awalad ( son ) Love transforms all relationships and life becomes > blissful, orgasmic. Love kills death and thus life and death become > mingled. This is what Zargar perhaps means by zindi kari mordus > saeth souhbat. The universe is Self's manifestation. There is nothing > outside the self. Love is not timeless for him. His love is sham love. > The other is hell for him. There is no other for Sufi, as there is no > I and Thou in the river of Wahdat. When one loves the self by > experiencing love all sorrow disappears. Thre is no more the dominion > of evil and suffering. Everything becomes divine. The earth becomes > heaven. The ego cant exist when there is love. So the humanist is not > willing to relinquish the eo or self. So he can not be clothed by the > divine self or love. That is why love has disappeared from the modern > world. There is no Boddhisatva in sight. That is moder humanist > literature mourns the death of God and of Love. There is no bliss in > things finite as one of the Upanisadic rishis says. The Quran also > says Ala hi zikrillahi tatmainal qualoob. That is why modern > literature is plagues by pessimism and absurdism. Kashmiri literature > especially the mystical literature knows nothing of alienation, exile > and consequent pessimism. The pir-i-waer/rishiwaer ( valley of saints > ) in Kashmir knows nothing of it. Mystical sensibilities can not > coexist with despair and alienation of any kind. Humansim takes > alienation for granted and can not do anything about it as God who is > the principe of dealienation is not living or felt reality for it. > Despair is Kufu as the Quran says. The sufi celebrates love and > beauty. As he sees nothing by God everywhere he is always blissful as > God is Ananda, Bliss. Western Humanism has created wastelands and > desertes because it has deprived man of God who is chasmati Haywaan. > > > Zargar minces no words in condemining faqehai kur zouq, zahid and > mullah. Misli dushman zahid fasi din. Religion is song, celebration, > ecstasy, love, beauty, Exoterism is precisely the opposite. So a sufi > can not be but scared of it. That is why he takes allegory, symbolism > and poetry. > > There is no humanist writer in Kashmir at least until the twentieth > century because traditional Kashmiri writer is steeped in mystical and > religious lore. To call Lall or Sheikh-ul-allam a humanist is totally > unwarranted given the past history of the humanism, especially its use > by philosophers and historians. Humansim even if it believes in God is > not acceptable in the religious context of sufism. > > Conclusion > > From the analysis of Ahad Zargar's vachun we see that Sufism by > transcending the finitude and limitation of the empirical self and > individual through fana attains subsistence ( baqa) in God, the round > of triple values of goodness, truth and beauty. Man is affirmed and > his divinity and perfection ensured. The empirical self dies so that > man realizes the immortal self that is characterized as Existence, > Consciousness and Bliss. By appropriatieng the divine akhlaq or > attributes the Sufi makes man a Godman, the perfect man, the heir of > the kingdomof God. He sings the song of life, larger life as his > consciousness transcends the fetters of space and time. He becomes the > bird of lamakan. > > > The poem: > > > Vanquish the void, soul's text reads, > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > The enlightened knows the meaning of codes. > > While you live, conjugate with the male, > let him have the bliss of passion; > male and female are but a gamble of union. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > The one you have your spouse by contract, > cherish mouthfuls of her bosom' milk; > do not get fuddled up by others' gossip. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > Discern the sign and slay you father, > and marry the one you gave you birth; > exile you brother to some alien land. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > Boldly dismember your child's body, > throw the piece into the gushing spate; > if you dare, then savour the flesh. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > Declare the profane sacred by one word, > and bow in prayer where there is no Qibla; > follow the infidel as you Imam. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > Hang the abstinent treat him as your foe, > and slaughter all those who profess faith, > first you burn down the prayer house. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > I gave life to the clay model > And named it human being > I gave birth to Prophet and his words > Almighty itself shone because of me. > > I alone am the centre, I am the circle, > I alone am permeating all form of being; > all forms do emanate from my own-most being. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > Be one special and escape the concierge, > multitudes are beguiled by undesired thought; > dare to stone the angels of heavens. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > I unravel the secret to the discerning ones, > the mindless hone their steel arrows; > Ahad Zargar thus composed this venomous song. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > > with love > is > > -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 13:42:03 2007 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:12:03 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] The Dark Side of Microcredit Message-ID: http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/5050/16_days/dowry_microcredit The dark side of micro-credit Santi Rozario Bangladesh's pioneering micro-finance revolution is also helping to fuel the twin abuses of dowry and domestic violence. Santi Rozario investigates 10 - 12 - 2007 Over the last two to three decades rural Bangladeshi society has experienced a complex range of developments. Among these, NGOs, micro-finance institutions and garment industries have become the major agents of change in the lives of rural Bangladeshi women. Women's increased access to independent sources of finance, through participation in outside paid employment or through micro-credit, is usually taken as one of the main indicators of the improvement of women's status and of women's empowerment. However, a puzzle remains: if these positive changes have resulted in women's "empowerment", why has there not been the kind of improvements in women's position that might be expected, such as the reduction or abolition of dowry payments, or a reduction in domestic violence? Indeed, if anything these tend to be going in the opposite direction. Dowry amounts continue to rise, as does the associated violence against women. Also on micro-finance in Bangladesh: Farida Khan, "Muhammad Yunus: an economics for peace" It is true that individual women, women's organisations and other NGOs continue to struggle against these problems. Yet, despite all this effort, women continue to be subject to demands for large amounts of dowry as a condition for acceptance by their groom's family. Married women are also frequently subjected to physical and psychological violence by their husbands and in-laws if they cannot keep bringing in more and more dowry, especially within the first few years of their marriage. Understanding dowry To understand the seemingly intractable problem of dowry, we need to understand the rationale behind the practice. Dowry practices in Bangladesh (the demand or dabi from grooms' families) are a relatively new phenomenon. Their rise is linked to the capitalist transformation of the Bangladeshi economy since the late 1960s and the resultant disjunction between the demands of the economy and the system of values in Bangladeshi society. This has led to a valorization of men and devalorization of women, legitimated both by a socially created surplus of marriageable women compared to men, and also by the threat posed to ideas of women's purity and honour by women's increasing physical mobility. All this in turn has made it possible for dowry to become a critical source of capital for families with sons, who are an increasingly prized commodity. These new negative developments in relation to women and dowry can be understood better by appreciating that in Bangladeshi culture marriage and dependence upon your husband is thought essential for women. By 'dependence' I mean both perceived and real economic dependency as well as the moral or cultural dependency of all women on one or another adult man of their family. The necessity for all women to be married, along with the perceived 'risks' posed by an unmarried woman to her family's honour, means that families feel pressured to marry off their daughters as soon as possible after puberty. This lowers the marriage age for women, so creating a perceived surplus of women in relation to men, who are not under the same pressure to marry and so generally marry later in life. This again leads to further inflation of dowries and to the further devaluing of women - economically, culturally and morally - in relation to men. Also in openDemocracy on the 16 Days theme, part of our overall 50.50 coverage, a multi-voiced blog with contributions from women and men around the world Other articles in the 16 Days series include: Roja Bandari, "Iran's women: listen now!" Rahila Gupta, "The UK's modern slavery shame" Takyiwaa Manuh, "African women and domestic violence" Anne-Marie Goetz and Joanne Sandler "War and sexual violence" Rebecca Barlow, "Women and conflict" Jameen Kaur, "India's silent tragedy Beyond the law Dowry was declared illegal in Bangladesh in 1980. However, like many other laws in Bangladesh this has had little or no impact. When faced with demands for large dowries, families are reluctant to take legal action for fear of losing suitable grooms. Thus villagers will say that if one family takes legal action, no other potential grooms will come forward to ask to marry a girl from that village in future. While there are para-legal staff in some rural villages, poor people only seek their assistance when a woman has been divorced after repeated demands for more and more dowry, combined with extensive violence. Families never report cases when dowry is demanded during marital negotiations. When I asked several groups of poor women what was their biggest problem during some recent research for CARE Bangladesh, their almost unanimous answer was "dowry". When I asked about violence, I heard numerous stories about how most of the violence against women was related to their parents' inability to meet the demands of husbands and their families for more and more money or other goods. Dowry has come to be one of the most critical sources of capital for all families. It is not only practiced as a one-off payment during marriage, but many families continue to use their newly-married incoming wives as an ongoing source of capital, by sending them back to their natal home again and again to bring back more capital. If the wives' families cannot oblige, the wives are subjected to violence, or even divorce. One such woman I spoke to, Ruksana, is the second of four sisters from a poor family. She was married to her cousin Ataul, and her parents paid 80,000 Bangladeshi Taka as dowry. After the marriage her mother-in-law mistreated her and demanded a bicycle, some jewellery and additional Tk30,000. Ruksana's mother took a Tk7000 loan from Grameen Bank, bought a cycle and made some ear-rings in the hope that the mother-in-law (her own brother's wife) would treat her daughter better, but Ruksana was pressured for more money. Ruksana did not want to tell her parents since they were already struggling to keep up payments on the first loan and could not afford enough food. Her mother-in-law then tricked her into signing divorce papers (she was told the papers were to obtain another loan), forced her to return to her parents' house, and arranged a new marriage for Ataul. The dark side of micro-credit This is where micro-credit has contributed to the escalation of dowry. While micro-credit has benefited large sections of the rural population in many ways, it has also worked against women's solidarity and contributed heavily to the inflation of dowry. Grooms' families are aware that money is available to brides' families more easily now, through Grameen Bank, the Bangladesh Rural Advancement Committee (BRAC) or other NGOs. I have often heard of women being sent home to persuade their parents to borrow money from an NGO for their husbands to invest in business, including buying items such as rickshaws, vans, grocery shops or irrigation pumps. Although in theory micro-finance institutions do not lend money for the purposes of dowry payment, in practice it is common knowledge among the barefoot bankers (micro-finance institution employees distributing and collecting loans among village people) that most village families depend on micro-credit to meet dowry demands. It is because of such near universal dependence of men on their wives' families for capital that dowry has come to be perceived by women's organisations as intractable and as 'too political' a problem to tackle directly. Dismantling the hierarchy Notwithstanding certain structural constraints, I still believe there are ways to arrest the problem of dowry, and in my work for CARE I made a number of recommendations. They include; collaboration between institutions working for women's rights to campaign on dowry, inheritance rights and domestic violence; development of a large-scale rural legal aid service following the model already developed by Ain o Salish Kendra (ASK) and the Bangladesh Rural Advancement Committee (BRAC); working with religious authorities; use of media, education and role models to contest village stereotypes of women. Another key point to consider is that the perpetuation of dowry and violence against women cannot only be blamed on men, particularly poor men. It is actually the middle-class families, who keep their women relatively sheltered in order to protect their purity and honour, and compete most heavily for status hierarchy through dowry displays, who are most responsible for perpetuating both dowry practices and gender domination. Middle-class women too gain from this status hierarchy. They demand dowry for their sons, are relatively able to pay large dowry for their daughters, and play active roles in maintaining their superior status in relation to less well-off women. As a result, they are often the people least willing to reject the dowry system. It is hard to see how things will change for poor village families when they are taken for granted by the rural and urban middle classes, who act as moral arbiters for the society as a whole. In tackling the problem of middle class attitudes, a piecemeal approach may work. In the shorter term, the younger middle class generation, who might have studied abroad and returned to Bangladesh, and do not necessarily share the same values to their parents, could be targeted. They are more often prepared to challenge familial values, for instance by marrying someone of their own choice without involvement of dowries. There also needs to be a dialogue between the women's organisations - especially legal ones such as Ask and the Bangladesh National Women Lawyers' Association (BNWLA) - and religious leaders. I believe if there is the political will on the part of the government, women's organisations, religious leaders, large NGOs and civil society in general, religious leaders can be used quite effectively in addressing the problem of dowry and violence against women. There is some precedence for this; in recent years religious leaders have been used very successfully in motivating large sections of the village people into accepting contraceptives within a relatively short space of time. Finally, education is frequently recommended as a solution to all sorts of problems in Bangladeshi society. I would recommend the same, but with less emphasis on rote learning and more on educating the young so they begin to question gender and other structural hierarchies very early in life. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 17:52:04 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:22:04 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate Message-ID: THE LEFT AND ITS "INTELLECTUAL" DETRACTORS PRABHAT PATNAIK With normalcy returning to Nandigram, and with the heat generated over it in intellectual circles somewhat subsiding, it is time for us to ask the question: why did so many intellectuals suddenly turn against the Party with such amazing fury on this issue? This question is important because joining issue with them on the basis of facts on the specificities of Nandigram, which is what we have been doing till now, is not enough. It is not enough for instance to underscore the fact, implicitly or explicitly denied by virtually all of them, that thousands of poor people were driven out of their homes into refugee camps for the only "crime" of being CPI(M) supporters; it is not enough to argue against them that there was no semblance of an excuse for keeping Nandigram out of bounds for these refugees and for the civil administration even after the Left Front government had categorically declared that no chemical hub would be built there; it is not enough to point out that the so-called "re-occupation" of Nandigram in November was an act of desperation which followed the failure of every other effort at restoring normalcy and bringing the refugees back to their homes. All these facts and arguments have been advanced at length, and are by now passé. But the phenomenon of several intellectuals who till yesterday were with the Left in fighting communal fascism but have now turned against it requires serious analysis. There is no gainsaying that the Left Front government made serious mistakes in handling the Nandigram issue; and Buddhadeb Bhattacharya has said so in as many words. But disagreement with the LF over this could have taken the form of friendly criticism, articles, and open letters, and not of such outright hostility that even put the LF on a par with communal fascism. Likewise disagreements over the LF's industrialization policy could have been aired in a manner that had none of the ferocity which has been recently displayed. Differences with the LF, even basic differences, therefore cannot suffice as an explanation of what we have just witnessed. Likewise, the fact that most of these intellectuals are in any case strongly anti-organized Left, especially anti-Communist (and in particular anti-CPI(M)), belonging as they do to the erstwhile "socialist" groups, to NGOs, to the ranks of Naxalite sympathizers, to the community of "Free Thinkers", and to various shades of "populism", would not suffice as an explanation. After all, despite this basic hostility to the organized Left, they did make common cause with it on several issues till recently. Why is it suddenly so different now? The context clearly has changed. With the perceived decline in the strength of the communal fascist forces, a certain fracturing of the anti-communal coalition was inevitable and has happened, and this no doubt provides the setting in which it becomes possible for these intellectuals to express in the open the hostility which they might have felt all along against the Left. Indeed, this perceived weakening of the BJP may even encourage attempts, on the part of intellectuals hostile to the Left but aligned to it earlier owing to the pressure of circumstances, at establishing a sort of intellectual hegemony over society at large at the expense of the Left. But while the recession of the communal fascist threat certainly creates the condition for these intellectuals to come out openly against the Left, the manner of their coming out cannot be explained only by this fact. It indicates something more serious, namely the process of destruction of politics that the phenomenon of globalization has unleashed. The crux of political praxis consists at any time in distinguishing between two camps: the camp of the "people" and camp hostile to the interests of "the people". This distinction in turn is based on an analysis of the prevailing contradictions, and the identification of the principal contradiction, on the basis of which the composition of the class alliance that constitutes the camp of "the people" is determined. And corresponding to this constellation of classes, there is a certain constellation of political forces among whom relations have to be forged. It is obvious that the relationship between the political forces representing the classes that constitute the camp of the people at any time, and the nature of criticism among these forces, must be different from the relationship and criticism across camps. Not to distinguish between the camps, not to distinguish between alternative constellations of political forces, but to club them together on the basis of the identical nature of their presumed moral trespasses, is to withdraw from politics. What is striking about the attitude of the intellectuals arrayed against the organized Left at present is their complete withdrawal from the realm of political praxis to a realm of messianic moralism. Such messianic moralism is not just politically counter-productive. The withdrawal from the realm of politics that it signifies, strengthens politically the camp of the "enemies of the people". (In India for instance the attack inspired by messianic moralism that has been launched on the organized Left at a time when the latter is in the forefront of an extremely crucial but difficult struggle against the attempt of imperialism to make India its strategic ally, weakens that struggle, and thereby plays into the hands of imperialism). But messianic moralism, quite apart from its palpable political consequences, is smug, self-righteous, self-adulatory, and, above all, empty. An attitude that does not distinguish between types of violence, between the different episodes of violence, that condemns all violence with equal abhorrence, that places on a footing of equality all presumed perpetrators of violence, amounts in fact to a condemnation of nothing. To say that all are equally bad is not even morally meaningful. This messianic moralism, this withdrawal from politics, is based fundamentally on a disdain of politics, of the messy world of politics, which is far from being peopled by angels. It constitutes therefore a mirror image of the very phenomenon that it seeks to resist, namely the "cult of development" spawned by neo-liberalism. Manmohan Singh says: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach "development" from politics. The anti-Left intellectuals say: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach the struggle against "development" from politics. This disdain for politics, this contempt for the political process, is what characterizes substantial sections of the middle class in India today. It is visible in the absolute opposition of the students of elite institutions to the legislation on reservations passed unanimously by parliament. It is visible in the persistent resort to the judicial process to overturn decisions of legislatures, and the exhortations to the judiciary to act as a body superior to the elected representatives of the people. This middle class contempt for politics and politicians is apparent in the rise of movements like "Youth For Equality" that make no secret of it and whose avowed aim is to combat "affirmative action" which they consider to be the handiwork of "opportunist" politicians. The rise of messianic moralism is a part of the same trend, which is nothing else but a process of "destruction of politics". Middle class moralism upholds causes, not programmes. It flits from cause to cause. And it apotheosizes the absence of systematic political alliances. Some may call it "post-modern politics", but it amounts to a negation of politics. Messianic moralism always has a seductive appeal for intellectuals. To avoid systematic partisanship, to stand above the messy world of politics, to pronounce judgements on issues from Olympian moral heights, and to be applauded for one's presumed "non-partisanship", gives one a sense of both comfort and fulfillment. This seductive appeal is heightened by the contemporary ambience of middle class disdain for politics which the phenomenon of globalization, subtly but assiduously, nurtures and promotes. The answer to the question with which we started, namely why have so many intellectuals turned against the Left with such fury, lies to a significant extent in the fact that this fury against the Left is also fed by a revolt against politics. The revolt against the CPI(M) is simultaneously a revolt against politics. The combination of anti-communism with a rejection of politics in general gives this revolt that added edge, that special anger. It is the anger of the morality of the "anti-political" against the morality of the "political", for Communism, notwithstanding its substitution of the "political" for the "moral", has nonetheless a moral appeal. The venom in the anti-Left intellectuals' attack on the Left comes from the fact that this struggle, of the "morality of the anti-political" against the "morality of the political", takes on the character of a desperate last struggle, a final push to destroy the latter, since "our day has come at last!". Ironically it was a group of US-based academics led by Noam Chomsky who sought to introduce a political perspective to the anti-Left agitation of the intellectuals on Nandigram. It is they who pointed out that in the anti-imperialist struggle, which is the defining struggle of our times (the struggle around the principal contradiction), the organized Left was an essential component of the camp of the "people", and that nothing should be done to disrupt the unity of the camp of the "people". But the response of the anti-Left intellectuals to the injection of this political perspective was a barrage of attacks on Chomsky et al for taking a "pro-CPI(M)" position. A political position ipso facto was identified as a "pro-CPI(M)" position. There could be no clearer proof of the proposition that the revolt of the intellectuals against the Left was simultaneously a revolt against politics, a disdain for politics that has become so prevalent a phenomenon in the era of globalization that it affects as much the proponents of globalization as its avowed critics. In fact these critics and the votaries of imperialist globalization share in this respect the same terrain of discourse. The hallmark of the organized Left lies precisely in the fact it rejects this terrain of discourse, that it accords centrality to politics, that it does not substitute an abstract Olympian moralism for concrete political mobilization. It is for this reason therefore that the Left's attitude to these intellectuals must be informed by politics; it cannot be a mirror image of their attitude to the Left. Prabhat Patnaik Professor, Centre for Economic Studies and Planning, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi Vice Chair, Planning Board, Government of Kerala. From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 21:11:37 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:41:37 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Naeem. This is far more sophisticated than the defence we have seen so far on this list. A few impressions from a quick scan in lieu of a reading, for which I do not have time just now, unfortunately. Here is a gem that caught my eye, and I love it: "The revolt against the CPI(M) is simultaneously a revolt against politics." I wish I could have such wonderful certitudes in life. That would have made my life a lot simpler, if a little empty of reflective content. However, that is just me, an armchair revolutionary of the anti-politics brigade ... maybe not even that, because I hesitate to call myself leftist or rightist, and the author is referring specifically to leftists who have turned against the CPI(M) ... so I am probably even beneath scorn. Anyhow, from my (rightful) place in the nether regions, I would like to squeak a warning to active anti-politics revolutionaries: Beware! You have been put out of play; disqualified from the arena of politics lock, stock, and barrel. One other thing - the author seems to be rather fond of the phrase "messianic moralism." I am curious to know if this is his original contribution to theorizing about Indian politics. And what exactly is its analytic value? I would appreciate it if members who have studied these things, would enlighten me. Last but not the least, there is the formula of "all of you who attack us are helping the barbarians at the gate". Not really novel, but probably effective with some people. Tapas On 12/12/2007, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > THE LEFT AND ITS "INTELLECTUAL" DETRACTORS > > PRABHAT PATNAIK > > With normalcy returning to Nandigram, and with the heat generated over it in > intellectual circles somewhat subsiding, it is time for us to ask the > question: why did so many intellectuals suddenly turn against the Party with > such amazing fury on this issue? From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 22:09:38 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:39:38 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate References: Message-ID: <006201c83cdd$99da2af0$cc21ab0a@taraprakash> So is he trying to equate the left "intellectuals'" revolt against attrocities in Nandigram, with bourgeois abhorence of "politics"? Is he also crying "wolf" with clear purpose of diverting attention from other, equally dangerous, wolves? Making such noise sitting in the secured JNU campus and in closed air conditioned rooms, does not harm him at all. Did anybody ever expect Prabhat to have such limited understanding of politics? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 7:22 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate > THE LEFT AND ITS "INTELLECTUAL" DETRACTORS > > PRABHAT PATNAIK > > With normalcy returning to Nandigram, and with the heat generated over it > in > intellectual circles somewhat subsiding, it is time for us to ask the > question: why did so many intellectuals suddenly turn against the Party > with > such amazing fury on this issue? > > This question is important because joining issue with them on the basis of > facts on the specificities of Nandigram, which is what we have been doing > till now, is not enough. It is not enough for instance to underscore the > fact, implicitly or explicitly denied by virtually all of them, that > thousands of poor people were driven out of their homes into refugee camps > for the only "crime" of being CPI(M) supporters; it is not enough to argue > against them that there was no semblance of an excuse for keeping > Nandigram > out of bounds for these refugees and for the civil administration even > after > the Left Front government had categorically declared that no chemical hub > would be built there; it is not enough to point out that the so-called > "re-occupation" of Nandigram in November was an act of desperation which > followed the failure of every other effort at restoring normalcy and > bringing the refugees back to their homes. All these facts and arguments > have been advanced at length, and are by now passé. But the phenomenon of > several intellectuals who till yesterday were with the Left in fighting > communal fascism but have now turned against it requires serious analysis. > > There is no gainsaying that the Left Front government made serious > mistakes > in handling the Nandigram issue; and Buddhadeb Bhattacharya has said so in > as many words. But disagreement with the LF over this could have taken the > form of friendly criticism, articles, and open letters, and not of such > outright hostility that even put the LF on a par with communal fascism. > Likewise disagreements over the LF's industrialization policy could have > been aired in a manner that had none of the ferocity which has been > recently > displayed. Differences with the LF, even basic differences, therefore > cannot > suffice as an explanation of what we have just witnessed. > > Likewise, the fact that most of these intellectuals are in any case > strongly > anti-organized Left, especially anti-Communist (and in particular > anti-CPI(M)), belonging as they do to the erstwhile "socialist" groups, to > NGOs, to the ranks of Naxalite sympathizers, to the community of "Free > Thinkers", and to various shades of "populism", would not suffice as an > explanation. After all, despite this basic hostility to the organized > Left, > they did make common cause with it on several issues till recently. Why is > it suddenly so different now? > > The context clearly has changed. With the perceived decline in the > strength > of the communal fascist forces, a certain fracturing of the anti-communal > coalition was inevitable and has happened, and this no doubt provides the > setting in which it becomes possible for these intellectuals to express in > the open the hostility which they might have felt all along against the > Left. Indeed, this perceived weakening of the BJP may even encourage > attempts, on the part of intellectuals hostile to the Left but aligned to > it > earlier owing to the pressure of circumstances, at establishing a sort of > intellectual hegemony over society at large at the expense of the Left. > But > while the recession of the communal fascist threat certainly creates the > condition for these intellectuals to come out openly against the Left, the > manner of their coming out cannot be explained only by this fact. It > indicates something more serious, namely the process of destruction of > politics that the phenomenon of globalization has unleashed. > > The crux of political praxis consists at any time in distinguishing > between > two camps: the camp of the "people" and camp hostile to the interests of > "the people". This distinction in turn is based on an analysis of the > prevailing contradictions, and the identification of the principal > contradiction, on the basis of which the composition of the class alliance > that constitutes the camp of "the people" is determined. And corresponding > to this constellation of classes, there is a certain constellation of > political forces among whom relations have to be forged. It is obvious > that > the relationship between the political forces representing the classes > that > constitute the camp of the people at any time, and the nature of criticism > among these forces, must be different from the relationship and criticism > across camps. Not to distinguish between the camps, not to distinguish > between alternative constellations of political forces, but to club them > together on the basis of the identical nature of their presumed moral > trespasses, is to withdraw from politics. What is striking about the > attitude of the intellectuals arrayed against the organized Left at > present > is their complete withdrawal from the realm of political praxis to a realm > of messianic moralism. > > Such messianic moralism is not just politically counter-productive. The > withdrawal from the realm of politics that it signifies, strengthens > politically the camp of the "enemies of the people". (In India for > instance > the attack inspired by messianic moralism that has been launched on the > organized Left at a time when the latter is in the forefront of an > extremely > crucial but difficult struggle against the attempt of imperialism to make > India its strategic ally, weakens that struggle, and thereby plays into > the > hands of imperialism). But messianic moralism, quite apart from its > palpable > political consequences, is smug, self-righteous, self-adulatory, and, > above > all, empty. An attitude that does not distinguish between types of > violence, > between the different episodes of violence, that condemns all violence > with > equal abhorrence, that places on a footing of equality all presumed > perpetrators of violence, amounts in fact to a condemnation of nothing. To > say that all are equally bad is not even morally meaningful. > > This messianic moralism, this withdrawal from politics, is based > fundamentally on a disdain of politics, of the messy world of politics, > which is far from being peopled by angels. It constitutes therefore a > mirror > image of the very phenomenon that it seeks to resist, namely the "cult of > development" spawned by neo-liberalism. Manmohan Singh says: politics is > filthy; rise above politics; detach "development" from politics. The > anti-Left intellectuals say: politics is filthy; rise above politics; > detach > the struggle against "development" from politics. > > This disdain for politics, this contempt for the political process, is > what > characterizes substantial sections of the middle class in India today. It > is > visible in the absolute opposition of the students of elite institutions > to > the legislation on reservations passed unanimously by parliament. It is > visible in the persistent resort to the judicial process to overturn > decisions of legislatures, and the exhortations to the judiciary to act as > a > body superior to the elected representatives of the people. This middle > class contempt for politics and politicians is apparent in the rise of > movements like "Youth For Equality" that make no secret of it and whose > avowed aim is to combat "affirmative action" which they consider to be the > handiwork of "opportunist" politicians. > > The rise of messianic moralism is a part of the same trend, which is > nothing > else but a process of "destruction of politics". Middle class moralism > upholds causes, not programmes. It flits from cause to cause. And it > apotheosizes the absence of systematic political alliances. Some may call > it > "post-modern politics", but it amounts to a negation of politics. > > Messianic moralism always has a seductive appeal for intellectuals. To > avoid > systematic partisanship, to stand above the messy world of politics, to > pronounce judgements on issues from Olympian moral heights, and to be > applauded for one's presumed "non-partisanship", gives one a sense of both > comfort and fulfillment. This seductive appeal is heightened by the > contemporary ambience of middle class disdain for politics which the > phenomenon of globalization, subtly but assiduously, nurtures and > promotes. > > The answer to the question with which we started, namely why have so many > intellectuals turned against the Left with such fury, lies to a > significant > extent in the fact that this fury against the Left is also fed by a revolt > against politics. The revolt against the CPI(M) is simultaneously a revolt > against politics. The combination of anti-communism with a rejection of > politics in general gives this revolt that added edge, that special anger. > It is the anger of the morality of the "anti-political" against the > morality > of the "political", for Communism, notwithstanding its substitution of the > "political" for the "moral", has nonetheless a moral appeal. The venom in > the anti-Left intellectuals' attack on the Left comes from the fact that > this struggle, of the "morality of the anti-political" against the > "morality > of the political", takes on the character of a desperate last struggle, a > final push to destroy the latter, since "our day has come at last!". > > Ironically it was a group of US-based academics led by Noam Chomsky who > sought to introduce a political perspective to the anti-Left agitation of > the intellectuals on Nandigram. It is they who pointed out that in the > anti-imperialist struggle, which is the defining struggle of our times > (the > struggle around the principal contradiction), the organized Left was an > essential component of the camp of the "people", and that nothing should > be > done to disrupt the unity of the camp of the "people". But the response of > the anti-Left intellectuals to the injection of this political perspective > was a barrage of attacks on Chomsky et al for taking a "pro-CPI(M)" > position. A political position ipso facto was identified as a "pro-CPI(M)" > position. There could be no clearer proof of the proposition that the > revolt > of the intellectuals against the Left was simultaneously a revolt against > politics, a disdain for politics that has become so prevalent a phenomenon > in the era of globalization that it affects as much the proponents of > globalization as its avowed critics. In fact these critics and the > votaries > of imperialist globalization share in this respect the same terrain of > discourse. > > The hallmark of the organized Left lies precisely in the fact it rejects > this terrain of discourse, that it accords centrality to politics, that it > does not substitute an abstract Olympian moralism for concrete political > mobilization. It is for this reason therefore that the Left's attitude to > these intellectuals must be informed by politics; it cannot be a mirror > image of their attitude to the Left. > > Prabhat Patnaik > Professor, Centre for Economic Studies and Planning, Jawaharlal Nehru > University, New Delhi > Vice Chair, Planning Board, Government of Kerala. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vadhimoolam at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 02:32:30 2007 From: vadhimoolam at gmail.com (Vetrivel Adhimoolam) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:02:30 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But what caught my attention was the writer's tendency to consider CPIM as the synonyms for politics. Perhaps the writer doesn't realize the actual interpretation of this statement. It means that those who buy the politics of CPIM are the only political actors and the rest are apolitical creatures. So don't they share a commonality with the existing communal forces all over the world? Shame on them to be claiming themselves to be left politicians. Vetri. ----- Original Message ----- From: Naeem Mohaiemen To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 7:22 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate THE LEFT AND ITS "INTELLECTUAL" DETRACTORS PRABHAT PATNAIK With normalcy returning to Nandigram, and with the heat generated over it in intellectual circles somewhat subsiding, it is time for us to ask the question: why did so many intellectuals suddenly turn against the Party with such amazing fury on this issue? This question is important because joining issue with them on the basis of facts on the specificities of Nandigram, which is what we have been doing till now, is not enough. It is not enough for instance to underscore the fact, implicitly or explicitly denied by virtually all of them, that thousands of poor people were driven out of their homes into refugee camps for the only "crime" of being CPI(M) supporters; it is not enough to argue against them that there was no semblance of an excuse for keeping Nandigram out of bounds for these refugees and for the civil administration even after the Left Front government had categorically declared that no chemical hub would be built there; it is not enough to point out that the so-called "re-occupation" of Nandigram in November was an act of desperation which followed the failure of every other effort at restoring normalcy and bringing the refugees back to their homes. All these facts and arguments have been advanced at length, and are by now passé. But the phenomenon of several intellectuals who till yesterday were with the Left in fighting communal fascism but have now turned against it requires serious analysis. There is no gainsaying that the Left Front government made serious mistakes in handling the Nandigram issue; and Buddhadeb Bhattacharya has said so in as many words. But disagreement with the LF over this could have taken the form of friendly criticism, articles, and open letters, and not of such outright hostility that even put the LF on a par with communal fascism. Likewise disagreements over the LF's industrialization policy could have been aired in a manner that had none of the ferocity which has been recently displayed. Differences with the LF, even basic differences, therefore cannot suffice as an explanation of what we have just witnessed. Likewise, the fact that most of these intellectuals are in any case strongly anti-organized Left, especially anti-Communist (and in particular anti-CPI(M)), belonging as they do to the erstwhile "socialist" groups, to NGOs, to the ranks of Naxalite sympathizers, to the community of "Free Thinkers", and to various shades of "populism", would not suffice as an explanation. After all, despite this basic hostility to the organized Left, they did make common cause with it on several issues till recently. Why is it suddenly so different now? The context clearly has changed. With the perceived decline in the strength of the communal fascist forces, a certain fracturing of the anti-communal coalition was inevitable and has happened, and this no doubt provides the setting in which it becomes possible for these intellectuals to express in the open the hostility which they might have felt all along against the Left. Indeed, this perceived weakening of the BJP may even encourage attempts, on the part of intellectuals hostile to the Left but aligned to it earlier owing to the pressure of circumstances, at establishing a sort of intellectual hegemony over society at large at the expense of the Left. But while the recession of the communal fascist threat certainly creates the condition for these intellectuals to come out openly against the Left, the manner of their coming out cannot be explained only by this fact. It indicates something more serious, namely the process of destruction of politics that the phenomenon of globalization has unleashed. The crux of political praxis consists at any time in distinguishing between two camps: the camp of the "people" and camp hostile to the interests of "the people". This distinction in turn is based on an analysis of the prevailing contradictions, and the identification of the principal contradiction, on the basis of which the composition of the class alliance that constitutes the camp of "the people" is determined. And corresponding to this constellation of classes, there is a certain constellation of political forces among whom relations have to be forged. It is obvious that the relationship between the political forces representing the classes that constitute the camp of the people at any time, and the nature of criticism among these forces, must be different from the relationship and criticism across camps. Not to distinguish between the camps, not to distinguish between alternative constellations of political forces, but to club them together on the basis of the identical nature of their presumed moral trespasses, is to withdraw from politics. What is striking about the attitude of the intellectuals arrayed against the organized Left at present is their complete withdrawal from the realm of political praxis to a realm of messianic moralism. Such messianic moralism is not just politically counter-productive. The withdrawal from the realm of politics that it signifies, strengthens politically the camp of the "enemies of the people". (In India for instance the attack inspired by messianic moralism that has been launched on the organized Left at a time when the latter is in the forefront of an extremely crucial but difficult struggle against the attempt of imperialism to make India its strategic ally, weakens that struggle, and thereby plays into the hands of imperialism). But messianic moralism, quite apart from its palpable political consequences, is smug, self-righteous, self-adulatory, and, above all, empty. An attitude that does not distinguish between types of violence, between the different episodes of violence, that condemns all violence with equal abhorrence, that places on a footing of equality all presumed perpetrators of violence, amounts in fact to a condemnation of nothing. To say that all are equally bad is not even morally meaningful. This messianic moralism, this withdrawal from politics, is based fundamentally on a disdain of politics, of the messy world of politics, which is far from being peopled by angels. It constitutes therefore a mirror image of the very phenomenon that it seeks to resist, namely the "cult of development" spawned by neo-liberalism. Manmohan Singh says: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach "development" from politics. The anti-Left intellectuals say: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach the struggle against "development" from politics. This disdain for politics, this contempt for the political process, is what characterizes substantial sections of the middle class in India today. It is visible in the absolute opposition of the students of elite institutions to the legislation on reservations passed unanimously by parliament. It is visible in the persistent resort to the judicial process to overturn decisions of legislatures, and the exhortations to the judiciary to act as a body superior to the elected representatives of the people. This middle class contempt for politics and politicians is apparent in the rise of movements like "Youth For Equality" that make no secret of it and whose avowed aim is to combat "affirmative action" which they consider to be the handiwork of "opportunist" politicians. The rise of messianic moralism is a part of the same trend, which is nothing else but a process of "destruction of politics". Middle class moralism upholds causes, not programmes. It flits from cause to cause. And it apotheosizes the absence of systematic political alliances. Some may call it "post-modern politics", but it amounts to a negation of politics. Messianic moralism always has a seductive appeal for intellectuals. To avoid systematic partisanship, to stand above the messy world of politics, to pronounce judgements on issues from Olympian moral heights, and to be applauded for one's presumed "non-partisanship", gives one a sense of both comfort and fulfillment. This seductive appeal is heightened by the contemporary ambience of middle class disdain for politics which the phenomenon of globalization, subtly but assiduously, nurtures and promotes. The answer to the question with which we started, namely why have so many intellectuals turned against the Left with such fury, lies to a significant extent in the fact that this fury against the Left is also fed by a revolt against politics. The revolt against the CPI(M) is simultaneously a revolt against politics. The combination of anti-communism with a rejection of politics in general gives this revolt that added edge, that special anger. It is the anger of the morality of the "anti-political" against the morality of the "political", for Communism, notwithstanding its substitution of the "political" for the "moral", has nonetheless a moral appeal. The venom in the anti-Left intellectuals' attack on the Left comes from the fact that this struggle, of the "morality of the anti-political" against the "morality of the political", takes on the character of a desperate last struggle, a final push to destroy the latter, since "our day has come at last!". Ironically it was a group of US-based academics led by Noam Chomsky who sought to introduce a political perspective to the anti-Left agitation of the intellectuals on Nandigram. It is they who pointed out that in the anti-imperialist struggle, which is the defining struggle of our times (the struggle around the principal contradiction), the organized Left was an essential component of the camp of the "people", and that nothing should be done to disrupt the unity of the camp of the "people". But the response of the anti-Left intellectuals to the injection of this political perspective was a barrage of attacks on Chomsky et al for taking a "pro-CPI(M)" position. A political position ipso facto was identified as a "pro-CPI(M)" position. There could be no clearer proof of the proposition that the revolt of the intellectuals against the Left was simultaneously a revolt against politics, a disdain for politics that has become so prevalent a phenomenon in the era of globalization that it affects as much the proponents of globalization as its avowed critics. In fact these critics and the votaries of imperialist globalization share in this respect the same terrain of discourse. The hallmark of the organized Left lies precisely in the fact it rejects this terrain of discourse, that it accords centrality to politics, that it does not substitute an abstract Olympian moralism for concrete political mobilization. It is for this reason therefore that the Left's attitude to these intellectuals must be informed by politics; it cannot be a mirror image of their attitude to the Left. Prabhat Patnaik Professor, Centre for Economic Studies and Planning, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi Vice Chair, Planning Board, Government of Kerala. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From skinnyghosh at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 11:31:13 2007 From: skinnyghosh at gmail.com (sukanya ghosh) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:31:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4760CAA9.1080000@gmail.com> It is amazing how these so called academic responses to the issue of the Nandigram protests seem to turn the entire thing into a petty battle ground between a group of intellectuals and the left. Perhaps they would be better served if they would take the time to question their association with the broad happy nexus called the 'Left' which they presume exists in our country. Perhaps they would like to examine the lumpen idiocy that goes by the name of the West Bengal government. Nobody, least of all the government itself, has any pretensions to any kind of leftist ideology. We who have watched and listened and yes voted for these people time and again into office have been subject to the barrage of their imbecilic verbiage for decades. And what of the Left front in the centre - these are the people in the politburo who have neither inclination or the backbone to take a stand on something that will after all endanger their seats in parliament. The actual people who have any vestige of leftist thought is actually in the people who are being labelled 'intellectuals' (how weird that this has become a kind of swearword in some recent debates), 'enemies of the people', 'anti-left', 'communist haters' etc etc. In fact the group of intellectuals who reacted violently and 'turned against the party' are in fact not a such a small group. They are in fact the entire of city of Calcutta. I don't intend to be parochial by this observation or to dismiss the protests that have come from all other quarters - but it is worth taking a moment to ponder the significance of the change in public opinion that has been precipitated by Nandigram. For those who are aware of the incredible malaise and ennui that has dogged our city and it's people for decades, the importance of this will become clear. For the first time, 'the people' i its truest sense of the term are awake. and protesting. in the manner that they can. The prominent intellectuals who for years have shared, if not party tickets then many a happy partnership with the CPI (M) government, have at first been bewildered, confused and then have had to make their peace with loss of faith. Perhaps it's worth taking a look at the number of party memberships that have been returned. The ordinary indulgent middle class underbelly of the city which has taken to ignoring bandhs and other irritants in our daily lives, who for once marked their protest in a marked no-show. Who would have thought that mamata's strident call for a bandh would have garnered this nature of silent success. The thousands of the people who took to the road that afternoon in protest cutting across age, idea and class. And the newspapers and media taking a breather from trivial pursuit to carry prominent articles and strongly worded editorials. These are the enemies of the people. And for what? There is really no point in theorizing or writing papers about the loss of a political sense or disdain for political thought. Sometimes it is imperative to call a spade a spade. The government action in Nandigram was barbaric and uncalled for. The crisis in Nandigram is a manifestation of this same government's policy in the district West Bengal in the last few decades. West Bengal has no option. there is no other party which we can choose over the existing one (and believe me the nasty old BJP will take this very opening to come into Bengal in a big way). The chief minister is a goat (with due apologies to the animal), who believes that industrialization is informed by building shopping malls across a state which has yet to provide electricity and water to most of its parts. And who has a government full of people like the the jackass Biman Bose who might not have two coherent thoughts to rub together at any given time. I am ashamed to even associate these people with any kind of leftists thought. These are really not the kind of people you want to write 'friendly criticism, and open letters to'. And as for poor misguided Chomsky and Tariq Ali and friends who 'sought to introduce a political perspective to the anti-left agitation' it was no such thing. They chose to flap about a bit, no doubt misdirected by our highly suspect so-called-leftist intellectuals. There is no dearth of people with leftist ideology in possibly it's best and most progressive form in our country (thank god). But these are certainly not the the people who need to carry a badge which calls them 'The Left' or a bonafide party membership. And they are certainly not those sitting in the Politburo or Alimuddin Street. And really, the next bewildered academic who wants to write about Nandigram should please come a feel the pulse of the city for a change. Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > THE LEFT AND ITS "INTELLECTUAL" DETRACTORS > > PRABHAT PATNAIK > > With normalcy returning to Nandigram, and with the heat generated over it in > intellectual circles somewhat subsiding, it is time for us to ask the > question: why did so many intellectuals suddenly turn against the Party with > such amazing fury on this issue? > > This question is important because joining issue with them on the basis of > facts on the specificities of Nandigram, which is what we have been doing > till now, is not enough. It is not enough for instance to underscore the > fact, implicitly or explicitly denied by virtually all of them, that > thousands of poor people were driven out of their homes into refugee camps > for the only "crime" of being CPI(M) supporters; it is not enough to argue > against them that there was no semblance of an excuse for keeping Nandigram > out of bounds for these refugees and for the civil administration even after > the Left Front government had categorically declared that no chemical hub > would be built there; it is not enough to point out that the so-called > "re-occupation" of Nandigram in November was an act of desperation which > followed the failure of every other effort at restoring normalcy and > bringing the refugees back to their homes. All these facts and arguments > have been advanced at length, and are by now passé. But the phenomenon of > several intellectuals who till yesterday were with the Left in fighting > communal fascism but have now turned against it requires serious analysis. > > There is no gainsaying that the Left Front government made serious mistakes > in handling the Nandigram issue; and Buddhadeb Bhattacharya has said so in > as many words. But disagreement with the LF over this could have taken the > form of friendly criticism, articles, and open letters, and not of such > outright hostility that even put the LF on a par with communal fascism. > Likewise disagreements over the LF's industrialization policy could have > been aired in a manner that had none of the ferocity which has been recently > displayed. Differences with the LF, even basic differences, therefore cannot > suffice as an explanation of what we have just witnessed. > > Likewise, the fact that most of these intellectuals are in any case strongly > anti-organized Left, especially anti-Communist (and in particular > anti-CPI(M)), belonging as they do to the erstwhile "socialist" groups, to > NGOs, to the ranks of Naxalite sympathizers, to the community of "Free > Thinkers", and to various shades of "populism", would not suffice as an > explanation. After all, despite this basic hostility to the organized Left, > they did make common cause with it on several issues till recently. Why is > it suddenly so different now? > > The context clearly has changed. With the perceived decline in the strength > of the communal fascist forces, a certain fracturing of the anti-communal > coalition was inevitable and has happened, and this no doubt provides the > setting in which it becomes possible for these intellectuals to express in > the open the hostility which they might have felt all along against the > Left. Indeed, this perceived weakening of the BJP may even encourage > attempts, on the part of intellectuals hostile to the Left but aligned to it > earlier owing to the pressure of circumstances, at establishing a sort of > intellectual hegemony over society at large at the expense of the Left. But > while the recession of the communal fascist threat certainly creates the > condition for these intellectuals to come out openly against the Left, the > manner of their coming out cannot be explained only by this fact. It > indicates something more serious, namely the process of destruction of > politics that the phenomenon of globalization has unleashed. > > The crux of political praxis consists at any time in distinguishing between > two camps: the camp of the "people" and camp hostile to the interests of > "the people". This distinction in turn is based on an analysis of the > prevailing contradictions, and the identification of the principal > contradiction, on the basis of which the composition of the class alliance > that constitutes the camp of "the people" is determined. And corresponding > to this constellation of classes, there is a certain constellation of > political forces among whom relations have to be forged. It is obvious that > the relationship between the political forces representing the classes that > constitute the camp of the people at any time, and the nature of criticism > among these forces, must be different from the relationship and criticism > across camps. Not to distinguish between the camps, not to distinguish > between alternative constellations of political forces, but to club them > together on the basis of the identical nature of their presumed moral > trespasses, is to withdraw from politics. What is striking about the > attitude of the intellectuals arrayed against the organized Left at present > is their complete withdrawal from the realm of political praxis to a realm > of messianic moralism. > > Such messianic moralism is not just politically counter-productive. The > withdrawal from the realm of politics that it signifies, strengthens > politically the camp of the "enemies of the people". (In India for instance > the attack inspired by messianic moralism that has been launched on the > organized Left at a time when the latter is in the forefront of an extremely > crucial but difficult struggle against the attempt of imperialism to make > India its strategic ally, weakens that struggle, and thereby plays into the > hands of imperialism). But messianic moralism, quite apart from its palpable > political consequences, is smug, self-righteous, self-adulatory, and, above > all, empty. An attitude that does not distinguish between types of violence, > between the different episodes of violence, that condemns all violence with > equal abhorrence, that places on a footing of equality all presumed > perpetrators of violence, amounts in fact to a condemnation of nothing. To > say that all are equally bad is not even morally meaningful. > > This messianic moralism, this withdrawal from politics, is based > fundamentally on a disdain of politics, of the messy world of politics, > which is far from being peopled by angels. It constitutes therefore a mirror > image of the very phenomenon that it seeks to resist, namely the "cult of > development" spawned by neo-liberalism. Manmohan Singh says: politics is > filthy; rise above politics; detach "development" from politics. The > anti-Left intellectuals say: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach > the struggle against "development" from politics. > > This disdain for politics, this contempt for the political process, is what > characterizes substantial sections of the middle class in India today. It is > visible in the absolute opposition of the students of elite institutions to > the legislation on reservations passed unanimously by parliament. It is > visible in the persistent resort to the judicial process to overturn > decisions of legislatures, and the exhortations to the judiciary to act as a > body superior to the elected representatives of the people. This middle > class contempt for politics and politicians is apparent in the rise of > movements like "Youth For Equality" that make no secret of it and whose > avowed aim is to combat "affirmative action" which they consider to be the > handiwork of "opportunist" politicians. > > The rise of messianic moralism is a part of the same trend, which is nothing > else but a process of "destruction of politics". Middle class moralism > upholds causes, not programmes. It flits from cause to cause. And it > apotheosizes the absence of systematic political alliances. Some may call it > "post-modern politics", but it amounts to a negation of politics. > > Messianic moralism always has a seductive appeal for intellectuals. To avoid > systematic partisanship, to stand above the messy world of politics, to > pronounce judgements on issues from Olympian moral heights, and to be > applauded for one's presumed "non-partisanship", gives one a sense of both > comfort and fulfillment. This seductive appeal is heightened by the > contemporary ambience of middle class disdain for politics which the > phenomenon of globalization, subtly but assiduously, nurtures and promotes. > > The answer to the question with which we started, namely why have so many > intellectuals turned against the Left with such fury, lies to a significant > extent in the fact that this fury against the Left is also fed by a revolt > against politics. The revolt against the CPI(M) is simultaneously a revolt > against politics. The combination of anti-communism with a rejection of > politics in general gives this revolt that added edge, that special anger. > It is the anger of the morality of the "anti-political" against the morality > of the "political", for Communism, notwithstanding its substitution of the > "political" for the "moral", has nonetheless a moral appeal. The venom in > the anti-Left intellectuals' attack on the Left comes from the fact that > this struggle, of the "morality of the anti-political" against the "morality > of the political", takes on the character of a desperate last struggle, a > final push to destroy the latter, since "our day has come at last!". > > Ironically it was a group of US-based academics led by Noam Chomsky who > sought to introduce a political perspective to the anti-Left agitation of > the intellectuals on Nandigram. It is they who pointed out that in the > anti-imperialist struggle, which is the defining struggle of our times (the > struggle around the principal contradiction), the organized Left was an > essential component of the camp of the "people", and that nothing should be > done to disrupt the unity of the camp of the "people". But the response of > the anti-Left intellectuals to the injection of this political perspective > was a barrage of attacks on Chomsky et al for taking a "pro-CPI(M)" > position. A political position ipso facto was identified as a "pro-CPI(M)" > position. There could be no clearer proof of the proposition that the revolt > of the intellectuals against the Left was simultaneously a revolt against > politics, a disdain for politics that has become so prevalent a phenomenon > in the era of globalization that it affects as much the proponents of > globalization as its avowed critics. In fact these critics and the votaries > of imperialist globalization share in this respect the same terrain of > discourse. > > The hallmark of the organized Left lies precisely in the fact it rejects > this terrain of discourse, that it accords centrality to politics, that it > does not substitute an abstract Olympian moralism for concrete political > mobilization. It is for this reason therefore that the Left's attitude to > these intellectuals must be informed by politics; it cannot be a mirror > image of their attitude to the Left. > > Prabhat Patnaik > Professor, Centre for Economic Studies and Planning, Jawaharlal Nehru > University, New Delhi > Vice Chair, Planning Board, Government of Kerala From hpp at vsnl.com Thu Dec 13 12:20:54 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (hpp at vsnl.com) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:50:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik etc Message-ID: Dear Friends It was interesting to read the piece by Com Patnaik. In typical Communist fashion he does not heditate to resort immediately to all kinds of supposed idealogical analysis and justification, all kinds of gobbledy gook, about objective conditions, princoipal contradsictions etc. Its sad that the little boys pretending to paly big boy big boy have not grown up yet, that they have no objective overview of how pathetic all thissounds. It is the CPM which has abandoned politics, and embraced power. If Com Patnaik lived for long years in West Bengal, and saw what really happens here, at various levels, including most of all the living conditions of the workers, peasants and labouring poor of the state, then he too would feel only contempt and hostility for the party. Its very funny that he has to coin the term "messianic moralism", to oconceal the fact of the complete immorality of the party, and its moral degeneration as had been vividly described by Com Badal Bose, a year ago, while addressing Calcutta district committee cadre who had assembled to commemorate the November revolution in Russia. If the party had any space in the hearts and minds of the people, then that was principally because of the high "moral" standards associated with the party. With the degeneration of the party - as graphically evident in West Bengal - peole have only contempt and hostility for the party. So morality is now to be only for Olympians. While the cretinous CPM carries on unimpeded by any moral compunctions. Yes, the CPM is desperately trying to be at the forefront of the anti-imperial struggle - simply through the freak chance of being in a position to dictate terms at the centre. That self-assumed position is so much as variance with the reality of the party where it is in power. That ugly sordid reality is what the party basically is. But the Delhi-wallahs of the party want the party to have another image and entity, and at the national level, which is totally removed from their real strength on the ground, or in terms of ideology and practice. Its like the condition of a schizophrenic, who has delusions of grandeur, a pauper who stubbornly believes he is an emperor. Its the CPM which is under delusions of its messianic role! The lure and lust of power, the desire to feel powerful - Com Patnaik is a sad victim of this. A classic case of "Dilli ka laddu". It is CPM that has abandoned politics, while embracing power. Its self-professed anti-communal an pro-poor stance, and the reactionary, socially unjust mores of our society, allow the CPM ruse to flourish. The alienation of middle-class and well-educated and well-employed Indians from the common people of the land, has enabled the bankrupt and corrupt CPM to claim one-ness with the people. Those who work in the grassroots in West Bengal know how alienated the party really is from the people, their sufferings, their woes, through well-ensconced in power. In reality, as the experience in West Bengal has shown, the party is deeply commuanlised in West Bengal, the status of Muslims here is among the lowest in India; and cheerful deals abound with and gratifications from cowboy capitalists and corrupt developers, even as the labouring poor live in the most abysmal conditions. In its truck with power, it is the CPM that has become the mirror image of the enemy. In the final analysis, notwithstanding all the railing and bleating by Com Patnaik and others, the CPM cannot avoid facing the consequences of what it has wrought. And no one gives a damn for their pathetic posturing. They have talked about real-politics, and shown the way, at Nandigram. They will have to face the same now. V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Thu Dec 13 19:58:01 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:28:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] ABV - Poetry in slow motion Message-ID: <935312.64263.qm@web8407.mail.in.yahoo.com> Poetry in slow motion He's the invisible force of Indian politics. Former prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee has been incommunicado--the uncharitable say, in a coma--for some months now and his current condition is a mystery that Sherlock would be hard put to solve. Only his doctor and a few close party colleagues know exactly what the state of his health is, though there is little credence given to rumours that he has been struck speechless by the state of his party and politics in general. Whatever the state of his health, we miss his homilies, those long pauses and, of course, the poetry that everybody tried to analyse. Last week, some BJP bigwigs went to his residence for advice on burning issues of the day. Here's how it went: First BJP bigwig: Vajpayeeji, we need your advice, please nod if you mean yes. Second BJP bigwig: He's been nodding ever since we walked in, how do we know the difference? Third BJP bigwig: Never mind, a nod is as good as a wink. First BJP bigwig: Yes, but he's caught a lot of winks as well in the last few months. Vajpayeeji, how do we handle the nuclear debate in Parliament? Second BJP bigwig: (After waiting an hour for a response) There, his knee jerked, did you see it? Third BJP bigwig: Does that mean, our response so far has been a knee-jerk one? Third BJP bigwig: Vajpayeeji, if you can hear us, give us a sign that you approve of the stand we are taking. First BJP bigwig: Look, his thumb is pointing downward, that means he doesn't approve. Second BJP bigwig: It's been like that since we arrived. How do we get him to give us a sign? Third BJP bigwig: I know, we'll ask him to write a poem, just a few lines, give him a pen and paper. (hands over a pad and pen). First BJP bigwig: Look, he's starting to write, it's a squiggle, but he's writing something. Second BJP bigwig: How do we know what it is? Third BJP bigwig: Let's ask his attendant, he should be able to decipher it. Attendant, can you tell us what Vajpayeeji has written? Attendant: (Looks at the pad). Yes, I can make out what he writes. Bigwigs: Fantastic, we finally have a sign. What does it say? Attendant: (wearily) It's the same line he writes every afternoon. Bigwigs: But what does it say? Is it something profound, something deep and weighty? Attendant: Yes, it certainly is all of that. It's his lunch order and it's the same thing every day, rice and deep-fried prawn. Bigwigs emerge from the house and meet the press. Reporters: How did your meeting with Vajpayee go, did he give you any advice? First bigwig: Yes, he gave us plenty of food for thought. Second bigwig: (wearily) Actually, it was the other way around. from: http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in?option=com_myblog&show=Poetry-in-slow-motion.html&contentid=2336 Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have it on http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From amitabh at sarai.net Wed Dec 12 19:39:22 2007 From: amitabh at sarai.net (Amitabh Kumar) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:39:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Documentary and Reportage in Comics: Fourth Comic Book Reading by Sarnath Banerjee Message-ID: Sarai-CSDS and the FIRC ( French Information Resource Center) are pleased to announce the 4th Comic Book Reading, ' Modern Heresies' by Sarnath Banerjee. The roots of the Comic Book form can be traced back to the 16th century 'execution' posters in England. Subsequently , it went on to grow into other such forms of reportage and advertising. These include the event reportage and illustrations used in the dailies (much before the half penny revolution) such as the police eyewitness accounts and the war diaries. This was how comics were born. Humour and Adventure / Fantasia later became styles/genres that defined the form. Blinding all other genres. Outside of the well-worn path of biography and autobiography,non-fiction has traditionally been one of the most frustratingly under-developed areas of the comics medium.In our times too Graphical Reportage and Documentary Comics to some is an oxymoron, as if comics and documentation in Graphical Reportage cancel each other out. We intend to question that. Sarnath Banerjee will be talking about reportage comics and comics that have been used as a tool for socio-political commentary and ethnography. Date: 15th December Time: 5: 30 p.m. Venue: Seminar Hall, 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines, Delhi. Sarai, unlike the urban legend floating around, is not between Pluto and Jupiter. There are very simple ways to reach Sarai. We are located in the Civil Lines area in North Delhi, close to Delhi University. You have to cross the ridge from Delhi University to get to Rajpur Road, where Sarai is located. Any bus that takes you to 'Exchange Stores/ I.P. College/ Mall Road' will also take you places from where Rajpur Road is a short distance. If you take an auto rickshaw or taxi from South Delhi or any other part of the city, the best thing to say is 'Near Transport Authority, Underhill Road, Civil Lines, I.P. College'; most auto and taxi drivers know the Civil Lines 'Authority' well. We are two minutes away from this landmark. The quickest and easiest way to get to Sarai is to take the Delhi Metro, from Connaught Place (Rajiv Chowk) to Civil Lines, or to change at Kashmiri Gate and take the metro to Civil Lines. Get off at Civil Lines cross Shamnath Marg, get on to Underhill Road, walk (10 minutes) to the end of Underhill Road, where it meets Rajpur Road. Turn left, you will see Number 29, Rajpur Road soon (on your left). This is CSDS. Walk in, we are in the basement of the big white building behind the sunken lawn. (for details check: http://www.sarai.net/about-us/contact ) All are welcome!!! -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Dec 13 23:54:21 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:54:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Aditya Nigam responds to Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Message-ID: <6dacf6d07f49eec2b3209d1c1f1e9b4a@sarai.net> Dear all, Here is another response to the article by Prabhat Patnaik identifying the opposition to the CPI(M) on Nandigram as 'enemies of the people'. This should be of interest to those following the Nandigram debate. This response is by Aditya Nigam and was first published on Kafila.org best Shuddha ------------------- But Prabhat Patnaik is an Honourable Man by Aditya Nigam This piece could be read as a letter addressed to one of my former, esteemed, ideologue-theoreticians. As young students in the 1970s and 1980s, we often went to listen, starry-eyed, to this soft-spoken theorist expound on what we thought were complex issues of our times and come back mesmerized. Yes, Prof Prabhat Patnaik (PP) was one of our idols. Today he fell and smashed himself. And then something strange happened: the broken pieces rearranged themselves to reveal a frightful other face - the face of comrade stalin. Since Patnaik has referred to all critics of the CPM as “anti-Left intellectuals”, and has also specifically referred to the letter signed by some of us (including me), I think it would not be wrong to assume that the entire article is also addressed, among thousands of others, to me (though I may be pardoned for assuming that a nacheez like me should even exist on his radar!). Since all those who had signed the statement may have their own responses to PP – and some might not legitimately wish to stoop to the level this once-saintly figure has – I must speak for myself here. Sometime ago, former West Bengal finance minister and marxist economist Ashok Mitra had written a piece on the happenings in Nandigram. It appeared in Ananda Bazar Patrika and was subsequently translated into English and widely circulated. In that piece, Mitra had suggested “prominent economist and party comrade of the stature of Prabhat Patnaik is hounded” by the party leadership in Alimuddin Street. In a way, we sort of knew it; rather hoped it would be true. An intellectual like Prof Patnaik cannot possibly be a cog in the stalinist machine, even though he may have stepped in to sign dubious statements not so long ago. We had assumed that given the political history of stalinist Marxism with intellectuals who were maligned, denigrated, humiliated and finally put before the firing squad, Patnaik had made his ‘existential choice’ a la Georg Lukacs. Lukacs, one of the most brilliant philosophical minds, decided to remain in the ranks (the ‘camp of the people’, in Patnaik’s words) and become the voice of stalinism for decades thereafter. Need we recall the whole list of such people - intellectuals - who were thus repeatedly been destroyed? And do we need to tell you that so far only fascism or Nazism has been able to compete with the communist record. We naively expected this even after we knew that years ago, Comrade Patnaik and his CESP comrades had celebrated the infamous August 1991 coup d’ `etat in the then USSR that briefly deposed Mikhail Gorbachev. Patnaik’s recent article, doing the rounds on email and list-serves is of a piece with that forgotten Patnaik. For, he describes all critics of the CPM, including the signatories of the letter as “in any case strongly anti-organized Left, especially anti-Communist (and in particular anti-CPM), belonging as the do to the erstwhile ‘socialist’ groups, to NGOs, to the ranks of Naxalite sympathizers, to the community of ‘Free Thinkers’, and to various shades of ‘populism’”. Despite his sympathies for Patnaik (’who is being hounded’), Ashok Mitra too has forfeited the friendship or respect of the latter. For, has not Mitra too committed blasphemy by doing what PP has accused all of us of? Listen to Mitra before we proceed. He says: “Till death I would remain guilty to my conscience if I keep mum about the happenings of the last two weeks in West Bengal over Nandigram. One gets torn by pain too. Those against whom I am speaking have been my comrades at some time. The party whose leadership they are adorning has been the centre of my dreams and works for last sixty years.” My purpose here is not to contest the factual claims made by Prof Patnaik. Rather, I would like to examine some of his more revealing statements and theoretical propositions. PP starts his article with a certain touching innocence: “why have these people turned against us?”, he asks. After all, he tells his party readers, “they may have been anticommunist, anti-CPM, Naxalites, NGO-ites,” “but they did make common cause with us till recently.” “Why is it suddenly so different now?” This is truly touching because it shows the make-believe world that Communists live in, where they cannot understand that elementary fact of change. It suddenly reminded me of another ’sad’ incident narrated by Slavoj Zizek. It goes like this: In Romania, the magical spell of ‘communism’ was broken quite dramatically, says Zizek. After the demonstrations in Timisoara against the government, in order to prove that he still enjoyed popular support Ceausescu convened a mass rally in Bucharest. “The crowd started to shout at Ceausescu, who then raised his hands in a tragicomic and bewildered display of impotent paternal love, as if wanting to embrace them all.” Little did he believe that this was the beginning of his end. To this day, there are people who believe that the collapse of socialism was an imperialist conspiracy and look back longingly at the 1991 coup as a last ray of hope that vanished thanks to the CIA! Interestingly, one of the characteristics of the stalinist method is deployed by Patnaik to brilliant effect. It should be underlined here: After asking why is it that ‘even’ somewhat sensible people (if they made common cause with you at some point, they must be at least partly sensible) have turned against us, you do not ask what ordinary mortals might. You do not ask, “did we do something wrong?” After all what have we done to lose the trust of our own supporters? There are communist, indeed CPM supporters also among those are today criticizing us. That is foreign to the stalinist mind. On the contrary, you ask: what is it with them that they have turned against us? Something must be cooking? Have they been bribed by Satan? Has Imperialism been upto some tricks? Surely some Conspiracy must be underway…. But just to set the record straight for PP and his comrades. Yes, we did make common cause with your party. We made every attempt in every possible way to stay together and work on issues of common concern. At every stage people had to deal with the antics of your comrades who believed that they had the contract or better, the Divine Right of being the Vanguard of History, who therefore believed that for this reason nothing should happen except under their leadership. There are ridiculous but frustrating stories like this huge joint demonstration in Bangalore a couple of years ago, where participants discovered to their horror, on reaching the maidan that the stage had been set up and captured by the CPM. The venue was decorated with CPM flags and the entire control was in their hands. We have innumerable such instances from every part of the country. Or take the antiwar demonstrations in Delhi. Some of the largest joint rallies were held after the US attack on Afghanistan. But then, the CPM suddenly woke up and by the time of the attack on Iraq, your party decided to ‘take over’. It did. The fledgling joint movement was split. Finally there rallies ‘under your leadership’ where your comrades treated us, hapless participants to the outpourings of a Joginder Sharma (don’t ask us who he is!) and such others. The result was that in subsequent year, when there were coordinated global demonstrations against the War on Iraq, there were pathetic, CPM demos in Delhi and many other places. People gradually dropped out. The list is really long and begins right at the time of the most vicious manifestation of the Hindutva threat: the day after the demolition of the Babri Masjid. Hundreds of people had assembled at the Vithalbhai Patel House lawns. Ask your comrades what happened that day - that shameful day. Even on that day, the CPM refused to hold a joint programme on an equal basis. Senior citizens like Rajni Kothari were not allowed to speak. In full public view, the then state secretary of the CPM told the police, pointing to another small group of CPI(ML) Liberation activists, that “they are not part of our demonstration.” The police proceeded to cordon them off. A few hundred of us came back and were forced to hold another meeting. That was when the People’s Movement for Secularism (PMS) was born. Some day, all this history will have to be written and it will stink, professor Patnaik. And just to set the record further straight, all this (except for the PMS story) was WHILE THE BJP-NDA WAS STILL IN POWER. Some day, the history of organizations and coalitions like the CNDP will be written and the goings on about how the World Social Forum process came to be captured by the CPM to the point of making it meaningless will have to be uncovered. Dear Prof Patnaik, you are quite fond of claiming a radical and ‘political’ mantle for yourself, but if you had spent just one day trying to organize the joint struggles that you nostalgically look back at, you would realize how out of tune you sound to everybody but your vanguard comrades. So, let us take the theoretical propositions and charges, one by one. PP explains his – and his comrades’ bewilderment – by making an assertion: The coming out of these “anti-Left” intellectuals “openly against the Left” can only be explained with reference to the process of destruction of politics that the phenomenon of globalization has unleashed. There is no argument. Only further assertions to the effect that: “The anti-Left intellectuals say: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach the struggle against ‘development’ from politics.” Who precisely said this, Professor Patnaik? And where? Any references? The constant refrain here is ‘Politics’ that is repeated like a mantra along with “Left” and counterposed to “anti-politics” and “anti-Left”. So what is this politics? If you try to sift through the definitional web of assertions, you will be able to isolate two ideas: (1) The Left is something given; some people are born with into it. Else, they have to be certified by the Church or some favoured appointees. THEY do not have to prove anything. Others are by definition, anti-Left. (2) This idea is related to the idea that POLITICS is about two camps: ‘the camp of the people’ and the camp of the ‘enemies of the people’ (those hostile etc). Now since the Left is, by definition, in the camp of the people (remember the contract?), anybody else can only be against the ‘people’, and the Left and therefore, antipolitical. Quite apart from the fact that Prof Patnaik, that mesmerizing ideologue-theoretician of yore, does not seem to have read anything about any movement since the Cuban revolution, his views on politics actually make one squirm. Did he remember, by the way, that the Cuban revolution was made against the hated Batista regime that was supported by the Communist Party? Is he aware that the new left wing formations that have arisen all across the South American continent, movements that his party does not cease to invoke in its support, are all movements that arisen on the debris of old-style communist politics? From the Zapatistas to the Movement for Socialism of Evo Morales, the Workers’ Party of Brazill, or the Bolivarian revolution of Chavez - all of them, despite their limitations, have managed to make any kind of headway by breaking with that old politics. We could actually go on, both from the history of Marxism and from the more recent history of anti-globalization struggles to show how the idea of ‘politics’ being enunciated by Prof Patnaik is at least three decades old. This is not the place for a discussion of those movements but we invite Prof Patnaik – or any of this other comrades to an open debate on this in any neutral ground of his choosing. In any case, apropos of this idea of a world divided into two camps, my point, for the time being, is simply this: By your definition, esteemed professor, neither feminism, nor the Dalit movement nor the sexuality and ecological struggles qualify for either the category ‘political’ or ‘radical’. (By the way, what is their ‘principal contradiction’, and why should they care about yours?). Now, I can almost hear shocked marxists exclaim, “of course! Class is the Real Thing, the Principal Contradiction”. So for these marxist comrades, let me just remind them that in the meantime, your own class is rapidly rejecting you - if there was any doubt, in the first place, that is. The CITU has come down even below the AITUC in terms of working class membership - a steady decline over the years. On the other hand, the Left has lost the first ever secret ballot in the railway unions. The people, indeed the ‘working class’ too, rejects ‘Politics’! They need your political catechism Prof Patnaik, sorely. Or else, it is time you should think whose vanguard you want to be. One more word about the ‘two camps’ notion of politics: Was NATO right in bombarding Serbia and Milosevic? Especially considering, that a veritable process of ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Muslims had been going on under his leadership? We all participated in antiwar demonstrations against the NATO but would your two-camp notion of politics say that all those Leftists who saw Milosevic as the most immediate danger, were anti-political, anti-Left? And what about those who were being eliminated? They were being silly in welcoming the NATO bombs? Anti-political “messianic moralism”? They should have written friendly petitions to Milosevic, or open letters? Why were they becoming accomplices of imperialism? And what about the Kurdish people killed in a virtual genocide by the anti-imperialist Saddam Hussain? Does an opposition to the US attack on Iraq mean that all criticism and even strident criticism of such ‘anti-imperialism’ be suppressed? Finally, Prof PP says, “this attack inspired by messianic moralism has been launched when the latter [the Left] is in the forefront of an extremely crucial but difficult struggle against the attempt of imperialism to make India its strategic ally.” Well, if you really wish to break the possibility, take a leaf out of the book of Brazil or South Africa and take a unilateral position in favour of abandoning the nuclear programme, which is indefensible in every possible way. Everything else is hot air. From babuubab at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 23:23:53 2007 From: babuubab at gmail.com (Babu Sundara) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 23:23:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956 - Legal Document No 140 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712052256t5e728a6cu804e0626dc46b174@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0712052245w34827defg5024615bce1465c4@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712052250w58232c42wdf6452400bd62734@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0712052252i123d9057j767dafbc79c5c38a@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712052256t5e728a6cu804e0626dc46b174@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <66ec95310712080953p2d2756bdn6c88c94970687b7b@mail.gmail.com> Hi. To add to the discussion, these so called facts or "facts" loose its relevance and becomes a great joke, if we are aware of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act 1958 and Public Safety Act in J&K. regard, sundara babu On 06/12/2007, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Aarti Ji , > > I never said that you in particular are ignorant of these facts . You are > highly intelligent and knowledgable . And I am sure there would be few who > would be ignorant about these facts. > > Maybe ,many of them who do not live in India. > > regards > > Pawan > > > On 12/6/07, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > > > And which "facts" does this extract present us with which you claim we > are > > in ignorance of? Even more interesting, what makes them "facts"? It > might be > > fruitful to spend some time thinking about the latter... > > > > On Dec 6, 2007 12:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Dear Aarti , > > > > > > Sometimes I feel the readers should be fed with some intresting facts > > > which are otherwise ignored. > > > > > > Pawan > > > Was your mail intended for me or the group ? > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/6/07, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > Fascinating. But exactly what is this in aid of? > > > > > > > > best > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 4, 2007 11:42 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > > > > > > *The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956* > > > > > Legal Document No 140 > > > > > *(Extract)* > > > > > > > > > > We, the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having solemnly > > > > > resolved, > > > > > in pursuance of accession of this State to > > > > > India which took place on the twenty-sixth day of October, 1947, > to > > > > > further > > > > > define the existing relationship of the State with the Union of > > > > > India as an > > > > > integral part thereof, and to secure to ourselves. > > > > > > > > > > *JUSTICE*, social, economic and political; > > > > > *LIBERTY* of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > > > EQUALITY of > > > > > status and of opportunity; and to promote among us all; > > > > > *FRATERNITY*, assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity > > > > > of the > > > > > Nation; > > > > > > > > > > *IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY* This seventeenth day of November, > 1956 > > > > > do > > > > > Hereby Adopt Enact and Give to ourselves this constitution. > > > > > > > > > > *PART I* > > > > > *PRELIMINARY* > > > > > > > > > > 1. (1) this Constitution may be called the Constitution of Jammu > and > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir. > > > > > > > > > > (2) This section and sections 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 158 shall come > > > > > into force > > > > > et once and the remaining provisions of this constitution shall > come > > > > > into > > > > > force on the twenty-sixth day of January, 1957, which day is > > > > > referred to in > > > > > this Constitution as the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > 2. (I) In this Constitution, unless the context other-wise > > > > > requires. > > > > > > > > > > (a) "Constitution of India" means the Constitu-tion of India as > > > > > applicable > > > > > in relation to this State. > > > > > > > > > > (b) "existing law" means any law, ordinance, order bye-law, rule > > > > > notification; or regulation based, made or issued before the > > > > > commence-ment > > > > > of this Constitution by the Legislature or other competent > authority > > > > > or > > > > > person hav-ing power to pass. make or issue such law, ordinance, > > > > > order > > > > > bye-law rule, notification or regulation; > > > > > > > > > > (c) "Part" means a part of this Constitution; > > > > > > > > > > (d) "Schedule" means a schedule to this Constitution; and > > > > > > > > > > (e) "taxation" includes the imposition of any tax or impost, > whether > > > > > general > > > > > or local or special, and "tax" shall be construed accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Any reference in this Constitution to Acts or laws of the > State > > > > > Legislature shall be construed as in-cluding a reference to an > > > > > Ordianance > > > > > made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > *PART II* > > > > > *THE STATE* > > > > > > > > > > (3) The State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral > part > > > > > of the > > > > > Union of India. > > > > > > > > > > (4) The territory of the State shall comprise all the territories > > > > > which on > > > > > the fifteenth day of August, 1947, were under the sovereignty or > > > > > suzerainty > > > > > of the Ruler of the State. > > > > > > > > > > (5) The executive and legislative power of the State extends to > all > > > > > matters > > > > > except those with respect to which Parliament has power to make > laws > > > > > for the > > > > > State under the provisions of the Constitution of India. > > > > > > > > > > *PART III* > > > > > *PERMANENT RESIDENTS* > > > > > > > > > > (6) (l) Every person who is, or is deemed to be, a citizen of > India > > > > > under > > > > > the provisions of the Constitution of India shall be a permanent > > > > > resident of > > > > > the State, if on the fourteenth day of May, 1954. > > > > > > > > > > (a) he was a State subject of class I or of class II: or > > > > > > > > > > (b) having lawfully acquired immovable pro-perty in the State, he > > > > > has been > > > > > ordinarily resident in the State for not less than ten years prior > > > > > to that > > > > > date. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Any person who, before the fourteenth day of May, 1954 was a > > > > > State > > > > > subject of Class I or of Class II and who, having migrated after > the > > > > > first > > > > > day of March, 1947, to the territory -now included in Pakistan, > > > > > returns to > > > > > the State under a permit for resettlement in the State or for > > > > > permanent > > > > > return issued by or under the authority of any law made by the > State > > > > > > > > > > Legislature shall on such return be a permanent resident of the > > > > > State. > > > > > > > > > > (3) In this section, the expression "State subject of Class I or > of > > > > > Class > > > > > II" shall have the same -meaning as the State Notification No > I-L/84 > > > > > dated > > > > > the twentieth April. '1927, read with State Notification No 13/L > > > > > dated the > > > > > twenty- seventh June, 1932. > > > > > > > > > > 7. Unless the context otherwise requires, all referen-ces in any > > > > > existing > > > > > law to hereditary State subject or to State subject of class I or > of > > > > > Class > > > > > II or of class III shall be construed as references to perma-nent > > > > > residents > > > > > of the State. > > > > > > > > > > 8. Nothing in foregoing provisions of this part shall derogate > from > > > > > the > > > > > power of the State legislature to make any law defining the > classes > > > > > the > > > > > persons who are, or shall be permanent residents of the State. > > > > > > > > > > 9. A Bill marking provision for any of the following matters, > > > > > namely. > > > > > > > > > > (a) defining or altering the definition of, the classes of persons > > > > > who are, > > > > > or shall be, per-manent residents of the State; > > > > > > > > > > (b) conferring on permanent residents any special rights or > > > > > privileges; > > > > > > > > > > (c) regulating or modifying any special rights or privileges > enjoyed > > > > > by > > > > > permanent residents; > > > > > shall be deemed to be passed by either House of the Legislature > only > > > > > if It > > > > > is passed by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total > > > > > membership > > > > > of that House. > > > > > > > > > > 10. The permanent residents of the State shall have all the rights > > > > > guaranteed to them under the Constitution of India. > > > > > > > > > > *PART IV* > > > > > *DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF STATE POLICY* > > > > > > > > > > 11. In this part, unless the context otherwise requires, the State > > > > > includes > > > > > the Government and the Legis-lature of the State and all local or > > > > > other > > > > > authori-ties within the territory of the State or under the > control > > > > > of the > > > > > Government of the State. > > > > > > > > > > 12. The provisions contained in this Part shall not be enforceable > > > > > by any > > > > > court, but the principles therein laid down are nevertheless > > > > > fundamental in > > > > > the governance of the State and it shall be the duty of the State > to > > > > > apply > > > > > these principles in making laws. > > > > > > > > > > 13. The prime object of the State consistent with the ideals and > > > > > objectives > > > > > of the freedom movement envisaged in "New Kashmir" shall be the > > > > > pro-motion > > > > > of the welfare of the mass of the people by establishing and > > > > > preserving a > > > > > socialist order of society wherein all exploitation of man has > been > > > > > abolished and wherein justice-social, economic and political-shall > > > > > inform > > > > > all the institutions of natio-nal life. > > > > > > > > > > 14. Consistently with the objectives outlined in the foregoing > > > > > section, the > > > > > State shall develop in a planed manner the productive forces of > the > > > > > coun-try > > > > > with a view to enriching the material and cul-tural life of the > > > > > people and > > > > > foster and protect. > > > > > > > > > > (a) the public sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by > > > > > the State; > > > > > > > > > > (b) the co-operative sector where the means of > > > > > production are co-operatively owned by indi-viduals or groups of > > > > > individuals; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) the private sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by > > > > > an > > > > > individual or a corpora-tion employing labour, provided that the > > > > > operation > > > > > of this sector is not allowed to result in the concentration of > > > > > wealth or of > > > > > the means of production to the common detriment. > > > > > > > > > > 15. The State shall endeavour to organise and develop agriculture > > > > > and animal > > > > > husbandry by bringing to the aid of the cultivator tile benefits > of > > > > > modern > > > > > and scientific research and techniques so as to ensure a speedy > > > > > improvement > > > > > in the standard of living as also the prosperity of the rural > > > > > masses. > > > > > > > > > > 16. The State shall take steps to organise village panchayats and > > > > > endow them > > > > > with such powers and authority as may be necessary to enable them > to > > > > > > > > > > function as units of self-government. > > > > > > > > > > 17. The State shall, in order to rehabilitate, guide and promote > the > > > > > renowned crafts and cottage indus-tries of the State, initiate and > > > > > execute > > > > > well consi-dered programmes for refining and modernising > techniques > > > > > and > > > > > modes of production, including the employment of cheap power so > that > > > > > unnece-ssary drudgery and toil of the workers are elimi-nated and > > > > > the > > > > > artistic value of the products en-hanced, while Else fullest scope > > > > > is > > > > > provided for the encouragement and development of individual > talent > > > > > and > > > > > initiative. > > > > > > > > > > 18. The State shall lake steps to separate the judiciary from the > > > > > executive > > > > > in the public-services, and shall seek to secure a judicial system > > > > > which is > > > > > humane, cheap, certain, objective and impartial, whereby justice > > > > > shall be > > > > > done and shall be seen to be done and shall further strive to > ensure > > > > > > > > > > efficiency, im-partiality and incorruptibility of its various > organs > > > > > of > > > > > justice, administration and public utility. > > > > > > > > > > 19. The State shall, within the limits of its economic capacity > and > > > > > development, make effective provi-sion for securing: > > > > > > > > > > (a) that all permanent residents, man and women equally, have the > > > > > right to > > > > > work, that is, the right to receive guaranteed work with pay-ment > > > > > for labour > > > > > in accordance with its quan-tity and quality subject to a basic > > > > > minimum and > > > > > maximum wage established by law; > > > > > > > > > > (b) that the health and strength of workers, men and women and the > > > > > tender > > > > > age of children are not abused and that permanent residents are > not > > > > > forced > > > > > by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, > age > > > > > or > > > > > strength; > > > > > > > > > > (c) that all workers, agricultural or otherwise have > reasonable, > > > > > just and > > > > > humane conditions of work with full enjoyment of leisure and > social > > > > > and > > > > > cultural opportunities, and > > > > > > > > > > (d) that all permanent residents have adequate maintenance in old > > > > > age as > > > > > well as in the event of sickness, disablement unemployment and > other > > > > > cases > > > > > of undeserved want by providing social insurance, medical aid, > > > > > hospitals, > > > > > sana-toria and health resorts at State expense. > > > > > > > > > > 20. The State shall endeavour: > > > > > > > > > > (a) to secure to every permanent resident the right to free > > > > > education upto > > > > > the University standard; > > > > > > > > > > (b) to provide, within a period often years from the commencement > of > > > > > this > > > > > constitution, com-pulsory education for all children until they > > > > > complete the > > > > > age of fourteen years; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) to ensure to all workers and employees ade-quate facilities > for > > > > > adult > > > > > education and part -time technical, professional and vocational > > > > > courses. > > > > > > > > > > 21. The State shall strive to secure: > > > > > > > > > > (a) to all children the right to happy childhood with adequate > > > > > medical care > > > > > and attention; and > > > > > > > > > > (b) to all children and youth equal opportunities in education and > > > > > employment, protection against exploitation, and against moral or > > > > > material > > > > > abandonment. > > > > > > > > > > 22. The State shall endeavour to secure to all women: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the right to equal pay for equal work; > > > > > > > > > > (b) the right to maternity benefits as well as ade-quate medical > > > > > care in all > > > > > employments; > > > > > > > > > > (c) the right reasonable maintenance, extending to cases of > married > > > > > women > > > > > who have been divorced or abandoned; > > > > > > > > > > (d) the right to full equality in all social, educa-tional, > > > > > political and > > > > > legal matters; and > > > > > > > > > > (e) special protection against discourtesy, defama-tion, > hoolganism > > > > > and > > > > > other forms of miscon-duct. > > > > > > > > > > 23. The State shall guarantee to the socially and edu-cationally > > > > > backward > > > > > sections of the people special care in the promotion of their > > > > > educational, > > > > > mate rial and cultural interests and protection against social > > > > > injustice. > > > > > > > > > > 24. The State shall make every effort to safeguard and promote the > > > > > health of > > > > > the people by advancing public hygiene and by prevention of > disease > > > > > through > > > > > sanitation, pest and vermin control, propaganda and other > measures, > > > > > and by > > > > > ensuring widespread, efficient and free medical services > throughout > > > > > the > > > > > State and, with particular emphasis, in its remote and backward > > > > > regions. > > > > > > > > > > 25. The State shall combat ignorance, superstition, fanaticism, > > > > > communialism, racialism, cultural > > > > > backwardness and shall seek to foster brotherhood and equality > among > > > > > all > > > > > communities under the aegis of a secular State. > > > > > > > > > > *PART V* > > > > > *THE EXECUTIVE* > > > > > *THE SADAR-I-RIYASAT* > > > > > > > > > > 26. (1) The Head of the State shall be designated as the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The executive power of the State shall be vested in the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > and shall be exercised by him either directly or through officers > > > > > subordinate to him in accordance with this Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Nothing in this Section shall: > > > > > > > > > > (a) be deemed to transfer to the Sadar-i--Riyasat any functions > > > > > conferred by > > > > > any existing law on any other authority; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) prevent the State legislature from confer-ring by law > functions > > > > > on any > > > > > authority subordinate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > 27. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be the person who for the time being > > > > > is > > > > > recognised by the President as such: > > > > > Provided that no person shall be so recognised unless he: > > > > > > > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the state; > > > > > (b) is not less than twenty-five years of age; and > > > > > (c) has been elected as Sadar-i-Riyasat by a majority of the total > > > > > membership of the Legislative Assembly in the manner set out in > the > > > > > First > > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > 28. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office during the pleasure > of > > > > > the > > > > > President. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may, be writing under his hand addressed > to > > > > > the > > > > > President, resign his office. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Subject to the foregoing provision of this section, the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > shall hold office for a term of five years from the date on which > he > > > > > enters > > > > > upon his office: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that he shall notwithstanding the expiration of his term, > > > > > continue > > > > > to hold office until his successor enters upon his offlee. > > > > > > > > > > 29. A person who holds or has held office as Sadar-i-Riyasat > shall, > > > > > subject > > > > > to the other provisions of this Constitution, be eligible for > > > > > reselection to > > > > > that office. > > > > > > > > > > 30. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be a member of either House > of > > > > > Legislature and if a member of either House be elected and > > > > > recognised as > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, he shall be deemed to have vacated his seat in > the > > > > > House on > > > > > the date on which he enters upon his office as Sadar-I-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not hold any other office of profit. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be entitled to such emoluments, > > > > > allowances and > > > > > privileges as are specified in the second schedule. > > > > > > > > > > (4) The emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not > > > > > be > > > > > diminished during his term of office. > > > > > > > > > > 31. The Sadar-i-Riyasat and every person acting as Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > shall, > > > > > before entering upon his office, make and subscribe in the > presence > > > > > of the > > > > > Chief Justice of the High Court, or in his absence, the > senior-most > > > > > judge of > > > > > the High Court available, in an oath or affirmation in the > following > > > > > form > > > > > that is to sayed "I, A. B., do swear in the name of God that I > will > > > > > faithfully discharge the functions of the Sadar-I-Riyasat of Jammu > > > > > and > > > > > Kashmir and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect and > > > > > defend the > > > > > Constitution and the law and that I will devote myself to the > > > > > service and > > > > > well being of the people of State." > > > > > > > > > > 32. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be removed from his office by the > > > > > President if > > > > > an address by the Legis-lative Assembly supported by a majority of > > > > > not less > > > > > than two-thirds of its total membership is presented to the > > > > > president > > > > > praying for such removal on the ground of violation of the > > > > > Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > 33. When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by > > > > > reason of > > > > > his death, resignation or removal or when the Sadar-i-Riyasat is > > > > > unable to > > > > > discharge his functions owing to absence, illness or or any other > > > > > cause, the > > > > > functions of the office shall, until the assumption of office by a > > > > > newly > > > > > elected Sadar-i-Riyasat or the resumption of duties by the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > > as the case may be, dis-charged by such person as the President > may > > > > > on the > > > > > recommendation of the Council of Ministers of the State, recognise > > > > > as the > > > > > acting Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > 34. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall have the power to grant pardons, > > > > > reprieves, > > > > > respites or remissions of punish-ment or to suspend, remit or > > > > > commute the > > > > > sentence of any person convicted of any offense against any law > > > > > relating to > > > > > a matter to which the executive power of the State extends. > > > > > > > > > > *THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS* > > > > > > > > > > 35. (1) There shall be a council of Ministers with the Prime > > > > > Minister at the > > > > > head to aid and advise the Sadar-i-Riyasat in the exercise of his > > > > > functions. > > > > > > > > > > All functions of the Sadar-i-Riyasat except those under sections > 36, > > > > > 38 and > > > > > 92 shall be exercised by him only on the advice of the Council of > > > > > Ministers. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The question whether any, and if so what, advice was tendered > by > > > > > Ministers to the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be inquired into in any > > > > > court. > > > > > > > > > > 36. The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat > and > > > > > the > > > > > other Ministers shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the > > > > > advice of > > > > > The Prime Minister. > > > > > > > > > > 37. (1) The Council of Ministers shall be collectively responsible > > > > > to the > > > > > Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > (2) A Minister who for any period of six conse-cutive months is > not > > > > > a member > > > > > of either House of Legislature shall upon the expiry of that > period > > > > > cease to > > > > > be a Minister. > > > > > > > > > > 38. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may on the advice of the Prime Minister > > > > > appoint from > > > > > amongst the members of either House of Legislature such number of > > > > > Deputy > > > > > Ministers as may be necessary. > > > > > > > > > > 39. The Ministers and the [Deputy Ministers shall hold office > during > > > > > the > > > > > pleasure of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > 40. Before a Minister or a Deputy Minister enters upon lids > office, > > > > > the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or, in his absence, any person authorised by him, > > > > > shall > > > > > administer to the Minister or the Deputy Minister to oaths of > office > > > > > and of > > > > > secrecy according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > 41. The salaries and allowances of Ministers and Deputy Ministers > > > > > shall be > > > > > such as the Legislature relay from time to time by law determine > > > > > and, until > > > > > so determined, shall be such as are payable respectively to the > > > > > Ministers > > > > > and the Deputy Ministers under the Jammu and Kashmir Minister s > > > > > Salaries > > > > > Act, 1956 (Act VI of 1956) the Jammu and Kashmir Minister's > > > > > Travelling > > > > > Allowances Rules for the time being in force, and the Jaminu and > > > > > Kashmir > > > > > Deputy Ministers Salaries and Allowances Act. S. 2010 (Act VIII of > > > > > S.2010) > > > > > > > > > > *THE ADVOCATE GENERAL* > > > > > > > > > > 42. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall appoint a person who is > qualified > > > > > to be > > > > > appointed a Judge of the High Court, to be Advocate General for > the > > > > > State. > > > > > > > > > > (2) It shall be the duty of the Advocate General to give advice to > > > > > the > > > > > Government upon such legal matters and to perform such other > duties > > > > > of a > > > > > legal character, as may from time to time be referred or assigned > to > > > > > him by > > > > > the Govern-ment, and to discharge the functions conferred on him > by > > > > > or under > > > > > this Constitution or any other law for the time being in force. > > > > > > > > > > (3) In the performance of his duties, the Advocate General shall > > > > > have the > > > > > right of audience in all courts in the State. > > > > > > > > > > (4) The Advocate General shall hold office during the pleasure of > > > > > the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and receive such remuneration as the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > may > > > > > determine. > > > > > > > > > > *CONDUCT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS* > > > > > > > > > > 43. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall make rules for the more > > > > > convenient transaction of the business of the > > > > > Government of the State and for the allocation > > > > > among Ministers of the said business. > > > > > > > > > > 44. It shall be the duty of the Prime Minister > > > > > > > > > > (a) to communicate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat all decisions of the > > > > > council of > > > > > Ministers relating to the administration of the affairs of the > State > > > > > and > > > > > proposals for legislation; > > > > > > > > > > (b) to furnish such information relating to the administration of > > > > > the > > > > > affairs of the State and proposals for legislation as the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > may call for; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) if the Sadar-i-Riyasat so rqeuires to submit for the > > > > > consideration of > > > > > the Council of Ministers any matter on which a decision has been > > > > > taken by a > > > > > Minister but which has not been considered by the Council. > > > > > > > > > > 45. (1) All executive action of the Government shall be expressed > to > > > > > be > > > > > taken in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat of the Jammu and Kashmir. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Orders and other instruments made and executed in the name of > > > > > the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or of the Government of Jammu and Kashmir shall be > > > > > authenticated in such manner as may be specified in the rules to > be > > > > > made be > > > > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and the validity of an order or instrument > > > > > which is so > > > > > authenticated shall not be called in question on the ground that > it > > > > > is not > > > > > an order or instrument made or executed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat or > as > > > > > the > > > > > case may be, by the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.** > > > > > > > > > > *PART VI* > > > > > *THE STATE LEGISLATIVE*** > > > > > > > > > > *COMPOSITION OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > > > > > > > 46. There shall be Legislature for the State which shall consist > of > > > > > the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and two Houses be known respectively as the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly and the Legislative Council. > > > > > > > > > > 47. (1) The Legislative Assembly shall consist of one hundred > > > > > members chosen > > > > > by direct election from territorial constituencies in the State; > > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, if he is of opinion that > > > > > women are > > > > > not adequately represented in the Assembly nominate not more than > > > > > two women > > > > > to be members thereof. > > > > > > > > > > (2) For the purposes of sub-section (I), the State shall be > divided > > > > > into > > > > > territorial constituencies in such a manner that the ratio between > > > > > the > > > > > population of each constituency and the number of seats allotted > to > > > > > it > > > > > shall, so far as practicable, be the same throughout the State. > > > > > Explanation: > > > > > In this sub-section, the express-ion "Population' means the > > > > > population as > > > > > ascertained at the last preceding census of which the relevant > > > > > figures have > > > > > been published. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Upon the completion of each census, the number, extent and > > > > > boundaries of > > > > > the territor-ial constituencies shall be readjusted by such > > > > > authority and in > > > > > such manner as the Legislature may be law determine: > > > > > Provided that such readjustment shall not affect representation in > > > > > the > > > > > Legislative Assemb until the disolution of the then exist-ing > > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > 48. Notwithstanding anything contained in section 47, until the > area > > > > > of the > > > > > State under the occuptions of Pakistan ceases to so occupied and > the > > > > > people > > > > > residing in that area elect their representatives > > > > > > > > > > (a) twenty-five seats in the Legislative Assembly shall remain > > > > > vacant and > > > > > shall not be taken into account for reckoning the total > member-ship > > > > > of the > > > > > Assembly; and the said area shall be excluded in delimiting the > > > > > territorial > > > > > Constituencies Under Section 47. > > > > > > > > > > 49. (I) There shall be reserved in the Lagislative Assembly for > the > > > > > Scheduled Castes in the State a number of seats which shall bear, > as > > > > > nearly > > > > > as may be, the same proportion to the total number of seats in the > > > > > Assembly > > > > > as the popu-lation of the Scheduled Castes bears to the population > > > > > of the > > > > > State. > > > > > > > > > > Explanation: In this sub-section: > > > > > > > > > > (a) "population" has the same meaning as in sub-section (2) of > > > > > section 47; > > > > > and > > > > > (b) "Scheduled Castes" means the caste, races or tribes or part > of, > > > > > or > > > > > groups within castes, races or tribes which are for the purposes > of > > > > > the > > > > > Constitution of India deemed to be Scheduled Casts in relation to > > > > > the State > > > > > under the pro-visions of article 341 of that Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sub-section (1) shall cease to have effect > on > > > > > the > > > > > expiration of a period of five years from the commencement of this > > > > > Constitution: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that such cesser shall not affect any representation in > the > > > > > Legislative Assembly until the dissolution of the then existing > > > > > Assembly: > > > > > > > > > > 50. (1) The Legislative Council shall consist of thirty six > members, > > > > > chosen > > > > > in the manner provided in this section. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Eleven members shall be elected by the men hers of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of > > > > > Kashmir > > > > > and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Eleven members shall be elected by the mem-bers of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of > > > > > Jammu and > > > > > are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > > > > Provided that of the members so elected, at least one shall be a > > > > > resident of > > > > > Doda District and at least one shall be a resident of Poonch > > > > > District. > > > > > > > > > > (4) One member shall be elected by each of the following > > > > > electorates, namely > > > > > > > > > > (a) the members of municipal council, town area committees and > > > > > notified area > > > > > com-mittees in the Province of Kashmir; > > > > > > > > > > (b) the members of municipal council, town area committees, and > > > > > notified > > > > > area committees in the Province of Jammu; > > > > > > > > > > (c) permanent residents who have been for at least three years > > > > > engaged in > > > > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government > in > > > > > the > > > > > Province of Kashmir; and > > > > > > > > > > (d) permanent residents who have been for at least three years > > > > > engaged in > > > > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government > in > > > > > the > > > > > Province of Jammu. > > > > > > > > > > (5) Two members shall be elected by each of the following > > > > > electorates, > > > > > namely: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in > the > > > > > Province of Kashmir as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify; > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (b) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in > the > > > > > Province of Jammu as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > > > > > > > > > (6) Six members shall be nominated by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, not > more > > > > > than > > > > > three of whom shall be person belonging to any of the socially or > > > > > economically backward classes in the State, and the others shall > be > > > > > persons > > > > > having special knowledge or practical experi-ence in respect of > > > > > matters such > > > > > as literature, science, art, co-operative movement and social > > > > > service. > > > > > > > > > > (7) Elections under sub-section (2) and (3) shall be held in > > > > > accordance with > > > > > the system of pro-portional representation by means of the single > > > > > transferable vote. > > > > > > > > > > *GENERAL PROVISIONS* > > > > > > > > > > 51. A person shall not be qualified to be chosen to fill a seat in > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature unless he: > > > > > > > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the State; > > > > > > > > > > (b) is, in the case of a seat in the Legislative Assembly, not > less > > > > > than > > > > > twenty-five years of age, and in the case of a seat in the > > > > > Legisla-tive > > > > > Council, not less than thirty years of age; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) possesses such other qualifications as may be prescribed in > that > > > > > behalf > > > > > by or under any law made by Legislature. > > > > > > > > > > 52. (1) The Legislative Assembly, unless sooner dis-solved, shall > > > > > continue > > > > > for five years from the date appointed for its first meeting and > not > > > > > longer, > > > > > and the expiration of the said period of five years shall operate > as > > > > > a > > > > > dissolution of the Assembly; > > > > > Provided that the said period may, while a Proclamation of > Emergency > > > > > issued > > > > > under arti-cle 352 of the Constitution of India is in operation, > be > > > > > extended > > > > > by the State Legislature by law for a period not exceeding one > year > > > > > at a > > > > > time and not extending in any case beyond a period of six months > > > > > after the > > > > > Proclamation has ceased to operate. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Legislative Council shall not be subject to dissolution > but > > > > > as > > > > > nearly as possible one-third of the members thereof shall retire, > as > > > > > soon as > > > > > may be, on the expiration of every second year in accordance with > > > > > the > > > > > provisions made in that behalf by Legislature by law. > > > > > > > > > > 53. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall from time to time summon each > > > > > House of the > > > > > Legislature to meet at such time and place as he thinks fit, but > six > > > > > months > > > > > shall not intervene between its last sitting in one session and > the > > > > > date > > > > > appointed for its first sitting in the next session. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may from time to time... > > > > > > > > > > (a) prorogue the House or either house (b) dissolve the > Legislative > > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > 54. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may address either House of > Legislature, > > > > > or both > > > > > Houses assembled together, and may for that purpose require the > > > > > attendance > > > > > of members. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may send messages to either House, whether > > > > > with > > > > > respect to a Bill then bending in the Legislature, or otherwise > and > > > > > a House > > > > > to which any message is so sent shall with all convenient dispatch > > > > > consider > > > > > any matter required by the message to be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > > > 55. (1) At the commencement of the first session after each > general > > > > > election > > > > > to the Legislative Assembly and at the commencement of the first > > > > > session of > > > > > each year, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall address both Houses of > > > > > Legislature > > > > > assembled together and inform the Legislature of the cause of its > > > > > summons. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Provision shall be made by the rules regulating the procedure > of > > > > > either > > > > > House for the allot-ment of time for discussion of the matters > > > > > reffered to > > > > > in such address. > > > > > > > > > > 56. Every Minister and the Advocate General shall have the right > to > > > > > speak > > > > > in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings, of both Houses > > > > > and to > > > > > speak in, and otherwise to to take part in the proceedings of, any > > > > > Committee-of the Legislature of which he may be named a member, > but > > > > > shall > > > > > not, by virtue of this section, be entitled to vote. > > > > > > > > > > *OFFICERS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > > > > > > > 57. The Legislative Assembly shall, as soon as may be, choose two > > > > > members of > > > > > the Assembly to be res-pectively Speaker and Deputy Speaker > thereof > > > > > and, so > > > > > often at office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant, the > > > > > Assembly > > > > > shall choose another member to be Speaker, or Deputy Speaker, as > the > > > > > case > > > > > may be. > > > > > > > > > > 58. A member holding office as Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly: > > > > > > > > > > (a) shall vacate his office if he ceases to be a member of the > > > > > Assembly; > > > > > > > > > > (b) may at any time by writing under his hand addressed, if such > > > > > member is > > > > > the Speaker, to the Deputy Speaker, and if such member is the > Deputy > > > > > Speaker, to the Speaker, resign his office; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) may be removed from his office by a resolu-tion of the > Assembly > > > > > passed > > > > > by a majority of all the then members of the Assembly; > > > > > > > > > > Provided that no resolution for the purpose of clause (c) shall be > > > > > moved > > > > > unless at least fourteen days notice has been given of the > intention > > > > > to move > > > > > the resolution. > > > > > > > > > > Provided further that, whenever the Assembly is dissolved, the > > > > > Speaker that > > > > > not vacate his office until immediately before the first meeting > of > > > > > the > > > > > Assembly after the dissolution. > > > > > > > > > > 59. (1) While the office of Speaker is vacant the duties of the > > > > > office shall > > > > > be performed by the Deputy Speaker or, if the office of the Deputy > > > > > Speaker > > > > > is also vacant, by such member of the Assembly as the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > > > > appoint for the purpose. > > > > > > > > > > (2) During the absence of the Speaker from any sitting of the > > > > > Assembly the > > > > > Deputy speaker or, if he is also absent, such person as may be > > > > > determined by > > > > > the rules of procedure of the Assembly, or, if no such person is > > > > > present, > > > > > such other person as may be determined by the Assembly, shall act > as > > > > > Speaker. > > > > > > > > > > 60. (1) At any sitting of the Legislative Assembly, while any > > > > > resolution for > > > > > the removal of the Speaker from his office is under consideration, > > > > > the > > > > > Speaker, or while any resolution for the removal of the Deputy > > > > > Speaker from > > > > > his office is under consideration, the Deputy Speaker shall not, > > > > > though he > > > > > is present, preside and the provisions of sub-section (2) of > section > > > > > 59 > > > > > shall apply inrelation to every such sitting as they apply in > > > > > relation to a > > > > > sitting from which the Speaker or, as the case may be, the Deputy > > > > > Speaker is > > > > > absent. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Speaker shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to > > > > > take part > > > > > in the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly while any > resolu-tion > > > > > for his > > > > > removal from office is under con-sideration in the Assembly and > > > > > shall, > > > > > notwith-standing anything in section 67, be entitled to vote only > in > > > > > the > > > > > first instance on such resolu-tion or on any other matter during > > > > > such > > > > > pro-ceedings but not in the case of an equality of votes. > > > > > > > > > > 61. (1) The Legislative Council shall, as soon as may be, choose > two > > > > > members > > > > > of the Council to be respectively Chairman and Deputy Chairman > > > > > thereof and, > > > > > so often as the office of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman becomes > > > > > vacant, > > > > > the Council shall choose another member to be Chairman or Deputy > > > > > Chairman, > > > > > as the case may be. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 58,59 and 60 shall apply in > relation > > > > > to the > > > > > Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council with the > > > > > substitution of the words "Chairman" and "Council" for the words > > > > > "Speaker" > > > > > and "Assembly" respectively wherever they occur in those > provisions, > > > > > and > > > > > with the omission of the further proviso to section 58. > > > > > > > > > > 62. There shall be pay to the speaker and the the Deputy Speaker > of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislative Assembly and to the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman > of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislative Council, such salaries and allowances as may be > > > > > respectively > > > > > fixed by Legislature by law and, until provi-sion in that behalf > is > > > > > so made, > > > > > such salaries and allowances as are specified in the Third > Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > 63. (1) Each House of the Legislature shall have a separate > > > > > secretarial > > > > > Staff: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as > > > > > preventing > > > > > the creation of posts common to both Houses. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Legislature may by law regulate the re-cruitment, and the > > > > > conditions > > > > > of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of each > > > > > House. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Until provision is made by the Legislature under sub-section > > > > > (2), the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may, after consultation with the Speaker of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case > may > > > > > be, > > > > > make rules regulating the recruitment, and the con-ditions of > > > > > service of > > > > > persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of the Assembly or the > > > > > Council, > > > > > and any rules so made shall have effect subject to the provisions > of > > > > > any law > > > > > made under the said sub-section. > > > > > > > > > > *CONDUCT OF BUSINESS* > > > > > > > > > > 64. Every member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative > > > > > Council > > > > > shall before taking his seat, make and sub-scribe before the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > or some person appointed in that behalf by him an oath or > > > > > affirmation > > > > > according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > 65. Save as otherwise provided by the rules of proce-dure of the > > > > > House, the > > > > > quorum to constitute a meeting of the Legislative Assembly and of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislative Council shall be twenty and ten re-spectively. > > > > > > > > > > 66. A House of the Legislature shall have power to act > > > > > notwithstanding any > > > > > vacancy in the membership thereof, and any proceedings in the > > > > > Legislature > > > > > shall be valid notwithstanding that it is discovered subsequently > > > > > that some > > > > > person who was not entitl-ed so to do sat or voted or otherwise > took > > > > > part in > > > > > the proceedings. > > > > > > > > > > 67. (1) Save as otherwise provided in this Constitu-tion, all > > > > > questions at > > > > > any sitting of a House of the Legislature shall be determined by a > > > > > majority > > > > > of votes of the members present and voting, other than the Speaker > > > > > or > > > > > Chairman, or person acting as such. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such, shall not > > > > > vote in the > > > > > first instance, but shall have and exercise a casting vote in the > > > > > case of an > > > > > equality of votes. > > > > > > > > > > *DISQUALIFICATIONS OF MEMBERS*** > > > > > > > > > > 68. (1) No person shall be a member of both Houses of the > > > > > Legislature and > > > > > provision shall be made by Legislature by law for the vacation by > a > > > > > person > > > > > who is chooser a member of both Houses of his seat in one House or > > > > > the > > > > > other. > > > > > > > > > > (2) If a member of a House of the Legislature resigns his seat by > > > > > writing > > > > > under his hand addressed to tile Speaker or the Chairman, as the > > > > > case may > > > > > be, his s at shall thereupon become vacant. > > > > > > > > > > (3) If for a period of sixty days a member of a House of the > > > > > Legislature is > > > > > without permission of the House absent from all meetings thereof, > > > > > the House > > > > > may declare his seat vacant: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that in computing the said period of sixty days no > account > > > > > shall be > > > > > taken of: > > > > > > > > > > (a) such absence caused by reason beyond his control; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) any period during which the House is prorogued or is adjourned > > > > > for more > > > > > than four consecutive days. > > > > > > > > > > 69. (1) A person shall be disqualified for being chosen and for > > > > > being a > > > > > member of the Legislative Assembly or Legislative Council: > > > > > > > > > > (a) if he holds any office of profit under the Government of > India > > > > > or the > > > > > State Govern-ment within the Union of India, other than an office > > > > > declared > > > > > by Legislature by law not to dis-qualify its holder; > > > > > > > > > > (b) if he is of unsound mind and stands so declared by a competent > > > > > court; > > > > > > > > > > (c) if he is an undischarged insolvent; > > > > > > > > > > (d) if he is not a permanent resident of the State or has > > > > > voluntarily > > > > > acquired the citizenship of a foreign State, or is under any > > > > > acknowledgement > > > > > of allegiance to adherence to a foreign State; > > > > > > > > > > (e) if he is so disqualified by or under any law made by the > > > > > Legislature. > > > > > > > > > > (2) For the purposes of this section, a person shall not be deemed > > > > > to hold > > > > > an office of profit under the Government of India, the State > > > > > Government or > > > > > any other State Government vithin the Union of India, by reason > only > > > > > that he > > > > > is a Minister, or a Deputy Minister. > > > > > > > > > > 70. (1) If it is represented to the Speaker or the Chairman that > a > > > > > member > > > > > of the Legislative Assembly or, as the case may be, of the > > > > > Legis-lative > > > > > Council is disqualified for being such a member under the > provisions > > > > > of > > > > > section 69, or > > > > > was so disqualified at any time since being chosen as a member and > > > > > the > > > > > member does not admit that he is or was so disqualified, the > > > > > question shall > > > > > be referred to the High Court decision and its decision shall be > > > > > final: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that w here the disqualification in question arises from > > > > > circumstances which subsisted at the time of his being chosen as > > > > > such > > > > > member, no such representation as aforesaid shall be entertained: > > > > > > > > > > (a) unless it is made after the expiration of the period by law > for > > > > > presenting an elec-tion petition calling in question the election > of > > > > > the > > > > > member; and > > > > > > > > > > (b) if such an election petition is pending or has been tried, > > > > > unless the > > > > > Speaker or Chairman as the case may be is satisfied that the > > > > > question of the > > > > > members' disquali-fication by reason of those circumstances has > not > > > > > been > > > > > raised or, as the case may be, was not raised, in the proceedings > on > > > > > the > > > > > election petition. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Where on a representation made under sub-section (I) the > member > > > > > admits > > > > > that he is or w. s disqualified under the provisions of section > 69, > > > > > or where > > > > > on a reference made under that sub-section the High Court decides > > > > > that the > > > > > member is or was so disqualified, his seat shall thereupon become > > > > > vacant. > > > > > > > > > > 71. If a person sits or votes as a member of the Legislative > > > > > Assembly or the > > > > > Legislative Council before he has complied with the requirements > of > > > > > section > > > > > 54 or when he knows that he is not quali-fied or that he is > > > > > disqualified for > > > > > membership thereof or that he is prohibited from so doing by the > > > > > provisions > > > > > of any law made by the Legislature, he shall be liable in respect > of > > > > > each > > > > > day on which he so sits or votes to a penalty of one hundred > rupees > > > > > to be > > > > > recovered as a debt due to the State. > > > > > > > > > > *POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND > ITS > > > > > MEMBERS* > > > > > > > > > > 72. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the > > > > > rules and > > > > > standing orders regulating the procedure of the Legislature, there > > > > > shall be > > > > > freedom of speech in the Legislature. > > > > > > > > > > (2) No member of the Legislature shall be liable to any > proceedings > > > > > in any > > > > > court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in the > > > > > Legislature or any committee thereof and no person shall be so > > > > > liable in > > > > > respect of the publication by or under the authority of a House of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature of any report, paper, votes, or proceedings. > > > > > > > > > > (3) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of a > > > > > House of > > > > > the Legislature and- of the members and the committees of a House > of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature shall be such as may from time to time be defined by > > > > > Legislature > > > > > by law, and until so defined shall be those of the Parliament of > > > > > India and > > > > > of its members and committees. > > > > > > > > > > (4) The provisions of sub-sections (1), (2) and (3) shall apply in > > > > > relation > > > > > to persons who by virtue of this Constitution have the right t o > > > > > speak, in > > > > > and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of, a House of the > > > > > Legislature > > > > > or any committee thereof as they apply in relation to members of > > > > > that > > > > > Legislature. > > > > > > > > > > 73. Members of the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative > Council > > > > > shall be > > > > > entitled to receive such salaries and allowances as may from time > to > > > > > time be > > > > > determined by Legislature by law and, until provision in that > > > > > respect is so > > > > > made, salaries and allowances at such rates and upon such > conditions > > > > > as were > > > > > immediately before the commencement of this Constitution > applicable > > > > > in the > > > > > case of members of the Constituent Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > *LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURE* > > > > > > > > > > 74. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 76 and 84 with > respect > > > > > to > > > > > Money Bills and other Finan-cial Bills, a Bill may originate in > > > > > either House > > > > > of the Legislature. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Subject to the provisions of sections 75 and 76 a Bill shall > not > > > > > be > > > > > deemed to have been passed by the Legislature unless it has been > > > > > agreed to > > > > > by both Houses, either without amendment or with such amendments > > > > > only as are > > > > > agreed to by both Houses. > > > > > > > > > > (3) A Bill pending in the Legislature shall not lapse by reason of > > > > > the > > > > > prorogation of the House or House thereof. > > > > > > > > > > (4) A Bill pending in the Legislative Council which has not been > > > > > passed by > > > > > the Legislative Assembly shall not lapse on a dissolution of the > > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > (5) A Bill which is pending in the Legislative Assembly or which > > > > > having been > > > > > passed by the Legislative Assembly, is pending in the Legi-slative > > > > > Council, > > > > > shall lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly > > > > > > > > > > 75. (1) If after a Bill has been passed by the Legisla-tive > Assembly > > > > > and > > > > > transmitted to the Legisla-tive Council: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) more than three months elapse from the date on which the Bill > is > > > > > laid > > > > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > > > > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > > > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Legisl-ative Assembly > may, > > > > > subject > > > > > to the rules regulating its procedure, pass the Bill again in the > > > > > same or in > > > > > any subse-quent session with or without such amendments, if any, > as > > > > > have > > > > > been made suggested or agreed to by the Legislative Council and > then > > > > > transmit the Bill as so passed to the Legislative Council. > > > > > > > > > > (2) If after a Bill has been so palmed for the se-cond time by the > > > > > legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) more shall one month elapses from the date on which the Bill > is > > > > > laid > > > > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > > > > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > > > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; > > > > > > > > > > the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Houses of the > > > > > Legislature in the form in which it passed by the Legislative > > > > > Assembly for > > > > > the second time with such amendments, if any, as have been made or > > > > > suggested > > > > > by the Legislative Council and agreed to by the Legislative > > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Nothing in this section shall apply to a Money Bill. > > > > > > > > > > 76. (1) A Money Bill shall not be introduced in the Legislative > > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > > > (2) After a Money Bill has been passed by the Legislative > Assembly, > > > > > it shall > > > > > be transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommenda-tions > > > > > and the > > > > > Legislative Council shall within a period of fourteen days from > the > > > > > date of > > > > > its receipt of the Bill return the Bill to the Legis-lative > Assembly > > > > > with > > > > > its recommendations, and the Legislative Assemble may there upon > > > > > either > > > > > accept or reject all or any of the recom-mendations of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > > > (3) If the Legislative Assembly accepts any of the recommendations > > > > > of the > > > > > Legislative Council, the Money Bil] shall deemed to have been > passed > > > > > by both > > > > > Houses with the amend-ments recommended by the Legislative > Coun-cil > > > > > and > > > > > accepted by the Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > (4) If the Legislative Assembly does not accept any of the > > > > > recommendations > > > > > of the Legislative Council, the Money Bill shall be deemed to have > > > > > been > > > > > passed by both Houses in the form which it was passed by the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly without any of the amendments recommended by the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > > > 5. If a Money Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly and > > > > > transmitted to the > > > > > Legislative Council for its recommendations is not returned to the > > > > > Legislative Assembly within the said period of fourteen days, it > > > > > shall be > > > > > deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the > > > > > said > > > > > period in the form in which it was passed by the Legislative > > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > 77. (1) For the purposes of the part, a Bill shall be deemed to be > a > > > > > Money > > > > > Bill if it contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the > > > > > following > > > > > matters namely: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation > > > > > of any > > > > > tax; > > > > > > > > > > (b) the regulation of the borrowing of money or the giving of any > > > > > guarantee > > > > > by the State, or the amendment of the law with respect to any > > > > > financial > > > > > obligations under-taken or to be undertaken by the State; > > > > > > > > > > (c) the custody of the Consolidated Fund or the Contingency Fund > of > > > > > the > > > > > State, the payment of money into or the with-drawal of moneys from > > > > > any such > > > > > Fund: > > > > > > > > > > (d) the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of > the > > > > > State; > > > > > > > > > > (e) the declaring of any expenditure to be expenditure charges on > > > > > the > > > > > consolidated Fund of the State, or the increasing of the amount of > > > > > any such > > > > > expenditure; > > > > > > > > > > (f) the receipt of money on account of the Consolidated Fund of > the > > > > > State or > > > > > the public account of the State or the custody or issue of such > > > > > money; or > > > > > any matter incidental to any of the matters specified in clauses > (a) > > > > > to (f). > > > > > > > > > > (2) A Bill shall not be deemed to be a Money Bill by reason only > > > > > that it > > > > > provides for the imposition of fines or other pecuniary penalties > or > > > > > for the > > > > > demand or payment of fees for lice-nces or fees for services > > > > > rendered, or by > > > > > reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, > > > > > alteration > > > > > or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local > > > > > purposes. > > > > > > > > > > (3) If any question arises whether a Bill introduced in the > > > > > Legislature is a > > > > > Money Bill or not, the decision of the Speaker of the Legislative > > > > > Assembly > > > > > thereon shall be final. > > > > > > > > > > (4) There shall be endorsed an every Money Bill when it is > > > > > transmitted to > > > > > the Legislative Council under section 76 and when it is pre-sented > > > > > to the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent under section 78, the certificate of > the > > > > > Speaker > > > > > of the Legislative Assembly signed by him that it is a Money Bill. > > > > > > > > > > 78. When a Bill has been passed by both Houses of the Legislature, > > > > > it shall > > > > > be presented to the Sadar--i-Riyasat and the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall > > > > > declare > > > > > either that he assents to the Bill or that he with-holds assent > > > > > therefrom. > > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, as soon as possible after > the > > > > > presentation to him of the Bill for assent, return the Bill if it > is > > > > > not a > > > > > Money Bill together with a message requesting that the Houses will > > > > > reconsider the Bill or any specified provisions thereof and, in > > > > > particular, > > > > > will consider the desira-bility of introducing any such amendments > > > > > as he may > > > > > recommend in his message and, when a Bill is so returned, the > Houses > > > > > shall > > > > > reconsider the Bill accordingly, and if the Bill is passed again > by > > > > > the > > > > > Houses with or without amendment and presented to the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for > > > > > assent, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not withhold assent therefrom. > > > > > > > > > > *PROCEDURE IN FINANCIAL MATTERS* > > > > > > > > > > 79. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall in respect of every financial > year > > > > > cause > > > > > to be laid before both Houses of the Legislature a statement of > the > > > > > estimated receipts and expenditure of the State for that year, in > > > > > this part > > > > > referred to as the "annual financial statement." (2) The estimates > > > > > of > > > > > expenditure embodied in the annual financial statement shall show > > > > > separately > > > > > > > > > > (a) the sums required to meet expenditure described by this > > > > > constitution as > > > > > expendi-ture charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State; and > > > > > > > > > > (b) the sums required to meet other expendi-ture proposed to be > made > > > > > from > > > > > the con-solidated Fund of the State; and shall distinguish > > > > > expenditure on > > > > > revenue account from other expenditure. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The following expenditure shall be expenditure charged on the > > > > > consolidated fund of the State: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and other > > > > > expenditure relating to his office; > > > > > > > > > > (b) the salaries and allowances of the Speaker and the Deputy > > > > > Speaker of the > > > > > Legislative Assembly and of the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman > of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislative Council; > > > > > > > > > > (c) debt charges for which the State is liable including interest, > > > > > sinking > > > > > fund charges and redemption charges. and other expenditure > relating > > > > > to the > > > > > raising of loans and the service and redemption of debt; > > > > > > > > > > (d) expenditure in respect of the salaries and allowances of the > > > > > Judges of > > > > > the High Court; > > > > > > > > > > (e) any sums required to satisfy any judge-ment decree or award of > > > > > any Court > > > > > or arbitral tribunal; > > > > > > > > > > (f) any other expenditure declared by this Constitution, or by > > > > > Legislature > > > > > by law, to be so charged. > > > > > > > > > > 80. (1,) So much of the estimates as relates to expen-diture > changed > > > > > upon > > > > > the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be submitted to the > > > > > vote of the > > > > > Legislative Assembly, but nothing in this sub-section shall be > > > > > construed as > > > > > preven-ting the discussion in the Legislature of any those > > > > > estimates. > > > > > > > > > > (2) So much of the said estimates as relates to other expenditure > > > > > shall be > > > > > submitted in the form of demands for grants to the Legislative > > > > > Assembly, and > > > > > the Legislative Assembly shall have power to assent, or to refuse > to > > > > > assent, > > > > > to any demand, or to assent to any demand subject to a reduction > of > > > > > the > > > > > amount specified therein. > > > > > > > > > > (3) No demand for a grant shall be made except on the > recommendation > > > > > of the > > > > > Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > (1) As soon as may be after the grants under section 80 have been > > > > > made by > > > > > the Assembly, there shall be introduced a Bill to provide for the > > > > > appropriation out of the Consolidated fund of the State of all > > > > > moneys > > > > > required to meet: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the grants so made by the Assembly; and (b) the expenditure > > > > > charged on > > > > > the Consoli-dated Fund of the State but not exceed-ing in any case > > > > > the > > > > > amount shown in the statement previously laid before the Houses. > > > > > > > > > > (23 No amendment shall be proposed to any such Bill in either > House > > > > > of the > > > > > Legislature which will have the effect of varying the amount or > > > > > altering the > > > > > destination of any grant to made or of varying the amount of any > > > > > expenditure > > > > > charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State, and the decision of > > > > > the > > > > > person presiding as to whether an amendment is inadmissible under > > > > > the > > > > > sub-section shall be final. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Subject to the provisions of sections 89 and 83, no money > shall > > > > > be > > > > > withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund of the State except under > > > > > appropriation > > > > > made by law passed in accor-dance with the provisions of this > > > > > section > > > > > > > > > > 12. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall: > > > > > > > > > > (a) if the amount authorised by any law made in accordance with > > > > > provisions > > > > > of section 81 to be expended for a particular service for the > > > > > current > > > > > financial year is found to be insufficient for the purposes of > that > > > > > year or > > > > > when a need has arisen during the current financial year for > > > > > supplemen-tary > > > > > or additional expenditure upon some new service not contemplated > in > > > > > the > > > > > annual financial statement for that year; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) if any money has been spent on any ser-vice during a financial > > > > > year in > > > > > excess of the amount granted for the service and for that year, > > > > > cause to be > > > > > laid before the Houses of the Legislature another statement > showing > > > > > the > > > > > estimated amount of that expenditure or cause to be presented to > the > > > > > Legis-lative Assembly a demand for such excess, as the case may > be. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 79, 80 and 81 shall have effect in > > > > > relation > > > > > to any such statement and expenditure or demand and also to any > law > > > > > to be > > > > > made authorising the appropriation of moneys out of the > Consolidated > > > > > Fund of > > > > > the State to meet such expenditure or the grant in respect of such > > > > > demand as > > > > > they have effect in relation to the annual financial state-ment > and > > > > > the > > > > > expenditure mentioned therein or to a demand for grant and the law > > > > > to be > > > > > 'made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the > > > > > Consolidated Fund of the state to meet such expenditure or grant. > > > > > > > > > > 83. (1) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of > this > > > > > Part, > > > > > the Legislative Assem-bly shall have power: > > > > > > > > > > (a) to make any grant in advance in respect of the estimated > > > > > expenditure for > > > > > a part of any financial year pending the completion of the > procedure > > > > > prescribed in section 80 for the voting of such grant and the > > > > > pas-sing of > > > > > the law in accordance with the provisions of section 81 in > relation > > > > > to that > > > > > expenditure; > > > > > > > > > > (b) to make a grant for meeting an unexpec-ted demand upon the > > > > > resources of > > > > > the State when on account of the magnitude or the indefinite > > > > > character of > > > > > the services the demand cannot be stated with the details > ordinarily > > > > > given > > > > > in an annual financial statement; > > > > > > > > > > (c) to make an exceptional grant which forms no part of the > current > > > > > service > > > > > of any financial year; > > > > > and the Legislature shall have power to authorise by law the > > > > > withdrawal of > > > > > moneys from the Consolidated Fund of the State for the purposes > for > > > > > which > > > > > the said grants are made. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 80 and 81 shall have effect in > > > > > relation to > > > > > the making of any grant under sub-section (1) and to law to be > made > > > > > under > > > > > that sub-section as they have effect in relation to the making of > a > > > > > grant > > > > > with regard to any expenditure mentioned h1 the annual financial > > > > > statement > > > > > and the law to be made for the authorization of appropriation of > > > > > moneys out > > > > > of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure. > > > > > > > > > > 84. (1) A bill or amendment making provision for any of the > matters > > > > > specified in clauses (a) to (f) of sub-section (1) of section 77 > > > > > shall not > > > > > be introduced or moved except on the recom-mendation of the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > > and a Bill making such provision shall not be introdu-ced in the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Council: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that no recommendation shall be required under this > > > > > sub-section for > > > > > the moving of an amendment making provision for the reduction or > > > > > abolition > > > > > of any tax. > > > > > > > > > > (2) A Bill or amendment shall not be deemed to make provision for > > > > > any of the > > > > > matters afore-said by reason only that it provides for the. > > > > > imposition of > > > > > fines or other pecuniary penal-ties, or for the demand or payment > of > > > > > fees > > > > > for licences or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it > > > > > provides > > > > > for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation > > > > > of any > > > > > tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. > > > > > > > > > > (3) A Bill which, if enacted and brought into operation. would > > > > > involve > > > > > expenditure from the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be > > > > > passed by a > > > > > House of the Legislature unless the Sadar-i-Riyasat has > recommended > > > > > to that > > > > > House the consideration of the Bill. > > > > > > > > > > *PROCEDURE GENERALLY* > > > > > > > > > > 85. (1) A House of the Legislature may make rules for regulating, > > > > > subject to > > > > > the provisions of this Constitution, its procedure and the > con-duct > > > > > of its > > > > > business. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Until rules are made under sub-section (1), the rules of > > > > > procedure and > > > > > standing orders in force immediately before the commencement of > this > > > > > > > > > > Constituent Assembly while discharging the functions of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly shall have effect in relation to each House of the > > > > > Legislature > > > > > subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be made > therein > > > > > by the > > > > > Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Council, as the case may be. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, after consultation with the Speaker of > the > > > > > Legislative Assembly and the Chairman of the Legislative Council, > > > > > may make- > > > > > rules as to the procedure with respect to communications between > the > > > > > two > > > > > Houses. > > > > > > > > > > 86. The Legislature may, for the purpose of the timely completion > of > > > > > financial business, regulate by law the procedure of, and the > > > > > conduct of > > > > > business in. the House of the Legislature in relation to any > > > > > financial > > > > > matter or to any Bill for the appropria-tion of moneys out of the > > > > > Consolidated Fund of the State, and, if and so far as any > provision > > > > > of any > > > > > law so made is inconsistent with any rule made by either House of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature under sub-section (I) of section 85 or with any rule > of > > > > > standing > > > > > order having effect in relation to either House of the Legislature > > > > > under > > > > > sub-section (2) of that section such provisions shall prevail. > > > > > > > > > > 87. Business in the Legislature shall be transacted in Urdu or in > > > > > English. > > > > > > > > > > (1) Provided that the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the > > > > > Chairman of > > > > > the Legislative Council or person acting as such, as the case may > > > > > be, may > > > > > permit any member to address the House in Hindi, or if he cannot > > > > > adequa-tely > > > > > express himself in any of the aforesaid languages, to address the > > > > > House in > > > > > his mother-tongue. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The official records of the proceedings in the Legislature > shall > > > > > be kept > > > > > in Urdu as well as in English. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The text of all Bills and amendments there of moved in and of > > > > > all Acts > > > > > passed by the Legis-lature which shall be treated as > authoritative, > > > > > shall be > > > > > in English. > > > > > > > > > > 88. No discussion shall take place in the Legislature with respect > > > > > to the > > > > > conduct of any Judge of the Supreme Court or of the High Court in > > > > > the > > > > > discharge of his duties. > > > > > > > > > > 89. (1) The validity of any proceedings in the Legis-lature shall > > > > > not be > > > > > called in question -on the gro-unds of any alleged irregularity of > > > > > procedure. > > > > > > > > > > (2) No officer or member of the Legislature in whom powers are > > > > > vested by > > > > > or under this Constitution for regulating procedure or the conduct > > > > > of > > > > > Business, or for maintaining order, in the Legislature shall be > > > > > subject to > > > > > the juris-diction of any court in respect of the exercise by him > of > > > > > those > > > > > powers. > > > > > > > > > > 90. No Act of the Legislature and no provision in any such Act > shall > > > > > be > > > > > invalid by reason only that some recommendation required by this > > > > > Constitution was not given, if assent to that Act was given by the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > Legislative power of the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > > > > > > > 91. (1) If at any time, except when both Houses of the Legislature > > > > > are in > > > > > session, the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that circumstances exist > > > > > which > > > > > render it necessary for him to take immediate action; he may > > > > > promulgate such > > > > > Ordinances as the circums-tances appear to him to require. > > > > > Provided that the power of making Ordinance under this Section > shall > > > > > extend > > > > > only to those matters with respect to which the Legislature has > > > > > power to > > > > > make laws. > > > > > > > > > > (2) An Ordinance promulgated under this section shall have the > same > > > > > force > > > > > and effect as an Act of the Legislature assented to by the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > > but every such Ordinance: > > > > > > > > > > (a) shall be laid before both the Houses of the Legislature, and > > > > > shall cease > > > > > to operate at the expiration of six weeks from the re-assembly of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature, or if be-fore tile expiration of that period a > > > > > reso-lution > > > > > disapproving it is passed by the Legislative Assembly and agreed > to > > > > > by > > > > > Legislative Council, upon the resolution being agreed to by the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Coun-cil, and - > > > > > > > > > > (b) may be withdrawn at any time by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > Explanation: - Where the Houses of the Legislature are summoned > to > > > > > re-assemble on different dates the period of six weeks shall be > > > > > reckoned > > > > > from the latter of those dates for the purposes of this > sub-section. > > > > > > > > > > Breakdown of Constitutional Machinery. > > > > > > > > > > 92. (1) If at any time the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that a > > > > > situation has > > > > > arisen in which the Government of the State cannot be carried on > in > > > > > accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > > > > by Proclamation: > > > > > > > > > > (a) assume to himself all or any of the func-tions of the > Government > > > > > of the > > > > > State and all or any of the powers vested in or excercisable by > > > > > anybody or > > > > > authority in the State; > > > > > > > > > > (b) make such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to > > > > > the > > > > > Sadar-i--Riyasat to be necessary or desirable for giving effect to > > > > > the > > > > > objects of the Procla-mation, including provisions for suspen-ding > > > > > in whole > > > > > or in part the operation of any provision of this Constitution > > > > > rela-ting to > > > > > any body or authority in the State: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that nothing in this section shall authorised die > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > to assume to himself any of the powers vested in or exer-cisable > by > > > > > the High > > > > > Court or to suspend in whole or in part the operation of any > > > > > provi-sion of > > > > > this Constitution relating to the High Court. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Any such Proclamation may be revoked or carried by a > subsequent > > > > > Proclamation. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Any such Proclamation whether varied under sub-section (2) or > > > > > not, > > > > > shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous > > > > > Proclama-tion, > > > > > cease to operate on the expiration of six months from the date on > > > > > which it > > > > > divas first Issued. > > > > > > > > > > (4) If the Sadar-i-Riyasat by a Proclamation under this section > > > > > assumes to > > > > > himself any of the powers of the legislature to make laws, any law > > > > > made by > > > > > him in the exercise of that power shall, subject to the terms > > > > > thereof, > > > > > continue to have effect until two years have elapsed from the date > > > > > on which > > > > > the Proclamation ceases to have effect, unless sooner repealed or > > > > > re-enacted > > > > > by an Act of the Legislature, and any reference in this > Constitution > > > > > to any > > > > > Acts of or laws made by the Legislature shall be construed as > > > > > including a > > > > > reference to such law. No Proclamation under sub-section (1) shall > > > > > be issued > > > > > except with the concurrence of the President of India. > > > > > > > > > > (6) Every Proclamation under this section shall, except where it > is > > > > > a > > > > > Proclamation revoking a previous Proclamation, be laid before each > > > > > house of > > > > > the Legisiature as soon as it is convened. > > > > > > > > > > *PART VII* > > > > > *THE HIGH COURT* > > > > > > > > > > 93. (1) There shall be a High Court for the State, consisting of a > > > > > Chief > > > > > Justice and two or more other judges. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The High Court exercising jurisdiction in relation to the > State > > > > > Immediately before the commencement of this Constitution shall be > > > > > the High > > > > > Court for the State. > > > > > > > > > > 94. The High Court shall be a court of record and shall have all > the > > > > > powers > > > > > of such a courts including the power to punish for contempt of > > > > > itself or of > > > > > the courts subordinate to it. > > > > > > > > > > 95. Every Judge of the High Court shall be appointed by the > > > > > President by > > > > > Warrant under his hand and seal after consultation with the Chief > > > > > Justice of > > > > > India, the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and in the case of appointment of a > > > > > Judge other > > > > > than the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice of the High Court and > > > > > shall hold > > > > > office until he attains the age of sixty years. > > > > > > > > > > 96. A person shall not be qualified for appointment as a Judge of > > > > > the High > > > > > Court unless he is a citizen of India, and: > > > > > > > > > > (a) has for at least ten years held a judicial office in the State > > > > > or in any > > > > > other part of India; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) has for at least ten years been an advocate of the State High > > > > > Court or > > > > > of any other High Court in India or of two or more such courts in > > > > > succession. > > > > > > > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this Section in omputing the > > > > > period > > > > > during which a person has been an advocate of a High Court. there > > > > > shall be > > > > > included any period during which the person has held judicial > office > > > > > after > > > > > he became an advocate. > > > > > > > > > > 97. Every person appointed to be a Judge of the High > > > > > Court, shall. before he enters upon his office, make an subscribe > > > > > before the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him, an > > > > > oath or > > > > > affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the > > > > > Fifth > > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > 98. (1) There shall be paid to the Judges of the High > > > > > Court such salaries as are specified in the Fourth Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > (a) Every Judge shall be entitled to such allowan-ces and to such > > > > > rights in > > > > > respect of leave of absence and pension as may from time to time > be > > > > > determined by or under law made by the Legislature, and until so > > > > > determined, > > > > > to such allowances and rights as are specified in the Fourth > > > > > Schedule: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that neither the allowances of a Judge nor his rights in > > > > > respect of > > > > > leave of absence or pension shall be varied to his dis-advantage > > > > > after his > > > > > appointment: > > > > > > > > > > 99. (1) A Judge of the High Court may, by writing under his hand > > > > > addressed > > > > > to the President, resign his office. > > > > > > > > > > (2) A Judge of the High Court shall not be removed from his office > > > > > except by > > > > > an order of the President passed after an address by each House of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature supported by a majority of the total membership of > that > > > > > House > > > > > and by a majority of not less than two- thirds of the members of > > > > > that House > > > > > present and voting has been presented to the president > > > > > in the same session for such removal on the > > > > > ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The Legislature may by law regulate the procedure for the > > > > > presentation > > > > > of an address and for the investigation and proof of the > > > > > misbehaviour or > > > > > incapacity of a Judge under sub-section (2). > > > > > > > > > > 100. (1) When the office of the Chief Justice is vacant or when > the > > > > > Chief > > > > > Justice is by reason of absence or otherwise, unable to perform > the > > > > > duties > > > > > of his office, the duties of the office shall be performed by such > > > > > one of > > > > > the other > > > > > Judges of the Court as the President may appoint for the purpose. > > > > > > > > > > (2) When any Judge of the High Court other than the Chief Justice > is > > > > > by > > > > > reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the > > > > > duties of > > > > > his office or is appointed to act temporarily as Chief Justice, > the > > > > > President may appoint a duly qualified person to act as a Judge of > > > > > the Court > > > > > until the permanent Judge has resumed his duties. > > > > > > > > > > 101. (1) The usual places of sitting of the High Court shall be > > > > > Jammu and > > > > > Srinagar. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Chief Justice shall, with the approval of the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > determine the number of Judges who shall sit from time to time at > > > > > Jammu and > > > > > at Srinagar for such period as may be deemed necessary. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Whenever it appears to the Chief Justice that it is desirable > > > > > that the > > > > > High Courts should hold its sitting at a place other than Srinagar > > > > > and > > > > > Jummu, one or more Judges of the High Court as determined by him > > > > > shall, with > > > > > the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, sit at such place. > > > > > > > > > > 102. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the > > > > > provisions of > > > > > any law for the time being in force, the jurisdiction of and the > law > > > > > > > > > > administered in the High Court and the respective powers of the > > > > > Judges > > > > > thereof in relation to the administration of justice in the court, > > > > > including > > > > > any power to make rules of court and to regulate the sittings of > the > > > > > court > > > > > and of members thereof, sitting alone or in Division Courts, shall > > > > > be the > > > > > same as immedia-tely before the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > 103. The High Court shall have power to issue to any person or > > > > > authority, > > > > > including in appropriate cases any Government within the State, > > > > > directions, > > > > > orders or writs. including writs in the nature of habeas corpus, > > > > > mandamus, > > > > > prohibition, quo warranto and certiorari, or any of them. for any > > > > > purpose > > > > > other than those mentioned in clause (2A) of article 32 of the > > > > > Constitution > > > > > of India. > > > > > > > > > > 104. (1) The High Court shall have superintendence and control > over > > > > > all > > > > > courts for the time being subject to its appellate or revisional > > > > > jusrisdic-tion and all such courts shall be subordinate to the > High > > > > > Court. > > > > > > > > > > (I) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing > provision, > > > > > the High > > > > > court may: > > > > > > > > > > (a) call for returns from such courts, > > > > > > > > > > (b) make and issue general rules and prescribe forms for > regulating > > > > > the > > > > > practice and pro-ceedings of such courts; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) Prescribe forms in which books, entries and accounts shall be > > > > > kept by > > > > > the officers of any such court. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The High Court may also settle tables of fees to be allowed to > > > > > the > > > > > sheriff and all clerks and officers of such courts and to > attorneys, > > > > > advo-cates and pleaders practicing therein: > > > > > Provided that any rules made, forms prescrib-ed or tables settled > > > > > under > > > > > sub-section (2) or sub-section(3) shall not be inconsistent with > the > > > > > > > > > > provision of any law for the time being in force, and shall > require > > > > > the > > > > > previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > 105. If the High Court is satisfied that a case pending in a court > > > > > subordinate to it involves a substantial question of law as to the > > > > > interpretation of this Constitution or the Constitution of India > the > > > > > deter-mination of which is necessary for the disposal of the case, > > > > > it shall > > > > > withdraw the case and may: > > > > > > > > > > (a) either dispose of the case itself; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) determine the said question of law and return the case to the > > > > > court from > > > > > which the case has been so withdrawn together with a copy of its > > > > > judgement > > > > > on such question, and the said court shall on receipt thereof > > > > > proceed to > > > > > dispose of the case in conformity with such judgement. > > > > > > > > > > 106. No person who had held office as a Judge of the > > > > > High Court after the commencement of this Con-stitution shall > plead > > > > > or act > > > > > in any court or before any authority within the State. > > > > > > > > > > 107. (1) The High Court shall have and use as occa-sion may > require > > > > > a seal > > > > > bearing a device and impression of the State emblem with an > exergue > > > > > or label > > > > > surrounding the same with the inscription: > > > > > > > > > > "The seal of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir'' > > > > > > > > > > (2) The seal shall be delivered to. and kept in the custody of, > the > > > > > Registrar or such other officer of the court as the Chief Justice > > > > > may > > > > > designate in this behalf. > > > > > > > > > > 108. (1) Appointments of officers and servants of the High Court > > > > > shall be > > > > > made by the Chief Justice of the court or such other judge or > > > > > officer of the > > > > > court as he may direct: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by rule require that in such > > > > > cases as > > > > > may be specified in the rule no person not already attached to the > > > > > court > > > > > shall be appointed to any office connected with the court save > after > > > > > > > > > > consulta-tion with the State Public Service Commis-sion. > > > > > > > > > > (I) Subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, > > > > > the > > > > > conditions of service of the officers and servants of the High > Court > > > > > shall > > > > > be such as may be prescribed by rules made by the High Court with > > > > > the > > > > > approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The administrative expenses of the High Court including all > > > > > salaries, > > > > > allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the officers > and > > > > > > > > > > servants of the Court' shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fund > > > > > of the > > > > > State, and any fees or other moneys taken by the Court shall form > > > > > part of > > > > > that Fund. > > > > > > > > > > *SUBORDINATE COURTS* > > > > > > > > > > 109. (1) Appointment of persons to be, and the postings: and > > > > > promotion off > > > > > district judges in the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat > in > > > > > > > > > > con-sultation with the High Court. > > > > > (2) A person not already in the service of the : State shall only > > > > > be > > > > > eligible to be appointed a district judge if he has been for not > > > > > less than > > > > > seven years an advocate or pleader and is recommended by the High > > > > > Court for > > > > > appointment. > > > > > > > > > > 110. Appointment of persons other than district judges to the > > > > > judicial > > > > > service of the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in > > > > > accordance with > > > > > rules made by him in that behalf after consulation with the Public > > > > > Service > > > > > Commission and with the High Court. > > > > > > > > > > 111. The control over district courts and courts sub-ordinate > > > > > thereto > > > > > including the posting and promo-tion of, and the grant of leave > to, > > > > > persons > > > > > belong-ing to the judicial service of the State and holding any > post > > > > > > > > > > inferior to the post of district judge shall be vested in the High > > > > > Court, > > > > > but nothing in this section shall be construed as taking away from > > > > > any such > > > > > person any right of appeal which he may have under the law > > > > > regulating the > > > > > conditions of his service or as authorising the High Court to deal > > > > > with him > > > > > otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of his service > > > > > prescribed > > > > > under such law. > > > > > > > > > > 112. In this part... > > > > > > > > > > (a) the expression "district judge'' includes additional district > > > > > judge, > > > > > assistant district judge, sessions judge, additional sessions > judge > > > > > and > > > > > assistant sessions judge: > > > > > > > > > > (b) the expression "judical service" means a service consisting > > > > > exclusively > > > > > of persons inten-ded to fill the post of district judge, and other > > > > > civil > > > > > judicial posts inferior to the post of dis-trict judge. > > > > > > > > > > 113. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be public notification direct that > the > > > > > foregoing provisions of this part and any rules made thereunder > > > > > shall with > > > > > effect from such date as may be fixed by him in that behalf apply > in > > > > > > > > > > relation to any class or classes of magis-trates in the State as > > > > > they apply > > > > > in relation to any persons appointed to the judicial service of > the > > > > > State > > > > > Subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified > in > > > > > the > > > > > notification. > > > > > > > > > > *PART VIII* > > > > > *FINANCE, PROPERTY AND CONTRACTS* > > > > > > > > > > 114. No tax shall be levied or collected except by authority of > law. > > > > > > > > > > 115. (1) Subject to the provisions of section 116, all revenues > > > > > received by > > > > > the Government, all loans raised by the Government by the issue of > > > > > treasury bills, loans or ways and means advances and all moneys > > > > > received by > > > > > Government in repayment of loaned shall form one consolidated fund > > > > > to be > > > > > entitled "the Consolidated Fund of the State." > > > > > (2) All other public moneys received by or on behalf of the > > > > > Government shall > > > > > be credited to the public account of the State. > > > > > (3) No moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State shall be > > > > > appropriated except in accordance with law and for the purposes > and > > > > > in the > > > > > manner provided in this Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > 116. The Legislature may by law establish a Contingency Fund in > the > > > > > nature > > > > > of an impress to be entitled > > > > > "the Contingency Fund of the State" into which shall be paid from > > > > > time to > > > > > time such sums as may be determined by such law, and the said Fund > > > > > shall be > > > > > placed at the disposal of the Sadar-i--Riyasat to enable advances > to > > > > > be made > > > > > by him out of such fund for the purposes of meeting unforeseen > > > > > expenditure > > > > > pending authorisation of such expendi-ture by Legislature by law > > > > > under > > > > > section 82 or 83. > > > > > > > > > > 117. The State may make any grants for any public purpose, > > > > > notwithstanding > > > > > that the purpose is not one with expect to which the Legislature > may > > > > > make. > > > > > > > > > > 118. The custody of the Consolidated Fund of the State and the > > > > > Contingency > > > > > Funds of the State, the payment of moneys into such funds, the > > > > > withdrawal of > > > > > moneys therefrom, the custody of public moneys other than those > > > > > credited to > > > > > such Fund received by or on behalf of the Government, their > payment > > > > > into the > > > > > public account of the State and the withdrawal of moneys from such > > > > > account > > > > > and all other matters connected with or ancillary to matters > > > > > aforesaid shall > > > > > be regulated by law made by the Legislature and, until provision > in > > > > > that > > > > > behalf is so made, shall be regulated by rules made by the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > 119. All moneys received by or deposited with: > > > > > > > > > > (a) any officer employed in connection with the affairs of the > State > > > > > in his > > > > > capacity as such, other than revenues or public moneys raised or > > > > > received by > > > > > the Government; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) an, court within the State to the credit of any cause, matter, > > > > > account > > > > > or persons, shall be paid into the public account of the State. > > > > > > > > > > 120. Any property within the State which, if this Constitution had > > > > > not come > > > > > up into operation, would have accrued to the Government or any > other > > > > > authority hi the State by escheat or lapse, or as bona-vacantia > for > > > > > want of > > > > > a rightful owner, shall vest in the State. > > > > > > > > > > 121. (1) The executive power of the State shall extend, subject to > > > > > any law > > > > > made by the State Legisla-ture, to the carrying on of any trade or > > > > > busi-ness, and to the grant, scale, disposition or mortgage of any > > > > > property > > > > > held for the purposes of the State, and to the purchase or > > > > > acquisi-tion of > > > > > property for those purposes and to the making of contracts. > > > > > > > > > > (2) All property acquired for the purposes of the State shall vest > > > > > in the > > > > > State. > > > > > > > > > > 122. (1) All contracts made in the exercise of the executive power > > > > > of the > > > > > State shall be expressed to be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and all > > > > > such > > > > > contracts and all assurance of property made in the exercise of > that > > > > > power > > > > > shall be executed on behalf of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by such persons > > > > > and in > > > > > such manner as he may direct or authorise. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be personally liable in respect > of > > > > > any > > > > > contract or assurance made or executed for the purposes of this > > > > > Constitution, or for the purposes any of enact-ment relating to > the > > > > > Government of the State heretofore in force, nor shall any person > > > > > making or > > > > > executing any such contract or assurance on his behalf be > personally > > > > > liable > > > > > in respect thereof. > > > > > > > > > > 123. The Government may sue or be sued by the name of the State of > > > > > Jammu and > > > > > Kashmir and may, subject to any provisions which may be made by > Act > > > > > of the > > > > > Legislature enacted by virtue of powers conferred by this > > > > > Constitution, sue > > > > > or be sued in relation to its affairs in the like cases as the > State > > > > > might > > > > > have sued or been sued if this Constitution had not been enacted. > > > > > > > > > > *PART IX* > > > > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE* > > > > > > > > > > 124. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the > Legislature > > > > > may by > > > > > law regulate the recruitment and conditions of service of persons > > > > > appointed, > > > > > to public services and posts in connection with the affairs of the > > > > > State: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that it shall be competent for the Sadar--i-Riyasat or > such > > > > > person > > > > > as he may direct, to make rules regulating the recruitment and the > > > > > conditions of services of persons appointed, to such services and > > > > > posts > > > > > until provisions in that behalf is made by or under an Act of the > > > > > Legislature under this section, and any rules so made shall effect > > > > > subject > > > > > to the provisions of any such Act. > > > > > > > > > > 125. (1) Except expressly provided by this Constitution, every > > > > > person who is > > > > > a member of a civil service of the State or holds any civil post > > > > > under the State hold office during the pleasure of the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > (2) Notwithstanding that a person holding a civil post under the > > > > > State holds > > > > > office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, any contract > > > > > under which > > > > > a person, not being a member of a civil service of the State, is > > > > > appointed > > > > > to hold such a post man, if the Sadar-i-Riyasat deems it necessary > > > > > in order > > > > > to secure the services of a person having special qualifications, > > > > > provide > > > > > for tile payment to him of compensation, if before the expiration > of > > > > > an > > > > > agreed period that post is abolished or he is, for reasons not > > > > > connected > > > > > with any miscon-duct on his part required to vacate that post. > > > > > > > > > > 126. (1) No person who is a member of a civil service of tile > State > > > > > or holds > > > > > a civil post under the State shall be distressed or removed by an > > > > > authority > > > > > subordinate to that by which he was appointed. > > > > > > > > > > (2) No such person as aforesaid shall be dismissed or removed or > > > > > reduced in > > > > > rank until he has been given a reasonable opportunity of show-ing > > > > > cause > > > > > against the action proposed to be taken in regard to him: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that this sub-section shall not apply: > > > > > > > > > > (a) where a person is dismissed or removed or reduced in rank on > the > > > > > ground > > > > > of con-duct which has led to his conviction on a criminal charge; > > > > > > > > > > (b) where an authority empowered to dismiss or remove a person or > to > > > > > reduce > > > > > him in rank is satisfied that for some reason, to be recorded by > > > > > that > > > > > authority in writing, it is not reasonably practicable to give to > > > > > that > > > > > person an opportunity of showing cause; or > > > > > > > > > > (c) where the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that in the interests > of > > > > > the > > > > > security of the State it is not expedient to give to that person > > > > > such an > > > > > opportunity. > > > > > > > > > > (3) If any question arises whether it is reasonably > > > > > practicable to give to any person an oppor-tunity of showing cause > > > > > under > > > > > sub-section. > > > > > > > > > > (4) The decision thereon of the authority empo-wered to dismiss or > > > > > remove > > > > > such person or to reduce him in rank, as the case may be, shall be > > > > > final. > > > > > > > > > > 127. Until other Provisional is made in this behalf under the > > > > > constitution, > > > > > all the laws in force im-mediately before the commencement of this > > > > > Consti-tution and applicable to any public service or any post > which > > > > > continues to exist after the commence-ment of this Constitution as > > > > > service > > > > > or post under the- State, shall continue in force so far as > > > > > consistent with > > > > > the provisions of this Constitu-tion. > > > > > > > > > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION* > > > > > > > > > > 128. There shall be a Public Service Commission (here-inafter > > > > > referred to in > > > > > this Part as "the Commi-ssion" for the State. > > > > > > > > > > 129. (1) The Chairman and other members of the Commission shall be > > > > > appointed > > > > > by the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that as nearly as may be one-half of the members of the > > > > > Commission > > > > > shall be persons who at the dates of their respective appointments > > > > > have held > > > > > office for at least ten years under the Government. > > > > > > > > > > (2) A member of the Commission shall hold office of a terms of > five > > > > > years > > > > > from the date on which he enters upon his office or until he > attains > > > > > the age > > > > > of sixty-five years, whichever is earlier: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that: > > > > > > > > > > (a) a member of the Commission may, by writing under his hand > > > > > addressed to > > > > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, resign his office > > > > > > > > > > (b) a member of the Commission may be removed from his office in > the > > > > > manner > > > > > hereinafter provided. > > > > > > > > > > (3) A person who holds office as a member of the Commission shall > on > > > > > the > > > > > expiration of his term of office, be ineligible for re-appointment > > > > > to that > > > > > office. > > > > > > > > > > 130. (1) Subject to the provisions of sub-section (3), the > Chairman > > > > > or any > > > > > other member of the Commission shall only be removed from his > office > > > > > by > > > > > order of the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the ground of misbehaviour after > the > > > > > High > > > > > Court on reference being made to it by the Sadar-i--Riyasat, has, > on > > > > > inquiry > > > > > held in that behalf, reported that the Chairman or such other > > > > > member, as the > > > > > case may be ought on any such ground to be removed. > > > > > > > > > > The Sadar-i-Riyasat may suspend from office the Chairman or any > > > > > other member > > > > > of the Commission in respect of whom a reference has been made to > > > > > the High > > > > > Court under sub-section (l) until the Sadar-i-Riyasat has passed > > > > > orders on > > > > > receipt of the report of the High Court on such reference. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Notwithstanding anything in sub-section (1) the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > may by > > > > > order remove from office the Chairman or any other mem-ber of the > > > > > Commission > > > > > if the Chairman on. such other member, as the case may be - > > > > > > > > > > (a) is adjudged an insolvent; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) engages during his term of office in any paid employment out > > > > > side the > > > > > duties of his office; or > > > > > > > > > > (c) is, in the opinion of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, unfit to continue > in > > > > > office > > > > > by reason of infirmity of mind or body. > > > > > > > > > > (4) If the Chairman or any other member of the Commission is or > > > > > becomes in > > > > > anyway concern-ed or interested in any contract or agreement made > by > > > > > or on > > > > > behalf of the Government of the State, the Government of India or > > > > > the > > > > > Government of any other State in India or participates in anyway > in > > > > > the > > > > > profit thereof or in any benefit or emolument arising therefrom > > > > > otherwise > > > > > than as a member and in common with other members of an > incorporated > > > > > > > > > > company, he shall, for the purposes of sub-section (1), be deemed > to > > > > > be > > > > > guilty misbehavi-our. > > > > > > > > > > 131. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be regulations: > > > > > > > > > > (a) determine the number of members of the Commission and their > > > > > conditions > > > > > of service; and > > > > > > > > > > (b) make provision with respect to the num-ber of members of the > > > > > staff of > > > > > the Commission and - their conditions of service; > > > > > > > > > > Provided that the conditions of service of a member of the > > > > > Commission shall > > > > > not be varied to his disadvantage after his ap-pointment. > > > > > > > > > > 132. On ceasing to hold office the Chairman and the members of the > > > > > Commission shall be ineligible for further office under the > > > > > Government of > > > > > the State, but a member other than the Chairman shall be eligible > > > > > for > > > > > appointment as a Chairman of the Commission. > > > > > > > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this sec-tion; the office of > > > > > Minister or > > > > > Deputy Minister shall not be deemed to be an office under the > > > > > Government of > > > > > the state. > > > > > > > > > > 133. (1) It shall be the duty of the Commissions to conduct > > > > > examinations for > > > > > appointment to the services of the State. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Commission shall be consulted - > > > > > > > > > > (a) on all matters relating to methods of recruitment to civil > > > > > services and > > > > > for civil posts; > > > > > > > > > > (b) on the principles to be followed in making appointments to > civil > > > > > services and posts and in making promotions and transfers from one > > > > > service > > > > > to another and on the suitability of candidate for such > > > > > appointments, > > > > > promotions or transfers; > > > > > > > > > > (c) on all disciplinary matters affecting a person serving under > the > > > > > Government including memorials or petitions relating to such > > > > > matters; > > > > > and it shall be the duty of the Co... > > [Message clipped] -- SUNDARA BABU NAGAPPAN Mob: +91-9811744919 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 22:05:09 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 22:05:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=27Roots_in_Kashmir=92_condemns_NH?= =?windows-1252?q?RC=2C_International_Human_Rights_groups?= Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712090835q6eb2d9a6j450a84fa152591b2@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/%e2%80%98roots-in-kashmir%e2%80%99-condemns-nhrc-international-human-rights-groups/ From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 01:54:21 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 12:24:21 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Resistance activities in Karachi this week In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5af37bb0712091224y141255b9i26a008e5aa772887@mail.gmail.com> fwd Please note time/date of People's Resistance activities this coming week in Karachi: MONDAY, Dec 10 - Human Rights Day being observed as a 'black day' by HRCP, PFUJ/KUJ and People's Resistance 4 pm, Karachi Press Club - wear black. TUESDAY, Dec 11 - - 'Live with Talat' - featuring Talat Hussain, & Nusrat Javeed & Mushtaq Minhas (Bolta Pakistan) - these are shows/hosts of shows banned by the govt. Karachi Press Club - 2.00- 4.00 pm sharp Confirmed guests include Justices (r) Wajihuddin Ahmed, Fakhruddin G. Ebrahim, Majida Rizvi & Rasheed Rizvi (Prez. SHCBA) and Noor Naz Agha. FRIDAY, Dec 14 - The big rally - Join us to demand the Restoration of the Judiciary & the Media and Revoke the PCO. 4.00 pm - Meet at Regal Chowk, end at Press Club. All organisations, parties and individuals who support these demands are welcome. Bring your friends. Register your protest. Thank you & see you there. In solidarity, and on behalf of People's Resistance Sophia, Awab, Sabeen, Noman, Urooj, Yasir, Uzma, Anis, Asad, Afiya, Naeem, Beena, .... (please add your name here and pass this email on to your friends - thank you) From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 10:24:38 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:24:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandit children hold protest rally on the eve of International Human Rights Day Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712092054n1cd70edan743254ec94ce9db1@mail.gmail.com> Check out... http://www.hindustantimes.com/PhotoGallery/Photos_Storypage.aspx?category=Internationalhumanrightsday Kashmiri Pandit children hold protest rally on the eve of International Human Rights Day to condemn the failure of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) to address the grievances of the Pandit community in New Delhi on Sunday, December 9, 2007. *"Footprints on the sands of time are not made by sitting down."* From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 17:24:22 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:24:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Human Rights Day Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712100354va10fca5rd9f26206d3543f7f@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/%e2%80%98roots-in-kashmir%e2%80%99-condemns-nhrc-international-human-rights-groups/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 10:34:31 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:34:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pakistan Airlines Advt in 1979 & 9/11 Attack : Coincidence ? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712102104v4d121d3ds7424613b15243395@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2006/09/17/pakistan-airlines-advt-in-1979-911-attack-coincidence/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 10:34:31 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:34:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pakistan Airlines Advt in 1979 & 9/11 Attack : Coincidence ? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712102104v4d121d3ds7424613b15243395@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2006/09/17/pakistan-airlines-advt-in-1979-911-attack-coincidence/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 16:54:04 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:54:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mukto Mona Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712110324t449a9065rcc6733f5fb185e60@mail.gmail.com> http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/diganta_sarkar/kashmir.htm From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 11:33:02 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:33:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sickness In a new Frame Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712112203g1df71976la07d0bd9d5967a6f@mail.gmail.com> http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2007/12/sickness-in-new-frame.html From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 16:03:34 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:03:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [GreenYouth] Struggle against Bauxite Mining in Kasargod, Kerala Message-ID: <47625BFE.30106@gmail.com> Dear Friends We invite your kind attention to the burning issue of Bauxite mining in Kasaragod District (KSD) of Kerala. KSD is the northern most and most backward area of the state. But at the same time biologically and ecologically virgin area. A multinational company – Ashapura Mines based in Gujarat have approached the Govt. to get sanction for mining the bauxite. Company demanded following area for mining. 1046 acres in Kinnanoor village and 1300 acres of Karindalam village of Kinaanoor- Karindalam Grama Panchayat, 440 acres of Perole village of Nileshwar Grama Panchayat, 23 acres of Madikkai village of Madikkai Grama Panchayat and 291 acres of Koyippadi of Kumbla Grama Panchayat. The state Govt. has accorded sanction for bauxite mining in 200 acres of Kadalaadippara of Kinaanoor village, one of the proposed sites.But the mandatory EIA has not been conducted. The Govt. officials also trying to conduct the EIA very confidentially and illegally. The area is thickly populated by poor farmers and SC/ST families. If the project is undertaken the poor natives will be deprived of their very right to survive. This very serious problem has not considered at all. The mining would endanger the ecological balance and thereby the very life of the area. The people of the area have started indefinite Dharna strike at Kadalaadippara against mining. As a good sign, the struggle has transcended the boundaries of politics and other narrow constraints. The whole people of the area have come forwarded in the protest. However, the encroachers are big guns and there is a nexus of political leaders, beaureaucrats and the industry. The strike to be strengthened more to ensure success. We appeal the moral and other intervention of the like minded in this connection. Kindly help us by spreading the message to the maximum and sharing your potential in whatever way it might be. Thanking you, Babu chembena For details contact Babu chembena,Convenor, Anti bauxite mining committee, Chembena,Koodol,Kinaanoor P.O.,Birikkulam Via,Kasaragod District. Kerala Ph:9846771443 or Sudheerkumar.P.V, sudheer_nlr at yahoo.com, ph:09847768888. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. To post to this group, send email to greenyouth at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to greenyouth-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From asitredsalute at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 10:53:27 2007 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:53:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] nandigram taslima and identity politics-an appeal Message-ID: dear friends and comrades the grim communalization of events at Calcutta has deflected and disoriented the issue of dispossession of peasants in proposed sezs the present neoliberal offensive and the process of recolonisation both the organized left and right are increasingly becoming susceptible to fringe and lunatic communal out fits of all denominations this should be seen in the context of the ghastly carnage of Gujarat in the year 2002 the ram Janmbhumi and ram setu controversy where the entire country is held hostage to the diabolical designs of the Hindu fasict forces led by the sangh parivar while the trauma of communal violence can be backed to the partition with a long string of communal violence from jabbalpur tatanagar bhagalpur Varanasi Meerut Bombay and so on the politics of fascist rabid hindutva politics is obvious this hoever doesnt exonerate the soft hindutva poltics of congress giving issues to the sangh parivar on a platter.Thenandigram issue was about the dispossession of peasants and in the subsequent events the human rights violation the burning of houses sexual assaults on women and so on and these were very serious issues and demanded serious attention,the all india minority forum by demanding the expulsion of taslima from calcutta has put the issue of neoliberal depradtion and resulting dispossesion of peasantry on the back burner severly deflecting the bread and butter issues of the toiling workesrs and peasants by communalising the issue and seriously curtailing the burning issue of gender justice and right to expression in South Asia. Without falling in to the trap of Islamophobia and the discourse of so called one sided war on terror by US imperialism and it's NATO allies. One should seriously look at the issue of gender oppression and minority rights to expression etc in South Asia. This should be looked in the context of the incompleteness of democratic tasks and incomplete and fractured modernity in third world societies where the rulling elites have seriously compromised with medival, obscurantists, patrichial , Brahminical, revivalist feudal forces on the other hand opening of the countries for imperialist loot . It is really unfortunate that comrade Biman Bose asking Taslima nasreen to leave Calcutta though he reformulated his statement a day later. This is like playing in to the hand of revivalist,obscurantists ,muslim fundamentalist forces .the case of Taslima Nasreen is not only the issue of right to expression but the entire gamut gender justice in south asia.Taslima Nasreen has been articulating the medival oppression and centuries of suffering of Muslim women in Bangladesh & south asia and she has been hounted out of her own country.It is incumbent on the progressive democratic forces and especially the women's movement in his country to stand by her and demand that the government of India provides her residence and protection. The entire Taslima episode has to seen in the light of Muslim women in the country loosing thier grounds vis-a-vis the long pending gender justice and equal rights. Both the congress and the BJP have played a dirty game to deny democratic rights to Muslim women communal sing the issue and indulging in to the vote bank politics. Rajiv Gandhi seriuosly curtailed the rights of the muslim women in the wake of the Shah bano judgement of supreme court by passing the muslim women's bill playing in to the hands of muslim funadmentalist thus rolling back the issue of gender justice in muslim societies by decades.It has became a tough battle now. The BJP in equally opperrtunist communal stance has tried always in the troubled waters by demanding uniform civil code and now demanding citizenship rights for Taslima Nasreen on the other hand it shamelessly demand the expulsion of poor bangaladeshi workers and terrorising the entire muslim community in the country in to the second class citizenship and keeping them in the state of perpetual fear and insecurity . It is needless to repeat the horrifying tales of rape and murder in the communal riots the hands of sangh parivar is dripping with blood of innocent muslim man .women and childern.The gruesome blood bath in Gujrat 2002 is the blackest spot inpost independent Indiawhich has forced us to hang out heads in shame. It is high time the progressive ,democratic and the women's movement in India to look at the Taslima Nasreen incident and the issue of gender justice of muslim women in right earnest. In this context one should properly look at the issue of minority and majority communalism in proper perspective. Both minority communalism and majority communalism are two sides of the same coin. they seek to role back all the achivements of democratic movement and represent absolutely oppressive mediaval , revivalist ,obscurantist , patrichial forces wanting to recreate mediaval barbarism and slavery. Both hindu and muslim talibanism are extremely anti women and anti democratic. I in the light of the above we should look at identity politics in proper perspective, their are identities and identities : caste, gender,religeous, national, racial , sexual orientation and so on. Some are oppressed ,some are oppressors . There is democratic content in the liberation struggles of the oppressed identities like women, dalits , gays and lesbians , ethnic religeous and linguistic and national minorities and they should be firmly supported by the progressive and democratic movement while opposing the fasicist identity politics of hindutva represented by the sangh parivar , nazism, zionsism, white racism homophobia and so on. Therefore we appeal to all the progressive,democratic and women's orgnizations to stand by taslima nasreen and the struggle for equal rights of muslim women in south asia and give a decisive rebuff to obscrantist, revivalist , brahminical , communal,mediaval feudal forces . with revolutionary greetings. Asit From hpp at vsnl.com Fri Dec 14 11:26:29 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:26:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] correction - Patnaik etc Message-ID: <00e601c83e1e$6af066e0$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Dear Friends In my last post, there was an error. Instead of Com Badal Bose, the name should be Com Biman Bose. "...the complete immorality of the party, and its moral degeneration as had been vividly described by Com Badal Bose, a year ago, while addressing Calcutta district committee cadre who had assembled to commemorate the November revolution in Russia." Sincerely V Ramaswamy From rashneek at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 13:07:12 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:07:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pakistan's child militants (Times Now) Message-ID: <13df7c120712132337g111ef181gc839801a41ae6642@mail.gmail.com> A culture of weapons and reliance on schools that teach little but religion has fostered a growing wave of child militants preparing them for a murderous future in Pakistan. Problem is particularly severe in Pakistan's troubled tribal areas bordering Afghanistan and that it could become self-perpetuating. Young boys - some clearly under age 10 - wear black headbands bearing Islamic slogans and tote rifles that are nearly as big as they are appear in the video. It was not clear when the video was made or where. Child-protection experts said that poverty, a culture of weapons and reliance on schools that teach little but religion has fostered a growing wave of child militancy. It was said to be particularly acute in Pakistan's troubled tribal areas bordering Afghanistan but the problem is growing in other areas, such as southern Sindh province. Such groups have asserted growing control over Pakistan's impoverished northwest in recent years, challenging the authority of the state. Qazi Azmat, chairman of SPARC (Society for the Protection of the Rights of the Child) said an estimated 2,00,000 children under age 18 are serving in conflicts around the world. UNICEF statistics say two million children have been killed, six million maimed and more than a million orphaned by conflicts over the past decade. "In fact the violence that we see today and the unraveling of our social fabric is to a great extent a manifestation of our apathy and neglect and carelessness towards our children." he said. Doctor Attiya Inayatullah, a SPARC board member said any use or exploitation of a child is unacceptable. "We need to have a strong movement which says 'No' to child militancy," she said. Mariam Bibi, from Kohat, a town on the edge of the tribal belt in Northwest Frontier Province told AP Television the state bore some responsibility for the recent spread of militancy. "Unless they are so brainwashed or so disappointed that the government is not doing enough, how many mothers will agree to send their children for Jihad, to their deaths?" she said. One recent militant video showed a 16-year-old youth apparently beheading a soldier in lawless South Waziristan. Two 15-year-olds, jailed in the northwestern town of Bannu claimed they were trained to be suicide bombers, according to a professor at Islamabad's Quaid-e-Azam University. Reports persist in Pakistan of children kidnapped or pressured into becoming fighters, some lured by the promises of pay or drugs, while others are indoctrinated at an early age into believing they are becoming holy warriors for their faith. Even more are said to be forced into support roles or use as human shields. Part of the problem is the drastic shortage of quality education, several experts said. The gap is being filled by religious schools known as madrassas that often focus only on Islamic teachings with no modern subjects and TV-watching banned as a sin. Funded by charities or rich donors, some madrassas have been accused of promoting extremism. Many students live there because their parents can't afford to raise them. The result is that the children are raised with constant indoctrination and no role models other than militants and gangsters, says Pakistan's child protection society. Accused of apathy on the issue, virtually all of Pakistan's political parties are making education a prime plank of their campaign platforms for next month's parliamentary elections. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From dak at sarai.net Wed Dec 12 12:47:27 2007 From: dak at sarai.net (The Sarai Programme) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:47:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Baghdad Burning- A play by Aaranjan Message-ID: <475F8B07.4080208@sarai.net> The Aaranjan group is going to perform a play on the 21st, 22nd and 23rd of December 2007. The play, "Baghdad Burning" is based on a blog run by a young Iraqi girl who prefers to remain anonymous and calls herself Riverbend. The blog and the play deal with situation in Iraq after the occupation by the United States of America. Here are the details of the play: *Baghdad Burning* (Based on the blog run by Riverbend) Directed by: Kirti Jain Script: Shilpa Shukla Venue: *Abhimanch, National School of Drama, Bhagwan Das Road* Dates: *21, 22, 23 December, 2007* Time: *6.30 PM* *Presented by Aaranjan in association with Zubaan Books * Do forward this message to your friends and acquaintances. ** -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From loziq00 at iamas.ac.jp Thu Dec 13 14:25:59 2007 From: loziq00 at iamas.ac.jp (YOSUKE Kawamura) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:55:59 +0900 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Artist-in-Residence program at IAMAS, Japan Message-ID: Call for artists -------------------------------------------------------------- Artist-in-Residence program at IAMAS, Japan -------------------------------------------------------------- The Institute of Advanced Media Arts and Sciences and the International Academy of Media Arts and Sciences (IAMAS) conducts an Artists-in- Residence invitational program. We call for applications once a year. Now we are calling for the next term. Term: 6 month period between May 1. 2008 and March 31. 2009 1 person Deadline: December 31. 2007. Application Requirements 1.Applicants should be either artists or researchers with excellent track records as professionals in the field of media art. 2.Applicants should be able to speak either Japanese or English to the extent of being able to get by comfortably during their stay in Japan. 3.Applicants should be in good health. See the detail: http://www.iamas.ac.jp/E/AIR/application.html Inquiry: info at iamas.ac.jp ---------------- Yosuke Kawamura center for media culture IAMAS, institute of advanced media arts and sciences 3-95 ryoke-cho, ogaki city, gifu 503-0014 japan tel: +81-(0)584-75-6606 loziq00 at iamas.ac.jp _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From turbulence at turbulence.org Sun Dec 9 23:50:58 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 13:20:58 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] To Our Users Message-ID: <000a01c83a90$667367c0$335a3740$@org> Many of you may not realize that we are a tiny, not-for-profit organization. Helen and I spend much of our time raising funds from government and private foundations to commission networked art. Our mission is to support both emerging and established artists. There are very few resources for new media/networked art in the United States, which makes the process highly competitive. When we succeed, we are only entitled to use a very small percentage of the grants for server maintenance and administrative overhead, which translates into inadequate salaries for ourselves and our system administrator. Our passion for the field has fueled our commitment for many years, but we can no longer sustain Turbulence, Networked Performance and Networked Music Review without your help. We hope you value them enough to help us keep them alive. Please go to Turbulence (http://turbulence.org) and make a donation now. Sincerely, Jo and Helen Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 01:36:00 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:06:00 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [People'sResistance] Karachi rally brief report & pix; Muneer A. Malik update Message-ID: <5af37bb0712141206y56808ea3o1c79604387c14876@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Beena Sarwar Date: Dec 14, 2007 10:58 AM Having entrenched himself securely in the presidential chair, Musharraf appears to feel less threatened and has decided to allow rallies to take place without the police beating up participants. Time to show the world that there is freedom of association and political activity before the elections! Nice try. According to an AFP report, Hina Jillani today told a Congressional hearing that "...the election that is going to take place on January 8 has very little credibility. Under Pakistan's constitution and the law, the judiciary oversees the elections. "A judiciary that lacks the confidence of the people and has no credibility, how do you think the elections are going to be credible?" she asked. The most popular slogan at today's rally in Karachi was the catchy "Muk gaya tera show Musharraf, Go Musharraf, go Musharraf!" (Your show is over, Musharraf). He should definitely go – he has no business being in power, given that his position has no legitimacy – he was elected while still in uniform by an outgoing assembly with no mandate to elect him as president for the next five years. But even if he were to be miraculous out of the equation, the system he represents will continue – and that is what political parties and 'civil society' have to address. As long as the military continues to disenfranchise the people and run the show (bankrolled and supported by Washington for its own short term interests on 'the war on terror') and as long as our politicians continue to collude with the system without addressing the real issues of poverty, unemployment and education that the majority of Pakistanis face, Musharraf or no Musharraf, we will continue to lurch from crisis to crisis. MUNEER MALIK UPDATE: "Muneer Sahib is improving everyday. He even went to the passport office last Monday to get his passport extended. He might be discharged from the hospital very soon." KARACHI RALLY – pix up at http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/ (thanks Awab) - Well done, all those who worked so hard on getting together a show of strength in Karachi. It went smoothly & peacefully. The only downside was that the hired pickup with speakers leading it often went too fast (maybe pushed by the police who wanted the rally to end quickly) and that the event coincided with the Irtiqa seminar on the judiciary held at the Press Club (because of the rally date change), presided over by Minhaj Barna (who launched his book of poetry right before the Live with Talat event). Protesters started to assemble at Regal Chowk at around 4:00 pm. Within minutes the crowd swelled up to a few hundred under the watchful eyes of a dozen or so policemen. Participants shouted slogans against Musharraf and the Emergency and called for the restoration of the judiciary and media freedom. One constable watching the spectacle of diverse flags (including several Pakistan flags) and placards amidst the din of traffic and full-throated slogans told a journalist, "In our hearts we say the same thing as you. But what we are on duty and we can't join you." The diversity of the participants cut across the divisions of right- and left-wing politics, ethnicity, class, education and gender. People from various walks of life present ranged from lawyers, doctors, engineers, journalists, writers, to labourers, students, and housewives, as well as the families of the victims of enforced disappearances in Balochistan, brought to the rally by Baloch Students Organization (BSO) Azad and their dynamic chaddar-clad central executive committee member, Karima Baloch. Several political parties participated, including Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf, Awami Tehreek, PML-N (Shazia Faizi), National Worker's Party (Yusuf Mastikhan and Usman Baloch), Labour Party of Pakistan (LPP, Nasir Mansoor), International Socialists, Communist Mazdoor Kissan Party(CMKP), Pukhtoonkhawa Milli Awami Party (PMAP), Jamat-e-Islami, and Shabab-e-Milli. Other groups included Islamic Lawyer Forum, Railway Workers Federation, the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Aurat Foundation, Women's Action Forum (WAF), Democratic Labour Action Committee, and the PC Workers Union. Police officers initially refused to allow the rally participants to make their way in a procession through the crowded Saddar area to the Karachi Press Club barely a kilometer down the road, but had obviously been briefed not to use force. After some negotiations, they allowed the rally to proceed. An interesting mix of slogans was heard as leftist and right-wing parties marched sided by side, ranging from "Asia Surkh Hai!" (Asia is Red) to religious-oriented slogans. Participants held up placards featuring images of Che Guevara, the 'non-PCO judges', and the 'disappeared'. "This is the essence of democracy," remarked a participant. Akbar Shah, an elderly tourist guide in a shabby shalwar kurta and tennis shoes standing on the sidewalk raised his hands in appreciation as the rally turned towards the Press Club and talked aloud to himself, "Go Musharraf go, so nice, good slogans." Enthused by the crowd, he accompanied them to the Press Club where leaders from various parties addressed the gathering from the back of a hired pick-up vehicle. They condemned the illegitimate usurpation of power by Musharraf and urged for the restoration of Judiciary which can be the corner stone for the return of democracy in Pakistan. From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 01:55:41 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:25:41 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Pakistan's child militants (Times Now) In-Reply-To: <13df7c120712132337g111ef181gc839801a41ae6642@mail.gmail.com> References: <13df7c120712132337g111ef181gc839801a41ae6642@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0712141225k7367a604p1160d856e5952331@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rashneek, If you are quoting a report at length, a request to please also quote the writer or website/url for authenticity or to get more info may be helpful to us. for issues of the child SPARC is okay http://www.sparcpk.org/ best y On Dec 13, 2007 11:37 PM, rashneek kher wrote: > A culture of weapons and reliance on schools that teach little but > religion > has fostered a growing wave of child militants preparing them for a > murderous future in Pakistan. Problem is particularly severe in Pakistan's > troubled tribal areas bordering Afghanistan and that it could become > self-perpetuating. > > Young boys - some clearly under age 10 - wear black headbands bearing > Islamic slogans and tote rifles that are nearly as big as they are appear > in > the video. > It was not clear when the video was made or where. > > Child-protection experts said that poverty, a culture of weapons and > reliance on schools that teach little but religion has fostered a growing > wave of child militancy. > > It was said to be particularly acute in Pakistan's troubled tribal areas > bordering Afghanistan but the problem is growing in other areas, such as > southern Sindh province. Such groups have asserted growing control over > Pakistan's impoverished northwest in recent years, challenging the > authority > of the state. > > Qazi Azmat, chairman of SPARC (Society for the Protection of the Rights of > the Child) said an estimated 2,00,000 children under age 18 are serving in > conflicts around the world. UNICEF statistics say two million children > have > been killed, six million maimed and more than a million orphaned by > conflicts over the past decade. > > "In fact the violence that we see today and the unraveling of our social > fabric is to a great extent a manifestation of our apathy and neglect and > carelessness towards our children." he said. > > Doctor Attiya Inayatullah, a SPARC board member said any use or > exploitation > of a child is unacceptable. "We need to have a strong movement which says > 'No' to child militancy," she said. > > Mariam Bibi, from Kohat, a town on the edge of the tribal belt in > Northwest > Frontier Province told AP Television the state bore some responsibility > for > the recent spread of militancy. > > "Unless they are so brainwashed or so disappointed that the government is > not doing enough, how many mothers will agree to send their children for > Jihad, to their deaths?" she said. > > One recent militant video showed a 16-year-old youth apparently beheading > a > soldier in lawless South Waziristan. > > Two 15-year-olds, jailed in the northwestern town of Bannu claimed they > were > trained to be suicide bombers, according to a professor at Islamabad's > Quaid-e-Azam University. > > Reports persist in Pakistan of children kidnapped or pressured into > becoming > > fighters, some lured by the promises of pay or drugs, while others are > indoctrinated at an early age into believing they are becoming holy > warriors > for their faith. Even more are said to be forced into support roles or use > as human shields. > > Part of the problem is the drastic shortage of quality education, several > experts said. The gap is being filled by religious schools known as > madrassas that often focus only on Islamic teachings with no modern > subjects > and TV-watching banned as a sin. > > Funded by charities or rich donors, some madrassas have been accused of > promoting extremism. Many students live there because their parents can't > afford to raise them. > > The result is that the children are raised with constant indoctrination > and > no role models other than militants and gangsters, says Pakistan's child > protection society. > > Accused of apathy on the issue, virtually all of Pakistan's political > parties are making education a prime plank of their campaign platforms for > next month's parliamentary elections. > > -- > Rashneek Kher > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 11:13:22 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 11:43:22 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] 1000 Conflicts Now Message-ID: The Other Side Of India's Boom 1000 Conflicts Now There are two booms in India. With over 9% growth rate so far in 2007, India's economy is booming. India's other boom is in conflict. Instead of attempting to address the root causes of these conflicts, the State's tactics to deal with local conflicts are making things worse. In combating insurgency the State has not advanced much beyond the tactics of the British Empire. The response is based on the idea of "divide and rule": pitting one local group against another. The use of the vigilante groups has been traditionally limited to insurgency affected areas. But it is clear that the State has now extended these policies to counter protests against forcible land acquisitions that fuel India's industrialization..... Full report at http://www.achrweb.org/Review/2007/197-07.html From turbulence at turbulence.org Fri Dec 14 00:28:28 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:58:28 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Today on Networked_Music_Review Message-ID: <009d01c83dba$38db59d0$aa920d70$@org> Today on Networked_Music_Review http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/ Interview: Adam Nash http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/2007/12/13/interview-adam-nash/ Adam Nash is a new media artist, composer, programmer, performer and writer. He works primarily in networked real-time 3D spaces, exploring them as live audiovisual performance spaces. His sound/composition and performance background strongly informs his approach to creating works for virtual environments, embracing sound, time and the user as elements equal in importance to vision… Net_Music_Weekly: John Lifton's "Green Music" http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/2007/12/13/net_music_weekly-joh n-lifton/ Over the course of four days in June 1976, while open to the public, six large plants in the center of the glass Plant Conservatory in San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park, produced an audible, live digital music score, based on bio-electric sensing of their responses to light, temperature, movement and other physio-environmental factors (using gold needle electrodes at the base of the stem and root). Amid the ‘tropical garden’ stood a five foot high rack of audio and digital processing systems, including the just purchased, Altair 8800, which John was constantly (re)programming in Machine Language… NMR Commission: "BliK" by Roberto Osorio-Goenaga http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/2007/12/12/blik-by-roberto-osor io-goenaga/ BliK an interactive installation and networked musical composition method based on collaborative “Web 2.0″ principles. The composer / participant types directives / keywords - referencing one of the LEMUR ModBots - into a blog post to create a musical score. The LEMUR ModBots are a set of single-function percussive bots that work as a percussion ensemble... PLEDGE YOUR SUPPORT: If you would like to see Networked_Music_Review continue, please make a donation today (http://turbulence.org). No amount is too small. If every reader donated $5.00, we would be set for another year. THANK YOU. Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 * Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From turbulence at turbulence.org Sat Dec 15 21:02:03 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 10:32:03 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Networked_Music_Review Commission: "My Space Sound" by Sawako Kato Message-ID: <003901c83f2f$b7a7cf20$26f76d60$@org> December 15, 2007 Networked_Music_Review Commission: "My Space Sound" by Sawako Kato http://turbulence.org/works/MySpaceSound Needs Mac OSX, Flash player, and fast Internet connection "My Space Sound" is an audio popup book about the village called MySpace. The story starts like this: "Once upon a time . there was a village called MySpace. It is the era when so-called 'Web 2.0' is still a novelty." Users can participate in the story by entering their MySpace URL, as well as by just browsing the story. In a world composed of both facts and fictions extracted from the database, the audience gets a chance to rethink the chaotic social network space. ""My Space Sound" is the result of my fieldwork about MySpace, with some help from my friends. It is just a tiny point or node in a huge social network, and it is a starting point rather than an accomplishment. This is just my story, and I am curious to know your story. "My Space Sound" is the artistic observations and everyday sketches of the imperfect processor named sawako about the state of networks and individuals." "My Space Sound" is a 2007 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc. for Networked_Music_Review. It was made possible with funding from the New York State Music Fund, established by the New York State Attorney General at Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors. BIOGRAPHY As a musician, Sawako Kato has recently made a name for herself with her own unique combination of field recordings and DSP combined with a noticeably feminine touch. As a new media artist, she created "2.4GHz Scape," which explores the urban WiFi signal scape; "ishi ~ listening stone," a sound art piece that uses a crystal radio and stones, and an ephemeral timeline drawing with Max/MSP/Jitter. Sawako has solo releases from 12k, and/OAR and Anticipate, She has collaborated with a wide range of musicians such as Taylor Deupree, Andrew Deutsch, Kenneth Kirschner, Taku Sugimoto, Toshimaru Nakamura, asuna, Ryan Francesconi and Jacob Kirkegaard; and has performed in Tonic, Diapason, Roulette, Issue Project Room, Monkey Town (NYC); MUTEK Festival (Canada), Corcoran Gallery (Washington DC), UCLA Hammer Museum (LA), Batofar (Paris), Kunstraum Walcheturm (Zurich), offsite, Apple Store Sinsaibashi (Japan); m12 (Berlin), Glade Festival, Resonance FM, ICA (UK); and other venues in the US, Europe and Japan. For more Networked_Music_Review Commissions please visit http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/tags/nmr_commission Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 11:47:03 2007 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:47:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: draft on sez In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Asit asitreds Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:30 PM Subject: draft on sez To: marta gregorcic , marxclub at gmail.com, " mumbainapm at gmail.com" , "mohita27 at gmail.com" < mohita27 at gmail.com>, "moidul.islam at gmail.com" , " dr_mohanty at yahoo.com" , Surendra Mohanji < surendrasurendra at hotmail.com>, sanhatieast at sanhati.com, sanhatiindia at sanhati.com, "radhikamen at yahoo.com" , thisisnotriju at gmail.com, neha.hui at gmail.com, neha.jnu at gmail.com, " kavita73 at rediffmail.com" , "kavisriv at gmail.com" < kavisriv at gmail.com>, sansahil at gmail.com, "soch at vsnl.com" , " kritian at krititeam.org" , "ravi at theothermedia.org" < ravi at theothermedia.org>, "aid_rajeshwar at yahoo.com" , Rakhi Sehgal , "creative.rashid at gmail.com" < creative.rashid at gmail.com>, rakhi.trust at gmail.com, Priya Ranjan < priya at aidindia.org>, "rohit.prajapati at gmail.com" , "pradipinred at yahoo.com" , "pradeepdipu at rediffmail.com" , "ch.pratyush at gmail.com" , praveen.hrb at gmail.com, abdulhafiz gandhi , abhimanyu.che at gmail.com, Binayak Sen Raipur Chattishgharh < abinayak at gmail.com>, "dhirendrapanda at gmail.com" , Shripad Dharmadhikary , "andolan.sunitivinay at gmail.com" , anil chamadia , Anil chaudhary , antisez at gmail.com dear friends and comrades the special economic zones have become serious zones of conflict in rural India the peasantry is up in arms against their forcible dispossession for creating elite enclaves for the super rich the SEZS are logical culmination of the neo liberal policies pursued by the Indian ruling classes on behalf of national and international big business they are bloody inhuman early 21st century primitive accumulation where the direct producers are forced out of there means of production and and sustenance. this should be seen in the background of severe agrarian crisis where more than one lakh fiftythousand lakh farmers have committed suicide in the past decade I am sending you my preliminary observation on sezs based on a study of the resistance of farmers to the reliance mahamumbai sez in raigad distirct of maharastra pls send your criticisms and comments the main study will take one month to analyse the field data and draft the final reprt pls see the attachement with revolutionary greetings asit From babuubab at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 12:35:33 2007 From: babuubab at gmail.com (Babu Sundara) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:35:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: draft on sez In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66ec95310712152305k2b60ea97kaa9275648fae9894@mail.gmail.com> dear Asit, Thanks...could not get/find your mail attachment....please resend your mail/attachment. Regards, babu On 16/12/2007, Asit asitreds wrote: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Asit asitreds > Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:30 PM > Subject: draft on sez > To: marta gregorcic , marxclub at gmail.com, " > mumbainapm at gmail.com" , "mohita27 at gmail.com" < > mohita27 at gmail.com>, "moidul.islam at gmail.com" , " > dr_mohanty at yahoo.com" , Surendra Mohanji < > surendrasurendra at hotmail.com>, sanhatieast at sanhati.com, > sanhatiindia at sanhati.com, "radhikamen at yahoo.com" , > thisisnotriju at gmail.com, neha.hui at gmail.com, neha.jnu at gmail.com, " > kavita73 at rediffmail.com" , "kavisriv at gmail.com" < > kavisriv at gmail.com>, sansahil at gmail.com, "soch at vsnl.com" , > " > kritian at krititeam.org" , "ravi at theothermedia.org" < > ravi at theothermedia.org>, "aid_rajeshwar at yahoo.com" < > aid_rajeshwar at yahoo.com>, > Rakhi Sehgal , "creative.rashid at gmail.com" < > creative.rashid at gmail.com>, rakhi.trust at gmail.com, Priya Ranjan < > priya at aidindia.org>, "rohit.prajapati at gmail.com" < > rohit.prajapati at gmail.com>, > "pradipinred at yahoo.com" , " > pradeepdipu at rediffmail.com" > , "ch.pratyush at gmail.com" < > ch.pratyush at gmail.com>, > praveen.hrb at gmail.com, abdulhafiz gandhi , > abhimanyu.che at gmail.com, Binayak Sen Raipur Chattishgharh < > abinayak at gmail.com>, "dhirendrapanda at gmail.com" >, > Shripad Dharmadhikary , " > andolan.sunitivinay at gmail.com" > , anil chamadia , Anil > chaudhary , antisez at gmail.com > > dear friends and comrades > > > > the special economic zones have become serious zones of conflict in rural > India the peasantry is up in arms against their forcible dispossession for > creating elite enclaves for the super rich the SEZS are logical > culmination > of the neo liberal policies pursued by the Indian ruling classes on behalf > of national and international big business they are bloody inhuman early > 21st century primitive accumulation where the direct producers are forced > out of there means of production and and sustenance. this should be seen > in > the background of severe agrarian crisis where more than one lakh > fiftythousand lakh farmers have committed suicide in the past decade > > I am sending you my preliminary observation on sezs based on a study of > the > resistance of farmers to the reliance mahamumbai sez in raigad distirct > of > maharastra pls send your criticisms and comments the main study will take > one month to analyse the field data and draft the final reprt > > pls see the attachement > > with revolutionary greetings > > asit > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- SUNDARA BABU NAGAPPAN Mob: +91-9811744919 From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 10:46:14 2007 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:46:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dastangoi at DU-18th December Message-ID: Partition Dastans and The tale of Mahtab Jadu, Dastangoi at Shankar Lal Hall, Delhi University 18 December-4 pm. From gora at sarai.net Mon Dec 17 17:35:44 2007 From: gora at sarai.net (gora at sarai.net) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:35:44 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Free software (and other freedoms) event in Feb. 2008 Message-ID: <51955.59.180.75.191.1197893144.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> Hello, The Indian Linux Users Group, Delhi (ILUG-D) holds a free software event every year. We underwent a major rethinking on the target, and purpose of the event last September, as a result of which it has changed dramatically from an inward-looking event to one that is much more inclusive. While planning for this year's events, we were struck by the importance of the free flow of information in an open society, and thus thought to reach beyond our comfortable world of software to make common cause with people working in other areas, but sharing similar ideals and goals. Please take a look at the conceptualisation document for Freed.in 2008, scheduled to be held at the School of Information Technology, Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi during Feb. 22-25, 2008: We welcome your comments. As this is a Wiki page, it can be edited by anyone once you have signed up for a free account, and logged in (please use the Edit tab at the top-right). Regards, Gora ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 19:17:45 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 05:47:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Identify Yourself Gujarat! In-Reply-To: <0016364587300440f15673dfdb12164c@google.com> Message-ID: <506356.55999.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All, I am fine and hope the same with you. Hope you are all remember me. Its been long long time to appear here again. Its nice to see so many voices raising and providing instant solutions, on current scenario and day to day life. Any way this mail is a forward that I got is just for you all. Though I may not belong to gujarat, just would like to remind you that you cast your valuable vote. "theunderscoredhood at gmail.com" wrote: I've shared a document with you called "identifyourselfgujarat": http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dd8kpvmr_11cp7gc3hg&invite=d4j48bg It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. --- Please circulate, esp. in Gujarat. table { font-size: 1em; } div, address, ol, ul, li, option, select { margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; } p { margin: 0px; } body { padding: 0px; margin: 0px; } h6 { font-size: 10pt } h5 { font-size: 11pt } h4 { font-size: 12pt } h3 { font-size: 13pt } h2 { font-size: 14pt } h1 { font-size: 16pt } blockquote {padding: 10px; border: 1px #DDDDDD dashed } a img {border: 0} body { font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: normal; background-color: #ffffff; } This Election, for all of you in Gujarat, it's time to [ Identify Yourself! ] Who are you? Aap Kaun Ho? Just or Unjust, Peace loving or Hate Mongering, Lover or Loner... Cast your vote for Justice. The White Ribbon Campaign. Gujarat Assembly Election 2007. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 13:42:04 2007 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:42:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City: Ranjani Mazumdar: Discussion Event; Mumbai Message-ID: <48c2916d0712160012m36d2d458w983d403fc1031379@mail.gmail.com> *STARRING MUMBAI* * * Mumbai is the Capital of Bollywood but how does the city itself figure in Contemporary Cinema? Does Mumbai feature as an idea and as an inspiration for Hindi Movies? *Time Out Mumbai, the Katha Centre for Film Studies * and the *Bhawan Cultural Centre* Present a reading from *Ranjani Mazumdar's * * Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City* Published by *Permanent Black 2007* A Panel Discussion will follow the reading. Panelists include *Rohan Sippy* , director of *Bluff Master* and producer of *Taxi no. 9211* *Anurag Kashyap* , director of *Black Friday* and *No Smoking* *Sriram Raghavan* , director of *Johny Gaddar* and *Ek Hasina Thi* *Jaideep Sahani* , screenwriter of *Chakde* and *Company* *Ranjani Mazumdar* , associate professor of Cinema Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University *December 22nd, * *6.30 p.m*** *S.P Jain Institute of Management and Research * *Bhawan's College* *Munshi Nagar* *Andheri West* -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From ravikant at sarai.net Sun Dec 16 21:15:33 2007 From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 21:15:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Starring Mumbai - Dec 22nd/6.30 pm Message-ID: <200712162115.33602.ravikant@sarai.net> *STARRING MUMBAI* * * Mumbai is the Capital of Bollywood but how does the city itself figure in Contemporary Cinema? Does Mumbai feature as an idea and as an inspiration for Hindi Movies? *Time Out Mumbai, the Katha Centre for Film Studies* and the *Bhawan Cultural Centre* Present a reading from *Ranjani Mazumdar's* *Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City* Published by *Permanent Black 2007* A Panel Discussion will follow the reading. Panelists include *Rohan Sippy*, director of *Bluff Master* and producer of *Taxi no. 9211* *Anurag Kashyap*, director of *Black Friday* and *No Smoking* *Sriram Raghavan*, director of *Johny Gaddar* and *Ek Hasina Thi* *Jaideep Sahani*, screenwriter of *Chakde* and *Company* *Ranjani Mazumdar*, associate professor of Cinema Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University *December 22nd, **6.30 p.m*** *S.P Jain Institute of Management and Research* *Bhawan's College* *Munshi Nagar* *Andheri West* ------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 01:42:37 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:12:37 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Proclamation of Emergency and CPO in United States Message-ID: <5af37bb0712171212i5e1f3a66g744173c3e66479ec@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: naeem sadiq Proclamation of Emergency and CPO in United States November 3, 2007 Chief of Staff US Army, General George Tracy today issued a proclamation declaring Emergency, suspending the 1787 US Constitution, dismissing all judges of the superior courts, placing Supreme Court Chief Justice John H Roberts. under house arrest, placing a ban on media, and taking away fundamental human rights of all US citizens. He also arrested the President of the American Bar Association William Lukenorm and four other prominent attorneys and sent them to the Guantanamo Bay's Detention Camp X-Ray. He issued executive orders that despite being a serving military General, he is eligible to contest elections for the post of the President of USA . He then went to the outgoing US Congress and asked them to give him a vote of confidence, if they know what is good for them. He then declared himself the President of USA for next five years. In order to ensure continuity of justice , he reduced the age of judges and picked up sixty odd youngsters , who were duly bribed or coerced to take oath under the new rules made by the Chief of the Army Staff. These rules are called CPO or Chief's Personal Orders, and these judges referred to as CPO judges. Many countries of the world have indicated grave concern over the new developments in USA and expressed hope that General Tracy would soon have the country back on the path of democracy. December 15, 2005 General George Tracy today removed the state of emergency, lifted CPO and restored the US constitution. However before its restoration, the following changes were made to the constitution. Actions of declaring the emergency and proclamation of CPO were legal orders and can neither be challenged nor require a ratification by the Congress. Actions of sacking all judges and putting them under house were legal orders and can neither be challenged nor require a ratification by the Congress. The new judges who took oath under the Chief's Personal Orders (CPO) are the legal judges of USA and this action can neither be challenged nor requires a ratification by the next Congress. A serving military General who has taken oath not to take part in politics and to uphold the constitution can now violate, suspend or amend the constitution in what ever manner he feels like and these actions can neither be challenged nor require a ratification by the Congress. Many countries of the world have expressed great satisfaction at the restoration of constitution in USA and have expressed hope that the country would soon be back on the path of full democracy. Meanwhile Leaders of Democratic and Republican parties have assured General Tracy of their full support and complete participation in the next general elections scheduled to be held on January 8, 2008. _______________________________________________ All mailing list All at talk.pakvoices.net http://talk.pakvoices.net/listinfo.cgi/all-pakvoices.net From tbd.lists at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 08:26:21 2007 From: tbd.lists at gmail.com (Dinesh, Servelots) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:26:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jinan in delhi at Nature Bazar, Delhi haat, 19-23 Message-ID: <4573cd0e0712171856k2e49ca6el93b986bcaee348c@mail.gmail.com> Jinan, this year, has been talking about his project of enabling artisans. Some of you on this list would be interested in do-nothing methodologies. Do get in touch with him, his email in cc... or better.. do-nothing? (Guess he wants to do something with his do-nothing method!) -d -- "Initiating collaboration between the Community and the Artisans" The Enabling Artisans project is designed to enable the children of traditional artisans to take forward their skills as a viable livelihood option by equipping them with necessary skills. The project will develop entrepreneurship, communication, designing ability, functional computer and accounting abilities, as well as providing participants with a basic tools and equipment and linking them with relevant players. The project is built around Mr. K.B. Jinan's 'do nothing method', in which he does not teach artisans but rather creates conditions in which they can develop unique and innovative designs that build on and expand traditional craft techniques. For more information on the Enabling Artisans project and Mr. Jinan's work, visit: http://my.opera.com/enableartisan/blog/ http://groups.google.com/group/enableartisan http://www.kumbham.in From anansi1 at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 11:57:00 2007 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 1:27:00 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Hey from Paul/Dj Spooky - Antarctica! Message-ID: Hey you all - I leave for Antarctica today, so things are very hectic! If you have a moment, check out the trailer for the film I'm going to shoot there: Every sound in the film will be made from the sound of ice (environmental, geological, magnetic, atmospheric etc). I'm bringing a mini-studio with me to edit, shoot, and score the film. It headlines Sundances Digital Film section this January. Check it out! Small promo (32mb): Low res http://djspooky.com/media/djspooky_antarctic_promo_small.mov Large promo (177mb): High Res http://djspooky.com/media/djspooky_antarctic_promo_large.mov I get back the 2nd week of January. I want to wish you all a very Happy New Years! in peace, Paul aka DJ Spooky From asitredsalute at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 17:22:30 2007 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:22:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] draft on special economic zones Message-ID: *The Simmering Dissent in the Indian Countryside – The Story of Special Economic Zones.* Asit The Special Economic Zones have become serious zones of conflict in rural India. The ghastly blood-bath at Nandigram was a stark indicator of the discontent raging through the Indian countryside, there the West Bengal State Police fired on the protesting farmers, who didn't want to part with their lands, which the West Bengal Government had proposed for a Special Economic Zone to be promoted by the Salim Group of Industries of Indonesia. Apart from Nandigram, farmers have been protesting all over the country against the forcible acquisition of their land for the proposed SEZs. Some of the prominent zones of conflict vis-à-vis are Jagatsinghpur, Orissa against proposed Posco SEZ, Kakinada in Andhra Pradesh, Jhahar in Haryana against the proposed large SEZ by Reliance Industries, Karla area in Pune district in Maharashtra. Of late, there is news of farmers' protest from various SEZs from Gujarat and Tamilnadu, as well. Under the rubric of Globalization, when the neo-liberal offensive is devastating the 'Culture and Commons' of the indigenous people of India appropriating the land of the peasants in this process, thousands of acres of land have been taken away from people, forcibly dispossessing millions of Aadiwasis and Farmers in the name of high GDP growth and attracting foreign direct investments. The whole issue of Special Economic Zones has to be seen in the context of cataclysmic changes taking place in the global scale which had devastating impact on third world societies. Much has been written on the global restructuring by Civil Society Groups and the Political Left. India shared the fate of most of the Third World societies where the national liberation movements inspired hopes for millions of peasants that they can lead a life of dignity free from the colonial yoke. The post-independent journey of India started with a vision of self reliance and egalitarianism with the state whose elected executives would play the role of prime-movers. The Nehru Era saw 'Abolition of Landlordism and Investment in Irrigation'. Land Reforms released the forces of production in the countryside and the coming in of the Green Revolution brought in relative prosperity in rural areas of Punjab, Haryana, Western U.P. and Coastal Andhra, where high input intensive agriculture was adopted. This path of "Nehruian" Model of growth had a flip side which the mainstream Media concealed until social movements like Narmada Bachao, Koel Karo , Kalinganagar, Kashipur, Kalahandi, Tehri, etc. bought the other side of post-independent rural reality and the simmering discontent. This path of heavy industrialization and emphasis on modern infra-structures created massive displacement. According to various sources, by mid-nineties, there were more than 40 million farmers and Aadiwasis who were displaced by various mega projects like dams, mines, factories and industrial township. This is a whooping and revealing figure of the number of people displaced which was more than the population of England. As mentioned earlier, social movements like Narmada and Tehri were indicators of the refusal of rural masses to part with their land and homes in the name of development. As a result of global restructuring. The Indian rulers adopted the neo-liberal ideology ushered in through the new economic policies of 1991. All the welfare provisions, concept of self-reliance, pro-farmers and labor regimes were gradually dismantled, leaving vulnerable segments of the population like women, dalits, farmers, Aadiwasis, etc. at the mercy of the market. Thus, market became the new god in the era of Globalization. The Indian rulers who had completely turned neo-liberal in the new millennium adopted the Special Economic Zone Policy when the entire country was undergoing acute agrarian crisis, the most horrifying symptom of which was the high number of incidences of farmers committing suicide by mid 2005 more than 1.5lakh ( hundred and fifty thousand ) farmers had committed suicide , this phenomenon goes on unabated till today. Agriculture is having its lowest growth rate since past five years . The Massive and forceful acquisition of land had accelerated the on going misery and marginalization of the rural population. As result farmers are up in arms. Special Economic Zones were the logical culmination of anti-people, anti-Farmers path pursued by the Indian rulers which has other hazards apart from the massive dispossession of the farmers and rural artisans. Large scale land acquisition for Mega-Industrial projects, infrastructure projects and SEZs is transforming the whole of the rural scenario in the country from bad to worse. To cover up the devastation, the State Governments are half- heartedly bringing rehabilitation and re-settlement policies. The land acquisition by the Government ostensibly in the name of Public Interest, is in fact transferring thousands of acres of fertile land to Multi-national Mega Corporations like Posco, Salim and Indian big business houses likes Tata, Jindal, Ambani and Birla. Through this process of displacement, land and livelihoods are being alienated from the farmers and other sections of the population, as mentioned earlier. Tens of millions of farmers and rural artisans have already been displaced in the name of development. Displacement has converted farmers, Adiwasis and rural artisans into destitutes most of whom have been forced to become casual workers in urban centres without any rights. Fear of displacement from their homes, from their lands and livelihoods, from their community and thought of living the rest of their lives as destitutes has suddenly become a reality for vast masses of India. The very people, who according to the Government are supposed to be benefiting from so called Industrialization in the form of R & R benefits, jobs urban facilities, social and hospitals etc. are seen to be opposing these policies the most. The fact is that no State Government to have the intention and capacity for the rehabilitation of the displaced people. The land grabbing through displacement is not only restricted to the rural areas. In the urban areas, the slum dwellers are being forcibly evicted to make way for city, beautification and gentrification, establishment of huge malls, real estate development, widening of roads etc. often without any compensation and alternate dwelling place for slum dwellers. The slum dwellers of most of the large cities are now resorting to protest movements against their growing dispossession and marginalization. The establishment of SEZs is playing havoc with the rural population of India. Primarily India is an agricultural country and more than 70% of Indian people are dependent on agriculture and its ancillary activities. To develop India any sensible policy will have to develop agriculture sector. But for the past 60 years, The Indian ruling elite have never seriously attempted apart from the high tech Green Revolution package, no attempt was made to upgrade agricultural land both availability and quantitatively by disturbing arable waste land to the poor and creating irrigation facilities. Such measures would have increased agricultural production making farmers prosperous which would have created demand for manufactured goods and stimulated industrialization with employment opportunities, but instead today the Indian agriculture is facing its worst crisis. The development of India is impossible without the development of agriculture as in most villages of India agriculture and allied livelihoods such as fishing, animal husbandry, forestry are the only sustainable livelihoods for the majority of the people. Today the Government is unable to provide any other sustainable livelihood after taking away land and common property resources such as forests, streams, ponds, grazing lands, etc. which are the basis of agriculture and allied occupation. Implementation of pro-agri-business agricultural policies in the name of Green Revolution imposition of GM seeds, contract farming and corporate control of agricultural sector are the basic elements of the neo-liberal agriculture policies which is extremely harmful for most of the farmers and rural artisans. Farmers' suicides are serious indications of this agrarian situation. This grave crisis will also have a serious impact on food security for Indian rural population which is, anyway, under tremendous strain. Therefore, the rural population is up in arms to save their agricultural land, livelihood, common property resources like forests, sources of water etc. We have to seriously campaign and support the struggle for protection and restoration of Indian agriculture. There is a necessity for instilling confidence amongst farmers and rural artisans for alternative development models is possible different groups across India are trying to implement alternate development models on a small scale, different political forces, mass movements and civil society groups working with people have their own version of alternative development models on a small scale, different political forces, mass movements and civil society groups working with people have their own version of alternative development models. The farmers have realized that even in the prevailing situation of agrarian crisis gripping the country there is no other option but to stick to agriculture and allied occupations. Industrial development of India has to be in the interest of the masses and it can only happen on the basis of development of agriculture and the rural economy on the whole. Therefore, the demand should be the development of agriculture and rural economy in the interest of the vast masses of India. The forcible displacement of the people from their lands and livelihoods for establishment of mega- industries and infra-structural projects and establishments of exclusive economic enclaves by multi-national corporations and Indian big business in the name of SEZs is the anti- poor, pro-national and Inter-national Big Business. The Government of India has adopted policies which have left the urban and rural poor including the medium farmers and urban lower middle classes in a precarious situation when for even the basic necessities of life people have increasingly become dependent on the market forces, which again are controlled by the National and Inter-national big business houses viz. World Bank, IMF, WTO, etc. The industrialization policy of the Government is not aimed at supplementing the production capacity of those products which are in demand by the masses, nor it is creating any additional employment for the vast army of unemployed of the country as Mega- industries which are encouraged by the Government and are established by the Global and Indian big business are high-tech automated industries, having a very low employment prospect. On the other hand, such industries are responsible for large scale displacement and massive loss of employment. The present emphasis is on those industries which would exhaust the mineral resources of India in next 3 to 4 decades, while these semi-finalized and low value added intermediate products will be exported for manufacturing high and costly products which will be again imported to India at a huge cost. This anti-farmer-pro-big-business-industrial and mining policy is encouraging establishment of huge mineral based industries, industrial infrastructures like roads, rail, power plant, water treatment plant, townships, SEZs, smart cities, EPZs, etc. Especially the SEZs have resulted in farmers losing their land and livelihoods. Massive unemployment is being caused, natural resources are being exhausted at a rapid rate and nature is getting devastated. The implementation of SEZ plicy is leading to creation of exclusive zones where no laws of land are there to protect the rights of the labour and that of the farmers. Infact these laws are anti-people. This path of industrialization that is displacing vast masses of the farmers and rural artisans, will spell disaster for the country as a whole. Therefore, the establishment of SEZ is playing havoc with the lives of the entire rural population including the adiwasis. This path of industrialization through Foreign Direct Investment and Foreign Institutional Investment have given priority for establishing SEZs throughout India solely for the super profits of the International and National big business. For the establishment of SEZs, the various state Governments have ruthlessly used the "Colonial 1894 Land Acquisition Act", forcibly evacuating people, destroying their cultural moorings, social peace and livelihood, all in the name of growth, while on the other hand SEZs which have been described as a foreign territory in the SEZ Act of 2005 have been given the status of separate enclaves where no law of the land or Constitutional provisions will apply. The development commissioner appointed by the State Government will govern the SEZ with private security, own laws and own regimes of justice and maintenance of law and order. Neither the Civil Laws and Labor Laws nor any other laws of land will be honored in these enclaves. This status of separate foreign territories enables the corporate houses to exploit labor ruthlessly. Working conditions will be deteriorated; working hours will be arbitrarily increased to 12 to 14 hours. No work safety measures will be taken. Since the work in these zones is given to contractors, the workers will be paid low wages. No payments for weekly offs, no lease with wages, no medical leave, no Provident Fund, no ES, no recreational facilities, no gratuity, almost no social security will be provided to the workers. Accidents in the work places are bound to increase. No workmen's compensation will be paid. Women workers will be even more exploited. The SEZs are the most advanced and deadliest weapons of the neo-liberal re-structuring apart from dispossessions of millions of farmers and artisans it devastates their cultural milieu and these enclaves here no laws of land will apply is akin to re-colonization of the Third World. The massive outburst of anger of the people of Nandigram, the ongoing struggle against POSCO SEZ in Jagatsinghpur, Orissa , the struggle in Raigar and many other places and the country–wide resistance against forcible acquisition of land by the Government for the SEZs to be developed by Indian and International big businesses has forced the Government of India to announced the rulers under the SEZ Act 2005, according to which the private corporate sector will purchase land straight from the farmers even after this decision of the Government of India everywhere Police is intervening on behalf of the corporate sector the case in point is struggle against the Korean giant POSCO SEZ in Orissa. After the local people confronted the Posco officials, the police intervened on behalf of Posco with an intention of terrorizing the people and forcing them to surrender their land, these interventions of police force on behalf of the corporate sector against struggling farmers happens all over India, the list is endless. This exposes the dual face of the Central and State Government, who go out of their way to acquire land for the corporate sector while mouthing pro-people platitude in public platforms and legislatures. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In the light of the above importance of the peasant resistance to the Special Economic Zones, a study was undertaken to understand the concrete reasons of farmers' opposition to the SEZs. The Maha-mumbai SEZ promoted by Reliance Industries in Raigad District in Maharashtra and the Mahindra and Mahidra SEZ promoted by Mahindra Group at Karla in Pune District of Maharashtra were selected for the study. The field work was done between 20th, July, 2007 and 5th, September, 2007. The methodology adopted was 'Qualitative" interviews of respondents from different castes, occupations and gender in the Panvel, Pan and Uran Tehsils of Raigad Diatricts and of 6 villages in Karla area of Maval Tehsil of Pune district. In the next 20 days, the field data will be analyzed and the report will be drafted. Pls send ur comments to asitredsalute at gmail.com From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 05:58:13 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 05:58:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Tribunal_to_amplify_tsunami_survivors?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99_plight?= Message-ID: <4768659D.5050505@gmail.com> Tribunal to amplify tsunami survivors’ plight ------------------------------------------------------------------ PEOPLES’ TRIBUNAL ON TSUNAMI REHABILITATION TO BE HELD IN CHENNAI ON 21ST AND 22ND DECEMBER CHENNAI: A People’s Tribunal on the status of tsunami rehabilitation will be organised by Voices from the Margins at ICSA centre, Jeevana Jyothi campus, Opposite Egmore Museum, Chennai on December 21st and 22nd 10 am to 5.30 pm. voices from the Margins is a broad platform of organisations of marginalized communities and support groups. This tribunal is an outcome of a recent study by Voices from the Margins that exposed several discrepancies and shortcomings in tsunami rehabilitation. The tribunal aims to conduct an impartial and independent enquiry on tsunami rehabilitation after three years and to compile a policy report based on the testimonies by the affected people, observations of experts and community leaders. This report will be submitted to concerned state departments and donor groups that supported tsunami rehabilitation. The People’s Tribunal will have a jury consisting of eminent persons including Justice Mr. H. Suresh (retired judge, Mumbai High Court) , Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer (eminent social activist and winner of Right to Livelihood award), Dr. K.N.Panikkar (historian and former vice Chancellor, Sankaracharya University) and Dr.Yasodha Shanmugasundaram (former vice Chancellor, Mother Teresa Women’s University). The jury will be assisted by a panel of experts on various issues related to tsunami disaster, relief and rehabilitation, including Dr.R.K.Sivanappan, Mr. Ossie Fernandez, Advocate Henri Tiphagne, Dr. P.V. Unnikrishnan, Mr. Vasudevraju, Prof Ms.V.Kadhambari, Ms. Chaman Pincha, Dr. Constantin Varidaiah and Mr. Sumesh Mangalassery. The outcome of the people’s tribunal will be submitted to the Prime Minister of India, Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu and Pondicherry, and donors. It will be used as policy paper to bring effective changes in the final phase of tsunami rehabilitation. Several civil society organizations have come forward to take part in and support the People’s Tribunal. Poet Ms Malathy Maithri and S.M.Prithiviraj are the conveners of Pondicherry and Tamilnadu respectively. Contact: Mobile : 9843080963, 9443090175 & 9444224866 E-mail: voicesfromthemargins at gmail.com Web: http://voicesfromthemargins.com From sampathlives at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 00:30:56 2007 From: sampathlives at gmail.com (Sampath G) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 00:30:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 53, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9bf30d340712181100u59a3baa9nac53f4974183bf62@mail.gmail.com> The situation described here is as true as it is depressing. In the name of growth and development, we are totally eliminating all kinds of subsistence economies, which do have a role to play and right to exist. The SEZ is a man-made paradise for capital - to grow and multiply, where it can consume human labour in peace and spit out deadened, desiccated lives. I'd like to have a copy of the final report when it is ready. Sampath On 12/18/07, reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote: > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Identify Yourself Gujarat! (we wi) > 2. [Announcements] Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City: > Ranjani Mazumdar: Discussion Event; Mumbai (Aarti Sethi) > 3. [Announcements] Starring Mumbai - Dec 22nd/6.30 pm (Ravikant) > 4. Proclamation of Emergency and CPO in United States (yasir ~) > 5. Jinan in delhi at Nature Bazar, Delhi haat, 19-23 > (Dinesh, Servelots) > 6. Hey from Paul/Dj Spooky - Antarctica! (Paul D. Miller) > 7. draft on special economic zones (Asit asitreds) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 05:47:45 -0800 (PST) > From: we wi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Identify Yourself Gujarat! > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: <506356.55999.qm at web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear All, > > I am fine and hope the same with you. Hope you are all remember me. > Its been long long time to appear here again. Its nice to see so many > voices raising and providing instant solutions, on current scenario and day > to day life. > > Any way this mail is a forward that I got is just for you all. > Though I may not belong to gujarat, just would like to remind you that you > cast your valuable vote. > > > > "theunderscoredhood at gmail.com" wrote: > I've shared a document with you called "identifyourselfgujarat": > http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dd8kpvmr_11cp7gc3hg&invite=d4j48bg > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this > document, just click the link above. > --- > > Please circulate, esp. in Gujarat. > > table { font-size: 1em; } div, address, > ol, ul, li, option, select { margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; > } p { margin: 0px; } body { padding: 0px; > margin: 0px; } h6 { font-size: 10pt } h5 { > font-size: 11pt } h4 { font-size: 12pt } h3 { font-size: 13pt } h2 > { font-size: 14pt } h1 { font-size: 16pt } blockquote {padding: > 10px; border: 1px #DDDDDD dashed } a img {border: 0} > body { font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12.0pt; > line-height: normal; background-color: #ffffff; } > > This Election, for all of you in Gujarat, it's time to > > > > > [ Identify Yourself! ] > > > Who are you? > Aap Kaun Ho? > > > > > Just or Unjust, > Peace loving or Hate Mongering, > Lover or Loner... > > > Cast your vote for Justice. > > > > > > The White Ribbon Campaign. > Gujarat Assembly Election 2007. > > > > > > > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:42:04 +0530 > From: "Aarti Sethi" > Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Bombay Cinema: An Archive of > the City: Ranjani Mazumdar: Discussion Event; Mumbai > To: announcements at sarai.net > Message-ID: > <48c2916d0712160012m36d2d458w983d403fc1031379 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > *STARRING MUMBAI* > > * * > > Mumbai is the Capital of Bollywood but how does the city itself figure in > Contemporary Cinema? Does Mumbai feature as an idea and as an inspiration > for Hindi Movies? > > > > *Time Out Mumbai, the Katha Centre for Film Studies * and the *Bhawan > Cultural Centre* > > Present a reading from *Ranjani Mazumdar's * > > > > * Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City* > > Published by > > *Permanent Black 2007* > > > > A Panel Discussion will follow the reading. Panelists include > > > > *Rohan Sippy* , director of *Bluff Master* and producer of *Taxi no. 9211* > > *Anurag Kashyap* , director of *Black Friday* and *No Smoking* > > *Sriram Raghavan* , director of *Johny Gaddar* and *Ek Hasina Thi* > > *Jaideep Sahani* , screenwriter of *Chakde* and *Company* > > *Ranjani Mazumdar* , associate professor of Cinema Studies at Jawaharlal > Nehru University > > > > *December 22nd, * *6.30 p.m*** > > *S.P Jain Institute of Management and Research * > > *Bhawan's College* > > *Munshi Nagar* > > *Andheri West* > -------------- next part -------------- > _______________________________________________ > announcements mailing list > announcements at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 21:15:33 +0530 > From: Ravikant > Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Starring Mumbai - Dec 22nd/6.30 > pm > To: announcements at sarai.net > Message-ID: <200712162115.33602.ravikant at sarai.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > *STARRING MUMBAI* > > * * > > Mumbai is the Capital of Bollywood but how does the city itself figure in > Contemporary Cinema? Does Mumbai feature as an idea and as an inspiration > for Hindi Movies? > > > > *Time Out Mumbai, the Katha Centre for Film Studies* and the *Bhawan > Cultural Centre* > > Present a reading from *Ranjani Mazumdar's* > > *Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City* > > Published by > > *Permanent Black 2007* > > > > A Panel Discussion will follow the reading. Panelists include > > > > *Rohan Sippy*, director of *Bluff Master* and producer of *Taxi no. 9211* > > *Anurag Kashyap*, director of *Black Friday* and *No Smoking* > > *Sriram Raghavan*, director of *Johny Gaddar* and *Ek Hasina Thi* > > *Jaideep Sahani*, screenwriter of *Chakde* and *Company* > > *Ranjani Mazumdar*, associate professor of Cinema Studies at Jawaharlal > Nehru University > > > > *December 22nd, **6.30 p.m*** > > *S.P Jain Institute of Management and Research* > > *Bhawan's College* > > *Munshi Nagar* > > *Andheri West* > > ------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > announcements mailing list > announcements at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:12:37 -0800 > From: "yasir ~" > Subject: [Reader-list] Proclamation of Emergency and CPO in United > States > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > <5af37bb0712171212i5e1f3a66g744173c3e66479ec at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: naeem sadiq > > > > > Proclamation of Emergency and CPO in United States > > > > November 3, 2007 > > > > Chief of Staff US Army, General George Tracy today issued a > proclamation declaring Emergency, suspending the 1787 US > Constitution, dismissing all judges of the superior courts, placing > Supreme Court Chief Justice John H Roberts. under house arrest, > placing a ban on media, and taking away fundamental human rights of > all US citizens. He also arrested the President of the American Bar > Association William Lukenorm and four other prominent attorneys and > sent them to the Guantanamo Bay's Detention Camp X-Ray. He issued > executive orders that despite being a serving military General, he is > eligible to contest elections for the post of the President of USA . > He then went to the outgoing US Congress and asked them to give him a > vote of confidence, if they know what is good for them. He then > declared himself the President of USA for next five years. In order to > ensure continuity of justice , he reduced the age of judges and picked > up sixty odd youngsters , who were duly bribed or coerced to take > oath under the new rules made by the Chief of the Army Staff. These > rules are called CPO or Chief's Personal Orders, and these judges > referred to as CPO judges. > > Many countries of the world have indicated grave concern over the > new developments in USA and expressed hope that General Tracy would > soon have the country back on the path of democracy. > > > > > > December 15, 2005 > > > > General George Tracy today removed the state of emergency, lifted CPO > and restored the US constitution. However before its restoration, > the following changes were made to the constitution. > > Actions of declaring the emergency and proclamation of CPO were legal > orders and can neither be challenged nor require a ratification by the > Congress. > Actions of sacking all judges and putting them under house were > legal orders and can neither be challenged nor require a ratification > by the Congress. > The new judges who took oath under the Chief's Personal Orders (CPO) > are the legal judges of USA and this action can neither be challenged > nor requires a ratification by the next Congress. > A serving military General who has taken oath not to take part in > politics and to uphold the constitution can now violate, suspend or > amend the constitution in what ever manner he feels like and these > actions can neither be challenged nor require a ratification by the > Congress. > > > > Many countries of the world have expressed great satisfaction at the > restoration of constitution in USA and have expressed hope that the > country would soon be back on the path of full democracy. > > > > Meanwhile Leaders of Democratic and Republican parties have assured > General Tracy of their full support and complete participation in the > next general elections scheduled to be held on January 8, 2008. > > _______________________________________________ > All mailing list > All at talk.pakvoices.net > http://talk.pakvoices.net/listinfo.cgi/all-pakvoices.net > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:26:21 +0530 > From: "Dinesh, Servelots" > Subject: [Reader-list] Jinan in delhi at Nature Bazar, Delhi haat, > 19-23 > To: "sarai list" > Cc: Jinan kb > Message-ID: > <4573cd0e0712171856k2e49ca6el93b986bcaee348c at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Jinan, this year, has been talking about his project of enabling artisans. > Some of you on this list would be interested in do-nothing methodologies. > Do get in touch with him, his email in cc... or better.. do-nothing? > (Guess he wants to do something with his do-nothing method!) > > -d > > -- > "Initiating collaboration between the Community and the Artisans" > > The Enabling Artisans project is designed to enable the children of > traditional artisans to take forward their skills as a viable > livelihood option by equipping them with necessary skills. The project > will develop entrepreneurship, communication, designing ability, > functional computer and accounting abilities, as well as providing > participants with a basic tools and equipment and linking them with > relevant players. > > The project is built around Mr. K.B. Jinan's 'do nothing method', in > which he does not teach artisans but rather creates conditions in > which they can develop unique and innovative designs that build on and > expand traditional craft techniques. > > For more information on the Enabling Artisans project and Mr. Jinan's > work, visit: > http://my.opera.com/enableartisan/blog/ > http://groups.google.com/group/enableartisan > http://www.kumbham.in > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 1:27:00 -0500 > From: "Paul D. Miller" > Subject: [Reader-list] Hey from Paul/Dj Spooky - Antarctica! > To: tbdinesh at servelots.com,"sarai list" > Cc: Jinan kb > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Hey you all - I leave for Antarctica today, so things are very hectic! If > you have a moment, check out the trailer for the film I'm going to shoot > there: Every sound in the film will be made from the sound of ice > (environmental, geological, magnetic, atmospheric > etc). I'm bringing a mini-studio with me to edit, shoot, and score > the film. It headlines Sundances Digital Film section this January. > > Check it out! > Small promo (32mb): Low res > http://djspooky.com/media/djspooky_antarctic_promo_small.mov > > Large promo (177mb): High Res > http://djspooky.com/media/djspooky_antarctic_promo_large.mov > > > I get back the 2nd week of January. > > I want to wish you all a very Happy New Years! > > in peace, > Paul aka DJ Spooky > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:22:30 +0530 > From: "Asit asitreds" > Subject: [Reader-list] draft on special economic zones > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > *The Simmering Dissent in the Indian Countryside – The Story of Special > Economic Zones.* > > Asit > > > The Special Economic Zones have become serious zones of conflict in rural > India. The ghastly blood-bath at Nandigram was a stark indicator of the > discontent raging through the Indian countryside, there the West Bengal > State Police fired on the protesting farmers, who didn't want to part with > their lands, which the West Bengal Government had proposed for a Special > Economic Zone to be promoted by the Salim Group of Industries of Indonesia. > Apart from Nandigram, farmers have been protesting all over the country > against the forcible acquisition of their land for the proposed SEZs. Some > of the prominent zones of conflict vis-à-vis are Jagatsinghpur, Orissa > against proposed Posco SEZ, Kakinada in Andhra Pradesh, Jhahar in Haryana > against the proposed large SEZ by Reliance Industries, Karla area in Pune > district in Maharashtra. Of late, there is news of farmers' protest from > various SEZs from Gujarat and Tamilnadu, as well. > > Under the rubric of Globalization, when the neo-liberal offensive is > devastating the 'Culture and Commons' of the indigenous people of India > appropriating the land of the peasants in this process, thousands of acres > of land have been taken away from people, forcibly dispossessing millions of > Aadiwasis and Farmers in the name of high GDP growth and attracting foreign > direct investments. The whole issue of Special Economic Zones has to be seen > in the context of cataclysmic changes taking place in the global scale which > had devastating impact on third world societies. Much has been written on > the global restructuring by Civil Society Groups and the Political Left. > India shared the fate of most of the Third World societies where the > national liberation movements inspired hopes for millions of peasants that > they can lead a life of dignity free from the colonial yoke. The > post-independent journey of India started with a vision of self reliance and > egalitarianism with the state whose elected executives would play the role > of prime-movers. The Nehru Era saw 'Abolition of Landlordism and Investment > in Irrigation'. Land Reforms released the forces of production in the > countryside and the coming in of the Green Revolution brought in relative > prosperity in rural areas of Punjab, Haryana, Western U.P. and Coastal > Andhra, where high input intensive agriculture was adopted. This path of > "Nehruian" Model of growth had a flip side which the mainstream Media > concealed until social movements like Narmada Bachao, Koel Karo , > Kalinganagar, Kashipur, Kalahandi, Tehri, etc. bought the other side of > post-independent rural reality and the simmering discontent. This path of > heavy industrialization and emphasis on modern infra-structures created > massive displacement. According to various sources, by mid-nineties, there > were more than 40 million farmers and Aadiwasis who were displaced by > various mega projects like dams, mines, factories and industrial township. > This is a whooping and revealing figure of the number of people displaced > which was more than the population of England. As mentioned earlier, social > movements like Narmada and Tehri were indicators of the refusal of rural > masses to part with their land and homes in the name of development. As a > result of global restructuring. The Indian rulers adopted the neo-liberal > ideology ushered in through the new economic policies of 1991. All the > welfare provisions, concept of self-reliance, pro-farmers and labor regimes > were gradually dismantled, leaving vulnerable segments of the population > like women, dalits, farmers, Aadiwasis, etc. at the mercy of the market. > Thus, market became the new god in the era of Globalization. The Indian > rulers who had completely turned neo-liberal in the new millennium adopted > the Special Economic Zone Policy when the entire country was undergoing > acute agrarian crisis, the most horrifying symptom of which was the high > number of incidences of farmers committing suicide by mid 2005 more than > 1.5lakh ( hundred and fifty thousand ) farmers had committed suicide , this > phenomenon goes on unabated till today. Agriculture is having its lowest > growth rate since past five years . The Massive and forceful acquisition of > land had accelerated the on going misery and marginalization of the rural > population. As result farmers are up in arms. Special Economic Zones were > the logical culmination of anti-people, anti-Farmers path pursued by the > Indian rulers which has other hazards apart from the massive dispossession > of the farmers and rural artisans. Large scale land acquisition for > Mega-Industrial projects, infrastructure projects and SEZs is transforming > the whole of the rural scenario in the country from bad to worse. To cover > up the devastation, the State Governments are half- heartedly bringing > rehabilitation and re-settlement policies. The land acquisition by the > Government ostensibly in the name of Public Interest, is in fact > transferring thousands of acres of fertile land to Multi-national Mega > Corporations like Posco, Salim and Indian big business houses likes Tata, > Jindal, Ambani and Birla. Through this process of displacement, land and > livelihoods are being alienated from the farmers and other sections of the > population, as mentioned earlier. Tens of millions of farmers and rural > artisans have already been displaced in the name of development. > > Displacement has converted farmers, Adiwasis and rural artisans into > destitutes most of whom have been forced to become casual workers in urban > centres without any rights. Fear of displacement from their homes, from > their lands and livelihoods, from their community and thought of living the > rest of their lives as destitutes has suddenly become a reality for vast > masses of India. The very people, who according to the Government are > supposed to be benefiting from so called Industrialization in the form of R > & R benefits, jobs urban facilities, social and hospitals etc. are seen to > be opposing these policies the most. The fact is that no State Government to > have the intention and capacity for the rehabilitation of the displaced > people. The land grabbing through displacement is not only restricted to the > rural areas. In the urban areas, the slum dwellers are being forcibly > evicted to make way for city, beautification and gentrification, > establishment of huge malls, real estate development, widening of roads etc. > often without any compensation and alternate dwelling place for slum > dwellers. The slum dwellers of most of the large cities are now resorting to > protest movements against their growing dispossession and marginalization. > The establishment of SEZs is playing havoc with the rural population of > India. Primarily India is an agricultural country and more than 70% of > Indian people are dependent on agriculture and its ancillary activities. To > develop India any sensible policy will have to develop agriculture sector. > But for the past 60 years, The Indian ruling elite have never seriously > attempted apart from the high tech Green Revolution package, no attempt was > made to upgrade agricultural land both availability and quantitatively by > disturbing arable waste land to the poor and creating irrigation facilities. > Such measures would have increased agricultural production making farmers > prosperous which would have created demand for manufactured goods and > stimulated industrialization with employment opportunities, but instead > today the Indian agriculture is facing its worst crisis. The development of > India is impossible without the development of agriculture as in most > villages of India agriculture and allied livelihoods such as fishing, animal > husbandry, forestry are the only sustainable livelihoods for the majority of > the people. Today the Government is unable to provide any other sustainable > livelihood after taking away land and common property resources such as > forests, streams, ponds, grazing lands, etc. which are the basis of > agriculture and allied occupation. Implementation of pro-agri-business > agricultural policies in the name of Green Revolution imposition of GM > seeds, contract farming and corporate control of agricultural sector are the > basic elements of the neo-liberal agriculture policies which is extremely > harmful for most of the farmers and rural artisans. Farmers' suicides are > serious indications of this agrarian situation. This grave crisis will also > have a serious impact on food security for Indian rural population which is, > anyway, under tremendous strain. Therefore, the rural population is up in > arms to save their agricultural land, livelihood, common property resources > like forests, sources of water etc. We have to seriously campaign and > support the struggle for protection and restoration of Indian agriculture. > There is a necessity for instilling confidence amongst farmers and rural > artisans for alternative development models is possible different groups > across India are trying to implement alternate development models on a small > scale, different political forces, mass movements and civil society groups > working with people have their own version of alternative development models > on a small scale, different political forces, mass movements and civil > society groups working with people have their own version of alternative > development models. The farmers have realized that even in the prevailing > situation of agrarian crisis gripping the country there is no other option > but to stick to agriculture and allied occupations. Industrial development > of India has to be in the interest of the masses and it can only happen on > the basis of development of agriculture and the rural economy on the whole. > Therefore, the demand should be the development of agriculture and rural > economy in the interest of the vast masses of India. > > The forcible displacement of the people from their lands and livelihoods for > establishment of mega- industries and infra-structural projects and > establishments of exclusive economic enclaves by multi-national corporations > and Indian big business in the name of SEZs is the anti- poor, pro-national > and Inter-national Big Business. > > The Government of India has adopted policies which have left the urban and > rural poor including the medium farmers and urban lower middle classes in a > precarious situation when for even the basic necessities of life people have > increasingly become dependent on the market forces, which again are > controlled by the National and Inter-national big business houses viz. World > Bank, IMF, WTO, etc. The industrialization policy of the Government is not > aimed at supplementing the production capacity of those products which are > in demand by the masses, nor it is creating any additional employment for > the vast army of unemployed of the country as Mega- industries which are > encouraged by the Government and are established by the Global and Indian > big business are high-tech automated industries, having a very low > employment prospect. On the other hand, such industries are responsible for > large scale displacement and massive loss of employment. The present > emphasis is on those industries which would exhaust the mineral resources of > India in next 3 to 4 decades, while these semi-finalized and low value added > intermediate products will be exported for manufacturing high and costly > products which will be again imported to India at a huge cost. This > anti-farmer-pro-big-business-industrial and mining policy is encouraging > establishment of huge mineral based industries, industrial infrastructures > like roads, rail, power plant, water treatment plant, townships, SEZs, smart > cities, EPZs, etc. Especially the SEZs have resulted in farmers losing their > land and livelihoods. Massive unemployment is being caused, natural > resources are being exhausted at a rapid rate and nature is getting > devastated. The implementation of SEZ plicy is leading to creation of > exclusive zones where no laws of land are there to protect the rights of the > labour and that of the farmers. Infact these laws are anti-people. This path > of industrialization that is displacing vast masses of the farmers and rural > artisans, will spell disaster for the country as a whole. Therefore, the > establishment of SEZ is playing havoc with the lives of the entire rural > population including the adiwasis. This path of industrialization through > Foreign Direct Investment and Foreign Institutional Investment have given > priority for establishing SEZs throughout India solely for the super profits > of the International and National big business. For the establishment of > SEZs, the various state Governments have ruthlessly used the "Colonial 1894 > Land Acquisition Act", forcibly evacuating people, destroying their cultural > moorings, social peace and livelihood, all in the name of growth, while on > the other hand SEZs which have been described as a foreign territory in the > SEZ Act of 2005 have been given the status of separate enclaves where no law > of the land or Constitutional provisions will apply. The development > commissioner appointed by the State Government will govern the SEZ with > private security, own laws and own regimes of justice and maintenance of law > and order. Neither the Civil Laws and Labor Laws nor any other laws of land > will be honored in these enclaves. This status of separate foreign > territories enables the corporate houses to exploit labor ruthlessly. > Working conditions will be deteriorated; working hours will be arbitrarily > increased to 12 to 14 hours. No work safety measures will be taken. Since > the work in these zones is given to contractors, the workers will be paid > low wages. No payments for weekly offs, no lease with wages, no medical > leave, no Provident Fund, no ES, no recreational facilities, no gratuity, > almost no social security will be provided to the workers. Accidents in the > work places are bound to increase. No workmen's compensation will be paid. > Women workers will be even more exploited. > > The SEZs are the most advanced and deadliest weapons of the neo-liberal > re-structuring apart from dispossessions of millions of farmers and artisans > it devastates their cultural milieu and these enclaves here no laws of land > will apply is akin to re-colonization of the Third World. > > The massive outburst of anger of the people of Nandigram, the ongoing > struggle against POSCO SEZ in Jagatsinghpur, Orissa , the struggle in Raigar > and many other places and the country–wide resistance against forcible > acquisition of land by the Government for the SEZs to be developed by Indian > and International big businesses has forced the Government of India to > announced the rulers under the SEZ Act 2005, according to which the private > corporate sector will purchase land straight from the farmers even after > this decision of the Government of India everywhere Police is intervening on > behalf of the corporate sector the case in point is struggle against the > Korean giant POSCO SEZ in Orissa. After the local people confronted the > Posco officials, the police intervened on behalf of Posco with an intention > of terrorizing the people and forcing them to surrender their land, these > interventions of police force on behalf of the corporate sector against > struggling farmers happens all over India, the list is endless. This exposes > the dual face of the Central and State Government, who go out of their way > to acquire land for the corporate sector while mouthing pro-people platitude > in public platforms and legislatures. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > In the light of the above importance of the peasant resistance to the > Special Economic Zones, a study was undertaken to understand the concrete > reasons of farmers' opposition to the SEZs. The Maha-mumbai SEZ promoted by > Reliance Industries in Raigad District in Maharashtra and the Mahindra and > Mahidra SEZ promoted by Mahindra Group at Karla in Pune District of > Maharashtra were selected for the study. > > The field work was done between 20th, July, 2007 and 5th, September, 2007. > The methodology adopted was 'Qualitative" interviews of respondents from > different castes, occupations and gender in the Panvel, Pan and Uran Tehsils > of Raigad Diatricts and of 6 villages in Karla area of Maval Tehsil of Pune > district. > > In the next 20 days, the field data will be analyzed and the report will be > drafted. > > Pls send ur comments to asitredsalute at gmail.com > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 53, Issue 36 > ******************************************* > From manmeet85 at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 19:09:32 2007 From: manmeet85 at gmail.com (Manmeet Kaur) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:09:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Music for Harmony.. come join us!!! Message-ID: <9fc76fcf0712190539g67cef3a8y8064041dfa39c67c@mail.gmail.com> Greetings from Pravah! Pravah was set up post the demolition of the Babri Masjid by a group of young professionals from different fields. Pravah has been working with adolescents and youth since 1993 to build leadership for social change through innovative citizenship education and youth development. Our interventions are based on our core values of peace and non violence, secularism, equality, justice and respect for common spaces. Since 2002, Pravah's young volunteers have been organizing *"Encore: Music for Harmony"*, a day long event that celebrates and promotes the message of peace and harmony. It's a day where we invite people from different realms of the arts to come together to celebrate peace. There will be music, theatre, dance, some exhibits prepared by our volunteers, a space for expressing your feelings and a lot more. *As always, this youth led event promises to be filled with fun and inspiration. We would like to invite you and your family to join us in spreading the message of peace. We would love for you to come and help us make the event a success.* *Peace is not the mere absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence and justice...* *"Encore: Music for Harmony"* *Date- Sunday, 23**rd** December* *Venue - Dastakar Mela, Dilli Haat* *Time - 12:00 pm to 7:00 pm* We look forward to seeing you there… Thank you With warmest regards Manmeet Kaur Pravah A small note from our volunteers who have put this event together: *A thought from one of us, "Peace for me is a state of internal and external harmony; establishing a harmonious relationship with not just people around us but also our surroundings (both natural and constructed) as well as with our own inner selves. It's hard to sum it up in words..."* We also feel that 'Music' can speak the language of the world. The same set of notes arranged differently and sung in different languages by different voices produces a beautiful harmony, striking a deep chord in our hearts, that also cuts across numerous dividing lines, be they of class, caste, gender, race or age. Thus *'Encore- Music for Harmony',* a day long musical event to bring together diverse genres of music: popular, western, folk and instrumental along with a variety of other engaging performing arts like theatre, exhibition and games to reflect the idea of 'unity in diversity' and celebrate and spread the message of peace and harmony. This event provides us with the opportunity to interact, exchange ideas with different people and learn from each other. 'Music for Harmony' is a platform for us to talk about issues that we are passionate about through a range of creative media and an effort to break through the barriers of space and theme. Hence, helping us to enhance our skills of organizing, leading and facilitating, along with uniting us as a team as we rejoice and celebrate peace! So come join us and let us celebrate together! Schedule for the day *Encore: Music for Harmony* *12:00-12:15 *Introduction to Music for Harmony – Lets talk about Peace! *12:20-12:35 *Hameedji (Rajasthani classical and Hindustani classical)** *12:40-12:55 *Sanskriti School Duo –Pushaan and Shubh** * * *1:05-1:20 *Ishita – Youth Parliament** *1:25-1:45 *Bhramastra (KRM school)** *1:50-2:00 *Goonj** *2:10-2:20 *Chimbey (Tibetan classical)** *2:20-2:30 *Michael – (Tibetan traditional)** *2:35-2:45 *Punnu and Mukesh (Garhwali songs) ** *2:50-3:20 *Footloose** *3:30-3:50 *North Bengal tribal music - Bhawaia (Rajbanshee language) * * *3:50-4:00 *Koyal** *4:10-4:25 *Deshbandhu natak* * *4:30-5:00 *Manzil B* * *5:10-5:40 *Manchaley – Kutumb Foundation's Band** *5:50-6:10 *Pravah natak** *6:20-6:50 *Ekum Satyam** *7:00-7:30 *Sajid Akbar** *7:30 *Closing** From ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Wed Dec 19 20:53:50 2007 From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Britta Ohm) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:23:50 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Reminder: Call for Films: Goettingen International Ethnographic Film Festival Message-ID: Anfang der weitergeleiteten E-Mail: > Von: "Goettingen International Ethnographic Film Festival" > > Datum: 18. Dezember 2007 21:20:08 MEZ > An: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de > Betreff: Reminder: Call for Films: Goettingen International > Ethnographic Film Festival > Antwort an: info at gieff.de > > -------------- next part -------------- > Göttingen International Ethnographic Film Festival > 30.4. – 1.5.2008 >   > Call for Films: Submission deadline: 14 January 2008 >   > http://www.gieff.de/ >   > The festival promotes documentary cinema with a special emphasis on > new films, videos or interactive media (published after 1.1.2005) > dealing with socio-cultural processes in a wide sense of the term. > The festival is open to all filmmakers, but especially those coming > from anthropology, sociology, folklore and neighbouring disciplines. > It provides a great opportunity for international co-operation in > Visual Anthropology and documentary filmmaking. > The student film competition is one of the central events of the > festival. >   > The festival addresses film authors, producers, distributors, and > viewers. > It aims for discussions at the screenings and afterwards between the > various groups present to promote the intercultural dialogue on the > different aspects of film work. >   > The Festival is a meeting point of young students of anthropology, > sociology and media studies, who are interested in the use of film as > research method, mode of publishing and communicating research > results. > Göttingen International Ethnographic Film Festival e.V. > event at gieff.de > phone: +49/551/5024-170 > fax: +49/551/5024-322 >   >   > We wish you a Happy New Year > the GIEFF-Team > ___________________ Britta Ohm Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49/30/69507155 From cahen.x at levels9.com Wed Dec 19 21:21:20 2007 From: cahen.x at levels9.com (xavier cahen) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:51:20 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 17-12 to 31-12-2007 Message-ID: <47693DF8.3000008@levels9.com> pourinfos.org l'actualité du monde de l'art / daily Art news ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Monday 17 December 2007 to Monday, December 31, 2007 (included) ------------------------------------------------------------------- (mostly in french) Meilleurs voeux pour l'année 2008 ! Happy new year 2008! Feliz año nuevo 2008 ! Xavier for pourinfos.org 's Team @ 001 (18/12/2007) Residency: Residence of artists in Berlin, the country where the sky is always blue, Orleans, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35311-tit-Residence-Residence-d-artistes-plasticiens -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 002 (18/12/2007) Résidency: Artist-in-Residence program at IAMAS, Japon. http://pourinfos.org/art-35312-tit-Residence-Artist-in-Residence-program-at -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 003 (19/12/2007) Various: winners of the 15th edition of Price Videre, Quebec, Quebec, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35286-tit-Divers-laureats-de-la-15e-edition-des-Prix -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 004 (19/12/2007) Meetings: "SOMETHING YOU SHOULD KNOW: ARTISTES ET PRODUCTEURS AUJOURD'HUI" , Wednesday, December 19, 2007, Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35316-tit--SOMETHING-YOU-SHOULD-KNOW-ARTISTES-ET -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 005 (19/12/2007) Call: Studio Project #10, Market Gallery, Glasgow, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35347-tit--Studio-Project-10-Market-Gallery- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 006 (20/12/2007) Publication: number 9, revue Art Vif, Nice, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35257-tit--numero-9-revue-Art-Vif-Nice- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 007 (20/12/2007) Various: souscription 2007, Association Manifestement Peint Vite, Nantes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35289-tit-Divers-Appel-a-souscription-2007- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 008 (20/12/2007) Call: Symposium: The Futures of Space Exploration - An Arts and Humanities, Less Remote, Glasgow, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35308-tit--Symposium-The-Futures-of-Space -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 009 (20/12/2007) Call: Turbulence Commission: "The ShiftSpace Commissions Program", Turbulence, New York, Usa. http://pourinfos.org/art-35310-tit--Turbulence-Commission-The-ShiftSpace -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 010 (20/12/2007) Meetings: "Day 25 years of CEAQ, Study Center and on the Daily News, Dec. 20, 2007, Descartes University of Paris Sorbonne, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35318-tit--Journee-des-25-ans-du-CEAQ-Centre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 011 (20/12/2007) Job: Assistant(e) Web Publication, Pourinfos.org, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35329-tit--Assistant-e-Web-Pourinfos-org-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 012 (20/12/2007) Various:Right of ? Richard Leydier - following art Press Novembre 2007. http://pourinfos.org/art-35330-tit-Divers-Droit-de-65533-Richard-Leydier -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 013 (20/12/2007) Various: ARTS AUX POLES, three trips for artists were awarded, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35331-tit-Divers-ARTS-AUX-POLES-les-trois-sejours -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 014 (20/12/2007) Call: [esse 63] Call for Papers, revue esse arts + opinons, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35333-tit--esse-63-Appel-de-textes-Call-for -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 015 (20/12/2007) Call: Web Flash Festal, Centre Pompidou, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35335-tit--a-projet-Web-Flash-Festal-Centre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 016 (20/12/2007) Call: International Exhibition of Contemporary Art, Jeune Creation, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35336-tit--internationale-d-art-contemporain-Jeune -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 017 (20/12/2007) Call: Call for Experimental Video for public screening event, Falkirk events, Falkirk, Scotland, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35339-tit--Call-for-Experimental-Video-for-public -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 018 (20/12/2007) Call: kanonmedia: Art Following the Trend? Artists' Voices. XI Features and Call for Participation,kanonmedia, Vienna, Austria. http://pourinfos.org/art-35341-tit--kanonmedia-Art-Following-the-Trend- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 019 (20/12/2007) Call: R.I.E.N. Rencontres Itinerantes d'Expériences Nouvelles, University Lumieres Lyon 2, Lyon, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35343-tit-Appel-a-Participation-R-I-E-N- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 020 (20/12/2007) Residencies: artists, La Pommerie, Saint-Setiers, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35344-tit--d-artistes-La-Pommerie-Saint-Setiers- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 021 (20/12/2007) Call: Exhibition, Images a louer, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35345-tit--Images-a-louer-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 022 (20/12/2007) Call: Public Art Commission, The Storey, Lancaster, United kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35346-tit--Public-Art-Commission-The-Storey- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 023 (20/12/2007) Call: project IN/OUT X.O, workshop / production / exhibition, Citu, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35348-tit--appel-a-projet-IN-OUT-X-O-un -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 024 (20/12/2007) Call: nternational competition Content 360, BBC, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35349-tit--competition-internationale-Content-360- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 025 (21/12/2007) Call: [esse 64] Call for Papers, revue esse arts + opinons, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35332-tit--esse-64-Appel-de-textes-Call-for -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 026 (21/12/2007) Call: Festival ManifestO, 6th edition, ManifestO, visual arts festival appeals for autors for its next edition, Toulouse, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35334-tit--Festival-ManifestO-6eme-edition- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 027 (21/12/2007) Call: for contribution at the review Marges, « Irresponsabilité de l’art ? » "there is the irresponsibility of art? "Study Day at the INHA, University of Paris 8, Saint-Denis, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35337-tit--Appel-a-contribution-de-la-revue-Marges- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 028 (21/12/2007) Call: Joke - call-out, Vitrine Project, Otto-Prod./La Vitrine, Maribor , Slovenia. http://pourinfos.org/art-35338-tit--Joke-call-out-Vitrine-Project- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 029 (21/12/2007) Call: Call For Proposals: Iraqimemorial.org, Reno, Usa. http://pourinfos.org/art-35340-tit--Call-For-Proposals-Iraqimemorial-org- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 030 (21/12/2007) Call: Open Call: Urban Research on Film, Directors Lounge, Berlin, Germany. http://pourinfos.org/art-35342-tit--Open-Call-Urban-Research-on-Film- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 031 (22/12/2007) Residency: Call for Entries Rijksakademie Research Residency, Rijksakademie van beeldende kunsten, Amsterdam, Netherlands. http://pourinfos.org/art-35314-tit-Residence-Call-for-Entries-Rijksakademie -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 032 (22/12/2007) Publication: «SPECTATEUR» (spectator), no 80, ETC, a quarterly magazine of contemporary art, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35322-tit--SPECTATEUR-no-80-ETC-revue -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 033 (23/12/2007) Publication: On/off "Le net-art peut-il sortir du net?" (The net-art can escape from the net?), n°29, Magazine du CIAC, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35326-tit--On-off-Le-net-art-peut-il-sortir-du -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 034 (23/12/2007) Job: art director, espace rural d'art contemporain, Fresnes-au-Mont, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35328-tit--recrute-son-sa-directeur-trice-espace -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 035 (24/12/2007) Publication: Neural n. 28 contents, Jodi, Casey Reas, Ryoiji Ikeda, Sebastian Luetgert ..., Roma, Italy. http://pourinfos.org/art-35324-tit--Neural-n-28-contents-Jodi-Casey-Reas- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 036 (25/12/2007) Call: International Poster Contest, the 16th edition, Graphisme dans la rue, Fontenay-sous-bois, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35350-tit--Concours-international-d-affiches-16eme -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 037 (26/12/2007) Publication: Objets temporels temporal object), Victor Burgin, editions Presses universitaires de Rennes, Rennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35320-tit--Objets-temporels-Victor-Burgin-editions -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 038 (27/12/2007) Publication: an Architecture of Interaction, Mondriaan Foundation and The Netherlands Foundation for Visual Arts, Design and Architecture, Amsterdam, Netherlands. http://pourinfos.org/art-35325-tit--an-Architecture-of-Interaction-Mondriaan -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 039 (28/12/2007) Publication: Hz #11, December, Stockholm, Sweden. http://pourinfos.org/art-35321-tit--Hz-11-December-Stockholm- -- XAVIER CAHEN -------------- cahen.x at levels9.com Paris France http://www.levels9.com _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 17:09:13 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:39:13 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Steve Kurtz: 3.5 years and still no "smoking gun" Message-ID: Below is an update from Lucia of http://caedefensefund.org Rolling into the 4th year of the US government's absurd "terrorism" case against artist Steve Kurtz... From: Lucia Sommer http://caedefensefund.org Hi everyone, A big Thank You to all of you who turned out today to support Professor Kurtz at in Federal Court in Buffalo - WE PACKED THE COURTROOM! Steve was incredibly moved and strengthened by the support, and the defense lawyers commented on how effective it was in showing that this case is one of concern to many citizens. As Prosecutor Hochul attempted to respond to defense attorney Paul Cambria's motions to dismiss the case -- including the fact that, according to the contract itself, no "crime" was committed -- the absurdity of the case was apparent for all to see. The highlight of this theater of the absurd (although it is difficult to choose) was perhaps when Judge Arcara ordered Prosecutor Hochul to produce the original contract between ATCC and the University of Pittsburgh. Apparently 3 1/2 years and millions of dollars was not enough time and resources for the government to procure this document, which Cambria pointed out was rather crucial to the government's entire "case." A new hearing is scheduled for January 18, 2008, to examine this document, as well as hear other motions; after that, the judge will rule on all the motions to dismiss. While we were encouraged by the hearing, we still don't expect to win these motions, since it is nearly impossible for judges to throw out Grand Jury indictments. Therefore we continue to prepare for trial, which is likely to take place this summer. Thank you again for your continued support, Lucia Sommer CAE Defense Fund http://caedefensefund.org From zigzackly at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 23:26:52 2007 From: zigzackly at gmail.com (peter griffin) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:26:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Prix Ars Electronica 2008 - Call for Entries In-Reply-To: <20071218082132.37CF8100BF@bender.aec.at> References: <20071218082132.37CF8100BF@bender.aec.at> Message-ID: <4d145a50712200956g8522a99y445ab3322477c66c@mail.gmail.com> This should be of interest to many on this list. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: communities at prixars.aec.at Date: 18 Dec 2007 13:51 Subject: Prix Ars Electronica 2008 - Call for Entries To: 00000188 at bender.aec.at Dear Friend and Participant of Prix Ars Electronica, The 22nd Prix Ars Electronica - International Competition for CyberArts is open for entries now! We kindly invite you to submit your latest projects! If you know any further interesting works we'll be happy to get your recommendation! Prix Ars Electronica 2008 Online Submission Deadline: March 7, 2008 Contact: info at prixars.aec.at Total Prize Money: € 115.000,- Categories: Computeranimation / Film / VFX; Digital Musics; Interactive Art; Hybrid Art; Digital Communities; Media.Art.Research Award; u19 - freestyle computing More details about all categories and online submission are available only online at: DIGITAL COMMUNITIES The "Digital Communities" category will honor important achievements by digital communities well as innovative artistic approaches towards web-based communities. This category focuses attention on the wide-ranging social and artistic impact of the Internet as well as on the latest developments in the fields of social software, ubiquitous computing, mobile communications andwireless networks. Special attention goes to community-related "net.art". "Digital Communities" spotlights bold and inspired innovations impacting human coexistence, bridging the geographical as well as gender-based digital divide and cultural conflicts, sustaining cultural diversity and the freedom of artistic expression or creating outstanding social software and enhancing accessibility of technological-social infrastructure. This category showcases the political and artistic potential of digital and networked systems and is thus designed as a forum for the consideration of a broad spectrum of projects, programs, artworks, initiatives and phenomena in which social and artistic innovation is taking place, as it were, in real time. Please feel free to forward this to all interesting/ed parties. With best regards, Bianca Petscher on the behalf of the Prix Ars Electronica 2008 Team Bianca Petscher Organisation Prix Ars Electronica - --------------------------------------- Ars Electronica Linz GmbH Hauptstraße 2-4 4040 Linz, Austria Telefon: 0043-732-7272-79 Fax: 0043-732-7272-674 E-Mail: info at prixars.aec.at http://prixars.aec.at - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you don't want to receive the AEC Newsletter any more, you can unsubscribe by sending a mail to 00000188-unsubscribe at listsrv.aec.at with the text "unsubscribe" in the subject: line - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Impressum: Ars Electronica Linz GmbH Hauptstraße 2 A-4040 Linz Tel. +43.732.7272.0 Fax +43.732.7272.2 E-Mail: info at aec.at From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 19:27:15 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 19:27:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Amusement=E2=80=A6_But_not_for_everybody!?= =?utf-8?q?!!?= Message-ID: <476D17BB.9010409@gmail.com> Paper Presented by Sumesh Mangalassery , an Expert panel Member on Tourism on peoples tribunal on tsunami Rehabilitation in Chennai December 21-22 December 2007 Amusement… But not for everybody!!! An analysis on Post Tsunami Tourism Developments in Tamil Nadu http://voicesfromthemargins.com/node/29 Sumesh Mangalassery The December 2004 tsunami has triggered many conflicts and contradictions regarding the use of resources and setting of priorities in the coastal areas. Tsunami also has triggered a lot of conflicts and contradictions to be based on the access to the resources such as sea, land, water and sharing of benefits. In tourism areas these conflicts are more evident and rigorous. After 3 years of tsunami, the current developments in the coastal areas are questioning the survival of fishermen communities. Someone could observe from the testimonies presented here in the People’s tribunal that the basic survivals of the fishing communities are at stake due to the pressure over their resources. At any stage of rehabilitation and reconstruction process, the customary rights of the fishing community over coastal land, sea and their resources were not recognized and discussed. This subject has been considerably neglected in the whole process and debates. In the aftermath of the tsunami, the still-traumatised residents were pressurised to leave the coastline to “safer’’ places with the promise that they will be given new homes. The government machinery went on a drive to collect signatures that fishermen and other communities were willing to shift. Role of International Financial Institutions and tourism Coastal tourism development and activities in Tamil Nadu are triggering these conflicts. In the process of tsunami rehabilitation and reconstruction availability of land was very limited. In the East Coast Road (ECR) especially from Chennai to Mahabalipuram these clashes are more rigorous and visible because of the development of tourism and other infrastructure. The land value has shoot up and plenty of IT parks, hotels, resorts and amusement parks, which have been established on both sides of the highway. The occupational and livelihood space of the fisher folk has been replaced as recreational space for the upper middle class of the society. The interests of communities have been significantly sidelined in the reconstruction and rehabilitation process. The government of Tamil Nadu and International Financial Institutions (IFI) like Asian development Bank (ADB) and World Bank who financed this project claiming that this road brought development and many employment opportunities to this region. But at the same time the involvement of fishing community in these so called developments is minimal or totally lacking. They are totally marginalized in this development process. And their access to to the resources is considerably denied. It is also noted that this highway is increased the vulnerability of the communities towards natural and man made disasters. It was very visible during the flood situation last year. The negative impacts of tourism such as environmental degradation, sex tourism and child abuse are rampant in these areas. The Women and Child Development Minister Renuka Chowdhury said in a written reply in Parliament that studies conducted by the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) and National Commission for Women (NCW) shows that in the name of pilgrim, heritage and coastal tourism, sexual exploitation of children is quite widespread in Tamil Nadu(Source : Sify news – 14th Oct. 2007). Now government is decided to expand the East Coast highway from Pondicheri to Kanyakumari with the support of World Bank. Earlier, the East coast Road from Chennai to Cuddalore for 166 Km via Pondhichery was improved to two-lane facility with Asian Development Bank loan of US $ 24.47 million in 1993-98.This new project is a part of ECR from Chennai to Kanyakumari for 732 km. The WB approved a US $ 348 million loan to help improve the quality, capacity and safety of the road network in the south Indian state of TN (WB press release no. 2003/426/SAR). Part of this expansion is presented as a post tsunami reconstruction activity by government. Government and IFIs should properly analyse the impact of these development projects to the fishing communities and conduct a socio economic analysis before expanding this highway to other coastal regions. Fisher people fear that this expansion will extend these conflicts and contradictions to other areas too. It is important to see that the government is not keen to organise any consultation process with communities. The first phase of the project it self was strongly opposed by the communities. Coastal Tourism The Policy note of Tourism 2005 – 06 by Tamil Nadu tourism department clearly shows the intention of the government to bring private investment to the coastal area. Setting up of amusement parks and other facilities with private participation in the coastline has been outlined as strategy for tourism development. In the post tsunami livelihood restoration plan, eco - tourism is one of the top options among the plans. The government and international agencies like Asian Development Bank, World Bank and industry body like Confederation of Indian Industry (CII) identified tourism is one of the alternative livelihood options for coastal communities. People of Srinivasapuram near the posh Marina Beach in Chennai where the tsunami claimed maximum number of victims in the city, are facing an eviction in the name of Coastal Regulation Zone Notification (CRZ) 1991. After the tsunami they received an eviction order despite a stay from Madras High Court against any such move. It is reported that authorities want to develop tourism facilities here to woo tourists. At the same time right on the Adyar creek (hardly 50 mt from Srinivasapuram), a luxury hotel is being built. If the Coastal Regulation Zone is not applicable to the hotel, one wonders why the fishermen with their traditional right to the land are being evicted. The condition in the CRZ that those involved in customary trades (such as fishing) could continue within the 500-mt mark is being ignored. In the tribunal many people pointed out that the fund for tsunami reconstruction and rehabilitation has been misused by authorities for tourism development. Role of forest department and coast guard It is interesting to know that many of the coastal conservation activities being undertaken by the forest department. Report says that the firewood collection of fisher folk in many areas has been prevented by the forest department. The coast guard is also showing some new interests in terms of protecting the coast .These new interest clearly shows that the pressure over resources are high and many agencies and interests are claiming their stake. In this context it is very important for the fisher folk to assert their customary right over coastal land and their resources. Double Standards One hand state government is trying to woo private investments to the coast. On the other hand they had given clear guidelines to the communities on the reconstruction of houses and other facilities, that indicates that all reconstruction should take place over 200 meters from the sea. The people living on the coast suspect the land within that 200 meter zone is being kept for big hotels and private investors. The government is strategically preventing those fishing families who wish to rebuild their homes on the coast, in the name of (potential) future natural disasters; at the same time, it’s encouraging the opening of both new and rebuilt beachfront tourist hotels and other tourist facilities. The new policies introducing related to coast is also detrimental to the interests of the coastal communities. The draft Coastal Zone Management Plan concept note 2007 by Ministry of Environment and Forests (MOEF) does not acknowledge the traditional and customary rights of fishing communities in the coastal zone. At the same time it suggests many exemptions for industries like tourism in the coast. Fishing community is arguing that MOEF is trying to undermine the existing Coastal Regulation Zone notification 1991 with the new proposed Coastal Zone Management Plan (CZMP) to help tourism and protect the interests of tourism lobby. Here it is very clear that in the name of a human tragedy many of the planned liberalization proposals will be revived and implemented with little dialogue and debate. This shows government’s double standards towards industry and communities even in the days of their crisis. State is justifying this injustice in the name of safety and rehabilitation. Coastal communities are preparing to face natural disasters but they are definitely not prepared to face a man made disaster like mass tourism!!! -ENDs- ****************** (Paper presented in the expert panel presentation in People’s Tribunal on Tsunami rehabilitation after 3 years on 21 – 22nd December 2007, ICSA, Chennai organized by Voices from The Margins) Sumesh Mangalassery is a tourism researcher and an active member of the voluntary initiative KABANI, the other direction, working in tourism issues. He can be contacted at sumeshmang at yahoo.com OR www.kabani.org From turbulence at turbulence.org Sat Dec 22 04:32:18 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:02:18 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Once Again + Happy Holidays Message-ID: <000f01c84425$b08082f0$118188d0$@org> Dear Friends, We're 10 days away from the end of our 2007 fundraising campaign. Our goal is to raise $25,000 by the end of the year - we still have a long way to go. We know that many of you are struggling as much as we are. However, if each of you were to donate a mere $5.00, we would succeed. Please go to Turbulence (http://turbulence.org) right now to find out how. It's easy! Happy Holidays and Warm Regards, Jo and Helen Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org New American Radio: http://somewhere.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 22:43:41 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:43:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rs125 crore spent on Mutton in one day in Kashmir.... Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> *Kashmir's Bakr Eid spend crosses Rs125 crore * http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1140648 "...... More than four lakh animals will be slaughtered in Kashmir; around 70,000 in Srinagar alone. "People have spent huge amounts of money on buying animals for offering sacrifices this Eid. We have fixed a rate of Rs90 per kg of meat. More than 24 lakh kgs of meat will be distributed," said Dr Shafat Kakroo, general manager J&K Sheep Development Board... ........" And they have the gall to say that they are economically impoverished....and then our PM Dr. Singh attributes the emergence of terrorism to economic backwardness.......What CoolAid is he drinking? From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 10:53:18 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:53:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chinkara Gazelle Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712212123o7aeb5bbao6e63aaa49bb0aee3@mail.gmail.com> http://in.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/19guest.htm From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 18:15:25 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:15:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rs125 crore spent on Mutton in one day in Kashmir.... In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990712220445o79e28d47p10a541b6b102916d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, It's time we took a 'reality check' Is a well known fact in this country that loans are taken on deaths, marriages, occasions, etc to fulfill desires of our children (one of the reasons that the Indian Govt stopped the practice of money lenders). There are many things I do without so that my children can have more. Any parent would want joy for his / her children. Povert (or economic backwardness) exists as a fact in India. In a hill state, you may have 50 acres across terraced mountains without direct access to water and in loans to buy fertilizer, seeds, etc and no way to run a tractor on those lands as the very style of terraced farming needs manual labour. In addition, the young have left for 'glamorous' town jobs. Travel to Mumbai by train and look at the slums leading in to that city - each hutment there with colour TVs, fridges, etc - and compare it to one in say Kolkatta. Forget Manmohan Singh's 'CoolAid'. Travel around and take a look at what level our infrastructure across the country, middlemen, religion and bureaucracy (along with a host of different 'minorities' each asking for / getting compensation) allows the freedom to work freely. Rgds, Partha ....................................... On Dec 21, 2007 10:43 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > *Kashmir's Bakr Eid spend crosses Rs125 crore * > http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1140648 > > > "...... > > More than four lakh animals will be slaughtered in Kashmir; around 70,000 > in > Srinagar alone. "People have spent huge amounts of money on buying animals > for offering sacrifices this Eid. We have fixed a rate of Rs90 per kg of > meat. More than 24 lakh kgs of meat will be distributed," said Dr Shafat > Kakroo, general manager J&K Sheep Development Board... > > ........" > > > > And they have the gall to say that they are economically > impoverished....and > then our PM Dr. Singh attributes the emergence of terrorism to economic > backwardness.......What CoolAid is he drinking? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Sat Dec 22 19:08:33 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:38:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Rs125 crore spent on Mutton in one day in Kashmir.... In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <108137.98299.qm@web8402.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan Let me tell you spending Rs.125 crore on animal slaughter has nothing to do with poverty in Kashmir or anywhere else. On Baqr Eid, Muslims everywhere (even the poor ones) would spend huge sums of money to express their religous fervour. Forget Kashmir, the statistics on animal slaughter during Eid in other places such as UP or Delhi will also astonish you. In the context of development, poverty should be defined not as the lack of money, but the lack of proper managment of money. And that's what the PM thinks of when he mentions backwardness. --- Pawan Durani wrote: > *Kashmir's Bakr Eid spend crosses Rs125 crore * > http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1140648 > > > "...... > > More than four lakh animals will be slaughtered in > Kashmir; around 70,000 in > Srinagar alone. "People have spent huge amounts of > money on buying animals > for offering sacrifices this Eid. We have fixed a > rate of Rs90 per kg of > meat. More than 24 lakh kgs of meat will be > distributed," said Dr Shafat > Kakroo, general manager J&K Sheep Development > Board... > > ........" > > > > And they have the gall to say that they are > economically impoverished....and > then our PM Dr. Singh attributes the emergence of > terrorism to economic > backwardness.......What CoolAid is he drinking? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 19:23:45 2007 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 19:23:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] why is IIC so meek to bow down before Bajrang Dal Message-ID: <73eb60090712220553n18c4dd12i57339929295f9c7d@mail.gmail.com> Is this the same city that is giving shelter to Tasleema Nasreen? ---- Bajrang Dal threat forces IIC to suspend Hussain show 22 Dec 2007, 1818 hrs IST, PTI NEW DELHI: An exhibition of acclaimed painter M F Hussain, whose allegedly obscene portrayal of Hindu Goddesses had invited the wrath of Sangh Parivar, ran into rough weather in the national capital on Saturday after organisers received a threat purportedly from Bajrang Dal. The India International Centre, where Hussain's 'Mughal India' painting series are on display, suspended the exhibition for Saturday after it received the threats from Bajrang Dal, sources said. The IIC had received the Bajrang Dal threat which said it has to face "serious consequences" if the capital's high-profile cultural organisation continued to exhibit the works of the controversial artist, they said. A group of youth, claiming to be members of the Hindutva outfit, went to the IIC and threatened the officials that they would have to face consequences if they continue with the hosting of this show, sources added. Bajrang Dal Delhi unit president Ashok Kapur claimed the outfit's youth had gone to the venue to enquire about the exhibition and had told the exhibitors that Hussain had insulted India's culture and his works should not be displayed here. A decision whether to restart the exhibition, which contains 20 paintings permanently displayed at Fida Museum in London, will be taken at a meeting of the IIC Directors later. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Bajrang_Dal_threat_forces_IIC_to_suspend_Hussain_show/articleshow/2643436.cms From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 02:16:11 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:16:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PRESS RELEASE : Tsunami used as the Opportunity for Vested Interests : Justice H Suresh Message-ID: <476D7793.8030407@gmail.com> PRESS RELEASE Tsunami used as an opportunity by vested interests– Justice H. Suresh 22/12/2007CHENNAI: In the concluding session of the two day people’s tribunal on the status of rehabilitation of tsunami, Justice H.Suresh stated that the tsunami relief work is used as an opportunity to exploit people. The tribunal organised by the Voices from the margins, a broad platform of organization of marginalized communities and support groups exposed many discrepancies and shortcomings in the tsunami rehabilitation after three years of the tsunami. Jury panel consisted of Justice Mr. H. Suresh (retired judge, Mumbai High Court) , Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer (eminent social activist and winner of Right to Livelihood award), Dr. K.N.Panikkar (historian and former vice Chancellor, Sankaracharya University) and Dr.Yasodha Shanmugasundaram (former vice Chancellor, Mother Teresa Women’s University).The tribunal pointed out that the disaster can be natural but the crisis followed by disaster is definitely man made and it is the failure of the government to meet its obligation as per the constitution of our country. The Jury panel observed that the ocean belongs to the communities who are living on the coast and they have a fundamental right to live there. Building any type of walls on the coast is the denial of fisher people’s right to livelihood. Justice Suresh was astonished to the fact that the survivors of tsunami are still living under pathetic conditions in what is known as ‘temporary shelters’ after three years of tsunami. The present condition of tsunami survivors is a clear violation of article 21 of the Indian constitution that is right to live, jury panel added. The Jury strongly felt the urgent need to protect the fishing community and their customary right to coast and sea. More than 50 tsunami survivors from the coast of Tamil Nadu and Pondicherry presented their testimonies and case studies which highlighted the issues of displacement and denial of rights, livelihood, gender, Coastal Zone Regulation, tourism issues and resource utalisation and accountability. Dr.Yasodha highlighted the gender discrimination and exclusion of women in the compensation and rehabilitation process of tsunami. She pointed out that women should part of the decision making process in order to eliminate discrimination. Ossie Fernandes of Human Right Foundation and member of expert panel of the people’s tribunal stated that the proposed Coastal Zone Management Plan concept note is not in favour of the fisher folk and the original 1991 Coastal Regulation Zone notification has to be reinforced. Sumesh Mangalassery an expert panel member questioned the agenda and the role of International Financial Institutions like World Bank and Asian Development Bank in the context of tsunami to develop tourism infrastructure in the coast. The increasing sex tourism and rampant child sexual abuse became a matter of concern during the tribunal Conveners of the tribunal Mr. S.M.Prithiviraj and Poet Malathy Maitri stated that the tribunal report will be used to pressurize the government to initiate meaningful remedial action and utilize the tsunami relief fund for the welfare of fisher people. For More details call +91 98430 80963 , +91 9367757356 From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 23:33:22 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:03:22 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima Nasreen, The Vanishing Message-ID: Two new essays by Taslima Nasreen are posted here: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/22/vanishing/ The Vanishing Banished Within and Without From vrjogi at hotmail.com Sun Dec 23 10:50:58 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 05:20:58 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo seculars! you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! vedavati _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 11:06:54 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:06:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: Hi Vedavati,I do not understand what you mean by victory to Hindus? Can you please explain? Also, are gujjus Hindus? I have gujju muslim friends so maybe it's time for me to call and congratulate them as well. Look forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 23, 2007 10:50 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From vadhimoolam at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 11:28:11 2007 From: vadhimoolam at gmail.com (Vetrivel Adhimoolam) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:58:11 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com><602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> Victory for Hindus? I can't help but bursting in to laughing! Joke of the twenty first century. Interestingly, such jokes are being cracked in this forum. Terms like sudo-secular is hardly going to hurt sensible intellectuals. Vetri. ----- Original Message ----- From: Vedavati Jogi To: reader-list at sarai.net ; tapasrayx at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo seculars! you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! vedavati _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 11:51:55 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:21:55 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] At Last The Inevitable, Statues Stolen From Airport Tarmac Message-ID: At Last The Inevitable, Statues Stolen From Airport Tarmac It is now confirmed that approximately 2 am, the night of Eid, one of the 13 crates in the second shipment of artifacts to Musee Guimet was stolen from the tarmac of ZIA International Airport. Details here: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/23/missing-statues/ From babuubab at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 12:54:32 2007 From: babuubab at gmail.com (Babu Sundara) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:54:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rs125 crore spent on Mutton in one day in Kashmir.... In-Reply-To: <108137.98299.qm@web8402.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> <108137.98299.qm@web8402.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <66ec95310712222324w8200f99u7ac4c80665970c0c@mail.gmail.com> Friends, I find several distinct issues likes like rituals, poverty, finance management, role of state, wastage, etc are being mixed up in this discussion. However, I do understand the linkages. To go back to the initial point .......on meat consumption on "religious" festival/day...... be it Muslims, Meatarian Hindus or Christians..........the consumption would be obviously proportional to the population of respective social groups and their ritual systems........if you go by the population of J&K and the statistics of 24 lakhs kg being consumed on Eid celebration....then the consumptions is very less for state which has 80 lakh population with Muslim majority .... ...and further....if one is aware of the Kashmiri cuisine.....wazwaan......then the quantity of meat is self explanatory . On the other hand if you want to go into the economy of wasting food products....then please consider, that these meat is consumed by people....unlike milk, sandal, turmeric, honey, oil, rose water, drinking water, etc that is poured on statues, coconut and pumpkins that are broken in front of street temples, trees and leaves that are cut for decoration, and beyond all statues that are dumped in rivers........please also take into account the lavish expenses during deaths.......burning pyre with sandal wood and ghee............the extravagant wastes during weddings of all communities.........if you want to draw link to ritual and poverty.....then please dont underestimate dowries...........lot of poor Brahmins of south India suffered because they could not generated money for the diamond nose and ear ring...which was considered minimum with every bride..........on the issue of Kashmiri poverty......the Kashmiris them selves claim that they are actually rich and the Indian/central state/government has kept them in the vicious cycle of poverty.......... On PM's statement with regard to poverty and militancy......its just the same old unproductive rhetoric.... regards, Sundara babu On 22/12/2007, S.Fatima wrote: > Dear Pawan > Let me tell you spending Rs.125 crore on animal > slaughter has nothing to do with poverty in Kashmir or > anywhere else. On Baqr Eid, Muslims everywhere (even > the poor ones) would spend huge sums of money to > express their religous fervour. Forget Kashmir, the > statistics on animal slaughter during Eid in other > places such as UP or Delhi will also astonish you. > > In the context of development, poverty should be > defined not as the lack of money, but the lack of > proper managment of money. And that's what the PM > thinks of when he mentions backwardness. > > > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > *Kashmir's Bakr Eid spend crosses Rs125 crore * > > http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1140648 > > > > > > "...... > > > > More than four lakh animals will be slaughtered in > > Kashmir; around 70,000 in > > Srinagar alone. "People have spent huge amounts of > > money on buying animals > > for offering sacrifices this Eid. We have fixed a > > rate of Rs90 per kg of > > meat. More than 24 lakh kgs of meat will be > > distributed," said Dr Shafat > > Kakroo, general manager J&K Sheep Development > > Board... > > > > ........" > > > > > > > > And they have the gall to say that they are > > economically impoverished....and > > then our PM Dr. Singh attributes the emergence of > > terrorism to economic > > backwardness.......What CoolAid is he drinking? > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- SUNDARA BABU NAGAPPAN Mob: +91-9811744919 From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 13:00:36 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:30:36 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima, The Vanishing (full text) Message-ID: Apologies, the URL I sent earlier has been deleted from Drishtipat blog. Here is the full text in body of email. Banished Within and Without Taslima Nasreen Although I was not born an Indian there is very little about my appearance, my tastes, my habits and my traditions to distinguish me from a daughter of the soil. Had I been born some years earlier than I was, I would have been an Indian in every sense of the term. My father was born before partition; the strange history of this subcontinent made him a citizen of three states, his daughter a national of two. In a village in what was then East Bengal, there once lived a poor farmer by the name of Haradhan Sarkar, one of whose sons, Komol, driven to fury by zamindari oppression, converted to Islam and became Kamal. I belong to this family. Haradhan Sarkar was my great-grandfather's father. Haradhan's other descendents obviously moved to India either during or after partition and became citizens of this country. My grandfather, a Muslim, did not. When I was a child, the notion of the once fashionable theory of pan-Islamic had been exploded by East Pakistani Muslims fighting their West Pakistani coreligionists. Our struggle was for Bengali nationalism and secularism. Even though I was born well after partition, the notion of undivided India held me in thrall. I wrote a number of poems and stories lamenting the loss of undivided Bengal, indeed undivided India even before I visited this country. I simply could not bring myself to accept the bit of barbed wire that kept families and friends apart even though they shared a common language and culture. What hurt most was that this wire had been secured by religion. By my early teens I had forsaken religion and turned towards secular humanism and feminism which sprang from within me and were in no way artificially imposed. My father, a man with a modern scientific outlook, encouraged me to introspect and as I grew older I broke away not just from religion but also from all the traditions and customs, indeed the very culture, which constantly oppressed, suppressed and denigrated women. When I first visited India, specifically West Bengal, in 1989, I did not for an instant think I was in a foreign land. From the moment I set foot on Indian soil, I knew I belonged here and that it was, in some fundamental way, inseparable from the land I called my own. The reason for this was not my Hindu forebear. The reason was not that one of India's many cultures is my own or that I speak one of her many languages or that I look Indian. It is because the values and traditions of India are embedded deeply within me. These values and traditions are a manifestation of the history of the subcontinent. I am a victim of that history. Then again, I have been enriched and enlivened by it, if one can call it so. I am a victim of its poverty, colonial legacy, faiths, communalism, violence, bloodshed, partition, migrations, exodus, riots, wars and even theories of nationhood. I have been hardened further by my life and experiences in a dirty, poverty- and famine-stricken, ill-governed theocracy called Bangladesh. The intolerance, fanaticism and bigotry of Islamic fundamentalists forced me to leave Bangladesh, herself a victim of the subcontinent's history. I was forced to go into exile; the doors of my own country slammed shut on my face for good. Since that moment I sought refuge in India. When I was finally allowed entry, not for an instant did I think I was in an alien land. Why did I not think so; especially when every other country in Asia, Europe and America felt alien to me? Even after spending twelve years in Europe I could not think of it as my home. It took less than a year to think of India as my home. Is it because we, India and I, share a common history? Had East Bengal remained a province of undivided India would the state have tolerated an attack on basic human freedoms and values and the call for the death by hanging of a secular writer by the proponents of fundamentalist Islam and self-seeking politicians? How would a secular democracy have reacted to this threat against one of its own? Or is the burden of defending human and democratic values solely a European or American concern? The gates of India remained firmly shut when I needed her shelter the most. The Europeans welcomed me with open arms. Yet, in Europe I always considered myself a stranger, an outsider. After twelve long years in exile when I arrived in India it felt as though I had been resurrected from some lonely grave. I knew this land, I knew the people, I had grown up somewhere very similar, almost indistinguishable. I felt the need to do something for this land and its people. There was a burning desire within me to see that women become educated and independent, that they stand up for and demand their rights and freedom. I wanted my writing to invigorate and contribute in some way to the empowerment of these women who had always been oppressed and suppressed. In the meanwhile, a few Islamic fundamentalists in Hyderabad chose to launch a physical attack upon me. The decision to attack me was motivated by the desire to gain popularity among the local masses. "A woman by the name of Taslima Nasrin has launched a vicious attack upon Islam and is all set to destroy the tenets of the faith. Therefore, Islam must be protected from this woman and the only way to do so is to kill her. Her death will bring many rewards: millions as fatwa bounty in this world, salvation and unparalleled delights in the next." This is the manner in which Islamic fundamentalists in secular India are attempting to entice poor, uneducated, uninformed Muslims while simultaneously looking to solidify their vote bank within the community. After hearing of the incident in Hyderabad, fundamentalist leaders in West Bengal, where I live, became so excited that they wasted no time in issuing fatwas against me and calling for my head. Students from madrasas who did not even know of my existence joined the fray. They knew of my blasphemy without having read a single one of my books. How did they know? Because their leaders had assured them that I had made it my mission to destroy Islam. Therefore, it was their individual and collective responsibility to protect and preserve their faith. Can one find a more perfect example of brainwashing? While their knowledge of my work may be infinitesimal, their knowledge of Islam is equally so and they have turned their faith into a commodity for their own base ends. Almost twenty per cent of India's population is Muslim and, unfortunately, the most vocal representatives of this considerable community are fundamentalists. Educated, civilized, cultured and secular people from the Muslim community are not regarded as representative of the community . What can be a greater tragedy than this? A greater tragedy, arguably, is that I may have to endure in progressive India, indeed in West Bengal, what I had to endure in Bangladesh. I live practically under house arrest. No public place is allegedly safe for me any longer. Not even the homes of friends are above suspicion, nothing is above suspicion. Even stepping out for a walk is considered unsafe. It is felt that I should spend my days in a poorly lit room grappling with shadows. Those who threaten to kill me are allowed by the state to spew their venom. They have tacitly been given the rights to do whatever they desire from disturbing the peace with their demonstrations to terrorizing the common man in the name of their faith. Those that oppose them and their unholy brand of communalism, those who take a stance against injustice and untruth are silenced in invidious ways. I am warned both implicitly and explicitly that, for example, a fundamentalists' demonstration is about to take place and it would be best for all concerned if I quietly left the city. Of course, do return by all means, but only when the situation has calmed down, I am advised. But will the situation ever calm down? For the last thirteen years I have been waiting for the situation to calm down. I was told the same thing when I left Bangladesh to go into exile. I refuse to leave because to leave would be to accept defeat and hand the fundamentalists the victory they have always desired. It would spell defeat for the freedom of expression, independence of thought, democracy and secularism. I simply refuse to allow them this victory. If they are eventually victorious, the loss will be as much mine as India's. If India gives in to the fundamentalists' demand to deport me, the list of demands will become an endless one. A deportation today, a ban tomorrow, an execution the day after. Where will it cease? They will pursue their agenda with boundless enthusiasm knowing that victory is certain. And, of course, the secular state and its secular custodians will bow down to every fundamentalist's every whim and fancy. Giving in to their demands is not a solution and any attempt to appease them makes them even more dangerous and pernicious. Even in my worst nightmares I had not imagined that I would be persecuted in India as I was in Bangladesh. Persecuted by the majority in one and a minority in another, but persecuted just the same. The bigotry, the intolerance, the death threats, the terrors: all the same. I often wonder what good it would do them to kill me. The fundamentalists are very well aware that it may bring them some benefit but will do nothing for the cause of Islam. Islam will remain as it has always remained. Neither I nor any other individual has the ability to destabilize Islam. The face of fundamentalism, its language and its intentions are the same the world over: to grab civilization by the scruff of its neck and drag it back a few millennia kicking and screaming. My world is gradually shrinking. I, who once roamed the streets without a care in the world, am now shackled. Always outspoken, I am now silenced, unable to demonstrate, left without the means of protesting for what I hold dear. Film festivals, concerts and plays all continue around me but I cannot participate. I spend my existence surrounded by walls: a prisoner. But I refuse to acknowledge this as my destiny. I still believe that one day I will be able to resume the life I once enjoyed. I still believe that India, unlike Bangladesh, will triumph over fundamentalism. I still believe that I will find shelter and solace here. The love and affection of Indians is my true shelter and solace. I still believe I will be able to spend the rest of my life here free of cares and worries. I love this country. I treat this land as my own. If I were to be ejected from this country it would amount to the cold-blooded murder of my most cherished ideals, perhaps a fate far worse than I could meet at the hands of any fundamentalist. I have nowhere to go, no country or home to return to. India is my country, India is my home. How much more will I have to endure at the hands of fundamentalists and their vote-grabbing political allies for the cardinal sin of daring to articulate the truth? If the subcontinent turns its back on me I have nowhere to go, no means to survive. Even after all that has happened, I still believe, I still dream, that for a sincere, honest, secular writer, India is the safest refuge, the only refuge. Kolkata 18 september ------ The Vanishing Taslima Nasreen Where am I? I am certain no one will believe me if I say I have no answer to this apparently straightforward question. They may believe what they wish, but the truth is I just do not know. I don't even know how I am. Sometimes I even appear to forget my own existence. I am like the living dead: benumbed; robbed of the pleasure of existence and experience; unable to move beyond the claustrophobic confines of my room. Day and night, night and day. Death becomes an intimate. We embrace. Yes, this is how I have been surviving. This did not begin the other day when I was bundled out of Kolkata. This has been going on for a while. It is like a slow and lingering death, like sipping delicately from a cupful of slow-acting poison that is gradually killing all my faculties. This is a conspiracy to murder my essence, my being, once so courageous, so brave, so dynamic, so playful. I realize what is going on around me but am utterly helpless, despite my best efforts, to wage a battle on my own behalf. I am merely a disembodied voice. Those who once stood by me have disappeared into the darkness. I ask myself: what heinous crime have I committed? Why am I here, in this singularly unenviable position? What sort of life is this where I can neither cross my own threshold nor know the joys of human company. What crime have I committed that I have to spend my life hidden away, relegated to the shadows? For what crimes am I being punished by this society, this land, this world? I wrote of my beliefs and my convictions. I used words, not violence, to express my ideas. I did not take recourse to pelting stones or bloodshed to make my point. Yet, I am considered a criminal. I am being persecuted because it was felt that the right of others to express their opinions was more legitimate than mine. To disobey the powers that be is to court public crucifixion. Yes, I am a victim of this new crucifixion: is the nation not a witness to my suffering? Does the nation not witness my immense suffering, the death of my hopes, aspirations, and desires? Does the nation not realize how immense the suffering must be for an individual to renounce her most deeply held beliefs? How humiliated, frightened, and insecure I must have been to allow my words to be censored. Only the expurgation of what they considered offensive satisfied them. If I had not agreed to their grotesque bowdlerization, I would have been hounded and pursued till I dropped dead. Their politics, their faith, their barbarism, and their diabolical purposes are all intent on sucking the lifeblood out of me. They will continue till they have bled me dry, expurgated these words, and removed these truths which are so difficult for them to stomach. Words are harmless, truth defenceless and devoid of arms. Truth has always been vanquished by the force of might. How can I – a powerless and unprotected individual – battle brute force? Come what may, though, I cannot take recourse to untruth. What have I to offer but love and compassion? I have never wished ill of anybody. Call me romantic but I dream of a world of harmonious coexistence free from the shackles of hatred and strife. In the way that they used hatred to rip out my words, I would like to use compassion and love to rip the hatred out of them. Certainly, I am enough of a realist to acknowledge that strife, hatred, cruelty, and barbarism are integral elements of the human condition. This will not change; such is the way of the world. I am an utterly insignificant creature: how can I change all this? Even if I were to be eradicated or exterminated it would not matter one whit to the world at large. I know all this. Yet, I had imagined Bengal would be different. I had thought the madness of her people was temporary. I had thought that the Bengal I loved so passionately would never forsake me. She did. Exiled from Bangladesh, I wandered around the world for many years like a lost orphan. The moment I was given shelter in West Bengal it felt as though all those years of numbing tiredness just melted away. I was able to resume a normal life in a beloved and familiar land. So long as I survive, I will carry within me the vistas of Bengal, her sunshine, her wet earth, her very essence. The same Bengal whose sanctuary I once walked a million blood-soaked miles to reach has now turned its back upon me. I find it hard to believe that I am no longer wanted in Bengal. I am a Bengali within and without; I live, breathe, and dream in Bengali but, bizarrely, Bengal offers me no refuge I am a guest in this land, I must be careful of what I say. I must do nothing which violates the code of hospitality. I did not come here to hurt anyone's sentiments or feelings. Arguably, I came here to be hurt. Wounded and hurt in my own country, I suffered slights and injuries in many lands before I reached India, where I knew I would be hurt yet again. This is, after all, a democratic and secular land where the politics of the vote bank implies that being secular is equated with being pro-Muslim fundamentalists. I do not wish to believe all this. I do not wish to hear all this. Yet, all around me I read, hear, and see evidence of this. I sometimes wish I could be like those mythical monkeys, oblivious of all that is going on around me. Death who visits me in many forms now feels like a friend. I feel like talking to him, unburdening myself to him. You must realize I have no one to speak to, no one to unburden myself to. I have lost my beloved Bengal. The Bengal I cherished, whose land, smells and sounds, hose very air was a part of me, is gone. I had to leave Bengal. No child torn from its other's breast could have suffered as much as I did during that painful parting. Once gain, I have lost the mother from whose womb I was born. The pain is no less than the ay I lost my biological mother. My mother had always wanted me to return home. That was something I could not do. After settling down in Kolkata, I was able to tell my mother, ho by then was a memory within me, that I had indeed returned home. How did it matter which side of an artificial divide I was on? I do not have the courage to tell my mother that my life now is that of a nomad. How can I tell her that those who had given me shelter saw it fit to expel me so unceremoniously? My sensitive mother would be hattered if I were to tell her all this. I choose not to tell her, not even when I am lonely and alone. Instead, I have now taken to convincing myself that I must have transgressed somewhere, committed some grievous error. Why else would I be in such an unenviable situation? Is daring to utter the truth a terrible sin in this era of falsehood and deceit? Don't others tell the truth? Surely they do not have to undergo such tribulations? Why do I have to undergo such suffering? Is it because I am a woman? What can be easier than assailing a woman? I know I have not been condemned by the masses. If their opinion had been sought, I am ctain the majority would have wanted me to stay on in Bengal. But when has a emocracy reflected the voice of the masses? A democracy is run by those who hold the reins of power who do exactly what they think fit. An insignificant individual, I must ow live life on my own terms and write about what I believe in and hold dear. It is not my desire to harm, malign, or deceive. I do not lie. I try not to be offensive. I am but a simple writer who neither knows nor understands the dynamics of politics. The way in which I was turned into a political pawn, however, and treated at the hands of base politicians, beggars belief. For what end you may well ask. A few measly votes. It is I who have suffered; I am the only victim of this great tragedy. The force of fundamentalism, which I have opposed and fought for very many years, has only been strengthened by my tragic defeat. This is my beloved India, where I have been living and writing on secular humanism, uman rights, and emancipation of women. This is also the land where I have had to suffer and pay the price for my most deeply held and fundamental convictions, where not a single political party of any persuasion has spoken out in my favour, where no non-governmental organization, women's rights' or human rights' group, has stood by me or ondemned the vicious attacks launched upon me. This India is not known to me . Yes, it s true that individuals in a scattered, unorganized manner are fighting for my cause and ournalists, writers, and intellectuals have spoken out in my favour. I do not know whether hey are familiar with my work or not, indeed if they have even read a single word I have penned. Yet, I am grateful for their opinions and support. Wherever individuals gather in groups, they seem to lose their power to speak out. Frankly, this facet of the new India terrifies me. Then again, is this a new India, or even a facet of a new India; or is it the true face of the nation? I do not know. Since my earliest childhood I have regarded India as a great land and a fearless nation. The land of my dreams: enlightened, strong, progressive, and tolerant. I wish to live to be proud of that India. I will die a happy person the day I know India has forsaken darkness for light, bigotry for tolerance. I await that day. I do not know whether I will survive, but India and what she stands for has to survive, must be allowed to survive. 18 December Delhi From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 13:46:53 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:46:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> Message-ID: Dear Vetri,I am sure Vedavati has a point to make when she says that Modi's victory is victory of the Hindus/victory to the Hindus. I think if Vedavati can explain her point, it will be of great help. Cheers, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 23, 2007 11:28 AM, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > Victory for Hindus? I can't help but bursting in to laughing! Joke of the > twenty first century. Interestingly, such jokes are being cracked in this > forum. Terms like sudo-secular is hardly going to hurt sensible > intellectuals. > > Vetri. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Vedavati Jogi > To: reader-list at sarai.net ; tapasrayx at gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its > a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the > world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aman.am at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 16:02:37 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 16:02:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] At Last The Inevitable, Statues Stolen From Airport Tarmac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <995a19920712230232h2cae9c87o2901b749214798e8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Naeem, Thank you for consistently posting on the musee guimet issue .. i have been following all your posts - but never got around to responding as i didnt quite know what to say ... am still unsure what to make of it - is truly fascinating - The fact that one crate has gone suggests some very very interesting possiblities - particularly that a hypothetical highly placed govt official gets to sell priceless heritage on the international black market and get to say "I told you so" at the same time. I met a bangladeshi journalist recently - i think he worked for a pro-govt paper and he seemed to be unaware of the issue - is it all over the papers? thank you once again best a,. On Dec 23, 2007 11:51 AM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > At Last The Inevitable, Statues Stolen From Airport Tarmac > > > It is now confirmed that approximately 2 am, the night of Eid, one of > the 13 crates in the second shipment of artifacts to Musee Guimet was > stolen from the tarmac of ZIA International Airport. > > Details here: > > http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/23/missing-statues/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 19:02:16 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 19:32:16 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Chronicle of a Fiasco Foretold Message-ID: After months of gnashing our teeth at the evil French authorities, Bangladeshi museum artefacts have indeed been stolen. But it's a 100% Made In Bangladesh affair. I listened over many a cha cup to endless conspiracy theories about how Musee Guimet, Paris was going to steal our priceless buddhist icons. But in the end the robbery happened before Air France could take off. From the "heavily guarded" ZIA International Airport tarmac, Dhaka. The shaken French embassy official I spoke with was (silently) grateful that at least the vanishing was in Bangladesh. Imagine the diplomatic hau-kau if this was not uncovered until the plane landed in Paris. Who do you think we would blame then? Hmm... The missing crate, Crate # 5, was found the next day, but not the priceless Visnu statues inside. In Bengali, a huge robbery is called "pukur churi" (literally pond theft). As a mordant touch, the crate was found next to a pond. With the right touch of dramatics, three activists have begun a "fast unto death" at the Dhaka Shaheed Minar demanding the return of the artefacts. Yes, I'm sure that will work. I don't mean to be cynical, it's life that's making me this way... ##################################################### At Last The Inevitable, Statues Vanish From Airport Tarmac http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/23/missing-statues/ Tintin In Bengal (revised) http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ Asterix & The Big Fight http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/03/guimet-the-other-side ##################################################### From zigzackly at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:02:39 2007 From: zigzackly at gmail.com (peter griffin) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:02:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Short film contest at the Kala Ghoda Arts Festival Message-ID: <4d145a50712230932h163bbd3ei277e0c54ba854f7a@mail.gmail.com> http://www.caferati.com/kgaf/2007/12/23/short-film-competition/ Short film competition The Tenth Kala Ghoda Arts Festival Invites you to participate in a competition for young filmmakers (age- 25 years and below). Make a short film titled: *TEN* Duration: 1 min - 5 mins Format: DVD only Last Submission date: 26th Jan '08 Submissions to: Brinda Miller, Millernium, 665, Cadell Rd, Next to Dadar Catering College, Dadar West, Mumbai 400028. The sooner you submit the better your chances! Only 20 films will be chosen for screening at the festival. For inquiries, call: Smriti Garach- +91 9819242246, Jethu Mundul- +91 9820254429 From vrjogi at hotmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:21:22 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:51:22 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: definitely all gujjus are not hindus, moreover narendrabhai always talks about (and works for)'sade panch crore gujratis' i am not against nationalist muslims, i am against those psudoseculars who don't allow muslims to join mainstream in india. but do our seculars understand that? to prove their secular credentials they keep cursing modiji gijjubahis have shown these seculars their place, thank you gujjubhais. heartu congratulations narendrabhai! Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:06:54 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: Hi Vedavati, I do not understand what you mean by victory to Hindus? Can you please explain? Also, are gujjus Hindus? I have gujju muslim friends so maybe it's time for me to call and congratulate them as well. Look forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 23, 2007 10:50 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo seculars! you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!vedavati_________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in_________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 From vrjogi at hotmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:46:28 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:16:28 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: Narendra Modi's resounding victory is a big slap on the face of Congress party,Pseudoseculars and English media. ofcourse they can not accept Modi's victory in right perspective. Reasons behind his success are,1.He is a very honest politician. He gave gujrat non-corrupt & efficient administartion2. He is commited to development of all 5.5 crore gujratis .3.He has the political will to implement his dream projects 4.His selfless attitude allows him to take bold decisions 5. He doesn't care what his opponents and detractors say about his decisions as long as his 5.5 crore gujratis are supporting him 5.In contrast psudo secularims is not allowing Manmohan Singh to solve terrorists problem with iron hand. Psuedosecularists are once again attributing his victory to Hindutwa and wasting their time is discussing whether its a victory for modi or bjp thus insulting the mandate as well as wisdom of common Gujratis. Not only Gujratis but all hindusthanis want security, prosperity & peace. Rather they don't want secularism at the expense of their own security. And I will not be surprised if one day all hindusthanis unite and vote for modi to make him PRIME MINISTER of India. Vedavati From: vrjogi at hotmail.comTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.netSubject: RE: [Reader-list] gujrat electionDate: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:51:22 +0000 definitely all gujjus are not hindus, moreover narendrabhai always talks about (and works for)'sade panch crore gujratis' i am not against nationalist muslims, i am against those psudoseculars who don't allow muslims to join mainstream in india. but do our seculars understand that? to prove their secular credentials they keep cursing modijigijjubahis have shown these seculars their place, thank you gujjubhais. heartu congratulations narendrabhai! Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:06:54 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: Hi Vedavati, I do not understand what you mean by victory to Hindus? Can you please explain? Also, are gujjus Hindus? I have gujju muslim friends so maybe it's time for me to call and congratulate them as well. Look forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 23, 2007 10:50 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo seculars! you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!vedavati_________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in_________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 01:30:13 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 15:00:13 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com><602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Dec 24 01:37:53 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 01:37:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Prayer Message-ID: <9c06aab30712231207p60850592pc22cb2b5ebff0136@mail.gmail.com> Modi has won. Again. A prayer at "Indian Muslims": http://indianmuslims.in/narendra-modi-wins-gujarat-again/ aaiye haath uThaayeN ham bhii ham jinheN rasm-e-du'aa yaad nahiiN ham jinheN soz-e-muhabbat ke sivaa ko'ii but, ko'ii Khudaa yaad nahiiN From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 08:34:38 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:34:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclear as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you yourself have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus are not Hindus. I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? Again, apologies for nagging you. Cheers, Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > be > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for > floating her own party against BJP? > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have > won, Hindus have > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth > next time. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars! > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > vedavati > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Mon Dec 24 13:19:20 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:49:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Newly tested hard/software: Version 2.0 Message-ID: <353893.79918.qm@web8407.mail.in.yahoo.com> Newly tested in his Gujarat lab: Hindutva 2.0 Varghese K George New Delhi, December 23 • “Gali Gali me naara hai, Aaj Gujarat kal Delhi Hamara Hai. One country, one people, one leader—Narendra Modi.” An SMS sent out by Vande Gujarat, an organisation that works out of Gujarat BJP office, on Sunday. • A banner outside the BJP office in Delhi screamed, “Jo Hindu hit ki baat karega, wohi desh par raj karega.” On the freshly printed banner, Narendra Modi gleamed life-size and the party president, Rajnath Singh, was stamp-size. The original poster boy of Hindutva, L K Advani did not find a place at all. The signals after the results left little room for ambiguity. So while Rajnath Singh told Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi who called at 12.20 pm that “You’ve done it,” and L K Advani heaped praises on “Gujarat’s dynamic and highly popular” leader, the BJP leadership was trying not to over-emphasise Modi’s role in the Gujarat victory. Spokesmen in Ahmedabad and Delhi spoke about a “team effort” with Modi as the man of the match. “Nobody is bigger than the party,” said Singh. “Modi will remain chief minister of Gujarat and Advaniji will lead the party in the Lok Sabha elections,” said Arun Jaitley, BJP general secretary in-charge of the elections. But Sunday’s win announced loudly that Narendra Modi has arrived on the national scene. So has Hindutva 2.0. Advani’s original Rath Yatra started from Gujarat and spread the message of Hindu pride and cultural nationalism. Advani tried to link suraj — good governance — to Hindutva in 2004, but failed. In Modi’s regional version, Hindu and Gujarati pride blend with economic prosperity—Bharat Maata is a mere slogan in the beginning. And unlike Advani, Modi has won. The core of the pan-Indian Hindutva philosophy of the Sangh Parivar is retained—that a united, Hindu upsurge is the necessary and sufficient condition for material progress. Gujarat was touted as “the laboratory of Hindutva.” Many others may have won individual elections, but Narendra Modi showed it as a sustainable philosophy that even withstands anti-incumbency. “The BJP has been winning Gujarat since 1990 and this is our fifth victory,” Modi said today. But during the campaign, Modi’s reference point was 2002 when he won the election for the first time. “In the last five years has there been a riot? Curfew? Has any terrorist struck Gujarat? Isn’t your business running well? Isn’t your daughter walking on the streets without being harassed?” Modi asked his adulatory audience during the campaign and the point was not easy to miss. Everyone knew Gujarat’s progress did not start in 2002. But Modi’s voters accepted that things have changed for better since 2002. Hindutva 2.0 is not driven by trishul-wielding sadhus, but by professionals and the middle class; by farmers who eagerly move on to Bt cotton and are impatient for Narmada waters. The BJP national leadership or the Sangh Parivar cannot easily concede the fact of an individual reorienting its politics and defying the organization. They are therefore emphasising the party’s role-at least as much as Modi’s. “It is victory of our ideology and we will go ahead with ideology and development issues. Modi was the chief minister there and under his leadership the state government has given development to the state,” Singh said. “He and his government had a clean image and worked for development. Under his leadership, Gujarat has emerged as a model state,” the BJP president said. “My party has conclusively shown that the people of Gujarat have voted for good governance, development and a leadership that delivers,” said BJP prime ministerial candidate L K Advani. There is no other leader in the BJP who can single-handedly win a state, and other leaders naturally feel insecure. Rajnath Singh had insured himself, by actively facilitating the declaration of L K Advani as the prime ministerial candidate. Modi and Arun Jaitely are trying to ward off any conflict. Modi thanked the “guidance of the national leadership,’ and congratulated Rajanth Singh for the victory. Jaitley said “Modi is a disciplined BJP worker and will remain in Gujarat.” It is difficult for the BJP to replicate the Gujarat experiment in other states given the vast difference between the “laboratory” and the real world. But every BJP leader will now secretly aspire to do a Modi in his or her respective states. However, in the days to come, Narendra Modi will have more true enemies and more false friends in the Parivar. Save all your chat conversations. Find them online at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From pkray11 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 14:24:57 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 14:24:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... Message-ID: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> The BJP has won the assembly elections in Gujarat. The results show that where the impact of communal politics is deep, electoral efforts alone are insufficient to defeat the communal forces. What is required is a determined and uncompromising struggle against the communal ideology of Hindutva and the capacity to launch sustained struggles of all sections of the people who suffered from the rightwing economic policies of the Modi government. Prakash From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 14:55:58 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 01:25:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <127350.15556.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From hpp at vsnl.com Mon Dec 24 14:48:51 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 14:48:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... References: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <015801c84618$04c79fd0$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Dear Friends If the people of West Bengal can live for 30+ long dark years under CPI(M) rule, and see the all-round degeneration of society, see the collapse of law and order, of governance and the discarding of all constitutional norms; see blatant abuse of power, corruption; see the rule by hoodlums, all-round extortion ... well, then that also produces empathy for the people in Gujarat. Fascists in the west, some other -ists in the east, one is reminded of Tennyson's "Charge of the Light Brigade": "cannons to the right of them, cannons to the left of them, rode the six hundred..." India awaits the brigade that will bring light to the darkness! Best V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 16:14:33 2007 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:14:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Free trade: call for caution Message-ID: <3457ce860712240244i716958eamd8f169763fa88932@mail.gmail.com> Free trade: call for caution Special Correspondent http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/23/stories/2007122353220400.htm Thiruvananthapuram: Speakers at a consultation on 'India's Free Trade Agreements (FTA) negotiations and implications for Kerala,' organised in the city, have called for caution on part of New Delhi in signing the agreements. Farmers' groups, researchers and civil society organisations participated in the meeting, organised by the Kerala Swatantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) in collaboration with the Mumbai-based research group 'Focus on the Global South.' Market access Speakers at the meeting said the ongoing crisis in the World Trade Organisation's (WTO) Doha round of trade talks and the market access ambitions of big businesses had necessitated a shift to bilateral and regional FTAs. India, they observed, was in the process of negotiating and implementing some 27 FTAs. The participants noted that the India-Sri Lanka Free Trade Agreement (ISFTA) signed in 2000 had adversely impacted on farmers in Kerala. Import of duty-free black pepper from Sri Lanka resulted in a free fall in local prices. The meeting said suicides among pepper farmers in the Wayanad region had registered a sharp rise during this period. Farmers Relief Forum leader A.C. Varkey said NGOs were forced to launch campaigns against the attachment of farms and houses of farmers by banks. Since India slashed tariffs in 1996-97, agricultural imports across the country have spiralled; 270 per cent increase in volume and 300 per cent in value terms, he said. The meeting noted that while middle class consumers had benefited through cheaper prices of imported commodities, a huge section of consumers who were also producers had been given short shrift. India, they said, had some 30 crore small farmers with less than 2 acres of land. Threat New FTAs such as the European Union (EU) – India Trade and Investment Agreement, India - Thailand FTA and the ASEAN - India Regional Trade and Investment Area were identified as posing threats to the fishing community in the State. The EU-India FTA is in the third round of negotiations and covers areas such as agriculture, fisheries, goods, investment and services and is India's most ambitious and challenging FTA till date. With 27 countries, the EU is one of the largest trading blocks and controls a third of global trade. Both negotiating teams have agreed that the minimum coverage of the FTA will be 90 per cent of all trade. "We have heard from sources in the Commerce Ministry that fish species such as mackerels, sardines, mullets, anchovies and flounders, the means of livelihood for traditional fishworkers, will be imported under minimum tariffs. We will be denied a just price for our catch as import of subsidised fish would cause local prices to plummet," said KSMTF State president T. Peter. Indian negotiators expect that these FTAs will provide Indian exporters access to foreign markets. While tariffs are low in the EU, there are several other import restrictions such as domestic subsidies, non-tariff barriers (NTBs), trade rate quotas (TRQs), sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) measures and tariff peaks to protect their markets. Mr. Peter stressed on the need for a nation-wide awareness campaign on the 'disastrous effects' of the ISFTA. "The ASEAN – India regional FTA, which involves the 10 South East Asian countries, will have a bigger adverse impact on us. Many of ASEAN exports such as fish, copra, coconut oil, desiccated coconut, natural rubber and pepper are also produced in India," he said. He said KSMTF would work closely with other unions and social movements to challenge the FTA policy of the Commerce Ministry. The federation has drawn up plans to bring out pamphlets, exert pressure on MLAs to raise the issue in the next session of the Kerala Assembly and take up a joint campaign with fishworkers and farmers groups in the ASEAN and the EU. http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 18:21:14 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:51:14 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... In-Reply-To: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <476FAB42.5070802@gmail.com> The struggle must, of course, be conducted under the leadership of a certain party, which happens to be the divinely ordained vanguard of the toiling masses. And it must draw inspiration from the rightwing economic policies of a certain leftwing government, because what is good for a certain state on the coast of the Bay of Bengal is not good for another state on the coast of the Arabian Sea. If this sounds confusing, one needs only to look at a map - the seas are different, though joined at the bottom, as in bottomline, in the great Indian ocean of ... shall we say hypocrisy? Tapas prakash ray wrote: > The BJP has won the assembly elections in Gujarat. The results show that > where the impact of communal politics is deep, electoral efforts alone are > insufficient to defeat the communal forces. What is required is a > determined and uncompromising struggle against the communal ideology of > Hindutva and the capacity to launch sustained struggles of all sections of > the people who suffered from the rightwing economic policies of the Modi > government. > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > From vivek at sarai.net Mon Dec 24 19:11:58 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 19:11:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> Message-ID: <476FB726.1010102@sarai.net> Vedavati, When I think of this event, I feel a great sadness. Narendra Modi's victory will be the biggest ideological boon for those who hate us. He will be the *cause* of many terrorist events over the next five years. Yes. But let us think twice about the word "terrorist". It is a stupid and inaccurate word. What we have here are two world views that hate each other but are, not coincidentally, symmetrical in their design. It's two opposing revenge-fantasies, in fact. Just think what the logical end of that could be. Vivek Zainab Bawa wrote: > Dear Vetri,I am sure Vedavati has a point to make when she says that Modi's > victory is victory of the Hindus/victory to the Hindus. I think if Vedavati > can explain her point, it will be of great help. > Cheers, > Zainab (gujju ben) > > On Dec 23, 2007 11:28 AM, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > >> Victory for Hindus? I can't help but bursting in to laughing! Joke of the >> twenty first century. Interestingly, such jokes are being cracked in this >> forum. Terms like sudo-secular is hardly going to hurt sensible >> intellectuals. >> >> Vetri. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Vedavati Jogi >> To: reader-list at sarai.net ; tapasrayx at gmail.com >> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM >> Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election >> >> >> >> >> >> >> whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. >> its >> a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo >> seculars! >> >> you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing >> the >> world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! >> >> vedavati >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. >> http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 19:33:16 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 06:03:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pakistans Tyranny Continues (by AITZAZ AHSAN) Message-ID: <965363.66548.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> An opinion piece by Aitzaz Ahsan in The New York Times is reproduced below. What has peeved me in this piece are Aitzaz Ahsan's references to Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, the erstwhile Chief Justice of Pakistan's Supreme Court, who was kicked out by Musharraf. To act as lead counsel for Chaudhry is Aitzaz Ahsan's right and duty as a lawyer to provide representation for a client be it a criminal or an innocent. But, Aitzaz Ahsan does a grave injustice to his own principled politics for the defense of Democracy in Pakistan, when he talks about Chaudhry in any laudatory terms. Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry bears culpability in allowing the continuation of Military Dictatorship in Pakistan. If Musharraf's coup against the elected government of Nawaz Sharif was treason against the Constitution of Pakistan (as it certainly was), then Chaudhry is complicit in the furtherance of that treason by providing support through "compliance" and "approval" through Legal Judgments. - 12th Oct 1999 - Musharraf engineers coup against elected government of Nawaz Sharif. (Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry is Chief Justice of Balochistan High Court) - 14th Oct 1999 - Musharraf proclaims Emergency with retrospective effect from 12th Oct 1999. Musharraf declares himself Chief Executive, suspends the National Assembly, Provisional Assemblies and the Senate, suspends the Federal and Provincial cabinets and Provincial Governors. Musharraf places """' ... the whole of Pakistan ..... under the control of the Armed Forces of Pakistan.""""" . (Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry is Chief Justice of Balochistan High Court) - 14th Oct 1999 - Musharraf promulgates the Provisional Constitution Order No.1 of 1999. Amongst other matters, this PCO contains the proviso: """"" .....that the Supreme Court or High Courts and any other court shall not have the powers to make any order against the Chief Executive or any person exercising powers or jurisdiction under his authority;...""""" The PCO also has the injunctions: """""" (1) No Court, Tribunal or other authority shall call or permit to be called in question the proclamation of Emergency of 14th day of October, 1999 or any Order made in pursuance thereof. (2) No judgment, decree, writ, order or process whatsoever shall be made or issued by any court or tribunal against the Chief Executive or any authority designated by the Chief Executive. """"""" (Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry continues as Chief Justice of Balochistan High Court) - 25th Jan 2000 - Musharraf issues the Oath of Office (Judges) Order, 2000. It applied to all Judges of Supreme Court, High Courts and Federal Shariat Court. By taking the the Oath, a Judge submitted to the affirmation: """"""....... shall be bound by the provisions of this Order, the Proclamation of Emergency of the fourteenth day of October, 1999 and the Provisional Constitution Order No. 1 of 1999 as amended and, notwithstanding any judgment of any court, shall not call in question or permit to be called in question the validity of any of the provisions thereof. """"""" Along with many Judges of the High Courts, 13 Judges of the Supreme Court including the Chief Justice Saeed-uz-Zamaan Siddiqui refused to take the Oath. Some of them resigned in a formal manner, others were simply no longer recognized as Judges. (Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry took this Oath) - 4th Feb 2000 - Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry is appointed as a Judge in the Supreme Court of Pakistan. - 12th May 2000 - Bench of the Supreme Court hearing challenges to Musharraf's coup, in it's verdict gives a Legal endorsement to the coup by invoking the "doctrine of necessity". Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry was a member of that Supreme Court bench. The "doctrine of necessity" excuse had been used by the Supreme Court of Pakistan in 1954 to validate Governor General Ghulam Mohammed's proclamation of Emergency and dissolution of Pakistan's First Constituent Assembly. The "doctrine" was again used by the Supreme Court in 1978 to declare as "Legal" General Zia ul Haq's dictatorship and Martial Law. - 7th May 2005- Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry is appointed as Chief Justice of Pakistan's Supreme Court by the Military Dictator General Parvez Musharraf - 3rd Nov 2007 - Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry is cast out from the Judiciary by the Military Dictator General Parvez Musharraf Kshmendra Kaul PS : The accolades received by Chaudhry and the 'awards' conferred on him by the various bodies quoted by Aitzaz Ahsan cannot absolve Chaudhry of his guilt in the perpetuation of Military Dictatorship in Pakistan. What we do get an idea of is how ill-informed the named institutions are Pakistan’s Tyranny Continues By AITZAZ AHSAN Lahore, Pakistan THE chief justice of Pakistan’s Supreme Court, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, and his family have been detained in their house, barricaded in with barbed wire and surrounded by police officers in riot gear since Nov. 3. Phone lines have been cut and jammers have been installed all around the house to disable cellphones. And the United States doesn’t seem to care about any of that. The chief justice is not the only person who has been detained. All of his colleagues who, having sworn to protect, uphold and defend the Constitution, refused to take a new oath prescribed by President Pervez Musharraf as chief of the army remain confined to their homes with their family members. The chief justice’s lawyers are also in detention, initially in such medieval conditions that two of them were hospitalized, one with renal failure. As the chief justice’s lead counsel, I, too, was held without charge — first in solitary confinement for three weeks and subsequently under house arrest. Last Thursday morning, I was released to celebrate the Id holidays. But that evening, driving to Islamabad to say prayers at Faisal Mosque, my family and I were surrounded at a rest stop by policemen with guns cocked and I was dragged off and thrown into the back of a police van. After a long and harrowing drive along back roads, I was returned home and to house arrest. Every day, thousands of lawyers and members of the civil society striving for a liberal and tolerant society in Pakistan demonstrate on the streets. They are bludgeoned by the regime’s brutal police and paramilitary units. Yet they come out again the next day. People in the United States wonder why extremist militants in Pakistan are winning. What they should ask is why does President Musharraf have so little respect for civil society — and why does he essentially have the backing of American officials? The White House and State Department briefings on Pakistan ignore the removal of the justices and all these detentions. Meanwhile, lawyers, bar associations and institutes of law around the world have taken note of this brave movement for due process and constitutionalism. They have displayed their solidarity for the lawyers of Pakistan. These include, in the United States alone, the American Bar Association, state and local bars stretching from New York and New Jersey to Louisiana, Ohio and California, and citadels of legal education like Harvard and Yale Law Schools. The detained chief justice continues to receive enormous recognition and acknowledgment. Harvard Law School has conferred on him its highest award, placing him on the same pedestal as Nelson Mandela and the legal team that argued Brown v. Board of Education. The National Law Journal has anointed him its lawyer of the year. The New York City Bar Association has admitted him as a rare honorary member. Despite all this, the Musharraf regime shows no sign of relenting. But for how long? How long can the chief justice and his colleagues be kept in confinement? How long can the leaders of the lawyers’ movement be detained? They will all be out one day. And they will neither be silent nor still. They will recount the brutal treatment meted out to them for seeking the establishment of a tolerant, democratic, liberal and plural political system in Pakistan. They will state how the writ of habeas corpus was denied to them by the arbitrary and unconstitutional firing of Supreme and High Court justices. They will spell out precisely how one man set aside a Constitution under the pretext of an “emergency,” arrested the judges, packed the judiciary, “amended” the Constitution by a personal decree and then “restored” it to the acclaim of London and Washington. They will, of course, speak then. But others are speaking now. The parliamentary elections scheduled for Jan. 8 have already been rigged, they are saying. The election commission and the caretaker cabinet are overtly partisan. The judiciary is entirely hand-picked. State resources are being spent on preselected candidates. There is a deafening uproar even though the independent news media in Pakistan are completely gagged. Can there even be an election in this environment? Are they being heard? I’m afraid not. (Aitzaz Ahsan, a former minister of the interior and of law and justice, is the president of the Supreme Court Bar Association of Pakistan.) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/23/opinion/23ahsan.html?ei=5070&en=c560e42dac0c2828&ex=1199077200&emc=eta1&pagewanted=print --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 21:36:23 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:06:23 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Pakistan=92s_Tyranny_Continues_=28?= =?windows-1252?q?by_AITZAZ_AHSAN=29?= In-Reply-To: <965363.66548.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <965363.66548.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0712240806g21f3511fwe63f1da98d2ebb70@mail.gmail.com> Hello KK I am not sure what the problem is if Aitzaz lauds the current CJ of Pakistan and his client, Iftikhar: 'The detained chief justice continues to receive enormous recognition and acknowledgment. Harvard Law School has conferred on him its highest award, placing him on the same pedestal as Nelson Mandela and the legal team that argued Brown v. Board of Education. The National Law Journal has anointed him its lawyer of the year. The New York City Bar Association has admitted him as a rare honorary member. Despite all this, the Musharraf regime shows no sign of relenting.' Aitzaz is making a case to the global civil society - all the things he mentions are documented, the info available from news and other sources on the net. However the other thing you point out is correct also - the judges who refused to sign on to gen mush's current coup against himself (president) and the judiciary in 2007, had taken oath legitimizing his first coup against the civilan government of pm nsharif. A rejoinder to exactly this point is pasted below - which may address the general point in the flow of events and the rich but flawed[?] drama of our constitutional history - but may not answer all the points raised in your email. Are you fond of uniforms? yasir received 5 dec THEY TOOK OATH UNDER THE PCO BEFORE - WHY SHOULD WE SUPPORT THEM NOW? A bit of history Pakistan's history is chequered with instances of military taking over the state. When Ayub took over, he introduced a constitution (1962) that gave sweeping powers to the President and the military. On his downfall, for General Yahya, the new military ruler, even the heavily lop-sided 1962 constitution was not considered in holding on to power. He issued the first Provisional Constitution Order (PCO) in Pakistan suspending human rights, civil liberties and the right to approach a court of law, for common citizens of Pakistan. After the promulgation of the 1973 Constitution - considered pristine and drafted by popular choice - there have been two other instances in Pakistan when military intervention in displacing civil power took extra-constitutional judicial action through a PCO. In the first instance judges were asked to take a fresh oath under a PCO in 1981 under General Zia and the second was in 2000 under General Musharraf. After Musharraf had seized power (1999) the courts were first purged of independent judges - Justice Wajihuddin being one of the judges who refused to take oath under the 2000-PCO. Justice Saiduzzaman Siddiqui, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was held hostage by an Army Colonel for several hours while the oath-taking ceremony took place elsewhere - it was well known that he would not only have refused to take oath but would also have influenced other judges in doing the same. The newly constituted Supreme Court under Justice Irshad Hasan Khan gave the military regime de facto recognition, but even they made it clear that they were doing so on condition that the judicial organ of the state remained uninterrupted. Justice Irshad Hasan Khan was duly compensated by appointment as the Chief Election Commissioner on his retirement. The Supreme Court declared at the time that independence of the judiciary was part of the basic structure of the constitution and that the Parliament could not amend the Constitution's basic structure. The Chief Executive - as Musharraf had styled himself - was given power to amend but not alter the basic features of the Constitution. Another condition was that extra-constitutional measures were permissible when the Constitution did not provide a remedy and the action taken was proportionate to the emergency situation. The present situation Under the present suspension of the Constitution - unlike any other situation in the past - the target is the Judiciary, which is undoubtedly one of the three important pillars of the state holding the nation together. Cynics point out that as the judiciary had stamped approval on all dictators in the past, it was justification enough to dismiss the Judiciary's current role in protecting the Constitution and rule of Law. However, what is different this time under the 2007-PCO is that compared to three (3) judges in 1981, an unprecedented sixty (60) out of nearly ninety-four (94) judges in the higher judiciary did not recognize the PCO or take oath under it. It is important that reasons behind the en masse rejection of the 2007-PCO are widely known. General Musharraf had claimed that the Judiciary had been interfering in the Executive branch of the government in the war against terror. While the courts did not have jurisdiction over the Army, the Executive on the other hand had all the authority - led by General Musharraf - to take remedial action and in which it had failed to act. This blame for failure in fighting the terrorists was passed on to the Judiciary which in fact had no role in the matter. With regard to interference in power of the Executive, Justice Khalil-ur-Rahman Ramday has challenged the government to cite cases and proofs of this alleged interference. No such proof to back the rhetoric and propaganda of the government has been presented even after a month of Army rule. Analysts point out that the latest coup by General Musharraf was in reality a coup against an ineffective President Musharraf, while the Judiciary had been identified as a scapegoat in order to cover this reality. In fact the military had struck a blow to a pillar of the state to sustain its rule and control. Allegations While the government alleged that the Judiciary was "letting terrorists go", the particular judges who directed the release of the Lal Masjid students, Justice Nawaz Abbassi and Justice Khokar, were in fact the first ones to be welcomed and given oath by under the PCO. In any case, the courts could only act on evidence received. If no real cases were put up against the Lal Masjid clerics, deliberately or not, what was expected of the Supreme Court? Another reason cited in reference to "letting terrorists go" has to do with the "missing persons" cases pursued by the courts. The courts said they would be satisfied if the persons were detained legally, backed by evidence, with due notification and trial in a court of law. The court repeatedly asked the government to inform it if the missing people were held by the military, to give plausible reasons if so and to try the persons under proper jurisdiction. In a twist of deviousness, the government and intelligence agencies refused to admit they had custody of any of these missing persons and yet continued to release them a few at a time. The judiciary, which had only asked for putting up cases and evidence against the missing persons were forced to continue hearing these cases as the government did not contest their detention. Did the government expect the Supreme Court to tell the litigants that they did not have the right to approach the courts for redress? It must be reiterated that the Judiciary has no authority over the military. According to the Law, if the police cannot control terrorism, the Army can be called on to aid civil authorities. As this was not done and the military has continued to operate of its own will, the Judiciary was cornered into asking questions from the police and civil administration. In the meantime the military authorities stood by and waited for a time to strike at the Judiciary. Concerning the failed efforts of the Executive - President Musharraf's government - in the military operations in Waziristan and elsewhere, it is out of place to involve the courts as they do not have jurisdiction in Tribal Areas. Another allegation was that the Judiciary was interfering in administration and in the function of the state (the executive bureaucracy) to the extent that it paralysed the working of the state. The question was: what remedy do the people have if the civil administration violates the law? What are the courts expected to do when a police chief is seen on camera directing his officers to mercilessly baton charge peaceful journalists and citizens? Judicial oversight to ensure adherence to constitution and civil rights is a well established legal tradition. While previous martial law regimes offered intellectual justification for usurping power under compelling circumstances, the present condition provides no such compelling circumstances – threats of external attack, chaos within, or non-functioning assemblies. All allegations relate indirectly to the judiciary – this is then impossible new legal and constitutional circumstance. This time, at the end of the day, the Judiciary appeared to be moving towards what the people expected them to do, which was to stand by the Constitution, rule of Law and the principles on which this country was founded. If the judges had made a mistake before, their refusal to take the oath now has redeemed them. Although some judges had refused to take oath under previous martial laws, this time a majority of judges refused. In the words of retired Justice Rasheed A Razvi: "if the Judiciary stands by principles, they should be commended for their present action rather than condemned for past weaknesses". The biggest sacrifices have been made by those judges who had only recently been elevated to the High Court from the District Courts - like Justice Zafar Sherwani and Justice Salman Ansari, who are credited with changing the face of the district courts for the better - and of those who were to retire soon - like Justice Rehmat Hussain Jaffery who was due to retire on November 22, 2007. "This was particularly painful because we could not organize a befitting court reference for him that he richly deserved," said Chief Justice Sabihuddin of Sind High Court. "He is one of our most principled, upright judges, and he did not take oath despite being offered a position in the Supreme Court." By blaming and scrapping the Judiciary, the Musharraf government has tried to hide its own failures during the last eight years. Moreover, the cost of keeping one man in power is dangerously high as a nation without a Judiciary stands nowhere. Already, in the new "pliant" courts, cases are being decided and dismissed on the basis of allegiance to the government rather than the merits of the case. And yet another fact, scary as it is, is that the judicial experience of current pliant PCO-judges of Sind High Court averages about a year and a half – an unprecedented low by all accounts. The upright judges who refused oath have an average experience of over 8 years and some even have judicial experience over 17 or 18 years. end From vrjogi at hotmail.com Mon Dec 24 22:51:02 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 17:21:02 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <476FB726.1010102@sarai.net> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> <476FB726.1010102@sarai.net> Message-ID: vivek, this hatred arises due to 'asymmetric' secularism. otherwise there is no difference between ordinary hindu & ordinary muslim. i am a maharashtrian married to a kashmiri hindu. there is a huge difference between our respective cultures even though both of us are hindu brahmins coming from same socio-economic class. but to my great surprise there is not much difference between kashmiri hindu & kashmiri muslim. before 1989 my husband says there was no enmity between two communities, instead he had many muslim friends in his college. but after 1989, hindus became refugees in their own country.actually its a shame on all of us. but none of our prime ministers got time to visit their camps in jammu or delhi. there is no succhar committee, no economic package , no budget allocation for these refugees. our secular politicians are ready to 'talk' to 'terrorists' who have (1)killed hindus including our military men, (2)pulled down temples, (3)burnt houses of hindus ( our ancestor's property too has met with the same fate ). i can give many examples of this type of asymmetric secularism which has its roots in gandhian philosphy. many hindus have sofar opposed ways of narendra modi, but there is not a single muslim who has raised his voice against this asymmetric secularism. hindus are now in no mood to show magnonimity towards terrorists like soharabuddin or afzal guru hence they are in no mood to vote for those politicians who support these terrorists just because they happen to be muslims . if you visit tehelka or rediffmail websites you will find that majority of hindus are now wholeheartedly supporting modi. when communal riots break out, its an ordinary innocent muslim (and not tista settlewad or shabana azmi) who is at the receiving end. politicians & socalled seculars remain safe in their own houses. they must now introspect & try to understand the reasons behind modi's victory. vedavati > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 19:11:58 +0530> From: vivek at sarai.net> To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> CC: vadhimoolam at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net; vrjogi at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > Vedavati,> > When I think of this event, I feel a great sadness. Narendra Modi's > victory will be the biggest ideological boon for those who hate us. He > will be the *cause* of many terrorist events over the next five years. > Yes. > > But let us think twice about the word "terrorist". It is a stupid and > inaccurate word. What we have here are two world views that hate each > other but are, not coincidentally, symmetrical in their design. It's > two opposing revenge-fantasies, in fact. Just think what the logical > end of that could be. > > Vivek> > > > > > Zainab Bawa wrote:> > Dear Vetri,I am sure Vedavati has a point to make when she says that Modi's> > victory is victory of the Hindus/victory to the Hindus. I think if Vedavati> > can explain her point, it will be of great help.> > Cheers,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 23, 2007 11:28 AM, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote:> >> > > >> Victory for Hindus? I can't help but bursting in to laughing! Joke of the> >> twenty first century. Interestingly, such jokes are being cracked in this> >> forum. Terms like sudo-secular is hardly going to hurt sensible> >> intellectuals.> >>> >> Vetri.> >>> >>> >> ----- Original Message -----> >> From: Vedavati Jogi> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net ; tapasrayx at gmail.com> >> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> >> Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question.> >> its> >> a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo> >> seculars!> >>> >> you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> >> the> >> world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> >>> >> vedavati> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________________________________> >> Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> >> http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> >> _________________________________________> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> >> Critiques & Collaborations> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> >> subscribe> >> in the subject header.> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> _________________________________________> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> >> Critiques & Collaborations> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> >> subscribe in the subject header.> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 From pkray11 at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 03:08:25 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 03:08:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] bas yun hi... Message-ID: <98f331e00712241338g6f8b3c42tfde0854660344fd8@mail.gmail.com> To whom it may concerned....... ab kis kaa jashn manaate ho us des kaa jo taqsiim huaa ab kis ke giit sunaate ho us tan-man kaa jo do-niim huaa (a couplet composed by Ahmed Faraz) regards, Prakash From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 03:32:28 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 17:02:28 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... References: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c84678$af50ff40$6602a8c0@taraprakash> We must not give up hope no matter what the electoral efforts result in. The atmosphere of terror has helped CPI (M) to survive in power in West Bengal for a long time, Modi might survive for a long time too. But let us not presume that there is no light at the end of this dark tunnel. From Naroda Patia to Nandi Gram the state sponsored terrorism has been successful to browbeat the voters in to submission, but the struggle must go on. All dictators have seen their last days, and those in India are not invincible too. The faded red powers will soon have to go. ----- Original Message ----- From: "prakash ray" To: Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 3:54 AM Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... > The BJP has won the assembly elections in Gujarat. The results show that > where the impact of communal politics is deep, electoral efforts alone are > insufficient to defeat the communal forces. What is required is a > determined and uncompromising struggle against the communal ideology of > Hindutva and the capacity to launch sustained struggles of all sections of > the people who suffered from the rightwing economic policies of the Modi > government. > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 04:07:13 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 17:37:13 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election References: <127350.15556.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012f01c8467d$881234d0$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Dear Kshmendra. An intriguing interpretation of my message. I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did. I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus. Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected. I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives. It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? Itâ?Ts cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 05:49:53 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 19:19:53 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima, The Vanishing (full text) References: Message-ID: <01e901c8468b$dff31f30$6602a8c0@taraprakash> There is no doubt that for political interest the governments have been pandering to Islamic and other communal forces in this country. The intellectuals in India have sadly followed the political parties in not opposing the overtures of the "green brigade" beyond tokenism. I believe that the immunity of Islam needs to be strengthened to face the genuine criticism of some of its religious practices. More books are required which challenge the kathmullahs misleading the Muslim youth from the issues of bread to the issues of the book. In that too they are very selective. They are tooth and nail against Taslima and Sania Mirza, but when mosques are used for political and militant purposes, such as 3 militants took control of a mosque with arms, they remain unmoved. Perhaps the reason is that the mosques have been so often been defiled by weapons that people have become immune to such defilements? And perhaps if there are more writers like Taslima and Salman Rushdi people will get immune to such criticisms too? I think so. Taslima in this write-up is echoing the opinion of a Pakistani poet Fahmida Riyaz Tum bilkul ham jaise nikale Ab tak kahan chipe the bhaai? Vah murakhta vah ghamarhpan Jismein ham ne sadi ganvaai, Aakhi pahunchi dvar tumhare Are badhai bahut badhai. (You happened to be like us (Pakistanis). The stupidity and foolishness? with which we wasted the entire century finally reached you. Congratulations). I know it is one of the most inaccurate translations, but it is quite sufficient , i guess. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" To: Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 2:30 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima, The Vanishing (full text) > Apologies, the URL I sent earlier has been deleted from Drishtipat blog. > > Here is the full text in body of email. > > Banished Within and Without > Taslima Nasreen > > Although I was not born an Indian there is very little about my > appearance, my tastes, my habits and my traditions to distinguish me > from a daughter of the soil. Had I been born some years earlier than I > was, I would have been an Indian in every sense of the term. My father > was born before partition; the strange history of this subcontinent > made him a citizen of three states, his daughter a national of two. In > a village in what was then East Bengal, there once lived a poor farmer > by the name of Haradhan Sarkar, one of whose sons, Komol, driven to > fury by zamindari oppression, converted to Islam and became Kamal. I > belong to this family. Haradhan Sarkar was my great-grandfather's > father. Haradhan's other descendents obviously moved to India either > during or after partition and became citizens of this country. My > grandfather, a Muslim, did not. When I was a child, the notion > of the once fashionable theory of pan-Islamic had been exploded by > East Pakistani Muslims fighting their West Pakistani coreligionists. > Our struggle was for Bengali nationalism and secularism. > > > Even though I was born well after partition, the notion of undivided > India held me in thrall. I wrote a number of poems and stories > lamenting the loss of undivided Bengal, indeed undivided India even > before I visited this country. I simply could not bring myself to > accept the bit of barbed wire that kept families and friends apart > even though they shared a common language and culture. What hurt most > was that this wire had been secured by religion. By my early teens I > had forsaken religion and turned towards secular humanism and feminism > which sprang from within me and were in no way artificially imposed. > My father, a man with a modern scientific outlook, encouraged me to > introspect and as I grew older I broke away not just from religion but > also from all the traditions and customs, indeed the very culture, > which constantly oppressed, suppressed and denigrated women. When I > first visited India, specifically West Bengal, in 1989, I did not for > an instant think I was in a foreign land. From the moment I set foot > on Indian soil, I knew I belonged here and that it was, in some > fundamental way, inseparable from the land I called my own. The reason > for this was not my Hindu forebear. The reason was not that one of > India's many cultures is my own or that I speak one of her many > languages or that I look Indian. > > It is because the values and traditions of India are embedded deeply > within me. These values and traditions are a manifestation of the > history of the subcontinent. I am a victim of that history. Then > again, I have been enriched and enlivened by it, if one can call it > so. I am a victim of its poverty, colonial legacy, faiths, > communalism, violence, bloodshed, partition, migrations, exodus, > riots, wars and even theories of nationhood. I have been hardened > further by my life and experiences in a dirty, poverty- and > famine-stricken, ill-governed theocracy called Bangladesh. > > The intolerance, fanaticism and bigotry of Islamic fundamentalists > forced me to leave Bangladesh, herself a victim of the subcontinent's > history. I was forced to go into exile; the doors of my own country > slammed shut on my face for good. Since that moment I sought refuge in > India. When I was finally allowed entry, not for an instant did I > think I was in an alien land. Why did I not think so; especially when > every other country in Asia, Europe and America felt alien to me? Even > after spending twelve years in Europe I could not think of it as my > home. It took less than a year to think of India as my home. Is it > because we, India and I, share a common history? Had East Bengal > remained a province of undivided India would the state have tolerated > an attack on basic human freedoms and values and the call for the > death by hanging of a secular writer by the proponents of > fundamentalist Islam and self-seeking politicians? How would a secular > democracy have reacted to this threat against one of its own? Or is > the burden of defending human and democratic values solely a European > or American concern? The gates of India remained firmly shut when I > needed her shelter the most. The Europeans welcomed me with open arms. > Yet, in Europe I always considered myself a stranger, an outsider. > After twelve long years in exile when I arrived in India it felt as > though I had been resurrected from some lonely grave. I knew this > land, I knew the people, I had grown up somewhere very similar, almost > indistinguishable. I felt the need to do something for this land and > its people. > There was a burning desire within me to see that women become educated > and independent, that they stand up for and demand their rights and > freedom. I wanted my writing to invigorate and contribute in some way > to the empowerment of these women who had always been oppressed and > suppressed. In the meanwhile, a few Islamic fundamentalists in > Hyderabad chose to launch a physical attack upon me. The decision to > attack me was motivated by the desire to gain popularity among the > local masses. "A woman by the name of Taslima Nasrin has launched a > vicious attack upon Islam and is all set to destroy the tenets of the > faith. Therefore, Islam must be protected from this woman and the only > way to do so is to kill her. Her death will bring many rewards: > millions as fatwa bounty in this world, salvation and unparalleled > delights in the next." This is the manner in which Islamic > fundamentalists in secular India are attempting to entice poor, > uneducated, uninformed Muslims while simultaneously looking to > solidify their vote bank within the community. After hearing of the > incident in Hyderabad, fundamentalist leaders in West Bengal, where I > live, became so excited that they wasted no time in issuing fatwas > against me and calling for my head. Students from madrasas who did not > even know of my existence joined the fray. They knew of my blasphemy > without having read a single one of my books. How did they know? > Because their leaders had assured them that I had made it my mission > to destroy Islam. Therefore, it was their individual and collective > responsibility to protect and preserve their faith. Can one find a > more perfect example of brainwashing? While their knowledge of my work > may be infinitesimal, their knowledge of Islam is equally so and they > have turned their faith into a commodity for their own base ends. > Almost twenty per > cent of India's population is Muslim and, unfortunately, the most > vocal representatives of this considerable community are > fundamentalists. Educated, civilized, cultured and secular people from > the Muslim community are not regarded as representative of the > community . What can be a greater tragedy than this? > > A greater tragedy, arguably, is that I may have to endure in > progressive India, indeed in West Bengal, what I had to endure in > Bangladesh. I live practically under house arrest. No public place is > allegedly safe for me any longer. Not even the homes of friends are > above suspicion, nothing is above suspicion. Even stepping out for a > walk is considered unsafe. It is felt that I should spend my days in a > poorly lit room grappling with shadows. Those who threaten to kill me > are allowed by the state to spew their venom. They have tacitly been > given the rights to do whatever they desire from disturbing the peace > with their demonstrations to terrorizing the common man in the name of > their faith. Those that oppose them and their unholy brand of > communalism, those who take a stance against injustice and untruth are > silenced in invidious ways. I am warned both implicitly and explicitly > that, for example, a fundamentalists' demonstration is about to take > place and it would be best for all concerned if I quietly left the > city. Of course, do return by all means, but only when the situation > has calmed down, I am advised. But will the situation ever calm down? > For the last thirteen years I have been waiting for the situation to > calm down. I was told the same thing when I left Bangladesh to go into > exile. I refuse to leave because to leave would be to accept defeat > and hand the fundamentalists the victory they have always desired. It > would spell defeat for the freedom of expression, independence of > thought, democracy and secularism. I simply refuse to allow them this > victory. If they are eventually victorious, the loss will be as much > mine as India's. If India gives in to the fundamentalists' demand to > deport me, the list of demands will become an endless one. A > deportation today, a ban tomorrow, an execution the day after. Where > will it cease? They will pursue their agenda with boundless enthusiasm > knowing that victory is certain. And, of course, the secular state and > its secular custodians will bow down to every fundamentalist's every > whim and fancy. Giving in to their demands is not a solution and any > attempt to appease them makes them even more dangerous and pernicious. > Even in my worst nightmares I had not imagined that I would be > persecuted in India as I was in Bangladesh. Persecuted by the majority > in one and a minority in another, but persecuted just the same. The > bigotry, the intolerance, the death threats, the terrors: all the > same. I often wonder what good it would do them to kill me. The > fundamentalists are very well aware that it may bring them some > benefit but will do nothing for the cause of Islam. Islam will remain > as it has always remained. Neither I nor any other individual has the > ability to destabilize Islam. The face of fundamentalism, its language > and its intentions are the same the world over: to grab civilization > by the scruff of its neck and drag it back a few millennia kicking and > screaming. My world is gradually shrinking. I, who once roamed the > streets without a care in the world, am now shackled. Always > outspoken, I am now silenced, unable to demonstrate, left without the > means of protesting for what I hold dear. Film festivals, concerts and > plays all continue around me but I cannot participate. I spend my > existence surrounded by walls: a prisoner. But I refuse to acknowledge > this as my destiny. I still believe that one day I will be able to > resume the life I once enjoyed. I still believe that India, unlike > Bangladesh, will triumph over fundamentalism. I still believe that I > will find shelter and solace here. The love and affection of Indians > is my true shelter and solace. I still believe I will be able to spend > the rest of my life here free of cares and worries. I love this > country. I treat this land as my own. If I were to be ejected from > this country it would amount to the cold-blooded murder of my most > cherished ideals, perhaps a fate far worse than I could meet at the > hands of any fundamentalist. > > I have nowhere to go, no country or home to return to. India is my > country, India is my home. How much more will I have to endure at the > hands of fundamentalists and their vote-grabbing political allies for > the cardinal sin of daring to articulate the truth? If the > subcontinent turns its back on me I have nowhere to go, no means to > survive. Even after all that has happened, I still believe, I still > dream, that for a sincere, honest, secular writer, India is the safest > refuge, the only refuge. > > Kolkata > 18 september > > ------ > > The Vanishing > Taslima Nasreen > > Where am I? I am certain no one will believe me if I say I have no > answer to this apparently straightforward question. They may believe > what they wish, but the truth is I just do not know. I don't even > know how I am. Sometimes I even appear to forget my own existence. I > am like the living dead: benumbed; robbed of the pleasure of existence > and experience; unable to move beyond the claustrophobic confines of > my room. Day and night, night and day. Death becomes an intimate. We > embrace. Yes, this is how I have been surviving. > This did not begin the other day when I was bundled out of Kolkata. > This has been going on for a while. It is like a slow and lingering > death, like sipping delicately from a cupful of slow-acting poison > that is gradually killing all my faculties. This is a conspiracy to > murder my essence, my being, once so courageous, so brave, so > dynamic, so playful. I realize what is going on around me but am > utterly helpless, despite my best efforts, to wage a battle on my own > behalf. I am merely a disembodied voice. Those who once stood by me > have disappeared into the darkness. > > I ask myself: what heinous crime have I committed? Why am I here, in > this singularly unenviable position? What sort of life is this where I > can neither cross my own threshold nor know the joys of human company. > What crime have I committed that I have to spend my life hidden away, > relegated to the shadows? For what crimes am I being punished by this > society, this land, this world? I wrote of my beliefs and my > convictions. I used words, not violence, to express my ideas. I did > not take recourse to pelting stones or bloodshed to make my point. > Yet, I am considered a criminal. I am being persecuted because it was > felt that the right of others to express their opinions was more > legitimate than mine. To disobey the powers that be is to court public > crucifixion. Yes, I am a victim of this new crucifixion: is the nation > not a witness to my suffering? Does the nation not witness my immense > suffering, the death of my hopes, aspirations, and desires? > > Does the nation not realize how immense the suffering must be for an > individual to renounce her most deeply held beliefs? How humiliated, > frightened, and insecure I must have been to allow my words to be > censored. Only the expurgation of what they considered offensive > satisfied them. If I had not agreed to their grotesque bowdlerization, > I would have been hounded and pursued till I dropped dead. Their > politics, their faith, their barbarism, and their diabolical purposes > are all intent on sucking the lifeblood out of me. They will continue > till they have bled me dry, expurgated these words, and removed these > truths which are so difficult for them to stomach. Words are harmless, > truth defenceless and devoid of arms. Truth has always been > vanquished by the force of might. How can I – a powerless and > unprotected individual – battle brute force? Come what may, though, I > cannot take recourse to untruth. > > What have I to offer but love and compassion? I have never wished ill > of anybody. Call me romantic but I dream of a world of harmonious > coexistence free from the shackles of hatred and strife. In the way > that they used hatred to rip out my words, I would like to use > compassion and love to rip the hatred out of them. Certainly, I am > enough of a realist to acknowledge that strife, hatred, cruelty, and > barbarism are integral elements of the human condition. This will not > change; such is the way of the world. I am an utterly > insignificant creature: how can I change all this? Even if I were to > be eradicated or exterminated it would not matter one whit to the > world at large. I know all this. Yet, I had imagined Bengal would be > different. I had thought the madness of her people was temporary. I > had thought that the Bengal I loved so passionately would never > forsake me. > > She did. > > Exiled from Bangladesh, I wandered around the world for many years > like a lost orphan. The moment I was given shelter in West Bengal it > felt as though all those years of numbing tiredness just melted away. > I was able to resume a normal life in a beloved and familiar land. So > long as I survive, I will carry within me the vistas of Bengal, her > sunshine, her wet earth, her very essence. The same Bengal whose > sanctuary I once walked a million blood-soaked miles to reach has now > turned its back upon me. I find it hard to believe that I am no longer > wanted in Bengal. I am a Bengali within and without; I live, breathe, > and dream in Bengali but, bizarrely, Bengal offers me no refuge > > I am a guest in this land, I must be careful of what I say. I must do > nothing which violates the code of hospitality. I did not come here to > hurt anyone's sentiments or feelings. Arguably, I came here to be > hurt. Wounded and hurt in my own country, I suffered slights and > injuries in many lands before I reached India, where I knew I would be > hurt yet again. > > This is, after all, a democratic and secular land where the politics > of the vote bank implies that being secular is equated with being > pro-Muslim fundamentalists. I do not wish to believe all this. I do > not wish to hear all this. Yet, all around me I read, hear, and see > evidence of this. I sometimes wish I could be like those mythical > monkeys, oblivious of all that is going on around me. Death who visits > me in many forms now feels like a friend. I feel like talking to him, > unburdening myself to him. You must realize I have no one to speak to, > no one to unburden myself to. > > I have lost my beloved Bengal. The Bengal I cherished, whose land, > smells and sounds, hose very air was a part of me, is gone. I had to > leave Bengal. No child torn from its other's breast could have > suffered as much as I did during that painful parting. Once gain, I > have lost the mother from whose womb I was born. The pain is no less > than the ay I lost my biological mother. My mother had always wanted > me to return home. That was something I could not do. After settling > down in Kolkata, I was able to tell my mother, ho by then was a memory > within me, that I had indeed returned home. How did it matter which > side of an artificial divide I was on? I do not have the courage to > tell my mother that my life now is that of a nomad. How can I tell her > that those who had given me shelter saw it fit to expel me so > unceremoniously? My sensitive mother would be hattered if I were to > tell her all this. I choose not to tell her, not even when I am lonely > and alone. Instead, I have now taken to convincing myself that I must > have transgressed somewhere, committed some grievous error. Why else > would I be in such an unenviable situation? Is daring to utter the > truth a terrible sin in this era of falsehood and deceit? Don't others > tell the truth? Surely they do not have to undergo such tribulations? > Why do I have to undergo such suffering? Is it because I am a woman? > What can be easier than assailing a woman? > > I know I have not been condemned by the masses. If their opinion had > been sought, I am ctain the majority would have wanted me to stay on > in Bengal. But when has a emocracy reflected the voice of the masses? > A democracy is run by those who hold the reins of power who do exactly > what they think fit. An insignificant individual, I must ow live life > on my own terms and write about what I believe in and hold dear. It is > not my desire to harm, malign, or deceive. I do not lie. I try not to > be offensive. I am but a simple writer who neither knows nor > understands the dynamics of politics. The way in which I was turned > into a political pawn, however, and treated at the hands of base > politicians, beggars belief. For what end you may well ask. A few > measly votes. It is I who have suffered; I am the only victim of this > great tragedy. The force of fundamentalism, which I have opposed and > fought for very many years, has only been strengthened by my tragic > defeat. > > This is my beloved India, where I have been living and writing on > secular humanism, uman rights, and emancipation of women. This is also > the land where I have had to suffer and pay the price for my most > deeply held and fundamental convictions, where not a single political > party of any persuasion has spoken out in my favour, where no > non-governmental organization, women's rights' or human rights' group, > has stood by me or ondemned the vicious attacks launched upon me. This > India is not known to me . Yes, it s true that individuals in a > scattered, unorganized manner are fighting for my cause and > ournalists, writers, and intellectuals have spoken out in my favour. I > do not know whether hey are familiar with my work or not, indeed if > they have even read a single word I have > penned. Yet, I am grateful for their opinions and support. > > Wherever individuals gather in groups, they seem to lose their power > to speak out. Frankly, this facet of the new India terrifies me. Then > again, is this a new India, or even a facet of a new India; or is it > the true face of the nation? I do not know. Since my earliest > childhood I have regarded India as a great land and a fearless nation. > The land of my dreams: enlightened, strong, progressive, and tolerant. > I wish to live to be proud of that India. I will die a happy person > the day I know India has forsaken darkness for light, > bigotry for tolerance. I await that day. I do not know whether I will > survive, but India and what she stands for has to survive, must be > allowed to survive. > > 18 December > Delhi > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 10:37:04 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:37:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> <6b79f1a70712232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan,Did you say 'peaceful' and secure state to Gujaratis? Who are these Gujaratis? I am certain that the Gujarati Muslims of Gujarat are as Gujarati as the 'Hindus' that you keep referring to are Gujaratis. Perhaps you should be a bit specific on who these Gujaratis are? I am sure it must be a very peaceful time for Gujaratis post March and April 2002, and that voting under duress is as peaceful as blood pressure and hypertension. I am also waiting for Modi in Delhi. Perhaps then we can witness a peaceful repeat of some events of 1983, this time in the name of an Akhand Gujarat. Jai bharat, Jai Gujarat, Jai Modi, Jai Pawan putra, Yours truly, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 10:27 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Modi's victory is a victory of Hindus as almost everyone had started > categorising Hindus as someone who have terrorised muslims in Gujarat. > > Modi not only gave good governance , he laso gave a peaceful and secure > state to Gujaratis. His victory is victory to all Gujaratis irrespective of > being Hindus , muslims or Parsis. > > The Good governance wins , the respect of majority community wins , the > confidence and security to minorties wins. The Psuedosecularists lost all. > > This time it was Gujarat .... We all are waiting for Modi in Delhi....just > few months to go. > > > On 12/24/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear > > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > > Hindu > > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > > are > > not Hindus. > > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand > > your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > that > > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers, > > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin > > ka > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > > Advani > > > be > > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > > > for > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > > have > > > won, Hindus have > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > > mouth > > > next time. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > To: < reader-list at sarai.net>; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > question. > > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > > psudo > > > > seculars! > > > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > showing > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 10:45:46 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My dear Vedavati,When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. In peace, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > dear zainab, > > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only because > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had voted > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after partition. > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. > > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india like > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > sentiments. > > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. > > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still -congress > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings what > about 'kashmiri pundits'? > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted. > that is why it is their victory! > > vedavati > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > Hi, > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: TaraPrakash > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > unclear > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourself > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > are > not Hindus. > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > Again, apologies for nagging you. > Cheers, > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > > be > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > > for > > floating her own party against BJP? > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > have > > won, Hindus have > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > mouth > > next time. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > To: ; > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question. > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > psudo > > > seculars! > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > showing > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > From vadhimoolam at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 11:49:28 2007 From: vadhimoolam at gmail.com (Vetrivel Adhimoolam) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 01:19:28 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: DEFANGED[1694]:<843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com><602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net><007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash><6b79f1a70712 " " 232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That's correct Zainab. There is another increasing trend here. Because of the crude application of the Western capitalist liberal democracy to countries like India, we see miss use or rather abuse of terms like majoritarianism to trash the undeniable historical happenings. ----- Original Message ----- From: Zainab Bawa To: Pawan Durani Cc: reader-list at sarai.net ; Vedavati Jogi Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Pawan,Did you say 'peaceful' and secure state to Gujaratis? Who are these Gujaratis? I am certain that the Gujarati Muslims of Gujarat are as Gujarati as the 'Hindus' that you keep referring to are Gujaratis. Perhaps you should be a bit specific on who these Gujaratis are? I am sure it must be a very peaceful time for Gujaratis post March and April 2002, and that voting under duress is as peaceful as blood pressure and hypertension. I am also waiting for Modi in Delhi. Perhaps then we can witness a peaceful repeat of some events of 1983, this time in the name of an Akhand Gujarat. Jai bharat, Jai Gujarat, Jai Modi, Jai Pawan putra, Yours truly, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 10:27 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Modi's victory is a victory of Hindus as almost everyone had started > categorising Hindus as someone who have terrorised muslims in Gujarat. > > Modi not only gave good governance , he laso gave a peaceful and secure > state to Gujaratis. His victory is victory to all Gujaratis irrespective > of > being Hindus , muslims or Parsis. > > The Good governance wins , the respect of majority community wins , the > confidence and security to minorties wins. The Psuedosecularists lost all. > > This time it was Gujarat .... We all are waiting for Modi in Delhi....just > few months to go. > > > On 12/24/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear > > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > > Hindu > > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > > are > > not Hindus. > > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand > > your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > that > > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers, > > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin > > ka > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > > Advani > > > be > > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > > > for > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > > have > > > won, Hindus have > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > > mouth > > > next time. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > To: < reader-list at sarai.net>; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > question. > > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > > psudo > > > > seculars! > > > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > showing > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 12:03:41 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 12:03:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Chanchal,I am still not certain if Narendra's Modi's win is Hindu's victory. I know at least two 'Hindus', both residing in my house, who believe that Modi's victory is not their victory. In fact, they fear that with Modi's win, there may be more repression and violence in Gujarat and in other parts of India, in the name of 'terrorism' whether it is Muslim terror or Hindu terror or Christian terror. On the other hand, I am sure there is a segment of the Muslim population that is extremely happy with Modi's victory either because it furthers their corporate interests and/or because they are Modi supporters, going to RSS camps. You can call these Muslims nationalists (which I am sure they don't give two hoots about) or secularists or true Hindustanis. Arguments against how Muslims don't raise their voice when there is Nandigram or some such thing is as banal as Vedavati's (and others') angst against 'pseudo-secularists'. Also this rant (if I may call it so) about the displacement of Kashmiri pandits and their refugee status is unconvincing when those 'Muslims' (if you may please) who are still living in Kashmir are refugees from the state and its violence, the recent case being that of taking away lands from rural Kashmiris to build some power plant, thereby displacing them of their livelihoods and whatever little they can hold on to for their lives. How many 'Muslims' (again if you may please), living in 'India' have raised their voices against the state atrocities and violence committed against 'Kashmiri Muslims' (again and again if you may please) forget about saying anything in sympathy for the 'Pandits'? If you ask my Gujjubhai father about who he hates most, it is not the Hindus who burnt his factory in the 1993 riots, but his hatred is directed towards Bohra Muslims, Bangladeshi Muslims and the Punjabi Muslims of Pakistan. He couldn't care about the situation in Kashmir as long as some state violence in Kashmir does not affect him to the extent of bringing one more mob to burn down his house or his children, yet again. Making statements in anger, at random, is extremely easy for all of us, whether we are pseudo-secularists, anti-secularists, pro-secularists, techno-secularists, no-secularists, or amoeba. I am sure we are all angry with the violences committed against us, at some point or another, but true courage, perseverance, patience and forgiveness lies in looking inwards, to our own prejudices and to our own hatreds, because after all, the hatred and violence in this world comes from our own insides. Yours truly, (diadactic Gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 9:34 AM, chanchal malviya < chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi, > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: TaraPrakash > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > unclear > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourself > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > are > not Hindus. > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > Again, apologies for nagging you. > Cheers, > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > > be > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > > > for > > floating her own party against BJP? > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > have > > won, Hindus have > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > mouth > > next time. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com> > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question. > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > psudo > > > seculars! > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > showing > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > From vrjogi at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 12:12:49 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 06:42:49 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: my dear zainab, nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own mistakes. (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra station? even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not a magnonimity shown by hindus? id you reciprocate? did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where babri structure once stood? if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for reservations..! (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building. if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for hindu sentiments too. vedavati Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. In peace, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their victory! vedavati Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: vrjogi at hotmail.com Hi, You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the problem of communalism on their own motherland.. Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, it is humanity that has won.. Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big mass when there is anything related to their religion... But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in Terrorist attacks... Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal becoming another Kashmir.. Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had Godhra would not have taken place... Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected from their month.... I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus win... Jai Hind, ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 From mohit.thatte at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 13:52:40 2007 From: mohit.thatte at gmail.com (Mohit Thatte) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 13:52:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16189fe60712250022pa8abebfo7c58dabf85ee7f22@mail.gmail.com> Dear Vedavati, As an Indian first and a Hindu second, I want to point out a few flaws in your argument. 1. Zainab or anyone for that matter has the right to practice any religion they want and this right is granted by the constitution of our country. She need not go anywhere as long as she lives by the laws of the land. 2. Yes, according to the media the riots were started by Muslims perhaps. But how do you know that they were not ISI agents who did it on purpose because their aim was to tear apart the social fabric that binds our beautiful country. 3. About the role of Madrassa's I am going to keep quiet. I have heard too many bad things about indoctrination in Madrassa's to support their existence. Any organization which preaches hate and violence is unlawful and a danger to society and should be eradicated. Of course I am sure there exist good Madrassas as well which serve as they are supposed to. 4. The law should be the same for all. The law MUST be blind to religion. At the same time the law MUST NOT interfere with freedom of choice. 5. I don't understand what you mean by the statement - "join hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building." Many Muslims today live in fear. They are actively shunned by the "mainstream" and castigated as desh-drohi and what not. This is absolute crap (excuse my language). Stereotyping is a typical Indian thing to do - irony in that statement! But just because of a few bad apples, don't say apples are bad for health. If Praveen Togadia was shown to me as the "representative" of Hindus then I would feel all Hindus are bloodthirsty crazies. But that is not true! So there.... ~Mohit PS: This is my first post on this list. Please let me know if I have broken any rules or not followed list-etiquette. On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > my dear zainab, > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > mistakes. > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > station? > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > id you reciprocate? > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > babri structure once stood? > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for > reservations..! > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > hindu sentiments too. > > vedavati > > > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal > rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to > live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that > you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or > not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have > to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots > in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the > 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba > Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is > a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no > sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. > In peace, > Zainab (gujju ben) > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims > who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india > after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations > to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & > obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, > amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from > ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress > & left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of > 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt > muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about > '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always > been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains > still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when > person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' > killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that > hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > victory! vedavati > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > Hi, > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > Jai Hind, > > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory is > a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several > of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that just as all > Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize > for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting thatModi's victory is > now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for > nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, > TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat of > Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with > Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son > murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? > Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own > party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and > Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets > canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before > putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message > -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: < > reader-list at sarai.net>; > Sent: Sunday, December 23, > 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> >> >> > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question.> > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais > for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be > formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried > the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject > header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- -Mohit Thatte "*Smart one-liner goes here*" From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 14:08:12 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 14:08:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Vedavati, Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu' brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how I can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask my Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are and how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments, then I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu' colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I can support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians, Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will do what you have suggested. As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I cannot remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in this part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that happens to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my place and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan or India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric imagination of the city. It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'. Is there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims' to go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning' 'us' to? Truly, Zainab P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built. All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan 1993 for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes. On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > my dear zainab, > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > mistakes. > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > station? > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > id you reciprocate? > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > babri structure once stood? > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence > demand for reservations..! > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > hindu sentiments too. > > vedavati > > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530 > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. > In peace, > Zainab (gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > dear zainab, > > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only because > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had voted > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after partition. > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. > > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india like > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > sentiments. > > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. > > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still -congress > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings what > about 'kashmiri pundits'? > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted. > that is why it is their victory! > > vedavati > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > Hi, > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: TaraPrakash > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > unclear > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourself > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > are > not Hindus. > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > Again, apologies for nagging you. > Cheers, > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > > be > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > > > for > > floating her own party against BJP? > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > have > > won, Hindus have > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > mouth > > next time. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > To: ; > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question. > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > psudo > > > seculars! > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > showing > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > > ------------------------------ > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! > From oishiksircar at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 14:52:02 2007 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 03:22:02 -0600 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> Dear Vedavati: Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindu brother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing it over and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean... May be that should be your new year resolution... Good luck... Oishik P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of a certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... I know we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season! On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu' > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how > I > can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I > > have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask > my > Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are > and > how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments, > then > I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu' > colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can > support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians, > Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour > different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may > > have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will > do what you have suggested. > > As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I > cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this > 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in > this > part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that > happens > to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their > place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge > from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her > neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her > statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my > place > and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or > India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric > imagination of the city. > > It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last > refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'. > Is > there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims' > to > go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning' > > 'us' to? > > Truly, > Zainab > P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots > caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai > concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built. > All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan > 1993 > for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian > descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes. > > > On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > my dear zainab, > > > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to > live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes. > > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station? > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not > > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > > > id you reciprocate? > > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place > where > > babri structure once stood? > > > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think > > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete > with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they > don't > > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... > hence > > demand for reservations..! > > > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible. > > > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future > also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > muslim > > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > votes. > > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take > > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, > instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands > > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too. > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530 > > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead > he > > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > > > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt > > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and > when > > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary > > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? > What > > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in > the > > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one > > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. > > > In peace, > > Zainab (gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > dear zainab, > > > > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only > because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had > voted > > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after > partition. > > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. > > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. > > > > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india > like > > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan, > > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and > > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked > > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. > > > > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis > > > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common > > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. > > > > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the > > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress > > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like > > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings > what > > about 'kashmiri pundits'? > > > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for > granted. > > that is why it is their victory! > > > > vedavati > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > > Hi, > > > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other > words, > > it is humanity that has won.. > > > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in > big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks... > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a > word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to > make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that > all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN > > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority > of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > > becoming another Kashmir.. > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same > God is > > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > through > > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > to > > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > start > > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > > > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place... > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is > expected > > from their month.... > > > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win... > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear > > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > > Hindu > > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > > > are > > not Hindus. > > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand > your > > > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > that > > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers, > > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin > ka > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani > > > be > > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > communal > > > > > for > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > > have > > > won, Hindus have > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > > mouth > > > next time. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > question. > > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > > psudo > > > > seculars! > > > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > showing > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 From aman.am at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 15:02:47 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 15:02:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rs125 crore spent on Mutton in one day in Kashmir.... In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <995a19920712250132l628c1666m4bf08d2261090da7@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, I "did the math" as suggested by Babu. Acc to the census of india website - the projected population of J&K in 2006 is 11,603,000. Adopting simple unitary method; if 11,603,000 people spend Rs 125,00,00,000; each person spends Rs 107.7 on eid However, if each kilo of meat costs Rs 90; 24 lakh kilos of meat shall cost Rs 21,60,00,000 or about Rs 22 crore- which is significantly lower than the Rs 125 crore cited by the article. Cleary the 125 crore includes money spent on other things - presumably masalas to cook the meat etc. Thus each person spends a total of Rs 107.7 of which about Rs 18.6 is on meat - which shall buy him/her about 200 grams of meat. That leaves about Rs 89 for other things. However, a UNI that i have pasted below suggests that the govt fixed price is actually Rs 125 per kilo - which means our 24 lakh kilos of meat now cost Rs 30,00,00,000 or Rs 30 crore - which means each kasmiri now spends about Rs 26 on meat for the same 200 grams. However, the article suggests that meat is actually being sold at Rs 150 per kilo! A true case of blackmarketing and profiteering if there ever was one. Which suggests even more spent per person on that 200 grams of meat - and even less on other things. Further, a tribune article from 2004 -suggests that the price of meat was fixed at a flat Rs 60 - 3 years ago - so it seems that meat prices have been steadily rising - to the extent that the govt fixed price has risen by a 108 per cent in three years! As we all know - rising prices are a sign of surplus production, supply far outstripping demand and people getting richer and richer and richer to actually push the prices up inspite of the economy doing so well. Clearly kashmir much be doing really really well. And to think we in Delhi are forced to pay low prices for our mutton - how typical of this kashmiri appeasing government! best a. Srinagar: After the shifting of civil secretariat, the seat of the government, to the winter capital Jammu, the local administration in Kashmir has almost become non existence as the prices of essential commodities have gone up and there is acute electricity shortage. People in general in the valley alleged that prices of almost all essential commodities has gone up after the shifting of office to Jammu on November 1. There was a sudden increase of Rs two per kg milk being supplied by different milk agencies in the valley. There is no checking of prices and shopkeepers are selling the essential commodities on higher prices defying the government approved rate, said Muhammad Altaf, a telephone booth owner. A UNI correspondent who visited different markets in the city saw shopkeepers selling their products on very high rates. A butcher in the civil line area was selling one kg of meat at Rs 150 against the government approved rate of Rs 125. The rate of one dozen eggs which was Rs 22 before shifting of the offices is now Rs 28 to Rs 30, depending upon the area. Altaf alleged that the flying squads set up by the administration to check the prices are in league with the shopkeepers. They are getting their share in the profit from the shopkeepers, he said adding for records the members of the flying squad are booking some small shopkeepers. The price of one kg cheese which was Rs 70 a fortnight ago has risen to Rs 80 to 90 now. Similarly the prices of all pulses has also gone up by Rs 10 to Rs 15 per kg. An increase of Rs 30 was also registered in five kg tin of cooking oil of different brands. The price of half a kg butter which was Rs 72 before shifting of offices to Jammu, has gone up by Rs ten while Rs 100 to Rs 200 increase was recorded per quintal of rice. Ten kg of flour which was Rs 110 earlier is now being sold at Rs 150 and prices of chicken has also gone up to Rs 65 per kg against the government approved rate of Rs 55. The prices of vegetables have also gone up by Rs five to Rs ten per kg. The common people in Kashmir alleged that the divisional administration and the consumer affairs department have failed to get the prices fixed by the government implemented. They alleged that no action is being taken against the shopkeepers even after making complaints with concerned agencies. The power crisis get complicated in the valley after the shifting of darbar move offices. Besides ten hour daily power curtailment, people in the Kashmir valley alleged that there is frequent electricity failure during other parts of the day also. People at several places took to streets protesting the power failures. UNI On Dec 21, 2007 10:43 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > *Kashmir's Bakr Eid spend crosses Rs125 crore * > http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1140648 > > > "...... > > More than four lakh animals will be slaughtered in Kashmir; around 70,000 in > Srinagar alone. "People have spent huge amounts of money on buying animals > for offering sacrifices this Eid. We have fixed a rate of Rs90 per kg of > meat. More than 24 lakh kgs of meat will be distributed," said Dr Shafat > Kakroo, general manager J&K Sheep Development Board... > > ........" > > > > And they have the gall to say that they are economically impoverished....and > then our PM Dr. Singh attributes the emergence of terrorism to economic > backwardness.......What CoolAid is he drinking? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Dec 25 15:32:51 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 15:32:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30712250202t2c245158n8d93ce9c99bc172c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Vedavati, Zainab ain't going anywhere clearly. It is you who might want to migrate to Pakistan for some time. It'll clear up a lot of things in your head. Like Advani went to Pakistan and called Jinnah secular... Jai Shri Ram! Shivam On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > Dear Vedavati: > > Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindu > brother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it > feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing it > over and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean... > > May be that should be your new year resolution... > > Good luck... > > Oishik > > P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of a > certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... I > know we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I > hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season! From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 16:15:19 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 02:45:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Naeem check before you write In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <337971.19391.qm@web57209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Naeem I see no reason for you to shoot off your mail to my email address. I have not sent or copied any email in the last quite a few weeks to your address. Check before you write. If you are getting copies of all mails posted into Sarai and do not want them, then you need to change your Reader List Settings Kshmendra Kaul Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: Can you all please NOT hit reply-all. Write directly on the readers list. On Dec 25, 2007 3:01 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > Oh by the way Vedavati, you must tell me why you consider Shah Rukh Khan to > be a 'Muslim'. Just because he is 'Khan'? I have not heard Shah Rukh raise > his voice against any atrocities against Hindus or Muslims. And besides, > what kind of an image does he portray in his characterization in films? > Surely not 'Muslim' but an 'urban' boy, slightly 'Hindu' with some temple > going scenes. I am sure that 'Muslim' 'audiences' enjoy this > characterization just as much as 'Hindus' 'Christians' and amoeba do. > > > On Dec 25, 2007 2:22 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > Wow!!! > > That's Vedavati. Certainly true voice about invasion, about > Indian History and partition. At least One person who talked openly on > these topics. Let me tell you that Muslims in India are more powerful than > anybody in the world. They can do whatever they wish, they expect that no > body can do anything. They can beat doctors,poets, they can ruin culture, > they can do blasts in public places, they can do businesses, they can become > leaders to electorate. > > > > > > From one side Islamic ransacking(with all tactics like building masjids on > the debris of temples and using CASTE tab of Hindutva), other side christian > ransacking(like building churches and graceful conversions in the name of > performing weakly prayers), Atheists ransacking of culture(like Karunanidhi > QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF RAM, SO THAT ENCOURAGING EVERYBODY TO LIVE > PRETTY OPENLY) What is left in India now ? No body listening to anybody > about anything. > > > > > > The question is If people opted for India even after partition then what > is the need for PAKISTAN(a separate country for Muslims on the basis of 2 > nation theory) ,later nusense and requests for apologies for the whatever > history from their ancestors, starting from BABAR TO AURANGZEB and later > zinnah to MIM leaders attack on junior doctors at HYDERABAD recently. > > > > > > Is there a single place left in India that a Muslim family live in India > (before and after partition)? > > > > Is there a single place and area left that they try to DOMINATE in their > own style and way(all aggressive attacks and damage initially and then > request for pardons etc)?? > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > my dear zainab, > > > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > mistakes. > > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > station? > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > > > id you reciprocate? > > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > babri structure once stood? > > > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you send > your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs anywhere > because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for > reservations..! > > > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. > > > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > hindu sentiments too. > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, > > > > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal > rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to > live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that > you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or > not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have > to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots > in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the > 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba > Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is > a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no > sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. > > In peace, > > Zainab (gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims > who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india > after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations > to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & > obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, > amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from > ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress & > left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of > 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt > muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always > been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains > still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when > person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' > killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that > hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > victory! vedavati > > > > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: TaraPrakash Cc: > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, > December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi > Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas > to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourselfhave accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all > Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability > to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are > you suggesting thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat > of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented > with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son > murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? > Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own > party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and > Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets > canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before > putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message > -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > Sent: Sunday, > December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> > >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener > for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank > you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote > bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried > the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Tue Dec 25 17:28:20 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 11:58:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] H sentiments up your A In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30712250202t2c245158n8d93ce9c99bc172c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <466125.95143.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Oishik and others (maybe not Zainab) I am sorry, but it seems all that the Psecularists are left to do now is to jerk their knees to show their frustration. Have we fallen so low after the defeat that we can't even think rationally. Tell me frankly, is this the only way left to make a dialogue. Or are we not interested in a dialogue? Frankly, I am not surprised at Modi's victory. To me, life is not so black and white so as to see it through only an election defeat or victory. Do you think some miracles would happen to turn Gujarat into a peace-utopia had the congress come to power? Its going to take ages to turn this country into a sensible place to live in. Let us first make ourselves a little more sensible. S.F. > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR > wrote: > > Dear Vedavati: > > > > Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... > take that from a Hindu > > brother of yours who had done that a long long > time back... trust me it > > feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of > it... you'll keep doing it > > over and over again... shoving up the Hindu > bullshit I mean... > > > > May be that should be your new year resolution... > > > > Good luck... > > > > Oishik > > > > P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the > purposeful use of a > > certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is > indecent or not)... I > > know we need to confront radicalism with reason... > and not drivel... but I > > hope to be excused this time... for the sake of > the holiday season! > _________________________________________ Do you get hundreds of mails everyday? Delete none. Go to http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_mail_9/*https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From vrjogi at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 18:05:13 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 12:35:13 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <16189fe60712250022pa8abebfo7c58dabf85ee7f22@mail.gmail.com> References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <16189fe60712250022pa8abebfo7c58dabf85ee7f22@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: for your kind information, i had many muslim friends in my school ..office. in day to day life we never gave them any special status/ concession or any different treatment. we never found them different than us. they took part in ganapati immersion procession with us, they joined us in playing crackers during diwali, invited us for id. they never faced any sort of descrimination. in my childhood i had stayed in a village where only 2 muslim families were there. but in all these years i never found muslims living in fear. indian military & indian film industry are the best examples of 'secularism' - where nobody talks about religion. all of them work together, nobody complains of any descrimination. shabana azmi is the recipient of maximum no. of awards for her acting talent. i have not heard anybody taking objection for that only just because she is a muslim. this 'fear' 'descrimination' etc. have been 'created' by politicians & seculars which is not allowing common muslims to live peacefully with hindus because that is not in the interest of the politicians. zainab is as indian as i am irrespective of her religion. but if she feels india is not a good place to live she should opt for pakistan. its upto muslims to decide whether to follow these selfish politicians & seculars or to join hands with hindu brothers. Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 13:52:40 +0530From: mohit.thatte at gmail.comTo: vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netDear Vedavati,As an Indian first and a Hindu second, I want to point out a few flaws in your argument.1. Zainab or anyone for that matter has the right to practice any religion they want and this right is granted by the constitution of our country. She need not go anywhere as long as she lives by the laws of the land. 2. Yes, according to the media the riots were started by Muslims perhaps. But how do you know that they were not ISI agents who did it on purpose because their aim was to tear apart the social fabric that binds our beautiful country. 3. About the role of Madrassa's I am going to keep quiet. I have heard too many bad things about indoctrination in Madrassa's to support their existence. Any organization which preaches hate and violence is unlawful and a danger to society and should be eradicated. Of course I am sure there exist good Madrassas as well which serve as they are supposed to. 4. The law should be the same for all. The law MUST be blind to religion. At the same time the law MUST NOT interfere with freedom of choice. 5. I don't understand what you mean by the statement - "join hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building." Many Muslims today live in fear. They are actively shunned by the "mainstream" and castigated as desh-drohi and what not. This is absolute crap (excuse my language). Stereotyping is a typical Indian thing to do - irony in that statement! But just because of a few bad apples, don't say apples are bad for health. If Praveen Togadia was shown to me as the "representative" of Hindus then I would feel all Hindus are bloodthirsty crazies. But that is not true! So there.... ~MohitPS: This is my first post on this list. Please let me know if I have broken any rules or not followed list-etiquette. On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote: my dear zainab, nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own mistakes.(1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra station?even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not a magnonimity shown by hindus? id you reciprocate?did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where babri structure once stood?if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for reservations..! (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?(4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for hindu sentiments too.vedavatiDate: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo : vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. In peace,Zainab (gujju ben)On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their victory! vedavatiDate: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: vrjogi at hotmail.com Hi,You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the problem of communalism on their own motherland.. Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, it is humanity that has won.. Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big mass when there is anything related to their religion...But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in Terrorist attacks... Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal becoming another Kashmir..Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had Godhra would not have taken place...Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected from their month....I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus win...Jai Hind,----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.inhttp://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 _________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- -Mohit Thatte"*Smart one-liner goes here*" _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 18:20:46 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 07:50:46 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] H sentiments up your A In-Reply-To: <466125.95143.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <466125.95143.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4770FCA6.3090202@gmail.com> I fully agree with Fatima. The antics of Vedavati and her type are distasteful and pointless. Distasteful, because they insist on trying to establish the "rightness" of genocidal tyrants. Pointless, because they cannot succeed even if they try for a thousand years. But being abusive is not the way to engage with them. They need to be dealt with through argumentation if one has the taste for any sort dialogue or debate with them, or by ignoring them, for which the most effective way is to use mail filters. Tapas S.Fatima wrote: > Dear Oishik and others (maybe not Zainab) > I am sorry, but it seems all that the Psecularists are > left to do now is to jerk their knees to show their > frustration. Have we fallen so low after the defeat > that we can't even think rationally. > > Tell me frankly, is this the only way left to make a > dialogue. Or are we not interested in a dialogue? > > Frankly, I am not surprised at Modi's victory. To me, > life is not so black and white so as to see it through > only an election defeat or victory. Do you think some > miracles would happen to turn Gujarat into a > peace-utopia had the congress come to power? > > Its going to take ages to turn this country into a > sensible place to live in. Let us first make ourselves > a little more sensible. > > S.F. > > >> On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Vedavati: >>> >>> Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... >>> >> take that from a Hindu >> >>> brother of yours who had done that a long long >>> >> time back... trust me it >> >>> feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of >>> >> it... you'll keep doing it >> >>> over and over again... shoving up the Hindu >>> >> bullshit I mean... >> >>> May be that should be your new year resolution... >>> >>> Good luck... >>> >>> Oishik >>> >>> P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the >>> >> purposeful use of a >> >>> certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is >>> >> indecent or not)... I >> >>> know we need to confront radicalism with reason... >>> >> and not drivel... but I >> >>> hope to be excused this time... for the sake of >>> >> the holiday season! >> _________________________________________ >> > > > > Do you get hundreds of mails everyday? Delete none. Go to http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_mail_9/*https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vrjogi at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 18:28:07 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 12:58:07 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <476FFA35.6030304@sarai.net> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> <476FB726.1010102@sarai.net> <476FFA35.6030304@sarai.net> Message-ID: riots took place in 1992-93 and gujrat killings happened in 2002, but what about those thousand years when muslims killed, looted, raped hindus, what about 1947 when they partitioned bharat which is supposed to be their motherland too. have you ever met any 1947 refugee ? have you ever tried to understand problems faced by them? whether you accept it or not hindus have shown great magnonimity in allowing muslims to stay in this country after 1947. how many times muslims have reciprocated? can you tell me one example?- have they allowed their hindu brothers to build ram temple in ayodhya on the place where babri structure stood? do they accept uniform civil code? are they ready to sing 'vande mataram?' you go & ask dr. abdul kalam whether he has faced any discrimination because of his religion. shabana azami or javed akhtar who keep complaining against socalled discrimination, have got maximum no. of filmfare awards. still why this false propaganda? i am not saying that hindus in gujrat should take revenge of muslims, because i know 'eye for eye will make this whole world blind'. what is bothering me is this type of secularism at the expense of hindu sentiments is causing great harm and unfortunately poor innocent muslim has to bear the brunt. > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 23:58:05 +0530> From: vivek at sarai.net> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > Vedavati,> > To clarify-- the symmetry I speak of refers to the remarkable similarity > (in opposite directions), in rationale and strategy, between right-wing > terroristic hinduism and right-wing terroristic islamism. Whether or > not a given state supports or sponsors or bankrolls your particular > brand of terrorism or not is a separate issue.> > You want to take revenge for what was done to the Kashmiri Pandits. > Don't you understand that radical Muslims will want to take revenge for > what was done to Muslims in Gujarat? > > I ask you again, where do you expect this will end? Where do you expect > these fantasies of taking revenge will land us? Answer me.> > Vivek> > Vedavati Jogi wrote:> > vivek,> > > > this hatred arises due to 'asymmetric' secularism.> > > > otherwise there is no difference between ordinary hindu & ordinary > > muslim. i am a maharashtrian married to a kashmiri hindu. there is a > > huge difference between our respective cultures even though both of us > > are hindu brahmins coming from same socio-economic class.> > > > but to my great surprise there is not much difference between kashmiri > > hindu & kashmiri muslim. before 1989 my husband says there was no > > enmity between two communities, instead he had many muslim friends in > > his college.> > > > but after 1989, hindus became refugees in their own country.actually > > its a shame on all of us. but none of our prime ministers got time to > > visit their camps in jammu or delhi. there is no succhar committee, no > > economic package , no budget allocation for these refugees. our > > secular politicians are ready to 'talk' to 'terrorists' who have > > (1)killed hindus including our military men, (2)pulled down temples, > > (3)burnt houses of hindus ( our ancestor's property too has met with > > the same fate ).> > i can give many examples of this type of asymmetric secularism which > > has its roots in gandhian philosphy.> > > > many hindus have sofar opposed ways of narendra modi, but there is not > > a single muslim who has raised his voice against this asymmetric > > secularism. > > > > hindus are now in no mood to show magnonimity towards terrorists like > > soharabuddin or afzal guru hence they are in no mood to vote for those > > politicians who support these terrorists just because they happen to > > be muslims . > > > > if you visit tehelka or rediffmail websites you will find that > > majority of hindus are now wholeheartedly supporting modi.> > > > when communal riots break out, its an ordinary innocent muslim (and > > not tista settlewad or shabana azmi) who is at the receiving end. > > politicians & socalled seculars remain safe in their own houses.> > > > they must now introspect & try to understand the reasons behind > > modi's victory.> > > > vedavati> > > > > >> > > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 19:11:58 +0530> > > From: vivek at sarai.net> > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > > CC: vadhimoolam at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net; vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > > Vedavati,> > >> > > When I think of this event, I feel a great sadness. Narendra Modi's> > > victory will be the biggest ideological boon for those who hate us. He> > > will be the *cause* of many terrorist events over the next five years.> > > Yes.> > >> > > But let us think twice about the word "terrorist". It is a stupid and> > > inaccurate word. What we have here are two world views that hate each> > > other but are, not coincidentally, symmetrical in their design. It's> > > two opposing revenge-fantasies, in fact. Just think what the logical> > > end of that could be.> > >> > > Vivek> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Zainab Bawa wrote:> > > > Dear Vetri,I am sure Vedavati has a point to make when she says > > that Modi's> > > > victory is victory of the Hindus/victory to the Hindus. I think if > > Vedavati> > > > can explain her point, it will be of great help.> > > > Cheers,> > > > Zainab (gujju ben)> > > >> > > > On Dec 23, 2007 11:28 AM, Vetrivel Adhimoolam > > wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > >> Victory for Hindus? I can't help but bursting in to laughing! > > Joke of the> > > >> twenty first century. Interestingly, such jokes are being cracked > > in this> > > >> forum. Terms like sudo-secular is hardly going to hurt sensible> > > >> intellectuals.> > > >>> > > >> Vetri.> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> ----- Original Message -----> > > >> From: Vedavati Jogi> > > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net ; tapasrayx at gmail.com> > > >> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > >> Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > question.> > > >> its> > > >> a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo> > > >> seculars!> > > >>> > > >> you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > showing> > > >> the> > > >> world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > >>> > > >> vedavati> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> _________________________________________________________________> > > >> Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > >> http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > >> _________________________________________> > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > >> Critiques & Collaborations> > b> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > >> subscribe> > > >> in the subject header.> > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > >> _________________________________________> > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > >> Critiques & Collaborations> > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > >> subscribe in the subject header.> > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > >>> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! > > > _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 18:31:18 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 05:01:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <012f01c8467d$881234d0$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <322513.80144.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tara Prakash Your words were very clear and did not need any interpretation by me. Maybe it was an unfortunate turn of phrase and words by you. In any case, now, you have clarified that you did not mean that all Hindus are evil. You have again said some interesting things. For one: """""" Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him."""" If all the 'forces' named by you were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. AND you go on to say: """"" I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil.""""" Gujarat had a 65% voter turn-out. That is quite a high percentage for any part of the world. If a substantial part of this 65% vote was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (whether they won or lost), then those participating voters would be "evil" too. So, in the "Gujarat according to Tara Prakash" it was 'mainly' the 'evil' contesting and 'mainly' the 'evil' voting. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Dear Kshmendra. An intriguing interpretation of my message. I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did. I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus. Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected. I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives. It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 10:27:08 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:27:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> Modi's victory is a victory of Hindus as almost everyone had started categorising Hindus as someone who have terrorised muslims in Gujarat. Modi not only gave good governance , he laso gave a peaceful and secure state to Gujaratis. His victory is victory to all Gujaratis irrespective of being Hindus , muslims or Parsis. The Good governance wins , the respect of majority community wins , the confidence and security to minorties wins. The Psuedosecularists lost all. This time it was Gujarat .... We all are waiting for Modi in Delhi....just few months to go. On 12/24/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > unclear > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourself > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > are > not Hindus. > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > Again, apologies for nagging you. > Cheers, > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > > be > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > > for > > floating her own party against BJP? > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > have > > won, Hindus have > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > mouth > > next time. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > To: ; > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question. > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > psudo > > > seculars! > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > showing > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 16:05:02 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 02:35:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <127350.15556.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <432701.79198.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> haha! Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 10:33:35 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:33:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Future of KP's after K solution Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712232103n7cdf429aicfedf284c203525e@mail.gmail.com> " Some Kashmiri leaders told me once that the future of the Pandits would be decided when the future of Kashmir would be decided." - Kuldeep Nayyar in Asian Age http://203.197.197.71/presentation/leftnavigation/opinion/opinion/return-to-1952,-solve-kashmir.aspx From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 14:22:04 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 00:52:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <620966.51759.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Wow!!! That's Vedavati. Certainly true voice about invasion, about Indian History and partition. At least One person who talked openly on these topics. Let me tell you that Muslims in India are more powerful than anybody in the world. They can do whatever they wish, they expect that no body can do anything. They can beat doctors,poets, they can ruin culture, they can do blasts in public places, they can do businesses, they can become leaders to electorate. From one side Islamic ransacking(with all tactics like building masjids on the debris of temples and using CASTE tab of Hindutva), other side christian ransacking(like building churches and graceful conversions in the name of performing weakly prayers), Atheists ransacking of culture(like Karunanidhi QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF RAM, SO THAT ENCOURAGING EVERYBODY TO LIVE PRETTY OPENLY) What is left in India now ? No body listening to anybody about anything. The question is If people opted for India even after partition then what is the need for PAKISTAN(a separate country for Muslims on the basis of 2 nation theory) ,later nusense and requests for apologies for the whatever history from their ancestors, starting from BABAR TO AURANGZEB and later zinnah to MIM leaders attack on junior doctors at HYDERABAD recently. Is there a single place left in India that a Muslim family live in India (before and after partition)? Is there a single place and area left that they try to DOMINATE in their own style and way(all aggressive attacks and damage initially and then request for pardons etc)?? Regards, Dhatri. Vedavati Jogi wrote: my dear zainab, nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own mistakes. (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra station? even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not a magnonimity shown by hindus? id you reciprocate? did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where babri structure once stood? if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for reservations..! (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building. if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for hindu sentiments too. vedavati Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. In peace, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their victory! vedavati Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: vrjogi at hotmail.com Hi, You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the problem of communalism on their own motherland.. Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, it is humanity that has won.. Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big mass when there is anything related to their religion... But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in Terrorist attacks... Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal becoming another Kashmir.. Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had Godhra would not have taken place... Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected from their month.... I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus win... Jai Hind, ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 14:43:03 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 15:13:03 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <620966.51759.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can you all please NOT hit reply-all. Write directly on the readers list. On Dec 25, 2007 3:01 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > Oh by the way Vedavati, you must tell me why you consider Shah Rukh Khan to > be a 'Muslim'. Just because he is 'Khan'? I have not heard Shah Rukh raise > his voice against any atrocities against Hindus or Muslims. And besides, > what kind of an image does he portray in his characterization in films? > Surely not 'Muslim' but an 'urban' boy, slightly 'Hindu' with some temple > going scenes. I am sure that 'Muslim' 'audiences' enjoy this > characterization just as much as 'Hindus' 'Christians' and amoeba do. > > > On Dec 25, 2007 2:22 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > Wow!!! > > That's Vedavati. Certainly true voice about invasion, about > Indian History and partition. At least One person who talked openly on > these topics. Let me tell you that Muslims in India are more powerful than > anybody in the world. They can do whatever they wish, they expect that no > body can do anything. They can beat doctors,poets, they can ruin culture, > they can do blasts in public places, they can do businesses, they can become > leaders to electorate. > > > > > > From one side Islamic ransacking(with all tactics like building masjids on > the debris of temples and using CASTE tab of Hindutva), other side christian > ransacking(like building churches and graceful conversions in the name of > performing weakly prayers), Atheists ransacking of culture(like Karunanidhi > QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF RAM, SO THAT ENCOURAGING EVERYBODY TO LIVE > PRETTY OPENLY) What is left in India now ? No body listening to anybody > about anything. > > > > > > The question is If people opted for India even after partition then what > is the need for PAKISTAN(a separate country for Muslims on the basis of 2 > nation theory) ,later nusense and requests for apologies for the whatever > history from their ancestors, starting from BABAR TO AURANGZEB and later > zinnah to MIM leaders attack on junior doctors at HYDERABAD recently. > > > > > > Is there a single place left in India that a Muslim family live in India > (before and after partition)? > > > > Is there a single place and area left that they try to DOMINATE in their > own style and way(all aggressive attacks and damage initially and then > request for pardons etc)?? > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > my dear zainab, > > > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > mistakes. > > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > station? > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > > > id you reciprocate? > > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > babri structure once stood? > > > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you send > your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs anywhere > because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for > reservations..! > > > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. > > > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > hindu sentiments too. > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, > > > > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal > rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to > live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that > you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or > not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have > to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots > in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the > 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba > Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is > a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no > sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. > > In peace, > > Zainab (gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims > who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india > after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations > to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & > obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, > amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from > ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress & > left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of > 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt > muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always > been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains > still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when > person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' > killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that > hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > victory! vedavati > > > > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: TaraPrakash Cc: > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, > December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi > Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas > to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourselfhave accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all > Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability > to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are > you suggesting thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat > of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented > with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son > murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? > Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own > party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and > Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets > canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before > putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message > -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > Sent: Sunday, > December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> > >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener > for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank > you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote > bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried > the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 19:05:25 2007 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:05:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] March for Ghalib's house Message-ID: The Ghalib Memorial Movement Invites you To a March to demand a proper memorial for Ghalib On 26 October, Program- Assemble at 5 pm at Town Hall, Chandni Chowk. At 5.30 proceed to Ghalib's Haveli at Mir Kasim Jaan Gali for candle light procession. There will be speeches and Ghazals at the venue. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 19:22:16 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 05:52:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] The Secular Hypocrisy - B. RAMAN (In OUTLOOK) Message-ID: <802629.56537.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> What led to Modi being voted back to Power should be of great interest to everyone and especially those like Tara Prakash who think that Modi represents "evil". Simple dismissiveness will neither be educative nor fruitful. B. Raman (better known as an analyst fot security/strategic matter and geo-political analyses) presents one point of view (reproduced below) Kshmendra Kaul The Secular Hypocrisy It is Modi's rejection of the hypocrisy of the self-styled secularists which makes him stand apart as a Hindu leader with a difference in the eyes of his admirers, enabling them to say, "Say You Are A Hindu, Hold Your Head High". B. RAMAN "Maut ka Saudagar", 'Liar", "the Ugly Indian" etc etc etc. All the kind of epithets, the like of which till now used to come easily out of the mouth of President George Bush of the US and the pens of his Neo Conservative supporters. Mr Bush should be worried that he has now a growing number of competitors in the coining of demonising epithets in the community of the self-styled secularists of India . What epithets they did not use against Shri Narendra Modi for the last five years and particularly in the weeks before the recent elections to the Gujarat Legislative Assembly, in which the Modi-led Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) won a spectacular victory despite the best (or worst) efforts of these self-styled secularists to demonise him day in and day out! The pathological dislike--even hatred--that some of our journalists--particularly in the electronic media--have for Modi could be seen or sensed as one watched the TV coverage of the counting of votes on December 23, 2007. Initially, as it appeared that the BJP might not do well in the final tally, there was excitement among many of the TV anchors. They thought they had tasted blood. After an hour, the BJP candidates started racing ahead and it became clear the the Congress (I) was in for a drubbing. The disappointment on the faces of some of the anchors was to be seen to be believed. A five-star lady anchor could not help remarking: "Modi might be able to win the elections in Gujarat, but he still can't get a visa to go to the US and other Western countries." Some consolation! Instead of spending their time searching for abusive expressions in the dictionary and in their copy-book of such expressions, if these self-styled secularists had only visited the web sites, discussion groups and blogspots of members of the Hindu community not only in India, but also in other countries of the world--particularly in the US-- they would have noticed something, which might have given them cause for introspection. They would have noticed that Modi is becoming the icon of a growing number of Hindus not only in India, but also in the Hindu diaspora spread across the world. The support for him is not confined only to the Gujarati-speaking Hindus of the world. It is spread right across the Hindu spectrum--whatever be the language or ethnicity or place of origin of the Hindus concerned. They would have noticed that in the Hindu diaspora in the West, more young people admire Modi than grown-ups. Many of his young admirers in the US were born and brought up there and had the benefit of the best of secular education. In spite of this, there is a sense of pride in them that the Hindu community has at long last produced a leader of the calibre of Modi. What is it they see in him? His simple and austere living of the kind associated with the late Kamaraj of Tamil Nadu, but not seen in the leaders of today? His reputation as an incorruptible politician, the like of which is not found anywhere in India--not even in his own party? His style of development-oriented governance, which even his detractors on other grounds do not hesitate to praise? The fruits of his policy, which Gujarat and its people are already enjoying? His tough stance on terrorism? His lucid-thinking on matters concerning our national security? His defiance in the face of the greatest campaign of demonisation mounted against him, the like of which only Indira Gandhi had faced from her political opponents and sections of the media in the 1970s? All these are factors, which influence their favourable perception of him, and which have already been highlighted and analysed in the articles on his impressive election victory. But there is one factor, which is more important than these and which has not found mention in the analyses. That is, for large sections of the Hindus--young and old, even more among the young than among the old-- he gave them a sense of pride in their identity as Hindus. They feel that he removed from their minds long habits of defensiveness as Hindus carefully nurtured by the self-styled secularists. As if to proclaim one's Hindu identity and to assert one's rights as Hindus in their own homeland in which they are in a vast majority (80 per cent of the population) is to be communal, is to become an ugly Indian. For these self-styled secularists, a pretty Indian is a Hindu, who is all the time on the defensive, fights shy of proclaiming his Hindu personality and asserting his rights as a member of the majority community. These self-styled secularists would not address their sermons of secularism to the Islamic countries, where for a Muslim to convert a non-Muslim into Islam is an act blessed by Allah, but for a non-Muslim to convert a Muslim into his religion is a crime calling for the death penalty. For them, secularism is a virtue which a Hindu should practise towards others, but not others towards him. It is Modi's rejection of this hypocrisy of the self-styled secularists, which makes him stand apart as a Hindu leader with a difference in the eyes of his admirers. Bharathiyar, the Tamil poet who inspired millions of Tamil youth to join the independence struggle under Mahatma Gandhi, wrote: "Tamizhanenru Chollada, Talai Nimirndhu Nillada" "Say You Are a Tamil, Hold Your Head High." The growing legion of Modi's admirers in the Hindu community all over the world are saying: "Hindu Enru Chollada, Talai Nimirndu Nillada." "Say You Are A Hindu, Hold Your Head High." They are no longer prepared to be defensive in proclaiming their Hindu idenity, in asserting their rights as Hindus. They are secular in the genuine sense of the word, but for them secularism does not mean developing a guilt complex about being a Hindu and all the time conceding the rights of others. They do not accept the argument that a Hindu, who asserts his rights, ceases to be a secularist. --------------------------------- B. Raman is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20071224&fname=raman&sid=1 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 20:59:25 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00db01c8470a$f3396890$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? Bharat mata ki jai. On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away? Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? Mehta? Maya Vati? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > my dear zainab, > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > mistakes. > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > station? > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > id you reciprocate? > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > babri structure once stood? > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > for reservations..! > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible. > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > hindu sentiments too. > > vedavati > > > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > are assumed to be aligned. > In peace, > Zainab (gujju ben) > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > victory! vedavati > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > Hi, > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > Jai Hind, > > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 21:04:22 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:34:22 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election References: <322513.80144.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010101c8470b$a07825a0$6602a8c0@taraprakash> If this is how you understand the message, let this be the import of my message. I of course do not want to homogenize in any circumstance. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Your words were very clear and did not need any interpretation by me. Maybe it was an unfortunate turn of phrase and words by you. In any case, now, you have clarified that you did not mean that all Hindus are evil. You have again said some interesting things. For one: """""" Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him."""" If all the 'forces' named by you were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. AND you go on to say: """"" I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil.""""" Gujarat had a 65% voter turn-out. That is quite a high percentage for any part of the world. If a substantial part of this 65% vote was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (whether they won or lost), then those participating voters would be "evil" too. So, in the "Gujarat according to Tara Prakash" it was 'mainly' the 'evil' contesting and 'mainly' the 'evil' voting. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Dear Kshmendra. An intriguing interpretation of my message. I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did. I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus. Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected. I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives. It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? Itâ?Ts cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:04:57 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:04:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir -Motives and Magnitude-I Message-ID: <13df7c120712251934v3e52d9em8632f824c1f374b2@mail.gmail.com> On November 9,07 our learned friend Shudda had posted a series of four pieces titled" Annotations to the History of Iconoclasm in Kashmir".This was a response to my posting on various aspects of Kashmir's chequered past. At the outset I must admire that Shudda has really worked hard to read all the books/texts that I had referred to in my postings.I must also make it clear that at point in time did I "admonish" Shudda.If that's how it has come across to the forum or Shudda I apologize for the same. I only suggested Shudda to read the texts to know the truth. Partly due to lack of time on my hands and party due to the futility of postings I had so far restrained myself from posting a reply or even critically evaluating what our dear friend had written. God be praised he showered us with some Holidays(Eid and Christmas) and I got some time to critically and dispassionately examine what Shudda has written or the conclusions he has drawn on the basis of his understanding of the various texts which are being referred to. Before I begin to put forth my perspective on Shudda's observations I have a request to make to Shudda.In the course of our discussions we should stay clear of getting personal and using words like "Kshmendra haunts this forum" or "Rashneek has desires to be acknowledged as a poet" or any such phraseology. What desires I or anyone else is no-ones business here unless I don't prey on someone's desires. We are not politicians and our differences are purely from an ideological perspective. We can discuss without getting personal. Shudda's Deepawali wish has come true.There is less noise here….more light, well I don't know. *Part-I* Let us first try and look at what Shudda is trying to drive home. 1.Barbarianism,iconoclasm and subjugation of the masses (especially those not belonging to their religion) hasn't been exclusive to Muslim Kings alone.To support his arguments Shudda has given various examples from Kalhana's Rajatarangni as well as selective self-suiting references from Jia Lal Kilam's"History of Kashmiri Pandits".He however for various reasons chooses to ignore Jonaraja,Srivara,Shuka and Prajabhatta as works of lesser importance and hence not credible pieces of historiography.He makes no reference to Baharistan-i-Shahi.He also discards Advaitavadini Kaul's "Buddhist Savants of Kashmir" as irrelevant for this discussion.He refers to Romila Thapar , AL Basham and Marxist historian Harbans Mukhiya. 2.Rashneek Kher has painted a picture of Kashmiri Pandits as eternal victims which according to Shudda is far from correct. 3.He indulges in a little bit of mud slinging or pun at everyone in this forum who do not fall in line with the general ideology of the forum, but that aspect I will stay clear of since I have already requested Shudda's co-operation for keeping this impersonal. 4.He brings rather drags Kshmemdra-the poet into the discussion. Let us also summarize what he advertently or inadvertently chose to ignore or has missed: 1.Motives for Iconoclasm and iconoclasm,selective persecution on the basis of faith or ideology & its frequency in the pre-Islamic vis-a-vis Islamic rule in Kashmir. 2.Kashmir's contribution to Literarture, History, Culture,Various schools of Philosophy, Music,Fine Arts,Mahayana Buddhism, Shaivism, before the advent of Islam and the fact that not even one great scholar or new thought came into existence post 14th Century.Lal Ded probably being the last "new thought" on Kashmir's firmament.This also needs to be discussed for it describes how an open society promotes scholarship, culture, art and literature while a dark closed society throttles it. I shall now present my hypothesis as follows' "Acts of Iconoclasm have taken place both in pre-Islamic(approx 3400 years) as well as Islamic period, however the magnitude of iconoclasm in the 400 odd years of Islamic rule of Kashmir has been massive and pointed at a certain faith in order to impose Islam and bring down idolatory. Iconoclasm in pre-Islamic period has been extremely sparse (only 4 kings resorting to Iconoclasm) and had happened for reasons of greed, wickedness, corruption due to absolute power that the monarchs had and in some cases under the influence of the company the king had as was in the case of Harsha'the Turuska Iconoclast". There is no credible historical evidence to suggest that persecution of subjects (in the pre-Islamic period) based on their faith had taken place while there is a whole lot of historical evidence to suggest that persecution(in the Salatin era) of non-muslim subjects happened at a large scale which resulted in 6 exoduses of the Hindu community from the valley.There is evidence also to support that whichever of the two Islamic sects(Shia's or Sunni's)was in power subjugated the other but meted out special torment on non-muslim subjects" Before I proceed to prove my hypothesis,I take this to explain to the forum(or the ones who would like to read this) some issues which Shudda had raised both with reference to sources of Kashmir's history as well as how I (Rashneek Kher) viewed it. *1.Kshmendra and his credentials* I had made no reference to Kshmendra as a source of History.It seems to me that Shudda could not resist the temptation of raking up Kshmendra-the poet to have some fun poked at me ,Pawan Durani and Kshmendra Kaul. Shudda ridicules Kshmendra the Kashmiri poet by making repeated references to Kalhana mentioning that not even one of his list of kings is free of error.Now Shudda doesn't become a great detective by exposing Kshmendra the poet's errors in writing history.I am sure my learned friend knows that no one considers Kshemndra a source of history.Hence this rather irrelevant reference to Kshmendra was but unwanted and could only have been raised to divert the course of discussion or raise some muck. Notwithstanding Kshmendra being a poor historian, I would like the forum (or at-least the one's who care to read this)to know that Kshmendra occupies a place of pride in History of Sanskrit Literature. This is what Dr.Sunil Chandra Ray has to say about Kshmendra.My request once again to Shudda that one should stay clear of muck racking about a literary genius.In such cases ignorance is not bliss and intentional distortion does no one any good. *Ksemendra was a versatile genius. He wrote poems, narratives, didactic and satiric sketches and treatises on rhetoric and prosody. His Bharatamanjari, Ramayanamanjari, Brhathathamanjari, Padyakadambari (lost) and Avadanakalpalata are, respectively, the abstracts of the two great epics, the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, Gunadhya Brhatkatha, Bana's Kadambari and the Buddhist Avadanas. All these were written in verse. Among his other works, known only by name, are Sasivamsamahakavya, Amrtarangakavya, Avasarasara, Muktavali Vatsyayana-sutra-sara, Lalitaratnamale, Kanakajanaki, Nrpavali, Lavanyavati and Pavanapancasika. His known and printed works include Nitikalpataru, Carucarya, Desopadesa, Narmamala, Nitilata, Vinayavalli. Darpadalana, Sevyasevakopadesa, Munimatamimamsa, Caturvarga-Samgraha Aucityavicaracarca Kavikanthabharana and Dasavataracarita.* *In Samayamatrka, one of his most original poems, he describes the arts and trickeries of the harlot. The merit of the work lies in its vivid description of droll life painted with great sharpness of phrasing and characterisation. His Sevyasevakopadesa contains shrewd reflection on the relation between master and servant. The Carucarya, a century of moral aphorisms, gives a pleasing picture of virtue's ways of pleasantness in contemporary **Kashmir**. The Caturvargasamgraha deals with the four objects of human life, dharma, arthal, **kama** and moksa. The Darpadalana is a denunciatory harrangue against human pride which is said to have sprung from birth, wealth, learning, beauty, velour, charity and asceticism. They are dealt separately in each chapter with illustrations on each type of boaster. The Kalavilasa is a satirical poem of ten cantos in which Muladeva, the legendary master of trickery instructs his young disciple in the arts of roguery. Ksemendra's Desopadesa and Narmamala, like Kalavilasa, also represent his satirical proclivity of mind. In the former, he dilates upon the daily life of different depraved sections of people inhabiting the valley such as cheat, miser, prostitute, bawd, ostentatious voluptuary students of Gauda, old man marrying young wives, degraded Saiva Guru, the ignorant grammarians etc. The Narmamala is a sharp satire on the misrule and oppression of the Kayasthas, before the time of Ananta. In his Aucityavicaracarca, Ksemendra tries to propound that propriety or aucitya is the soul of poetry and the figures of speech, if they overstep their proper limits, hurt the rasa. In the Kavikanthabharana he discuses with the subjects of kavitvaprapti, siksa, camatkrti, gunadosabodha and paricayaprapti. Ksemendra's Dasavataracarita gives in regular Kavya style, an account of the ten incarnations of Visnu, viz., Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Nrsimha, Vamana, Parasurama, Rama, Krsna, Buddha and Karkya, which is nothing but an abstraction of the Puranic stories. * This is what chroniclers of Kashmir have to say about him *Dr. Keith called him a polymath while Dr. Stein' has appended the epithet polymister with his name*. This tribute goes a long way in establishing that he did not confine himself to a single form of literary expression but tried his pen over many other forms with equal force and effect. However, in all humility he calls himself 'Vyasadasa' the servant of Vyasa of Mahabharata fame. *2.Rinchen's conversion and Shudda's understanding of that important episode of **Kashmir**'s history* * * Due the importance of Rinchana's conversion as a significant historical event in Kashmir's history I will deal with it right in the beginning. Shudda observes *With the rise of the Salatins (the reign of Rinchen, a Tibetan Buddhist who converted to Islam because the Brahmin orthodoxy disdained him, cannot really be considered the reign of a Muslim king in its entirety and may be seen only as a prologue, or as an interregnum prior to the real decline of Hindu power in Kashmir, primarily as a result of palace intrigues.) It is necessary to remember that **Kashmir** is a part of **South Asia** where the rise of Islam did not accompany a military invasion, but occurred largely due to the example set by missionaries and religious divines.* * * *Let us look at truth now.* * * This is what Baharistan-i-Shahi tells us about Rinchana's conversion. *Rinchan's conversion* *During the early stages of his career, Rinchan showed no inclination towards any of the existing religions.[31] It was in the fitness of things that he embraced one of these religions and vigorously prayed to God the Merciful. At this time only a handful of people in **Kashmir** had embraced Islam. Most of the people were either infidels or dissemblers. But when Rinchan thought of embracing a religion and associating himself with a community he made enquiries about the principles and laws of their religion from the savants among the infidels and the learned men of the times. They beseeched him to join their fold.[32] The Muslims also put before him the principles and teachings of the Islamic faith and invited him to embrace their religion. But owing to serious differences between these two religions and the disagreement [prevailing] among the two religious groups, he was not able to reach any decision. Each community considered its religion the true one and each group induced him to embrace its religion. He was in a fix because of the serious differences and glaring contradictions in the views of these communities. Their heated discussions and discourses led him to no satisfactory conclusion. However, blessed as he was with a dispensation for justice, for 'God helps those who help themselves,' he found the right path. He firmly decided that he would embrace the religion of the first man he would meet in the street after coming out of his house the next morning. He also resolved to join the community to which that man belonged. Next morning he came out of his house. The rays of the sun of divine guidance, bringing every object from darkness to light, liberated him from the darkness of ignorance and disbelief; for all of a sudden, in the neighbourhood of his mansion he saw a dervish offering namaz (the Muslim way of praying), with full devotion. He went towards him. When the dervish had finished his prayer, Rinchan held him by his hand and brought him to his house. Then he called in an interpreter who knew their languages. He asked the dervish his name and then about his religion and the sect he belonged to. The dervish told him that his name was Bulbul Qalandar, that his religion was Islam[33] and that his community was that of Muslims. He disclosed to him that he was a member of the sect of Shah Ne'matullah Wali. He then mentioned to him some of the miracles performed by the Prophet, the virtues and superior qualities of 'Ali, the Imam, and lastly, the extraordinary feats of spirituality performed by Shah Ne'matullah Wali. His (Rinchan's) heart had previously been blackened by the beliefs of a false community.[34] Now he subjected himself to the teachings of the religion of Mustafa (Prophet), and the right principles of the truthful path of Murtaza (Ali), and embraced Islamic religion with sincerity and conviction.[35] He gave up once for all the false and corrupt religions. * Baharistan-i-Shahi clearly says that both religions tried to invite him to its fold. Abul-Fazal in Ain-e-Akbari mentions that Rinchana accepted Islam because of Shah-Mir.Refer Vol II page 386. While it is true that Kashmir did not have armies of Arabs or Persians (although Zulchu did march in with his armies in Kashmir but the purpose was to loot and not conquer land or convert its inhabitants. I am saying this despite the fact that he took thousands of Kashmiri men and women as slaves all of whom perished in a snow storm at Devasar in Anantanag) marching into its land but as far as conversions due to examples set by missionaries and Dervishes are concerned, it is mere hogwash to a great extent. How Islam was spread is clear from the Part-II of my paper. You will see how Hindus were converted by brute force and how atrocities were inflicted by the Osama's of those days. * * Contd….. 3.Let us now move to what else Shudda has to say/comment/observe I will try and give my perspective point by point to Shudda's observations Shudda writes*" In writing back, I was trying to critique the role of the eternal and* *timeless victim that Rashneek Kher had ascribed to the figure of the* *Kashmiri Pandit by selectively quoting passages that speak of Muslim* *iconoclasm and persecution, while neglecting to speak either of Muslim* *patronage (as in the case of Zain Al Abedin, whom Rashneek Kher* *acknowledged only after I pointed out the example of Zain al Abedin) of* *Hindu religious practices, or of instances where non Muslim rulers in* *Kashmir have enacted policies of iconoclasm, temple destruction and* *persecution - of Buddhists and others.* * * Shudda observes that it is he who induced me into accepting that Zainul-Abidin was a just or a tolerant king. Now here is an article I wrote for Merinews on Aug 26,2007.which is many days before this discussion happened on SARAI. http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp;jsessionid=C16DF248CD59DBB4A953073757EC775E?articleID=126078 *I observe * *"However the rule of Sultan Zaina-ul-abidin (Badshah) was a period of glory and prosperity for **Kashmir**. He rebuilt a lot of temples and appointed scholars to re-write Hindu scriptures and texts. A lot of Sanskrit texts were translated to Persian and vice-versa. Peace and great scholars returned to **Kashmir**. Ancient rituals and the customs of the **land** of **Kashmir ** were revived. Islam and Hinduism lived in harmony alongside. In terms of Zain-ul-abidin's achievements his reign can be compared to the reign of the greatest ruler of **Kashmir**, Lalit-Aditya-Muktapida. His reign lasted fifty-two years. With the sad demise of the great leader of men and the torchbearer of secularism, forces of fanaticism came to the fore again."* Obviously "my change of heart about Zainul-abidin" did not happen at the prodding of my dear friend.To make everyone believe that I am an unreasonable bigot or someone who paints all the Muslims with the same brush doesn't seem to have succeeded for I admire Zainul –abidin and as be clearly seen I have compared his reign with the greatest kings of Kashmir.Also please mark my choice of words to describe the great monarch.This is despite the fact that Zainal-abidin did not abolish Jaziya but only lessened it. The very imposition of Jazziya itself is a mark of sickness irrespective of which religion,creed or caste imposes it.It is not just the monetary taxation but the social stigma associated with being a non-muslim in a Muslim State much like being a Shudra in a caste ridden society.It was eventually Akbar who abolished Jazziya for Pandits only to be re-imposed by his grandson Aurangzeb.That is a different story for another time. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:07:17 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:07:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-II Message-ID: <13df7c120712251937i86e108ma7f6aca8fbcbf9d@mail.gmail.com> *PART-II* MOTIVES BEHIND ICONOCLASM-THE MUSLIM KINGS Shudda observes *It is no one's case, least of all mine, to state that iconoclasm by* *Muslim Kings in the sultanate period in **Kashmir** did not occur. It did,* *and my contention is that it is incorrect and biased to say that* *iconoclasm occurred only at the behest of Muslim rulers in **Kashmir**.* May I ask Shudda to show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm happened only in the times of Muslim Rulers.Can he be kind to show me that posting where I have said so.As far as I remember I haven't anywhere mentioned that it was Muslim Rulers alone who were Iconoclasts.I would still be ready to be corrected if I said so anywhere. What I however do re-affirm that while a miniscule percentage of Hindu,Hun(like Mihirkula),Buddhists (like Jaluka) rulers did destroy temples and some destroyed Buddhist Viharas too(of course not Shankarvarman)the reasons for the same were not religious expansion or bigotry.Unlike Muslim kings they did not think that they have a holy aim of converting Darul-Harb to Darul-Islam.The aim was not to subjugate or make people change their religion or faith but anything else.Most of the Muslim rulers destroyed temples thinking that they were doing a righteous act and were promoting Shariah by eliminating infidels(Kafir's).Many thought that they were emulating the Prophet(SAW) little realizing the difference that what Prophet Mohammed (PBH) had done while destroying the idols at Kabba(a pagan place of worship then and a mosque now) was destroying idolatory and not idols.Iconoclasm in Kashmir was endorsed by the Amirs of the day(whether general Muslims supported it or not can be a matter of debate much like whether majority Hindus supported or condemned the barbaric destruction of Babri Mosque or whether Iconoclasm, in present day Kashmir has the mandate of the Muslims of the Valley or not).There are examples galore to prove this point.In order to put this in perspective I am giving some references. *From Bahristan-i-Shahi* * "Sultan Shihabu'd-Din addressed himself to such works as would help him get peace in the world hereafter. He arranged a tomb and a burial place for himself to be used after his death. Towards the fag end of his life, he was infused with a zeal for demolishing idol-houses and destroying the temples and idols of the infidels. He destroyed the massive temple at Beejeh Belareh [31] (Bijbehara). He had designs to destroy all the temples and put an end to the entire community of the infidels.[32] " "Again it needs to be recorded that for some of the time which the holy Amir spent in **Kashmir** he lived in a sarai at 'Alau'd-Din Pora. At the site where his khanqah was built, there existed a small temple which was demolished and converted into an estrade on which he offered namaz (prayer) five times a day and recited portions of the Qur'an morning and evening. Sultan Qutbu'd-Din occasionally attended these congregational prayers." " [It may be recorded] that the temples of idol-worshippers, which had been destroyed and razed to the ground by the religious-minded and justice-loving Sultan Sikandar- God bless his grave and bless him-had been rebuilt and rehabilitated by Zainu'l 'Abidin. He had permitted idolators and polytheists to revive the practices of infidelity and they had propagated heresy (kufr) and false religion (din-i batil). With the support of some more kings,[96] the infidels had flourished day after day. But with the support and authority of Malik Musa Raina, Amir Shamsu'd-Din Muhammad undertook a wholesale destruction of all those idol-houses [97] as well as the total ruination of the very foundation of infidelity and disbelief. On the site of every idol-house he destroyed, he ordered the construction of a mosque for offering prayers after the Islamic manner." The idolatory and heresy which had existed prior to his coming to this place were effectively replaced by his preaching and propagation of Islamic laws and practices. He brought honour to all the infidels and heretics (zandiqa) of **Kashmir** by admitting them to the Islamic faith and bestowed upon them many kinds of rewards and benefactions. It is publicly known as well as emphatically related that during his life-time, with the virtuous efforts and elaborate arrangements made by the fortunate Malik Musa Raina, twenty-four thousand families of staunch infidels and stubborn heretics were ennobled by being converted to the Islamic faith. [99] It is difficult to compute the number of people who had hitherto indulged in corrupt practices of a wrong (false) faith and dissent and were put on the right track under the proper guidance of Mir Shamsu'd-Din 'Iraqi .[99] * *In fact the transmitter of (God's) grace (Mir Shams 'Iraqi) conferred favours upon the righteous Malik Musa Raina and gave him blessings which enabled him to fulfill that cherished task. Indeed, fortunate is one who has been able to become the recipient of such special consideration at the hands of a highly venerable and elderly person like him (Amir Shamsu'd-Din). After Sultan Sikandar-God's peace be upon him-no one among the Muslims who wielded authority over this country rendered as much service to Islam by its propagation and advancement as Malik Musa Raina did. Nobody was able to make as organized an effort as he did towards the advancement and furtherence of the Muhammadan religion. * Please look at how the kings viewed their acts.One thought he would get peace by destroying temples.Sultan Sikander has been defined as religious minded and justice loving by the historians of the day while in no case has Kalhana supported or even condoned breaking of religious places.He heaped scorn on kings who resorted to this. Now that's the difference. While Muslim Kings, their Amirs and even most Muslim Historians thought that the King was indulging in act of religious righteousness, kings belonging to other faiths had no such grandiose megalomania of reaching heaven (where houris would await them) by resorting to such acts. It makes an important reading into the mindset of the Muslim rulers.They clearly saw a holy purpose of converting "people of false faiths" like Shudda and me to the only "true religion".In their understanding of Islam they were doing great acts and their Amirs and most Historians of that period(especially the foreign historians who came with them ) supported this sickness unlike Kalhana who outrightly condemned these acts. Read the Last line of my reference from the Bharistan-i-Shahi *Nobody was able to make as organized an effort as he did towards the advancement and furtherence of the Muhammadan religion. * Here we are.The purpose is clear "Advancement and Furtherance of the Mohammedan Religion". *Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami* * * *For details of forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam and their massacre in case they refused to be converted, see Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami; pp. 178-80. One significant detail is that three kharwars (one kharwar is approximately equal to eighty kilograms) of Hindu ceremonial thread (zunnar) were burnt by Sultan Sikandar. (Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami, Pir Ghulam Hasan, Vol II, RPD,* Srinagar 1954.)* * * *Other Sources for Sikander Butshikan alone* *This is what historians (mostly Muslims) have to say. * *"He [Sikandar] prohibited all types of frugal games. Nobody dared to commit acts which were prohibited by the Sharia. The Sultăn was constantly busy in annihilating the infidels and destroyed most of the temples..." (Haidar Malik Chădurăh: Tărîkh-i-Kashmîr; edited and translated into English by Razia Bano, Delhi, 1991, p. 55.) * *"[He] strove to destroy the idols and temples of the infidels. He got demolished the famous **temple** of **Mahădeva** at Bahrăre. The temple was dug out of its foundation and the hole (that remained) reached the water table. Another temple at Jagdar was also demolished… Răjă Alamădat had got a big temple constructed at Sinpur. (...) The temple was destroyed [by Sikandar]." (Khwăjah Nizămu'd- Dîn Ahmad bin Muhammad Muqîm al-Harbî: Tabqăt-i-Akbarî translated by B. De, Calcutta, 1973)* * "Sikander burnt all books the same way as fire burns hay". "All the scintillating works faced destruction in the same manner that lotus flowers face with the onset of frosty winter." (Srivara, Zaina Ra-jtarangini). This I am giving more for its poetic value rather than what it says.* Also please do pay attention to the following *"At the behest of Shams Iraqi, Musa Raina had ordered 1500 to 2000 infidels to be brought to his door-steps every day by his followers. They would remove their sacred threads, administer Kalima to them, circumcise them and thrust lumps of beef into their mouths,'' mentions Tohfatul Ahbab.* *Role of so-called Sufis*: While no one can deny the fact that Kashmir was greatly influenced by Sufism and has produced some great Sufi saints and mystic poets(both Hindus and Muslims),we must stay clear of attaching a Sufi tag to every Muslim Godman.On one hand we have the great Sufi Tradition of Nund Rishi,Shams Faqir,Ahmed batwario,Rahim Saab,Swoch Kral,Prakesh Ram Kurigami,Govind Kaul,Ahmed Dar, on the other we have self styled god-men like Bul Bul Shah and Syed Ali Hamdani on whom this label of Sufi is stuck to make them more palatable to the larger masses.Let us understand this in the context of Shudda's assertions. Shudda says *It is necessary to remember that **Kashmir** is a part of **South Asia** where the rise of Islam did not accompany a military invasion, but occurred largely due to the example set by missionaries and religious divines.* * * My comments Syed Ali Hamdani or Shah-I Hamdan as he is popularly called by Kashmiri Muslims is widely regarded as the man responsible for conversion of Kashmiris to Islam.Shudda has agreed in our previous discussions on this very forum that the Shah-i-Hamadan mosque was built after demolishing a Kali temple(and there are enough historical records to prove that, apart from the fact that to this day Pandits perform prayers alongside the converted structure).Now that itself should have restrained a scholar of Shudda's repute to make the statement that he has made above. That not-withstanding I would like to inform the forum that before Shah-i-Hamadan left Kashmir he ordered the king to impose the following sanctions on Non-Muslims.I am enumerating them for your reading please. 1) The Hindus will not construct any new temples under the rule of Muslims. 2) They will not repair old temples fallen into ruins. 3) They will respect Muslims. 4) They will not dress like Muslims. 5) They will not ride a horse with saddle & bridle 6) They will not put on a ring. 7) They will not carry swords or bows & arrows. 8) They will not adopt Muslim names 9) They will not harbour spies or act as spies 10) If any relation of their's wants to embrace Islam, they will not oppose it. 11) If a Muslim comes to attend a Hindu meeting he will be respectfully received. 12) They will receive Muslim travelers into their houses & provide them hospitality. 13) They will not prevent Muslim travelers from staying in their temples & shrines. 14) They will not mourn their dead loudly. 15) They will not buy Muslim slaves. 16) They will not build houses in neighbourhood of Muslims. 17) They will not sell intoxicating drinks. 18) They will not carry their dead near the grave-yards of Muslims. 19) They will not openly practice their customs & usages among Muslims. 20) They will not give up their traditional dress so that they can be distinguished from Muslims. *In the end the fiat in the form of an advice dictated if any Hindu dares to flout any of conditions, he should be first looted and then possession of his body is halal(Zakhiratul- Muluk).* (Source:Dr.Qayoom Rafiquee's doctoral thesis titled"Sufism in Kashmir") In case this is not enough proof for anybody's flight of fancy which makes him believe that Islam spread peacefully here are some examples from the same thesis.If this isn't persecution in the name of religion then I wonder what is. Writes Dr. Qayoom Rafiquee, "Mir Mohammad was not ready to give the status of Zimmis to the Hindus of Kashmir and treated them as kafirs who were not obedient to Islam, but were at war with it". Sufism in Kashmir, P-101 Again to quote Rafiquee, 'the medieval Muslim sources inform us emphatically that infidelity was uprooted from Kashmir through the influence of Mir Mohammad'. Sufism in Kashmir 101. *And sadly some of us have the cheek to say Islam in **Kashmir** spread through divinity and personal example of missionaries.* This should put to rest any imaginative thought processes of Islam spreading in Kashmir through "divine incarnation of Dervishes and examples set by missionaries".If someone still wants to stick to his point then I hope the same divinity that dawned on our forefathers in Kashmir dawns on him too. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:09:03 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:09:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III Message-ID: <13df7c120712251939nac0317ao2a65316971ebcdb4@mail.gmail.com> PART-III I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the Marxist historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution and Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not just Kashmir alone. It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed as a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone their acts. Harsha"The Iconoclast" Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the context of the above discussion. My learned friend writes *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of sixty four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"* This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises a question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the beginning of second series of his essay he says *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval history in **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing embodies a singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. He describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers without favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts to maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration of reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the seasons, of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - all furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic and the historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit of the readers *He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* * * *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm and Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone* To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt what my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious leanings.. * * *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes how unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya Muktapida, Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw development and prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel despots.Till the advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less indigenous rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the advent of Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting thread among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their subjects." * * * *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims* Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of their bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be ,we will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like the forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an American Student. * * *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate** **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. * * * *http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm* *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her Prof. Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate the hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed temples in neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but that Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. * *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline published by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. Eaton did publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the destruction and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In his article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's and his colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the difference in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the temples of other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally devastating attacks from Muslim armies.* *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had heard about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most scholars consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I pointed out that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only looting the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for ideological reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, the intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in Rajasthan and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the neighboring kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered to be endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own kingdom, the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This type of vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a trophy not as an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, the king who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the captured statue in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious structure in his kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even grander temple and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have similarities, the motivations were very different. * *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the exception to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not impressed by the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples offered to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a guilty as Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told suggested to several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that tact about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in **India**really believes them. The evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of temples and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples by the various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist historians in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of Hindu-driven carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to uncover any real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. * Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist Keonraad Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* * *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:*** *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila Thapar. Of Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), I have no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper. Meanwhile, I have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a clinching testimony.* *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111) has been called the "Nero of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" (S.B. Bhattacherje: Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi 1995, p.A-20). He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most Hindu and Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he had created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general data on 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a typical Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also did, viz. to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, **Kashmir** had already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and Turkish troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.* *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he still ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the Islamic ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his centurions" (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which targeted Hindu temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than temples. All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, two of them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." (7:1095)* *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing a separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a somewhat peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic tradition of iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and looted Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his employ, he behaved like a Muslim.* *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites as proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read it at all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is making. Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's testimony in the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or she simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, she has been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's testimony even while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. * *A.L.Basham* Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics" * Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil counseller Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting down the images of the gods" It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due to various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did. Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by saying that the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's explanation that King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or outsiders) who in this case happened to be Muslims. Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while the contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's Rajatarangni Book 7 verse 1095 *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." * Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places Kalhana uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word Turuska in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni. Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard Elst,the reasons for which are the following. 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud of Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible sources of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that Islamic rule was still some two centuries away. 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's source of his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shudda himself concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's argument,albeit speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic identification of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle with the complexity of his reign that I have referred to above" Irrespective of the arguments set forth by Romila Thapar,Basham,Elst and others it is conclusively proved in case of Harsha that although he did destroy temples and Viharas both but the reason was not to promote Hinduism or to subjugate Buddhism.What however can be argued is that he may be doing at the behest of whom Kalhana calls Turks(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) what later Muslim kings did.ie.Try and Destroy the very root of Hinduism in Sarada Desha. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:12:24 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:12:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-IV Message-ID: <13df7c120712251942v25581e10u4a4b589ff63932bd@mail.gmail.com> *Part-IV* *Shudda's Rajatarngani* Let us now move to the third part of Shudda's observations where he has written in detail about the kings who burnt temples,destroyed Viharas etc etc.Although I have read both R.S.Pandit's translation of Rajatarangni as well as Aurel Stein's translation( complete with notes and his travels to many places mentioned by Kalhan)the notes that I had made on both (as a Class XI student,I and my father traveled to a lot of places which Kalhana mentions in Rajatarngni) were burnt when my house was razed to ground by terrorists(sorry divinely ordained dervishes and missionaries) on the Janam Asthami of 1990.I will refer to Aurel Stein's translation and footnotes since in my opinion he presents a more detailed account of Kalhana's Kashmir. Another reason for me to refer to his translation and footnotes is that R S Pandit was no historian of any repute, whatsoever, while Aurel Stein's extensive work leaves little to imagination. Thus wherever he could he has closed loops so that half-baked historians don't go on an imagination hunt and derive their own meanings. (I apologize for not being in a position to use diacritical marks.) Let us look at each king mentioned by Shudda 1.*Jalauka:*This King finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 108-152.,Vol 1,page 26.Aurel Stein's translation. While it is true that he did destroy one Vihara(and not many Buddhist Shrines as Shudda imagines and later tells us) the reason for the same as mentioned in Rajatatarangni is that he was disturbed while sleeping because of the music emanating from the said Vihara.It clearly is no religious zeal that drove him to do this act. This can be easily understood the following(Tarnaga 1,140-144)page 26 Book 1,Volume 1, Aurel Stein's Translation: "When you had lately been kept from sleep by the noise of the music of the Vihara,you had at the instigation of wicked persons caused in your anger the destruction of the Vihara.The excited Bauddhas thought of me and sent me forth to kill you.But then the Boddhisattvas called me and gave me the following directions:'That great king is a Sakya(Mahasakya).You cannot hurt him;but in his presence,O good one,you will obtain liberation from darkness(sin).In our name you shall exhort him who has been ed into guilt by wicked people,to give up his hoarded gold and to build a Vihara.If he does so,no misfortune shall befall him in consequence of the destruction of the Vihara,and atonement shall thus be made for him and his instigators." The king repents for the sin he committed in a fit of anger and later builds the Vihara and names it after the divine sorceress.The same can be easily verified by the following Taranga 1,147,page 26,Vol 1 of Aurel Stein's translation "Thereupon the king built the Krtyasarama Vihara,and worshipped there the divine sorceress who had been freed from darkness" So Shudda's assertion that"Jalauka's destruction of Buddhist shrines" is but an incorrect statement.There is only one Vihara in question and not many shrines.Probably in order to prove his point my friend is very liberal in the use of alphabet (s).One may also be tempted to ask if Jalauka was himself a Buddhist,he being the son of Ashoka. Notwithstanding his religious leanings we learn from Rajatarangi that he did destroy 1(one) Vihara for which he later repented by building a Vihara. Now here I ask Shudda to name one Muslim ruler in Kashmir who repented for his acts of Iconoclasm and re-build temples. 2.*Abhimanyu-1.*This king finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 174-184,Vol1 page 31-33,Aurel Stein translation. We straight away go to the verses which Shudda mentions as his proof of Iconoclasm and religious persecution by Abhimanyu 1.These are 177-181. I don't even deem it worth discussing what can be best be defined as Shudda's figament of imagination.Yet for purpose of clarity I discuss it.Theimportant verse is verse 181 of Taranga 1,page 33,Vol1 of Stein's translation.This is how it reads "At that time there manifested itself some miraculous power through which the Brahmans,who offered oblations and sacrifices,escaped destruction while the Bauddhas perished" >From this verse our friend presumes that Brahmans killed or persecuted Buddhists.He supports this what R.S.Pandit in his footnote to the verses 180-181 says"this (snow that killed the Buddhists) is PERHAPS a poetic description of the persecution of Buddhists during this era." One is tempted to ask what is the source on the basis of which R.S.Panditpresumes his PERHAPS. R.S.Pandit being a person of shallow knowledge of history can be pardoned for his ignorance but when someone like our own Shudda (who I greatly regard for his scholarship) uses this as an example of Iconoclasm or Persecution,it is but sad.We could have agreed with RS Pandit,if anything in the Rajatarangi had mentioned Abhimanyu 1, as an unjust ,licentious,communal or ill mannered moanarch.But that is not the case. Not only this,while Aurel Stein makes a detailed foot note of the verse 180,he doesn't even bother to write a word about 181 since to any intelligent reader it is more than self explanatory. 3.*Nara**:This king finds mention in Taranaga 1,verses 197-275,Vol 1,page 34-41 of Aurel Stein's translation.* Shudda's explanation of the verses 199-200 of Taranaga 1,are more or less correct.While Stein mentions the woman in question as the king's wife R.S.Pandit mentions her as king's lover.Whichever be the case the Buddhist monk does seduce the king's wife through magical powers. Enraged by this the king does destroy thousands of Viharas.The reason for destruction of Viharas is clear and needs no explanation.Though an unpardonable sin,clearly religious zeal or conversion or selective persecution is certainly not mentioned. 4.*Mihirkula:This king finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 289-324,page 43-48,Vol1,Aurel Stein's translation.* Shudda writes"Here we enter the terrain of strictly historical account of iconoclasm in Kashmir" He refers to verses 289-293 of Taranga 1.Now let see what is said in them I re-write Stein's translation for the benefit of the readers and for an easy explanation later. 289-293"Then his son Mihirkula,a man of violent acts and resembling Kala(Death),ruled in the land which was overrun by hordes of Mlecchas.In him the northern region brought forth ,as it were,another god of death,bent in rivalry to surpass the southern region which has the Yama(as its guardian).The people knew his approach by noticing the vultures,crows and other birds which were flying ahead eager to feed on those who were being slain within his armies' reach.This royal Vitala was day and night surrounded by thousands of murdered human beings,even in his pleasure-houses.This terrible enemy of mankind had no pity for children,no compassion for women,no respect for the aged." >From the above I could not find out anything that would indicate to me that he killed Buddhists alone or burnt their Viharas only and not Hindu Temples.If anyone else can,I would be more than willing to be corrected.However as Shudda mentions that R.S.Pandit in his foot note says"Huns carried out terrible persecution of Buddhism,destroying Stupas and Viharas and massacring the monks.Although the Huns were hostile to Buddhism,they protected Saivism and their kings built temples in honour of Shiva" *I started looking at the other verses that Kalhana writes for this cruel king.Surprisingly the word Buddhist or Vihara or Stupa simply does not find a mention in the verses which have described Mihirkula's despotic regime.Sothe question of him destroying them simply does not arise unless in someone's imagination.It is possible that other Huna rulers might have done what RS Pandit writes as his footnote.Even that seems improbable,because if any such references would have been there Shudda would have found them. * As far as building temples Kalahana says in Verse 306,Taranga 1 Vol1,page 46 the following"Thus,evil-minded as he was,he founded at Srinagari the (shrine of Shiva) Mihireshwara,and in Holada the large town called Mihirpura" *I hope building a Shiva temple is no proof of Iconoclasm.* As for giving Agraharas,Shudda himself acknowledges that he gave it to Brahmanas born in the Gandhara country at Vijayeshwara.What is notable is the scorn that Kalhana heaps on these foreign Brahmanas for accepting Agraharas from this wretched king.This is how Stein translates this verse. Ref verse 307,Taranga 1,Vol1,page 46, Brahmanas from Gandhara,resembling himself in their habits and verily themselves the lowest of the twice-born,accepted Agraharas from him" *So Shudda's assertion"Here we enter the terrain of strictly historical account of iconoclasm in **Kashmir**" falls flat for want of credible historical proof.* 5.*Jayapida:This king finds mention in Taranga 4,Verses 402-659,page 158-180,Vol 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* This is one king who Kashmiri Pandits need no mention of.Almost all of us in our hour of vanity refer to the miraculous powers of our forefathers the curse of who led to Jayapida's painful end.We often take re-course to our past and foolishly so. What Shudda has observed with respect to Jayapida is true and just goes on to prove my point that the reasons for Icocnoclasm or persecution by non-muslim kings of Kashmir could have been anything but religious expansion or promotion of their own faith.That greed was the motive for his persecution of his subjects can be easily testified by this verse Ref verse 628,Taranaga 4,page 177,Vol1,Stein's Translation "In his persistent greed he went so far in cruelty,that for three years he took the (whole) harvest,including the cultivator's share" 6.Ksemagupta:This king finds mention in Taranga 6,verses 150 to187,page 247 to 250,Vol 1,Aurel Stein's translation. Shudda refers to Ksemagupta's iconoclasm by his act of burning down of holy Jayendra Vihara and subsequent errection of temples.Let us ourselves read what Kalhana says about this incident Ref:171-173 verses,Taranga 6,page 248,Vol1,Stein's translation. "In order to kill the Damara Samgrama,who when attacked by the assassins,had enetered the famous Jayendravihara,he(Ksemagupta) had the latter burnt down without mercy.Taking from this Vihara,which was entirely burned down,the brass of the image of Sugata(Buddha), and collecting a mass of stones from decaying temples,he erected the (temple of Siva) Ksemagaurisvara in a market street of the city,thinking foolishly that the foundation of the shrine would perpetuate his fame" Now,the motive for burning the Vihara is known to us as is the foolish reason for erecting a temple.The king proves himself to be a wicked soul but to attribute the reasons of religious bigotry for the destruction would be taking the argument too far. The argument that he used material from the Vihara to build the temple is fallacious because Stein's translation itself is clear when it reads"and collecting a mass of stones from decaying temples"Even the Sanskrit verse reads"Devagrah" which means temple.Kalhanauses the word "Chaityas or Viharas" to describe Buddhist places of worship ,although a Chaitya is the place of worship while a Vihara is a monastry in which Chaityas were generally situated. 7. *Harsha:This king finds mention in Taranga 7 and Kalahana has written extensively on this king.Ref Taranga 7,verses 829 to 1732.page 333 to 402 of Volume 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* We have already looked at the views of various historians and analysed their writings with respect to Harsha"the Iconoclast"However the discussion would be incomplete unless we refer to what Kalhana writes about this wretched king.We will also see the impact of the word "Turuska" which has baffled historians. There can be no difference of opinion as far as his title of Iconoclast goes. Let us try and understand the reasons for his Iconoclasm based on Kalhanas description.This is what Aurel Stein writes in "Harsha's temple de-spoliation" Ref Introduction Chap 5,sec 5,page 113,Volume 1 of Aurel Stein's translation. "Extravagant expenditure on the troops and senseless indulgence in costly pleasures involved Harsa in grave financial troubles.From these he endeavoured to free himself by ruthless spoliation of sacred shrines.Kalhanarelates with some humour how the incidental discovery of the treasures hoarded at the temple of King Bhima Sahi had turned the king's attention to this method of replenishing his ex-chequer.After the temple treasuries had been ransacked,Harsa proceeded to the still more revolutionary measure of confiscating divine images in order to possess himself of the valuable metal of which they were made.Kalhana records the strange fact that as a preliminary step the sacred images were systematically defiled through outcast mendicants.As Kalhana is particular to specify the few metal statues of gods throughout Kashmir which escaped Harsha's clutches,we cannot doubt the extent of Harsha's iconoclasm.*Can the latter have been instigated or encouraged somehow by the steady advance of Muhammadanism in the neighbouring terrorities?Kalahana,when relating these shameful confiscations,gives to Harsha the epithet"Turuska",ie Muhammadean,and later on makes a reference to Turuska captains being employed in his army and enjoying his favour."* >From the above it almost seems clear that Harsa was greatly influenced by Muhammedeans and is likely to have committed these acts of Iconoclasm under their influence if not at their behest.From the way he went on to destroy and defile almost all icons, without bias either in favour of Hindus or Buddhists draws a parallel to Muslim rulers who did the same.Harsa made no difference when it came to defiling Buddhist and Hindu images makes us believe that he was purely an iconoclast and the philosophy of Iconoclasm where every image deserves to be destroyed is a concept rooted in one Semitic religion alone. Let us also look at the word Turuska and its connotations with regard to Kalhana's Rajatarngni.In all there are 19 references to the word Turuska in Rajatarangni.There is one reference to Yavan in Rajatarangni.There are 14 references to the word Mlecchas in Rajatarngni. I agree with Shudda that words like Yavan,Turuska and Mleccha were used interchangeably to describe foreigners/outsiders/Muslims by Kalhana.ThatKalhana uses the word "Turuska" to describe kings like Husha,Jushka and Kanishka cannot be refuted.We however need to study the word "Turuska" in the context of how Kalhana uses it for Harsa.We also need to see how Stein understands this word.For the benefit of the readers I give below all the references to the word in Rajatarangni. Refer:Index Vol 2 page no 546 of Aurel Stein's translation. Turks,their habits iv .179;kings Huska,Juska,Kanishka called Turuskas I,170,viii 3412;enemies of Lalliya Sahi v 152;soldiers of Hammira(Mahumud), vii 51,56,70,118;sell slave girls,520;mercenaries supported by Harsa,1149;Harsa fears attack from Turuskas,1159;Muhammadean allies of Bhiksacrara,viii 885,886,919,923;northern allies of Dards,2843;invaders of the Punjab,3346;artist from Turuska Country vii.528;Harsa called Turuska i.e.Muhammadean,1095. We need to look at the Turuska reference with regard to Harsa to understand whether it was "Mohammadean" that Kalhana meant by Turushka.As far as Stein is concerned he seems to be in no doubt whatsoever.This can be safely understood by the last of the references given above and given again for easy reference.( Harsa called Turuska i.e.Muhammadean,1095,vii). As for other references except for one where Kalhana uses Turuska to describe Huska,Juska and Kanishaka all other references clearly point out that Kalhana uses Turuska as a synonym of Mohammedean.. Still let us look at some specific references Invaders of Panjab,viii,3346,page 261,Vol 2,Aurel Stein's translation……Prince Sangiya,the younger brother of Kamaliya,consecrated (a linga) under his own name.He was born from a race of Ksattriyas,who owing to their native place being within the territory of the Turuskas had learned nothing but cruelty…… Here Stein in his footnote writes..K refers to the condition of the Panjab after the Muhammadean conquest. Soldiers of Hammira(Mahmud),vii 51,56,70,118, Vol 1,pages 270-276,Aurel Stein's translation These verses make for an interesting reading because they describe the Muhhamdean conflict with the Hindu-Shahi dynasty.In this rather detailed footnotes of the verses 47-69 Stein writes"There is no doubt that Kalhana's narrative ,vii 47-69,relates to one of the campaigns which Mahmud of Ghazna directed against Trilochanpala and his allies.The identity of our account with Mahmud has been recognized by REINAUD,lc.Already before him Thomas( J.R.A.S,ix p.190sq)had shown the derivation of this term from the Arabic tittle Amiru-l-mumenin,and its application on coins and elsewhere to Ghaznavid Sultan.Reinaud has also rightly pointed out that the expression Turuska used for Trilochanpala's opponents ,vii 51,56, is particularly appropriate for Mahmud's army,which chiefly consisted of soldiers of Turkish origin." Documentary evidence heavily supports the fact that Harsa was greatly under the influence of his employed Muslim commanders.From the available references it can also be safely understood that in the context of Harsha Kalhana uses the word Turuska to refer to Muslims alone. >From the above one can conclude that though Harsa's iconoclasm had its origins in greed and later in enjoyment of heresy and corruption resulting from power the effect of his Muslim friends can simply not be ruled out.Inmy opinion he was the first of the kings who started the process which was to be later followed by other"Turuska" kings. As is said "Coming events cast their shadows before'The catastrophe that was to hit Kashmiris later had its shadow in Harsha"the turuska". *Sankarvarman:This king finds mention in the Taranga 5 verses 128-227 page 202-216,Volume 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* I wrote in my posting to Shudda"Nowhere has Kalhana mentioned Shankarvarman destroying Viharas" Shudda gives us this verse from Taranga 5 as a proof of Sankaravarman's destruction of Buddhist Viharas.Let us read the verse no 161 of taranga 5.R.S.Pandit's translation pg 207. "Thus the ruler,who possessed but little character,had whatever was of value at Parihaspura,carried off in order to raise the fame of his own city" Aurel Stein's translation of this verse reads like a copy of Pandit's translation.Let us read that too.page 207,Vol1,Aurel Stein's translation. "Thus this ruler,who possessed but little character,had whatever was of value at Parihaspura,carried off in order to raise the fame of his city" Two inferences can be drawn after reading the above verse. 1.Kalhana considers the king as bereft of any character. 2.He took away things from Parihaspura to raise the fame of his city. In order to understand whether this was an act of destroying Viharas alone,we need to know which buildings existed at Parihaspura in the first place.Was Parihaspura a city of Buddhist Viharas alone? Was Parihaspura a city where Buddhist Viharas outnumbered Hindu temples?Did Shankaravarman destroy Parihaspura?Are there any direct/indirect references in the verse mentioned above which would indicate Shankarvarman destroying Viharas? All these questions need to be answered before finding out whether Sankarvarman destroyed any Viharas at all or if he did so how many to be precise and which ones.So let us go back to Rajatarangi and read Taranaga 4,verses 194-209,Vol 1 page142-143 of Aurel Stein's translation. Parihaspura drew its name from Parihaskesava(Lord Vishnu) the image of who was the first installation at Parihaspura.If one reads through all the verses that I have referred to above it would not be hard to know that except for two images of Buddha(including the famous Brhdbuddha image) all other installations were those of Hindu gods and goddesses mainly Vishnu. So Shudda's derivation (from verse 161 of Taranga 5)that stealing of material of any worth from Parihaspura is equal to destruction of Viharas holds no water.If at all he did destroy Parihaspura,Kalhana would have mentioned this in great detail for Parihaspura was no pushover as a city.It was built by the tallest Kashmiri King ever.Kalhana himself describes it as town" that mocked the residence of Indra" .How could a historian of Kalhanas repute have erred in mentioning its destruction at the hands of Shankarvarman and forgiven Samkaravarman for destruction of a city like Parihaspura. Shudda's attempts to communalize Samkarvarman don't seem to work.Let us also note that Kalhana says "Sankarvarman took away anything of value"No way does he write or even gives an indication that Sankarvarman destroyed the city,leave alone Viharas. I request my friend Shudda to come up with more plausible explanations than the one he has given.It is good to read between lines.That is how history should be read but imagining is different from reading between the lines. Let us look at the other verses that Shudda has mentioned about Sankarvarman. I am in total agreement with Shudda that Sankarvarman destroyed temples and like Harsha ,he too had officers who supervised the same.I had in no case argued that Sankarvarman was a just king who did not persecute his subjects neither had I argued that he did not destroy temples.All I had said was Kalhana nowhere mentions that Sankarvarman destroyed Viharas the credible evidence for which, I have already given.That he destroyed temples and collected share of profits from them proves that Sankarvarman was a wicked and a greedy king but that he destroyed Viharas is simply preposterous. No direct or indirect reference is given either by Kalhana or later by Stein which would indicate that he selectively persecuted Buddhists or other sects who were social outcasts. Let us now look at Agam-adambara which Shudda presents as a proof of his argument that non-vedic people were prosecuted by Shankarvarman.I salute this great master of history who outrightly rejects Jonaraja,Shuka,Srivara and Prajabhatta as not being credible historians yet he presents a poet as a source of history.It just goes on to show what ridiculous lengths some of us can sometimes go to prove our point.Agam-adambara is a play and hence not in any way a source of credible historical evidence.While plays,stories,poetry written in a certain era do indicate the social,cultural and other facets of that era we cannot use them as credible historical evidences.We cannot use " Haroun and the Sea of Stories" a thousand years from now as a historical source to understand a particular event of history.In the same manner Agamadambara may provide us an outline of the time of Sankarvarman,but to use it as a source of history would only be a mistake. But since Shudda has read it and wanted to quote from it as a proof of his hard work and knowledge of Sanskrit we may as well look at this also.Ipresent an essay written by Dr.Ved Kumari Ghai,who is considered an authority on Kashmir's Sanskrit Literature has written an essay on "Agamadmabara" in her book titled"Kashmir ka Sanskrit Sahitya ko Yogdhaan"published by J&K Academy of Art,Culture and Languages,Jammu ref page no 30-35 She refers to the third act of the play.This is what she says" p 32 "Teesre Ank main Tantrik Shaiv Sadhak Kankalaketu tatha Shamshanabhuti bhaybheet hain ki Shankarvarman aur uska mantra Jayant,aadveik matavlambiyon ko desh se bahar nikalne par tule hain.Unki yojna yeh hai ki Yogeshwari Kalangi Shika ke madhyam se Maharani Sughanda par prabhav daalkar iss nishkasan ko rukvaya jayen.Tabhi dondi sunayee padti hai ki Sankarshana aur Maharaj Sankarvarman kee Aagya anusaar jagat pravah se chale aa rahe nana agam anuyayi apne apni kriyaen karte huyean rajya main rahe parantu prastut dharmo main vighan daalne wale tap se vimukh papi logon ko raja sankarvarman samapt kar denge.Bahut se sadhu dar kar rajya se bhagne lagte hain.Sankarshan svyam shaiva ashram me jaa kar shaivmata anuyyayeon ki branti door karta hai tatha rajya se bhagte huve logon ko lautane ko vyakti bhejta hai" The above very clearly shows how the kings representative himself stops mendicants belonging in my opinion to Laukilisa or Pashupat Cult , from leaving the country. In the fourth act of the play kings wife Sughanda calls for a congregation of saints of various schools of philosophy and to our surprise even Carvakas join the assembly.In the end of the discussions the chairman Bhatt Sahat concludes by saying the following,in the words of Ved Kumai "Jaise kisi nagar ya mahal main pravesh karne ke ichuk alag alag dwaron se pravesh kar sakte hain usee prakar moksh ke ichhuk sadhak bhi moksh ki praapti ki liye alag alag marg apna sakte hain"ref p 34, Now my dear friend where is the question of selective persecution. Although I have put forth my comments on Adam-agambara I still don't consider this as a historical source though it can be a reflection of the times of Shankarvarman.Poets/playwrights have poetic license and use it liberally.They use Alamkaras and Atishouktis to add spice to their works.Soto use or even suggest using them to verify a certain historical event is committing historical hara-kiri. Here I suggest not admonish Shudda to read Nilamatapurana now that he has already taken a plunge himslef.It is incidentally translated by Ved Kumari only. *Anangpala:Taranga 7,verse 147;*This bugger was not a Kashmiri , nor a king or a king who ruled Kashmir. That he was related to King Ananata was his only connection to Kashmir.It is like a nephew of Rahul Gandhi coming from Italy and then doing something which is out of sync with our culture.Can I take this an example of Rahul Gandhi being a non-conformist or less-Indian or something of that sort. Giving examples of Prince of Kabul for proving Hindu Iconoclasm in Kashmir shows that Shudda had to work really hard to find examples to justify his argument. Summary:Kalhana records Kashmir's history for a total of 3339 years.Thereare 147 kings who find mention in Rajatarangni.Out of these our learned friend (after a lot of hard work and digging,even muck raking)could find only seven kings (as per his analysis) who he believes to have committed acts of Iconoclasm and persecution.He does not go into the motives for the same except in case of Harsha where he defends his citadel that Harsha wasn't really so-much under Islamic influence to have committed acts of iconoclasm against Hindu and Buddhist icons as Muslim rulers later did. Let us assume(playing Shudda's advocate) all seven of the kings including Anangpala(an Afghan prince) did commit acts of iconoclasm wouldn't it be more of an exception/aberration rather than a rule.Although I have conclusively proved on the basis of written evidence that not more than 4 kings in an entire span of 3339 years have resorted to such acts.This is not to say that Hindu kings were any better than Muslim kings in terms of governance/administration ,justice delivery system or persecution of their subjects.Not even one Pre-Islamic king has been found to have resorted to selective persecution on the basis of faith. Now compare this with the kings in the Islamic period of approximately 450 years one can count on ones fingers the kings (Zainul-abidin,Akbar,Hassan Shah,Jehangir,Shah-Jehan)who did not resort to large scale persecution on the basis of religion & iconoclasm.That Shia's or Sunnies also subjugated each other is but a proof of religious intolerance within Islam's different sub-sects.A detailed account of the same has already been provided in the earlier chapter titled"Motives Behind Iconoclasm-The Muslim Kings".More evidence shall be shared in the next chapter where we will discuss Jia Lal Kilam and how Shudda uses his book. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:17:27 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:17:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-V Message-ID: <13df7c120712251947w357eb75dk31382b98511dd7fe@mail.gmail.com> JIA LAL KILAM –WHAT SHUDDA REFERS TO AND WHAT HE DOESN'T. I had given a certain reference to this book in my previous posting.Irequested Shudda to read this book so that he could know how Birabar Dhar as a representative of Kashmiris (both Hindus as well as Muslims) had gone to Sikhs to seek their help to free Kashmir from the clutches of the Afghan rulers.When Afghans came to know of this they took his daughter away to Afghanistan and his wife consumed a diamond so as to escape their cruel hawks. Eventually the Afghans were defeated.The Sikhs wanted to bring down the Shah-i-Hamdan mosque(which as you know was built after breaking a Kali temple)but Birbar Dhar requested them not to do so.This I gave as an example of how a Kashmiri Pandit tried to save his nation(Kashmir) from the clutches of the ruthless Afghan kings.This also is an example of the religious tolerance shown by Pandits who despite being brutally subjugated by Afghan kings did not resort to religious bigotry despite the fact that they knew that the mosque was a built on a Hindu Temple. This was to make a point that unless Kashmiris acknowledge the role of all those (irrespective of their religion) who fought for its sovereignty and freedom the minorities would never feel or be a part of that movement. Jia Lal Kilam's book"A History of Kashmiri Pandits" is his understanding of history of a community of people who are today referred to as Kashmiri Pandits.Our friend Shuuda gives three quotes from this book.He begins by saying," Pandit Jia Lal Kilam's 'A History of Kashmiri Pandits' Even Pandit Jia Lal Kilam, who Rashneek Kher refers to approvingly, does not offer a substantively different conclusion from what I am saying. I offer below a set of 3 quotes from his book. (edited by Advaitavadini Kaul)" In Shudda's opinion Jia Lal Kilam and he are more or less saying the same thing.He gives 3 qoutes wherein he tries to prove that subjugation of Pandits/Brahmans had taken place far before Islam came to Kashmir.OK Taken Sir.Does that mean it is thus right to keep continuing that subjugation or persecution. Well that being true I am giving below from the same book references (not 3 but almost 50) to show the kind of atrocities which were inflicted by most Muslim rulers (with a few exceptions) on the non-Muslims.This is not to say that Muslim people participated in these orgies of death and destruction.Even among the mayhem that was let loose by these cruel kings on their subjects especially non-muslims there are instances when Hindus supported Muslims and vice-versa.Please be kind to read the following references from the Jia Lal Kilam's "A History of Kashmiri Pandits"This shall clearly explain how religious persecution and iconoclasm was directed towards non-Muslims.Examples from pre-Islamic era will look like minor skirmishes when one reads through these references. JLK:Jia Lal Kilam 1. pp 24-25,JLK,cross ref:Pir Hassan Shah,Vol1,p 495 Zul-chu ordered a massacre.Thousands were killed,more were sold as slaves to Tartar merchants…………….Zul-chu or Durl-chu took about 50,000 brahmans with him as slaves. 2.pp 30---,JLK, The king in order to break the upheaval amongst the Hindus, turned his attention towards their temples which must have provided a meeting place for them.Hassan the Kashmiri historian says that almost all the temples in Srinagar including the one at Bijbehara were greatly damaged. 3.p 30,JLK The methods adopted by Sikander in this behalf may well be given in the words of Hassan.After having described the great homage paid by Sikander to Mir Muhammad Hamdani,at whose bidding he constructed a khankah,known as Khankaha-i-Maula,on the site of an old temple called Kali Shri,Hassan says *"this country possessed from the times of Hindu Rajas many temples which were like the wonders of the world.Their workmanship was so fine and delicate that one found himself bewildered at their sight.Sikander goaded by feelings of bigotry destroyed them and leveled them with the earth and with their material built many mosques and khankahs.In the first instance he turned his attention towards the Martand temple built by Rama Deva on Mattan Karewa.For one full year he tried to demolish it but failed.At last in sheer dismay he dug out stones from its base and having stored enough wood in their place set fire to it.The gold gilt paintings on its walls were totally destroyed and the walls surrounding its premises were demolished.Its ruins even now strike wonder in men'd minds.At Bijbehara three hundered temples including the famous Vijeyshwara temple which was partially damaged by Shahab-ud-din were destroyed and with the material of the latter a mosque was built on its site a khankah which is even now known as Vijayeshwar mosque"* 4.p 31-32,JLK,cross reference Pir Hassan Shah,Vol 1,p 180 Gruesome conversion of Hindus,their conversion,burning of six maunds of sacred thread,see how many brahmans embraced death rather than convert.Booksthrown into Dal. 5.p 33,JLK, cross reference JC Dutt pp 65-66,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II p 186 6.p 34,JLK,cross reference Sufi,G.M.D Kashir Vol 1,p 89 7.p 36.JLK,cross reference Dutt,JC pp 67-68 8.p 49JLK, "During Haider Shah's reign Pandits suffered immensely" 9.p 50,JLK,cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol 2,p 20 10.p 50,JLK,cross reference ,Dutt JC,p 188 11.p 50,JLK,cross reference ,Dutt JC,pp 195,196. 12.p 57,JLK,cross reference ,Dutt JC,p 261. 13.p 62,JLK, cross reference ,pandits being targeted 14.p 62,JLK, cross reference ,Fauq,History of Kashmir 15.p 62,JLK, cross reference ,Fauq,History of Kashmir 16.p 65,JLK,cross refernce,Dutt,JC,p 348 17.p 66,JLK, cross reference,Dutt JC,p 353-54 18.p 67,JLK,cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah Vol II,pp 273-74 19.p 69,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II p 332 20.pp 89-90,JLK cross reference,Fauq,History of Kashmir,p 91. 21.p –90-91,JLK,Muhatta Khan's looting,killing and maiming of Hindus,Burning of Houses and other atrocities…. cross reference…Fauq ,History of Kashmir 22.p92,JLK, cross reference,Pahalwan Ananad Ram,History of Kashmir 23.p 109,JLK, a popular verse describing the condition 24.p 123,JLK, cross reference,Fauq,History of Kashmir 25.p 125,JLK, cross reference,Fauq ,History of Kashmir 26.p 125,JLK, cross reference,Anand Ram Pahalwan,History of Kashmir 27.p 126,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol-II p 669 28.p 126,JLK,cross reference,Kachru Birbar,History of Kashmir 29.p 131,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah, Vol II,p 673 30.p 131,JLK, cross reference,Pahalwan Ananad Ram,History of Kashmir 31.p 134,JLK,read about Haji Karim Dad and his atrocities on Pandits. 32.p 135,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II p 684 33.p 135,JLK,a supplement to Narayan Kaul's History of Kashmir by Anand Ram Pahalwan. 34.p 135,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah Vol II p 684. 35.p 141,JLK, cross reference,Fauq,History of Kashmir. 36.p 142,JLK, Azad Khan's appetite for Pandit blood. 37.p 149,JLK, cross reference ,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 696. 38.p 153,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 701. 39.p 154,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,pp 699,701 40.p 154,JLK, cross reference,Kachru Birbar, A History of Kashmir 41.p 154,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II p 701, 42.p 154,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II p 701. 43.p 155,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 701. 44.p 155,JLK, cross reference,Fauq,History of Kashmir, also Kachru Birbar,A History of Kashmir. 45.p 166,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 732. 46.p 166,JLK, cross reference, Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 732. 47.p 173,JLK, cross reference ,Fauq,History of Kashmir 48.174,JLK, cross reference ,Tarikh-1-Awam-i-Kashmir. 49,p 177,JLK, cross reference, Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 748 These references stated above should serve as an eye opener to people like Shudda who try and compare Iconoclasm and Religious Persecution in pre-Islamic era to that of Islamic era. I have never stated that the Kashmiri Pandit is timeless victim but at the same time can any one refute the evidences (mostly by Muslim Historians) which stand as a testimony to how barbaric foreign rulers(the progeny of whom today seek independence in Kashmir) resorted to brutalities against the native populace of Kashmir.How they left no stone un-turned to convert all of us to the only "true religion".In all this I pay glorious tributes to kings like Zainaul abidin,Akbar and Shah-Jehan who ruled Kashmir without bias. Conclusion: While I agree with Shudda that Islam does not alone have a monopoly of religious intolerance,in case of Kashmir most of the Muslim rulers were bigots,extremely intolerant and conversion or subjugation topped their agenda.We cannot but miss the fact that in pre-Islamic Kashmir (for which we have written History) of around 3500 years we have 4 instances,OK 7 instances of iconoclasm(to keep Shudda happy) and none of religious persecution at the hands of kings(Hindus,Hunas,Buddhists,Nagas,Kushans) while as in the 450 odd years of Islamic rule we have more than 100 such instances( most recorded by a sizeable number of foreign Muslim Historians with pride).I alone have have given you 50 from just Jia Lal Kilam's book and many more in the second chapter. So matter how hard Shudda tries he cannot refute truth, that too,when the odds of historical evidence are heavily stacked against what he is trying to prove. I do have word about Shudda's arrogance about his scholarship on Kashmir (the bonafides of which have been unproven here).Even in victory be humble my dear friend.I admire you as a scholar but to think that everyone else is half baked just because they cannot find the time to sit and take out references is overconfidence falling over.Here I have shown that we have what it takes to take on self-styled authorities on Kashmir like you and your ilk.And please understand you will never and I dare to use the word never know as much about Kashmir as any Kashmiri would not because of your scholarship but because when you are born in a certain land you learn so many things unwittingly.There are so many phrases and idioms in the language that tell us of our past,the bedtime stories are a world of knowledge which no book of history can suffice for.The vakhs and shrukhs that ordinary people on the street quote tell us about the socio-cultural aspect of the age when that vakh/shrukh was written.When for instance Gulzar Ganai sings Shams Faqir's couplets on Lal Ded ,in just one couplet sometimes he covers relationship between Nun Rishi,Shah-i-Hamdan and Lalla.No matter how hard a scholar tries he will never know or understand more than a son of the soil.So please stop playing an authortity on Kashmir's History and Past.Iknow of so many Marxists who write about Kashmir without really knowing even the basics.Now that you have read Rajatarangi you have just joined the pre-school.Be born again, in Kashmir to know it. When a Kashmiri Muslim writes or pens down something even if I am in disagreement with him/her I really feel that yes he/she may have a pain of losing someone,or a house or a relative who's missing.No matter how exaggerated his presentation may sometimes be his emotions still deserve and command our respect and empathy.A Kashmiri Muslim is a sufferer like his Pandit brethren and needs to be heard for his pain lives in us but when people who have nothing at stake take positions about which they have little or no idea it irks me no end.They simply feed their own souls by thinking they are playing the under-dog's advocate. As for your sermonizing as what we should to please try to practice what you preach. Never under-estimate your adversaries, my friend.This couplet from one of my favourite Urdu poets' Allama Iqbal shall subtly convey the message to you as well as Pawan Durani "Nau med na ho in se ai rahbar-e-farzana,Kam kosh to hai lekin,be zauq nahe rahi" Be not despaired of these,limousine liberals oh my friend Pawan Durani,poor in means,we maybe,but aren't poor in passion and zest. So Shudda,In case you wish to engage in another scholastic discussion on Kashmir you are most welcome to do so. Merry Chrsitmas! Rashneek Kher -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From vrjogi at hotmail.com Wed Dec 26 10:52:15 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:22:15 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712252048sc6329b1o2dcc866b6a174af3@mail.gmail.com> References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712252048sc6329b1o2dcc866b6a174af3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: oishik, i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level. vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 11:13:53 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:13:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-II Message-ID: <13df7c120712252143v16d039f1p7aaaa2919099d1e1@mail.gmail.com> MOTIVES BEHIND ICONOCLASM-THE MUSLIM KINGS Shudda observes *It is no one's case, least of all mine, to state that iconoclasm by* *Muslim Kings in the sultanate period in **Kashmir** did not occur. It did,* *and my contention is that it is incorrect and biased to say that* *iconoclasm occurred only at the behest of Muslim rulers in **Kashmir**.* May I ask Shudda to show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm happened only in the times of Muslim Rulers.Can he be kind to show me that posting where I have said so.As far as I remember I haven't anywhere mentioned that it was Muslim Rulers alone who were Iconoclasts.I would still be ready to be corrected if I said so anywhere. What I however do re-affirm that while a miniscule percentage of Hindu,Hun(like Mihirkula),Buddhists (like Jaluka) rulers did destroy temples and some destroyed Buddhist Viharas too(of course not Shankarvarman)the reasons for the same were not religious expansion or bigotry.Unlike Muslim kings they did not think that they have a holy aim of converting Darul-Harb to Darul-Islam.The aim was not to subjugate or make people change their religion or faith but anything else.Most of the Muslim rulers destroyed temples thinking that they were doing a righteous act and were promoting Shariah by eliminating infidels(Kafir's).Many thought that they were emulating the Prophet(SAW) little realizing the difference that what Prophet Mohammed (PBH) had done while destroying the idols at Kabba(a pagan place of worship then and a mosque now) was destroying idolatory and not idols.Iconoclasm in Kashmir was endorsed by the Amirs of the day(whether general Muslims supported it or not can be a matter of debate much like whether majority Hindus supported or condemned the barbaric destruction of Babri Mosque or whether Iconoclasm, in present day Kashmir has the mandate of the Muslims of the Valley or not).There are examples galore to prove this point.In order to put this in perspective I am giving some references. *From Bahristan-i-Shahi* * "Sultan Shihabu'd-Din addressed himself to such works as would help him get peace in the world hereafter. He arranged a tomb and a burial place for himself to be used after his death. Towards the fag end of his life, he was infused with a zeal for demolishing idol-houses and destroying the temples and idols of the infidels. He destroyed the massive temple at Beejeh Belareh [31] (Bijbehara). He had designs to destroy all the temples and put an end to the entire community of the infidels.[32] " "Again it needs to be recorded that for some of the time which the holy Amir spent in **Kashmir** he lived in a sarai at 'Alau'd-Din Pora. At the site where his khanqah was built, there existed a small temple which was demolished and converted into an estrade on which he offered namaz (prayer) five times a day and recited portions of the Qur'an morning and evening. Sultan Qutbu'd-Din occasionally attended these congregational prayers." " [It may be recorded] that the temples of idol-worshippers, which had been destroyed and razed to the ground by the religious-minded and justice-loving Sultan Sikandar- God bless his grave and bless him-had been rebuilt and rehabilitated by Zainu'l 'Abidin. He had permitted idolators and polytheists to revive the practices of infidelity and they had propagated heresy (kufr) and false religion (din-i batil). With the support of some more kings,[96] the infidels had flourished day after day. But with the support and authority of Malik Musa Raina, Amir Shamsu'd-Din Muhammad undertook a wholesale destruction of all those idol-houses [97] as well as the total ruination of the very foundation of infidelity and disbelief. On the site of every idol-house he destroyed, he ordered the construction of a mosque for offering prayers after the Islamic manner." The idolatory and heresy which had existed prior to his coming to this place were effectively replaced by his preaching and propagation of Islamic laws and practices. He brought honour to all the infidels and heretics (zandiqa) of **Kashmir** by admitting them to the Islamic faith and bestowed upon them many kinds of rewards and benefactions. It is publicly known as well as emphatically related that during his life-time, with the virtuous efforts and elaborate arrangements made by the fortunate Malik Musa Raina, twenty-four thousand families of staunch infidels and stubborn heretics were ennobled by being converted to the Islamic faith. [99] It is difficult to compute the number of people who had hitherto indulged in corrupt practices of a wrong (false) faith and dissent and were put on the right track under the proper guidance of Mir Shamsu'd-Din 'Iraqi .[99] * *In fact the transmitter of (God's) grace (Mir Shams 'Iraqi) conferred favours upon the righteous Malik Musa Raina and gave him blessings which enabled him to fulfill that cherished task. Indeed, fortunate is one who has been able to become the recipient of such special consideration at the hands of a highly venerable and elderly person like him (Amir Shamsu'd-Din). After Sultan Sikandar-God's peace be upon him-no one among the Muslims who wielded authority over this country rendered as much service to Islam by its propagation and advancement as Malik Musa Raina did. Nobody was able to make as organized an effort as he did towards the advancement and furtherence of the Muhammadan religion. * Please look at how the kings viewed their acts.One thought he would get peace by destroying temples.Sultan Sikander has been defined as religious minded and justice loving by the historians of the day while in no case has Kalhana supported or even condoned breaking of religious places.He heaped scorn on kings who resorted to this. Now that's the difference. While Muslim Kings, their Amirs and even most Muslim Historians thought that the King was indulging in act of religious righteousness, kings belonging to other faiths had no such grandiose megalomania of reaching heaven (where houris would await them) by resorting to such acts. It makes an important reading into the mindset of the Muslim rulers.They clearly saw a holy purpose of converting "people of false faiths" like Shudda and me to the only "true religion".In their understanding of Islam they were doing great acts and their Amirs and most Historians of that period(especially the foreign historians who came with them ) supported this sickness unlike Kalhana who outrightly condemned these acts. Read the Last line of my reference from the Bharistan-i-Shahi *Nobody was able to make as organized an effort as he did towards the advancement and furtherence of the Muhammadan religion. * Here we are.The purpose is clear "Advancement and Furtherance of the Mohammedan Religion". *Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami* * * *For details of forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam and their massacre in case they refused to be converted, see Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami; pp. 178-80. One significant detail is that three kharwars (one kharwar is approximately equal to eighty kilograms) of Hindu ceremonial thread (zunnar) were burnt by Sultan Sikandar. (Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami, Pir Ghulam Hasan, Vol II, RPD,* Srinagar 1954.)* * * *Other Sources for Sikander Butshikan alone* *This is what historians (mostly Muslims) have to say. * *"He [Sikandar] prohibited all types of frugal games. Nobody dared to commit acts which were prohibited by the Sharia. The Sultăn was constantly busy in annihilating the infidels and destroyed most of the temples..." (Haidar Malik Chădurăh: Tărîkh-i-Kashmîr; edited and translated into English by Razia Bano, Delhi, 1991, p. 55.) * *"[He] strove to destroy the idols and temples of the infidels. He got demolished the famous **temple** of **Mahădeva** at Bahrăre. The temple was dug out of its foundation and the hole (that remained) reached the water table. Another temple at Jagdar was also demolished… Răjă Alamădat had got a big temple constructed at Sinpur. (...) The temple was destroyed [by Sikandar]." (Khwăjah Nizămu'd- Dîn Ahmad bin Muhammad Muqîm al-Harbî: Tabqăt-i-Akbarî translated by B. De, Calcutta, 1973)* * "Sikander burnt all books the same way as fire burns hay". "All the scintillating works faced destruction in the same manner that lotus flowers face with the onset of frosty winter." (Srivara, Zaina Ra-jtarangini). This I am giving more for its poetic value rather than what it says.* Also please do pay attention to the following *"At the behest of Shams Iraqi, Musa Raina had ordered 1500 to 2000 infidels to be brought to his door-steps every day by his followers. They would remove their sacred threads, administer Kalima to them, circumcise them and thrust lumps of beef into their mouths,'' mentions Tohfatul Ahbab.* *Role of so-called Sufis*: While no one can deny the fact that Kashmir was greatly influenced by Sufism and has produced some great Sufi saints and mystic poets(both Hindus and Muslims),we must stay clear of attaching a Sufi tag to every Muslim Godman.On one hand we have the great Sufi Tradition of Nund Rishi,Shams Faqir,Ahmed batwario,Rahim Saab,Swoch Kral,Prakesh Ram Kurigami,Govind Kaul,Ahmed Dar, on the other we have self styled god-men like Bul Bul Shah and Syed Ali Hamdani on whom this label of Sufi is stuck to make them more palatable to the larger masses.Let us understand this in the context of Shudda's assertions. Shudda says *It is necessary to remember that **Kashmir** is a part of **South Asia** where the rise of Islam did not accompany a military invasion, but occurred largely due to the example set by missionaries and religious divines.* * * My comments Syed Ali Hamdani or Shah-I Hamdan as he is popularly called by Kashmiri Muslims is widely regarded as the man responsible for conversion of Kashmiris to Islam.Shudda has agreed in our previous discussions on this very forum that the Shah-i-Hamadan mosque was built after demolishing a Kali temple(and there are enough historical records to prove that, apart from the fact that to this day Pandits perform prayers alongside the converted structure).Now that itself should have restrained a scholar of Shudda's repute to make the statement that he has made above. That not-withstanding I would like to inform the forum that before Shah-i-Hamadan left Kashmir he ordered the king to impose the following sanctions on Non-Muslims.I am enumerating them for your reading please. 1) The Hindus will not construct any new temples under the rule of Muslims. 2) They will not repair old temples fallen into ruins. 3) They will respect Muslims. 4) They will not dress like Muslims. 5) They will not ride a horse with saddle & bridle 6) They will not put on a ring. 7) They will not carry swords or bows & arrows. 8) They will not adopt Muslim names 9) They will not harbour spies or act as spies 10) If any relation of their's wants to embrace Islam, they will not oppose it. 11) If a Muslim comes to attend a Hindu meeting he will be respectfully received. 12) They will receive Muslim travelers into their houses & provide them hospitality. 13) They will not prevent Muslim travelers from staying in their temples & shrines. 14) They will not mourn their dead loudly. 15) They will not buy Muslim slaves. 16) They will not build houses in neighbourhood of Muslims. 17) They will not sell intoxicating drinks. 18) They will not carry their dead near the grave-yards of Muslims. 19) They will not openly practice their customs & usages among Muslims. 20) They will not give up their traditional dress so that they can be distinguished from Muslims. *In the end the fiat in the form of an advice dictated if any Hindu dares to flout any of conditions, he should be first looted and then possession of his body is halal(Zakhiratul- Muluk).* (Source:Dr.Qayoom Rafiquee's doctoral thesis titled"Sufism in Kashmir") In case this is not enough proof for anybody's flight of fancy which makes him believe that Islam spread peacefully here are some examples from the same thesis.If this isn't persecution in the name of religion then I wonder what is. Writes Dr. Qayoom Rafiquee, "Mir Mohammad was not ready to give the status of Zimmis to the Hindus of Kashmir and treated them as kafirs who were not obedient to Islam, but were at war with it". Sufism in Kashmir, P-101 Again to quote Rafiquee, 'the medieval Muslim sources inform us emphatically that infidelity was uprooted from Kashmir through the influence of Mir Mohammad'. Sufism in Kashmir 101. *And sadly some of us have the cheek to say Islam in **Kashmir** spread through divinity and personal example of missionaries.* This should put to rest any imaginative thought processes of Islam spreading in Kashmir through "divine incarnation of Dervishes and examples set by missionaries".If someone still wants to stick to his point then I hope the same divinity that dawned on our forefathers in Kashmir dawns on him too. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From vrjogi at hotmail.com Wed Dec 26 11:19:31 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:49:31 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <00db01c8470a$f3396890$6602a8c0@taraprakash> References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00db01c8470a$f3396890$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: what is meant by 'your beloved' country? don't you stay in this country? is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > _________________________________________________________________> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 11:30:26 2007 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 22:00:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Oishik, Who you are I do not know.... But the way you have written to Vedavati is intolerable... And since you have used your words, now you have hear our words... and mind it, see our decency in even being vulgar... Read my reply... Let me tell you what Hinduism means - 1. we consider every women as mother, sister or daughter (other than our wife)... Hence we consider Muslims women equivalent to our mother... Thus, when you are abusing us, you must understand that your abuse is bouncing back to your own mother, sister or daughter... as that is the relation we own with them all... 2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you think these are the work of terrorist alone... 3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill them... God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a humanity... I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... I am writing purely because this is happening... And let Muslims accept that if Gujarat riot has happened, where both Hindus and Muslims died... there are these things that are continously happening.... And please please, do not use abuses agains our sisters... This is provoking and has provoked me to tell all these... Best regards, ----- Original Message ---- From: Vedavati Jogi To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election oishik, i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level. vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From sabirhaque at yahoo.co.in Wed Dec 26 11:34:17 2007 From: sabirhaque at yahoo.co.in (Sabir Haque) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 06:04:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] H sentiments up your A In-Reply-To: <466125.95143.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <293112.85169.qm@web8608.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear all, I being a muslim brother, pardon me, if not considered a brother. But a certain amount of similar emotions did arise reading that mail of Vedavati, although this will be looked at differently as me being a muslim brother. But I agree with Fatima, ignoring them is the best measure. "You don't even deserve my hatred, not to mention my attention" regards, Sabir Haque "S.Fatima" wrote: Dear Oishik and others (maybe not Zainab) I am sorry, but it seems all that the Psecularists are left to do now is to jerk their knees to show their frustration. Have we fallen so low after the defeat that we can't even think rationally. Tell me frankly, is this the only way left to make a dialogue. Or are we not interested in a dialogue? Frankly, I am not surprised at Modi's victory. To me, life is not so black and white so as to see it through only an election defeat or victory. Do you think some miracles would happen to turn Gujarat into a peace-utopia had the congress come to power? Its going to take ages to turn this country into a sensible place to live in. Let us first make ourselves a little more sensible. S.F. > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR > wrote: > > Dear Vedavati: > > > > Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... > take that from a Hindu > > brother of yours who had done that a long long > time back... trust me it > > feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of > it... you'll keep doing it > > over and over again... shoving up the Hindu > bullshit I mean... > > > > May be that should be your new year resolution... > > > > Good luck... > > > > Oishik > > > > P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the > purposeful use of a > > certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is > indecent or not)... I > > know we need to confront radicalism with reason... > and not drivel... but I > > hope to be excused this time... for the sake of > the holiday season! > _________________________________________ Do you get hundreds of mails everyday? Delete none. Go to http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_mail_9/*https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: Sabir Haque New Media Artist blog: www.oddexistenz.blogspot.com photo 1: www.flickr.com/photos/oddexistenz photo 2: www.picasaweb.google.com/oddexistenz video: www.youtube.com/user/oddexistenz --------------------------------- Do you get hundreds of mails everyday? Delete none. Keep them all. From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 12:22:56 2007 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 22:52:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Idol worship Message-ID: <543470.13635.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> For those who have advocated Idolatory as abuse to God - let them show One religion and one society in the world who do not worship Idols and are peaceful... Quick questions: 1. What are words describing Allah? Only literates can read those words. Blind can hear those words. Blind and Deaf can neither read nor hear those words - what about those Muslims. 2. Do you believe that a picture (image) is worth more than 1000 words? What would you prefer to worship - words or images. Which is more impacting - picture or words? These questions might seem to be simple, but they are not. let me put some analysis for you... 1. Hindus worship Ideals and not Idols. Ask the most idiot of all Hindus, would the stone move or talk for you and he will so 'No'. But if you ask the same Hindu, what will your stone do if I break it, and he will reply what will your Allah or Christ do it, if I abuse him. The answers are same on both side, the effect is same. But one question is sure to think in depth - why do Hindus worship Idols then when all of them knows that it cannot move or talk? And answer is so simple - Can Allah or Christ move or talk? You find Allah and Christ in your words, we find our God in Idols. How beautiful your words are you know, but we know our Idols are the most beautiful creations of some hands. 2. Hindus worshipping Idols while knowing that it will not move or talk signifies that Hindus are worshipping the Immaterial in relation to Material (Both of which constitutes the world). But Islam or Christian think that God is an entity that sits somewhere in 7th world and watches helplessly on us. 3. Names like Allah or Christ signifies the identity of God as an entity. 4. God as One is also in Hinduism, but not illogical to say that he is material bounded by smallest finite number 'One'. Hindus believe that all manifestations and energies of manifestations when summed up results in that 'One' which has formed everything and which is the formation too. Thus the 'One' is explained. 5. Human minds are materialistic. Senses requires material to sense and understand things. Hence, to understand and feel God, words, images, emotions, everthing in Hinduism has a place. 6. Love, respect and regard is the pillars of all Hindu worship (Unlike all other religions, where they worship religion and force the same on others). 7. Deities in Hindus are natural powers - they were not humans. They are used as metaphors to explain the natural science. Thus, story of Brahma, Vishnu and others in Quran doesn't mean that they had physical existence - they are the icons to relate to natural powers. For example, Jyotir Lingam means Shiv - The God of Light - Jyoti meaning light and Lingam in sanskrit meaning Symbol. Thus shiva is a symbol of light, light being the highest form of energy - and hence Shiva is called as Mahadeva. 8. Idol worhship is a social arrangement which absorbs all level of thinking to become peaceful in nature. It is because, Hindus seem to be worshipping Idols, but actually they do not worship Idols - they worship Ideals. Hence, when one worships Lord Rama, he doesn't worship Rama as God, he worships the best of God in Rama. Islam says God is most benevolent, the most kind... but fails to categorize this most and ends up in saying that he is an entity. Hinduism goes far ahead from this to say that God is within us too, with all his qualities - it is up to us to realize the best of him - humans fail to do, but the most powerful of all natural creations does this - Lord Rama and Krishna did this - and hence the best of God is what is worshipped. Nothing in Hinduism is illogical. Everything has a scientific and natural research of thousands of years behind it. It is like, we do not need to know how to build a computer and hence we are simply taught the softwares. So, a Hindus need not know what is Saraswati in natural form, but are taught to relate her with the ability to study - the ability being the power of nature that helps in building knowledge. And hence, Hindus worship Saraswati and making a beautiful idol is to ensure that everyone has the love and respect towards 'Vidya'. How will Muslims and Christians understand this - when their whole social arrangement is to kill. A child grows with a goat with love and is then taught to kill it barbarously with his hand. Anyone going against is declared Kafir and anything outside the hardlined boundary is thought as impure. If Jesus became God by forgiving his enemies, let the world start worshipping 1 billion Jesus - for Hindus have been forgiving even greater barbarism from past 1000 years. Jai Hind, ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From onlysocio at yahoo.co.in Wed Dec 26 12:38:09 2007 From: onlysocio at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:08:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik and Vedavati: a hindu bhangra video in the interest of the nation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <980985.94758.qm@web8408.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Vedavati, Don't talk to Oishik, he's a bad boy; bad and a mad boy. After a lot of brain cracking I've got a hindu music video for u[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2znSg9MDb8] ( your eyes and ears only though of course I cannot stop other 'secular' or as u spell "psudo" secular readers from enjoying the same); however forgive an illicit insertion here --the video and its two major characters with their spectral presence allowed me to imagine --they are you and Oishik dancing together in the interest of the nation. [Plz Use the above URL, if it fails, use search in youtube for Jogiya by Romey Gill.] yours in admiration arnab Vedavati Jogi wrote: oishik, i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level. vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: --OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Messenger blocked? Want to chat? Here is the solution. From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Wed Dec 26 12:47:19 2007 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:17:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik and Vedavati : a syncretic bhangra video in the interest of the nation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <467177.68903.qm@web8515.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Vedavati, Don't talk to Oishik, he's a bad boy; bad and a mad boy. After a lot of brain cracking I've got a hindu music video for u[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2znSg9MDb8] ( your eyes and ears only though of course I cannot stop other 'secular' or as u spell "psudo" secular readers from enjoying the same); however forgive an illicit insertion here --the video and its two major characters with their spectral presence allowed me to imagine --they are you and Oishik dancing together in the interest of the nation. [Plz Use the above URL, if it fails, use search in youtube for Jogiya by Romey Gill.] yours in admiration arnab Vedavati Jogi wrote: oishik, i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level. vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.com OISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season! Messenger blocked? Want to chat? Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 14:18:49 2007 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 00:48:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and girls around in the name freedom. 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, separating people from people. 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a ver fast pace 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare the nation as Islamic state 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands through local Muslims 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated children of careless parents. 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both area. 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work for India 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our own country. 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to achieve this nation as a group. There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. Jai Hind, ----- Original Message ---- From: Vedavati Jogi To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election what is meant by 'your beloved' country? don't you stay in this country? is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > _________________________________________________________________> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 14:21:39 2007 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 00:51:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu saint attacked by Christians Message-ID: <789928.90104.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://69.36.167.209/cgi-bin/dada/mail.cgi/archive/nll/20071226011151/ This is the reality and not what media shows... Open your eyes... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 14:47:19 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 01:17:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <010101c8470b$a07825a0$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <200471.39010.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tara Prakash I already accepted your earlier stated clarification that you do not want to homogenise. I am now trying to make sense of what "exactly" you meant. So let me re-state my enquiries: 1. If all the 'forces' named by you ( so-called pseudo secular forces + soft Hindutva forces + major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces) were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government?????? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. Who therefore does Modi represent?????? 2. If a substantial part of the 65% vote (in the Gujarat election) was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (as per Tara Prakash, whether they won or lost), then wouldnt a logical deduction from Tara Prakash's premise be that those participating voters were "evil" too?????? These are questions. Of course you can say "I said what I said and I do not care what meanings are conveyed or whether anything meaningful is conveyed at all; I said what I said" Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: If this is how you understand the message, let this be the import of my message. I of course do not want to homogenize in any circumstance. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Your words were very clear and did not need any interpretation by me. Maybe it was an unfortunate turn of phrase and words by you. In any case, now, you have clarified that you did not mean that all Hindus are evil. You have again said some interesting things. For one: """""" Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him."""" If all the 'forces' named by you were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. AND you go on to say: """"" I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil.""""" Gujarat had a 65% voter turn-out. That is quite a high percentage for any part of the world. If a substantial part of this 65% vote was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (whether they won or lost), then those participating voters would be "evil" too. So, in the "Gujarat according to Tara Prakash" it was 'mainly' the 'evil' contesting and 'mainly' the 'evil' voting. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Dear Kshmendra. An intriguing interpretation of my message. I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did. I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus. Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected. I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives. It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:03:47 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 02:33:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Idol worship In-Reply-To: <543470.13635.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54160.50135.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Chanchal This Reader List is not meant for the comparative study of religions. My advice and request would be to avoid religious discourses especially of the kind "my religion is better than yours" Religion does influence and interfere into political and sociological matters. That cannot be ignored but any comment/analysis needs to have specificity to a situation/issue. Chanchal, I belong to what is generally known as "Hinduism". Yet, the "Dharmik" precepts that are dear to me and that fascinate me are quite a distance from what "Hinduism" has become. My point is that just as I could find many things to criticise in Islam or amongst Muslims. I could also pick many things to criticise about Hinduism and Hindus. Muslims and Christians are as much a part of India as a Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Jain, Agnostic, Atheist... etc etc. We should look for the affirmatives (as well as negations) that would consolidate each ones contribution to a healthier India. Criticising the word or action of one who seeks to damage India is as much applicable to a Hindu as it is to a Muslim or Christian or any other one. Kshmendra Kaul chanchal malviya wrote: For those who have advocated Idolatory as abuse to God - let them show One religion and one society in the world who do not worship Idols and are peaceful... Quick questions: 1. What are words describing Allah? Only literates can read those words. Blind can hear those words. Blind and Deaf can neither read nor hear those words - what about those Muslims. 2. Do you believe that a picture (image) is worth more than 1000 words? What would you prefer to worship - words or images. Which is more impacting - picture or words? These questions might seem to be simple, but they are not. let me put some analysis for you... 1. Hindus worship Ideals and not Idols. Ask the most idiot of all Hindus, would the stone move or talk for you and he will so 'No'. But if you ask the same Hindu, what will your stone do if I break it, and he will reply what will your Allah or Christ do it, if I abuse him. The answers are same on both side, the effect is same. But one question is sure to think in depth - why do Hindus worship Idols then when all of them knows that it cannot move or talk? And answer is so simple - Can Allah or Christ move or talk? You find Allah and Christ in your words, we find our God in Idols. How beautiful your words are you know, but we know our Idols are the most beautiful creations of some hands. 2. Hindus worshipping Idols while knowing that it will not move or talk signifies that Hindus are worshipping the Immaterial in relation to Material (Both of which constitutes the world). But Islam or Christian think that God is an entity that sits somewhere in 7th world and watches helplessly on us. 3. Names like Allah or Christ signifies the identity of God as an entity. 4. God as One is also in Hinduism, but not illogical to say that he is material bounded by smallest finite number 'One'. Hindus believe that all manifestations and energies of manifestations when summed up results in that 'One' which has formed everything and which is the formation too. Thus the 'One' is explained. 5. Human minds are materialistic. Senses requires material to sense and understand things. Hence, to understand and feel God, words, images, emotions, everthing in Hinduism has a place. 6. Love, respect and regard is the pillars of all Hindu worship (Unlike all other religions, where they worship religion and force the same on others). 7. Deities in Hindus are natural powers - they were not humans. They are used as metaphors to explain the natural science. Thus, story of Brahma, Vishnu and others in Quran doesn't mean that they had physical existence - they are the icons to relate to natural powers. For example, Jyotir Lingam means Shiv - The God of Light - Jyoti meaning light and Lingam in sanskrit meaning Symbol. Thus shiva is a symbol of light, light being the highest form of energy - and hence Shiva is called as Mahadeva. 8. Idol worhship is a social arrangement which absorbs all level of thinking to become peaceful in nature. It is because, Hindus seem to be worshipping Idols, but actually they do not worship Idols - they worship Ideals. Hence, when one worships Lord Rama, he doesn't worship Rama as God, he worships the best of God in Rama. Islam says God is most benevolent, the most kind... but fails to categorize this most and ends up in saying that he is an entity. Hinduism goes far ahead from this to say that God is within us too, with all his qualities - it is up to us to realize the best of him - humans fail to do, but the most powerful of all natural creations does this - Lord Rama and Krishna did this - and hence the best of God is what is worshipped. Nothing in Hinduism is illogical. Everything has a scientific and natural research of thousands of years behind it. It is like, we do not need to know how to build a computer and hence we are simply taught the softwares. So, a Hindus need not know what is Saraswati in natural form, but are taught to relate her with the ability to study - the ability being the power of nature that helps in building knowledge. And hence, Hindus worship Saraswati and making a beautiful idol is to ensure that everyone has the love and respect towards 'Vidya'. How will Muslims and Christians understand this - when their whole social arrangement is to kill. A child grows with a goat with love and is then taught to kill it barbarously with his hand. Anyone going against is declared Kafir and anything outside the hardlined boundary is thought as impure. If Jesus became God by forgiving his enemies, let the world start worshipping 1 billion Jesus - for Hindus have been forgiving even greater barbarism from past 1000 years. Jai Hind, ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 07:41:05 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:11:05 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <031701c848f6$e7c98ec0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> > Even though I feel like agreeing with you, (not completely), I must state > that you are eluding the context. I was replying to someone who reduces > politics, perhaps everything in India, in to Hindu/ Muslim binarity. I was > just suggesting that if being uncomfortable with the country and leaving > it for some other country were related, Hindus are more at fault. I hate > homogenizing, but what if the person you are responding to does not > understand any other language! Unfortunately, you too in your mail used > the political binary opposition between, what can be roughly called, left > and right of the Indian political system. > Well, I don't have to mention the dangers of binary opposition which are > obviously clear to this profound lisst. > But I feel like quoting Kabir and hee is so relevant today and surely will > remain so in the future. > Chalti chakki dekh ke > Diya Kabira roy > Do patan ke bich mein > Sabut bacha na koy. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "TaraPrakash" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:01 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > >> Hi, >> >> Taraprakash, >> be whereevr you are comfortable, but think a moment, with kickbacks >> haunting the leaders, that too comrade leaders from salim group of >> Indonesia,subscription payers as worker comrades leaving for better >> leaders who do not live on their subscriptions, it is time for the >> politburo to be introspect whether they are with idealogy of equity and >> justice as enunciated by Karl marx or have they lost them.Even the fake >> ration cards and ids given to refugees of bangaldesh developed as vote >> banks have ubderstood the game plan of left parties and the fort is >> crumbling as the intellectuals who all along supported the intelligent in >> left are also aghast at the brutal means used to suppress dissent in the >> ranks using cadres for the rape and killing.Left parties which had >> dedicated cadres to the idealogy are today dedicated to politburo goons >> and the very reason the Communist party of India split into CPM, CPI and >> Marxist-leninist parties is well known as the ego clash of leaders to be >> in the loot of subscription of toiling comrade workers. As to vaghela or >> Uma or all those who leave for greener pastures, it is no different in >> left parties also, as the leader is foisted by a bunch of motley crowd >> going by the name of politburo. So, be aware of what your thoughts are >> leading to as the very idealogy is now hijacked by these goons in >> politburo of all the different factions of LEFT. >> Regards. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: TaraPrakash >> Date: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:02 pm >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election >> To: Vedavati Jogi , bawazainab79 at gmail.com, >> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com, reader-list at sarai.net >> >>> Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West >>> Indese, >>> European countries, North American countries, South East Asian >>> countries and >>> so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your >>> beloved >>> country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already >>> abroad at the >>> moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity >>> comes >>> your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion >>> they are? >>> Bharat mata ki jai. >>> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when >>> they were >>> fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che >>> saru che >>> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of >>> the day and >>> Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter >>> of Shiv >>> Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic >>> sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non >>> marathas to leave >>> Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away? >>> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are >>> themselves divided >>> and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I >>> want to >>> join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in >>> to power >>> in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party >>> or Advani >>> who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been >>> dropping hints >>> that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP >>> being >>> voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna >>> secular? The >>> leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports >>> Modi? Vaghela? >>> Mehta? Maya Vati? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Vedavati Jogi" >>> To: ; ; >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election >>> >>> >>> > >>> > my dear zainab, >>> > >>> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good >>> place to live >>> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. >>> > >>> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but >>> they >>> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand >>> their own >>> > mistakes. >>> > >>> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at >>> godhra >>> > station? >>> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims >>> were >>> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- >>> was is >>> > not a magnonimity shown by hindus? >>> > >>> > id you reciprocate? >>> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the >>> place where >>> > babri structure once stood? >>> > >>> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look >>> upon babar >>> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't >>> think any >>> > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. >>> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot >>> compete with >>> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover >>> nobody has >>> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run >>> schools.still you >>> > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't >>> get jobs >>> > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence >>> demand >>> > for reservations..! >>> > >>> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is >>> because of >>> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? >>> > >>> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in >>> india who >>> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced >>> any >>> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this >>> 'false >>> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it >>> if >>> > possible. >>> > >>> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken >>> against >>> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in >>> future also >>> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against >>> hindu >>> > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. >>> why >>> > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for >>> the sake of >>> > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody >>> will dare >>> > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! >>> > >>> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & >>> seculars, instead >>> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not >>> provoked, join >>> > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building. >>> > >>> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to >>> care for >>> > hindu sentiments too. >>> > >>> > vedavati >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: >>> bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: >>> > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat >>> electionCC: >>> > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, >>> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks >>> about '5 >>> > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate >>> > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to >>> take stern >>> > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt >>> muslim >>> > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left >>> after >>> > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and >>> when you >>> > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you >>> are >>> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is >>> your >>> > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment >>> or voice >>> > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who >>> > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the >>> judiciary >>> > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed >>> violences >>> > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that >>> doing so >>> > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful >>> and >>> > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no >>> sentiments, they >>> > are assumed to be aligned. >>> > In peace, >>> > Zainab (gujju ben) >>> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >>> > >>> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a >>> secular country >>> > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise >>> 99% >>> > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared >>> to stay >>> > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their >>> daily >>> > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting >>> 'secularism'. >>> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after >>> 1947. they >>> > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of >>> seats they >>> > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many >>> towering >>> > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, >>> bismilla >>> > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad >>> ali and many >>> > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very >>> very >>> > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about >>> > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme >>> hai' , >>> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote >>> bank >>> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt >>> muslim >>> > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks >>> about '5 >>> > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate >>> > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to >>> take stern >>> > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt >>> muslim >>> > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & >>> likes has >>> > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking >>> temples & >>> > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they >>> create hue & >>> > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a >>> lot about >>> > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais >>> have proved >>> > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it >>> is their >>> > victory! vedavati >>> > >>> > >>> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: >>> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat >>> electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: >>> > vrjogi at hotmail.com >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Hi, >>> > >>> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are >>> facing the >>> > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. >>> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say >>> Hindu, it is >>> > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in >>> it..> So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. >>> in other words, >>> > it is humanity that has won.. >>> > >>> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims >>> gather in big >>> > mass when there is anything related to their religion... >>> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get >>> killed in >>> > Terrorist attacks... >>> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever >>> said a word >>> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... >>> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are >>> Muslims >>> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some >>> roadshow to make >>> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different >>> set of >>> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net >>> that all >>> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever >>> Muslims >>> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not >>> religion.... >>> > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... >>> > >>> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains >>> majority of >>> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know >>> West Bengal >>> > becoming another Kashmir.. >>> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict >>> law to >>> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... >>> > >>> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring >>> Quran as >>> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of >>> same God >>> > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is >>> happening >>> > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in >>> the nation >>> > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what >>> they used >>> > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day >>> Muslim will >>> > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start >>> respecting >>> > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the >>> festivals >>> > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... >>> > >>> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken >>> place, had >>> > Godhra would not have taken place... >>> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what >>> is expected >>> > from their month.... >>> > >>> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is >>> Hindus >>> > win... >>> > >>> > Jai Hind, >>> > >>> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa >>> To: >>> > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; >>> Vedavati >>> > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 >>> 8:34:38 >>> > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks >>> for the >>> > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's >>> victory >>> > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, >>> there are >>> > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave >>> accepted that >>> > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot >>> Hindus.I >>> > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to >>> understand your >>> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you >>> suggesting >>> > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of >>> > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab >>> (confused gujju >>> > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash >>> wrote:> >>> > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. >>> Ask the > >>> > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi >>> "Brahmin ka> >>> > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu >>> terrorist Advani> >>> > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or >>> pseudo >>> > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight >>> in Gujarat >>> > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, >>> Hindus have> >>> > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil >>> loses. > May >>> > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your >>> mouth> >>> > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" >>> < >>> > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; >>> > >>> > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader- >>> list] gujrat >>> > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for >>> > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. >>> and i hope >>> > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't >>> always >>> > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the >>> world that >>> > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > >>> vedavati> >> >>> > >> > >>> _________________________________________________________________> > >>> > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > >>> > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > >>> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an >>> open >>> > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & >>> Collaborations > > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List >>> archive: < >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> >>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >>> discussion >>> > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >>> subscribe: >>> > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe >>> in the >>> > subject header.> To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List >>> archive: >>> > >> list/>_________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>> city.Critiques & >>> > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list- >>> request at sarai.net >>> > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List >>> archive: < >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> > >>> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >>> > >>> > >>> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! >>> > _________________________________________________________________ >>> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in >>> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>> list >>> List archive: >> >> > From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 22:04:13 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?=ED=C7=D3=D1_~_yasir_?=) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:34:13 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] sari reader-list archive in a mess Message-ID: <5af37bb0712290834w2f9cad88r48eab27d42dbe1ca@mail.gmail.com> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-December/date.html best wishes. y From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 22:54:01 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:24:01 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Reversal of Fortune/India's Brahmins Message-ID: The Wall Street Journal December 29, 2007; Page A4 Reversal of Fortune Isolates India's Brahmins By ERIC BELLMAN E-mail: eric.bellman at awsj.com (Tariq Engineer contributed to this article.) CHENNAI, India -- Brahmins, as Hinduism's priestly and scholarly caste, have traditionally occupied a place of privilege in India. Brahmins have been advisers to Maharajas, Mughals and military rulers. Under British rule, they served as administrators, a position they kept after Indian independence in 1947. But in today's India, high-caste privileges are dwindling, and with the government giving extensive preferences to the lower-caste majority, many Brahmins are feeling left out of the economy's rapid expansion. R. Parameswaran has suffered that reversal of fortune. The 29-year-old starts every day with a prayer to the Hindu god Shiva, marking his forehead with red and white powder to let the world know he is a Brahmin. In his home village, his caste's mark brought him respect, but since he moved to Chennai, a sprawling high-tech city in the southern state of Tamil Nadu, in the late 1990s, he has found his status a liability. In Tamil Nadu, nearly 70% of government jobs and public-college slots are reserved for people from lower castes and other historically disadvantaged groups. Although he says he graduated near the top of his high-school class and had strong test scores, Mr. Parameswaran couldn't get into any of the state engineering colleges. His family had to borrow from friends to send him to a second-rate private college. He now teaches English at a small vocational school. On a salary of $100 a month, Mr. Parameswaran can't afford an apartment, so he sleeps in the classroom at night. "I am suffering," says the intense young man, using the exaggerated enunciation of an English teacher. "Unfortunately, I was born as a Brahmin." Although the role of Brahmins has never been synonymous with accumulating wealth, many are affluent enough to educate their children in the better private schools. On average, members of the caste, who make up about 5% of India's population of 1.1 billion, are better educated and better paid than the rest of Indian people. The term Brahmin has come to be used globally to describe those at the top of the heap with an attitude to match, as in Boston Brahmins. Yet close to half of Brahmin households earn less than $100 a month, according to the Center for a Study of Developing Societies, a New Delhi think tank. For these Brahmins, the array of state-mandated preferences for other groups present a high hurdle. The reverse discrimination is rooted in Indian history and politics. For decades, Brahmins were resented for their dominance of the government, economy and culture. Indeed, political parties in Tamil Nadu sprang from anti-Brahmin feelings. "If you see a Brahmin and a snake, kill the Brahmin first" was an old slogan. A national constitution adopted in 1950 reserved more than 20% of government jobs for lower castes. In 1990, an additional 27% were set aside for what were called "other backward castes." Some states set higher quotas, including Tamil Nadu, which reserves 69% of government jobs for lower castes and other needy groups. The ugliest Brahmin bashing in India ended years ago, but Mr. Parameswaran says that in college in the late 1990s, he still faced ridicule as a Brahmin. He says one student tried to break his sacred thread, a simple circle of twine Brahmins wear under their clothes. After college, he had an internship in a state-owned chemical company, but says he was told he wouldn't be hired, as there were openings only for lower-caste applicants. He says he took exams to join national railways, state banks and other government agencies, such as the immigration department, but found most posts closed to all Brahmins except the most brilliant. >From his makeshift home where he sleeps with a blanket on a desk most nights, Mr. Parameswaran still applies for government jobs. He pulls out his latest application form and shows a visitor where he always gets stuck: the three squares where he has to write the abbreviation indicating his caste. "I want government work," he says, shaking the application, "but they have no jobs for Brahmins." Mr. Parameswaran has tried to adapt to the lessening of caste distinctions taking place in many parts of India today, especially in cities. The changes are less in villages such as the one where he grew up some 200 miles away. There, his grandfather, who is 101 years old, still won't wear Western clothes and won't eat outside of his home for fear of mixing with lower castes. Mr. Parameswaran's father has a job with the state telephone company and is more liberal. He dresses in shirts and pants, doesn't mind eating at restaurants and doesn't expect lower-caste neighbors to take off their sandals in his presence. Mr. Parameswaran has had good friends from lower castes all his life, many of whom have used their communities to grab good government jobs, he says. He won't eat meat but has no qualms sharing a meal with people of any caste or creed. His 22-year-old sister, R. Dharmambal, is even more liberal, he says. "She will take non-vegetarian food," he exclaims, using the common Indian term for eating meat. Mr. Parameswaran often visits the sister in the Brahmin enclave of Mylapore. On a recent day there, dozens of shirtless priests in the traditional Brahmin uniform of a white dhoti and partially shaved head were standing around at a Hindu-scriptures school, hoping for work. For as little as 100 rupees, about $2.50, they offered to perform complicated rituals and blessings required when any Hindu has a baby, a wedding or a new home. "My sons can't support me, so I have to survive by performing Hindu rituals," says K. Narayana, an 81-year-old scholar. "If we had been from another community, we would have had better opportunities." Nearby stands the Kapaleeshwara Temple, with towering gates of colorful carvings from Hindu mythology. It is one of the most important places for worship for followers of Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction. The temple used to be surrounded by rows of simple single-story homes, each with its own courtyard and well so the Brahmin families wouldn't have to share water with other castes. Most houses have been replaced by concrete apartment blocks and small stores. At the temple's back gate, Brahmins beg for spare change or look for odd jobs as cooks or even bearers of bodies to funeral pyres, normally a lower-caste pursuit. " I see so many Brahmins begging" in Mylapore, Mr. Parameswaran says. "It's very difficult to see. It makes me totally upset." From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 10:14:39 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:14:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> <6b79f1a70712232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712252044w2856833cib267b92837e84f07@mail.gmail.com> Zainab , I hope you would understand that we are discussing people and not God's. I hope you know when to use the word "Pawan Putra" at right time. Should I react in a similar way , you would not like it. Dont be a bad loser ! Pawan On 12/25/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > Dear Pawan, Did you say 'peaceful' and secure state to Gujaratis? Who are > these Gujaratis? I am certain that the Gujarati Muslims of Gujarat are as > Gujarati as the 'Hindus' that you keep referring to are Gujaratis. Perhaps > you should be a bit specific on who these Gujaratis are? I am sure it must > be a very peaceful time for Gujaratis post March and April 2002, and that > voting under duress is as peaceful as blood pressure and hypertension. > I am also waiting for Modi in Delhi. Perhaps then we can witness a > peaceful repeat of some events of 1983, this time in the name of an Akhand > Gujarat. > Jai bharat, Jai Gujarat, Jai Modi, Jai Pawan putra, > Yours truly, > Zainab (gujju ben) > > > On Dec 24, 2007 10:27 AM, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Modi's victory is a victory of Hindus as almost everyone had started > > categorising Hindus as someone who have terrorised muslims in Gujarat. > > > > Modi not only gave good governance , he laso gave a peaceful and secure > > state to Gujaratis. His victory is victory to all Gujaratis irrespective of > > being Hindus , muslims or Parsis. > > > > The Good governance wins , the respect of majority community wins , the > > confidence and security to minorties wins. The Psuedosecularists lost all. > > > > This time it was Gujarat .... We all are waiting for Modi in > > Delhi....just few months to go. > > > > > > On 12/24/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > > unclear > > > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > > > Hindu > > > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > > > yourself > > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all > > > Hindus are > > > not Hindus. > > > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand > > > your > > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > > that > > > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > > > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > > Cheers, > > > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask > > > the > > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin > > > ka > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > > > Advani > > > > be > > > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > > communal > > > > for > > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > > > have > > > > won, Hindus have > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > > > mouth > > > > next time. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > > To: < reader-list at sarai.net>; > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > > question. > > > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > > > psudo > > > > > seculars! > > > > > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > > showing > > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be > > > formed! > > > > > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/3b1f67e2/attachment.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 10:18:27 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712252048sc6329b1o2dcc866b6a174af3@mail.gmail.com> OISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > Dear Vedavati: > > Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindu > brother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it > feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing it > over and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean... > > May be that should be your new year resolution... > > Good luck... > > Oishik > > P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of a > certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... I > know we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I > hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season! > > On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > Dear Vedavati, > > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu' > > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and > how > > I > > can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks > I > > > > have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask > > my > > Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are > > and > > how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me > henceforth > > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments, > > then > > I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu' > > colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > > can > > support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians, > > Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour > > different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I > may > > > > have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I > will > > do what you have suggested. > > > > As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I > > cannot > > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this > > 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in > > this > > part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. > For > > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that > > happens > > to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their > > place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge > > from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her > > neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her > > statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my > > place > > and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > > or > > India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, > euphoric > > imagination of the city. > > > > It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the > last > > refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'. > > Is > > there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) > 'Muslims' > > to > > go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are > 'condemning' > > > > 'us' to? > > > > Truly, > > Zainab > > P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots > > caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai > > concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for > sure > > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being > built. > > All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan > > 1993 > > for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian > > descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes. > > > > > > On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > my dear zainab, > > > > > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to > > live > > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > > > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their > own > > > mistakes. > > > > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > > station? > > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was > is > > not > > > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > > > > > id you reciprocate? > > > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place > > where > > > babri structure once stood? > > > > > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon > babar > > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think > > > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > > > > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete > > with > > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they > > don't > > > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... > > hence > > > demand for reservations..! > > > > > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > > > > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india > who > > > > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible. > > > > > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future > > also > > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim > > > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. > > > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > > take > > > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > > > > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, > > instead > > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands > > > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > > > > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > > hindu sentiments too. > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530 > > > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' > seats instead > > he > > > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does > not > > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to > take > > > > > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt > > > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and > > when > > > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you > are > > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary > > > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? > > What > > > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in > > the > > > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action > was > > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra > > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in > mass > > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > > in,one > > > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be > aligned. > > > > > In peace, > > > Zainab (gujju ben) > > > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > dear zainab, > > > > > > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only > > because > > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had > > voted > > > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after > > partition. > > > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here > not > > > because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > > > > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. > > > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of > seats > > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. > > > > > > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india > > like > > > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > > pathan, > > > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background > and > > > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties > talked > > > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > > hai' , > > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > > sentiments. > > > > > > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore > gujratis > > > > > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & > common > > > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > > former > > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. > > > > > > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the > > > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > > -congress > > > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like > > > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings > > what > > > about 'kashmiri pundits'? > > > > > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for > > granted. > > > that is why it is their victory! > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800 > > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing > the > > > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it > is > > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > > > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other > > words, > > > it is humanity that has won.. > > > > > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in > > big > > > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > > > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed > in > > > Terrorist attacks... > > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a > > word > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > > > > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are > Muslims > > > > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to > > make > > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that > > all > > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever > Muslims > > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not > religion.... > > THEN > > > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > > > > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority > > of > > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West > Bengal > > > > > becoming another Kashmir.. > > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > > > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > > as > > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same > > God is > > > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through > > > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they > used > > to > > > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start > > > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > the > > > > > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > of > > > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > > > > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > > Godhra would not have taken place... > > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is > > expected > > > from their month.... > > > > > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > > win... > > > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Zainab Bawa > > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com> > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > > unclear > > > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > > > Hindu > > > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > > > yourself > > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all > Hindus > > > > > are > > > not Hindus. > > > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand > > your > > > > > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > that > > > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > > > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > > Cheers, > > > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask > the > > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin > > ka > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > > Advani > > > > be > > > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > > > > > > > for > > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > > > have > > > > won, Hindus have > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > > > mouth > > > > next time. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > > > To: ; > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > > question. > > > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > > > psudo > > > > > seculars! > > > > > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > > showing > > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be > formed! > > > > > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< > http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201 > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > OISHIK SIRCAR > > Scholar in Women's Rights > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > 60 Harbord Street > Room 016 B > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > 416.876.7926 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/818bddb4/attachment.html From matters.art at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 10:04:19 2007 From: matters.art at gmail.com (mattersofart.com) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 04:34:19 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Merry Christmas ! from www.mattersofart.com. Our Dec 20th, 2007 upload can be viewed online now! Message-ID: <9bbea5780712222034h490207b2y215b719be49ad54b@mail.gmail.com> Merry Christmas ! from www.mattersofart.com. Our Dec 20th, 2007 upload can be viewed online now! Dear Friends, Log on to www.mattersofart.com for the latest news in Indian contemporary art. - Partha Chatterjee meets Timothy Human in New Delhi. - Manoj Vyloor in conversation with Ratheesh T. - A report on Mark Wallinger winning the Turner Prize 2007. - Artcurial auction in Paris ; an analysis. - Vrushali Dhage shares her experience at the RPG Camp, Mumbai - Exhibition reviews: Jitish Kallat, Kim Kiyoungae, Paresh Maity, Vinay K.D., - Yashwant Deshmukh and Yogesh Rawal. - Plus more ; exhibition reviews, and features and news … - Riyas Komu's latest show 'Mark Him' - Baiju Parthan : 'Liquid Memories + Rant'…a solo show in New Delhi, - Himmat Shah : solo show in Mumbai, - Saffronart Winter Auction results. And much more……. -- Anoop Kamath Editor-in-Chief www.mattersofart.com Mobile: 98111 68775 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071223/14a229c4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 10:25:34 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:25:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Nadim Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712252055jdc3a492v7c2505b2ceefb5f8@mail.gmail.com> Rashneek writes about Nadim http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=25_12_2007&ItemID=38&cat=12 Regards Pawan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/6a7dfbd4/attachment.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 13:23:42 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 13:23:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-IV In-Reply-To: <13df7c120712251942v25581e10u4a4b589ff63932bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <13df7c120712251942v25581e10u4a4b589ff63932bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712252353k5b4d2c88mc86c653170cc101e@mail.gmail.com> I must compliment Rashneek for the great work . The Interpretations given by Shuddha stand corrected. This is perhaps the best and the most extensive work I have come across in SARAI , and SARAI should be congratulated to have made this platform available to Rashneek to correct the myth which was otherwise created. Wel done Rashneek. On 12/26/07, rashneek kher wrote: > > *Part-IV* > > *Shudda's Rajatarngani* > > Let us now move to the third part of Shudda's observations where he has > written in detail about the kings who burnt temples,destroyed Viharas etc > etc.Although I have read both R.S.Pandit's translation of Rajatarangni as > well as Aurel Stein's translation( complete with notes and his travels to > many places mentioned by Kalhan)the notes that I had made on both (as a > Class XI student,I and my father traveled to a lot of places which Kalhana > mentions in Rajatarngni) were burnt when my house was razed to ground by > terrorists(sorry divinely ordained dervishes and missionaries) on the > Janam > Asthami of 1990.I will refer to Aurel Stein's translation and footnotes > since in my opinion he presents a more detailed account of Kalhana's > Kashmir. > Another reason for me to refer to his translation and footnotes is that R > S > Pandit was no historian of any repute, whatsoever, while Aurel Stein's > extensive work leaves little to imagination. Thus wherever he could he has > closed loops so that half-baked historians don't go on an imagination hunt > and derive their own meanings. > > (I apologize for not being in a position to use diacritical marks.) > > Let us look at each king mentioned by Shudda > > 1.*Jalauka:*This King finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 108-152.,Vol > 1,page > 26.Aurel Stein's translation. > > While it is true that he did destroy one Vihara(and not many Buddhist > Shrines as Shudda imagines and later tells us) the reason for the same as > mentioned in Rajatatarangni is that he was disturbed while sleeping > because > of the music emanating from the said Vihara.It clearly is no religious > zeal > that drove him to do this act. > > This can be easily understood the following(Tarnaga 1,140-144)page 26 Book > 1,Volume 1, Aurel Stein's Translation: > > "When you had lately been kept from sleep by the noise of the music of the > Vihara,you had at the instigation of wicked persons caused in your anger > the > destruction of the Vihara.The excited Bauddhas thought of me and sent me > forth to kill you.But then the Boddhisattvas called me and gave me the > following directions:'That great king is a Sakya(Mahasakya).You cannot > hurt > him;but in his presence,O good one,you will obtain liberation from > darkness(sin).In our name you shall exhort him who has been ed into guilt > by > wicked people,to give up his hoarded gold and to build a Vihara.If he does > so,no misfortune shall befall him in consequence of the destruction of the > Vihara,and atonement shall thus be made for him and his instigators." > > The king repents for the sin he committed in a fit of anger and later > builds > the Vihara and names it after the divine sorceress.The same can be easily > verified by the following Taranga 1,147,page 26,Vol 1 of Aurel Stein's > translation > > "Thereupon the king built the Krtyasarama Vihara,and worshipped there the > divine sorceress who had been freed from darkness" > > So Shudda's assertion that"Jalauka's destruction of Buddhist shrines" is > but > an incorrect statement.There is only one Vihara in question and not many > shrines.Probably in order to prove his point my friend is very liberal in > the use of alphabet (s).One may also be tempted to ask if Jalauka was > himself a Buddhist,he being the son of Ashoka. > > Notwithstanding his religious leanings we learn from Rajatarangi that he > did > destroy 1(one) Vihara for which he later repented by building a Vihara. > > Now here I ask Shudda to name one Muslim ruler in Kashmir who repented for > his acts of Iconoclasm and re-build temples. > > 2.*Abhimanyu-1.*This king finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 174-184,Vol1 > page 31-33,Aurel Stein translation. > > We straight away go to the verses which Shudda mentions as his proof of > Iconoclasm and religious persecution by Abhimanyu 1.These are 177-181. > > I don't even deem it worth discussing what can be best be defined as > Shudda's figament of imagination.Yet for purpose of clarity I discuss > it.Theimportant verse is verse 181 of Taranga 1,page 33,Vol1 of > Stein's > translation.This is how it reads > > "At that time there manifested itself some miraculous power through which > the Brahmans,who offered oblations and sacrifices,escaped destruction > while > the Bauddhas perished" > > From this verse our friend presumes that Brahmans killed or persecuted > Buddhists.He supports this what R.S.Pandit in his footnote to the verses > 180-181 says"this (snow that killed the Buddhists) is PERHAPS a poetic > description of the persecution of Buddhists during this era." > > One is tempted to ask what is the source on the basis of which > R.S.Panditpresumes his PERHAPS. > R.S.Pandit being a person of shallow knowledge of history can be pardoned > for his ignorance but when someone like our own Shudda (who I greatly > regard > for his scholarship) uses this as an example of Iconoclasm or > Persecution,it > is but sad.We could have agreed with RS Pandit,if anything in the > Rajatarangi had mentioned Abhimanyu 1, as an unjust ,licentious,communal > or > ill mannered moanarch.But that is not the case. > > Not only this,while Aurel Stein makes a detailed foot note of the verse > 180,he doesn't even bother to write a word about 181 since to any > intelligent reader it is more than self explanatory. > > 3.*Nara**:This king finds mention in Taranaga 1,verses 197-275,Vol 1,page > 34-41 of Aurel Stein's translation.* > > Shudda's explanation of the verses 199-200 of Taranaga 1,are more or less > correct.While Stein mentions the woman in question as the king's wife > R.S.Pandit mentions her as king's lover.Whichever be the case the Buddhist > monk does seduce the king's wife through magical powers. > > Enraged by this the king does destroy thousands of Viharas.The reason for > destruction of Viharas is clear and needs no explanation.Though an > unpardonable sin,clearly religious zeal or conversion or selective > persecution is certainly not mentioned. > > 4.*Mihirkula:This king finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 289-324,page > 43-48,Vol1,Aurel Stein's translation.* > > Shudda writes"Here we enter the terrain of strictly historical account of > iconoclasm in Kashmir" > > He refers to verses 289-293 of Taranga 1.Now let see what is said in them > > I re-write Stein's translation for the benefit of the readers and for an > easy explanation later. > > 289-293"Then his son Mihirkula,a man of violent acts and resembling > Kala(Death),ruled in the land which was overrun by hordes of Mlecchas.Inhim > the northern region brought forth ,as it were,another god of death,bent in > rivalry to surpass the southern region which has the Yama(as its > guardian).The people knew his approach by noticing the vultures,crows and > other birds which were flying ahead eager to feed on those who were being > slain within his armies' reach.This royal Vitala was day and night > surrounded by thousands of murdered human beings,even in his > pleasure-houses.This terrible enemy of mankind had no pity for children,no > compassion for women,no respect for the aged." > > From the above I could not find out anything that would indicate to me > that > he killed Buddhists alone or burnt their Viharas only and not Hindu > Temples.If anyone else can,I would be more than willing to be > corrected.However as Shudda mentions that R.S.Pandit in his foot note > says"Huns carried out terrible persecution of Buddhism,destroying Stupas > and > Viharas and massacring the monks.Although the Huns were hostile to > Buddhism,they protected Saivism and their kings built temples in honour of > Shiva" > > *I started looking at the other verses that Kalhana writes for this cruel > king.Surprisingly the word Buddhist or Vihara or Stupa simply does not > find > a mention in the verses which have described Mihirkula's despotic > regime.Sothe question of him destroying them simply does not arise > unless in > someone's imagination.It is possible that other Huna rulers might have > done > what RS Pandit writes as his footnote.Even that seems improbable,because > if > any such references would have been there Shudda would have found them. * > > As far as building temples Kalahana says in Verse 306,Taranga 1 Vol1,page > 46 > the following"Thus,evil-minded as he was,he founded at Srinagari the > (shrine > of Shiva) Mihireshwara,and in Holada the large town called Mihirpura" > > *I hope building a Shiva temple is no proof of Iconoclasm.* > > As for giving Agraharas,Shudda himself acknowledges that he gave it to > Brahmanas born in the Gandhara country at Vijayeshwara.What is notable is > the scorn that Kalhana heaps on these foreign Brahmanas for accepting > Agraharas from this wretched king.This is how Stein translates this verse. > > Ref verse 307,Taranga 1,Vol1,page 46, > > Brahmanas from Gandhara,resembling himself in their habits and verily > themselves the lowest of the twice-born,accepted Agraharas from him" > > *So Shudda's assertion"Here we enter the terrain of strictly historical > account of iconoclasm in **Kashmir**" falls flat for want of credible > historical proof.* > > 5.*Jayapida:This king finds mention in Taranga 4,Verses 402-659,page > 158-180,Vol 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* > > This is one king who Kashmiri Pandits need no mention of.Almost all of us > in > our hour of vanity refer to the miraculous powers of our forefathers the > curse of who led to Jayapida's painful end.We often take re-course to our > past and foolishly so. > > What Shudda has observed with respect to Jayapida is true and just goes on > to prove my point that the reasons for Icocnoclasm or persecution by > non-muslim kings of Kashmir could have been anything but religious > expansion > or promotion of their own faith.That greed was the motive for his > persecution of his subjects can be easily testified by this verse > > Ref verse 628,Taranaga 4,page 177,Vol1,Stein's Translation > > "In his persistent greed he went so far in cruelty,that for three years he > took the (whole) harvest,including the cultivator's share" > > 6.Ksemagupta:This king finds mention in Taranga 6,verses 150 to187,page > 247 > to 250,Vol 1,Aurel Stein's translation. > > Shudda refers to Ksemagupta's iconoclasm by his act of burning down of > holy > Jayendra Vihara and subsequent errection of temples.Let us ourselves read > what Kalhana says about this incident > > Ref:171-173 verses,Taranga 6,page 248,Vol1,Stein's translation. > > "In order to kill the Damara Samgrama,who when attacked by the > assassins,had > enetered the famous Jayendravihara,he(Ksemagupta) had the latter burnt > down > without mercy.Taking from this Vihara,which was entirely burned down,the > brass of the image of Sugata(Buddha), and collecting a mass of stones from > decaying temples,he erected the (temple of Siva) Ksemagaurisvara in a > market > street of the city,thinking foolishly that the foundation of the shrine > would perpetuate his fame" > > Now,the motive for burning the Vihara is known to us as is the foolish > reason for erecting a temple.The king proves himself to be a wicked soul > but > to attribute the reasons of religious bigotry for the destruction would be > taking the argument too far. The argument that he used material from the > Vihara to build the temple is fallacious because Stein's translation > itself > is clear when it reads"and collecting a mass of stones from decaying > temples"Even the Sanskrit verse reads"Devagrah" which means > temple.Kalhanauses the word "Chaityas or Viharas" to describe Buddhist > places of worship > ,although a Chaitya is the place of worship while a Vihara is a monastry > in > which Chaityas were generally situated. > > 7. *Harsha:This king finds mention in Taranga 7 and Kalahana has written > extensively on this king.Ref Taranga 7,verses 829 to 1732.page 333 to 402 > of > Volume 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* > > We have already looked at the views of various historians and analysed > their > writings with respect to Harsha"the Iconoclast"However the discussion > would > be incomplete unless we refer to what Kalhana writes about this wretched > king.We will also see the impact of the word "Turuska" which has baffled > historians. > > There can be no difference of opinion as far as his title of Iconoclast > goes. > > Let us try and understand the reasons for his Iconoclasm based on Kalhanas > description.This is what Aurel Stein writes in "Harsha's temple > de-spoliation" > > Ref Introduction Chap 5,sec 5,page 113,Volume 1 of Aurel Stein's > translation. > > "Extravagant expenditure on the troops and senseless indulgence in costly > pleasures involved Harsa in grave financial troubles.From these he > endeavoured to free himself by ruthless spoliation of sacred > shrines.Kalhanarelates with some humour how the incidental discovery > of the treasures > hoarded at the temple of King Bhima Sahi had turned the king's attention > to > this method of replenishing his ex-chequer.After the temple treasuries had > been ransacked,Harsa proceeded to the still more revolutionary measure of > confiscating divine images in order to possess himself of the valuable > metal > of which they were made.Kalhana records the strange fact that as a > preliminary step the sacred images were systematically defiled through > outcast mendicants.As Kalhana is particular to specify the few metal > statues > of gods throughout Kashmir which escaped Harsha's clutches,we cannot doubt > the extent of Harsha's iconoclasm.*Can the latter have been instigated or > encouraged somehow by the steady advance of Muhammadanism in the > neighbouring terrorities?Kalahana,when relating these shameful > confiscations,gives to Harsha the epithet"Turuska",ie Muhammadean,and > later > on makes a reference to Turuska captains being employed in his army and > enjoying his favour."* > > From the above it almost seems clear that Harsa was greatly influenced by > Muhammedeans and is likely to have committed these acts of Iconoclasm > under > their influence if not at their behest.From the way he went on to destroy > and defile almost all icons, without bias either in favour of Hindus or > Buddhists draws a parallel to Muslim rulers who did the same.Harsa made no > difference when it came to defiling Buddhist and Hindu images makes us > believe that he was purely an iconoclast and the philosophy of Iconoclasm > where every image deserves to be destroyed is a concept rooted in one > Semitic religion alone. > > Let us also look at the word Turuska and its connotations with regard to > Kalhana's Rajatarngni.In all there are 19 references to the word Turuska > in > Rajatarangni.There is one reference to Yavan in Rajatarangni.There are 14 > references to the word Mlecchas in Rajatarngni. > > I agree with Shudda that words like Yavan,Turuska and Mleccha were used > interchangeably to describe foreigners/outsiders/Muslims by > Kalhana.ThatKalhana uses the word "Turuska" to describe kings like > Husha,Jushka and > Kanishka cannot be refuted.We however need to study the word "Turuska" in > the context of how Kalhana uses it for Harsa.We also need to see how Stein > understands this word.For the benefit of the readers I give below all the > references to the word in Rajatarangni. > > Refer:Index Vol 2 page no 546 of Aurel Stein's translation. > > Turks,their habits iv .179;kings Huska,Juska,Kanishka called Turuskas > I,170,viii 3412;enemies of Lalliya Sahi v 152;soldiers of > Hammira(Mahumud), > vii 51,56,70,118;sell slave girls,520;mercenaries supported by > Harsa,1149;Harsa fears attack from Turuskas,1159;Muhammadean allies of > Bhiksacrara,viii 885,886,919,923;northern allies of Dards,2843;invaders of > the Punjab,3346;artist from Turuska Country vii.528;Harsa called Turuska > i.e.Muhammadean,1095. > > We need to look at the Turuska reference with regard to Harsa to > understand > whether it was "Mohammadean" that Kalhana meant by Turushka.As far as > Stein > is concerned he seems to be in no doubt whatsoever.This can be safely > understood by the last of the references given above and given again for > easy reference.( Harsa called Turuska i.e.Muhammadean,1095,vii). > > As for other references except for one where Kalhana uses Turuska to > describe Huska,Juska and Kanishaka all other references clearly point out > that Kalhana uses Turuska as a synonym of Mohammedean.. > > Still let us look at some specific references > > Invaders of Panjab,viii,3346,page 261,Vol 2,Aurel Stein's > translation……Prince Sangiya,the younger brother of Kamaliya,consecrated (a > linga) under his own name.He was born from a race of Ksattriyas,who owing > to > their native place being within the territory of the Turuskas had learned > nothing but cruelty…… > > Here Stein in his footnote writes..K refers to the condition of the Panjab > after the Muhammadean conquest. > > Soldiers of Hammira(Mahmud),vii 51,56,70,118, Vol 1,pages 270-276,Aurel > Stein's translation > > These verses make for an interesting reading because they describe the > Muhhamdean conflict with the Hindu-Shahi dynasty.In this rather detailed > footnotes of the verses 47-69 Stein writes"There is no doubt that > Kalhana's > narrative ,vii 47-69,relates to one of the campaigns which Mahmud of > Ghazna > directed against Trilochanpala and his allies.The identity of our account > with Mahmud has been recognized by REINAUD,lc.Already before him Thomas( > J.R.A.S,ix p.190sq)had shown the derivation of this term from the Arabic > tittle Amiru-l-mumenin,and its application on coins and elsewhere to > Ghaznavid Sultan.Reinaud has also rightly pointed out that the expression > Turuska used for Trilochanpala's opponents ,vii 51,56, is particularly > appropriate for Mahmud's army,which chiefly consisted of soldiers of > Turkish > origin." > > Documentary evidence heavily supports the fact that Harsa was greatly > under > the influence of his employed Muslim commanders.From the available > references it can also be safely understood that in the context of Harsha > Kalhana uses the word Turuska to refer to Muslims alone. > > From the above one can conclude that though Harsa's iconoclasm had its > origins in greed and later in enjoyment of heresy and corruption resulting > from power the effect of his Muslim friends can simply not be ruled > out.Inmy opinion he was the first of the kings who started the process > which was > to be later followed by other"Turuska" kings. > > As is said "Coming events cast their shadows before'The catastrophe that > was > to hit Kashmiris later had its shadow in Harsha"the turuska". > > *Sankarvarman:This king finds mention in the Taranga 5 verses 128-227 page > 202-216,Volume 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* > > I wrote in my posting to Shudda"Nowhere has Kalhana mentioned > Shankarvarman > destroying Viharas" > > Shudda gives us this verse from Taranga 5 as a proof of Sankaravarman's > destruction of Buddhist Viharas.Let us read the verse no 161 of taranga > 5.R.S.Pandit's translation pg 207. > > "Thus the ruler,who possessed but little character,had whatever was of > value > at Parihaspura,carried off in order to raise the fame of his own city" > > Aurel Stein's translation of this verse reads like a copy of Pandit's > translation.Let us read that too.page 207,Vol1,Aurel Stein's translation. > > "Thus this ruler,who possessed but little character,had whatever was of > value at Parihaspura,carried off in order to raise the fame of his city" > > Two inferences can be drawn after reading the above verse. > > 1.Kalhana considers the king as bereft of any character. > > 2.He took away things from Parihaspura to raise the fame of his city. > > In order to understand whether this was an act of destroying Viharas > alone,we need to know which buildings existed at Parihaspura in the first > place.Was Parihaspura a city of Buddhist Viharas alone? Was Parihaspura a > city where Buddhist Viharas outnumbered Hindu temples?Did Shankaravarman > destroy Parihaspura?Are there any direct/indirect references in the verse > mentioned above which would indicate Shankarvarman destroying Viharas? > > All these questions need to be answered before finding out whether > Sankarvarman destroyed any Viharas at all or if he did so how many to be > precise and which ones.So let us go back to Rajatarangi and read Taranaga > 4,verses 194-209,Vol 1 page142-143 of Aurel Stein's translation. > > Parihaspura drew its name from Parihaskesava(Lord Vishnu) the image of who > was the first installation at Parihaspura.If one reads through all the > verses that I have referred to above it would not be hard to know that > except for two images of Buddha(including the famous Brhdbuddha image) all > other installations were those of Hindu gods and goddesses mainly Vishnu. > So > Shudda's derivation (from verse 161 of Taranga 5)that stealing of material > of any worth from Parihaspura is equal to destruction of Viharas holds no > water.If at all he did destroy Parihaspura,Kalhana would have mentioned > this > in great detail for Parihaspura was no pushover as a city.It was built by > the tallest Kashmiri King ever.Kalhana himself describes it as town" that > mocked the residence of Indra" .How could a historian of Kalhanas repute > have erred in mentioning its destruction at the hands of Shankarvarman and > forgiven Samkaravarman for destruction of a city like Parihaspura. > Shudda's > attempts to communalize Samkarvarman don't seem to work.Let us also note > that Kalhana says "Sankarvarman took away anything of value"No way does he > write or even gives an indication that Sankarvarman destroyed the > city,leave > alone Viharas. > > I request my friend Shudda to come up with more plausible explanations > than > the one he has given.It is good to read between lines.That is how history > should be read but imagining is different from reading between the lines. > > Let us look at the other verses that Shudda has mentioned about > Sankarvarman. > > I am in total agreement with Shudda that Sankarvarman destroyed temples > and > like Harsha ,he too had officers who supervised the same.I had in no case > argued that Sankarvarman was a just king who did not persecute his > subjects > neither had I argued that he did not destroy temples.All I had said was > Kalhana nowhere mentions that Sankarvarman destroyed Viharas the credible > evidence for which, I have already given.That he destroyed temples and > collected share of profits from them proves that Sankarvarman was a wicked > and a greedy king but that he destroyed Viharas is simply preposterous. > > No direct or indirect reference is given either by Kalhana or later by > Stein > which would indicate that he selectively persecuted Buddhists or other > sects > who were social outcasts. > > Let us now look at Agam-adambara which Shudda presents as a proof of his > argument that non-vedic people were prosecuted by Shankarvarman.I salute > this great master of history who outrightly rejects Jonaraja,Shuka,Srivara > and Prajabhatta as not being credible historians yet he presents a poet as > a > source of history.It just goes on to show what ridiculous lengths some of > us > can sometimes go to prove our point.Agam-adambara is a play and hence not > in > any way a source of credible historical evidence.Whileplays,stories,poetry > written in a certain era do indicate the social,cultural and other facets > of > that era we cannot use them as credible historical evidences.We cannot use > " > Haroun and the Sea of Stories" a thousand years from now as a historical > source to understand a particular event of history.In the same manner > Agamadambara may provide us an outline of the time of Sankarvarman,but to > use it as a source of history would only be a mistake. > > But since Shudda has read it and wanted to quote from it as a proof of his > hard work and knowledge of Sanskrit we may as well look at this > also.Ipresent an essay written by > Dr.Ved Kumari Ghai,who is considered an authority on Kashmir's Sanskrit > Literature has written an essay on "Agamadmabara" in her book > titled"Kashmir > ka Sanskrit Sahitya ko Yogdhaan"published by J&K Academy of Art,Culture > and > Languages,Jammu > > ref page no 30-35 > > She refers to the third act of the play.This is what she says" p 32 > > "Teesre Ank main Tantrik Shaiv Sadhak Kankalaketu tatha Shamshanabhuti > bhaybheet hain ki Shankarvarman aur uska mantra Jayant,aadveik > matavlambiyon > ko desh se bahar nikalne par tule hain.Unki yojna yeh hai ki Yogeshwari > Kalangi Shika ke madhyam se Maharani Sughanda par prabhav daalkar iss > nishkasan ko rukvaya jayen.Tabhi dondi sunayee padti hai ki Sankarshana > aur > Maharaj Sankarvarman kee Aagya anusaar jagat pravah se chale aa rahe nana > agam anuyayi apne apni kriyaen karte huyean rajya main rahe parantu > prastut > dharmo main vighan daalne wale tap se vimukh papi logon ko raja > sankarvarman > samapt kar denge.Bahut se sadhu dar kar rajya se bhagne lagte > hain.Sankarshan svyam shaiva ashram me jaa kar shaivmata anuyyayeon ki > branti door karta hai tatha rajya se bhagte huve logon ko lautane ko > vyakti > bhejta hai" > > The above very clearly shows how the kings representative himself stops > mendicants belonging in my opinion to Laukilisa or Pashupat Cult , from > leaving the country. > > In the fourth act of the play kings wife Sughanda calls for a congregation > of saints of various schools of philosophy and to our surprise even > Carvakas > join the assembly.In the end of the discussions the chairman Bhatt Sahat > concludes by saying the following,in the words of Ved Kumai "Jaise kisi > nagar ya mahal main pravesh karne ke ichuk alag alag dwaron se pravesh kar > sakte hain usee prakar moksh ke ichhuk sadhak bhi moksh ki praapti ki liye > alag alag marg apna sakte hain"ref p 34, > > Now my dear friend where is the question of selective persecution. > > Although I have put forth my comments on Adam-agambara I still don't > consider this as a historical source though it can be a reflection of the > times of Shankarvarman.Poets/playwrights have poetic license and use it > liberally.They use Alamkaras and Atishouktis to add spice to their > works.Soto use or even suggest using them to verify a certain > historical event is > committing historical hara-kiri. > > Here I suggest not admonish Shudda to read Nilamatapurana now that he has > already taken a plunge himslef.It is incidentally translated by Ved Kumari > only. > > *Anangpala:Taranga 7,verse 147;*This bugger was not a Kashmiri , nor a > king > or a king who ruled Kashmir. That he was related to King Ananata was his > only connection to Kashmir.It is like a nephew of Rahul Gandhi coming from > Italy and then doing something which is out of sync with our culture.Can I > take this an example of Rahul Gandhi being a non-conformist or less-Indian > or something of that sort. Giving examples of Prince of Kabul for proving > Hindu Iconoclasm in Kashmir shows that Shudda had to work really hard to > find examples to justify his argument. > > Summary:Kalhana records Kashmir's history for a total of 3339 > years.Thereare 147 kings who find mention in > Rajatarangni.Out of these our learned friend (after a lot of hard work and > digging,even muck raking)could find only seven kings (as per his analysis) > who he believes to have committed acts of Iconoclasm and persecution.Hedoes > not go into the motives for the same except in case of Harsha where he > defends his citadel that Harsha wasn't really so-much under Islamic > influence to have committed acts of iconoclasm against Hindu and Buddhist > icons as Muslim rulers later did. > > Let us assume(playing Shudda's advocate) all seven of the kings including > Anangpala(an Afghan prince) did commit acts of iconoclasm wouldn't it be > more of an exception/aberration rather than a rule.Although I have > conclusively proved on the basis of written evidence that not more than 4 > kings in an entire span of 3339 years have resorted to such acts.This is > not to say that Hindu kings were any better than Muslim kings in terms of > governance/administration ,justice delivery system or persecution of their > subjects.Not even one Pre-Islamic king has been found to have resorted to > selective persecution on the basis of faith. > > Now compare this with the kings in the Islamic period of approximately 450 > years one can count on ones fingers the kings (Zainul-abidin,Akbar,Hassan > Shah,Jehangir,Shah-Jehan)who did not resort to large scale persecution on > the basis of religion & iconoclasm.That Shia's or Sunnies also subjugated > each other is but a proof of religious intolerance within Islam's > different > sub-sects.A detailed account of the same has already been provided in the > earlier chapter titled"Motives Behind Iconoclasm-The Muslim Kings".More > evidence shall be shared in the next chapter where we will discuss Jia Lal > Kilam and how Shudda uses his book. > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/1bb8ef32/attachment.html From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 17:38:30 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 04:08:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Why did Modi win? Looking for analyses from Anti-Modi voices. Message-ID: <681611.98800.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The Drums and Drummers of victory celebrations used to belong to the one victorious in battles/wars. Times have changed. The (usually referred to as) Mainstream Media seems to have lost the capability of objective comment/reportage whether pre or post Gujarat Elections. I am looking for informed analysis (and not peurile or frenzied by bias comments) about "Why Modi won" from Anti-Modi voices. Would appreciate such analyses being shared by those who have access to them. Kshmendra Kaul --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/a9e9b734/attachment.html From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 21:33:05 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:03:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Idol worship In-Reply-To: <543470.13635.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <371759.98694.qm@web57209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> RESENDING SINCE I RECEIVED A BOUNCE (MODERATOR APPROVAL REQD FOR NON-MEMBERS). SINCE I AM A MEMMBER (OR WAS IF I HAVE BEEN REMOVED) PRESUMED IT WAS A GLITCH Dear Chanchal This Reader List is not meant for the comparative study of religions. My advice and request would be to avoid religious discourses especially of the kind "my religion is better than yours" Religion does influence and interfere into political and sociological matters. That cannot be ignored but any comment/analysis needs to have specificity to a situation/issue. Chanchal, I belong to what is generally known as "Hinduism". Yet, the "Dharmik" precepts that are dear to me and that fascinate me are quite a distance from what "Hinduism" has become. My point is that just as I could find many things to criticise in Islam or amongst Muslims. I could also pick many things to criticise about Hinduism and Hindus. Muslims and Christians are as much a part of India as a Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Jain, Agnostic, Atheist... etc etc. We should look for the affirmatives (as well as negations) that would consolidate each ones contribution to a healthier India. Criticising the word or action of one who seeks to damage India is as much applicable to a Hindu as it is to a Muslim or Christian or any other one. Kshmendra Kaul chanchal malviya wrote: For those who have advocated Idolatory as abuse to God - let them show One religion and one society in the world who do not worship Idols and are peaceful... Quick questions: 1. What are words describing Allah? Only literates can read those words. Blind can hear those words. Blind and Deaf can neither read nor hear those words - what about those Muslims. 2. Do you believe that a picture (image) is worth more than 1000 words? What would you prefer to worship - words or images. Which is more impacting - picture or words? These questions might seem to be simple, but they are not. let me put some analysis for you... 1. Hindus worship Ideals and not Idols. Ask the most idiot of all Hindus, would the stone move or talk for you and he will so 'No'. But if you ask the same Hindu, what will your stone do if I break it, and he will reply what will your Allah or Christ do it, if I abuse him. The answers are same on both side, the effect is same. But one question is sure to think in depth - why do Hindus worship Idols then when all of them knows that it cannot move or talk? And answer is so simple - Can Allah or Christ move or talk? You find Allah and Christ in your words, we find our God in Idols. How beautiful your words are you know, but we know our Idols are the most beautiful creations of some hands. 2. Hindus worshipping Idols while knowing that it will not move or talk signifies that Hindus are worshipping the Immaterial in relation to Material (Both of which constitutes the world). But Islam or Christian think that God is an entity that sits somewhere in 7th world and watches helplessly on us. 3. Names like Allah or Christ signifies the identity of God as an entity. 4. God as One is also in Hinduism, but not illogical to say that he is material bounded by smallest finite number 'One'. Hindus believe that all manifestations and energies of manifestations when summed up results in that 'One' which has formed everything and which is the formation too. Thus the 'One' is explained. 5. Human minds are materialistic. Senses requires material to sense and understand things. Hence, to understand and feel God, words, images, emotions, everthing in Hinduism has a place. 6. Love, respect and regard is the pillars of all Hindu worship (Unlike all other religions, where they worship religion and force the same on others). 7. Deities in Hindus are natural powers - they were not humans. They are used as metaphors to explain the natural science. Thus, story of Brahma, Vishnu and others in Quran doesn't mean that they had physical existence - they are the icons to relate to natural powers. For example, Jyotir Lingam means Shiv - The God of Light - Jyoti meaning light and Lingam in sanskrit meaning Symbol. Thus shiva is a symbol of light, light being the highest form of energy - and hence Shiva is called as Mahadeva. 8. Idol worhship is a social arrangement which absorbs all level of thinking to become peaceful in nature. It is because, Hindus seem to be worshipping Idols, but actually they do not worship Idols - they worship Ideals. Hence, when one worships Lord Rama, he doesn't worship Rama as God, he worships the best of God in Rama. Islam says God is most benevolent, the most kind... but fails to categorize this most and ends up in saying that he is an entity. Hinduism goes far ahead from this to say that God is within us too, with all his qualities - it is up to us to realize the best of him - humans fail to do, but the most powerful of all natural creations does this - Lord Rama and Krishna did this - and hence the best of God is what is worshipped. Nothing in Hinduism is illogical. Everything has a scientific and natural research of thousands of years behind it. It is like, we do not need to know how to build a computer and hence we are simply taught the softwares. So, a Hindus need not know what is Saraswati in natural form, but are taught to relate her with the ability to study - the ability being the power of nature that helps in building knowledge. And hence, Hindus worship Saraswati and making a beautiful idol is to ensure that everyone has the love and respect towards 'Vidya'. How will Muslims and Christians understand this - when their whole social arrangement is to kill. A child grows with a goat with love and is then taught to kill it barbarously with his hand. Anyone going against is declared Kafir and anything outside the hardlined boundary is thought as impure. If Jesus became God by forgiving his enemies, let the world start worshipping 1 billion Jesus - for Hindus have been forgiving even greater barbarism from past 1000 years. Jai Hind, ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-39 Size: 8133 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/cdfdac43/attachment.bin From subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 23:37:22 2007 From: subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com (Subuhi Jiwani) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 10:07:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Where's the critical thinking on the Gujarat election results? In-Reply-To: <200471.39010.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <412148.79667.qm@web51307.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear all, Since the Gujarat elections results were announced, my editor-friend in New York (Bill Weinberg, www.ww4report.com) asked me for an angle from which he/we could approach the news and critically analyse what it means. I turned to the Sarai listserv in the hope that I would find some critical thinking on the subject here. But I have been grossly disappointed by the nature of the conversation. Some of you have celebrated Modi's victory and are eagerly waiting for his entry into national-level politics. Others have bemoaned it and sent us links to Muslim prayers. Still others have compared the wrongdoings of Hindus and Muslims through the course of history. I must also say here that the conversation has been caught up in responding to so-and-so and clarifying so-and-so's -- or the writer's -- points and his/her terminology. Several emails are exchanged between individuals and I've been hearing opinions, responses and counter-responses. But where is the critical thinking? The rigorous analysis? The incisive probing? The disrobing of Modi's seemingly successful hegemonic project in Gujarat? The Gujarati intellectuals who are living in the state? Vivek's note was reassuring though. Let me say, as he does, that Modi's victory is a tragic event for Indian democracy. That "what we have here are two world views that hate each other but are, not coincidentally, symmetrical in their design" (Narayanan). I remember an email that Moinak Biswas had sent to this group, an email that gave a personal and yet critical account of the protest in Kolkata against what happened in Nandigram. It was personal, emotional even, but an alternative kind of reportage. It was a voice that I wouldn't have heard in the mainstream media. It was empirical observation and fact mixed in with personal comment and critical thought. It was refreshing. It was the kind of alternative thinking -- and I don't mean only politically but methodologically too -- that I expect to encounter in this space. One question that I have is: How did Modi manage so effectively to brainwash the Gujarati voters with his promise of development when the Tehelka expose, which once again underlined his protection of murderers and arsonists, had come out just weeks before the election? All these questions only mean that there's a ton of more reading I need to do. Any insights you have on the matter are welcome. Warmly, Subuhi Jiwani Subuhi Jiwani Freelance writer 51, Pyramid next to Dariya Mahal Jayprakash Road Versova Mumbai 400061 98927-66618 (022)2636-6367 ____________________ With nothing can one approach a work of art so little as with critical words: they always come down to more or less happy misunderstandings... A work of art is good if it has sprung from necessity. In this nature of its origin lies the judgement of it: there is no other. Rainer Maria Rilke, in a letter to Franz Xaver Kappus, 1903; from 'Letters to a young poet', 1934 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071227/74a63871/attachment.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 16:31:53 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 16:31:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: <796663.78987.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <796663.78987.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712280301n2e767cbdraff600486c00cf4c@mail.gmail.com> This is happening to me since more than 8 weeks ! Selective Moderation ..... On 12/28/07, we wi wrote: > > Dear All, > > Why is this happening again and again? I think SARAI itself confused > whether it is moderated or administered. If it is moderated then the > contents of the every mail should be read and censored then only mail should > be published. There should be impartiality in this. If it is administered > it is something different again. > > > Regards, > dhatri. > > *Vedavati Jogi * wrote: > > > > see dhatri, > > my mails need moderator's approval but oshik, arnav's mails don't require > this type of approval. > > great! isn't it. > i think we now have to change the definition of 'vulgarity' also. > > > > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > > From: reader-list-bounces at mail.sarai.net > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:47:53 +0530 > > > > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > > > RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > > > The reason it is being held: > > > > Post by non-member to a members-only list > > > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/d25f5f515de09f04f676659df32b5b09b0a146cc > > > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071228/10361dce/attachment.html From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 13:09:58 2007 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 13:09:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Voices from Waters 2008 Message-ID: Voices from the Waters 2008 3rd International Film Festival on Water CALL FOR ENTRIES Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam, Svaraj- Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Finger Lakes Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm in Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to Water are organizing the third International 'Voices from the Waters'- the biggest international film festival on water in August 2008 following on the footsteps of the hugely popular and successful events in 2005 and 2007. This consortium of committed organizations active in water issues are inviting you to be part of this festival by contributing short, documentary, animation and feature films (DVD format only) with English subtitles on water and related issues. Also include a photograph and CV of the film-maker, a minimum of three film stills and a short synopsis of the film. You are also most welcome to send us photographs for exhibition at the festival. The first edition of 'Voices from the Waters' was held in April 2005 in collaboration with Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, while the second was held in June 2007 in Bangalore, India by a consortium of organizations. With the overwhelming success and the positive responses to the festival from across the globe and the urgency of the water issue to a planet headed towards catastrophe, 'Voices from the Waters' is being organized as an annual event of images and sounds, of films, songs, photo and art exhibitions, lectures and conferences, a platform for diverse voices – free as water as nature intended it to be. If you have a film under the following categories: 1. Water Scarcity, 2. The Dams and the Displaced, 3. Water Harvest, 4. Water Struggles, 5. Floods and Droughts, 6. Global Warming and Climate Change, 7. Impact of Deforestation on Water Bodies and 8. Water and Life, you should consider sending it to us so that we may place them in the festival. All entries will be acknowledged. 'Voices from the Waters' is a public awareness program and while there is no entry fee for the festival, the final short-list for the festival will be decided from the entries by a committee comprised of eminent film- makers, film critics and social activists. This is also conceived as a traveling film festival. Deadline for entries is 30th April, 2008 . For more information, contact us at the address below. Thanking you, Yours sincerely, The organizing committee If there is magic on this planet it is contained in water - Loran Eisley Contact:- Georgekutty A.L. Secretary, Bangalore Film Society, 33/1-9, Thyagaraja Layout, Jai Bharath Nagar, MS Nagar P.O., Bangalore- 560 033. Karnataka, India Tel: 91- 80- 25493705 Email: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com , waterjourneys at rediffmail.com http://www.voicesfromthewaters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071228/97bd391e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 23:52:40 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 00:22:40 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Gary Yonge on Pre-Muslim Utopia in Europe Message-ID: To believe in a European utopia before Muslims arrived is delusional Gary Younge Monday December 10, 2007 The Guardian <> In October, a promising young Iranian-German footballer, Ashkan Dejagah, refused to go to Israel to play for the German under-21 team in a European qualifier. Dejagah, who was born in Iran and came to Germany as a child, claimed if he went to Israel he might be denied entry into Iran. His decision not to go sparked accusations of antisemitism from German Jewish groups alongside calls from some politicians that he be dropped from the team (after some deliberation, German officials decided to keep him on the team). The debate that followed shed light on how much you have to know, and how much you have to forget, to become German in some eyes, and laid some ground rules for Dejagah's inclusion and integration. "Whoever represents Germany, whether a native German or an immigrant, has to identify with the history and culture of our society," said Ronald Pofalla, the general secretary of the conservative Christian Democrats. "If he does not want to do so out of personal political reasons, then that national jersey should be removed." There are at least six million reasons why Dejagah would be better off not identifying with German history and culture when it comes to contemplating a visit to Israel. But, for the time being, here are just two. First, he will find a far less murderous recent history of antisemitism in his Iranian heritage than he will in his German. Second, if any nation exemplifies the limits of integration without a vigorous culture of anti-racism it is Germany - the European nation where Jews were most assimilated and almost found themselves wiped out. The point is not to handcuff the likes of Pofalla to their history but to liberate them from self-delusion. No competition between Iran and Germany to see who has hated Jews least can produce a winner anyone can be proud of. But in Pofalla's case it illustrates that when you live in a street full of glass houses everybody should think twice about what they throw and who they throw it at. This is not a lesson confined to Germany. It has become a Europe-wide habit to refer to Muslims in particular and migrants in general as though they are barbarians who must either be civilised or banished, before they pollute the egalitarian societies in which they were either born or now live. Lacking all sense of humility, self-awareness and historical literacy, Europe's political class acts as though these communities not only manifest homophobia, sexism, antisemitism, political violence and social unrest, but also as though they invented them and introduced them to an otherwise utopian continent. Take France. Following the recent riots there, Jacques Myard, a nationalist deputy, explained the disturbances thus. "The problem is not economic. The reality is not economic. The reality is that an anti-French ethno-cultural bias from a foreign society has taken root on French soil and it is feeding on basic anti-French racism even if the rioters have French nationality." The French may need to import many things - from trashy popular films to fast food - but the one thing they have long produced themselves is a culture of riotous assembly. I have seen farmers hurl livestock at police, and ducked as students converted street furniture into missiles. There is nothing foreign about rioting in France. In Britain, the emergence of "home-grown bombers" is mentioned as though this is a new development, when in fact we have been growing our own bombers for years. We have a whole evening dedicated to burning one - it's called Guy Fawkes night. Then there was the late gay Dutch anti-immigration activist, Pim Fortuyn. "I have gay friends who have been beaten up by young Moroccans in Rotterdam," he said. "In Rotterdam we have third-generation Moroccans who still don't speak Dutch, oppress women and won't live by our values." There was, it seems, no gay-bashing or sexism in Rotterdam before the Moroccans came. One need not be in denial about the existence of prejudice in migrant and Muslim communities to grasp how pernicious it is to regard those views as exclusive to those communities or to be the result of their cultures. Nor need we be squeamish about challenging prejudice, regardless of where it comes from. The notion that bigotry in Muslim and migrant communities presents a multicultural conundrum is just one more straw man among many. You enforce the law, without fear or favour. You promote equality to all and for all. There is no conflict between this and racial equality - it is a prerequisite for it. If an imam doesn't like women walking past his mosque in a bikini, that's too bad for him. If an MP doesn't like women walking into his surgery in a niqab, that's too bad for him, too. Both have the right to say what they think - provided it doesn't promote violence - but women have the right to wear what they like. Nor should we be in denial about the idea that certain prejudices may be more prevalent in certain communities. The issue is what we make of that and whether we are prepared to apply those conclusions with equal rigour across the board. The prevalence of child sex abuse in the Catholic church was not, primarily, about Catholicism but single men having exclusive authority over and access to young children and taking advantage of it. No one who wants to be taken seriously has tried to hold each Catholic collectively responsible for these abuses or claim Catholics are inherently predisposed to child abuse, or that the abuse was essentially religious. Even as these scandals have run parallel with the war on terror, no one is claiming that Catholicism represents a threat to our civilisation. On February 15 last year, the European commission president, José Manuel Barroso, said Europe had to stand up for its core values and express its solidarity with the Danish people after widespread unrest over the cartoons of Muhammad in a Danish newspaper. "If not, we are accepting fear in our society," he said. "I understand that it offended many peoplein the Muslim world, but is it better to have a system where some excesses are allowed or be in some countries where they don't even have the right to say this?" That same day, in the Commons, the government voted to expand counterterrorism laws by making "glorification" of terrorism a criminal offence. Speaking after the vote, Tony Blair said the new law "will allow us to deal with those people and say: look, we have free speech in this country, but don't abuse it". Herein lies the problem with Enlightenment values, as they have been promoted in recent years. The values are fine. But those who champion them most fervently also do so most selectively. They embrace Muslim women campaigning against sexism, but ignore those fighting racism, Islamophobia or war. They attack Muslim fundamentalist homophobes on housing estates, but align themselves with Christian fundamentalist homophobes in the White House. They demand secularism and assimilation, but view every action by Muslims and immigrants as essentially foreign or religious. In short, they see their own attributes and others' flaws through a magnifying glass. No wonder their vision of the world is so distorted. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 19:29:58 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 19:59:58 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Benazir Bhutto Killed In Suicide Attack Message-ID: As of 8:10 a.m. New York time, Dec. 27, 2007: Benazir Bhutto's husband says she's been critically injured after being shot in the neck. 8:25 a.m. New York time: CNN's Kiran Chetry announces that Bhutto has been killed, quoting GEO and other TV sources. 8:35 a.m. New York time: Pakistan state TV confirms her death. Post your comments, news updates, links: http://www.sajaforum.org/2007/12/pak-benazir-bhu.html From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 19:31:57 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:01:57 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Assassins, A South Asia Story Message-ID: Since 1971, Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan) has framed much of its political reality in opposition to the idea of Pakistan. Some things I have heard over the years: "We will never allow Bangladesh to become Pakistan", "Why did we bother leaving Pakistan if we are going down the Islamic path as well?", "Thank god we're not with Pakistan", etc. The scars of the 1971 genocide run deep. Periodically wounds flare up, such as when Islamist groups with ties to death squads in 1971 claim it was "civil war" not "genocide" http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/category/jamaat-e-islami/ My khalato bon (cousin) has direct memories of 1971 and even refuses to eat dried fruit or nuts if she discovers it was imported from Pakistan. She once said to me "Pakistan, ota ekta desh holo naki?" (Pakistan, is that even a country?). This reminds me of the stories of post-WWII Jewish consumers who refused to buy Volkswagen/Mercedes cars. My parents (especially my mother) to this date refuse to visit Pakistan (they were posted there in the 60s). There is precious little comfort from such nationalist defenses. Yes we are no longer part of Pakistan, but it would not take much to tip the scale. It is only geography (non-adjacency to Afghanistan, no stake in Kashmir) that rescued us from Indo-Pak nuclear brinkmanship and American-Soviet pawn moves. Tariq Ali once wrote that Pakistan was the "used condom" from the Afghan war that America had fished out of the toilet after 9/11. With yesterday's assassination of Benazir, again the Pakistan shadow over Bangladesh. Palpable jitters on the Dhaka streets. How long before Bangladesh gets engulfed by similar syndromes? Meanwhile, two blog entries.. Assassins, A South Asia Story http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/28/assassins/ Assassination Alley http://rumiahmed.wordpress.com/2007/12/27/assassination/ From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 15:03:39 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 01:33:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <699406.53562.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> wow!!! Hmm the reality. chanchal malviya wrote: There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and girls around in the name freedom. 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, separating people from people. 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a ver fast pace 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare the nation as Islamic state 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands through local Muslims 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated children of careless parents. 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both area. 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work for India 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our own country. 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to achieve this nation as a group. There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. Jai Hind, ----- Original Message ---- From: Vedavati Jogi To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election what is meant by 'your beloved' country? don't you stay in this country? is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > _________________________________________________________________> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/9c0c2163/attachment.html From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 15:25:54 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 01:55:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] H sentiments up your A In-Reply-To: <4770FCA6.3090202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <609387.91893.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Agree or disagree but the entire mailing List Practically experienced that tapas ray dont have feeling for anything for his comments on woman,India,Hinduism,Scriptures,Ram and Politics in India quite sometime back. For that he wrote more clarifications also. So we need not consider Non-sentimental,feelingless peoples comments. Tapas Ray wrote: I fully agree with Fatima. The antics of Vedavati and her type are distasteful and pointless. Distasteful, because they insist on trying to establish the "rightness" of genocidal tyrants. Pointless, because they cannot succeed even if they try for a thousand years. But being abusive is not the way to engage with them. They need to be dealt with through argumentation if one has the taste for any sort dialogue or debate with them, or by ignoring them, for which the most effective way is to use mail filters. Tapas S.Fatima wrote: > Dear Oishik and others (maybe not Zainab) > I am sorry, but it seems all that the Psecularists are > left to do now is to jerk their knees to show their > frustration. Have we fallen so low after the defeat > that we can't even think rationally. > > Tell me frankly, is this the only way left to make a > dialogue. Or are we not interested in a dialogue? > > Frankly, I am not surprised at Modi's victory. To me, > life is not so black and white so as to see it through > only an election defeat or victory. Do you think some > miracles would happen to turn Gujarat into a > peace-utopia had the congress come to power? > > Its going to take ages to turn this country into a > sensible place to live in. Let us first make ourselves > a little more sensible. > > S.F. > > >> On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Vedavati: >>> >>> Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... >>> >> take that from a Hindu >> >>> brother of yours who had done that a long long >>> >> time back... trust me it >> >>> feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of >>> >> it... you'll keep doing it >> >>> over and over again... shoving up the Hindu >>> >> bullshit I mean... >> >>> May be that should be your new year resolution... >>> >>> Good luck... >>> >>> Oishik >>> >>> P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the >>> >> purposeful use of a >> >>> certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is >>> >> indecent or not)... I >> >>> know we need to confront radicalism with reason... >>> >> and not drivel... but I >> >>> hope to be excused this time... for the sake of >>> >> the holiday season! >> _________________________________________ >> > > > > Do you get hundreds of mails everyday? Delete none. Go to http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_mail_9/*https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/ee74be17/attachment.html From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 02:02:25 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 02:02:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Com Karat's Interview to India Today Message-ID: <98f331e00712261232pd8b007bse6ee7a851acb1dd@mail.gmail.com> This is the actual text of the interview of Com Prakash Karat, Gen Secretary, CPI(M), given to India Today.. P K Ray *Actual Transcript of Question & Answers to India Today's* *Interview with CPI(M) General Secretary, Prakash Karat * * * *Q. 1: Recent discussions on the Indo-US nuclear agreement in Parliament indicated that majority of the MPs are still opposed to the bilateral treaty in its present form. Yet, the UPA Government is engaging with the IAEA on India-specific safeguards. Is the Congress party being unreasonable?* * * *Ans: These are two separate things. The discussion in parliament on the 123 agreement has clearly established that a majority of MPs in both houses are opposed to the agreement in some way or the other. The second issue is about the talks with the IAEA on the India-specific safeguards agreement. Here there was an understanding arrived at in the UPA-Left Committee that the government will go to the IAEA Secretariat for talks on the safeguards agreement. After that, the outcome of the talks will be presented to the committee for its consideration. Since this was a joint decision, we cannot say the Congress is being unreasonable in the matter. Notwithstanding this, it will be better for the government not to proceed with the agreement keeping in mind the views expressed by parliament.* * * *Q. 2: While the Left Front's opposition to the nuclear agreement has been consistence, other political groups such as the NDA or the newly formed UNPA have had their moments of inconsistencies on the subject in past few months. However, it seemed from recent debates in Parliament that all parties opposed to the deal had done their home work on the subject. Was there an informal coordination between the Left and the other parties in Parliament? * * * *Ans: While the stand of the Left parties have been consistent, the NDA and the UNPA have also raised objections to the nuclear deal. I do not think the UNPA has been inconsistent as we had discussed the matter with them and found that we have common views. As for coordination, we have been in constant contact with the major parties in the UNPA on the matter.* * * *Q. 3: The Centre's foreign policy tilt towards the US is problematic for the Left. The CPI(M) and other Left parties have opposed the US' position on Iran but the UPA Government seemed to have ignored that. Is foreign policy an irresolvable issue between the Left and the Congress? * * * *Ans: The CPI(M) and the Left parties are not for forging a strategic alliance with the United States. We expect the government to go by the Common Minimum Programme which talks of pursuing a "closer engagement and relations with the USA" but not a strategic alliance. Both on the Indo-US Defence Framework Agreement and the joint statement issued during the Prime Minister's visit to Washington in July 2005 we have had problems.* * * *On Iran we have been urging the UPA government not to go by the US perceptions. The Bush administration raised the nuclear issue regarding Iran just as it declared Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Now with the National Intelligence Estimate of the US itself saying that Iran had stopped any efforts for the weapons programme in 2003, the Indian government should take heed and review its position. Foreign policy issues were also discussed in the UPA-Left Committee along with the nuclear deal. We hope this will resolve some of the problems.* * * *Q. 4: The Left has been supporting the Congress-led coalition for three and half years now and there have been numerous issues over which both sides clashed. Was 2007 the year of greatest confrontation between the Left and the Congress? * *Q. 5: How did the Left deal with an ideologically opposed partner (Congress) for so long? * * * *Ans. 4 & 5: Support to the Congress-led coalition government has been on the basis of a joint commitment to fight communalism and the government implementing the Common Minimum Programme. There have been differences on economic policies, but we have sought to resolve them within the framework of the Common Minimum Programme. It is true that the nuclear issue became a focal point this year. Throughout this period, we have sought to engage the government in discussions on the nuclear deal despite the media hyping it up to be a great clash. The CPI(M) is clear that the main political and ideological threat stems from the communal ideology and politics. It is on that basis that the Party worked out its electoral line in the May 2004 Lok Sabha elections. While extending support to the Congress-led government, we have not hesitated to demarcate our position on policy matters. This is what was decided in our last Party Congress held in April 2005.* * * *Q. 6: Your party's congress comes up in Coimbatore in end March next year. What's the broad agenda? * * * *Ans: The Party Congress works out the Party's political direction for the next three years. The 19th Congress to be held in Coimbatore next March will discuss the main questions facing the country and the people and the alternative policies that we want to project. For this, our Party Central Committee will be drafting a comprehensive political resolution for discussion within the Party in the run-up to the Congress. We will also have to review the work done in the last three years in a self-critical manner. We shall also discuss the perennial question of how to broaden the base of the Party. In this connection the strengthening of the Party organisation will also be discussed.* * * *Q. 7: Although the CPI(M) has held that coalition experiments of the third front variety remain to succeed in India, you surely want to see a non-Congress, non-BJP third alternative some day. Does the UNPA stand a chance of being supported by the Left should it perform well (as one formation) in the next general elections? * * * *Ans: The CPI(M) looks forward to the formation of a third alternative in the country. But this cannot be seen purely as an electoral alliance. We still strive to get a policy-based platform, which can be distinct from that of the BJP and the Congress.* * * *Q. 8: India is 128th on the Human Development Index of the UN. The urban-rural divide has grown and 77 per cent of Indians cannot spend more than Rs 20 a day. Why are we still in this state after 60 years of Independence? * * * *Alongwith the urban-rural divide growing, we have failed to tackle the serious agrarian crisis. There has been a sharp increase in the social and economic inequalities. The growth that we are experiencing is leading to a huge concentration of wealth. India today boasts of producing the most number of billionaires in Asia. The lesson to be learnt after sixty years of independence is that we have to change the whole trajectory of development.* * * *Q. 9: Has the CPI(M)'s image been hurt by events that unfolded in West Bengal since early this year?* * * *Ans: The incidents in Nandigram and the way they have been projected in the media have caused some damage to our party's image. But we are confident that when the full truth about what has happened there since January 2007 comes out, people outside West Bengal will also understand there has been a political combination to convert the issue into a struggle against the Left Front Government. Eventually, people will understand that Nandigram was not a struggle for land.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071227/2cb74f68/attachment.html From mukherjeesipra at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 11:37:32 2007 From: mukherjeesipra at gmail.com (Sipra mukherjee) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:37:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujarat elections Message-ID: Dear Chanchal and Vedavati, Kindly stop styling yourselves as the self-elected spokespersons for all us hindus. I do NOT agree with what you have to say about India, Hindus or Muslims. Also, that very precise account of "what Hinduism means" given to Oishik was ridiculous to say the least: all Muslim women as our sister,mother, etc so that " when you are abusing us, you must understand that your abuse is bouncing back to your own mother, sister or daughter..." - oh please- if you must spout such rubbish do it in your own name, for your own religion. You, of course, have the right to say whatever you think- even if you don't have the capability for the latter. Just don't drag so many of us other Hindus into it. On 12/26/07, reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote: > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: gujrat election (Vedavati Jogi) > 2. Re: gujrat election (chanchal malviya) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:49:31 +0000 > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > don't you stay in this country? > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: > Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to > African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? > Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each > other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp > who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with > her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who > started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? > Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; < > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > > Sent: Tuesday, > December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find > india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt > karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on > religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal > rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram > temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too > are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not > ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you > know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other > children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped > muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send > your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor > then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept > uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in > various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by > hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are > muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main > stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out > that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in > 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, > will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician > do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the > betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has > been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 > culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these > politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely > secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for > nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of > then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When > you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore > gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin > & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action > against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments > anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, > violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live > in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that > you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity > or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you > have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, > Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a > secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave > reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is > their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 > -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are > facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra > Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be > understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when > Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is > humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist > approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to > their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when > Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything > for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir > or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to > declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver > Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist > and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would > oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and > they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime > is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win > would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular > because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is > secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to > rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God > and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not > justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande > Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I > hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa < > bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my > dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory > is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for > nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 > AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a > defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members > discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for > getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy > with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a > fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost > too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be > you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.Tounsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a > thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > _________________________________________________________________> > Post > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 22:00:26 -0800 (PST) > From: chanchal malviya > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > To: oishiksircar at gmail.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net, Vedavati Jogi > Message-ID: <456103.26335.qm at web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Oishik, > > Who you are I do not know.... But the way you have written to Vedavati is > intolerable... And since you have used your words, now you have hear our > words... and mind it, see our decency in even being vulgar... Read my > reply... > > Let me tell you what Hinduism means - > 1. we consider every women as mother, sister or daughter (other than our > wife)... Hence we consider Muslims women equivalent to our mother... Thus, > when you are abusing us, you must understand that your abuse is bouncing > back to your own mother, sister or daughter... as that is the relation we > own with them all... > > 2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't try > to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... > Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and > misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you > think these are the work of terrorist alone... > > 3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house > worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship > also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create > Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... > God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy > Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... > God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain > peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill > them... God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature > and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the > thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How > will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace > as a humanity... > > I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... I am writing > purely because this is happening... > And let Muslims accept that if Gujarat riot has happened, where both > Hindus and Muslims died... there are these things that are continously > happening.... > > And please please, do not use abuses agains our sisters... This is > provoking and has provoked me to tell all these... > > Best regards, > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Vedavati Jogi > To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; > reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > oishik, > i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent > manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is > correct and it is in the interest of the nation. > > when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this > language, this shows your level. > vedavati > > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: > oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; > vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that > from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... > trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep > doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be > that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: > Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind > of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to > confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be > excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 > AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks > for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> > I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks > I >> have > lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> > Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> > and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me > henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) > sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my > variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain > sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, > there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and > 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each > other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their > sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking > me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember > anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For > you, this 'nation' > may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my > 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at > Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in > 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while > completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and > the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to > time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who > have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' > because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me > and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not > going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or > Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> > imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the > people on this > list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' > were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' > 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is > that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with > this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that > you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want > also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in > Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple > being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not > care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his > livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his > in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me > ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat > descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained > you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can > anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims > know their rights well but they> > never understand their > responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who > had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you > allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri > structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do > you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an > invader. and i don't think> > any > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand > for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor > then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept > uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in > various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by > hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are > muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main > stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out > that > no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 > riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will > dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do > everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the > betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has > been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 > culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these > politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely > secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for > nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of > then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: > Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; > reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does > not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, > hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former > because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't > think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and > torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress > under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are > Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), > you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to > say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots > in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be > aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india > is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> > partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was > here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave > reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they > fooled crores of > bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities > from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir > hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... > all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among > hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi > does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when > person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' > killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is > their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: > bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You > need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a > strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand > that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra > Modi has won it is Hindus who have > won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has > yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. > Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't > you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if > there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and > voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... > Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in > the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is > what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have > intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to > indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them > brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... > the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their > brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the > secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that > 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken > place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what > is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus > believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < > taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the > forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, > there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have > accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also > all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my > dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory > is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for > nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, > 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it > rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS > members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> > communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The > fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins > and evil > loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in > to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: < > reader-list at sarai.net>; > > > Sent: Sunday, December > 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i > hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your > homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< > http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! > Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in > Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 > BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: > an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ > Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 53, Issue 57 > ******************************************* > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-23099 Size: 51617 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071227/38d40b39/attachment.bin From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 15:52:52 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 02:22:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <796663.78987.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All, Why is this happening again and again? I think SARAI itself confused whether it is moderated or administered. If it is moderated then the contents of the every mail should be read and censored then only mail should be published. There should be impartiality in this. If it is administered it is something different again. Regards, dhatri. Vedavati Jogi wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_body.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} see dhatri, my mails need moderator's approval but oshik, arnav's mails don't require this type of approval. great! isn't it. i think we now have to change the definition of 'vulgarity' also. > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > From: reader-list-bounces at mail.sarai.net > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:47:53 +0530 > > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > The reason it is being held: > > Post by non-member to a members-only list > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/d25f5f515de09f04f676659df32b5b09b0a146cc > --------------------------------- Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! --------------------------------- Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071228/2d1dd104/attachment.html From pkray11 at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 23:37:12 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 23:37:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] a story on Dr Binayak Sen Message-ID: <98f331e00712291007m6e943f89v40fdf1a4abda681d@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I came across a heart-touching story on Dr Binayak Sen. Read the story and tell others too. http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=e300b450-c080-431f-b339-cc7ab17594d4&&Headline=Terrorist+or+tireless+doctor%3f regards, Prakash -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071229/ba3ed77a/attachment.html From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 18:52:59 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:52:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My dear Chanchal,I think we ought to, and I am saying ought to because it is very irritating to read statements that are not supported by facts and figures, but emerge out of what we 'believe' is the truth out there. I am sure that when you want to defend 'Hinduism' by pitting it against 'Islam', then you must be slightly scientific (if that is a term I may use) in making your defense. So let's get down to assess the statements that you make on 'women' in 'Hinduism' versus 'women' in 'Islam'. > You have said: > > > "2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't > try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... > Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and > misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you > think these are the work of terrorist alone..." - please give exact > sources which substantiate the statement that you have made. I also need to > research the figures (and if someone on the list can help me), but there are > 'Muslim' women who are being and have been raped in 'Kashmir' by 'Indian' > 'soldiers' and there have been women in Punjab who have been raped by > 'soldiers', 'policemen' during the strife in Punjab and even now under a > wonked version of patriarchy and a belief that women are sexual creatures to > be devoured. There have also been 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' women raped in > various riots across the country, by variously 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' men and > 'women'. > > "3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house > worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship > also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create > Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... > God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy > Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... > God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain > peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill > them... " - please substantiate your statements here too. In Islam, > Prophet Mohammed had only one daughter named Fatima. He chose her as heir > because he wanted to show to the Arab world at that time that women can also > be inheritors. Islam has not said don't respect women, treat them shoddily > from what I know through my limited knowledge of Islam. But 'Islam' is not > just the Quran and if you think so, then you are under delusion. This is > true for 'Hinduism' which is not all the 'books'. Every 'religion' in > material practice takes on different versions and meanings and also adapts > to culture. So for example, my father and grandfather as much worship Laxmi, > do chopra poojan at the time of the Diwali new year because they are traders > and businessmen and yet, they happen to be what you will call them > 'Muslims'. My father's storehouse during the riots was saved from burning > because the mob saw pictures of Durga, Laxmi and Saraswati in there and > thought the store house belonged to a 'Hindu'. If you fail to recognize that > 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' are not homogenous categories, then you will also rant > this way and 'believe' things to be a certain a way. (his office was burnt > down though) Again I am saying, at the cost of being preachy if you may, > that the hatreds in the world outside come from our own insides. Time we did > a bit of soul searching and walking around for some 'fact' finding. > "God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a humanity..." - I think time to do some fact finding about cow and cow slaughter too rather than be slavish to propaganda. I guess the poor in North India, whether "Hindu" or "Muslim", would out of compulsions of weather and poverty eat beef because mutton is too expensive and the weather demands eating fat to keep the body warm in the extreme cold. > > I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... - then blind > ignorance? prejudice which is not the same as hatred? toxic times of india? > In sisterhood, Zainab > > > Best regards, > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Vedavati Jogi > To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; > reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > oishik, > i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent > manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is > correct and it is in the interest of the nation. > > when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this > language, this shows your level. > vedavati > > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: > oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; > vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that > from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... > trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep > doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be > that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: > Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind > of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to > confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be > excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 > AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks > for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> > I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks > I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also > ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his > sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak > with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee > pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall > also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they > have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by > the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose > kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against > each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their > sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking > me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember > anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For > you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of > Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of > the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be > situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place > while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' > and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time > to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours > who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' > because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me > and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not > going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or > Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> > imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the > people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if > 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with > mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? > And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly > disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that > Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You > might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the > riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a > temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father > could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared > about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no > position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar > is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked > Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained > you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can > anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims > know their rights well but they> > never understand their > responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who > had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you > allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri > structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do > you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an > invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride > for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated > child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular > schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to > govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then > complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... > hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim > women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own > personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are > many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims > and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination > just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which > separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you > have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those > hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> > muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake > of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will > dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try > to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you > want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu > sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat > election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> > he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does > not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to > take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not > hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments > left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed > and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each > day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that > is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment > or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' > who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the > judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed > violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that > doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful > and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, > they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On > Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular > country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise > 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to > stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their > daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting > 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule > after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few > thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> > >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> > like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary > background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left > parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam > khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might > hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he > talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt > muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & > likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking > temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they > create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have > talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> > granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are > facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra > Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be > understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when > Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is > humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist > approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to > their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when > Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything > for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir > or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to > declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver > Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist > and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose > what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they > should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to > be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would > be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because > it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. > we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that > wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle > them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to > rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God > and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not > justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> > start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start > respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join > the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its > meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have > taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to > realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their > month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win > is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message > ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < > taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the > forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, > there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have > accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to > understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. > Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the > formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash < > taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu > forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with > Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son > murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the > results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight > between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost > too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be > you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; < > tapasrayx at gmail.com >> > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye > opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide > hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your > homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< > http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! > Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in > Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 > BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > 416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ > Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-465837 Size: 34636 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/adcb0029/attachment.bin From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 07:47:28 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 07:47:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My dear Chanchal,I think we ought to, and I am saying ought to because it is very irritating to read statements that are not supported by facts and figures, but emerge out of what we 'believe' is the truth out there. I am sure that when you want to defend 'Hinduism' by pitting it against 'Islam', then you must be slightly scientific (if that is a term I may use) in making your defense. So let's get down to assess the statements that you make on 'women' in 'Hinduism' versus 'women' in 'Islam'. > You have said: > > > "2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't > try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... > Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and > misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you > think these are the work of terrorist alone... " - please give exact > sources which substantiate the statement that you have made. I also need to > research the figures (and if someone on the list can help me), but there are > 'Muslim' women who are being and have been raped in 'Kashmir' by 'Indian' > 'soldiers' and there have been women in Punjab who have been raped by > 'soldiers', 'policemen' during the strife in Punjab and even now under a > wonked version of patriarchy and a belief that women are sexual creatures to > be devoured. There have also been 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' women raped in > various riots across the country, by variously 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' men and > 'women'. > > "3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house > worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship > also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create > Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... > God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy > Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... > God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain > peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill > them... " - please substantiate your statements here too. In Islam, > Prophet Mohammed had only one daughter named Fatima. He chose her as heir > because he wanted to show to the Arab world at that time that women can also > be inheritors. Islam has not said don't respect women, treat them shoddily > from what I know through my limited knowledge of Islam. But 'Islam' is not > just the Quran and if you think so, then you are under delusion. This is > true for 'Hinduism' which is not all the 'books'. Every 'religion' in > material practice takes on different versions and meanings and also adapts > to culture. So for example, my father and grandfather as much worship Laxmi, > do chopra poojan at the time of the Diwali new year because they are traders > and businessmen and yet, they happen to be what you will call them > 'Muslims'. My father's storehouse during the riots was saved from burning > because the mob saw pictures of Durga, Laxmi and Saraswati in there and > thought the store house belonged to a 'Hindu'. If you fail to recognize that > 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' are not homogenous categories, then you will also rant > this way and 'believe' things to be a certain a way. (his office was burnt > down though) Again I am saying, at the cost of being preachy if you may, > that the hatreds in the world outside come from our own insides. Time we did > a bit of soul searching and walking around for some 'fact' finding. > "God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a humanity..." - I think time to do some fact finding about cow and cow slaughter too rather than be slavish to propaganda. I guess the poor in North India, whether "Hindu" or "Muslim", would out of compulsions of weather and poverty eat beef because mutton is too expensive and the weather demands eating fat to keep the body warm in the extreme cold. > > I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... - then blind > ignorance? prejudice which is not the same as hatred? toxic times of india? > In sisterhood, Zainab > > > Best regards, > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Vedavati Jogi > To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; > reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > oishik, > i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent > manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is > correct and it is in the interest of the nation. > > when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this > language, this shows your level. > vedavati > > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: > oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; > vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that > from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... > trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep > doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be > that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: > Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind > of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to > confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be > excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 > AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks > for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> > I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks > I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also > ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his > sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak > with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee > pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall > also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they > have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by > the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose > kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against > each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their > sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking > me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember > anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For > you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of > Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of > the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be > situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place > while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' > and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time > to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours > who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' > because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me > and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not > going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or > Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> > imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the > people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if > 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with > mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? > And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly > disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that > Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You > might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the > riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a > temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father > could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared > about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no > position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar > is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked > Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained > you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can > anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims > know their rights well but they> > never understand their > responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who > had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you > allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri > structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do > you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an > invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride > for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated > child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular > schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to > govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then > complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... > hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim > women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own > personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are > many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims > and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination > just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which > separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you > have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those > hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> > muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake > of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will > dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try > to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you > want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu > sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat > election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> > he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does > not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to > take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not > hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments > left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed > and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each > day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that > is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment > or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' > who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the > judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed > violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that > doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful > and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, > they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On > Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular > country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise > 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to > stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their > daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting > 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule > after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few > thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> > >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> > like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary > background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left > parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam > khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might > hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he > talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt > muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & > likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking > temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they > create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have > talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> > granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are > facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra > Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be > understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when > Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is > humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist > approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to > their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when > Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything > for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir > or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to > declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver > Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist > and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose > what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they > should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to > be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would > be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because > it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. > we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that > wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle > them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to > rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God > and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not > justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> > start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start > respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join > the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its > meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have > taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to > realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their > month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win > is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message > ----> > From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com >> > To: TaraPrakash < > taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the > forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, > there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have > accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to > understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. > Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the > formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash < > taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu > forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with > Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son > murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the > results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight > between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost > too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be > you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] > gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is > a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a > victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you > gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu > vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your > homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< > http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! > Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK > SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 > Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > 416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-81579 Size: 34397 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071227/488414ad/attachment.bin From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 11:12:14 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:12:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <891626.30075.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <891626.30075.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My dear Chanchal, I stopped reading your email mid-way because all that it contains are rant and ranting. I am going reiterate a few points and close our conversation here because you are the one who does not seem to want to listen and you have clearly defined your position rather than reflecting on the exchanges that we have had. On the contrary you are ordering me all across your email to 'listen' which I read as intense anger and hatred and a non-listening position on your part: 1). Religion is not books. If you are going to quote constantly from Quran and Bible and Vedas and Geeta and what not, you are frozen in some imagined past and time. 2). "Hindu" and "Muslim" and "Christian" and "Jew" and whatever else are not religious categories, but social and cultural constructs. In my postings on the city in the past, I have tried to raise attention to this point that "Muslim" is a material practice located in the social, political and cultural context. Therefore, a "Ratnagiri Muslim" might be more similar to a "Ratnagiri Hindu" than being anywhere found in the Quran or the imagined understanding of "Islam". You can go on quoting surah on surah from the Quran and it will not make a difference to my skin because 'religion' is not the primary identity that I wear on myself. I am more than being 'Muslim'. Courage does not lie in accepting what you call 'hard facts'. It lies in self-reflexivity. Maybe some dosage of hard liquor is good to accept your 'hard' facts, which actually will go down well with the meat. Cheers and all the best, Zainab P.S. On your Hindu-Muslim, bhai and mai formulation, I have to tell my 'Hindu' 'Bengali' brother-in-law that we cannot be 'bhai-behen' and also tell my 'Hindu' 'Brahmin' 'Telugu' boyfriend that we cannot have any relationship. Will get back to you personally on that once I have heard from both of them. On Dec 30, 2007 9:34 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > Listen, what happens in riot is a different story. More than 1000 Muslims > enclosing the train with weapons and burning more than 60 Hindus alive > including children and women, is what caused Gujarat Riot. So, riot is a > reaction and I agree even during Riot abuse of women is not acceptable by > any means - if that has happened by a Hindu he is not a Hindu. > Unlike this, we find Muslims simply taking actions against Hindu for > following reasons > - Hindu worshipping Idols > - Hindu worshipping Cows > - Hindu philosophy of God as manifestation > - Quran teaches to destroy Hindus (Idol worshippers) and destroy with > all harshness that is possible... > > Now think again, before asking me for proof. Because next I will start > quoting the Surah directly from the most authenticated Quran. > > In Hinduism eating meat is categorized as Tamasika activity.. Hinduism is > not a religion, as it don't talk about religion at all... It talks about man > kind.. and hence non of the Hindu book contains name of any religion (not > even Hindu).... So, Muslims way of life is simply Tamasika according to Life > Science... > > As far as heat is concerned, let me tell you - all the saints of Hindus > (those who are not cheaters) live in Himalays at temperatures less than -10 > deg C, with the strength of Yoga... They eat raw vegetarian food (un cooked) > and they emerge out with tremendous knowledge to share with the people of > any nation... Have courage to listen to them.. they do not talk religion > (Unlike Mullahs whom I have often listed in Peace TV)... Hindu saints talk > about social health, moral strength, personality development, healthy > living, and true concept of God in depth.... > > There is a basic difference in what you say and what you do... > If we pet cow, we worship them for their usefulness... > If you pet goat, your children even participate in ruthlessly killing it > on Bakrid... > > If we carve Stones, we create God out of it (beauty our of dullness).. > If you carve Stones, you create Shaitan out of it (pelting of stones at > mecca)... > > Now since so many years, Hindu temples are demolished in all Islamic > regions inlcuding Kashmir (all Muslim countries).. Now don't ask > authenticity of it.. the world knows it and many news channel have > highlighted this including News channel of Pak.. > Barring Babri (where from 50 years Namaj was not being read), how many > cases do you know of Hindu demolishing Mosques, when the reality is that > most of the Mosques are build on Temples and in some Mosques it is even > written that it is built on temple... If you require data, I will give you > with pride.. > > Listen... 1000 years of love extended by Hindus have failed to convert > Muslims... and there is no doubt about this that Muslims simply are heading > towards majority where they can treat Hindus as they are doing in their > country.. > Muslims do not consider India as their nation - they never come out to say > Jai Hind, Vande Matram.. > > And Muslims cannot be a brother of Hindus.. > > Bachpan se suna hai, Hindu Muslims bhai bhai > Arey mere bhai, jab tune mere Mai ko kat ke khai to kaisa bhai... > > Muslims have already gained the reputation of terrorist throughout the > world... They have yet to prove peace and love.. > And I know, they will never.. because Quran teaches to kill and kill with > brutality.. > There is no tolerance in that religion... > > This is a hard fact... words cannot protect this... > > Anyway, again this is not hatred... Pick up History and explore the > reasons with Muslim majority... and you will yourself know the truth... > > Rapes and murders in Hinduism is Crime and law directly deals with it... > Unlike Muslim where a father in law rapes her daughter in law (Imrana case > for example) and Muslim law make the girl wife of father in law... no > punishment.. just award the women... > What riot took place in Kashmir that around 1 lakh Hindu women are being > used in Harem... > Shall I quote from Quran what a Muslim is taught about Jannat (beautiful > women for never ending sexual pleasure) and Killing Hindus would what > provide them Jannat... > > Listen, have courage to accept truth.. have courage to say what is there > in your Quran.. Have courage to accept that it is Quran that is creating > Terrorists and it the same Quran that terrorists are being supported by > common Muslim population (simply proven because no Muslim ever comes out to > protest against Terrorism)... Have courage to say at least what is there > in Quran, after all it is what you read and worship... Do not hide away > from reality of Quran... If you wish I can start quoting your Quran... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal malviya > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 7:47:28 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > My dear Chanchal, I think we ought to, and I am saying ought to because it > is very irritating to read statements that are not supported by facts and > figures, but emerge out of what we 'believe' is the truth out there. I am > sure that when you want to defend 'Hinduism' by pitting it against 'Islam', > then you must be slightly scientific (if that is a term I may use) in making > your defense. So let's get down to assess the statements that you make on > 'women' in 'Hinduism' versus 'women' in 'Islam'. > > > > You have said: > > > > > > > > "2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't > > try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... > > Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and > > misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you > > think these are the work of terrorist alone... " - please give exact > > sources which substantiate the statement that you have made. I also need to > > research the figures (and if someone on the list can help me), but there are > > 'Muslim' women who are being and have been raped in 'Kashmir' by 'Indian' > > 'soldiers' and there have been women in Punjab who have been raped by > > 'soldiers', 'policemen' during the strife in Punjab and even now under a > > wonked version of patriarchy and a belief that women are sexual creatures to > > be devoured. There have also been 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' women raped in > > various riots across the country, by variously 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' men and > > 'women'. > > > > "3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house > > worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship > > also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create > > Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... > > God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy > > Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... > > God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain > > peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill > > them... " - please substantiate your statements here too. In Islam, > > Prophet Mohammed had only one daughter named Fatima. He chose her as heir > > because he wanted to show to the Arab world at that time that women can also > > be inheritors. Islam has not said don't respect women, treat them shoddily > > from what I know through my limited knowledge of Islam. But 'Islam' is not > > just the Quran and if you think so, then you are under delusion. This is > > true for 'Hinduism' which is not all the 'books'. Every 'religion' in > > material practice takes on different versions and meanings and also adapts > > to culture. So for example, my father and grandfather as much worship Laxmi, > > do chopra poojan at the time of the Diwali new year because they are traders > > and businessmen and yet, they happen to be what you will call them > > 'Muslims'. My father's storehouse during the riots was saved from burning > > because the mob saw pictures of Durga, Laxmi and Saraswati in there and > > thought the store house belonged to a 'Hindu'. If you fail to recognize that > > 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' are not homogenous categories, then you will also rant > > this way and 'believe' things to be a certain a way. (his office was burnt > > down though) Again I am saying, at the cost of being preachy if you may, > > that the hatreds in the world outside come from our own insides. Time we did > > a bit of soul searching and walking around for some 'fact' finding. > > > > "God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and > ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought > driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will > they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a > humanity..." - I think time to do some fact finding about cow and cow > slaughter too rather than be slavish to propaganda. I guess the poor in > North India, whether "Hindu" or "Muslim", would out of compulsions of > weather and poverty eat beef because mutton is too expensive and the weather > demands eating fat to keep the body warm in the extreme cold. > > > > > I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... - then blind > > ignorance? prejudice which is not the same as hatred? toxic times of india? > > > > In sisterhood, > > Zainab > > > > > > > Best regards, > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; > > bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > oishik, > > i have every right to express my views and i always express them in > > decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is > > correct and it is in the interest of the nation. > > > > when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this > > language, this shows your level. > > vedavati > > > > > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: > > oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; > > vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink > > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take > > that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... > > trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep > > doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be > > that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: > > Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind > > of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to > > confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be > > excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 > > AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks > > for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> > > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> > > I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks > > I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also > > ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his > > sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak > > with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee > > pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall > > also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they > > have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by > > the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose > > kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against > > each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their > > sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking > > me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember > > anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For > > you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of > > Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of > > the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be > > situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place > > while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' > > and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time > > to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours > > who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' > > because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me > > and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not > > going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or > > Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> > > imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the > > people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if > > 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with > > mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? > > And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly > > disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that > > Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. > > You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused > > the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with > > a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father > > could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared > > about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no > > position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar > > is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked > > Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has > > detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you > > can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, > > muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their > > responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims > > were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was > > is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did > > you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > > > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why > > do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an > > invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride > > for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated > > child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular > > schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to > > govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then > > complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... > > hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim > > women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own > > personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are > > many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims > > and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination > > just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which > > separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you > > have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those > > hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> > > muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake > > of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will > > dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try > > to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you > > want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu > > sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > To: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear > > Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks > > about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > > > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > > > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > > > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the > > judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed > > violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that > > doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful > > and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, > > they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On > > Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > > > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular > > country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise > > 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to > > stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their > > daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting > > 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule > > after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few > > thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> > > >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> > > like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > > > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary > > background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left > > parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam > > khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > > muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might > > hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he > > talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > > stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt > > muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & > > likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking > > temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they > > create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have > > talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> > > granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > > > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> > > >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who > > are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, > > when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > > > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their > > nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything > > related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by > > Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout > > like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about > > Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims > > will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic > > followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world > > realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. > > Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you > > think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if > > there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and > > voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... > > Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in > > the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is > > what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have > > intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to > > indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them > > brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... > > the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their > > brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the > > secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that > > 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken > > place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what > > is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus > > believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa < > > bawazainab79 at gmail.com >> > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>> > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still > > a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as > > for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the > > country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are > > not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize > > for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, > > apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:> >> > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> > > ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > > > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or > > pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > > > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. > > Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before > > putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- > > Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > > > To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com >> > > Sent: > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a > > victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a > > victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you > > gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu > > vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: > > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > > > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your > > homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN > > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< > > http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! > > Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > > header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK > > SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 > > Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > 416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an > > open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To > > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > > in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-5 Size: 49561 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071230/d384fcf4/attachment.bin From vadhimoolam at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 19:28:53 2007 From: vadhimoolam at gmail.com (Vetrivel Adhimoolam) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:58:53 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <93D1A9BFB1D84ADA9FAA726576A5B773@vetrivel> I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing that a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist forces. The return of barbarism. ----- Original Message ----- From: chanchal malviya To: Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net Cc: sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and girls around in the name freedom. 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, separating people from people. 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a ver fast pace 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare the nation as Islamic state 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands through local Muslims 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated children of careless parents. 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both area. 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work for India 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our own country. 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to achieve this nation as a group. There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. Jai Hind, ----- Original Message ---- From: Vedavati Jogi To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election what is meant by 'your beloved' country? don't you stay in this country? is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > _________________________________________________________________> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/da0aa319/attachment.html From vrjogi at hotmail.com Wed Dec 26 20:47:43 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:17:43 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: don't pay any attention chanchal. when they can't prove their views logically they start abusing others. these socalled seculars and liberals are most intolerant people. their vulgar writings show their 'level'. i have experienced it earlier also, but it really did not make any difference for me. Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 22:00:26 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comCC: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net Oishik, Who you are I do not know.... But the way you have written to Vedavati is intolerable... And since you have used your words, now you have hear our words... and mind it, see our decency in even being vulgar... Read my reply... Let me tell you what Hinduism means - 1. we consider every women as mother, sister or daughter (other than our wife)... Hence we consider Muslims women equivalent to our mother... Thus, when you are abusing us, you must understand that your abuse is bouncing back to your own mother, sister or daughter... as that is the relation we own with them all... 2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you think these are the work of terrorist alone... 3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill them... God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a humanity... I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... I am writing purely because this is happening... And let Muslims accept that if Gujarat riot has happened, where both Hindus and Muslims died... there are these things that are continously happening.... And please please, do not use abuses agains our sisters... This is provoking and has provoked me to tell all these... Best regards, ----- Original Message ----From: Vedavati Jogi To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.netSent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionoishik,i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level.vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stinkOn 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________________________________Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.inhttp://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/b20d6c56/attachment.html From vrjogi at hotmail.com Wed Dec 26 20:55:47 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:25:47 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: see chanchal, my mails need moderator's approval but oshik, arnav's mails don't require this type of approval. great! isn't it. i think we now have to change the definition of 'vulgarity' also. > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval> From: reader-list-bounces at mail.sarai.net> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:47:53 +0530> > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject> > RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.> > The reason it is being held:> > Post by non-member to a members-only list> > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive> notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel> this posting, please visit the following URL:> > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/d25f5f515de09f04f676659df32b5b09b0a146cc> _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/505236d2/attachment.html From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 11:14:18 2007 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:44:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <307283.65691.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> First of all, I am sorry if you are feeling that my speech was like an order with the usage of word 'Listen' I used it because I felt you have not read my article in totality or you are not answering what I had quoted... But let us not be misguided by what you are or what I am... Question and discussion here is not about one or two Muslims who have the gut to think beyond Quran.. My say that I would quote Quran was for those who live within Quranic boundary and owe some kind of terrorised mentality... Anyway, I agree to your point of Religion and extend it further to say that Religions are also Regional, both having boundaries and both correct or wrong in their own region. Hence imposition of Islam and Christianity in India was across the Region and here lies the reason for big fight... India has its own environmental conditions that gave birth to Sanatan Dharma (which nowhere talks about Religion at all unlike all other religions which talks only religion)... and that was correct and peaceful for people of this region... And that is what I am supporting and fighting for... and let me put my points what was the culture here, which need to be regained if India has to see peace again: 1. Vegetarianism was widely accepted dietary practice 2. Disciplined life (Getting up early, doing Yoga, in time eating habits, etc) was a practice of Ashram arrangement 3. Purity of food cultivation through natural fertilizers 4. Respect towards every elder, care for parents in their old age 5. commitment towards married partners with love and highest regard towards each other 6. Tinkle of Temple and Sweetness of Bhajans in Morning and Evening, keeping people highly peaceful 7. High philosophical and intellectual thinking 8. Business organization under Varna Arrangement are few to name... This is what India was... and this is what India need to be again... This has nothing to do with Development of the Nation... Development and technology growth can go in parallel... But the life science of India has to be in Indian only... It should not be American or Arabic... This is against nature and creating disbalance here... I am a firm believer that Terrorist cannot exist in any country unless they are supported by common Muslims... And all blasts taking place is a cordial effort of common Muslim population... Now I don't mean again that 100% of them... I simply mean, a common Muslim attitude to support this... they many not be directly involved in this... they may be even ignorant on this... but when it comes to they contributing to this, they are one... No doubt, Muslim is the most hated religion of the world now.. No doubt, whether it is east or west, Terrorist are give of Islam alone... In all other religion, notorious people are termed Criminals and dealt with law... But we never find Muslim protesting Terrorism anywhere in the world... and this is the true picture of a common Muslim... This is not my hatred...this is my concern... Because Muslim live with a fact that Mohammad was the last Prophet, which means they are ready to meet the end.. they belive in Judgement Day... and they are heading towards that... with all rules asking them to kill those who are not with them... The very belief that Quran is the last words, reflects that they will not allow the world to grow further and they will eventually demand end of everything... May God save the world... May our common Muslim brothers come out of this hard boundary of game of death... May they show some courage to respect the feelings of Hindus that lie in Cows... May they come out to join hands with Hindus and say Jai Hind and Vande Matram... May they come out with Solgans saying 'Terrorist - leave India'... May God save the world... ----- Original Message ---- From: Zainab Bawa To: chanchal malviya ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 11:12:14 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election My dear Chanchal, I stopped reading your email mid-way because all that it contains are rant and ranting. I am going reiterate a few points and close our conversation here because you are the one who does not seem to want to listen and you have clearly defined your position rather than reflecting on the exchanges that we have had. On the contrary you are ordering me all across your email to 'listen' which I read as intense anger and hatred and a non-listening position on your part: 1). Religion is not books. If you are going to quote constantly from Quran and Bible and Vedas and Geeta and what not, you are frozen in some imagined past and time. 2). "Hindu" and "Muslim" and "Christian" and "Jew" and whatever else are not religious categories, but social and cultural constructs. In my postings on the city in the past, I have tried to raise attention to this point that "Muslim" is a material practice located in the social, political and cultural context. Therefore, a "Ratnagiri Muslim" might be more similar to a "Ratnagiri Hindu" than being anywhere found in the Quran or the imagined understanding of "Islam". You can go on quoting surah on surah from the Quran and it will not make a difference to my skin because 'religion' is not the primary identity that I wear on myself. I am more than being 'Muslim'. Courage does not lie in accepting what you call 'hard facts'. It lies in self-reflexivity. Maybe some dosage of hard liquor is good to accept your 'hard' facts, which actually will go down well with the meat. Cheers and all the best, Zainab P.S. On your Hindu-Muslim, bhai and mai formulation, I have to tell my 'Hindu' 'Bengali' brother-in-law that we cannot be 'bhai-behen' and also tell my 'Hindu' 'Brahmin' 'Telugu' boyfriend that we cannot have any relationship. Will get back to you personally on that once I have heard from both of them. On Dec 30, 2007 9:34 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: Listen, what happens in riot is a different story. More than 1000 Muslims enclosing the train with weapons and burning more than 60 Hindus alive including children and women, is what caused Gujarat Riot. So, riot is a reaction and I agree even during Riot abuse of women is not acceptable by any means - if that has happened by a Hindu he is not a Hindu. Unlike this, we find Muslims simply taking actions against Hindu for following reasons - Hindu worshipping Idols - Hindu worshipping Cows - Hindu philosophy of God as manifestation - Quran teaches to destroy Hindus (Idol worshippers) and destroy with all harshness that is possible... Now think again, before asking me for proof. Because next I will start quoting the Surah directly from the most authenticated Quran. In Hinduism eating meat is categorized as Tamasika activity.. Hinduism is not a religion, as it don't talk about religion at all... It talks about man kind.. and hence non of the Hindu book contains name of any religion (not even Hindu).... So, Muslims way of life is simply Tamasika according to Life Science... As far as heat is concerned, let me tell you - all the saints of Hindus (those who are not cheaters) live in Himalays at temperatures less than -10 deg C, with the strength of Yoga... They eat raw vegetarian food (un cooked) and they emerge out with tremendous knowledge to share with the people of any nation... Have courage to listen to them.. they do not talk religion (Unlike Mullahs whom I have often listed in Peace TV)... Hindu saints talk about social health, moral strength, personality development, healthy living, and true concept of God in depth.... There is a basic difference in what you say and what you do... If we pet cow, we worship them for their usefulness... If you pet goat, your children even participate in ruthlessly killing it on Bakrid... If we carve Stones, we create God out of it (beauty our of dullness).. If you carve Stones, you create Shaitan out of it (pelting of stones at mecca)... Now since so many years, Hindu temples are demolished in all Islamic regions inlcuding Kashmir (all Muslim countries).. Now don't ask authenticity of it.. the world knows it and many news channel have highlighted this including News channel of Pak.. Barring Babri (where from 50 years Namaj was not being read), how many cases do you know of Hindu demolishing Mosques, when the reality is that most of the Mosques are build on Temples and in some Mosques it is even written that it is built on temple... If you require data, I will give you with pride.. Listen... 1000 years of love extended by Hindus have failed to convert Muslims... and there is no doubt about this that Muslims simply are heading towards majority where they can treat Hindus as they are doing in their country.. Muslims do not consider India as their nation - they never come out to say Jai Hind, Vande Matram.. And Muslims cannot be a brother of Hindus.. Bachpan se suna hai, Hindu Muslims bhai bhai Arey mere bhai, jab tune mere Mai ko kat ke khai to kaisa bhai... Muslims have already gained the reputation of terrorist throughout the world... They have yet to prove peace and love.. And I know, they will never.. because Quran teaches to kill and kill with brutality.. There is no tolerance in that religion... This is a hard fact... words cannot protect this... Anyway, again this is not hatred... Pick up History and explore the reasons with Muslim majority... and you will yourself know the truth... Rapes and murders in Hinduism is Crime and law directly deals with it... Unlike Muslim where a father in law rapes her daughter in law (Imrana case for example) and Muslim law make the girl wife of father in law... no punishment.. just award the women... What riot took place in Kashmir that around 1 lakh Hindu women are being used in Harem... Shall I quote from Quran what a Muslim is taught about Jannat (beautiful women for never ending sexual pleasure) and Killing Hindus would what provide them Jannat... Listen, have courage to accept truth.. have courage to say what is there in your Quran.. Have courage to accept that it is Quran that is creating Terrorists and it the same Quran that terrorists are being supported by common Muslim population (simply proven because no Muslim ever comes out to protest against Terrorism)... Have courage to say at least what is there in Quran, after all it is what you read and worship... Do not hide away from reality of Quran... If you wish I can start quoting your Quran... ----- Original Message ---- From: Zainab Bawa To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal malviya < chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 7:47:28 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election My dear Chanchal, I think we ought to, and I am saying ought to because it is very irritating to read statements that are not supported by facts and figures, but emerge out of what we 'believe' is the truth out there. I am sure that when you want to defend 'Hinduism' by pitting it against 'Islam', then you must be slightly scientific (if that is a term I may use) in making your defense. So let's get down to assess the statements that you make on 'women' in 'Hinduism' versus 'women' in 'Islam'. You have said: "2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you think these are the work of terrorist alone... " - please give exact sources which substantiate the statement that you have made. I also need to research the figures (and if someone on the list can help me), but there are 'Muslim' women who are being and have been raped in 'Kashmir' by 'Indian' 'soldiers' and there have been women in Punjab who have been raped by 'soldiers', 'policemen' during the strife in Punjab and even now under a wonked version of patriarchy and a belief that women are sexual creatures to be devoured. There have also been 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' women raped in various riots across the country, by variously 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' men and 'women'. "3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill them... " - please substantiate your statements here too. In Islam, Prophet Mohammed had only one daughter named Fatima. He chose her as heir because he wanted to show to the Arab world at that time that women can also be inheritors. Islam has not said don't respect women, treat them shoddily from what I know through my limited knowledge of Islam. But 'Islam' is not just the Quran and if you think so, then you are under delusion. This is true for 'Hinduism' which is not all the 'books'. Every 'religion' in material practice takes on different versions and meanings and also adapts to culture. So for example, my father and grandfather as much worship Laxmi, do chopra poojan at the time of the Diwali new year because they are traders and businessmen and yet, they happen to be what you will call them 'Muslims'. My father's storehouse during the riots was saved from burning because the mob saw pictures of Durga, Laxmi and Saraswati in there and thought the store house belonged to a 'Hindu'. If you fail to recognize that 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' are not homogenous categories, then you will also rant this way and 'believe' things to be a certain a way. (his office was burnt down though) Again I am saying, at the cost of being preachy if you may, that the hatreds in the world outside come from our own insides. Time we did a bit of soul searching and walking around for some 'fact' finding. "God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a humanity..." - I think time to do some fact finding about cow and cow slaughter too rather than be slavish to propaganda. I guess the poor in North India, whether "Hindu" or "Muslim", would out of compulsions of weather and poverty eat beef because mutton is too expensive and the weather demands eating fat to keep the body warm in the extreme cold. I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... - then blind ignorance? prejudice which is not the same as hatred? toxic times of india? In sisterhood, Zainab Best regards, ----- Original Message ---- From: Vedavati Jogi To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election oishik, i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level. vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com> wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com >> > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com >> > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071230/aaa4c561/attachment.html From vivek at sarai.net Wed Dec 26 18:50:53 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:50:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: [Poem of the week] BELIEFS] Message-ID: <47725535.1060409@sarai.net> Well... In spite of all the darkness now, and the darkness to come-- happy new year, happy festive season. Vivek BELIEFS / after Kristin Dimitrova/ // Old people say that whenever someone lights a cigarette from a candle a sailor dies. Among sailors, I suppose, there is a belief that when they shave in a odd direction, an academic dies. So they try not to shave. The point is that we think About each other. © 2005, Gregory O'Donoghue Poem of the Week: http://ireland.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=10613 Gregory O'Donoghue page: http://ireland.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=10611 From sudeshna.kca at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 16:47:21 2007 From: sudeshna.kca at gmail.com (Sudeshna Chatterjee) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:47:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] CYE Journal just published: 18 new papers, 8 book reviews, 2 film reviews Message-ID: <3ef603b70712290317i1bb1d109kf905a0bbff50e04d@mail.gmail.com> The final issue of volume 17 of the CYE Journal is now available online: http://www.colorado.edu/journals/cye/. It includes 18 papers, eight book reviews and two film reviews. This past year, the CYE Journal published more than 100 papers. Readers tallied more than 250,000 independent sessions, logged into the CYE website. Downloads averaged more than 400 per day. Clearly, the CYE Journal is meeting a demand. Access is still free. Our appeal for contributions has met with some success (see http://www.colorado.edu/journals/cye/support/friendsandsupporters.htm). We thank those of you who sent us money. However, funding remains well short of hard costs. We need additional support to be able to continue to provide free access. If you have not yet gotten around to sending a (tax-deductible) contribution, we still need your help and welcome support at any level. REQUEST: If you are affiliated with an institution that has a library, PLEASE, COMPLETE THE FORM AT THE URL FOUND BELOW AND SEND IT TO YOUR LIBRARIAN! Librarians often decide based on recommendations. More institutional support will go a long way towards making it possible to continue to provide free access to those who cannot afford a subscription. http://www.colorado.edu/journals/cye/announcements/JournalRF.pdf Thank you and best wishes for the New Year! - The Editors Louise Chawla Fahriye Sancar Willem van Vliet- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __._,_.___ Messages in this topic ( 1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages| Links| Database| Polls| Calendar MARKETPLACE ------------------------------ Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree- College-Finder.net. [image: Yahoo! Groups] Change settings via the Web(Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest| Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Visit Your Group Y! Messenger Instant hello Chat over IM with group members. Real Food Group Share recipes and favorite meals w/ Real Food lovers. Yahoo! Groups Parenting Zone Share experiences with other parents. . __,_._,___ -- Sudeshna Chatterjee, PhD Partner, Kaimal Chatterjee & Associates New Delhi, India -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071229/784f23f5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From asitredsalute at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 12:08:39 2007 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 12:08:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... In-Reply-To: <00ae01c84678$af50ff40$6602a8c0@taraprakash> References: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> <00ae01c84678$af50ff40$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: dear freinds ithink we should have a proper perspective on fundamentalism and communalism then we can have a stragy to fight it they thrive in backward conciousness ness that is precapitalist premodern consciosness the matirial basis of wchich is fudalism thr indian bourgise failed to carry out the democratic revolution in india so they have failed to establish either liberalism or secularism becuse we dint have a antichurch struggle or a french revolution unlike europe all our ruling class parties thrive on backward conciousness the indian capitalists have struck an alliance with the fudal forces the basic problem with the indian organised left is that they exepct congress a soft communal landlordbougoise party to fight communalism this the biggest delusion communalism cant be extrapolated feom neolibarilsm and fuedalism the congress doesnt have the class character to fight this the battle against communalism can only be fought if we strike against the matirial base wchich gives rise to obscurantist communal and patriarchal consciousness thatis to fight communalism we have to raise a struggle against feudalism patriarchy and neolibarilism and that means we shouls struggle for landreforms wchich will demolish the matirial bais of fuedalism and have a organised struggle against relgios orthodoxy patriarchy etc and that is the mandate of the organised left and the womens movement it is foolish to ride piggyback on congress asit On Dec 25, 2007 3:32 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > We must not give up hope no matter what the electoral efforts result in. > The atmosphere of terror has helped CPI (M) to survive in power in West > Bengal for a long time, Modi might survive for a long time too. But let us > not presume that there is no light at the end of this dark tunnel. From > Naroda Patia to Nandi Gram the state sponsored terrorism has been > successful > to browbeat the voters in to submission, but the struggle must go on. > All dictators have seen their last days, and those in India are not > invincible too. > The faded red powers will soon have to go. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "prakash ray" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 3:54 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... > > > > The BJP has won the assembly elections in Gujarat. The results show > that > > where the impact of communal politics is deep, electoral efforts alone > are > > insufficient to defeat the communal forces. What is required is a > > determined and uncompromising struggle against the communal ideology of > > Hindutva and the capacity to launch sustained struggles of all sections > of > > the people who suffered from the rightwing economic policies of the > Modi > > government. > > > > Prakash > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071227/a63f3a5e/attachment.html From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 20:15:15 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:15:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ek theee Missis Bhuttto.. Message-ID: <47e122a70712310645h3baf97e7uebe4b09499194c49@mail.gmail.com> happy new year to all with love is -- please click to read and see some... http://indersalim.livejournal.com From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 07:39:40 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:09:40 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <030901c848f6$b54ce7d0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Nice to be back again on the list. Don't know how I got unsubscribed and my messages started getting bounced. So here is one of them forwarded again. Regards ----- Original Message ----- From: TaraPrakash To: Kshmendra Kaul ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Kshmendra. The first major attack on the democracy in India, I believe, came in the form of the emergency imposed by Indira Gandhi. Of course, there were certain supporters of the emergency and there still are some, but for the first time Congress was voted out of the power in the center. Very soon, however, the elections had to be held again which resulted in congress coming back. It did not mean that people had forgiven Indira Gandhi for the attrocities commited during the emergency. But people did not have any solid alternative. Electoral victory does not always mean that people have given you a clean chit. The party which was alternative to Modi's winning party was no better in the opinion of the voters in Gujarat. Supporting Congress might have been interpreted as a support to the policies of the center government run by the Congress. So may be you should take Modi's victory as rejection of the policies of the central government by the people of Gujarat. Don't forget that the way Congress had organized its election campaign, it was depending on the high command more than the local leaders. But, of course, you are free to have your opinion and believe that people were actually mesmerized by Modi. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 4:17 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash I already accepted your earlier stated clarification that you do not want to homogenise. I am now trying to make sense of what "exactly" you meant. So let me re-state my enquiries: 1. If all the 'forces' named by you ( so-called pseudo secular forces + soft Hindutva forces + major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces) were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government?????? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. Who therefore does Modi represent?????? 2. If a substantial part of the 65% vote (in the Gujarat election) was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (as per Tara Prakash, whether they won or lost), then wouldnt a logical deduction from Tara Prakash's premise be that those participating voters were "evil" too?????? These are questions. Of course you can say "I said what I said and I do not care what meanings are conveyed or whether anything meaningful is conveyed at all; I said what I said" Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: If this is how you understand the message, let this be the import of my message. I of course do not want to homogenize in any circumstance. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Your words were very clear and did not need any interpretation by me. Maybe it was an unfortunate turn of phrase and words by you. In any case, now, you have clarified that you did not mean that all Hindus are evil. You have again said some interesting things. For one: """""" Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him."""" If all the 'forces' named by you were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. AND you go on to say: """"" I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil.""""" Gujarat had a 65% voter turn-out. That is quite a high percentage for any part of the world. If a substantial part of this 65% vote was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (whether they won or lost), then those participating voters would be "evil" too. So, in the "Gujarat according to Tara Prakash" it was 'mainly' the 'evil' contesting and 'mainly' the 'evil' voting. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Dear Kshmendra. An intriguing interpretation of my message. I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did. I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus. Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected. I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives. It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? Itâ?Ts cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071227/8ce92b6a/attachment.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 07:40:29 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:10:29 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <031201c848f6$d299ab20$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Okay. if it comes to being precise and being to the point, (while missing the point), in your fashion. here are the answers to your questions. 1. what is meant by 'your beloved' country? It means the country that you claim you love. 2. don't you stay in this country? No, physically not. 3. is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? Yes. 4. are muslims 'bigger' than country? Every human life is bigger (more important) than any country. So the answer in one word is yes. Hope that helps ----- Original Message ----- From: Vedavati Jogi To: TaraPrakash Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 12:48 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election what is meant by 'your beloved' country? don't you stay in this country? is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? are muslims 'bigger' than country? > From: taraprakash at gmail.com > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500 > > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai. > On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away? > Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > my dear zainab, > > > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes. > > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station? > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > > > id you reciprocate? > > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood? > > > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..! > > > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible. > > > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too. > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, > > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned. > > In peace, > > Zainab (gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati > > > > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is humanity that has won.. > > > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks... > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir.. > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place... > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month.... > > > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win... > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071227/823c4561/attachment.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 22:11:40 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:41:40 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Idol worship References: <398121.18611.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008e01c84970$8a1536b0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Dear Chanchal. Let me try to answer all the points raised in your mail. I will try to be brief with my answers. 1. Do you follow everything of Kabir... No. I don't have to. Kabir just was used to tell you that there are alternative schools of Hindu philosophy. 2. Kabir said lots of things... Do you know all... No. But I know most of them. 3. Kabir probably meant: God can be achieved only through purity of heart and mind... But Kabir didn't say anywhere: How can you achieve that purity of mind and heart... Well, he did not say that. But if he meant that, then it would be the guru who would lead one to God. Guru Govind dou khare Ka ke laagoon paay, Balihari Guru aapne Govind diya milaay. It roughly means that Guru needs to be worshipped more than God, as it is Guru who leads one to God. (Of course this is Kabir's view, I see no reason to find God. If God cares anything, let him find me.) 4. Worship in Hinduism is a process of gaining respect, regard and love. Every Hindu knows that Idol will not move or do anything, yet they worship - and there is lies depth to it... And it is this process that has made HIndus the most tolerant religion of the world.... Some of the saints/teachers most respected by the learned Hindus never accept Hinduism as a religion. It is more a way of life; more of a philosophy. 5. Had they been worshipping like Muslims and Christians.. they would also have behaved like them... Now how do Hindus behave which is different from other religions? We Hindus (sorry I have been declared fake) so you hindus have tried your utmost to follow the Western masters in all their manners. (Khaki knickers chod ke Bolo Vande mataram.) 6. It seems to me that you are not a Hindu, and you are using a fake name.. or may be you are converted and I do not know your sirname... Even if I tell you my surname, why can't that be a faked one? But I have read many Hindu scriptures and know that idol worship is for the people with weaker intellect. I don't like to discuss Gyan Marg with the people who can't understand it. ----- Original Message ---- From: TaraPrakash To: chanchal malviya ; reader-list at sarai.net Cc: sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:12:13 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Idol worship Kabir said and I do really not want to use my words to answer this mail. Patthar pooje hari mile To mein poojoon pahar Ta te to chaki bhali Jo pis khae sansaar. Here perhaps Kabir is telling a better use of a stone than being worshipped. In Kabir's time all the mills were made with stone. What he roughly says is If one gets God by worshiping a stone I want to worship a mountain (perhaps in search of a bigger God) A mill is better than that which feeds the world by grinding the grain. ----- Original Message ----- From: "chanchal malviya" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:52 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Idol worship > For those who have advocated Idolatory as abuse to God - let them show One > religion and one society in the world who do not worship Idols and are > peaceful... > > Quick questions: > 1. What are words describing Allah? Only literates can read those words. > Blind can hear those words. Blind and Deaf can neither read nor hear those > words - what about those Muslims. > 2. Do you believe that a picture (image) is worth more than 1000 words? > What would you prefer to worship - words or images. Which is more > impacting - picture or words? > > These questions might seem to be simple, but they are not. let me put some > analysis for you... > > 1. Hindus worship Ideals and not Idols. Ask the most idiot of all Hindus, > would the stone move or talk for you and he will so 'No'. But if you ask > the same Hindu, what will your stone do if I break it, and he will reply > what will your Allah or Christ do it, if I abuse him. The answers are same > on both side, the effect is same. But one question is sure to think in > depth - why do Hindus worship Idols then when all of them knows that it > cannot move or talk? And answer is so simple - Can Allah or Christ move or > talk? You find Allah and Christ in your words, we find our God in Idols. > How beautiful your words are you know, but we know our Idols are the most > beautiful creations of some hands. > > 2. Hindus worshipping Idols while knowing that it will not move or talk > signifies that Hindus are worshipping the Immaterial in relation to > Material (Both of which constitutes the world). But Islam or Christian > think that God is an entity that sits somewhere in 7th world and watches > helplessly on us. > > 3. Names like Allah or Christ signifies the identity of God as an entity. > > 4. God as One is also in Hinduism, but not illogical to say that he is > material bounded by smallest finite number 'One'. Hindus believe that all > manifestations and energies of manifestations when summed up results in > that 'One' which has formed everything and which is the formation too. > Thus the 'One' is explained. > > 5. Human minds are materialistic. Senses requires material to sense and > understand things. Hence, to understand and feel God, words, images, > emotions, everthing in Hinduism has a place. > > 6. Love, respect and regard is the pillars of all Hindu worship (Unlike > all other religions, where they worship religion and force the same on > others). > > 7. Deities in Hindus are natural powers - they were not humans. They are > used as metaphors to explain the natural science. Thus, story of Brahma, > Vishnu and others in Quran doesn't mean that they had physical existence - > they are the icons to relate to natural powers. For example, Jyotir Lingam > means Shiv - The God of Light - Jyoti meaning light and Lingam in sanskrit > meaning Symbol. Thus shiva is a symbol of light, light being the highest > form of energy - and hence Shiva is called as Mahadeva. > > 8. Idol worhship is a social arrangement which absorbs all level of > thinking to become peaceful in nature. It is because, Hindus seem to be > worshipping Idols, but actually they do not worship Idols - they worship > Ideals. Hence, when one worships Lord Rama, he doesn't worship Rama as > God, he worships the best of God in Rama. Islam says God is most > benevolent, the most kind... but fails to categorize this most and ends up > in saying that he is an entity. Hinduism goes far ahead from this to say > that God is within us too, with all his qualities - it is up to us to > realize the best of him - humans fail to do, but the most powerful of all > natural creations does this - Lord Rama and Krishna did this - and hence > the best of God is what is worshipped. > > Nothing in Hinduism is illogical. Everything has a scientific and natural > research of thousands of years behind it. It is like, we do not need to > know how to build a computer and hence we are simply taught the softwares. > So, a Hindus need not know what is Saraswati in natural form, but are > taught to relate her with the ability to study - the ability being the > power of nature that helps in building knowledge. And hence, Hindus > worship Saraswati and making a beautiful idol is to ensure that everyone > has the love and respect towards 'Vidya'. > > How will Muslims and Christians understand this - when their whole social > arrangement is to kill. A child grows with a goat with love and is then > taught to kill it barbarously with his hand. Anyone going against is > declared Kafir and anything outside the hardlined boundary is thought as > impure. > > If Jesus became God by forgiving his enemies, let the world start > worshipping 1 billion Jesus - for Hindus have been forgiving even greater > barbarism from past 1000 years. > > Jai Hind, > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071228/e991ab65/attachment.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 00:45:15 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 14:15:15 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Reversal of Fortune Message-ID: <005801c84a4f$281adca0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Hi all. here is an article from Wall Street Journal which discusses an issue which is sooner or later going to be a hot topic of discussion in the Indian media. Caste politics seems to be taking a new turn. A couple of years ago, RSS issued a statement that only a Dalit woman can unite the Hindus of India. And that "Dalit woman" came to power in U.P. with the slogan "Brahmin shankh bajaaega Haathi barhta jaaega." (Brahmin will blow the conch and the elephant (election symbol of BSP) will keep marching on.) Reversal of Fortune Isolates India's Brahmins. By Eric Bellman. CHENNAI, India -- Brahmins, as Hinduism's priestly and scholarly caste, have traditionally occupied a place of privilege in India. Brahmins have been advisers to Maharajas, Mughals and military rulers. Under British rule, they served as administrators, a position they kept after Indian independence in 1947. But in today's India, high-caste privileges are dwindling, and with the government giving extensive preferences to the lower-caste majority, many Brahmins are feeling left out of the economy's rapid expansion. R. Parameswaran has suffered that reversal of fortune. The 29-year-old starts every day with a prayer to the Hindu god Shiva, marking his forehead with red and white powder to let the world know he is a Brahmin. In his home village, his caste's mark brought him respect, but since he moved to Chennai, a sprawling high-tech city in the southern state of Tamil Nadu, in the late 1990s, he has found his status a liability. In Tamil Nadu, nearly 70% of government jobs and public-college slots are reserved for people from lower castes and other historically disadvantaged groups. Although he says he graduated near the top of his high-school class and had strong test scores, Mr. Parameswaran couldn't get into any of the state engineering colleges. His family had to borrow from friends to send him to a second-rate private college. He now teaches English at a small vocational school. On a salary of $100 a month, Mr. Parameswaran can't afford an apartment, so he sleeps in the classroom at night. I am suffering," says the intense young man, using the exaggerated enunciation of an English teacher. Unfortunately, I was born as a Brahmin. Although the role of Brahmins has never been synonymous with accumulating wealth, many are affluent enough to educate their children in the better private schools. On average, members of the caste, who make up about 5% of India's population of 1.1 billion, are better educated and better paid than the rest of Indian people. The term Brahmin has come to be used globally to describe those at the top of the heap with an attitude to match, as in Boston Brahmins. Yet close to half of Brahmin households earn less than $100 a month, according to the Center for a Study of Developing Societies, a New Delhi think tank. For these Brahmins, the array of state-mandated preferences for other groups present a high hurdle. The reverse discrimination is rooted in Indian history and politics. For decades, Brahmins were resented for their dominance of the government, economy and culture. Indeed, political parties in Tamil Nadu sprang from anti-Brahmin feelings. If you see a Brahmin and a snake, kill the Brahmin first" was an old slogan. A national constitution adopted in 1950 reserved more than 20% of government jobs for lower castes. In 1990, an additional 27% were set aside for what were called "other backward castes. Some states set higher quotas, including Tamil Nadu, which reserves 69% of government jobs for lower castes and other needy groups. The ugliest Brahmin bashing in India ended years ago, but Mr. Parameswaran says that in college in the late 1990s, he still faced ridicule as a Brahmin. He says one student tried to break his sacred thread, a simple circle of twine Brahmins wear under their clothes. After college, he had an internship in a state-owned chemical company, but says he was told he wouldn't be hired, as there were openings only for lower-caste applicants. He says he took exams to join national railways, state banks and other government agencies, such as the immigration department, but found most posts closed to all Brahmins except the most brilliant. From his makeshift home where he sleeps with a blanket on a desk most nights, Mr. Parameswaran still applies for government jobs. He pulls out his latest application form and shows a visitor where he always gets stuck: the three squares where he has to write the abbreviation indicating his caste. I want government work," he says, shaking the application, "but they have no jobs for Brahmins. Mr. Parameswaran has tried to adapt to the lessening of caste distinctions taking place in many parts of India today, especially in cities. The changes are less in villages such as the one where he grew up some 200 miles away. There, his grandfather, who is 101 years old, still won't wear Western clothes and won't eat outside of his home for fear of mixing with lower castes. Mr. Parameswaran's father has a job with the state telephone company and is more liberal. He dresses in shirts and pants, doesn't mind eating at restaurants and doesn't expect lower-caste neighbors to take off their sandals in his presence. Mr. Parameswaran has had good friends from lower castes all his life, many of whom have used their communities to grab good government jobs, he says. He won't eat meat but has no qualms sharing a meal with people of any caste or creed. His 22-year-old sister, R. Dharmambal, is even more liberal, he says. She will take non-vegetarian food," he exclaims, using the common Indian term for eating meat. Mr. Parameswaran often visits the sister in the Brahmin enclave of Mylapore. On a recent day there, dozens of shirtless priests in the traditional Brahmin uniform of a white dhoti and partially shaved head were standing around at a Hindu-scriptures school, hoping for work. For as little as 100 rupees, about $2.50, they offered to perform complicated rituals and blessings required when any Hindu has a baby, a wedding or a new home. My sons can't support me, so I have to survive by performing Hindu rituals," says K. Narayana, an 81-year-old scholar. If we had been from another community, we would have had better opportunities. Nearby stands the Kapaleeshwara Temple, with towering gates of colorful carvings from Hindu mythology. It is one of the most important places for worship for followers of Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction. The temple used to be surrounded by rows of simple single-story homes, each with its own courtyard and well so the Brahmin families wouldn't have to share water with other castes. Most houses have been replaced by concrete apartment blocks and small stores. At the temple's back gate, Brahmins beg for spare change or look for odd jobs as cooks or even bearers of bodies to funeral pyres, normally a lower-caste pursuit. I see so many Brahmins begging" in Mylapore, Mr. Parameswaran says. It's very difficult to see. It makes me totally upset. Tariq Engineer contributed to this article.Write to Eric Bellman at eric.bellman at awsj.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071229/30b0e8b6/attachment.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 01:47:09 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:17:09 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] UNTOUCHABLEKillings Show Caste System Thrives Message-ID: <00ed01c84a57$cb5cdcd0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> UNTOUCHABLEKillings Show Caste System Thrives. Bettering Themselves, Indian Farm Family Ignited the Fury of Neighbors. By Yaroslav Trofimov. KHAIRLANJI, India -- Not long ago, the Bhotmange family was a showcase of how Dalits, the former "untouchables" at the bottom of India's caste ladder, are improving their lot amid the nation's economic boom. Forgoing his ancestral occupation of handling rotting cow carcasses, Bhaiyalal Bhotmange set up a tiny wheat and rice farm in this village. The income enabled him to buy a cellphone and educate his three children. His 17-year-old daughter learned English, a rarity here. A son studied computers and enrolled at a local college. I knew that only through education can we uplift our status," Mr. Bhotmange says. This was my dream. Last year, the dream ended. A mob of higher-caste neighbors, angered by the family's refusal to accept their destiny as the lowliest of the low, attacked their home. Mr. Bhotmange's wife and children were dragged out and killed, their bodies dumped in a canal. Mr. Bhotmange, who had managed to flee, is now a refugee in a nearby city, afraid to venture into Khairlanji. The killings and their fallout show how the rising aspirations of India's most downtrodden can exacerbate age-old social tensions. A prolonged economic boom has improved the lot of millions of the nation's poorest, including Dalits. Still, despite a ban on "untouchability" and decades of affirmative-action aid to Dalits, the rigid stratification imposed by the Hindu caste system is proving resistant to change, sometimes violently so. In parts of rural India in particular, the upward mobility of some is causing tension along caste fault lines. The actual practice of caste is strengthening, and the [Dalits] are still the main victims," says Buta Singh, a minister-rank official who heads a federal commission on Dalit issues. The killings at Khairlanji ignited weeks of Dalit rioting that further deepened the divide. Following the protests, India's federal government took over the investigation late last year. It is only now, as a murder trial moves ahead, that a full picture of what happened here on a rainy fall afternoon is beginning to emerge. A small-boned man with a creased face, Mr. Bhotmange moved to Khairlanji from a nearby village almost 20 years ago. He claimed a two-hectare plot that belonged to his relatives and that, until then, was illegally farmed by higher-caste villagers. Most of the 800 people in this remote village, set on a dirt road amid palms and tamarind trees, hail from the farmer and trader castes known as "kunbi" and "kalar. Pegged below Hindu noble castes such as the priestly Brahmins and the Kshatriya rulers and warriors, they are considered "backward" by the government and entitled to affirmative-action benefits. Their standing, however, is well above that of the Dalits, who are viewed as unclean by the Hindu tradition and who have been confined for millennia to the most demeaning of occupations. Mr. Bhotmange's family, one of only three Dalit households in Khairlanji, was made unwelcome from the start, he says. The village council refused to recognize him as a resident and barred him from building a permanent home. His hut at the village edge is made of bricks piled atop each other without mortar. Villagers, he says, usually addressed him as "mahar," a caste slur meaning carcass handler. I would tell them, 'Please don't call me this way, I have a proper name,' " Mr. Bhotmange says. The village chief, Hasan Dhande, says Dalits are treated with respect here. Mr. Bhotmange's little farm was a good earner, bringing in almost $2,000 a year, a hefty sum in this area. His wife, Surekha, earned some more by rolling homemade Indian cigarettes. This success and the children's schooling aroused envy from higher-caste neighbors, he says: "I earned more from my five acres than they did from 10-acre farms, and they were jealous. They couldn't forgive me. Worse, his plot lay on the way to some other villagers' holdings. Instead of using a roundabout access road, many drove their tractors and bullock carts straight through his property, and through his crops. He lodged several complaints with the police but got no help. As the dispute escalated, Mr. Bhotmange finally asked a relative of his wife from a nearby village to intervene. The relative, Siddhartha Gajbhiye, embodied Khairlanji villagers' worst fears about Dalits upending India's age-old social order. A bulky man with thick, meaty fingers, Mr. Gajbhiye had become one of the wealthier local figures, accumulating 19 hectares and even employing some higher-caste villagers. He was the "patil," or auxiliary policeman, responsible for settling small disputes in his own village. Riding his motorcycle into Khairlanji, Mr. Gajbhiye became a frequent visitor to the Bhotmanges, checking on them and arguing with villagers on their behalf. I never wanted any quarrel," he says. But what the other villagers wanted from the beginning was to drive them out and to take over their land. Things came to a head on Sept. 3, 2006. As Mr. Gajbhiye passed through Khairlanji that evening, he was attacked by several men armed with thick bamboo sticks used as cattle prods. The reason is in dispute. Some villagers testified at the murder trial it was retribution for his slapping one of them during an argument over unpaid wages. Mr. Gajbhiye says there was no provocation and that the attackers hurled caste insults and said it was because of him "that Bhotmange has become so arrogant. Hearing the commotion, Mr. Bhotmange's daughter and wife ran out and confronted the attackers, using the family cellphone to call Mr. Gajbhiye's brother for help. Two weeks later, out of the hospital, Mr. Gajbhiye filed a complaint against the villagers under the Scheduled Caste Prevention of Atrocities Act, which prohibits bail for those accused of crimes against the Dalits. The local police station, however, registered the incident as simple assault. The officer in charge is now on trial for allegedly taking a bribe to do so. According to witnesses in the murder case, higher-caste villagers told Mr. Bhotmange's wife, Surekha, that the men who beat up Mr. Gajbhiye had the backing of police and politicians, and warned her against testifying. She defied the threats. The morning of Sept. 29, 2006, 13 village men named by her and her daughter were arrested and taken to court. All were quickly freed on bail. As they set out for home in a tractor-drawn cart, one of them called a Maharashtra state legislator representing a nearby district, Madhukar Kukde. Mr. Kukde says he was told the villagers believed Mr. Gajbhiye was organizing a gang who would raid the village to avenge his beating. Mr. Gajbhiye says he had no such plan. By the time the released villagers reached Khairlanji, they were ready for battle. Unable to find Mr. Gajbhiye, they turned their fury on the Bhotmanges, whose testimony had caused their arrest. The rampage began just as Mr. Bhotmange returned from his field about 6 p.m. Converging at his hut, the gang yelled, "Let's finally cleanse our village of the mahars," according to neighbors interviewed. Mr. Bhotmange escaped out the back. I thought that if I weren't in the house, they wouldn't touch the womenfolk," he says ruefully. From Khairlanji, he ran to Mr. Gajbhiye's home in the nearby village. Mr. Gajbhiye says he quickly phoned the police and asked them to rescue the family. The crowd around the Bhotmanges' hut swelled to some 60 villagers. Trying to scare them off, Mr. Bhotmange's wife, Surekha, went outside waving a torch and set an adjoining cattle shed on fire, according to trial testimony. This only further enraged the mob. One man pulled her by the hair and smashed her head against a drain wall, according to the prosecutors' charge sheet. Then the crowd closed in, pounding her with bamboo sticks, bicycle chains and axes. First there were shouts of, 'Save us! Save us! and then just, 'Kill them! Kill them! says Gayabai Khandate, a woman whose hut is a few dozen meters away. The Bhotmange children were dragged out next. I didn't do anything to you -- do not beat me," 21-year-old Sudhir pleaded before he was bludgeoned at the cowdung pit, according to witness testimony. After killing him, the mob turned to his brother Roshan, 19, cracking his skull. The 17-year-old daughter, Priyanka, who tried to hide in the burning cattle shed, was the last to be discovered. After the first few blows of bicycle chains, she lay quivering on the ground. Mamma, they killed me," she kept calling out, according to witnesses' testimony. Mamma, I am dead. Suresh Khandate, in front of whose hut some of the killings occurred, says the frenzied villagers shouted that they had to find and kill Mr. Bhotmange, too. When they noticed that Mr. Khandate -- who, as a member of an aboriginal tribe, falls outside the caste system -- was watching, he says one told him: "Go indoors and keep your mouth shut or you will be next. As darkness fell and a downpour began, the mob piled the four bodies in a bullock cart and took them to an irrigation canal. The next morning, according to trial testimony, one villager asked a tea-stall vendor for free tea. He explained that he had accidentally destroyed some of his money when he burned a shirt stained with the Bhotmanges' blood. Mr. Bhotmange returned before dawn to search for his family. Finding only a ransacked hut, he went to the police station. In late morning, while he was waiting, the police received a phone call: The body of a young woman, naked and with the name Priyanka tattooed on her arm, had been spotted floating in a canal. The three other bodies, partly nude, were retrieved from the canal the next day. Even though Priyanka was found naked, a doctor who performed a post-mortem exam didn't check for signs of rape. Local politicians played down the slaughter as a common crime. It had nothing do with caste. It was just a small village conflict about a road. There is no problem between Dalits and others here," says Mr. Kukde, the legislator. But as the news filtered out, often exaggerated with even more gruesome detail, Dalit neighborhoods exploded throughout the state of Maharashtra. The big industrial city of Nagpur was brought almost to a standstill as Dalit protesters set vehicles and storefronts on fire, and at least three people were killed in the area. Days later, Dalit mobs stopped a train between Mumbai and the city of Pune, forcing passengers out and torching the cars. As Dalit activists from all over India arrived in Khairlanji, they accused the state government of complicity, citing the lack of police response to the Bhotmanges' complaints and the flawed post-mortem. Maharashtra Home Minister R.R. Patil rejects the accusation. He says that, while at least five law-enforcement officials in the Khairlanji area have been suspended for alleged misconduct related to the case, there is no reason to believe their actions were caused by caste prejudice. Some of these officials, he says, are of Dalit origin themselves. The riots died down only after the Central Bureau of Investigation took over the case. Its agents had a hard time collecting evidence as a pall of silence descended over the village. The CBI filed charges against only 11 of the 47 villagers arrested by local and state police. Ranging in age from 21 to 56, most had lived all their lives in Khairlanji, seeing the Bhotmanges every day. The other suspects, including Mr. Dhande, since elected village chief, have denied wrongdoing and are back in Khairlanji. The trial has been going on for six months in a dingy, cream-colored room in the district capital of Bhandara, an hour's drive away. On a recent morning, a session in an empty courtroom was quickly adjourned at the written request of witnesses who said they needed to work their fields. Lawyers for the 11 defendants say the investigators have charged the wrong men. That's a view partially shared by some Dalit leaders, who contend the main conspirators have escaped because of their political connections. A verdict is expected in around three months. Mr. Bhotmange has been given a government job as a watchman at Bhandara's Backward Boys Home. He spends his days by a broken window, guarded by a plainclothes policeman who also rides on the back of Mr. Bhotmange's bicycle when he pedals home. Not a single villager from Khairlanji, Mr. Bhotmange says, has come to see him to express regret about the killings. I think they're happy. They got what they wanted," he says. Back in the village, dozens of policemen camp in tents around the Bhotmanges' hut, looking out for the property and for the few villagers who testified for the prosecution. Still visible at the hut's door post are pencil marks that traced the changing heights of Mr. Bhotmange's children. Tattered pictures of their favorite Bollywood stars, Sanjay Dutt and Aishwarya Rai, are still on the wood. Otherwise, life in Khairlanji has returned to normal. The village is very peaceful these days," says Krushna Titirmare, whose bullock cart was used -- without his knowledge, he says -- to dispose of the bodies. There are no quarrels anymore. Write to Yaroslav Trofimov at yaroslav.trofimov at wsj.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071229/47d62d2c/attachment.html From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 12:10:00 2007 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 12:10:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-II In-Reply-To: <13df7c120712252143v16d039f1p7aaaa2919099d1e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <13df7c120712252143v16d039f1p7aaaa2919099d1e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0712282240p51f7ec9chb73592d50fe76ac8@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, This is a very interesting discussion underway. In particular it allows us to open out some questions regarding two troubling concepts which at least I have been wrestling with for some time. These being the question of tolerance and prosyletizing. In many many conversations now there has been an insistence on the "tolerant" nature of Hinduism in comparison to Islam's "intolerance" by gesturing towards Hinduism's "acceptance" of other faiths because it does not insist on, in fact within the doctrine itself there is no provision for, conversion to Hinduism. This apparent liberal broad-mindedness of the Hindu religion is then contrasted with the supposed intolerance of Islam where the unbelievers are exhorted to convert to the one true religion or perish etc etc. I wish to make only a small intervention, because a deep category confusion is underway here in my opinion. Only a faith such as Islam in which is premised on absolute social equality can even make a claim as inclusionary as an equal share in the brotherhood of god. And in that regard Islam is a radicalising force and sees itself as such. It asks that everyone, all of society, be similarly radicalised. You can agree or disagree with the terms of this conversion, with the form of life it asks you lead and so on, but you cannot discount the deeply democratic and egalitarian impulse that informs it. In contrast, Brahmanical Hinduism begins from exactly the opposite premise - that of a fundamental social inequality, of hierarchy. Brahmanical Hinduism's rejection of conversion is motivated by an exclusionary impulse. How can it ask everyone to be Hindu when it deems most people: dalits, women, tribals to name just a few categories - unworthy, unfit and unclean? And so Brahmanical Hinduism is an inherently heirarchical religion. Therefore when we hail Brahmanical Hinduisim for its liberal impulses, we must proceed with caution for the simple reason that we are getting the wrong end of the stick: it is not "liberality" and "tolerance" that motivate Brahmanical Hinduism, but the opposite. regards Aarti -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071229/2e1b5a8d/attachment.html From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 16:12:54 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 16:12:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: <796663.78987.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <796663.78987.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990712280242l2fbdb15p51d1f48bd06c8906@mail.gmail.com> Hi, If you read the message response, it explains why the problem is happening. "Post by non-member to a members-only list" - in short, just ask Vedavati to subscribe with that email ID. Rgds, Partha .................... On Dec 28, 2007 3:52 PM, we wi wrote: > Dear All, > > Why is this happening again and again? I think SARAI itself confused > whether it is moderated or administered. If it is moderated then the > contents of the every mail should be read and censored then only mail should > be published. There should be impartiality in this. If it is administered > it is something different again. > > > Regards, > dhatri. > > *Vedavati Jogi * wrote: > > > > see dhatri, > > my mails need moderator's approval but oshik, arnav's mails don't require > this type of approval. > > great! isn't it. > i think we now have to change the definition of 'vulgarity' also. > > > > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > > From: reader-list-bounces at mail.sarai.net > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:47:53 +0530 > > > > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > > > RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > > > The reason it is being held: > > > > Post by non-member to a members-only list > > > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/d25f5f515de09f04f676659df32b5b09b0a146cc > > > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071228/5e0a5947/attachment.html From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 10:00:22 2007 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 04:30:22 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Roadside traders march against eviction move Message-ID: <3457ce860711302030n3e98488bmb99886b3ac4c9c6e@mail.gmail.com> Roadside traders march against eviction move Special Correspondent http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/01/stories/2007120160390300.htm Corporation yet to come up with rehabilitation package for displaced vendors THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Hundreds of fish and vegetable vendors, mostly women, took out a march to the City Corporation office at Palayam here on Friday to protest against the move to evict them from roadside markets. The protest was organised by the Theeradesa Mahila Vedi. Inaugurating the march, State president of the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation T. Peter alleged that the eviction move was aimed at paving the way for the entry of retail chains like Walmart and Reliance. He said hundreds of vendors would lose their livelihood if they were displaced. Mr. Peter said the Corporation was bound to provide alternative land and facilities for the vendors to carry on their trade. "Many vendors have been selling fish and vegetables by the roadside for decades. Customers are drawn to them by the reasonable rates," he added. President of Theeradesa Mahila Vedi Elizabeth Antony, secretary Freeska Kurishappan, Magline Peter, KSMTF district president Valierian Isack, secretary Anto Alias and former ward councillor Bridget Franklin addressed the protestors. The march began from the Secretariat and proceeded to the City Corporation office. Despite the snowballing protest, the Corporation has failed to come up with a rehabilitation package for the displaced hawkers. The City Development Plan outlines a proposal to rehabilitate hawkers and legitimise street vending as an 'affordable' service for the urban population. Scheduled to be taken up under the Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission (JNNURM), the project primarily seeks to relocate street vendors to special zones equipped with basic infrastructural facilities. It is estimated that the city has 3,700 street vendors operating from commercial zones like East Fort, Chalai, Manacaud, Thampanoor, Statue, Palayam, Karamana, Kesavadasapuram, Vazhuthacaud, Medical College, Ulloor and Sasthamangalam. Under the project, the Corporation would identify land to create hawking zones where street vendors would be provided with semi permanent structures and basic amenities like toilets, electricity, drinking water and storage. It moots aesthetic design of mobile stalls and push carts to improve appeal. http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From virtuallyme at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 10:25:05 2007 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 04:55:05 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] An urban playground Message-ID: <79e82f610711302054v3649de39n9231b524670c8aa9@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Pls find below a posting by me on a particular playground in Bangalore. Rgds, Rohan *Akkithimmanahalli ground* Akkithimmanahalli ground*, situated in Richmond Town, Bangalore, is like any other playground one can see in Indian cities or towns. The features being an open maidan, where public access is free and unrestricted and various groups play sports of their choice simultaneously. This ground is also a feature of Bangalore, which has many such open maidans, unaffiliated to any association/institution. The ground is on a location where, like in many other places in Bangalore, there used to be a tank. This tank known variously as Akkithimmanahalli tank and Mud tank was in existence till the 70s. The main portion of the tank bed now consists of three parts, home to three different set-ups, with three different kinds of access. One part, which is also the largest, is the Karnataka State Hockey Association stadium complex, built in 1997, which consists of an astro-turf pitch and stadium, association office and gymnasium, mini hockey pitch and a residential block. Access to this complex is mostly restricted to members and players only, except on occasions when matches are held there. The second part is Divyasree Chambers, a commercial complex, which has many corporate offices, located in it and was built in 1999. Access here also is limited most of the time to employees, clients/customers and guests of the offices located there. Though there are a couple of ATMs (Citibank and HDFC) and a Bangalore One counter (where various utilities bills can be paid) in the complex, which can be accessed by others as well. The third part is the playground, which belongs to the Bangalore City Corporation and is accessible to all. The ground is in one corner of what used to be part of the tank bed and is almost square shaped. There is a wall made of grills around it, with one gate and small entry points at two other places. There are two rain trees in the western corner of the ground, which has a round platform around it and one near the main entrance. The soil is hard and has a smattering of small stones. There is a small building along the northern boundary of the ground, which houses an office for a government old age home. There are some slippery slides, jungle gyms and other such play equipments at the northern part of the ground. Largely used as a space to play in, the ground is occasionally used for festivals such as Ganesh Chaturthi, Navaratri, Deepavali and some other programmes. On a normal basis, it is a playground, where different groups play many sports at the same time. The most prominent sport, being cricket. One or two groups attempt to play other sports such as football and another, which seems to be cross between football and cricket (which I shall for convenience call, footcricket). The ground is occupied to its fullest capacity during weekday evenings and most of the time during weekends. Some people also play on weekday mornings. Most of the groups, who play in the ground, constitute locals from the neighbouring Shantinagar, especially from its lower income areas. The language spoken most is Kannada, with a little bit of Tamil. The ground is located in between middle and upper income group areas such as Langford Town and Richmond Town, with Shantinagar being in the area adjacent to the hockey stadium complex. The middle and upper class local youth, who live close by seem to have moved on from playing here, in favour of the more 'sanitised' institutional (school/colleges) play areas as well as private clubs. Though largely dominated by the locals from Shantinagar, there have been occasions earlier and now, where 'outsiders' have and continue to attempt to find space to play here. The 'outsiders' in this context are broadly two groups. One is the 'non-local locals', i.e., those who have come from outside Bangalore and even South India, but live in this neighbourhood. These include people (mostly students) from the northeastern states of India and some migrants from Nepal. The other group of 'outsiders' constitutes those who work in the various corporate offices in Divyasree chambers. The most part of space is taken up by the locals, who mostly play cricket and 'footcricket'. Space used by the 'outsiders' is relatively less and is characterized by other sports such as football. One can see the northeastern youth playing football in a truncated space in one part of the ground and the corporate employees in another corner, playing cricket. It is very rare that this composition of the playing area is different. The occasions when this differs are when the locals haven't entered the field, mostly because of the time of the day. During two such occasions, one was witness to a full-fledged football match being played by northeastern youth and another was when the corporate employees took center stage, literally, with their cricket equipment. But, on both occasions it was times of the day, which many of the locals did not consider as playing time. Sometimes belonging to regional and class groups determines spaces occupied. This seems to be determined to start with by regional/class belonging and then in the next level national belonging. This area has many from Nepal also who are employed as watchmen in the various buildings. They also play cricket, mostly on Sundays. I happened to play with them on two occasions. On one of these occasions, when we were playing in one part of the ground, another group, seemingly all locals started playing 'footcricket' near us. In spite of seeming to have enough space for themselves, one or two from the 'footcricket' group attempted to come in the way of the bowler and batsman of our group. A few such attempts were made and responses sought. When the responses seemed to be mild enough, there was no more disturbance of this sort. This seemed like an assertion of ownership of the space as well as an invitation to challenge that. One wonders whether this is a representation or a reaction to what is happening at a larger level in the city of Bangalore, where physical spaces in the form of land, cultural spaces in the form of festivals and employment/livelihood spaces in terms of jobs/businesses are increasingly being challenged by 'outsiders' and thereby making them grounds for conflict. And is what one sees playing out here also, a response by lower income groups/classes to changes of configuration in the city where a new breed of public spaces, like malls, clubs are emerging, where access is largely determined by income and class belonging? Is conversion of traditional public spaces such as parks, tanks into restricted spaces, through handing them over to private management, also contributing to these contestations? Playgrounds such as Akkithimanahalli face extinction due to attempts like one by the authorities (Bangalore City Corporation) **, where they sought to convert it and many other such grounds into underground parking lots. This move by the authorities needs to be seen in the light where cities such as Bangalore are increasingly being made upper and middle class friendly. Therefore spaces, like this ground, that used to be used by members of this class, but not anymore, are seen to be looked at as those which can cater to different and new needs of this class at this point in time. When one then sees all of this, which forms part of a larger design to convert cities such as Bangalore into 'mega cities' with clear class orientation and belonging, the contestations that happen in the playground don't seem surprising anymore. *Satellite map of Mud Tank area - http://maps.google.com/maps?key=ABQIAAAA6c_jabZz8p68OmBSGUQ4-hR9cIphkSRpGuP1UpICwt_aYUuIuRT4k9Dgqf04wqMPR2l-GEkr3TpUNw&ie=UTF8&ll=12.962217,77.600427&spn=0.005374,0.009785&t=h&z=16&om=0 ** Article on underground parking at playgrounds - http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2007042219240400.htm&date=2007/04/22/&prd=th& From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 10:42:13 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 05:12:13 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of abominations that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of you try to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead to ? Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time you want all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though thay may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an anti allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state has "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the keyboard. Pawan Durani On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > post, > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted out to a > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual that > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms of > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it takes, > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people > like > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize his > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence against > its own subjects in West Bengal > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have been > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in being > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left Front > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military dictatorship in > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis of > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea were to be > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be clear > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules North Korea > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is ruled > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, weapons > and > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and foreign > policy. If the international community was justified in operating a set of > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it should have > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement support agency > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz > Sharif. > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > foreign > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides over an > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly Salafist brand > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its rented > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. Its > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and American > fighter jets. > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of abominations > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > just > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in > India. > > regards. > > Shuddha > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's Higher > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive 200 > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most heinous > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car of > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the woman > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been revoked > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee for > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the crime > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 11:59:21 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 06:29:21 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that he's as against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi one. What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the POSCO incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through non-legal punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that the constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the constitution. On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure out the logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down every building place that was once something else and replacing it with whatever it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the North Block and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you agree? In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or add God to that structure. I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very nature of their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, I certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and I saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP fanaticism makes me distrust them. As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has different wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the pain. I hear the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. Do I know the 'ground reality'? No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that conflict has become fragmented with different demands (that have changed over time, different 'truths' and different hates. Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I do like the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and to resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of death. Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that conflict. What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful resolution or retribution? Rgds, Partha .................... On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi > Arabia to the > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of abominations > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > just > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in > India. > > Dear Shuddha , > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of you try > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I wonder > where does your conscience lead to ? > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened over a > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among minorties > by > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ which > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have ever > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir . > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time you > want > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though thay may > be > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an > anti > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state > has > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir . > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the keyboard. > > Pawan Durani > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > > post, > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted out to > a > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual > that > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms of > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > takes, > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people > > like > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize his > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence against > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have been > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in being > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left Front > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military dictatorship in > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis of > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea were to > be > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be clear > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules North > Korea > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > ruled > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, weapons > > and > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and foreign > > policy. If the international community was justified in operating a set > of > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it should > have > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement support > agency > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz > > Sharif. > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > > foreign > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides over > an > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly Salafist > brand > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its > rented > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. Its > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > American > > fighter jets. > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > abominations > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > just > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > would > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in > > India. > > > > regards. > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's Higher > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive 200 > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most heinous > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car of > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the woman > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been revoked > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee for > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the crime > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 12:34:03 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 07:04:03 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Word file Message-ID: <20071201070341.76B0A2B298A2@mail.sarai.net> Please see the file. -------------- next part -------------- ***** NOTE: An attachment named New_Document_file.pif was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 12:44:46 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 07:14:46 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=28no_subject=29?= Message-ID: <20071201071329.7676F2B29741@mail.sarai.net> ???????????????????????????? ????????????? ?????? ??????????? -------------- next part -------------- ***** NOTE: An attachment named Word_Document.uu was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 12:55:00 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 07:25:00 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Sexy Message-ID: <20071201072434.E0D692B298A8@mail.sarai.net> ***** NOTE: An attachment named Attachments001.BHX was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 13:06:59 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 07:36:59 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Crazy illegal Sex! Message-ID: <20071201073636.AA66A2B298A8@mail.sarai.net> Note: forwarded message attached. -------------- next part -------------- ***** NOTE: An attachment named Sex.mim was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 13:13:56 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 07:43:56 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70711302343v67ae75bp61afa3f4acb62828@mail.gmail.com> Dear Partha , Though I wished to discuss on many points you have expressed , but for a moment I just wanted to ask you a simple question As regards to people like Yasin malik and Bitta karate .....what is your idea of peaceful solution ? Pawan On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that he's as > against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi one. > What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / > encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the POSCO > incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through non-legal > punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that the > constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's > being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the > constitution. > > On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure out the > logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down every > building place that was once something else and replacing it with whatever > it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the North Block > and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you agree? > > In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a > building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or add > God to that structure. > > I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very nature of > their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, I > certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and > Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national > dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and I > saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri > Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing > except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP > fanaticism makes me distrust them. > > As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has > different wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the > pain. I hear the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. > Do I know the 'ground reality'? > > No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that conflict has > become fragmented with different demands (that have changed over time, > different 'truths' and different hates. > > Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I do like > the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and to > resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing > Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of death. > > > Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that > conflict. > > What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful resolution > or retribution? > > Rgds, Partha > .................... > > > On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current > > Saudi > > Arabia to the > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > abominations > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > just > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > would > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in > > > > India. > > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of you > > try > > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I wonder > > where does your conscience lead to ? > > > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a > > > > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened over > > a > > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among minorties > > by > > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ which > > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have ever > > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir . > > > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time you > > want > > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though thay > > may be > > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an > > anti > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state > > has > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir . > > > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the > > keyboard. > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > > > post, > > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted out > > to a > > > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual > > that > > > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms of > > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > > takes, > > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people > > > like > > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize > > his > > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence > > against > > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have > > been > > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in being > > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left > > Front > > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military dictatorship > > in > > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis > > of > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea were to > > be > > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be clear > > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules North > > Korea > > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include Iran, > > the > > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > > ruled > > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > > weapons > > > and > > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and > > foreign > > > policy. If the international community was justified in operating a > > set of > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it should > > have > > > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement support > > agency > > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz > > > Sharif. > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > > > foreign > > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides over > > an > > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly Salafist > > brand > > > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its > > rented > > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. > > Its > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > American > > > fighter jets. > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > abominations > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > > > > just > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > would > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and > > in > > > India. > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > Higher > > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive 200 > > > > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most heinous > > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car > > of > > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the woman > > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been revoked > > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee for > > > > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the > > crime > > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.ne > > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 From chilledoutmirage at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 13:15:03 2007 From: chilledoutmirage at gmail.com (Malvika Rawal) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 07:45:03 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43295f450711302344v561daaa8pb3d7ab53e5011a74@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I am no sociologist but as a human being, I can say that we have no right to condemn another human on the basis of how he/she refers to God. Today, religion has become such a big issue for everybody but somehow, I fail to understand why all this brouhaha *Whether I refer to my God as Bhagwan, Allah, Christ or Wahe guru is nobody's choice except my own, least of all, that of the state. The state has no right to discriminate on the basis of religion and least of all, sponsor genocides based on religious discrimination.* The state's job is to protect the rights of people not take away the right to life and the right to justice. Whether it is Modi or the Saudi regime or any other for that matter, they have flouted the basic principles of egalitarianism in a society. In an ideal situation, we would say that all parties in a democracy will advocate the welfare of the people, only the path of achievement would be diferent. If anyone does otherwise, the media must bring it to the people and help condemn it. However, the situation is farr from ideal here. Where various political parties raise issues to maintain themselves in public eye, create mountains out of molehills just for their 15 minutes of fame. Issues like Nandigram, the N-deal did not deserve as much attention and noise as was made out for them. The people lusting for power let them become such big issues. This gave them their satisfaction but cost the common man dearly, with life in the first case and finances in the second case. People lusting for power will not have public welfare in mind when they speak of any issue but will have their own silly motives in mind. people who have let religion, Nandigram or anything esle for that matter become such big issues are as guilty as those who perpetrated the killings themselves. The media also feeds this lust by giving them all the attention that they want. We need to focus on the real issue and not the offshoots and mis shoots of it. The method of presentation in news is often as if the news reader is enjoying the plight of the victims. 24 hour news channels have not helped society anymore. Rather they have been party in decay. Sensationalism is quite the rule of the day with everything made spicy to attract public attention, unfortunately to all the wrong and non useful things. We as a society need to wake up to the fact that we have to learn to distinguish between the real and the depicted picture. What is shown in the news and told to us by the 'so called' leaders may not be the complete picture. in fact, that may not be the picture at all. it may be an illusion being created by them to fulfill their cheap lusts fro fame and power. Issues being blown out of proportion more than once basically shows that we the people are not able to take a stand on whether or not an issue deserves so much attention. It is this inability that gives these people all the incentive to go ahead and make us believe what they feel like. We as the people would now have learn to distinguish. It only this capability that will make us a better people. Regards Malvika On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > Hi Pawan, > > I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that he's as > against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi one. > What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / > encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the > POSCO > incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through > non-legal > punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that > the > constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's > being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the > constitution. > > On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure out the > logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down every > building place that was once something else and replacing it with whatever > it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the North > Block > and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you agree? > > In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a > building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or > add > God to that structure. > > I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very nature of > their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, I > certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and > Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national > dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and > I > saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri > Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing > except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP > fanaticism makes me distrust them. > > As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has > different > wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the pain. I > hear > the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. Do I know > the > 'ground reality'? > > No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that conflict has > become fragmented with different demands (that have changed over time, > different 'truths' and different hates. > > Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I do like > the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and to > resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing > Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of > death. > > Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that > conflict. > > What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful resolution > or > retribution? > > Rgds, Partha > .................... > > > On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current > Saudi > > Arabia to the > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > abominations > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > just > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > would > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in > > India. > > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of you > try > > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I wonder > > where does your conscience lead to ? > > > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a > > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened over > a > > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among minorties > > by > > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ which > > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have ever > > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir . > > > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time you > > want > > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though thay > may > > be > > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an > > anti > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state > > has > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir . > > > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the > keyboard. > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > > > post, > > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted out > to > > a > > > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual > > that > > > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms of > > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > > takes, > > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people > > > like > > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize > his > > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence > against > > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have > been > > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in being > > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left > Front > > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military dictatorship > in > > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis > of > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea were to > > be > > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be clear > > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules North > > Korea > > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include Iran, > the > > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > > ruled > > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > weapons > > > and > > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and > foreign > > > policy. If the international community was justified in operating a > set > > of > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it should > > have > > > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement support > > agency > > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz > > > Sharif. > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > > > foreign > > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides over > > an > > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly Salafist > > brand > > > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its > > rented > > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. > Its > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > American > > > fighter jets. > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > abominations > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > > just > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > would > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and > in > > > India. > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > Higher > > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive 200 > > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most heinous > > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car > of > > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the woman > > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been revoked > > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee for > > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the > crime > > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.ne > > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Keep smiling, smile brings sunshine to your life From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 13:19:22 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 07:49:22 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Word file Message-ID: <20071201074900.7C8BB2B298FC@mail.sarai.net> Please see the file. -------------- next part -------------- ***** NOTE: An attachment named New_Document_file.pif was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 13:43:06 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:13:06 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70711302343v67ae75bp61afa3f4acb62828@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302343v67ae75bp61afa3f4acb62828@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990712010013y1128683aq93a495cc6e12b446@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, That *is* what I was talking about. We can either focus on Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik and other mentioned by you and insist upon retribution and death... Or we can look at trying to achieve peaceful cohabitation in Kashmir, and then due diligence on all the issues. Besides, the killing of Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik, etc., might satisfy some blood / revenge thirsty people, but I fail to understand how it will resolve any issue. Rgds, Partha ............................................................ On Dec 1, 2007 1:13 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Partha , > > Though I wished to discuss on many points you have expressed , but for a > moment I just wanted to ask you a simple question > > As regards to people like Yasin malik and Bitta karate .....what is your > idea of peaceful solution ? > > Pawan > > > On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that he's > > as against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi one. > > What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / > > encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the POSCO > > incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through non-legal > > punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that the > > constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's > > being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the > > constitution. > > > > On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure out > > the logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down > > every building place that was once something else and replacing it with > > whatever it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the > > North Block and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you > > agree? > > > > In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a > > building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or add > > God to that structure. > > > > I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very nature > > of their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, I > > certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and > > Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national > > dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and I > > saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri > > Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing > > except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP > > fanaticism makes me distrust them. > > > > As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has > > different wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the > > pain. I hear the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. > > Do I know the 'ground reality'? > > > > No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that conflict has > > become fragmented with different demands (that have changed over time, > > different 'truths' and different hates. > > > > Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I do > > like the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and to > > resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing > > Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of death. > > > > > > Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that > > conflict. > > > > What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful resolution > > or retribution? > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .................... > > > > > > On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current > > > Saudi > > > Arabia to the > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > abominations > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would be > > > just > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > > would > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and > > > in > > > India. > > > > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of you > > > try > > > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I > > > wonder > > > where does your conscience lead to ? > > > > > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the > > > ground > > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or > > > a > > > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > > > figures. > > > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened > > > over a > > > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among > > > minorties by > > > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > > > > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ > > > which > > > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have ever > > > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir . > > > > > > > > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time > > > you want > > > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > > > > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though thay > > > may be > > > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need > > > an anti > > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > > > > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > > > > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > > > state has > > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir . > > > > > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the > > > keyboard. > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > > > earlier > > > > post, > > > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted > > > out to a > > > > > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > > > intellectual that > > > > > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms of > > > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > > > takes, > > > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for > > > people > > > > like > > > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize > > > his > > > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence > > > against > > > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have > > > been > > > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > > > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in > > > being > > > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left > > > Front > > > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military > > > dictatorship in > > > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the > > > aegis of > > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea were > > > to be > > > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be clear > > > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules North > > > Korea > > > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include Iran, > > > the > > > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > > > ruled > > > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > > > weapons > > > > and > > > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and > > > foreign > > > > policy. If the international community was justified in operating a > > > set of > > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it > > > should have > > > > > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > > > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement support > > > agency > > > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz > > > > Sharif. > > > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > > > > foreign > > > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides > > > over an > > > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly Salafist > > > brand > > > > > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its > > > rented > > > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. > > > Its > > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > > American > > > > fighter jets. > > > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to > > > the > > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > abominations > > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would > > > be > > > > just > > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > > would > > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat > > > and in > > > > India. > > > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > > > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > > Higher > > > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive > > > 200 > > > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most > > > heinous > > > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car > > > of > > > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the > > > woman > > > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi > > > Arabia's > > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > > revoked > > > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee > > > for > > > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the > > > crime > > > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.ne > > > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From klp_adital at sancharnet.in Sat Dec 1 14:03:18 2007 From: klp_adital at sancharnet.in (klp_adital) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:33:18 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: DSC-00465.jpg Message-ID: <20071201083303.D5C1D2B29907@mail.sarai.net> forwarded message attached. -------------- next part -------------- ***** NOTE: An attachment named DSC-00465.pIf was deleted from this message because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file type. Contact the system administrator for more information. From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 14:07:55 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:37:55 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: DSC-00465.jpg In-Reply-To: <20071201083303.D5C1D2B29907@mail.sarai.net> References: <20071201083303.D5C1D2B29907@mail.sarai.net> Message-ID: <32144e990712010037q7f28a15dp90d5044cf390b047@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Would suggest deleting messages from klp_adital from your mailbox as all the mails sent today from that ID include infected files. Most possible s/he has an infected computer that is auto-sending mails. However, short term it's safer to block mails from this ID till the user fixes the computer. Rgds, Partha ............................ On Dec 1, 2007 2:03 PM, klp_adital wrote: > forwarded message attached. > > > ***** > NOTE: An attachment named DSC-00465.pIf was deleted from this message > because it contained a windows executableor other potentially dangerous file > type. > Contact the system administrator for more information. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 14:11:13 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:41:13 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <32144e990712010013y1128683aq93a495cc6e12b446@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302343v67ae75bp61afa3f4acb62828@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990712010013y1128683aq93a495cc6e12b446@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712010041i4852ecerbb867d29b3d8804a@mail.gmail.com> And you answer for a peacful solution is general amnesty to all terrorists & mass murderers and those who are responsible for exodus of 700000 relegios minorties in Kashmir . is that what you find a resolution and that too peaceful ! On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > That *is* what I was talking about. > > We can either focus on Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik and other mentioned by > you and insist upon retribution and death... > > Or we can look at trying to achieve peaceful cohabitation in Kashmir, and > then due diligence on all the issues. > > Besides, the killing of Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik, etc., might satisfy > some blood / revenge thirsty people, but I fail to understand how it will > resolve any issue. > > Rgds, Partha > ............................................................ > > > On Dec 1, 2007 1:13 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Partha , > > > > Though I wished to discuss on many points you have expressed , but for a > > moment I just wanted to ask you a simple question > > > > As regards to people like Yasin malik and Bitta karate .....what is your > > idea of peaceful solution ? > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that > > > he's as against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi > > > one. What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / > > > encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the POSCO > > > incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through non-legal > > > punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that the > > > constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's > > > being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the > > > constitution. > > > > > > On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure out > > > the logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down > > > every building place that was once something else and replacing it with > > > whatever it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the > > > North Block and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you > > > agree? > > > > > > In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a > > > building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or add > > > God to that structure. > > > > > > I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very nature > > > of their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, I > > > certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and > > > Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national > > > dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and I > > > saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri > > > Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing > > > except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP > > > fanaticism makes me distrust them. > > > > > > As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has > > > different wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the > > > pain. I hear the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. > > > Do I know the 'ground reality'? > > > > > > No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that > > > conflict has become fragmented with different demands (that have changed > > > over time, different 'truths' and different hates. > > > > > > Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I do > > > like the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and to > > > resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing > > > Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of death. > > > > > > > > > Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that > > > conflict. > > > > > > What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful > > > resolution or retribution? > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > .................... > > > > > > > > > On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of current > > > > Saudi > > > > Arabia to the > > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > > abominations > > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I would > > > > be just > > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I > > > > would > > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat > > > > and in > > > > India. > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > > > > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of > > > > you try > > > > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I > > > > wonder > > > > where does your conscience lead to ? > > > > > > > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " > > > > , > > > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the > > > > ground > > > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist > > > > or a > > > > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > > > > figures. > > > > > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened > > > > over a > > > > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among > > > > minorties by > > > > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > > > > > > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ > > > > which > > > > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have > > > > ever > > > > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in Kashmir > > > > . > > > > > > > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same time > > > > you want > > > > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > > > > > > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though > > > > thay may be > > > > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need > > > > an anti > > > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > > > > > > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed > > > > your > > > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > > > > > > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > > > > state has > > > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in Kashmir > > > > . > > > > > > > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the > > > > keyboard. > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > > > > earlier > > > > > post, > > > > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment meted > > > > out to a > > > > > > > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be > > > > the > > > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > > > > intellectual that > > > > > > > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms > > > > of > > > > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > > > > takes, > > > > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for > > > > people > > > > > like > > > > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply > > > > criticize his > > > > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence > > > > against > > > > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who > > > > have been > > > > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's military > > > > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in > > > > being > > > > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in Left > > > > Front > > > > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military > > > > dictatorship in > > > > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the > > > > aegis of > > > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea > > > > were to be > > > > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be > > > > clear > > > > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules > > > > North Korea > > > > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include > > > > Iran, the > > > > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It > > > > is ruled > > > > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > > > > weapons > > > > > and > > > > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and > > > > foreign > > > > > policy. If the international community was justified in operating > > > > a set of > > > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it > > > > should have > > > > > > > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, > > > > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement > > > > support agency > > > > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like > > > > Nawaz > > > > > Sharif. > > > > > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of > > > > British > > > > > foreign > > > > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century presides > > > > over an > > > > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly > > > > Salafist brand > > > > > > > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and > > > > its rented > > > > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the > > > > world. Its > > > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > > > American > > > > > fighter jets. > > > > > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to > > > > the > > > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > > abominations > > > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I > > > > would be > > > > > just > > > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as > > > > I would > > > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat > > > > and in > > > > > India. > > > > > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > > > > > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > > > Higher > > > > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to receive > > > > 200 > > > > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most > > > > heinous > > > > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the > > > > car of > > > > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the > > > > woman > > > > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to be > > > > > > > > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi > > > > Arabia's > > > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > > > > > > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > > > revoked > > > > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary committee > > > > for > > > > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of the > > > > crime > > > > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry > > > > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social > > > > discipline. > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.ne > > > > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919811047132 > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 14:35:07 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:05:07 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712010041i4852ecerbb867d29b3d8804a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990711302229r2cbe66dakecf86791ffe7fe8f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302343v67ae75bp61afa3f4acb62828@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990712010013y1128683aq93a495cc6e12b446@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712010041i4852ecerbb867d29b3d8804a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990712010104p37d13735o64ba45fb50123291@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, Read my mail. What I mentioned (as a personal viewpoint) is 1. Peaceful cohabitation 2. A common due diligence on all issues 3. Either we can look at playing the retribution game with the Army, 'terrorists' and a host of other labelled people being killed and continuing the cycle of death OR We can stop, use our common sense and try and resolve the central issue which is the displacement of people and the semi-warzone status of Kashmir. You mentioned the same in your statement as one whereas they are two seperate issues of the "exodus of 70000 minorities" and "those who are responsible" - whereas for the second I would hold the government liable. In any case, I have not talked of amnesty. Even though you mentioned that some have been released by the court, go ahead and take up the cases as we are all aware of travesty of justice. What I did mention is that to my personal opinion, the return of the displaced people should be worked at first instead of shouts for more death which the valley has seen enough of. Once that has been managed, treat the other issues on a common platform. And yes, I do call that a peaceful resolution. Rgds, Partha ............................................ On Dec 1, 2007 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > And you answer for a peacful solution is general amnesty to all terrorists > & mass murderers and those who are responsible for exodus of 700000 relegios > minorties in Kashmir . > > is that what you find a resolution and that too peaceful ! > > > On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > That *is* what I was talking about. > > > > We can either focus on Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik and other mentioned by > > you and insist upon retribution and death... > > > > Or we can look at trying to achieve peaceful cohabitation in Kashmir, > > and then due diligence on all the issues. > > > > Besides, the killing of Bitta Karate, Yasin Malik, etc., might satisfy > > some blood / revenge thirsty people, but I fail to understand how it will > > resolve any issue. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ............................................................ > > > > > > On Dec 1, 2007 1:13 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Dear Partha , > > > > > > Though I wished to discuss on many points you have expressed , but for > > > a moment I just wanted to ask you a simple question > > > > > > As regards to people like Yasin malik and Bitta karate .....what is > > > your idea of peaceful solution ? > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 12/1/07, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > I think we strayed a bit from what Shuddha mentioned, that is that > > > > he's as against the overtness of the Saudi regime as he is against the Modi > > > > one. What I have been referring to is the opposition of state-sponsored / > > > > encouraged violence that has occured in Gujarat, Nandigram and now the POSCO > > > > incidents. The moment any government needs to take action through non-legal > > > > punitive action, it steps out of the system of checks and balances that the > > > > constitution places upon us which is criminal - all the more so since it's > > > > being done by the very people who are chosen by us to uphold the > > > > constitution. > > > > > > > > On the issue of Babri Masjid / the Ram temple would like to figure > > > > out the logic of 'going back to the basics'. If today we start pulling down > > > > every building place that was once something else and replacing it with > > > > whatever it was, we'd have to knock down the Konarak Temple and even the > > > > North Block and virtually every building. Extremely ridiculous, wouldn't you > > > > agree? > > > > > > > > In any case, I never subscribed to the thought that God resides in a > > > > building. Turning a structure from a mosque to a temple can not take or add > > > > God to that structure. > > > > > > > > I will not talk of 'secular' parties as all parties by the very > > > > nature of their existence are bound to their vote banks. On the other hand, > > > > I certainly stay far from the BJP that is tied by it's core to the RSS and > > > > Hindu ideology - which I believe is incorrect for a party with national > > > > dreams. And I saw the rath yatra in Delhi with the jingoistic slogans, and I > > > > saw the BJP leaders in their double-speak when the court took up the Babri > > > > Masjid case. Typical politicians with forked tongues that mean nothing > > > > except public appeasement and dodging responsibility. However, the BJP > > > > fanaticism makes me distrust them. > > > > > > > > As for Kashmir, there is no one view, and each concerned party has > > > > different wants. Sure, I hear the shouts and I hear of the deaths and the > > > > pain. I hear the anger of people, each with their own bias and perspective. > > > > Do I know the 'ground reality'? > > > > > > > > No. Even if I went there I wouldn't as each 'group' in that > > > > conflict has become fragmented with different demands (that have changed > > > > over time, different 'truths' and different hates. > > > > > > > > Am not an expert on sociology, and certainly not on Kashmir, but I > > > > do like the idea of the killing stopping, a space to breathe and talk, and > > > > to resolve the issues one at a time through dialogue and not guns. Killing > > > > Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate is just another step onwards in the path of death. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, it's easy for me to talk as I've not been dispossesed by that > > > > conflict. > > > > > > > > What I'm trying to ask is what do you really want? A peaceful > > > > resolution or retribution? > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > .................... > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/1/07, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Shuddha Wrote : " One does not have to link the decadence of > > > > > current Saudi > > > > > Arabia to the > > > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > > > abominations > > > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I > > > > > would be just > > > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as > > > > > I would > > > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat > > > > > and in > > > > > India. > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > > > > > > > While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how few of > > > > > you try > > > > > to link everything and anything communal happening with Modi , I > > > > > wonder > > > > > where does your conscience lead to ? > > > > > > > > > > Each time you quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir > > > > > " , > > > > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the > > > > > ground > > > > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a > > > > > terrorist or a > > > > > separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > > > > > figures. > > > > > > > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which happened > > > > > over a > > > > > period of time , but you feel merry to spread discontent among > > > > > minorties by > > > > > harping on a one time incident of Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being destroyed [ > > > > > which > > > > > some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non of you have > > > > > ever > > > > > discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to peices in > > > > > Kashmir . > > > > > > > > > > Each time you talk about liberty of expression and at the same > > > > > time you want > > > > > all these liberties to be taken with Hindu relegion. > > > > > > > > > > Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though > > > > > thay may be > > > > > aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you > > > > > need an anti > > > > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. > > > > > > > > > > Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed > > > > > your > > > > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. > > > > > > > > > > Cmon ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > > > > > state has > > > > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in > > > > > Kashmir . > > > > > > > > > > Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on the > > > > > keyboard. > > > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > > > > > earlier > > > > > > post, > > > > > > and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment > > > > > meted out to a > > > > > > > > > > > > young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in Saudi > > > > > Arabia. > > > > > > > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be > > > > > the > > > > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > > > > > intellectual that > > > > > > > > > > > > I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms > > > > > of > > > > > > evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form > > > > > it takes, > > > > > > no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect for > > > > > people > > > > > > like > > > > > > Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply > > > > > criticize his > > > > > > prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' government's violence > > > > > against > > > > > > its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who > > > > > have been > > > > > > active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's > > > > > military > > > > > > occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all in > > > > > being > > > > > > determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in > > > > > Left Front > > > > > > ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military > > > > > dictatorship in > > > > > > Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the > > > > > aegis of > > > > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea > > > > > were to be > > > > > > discussed on this list, I would be certain that there will be > > > > > clear > > > > > > arguments on this list against the imbecilic regime that rules > > > > > North Korea > > > > > > at the moment. The list can be justifiedly expanded to include > > > > > Iran, the > > > > > > United States, Russia and many other countries and states. > > > > > > > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. > > > > > It is ruled > > > > > > by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > > > > > weapons > > > > > > and > > > > > > influence wielded by British and American corporate intersts and > > > > > foreign > > > > > > policy. If the international community was justified in > > > > > operating a set of > > > > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it > > > > > should have > > > > > > > > > > > > no business in cosying up to the sexist, slave-owning, > > > > > xenophobic, > > > > > > anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the favourite retirement > > > > > support agency > > > > > > of third rate dictators like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like > > > > > Nawaz > > > > > > Sharif. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of > > > > > British > > > > > > foreign > > > > > > policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century > > > > > presides over an > > > > > > imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the particularly > > > > > Salafist brand > > > > > > > > > > > > of Islam that is held out as an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and > > > > > its rented > > > > > > clerics is rightly rejected by the majority of Muslims in the > > > > > world. Its > > > > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > > > > American > > > > > > fighter jets. > > > > > > > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia > > > > > to the > > > > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > > > abominations > > > > > > that need to be fought, and fought till they are destroyed. I > > > > > would be > > > > > > just > > > > > > as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, > > > > > as I would > > > > > > be to see the short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in > > > > > Gujarat and in > > > > > > India. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes-and > > > > > > > > > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > > > > Higher > > > > > > > Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to > > > > > receive 200 > > > > > > > lashes and prison while the perpetrators of humanity's most > > > > > heinous > > > > > > > crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men > > > > > was > > > > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the > > > > > car of > > > > > > > an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However after the > > > > > woman > > > > > > > had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting herself to > > > > > be > > > > > > > tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi > > > > > Arabia's > > > > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has > > > > > been > > > > > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > > > > revoked > > > > > > > and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary > > > > > committee for > > > > > > > challenging the judgment, which only punished the victim of > > > > > the crime > > > > > > > and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a > > > > > paltry > > > > > > > sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > > > > > > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage > > > > > heinous > > > > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social > > > > > discipline. > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.ne > > > > > > > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > +919811047132 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 15:35:52 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:05:52 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Musee Guimet Press Conference Message-ID: For anyone in Dhaka, there is a press conference starting approx. 4pm BDT at protesting sending of artifacts to Musee Guimet while the citizen's case was still pending. http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/11/30/guimet-protests/ Gallery Shilpangan Road 3/A Dhanmondi Today (Dec 1). From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 16:12:03 2007 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:42:03 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Papers: Water and Cinema Message-ID: Voices from the Waters Call for Papers The brewing storm of Pather Panchali, love, drizzle, umbrellas and sidewalks of Shri 420, the constant downpour of the industrial future in 'Blade Runner'… the liquid grace of water has always fine tuned the iconic scenes of cinema. Cinema owes this blue elixir heightened emotions and delicate charm. As this magical resource increasingly becomes scarce, as the drought sets in, as it is tagged with a price, Deep Focus Film Quarterly proposes to dedicate the April 2008 edition to the cause and celebration of that precious bounty, WATER. We invite well-researched articles on the theme of water in cinema. These may include articles on short and full length feature films and documentaries based in the context of water issues- water scarcity, dams, droughts, floods, global climate change, deforestation, conservation and water as culture and life, interviews with filmmaker-activists working in the field of water and articles tracing the relationship of water and cinema over the ages. Articles having a word-count of between 2000 to 4000 should be neatly typed with double spacing and should reach us by 28th February 2008. It is very important to include film stills to illustrate your article. Please mail in your articles at deep.focus at rediffmail.com, bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com The Editor, Deep Focus Film Quarterly, 33/1-9, Thyagaraja Layout, Jai Bharath Nagar, M.S. Nagar P.O., Bangalore- 560 033. From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Dec 1 16:59:34 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 11:29:34 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> Dear Pawan, I am well aware of the ground realities of any situation I choose to write about. I am sure, that you must be aware by now that I make it my business to research anything that I write about on the reader list in some detail. I suggest you take a close look at your own levels of awareness of what you claim as your own history (I notice, for instance, that there is as yet no reply from you or Rashneek to my annotations on the history of iconoclasm in Kashmir). And no, I am neither a member, nor a sympathizer of any "M-L type of organization". I would urge you not to make public assumptions about the biographies of individuals you do not know. It's risky, you end up running the risk of being called either a liar, or being exposed as being very ignorant. You also run the risk of being accused (rightly, in my opinion) of defamation if you continue to articulate assumptions of this nature on any public platform. So, be careful. I think that your problem is that you want to put people into neat boxes, on which you want to put labels that your limited understand can make snese of, and then assign you assign to these lablels - roles in the shadow boxing joust of your own imagination. So, first you decided that you would corner us by sending us the details of the atrocities of so called communist regimes, then, when we argued that the atrocities of so called communist regimes are indefensible, you changed tack. When we argued strongly against the atrocities of regimes led by communist parties, such as has happenned in West Bengal, you turned around and defended Buddhadeb Bhattacharya. You tried to invoke Sethusamudran, then, when we said yes, Sethusamudran was a bad idea, you had no space left to squirm. Then you post some atrocity in Saudi Arabia, and we say, yes Saudi Arabia is hell, and now, you have less and less room to maneuver. Really, it must be hard being you. Finally, whenever you have nothing left to say, when your arguments are in shambles, when your misrepresentations stand exposed, you invoke and hurl the term 'intellectual' as a term of abuse. As if the work of evolving a critical understanding of the world were something to be ashamed of. I see no reason to be ashamed of intellectual work, just as I see no reason to be ashamed or any other kind of human activity. Can you imagine a situation where we would go around churlishly accusing each other of being 'pastry cooks', or 'dancers' or 'acrobats' or 'steelworkers' or 'photo shop operators' whenever we were faced with the weakness of our own positions and arguments. It would be absured. It would actually be pathetic. And when you cry 'intellectual' you sound just as absurd, just as pathetic, just as infantile. You write, you argue, you try to present your view of the world. Unfortunately, that makes you an intellectual. Just as what I do makes me an intellectual. There can be debate about the quality of our arguments, about how well they stand up to reason, and to the complexities of our times. There can be arguments about whether or not our intellectual work is of any value. But accusing people of being 'intellectuals' per se, is frankly, neither here, nor there. It is a meaningless statement. We all have a lot of things to do in our lives. And believe me, arguing with you is only a very minor, highly insignificant detail in the rich tapestry of our days. Regardless, it shall continue to be done, whenever it is crucially necessary for it to be done. Take my advice, relax, chill out, think about a few things other than what you have made your pet obsession, and don't jump to the gun all the time. You misfire, badly. And sometimes the bullets ricochet in your own direction. Or as we might say in football parlance "self-goal se bachte raho saathi" ("stay clear of self goals, friend") regards Shuddha On 10:42 am 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" wrote: > > Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at how > few of you try to link everything and anything communal happening with > Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead to ? Each time you > quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or > a separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > figures. Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which > happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread > discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of > Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being > destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non > of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to > peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of expression and > at the same time you want all these liberties to be taken with Hindu > relegion. Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even > though thay may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the > same time you need an anti allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist > as well. Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have > closed your thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. Cmon > ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state has > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in > Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on > the keyboard. Pawan Durani > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Pawan, > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > post, and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment > meted out to a young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in > Saudi Arabia. > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual > that I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms > of evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > takes, no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect > for people like Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to > sharply criticize his prevaricating apology for the 'Left > Front' government's violence against its own subjects in West > Bengal > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have > been active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's > military occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all > in being determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in > Left Front ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military > dictatorship in Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs > under the aegis of the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if > North Korea were to be discussed on this list, I would be certain > that there will be clear arguments on this list against the imbecilic > regime that rules North Korea at the moment. The list can be > justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the United States, Russia and > many other countries and states. > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > ruled by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > weapons and influence wielded by British and American corporate > intersts and foreign policy. If the international community was > justified in operating a set of sanctions against the hated South > African apartheid regime, it should have no business in cosying up to > the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, anti-semitic Saudi regime which > is the favourite retirement support agency of third rate dictators > like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz Sharif. > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > foreign policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century > presides over an imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the > particularly Salafist brand of Islam that is held out as an ideal by > the Saudi monarchy and its rented clerics is rightly rejected by the > majority of Muslims in the world. Its significance lies only in that > it is backed by petro-dollars and American fighter jets. > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > abominations that need to be fought, and fought till they are > destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism > perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the short, sharp end of > Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. > > regards. > > Shuddha > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> > wrote: > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes- > and > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > Higher Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to > > receive 200 lashes and prison while the perpetrators of > > humanity's most heinous crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car > > of an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However > > after the woman had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting > > herself to be tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on > > Saudi Arabia's Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her > > punishment for attempting to influence the judiciary through the > > media. > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > revoked and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary > > committee for challenging the judgment, which only punished the > > victim of the crime and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists > > were given a paltry sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.ne t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 22:47:11 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:17:11 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> Hello Shudha , NamaskAr.........Hope you dont term me a rightist for using "NamaskAr" word. I could sense from your mail the anger and helplessness you feel . Before you advise me to chill , please apply that to yourself. I still do not understand as to if arguing with me is so insignificant or minor , what motivates you to reply to each of my post even if really doesn't matter . I know somewhere you know the truth as well , and it is an ego in you which keeps you defending yourself and attacking my nationalistic viewpoint. If I write about Pseudo secularists in general , you take it as an insult to yourself . If I talk about hollow intellectualism which some believe in ,you again take it so personally . C'mon .....Chill. I may be referring about someone else as well. Well , about your research about iconoclasm , the less said the better . My knowledge about Kashmir has its roots well before google was invented. And for those who want to make rest of world believe that humans came out of eggs, google would help them write long long stories. About my posts on various subject, i believe Partha may like to confirm it .,....i have at many instances posted an article which I found interesting . And whenever someone replied , i just said that these views were not necessarily mine . I always provide a link to the original. I do not blame you for not understanding these basics......i have learnt it long back.....it may take you few more years. And about your threat of defamation , well I am scared. So should others be in this society of double standards . Where a person defends Hussain but is planning to to encourage people to file a defamation against me. I wonder what others have to say about threat of Shudha. I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write the word Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual again..... But are you one for real ? Pawan On 12/1/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > I am well aware of the ground realities of any situation I choose to write > about. I am sure, that you must be aware by now that I make it my business > > to research anything that I write about on the reader list in some detail. > > I suggest you take a close look at your own levels of awareness of what > you > claim as your own history (I notice, for instance, that there is as yet no > > reply from you or Rashneek to my annotations on the history of iconoclasm > in Kashmir). > > And no, I am neither a member, nor a sympathizer of any "M-L type of > organization". I would urge you not to make public assumptions about the > biographies of individuals you do not know. It's risky, you end up running > the risk of being called either a liar, or being exposed as being very > ignorant. You also run the risk of being accused (rightly, in my opinion) > of defamation if you continue to articulate assumptions of this nature on > any public platform. So, be careful. > > I think that your problem is that you want to put people into neat boxes, > on which you want to put labels that your limited understand can make > snese > of, and then assign you assign to these lablels - roles in the shadow > boxing joust of your own imagination. So, first you decided that you would > corner us by sending us the details of the atrocities of so called > communist regimes, then, when we argued that the atrocities of so called > communist regimes are indefensible, you changed tack. When we argued > strongly against the atrocities of regimes led by communist parties, such > as has happenned in West Bengal, you turned around and defended Buddhadeb > Bhattacharya. > > You tried to invoke Sethusamudran, then, when we said yes, Sethusamudran > was a bad idea, you had no space left to squirm. Then you post some > atrocity in Saudi Arabia, and we say, yes Saudi Arabia is hell, and now, > you have less and less room to maneuver. Really, it must be hard being > you. > > Finally, whenever you have nothing left to say, when your arguments are in > > shambles, when your misrepresentations stand exposed, you invoke and hurl > the term 'intellectual' as a term of abuse. As if the work of evolving a > critical understanding of the world were something to be ashamed of. I see > > no reason to be ashamed of intellectual work, just as I see no reason to > be > ashamed or any other kind of human activity. Can you imagine a situation > where we would go around churlishly accusing each other of being 'pastry > cooks', or 'dancers' or 'acrobats' or 'steelworkers' or 'photo shop > operators' whenever we were faced with the weakness of our own positions > and arguments. It would be absured. It would actually be pathetic. And > when > you cry 'intellectual' you sound just as absurd, just as pathetic, just as > infantile. > > You write, you argue, you try to present your view of the world. > Unfortunately, that makes you an intellectual. Just as what I do makes me > an intellectual. There can be debate about the quality of our arguments, > about how well they stand up to reason, and to the complexities of our > times. There can be arguments about whether or not our intellectual work > is > of any value. But accusing people of being 'intellectuals' per se, is > frankly, neither here, nor there. It is a meaningless statement. > > We all have a lot of things to do in our lives. And believe me, arguing > with you is only a very minor, highly insignificant detail in the rich > tapestry of our days. Regardless, it shall continue to be done, whenever > it > is crucially necessary for it to be done. Take my advice, relax, chill > out, > think about a few things other than what you have made your pet obsession, > and don't jump to the gun all the time. You misfire, badly. And sometimes > the bullets ricochet in your own direction. Or as we might say in football > > parlance "self-goal se bachte raho saathi" ("stay clear of self goals, > friend") > > regards > > Shuddha > > > On 10:42 am 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and looking at > how > > few of you try to link everything and anything communal happening with > > Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead to ? Each time you > > quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir " , > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of the ground > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or > > a separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > > figures. Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which > > happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread > > discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of > > Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being > > destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same time non > > of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken down to > > peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of expression and > > at the same time you want all these liberties to be taken with Hindu > > relegion. Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even > > though thay may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the > > same time you need an anti allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist > > as well. Each time you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have > > closed your thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. Cmon > > ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian state has > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti people in > > Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than typing few words on > > the keyboard. Pawan Durani > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Pawan, > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an earlier > > post, and as is evident from your posting of the brutal treatment > > meted out to a young woman who has been the victim of gang rape in > > Saudi Arabia. > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be the > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of intellectual > > that I find interesting it the one who has no problem at all in terms > > of evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what form it > > takes, no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect > > for people like Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to > > sharply criticize his prevaricating apology for the 'Left > > Front' government's violence against its own subjects in West > > Bengal > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who have > > been active on this list in arguing against the Indian state's > > military occupation of the Kashmir valley have had no problems at all > > in being determined in our opposition to oppression when it occurs in > > Left Front ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of military > > dictatorship in Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs > > under the aegis of the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if > > North Korea were to be discussed on this list, I would be certain > > that there will be clear arguments on this list against the imbecilic > > regime that rules North Korea at the moment. The list can be > > justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the United States, Russia and > > many other countries and states. > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. It is > > ruled by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by money, > > weapons and influence wielded by British and American corporate > > intersts and foreign policy. If the international community was > > justified in operating a set of sanctions against the hated South > > African apartheid regime, it should have no business in cosying up to > > the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, anti-semitic Saudi regime which > > is the favourite retirement support agency of third rate dictators > > like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz Sharif. > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of British > > foreign policy in the middle east in the early twentieth century > > presides over an imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the > > particularly Salafist brand of Islam that is held out as an ideal by > > the Saudi monarchy and its rented clerics is rightly rejected by the > > majority of Muslims in the world. Its significance lies only in that > > it is backed by petro-dollars and American fighter jets. > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia to the > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > abominations that need to be fought, and fought till they are > > destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism > > perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the short, sharp end of > > Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. > > > > regards. > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-lashes- > > and > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi Arabia's > > > Higher Judicial Council has actually sentenced a rape victim to > > > receive 200 lashes and prison while the perpetrators of > > > humanity's most heinous crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in the car > > > of an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However > > > after the woman had the temerity of not unquestioningly submitting > > > herself to be tortured as punishment of being raped, the judges on > > > Saudi Arabia's Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her > > > punishment for attempting to influence the judiciary through the > > > media. > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has been > > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > > revoked and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary > > > committee for challenging the judgment, which only punished the > > > victim of the crime and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists > > > were given a paltry sentence of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social discipline. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.ne t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > From kokopeli at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 23:27:15 2007 From: kokopeli at gmail.com (Sujata & Samantak) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:15 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] "Final" Interim Report on Citizens' Visit to Nandigram In-Reply-To: <556b1d6b0711301153x1899c04bvde0351d7917ac6ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <556b1d6b0711301153x1899c04bvde0351d7917ac6ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556b1d6b0712010957y1a463168pd19fbc262f8d5b7c@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, As mentioned in my earlier post, here's the "Final" Interim Report. One member of this list asked, "Was it interim report, where all the balancing acts were incomplete, so have to be given finishing touches by the spin doctors of media?" In fact it wasn't. The report had been prepared by friends, who asked me to write to all those I'd sent the report to telling them that some more information would be included in the "final" interim report. Since you have both versions of the interim report, you can judge for yourself whether it has been subjected to "spin" or not. Thank you. Samantak ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Trina Banerjee < trina.banerjee at gmail.com> Date: 30 Nov 2007 12:11 Subject: Final Interim Report :) Dear All, Here's the *FINAL Interim Report* (sounds mighty strange, I realise, but there it is) about our Nandigram visit on the 24rth.I apologize for the delay and the confusion. Do delete the earlier version and take this as our Interim Report. If you have already sent the last version out, as I know some of you have: do take the trouble to send this version out too. If any of you would like to see photos from our visit, write to me personally...I have some, I'll send them over. We've tried to avoid photographing people we've interviewed for safety reasons, but you will get a general idea of the way things look in Nandigram. We wish to take this citizens' initiative forward with further visits, especially with students and teachers...so if you have any ideas/thoughts you'd like to share urgently, do write in to me (along with a note to say whether I have the permission to share those thoughts/ideas/plans with other people who are/wish to be part of the initiative). Lots of love Trina. - -- Trina Nileena Banerjee Doctoral Fellow Centre for Studies in Social Sciences Calcutta. *Final Interim Report of an Independent Citizens' Team from Kolkata * *on the Current State of Affairs in Nandigram* *30 November 2007* As a result of an initiative instituted by women's groups, women's organizations and individuals, an eleven-member women's team of concerned citizens from Kolkata comprising teachers, social activists, researchers and students visited Nandigram on 24 November 2007. Concerned about the repeated disruption of peace in the region, the members decided to visit the affected areas and talk to the local people, with the objectives of showing solidarity with the survivors of violence, documenting people's needs in the current circumstances, and drawing up recommendations based on their understanding of the situation. The people who constituted this team were Kavita Panjabi, Anuradha Kapoor, Rajashri Dasgupta, Saswati Ghosh, Shyamoli Das, Swapna Banerjee, Trina Nileena Banerjee, Shuktara Lal, Sushmita Sinha, Shubhasree Bhattacharya and Sourinee Mirdha. On arrival in Nandigram at the Relief Camp at Brij Mohan Tiwari Shiksha Niketan, the team split into two groups. One talked to the people in the Relief Camp, the other to a woman who had been sexually assaulted and the injured in Nandigram Hospital. One group then proceeded to the villages of Sonachura and Garchakraberia, also stopping at the Bhangaberia Bridge where the CRPF is stationed; the other half of the team went to the village of Daudpur. This interim report comprises the general findings and recommendations of all the members of the team that visited Nandigram on the 24th of November. The specific testimonies and individual stories will be included in the final report. * * *PRIMARY FINDINGS:** * 1) Overall there is a reign of terror; the people are marked by deep fear, disillusionment and depression. Since January, Nandigram has been marked by the violence of the State in tandem with the ruling CPI(M), and the retaliatory attacks by the BUPC[1]<#116921e9aeba257e_1169218d5a46c521__ftn1>. The massive attack of the state on the BUPC procession in March 14th, 2007, clearly violated all democratic norms and involved armed police, para-military forces, as well as armed party cadres, including rampant shooting and widespread sexual abuse of women. Subsequently, in numerous villages post March 14, there were reports that many CPI(M) supporters were forced to flee to relief camps in Khejuri and that their homes were ransacked and looted by BUPC supporters. There has been continued violence since on both sides. However, the build up in the area of the CPI(M) militia, the *Harmad Bahini*, the brutal firing by CPI(M) cadres on November 6, 2007 of BUPC members in Satengabari, Ranichak, Bhangabera and Sonachura, and the torching of nine villages including Simulkunda and Satengabari, followed by the attack on November 10, 2007 at Maheshpur village in Nandigram, when armed CPI(M) cadres fired bullets indiscriminately at a peace rally organised by BUPC with the police taking no steps to intervene, all demonstrate the scale and might of the violence exercised by the ruling CPI(M), with the full support of the State. 2) The people of Nandigram are now living in terror of the CPI(M) which has now taken over most of the Nandigram villages and is out to extract vengeance on the BUPC and its supporters. Criminals who have killed, sexually assaulted and injured people continue to threaten the population of the villages. Many who had tried to return to their villages but had to come back to the Relief Camp spoke of bombs and firing that they heard even on the 23rd night when they had tried to return to their homes. And the night-time threats, especially against women, also continue. Across all the villages, people testified to the complete loss of political freedom – they are being forced to pledge their allegiance to one particular party or the other, and they talked angrily about their right to decide which party they wanted to support. The people in the camp, as well as the majority in the villages, have lost all confidence in the government, administration and police. 3) At the Relief Camp at Brij Mohan Tiwari Shiksha Niketan in Nandigram town, villagers testified to rampant firing, brutal killing and large-scale threats by the cadres of the CPI(M), the ruling party, across the villages of Gokulnagar, Kalicharanpur, Adhikaripara, Simulkunda and Satengabari. About 20-25,000 people have left their homes according to people in the camps. Of them, 3000 to 3500 people had been living in this camp approximately 1500 of whom were still there on 24th November. The People's Health doctors working in the Relief Camp said they had not received any complaints of sexual or physical assault, but mainly children's health related complaints, like cough, fever, diarrhoea. However, many people in the camps carried scars of deep bullet injuries on their faces, stomachs and legs and women told us about a woman who had been gang raped in Satengabari by 6-7 men, who is now in Tamluk hospital. Both her daughters, one about 17, one younger, were abducted. They are still missing. Further, hundreds of women who had fled Kalicharanpur, Adhikaripara, Simulkunda and Satengabari in fear of sexual assault were still in the Nandigram camp. They testified that not only had their homes been looted and burnt down, in villages like Satengabari they had also been severely threatened by CPI(M) cadres, who came around saying "We'll come back at night – light your lamps and wait for us with open doors. Send your men away, we'll come back to you at night." "How can we stay in a place under such threats?" the women asked. Women of these villages are still living in fear of being sexually abused, and young girls have been sent to relatives' homes elsewhere. The fear and insecurity of the villagers – especially the women at the Nandigram camp – has been so high that they have refused to go back to their villages till the CRPF is posted there to ensure their safety and protect them from the violent vengeance of the *Harmad Bahini* comprising CPI(M) cadres. 4) Extensive physical abuse and sexual abuse of women, ranging from rape and forcing of rods into women's vaginas, to rampant sexual harassment, as well as abduction of girls has been reported since March this year, but not much has been done to provide relief to the women, or to initiate investigation against and punish the perpetrators. Such violence against women continues, accompanied by terrifying threats, and there is no evidence of any steps having been taken to curb either. 5) Some of the people who had participated in the unarmed march to Maheshpur on 10th November were arrested and locked up for three days in the school building. The women were subjected to repeated sexual harassment by male CPI(M) cadres who claimed the women were Maoists. 6) In villages such as Garchakraberia, where the CRPF has already been posted, normal life and activity seem to have returned; however, there is simmering tension and fear under the facade of peace. At night, when CRPF personnel go off vigil, assailants begin their attacks again; so people have been forced to flee their homes at night and take shelter elsewhere from fear of reprisal. Villagers claim this is a forced calm and are terrified of what may happen when the CRPF is withdrawn. 7) Some residents of Sonachura also expressed their anger and frustration at the TMC leaders of the BUPC for keeping their own women safe at home, while forcing other women in the villages to join the BUPC marches and threatening to beat and burn down the homes of all who refused. Many people in Sonachura were also scared of admitting to the violence they have faced from the CPI(M), claiming that they had been threatened into silence. 8) The situation in Daudpur is still very tense and the administration should take immediate measures to address this. There is resentment and anger brewing among the villagers. People openly accuse each other of violence while questioning the authority and corruption of particular CPI(M) leaders. Some villagers also claimed that the BUPC forced people to volunteer to stand as night guards against the armed attacks from CPI(M)'s *Harmad Bahini* after 28 October. 9) Villagers testified that the police are playing a partisan role. BUPC members returning to their villages were being arrested, some on false charges. Others are being levied exorbitant "fines" to "compensate for the damages done to the CPI(M) families in the last 11 months." Complaints about the atrocities of the CPI(M) followers were either not registered, or the accused were released after being arrested, without any of the legal procedures being followed. 10) The senior police officer at the Relief Camp refused to comment on most of our questions. He i) hinted at pressure from some political parties ii) implied that work was being made "difficult" due to "interference" iii) said peace is returning to the villages, but the situation is "still difficult". 11) While language is proving to be a barrier for the CRPF in dealing with the volatile situation here, there are apparent efforts to restore peace, including red-flag processions etc. But the atmosphere outside the temporary 'protection' of the Relief Camp is of extreme terror. In spite of all apparent efforts and assurance on the part of the authorities, this terror is persistent. 12) There is a tremendous breakdown of trust. The villages of Nandigram are zones of pregnant silence today – they are zones of seething fear, terror, suspicion and threat. Common people are suffering and living in fear and their tragedy is heightened because of the partisan role played by the police * * *RECOMMENDATIONS:* 1. Non-partisan, just and effective action on the part of the State is the most basic and critical factor for restoring peace in Nandigram. The government must strengthen administrative structures and ensure impartial and immediate action on the part of the administration to instill confidence in the people and normalize the situation in Nandigram. Conditions must be created for people to renew their daily social and economic activities without fear and apprehension of reprisal. 2. The violence in Nandigram must be stopped. i) All arms in the possession of the entire population of all the villages of Nandigram must be confiscated. ii) The area must be rid of all outside cadres. iii) All criminals, irrespective of political affiliation must be arrested immediately and tried; and iv) effective vigilance should be set in place against all those indulging in retaliatory and revengeful acts that will derail the peace process. 3. We demand responsible action now from all the political partiestoo. They must stop exploiting the situation, abstain from violence, and play a constructive role in bringing peace back to Nandigram. 4. Rape and sexual assault have clearly become dominant weapons of war in the crossfire between vested political interests in Nandigram. i) Urgent measures must be taken by the administration and the police to stop this immediately. ii) Perpetrators have been resorting to sexual assault on women to intimidate, humiliate and subjugate the opposition, while the opposition has been using incidents of rape to discredit the perpetrators, not to seek justice for the women affected. We demand a complete and immediate stop to such practices and to all threats of sexual violence too. 5. The administration should also ensure that all rape cases are registered, thoroughly investigated, and followed up. Cases where women have been brutally assaulted should also receive the attention they merit and should not be brushed aside merely because the case was not one of rape. Sexual assault is a serious offence and must be dealt with as such. All victims of sexual assault must be provided immediate medical treatment and their privacy respected and dignity upheld. 6. Both men, and large numbers of women, especially those subject to sexual assault and/or rape, are now severely traumatized and have sunk into visibly deep depression or shock. The government should set up a counselling cell in Nandigram or authorize an NGO to do so for the purpose of trauma alleviation. 7. Those who are suffering from the latest violence, as well as those who have been injured earlier in the year, cannot afford the medicationrequired. Many cannot work as they could earlier. On both counts, their livelihood is adversely affected. Compensation to the injured and raped, and to the families of the dead should be made available on an urgent footing. Women and children have been the worst sufferers of the violence; attention should be paid to their special needs, and efforts made to restore their dignity and confidence in the process of rehabilitation. The SDO/BDO should ensure that the grant promised to repair houses must be distributed without any partisan preference. 8. The presence of the CRPF can ensure only a temporary and forced calm. This is no solution to the reign of terror. The state must set in place peacemaking efforts, and involve all political parties and people's organisations in the region to renew the democratic process and enable citizens to reclaim the lost democratic space for a lasting and just peace in the area. People's political rights must be ensured. Democracy does not mean the rule of the majority, but ensuring the rights and respect of the minority and those holding opposing political opinions and beliefs too. Concerted efforts have to be made, across all political differences, to control the spate of vengeance, and rebuild the confidence of the people of Nandigram who are living with violence as well as the fear of violence on a day to day basis. __________________________ - ------------------------------ [1] <#116921e9aeba257e_1169218d5a46c521__ftnref1> The Bhumi Uchhed Pratirodh Committee (BUPC) is a committee formed by people across the villages of Nandigram in January 2007, to represent the people's movement against the complete absence of democratic processes in the state's move to acquire land for setting up an SEZ. While the state has subsequently announced a withdrawal of its plans to build an SEZ here, the people of Nandigram have no faith in this declaration as they have received no official document to that effect as yet. Nandigram had been a predominantly CPI(M) area till the beginning of this year. The BUPC membership cut across all political parties and included supporters of the ruling CPI(M), the TMC, the BJP, and the SUCI, and the people adopted a black flag as symbol of the BUPC to emphasize its independence as a committee beyond any particular party affiliation. Across the year the TMC has gained force in Nandigram and taken over the BUPC leadership. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 23:43:19 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:13:19 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir - Distortions & Reality Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712011013y8a19efdldbd618fce782065e@mail.gmail.com> Calling the Shankaracharya hill as *koh-i-Sulaiman* and ancient temple thereon as *Takht-i-Sulaiman* is a later day ruse started sometime in the 19th century by some fanatical Muslims of Kashmir to complete the process of Islamisation of the historically known places of Hindu worship in the Valley and also to bury deep for ever the Hindu past of Kashmir. It is in line with the demolition of the then famous Hindu temple of *Maharshi* (Vishnu) and the erection thereon of a structure known now as Jama Masjid, conversion of the *Mahakali Temple* near Fatehkdal, Srinagar into the present * Shah-i-Hamadan* mosque, and the *Ekadasharudra* (Shiva) temple in Khanyar, Srinagar into the Ziarat Dastgir Sahib, not to speak of hundreds of temples throughout the Valley which were earlier destroyed completely or converted into mosques, ziarats and dargahs, during the Muslim rule in Kashmir (14th to 18th century A.D.) Read The Complete Book by clicking below :- http://ikashmir.net/distortionsreality/index.html From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 00:51:00 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 19:21:00 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Tintin in Bengal, or Musee Guimet Controversy Message-ID: Tintin in Bengal, or Musee Guimet Controversy Naeem Mohaiemen The two month simmering controversy in Bangladesh over the countroversial loan of priceless, centuries old artifacts to France's Musee Guimet burst into the open yesterday. In the early dawn hours of Friday, a day when many of us are sleeping in, relaxing, addafying, or contemplating unfinished art projects, a convoy of trucks were loaded with crates of artifacts from the National Museum. Headed to ZIA airport, en route to Paris. Is Paris burning, what's the rush..? The French Embassy and some Bangladesh government officials had decided that matters had dragged on long enough. The show was supposed to open 24th October, but Bangladesh citizen groups had thrown a chaku in the works. With a citizens lawsuit blocking the loan, and an investigative committee deadline 45 days away, the first shipment got underway in defiance of good manners and international law. Word leaked out, and protesters gathered. Gates were scaled, human chains formed, a protester was arrested. But the dawn tactics had worked. By the time more people arrived on the scene, the trucks were on their way. Positions hardened further after the truck fiasco. On the evening news, angry phone calls. Apparently some ground staff at the airport did all they could to block the flight. This actually doesn't take much-- just our normal airport bureacracy (which I was cursing out only a month ago when my video camera was falling prey to it) raised a few notches. The Air France cargo plane sat on the tarmac, missing its midnight rendezvous. But finally five hours later, in dawn hours of Saturday, up up and away. When the controversy first broke, many of us were too confused to take sides. On both sides of the fence were cultural producers and activists whom many of us respected. Even the lawyers representing two parties were familiar rights activists. One friend said to me "boba r shotru nai (the deaf-mute has no enemies), best to stay silent bhai. Too many big guns on both sides." The opposition to the loan initially felt like kneejerk nationalism to me. In my naivette I dismissed their concerns. The French are the good guys no, isn't it Americans we are all afraid of now? Surely the French wouldn't dare do anything to our collection, uhh would they..? I spent way too much time reading Tintin comics in my wasted youth. But Tintin in Congo remained untranslated until I found a bootleg copy where Tintin is teaching the African natives "repeat after me, France is your mother". Now I imagined myself as a rubber-lipped sambo. Yessa boss. Did King Leopold collect art as well? I went down to the Alliance Francaise cafe, 5 blocks from my home, to investigate. Alliance administers a benevolent patriarch attitude towards the uninvited unwashed at special events (expats in Dhaka live in splendid bubbles and green zone fortresses). But in the daytime (and at non-guest list events) you can just stroll in. Why did the Guimet want this show so badly? They had already missed the show opening deadline. If there was so much opposition inside Bangladesh, shouldn't they at least show courtesy and sensitivity and delay until the issue is resolved? Tish tosh explained the man at the next table: "the people who oppose the loan just don't want the world to know that this region has such an incredible pre-Islamic heritage." Sounds reasonable. Those who oppose this loan are the enemies of globalization. But then why would Shishir Bhattacharjee, professor at Art College, be one of those opposing the loan. He's always been on the mullah's hitlist of progressive professors... A few days later I saw artist Nisar Hossein's name on the same committee. That's odd I thought, Nisar is no dum-dum either. But it's true that the people opposing the loan were initially not good communicators. Their opposition was often focused on the esoteric edges of the debate, rather than the hard facts. But in the last few weeks they started producing more documentation, and more importantly, footnotes. That's when things changed for many of us, because the facts on the ground don't make you oppose loans to European museums per se, but they do highlight that numerous rules have been broken-- all adding up to extreme lack of safety for the collection. More facts emerged, by and by... 1. Lack of documentation a) entire sets of coins catalogued as "coins", with no specifics b) missing accession numbers c) mismatch between number of pieces documented by the French photographer who catalogued the show, the number given in French embassy contract, and the number in Embassy's press release d) incomplete descriptions, missing descriptions e) ridiculously low insurance value of 4 million Euros, for a collection that dates back to 4th century BC. An international archaeological expert has since called this appraisal "financial fraud". 2. The French role There's no doubt that some of the items in #1 were caused by sheer incompetence and possible mal-intentions of the Bangladesh side. But if Bangladesh officials are incapable of protecting their own national heritage (Bangladesh has been identified as one of 3 countries most vulnerable to cultural looting) should the French government, French Embassy and Musee Guimet take advantage of that weakness? a) Musee Guimet is one of 18 museums that have signed a Declaration on Importance and Value of Universal Museums, which opposes returning art works, especially ancient ones, to their original owners. This is in direct opposition to the UNESCO Convention on Stolen and Illegally Exported Cultural Objects (1995). b) Kwame Opoku has said: "Musée Guimet in Paris which incidentally also holds thousands of stolen/illegal objects from China and the rest of Asia" has increased citizen debate about the lending. c) Guimet director Jean-Francois Jarriage in the late 50's had worked in the department of archeology in Bangladesh (then East Pakistan). During this period, one of the most prized artefacts, a relic casket was taken to France for restoration. Mr. Zakaria, former secretary of the ministry of culture has been unsuccessfully campaigning for the return of the casket for the last 49 years. 3. What next? Now the action moves to France. One shipment of 10 crates is already in Paris. Another shipment of 13 crates may leave very soon as well (another midnight haul?). Bangladeshi activists are starting to petition European media to start building up pressure on Guimet and the French government. Paris-based Bangladeshi artist Shahabuddin and others are planning human chains in front of the Guimet. How far is Guimet willing to go to keep this show. How far are we willing to go? Positions have hardened into stone after Friday's confrontation. An initial draft of the Experts' Letter to the French Government (full letter @ end of this email) included this conciliatory paragraph: "We urge the French government and citizens, museum professionals, preservationists and all global cultural practitioners to demand that Musee Guimet immediately cease plans for the "Masterpieces of the Ganges Delta" show until each archaeological artifact in the Bangladesh collection has been examined, photographed, catalogued, appraised and insurance value set by an international panel of experts. Guimet must also take all due diligence steps to resolve the discrepancy between documents, number of items, accession numbers and all other issues that have given rise to questions about lack of transparency in the entire process." But Friday's surprise shipment, and police action against protesters, have hardened suspicion of the Guimet. The concluding paragraph now reads: "While we were originally open to the idea of showing the work at Musee Guimet provided the transparency issues were addressed, the recent actions of the museum has removed any semblance of trust in the organisation, and we are no longer willing to loan our prized possessions to an organisation with such standards of behaviour. The incident, originally restricted to the issue of an exhibition now appears to have created a general distrust in the French government amongst the Bangladeshi public." Bangladesh gets such a small share of international cultural attention, the prevailing attitude is that any positive global attention is good. Especially after being hit by both flood and cyclone (two months apart) this year, some people may be yearning for some positive international image building. This has historically led to a broken-spine approach to European and Northern cultural institutions. The face-off with Musee Guimet shows that things are changing. Fine Arts Professor Lalarukh Selim said on ETV: "Governments will come and go, but the objects that have left the country, we may never get them back. And we couldn't do anything, or what we did was not enough. All of us who spoke up, the French embassy gave that no value. We're a poor country, so people could do whatever they wanted." Could they? Will they? Guimet, this is not over. - Naeem Mohaiemen ################### Further Reading: ################### 1. Protesters Battle Police As Musee Guimet Trucks Roll Out http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/11/30/guimet-protests/ 2. Shahidul Alam: Price of Priceless Objects http://shahidul.wordpress.com/2007/11/29/the-price-of-priceless-objects/ 3. Letter To The French Government & Citizens Subject: Musee Guimet's Non-Transparent Borrowing of Priceless Artifacts from Bangladesh We the undersigned artists, archeologists, anthropologists, academics & other concerned citizens of Bangladesh are writing to express our strong objection to the manner in which Musee Guimet of Paris is taking invaluable artifacts from the national museum and four other leading museums of Bangladesh for a planned show entitled "Masterpieces of the Ganges delta". The Musee Guimet transported the artifacts even after widespread protests and a pending citizens' lawsuit in the Bangladesh court. The manner in which the artifacts were transported, in a secret crating during early morning hours under police guard, added to the controversy. As news of the secret shipment leaked out, protesters gathered to form a human chain, and one protester was arrested. Finally, the first shipment of 10 crates of rare archaeological treasures was taken away, despite resistance, to be flown to Paris on December 1st on an Air France cargo plane. There is also a second shipment of 13 crates which is still pending. While the exhibition, which has been billed as being of outstanding quality, and consists of the most prized objects from all the major museums of Bangladesh, it is not part of an exchange programme. The only items that the Bangladeshi people will receive in return are 20 exhibition catalogues. The lack of transparency surrounding the planned exhibition at Musee Guimet includes allegations of under-valuation of artifacts to the scale of hundreds of millions of dollars, lack of accession numbers on numerous objects, improper and incomplete cataloguing (e.g., referring to a set of coins as merely "coins", with no numbers given), inconsistency between documents, missing descriptions, and descriptions that do not conform to international standards. The official insurance value of the entire collection (stated to be "189 pieces" by the French Embassy) has been set at 4 million Euros for the purposes of this exhibition loan. Such a low insurance value for such a large collection, which dates back to the 4th century BC, has been described by an international archaeological expert as "financial fraud". Even if this incorrect valuation had been completed by the Bangladesh authorities, one questions why an international museum would accept such a patently incorrect valuation. Most worrying of all, the number of pieces identified in documentation created by the French photographer who catalogued the exhibit does not match with the contract signed by the French Ambassador. The number of artifacts in the contract in turn does not match with the official press releases from the Dhaka French Embassy. The controversy over the improper handling of the loan escalated over the last two months, resulting in a citizens' lawsuit (still pending in court) and Bangladesh citizens' group's demanded that the Bangladesh government and French authorities allowed experts to inspect the items as per international standards. The Bangladesh government asked the expert committee that is investigating the matter for time until January 15th, 2008 to respond to the committee's queries. Astonishingly, the Musee Guimet began shipment of the artifacts on 30th November, 2007 -- a full 45 days before the expiry of the Bangladesh government's self-imposed deadline. The Bangladesh government and French Embassy officials have, without informing either the committee or the media, taken the items out of the museum in the surprise shipment described earlier. Musee Guimet is one of 18 museums that have jointly signed a separate Declaration on Importance and Value of Universal Museums, which opposes returning art works, especially ancient ones, to their original owners. This is in direct opposition to the UNESCO Convention on Stolen and Illegally Exported Cultural Objects (1995). This is particularly relevant since the convention was based on the high incidence of theft that was prevailing. Bangladesh was identified as one of the three most vulnerable countries to such threats. Kwame Opoku's recent statement "Musée Guimet in Paris which incidentally also holds thousands of stolen/illegal objects from China and the rest of Asia" has increased citizen debate about the lending. The French embassy in Bangladesh has dismissed the protesters' concern and said "local procedure in connection with the lending is an internal matter of the Bangladesh government" and there is "no risk in lending artifacts". The embassy also dismissed the protests as "eminent citizens with mixed qualifications, many far outside the field of archaeology, or with little experience of international exhibitions." Guimet director Jean-Francois Jarriage and curator of the show Vincent Lefevre refused to meet with Shahidul Alam, a delegate from the protesters, who traveled to Paris for the purposes of securing an explanation. In his own statement, Jean-Francois Jarriage mentions that in the late 50's he had worked in the department of archeology here. Incidentally, it was during that period that one of the most prized artefacts, a relic casket, of our country, was taken to France for restoration. Mr. Zakaria, former secretary of the ministry of culture, who was then working in the archeology department has since campaigned for the return of the casket, but has failed to get a response from the French government over the last 49 years. The original show at Musée National des Arts Asiatiques - Guimet was billed as "Masterpieces of the Ganges delta. Collections from the Bangladesh Museums." The original scheduled dates for the show were 24th October 2007 to 3rd May 2008. The controversy has pushed back the date of the show, but as of today Musee Guimet remains adamant about showing the work without satisfying the demands of the concerned Bangladeshi citizens. While we were originally open to the idea of showing the work at Musee Guimet provided the transparency issues were addressed, the recent actions of the museum has removed any semblance of trust in the organisation, and we are no longer willing to loan our prized possessions to an organisation with such standards of behaviour. The incident, originally restricted to the issue of an exhibition now appears to have created a general distrust in the French government amongst the Bangladeshi public. Signed A. K. M. Zakaria, archeologist and former secretary, ministry of cultural affairs, GOB (Government Of Bangladesh). Nazimuddin Ahmed, archeologist, former director, department of archeology, GOB. Shamsuzzaman Khan, museologist, former director general, Bangladesh National Museum. Bulbon Osman, art historian, former director institute of fine arts, Dhaka University. Syed Jahangir, painter, former director, department of fine arts, Shilpakala Academy (Academy of Fine and Performing Arts), GOB. Borhanuddin Khan Jahangir, art historian, former pro Vice Chancellor, National University of Bangladesh. A. K. M. Shahnawaz, professor, department of archeology, Jahangirnagar University. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 01:20:01 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 19:50:01 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] URL for Tintin In Bengal Message-ID: The Guimet write-up has been uploaded here. http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal Follow the links at bottom to see images of protest, etc. From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Dec 2 03:37:33 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:07:33 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3136ff0ea4f42814d3db03014e033618@sarai.net> Dear Pawan, Namaskar.Thanks for your prompt reply. 1. What motivates me (and others) to engage with you is the mindless energy you display in promoting your agenda. The list requires regular detoxes after your postings, and I find myself taking on part of that task (along with many others) whenever I think it becomes necessary. But do not mistake this willingness with the fact that I have nothing better to do. 2. Nationalism is an idea with which I have serious philosophical and ethical problems. It is my conscience, not my ego, that comes between me and nationalism. My postings (or any other writing) against the military occupation of Kashmir by the Indian state are not made for the sake of the comfort of my ego, rather it is done in an effort to contribute to a level of awareness I believe that every Indian citizen (and everyone else) should have about the ground realities in Kashmir, because the Indian state's violence in Kashmir is meted out in the name of Indian citizens. I for one, refuse to accept this being done in my name. It is simply unacceptable to me. My refusal stems from ethical grounds, and from my understanding of the ethical and discursive responsibilities that l bear as a citizen, and more importantly, as a human being. 3. I am aware of the fact that your rants against 'pseudo secularism' and 'hollow intellectualism' usually tend to follow postings where you are exposed as being shallow. When your arguments fail, you turn to ad hominem attacks. This is a well established pattern by now. All we need to do in order to substantiate this is to follow the patterns in the archive of this list with patience. 4. I will remind you, that in my four part posting on iconoclasm in Kashmir,posted on Diwali night, there was not a single 'google citation'. Every argument was backed by a quote, in most instances, extracts from the original text in Sanskrit were given. I was reading Rajtarangini, and a few other books that were recommended by none other than the venerable Rashneek Kher, along with other primary and secondary sources, all of which had elaborate and precise citation. The history of iconoclasm in Kashmir was demonstrated as having a much more antique vintage than the advent of Islam in the Kashmir valley. And this was demonstrated with quotations from sources that even you cannot dispute. And no, they were not from google. Your 'familiarity' with the history of iconoclasm may predate the invention of google, but clearly, you are unable to offer a plausible and detailed counter-reading based on your 'familiarity'. That kind of 'familiarity', which insists that you know better simply because of your ethnicity, comes cheap. It will have no purchase here. Work a little harder than simply wearing the shabby costume of identity when you try and make an argument, and you might be taken seriously. If not, you will be exposed repeatedly as a very poor intellectual. An intellectual who is not prepared to take the trouble to substantiate what he says. An intellectual who hides behind the mask of identity in order to fire his pathetic salvos in public. 5.I am glad that you are scared. You should be. Whenever you, or anyone else make incorrect statements about people's biographies and their opinions or ideological affiliations - such as the speculation that - I belong, as you said to some - "M-L type of organization" on a public list, you will be held accountable for your statements. I do not confuse action against defamation and libel with a call for censorship, nor should you, nor should anyone else. Your invocation of Husain at this juncture is totally uncalled for, because Husain has not made statements about the biographies and lives of actual living individuals. I am not an admirer of Husain's art work. But, I believe that he should have the freedom to practice his art work unhindered. The court cases against him, which are all centred around his depictions of Hindu deities, betray the ignorance of the litigants about their own tradition more than they do anything else. Just as your knowledge of the history of Kashmir is nothing more than a travesty, so too, the depth of the awareness of Hindu culture in those who litigate against Husain is next to negligible. All of you, badly need an education, most of all about the things you claim to uphold. Further, If the difference between a warning not to indulge in libel or defamation and the call for censorship is not transparent to you, then I am happy to undertake a tutorial for your benefit. However, that might be very boring for most other people on this list as they all seem to have a greater quantum of intelligence than you are able to muster. 6. You say - "I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write the word Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual again....." Let me suspend any appreciation I might otherwise have had of your weak attempt at ironic, self deprecating humour here. Let me try and take your statement seriously, at face value. If indeed you were to stop making baseless statements on this list because of the fact that your arguments are continuously exposed as being hollow, then this list's policy of being an uncensored space will have been vindicated. Let me remind you that I was not taking objection at the terms "pseudo secularist" or "hollow intellectual" . These terms embody your opinions, and you are free to have them and to advertise them from every rooftop. Opinions are not facts. They represent attitudes to facts. I am concerned here with facts, and your statements masquerading as facts. I was objecting to your saying that I was a member of some "ML type organization". Now either I am, or I am not, a member of an "ML type organization". I am either a sympathizer or not a sympathizer of the idoelogy of an "ML type of organization". One of these statements is a fact, the other is a lie. I am not. Neither a member, nor a sympathizer. You are lying. Saying that someone is a member of something that they are not a member of, amounts to a lie. And that is why you are vulnerable to the charge of defamation. In the long run, the most effective antidote against the most prejudiced opinion, the most intense slander and calumny is a series of open and clear challenges, which can take place only in a situation where the prejudiced statement cannot shine in the martyred halo of being 'censored'. You have been here, you have had your say, and you have been exposed. If in the wake of that, you decide to hold your peace, it only goes to show that free speech, and the diligent, vigilant cultivation of criticality, is in the long run - the most effective measure against the likes of you. I was certain that this was so, but I am grateful to you for having demonstrated, once again, that this is true. Your fear is a sensible fear. If you lie, I will be scary. Very scary. Try and stick to the truth, and to what you know. regards, Shuddha On 10:47 pm 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Hello Shudha , > > NamaskAr.........Hope you dont term me a rightist for using > "NamaskAr" word. > > I could sense from your mail the anger and helplessness you feel . > Before you advise me to chill , please apply that to yourself. > > I still do not understand as to if arguing with me is so > insignificant or minor , what motivates you to reply to each of my > post even if really doesn't matter . I know somewhere you know the > truth as well , and it is an ego in you which keeps you defending > yourself and attacking my nationalistic viewpoint. > > If I write about Pseudo secularists in general , you take it as an > insult to yourself . If I talk about hollow intellectualism which > some believe in ,you again take it so personally . C'mon .....Chill. > I may be referring about someone else as well. > > Well , about your research about iconoclasm , the less said the > better . My knowledge about Kashmir has its roots well before google > was invented. And for those who want to make rest of world believe > that humans came out of eggs, google would help them write long long > stories. > > About my posts on various subject, i believe Partha may like to > confirm it .,....i have at many instances posted an article which I > found interesting . And whenever someone replied , i just said that > these views were not necessarily mine . I always provide a link to > the original. I do not blame you for not understanding these > basics......i have learnt it long back.....it may take you few more > years. > > And about your threat of defamation , well I am scared. So should > others be in this society of double standards . Where a person > defends Hussain but is planning to to encourage people to file a > defamation against me. > > I wonder what others have to say about threat of Shudha. > > I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write the word > Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual again..... > > But are you one for real ? > > Pawan > > > > On 12/1/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > I am well aware of the ground realities of any situation I choose > > to write about. I am sure, that you must be aware by now that I > > make it my business > > to research anything that I write about on the reader list in some > > detail. > > I suggest you take a close look at your own levels of awareness of > > what you > > claim as your own history (I notice, for instance, that there is > > as yet no > > reply from you or Rashneek to my annotations on the history of > > iconoclasm in Kashmir). > > > > And no, I am neither a member, nor a sympathizer of any "M-L type > > of organization". I would urge you not to make public assumptions > > about the biographies of individuals you do not know. It's risky, > > you end up running the risk of being called either a liar, or > > being exposed as being very ignorant. You also run the risk of > > being accused (rightly, in my opinion) of defamation if you > > continue to articulate assumptions of this nature on any public > > platform. So, be careful. > > I think that your problem is that you want to put people into neat > > boxes, on which you want to put labels that your limited > > understand can make snese > > of, and then assign you assign to these lablels - roles in the > > shadow boxing joust of your own imagination. So, first you decided > > that you would corner us by sending us the details of the > > atrocities of so called communist regimes, then, when we argued > > that the atrocities of so called communist regimes are > > indefensible, you changed tack. When we argued strongly against > > the atrocities of regimes led by communist parties, such as has > > happenned in West Bengal, you turned around and defended Buddhadeb > > Bhattacharya. > > You tried to invoke Sethusamudran, then, when we said yes, > > Sethusamudran was a bad idea, you had no space left to squirm. > > Then you post some atrocity in Saudi Arabia, and we say, yes Saudi > > Arabia is hell, and now, you have less and less room to maneuver. > > Really, it must be hard being you. > > > > Finally, whenever you have nothing left to say, when your > > arguments are in > > shambles, when your misrepresentations stand exposed, you invoke > > and hurl the term 'intellectual' as a term of abuse. As if the > > work of evolving a critical understanding of the world were > > something to be ashamed of. I see > > no reason to be ashamed of intellectual work, just as I see no > > reason to be > > ashamed or any other kind of human activity. Can you imagine a > > situation where we would go around churlishly accusing each other > > of being 'pastry cooks', or 'dancers' or 'acrobats' or > > 'steelworkers' or 'photo shop operators' whenever we were faced > > with the weakness of our own positions and arguments. It would be > > absured. It would actually be pathetic. And when > > you cry 'intellectual' you sound just as absurd, just as pathetic, > > just as infantile. > > > > You write, you argue, you try to present your view of the world. > > Unfortunately, that makes you an intellectual. Just as what I do > > makes me an intellectual. There can be debate about the quality of > > our arguments, about how well they stand up to reason, and to the > > complexities of our times. There can be arguments about whether or > > not our intellectual work is > > of any value. But accusing people of being 'intellectuals' per se, > > is frankly, neither here, nor there. It is a meaningless statement. > > > > We all have a lot of things to do in our lives. And believe me, > > arguing with you is only a very minor, highly insignificant detail > > in the rich tapestry of our days. Regardless, it shall continue to > > be done, whenever it > > is crucially necessary for it to be done. Take my advice, relax, > > chill out, > > think about a few things other than what you have made your pet > > obsession, and don't jump to the gun all the time. You misfire, > > badly. And sometimes the bullets ricochet in your own direction. > > Or as we might say in football > > parlance "self-goal se bachte raho saathi" ("stay clear of self > > goals, friend") > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 10:42 am 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and > > looking at how > > > few of you try to link everything and anything communal > > > happening with Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead > > > to ? Each time you quote " Indian States Military > > > Occupation In Kashmir " , without knowing the ground > > > reality talk of your ignorance of the ground reality . You would > > > be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a separatist > > > organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which > > > happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread > > > discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of > > > Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being > > > destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same > time non of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken > > > down to peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of > > > expression and at the same time you want all these liberties to > > > be taken with Hindu relegion. Each time you talk of secular > > > parties which you love even though thay may be aligned with a ML > > > type of organisation and at the same time you need an anti > > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. Each time > > > you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. Cmon > > > ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > state has "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti > > > people in Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than > > > typing few words on the keyboard. Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Pawan, > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > > > earlier post, and as is evident from your posting of the brutal > > > treatment meted out to a young woman who has been the victim of > > > gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be > > > the partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > > > intellectual that I find interesting it the one who has no > > > problem at all in terms of evolving an engaged critique of > > > oppression, no matter what form it takes, no matter where it > > > occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people like Noam > > > Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize > > > his prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' > > > government's violence against its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who > > > have been active on this list in arguing against the Indian > > > state's military occupation of the Kashmir valley have had > > > no problems at all in being determined in our opposition to > > > oppression when it occurs in Left Front ruled West Bengal, in > > > the current conditions of military dictatorship in Burma and > > > Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis of > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea > > > were to be discussed on this list, I would be certain that there > > > will be clear arguments on this list against the imbecilic > > > regime that rules North Korea at the moment. The list can be > > > justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the United States, Russia > > > and many other countries and states. > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. > > > It is ruled by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in > > > place by money, weapons and influence wielded by British and > > > American corporate intersts and foreign policy. If the > > > international community was justified in operating a set of > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it > > > should have no business in cosying up to the sexist, > > > slave-owning, xenophobic, anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the > > > favourite retirement support agency of third rate dictators like > > > Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz Sharif. > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of > > > British foreign policy in the middle east in the early twentieth > > > century presides over an imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, > > > and the particularly Salafist brand of Islam that is held out as > > > an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its rented clerics is rightly > > > rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. Its > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > > American fighter jets. > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia > > > to the venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different > > > kinds of abominations that need to be fought, and fought till > > > they are destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist > > > Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the > > > short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-l > ashes- > > > and > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi > > > > Arabia's Higher Judicial Council has actually sentenced a > > > > rape victim to receive 200 lashes and prison while the > > > > perpetrators of humanity's most heinous crime were > > > > allowed to walk free. > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men > > > > was originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling > > > > in the car of an 'unrelated male' at the time of the > > > > rape. However after the woman had the temerity of not > > > > unquestioningly submitting herself to be tortured as > > > > punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has > > > > been banned from carrying her case further. His license has > > > > been revoked and he has been called to appear before a > > > > disciplinary committee for challenging the judgment, which > > > > only punished the victim of the crime and not its > > > > perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry sentence > > > > of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage > > > > heinous crimes against them in the name of maintaining social > > > > discipline. _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.ne t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader- > list/ > > > > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 03:57:24 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:27:24 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Tintin in Bengal, or Musee Guimet Controversy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4751DFBB.2050904@gmail.com> Naeem, As you know, I was confused, too. Thanks for clearing it up. It is absolutely astounding that the government in Dhaka is sending those priceless treasures to a museum with such a record, but we are used to scandalous behavior from governments in our part of the world. France is different, or should be. One gets the sense that the emerging supranational entity called "Europe" is eager to project itself to the rest of the world as being civilised and humane. If we "Third World nicks" are to believe this, France should rein in Guimet instead of helping it along in a criminally inept or plain criminal enterprise as you have described. If the French want to see those artifacts - and I think that would be a good thing for Bangladesh - their government should take direct responsibility for the exhibits. It should catalog them properly, since the Dhaka museum people have clearly failed to do that, insure them adequately, and ensure their safe return after the display. Tapas Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > Tintin in Bengal, or Musee Guimet Controversy > Naeem Mohaiemen > > From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Sun Dec 2 08:37:50 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 03:07:50 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered .... In-Reply-To: <3136ff0ea4f42814d3db03014e033618@sarai.net> Message-ID: <889901.85951.qm@web8409.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan and others. Firstly, I want to thank and salute Shuddha for speaking on behalf of all the "hollow intellectuals". Pawan, you must realize that Shuddha is not taking your posts personally but rather speaking on behalf of many of us. No one else seems to have the patience to go through your endless barrage of mails and reply so meticulously and thoroughly. And its not just your ideology that one has to deal with - it is the style and shallowness of your posts that one has to answer. And no one else has been able to deal with that better than Shuddha. I really think that you have no concrete answer to give about Shuddha's Kashmir's iconoclasm mail - that was the greatest challange posed to you and you have failed to respond. We ae still waiting for an equally strong response to that from you. I don't think it was a challenge posed by Shuddha personally, but on behalf of many of us, and we are proud of that... SF (P.S.: I condemn all acts of injustice and brutality meted out by the Saudi govt.) --- shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > Namaskar.Thanks for your prompt reply. > > 1. What motivates me (and others) to engage with you > is the mindless energy > you display in promoting your agenda. The list > requires regular detoxes > after your postings, and I find myself taking on > part of that task (along > with many others) whenever I think it becomes > necessary. But do not > mistake this willingness with the fact that I have > nothing better to do. > > 2. Nationalism is an idea with which I have serious > philosophical and > ethical problems. It is my conscience, not my ego, > that comes between me > and nationalism. My postings (or any other writing) > against the military > occupation of Kashmir by the Indian state are not > made for the sake of the > comfort of my ego, rather it is done in an effort to > contribute to a level > of awareness I believe that every Indian citizen > (and everyone else) should > have about the ground realities in Kashmir, because > the Indian state's > violence in Kashmir is meted out in the name of > Indian citizens. I for one, > refuse to accept this being done in my name. It is > simply unacceptable to > me. My refusal stems from ethical grounds, and from > my understanding of the > ethical and discursive responsibilities that l bear > as a citizen, and more > importantly, as a human being. > > 3. I am aware of the fact that your rants against > 'pseudo secularism' and > 'hollow intellectualism' usually tend to follow > postings where you are > exposed as being shallow. When your arguments fail, > you turn to ad hominem > attacks. This is a well established pattern by now. > All we need to do in > order to substantiate this is to follow the patterns > in the archive of this > list with patience. > > 4. I will remind you, that in my four part posting > on iconoclasm in > Kashmir,posted on Diwali night, there was not a > single 'google citation'. > Every argument was backed by a quote, in most > instances, extracts from the > original text in Sanskrit were given. I was reading > Rajtarangini, and a few > other books that were recommended by none other than > the venerable Rashneek > Kher, along with other primary and secondary > sources, all of which had > elaborate and precise citation. The history of > iconoclasm in Kashmir was > demonstrated as having a much more antique vintage > than the advent of Islam > in the Kashmir valley. And this was demonstrated > with quotations from > sources that even you cannot dispute. And no, they > were not from google. > > Your 'familiarity' with the history of iconoclasm > may predate the invention > of google, but clearly, you are unable to offer a > plausible and detailed > counter-reading based on your 'familiarity'. That > kind of 'familiarity', > which insists that you know better simply because of > your ethnicity, comes > cheap. It will have no purchase here. Work a little > harder than simply > wearing the shabby costume of identity when you try > and make an argument, > and you might be taken seriously. If not, you will > be exposed repeatedly as > a very poor intellectual. An intellectual who is not > prepared to take the > trouble to substantiate what he says. An > intellectual who hides behind the > mask of identity in order to fire his pathetic > salvos in public. > > 5.I am glad that you are scared. You should be. > Whenever you, or anyone > else make incorrect statements about people's > biographies and their > opinions or ideological affiliations - such as the > speculation that - I > belong, as you said to some - "M-L type of > organization" on a public list, > you will be held accountable for your statements. I > do not confuse action > against defamation and libel with a call for > censorship, nor should you, > nor should anyone else. Your invocation of Husain at > this juncture is > totally uncalled for, because Husain has not made > statements about the > biographies and lives of actual living individuals. > I am not an admirer of > Husain's art work. But, I believe that he should > have the freedom to > practice his art work unhindered. The court cases > against him, which are > all centred around his depictions of Hindu deities, > betray the ignorance of > the litigants about their own tradition more than > they do anything else. > Just as your knowledge of the history of Kashmir is > nothing more than a > travesty, so too, the depth of the awareness of > Hindu culture in those who > litigate against Husain is next to negligible. All > of you, badly need an > education, most of all about the things you claim to > uphold. > > Further, If the difference between a warning not to > indulge in libel or > defamation and the call for censorship is not > transparent to you, then I am > happy to undertake a tutorial for your benefit. > However, that might be very > boring for most other people on this list as they > all seem to have a > greater quantum of intelligence than you are able to > muster. > > 6. You say - "I am just too scared to write > ........and wont dare to write > the word Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual > again....." > > Let me suspend any appreciation I might otherwise > have had of your weak > attempt at ironic, self deprecating humour here. Let > me try and take your > statement seriously, at face value. If indeed you > were to stop making > baseless statements on this list because of the fact > that your arguments > are continuously exposed as being hollow, then this > list's policy of being > an uncensored space will have been vindicated. Let > me remind you that I was > not taking objection at the terms "pseudo > secularist" or "hollow > intellectual" . These terms embody your opinions, > and you are free to have > them and to advertise them from every rooftop. > Opinions are not facts. They > represent attitudes to facts. I am concerned here > with facts, and your > statements masquerading as facts. I was objecting to > your saying that I was > a member of some "ML type organization". Now either > I am, or I am not, a > member of an "ML type organization". I am either a > sympathizer or not a > sympathizer of the idoelogy of an "ML type of > organization". One of these > statements is a fact, the other is a lie. I am not. > Neither a member, nor a > sympathizer. You are lying. Saying that someone is a > member of something > that they are not a member of, amounts to a lie. And > that is why you are > vulnerable to the charge of defamation. > > In the long run, the most effective antidote against > the most prejudiced > opinion, the most intense slander and calumny is a > series of open and clear > challenges, which can take place only in a situation > where the prejudiced > statement cannot shine in the martyred halo of being > 'censored'. > > You have been here, you have had your say, and you > have been exposed. If in > the wake of that, you decide to hold your peace, it > only goes to show that > free speech, and the diligent, vigilant cultivation > of criticality, is in > the long run - the most effective measure against > the likes of you. I was > certain that this was so, but I am grateful to you > for having demonstrated, > once again, that this is true. > > === message truncated === Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 11:02:57 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 05:32:57 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered .... References: <889901.85951.qm@web8409.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005a01c834a4$c7f4f6e0$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Well, I sincerely wish I had a jot of Shuddha's patience in me. I can't read some of these mails, let alone respond. And of course eloquence as well. I wish, I could respond in such a cool manner to some of these mails. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S.Fatima" To: ; "Pawan Durani" Cc: Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered .... > Dear Pawan and others. > Firstly, I want to thank and salute Shuddha for > speaking on behalf of all the "hollow intellectuals". > Pawan, you must realize that Shuddha is not taking > your posts personally but rather speaking on behalf of > many of us. No one else seems to have the patience to > go through your endless barrage of mails and reply so > meticulously and thoroughly. And its not just your > ideology that one has to deal with - it is the style > and shallowness of your posts that one has to answer. > And no one else has been able to deal with that better > than Shuddha. > > I really think that you have no concrete answer to > give about Shuddha's Kashmir's iconoclasm mail - that > was the greatest challange posed to you and you have > failed to respond. We ae still waiting for an equally > strong response to that from you. I don't think it was > a challenge posed by Shuddha personally, but on behalf > of many of us, and we are proud of that... > > SF > > (P.S.: I condemn all acts of injustice and brutality > meted out by the Saudi govt.) > > > > --- shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > >> Dear Pawan, >> >> Namaskar.Thanks for your prompt reply. >> >> 1. What motivates me (and others) to engage with you >> is the mindless energy >> you display in promoting your agenda. The list >> requires regular detoxes >> after your postings, and I find myself taking on >> part of that task (along >> with many others) whenever I think it becomes >> necessary. But do not >> mistake this willingness with the fact that I have >> nothing better to do. >> >> 2. Nationalism is an idea with which I have serious >> philosophical and >> ethical problems. It is my conscience, not my ego, >> that comes between me >> and nationalism. My postings (or any other writing) >> against the military >> occupation of Kashmir by the Indian state are not >> made for the sake of the >> comfort of my ego, rather it is done in an effort to >> contribute to a level >> of awareness I believe that every Indian citizen >> (and everyone else) should >> have about the ground realities in Kashmir, because >> the Indian state's >> violence in Kashmir is meted out in the name of >> Indian citizens. I for one, >> refuse to accept this being done in my name. It is >> simply unacceptable to >> me. My refusal stems from ethical grounds, and from >> my understanding of the >> ethical and discursive responsibilities that l bear >> as a citizen, and more >> importantly, as a human being. >> >> 3. I am aware of the fact that your rants against >> 'pseudo secularism' and >> 'hollow intellectualism' usually tend to follow >> postings where you are >> exposed as being shallow. When your arguments fail, >> you turn to ad hominem >> attacks. This is a well established pattern by now. >> All we need to do in >> order to substantiate this is to follow the patterns >> in the archive of this >> list with patience. >> >> 4. I will remind you, that in my four part posting >> on iconoclasm in >> Kashmir,posted on Diwali night, there was not a >> single 'google citation'. >> Every argument was backed by a quote, in most >> instances, extracts from the >> original text in Sanskrit were given. I was reading >> Rajtarangini, and a few >> other books that were recommended by none other than >> the venerable Rashneek >> Kher, along with other primary and secondary >> sources, all of which had >> elaborate and precise citation. The history of >> iconoclasm in Kashmir was >> demonstrated as having a much more antique vintage >> than the advent of Islam >> in the Kashmir valley. And this was demonstrated >> with quotations from >> sources that even you cannot dispute. And no, they >> were not from google. >> >> Your 'familiarity' with the history of iconoclasm >> may predate the invention >> of google, but clearly, you are unable to offer a >> plausible and detailed >> counter-reading based on your 'familiarity'. That >> kind of 'familiarity', >> which insists that you know better simply because of >> your ethnicity, comes >> cheap. It will have no purchase here. Work a little >> harder than simply >> wearing the shabby costume of identity when you try >> and make an argument, >> and you might be taken seriously. If not, you will >> be exposed repeatedly as >> a very poor intellectual. An intellectual who is not >> prepared to take the >> trouble to substantiate what he says. An >> intellectual who hides behind the >> mask of identity in order to fire his pathetic >> salvos in public. >> >> 5.I am glad that you are scared. You should be. >> Whenever you, or anyone >> else make incorrect statements about people's >> biographies and their >> opinions or ideological affiliations - such as the >> speculation that - I >> belong, as you said to some - "M-L type of >> organization" on a public list, >> you will be held accountable for your statements. I >> do not confuse action >> against defamation and libel with a call for >> censorship, nor should you, >> nor should anyone else. Your invocation of Husain at >> this juncture is >> totally uncalled for, because Husain has not made >> statements about the >> biographies and lives of actual living individuals. >> I am not an admirer of >> Husain's art work. But, I believe that he should >> have the freedom to >> practice his art work unhindered. The court cases >> against him, which are >> all centred around his depictions of Hindu deities, >> betray the ignorance of >> the litigants about their own tradition more than >> they do anything else. >> Just as your knowledge of the history of Kashmir is >> nothing more than a >> travesty, so too, the depth of the awareness of >> Hindu culture in those who >> litigate against Husain is next to negligible. All >> of you, badly need an >> education, most of all about the things you claim to >> uphold. >> >> Further, If the difference between a warning not to >> indulge in libel or >> defamation and the call for censorship is not >> transparent to you, then I am >> happy to undertake a tutorial for your benefit. >> However, that might be very >> boring for most other people on this list as they >> all seem to have a >> greater quantum of intelligence than you are able to >> muster. >> >> 6. You say - "I am just too scared to write >> ........and wont dare to write >> the word Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual >> again....." >> >> Let me suspend any appreciation I might otherwise >> have had of your weak >> attempt at ironic, self deprecating humour here. Let >> me try and take your >> statement seriously, at face value. If indeed you >> were to stop making >> baseless statements on this list because of the fact >> that your arguments >> are continuously exposed as being hollow, then this >> list's policy of being >> an uncensored space will have been vindicated. Let >> me remind you that I was >> not taking objection at the terms "pseudo >> secularist" or "hollow >> intellectual" . These terms embody your opinions, >> and you are free to have >> them and to advertise them from every rooftop. >> Opinions are not facts. They >> represent attitudes to facts. I am concerned here >> with facts, and your >> statements masquerading as facts. I was objecting to >> your saying that I was >> a member of some "ML type organization". Now either >> I am, or I am not, a >> member of an "ML type organization". I am either a >> sympathizer or not a >> sympathizer of the idoelogy of an "ML type of >> organization". One of these >> statements is a fact, the other is a lie. I am not. >> Neither a member, nor a >> sympathizer. You are lying. Saying that someone is a >> member of something >> that they are not a member of, amounts to a lie. And >> that is why you are >> vulnerable to the charge of defamation. >> >> In the long run, the most effective antidote against >> the most prejudiced >> opinion, the most intense slander and calumny is a >> series of open and clear >> challenges, which can take place only in a situation >> where the prejudiced >> statement cannot shine in the martyred halo of being >> 'censored'. >> >> You have been here, you have had your say, and you >> have been exposed. If in >> the wake of that, you decide to hold your peace, it >> only goes to show that >> free speech, and the diligent, vigilant cultivation >> of criticality, is in >> the long run - the most effective measure against >> the likes of you. I was >> certain that this was so, but I am grateful to you >> for having demonstrated, >> once again, that this is true. >> >> > === message truncated === > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 11:52:07 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 06:22:07 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudi judges In-Reply-To: <3136ff0ea4f42814d3db03014e033618@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be234c62a232d8@mail.gmail.com> <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> <3136ff0ea4f42814d3db03014e033618@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712012222m535b479fv155db50bedc8051@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha , The was actually no need to write such a long long mail and choking the megabytes of bandwidth had you read my mail carefully. I had written : "Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though they may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an anti allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well." Now neither did I write that you are a member or sympathiser of a ML type of a organisation .Your hate for something which doesnt suit your judgement led you to write a boring long snobish mail which was out of place and out of context. Please have some sleep before you reply to me again. As for previous mails , you very well know that you chose an author and a quote that suits your argument , and chose to ignore that doesn't. Some quotes of Kilam's book suited you and you quoted them. At the same time Ms Kauls book did not suit you and you connected it with the book publishers , Utpal Publisher having a nationalistic ideology on Kashmir. Not that I do not know that you are averse to certain type of facts , which was quite evident when you did not even condemn Sanjay Kaks wrong depiction of facts. I have survived the terrorists like Yasin Malik 19 years back. I know them and their background better , and that makes me understand the necessity of Indian Army in Kashmir and I am proud of the sacrifices Indian army has made to protect our land from the evil. Pawan Durani On 12/2/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > Namaskar.Thanks for your prompt reply. > > 1. What motivates me (and others) to engage with you is the mindless > energy > you display in promoting your agenda. The list requires regular detoxes > after your postings, and I find myself taking on part of that task (along > with many others) whenever I think it becomes necessary. But do not > mistake this willingness with the fact that I have nothing better to do. > > 2. Nationalism is an idea with which I have serious philosophical and > ethical problems. It is my conscience, not my ego, that comes between me > and nationalism. My postings (or any other writing) against the military > occupation of Kashmir by the Indian state are not made for the sake of the > comfort of my ego, rather it is done in an effort to contribute to a level > > of awareness I believe that every Indian citizen (and everyone else) > should > have about the ground realities in Kashmir, because the Indian state's > violence in Kashmir is meted out in the name of Indian citizens. I for > one, > refuse to accept this being done in my name. It is simply unacceptable to > me. My refusal stems from ethical grounds, and from my understanding of > the > ethical and discursive responsibilities that l bear as a citizen, and more > > importantly, as a human being. > > 3. I am aware of the fact that your rants against 'pseudo secularism' and > 'hollow intellectualism' usually tend to follow postings where you are > exposed as being shallow. When your arguments fail, you turn to ad hominem > > attacks. This is a well established pattern by now. All we need to do in > order to substantiate this is to follow the patterns in the archive of > this > list with patience. > > 4. I will remind you, that in my four part posting on iconoclasm in > Kashmir,posted on Diwali night, there was not a single 'google citation'. > Every argument was backed by a quote, in most instances, extracts from the > original text in Sanskrit were given. I was reading Rajtarangini, and a > few > other books that were recommended by none other than the venerable > Rashneek > Kher, along with other primary and secondary sources, all of which had > elaborate and precise citation. The history of iconoclasm in Kashmir was > demonstrated as having a much more antique vintage than the advent of > Islam > in the Kashmir valley. And this was demonstrated with quotations from > sources that even you cannot dispute. And no, they were not from google. > > Your 'familiarity' with the history of iconoclasm may predate the > invention > of google, but clearly, you are unable to offer a plausible and detailed > counter-reading based on your 'familiarity'. That kind of 'familiarity', > which insists that you know better simply because of your ethnicity, comes > cheap. It will have no purchase here. Work a little harder than simply > wearing the shabby costume of identity when you try and make an argument, > and you might be taken seriously. If not, you will be exposed repeatedly > as > a very poor intellectual. An intellectual who is not prepared to take the > trouble to substantiate what he says. An intellectual who hides behind the > > mask of identity in order to fire his pathetic salvos in public. > > 5.I am glad that you are scared. You should be. Whenever you, or anyone > else make incorrect statements about people's biographies and their > opinions or ideological affiliations - such as the speculation that - I > belong, as you said to some - "M-L type of organization" on a public list, > you will be held accountable for your statements. I do not confuse action > against defamation and libel with a call for censorship, nor should you, > nor should anyone else. Your invocation of Husain at this juncture is > totally uncalled for, because Husain has not made statements about the > biographies and lives of actual living individuals. I am not an admirer of > Husain's art work. But, I believe that he should have the freedom to > practice his art work unhindered. The court cases against him, which are > all centred around his depictions of Hindu deities, betray the ignorance > of > the litigants about their own tradition more than they do anything else. > Just as your knowledge of the history of Kashmir is nothing more than a > travesty, so too, the depth of the awareness of Hindu culture in those who > litigate against Husain is next to negligible. All of you, badly need an > education, most of all about the things you claim to uphold. > > Further, If the difference between a warning not to indulge in libel or > defamation and the call for censorship is not transparent to you, then I > am > happy to undertake a tutorial for your benefit. However, that might be > very > boring for most other people on this list as they all seem to have a > greater quantum of intelligence than you are able to muster. > > 6. You say - "I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write > > the word Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual again....." > > Let me suspend any appreciation I might otherwise have had of your weak > attempt at ironic, self deprecating humour here. Let me try and take your > statement seriously, at face value. If indeed you were to stop making > baseless statements on this list because of the fact that your arguments > are continuously exposed as being hollow, then this list's policy of being > > an uncensored space will have been vindicated. Let me remind you that I > was > not taking objection at the terms "pseudo secularist" or "hollow > intellectual" . These terms embody your opinions, and you are free to have > > them and to advertise them from every rooftop. Opinions are not facts. > They > represent attitudes to facts. I am concerned here with facts, and your > statements masquerading as facts. I was objecting to your saying that I > was > a member of some "ML type organization". Now either I am, or I am not, a > member of an "ML type organization". I am either a sympathizer or not a > sympathizer of the idoelogy of an "ML type of organization". One of these > > statements is a fact, the other is a lie. I am not. Neither a member, nor > a > sympathizer. You are lying. Saying that someone is a member of something > that they are not a member of, amounts to a lie. And that is why you are > vulnerable to the charge of defamation. > > In the long run, the most effective antidote against the most prejudiced > opinion, the most intense slander and calumny is a series of open and > clear > challenges, which can take place only in a situation where the prejudiced > statement cannot shine in the martyred halo of being 'censored'. > > You have been here, you have had your say, and you have been exposed. If > in > the wake of that, you decide to hold your peace, it only goes to show that > > free speech, and the diligent, vigilant cultivation of criticality, is in > the long run - the most effective measure against the likes of you. I was > certain that this was so, but I am grateful to you for having > demonstrated, > once again, that this is true. > > Your fear is a sensible fear. If you lie, I will be scary. Very scary. Try > and stick to the truth, and to what you know. > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > > > > > On 10:47 pm 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" wrote: > > Hello Shudha , > > > > NamaskAr.........Hope you dont term me a rightist for using > > "NamaskAr" word. > > > > I could sense from your mail the anger and helplessness you feel . > > Before you advise me to chill , please apply that to yourself. > > > > I still do not understand as to if arguing with me is so > > insignificant or minor , what motivates you to reply to each of my > > post even if really doesn't matter . I know somewhere you know the > > truth as well , and it is an ego in you which keeps you defending > > yourself and attacking my nationalistic viewpoint. > > > > If I write about Pseudo secularists in general , you take it as an > > insult to yourself . If I talk about hollow intellectualism which > > some believe in ,you again take it so personally . C'mon .....Chill. > > I may be referring about someone else as well. > > > > Well , about your research about iconoclasm , the less said the > > better . My knowledge about Kashmir has its roots well before google > > was invented. And for those who want to make rest of world believe > > that humans came out of eggs, google would help them write long long > > stories. > > > > About my posts on various subject, i believe Partha may like to > > confirm it .,....i have at many instances posted an article which I > > found interesting . And whenever someone replied , i just said that > > these views were not necessarily mine . I always provide a link to > > the original. I do not blame you for not understanding these > > basics......i have learnt it long back.....it may take you few more > > years. > > > > And about your threat of defamation , well I am scared. So should > > others be in this society of double standards . Where a person > > defends Hussain but is planning to to encourage people to file a > > defamation against me. > > > > I wonder what others have to say about threat of Shudha. > > > > I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write the word > > Pseudo Secularist and hollow intellectual again..... > > > > But are you one for real ? > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 12/1/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > I am well aware of the ground realities of any situation I choose > > > to write about. I am sure, that you must be aware by now that I > > > make it my business > > > to research anything that I write about on the reader list in some > > > detail. > > > I suggest you take a close look at your own levels of awareness of > > > what you > > > claim as your own history (I notice, for instance, that there is > > > as yet no > > > reply from you or Rashneek to my annotations on the history of > > > iconoclasm in Kashmir). > > > > > > And no, I am neither a member, nor a sympathizer of any "M-L type > > > of organization". I would urge you not to make public assumptions > > > about the biographies of individuals you do not know. It's risky, > > > you end up running the risk of being called either a liar, or > > > being exposed as being very ignorant. You also run the risk of > > > being accused (rightly, in my opinion) of defamation if you > > > continue to articulate assumptions of this nature on any public > > > platform. So, be careful. > > > I think that your problem is that you want to put people into neat > > > boxes, on which you want to put labels that your limited > > > understand can make snese > > > of, and then assign you assign to these lablels - roles in the > > > shadow boxing joust of your own imagination. So, first you decided > > > that you would corner us by sending us the details of the > > > atrocities of so called communist regimes, then, when we argued > > > that the atrocities of so called communist regimes are > > > indefensible, you changed tack. When we argued strongly against > > > the atrocities of regimes led by communist parties, such as has > > > happenned in West Bengal, you turned around and defended Buddhadeb > > > Bhattacharya. > > > You tried to invoke Sethusamudran, then, when we said yes, > > > Sethusamudran was a bad idea, you had no space left to squirm. > > > Then you post some atrocity in Saudi Arabia, and we say, yes Saudi > > > Arabia is hell, and now, you have less and less room to maneuver. > > > Really, it must be hard being you. > > > > > > Finally, whenever you have nothing left to say, when your > > > arguments are in > > > shambles, when your misrepresentations stand exposed, you invoke > > > and hurl the term 'intellectual' as a term of abuse. As if the > > > work of evolving a critical understanding of the world were > > > something to be ashamed of. I see > > > no reason to be ashamed of intellectual work, just as I see no > > > reason to be > > > ashamed or any other kind of human activity. Can you imagine a > > > situation where we would go around churlishly accusing each other > > > of being 'pastry cooks', or 'dancers' or 'acrobats' or > > > 'steelworkers' or 'photo shop operators' whenever we were faced > > > with the weakness of our own positions and arguments. It would be > > > absured. It would actually be pathetic. And when > > > you cry 'intellectual' you sound just as absurd, just as pathetic, > > > just as infantile. > > > > > > You write, you argue, you try to present your view of the world. > > > Unfortunately, that makes you an intellectual. Just as what I do > > > makes me an intellectual. There can be debate about the quality of > > > our arguments, about how well they stand up to reason, and to the > > > complexities of our times. There can be arguments about whether or > > > not our intellectual work is > > > of any value. But accusing people of being 'intellectuals' per se, > > > is frankly, neither here, nor there. It is a meaningless statement. > > > > > > We all have a lot of things to do in our lives. And believe me, > > > arguing with you is only a very minor, highly insignificant detail > > > in the rich tapestry of our days. Regardless, it shall continue to > > > be done, whenever it > > > is crucially necessary for it to be done. Take my advice, relax, > > > chill out, > > > think about a few things other than what you have made your pet > > > obsession, and don't jump to the gun all the time. You misfire, > > > badly. And sometimes the bullets ricochet in your own direction. > > > Or as we might say in football > > > parlance "self-goal se bachte raho saathi" ("stay clear of self > > > goals, friend") > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > On 10:42 am 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and > > > looking at how > > > > few of you try to link everything and anything communal > > > > happening with Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead > > > > to ? Each time you quote " Indian States Military > > > > Occupation In Kashmir " , without knowing the ground > > > > reality talk of your ignorance of the ground reality . You would > > > > be ready to accept figures given by a terrorist or a separatist > > > > organisation and at the same time averse to the real figures. > > > > Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which > > > > happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread > > > > discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of > > > > Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being > > > > destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same > > time non of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken > > > > down to peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of > > > > expression and at the same time you want all these liberties to > > > > be taken with Hindu relegion. Each time you talk of secular > > > > parties which you love even though thay may be aligned with a ML > > > > type of organisation and at the same time you need an anti > > > > allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well. Each time > > > > you speak of evil in Babu bajrangi but you have closed your > > > > thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and Hamdanis. Cmon > > > > ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > > state has "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti > > > > people in Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than > > > > typing few words on the keyboard. Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > > > > earlier post, and as is evident from your posting of the brutal > > > > treatment meted out to a young woman who has been the victim of > > > > gang rape in Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to be > > > > the partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > > > > intellectual that I find interesting it the one who has no > > > > problem at all in terms of evolving an engaged critique of > > > > oppression, no matter what form it takes, no matter where it > > > > occurs. That is why, despite our respect for people like Noam > > > > Chomsky, some of us took it upon ourselves to sharply criticize > > > > his prevaricating apology for the 'Left Front' > > > > government's violence against its own subjects in West Bengal > > > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who > > > > have been active on this list in arguing against the Indian > > > > state's military occupation of the Kashmir valley have had > > > > no problems at all in being determined in our opposition to > > > > oppression when it occurs in Left Front ruled West Bengal, in > > > > the current conditions of military dictatorship in Burma and > > > > Pakistan, or for that matter when it occurs under the aegis of > > > > the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Tomorrow, if North Korea > > > > were to be discussed on this list, I would be certain that there > > > > will be clear arguments on this list against the imbecilic > > > > regime that rules North Korea at the moment. The list can be > > > > justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the United States, Russia > > > > and many other countries and states. > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. > > > > It is ruled by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in > > > > place by money, weapons and influence wielded by British and > > > > American corporate intersts and foreign policy. If the > > > > international community was justified in operating a set of > > > > sanctions against the hated South African apartheid regime, it > > > > should have no business in cosying up to the sexist, > > > > slave-owning, xenophobic, anti-semitic Saudi regime which is the > > > > favourite retirement support agency of third rate dictators like > > > > Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz Sharif. > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of > > > > British foreign policy in the middle east in the early twentieth > > > > century presides over an imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, > > > > and the particularly Salafist brand of Islam that is held out as > > > > an ideal by the Saudi monarchy and its rented clerics is rightly > > > > rejected by the majority of Muslims in the world. Its > > > > significance lies only in that it is backed by petro-dollars and > > > > American fighter jets. > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi Arabia > > > > to the venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different > > > > kinds of abominations that need to be fought, and fought till > > > > they are destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist > > > > Islamo-fascism perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the > > > > short, sharp end of Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. > > > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < > > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered-200-l > > ashes- > > > > and > > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi > > > > > Arabia's Higher Judicial Council has actually sentenced a > > > > > rape victim to receive 200 lashes and prison while the > > > > > perpetrators of humanity's most heinous crime were > > > > > allowed to walk free. > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men > > > > > was originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling > > > > > in the car of an 'unrelated male' at the time of the > > > > > rape. However after the woman had the temerity of not > > > > > unquestioningly submitting herself to be tortured as > > > > > punishment of being raped, the judges on Saudi Arabia's > > > > > Higher Judicial Council more than doubled her punishment for > > > > > attempting to influence the judiciary through the media. > > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has > > > > > been banned from carrying her case further. His license has > > > > > been revoked and he has been called to appear before a > > > > > disciplinary committee for challenging the judgment, which > > > > > only punished the victim of the crime and not its > > > > > perpetrators. The Sunni rapists were given a paltry sentence > > > > > of one to five years of imprisonment. > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage > > > > > heinous crimes against them in the name of maintaining social > > > > > discipline. _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.ne t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader- > > list/ > > > > > > > From surya_rajan21 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 12:38:41 2007 From: surya_rajan21 at yahoo.com (surya upadhyay) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 07:08:41 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Final Posting: Guru on the Air Message-ID: <647076.87678.qm@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi All, This is the final posting. Sorry for delay. it is appropriate to talk here about the content of satsang of Bapu and the way people adapt his ideas. Here, I am discussing about public sociability that has been developed by Bapu through the telecast of his satsang on television. The major content in the satsang of Bapu is towards the achievement of self-realization, freedom from this-worldly life and vicious circle of birth and death. He has adapted Vedantic philosophy about the ultimate truth. Apart from this, Bapu holds the view the truth is ultimate but there are many ways through which that could be approached. In his fold, it is observable that the age-old paths that were prevalent in classical Hinduism viz. Bhakti marga, Karma marga, Jnana marga; all are running simultaneously. The mode for public sociability is done through mass media and television is one out of them. However, media is just a mode to reach out the vast number of followers spread all around the globe. While writing about the followers of Mata Amritanandamayi, Warrier (2003) argues: “The religious belief and practices of these persons reveals, is neither the product of external authorization, nor the result of unquestioning allegiance to, and conformity with, centuries-old traditions handed down to them by preceding generations. Instead, it is the result of their self-authorship, where each individual creates and constructs a personal and individual creativity and innovation” (Warrier 2003: 248). In one sense, it appears correct to say that the contemporary gurus give a range of choices where a person could feel about its individuality and the spiritual growth comes from self-authorship but the question is where does this self-authorship comes from? And in my sense, what she says that this self-authorship is a result of their individual creativity and personal innovation is arguable because spiritual growth was always personal striving and interest but person always looked at the instructions given by the guru or master. However, this takes us up to the point that I want to assert here that in Bapu’s fold and perhaps in many new-age guru fold, there is a diversity of practices but that diversity is not out of one view that the guru as authority holds. In this sequence, I proceed towards the end of the conclusion by making a continuum between two approaches adopted by scholars for understanding the impact of mass media on religion. These two bipolar approaches are- deliberative and disciplinary. Responding to Warrier argument of exclusivity of followers from their guru, it might is apparently correct that the followers/ devotees and their views are not exclusive to their gurus rather whatever ideologies their gurus propagate, they choose from that. Since the realm of argumentation and practices of the modern god-person are so big that everybody gets things that are preferred by them. Certainly, they could choose and drop according to their own inclination but these elements come only from the guru. So, the scholars who approach the impact of mass media on religion either through disciplinary or deliberative way both are correct in some sense. From disciplinary approach, it is true that because of media practices dialogic aspect has ended and is negotiated by the freedom of choices given to the followers. It is a space where media helps in propelling the ideological aspect of the guru and its democratization. Lastly, media has facilitated satsang of Bapu and it is a pious entertainment medium for the followers where people continuously engage themselves with religious and spiritual virtues and also it has become an agent for personal proselytization of people towards the guru in very gradual fashion by continuously listening to the satsang on media space. It is directing towards practicality of Hinduism as people do not look at rituals and practices rather these are being replaced by the meditative and contemplative techniques. The reverence for Bapu is not directly negotiated, as God or form of God rather the place is accorded as a Guru who is considered as the gateway to the God by the Hindus. In this sense, the modern media is facilitating the gurus to prove their authority over the scriptures and reestablishing a power of a set of different kind of authority. Wishes Surya Prakash Upadhyay I-Fellow Sarai 07. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 15:41:45 2007 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 10:11:45 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Infusing resistance with creativity Message-ID: <3457ce860712020211o63b48436i262237000c3836c8@mail.gmail.com> Infusing resistance with creativity http://www.hindu.com/mag/2007/12/02/stories/2007120250110500.htm ANINDITA SENGUPTA K.P. Sasi's new film is a moving account of the struggles of India's traditional fishing communities. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I derive my creativity from life. You need creativity to jump onto a running bus, to hang on in a local train in Mumbai, to cook sambar well. All protest is creative." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whose sea is it anyway? The question begs an answer. Increasingly, the coast is under threat from industries like sand mining, tourism and organised fisheries, which erode the rich ecosystem and threaten the rights of traditional fishing communities. The only piece of legislation that stands between these forces and the sea is the Coastal Regulation Zone (CRZ) notification of 1991, which regulates industrial and commercial activity on the coasts. Since its institution, the CRZ notification has been violated or diluted several times and, in the wake of globalisation, is being viewed as an obstacle to "development". Bold indictment Plans are afoot to replace it with the Coastal Zone Management (CZM) notification, based on the recommendations of the committee chaired by M.S. Swaminathan in 2005. Fishing communities in Kerala and Tamil Nadu, who have been struggling to protect their 'mother sea' for many years, are protesting this move for multiple reasons. K.P. Sasi's "Resisting Coastal Invasions", a 52-minute documentary, vividly captures both the magnitude of the threat and the heroism of the fishing communities. It analyses the ramifications of the CZM notification and the dire consequences it will have on the 10,00,000 fisherfolk populating India's coasts. The film is a bold indictment of the government's plans to deregulate the coastal zones. In person, Sasi minces no words either. "The traditional fishing community will be removed from the coast," he says. "Already in Allepey district in Kerala, 40 per cent of the coast has been taken over by tourism. The same thing will happen everywhere." Fishing communities, already reeling from the many violations of the CRZ, are worried that the CZM notification will only make it easier for industries to invade the coast. They believe that the notification will threaten their land rights and open up all "vacant land" of coastal panchayats for commercial development and the proposed system of vulnerability mapping will threaten their livelihoods. Sasi waxes indignant: "Who decides what is vulnerable? The state will decide and it will be led by the industrial lobby. The fisherfolk will lose their land rights and housing rights. The dilution of the CRZ creates space for the invasion of tourism and other industries." If K.P. Sasi sounds more like an activist than a filmmaker, it's because he identifies himself as one. "I am an activist first. The filmmaking is an extension of that." He goes on to expand on his view of creativity. "I derive my creativity from life. Mainstream views of creativity are set in certain norms. If you write, act, make films, sing, you are creative. But I think life is creative. You need creativity to jump onto a running bus, to hang on in a local train in Mumbai, to cook sambar well. All protest is also creative. To make an impact, you have to protest in a creative manner." Sasi's engagement with the fishing community's struggles has been a long one. In 1985, he directed "We Who Make History" and "That Angry Arabian Sea", which depicted the social and ecological problems of trawling and the subsequent protests and later, in 1989, he made "A Campaign Begins" on their national march. "I have a very old equation with the Kerala fisherpeople," he explains. "They have survived the struggle for a long time. We started working on this film soon after the struggle against CZM started. It took two years to make and I wouldn't say it is a complete film. The problems shown are representative of the thousands of violations on the coast." For the film, Sasi travelled through Kerala and Tamil Nadu to capture some of the disastrous effects that coastal exploitation has already had — a depleted coastline, sea water flooding, traditional fisherfolk rendered homeless and landless. The film exposes the sand mining mafia in Kolavipalam and the effect of the Sethusamudram project. It talks about how, ironically, the CRZ was used to prevent traditional fishing communities from returning to their homes after the tsunami. The conflict between commercial interests and the lives of ordinary people is a common trope in Sasi's work. Many of his films have explored the collision of industrialisation and so-called development with nature and the people whose lives are closely intertwined with it. "A Valley Refuses to Die" (1990) explored the social and ecological problems created by the Narmada Dams and, more recently, in "The Source of Life for Sale" (2004), he exposed the impact of privatisation of water in India. He attributes this to his beginnings in the highly politicised environment of JNU where he spent nights discussing both "political ideology and action". "I came from a Left background," he says, "so I was always interested in people's struggles. When I started making films, I visited the fisherpeople communities. I used to go and sit with them. It excited me." Space for discussion Sasi is optimistic about film as a medium of social change but with characteristic humility, he clarifies that he is not a representative of the movement, merely a supporter. "Different people act at different levels. There are hundreds of ways that people can help. I believe that people respond to stimulus. A discussion is a process. You need several processes like that." By consistently creating the space for such discussions through his films, Sasi infuses his art with his beliefs — and remarkably enough, does justice to both. Dear friends, Copies of the film are distributed by Visual Search @ Rs. 250/- for individuals andRs. 500/- for institutions. For copies and further information, please contact: K.P. Sasi, Visual Search, 103, Mayflower Laxmi Apts, 63, Sultanpalya Main Road, R.T. Nagar, Bangalore-32. Phone: (0)9945282056. Web: www.visualsearch.org E-mail: visualsearch1 at gmail.com Regards, T.Peter President, KSMTF http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From ghosh.ranu at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 18:52:19 2007 From: ghosh.ranu at gmail.com (ranu ghosh) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:22:19 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Changing Industrial Landscape in Kolkata-end posting Message-ID: <80ea5720712020522y3d16ebecre6828623e91b4c91@mail.gmail.com> *The changing industrial landscape of Kolkata: documenting the transformation of a half century old factory, Joy Engineering Works, into Kolkata's South City Project, "Eastern India's largest mixed use real estate development"* *Posting 7:* This is the end posting of my fellowship .It is time to say a few concluding remarks, sum up my observations and express my gratitude to all those who have helped me directly or indirectly. I cannot claim that my project will bring earth shattering changes on the face of the city, but I do hope that it has created an awareness among many people – specially the young generation, that all is not well with the so called 'development' we are witnessing all around us, that there is always more to what meets the eye and that the time has come to start thinking about rehabilitating the huge number of people whose lives have been upset by the 'development'. My life has got irreversibly linked to the lives of some of these people – and my concerns for them will not end with my project. I shall continue to laugh and cry with them, their future will affect my future and I shall continue to voice my protests in my own way. I do need all your help, co-operation and interest in this ongoing 'resistance'. *An overview of my observations:* *Role of citizens: *Initially, the citizens in the neighbourhood of South City had put up a lot of resistance. They had complained to the police station about the noise and environmental pollution, they had voiced their protest publicly and had even filed a case against South City. In the course of two and a half years, they have become passive and resigned to the notion that nothing is going to change. Some of the citizens who had given leadership to the movement, have been taken ill and can no longer play an active role. Many of them have been threatened by the political parties and refuse to air their views. Some of them are determined to see only the 'positive' side of the development. They are looking forward to the shopping malls and other facilities that are going to come up in the South City premises. Many youngsters in the neighbourhood see this big project as an employment opportunity and some other youngsters have been inducted by the political parties as their 'agents'. All the political parties seem to have a stake in the South City project and the lumpen 'agents' of these political parties safeguard their interest through terror and bribery. In a nutshell, people have become self centered and are looking at only short term gains. *Role of NGOs and activist groups: *Several renowned environmental activists had begun a crusade against the Bikramgarh Jheel. But they have not been able to sustain their activism. Perhaps they have realized that the interest of too many big players is linked with the Jheel. The players are too powerful for the activists to negotiate or have a dialogue with. Perhaps the activists have begun to believe that voicing protests about the Jheel and its environment is not going to serve their interest in any way and give them any mileage. NGOs whose work is linked to different aspects of urban development, have told me on different occasions that South City does not come under the purview of their work. It is not their project and so they have steered clear of the engulfing monstrosity coming up on the face of the city. *Role of media: *At one point of time, South City was headline news in the English as well as Bengali newspapers. After cases were filed against the project, reporting about South City stopped. Thus the controversies in project have faded from public memory. My contention is that, the media should have kept the issue alive by regularly giving reports about the project at least in the pages devoted to local news. If the Rizwanur case can merit headlines for more than a month, why not South City? Some journalists are continuing to follow the story in all sincerity, but they are never sure whether their stories will see the light of the day. The electronic media has totally cold shouldered the project. They are the ones who could have swayed public opinion. *Trade Union Leaders: *The only trade union active* *among the Usha Factory workers is CITU and the leader of the union is Bimal Chatterjee. He is widely perceived as a 'middle man'. I am told that he gets lump sum from both South City and Jay Engineering Works for keeping the unrest of the workers in check and he has to pass on much of this money to the Party office. For the workers, he is the only Godfather who would safeguard their interest. It was Bimal Chatterjee who urged the 14 workers who did not take VRS to file a case. The case has no sign of being over. The workers are facing an uncertain future. They are totally helpless and dependent on Bimal Chatterjee. The lawyers are friends of Bimal Chatterjee and it is anybody's guess what unofficial brief the he gives the lawyers. By prolonging the case, the workers have been demoralized. Eventually when the workers will be totally demoralized, Chatterjee will arrange to give them, say, 50,000/- or 100000/- per head - a mere fraction of the compensation they are fighting for. The defeated, demoralized workers with an uncertain future will be forced to accept that amount. Both, the political parties, as well as the builders, need someone like Bimal Chatterjee to do the fine balancing act. *Bikramgarh Jheel: *The Bikramgarh Jheel is on its last legs. In an urban scenario, people's lives do not directly depend on a water body. A pond or a lake is more of a luxury – a variety in the landscape. So the common person does not understand the environmental importance of a jheel. Indifference stems from this lack of understanding. So the encroachers are happily filling up the jheel to create some real estate. *South** City as the trendsetter: *Directly or indirectly, South City is out to change the entire topography of South Calcutta. There will be flyovers over Anwar Shah Road to facilitate the smooth passage of the residents. There will be a fly over at the rear of the premise too. The pillars supporting this fly over will be planted inside the Bikramgarh Jheel. Houses will be pulled down to make room for the fly over. There is a strong rumour that South City authorities bought the Bengal Lamp premise and star the construction of another cluster of towers. *Court cases against South City:* Cases have been filed against South City by Bhaskar Gupta – a citizen living in the neighbourhood, by Javed Khan – an MLA, and by Shambhu Prasad Singh.* * All the cases are pending in court. Justice delayed is justice denied. In this prolonged battle for justice, people are drained of health, wealth and hope. Sheer struggle for survival takes over and tending the court case takes a back seat. Court cases die a natural death or eventually they settle for an out of court settlement. *Is the future as rosy as it seems?* The singularly strange thing about South City is that, in spite of all the cases pending in court, the construction work did not stop. The towers are nearing completion and the process of handing over the apartments will begin soon. When the P.N. De committee commissioned by the Pollution Control Board submitted their report that towers 3 and 4 have been built on the ground after partly filling up the water body, the court ordered the towers to be pulled down. Later, setting an unparalleled example, the court modified its order and declared that South City may have to pull down the construction if the verdict is eventually passed against them. The big question is, what are the chances of the verdict being eventually passed against South City? We are told by reliable sources that the report submitted by the Shri B.P. Gopalika, Director of Land Access & Survey, is scathing and entirely unfavourable for South City. The following data is mentioned in this report: *a) Land area found during survey: 30.23 acres* * Land area purchased: 29.83 acres* * EXCESS LAND AREA: 0.40 acres* * b) Water body area found during survey: 1.90 acres* * Water body area purchased: 1.31 acres* * EXCESS WATER BODY AREA: 0.59 acres* * TOTAL AREA FOUND IN EXCESS: 0.40 + 0.59 = 0.99 acres * The above data has been collected through satellite mapping and other modern scientific methods. The data has been submitted to the court. Will the court pass a verdict against South City on the basis of this report? If it does, will the towers be pulled down? I have been told that soon the court will send inspectors to verify the reports of the Land Use Dept. This inspection team may ask Shambhu to be a witness to the developments. Who can be a better witness than Shambhu? But South City is going full swing with the handing over formalities. Can they afford Shambhu's damaging testimonial at this stage? Some officers of the South City have already pleaded to Shambhu to keep quiet about the illegitimate filling of the water body. Shambhu is perhaps the only witness to this illegitimate process and his testimonial may sway the court's verdict against South City. Shambhu is having a nagging suspicion that guards in plain clothes have started keeping an eye on him. They hang around his quarter all the time and follow him wherever he goes. Shambhu's quarter is an eyesore in the middle of the swank new constructions. It has been cordoned off to hide it from public gaze. Shambhu asks, how will the residents of the 35th floor be spared the eyesore of their existence? *Shambhu's update:* Shambhu was told by his lawyer that his case has been dismissed. I met his lawyer and asked him the reason for the dismissal. The lawyer said that Shambhu did not turn up in court. He was not interested in continuing the case. I told the lawyer that Shambhu could have been informed about the hearing. He now has a mobile phone. Now an appeal has been forwarded to reconsider Shambhu's case. He continues to live in the South City premises without water or electricity and works as a bus conductor to earn his livelihood. *An appeal: * Shambhu is a lone fighter. The odds are all against him. There are few people he can trust . Now, since he is the potential witness for the inspection team, his life is at threat. It is an appeal to all of you to extend some help to Shambhu Prasad Singh – financial support for his court case, moral or otherwise. *My plans:* I am presently making a film on Shambhu and his admirable resistance. This is my way of voicing a protest and make Shambhu's story known. Glimpses of my film will be seen at the SARAI presentation in Delhi on 6th of December. Your feedback and informed opinion is very valuable to me. I also need some financial assistance to finish my film. If you know of any organization that can support my project, do let me know. I am also looking forward to continuing my work on Changing Industrial Landscape and taking it to a more definitive conclusion. I would like to observe the changing scenario for another six months , when people move into South City, what is the impact on environment and the people. *My last update: A significant turn of events:* On 26.11.07, The Telegraph Metro carried a news item "Landfill tag on realty sprawl: Survey accuses project on encroaching water body." Among other things, the news story quotes the state environment secretary M.L. Meena, "We have received the survey report and handed it over to Calcutta High Court". The author of this article is Jayanta Basu. He has been following the South City beat for quite some time. Jayanta told me that he had submitted this article to The Telegraph quite some time back. Now he is happy that the article is finally out. But from very day he is getting ph calls from builders and the party leaders. Could there be any other 'game plan' behind publishing this article now? *In conclusion:* It is unlikely that* *the South City towers will be pulled down. A lot of money will change hands and the verdict will be swayed in their favour – or the verdict will be suppressed permanently. Perhaps a fresh case against South City can rejuvenate matters and renew the citizens' interest in the issue. It is evident that South City has the blessings of the ruling Party. Otherwise they could not have progressed as far as they have. However, what is interesting is, presently, the media and the intellectuals are up in arms against the ruling party and the West Bengal Govt. Repeatedly, the Govt. is being forced to go on the defensive – with the Nandigram issue, with Taslima Nasreen and with Rizwanur Rahman. But in spite of the present 'anti govt.' air around us, nobody is opening their mouth about the Govt's covert role in covering up the crimes of South City. Why is nobody using this golden opportunity to lash out at the ruling party, embarrass the WB Govt. and bring the South City misdeeds in the open? That is the big question with which I would like to end my postings. *Acknowledgement:* I thank the following organizations for providing resource material for my study: Vasundhara (Environmantal group) Manthan (Journal) Ek Din (Newspaper) Calcutta Metropolitan development Authority Dept of Urban Development, Govt. of West Bengal, India Pollution Control Board, Govt. of West Bengal I thank the following persons for patiently discussing the details of this case and frankly sharing their experience: Mohit Roy Jayanta Basu Sudev Biswas Malini Bhattacharya Mihir Bhattacharya Bhaskar Gupta Shambhu Prasad Singh Chandravanu Kaustav Basu Bipul Gangopadhya Shovan Dasgupta From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Dec 2 19:21:26 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:51:26 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Apologies to Pawan Durani Message-ID: <3001ac39090c2772ec9615dc468b72bd@sarai.net> Dear Pawan, dear all, I owe Pawan Durani and all on the list an apology. He is right, his mail did not state that I am a member of an "ML type of organization". It was wrong on my part to have accused him of having done so. His statement amounts not to a categorical statement but to an insiniuation - (secular parties that I am supposed to 'love' even though they 'may be aligned with a ML type of organization') - and one cannot mistake an insinuation for defamation. 'May be' is not 'is'. And it is incorrect and unfair on my part to say Pawan has said 'is' when he has only said 'may be'. On this score, I plead guilty. So the question of defamation does not arise. My raising the questions of defamation and libel were uncalled for, and I am unconditionally sorry to have subjected everyone on the list, including Pawan to this discussion.It only goes to show that I should be more careful in responding to mails. I have no hesitation in withdrawing the remarks pertaining to defamation and libel. What Pawan said, referring to me, as he has rightly pointed out, was - "Each time you talk of secular parties which you love even though they may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and at the same time you need an anti-allergic tablet if BJP is called secularist as well." Having delivered my apologies, and withdrawn my earlier stupid, and over-reaching outburst at Pawan, I still fail to see which exactly are the secular parties aligned with an ML type of organisation that Pawan Durani says I love. I am unaware of these strong feelings, (Love, is a strong feeling) and am oblivious to who the recipients of these strong feelings might be. Also, when exactly have I talked about them? Would anyone care to enlighten me? regards, and apologies again Shuddha PS. I am glad that Pawan has responded, belatedly to my annotations on the history of iconoclasm. However, his respons, tepid as it is, does not address the substance of what I said in those four set of postings. Readers will recall, that my discussion of KIlam and Kaul's books (which are the only references that Durani has responded to in his last mail) were only in the final posting. The first three postings are devoted mainly to a discussion of evidence gleaned from primary sources, especially Kalhana's 'Rajtarangini'. As for Advaitavadini Kaul's book, my criticism of its invocation by Rashneek Kher did not rest primarily on the Indian nationalist viewpoint of its publishers. Rather, I was concerned to establish that Advaitavadini Kaul had not in fact stated that Buddhist shrines were not destroyed by Hindu rulers in Kashmir (as Kher had asserted that she had) . Rather, she had simply avoided discussing the issue of pre-Islamic iconoclasm in Kashmir. This ommission, or elision, I repeat, I find surprising, given that having been KIlam's editor, and a scholar of the Kashmiri Sanskrit canon, she (Kaul) cannot but be familiar with the body of textual material that points repeatedly to instances of pre-islamic Iconoclasm in Kashmir. From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Dec 2 23:48:12 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 18:18:12 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy on Taslima Nasreen and Nandigram: Interview on IBNlive.com with Karan Thapar Message-ID: <6d314634a912081012988f8882fc055e@sarai.net> Dear All, (Apologies for Cross Posting on Reader List and Kafila.org) As we have been discussing both Nandigram and the situation that Taslima Nasreen has found herself over the last few weeks, I thought that it might be interesting to listen in on a conversation that Karan Thapar has had with the writer Arundhati Roy that takes on both these questions. This interview was broadcast earlier today on CNN-IBN. I found the transcript on the IBNlive.com website regards Shuddha ------------------------------------------ Transcript of Arundhati Roy interviewed on the treatment of Taslima Nasreen by Karan Thapar on 'Devil's Advocate', broadcast this evening on CNN-IBN The transcript was published on Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at 20:32, on the CNN IBN website http://www.ibnlive.com/news/if-treated-like-taslima-id-give-up-writing/53464-3-single.html To watch the video of the interview - see - http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/53464/12_2007/devils_arundathi1/if-treated-like-taslima-id-give-up-writing.html --------------------------------------------- Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate. How do India’s leading authors respond to the treatment given to Taslima Nasreen over the last 14 days? That’s the key issue I shall explore today with Booker Prize- winning novelist Arundhati Roy. Karan Thapar: Arundhati Roy, let me start with that question. How do you respond to the way Taslima Nasreen has been treated for almost 14 days now? Arundhati Roy: Well, it is actually almost 14 years but right now it is only 14 days and I respond with dismay but not surprise because I see it as a part of a larger script where everybody is saying their lines and exchanging parts. Karan Thapar: She, I believe, has been in touch with you . What has she told you about the experience that she has been through? Arundhati Roy:Well I have to say that I was devastated listening to what she said because here’s this woman in exile and all alone. Since August she’s been under pressure, she says, from the West Bengal police who visit her everyday saying, “Get out of here. Go to Kerala, go to Europe or go to Rajasthan. Do anything but get out of here. People are trying to kill you,” not offering to protect her but saying get out. On 15th November when there was this huge march in Calcutta against Nandigram, they said, “Now you’re going to be killed so we’re going to move you from your flat to some other place” and they did it but they withdrew most of her security which is paradoxical because on the day when she was supposedly the most under the threat, she had no protection. A few days later they gave her a ticket and pushed her out of the state. Karan Thapar: Listening to the story she told you about herself, do you believe that the West Bengal government’s behaviour has been unacceptable? Arundhati Roy: Well it has been utterly, ridiculously unacceptable. I mean, what can I say? Here you have a situation where you’re really threatening and coercing a person. Karan Thapar: Far from protecting her, they were threatening her? Arundhati Roy: Absolutely. Karan Thapar: What about Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee? He is a poet, he is an author; how does he emerge from this story? Arundhati Roy: He emerges from the story, as far as I am concerned, as the principal scriptwriter who managed quite cleverly to shift all the attention from Nandigram to Taslima and Taslima is not the person who is displacing the poor peasants of Nandigram. She is not the person who is robbing people of their daily. Karan Thapar: So he used her as a pawn to take the pressure off himself in terms of Nandigram? Arundhati Roy: I think very successfully because we are discussing her and not Nandigram right now. Karan Thapar: So he’s failed to stand by any of the constitutional duties that as a Chief Minister he should have upheld? Arundhati Roy: I should say at this point that we do not have the constitutional right to free speech. We have many caveats between us and free speech so maybe he has upheld the constitutional rights to us not having free speech. Karan Thapar: On Friday, Taslima announced that three pages from her autobiography Dwikhandito, which allegedly had given offence to critics, are to be withdrawn. Do you see that as a sensible compromise or a mistake? Arundhati Roy: Well, neither. She does not have any choices. She is just like a person who has now got the protection of the mafia which is the state in some way. She has nowhere to go. She has no protection. She just has to blunder her way through this kind of humiliation and I really feel for her. Karan Thapar: You used an interesting phrase. You said she has to blunder her way through this humiliation. Was withdrawing those three pages, admittedly under pressure, a blunder? Arundhati Roy: I don’t know. Honestly, we can all be very brave in the security of our lives but she has nobody to turn to and nowhere to go. I don’t know what I would have done in that situation. Karan Thapar: She had no other choice, perhaps. Arundhati Roy:She really is in a mess. I think it is a reflection on all of us. Karan Thapar: Let’s come to the issues and the principle that underlie what I call the Taslima Nasreen story. To begin with, do you view freedom of speech as an absolute freedom, without any limitations or would you accept that there are certain specific constraints that we all have to accept? Arundhati Roy: It is a complicated question and has been debated often. I personally, do view it as something that should have no caveats for this simple reason that in a place where there are so many contending beliefs, so many conflicting things, only the powerful will then decide what those caveats should be and those caveats will always be used by the powerful. Karan Thapar: So you’re saying that given the fact that many people are vulnerable, freedom of speech for them should have no caveats, it should be absolute and that’s their only protection? Arundhati Roy: I think so because if you look at the facts, you have outfits like VHP or the Bajrang Dal or the CD that the BJP produced during the UP elections, you see that they do what they want to do. The powerful always do what they want to do. It is the powerless and the vulnerable that need free speech. Karan Thapar: Let’s explore the position that you’re taking – free speech is an absolute freedom and there should be no limitations on it. What about the view that by criticising Islam, Taslima has offended beliefs which for tens of millions of Indians, maybe for hundreds of millions are sacred? These are beliefs that underlie their dignity and their sense of identity. Should freedom of speech extend that far as to threaten people’s sense of themselves? Arundhati Roy: I don’t believe that a write like Taslima Nasreen can undermine the dignity of ten million people. Who is she? She is not a scholar of Islam. She does not even claim that Islam is her subject. She might have said extremely stupid things about Islam. I have no problem with the quotations that I have heard from her book. Dwikhandito has not been translated into English but let’s just assume that what she said was stupid and insulting to Islam but you have to be prepared to be insulted by something that insignificant. Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you some of the things that she said, not from Dwikhandito, but from an interview she gave to Anthony McIntyre, The Blanket in 2006. She says, “It’s not true that Islam is good for humanity. It’s not at all good. Islam completely denies human rights.” Elsewhere she talks about what she calls the venomous snake of Islam. To me that sounds as if it goes perhaps beyond a simple critique and into deliberate provocation. Arundhati Roy: It sounds like Donald Rumsfeld or some Christian fundamentalist. Karan Thapar: And you would rile at him so why not rile at her? Arundhati Roy: Yeah, but I wouldn’t say ban him or kill him. I would say what a ridiculous person. What a ridiculous thing. How can you start reacting to everything like that? We have an infinite number of stupidities in the world. How can you start having your foundations rocked by every half-wit? Karan Thapar: Let’s put it like this, does freedom of speech necessarily include the right to offend? Arundhati Roy: Obviously it includes the right to offend otherwise it wouldn’t be the freedom of speech. Karan Thapar: But is that an acceptable right in India? Arundhati Roy: One person’s offence is another person’s freedom. Karan Thapar: That maybe so in England and America where Western levels of education have allowed people to hear something offensive without reacting violently. In India, where the education levels are so disparate, where religion is so emotionally and passionately held, then if you have the freedom of speech merging into the right to offend, you end up provoking people often to violence, sometimes to death. Arundhati Roy: First of all, I think we have to understand that education is a very loaded term because modernity is what is creating some of this kind of radical fundamentalism. And it’s not like traditional India anymore. In fact, if you look at any studies that have been done, actually communal riots have increased. Karan Thapar: Aren’t you evading my point? You’re questioning what is meant by modernity and education but you and I know that the levels of sophistication in terms of being able to handle offence to your religion or criticism of your God vary hugely. Arundhati Roy: What I am saying is that level of sophistication is far better in rural areas than urban areas. Karan Thapar: You mean that rural Indians are better able to take criticism of Ram or Allah? Arundhati Roy: If you look at the kind of riots in rural and urban areas, you’ll see that, historically. Karan Thapar: Let me give you a specific example. If criticism of Islam by Taslima Nasreen leads to a situation where people come out and riot on the streets and there is a real genuine threat that innocent people could end up killed, what in that circumstance should be the government’s priority — to defend freedom of speech or prevent the loss of human lives? Arundhati Roy: I don’t think that’s a choice. I think they have to protect freedom of speech and do everything that they can to prevent the loss of human life because here what is happening is that this kind of right to offend or ‘my sentiments have been hurt’ have become a business in democratic politics. Let’s say the political parties are engineering these situations which lead to a loss of life otherwise why should it be that Dwikhandito has been on the bestseller list for four years in West Bengal and nothing has happened and suddenly when there’s a massive march and a massive mobilisation against the CPM, the book suddenly reappears as insulting people’s faith? Karan Thapar: So you’re saying mischief makers, manipulators whipped up sentiments four or five years after the book was published, to deliberately try and corner Taslima and to create an atmosphere that perhaps worked in some peculiar way to the advantage of the West Bengal government? Arundhati Roy: Look at who’s benefiting from it. All the anger about Nandigram has now suddenly turned to us asking the same state that criminally killed people in Nandigram to now protect Taslima Nasreen. Karan Thapar: Are you trying to suggest that perhaps that the West Bengal government was in some way involved in engineering this incident to deflect attention from Nandigram to Taslima? Arundhati Roy: I would say that it would have had a lot to do with it and I am saying that it is so easy to do these things. Karan Thapar: When the situation happened, it would have perhaps been judged as Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee’s dilemma. Perhaps as a poet and author he felt a need to defend or desire to protect the freedom of speech. As a Chief Minister, undoubtedly he knew that he had the duty to stop and prevent the loss of human life. If therefore, by putting pressure on Taslima Nasreen to leave the state for a while, he was able to save ten or fifteen lives that would have otherwise been lost on the streets of Calcutta, did he not do the right thing? Arundhati Roy: No, I don’t think so. I think that’s the game that they would like us to play. ‘I did it in order to defend innocent lives.’ But I think there’s a deeper script in the understanding of what is known as the deep state. I think that this was a provocation that actually could have ended up creating a loss of lives because, I want to go back to it, why should it be that for four years that book was on the market and no lives were lost. Everything is in the timing. Karan Thapar: So you really do believe, when you use phrases like the deep state that there was a conspiracy, even though we don’t fully understand it, to deflect attention from Nandigram to Taslima and to perhaps put her in a position where under pressure she was forced to leave and the government didn’t actually have to physically throw her out? Arundhati Roy: I wouldn’t use the word conspiracy because that sounds like an intelligence operation and I don’t think that something like this needs to go as far as a conspiracy but I would certainly say that you need to examine the timing of this because that’s all we are ever left in India. No one ever gets to the bottom of anything. It is always like, who benefits, why did this happen now. I would like to know, why it happened now. Karan Thapar: So you’re saying something that’s pretty fundamental. You’re saying that far more simple —as you did at the beginning— that the West Bengal government behaved unacceptably. Now you’re saying that there was almost Machiavellian intent, not a conspiracy but a Machiavellian intent behind the way they have played this game out? Arundhati Roy: You are making it sound like I have a very deep insight. Karan Thapar: No, you have a deep distrust and a huge suspicion. Arundhati Roy: That’s true but I also know that this is the word on the street. You don’t need a rocket scientist to figure this out. It is something that we have seen happening over and over again. It is nothing new or amazing that’s happening. Karan Thapar: Let’s turn to the Central Government’s response to Taslima Nasreen. Speaking in parliament on Wednesday, Pranab Mukherjee said that India would continue extend protection and sanctuary to Taslima Nasreen and then he added that it is also expected that guests will refrain from activities and expressions that may hurt the sentiments of our people. How do you respond to that? Arundhati Roy: It is like being sentenced to good behaviour for the rest of your life which is a death sentence for a writer. If I had to live somewhere in those conditions, I would become a yoga instructor or something. I would give up writing because this is such a nasty thing to do. Here is a woman who is a Bengali writer. She can’t function outside. It’s a question of principle anyway. It is not about her, it is about us. What kind of society are we creating? Sure it’s tough to take the kind of things she said about Islam but she should be put in her place, intellectually and otherwise. Not like this where she will become a martyr to somebody else. Karan Thapar: When Pranab Mukherjee says that it is expected that guests will refrain from activities and expressions that may hurt the sentiments of our people, is he in a very real sense giving Muslim fundamentalists a veto, both over what Taslima can write and say and therefore whether she can stay in Calcutta? Arundhati Roy:Who does he mean when he says ‘our people’? Am I included for example? Because by saying this he certainly hurt my sentiments. You can’t really match people’s sentiments. Karan Thapar: You are quite right. ‘Our people’ includes the whole range of people but I suspect that when he says our people he had those who we were protesting against Taslima on the streets of Calcutta in mind. Has he, therefore, given them a veto over what she can write and say, and therefore a veto over whether she can continue to live in Calcutta? Arundhati Roy:It is not her. He has taken a veto over all of us. I mean I have also been told by the Supreme Court that you will behave yourself and you will write how we ask you to write. I will not. I hope that is extended to everybody here. Karan Thapar: Given that Taslima’s case is not a unique case, you’ve suffered as you said at the hands of the Supreme Court, M F Hussain has suffered, art students in Baroda have suffered, even people doing cartoons and satires of Gandhi on YouTube have suffered, are we an intolerant people? Arundhati Roy: We’re just messy people. Either we have the principle of free speech or you have caveats that will fill up this whole room and we will all just be silenced. There will be no art, there will be no music and there will be no cinema. Karan Thapar: Are you moving in that direction where caveats to free speech are becoming so many that there is no freedom to be artistic? Arundhati Roy: What I am saying here does not matter. I might believe in this but I know that tomorrow I have to deal with the thugs of the government, courts of the fundamentalist and everybody else. In order to live here you have to think that you are living in the midst of a gang war. So what I believe in or don’t believe in is only theoretical. However, how I practice is a separate matter. How I survive here is like surviving amongst thugs. Karan Thapar: But then the corollary to what you’re saying is very important. You’re saying that artists, particularly those who see things differently, particularly those who are stretching out and wanting to be new and avant-garde, have to contend with the thugs, as you call them, with the government and the majority that’s trying to push them back. Arundhati Roy: We do and we will. The thing is that I also don’t expect to be mollycoddled. I know that we have a fight on our hands and how do we survive in this gang war. The state is just another gang, as far as I am concerned. Karan Thapar: So you’re saying that it is not easy to be different in India? Arundhati Roy:Well, it’s challenging and we accept that challenge. Karan Thapar: What’s your advice to Taslima Nasreen? Arundhati Roy: I really don’t have any advice. I feel very bad for her because, let me say this, her’s is actually the tragedy of displacement. Once, she has been displaced from her home. She has no rights. She is a guest and she is being treated very badly. She is being humiliated. Karan Thapar: Arundhati Roy, it was a pleasure talking to you on Devil’s Advocate. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 00:09:03 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 18:39:03 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] French Embassy says Bangladeshi concerns are "objectionable & insulting" Message-ID: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ The following reference documents/links have been added to the Guimet blog entry: 1. Fact-Finding Committee Report: Pg 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 2. Protesters Battle Police As Musee Guimet Trucks Roll Out 3. Shahidul Alam: Price of Priceless Objects 4. Shahidul Alam: Missing Jigsaw Pieces 5. Letter To The French Government & Citizens 6. Anisur Rahman: Collected Media Reports 7. French Embassy:Bangladeshi Protesters are "Misleading the public again!" 8. French Ambassador: Protesters concerns are "objectionable and insulting" 9. Kwame Opoku: Musee Guimet holds "thousands of stolen objects" 10. Afrikanet: France & The Stolen Art Of Others 11. Major Robberies At French Museums 12. Louvre refuses Turkish demand for Ottoman Tiles 13. Declaration on the Importance and Value of Universal Museums 14. "Complete" documentation as per French Embassy, with missing Accession Numbers: 1, 2 15. Contract Between Culture Ministry & French Ambassador From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Mon Dec 3 03:33:02 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 22:03:02 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy on Taslima Nasreen and Nandigram: Interview on IBNlive.com with Karan Thapar In-Reply-To: <6d314634a912081012988f8882fc055e@sarai.net> Message-ID: <489001.44584.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> As much as I am an admirer of A Roy's wit and intelligence and her stance on various issues;I don't agree with her stance on this particular one,that is,if one can call it one. 1. I wonder why people try to argue away the offense felt by someone with statements like "its too great a religion and should not be bothered by something so inconsequential" ,which is very subjective.If someone gets shot by a gun,do you treat the wound or try to argue it away somehow,that oh you shouldn't feel the pain it shouldn't really hurt etc.? A non physical offense felt by a person is as real as a physical one. You can say that you have got to put up with it;but saying that you shouldn't actually have felt it in the first place;is just plain silly and condescending. 2.I have said this before and I want to repeat it. We should not shy away from making the distinction between genuine critique and downright provocation,politically correct reductionism not withstanding. Its not that difficult.When you read or come across something,you can easily make it out.The printing of Mohammed cartoons repeatedly was provocation,not a genuine critique.Some of the language used by Taslima falls in the same category,as Karan Thapar has rightly pointed out. 3.I think that the "unwashed masses",rural or urban,feel that the media and the intelligentsia have an "up yours" attitude towards them and I dont blame them for it.If some people in the media would have come out and called Taslima, Hussain etc for bad taste;the unwashed masses would probably not have wanted to get them banned etc They probably feel that they do not have a voice in media,which is what shapes the thoughts and minds and thats why they try to take matters into their own hands. regards Rahul --- shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > Dear All, > > (Apologies for Cross Posting on Reader List and > Kafila.org) > > As we have been discussing both Nandigram and the > situation that Taslima > Nasreen has found herself over the last few weeks, I > thought that it might > be interesting to listen in on a conversation that > Karan Thapar has had > with the writer Arundhati Roy that takes on both > these questions. This > interview was broadcast earlier today on CNN-IBN. I > found the transcript on > the IBNlive.com website > > regards > > Shuddha > > ------------------------------------------ > > Transcript of Arundhati Roy interviewed on the > treatment of Taslima Nasreen > by Karan Thapar on 'Devil's Advocate', broadcast > this evening on CNN-IBN > > The transcript was published on Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at > 20:32, on the CNN IBN > website > http://www.ibnlive.com/news/if-treated-like-taslima-id-give-up-writing/53464-3-single.html > > To watch the video of the interview - see - > http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/53464/12_2007/devils_arundathi1/if-treated-like-taslima-id-give-up-writing.html > > --------------------------------------------- > > Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate. How do > India’s leading authors > respond to the treatment given to Taslima Nasreen > over the last 14 days? > That’s the key issue I shall explore today with > Booker Prize- winning > novelist Arundhati Roy. > > Karan Thapar: Arundhati Roy, let me start with that > question. How do you > respond to the way Taslima Nasreen has been treated > for almost 14 days now? > > Arundhati Roy: Well, it is actually almost 14 years > but right now it is > only 14 days and I respond with dismay but not > surprise because I see it as > a part of a larger script where everybody is saying > their lines and > exchanging parts. > > Karan Thapar: She, I believe, has been in touch with > you . What has she > told you about the experience that she has been > through? > > Arundhati Roy:Well I have to say that I was > devastated listening to what > she said because here’s this woman in exile and > all alone. Since August > she’s been under pressure, she says, from the West > Bengal police who > visit her everyday saying, “Get out of here. Go to > Kerala, go to Europe > or go to Rajasthan. Do anything but get out of here. > People are trying to > kill you,” not offering to protect her but saying > get out. On 15th > November when there was this huge march in Calcutta > against Nandigram, they > said, “Now you’re going to be killed so we’re > going to move you from > your flat to some other place” and they did it but > they withdrew most of > her security which is paradoxical because on the day > when she was > supposedly the most under the threat, she had no > protection. A few days > later they gave her a ticket and pushed her out of > the state. > > Karan Thapar: Listening to the story she told you > about herself, do you > believe that the West Bengal government’s > behaviour has been unacceptable? > > Arundhati Roy: Well it has been utterly, > ridiculously unacceptable. I mean, > what can I say? Here you have a situation where > you’re really threatening > and coercing a person. > > Karan Thapar: Far from protecting her, they were > threatening her? > > Arundhati Roy: Absolutely. > > Karan Thapar: What about Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee? He > is a poet, he is an > author; how does he emerge from this story? > > Arundhati Roy: He emerges from the story, as far as > I am concerned, as the > principal scriptwriter who managed quite cleverly to > shift all the > attention from Nandigram to Taslima and Taslima is > not the person who is > displacing the poor peasants of Nandigram. She is > not the person who is > robbing people of their daily. > > Karan Thapar: So he used her as a pawn to take the > pressure off himself in > terms of Nandigram? > > Arundhati Roy: I think very successfully because we > are discussing her and > not Nandigram right now. > > Karan Thapar: So he’s failed to stand by any of > the constitutional duties > that as a Chief Minister he should have upheld? > > Arundhati Roy: I should say at this point that we do > not have the > constitutional right to free speech. We have many > caveats between us and > free speech so maybe he has upheld the > constitutional rights to us not > having free speech. > > Karan Thapar: On Friday, Taslima announced that > three pages from her > autobiography Dwikhandito, which allegedly had given > offence to critics, > are to be withdrawn. Do you see that as a sensible > compromise or a mistake? > > Arundhati Roy: Well, neither. She does not have any > choices. She is just > like a person who has now got the protection of the > mafia which is the > state in some way. She has nowhere to go. She has no > protection. She just > has to blunder her way through this kind of > humiliation and I really feel > for her. > > Karan Thapar: You used an interesting phrase. You > said she has to blunder > her way through this humiliation. Was withdrawing > those three pages, > admittedly under pressure, a blunder? > > Arundhati Roy: I don’t know. Honestly, we can all > be very brave in the > security of our lives but she has nobody to turn to > and nowhere to go. I > don’t know what I would have done in that > situation. > > Karan Thapar: She had no other choice, perhaps. > > Arundhati Roy:She really is in a mess. I think it is > a reflection on all of > us. > > Karan Thapar: Let’s come to the issues and the > principle that underlie > what I call the Taslima Nasreen story. To begin > with, do you view freedom > of speech as an absolute freedom, without any > limitations or would you > accept that there are certain specific constraints > that we all have to > accept? > > Arundhati Roy: It is a complicated question and has > been debated often. I > personally, do view it as something that should have > no caveats for this > simple reason that in a place where there are so > many contending beliefs, > so many conflicting things, only the powerful will > then decide what those > caveats should be and those caveats will always be > used by the powerful. > > Karan Thapar: So you’re saying that given the fact > that many people are > vulnerable, freedom of speech for them should have > no caveats, it should be > absolute and that’s their only protection? > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 04:34:00 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 23:04:00 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] "Final" Interim Report on Citizens' Visit to Nandigram In-Reply-To: <556b1d6b0712010957y1a463168pd19fbc262f8d5b7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <556b1d6b0711301153x1899c04bvde0351d7917ac6ae@mail.gmail.com> <556b1d6b0712010957y1a463168pd19fbc262f8d5b7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <475339C6.6020705@gmail.com> Sujata and Samantak, Was this question asked on the list? If so, I seem to have missed it. Tapas Sujata & Samantak wrote: > Dear All, > As mentioned in my earlier post, here's the "Final" Interim Report. > > One member of this list asked, "Was it interim report, where all the > balancing acts were incomplete, so have to be given finishing touches by the > spin doctors of media?" From arshad.mcrc at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 10:34:36 2007 From: arshad.mcrc at gmail.com (arshad amanullah) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 05:04:36 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Second National Workshop of Muslim NGO's Message-ID: <2076f31d0712022104v90aade1nff207f2cc146c9f3@mail.gmail.com> The Second National Workshop of Muslim NGO's (working in the field of Education, Child Care, Women Empowerment, Social Development, Health Sector and Rural Development) is going to be held in New Delhi from 4-6th January 2008. It is expected that around 300 or so Muslim NGO's would participate in the workshop. The Workshop would be second in the series after first ever attempt to organise Muslim NGOs the First National Workshop of Muslim NGO's was held in December 2006. It should be mentioned that 325 delegates from 19 States had attended the workshop. A number of Central Ministers and Government officials beside a good number of experts and representatives of foreign Muslim funding Agencies addressed the gathering. MOEMIN general secretary and National Integration Council member Naved Hamid says that this was the first time that a large number of Muslim NGOs from different parts of the country gathered to discuss the development of the community at large. All the Muslim NGO's interested to attend the Workshop can contact Mr. Navaid Hamid, General Secretary, MOEMIN for registration and inquiries on : 011 23923786 / 23261369/ 09811643929 or moemin.navaid at gmail.com. Arshad Amanullah From logos.theword at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 10:52:09 2007 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 05:22:09 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] In A Nameless Place In-Reply-To: <33bc2ee60712020933w5c3b9a48p8f76bd909f5d8888@mail.gmail.com> References: <33bc2ee60712020933w5c3b9a48p8f76bd909f5d8888@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60712022122o5d688daduc9e07e512663c99a@mail.gmail.com> This is a work in progress. Arka Mukhopadhyay I These things will remain - The echo of birdwings, The stories that the wind Whispered into the ears of the grass, And the bloodstains on the water - These shall not pass. II In Moscow it is snowing But winter here comes with a blizzard of wrath Cold as a steel tube Wending its way up a uterus III C'est la lutte finale Groupons-nous, et demain L'Internationale Sera le genre humain Clench your fists and arise, The drumbeat of your feet shall wipe the past clean - We shall destroy it whole, down to its roots And over the landscape of history that we will write, A blood-red sun will rise. IV nous sommes Le grand parti des travailleurs We are The great party of workers, The earth belongs only to us. And you, women, You who bear the earth's memories in your breasts - When our victorious army marches Over the map of your body, There shall be no shelter beneath withered trees, No trail of retrun over the scorched ground. -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is 't to leave betimes? Let be. From anansi1 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 3 11:46:48 2007 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 06:16:48 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Lawrence Lessig, Dj Spooky: Creative Commons 5th Anniversary Message-ID: <29290466.1196662601443.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hello you all - as many of the people on this list might know, I'm an artist whose work posits digital media as an extension of many issues that face contemporary art and aesthetics, and in that context, I'd like to extend an invitation to those from the list who live in San Francisco to come check out the Creative Commons 5th Anniversary. Every aspect of the event will be open source. And yes folks - it's contemporary art. in peace, Paul aka DJ Spooky Date: December 15th Time: 10pm-2am Venue: Terra Gallery 511 Harrison st San Francisco CA 94105 web info: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/birthday_party "CC is turning 5 and to celebrate we’re throwing a community-wide party. If you’ll be in the San Francisco Bay Area on December 15, join us for a night of celebrating the commons at a party generously sponsored by Mozilla and Last.fm. The evening will feature announcements by Joi Ito and Lawrence Lessig, a live acoustic performance by Gilberto Gil, video remixing by Phi Phenomenon, and open source, remixable music and video provided by Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky. Space is limited so please RSVP to party at creativecommons.org as soon as possible to let us know if you will be joining us (seriously, please do this!). Details are listed on our birthday flyer. If you’re not in the Bay Area, don’t worry. There will also be parties in Berlin and New York City. For more details about these events, or if you want to register a party in your own part of the world, check out our wiki page for more information. Air Mozilla will be streaming Gilberto Gil’s performance for those who won’t be able to attend any of the parties. And of course, please feel free to celebrate CC in Second Life as well. No matter where you are in the world, we invite you to celebrate CC’s five years of helping to keep culture free and celebrate the future of participatory culture." via Cory Doctorow From whitenoise24 at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 11:52:41 2007 From: whitenoise24 at gmail.com (sridevi panikkar) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 06:22:41 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Protest Orissa Govt and POSCO's ruthless volence against people (Delhi demo) Message-ID: Dear friends and comrades, Delhi Solidarity Group, National Forum of Forest People and Forest Workers, Campaign for Survival and Dignity, National Alliance of People's Movements (Delhi), join the KSG in protesting this ruthless violence against the people by Orissa Govt and POSCO company... we strongly condemn this undemocratic suppression of a peaceful people's movement for protection of their rights and resources. Kindly join the Tuesday demonstration at Delhi's Orissa Niwas at Chanakyapuri at 10.30 am (onwards) and thereafter for a press conference at the Press Club at Raisina Marg at 1.30 pm - where some comrades from Jagatsingpur, Orissa will also talk about the extent of violence unleashed by Orissa Govt and POSCO goonds on people. for Delhi Solidarity Group *Protest against the violent repression of POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti in Orissa * *Join in huge numbers on Tuesday* ** Please join in condemning the brutal and heinous attack on the peaceful protest of POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti at Jagatsingpur in Orissa on Thursday the 29 th. At least 17 people were injured when supporters of a local MLA, armed with lethal weapons and crude bombs attacked the members of anti-POSCO group near the proposed site for the steel plant. The attackers threw about 6 bombs at the agitators; many were critically injured. The police and the district administration intervened only after the clashes took place. Friends, at the moment, around 16 platoons of police force have cordoned off village Dhinkia where at least 1000 villagers are trapped. The violence wreaked on the people is completely state sponsored to take over the areas that are the strongest base of the POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti at Jagatsingpur. The situation right now is volatile and further state violence seems inevitable. It is not a clash of pro and anti POSCO people as the media and the Orissa government are claiming --- it is a desperate bid to pave the way for the South Korean corporate giant POSCO by using state force. Support the struggling people opposing the POSCO project by joining us in the dharana. Assemble around 10.45 on the road outside the Orissa Nivas. We will present a memorandum to the Resident Commissioner that will be signed by all organizations present. Do forward this mail and tell as many people to come with banners, songs, slogans and join the protest. *Time: 11 am* *Venue: Orissa Nivas, Bordoloi Marg, Chanakyapuri* *Date: Tuesday the 4th of Dec.* ** *In solidarity,* ** D Manjit and Nagraj Adve On behalf of Kashipur Solidarity Group and Others From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 12:06:52 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 06:36:52 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] ViBGYOR 2008 : Call for Entries: Submission Deadline Extended Message-ID: <4753F120.1050705@gmail.com> The Deadline for Film Submission is Extended to December 25th , 2007. Submit your Films as early as possible ==Call For Entries== 2008 February 13-17, Thrissur, Kerala, India Have you or your friends made any Documentary or Short Fiction or Music Video or Animation or Spot films recently? Then this is a Wonderful Opportunity for You We at the ViBGYOR Film Collective, invite your films to the 3rd edition of the ViBGYOR Short and Documentary Film Festival, to be held from February 13th- 17th, 2008 in Thrissur, Kerala, India. ViBGYOR is a meeting place for filmmakers, social activists and media students, a dedicated place for films on social and environmental issues, and a campaign space for people's movements. Films can be submitted under the following categories. There is no Entry Fee for the Non-Competitive categories. All films entered in all categories will go through a Pre-selection round. The Last Date for submission is December 25, 2007 (Extended) (post marked) 1.ViBGYOR Theme Packages Gender and Sexuality Dalit Reality Indigenous People Fundamentalism v/s Diversity Globalisation Nation State Region Focus – Eastern India 2. Focus of the Year: ENERGY 3. Music Videos, Animation, Experimentals (Micro films, Mobilephone films etc) 4. Competition Section : KERALA SPECTRUM (restricted to residents of Kerala) In the Competition Section, filmmakers residing in Kerala can submit their films, both documentary and short fiction. The documentaries should have themes dealing with Kerala society, life and culture. Short fiction does not have thematic specification. Only films made after January 1, 2006 are eligible for participating in the competition. There is an entry fee of Rs.500/-. The Demand Draft should be send favouring ViBGYOR Film Collective payable at Thrissur. Join in the Official ViBGYOR egroup for your questions related to the Event http://groups.google.com/group/vibgyorfest Entry Form Can be Downloaded From here Rules & Regulations for ViBGYOR 08 is available at http://2008.vibgyorfilm.com/rulesandregulations For more information contact 9447000830/9446529991/0487-2330830 Email: vibgyorfilmfest at gmail.com Website of ViBGYOR 2008: http://www.vibgyorfilm.com Two DVD copies of your films along with the Entry Form, Film stills and Director's photograph should be sent to: ViBGYOR Festival office Chetana Media Institute 3rd Floor, Kalliath Royal Square, Palace Road Thrissur, Kerala, India – 680 020 -- Anivar Aravind For ViBGYOR Collective From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Dec 3 12:59:35 2007 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 07:29:35 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudijudges In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70711300043t1c3d3ff5vcfc303fddcc99c11@mail.gmail.com> <"d0 5b3e6c17efe60c1b45cc6856f9b311"@sarai.net> <"6b79f1a70711302112r2edf5507y31be2 34c62a232d8"@mail.gmail.com> <5f79ff834aa9019a5087d3ff62d09cd5@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70712010917g54e4ff87w94e9c10a6e61b632@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, it is a sensible reply to intolerent individual in the society where intolerence has peaked to be nonsensical.With the type of judiciary we have in free India where it takes months to adjudicate any issue, the scare of defamation suit is even more insulting addition to mental injury as the long winding process of law is more a mockery of process of justice. And as to investigation of the police, be it state or central investigation agencies such as CBI, it is a joke to laugh at. CBI has a modus operandi where it gathers all evidence and then for considerations of power, politicians positions, and riches dilutes the evidence against the culprits, and throws the weakest into the ring for wolves in prosecution to feast on as the society enjoys the drama of prosecution like the fight of gladiators. As the rich Moninder singh with political connections and riches gets away, his servant is cut to size in the guise of justice delivery. As uncle Q gets all the kickbacks of bofors , his niece rules the nation for more kickbacks thanks to our "investigators" in CBI who can not book a single goon of Sanjays days, then cronies of rajiv, now ministers in governance for the riots they had when the tree fell. ? Worst punishment a citizen can suffer is the "prosecution" in court of law for any kind of alleged offence and not the punishment awarded by the court of law. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pawan Durani Date: Monday, December 3, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Rape Victim ordered 200 lashes and prison by Saudijudges To: shuddha at sarai.net Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Hello Shudha , > > NamaskAr.........Hope you dont term me a rightist for using > "NamaskAr" word. > > I could sense from your mail the anger and helplessness you feel . > Beforeyou advise me to chill , please apply that to yourself. > > I still do not understand as to if arguing with me is so > insignificant or > minor , what motivates you to reply to each of my post even if really > doesn't matter . I know somewhere you know the truth as well , and > it is an > ego in you which keeps you defending yourself and attacking my > nationalisticviewpoint. > > If I write about Pseudo secularists in general , you take it as an > insult to > yourself . If I talk about hollow intellectualism which some > believe in ,you > again take it so personally . C'mon .....Chill. I may be referring > aboutsomeone else as well. > > Well , about your research about iconoclasm , the less said the > better . My > knowledge about Kashmir has its roots well before google was > invented. And > for those who want to make rest of world believe that humans came > out of > eggs, google would help them write long long stories. > > About my posts on various subject, i believe Partha may like to > confirm it > .,....i have at many instances posted an article which I found > interesting . > And whenever someone replied , i just said that these views were not > necessarily mine . I always provide a link to the original. I do > not blame > you for not understanding these basics......i have learnt it long > back.....it may take you few more years. > > And about your threat of defamation , well I am scared. So should > others be > in this society of double standards . Where a person defends > Hussain but is > planning to to encourage people to file a defamation against me. > > I wonder what others have to say about threat of Shudha. > > I am just too scared to write ........and wont dare to write the > word Pseudo > Secularist and hollow intellectual again..... > > But are you one for real ? > > Pawan > > > > On 12/1/07, shuddha at sarai.net < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > I am well aware of the ground realities of any situation I > choose to write > > about. I am sure, that you must be aware by now that I make it > my business > > > > to research anything that I write about on the reader list in > some detail. > > > > I suggest you take a close look at your own levels of awareness > of what > > you > > claim as your own history (I notice, for instance, that there is > as yet no > > > > reply from you or Rashneek to my annotations on the history of > iconoclasm> in Kashmir). > > > > And no, I am neither a member, nor a sympathizer of any "M-L > type of > > organization". I would urge you not to make public assumptions > about the > > biographies of individuals you do not know. It's risky, you end > up running > > the risk of being called either a liar, or being exposed as > being very > > ignorant. You also run the risk of being accused (rightly, in my > opinion)> of defamation if you continue to articulate assumptions > of this nature on > > any public platform. So, be careful. > > > > I think that your problem is that you want to put people into > neat boxes, > > on which you want to put labels that your limited understand can > make> snese > > of, and then assign you assign to these lablels - roles in the > shadow> boxing joust of your own imagination. So, first you > decided that you would > > corner us by sending us the details of the atrocities of so called > > communist regimes, then, when we argued that the atrocities of > so called > > communist regimes are indefensible, you changed tack. When we argued > > strongly against the atrocities of regimes led by communist > parties, such > > as has happenned in West Bengal, you turned around and defended > Buddhadeb> Bhattacharya. > > > > You tried to invoke Sethusamudran, then, when we said yes, > Sethusamudran> was a bad idea, you had no space left to squirm. > Then you post some > > atrocity in Saudi Arabia, and we say, yes Saudi Arabia is hell, > and now, > > you have less and less room to maneuver. Really, it must be hard > being> you. > > > > Finally, whenever you have nothing left to say, when your > arguments are in > > > > shambles, when your misrepresentations stand exposed, you invoke > and hurl > > the term 'intellectual' as a term of abuse. As if the work of > evolving a > > critical understanding of the world were something to be ashamed > of. I see > > > > no reason to be ashamed of intellectual work, just as I see no > reason to > > be > > ashamed or any other kind of human activity. Can you imagine a > situation> where we would go around churlishly accusing each other > of being 'pastry > > cooks', or 'dancers' or 'acrobats' or 'steelworkers' or 'photo shop > > operators' whenever we were faced with the weakness of our own > positions> and arguments. It would be absured. It would actually > be pathetic. And > > when > > you cry 'intellectual' you sound just as absurd, just as > pathetic, just as > > infantile. > > > > You write, you argue, you try to present your view of the world. > > Unfortunately, that makes you an intellectual. Just as what I do > makes me > > an intellectual. There can be debate about the quality of our > arguments,> about how well they stand up to reason, and to the > complexities of our > > times. There can be arguments about whether or not our > intellectual work > > is > > of any value. But accusing people of being 'intellectuals' per > se, is > > frankly, neither here, nor there. It is a meaningless statement. > > > > We all have a lot of things to do in our lives. And believe me, > arguing> with you is only a very minor, highly insignificant > detail in the rich > > tapestry of our days. Regardless, it shall continue to be done, > whenever> it > > is crucially necessary for it to be done. Take my advice, relax, > chill> out, > > think about a few things other than what you have made your pet > obsession,> and don't jump to the gun all the time. You misfire, > badly. And sometimes > > the bullets ricochet in your own direction. Or as we might say > in football > > > > parlance "self-goal se bachte raho saathi" ("stay clear of self > goals,> friend") > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 10:42 am 12/01/07 "Pawan Durani" < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Shuddha , While as you have an obsession with Modi and > looking at > > how > > > few of you try to link everything and anything communal > happening with > > > Modi , I wonder where does your conscience lead to ? Each time you > > > quote " Indian States Military Occupation In Kashmir > " , > > > without knowing the ground reality talk of your ignorance of > the ground > > > reality . You would be ready to accept figures given by a > terrorist or > > > a separatist organisation and at the same time averse to the real > > > figures. Each time you tend to ignore the genocide of hindus which > > > happened over a period of time , but you feel merry to spread > > > discontent among minorties by harping on a one time incident of > > > Gujarat. Each time you talk about structure of Ram Temple being > > > destroyed [ which some of you called Babri ] , and at the same > time non > > > of you have ever discussed hundreds of temples being broken > down to > > > peices in Kashmir . Each time you talk about liberty of > expression and > > > at the same time you want all these liberties to be taken with > Hindu> > relegion. Each time you talk of secular parties which you > love even > > > though thay may be aligned with a ML type of organisation and > at the > > > same time you need an anti allergic tablet if BJP is called > secularist> > as well. Each time you speak of evil in Babu > bajrangi but you have > > > closed your thoughts for Yasin Maliks , Bitta karate and > Hamdanis. Cmon > > > ...get over Modi fixation . get over your thought that Indian > state has > > > "occupied" Kashmir. Get over that Military is anti > people in > > > Kashmir . Get real.....life is much more real than typing few > words on > > > the keyboard. Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 11/30/07, shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Pawan, > > > > > > Hell comes in different flavours, as I tried to explain in an > earlier> > post, and as is evident from your posting of the brutal > treatment> > meted out to a young woman who has been the victim of > gang rape in > > > Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > Being against one kind of hell does not mean that we have to > be the > > > partisans of other kinds of hell, elsewhere. The kind of > intellectual> > that I find interesting it the one who has no > problem at all in terms > > > of evolving an engaged critique of oppression, no matter what > form it > > > takes, no matter where it occurs. That is why, despite our respect > > > for people like Noam Chomsky, some of us took it upon > ourselves to > > > sharply criticize his prevaricating apology for the 'Left > > > Front' government's violence against its own subjects > in West > > > Bengal > > > > > > And so, contrary to your expectations, some of those of us who > have> > been active on this list in arguing against the Indian > state's> > military occupation of the Kashmir valley have had > no problems at all > > > in being determined in our opposition to oppression when it > occurs in > > > Left Front ruled West Bengal, in the current conditions of > military> > dictatorship in Burma and Pakistan, or for that matter > when it occurs > > > under the aegis of the Ibn Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. > Tomorrow, if > > > North Korea were to be discussed on this list, I would be certain > > > that there will be clear arguments on this list against the > imbecilic> > regime that rules North Korea at the moment. The list > can be > > > justifiedly expanded to include Iran, the United States, > Russia and > > > many other countries and states. > > > > > > Saudi Arabia is one of the most horrible places on the planet. > It is > > > ruled by a corrupt, decadent ruling elite and kept in place by > money,> > weapons and influence wielded by British and American > corporate> > intersts and foreign policy. If the international > community was > > > justified in operating a set of sanctions against the hated South > > > African apartheid regime, it should have no business in > cosying up to > > > the sexist, slave-owning, xenophobic, anti-semitic Saudi > regime which > > > is the favourite retirement support agency of third rate dictators > > > like Idi Amin and corrupt rulers like Nawaz Sharif. > > > > > > The Saudi Monarchy, which rose to eminence as the stooge of > British> > foreign policy in the middle east in the early > twentieth century > > > presides over an imbecilic and paranoid gloss of Islam, and the > > > particularly Salafist brand of Islam that is held out as an > ideal by > > > the Saudi monarchy and its rented clerics is rightly rejected > by the > > > majority of Muslims in the world. Its significance lies only > in that > > > it is backed by petro-dollars and American fighter jets. > > > > > > One does not have to link the decadence of current Saudi > Arabia to the > > > venality of Moditva/Hindutva. They are two different kinds of > > > abominations that need to be fought, and fought till they are > > > destroyed. I would be just as happy to see Salafist Islamo-fascism > > > perish in Saudi Arabia, as I would be to see the short, sharp > end of > > > Moditva and Hindutva in Gujarat and in India. > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2:13 pm 11/30/07 "Pawan Durani" < > pawan.durani at gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > Would Someone Puhleez link this to Modi , RSS & Hindutva > > > > ..........some intellectual surely would .............. > > > > > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ > > > > http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/rape-victim-ordered- > 200-lashes- > > > and > > > > -prison-by-saudi-judges/ > > > > What can be called a travesty of judiciary, the Saudi > Arabia's> > > Higher Judicial Council has actually sentenced > a rape victim to > > > > receive 200 lashes and prison while the perpetrators of > > > > humanity's most heinous crime were allowed to walk free. > > > > > > > > The 19-year-old Shiite woman who was raped by six armed men was > > > > originally sentenced to receive 90 lashes for traveling in > the car > > > > of an 'unrelated male' at the time of the rape. However > > > > after the woman had the temerity of not unquestioningly > submitting> > > herself to be tortured as punishment of being > raped, the judges on > > > > Saudi Arabia's Higher Judicial Council more than > doubled her > > > > punishment for attempting to influence the judiciary > through the > > > > media. > > > > Her lawyer, human right activist Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, has > been> > > banned from carrying her case further. His license has been > > > > revoked and he has been called to appear before a disciplinary > > > > committee for challenging the judgment, which only punished the > > > > victim of the crime and not its perpetrators. The Sunni rapists > > > > were given a paltry sentence of one to five years of > imprisonment.> > > > > > > This is the horrendous state of a country that keeps its women > > > > forcefully behind veils only to extenuate and encourage heinous > > > > crimes against them in the name of maintaining social > discipline.> > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.ne t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From vivek at sarai.net Mon Dec 3 13:29:10 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 07:59:10 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] General Audience Highlights and Programme for tomorrpw, Tuesday 4 December -- Independent Fellows Workshop Message-ID: <4753B73F.10501@sarai.net> Hi all, Not with the intention to overkill, but I thought you might find it more manageable to get a day-by-day programme. If anybody would like to blog reports on the sessions (and give a link to the reader list) or indeed, write in to this list with comments and questions, that would be very helpful. Critical engagement appreciated! Also, please note that the events from 4-7 December are not at CSDS but in the centre of town, the LTG Auditorium at Mandi House. But first-- highlights of tomorrow that would be good for a general audience: 1. *Curated Multimedia Exhibition* 10.00 am – 8.00 pm Tuesday 4 December – Friday 7 December) (Upstairs) This curated journey gathers together a wide and various range of audio-visual and print material from Sarai’s archives, collected and produced by Independent Fellows. It features photographic work, graphic panels, audio and visual loops, short films, etc., from research areas as diverse as Jazz in Bollywood, glass negatives from early cinema, signage in the Indian city, digital imaging in photo studios, street musicians, video theaters, and much much more… 2. *Special Panel: The Past of Research and the Present of Practice* 4.30—6.30 pm (Main auditorium) Featuring: TP Sabitha, Yousuf Saeed, Mahmood Farooqui and Rahaab Allana Discussant: Shuddhabrata Sengupta How might a detailed study of the past, dredging and building archives, serve not just to make museums, but invigorate and change our sense of the present, feed directly into practice? The panelists, who are all former Sarai-CSDS Independent Fellows, are all people whose research has engaged deeply with the archive, with documents and images from the past. At the same time, as performers, writers, photographers, and filmmakers they are also people who work with and produce highly contemporary forms. TP Sabitha (sabitha_tp @yahoo.co.uk) is a writer who writes in both Malayalam and English, as well as a teacher and researcher of literature and art. Yousuf Saeed (ysaeed7 @yahoo.com) is a filmmaker and writer in Urdu and English. He is currently associated with a new archival initiative for visual culture, TasveerGhar. Mahmood Farooqui (mahmood @sarai.net) is a historian and performance artist. He works with the Independent Fellowship programme and with the translation and editing of Hindi publications at Sarai. Rahaab Allana (rahaab @acparchives.com) currently works as a curator for the Alkazi Foundation for Photography. Shuddhabrata Sengupta (shuddha @sarai.net) is a writer, columnist and media practitioner with training in sociology and filmmaking. He is one of the co-initiators of Sarai, one of the editors of the Sarai Reader series and a member of the Raqs Media Collective. He has contributed numerous scholarly and popular articles in newspapers, magazines, journals, anthologies and books on a range of themes. He coordinates the distributed research network at Sarai. AND THE REST OF TUESDAY'S PROGRAMME BELOW... Thanks Vivek ***************************************************** Tuesday 4 December Venue: LTG Auditorium, Mandi House 10.30 – 12.00 History Versus Reminiscence Chair: Debjani Sengupta [Debjani Sengupta (debjanisgupta @yahoo.com) is an ex independent fellow and teaches English Literature at Indraprastha College, Delhi University. She is the editor of Mapmaking: Partition Stories from two Bengals, and has translated Taslima Nasreen’s Selected Columns. Most recently, she co-edited and wrote Working Questions , the Sarai Independent Fellowship book.] Anuja Ghosalkar Papa Ajoba: My Grandfather, the Film Make Up Artist The project chronicles the life of my grandfather, who was a make up artist in the Hindi film industry from 1941 to 2000: from his early years at Raj Kamal studio with V. Shantaram (when they literally made their own make-up) to his 17 years spent at the Filmistan studio. There is a sharper focus on the 1960’s - when he predominantly worked with Shammi Kapoor, Asha Parekh, Sadhana & Saira Banu. It also documents film history from the point of view of a technician who might lacquer it with his own stories. It is finally, a tribute to a grandfather who narrated stories of his everyday life, not knowing that stories often become history. The research is primarily through interviews. The presentation will be in an audio-visual form with a written essay. Anuja Ghosalkar (anu.ghosalkar @gmail.com) is a lecturer and researcher in film and has been involved with an experimental theatre group in Mumbai for over half a decade. She is currently working with Breakthrough – a globally active human rights organization. Her project blog can be found at: http://www.papaajoba.blogspot.com/ Renee C. Lulam and Julius L. Basaiawmoit Changing Faces of Democratic Spaces in Urban Cosmopolitan Shillong Understanding personal events as profoundly social allows a broader perception of human interactions that have shaped the past and continue into the present. As the research progresses and we meet more people sharing their versions of ‘cosmopolitan’, we find that the backdrop we initially placed the research against has often proven inadequate and therefore challenging. In one of the testimonies, Shillong has been called an ‘artifact of British administration….artificial…’ The place and people are variously known to have been tolerant, narrow, short sighted, confused, but most of all, absorbent. Our intention through this research is to explore the different ways Shillong considers ‘cosmopolitan’. We were fortunate that in the course of our research, an event like the Indian Idol contest took place, evoking an almost ‘patriotic’ fervour over the finalist from Shillong. Many have quoted it as an example of how Shillong has progressed in cosmopolitan tolerance, though much of it was driven by emotion and tended towards the superficial and reactionary, in the observation of some others. Through excerpts of audio interviews, video clips, newspaper or journal articles, photographs, city soundscapes, and an interpretative paper, we will attempt to present a picture of the changing faces of Shillong vis-à-vis the term ‘cosmopolitan’. Julius Basaiawmoit (lemiwell @hotmail.com) specializes in sound for film and television. Renee Lulam (renee75 @gmail.com) works with independent research based projects. Both are from Shillong. Sugata Nandi Eventful Adolescence, Memorable Youth: The Politics of Personal Reminiscence in Calcutta, 1947-1967 Personal reminisces of the adolescents and youths of the 1950s and 1960s in Kolkata, of specific incidents listed above will be gathered through interviews with them. The oral data thus gathered will constitute the primary source for constructing a collage of remembered experiences. The project will treat the same as texts authored by individuals who endeavour to locate and to interpret through the emotional performance of remembering what may be termed as significant episodes in the recent history of the city. The project, on completion of research, will be given the shape of a academic history paper. At the moment I have fixed the target of writing the paper in about 15 thousand words, which might have to be increased if required. As of now I have planned to record (in audio cassettes) the interviews that will constitute the archival text for the work, if resources permit then I would try to make audio-visual record of the interviews. Sugata Nandi (largestriver @hotmail.com) is Lecturer in History, Krishnagar Government College, West Bengal 12.15 – 1.15 Proving Residence Chair: Shveta Sarda [Shveta Sarda (shveta @sarai.net) is a content editor and translator with Sarai. She works in Cybermohalla as a process chronicler and edits the labs' content for diverse circulation – books, website, blogs, broadsheets, and wall magazines. At present she is working with the various research projects at the CM mobile lab. She was part of the editorial collective of the broadsheet series Sarai.txt.] Ajit K. Dwivedi Sealing ke Nazar Mein: Sealing Banam Pusta ka Visthapan (Media Study: Comparative Reporting on Land Ceilings and Displacement from Jamuna Pushta) Ajit K. Dwivedi (dajeet @gmail.com) is a career journalist. He just left Dainik Bhaskar to join ITV News as Associate Editor. Bipul K. Pandey The Residence Proof Bipul Pandey (bipulpandey @gmail.com) worked in print media for nine years. He currently works with Star News as Associate Producer. 1.30 pm – 2.30 pm Sub-metropolitan Dreams Chair: Iram Ghufran [Iram Ghufran (iram @sarai.net) is trained as a media practitioner and works as video/ audio editor in Sarai Media Lab. She has co-researched the work culture of call centres, and is part of the editorial collective of the broadsheet series Sarai.txt. She works on various multimedia, video and audio works produced at Sarai.] Nalin Narain Mathur B-Grade Engineering College Culture Being subjected with the experience of studying at an engineering college, I happened to witness the living experiences, aspirations and values that make an 'engineer' beyond all the techy stuff he learns in the classroom. Add to it the different background and identity of students and the acute realization that "This – is- not – IIT", which more often then not looms large in everyone's conscience. Hence, engineering colleges constitute of interesting and fantastical cultural dynamics wherein a mix of identities, cultures and aspirations are played out in non-metropolitan spaces to get an amalgamation of different worlds in one campus. Through this project I aim to study the phase of social and emotional renaissance which unavoidably crops up during one's stay away from his natural locale. Nalin Narain Mathur (nalin.mathur @gmail.com) works as a systems analyst. He has a Bachelor’s Degree in Mechanical Engineering from Uttar Pradesh Technical University, Lucknow. Syed Zaigham Imam Sapno ke Rail (The Train of Dreams: Narratives from the Allahabad-Jaunpur Passenger Train): a short documentary film If faster trains denote speed and arrival, slower trains can sometimes nurture dreams that compress a lifetime into a few hours. Zaigham’s project is to study how students, literally, arrive at Allahabad. The passenger trains, so called because they stop at even the smallest of stations connecting Allahabad (the educational headquarters of Northern India) to Jaunpur and Faizabad, two towns in the hinterland and encompassing other smaller towns such as Pratapgarh, Mau and Aimma. Sixty percent of the people travelling in these trains are students on their way to Allahabad. Not so much to enroll at the university but to join one of the innumerable coaching centres and to prepare for the Central and Provincial Civil Services Exams. In the seventies and eighties, students from Allahabad dominated the civil service selections, not only at the centre, but also in states such as UP, Bihar, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh. The sons mainly of farmers, who travelled out of the smaller qasbas chasing a dream, even came to be known as ‘collectors.’ What does the inside of these trains look like? Zaigham travels up and down the ravaged trains with missing bulbs, fans and fittings and investigates peculiarities like ACP, a short form for alarm chain pulling. People use it to stop the train at convenient points, an illegal practice that is stoically accepted by the authorities, and most travel ticket-less. The towns and stations falling on the way represent the rise and fall of the qasbas of UP, like Mau Aimma which is an important production centre for crackers. The story of these trains is also a metaphor for the democratisation of higher education that took place in the last three decades of the twentieth century. Through interviews with passengers and train officials, and unsuccessful attempts to get information through the Right to Information Act, Zaigham builds a picture of slow development and the aspiration for a government job that is primary, on the poor students all over India. Trained as a journalist, Zaigham Imam (zaighamimam @rediffmail.com) also writes fiction and is currently trying his hand at filmmaking. He left Amar Ujala recently to work with BAG films. The project is blogged at: http://www.merirail.blogspot.com/ 2.45 – 4.15 Hearing Spaces, Seeing Spaces Chair: Aarti Sethi [Aarti Sethi (aarti.sethi @gmail.com) previously worked with the Sarai Programme; currently she is pursuing her M.Phil in Film Studies at the School of Arts and Aesthetics, JNU.] Shahnawaz Khan Entertainment Ghosts in Srinagar: A Tale of Cinema Halls in the City This study aims to analyse the impact of the closure of cinema halls in Srinagar after the outbreak of armed insurgency in early nineties. Most of the closed cinema halls are occupied by paramilitary troopers and have even functioned as torture centres in the nineties. Some others have changed business. Only one is functional, but not in good condition. Shahnawaz talks to people associated with the trade, cine goers who have been to these halls when they functioned, and the youth today who do not find a place to go for a movie in the city. The study also looks at the psychological impact of these structures in the city, which stand witness to the times they have gone through. Shahnawaz Khan (fsrnkashmir @gmail.com) is a journalist based in Srinagar, associated with the US based Free Speech Radio News. Along with some friends he launched Kashmirnewz.com in 2006. Zubin Pastakia A Photographic Study of Bombay’s Cinema Halls The project seeks to photographically examine the cultural experience of different types of cinema halls in Bombay city. In part, this is a meditation on different urban spaces. More importantly, this is an attempt to illustrate the subjective nature of the film-going experience. From the designer shop - to cinema hall - to chain restaurant mall/multiplex experience, to the still-standing single-screen bastions of the art-deco era, to the musty largely male-dominated "c-grade" halls, the photographs will evoke the unique experience of these different spaces. The intention is to eventually produce a monograph on Bombay's cinema halls as well as to exhibit the photographs publicly. Zubin Pastakia (zubinpastakia @gmail.com) is a photographer and filmmaker living in Bombay. He blogs his photos at: http://peripheralvision.blogspot.com/ Sayandeb Mukherjee Corridors: An Exploration of Sound and Space This project delves into the emotional and acoustic contours of corridors. This contemporary architectural design which may appear simple structurally possesses a complicated and sometimes convoluted auditory space due to reflective and diffractive properties of sound. The project attempts to enlighten the variability of these acoustic qualities/characterestics of corridors integrated in different urban spaces. The process of research includes a vivid physical involvement and exploration in the corridor like spaces, taking notes in a descriptive way in the spot itself, acquiring photographs and live recordings of the acoustic environments at different spots of the same space. The recording process may also involve time stamps (i.e. recordings of the same space over the different parts of a day) for the analysis of the soundscape in a particular space. The process also includes the collection of films, texts or any other form of art, where one can notice a conscious application of such corridor-like spaces. Sayandeb Mukherjee (sayandebmukherjee @yahoo.co.in) is a graduate of the Satyajit Ray Film and Television Institute in Kolkata who now works as a professional sound recordist in Ramoji Film City, Hyderabad. 4.30—6.30 pm Special Panel: The Past of Research and the Present of Practice Featuring: TP Sabitha, Yousuf Saeed, Mahmood Farooqui and Rahaab Allana Discussant: Shuddhabrata Sengupta 7.00—7.30 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Performance Art: “This Evening Too: From Lal Ded to Abdul Ahad Zargar” by Inder Salim: Space limited to 25 persons only—first come, first serve. Inder Salim (indersalim @gmail.com), an Independent Fellow this year, is a performance artist based in Delhi. He blogs his work at: http://indersalim.livejournal.com/ From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 19:13:51 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:43:51 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Lala Rukh Selim on Musee Guimet Message-ID: Link to this op-ed is at: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ Why risk invaluable heritage for vague 'cultural benefits'? By Lala Rukh Selim Dated 29.11.2007 In response to the French, Embassy's reply entitled "Int'l show will bring cultural benefits to Bangladesh" (published in The Daily Star of 27 November 2007) to the statement of four citizens, we would again take this opportunity to voice our confusion as to what exactly are the 'cultural benefits' that are being alluded to? We as Bangladeshis are very secure of the cultural heritage that we have. We are proud of it as it reflects a past of assimilation, integration and syncretism. Any person in the world may learn of our culture spanning thousands of years from many sources and are always welcome to visit our land to study our culture. Why should an exhibition in France benefit Bangladesh, especially an exhibition where the priceless treasures of our country have been selected without involving Bangladeshi experts, where the cataloguing is inaccurate and unprofessional, where the insurance is laughable? Such an exhibition may benefit the French, but how it will benefit Bangladesh is not conceivable. We may have been able to consider the tangible benefits if the French government had agreed to send Bangladesh an exchange exhibition of its own priceless treasures. As there is no mention of any such exchange exhibition, the vague 'benefits' only succeeds in baffling us. It makes us very curious as to why the French Government is so keen on the exhibition when we have learnt from reliable sources that the Expert Committee constituted by the Ministry of Cultural Affairs of Bangladesh has noted various points of serious concern regarding it. This has made the exhibition considerably controversial and much debated. Firstly, the citizens of Bangladesh were completely in the dark while the French and Bangladeshi governments were planning, organizing and implementing various stages of activities relating to the exhibition for nearly past four years. The people whose patrimony is to be transported to a foreign country were not informed of this impending fact. There was no media coverage, which would ensure the transparency of an event of such immense cultural magnitude. Would the Monalisa leave the Louvre without the people of France knowing of it? Gradually, with constant prodding and litigation from citizens from various levels of society it came to light that there are gaping holes in the contract that has been signed between the two nations. Perhaps most horrifying and barbaric is the fact that even the exact number of artifacts packed to leave for France is unknown while some pieces lack identification, they do not have the counter signature of the concerned authorities or a listing of the museum accession numbers in the contract. The visual documentation is faulty and incomplete. The identification and documentation of the objects are obscure, inadequate and, in some cases, absent. The list of items have been wavering between 168 to 189 which may have been acceptable for a consignment of eggs or apples (though that too is questionable!) but for a priceless collection of artifacts this is unheard of. For example, the total number of coins is stated, but no details supplied as to their dating, material and description. The two invaluable Pala palm leaf manuscripts which are awaiting transport are so fragile that the number of pages cannot be counted. In view of the enormous value of these items, it looks like sheer lunacy to subject them to travel. Let it suffice to say that even a single sheet is enough to represent the refined achievement of that period. More horrors were revealed when it came to be known that the Musee Guimet was given permission to restore the artifacts prior to the exhibition in the Guimet laboratory. These artifacts were mostly taken from display cases so the need for restoration does not seem to be relevant and the ones that need restoration should not travel at all. It is learnt that the Expert Committee is of the opinion that they should not be allowed to be restored after they leave the territory of Bangladesh because the contract is flawed by bad documentation and a very low insurance value. Who will know if pages of the Prajnaparamita manuscript or a Maurya coin is missing if we do not know what and how many is going in the first place? What if some of them are missing when and if they are returned? What if they are damaged in transport or the transport destroyed? The "what ifs" are cause for deep anxiety for all concerned citizens of Bangladesh. What is also causing more dismay is the rather paternal and colonial psyche expressed by the French when they repeatedly remind Bangladeshis about the 'cultural benefits' to Bangladesh. Are the Bangladeshis less able to understand and judge what is good for themselves than the French? Do we need the patronizing attitude of the French who pretend to know better what is good for us? Bangladesh has a glowing history. It has not colonized any nation. Imperialism is not part of its past. It has always assimilated and embraced the cultural influences that have entered from the outside world. It has only resorted to violence when faced with oppression and exploitation. It has stood up against the colonial power of the British, the Language Movement took place when its culture was challenged and the Liberation War against Pakistan was again a fight against oppression and colonialism. If anything, Bangladesh has a wonderful cultural image, which can in no way be bettered by any exhibition anywhere in the world. If the French government is bent on wresting our heritage from us by sheer force, let it be known that it will prove once more that history repeats itself and morals and ethics, law and justice plays into the hands of those who possess power. The French government is going against all codes of ethical conduct when they disregard our opinions and the laws of our land. We, the people of Bangladesh protest and will protest against this outrage and misuse of power. We want proper documentation, we want the due involvement of the professionals of our country and we want the just insurance value of our artifacts. Let it also be clear that the artifacts in question are the creation of the cumulative genius of our ancestors, creations inspired by the spirit and soul of our people, not the whim of nature, as are the mineral or natural resources of our country. We, the people of Bangladesh, demand respect and justice for our cultural heritage and we will not rest or hold our peace in the face of force. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 00:11:30 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:41:30 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Musee Guimet & The Candy Man Message-ID: Shahidul Alam's report on today's Bangladesh government press conference to address Musee Guimet protesters concern is below and also linked here: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ Also, courtesy of Shahidul, I have updated the documentation examples Lack of documentation a) set of coins catalogued as "coins", with no specifics b) inconsistent numbers ("50 silver coins, and 8 gold coins" at Dec 3 Bangladesh government press conference, "50 punchmarked coins" in one set of court records, "gold and silver coins" in another record, "93 punch marked coins" in the French inventory) b) missing accession numbers (no accession number for large and extremely rare bronze statue the Vajrasattva, insured at 200,000 Euro) c) mismatch between number of pieces documented by the French photographer who catalogued the show, the number given in French embassy contract, and the number in Embassy's press release d) incomplete descriptions, missing descriptions e) insurance value of 4 million Euros, for a collection that dates back to 4th century BC. An international archaeological expert has since called this appraisal "financial fraud". f) insurance value of 4 million Euro as per French press release of 25th September, 2.6 million Euro as per Dec 3 Bangladesh government press conference g) no response to protesters demand for name of artefact packer ##################### The Candy Man Shahidul Alam He was charming, witty, and took blame upon himself. Adviser Ayub Quadri, was the Minister of Education, Minister of Primary and Mass Education and Minister of Cultural Affairs, Government of the People's Republic of Bangladesh. He was the perfect guy to rely upon for damage control. The public school background showed, as did the many years as a top bureaucrat. He had been a member of the elite Civil Service of Pakistan (CSP). An old boys network that still holds clout in the subcontinent. The Press Information Department (PID) auditorium on the 3rd floor of Building 9, in the Bangladesh Secretariat was packed. Unlike many other Bangladeshi events it started on time. Squeezing through the footpaths, crossing fences, lifting my bicycle over rickshaws stuck in traffic, I had panted my way to the secretariat. The police at gate 2 had been too perplexed by a bicycle going through the gate to even stop me for papers. I arrived just as the first question was raised. It was a packed hall, and while I thought I would stay at the back, I realised that I needed to get up there to stand any chance of getting a question in. I sat on the floor in between the video tripods. The journalists had done their homework. And while there were a few questions that were repetitive, by and large, they knew what they wanted. In response to a question about the alleged corruption charges against one of the government officials involved in the transaction, the adviser joked. "Well I am the person in overall charge. The police don't seem to be after me for corruption." Pretty answer. Pity it didn't answer the question. The large table with the adviser in the middle was imposing. The Secretary of Culture on the left and another officer on the right played a largely ornamental role. So did the entire row of officials in the back. They did however lean forward to whisper in the adviser's ear from time to time. The question came up of the alleged transportation of the bronze casket in 1959 to France, which Mr. Zakaria, the ex Secretary of Culture had mentioned in a press conference on the 1st December. The adviser let the question slip, saying he'd heard of such accusations and was looking into it. A member of the back row broke ranks and retorted, "There is no such record." Mr. Zakaria, also an ex director of the department of archaeology, had mentioned a 49 year fight to get back this prized possession, without success. A journalist mentioned the case of the 30 paintings of Mohammad Younus. They had been sent to Yugoslavia, on a government to government exchange. None had ever come back. Quadri again said he didn't know. "Don't know" was quite a common response to questions. Candid perhaps, but not particularly useful. In answer to the questions about the irregularities regarding the loan inventory, the adviser did provide figures, but no documents he could back them up with. Questions from the floor pointed to the disjoint between the figures he quoted and the ones given in the government documents submitted to the court. That they didn't correspond to the inventory produced by the French themselves. He promised to provide updated documents this very evening. Tomorrow morning at the latest. Why the government had provided documents to the court which did not tally with the shipment, was a question that never got asked, and was certainly not clarified. Neither was the mystery regarding calling a press conference, but not having these documents at hand ever solved by the guests. "I have full confidence that the items will come back." He said, taking the weight of the world on his shoulders. As to why Bangladeshis should have confidence in him, was one that was never clarified. "The company that had packed the crates have been doing so for 300 years," he mentioned. The doubters have been asking for the packers to be named ever since the beginning, but have not been given an answer. Those who had thought the press conference would enlighten them were disappointed. Since only government members of the committee were present, there was no one to question the claim that everything had done to please the committee. That the committee had been fully satisfied with the proceedings. The fact that the official letter by the committee, in the hands of the press, said something entirely different was a mere technicality. The problem was the inconsistencies. We still don't know exactly how many items are being sent. Neither do we know exactly what is being sent. The few specifics the advisor provided, that there were "50 silver coins, and 8 gold coins," might have helped in purchasing supplies for an Everest expedition, but didn't help much in evaluating either the value, or the specifics of a museum item. Especially when the court record states "50 punchmarked coins" in one entry and an unspecified number of "gold and silver coins" in another. Assuming the number of silver coins in the latter entry is non-zero, and that the punchmarked coins are all silver, we still have a problem. The French inventory specifies "93 punch marked coins." Are the "gold and silver coins" non-punchmarked? Do they add up to the "8 gold coins" the adviser was referring to? 50 + non-zero number = 50 and 50 + 8 = 93 in Ayub Quadri's arithmetic. There are bigger issues. He generally accepted that the insurance value was low, but claimed that it was an academic issue in the case of priceless items. Especially since he was confident that they were all coming back. However the French press release, issued on the 25th September 2007, stated that the insurance value was 4 million euro. The adviser today clearly stated 2.6 million euro. So who are we to believe? We are after all talking of the most prized possessions of a nation. Consistent statements help remove doubt. The adviser's "confidence" might work on a poker table, but does little to put a worried population at ease. He brushed off the accusation about whisking off the items in a hurry, or that there was any question of impropriety or stealth in terms of going against court directives. When asked why such an important event, which was covered by all major independent media, was completely unreported on state television, he smiled. The gentleman on the right did speak up this time. He pointed out that the question was "irrelevant." Other questions remain. In the documents presented to the court by the government, even one of the most valued items, the large (and extremely rare) bronze statue the Vajrasattva does include an insurance value (not always the case) of 200,000 euro. The item does not have an accession number. Quadri was unruffled throughout, never losing cool. Always extremely pleasant. His only admission to some concern was in answer to a question about when the items would come back. He said in no uncertain terms, "April." He added, "Until then, I will stay worried, and looking at the mood in the room, I can tell that you too will not rest." As a child, we would watch the candy floss man take a tiny spoonful of sugar, a dollop of colouring and would watch with amazement as the machine spun out a pink web, which he would twirl around a stick. One portion was only dui poisha (two paisa). A figure which we could realistically save up. The large pink fluff, folded on contact, and melted in the mouth, but did give a sense of attainment. We called it hawai mithai, sweet made of air. This candy floss press conference too, had little substance but plenty of form. Whether the media kids will feel they got value for their dui poisha is something we'll see in tomorrow's headlines. ——— Previous governments have killed farmers when they demanded fertilisers and seeds. Villagers have been killed when they had the audacity to demand electricity, resist open pit mining. Yesterday 14 cyclone affected people were detained for trying to present a memorandum in protest of irregularities in relief efforts. We wonder what demands for saving our heritage will bring. From mrsg at vsnl.com Tue Dec 4 00:37:09 2007 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:07:09 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] 5th posting for SARAI fellowship project Heritage Ponds of kolkata Message-ID: <006501c835df$997219b0$0201a8c0@MRAY> 5th Posting: for SARAI fellowship project Heritage Ponds of kolkata We are now almost at the end of our journey to search the heritage ponds of Kolkata. The journey as we mentioned before was through the literatures, journals, memoirs, conversation with people and then simply walking through the streets of the city. The journey was not pleasant always, as you stand in front of a pond with a history of three hundred years, you find a dirty pool where reflection of the sky is censored by the weeds and floating plastics. But they are there. People are using them, bathing, washing, fishing, and spending times around them. They are history in continuation. Ponds (pukur) are there inside the heart of Kolkata. And our walk took us to so many land areas all named after ponds(pukurs). So you walk on the road called Ahiripukur. The 'pukur', the waterbody is long gone but it has stamped its marks on the land. So you roam in the lanes of Manoharpukur without seeing any waterfowl. In Kolkata you have the places named Bosepukur, Thakurpukur, Paddapukur, Talpukur, Keorapukur, Hanspukur, Shyampukur, Muraripukur, Jorapukur, Jhamapukur, Beniapukur and more. A recent road directory of Kolkata Municipal Corporation listed 61 roads in Kolkata named after the waterbodies. Apart from being called a pukur, they can be variously called 'Jheel', 'Jala', and 'Dighi'. There are two Jheel Roads, one in the southern fringe of the city at Jadavpur, the other at the northern end at Kashipur and also Motijhil Road. There are roads named 'Seven Tanks Lane', 'Karbala Tank Lane', Tiljala Road, Basak Dighi Lane etc. But the authorities running the city do not have any care for such evidence of a contemporary history, for them, these old heritage ponds are merely dirty waterbodies. So they go on changing the names with impunity. Sometimes, from pukurs to some local personalities, the local history is wiped in the process and dumped in some reference book. Till now there has been 29 changes in the names of these roads, changes that have come to our notice. Basak Dighi Lane is now Kedarnath Banerjee Lane or Beniapukur Road is now Ramnath Pal Road. With time, Kokata is losing the ponds as well as their role as markers of the surrounding lands. The report will contain the detailed names and lists of all these roads. Our attempts in documenting these heritage ponds have been multifold. First, after the site visit, the pictures of these ponds have been taken. The salient features of the ponds have been recorded like the temples or some memorials etc by their side. A route map for the waterbody has been prepared so that anyone willing to visit the site can reach the spot easily. Also it is being attempted to take satellite photograph of each pond from the Google's map along with the latitude-longitude of the site. With each pond there will be a history sheet to record its heritage status. Also the present status of the ponds would also be recorded. All these records have been noted with proper references. We have till today listed 43 ponds which can be considered as the heritage ponds. A brief introduction of some of those would give an idea about the claim to heritage of these waterbodies. The story of the heritage ponds of Kolkata can start with those waterbodies which were excavated before any idea of Kolkata was ever thought of. That list should start with 'Sen Dighi'. This large waterbody is situated at the extreme southeast margin of the city. This is the oldest waterbody though the exact age of it remains to be researched. The title 'Sen' comes from the Sen dynasty of Bengal which ruled the region through the 11th and 12th century. The Sens are considered last Hindu rulers of Bengal after which the region was conquered by the Muslim invaders. The village where the waterbody is situated is called Boral which is also a very old village of south Bengal. There is the famous Tripur Sundari temple close to the waterbody. This temple is considered as one of the 'peetha' and as holy as renowned Kalighat temple in Kolkata. During recent excavations for renovations and additional construction of the temple, many old artefacts of Maurya period to Sen period have been recovered. Some of these articles are kept at Asutosh Museum in Kolkata and some at the local museum within the temple complex. Hindu temples generally have waterbodies adjacent to them to fulfill different religious rituals and ritual bathing etc. So this waterbody is also linked with the history of this temple considered to be established during Sen period. The next old waterbody which also exists for several hundred years is "Ray Dighi". It is located at the southwest margin of the city at he place called Sarsuna. Sarsuna area was once a part of a developed region ruled by the 'Roy' rulers. Raja Prapaditya Roy, one of the famous Twelve Chieftains (Baro Bhuiya) of Bengal who fought against mighty Mughal emperor Akbar to ensure local independence, came from this family. Pratapaditya ultimately was defeated by the Mughal army and died in 1598 in captivity of Mughals. His father Bikramaditya Roy and uncle Basanta Roy were the rulers of this region. Basanta Roy set up his headquarters at Sarsuna and named it Raygarh. He excavated the large waterbody known as 'Roy Dighi'. This nearly 500-year-old waterbody still exists though now reduced to a much smaller size. The waterbody at Tollygunge in southern Kolkata called "Pagla Pirer Pukur" (waterbody of the Eccentric Muslim Saint) is also more than 350 years old. The 'mazar' of Hazarat Muksud Gazi lies at one corner of the pond. The sufi saint was known as 'Pagla Pir' who died in the year of 1690. The waterbody is mired in many myths, even the folk lore says it was created by the wish of the Pir. The water of this pond was sacred to all and no local festivals, marriage would be complete without the use of this holy water. Same year when the Pir died, the English merchant Job Charnolk set up his small office near today's Binoy-Badal-Dinesh Bag by the side of another waterbody named 'Lal Dighi', literally means 'Red Lake'. The lake and its surroundings was later named as Dalhousie Square and now known as Binoy-Badal-Dinesh Bag. This waterbody was the property of the family of Sabarna Roy Chowdhury, the owner of the village of Kalikata, Sutanuti and Govindapur. These three villages were taken on lease on 1698 by Job Charnok's son-in-law in 1698 which is considered as the beginning of the making of the city of Calcutta, now Kolkata. This 'Lal Dighi' still retains its prime position as the central place of the city. These are the waterbodies which records the history of the new city in building. 'Lal Dighi' has seen the battle between Siraj-ud-Daullah in 1756 when the local king drove away the British from Kalikata. A year later, after the battle of Plassey (Palashi), the British returned triumphantly to start the building of this new city. Mohit Ray From alice at tank.tv Tue Dec 4 02:36:03 2007 From: alice at tank.tv (Alice O'Reilly) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:06:03 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] www.tank.tv : Flashback : Roxy Bar and Screen : 05.12.07 : 8pm Message-ID: <442eb4460712030344m1ffe37a2yf87a8267fcc3f4e8@mail.gmail.com> tank.tv Flashback Roxy Bar and Screen 5th December 2007, 8pm. Admission free. tank.tv will present it's best of 2007 in the first of their bi-monthly screenings at the Roxy Bar and Screen. This look over the year's activities will take in film and video work from 20 artists including John Smith, Ryan Gander, Susanne Burner, John Wood & Paul Harrison and many more. Please join us for this end of year event at one of London's most esteemed screening venues. Roxy Bar and Screen 128 - 132 Borough High St London SE1 1LB www.tank.tv www.roxybarandscreen.com tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - Alice O'Reilly tank.tv 5th floor 49-50 Great Marlborough street London W1F 7JR alice at tank.tv T +44 (0)207434 0110 F +44 (0)207434 9232 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: Love & Hate 15th October – 15th November 2007 Fresh Moves - Out now! Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Tue Dec 4 02:36:15 2007 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (artNET) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:06:15 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_7_Ways_to_Say_In?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ternet_With_Netart?= Message-ID: <20071203102320.9FCAA21E.A385269B@192.168.0.3> JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org released recently the netart feature "Seven Ways To Say Internet with Net Art" - curated by Elena Giulia Rossi http://www.javamuseum.org/2007/index1.html including works by Juliet Davis Reinhald Drouhin Free Soil (Amy Franceschini, Myriel Milicevic, Nis Rømer) Molleindustria Santiago Ortiz C.J.Yeh Lorenzo Pizzanelli ------------------------------------------- Curatorial statement ------------------------------------------- Seven Ways To Say Internet with Net Art Elena Giulia Rossi Since its inception, net art has always been referring to its own medium. The seven works selected, created in different times, address different facets of the nature of Internet, from the social perception of the self and of the body in relation to technology, to the potential impact that this medium can have on society, mostly when art is concerned. The relationship between nature art and representation of the self with the flow of information is synthesized in the hybrid portrait of "Deus Fleurs" by the French artist Reynald Drouhin. Generative processes as art are the core of C.J. Yeh's "Equal" where personal data generate modernist-like paintings. Sound and space in relation to dynamics and energy are the subject of Santiago Ortiz's "Sound and Energy" where Internet is treated as a canvas for dynamic and interactive sketches. Molleindustria's works, a collective engaged in the creation of original games aimed to rise political concerns are excellent examples of how games, and Internet as a vehicle to foster them, can ease issues otherwise difficult to face. "Mc Donald's Videogame" is a courageous critique of the McDonald's brand and of the functioning of its corporation, at the origin of remarkable ecological damages. It is through the game that Juliet Davis explores in "Pieces of Herself" feminine embodiment and its relation to real and virtual space. A game is also involved in Iconoclast Game by Lorenzo Pizzanelli: through irony and play the author gives a critical view of the power of images and of the museums that make them sacred. F.R.U.I.T., engaged in the shaping of an on-line community to encourage cultivation within urban areas, is a project where the network activity is art. It makes clear that net art is "action" and it is closer to performing than any other art practice. ------------------------------------- About the curator Elena Giulia Rossi works and lives in Rome/Italy as an independent curator. Since 2002, she has been collaborating with MAXXI - National Museum of 21st Century Art Rome/Italy, where she is curating since 2005 a section dedicated to net/web art. She regularly writes for the on-line edition of the Italian newspaper "L'Unità". Detailed bio on http://and.nmartproject.net/?p=1394 Detailed artists biographies Juliet Davis (USA) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1401 Reinhald Drouhin (France) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1402 Free Soil (Amy Franceschini, Myriel Milicevic, Nis Rømer) http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1403 Molleindustria (Italy) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1404 Santiago Ortiz (Colombia) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1405 C.J.Yeh (Taiwan) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1406 Lorenzo Pizzanelli (Italy) - http://www.nmartproject.net/artists/?p=1407 ------------------------------------- The netart feature - "Seven Ways To Say Internet with Net Art" - http://www.javamuseum.org/2007/index1.html represents also the JavaMuseum contribution to NewMediaFest2007 http://2007.newmediafest.org http://www.newmediafest.org/blog/ and can be accessed via the festival interface. -------------------------------------- JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org is a corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net info (at) javamuseum.org -------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 02:57:37 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:27:37 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Asterix & The Big Fight (Musee Guimet cont.) Message-ID: Apologies for inundating the list, the Guimet debate grows by hour. Most of the posts about Guimet have been from one side. Finally, an "Anonymous" supporter of the exhibition has written from the "other side": Astrerix & The Big Fight http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/03/guimet-the-other-side/ [I responded to Anon in comment # 2] The original 'Tintin in Bengal' post has been updated with feedback/critique from bloggers, in these sections: 2. Precedent for Art Anxiety 3. Guimet as a Signifier 4. The Robbery Jitters http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ From vivek at sarai.net Tue Dec 4 08:27:04 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 02:57:04 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] abstracts and general audience highlights for Wednesday 5 December Message-ID: <4754C1F1.8090907@sarai.net> *Highlights and Abstracts for tomorow's session -- Wednesday, 5 December* Hi all-- Again, comments or posts (critical or otherwise) on today's (Tuesday's) sessions would be very welcome! Highlights for a more general audience, tomorrow: "Creeper" by Ram Ganesh Kamatham (7.00 pm), and a panel on: the Dalit Panthers, caste and gender violence in Kerala and revisiting the long term effects of the 1992 Mumbai riots (11.45 pm). 7.00 – 8.15 “Creeper”, a play written and directed by Ram Ganesh Kamatham, recasting the Vikram and Vetal myth in a contemporary urban setting. Featuring Mallika Prasad and Abhishek Majumdar. (Running time: 1 hour fifteen minutes) "Shit!" "What?" "Some kid fell off an escalator in Garuda mall and died." "It's ok, it's ok. As long as it's not someone we know. Just someone else's kid." "How can they let this happen? People must be allowed to go shopping in peace." About the play This is a story about two people in the city. She is the expert narrator, he is a mischievous sutradhar. These two story-tellers have amazing stories to share. Problem is they don't agree on how to tell the story! Creeper is a modern re-imagination of the tale of Vikram and Vetal. The play slams this mythos into a contemporary urban setting – creating a shadowy world that is immediately recognizable, yet bizarre and entertaining. “Creeper” was written and produced as part of Ram Ganesh Kamatham’s project on Vikram and Vetal during the 2007 Sarai-CSDS Independent Fellowship. Kamatham, one of Bangalore’s best known up-and-coming directors (ramganeshk @gmail.com) has created work for stage, film, radio, and video games. The project is blogged at: http://addledbraindump.blogspot.com/ * 11.45 – 1.15 In the Midst of Conflict I: Looking Back and Looking Ahead Chair: Ravi Sundaram [Ravi Sundaram (ravis @sarai.net) is a Fellow of the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies. He is one of the initiators of Sarai and is one of the editors of the Sarai Reader series. He coordinates the media city research project. He has written extensively on contemporary intersection of technology, media and urban experience.] Arvind Kumar Caste Violence in Urban Maharashtra: A study of the 1974 Worli Riots in Mumbai and the Dalit Panthers Movement The proposed study intends to analyse the Worli riots of 1974 when there was a violent clash between the Shiv Sena and the Dalit Panthers. In this riot the main target of communal wrath were dalits who opted out of the oppressive caste-hindu religion and converted to Neo-Buddhism. The riots and the agitation brought to the surface dissensions within the Dalit Panther movement, which ultimately led to its split in 1974. There are enough sources available on Dalit Panther movement. The consciousness of revolt was also expressed in an outburst of poetry by new writers like Namdev Dhasal, Daya Powar, J V Pawar, Waman Nimbalkar, Arun Kamble and many others. The present study will locate the Worli riots in a historical perspective and will try and address new questions as and when they arise through the course of the study. Arvind Kumar (arvind.access @gmail.com) is pursuing a PhD in American Studies at the School of International Studies, JNU on the topic 'Discrimination and Resistance - A Comparative Study of Black Movements in the U.S and Dalit Movements in India'. P. Jenny and C. Christy Chitralekha’s Burning Autorickshaw: Caste, Class and Gender in the Urban Space of Keralam This proposal is about a Dalit woman married to a Backward Caste man and their struggle to move above caste and gender structures in a moffusil town in Keralam. The story begins when the couple buys an autorickshaw in Chithra Lekha's name and she decides to drive it herself. However, Chithra Lekha's caste and gender identity makes it impossible for her to step into the public sphere of this liberated moffusil town. The leftist trade union (mainly consisting of a dominant BC caste) already angered by her caste violation of marrying above her caste, acts against her by delaying her membership card and continues to harass her till at last her autorickshaw is burned to ashes. In this project we collect and document each and every aspect of this (true) incident by conducting thorough interviews with all the people concerned. Along with this we would also like to produce a theoretical paper which tries to understand how caste, class, gender relations constitute the urban space in Keralam. Here we would examine: > how the dominant Marxist party works to reproduce the caste and gender structure in Keralam; > the important tools of sexual morality which are used against the progress of Dalit and "other" women; > the intricacies of the OBC-Dalit relationship and the reasons that triggers violence between them; > the role of subaltern masculinities in the entire incident. P. Jenny (jenny.chithra @gmail.com) is an independent researcher, writer and columnist. She holds a PhD on Malayalam Cinema, from the Central Institute of English and Foreign Languages, Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh. C. Christy (christy.carmel @gmail.com) is at present doing her PhD in Media and Commmunications from the Central University of Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh. Meena Menon Recovering Lost Histories: Riot Victims, the Communal Polarisation of Mumbai and Its Impact on People and Perceptions about Communities Is Mumbai the unbreakable city it is touted to be? As a city, it has changed in obvious and not so obvious ways since the post Babri Masjid demolition riots of December 1992 and January 1993. The main focus of the research will be the families of the riot victims and their lives after more than a decade since the violence. The research is based on interviews first hand visits to places and talking to as wide a spectrum of people as possible— including researchers, journalists, riot affected families, government, police officials, apart from political parties. At the end of the research I would like to use the material for a book. Meena Menon (meenamenon @gmail.com) is currently a special correspondent with The Hindu. She has been a journalist for 22 years and has worked with The Times of India, Mid-day and the United of News of India. ************************************************************************************************** Wed 5 December Venue: LTG Auditorium, Mandi House 10.00 am – 11.30 Distant Communities Chair: Ravikant [Ravikant (ravikant @sarai.net) taught and researched history in Delhi University for a number of years. He currently conceptualises and edits content in Hindi at Sarai. He is the co-editor of Deewan-e-Sarai (the Hindi Reader series). He also writes for Hindi magazines and newspapers on the issues of media, language, computing and translation.] Surya Prakash Upadhyay Guru on the Air: Televised Hinduism in Contemporary India The project proposes to look at the instrumentality of audio-visual media in the construction and maintenance of the religio-spiritual world in contemporary Hinduism and in the mobilization of people towards “tele-gurus”. The project attempts to look into a recent and interesting addition in the religious sphere, especially in present-day Hinduism, catered to the people by cable television in the urban spaces. It looks at a new-age guru named Asharam Bapu, and at the phenomenon of media playing a vital part in the growth of his organization, in increasing the numbers of followers and devotees, and in propagation as well as spread of religiosity and spirituality among people. There are several gurus and also several devotional channels that are highly influential in urban spaces, transmitting their programmes through television and providing an opportunity for people to listen and watch their favorite guru. This development in the media sector has filled the gap of physical absence of the guru and multiplied the communication between him and his followers. The aim of the research is to give a ‘thick description’ of the whole phenomenon. Surya Prakash Upadhyay (surya_rajan21 @yahoo.com) is a Research Scholar in the Dept of Humanities and Social Sciences, Indian Institute of Technology Bombay. Neelima Chauhan Blogit Hindi Jati ka Linkit Man: Blogon mein Hindi Hypertext ka Adhayayan (The World of Hindi Blogs) This research attempts to do an online study of Hindi hyper text on Hindi blogs. It will be an attempt to make a critical appreciation of Language and style of hypertextual prose as it flows through the terminals of Hindi Bloggers. It will be an online study which will take in account the existing blogs, Hindi Networks, Blog Archives, Comments etc. Narratives from the Hindi Online community will be collected. The objective is to identify the construction of the grand narrative of 'Hindi Jati' (Hindi nationality) as described in Hindi literary criticism, especially that by Ram Vilas Sharma. This construction of Hindi Jati where geographical space seemingly becomes meaningless (or less important, at least) will be explored. As the research will be an online study, its progress will be available to all interested in real time. Neelima Chauhan (neelimasayshi @gmail.com)'s doctoral and postdoctoral work is in post-colonial Hindi prose. She teaches Hindi at Delhi University's Zakir Husain Post Graduate Evening College. The blog for this project can be found at: http://linkitmann.blogspot.com/ Raman Jit Singh Chima The Regulation of the Internet by the Indian State Though considerable work has been done on exploring how the Internet is capable of being regulated, not much has been done to chart out the exact shape of such regulation of expression on the Internet in India. More importantly, the exact manner in which the Indian State has regulated the Internet through all the structures and mechanisms at its disposal has not been studied, which is important since this affects the flow of speech and expression. In order to attempt to chart out the empirical aspects of Internet regulation in India and its linkages with normative frameworks, the focus of this project is thus on the following two goals: firstly, to track out and study the manner in which the Indian State regulates the Internet through legal structures and connected mechanism (both through formal legal rules as well as through informal measure such as executive action); and secondly, to analyze how this regulatory framework relates to the constitutional safeguards with respect to the limitations on state action viz. free speech and expression and whether it respects these constraints. Raman Chima (ramanchima @gmail.com) is pursuing the B.A.LL.B. (Hons) program at the National Law School of India University, Bangalore and is currently in the 3rd year of this course. The blog for this project can be found at: http://stateoftheweb.blogspot.com/ 11.45 – 1.15 In the Midst of Conflict I: Looking Back and Looking Ahead 11.00 – 11.30 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Listen, Little Man-- by Madhavi Tangella; [See also discussion with Shivam Vij on Friday’s programme below.] Listen Little Man is a 28-minute documentary film study of ragging in India. Madhavi Tangella (manzilechar @yahoo.com) worked on Sagar Cinema, a “poor man’s multiplex” for her Sarai Independent Fellowship. She is currently a film student at SRFTI, Kolkata. 1.30 – 3.00 In the Midst of Conflict II: Reading Between the Column Inches Chair: Sanjay Sharma [Sanjay Sharma (sanjaykusharma @yahoo.co.in) is a historian and radio broadcaster. He teaches History at Zakir Hussain College, Delhi University and is co-editor of Sarai-CSDS’s Hindi reader series, Deewan-e-Sarai.] Shiju Sam Varughese The Public Sphere as a Site of Knowledge Production: Science in the Malayalam Press This study attempts to understand the functioning of the public sphere, constituted through the regional press in Keralam, as a site of knowledge production in the context of scientific controversies. This will be studied by taking a specific scientific controversy as case. In the wake of an earthquake on 12th December 2000, several unusual geophysical incidents including well collapses, coloured rains and micro tremors began appearing in Keralam. These phenomena have been reported in the regional press from every nook and cranny of the region and the deliberations over it continued for almost one year in the regional press, involving a wide range of issues and actors. This case will be studied in detail based on content analysis of five major Malayalam newspapers (Malayala Manorama, Mathrubhumi, Deshabhimani, Madhyamam, and Keralam Kaumudi) as well as interviews with key actors involved in the controversy. This is to demonstrate how the public sphere acts as a site of knowledge production in the context of a scientific controversy. Shiju Sam Varughese (shijusam @gmail.com)is a doctoral candidate at the Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi. His research is on the public understanding of science in Keralam. Alok Puranik Bazaar Reporting in Hindi Newspapers In the days when the Sensex is a mandatory presence in news reporting, Alok Puranik tried to study reportage of the market in Hindi newspapers down the years. When did these market reports originate, how did its terminology evolve, what was its relationship with the rest of the news and how has it changed over the years? He starts his study in 1947 and concentrates on two dailies published from Delhi. Alok Puranik (puranika @gmail.com) is an economist, columnist, satirist, and blogger who teaches at Agrasen College, Delhi University. His books include Neki kar Akhbar mein Daal and Arthik Patrakarita. Shubhra Nagalia The Representation of Communal Conflicts in Hindi Media: A Case study of the 2005 Mau Riots The research investigates the reportage of Mau riots by electronic and print media. While there has been extensive documentation and studies on the ‘communalisation’ of media and its role in riot situations, the small town manifestation of this phenomenon in Mau and its resultant repercussions on hegemonic discourses and construction of religious identity will be one of the areas of our study. The images, slogans, language and presentation of Mau riots through the lens of Hindi media; linkages between political influences, capital and communities that shapes the contours of media in general and local news in particular will also be subjects of our research. The paper also contains detailed interview excerpts. Shubhra Nagalia (shubhra_n71 @yahoo.com) is doing her Ph.D in the School of International Studies, JNU. She has taught Women’s Studies at Mahatma Gandhi University, Wardha. She is a longtime activist and a member of All India Progressive Womens’ Association. 3.15—4.45 Other Traditions Chair: Priya Sen [Priya Sen is a trained filmmaker who has taught media production in the US and India. She works with sound, multimedia and radio content at the Cybermohalla Labs. She is part of the editorial collective of the broadsheet series Sarai.txt.] Priya Babu Traditions of the Aravani (Transgender) Community in Tamilnadu Aravanis, called Hijrahs in north India, have existed in Tamilnadu for several centuries. Though born biologically as males, they closely identify themselves as girl/woman. By doing so, they undergo a lot of suffering due to the great psychological pressure exerted by different social forces that prevail. Because of lack of understanding among the general public and the society, those who do not behave like boys are often discrimination and even face violence from their own family members. Hence they are forced to leave their family members and later join the Aravani community, which accepts them and provides support. This research will study and document the Tamilnadu Aravani community’s varied traditions. It will try to understand different sects and their hierarchies with a focus on interrelations during public celebrations and private gatherings. In the process, the project will also document their worshipping places, their relation with the god Aravan and the story of how they became linked with mainstream society. Priya Babu (priyababu_sudar @yahoo.co.in) is a Chennai-based researcher, journalist and coordinator of the theatre group, ‘Kannadi Kalai Kuzhu’. She is herself a member of the Aravani community. Mithun Narayan Bose Tracing Life from the Stroke: Documenting the Rickshaw-Painting of Kolkata Streets The paintings behind the rickshaws of the city of Calcutta are a unique example of an unnoticed urban folk-art, and the detailed study of the paintings can be an alternative way to know about the life of these people. As most of the Calcutta rickshaw-pullers have migrated to the city from other places, the paintings’ style reflect the form/ style of art available at the rickshaw-puller’s place of origin. A unique heterogeneity is also observed due to its confluence with the urban style. Thematically, the rickshaw paintings of Calcutta-streets are of different types (e.g. religious, landscape, portrait of near and dear ones, film star etc.). In this project, the painting behind the rickshaws is documented with the help of both video recording and photography. Mithun Narayan Bose (bangali_mnb @yahoo.com) is a language teacher at a Kolkata school. He contributes regularly to several Kolkata little magazines, and his interests include poetry, folklore, cultural anthropology, art and art criticism. Deepak Kadyan Popular Musical Traditions and Configuration of Jat identity in Haryana, 1900-2000 This research seeks to examine the relationship between popular musical traditions and the forging of a jat identity in north India in general and in Haryana in particular. The processes of identity formation and self-perceived notions of community are analyzed and discerned through the prism of popular culture and as to how a 'community' viewed itself, and what its aspirations have been over a period of time. An important aspect of this study is an analysis of the sites of performance and circulation of this oral tradition. One such site is the akharas (lit. a wrestling arena, but here, it refers to a space for rehearsals and practice), influential until the mid twentieth century. Another such site available to oral tradition for circulation was the colonial army and police. The history of oral tradition is intertwined with the history of prominent performers, and major structural and performative changes, whether in terms of musical instruments, rhythms, intonation, appropriation of symbols or content— in other words, the relationship between performers and performance. Interestingly, the social composition of oral tradition in Haryana is different, as it wasn't dominated by any particular community. Deepak Kadyan can be reached at: hie.deepak at gmail.com 5.30 – 6.00 pm (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Performance Art: “This Evening Too: From Lal Ded to Abdul Ahad Zargar” by Inder Salim: Space limited to 25 persons only—first come, first serve. Inder Salim (indersalim @gmail.com), an Independent Fellow this year, is a performance artist based in Delhi. He blogs his work at: http://indersalim.livejournal.com/ 7.00 – 8.15 (Back in main auditorium) “Creeper”, a play written and directed by Ram Ganesh Kamatham, recasting the Vikram and Vetal myth in a contemporary urban setting. Featuring Mallika Prasad and Abhishek Majumdar. (Running time: 1 hour fifteen minutes) From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 11:42:38 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 06:12:38 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956 - Legal Document No 140 Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> *The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956* Legal Document No 140 *(Extract)* We, the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having solemnly resolved, in pursuance of accession of this State to India which took place on the twenty-sixth day of October, 1947, to further define the existing relationship of the State with the Union of India as an integral part thereof, and to secure to ourselves. *JUSTICE*, social, economic and political; *LIBERTY* of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among us all; *FRATERNITY*, assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity of the Nation; *IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY* This seventeenth day of November, 1956 do Hereby Adopt Enact and Give to ourselves this constitution. *PART I* *PRELIMINARY* 1. (1) this Constitution may be called the Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir. (2) This section and sections 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 158 shall come into force et once and the remaining provisions of this constitution shall come into force on the twenty-sixth day of January, 1957, which day is referred to in this Constitution as the commencement of this Constitution. 2. (I) In this Constitution, unless the context other-wise requires. (a) "Constitution of India" means the Constitu-tion of India as applicable in relation to this State. (b) "existing law" means any law, ordinance, order bye-law, rule notification; or regulation based, made or issued before the commence-ment of this Constitution by the Legislature or other competent authority or person hav-ing power to pass. make or issue such law, ordinance, order bye-law rule, notification or regulation; (c) "Part" means a part of this Constitution; (d) "Schedule" means a schedule to this Constitution; and (e) "taxation" includes the imposition of any tax or impost, whether general or local or special, and "tax" shall be construed accordingly. (2) Any reference in this Constitution to Acts or laws of the State Legislature shall be construed as in-cluding a reference to an Ordianance made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. *PART II* *THE STATE* (3) The State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the Union of India. (4) The territory of the State shall comprise all the territories which on the fifteenth day of August, 1947, were under the sovereignty or suzerainty of the Ruler of the State. (5) The executive and legislative power of the State extends to all matters except those with respect to which Parliament has power to make laws for the State under the provisions of the Constitution of India. *PART III* *PERMANENT RESIDENTS* (6) (l) Every person who is, or is deemed to be, a citizen of India under the provisions of the Constitution of India shall be a permanent resident of the State, if on the fourteenth day of May, 1954. (a) he was a State subject of class I or of class II: or (b) having lawfully acquired immovable pro-perty in the State, he has been ordinarily resident in the State for not less than ten years prior to that date. (2) Any person who, before the fourteenth day of May, 1954 was a State subject of Class I or of Class II and who, having migrated after the first day of March, 1947, to the territory -now included in Pakistan, returns to the State under a permit for resettlement in the State or for permanent return issued by or under the authority of any law made by the State Legislature shall on such return be a permanent resident of the State. (3) In this section, the expression "State subject of Class I or of Class II" shall have the same -meaning as the State Notification No I-L/84 dated the twentieth April. '1927, read with State Notification No 13/L dated the twenty- seventh June, 1932. 7. Unless the context otherwise requires, all referen-ces in any existing law to hereditary State subject or to State subject of class I or of Class II or of class III shall be construed as references to perma-nent residents of the State. 8. Nothing in foregoing provisions of this part shall derogate from the power of the State legislature to make any law defining the classes the persons who are, or shall be permanent residents of the State. 9. A Bill marking provision for any of the following matters, namely. (a) defining or altering the definition of, the classes of persons who are, or shall be, per-manent residents of the State; (b) conferring on permanent residents any special rights or privileges; (c) regulating or modifying any special rights or privileges enjoyed by permanent residents; shall be deemed to be passed by either House of the Legislature only if It is passed by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total membership of that House. 10. The permanent residents of the State shall have all the rights guaranteed to them under the Constitution of India. *PART IV* *DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF STATE POLICY* 11. In this part, unless the context otherwise requires, the State includes the Government and the Legis-lature of the State and all local or other authori-ties within the territory of the State or under the control of the Government of the State. 12. The provisions contained in this Part shall not be enforceable by any court, but the principles therein laid down are nevertheless fundamental in the governance of the State and it shall be the duty of the State to apply these principles in making laws. 13. The prime object of the State consistent with the ideals and objectives of the freedom movement envisaged in "New Kashmir" shall be the pro-motion of the welfare of the mass of the people by establishing and preserving a socialist order of society wherein all exploitation of man has been abolished and wherein justice-social, economic and political-shall inform all the institutions of natio-nal life. 14. Consistently with the objectives outlined in the foregoing section, the State shall develop in a planed manner the productive forces of the coun-try with a view to enriching the material and cul-tural life of the people and foster and protect. (a) the public sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by the State; (b) the co-operative sector where the means of production are co-operatively owned by indi-viduals or groups of individuals; and (c) the private sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by an individual or a corpora-tion employing labour, provided that the operation of this sector is not allowed to result in the concentration of wealth or of the means of production to the common detriment. 15. The State shall endeavour to organise and develop agriculture and animal husbandry by bringing to the aid of the cultivator tile benefits of modern and scientific research and techniques so as to ensure a speedy improvement in the standard of living as also the prosperity of the rural masses. 16. The State shall take steps to organise village panchayats and endow them with such powers and authority as may be necessary to enable them to function as units of self-government. 17. The State shall, in order to rehabilitate, guide and promote the renowned crafts and cottage indus-tries of the State, initiate and execute well consi-dered programmes for refining and modernising techniques and modes of production, including the employment of cheap power so that unnece-ssary drudgery and toil of the workers are elimi-nated and the artistic value of the products en-hanced, while Else fullest scope is provided for the encouragement and development of individual talent and initiative. 18. The State shall lake steps to separate the judiciary from the executive in the public-services, and shall seek to secure a judicial system which is humane, cheap, certain, objective and impartial, whereby justice shall be done and shall be seen to be done and shall further strive to ensure efficiency, im-partiality and incorruptibility of its various organs of justice, administration and public utility. 19. The State shall, within the limits of its economic capacity and development, make effective provi-sion for securing: (a) that all permanent residents, man and women equally, have the right to work, that is, the right to receive guaranteed work with pay-ment for labour in accordance with its quan-tity and quality subject to a basic minimum and maximum wage established by law; (b) that the health and strength of workers, men and women and the tender age of children are not abused and that permanent residents are not forced by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, age or strength; (c) that all workers, agricultural or otherwise have reasonable, just and humane conditions of work with full enjoyment of leisure and social and cultural opportunities, and (d) that all permanent residents have adequate maintenance in old age as well as in the event of sickness, disablement unemployment and other cases of undeserved want by providing social insurance, medical aid, hospitals, sana-toria and health resorts at State expense. 20. The State shall endeavour: (a) to secure to every permanent resident the right to free education upto the University standard; (b) to provide, within a period often years from the commencement of this constitution, com-pulsory education for all children until they complete the age of fourteen years; and (c) to ensure to all workers and employees ade-quate facilities for adult education and part -time technical, professional and vocational courses. 21. The State shall strive to secure: (a) to all children the right to happy childhood with adequate medical care and attention; and (b) to all children and youth equal opportunities in education and employment, protection against exploitation, and against moral or material abandonment. 22. The State shall endeavour to secure to all women: (a) the right to equal pay for equal work; (b) the right to maternity benefits as well as ade-quate medical care in all employments; (c) the right reasonable maintenance, extending to cases of married women who have been divorced or abandoned; (d) the right to full equality in all social, educa-tional, political and legal matters; and (e) special protection against discourtesy, defama-tion, hoolganism and other forms of miscon-duct. 23. The State shall guarantee to the socially and edu-cationally backward sections of the people special care in the promotion of their educational, mate rial and cultural interests and protection against social injustice. 24. The State shall make every effort to safeguard and promote the health of the people by advancing public hygiene and by prevention of disease through sanitation, pest and vermin control, propaganda and other measures, and by ensuring widespread, efficient and free medical services throughout the State and, with particular emphasis, in its remote and backward regions. 25. The State shall combat ignorance, superstition, fanaticism, communialism, racialism, cultural backwardness and shall seek to foster brotherhood and equality among all communities under the aegis of a secular State. *PART V* *THE EXECUTIVE* *THE SADAR-I-RIYASAT* 26. (1) The Head of the State shall be designated as the Sadar-i-Riyasat. (2) The executive power of the State shall be vested in the Sadar-i-Riyasat and shall be exercised by him either directly or through officers subordinate to him in accordance with this Constitution. (3) Nothing in this Section shall: (a) be deemed to transfer to the Sadar-i--Riyasat any functions conferred by any existing law on any other authority; or (b) prevent the State legislature from confer-ring by law functions on any authority subordinate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat. 27. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be the person who for the time being is recognised by the President as such: Provided that no person shall be so recognised unless he: (a) is a permanent resident of the state; (b) is not less than twenty-five years of age; and (c) has been elected as Sadar-i-Riyasat by a majority of the total membership of the Legislative Assembly in the manner set out in the First Schedule. 28. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office during the pleasure of the President. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may, be writing under his hand addressed to the President, resign his office. (3) Subject to the foregoing provision of this section, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office for a term of five years from the date on which he enters upon his office: Provided that he shall notwithstanding the expiration of his term, continue to hold office until his successor enters upon his offlee. 29. A person who holds or has held office as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, subject to the other provisions of this Constitution, be eligible for reselection to that office. 30. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be a member of either House of Legislature and if a member of either House be elected and recognised as Sadar-i-Riyasat, he shall be deemed to have vacated his seat in the House on the date on which he enters upon his office as Sadar-I-Riyasat. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not hold any other office of profit. (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be entitled to such emoluments, allowances and privileges as are specified in the second schedule. (4) The emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be diminished during his term of office. 31. The Sadar-i-Riyasat and every person acting as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, before entering upon his office, make and subscribe in the presence of the Chief Justice of the High Court, or in his absence, the senior-most judge of the High Court available, in an oath or affirmation in the following form that is to sayed "I, A. B., do swear in the name of God that I will faithfully discharge the functions of the Sadar-I-Riyasat of Jammu and Kashmir and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect and defend the Constitution and the law and that I will devote myself to the service and well being of the people of State." 32. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be removed from his office by the President if an address by the Legis-lative Assembly supported by a majority of not less than two-thirds of its total membership is presented to the president praying for such removal on the ground of violation of the Constitution. 33. When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by reason of his death, resignation or removal or when the Sadar-i-Riyasat is unable to discharge his functions owing to absence, illness or or any other cause, the functions of the office shall, until the assumption of office by a newly elected Sadar-i-Riyasat or the resumption of duties by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, as the case may be, dis-charged by such person as the President may on the recommendation of the Council of Ministers of the State, recognise as the acting Sadar-i-Riyasat. 34. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall have the power to grant pardons, reprieves, respites or remissions of punish-ment or to suspend, remit or commute the sentence of any person convicted of any offense against any law relating to a matter to which the executive power of the State extends. *THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS* 35. (1) There shall be a council of Ministers with the Prime Minister at the head to aid and advise the Sadar-i-Riyasat in the exercise of his functions. All functions of the Sadar-i-Riyasat except those under sections 36, 38 and 92 shall be exercised by him only on the advice of the Council of Ministers. (3) The question whether any, and if so what, advice was tendered by Ministers to the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be inquired into in any court. 36. The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and the other Ministers shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the advice of The Prime Minister. 37. (1) The Council of Ministers shall be collectively responsible to the Legislative Assembly. (2) A Minister who for any period of six conse-cutive months is not a member of either House of Legislature shall upon the expiry of that period cease to be a Minister. 38. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may on the advice of the Prime Minister appoint from amongst the members of either House of Legislature such number of Deputy Ministers as may be necessary. 39. The Ministers and the [Deputy Ministers shall hold office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. 40. Before a Minister or a Deputy Minister enters upon lids office, the Sadar-i-Riyasat or, in his absence, any person authorised by him, shall administer to the Minister or the Deputy Minister to oaths of office and of secrecy according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. 41. The salaries and allowances of Ministers and Deputy Ministers shall be such as the Legislature relay from time to time by law determine and, until so determined, shall be such as are payable respectively to the Ministers and the Deputy Ministers under the Jammu and Kashmir Minister s Salaries Act, 1956 (Act VI of 1956) the Jammu and Kashmir Minister's Travelling Allowances Rules for the time being in force, and the Jaminu and Kashmir Deputy Ministers Salaries and Allowances Act. S. 2010 (Act VIII of S.2010) *THE ADVOCATE GENERAL* 42. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall appoint a person who is qualified to be appointed a Judge of the High Court, to be Advocate General for the State. (2) It shall be the duty of the Advocate General to give advice to the Government upon such legal matters and to perform such other duties of a legal character, as may from time to time be referred or assigned to him by the Govern-ment, and to discharge the functions conferred on him by or under this Constitution or any other law for the time being in force. (3) In the performance of his duties, the Advocate General shall have the right of audience in all courts in the State. (4) The Advocate General shall hold office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and receive such remuneration as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may determine. *CONDUCT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS* 43. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall make rules for the more convenient transaction of the business of the Government of the State and for the allocation among Ministers of the said business. 44. It shall be the duty of the Prime Minister (a) to communicate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat all decisions of the council of Ministers relating to the administration of the affairs of the State and proposals for legislation; (b) to furnish such information relating to the administration of the affairs of the State and proposals for legislation as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may call for; and (c) if the Sadar-i-Riyasat so rqeuires to submit for the consideration of the Council of Ministers any matter on which a decision has been taken by a Minister but which has not been considered by the Council. 45. (1) All executive action of the Government shall be expressed to be taken in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat of the Jammu and Kashmir. (2) Orders and other instruments made and executed in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat or of the Government of Jammu and Kashmir shall be authenticated in such manner as may be specified in the rules to be made be the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and the validity of an order or instrument which is so authenticated shall not be called in question on the ground that it is not an order or instrument made or executed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat or as the case may be, by the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.** *PART VI* *THE STATE LEGISLATIVE*** *COMPOSITION OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* 46. There shall be Legislature for the State which shall consist of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and two Houses be known respectively as the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council. 47. (1) The Legislative Assembly shall consist of one hundred members chosen by direct election from territorial constituencies in the State; Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, if he is of opinion that women are not adequately represented in the Assembly nominate not more than two women to be members thereof. (2) For the purposes of sub-section (I), the State shall be divided into territorial constituencies in such a manner that the ratio between the population of each constituency and the number of seats allotted to it shall, so far as practicable, be the same throughout the State. Explanation: In this sub-section, the express-ion "Population' means the population as ascertained at the last preceding census of which the relevant figures have been published. (3) Upon the completion of each census, the number, extent and boundaries of the territor-ial constituencies shall be readjusted by such authority and in such manner as the Legislature may be law determine: Provided that such readjustment shall not affect representation in the Legislative Assemb until the disolution of the then exist-ing Assembly. 48. Notwithstanding anything contained in section 47, until the area of the State under the occuptions of Pakistan ceases to so occupied and the people residing in that area elect their representatives (a) twenty-five seats in the Legislative Assembly shall remain vacant and shall not be taken into account for reckoning the total member-ship of the Assembly; and the said area shall be excluded in delimiting the territorial Constituencies Under Section 47. 49. (I) There shall be reserved in the Lagislative Assembly for the Scheduled Castes in the State a number of seats which shall bear, as nearly as may be, the same proportion to the total number of seats in the Assembly as the popu-lation of the Scheduled Castes bears to the population of the State. Explanation: In this sub-section: (a) "population" has the same meaning as in sub-section (2) of section 47; and (b) "Scheduled Castes" means the caste, races or tribes or part of, or groups within castes, races or tribes which are for the purposes of the Constitution of India deemed to be Scheduled Casts in relation to the State under the pro-visions of article 341 of that Constitution. (2) The provisions of sub-section (1) shall cease to have effect on the expiration of a period of five years from the commencement of this Constitution: Provided that such cesser shall not affect any representation in the Legislative Assembly until the dissolution of the then existing Assembly: 50. (1) The Legislative Council shall consist of thirty six members, chosen in the manner provided in this section. (2) Eleven members shall be elected by the men hers of the Legislative Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of Kashmir and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. (3) Eleven members shall be elected by the mem-bers of the Legislative Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of Jammu and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. Provided that of the members so elected, at least one shall be a resident of Doda District and at least one shall be a resident of Poonch District. (4) One member shall be elected by each of the following electorates, namely (a) the members of municipal council, town area committees and notified area com-mittees in the Province of Kashmir; (b) the members of municipal council, town area committees, and notified area committees in the Province of Jammu; (c) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged in teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the Province of Kashmir; and (d) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged in teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the Province of Jammu. (5) Two members shall be elected by each of the following electorates, namely: (a) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the Province of Kashmir as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify; and (b) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the Province of Jammu as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. (6) Six members shall be nominated by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, not more than three of whom shall be person belonging to any of the socially or economically backward classes in the State, and the others shall be persons having special knowledge or practical experi-ence in respect of matters such as literature, science, art, co-operative movement and social service. (7) Elections under sub-section (2) and (3) shall be held in accordance with the system of pro-portional representation by means of the single transferable vote. *GENERAL PROVISIONS* 51. A person shall not be qualified to be chosen to fill a seat in the Legislature unless he: (a) is a permanent resident of the State; (b) is, in the case of a seat in the Legislative Assembly, not less than twenty-five years of age, and in the case of a seat in the Legisla-tive Council, not less than thirty years of age; and (c) possesses such other qualifications as may be prescribed in that behalf by or under any law made by Legislature. 52. (1) The Legislative Assembly, unless sooner dis-solved, shall continue for five years from the date appointed for its first meeting and not longer, and the expiration of the said period of five years shall operate as a dissolution of the Assembly; Provided that the said period may, while a Proclamation of Emergency issued under arti-cle 352 of the Constitution of India is in operation, be extended by the State Legislature by law for a period not exceeding one year at a time and not extending in any case beyond a period of six months after the Proclamation has ceased to operate. (2) The Legislative Council shall not be subject to dissolution but as nearly as possible one-third of the members thereof shall retire, as soon as may be, on the expiration of every second year in accordance with the provisions made in that behalf by Legislature by law. 53. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall from time to time summon each House of the Legislature to meet at such time and place as he thinks fit, but six months shall not intervene between its last sitting in one session and the date appointed for its first sitting in the next session. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may from time to time... (a) prorogue the House or either house (b) dissolve the Legislative Assembly. 54. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may address either House of Legislature, or both Houses assembled together, and may for that purpose require the attendance of members. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may send messages to either House, whether with respect to a Bill then bending in the Legislature, or otherwise and a House to which any message is so sent shall with all convenient dispatch consider any matter required by the message to be taken into consideration. 55. (1) At the commencement of the first session after each general election to the Legislative Assembly and at the commencement of the first session of each year, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall address both Houses of Legislature assembled together and inform the Legislature of the cause of its summons. (2) Provision shall be made by the rules regulating the procedure of either House for the allot-ment of time for discussion of the matters reffered to in such address. 56. Every Minister and the Advocate General shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings, of both Houses and to speak in, and otherwise to to take part in the proceedings of, any Committee-of the Legislature of which he may be named a member, but shall not, by virtue of this section, be entitled to vote. *OFFICERS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* 57. The Legislative Assembly shall, as soon as may be, choose two members of the Assembly to be res-pectively Speaker and Deputy Speaker thereof and, so often at office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant, the Assembly shall choose another member to be Speaker, or Deputy Speaker, as the case may be. 58. A member holding office as Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the Legislative Assembly: (a) shall vacate his office if he ceases to be a member of the Assembly; (b) may at any time by writing under his hand addressed, if such member is the Speaker, to the Deputy Speaker, and if such member is the Deputy Speaker, to the Speaker, resign his office; and (c) may be removed from his office by a resolu-tion of the Assembly passed by a majority of all the then members of the Assembly; Provided that no resolution for the purpose of clause (c) shall be moved unless at least fourteen days notice has been given of the intention to move the resolution. Provided further that, whenever the Assembly is dissolved, the Speaker that not vacate his office until immediately before the first meeting of the Assembly after the dissolution. 59. (1) While the office of Speaker is vacant the duties of the office shall be performed by the Deputy Speaker or, if the office of the Deputy Speaker is also vacant, by such member of the Assembly as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may appoint for the purpose. (2) During the absence of the Speaker from any sitting of the Assembly the Deputy speaker or, if he is also absent, such person as may be determined by the rules of procedure of the Assembly, or, if no such person is present, such other person as may be determined by the Assembly, shall act as Speaker. 60. (1) At any sitting of the Legislative Assembly, while any resolution for the removal of the Speaker from his office is under consideration, the Speaker, or while any resolution for the removal of the Deputy Speaker from his office is under consideration, the Deputy Speaker shall not, though he is present, preside and the provisions of sub-section (2) of section 59 shall apply inrelation to every such sitting as they apply in relation to a sitting from which the Speaker or, as the case may be, the Deputy Speaker is absent. (2) The Speaker shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly while any resolu-tion for his removal from office is under con-sideration in the Assembly and shall, notwith-standing anything in section 67, be entitled to vote only in the first instance on such resolu-tion or on any other matter during such pro-ceedings but not in the case of an equality of votes. 61. (1) The Legislative Council shall, as soon as may be, choose two members of the Council to be respectively Chairman and Deputy Chairman thereof and, so often as the office of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman becomes vacant, the Council shall choose another member to be Chairman or Deputy Chairman, as the case may be. (2) The provisions of sections 58,59 and 60 shall apply in relation to the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council with the substitution of the words "Chairman" and "Council" for the words "Speaker" and "Assembly" respectively wherever they occur in those provisions, and with the omission of the further proviso to section 58. 62. There shall be pay to the speaker and the the Deputy Speaker of the Legislative Assembly and to the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council, such salaries and allowances as may be respectively fixed by Legislature by law and, until provi-sion in that behalf is so made, such salaries and allowances as are specified in the Third Schedule. 63. (1) Each House of the Legislature shall have a separate secretarial Staff: Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as preventing the creation of posts common to both Houses. (2) The Legislature may by law regulate the re-cruitment, and the conditions of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of each House. (3) Until provision is made by the Legislature under sub-section (2), the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, after consultation with the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case may be, make rules regulating the recruitment, and the con-ditions of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of the Assembly or the Council, and any rules so made shall have effect subject to the provisions of any law made under the said sub-section. *CONDUCT OF BUSINESS* 64. Every member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative Council shall before taking his seat, make and sub-scribe before the Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him an oath or affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. 65. Save as otherwise provided by the rules of proce-dure of the House, the quorum to constitute a meeting of the Legislative Assembly and of the Legislative Council shall be twenty and ten re-spectively. 66. A House of the Legislature shall have power to act notwithstanding any vacancy in the membership thereof, and any proceedings in the Legislature shall be valid notwithstanding that it is discovered subsequently that some person who was not entitl-ed so to do sat or voted or otherwise took part in the proceedings. 67. (1) Save as otherwise provided in this Constitu-tion, all questions at any sitting of a House of the Legislature shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting, other than the Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such. (2) The Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such, shall not vote in the first instance, but shall have and exercise a casting vote in the case of an equality of votes. *DISQUALIFICATIONS OF MEMBERS*** 68. (1) No person shall be a member of both Houses of the Legislature and provision shall be made by Legislature by law for the vacation by a person who is chooser a member of both Houses of his seat in one House or the other. (2) If a member of a House of the Legislature resigns his seat by writing under his hand addressed to tile Speaker or the Chairman, as the case may be, his s at shall thereupon become vacant. (3) If for a period of sixty days a member of a House of the Legislature is without permission of the House absent from all meetings thereof, the House may declare his seat vacant: Provided that in computing the said period of sixty days no account shall be taken of: (a) such absence caused by reason beyond his control; or (b) any period during which the House is prorogued or is adjourned for more than four consecutive days. 69. (1) A person shall be disqualified for being chosen and for being a member of the Legislative Assembly or Legislative Council: (a) if he holds any office of profit under the Government of India or the State Govern-ment within the Union of India, other than an office declared by Legislature by law not to dis-qualify its holder; (b) if he is of unsound mind and stands so declared by a competent court; (c) if he is an undischarged insolvent; (d) if he is not a permanent resident of the State or has voluntarily acquired the citizenship of a foreign State, or is under any acknowledgement of allegiance to adherence to a foreign State; (e) if he is so disqualified by or under any law made by the Legislature. (2) For the purposes of this section, a person shall not be deemed to hold an office of profit under the Government of India, the State Government or any other State Government vithin the Union of India, by reason only that he is a Minister, or a Deputy Minister. 70. (1) If it is represented to the Speaker or the Chairman that a member of the Legislative Assembly or, as the case may be, of the Legis-lative Council is disqualified for being such a member under the provisions of section 69, or was so disqualified at any time since being chosen as a member and the member does not admit that he is or was so disqualified, the question shall be referred to the High Court decision and its decision shall be final: Provided that w here the disqualification in question arises from circumstances which subsisted at the time of his being chosen as such member, no such representation as aforesaid shall be entertained: (a) unless it is made after the expiration of the period by law for presenting an elec-tion petition calling in question the election of the member; and (b) if such an election petition is pending or has been tried, unless the Speaker or Chairman as the case may be is satisfied that the question of the members' disquali-fication by reason of those circumstances has not been raised or, as the case may be, was not raised, in the proceedings on the election petition. (2) Where on a representation made under sub-section (I) the member admits that he is or w. s disqualified under the provisions of section 69, or where on a reference made under that sub-section the High Court decides that the member is or was so disqualified, his seat shall thereupon become vacant. 71. If a person sits or votes as a member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative Council before he has complied with the requirements of section 54 or when he knows that he is not quali-fied or that he is disqualified for membership thereof or that he is prohibited from so doing by the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, he shall be liable in respect of each day on which he so sits or votes to a penalty of one hundred rupees to be recovered as a debt due to the State. *POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND ITS MEMBERS* 72. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the rules and standing orders regulating the procedure of the Legislature, there shall be freedom of speech in the Legislature. (2) No member of the Legislature shall be liable to any proceedings in any court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in the Legislature or any committee thereof and no person shall be so liable in respect of the publication by or under the authority of a House of the Legislature of any report, paper, votes, or proceedings. (3) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of a House of the Legislature and- of the members and the committees of a House of the Legislature shall be such as may from time to time be defined by Legislature by law, and until so defined shall be those of the Parliament of India and of its members and committees. (4) The provisions of sub-sections (1), (2) and (3) shall apply in relation to persons who by virtue of this Constitution have the right t o speak, in and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of, a House of the Legislature or any committee thereof as they apply in relation to members of that Legislature. 73. Members of the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council shall be entitled to receive such salaries and allowances as may from time to time be determined by Legislature by law and, until provision in that respect is so made, salaries and allowances at such rates and upon such conditions as were immediately before the commencement of this Constitution applicable in the case of members of the Constituent Assembly. *LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURE* 74. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 76 and 84 with respect to Money Bills and other Finan-cial Bills, a Bill may originate in either House of the Legislature. (2) Subject to the provisions of sections 75 and 76 a Bill shall not be deemed to have been passed by the Legislature unless it has been agreed to by both Houses, either without amendment or with such amendments only as are agreed to by both Houses. (3) A Bill pending in the Legislature shall not lapse by reason of the prorogation of the House or House thereof. (4) A Bill pending in the Legislative Council which has not been passed by the Legislative Assembly shall not lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly. (5) A Bill which is pending in the Legislative Assembly or which having been passed by the Legislative Assembly, is pending in the Legi-slative Council, shall lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly 75. (1) If after a Bill has been passed by the Legisla-tive Assembly and transmitted to the Legisla-tive Council: (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or (b) more than three months elapse from the date on which the Bill is laid before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Legisl-ative Assembly may, subject to the rules regulating its procedure, pass the Bill again in the same or in any subse-quent session with or without such amendments, if any, as have been made suggested or agreed to by the Legislative Council and then transmit the Bill as so passed to the Legislative Council. (2) If after a Bill has been so palmed for the se-cond time by the legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council: (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or (b) more shall one month elapses from the date on which the Bill is laid before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Houses of the Legislature in the form in which it passed by the Legislative Assembly for the second time with such amendments, if any, as have been made or suggested by the Legislative Council and agreed to by the Legislative Assembly. (3) Nothing in this section shall apply to a Money Bill. 76. (1) A Money Bill shall not be introduced in the Legislative Council. (2) After a Money Bill has been passed by the Legislative Assembly, it shall be transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommenda-tions and the Legislative Council shall within a period of fourteen days from the date of its receipt of the Bill return the Bill to the Legis-lative Assembly with its recommendations, and the Legislative Assemble may there upon either accept or reject all or any of the recom-mendations of the Legislative Council. (3) If the Legislative Assembly accepts any of the recommendations of the Legislative Council, the Money Bil] shall deemed to have been passed by both Houses with the amend-ments recommended by the Legislative Coun-cil and accepted by the Legislative Assembly. (4) If the Legislative Assembly does not accept any of the recommendations of the Legislative Council, the Money Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by both Houses in the form which it was passed by the Legislative Assembly without any of the amendments recommended by the Legislative Council. 5. If a Money Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommendations is not returned to the Legislative Assembly within the said period of fourteen days, it shall be deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the said period in the form in which it was passed by the Legislative Assembly. 77. (1) For the purposes of the part, a Bill shall be deemed to be a Money Bill if it contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the following matters namely: (a) the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of any tax; (b) the regulation of the borrowing of money or the giving of any guarantee by the State, or the amendment of the law with respect to any financial obligations under-taken or to be undertaken by the State; (c) the custody of the Consolidated Fund or the Contingency Fund of the State, the payment of money into or the with-drawal of moneys from any such Fund: (d) the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State; (e) the declaring of any expenditure to be expenditure charges on the consolidated Fund of the State, or the increasing of the amount of any such expenditure; (f) the receipt of money on account of the Consolidated Fund of the State or the public account of the State or the custody or issue of such money; or any matter incidental to any of the matters specified in clauses (a) to (f). (2) A Bill shall not be deemed to be a Money Bill by reason only that it provides for the imposition of fines or other pecuniary penalties or for the demand or payment of fees for lice-nces or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. (3) If any question arises whether a Bill introduced in the Legislature is a Money Bill or not, the decision of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly thereon shall be final. (4) There shall be endorsed an every Money Bill when it is transmitted to the Legislative Council under section 76 and when it is pre-sented to the Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent under section 78, the certificate of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly signed by him that it is a Money Bill. 78. When a Bill has been passed by both Houses of the Legislature, it shall be presented to the Sadar--i-Riyasat and the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall declare either that he assents to the Bill or that he with-holds assent therefrom. Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, as soon as possible after the presentation to him of the Bill for assent, return the Bill if it is not a Money Bill together with a message requesting that the Houses will reconsider the Bill or any specified provisions thereof and, in particular, will consider the desira-bility of introducing any such amendments as he may recommend in his message and, when a Bill is so returned, the Houses shall reconsider the Bill accordingly, and if the Bill is passed again by the Houses with or without amendment and presented to the Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not withhold assent therefrom. *PROCEDURE IN FINANCIAL MATTERS* 79. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall in respect of every financial year cause to be laid before both Houses of the Legislature a statement of the estimated receipts and expenditure of the State for that year, in this part referred to as the "annual financial statement." (2) The estimates of expenditure embodied in the annual financial statement shall show separately (a) the sums required to meet expenditure described by this constitution as expendi-ture charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State; and (b) the sums required to meet other expendi-ture proposed to be made from the con-solidated Fund of the State; and shall distinguish expenditure on revenue account from other expenditure. (3) The following expenditure shall be expenditure charged on the consolidated fund of the State: (a) the emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and other expenditure relating to his office; (b) the salaries and allowances of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of the Legislative Assembly and of the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council; (c) debt charges for which the State is liable including interest, sinking fund charges and redemption charges. and other expenditure relating to the raising of loans and the service and redemption of debt; (d) expenditure in respect of the salaries and allowances of the Judges of the High Court; (e) any sums required to satisfy any judge-ment decree or award of any Court or arbitral tribunal; (f) any other expenditure declared by this Constitution, or by Legislature by law, to be so charged. 80. (1,) So much of the estimates as relates to expen-diture changed upon the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be submitted to the vote of the Legislative Assembly, but nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as preven-ting the discussion in the Legislature of any those estimates. (2) So much of the said estimates as relates to other expenditure shall be submitted in the form of demands for grants to the Legislative Assembly, and the Legislative Assembly shall have power to assent, or to refuse to assent, to any demand, or to assent to any demand subject to a reduction of the amount specified therein. (3) No demand for a grant shall be made except on the recommendation of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. (1) As soon as may be after the grants under section 80 have been made by the Assembly, there shall be introduced a Bill to provide for the appropriation out of the Consolidated fund of the State of all moneys required to meet: (a) the grants so made by the Assembly; and (b) the expenditure charged on the Consoli-dated Fund of the State but not exceed-ing in any case the amount shown in the statement previously laid before the Houses. (23 No amendment shall be proposed to any such Bill in either House of the Legislature which will have the effect of varying the amount or altering the destination of any grant to made or of varying the amount of any expenditure charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State, and the decision of the person presiding as to whether an amendment is inadmissible under the sub-section shall be final. (3) Subject to the provisions of sections 89 and 83, no money shall be withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund of the State except under appropriation made by law passed in accor-dance with the provisions of this section 12. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall: (a) if the amount authorised by any law made in accordance with provisions of section 81 to be expended for a particular service for the current financial year is found to be insufficient for the purposes of that year or when a need has arisen during the current financial year for supplemen-tary or additional expenditure upon some new service not contemplated in the annual financial statement for that year; or (b) if any money has been spent on any ser-vice during a financial year in excess of the amount granted for the service and for that year, cause to be laid before the Houses of the Legislature another statement showing the estimated amount of that expenditure or cause to be presented to the Legis-lative Assembly a demand for such excess, as the case may be. (2) The provisions of sections 79, 80 and 81 shall have effect in relation to any such statement and expenditure or demand and also to any law to be made authorising the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure or the grant in respect of such demand as they have effect in relation to the annual financial state-ment and the expenditure mentioned therein or to a demand for grant and the law to be 'made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the state to meet such expenditure or grant. 83. (1) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this Part, the Legislative Assem-bly shall have power: (a) to make any grant in advance in respect of the estimated expenditure for a part of any financial year pending the completion of the procedure prescribed in section 80 for the voting of such grant and the pas-sing of the law in accordance with the provisions of section 81 in relation to that expenditure; (b) to make a grant for meeting an unexpec-ted demand upon the resources of the State when on account of the magnitude or the indefinite character of the services the demand cannot be stated with the details ordinarily given in an annual financial statement; (c) to make an exceptional grant which forms no part of the current service of any financial year; and the Legislature shall have power to authorise by law the withdrawal of moneys from the Consolidated Fund of the State for the purposes for which the said grants are made. (2) The provisions of sections 80 and 81 shall have effect in relation to the making of any grant under sub-section (1) and to law to be made under that sub-section as they have effect in relation to the making of a grant with regard to any expenditure mentioned h1 the annual financial statement and the law to be made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure. 84. (1) A bill or amendment making provision for any of the matters specified in clauses (a) to (f) of sub-section (1) of section 77 shall not be introduced or moved except on the recom-mendation of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and a Bill making such provision shall not be introdu-ced in the Legislative Council: Provided that no recommendation shall be required under this sub-section for the moving of an amendment making provision for the reduction or abolition of any tax. (2) A Bill or amendment shall not be deemed to make provision for any of the matters afore-said by reason only that it provides for the. imposition of fines or other pecuniary penal-ties, or for the demand or payment of fees for licences or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. (3) A Bill which, if enacted and brought into operation. would involve expenditure from the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be passed by a House of the Legislature unless the Sadar-i-Riyasat has recommended to that House the consideration of the Bill. *PROCEDURE GENERALLY* 85. (1) A House of the Legislature may make rules for regulating, subject to the provisions of this Constitution, its procedure and the con-duct of its business. (2) Until rules are made under sub-section (1), the rules of procedure and standing orders in force immediately before the commencement of this Constituent Assembly while discharging the functions of the Legislative Assembly shall have effect in relation to each House of the Legislature subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be made therein by the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case may be. (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, after consultation with the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly and the Chairman of the Legislative Council, may make- rules as to the procedure with respect to communications between the two Houses. 86. The Legislature may, for the purpose of the timely completion of financial business, regulate by law the procedure of, and the conduct of business in. the House of the Legislature in relation to any financial matter or to any Bill for the appropria-tion of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State, and, if and so far as any provision of any law so made is inconsistent with any rule made by either House of the Legislature under sub-section (I) of section 85 or with any rule of standing order having effect in relation to either House of the Legislature under sub-section (2) of that section such provisions shall prevail. 87. Business in the Legislature shall be transacted in Urdu or in English. (1) Provided that the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council or person acting as such, as the case may be, may permit any member to address the House in Hindi, or if he cannot adequa-tely express himself in any of the aforesaid languages, to address the House in his mother-tongue. (2) The official records of the proceedings in the Legislature shall be kept in Urdu as well as in English. (3) The text of all Bills and amendments there of moved in and of all Acts passed by the Legis-lature which shall be treated as authoritative, shall be in English. 88. No discussion shall take place in the Legislature with respect to the conduct of any Judge of the Supreme Court or of the High Court in the discharge of his duties. 89. (1) The validity of any proceedings in the Legis-lature shall not be called in question -on the gro-unds of any alleged irregularity of procedure. (2) No officer or member of the Legislature in whom powers are vested by or under this Constitution for regulating procedure or the conduct of Business, or for maintaining order, in the Legislature shall be subject to the juris-diction of any court in respect of the exercise by him of those powers. 90. No Act of the Legislature and no provision in any such Act shall be invalid by reason only that some recommendation required by this Constitution was not given, if assent to that Act was given by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. Legislative power of the Sadar-i-Riyasat: 91. (1) If at any time, except when both Houses of the Legislature are in session, the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that circumstances exist which render it necessary for him to take immediate action; he may promulgate such Ordinances as the circums-tances appear to him to require. Provided that the power of making Ordinance under this Section shall extend only to those matters with respect to which the Legislature has power to make laws. (2) An Ordinance promulgated under this section shall have the same force and effect as an Act of the Legislature assented to by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, but every such Ordinance: (a) shall be laid before both the Houses of the Legislature, and shall cease to operate at the expiration of six weeks from the re-assembly of the Legislature, or if be-fore tile expiration of that period a reso-lution disapproving it is passed by the Legislative Assembly and agreed to by Legislative Council, upon the resolution being agreed to by the Legislative Coun-cil, and - (b) may be withdrawn at any time by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. Explanation: - Where the Houses of the Legislature are summoned to re-assemble on different dates the period of six weeks shall be reckoned from the latter of those dates for the purposes of this sub-section. Breakdown of Constitutional Machinery. 92. (1) If at any time the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that a situation has arisen in which the Government of the State cannot be carried on in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by Proclamation: (a) assume to himself all or any of the func-tions of the Government of the State and all or any of the powers vested in or excercisable by anybody or authority in the State; (b) make such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to the Sadar-i--Riyasat to be necessary or desirable for giving effect to the objects of the Procla-mation, including provisions for suspen-ding in whole or in part the operation of any provision of this Constitution rela-ting to any body or authority in the State: Provided that nothing in this section shall authorised die Sadar-i-Riyasat to assume to himself any of the powers vested in or exer-cisable by the High Court or to suspend in whole or in part the operation of any provi-sion of this Constitution relating to the High Court. (2) Any such Proclamation may be revoked or carried by a subsequent Proclamation. (3) Any such Proclamation whether varied under sub-section (2) or not, shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous Proclama-tion, cease to operate on the expiration of six months from the date on which it divas first Issued. (4) If the Sadar-i-Riyasat by a Proclamation under this section assumes to himself any of the powers of the legislature to make laws, any law made by him in the exercise of that power shall, subject to the terms thereof, continue to have effect until two years have elapsed from the date on which the Proclamation ceases to have effect, unless sooner repealed or re-enacted by an Act of the Legislature, and any reference in this Constitution to any Acts of or laws made by the Legislature shall be construed as including a reference to such law. No Proclamation under sub-section (1) shall be issued except with the concurrence of the President of India. (6) Every Proclamation under this section shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous Proclamation, be laid before each house of the Legisiature as soon as it is convened. *PART VII* *THE HIGH COURT* 93. (1) There shall be a High Court for the State, consisting of a Chief Justice and two or more other judges. (2) The High Court exercising jurisdiction in relation to the State Immediately before the commencement of this Constitution shall be the High Court for the State. 94. The High Court shall be a court of record and shall have all the powers of such a courts including the power to punish for contempt of itself or of the courts subordinate to it. 95. Every Judge of the High Court shall be appointed by the President by Warrant under his hand and seal after consultation with the Chief Justice of India, the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and in the case of appointment of a Judge other than the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice of the High Court and shall hold office until he attains the age of sixty years. 96. A person shall not be qualified for appointment as a Judge of the High Court unless he is a citizen of India, and: (a) has for at least ten years held a judicial office in the State or in any other part of India; or (b) has for at least ten years been an advocate of the State High Court or of any other High Court in India or of two or more such courts in succession. Explanation: - For the purposes of this Section in omputing the period during which a person has been an advocate of a High Court. there shall be included any period during which the person has held judicial office after he became an advocate. 97. Every person appointed to be a Judge of the High Court, shall. before he enters upon his office, make an subscribe before the Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him, an oath or affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. 98. (1) There shall be paid to the Judges of the High Court such salaries as are specified in the Fourth Schedule. (a) Every Judge shall be entitled to such allowan-ces and to such rights in respect of leave of absence and pension as may from time to time be determined by or under law made by the Legislature, and until so determined, to such allowances and rights as are specified in the Fourth Schedule: Provided that neither the allowances of a Judge nor his rights in respect of leave of absence or pension shall be varied to his dis-advantage after his appointment: 99. (1) A Judge of the High Court may, by writing under his hand addressed to the President, resign his office. (2) A Judge of the High Court shall not be removed from his office except by an order of the President passed after an address by each House of the Legislature supported by a majority of the total membership of that House and by a majority of not less than two- thirds of the members of that House present and voting has been presented to the president in the same session for such removal on the ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity. (3) The Legislature may by law regulate the procedure for the presentation of an address and for the investigation and proof of the misbehaviour or incapacity of a Judge under sub-section (2). 100. (1) When the office of the Chief Justice is vacant or when the Chief Justice is by reason of absence or otherwise, unable to perform the duties of his office, the duties of the office shall be performed by such one of the other Judges of the Court as the President may appoint for the purpose. (2) When any Judge of the High Court other than the Chief Justice is by reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the duties of his office or is appointed to act temporarily as Chief Justice, the President may appoint a duly qualified person to act as a Judge of the Court until the permanent Judge has resumed his duties. 101. (1) The usual places of sitting of the High Court shall be Jammu and Srinagar. (2) The Chief Justice shall, with the approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat determine the number of Judges who shall sit from time to time at Jammu and at Srinagar for such period as may be deemed necessary. (3) Whenever it appears to the Chief Justice that it is desirable that the High Courts should hold its sitting at a place other than Srinagar and Jummu, one or more Judges of the High Court as determined by him shall, with the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, sit at such place. 102. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the provisions of any law for the time being in force, the jurisdiction of and the law administered in the High Court and the respective powers of the Judges thereof in relation to the administration of justice in the court, including any power to make rules of court and to regulate the sittings of the court and of members thereof, sitting alone or in Division Courts, shall be the same as immedia-tely before the commencement of this Constitution. 103. The High Court shall have power to issue to any person or authority, including in appropriate cases any Government within the State, directions, orders or writs. including writs in the nature of habeas corpus, mandamus, prohibition, quo warranto and certiorari, or any of them. for any purpose other than those mentioned in clause (2A) of article 32 of the Constitution of India. 104. (1) The High Court shall have superintendence and control over all courts for the time being subject to its appellate or revisional jusrisdic-tion and all such courts shall be subordinate to the High Court. (I) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, the High court may: (a) call for returns from such courts, (b) make and issue general rules and prescribe forms for regulating the practice and pro-ceedings of such courts; and (c) Prescribe forms in which books, entries and accounts shall be kept by the officers of any such court. (3) The High Court may also settle tables of fees to be allowed to the sheriff and all clerks and officers of such courts and to attorneys, advo-cates and pleaders practicing therein: Provided that any rules made, forms prescrib-ed or tables settled under sub-section (2) or sub-section(3) shall not be inconsistent with the provision of any law for the time being in force, and shall require the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. 105. If the High Court is satisfied that a case pending in a court subordinate to it involves a substantial question of law as to the interpretation of this Constitution or the Constitution of India the deter-mination of which is necessary for the disposal of the case, it shall withdraw the case and may: (a) either dispose of the case itself; or (b) determine the said question of law and return the case to the court from which the case has been so withdrawn together with a copy of its judgement on such question, and the said court shall on receipt thereof proceed to dispose of the case in conformity with such judgement. 106. No person who had held office as a Judge of the High Court after the commencement of this Con-stitution shall plead or act in any court or before any authority within the State. 107. (1) The High Court shall have and use as occa-sion may require a seal bearing a device and impression of the State emblem with an exergue or label surrounding the same with the inscription: "The seal of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir'' (2) The seal shall be delivered to. and kept in the custody of, the Registrar or such other officer of the court as the Chief Justice may designate in this behalf. 108. (1) Appointments of officers and servants of the High Court shall be made by the Chief Justice of the court or such other judge or officer of the court as he may direct: Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by rule require that in such cases as may be specified in the rule no person not already attached to the court shall be appointed to any office connected with the court save after consulta-tion with the State Public Service Commis-sion. (I) Subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the conditions of service of the officers and servants of the High Court shall be such as may be prescribed by rules made by the High Court with the approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. (3) The administrative expenses of the High Court including all salaries, allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the officers and servants of the Court' shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State, and any fees or other moneys taken by the Court shall form part of that Fund. *SUBORDINATE COURTS* 109. (1) Appointment of persons to be, and the postings: and promotion off district judges in the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in con-sultation with the High Court. (2) A person not already in the service of the : State shall only be eligible to be appointed a district judge if he has been for not less than seven years an advocate or pleader and is recommended by the High Court for appointment. 110. Appointment of persons other than district judges to the judicial service of the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in accordance with rules made by him in that behalf after consulation with the Public Service Commission and with the High Court. 111. The control over district courts and courts sub-ordinate thereto including the posting and promo-tion of, and the grant of leave to, persons belong-ing to the judicial service of the State and holding any post inferior to the post of district judge shall be vested in the High Court, but nothing in this section shall be construed as taking away from any such person any right of appeal which he may have under the law regulating the conditions of his service or as authorising the High Court to deal with him otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of his service prescribed under such law. 112. In this part... (a) the expression "district judge'' includes additional district judge, assistant district judge, sessions judge, additional sessions judge and assistant sessions judge: (b) the expression "judical service" means a service consisting exclusively of persons inten-ded to fill the post of district judge, and other civil judicial posts inferior to the post of dis-trict judge. 113. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be public notification direct that the foregoing provisions of this part and any rules made thereunder shall with effect from such date as may be fixed by him in that behalf apply in relation to any class or classes of magis-trates in the State as they apply in relation to any persons appointed to the judicial service of the State Subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified in the notification. *PART VIII* *FINANCE, PROPERTY AND CONTRACTS* 114. No tax shall be levied or collected except by authority of law. 115. (1) Subject to the provisions of section 116, all revenues received by the Government, all loans raised by the Government by the issue of treasury bills, loans or ways and means advances and all moneys received by Government in repayment of loaned shall form one consolidated fund to be entitled "the Consolidated Fund of the State." (2) All other public moneys received by or on behalf of the Government shall be credited to the public account of the State. (3) No moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State shall be appropriated except in accordance with law and for the purposes and in the manner provided in this Constitution. 116. The Legislature may by law establish a Contingency Fund in the nature of an impress to be entitled "the Contingency Fund of the State" into which shall be paid from time to time such sums as may be determined by such law, and the said Fund shall be placed at the disposal of the Sadar-i--Riyasat to enable advances to be made by him out of such fund for the purposes of meeting unforeseen expenditure pending authorisation of such expendi-ture by Legislature by law under section 82 or 83. 117. The State may make any grants for any public purpose, notwithstanding that the purpose is not one with expect to which the Legislature may make. 118. The custody of the Consolidated Fund of the State and the Contingency Funds of the State, the payment of moneys into such funds, the withdrawal of moneys therefrom, the custody of public moneys other than those credited to such Fund received by or on behalf of the Government, their payment into the public account of the State and the withdrawal of moneys from such account and all other matters connected with or ancillary to matters aforesaid shall be regulated by law made by the Legislature and, until provision in that behalf is so made, shall be regulated by rules made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. 119. All moneys received by or deposited with: (a) any officer employed in connection with the affairs of the State in his capacity as such, other than revenues or public moneys raised or received by the Government; or (b) an, court within the State to the credit of any cause, matter, account or persons, shall be paid into the public account of the State. 120. Any property within the State which, if this Constitution had not come up into operation, would have accrued to the Government or any other authority hi the State by escheat or lapse, or as bona-vacantia for want of a rightful owner, shall vest in the State. 121. (1) The executive power of the State shall extend, subject to any law made by the State Legisla-ture, to the carrying on of any trade or busi-ness, and to the grant, scale, disposition or mortgage of any property held for the purposes of the State, and to the purchase or acquisi-tion of property for those purposes and to the making of contracts. (2) All property acquired for the purposes of the State shall vest in the State. 122. (1) All contracts made in the exercise of the executive power of the State shall be expressed to be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and all such contracts and all assurance of property made in the exercise of that power shall be executed on behalf of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by such persons and in such manner as he may direct or authorise. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be personally liable in respect of any contract or assurance made or executed for the purposes of this Constitution, or for the purposes any of enact-ment relating to the Government of the State heretofore in force, nor shall any person making or executing any such contract or assurance on his behalf be personally liable in respect thereof. 123. The Government may sue or be sued by the name of the State of Jammu and Kashmir and may, subject to any provisions which may be made by Act of the Legislature enacted by virtue of powers conferred by this Constitution, sue or be sued in relation to its affairs in the like cases as the State might have sued or been sued if this Constitution had not been enacted. *PART IX* *THE PUBLIC SERVICE* 124. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may by law regulate the recruitment and conditions of service of persons appointed, to public services and posts in connection with the affairs of the State: Provided that it shall be competent for the Sadar--i-Riyasat or such person as he may direct, to make rules regulating the recruitment and the conditions of services of persons appointed, to such services and posts until provisions in that behalf is made by or under an Act of the Legislature under this section, and any rules so made shall effect subject to the provisions of any such Act. 125. (1) Except expressly provided by this Constitution, every person who is a member of a civil service of the State or holds any civil post under the State hold office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. (2) Notwithstanding that a person holding a civil post under the State holds office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, any contract under which a person, not being a member of a civil service of the State, is appointed to hold such a post man, if the Sadar-i-Riyasat deems it necessary in order to secure the services of a person having special qualifications, provide for tile payment to him of compensation, if before the expiration of an agreed period that post is abolished or he is, for reasons not connected with any miscon-duct on his part required to vacate that post. 126. (1) No person who is a member of a civil service of tile State or holds a civil post under the State shall be distressed or removed by an authority subordinate to that by which he was appointed. (2) No such person as aforesaid shall be dismissed or removed or reduced in rank until he has been given a reasonable opportunity of show-ing cause against the action proposed to be taken in regard to him: Provided that this sub-section shall not apply: (a) where a person is dismissed or removed or reduced in rank on the ground of con-duct which has led to his conviction on a criminal charge; (b) where an authority empowered to dismiss or remove a person or to reduce him in rank is satisfied that for some reason, to be recorded by that authority in writing, it is not reasonably practicable to give to that person an opportunity of showing cause; or (c) where the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that in the interests of the security of the State it is not expedient to give to that person such an opportunity. (3) If any question arises whether it is reasonably practicable to give to any person an oppor-tunity of showing cause under sub-section. (4) The decision thereon of the authority empo-wered to dismiss or remove such person or to reduce him in rank, as the case may be, shall be final. 127. Until other Provisional is made in this behalf under the constitution, all the laws in force im-mediately before the commencement of this Consti-tution and applicable to any public service or any post which continues to exist after the commence-ment of this Constitution as service or post under the- State, shall continue in force so far as consistent with the provisions of this Constitu-tion. *THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION* 128. There shall be a Public Service Commission (here-inafter referred to in this Part as "the Commi-ssion" for the State. 129. (1) The Chairman and other members of the Commission shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat: Provided that as nearly as may be one-half of the members of the Commission shall be persons who at the dates of their respective appointments have held office for at least ten years under the Government. (2) A member of the Commission shall hold office of a terms of five years from the date on which he enters upon his office or until he attains the age of sixty-five years, whichever is earlier: Provided that: (a) a member of the Commission may, by writing under his hand addressed to the Sadar-i-Riyasat, resign his office (b) a member of the Commission may be removed from his office in the manner hereinafter provided. (3) A person who holds office as a member of the Commission shall on the expiration of his term of office, be ineligible for re-appointment to that office. 130. (1) Subject to the provisions of sub-section (3), the Chairman or any other member of the Commission shall only be removed from his office by order of the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the ground of misbehaviour after the High Court on reference being made to it by the Sadar-i--Riyasat, has, on inquiry held in that behalf, reported that the Chairman or such other member, as the case may be ought on any such ground to be removed. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may suspend from office the Chairman or any other member of the Commission in respect of whom a reference has been made to the High Court under sub-section (l) until the Sadar-i-Riyasat has passed orders on receipt of the report of the High Court on such reference. (3) Notwithstanding anything in sub-section (1) the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order remove from office the Chairman or any other mem-ber of the Commission if the Chairman on. such other member, as the case may be - (a) is adjudged an insolvent; or (b) engages during his term of office in any paid employment out side the duties of his office; or (c) is, in the opinion of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, unfit to continue in office by reason of infirmity of mind or body. (4) If the Chairman or any other member of the Commission is or becomes in anyway concern-ed or interested in any contract or agreement made by or on behalf of the Government of the State, the Government of India or the Government of any other State in India or participates in anyway in the profit thereof or in any benefit or emolument arising therefrom otherwise than as a member and in common with other members of an incorporated company, he shall, for the purposes of sub-section (1), be deemed to be guilty misbehavi-our. 131. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be regulations: (a) determine the number of members of the Commission and their conditions of service; and (b) make provision with respect to the num-ber of members of the staff of the Commission and - their conditions of service; Provided that the conditions of service of a member of the Commission shall not be varied to his disadvantage after his ap-pointment. 132. On ceasing to hold office the Chairman and the members of the Commission shall be ineligible for further office under the Government of the State, but a member other than the Chairman shall be eligible for appointment as a Chairman of the Commission. Explanation: - For the purposes of this sec-tion; the office of Minister or Deputy Minister shall not be deemed to be an office under the Government of the state. 133. (1) It shall be the duty of the Commissions to conduct examinations for appointment to the services of the State. (2) The Commission shall be consulted - (a) on all matters relating to methods of recruitment to civil services and for civil posts; (b) on the principles to be followed in making appointments to civil services and posts and in making promotions and transfers from one service to another and on the suitability of candidate for such appointments, promotions or transfers; (c) on all disciplinary matters affecting a person serving under the Government including memorials or petitions relating to such matters; and it shall be the duty of the Commission to advise on any matter so referred to them or on any other matter which the Sadar-i--Riyasat may refer to them: Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may make regulations specifying the matters in which either generally, or in any particular class of cases or in any particular circumstances, it shall not be necessary for the Commission to be consulted. (3) Nothing in sub-section (2) shall require the Commission to be consulted as respects the manner in which a provision may be made by the State for the reservation of appointment or posts in favour of any class of permanent residents which in the opinion of the Govern-ment is not adequately represented in the services under the State. (4) All regulations made under the proviso to sub-section (2) by the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be laid for not less than fourteen days before each House of the Legislature as soon as possible after they made, and shall be subject to such modifications, whether by way or repeal or amendment, as the Legislative Assembly may make during the session in which they are so laid. 134. If the office of the Chairman of the Commission becomes vacant or if the Chairman is by reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the duties of his office, those duties shall until some person appointed under sub-section (1) of section 129 to the vacant office has entered on the duties thereof or, as the case may be until the Chairman has resumed his duties, be performed by such one of the other members of the Commission as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may appoint for the purpose. 135. An Act made by the Legislature may provide for the exercise of additional functions by the Commission as respects the services of the State and also as respects the services of any local authority or other body corporate constituted by law or of any public institution. 136. The expenses of the Commission, including any salaries, allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the members or the staff of the Com-mission, shall be charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State. 137. It shall be the duty of the Commission to present annually to the Sadar-i-Riyasat a report as to the work done by the Commission and the Sadar-I--Riyasat, on receipt of such report, shall cause a copy thereof together with a memorandum explai-ning, as respects the cases, if any, where the advice of the Commission was not accepted, the reasons for such non-acceptance to be laid before the Legislature. *PART X* *ELECTIONS* 138. (1) The superintendence, direction and control of the preparation of the electoral rolls for, and the conduct of, the elections held under Part VI shall, be vested in an Election Commissio-ner to be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, may, for such period as he may deem necessary appoint one or more Deputy Election Commissioners to assist the Election Commissioner in the per-formance of the functions conferred by sub-section (1). (3) subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the Conditions of service of the Election Commissioner and the Deputy Election Commissioner shall be such as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. (4) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may make acts viable to the Election Commissioner such staff as may be necessary for the discharge of the functions conferred on the Election Commissioner by sub-section (1). 139. There shall be one general electoral roll for every territorial constituency for election to either House of the Legislature and no person shall be ineligible for inclusion in any such roll or claim to be inclu-ded in any special electoral roll for any such consti-tuency on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex or any of them. 140. The elections to the Legislative Assembly shall be on the basis of adult suffrage; that is to say, every person who is a permanent resident of the State and who is not less than twenty-one years of age on such date as may be fixed in that behalf by or under any law made by the Legislature and is not otherwise disqualified under this Constitution or any law made by the Legislature on the ground of non-residence, unsoundness of mind, crime or corruptor illegal practice, shall be registered as a voter at any such election. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may from time to time by law make provision with respect to all matters relating to, or in connection with elections to either House of the Legislature, including the preparation of elec-toral rolls, the delimitation of constituencies, appointment of election tribunals and all other matters necessary for securing the due constitution of the two Houses. 142. Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution: (a) the validity of any law relating to the delimita-tion of territorial constituencies for the pur-pose of electing members of the Legislative Assembly or the allotment of seats to such constituencies, made or purporting to be made under section 141, shall not be called in ques-tion in any court; (b) no election to either House of the Legislature shall be called in question except by an elec-tion petition present to such authority and in such manner as may be provided for by or under any law made by the Legislature. *PART XI* *MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS* 143. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be answerable to any court for the exercise of performance of the powers and duties of his office or for any act done or purposing to be done by him in the exercise and performance of those -powers and duties. Provided that nothing in this subjection-sec-tion shall be construed as restricting the right of any person to bring appropriate proceed-ings against the Government. (2) No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or continued against the Sadar-I--Riyasat in any court during his term of office. No process for the arrest or imprisonment of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall issue from any court during his term of office. No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be instituted during his term of office in any court in res-pect of any act done or purporting to be done by him in his personal capacity, whether be-fore or after he entered upon his office as Sadar-i-Riyasat, until the expiration of two months next after notice in writing has been delivered to the Sadar-i-Riyasat or left at his office stating the nature of the proceedings the cause of action therefor, the name, descri-ption and place of residence of the party by whom such proceedings are to be instituted and the relief which he claims. 144. The flag of the State shall be rectangular in shape and red in colour with three equidistant white vertical stripes of equal with next to the staff and a white plough in the middle with the handle facing the stripes. The ratio of the length of the flag to its width shall be 3:2. 145. The official language of the State shall be Urdu, but the English language shall, unless the Legisla-ture by law otherwise provides continue to be used for all the official purpose of the State for which it was being used immediately before the com-mencement of this Constitution. . The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, as soon as may be, after the commencement of the Constitution establish an Academy of Arts, Culture and Language, where opportunities will be afforded for the development of Art and Culture of the State and for the development of Hindi, Urdu and other regional languages of the State specified in the Sixth Schedule.** *PART XII* *AMENDMENTS OF THE CONSTITUTION* 147. An amendment of this constitution may be initia-ted only by the introduction of a Bill for the pur-pose in the Legislative Assembly and when the Bill is passed in each House by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total membership of at the House, it shall be presented to the Sadar-i-Riyasat for his assent and, upon such assent being given to the Bill, the Constitution shall stand amended in accordance with the terms of the Bill: Provided that a Bill providing for the abolition of the Legislative Council may be intro-duced in the Legislative Assembly and passed by it majority of the total membership of the Assembly and by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the members of the Assembly present and voting: Provided further that no Bill or amendment seeking to make any change in: (a) this section; (b) the provisions of the sections 3 and 5; or (c) the provisions of the constitution of India as applicable in relation to the State; shall be introduced or moved in either house -of the Legislature. From hpp at vsnl.com Tue Dec 4 15:58:11 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:28:11 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Second statement by Comsky et al. Message-ID: <014701c83660$5126b270$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Dear Friends Here is the statement signed by Prof Noam Chomsky and others in the wake of the critique of their earlier statement following the recent events in Nandigram. V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com ................ We are taken aback by a widespread reaction to a statement we made with the best of intentions, imploring a restoration of unity among the left forces in India --a reaction that seems to assume that such an appeal to overcome divisions among the left could only amount to supporting a very specific section of the CPM in West Bengal. Our statement did not lend support to the CPM's actions in Nandigram or its recent economic policies in West Bengal, nor was that our intention. On the contrary, we asserted, in solidarity with its Left critics both inside and outside the party, that we found them tragically wrong. Our hope was that Left critics would view their task as one of putting pressure on the CPM in West Bengal to correct and improve its policies and its habits of governance, rather than dismiss it wholesale as an unredeemable party. We felt that we could hope for such a thing, of such a return to the laudable traditions of a party that once brought extensive land reforms to the state of West Bengal and that had kept communal tensions in abeyance for decades in that state. This, rather than any exculpation of its various recent policies and actions, is what we intended by our hopes for 'unity' among the left forces. We realize now that it is perhaps not possible to expect the Left critics of the CPM to overcome the deep disappointment, indeed hostility, they have come to feel towards it, unless the CPM itself takes some initiative against that sense of disappointment. We hope that the CPM in West Bengal will show the largeness of mind to take such an initiative by restoring the morale as well as the welfare of the dispossessed people of Nandigram through the humane governance of their region, so that the left forces can then unite and focus on the more fundamental issues that confront the Left as a whole, in particular focus on the task of providing with just and imaginative measures an alternative to neo-liberal capitalism that has caused so much suffering to the poor and working people in India. Signed Michael Albert Tariq Ali Akeel Bilgrami Victoria Brittain Noam Chomsky Charles Derber Stephen Shalom From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 23:57:18 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:27:18 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Second statement by Comsky et al. In-Reply-To: <014701c83660$5126b270$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> References: <014701c83660$5126b270$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Message-ID: Hi, Rama! Where did this statement appear? In The Hindu? Tapas On 04/12/2007, V Ramaswamy wrote: > Dear Friends > > Here is the statement signed by Prof Noam Chomsky and others in the wake of > the critique of their earlier statement following the recent events in > Nandigram. > > V Ramaswamy > Calcutta > cuckooscall.blogspot.com > > ................ > > We are taken aback by a widespread reaction to a statement we made with the > best of intentions, imploring a restoration of unity among the left forces From vivek at sarai.net Wed Dec 5 07:49:13 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 02:19:13 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Thursday 6 December -- General Audience Highlights Message-ID: <47560A92.6020907@sarai.net> Hi all, Things hot up a little as the workshop races to its conclusion. Highlights for a general audience tomorrow (Thursday 6 December) might early in the day and include the last part of artist Inder Salim's performance piece, a solo "forum theatre" show by Pritham Chakravarty, a feature length video presentation by Debkamal Ganguly, and the second of our special panels (the first special panel, yesterday, was truly fascinating), featuring ex-fellows Zainab Bawa, Parismita Singh, Madhavi Tangella and Prasad Shetty. Read on for details! And scroll to for detailed abstracts of the entire day's lineup. *Highlights for a General Audience -- Thursday December 6, 2007* (LTG Auditorium, Mandi House) 1. 6.15 – 6.45 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Performance Art: “This Evening Too: From Lal Ded to Abdul Ahad Zargar” by Inder Salim: Space limited to 25 persons only—first come, first serve. Inder Salim (indersalim @gmail.com), an Independent Fellow this year, is a performance artist based in Delhi. He blogs his work at: http://indersalim.livejournal.com/ 2. 7.15pm – 8pm Chennai Sabha Drama: An Actor’s Story: Solo performance by Pritham Chakravarty (running time: 30 mins) For her 2007 Independent Fellowship project, Pritham Chakravarty researched and revisited the lingering artifacts of a scene that she herself had been a part of as a child actress: Chennai’s “sabha drama”, a semi-amateur subscription theatre scene. Her solo show performance is not autobiographical, but is based on a composite reconstruction of interviews with actors and others—it draws on Chakravarty’s usual and intensive method of designing one-person scripts based on a series of interviews, inhabiting the persona of the interviewed. Pritham K. Chakravarty (prithu7 @hotmail.com) has been a political theatre performer and theatre activist based in Chennai for 20 years; but her acting debut first came on the Sabha drama stage itself, at the age of six. 3. 4.30 – 6.00 Work In “Progress”: Feature-length video by Debkamal Ganguly (87 minutes) Following the trail of a 1932 journey by one key Bengali novelist, Bibhutibhushan, the video tries to explore varied ways of interaction of 'urban-subject' with 'non-urban' forest and plateau-like spaces, close to the western border of West Bengal. Selecting Bangla texts as early as 1872 to as late as 2007, the video tries to articulate the changing trajectory of space-emotion, from mythical to self-conscious to sublime to existentialist and finally the virtual and hyper-real. The video acknowledges the random and arbitrary as an aesthetic function and recycles whatever comes along its way. Debkamal Ganguly (deb99kamal @yahoo.com)’s work as a scriptwriter, film and sound editor (including with director Vipin Vijay) has earned him some national and international recognition. He pursues this current project as a 2007 Sarai-CSDS Associate Fellow. 4. 2.15 –4.15 Special Panel: Where Does Research Go? Featuring: Zainab Bawa, Parismita Singh, Madhavi Tangella and Prasad Shetty. Discussant: Vivek Narayanan. If research really did proceed as it plans to do, time after time, in the bright, overdeterminate clarity of good proposals, asking direct questions and receiving exact answers, this would not be saying very much for the richness or depth of our lives, our social and built structures and knotted networks! Instead, we wander, we diverge, we rethink, we scratch out, we revisit: the strength of research is not in the attempt to control the world’s material but in questions leading to new questions, that is, in the ability to stay alert while the ground unexpectedly shifts under us. In this panel, we ask four previous Independent Fellows to look back on their fellowship research, considering the ways they have been led to unexpected conclusions, new projects, critiques of what they were doing in the first instance, and revisitings of the original site of research to find it changed. How does research evolve, and what kinds of other projects does it lead to? Prasad Shetty (askshetty @rediffmail.com) is an architect and urban planner. He is a founding member of CRIT (Collective Research Initiatives Trust), Mumbai. Parismita Singh (parismitasingh @yahoo.com) is finishing her first graphic novel, due in 2008. Zainab Bawa (zainabbawa @yahoo.com) talks her walks through a world of words on her infrequently updated blog www.xanga.com/citybytes. Madhavi Tangella (manzilechar @yahoo.com) is currently a film student at SRFTI. Vivek Narayanan (vivek @sarai.net) co-coordinates the Independent Fellowship programme for Sarai and writes, mostly poetry and some fiction. He is Consulting Editor for the web-based literary journal, Almost Island and an Associate Editor for the Boston-based international poetry annual, Fulcrum. His first book of poems appeared last year. *Complete Abstracts for the Day* Thurs 6 December Venue: LTG Auditorium, Mandi House 10.00 am – 11.30 Medicine and Modernity Chair: Awadhendra Sharan Gyaltsen Lama Shamans in Gangtok: A Graphic Novel A four part graphic novel exploring the lives of four different shamans in Gangtok, Sikkim. 20 pages of each part with black and white illustrations. Each part is approached with different illustration and narrative styles. Gyaltsen Lama (gyaltsenlama @gmail.com) received his bachelor of fine arts degree in 2000 from the Sir JJ School of Art, Mumbai. He is currently the fine arts teacher at the Tashi Namgyal Academy, Gangtok. Photographs, interview transcripts, pages from the novel and videos for this project are uploaded at: http://www.etattoo7.com/sarai/home.html M.S. Harilal Adopting Modernisation and Negotiating Modernisation: Placing Modern and Traditional Ayurvedic Sectors in the Context of Transformation The study endeavors to analyze responses of the larger transformation of a traditional medical system, namely Ayurveda, to a more affirmative institutional system and a well developed market. The modern forms of Ayurveda seem to be pulled by both pharmaceutical companies and modern practitioners in a direction that flaunts cultural authenticity and tradition as well as scientific efficacy and standardization for its products. It analyses how the stakeholders in this bifurcation - traditional and modern ayurvedic manufacturing, perceive and deal with modernization, which is two fold, both in form and content. The two specific questions that the study intends to explore, based on selected case analysis and necessary ethnographic works, are: one, How do we explain the recent gains made by many firms operating in the 'modern' sector? Two, what are the ways in which the traditional-informal sector has coped with the processes of transformation? To the gist, we are addressing the question of agential relation in the transformation and want to contrast and compare how the two sections deal with the challenge of globalization or negotiate to find their space in the global era. Three rationales may be given for this study: one, the traditional knowledge systems are increasingly become relevant, two, there is a universal concern to addressing community ownership of traditional knowledge and third, it will help us understand the struggle and revival of similarly placed traditional industries. M.S. Harilal (harilalms @gmail.com) is, at present, a doctoral scholar in Economics at the Centre for Development Studies, Thiruvananthapuram. His current areas of interests are the modernization of Indian systems of medicine, the medicinal plants sector, IPR and traditional knowledge. Burton Cleetus Urbanisation, Western Medicine and Modernity: The Rockefeller Foundation in Travancore One of the most important interventions made by the “progressive” state of Travancore which later became part of the state of Kerala, was in the field of health care. The reorganization of the public health department with the aid of the Rockefeller Foundation of the United States was aimed at drafting a coherent health care policy for the state, primarily to cater to the needs of the emerging population in the urban centres. The study seeks to argue that the process of reconstituting the health care policy by the princely state in the early twentieth century was a political project of governance aimed at socio-cultural framing. A comparison between activities of the Rockefeller foundation in addressing the spread of malaria and plague in the early twentieth century with the attempts made by the state of Kerala in tackling similar contagious diseases in recent times would enable to one understand the shifts in the frames of references of the nature of interventions of western medicine over the last century. Burton Cleetus (burtoncleetus @yahoo.co.uk) is a PhD scholar from the Center for Historical Studies, JNU. He did his post graduation and M Phil from JNU. His research on the institutionalization of indigenous medicine in Kerala is an attempt to explore as to how esoteric cultural practices and localized healing techniques were refashioned, revitalized and consequently institutionalized into the broad framework of Ayurveda. 11.00 – 11.30 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Short film on ragging—Listen, Little Man-- by Madhavi Tangella; see also discussion with Shivam Vij on Friday’s programme below. Madhavi Tangella (manzilechar @yahoo.com) worked on Sagar Cinema, a “poor man’s multiplex” for her Sarai Independent Fellowship. She is currently a film student at SRFTI, Kolkata. 11.45 – 12.45 Two Views of the Changing Industrial Landscape (short documentary films & discussion) Chair: Jeebesh Bagchi Ranu Ghosh The Story of a Laid-off Worker’s Resistance to Eviction in Kolkata I have been following the transformation of a productive, half a century old Jay Engineering Works into Kolkata’s South City Project, “Eastern India's largest mixed use real estate development”. Jay Engineering, commonly called Usha Factory, started operations manufacturing electrical consumer durables in the 1950s. The labour force of this reasonably large manufacturing unit was mostly comprised of migrants from Bihar and UP, and refugees from East Pakistan. The Works was closed down, made defunct and the land was handed over to the real estate consortium of five major real estate “magnates” in 2003. The factory buildings were demolished and the construction of the South City Projects comprising three 35-storey and one 28-storey tower, a shopping mall, school, multiplex, club etc, started from February 2004, which included the illegal filling up of one of south Calcutta's largest natural water bodies. The workers of Jay were forced into retirement with little or no compensation and sent into limbo, except for Shambhu Prasad Singh. Shambhu has refused to opt for the meagre handouts and has instead taken his case to court. Against all odds, and withstanding the sustained pressure of the builders, he continues to live in his original quarters, surrounded and dwarfed on all sides by the construction in progress of South City. This brave stand taken by an individual is an example of how such “development” can be challenged. Since the latter half of 2004 I have been documenting in video and still formats, the stages of development at the construction site as the work progressed and the displaced labour force, and out of that, Shambhu Prasad evolved as an outstanding example of the protest against this “development”. I began to follow his everyday life, his improvised strategies of survival in the face of difficult circumstances and his innate zeal to fight for his rights. He has transformed from a character in my film into that of a collaborator, adding a unique dimension to the project. Ranu Ghosh (ghosh.ranu @gmail.com)has worked as a freelance camera person and director in the Indian industry for the past eight years. T. Venkat and Meghna Sukumar Building the Indian Dream: Living and Working Conditions of Migrant Workers on Chennai's IT Corridor Cities in this country have been promoting huge infrastructural projects in their attempt to redefine themselves to the age of globalisation. The 6 lane express way, christened the IT corridor, along with the luxurious industrial, commercial and residential complexes are part of Chennai city’s attempt to create a global image. Thus to the people of the city it is an image, a dream and an opportunity for change and transformation. To the migrant construction workers it is undeniably an opportunity with enormous economic prospects, but in what ways does it transform their lives? What hope does it hold out for them? What image does it create in them? What is their stake in it? Presented through a short documentary film, our research delves into the aspirations of the workers, and their imageries of the creature they are building. It enquires into the change and transformation that this grand project has brought to their lives. T. Venkata Naga Narasimhan, alias Venkat (venkatt2k @gmail.com), is a post graduate in sociology from the University of Madras. He joined as research assistant to Dr. Karen Coelho (an earlier Sarai Independent Fellow and asst professor at Madras Institute of Development Studies) on a project titled “Neighbourhood Associations as Urban Collective Actors: a comparative study of Bangalore and Chennai” in the year 2006-07. 1pm – 2pm Tracking Literatures Chair: Ravikant Rajiv Ranjan Giri Saraswati ki Sarvajanik Duniya, 1900-1920 (The Popular World of the Journal Saraswati, 1900-1920) Rajiv Ranjan Giri has published extensively on the history of Hindi. He co-edits a Hindi journal called Samved. He can be reached at: rajeevgirijnu @rediffmail.com . Gopal Ji Pradhan Hindi mein Uttar Purv (The North-east in Hindi Literature) Gopal Ji Pradhan is a writer and activist. He teaches Hindi at Assam University, Silchar and can be reached at: gopaljeepradhan @rediffmail.com . 2.15 –4.15 Special Panel: Where Does Research Go? Featuring: Zainab Bawa, Parismita Singh, Madhavi Tangella and Prasad Shetty. Discussant: Vivek Narayanan. 4.30 – 6.00 Work In “Progress”: Feature-length video by Debkamal Ganguly (87 minutes) 6.15 – 6.45 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Performance Art: “This Evening Too: From Lal Ded to Abdul Ahad Zargar” by Inder Salim: Space limited to 25 persons only—first come, first serve. 7.15pm – 8pm Chennai Sabha Drama: An Actor’s Story: Solo performance by Pritham Chakravarty (running time: 30 mins) From naresh.rhythm at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 08:34:49 2007 From: naresh.rhythm at gmail.com (Naresh Kumar) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:04:49 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Do spare and come Message-ID: <9e53509a0712041904w490ca61ey4157371f47960bc0@mail.gmail.com> Forward this mail to All dost who r intrested. From oishiksircar at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 08:37:52 2007 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:07:52 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] URGENT - STOP BLOODY TAKE OVER FOR POSCO - PLEASE TAKE ACTION! In-Reply-To: <0af201c836e8$1ac0ba90$5b4de0dc@abc> References: <0af201c836e8$1ac0ba90$5b4de0dc@abc> Message-ID: <62cba67a0712041907s38022c5cna26510a4ba48801e@mail.gmail.com> APOLIGIES FOR CROSS POSTING! * **URGENT ACTION ALERT* Dear All The police and state government of Orissa has headed for a bloody and brutal take over of Dhinkia, one of the villages standing in protest against the POSCO steel project. Over the last few days company and state sponsored goodas have repeatedly attacked the villagers from Gaga Kujang, Nuagaon and Dhinkia, without any protection from the administration. Already more than 200 police personnel have been deployed in the area and last night 7 platoons of police entered Dhinkia. But the people of Dhinkia are continuing to put up a resistence, physically barricading the village. Meanwhile the hired trouble makers are using all coercive tactics and extorting money from the people of Guda Kujang and Nuagaon. The matter has reached a head. We need to make URGENT PHONE CALLS OR SEND FAXES to the Prime Minister, Chief Minister of Orissa, and the President to immediately withdraw the Police from Dhinkia and protect the people who are agitating to save their lives and livelihoods PLEASE SEND FAXES AND CALL on the following numbers PRESIDENT OF INDIA SHRM PRATIBHA PATIL PHONE+91-11-23014930 Ext 4211,4400, 4260 (Secretary of President) +91-11-23013488 Ext 4218 (Personal Secretary of President FAX - 91-11-23017290, +91-11-23017824 NATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION , Faridkot House, Copernicus Marg, New Delhi , PIN 110001 Tel.No. 23384012 Fax No. 23384863 E-Mail: covdnhrc at nic.in, ionhrc at nic.in GOVERNER OF ORISSA Phone 0674-2536111 Fax 2536582. IN SOLIDARITY Madhumita Dutta/ Manshi Asher -- OISHIK SIRCAR Fellow in Reproductive & Sexual Health and Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 From aditya at sarai.net Wed Dec 5 12:20:06 2007 From: aditya at sarai.net (Aditya Nigam) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 06:50:06 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Second statement by Comsky et al. In-Reply-To: References: <014701c83660$5126b270$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Message-ID: <23693.121.247.92.102.1196837404.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> Dear All, Unfortunately, The Hindu has not published it today. Not surprising, is it? Anyway, it is circulating. I am pasting it here again in case it has been missed: "We are taken aback by a widespread reaction to a statement we made with the best of intentions, imploring a restoration of unity among the left forces in India –a reaction that seems to assume that such an appeal to overcome divisions among the left could only amount to supporting a very specific section of the CPM in West Bengal. Our statement did not lend support to the CPM’s actions in Nandigram or its recent economic policies in West Bengal, nor was that our intention. On the contrary, we asserted, in solidarity with its Left critics both inside and outside the party, that we found them tragically wrong. Our hope was that Left critics would view their task as one of putting pressure on the CPM in West Bengal to correct and improve its policies and its habits of governance, rather than dismiss it wholesale as an unredeemable party. We felt that we could hope for such a thing, of such a return to the laudable traditions of a party that once brought extensive land reforms to the state of West Bengal and that had kept communal tensions in abeyance for decades in that state. This, rather than any exculpation of its various recent policies and actions, is what we intended by our hopes for ‘unity’ among the left forces. We realize now that it is perhaps not possible to expect the Left critics of the CPM to overcome the deep disappointment, indeed hostility, they have come to feel towards it, unless the CPM itself takes some initiative against that sense of disappointment. We hope that the CPM in West Bengal will show the largeness of mind to take such an initiative by restoring the morale as well as the welfare of the dispossessed people of Nandigram through the humane governance of their region, so that the left forces can then unite and focus on the more fundamental issues that confront the Left as a whole, in particular focus on the task of providing with just and imaginative measures an alternative to neo-liberal capitalism that has caused so much suffering to the poor and working people in India." Signed Michael Albert, Tariq Ali, Akeel Bilgrami, Victoria Brittain, Noam Chomsky, Charles Derber, Stephen Shalom > Hi, Rama! Where did this statement appear? In The Hindu? > > Tapas > > > On 04/12/2007, V Ramaswamy wrote: >> Dear Friends >> >> Here is the statement signed by Prof Noam Chomsky and others in the wake >> of >> the critique of their earlier statement following the recent events in >> Nandigram. >> >> V Ramaswamy >> Calcutta >> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >> >> ................ >> >> We are taken aback by a widespread reaction to a statement we made with >> the >> best of intentions, imploring a restoration of unity among the left >> forces > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Aditya Nigam Fellow, CSDS, Delhi 011 2394 2199 (O) ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 13:58:41 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 08:28:41 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Peaceful Protest turns Ugly in Islamabad In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0712050028j5f6cb782qcbc5c2ad53b8c2d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0712050028j5f6cb782qcbc5c2ad53b8c2d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0712050028k3386d4e3rfb74df09761ac6cf@mail.gmail.com> 04 Dec 2007, Aabpara, Islamabad Crackdown continues as sham elections approach under "emergency" (Martial Law) pictures http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/2007/12/05/protest-in-pictures-aabpara-islamabad-4th-dec/ account http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/2007/12/05/eyewitness-account-of-the-protest-in-islamabad/ From rs2295 at columbia.edu Wed Dec 5 18:43:15 2007 From: rs2295 at columbia.edu (Rashmi Sadana) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:13:15 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] On research at the I Fellows Workshop Message-ID: A few thoughts on Tuesday’s panel on the practice of research featuring what I thought were four really excellent and inspiring presentations by Sabitha, Yousuf, Rahaab, and Mahmood. It was a great example of how innovative and compelling research (and research that keeps growing in new directions, as Shudda aptly reminded us) comes out of one’s deepest curiosities, however idiosyncratic they may seem at first. I think I can safely say we were all wowed by Yousuf’s postage-size image of a Sufi shrine that turned out to be part of a larger “Hindu”- themed poster, which was then revealed to be an even more “complete” photograph of that poster hanging alongside, and ultimately framed by a Technicolor-array of packaged chips and Haldiram snacks on the wall of an ordinary dukaan. This unveiling of perspectives brilliantly displayed Yousuf’s research subject, his methodology, and his analysis of his material (or theoretical take, if you like) all in one. Throughout his presentation, with all of those jaunty colors and seemingly incongruous images passing us by, I kept thinking, “interdisciplinary” is much too banal a concept to capture this kaleidoscope of an archive! Which led me to a more serious thought: What is this magical space that is created in between disciplines? What does it produce and what are its own constraints? Seems to me in all four cases presented on this panel, “old” objects (be they Malayalee women’s journals, Urdu literary texts, historical photographs or mass-produced religiously themed posters) were being framed in new ways – which is exactly what interdisciplinary research is supposed to allow. And yet, part of this framing, I felt, was the “outer” disciplinary line of questioning that each of them brought to their subjects – whether as poets or performers or filmmakers or archivists. But, at the same time, this panel showed – quite crucially, I believe - that being out of a disciplinary framework does not mean not having a framework or analytical understanding of one’s material or at certain points in the amassing of that material. Which is to say I think the distinction between the practitioner and researcher is a false one, or at least that it should be. So when Mahmood talked about his research into the Dastan Goi literary tradition, and started to lament the fact that he had stopped doing research since he now approached the archive as a performer, and so looked for specific things from it, things that would enhance his next performance, I thought, no, that’s exactly what the best research is – when the need to ask particular questions (the questions of the performer in his case) is motivated by the desire to create a response (a performance, or a poem, or the arrangement of an archive, etc.) to the archive that in turn offers up its own critical perspective in the doing. I guess I see that as the potentially happy marriage between theory and practice. But then I’m an idealist, so… --Rashmi From daisyhasan at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 5 19:29:53 2007 From: daisyhasan at yahoo.co.uk (Daisy Hasan) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:59:53 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Release of Anjum Hasan's novel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <760294.39644.qm@web25412.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Zubaan and Penguin Books India cordially invite you to the launch of Lunatic in my Head by Anjum Hasan on Friday December 7 2007 at 7.00 pm at the Attic, 36 Regal Building (above The Shop) Sansard Marg, New Delhi 110 001 The author will be in conversation with novelist Siddhartha Deb Author of Point of Return and Surface Please join us for tea at 6.30 pm Seating on a first come first served basis RSVP Bharti Taneja (Penguin India) 2649 4401 ext 427 Anita Roy (Zubaan) 2686 4497, 2652 1008 Poetic, funny, tender and reflective, Lunatic in my Head is a moving portrait of a small town. And of three people joined to each other in an intricate web, determined to break out of their small town destinies. --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - the World's favourite mail. From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 21:02:49 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:32:49 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Second statement by Comsky et al. In-Reply-To: <23693.121.247.92.102.1196837404.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> References: <014701c83660$5126b270$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> <23693.121.247.92.102.1196837404.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> Message-ID: <4756C490.80306@gmail.com> I think they owe it to their readers to carry this one, and in the same place as the earlier statement, as they had published that statement. Tapas Aditya Nigam wrote: > Dear All, > Unfortunately, The Hindu has not published it today. Not surprising, is it? > Anyway, it is circulating. From kokopeli at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 23:33:43 2007 From: kokopeli at gmail.com (Sujata & Samantak) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:03:43 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rally on 6 December and relief for Nandigram In-Reply-To: <556b1d6b0712051001x4ac0ffd2qcb4a9bd3ca085a86@mail.gmail.com> References: <556b1d6b0712051001x4ac0ffd2qcb4a9bd3ca085a86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556b1d6b0712051003r5591f6bdkf3c9f4f65d5f8b6@mail.gmail.com> There will be a rally tomorrow, 6 December 2007, starting at 1:00 in the afternoon from Wellington Square and going up to Metro "galli", to protest against communalism (tomorrow being the 15th anniversary of the Babri Masjid demolition), Singur and Nandigram. Please try to be there and spread the news to as many people as possible. On a similar note, relief material is still being collected at the "mancha" at Metro galli (next to the Esplanade metro station, opposite Metro cinema hall). Those who still do not have places to stay in at Nandigram (their houses having been destroyed/taken away) are in urgent need of tarpaulins as the weather begins to turn nastily cold. So, please, if you can contribute some tarpaulins, which will be used to make temporary shelters for the homeless at Nandigram, please come forward. Cash and cheque donations are also very welcome. Please circulate this message widely. Apologies if unwanted and/or found intrusive. Thanks. Samantak Das From cahen.x at levels9.com Thu Dec 6 01:00:31 2007 From: cahen.x at levels9.com (xavier cahen) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:30:31 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 03-12 to 31-12-2007 Message-ID: <47556B93.3030900@levels9.com> pourinfos.org l'actualité du monde de l'art / daily Art news ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Monday 03 December 2007 to Monday, December 31, 2007 (included) ------------------------------------------------------------------- (mostly in french) @ 001 (03/12/2007) Residency: artists Action Center Art Actuel, Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35234-tit-Residence-d-artistes-Centre-d-artistes -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 002 (03/12/2007) Residency: artists, Stills, Edinburgh, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35235-tit--d-artistes-Stills-Edinburgh-Royaume -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 003 (03/12/2007) Meetings: the extraterrestrial hypothesis at John Keel, William Burroughs & Stanley Kubrick, by Pachomius Thiellement, Fresh Theorie, Foundation Ricard, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35248-tit--l-hypothese-extraterrestre-chez-John -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 004 (03/12/2007) Publication: Archee, periodic electronic 11_2007, Montreal, Canada http://pourinfos.org/art-35250-tit--Archee-periodique-electronique-11-2007- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 005 (03/12/2007) Publication: ANTHROPOLOGY, AND CONTEMPORARY ART MUSEUM What links? (ANTHROPOLOGIE, ART CONTEMPORAIN ET MUSEE Quels liens ?) Under the direction of Roger Some and Carine Schutz, Editions l'Harmattan, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35251-tit--ANTHROPOLOGIE-ART-CONTEMPORAIN-ET -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 006 (03/12/2007) Publication: Appareil et intermedialite, Under the direction of Jean-Louis Déotte, Marion Froger, Silvestra Mariniello, Editions l'Harmattan, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35252-tit--Appareil-et-intermedialite-Sous-la -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 007 (03/12/2007) Publication: Variant, ISSUE 31 - Spring 2008, Variant need your support, Glasgow, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35254-tit--Variant-ISSUE-31-Spring-2008-Variant -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 008 (03/12/2007) Publication: # 22, Artes, arte_contemporaneo_internacional , Madrid , Spain. http://pourinfos.org/art-35258-tit-Publiation-n-22-Artes- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 009 (03/12/2007) Publication: catalogue TTrioreau, la box et monograkik Editions, Bourges, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35259-tit--Lancement-du-catalogue-TTrioreau-la-box -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 010 (03/12/2007) Publication: Documents : Some artistic practices of the digital age – Collection 35 art works, Espace Gantner Editions presses du reel, Dijon, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35260-tit--Documents-Quelques-pratiques -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 011 (03/12/2007) Publication: (Sociology of art works)Sociologie des œuvres, Jean-Pierre Esquenazi, Editions Armand Collin, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35261-tit--Sociologie-des-uvres-Jean-Pierre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 012 (03/12/2007) Publication: new DVD d'Olivier Bosson, Editions Videoformes, Clermont-Ferrand, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35262-tit--nouveau-DVD-d-Olivier-Bosson-editions -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 013 (03/12/2007) Publication: Internet : Internet: an earthquake in the culture? (un seisme dans la culture ?) Marc Le Glatin, Edition de l'attribut, Toulouse, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35263-tit--Internet-un-seisme-dans-la-culture- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 014 (03/12/2007) Publication: Michael Dumontier, Marcel Dzama, nieves édition, Zurich, Switzerland. http://pourinfos.org/art-35264-tit--Michael-Dumontier-Marcel-Dzama-nieves -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 015 (03/12/2007) Publication: #39, revue ARCHITECTURES A VIVRE, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35265-tit--N-39-revue-ARCHITECTURES-A-VIVRE-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 016 (03/12/2007) Publication: Inter-action C.L.O.M. (Joël Hubaut) Philippe Boisnard, Editions le clou dans le fer, Reims, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35266-tit--Inter-action-C-L-O-M-Joel-Hubaut- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 017 (03/12/2007) Publication: Becoming a media activism on the Internet between defection and experimentation (Devenir média, l'activisme sur Internet entre défection et expérimentation), Olivier Blondeau - Laurence Allard, Editions Amsterdam, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35267-tit--Devenir-media-l-activisme-sur-Internet -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 018 (03/12/2007) Publication: Guide to the author of visual and graphic works (Guide de l'auteur d'oeuvres plastiques et graphiques), SNAPcgt, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35268-tit--Guide-de-l-auteur-d-oeuvres-plastiques-et -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 019 (03/12/2007) Publication: drifting (La derive) of Corinne Janier, Flip book d'artiste, Edition LENDROIT, Rennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35269-tit--La-derive-de-Corinne-Janier-Flip-book -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 020 (03/12/2007) Publication: The vocal cords, documentation céline duval, Poster d'Artiste, Editions LENDROIT, Rennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35270-tit--Les-cordes-vocales-la-documentation -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 021 (03/12/2007) Publication: Teleologies, Frederic Dumond, Editions de l'Attente, Bordeaux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35271-tit--Teleologies-Fredeic-Dumond-editions-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 022 (03/12/2007) Job: Internship, EUROPEAN SOUND DELTA, Association MU, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35272-tit-Emploi-Stage-EUROPEAN-SOUND-DELTA- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 023 (03/12/2007) Job: coordination - visual arts, Centre Culturel Colombier, Rennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35273-tit--coordinateur-mediateur-en-arts -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 024 (03/12/2007) Job: Internship in communication, Frac Bourgogne, Dijon, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35274-tit--Stage-en-communication-Frac-Bourgogne- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 025 (03/12/2007) Job: press relations for the Biennial of Contemporary Art "Art And Nature", Seine-Saint-Denis, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35276-tit-Offred-emploi-Charge-e-des-relations -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 026 (03/12/2007) Various: what's « la Fraternelle Grapus », Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35278-tit-Divers-Qu-est-ce-que-la-Fraternelle -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 027 (03/12/2007) Publication: The art critic between broadcast and exploration, the International Symposium Max and Iris Stern, proceedings of the symposium held at the Museum of Contemporary Art in Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35279-tit--La-critique-d-art-entre-diffusion-et -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 028 (03/12/2007) Call: fellowship offered to a young person for a cultural project related to the countries of the Mediterranean, Foundation Marc de Montalembert, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35290-tit-s-une-bourse-offerte-a-un-jeune-pour-un -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 029 (03/12/2007) Call: from the Cultural Action of the city of Pontault-Combault, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35291-tit-s-de-la-Direction-de-l-Action-Culturelle -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 030 (03/12/2007) Call: for exhibition, Universites-Univers lies, Bordeaux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35292-tit--Appel-a-projet-exposition -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 031 (03/12/2007) Call: International Poetry Ecritout 2008 - poetry free Quebec "and" lthe Francophony, Quebec, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35293-tit--Concours-international-de-poesie-Ecritout -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 032 (03/12/2007) Call: FORET/FOREST: 8th MANIFESTATION of CHAMP LIBRE, Montréal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35294-tit--FORET-FOREST-8e-MANIFESTATION -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 033 (03/12/2007) Call: ART VIDEO SCREENING, Bio Roxy's Cafe, Orebro, Sweden. http://pourinfos.org/art-35296-tit--ART-VIDEO-SCREENING-Bio-Roxy-s-Cafe- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 034 (03/12/2007) Call: Roland Barthes Prize for the photographic research, Cherbourg, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35297-tit--Prix-Roland-Barthes-pour-la-recherche -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 035 (03/12/2007) Call: for authors, Videoformes, Clermont-Ferrand, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35298-tit--appel-a-auteurs-Videoformes- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 036 (03/12/2007) Call: Exhibition of Christmas - 2007, le MAGASIN – Centre d’Art Contemporain of Grenoble, Grenoble, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35299-tit--de-Noel-2007-le-MAGASIN-Centre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 037 (03/12/2007) Call: Forest Art, Sculpure, Community of Communes du Pays de Tronçais, Cerilly, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35300-tit--Forest-Art-Sculpure-Communaute-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 038 (03/12/2007) Call: 3rd way of fairy, LABo des Fees, Crevoux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35301-tit--3eme-Parcours-des-Fees-LABo-des-Fees- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 039 (03/12/2007) Call: MONOCHROME, Incident.net, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35302-tit--MONOCHROME-Incident-net-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 040 (03/12/2007) Call: Recreacourt festival 08, Association Comme Vous Emoi, Montreuil, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35303-tit--festival-Recreacourt-08-Association -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 041 (03/12/2007) Call: Biennial of the Strange, Ellezelles, Belgium. http://pourinfos.org/art-35304-tit--biennale-de-l-Etrange-Ellezelles- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 042 (03/12/2007) Call: looking for young artists using photography studio, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35305-tit-Appel-a-participaton-recherche-de-jeunes -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 043 (03/12/2007) Call: submissions to its forthcoming show, The Whole World, curated by Ian White,tank.tv, London, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35306-tit-Appel-a-prticipation-submissions-to-its -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 044 (03/12/2007) Call: PROJET POSTAL ART "CHILDREN ABUSE", Valenciennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35307-tit--PROJET-ART-POSTAL-L-ENFANCE-MAILARTEE- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 045 (04/12/2007) Meetings: extensions #10 dynamiques d’ecriture, Tuesday, December 4, 2007, Ensi, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35243-tit--extensions-10-dynamiques-d-ecriture- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 046 (04/12/2007) Meeting: "Stéphane Berard, Portrait of the Artist as Worker" A lecture by Johan Defer, Tuesday, December 4, 2007, Espace arts plastiques de Venissieux, Venissieux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35247-tit--Stephane-Berard-portrait-de-l-artiste -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 047 (04/12/2007) Call: 2008 New York Underground Film Festival, New York, Usa. http://pourinfos.org/art-35309-tit--2008-New-York-Underground-Film-Festival- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 048 (05/12/2007) Meetings : lecture Speculums and speculation, Société Réaliste, Beaux-Arts de Bordeaux, Wednesday, December 5, 2007, Bordeaux, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35239-tit--conference-Speculums-et-speculations- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 049 (05/12/2007) Meetings: Alain Bublex, December 5, 2007, Observatoire des nouveaux médias, Ensad, Paris. http://pourinfos.org/art-35240-tit--Alain-Bublex-mercredi-5-decembre-2007- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 050 (05/12/2007) Meetings: Art, Technology, Culture, Alphabetville # Zinc-Ecm # Leonardo/Olats, on 5 and 6 December 2007, Friche Belle de Mai, Marseille. http://pourinfos.org/art-35241-tit-encontres-Art-Technologie-Culture- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 051 (05/12/2007) Meetings: lecture "words to see "(des mots pour voir), Marie-Claire SELLIER, December 5, 2007, Ecole d'Art de Beauvaisis, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35277-tit--conference-des-mots-pour-voir- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 052 (05/12/2007) Meetings: Portradium at la Java, Wednesday, December 5, 2007, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35282-tit--Portradium-a-la-Java-Mercredi-5 -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 053 (05/12/2007) Various: The House of Ironworkers (La Maison des métallos), cultural property of the City of Paris, is open from November 7, 2007, Paris, France http://pourinfos.org/art-35285-tit-Divers-La-Maison-des-metallos- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 054 (06/12/2007) Meetings: The intimate collection: video art, digital art and Net art ("L'intime collection : art video, art numérique et Net art) Thursday, December 6, 2007, Bnf, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35245-tit--L-intime-collection-art-video-art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 055 (07/12/2007) Meetings: Anselm Kiefer, Friday, December 7, 2007, Auditorium du Louvre, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35178-tit--Anselm-Kiefer-Vendredi-7-decembre-2007- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 056 (07/12/2007) Meetings: Le Louvre invite Anselm Kiefer, in Faces faces / "Frontiers" The art does not disappear totaly, Friday, December 7, 2007, Auditorium du Louvre, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35242-tit--Le-Louvre-invite-Anselm-Kiefer-Faces-a -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 057 (07/12/2007) Publication: Genealogies (Généalogies), Martine Rassineux et François Da Ros, Les Editions Anakatabase, 7-8-9 December 2007,, Salon page 10, Espace Charenton, Paris, Fance. http://pourinfos.org/art-35255-tit-Publiation-Genealogies-Martine-Rassineux -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 058 (08/12/2007) Meeting: Poptronics on stage theater Paris-Villette, Saturday, December 8, 2007, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35246-tit--Poptronics-sur-la-scene-du-theatre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 059 (08/12/2007) Publication: Lisieres #18 Pascal Dusapin, La revue d'art Lisieres rejoint r-diffusion, Strasbourg, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35253-tit--Lisieres-18-Pascal-Dusapin-La-revue -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 060 (10/12/2007) Meetings: radical philosophy conference - art and immaterial labour, radical philosophy conference - art and immaterial labour, January 19, 2008, The Auditorium, Tate Britain, London, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35238-tit--radical-philosophy-conference-art-and -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 061 (11/12/2007) Meeting: Cool conference of Marc Dachy, December 11, 2007, Museum Calbet et Hypertexte, Grisolles,France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35237-tit--Cool-conference-de-Marc-Dachy-Mardi-11 -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 062 (12/12/2007) Meetings: Contemporary Typography, lecture of Hans-Jürg Hunziker, the concept of the Character typographical of Siemens, Wednesday, December 12, 2007, Department of Fine Arts, University of Paris 8, Saint-Denis, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35280-tit--Typographie-contemporaine-Conference-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 063 (12/12/2007) Various: Fred Forest, Acquisition of a work online, Cartier Foundation for Contemporary Ar, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35284-tit-Divers-Fred-Forest-Aquisition-d-une-oeuvre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 064 (12/12/2007) Various: share space in Toulouse, Toulouse, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35287-tit-Divers-partage-de-local-sur-Toulouse- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 065 (13/12/2007) Publication: 4 AM, (natures) 06.07, La Marechalerie - Centre d'art contemporain, Ecole Nationale superieure d'Architecture, Versailles, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35256-tit--4-AM-natures-06-07-La-Marechalerie- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 066 (13/12/2007) Meetings: RELECTURES festival, l'espace Khiasma, Mairie des Lilas, Les Lilas, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35283-tit--festival-RELECTURES-l-espace-Khiasma- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 067 (15/12/2007) Meetings: Maflohe Passedouet, disorders of perception, sensory illusions , Saturday, December 15, 2007, Maison populaire, Montreuil, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35244-tit--Maflohe-Passedouet-Troubles-de-la -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 068 (15/12/2007) Publication: #16, Miami Design Distric, Erasing the edge , Uovo, an independent voice for contemporary art, Torino, Italy. http://pourinfos.org/art-35249-tit--16-Miami-Design-Distric-Erasing-the -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 069 (15/12/2007) Publication: Los flamencos no comen #12 soon, Sumene, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35281-tit--Los-flamencos-no-comen-n-12-paraitra-dans -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 070 (15/12/2007) Call: International Exhibition of painting, Château des Réaux, Chouze sur Loire, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35295-tit--Internationale-de-Peinture-Chateau-des -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 071 (19/12/2007) Various: winners of the 15th edition of Price Videre, Quebec, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35286-tit-Divers-laureats-de-la-15e-edition-des-Prix -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 072 (20/12/2007) Publication: # 9, revue Art Vif, Nice, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35257-tit-Publiation-numero-9-revue-Art-Vif-Nice- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 073 (20/12/2007) Various: Call for subscription 2007, Association Manifestement Peint Vite, Nantes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35289-tit-Divers-Appel-a-souscription-2007- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 074 (20/12/2007) Call: Symposium : The Futures of Space Exploration - An Arts and Humanities, Less Remote, Glasgow, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35308-tit--Symposium-The-Futures-of-Space -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 075 (20/12/2007) Call: Turbulence Commission: "The ShiftSpace Commissions Program", Turbulence, New York, Usa. http://pourinfos.org/art-35310-tit--Turbulence-Commission-The-ShiftSpace -- XAVIER CAHEN -------------- cahen.x at levels9.com Paris France http://www.levels9.com _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From logos.theword at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 01:00:34 2007 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:30:34 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Shreds and Patches - A Solo Shakespearean Performance In-Reply-To: <33bc2ee60712042152l6d14fd6eg97af43b99c5ae7df@mail.gmail.com> References: <33bc2ee60712042152l6d14fd6eg97af43b99c5ae7df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60712042155p248c924eh8c39dc94509a420@mail.gmail.com> A narrator who readers letters from nowhere... voices that speak from everywhere and everywhen... stories from other times, other places... stories that lie deep inside us. do we not have eyes?... what light?... once more, once more... that undiscovered country... to whom should I complain?... stretched metre of an antique song... let be Logos Theatre (In association with easy library) presents *Shreds and Patches* A solo theatre performance by Arka Mukhopadhyay Based on the plays and sonnets of William Shakespeare. A monologue on our lives and times On: Friday, December 14th, 6:30 PM At: Easy Library, 972 H, 1st A Main, ST Bed Layout, 4th Block, Koramangala (near Maharaja Restaurant) (Phone: 41102231,25501499) The event is non-ticketed, but prior registration is required The duration of the performance is one hour This performance tries to look at Shakespeare from the viewpoint of the storytellers of old, communicating the tales through voice, space, physicality and the imagination. Yet it is also a tale of our days – of our darkness and our quest to find meaning. Using fragments from Shakespeare, it looks at our identity, at memory and loss, at love and redemption First performed in April for Shakespeare's birth and death anniversary, the play has since been performed in Pune and Hyderabad. -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is 't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From vivek at sarai.net Thu Dec 6 08:22:27 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 02:52:27 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Friday 7 December -- General Audience Highlights Message-ID: <79705fb50712051852k1a7d117co33bf6b542d9aa294@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Highlights for a general audience tomorrow (Friday 7 December) include the premiere of Pankaj Rishi Kumar's feature-length documentary on women boxers, presentations by Nancy Adajania and Debkamal Ganguly on their current projects, Madhavi Tangella and Shivam Vij on ragging (Madhavi's short documentary, partly inspired by Shivam Vij's seminal Independent Fellowship project) and of course the final open-ended discussion, which in the past has always been very vigorous. Read on for details! And scroll to for detailed abstracts of the entire day's lineup. *Highlights for a General Audience -- Friday December 7, 2007* (LTG Auditorium, Mandi House) 7.00 – 8.30 Punches Ponytails Ringtones: Women Boxers in India A film by Pankaj Rishi Kumar (82 mins) Introduced by Shuddhabrata Sengupta "This is a journey into the science of boxing as practiced by 2 Indian women. From Dec'04 to May'07, I shot with them as they tried to understand their bodies, their undying love for the sport and their constant struggle to realize their dreams. The film unfolds their story." Pankaj Rishi Kumar (kumartalkies at yahoo.com) has been making making documentary films for the last 11 years. His best known films include Kumar Talkies. He showed the first rushes from his Independent Fellowship project on women boxers at the 2005 workshop. 11.00 – 12.15 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Side Effects: Collaborations and Conversations Between Independent Fellows. A documentary film on ragging—Listen, Little Man (28 mins)-- by Madhavi Tangella; discussion and commentary by Shivam Vij, who studied ragging for his Sarai-CSDS Fellowship. Introduced and moderated by Iram Ghufran Madhavi Tangella (manzilechar @yahoo.com) worked on Sagar Cinema, a "poor man's multiplex" for her Sarai Independent Fellowship. She is currently a film student at SRFTI, Kolkata. Shivam Vij (mail @shivamvij.com) is a journalist, blogger, and runs the website stopragging.org . His research on the nature of ragging in hostels for the Independent Fellowship in 2005 led him to being appointed as a consultant to the R.K. Raghavan committee set up by the Supreme Court to recommend measures to curb ragging. His journalistic interests include caste, social mobility, internet censorship, and online communities. 1.45 pm – 3.45 pm Special Presentation: The SARAI-CSDS Associate Fellowships Chair: Monica Narula [Monica Narula (monica @sarai.net) is a media practitioner with a background in filmmaking and English Literature. She is one the co-initiators of Sarai and one of the editors of the Sarai Reader series. She is part of the Raqs Media Collective. She coordinates the media practice projects at Sarai.] Nancy Adajania: A New Journal for the Arts: Prototype Issue, 2007 Although there have been exciting recent developments in the world of Indian art, there is a strong sense that much of it has been happening in the dark, without enough open discussion made widely available to the public. Hoskote and Adajania argue that in order for art to have significance and value beyond a point, it needs to be made in the context of lively discussion and critical debate. Modern India has had a rich history of such critical initiatives, but in the current context there are very few platforms for such engagement; those that do exist confine themselves largely to reporting on events, or more often, to sales figures and scandals, focusing on the life of the studio, the solitary creator, and of economic institutions such as the gallery and the auction house. Both senior art critics in their own right, Hoskote and Adajania propose to make a journal that focuses on actually mobilising and creating a new context for the production of art. Rather than being a public relations exercise for art in India, the journal would be a colloquium across disciplines, regions, traditions and intellectual lineages. It would include, among other forms of writing, analytical essays, tactical accounts, select reviews, and polemical texts. The journal would be interested in developing a perspective of what the proposal calls "a nuanced critical regionalism", which would reject both the "neo-tribalism" of an inward-looking isolationism, as well as an uncritical globalism that lacks anchorage in a specific cultural context. Last but not least, the journal would seek and institute collaborative ventures between artists and public-sphere or civil-society activists. Nancy Adajania (nancyadajania71 at yahoo.co.uk) is a well-known cultural theorist, art critic and independent curator. She is developing this project for the Associate Fellowship with Ranjit Hoskote. Debkamal Ganguly: An Imaginative Text Based on Contemporary Travel Through the "Forests" Described in Bibhuthibhushan's Memoirs [note showing of complete video by Debkamal Ganguly at 4.30 on previous day, Thursday December 6. On the 7th, Ganguly will show excerpts from the video, discuss its making and answer questions.] Sarai generally focusses on urban spaces and the processes of urbanisation. However, a very crucial emerging question in contemporary India is, how are "rural" and forest spaces being transformed in the current context, and what is the relationship of this process to the development of cities? One could look at the question only in terms of contemporary transformations, but another approach would also situate it historically, in relation to accounts of what these non-urban areas used to look like. The project looks precisely at this question, in the context of Eastern India. Debkamal Ganguly is interested in how the idea of "nature" has developed and has been changed by visitors from the city, over several decades, including himself. He seeks to understand "how an otherwise 'underdeveloped' marginalized geographical/cultural space in the immediate west of the Gangetic plains has been entangled in multilayered relationship with the urban consciousness and artistic creativity of Kolkata." 4.00 – 5.30 pm Towards a Future for Independent Research: Interactive Open Discussion All participants. *Complete Abstracts for the Day* Fri Dec 7 Venue: LTG Auditorium, Mandi House 10.00 – 11.00 Proofreading: Identity and Publishing Chair: Mahmood Farooqui Vijay Kumar Pandey Meerut ka Prakasan Udyog (The Publishing Industry in Meerut) The publication industry of Meerut is almost 200 years old. During this period the industry has evolved with time and flourished. The present turnover of the industry is nearly Rs. 200 crore per annum and provides employment to approximately one lakh people. The study aims at identifying the factors contributing to the rapid growth and evolution of this industry in Meerut during past 200 years as well as the problems and challenges before it. It will also look into how the industry has changed with time. Vijay Kumar Pandey (vijaykharsh @yahoo.co.in) has been a journalist for the last five years. He is currently with Amar Ujala. Yoginder Sikand & Naseemur Rahman Islamic Publishing Houses in Delhi This research project focuses on the Muslim publishing industry in Delhi. It examines various aspects of this industry, including content of publications and linkages between authors, publishers and consumers of the literature produced by these publishing houses. It also looks at how the Muslim publishing industry is responding to the various challenges that Muslims in India today see themselves faced with. Naseem ur Rahman (majidee @yahoo.com) is a Ph.D. student at the Jamia Millia Islamia and is presently working with the Markazi Maktaba Islami, a leading Muslim publishing house in Delhi; and Yoginder Sikand, Professor at the Centre for Jawaharlal Nehru Studies, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi. 11.00 – 12.15 (In Upstairs Gallery Space) Side Effects: Collaborations and Conversations Between Independent Fellows. A documentary film on ragging—Listen, Little Man (28 mins)-- by Madhavi Tangella; discussion and commentary by Shivam Vij, who studied ragging for his Sarai-CSDS Fellowship. Introduced and moderated by Iram Ghufran Madhavi Tangella (manzilechar @yahoo.com) worked on Sagar Cinema, a "poor man's multiplex" for her Sarai Independent Fellowship. She is currently a film student at SRFTI, Kolkata. Shivam Vij (mail @shivamvij.com) is a journalist, blogger, and runs the website stopragging.org . His research on the nature of ragging in hostels for the Independent Fellowship in 2005 led him to being appointed as a consultant to the R.K. Raghavan committee set up by the Supreme Court to recommend measures to curb ragging. His journalistic interests include caste, social mobility, internet censorship, and online communities. 11.15 – 12.15 Maps for Lost Cities Chair: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Surojit Sen The Displacement of Prostitutes: A Tale of Two Cities in Two Centuries This paper focuses on a satirical text Bodmaes Jobdo (Wicked Punished) by Prankrishna Dutta in 1869 on the aftermath of 1868 The Contagious Diseases Act XIV. Which the British enforced in April 1869 in order to control flesh trade and prevent the brothel-going soldiers from contracting venereal diseases. The Act made it mandatory for the prostitutes to register their names and undergo medical examination and treatment ( if necessary ). While the police used the legislation as a ploy to harass the prostitutes, their clients also felt axed by the Act. Things came to such a pass that some prostitutes brought the matter to the attention Viceroy Lord Mayo and his wife through a letter (19 July, 1869 ) most probably written by someone on their behalf. The chaotic situation forced a section of prostitutes to leave the Sonagachi red light area of Calcutta for Chandannagar town, then under French rule, and throng the brothel that had existed there since the 1770s. This 200 year old settlement was demolished by some promoters bent on using the land as real estate. The prostitutes living there couldn't resist the onslaught; nor did any organization come to their rescue. I view the event from the standpoint of 'rights' and relate it to the recently proposed amendment to the existing ITPA Act ( 1987 ). Which tends to treat prostitution as criminal offence even as it has not been declared illegal. Without making any provision for their rehabilitation or alternative livelihood, this official move I argue, is going to take away the little space that the 'fallen' women have and marginalize them further. Surojit Sen (surojit369 @yahoo.co.in) does research for documentary films, writes book reviews, short prose pieces on literature and scripts for telefilms (in Bengali). He renders editorial service and is now working on his first Bengali novel named City Edition. Mohit K. Ray Heritage Ponds of Kolkata: A Contemporary History Kolkata is a city of ponds. Job Charnok, the first well-known British merchant, set up his office by the side of a pond called Lal Dighi, which still exists to remind of this city's colonial past. There are many ponds like this with rich historical linkages. Many streets and places of Kolkata are named after ponds. Even after the onslaught of the real estate sector, the city has more than 3500 ponds. The significance of these urban waterbodies as water resources is being appreciated now as never before. These ponds form a part of the cultural history of the city. Once, it was the place where community people met during bathing; Bengali literature has so many narratives about the ghats of these ponds. The fields by the side of some ponds provide space to hold fairs. However, there is still no proper documentation of such an important city heritage. This study will add to the urban cultural history where the city ponds are not mere past heroes, but active agents of a thriving present. Mohit Ray (mrsg @vsnl.com), the principal researcher, is an environmental professional who has a PhD in Chemical Engineering and works for environmental rights. 12.30 – 1.30 Rethinking the Social Chair: Vivek Narayanan Santana Issar and Aditi Saraf Rethinking Animal Activism in an Urban Context Human-animal relationships have been historically constituted in complex and intimate ways along the economic, the affective, the cultural and ritual, and the metaphoric. As these relationships have receded into an irretrievable past, it has been suggested that animals have been reconfigured in the urban imagination; as household pets, as objects of wonder in zoos and circuses, and as (Kentucky or not) fried chicken. Our question is - does this driving of a wedge between human lives and those of animals inform dominant notions of 'animal welfare'? We study the relationship between the theory of the human-animal interaction in a post-industrial urban context, and the practices of animal rescue and welfare, in order to understand how, and to what extent, each is shaped by the other. All this in the particular context of our very own urban jungle – Delhi. Both Santana Issar (santanaissar @gmail.com) and Aditi Saraf (aditisrf @gmail.com) are graduates of St Stephen's College. Santana is a filmmaker, Aditi works as a research associate at the National Knowledge Commission. Arnab Chatterjee Beyond Private and Public: New Perspectives on Personal and Personalist Social Work In the first part of my presentation ( in the final version of the paper too) I shall dwell on the importance of the public/private divide in modern social theory and ask, is the public/private divide the main unresolved dilemma that haunts the sign of our own times ? How does the personal interrupt and contaminate the above binary and wherefrom our engagement could temporarily begin? An impersonal public sphere, threatened by the deceptive nature of the personal, was founded to ground political modernity and was extended to cover such remote questions of personal charity which –some like Hegel sought to replace by state related public assistance or welfare. This normalizing restraint was energized even at the level of speech, but through the instance of personal attacks, the repressed narrative of the personal seemed to recur at the cost of our unease—a political pornography of sorts. An excavation informed us--behind the masked ordeal of innocent impersonality, there lurks the obscene narratives of manipulation, lying, backstabbing, blackmailing, fraud, betrayal, malice by which persons govern each other. Now, all proposed resolutions, located within the impasse, have they worked? I discuss the Gandhian attempt and discuss the dictatorial desire. The failure to integrate the public and the private until it vanishes in the terrorized unity of the person/al -- inaugurates—in a sense-- and urges us to recover the suppressed history of the personal and subsequently a theory of the personal with its roots in the German version of personalism. Finally, does the category personal, through the sieve of personalist social work, solve the public/private problem posed in the beginning, or compound the problem further? How, despite the personalist indeterminacy and irreducibility of the person, a personalist ethics could be found will be addressed in this section; I'll spend a considerable five minutes on the above and end by reflecting on my most recent work not covered in SARAI postings. Arnab Chatterjee (apnawritings @yahoo.co.in) is Doctoral Fellow at the department of Philosophy, Jadavpur University, Kolkata and on the visiting faculty of Ethics and Human Values at the Bengal Institute of Technology, Kolkata. 1.45 pm – 3.45 pm Special Presentation: The SARAI-CSDS Associate Fellowships Chair: Monica Narula [Monica Narula (monica @sarai.net) is a media practitioner with a background in filmmaking and English Literature. She is one the co-initiators of Sarai and one of the editors of the Sarai Reader series. She is part of the Raqs Media Collective. She coordinates the media practice projects at Sarai.] Nancy Adajania: A New Journal for the Arts: Prototype Issue, 2007 Although there have been exciting recent developments in the world of Indian art, there is a strong sense that much of it has been happening in the dark, without enough open discussion made widely available to the public. Hoskote and Adajania argue that in order for art to have significance and value beyond a point, it needs to be made in the context of lively discussion and critical debate. Modern India has had a rich history of such critical initiatives, but in the current context there are very few platforms for such engagement; those that do exist confine themselves largely to reporting on events, or more often, to sales figures and scandals, focusing on the life of the studio, the solitary creator, and of economic institutions such as the gallery and the auction house. Both senior art critics in their own right, Hoskote and Adajania propose to make a journal that focuses on actually mobilising and creating a new context for the production of art. Rather than being a public relations exercise for art in India, the journal would be a colloquium across disciplines, regions, traditions and intellectual lineages. It would include, among other forms of writing, analytical essays, tactical accounts, select reviews, and polemical texts. The journal would be interested in developing a perspective of what the proposal calls "a nuanced critical regionalism", which would reject both the "neo-tribalism" of an inward-looking isolationism, as well as an uncritical globalism that lacks anchorage in a specific cultural context. Last but not least, the journal would seek and institute collaborative ventures between artists and public-sphere or civil-society activists. Nancy Adajania (nancyadajania71 at yahoo.co.uk) is a well-known cultural theorist, art critic and independent curator. She is developing this project for the Associate Fellowship with Ranjit Hoskote. Debkamal Ganguly: An Imaginative Text Based on Contemporary Travel Through the "Forests" Described in Bibhuthibhushan's Memoirs [note showing of complete video by Debkamal Ganguly at 4.30 on previous day, Thursday December 6. On the 7th, Ganguly will show excerpts from the video, discuss its making and answer questions.] Sarai generally focusses on urban spaces and the processes of urbanisation. However, a very crucial emerging question in contemporary India is, how are "rural" and forest spaces being transformed in the current context, and what is the relationship of this process to the development of cities? One could look at the question only in terms of contemporary transformations, but another approach would also situate it historically, in relation to accounts of what these non-urban areas used to look like. The project looks precisely at this question, in the context of Eastern India. Debkamal Ganguly is interested in how the idea of "nature" has developed and has been changed by visitors from the city, over several decades, including himself. He seeks to understand "how an otherwise 'underdeveloped' marginalized geographical/cultural space in the immediate west of the Gangetic plains has been entangled in multilayered relationship with the urban consciousness and artistic creativity of Kolkata." 4.00 – 5.30 pm Towards a Future for Independent Research: Interactive Open Discussion All participants. 7.00 – 8.30 Punches Ponytails Ringtones: Women Boxers in India A film by Pankaj Rishi Kumar (82 mins) Introduced by Shuddhabrata Sengupta "This is a journey into the science of boxing as practiced by 2 Indian women. From Dec'04 to May'07, I shot with them as they tried to understand their bodies, their undying love for the sport and their constant struggle to realize their dreams. The film unfolds their story." Pankaj Rishi Kumar (kumartalkies at yahoo.com) has been making making documentary films for the last 11 years. His best known films include Kumar Talkies. He showed the first rushes from his Independent Fellowship project on women boxers at the 2005 workshop. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 10:11:21 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 04:41:21 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu Protests in Malaysia Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712052041g6df4eaaewed3dc8df62b092b8@mail.gmail.com> http://friskodude.blogspot.com/2007/11/hindu-protests-in-malaysia.html From tetranew at sarai.net Thu Dec 6 11:50:21 2007 From: tetranew at sarai.net (tetranew at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 06:20:21 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Test Mail Please ignore Message-ID: <54201.122.160.8.206.1196922016.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> This is test mail, please ignore Thanks This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Thu Dec 6 11:55:08 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 06:25:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Tarun Vijay on Malaysia Message-ID: <586742.87154.qm@web8410.mail.in.yahoo.com> Intolerant Malaysia, tolerant faith? Tarun Vijay When Hindus gathered courage and protested in an unprecedented solidarity on November 26 in Kuala Lumpur, they were crushed brutally by the Malay police using chemicals in the water cannons. None of those who had put up a united front against a cartoon created in Denmark felt anything bad or condemnable in the injustices meted out to the Hindus in an Islamic country. When it's a question of Hindus getting unfair treatment in a Muslim majority region, the 'civil, sophisticated and articulate' Muslim intellectuals take refuge in the statement that it's a matter concerning a foreign country. But when it's a question regarding a cartoon or a fatwa for beheading a writer, they say -we are a global Ummah, anything happening anywhere to Muslims is our common concern! All big lies and a bigger hypocrisy traded in the name of a religion. This year Diwali was not celebrated openly by Malaysian Hindus in protest against the demolition of one of their most revered shrines, the hundred-year-old Maha Mariamman temple in Padang Jawa. In the last fifteen years, hundreds of Hindu temples have been demolished and the number of forcible conversions and unfair treatment on religious grounds has been constantly increasing. The tragic case of Revathi was just a recent one. Moorthy Maniam was a Malaysian Hindu hero. After he died, a group of Muslims claimed he'd made a deathbed conversion. Despite his widow's protests, the Sharia courts declared that he should be buried as a Muslim. “They used Moorthy to show that in this country, Islam is supreme", complained his lawyer. In the 1980s, Malaysia's Sharia courts were given equal power to the civil courts, creating two parallel legal systems. But while the Sharia courts are constantly trying to extend their authority, secular courts are reluctant to challenge them. Malaysia which tries to woo Indian tourists with an aggressive media campaign claiming-it's a 'truly Asian' destination, has become a hotbed of Islamic intolerance and barbarities on non-Muslims. It has sixty per cent Malay Muslim population with Chinese, mostly Buddhists, comprising twenty-five per cent. Malays of Indian origin constitute about eight per cent and Tamil Hindus are ninety per cent amongst the Indian origin population. There is a fair number of Indian Muslims too. Indian Malays were taken there by the British as plantation workers in the late nineteenth century and have now become an inseparable part of Malay life. In fact, from the second century to the 14th century, Malay Peninsula has seen Hindu kingdoms and a way of life beautifully expressed in arts, culture, language and Shaivite values. Sanskrit's influence over their language is visible all over, yet the Malay Muslims choose to express their affinity with the Arabs and deny their ancestral heritage. Politically, Indian-origin Malays follow the Malaysian Indian Congress (MIC), established in 1946 as an instrument of independence from the British rule. Malaysia, freed in 1957, remained a practising pluralistic society till Islamic fundamentalism grew in the last two decades bringing Arab money and intolerance with it. Now it has parallel Islamic courts, functioning along with the civil ones, which are obviously more influential. Malay Hindus have their leader in Datuk Seri Samy Vellu, president of the MIC and a minister in the14-party coalition government who mustered courage to protest against temple demolitions by declaring a 'private' Diwali this year. However, instead of being supported by the country’s Muslim intelligentsia, he was booed, and in a rally addressed by Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, people demanded his ouster from the cabinet as a 'trouble maker'. Hindus seems to be losing hope on all fronts and are making last-ditch efforts to attract attention by any which way to their sorry state of affairs. An umbrella organisation of thirty Hindu NGOs has been formed under the banner of Hindu Rights Action Force or HINDRAF that had called for the successful demonstration on November 26. Earlier a court had banned the rally – but HINDRAF workers – gathered in an unprecedented number – twenty thousand by a modest count –defied the ban and had their voice heard throughout the world. A nation, which has seen centuries of Hindu influence nurturing its socio-cultural milieu, suddenly turned against her own people when Arab-Islamic influence grew, resulting in the dispossession of minority rights. It has tried now to completely eradicate its Hindu history being taught in the schools, including the descriptions regarding ancient Ganga Negara (2nd to 11th century), Langka Asuka(2nd to 14th century) and Sri Vijaya empire(3rd to 14th century) in different parts of the earlier greater Malay Peninsula. It's a reflection of India's secular government that the Malay Hindus of Indian origin chose to knock at the British doors, strangely petitioning the British government, Malaysia's former colonial ruler, to pay two million dollars each to every Indian-origin Malay as compensation for 'putting them in a situation of darkness and exploitation' which was a result of bringing their ancestors as indentured labourers a century before. They are discriminated on religious grounds and economic opportunities are not available to them. "Over the years Indians have been marginalised in this country and we now want the same rights as enjoyed by other communities," M. Kulasegaran, opposition lawmaker with the Democratic Action Party (DAP), told the media. "This gathering is unprecedented, this is a community that can no longer tolerate discrimination." said HINDRAF leader P. Uthayakumar. The demonstrators had gathered at Batu Caves Hindu temple and many of them carried posters of Mahatma Gandhi. But, sadly, there was no murmur amongst the Indian authorities in Delhi or in their High Commission in Kuala Lumpur about it. More on: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Columnists/Tarun_Vijay/The_Right_View/Intolerant_Malaysia_tolerant_faith/articleshow/msid-2577230,curpg-2.cms Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:15:48 2007 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 06:45:48 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956 - Legal Document No 140 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0712052245w34827defg5024615bce1465c4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Fascinating. But exactly what is this in aid of? best Aarti On Dec 4, 2007 11:42 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > *The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956* > Legal Document No 140 > *(Extract)* > > We, the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having solemnly > resolved, > in pursuance of accession of this State to > India which took place on the twenty-sixth day of October, 1947, to > further > define the existing relationship of the State with the Union of India as > an > integral part thereof, and to secure to ourselves. > > *JUSTICE*, social, economic and political; > *LIBERTY* of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; EQUALITY of > status and of opportunity; and to promote among us all; > *FRATERNITY*, assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity of the > Nation; > > *IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY* This seventeenth day of November, 1956 do > Hereby Adopt Enact and Give to ourselves this constitution. > > *PART I* > *PRELIMINARY* > > 1. (1) this Constitution may be called the Constitution of Jammu and > Kashmir. > > (2) This section and sections 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 158 shall come into > force > et once and the remaining provisions of this constitution shall come into > force on the twenty-sixth day of January, 1957, which day is referred to > in > this Constitution as the commencement of this Constitution. > > 2. (I) In this Constitution, unless the context other-wise > requires. > > (a) "Constitution of India" means the Constitu-tion of India as applicable > in relation to this State. > > (b) "existing law" means any law, ordinance, order bye-law, rule > notification; or regulation based, made or issued before the commence-ment > of this Constitution by the Legislature or other competent authority or > person hav-ing power to pass. make or issue such law, ordinance, order > bye-law rule, notification or regulation; > > (c) "Part" means a part of this Constitution; > > (d) "Schedule" means a schedule to this Constitution; and > > (e) "taxation" includes the imposition of any tax or impost, whether > general > or local or special, and "tax" shall be construed accordingly. > > (2) Any reference in this Constitution to Acts or laws of the State > Legislature shall be construed as in-cluding a reference to an Ordianance > made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > *PART II* > *THE STATE* > > (3) The State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the > Union of India. > > (4) The territory of the State shall comprise all the territories which on > the fifteenth day of August, 1947, were under the sovereignty or > suzerainty > of the Ruler of the State. > > (5) The executive and legislative power of the State extends to all > matters > except those with respect to which Parliament has power to make laws for > the > State under the provisions of the Constitution of India. > > *PART III* > *PERMANENT RESIDENTS* > > (6) (l) Every person who is, or is deemed to be, a citizen of India under > the provisions of the Constitution of India shall be a permanent resident > of > the State, if on the fourteenth day of May, 1954. > > (a) he was a State subject of class I or of class II: or > > (b) having lawfully acquired immovable pro-perty in the State, he has been > ordinarily resident in the State for not less than ten years prior to that > date. > > (2) Any person who, before the fourteenth day of May, 1954 was a State > subject of Class I or of Class II and who, having migrated after the first > day of March, 1947, to the territory -now included in Pakistan, returns to > the State under a permit for resettlement in the State or for permanent > return issued by or under the authority of any law made by the State > Legislature shall on such return be a permanent resident of the State. > > (3) In this section, the expression "State subject of Class I or of Class > II" shall have the same -meaning as the State Notification No I-L/84 dated > the twentieth April. '1927, read with State Notification No 13/L dated the > twenty- seventh June, 1932. > > 7. Unless the context otherwise requires, all referen-ces in any existing > law to hereditary State subject or to State subject of class I or of Class > II or of class III shall be construed as references to perma-nent > residents > of the State. > > 8. Nothing in foregoing provisions of this part shall derogate from the > power of the State legislature to make any law defining the classes the > persons who are, or shall be permanent residents of the State. > > 9. A Bill marking provision for any of the following matters, namely. > > (a) defining or altering the definition of, the classes of persons who > are, > or shall be, per-manent residents of the State; > > (b) conferring on permanent residents any special rights or privileges; > > (c) regulating or modifying any special rights or privileges enjoyed by > permanent residents; > shall be deemed to be passed by either House of the Legislature only if It > is passed by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total > membership > of that House. > > 10. The permanent residents of the State shall have all the rights > guaranteed to them under the Constitution of India. > > *PART IV* > *DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF STATE POLICY* > > 11. In this part, unless the context otherwise requires, the State > includes > the Government and the Legis-lature of the State and all local or other > authori-ties within the territory of the State or under the control of the > Government of the State. > > 12. The provisions contained in this Part shall not be enforceable by any > court, but the principles therein laid down are nevertheless fundamental > in > the governance of the State and it shall be the duty of the State to apply > these principles in making laws. > > 13. The prime object of the State consistent with the ideals and > objectives > of the freedom movement envisaged in "New Kashmir" shall be the pro-motion > of the welfare of the mass of the people by establishing and preserving a > socialist order of society wherein all exploitation of man has been > abolished and wherein justice-social, economic and political-shall inform > all the institutions of natio-nal life. > > 14. Consistently with the objectives outlined in the foregoing section, > the > State shall develop in a planed manner the productive forces of the > coun-try > with a view to enriching the material and cul-tural life of the people and > foster and protect. > > (a) the public sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by the > State; > > (b) the co-operative sector where the means of > production are co-operatively owned by indi-viduals or groups of > individuals; and > > (c) the private sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by an > individual or a corpora-tion employing labour, provided that the operation > of this sector is not allowed to result in the concentration of wealth or > of > the means of production to the common detriment. > > 15. The State shall endeavour to organise and develop agriculture and > animal > husbandry by bringing to the aid of the cultivator tile benefits of modern > and scientific research and techniques so as to ensure a speedy > improvement > in the standard of living as also the prosperity of the rural masses. > > 16. The State shall take steps to organise village panchayats and endow > them > with such powers and authority as may be necessary to enable them to > function as units of self-government. > > 17. The State shall, in order to rehabilitate, guide and promote the > renowned crafts and cottage indus-tries of the State, initiate and execute > well consi-dered programmes for refining and modernising techniques and > modes of production, including the employment of cheap power so that > unnece-ssary drudgery and toil of the workers are elimi-nated and the > artistic value of the products en-hanced, while Else fullest scope is > provided for the encouragement and development of individual talent and > initiative. > > 18. The State shall lake steps to separate the judiciary from the > executive > in the public-services, and shall seek to secure a judicial system which > is > humane, cheap, certain, objective and impartial, whereby justice shall be > done and shall be seen to be done and shall further strive to ensure > efficiency, im-partiality and incorruptibility of its various organs of > justice, administration and public utility. > > 19. The State shall, within the limits of its economic capacity and > development, make effective provi-sion for securing: > > (a) that all permanent residents, man and women equally, have the right to > work, that is, the right to receive guaranteed work with pay-ment for > labour > in accordance with its quan-tity and quality subject to a basic minimum > and > maximum wage established by law; > > (b) that the health and strength of workers, men and women and the tender > age of children are not abused and that permanent residents are not forced > by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, age or > strength; > > (c) that all workers, agricultural or otherwise have reasonable, just > and > humane conditions of work with full enjoyment of leisure and social and > cultural opportunities, and > > (d) that all permanent residents have adequate maintenance in old age as > well as in the event of sickness, disablement unemployment and other cases > of undeserved want by providing social insurance, medical aid, hospitals, > sana-toria and health resorts at State expense. > > 20. The State shall endeavour: > > (a) to secure to every permanent resident the right to free education upto > the University standard; > > (b) to provide, within a period often years from the commencement of this > constitution, com-pulsory education for all children until they complete > the > age of fourteen years; and > > (c) to ensure to all workers and employees ade-quate facilities for adult > education and part -time technical, professional and vocational courses. > > 21. The State shall strive to secure: > > (a) to all children the right to happy childhood with adequate medical > care > and attention; and > > (b) to all children and youth equal opportunities in education and > employment, protection against exploitation, and against moral or material > abandonment. > > 22. The State shall endeavour to secure to all women: > > (a) the right to equal pay for equal work; > > (b) the right to maternity benefits as well as ade-quate medical care in > all > employments; > > (c) the right reasonable maintenance, extending to cases of married women > who have been divorced or abandoned; > > (d) the right to full equality in all social, educa-tional, political and > legal matters; and > > (e) special protection against discourtesy, defama-tion, hoolganism and > other forms of miscon-duct. > > 23. The State shall guarantee to the socially and edu-cationally backward > sections of the people special care in the promotion of their educational, > mate rial and cultural interests and protection against social injustice. > > 24. The State shall make every effort to safeguard and promote the health > of > the people by advancing public hygiene and by prevention of disease > through > sanitation, pest and vermin control, propaganda and other measures, and by > ensuring widespread, efficient and free medical services throughout the > State and, with particular emphasis, in its remote and backward regions. > > 25. The State shall combat ignorance, superstition, fanaticism, > communialism, racialism, cultural > backwardness and shall seek to foster brotherhood and equality among all > communities under the aegis of a secular State. > > *PART V* > *THE EXECUTIVE* > *THE SADAR-I-RIYASAT* > > 26. (1) The Head of the State shall be designated as the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > (2) The executive power of the State shall be vested in the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > and shall be exercised by him either directly or through officers > subordinate to him in accordance with this Constitution. > > (3) Nothing in this Section shall: > > (a) be deemed to transfer to the Sadar-i--Riyasat any functions conferred > by > any existing law on any other authority; or > > (b) prevent the State legislature from confer-ring by law functions on any > authority subordinate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > 27. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be the person who for the time being is > recognised by the President as such: > Provided that no person shall be so recognised unless he: > > (a) is a permanent resident of the state; > (b) is not less than twenty-five years of age; and > (c) has been elected as Sadar-i-Riyasat by a majority of the total > membership of the Legislative Assembly in the manner set out in the First > Schedule. > > 28. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office during the pleasure of the > President. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may, be writing under his hand addressed to the > President, resign his office. > > (3) Subject to the foregoing provision of this section, the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > shall hold office for a term of five years from the date on which he > enters > upon his office: > > Provided that he shall notwithstanding the expiration of his term, > continue > to hold office until his successor enters upon his offlee. > > 29. A person who holds or has held office as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, > subject > to the other provisions of this Constitution, be eligible for reselection > to > that office. > > 30. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be a member of either House of > Legislature and if a member of either House be elected and recognised as > Sadar-i-Riyasat, he shall be deemed to have vacated his seat in the House > on > the date on which he enters upon his office as Sadar-I-Riyasat. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not hold any other office of profit. > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be entitled to such emoluments, allowances > and > privileges as are specified in the second schedule. > > (4) The emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be > diminished during his term of office. > > 31. The Sadar-i-Riyasat and every person acting as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, > before entering upon his office, make and subscribe in the presence of the > Chief Justice of the High Court, or in his absence, the senior-most judge > of > the High Court available, in an oath or affirmation in the following form > that is to sayed "I, A. B., do swear in the name of God that I will > faithfully discharge the functions of the Sadar-I-Riyasat of Jammu and > Kashmir and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect and defend > the > Constitution and the law and that I will devote myself to the service and > well being of the people of State." > > 32. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be removed from his office by the President if > an address by the Legis-lative Assembly supported by a majority of not > less > than two-thirds of its total membership is presented to the president > praying for such removal on the ground of violation of the Constitution. > > 33. When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by reason > of > his death, resignation or removal or when the Sadar-i-Riyasat is unable to > discharge his functions owing to absence, illness or or any other cause, > the > functions of the office shall, until the assumption of office by a newly > elected Sadar-i-Riyasat or the resumption of duties by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > as the case may be, dis-charged by such person as the President may on the > recommendation of the Council of Ministers of the State, recognise as the > acting Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > 34. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall have the power to grant pardons, reprieves, > respites or remissions of punish-ment or to suspend, remit or commute the > sentence of any person convicted of any offense against any law relating > to > a matter to which the executive power of the State extends. > > *THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS* > > 35. (1) There shall be a council of Ministers with the Prime Minister at > the > head to aid and advise the Sadar-i-Riyasat in the exercise of his > functions. > > All functions of the Sadar-i-Riyasat except those under sections 36, 38 > and > 92 shall be exercised by him only on the advice of the Council of > Ministers. > > (3) The question whether any, and if so what, advice was tendered by > Ministers to the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be inquired into in any court. > > 36. The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and the > other Ministers shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the advice of > The Prime Minister. > > 37. (1) The Council of Ministers shall be collectively responsible to the > Legislative Assembly. > > (2) A Minister who for any period of six conse-cutive months is not a > member > of either House of Legislature shall upon the expiry of that period cease > to > be a Minister. > > 38. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may on the advice of the Prime Minister appoint > from > amongst the members of either House of Legislature such number of Deputy > Ministers as may be necessary. > > 39. The Ministers and the [Deputy Ministers shall hold office during the > pleasure of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > 40. Before a Minister or a Deputy Minister enters upon lids office, the > Sadar-i-Riyasat or, in his absence, any person authorised by him, shall > administer to the Minister or the Deputy Minister to oaths of office and > of > secrecy according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > Schedule. > > 41. The salaries and allowances of Ministers and Deputy Ministers shall be > such as the Legislature relay from time to time by law determine and, > until > so determined, shall be such as are payable respectively to the Ministers > and the Deputy Ministers under the Jammu and Kashmir Minister s Salaries > Act, 1956 (Act VI of 1956) the Jammu and Kashmir Minister's Travelling > Allowances Rules for the time being in force, and the Jaminu and Kashmir > Deputy Ministers Salaries and Allowances Act. S. 2010 (Act VIII of S.2010) > > *THE ADVOCATE GENERAL* > > 42. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall appoint a person who is qualified to be > appointed a Judge of the High Court, to be Advocate General for the State. > > (2) It shall be the duty of the Advocate General to give advice to the > Government upon such legal matters and to perform such other duties of a > legal character, as may from time to time be referred or assigned to him > by > the Govern-ment, and to discharge the functions conferred on him by or > under > this Constitution or any other law for the time being in force. > > (3) In the performance of his duties, the Advocate General shall have the > right of audience in all courts in the State. > > (4) The Advocate General shall hold office during the pleasure of the > Sadar-i-Riyasat and receive such remuneration as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may > determine. > > *CONDUCT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS* > > 43. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall make rules for the more > convenient transaction of the business of the > Government of the State and for the allocation > among Ministers of the said business. > > 44. It shall be the duty of the Prime Minister > > (a) to communicate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat all decisions of the council of > Ministers relating to the administration of the affairs of the State and > proposals for legislation; > > (b) to furnish such information relating to the administration of the > affairs of the State and proposals for legislation as the Sadar-i-Riyasat > may call for; and > > (c) if the Sadar-i-Riyasat so rqeuires to submit for the consideration of > the Council of Ministers any matter on which a decision has been taken by > a > Minister but which has not been considered by the Council. > > 45. (1) All executive action of the Government shall be expressed to be > taken in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat of the Jammu and Kashmir. > > (2) Orders and other instruments made and executed in the name of the > Sadar-i-Riyasat or of the Government of Jammu and Kashmir shall be > authenticated in such manner as may be specified in the rules to be made > be > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and the validity of an order or instrument which is > so > authenticated shall not be called in question on the ground that it is not > an order or instrument made or executed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat or as the > case may be, by the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.** > > *PART VI* > *THE STATE LEGISLATIVE*** > > *COMPOSITION OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > 46. There shall be Legislature for the State which shall consist of the > Sadar-i-Riyasat and two Houses be known respectively as the Legislative > Assembly and the Legislative Council. > > 47. (1) The Legislative Assembly shall consist of one hundred members > chosen > by direct election from territorial constituencies in the State; > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, if he is of opinion that women are > not adequately represented in the Assembly nominate not more than two > women > to be members thereof. > > (2) For the purposes of sub-section (I), the State shall be divided into > territorial constituencies in such a manner that the ratio between the > population of each constituency and the number of seats allotted to it > shall, so far as practicable, be the same throughout the State. > Explanation: > In this sub-section, the express-ion "Population' means the population as > ascertained at the last preceding census of which the relevant figures > have > been published. > > (3) Upon the completion of each census, the number, extent and boundaries > of > the territor-ial constituencies shall be readjusted by such authority and > in > such manner as the Legislature may be law determine: > Provided that such readjustment shall not affect representation in the > Legislative Assemb until the disolution of the then exist-ing Assembly. > > 48. Notwithstanding anything contained in section 47, until the area of > the > State under the occuptions of Pakistan ceases to so occupied and the > people > residing in that area elect their representatives > > (a) twenty-five seats in the Legislative Assembly shall remain vacant and > shall not be taken into account for reckoning the total member-ship of the > Assembly; and the said area shall be excluded in delimiting the > territorial > Constituencies Under Section 47. > > 49. (I) There shall be reserved in the Lagislative Assembly for the > Scheduled Castes in the State a number of seats which shall bear, as > nearly > as may be, the same proportion to the total number of seats in the > Assembly > as the popu-lation of the Scheduled Castes bears to the population of the > State. > > Explanation: In this sub-section: > > (a) "population" has the same meaning as in sub-section (2) of section 47; > and > (b) "Scheduled Castes" means the caste, races or tribes or part of, or > groups within castes, races or tribes which are for the purposes of the > Constitution of India deemed to be Scheduled Casts in relation to the > State > under the pro-visions of article 341 of that Constitution. > > (2) The provisions of sub-section (1) shall cease to have effect on the > expiration of a period of five years from the commencement of this > Constitution: > > Provided that such cesser shall not affect any representation in the > Legislative Assembly until the dissolution of the then existing Assembly: > > 50. (1) The Legislative Council shall consist of thirty six members, > chosen > in the manner provided in this section. > > (2) Eleven members shall be elected by the men hers of the Legislative > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of Kashmir > and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > (3) Eleven members shall be elected by the mem-bers of the Legislative > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of Jammu > and > are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > Provided that of the members so elected, at least one shall be a resident > of > Doda District and at least one shall be a resident of Poonch District. > > (4) One member shall be elected by each of the following electorates, > namely > > (a) the members of municipal council, town area committees and notified > area > com-mittees in the Province of Kashmir; > > (b) the members of municipal council, town area committees, and notified > area committees in the Province of Jammu; > > (c) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged in > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the > Province of Kashmir; and > > (d) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged in > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the > Province of Jammu. > > (5) Two members shall be elected by each of the following electorates, > namely: > > (a) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > Province of Kashmir as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify; and > > (b) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > Province of Jammu as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > (6) Six members shall be nominated by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, not more than > three of whom shall be person belonging to any of the socially or > economically backward classes in the State, and the others shall be > persons > having special knowledge or practical experi-ence in respect of matters > such > as literature, science, art, co-operative movement and social service. > > (7) Elections under sub-section (2) and (3) shall be held in accordance > with > the system of pro-portional representation by means of the single > transferable vote. > > *GENERAL PROVISIONS* > > 51. A person shall not be qualified to be chosen to fill a seat in the > Legislature unless he: > > (a) is a permanent resident of the State; > > (b) is, in the case of a seat in the Legislative Assembly, not less than > twenty-five years of age, and in the case of a seat in the Legisla-tive > Council, not less than thirty years of age; and > > (c) possesses such other qualifications as may be prescribed in that > behalf > by or under any law made by Legislature. > > 52. (1) The Legislative Assembly, unless sooner dis-solved, shall continue > for five years from the date appointed for its first meeting and not > longer, > and the expiration of the said period of five years shall operate as a > dissolution of the Assembly; > Provided that the said period may, while a Proclamation of Emergency > issued > under arti-cle 352 of the Constitution of India is in operation, be > extended > by the State Legislature by law for a period not exceeding one year at a > time and not extending in any case beyond a period of six months after the > Proclamation has ceased to operate. > > (2) The Legislative Council shall not be subject to dissolution but as > nearly as possible one-third of the members thereof shall retire, as soon > as > may be, on the expiration of every second year in accordance with the > provisions made in that behalf by Legislature by law. > > 53. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall from time to time summon each House of > the > Legislature to meet at such time and place as he thinks fit, but six > months > shall not intervene between its last sitting in one session and the date > appointed for its first sitting in the next session. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may from time to time... > > (a) prorogue the House or either house (b) dissolve the Legislative > Assembly. > > 54. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may address either House of Legislature, or > both > Houses assembled together, and may for that purpose require the attendance > of members. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may send messages to either House, whether with > respect to a Bill then bending in the Legislature, or otherwise and a > House > to which any message is so sent shall with all convenient dispatch > consider > any matter required by the message to be taken into consideration. > > 55. (1) At the commencement of the first session after each general > election > to the Legislative Assembly and at the commencement of the first session > of > each year, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall address both Houses of Legislature > assembled together and inform the Legislature of the cause of its summons. > > (2) Provision shall be made by the rules regulating the procedure of > either > House for the allot-ment of time for discussion of the matters reffered to > in such address. > > 56. Every Minister and the Advocate General shall have the right to speak > in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings, of both Houses and to > speak in, and otherwise to to take part in the proceedings of, any > Committee-of the Legislature of which he may be named a member, but shall > not, by virtue of this section, be entitled to vote. > > *OFFICERS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > 57. The Legislative Assembly shall, as soon as may be, choose two members > of > the Assembly to be res-pectively Speaker and Deputy Speaker thereof and, > so > often at office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant, the Assembly > shall choose another member to be Speaker, or Deputy Speaker, as the case > may be. > > 58. A member holding office as Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the > Legislative > Assembly: > > (a) shall vacate his office if he ceases to be a member of the Assembly; > > (b) may at any time by writing under his hand addressed, if such member is > the Speaker, to the Deputy Speaker, and if such member is the Deputy > Speaker, to the Speaker, resign his office; and > > (c) may be removed from his office by a resolu-tion of the Assembly passed > by a majority of all the then members of the Assembly; > > Provided that no resolution for the purpose of clause (c) shall be moved > unless at least fourteen days notice has been given of the intention to > move > the resolution. > > Provided further that, whenever the Assembly is dissolved, the Speaker > that > not vacate his office until immediately before the first meeting of the > Assembly after the dissolution. > > 59. (1) While the office of Speaker is vacant the duties of the office > shall > be performed by the Deputy Speaker or, if the office of the Deputy Speaker > is also vacant, by such member of the Assembly as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may > appoint for the purpose. > > (2) During the absence of the Speaker from any sitting of the Assembly the > Deputy speaker or, if he is also absent, such person as may be determined > by > the rules of procedure of the Assembly, or, if no such person is present, > such other person as may be determined by the Assembly, shall act as > Speaker. > > 60. (1) At any sitting of the Legislative Assembly, while any resolution > for > the removal of the Speaker from his office is under consideration, the > Speaker, or while any resolution for the removal of the Deputy Speaker > from > his office is under consideration, the Deputy Speaker shall not, though he > is present, preside and the provisions of sub-section (2) of section 59 > shall apply inrelation to every such sitting as they apply in relation to > a > sitting from which the Speaker or, as the case may be, the Deputy Speaker > is > absent. > > (2) The Speaker shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to take > part > in the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly while any resolu-tion for > his > removal from office is under con-sideration in the Assembly and shall, > notwith-standing anything in section 67, be entitled to vote only in the > first instance on such resolu-tion or on any other matter during such > pro-ceedings but not in the case of an equality of votes. > > 61. (1) The Legislative Council shall, as soon as may be, choose two > members > of the Council to be respectively Chairman and Deputy Chairman thereof > and, > so often as the office of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman becomes vacant, > the Council shall choose another member to be Chairman or Deputy Chairman, > as the case may be. > > (2) The provisions of sections 58,59 and 60 shall apply in relation to > the > Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council with the > substitution of the words "Chairman" and "Council" for the words "Speaker" > and "Assembly" respectively wherever they occur in those provisions, and > with the omission of the further proviso to section 58. > > 62. There shall be pay to the speaker and the the Deputy Speaker of the > Legislative Assembly and to the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the > Legislative Council, such salaries and allowances as may be respectively > fixed by Legislature by law and, until provi-sion in that behalf is so > made, > such salaries and allowances as are specified in the Third Schedule. > > 63. (1) Each House of the Legislature shall have a separate secretarial > Staff: > > Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as preventing > the creation of posts common to both Houses. > > (2) The Legislature may by law regulate the re-cruitment, and the > conditions > of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of each House. > > (3) Until provision is made by the Legislature under sub-section (2), the > Sadar-i-Riyasat may, after consultation with the Speaker of the > Legislative > Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case may be, > make rules regulating the recruitment, and the con-ditions of service of > persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of the Assembly or the > Council, > and any rules so made shall have effect subject to the provisions of any > law > made under the said sub-section. > > *CONDUCT OF BUSINESS* > > 64. Every member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative Council > shall before taking his seat, make and sub-scribe before the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > or some person appointed in that behalf by him an oath or affirmation > according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. > > 65. Save as otherwise provided by the rules of proce-dure of the House, > the > quorum to constitute a meeting of the Legislative Assembly and of the > Legislative Council shall be twenty and ten re-spectively. > > 66. A House of the Legislature shall have power to act notwithstanding any > vacancy in the membership thereof, and any proceedings in the Legislature > shall be valid notwithstanding that it is discovered subsequently that > some > person who was not entitl-ed so to do sat or voted or otherwise took part > in > the proceedings. > > 67. (1) Save as otherwise provided in this Constitu-tion, all questions at > any sitting of a House of the Legislature shall be determined by a > majority > of votes of the members present and voting, other than the Speaker or > Chairman, or person acting as such. > > (2) The Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such, shall not vote in > the > first instance, but shall have and exercise a casting vote in the case of > an > equality of votes. > > *DISQUALIFICATIONS OF MEMBERS*** > > 68. (1) No person shall be a member of both Houses of the Legislature and > provision shall be made by Legislature by law for the vacation by a person > who is chooser a member of both Houses of his seat in one House or the > other. > > (2) If a member of a House of the Legislature resigns his seat by writing > under his hand addressed to tile Speaker or the Chairman, as the case may > be, his s at shall thereupon become vacant. > > (3) If for a period of sixty days a member of a House of the Legislature > is > without permission of the House absent from all meetings thereof, the > House > may declare his seat vacant: > > Provided that in computing the said period of sixty days no account shall > be > taken of: > > (a) such absence caused by reason beyond his control; or > > (b) any period during which the House is prorogued or is adjourned for > more > than four consecutive days. > > 69. (1) A person shall be disqualified for being chosen and for being a > member of the Legislative Assembly or Legislative Council: > > (a) if he holds any office of profit under the Government of India or the > State Govern-ment within the Union of India, other than an office declared > by Legislature by law not to dis-qualify its holder; > > (b) if he is of unsound mind and stands so declared by a competent court; > > (c) if he is an undischarged insolvent; > > (d) if he is not a permanent resident of the State or has voluntarily > acquired the citizenship of a foreign State, or is under any > acknowledgement > of allegiance to adherence to a foreign State; > > (e) if he is so disqualified by or under any law made by the Legislature. > > (2) For the purposes of this section, a person shall not be deemed to hold > an office of profit under the Government of India, the State Government or > any other State Government vithin the Union of India, by reason only that > he > is a Minister, or a Deputy Minister. > > 70. (1) If it is represented to the Speaker or the Chairman that a member > of the Legislative Assembly or, as the case may be, of the Legis-lative > Council is disqualified for being such a member under the provisions of > section 69, or > was so disqualified at any time since being chosen as a member and the > member does not admit that he is or was so disqualified, the question > shall > be referred to the High Court decision and its decision shall be final: > > Provided that w here the disqualification in question arises from > circumstances which subsisted at the time of his being chosen as such > member, no such representation as aforesaid shall be entertained: > > (a) unless it is made after the expiration of the period by law for > presenting an elec-tion petition calling in question the election of the > member; and > > (b) if such an election petition is pending or has been tried, unless the > Speaker or Chairman as the case may be is satisfied that the question of > the > members' disquali-fication by reason of those circumstances has not been > raised or, as the case may be, was not raised, in the proceedings on the > election petition. > > (2) Where on a representation made under sub-section (I) the member admits > that he is or w. s disqualified under the provisions of section 69, or > where > on a reference made under that sub-section the High Court decides that the > member is or was so disqualified, his seat shall thereupon become vacant. > > 71. If a person sits or votes as a member of the Legislative Assembly or > the > Legislative Council before he has complied with the requirements of > section > 54 or when he knows that he is not quali-fied or that he is disqualified > for > membership thereof or that he is prohibited from so doing by the > provisions > of any law made by the Legislature, he shall be liable in respect of each > day on which he so sits or votes to a penalty of one hundred rupees to be > recovered as a debt due to the State. > > *POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND ITS > MEMBERS* > > 72. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the rules > and > standing orders regulating the procedure of the Legislature, there shall > be > freedom of speech in the Legislature. > > (2) No member of the Legislature shall be liable to any proceedings in any > court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in the > Legislature or any committee thereof and no person shall be so liable in > respect of the publication by or under the authority of a House of the > Legislature of any report, paper, votes, or proceedings. > > (3) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of a House of > the Legislature and- of the members and the committees of a House of the > Legislature shall be such as may from time to time be defined by > Legislature > by law, and until so defined shall be those of the Parliament of India and > of its members and committees. > > (4) The provisions of sub-sections (1), (2) and (3) shall apply in > relation > to persons who by virtue of this Constitution have the right t o speak, in > and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of, a House of the > Legislature > or any committee thereof as they apply in relation to members of that > Legislature. > > 73. Members of the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council shall > be > entitled to receive such salaries and allowances as may from time to time > be > determined by Legislature by law and, until provision in that respect is > so > made, salaries and allowances at such rates and upon such conditions as > were > immediately before the commencement of this Constitution applicable in the > case of members of the Constituent Assembly. > > *LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURE* > > 74. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 76 and 84 with respect to > Money Bills and other Finan-cial Bills, a Bill may originate in either > House > of the Legislature. > > (2) Subject to the provisions of sections 75 and 76 a Bill shall not be > deemed to have been passed by the Legislature unless it has been agreed to > by both Houses, either without amendment or with such amendments only as > are > agreed to by both Houses. > > (3) A Bill pending in the Legislature shall not lapse by reason of the > prorogation of the House or House thereof. > > (4) A Bill pending in the Legislative Council which has not been passed by > the Legislative Assembly shall not lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly. > > (5) A Bill which is pending in the Legislative Assembly or which having > been > passed by the Legislative Assembly, is pending in the Legi-slative > Council, > shall lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly > > 75. (1) If after a Bill has been passed by the Legisla-tive Assembly and > transmitted to the Legisla-tive Council: > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > (b) more than three months elapse from the date on which the Bill is laid > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Legisl-ative Assembly may, > subject > to the rules regulating its procedure, pass the Bill again in the same or > in > any subse-quent session with or without such amendments, if any, as have > been made suggested or agreed to by the Legislative Council and then > transmit the Bill as so passed to the Legislative Council. > > (2) If after a Bill has been so palmed for the se-cond time by the > legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council: > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > (b) more shall one month elapses from the date on which the Bill is laid > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > Legislative Assembly does not agree; > > the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Houses of the > Legislature in the form in which it passed by the Legislative Assembly for > the second time with such amendments, if any, as have been made or > suggested > by the Legislative Council and agreed to by the Legislative Assembly. > > (3) Nothing in this section shall apply to a Money Bill. > > 76. (1) A Money Bill shall not be introduced in the Legislative Council. > > (2) After a Money Bill has been passed by the Legislative Assembly, it > shall > be transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommenda-tions and the > Legislative Council shall within a period of fourteen days from the date > of > its receipt of the Bill return the Bill to the Legis-lative Assembly with > its recommendations, and the Legislative Assemble may there upon either > accept or reject all or any of the recom-mendations of the Legislative > Council. > > (3) If the Legislative Assembly accepts any of the recommendations of the > Legislative Council, the Money Bil] shall deemed to have been passed by > both > Houses with the amend-ments recommended by the Legislative Coun-cil and > accepted by the Legislative Assembly. > > (4) If the Legislative Assembly does not accept any of the recommendations > of the Legislative Council, the Money Bill shall be deemed to have been > passed by both Houses in the form which it was passed by the Legislative > Assembly without any of the amendments recommended by the Legislative > Council. > > 5. If a Money Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly and transmitted to > the > Legislative Council for its recommendations is not returned to the > Legislative Assembly within the said period of fourteen days, it shall be > deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the said > period in the form in which it was passed by the Legislative Assembly. > > 77. (1) For the purposes of the part, a Bill shall be deemed to be a Money > Bill if it contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the > following > matters namely: > > (a) the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of any > tax; > > (b) the regulation of the borrowing of money or the giving of any > guarantee > by the State, or the amendment of the law with respect to any financial > obligations under-taken or to be undertaken by the State; > > (c) the custody of the Consolidated Fund or the Contingency Fund of the > State, the payment of money into or the with-drawal of moneys from any > such > Fund: > > (d) the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State; > > (e) the declaring of any expenditure to be expenditure charges on the > consolidated Fund of the State, or the increasing of the amount of any > such > expenditure; > > (f) the receipt of money on account of the Consolidated Fund of the State > or > the public account of the State or the custody or issue of such money; or > any matter incidental to any of the matters specified in clauses (a) to > (f). > > (2) A Bill shall not be deemed to be a Money Bill by reason only that it > provides for the imposition of fines or other pecuniary penalties or for > the > demand or payment of fees for lice-nces or fees for services rendered, or > by > reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, > alteration > or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local > purposes. > > (3) If any question arises whether a Bill introduced in the Legislature is > a > Money Bill or not, the decision of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly > thereon shall be final. > > (4) There shall be endorsed an every Money Bill when it is transmitted to > the Legislative Council under section 76 and when it is pre-sented to the > Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent under section 78, the certificate of the > Speaker > of the Legislative Assembly signed by him that it is a Money Bill. > > 78. When a Bill has been passed by both Houses of the Legislature, it > shall > be presented to the Sadar--i-Riyasat and the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall declare > either that he assents to the Bill or that he with-holds assent therefrom. > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, as soon as possible after the > presentation to him of the Bill for assent, return the Bill if it is not a > Money Bill together with a message requesting that the Houses will > reconsider the Bill or any specified provisions thereof and, in > particular, > will consider the desira-bility of introducing any such amendments as he > may > recommend in his message and, when a Bill is so returned, the Houses shall > reconsider the Bill accordingly, and if the Bill is passed again by the > Houses with or without amendment and presented to the Sadar-i-Riyasat for > assent, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not withhold assent therefrom. > > *PROCEDURE IN FINANCIAL MATTERS* > > 79. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall in respect of every financial year cause > to be laid before both Houses of the Legislature a statement of the > estimated receipts and expenditure of the State for that year, in this > part > referred to as the "annual financial statement." (2) The estimates of > expenditure embodied in the annual financial statement shall show > separately > > (a) the sums required to meet expenditure described by this constitution > as > expendi-ture charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State; and > > (b) the sums required to meet other expendi-ture proposed to be made from > the con-solidated Fund of the State; and shall distinguish expenditure on > revenue account from other expenditure. > > (3) The following expenditure shall be expenditure charged on the > consolidated fund of the State: > > (a) the emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and other > expenditure relating to his office; > > (b) the salaries and allowances of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of > the > Legislative Assembly and of the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the > Legislative Council; > > (c) debt charges for which the State is liable including interest, sinking > fund charges and redemption charges. and other expenditure relating to the > raising of loans and the service and redemption of debt; > > (d) expenditure in respect of the salaries and allowances of the Judges of > the High Court; > > (e) any sums required to satisfy any judge-ment decree or award of any > Court > or arbitral tribunal; > > (f) any other expenditure declared by this Constitution, or by Legislature > by law, to be so charged. > > 80. (1,) So much of the estimates as relates to expen-diture changed upon > the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be submitted to the vote of > the > Legislative Assembly, but nothing in this sub-section shall be construed > as > preven-ting the discussion in the Legislature of any those estimates. > > (2) So much of the said estimates as relates to other expenditure shall be > submitted in the form of demands for grants to the Legislative Assembly, > and > the Legislative Assembly shall have power to assent, or to refuse to > assent, > to any demand, or to assent to any demand subject to a reduction of the > amount specified therein. > > (3) No demand for a grant shall be made except on the recommendation of > the > Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > (1) As soon as may be after the grants under section 80 have been made by > the Assembly, there shall be introduced a Bill to provide for the > appropriation out of the Consolidated fund of the State of all moneys > required to meet: > > (a) the grants so made by the Assembly; and (b) the expenditure charged on > the Consoli-dated Fund of the State but not exceed-ing in any case the > amount shown in the statement previously laid before the Houses. > > (23 No amendment shall be proposed to any such Bill in either House of the > Legislature which will have the effect of varying the amount or altering > the > destination of any grant to made or of varying the amount of any > expenditure > charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State, and the decision of the > person presiding as to whether an amendment is inadmissible under the > sub-section shall be final. > > (3) Subject to the provisions of sections 89 and 83, no money shall be > withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund of the State except under > appropriation > made by law passed in accor-dance with the provisions of this section > > 12. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall: > > (a) if the amount authorised by any law made in accordance with provisions > of section 81 to be expended for a particular service for the current > financial year is found to be insufficient for the purposes of that year > or > when a need has arisen during the current financial year for > supplemen-tary > or additional expenditure upon some new service not contemplated in the > annual financial statement for that year; or > > (b) if any money has been spent on any ser-vice during a financial year in > excess of the amount granted for the service and for that year, cause to > be > laid before the Houses of the Legislature another statement showing the > estimated amount of that expenditure or cause to be presented to the > Legis-lative Assembly a demand for such excess, as the case may be. > > (2) The provisions of sections 79, 80 and 81 shall have effect in relation > to any such statement and expenditure or demand and also to any law to be > made authorising the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund > of > the State to meet such expenditure or the grant in respect of such demand > as > they have effect in relation to the annual financial state-ment and the > expenditure mentioned therein or to a demand for grant and the law to be > 'made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the > Consolidated Fund of the state to meet such expenditure or grant. > > 83. (1) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this Part, > the Legislative Assem-bly shall have power: > > (a) to make any grant in advance in respect of the estimated expenditure > for > a part of any financial year pending the completion of the procedure > prescribed in section 80 for the voting of such grant and the pas-sing of > the law in accordance with the provisions of section 81 in relation to > that > expenditure; > > (b) to make a grant for meeting an unexpec-ted demand upon the resources > of > the State when on account of the magnitude or the indefinite character of > the services the demand cannot be stated with the details ordinarily given > in an annual financial statement; > > (c) to make an exceptional grant which forms no part of the current > service > of any financial year; > and the Legislature shall have power to authorise by law the withdrawal of > moneys from the Consolidated Fund of the State for the purposes for which > the said grants are made. > > (2) The provisions of sections 80 and 81 shall have effect in relation to > the making of any grant under sub-section (1) and to law to be made under > that sub-section as they have effect in relation to the making of a grant > with regard to any expenditure mentioned h1 the annual financial statement > and the law to be made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys > out > of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure. > > 84. (1) A bill or amendment making provision for any of the matters > specified in clauses (a) to (f) of sub-section (1) of section 77 shall not > be introduced or moved except on the recom-mendation of the > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > and a Bill making such provision shall not be introdu-ced in the > Legislative > Council: > > Provided that no recommendation shall be required under this sub-section > for > the moving of an amendment making provision for the reduction or abolition > of any tax. > > (2) A Bill or amendment shall not be deemed to make provision for any of > the > matters afore-said by reason only that it provides for the. imposition of > fines or other pecuniary penal-ties, or for the demand or payment of fees > for licences or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it provides > for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of any > tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. > > (3) A Bill which, if enacted and brought into operation. would involve > expenditure from the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be passed by > a > House of the Legislature unless the Sadar-i-Riyasat has recommended to > that > House the consideration of the Bill. > > *PROCEDURE GENERALLY* > > 85. (1) A House of the Legislature may make rules for regulating, subject > to > the provisions of this Constitution, its procedure and the con-duct of its > business. > > (2) Until rules are made under sub-section (1), the rules of procedure and > standing orders in force immediately before the commencement of this > Constituent Assembly while discharging the functions of the Legislative > Assembly shall have effect in relation to each House of the Legislature > subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be made therein by > the > Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative > Council, as the case may be. > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, after consultation with the Speaker of the > Legislative Assembly and the Chairman of the Legislative Council, may > make- > rules as to the procedure with respect to communications between the two > Houses. > > 86. The Legislature may, for the purpose of the timely completion of > financial business, regulate by law the procedure of, and the conduct of > business in. the House of the Legislature in relation to any financial > matter or to any Bill for the appropria-tion of moneys out of the > Consolidated Fund of the State, and, if and so far as any provision of any > law so made is inconsistent with any rule made by either House of the > Legislature under sub-section (I) of section 85 or with any rule of > standing > order having effect in relation to either House of the Legislature under > sub-section (2) of that section such provisions shall prevail. > > 87. Business in the Legislature shall be transacted in Urdu or in English. > > (1) Provided that the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman > of > the Legislative Council or person acting as such, as the case may be, may > permit any member to address the House in Hindi, or if he cannot > adequa-tely > express himself in any of the aforesaid languages, to address the House in > his mother-tongue. > > (2) The official records of the proceedings in the Legislature shall be > kept > in Urdu as well as in English. > > (3) The text of all Bills and amendments there of moved in and of all Acts > passed by the Legis-lature which shall be treated as authoritative, shall > be > in English. > > 88. No discussion shall take place in the Legislature with respect to the > conduct of any Judge of the Supreme Court or of the High Court in the > discharge of his duties. > > 89. (1) The validity of any proceedings in the Legis-lature shall not be > called in question -on the gro-unds of any alleged irregularity of > procedure. > > (2) No officer or member of the Legislature in whom powers are vested by > or under this Constitution for regulating procedure or the conduct of > Business, or for maintaining order, in the Legislature shall be subject to > the juris-diction of any court in respect of the exercise by him of those > powers. > > 90. No Act of the Legislature and no provision in any such Act shall be > invalid by reason only that some recommendation required by this > Constitution was not given, if assent to that Act was given by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > Legislative power of the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > 91. (1) If at any time, except when both Houses of the Legislature are in > session, the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that circumstances exist which > render it necessary for him to take immediate action; he may promulgate > such > Ordinances as the circums-tances appear to him to require. > Provided that the power of making Ordinance under this Section shall > extend > only to those matters with respect to which the Legislature has power to > make laws. > > (2) An Ordinance promulgated under this section shall have the same force > and effect as an Act of the Legislature assented to by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > but every such Ordinance: > > (a) shall be laid before both the Houses of the Legislature, and shall > cease > to operate at the expiration of six weeks from the re-assembly of the > Legislature, or if be-fore tile expiration of that period a reso-lution > disapproving it is passed by the Legislative Assembly and agreed to by > Legislative Council, upon the resolution being agreed to by the > Legislative > Coun-cil, and - > > (b) may be withdrawn at any time by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > Explanation: - Where the Houses of the Legislature are summoned to > re-assemble on different dates the period of six weeks shall be reckoned > from the latter of those dates for the purposes of this sub-section. > > Breakdown of Constitutional Machinery. > > 92. (1) If at any time the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that a situation > has > arisen in which the Government of the State cannot be carried on in > accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, the Sadar-i-Riyasat > may > by Proclamation: > > (a) assume to himself all or any of the func-tions of the Government of > the > State and all or any of the powers vested in or excercisable by anybody or > authority in the State; > > (b) make such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to the > Sadar-i--Riyasat to be necessary or desirable for giving effect to the > objects of the Procla-mation, including provisions for suspen-ding in > whole > or in part the operation of any provision of this Constitution rela-ting > to > any body or authority in the State: > > Provided that nothing in this section shall authorised die Sadar-i-Riyasat > to assume to himself any of the powers vested in or exer-cisable by the > High > Court or to suspend in whole or in part the operation of any provi-sion of > this Constitution relating to the High Court. > > (2) Any such Proclamation may be revoked or carried by a subsequent > Proclamation. > > (3) Any such Proclamation whether varied under sub-section (2) or not, > shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous > Proclama-tion, > cease to operate on the expiration of six months from the date on which it > divas first Issued. > > (4) If the Sadar-i-Riyasat by a Proclamation under this section assumes to > himself any of the powers of the legislature to make laws, any law made by > him in the exercise of that power shall, subject to the terms thereof, > continue to have effect until two years have elapsed from the date on > which > the Proclamation ceases to have effect, unless sooner repealed or > re-enacted > by an Act of the Legislature, and any reference in this Constitution to > any > Acts of or laws made by the Legislature shall be construed as including a > reference to such law. No Proclamation under sub-section (1) shall be > issued > except with the concurrence of the President of India. > > (6) Every Proclamation under this section shall, except where it is a > Proclamation revoking a previous Proclamation, be laid before each house > of > the Legisiature as soon as it is convened. > > *PART VII* > *THE HIGH COURT* > > 93. (1) There shall be a High Court for the State, consisting of a Chief > Justice and two or more other judges. > > (2) The High Court exercising jurisdiction in relation to the State > Immediately before the commencement of this Constitution shall be the High > Court for the State. > > 94. The High Court shall be a court of record and shall have all the > powers > of such a courts including the power to punish for contempt of itself or > of > the courts subordinate to it. > > 95. Every Judge of the High Court shall be appointed by the President by > Warrant under his hand and seal after consultation with the Chief Justice > of > India, the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and in the case of appointment of a Judge > other > than the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice of the High Court and shall hold > office until he attains the age of sixty years. > > 96. A person shall not be qualified for appointment as a Judge of the High > Court unless he is a citizen of India, and: > > (a) has for at least ten years held a judicial office in the State or in > any > other part of India; or > > (b) has for at least ten years been an advocate of the State High Court or > of any other High Court in India or of two or more such courts in > succession. > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this Section in omputing the period > during which a person has been an advocate of a High Court. there shall be > included any period during which the person has held judicial office after > he became an advocate. > > 97. Every person appointed to be a Judge of the High > Court, shall. before he enters upon his office, make an subscribe before > the > Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him, an oath or > affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > Schedule. > > 98. (1) There shall be paid to the Judges of the High > Court such salaries as are specified in the Fourth Schedule. > > (a) Every Judge shall be entitled to such allowan-ces and to such rights > in > respect of leave of absence and pension as may from time to time be > determined by or under law made by the Legislature, and until so > determined, > to such allowances and rights as are specified in the Fourth Schedule: > > Provided that neither the allowances of a Judge nor his rights in respect > of > leave of absence or pension shall be varied to his dis-advantage after his > appointment: > > 99. (1) A Judge of the High Court may, by writing under his hand addressed > to the President, resign his office. > > (2) A Judge of the High Court shall not be removed from his office except > by > an order of the President passed after an address by each House of the > Legislature supported by a majority of the total membership of that House > and by a majority of not less than two- thirds of the members of that > House > present and voting has been presented to the president > in the same session for such removal on the > ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity. > > (3) The Legislature may by law regulate the procedure for the > presentation > of an address and for the investigation and proof of the misbehaviour or > incapacity of a Judge under sub-section (2). > > 100. (1) When the office of the Chief Justice is vacant or when the Chief > Justice is by reason of absence or otherwise, unable to perform the duties > of his office, the duties of the office shall be performed by such one of > the other > Judges of the Court as the President may appoint for the purpose. > > (2) When any Judge of the High Court other than the Chief Justice is by > reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the duties of > his office or is appointed to act temporarily as Chief Justice, the > President may appoint a duly qualified person to act as a Judge of the > Court > until the permanent Judge has resumed his duties. > > 101. (1) The usual places of sitting of the High Court shall be Jammu and > Srinagar. > > (2) The Chief Justice shall, with the approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat > determine the number of Judges who shall sit from time to time at Jammu > and > at Srinagar for such period as may be deemed necessary. > > (3) Whenever it appears to the Chief Justice that it is desirable that the > High Courts should hold its sitting at a place other than Srinagar and > Jummu, one or more Judges of the High Court as determined by him shall, > with > the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, sit at such place. > > 102. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the provisions > of > any law for the time being in force, the jurisdiction of and the law > administered in the High Court and the respective powers of the Judges > thereof in relation to the administration of justice in the court, > including > any power to make rules of court and to regulate the sittings of the court > and of members thereof, sitting alone or in Division Courts, shall be the > same as immedia-tely before the commencement of this Constitution. > > 103. The High Court shall have power to issue to any person or authority, > including in appropriate cases any Government within the State, > directions, > orders or writs. including writs in the nature of habeas corpus, mandamus, > prohibition, quo warranto and certiorari, or any of them. for any purpose > other than those mentioned in clause (2A) of article 32 of the > Constitution > of India. > > 104. (1) The High Court shall have superintendence and control over all > courts for the time being subject to its appellate or revisional > jusrisdic-tion and all such courts shall be subordinate to the High Court. > > (I) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, the > High > court may: > > (a) call for returns from such courts, > > (b) make and issue general rules and prescribe forms for regulating the > practice and pro-ceedings of such courts; and > > (c) Prescribe forms in which books, entries and accounts shall be kept by > the officers of any such court. > > (3) The High Court may also settle tables of fees to be allowed to the > sheriff and all clerks and officers of such courts and to attorneys, > advo-cates and pleaders practicing therein: > Provided that any rules made, forms prescrib-ed or tables settled under > sub-section (2) or sub-section(3) shall not be inconsistent with the > provision of any law for the time being in force, and shall require the > previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > 105. If the High Court is satisfied that a case pending in a court > subordinate to it involves a substantial question of law as to the > interpretation of this Constitution or the Constitution of India the > deter-mination of which is necessary for the disposal of the case, it > shall > withdraw the case and may: > > (a) either dispose of the case itself; or > > (b) determine the said question of law and return the case to the court > from > which the case has been so withdrawn together with a copy of its judgement > on such question, and the said court shall on receipt thereof proceed to > dispose of the case in conformity with such judgement. > > 106. No person who had held office as a Judge of the > High Court after the commencement of this Con-stitution shall plead or act > in any court or before any authority within the State. > > 107. (1) The High Court shall have and use as occa-sion may require a seal > bearing a device and impression of the State emblem with an exergue or > label > surrounding the same with the inscription: > > "The seal of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir'' > > (2) The seal shall be delivered to. and kept in the custody of, the > Registrar or such other officer of the court as the Chief Justice may > designate in this behalf. > > 108. (1) Appointments of officers and servants of the High Court shall be > made by the Chief Justice of the court or such other judge or officer of > the > court as he may direct: > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by rule require that in such cases > as > may be specified in the rule no person not already attached to the court > shall be appointed to any office connected with the court save after > consulta-tion with the State Public Service Commis-sion. > > (I) Subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the > conditions of service of the officers and servants of the High Court shall > be such as may be prescribed by rules made by the High Court with the > approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > (3) The administrative expenses of the High Court including all salaries, > allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the officers and > servants of the Court' shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the > State, and any fees or other moneys taken by the Court shall form part of > that Fund. > > *SUBORDINATE COURTS* > > 109. (1) Appointment of persons to be, and the postings: and promotion off > district judges in the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in > con-sultation with the High Court. > (2) A person not already in the service of the : State shall only be > eligible to be appointed a district judge if he has been for not less > than > seven years an advocate or pleader and is recommended by the High Court > for > appointment. > > 110. Appointment of persons other than district judges to the judicial > service of the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in accordance > with > rules made by him in that behalf after consulation with the Public Service > Commission and with the High Court. > > 111. The control over district courts and courts sub-ordinate thereto > including the posting and promo-tion of, and the grant of leave to, > persons > belong-ing to the judicial service of the State and holding any post > inferior to the post of district judge shall be vested in the High Court, > but nothing in this section shall be construed as taking away from any > such > person any right of appeal which he may have under the law regulating the > conditions of his service or as authorising the High Court to deal with > him > otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of his service prescribed > under such law. > > 112. In this part... > > (a) the expression "district judge'' includes additional district judge, > assistant district judge, sessions judge, additional sessions judge and > assistant sessions judge: > > (b) the expression "judical service" means a service consisting > exclusively > of persons inten-ded to fill the post of district judge, and other civil > judicial posts inferior to the post of dis-trict judge. > > 113. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be public notification direct that the > foregoing provisions of this part and any rules made thereunder shall with > effect from such date as may be fixed by him in that behalf apply in > relation to any class or classes of magis-trates in the State as they > apply > in relation to any persons appointed to the judicial service of the State > Subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified in the > notification. > > *PART VIII* > *FINANCE, PROPERTY AND CONTRACTS* > > 114. No tax shall be levied or collected except by authority of law. > > 115. (1) Subject to the provisions of section 116, all revenues received > by > the Government, all loans raised by the Government by the issue of > treasury bills, loans or ways and means advances and all moneys received > by > Government in repayment of loaned shall form one consolidated fund to be > entitled "the Consolidated Fund of the State." > (2) All other public moneys received by or on behalf of the Government > shall > be credited to the public account of the State. > (3) No moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State shall be > appropriated except in accordance with law and for the purposes and in the > manner provided in this Constitution. > > 116. The Legislature may by law establish a Contingency Fund in the nature > of an impress to be entitled > "the Contingency Fund of the State" into which shall be paid from time to > time such sums as may be determined by such law, and the said Fund shall > be > placed at the disposal of the Sadar-i--Riyasat to enable advances to be > made > by him out of such fund for the purposes of meeting unforeseen expenditure > pending authorisation of such expendi-ture by Legislature by law under > section 82 or 83. > > 117. The State may make any grants for any public purpose, notwithstanding > that the purpose is not one with expect to which the Legislature may make. > > 118. The custody of the Consolidated Fund of the State and the Contingency > Funds of the State, the payment of moneys into such funds, the withdrawal > of > moneys therefrom, the custody of public moneys other than those credited > to > such Fund received by or on behalf of the Government, their payment into > the > public account of the State and the withdrawal of moneys from such account > and all other matters connected with or ancillary to matters aforesaid > shall > be regulated by law made by the Legislature and, until provision in that > behalf is so made, shall be regulated by rules made by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > 119. All moneys received by or deposited with: > > (a) any officer employed in connection with the affairs of the State in > his > capacity as such, other than revenues or public moneys raised or received > by > the Government; or > > (b) an, court within the State to the credit of any cause, matter, account > or persons, shall be paid into the public account of the State. > > 120. Any property within the State which, if this Constitution had not > come > up into operation, would have accrued to the Government or any other > authority hi the State by escheat or lapse, or as bona-vacantia for want > of > a rightful owner, shall vest in the State. > > 121. (1) The executive power of the State shall extend, subject to any law > made by the State Legisla-ture, to the carrying on of any trade or > busi-ness, and to the grant, scale, disposition or mortgage of any > property > held for the purposes of the State, and to the purchase or acquisi-tion of > property for those purposes and to the making of contracts. > > (2) All property acquired for the purposes of the State shall vest in the > State. > > 122. (1) All contracts made in the exercise of the executive power of the > State shall be expressed to be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and all such > contracts and all assurance of property made in the exercise of that power > shall be executed on behalf of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by such persons and in > such manner as he may direct or authorise. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be personally liable in respect of any > contract or assurance made or executed for the purposes of this > Constitution, or for the purposes any of enact-ment relating to the > Government of the State heretofore in force, nor shall any person making > or > executing any such contract or assurance on his behalf be personally > liable > in respect thereof. > > 123. The Government may sue or be sued by the name of the State of Jammu > and > Kashmir and may, subject to any provisions which may be made by Act of the > Legislature enacted by virtue of powers conferred by this Constitution, > sue > or be sued in relation to its affairs in the like cases as the State might > have sued or been sued if this Constitution had not been enacted. > > *PART IX* > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE* > > 124. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may > by > law regulate the recruitment and conditions of service of persons > appointed, > to public services and posts in connection with the affairs of the State: > > Provided that it shall be competent for the Sadar--i-Riyasat or such > person > as he may direct, to make rules regulating the recruitment and the > conditions of services of persons appointed, to such services and posts > until provisions in that behalf is made by or under an Act of the > Legislature under this section, and any rules so made shall effect subject > to the provisions of any such Act. > > 125. (1) Except expressly provided by this Constitution, every person who > is > a member of a civil service of the State or holds any civil post > under the State hold office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > (2) Notwithstanding that a person holding a civil post under the State > holds > office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, any contract under > which > a person, not being a member of a civil service of the State, is appointed > to hold such a post man, if the Sadar-i-Riyasat deems it necessary in > order > to secure the services of a person having special qualifications, provide > for tile payment to him of compensation, if before the expiration of an > agreed period that post is abolished or he is, for reasons not connected > with any miscon-duct on his part required to vacate that post. > > 126. (1) No person who is a member of a civil service of tile State or > holds > a civil post under the State shall be distressed or removed by an > authority > subordinate to that by which he was appointed. > > (2) No such person as aforesaid shall be dismissed or removed or reduced > in > rank until he has been given a reasonable opportunity of show-ing cause > against the action proposed to be taken in regard to him: > > Provided that this sub-section shall not apply: > > (a) where a person is dismissed or removed or reduced in rank on the > ground > of con-duct which has led to his conviction on a criminal charge; > > (b) where an authority empowered to dismiss or remove a person or to > reduce > him in rank is satisfied that for some reason, to be recorded by that > authority in writing, it is not reasonably practicable to give to that > person an opportunity of showing cause; or > > (c) where the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that in the interests of the > security of the State it is not expedient to give to that person such an > opportunity. > > (3) If any question arises whether it is reasonably > practicable to give to any person an oppor-tunity of showing cause under > sub-section. > > (4) The decision thereon of the authority empo-wered to dismiss or remove > such person or to reduce him in rank, as the case may be, shall be final. > > 127. Until other Provisional is made in this behalf under the > constitution, > all the laws in force im-mediately before the commencement of this > Consti-tution and applicable to any public service or any post which > continues to exist after the commence-ment of this Constitution as service > or post under the- State, shall continue in force so far as consistent > with > the provisions of this Constitu-tion. > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION* > > 128. There shall be a Public Service Commission (here-inafter referred to > in > this Part as "the Commi-ssion" for the State. > > 129. (1) The Chairman and other members of the Commission shall be > appointed > by the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > Provided that as nearly as may be one-half of the members of the > Commission > shall be persons who at the dates of their respective appointments have > held > office for at least ten years under the Government. > > (2) A member of the Commission shall hold office of a terms of five years > from the date on which he enters upon his office or until he attains the > age > of sixty-five years, whichever is earlier: > > Provided that: > > (a) a member of the Commission may, by writing under his hand addressed to > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, resign his office > > (b) a member of the Commission may be removed from his office in the > manner > hereinafter provided. > > (3) A person who holds office as a member of the Commission shall on the > expiration of his term of office, be ineligible for re-appointment to that > office. > > 130. (1) Subject to the provisions of sub-section (3), the Chairman or any > other member of the Commission shall only be removed from his office by > order of the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the ground of misbehaviour after the High > Court on reference being made to it by the Sadar-i--Riyasat, has, on > inquiry > held in that behalf, reported that the Chairman or such other member, as > the > case may be ought on any such ground to be removed. > > The Sadar-i-Riyasat may suspend from office the Chairman or any other > member > of the Commission in respect of whom a reference has been made to the High > Court under sub-section (l) until the Sadar-i-Riyasat has passed orders on > receipt of the report of the High Court on such reference. > > (3) Notwithstanding anything in sub-section (1) the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by > order remove from office the Chairman or any other mem-ber of the > Commission > if the Chairman on. such other member, as the case may be - > > (a) is adjudged an insolvent; or > > (b) engages during his term of office in any paid employment out side the > duties of his office; or > > (c) is, in the opinion of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, unfit to continue in office > by reason of infirmity of mind or body. > > (4) If the Chairman or any other member of the Commission is or becomes in > anyway concern-ed or interested in any contract or agreement made by or on > behalf of the Government of the State, the Government of India or the > Government of any other State in India or participates in anyway in the > profit thereof or in any benefit or emolument arising therefrom otherwise > than as a member and in common with other members of an incorporated > company, he shall, for the purposes of sub-section (1), be deemed to be > guilty misbehavi-our. > > 131. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be regulations: > > (a) determine the number of members of the Commission and their conditions > of service; and > > (b) make provision with respect to the num-ber of members of the staff of > the Commission and - their conditions of service; > > Provided that the conditions of service of a member of the Commission > shall > not be varied to his disadvantage after his ap-pointment. > > 132. On ceasing to hold office the Chairman and the members of the > Commission shall be ineligible for further office under the Government of > the State, but a member other than the Chairman shall be eligible for > appointment as a Chairman of the Commission. > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this sec-tion; the office of Minister > or > Deputy Minister shall not be deemed to be an office under the Government > of > the state. > > 133. (1) It shall be the duty of the Commissions to conduct examinations > for > appointment to the services of the State. > > (2) The Commission shall be consulted - > > (a) on all matters relating to methods of recruitment to civil services > and > for civil posts; > > (b) on the principles to be followed in making appointments to civil > services and posts and in making promotions and transfers from one service > to another and on the suitability of candidate for such appointments, > promotions or transfers; > > (c) on all disciplinary matters affecting a person serving under the > Government including memorials or petitions relating to such matters; > and it shall be the duty of the Commission to advise on any matter so > referred to them or on any other matter which the Sadar-i--Riyasat may > refer > to them: > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may make regulations specifying the > matters in which either generally, or in any particular class of cases or > in > any particular circumstances, it shall not be necessary for the Commission > to be consulted. > > (3) Nothing in sub-section (2) shall require the Commission to be > consulted > as respects the manner in which a provision may be made by the State for > the > reservation of appointment or posts in favour of any class of permanent > residents which in the opinion of the Govern-ment is not adequately > represented in the services under the State. > > (4) All regulations made under the proviso to sub-section (2) by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be laid for not less than fourteen days before each > House of the Legislature as soon as possible after they made, and shall be > subject to such modifications, whether by way or repeal or amendment, as > the > Legislative Assembly may make during the session in which they are so > laid. > > 134. If the office of the Chairman of the Commission becomes vacant or if > the Chairman is by reason of absence or for any other reason unable to > perform the duties of his office, those duties shall until some person > appointed under sub-section (1) of section 129 to the vacant office has > entered on the duties thereof or, as the case may be until the Chairman > has > resumed his duties, be performed by such one of the other members of the > Commission as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may appoint for the purpose. > > 135. An Act made by the Legislature may provide for the exercise of > additional functions by the Commission as respects the services of the > State > and also as respects the services of any local authority or other body > corporate constituted by law or of any public institution. > > 136. The expenses of the Commission, including any salaries, allowances > and > pensions payable to or in respect of the members or the staff of the > Com-mission, shall be charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State. > > 137. It shall be the duty of the Commission to present annually to the > Sadar-i-Riyasat a report as to the work done by the Commission and the > Sadar-I--Riyasat, on receipt of such report, shall cause a copy thereof > together with a memorandum explai-ning, as respects the cases, if any, > where > the advice of the Commission was not accepted, the reasons for such > non-acceptance to be laid before the Legislature. > > *PART X* > *ELECTIONS* > > 138. (1) The superintendence, direction and control of the preparation of > the electoral rolls for, and the conduct of, the elections held under Part > VI shall, be vested in an Election Commissio-ner to be appointed by the > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, may, for such period as he may deem necessary > appoint one or more Deputy Election Commissioners to assist the Election > Commissioner in the per-formance of the functions conferred by sub-section > (1). > > (3) subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the > Conditions of service of the Election Commissioner and the Deputy Election > Commissioner shall be such as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > (4) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may make acts viable to the Election Commissioner > such staff as may be necessary for the discharge of the functions > conferred > on the Election Commissioner by sub-section (1). > > 139. There shall be one general electoral roll for every territorial > constituency for election to either House of the Legislature and no person > shall be ineligible for inclusion in any such roll or claim to be > inclu-ded > in any special electoral roll for any such consti-tuency on grounds only > of > religion, race, caste, sex or any of them. > > 140. The elections to the Legislative Assembly shall be on the basis of > adult suffrage; that is to say, every person who is a permanent resident > of > the State and who is not less than twenty-one years of age on such date as > may be fixed in that behalf by or under any law made by the Legislature > and > is not otherwise disqualified under this Constitution or any law made by > the > Legislature on the ground of non-residence, unsoundness of mind, crime or > corruptor illegal practice, shall be registered as a voter at any such > election. > > Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may from > time to time by law make provision with respect to all matters relating > to, > or in connection with elections to either House of the Legislature, > including the preparation of elec-toral rolls, the delimitation of > constituencies, appointment of election tribunals and all other matters > necessary for securing the due constitution of the two Houses. > > 142. Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution: > > (a) the validity of any law relating to the delimita-tion of territorial > constituencies for the pur-pose of electing members of the Legislative > Assembly or the allotment of seats to such constituencies, made or > purporting to be made under section 141, shall not be called in ques-tion > in > any court; > > (b) no election to either House of the Legislature shall be called in > question except by an elec-tion petition present to such authority and in > such manner as may be provided for by or under any law made by the > Legislature. > > *PART XI* > *MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS* > > 143. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be answerable to any court for the > exercise of performance of the powers and duties of his office or for any > act done or purposing to be done by him in the exercise and performance of > those -powers and duties. > > Provided that nothing in this subjection-sec-tion shall be construed as > restricting the right of any person to bring appropriate proceed-ings > against the Government. > > (2) No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or continued > against the Sadar-I--Riyasat in any court during his term of office. No > process for the arrest or imprisonment of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall issue > from any court during his term of office. > > No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > shall be instituted during his term of office in any court in res-pect of > any act done or purporting to be done by him in his personal capacity, > whether be-fore or after he entered upon his office as Sadar-i-Riyasat, > until the expiration of two months next after notice in writing has been > delivered to the Sadar-i-Riyasat or left at his office stating the nature > of > the proceedings the cause of action therefor, the name, descri-ption and > place of residence of the party by whom such proceedings are to be > instituted and the relief which he claims. > > 144. The flag of the State shall be rectangular in shape and red in colour > with three equidistant white vertical stripes of equal with next to the > staff and a white plough in the middle with the handle facing the stripes. > > The ratio of the length of the flag to its width shall be 3:2. > > 145. The official language of the State shall be Urdu, but the English > language shall, unless the Legisla-ture by law otherwise provides continue > to be used for all the official purpose of the State for which it was > being > used immediately before the com-mencement of this Constitution. > > . The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, as soon as may be, after the commencement of > the Constitution establish an Academy of Arts, Culture and Language, where > opportunities will be afforded for the development of Art and Culture of > the > State and for the development of Hindi, Urdu and other regional languages > of > the State specified in the Sixth Schedule.** > > *PART XII* > *AMENDMENTS OF THE CONSTITUTION* > > 147. An amendment of this constitution may be initia-ted only by the > introduction of a Bill for the pur-pose in the Legislative Assembly and > when > the Bill is passed in each House by a majority of not less than two-thirds > of the total membership of at the House, it shall be presented to the > Sadar-i-Riyasat for his assent and, upon such assent being given to the > Bill, the Constitution shall stand amended in accordance with the terms of > the Bill: > > Provided that a Bill providing for the abolition of the Legislative > Council > may be intro-duced in the Legislative Assembly and passed by it majority > of > the total membership of the Assembly and by a majority of not less than > two-thirds of the members of the Assembly present and voting: > > Provided further that no Bill or amendment seeking to make any change in: > > (a) this section; > > (b) the provisions of the sections 3 and 5; or > > (c) the provisions of the constitution of India as applicable in relation > to > the State; > > shall be introduced or moved in either house -of the Legislature. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:21:08 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 06:51:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956 - Legal Document No 140 In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0712052245w34827defg5024615bce1465c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0712052245w34827defg5024615bce1465c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712052250w58232c42wdf6452400bd62734@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aarti , Sometimes I feel the readers should be fed with some intresting facts which are otherwise ignored. Pawan Was your mail intended for me or the group ? On 12/6/07, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > Fascinating. But exactly what is this in aid of? > > best > Aarti > > > On Dec 4, 2007 11:42 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > *The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956* > > Legal Document No 140 > > *(Extract)* > > > > We, the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having solemnly > > resolved, > > in pursuance of accession of this State to > > India which took place on the twenty-sixth day of October, 1947, to > > further > > define the existing relationship of the State with the Union of India as > > an > > integral part thereof, and to secure to ourselves. > > > > *JUSTICE*, social, economic and political; > > *LIBERTY* of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; EQUALITY of > > > > status and of opportunity; and to promote among us all; > > *FRATERNITY*, assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity of > > the > > Nation; > > > > *IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY* This seventeenth day of November, 1956 do > > Hereby Adopt Enact and Give to ourselves this constitution. > > > > *PART I* > > *PRELIMINARY* > > > > 1. (1) this Constitution may be called the Constitution of Jammu and > > Kashmir. > > > > (2) This section and sections 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 158 shall come into > > force > > et once and the remaining provisions of this constitution shall come > > into > > force on the twenty-sixth day of January, 1957, which day is referred to > > in > > this Constitution as the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > 2. (I) In this Constitution, unless the context other-wise > > requires. > > > > (a) "Constitution of India" means the Constitu-tion of India as > > applicable > > in relation to this State. > > > > (b) "existing law" means any law, ordinance, order bye-law, rule > > notification; or regulation based, made or issued before the > > commence-ment > > of this Constitution by the Legislature or other competent authority or > > person hav-ing power to pass. make or issue such law, ordinance, order > > bye-law rule, notification or regulation; > > > > (c) "Part" means a part of this Constitution; > > > > (d) "Schedule" means a schedule to this Constitution; and > > > > (e) "taxation" includes the imposition of any tax or impost, whether > > general > > or local or special, and "tax" shall be construed accordingly. > > > > (2) Any reference in this Constitution to Acts or laws of the State > > Legislature shall be construed as in-cluding a reference to an > > Ordianance > > made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > *PART II* > > *THE STATE* > > > > (3) The State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of > > the > > Union of India. > > > > (4) The territory of the State shall comprise all the territories which > > on > > the fifteenth day of August, 1947, were under the sovereignty or > > suzerainty > > of the Ruler of the State. > > > > (5) The executive and legislative power of the State extends to all > > matters > > except those with respect to which Parliament has power to make laws for > > the > > State under the provisions of the Constitution of India. > > > > *PART III* > > *PERMANENT RESIDENTS* > > > > (6) (l) Every person who is, or is deemed to be, a citizen of India > > under > > the provisions of the Constitution of India shall be a permanent > > resident of > > the State, if on the fourteenth day of May, 1954. > > > > (a) he was a State subject of class I or of class II: or > > > > (b) having lawfully acquired immovable pro-perty in the State, he has > > been > > ordinarily resident in the State for not less than ten years prior to > > that > > date. > > > > (2) Any person who, before the fourteenth day of May, 1954 was a State > > subject of Class I or of Class II and who, having migrated after the > > first > > day of March, 1947, to the territory -now included in Pakistan, returns > > to > > the State under a permit for resettlement in the State or for permanent > > return issued by or under the authority of any law made by the State > > Legislature shall on such return be a permanent resident of the State. > > > > (3) In this section, the expression "State subject of Class I or of > > Class > > II" shall have the same -meaning as the State Notification No I-L/84 > > dated > > the twentieth April. '1927, read with State Notification No 13/L dated > > the > > twenty- seventh June, 1932. > > > > 7. Unless the context otherwise requires, all referen-ces in any > > existing > > law to hereditary State subject or to State subject of class I or of > > Class > > II or of class III shall be construed as references to perma-nent > > residents > > of the State. > > > > 8. Nothing in foregoing provisions of this part shall derogate from the > > power of the State legislature to make any law defining the classes the > > persons who are, or shall be permanent residents of the State. > > > > 9. A Bill marking provision for any of the following matters, namely. > > > > (a) defining or altering the definition of, the classes of persons who > > are, > > or shall be, per-manent residents of the State; > > > > (b) conferring on permanent residents any special rights or privileges; > > > > (c) regulating or modifying any special rights or privileges enjoyed by > > permanent residents; > > shall be deemed to be passed by either House of the Legislature only if > > It > > is passed by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total > > membership > > of that House. > > > > 10. The permanent residents of the State shall have all the rights > > guaranteed to them under the Constitution of India. > > > > *PART IV* > > *DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF STATE POLICY* > > > > 11. In this part, unless the context otherwise requires, the State > > includes > > the Government and the Legis-lature of the State and all local or other > > authori-ties within the territory of the State or under the control of > > the > > Government of the State. > > > > 12. The provisions contained in this Part shall not be enforceable by > > any > > court, but the principles therein laid down are nevertheless fundamental > > in > > the governance of the State and it shall be the duty of the State to > > apply > > these principles in making laws. > > > > 13. The prime object of the State consistent with the ideals and > > objectives > > of the freedom movement envisaged in "New Kashmir" shall be the > > pro-motion > > of the welfare of the mass of the people by establishing and preserving > > a > > socialist order of society wherein all exploitation of man has been > > abolished and wherein justice-social, economic and political-shall > > inform > > all the institutions of natio-nal life. > > > > 14. Consistently with the objectives outlined in the foregoing section, > > the > > State shall develop in a planed manner the productive forces of the > > coun-try > > with a view to enriching the material and cul-tural life of the people > > and > > foster and protect. > > > > (a) the public sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by the > > State; > > > > (b) the co-operative sector where the means of > > production are co-operatively owned by indi-viduals or groups of > > individuals; and > > > > (c) the private sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by an > > individual or a corpora-tion employing labour, provided that the > > operation > > of this sector is not allowed to result in the concentration of wealth > > or of > > the means of production to the common detriment. > > > > 15. The State shall endeavour to organise and develop agriculture and > > animal > > husbandry by bringing to the aid of the cultivator tile benefits of > > modern > > and scientific research and techniques so as to ensure a speedy > > improvement > > in the standard of living as also the prosperity of the rural masses. > > > > 16. The State shall take steps to organise village panchayats and endow > > them > > with such powers and authority as may be necessary to enable them to > > function as units of self-government. > > > > 17. The State shall, in order to rehabilitate, guide and promote the > > renowned crafts and cottage indus-tries of the State, initiate and > > execute > > well consi-dered programmes for refining and modernising techniques and > > modes of production, including the employment of cheap power so that > > unnece-ssary drudgery and toil of the workers are elimi-nated and the > > artistic value of the products en-hanced, while Else fullest scope is > > provided for the encouragement and development of individual talent and > > initiative. > > > > 18. The State shall lake steps to separate the judiciary from the > > executive > > in the public-services, and shall seek to secure a judicial system which > > is > > humane, cheap, certain, objective and impartial, whereby justice shall > > be > > done and shall be seen to be done and shall further strive to ensure > > efficiency, im-partiality and incorruptibility of its various organs of > > justice, administration and public utility. > > > > 19. The State shall, within the limits of its economic capacity and > > development, make effective provi-sion for securing: > > > > (a) that all permanent residents, man and women equally, have the right > > to > > work, that is, the right to receive guaranteed work with pay-ment for > > labour > > in accordance with its quan-tity and quality subject to a basic minimum > > and > > maximum wage established by law; > > > > (b) that the health and strength of workers, men and women and the > > tender > > age of children are not abused and that permanent residents are not > > forced > > by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, age or > > strength; > > > > (c) that all workers, agricultural or otherwise have reasonable, just > > and > > humane conditions of work with full enjoyment of leisure and social and > > cultural opportunities, and > > > > (d) that all permanent residents have adequate maintenance in old age as > > > > well as in the event of sickness, disablement unemployment and other > > cases > > of undeserved want by providing social insurance, medical aid, > > hospitals, > > sana-toria and health resorts at State expense. > > > > 20. The State shall endeavour: > > > > (a) to secure to every permanent resident the right to free education > > upto > > the University standard; > > > > (b) to provide, within a period often years from the commencement of > > this > > constitution, com-pulsory education for all children until they complete > > the > > age of fourteen years; and > > > > (c) to ensure to all workers and employees ade-quate facilities for > > adult > > education and part -time technical, professional and vocational courses. > > > > 21. The State shall strive to secure: > > > > (a) to all children the right to happy childhood with adequate medical > > care > > and attention; and > > > > (b) to all children and youth equal opportunities in education and > > employment, protection against exploitation, and against moral or > > material > > abandonment. > > > > 22. The State shall endeavour to secure to all women: > > > > (a) the right to equal pay for equal work; > > > > (b) the right to maternity benefits as well as ade-quate medical care in > > all > > employments; > > > > (c) the right reasonable maintenance, extending to cases of married > > women > > who have been divorced or abandoned; > > > > (d) the right to full equality in all social, educa-tional, political > > and > > legal matters; and > > > > (e) special protection against discourtesy, defama-tion, hoolganism and > > other forms of miscon-duct. > > > > 23. The State shall guarantee to the socially and edu-cationally > > backward > > sections of the people special care in the promotion of their > > educational, > > mate rial and cultural interests and protection against social > > injustice. > > > > 24. The State shall make every effort to safeguard and promote the > > health of > > the people by advancing public hygiene and by prevention of disease > > through > > sanitation, pest and vermin control, propaganda and other measures, and > > by > > ensuring widespread, efficient and free medical services throughout the > > State and, with particular emphasis, in its remote and backward regions. > > > > > > 25. The State shall combat ignorance, superstition, fanaticism, > > communialism, racialism, cultural > > backwardness and shall seek to foster brotherhood and equality among all > > communities under the aegis of a secular State. > > > > *PART V* > > *THE EXECUTIVE* > > *THE SADAR-I-RIYASAT* > > > > 26. (1) The Head of the State shall be designated as the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > (2) The executive power of the State shall be vested in the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > and shall be exercised by him either directly or through officers > > subordinate to him in accordance with this Constitution. > > > > (3) Nothing in this Section shall: > > > > (a) be deemed to transfer to the Sadar-i--Riyasat any functions > > conferred by > > any existing law on any other authority; or > > > > (b) prevent the State legislature from confer-ring by law functions on > > any > > authority subordinate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > 27. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be the person who for the time being is > > recognised by the President as such: > > Provided that no person shall be so recognised unless he: > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the state; > > (b) is not less than twenty-five years of age; and > > (c) has been elected as Sadar-i-Riyasat by a majority of the total > > membership of the Legislative Assembly in the manner set out in the > > First > > Schedule. > > > > 28. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office during the pleasure of the > > President. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may, be writing under his hand addressed to the > > > > President, resign his office. > > > > (3) Subject to the foregoing provision of this section, the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > shall hold office for a term of five years from the date on which he > > enters > > upon his office: > > > > Provided that he shall notwithstanding the expiration of his term, > > continue > > to hold office until his successor enters upon his offlee. > > > > 29. A person who holds or has held office as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, > > subject > > to the other provisions of this Constitution, be eligible for > > reselection to > > that office. > > > > 30. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be a member of either House of > > Legislature and if a member of either House be elected and recognised as > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, he shall be deemed to have vacated his seat in the > > House on > > the date on which he enters upon his office as Sadar-I-Riyasat. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not hold any other office of profit. > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be entitled to such emoluments, allowances > > and > > privileges as are specified in the second schedule. > > > > (4) The emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be > > diminished during his term of office. > > > > 31. The Sadar-i-Riyasat and every person acting as Sadar-i-Riyasat > > shall, > > before entering upon his office, make and subscribe in the presence of > > the > > Chief Justice of the High Court, or in his absence, the senior-most > > judge of > > the High Court available, in an oath or affirmation in the following > > form > > that is to sayed "I, A. B., do swear in the name of God that I will > > faithfully discharge the functions of the Sadar-I-Riyasat of Jammu and > > Kashmir and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect and defend > > the > > Constitution and the law and that I will devote myself to the service > > and > > well being of the people of State." > > > > 32. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be removed from his office by the President > > if > > an address by the Legis-lative Assembly supported by a majority of not > > less > > than two-thirds of its total membership is presented to the president > > praying for such removal on the ground of violation of the Constitution. > > > > > > 33. When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by reason > > of > > his death, resignation or removal or when the Sadar-i-Riyasat is unable > > to > > discharge his functions owing to absence, illness or or any other cause, > > the > > functions of the office shall, until the assumption of office by a newly > > elected Sadar-i-Riyasat or the resumption of duties by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > as the case may be, dis-charged by such person as the President may on > > the > > recommendation of the Council of Ministers of the State, recognise as > > the > > acting Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > 34. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall have the power to grant pardons, > > reprieves, > > respites or remissions of punish-ment or to suspend, remit or commute > > the > > sentence of any person convicted of any offense against any law relating > > to > > a matter to which the executive power of the State extends. > > > > *THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS* > > > > 35. (1) There shall be a council of Ministers with the Prime Minister at > > the > > head to aid and advise the Sadar-i-Riyasat in the exercise of his > > functions. > > > > All functions of the Sadar-i-Riyasat except those under sections 36, 38 > > and > > 92 shall be exercised by him only on the advice of the Council of > > Ministers. > > > > (3) The question whether any, and if so what, advice was tendered by > > Ministers to the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be inquired into in any > > court. > > > > 36. The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and the > > > > other Ministers shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the advice > > of > > The Prime Minister. > > > > 37. (1) The Council of Ministers shall be collectively responsible to > > the > > Legislative Assembly. > > > > (2) A Minister who for any period of six conse-cutive months is not a > > member > > of either House of Legislature shall upon the expiry of that period > > cease to > > be a Minister. > > > > 38. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may on the advice of the Prime Minister appoint > > from > > amongst the members of either House of Legislature such number of Deputy > > > > Ministers as may be necessary. > > > > 39. The Ministers and the [Deputy Ministers shall hold office during the > > pleasure of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > 40. Before a Minister or a Deputy Minister enters upon lids office, the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or, in his absence, any person authorised by him, shall > > administer to the Minister or the Deputy Minister to oaths of office and > > of > > secrecy according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > > Schedule. > > > > 41. The salaries and allowances of Ministers and Deputy Ministers shall > > be > > such as the Legislature relay from time to time by law determine and, > > until > > so determined, shall be such as are payable respectively to the > > Ministers > > and the Deputy Ministers under the Jammu and Kashmir Minister s Salaries > > Act, 1956 (Act VI of 1956) the Jammu and Kashmir Minister's Travelling > > Allowances Rules for the time being in force, and the Jaminu and Kashmir > > > > Deputy Ministers Salaries and Allowances Act. S. 2010 (Act VIII of > > S.2010) > > > > *THE ADVOCATE GENERAL* > > > > 42. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall appoint a person who is qualified to > > be > > appointed a Judge of the High Court, to be Advocate General for the > > State. > > > > (2) It shall be the duty of the Advocate General to give advice to the > > Government upon such legal matters and to perform such other duties of a > > legal character, as may from time to time be referred or assigned to him > > by > > the Govern-ment, and to discharge the functions conferred on him by or > > under > > this Constitution or any other law for the time being in force. > > > > (3) In the performance of his duties, the Advocate General shall have > > the > > right of audience in all courts in the State. > > > > (4) The Advocate General shall hold office during the pleasure of the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and receive such remuneration as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > determine. > > > > *CONDUCT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS* > > > > 43. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall make rules for the more > > convenient transaction of the business of the > > Government of the State and for the allocation > > among Ministers of the said business. > > > > 44. It shall be the duty of the Prime Minister > > > > (a) to communicate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat all decisions of the council > > of > > Ministers relating to the administration of the affairs of the State and > > proposals for legislation; > > > > (b) to furnish such information relating to the administration of the > > affairs of the State and proposals for legislation as the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > may call for; and > > > > (c) if the Sadar-i-Riyasat so rqeuires to submit for the consideration > > of > > the Council of Ministers any matter on which a decision has been taken > > by a > > Minister but which has not been considered by the Council. > > > > 45. (1) All executive action of the Government shall be expressed to be > > taken in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat of the Jammu and Kashmir. > > > > (2) Orders and other instruments made and executed in the name of the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or of the Government of Jammu and Kashmir shall be > > authenticated in such manner as may be specified in the rules to be made > > be > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and the validity of an order or instrument which is > > so > > authenticated shall not be called in question on the ground that it is > > not > > an order or instrument made or executed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat or as the > > > > case may be, by the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.** > > > > *PART VI* > > *THE STATE LEGISLATIVE*** > > > > *COMPOSITION OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > 46. There shall be Legislature for the State which shall consist of the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and two Houses be known respectively as the Legislative > > Assembly and the Legislative Council. > > > > 47. (1) The Legislative Assembly shall consist of one hundred members > > chosen > > by direct election from territorial constituencies in the State; > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, if he is of opinion that women > > are > > not adequately represented in the Assembly nominate not more than two > > women > > to be members thereof. > > > > (2) For the purposes of sub-section (I), the State shall be divided into > > > > territorial constituencies in such a manner that the ratio between the > > population of each constituency and the number of seats allotted to it > > shall, so far as practicable, be the same throughout the State. > > Explanation: > > In this sub-section, the express-ion "Population' means the population > > as > > ascertained at the last preceding census of which the relevant figures > > have > > been published. > > > > (3) Upon the completion of each census, the number, extent and > > boundaries of > > the territor-ial constituencies shall be readjusted by such authority > > and in > > such manner as the Legislature may be law determine: > > Provided that such readjustment shall not affect representation in the > > Legislative Assemb until the disolution of the then exist-ing Assembly. > > > > 48. Notwithstanding anything contained in section 47, until the area of > > the > > State under the occuptions of Pakistan ceases to so occupied and the > > people > > residing in that area elect their representatives > > > > (a) twenty-five seats in the Legislative Assembly shall remain vacant > > and > > shall not be taken into account for reckoning the total member-ship of > > the > > Assembly; and the said area shall be excluded in delimiting the > > territorial > > Constituencies Under Section 47. > > > > 49. (I) There shall be reserved in the Lagislative Assembly for the > > Scheduled Castes in the State a number of seats which shall bear, as > > nearly > > as may be, the same proportion to the total number of seats in the > > Assembly > > as the popu-lation of the Scheduled Castes bears to the population of > > the > > State. > > > > Explanation: In this sub-section: > > > > (a) "population" has the same meaning as in sub-section (2) of section > > 47; > > and > > (b) "Scheduled Castes" means the caste, races or tribes or part of, or > > groups within castes, races or tribes which are for the purposes of the > > Constitution of India deemed to be Scheduled Casts in relation to the > > State > > under the pro-visions of article 341 of that Constitution. > > > > (2) The provisions of sub-section (1) shall cease to have effect on the > > expiration of a period of five years from the commencement of this > > Constitution: > > > > Provided that such cesser shall not affect any representation in the > > Legislative Assembly until the dissolution of the then existing > > Assembly: > > > > 50. (1) The Legislative Council shall consist of thirty six members, > > chosen > > in the manner provided in this section. > > > > (2) Eleven members shall be elected by the men hers of the Legislative > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of > > Kashmir > > and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > > > (3) Eleven members shall be elected by the mem-bers of the Legislative > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of Jammu > > and > > are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > Provided that of the members so elected, at least one shall be a > > resident of > > Doda District and at least one shall be a resident of Poonch District. > > > > (4) One member shall be elected by each of the following electorates, > > namely > > > > (a) the members of municipal council, town area committees and notified > > area > > com-mittees in the Province of Kashmir; > > > > (b) the members of municipal council, town area committees, and notified > > area committees in the Province of Jammu; > > > > (c) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged > > in > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the > > Province of Kashmir; and > > > > (d) permanent residents who have been for at least three years engaged > > in > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in the > > > > Province of Jammu. > > > > (5) Two members shall be elected by each of the following electorates, > > namely: > > > > (a) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > > Province of Kashmir as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify; and > > > > (b) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > > Province of Jammu as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > > > (6) Six members shall be nominated by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, not more than > > > > three of whom shall be person belonging to any of the socially or > > economically backward classes in the State, and the others shall be > > persons > > having special knowledge or practical experi-ence in respect of matters > > such > > as literature, science, art, co-operative movement and social service. > > > > (7) Elections under sub-section (2) and (3) shall be held in accordance > > with > > the system of pro-portional representation by means of the single > > transferable vote. > > > > *GENERAL PROVISIONS* > > > > 51. A person shall not be qualified to be chosen to fill a seat in the > > Legislature unless he: > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the State; > > > > (b) is, in the case of a seat in the Legislative Assembly, not less than > > > > twenty-five years of age, and in the case of a seat in the Legisla-tive > > Council, not less than thirty years of age; and > > > > (c) possesses such other qualifications as may be prescribed in that > > behalf > > by or under any law made by Legislature. > > > > 52. (1) The Legislative Assembly, unless sooner dis-solved, shall > > continue > > for five years from the date appointed for its first meeting and not > > longer, > > and the expiration of the said period of five years shall operate as a > > dissolution of the Assembly; > > Provided that the said period may, while a Proclamation of Emergency > > issued > > under arti-cle 352 of the Constitution of India is in operation, be > > extended > > by the State Legislature by law for a period not exceeding one year at a > > > > time and not extending in any case beyond a period of six months after > > the > > Proclamation has ceased to operate. > > > > (2) The Legislative Council shall not be subject to dissolution but as > > nearly as possible one-third of the members thereof shall retire, as > > soon as > > may be, on the expiration of every second year in accordance with the > > provisions made in that behalf by Legislature by law. > > > > 53. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall from time to time summon each House of > > the > > Legislature to meet at such time and place as he thinks fit, but six > > months > > shall not intervene between its last sitting in one session and the date > > appointed for its first sitting in the next session. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may from time to time... > > > > (a) prorogue the House or either house (b) dissolve the Legislative > > Assembly. > > > > 54. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may address either House of Legislature, or > > both > > Houses assembled together, and may for that purpose require the > > attendance > > of members. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may send messages to either House, whether with > > respect to a Bill then bending in the Legislature, or otherwise and a > > House > > to which any message is so sent shall with all convenient dispatch > > consider > > any matter required by the message to be taken into consideration. > > > > 55. (1) At the commencement of the first session after each general > > election > > to the Legislative Assembly and at the commencement of the first session > > of > > each year, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall address both Houses of Legislature > > assembled together and inform the Legislature of the cause of its > > summons. > > > > (2) Provision shall be made by the rules regulating the procedure of > > either > > House for the allot-ment of time for discussion of the matters reffered > > to > > in such address. > > > > 56. Every Minister and the Advocate General shall have the right to > > speak > > in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings, of both Houses and to > > speak in, and otherwise to to take part in the proceedings of, any > > Committee-of the Legislature of which he may be named a member, but > > shall > > not, by virtue of this section, be entitled to vote. > > > > *OFFICERS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > 57. The Legislative Assembly shall, as soon as may be, choose two > > members of > > the Assembly to be res-pectively Speaker and Deputy Speaker thereof and, > > so > > often at office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant, the > > Assembly > > shall choose another member to be Speaker, or Deputy Speaker, as the > > case > > may be. > > > > 58. A member holding office as Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the > > Legislative > > Assembly: > > > > (a) shall vacate his office if he ceases to be a member of the Assembly; > > > > (b) may at any time by writing under his hand addressed, if such member > > is > > the Speaker, to the Deputy Speaker, and if such member is the Deputy > > Speaker, to the Speaker, resign his office; and > > > > (c) may be removed from his office by a resolu-tion of the Assembly > > passed > > by a majority of all the then members of the Assembly; > > > > Provided that no resolution for the purpose of clause (c) shall be moved > > unless at least fourteen days notice has been given of the intention to > > move > > the resolution. > > > > Provided further that, whenever the Assembly is dissolved, the Speaker > > that > > not vacate his office until immediately before the first meeting of the > > Assembly after the dissolution. > > > > 59. (1) While the office of Speaker is vacant the duties of the office > > shall > > be performed by the Deputy Speaker or, if the office of the Deputy > > Speaker > > is also vacant, by such member of the Assembly as the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > may > > appoint for the purpose. > > > > (2) During the absence of the Speaker from any sitting of the Assembly > > the > > Deputy speaker or, if he is also absent, such person as may be > > determined by > > the rules of procedure of the Assembly, or, if no such person is > > present, > > such other person as may be determined by the Assembly, shall act as > > Speaker. > > > > 60. (1) At any sitting of the Legislative Assembly, while any resolution > > for > > the removal of the Speaker from his office is under consideration, the > > Speaker, or while any resolution for the removal of the Deputy Speaker > > from > > his office is under consideration, the Deputy Speaker shall not, though > > he > > is present, preside and the provisions of sub-section (2) of section 59 > > shall apply inrelation to every such sitting as they apply in relation > > to a > > sitting from which the Speaker or, as the case may be, the Deputy > > Speaker is > > absent. > > > > (2) The Speaker shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to take > > part > > in the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly while any resolu-tion for > > his > > removal from office is under con-sideration in the Assembly and shall, > > notwith-standing anything in section 67, be entitled to vote only in the > > first instance on such resolu-tion or on any other matter during such > > pro-ceedings but not in the case of an equality of votes. > > > > 61. (1) The Legislative Council shall, as soon as may be, choose two > > members > > of the Council to be respectively Chairman and Deputy Chairman thereof > > and, > > so often as the office of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman becomes > > vacant, > > the Council shall choose another member to be Chairman or Deputy > > Chairman, > > as the case may be. > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 58,59 and 60 shall apply in relation to > > the > > Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council with the > > substitution of the words "Chairman" and "Council" for the words > > "Speaker" > > and "Assembly" respectively wherever they occur in those provisions, and > > with the omission of the further proviso to section 58. > > > > 62. There shall be pay to the speaker and the the Deputy Speaker of the > > > > Legislative Assembly and to the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the > > Legislative Council, such salaries and allowances as may be respectively > > fixed by Legislature by law and, until provi-sion in that behalf is so > > made, > > such salaries and allowances as are specified in the Third Schedule. > > > > 63. (1) Each House of the Legislature shall have a separate secretarial > > Staff: > > > > Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as > > preventing > > the creation of posts common to both Houses. > > > > (2) The Legislature may by law regulate the re-cruitment, and the > > conditions > > of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of each House. > > > > (3) Until provision is made by the Legislature under sub-section (2), > > the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may, after consultation with the Speaker of the > > Legislative > > Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case may be, > > make rules regulating the recruitment, and the con-ditions of service of > > > > persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of the Assembly or the > > Council, > > and any rules so made shall have effect subject to the provisions of any > > law > > made under the said sub-section. > > > > *CONDUCT OF BUSINESS* > > > > 64. Every member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative Council > > shall before taking his seat, make and sub-scribe before the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > or some person appointed in that behalf by him an oath or affirmation > > according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. > > > > 65. Save as otherwise provided by the rules of proce-dure of the House, > > the > > quorum to constitute a meeting of the Legislative Assembly and of the > > Legislative Council shall be twenty and ten re-spectively. > > > > 66. A House of the Legislature shall have power to act notwithstanding > > any > > vacancy in the membership thereof, and any proceedings in the > > Legislature > > shall be valid notwithstanding that it is discovered subsequently that > > some > > person who was not entitl-ed so to do sat or voted or otherwise took > > part in > > the proceedings. > > > > 67. (1) Save as otherwise provided in this Constitu-tion, all questions > > at > > any sitting of a House of the Legislature shall be determined by a > > majority > > of votes of the members present and voting, other than the Speaker or > > Chairman, or person acting as such. > > > > (2) The Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such, shall not vote in > > the > > first instance, but shall have and exercise a casting vote in the case > > of an > > equality of votes. > > > > *DISQUALIFICATIONS OF MEMBERS*** > > > > 68. (1) No person shall be a member of both Houses of the Legislature > > and > > provision shall be made by Legislature by law for the vacation by a > > person > > who is chooser a member of both Houses of his seat in one House or the > > other. > > > > (2) If a member of a House of the Legislature resigns his seat by > > writing > > under his hand addressed to tile Speaker or the Chairman, as the case > > may > > be, his s at shall thereupon become vacant. > > > > (3) If for a period of sixty days a member of a House of the Legislature > > is > > without permission of the House absent from all meetings thereof, the > > House > > may declare his seat vacant: > > > > Provided that in computing the said period of sixty days no account > > shall be > > taken of: > > > > (a) such absence caused by reason beyond his control; or > > > > (b) any period during which the House is prorogued or is adjourned for > > more > > than four consecutive days. > > > > 69. (1) A person shall be disqualified for being chosen and for being a > > member of the Legislative Assembly or Legislative Council: > > > > (a) if he holds any office of profit under the Government of India or > > the > > State Govern-ment within the Union of India, other than an office > > declared > > by Legislature by law not to dis-qualify its holder; > > > > (b) if he is of unsound mind and stands so declared by a competent > > court; > > > > (c) if he is an undischarged insolvent; > > > > (d) if he is not a permanent resident of the State or has voluntarily > > acquired the citizenship of a foreign State, or is under any > > acknowledgement > > of allegiance to adherence to a foreign State; > > > > (e) if he is so disqualified by or under any law made by the > > Legislature. > > > > (2) For the purposes of this section, a person shall not be deemed to > > hold > > an office of profit under the Government of India, the State Government > > or > > any other State Government vithin the Union of India, by reason only > > that he > > is a Minister, or a Deputy Minister. > > > > 70. (1) If it is represented to the Speaker or the Chairman that a > > member > > of the Legislative Assembly or, as the case may be, of the Legis-lative > > Council is disqualified for being such a member under the provisions of > > section 69, or > > was so disqualified at any time since being chosen as a member and the > > member does not admit that he is or was so disqualified, the question > > shall > > be referred to the High Court decision and its decision shall be final: > > > > Provided that w here the disqualification in question arises from > > circumstances which subsisted at the time of his being chosen as such > > member, no such representation as aforesaid shall be entertained: > > > > (a) unless it is made after the expiration of the period by law for > > presenting an elec-tion petition calling in question the election of the > > member; and > > > > (b) if such an election petition is pending or has been tried, unless > > the > > Speaker or Chairman as the case may be is satisfied that the question of > > the > > members' disquali-fication by reason of those circumstances has not been > > > > raised or, as the case may be, was not raised, in the proceedings on the > > election petition. > > > > (2) Where on a representation made under sub-section (I) the member > > admits > > that he is or w. s disqualified under the provisions of section 69, or > > where > > on a reference made under that sub-section the High Court decides that > > the > > member is or was so disqualified, his seat shall thereupon become > > vacant. > > > > 71. If a person sits or votes as a member of the Legislative Assembly or > > the > > Legislative Council before he has complied with the requirements of > > section > > 54 or when he knows that he is not quali-fied or that he is disqualified > > for > > membership thereof or that he is prohibited from so doing by the > > provisions > > of any law made by the Legislature, he shall be liable in respect of > > each > > day on which he so sits or votes to a penalty of one hundred rupees to > > be > > recovered as a debt due to the State. > > > > *POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND ITS > > MEMBERS* > > > > 72. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the rules > > and > > standing orders regulating the procedure of the Legislature, there shall > > be > > freedom of speech in the Legislature. > > > > (2) No member of the Legislature shall be liable to any proceedings in > > any > > court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in the > > Legislature or any committee thereof and no person shall be so liable in > > respect of the publication by or under the authority of a House of the > > Legislature of any report, paper, votes, or proceedings. > > > > (3) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of a House > > of > > the Legislature and- of the members and the committees of a House of the > > Legislature shall be such as may from time to time be defined by > > Legislature > > by law, and until so defined shall be those of the Parliament of India > > and > > of its members and committees. > > > > (4) The provisions of sub-sections (1), (2) and (3) shall apply in > > relation > > to persons who by virtue of this Constitution have the right t o speak, > > in > > and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of, a House of the > > Legislature > > or any committee thereof as they apply in relation to members of that > > Legislature. > > > > 73. Members of the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council > > shall be > > entitled to receive such salaries and allowances as may from time to > > time be > > determined by Legislature by law and, until provision in that respect is > > so > > made, salaries and allowances at such rates and upon such conditions as > > were > > immediately before the commencement of this Constitution applicable in > > the > > case of members of the Constituent Assembly. > > > > *LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURE* > > > > 74. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 76 and 84 with respect to > > Money Bills and other Finan-cial Bills, a Bill may originate in either > > House > > of the Legislature. > > > > (2) Subject to the provisions of sections 75 and 76 a Bill shall not be > > deemed to have been passed by the Legislature unless it has been agreed > > to > > by both Houses, either without amendment or with such amendments only as > > are > > agreed to by both Houses. > > > > (3) A Bill pending in the Legislature shall not lapse by reason of the > > prorogation of the House or House thereof. > > > > (4) A Bill pending in the Legislative Council which has not been passed > > by > > the Legislative Assembly shall not lapse on a dissolution of the > > Assembly. > > > > (5) A Bill which is pending in the Legislative Assembly or which having > > been > > passed by the Legislative Assembly, is pending in the Legi-slative > > Council, > > shall lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly > > > > 75. (1) If after a Bill has been passed by the Legisla-tive Assembly and > > transmitted to the Legisla-tive Council: > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > (b) more than three months elapse from the date on which the Bill is > > laid > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Legisl-ative Assembly may, > > subject > > to the rules regulating its procedure, pass the Bill again in the same > > or in > > any subse-quent session with or without such amendments, if any, as have > > > > been made suggested or agreed to by the Legislative Council and then > > transmit the Bill as so passed to the Legislative Council. > > > > (2) If after a Bill has been so palmed for the se-cond time by the > > legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council: > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > (b) more shall one month elapses from the date on which the Bill is laid > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; > > > > the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Houses of the > > Legislature in the form in which it passed by the Legislative Assembly > > for > > the second time with such amendments, if any, as have been made or > > suggested > > by the Legislative Council and agreed to by the Legislative Assembly. > > > > (3) Nothing in this section shall apply to a Money Bill. > > > > 76. (1) A Money Bill shall not be introduced in the Legislative Council. > > > > (2) After a Money Bill has been passed by the Legislative Assembly, it > > shall > > be transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommenda-tions and > > the > > Legislative Council shall within a period of fourteen days from the date > > of > > its receipt of the Bill return the Bill to the Legis-lative Assembly > > with > > its recommendations, and the Legislative Assemble may there upon either > > accept or reject all or any of the recom-mendations of the Legislative > > Council. > > > > (3) If the Legislative Assembly accepts any of the recommendations of > > the > > Legislative Council, the Money Bil] shall deemed to have been passed by > > both > > Houses with the amend-ments recommended by the Legislative Coun-cil and > > accepted by the Legislative Assembly. > > > > (4) If the Legislative Assembly does not accept any of the > > recommendations > > of the Legislative Council, the Money Bill shall be deemed to have been > > passed by both Houses in the form which it was passed by the Legislative > > > > Assembly without any of the amendments recommended by the Legislative > > Council. > > > > 5. If a Money Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly and transmitted to > > the > > Legislative Council for its recommendations is not returned to the > > Legislative Assembly within the said period of fourteen days, it shall > > be > > deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the said > > period in the form in which it was passed by the Legislative Assembly. > > > > 77. (1) For the purposes of the part, a Bill shall be deemed to be a > > Money > > Bill if it contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the > > following > > matters namely: > > > > (a) the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of > > any > > tax; > > > > (b) the regulation of the borrowing of money or the giving of any > > guarantee > > by the State, or the amendment of the law with respect to any financial > > obligations under-taken or to be undertaken by the State; > > > > (c) the custody of the Consolidated Fund or the Contingency Fund of the > > State, the payment of money into or the with-drawal of moneys from any > > such > > Fund: > > > > (d) the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the > > State; > > > > (e) the declaring of any expenditure to be expenditure charges on the > > consolidated Fund of the State, or the increasing of the amount of any > > such > > expenditure; > > > > (f) the receipt of money on account of the Consolidated Fund of the > > State or > > the public account of the State or the custody or issue of such money; > > or > > any matter incidental to any of the matters specified in clauses (a) to > > (f). > > > > (2) A Bill shall not be deemed to be a Money Bill by reason only that it > > > > provides for the imposition of fines or other pecuniary penalties or for > > the > > demand or payment of fees for lice-nces or fees for services rendered, > > or by > > reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, > > alteration > > or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local > > purposes. > > > > (3) If any question arises whether a Bill introduced in the Legislature > > is a > > Money Bill or not, the decision of the Speaker of the Legislative > > Assembly > > thereon shall be final. > > > > (4) There shall be endorsed an every Money Bill when it is transmitted > > to > > the Legislative Council under section 76 and when it is pre-sented to > > the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent under section 78, the certificate of the > > Speaker > > of the Legislative Assembly signed by him that it is a Money Bill. > > > > 78. When a Bill has been passed by both Houses of the Legislature, it > > shall > > be presented to the Sadar--i-Riyasat and the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall > > declare > > either that he assents to the Bill or that he with-holds assent > > therefrom. > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, as soon as possible after the > > presentation to him of the Bill for assent, return the Bill if it is not > > a > > Money Bill together with a message requesting that the Houses will > > reconsider the Bill or any specified provisions thereof and, in > > particular, > > will consider the desira-bility of introducing any such amendments as he > > may > > recommend in his message and, when a Bill is so returned, the Houses > > shall > > reconsider the Bill accordingly, and if the Bill is passed again by the > > Houses with or without amendment and presented to the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > for > > assent, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not withhold assent therefrom. > > > > *PROCEDURE IN FINANCIAL MATTERS* > > > > 79. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall in respect of every financial year > > cause > > to be laid before both Houses of the Legislature a statement of the > > estimated receipts and expenditure of the State for that year, in this > > part > > referred to as the "annual financial statement." (2) The estimates of > > expenditure embodied in the annual financial statement shall show > > separately > > > > (a) the sums required to meet expenditure described by this constitution > > as > > expendi-ture charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State; and > > > > (b) the sums required to meet other expendi-ture proposed to be made > > from > > the con-solidated Fund of the State; and shall distinguish expenditure > > on > > revenue account from other expenditure. > > > > (3) The following expenditure shall be expenditure charged on the > > consolidated fund of the State: > > > > (a) the emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and other > > expenditure relating to his office; > > > > (b) the salaries and allowances of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of > > the > > Legislative Assembly and of the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of the > > Legislative Council; > > > > (c) debt charges for which the State is liable including interest, > > sinking > > fund charges and redemption charges. and other expenditure relating to > > the > > raising of loans and the service and redemption of debt; > > > > (d) expenditure in respect of the salaries and allowances of the Judges > > of > > the High Court; > > > > (e) any sums required to satisfy any judge-ment decree or award of any > > Court > > or arbitral tribunal; > > > > (f) any other expenditure declared by this Constitution, or by > > Legislature > > by law, to be so charged. > > > > 80. (1,) So much of the estimates as relates to expen-diture changed > > upon > > the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be submitted to the vote of > > the > > Legislative Assembly, but nothing in this sub-section shall be construed > > as > > preven-ting the discussion in the Legislature of any those estimates. > > > > (2) So much of the said estimates as relates to other expenditure shall > > be > > submitted in the form of demands for grants to the Legislative Assembly, > > and > > the Legislative Assembly shall have power to assent, or to refuse to > > assent, > > to any demand, or to assent to any demand subject to a reduction of the > > amount specified therein. > > > > (3) No demand for a grant shall be made except on the recommendation of > > the > > Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > (1) As soon as may be after the grants under section 80 have been made > > by > > the Assembly, there shall be introduced a Bill to provide for the > > appropriation out of the Consolidated fund of the State of all moneys > > required to meet: > > > > (a) the grants so made by the Assembly; and (b) the expenditure charged > > on > > the Consoli-dated Fund of the State but not exceed-ing in any case the > > amount shown in the statement previously laid before the Houses. > > > > (23 No amendment shall be proposed to any such Bill in either House of > > the > > Legislature which will have the effect of varying the amount or altering > > the > > destination of any grant to made or of varying the amount of any > > expenditure > > charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State, and the decision of the > > person presiding as to whether an amendment is inadmissible under the > > sub-section shall be final. > > > > (3) Subject to the provisions of sections 89 and 83, no money shall be > > withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund of the State except under > > appropriation > > made by law passed in accor-dance with the provisions of this section > > > > 12. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall: > > > > (a) if the amount authorised by any law made in accordance with > > provisions > > of section 81 to be expended for a particular service for the current > > financial year is found to be insufficient for the purposes of that year > > or > > when a need has arisen during the current financial year for > > supplemen-tary > > or additional expenditure upon some new service not contemplated in the > > annual financial statement for that year; or > > > > (b) if any money has been spent on any ser-vice during a financial year > > in > > excess of the amount granted for the service and for that year, cause to > > be > > laid before the Houses of the Legislature another statement showing the > > estimated amount of that expenditure or cause to be presented to the > > Legis-lative Assembly a demand for such excess, as the case may be. > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 79, 80 and 81 shall have effect in > > relation > > to any such statement and expenditure or demand and also to any law to > > be > > made authorising the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated > > Fund of > > the State to meet such expenditure or the grant in respect of such > > demand as > > they have effect in relation to the annual financial state-ment and the > > expenditure mentioned therein or to a demand for grant and the law to be > > > > 'made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the > > Consolidated Fund of the state to meet such expenditure or grant. > > > > 83. (1) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this > > Part, > > the Legislative Assem-bly shall have power: > > > > (a) to make any grant in advance in respect of the estimated expenditure > > for > > a part of any financial year pending the completion of the procedure > > prescribed in section 80 for the voting of such grant and the pas-sing > > of > > the law in accordance with the provisions of section 81 in relation to > > that > > expenditure; > > > > (b) to make a grant for meeting an unexpec-ted demand upon the resources > > of > > the State when on account of the magnitude or the indefinite character > > of > > the services the demand cannot be stated with the details ordinarily > > given > > in an annual financial statement; > > > > (c) to make an exceptional grant which forms no part of the current > > service > > of any financial year; > > and the Legislature shall have power to authorise by law the withdrawal > > of > > moneys from the Consolidated Fund of the State for the purposes for > > which > > the said grants are made. > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 80 and 81 shall have effect in relation > > to > > the making of any grant under sub-section (1) and to law to be made > > under > > that sub-section as they have effect in relation to the making of a > > grant > > with regard to any expenditure mentioned h1 the annual financial > > statement > > and the law to be made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys > > out > > of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure. > > > > 84. (1) A bill or amendment making provision for any of the matters > > specified in clauses (a) to (f) of sub-section (1) of section 77 shall > > not > > be introduced or moved except on the recom-mendation of the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > and a Bill making such provision shall not be introdu-ced in the > > Legislative > > Council: > > > > Provided that no recommendation shall be required under this sub-section > > for > > the moving of an amendment making provision for the reduction or > > abolition > > of any tax. > > > > (2) A Bill or amendment shall not be deemed to make provision for any of > > the > > matters afore-said by reason only that it provides for the. imposition > > of > > fines or other pecuniary penal-ties, or for the demand or payment of > > fees > > for licences or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it > > provides > > for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation of > > any > > tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. > > > > (3) A Bill which, if enacted and brought into operation. would involve > > expenditure from the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be passed > > by a > > House of the Legislature unless the Sadar-i-Riyasat has recommended to > > that > > House the consideration of the Bill. > > > > *PROCEDURE GENERALLY* > > > > 85. (1) A House of the Legislature may make rules for regulating, > > subject to > > the provisions of this Constitution, its procedure and the con-duct of > > its > > business. > > > > (2) Until rules are made under sub-section (1), the rules of procedure > > and > > standing orders in force immediately before the commencement of this > > Constituent Assembly while discharging the functions of the Legislative > > Assembly shall have effect in relation to each House of the Legislature > > subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be made therein by > > the > > Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative > > Council, as the case may be. > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, after consultation with the Speaker of the > > Legislative Assembly and the Chairman of the Legislative Council, may > > make- > > rules as to the procedure with respect to communications between the two > > Houses. > > > > 86. The Legislature may, for the purpose of the timely completion of > > financial business, regulate by law the procedure of, and the conduct of > > > > business in. the House of the Legislature in relation to any financial > > matter or to any Bill for the appropria-tion of moneys out of the > > Consolidated Fund of the State, and, if and so far as any provision of > > any > > law so made is inconsistent with any rule made by either House of the > > Legislature under sub-section (I) of section 85 or with any rule of > > standing > > order having effect in relation to either House of the Legislature under > > > > sub-section (2) of that section such provisions shall prevail. > > > > 87. Business in the Legislature shall be transacted in Urdu or in > > English. > > > > (1) Provided that the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the > > Chairman of > > the Legislative Council or person acting as such, as the case may be, > > may > > permit any member to address the House in Hindi, or if he cannot > > adequa-tely > > express himself in any of the aforesaid languages, to address the House > > in > > his mother-tongue. > > > > (2) The official records of the proceedings in the Legislature shall be > > kept > > in Urdu as well as in English. > > > > (3) The text of all Bills and amendments there of moved in and of all > > Acts > > passed by the Legis-lature which shall be treated as authoritative, > > shall be > > in English. > > > > 88. No discussion shall take place in the Legislature with respect to > > the > > conduct of any Judge of the Supreme Court or of the High Court in the > > discharge of his duties. > > > > 89. (1) The validity of any proceedings in the Legis-lature shall not be > > called in question -on the gro-unds of any alleged irregularity of > > procedure. > > > > (2) No officer or member of the Legislature in whom powers are vested > > by > > or under this Constitution for regulating procedure or the conduct of > > Business, or for maintaining order, in the Legislature shall be subject > > to > > the juris-diction of any court in respect of the exercise by him of > > those > > powers. > > > > 90. No Act of the Legislature and no provision in any such Act shall be > > invalid by reason only that some recommendation required by this > > Constitution was not given, if assent to that Act was given by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > Legislative power of the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > 91. (1) If at any time, except when both Houses of the Legislature are > > in > > session, the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that circumstances exist which > > > > render it necessary for him to take immediate action; he may promulgate > > such > > Ordinances as the circums-tances appear to him to require. > > Provided that the power of making Ordinance under this Section shall > > extend > > only to those matters with respect to which the Legislature has power to > > make laws. > > > > (2) An Ordinance promulgated under this section shall have the same > > force > > and effect as an Act of the Legislature assented to by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > but every such Ordinance: > > > > (a) shall be laid before both the Houses of the Legislature, and shall > > cease > > to operate at the expiration of six weeks from the re-assembly of the > > Legislature, or if be-fore tile expiration of that period a reso-lution > > disapproving it is passed by the Legislative Assembly and agreed to by > > Legislative Council, upon the resolution being agreed to by the > > Legislative > > Coun-cil, and - > > > > (b) may be withdrawn at any time by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > Explanation: - Where the Houses of the Legislature are summoned to > > re-assemble on different dates the period of six weeks shall be reckoned > > from the latter of those dates for the purposes of this sub-section. > > > > Breakdown of Constitutional Machinery. > > > > 92. (1) If at any time the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that a situation > > has > > arisen in which the Government of the State cannot be carried on in > > accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > may > > by Proclamation: > > > > (a) assume to himself all or any of the func-tions of the Government of > > the > > State and all or any of the powers vested in or excercisable by anybody > > or > > authority in the State; > > > > (b) make such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to the > > Sadar-i--Riyasat to be necessary or desirable for giving effect to the > > objects of the Procla-mation, including provisions for suspen-ding in > > whole > > or in part the operation of any provision of this Constitution rela-ting > > to > > any body or authority in the State: > > > > Provided that nothing in this section shall authorised die > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > to assume to himself any of the powers vested in or exer-cisable by the > > High > > Court or to suspend in whole or in part the operation of any provi-sion > > of > > this Constitution relating to the High Court. > > > > (2) Any such Proclamation may be revoked or carried by a subsequent > > Proclamation. > > > > (3) Any such Proclamation whether varied under sub-section (2) or not, > > shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous > > Proclama-tion, > > cease to operate on the expiration of six months from the date on which > > it > > divas first Issued. > > > > (4) If the Sadar-i-Riyasat by a Proclamation under this section assumes > > to > > himself any of the powers of the legislature to make laws, any law made > > by > > him in the exercise of that power shall, subject to the terms thereof, > > continue to have effect until two years have elapsed from the date on > > which > > the Proclamation ceases to have effect, unless sooner repealed or > > re-enacted > > by an Act of the Legislature, and any reference in this Constitution to > > any > > Acts of or laws made by the Legislature shall be construed as including > > a > > reference to such law. No Proclamation under sub-section (1) shall be > > issued > > except with the concurrence of the President of India. > > > > (6) Every Proclamation under this section shall, except where it is a > > Proclamation revoking a previous Proclamation, be laid before each house > > of > > the Legisiature as soon as it is convened. > > > > *PART VII* > > *THE HIGH COURT* > > > > 93. (1) There shall be a High Court for the State, consisting of a Chief > > Justice and two or more other judges. > > > > (2) The High Court exercising jurisdiction in relation to the State > > Immediately before the commencement of this Constitution shall be the > > High > > Court for the State. > > > > 94. The High Court shall be a court of record and shall have all the > > powers > > of such a courts including the power to punish for contempt of itself or > > of > > the courts subordinate to it. > > > > 95. Every Judge of the High Court shall be appointed by the President by > > Warrant under his hand and seal after consultation with the Chief > > Justice of > > India, the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and in the case of appointment of a Judge > > other > > than the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice of the High Court and shall > > hold > > office until he attains the age of sixty years. > > > > 96. A person shall not be qualified for appointment as a Judge of the > > High > > Court unless he is a citizen of India, and: > > > > (a) has for at least ten years held a judicial office in the State or in > > any > > other part of India; or > > > > (b) has for at least ten years been an advocate of the State High Court > > or > > of any other High Court in India or of two or more such courts in > > succession. > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this Section in omputing the period > > during which a person has been an advocate of a High Court. there shall > > be > > included any period during which the person has held judicial office > > after > > he became an advocate. > > > > 97. Every person appointed to be a Judge of the High > > Court, shall. before he enters upon his office, make an subscribe before > > the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him, an oath > > or > > affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > > Schedule. > > > > 98. (1) There shall be paid to the Judges of the High > > Court such salaries as are specified in the Fourth Schedule. > > > > (a) Every Judge shall be entitled to such allowan-ces and to such rights > > in > > respect of leave of absence and pension as may from time to time be > > determined by or under law made by the Legislature, and until so > > determined, > > to such allowances and rights as are specified in the Fourth Schedule: > > > > Provided that neither the allowances of a Judge nor his rights in > > respect of > > leave of absence or pension shall be varied to his dis-advantage after > > his > > appointment: > > > > 99. (1) A Judge of the High Court may, by writing under his hand > > addressed > > to the President, resign his office. > > > > (2) A Judge of the High Court shall not be removed from his office > > except by > > an order of the President passed after an address by each House of the > > Legislature supported by a majority of the total membership of that > > House > > and by a majority of not less than two- thirds of the members of that > > House > > present and voting has been presented to the president > > in the same session for such removal on the > > ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity. > > > > (3) The Legislature may by law regulate the procedure for the > > presentation > > of an address and for the investigation and proof of the misbehaviour or > > incapacity of a Judge under sub-section (2). > > > > 100. (1) When the office of the Chief Justice is vacant or when the > > Chief > > Justice is by reason of absence or otherwise, unable to perform the > > duties > > of his office, the duties of the office shall be performed by such one > > of > > the other > > Judges of the Court as the President may appoint for the purpose. > > > > (2) When any Judge of the High Court other than the Chief Justice is by > > reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the duties > > of > > his office or is appointed to act temporarily as Chief Justice, the > > President may appoint a duly qualified person to act as a Judge of the > > Court > > until the permanent Judge has resumed his duties. > > > > 101. (1) The usual places of sitting of the High Court shall be Jammu > > and > > Srinagar. > > > > (2) The Chief Justice shall, with the approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > determine the number of Judges who shall sit from time to time at Jammu > > and > > at Srinagar for such period as may be deemed necessary. > > > > (3) Whenever it appears to the Chief Justice that it is desirable that > > the > > High Courts should hold its sitting at a place other than Srinagar and > > Jummu, one or more Judges of the High Court as determined by him shall, > > with > > the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, sit at such place. > > > > 102. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the > > provisions of > > any law for the time being in force, the jurisdiction of and the law > > administered in the High Court and the respective powers of the Judges > > thereof in relation to the administration of justice in the court, > > including > > any power to make rules of court and to regulate the sittings of the > > court > > and of members thereof, sitting alone or in Division Courts, shall be > > the > > same as immedia-tely before the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > 103. The High Court shall have power to issue to any person or > > authority, > > including in appropriate cases any Government within the State, > > directions, > > orders or writs. including writs in the nature of habeas corpus, > > mandamus, > > prohibition, quo warranto and certiorari, or any of them. for any > > purpose > > other than those mentioned in clause (2A) of article 32 of the > > Constitution > > of India. > > > > 104. (1) The High Court shall have superintendence and control over all > > courts for the time being subject to its appellate or revisional > > jusrisdic-tion and all such courts shall be subordinate to the High > > Court. > > > > (I) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, the > > High > > court may: > > > > (a) call for returns from such courts, > > > > (b) make and issue general rules and prescribe forms for regulating the > > practice and pro-ceedings of such courts; and > > > > (c) Prescribe forms in which books, entries and accounts shall be kept > > by > > the officers of any such court. > > > > (3) The High Court may also settle tables of fees to be allowed to the > > sheriff and all clerks and officers of such courts and to attorneys, > > advo-cates and pleaders practicing therein: > > Provided that any rules made, forms prescrib-ed or tables settled under > > sub-section (2) or sub-section(3) shall not be inconsistent with the > > provision of any law for the time being in force, and shall require the > > previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > 105. If the High Court is satisfied that a case pending in a court > > subordinate to it involves a substantial question of law as to the > > interpretation of this Constitution or the Constitution of India the > > deter-mination of which is necessary for the disposal of the case, it > > shall > > withdraw the case and may: > > > > (a) either dispose of the case itself; or > > > > (b) determine the said question of law and return the case to the court > > from > > which the case has been so withdrawn together with a copy of its > > judgement > > on such question, and the said court shall on receipt thereof proceed to > > dispose of the case in conformity with such judgement. > > > > 106. No person who had held office as a Judge of the > > High Court after the commencement of this Con-stitution shall plead or > > act > > in any court or before any authority within the State. > > > > 107. (1) The High Court shall have and use as occa-sion may require a > > seal > > bearing a device and impression of the State emblem with an exergue or > > label > > surrounding the same with the inscription: > > > > "The seal of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir'' > > > > (2) The seal shall be delivered to. and kept in the custody of, the > > Registrar or such other officer of the court as the Chief Justice may > > designate in this behalf. > > > > 108. (1) Appointments of officers and servants of the High Court shall > > be > > made by the Chief Justice of the court or such other judge or officer of > > the > > court as he may direct: > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by rule require that in such cases > > as > > may be specified in the rule no person not already attached to the court > > shall be appointed to any office connected with the court save after > > consulta-tion with the State Public Service Commis-sion. > > > > (I) Subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the > > conditions of service of the officers and servants of the High Court > > shall > > be such as may be prescribed by rules made by the High Court with the > > approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > (3) The administrative expenses of the High Court including all > > salaries, > > allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the officers and > > servants of the Court' shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fund of > > the > > State, and any fees or other moneys taken by the Court shall form part > > of > > that Fund. > > > > *SUBORDINATE COURTS* > > > > 109. (1) Appointment of persons to be, and the postings: and promotion > > off > > district judges in the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in > > con-sultation with the High Court. > > (2) A person not already in the service of the : State shall only be > > eligible to be appointed a district judge if he has been for not less > > than > > seven years an advocate or pleader and is recommended by the High Court > > for > > appointment. > > > > 110. Appointment of persons other than district judges to the judicial > > service of the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in accordance > > with > > rules made by him in that behalf after consulation with the Public > > Service > > Commission and with the High Court. > > > > 111. The control over district courts and courts sub-ordinate thereto > > including the posting and promo-tion of, and the grant of leave to, > > persons > > belong-ing to the judicial service of the State and holding any post > > inferior to the post of district judge shall be vested in the High > > Court, > > but nothing in this section shall be construed as taking away from any > > such > > person any right of appeal which he may have under the law regulating > > the > > conditions of his service or as authorising the High Court to deal with > > him > > otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of his service > > prescribed > > under such law. > > > > 112. In this part... > > > > (a) the expression "district judge'' includes additional district judge, > > > > assistant district judge, sessions judge, additional sessions judge and > > assistant sessions judge: > > > > (b) the expression "judical service" means a service consisting > > exclusively > > of persons inten-ded to fill the post of district judge, and other civil > > > > judicial posts inferior to the post of dis-trict judge. > > > > 113. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be public notification direct that the > > foregoing provisions of this part and any rules made thereunder shall > > with > > effect from such date as may be fixed by him in that behalf apply in > > relation to any class or classes of magis-trates in the State as they > > apply > > in relation to any persons appointed to the judicial service of the > > State > > Subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified in the > > notification. > > > > *PART VIII* > > *FINANCE, PROPERTY AND CONTRACTS* > > > > 114. No tax shall be levied or collected except by authority of law. > > > > 115. (1) Subject to the provisions of section 116, all revenues > > received by > > the Government, all loans raised by the Government by the issue of > > treasury bills, loans or ways and means advances and all moneys received > > by > > Government in repayment of loaned shall form one consolidated fund to be > > > > entitled "the Consolidated Fund of the State." > > (2) All other public moneys received by or on behalf of the Government > > shall > > be credited to the public account of the State. > > (3) No moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State shall be > > appropriated except in accordance with law and for the purposes and in > > the > > manner provided in this Constitution. > > > > 116. The Legislature may by law establish a Contingency Fund in the > > nature > > of an impress to be entitled > > "the Contingency Fund of the State" into which shall be paid from time > > to > > time such sums as may be determined by such law, and the said Fund shall > > be > > placed at the disposal of the Sadar-i--Riyasat to enable advances to be > > made > > by him out of such fund for the purposes of meeting unforeseen > > expenditure > > pending authorisation of such expendi-ture by Legislature by law under > > section 82 or 83. > > > > 117. The State may make any grants for any public purpose, > > notwithstanding > > that the purpose is not one with expect to which the Legislature may > > make. > > > > 118. The custody of the Consolidated Fund of the State and the > > Contingency > > Funds of the State, the payment of moneys into such funds, the > > withdrawal of > > moneys therefrom, the custody of public moneys other than those credited > > to > > such Fund received by or on behalf of the Government, their payment into > > the > > public account of the State and the withdrawal of moneys from such > > account > > and all other matters connected with or ancillary to matters aforesaid > > shall > > be regulated by law made by the Legislature and, until provision in that > > behalf is so made, shall be regulated by rules made by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > 119. All moneys received by or deposited with: > > > > (a) any officer employed in connection with the affairs of the State in > > his > > capacity as such, other than revenues or public moneys raised or > > received by > > the Government; or > > > > (b) an, court within the State to the credit of any cause, matter, > > account > > or persons, shall be paid into the public account of the State. > > > > 120. Any property within the State which, if this Constitution had not > > come > > up into operation, would have accrued to the Government or any other > > authority hi the State by escheat or lapse, or as bona-vacantia for want > > of > > a rightful owner, shall vest in the State. > > > > 121. (1) The executive power of the State shall extend, subject to any > > law > > made by the State Legisla-ture, to the carrying on of any trade or > > busi-ness, and to the grant, scale, disposition or mortgage of any > > property > > held for the purposes of the State, and to the purchase or acquisi-tion > > of > > property for those purposes and to the making of contracts. > > > > (2) All property acquired for the purposes of the State shall vest in > > the > > State. > > > > 122. (1) All contracts made in the exercise of the executive power of > > the > > State shall be expressed to be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and all such > > contracts and all assurance of property made in the exercise of that > > power > > shall be executed on behalf of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by such persons and > > in > > such manner as he may direct or authorise. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be personally liable in respect of any > > contract or assurance made or executed for the purposes of this > > Constitution, or for the purposes any of enact-ment relating to the > > Government of the State heretofore in force, nor shall any person making > > or > > executing any such contract or assurance on his behalf be personally > > liable > > in respect thereof. > > > > 123. The Government may sue or be sued by the name of the State of Jammu > > and > > Kashmir and may, subject to any provisions which may be made by Act of > > the > > Legislature enacted by virtue of powers conferred by this Constitution, > > sue > > or be sued in relation to its affairs in the like cases as the State > > might > > have sued or been sued if this Constitution had not been enacted. > > > > *PART IX* > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE* > > > > 124. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may > > by > > law regulate the recruitment and conditions of service of persons > > appointed, > > to public services and posts in connection with the affairs of the > > State: > > > > Provided that it shall be competent for the Sadar--i-Riyasat or such > > person > > as he may direct, to make rules regulating the recruitment and the > > conditions of services of persons appointed, to such services and posts > > until provisions in that behalf is made by or under an Act of the > > Legislature under this section, and any rules so made shall effect > > subject > > to the provisions of any such Act. > > > > 125. (1) Except expressly provided by this Constitution, every person > > who is > > a member of a civil service of the State or holds any civil post > > under the State hold office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > (2) Notwithstanding that a person holding a civil post under the State > > holds > > office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, any contract under > > which > > a person, not being a member of a civil service of the State, is > > appointed > > to hold such a post man, if the Sadar-i-Riyasat deems it necessary in > > order > > to secure the services of a person having special qualifications, > > provide > > for tile payment to him of compensation, if before the expiration of an > > agreed period that post is abolished or he is, for reasons not connected > > with any miscon-duct on his part required to vacate that post. > > > > 126. (1) No person who is a member of a civil service of tile State or > > holds > > a civil post under the State shall be distressed or removed by an > > authority > > subordinate to that by which he was appointed. > > > > (2) No such person as aforesaid shall be dismissed or removed or reduced > > in > > rank until he has been given a reasonable opportunity of show-ing cause > > against the action proposed to be taken in regard to him: > > > > Provided that this sub-section shall not apply: > > > > (a) where a person is dismissed or removed or reduced in rank on the > > ground > > of con-duct which has led to his conviction on a criminal charge; > > > > (b) where an authority empowered to dismiss or remove a person or to > > reduce > > him in rank is satisfied that for some reason, to be recorded by that > > authority in writing, it is not reasonably practicable to give to that > > person an opportunity of showing cause; or > > > > (c) where the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that in the interests of the > > security of the State it is not expedient to give to that person such an > > opportunity. > > > > (3) If any question arises whether it is reasonably > > practicable to give to any person an oppor-tunity of showing cause under > > sub-section. > > > > (4) The decision thereon of the authority empo-wered to dismiss or > > remove > > such person or to reduce him in rank, as the case may be, shall be > > final. > > > > 127. Until other Provisional is made in this behalf under the > > constitution, > > all the laws in force im-mediately before the commencement of this > > Consti-tution and applicable to any public service or any post which > > continues to exist after the commence-ment of this Constitution as > > service > > or post under the- State, shall continue in force so far as consistent > > with > > the provisions of this Constitu-tion. > > > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION* > > > > 128. There shall be a Public Service Commission (here-inafter referred > > to in > > this Part as "the Commi-ssion" for the State. > > > > 129. (1) The Chairman and other members of the Commission shall be > > appointed > > by the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > Provided that as nearly as may be one-half of the members of the > > Commission > > shall be persons who at the dates of their respective appointments have > > held > > office for at least ten years under the Government. > > > > (2) A member of the Commission shall hold office of a terms of five > > years > > from the date on which he enters upon his office or until he attains the > > age > > of sixty-five years, whichever is earlier: > > > > Provided that: > > > > (a) a member of the Commission may, by writing under his hand addressed > > to > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, resign his office > > > > (b) a member of the Commission may be removed from his office in the > > manner > > hereinafter provided. > > > > (3) A person who holds office as a member of the Commission shall on the > > expiration of his term of office, be ineligible for re-appointment to > > that > > office. > > > > 130. (1) Subject to the provisions of sub-section (3), the Chairman or > > any > > other member of the Commission shall only be removed from his office by > > order of the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the ground of misbehaviour after the > > High > > Court on reference being made to it by the Sadar-i--Riyasat, has, on > > inquiry > > held in that behalf, reported that the Chairman or such other member, as > > the > > case may be ought on any such ground to be removed. > > > > The Sadar-i-Riyasat may suspend from office the Chairman or any other > > member > > of the Commission in respect of whom a reference has been made to the > > High > > Court under sub-section (l) until the Sadar-i-Riyasat has passed orders > > on > > receipt of the report of the High Court on such reference. > > > > (3) Notwithstanding anything in sub-section (1) the Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > by > > order remove from office the Chairman or any other mem-ber of the > > Commission > > if the Chairman on. such other member, as the case may be - > > > > (a) is adjudged an insolvent; or > > > > (b) engages during his term of office in any paid employment out side > > the > > duties of his office; or > > > > (c) is, in the opinion of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, unfit to continue in > > office > > by reason of infirmity of mind or body. > > > > (4) If the Chairman or any other member of the Commission is or becomes > > in > > anyway concern-ed or interested in any contract or agreement made by or > > on > > behalf of the Government of the State, the Government of India or the > > Government of any other State in India or participates in anyway in the > > profit thereof or in any benefit or emolument arising therefrom > > otherwise > > than as a member and in common with other members of an incorporated > > company, he shall, for the purposes of sub-section (1), be deemed to be > > guilty misbehavi-our. > > > > 131. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be regulations: > > > > (a) determine the number of members of the Commission and their > > conditions > > of service; and > > > > (b) make provision with respect to the num-ber of members of the staff > > of > > the Commission and - their conditions of service; > > > > Provided that the conditions of service of a member of the Commission > > shall > > not be varied to his disadvantage after his ap-pointment. > > > > 132. On ceasing to hold office the Chairman and the members of the > > Commission shall be ineligible for further office under the Government > > of > > the State, but a member other than the Chairman shall be eligible for > > appointment as a Chairman of the Commission. > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this sec-tion; the office of Minister > > or > > Deputy Minister shall not be deemed to be an office under the Government > > of > > the state. > > > > 133. (1) It shall be the duty of the Commissions to conduct examinations > > for > > appointment to the services of the State. > > > > (2) The Commission shall be consulted - > > > > (a) on all matters relating to methods of recruitment to civil services > > and > > for civil posts; > > > > (b) on the principles to be followed in making appointments to civil > > services and posts and in making promotions and transfers from one > > service > > to another and on the suitability of candidate for such appointments, > > promotions or transfers; > > > > (c) on all disciplinary matters affecting a person serving under the > > Government including memorials or petitions relating to such matters; > > and it shall be the duty of the Commission to advise on any matter so > > referred to them or on any other matter which the Sadar-i--Riyasat may > > refer > > to them: > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may make regulations specifying the > > matters in which either generally, or in any particular class of cases > > or in > > any particular circumstances, it shall not be necessary for the > > Commission > > to be consulted. > > > > (3) Nothing in sub-section (2) shall require the Commission to be > > consulted > > as respects the manner in which a provision may be made by the State for > > the > > reservation of appointment or posts in favour of any class of permanent > > residents which in the opinion of the Govern-ment is not adequately > > represented in the services under the State. > > > > (4) All regulations made under the proviso to sub-section (2) by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be laid for not less than fourteen days before > > each > > House of the Legislature as soon as possible after they made, and shall > > be > > subject to such modifications, whether by way or repeal or amendment, as > > the > > Legislative Assembly may make during the session in which they are so > > laid. > > > > 134. If the office of the Chairman of the Commission becomes vacant or > > if > > the Chairman is by reason of absence or for any other reason unable to > > perform the duties of his office, those duties shall until some person > > appointed under sub-section (1) of section 129 to the vacant office has > > entered on the duties thereof or, as the case may be until the Chairman > > has > > resumed his duties, be performed by such one of the other members of the > > Commission as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may appoint for the purpose. > > > > 135. An Act made by the Legislature may provide for the exercise of > > additional functions by the Commission as respects the services of the > > State > > and also as respects the services of any local authority or other body > > corporate constituted by law or of any public institution. > > > > 136. The expenses of the Commission, including any salaries, allowances > > and > > pensions payable to or in respect of the members or the staff of the > > Com-mission, shall be charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State. > > > > 137. It shall be the duty of the Commission to present annually to the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat a report as to the work done by the Commission and the > > Sadar-I--Riyasat, on receipt of such report, shall cause a copy thereof > > together with a memorandum explai-ning, as respects the cases, if any, > > where > > the advice of the Commission was not accepted, the reasons for such > > non-acceptance to be laid before the Legislature. > > > > *PART X* > > *ELECTIONS* > > > > 138. (1) The superintendence, direction and control of the preparation > > of > > the electoral rolls for, and the conduct of, the elections held under > > Part > > VI shall, be vested in an Election Commissio-ner to be appointed by the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, may, for such period as he may deem necessary > > appoint one or more Deputy Election Commissioners to assist the Election > > Commissioner in the per-formance of the functions conferred by > > sub-section > > (1). > > > > (3) subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, the > > Conditions of service of the Election Commissioner and the Deputy > > Election > > Commissioner shall be such as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > > > (4) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may make acts viable to the Election > > Commissioner > > such staff as may be necessary for the discharge of the functions > > conferred > > on the Election Commissioner by sub-section (1). > > > > 139. There shall be one general electoral roll for every territorial > > constituency for election to either House of the Legislature and no > > person > > shall be ineligible for inclusion in any such roll or claim to be > > inclu-ded > > in any special electoral roll for any such consti-tuency on grounds only > > of > > religion, race, caste, sex or any of them. > > > > 140. The elections to the Legislative Assembly shall be on the basis of > > adult suffrage; that is to say, every person who is a permanent resident > > of > > the State and who is not less than twenty-one years of age on such date > > as > > may be fixed in that behalf by or under any law made by the Legislature > > and > > is not otherwise disqualified under this Constitution or any law made by > > the > > Legislature on the ground of non-residence, unsoundness of mind, crime > > or > > corruptor illegal practice, shall be registered as a voter at any such > > election. > > > > Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may from > > time to time by law make provision with respect to all matters relating > > to, > > or in connection with elections to either House of the Legislature, > > including the preparation of elec-toral rolls, the delimitation of > > constituencies, appointment of election tribunals and all other matters > > necessary for securing the due constitution of the two Houses. > > > > 142. Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution: > > > > (a) the validity of any law relating to the delimita-tion of territorial > > constituencies for the pur-pose of electing members of the Legislative > > Assembly or the allotment of seats to such constituencies, made or > > purporting to be made under section 141, shall not be called in > > ques-tion in > > any court; > > > > (b) no election to either House of the Legislature shall be called in > > question except by an elec-tion petition present to such authority and > > in > > such manner as may be provided for by or under any law made by the > > Legislature. > > > > *PART XI* > > *MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS* > > > > 143. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be answerable to any court for > > the > > exercise of performance of the powers and duties of his office or for > > any > > act done or purposing to be done by him in the exercise and performance > > of > > those -powers and duties. > > > > Provided that nothing in this subjection-sec-tion shall be construed as > > restricting the right of any person to bring appropriate proceed-ings > > against the Government. > > > > (2) No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or continued > > against the Sadar-I--Riyasat in any court during his term of office. No > > process for the arrest or imprisonment of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall > > issue > > from any court during his term of office. > > > > No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > shall be instituted during his term of office in any court in res-pect > > of > > any act done or purporting to be done by him in his personal capacity, > > whether be-fore or after he entered upon his office as Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > until the expiration of two months next after notice in writing has been > > delivered to the Sadar-i-Riyasat or left at his office stating the > > nature of > > the proceedings the cause of action therefor, the name, descri-ption and > > place of residence of the party by whom such proceedings are to be > > instituted and the relief which he claims. > > > > 144. The flag of the State shall be rectangular in shape and red in > > colour > > with three equidistant white vertical stripes of equal with next to the > > staff and a white plough in the middle with the handle facing the > > stripes. > > > > The ratio of the length of the flag to its width shall be 3:2. > > > > 145. The official language of the State shall be Urdu, but the English > > language shall, unless the Legisla-ture by law otherwise provides > > continue > > to be used for all the official purpose of the State for which it was > > being > > used immediately before the com-mencement of this Constitution. > > > > . The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, as soon as may be, after the commencement > > of > > the Constitution establish an Academy of Arts, Culture and Language, > > where > > opportunities will be afforded for the development of Art and Culture of > > the > > State and for the development of Hindi, Urdu and other regional > > languages of > > the State specified in the Sixth Schedule.** > > > > *PART XII* > > *AMENDMENTS OF THE CONSTITUTION* > > > > 147. An amendment of this constitution may be initia-ted only by the > > introduction of a Bill for the pur-pose in the Legislative Assembly and > > when > > the Bill is passed in each House by a majority of not less than > > two-thirds > > of the total membership of at the House, it shall be presented to the > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for his assent and, upon such assent being given to the > > Bill, the Constitution shall stand amended in accordance with the terms > > of > > the Bill: > > > > Provided that a Bill providing for the abolition of the Legislative > > Council > > may be intro-duced in the Legislative Assembly and passed by it majority > > of > > the total membership of the Assembly and by a majority of not less than > > two-thirds of the members of the Assembly present and voting: > > > > Provided further that no Bill or amendment seeking to make any change > > in: > > > > (a) this section; > > > > (b) the provisions of the sections 3 and 5; or > > > > (c) the provisions of the constitution of India as applicable in > > relation to > > the State; > > > > shall be introduced or moved in either house -of the Legislature. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:26:29 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 06:56:29 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956 - Legal Document No 140 In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0712052252i123d9057j767dafbc79c5c38a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0712052245w34827defg5024615bce1465c4@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712052250w58232c42wdf6452400bd62734@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0712052252i123d9057j767dafbc79c5c38a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712052256t5e728a6cu804e0626dc46b174@mail.gmail.com> Aarti Ji , I never said that you in particular are ignorant of these facts . You are highly intelligent and knowledgable . And I am sure there would be few who would be ignorant about these facts. Maybe ,many of them who do not live in India. regards Pawan On 12/6/07, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > And which "facts" does this extract present us with which you claim we are > in ignorance of? Even more interesting, what makes them "facts"? It might be > fruitful to spend some time thinking about the latter... > > On Dec 6, 2007 12:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Aarti , > > > > Sometimes I feel the readers should be fed with some intresting facts > > which are otherwise ignored. > > > > Pawan > > Was your mail intended for me or the group ? > > > > > > > > On 12/6/07, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > Fascinating. But exactly what is this in aid of? > > > > > > best > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > On Dec 4, 2007 11:42 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > *The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956* > > > > Legal Document No 140 > > > > *(Extract)* > > > > > > > > We, the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having solemnly > > > > resolved, > > > > in pursuance of accession of this State to > > > > India which took place on the twenty-sixth day of October, 1947, to > > > > further > > > > define the existing relationship of the State with the Union of > > > > India as an > > > > integral part thereof, and to secure to ourselves. > > > > > > > > *JUSTICE*, social, economic and political; > > > > *LIBERTY* of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > > EQUALITY of > > > > status and of opportunity; and to promote among us all; > > > > *FRATERNITY*, assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity > > > > of the > > > > Nation; > > > > > > > > *IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY* This seventeenth day of November, 1956 > > > > do > > > > Hereby Adopt Enact and Give to ourselves this constitution. > > > > > > > > *PART I* > > > > *PRELIMINARY* > > > > > > > > 1. (1) this Constitution may be called the Constitution of Jammu and > > > > > > > > Kashmir. > > > > > > > > (2) This section and sections 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 158 shall come > > > > into force > > > > et once and the remaining provisions of this constitution shall come > > > > into > > > > force on the twenty-sixth day of January, 1957, which day is > > > > referred to in > > > > this Constitution as the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > > > > > 2. (I) In this Constitution, unless the context other-wise > > > > requires. > > > > > > > > (a) "Constitution of India" means the Constitu-tion of India as > > > > applicable > > > > in relation to this State. > > > > > > > > (b) "existing law" means any law, ordinance, order bye-law, rule > > > > notification; or regulation based, made or issued before the > > > > commence-ment > > > > of this Constitution by the Legislature or other competent authority > > > > or > > > > person hav-ing power to pass. make or issue such law, ordinance, > > > > order > > > > bye-law rule, notification or regulation; > > > > > > > > (c) "Part" means a part of this Constitution; > > > > > > > > (d) "Schedule" means a schedule to this Constitution; and > > > > > > > > (e) "taxation" includes the imposition of any tax or impost, whether > > > > general > > > > or local or special, and "tax" shall be construed accordingly. > > > > > > > > (2) Any reference in this Constitution to Acts or laws of the State > > > > Legislature shall be construed as in-cluding a reference to an > > > > Ordianance > > > > made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > *PART II* > > > > *THE STATE* > > > > > > > > (3) The State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part > > > > of the > > > > Union of India. > > > > > > > > (4) The territory of the State shall comprise all the territories > > > > which on > > > > the fifteenth day of August, 1947, were under the sovereignty or > > > > suzerainty > > > > of the Ruler of the State. > > > > > > > > (5) The executive and legislative power of the State extends to all > > > > matters > > > > except those with respect to which Parliament has power to make laws > > > > for the > > > > State under the provisions of the Constitution of India. > > > > > > > > *PART III* > > > > *PERMANENT RESIDENTS* > > > > > > > > (6) (l) Every person who is, or is deemed to be, a citizen of India > > > > under > > > > the provisions of the Constitution of India shall be a permanent > > > > resident of > > > > the State, if on the fourteenth day of May, 1954. > > > > > > > > (a) he was a State subject of class I or of class II: or > > > > > > > > (b) having lawfully acquired immovable pro-perty in the State, he > > > > has been > > > > ordinarily resident in the State for not less than ten years prior > > > > to that > > > > date. > > > > > > > > (2) Any person who, before the fourteenth day of May, 1954 was a > > > > State > > > > subject of Class I or of Class II and who, having migrated after the > > > > first > > > > day of March, 1947, to the territory -now included in Pakistan, > > > > returns to > > > > the State under a permit for resettlement in the State or for > > > > permanent > > > > return issued by or under the authority of any law made by the State > > > > > > > > Legislature shall on such return be a permanent resident of the > > > > State. > > > > > > > > (3) In this section, the expression "State subject of Class I or of > > > > Class > > > > II" shall have the same -meaning as the State Notification No I-L/84 > > > > dated > > > > the twentieth April. '1927, read with State Notification No 13/L > > > > dated the > > > > twenty- seventh June, 1932. > > > > > > > > 7. Unless the context otherwise requires, all referen-ces in any > > > > existing > > > > law to hereditary State subject or to State subject of class I or of > > > > Class > > > > II or of class III shall be construed as references to perma-nent > > > > residents > > > > of the State. > > > > > > > > 8. Nothing in foregoing provisions of this part shall derogate from > > > > the > > > > power of the State legislature to make any law defining the classes > > > > the > > > > persons who are, or shall be permanent residents of the State. > > > > > > > > 9. A Bill marking provision for any of the following matters, > > > > namely. > > > > > > > > (a) defining or altering the definition of, the classes of persons > > > > who are, > > > > or shall be, per-manent residents of the State; > > > > > > > > (b) conferring on permanent residents any special rights or > > > > privileges; > > > > > > > > (c) regulating or modifying any special rights or privileges enjoyed > > > > by > > > > permanent residents; > > > > shall be deemed to be passed by either House of the Legislature only > > > > if It > > > > is passed by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total > > > > membership > > > > of that House. > > > > > > > > 10. The permanent residents of the State shall have all the rights > > > > guaranteed to them under the Constitution of India. > > > > > > > > *PART IV* > > > > *DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF STATE POLICY* > > > > > > > > 11. In this part, unless the context otherwise requires, the State > > > > includes > > > > the Government and the Legis-lature of the State and all local or > > > > other > > > > authori-ties within the territory of the State or under the control > > > > of the > > > > Government of the State. > > > > > > > > 12. The provisions contained in this Part shall not be enforceable > > > > by any > > > > court, but the principles therein laid down are nevertheless > > > > fundamental in > > > > the governance of the State and it shall be the duty of the State to > > > > apply > > > > these principles in making laws. > > > > > > > > 13. The prime object of the State consistent with the ideals and > > > > objectives > > > > of the freedom movement envisaged in "New Kashmir" shall be the > > > > pro-motion > > > > of the welfare of the mass of the people by establishing and > > > > preserving a > > > > socialist order of society wherein all exploitation of man has been > > > > abolished and wherein justice-social, economic and political-shall > > > > inform > > > > all the institutions of natio-nal life. > > > > > > > > 14. Consistently with the objectives outlined in the foregoing > > > > section, the > > > > State shall develop in a planed manner the productive forces of the > > > > coun-try > > > > with a view to enriching the material and cul-tural life of the > > > > people and > > > > foster and protect. > > > > > > > > (a) the public sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by > > > > the State; > > > > > > > > (b) the co-operative sector where the means of > > > > production are co-operatively owned by indi-viduals or groups of > > > > individuals; and > > > > > > > > (c) the private sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by > > > > an > > > > individual or a corpora-tion employing labour, provided that the > > > > operation > > > > of this sector is not allowed to result in the concentration of > > > > wealth or of > > > > the means of production to the common detriment. > > > > > > > > 15. The State shall endeavour to organise and develop agriculture > > > > and animal > > > > husbandry by bringing to the aid of the cultivator tile benefits of > > > > modern > > > > and scientific research and techniques so as to ensure a speedy > > > > improvement > > > > in the standard of living as also the prosperity of the rural > > > > masses. > > > > > > > > 16. The State shall take steps to organise village panchayats and > > > > endow them > > > > with such powers and authority as may be necessary to enable them to > > > > > > > > function as units of self-government. > > > > > > > > 17. The State shall, in order to rehabilitate, guide and promote the > > > > renowned crafts and cottage indus-tries of the State, initiate and > > > > execute > > > > well consi-dered programmes for refining and modernising techniques > > > > and > > > > modes of production, including the employment of cheap power so that > > > > unnece-ssary drudgery and toil of the workers are elimi-nated and > > > > the > > > > artistic value of the products en-hanced, while Else fullest scope > > > > is > > > > provided for the encouragement and development of individual talent > > > > and > > > > initiative. > > > > > > > > 18. The State shall lake steps to separate the judiciary from the > > > > executive > > > > in the public-services, and shall seek to secure a judicial system > > > > which is > > > > humane, cheap, certain, objective and impartial, whereby justice > > > > shall be > > > > done and shall be seen to be done and shall further strive to ensure > > > > > > > > efficiency, im-partiality and incorruptibility of its various organs > > > > of > > > > justice, administration and public utility. > > > > > > > > 19. The State shall, within the limits of its economic capacity and > > > > development, make effective provi-sion for securing: > > > > > > > > (a) that all permanent residents, man and women equally, have the > > > > right to > > > > work, that is, the right to receive guaranteed work with pay-ment > > > > for labour > > > > in accordance with its quan-tity and quality subject to a basic > > > > minimum and > > > > maximum wage established by law; > > > > > > > > (b) that the health and strength of workers, men and women and the > > > > tender > > > > age of children are not abused and that permanent residents are not > > > > forced > > > > by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, age > > > > or > > > > strength; > > > > > > > > (c) that all workers, agricultural or otherwise have reasonable, > > > > just and > > > > humane conditions of work with full enjoyment of leisure and social > > > > and > > > > cultural opportunities, and > > > > > > > > (d) that all permanent residents have adequate maintenance in old > > > > age as > > > > well as in the event of sickness, disablement unemployment and other > > > > cases > > > > of undeserved want by providing social insurance, medical aid, > > > > hospitals, > > > > sana-toria and health resorts at State expense. > > > > > > > > 20. The State shall endeavour: > > > > > > > > (a) to secure to every permanent resident the right to free > > > > education upto > > > > the University standard; > > > > > > > > (b) to provide, within a period often years from the commencement of > > > > this > > > > constitution, com-pulsory education for all children until they > > > > complete the > > > > age of fourteen years; and > > > > > > > > (c) to ensure to all workers and employees ade-quate facilities for > > > > adult > > > > education and part -time technical, professional and vocational > > > > courses. > > > > > > > > 21. The State shall strive to secure: > > > > > > > > (a) to all children the right to happy childhood with adequate > > > > medical care > > > > and attention; and > > > > > > > > (b) to all children and youth equal opportunities in education and > > > > employment, protection against exploitation, and against moral or > > > > material > > > > abandonment. > > > > > > > > 22. The State shall endeavour to secure to all women: > > > > > > > > (a) the right to equal pay for equal work; > > > > > > > > (b) the right to maternity benefits as well as ade-quate medical > > > > care in all > > > > employments; > > > > > > > > (c) the right reasonable maintenance, extending to cases of married > > > > women > > > > who have been divorced or abandoned; > > > > > > > > (d) the right to full equality in all social, educa-tional, > > > > political and > > > > legal matters; and > > > > > > > > (e) special protection against discourtesy, defama-tion, hoolganism > > > > and > > > > other forms of miscon-duct. > > > > > > > > 23. The State shall guarantee to the socially and edu-cationally > > > > backward > > > > sections of the people special care in the promotion of their > > > > educational, > > > > mate rial and cultural interests and protection against social > > > > injustice. > > > > > > > > 24. The State shall make every effort to safeguard and promote the > > > > health of > > > > the people by advancing public hygiene and by prevention of disease > > > > through > > > > sanitation, pest and vermin control, propaganda and other measures, > > > > and by > > > > ensuring widespread, efficient and free medical services throughout > > > > the > > > > State and, with particular emphasis, in its remote and backward > > > > regions. > > > > > > > > 25. The State shall combat ignorance, superstition, fanaticism, > > > > communialism, racialism, cultural > > > > backwardness and shall seek to foster brotherhood and equality among > > > > all > > > > communities under the aegis of a secular State. > > > > > > > > *PART V* > > > > *THE EXECUTIVE* > > > > *THE SADAR-I-RIYASAT* > > > > > > > > 26. (1) The Head of the State shall be designated as the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > (2) The executive power of the State shall be vested in the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > and shall be exercised by him either directly or through officers > > > > subordinate to him in accordance with this Constitution. > > > > > > > > (3) Nothing in this Section shall: > > > > > > > > (a) be deemed to transfer to the Sadar-i--Riyasat any functions > > > > conferred by > > > > any existing law on any other authority; or > > > > > > > > (b) prevent the State legislature from confer-ring by law functions > > > > on any > > > > authority subordinate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > 27. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be the person who for the time being > > > > is > > > > recognised by the President as such: > > > > Provided that no person shall be so recognised unless he: > > > > > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the state; > > > > (b) is not less than twenty-five years of age; and > > > > (c) has been elected as Sadar-i-Riyasat by a majority of the total > > > > membership of the Legislative Assembly in the manner set out in the > > > > First > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > 28. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office during the pleasure of > > > > the > > > > President. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may, be writing under his hand addressed to > > > > the > > > > President, resign his office. > > > > > > > > (3) Subject to the foregoing provision of this section, the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > shall hold office for a term of five years from the date on which he > > > > enters > > > > upon his office: > > > > > > > > Provided that he shall notwithstanding the expiration of his term, > > > > continue > > > > to hold office until his successor enters upon his offlee. > > > > > > > > 29. A person who holds or has held office as Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, > > > > subject > > > > to the other provisions of this Constitution, be eligible for > > > > reselection to > > > > that office. > > > > > > > > 30. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be a member of either House of > > > > Legislature and if a member of either House be elected and > > > > recognised as > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, he shall be deemed to have vacated his seat in the > > > > House on > > > > the date on which he enters upon his office as Sadar-I-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not hold any other office of profit. > > > > > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be entitled to such emoluments, > > > > allowances and > > > > privileges as are specified in the second schedule. > > > > > > > > (4) The emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not > > > > be > > > > diminished during his term of office. > > > > > > > > 31. The Sadar-i-Riyasat and every person acting as Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > shall, > > > > before entering upon his office, make and subscribe in the presence > > > > of the > > > > Chief Justice of the High Court, or in his absence, the senior-most > > > > judge of > > > > the High Court available, in an oath or affirmation in the following > > > > form > > > > that is to sayed "I, A. B., do swear in the name of God that I will > > > > faithfully discharge the functions of the Sadar-I-Riyasat of Jammu > > > > and > > > > Kashmir and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect and > > > > defend the > > > > Constitution and the law and that I will devote myself to the > > > > service and > > > > well being of the people of State." > > > > > > > > 32. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be removed from his office by the > > > > President if > > > > an address by the Legis-lative Assembly supported by a majority of > > > > not less > > > > than two-thirds of its total membership is presented to the > > > > president > > > > praying for such removal on the ground of violation of the > > > > Constitution. > > > > > > > > 33. When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by > > > > reason of > > > > his death, resignation or removal or when the Sadar-i-Riyasat is > > > > unable to > > > > discharge his functions owing to absence, illness or or any other > > > > cause, the > > > > functions of the office shall, until the assumption of office by a > > > > newly > > > > elected Sadar-i-Riyasat or the resumption of duties by the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > as the case may be, dis-charged by such person as the President may > > > > on the > > > > recommendation of the Council of Ministers of the State, recognise > > > > as the > > > > acting Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > 34. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall have the power to grant pardons, > > > > reprieves, > > > > respites or remissions of punish-ment or to suspend, remit or > > > > commute the > > > > sentence of any person convicted of any offense against any law > > > > relating to > > > > a matter to which the executive power of the State extends. > > > > > > > > *THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS* > > > > > > > > 35. (1) There shall be a council of Ministers with the Prime > > > > Minister at the > > > > head to aid and advise the Sadar-i-Riyasat in the exercise of his > > > > functions. > > > > > > > > All functions of the Sadar-i-Riyasat except those under sections 36, > > > > 38 and > > > > 92 shall be exercised by him only on the advice of the Council of > > > > Ministers. > > > > > > > > (3) The question whether any, and if so what, advice was tendered by > > > > Ministers to the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be inquired into in any > > > > court. > > > > > > > > 36. The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and > > > > the > > > > other Ministers shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the > > > > advice of > > > > The Prime Minister. > > > > > > > > 37. (1) The Council of Ministers shall be collectively responsible > > > > to the > > > > Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > (2) A Minister who for any period of six conse-cutive months is not > > > > a member > > > > of either House of Legislature shall upon the expiry of that period > > > > cease to > > > > be a Minister. > > > > > > > > 38. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may on the advice of the Prime Minister > > > > appoint from > > > > amongst the members of either House of Legislature such number of > > > > Deputy > > > > Ministers as may be necessary. > > > > > > > > 39. The Ministers and the [Deputy Ministers shall hold office during > > > > the > > > > pleasure of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > > > > > 40. Before a Minister or a Deputy Minister enters upon lids office, > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or, in his absence, any person authorised by him, > > > > shall > > > > administer to the Minister or the Deputy Minister to oaths of office > > > > and of > > > > secrecy according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > 41. The salaries and allowances of Ministers and Deputy Ministers > > > > shall be > > > > such as the Legislature relay from time to time by law determine > > > > and, until > > > > so determined, shall be such as are payable respectively to the > > > > Ministers > > > > and the Deputy Ministers under the Jammu and Kashmir Minister s > > > > Salaries > > > > Act, 1956 (Act VI of 1956) the Jammu and Kashmir Minister's > > > > Travelling > > > > Allowances Rules for the time being in force, and the Jaminu and > > > > Kashmir > > > > Deputy Ministers Salaries and Allowances Act. S. 2010 (Act VIII of > > > > S.2010) > > > > > > > > *THE ADVOCATE GENERAL* > > > > > > > > 42. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall appoint a person who is qualified > > > > to be > > > > appointed a Judge of the High Court, to be Advocate General for the > > > > State. > > > > > > > > (2) It shall be the duty of the Advocate General to give advice to > > > > the > > > > Government upon such legal matters and to perform such other duties > > > > of a > > > > legal character, as may from time to time be referred or assigned to > > > > him by > > > > the Govern-ment, and to discharge the functions conferred on him by > > > > or under > > > > this Constitution or any other law for the time being in force. > > > > > > > > (3) In the performance of his duties, the Advocate General shall > > > > have the > > > > right of audience in all courts in the State. > > > > > > > > (4) The Advocate General shall hold office during the pleasure of > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and receive such remuneration as the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > may > > > > determine. > > > > > > > > *CONDUCT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS* > > > > > > > > 43. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall make rules for the more > > > > convenient transaction of the business of the > > > > Government of the State and for the allocation > > > > among Ministers of the said business. > > > > > > > > 44. It shall be the duty of the Prime Minister > > > > > > > > (a) to communicate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat all decisions of the > > > > council of > > > > Ministers relating to the administration of the affairs of the State > > > > and > > > > proposals for legislation; > > > > > > > > (b) to furnish such information relating to the administration of > > > > the > > > > affairs of the State and proposals for legislation as the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > may call for; and > > > > > > > > (c) if the Sadar-i-Riyasat so rqeuires to submit for the > > > > consideration of > > > > the Council of Ministers any matter on which a decision has been > > > > taken by a > > > > Minister but which has not been considered by the Council. > > > > > > > > 45. (1) All executive action of the Government shall be expressed to > > > > be > > > > taken in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat of the Jammu and Kashmir. > > > > > > > > (2) Orders and other instruments made and executed in the name of > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or of the Government of Jammu and Kashmir shall be > > > > authenticated in such manner as may be specified in the rules to be > > > > made be > > > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and the validity of an order or instrument > > > > which is so > > > > authenticated shall not be called in question on the ground that it > > > > is not > > > > an order or instrument made or executed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat or as > > > > the > > > > case may be, by the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.** > > > > > > > > *PART VI* > > > > *THE STATE LEGISLATIVE*** > > > > > > > > *COMPOSITION OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > > > > > 46. There shall be Legislature for the State which shall consist of > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and two Houses be known respectively as the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly and the Legislative Council. > > > > > > > > 47. (1) The Legislative Assembly shall consist of one hundred > > > > members chosen > > > > by direct election from territorial constituencies in the State; > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, if he is of opinion that > > > > women are > > > > not adequately represented in the Assembly nominate not more than > > > > two women > > > > to be members thereof. > > > > > > > > (2) For the purposes of sub-section (I), the State shall be divided > > > > into > > > > territorial constituencies in such a manner that the ratio between > > > > the > > > > population of each constituency and the number of seats allotted to > > > > it > > > > shall, so far as practicable, be the same throughout the State. > > > > Explanation: > > > > In this sub-section, the express-ion "Population' means the > > > > population as > > > > ascertained at the last preceding census of which the relevant > > > > figures have > > > > been published. > > > > > > > > (3) Upon the completion of each census, the number, extent and > > > > boundaries of > > > > the territor-ial constituencies shall be readjusted by such > > > > authority and in > > > > such manner as the Legislature may be law determine: > > > > Provided that such readjustment shall not affect representation in > > > > the > > > > Legislative Assemb until the disolution of the then exist-ing > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > 48. Notwithstanding anything contained in section 47, until the area > > > > of the > > > > State under the occuptions of Pakistan ceases to so occupied and the > > > > people > > > > residing in that area elect their representatives > > > > > > > > (a) twenty-five seats in the Legislative Assembly shall remain > > > > vacant and > > > > shall not be taken into account for reckoning the total member-ship > > > > of the > > > > Assembly; and the said area shall be excluded in delimiting the > > > > territorial > > > > Constituencies Under Section 47. > > > > > > > > 49. (I) There shall be reserved in the Lagislative Assembly for the > > > > Scheduled Castes in the State a number of seats which shall bear, as > > > > nearly > > > > as may be, the same proportion to the total number of seats in the > > > > Assembly > > > > as the popu-lation of the Scheduled Castes bears to the population > > > > of the > > > > State. > > > > > > > > Explanation: In this sub-section: > > > > > > > > (a) "population" has the same meaning as in sub-section (2) of > > > > section 47; > > > > and > > > > (b) "Scheduled Castes" means the caste, races or tribes or part of, > > > > or > > > > groups within castes, races or tribes which are for the purposes of > > > > the > > > > Constitution of India deemed to be Scheduled Casts in relation to > > > > the State > > > > under the pro-visions of article 341 of that Constitution. > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sub-section (1) shall cease to have effect on > > > > the > > > > expiration of a period of five years from the commencement of this > > > > Constitution: > > > > > > > > Provided that such cesser shall not affect any representation in the > > > > Legislative Assembly until the dissolution of the then existing > > > > Assembly: > > > > > > > > 50. (1) The Legislative Council shall consist of thirty six members, > > > > chosen > > > > in the manner provided in this section. > > > > > > > > (2) Eleven members shall be elected by the men hers of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of > > > > Kashmir > > > > and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > (3) Eleven members shall be elected by the mem-bers of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of > > > > Jammu and > > > > are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > > > Provided that of the members so elected, at least one shall be a > > > > resident of > > > > Doda District and at least one shall be a resident of Poonch > > > > District. > > > > > > > > (4) One member shall be elected by each of the following > > > > electorates, namely > > > > > > > > (a) the members of municipal council, town area committees and > > > > notified area > > > > com-mittees in the Province of Kashmir; > > > > > > > > (b) the members of municipal council, town area committees, and > > > > notified > > > > area committees in the Province of Jammu; > > > > > > > > (c) permanent residents who have been for at least three years > > > > engaged in > > > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in > > > > the > > > > Province of Kashmir; and > > > > > > > > (d) permanent residents who have been for at least three years > > > > engaged in > > > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government in > > > > the > > > > Province of Jammu. > > > > > > > > (5) Two members shall be elected by each of the following > > > > electorates, > > > > namely: > > > > > > > > (a) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > > > > Province of Kashmir as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify; and > > > > > > > > > > > > (b) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in the > > > > Province of Jammu as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > > > > > > > (6) Six members shall be nominated by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, not more > > > > than > > > > three of whom shall be person belonging to any of the socially or > > > > economically backward classes in the State, and the others shall be > > > > persons > > > > having special knowledge or practical experi-ence in respect of > > > > matters such > > > > as literature, science, art, co-operative movement and social > > > > service. > > > > > > > > (7) Elections under sub-section (2) and (3) shall be held in > > > > accordance with > > > > the system of pro-portional representation by means of the single > > > > transferable vote. > > > > > > > > *GENERAL PROVISIONS* > > > > > > > > 51. A person shall not be qualified to be chosen to fill a seat in > > > > the > > > > Legislature unless he: > > > > > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the State; > > > > > > > > (b) is, in the case of a seat in the Legislative Assembly, not less > > > > than > > > > twenty-five years of age, and in the case of a seat in the > > > > Legisla-tive > > > > Council, not less than thirty years of age; and > > > > > > > > (c) possesses such other qualifications as may be prescribed in that > > > > behalf > > > > by or under any law made by Legislature. > > > > > > > > 52. (1) The Legislative Assembly, unless sooner dis-solved, shall > > > > continue > > > > for five years from the date appointed for its first meeting and not > > > > longer, > > > > and the expiration of the said period of five years shall operate as > > > > a > > > > dissolution of the Assembly; > > > > Provided that the said period may, while a Proclamation of Emergency > > > > issued > > > > under arti-cle 352 of the Constitution of India is in operation, be > > > > extended > > > > by the State Legislature by law for a period not exceeding one year > > > > at a > > > > time and not extending in any case beyond a period of six months > > > > after the > > > > Proclamation has ceased to operate. > > > > > > > > (2) The Legislative Council shall not be subject to dissolution but > > > > as > > > > nearly as possible one-third of the members thereof shall retire, as > > > > soon as > > > > may be, on the expiration of every second year in accordance with > > > > the > > > > provisions made in that behalf by Legislature by law. > > > > > > > > 53. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall from time to time summon each > > > > House of the > > > > Legislature to meet at such time and place as he thinks fit, but six > > > > months > > > > shall not intervene between its last sitting in one session and the > > > > date > > > > appointed for its first sitting in the next session. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may from time to time... > > > > > > > > (a) prorogue the House or either house (b) dissolve the Legislative > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > 54. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may address either House of Legislature, > > > > or both > > > > Houses assembled together, and may for that purpose require the > > > > attendance > > > > of members. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may send messages to either House, whether > > > > with > > > > respect to a Bill then bending in the Legislature, or otherwise and > > > > a House > > > > to which any message is so sent shall with all convenient dispatch > > > > consider > > > > any matter required by the message to be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > 55. (1) At the commencement of the first session after each general > > > > election > > > > to the Legislative Assembly and at the commencement of the first > > > > session of > > > > each year, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall address both Houses of > > > > Legislature > > > > assembled together and inform the Legislature of the cause of its > > > > summons. > > > > > > > > (2) Provision shall be made by the rules regulating the procedure of > > > > either > > > > House for the allot-ment of time for discussion of the matters > > > > reffered to > > > > in such address. > > > > > > > > 56. Every Minister and the Advocate General shall have the right to > > > > speak > > > > in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings, of both Houses > > > > and to > > > > speak in, and otherwise to to take part in the proceedings of, any > > > > Committee-of the Legislature of which he may be named a member, but > > > > shall > > > > not, by virtue of this section, be entitled to vote. > > > > > > > > *OFFICERS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > > > > > 57. The Legislative Assembly shall, as soon as may be, choose two > > > > members of > > > > the Assembly to be res-pectively Speaker and Deputy Speaker thereof > > > > and, so > > > > often at office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant, the > > > > Assembly > > > > shall choose another member to be Speaker, or Deputy Speaker, as the > > > > case > > > > may be. > > > > > > > > 58. A member holding office as Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly: > > > > > > > > (a) shall vacate his office if he ceases to be a member of the > > > > Assembly; > > > > > > > > (b) may at any time by writing under his hand addressed, if such > > > > member is > > > > the Speaker, to the Deputy Speaker, and if such member is the Deputy > > > > Speaker, to the Speaker, resign his office; and > > > > > > > > (c) may be removed from his office by a resolu-tion of the Assembly > > > > passed > > > > by a majority of all the then members of the Assembly; > > > > > > > > Provided that no resolution for the purpose of clause (c) shall be > > > > moved > > > > unless at least fourteen days notice has been given of the intention > > > > to move > > > > the resolution. > > > > > > > > Provided further that, whenever the Assembly is dissolved, the > > > > Speaker that > > > > not vacate his office until immediately before the first meeting of > > > > the > > > > Assembly after the dissolution. > > > > > > > > 59. (1) While the office of Speaker is vacant the duties of the > > > > office shall > > > > be performed by the Deputy Speaker or, if the office of the Deputy > > > > Speaker > > > > is also vacant, by such member of the Assembly as the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > > > appoint for the purpose. > > > > > > > > (2) During the absence of the Speaker from any sitting of the > > > > Assembly the > > > > Deputy speaker or, if he is also absent, such person as may be > > > > determined by > > > > the rules of procedure of the Assembly, or, if no such person is > > > > present, > > > > such other person as may be determined by the Assembly, shall act as > > > > Speaker. > > > > > > > > 60. (1) At any sitting of the Legislative Assembly, while any > > > > resolution for > > > > the removal of the Speaker from his office is under consideration, > > > > the > > > > Speaker, or while any resolution for the removal of the Deputy > > > > Speaker from > > > > his office is under consideration, the Deputy Speaker shall not, > > > > though he > > > > is present, preside and the provisions of sub-section (2) of section > > > > 59 > > > > shall apply inrelation to every such sitting as they apply in > > > > relation to a > > > > sitting from which the Speaker or, as the case may be, the Deputy > > > > Speaker is > > > > absent. > > > > > > > > (2) The Speaker shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to > > > > take part > > > > in the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly while any resolu-tion > > > > for his > > > > removal from office is under con-sideration in the Assembly and > > > > shall, > > > > notwith-standing anything in section 67, be entitled to vote only in > > > > the > > > > first instance on such resolu-tion or on any other matter during > > > > such > > > > pro-ceedings but not in the case of an equality of votes. > > > > > > > > 61. (1) The Legislative Council shall, as soon as may be, choose two > > > > members > > > > of the Council to be respectively Chairman and Deputy Chairman > > > > thereof and, > > > > so often as the office of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman becomes > > > > vacant, > > > > the Council shall choose another member to be Chairman or Deputy > > > > Chairman, > > > > as the case may be. > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 58,59 and 60 shall apply in relation > > > > to the > > > > Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council with the > > > > substitution of the words "Chairman" and "Council" for the words > > > > "Speaker" > > > > and "Assembly" respectively wherever they occur in those provisions, > > > > and > > > > with the omission of the further proviso to section 58. > > > > > > > > 62. There shall be pay to the speaker and the the Deputy Speaker of > > > > the > > > > Legislative Assembly and to the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of > > > > the > > > > Legislative Council, such salaries and allowances as may be > > > > respectively > > > > fixed by Legislature by law and, until provi-sion in that behalf is > > > > so made, > > > > such salaries and allowances as are specified in the Third Schedule. > > > > > > > > 63. (1) Each House of the Legislature shall have a separate > > > > secretarial > > > > Staff: > > > > > > > > Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as > > > > preventing > > > > the creation of posts common to both Houses. > > > > > > > > (2) The Legislature may by law regulate the re-cruitment, and the > > > > conditions > > > > of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of each > > > > House. > > > > > > > > (3) Until provision is made by the Legislature under sub-section > > > > (2), the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may, after consultation with the Speaker of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case may > > > > be, > > > > make rules regulating the recruitment, and the con-ditions of > > > > service of > > > > persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of the Assembly or the > > > > Council, > > > > and any rules so made shall have effect subject to the provisions of > > > > any law > > > > made under the said sub-section. > > > > > > > > *CONDUCT OF BUSINESS* > > > > > > > > 64. Every member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative > > > > Council > > > > shall before taking his seat, make and sub-scribe before the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > or some person appointed in that behalf by him an oath or > > > > affirmation > > > > according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth Schedule. > > > > > > > > 65. Save as otherwise provided by the rules of proce-dure of the > > > > House, the > > > > quorum to constitute a meeting of the Legislative Assembly and of > > > > the > > > > Legislative Council shall be twenty and ten re-spectively. > > > > > > > > 66. A House of the Legislature shall have power to act > > > > notwithstanding any > > > > vacancy in the membership thereof, and any proceedings in the > > > > Legislature > > > > shall be valid notwithstanding that it is discovered subsequently > > > > that some > > > > person who was not entitl-ed so to do sat or voted or otherwise took > > > > part in > > > > the proceedings. > > > > > > > > 67. (1) Save as otherwise provided in this Constitu-tion, all > > > > questions at > > > > any sitting of a House of the Legislature shall be determined by a > > > > majority > > > > of votes of the members present and voting, other than the Speaker > > > > or > > > > Chairman, or person acting as such. > > > > > > > > (2) The Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such, shall not > > > > vote in the > > > > first instance, but shall have and exercise a casting vote in the > > > > case of an > > > > equality of votes. > > > > > > > > *DISQUALIFICATIONS OF MEMBERS*** > > > > > > > > 68. (1) No person shall be a member of both Houses of the > > > > Legislature and > > > > provision shall be made by Legislature by law for the vacation by a > > > > person > > > > who is chooser a member of both Houses of his seat in one House or > > > > the > > > > other. > > > > > > > > (2) If a member of a House of the Legislature resigns his seat by > > > > writing > > > > under his hand addressed to tile Speaker or the Chairman, as the > > > > case may > > > > be, his s at shall thereupon become vacant. > > > > > > > > (3) If for a period of sixty days a member of a House of the > > > > Legislature is > > > > without permission of the House absent from all meetings thereof, > > > > the House > > > > may declare his seat vacant: > > > > > > > > Provided that in computing the said period of sixty days no account > > > > shall be > > > > taken of: > > > > > > > > (a) such absence caused by reason beyond his control; or > > > > > > > > (b) any period during which the House is prorogued or is adjourned > > > > for more > > > > than four consecutive days. > > > > > > > > 69. (1) A person shall be disqualified for being chosen and for > > > > being a > > > > member of the Legislative Assembly or Legislative Council: > > > > > > > > (a) if he holds any office of profit under the Government of India > > > > or the > > > > State Govern-ment within the Union of India, other than an office > > > > declared > > > > by Legislature by law not to dis-qualify its holder; > > > > > > > > (b) if he is of unsound mind and stands so declared by a competent > > > > court; > > > > > > > > (c) if he is an undischarged insolvent; > > > > > > > > (d) if he is not a permanent resident of the State or has > > > > voluntarily > > > > acquired the citizenship of a foreign State, or is under any > > > > acknowledgement > > > > of allegiance to adherence to a foreign State; > > > > > > > > (e) if he is so disqualified by or under any law made by the > > > > Legislature. > > > > > > > > (2) For the purposes of this section, a person shall not be deemed > > > > to hold > > > > an office of profit under the Government of India, the State > > > > Government or > > > > any other State Government vithin the Union of India, by reason only > > > > that he > > > > is a Minister, or a Deputy Minister. > > > > > > > > 70. (1) If it is represented to the Speaker or the Chairman that a > > > > member > > > > of the Legislative Assembly or, as the case may be, of the > > > > Legis-lative > > > > Council is disqualified for being such a member under the provisions > > > > of > > > > section 69, or > > > > was so disqualified at any time since being chosen as a member and > > > > the > > > > member does not admit that he is or was so disqualified, the > > > > question shall > > > > be referred to the High Court decision and its decision shall be > > > > final: > > > > > > > > Provided that w here the disqualification in question arises from > > > > circumstances which subsisted at the time of his being chosen as > > > > such > > > > member, no such representation as aforesaid shall be entertained: > > > > > > > > (a) unless it is made after the expiration of the period by law for > > > > presenting an elec-tion petition calling in question the election of > > > > the > > > > member; and > > > > > > > > (b) if such an election petition is pending or has been tried, > > > > unless the > > > > Speaker or Chairman as the case may be is satisfied that the > > > > question of the > > > > members' disquali-fication by reason of those circumstances has not > > > > been > > > > raised or, as the case may be, was not raised, in the proceedings on > > > > the > > > > election petition. > > > > > > > > (2) Where on a representation made under sub-section (I) the member > > > > admits > > > > that he is or w. s disqualified under the provisions of section 69, > > > > or where > > > > on a reference made under that sub-section the High Court decides > > > > that the > > > > member is or was so disqualified, his seat shall thereupon become > > > > vacant. > > > > > > > > 71. If a person sits or votes as a member of the Legislative > > > > Assembly or the > > > > Legislative Council before he has complied with the requirements of > > > > section > > > > 54 or when he knows that he is not quali-fied or that he is > > > > disqualified for > > > > membership thereof or that he is prohibited from so doing by the > > > > provisions > > > > of any law made by the Legislature, he shall be liable in respect of > > > > each > > > > day on which he so sits or votes to a penalty of one hundred rupees > > > > to be > > > > recovered as a debt due to the State. > > > > > > > > *POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND ITS > > > > MEMBERS* > > > > > > > > 72. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the > > > > rules and > > > > standing orders regulating the procedure of the Legislature, there > > > > shall be > > > > freedom of speech in the Legislature. > > > > > > > > (2) No member of the Legislature shall be liable to any proceedings > > > > in any > > > > court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in the > > > > Legislature or any committee thereof and no person shall be so > > > > liable in > > > > respect of the publication by or under the authority of a House of > > > > the > > > > Legislature of any report, paper, votes, or proceedings. > > > > > > > > (3) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of a > > > > House of > > > > the Legislature and- of the members and the committees of a House of > > > > the > > > > Legislature shall be such as may from time to time be defined by > > > > Legislature > > > > by law, and until so defined shall be those of the Parliament of > > > > India and > > > > of its members and committees. > > > > > > > > (4) The provisions of sub-sections (1), (2) and (3) shall apply in > > > > relation > > > > to persons who by virtue of this Constitution have the right t o > > > > speak, in > > > > and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of, a House of the > > > > Legislature > > > > or any committee thereof as they apply in relation to members of > > > > that > > > > Legislature. > > > > > > > > 73. Members of the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council > > > > shall be > > > > entitled to receive such salaries and allowances as may from time to > > > > time be > > > > determined by Legislature by law and, until provision in that > > > > respect is so > > > > made, salaries and allowances at such rates and upon such conditions > > > > as were > > > > immediately before the commencement of this Constitution applicable > > > > in the > > > > case of members of the Constituent Assembly. > > > > > > > > *LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURE* > > > > > > > > 74. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 76 and 84 with respect > > > > to > > > > Money Bills and other Finan-cial Bills, a Bill may originate in > > > > either House > > > > of the Legislature. > > > > > > > > (2) Subject to the provisions of sections 75 and 76 a Bill shall not > > > > be > > > > deemed to have been passed by the Legislature unless it has been > > > > agreed to > > > > by both Houses, either without amendment or with such amendments > > > > only as are > > > > agreed to by both Houses. > > > > > > > > (3) A Bill pending in the Legislature shall not lapse by reason of > > > > the > > > > prorogation of the House or House thereof. > > > > > > > > (4) A Bill pending in the Legislative Council which has not been > > > > passed by > > > > the Legislative Assembly shall not lapse on a dissolution of the > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > (5) A Bill which is pending in the Legislative Assembly or which > > > > having been > > > > passed by the Legislative Assembly, is pending in the Legi-slative > > > > Council, > > > > shall lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly > > > > > > > > 75. (1) If after a Bill has been passed by the Legisla-tive Assembly > > > > and > > > > transmitted to the Legisla-tive Council: > > > > > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > > > > > (b) more than three months elapse from the date on which the Bill is > > > > laid > > > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Legisl-ative Assembly may, > > > > subject > > > > to the rules regulating its procedure, pass the Bill again in the > > > > same or in > > > > any subse-quent session with or without such amendments, if any, as > > > > have > > > > been made suggested or agreed to by the Legislative Council and then > > > > transmit the Bill as so passed to the Legislative Council. > > > > > > > > (2) If after a Bill has been so palmed for the se-cond time by the > > > > legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council: > > > > > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > > > > > (b) more shall one month elapses from the date on which the Bill is > > > > laid > > > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; > > > > > > > > the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Houses of the > > > > Legislature in the form in which it passed by the Legislative > > > > Assembly for > > > > the second time with such amendments, if any, as have been made or > > > > suggested > > > > by the Legislative Council and agreed to by the Legislative > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > (3) Nothing in this section shall apply to a Money Bill. > > > > > > > > 76. (1) A Money Bill shall not be introduced in the Legislative > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > (2) After a Money Bill has been passed by the Legislative Assembly, > > > > it shall > > > > be transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommenda-tions > > > > and the > > > > Legislative Council shall within a period of fourteen days from the > > > > date of > > > > its receipt of the Bill return the Bill to the Legis-lative Assembly > > > > with > > > > its recommendations, and the Legislative Assemble may there upon > > > > either > > > > accept or reject all or any of the recom-mendations of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > (3) If the Legislative Assembly accepts any of the recommendations > > > > of the > > > > Legislative Council, the Money Bil] shall deemed to have been passed > > > > by both > > > > Houses with the amend-ments recommended by the Legislative Coun-cil > > > > and > > > > accepted by the Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > (4) If the Legislative Assembly does not accept any of the > > > > recommendations > > > > of the Legislative Council, the Money Bill shall be deemed to have > > > > been > > > > passed by both Houses in the form which it was passed by the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly without any of the amendments recommended by the > > > > Legislative > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > 5. If a Money Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly and > > > > transmitted to the > > > > Legislative Council for its recommendations is not returned to the > > > > Legislative Assembly within the said period of fourteen days, it > > > > shall be > > > > deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the > > > > said > > > > period in the form in which it was passed by the Legislative > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > 77. (1) For the purposes of the part, a Bill shall be deemed to be a > > > > Money > > > > Bill if it contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the > > > > following > > > > matters namely: > > > > > > > > (a) the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation > > > > of any > > > > tax; > > > > > > > > (b) the regulation of the borrowing of money or the giving of any > > > > guarantee > > > > by the State, or the amendment of the law with respect to any > > > > financial > > > > obligations under-taken or to be undertaken by the State; > > > > > > > > (c) the custody of the Consolidated Fund or the Contingency Fund of > > > > the > > > > State, the payment of money into or the with-drawal of moneys from > > > > any such > > > > Fund: > > > > > > > > (d) the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the > > > > State; > > > > > > > > (e) the declaring of any expenditure to be expenditure charges on > > > > the > > > > consolidated Fund of the State, or the increasing of the amount of > > > > any such > > > > expenditure; > > > > > > > > (f) the receipt of money on account of the Consolidated Fund of the > > > > State or > > > > the public account of the State or the custody or issue of such > > > > money; or > > > > any matter incidental to any of the matters specified in clauses (a) > > > > to (f). > > > > > > > > (2) A Bill shall not be deemed to be a Money Bill by reason only > > > > that it > > > > provides for the imposition of fines or other pecuniary penalties or > > > > for the > > > > demand or payment of fees for lice-nces or fees for services > > > > rendered, or by > > > > reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, > > > > alteration > > > > or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local > > > > purposes. > > > > > > > > (3) If any question arises whether a Bill introduced in the > > > > Legislature is a > > > > Money Bill or not, the decision of the Speaker of the Legislative > > > > Assembly > > > > thereon shall be final. > > > > > > > > (4) There shall be endorsed an every Money Bill when it is > > > > transmitted to > > > > the Legislative Council under section 76 and when it is pre-sented > > > > to the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent under section 78, the certificate of the > > > > Speaker > > > > of the Legislative Assembly signed by him that it is a Money Bill. > > > > > > > > 78. When a Bill has been passed by both Houses of the Legislature, > > > > it shall > > > > be presented to the Sadar--i-Riyasat and the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall > > > > declare > > > > either that he assents to the Bill or that he with-holds assent > > > > therefrom. > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, as soon as possible after the > > > > presentation to him of the Bill for assent, return the Bill if it is > > > > not a > > > > Money Bill together with a message requesting that the Houses will > > > > reconsider the Bill or any specified provisions thereof and, in > > > > particular, > > > > will consider the desira-bility of introducing any such amendments > > > > as he may > > > > recommend in his message and, when a Bill is so returned, the Houses > > > > shall > > > > reconsider the Bill accordingly, and if the Bill is passed again by > > > > the > > > > Houses with or without amendment and presented to the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for > > > > assent, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not withhold assent therefrom. > > > > > > > > *PROCEDURE IN FINANCIAL MATTERS* > > > > > > > > 79. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall in respect of every financial year > > > > cause > > > > to be laid before both Houses of the Legislature a statement of the > > > > estimated receipts and expenditure of the State for that year, in > > > > this part > > > > referred to as the "annual financial statement." (2) The estimates > > > > of > > > > expenditure embodied in the annual financial statement shall show > > > > separately > > > > > > > > (a) the sums required to meet expenditure described by this > > > > constitution as > > > > expendi-ture charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State; and > > > > > > > > (b) the sums required to meet other expendi-ture proposed to be made > > > > from > > > > the con-solidated Fund of the State; and shall distinguish > > > > expenditure on > > > > revenue account from other expenditure. > > > > > > > > (3) The following expenditure shall be expenditure charged on the > > > > consolidated fund of the State: > > > > > > > > (a) the emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and other > > > > expenditure relating to his office; > > > > > > > > (b) the salaries and allowances of the Speaker and the Deputy > > > > Speaker of the > > > > Legislative Assembly and of the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman of > > > > the > > > > Legislative Council; > > > > > > > > (c) debt charges for which the State is liable including interest, > > > > sinking > > > > fund charges and redemption charges. and other expenditure relating > > > > to the > > > > raising of loans and the service and redemption of debt; > > > > > > > > (d) expenditure in respect of the salaries and allowances of the > > > > Judges of > > > > the High Court; > > > > > > > > (e) any sums required to satisfy any judge-ment decree or award of > > > > any Court > > > > or arbitral tribunal; > > > > > > > > (f) any other expenditure declared by this Constitution, or by > > > > Legislature > > > > by law, to be so charged. > > > > > > > > 80. (1,) So much of the estimates as relates to expen-diture changed > > > > upon > > > > the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be submitted to the > > > > vote of the > > > > Legislative Assembly, but nothing in this sub-section shall be > > > > construed as > > > > preven-ting the discussion in the Legislature of any those > > > > estimates. > > > > > > > > (2) So much of the said estimates as relates to other expenditure > > > > shall be > > > > submitted in the form of demands for grants to the Legislative > > > > Assembly, and > > > > the Legislative Assembly shall have power to assent, or to refuse to > > > > assent, > > > > to any demand, or to assent to any demand subject to a reduction of > > > > the > > > > amount specified therein. > > > > > > > > (3) No demand for a grant shall be made except on the recommendation > > > > of the > > > > Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > > > > > (1) As soon as may be after the grants under section 80 have been > > > > made by > > > > the Assembly, there shall be introduced a Bill to provide for the > > > > appropriation out of the Consolidated fund of the State of all > > > > moneys > > > > required to meet: > > > > > > > > (a) the grants so made by the Assembly; and (b) the expenditure > > > > charged on > > > > the Consoli-dated Fund of the State but not exceed-ing in any case > > > > the > > > > amount shown in the statement previously laid before the Houses. > > > > > > > > (23 No amendment shall be proposed to any such Bill in either House > > > > of the > > > > Legislature which will have the effect of varying the amount or > > > > altering the > > > > destination of any grant to made or of varying the amount of any > > > > expenditure > > > > charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State, and the decision of > > > > the > > > > person presiding as to whether an amendment is inadmissible under > > > > the > > > > sub-section shall be final. > > > > > > > > (3) Subject to the provisions of sections 89 and 83, no money shall > > > > be > > > > withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund of the State except under > > > > appropriation > > > > made by law passed in accor-dance with the provisions of this > > > > section > > > > > > > > 12. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall: > > > > > > > > (a) if the amount authorised by any law made in accordance with > > > > provisions > > > > of section 81 to be expended for a particular service for the > > > > current > > > > financial year is found to be insufficient for the purposes of that > > > > year or > > > > when a need has arisen during the current financial year for > > > > supplemen-tary > > > > or additional expenditure upon some new service not contemplated in > > > > the > > > > annual financial statement for that year; or > > > > > > > > (b) if any money has been spent on any ser-vice during a financial > > > > year in > > > > excess of the amount granted for the service and for that year, > > > > cause to be > > > > laid before the Houses of the Legislature another statement showing > > > > the > > > > estimated amount of that expenditure or cause to be presented to the > > > > Legis-lative Assembly a demand for such excess, as the case may be. > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 79, 80 and 81 shall have effect in > > > > relation > > > > to any such statement and expenditure or demand and also to any law > > > > to be > > > > made authorising the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated > > > > Fund of > > > > the State to meet such expenditure or the grant in respect of such > > > > demand as > > > > they have effect in relation to the annual financial state-ment and > > > > the > > > > expenditure mentioned therein or to a demand for grant and the law > > > > to be > > > > 'made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the > > > > Consolidated Fund of the state to meet such expenditure or grant. > > > > > > > > 83. (1) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this > > > > Part, > > > > the Legislative Assem-bly shall have power: > > > > > > > > (a) to make any grant in advance in respect of the estimated > > > > expenditure for > > > > a part of any financial year pending the completion of the procedure > > > > prescribed in section 80 for the voting of such grant and the > > > > pas-sing of > > > > the law in accordance with the provisions of section 81 in relation > > > > to that > > > > expenditure; > > > > > > > > (b) to make a grant for meeting an unexpec-ted demand upon the > > > > resources of > > > > the State when on account of the magnitude or the indefinite > > > > character of > > > > the services the demand cannot be stated with the details ordinarily > > > > given > > > > in an annual financial statement; > > > > > > > > (c) to make an exceptional grant which forms no part of the current > > > > service > > > > of any financial year; > > > > and the Legislature shall have power to authorise by law the > > > > withdrawal of > > > > moneys from the Consolidated Fund of the State for the purposes for > > > > which > > > > the said grants are made. > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 80 and 81 shall have effect in > > > > relation to > > > > the making of any grant under sub-section (1) and to law to be made > > > > under > > > > that sub-section as they have effect in relation to the making of a > > > > grant > > > > with regard to any expenditure mentioned h1 the annual financial > > > > statement > > > > and the law to be made for the authorization of appropriation of > > > > moneys out > > > > of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure. > > > > > > > > 84. (1) A bill or amendment making provision for any of the matters > > > > specified in clauses (a) to (f) of sub-section (1) of section 77 > > > > shall not > > > > be introduced or moved except on the recom-mendation of the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > and a Bill making such provision shall not be introdu-ced in the > > > > Legislative > > > > Council: > > > > > > > > Provided that no recommendation shall be required under this > > > > sub-section for > > > > the moving of an amendment making provision for the reduction or > > > > abolition > > > > of any tax. > > > > > > > > (2) A Bill or amendment shall not be deemed to make provision for > > > > any of the > > > > matters afore-said by reason only that it provides for the. > > > > imposition of > > > > fines or other pecuniary penal-ties, or for the demand or payment of > > > > fees > > > > for licences or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it > > > > provides > > > > for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation > > > > of any > > > > tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. > > > > > > > > (3) A Bill which, if enacted and brought into operation. would > > > > involve > > > > expenditure from the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be > > > > passed by a > > > > House of the Legislature unless the Sadar-i-Riyasat has recommended > > > > to that > > > > House the consideration of the Bill. > > > > > > > > *PROCEDURE GENERALLY* > > > > > > > > 85. (1) A House of the Legislature may make rules for regulating, > > > > subject to > > > > the provisions of this Constitution, its procedure and the con-duct > > > > of its > > > > business. > > > > > > > > (2) Until rules are made under sub-section (1), the rules of > > > > procedure and > > > > standing orders in force immediately before the commencement of this > > > > > > > > Constituent Assembly while discharging the functions of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly shall have effect in relation to each House of the > > > > Legislature > > > > subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be made therein > > > > by the > > > > Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Council, as the case may be. > > > > > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, after consultation with the Speaker of the > > > > Legislative Assembly and the Chairman of the Legislative Council, > > > > may make- > > > > rules as to the procedure with respect to communications between the > > > > two > > > > Houses. > > > > > > > > 86. The Legislature may, for the purpose of the timely completion of > > > > financial business, regulate by law the procedure of, and the > > > > conduct of > > > > business in. the House of the Legislature in relation to any > > > > financial > > > > matter or to any Bill for the appropria-tion of moneys out of the > > > > Consolidated Fund of the State, and, if and so far as any provision > > > > of any > > > > law so made is inconsistent with any rule made by either House of > > > > the > > > > Legislature under sub-section (I) of section 85 or with any rule of > > > > standing > > > > order having effect in relation to either House of the Legislature > > > > under > > > > sub-section (2) of that section such provisions shall prevail. > > > > > > > > 87. Business in the Legislature shall be transacted in Urdu or in > > > > English. > > > > > > > > (1) Provided that the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the > > > > Chairman of > > > > the Legislative Council or person acting as such, as the case may > > > > be, may > > > > permit any member to address the House in Hindi, or if he cannot > > > > adequa-tely > > > > express himself in any of the aforesaid languages, to address the > > > > House in > > > > his mother-tongue. > > > > > > > > (2) The official records of the proceedings in the Legislature shall > > > > be kept > > > > in Urdu as well as in English. > > > > > > > > (3) The text of all Bills and amendments there of moved in and of > > > > all Acts > > > > passed by the Legis-lature which shall be treated as authoritative, > > > > shall be > > > > in English. > > > > > > > > 88. No discussion shall take place in the Legislature with respect > > > > to the > > > > conduct of any Judge of the Supreme Court or of the High Court in > > > > the > > > > discharge of his duties. > > > > > > > > 89. (1) The validity of any proceedings in the Legis-lature shall > > > > not be > > > > called in question -on the gro-unds of any alleged irregularity of > > > > procedure. > > > > > > > > (2) No officer or member of the Legislature in whom powers are > > > > vested by > > > > or under this Constitution for regulating procedure or the conduct > > > > of > > > > Business, or for maintaining order, in the Legislature shall be > > > > subject to > > > > the juris-diction of any court in respect of the exercise by him of > > > > those > > > > powers. > > > > > > > > 90. No Act of the Legislature and no provision in any such Act shall > > > > be > > > > invalid by reason only that some recommendation required by this > > > > Constitution was not given, if assent to that Act was given by the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > Legislative power of the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > > > > > 91. (1) If at any time, except when both Houses of the Legislature > > > > are in > > > > session, the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that circumstances exist > > > > which > > > > render it necessary for him to take immediate action; he may > > > > promulgate such > > > > Ordinances as the circums-tances appear to him to require. > > > > Provided that the power of making Ordinance under this Section shall > > > > extend > > > > only to those matters with respect to which the Legislature has > > > > power to > > > > make laws. > > > > > > > > (2) An Ordinance promulgated under this section shall have the same > > > > force > > > > and effect as an Act of the Legislature assented to by the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > but every such Ordinance: > > > > > > > > (a) shall be laid before both the Houses of the Legislature, and > > > > shall cease > > > > to operate at the expiration of six weeks from the re-assembly of > > > > the > > > > Legislature, or if be-fore tile expiration of that period a > > > > reso-lution > > > > disapproving it is passed by the Legislative Assembly and agreed to > > > > by > > > > Legislative Council, upon the resolution being agreed to by the > > > > Legislative > > > > Coun-cil, and - > > > > > > > > (b) may be withdrawn at any time by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > Explanation: - Where the Houses of the Legislature are summoned to > > > > re-assemble on different dates the period of six weeks shall be > > > > reckoned > > > > from the latter of those dates for the purposes of this sub-section. > > > > > > > > Breakdown of Constitutional Machinery. > > > > > > > > 92. (1) If at any time the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that a > > > > situation has > > > > arisen in which the Government of the State cannot be carried on in > > > > accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > > > by Proclamation: > > > > > > > > (a) assume to himself all or any of the func-tions of the Government > > > > of the > > > > State and all or any of the powers vested in or excercisable by > > > > anybody or > > > > authority in the State; > > > > > > > > (b) make such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i--Riyasat to be necessary or desirable for giving effect to > > > > the > > > > objects of the Procla-mation, including provisions for suspen-ding > > > > in whole > > > > or in part the operation of any provision of this Constitution > > > > rela-ting to > > > > any body or authority in the State: > > > > > > > > Provided that nothing in this section shall authorised die > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > to assume to himself any of the powers vested in or exer-cisable by > > > > the High > > > > Court or to suspend in whole or in part the operation of any > > > > provi-sion of > > > > this Constitution relating to the High Court. > > > > > > > > (2) Any such Proclamation may be revoked or carried by a subsequent > > > > Proclamation. > > > > > > > > (3) Any such Proclamation whether varied under sub-section (2) or > > > > not, > > > > shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous > > > > Proclama-tion, > > > > cease to operate on the expiration of six months from the date on > > > > which it > > > > divas first Issued. > > > > > > > > (4) If the Sadar-i-Riyasat by a Proclamation under this section > > > > assumes to > > > > himself any of the powers of the legislature to make laws, any law > > > > made by > > > > him in the exercise of that power shall, subject to the terms > > > > thereof, > > > > continue to have effect until two years have elapsed from the date > > > > on which > > > > the Proclamation ceases to have effect, unless sooner repealed or > > > > re-enacted > > > > by an Act of the Legislature, and any reference in this Constitution > > > > to any > > > > Acts of or laws made by the Legislature shall be construed as > > > > including a > > > > reference to such law. No Proclamation under sub-section (1) shall > > > > be issued > > > > except with the concurrence of the President of India. > > > > > > > > (6) Every Proclamation under this section shall, except where it is > > > > a > > > > Proclamation revoking a previous Proclamation, be laid before each > > > > house of > > > > the Legisiature as soon as it is convened. > > > > > > > > *PART VII* > > > > *THE HIGH COURT* > > > > > > > > 93. (1) There shall be a High Court for the State, consisting of a > > > > Chief > > > > Justice and two or more other judges. > > > > > > > > (2) The High Court exercising jurisdiction in relation to the State > > > > Immediately before the commencement of this Constitution shall be > > > > the High > > > > Court for the State. > > > > > > > > 94. The High Court shall be a court of record and shall have all the > > > > powers > > > > of such a courts including the power to punish for contempt of > > > > itself or of > > > > the courts subordinate to it. > > > > > > > > 95. Every Judge of the High Court shall be appointed by the > > > > President by > > > > Warrant under his hand and seal after consultation with the Chief > > > > Justice of > > > > India, the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and in the case of appointment of a > > > > Judge other > > > > than the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice of the High Court and > > > > shall hold > > > > office until he attains the age of sixty years. > > > > > > > > 96. A person shall not be qualified for appointment as a Judge of > > > > the High > > > > Court unless he is a citizen of India, and: > > > > > > > > (a) has for at least ten years held a judicial office in the State > > > > or in any > > > > other part of India; or > > > > > > > > (b) has for at least ten years been an advocate of the State High > > > > Court or > > > > of any other High Court in India or of two or more such courts in > > > > succession. > > > > > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this Section in omputing the > > > > period > > > > during which a person has been an advocate of a High Court. there > > > > shall be > > > > included any period during which the person has held judicial office > > > > after > > > > he became an advocate. > > > > > > > > 97. Every person appointed to be a Judge of the High > > > > Court, shall. before he enters upon his office, make an subscribe > > > > before the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him, an > > > > oath or > > > > affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the > > > > Fifth > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > 98. (1) There shall be paid to the Judges of the High > > > > Court such salaries as are specified in the Fourth Schedule. > > > > > > > > (a) Every Judge shall be entitled to such allowan-ces and to such > > > > rights in > > > > respect of leave of absence and pension as may from time to time be > > > > determined by or under law made by the Legislature, and until so > > > > determined, > > > > to such allowances and rights as are specified in the Fourth > > > > Schedule: > > > > > > > > Provided that neither the allowances of a Judge nor his rights in > > > > respect of > > > > leave of absence or pension shall be varied to his dis-advantage > > > > after his > > > > appointment: > > > > > > > > 99. (1) A Judge of the High Court may, by writing under his hand > > > > addressed > > > > to the President, resign his office. > > > > > > > > (2) A Judge of the High Court shall not be removed from his office > > > > except by > > > > an order of the President passed after an address by each House of > > > > the > > > > Legislature supported by a majority of the total membership of that > > > > House > > > > and by a majority of not less than two- thirds of the members of > > > > that House > > > > present and voting has been presented to the president > > > > in the same session for such removal on the > > > > ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity. > > > > > > > > (3) The Legislature may by law regulate the procedure for the > > > > presentation > > > > of an address and for the investigation and proof of the > > > > misbehaviour or > > > > incapacity of a Judge under sub-section (2). > > > > > > > > 100. (1) When the office of the Chief Justice is vacant or when the > > > > Chief > > > > Justice is by reason of absence or otherwise, unable to perform the > > > > duties > > > > of his office, the duties of the office shall be performed by such > > > > one of > > > > the other > > > > Judges of the Court as the President may appoint for the purpose. > > > > > > > > (2) When any Judge of the High Court other than the Chief Justice is > > > > by > > > > reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the > > > > duties of > > > > his office or is appointed to act temporarily as Chief Justice, the > > > > President may appoint a duly qualified person to act as a Judge of > > > > the Court > > > > until the permanent Judge has resumed his duties. > > > > > > > > 101. (1) The usual places of sitting of the High Court shall be > > > > Jammu and > > > > Srinagar. > > > > > > > > (2) The Chief Justice shall, with the approval of the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > determine the number of Judges who shall sit from time to time at > > > > Jammu and > > > > at Srinagar for such period as may be deemed necessary. > > > > > > > > (3) Whenever it appears to the Chief Justice that it is desirable > > > > that the > > > > High Courts should hold its sitting at a place other than Srinagar > > > > and > > > > Jummu, one or more Judges of the High Court as determined by him > > > > shall, with > > > > the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, sit at such place. > > > > > > > > 102. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the > > > > provisions of > > > > any law for the time being in force, the jurisdiction of and the law > > > > > > > > administered in the High Court and the respective powers of the > > > > Judges > > > > thereof in relation to the administration of justice in the court, > > > > including > > > > any power to make rules of court and to regulate the sittings of the > > > > court > > > > and of members thereof, sitting alone or in Division Courts, shall > > > > be the > > > > same as immedia-tely before the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > > > > > 103. The High Court shall have power to issue to any person or > > > > authority, > > > > including in appropriate cases any Government within the State, > > > > directions, > > > > orders or writs. including writs in the nature of habeas corpus, > > > > mandamus, > > > > prohibition, quo warranto and certiorari, or any of them. for any > > > > purpose > > > > other than those mentioned in clause (2A) of article 32 of the > > > > Constitution > > > > of India. > > > > > > > > 104. (1) The High Court shall have superintendence and control over > > > > all > > > > courts for the time being subject to its appellate or revisional > > > > jusrisdic-tion and all such courts shall be subordinate to the High > > > > Court. > > > > > > > > (I) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, > > > > the High > > > > court may: > > > > > > > > (a) call for returns from such courts, > > > > > > > > (b) make and issue general rules and prescribe forms for regulating > > > > the > > > > practice and pro-ceedings of such courts; and > > > > > > > > (c) Prescribe forms in which books, entries and accounts shall be > > > > kept by > > > > the officers of any such court. > > > > > > > > (3) The High Court may also settle tables of fees to be allowed to > > > > the > > > > sheriff and all clerks and officers of such courts and to attorneys, > > > > advo-cates and pleaders practicing therein: > > > > Provided that any rules made, forms prescrib-ed or tables settled > > > > under > > > > sub-section (2) or sub-section(3) shall not be inconsistent with the > > > > > > > > provision of any law for the time being in force, and shall require > > > > the > > > > previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > 105. If the High Court is satisfied that a case pending in a court > > > > subordinate to it involves a substantial question of law as to the > > > > interpretation of this Constitution or the Constitution of India the > > > > deter-mination of which is necessary for the disposal of the case, > > > > it shall > > > > withdraw the case and may: > > > > > > > > (a) either dispose of the case itself; or > > > > > > > > (b) determine the said question of law and return the case to the > > > > court from > > > > which the case has been so withdrawn together with a copy of its > > > > judgement > > > > on such question, and the said court shall on receipt thereof > > > > proceed to > > > > dispose of the case in conformity with such judgement. > > > > > > > > 106. No person who had held office as a Judge of the > > > > High Court after the commencement of this Con-stitution shall plead > > > > or act > > > > in any court or before any authority within the State. > > > > > > > > 107. (1) The High Court shall have and use as occa-sion may require > > > > a seal > > > > bearing a device and impression of the State emblem with an exergue > > > > or label > > > > surrounding the same with the inscription: > > > > > > > > "The seal of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir'' > > > > > > > > (2) The seal shall be delivered to. and kept in the custody of, the > > > > Registrar or such other officer of the court as the Chief Justice > > > > may > > > > designate in this behalf. > > > > > > > > 108. (1) Appointments of officers and servants of the High Court > > > > shall be > > > > made by the Chief Justice of the court or such other judge or > > > > officer of the > > > > court as he may direct: > > > > > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by rule require that in such > > > > cases as > > > > may be specified in the rule no person not already attached to the > > > > court > > > > shall be appointed to any office connected with the court save after > > > > > > > > consulta-tion with the State Public Service Commis-sion. > > > > > > > > (I) Subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, > > > > the > > > > conditions of service of the officers and servants of the High Court > > > > shall > > > > be such as may be prescribed by rules made by the High Court with > > > > the > > > > approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > (3) The administrative expenses of the High Court including all > > > > salaries, > > > > allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the officers and > > > > > > > > servants of the Court' shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fund > > > > of the > > > > State, and any fees or other moneys taken by the Court shall form > > > > part of > > > > that Fund. > > > > > > > > *SUBORDINATE COURTS* > > > > > > > > 109. (1) Appointment of persons to be, and the postings: and > > > > promotion off > > > > district judges in the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in > > > > > > > > con-sultation with the High Court. > > > > (2) A person not already in the service of the : State shall only > > > > be > > > > eligible to be appointed a district judge if he has been for not > > > > less than > > > > seven years an advocate or pleader and is recommended by the High > > > > Court for > > > > appointment. > > > > > > > > 110. Appointment of persons other than district judges to the > > > > judicial > > > > service of the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in > > > > accordance with > > > > rules made by him in that behalf after consulation with the Public > > > > Service > > > > Commission and with the High Court. > > > > > > > > 111. The control over district courts and courts sub-ordinate > > > > thereto > > > > including the posting and promo-tion of, and the grant of leave to, > > > > persons > > > > belong-ing to the judicial service of the State and holding any post > > > > > > > > inferior to the post of district judge shall be vested in the High > > > > Court, > > > > but nothing in this section shall be construed as taking away from > > > > any such > > > > person any right of appeal which he may have under the law > > > > regulating the > > > > conditions of his service or as authorising the High Court to deal > > > > with him > > > > otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of his service > > > > prescribed > > > > under such law. > > > > > > > > 112. In this part... > > > > > > > > (a) the expression "district judge'' includes additional district > > > > judge, > > > > assistant district judge, sessions judge, additional sessions judge > > > > and > > > > assistant sessions judge: > > > > > > > > (b) the expression "judical service" means a service consisting > > > > exclusively > > > > of persons inten-ded to fill the post of district judge, and other > > > > civil > > > > judicial posts inferior to the post of dis-trict judge. > > > > > > > > 113. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be public notification direct that the > > > > foregoing provisions of this part and any rules made thereunder > > > > shall with > > > > effect from such date as may be fixed by him in that behalf apply in > > > > > > > > relation to any class or classes of magis-trates in the State as > > > > they apply > > > > in relation to any persons appointed to the judicial service of the > > > > State > > > > Subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified in > > > > the > > > > notification. > > > > > > > > *PART VIII* > > > > *FINANCE, PROPERTY AND CONTRACTS* > > > > > > > > 114. No tax shall be levied or collected except by authority of law. > > > > > > > > 115. (1) Subject to the provisions of section 116, all revenues > > > > received by > > > > the Government, all loans raised by the Government by the issue of > > > > treasury bills, loans or ways and means advances and all moneys > > > > received by > > > > Government in repayment of loaned shall form one consolidated fund > > > > to be > > > > entitled "the Consolidated Fund of the State." > > > > (2) All other public moneys received by or on behalf of the > > > > Government shall > > > > be credited to the public account of the State. > > > > (3) No moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State shall be > > > > appropriated except in accordance with law and for the purposes and > > > > in the > > > > manner provided in this Constitution. > > > > > > > > 116. The Legislature may by law establish a Contingency Fund in the > > > > nature > > > > of an impress to be entitled > > > > "the Contingency Fund of the State" into which shall be paid from > > > > time to > > > > time such sums as may be determined by such law, and the said Fund > > > > shall be > > > > placed at the disposal of the Sadar-i--Riyasat to enable advances to > > > > be made > > > > by him out of such fund for the purposes of meeting unforeseen > > > > expenditure > > > > pending authorisation of such expendi-ture by Legislature by law > > > > under > > > > section 82 or 83. > > > > > > > > 117. The State may make any grants for any public purpose, > > > > notwithstanding > > > > that the purpose is not one with expect to which the Legislature may > > > > make. > > > > > > > > 118. The custody of the Consolidated Fund of the State and the > > > > Contingency > > > > Funds of the State, the payment of moneys into such funds, the > > > > withdrawal of > > > > moneys therefrom, the custody of public moneys other than those > > > > credited to > > > > such Fund received by or on behalf of the Government, their payment > > > > into the > > > > public account of the State and the withdrawal of moneys from such > > > > account > > > > and all other matters connected with or ancillary to matters > > > > aforesaid shall > > > > be regulated by law made by the Legislature and, until provision in > > > > that > > > > behalf is so made, shall be regulated by rules made by the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > 119. All moneys received by or deposited with: > > > > > > > > (a) any officer employed in connection with the affairs of the State > > > > in his > > > > capacity as such, other than revenues or public moneys raised or > > > > received by > > > > the Government; or > > > > > > > > (b) an, court within the State to the credit of any cause, matter, > > > > account > > > > or persons, shall be paid into the public account of the State. > > > > > > > > 120. Any property within the State which, if this Constitution had > > > > not come > > > > up into operation, would have accrued to the Government or any other > > > > authority hi the State by escheat or lapse, or as bona-vacantia for > > > > want of > > > > a rightful owner, shall vest in the State. > > > > > > > > 121. (1) The executive power of the State shall extend, subject to > > > > any law > > > > made by the State Legisla-ture, to the carrying on of any trade or > > > > busi-ness, and to the grant, scale, disposition or mortgage of any > > > > property > > > > held for the purposes of the State, and to the purchase or > > > > acquisi-tion of > > > > property for those purposes and to the making of contracts. > > > > > > > > (2) All property acquired for the purposes of the State shall vest > > > > in the > > > > State. > > > > > > > > 122. (1) All contracts made in the exercise of the executive power > > > > of the > > > > State shall be expressed to be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and all > > > > such > > > > contracts and all assurance of property made in the exercise of that > > > > power > > > > shall be executed on behalf of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by such persons > > > > and in > > > > such manner as he may direct or authorise. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be personally liable in respect of > > > > any > > > > contract or assurance made or executed for the purposes of this > > > > Constitution, or for the purposes any of enact-ment relating to the > > > > Government of the State heretofore in force, nor shall any person > > > > making or > > > > executing any such contract or assurance on his behalf be personally > > > > liable > > > > in respect thereof. > > > > > > > > 123. The Government may sue or be sued by the name of the State of > > > > Jammu and > > > > Kashmir and may, subject to any provisions which may be made by Act > > > > of the > > > > Legislature enacted by virtue of powers conferred by this > > > > Constitution, sue > > > > or be sued in relation to its affairs in the like cases as the State > > > > might > > > > have sued or been sued if this Constitution had not been enacted. > > > > > > > > *PART IX* > > > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE* > > > > > > > > 124. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature > > > > may by > > > > law regulate the recruitment and conditions of service of persons > > > > appointed, > > > > to public services and posts in connection with the affairs of the > > > > State: > > > > > > > > Provided that it shall be competent for the Sadar--i-Riyasat or such > > > > person > > > > as he may direct, to make rules regulating the recruitment and the > > > > conditions of services of persons appointed, to such services and > > > > posts > > > > until provisions in that behalf is made by or under an Act of the > > > > Legislature under this section, and any rules so made shall effect > > > > subject > > > > to the provisions of any such Act. > > > > > > > > 125. (1) Except expressly provided by this Constitution, every > > > > person who is > > > > a member of a civil service of the State or holds any civil post > > > > under the State hold office during the pleasure of the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > (2) Notwithstanding that a person holding a civil post under the > > > > State holds > > > > office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, any contract > > > > under which > > > > a person, not being a member of a civil service of the State, is > > > > appointed > > > > to hold such a post man, if the Sadar-i-Riyasat deems it necessary > > > > in order > > > > to secure the services of a person having special qualifications, > > > > provide > > > > for tile payment to him of compensation, if before the expiration of > > > > an > > > > agreed period that post is abolished or he is, for reasons not > > > > connected > > > > with any miscon-duct on his part required to vacate that post. > > > > > > > > 126. (1) No person who is a member of a civil service of tile State > > > > or holds > > > > a civil post under the State shall be distressed or removed by an > > > > authority > > > > subordinate to that by which he was appointed. > > > > > > > > (2) No such person as aforesaid shall be dismissed or removed or > > > > reduced in > > > > rank until he has been given a reasonable opportunity of show-ing > > > > cause > > > > against the action proposed to be taken in regard to him: > > > > > > > > Provided that this sub-section shall not apply: > > > > > > > > (a) where a person is dismissed or removed or reduced in rank on the > > > > ground > > > > of con-duct which has led to his conviction on a criminal charge; > > > > > > > > (b) where an authority empowered to dismiss or remove a person or to > > > > reduce > > > > him in rank is satisfied that for some reason, to be recorded by > > > > that > > > > authority in writing, it is not reasonably practicable to give to > > > > that > > > > person an opportunity of showing cause; or > > > > > > > > (c) where the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that in the interests of > > > > the > > > > security of the State it is not expedient to give to that person > > > > such an > > > > opportunity. > > > > > > > > (3) If any question arises whether it is reasonably > > > > practicable to give to any person an oppor-tunity of showing cause > > > > under > > > > sub-section. > > > > > > > > (4) The decision thereon of the authority empo-wered to dismiss or > > > > remove > > > > such person or to reduce him in rank, as the case may be, shall be > > > > final. > > > > > > > > 127. Until other Provisional is made in this behalf under the > > > > constitution, > > > > all the laws in force im-mediately before the commencement of this > > > > Consti-tution and applicable to any public service or any post which > > > > continues to exist after the commence-ment of this Constitution as > > > > service > > > > or post under the- State, shall continue in force so far as > > > > consistent with > > > > the provisions of this Constitu-tion. > > > > > > > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION* > > > > > > > > 128. There shall be a Public Service Commission (here-inafter > > > > referred to in > > > > this Part as "the Commi-ssion" for the State. > > > > > > > > 129. (1) The Chairman and other members of the Commission shall be > > > > appointed > > > > by the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > > > > > Provided that as nearly as may be one-half of the members of the > > > > Commission > > > > shall be persons who at the dates of their respective appointments > > > > have held > > > > office for at least ten years under the Government. > > > > > > > > (2) A member of the Commission shall hold office of a terms of five > > > > years > > > > from the date on which he enters upon his office or until he attains > > > > the age > > > > of sixty-five years, whichever is earlier: > > > > > > > > Provided that: > > > > > > > > (a) a member of the Commission may, by writing under his hand > > > > addressed to > > > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, resign his office > > > > > > > > (b) a member of the Commission may be removed from his office in the > > > > manner > > > > hereinafter provided. > > > > > > > > (3) A person who holds office as a member of the Commission shall on > > > > the > > > > expiration of his term of office, be ineligible for re-appointment > > > > to that > > > > office. > > > > > > > > 130. (1) Subject to the provisions of sub-section (3), the Chairman > > > > or any > > > > other member of the Commission shall only be removed from his office > > > > by > > > > order of the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the ground of misbehaviour after the > > > > High > > > > Court on reference being made to it by the Sadar-i--Riyasat, has, on > > > > inquiry > > > > held in that behalf, reported that the Chairman or such other > > > > member, as the > > > > case may be ought on any such ground to be removed. > > > > > > > > The Sadar-i-Riyasat may suspend from office the Chairman or any > > > > other member > > > > of the Commission in respect of whom a reference has been made to > > > > the High > > > > Court under sub-section (l) until the Sadar-i-Riyasat has passed > > > > orders on > > > > receipt of the report of the High Court on such reference. > > > > > > > > (3) Notwithstanding anything in sub-section (1) the Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > may by > > > > order remove from office the Chairman or any other mem-ber of the > > > > Commission > > > > if the Chairman on. such other member, as the case may be - > > > > > > > > (a) is adjudged an insolvent; or > > > > > > > > (b) engages during his term of office in any paid employment out > > > > side the > > > > duties of his office; or > > > > > > > > (c) is, in the opinion of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, unfit to continue in > > > > office > > > > by reason of infirmity of mind or body. > > > > > > > > (4) If the Chairman or any other member of the Commission is or > > > > becomes in > > > > anyway concern-ed or interested in any contract or agreement made by > > > > or on > > > > behalf of the Government of the State, the Government of India or > > > > the > > > > Government of any other State in India or participates in anyway in > > > > the > > > > profit thereof or in any benefit or emolument arising therefrom > > > > otherwise > > > > than as a member and in common with other members of an incorporated > > > > > > > > company, he shall, for the purposes of sub-section (1), be deemed to > > > > be > > > > guilty misbehavi-our. > > > > > > > > 131. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be regulations: > > > > > > > > (a) determine the number of members of the Commission and their > > > > conditions > > > > of service; and > > > > > > > > (b) make provision with respect to the num-ber of members of the > > > > staff of > > > > the Commission and - their conditions of service; > > > > > > > > Provided that the conditions of service of a member of the > > > > Commission shall > > > > not be varied to his disadvantage after his ap-pointment. > > > > > > > > 132. On ceasing to hold office the Chairman and the members of the > > > > Commission shall be ineligible for further office under the > > > > Government of > > > > the State, but a member other than the Chairman shall be eligible > > > > for > > > > appointment as a Chairman of the Commission. > > > > > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this sec-tion; the office of > > > > Minister or > > > > Deputy Minister shall not be deemed to be an office under the > > > > Government of > > > > the state. > > > > > > > > 133. (1) It shall be the duty of the Commissions to conduct > > > > examinations for > > > > appointment to the services of the State. > > > > > > > > (2) The Commission shall be consulted - > > > > > > > > (a) on all matters relating to methods of recruitment to civil > > > > services and > > > > for civil posts; > > > > > > > > (b) on the principles to be followed in making appointments to civil > > > > services and posts and in making promotions and transfers from one > > > > service > > > > to another and on the suitability of candidate for such > > > > appointments, > > > > promotions or transfers; > > > > > > > > (c) on all disciplinary matters affecting a person serving under the > > > > Government including memorials or petitions relating to such > > > > matters; > > > > and it shall be the duty of the Commission to advise on any matter > > > > so > > > > referred to them or on any other matter which the Sadar-i--Riyasat > > > > may refer > > > > to them: > > > > > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may make regulations specifying > > > > the > > > > matters in which either generally, or in any particular class of > > > > cases or in > > > > any particular circumstances, it shall not be necessary for the > > > > Commission > > > > to be consulted. > > > > > > > > (3) Nothing in sub-section (2) shall require the Commission to be > > > > consulted > > > > as respects the manner in which a provision may be made by the State > > > > for the > > > > reservation of appointment or posts in favour of any class of > > > > permanent > > > > residents which in the opinion of the Govern-ment is not adequately > > > > represented in the services under the State. > > > > > > > > (4) All regulations made under the proviso to sub-section (2) by the > > > > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be laid for not less than fourteen days before > > > > each > > > > House of the Legislature as soon as possible after they made, and > > > > shall be > > > > subject to such modifications, whether by way or repeal or > > > > amendment, as the > > > > Legislative Assembly may make during the session in which they are > > > > so laid. > > > > > > > > 134. If the office of the Chairman of the Commission becomes vacant > > > > or if > > > > the Chairman is by reason of absence or for any other reason unable > > > > to > > > > perform the duties of his office, those duties shall until some > > > > person > > > > appointed under sub-section (1) of section 129 to the vacant office > > > > has > > > > entered on the duties thereof or, as the case may be until the > > > > Chairman has > > > > resumed his duties, be performed by such one of the other members of > > > > the > > > > Commission as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may appoint for the purpose. > > > > > > > > 135. An Act made by the Legislature may provide for the exercise of > > > > additional functions by the Commission as respects the services of > > > > the State > > > > and also as respects the services of any local authority or other > > > > body > > > > corporate constituted by law or of any public institution. > > > > > > > > 136. The expenses of the Commission, including any salaries, > > > > allowances and > > > > pensions payable to or in respect of the members or the staff of the > > > > Com-mission, shall be charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State. > > > > > > > > 137. It shall be the duty of the Commission to present annually to > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat a report as to the work done by the Commission and > > > > the > > > > Sadar-I--Riyasat, on receipt of such report, shall cause a copy > > > > thereof > > > > together with a memorandum explai-ning, as respects the cases, if > > > > any, where > > > > the advice of the Commission was not accepted, the reasons for such > > > > non-acceptance to be laid before the Legislature. > > > > > > > > *PART X* > > > > *ELECTIONS* > > > > > > > > 138. (1) The superintendence, direction and control of the > > > > preparation of > > > > the electoral rolls for, and the conduct of, the elections held > > > > under Part > > > > VI shall, be vested in an Election Commissio-ner to be appointed by > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, may, for such period as he may deem > > > > necessary > > > > appoint one or more Deputy Election Commissioners to assist the > > > > Election > > > > Commissioner in the per-formance of the functions conferred by > > > > sub-section > > > > (1). > > > > > > > > (3) subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, > > > > the > > > > Conditions of service of the Election Commissioner and the Deputy > > > > Election > > > > Commissioner shall be such as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order > > > > specify. > > > > > > > > (4) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may make acts viable to the Election > > > > Commissioner > > > > such staff as may be necessary for the discharge of the functions > > > > conferred > > > > on the Election Commissioner by sub-section (1). > > > > > > > > 139. There shall be one general electoral roll for every territorial > > > > constituency for election to either House of the Legislature and no > > > > person > > > > shall be ineligible for inclusion in any such roll or claim to be > > > > inclu-ded > > > > in any special electoral roll for any such consti-tuency on grounds > > > > only of > > > > religion, race, caste, sex or any of them. > > > > > > > > 140. The elections to the Legislative Assembly shall be on the basis > > > > of > > > > adult suffrage; that is to say, every person who is a permanent > > > > resident of > > > > the State and who is not less than twenty-one years of age on such > > > > date as > > > > may be fixed in that behalf by or under any law made by the > > > > Legislature and > > > > is not otherwise disqualified under this Constitution or any law > > > > made by the > > > > Legislature on the ground of non-residence, unsoundness of mind, > > > > crime or > > > > corruptor illegal practice, shall be registered as a voter at any > > > > such > > > > election. > > > > > > > > Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Legislature may > > > > from > > > > time to time by law make provision with respect to all matters > > > > relating to, > > > > or in connection with elections to either House of the Legislature, > > > > including the preparation of elec-toral rolls, the delimitation of > > > > constituencies, appointment of election tribunals and all other > > > > matters > > > > necessary for securing the due constitution of the two Houses. > > > > > > > > 142. Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution: > > > > > > > > (a) the validity of any law relating to the delimita-tion of > > > > territorial > > > > constituencies for the pur-pose of electing members of the > > > > Legislative > > > > Assembly or the allotment of seats to such constituencies, made or > > > > purporting to be made under section 141, shall not be called in > > > > ques-tion in > > > > any court; > > > > > > > > (b) no election to either House of the Legislature shall be called > > > > in > > > > question except by an elec-tion petition present to such authority > > > > and in > > > > such manner as may be provided for by or under any law made by the > > > > Legislature. > > > > > > > > *PART XI* > > > > *MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS* > > > > > > > > 143. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be answerable to any court > > > > for the > > > > exercise of performance of the powers and duties of his office or > > > > for any > > > > act done or purposing to be done by him in the exercise and > > > > performance of > > > > those -powers and duties. > > > > > > > > Provided that nothing in this subjection-sec-tion shall be construed > > > > as > > > > restricting the right of any person to bring appropriate > > > > proceed-ings > > > > against the Government. > > > > > > > > (2) No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or > > > > continued > > > > against the Sadar-I--Riyasat in any court during his term of office. > > > > No > > > > process for the arrest or imprisonment of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall > > > > issue > > > > from any court during his term of office. > > > > > > > > No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > shall be instituted during his term of office in any court in > > > > res-pect of > > > > any act done or purporting to be done by him in his personal > > > > capacity, > > > > whether be-fore or after he entered upon his office as > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > until the expiration of two months next after notice in writing has > > > > been > > > > delivered to the Sadar-i-Riyasat or left at his office stating the > > > > nature of > > > > the proceedings the cause of action therefor, the name, descri-ption > > > > and > > > > place of residence of the party by whom such proceedings are to be > > > > instituted and the relief which he claims. > > > > > > > > 144. The flag of the State shall be rectangular in shape and red in > > > > colour > > > > with three equidistant white vertical stripes of equal with next to > > > > the > > > > staff and a white plough in the middle with the handle facing the > > > > stripes. > > > > > > > > The ratio of the length of the flag to its width shall be 3:2. > > > > > > > > 145. The official language of the State shall be Urdu, but the > > > > English > > > > language shall, unless the Legisla-ture by law otherwise provides > > > > continue > > > > to be used for all the official purpose of the State for which it > > > > was being > > > > used immediately before the com-mencement of this Constitution. > > > > > > > > . The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall, as soon as may be, after the > > > > commencement of > > > > the Constitution establish an Academy of Arts, Culture and Language, > > > > where > > > > opportunities will be afforded for the development of Art and > > > > Culture of the > > > > State and for the development of Hindi, Urdu and other regional > > > > languages of > > > > the State specified in the Sixth Schedule.** > > > > > > > > *PART XII* > > > > *AMENDMENTS OF THE CONSTITUTION* > > > > > > > > 147. An amendment of this constitution may be initia-ted only by the > > > > introduction of a Bill for the pur-pose in the Legislative Assembly > > > > and when > > > > the Bill is passed in each House by a majority of not less than > > > > two-thirds > > > > of the total membership of at the House, it shall be presented to > > > > the > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for his assent and, upon such assent being given to > > > > the > > > > Bill, the Constitution shall stand amended in accordance with the > > > > terms of > > > > the Bill: > > > > > > > > Provided that a Bill providing for the abolition of the Legislative > > > > Council > > > > may be intro-duced in the Legislative Assembly and passed by it > > > > majority of > > > > the total membership of the Assembly and by a majority of not less > > > > than > > > > two-thirds of the members of the Assembly present and voting: > > > > > > > > Provided further that no Bill or amendment seeking to make any > > > > change in: > > > > > > > > (a) this section; > > > > > > > > (b) the provisions of the sections 3 and 5; or > > > > > > > > (c) the provisions of the constitution of India as applicable in > > > > relation to > > > > the State; > > > > > > > > shall be introduced or moved in either house -of the Legislature. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 17:07:29 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:37:29 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The French Response (Musee Guimet Controversy) Message-ID: After I wrote "Tintin in Bengal", I was put in touch with the Dhaka French Embassy, and through them, staff at the Musee Guimet. I sent a list of questions to Guimet show organizers, and received over e-mail the following replies. The French Response http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/06/french-response/ To post your comments, go to: Tintin In Bengal http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ Asterix & The Big Fight http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/03/guimet-the-other-side/ From naresh.rhythm at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 23:10:55 2007 From: naresh.rhythm at gmail.com (Naresh) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 17:40:55 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: vikas inviting for a symposium on the rights of Physically Challenged Message-ID: <00ef01c8382f$1171ace0$7076a13b@hp8eb91caecf7d> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vikas Gupta" To: Cc: ; ; ; Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:05 PM Subject: vikas inviting for a symposium on the rights of Physically Challenged > Please find time and inform others > Vikas Gupta > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 00:15:53 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:45:53 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] BREAKING: Bangladesh Court Blocks Second Shipment To France Message-ID: France-bound relics run into legal snags Thu, Dec 6th, 2007 11:40 pm BdST Dhaka, Dec 6 (bdnews24.com) – The High Court Thursday asked the government to keep up the restrictions until Jan 15 on sending archeological relics to France for display in a museum. The HC bench of justices SK Sinha and ATM Fazle Kabir made the ruling after an appeal filed by archeologist Nurul Islam. Nurul Islam filed a case in October with the Joint District Judges' Court for Dhaka against the decision of sending Bangladeshi artifacts Bangladesh to France. On Nov 29, he appealed to the same court seeking a ban on sending the relics. The court, however, did not hear the appeal, prompting Nurul Islam to file a revision case with the HC. The artifacts were due to be sent for an exhibition at Guimet Museum in France that started on Oct 24. The show ends in March. Barrister Amir-ul Islam who joined the hearing of the case on behalf of Nurul Islam said the state is responsible for protection of national assets in line with the constitution. "The assets cannot be destroyed. According to law, the sender of such assets must hold a licence, but the cultural affairs ministry does not have one," he said. Barrister Moniruzaman Asad assisted Amir-ul Islam in the hearing. He told bdnews24.com that the government had already sent a shipment of artifacts. A second consignment was waiting for shipment, which now ran to legal hurdles because of the fresh court order. From rana at ranadasgupta.com Fri Dec 7 00:41:20 2007 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:11:20 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Lyrical terrorist' sentenced over extremist poetry Message-ID: <475848EA.5070407@ranadasgupta.com> 'Lyrical terrorist' sentenced over extremist poetry Claire Truscott and agencies Thursday December 06 2007 The Guardian A 23-year-old former Heathrow shop assistant who called herself the "lyrical terrorist" and scrawled her extremist thoughts on till receipts has been handed a nine-month suspended jail sentence. Samina Malik became the first woman convicted under new terrorism legislation after writing poems entitled How To Behead and The Living Martyrs. Malik, described as an "unlikely but committed" Islamic extremist, was last month convicted by an jury at the Old Bailey of a charge under the 2000 Terrorism Act. She worked at WH Smith at Heathrow, where she scribbled her extremist lyrics on till receipts. On one she wrote: "The desire within me increases every day to go for martyrdom." But Malik told the jury she only adopted her "lyrical terrorist" nickname because she thought it was "cool" and insisted: "I am not a terrorist." She wept as she was found guilty of possessing records likely to be useful in terrorism by a majority of 10 to one. Two female jurors were also in tears. The court heard that Malik stocked a "library" of material useful to terrorists at her family home in Southall, west London. Jonathan Sharp, prosecuting, told the court she visited a website linked to jailed cleric Abu Hamza and stored material about weapons. The court also heard Malik belonged to a social networking website called hi5, describing her interests as "helping the mujaheddin in any way which I can". Under favourite TV shows, she listed: "Watching videos by my Muslim brothers in Iraq, yep the beheading ones, watching video messages by Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahri and other videos which show massacres of the kaffirs." But Muhammed Abdul Bari, secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said he did not think her actions were a criminal matter. "Many young people download objectionable material from the Internet, but it seems if you are a Muslim then this could lead to criminal charges, even if you have absolutely no intention to do harm to anyone else. "Samina's so-called poetry was certainly offensive but I don't believe this case should really have been a criminal matter. Young people may well have some silly thoughts. That should not be criminalised. It is their actions that we should be concerned about." After her conviction, Judge Peter Beaumont, the recorder of London, warned her that "all sentencing options remain open" as he granted her bail. He told her: "You have been, in many respects, a complete enigma to me." From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 05:31:27 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 00:01:27 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Sudhanva Deshpande's Second Response to my Mail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47588D43.3080103@gmail.com> A belated thought: Deshpande was probably wasting his breath and his ink, because the Times of India carried a report (yesterday?) about Chief Minister Buddhadev Bhattacharya admitting both administrative and political failure in Nandigram. Tapas shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > Dear All, > > Here is Sudhanva Deshpande's response to my second mail addressed to him on > the Subject of Nandigram. In the interests of a fail debate, I thought it > should be posted here for everyone to read. > > regards > > Shuddha > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > December 5, 2007 > > Dear Shuddhabrata, > > I should have written earlier, but I have been travelling (performing, > actually) in the north-east and had no access to internet and email for > about a fortnight. I saw your response to my letter upon return. > > Your eloquence remains overwhelming as ever, as does your capacity for > ctrl+c and ctrl+v jobs. So, again, my response must remain short. > > From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 08:42:46 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:12:46 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Sudhanva Deshpande's Second Response to my Mail References: <47588D43.3080103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003e01c8387f$02fcc0a0$6400a8c0@taraprakash> And also six bodies found just before his mail came through? He seems to be missing the corpses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tapas Ray" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sudhanva Deshpande's Second Response to my Mail >A belated thought: Deshpande was probably wasting his breath and his > ink, because the Times of India carried a report (yesterday?) about > Chief Minister Buddhadev Bhattacharya admitting both administrative and > political failure in Nandigram. > > Tapas > > > > shuddha at sarai.net wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> Here is Sudhanva Deshpande's response to my second mail addressed to him >> on >> the Subject of Nandigram. In the interests of a fail debate, I thought it >> should be posted here for everyone to read. >> >> regards >> >> Shuddha >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> December 5, 2007 >> >> Dear Shuddhabrata, >> >> I should have written earlier, but I have been travelling (performing, >> actually) in the north-east and had no access to internet and email for >> about a fortnight. I saw your response to my letter upon return. >> >> Your eloquence remains overwhelming as ever, as does your capacity for >> ctrl+c and ctrl+v jobs. So, again, my response must remain short. >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From virtuallyme at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 09:42:52 2007 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 04:12:52 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Sudhanva Deshpande's Second Response to my Mail Message-ID: <79e82f610712062012q3e16968enac18d594909e731a@mail.gmail.com> Prakash Karat as reported in todays Hindu (cant find the online article) tells people "Dont equate people with communal forces" and what does he call those who do so - "those doing so are enemies of the country and society". Hmm... now that sounds like rhetoric pinched from some one else's vocabulary! I wonder whose.... Rgds, Rohan > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:01:07 -0500 > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sudhanva Deshpande's Second Response to my > Mail > To: sarai list > Message-ID: <47588D43.3080103 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed > > A belated thought: Deshpande was probably wasting his breath and his > ink, because the Times of India carried a report (yesterday?) about > Chief Minister Buddhadev Bhattacharya admitting both administrative and > political failure in Nandigram. > > Tapas > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 10:09:12 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 04:39:12 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] TASHKENT AGREEMENT Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712062039s21ba5d21l53b2ad42d5099c82@mail.gmail.com> The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan, having met at Tashkent and having discussed the existing relations between India and Pakistan hereby declare their firm resolve to restore normal and peaceful relations between their countries and to promote understanding and friendly relations between their peoples. They consider the attainment of these objectives of vital importance for the welfare of the 600 million people of India and Pakistan. (i) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan agree that both sides will exert all efforts to create good neighborly relations between India and Pakistan in accordance with the United Nations Charter. They reaffirm their obligation under the Charter not to have recourse to force and to settle their disputes through peaceful means. They considered that the interests of peace in their region and particularly in the Indo-Pakistan subcontinent and indeed, the interests of the peoples of India ad Pakistan were not served by the continuance of tension between the two countries. It was against this background that Jammu & Kashmir was discussed, and each of the sides set forth its respective position. *Troops Withdrawal* (ii) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that all armed personnel of the two countries shall be withdrawn not later than 25 February 1966 to the positions they held prior to 5 August 1965, and both sides shall observe the cease-fire terms on the cease-fire line. (iii) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that relations between India and Pakistan shall be based on the principle of non-interference in the internal affairs of each other. (iv) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that both sides will discourage any propaganda directed against the other country and will encourage propaganda which promotes the development of friendly relations between the two countries. (v) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that the High Commissioner of India to Pakistan and the High Commissioner of Pakistan of India will return to their posts and that the normal functioning of diplomatic missions of both countries will be restored. Both Governments shall observe the Vienna Convention of 1961 on Diplomatic Intercourse. *Trade Relations* (vi) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed to consider measures towards the restoration of economic and trade relations, communications as well as cultural exchanges between India and Pakistan, and to take measures to implement the existing agreement between India and Pakistan. (vii) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that they will give instructions to their respective authorities to carry out the repatriation of the prisoners of war. (viii) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that the two sides will continue the discussions of questions relating to the problems of refugees and eviction of illegal immigrations. They also agreed that both sides will create conditions which will prevent the exodus of people. They further agree to discuss the return of the property and assets taken over by either side in connection with the conflict. *Soviet Leaders Thanked* (ix) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan have agreed that the two sides will continue meetings both at highest and at other levels of matters of direct concern to both countries. Both sides have recognized the need to set up joint Indian-Pakistani bodies which will report to their Governments in order to decide what further steps should be taken. (x) The Prime Minister of India and the President of Pakistan record their feelings, deep appreciation and gratitude to the leaders of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Government and personally to the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR for their constructive, friendly and noble part in bringing about the present meeting which has resulted in mutually satisfactory results. They also express to the Government and friendly people of Uzbekistan their sincere thankfulness for their overwhelming reception and generous hospitality. They invite the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR to witness this declaration. Prime Minister of India *Lal Bahadur Shastri * President of Pakistan *Mohammed Ayub Khan* Tashkent, January 10, 1966 From elkamath at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 11:44:32 2007 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 06:14:32 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Announcing : CACIM FORUM FELLOWSHIPS on the World Social Forum Process Message-ID: <178255.19411.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> [Please circulate this widely ! Sorry for any cross-posting] APPLICATIONS ARE INVITED FOR CACIM FORUM FELLOWSHIPS (3) Application Deadline : JANUARY 5 2008 More info @ http://cacim.net/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Fellowships CACIM (Critical Action - Centre in Movement), an initiative towards cultivating and nurturing a culture of critical reflexivity and action in individual and public work, is offering three Fellowships on the World Social Forum process. CACIM is involved in detailed research on and documentation of the Forum and other related processes (such as social movements); plays an active role in the organising process of WSF in India and globally; publishes books, reports, newsletters, and bibliographies on the Forum, both in Hindi and English; and organises debates and discussions around related issues. For more details of our work on the Forum, see www.openspaceforum.net and www.cacim.net. This is the first round of the award of these Fellowships. CACIM is instituting the Forum Fellowships in order to provide opportunities for young activists, students, and researchers to conduct studies on different aspects of the Forum process in India and globally. This would include intensive interaction with social and popular movements and civil organisations and networks in India and South Asia who are part of the WSF process, and also with movements and organisations who have either boycotted or stayed away from the WSF and/or who take part in similar but alternative processes. Through this, we hope that the Fellowships will provide the opportunity to the Fellows to also engage with and study wider socio-political processes in the country, in order for them to develop, broaden, and deepen a critical engagement with the Forum process. We would like them to critically examine the procedural depth, methodology, and potentialities of the Forum and the 'new politics' of 'open space' that it professes and the impact it and these politics may be having on socio-political movements and processes in the region, by undertaking surveys, interviews, and discussions with the main actors in the process. The Forum Fellowships, offered for a period of three months (January 16 – April 15 2008), will provide candidates with Rs. 40,000 for the preparation of a research paper to be presented at a Workshop on the WSF that CACIM will organise during May-June 2007. Selected Fellows will be provided with literature published on the Forum and with contacts in India and worldwide, and in general, will receive assistance in sharpening their proposal; and CACIM will take care of travel, boarding, and lodging for attending the Workshop. For this first round of Fellowships, we are accepting applications only from people living within India, both Indian and other nationalities. Candidates may be from any discipline and background. No formal academic qualification is required for application. Applications can be in English or Hindi. Due to our own limitations at the moment, we are not able to entertain applications in other languages but we would welcome ideas for including them in this endeavour. The following are some suggested themes for study, but not necessarily limited to these areas only : - The dynamics of WSF as well as of Mumbai Resistance in 2004 and of other autonomous spaces, counter forums, mobilisation campaigns, and other forums that have emerged around the WSF process in India and elsewhere in the world. - The experiences, visions, aspirations, and expectations of the various sections of society of the WSF, such as the Dalits, Adivasis, women, the physically challenged, sexual minorities, and others, as well as their questions and dilemmas in this regard, through their engagement with the Forum process. - The social and political significance of Forum process, its relationship with other movements, its organising process, and its regional and global expansion. - The political economy and the organising principles of the Forum, in India and worldwide. Please send your application in along with : - A short abstract indicating the scope and nature of your proposed research and the approach you would like to take to it - One writing sample (published or unpublished), and - Your detailed CV to Madhuresh, CACIM Programme Coordinator by email (cacim at cacim.net) or post by January 5 2008. CACIM, A-3 Defence Colony, New Delhi 110 024, India Ph : +91-11-4155 1521, +91-11-2433 2451 cacim at cacim.net, www.cacim.net / www.openspaceforum.net ______________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From aman.am at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 12:41:29 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 07:11:29 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Shotgun and the Sniper: Notes from the World Conference for Climate Change Message-ID: <995a19920712072311s4674753am9c38d63bed9f08e3@mail.gmail.com> Apologies for X posting on www.kafila.org "The time for silver bullets has passed," proclaimed Marc Stewart, "What we need is a Shotgun!" In his bright Bali shirt, Nike sneakers and Investment Banker haircut, Mr Stewart is the firm-handshaking, fist pumping, ever effusive all-American co-founder of Ecosecurities, a firm that specialises in developing and marketing carbon trading projects under the Clean Development Mechanism - CDM - of the Kyoto Protocol. With emission reductions under Kyoto less than a month away, Mr Stewart's firm is looking to extend its market capitalisation to far beyond its existing 40 million USD. The Ecosecurity model functions in the following way - they find and help develop projects in the developing world that is eligible for credit credits under the CDM, and then sell the credits in to firms in EU and across the orld that are looking to meet their Kyoto targets by offsetting excess emissions against carbon credits. Firms like Ecosecurities pushed the carbon market to 30 billion dollars in 2006; and if Annex 1 agrees to further emission cuts (25-40 per cent below 1992 by 2020) the potential size of the market is open to the most optimistic hyperbole. The "Shotgun Approach" suggested by Stewart was his response to the fact that Climate Change is a "reality that needs to be addressed NOW" - and that governments, international bodies and business would have to proceed on a rampage on all possible fronts simultaneously - sort of like the blunt double-barrelled, pump action shotguns freely available back home in America. The Shotgun approach was Mr Stewart's reason for opening up and extending carbon markets to as many sectors as possible - particularly Forestry. If we were to examine the shotgun metaphor in some detail, we find the shotgun is best known for its tremendous stopping power at short-ranges (say 40 per cent reduction in 10 years?), and the fact that on firing, the shot divides up into pellets, making it easy to hit small targets at some distance, allowing even inexperienced marksmen to use it with a fair degree of competency. And Mr Stewart is not the only one holding the shotgun. A week into the climate change conference, there seems to be a very interesting development paradigm emerging that is vaguely reminiscent of the AIDS approach to development. Under the adaptation and mitigation arms of Climate change - it is possible to embark on any number of projects in the guise of saving the planet. While "Saving the Poor" has clearly lost some of lustre on the funding markets, "Saving the Planet" seems to be bringing in some serious money from governments, donor bodies and private enterprise. The fact that climate shall hit everyone in end, and not just the "poor and vulnerable" (though it is routinely stressed that they shall be the worst hit) seems to have motivated some serious thinking. The first week at Bali has largely centred around the "tremendous opportunites presented by Climate Change." Thus you have sessions on "Climate Change and Gender", "Climate Change and Health", "Climate Change and the Millenium Development Goals", "Leadership and Climate Change", and my personal favourite "Climate Change and HIV/AIDS." Fire the Climate Change Shotgun and hit a whole collection of development indices - big ones at short ranges, small ones at longer ranges. The approach might just have some benefits - given the urgency of the problem (and yes, Climate Change is a real, serious, significant problem that has to be dealt with); groups working on thankless, under-funded projects like Malaria, disaster management, and drought relief might finally get the money they require - and all projects need to be "sexed up" to fit into donor spending agenda. What is interesting is the shift one sees from an earlier approach to development - which could be termed the "Sniper Approach" (My metaphor, not Mr Stewart's). The Sniper rifle, is a specialised rifle designed to maximise accuracy over long distances to hit precise targets. Thus, the Sniper Approach could be understood as a metaphor for highly decentralised specific schemes that target specific projects. These were much in vogue in the late nineties and continue to be applied in community level projects - where the approach is custom designed for the community in question and takes on board their specific needs. The Sniper approach was supposed to reduce system leakages, often using information technology and verification apparatus and was favoured by organisations like the World Bank to ensure that benefits of specific schemes were "targeted" (coincidentally a word that development agencies use a lot) at those that needed them the most. The idea was to introduce fiscal discipline in developing economies and ensure that the limited subsidies that were handed out went to the intended recipients. India's TPDS - or Targeted Public Distribution System - could be a useful example of such a scheme. Another one could be the Micro-credit intiatives and SHGs (Self Help Groups), so loved by one and all; but i suppose the fact that SHG's operate on small scales and ranges could call for Pistol/ Handgun Initiatives. One week into the conference, it is hard to tell what approach to take - perhaps one could take all three on board and step out battle-hardened and armed to the teeth. Personally, I find myself sympathetic to cause of the solar powered tazer : renewable, zero-emissions and allegedly non-lethal; always a good way to start saving the world. Best Aman From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 14:49:33 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 09:19:33 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Independant Sarai Fellow: a ( dream) working question Message-ID: <47e122a70712080118g2c0170fbx7f84cef6f49c0366@mail.gmail.com> Dear All In response to "what is Trans ? ": Independent Fellows- open interactive session. Sarai CSDS- Working Questions, 4th to 7th Dec. 2007, LTG Gallery, Mandi House, New Delhi concluding day. Obviously there are many answers to this question, both old and modern. But I want to share my dream, a dream which we all see when deep in slumber, a dream which we remember…years after even.: ' I was in the audience. It was evening time, so I don't know the gender, and therefore, let us say ' the artist' who was sitting on a big iron plate. The round black iron plate was upon something very hot, but strangely no light was coming out. Except small movements of the artist everything was calm when I slowly moved closer and closer to the artist. And no sooner I touched The Artist's shoulder it emitted a spark like thing which almost pushed me back to my space. After a moment or so, the artist began to build a wall of mud balls. Each mud ball was almost bigger than a brick which was slowly gaining height around his body; and within a minute or so the artist went inside the circular mud wall, and was completely inaccessible. I remember so vividly the colour and the texture of the mud balls" This much I remember, but I don't remember if I was disturbed by something or the dream itself ended. In the LTG lawns, two friends, with whom I already shared the dream started interpreting it, which is perfectly normal, and it is precisely here, that I also want to know the meaning of the dream, if there is one. Freud says that the dream is unreal but the sweating it causes is real. What is sweating in this case ? Sometimes my own performances afterwards look like dreams to me even. But I know what I did was not a dream. It was perhaps a mixture of reality and dream, self invented ritual, history and art history, self and other, radical and mundane, political and aesthetic, inside and outside etc. One first layer about the dream is that I was one amongst the audience and therefore I could not have been the artist, who was traveling more and more towards his ' achinpur' ( village-inwardly ) or becoming more and more personal. So as audience what I gained from seeing the artist's performance ? In this sense nothing, because, in the end it was all about her/him only. I can not imitate the performance in any case because it was the artists's moment of death also, and if I want to do die while doing a performance I must die my own way, that is the least. So what is the gain ? Nothing So is there no benefit of that experience to the audience? But I guess, I had something to share. I am happy although I don't know what actually happened So I except a response from other independent fellows, if there is a possibility to apply this dream to other faculties as well, which is quite unrealistic, I know, but still… With love Inder salim P.S. just a note of thanks to CSDS Sarai team... please convey my feelings to other team members as well who helped me and others in realizing the event joyfully .... i am really delighted hugs -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 17:47:17 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:17:17 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Anjum Chaudri Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712080417j1c31be82r51e071c0588d1b2f@mail.gmail.com> http://youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4# From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 18:42:47 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:12:47 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu Protests in Malaysia In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712052041g6df4eaaewed3dc8df62b092b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712052041g6df4eaaewed3dc8df62b092b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990712080512u79c4934ewcd2c98d994a5e7b5@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, Typically, each of us who post here do it with a specific view point. What's yours? Do you think the Malaysian Government is justified in suppressing voices / activities against the country's constitution / religion? Rgds, Partha .............. On Dec 6, 2007 10:11 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > http://friskodude.blogspot.com/2007/11/hindu-protests-in-malaysia.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 19:26:02 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:56:02 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWN Dec 5, 2007) Message-ID: <230080.4460.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Common sense under attack By Mahir Ali http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mahir/arc-mahir.htm WHEN she arrived in Khartoum four months ago, Gillian Gibbons couldn’t possibly have had any inkling that she’d be headed back to England some four months later, following a stint in prison. In a statement issued last Saturday, the incarcerated 54-year-old Liverpudlian said she wasn’t keen to leave Sudan and would much rather return to work. “The Sudanese people in general have been pleasant and very generous,’’ she noted, “and I’ve had nothing but good experiences during my four months here.” What makes the level of equanimity and goodwill remarkable is that the previous day, following Friday prayers, there were mobs baying for her blood, demanding that the 15-day prison sentence handed down by a Khartoum court be upgraded to death by a firing squad. So, what exactly did Gibbons do to inspire such demands for vengeance? Well, a month into her stint as a teacher at the Unity School, where she was in charge of seven-year-olds, she came up with a device for engaging the kids’ interest in one of the designated topics: bears. One of the children brought her teddy bear to school and her classmates were assigned the task of taking the teddy home, one by one, and writing about their experiences. Before the project got underway, Gibbons asked the kids to choose a name for the cuddly toy. There were various suggestions, including Abdullah and Hassan. A little boy called Mohammad put forward his own name for consideration. The teacher arranged a class vote and Mohammad won hands down. She accepted the democratic verdict. Reasonably enough, the idea that anyone would find this objectionable appears not to have so much as crossed her mind. Two months later, police arrived at the Unity compound to arrest Gibbons for insulting Islam. The school’s director, Robert Boulos, was told that some parents had complained to the ministry of education. It subsequently turned out that the sole complainant was in fact an office assistant at the school, who served as the main witness for the prosecution - or, to be more precise, persecution. The verdict of 15 days in prison followed by deportation occasioned sighs of relief, given that it could have been worse: six months in prison and 40 lashes. At the weekend, two Muslim British peers were engaged in negotiations with the Sudanese authorities in Khartoum, and they were expected to fly back to London with Gibbons after obtaining a presidential pardon. That’s all very well, but the point remains that the only insult in this case - an insult to common sense, if not to Islam - came from those who pursued a vendetta on patently absurd grounds. It has been argued that Gibbons erred inadvertently, that as a novice in Sudan she was unaware of cultural sensitivities. That’s an unnecessarily patronising point of view; I suspect she erred only in failing to make an allowance for the idiocy of some Muslims. It has also been suggested that the Sudanese government stoked the controversy in order to draw international attention away from the monumental tragedy in Darfur. There may be some truth in that, but there’s probably more logic in sheeting home the blame to sheer dogmatic blockheadedness. An example of considerably more egregious judicial malice has, meanwhile, surfaced in Saudi Arabia, where a victim of gang rape has been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison. The supposed logic behind this punishment illustrates the extent to which the kingdom operates in a different time zone from much of the world - in terms of centuries rather than hours. The unnamed, recently married 19-year-old, who has been dubbed the Qatif girl in a reference to her mainly Shia hometown, apparently wished to retrieve a photograph of herself from a former male acquaintance before she moved in with her husband, so she arranged a meeting with the young man. While the two of them were in a car, they were accosted by a couple of men armed with knives, who took them to an isolated area. The young woman was violated 14 times by seven men, three of whom also raped her companion. When the case came before a Qatif court, the judges sentenced four of the assailants to terms ranging up to five years for kidnapping, but also sentenced the Qatif girl and her male friend to 90 lashes each for the ‘crime’ of being in each other’s company. Her lawyer, a human rights advocate by the name of Abdul-Rehman al-Lahem, filed an appeal and also brought the case to the notice of the media. He was consequently stripped of his licence, and his client’s sentence was more than doubled to 200 lashes plus six months in prison. There are grounds for assuming that officially sanctioned crimes against humanity along these lines are not exactly a rarity in Saudi Arabia, although they don’t always attract international attention. Queried on the subject during his Annapolis trip last week, Prince Saud al-Faisal commented: “What is outraging about this case is that it is being used against the Saudi government and its people.” In fact, what is ‘outraging’ about this case is that the victims of an abominable crime have been sentenced to humiliating and painful punishments on utterly frivolous grounds, and that too on the basis of depositions by their assailants. Such instances make it extremely difficult to take Islamic justice seriously. The Saudi justice ministry has sought to malign the Qatif girl by saying that she has confessed to having an extramarital affair - which, apart from probably being untrue, is neither here nor there. The only hopeful signs in this context are al-Lahem’s endeavours, plus the fact that the Qatif girl’s husband has chosen to serve as a pillar of support instead of divorcing her. What’s more, at least a couple of Saudi columnists have dared to raise their voices against their nation’s system of injustice. Much of the West, meanwhile, continues to court Riyadh as if it were a bastion of sanity and stability in an otherwise turbulent region. Inanities in the name of Islam are not restricted to Sudan and Saudi Arabia, of course. Pakistan frequently emerges as a venue for all manner of excesses. Recent examples from a few neighbouring countries, however, should suffice to bear out this contention. In Iran, 27-year-old Dr Zahra Baniyaghoub died while in the custody of the morality and virtue police after she and her fiancé were arrested for chatting to each other in a public park. The authorities claimed she committed suicide, but Baniyaghoub’s family doesn’t accept this explanation, evidently for very good reasons, and has engaged the services of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Shirin Ebadi to press for an inquiry. In India, Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen continues to be hounded by Muslims for her supposed blasphemy, while in Turkey Erol Karaaslan, the translator and publisher of Richard Dawkins’ atheist treatise The God Delusion faces charges of inciting religious hatred. Karaaslan is about as guilty as Gillian Gibbons. It should be clear to even the meanest intelligence that the dimwits engaged in turning molehills into mountains are doing a monumental disservice to the faith they purport to uphold. The writer is a journalist based in Sydney. mahir.worldview at gmail.com --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From elkamath at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 20:23:44 2007 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:53:44 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Announcing : CACIM FORUM FELLOWSHIPS on the World Social Forum Process Message-ID: <178255.19411.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> [Please circulate this widely ! Sorry for any cross-posting] APPLICATIONS ARE INVITED FOR CACIM FORUM FELLOWSHIPS (3) Application Deadline : JANUARY 5 2008 More info @ http://cacim.net/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Fellowships CACIM (Critical Action - Centre in Movement), an initiative towards cultivating and nurturing a culture of critical reflexivity and action in individual and public work, is offering three Fellowships on the World Social Forum process. CACIM is involved in detailed research on and documentation of the Forum and other related processes (such as social movements); plays an active role in the organising process of WSF in India and globally; publishes books, reports, newsletters, and bibliographies on the Forum, both in Hindi and English; and organises debates and discussions around related issues. For more details of our work on the Forum, see www.openspaceforum.net and www.cacim.net. This is the first round of the award of these Fellowships. CACIM is instituting the Forum Fellowships in order to provide opportunities for young activists, students, and researchers to conduct studies on different aspects of the Forum process in India and globally. This would include intensive interaction with social and popular movements and civil organisations and networks in India and South Asia who are part of the WSF process, and also with movements and organisations who have either boycotted or stayed away from the WSF and/or who take part in similar but alternative processes. Through this, we hope that the Fellowships will provide the opportunity to the Fellows to also engage with and study wider socio-political processes in the country, in order for them to develop, broaden, and deepen a critical engagement with the Forum process. We would like them to critically examine the procedural depth, methodology, and potentialities of the Forum and the 'new politics' of 'open space' that it professes and the impact it and these politics may be having on socio-political movements and processes in the region, by undertaking surveys, interviews, and discussions with the main actors in the process. The Forum Fellowships, offered for a period of three months (January 16 – April 15 2008), will provide candidates with Rs. 40,000 for the preparation of a research paper to be presented at a Workshop on the WSF that CACIM will organise during May-June 2007. Selected Fellows will be provided with literature published on the Forum and with contacts in India and worldwide, and in general, will receive assistance in sharpening their proposal; and CACIM will take care of travel, boarding, and lodging for attending the Workshop. For this first round of Fellowships, we are accepting applications only from people living within India, both Indian and other nationalities. Candidates may be from any discipline and background. No formal academic qualification is required for application. Applications can be in English or Hindi. Due to our own limitations at the moment, we are not able to entertain applications in other languages but we would welcome ideas for including them in this endeavour. The following are some suggested themes for study, but not necessarily limited to these areas only : - The dynamics of WSF as well as of Mumbai Resistance in 2004 and of other autonomous spaces, counter forums, mobilisation campaigns, and other forums that have emerged around the WSF process in India and elsewhere in the world. - The experiences, visions, aspirations, and expectations of the various sections of society of the WSF, such as the Dalits, Adivasis, women, the physically challenged, sexual minorities, and others, as well as their questions and dilemmas in this regard, through their engagement with the Forum process. - The social and political significance of Forum process, its relationship with other movements, its organising process, and its regional and global expansion. - The political economy and the organising principles of the Forum, in India and worldwide. Please send your application in along with : - A short abstract indicating the scope and nature of your proposed research and the approach you would like to take to it - One writing sample (published or unpublished), and - Your detailed CV to Madhuresh, CACIM Programme Coordinator by email (cacim at cacim.net) or post by January 5 2008. CACIM, A-3 Defence Colony, New Delhi 110 024, India Ph : +91-11-4155 1521, +91-11-2433 2451 cacim at cacim.net, www.cacim.net / www.openspaceforum.net ______________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From babuubab at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 23:24:06 2007 From: babuubab at gmail.com (Babu Sundara) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:54:06 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956 - Legal Document No 140 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712052256t5e728a6cu804e0626dc46b174@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712032212g706cd56fgded848aed79d7fe9@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0712052245w34827defg5024615bce1465c4@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712052250w58232c42wdf6452400bd62734@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0712052252i123d9057j767dafbc79c5c38a@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712052256t5e728a6cu804e0626dc46b174@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <66ec95310712080953p2d2756bdn6c88c94970687b7b@mail.gmail.com> Hi. To add to the discussion, these so called facts or "facts" loose its relevance and becomes a great joke, if we are aware of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act 1958 and Public Safety Act in J&K. regard, sundara babu On 06/12/2007, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Aarti Ji , > > I never said that you in particular are ignorant of these facts . You are > highly intelligent and knowledgable . And I am sure there would be few who > would be ignorant about these facts. > > Maybe ,many of them who do not live in India. > > regards > > Pawan > > > On 12/6/07, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > > > And which "facts" does this extract present us with which you claim we > are > > in ignorance of? Even more interesting, what makes them "facts"? It > might be > > fruitful to spend some time thinking about the latter... > > > > On Dec 6, 2007 12:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Dear Aarti , > > > > > > Sometimes I feel the readers should be fed with some intresting facts > > > which are otherwise ignored. > > > > > > Pawan > > > Was your mail intended for me or the group ? > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/6/07, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > Fascinating. But exactly what is this in aid of? > > > > > > > > best > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 4, 2007 11:42 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > > > > > > *The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, 1956* > > > > > Legal Document No 140 > > > > > *(Extract)* > > > > > > > > > > We, the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having solemnly > > > > > resolved, > > > > > in pursuance of accession of this State to > > > > > India which took place on the twenty-sixth day of October, 1947, > to > > > > > further > > > > > define the existing relationship of the State with the Union of > > > > > India as an > > > > > integral part thereof, and to secure to ourselves. > > > > > > > > > > *JUSTICE*, social, economic and political; > > > > > *LIBERTY* of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > > > EQUALITY of > > > > > status and of opportunity; and to promote among us all; > > > > > *FRATERNITY*, assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity > > > > > of the > > > > > Nation; > > > > > > > > > > *IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY* This seventeenth day of November, > 1956 > > > > > do > > > > > Hereby Adopt Enact and Give to ourselves this constitution. > > > > > > > > > > *PART I* > > > > > *PRELIMINARY* > > > > > > > > > > 1. (1) this Constitution may be called the Constitution of Jammu > and > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir. > > > > > > > > > > (2) This section and sections 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 158 shall come > > > > > into force > > > > > et once and the remaining provisions of this constitution shall > come > > > > > into > > > > > force on the twenty-sixth day of January, 1957, which day is > > > > > referred to in > > > > > this Constitution as the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > 2. (I) In this Constitution, unless the context other-wise > > > > > requires. > > > > > > > > > > (a) "Constitution of India" means the Constitu-tion of India as > > > > > applicable > > > > > in relation to this State. > > > > > > > > > > (b) "existing law" means any law, ordinance, order bye-law, rule > > > > > notification; or regulation based, made or issued before the > > > > > commence-ment > > > > > of this Constitution by the Legislature or other competent > authority > > > > > or > > > > > person hav-ing power to pass. make or issue such law, ordinance, > > > > > order > > > > > bye-law rule, notification or regulation; > > > > > > > > > > (c) "Part" means a part of this Constitution; > > > > > > > > > > (d) "Schedule" means a schedule to this Constitution; and > > > > > > > > > > (e) "taxation" includes the imposition of any tax or impost, > whether > > > > > general > > > > > or local or special, and "tax" shall be construed accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Any reference in this Constitution to Acts or laws of the > State > > > > > Legislature shall be construed as in-cluding a reference to an > > > > > Ordianance > > > > > made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > *PART II* > > > > > *THE STATE* > > > > > > > > > > (3) The State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral > part > > > > > of the > > > > > Union of India. > > > > > > > > > > (4) The territory of the State shall comprise all the territories > > > > > which on > > > > > the fifteenth day of August, 1947, were under the sovereignty or > > > > > suzerainty > > > > > of the Ruler of the State. > > > > > > > > > > (5) The executive and legislative power of the State extends to > all > > > > > matters > > > > > except those with respect to which Parliament has power to make > laws > > > > > for the > > > > > State under the provisions of the Constitution of India. > > > > > > > > > > *PART III* > > > > > *PERMANENT RESIDENTS* > > > > > > > > > > (6) (l) Every person who is, or is deemed to be, a citizen of > India > > > > > under > > > > > the provisions of the Constitution of India shall be a permanent > > > > > resident of > > > > > the State, if on the fourteenth day of May, 1954. > > > > > > > > > > (a) he was a State subject of class I or of class II: or > > > > > > > > > > (b) having lawfully acquired immovable pro-perty in the State, he > > > > > has been > > > > > ordinarily resident in the State for not less than ten years prior > > > > > to that > > > > > date. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Any person who, before the fourteenth day of May, 1954 was a > > > > > State > > > > > subject of Class I or of Class II and who, having migrated after > the > > > > > first > > > > > day of March, 1947, to the territory -now included in Pakistan, > > > > > returns to > > > > > the State under a permit for resettlement in the State or for > > > > > permanent > > > > > return issued by or under the authority of any law made by the > State > > > > > > > > > > Legislature shall on such return be a permanent resident of the > > > > > State. > > > > > > > > > > (3) In this section, the expression "State subject of Class I or > of > > > > > Class > > > > > II" shall have the same -meaning as the State Notification No > I-L/84 > > > > > dated > > > > > the twentieth April. '1927, read with State Notification No 13/L > > > > > dated the > > > > > twenty- seventh June, 1932. > > > > > > > > > > 7. Unless the context otherwise requires, all referen-ces in any > > > > > existing > > > > > law to hereditary State subject or to State subject of class I or > of > > > > > Class > > > > > II or of class III shall be construed as references to perma-nent > > > > > residents > > > > > of the State. > > > > > > > > > > 8. Nothing in foregoing provisions of this part shall derogate > from > > > > > the > > > > > power of the State legislature to make any law defining the > classes > > > > > the > > > > > persons who are, or shall be permanent residents of the State. > > > > > > > > > > 9. A Bill marking provision for any of the following matters, > > > > > namely. > > > > > > > > > > (a) defining or altering the definition of, the classes of persons > > > > > who are, > > > > > or shall be, per-manent residents of the State; > > > > > > > > > > (b) conferring on permanent residents any special rights or > > > > > privileges; > > > > > > > > > > (c) regulating or modifying any special rights or privileges > enjoyed > > > > > by > > > > > permanent residents; > > > > > shall be deemed to be passed by either House of the Legislature > only > > > > > if It > > > > > is passed by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the total > > > > > membership > > > > > of that House. > > > > > > > > > > 10. The permanent residents of the State shall have all the rights > > > > > guaranteed to them under the Constitution of India. > > > > > > > > > > *PART IV* > > > > > *DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF STATE POLICY* > > > > > > > > > > 11. In this part, unless the context otherwise requires, the State > > > > > includes > > > > > the Government and the Legis-lature of the State and all local or > > > > > other > > > > > authori-ties within the territory of the State or under the > control > > > > > of the > > > > > Government of the State. > > > > > > > > > > 12. The provisions contained in this Part shall not be enforceable > > > > > by any > > > > > court, but the principles therein laid down are nevertheless > > > > > fundamental in > > > > > the governance of the State and it shall be the duty of the State > to > > > > > apply > > > > > these principles in making laws. > > > > > > > > > > 13. The prime object of the State consistent with the ideals and > > > > > objectives > > > > > of the freedom movement envisaged in "New Kashmir" shall be the > > > > > pro-motion > > > > > of the welfare of the mass of the people by establishing and > > > > > preserving a > > > > > socialist order of society wherein all exploitation of man has > been > > > > > abolished and wherein justice-social, economic and political-shall > > > > > inform > > > > > all the institutions of natio-nal life. > > > > > > > > > > 14. Consistently with the objectives outlined in the foregoing > > > > > section, the > > > > > State shall develop in a planed manner the productive forces of > the > > > > > coun-try > > > > > with a view to enriching the material and cul-tural life of the > > > > > people and > > > > > foster and protect. > > > > > > > > > > (a) the public sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by > > > > > the State; > > > > > > > > > > (b) the co-operative sector where the means of > > > > > production are co-operatively owned by indi-viduals or groups of > > > > > individuals; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) the private sector where the means of produc-tion are owned by > > > > > an > > > > > individual or a corpora-tion employing labour, provided that the > > > > > operation > > > > > of this sector is not allowed to result in the concentration of > > > > > wealth or of > > > > > the means of production to the common detriment. > > > > > > > > > > 15. The State shall endeavour to organise and develop agriculture > > > > > and animal > > > > > husbandry by bringing to the aid of the cultivator tile benefits > of > > > > > modern > > > > > and scientific research and techniques so as to ensure a speedy > > > > > improvement > > > > > in the standard of living as also the prosperity of the rural > > > > > masses. > > > > > > > > > > 16. The State shall take steps to organise village panchayats and > > > > > endow them > > > > > with such powers and authority as may be necessary to enable them > to > > > > > > > > > > function as units of self-government. > > > > > > > > > > 17. The State shall, in order to rehabilitate, guide and promote > the > > > > > renowned crafts and cottage indus-tries of the State, initiate and > > > > > execute > > > > > well consi-dered programmes for refining and modernising > techniques > > > > > and > > > > > modes of production, including the employment of cheap power so > that > > > > > unnece-ssary drudgery and toil of the workers are elimi-nated and > > > > > the > > > > > artistic value of the products en-hanced, while Else fullest scope > > > > > is > > > > > provided for the encouragement and development of individual > talent > > > > > and > > > > > initiative. > > > > > > > > > > 18. The State shall lake steps to separate the judiciary from the > > > > > executive > > > > > in the public-services, and shall seek to secure a judicial system > > > > > which is > > > > > humane, cheap, certain, objective and impartial, whereby justice > > > > > shall be > > > > > done and shall be seen to be done and shall further strive to > ensure > > > > > > > > > > efficiency, im-partiality and incorruptibility of its various > organs > > > > > of > > > > > justice, administration and public utility. > > > > > > > > > > 19. The State shall, within the limits of its economic capacity > and > > > > > development, make effective provi-sion for securing: > > > > > > > > > > (a) that all permanent residents, man and women equally, have the > > > > > right to > > > > > work, that is, the right to receive guaranteed work with pay-ment > > > > > for labour > > > > > in accordance with its quan-tity and quality subject to a basic > > > > > minimum and > > > > > maximum wage established by law; > > > > > > > > > > (b) that the health and strength of workers, men and women and the > > > > > tender > > > > > age of children are not abused and that permanent residents are > not > > > > > forced > > > > > by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, > age > > > > > or > > > > > strength; > > > > > > > > > > (c) that all workers, agricultural or otherwise have > reasonable, > > > > > just and > > > > > humane conditions of work with full enjoyment of leisure and > social > > > > > and > > > > > cultural opportunities, and > > > > > > > > > > (d) that all permanent residents have adequate maintenance in old > > > > > age as > > > > > well as in the event of sickness, disablement unemployment and > other > > > > > cases > > > > > of undeserved want by providing social insurance, medical aid, > > > > > hospitals, > > > > > sana-toria and health resorts at State expense. > > > > > > > > > > 20. The State shall endeavour: > > > > > > > > > > (a) to secure to every permanent resident the right to free > > > > > education upto > > > > > the University standard; > > > > > > > > > > (b) to provide, within a period often years from the commencement > of > > > > > this > > > > > constitution, com-pulsory education for all children until they > > > > > complete the > > > > > age of fourteen years; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) to ensure to all workers and employees ade-quate facilities > for > > > > > adult > > > > > education and part -time technical, professional and vocational > > > > > courses. > > > > > > > > > > 21. The State shall strive to secure: > > > > > > > > > > (a) to all children the right to happy childhood with adequate > > > > > medical care > > > > > and attention; and > > > > > > > > > > (b) to all children and youth equal opportunities in education and > > > > > employment, protection against exploitation, and against moral or > > > > > material > > > > > abandonment. > > > > > > > > > > 22. The State shall endeavour to secure to all women: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the right to equal pay for equal work; > > > > > > > > > > (b) the right to maternity benefits as well as ade-quate medical > > > > > care in all > > > > > employments; > > > > > > > > > > (c) the right reasonable maintenance, extending to cases of > married > > > > > women > > > > > who have been divorced or abandoned; > > > > > > > > > > (d) the right to full equality in all social, educa-tional, > > > > > political and > > > > > legal matters; and > > > > > > > > > > (e) special protection against discourtesy, defama-tion, > hoolganism > > > > > and > > > > > other forms of miscon-duct. > > > > > > > > > > 23. The State shall guarantee to the socially and edu-cationally > > > > > backward > > > > > sections of the people special care in the promotion of their > > > > > educational, > > > > > mate rial and cultural interests and protection against social > > > > > injustice. > > > > > > > > > > 24. The State shall make every effort to safeguard and promote the > > > > > health of > > > > > the people by advancing public hygiene and by prevention of > disease > > > > > through > > > > > sanitation, pest and vermin control, propaganda and other > measures, > > > > > and by > > > > > ensuring widespread, efficient and free medical services > throughout > > > > > the > > > > > State and, with particular emphasis, in its remote and backward > > > > > regions. > > > > > > > > > > 25. The State shall combat ignorance, superstition, fanaticism, > > > > > communialism, racialism, cultural > > > > > backwardness and shall seek to foster brotherhood and equality > among > > > > > all > > > > > communities under the aegis of a secular State. > > > > > > > > > > *PART V* > > > > > *THE EXECUTIVE* > > > > > *THE SADAR-I-RIYASAT* > > > > > > > > > > 26. (1) The Head of the State shall be designated as the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The executive power of the State shall be vested in the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > and shall be exercised by him either directly or through officers > > > > > subordinate to him in accordance with this Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Nothing in this Section shall: > > > > > > > > > > (a) be deemed to transfer to the Sadar-i--Riyasat any functions > > > > > conferred by > > > > > any existing law on any other authority; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) prevent the State legislature from confer-ring by law > functions > > > > > on any > > > > > authority subordinate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > 27. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be the person who for the time being > > > > > is > > > > > recognised by the President as such: > > > > > Provided that no person shall be so recognised unless he: > > > > > > > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the state; > > > > > (b) is not less than twenty-five years of age; and > > > > > (c) has been elected as Sadar-i-Riyasat by a majority of the total > > > > > membership of the Legislative Assembly in the manner set out in > the > > > > > First > > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > 28. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall hold office during the pleasure > of > > > > > the > > > > > President. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may, be writing under his hand addressed > to > > > > > the > > > > > President, resign his office. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Subject to the foregoing provision of this section, the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > shall hold office for a term of five years from the date on which > he > > > > > enters > > > > > upon his office: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that he shall notwithstanding the expiration of his term, > > > > > continue > > > > > to hold office until his successor enters upon his offlee. > > > > > > > > > > 29. A person who holds or has held office as Sadar-i-Riyasat > shall, > > > > > subject > > > > > to the other provisions of this Constitution, be eligible for > > > > > reselection to > > > > > that office. > > > > > > > > > > 30. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be a member of either House > of > > > > > Legislature and if a member of either House be elected and > > > > > recognised as > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, he shall be deemed to have vacated his seat in > the > > > > > House on > > > > > the date on which he enters upon his office as Sadar-I-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not hold any other office of profit. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall be entitled to such emoluments, > > > > > allowances and > > > > > privileges as are specified in the second schedule. > > > > > > > > > > (4) The emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not > > > > > be > > > > > diminished during his term of office. > > > > > > > > > > 31. The Sadar-i-Riyasat and every person acting as Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > shall, > > > > > before entering upon his office, make and subscribe in the > presence > > > > > of the > > > > > Chief Justice of the High Court, or in his absence, the > senior-most > > > > > judge of > > > > > the High Court available, in an oath or affirmation in the > following > > > > > form > > > > > that is to sayed "I, A. B., do swear in the name of God that I > will > > > > > faithfully discharge the functions of the Sadar-I-Riyasat of Jammu > > > > > and > > > > > Kashmir and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect and > > > > > defend the > > > > > Constitution and the law and that I will devote myself to the > > > > > service and > > > > > well being of the people of State." > > > > > > > > > > 32. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be removed from his office by the > > > > > President if > > > > > an address by the Legis-lative Assembly supported by a majority of > > > > > not less > > > > > than two-thirds of its total membership is presented to the > > > > > president > > > > > praying for such removal on the ground of violation of the > > > > > Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > 33. When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by > > > > > reason of > > > > > his death, resignation or removal or when the Sadar-i-Riyasat is > > > > > unable to > > > > > discharge his functions owing to absence, illness or or any other > > > > > cause, the > > > > > functions of the office shall, until the assumption of office by a > > > > > newly > > > > > elected Sadar-i-Riyasat or the resumption of duties by the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > > as the case may be, dis-charged by such person as the President > may > > > > > on the > > > > > recommendation of the Council of Ministers of the State, recognise > > > > > as the > > > > > acting Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > 34. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall have the power to grant pardons, > > > > > reprieves, > > > > > respites or remissions of punish-ment or to suspend, remit or > > > > > commute the > > > > > sentence of any person convicted of any offense against any law > > > > > relating to > > > > > a matter to which the executive power of the State extends. > > > > > > > > > > *THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS* > > > > > > > > > > 35. (1) There shall be a council of Ministers with the Prime > > > > > Minister at the > > > > > head to aid and advise the Sadar-i-Riyasat in the exercise of his > > > > > functions. > > > > > > > > > > All functions of the Sadar-i-Riyasat except those under sections > 36, > > > > > 38 and > > > > > 92 shall be exercised by him only on the advice of the Council of > > > > > Ministers. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The question whether any, and if so what, advice was tendered > by > > > > > Ministers to the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be inquired into in any > > > > > court. > > > > > > > > > > 36. The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat > and > > > > > the > > > > > other Ministers shall be appointed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the > > > > > advice of > > > > > The Prime Minister. > > > > > > > > > > 37. (1) The Council of Ministers shall be collectively responsible > > > > > to the > > > > > Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > (2) A Minister who for any period of six conse-cutive months is > not > > > > > a member > > > > > of either House of Legislature shall upon the expiry of that > period > > > > > cease to > > > > > be a Minister. > > > > > > > > > > 38. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may on the advice of the Prime Minister > > > > > appoint from > > > > > amongst the members of either House of Legislature such number of > > > > > Deputy > > > > > Ministers as may be necessary. > > > > > > > > > > 39. The Ministers and the [Deputy Ministers shall hold office > during > > > > > the > > > > > pleasure of the Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > 40. Before a Minister or a Deputy Minister enters upon lids > office, > > > > > the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or, in his absence, any person authorised by him, > > > > > shall > > > > > administer to the Minister or the Deputy Minister to oaths of > office > > > > > and of > > > > > secrecy according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > 41. The salaries and allowances of Ministers and Deputy Ministers > > > > > shall be > > > > > such as the Legislature relay from time to time by law determine > > > > > and, until > > > > > so determined, shall be such as are payable respectively to the > > > > > Ministers > > > > > and the Deputy Ministers under the Jammu and Kashmir Minister s > > > > > Salaries > > > > > Act, 1956 (Act VI of 1956) the Jammu and Kashmir Minister's > > > > > Travelling > > > > > Allowances Rules for the time being in force, and the Jaminu and > > > > > Kashmir > > > > > Deputy Ministers Salaries and Allowances Act. S. 2010 (Act VIII of > > > > > S.2010) > > > > > > > > > > *THE ADVOCATE GENERAL* > > > > > > > > > > 42. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall appoint a person who is > qualified > > > > > to be > > > > > appointed a Judge of the High Court, to be Advocate General for > the > > > > > State. > > > > > > > > > > (2) It shall be the duty of the Advocate General to give advice to > > > > > the > > > > > Government upon such legal matters and to perform such other > duties > > > > > of a > > > > > legal character, as may from time to time be referred or assigned > to > > > > > him by > > > > > the Govern-ment, and to discharge the functions conferred on him > by > > > > > or under > > > > > this Constitution or any other law for the time being in force. > > > > > > > > > > (3) In the performance of his duties, the Advocate General shall > > > > > have the > > > > > right of audience in all courts in the State. > > > > > > > > > > (4) The Advocate General shall hold office during the pleasure of > > > > > the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and receive such remuneration as the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > may > > > > > determine. > > > > > > > > > > *CONDUCT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS* > > > > > > > > > > 43. The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall make rules for the more > > > > > convenient transaction of the business of the > > > > > Government of the State and for the allocation > > > > > among Ministers of the said business. > > > > > > > > > > 44. It shall be the duty of the Prime Minister > > > > > > > > > > (a) to communicate to the Sadar-i-Riyasat all decisions of the > > > > > council of > > > > > Ministers relating to the administration of the affairs of the > State > > > > > and > > > > > proposals for legislation; > > > > > > > > > > (b) to furnish such information relating to the administration of > > > > > the > > > > > affairs of the State and proposals for legislation as the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > may call for; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) if the Sadar-i-Riyasat so rqeuires to submit for the > > > > > consideration of > > > > > the Council of Ministers any matter on which a decision has been > > > > > taken by a > > > > > Minister but which has not been considered by the Council. > > > > > > > > > > 45. (1) All executive action of the Government shall be expressed > to > > > > > be > > > > > taken in the name of the Sadar-i-Riyasat of the Jammu and Kashmir. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Orders and other instruments made and executed in the name of > > > > > the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or of the Government of Jammu and Kashmir shall be > > > > > authenticated in such manner as may be specified in the rules to > be > > > > > made be > > > > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and the validity of an order or instrument > > > > > which is so > > > > > authenticated shall not be called in question on the ground that > it > > > > > is not > > > > > an order or instrument made or executed by the Sadar-i-Riyasat or > as > > > > > the > > > > > case may be, by the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.** > > > > > > > > > > *PART VI* > > > > > *THE STATE LEGISLATIVE*** > > > > > > > > > > *COMPOSITION OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > > > > > > > 46. There shall be Legislature for the State which shall consist > of > > > > > the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat and two Houses be known respectively as the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly and the Legislative Council. > > > > > > > > > > 47. (1) The Legislative Assembly shall consist of one hundred > > > > > members chosen > > > > > by direct election from territorial constituencies in the State; > > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, if he is of opinion that > > > > > women are > > > > > not adequately represented in the Assembly nominate not more than > > > > > two women > > > > > to be members thereof. > > > > > > > > > > (2) For the purposes of sub-section (I), the State shall be > divided > > > > > into > > > > > territorial constituencies in such a manner that the ratio between > > > > > the > > > > > population of each constituency and the number of seats allotted > to > > > > > it > > > > > shall, so far as practicable, be the same throughout the State. > > > > > Explanation: > > > > > In this sub-section, the express-ion "Population' means the > > > > > population as > > > > > ascertained at the last preceding census of which the relevant > > > > > figures have > > > > > been published. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Upon the completion of each census, the number, extent and > > > > > boundaries of > > > > > the territor-ial constituencies shall be readjusted by such > > > > > authority and in > > > > > such manner as the Legislature may be law determine: > > > > > Provided that such readjustment shall not affect representation in > > > > > the > > > > > Legislative Assemb until the disolution of the then exist-ing > > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > 48. Notwithstanding anything contained in section 47, until the > area > > > > > of the > > > > > State under the occuptions of Pakistan ceases to so occupied and > the > > > > > people > > > > > residing in that area elect their representatives > > > > > > > > > > (a) twenty-five seats in the Legislative Assembly shall remain > > > > > vacant and > > > > > shall not be taken into account for reckoning the total > member-ship > > > > > of the > > > > > Assembly; and the said area shall be excluded in delimiting the > > > > > territorial > > > > > Constituencies Under Section 47. > > > > > > > > > > 49. (I) There shall be reserved in the Lagislative Assembly for > the > > > > > Scheduled Castes in the State a number of seats which shall bear, > as > > > > > nearly > > > > > as may be, the same proportion to the total number of seats in the > > > > > Assembly > > > > > as the popu-lation of the Scheduled Castes bears to the population > > > > > of the > > > > > State. > > > > > > > > > > Explanation: In this sub-section: > > > > > > > > > > (a) "population" has the same meaning as in sub-section (2) of > > > > > section 47; > > > > > and > > > > > (b) "Scheduled Castes" means the caste, races or tribes or part > of, > > > > > or > > > > > groups within castes, races or tribes which are for the purposes > of > > > > > the > > > > > Constitution of India deemed to be Scheduled Casts in relation to > > > > > the State > > > > > under the pro-visions of article 341 of that Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sub-section (1) shall cease to have effect > on > > > > > the > > > > > expiration of a period of five years from the commencement of this > > > > > Constitution: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that such cesser shall not affect any representation in > the > > > > > Legislative Assembly until the dissolution of the then existing > > > > > Assembly: > > > > > > > > > > 50. (1) The Legislative Council shall consist of thirty six > members, > > > > > chosen > > > > > in the manner provided in this section. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Eleven members shall be elected by the men hers of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of > > > > > Kashmir > > > > > and are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Eleven members shall be elected by the mem-bers of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly from amongst persons who are residents of the Province of > > > > > Jammu and > > > > > are not members of the Legislative Assembly. > > > > > Provided that of the members so elected, at least one shall be a > > > > > resident of > > > > > Doda District and at least one shall be a resident of Poonch > > > > > District. > > > > > > > > > > (4) One member shall be elected by each of the following > > > > > electorates, namely > > > > > > > > > > (a) the members of municipal council, town area committees and > > > > > notified area > > > > > com-mittees in the Province of Kashmir; > > > > > > > > > > (b) the members of municipal council, town area committees, and > > > > > notified > > > > > area committees in the Province of Jammu; > > > > > > > > > > (c) permanent residents who have been for at least three years > > > > > engaged in > > > > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government > in > > > > > the > > > > > Province of Kashmir; and > > > > > > > > > > (d) permanent residents who have been for at least three years > > > > > engaged in > > > > > teaching in educational institutions recognised by the Government > in > > > > > the > > > > > Province of Jammu. > > > > > > > > > > (5) Two members shall be elected by each of the following > > > > > electorates, > > > > > namely: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in > the > > > > > Province of Kashmir as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify; > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (b) the members of the Panchayats and such other local bodies in > the > > > > > Province of Jammu as the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by order specify. > > > > > > > > > > (6) Six members shall be nominated by the Sadar-i-Riyasat, not > more > > > > > than > > > > > three of whom shall be person belonging to any of the socially or > > > > > economically backward classes in the State, and the others shall > be > > > > > persons > > > > > having special knowledge or practical experi-ence in respect of > > > > > matters such > > > > > as literature, science, art, co-operative movement and social > > > > > service. > > > > > > > > > > (7) Elections under sub-section (2) and (3) shall be held in > > > > > accordance with > > > > > the system of pro-portional representation by means of the single > > > > > transferable vote. > > > > > > > > > > *GENERAL PROVISIONS* > > > > > > > > > > 51. A person shall not be qualified to be chosen to fill a seat in > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature unless he: > > > > > > > > > > (a) is a permanent resident of the State; > > > > > > > > > > (b) is, in the case of a seat in the Legislative Assembly, not > less > > > > > than > > > > > twenty-five years of age, and in the case of a seat in the > > > > > Legisla-tive > > > > > Council, not less than thirty years of age; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) possesses such other qualifications as may be prescribed in > that > > > > > behalf > > > > > by or under any law made by Legislature. > > > > > > > > > > 52. (1) The Legislative Assembly, unless sooner dis-solved, shall > > > > > continue > > > > > for five years from the date appointed for its first meeting and > not > > > > > longer, > > > > > and the expiration of the said period of five years shall operate > as > > > > > a > > > > > dissolution of the Assembly; > > > > > Provided that the said period may, while a Proclamation of > Emergency > > > > > issued > > > > > under arti-cle 352 of the Constitution of India is in operation, > be > > > > > extended > > > > > by the State Legislature by law for a period not exceeding one > year > > > > > at a > > > > > time and not extending in any case beyond a period of six months > > > > > after the > > > > > Proclamation has ceased to operate. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Legislative Council shall not be subject to dissolution > but > > > > > as > > > > > nearly as possible one-third of the members thereof shall retire, > as > > > > > soon as > > > > > may be, on the expiration of every second year in accordance with > > > > > the > > > > > provisions made in that behalf by Legislature by law. > > > > > > > > > > 53. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall from time to time summon each > > > > > House of the > > > > > Legislature to meet at such time and place as he thinks fit, but > six > > > > > months > > > > > shall not intervene between its last sitting in one session and > the > > > > > date > > > > > appointed for its first sitting in the next session. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may from time to time... > > > > > > > > > > (a) prorogue the House or either house (b) dissolve the > Legislative > > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > 54. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may address either House of > Legislature, > > > > > or both > > > > > Houses assembled together, and may for that purpose require the > > > > > attendance > > > > > of members. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat may send messages to either House, whether > > > > > with > > > > > respect to a Bill then bending in the Legislature, or otherwise > and > > > > > a House > > > > > to which any message is so sent shall with all convenient dispatch > > > > > consider > > > > > any matter required by the message to be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > > > 55. (1) At the commencement of the first session after each > general > > > > > election > > > > > to the Legislative Assembly and at the commencement of the first > > > > > session of > > > > > each year, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall address both Houses of > > > > > Legislature > > > > > assembled together and inform the Legislature of the cause of its > > > > > summons. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Provision shall be made by the rules regulating the procedure > of > > > > > either > > > > > House for the allot-ment of time for discussion of the matters > > > > > reffered to > > > > > in such address. > > > > > > > > > > 56. Every Minister and the Advocate General shall have the right > to > > > > > speak > > > > > in, and otherwise to take part in the proceedings, of both Houses > > > > > and to > > > > > speak in, and otherwise to to take part in the proceedings of, any > > > > > Committee-of the Legislature of which he may be named a member, > but > > > > > shall > > > > > not, by virtue of this section, be entitled to vote. > > > > > > > > > > *OFFICERS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE* > > > > > > > > > > 57. The Legislative Assembly shall, as soon as may be, choose two > > > > > members of > > > > > the Assembly to be res-pectively Speaker and Deputy Speaker > thereof > > > > > and, so > > > > > often at office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant, the > > > > > Assembly > > > > > shall choose another member to be Speaker, or Deputy Speaker, as > the > > > > > case > > > > > may be. > > > > > > > > > > 58. A member holding office as Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly: > > > > > > > > > > (a) shall vacate his office if he ceases to be a member of the > > > > > Assembly; > > > > > > > > > > (b) may at any time by writing under his hand addressed, if such > > > > > member is > > > > > the Speaker, to the Deputy Speaker, and if such member is the > Deputy > > > > > Speaker, to the Speaker, resign his office; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) may be removed from his office by a resolu-tion of the > Assembly > > > > > passed > > > > > by a majority of all the then members of the Assembly; > > > > > > > > > > Provided that no resolution for the purpose of clause (c) shall be > > > > > moved > > > > > unless at least fourteen days notice has been given of the > intention > > > > > to move > > > > > the resolution. > > > > > > > > > > Provided further that, whenever the Assembly is dissolved, the > > > > > Speaker that > > > > > not vacate his office until immediately before the first meeting > of > > > > > the > > > > > Assembly after the dissolution. > > > > > > > > > > 59. (1) While the office of Speaker is vacant the duties of the > > > > > office shall > > > > > be performed by the Deputy Speaker or, if the office of the Deputy > > > > > Speaker > > > > > is also vacant, by such member of the Assembly as the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > > > > appoint for the purpose. > > > > > > > > > > (2) During the absence of the Speaker from any sitting of the > > > > > Assembly the > > > > > Deputy speaker or, if he is also absent, such person as may be > > > > > determined by > > > > > the rules of procedure of the Assembly, or, if no such person is > > > > > present, > > > > > such other person as may be determined by the Assembly, shall act > as > > > > > Speaker. > > > > > > > > > > 60. (1) At any sitting of the Legislative Assembly, while any > > > > > resolution for > > > > > the removal of the Speaker from his office is under consideration, > > > > > the > > > > > Speaker, or while any resolution for the removal of the Deputy > > > > > Speaker from > > > > > his office is under consideration, the Deputy Speaker shall not, > > > > > though he > > > > > is present, preside and the provisions of sub-section (2) of > section > > > > > 59 > > > > > shall apply inrelation to every such sitting as they apply in > > > > > relation to a > > > > > sitting from which the Speaker or, as the case may be, the Deputy > > > > > Speaker is > > > > > absent. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Speaker shall have the right to speak in, and otherwise to > > > > > take part > > > > > in the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly while any > resolu-tion > > > > > for his > > > > > removal from office is under con-sideration in the Assembly and > > > > > shall, > > > > > notwith-standing anything in section 67, be entitled to vote only > in > > > > > the > > > > > first instance on such resolu-tion or on any other matter during > > > > > such > > > > > pro-ceedings but not in the case of an equality of votes. > > > > > > > > > > 61. (1) The Legislative Council shall, as soon as may be, choose > two > > > > > members > > > > > of the Council to be respectively Chairman and Deputy Chairman > > > > > thereof and, > > > > > so often as the office of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman becomes > > > > > vacant, > > > > > the Council shall choose another member to be Chairman or Deputy > > > > > Chairman, > > > > > as the case may be. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 58,59 and 60 shall apply in > relation > > > > > to the > > > > > Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Legislative Council with the > > > > > substitution of the words "Chairman" and "Council" for the words > > > > > "Speaker" > > > > > and "Assembly" respectively wherever they occur in those > provisions, > > > > > and > > > > > with the omission of the further proviso to section 58. > > > > > > > > > > 62. There shall be pay to the speaker and the the Deputy Speaker > of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislative Assembly and to the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman > of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislative Council, such salaries and allowances as may be > > > > > respectively > > > > > fixed by Legislature by law and, until provi-sion in that behalf > is > > > > > so made, > > > > > such salaries and allowances as are specified in the Third > Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > 63. (1) Each House of the Legislature shall have a separate > > > > > secretarial > > > > > Staff: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall be construed as > > > > > preventing > > > > > the creation of posts common to both Houses. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Legislature may by law regulate the re-cruitment, and the > > > > > conditions > > > > > of service of persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of each > > > > > House. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Until provision is made by the Legislature under sub-section > > > > > (2), the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may, after consultation with the Speaker of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly or the Chairman of the Legislative Council, as the case > may > > > > > be, > > > > > make rules regulating the recruitment, and the con-ditions of > > > > > service of > > > > > persons appointed, to the secretarial staff of the Assembly or the > > > > > Council, > > > > > and any rules so made shall have effect subject to the provisions > of > > > > > any law > > > > > made under the said sub-section. > > > > > > > > > > *CONDUCT OF BUSINESS* > > > > > > > > > > 64. Every member of the Legislative Assembly or the Legislative > > > > > Council > > > > > shall before taking his seat, make and sub-scribe before the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > or some person appointed in that behalf by him an oath or > > > > > affirmation > > > > > according to the form set out for the purpose in the Fifth > Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > 65. Save as otherwise provided by the rules of proce-dure of the > > > > > House, the > > > > > quorum to constitute a meeting of the Legislative Assembly and of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislative Council shall be twenty and ten re-spectively. > > > > > > > > > > 66. A House of the Legislature shall have power to act > > > > > notwithstanding any > > > > > vacancy in the membership thereof, and any proceedings in the > > > > > Legislature > > > > > shall be valid notwithstanding that it is discovered subsequently > > > > > that some > > > > > person who was not entitl-ed so to do sat or voted or otherwise > took > > > > > part in > > > > > the proceedings. > > > > > > > > > > 67. (1) Save as otherwise provided in this Constitu-tion, all > > > > > questions at > > > > > any sitting of a House of the Legislature shall be determined by a > > > > > majority > > > > > of votes of the members present and voting, other than the Speaker > > > > > or > > > > > Chairman, or person acting as such. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Speaker or Chairman, or person acting as such, shall not > > > > > vote in the > > > > > first instance, but shall have and exercise a casting vote in the > > > > > case of an > > > > > equality of votes. > > > > > > > > > > *DISQUALIFICATIONS OF MEMBERS*** > > > > > > > > > > 68. (1) No person shall be a member of both Houses of the > > > > > Legislature and > > > > > provision shall be made by Legislature by law for the vacation by > a > > > > > person > > > > > who is chooser a member of both Houses of his seat in one House or > > > > > the > > > > > other. > > > > > > > > > > (2) If a member of a House of the Legislature resigns his seat by > > > > > writing > > > > > under his hand addressed to tile Speaker or the Chairman, as the > > > > > case may > > > > > be, his s at shall thereupon become vacant. > > > > > > > > > > (3) If for a period of sixty days a member of a House of the > > > > > Legislature is > > > > > without permission of the House absent from all meetings thereof, > > > > > the House > > > > > may declare his seat vacant: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that in computing the said period of sixty days no > account > > > > > shall be > > > > > taken of: > > > > > > > > > > (a) such absence caused by reason beyond his control; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) any period during which the House is prorogued or is adjourned > > > > > for more > > > > > than four consecutive days. > > > > > > > > > > 69. (1) A person shall be disqualified for being chosen and for > > > > > being a > > > > > member of the Legislative Assembly or Legislative Council: > > > > > > > > > > (a) if he holds any office of profit under the Government of > India > > > > > or the > > > > > State Govern-ment within the Union of India, other than an office > > > > > declared > > > > > by Legislature by law not to dis-qualify its holder; > > > > > > > > > > (b) if he is of unsound mind and stands so declared by a competent > > > > > court; > > > > > > > > > > (c) if he is an undischarged insolvent; > > > > > > > > > > (d) if he is not a permanent resident of the State or has > > > > > voluntarily > > > > > acquired the citizenship of a foreign State, or is under any > > > > > acknowledgement > > > > > of allegiance to adherence to a foreign State; > > > > > > > > > > (e) if he is so disqualified by or under any law made by the > > > > > Legislature. > > > > > > > > > > (2) For the purposes of this section, a person shall not be deemed > > > > > to hold > > > > > an office of profit under the Government of India, the State > > > > > Government or > > > > > any other State Government vithin the Union of India, by reason > only > > > > > that he > > > > > is a Minister, or a Deputy Minister. > > > > > > > > > > 70. (1) If it is represented to the Speaker or the Chairman that > a > > > > > member > > > > > of the Legislative Assembly or, as the case may be, of the > > > > > Legis-lative > > > > > Council is disqualified for being such a member under the > provisions > > > > > of > > > > > section 69, or > > > > > was so disqualified at any time since being chosen as a member and > > > > > the > > > > > member does not admit that he is or was so disqualified, the > > > > > question shall > > > > > be referred to the High Court decision and its decision shall be > > > > > final: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that w here the disqualification in question arises from > > > > > circumstances which subsisted at the time of his being chosen as > > > > > such > > > > > member, no such representation as aforesaid shall be entertained: > > > > > > > > > > (a) unless it is made after the expiration of the period by law > for > > > > > presenting an elec-tion petition calling in question the election > of > > > > > the > > > > > member; and > > > > > > > > > > (b) if such an election petition is pending or has been tried, > > > > > unless the > > > > > Speaker or Chairman as the case may be is satisfied that the > > > > > question of the > > > > > members' disquali-fication by reason of those circumstances has > not > > > > > been > > > > > raised or, as the case may be, was not raised, in the proceedings > on > > > > > the > > > > > election petition. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Where on a representation made under sub-section (I) the > member > > > > > admits > > > > > that he is or w. s disqualified under the provisions of section > 69, > > > > > or where > > > > > on a reference made under that sub-section the High Court decides > > > > > that the > > > > > member is or was so disqualified, his seat shall thereupon become > > > > > vacant. > > > > > > > > > > 71. If a person sits or votes as a member of the Legislative > > > > > Assembly or the > > > > > Legislative Council before he has complied with the requirements > of > > > > > section > > > > > 54 or when he knows that he is not quali-fied or that he is > > > > > disqualified for > > > > > membership thereof or that he is prohibited from so doing by the > > > > > provisions > > > > > of any law made by the Legislature, he shall be liable in respect > of > > > > > each > > > > > day on which he so sits or votes to a penalty of one hundred > rupees > > > > > to be > > > > > recovered as a debt due to the State. > > > > > > > > > > *POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND > ITS > > > > > MEMBERS* > > > > > > > > > > 72. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the > > > > > rules and > > > > > standing orders regulating the procedure of the Legislature, there > > > > > shall be > > > > > freedom of speech in the Legislature. > > > > > > > > > > (2) No member of the Legislature shall be liable to any > proceedings > > > > > in any > > > > > court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in the > > > > > Legislature or any committee thereof and no person shall be so > > > > > liable in > > > > > respect of the publication by or under the authority of a House of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature of any report, paper, votes, or proceedings. > > > > > > > > > > (3) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of a > > > > > House of > > > > > the Legislature and- of the members and the committees of a House > of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature shall be such as may from time to time be defined by > > > > > Legislature > > > > > by law, and until so defined shall be those of the Parliament of > > > > > India and > > > > > of its members and committees. > > > > > > > > > > (4) The provisions of sub-sections (1), (2) and (3) shall apply in > > > > > relation > > > > > to persons who by virtue of this Constitution have the right t o > > > > > speak, in > > > > > and otherwise to take part in the proceedings of, a House of the > > > > > Legislature > > > > > or any committee thereof as they apply in relation to members of > > > > > that > > > > > Legislature. > > > > > > > > > > 73. Members of the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative > Council > > > > > shall be > > > > > entitled to receive such salaries and allowances as may from time > to > > > > > time be > > > > > determined by Legislature by law and, until provision in that > > > > > respect is so > > > > > made, salaries and allowances at such rates and upon such > conditions > > > > > as were > > > > > immediately before the commencement of this Constitution > applicable > > > > > in the > > > > > case of members of the Constituent Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > *LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURE* > > > > > > > > > > 74. (1) Subject to the provisions of sections 76 and 84 with > respect > > > > > to > > > > > Money Bills and other Finan-cial Bills, a Bill may originate in > > > > > either House > > > > > of the Legislature. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Subject to the provisions of sections 75 and 76 a Bill shall > not > > > > > be > > > > > deemed to have been passed by the Legislature unless it has been > > > > > agreed to > > > > > by both Houses, either without amendment or with such amendments > > > > > only as are > > > > > agreed to by both Houses. > > > > > > > > > > (3) A Bill pending in the Legislature shall not lapse by reason of > > > > > the > > > > > prorogation of the House or House thereof. > > > > > > > > > > (4) A Bill pending in the Legislative Council which has not been > > > > > passed by > > > > > the Legislative Assembly shall not lapse on a dissolution of the > > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > (5) A Bill which is pending in the Legislative Assembly or which > > > > > having been > > > > > passed by the Legislative Assembly, is pending in the Legi-slative > > > > > Council, > > > > > shall lapse on a dissolution of the Assembly > > > > > > > > > > 75. (1) If after a Bill has been passed by the Legisla-tive > Assembly > > > > > and > > > > > transmitted to the Legisla-tive Council: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) more than three months elapse from the date on which the Bill > is > > > > > laid > > > > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > > > > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > > > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; the Legisl-ative Assembly > may, > > > > > subject > > > > > to the rules regulating its procedure, pass the Bill again in the > > > > > same or in > > > > > any subse-quent session with or without such amendments, if any, > as > > > > > have > > > > > been made suggested or agreed to by the Legislative Council and > then > > > > > transmit the Bill as so passed to the Legislative Council. > > > > > > > > > > (2) If after a Bill has been so palmed for the se-cond time by the > > > > > legislative Assembly and transmitted to the Legislative Council: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the Bill is rejected by the Council; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) more shall one month elapses from the date on which the Bill > is > > > > > laid > > > > > before the Council without the Bill being passed by it; or > > > > > > > > > > (c) the Bill is passed by the Council with amendments to which the > > > > > Legislative Assembly does not agree; > > > > > > > > > > the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Houses of the > > > > > Legislature in the form in which it passed by the Legislative > > > > > Assembly for > > > > > the second time with such amendments, if any, as have been made or > > > > > suggested > > > > > by the Legislative Council and agreed to by the Legislative > > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Nothing in this section shall apply to a Money Bill. > > > > > > > > > > 76. (1) A Money Bill shall not be introduced in the Legislative > > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > > > (2) After a Money Bill has been passed by the Legislative > Assembly, > > > > > it shall > > > > > be transmitted to the Legislative Council for its recommenda-tions > > > > > and the > > > > > Legislative Council shall within a period of fourteen days from > the > > > > > date of > > > > > its receipt of the Bill return the Bill to the Legis-lative > Assembly > > > > > with > > > > > its recommendations, and the Legislative Assemble may there upon > > > > > either > > > > > accept or reject all or any of the recom-mendations of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > > > (3) If the Legislative Assembly accepts any of the recommendations > > > > > of the > > > > > Legislative Council, the Money Bil] shall deemed to have been > passed > > > > > by both > > > > > Houses with the amend-ments recommended by the Legislative > Coun-cil > > > > > and > > > > > accepted by the Legislative Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > (4) If the Legislative Assembly does not accept any of the > > > > > recommendations > > > > > of the Legislative Council, the Money Bill shall be deemed to have > > > > > been > > > > > passed by both Houses in the form which it was passed by the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly without any of the amendments recommended by the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Council. > > > > > > > > > > 5. If a Money Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly and > > > > > transmitted to the > > > > > Legislative Council for its recommendations is not returned to the > > > > > Legislative Assembly within the said period of fourteen days, it > > > > > shall be > > > > > deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the > > > > > said > > > > > period in the form in which it was passed by the Legislative > > > > > Assembly. > > > > > > > > > > 77. (1) For the purposes of the part, a Bill shall be deemed to be > a > > > > > Money > > > > > Bill if it contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the > > > > > following > > > > > matters namely: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation > > > > > of any > > > > > tax; > > > > > > > > > > (b) the regulation of the borrowing of money or the giving of any > > > > > guarantee > > > > > by the State, or the amendment of the law with respect to any > > > > > financial > > > > > obligations under-taken or to be undertaken by the State; > > > > > > > > > > (c) the custody of the Consolidated Fund or the Contingency Fund > of > > > > > the > > > > > State, the payment of money into or the with-drawal of moneys from > > > > > any such > > > > > Fund: > > > > > > > > > > (d) the appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of > the > > > > > State; > > > > > > > > > > (e) the declaring of any expenditure to be expenditure charges on > > > > > the > > > > > consolidated Fund of the State, or the increasing of the amount of > > > > > any such > > > > > expenditure; > > > > > > > > > > (f) the receipt of money on account of the Consolidated Fund of > the > > > > > State or > > > > > the public account of the State or the custody or issue of such > > > > > money; or > > > > > any matter incidental to any of the matters specified in clauses > (a) > > > > > to (f). > > > > > > > > > > (2) A Bill shall not be deemed to be a Money Bill by reason only > > > > > that it > > > > > provides for the imposition of fines or other pecuniary penalties > or > > > > > for the > > > > > demand or payment of fees for lice-nces or fees for services > > > > > rendered, or by > > > > > reason that it provides for the imposition, abolition, remission, > > > > > alteration > > > > > or regulation of any tax by any local authority or body for local > > > > > purposes. > > > > > > > > > > (3) If any question arises whether a Bill introduced in the > > > > > Legislature is a > > > > > Money Bill or not, the decision of the Speaker of the Legislative > > > > > Assembly > > > > > thereon shall be final. > > > > > > > > > > (4) There shall be endorsed an every Money Bill when it is > > > > > transmitted to > > > > > the Legislative Council under section 76 and when it is pre-sented > > > > > to the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for assent under section 78, the certificate of > the > > > > > Speaker > > > > > of the Legislative Assembly signed by him that it is a Money Bill. > > > > > > > > > > 78. When a Bill has been passed by both Houses of the Legislature, > > > > > it shall > > > > > be presented to the Sadar--i-Riyasat and the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall > > > > > declare > > > > > either that he assents to the Bill or that he with-holds assent > > > > > therefrom. > > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may, as soon as possible after > the > > > > > presentation to him of the Bill for assent, return the Bill if it > is > > > > > not a > > > > > Money Bill together with a message requesting that the Houses will > > > > > reconsider the Bill or any specified provisions thereof and, in > > > > > particular, > > > > > will consider the desira-bility of introducing any such amendments > > > > > as he may > > > > > recommend in his message and, when a Bill is so returned, the > Houses > > > > > shall > > > > > reconsider the Bill accordingly, and if the Bill is passed again > by > > > > > the > > > > > Houses with or without amendment and presented to the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat for > > > > > assent, the Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not withhold assent therefrom. > > > > > > > > > > *PROCEDURE IN FINANCIAL MATTERS* > > > > > > > > > > 79. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall in respect of every financial > year > > > > > cause > > > > > to be laid before both Houses of the Legislature a statement of > the > > > > > estimated receipts and expenditure of the State for that year, in > > > > > this part > > > > > referred to as the "annual financial statement." (2) The estimates > > > > > of > > > > > expenditure embodied in the annual financial statement shall show > > > > > separately > > > > > > > > > > (a) the sums required to meet expenditure described by this > > > > > constitution as > > > > > expendi-ture charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the State; and > > > > > > > > > > (b) the sums required to meet other expendi-ture proposed to be > made > > > > > from > > > > > the con-solidated Fund of the State; and shall distinguish > > > > > expenditure on > > > > > revenue account from other expenditure. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The following expenditure shall be expenditure charged on the > > > > > consolidated fund of the State: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the emoluments and allowances of the Sadar-i-Riyasat and other > > > > > expenditure relating to his office; > > > > > > > > > > (b) the salaries and allowances of the Speaker and the Deputy > > > > > Speaker of the > > > > > Legislative Assembly and of the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman > of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislative Council; > > > > > > > > > > (c) debt charges for which the State is liable including interest, > > > > > sinking > > > > > fund charges and redemption charges. and other expenditure > relating > > > > > to the > > > > > raising of loans and the service and redemption of debt; > > > > > > > > > > (d) expenditure in respect of the salaries and allowances of the > > > > > Judges of > > > > > the High Court; > > > > > > > > > > (e) any sums required to satisfy any judge-ment decree or award of > > > > > any Court > > > > > or arbitral tribunal; > > > > > > > > > > (f) any other expenditure declared by this Constitution, or by > > > > > Legislature > > > > > by law, to be so charged. > > > > > > > > > > 80. (1,) So much of the estimates as relates to expen-diture > changed > > > > > upon > > > > > the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be submitted to the > > > > > vote of the > > > > > Legislative Assembly, but nothing in this sub-section shall be > > > > > construed as > > > > > preven-ting the discussion in the Legislature of any those > > > > > estimates. > > > > > > > > > > (2) So much of the said estimates as relates to other expenditure > > > > > shall be > > > > > submitted in the form of demands for grants to the Legislative > > > > > Assembly, and > > > > > the Legislative Assembly shall have power to assent, or to refuse > to > > > > > assent, > > > > > to any demand, or to assent to any demand subject to a reduction > of > > > > > the > > > > > amount specified therein. > > > > > > > > > > (3) No demand for a grant shall be made except on the > recommendation > > > > > of the > > > > > Sadar-i--Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > (1) As soon as may be after the grants under section 80 have been > > > > > made by > > > > > the Assembly, there shall be introduced a Bill to provide for the > > > > > appropriation out of the Consolidated fund of the State of all > > > > > moneys > > > > > required to meet: > > > > > > > > > > (a) the grants so made by the Assembly; and (b) the expenditure > > > > > charged on > > > > > the Consoli-dated Fund of the State but not exceed-ing in any case > > > > > the > > > > > amount shown in the statement previously laid before the Houses. > > > > > > > > > > (23 No amendment shall be proposed to any such Bill in either > House > > > > > of the > > > > > Legislature which will have the effect of varying the amount or > > > > > altering the > > > > > destination of any grant to made or of varying the amount of any > > > > > expenditure > > > > > charged on the Consolidated Fund of the State, and the decision of > > > > > the > > > > > person presiding as to whether an amendment is inadmissible under > > > > > the > > > > > sub-section shall be final. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Subject to the provisions of sections 89 and 83, no money > shall > > > > > be > > > > > withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund of the State except under > > > > > appropriation > > > > > made by law passed in accor-dance with the provisions of this > > > > > section > > > > > > > > > > 12. (1) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall: > > > > > > > > > > (a) if the amount authorised by any law made in accordance with > > > > > provisions > > > > > of section 81 to be expended for a particular service for the > > > > > current > > > > > financial year is found to be insufficient for the purposes of > that > > > > > year or > > > > > when a need has arisen during the current financial year for > > > > > supplemen-tary > > > > > or additional expenditure upon some new service not contemplated > in > > > > > the > > > > > annual financial statement for that year; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) if any money has been spent on any ser-vice during a financial > > > > > year in > > > > > excess of the amount granted for the service and for that year, > > > > > cause to be > > > > > laid before the Houses of the Legislature another statement > showing > > > > > the > > > > > estimated amount of that expenditure or cause to be presented to > the > > > > > Legis-lative Assembly a demand for such excess, as the case may > be. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 79, 80 and 81 shall have effect in > > > > > relation > > > > > to any such statement and expenditure or demand and also to any > law > > > > > to be > > > > > made authorising the appropriation of moneys out of the > Consolidated > > > > > Fund of > > > > > the State to meet such expenditure or the grant in respect of such > > > > > demand as > > > > > they have effect in relation to the annual financial state-ment > and > > > > > the > > > > > expenditure mentioned therein or to a demand for grant and the law > > > > > to be > > > > > 'made for the authorization of appropriation of moneys out of the > > > > > Consolidated Fund of the state to meet such expenditure or grant. > > > > > > > > > > 83. (1) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of > this > > > > > Part, > > > > > the Legislative Assem-bly shall have power: > > > > > > > > > > (a) to make any grant in advance in respect of the estimated > > > > > expenditure for > > > > > a part of any financial year pending the completion of the > procedure > > > > > prescribed in section 80 for the voting of such grant and the > > > > > pas-sing of > > > > > the law in accordance with the provisions of section 81 in > relation > > > > > to that > > > > > expenditure; > > > > > > > > > > (b) to make a grant for meeting an unexpec-ted demand upon the > > > > > resources of > > > > > the State when on account of the magnitude or the indefinite > > > > > character of > > > > > the services the demand cannot be stated with the details > ordinarily > > > > > given > > > > > in an annual financial statement; > > > > > > > > > > (c) to make an exceptional grant which forms no part of the > current > > > > > service > > > > > of any financial year; > > > > > and the Legislature shall have power to authorise by law the > > > > > withdrawal of > > > > > moneys from the Consolidated Fund of the State for the purposes > for > > > > > which > > > > > the said grants are made. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The provisions of sections 80 and 81 shall have effect in > > > > > relation to > > > > > the making of any grant under sub-section (1) and to law to be > made > > > > > under > > > > > that sub-section as they have effect in relation to the making of > a > > > > > grant > > > > > with regard to any expenditure mentioned h1 the annual financial > > > > > statement > > > > > and the law to be made for the authorization of appropriation of > > > > > moneys out > > > > > of the Consolidated Fund of the State to meet such expenditure. > > > > > > > > > > 84. (1) A bill or amendment making provision for any of the > matters > > > > > specified in clauses (a) to (f) of sub-section (1) of section 77 > > > > > shall not > > > > > be introduced or moved except on the recom-mendation of the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > > and a Bill making such provision shall not be introdu-ced in the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Council: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that no recommendation shall be required under this > > > > > sub-section for > > > > > the moving of an amendment making provision for the reduction or > > > > > abolition > > > > > of any tax. > > > > > > > > > > (2) A Bill or amendment shall not be deemed to make provision for > > > > > any of the > > > > > matters afore-said by reason only that it provides for the. > > > > > imposition of > > > > > fines or other pecuniary penal-ties, or for the demand or payment > of > > > > > fees > > > > > for licences or fees for services rendered, or by reason that it > > > > > provides > > > > > for the imposition, abolition, remission, alteration or regulation > > > > > of any > > > > > tax by any local authority or body for local purposes. > > > > > > > > > > (3) A Bill which, if enacted and brought into operation. would > > > > > involve > > > > > expenditure from the Consolidated Fund of the State shall not be > > > > > passed by a > > > > > House of the Legislature unless the Sadar-i-Riyasat has > recommended > > > > > to that > > > > > House the consideration of the Bill. > > > > > > > > > > *PROCEDURE GENERALLY* > > > > > > > > > > 85. (1) A House of the Legislature may make rules for regulating, > > > > > subject to > > > > > the provisions of this Constitution, its procedure and the > con-duct > > > > > of its > > > > > business. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Until rules are made under sub-section (1), the rules of > > > > > procedure and > > > > > standing orders in force immediately before the commencement of > this > > > > > > > > > > Constituent Assembly while discharging the functions of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Assembly shall have effect in relation to each House of the > > > > > Legislature > > > > > subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be made > therein > > > > > by the > > > > > Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the Chairman of the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Council, as the case may be. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The Sadar-i-Riyasat, after consultation with the Speaker of > the > > > > > Legislative Assembly and the Chairman of the Legislative Council, > > > > > may make- > > > > > rules as to the procedure with respect to communications between > the > > > > > two > > > > > Houses. > > > > > > > > > > 86. The Legislature may, for the purpose of the timely completion > of > > > > > financial business, regulate by law the procedure of, and the > > > > > conduct of > > > > > business in. the House of the Legislature in relation to any > > > > > financial > > > > > matter or to any Bill for the appropria-tion of moneys out of the > > > > > Consolidated Fund of the State, and, if and so far as any > provision > > > > > of any > > > > > law so made is inconsistent with any rule made by either House of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature under sub-section (I) of section 85 or with any rule > of > > > > > standing > > > > > order having effect in relation to either House of the Legislature > > > > > under > > > > > sub-section (2) of that section such provisions shall prevail. > > > > > > > > > > 87. Business in the Legislature shall be transacted in Urdu or in > > > > > English. > > > > > > > > > > (1) Provided that the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly or the > > > > > Chairman of > > > > > the Legislative Council or person acting as such, as the case may > > > > > be, may > > > > > permit any member to address the House in Hindi, or if he cannot > > > > > adequa-tely > > > > > express himself in any of the aforesaid languages, to address the > > > > > House in > > > > > his mother-tongue. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The official records of the proceedings in the Legislature > shall > > > > > be kept > > > > > in Urdu as well as in English. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The text of all Bills and amendments there of moved in and of > > > > > all Acts > > > > > passed by the Legis-lature which shall be treated as > authoritative, > > > > > shall be > > > > > in English. > > > > > > > > > > 88. No discussion shall take place in the Legislature with respect > > > > > to the > > > > > conduct of any Judge of the Supreme Court or of the High Court in > > > > > the > > > > > discharge of his duties. > > > > > > > > > > 89. (1) The validity of any proceedings in the Legis-lature shall > > > > > not be > > > > > called in question -on the gro-unds of any alleged irregularity of > > > > > procedure. > > > > > > > > > > (2) No officer or member of the Legislature in whom powers are > > > > > vested by > > > > > or under this Constitution for regulating procedure or the conduct > > > > > of > > > > > Business, or for maintaining order, in the Legislature shall be > > > > > subject to > > > > > the juris-diction of any court in respect of the exercise by him > of > > > > > those > > > > > powers. > > > > > > > > > > 90. No Act of the Legislature and no provision in any such Act > shall > > > > > be > > > > > invalid by reason only that some recommendation required by this > > > > > Constitution was not given, if assent to that Act was given by the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > Legislative power of the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > > > > > > > 91. (1) If at any time, except when both Houses of the Legislature > > > > > are in > > > > > session, the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that circumstances exist > > > > > which > > > > > render it necessary for him to take immediate action; he may > > > > > promulgate such > > > > > Ordinances as the circums-tances appear to him to require. > > > > > Provided that the power of making Ordinance under this Section > shall > > > > > extend > > > > > only to those matters with respect to which the Legislature has > > > > > power to > > > > > make laws. > > > > > > > > > > (2) An Ordinance promulgated under this section shall have the > same > > > > > force > > > > > and effect as an Act of the Legislature assented to by the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat, > > > > > but every such Ordinance: > > > > > > > > > > (a) shall be laid before both the Houses of the Legislature, and > > > > > shall cease > > > > > to operate at the expiration of six weeks from the re-assembly of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature, or if be-fore tile expiration of that period a > > > > > reso-lution > > > > > disapproving it is passed by the Legislative Assembly and agreed > to > > > > > by > > > > > Legislative Council, upon the resolution being agreed to by the > > > > > Legislative > > > > > Coun-cil, and - > > > > > > > > > > (b) may be withdrawn at any time by the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > Explanation: - Where the Houses of the Legislature are summoned > to > > > > > re-assemble on different dates the period of six weeks shall be > > > > > reckoned > > > > > from the latter of those dates for the purposes of this > sub-section. > > > > > > > > > > Breakdown of Constitutional Machinery. > > > > > > > > > > 92. (1) If at any time the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that a > > > > > situation has > > > > > arisen in which the Government of the State cannot be carried on > in > > > > > accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat may > > > > > by Proclamation: > > > > > > > > > > (a) assume to himself all or any of the func-tions of the > Government > > > > > of the > > > > > State and all or any of the powers vested in or excercisable by > > > > > anybody or > > > > > authority in the State; > > > > > > > > > > (b) make such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to > > > > > the > > > > > Sadar-i--Riyasat to be necessary or desirable for giving effect to > > > > > the > > > > > objects of the Procla-mation, including provisions for suspen-ding > > > > > in whole > > > > > or in part the operation of any provision of this Constitution > > > > > rela-ting to > > > > > any body or authority in the State: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that nothing in this section shall authorised die > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > to assume to himself any of the powers vested in or exer-cisable > by > > > > > the High > > > > > Court or to suspend in whole or in part the operation of any > > > > > provi-sion of > > > > > this Constitution relating to the High Court. > > > > > > > > > > (2) Any such Proclamation may be revoked or carried by a > subsequent > > > > > Proclamation. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Any such Proclamation whether varied under sub-section (2) or > > > > > not, > > > > > shall, except where it is a Proclamation revoking a previous > > > > > Proclama-tion, > > > > > cease to operate on the expiration of six months from the date on > > > > > which it > > > > > divas first Issued. > > > > > > > > > > (4) If the Sadar-i-Riyasat by a Proclamation under this section > > > > > assumes to > > > > > himself any of the powers of the legislature to make laws, any law > > > > > made by > > > > > him in the exercise of that power shall, subject to the terms > > > > > thereof, > > > > > continue to have effect until two years have elapsed from the date > > > > > on which > > > > > the Proclamation ceases to have effect, unless sooner repealed or > > > > > re-enacted > > > > > by an Act of the Legislature, and any reference in this > Constitution > > > > > to any > > > > > Acts of or laws made by the Legislature shall be construed as > > > > > including a > > > > > reference to such law. No Proclamation under sub-section (1) shall > > > > > be issued > > > > > except with the concurrence of the President of India. > > > > > > > > > > (6) Every Proclamation under this section shall, except where it > is > > > > > a > > > > > Proclamation revoking a previous Proclamation, be laid before each > > > > > house of > > > > > the Legisiature as soon as it is convened. > > > > > > > > > > *PART VII* > > > > > *THE HIGH COURT* > > > > > > > > > > 93. (1) There shall be a High Court for the State, consisting of a > > > > > Chief > > > > > Justice and two or more other judges. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The High Court exercising jurisdiction in relation to the > State > > > > > Immediately before the commencement of this Constitution shall be > > > > > the High > > > > > Court for the State. > > > > > > > > > > 94. The High Court shall be a court of record and shall have all > the > > > > > powers > > > > > of such a courts including the power to punish for contempt of > > > > > itself or of > > > > > the courts subordinate to it. > > > > > > > > > > 95. Every Judge of the High Court shall be appointed by the > > > > > President by > > > > > Warrant under his hand and seal after consultation with the Chief > > > > > Justice of > > > > > India, the Sadar-i-Riyasat, and in the case of appointment of a > > > > > Judge other > > > > > than the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice of the High Court and > > > > > shall hold > > > > > office until he attains the age of sixty years. > > > > > > > > > > 96. A person shall not be qualified for appointment as a Judge of > > > > > the High > > > > > Court unless he is a citizen of India, and: > > > > > > > > > > (a) has for at least ten years held a judicial office in the State > > > > > or in any > > > > > other part of India; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) has for at least ten years been an advocate of the State High > > > > > Court or > > > > > of any other High Court in India or of two or more such courts in > > > > > succession. > > > > > > > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this Section in omputing the > > > > > period > > > > > during which a person has been an advocate of a High Court. there > > > > > shall be > > > > > included any period during which the person has held judicial > office > > > > > after > > > > > he became an advocate. > > > > > > > > > > 97. Every person appointed to be a Judge of the High > > > > > Court, shall. before he enters upon his office, make an subscribe > > > > > before the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat or some person appointed in that behalf by him, an > > > > > oath or > > > > > affirmation according to the form set out for the purpose in the > > > > > Fifth > > > > > Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > 98. (1) There shall be paid to the Judges of the High > > > > > Court such salaries as are specified in the Fourth Schedule. > > > > > > > > > > (a) Every Judge shall be entitled to such allowan-ces and to such > > > > > rights in > > > > > respect of leave of absence and pension as may from time to time > be > > > > > determined by or under law made by the Legislature, and until so > > > > > determined, > > > > > to such allowances and rights as are specified in the Fourth > > > > > Schedule: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that neither the allowances of a Judge nor his rights in > > > > > respect of > > > > > leave of absence or pension shall be varied to his dis-advantage > > > > > after his > > > > > appointment: > > > > > > > > > > 99. (1) A Judge of the High Court may, by writing under his hand > > > > > addressed > > > > > to the President, resign his office. > > > > > > > > > > (2) A Judge of the High Court shall not be removed from his office > > > > > except by > > > > > an order of the President passed after an address by each House of > > > > > the > > > > > Legislature supported by a majority of the total membership of > that > > > > > House > > > > > and by a majority of not less than two- thirds of the members of > > > > > that House > > > > > present and voting has been presented to the president > > > > > in the same session for such removal on the > > > > > ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The Legislature may by law regulate the procedure for the > > > > > presentation > > > > > of an address and for the investigation and proof of the > > > > > misbehaviour or > > > > > incapacity of a Judge under sub-section (2). > > > > > > > > > > 100. (1) When the office of the Chief Justice is vacant or when > the > > > > > Chief > > > > > Justice is by reason of absence or otherwise, unable to perform > the > > > > > duties > > > > > of his office, the duties of the office shall be performed by such > > > > > one of > > > > > the other > > > > > Judges of the Court as the President may appoint for the purpose. > > > > > > > > > > (2) When any Judge of the High Court other than the Chief Justice > is > > > > > by > > > > > reason of absence or for any other reason unable to perform the > > > > > duties of > > > > > his office or is appointed to act temporarily as Chief Justice, > the > > > > > President may appoint a duly qualified person to act as a Judge of > > > > > the Court > > > > > until the permanent Judge has resumed his duties. > > > > > > > > > > 101. (1) The usual places of sitting of the High Court shall be > > > > > Jammu and > > > > > Srinagar. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Chief Justice shall, with the approval of the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > determine the number of Judges who shall sit from time to time at > > > > > Jammu and > > > > > at Srinagar for such period as may be deemed necessary. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Whenever it appears to the Chief Justice that it is desirable > > > > > that the > > > > > High Courts should hold its sitting at a place other than Srinagar > > > > > and > > > > > Jummu, one or more Judges of the High Court as determined by him > > > > > shall, with > > > > > the previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, sit at such place. > > > > > > > > > > 102. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution and to the > > > > > provisions of > > > > > any law for the time being in force, the jurisdiction of and the > law > > > > > > > > > > administered in the High Court and the respective powers of the > > > > > Judges > > > > > thereof in relation to the administration of justice in the court, > > > > > including > > > > > any power to make rules of court and to regulate the sittings of > the > > > > > court > > > > > and of members thereof, sitting alone or in Division Courts, shall > > > > > be the > > > > > same as immedia-tely before the commencement of this Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > 103. The High Court shall have power to issue to any person or > > > > > authority, > > > > > including in appropriate cases any Government within the State, > > > > > directions, > > > > > orders or writs. including writs in the nature of habeas corpus, > > > > > mandamus, > > > > > prohibition, quo warranto and certiorari, or any of them. for any > > > > > purpose > > > > > other than those mentioned in clause (2A) of article 32 of the > > > > > Constitution > > > > > of India. > > > > > > > > > > 104. (1) The High Court shall have superintendence and control > over > > > > > all > > > > > courts for the time being subject to its appellate or revisional > > > > > jusrisdic-tion and all such courts shall be subordinate to the > High > > > > > Court. > > > > > > > > > > (I) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing > provision, > > > > > the High > > > > > court may: > > > > > > > > > > (a) call for returns from such courts, > > > > > > > > > > (b) make and issue general rules and prescribe forms for > regulating > > > > > the > > > > > practice and pro-ceedings of such courts; and > > > > > > > > > > (c) Prescribe forms in which books, entries and accounts shall be > > > > > kept by > > > > > the officers of any such court. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The High Court may also settle tables of fees to be allowed to > > > > > the > > > > > sheriff and all clerks and officers of such courts and to > attorneys, > > > > > advo-cates and pleaders practicing therein: > > > > > Provided that any rules made, forms prescrib-ed or tables settled > > > > > under > > > > > sub-section (2) or sub-section(3) shall not be inconsistent with > the > > > > > > > > > > provision of any law for the time being in force, and shall > require > > > > > the > > > > > previous approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > 105. If the High Court is satisfied that a case pending in a court > > > > > subordinate to it involves a substantial question of law as to the > > > > > interpretation of this Constitution or the Constitution of India > the > > > > > deter-mination of which is necessary for the disposal of the case, > > > > > it shall > > > > > withdraw the case and may: > > > > > > > > > > (a) either dispose of the case itself; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) determine the said question of law and return the case to the > > > > > court from > > > > > which the case has been so withdrawn together with a copy of its > > > > > judgement > > > > > on such question, and the said court shall on receipt thereof > > > > > proceed to > > > > > dispose of the case in conformity with such judgement. > > > > > > > > > > 106. No person who had held office as a Judge of the > > > > > High Court after the commencement of this Con-stitution shall > plead > > > > > or act > > > > > in any court or before any authority within the State. > > > > > > > > > > 107. (1) The High Court shall have and use as occa-sion may > require > > > > > a seal > > > > > bearing a device and impression of the State emblem with an > exergue > > > > > or label > > > > > surrounding the same with the inscription: > > > > > > > > > > "The seal of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir'' > > > > > > > > > > (2) The seal shall be delivered to. and kept in the custody of, > the > > > > > Registrar or such other officer of the court as the Chief Justice > > > > > may > > > > > designate in this behalf. > > > > > > > > > > 108. (1) Appointments of officers and servants of the High Court > > > > > shall be > > > > > made by the Chief Justice of the court or such other judge or > > > > > officer of the > > > > > court as he may direct: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that the Sadar-i-Riyasat may by rule require that in such > > > > > cases as > > > > > may be specified in the rule no person not already attached to the > > > > > court > > > > > shall be appointed to any office connected with the court save > after > > > > > > > > > > consulta-tion with the State Public Service Commis-sion. > > > > > > > > > > (I) Subject to the provisions of any law made by the Legislature, > > > > > the > > > > > conditions of service of the officers and servants of the High > Court > > > > > shall > > > > > be such as may be prescribed by rules made by the High Court with > > > > > the > > > > > approval of the Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > (3) The administrative expenses of the High Court including all > > > > > salaries, > > > > > allowances and pensions payable to or in respect of the officers > and > > > > > > > > > > servants of the Court' shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fund > > > > > of the > > > > > State, and any fees or other moneys taken by the Court shall form > > > > > part of > > > > > that Fund. > > > > > > > > > > *SUBORDINATE COURTS* > > > > > > > > > > 109. (1) Appointment of persons to be, and the postings: and > > > > > promotion off > > > > > district judges in the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat > in > > > > > > > > > > con-sultation with the High Court. > > > > > (2) A person not already in the service of the : State shall only > > > > > be > > > > > eligible to be appointed a district judge if he has been for not > > > > > less than > > > > > seven years an advocate or pleader and is recommended by the High > > > > > Court for > > > > > appointment. > > > > > > > > > > 110. Appointment of persons other than district judges to the > > > > > judicial > > > > > service of the State shall be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat in > > > > > accordance with > > > > > rules made by him in that behalf after consulation with the Public > > > > > Service > > > > > Commission and with the High Court. > > > > > > > > > > 111. The control over district courts and courts sub-ordinate > > > > > thereto > > > > > including the posting and promo-tion of, and the grant of leave > to, > > > > > persons > > > > > belong-ing to the judicial service of the State and holding any > post > > > > > > > > > > inferior to the post of district judge shall be vested in the High > > > > > Court, > > > > > but nothing in this section shall be construed as taking away from > > > > > any such > > > > > person any right of appeal which he may have under the law > > > > > regulating the > > > > > conditions of his service or as authorising the High Court to deal > > > > > with him > > > > > otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of his service > > > > > prescribed > > > > > under such law. > > > > > > > > > > 112. In this part... > > > > > > > > > > (a) the expression "district judge'' includes additional district > > > > > judge, > > > > > assistant district judge, sessions judge, additional sessions > judge > > > > > and > > > > > assistant sessions judge: > > > > > > > > > > (b) the expression "judical service" means a service consisting > > > > > exclusively > > > > > of persons inten-ded to fill the post of district judge, and other > > > > > civil > > > > > judicial posts inferior to the post of dis-trict judge. > > > > > > > > > > 113. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be public notification direct that > the > > > > > foregoing provisions of this part and any rules made thereunder > > > > > shall with > > > > > effect from such date as may be fixed by him in that behalf apply > in > > > > > > > > > > relation to any class or classes of magis-trates in the State as > > > > > they apply > > > > > in relation to any persons appointed to the judicial service of > the > > > > > State > > > > > Subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified > in > > > > > the > > > > > notification. > > > > > > > > > > *PART VIII* > > > > > *FINANCE, PROPERTY AND CONTRACTS* > > > > > > > > > > 114. No tax shall be levied or collected except by authority of > law. > > > > > > > > > > 115. (1) Subject to the provisions of section 116, all revenues > > > > > received by > > > > > the Government, all loans raised by the Government by the issue of > > > > > treasury bills, loans or ways and means advances and all moneys > > > > > received by > > > > > Government in repayment of loaned shall form one consolidated fund > > > > > to be > > > > > entitled "the Consolidated Fund of the State." > > > > > (2) All other public moneys received by or on behalf of the > > > > > Government shall > > > > > be credited to the public account of the State. > > > > > (3) No moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of the State shall be > > > > > appropriated except in accordance with law and for the purposes > and > > > > > in the > > > > > manner provided in this Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > 116. The Legislature may by law establish a Contingency Fund in > the > > > > > nature > > > > > of an impress to be entitled > > > > > "the Contingency Fund of the State" into which shall be paid from > > > > > time to > > > > > time such sums as may be determined by such law, and the said Fund > > > > > shall be > > > > > placed at the disposal of the Sadar-i--Riyasat to enable advances > to > > > > > be made > > > > > by him out of such fund for the purposes of meeting unforeseen > > > > > expenditure > > > > > pending authorisation of such expendi-ture by Legislature by law > > > > > under > > > > > section 82 or 83. > > > > > > > > > > 117. The State may make any grants for any public purpose, > > > > > notwithstanding > > > > > that the purpose is not one with expect to which the Legislature > may > > > > > make. > > > > > > > > > > 118. The custody of the Consolidated Fund of the State and the > > > > > Contingency > > > > > Funds of the State, the payment of moneys into such funds, the > > > > > withdrawal of > > > > > moneys therefrom, the custody of public moneys other than those > > > > > credited to > > > > > such Fund received by or on behalf of the Government, their > payment > > > > > into the > > > > > public account of the State and the withdrawal of moneys from such > > > > > account > > > > > and all other matters connected with or ancillary to matters > > > > > aforesaid shall > > > > > be regulated by law made by the Legislature and, until provision > in > > > > > that > > > > > behalf is so made, shall be regulated by rules made by the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > > > > > > 119. All moneys received by or deposited with: > > > > > > > > > > (a) any officer employed in connection with the affairs of the > State > > > > > in his > > > > > capacity as such, other than revenues or public moneys raised or > > > > > received by > > > > > the Government; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) an, court within the State to the credit of any cause, matter, > > > > > account > > > > > or persons, shall be paid into the public account of the State. > > > > > > > > > > 120. Any property within the State which, if this Constitution had > > > > > not come > > > > > up into operation, would have accrued to the Government or any > other > > > > > authority hi the State by escheat or lapse, or as bona-vacantia > for > > > > > want of > > > > > a rightful owner, shall vest in the State. > > > > > > > > > > 121. (1) The executive power of the State shall extend, subject to > > > > > any law > > > > > made by the State Legisla-ture, to the carrying on of any trade or > > > > > busi-ness, and to the grant, scale, disposition or mortgage of any > > > > > property > > > > > held for the purposes of the State, and to the purchase or > > > > > acquisi-tion of > > > > > property for those purposes and to the making of contracts. > > > > > > > > > > (2) All property acquired for the purposes of the State shall vest > > > > > in the > > > > > State. > > > > > > > > > > 122. (1) All contracts made in the exercise of the executive power > > > > > of the > > > > > State shall be expressed to be made by the Sadar-i-Riyasat and all > > > > > such > > > > > contracts and all assurance of property made in the exercise of > that > > > > > power > > > > > shall be executed on behalf of the Sadar-i-Riyasat by such persons > > > > > and in > > > > > such manner as he may direct or authorise. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Sadar-i-Riyasat shall not be personally liable in respect > of > > > > > any > > > > > contract or assurance made or executed for the purposes of this > > > > > Constitution, or for the purposes any of enact-ment relating to > the > > > > > Government of the State heretofore in force, nor shall any person > > > > > making or > > > > > executing any such contract or assurance on his behalf be > personally > > > > > liable > > > > > in respect thereof. > > > > > > > > > > 123. The Government may sue or be sued by the name of the State of > > > > > Jammu and > > > > > Kashmir and may, subject to any provisions which may be made by > Act > > > > > of the > > > > > Legislature enacted by virtue of powers conferred by this > > > > > Constitution, sue > > > > > or be sued in relation to its affairs in the like cases as the > State > > > > > might > > > > > have sued or been sued if this Constitution had not been enacted. > > > > > > > > > > *PART IX* > > > > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE* > > > > > > > > > > 124. Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the > Legislature > > > > > may by > > > > > law regulate the recruitment and conditions of service of persons > > > > > appointed, > > > > > to public services and posts in connection with the affairs of the > > > > > State: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that it shall be competent for the Sadar--i-Riyasat or > such > > > > > person > > > > > as he may direct, to make rules regulating the recruitment and the > > > > > conditions of services of persons appointed, to such services and > > > > > posts > > > > > until provisions in that behalf is made by or under an Act of the > > > > > Legislature under this section, and any rules so made shall effect > > > > > subject > > > > > to the provisions of any such Act. > > > > > > > > > > 125. (1) Except expressly provided by this Constitution, every > > > > > person who is > > > > > a member of a civil service of the State or holds any civil post > > > > > under the State hold office during the pleasure of the > > > > > Sadar-i-Riyasat. > > > > > (2) Notwithstanding that a person holding a civil post under the > > > > > State holds > > > > > office during the pleasure of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, any contract > > > > > under which > > > > > a person, not being a member of a civil service of the State, is > > > > > appointed > > > > > to hold such a post man, if the Sadar-i-Riyasat deems it necessary > > > > > in order > > > > > to secure the services of a person having special qualifications, > > > > > provide > > > > > for tile payment to him of compensation, if before the expiration > of > > > > > an > > > > > agreed period that post is abolished or he is, for reasons not > > > > > connected > > > > > with any miscon-duct on his part required to vacate that post. > > > > > > > > > > 126. (1) No person who is a member of a civil service of tile > State > > > > > or holds > > > > > a civil post under the State shall be distressed or removed by an > > > > > authority > > > > > subordinate to that by which he was appointed. > > > > > > > > > > (2) No such person as aforesaid shall be dismissed or removed or > > > > > reduced in > > > > > rank until he has been given a reasonable opportunity of show-ing > > > > > cause > > > > > against the action proposed to be taken in regard to him: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that this sub-section shall not apply: > > > > > > > > > > (a) where a person is dismissed or removed or reduced in rank on > the > > > > > ground > > > > > of con-duct which has led to his conviction on a criminal charge; > > > > > > > > > > (b) where an authority empowered to dismiss or remove a person or > to > > > > > reduce > > > > > him in rank is satisfied that for some reason, to be recorded by > > > > > that > > > > > authority in writing, it is not reasonably practicable to give to > > > > > that > > > > > person an opportunity of showing cause; or > > > > > > > > > > (c) where the Sadar-i-Riyasat is satisfied that in the interests > of > > > > > the > > > > > security of the State it is not expedient to give to that person > > > > > such an > > > > > opportunity. > > > > > > > > > > (3) If any question arises whether it is reasonably > > > > > practicable to give to any person an oppor-tunity of showing cause > > > > > under > > > > > sub-section. > > > > > > > > > > (4) The decision thereon of the authority empo-wered to dismiss or > > > > > remove > > > > > such person or to reduce him in rank, as the case may be, shall be > > > > > final. > > > > > > > > > > 127. Until other Provisional is made in this behalf under the > > > > > constitution, > > > > > all the laws in force im-mediately before the commencement of this > > > > > Consti-tution and applicable to any public service or any post > which > > > > > continues to exist after the commence-ment of this Constitution as > > > > > service > > > > > or post under the- State, shall continue in force so far as > > > > > consistent with > > > > > the provisions of this Constitu-tion. > > > > > > > > > > *THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION* > > > > > > > > > > 128. There shall be a Public Service Commission (here-inafter > > > > > referred to in > > > > > this Part as "the Commi-ssion" for the State. > > > > > > > > > > 129. (1) The Chairman and other members of the Commission shall be > > > > > appointed > > > > > by the Sadar-i-Riyasat: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that as nearly as may be one-half of the members of the > > > > > Commission > > > > > shall be persons who at the dates of their respective appointments > > > > > have held > > > > > office for at least ten years under the Government. > > > > > > > > > > (2) A member of the Commission shall hold office of a terms of > five > > > > > years > > > > > from the date on which he enters upon his office or until he > attains > > > > > the age > > > > > of sixty-five years, whichever is earlier: > > > > > > > > > > Provided that: > > > > > > > > > > (a) a member of the Commission may, by writing under his hand > > > > > addressed to > > > > > the Sadar-i-Riyasat, resign his office > > > > > > > > > > (b) a member of the Commission may be removed from his office in > the > > > > > manner > > > > > hereinafter provided. > > > > > > > > > > (3) A person who holds office as a member of the Commission shall > on > > > > > the > > > > > expiration of his term of office, be ineligible for re-appointment > > > > > to that > > > > > office. > > > > > > > > > > 130. (1) Subject to the provisions of sub-section (3), the > Chairman > > > > > or any > > > > > other member of the Commission shall only be removed from his > office > > > > > by > > > > > order of the Sadar-i-Riyasat on the ground of misbehaviour after > the > > > > > High > > > > > Court on reference being made to it by the Sadar-i--Riyasat, has, > on > > > > > inquiry > > > > > held in that behalf, reported that the Chairman or such other > > > > > member, as the > > > > > case may be ought on any such ground to be removed. > > > > > > > > > > The Sadar-i-Riyasat may suspend from office the Chairman or any > > > > > other member > > > > > of the Commission in respect of whom a reference has been made to > > > > > the High > > > > > Court under sub-section (l) until the Sadar-i-Riyasat has passed > > > > > orders on > > > > > receipt of the report of the High Court on such reference. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Notwithstanding anything in sub-section (1) the > Sadar-i-Riyasat > > > > > may by > > > > > order remove from office the Chairman or any other mem-ber of the > > > > > Commission > > > > > if the Chairman on. such other member, as the case may be - > > > > > > > > > > (a) is adjudged an insolvent; or > > > > > > > > > > (b) engages during his term of office in any paid employment out > > > > > side the > > > > > duties of his office; or > > > > > > > > > > (c) is, in the opinion of the Sadar-i-Riyasat, unfit to continue > in > > > > > office > > > > > by reason of infirmity of mind or body. > > > > > > > > > > (4) If the Chairman or any other member of the Commission is or > > > > > becomes in > > > > > anyway concern-ed or interested in any contract or agreement made > by > > > > > or on > > > > > behalf of the Government of the State, the Government of India or > > > > > the > > > > > Government of any other State in India or participates in anyway > in > > > > > the > > > > > profit thereof or in any benefit or emolument arising therefrom > > > > > otherwise > > > > > than as a member and in common with other members of an > incorporated > > > > > > > > > > company, he shall, for the purposes of sub-section (1), be deemed > to > > > > > be > > > > > guilty misbehavi-our. > > > > > > > > > > 131. The Sadar-i-Riyasat may be regulations: > > > > > > > > > > (a) determine the number of members of the Commission and their > > > > > conditions > > > > > of service; and > > > > > > > > > > (b) make provision with respect to the num-ber of members of the > > > > > staff of > > > > > the Commission and - their conditions of service; > > > > > > > > > > Provided that the conditions of service of a member of the > > > > > Commission shall > > > > > not be varied to his disadvantage after his ap-pointment. > > > > > > > > > > 132. On ceasing to hold office the Chairman and the members of the > > > > > Commission shall be ineligible for further office under the > > > > > Government of > > > > > the State, but a member other than the Chairman shall be eligible > > > > > for > > > > > appointment as a Chairman of the Commission. > > > > > > > > > > Explanation: - For the purposes of this sec-tion; the office of > > > > > Minister or > > > > > Deputy Minister shall not be deemed to be an office under the > > > > > Government of > > > > > the state. > > > > > > > > > > 133. (1) It shall be the duty of the Commissions to conduct > > > > > examinations for > > > > > appointment to the services of the State. > > > > > > > > > > (2) The Commission shall be consulted - > > > > > > > > > > (a) on all matters relating to methods of recruitment to civil > > > > > services and > > > > > for civil posts; > > > > > > > > > > (b) on the principles to be followed in making appointments to > civil > > > > > services and posts and in making promotions and transfers from one > > > > > service > > > > > to another and on the suitability of candidate for such > > > > > appointments, > > > > > promotions or transfers; > > > > > > > > > > (c) on all disciplinary matters affecting a person serving under > the > > > > > Government including memorials or petitions relating to such > > > > > matters; > > > > > and it shall be the duty of the Co... > > [Message clipped] -- SUNDARA BABU NAGAPPAN Mob: +91-9811744919 From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Dec 9 00:32:00 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 19:02:00 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWN Dec 5, 2007) In-Reply-To: <230080.4460.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <230080.4460.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <344bb495cd1e1e5db560ed540a0ab391@sarai.net> Dear Kshemendra, Thank you for this forward. Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan are indeed sad spectacles of the depths to which theocracies and dictatorships will descend. The recent sad spectacle of a kindergarten teacher having to go to prison because of the teddy bear episode in Sudan indicates the moral bankruptcy of islamist regimes. Incidentally, Indian public and private sector companies, especially in the Petro Chemicals sector are a big player in Sudan, even though the Sudanese state is implicated in gross abuses, especially in the Darfur region. I think that a concerted effort to expose the level of official and corporate Indian backing for corrupt Islamist regimes such as those that rule in Sudan would be timely. I think that the extent of influence that the Saudi regime has purchased in India (in cold hard cash) also needs to be thought about. I am sure that if tomorrow an Indian university decided to name its library after George Bush there would (rightly) be a furore, and yet, I was dismayed a few months ago to discover, that Jamia Millia Islamia (a university where I studied) had decided to name its library after the corrupt Saudi Monarch King Abdullah, who presides over the most sexist regime on earth. Every self respecting woman student of Jamia Millia Islamia should could consider herself personally insulted whenever she has to enter this library building. It is sad that no Indian newspaper or television channel has ever thought it necessary to send journalists to probe the extent to which the Indian state provides aid and succor to such brutal regimes and their clients, be they in Burma or in Sudan. regards Shuddha On 7:25 pm 12/08/07 Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Common sense under attack > By Mahir Ali > > http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mahir/arc-mahir.htm > > > WHEN she arrived in Khartoum four months ago, Gillian Gibbons > couldn’t possibly have had any inkling that she’d be headed back to > England some four months later, following a stint in prison. > > In a statement issued last Saturday, the incarcerated 54-year-old > Liverpudlian said she wasn’t keen to leave Sudan and would much rather > return to work. “The Sudanese people in general have been pleasant and > very generous,’’ she noted, “and I’ve had nothing but good > experiences during my four months here.” > > What makes the level of equanimity and goodwill remarkable is that > the previous day, following Friday prayers, there were mobs baying for > her blood, demanding that the 15-day prison sentence handed down by a > Khartoum court be upgraded to death by a firing squad. So, what exactly > did Gibbons do to inspire such demands for vengeance? > > Well, a month into her stint as a teacher at the Unity School, where > she was in charge of seven-year-olds, she came up with a device for > engaging the kids’ interest in one of the designated topics: bears. > One of the children brought her teddy bear to school and her classmates > were assigned the task of taking the teddy home, one by one, and > writing about their experiences. > > Before the project got underway, Gibbons asked the kids to choose a > name for the cuddly toy. There were various suggestions, including > Abdullah and Hassan. A little boy called Mohammad put forward his own > name for consideration. The teacher arranged a class vote and Mohammad > won hands down. She accepted the democratic verdict. Reasonably enough, > the idea that anyone would find this objectionable appears not to have > so much as crossed her mind. Two months later, police arrived at the > Unity compound to arrest Gibbons for insulting Islam. The school’s > director, Robert Boulos, was told that some parents had complained to > the ministry of education. It subsequently turned out that the sole > complainant was in fact an office assistant at the school, who served > as the main witness for the prosecution - or, to be more precise, > persecution. > > The verdict of 15 days in prison followed by deportation occasioned > sighs of relief, given that it could have been worse: six months in > prison and 40 lashes. At the weekend, two Muslim British peers were > engaged in negotiations with the Sudanese authorities in Khartoum, and > they were expected to fly back to London with Gibbons after obtaining a > presidential pardon. That’s all very well, but the point remains that > the only insult in this case - an insult to common sense, if not to > Islam - came from those who pursued a vendetta on patently absurd > grounds. It has been argued that Gibbons erred inadvertently, that as a > novice in Sudan she was unaware of cultural sensitivities. That’s an > unnecessarily patronising point of view; I suspect she erred only in > failing to make an allowance for the idiocy of some Muslims. It has > also been suggested that the Sudanese government stoked the controversy > in order to draw international attention away from the monumental > tragedy in Darfur. There may be some truth in that, but there’s > probably more logic in sheeting home the blame to sheer dogmatic > blockheadedness. > > An example of considerably more egregious judicial malice has, > meanwhile, surfaced in Saudi Arabia, where a victim of gang rape has > been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison. The supposed > logic behind this punishment illustrates the extent to which the > kingdom operates in a different time zone from much of the world - in > terms of centuries rather than hours. > > The unnamed, recently married 19-year-old, who has been dubbed the > Qatif girl in a reference to her mainly Shia hometown, apparently > wished to retrieve a photograph of herself from a former male > acquaintance before she moved in with her husband, so she arranged a > meeting with the young man. While the two of them were in a car, they > were accosted by a couple of men armed with knives, who took them to an > isolated area. The young woman was violated 14 times by seven men, > three of whom also raped her companion. > > When the case came before a Qatif court, the judges sentenced four of > the assailants to terms ranging up to five years for kidnapping, but > also sentenced the Qatif girl and her male friend to 90 lashes each for > the ‘crime’ of being in each other’s company. Her lawyer, a human > rights advocate by the name of Abdul-Rehman al-Lahem, filed an appeal > and also brought the case to the notice of the media. He was > consequently stripped of his licence, and his client’s sentence was > more than doubled to 200 lashes plus six months in prison. > > There are grounds for assuming that officially sanctioned crimes > against humanity along these lines are not exactly a rarity in Saudi > Arabia, although they don’t always attract international attention. > Queried on the subject during his Annapolis trip last week, Prince Saud > al-Faisal commented: “What is outraging about this case is that it is > being used against the Saudi government and its people.” In fact, what > is ‘outraging’ about this case is that the victims of an abominable > crime have been sentenced to humiliating and painful punishments on > utterly frivolous grounds, and that too on the basis of depositions by > their assailants. > > Such instances make it extremely difficult to take Islamic justice > seriously. The Saudi justice ministry has sought to malign the Qatif > girl by saying that she has confessed to having an extramarital affair > - which, apart from probably being untrue, is neither here nor there. > > The only hopeful signs in this context are al-Lahem’s endeavours, > plus the fact that the Qatif girl’s husband has chosen to serve as a > pillar of support instead of divorcing her. What’s more, at least a > couple of Saudi columnists have dared to raise their voices against > their nation’s system of injustice. Much of the West, meanwhile, > continues to court Riyadh as if it were a bastion of sanity and > stability in an otherwise turbulent region. > > Inanities in the name of Islam are not restricted to Sudan and Saudi > Arabia, of course. Pakistan frequently emerges as a venue for all > manner of excesses. Recent examples from a few neighbouring countries, > however, should suffice to bear out this contention. > > In Iran, 27-year-old Dr Zahra Baniyaghoub died while in the custody > of the morality and virtue police after she and her fiancé were > arrested for chatting to each other in a public park. The authorities > claimed she committed suicide, but Baniyaghoub’s family doesn’t > accept this explanation, evidently for very good reasons, and has > engaged the services of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Shirin Ebadi to > press for an inquiry. In India, Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen > continues to be hounded by Muslims for her supposed blasphemy, while in > Turkey Erol Karaaslan, the translator and publisher of Richard > Dawkins’ atheist treatise The God Delusion faces charges of inciting > religious hatred. > > Karaaslan is about as guilty as Gillian Gibbons. It should be clear > to even the meanest intelligence that the dimwits engaged in turning > molehills into mountains are doing a monumental disservice to the faith > they purport to uphold. > > The writer is a journalist based in Sydney. > > mahir.worldview at gmail.com > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From hpp at vsnl.com Sun Dec 9 16:32:43 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (hpp at vsnl.com) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 11:02:43 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Article on Calcutta riots Message-ID: Dear Friends I am copying below Ruchir Joshi's article in today's Telegraph (Calcutta) on Ripon Street and the riots of 21 November 2007. Best V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com ......................... ONCE UPON A TIME IN RIPON Ruchir Joshi takes a walk through Ripon Street - the scene of the recent riots over Taslima Nasreen - and finds it a fascinating grid of avarice, opportunism and vibrancy. The sms buzzes my phone in Madras and it’s as terse as phone texts get. There’s only one word that can be shortened – `called’ – but the sender hasn’t bothered: `Riots in Cal. Army called out.’ In the Self-Immolation capital of the world, everything around me is calm. It’s late afternoon and children are being picked up from the school across the lane; a waiting driver is playing Tam-pop in his Indica, one foot lodged in the `v’ of his half-open door; the rice-powder kolams outside the gates of the colony are already well-smudged. It feels like I am in another country, receiving news from a far-away home I no longer recognise. The house where I am has no TV and, at first, I can’t quite figure out who has rioted. Could it be the film-makers? Surely not. Could they have dropped Ganguly for the Eden Test? No chance. Through a patchwork of sms-es and net news, I begin to get the picture, or so I think. `Muslims’ were rioting. The names cropping up were Park Circus, 4-number Bridge, Lower Circular and Ripon Street. Obviously, the issues were Nandigram and Rizwanul, or a cocktail of the two, but what exactly had triggered it off? It takes a couple of hours for the answer to crystallise and when it comes, it is bizarre: `Taslima protest turns violent. Police confronts 10,000-strong mob before calling in Army. Epicentre: Ripon Street.’ As Taslima Nasreen makes her way west, I come back east. If I expect to see Calcutta transformed after the protests of early November or the riots later in the month, I am disappointed: everything is normal, nice early winter atmosphere, people and pollution both going about their usual business. *** The whole area between Park Street and Dharmatalla has always fascinated me, even more so since I began to delve into Calcutta’s years of the Second World War. There has long been a mix of Anglo-Indian and Muslim populations here, the former thinning gradually as the latter grew, after Independence. This is where the local band musicians and catering industry people lived, this is where the sex-industry that catered to shaheb-ish tastes was based, this is where the Chinese had serious footholds south of Chinatown further to the north; this was also one of the main places where the dream first took root, in the late 1930s and early 40s, of a country called Pakistan and then, briefly and marginally, of a Muslim-majority, united, Republic of Bengal. Growing up in the 70s, the streets and roads with names like Free School, Elliot, Ripon, Royd and Wellesley formed part of a dangerous and fascinating grid for a boy from a middle-class Hindu background such as myself. Then, it seemed as if all the delicious taboos had been herded into this one city within a city: the jazz and pop, the booze, the drugs, the prostitution, the mutton rizalas and the beef kababs. Not daring to venture too close to the professional dames or the drugs, I didn’t actually enter too deeply into this world, but, whenever I made a foray there was never any real sense of threat or danger – the area was merely one exotic part of my city, which happened to be a city full of exotic parts. Now, when I get off at the junction of Ripon Street and Lower Circular Road, there is still the pall of quotidian Calcutta chaos. The taxis and buses are still trying to kill me, the traffic cops are still lazing about like indifferent cows, the grime has returned post the monsoon and it lies on everything as if it owns the place, which it still does. Rather than go straight into Ripon, I cross the road and take a walk through the galis on the other side of Lower Circular. These are typical Calcutta galis, the narrow patch of broken asphalt bordered with gutter water, walls crumbling into the road, irrespective of whether they were put up in 1980 or 1780, aggressive vegetation growing out of every unbelievable nook and cranny as if this is where nature is beginning its fightback to recover the planet from humans. Haji Lane, Mistri Para Lane, Noor Ali Lane, all winding quietly, all looking ready to go back to a sleepy November evening in the 19th century, if not all the way back to the beginning of eternity. There is a relatively fresh-looking notice pasted on a wall, the dirt sitting lightly enough for one to be able to read. `Jobs in the Gulf’, it says, with complicated tables below listing various construction and low-level engineering jobs. In one corner there is a box which lists waiters’ jobs for `Muslims Only’ whic h include `keeping the establishment clean and hygenic’. Lying right below it, torn and scuffed by footprints, is a placard in red Bangla type with a hammer and sickle: `Maintain peace and discipline in the neighbourhood’. Heading back to the main road, the walls develop slogans: thin, dripping, black block letters, scrawled quickly, `Taslima Go Back!’, and again and again, till the guy tries a variation on the chhanda, `Go Back Taslima!’ and then on one side of an open factory gate an almost-haiku: `TASLI GO’, finished on the other gate by an equally elliptical `MA BACK!’ *** When different people explain what happened that day, a few things emerge quite clearly. There was the main anti-Taslima procession on Lower Circular, the supposed `chakka jaam’, there was police presence and there was tension, but apparently not riot-level tension. The party properly started when groups of men came out of these lanes across Lower Circular, one by one the mouths of the galis filling up with small mobs from Taanti Para, Mehdi Bagan and Bedford Lane, these names later becoming thin euphemisms for `easily incitable underclass’, in this case an underclass amply supplied with broken brick and shards of shattered tubelights. There were people in Ripon Street proper as well, breaking bricks on the roof of the Saran Laundry – a low building – and hurling stuff down at the police from above; but mainly the rioters came, as they often do, from `onno para’, from `doosrey muhalley’, from that ever-present, incendiary `elsewhere’. After all the ups and downs it has gone through, Ripon itself is now a street heavy with middle-class homes, businesses and ongoing construction. `Majority belonging to Muslims’, as one local points out, `but not the kind of Muslims who would like a riot.’ At least, not most of them. Talking to people, I hear a repeated theme: an open nexus between local and not-so local politicians and at least two powerful builders vying for street-supremacy in the area, and the varying agendas these figures might have, that would make them welcome the occasional upheaval. As I walk up Ripon street, I see the difference from other parts of Calcutta but also, inescapably, the similarities; in a construction-drunk city, this is yet another street overdosing on rampant concrete, with old, infirm houses being ripped down and new buildings squeezing up through the available space. The garish new apartments, painted with what I call `Gulf Colours’, sit side by side with the older constructions, some of them going back into the early 19th century and maybe even the late 18th. All of these, old, new and in-between, form a curious architectural cross-section of the city’s history. The old beauties have survived the rapid change-overs of the last twenty years, the shifting out of the Anglo-Indians, the height of the goonda era from the mid-80s to the late 90s, and currently, the weighty hand of new avarice. The old buildings have their rotting, time-bombed charm, while the new constructions are prime real estate, close to the centre of a city experienci ng a property boom. But the majority of architecture on Ripon street consists of the deadly, Calcutta, `Nothing-style’ baadis made in the 50s, 60s and 70s, the ones you pass by without ever remembering a single façade or feature, the ones that do not advertise the stories they contain. One of the alleged instigators of the recent riots was arrested from one such building. As the man who is showing me around points out the place, the whole business of Taslima comes up again. `The whole thing had nothing to do with us, with Ripon Street or any of the people living here, Muslims or otherwise,’ says one resident. WHAT DO THEY CARE ABOUT TASLIMA? Mohammad Mustafa, a ramrod-straight tax consultant in his seventies, is even more outspoken: `These Minority Forum people are kicking at the CPM now, but it was this very same Government that gave these people a huge boost earlier. What is this Minority Forum that consists only of Muslims? Where are the Sikhs, Christians and Parsis in this forum? The CPM never questioned this, and now, look – they can’t even keep control in this elaaka so near their headquarters!’ Mustafa’s desk is old, nicked, but spotless. A motorcycle is parked next to it, right inside his office, obviously not safe to leave outside. His voice is quiet but all the more precise for it. `What do these people care about Taslima? She has been here for years, so why do this now? They are not in the least bothered about her.’ Mustafa’s father graduated in Medicine in the same batch as B.C Roy, and the family has lived in this lane off Ripon Street since 1925. Mustafa’s own life spans from the time when the population of the neighbourhood was peaceably split 50-50 between Anglo-Indian and Muslim. What he says gells exactly with the viewpoint of another, much younger man, `B’, who lives nearby. As he says himself, `B’ is both Muslim and CPM cadre. `You go and ask the Anglos who still live in Ripon street and they’ll tell you – the Mosey buggers kicked us out, man! And it’s true. The good Anglos left, mostly. There are still some decent families left, but most of them are the dregs, involved in the same business as the Muslim thugs.’ `B’s take on the riots is clear and makes sense even as I see the Party-line spinning. `Taslima lives in Rawdon Street. Why not go there and protest? What’s the point of burning tyres in Park Circus? It was all planned from before, and the idea was to show the Government what these guys could do, and to let Trinamul know that they still had strength. Panchayat elections are coming next year, after all.’ So, if it was all so pre-planned, if the rioters were brought in from other areas, if it was such a `focussed riot’, how come the police had no idea this it about to happen? `Arre, we who have daily contact with these streets didn’t know, so how could the cops?’ *** When I ask Euphemia, who lives right on Ripon, she says she was completely out of it. `Uss day ko? I had no idea, at first. Then I knew trouble was happening at the end of our street and people were scared for the school children, but I kept away.’ Sheikh Hafizuddin, who has run his tailoring establishment for over thirty years says he went to Badabazar to do his work and came back untouched. Reggie, who says he hasn’t emigrated because `this country won’t let me go’, was specific: `There is no blessed problem between us all living here. But what these mad people who came from outside and did is wrong. The school children got tortured. You have a political problem you keep it in the political area.’ Tanweer describes the kids caught in the schoolbuses and inside the clutch of schools that dot Ripon, children terrified, wanting to get home, the tear-gas stinging their eyes, the Army arriving in the late afternoon. He speaks of how he got some of the children out via the back streets, getting them to their anxious parents waiting outside the `trouble area’. *** Area. Who defines it? How does one define it? What becomes clear is this: There is Ripon Street, cutting east-west across the belly of Calcutta like an acupuncturist’s median. The history and money waver and flicker, from the end facing Taanti Para on Lower Circular Road to the other, where it meets Free School Street at Karnani Mansions and the molluscs of swish restaurants attached to the hulk of that huge old pile. There are the surrounding areas, Wellesley/Rafi Ahmed Kidwai, Park Circus and the sea of tanneries around No. 4 Bridge and Tangra, the CPM’s Father Stalin HQ at Alimuddin Street and the Mother Teresa HQ at Mother House. Here live large numbers of the city's labouring poor as well as two different claimants to the mantle of bringing succour to them. Next, there is the haphazard grid of greed, both within the law and downright unlawful, that spreads its net across the whole city. That invites the playing out of all kinds of irruptions, both choreographed and spontaneous. There is an area called Nandigram, in Midnapur district, that doesn’t show up in this map at all. Neither does the local train line next to which they found the body of Rizwanul Rahman. THE IRE OF THE UNDERCLASS One of the articulate young Party guys gives me an image: `Media always criticises the CPM. They take an issue and stretch it like chewing gum, and people buy it.’ Masticating the strip of logic, one can connect all these diverse areas. Some might be a stretch, but that’s the function of chewing gum – you can make very thin, fragile but tenacious bridges with it: there is a large, frustrated underclass in this seemingly, newly booming megalopolis; this class is now face to face not only with new and naked low-level wealth, but with a clearly communalised Government bureaucracy and police-force; the Muslim sections of this underclass are even more vulnerable because they are prey not only to the establishment but also to unscrupulous mullahs about whom the `socialist’ Government and `secular’ party cadre can do absolutely Sweet Nothing – puny, cretinous clerics with nothing better to do, who are able to hold to ransom the pusillanimous Bengali Hindus who run the Party. Now let’s see if there’s any gum left to stretch and stick to Taslima Nasrin, the offending writer. *** When I ask `B’ and his comrades about Taslima they shrug their shoulders. `Look if someone insults your mother and your father you are bound to react. And this stupid woman has insulted her own mother and father.’ Talking to these men what I get is that they would have had no problem with a `genuine protest’ against Nasrin, it’s the manipulated nature of the riots, the not-so-hidden agenda behind them that they find objectionable. I bring in M.F Husain and Rushdie, and their reaction is the same – they shouldn’t have insulted anyone’s religion. I argue that people can insult religions or someone’s mother and father, and others can insult back, but surely no one has a right to kill or demand death on that basis. `H’ a young intellectual turns to me, `Listen, you and I can argue about this and we can even see each other’s point of view. I can agree that no one should be killed for this, but the crowd isn’t going to stop and take this democratically. The crowd will always react, and the mullahs and politicians use this.’ `And what do you do to counter the mullahs?’ I ask. `We do what we can, but there are limits because they know we are connected to the Party. Ultimately the mullah can turn to me and say “you are an atheist! Why should we listen to you?” bas, baat vahi khatam.’ In this ground reality, things play quite differently from the views of `liberal’`antels’ like me. When I bring up Rizwanul, I am told: `Look, the second part of what that Todi did was wrong, but the first part was understandable –no father is going to just sit there and give up his precious daughter. He has brought her up, so it becomes his right to try and stop her from a wrong marriage. So he had a right to try his best. That first part was fine, the second part was wrong, the boy should not have been killed.’ The whole business of the `wrong marriage’ comes up again when I talk to a couple of Anglo-Indians still living on the street. `That’s the problem,’ one tells me, `our people married others, you know, like, married outside our community. That’s when the problems started, when the inter-marriages began, and when these goondas began to barge into our parties wanting free drinks.’ Adrian Newbigging remembers a Ripon-time before the problems. `We are Anglos you know, so we are always ready for a party. So you got four people, or you got twenty, and you got together at someone’s house and you played your music. We’d all sing and jam, or play records and people would jive. Like all the old stuff, Tom Jones and Englebert, and then there was the Pussycats and Abba and all.’ This was the time of the Sunday `Fashion Parade’ at the 8.30am mass at St Mary’s church, where the girls would dress to the hilt and the boys would gather to look; of the Zoo Club which pulled in musicians, big and unknown, to jam together; of the time when the ganja was pure and the beer cheap. `Now the dry stuff has gone –too much garbage mixed into it, and the elbow-bending has gone down a bit too.’ Says another man, wistfully, `at that time we used to smoke like pure KG and the juice was so good, you won’t believe it.’ Whatever Islam was being practiced around Ripon Street, it was practiced peacefully, side by side with the most open sexuality and pleasure the city could provide. Unlike the inward-looking middle-class paras of North and South Calcutta, this was an open, mixed, syncretic, public neighbourhood, and it was a very far cry from the East Pakistan that grew into Bangladesh. *** Just as I suspect I wouldn’t find Ripon Street in the writings of Taslima, I found no trace of Taslima on Ripon Street or its environs, save, that is, for the sad, scrawled slogans in the galis. Those slogans and the riots are serious, but they are also the very worst kind of a bad joke, one that should have nothing to do with Calcutta. Riots triggered by twisted religion should not well up from roads named after heroes of the proletarian struggle such as Hare Krishna Konar Road and Muzzafar Ahmed Street, (as Ripon is now called), but they do. Writers should have the courage of their convictions and they should not agree to rub out pages from their books to keep the remote-controlled crowds at bay, but, sadly, they do. Supposedly Communist governments should not be overseeing the rape and murder of peasants, but, as they have done in the past, they still do. As Hafizuddin tailors his polyester Shah Rukhiya trousers with the `Mohabbat’-style cross-pockets, as Euphemia nurses her sick husband back to health, as the schoolkids flock to Ripon in their multi-coloured uniforms, as Tanweer tends to the big paantha he is saving to gift to someone at Bakr Eid, as Mohammad Mustafa reflects on times gone by, as Reggie shakes his head thinking about the tear-gas, as the uncooked kababs glisten in their marinade waiting for the tawaa, I search for someone here who has read the writings of Taslima Nasrin. It’s a joke. No matter what pages Nasrin now chooses to excise from her long-published books, and no matter who pushes her into this, or from which motive, and no matter who stands by and heaves a sigh of relief, it is these living pages from the beautiful, messy, blasphemous, vibrant book of Calcutta that are in danger of being ripped out forever. From aman.am at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 20:40:21 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:10:21 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The shotgun and the sniper Message-ID: <995a19920712090710i25c3bd2cm95efbefcef714d03@mail.gmail.com> "The time for silver bullets has passed," proclaimed Marc Stewart, "What we need is a Shotgun!" In his bright Bali shirt, Nike sneakers and Investment Banker haircut, Mr Stewart is the firm-handshaking, fist pumping, ever effusive all-American co-founder of Ecosecurities, a firm that specialises in developing and marketing carbon trading projects under the Clean Development Mechanism - CDM - of the Kyoto Protocol. With emission reductions under Kyoto less than a month away, Mr Stewart's firm is looking to extend its market capitalisation to far beyond its existing 40 million USD. The Ecosecurity model functions in the following way - they find and help develop projects in the developing world that is eligible for credit credits under the CDM, and then sell the credits in to firms in EU and across the orld that are looking to meet their Kyoto targets by offsetting excess emissions against carbon credits. Firms like Ecosecurities pushed the carbon market to 30 billion dollars in 2006; and if Annex 1 agrees to further emission cuts (25-40 per cent below 1992 by 2020) the potential size of the market is open to the most optimistic hyperbole. The "Shotgun Approach" suggested by Stewart was his response to the fact the Climate Change is a "reality that needs to be addressed NOW" - and that governments, international bodies and business would have to proceed on a rampage on all possible fronts simultaneously - sort of like the blunt double-barrelled, pump action shotguns freely available back home in America. The Shotgun approach was Mr Stewart's reason for opening up and extending carbon markets to as many sectors as possible - particularly Forestry. If we were to examine the shotgun metaphor in some detail, we find the shotgun is best known for its tremendous stopping power at short-ranges (say 40 per cent reduction in 10 years?), and the fact that on firing, the shot divides up into pellets, making it easy to hit small targets at some distance, allowing even inexperienced marksmen to use it with a fair degree of competency. And Mr Stewart is not the only one holding the shotgun. A week into the climate change conference, there seems to be a very interesting development paradigm emerging that is vaguely reminiscent of the AIDS approach to development. Under the adaptation and mitigation arms of Climate change - it is possible to embark on any number of projects in the guise of saving the planet. While "Saving the Poor" has clearly lost some of lustre on the funding markets, "Saving the Planet" seems to be bringing in some serious money from governments, donor bodies and private enterprise. The fact that climate shall hit everyone in end, and not just the "poor and vulnerable" (though it is routinely stressed that they shall be the worst hit) seems to have motivated some serious thinking. The first week at Bali has largely centred around the "tremendous opportunites presented by Climate Change." Thus you have sessions on "Climate Change and Gender", "Climate Change and Health", "Climate Change and the Millenium Development Goals", "Leadership and Climate Change", and my personal favourite "Climate Change and HIV/AIDS." Fire the Climate Change Shotgun and hit a whole collection of development indices - big ones at short ranges, small ones at longer ranges. The approach might just have some benefits - given the urgency of the problem (and yes, Climate Change is a real, serious, significant problem that has to be dealt with); groups working on thankless, under-funded projects like Malaria, disaster management, and drought relief might finally get the money they require - and all projects need to be "sexed up" to fit into donor spending agenda. What is interesting is the shift one sees from an earlier approach to development - which could be termed the "Sniper Approach" (My metaphor, not Mr Stewart's). The Sniper rifle, is a specialised rifle designed to maximise accuracy over long distances to hit precise targets. Thus, the Sniper Approach could be understood as a metaphor for highly decentralised specific schemes that target specific projects. These were much in vogue in the late nineties and continue to be applied in community level projects - where the approach is custom designed for the community in question and takes on board their specific needs. The Sniper approach was supposed to reduce system leakages, often using information technology and verification apparatus and was favoured by organisations like the World Bank to ensure that benefits of specific schemes were "targeted" (coincidentally a word that development agencies use a lot) at those that needed them the most. The idea was to introduce fiscal discipline in developing economies and ensure that the limited subsidies that were handed out went to the intended recipients. India's TPDS - or Targeted Public Distribution System - could be a useful example of such a scheme. Another one could be the Micro-credit intiatives and SHGs (Self Help Groups), so loved by one and all; but i suppose the fact that SHG's operate on small scales and ranges could call for Pistol/ Handgun Initiatives. One week into the conference, it is hard to tell what approach to take - perhaps one could take all three on board and step out battle-hardened and armed to the teeth. Personally, I find myself sympathetic to cause of the solar powered tazer : renewable, zero-emissions and allegedly non-lethal; always a good approach to saving the world. best a. From zainabbawa at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 22:03:07 2007 From: zainabbawa at yahoo.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 16:33:07 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Empowering India - Gujarat Electoral Candidates Information Message-ID: <732062.92249.qm@web36105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> www.EmpoweringIndia.org If you are voter in Gujarat, this site will provide you information, which was not easily accessible before, about your candidate in your constituency. We are digitising every the affidavits filed by every candidate in every constituency in Gujarat. You could access information about the candidates assets, liabilities, education status, and instances of criminal charges against them, if any. And this information is available at the click of a button. Information is power. Our objective is to share as much information as possible with the voters in Gujarat, and contribute to building active citizenship. Be informed. Cast your Vote. Strengthen the largest democracy in the world. Celebrate the democratic miracle. Please share this information to all you know in Gujarat. We greatly welcome your comments and criticism. And we will try to learn and improve our system. This is an initiative of Liberty Institute in New Delhi. We hope to expand this process of active citizenship to other states of India. We also have past election information on www.IndianDemocracy.net Zainab Bawa Mumbai www.xanga.com/citybytes ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 22:05:16 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 16:35:16 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=27Roots_in_Kashmir=92_condemns_NH?= =?windows-1252?q?RC=2C_International_Human_Rights_groups?= Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712090835q6eb2d9a6j450a84fa152591b2@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/%e2%80%98roots-in-kashmir%e2%80%99-condemns-nhrc-international-human-rights-groups/ From oishiksircar at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 23:08:59 2007 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 17:38:59 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Marketing Trafficking, Compromising Rights In-Reply-To: <62cba67a0712090935w5982b931ya4f05a5062a5633a@mail.gmail.com> References: <62cba67a0712090935w5982b931ya4f05a5062a5633a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62cba67a0712090938y14f65398i979edbc6f35e1da9@mail.gmail.com> Hi... This article by me was published recently by Women's Feature Service, and is available at http://www.boloji.com/wfs6/wfs1079.htm Here's the complete version... comments welcome... Oishik *Marketing Trafficking, Compromising Rights* * * *By: Oishik Sircar* <#116bff9e8e61bdc2__ftn1>* **** First it was HIV/ AIDS, and now through a pandemic-scale response, a close second in the race for the 'worst things affecting humanity list' is trafficking. From international funding to policy interventions to public media and Bollywood – all are interested in trafficking. What prompts this interest? In June 2007, the U.S. government's Department of State released their 'Trafficking in Persons Report', which placed India on Tier 2 watch list for the fourth year in a row for failing to effectively combat trafficking. India was actually a borderline case because if Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte had his way, India could have very well been listed as a Tier 3 country, meaning worst offender. Condoleezza Rice overruled him and agreed to undertake a special evaluation of India in six months, and then take action. So before the six month period gets over in December 2007, the need to represent India's unfailing commitment to combating trafficking is being carried out on all fronts – and an unprecedented use of public media is being deployed to salvage India's international standing as a state which is committed to end trafficking. As a consequence of this response the community getting a raw deal are sex workers – caught in the quagmire of both trafficking as well as HIV/ AIDS. Anti-trafficking policy and campaigns have always tended to wrongly conflate trafficking and sex work. This understanding progresses on an assumption that if women get trafficked, they are always forced into sex work. This has three major fallouts: one, it invisibilises the many other occupations that trafficked people, especially women, might take up; it denies women the agency that they can exercise to move on their own; and it does not address the violence and abuse women might face in the process of being trafficked. The response is thus, either to criminalize sex work, or to bar women's right to move in the hope of stopping trafficking. While it cannot be denied that many women are trafficked into sex work, anti-trafficking measures seldom privilege the experiences of sex workers, who collectively also combat trafficking, to devise policies. On the other hand, sex workers are also identified as the primary vectors for the spread of HIV/ AIDS. The idea is to stop HIV/AIDS from leaving the 'bodies' of sex workers, and through married male clients finally reaching the good/loyal and chaste wife in the family. This is done through mandatory health check-ups and surveillance instead of creating enabling conditions that would help sex workers protect themselves against contracting the disease from clients who come to them. Wrongly identifying sex workers as a community that is solely responsible for the spread of HIV/AIDS stigmatises them and makes them more vulnerable to the disease. Two recent anti-trafficking campaigns by MTV and the UN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) are complicit in perpetuating this image of the sex worker as the agency-less trafficked woman. The MTV campaign called End Exploitation and Trafficking (EXIT) has made a film called 'Sold'. The film is narrated by Lara Dutta and does not look at prostitution as the only logical end of trafficking, though a majority of the portion is devoted to prostitution and several simulated images of a girl trafficked into prostitution being raped. If the film had stuck to the testimonies of 'victims' it would have been fine, but it becomes problematic because the larger narrative of the film passes value judgments about how demand for paid sex among the youth in India is a major cause for sex trafficking and suggests that only when we stop paying for sex will we be able to combat trafficking, which in effect is an abolitionist stand on sex work. MTV EXIT's website provides a list of anti-trafficking organizations in India, but the work of sex workers' collectives – Self Regulatory Boards (SRBs) of the Durbar Mahila Samanyaya Committee (DMSC), Kolkata and the Mohalla Committees of Veshya Anyay Mukti Parishad (VAMP), Sangli – who have also been combating trafficking and are internationally recognized models for anti-trafficking work – does not find mention. Is it because it is difficult to imagine that sex workers can articulate the right to sex work as strongly as their right against trafficking and exploitation? The UNODC campaign which is called the UN Global Initiative to Fight Human Trafficking (UN-GIFT) has also made a public service film called 'One Life, No Price'. This film's script is similar to MTV's 'Sold', but has not one but several Bollywood stars, including Amitabh Bachhan, urging people to join the fight against trafficking. The cases represented are based on real incidents. While this film also does not singularly focus on sex trafficking the stories of four girls – who were sold into a brothel, duped into joining a massage parlour and forced to work as a bar dancer – are given maximum screen space. The recreation of the brothel is especially problematic: where 'slutty' sex workers are chewing pan accosting clients and the trafficked girl is being tortured by an evil looking 'madam'. This representation constructs brothels as 'hell holes' where women have no agency, denying the reality in the lives sex workers – which are a combination of fear and fun. While brothels are definitely not the best places, recognizing the ways in which women negotiate their stay and work there is necessary, if we are to devise policies for 'rescuing' them. Interestingly, the director of this film, Sunita Krishnan, who runs Prajwala, an anti-trafficking organization in Hyderabad, was quoted in an interview to the development news website InfoChange, saying that since all women are forced into prostitution, they must also be forced out of it. Disturbed by the UNODC campaign – which also stated that India is among the top human trafficking destinations in South Asia, with over 35,000 young girls and women from Bangladesh and Nepal being brought into the country every year – both DMSC and VAMP have responded strongly. In an open letter DMSC alleged that these statistics were merely anecdotal, and that the anti-trafficking strategy of UNODC does not make sex workers stake-holders in the campaign. "Being engaged in anti-trafficking programmes in West Bengal for the last 12 years we know the inner workings/strategies of the traffickers. Without sex workers' participation trafficking cannot be stopped – SRBs are a conclusive example of this. We run 30 SRBs across the state. We can immediately identify a new comer and can ascertain whether she has willing come or has been trafficked. If she is trafficked we send her back home. Before our collective force nobody can retain the girl or the women in sex work. Moreover, we successfully involve the local stakeholders and police and have developed a strong network and under our vigilance a trafficker however well connected, cannot escape," the letter stated. On a lighter note DMSC has wondered whether soulful pleas by Bollywood actors would actually detract traffickers! In a response from VAMP, Meena Seshu has attempted to urge non-sex workers who are doing anti-trafficking work, to pay heed to what sex workers have to say: "Non-sex workers have to forego deep convictions about sex work in order to make conversation with sex workers possible. They will have to accept that the community can actually identify and address violations they face – with or without outside help. History has recorded that generations of outsiders and outside interventions have tried but have failed miserably. Be it the SRB or the VAMP Mohalla Committees, we need to recognize and be encouraging of their smallest successes." Coming back to where it all began: one of the major sources that fuel this tension between sex workers and anti-trafficking work is the US government's policy on HIV/ AIDS and trafficking. Governments in India and the Global South have been required to take cognisance of the 2003 United States Leadership against HIV/AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria Act (Global AIDS Act) and the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorisation Act. The US Global AIDS Act bars the use of federal funds to "promote, support, or advocate the legalisation or practice of prostitution". As a report by the Centre for Health and Gender Equity in the US points out: "Organisations receiving US global HIV/AIDS funding also must adopt specific organisation-wide positions that explicitly oppose prostitution and trafficking. Such funding restrictions force organisations working in public health from Southern countries that heavily rely on US funding to comply with an ideological litmus test that often runs counter to both public health practice and human rights standards." In 2005, when VAMP returned a $12, 000 grant from USAID (the US frontline funding agency), because they did not wish to be bound by such conditionalities, through an organized conspiracy VAMP was accused of engaging in child trafficking. So it doesn't remain a surprise any longer that the MTV EXIT campaign is funded by USAID and US remains the single largest benefactor of the UN. It's a pity that in an attempt to combat trafficking – which indeed has reached alarming proportions – we have ended up marketing it for its perverse popularity, and in effect are trading the rights of sex workers, instead of making them equal stakeholders. ------------------------------ <#116bff9e8e61bdc2__ftnref1>* The author is a Fellow in Reproductive & Sexual Health and Women's Rights at the University of Toronto, Faculty of Law. oishik.sircar at utotonto.ca -- OISHIK SIRCAR Fellow in Reproductive & Sexual Health and Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 From ravig64 at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 23:59:15 2007 From: ravig64 at gmail.com (Ravi Agarwal) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 18:29:15 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The shotgun and the sniper In-Reply-To: <995a19920712090710i25c3bd2cm95efbefcef714d03@mail.gmail.com> References: <995a19920712090710i25c3bd2cm95efbefcef714d03@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <93C79383-F3AF-45E0-B730-028132E3589C@gmail.com> Hi Aman, Very interesting categorisation and imagary! Do let us know what you thought of the climate conference at bali, since you are obviously there. Especially how India continues to harp the 'poor' line internationally while following a 'poor be damned for now' policy at home. Also good to see a writing on environmental politics on the list! best ravi On Dec 9, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Aman Sethi wrote: "The time for silver bullets has passed," proclaimed Marc Stewart, "What we need is a Shotgun!" In his bright Bali shirt, Nike sneakers and Investment Banker haircut, Mr Stewart is the firm-handshaking, fist pumping, ever effusive all-American co-founder of Ecosecurities, a firm that specialises in developing and marketing carbon trading projects under the Clean Development Mechanism - CDM - of the Kyoto Protocol. With emission reductions under Kyoto less than a month away, Mr Stewart's firm is looking to extend its market capitalisation to far beyond its existing 40 million USD. The Ecosecurity model functions in the following way - they find and help develop projects in the developing world that is eligible for credit credits under the CDM, and then sell the credits in to firms in EU and across the orld that are looking to meet their Kyoto targets by offsetting excess emissions against carbon credits. Firms like Ecosecurities pushed the carbon market to 30 billion dollars in 2006; and if Annex 1 agrees to further emission cuts (25-40 per cent below 1992 by 2020) the potential size of the market is open to the most optimistic hyperbole. The "Shotgun Approach" suggested by Stewart was his response to the fact the Climate Change is a "reality that needs to be addressed NOW" - and that governments, international bodies and business would have to proceed on a rampage on all possible fronts simultaneously - sort of like the blunt double-barrelled, pump action shotguns freely available back home in America. The Shotgun approach was Mr Stewart's reason for opening up and extending carbon markets to as many sectors as possible - particularly Forestry. If we were to examine the shotgun metaphor in some detail, we find the shotgun is best known for its tremendous stopping power at short-ranges (say 40 per cent reduction in 10 years?), and the fact that on firing, the shot divides up into pellets, making it easy to hit small targets at some distance, allowing even inexperienced marksmen to use it with a fair degree of competency. And Mr Stewart is not the only one holding the shotgun. A week into the climate change conference, there seems to be a very interesting development paradigm emerging that is vaguely reminiscent of the AIDS approach to development. Under the adaptation and mitigation arms of Climate change - it is possible to embark on any number of projects in the guise of saving the planet. While "Saving the Poor" has clearly lost some of lustre on the funding markets, "Saving the Planet" seems to be bringing in some serious money from governments, donor bodies and private enterprise. The fact that climate shall hit everyone in end, and not just the "poor and vulnerable" (though it is routinely stressed that they shall be the worst hit) seems to have motivated some serious thinking. The first week at Bali has largely centred around the "tremendous opportunites presented by Climate Change." Thus you have sessions on "Climate Change and Gender", "Climate Change and Health", "Climate Change and the Millenium Development Goals", "Leadership and Climate Change", and my personal favourite "Climate Change and HIV/AIDS." Fire the Climate Change Shotgun and hit a whole collection of development indices - big ones at short ranges, small ones at longer ranges. The approach might just have some benefits - given the urgency of the problem (and yes, Climate Change is a real, serious, significant problem that has to be dealt with); groups working on thankless, under-funded projects like Malaria, disaster management, and drought relief might finally get the money they require - and all projects need to be "sexed up" to fit into donor spending agenda. What is interesting is the shift one sees from an earlier approach to development - which could be termed the "Sniper Approach" (My metaphor, not Mr Stewart's). The Sniper rifle, is a specialised rifle designed to maximise accuracy over long distances to hit precise targets. Thus, the Sniper Approach could be understood as a metaphor for highly decentralised specific schemes that target specific projects. These were much in vogue in the late nineties and continue to be applied in community level projects - where the approach is custom designed for the community in question and takes on board their specific needs. The Sniper approach was supposed to reduce system leakages, often using information technology and verification apparatus and was favoured by organisations like the World Bank to ensure that benefits of specific schemes were "targeted" (coincidentally a word that development agencies use a lot) at those that needed them the most. The idea was to introduce fiscal discipline in developing economies and ensure that the limited subsidies that were handed out went to the intended recipients. India's TPDS - or Targeted Public Distribution System - could be a useful example of such a scheme. Another one could be the Micro-credit intiatives and SHGs (Self Help Groups), so loved by one and all; but i suppose the fact that SHG's operate on small scales and ranges could call for Pistol/ Handgun Initiatives. One week into the conference, it is hard to tell what approach to take - perhaps one could take all three on board and step out battle-hardened and armed to the teeth. Personally, I find myself sympathetic to cause of the solar powered tazer : renewable, zero-emissions and allegedly non-lethal; always a good approach to saving the world. best a. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 01:54:34 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 20:24:34 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Resistance activities in Karachi this week In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5af37bb0712091224y141255b9i26a008e5aa772887@mail.gmail.com> fwd Please note time/date of People's Resistance activities this coming week in Karachi: MONDAY, Dec 10 - Human Rights Day being observed as a 'black day' by HRCP, PFUJ/KUJ and People's Resistance 4 pm, Karachi Press Club - wear black. TUESDAY, Dec 11 - - 'Live with Talat' - featuring Talat Hussain, & Nusrat Javeed & Mushtaq Minhas (Bolta Pakistan) - these are shows/hosts of shows banned by the govt. Karachi Press Club - 2.00- 4.00 pm sharp Confirmed guests include Justices (r) Wajihuddin Ahmed, Fakhruddin G. Ebrahim, Majida Rizvi & Rasheed Rizvi (Prez. SHCBA) and Noor Naz Agha. FRIDAY, Dec 14 - The big rally - Join us to demand the Restoration of the Judiciary & the Media and Revoke the PCO. 4.00 pm - Meet at Regal Chowk, end at Press Club. All organisations, parties and individuals who support these demands are welcome. Bring your friends. Register your protest. Thank you & see you there. In solidarity, and on behalf of People's Resistance Sophia, Awab, Sabeen, Noman, Urooj, Yasir, Uzma, Anis, Asad, Afiya, Naeem, Beena, .... (please add your name here and pass this email on to your friends - thank you) From radiofreealtair at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 02:37:42 2007 From: radiofreealtair at gmail.com (Anand Vivek Taneja) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:07:42 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] an interesting archival photo In-Reply-To: <002d01c83a7a$e33dd300$0501a8c0@yousufcc821f44> References: <002d01c83a7a$e33dd300$0501a8c0@yousufcc821f44> Message-ID: <8178da990712091307h5806791etfe389fff417138a4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yousuf, Interestingly, the 'Hindu' category is further subdivided, in this picture, into 'Hindu Striyon ke Liye' and 'Hindu PurushoN ke liye', a diffrentiation of gender which we don't see for 'Mohamadan' and 'General' categories. Anand On Dec 9, 2007 10:33 AM, Yousuf Saeed wrote: > I am attaching an archival photo of the Allahabad railway station > platform dating back to the British period (roughly 1920s) that I found on > an archive on Minnesota university library (Ames) website. Its a photo of a > newly opened "Indian Refreshment Room" at the station - the most striking > thing to notice is the separate rooms or doors for Hindus and Muslims! Some > doors which say Mohammadans or Ahle-Islam (in Urdu), while others say "Hindu > yatrion ke liye" (in Hindi). There's one door for "General" too, I guess for > others. There maybe something for British officers which is not seen here. > If this is one small example, I wonder what other formal divisions may have > existed in those days. And one wonders if such divisions were there in our > society for ever, or were they invented by the British. > Any comments > > Yousuf > > This image comes from: > http://digital.lib.umn.edu/IMAGES/reference/ames/amp00204 > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 10:24:47 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:54:47 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandit children hold protest rally on the eve of International Human Rights Day Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712092054n1cd70edan743254ec94ce9db1@mail.gmail.com> Check out... http://www.hindustantimes.com/PhotoGallery/Photos_Storypage.aspx?category=Internationalhumanrightsday Kashmiri Pandit children hold protest rally on the eve of International Human Rights Day to condemn the failure of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) to address the grievances of the Pandit community in New Delhi on Sunday, December 9, 2007. *"Footprints on the sands of time are not made by sitting down."* From tbd.lists at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 12:59:54 2007 From: tbd.lists at gmail.com (Dinesh, Servelots) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:29:54 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Dec 12, 13, 14: Technology, Governance, Citizenship meet, Bangalore In-Reply-To: <4573cd0e0710170225i38b5869fqf7b656dd98024774@mail.gmail.com> References: <4573cd0e0710170225i38b5869fqf7b656dd98024774@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4573cd0e0712092329i6c60fd6dj1c1a6b4e6348dcd1@mail.gmail.com> Technology, Governance and Citizenship 12th, 13th and 14th December, 2007 Indian Institute of Management, Bangalore Technology is central to new modes of governance, and to emerging definitions of citizenship, participation, and progress. As state functions get automated through e-governance, experiences get codified, and paradigms of knowledge production come under the digital eye, the notions of governance and citizenship are changing. This conference explores questions at the intersection of technology and society in contemporary India, bringing together researchers and practitioners from a wide range of technical and social scientific backgrounds. Its aim is not so much to reiterate the conventional definitions of development, technology, transparency, and governance, but to unpack the construction of these terms in a way that allows us to make sense of the new practices of governance, and of contemporary politics, law and citizenship. See the 3 day program and key participants of the workshop. http://janasu.org/tgc Dec 12th, 2007 The first day of the workshop will introduce case studies of projects in India that highlight the technical aspects of e-governance, providing a concrete basis for discussions. Dec 13th, 2007 The second day's presentations will explore the social and epistemological questions emerging out of e-governance architectures and their implementation. Dec 14th, 2007 On the final day of the workshop, speakers will attempt to articulate a broader platform of research into questions about the intersection of technology and society. Registration is now open. Again check out the link: http://janastu.org/tgc From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 15:35:35 2007 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:05:35 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Choking Off The Internet In Bangladesh Message-ID: Dear bloggers, we are asking all net hacktivists to join the campaign against the Crackdown & Monitoring of Internet in Bangladesh Here's what you can do. On your blog, add this image: http://rumiahmed.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/free_internet_bd.gif And link to this story: http://www.e-bangladesh.org/2007/10/03/crackdown-on-internet-users-in-bangladesh/ From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Dec 10 16:12:30 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (Shivam Vij) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:42:30 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindi Blog Writing Workshop Message-ID: <9c06aab30712100242p6fc5bc05rc1f9248c4854bc09@mail.gmail.com> Hindi Blog Writing Workshop Date: 11th December, 2007 Time: 2 to 5 pm Venue: Seminar Room, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi Today blogging has become an important tool of communication. Diverse things from ideas, analysis, critiques and memoirs to travelogues are all being written and shared through blogs. Blogs in Hindi are gradually becoming popular as writing in Hindi on the internet is no more a problem (there is a huge variety of tools to start with). But we still have to go a long way before Hindi blogs become much favoured, the main drawback being lack of knowledge among the public. The Hindi Blog Writing Workshop at Sarai-CSDS is an attempt to involve people who are interested in blogging in the world of Hindi and would like to learn more. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 10 17:05:44 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:35:44 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWN Dec 5, 2007) In-Reply-To: <344bb495cd1e1e5db560ed540a0ab391@sarai.net> Message-ID: <343828.66881.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha I found the article significant and that is why I posted it. Your spin on it is on a different track from mine. The significance, for me, was not in the contents which are well known and extensively commented upon but in who had written the piece (Mahir Ali - a Muslim) and where it was published (DAWN - a leading Pakistani newspaper). Mahir Ali also cuts through sectarian bias by being equally critical of such incidents in both Saudi Arabia and Iran. Admittedly, Mahir Ali being Sydney based might feel insulated from any backlash but it took courage from DAWN to publish. The well known (or notorious) Ayaan Hirsi Ali is much more strident (blasphemous indeed) in her castigation over the same incidents (and the Taslima Nasreen affair). In an Op-Ed piece in The New York Times she writes: """"""" It is often said that Islam has been “hijacked” by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates. But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done?""""""" She ends her opinion piece with the pointed admonition: """"""When a “moderate” Muslim’s sense of compassion and conscience collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking.""""" I thought Mahir Ali's article was one example of compassion and conscience taking precedence over anything else. I firmly believe that such introspection and correction in a society should be undertaken preferably from within (as by Mahir Ali or Ayaan Hirsi Ali) and 'outsiders' should not interfere. "Outsiders", very often, have a unidimensional understanding depending on who has been most successful in selling a viewpoint. There are enough "social" and "political" examples of such "mess created by outsiders" situations both within India and Internationally. Kshmendra Kaul http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/opinion/07ali.html?ei=5070&en=82ea8ff7f2fff4c9&ex=1197694800&emc=eta1&pagewanted=print Islam’s Silent Moderates By AYAAN HIRSI ALI The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2) IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up in horror. A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim herself to be guilty. Her crime is called “mingling”: when she was abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane. Two hundred lashes are enough to kill a strong man. Women usually receive no more than 30 lashes at a time, which means that for seven weeks the “girl from Qatif,” as she’s usually described in news articles, will dread her next session with Islamic justice. When she is released, her life will certainly never return to normal: already there have been reports that her brother has tried to kill her because her “crime” has tarnished her family’s honor. We also saw Islamic justice in action in Sudan, when a 54-year-old British teacher named Gillian Gibbons was sentenced to 15 days in jail before the government pardoned her this week; she could have faced 40 lashes. When she began a reading project with her class involving a teddy bear, Ms. Gibbons suggested the children choose a name for it. They chose Muhammad; she let them do it. This was deemed to be blasphemy. Then there’s Taslima Nasreen, the 45-year-old Bangladeshi writer who bravely defends women’s rights in the Muslim world. Forced to flee Bangladesh, she has been living in India. But Muslim groups there want her expelled, and one has offered 500,000 rupees for her head. In August she was assaulted by Muslim militants in Hyderabad, and in recent weeks she has had to leave Calcutta and then Rajasthan. Taslima Nasreen’s visa expires next year, and she fears she will not be allowed to live in India again. It is often said that Islam has been “hijacked” by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates. But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done? Usually, Muslim groups like the Organization of the Islamic Conference are quick to defend any affront to the image of Islam. The organization, which represents 57 Muslim states, sent four ambassadors to the leader of my political party in the Netherlands asking him to expel me from Parliament after I gave a newspaper interview in 2003 noting that by Western standards some of the Prophet Muhammad’s behavior would be unconscionable. A few years later, Muslim ambassadors to Denmark protested the cartoons of Muhammad and demanded that their perpetrators be prosecuted. But while the incidents in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and India have done more to damage the image of Islamic justice than a dozen cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, the organizations that lined up to protest the hideous Danish offense to Islam are quiet now. I wish there were more Islamic moderates. For example, I would welcome some guidance from that famous Muslim theologian of moderation, Tariq Ramadan. But when there is true suffering, real cruelty in the name of Islam, we hear, first, denial from all these organizations that are so concerned about Islam’s image. We hear that violence is not in the Koran, that Islam means peace, that this is a hijacking by extremists and a smear campaign and so on. But the evidence mounts up. Islamic justice is a proud institution, one to which more than a billion people subscribe, at least in theory, and in the heart of the Islamic world it is the law of the land. But take a look at the verse above: more compelling even than the order to flog adulterers is the command that the believer show no compassion. It is this order to choose Allah above his sense of conscience and compassion that imprisons the Muslim in a mindset that is archaic and extreme. If moderate Muslims believe there should be no compassion shown to the girl from Qatif, then what exactly makes them so moderate? When a “moderate” Muslim’s sense of compassion and conscience collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of “Infidel.” shuddha at sarai.net wrote: Dear Kshemendra, Thank you for this forward. Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan are indeed sad spectacles of the depths to which theocracies and dictatorships will descend. The recent sad spectacle of a kindergarten teacher having to go to prison because of the teddy bear episode in Sudan indicates the moral bankruptcy of islamist regimes. Incidentally, Indian public and private sector companies, especially in the Petro Chemicals sector are a big player in Sudan, even though the Sudanese state is implicated in gross abuses, especially in the Darfur region. I think that a concerted effort to expose the level of official and corporate Indian backing for corrupt Islamist regimes such as those that rule in Sudan would be timely. I think that the extent of influence that the Saudi regime has purchased in India (in cold hard cash) also needs to be thought about. I am sure that if tomorrow an Indian university decided to name its library after George Bush there would (rightly) be a furore, and yet, I was dismayed a few months ago to discover, that Jamia Millia Islamia (a university where I studied) had decided to name its library after the corrupt Saudi Monarch King Abdullah, who presides over the most sexist regime on earth. Every self respecting woman student of Jamia Millia Islamia should could consider herself personally insulted whenever she has to enter this library building. It is sad that no Indian newspaper or television channel has ever thought it necessary to send journalists to probe the extent to which the Indian state provides aid and succor to such brutal regimes and their clients, be they in Burma or in Sudan. regards Shuddha On 7:25 pm 12/08/07 Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Common sense under attack > By Mahir Ali > > http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mahir/arc-mahir.htm > > > WHEN she arrived in Khartoum four months ago, Gillian Gibbons > couldn’t possibly have had any inkling that she’d be headed back to > England some four months later, following a stint in prison. > > In a statement issued last Saturday, the incarcerated 54-year-old > Liverpudlian said she wasn’t keen to leave Sudan and would much rather > return to work. “The Sudanese people in general have been pleasant and > very generous,’’ she noted, “and I’ve had nothing but good > experiences during my four months here.” > > What makes the level of equanimity and goodwill remarkable is that > the previous day, following Friday prayers, there were mobs baying for > her blood, demanding that the 15-day prison sentence handed down by a > Khartoum court be upgraded to death by a firing squad. So, what exactly > did Gibbons do to inspire such demands for vengeance? > > Well, a month into her stint as a teacher at the Unity School, where > she was in charge of seven-year-olds, she came up with a device for > engaging the kids’ interest in one of the designated topics: bears. > One of the children brought her teddy bear to school and her classmates > were assigned the task of taking the teddy home, one by one, and > writing about their experiences. > > Before the project got underway, Gibbons asked the kids to choose a > name for the cuddly toy. There were various suggestions, including > Abdullah and Hassan. A little boy called Mohammad put forward his own > name for consideration. The teacher arranged a class vote and Mohammad > won hands down. She accepted the democratic verdict. Reasonably enough, > the idea that anyone would find this objectionable appears not to have > so much as crossed her mind. Two months later, police arrived at the > Unity compound to arrest Gibbons for insulting Islam. The school’s > director, Robert Boulos, was told that some parents had complained to > the ministry of education. It subsequently turned out that the sole > complainant was in fact an office assistant at the school, who served > as the main witness for the prosecution - or, to be more precise, > persecution. > > The verdict of 15 days in prison followed by deportation occasioned > sighs of relief, given that it could have been worse: six months in > prison and 40 lashes. At the weekend, two Muslim British peers were > engaged in negotiations with the Sudanese authorities in Khartoum, and > they were expected to fly back to London with Gibbons after obtaining a > presidential pardon. That’s all very well, but the point remains that > the only insult in this case - an insult to common sense, if not to > Islam - came from those who pursued a vendetta on patently absurd > grounds. It has been argued that Gibbons erred inadvertently, that as a > novice in Sudan she was unaware of cultural sensitivities. That’s an > unnecessarily patronising point of view; I suspect she erred only in > failing to make an allowance for the idiocy of some Muslims. It has > also been suggested that the Sudanese government stoked the controversy > in order to draw international attention away from the monumental > tragedy in Darfur. There may be some truth in that, but there’s > probably more logic in sheeting home the blame to sheer dogmatic > blockheadedness. > > An example of considerably more egregious judicial malice has, > meanwhile, surfaced in Saudi Arabia, where a victim of gang rape has > been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison. The supposed > logic behind this punishment illustrates the extent to which the > kingdom operates in a different time zone from much of the world - in > terms of centuries rather than hours. > > The unnamed, recently married 19-year-old, who has been dubbed the > Qatif girl in a reference to her mainly Shia hometown, apparently > wished to retrieve a photograph of herself from a former male > acquaintance before she moved in with her husband, so she arranged a > meeting with the young man. While the two of them were in a car, they > were accosted by a couple of men armed with knives, who took them to an > isolated area. The young woman was violated 14 times by seven men, > three of whom also raped her companion. > > When the case came before a Qatif court, the judges sentenced four of > the assailants to terms ranging up to five years for kidnapping, but > also sentenced the Qatif girl and her male friend to 90 lashes each for > the ‘crime’ of being in each other’s company. Her lawyer, a human > rights advocate by the name of Abdul-Rehman al-Lahem, filed an appeal > and also brought the case to the notice of the media. He was > consequently stripped of his licence, and his client’s sentence was > more than doubled to 200 lashes plus six months in prison. > > There are grounds for assuming that officially sanctioned crimes > against humanity along these lines are not exactly a rarity in Saudi > Arabia, although they don’t always attract international attention. > Queried on the subject during his Annapolis trip last week, Prince Saud > al-Faisal commented: “What is outraging about this case is that it is > being used against the Saudi government and its people.” In fact, what > is ‘outraging’ about this case is that the victims of an abominable > crime have been sentenced to humiliating and painful punishments on > utterly frivolous grounds, and that too on the basis of depositions by > their assailants. > > Such instances make it extremely difficult to take Islamic justice > seriously. The Saudi justice ministry has sought to malign the Qatif > girl by saying that she has confessed to having an extramarital affair > - which, apart from probably being untrue, is neither here nor there. > > The only hopeful signs in this context are al-Lahem’s endeavours, > plus the fact that the Qatif girl’s husband has chosen to serve as a > pillar of support instead of divorcing her. What’s more, at least a > couple of Saudi columnists have dared to raise their voices against > their nation’s system of injustice. Much of the West, meanwhile, > continues to court Riyadh as if it were a bastion of sanity and > stability in an otherwise turbulent region. > > Inanities in the name of Islam are not restricted to Sudan and Saudi > Arabia, of course. Pakistan frequently emerges as a venue for all > manner of excesses. Recent examples from a few neighbouring countries, > however, should suffice to bear out this contention. > > In Iran, 27-year-old Dr Zahra Baniyaghoub died while in the custody > of the morality and virtue police after she and her fiancé were > arrested for chatting to each other in a public park. The authorities > claimed she committed suicide, but Baniyaghoub’s family doesn’t > accept this explanation, evidently for very good reasons, and has > engaged the services of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Shirin Ebadi to > press for an inquiry. In India, Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen > continues to be hounded by Muslims for her supposed blasphemy, while in > Turkey Erol Karaaslan, the translator and publisher of Richard > Dawkins’ atheist treatise The God Delusion faces charges of inciting > religious hatred. > > Karaaslan is about as guilty as Gillian Gibbons. It should be clear > to even the meanest intelligence that the dimwits engaged in turning > molehills into mountains are doing a monumental disservice to the faith > they purport to uphold. > > The writer is a journalist based in Sydney. > > mahir.worldview at gmail.com > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 17:24:28 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:54:28 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Human Rights Day Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712100354va10fca5rd9f26206d3543f7f@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/%e2%80%98roots-in-kashmir%e2%80%99-condemns-nhrc-international-human-rights-groups/ From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 23:45:33 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:15:33 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Hazrat Ali's letter on inclusive governance In-Reply-To: <4d47f9660712090733u6b5ddfdl5221b1ed3a606a7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4d47f9660712090733u6b5ddfdl5221b1ed3a606a7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70712101015u12e737bfhd5daec16767bb643@mail.gmail.com> -------- http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/hazrat-alis-letter-on-inclusive-governance/ -- www.razarumi.com http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/yourgallery/artist_profile//37094.html ' -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 23:46:08 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:16:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Hazrat Ali's letter on inclusive governance In-Reply-To: <4d47f9660712090733u6b5ddfdl5221b1ed3a606a7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4d47f9660712090733u6b5ddfdl5221b1ed3a606a7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70712101016w7354ac33y29f4029e1490e0b3@mail.gmail.com> -------- http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/hazrat-alis-letter-on-inclusive-governance/ -- www.razarumi.com http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/yourgallery/artist_profile//37094.html ' -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From theunderscoredhood at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 00:49:23 2007 From: theunderscoredhood at gmail.com (theunderscoredhood at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:19:23 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Identify Yourself Gujarat! Message-ID: <00163646c7740440f378d15250127e96@google.com> Identify Yourself Gujarat!: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dd8kpvmr_11cp7gc3hg --- Note: Please circulate widely, especially in Gujarat. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 10:35:14 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 05:05:14 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Pakistan Airlines Advt in 1979 & 9/11 Attack : Coincidence ? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712102104v4d121d3ds7424613b15243395@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2006/09/17/pakistan-airlines-advt-in-1979-911-attack-coincidence/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 10:35:38 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 05:05:38 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Pakistan Airlines Advt in 1979 & 9/11 Attack : Coincidence ? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712102104v4d121d3ds7424613b15243395@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2006/09/17/pakistan-airlines-advt-in-1979-911-attack-coincidence/ From padmalatha.ravi at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 11:29:36 2007 From: padmalatha.ravi at gmail.com (Padmalatha Ravi) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 05:59:36 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] New online Magazine for women Message-ID: Hi, This is the beta version of the online magazine for women created by women http://justfemme.in/ It is meant to be a space to discuss all issues related to women. The authors are largely non journalists from all walks of life. The idea is to see if we can bring the issues to a wider audience. We are also attempting to break away from the usual Women's magazine template of beauty, cookery and relationship guidance. The site is yet to go the full length. We hope to develop the contents and style as we go. Regards -- Padma To unpathed waters, undreamed shores. From vishal.rawlley at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 12:20:58 2007 From: vishal.rawlley at gmail.com (Vishal Rawlley) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 06:50:58 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The shotgun and the sniper In-Reply-To: <93C79383-F3AF-45E0-B730-028132E3589C@gmail.com> References: <995a19920712090710i25c3bd2cm95efbefcef714d03@mail.gmail.com> <93C79383-F3AF-45E0-B730-028132E3589C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31d5ea920712102250n361f64f4m8d534fdada5aed3f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aman, You forgot to report on 'Divorce and Global Warming' so I thought that I shall fill in the lacuna. However, "Climate Change and HIV/AIDS", as you nominated, still retains the top spot as the most grave topic in this genre - never have two most serious issues been so carefully combined. See links for full report. Most Warmly, Vishal http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2983879.ece From The Sunday Times December 2, 2007 Planet feels heat of divorce Roger Waite UNHAPPY couples used to stick together for the sake of the kids. Now they can make the best of a bad marriage in the name of being environmentally friendly. Scientists have quantified for the first time the extent to which divorce damages the environment. The researchers found that the combined use of electricity across the two new households created rose 53% while water use was up by 42% http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,23636,22860297-31037,00.html Save your marriage, and the environment >From correspondents in Washington December 03, 2007 11:46am Article from: Reuters *INCREASING incidences of divorce around the world have a negative impact on the environment, leading to a less efficient use of energy and resources and bigger expenditures on utilities, a new study says.* http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59121 *Divorce* causes global warming? ------------------------------ Posted: December 10, 2007 1:00 a.m. Eastern As the thousands of attendees at the global warming conference in Bali did their part to create a self-fulfilling prophesy type situation by pumping almost 50,000 tons of carbon dioxideinto the atmosphere to get to and from the meeting, we found out that there is yet another item to add to the "things that cause global warming" laundry list (a list that includes "doing your laundry"): Divorce. Below are a few details from ABC Newsabout a Michigan State University study on how divorce contributes to global warming: Per person, divorced households spent more per month for electricity compared with a married household, as multiple people can be watching the same television, listening to the same radio, cooking on the same stove and eating under the same lights. That means some $6.9 billion in extra utility costs per year, Liu calculated, plus an added $3.6 billion for water, in addition to other costs such as land use. You and I have been being beaten over the head for destroying the ozonewith our gas-powered leaf blowers, SUVs and aerosol hairspray when the whole time it has been equally the fault of Liz Taylor and Larry King. On 12/9/07, Ravi Agarwal wrote: > > Hi Aman, > > Very interesting categorisation and imagary! Do let us know what you > thought of the climate conference at bali, since you are obviously > there. Especially how India continues to harp the 'poor' line > internationally while following a 'poor be damned for now' policy at > home. Also good to see a writing on environmental politics on the list! > > best > ravi > > > On Dec 9, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Aman Sethi wrote: > > "The time for silver bullets has passed," proclaimed Marc Stewart, > "What we need is a Shotgun!" In his bright Bali shirt, Nike sneakers > and Investment Banker haircut, Mr Stewart is the firm-handshaking, > fist pumping, ever effusive all-American co-founder of Ecosecurities, > a firm that specialises in developing and marketing carbon trading > projects under the Clean Development Mechanism - CDM - of the Kyoto > Protocol. With emission reductions under Kyoto less than a month away, > Mr Stewart's firm is looking to extend its market capitalisation to > far beyond its existing 40 million USD. The Ecosecurity model > functions in the following way - they find and help develop projects > in the developing world that is eligible for credit credits under the > CDM, and then sell the credits in to firms in EU and across the orld > that are looking to meet their Kyoto targets by offsetting excess > emissions against carbon credits. Firms like Ecosecurities pushed the > carbon market to 30 billion dollars in 2006; and if Annex 1 agrees to > further emission cuts (25-40 per cent below 1992 by 2020) the > potential size of the market is open to the most optimistic hyperbole. > > The "Shotgun Approach" suggested by Stewart was his response to the > fact the Climate Change is a "reality that needs to be addressed NOW" > - and that governments, international bodies and business would have > to proceed on a rampage on all possible fronts simultaneously - sort > of like the blunt double-barrelled, pump action shotguns freely > available back home in America. The Shotgun approach was Mr Stewart's > reason for opening up and extending carbon markets to as many sectors > as possible - particularly Forestry. > > If we were to examine the shotgun metaphor in some detail, we find the > shotgun is best known for its tremendous stopping power at > short-ranges (say 40 per cent reduction in 10 years?), and the fact > that on firing, the shot divides up into pellets, making it easy to > hit small targets at some distance, allowing even inexperienced > marksmen to use it with a fair degree of competency. And Mr Stewart is > not the only one holding the shotgun. A week into the climate change > conference, there seems to be a very interesting development paradigm > emerging that is vaguely reminiscent of the AIDS approach to > development. Under the adaptation and mitigation arms of Climate > change - it is possible to embark on any number of projects in the > guise of saving the planet. While "Saving the Poor" has clearly lost > some of lustre on the funding markets, "Saving the Planet" seems to be > bringing in some serious money from governments, donor bodies and > private enterprise. The fact that climate shall hit everyone in end, > and not just the "poor and vulnerable" (though it is routinely > stressed that they shall be the worst hit) seems to have motivated > some serious thinking. The first week at Bali has largely centred > around the "tremendous opportunites presented by Climate Change." Thus > you have sessions on "Climate Change and Gender", "Climate Change and > Health", "Climate Change and the Millenium Development Goals", > "Leadership and Climate Change", and my personal favourite "Climate > Change and HIV/AIDS." Fire the Climate Change Shotgun and hit a whole > collection of development indices - big ones at short ranges, small > ones at longer ranges. The approach might just have some benefits - > given the urgency of the problem (and yes, Climate Change is a real, > serious, significant problem that has to be dealt with); groups > working on thankless, under-funded projects like Malaria, disaster > management, and drought relief might finally get the money they > require - and all projects need to be "sexed up" to fit into donor > spending agenda. > > What is interesting is the shift one sees from an earlier approach to > development - which could be termed the "Sniper Approach" (My > metaphor, not Mr Stewart's). The Sniper rifle, is a specialised rifle > designed to maximise accuracy over long distances to hit precise > targets. Thus, the Sniper Approach could be understood as a metaphor > for highly decentralised specific schemes that target specific > projects. These were much in vogue in the late nineties and continue > to be applied in community level projects - where the approach is > custom designed for the community in question and takes on board their > specific needs. The Sniper approach was supposed to reduce system > leakages, often using information technology and verification > apparatus and was favoured by organisations like the World Bank to > ensure that benefits of specific schemes were "targeted" > (coincidentally a word that development agencies use a lot) at those > that needed them the most. The idea was to introduce fiscal discipline > in developing economies and ensure that the limited subsidies that > were handed out went to the intended recipients. India's TPDS - or > Targeted Public Distribution System - could be a useful example of > such a scheme. Another one could be the Micro-credit intiatives and > SHGs (Self Help Groups), so loved by one and all; but i suppose the > fact that SHG's operate on small scales and ranges could call for > Pistol/ Handgun Initiatives. > > One week into the conference, it is hard to tell what approach to take > - perhaps one could take all three on board and step out > battle-hardened and armed to the teeth. Personally, I find myself > sympathetic to cause of the solar powered tazer : renewable, > zero-emissions and allegedly non-lethal; always a good approach to > saving the world. > > best > a. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aman.am at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 12:59:55 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:29:55 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The shotgun and the sniper In-Reply-To: <31d5ea920712102250n361f64f4m8d534fdada5aed3f@mail.gmail.com> References: <995a19920712090710i25c3bd2cm95efbefcef714d03@mail.gmail.com> <93C79383-F3AF-45E0-B730-028132E3589C@gmail.com> <31d5ea920712102250n361f64f4m8d534fdada5aed3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <995a19920712102329n7c7d5addka3878781bf9c50ae@mail.gmail.com> Dear Ravi and Vishal, What has struck me now (though it should have earlier) is the fact that a big worry and legitimate worry among funded organisations and programmes is the worry that donors might suddenly shift funding form one grave problem to a graver sexier one. So often, issues might not be linked to Climate change to attract more funding - but maybe to protect existing projects that run the risk of being abruptly terminated just because something else caught the fancy of the donor. Which gives us something new to think about. best a. From hpp at vsnl.com Tue Dec 11 14:53:26 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:23:26 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] article on CPM culture Message-ID: <009301c83bd7$6e92c8e0$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Dear Friends I am copying below an article on CPI(M) culture that appears in today's Hindustan Times, by Ruchir Joshi. Best V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com ................ Lull salaam CPI(M) Bengal isn't like BJP Gujarat. Its rule has been far more exhaustively destructive, writes Ruchir Joshi. Lull salaam The other day Prakash Karat came to Calcutta and fired off a salvo in defence of his beleaguered comrades of the West Bengal CPI(M). Standing next to the Chief Minister, Karat took a swing at locals critical of his party and the state government: "Some people, including a section of intellectuals, said what is happening in Bengal is similar to what is happening in Gujarat. They have compared Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee to Narendra Modi and described both as fascists." These intellectuals, according to Karat, "are the enemy of the society and the country." I'm always hesitant to climb on to any bandwagon, and I've always had a Grouchovian allergy to all the various clubs of Bengali and Calcutta intellectuals. But in this instance I find myself running after the crowded bus marked 'Enemies of the Society'. If there are no seats on this jam-packed bus, I'm willing to stand, I'm willing to hang out from a door, risking life and limb like a proper Calcuttan, my fingers curled desperately around the dhoti, shirt-end or jhola of the nearest securely fastened buddhijibi. And as I cling on, let me shout out loud and clear so that there is no room for misunderstanding: the CPI(M) ruling Bengal are fascists. Okay, no. It's not fair to compare a thinking, erudite, witty man such as Buddha babu to Modi. Narendra Kasai oversaw the planning and execution of his 'pogramme'. He most likely gave instructions to his party goons to go and kill fellow Gujaratis. Buddha babu did no such thing. He never had any control of his cadres in the first place. He sat there at the centre of the bhadralok tier of the party from March to November, leafing through his books of prose and poetry while his goons let loose murder and rape on the people of Nandigram. In Gujarat, Modi played a blood-drenched 'one-day game' against his own people and the whole thing was over in a couple of months. In West Bengal, the CPI(M) has been playing a Test match of the old, limitless variety. They have spent the best part of 30 years eroding values, principles, justice, all solely for the greater glory of the party and its leaders. The Sangh parivar's modus operandi in Gujarat is quite different from the CPI(M)'s in Bengal and Calcutta - the organised, cold-blooded, clamp, grip and brutality of the party boys more closely resembles that of the Shiv Sena in Maharashtra and Bombay. In fact, you could argue that the Thackeray Thugs took the model from the CPI(M) across the 80s and early 90s, and that the Sena then tried to improve upon the original but failed, at least in terms of repeated election slam-dunks. For anybody involved in observing and documenting culture in West Bengal, the writing has been on the wall for as long as about two decades, and quite unmistakably from December 1992 onwards. The Left Front honeymoon that began in 1977 was long, unnaturally stretched by the return of Indira Gandhi and the resurgent fascism of the Congress and their death-bhangra with the Khalistanis; given ballast by the horror of the communal riots in Gujarat across the 80s; given flattering contrast by recurring incidents such as the massacre of working class Muslims by the Provincial Armed Constabulary in Meerut. But, as the rest of the country burned, as Kashmir became a suppurating mess, as Bofors cannoned into our consciousness followed by the after-blast of Mandal followed by the cancerous radiation of Hindutva, what the CPI(M) was doing in Bengal was quietly following a one-point agenda: making sure that no other satrap came within sniffing distance of political power for a generation. This was managed at a criminally huge cost - to cultures, both traditional and contemporary; to society, both rural and urban; and to any genuine braking system of conscience, across the state, class and communities. It is not a coincidence that there has come no great cinema out of Bengal since the CPI(M) took over: there was no money, no space for cinema, forget of dissent but even of quiet truth-telling of the kind Satyajit Ray strived for. It is no coincidence that the once vibrant Bangla theatre has shrivelled; nor that so many rural crafts traditions have died or face imminent extinction; nor that several rural performative traditions have met the same or worse fate as the ones in Rajasthan and Gujarat. If an art form didn't fit with the crude propagandist 'progressive aesthetic' of the Left, it wasn't going to be supported. If the tradition or innovation was subversive in any way, it had to be uprooted or starved of water till it died or mutated. Some of this was conscious, some of it just came from a cretinous disregard for the fine, fragile weave of memory and grace. Looking back, a Modi, a Thackeray, an Ayatollah or a Maoist Naxaliban couldn't have done a better job of burning down potentially rich rainforests of creative endeavour. In the communists' West Bengal of the 80s and 90s, Art, surreptitiously, became a Class Enemy. This was because real art is about disagreement, about holding up an accurate (though not necessarily realist) mirror, about taking risks and, in turn, about enticing people to think outside the box. The CPI(M) could not afford that. In 1977, the Left Front inherited a culturally damaged Bengal. Instead of working to resuscitate that culture, they raped it. It is from this violation that come the subsequent strippings and rapes of Birati and Bantola, and now of Nandigram. It all became, as it too often does, about the money that brings power and about the power that brings money. The people of the state, their multifarious needs, the principles upon which those needs could be met, all went out of the equation years ago. The worst elements, the jihadis and Hindutvats, were quietly coddled: "Within your community, you can do what you like," they were told, "build revanchist madrasas, fund the VHP, capture real estate, whatever. Just make sure you support us, vote for us, keep our coffers lined, we who give you this space, this private playground." And now, to each side this government throws scraps: to the millionaires they give the situation that throws up the body of Rizwanur Rahman; to the Muslim underclass they will now gift a missing person, a Taslima-shaped hole. In the meantime, we, the enemies of country and society, are expected not to point out the huge nexus between powerful people in the party and industrialists. We are expected to give the 'Lal Salaam' to anti-American rhetoric; we are expected to see Nandigram as a 'natural reaction'; we must now say that the rioting mobs of November 21, even though manipulated by the Opposition, had a genuine grievance. Oh, and yes, we have to accept that if we call both CPI(M) Bengal and BJP Gujarat fascist, we don't really understand the meaning of fascism. Ruchir Joshi is a writer and film-maker. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 14:58:25 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:28:25 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Hazrat Ali's letter on inclusive governance In-Reply-To: <47e122a70712101016w7354ac33y29f4029e1490e0b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <647843.39362.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Ali, son-in-law of Mohammed and the 4th Khalifa after Mohammed's death was one of Mohammed's finest Sahabas (companions). Ali is recorded as a fearless warrior and at the same time, during his lifetime at least, perhaps the most credible and respected voice on Islamic Jurisprudence. He functioned as the Chief Judge during the reign of Omar (2nd Khalifa). Many Sufi orders consider Ali as the First Sufi. Some of course credit Mohammed himself with that title. The quoted extracts are from a letter found in Nahajul Balagha which is a collection of Ali's Letters and Sermons. The full letter can be accessed at: http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/letter53.htm#letter53 Ali is also held responsible (by many) for creation of the Shia-Sunni divide amongst Muslims. He certainly is the font of and the central character in that continuing epic. Nahajul Balagha provides great insights into some of the foundations that led to the creation of the Shia and Sunni sects (albeit from the Shia point of view). The letters from Ali to Mu'awiya are especially interesting. Nahajul Balagha can be accessed at: http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/index.htm Kshmendra Kaul inder salim wrote: -------- http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/hazrat-alis-letter-on-inclusive-governance/ -- www.razarumi.com http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/yourgallery/artist_profile//37094.html ' -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From mrsg at vsnl.com Tue Dec 11 15:14:31 2007 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:44:31 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWNDec5, 2007) References: <343828.66881.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002301c83bda$65d3ae60$0201a8c0@MRAY> Muslim moderates! Why blame them? Where are the hordes of progressives, leftists, seculars, civil society wallas, 'buddhijibis', foreign funded NGOs of Kolkata. None came on the street to protest the expulsion of Taslima Nasrin and the vandalism by the muslim fundamentalists. Some has only given lip service in TV shows, some sociological description of Ripon street etc. etc.. No procession, no candle lighting - nothing this time. And a bunch of them are supporting the government in the name of 'governance'. After conquering Calcutta from the British for a brief period in 1756 Siraj ud Doulla, the last muslim ruler of Bengal, renamed it as 'Ali Nagar'. I suggest Calcutta renamed Kolkata should now again be called 'Ali Nagar". And the 'jimmis' there are then free to carry out their cultural-intellectual-academic exercises with permission from Imam of Tipu Sultan Mosque of Ali Nagar. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kshmendra Kaul" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWN Dec5,2007) > Dear Shuddha > > I found the article significant and that is why I posted it. Your spin on > it is on a different track from mine. > > The significance, for me, was not in the contents which are well known > and extensively commented upon but in who had written the piece (Mahir > Ali - a Muslim) and where it was published (DAWN - a leading Pakistani > newspaper). > > Mahir Ali also cuts through sectarian bias by being equally critical of > such incidents in both Saudi Arabia and Iran. Admittedly, Mahir Ali being > Sydney based might feel insulated from any backlash but it took courage > from DAWN to publish. > > The well known (or notorious) Ayaan Hirsi Ali is much more strident > (blasphemous indeed) in her castigation over the same incidents (and the > Taslima Nasreen affair). In an Op-Ed piece in The New York Times she > writes: > > """"""" It is often said that Islam has been “hijacked” by a small > extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims > are said to be moderates. > > But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the > terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing > to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner > of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said > it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no > longer be done?""""""" > > She ends her opinion piece with the pointed admonition: > > """"""When a “moderate” Muslim’s sense of compassion and conscience > collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. > Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful > thinking.""""" > > I thought Mahir Ali's article was one example of compassion and > conscience taking precedence over anything else. > > I firmly believe that such introspection and correction in a society > should be undertaken preferably from within (as by Mahir Ali or Ayaan > Hirsi Ali) and 'outsiders' should not interfere. "Outsiders", very often, > have a unidimensional understanding depending on who has been most > successful in selling a viewpoint. There are enough "social" and > "political" examples of such "mess created by outsiders" situations both > within India and Internationally. > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/opinion/07ali.html?ei=5070&en=82ea8ff7f2fff4c9&ex=1197694800&emc=eta1&pagewanted=print > > Islam’s Silent Moderates > By AYAAN HIRSI ALI > > The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of > them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a > matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. > (Koran 24:2) > > > IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen > Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up > in horror. > > A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been > abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim > herself to be guilty. Her crime is called “mingling”: when she was > abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or > marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was > sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane. > > Two hundred lashes are enough to kill a strong man. Women usually receive > no more than 30 lashes at a time, which means that for seven weeks the > “girl from Qatif,” as she’s usually described in news articles, will dread > her next session with Islamic justice. When she is released, her life will > certainly never return to normal: already there have been reports that her > brother has tried to kill her because her “crime” has tarnished her > family’s honor. > > We also saw Islamic justice in action in Sudan, when a 54-year-old > British teacher named Gillian Gibbons was sentenced to 15 days in jail > before the government pardoned her this week; she could have faced 40 > lashes. When she began a reading project with her class involving a teddy > bear, Ms. Gibbons suggested the children choose a name for it. They chose > Muhammad; she let them do it. This was deemed to be blasphemy. > > Then there’s Taslima Nasreen, the 45-year-old Bangladeshi writer who > bravely defends women’s rights in the Muslim world. Forced to flee > Bangladesh, she has been living in India. But Muslim groups there want her > expelled, and one has offered 500,000 rupees for her head. In August she > was assaulted by Muslim militants in Hyderabad, and in recent weeks she > has had to leave Calcutta and then Rajasthan. Taslima Nasreen’s visa > expires next year, and she fears she will not be allowed to live in India > again. > > It is often said that Islam has been “hijacked” by a small extremist > group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to > be moderates. > > But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the > terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing > to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner > of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said > it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no > longer be done? > > Usually, Muslim groups like the Organization of the Islamic Conference > are quick to defend any affront to the image of Islam. The organization, > which represents 57 Muslim states, sent four ambassadors to the leader of > my political party in the Netherlands asking him to expel me from > Parliament after I gave a newspaper interview in 2003 noting that by > Western standards some of the Prophet Muhammad’s behavior would be > unconscionable. A few years later, Muslim ambassadors to Denmark protested > the cartoons of Muhammad and demanded that their perpetrators be > prosecuted. > > But while the incidents in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and India have done more > to damage the image of Islamic justice than a dozen cartoons depicting the > Prophet Muhammad, the organizations that lined up to protest the hideous > Danish offense to Islam are quiet now. > I wish there were more Islamic moderates. For example, I would welcome > some guidance from that famous Muslim theologian of moderation, Tariq > Ramadan. But when there is true suffering, real cruelty in the name of > Islam, we hear, first, denial from all these organizations that are so > concerned about Islam’s image. We hear that violence is not in the Koran, > that Islam means peace, that this is a hijacking by extremists and a smear > campaign and so on. But the evidence mounts up. > > Islamic justice is a proud institution, one to which more than a billion > people subscribe, at least in theory, and in the heart of the Islamic > world it is the law of the land. But take a look at the verse above: more > compelling even than the order to flog adulterers is the command that the > believer show no compassion. It is this order to choose Allah above his > sense of conscience and compassion that imprisons the Muslim in a mindset > that is archaic and extreme. > > If moderate Muslims believe there should be no compassion shown to the > girl from Qatif, then what exactly makes them so moderate? > > When a “moderate” Muslim’s sense of compassion and conscience collides > with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that > happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking. > > Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident > scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of “Infidel.” > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net wrote: > Dear Kshemendra, > > Thank you for this forward. Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan are > indeed sad spectacles of the depths to which theocracies and dictatorships > will descend. The recent sad spectacle of a kindergarten teacher having to > go to prison because of the teddy bear episode in Sudan indicates the > moral > bankruptcy of islamist regimes. > > Incidentally, Indian public and private sector companies, especially in > the > Petro Chemicals sector are a big player in Sudan, even though the Sudanese > state is implicated in gross abuses, especially in the Darfur region. > > I think that a concerted effort to expose the level of official and > corporate Indian backing for corrupt Islamist regimes such as those that > rule in Sudan would be timely. I think that the extent of influence that > the Saudi regime has purchased in India (in cold hard cash) also needs to > be thought about. I am sure that if tomorrow an Indian university decided > to name its library after George Bush there would (rightly) be a furore, > and yet, I was dismayed a few months ago to discover, that Jamia Millia > Islamia (a university where I studied) had decided to name its library > after the corrupt Saudi Monarch King Abdullah, who presides over the most > sexist regime on earth. Every self respecting woman student of Jamia > Millia > Islamia should could consider herself personally insulted whenever she has > to enter this library building. > > It is sad that no Indian newspaper or television channel has ever thought > it necessary to send journalists to probe the extent to which the Indian > state provides aid and succor to such brutal regimes and their clients, be > they in Burma or in Sudan. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > On 7:25 pm 12/08/07 Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Common sense under attack >> By Mahir Ali >> >> http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mahir/arc-mahir.htm >> >> >> WHEN she arrived in Khartoum four months ago, Gillian Gibbons >> couldn’t possibly have had any inkling that she’d be headed back to >> England some four months later, following a stint in prison. >> >> In a statement issued last Saturday, the incarcerated 54-year-old >> Liverpudlian said she wasn’t keen to leave Sudan and would much rather >> return to work. “The Sudanese people in general have been pleasant and >> very generous,’’ she noted, “and I’ve had nothing but good >> experiences during my four months here.” >> >> What makes the level of equanimity and goodwill remarkable is that >> the previous day, following Friday prayers, there were mobs baying for >> her blood, demanding that the 15-day prison sentence handed down by a >> Khartoum court be upgraded to death by a firing squad. So, what exactly >> did Gibbons do to inspire such demands for vengeance? >> >> Well, a month into her stint as a teacher at the Unity School, where >> she was in charge of seven-year-olds, she came up with a device for >> engaging the kids’ interest in one of the designated topics: bears. >> One of the children brought her teddy bear to school and her classmates >> were assigned the task of taking the teddy home, one by one, and >> writing about their experiences. >> >> Before the project got underway, Gibbons asked the kids to choose a >> name for the cuddly toy. There were various suggestions, including >> Abdullah and Hassan. A little boy called Mohammad put forward his own >> name for consideration. The teacher arranged a class vote and Mohammad >> won hands down. She accepted the democratic verdict. Reasonably enough, >> the idea that anyone would find this objectionable appears not to have >> so much as crossed her mind. Two months later, police arrived at the >> Unity compound to arrest Gibbons for insulting Islam. The school’s >> director, Robert Boulos, was told that some parents had complained to >> the ministry of education. It subsequently turned out that the sole >> complainant was in fact an office assistant at the school, who served >> as the main witness for the prosecution - or, to be more precise, >> persecution. >> >> The verdict of 15 days in prison followed by deportation occasioned >> sighs of relief, given that it could have been worse: six months in >> prison and 40 lashes. At the weekend, two Muslim British peers were >> engaged in negotiations with the Sudanese authorities in Khartoum, and >> they were expected to fly back to London with Gibbons after obtaining a >> presidential pardon. That’s all very well, but the point remains that >> the only insult in this case - an insult to common sense, if not to >> Islam - came from those who pursued a vendetta on patently absurd >> grounds. It has been argued that Gibbons erred inadvertently, that as a >> novice in Sudan she was unaware of cultural sensitivities. That’s an >> unnecessarily patronising point of view; I suspect she erred only in >> failing to make an allowance for the idiocy of some Muslims. It has >> also been suggested that the Sudanese government stoked the controversy >> in order to draw international attention away from the monumental >> tragedy in Darfur. There may be some truth in that, but there’s >> probably more logic in sheeting home the blame to sheer dogmatic >> blockheadedness. >> >> An example of considerably more egregious judicial malice has, >> meanwhile, surfaced in Saudi Arabia, where a victim of gang rape has >> been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison. The supposed >> logic behind this punishment illustrates the extent to which the >> kingdom operates in a different time zone from much of the world - in >> terms of centuries rather than hours. >> >> The unnamed, recently married 19-year-old, who has been dubbed the >> Qatif girl in a reference to her mainly Shia hometown, apparently >> wished to retrieve a photograph of herself from a former male >> acquaintance before she moved in with her husband, so she arranged a >> meeting with the young man. While the two of them were in a car, they >> were accosted by a couple of men armed with knives, who took them to an >> isolated area. The young woman was violated 14 times by seven men, >> three of whom also raped her companion. >> >> When the case came before a Qatif court, the judges sentenced four of >> the assailants to terms ranging up to five years for kidnapping, but >> also sentenced the Qatif girl and her male friend to 90 lashes each for >> the ‘crime’ of being in each other’s company. Her lawyer, a human >> rights advocate by the name of Abdul-Rehman al-Lahem, filed an appeal >> and also brought the case to the notice of the media. He was >> consequently stripped of his licence, and his client’s sentence was >> more than doubled to 200 lashes plus six months in prison. >> >> There are grounds for assuming that officially sanctioned crimes >> against humanity along these lines are not exactly a rarity in Saudi >> Arabia, although they don’t always attract international attention. >> Queried on the subject during his Annapolis trip last week, Prince Saud >> al-Faisal commented: “What is outraging about this case is that it is >> being used against the Saudi government and its people.” In fact, what >> is ‘outraging’ about this case is that the victims of an abominable >> crime have been sentenced to humiliating and painful punishments on >> utterly frivolous grounds, and that too on the basis of depositions by >> their assailants. >> >> Such instances make it extremely difficult to take Islamic justice >> seriously. The Saudi justice ministry has sought to malign the Qatif >> girl by saying that she has confessed to having an extramarital affair >> - which, apart from probably being untrue, is neither here nor there. >> >> The only hopeful signs in this context are al-Lahem’s endeavours, >> plus the fact that the Qatif girl’s husband has chosen to serve as a >> pillar of support instead of divorcing her. What’s more, at least a >> couple of Saudi columnists have dared to raise their voices against >> their nation’s system of injustice. Much of the West, meanwhile, >> continues to court Riyadh as if it were a bastion of sanity and >> stability in an otherwise turbulent region. >> >> Inanities in the name of Islam are not restricted to Sudan and Saudi >> Arabia, of course. Pakistan frequently emerges as a venue for all >> manner of excesses. Recent examples from a few neighbouring countries, >> however, should suffice to bear out this contention. >> >> In Iran, 27-year-old Dr Zahra Baniyaghoub died while in the custody >> of the morality and virtue police after she and her fiancé were >> arrested for chatting to each other in a public park. The authorities >> claimed she committed suicide, but Baniyaghoub’s family doesn’t >> accept this explanation, evidently for very good reasons, and has >> engaged the services of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Shirin Ebadi to >> press for an inquiry. In India, Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen >> continues to be hounded by Muslims for her supposed blasphemy, while in >> Turkey Erol Karaaslan, the translator and publisher of Richard >> Dawkins’ atheist treatise The God Delusion faces charges of inciting >> religious hatred. >> >> Karaaslan is about as guilty as Gillian Gibbons. It should be clear >> to even the meanest intelligence that the dimwits engaged in turning >> molehills into mountains are doing a monumental disservice to the faith >> they purport to uphold. >> >> The writer is a journalist based in Sydney. >> >> mahir.worldview at gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! >> Search. _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne >> t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 15:53:37 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:23:37 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Common sense under attack - Mahir Ali (DAWN Dec 5, 2007) In-Reply-To: <343828.66881.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <344bb495cd1e1e5db560ed540a0ab391@sarai.net> <343828.66881.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0712110223mfbebbe8uaef237227e57b4da@mail.gmail.com> if you find it helpful please note their muslimness or nonmuslimness is irrelevant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_Action_Forum http://af.org.pk/mainpage.htm From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 16:54:11 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:24:11 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Mukto Mona Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712110324t449a9065rcc6733f5fb185e60@mail.gmail.com> http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/diganta_sarkar/kashmir.htm From amitabh at sarai.net Tue Dec 11 21:08:37 2007 From: amitabh at sarai.net (Amitabh Kumar) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:38:37 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] 4th Comic Book Reading. Message-ID: <4F1B355D-81FB-4F34-8D73-CE845B7E8DE7@sarai.net> Sarai-CSDS and the FIRC ( French Information Resource Center) are pleased to announce the 4th Comic Book Reading, ' Modern Heresies' by Sarnath Banerjee. The roots of the Comic Book form can be traced back to the 16th century 'execution' posters in England. Subsequently , it went on to grow into other such forms of reportage and advertising. These include the event reportage and illustrations used in the dailies (much before the half penny revolution) such as the police eyewitness accounts and the war diaries. This was how comics were born. Humour and Adventure / Fantasia later became styles/genres that defined the form. Blinding all other genres. Outside of the well-worn path of biography and autobiography,non-fiction has traditionally been one of the most frustratingly under-developed areas of the comics medium.In our times too Graphical Reportage and Documentary Comics to some is an oxymoron, as if comics and documentation in Graphical Reportage cancel each other out. We intend to question that. Sarnath Banerjee will be talking about reportage comics and comics that have been used as a tool for socio-political commentary and ethnography. Time: 5:30 p.m. Venue: Seminar Hall, 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines, Delhi. Sarai, unlike the urban legend floating around, is not between Pluto and Jupiter. There are very simple ways to reach Sarai. We are located in the Civil Lines area in North Delhi, close to Delhi University. You have to cross the ridge from Delhi University to get to Rajpur Road, where Sarai is located. Any bus that takes you to ‘Exchange Stores/ I.P. College/ Mall Road’ will also take you places from where Rajpur Road is a short distance. If you take an auto rickshaw or taxi from South Delhi or any other part of the city, the best thing to say is ‘Near Transport Authority, Underhill Road, Civil Lines, I.P. College’; most auto and taxi drivers know the Civil Lines ‘Authority’ well. We are two minutes away from this landmark. The quickest and easiest way to get to Sarai is to take the Delhi Metro, from Connaught Place (Rajiv Chowk) to Civil Lines, or to change at Kashmiri Gate and take the metro to Civil Lines. Get off at Civil Lines cross Shamnath Marg, get on to Underhill Road, walk (10 minutes) to the end of Underhill Road, where it meets Rajpur Road. Turn left, you will see Number 29, Rajpur Road soon (on your left). This is CSDS. Walk in, we are in the basement of the big white building behind the sunken lawn. (for details check: http://www.sarai.net/about-us/contact ) All are welcome!!! From amitabh at sarai.net Tue Dec 11 21:32:32 2007 From: amitabh at sarai.net (Amitabh Kumar) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:02:32 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] 4th Comic Book Reading. Message-ID: <4F1B355D-81FB-4F34-8D73-CE845B7E8DE7@sarai.net> Sarai-CSDS and the FIRC ( French Information Resource Center) are pleased to announce the 4th Comic Book Reading, ' Modern Heresies' by Sarnath Banerjee. The roots of the Comic Book form can be traced back to the 16th century 'execution' posters in England. Subsequently , it went on to grow into other such forms of reportage and advertising. These include the event reportage and illustrations used in the dailies (much before the half penny revolution) such as the police eyewitness accounts and the war diaries. This was how comics were born. Humour and Adventure / Fantasia later became styles/genres that defined the form. Blinding all other genres. Outside of the well-worn path of biography and autobiography,non-fiction has traditionally been one of the most frustratingly under-developed areas of the comics medium.In our times too Graphical Reportage and Documentary Comics to some is an oxymoron, as if comics and documentation in Graphical Reportage cancel each other out. We intend to question that. Sarnath Banerjee will be talking about reportage comics and comics that have been used as a tool for socio-political commentary and ethnography. Time: 5:30 p.m. Venue: Seminar Hall, 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines, Delhi. Sarai, unlike the urban legend floating around, is not between Pluto and Jupiter. There are very simple ways to reach Sarai. We are located in the Civil Lines area in North Delhi, close to Delhi University. You have to cross the ridge from Delhi University to get to Rajpur Road, where Sarai is located. Any bus that takes you to ‘Exchange Stores/ I.P. College/ Mall Road’ will also take you places from where Rajpur Road is a short distance. If you take an auto rickshaw or taxi from South Delhi or any other part of the city, the best thing to say is ‘Near Transport Authority, Underhill Road, Civil Lines, I.P. College’; most auto and taxi drivers know the Civil Lines ‘Authority’ well. We are two minutes away from this landmark. The quickest and easiest way to get to Sarai is to take the Delhi Metro, from Connaught Place (Rajiv Chowk) to Civil Lines, or to change at Kashmiri Gate and take the metro to Civil Lines. Get off at Civil Lines cross Shamnath Marg, get on to Underhill Road, walk (10 minutes) to the end of Underhill Road, where it meets Rajpur Road. Turn left, you will see Number 29, Rajpur Road soon (on your left). This is CSDS. Walk in, we are in the basement of the big white building behind the sunken lawn. (for details check: http://www.sarai.net/about-us/contact ) All are welcome!!! _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From rana at ranadasgupta.com Tue Dec 11 22:19:28 2007 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:49:28 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The new anti-pornography bill in Indonesia Message-ID: <475EBF27.7000605@ranadasgupta.com> this from a friend of mine in jakarta. indonesian islamists have tried unsuccessfully before to pass a ban on certain kinds of female clothing and on "pornographic" images or text. they are making another effort now. the revised anti-porn bill proposes banishment for porn offenders to remote areas for 1 to 15 years. The following article gives some details. R The Jakarta Post - Opinion News - Tuesday, December 11, 2007 A swinging anti-pornography bill Leon Agusta, Jakarta After a disappearance from public attention, the anti-pornography bill has now resurfaced with the new name "Anti-Pornography Bill", when several factions in the House of Representatives, in particular the Prosperous Justice Party (PKS), United Development Party (PPP), and Golkar -- after initially questioning it, sent on the bill without the required approval of a plenary session to the government executives for further study. Other factions had held a critical stance from the beginning, such as the Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI-P), National Awakening Party (PKB), and the National Mandate Party (PAN), were not given the opportunity to put forward their opinions. In terms of legal procedure, the bill is flawed. Thus we need to ask: Why were these factions so anxious to hand the bill over to the executive body that they actually broke the rules? The definition of pornography according to the bill says: "Pornography is any man-made work that includes sexual materials in the form of drawings, sketches, illustrations, photographs, text, sound, moving pictures, animation, cartoons, poetry, conversation, or any other form of communicative messages; it also may be shown through the media in front of the public; it can arouse lust and lead to the violation of normative values within society; and it can also cause the development of pornographic acts within society". In regard to exceptions, the bill stipulates that: "... it does not include the making, the distribution, and the use of pornography for a) sexual dysfunctions therapy, b) art and cultural performances, and c) customary and traditional rituals". During a discussion, organized by a private radio station in Jakarta last week, poet W.S. Rendra asserted that: "The bill displays a crisis of common sense. It is against Pancasila (Five Principles ideology), and there is no existing law that calls for it. It is against the principles of social justice and the sovereignty of the people. ... The Pornography Bill is culturally dangerous. Anything that cannot be defined with clarity should never be turned into a binding law. Pornography should be left within the territory of morality and religions-not some act. The Pornography Bill is flawed as it neglects the codes of morality and the codes of religions." Having heard Rendra's words regarding the potential dangers of the bill once it is approved, some said, "It would be great to see him speak during a parliamentary session". "Would that be possible?" Speaking in the same forum, Sinta Nuriyah Abdurrahman Wahid also underlined the dangers of this bill. "The bill is politics-ridden; it is a political agenda. It might be used to justify repressive conduct. As a woman I don't feel protected. As a woman I actually feel under threat. What they should've done is maximize the implementation of laws and other legal acts that we already have instead of turning the law into some kind of commodity," she said. At Taman Ismail Marzuki, a home shared by artists, last Nov. 28, the reaction toward the bill was unanimous acrimony. Marco Kosumawijaya, the executive of the Jakarta Arts Council, strongly objected to the Pornography Bill. "The reasoning behind the bill is ambiguous..." According to Marco, to put bodily expressions in the arts, culture, and customs under the same category as pornography is blasphemy toward the arts, culture, and customs themselves. Would the respectable members of the legislature be willing to take the reactions of the people into consideration during their final sessions on the bill?" It is hard to tell (or is it?). Apparently, it will take some time before any side can win this battle. It is also apparent that it is highly possible that if the controversy becomes too extensive, the whole matter will one day make its way into the Constitutional Court. It is hard to believe that this country can give birth to such a bill. It is inevitable that some might get the impression that the House of Representatives, or at least the Pornography Bill Special Committee, is intentionally sowing the seeds of catastrophe in this nation. This is terrifying! Why can't they see this? What is really going on in that house of voices? Leon Agusta is a poet From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 23:42:13 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:12:13 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Essay on the Kashmiri poet :Ahad Zarger's vachun Message-ID: <47e122a70712111012h56890c22if6aef97a6310d492@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aranab As promised in Delhi, I am forwarding some passages of an essay written by Dr, M. Maroof Shah published in 'The Journal of Kashmir Studies' ( university of Kashmir , Srinagar ). The essay is titled The Crises of Western Humanism: A sufi response of Ahad Zargar. No doubt about the fact that sufi poetry is running in the veins of average Kashmiri, but the celebration of this particular poet in Kashmir tells us a different story about Kashmir and its approach to love life and spirituality. Not only the song is available in the market ( sung by noted singer Abdul Rashid Hafiz) but every year ' sham-e-Zarger is still celebrated in the heart of srinagar by numersou lovers of zargar sahib. My performance: From Lal Ded to Ahad Zargar at LTG Gallery on 4th of Dec. was part celebration part introduction to the poet outside Kashmir. I believe, any discussion on Ahad Zarger and other sufi poets automatically deconstructs the ill-orchestrated fundamentalist face of average Kashmiri. ( the original poem in Kashmiri is published as well ) Abastract: The present paper attempts a critical appraisal of Secular Western Humansim from a Sufiistic perspective. While highlighting the divergence between Sufisim and Secular anthropocentric humanism it argues how the Sufi image of man as presented in one of the Vachuns ( song) Zargar appropriates and moves beyond humanistic conceptions of human dignity and gives it a metaphysical foundation. Introduction: Secular humanism of the Modern West arose as a protest against medieval metaphysics and scholasticism, a revolt against theocentricism of the traditional man. The Greeks are its progenitors. Believing in the dignity of the individual, unlimited progress of mankind, making this earth a heaven and earthly perfectionism it has however failed to deliver. Serving all ties with the transcendence and focusing its gaze on the earth and man's earthly vacation and destiny it idolized reason and science. However it was Nietzsche who sensed fissures in this philosophy and with the advent of structuralism and post structuralism and postmodernism humanism has ben challenged. The metanarrative of humanism has been indeed discredited as secular scientific metanarrative has got problematized. Absurdist nihilist relativist skeptical mood of modern and post modern literature is an evidence of the failure of the humanstic ideology. The question is whether there is still any hope for man, any way to affirm his dignity, any means to make man realize the perfection that early humanistic had dreamed of ? Is there any consolation for man? Sufisim answers in the affirmative and for this it rejects fundamental metaphysical assumptions of humanism in all its varieties such as Huxley's theological humanism or scientific humanism and Marxist humanism. Here we attempt to trace Sufi appropriation of humansitics ideal in one of the vachuns ( song ) of Ahad Zargar, a twentieth century Sufi Poet of Kashmir. Sufisim while rejecting secular anthropocentric scientific humanism of the West affirms the dignity of man, integrates him with the universe, gives him meaning and purpose, grounds values of truth, beauty and goodness and dispels skeptical challenge through mystical and metaphysical realization in gnosis. Characteristics of Western Humansim: Sufism and Humanism : All that is really positive in humanism is appropriated by Mysticism. If humanist wants to be no less than God, to safeguard human dignity, unity and freedom and expand his frontiers of knowledge to the level of omniscience, to be the pole of existence, to appropriate everything in the heavens and the earth ( macrocosmos ) in micorcosmos, to conquer space and time, to know the unlimate truth, the Origin and the End, to soar high and " scan" God to be in the heaven of his own making, to celebrate beauty and goodness , then Sufi like Ahad Zargar is the model worth emulating. Western humanism, despite its grand claims miserably to deliver it promises and ends in absurdism and pessimism and culminates in the death of man. Modern and post modern man has reached the blind end of the road of negation and does not know how to affirm. He knows on la as Iqbal puts it. Zargar and Sufi Humanism Zargar in the above quoted verses asserts that Man ( as far as he appropriates/ is appropriated by the Spirit that is not his but is in him ) is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Omnipotent and the only existent. He is the most precious treasure, the revealer of the hidden treasure that is God,. Knowing the sipar of the self one knows, rather experiences God, the Absolute. And this necessitates transcendence of what Kierkegaard calls the ethical stage of man. Through negation he affirms as the Islamic Shahadah demands. He transcends man to become superman ( not the super of Nietzsche although he reembles him in certain respects ) or tires to approximate the perfect man who is beyond good and evil as he becomes the very goodness. He is in a state whether where neither haram nor halal entereth. The humanist is unable to transcend merely human state and thus he is denied perfection of the divine. He is unable to transcend the state of Abduhu. He can not be granted miraj, and he can not see what maqam-i-mahmood is. The Sufi sees no duality. His eyes become God's eye and his hands become the Beloved's hands. He has obliterated his ego so that God could be reflected in him. He is no more merely human as he has crossed the dark night of the soul and as he is as perfect as his father in heaven. He can not be characterized as this or that as his path is pathless and his track trackless in that transcendence of wara-ul-wara. He is no more a wave in the oceans as he is gone in fana and achieved the baqa by partaking of the ocean, by becoming the ocean. That is why he could say that he has fashioned Adam and breathed life into him. The mystic is not a moral man in the usual legalist sense of the term. In that metaethical transcendence, transcendence of the what Guenon calls moralism, which is prerogative law even through not being abolished is transcended nonetheless. Law is made for man and not vice versa and Jesus would say. The sufi discovers law within himself. He does not see it as an imposition from without. The believer's heart is thr real authority, the real judge of halal and haram. Real mufti is within. That is why the Sufi lives outside the realm of ethics but in the plane of morality. The Sufi is the supremely moral mean as he has not lustful self, no separative ego to choose good or bad. He has so totally surrendered that God's will becomes his will. He is beyond Good and Evil, in a state where the very question of haram and hala doesn't exist. The Sufi by scenting unity has passed beyond the duality of sugar and poison as Rumi say. Man becomes the light , a law unto himself. He is his own imam as Love is his imamand that makes him bandaay azad to use Iqbalian phrase. Love is God for the Sufi and love is above law. Qyam and sujud and bayhazoor unless Ishq is the imam as Iqbal reminds us. The sufi renounces everthing--- all clinging and all attachments and desires so he can dispense with awalad ( son ) Love transforms all relationships and life becomes blissful, orgasmic. Love kills death and thus life and death become mingled. This is what Zargar perhaps means by zindi kari mordus saeth souhbat. The universe is Self's manifestation. There is nothing outside the self. Love is not timeless for him. His love is sham love. The other is hell for him. There is no other for Sufi, as there is no I and Thou in the river of Wahdat. When one loves the self by experiencing love all sorrow disappears. Thre is no more the dominion of evil and suffering. Everything becomes divine. The earth becomes heaven. The ego cant exist when there is love. So the humanist is not willing to relinquish the eo or self. So he can not be clothed by the divine self or love. That is why love has disappeared from the modern world. There is no Boddhisatva in sight. That is moder humanist literature mourns the death of God and of Love. There is no bliss in things finite as one of the Upanisadic rishis says. The Quran also says Ala hi zikrillahi tatmainal qualoob. That is why modern literature is plagues by pessimism and absurdism. Kashmiri literature especially the mystical literature knows nothing of alienation, exile and consequent pessimism. The pir-i-waer/rishiwaer ( valley of saints ) in Kashmir knows nothing of it. Mystical sensibilities can not coexist with despair and alienation of any kind. Humansim takes alienation for granted and can not do anything about it as God who is the principe of dealienation is not living or felt reality for it. Despair is Kufu as the Quran says. The sufi celebrates love and beauty. As he sees nothing by God everywhere he is always blissful as God is Ananda, Bliss. Western Humanism has created wastelands and desertes because it has deprived man of God who is chasmati Haywaan. Zargar minces no words in condemining faqehai kur zouq, zahid and mullah. Misli dushman zahid fasi din. Religion is song, celebration, ecstasy, love, beauty, Exoterism is precisely the opposite. So a sufi can not be but scared of it. That is why he takes allegory, symbolism and poetry. There is no humanist writer in Kashmir at least until the twentieth century because traditional Kashmiri writer is steeped in mystical and religious lore. To call Lall or Sheikh-ul-allam a humanist is totally unwarranted given the past history of the humanism, especially its use by philosophers and historians. Humansim even if it believes in God is not acceptable in the religious context of sufism. Conclusion >From the analysis of Ahad Zargar's vachun we see that Sufism by transcending the finitude and limitation of the empirical self and individual through fana attains subsistence ( baqa) in God, the round of triple values of goodness, truth and beauty. Man is affirmed and his divinity and perfection ensured. The empirical self dies so that man realizes the immortal self that is characterized as Existence, Consciousness and Bliss. By appropriatieng the divine akhlaq or attributes the Sufi makes man a Godman, the perfect man, the heir of the kingdomof God. He sings the song of life, larger life as his consciousness transcends the fetters of space and time. He becomes the bird of lamakan. The poem: Vanquish the void, soul's text reads, in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. The enlightened knows the meaning of codes. While you live, conjugate with the male, let him have the bliss of passion; male and female are but a gamble of union. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. The one you have your spouse by contract, cherish mouthfuls of her bosom' milk; do not get fuddled up by others' gossip. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. Discern the sign and slay you father, and marry the one you gave you birth; exile you brother to some alien land. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. Boldly dismember your child's body, throw the piece into the gushing spate; if you dare, then savour the flesh. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. Declare the profane sacred by one word, and bow in prayer where there is no Qibla; follow the infidel as you Imam. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. Hang the abstinent treat him as your foe, and slaughter all those who profess faith, first you burn down the prayer house. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. I gave life to the clay model And named it human being I gave birth to Prophet and his words Almighty itself shone because of me. I alone am the centre, I am the circle, I alone am permeating all form of being; all forms do emanate from my own-most being. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. Be one special and escape the concierge, multitudes are beguiled by undesired thought; dare to stone the angels of heavens. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. I unravel the secret to the discerning ones, the mindless hone their steel arrows; Ahad Zargar thus composed this venomous song. in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. with love is -- From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 09:13:27 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 03:43:27 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Essay on the Kashmiri poet :Ahad Zarger's vachun In-Reply-To: <47e122a70712111012h56890c22if6aef97a6310d492@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70712111012h56890c22if6aef97a6310d492@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120712111943q7d7f1469qedb137aea99def8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder, I thank you for sharing this piece with us.I would be grateful if you could tell me the name of the album in which this poem is sung by Rashid Hafiz. Incidentally this was one of Zargar's first poems for which he even had to face Fatwa.Nonetheless it remains a milestone in Kashmiri poetry. Thanks once again. May God be with you. Rashneek On 12/11/07, inder salim wrote: > > Dear Aranab > > As promised in Delhi, I am forwarding some passages of an essay > written by Dr, M. Maroof Shah published in 'The Journal of Kashmir > Studies' ( university of Kashmir , Srinagar ). The essay is titled The > Crises of Western Humanism: A sufi response of Ahad Zargar. > > No doubt about the fact that sufi poetry is running in the veins of > average Kashmiri, but the celebration of this particular poet in > Kashmir tells us a different story about Kashmir and its approach to > love life and spirituality. Not only the song is available in the > market ( sung by noted singer Abdul Rashid Hafiz) but every year ' > sham-e-Zarger is still celebrated in the heart of srinagar by numersou > lovers of zargar sahib. My performance: From Lal Ded to Ahad Zargar at > LTG Gallery on 4th of Dec. was part celebration part introduction to > the poet outside Kashmir. I believe, any discussion on Ahad Zarger and > other sufi poets automatically deconstructs the ill-orchestrated > fundamentalist face of average Kashmiri. > > ( the original poem in Kashmiri is published as well ) > > Abastract: The present paper attempts a critical appraisal of Secular > Western Humansim from a Sufiistic perspective. While highlighting the > divergence between Sufisim and Secular anthropocentric humanism it > argues how the Sufi image of man as presented in one of the Vachuns ( > song) Zargar appropriates and moves beyond humanistic conceptions of > human dignity and gives it a metaphysical foundation. > > Introduction: > > Secular humanism of the Modern West arose as a protest against > medieval metaphysics and scholasticism, a revolt against > theocentricism of the traditional man. The Greeks are its progenitors. > Believing in the dignity of the individual, unlimited progress of > mankind, making this earth a heaven and earthly perfectionism it has > however failed to deliver. Serving all ties with the transcendence and > focusing its gaze on the earth and man's earthly vacation and destiny > it idolized reason and science. However it was Nietzsche who sensed > fissures in this philosophy and with the advent of structuralism and > post structuralism and postmodernism humanism has ben challenged. The > metanarrative of humanism has been indeed discredited as secular > scientific metanarrative has got problematized. Absurdist nihilist > relativist skeptical mood of modern and post modern literature is an > evidence of the failure of the humanstic ideology. The question is > whether there is still any hope for man, any way to affirm his > dignity, any means to make man realize the perfection that early > humanistic had dreamed of ? Is there any consolation for man? Sufisim > answers in the affirmative and for this it rejects fundamental > metaphysical assumptions of humanism in all its varieties such as > Huxley's theological humanism or scientific humanism and Marxist > humanism. Here we attempt to trace Sufi appropriation of humansitics > ideal in one of the vachuns ( song ) of Ahad Zargar, a twentieth > century Sufi Poet of Kashmir. Sufisim while rejecting secular > anthropocentric scientific humanism of the West affirms the dignity of > man, integrates him with the universe, gives him meaning and purpose, > grounds values of truth, beauty and goodness and dispels skeptical > challenge through mystical and metaphysical realization in gnosis. > Characteristics of Western Humansim: > > Sufism and Humanism : > > All that is really positive in humanism is appropriated by Mysticism. > If humanist wants to be no less than God, to safeguard human dignity, > unity and freedom and expand his frontiers of knowledge to the level > of omniscience, to be the pole of existence, to appropriate everything > in the heavens and the earth ( macrocosmos ) in micorcosmos, to > conquer space and time, to know the unlimate truth, the Origin and the > End, to soar high and " scan" God to be in the heaven of his own > making, to celebrate beauty and goodness , then Sufi like Ahad Zargar > is the model worth emulating. Western humanism, despite its grand > claims miserably to deliver it promises and ends in absurdism and > pessimism and culminates in the death of man. Modern and post modern > man has reached the blind end of the road of negation and does not > know how to affirm. He knows on la as Iqbal puts it. > > Zargar and Sufi Humanism > Zargar in the above quoted verses asserts that Man ( as far as he > appropriates/ is appropriated by the Spirit that is not his but is in > him ) is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the > Omnipotent and the only existent. He is the most precious treasure, > the revealer of the hidden treasure that is God,. Knowing the sipar of > the self one knows, rather experiences God, the Absolute. And this > necessitates transcendence of what Kierkegaard calls the ethical stage > of man. Through negation he affirms as the Islamic Shahadah demands. > He transcends man to become superman ( not the super of Nietzsche > although he reembles him in certain respects ) or tires to approximate > the perfect man who is beyond good and evil as he becomes the very > goodness. He is in a state whether where neither haram nor halal > entereth. The humanist is unable to transcend merely human state and > thus he is denied perfection of the divine. He is unable to transcend > the state of Abduhu. He can not be granted miraj, and he can not see > what maqam-i-mahmood is. The Sufi sees no duality. His eyes become > God's eye and his hands become the Beloved's hands. He has obliterated > his ego so that God could be reflected in him. He is no more merely > human as he has crossed the dark night of the soul and as he is as > perfect as his father in heaven. He can not be characterized as this > or that as his path is pathless and his track trackless in that > transcendence of wara-ul-wara. He is no more a wave in the oceans as > he is gone in fana and achieved the baqa by partaking of the ocean, by > becoming the ocean. That is why he could say that he has fashioned > Adam and breathed life into him. > > > The mystic is not a moral man in the usual legalist sense of the term. > In that metaethical transcendence, transcendence of the what Guenon > calls moralism, which is prerogative law even through not being > abolished is transcended nonetheless. Law is made for man and not vice > versa and Jesus would say. The sufi discovers law within himself. He > does not see it as an imposition from without. The believer's heart > is thr real authority, the real judge of halal and haram. Real mufti > is within. That is why the Sufi lives outside the realm of ethics but > in the plane of morality. The Sufi is the supremely moral mean as he > has not lustful self, no separative ego to choose good or bad. He has > so totally surrendered that God's will becomes his will. He is beyond > Good and Evil, in a state where the very question of haram and hala > doesn't exist. The Sufi by scenting unity has passed beyond the > duality of sugar and poison as Rumi say. Man becomes the light , a law > unto himself. He is his own imam as Love is his imamand that makes him > bandaay azad to use Iqbalian phrase. Love is God for the Sufi and > love is above law. Qyam and sujud and bayhazoor unless Ishq is the > imam as Iqbal reminds us. The sufi renounces everthing--- all > clinging and all attachments and desires so he can dispense with > awalad ( son ) Love transforms all relationships and life becomes > blissful, orgasmic. Love kills death and thus life and death become > mingled. This is what Zargar perhaps means by zindi kari mordus > saeth souhbat. The universe is Self's manifestation. There is nothing > outside the self. Love is not timeless for him. His love is sham love. > The other is hell for him. There is no other for Sufi, as there is no > I and Thou in the river of Wahdat. When one loves the self by > experiencing love all sorrow disappears. Thre is no more the dominion > of evil and suffering. Everything becomes divine. The earth becomes > heaven. The ego cant exist when there is love. So the humanist is not > willing to relinquish the eo or self. So he can not be clothed by the > divine self or love. That is why love has disappeared from the modern > world. There is no Boddhisatva in sight. That is moder humanist > literature mourns the death of God and of Love. There is no bliss in > things finite as one of the Upanisadic rishis says. The Quran also > says Ala hi zikrillahi tatmainal qualoob. That is why modern > literature is plagues by pessimism and absurdism. Kashmiri literature > especially the mystical literature knows nothing of alienation, exile > and consequent pessimism. The pir-i-waer/rishiwaer ( valley of saints > ) in Kashmir knows nothing of it. Mystical sensibilities can not > coexist with despair and alienation of any kind. Humansim takes > alienation for granted and can not do anything about it as God who is > the principe of dealienation is not living or felt reality for it. > Despair is Kufu as the Quran says. The sufi celebrates love and > beauty. As he sees nothing by God everywhere he is always blissful as > God is Ananda, Bliss. Western Humanism has created wastelands and > desertes because it has deprived man of God who is chasmati Haywaan. > > > Zargar minces no words in condemining faqehai kur zouq, zahid and > mullah. Misli dushman zahid fasi din. Religion is song, celebration, > ecstasy, love, beauty, Exoterism is precisely the opposite. So a sufi > can not be but scared of it. That is why he takes allegory, symbolism > and poetry. > > There is no humanist writer in Kashmir at least until the twentieth > century because traditional Kashmiri writer is steeped in mystical and > religious lore. To call Lall or Sheikh-ul-allam a humanist is totally > unwarranted given the past history of the humanism, especially its use > by philosophers and historians. Humansim even if it believes in God is > not acceptable in the religious context of sufism. > > Conclusion > > From the analysis of Ahad Zargar's vachun we see that Sufism by > transcending the finitude and limitation of the empirical self and > individual through fana attains subsistence ( baqa) in God, the round > of triple values of goodness, truth and beauty. Man is affirmed and > his divinity and perfection ensured. The empirical self dies so that > man realizes the immortal self that is characterized as Existence, > Consciousness and Bliss. By appropriatieng the divine akhlaq or > attributes the Sufi makes man a Godman, the perfect man, the heir of > the kingdomof God. He sings the song of life, larger life as his > consciousness transcends the fetters of space and time. He becomes the > bird of lamakan. > > > The poem: > > > Vanquish the void, soul's text reads, > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > The enlightened knows the meaning of codes. > > While you live, conjugate with the male, > let him have the bliss of passion; > male and female are but a gamble of union. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > The one you have your spouse by contract, > cherish mouthfuls of her bosom' milk; > do not get fuddled up by others' gossip. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > Discern the sign and slay you father, > and marry the one you gave you birth; > exile you brother to some alien land. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > Boldly dismember your child's body, > throw the piece into the gushing spate; > if you dare, then savour the flesh. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > Declare the profane sacred by one word, > and bow in prayer where there is no Qibla; > follow the infidel as you Imam. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > Hang the abstinent treat him as your foe, > and slaughter all those who profess faith, > first you burn down the prayer house. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > I gave life to the clay model > And named it human being > I gave birth to Prophet and his words > Almighty itself shone because of me. > > I alone am the centre, I am the circle, > I alone am permeating all form of being; > all forms do emanate from my own-most being. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > Be one special and escape the concierge, > multitudes are beguiled by undesired thought; > dare to stone the angels of heavens. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > I unravel the secret to the discerning ones, > the mindless hone their steel arrows; > Ahad Zargar thus composed this venomous song. > in infidelity I find the affirmation of being. > > > with love > is > > -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 11:33:10 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 06:03:10 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Sickness In a new Frame Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712112203g1df71976la07d0bd9d5967a6f@mail.gmail.com> http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2007/12/sickness-in-new-frame.html From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 13:42:12 2007 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:12:12 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Dark Side of Microcredit Message-ID: http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/5050/16_days/dowry_microcredit The dark side of micro-credit Santi Rozario Bangladesh's pioneering micro-finance revolution is also helping to fuel the twin abuses of dowry and domestic violence. Santi Rozario investigates 10 - 12 - 2007 Over the last two to three decades rural Bangladeshi society has experienced a complex range of developments. Among these, NGOs, micro-finance institutions and garment industries have become the major agents of change in the lives of rural Bangladeshi women. Women's increased access to independent sources of finance, through participation in outside paid employment or through micro-credit, is usually taken as one of the main indicators of the improvement of women's status and of women's empowerment. However, a puzzle remains: if these positive changes have resulted in women's "empowerment", why has there not been the kind of improvements in women's position that might be expected, such as the reduction or abolition of dowry payments, or a reduction in domestic violence? Indeed, if anything these tend to be going in the opposite direction. Dowry amounts continue to rise, as does the associated violence against women. Also on micro-finance in Bangladesh: Farida Khan, "Muhammad Yunus: an economics for peace" It is true that individual women, women's organisations and other NGOs continue to struggle against these problems. Yet, despite all this effort, women continue to be subject to demands for large amounts of dowry as a condition for acceptance by their groom's family. Married women are also frequently subjected to physical and psychological violence by their husbands and in-laws if they cannot keep bringing in more and more dowry, especially within the first few years of their marriage. Understanding dowry To understand the seemingly intractable problem of dowry, we need to understand the rationale behind the practice. Dowry practices in Bangladesh (the demand or dabi from grooms' families) are a relatively new phenomenon. Their rise is linked to the capitalist transformation of the Bangladeshi economy since the late 1960s and the resultant disjunction between the demands of the economy and the system of values in Bangladeshi society. This has led to a valorization of men and devalorization of women, legitimated both by a socially created surplus of marriageable women compared to men, and also by the threat posed to ideas of women's purity and honour by women's increasing physical mobility. All this in turn has made it possible for dowry to become a critical source of capital for families with sons, who are an increasingly prized commodity. These new negative developments in relation to women and dowry can be understood better by appreciating that in Bangladeshi culture marriage and dependence upon your husband is thought essential for women. By 'dependence' I mean both perceived and real economic dependency as well as the moral or cultural dependency of all women on one or another adult man of their family. The necessity for all women to be married, along with the perceived 'risks' posed by an unmarried woman to her family's honour, means that families feel pressured to marry off their daughters as soon as possible after puberty. This lowers the marriage age for women, so creating a perceived surplus of women in relation to men, who are not under the same pressure to marry and so generally marry later in life. This again leads to further inflation of dowries and to the further devaluing of women - economically, culturally and morally - in relation to men. Also in openDemocracy on the 16 Days theme, part of our overall 50.50 coverage, a multi-voiced blog with contributions from women and men around the world Other articles in the 16 Days series include: Roja Bandari, "Iran's women: listen now!" Rahila Gupta, "The UK's modern slavery shame" Takyiwaa Manuh, "African women and domestic violence" Anne-Marie Goetz and Joanne Sandler "War and sexual violence" Rebecca Barlow, "Women and conflict" Jameen Kaur, "India's silent tragedy Beyond the law Dowry was declared illegal in Bangladesh in 1980. However, like many other laws in Bangladesh this has had little or no impact. When faced with demands for large dowries, families are reluctant to take legal action for fear of losing suitable grooms. Thus villagers will say that if one family takes legal action, no other potential grooms will come forward to ask to marry a girl from that village in future. While there are para-legal staff in some rural villages, poor people only seek their assistance when a woman has been divorced after repeated demands for more and more dowry, combined with extensive violence. Families never report cases when dowry is demanded during marital negotiations. When I asked several groups of poor women what was their biggest problem during some recent research for CARE Bangladesh, their almost unanimous answer was "dowry". When I asked about violence, I heard numerous stories about how most of the violence against women was related to their parents' inability to meet the demands of husbands and their families for more and more money or other goods. Dowry has come to be one of the most critical sources of capital for all families. It is not only practiced as a one-off payment during marriage, but many families continue to use their newly-married incoming wives as an ongoing source of capital, by sending them back to their natal home again and again to bring back more capital. If the wives' families cannot oblige, the wives are subjected to violence, or even divorce. One such woman I spoke to, Ruksana, is the second of four sisters from a poor family. She was married to her cousin Ataul, and her parents paid 80,000 Bangladeshi Taka as dowry. After the marriage her mother-in-law mistreated her and demanded a bicycle, some jewellery and additional Tk30,000. Ruksana's mother took a Tk7000 loan from Grameen Bank, bought a cycle and made some ear-rings in the hope that the mother-in-law (her own brother's wife) would treat her daughter better, but Ruksana was pressured for more money. Ruksana did not want to tell her parents since they were already struggling to keep up payments on the first loan and could not afford enough food. Her mother-in-law then tricked her into signing divorce papers (she was told the papers were to obtain another loan), forced her to return to her parents' house, and arranged a new marriage for Ataul. The dark side of micro-credit This is where micro-credit has contributed to the escalation of dowry. While micro-credit has benefited large sections of the rural population in many ways, it has also worked against women's solidarity and contributed heavily to the inflation of dowry. Grooms' families are aware that money is available to brides' families more easily now, through Grameen Bank, the Bangladesh Rural Advancement Committee (BRAC) or other NGOs. I have often heard of women being sent home to persuade their parents to borrow money from an NGO for their husbands to invest in business, including buying items such as rickshaws, vans, grocery shops or irrigation pumps. Although in theory micro-finance institutions do not lend money for the purposes of dowry payment, in practice it is common knowledge among the barefoot bankers (micro-finance institution employees distributing and collecting loans among village people) that most village families depend on micro-credit to meet dowry demands. It is because of such near universal dependence of men on their wives' families for capital that dowry has come to be perceived by women's organisations as intractable and as 'too political' a problem to tackle directly. Dismantling the hierarchy Notwithstanding certain structural constraints, I still believe there are ways to arrest the problem of dowry, and in my work for CARE I made a number of recommendations. They include; collaboration between institutions working for women's rights to campaign on dowry, inheritance rights and domestic violence; development of a large-scale rural legal aid service following the model already developed by Ain o Salish Kendra (ASK) and the Bangladesh Rural Advancement Committee (BRAC); working with religious authorities; use of media, education and role models to contest village stereotypes of women. Another key point to consider is that the perpetuation of dowry and violence against women cannot only be blamed on men, particularly poor men. It is actually the middle-class families, who keep their women relatively sheltered in order to protect their purity and honour, and compete most heavily for status hierarchy through dowry displays, who are most responsible for perpetuating both dowry practices and gender domination. Middle-class women too gain from this status hierarchy. They demand dowry for their sons, are relatively able to pay large dowry for their daughters, and play active roles in maintaining their superior status in relation to less well-off women. As a result, they are often the people least willing to reject the dowry system. It is hard to see how things will change for poor village families when they are taken for granted by the rural and urban middle classes, who act as moral arbiters for the society as a whole. In tackling the problem of middle class attitudes, a piecemeal approach may work. In the shorter term, the younger middle class generation, who might have studied abroad and returned to Bangladesh, and do not necessarily share the same values to their parents, could be targeted. They are more often prepared to challenge familial values, for instance by marrying someone of their own choice without involvement of dowries. There also needs to be a dialogue between the women's organisations - especially legal ones such as Ask and the Bangladesh National Women Lawyers' Association (BNWLA) - and religious leaders. I believe if there is the political will on the part of the government, women's organisations, religious leaders, large NGOs and civil society in general, religious leaders can be used quite effectively in addressing the problem of dowry and violence against women. There is some precedence for this; in recent years religious leaders have been used very successfully in motivating large sections of the village people into accepting contraceptives within a relatively short space of time. Finally, education is frequently recommended as a solution to all sorts of problems in Bangladeshi society. I would recommend the same, but with less emphasis on rote learning and more on educating the young so they begin to question gender and other structural hierarchies very early in life. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 17:52:14 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:22:14 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate Message-ID: THE LEFT AND ITS "INTELLECTUAL" DETRACTORS PRABHAT PATNAIK With normalcy returning to Nandigram, and with the heat generated over it in intellectual circles somewhat subsiding, it is time for us to ask the question: why did so many intellectuals suddenly turn against the Party with such amazing fury on this issue? This question is important because joining issue with them on the basis of facts on the specificities of Nandigram, which is what we have been doing till now, is not enough. It is not enough for instance to underscore the fact, implicitly or explicitly denied by virtually all of them, that thousands of poor people were driven out of their homes into refugee camps for the only "crime" of being CPI(M) supporters; it is not enough to argue against them that there was no semblance of an excuse for keeping Nandigram out of bounds for these refugees and for the civil administration even after the Left Front government had categorically declared that no chemical hub would be built there; it is not enough to point out that the so-called "re-occupation" of Nandigram in November was an act of desperation which followed the failure of every other effort at restoring normalcy and bringing the refugees back to their homes. All these facts and arguments have been advanced at length, and are by now passé. But the phenomenon of several intellectuals who till yesterday were with the Left in fighting communal fascism but have now turned against it requires serious analysis. There is no gainsaying that the Left Front government made serious mistakes in handling the Nandigram issue; and Buddhadeb Bhattacharya has said so in as many words. But disagreement with the LF over this could have taken the form of friendly criticism, articles, and open letters, and not of such outright hostility that even put the LF on a par with communal fascism. Likewise disagreements over the LF's industrialization policy could have been aired in a manner that had none of the ferocity which has been recently displayed. Differences with the LF, even basic differences, therefore cannot suffice as an explanation of what we have just witnessed. Likewise, the fact that most of these intellectuals are in any case strongly anti-organized Left, especially anti-Communist (and in particular anti-CPI(M)), belonging as they do to the erstwhile "socialist" groups, to NGOs, to the ranks of Naxalite sympathizers, to the community of "Free Thinkers", and to various shades of "populism", would not suffice as an explanation. After all, despite this basic hostility to the organized Left, they did make common cause with it on several issues till recently. Why is it suddenly so different now? The context clearly has changed. With the perceived decline in the strength of the communal fascist forces, a certain fracturing of the anti-communal coalition was inevitable and has happened, and this no doubt provides the setting in which it becomes possible for these intellectuals to express in the open the hostility which they might have felt all along against the Left. Indeed, this perceived weakening of the BJP may even encourage attempts, on the part of intellectuals hostile to the Left but aligned to it earlier owing to the pressure of circumstances, at establishing a sort of intellectual hegemony over society at large at the expense of the Left. But while the recession of the communal fascist threat certainly creates the condition for these intellectuals to come out openly against the Left, the manner of their coming out cannot be explained only by this fact. It indicates something more serious, namely the process of destruction of politics that the phenomenon of globalization has unleashed. The crux of political praxis consists at any time in distinguishing between two camps: the camp of the "people" and camp hostile to the interests of "the people". This distinction in turn is based on an analysis of the prevailing contradictions, and the identification of the principal contradiction, on the basis of which the composition of the class alliance that constitutes the camp of "the people" is determined. And corresponding to this constellation of classes, there is a certain constellation of political forces among whom relations have to be forged. It is obvious that the relationship between the political forces representing the classes that constitute the camp of the people at any time, and the nature of criticism among these forces, must be different from the relationship and criticism across camps. Not to distinguish between the camps, not to distinguish between alternative constellations of political forces, but to club them together on the basis of the identical nature of their presumed moral trespasses, is to withdraw from politics. What is striking about the attitude of the intellectuals arrayed against the organized Left at present is their complete withdrawal from the realm of political praxis to a realm of messianic moralism. Such messianic moralism is not just politically counter-productive. The withdrawal from the realm of politics that it signifies, strengthens politically the camp of the "enemies of the people". (In India for instance the attack inspired by messianic moralism that has been launched on the organized Left at a time when the latter is in the forefront of an extremely crucial but difficult struggle against the attempt of imperialism to make India its strategic ally, weakens that struggle, and thereby plays into the hands of imperialism). But messianic moralism, quite apart from its palpable political consequences, is smug, self-righteous, self-adulatory, and, above all, empty. An attitude that does not distinguish between types of violence, between the different episodes of violence, that condemns all violence with equal abhorrence, that places on a footing of equality all presumed perpetrators of violence, amounts in fact to a condemnation of nothing. To say that all are equally bad is not even morally meaningful. This messianic moralism, this withdrawal from politics, is based fundamentally on a disdain of politics, of the messy world of politics, which is far from being peopled by angels. It constitutes therefore a mirror image of the very phenomenon that it seeks to resist, namely the "cult of development" spawned by neo-liberalism. Manmohan Singh says: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach "development" from politics. The anti-Left intellectuals say: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach the struggle against "development" from politics. This disdain for politics, this contempt for the political process, is what characterizes substantial sections of the middle class in India today. It is visible in the absolute opposition of the students of elite institutions to the legislation on reservations passed unanimously by parliament. It is visible in the persistent resort to the judicial process to overturn decisions of legislatures, and the exhortations to the judiciary to act as a body superior to the elected representatives of the people. This middle class contempt for politics and politicians is apparent in the rise of movements like "Youth For Equality" that make no secret of it and whose avowed aim is to combat "affirmative action" which they consider to be the handiwork of "opportunist" politicians. The rise of messianic moralism is a part of the same trend, which is nothing else but a process of "destruction of politics". Middle class moralism upholds causes, not programmes. It flits from cause to cause. And it apotheosizes the absence of systematic political alliances. Some may call it "post-modern politics", but it amounts to a negation of politics. Messianic moralism always has a seductive appeal for intellectuals. To avoid systematic partisanship, to stand above the messy world of politics, to pronounce judgements on issues from Olympian moral heights, and to be applauded for one's presumed "non-partisanship", gives one a sense of both comfort and fulfillment. This seductive appeal is heightened by the contemporary ambience of middle class disdain for politics which the phenomenon of globalization, subtly but assiduously, nurtures and promotes. The answer to the question with which we started, namely why have so many intellectuals turned against the Left with such fury, lies to a significant extent in the fact that this fury against the Left is also fed by a revolt against politics. The revolt against the CPI(M) is simultaneously a revolt against politics. The combination of anti-communism with a rejection of politics in general gives this revolt that added edge, that special anger. It is the anger of the morality of the "anti-political" against the morality of the "political", for Communism, notwithstanding its substitution of the "political" for the "moral", has nonetheless a moral appeal. The venom in the anti-Left intellectuals' attack on the Left comes from the fact that this struggle, of the "morality of the anti-political" against the "morality of the political", takes on the character of a desperate last struggle, a final push to destroy the latter, since "our day has come at last!". Ironically it was a group of US-based academics led by Noam Chomsky who sought to introduce a political perspective to the anti-Left agitation of the intellectuals on Nandigram. It is they who pointed out that in the anti-imperialist struggle, which is the defining struggle of our times (the struggle around the principal contradiction), the organized Left was an essential component of the camp of the "people", and that nothing should be done to disrupt the unity of the camp of the "people". But the response of the anti-Left intellectuals to the injection of this political perspective was a barrage of attacks on Chomsky et al for taking a "pro-CPI(M)" position. A political position ipso facto was identified as a "pro-CPI(M)" position. There could be no clearer proof of the proposition that the revolt of the intellectuals against the Left was simultaneously a revolt against politics, a disdain for politics that has become so prevalent a phenomenon in the era of globalization that it affects as much the proponents of globalization as its avowed critics. In fact these critics and the votaries of imperialist globalization share in this respect the same terrain of discourse. The hallmark of the organized Left lies precisely in the fact it rejects this terrain of discourse, that it accords centrality to politics, that it does not substitute an abstract Olympian moralism for concrete political mobilization. It is for this reason therefore that the Left's attitude to these intellectuals must be informed by politics; it cannot be a mirror image of their attitude to the Left. Prabhat Patnaik Professor, Centre for Economic Studies and Planning, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi Vice Chair, Planning Board, Government of Kerala. From amitabh at sarai.net Wed Dec 12 19:38:13 2007 From: amitabh at sarai.net (Amitabh Kumar) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:08:13 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Documentary and Reportage in Comics: Fourth Comic Book Reading by Sarnath Banerjee Message-ID: Sarai-CSDS and the FIRC ( French Information Resource Center) are pleased to announce the 4th Comic Book Reading, ' Modern Heresies' by Sarnath Banerjee. The roots of the Comic Book form can be traced back to the 16th century 'execution' posters in England. Subsequently , it went on to grow into other such forms of reportage and advertising. These include the event reportage and illustrations used in the dailies (much before the half penny revolution) such as the police eyewitness accounts and the war diaries. This was how comics were born. Humour and Adventure / Fantasia later became styles/genres that defined the form. Blinding all other genres. Outside of the well-worn path of biography and autobiography,non-fiction has traditionally been one of the most frustratingly under-developed areas of the comics medium.In our times too Graphical Reportage and Documentary Comics to some is an oxymoron, as if comics and documentation in Graphical Reportage cancel each other out. We intend to question that. Sarnath Banerjee will be talking about reportage comics and comics that have been used as a tool for socio-political commentary and ethnography. Date: 15th December Time: 5: 30 p.m. Venue: Seminar Hall, 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines, Delhi. Sarai, unlike the urban legend floating around, is not between Pluto and Jupiter. There are very simple ways to reach Sarai. We are located in the Civil Lines area in North Delhi, close to Delhi University. You have to cross the ridge from Delhi University to get to Rajpur Road, where Sarai is located. Any bus that takes you to 'Exchange Stores/ I.P. College/ Mall Road' will also take you places from where Rajpur Road is a short distance. If you take an auto rickshaw or taxi from South Delhi or any other part of the city, the best thing to say is 'Near Transport Authority, Underhill Road, Civil Lines, I.P. College'; most auto and taxi drivers know the Civil Lines 'Authority' well. We are two minutes away from this landmark. The quickest and easiest way to get to Sarai is to take the Delhi Metro, from Connaught Place (Rajiv Chowk) to Civil Lines, or to change at Kashmiri Gate and take the metro to Civil Lines. Get off at Civil Lines cross Shamnath Marg, get on to Underhill Road, walk (10 minutes) to the end of Underhill Road, where it meets Rajpur Road. Turn left, you will see Number 29, Rajpur Road soon (on your left). This is CSDS. Walk in, we are in the basement of the big white building behind the sunken lawn. (for details check: http://www.sarai.net/about-us/contact ) All are welcome!!! -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 21:11:48 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:41:48 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Naeem. This is far more sophisticated than the defence we have seen so far on this list. A few impressions from a quick scan in lieu of a reading, for which I do not have time just now, unfortunately. Here is a gem that caught my eye, and I love it: "The revolt against the CPI(M) is simultaneously a revolt against politics." I wish I could have such wonderful certitudes in life. That would have made my life a lot simpler, if a little empty of reflective content. However, that is just me, an armchair revolutionary of the anti-politics brigade ... maybe not even that, because I hesitate to call myself leftist or rightist, and the author is referring specifically to leftists who have turned against the CPI(M) ... so I am probably even beneath scorn. Anyhow, from my (rightful) place in the nether regions, I would like to squeak a warning to active anti-politics revolutionaries: Beware! You have been put out of play; disqualified from the arena of politics lock, stock, and barrel. One other thing - the author seems to be rather fond of the phrase "messianic moralism." I am curious to know if this is his original contribution to theorizing about Indian politics. And what exactly is its analytic value? I would appreciate it if members who have studied these things, would enlighten me. Last but not the least, there is the formula of "all of you who attack us are helping the barbarians at the gate". Not really novel, but probably effective with some people. Tapas On 12/12/2007, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > THE LEFT AND ITS "INTELLECTUAL" DETRACTORS > > PRABHAT PATNAIK > > With normalcy returning to Nandigram, and with the heat generated over it in > intellectual circles somewhat subsiding, it is time for us to ask the > question: why did so many intellectuals suddenly turn against the Party with > such amazing fury on this issue? From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 22:09:16 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:39:16 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate References: Message-ID: <006201c83cdd$99da2af0$cc21ab0a@taraprakash> So is he trying to equate the left "intellectuals'" revolt against attrocities in Nandigram, with bourgeois abhorence of "politics"? Is he also crying "wolf" with clear purpose of diverting attention from other, equally dangerous, wolves? Making such noise sitting in the secured JNU campus and in closed air conditioned rooms, does not harm him at all. Did anybody ever expect Prabhat to have such limited understanding of politics? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 7:22 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate > THE LEFT AND ITS "INTELLECTUAL" DETRACTORS > > PRABHAT PATNAIK > > With normalcy returning to Nandigram, and with the heat generated over it > in > intellectual circles somewhat subsiding, it is time for us to ask the > question: why did so many intellectuals suddenly turn against the Party > with > such amazing fury on this issue? > > This question is important because joining issue with them on the basis of > facts on the specificities of Nandigram, which is what we have been doing > till now, is not enough. It is not enough for instance to underscore the > fact, implicitly or explicitly denied by virtually all of them, that > thousands of poor people were driven out of their homes into refugee camps > for the only "crime" of being CPI(M) supporters; it is not enough to argue > against them that there was no semblance of an excuse for keeping > Nandigram > out of bounds for these refugees and for the civil administration even > after > the Left Front government had categorically declared that no chemical hub > would be built there; it is not enough to point out that the so-called > "re-occupation" of Nandigram in November was an act of desperation which > followed the failure of every other effort at restoring normalcy and > bringing the refugees back to their homes. All these facts and arguments > have been advanced at length, and are by now passé. But the phenomenon of > several intellectuals who till yesterday were with the Left in fighting > communal fascism but have now turned against it requires serious analysis. > > There is no gainsaying that the Left Front government made serious > mistakes > in handling the Nandigram issue; and Buddhadeb Bhattacharya has said so in > as many words. But disagreement with the LF over this could have taken the > form of friendly criticism, articles, and open letters, and not of such > outright hostility that even put the LF on a par with communal fascism. > Likewise disagreements over the LF's industrialization policy could have > been aired in a manner that had none of the ferocity which has been > recently > displayed. Differences with the LF, even basic differences, therefore > cannot > suffice as an explanation of what we have just witnessed. > > Likewise, the fact that most of these intellectuals are in any case > strongly > anti-organized Left, especially anti-Communist (and in particular > anti-CPI(M)), belonging as they do to the erstwhile "socialist" groups, to > NGOs, to the ranks of Naxalite sympathizers, to the community of "Free > Thinkers", and to various shades of "populism", would not suffice as an > explanation. After all, despite this basic hostility to the organized > Left, > they did make common cause with it on several issues till recently. Why is > it suddenly so different now? > > The context clearly has changed. With the perceived decline in the > strength > of the communal fascist forces, a certain fracturing of the anti-communal > coalition was inevitable and has happened, and this no doubt provides the > setting in which it becomes possible for these intellectuals to express in > the open the hostility which they might have felt all along against the > Left. Indeed, this perceived weakening of the BJP may even encourage > attempts, on the part of intellectuals hostile to the Left but aligned to > it > earlier owing to the pressure of circumstances, at establishing a sort of > intellectual hegemony over society at large at the expense of the Left. > But > while the recession of the communal fascist threat certainly creates the > condition for these intellectuals to come out openly against the Left, the > manner of their coming out cannot be explained only by this fact. It > indicates something more serious, namely the process of destruction of > politics that the phenomenon of globalization has unleashed. > > The crux of political praxis consists at any time in distinguishing > between > two camps: the camp of the "people" and camp hostile to the interests of > "the people". This distinction in turn is based on an analysis of the > prevailing contradictions, and the identification of the principal > contradiction, on the basis of which the composition of the class alliance > that constitutes the camp of "the people" is determined. And corresponding > to this constellation of classes, there is a certain constellation of > political forces among whom relations have to be forged. It is obvious > that > the relationship between the political forces representing the classes > that > constitute the camp of the people at any time, and the nature of criticism > among these forces, must be different from the relationship and criticism > across camps. Not to distinguish between the camps, not to distinguish > between alternative constellations of political forces, but to club them > together on the basis of the identical nature of their presumed moral > trespasses, is to withdraw from politics. What is striking about the > attitude of the intellectuals arrayed against the organized Left at > present > is their complete withdrawal from the realm of political praxis to a realm > of messianic moralism. > > Such messianic moralism is not just politically counter-productive. The > withdrawal from the realm of politics that it signifies, strengthens > politically the camp of the "enemies of the people". (In India for > instance > the attack inspired by messianic moralism that has been launched on the > organized Left at a time when the latter is in the forefront of an > extremely > crucial but difficult struggle against the attempt of imperialism to make > India its strategic ally, weakens that struggle, and thereby plays into > the > hands of imperialism). But messianic moralism, quite apart from its > palpable > political consequences, is smug, self-righteous, self-adulatory, and, > above > all, empty. An attitude that does not distinguish between types of > violence, > between the different episodes of violence, that condemns all violence > with > equal abhorrence, that places on a footing of equality all presumed > perpetrators of violence, amounts in fact to a condemnation of nothing. To > say that all are equally bad is not even morally meaningful. > > This messianic moralism, this withdrawal from politics, is based > fundamentally on a disdain of politics, of the messy world of politics, > which is far from being peopled by angels. It constitutes therefore a > mirror > image of the very phenomenon that it seeks to resist, namely the "cult of > development" spawned by neo-liberalism. Manmohan Singh says: politics is > filthy; rise above politics; detach "development" from politics. The > anti-Left intellectuals say: politics is filthy; rise above politics; > detach > the struggle against "development" from politics. > > This disdain for politics, this contempt for the political process, is > what > characterizes substantial sections of the middle class in India today. It > is > visible in the absolute opposition of the students of elite institutions > to > the legislation on reservations passed unanimously by parliament. It is > visible in the persistent resort to the judicial process to overturn > decisions of legislatures, and the exhortations to the judiciary to act as > a > body superior to the elected representatives of the people. This middle > class contempt for politics and politicians is apparent in the rise of > movements like "Youth For Equality" that make no secret of it and whose > avowed aim is to combat "affirmative action" which they consider to be the > handiwork of "opportunist" politicians. > > The rise of messianic moralism is a part of the same trend, which is > nothing > else but a process of "destruction of politics". Middle class moralism > upholds causes, not programmes. It flits from cause to cause. And it > apotheosizes the absence of systematic political alliances. Some may call > it > "post-modern politics", but it amounts to a negation of politics. > > Messianic moralism always has a seductive appeal for intellectuals. To > avoid > systematic partisanship, to stand above the messy world of politics, to > pronounce judgements on issues from Olympian moral heights, and to be > applauded for one's presumed "non-partisanship", gives one a sense of both > comfort and fulfillment. This seductive appeal is heightened by the > contemporary ambience of middle class disdain for politics which the > phenomenon of globalization, subtly but assiduously, nurtures and > promotes. > > The answer to the question with which we started, namely why have so many > intellectuals turned against the Left with such fury, lies to a > significant > extent in the fact that this fury against the Left is also fed by a revolt > against politics. The revolt against the CPI(M) is simultaneously a revolt > against politics. The combination of anti-communism with a rejection of > politics in general gives this revolt that added edge, that special anger. > It is the anger of the morality of the "anti-political" against the > morality > of the "political", for Communism, notwithstanding its substitution of the > "political" for the "moral", has nonetheless a moral appeal. The venom in > the anti-Left intellectuals' attack on the Left comes from the fact that > this struggle, of the "morality of the anti-political" against the > "morality > of the political", takes on the character of a desperate last struggle, a > final push to destroy the latter, since "our day has come at last!". > > Ironically it was a group of US-based academics led by Noam Chomsky who > sought to introduce a political perspective to the anti-Left agitation of > the intellectuals on Nandigram. It is they who pointed out that in the > anti-imperialist struggle, which is the defining struggle of our times > (the > struggle around the principal contradiction), the organized Left was an > essential component of the camp of the "people", and that nothing should > be > done to disrupt the unity of the camp of the "people". But the response of > the anti-Left intellectuals to the injection of this political perspective > was a barrage of attacks on Chomsky et al for taking a "pro-CPI(M)" > position. A political position ipso facto was identified as a "pro-CPI(M)" > position. There could be no clearer proof of the proposition that the > revolt > of the intellectuals against the Left was simultaneously a revolt against > politics, a disdain for politics that has become so prevalent a phenomenon > in the era of globalization that it affects as much the proponents of > globalization as its avowed critics. In fact these critics and the > votaries > of imperialist globalization share in this respect the same terrain of > discourse. > > The hallmark of the organized Left lies precisely in the fact it rejects > this terrain of discourse, that it accords centrality to politics, that it > does not substitute an abstract Olympian moralism for concrete political > mobilization. It is for this reason therefore that the Left's attitude to > these intellectuals must be informed by politics; it cannot be a mirror > image of their attitude to the Left. > > Prabhat Patnaik > Professor, Centre for Economic Studies and Planning, Jawaharlal Nehru > University, New Delhi > Vice Chair, Planning Board, Government of Kerala. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vadhimoolam at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 02:34:25 2007 From: vadhimoolam at gmail.com (Vetrivel Adhimoolam) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:04:25 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But what caught my attention was the writer's tendency to consider CPIM as the synonyms for politics. Perhaps the writer doesn't realize the actual interpretation of this statement. It means that those who buy the politics of CPIM are the only political actors and the rest are apolitical creatures. So don't they share a commonality with the existing communal forces all over the world? Shame on them to be claiming themselves to be left politicians. Vetri. ----- Original Message ----- From: Naeem Mohaiemen To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 7:22 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate THE LEFT AND ITS "INTELLECTUAL" DETRACTORS PRABHAT PATNAIK With normalcy returning to Nandigram, and with the heat generated over it in intellectual circles somewhat subsiding, it is time for us to ask the question: why did so many intellectuals suddenly turn against the Party with such amazing fury on this issue? This question is important because joining issue with them on the basis of facts on the specificities of Nandigram, which is what we have been doing till now, is not enough. It is not enough for instance to underscore the fact, implicitly or explicitly denied by virtually all of them, that thousands of poor people were driven out of their homes into refugee camps for the only "crime" of being CPI(M) supporters; it is not enough to argue against them that there was no semblance of an excuse for keeping Nandigram out of bounds for these refugees and for the civil administration even after the Left Front government had categorically declared that no chemical hub would be built there; it is not enough to point out that the so-called "re-occupation" of Nandigram in November was an act of desperation which followed the failure of every other effort at restoring normalcy and bringing the refugees back to their homes. All these facts and arguments have been advanced at length, and are by now passé. But the phenomenon of several intellectuals who till yesterday were with the Left in fighting communal fascism but have now turned against it requires serious analysis. There is no gainsaying that the Left Front government made serious mistakes in handling the Nandigram issue; and Buddhadeb Bhattacharya has said so in as many words. But disagreement with the LF over this could have taken the form of friendly criticism, articles, and open letters, and not of such outright hostility that even put the LF on a par with communal fascism. Likewise disagreements over the LF's industrialization policy could have been aired in a manner that had none of the ferocity which has been recently displayed. Differences with the LF, even basic differences, therefore cannot suffice as an explanation of what we have just witnessed. Likewise, the fact that most of these intellectuals are in any case strongly anti-organized Left, especially anti-Communist (and in particular anti-CPI(M)), belonging as they do to the erstwhile "socialist" groups, to NGOs, to the ranks of Naxalite sympathizers, to the community of "Free Thinkers", and to various shades of "populism", would not suffice as an explanation. After all, despite this basic hostility to the organized Left, they did make common cause with it on several issues till recently. Why is it suddenly so different now? The context clearly has changed. With the perceived decline in the strength of the communal fascist forces, a certain fracturing of the anti-communal coalition was inevitable and has happened, and this no doubt provides the setting in which it becomes possible for these intellectuals to express in the open the hostility which they might have felt all along against the Left. Indeed, this perceived weakening of the BJP may even encourage attempts, on the part of intellectuals hostile to the Left but aligned to it earlier owing to the pressure of circumstances, at establishing a sort of intellectual hegemony over society at large at the expense of the Left. But while the recession of the communal fascist threat certainly creates the condition for these intellectuals to come out openly against the Left, the manner of their coming out cannot be explained only by this fact. It indicates something more serious, namely the process of destruction of politics that the phenomenon of globalization has unleashed. The crux of political praxis consists at any time in distinguishing between two camps: the camp of the "people" and camp hostile to the interests of "the people". This distinction in turn is based on an analysis of the prevailing contradictions, and the identification of the principal contradiction, on the basis of which the composition of the class alliance that constitutes the camp of "the people" is determined. And corresponding to this constellation of classes, there is a certain constellation of political forces among whom relations have to be forged. It is obvious that the relationship between the political forces representing the classes that constitute the camp of the people at any time, and the nature of criticism among these forces, must be different from the relationship and criticism across camps. Not to distinguish between the camps, not to distinguish between alternative constellations of political forces, but to club them together on the basis of the identical nature of their presumed moral trespasses, is to withdraw from politics. What is striking about the attitude of the intellectuals arrayed against the organized Left at present is their complete withdrawal from the realm of political praxis to a realm of messianic moralism. Such messianic moralism is not just politically counter-productive. The withdrawal from the realm of politics that it signifies, strengthens politically the camp of the "enemies of the people". (In India for instance the attack inspired by messianic moralism that has been launched on the organized Left at a time when the latter is in the forefront of an extremely crucial but difficult struggle against the attempt of imperialism to make India its strategic ally, weakens that struggle, and thereby plays into the hands of imperialism). But messianic moralism, quite apart from its palpable political consequences, is smug, self-righteous, self-adulatory, and, above all, empty. An attitude that does not distinguish between types of violence, between the different episodes of violence, that condemns all violence with equal abhorrence, that places on a footing of equality all presumed perpetrators of violence, amounts in fact to a condemnation of nothing. To say that all are equally bad is not even morally meaningful. This messianic moralism, this withdrawal from politics, is based fundamentally on a disdain of politics, of the messy world of politics, which is far from being peopled by angels. It constitutes therefore a mirror image of the very phenomenon that it seeks to resist, namely the "cult of development" spawned by neo-liberalism. Manmohan Singh says: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach "development" from politics. The anti-Left intellectuals say: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach the struggle against "development" from politics. This disdain for politics, this contempt for the political process, is what characterizes substantial sections of the middle class in India today. It is visible in the absolute opposition of the students of elite institutions to the legislation on reservations passed unanimously by parliament. It is visible in the persistent resort to the judicial process to overturn decisions of legislatures, and the exhortations to the judiciary to act as a body superior to the elected representatives of the people. This middle class contempt for politics and politicians is apparent in the rise of movements like "Youth For Equality" that make no secret of it and whose avowed aim is to combat "affirmative action" which they consider to be the handiwork of "opportunist" politicians. The rise of messianic moralism is a part of the same trend, which is nothing else but a process of "destruction of politics". Middle class moralism upholds causes, not programmes. It flits from cause to cause. And it apotheosizes the absence of systematic political alliances. Some may call it "post-modern politics", but it amounts to a negation of politics. Messianic moralism always has a seductive appeal for intellectuals. To avoid systematic partisanship, to stand above the messy world of politics, to pronounce judgements on issues from Olympian moral heights, and to be applauded for one's presumed "non-partisanship", gives one a sense of both comfort and fulfillment. This seductive appeal is heightened by the contemporary ambience of middle class disdain for politics which the phenomenon of globalization, subtly but assiduously, nurtures and promotes. The answer to the question with which we started, namely why have so many intellectuals turned against the Left with such fury, lies to a significant extent in the fact that this fury against the Left is also fed by a revolt against politics. The revolt against the CPI(M) is simultaneously a revolt against politics. The combination of anti-communism with a rejection of politics in general gives this revolt that added edge, that special anger. It is the anger of the morality of the "anti-political" against the morality of the "political", for Communism, notwithstanding its substitution of the "political" for the "moral", has nonetheless a moral appeal. The venom in the anti-Left intellectuals' attack on the Left comes from the fact that this struggle, of the "morality of the anti-political" against the "morality of the political", takes on the character of a desperate last struggle, a final push to destroy the latter, since "our day has come at last!". Ironically it was a group of US-based academics led by Noam Chomsky who sought to introduce a political perspective to the anti-Left agitation of the intellectuals on Nandigram. It is they who pointed out that in the anti-imperialist struggle, which is the defining struggle of our times (the struggle around the principal contradiction), the organized Left was an essential component of the camp of the "people", and that nothing should be done to disrupt the unity of the camp of the "people". But the response of the anti-Left intellectuals to the injection of this political perspective was a barrage of attacks on Chomsky et al for taking a "pro-CPI(M)" position. A political position ipso facto was identified as a "pro-CPI(M)" position. There could be no clearer proof of the proposition that the revolt of the intellectuals against the Left was simultaneously a revolt against politics, a disdain for politics that has become so prevalent a phenomenon in the era of globalization that it affects as much the proponents of globalization as its avowed critics. In fact these critics and the votaries of imperialist globalization share in this respect the same terrain of discourse. The hallmark of the organized Left lies precisely in the fact it rejects this terrain of discourse, that it accords centrality to politics, that it does not substitute an abstract Olympian moralism for concrete political mobilization. It is for this reason therefore that the Left's attitude to these intellectuals must be informed by politics; it cannot be a mirror image of their attitude to the Left. Prabhat Patnaik Professor, Centre for Economic Studies and Planning, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi Vice Chair, Planning Board, Government of Kerala. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From skinnyghosh at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 11:31:19 2007 From: skinnyghosh at gmail.com (sukanya ghosh) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:01:19 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Letter Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4760CAA9.1080000@gmail.com> It is amazing how these so called academic responses to the issue of the Nandigram protests seem to turn the entire thing into a petty battle ground between a group of intellectuals and the left. Perhaps they would be better served if they would take the time to question their association with the broad happy nexus called the 'Left' which they presume exists in our country. Perhaps they would like to examine the lumpen idiocy that goes by the name of the West Bengal government. Nobody, least of all the government itself, has any pretensions to any kind of leftist ideology. We who have watched and listened and yes voted for these people time and again into office have been subject to the barrage of their imbecilic verbiage for decades. And what of the Left front in the centre - these are the people in the politburo who have neither inclination or the backbone to take a stand on something that will after all endanger their seats in parliament. The actual people who have any vestige of leftist thought is actually in the people who are being labelled 'intellectuals' (how weird that this has become a kind of swearword in some recent debates), 'enemies of the people', 'anti-left', 'communist haters' etc etc. In fact the group of intellectuals who reacted violently and 'turned against the party' are in fact not a such a small group. They are in fact the entire of city of Calcutta. I don't intend to be parochial by this observation or to dismiss the protests that have come from all other quarters - but it is worth taking a moment to ponder the significance of the change in public opinion that has been precipitated by Nandigram. For those who are aware of the incredible malaise and ennui that has dogged our city and it's people for decades, the importance of this will become clear. For the first time, 'the people' i its truest sense of the term are awake. and protesting. in the manner that they can. The prominent intellectuals who for years have shared, if not party tickets then many a happy partnership with the CPI (M) government, have at first been bewildered, confused and then have had to make their peace with loss of faith. Perhaps it's worth taking a look at the number of party memberships that have been returned. The ordinary indulgent middle class underbelly of the city which has taken to ignoring bandhs and other irritants in our daily lives, who for once marked their protest in a marked no-show. Who would have thought that mamata's strident call for a bandh would have garnered this nature of silent success. The thousands of the people who took to the road that afternoon in protest cutting across age, idea and class. And the newspapers and media taking a breather from trivial pursuit to carry prominent articles and strongly worded editorials. These are the enemies of the people. And for what? There is really no point in theorizing or writing papers about the loss of a political sense or disdain for political thought. Sometimes it is imperative to call a spade a spade. The government action in Nandigram was barbaric and uncalled for. The crisis in Nandigram is a manifestation of this same government's policy in the district West Bengal in the last few decades. West Bengal has no option. there is no other party which we can choose over the existing one (and believe me the nasty old BJP will take this very opening to come into Bengal in a big way). The chief minister is a goat (with due apologies to the animal), who believes that industrialization is informed by building shopping malls across a state which has yet to provide electricity and water to most of its parts. And who has a government full of people like the the jackass Biman Bose who might not have two coherent thoughts to rub together at any given time. I am ashamed to even associate these people with any kind of leftists thought. These are really not the kind of people you want to write 'friendly criticism, and open letters to'. And as for poor misguided Chomsky and Tariq Ali and friends who 'sought to introduce a political perspective to the anti-left agitation' it was no such thing. They chose to flap about a bit, no doubt misdirected by our highly suspect so-called-leftist intellectuals. There is no dearth of people with leftist ideology in possibly it's best and most progressive form in our country (thank god). But these are certainly not the the people who need to carry a badge which calls them 'The Left' or a bonafide party membership. And they are certainly not those sitting in the Politburo or Alimuddin Street. And really, the next bewildered academic who wants to write about Nandigram should please come a feel the pulse of the city for a change. Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > THE LEFT AND ITS "INTELLECTUAL" DETRACTORS > > PRABHAT PATNAIK > > With normalcy returning to Nandigram, and with the heat generated over it in > intellectual circles somewhat subsiding, it is time for us to ask the > question: why did so many intellectuals suddenly turn against the Party with > such amazing fury on this issue? > > This question is important because joining issue with them on the basis of > facts on the specificities of Nandigram, which is what we have been doing > till now, is not enough. It is not enough for instance to underscore the > fact, implicitly or explicitly denied by virtually all of them, that > thousands of poor people were driven out of their homes into refugee camps > for the only "crime" of being CPI(M) supporters; it is not enough to argue > against them that there was no semblance of an excuse for keeping Nandigram > out of bounds for these refugees and for the civil administration even after > the Left Front government had categorically declared that no chemical hub > would be built there; it is not enough to point out that the so-called > "re-occupation" of Nandigram in November was an act of desperation which > followed the failure of every other effort at restoring normalcy and > bringing the refugees back to their homes. All these facts and arguments > have been advanced at length, and are by now passé. But the phenomenon of > several intellectuals who till yesterday were with the Left in fighting > communal fascism but have now turned against it requires serious analysis. > > There is no gainsaying that the Left Front government made serious mistakes > in handling the Nandigram issue; and Buddhadeb Bhattacharya has said so in > as many words. But disagreement with the LF over this could have taken the > form of friendly criticism, articles, and open letters, and not of such > outright hostility that even put the LF on a par with communal fascism. > Likewise disagreements over the LF's industrialization policy could have > been aired in a manner that had none of the ferocity which has been recently > displayed. Differences with the LF, even basic differences, therefore cannot > suffice as an explanation of what we have just witnessed. > > Likewise, the fact that most of these intellectuals are in any case strongly > anti-organized Left, especially anti-Communist (and in particular > anti-CPI(M)), belonging as they do to the erstwhile "socialist" groups, to > NGOs, to the ranks of Naxalite sympathizers, to the community of "Free > Thinkers", and to various shades of "populism", would not suffice as an > explanation. After all, despite this basic hostility to the organized Left, > they did make common cause with it on several issues till recently. Why is > it suddenly so different now? > > The context clearly has changed. With the perceived decline in the strength > of the communal fascist forces, a certain fracturing of the anti-communal > coalition was inevitable and has happened, and this no doubt provides the > setting in which it becomes possible for these intellectuals to express in > the open the hostility which they might have felt all along against the > Left. Indeed, this perceived weakening of the BJP may even encourage > attempts, on the part of intellectuals hostile to the Left but aligned to it > earlier owing to the pressure of circumstances, at establishing a sort of > intellectual hegemony over society at large at the expense of the Left. But > while the recession of the communal fascist threat certainly creates the > condition for these intellectuals to come out openly against the Left, the > manner of their coming out cannot be explained only by this fact. It > indicates something more serious, namely the process of destruction of > politics that the phenomenon of globalization has unleashed. > > The crux of political praxis consists at any time in distinguishing between > two camps: the camp of the "people" and camp hostile to the interests of > "the people". This distinction in turn is based on an analysis of the > prevailing contradictions, and the identification of the principal > contradiction, on the basis of which the composition of the class alliance > that constitutes the camp of "the people" is determined. And corresponding > to this constellation of classes, there is a certain constellation of > political forces among whom relations have to be forged. It is obvious that > the relationship between the political forces representing the classes that > constitute the camp of the people at any time, and the nature of criticism > among these forces, must be different from the relationship and criticism > across camps. Not to distinguish between the camps, not to distinguish > between alternative constellations of political forces, but to club them > together on the basis of the identical nature of their presumed moral > trespasses, is to withdraw from politics. What is striking about the > attitude of the intellectuals arrayed against the organized Left at present > is their complete withdrawal from the realm of political praxis to a realm > of messianic moralism. > > Such messianic moralism is not just politically counter-productive. The > withdrawal from the realm of politics that it signifies, strengthens > politically the camp of the "enemies of the people". (In India for instance > the attack inspired by messianic moralism that has been launched on the > organized Left at a time when the latter is in the forefront of an extremely > crucial but difficult struggle against the attempt of imperialism to make > India its strategic ally, weakens that struggle, and thereby plays into the > hands of imperialism). But messianic moralism, quite apart from its palpable > political consequences, is smug, self-righteous, self-adulatory, and, above > all, empty. An attitude that does not distinguish between types of violence, > between the different episodes of violence, that condemns all violence with > equal abhorrence, that places on a footing of equality all presumed > perpetrators of violence, amounts in fact to a condemnation of nothing. To > say that all are equally bad is not even morally meaningful. > > This messianic moralism, this withdrawal from politics, is based > fundamentally on a disdain of politics, of the messy world of politics, > which is far from being peopled by angels. It constitutes therefore a mirror > image of the very phenomenon that it seeks to resist, namely the "cult of > development" spawned by neo-liberalism. Manmohan Singh says: politics is > filthy; rise above politics; detach "development" from politics. The > anti-Left intellectuals say: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach > the struggle against "development" from politics. > > This disdain for politics, this contempt for the political process, is what > characterizes substantial sections of the middle class in India today. It is > visible in the absolute opposition of the students of elite institutions to > the legislation on reservations passed unanimously by parliament. It is > visible in the persistent resort to the judicial process to overturn > decisions of legislatures, and the exhortations to the judiciary to act as a > body superior to the elected representatives of the people. This middle > class contempt for politics and politicians is apparent in the rise of > movements like "Youth For Equality" that make no secret of it and whose > avowed aim is to combat "affirmative action" which they consider to be the > handiwork of "opportunist" politicians. > > The rise of messianic moralism is a part of the same trend, which is nothing > else but a process of "destruction of politics". Middle class moralism > upholds causes, not programmes. It flits from cause to cause. And it > apotheosizes the absence of systematic political alliances. Some may call it > "post-modern politics", but it amounts to a negation of politics. > > Messianic moralism always has a seductive appeal for intellectuals. To avoid > systematic partisanship, to stand above the messy world of politics, to > pronounce judgements on issues from Olympian moral heights, and to be > applauded for one's presumed "non-partisanship", gives one a sense of both > comfort and fulfillment. This seductive appeal is heightened by the > contemporary ambience of middle class disdain for politics which the > phenomenon of globalization, subtly but assiduously, nurtures and promotes. > > The answer to the question with which we started, namely why have so many > intellectuals turned against the Left with such fury, lies to a significant > extent in the fact that this fury against the Left is also fed by a revolt > against politics. The revolt against the CPI(M) is simultaneously a revolt > against politics. The combination of anti-communism with a rejection of > politics in general gives this revolt that added edge, that special anger. > It is the anger of the morality of the "anti-political" against the morality > of the "political", for Communism, notwithstanding its substitution of the > "political" for the "moral", has nonetheless a moral appeal. The venom in > the anti-Left intellectuals' attack on the Left comes from the fact that > this struggle, of the "morality of the anti-political" against the "morality > of the political", takes on the character of a desperate last struggle, a > final push to destroy the latter, since "our day has come at last!". > > Ironically it was a group of US-based academics led by Noam Chomsky who > sought to introduce a political perspective to the anti-Left agitation of > the intellectuals on Nandigram. It is they who pointed out that in the > anti-imperialist struggle, which is the defining struggle of our times (the > struggle around the principal contradiction), the organized Left was an > essential component of the camp of the "people", and that nothing should be > done to disrupt the unity of the camp of the "people". But the response of > the anti-Left intellectuals to the injection of this political perspective > was a barrage of attacks on Chomsky et al for taking a "pro-CPI(M)" > position. A political position ipso facto was identified as a "pro-CPI(M)" > position. There could be no clearer proof of the proposition that the revolt > of the intellectuals against the Left was simultaneously a revolt against > politics, a disdain for politics that has become so prevalent a phenomenon > in the era of globalization that it affects as much the proponents of > globalization as its avowed critics. In fact these critics and the votaries > of imperialist globalization share in this respect the same terrain of > discourse. > > The hallmark of the organized Left lies precisely in the fact it rejects > this terrain of discourse, that it accords centrality to politics, that it > does not substitute an abstract Olympian moralism for concrete political > mobilization. It is for this reason therefore that the Left's attitude to > these intellectuals must be informed by politics; it cannot be a mirror > image of their attitude to the Left. > > Prabhat Patnaik > Professor, Centre for Economic Studies and Planning, Jawaharlal Nehru > University, New Delhi > Vice Chair, Planning Board, Government of Kerala From hpp at vsnl.com Thu Dec 13 12:25:40 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (hpp at vsnl.com) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:55:40 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Prabhat Patnaik etc Message-ID: Dear Friends It was interesting to read the piece by Com Patnaik. In typical Communist fashion he does not heditate to resort immediately to all kinds of supposed idealogical analysis and justification, all kinds of gobbledy gook, about objective conditions, princoipal contradsictions etc. Its sad that the little boys pretending to paly big boy big boy have not grown up yet, that they have no objective overview of how pathetic all thissounds. It is the CPM which has abandoned politics, and embraced power. If Com Patnaik lived for long years in West Bengal, and saw what really happens here, at various levels, including most of all the living conditions of the workers, peasants and labouring poor of the state, then he too would feel only contempt and hostility for the party. Its very funny that he has to coin the term "messianic moralism", to oconceal the fact of the complete immorality of the party, and its moral degeneration as had been vividly described by Com Badal Bose, a year ago, while addressing Calcutta district committee cadre who had assembled to commemorate the November revolution in Russia. If the party had any space in the hearts and minds of the people, then that was principally because of the high "moral" standards associated with the party. With the degeneration of the party - as graphically evident in West Bengal - peole have only contempt and hostility for the party. So morality is now to be only for Olympians. While the cretinous CPM carries on unimpeded by any moral compunctions. Yes, the CPM is desperately trying to be at the forefront of the anti-imperial struggle - simply through the freak chance of being in a position to dictate terms at the centre. That self-assumed position is so much as variance with the reality of the party where it is in power. That ugly sordid reality is what the party basically is. But the Delhi-wallahs of the party want the party to have another image and entity, and at the national level, which is totally removed from their real strength on the ground, or in terms of ideology and practice. Its like the condition of a schizophrenic, who has delusions of grandeur, a pauper who stubbornly believes he is an emperor. Its the CPM which is under delusions of its messianic role! The lure and lust of power, the desire to feel powerful - Com Patnaik is a sad victim of this. A classic case of "Dilli ka laddu". It is CPM that has abandoned politics, while embracing power. Its self-professed anti-communal an pro-poor stance, and the reactionary, socially unjust mores of our society, allow the CPM ruse to flourish. The alienation of middle-class and well-educated and well-employed Indians from the common people of the land, has enabled the bankrupt and corrupt CPM to claim one-ness with the people. Those who work in the grassroots in West Bengal know how alienated the party really is from the people, their sufferings, their woes, through well-ensconced in power. In reality, as the experience in West Bengal has shown, the party is deeply commuanlised in West Bengal, the status of Muslims here is among the lowest in India; and cheerful deals abound with and gratifications from cowboy capitalists and corrupt developers, even as the labouring poor live in the most abysmal conditions. In its truck with power, it is the CPM that has become the mirror image of the enemy. In the final analysis, notwithstanding all the railing and bleating by Com Patnaik and others, the CPM cannot avoid facing the consequences of what it has wrought. And no one gives a damn for their pathetic posturing. They have talked about real-politics, and shown the way, at Nandigram. They will have to face the same now. V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Thu Dec 13 19:58:15 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:28:15 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] ABV - Poetry in slow motion Message-ID: <935312.64263.qm@web8407.mail.in.yahoo.com> Poetry in slow motion He's the invisible force of Indian politics. Former prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee has been incommunicado--the uncharitable say, in a coma--for some months now and his current condition is a mystery that Sherlock would be hard put to solve. Only his doctor and a few close party colleagues know exactly what the state of his health is, though there is little credence given to rumours that he has been struck speechless by the state of his party and politics in general. Whatever the state of his health, we miss his homilies, those long pauses and, of course, the poetry that everybody tried to analyse. Last week, some BJP bigwigs went to his residence for advice on burning issues of the day. Here's how it went: First BJP bigwig: Vajpayeeji, we need your advice, please nod if you mean yes. Second BJP bigwig: He's been nodding ever since we walked in, how do we know the difference? Third BJP bigwig: Never mind, a nod is as good as a wink. First BJP bigwig: Yes, but he's caught a lot of winks as well in the last few months. Vajpayeeji, how do we handle the nuclear debate in Parliament? Second BJP bigwig: (After waiting an hour for a response) There, his knee jerked, did you see it? Third BJP bigwig: Does that mean, our response so far has been a knee-jerk one? Third BJP bigwig: Vajpayeeji, if you can hear us, give us a sign that you approve of the stand we are taking. First BJP bigwig: Look, his thumb is pointing downward, that means he doesn't approve. Second BJP bigwig: It's been like that since we arrived. How do we get him to give us a sign? Third BJP bigwig: I know, we'll ask him to write a poem, just a few lines, give him a pen and paper. (hands over a pad and pen). First BJP bigwig: Look, he's starting to write, it's a squiggle, but he's writing something. Second BJP bigwig: How do we know what it is? Third BJP bigwig: Let's ask his attendant, he should be able to decipher it. Attendant, can you tell us what Vajpayeeji has written? Attendant: (Looks at the pad). Yes, I can make out what he writes. Bigwigs: Fantastic, we finally have a sign. What does it say? Attendant: (wearily) It's the same line he writes every afternoon. Bigwigs: But what does it say? Is it something profound, something deep and weighty? Attendant: Yes, it certainly is all of that. It's his lunch order and it's the same thing every day, rice and deep-fried prawn. Bigwigs emerge from the house and meet the press. Reporters: How did your meeting with Vajpayee go, did he give you any advice? First bigwig: Yes, he gave us plenty of food for thought. Second bigwig: (wearily) Actually, it was the other way around. from: http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in?option=com_myblog&show=Poetry-in-slow-motion.html&contentid=2336 Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have it on http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Dec 13 23:54:27 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:24:27 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Aditya Nigam responds to Prabhat Patnaik on Nandigram Message-ID: <6dacf6d07f49eec2b3209d1c1f1e9b4a@sarai.net> Dear all, Here is another response to the article by Prabhat Patnaik identifying the opposition to the CPI(M) on Nandigram as 'enemies of the people'. This should be of interest to those following the Nandigram debate. This response is by Aditya Nigam and was first published on Kafila.org best Shuddha ------------------- But Prabhat Patnaik is an Honourable Man by Aditya Nigam This piece could be read as a letter addressed to one of my former, esteemed, ideologue-theoreticians. As young students in the 1970s and 1980s, we often went to listen, starry-eyed, to this soft-spoken theorist expound on what we thought were complex issues of our times and come back mesmerized. Yes, Prof Prabhat Patnaik (PP) was one of our idols. Today he fell and smashed himself. And then something strange happened: the broken pieces rearranged themselves to reveal a frightful other face - the face of comrade stalin. Since Patnaik has referred to all critics of the CPM as “anti-Left intellectuals”, and has also specifically referred to the letter signed by some of us (including me), I think it would not be wrong to assume that the entire article is also addressed, among thousands of others, to me (though I may be pardoned for assuming that a nacheez like me should even exist on his radar!). Since all those who had signed the statement may have their own responses to PP – and some might not legitimately wish to stoop to the level this once-saintly figure has – I must speak for myself here. Sometime ago, former West Bengal finance minister and marxist economist Ashok Mitra had written a piece on the happenings in Nandigram. It appeared in Ananda Bazar Patrika and was subsequently translated into English and widely circulated. In that piece, Mitra had suggested “prominent economist and party comrade of the stature of Prabhat Patnaik is hounded” by the party leadership in Alimuddin Street. In a way, we sort of knew it; rather hoped it would be true. An intellectual like Prof Patnaik cannot possibly be a cog in the stalinist machine, even though he may have stepped in to sign dubious statements not so long ago. We had assumed that given the political history of stalinist Marxism with intellectuals who were maligned, denigrated, humiliated and finally put before the firing squad, Patnaik had made his ‘existential choice’ a la Georg Lukacs. Lukacs, one of the most brilliant philosophical minds, decided to remain in the ranks (the ‘camp of the people’, in Patnaik’s words) and become the voice of stalinism for decades thereafter. Need we recall the whole list of such people - intellectuals - who were thus repeatedly been destroyed? And do we need to tell you that so far only fascism or Nazism has been able to compete with the communist record. We naively expected this even after we knew that years ago, Comrade Patnaik and his CESP comrades had celebrated the infamous August 1991 coup d’ `etat in the then USSR that briefly deposed Mikhail Gorbachev. Patnaik’s recent article, doing the rounds on email and list-serves is of a piece with that forgotten Patnaik. For, he describes all critics of the CPM, including the signatories of the letter as “in any case strongly anti-organized Left, especially anti-Communist (and in particular anti-CPM), belonging as the do to the erstwhile ‘socialist’ groups, to NGOs, to the ranks of Naxalite sympathizers, to the community of ‘Free Thinkers’, and to various shades of ‘populism’”. Despite his sympathies for Patnaik (’who is being hounded’), Ashok Mitra too has forfeited the friendship or respect of the latter. For, has not Mitra too committed blasphemy by doing what PP has accused all of us of? Listen to Mitra before we proceed. He says: “Till death I would remain guilty to my conscience if I keep mum about the happenings of the last two weeks in West Bengal over Nandigram. One gets torn by pain too. Those against whom I am speaking have been my comrades at some time. The party whose leadership they are adorning has been the centre of my dreams and works for last sixty years.” My purpose here is not to contest the factual claims made by Prof Patnaik. Rather, I would like to examine some of his more revealing statements and theoretical propositions. PP starts his article with a certain touching innocence: “why have these people turned against us?”, he asks. After all, he tells his party readers, “they may have been anticommunist, anti-CPM, Naxalites, NGO-ites,” “but they did make common cause with us till recently.” “Why is it suddenly so different now?” This is truly touching because it shows the make-believe world that Communists live in, where they cannot understand that elementary fact of change. It suddenly reminded me of another ’sad’ incident narrated by Slavoj Zizek. It goes like this: In Romania, the magical spell of ‘communism’ was broken quite dramatically, says Zizek. After the demonstrations in Timisoara against the government, in order to prove that he still enjoyed popular support Ceausescu convened a mass rally in Bucharest. “The crowd started to shout at Ceausescu, who then raised his hands in a tragicomic and bewildered display of impotent paternal love, as if wanting to embrace them all.” Little did he believe that this was the beginning of his end. To this day, there are people who believe that the collapse of socialism was an imperialist conspiracy and look back longingly at the 1991 coup as a last ray of hope that vanished thanks to the CIA! Interestingly, one of the characteristics of the stalinist method is deployed by Patnaik to brilliant effect. It should be underlined here: After asking why is it that ‘even’ somewhat sensible people (if they made common cause with you at some point, they must be at least partly sensible) have turned against us, you do not ask what ordinary mortals might. You do not ask, “did we do something wrong?” After all what have we done to lose the trust of our own supporters? There are communist, indeed CPM supporters also among those are today criticizing us. That is foreign to the stalinist mind. On the contrary, you ask: what is it with them that they have turned against us? Something must be cooking? Have they been bribed by Satan? Has Imperialism been upto some tricks? Surely some Conspiracy must be underway…. But just to set the record straight for PP and his comrades. Yes, we did make common cause with your party. We made every attempt in every possible way to stay together and work on issues of common concern. At every stage people had to deal with the antics of your comrades who believed that they had the contract or better, the Divine Right of being the Vanguard of History, who therefore believed that for this reason nothing should happen except under their leadership. There are ridiculous but frustrating stories like this huge joint demonstration in Bangalore a couple of years ago, where participants discovered to their horror, on reaching the maidan that the stage had been set up and captured by the CPM. The venue was decorated with CPM flags and the entire control was in their hands. We have innumerable such instances from every part of the country. Or take the antiwar demonstrations in Delhi. Some of the largest joint rallies were held after the US attack on Afghanistan. But then, the CPM suddenly woke up and by the time of the attack on Iraq, your party decided to ‘take over’. It did. The fledgling joint movement was split. Finally there rallies ‘under your leadership’ where your comrades treated us, hapless participants to the outpourings of a Joginder Sharma (don’t ask us who he is!) and such others. The result was that in subsequent year, when there were coordinated global demonstrations against the War on Iraq, there were pathetic, CPM demos in Delhi and many other places. People gradually dropped out. The list is really long and begins right at the time of the most vicious manifestation of the Hindutva threat: the day after the demolition of the Babri Masjid. Hundreds of people had assembled at the Vithalbhai Patel House lawns. Ask your comrades what happened that day - that shameful day. Even on that day, the CPM refused to hold a joint programme on an equal basis. Senior citizens like Rajni Kothari were not allowed to speak. In full public view, the then state secretary of the CPM told the police, pointing to another small group of CPI(ML) Liberation activists, that “they are not part of our demonstration.” The police proceeded to cordon them off. A few hundred of us came back and were forced to hold another meeting. That was when the People’s Movement for Secularism (PMS) was born. Some day, all this history will have to be written and it will stink, professor Patnaik. And just to set the record further straight, all this (except for the PMS story) was WHILE THE BJP-NDA WAS STILL IN POWER. Some day, the history of organizations and coalitions like the CNDP will be written and the goings on about how the World Social Forum process came to be captured by the CPM to the point of making it meaningless will have to be uncovered. Dear Prof Patnaik, you are quite fond of claiming a radical and ‘political’ mantle for yourself, but if you had spent just one day trying to organize the joint struggles that you nostalgically look back at, you would realize how out of tune you sound to everybody but your vanguard comrades. So, let us take the theoretical propositions and charges, one by one. PP explains his – and his comrades’ bewilderment – by making an assertion: The coming out of these “anti-Left” intellectuals “openly against the Left” can only be explained with reference to the process of destruction of politics that the phenomenon of globalization has unleashed. There is no argument. Only further assertions to the effect that: “The anti-Left intellectuals say: politics is filthy; rise above politics; detach the struggle against ‘development’ from politics.” Who precisely said this, Professor Patnaik? And where? Any references? The constant refrain here is ‘Politics’ that is repeated like a mantra along with “Left” and counterposed to “anti-politics” and “anti-Left”. So what is this politics? If you try to sift through the definitional web of assertions, you will be able to isolate two ideas: (1) The Left is something given; some people are born with into it. Else, they have to be certified by the Church or some favoured appointees. THEY do not have to prove anything. Others are by definition, anti-Left. (2) This idea is related to the idea that POLITICS is about two camps: ‘the camp of the people’ and the camp of the ‘enemies of the people’ (those hostile etc). Now since the Left is, by definition, in the camp of the people (remember the contract?), anybody else can only be against the ‘people’, and the Left and therefore, antipolitical. Quite apart from the fact that Prof Patnaik, that mesmerizing ideologue-theoretician of yore, does not seem to have read anything about any movement since the Cuban revolution, his views on politics actually make one squirm. Did he remember, by the way, that the Cuban revolution was made against the hated Batista regime that was supported by the Communist Party? Is he aware that the new left wing formations that have arisen all across the South American continent, movements that his party does not cease to invoke in its support, are all movements that arisen on the debris of old-style communist politics? From the Zapatistas to the Movement for Socialism of Evo Morales, the Workers’ Party of Brazill, or the Bolivarian revolution of Chavez - all of them, despite their limitations, have managed to make any kind of headway by breaking with that old politics. We could actually go on, both from the history of Marxism and from the more recent history of anti-globalization struggles to show how the idea of ‘politics’ being enunciated by Prof Patnaik is at least three decades old. This is not the place for a discussion of those movements but we invite Prof Patnaik – or any of this other comrades to an open debate on this in any neutral ground of his choosing. In any case, apropos of this idea of a world divided into two camps, my point, for the time being, is simply this: By your definition, esteemed professor, neither feminism, nor the Dalit movement nor the sexuality and ecological struggles qualify for either the category ‘political’ or ‘radical’. (By the way, what is their ‘principal contradiction’, and why should they care about yours?). Now, I can almost hear shocked marxists exclaim, “of course! Class is the Real Thing, the Principal Contradiction”. So for these marxist comrades, let me just remind them that in the meantime, your own class is rapidly rejecting you - if there was any doubt, in the first place, that is. The CITU has come down even below the AITUC in terms of working class membership - a steady decline over the years. On the other hand, the Left has lost the first ever secret ballot in the railway unions. The people, indeed the ‘working class’ too, rejects ‘Politics’! They need your political catechism Prof Patnaik, sorely. Or else, it is time you should think whose vanguard you want to be. One more word about the ‘two camps’ notion of politics: Was NATO right in bombarding Serbia and Milosevic? Especially considering, that a veritable process of ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Muslims had been going on under his leadership? We all participated in antiwar demonstrations against the NATO but would your two-camp notion of politics say that all those Leftists who saw Milosevic as the most immediate danger, were anti-political, anti-Left? And what about those who were being eliminated? They were being silly in welcoming the NATO bombs? Anti-political “messianic moralism”? They should have written friendly petitions to Milosevic, or open letters? Why were they becoming accomplices of imperialism? And what about the Kurdish people killed in a virtual genocide by the anti-imperialist Saddam Hussain? Does an opposition to the US attack on Iraq mean that all criticism and even strident criticism of such ‘anti-imperialism’ be suppressed? Finally, Prof PP says, “this attack inspired by messianic moralism has been launched when the latter [the Left] is in the forefront of an extremely crucial but difficult struggle against the attempt of imperialism to make India its strategic ally.” Well, if you really wish to break the possibility, take a leaf out of the book of Brazil or South Africa and take a unilateral position in favour of abandoning the nuclear programme, which is indefensible in every possible way. Everything else is hot air. From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 10:33:54 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 05:03:54 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [GreenYouth] Struggle against Bauxite Mining in Kasargod, Kerala Message-ID: <47625BFE.30106@gmail.com> Dear Friends We invite your kind attention to the burning issue of Bauxite mining in Kasaragod District (KSD) of Kerala. KSD is the northern most and most backward area of the state. But at the same time biologically and ecologically virgin area. A multinational company – Ashapura Mines based in Gujarat have approached the Govt. to get sanction for mining the bauxite. Company demanded following area for mining. 1046 acres in Kinnanoor village and 1300 acres of Karindalam village of Kinaanoor- Karindalam Grama Panchayat, 440 acres of Perole village of Nileshwar Grama Panchayat, 23 acres of Madikkai village of Madikkai Grama Panchayat and 291 acres of Koyippadi of Kumbla Grama Panchayat. The state Govt. has accorded sanction for bauxite mining in 200 acres of Kadalaadippara of Kinaanoor village, one of the proposed sites.But the mandatory EIA has not been conducted. The Govt. officials also trying to conduct the EIA very confidentially and illegally. The area is thickly populated by poor farmers and SC/ST families. If the project is undertaken the poor natives will be deprived of their very right to survive. This very serious problem has not considered at all. The mining would endanger the ecological balance and thereby the very life of the area. The people of the area have started indefinite Dharna strike at Kadalaadippara against mining. As a good sign, the struggle has transcended the boundaries of politics and other narrow constraints. The whole people of the area have come forwarded in the protest. However, the encroachers are big guns and there is a nexus of political leaders, beaureaucrats and the industry. The strike to be strengthened more to ensure success. We appeal the moral and other intervention of the like minded in this connection. Kindly help us by spreading the message to the maximum and sharing your potential in whatever way it might be. Thanking you, Babu chembena For details contact Babu chembena,Convenor, Anti bauxite mining committee, Chembena,Koodol,Kinaanoor P.O.,Birikkulam Via,Kasaragod District. Kerala Ph:9846771443 or Sudheerkumar.P.V, sudheer_nlr at yahoo.com, ph:09847768888. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. To post to this group, send email to greenyouth at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to greenyouth-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From asitredsalute at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 10:53:38 2007 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 05:23:38 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] nandigram taslima and identity politics-an appeal Message-ID: dear friends and comrades the grim communalization of events at Calcutta has deflected and disoriented the issue of dispossession of peasants in proposed sezs the present neoliberal offensive and the process of recolonisation both the organized left and right are increasingly becoming susceptible to fringe and lunatic communal out fits of all denominations this should be seen in the context of the ghastly carnage of Gujarat in the year 2002 the ram Janmbhumi and ram setu controversy where the entire country is held hostage to the diabolical designs of the Hindu fasict forces led by the sangh parivar while the trauma of communal violence can be backed to the partition with a long string of communal violence from jabbalpur tatanagar bhagalpur Varanasi Meerut Bombay and so on the politics of fascist rabid hindutva politics is obvious this hoever doesnt exonerate the soft hindutva poltics of congress giving issues to the sangh parivar on a platter.Thenandigram issue was about the dispossession of peasants and in the subsequent events the human rights violation the burning of houses sexual assaults on women and so on and these were very serious issues and demanded serious attention,the all india minority forum by demanding the expulsion of taslima from calcutta has put the issue of neoliberal depradtion and resulting dispossesion of peasantry on the back burner severly deflecting the bread and butter issues of the toiling workesrs and peasants by communalising the issue and seriously curtailing the burning issue of gender justice and right to expression in South Asia. Without falling in to the trap of Islamophobia and the discourse of so called one sided war on terror by US imperialism and it's NATO allies. One should seriously look at the issue of gender oppression and minority rights to expression etc in South Asia. This should be looked in the context of the incompleteness of democratic tasks and incomplete and fractured modernity in third world societies where the rulling elites have seriously compromised with medival, obscurantists, patrichial , Brahminical, revivalist feudal forces on the other hand opening of the countries for imperialist loot . It is really unfortunate that comrade Biman Bose asking Taslima nasreen to leave Calcutta though he reformulated his statement a day later. This is like playing in to the hand of revivalist,obscurantists ,muslim fundamentalist forces .the case of Taslima Nasreen is not only the issue of right to expression but the entire gamut gender justice in south asia.Taslima Nasreen has been articulating the medival oppression and centuries of suffering of Muslim women in Bangladesh & south asia and she has been hounted out of her own country.It is incumbent on the progressive democratic forces and especially the women's movement in his country to stand by her and demand that the government of India provides her residence and protection. The entire Taslima episode has to seen in the light of Muslim women in the country loosing thier grounds vis-a-vis the long pending gender justice and equal rights. Both the congress and the BJP have played a dirty game to deny democratic rights to Muslim women communal sing the issue and indulging in to the vote bank politics. Rajiv Gandhi seriuosly curtailed the rights of the muslim women in the wake of the Shah bano judgement of supreme court by passing the muslim women's bill playing in to the hands of muslim funadmentalist thus rolling back the issue of gender justice in muslim societies by decades.It has became a tough battle now. The BJP in equally opperrtunist communal stance has tried always in the troubled waters by demanding uniform civil code and now demanding citizenship rights for Taslima Nasreen on the other hand it shamelessly demand the expulsion of poor bangaladeshi workers and terrorising the entire muslim community in the country in to the second class citizenship and keeping them in the state of perpetual fear and insecurity . It is needless to repeat the horrifying tales of rape and murder in the communal riots the hands of sangh parivar is dripping with blood of innocent muslim man .women and childern.The gruesome blood bath in Gujrat 2002 is the blackest spot inpost independent Indiawhich has forced us to hang out heads in shame. It is high time the progressive ,democratic and the women's movement in India to look at the Taslima Nasreen incident and the issue of gender justice of muslim women in right earnest. In this context one should properly look at the issue of minority and majority communalism in proper perspective. Both minority communalism and majority communalism are two sides of the same coin. they seek to role back all the achivements of democratic movement and represent absolutely oppressive mediaval , revivalist ,obscurantist , patrichial forces wanting to recreate mediaval barbarism and slavery. Both hindu and muslim talibanism are extremely anti women and anti democratic. I in the light of the above we should look at identity politics in proper perspective, their are identities and identities : caste, gender,religeous, national, racial , sexual orientation and so on. Some are oppressed ,some are oppressors . There is democratic content in the liberation struggles of the oppressed identities like women, dalits , gays and lesbians , ethnic religeous and linguistic and national minorities and they should be firmly supported by the progressive and democratic movement while opposing the fasicist identity politics of hindutva represented by the sangh parivar , nazism, zionsism, white racism homophobia and so on. Therefore we appeal to all the progressive,democratic and women's orgnizations to stand by taslima nasreen and the struggle for equal rights of muslim women in south asia and give a decisive rebuff to obscrantist, revivalist , brahminical , communal,mediaval feudal forces . with revolutionary greetings. Asit From hpp at vsnl.com Fri Dec 14 12:26:37 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 06:56:37 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] correction - Patnaik etc Message-ID: <00e601c83e1e$6af066e0$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Dear Friends In my last post, there was an error. Instead of Com Badal Bose, the name should be Com Biman Bose. "...the complete immorality of the party, and its moral degeneration as had been vividly described by Com Badal Bose, a year ago, while addressing Calcutta district committee cadre who had assembled to commemorate the November revolution in Russia." Sincerely V Ramaswamy From rashneek at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 13:07:19 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 07:37:19 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Pakistan's child militants (Times Now) Message-ID: <13df7c120712132337g111ef181gc839801a41ae6642@mail.gmail.com> A culture of weapons and reliance on schools that teach little but religion has fostered a growing wave of child militants preparing them for a murderous future in Pakistan. Problem is particularly severe in Pakistan's troubled tribal areas bordering Afghanistan and that it could become self-perpetuating. Young boys - some clearly under age 10 - wear black headbands bearing Islamic slogans and tote rifles that are nearly as big as they are appear in the video. It was not clear when the video was made or where. Child-protection experts said that poverty, a culture of weapons and reliance on schools that teach little but religion has fostered a growing wave of child militancy. It was said to be particularly acute in Pakistan's troubled tribal areas bordering Afghanistan but the problem is growing in other areas, such as southern Sindh province. Such groups have asserted growing control over Pakistan's impoverished northwest in recent years, challenging the authority of the state. Qazi Azmat, chairman of SPARC (Society for the Protection of the Rights of the Child) said an estimated 2,00,000 children under age 18 are serving in conflicts around the world. UNICEF statistics say two million children have been killed, six million maimed and more than a million orphaned by conflicts over the past decade. "In fact the violence that we see today and the unraveling of our social fabric is to a great extent a manifestation of our apathy and neglect and carelessness towards our children." he said. Doctor Attiya Inayatullah, a SPARC board member said any use or exploitation of a child is unacceptable. "We need to have a strong movement which says 'No' to child militancy," she said. Mariam Bibi, from Kohat, a town on the edge of the tribal belt in Northwest Frontier Province told AP Television the state bore some responsibility for the recent spread of militancy. "Unless they are so brainwashed or so disappointed that the government is not doing enough, how many mothers will agree to send their children for Jihad, to their deaths?" she said. One recent militant video showed a 16-year-old youth apparently beheading a soldier in lawless South Waziristan. Two 15-year-olds, jailed in the northwestern town of Bannu claimed they were trained to be suicide bombers, according to a professor at Islamabad's Quaid-e-Azam University. Reports persist in Pakistan of children kidnapped or pressured into becoming fighters, some lured by the promises of pay or drugs, while others are indoctrinated at an early age into believing they are becoming holy warriors for their faith. Even more are said to be forced into support roles or use as human shields. Part of the problem is the drastic shortage of quality education, several experts said. The gap is being filled by religious schools known as madrassas that often focus only on Islamic teachings with no modern subjects and TV-watching banned as a sin. Funded by charities or rich donors, some madrassas have been accused of promoting extremism. Many students live there because their parents can't afford to raise them. The result is that the children are raised with constant indoctrination and no role models other than militants and gangsters, says Pakistan's child protection society. Accused of apathy on the issue, virtually all of Pakistan's political parties are making education a prime plank of their campaign platforms for next month's parliamentary elections. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From dak at sarai.net Sat Dec 15 01:00:50 2007 From: dak at sarai.net (The Sarai Programme) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:30:50 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Baghdad Burning- A play by Aaranjan Message-ID: <475F8B07.4080208@sarai.net> The Aaranjan group is going to perform a play on the 21st, 22nd and 23rd of December 2007. The play, "Baghdad Burning" is based on a blog run by a young Iraqi girl who prefers to remain anonymous and calls herself Riverbend. The blog and the play deal with situation in Iraq after the occupation by the United States of America. Here are the details of the play: *Baghdad Burning* (Based on the blog run by Riverbend) Directed by: Kirti Jain Script: Shilpa Shukla Venue: *Abhimanch, National School of Drama, Bhagwan Das Road* Dates: *21, 22, 23 December, 2007* Time: *6.30 PM* *Presented by Aaranjan in association with Zubaan Books * Do forward this message to your friends and acquaintances. ** -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From loziq00 at iamas.ac.jp Sat Dec 15 01:07:06 2007 From: loziq00 at iamas.ac.jp (YOSUKE Kawamura) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:37:06 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Artist-in-Residence program at IAMAS, Japan Message-ID: Call for artists -------------------------------------------------------------- Artist-in-Residence program at IAMAS, Japan -------------------------------------------------------------- The Institute of Advanced Media Arts and Sciences and the International Academy of Media Arts and Sciences (IAMAS) conducts an Artists-in- Residence invitational program. We call for applications once a year. Now we are calling for the next term. Term: 6 month period between May 1. 2008 and March 31. 2009 1 person Deadline: December 31. 2007. Application Requirements 1.Applicants should be either artists or researchers with excellent track records as professionals in the field of media art. 2.Applicants should be able to speak either Japanese or English to the extent of being able to get by comfortably during their stay in Japan. 3.Applicants should be in good health. See the detail: http://www.iamas.ac.jp/E/AIR/application.html Inquiry: info at iamas.ac.jp ---------------- Yosuke Kawamura center for media culture IAMAS, institute of advanced media arts and sciences 3-95 ryoke-cho, ogaki city, gifu 503-0014 japan tel: +81-(0)584-75-6606 loziq00 at iamas.ac.jp _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From turbulence at turbulence.org Sat Dec 15 01:20:37 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:50:37 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] To Our Users Message-ID: <000a01c83a90$667367c0$335a3740$@org> Many of you may not realize that we are a tiny, not-for-profit organization. Helen and I spend much of our time raising funds from government and private foundations to commission networked art. Our mission is to support both emerging and established artists. There are very few resources for new media/networked art in the United States, which makes the process highly competitive. When we succeed, we are only entitled to use a very small percentage of the grants for server maintenance and administrative overhead, which translates into inadequate salaries for ourselves and our system administrator. Our passion for the field has fueled our commitment for many years, but we can no longer sustain Turbulence, Networked Performance and Networked Music Review without your help. We hope you value them enough to help us keep them alive. Please go to Turbulence (http://turbulence.org) and make a donation now. Sincerely, Jo and Helen Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 01:36:09 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:06:09 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [People'sResistance] Karachi rally brief report & pix; Muneer A. Malik update Message-ID: <5af37bb0712141206y56808ea3o1c79604387c14876@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Beena Sarwar Date: Dec 14, 2007 10:58 AM Having entrenched himself securely in the presidential chair, Musharraf appears to feel less threatened and has decided to allow rallies to take place without the police beating up participants. Time to show the world that there is freedom of association and political activity before the elections! Nice try. According to an AFP report, Hina Jillani today told a Congressional hearing that "...the election that is going to take place on January 8 has very little credibility. Under Pakistan's constitution and the law, the judiciary oversees the elections. "A judiciary that lacks the confidence of the people and has no credibility, how do you think the elections are going to be credible?" she asked. The most popular slogan at today's rally in Karachi was the catchy "Muk gaya tera show Musharraf, Go Musharraf, go Musharraf!" (Your show is over, Musharraf). He should definitely go – he has no business being in power, given that his position has no legitimacy – he was elected while still in uniform by an outgoing assembly with no mandate to elect him as president for the next five years. But even if he were to be miraculous out of the equation, the system he represents will continue – and that is what political parties and 'civil society' have to address. As long as the military continues to disenfranchise the people and run the show (bankrolled and supported by Washington for its own short term interests on 'the war on terror') and as long as our politicians continue to collude with the system without addressing the real issues of poverty, unemployment and education that the majority of Pakistanis face, Musharraf or no Musharraf, we will continue to lurch from crisis to crisis. MUNEER MALIK UPDATE: "Muneer Sahib is improving everyday. He even went to the passport office last Monday to get his passport extended. He might be discharged from the hospital very soon." KARACHI RALLY – pix up at http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/ (thanks Awab) - Well done, all those who worked so hard on getting together a show of strength in Karachi. It went smoothly & peacefully. The only downside was that the hired pickup with speakers leading it often went too fast (maybe pushed by the police who wanted the rally to end quickly) and that the event coincided with the Irtiqa seminar on the judiciary held at the Press Club (because of the rally date change), presided over by Minhaj Barna (who launched his book of poetry right before the Live with Talat event). Protesters started to assemble at Regal Chowk at around 4:00 pm. Within minutes the crowd swelled up to a few hundred under the watchful eyes of a dozen or so policemen. Participants shouted slogans against Musharraf and the Emergency and called for the restoration of the judiciary and media freedom. One constable watching the spectacle of diverse flags (including several Pakistan flags) and placards amidst the din of traffic and full-throated slogans told a journalist, "In our hearts we say the same thing as you. But what we are on duty and we can't join you." The diversity of the participants cut across the divisions of right- and left-wing politics, ethnicity, class, education and gender. People from various walks of life present ranged from lawyers, doctors, engineers, journalists, writers, to labourers, students, and housewives, as well as the families of the victims of enforced disappearances in Balochistan, brought to the rally by Baloch Students Organization (BSO) Azad and their dynamic chaddar-clad central executive committee member, Karima Baloch. Several political parties participated, including Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf, Awami Tehreek, PML-N (Shazia Faizi), National Worker's Party (Yusuf Mastikhan and Usman Baloch), Labour Party of Pakistan (LPP, Nasir Mansoor), International Socialists, Communist Mazdoor Kissan Party(CMKP), Pukhtoonkhawa Milli Awami Party (PMAP), Jamat-e-Islami, and Shabab-e-Milli. Other groups included Islamic Lawyer Forum, Railway Workers Federation, the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Aurat Foundation, Women's Action Forum (WAF), Democratic Labour Action Committee, and the PC Workers Union. Police officers initially refused to allow the rally participants to make their way in a procession through the crowded Saddar area to the Karachi Press Club barely a kilometer down the road, but had obviously been briefed not to use force. After some negotiations, they allowed the rally to proceed. An interesting mix of slogans was heard as leftist and right-wing parties marched sided by side, ranging from "Asia Surkh Hai!" (Asia is Red) to religious-oriented slogans. Participants held up placards featuring images of Che Guevara, the 'non-PCO judges', and the 'disappeared'. "This is the essence of democracy," remarked a participant. Akbar Shah, an elderly tourist guide in a shabby shalwar kurta and tennis shoes standing on the sidewalk raised his hands in appreciation as the rally turned towards the Press Club and talked aloud to himself, "Go Musharraf go, so nice, good slogans." Enthused by the crowd, he accompanied them to the Press Club where leaders from various parties addressed the gathering from the back of a hired pick-up vehicle. They condemned the illegitimate usurpation of power by Musharraf and urged for the restoration of Judiciary which can be the corner stone for the return of democracy in Pakistan. From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 01:55:53 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:25:53 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Pakistan's child militants (Times Now) In-Reply-To: <13df7c120712132337g111ef181gc839801a41ae6642@mail.gmail.com> References: <13df7c120712132337g111ef181gc839801a41ae6642@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0712141225k7367a604p1160d856e5952331@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rashneek, If you are quoting a report at length, a request to please also quote the writer or website/url for authenticity or to get more info may be helpful to us. for issues of the child SPARC is okay http://www.sparcpk.org/ best y On Dec 13, 2007 11:37 PM, rashneek kher wrote: > A culture of weapons and reliance on schools that teach little but > religion > has fostered a growing wave of child militants preparing them for a > murderous future in Pakistan. Problem is particularly severe in Pakistan's > troubled tribal areas bordering Afghanistan and that it could become > self-perpetuating. > > Young boys - some clearly under age 10 - wear black headbands bearing > Islamic slogans and tote rifles that are nearly as big as they are appear > in > the video. > It was not clear when the video was made or where. > > Child-protection experts said that poverty, a culture of weapons and > reliance on schools that teach little but religion has fostered a growing > wave of child militancy. > > It was said to be particularly acute in Pakistan's troubled tribal areas > bordering Afghanistan but the problem is growing in other areas, such as > southern Sindh province. Such groups have asserted growing control over > Pakistan's impoverished northwest in recent years, challenging the > authority > of the state. > > Qazi Azmat, chairman of SPARC (Society for the Protection of the Rights of > the Child) said an estimated 2,00,000 children under age 18 are serving in > conflicts around the world. UNICEF statistics say two million children > have > been killed, six million maimed and more than a million orphaned by > conflicts over the past decade. > > "In fact the violence that we see today and the unraveling of our social > fabric is to a great extent a manifestation of our apathy and neglect and > carelessness towards our children." he said. > > Doctor Attiya Inayatullah, a SPARC board member said any use or > exploitation > of a child is unacceptable. "We need to have a strong movement which says > 'No' to child militancy," she said. > > Mariam Bibi, from Kohat, a town on the edge of the tribal belt in > Northwest > Frontier Province told AP Television the state bore some responsibility > for > the recent spread of militancy. > > "Unless they are so brainwashed or so disappointed that the government is > not doing enough, how many mothers will agree to send their children for > Jihad, to their deaths?" she said. > > One recent militant video showed a 16-year-old youth apparently beheading > a > soldier in lawless South Waziristan. > > Two 15-year-olds, jailed in the northwestern town of Bannu claimed they > were > trained to be suicide bombers, according to a professor at Islamabad's > Quaid-e-Azam University. > > Reports persist in Pakistan of children kidnapped or pressured into > becoming > > fighters, some lured by the promises of pay or drugs, while others are > indoctrinated at an early age into believing they are becoming holy > warriors > for their faith. Even more are said to be forced into support roles or use > as human shields. > > Part of the problem is the drastic shortage of quality education, several > experts said. The gap is being filled by religious schools known as > madrassas that often focus only on Islamic teachings with no modern > subjects > and TV-watching banned as a sin. > > Funded by charities or rich donors, some madrassas have been accused of > promoting extremism. Many students live there because their parents can't > afford to raise them. > > The result is that the children are raised with constant indoctrination > and > no role models other than militants and gangsters, says Pakistan's child > protection society. > > Accused of apathy on the issue, virtually all of Pakistan's political > parties are making education a prime plank of their campaign platforms for > next month's parliamentary elections. > > -- > Rashneek Kher > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From turbulence at turbulence.org Sat Dec 15 02:47:21 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:17:21 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Today on Networked_Music_Review Message-ID: <009d01c83dba$38db59d0$aa920d70$@org> Today on Networked_Music_Review http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/ Interview: Adam Nash http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/2007/12/13/interview-adam-nash/ Adam Nash is a new media artist, composer, programmer, performer and writer. He works primarily in networked real-time 3D spaces, exploring them as live audiovisual performance spaces. His sound/composition and performance background strongly informs his approach to creating works for virtual environments, embracing sound, time and the user as elements equal in importance to vision… Net_Music_Weekly: John Lifton's "Green Music" http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/2007/12/13/net_music_weekly-joh n-lifton/ Over the course of four days in June 1976, while open to the public, six large plants in the center of the glass Plant Conservatory in San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park, produced an audible, live digital music score, based on bio-electric sensing of their responses to light, temperature, movement and other physio-environmental factors (using gold needle electrodes at the base of the stem and root). Amid the ‘tropical garden’ stood a five foot high rack of audio and digital processing systems, including the just purchased, Altair 8800, which John was constantly (re)programming in Machine Language… NMR Commission: "BliK" by Roberto Osorio-Goenaga http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/2007/12/12/blik-by-roberto-osor io-goenaga/ BliK an interactive installation and networked musical composition method based on collaborative “Web 2.0″ principles. The composer / participant types directives / keywords - referencing one of the LEMUR ModBots - into a blog post to create a musical score. The LEMUR ModBots are a set of single-function percussive bots that work as a percussion ensemble... PLEDGE YOUR SUPPORT: If you would like to see Networked_Music_Review continue, please make a donation today (http://turbulence.org). No amount is too small. If every reader donated $5.00, we would be set for another year. THANK YOU. Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 * Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 11:13:29 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 05:43:29 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] 1000 Conflicts Now Message-ID: The Other Side Of India's Boom 1000 Conflicts Now There are two booms in India. With over 9% growth rate so far in 2007, India's economy is booming. India's other boom is in conflict. Instead of attempting to address the root causes of these conflicts, the State's tactics to deal with local conflicts are making things worse. In combating insurgency the State has not advanced much beyond the tactics of the British Empire. The response is based on the idea of "divide and rule": pitting one local group against another. The use of the vigilante groups has been traditionally limited to insurgency affected areas. But it is clear that the State has now extended these policies to counter protests against forcible land acquisitions that fuel India's industrialization..... Full report at http://www.achrweb.org/Review/2007/197-07.html From turbulence at turbulence.org Sat Dec 15 22:02:36 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:32:36 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Networked_Music_Review Commission: "My Space Sound" by Sawako Kato Message-ID: <003901c83f2f$b7a7cf20$26f76d60$@org> December 15, 2007 Networked_Music_Review Commission: "My Space Sound" by Sawako Kato http://turbulence.org/works/MySpaceSound Needs Mac OSX, Flash player, and fast Internet connection "My Space Sound" is an audio popup book about the village called MySpace. The story starts like this: "Once upon a time . there was a village called MySpace. It is the era when so-called 'Web 2.0' is still a novelty." Users can participate in the story by entering their MySpace URL, as well as by just browsing the story. In a world composed of both facts and fictions extracted from the database, the audience gets a chance to rethink the chaotic social network space. ""My Space Sound" is the result of my fieldwork about MySpace, with some help from my friends. It is just a tiny point or node in a huge social network, and it is a starting point rather than an accomplishment. This is just my story, and I am curious to know your story. "My Space Sound" is the artistic observations and everyday sketches of the imperfect processor named sawako about the state of networks and individuals." "My Space Sound" is a 2007 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc. for Networked_Music_Review. It was made possible with funding from the New York State Music Fund, established by the New York State Attorney General at Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors. BIOGRAPHY As a musician, Sawako Kato has recently made a name for herself with her own unique combination of field recordings and DSP combined with a noticeably feminine touch. As a new media artist, she created "2.4GHz Scape," which explores the urban WiFi signal scape; "ishi ~ listening stone," a sound art piece that uses a crystal radio and stones, and an ephemeral timeline drawing with Max/MSP/Jitter. Sawako has solo releases from 12k, and/OAR and Anticipate, She has collaborated with a wide range of musicians such as Taylor Deupree, Andrew Deutsch, Kenneth Kirschner, Taku Sugimoto, Toshimaru Nakamura, asuna, Ryan Francesconi and Jacob Kirkegaard; and has performed in Tonic, Diapason, Roulette, Issue Project Room, Monkey Town (NYC); MUTEK Festival (Canada), Corcoran Gallery (Washington DC), UCLA Hammer Museum (LA), Batofar (Paris), Kunstraum Walcheturm (Zurich), offsite, Apple Store Sinsaibashi (Japan); m12 (Berlin), Glade Festival, Resonance FM, ICA (UK); and other venues in the US, Europe and Japan. For more Networked_Music_Review Commissions please visit http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/tags/nmr_commission Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 11:47:11 2007 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 06:17:11 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: draft on sez In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Asit asitreds Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:30 PM Subject: draft on sez To: marta gregorcic , marxclub at gmail.com, " mumbainapm at gmail.com" , "mohita27 at gmail.com" < mohita27 at gmail.com>, "moidul.islam at gmail.com" , " dr_mohanty at yahoo.com" , Surendra Mohanji < surendrasurendra at hotmail.com>, sanhatieast at sanhati.com, sanhatiindia at sanhati.com, "radhikamen at yahoo.com" , thisisnotriju at gmail.com, neha.hui at gmail.com, neha.jnu at gmail.com, " kavita73 at rediffmail.com" , "kavisriv at gmail.com" < kavisriv at gmail.com>, sansahil at gmail.com, "soch at vsnl.com" , " kritian at krititeam.org" , "ravi at theothermedia.org" < ravi at theothermedia.org>, "aid_rajeshwar at yahoo.com" , Rakhi Sehgal , "creative.rashid at gmail.com" < creative.rashid at gmail.com>, rakhi.trust at gmail.com, Priya Ranjan < priya at aidindia.org>, "rohit.prajapati at gmail.com" , "pradipinred at yahoo.com" , "pradeepdipu at rediffmail.com" , "ch.pratyush at gmail.com" , praveen.hrb at gmail.com, abdulhafiz gandhi , abhimanyu.che at gmail.com, Binayak Sen Raipur Chattishgharh < abinayak at gmail.com>, "dhirendrapanda at gmail.com" , Shripad Dharmadhikary , "andolan.sunitivinay at gmail.com" , anil chamadia , Anil chaudhary , antisez at gmail.com dear friends and comrades the special economic zones have become serious zones of conflict in rural India the peasantry is up in arms against their forcible dispossession for creating elite enclaves for the super rich the SEZS are logical culmination of the neo liberal policies pursued by the Indian ruling classes on behalf of national and international big business they are bloody inhuman early 21st century primitive accumulation where the direct producers are forced out of there means of production and and sustenance. this should be seen in the background of severe agrarian crisis where more than one lakh fiftythousand lakh farmers have committed suicide in the past decade I am sending you my preliminary observation on sezs based on a study of the resistance of farmers to the reliance mahamumbai sez in raigad distirct of maharastra pls send your criticisms and comments the main study will take one month to analyse the field data and draft the final reprt pls see the attachement with revolutionary greetings asit From babuubab at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 12:35:40 2007 From: babuubab at gmail.com (Babu Sundara) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:05:40 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: draft on sez In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66ec95310712152305k2b60ea97kaa9275648fae9894@mail.gmail.com> dear Asit, Thanks...could not get/find your mail attachment....please resend your mail/attachment. Regards, babu On 16/12/2007, Asit asitreds wrote: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Asit asitreds > Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:30 PM > Subject: draft on sez > To: marta gregorcic , marxclub at gmail.com, " > mumbainapm at gmail.com" , "mohita27 at gmail.com" < > mohita27 at gmail.com>, "moidul.islam at gmail.com" , " > dr_mohanty at yahoo.com" , Surendra Mohanji < > surendrasurendra at hotmail.com>, sanhatieast at sanhati.com, > sanhatiindia at sanhati.com, "radhikamen at yahoo.com" , > thisisnotriju at gmail.com, neha.hui at gmail.com, neha.jnu at gmail.com, " > kavita73 at rediffmail.com" , "kavisriv at gmail.com" < > kavisriv at gmail.com>, sansahil at gmail.com, "soch at vsnl.com" , > " > kritian at krititeam.org" , "ravi at theothermedia.org" < > ravi at theothermedia.org>, "aid_rajeshwar at yahoo.com" < > aid_rajeshwar at yahoo.com>, > Rakhi Sehgal , "creative.rashid at gmail.com" < > creative.rashid at gmail.com>, rakhi.trust at gmail.com, Priya Ranjan < > priya at aidindia.org>, "rohit.prajapati at gmail.com" < > rohit.prajapati at gmail.com>, > "pradipinred at yahoo.com" , " > pradeepdipu at rediffmail.com" > , "ch.pratyush at gmail.com" < > ch.pratyush at gmail.com>, > praveen.hrb at gmail.com, abdulhafiz gandhi , > abhimanyu.che at gmail.com, Binayak Sen Raipur Chattishgharh < > abinayak at gmail.com>, "dhirendrapanda at gmail.com" >, > Shripad Dharmadhikary , " > andolan.sunitivinay at gmail.com" > , anil chamadia , Anil > chaudhary , antisez at gmail.com > > dear friends and comrades > > > > the special economic zones have become serious zones of conflict in rural > India the peasantry is up in arms against their forcible dispossession for > creating elite enclaves for the super rich the SEZS are logical > culmination > of the neo liberal policies pursued by the Indian ruling classes on behalf > of national and international big business they are bloody inhuman early > 21st century primitive accumulation where the direct producers are forced > out of there means of production and and sustenance. this should be seen > in > the background of severe agrarian crisis where more than one lakh > fiftythousand lakh farmers have committed suicide in the past decade > > I am sending you my preliminary observation on sezs based on a study of > the > resistance of farmers to the reliance mahamumbai sez in raigad distirct > of > maharastra pls send your criticisms and comments the main study will take > one month to analyse the field data and draft the final reprt > > pls see the attachement > > with revolutionary greetings > > asit > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- SUNDARA BABU NAGAPPAN Mob: +91-9811744919 From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 19:17:55 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:47:55 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Identify Yourself Gujarat! In-Reply-To: <0016364587300440f15673dfdb12164c@google.com> Message-ID: <506356.55999.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All, I am fine and hope the same with you. Hope you are all remember me. Its been long long time to appear here again. Its nice to see so many voices raising and providing instant solutions, on current scenario and day to day life. Any way this mail is a forward that I got is just for you all. Though I may not belong to gujarat, just would like to remind you that you cast your valuable vote. "theunderscoredhood at gmail.com" wrote: I've shared a document with you called "identifyourselfgujarat": http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dd8kpvmr_11cp7gc3hg&invite=d4j48bg It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. --- Please circulate, esp. in Gujarat. table { font-size: 1em; } div, address, ol, ul, li, option, select { margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; } p { margin: 0px; } body { padding: 0px; margin: 0px; } h6 { font-size: 10pt } h5 { font-size: 11pt } h4 { font-size: 12pt } h3 { font-size: 13pt } h2 { font-size: 14pt } h1 { font-size: 16pt } blockquote {padding: 10px; border: 1px #DDDDDD dashed } a img {border: 0} body { font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: normal; background-color: #ffffff; } This Election, for all of you in Gujarat, it's time to [ Identify Yourself! ] Who are you? Aap Kaun Ho? Just or Unjust, Peace loving or Hate Mongering, Lover or Loner... Cast your vote for Justice. The White Ribbon Campaign. Gujarat Assembly Election 2007. Regards, Dhatri. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 10:46:22 2007 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 05:16:22 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Dastangoi at DU-18th December Message-ID: Partition Dastans and The tale of Mahtab Jadu, Dastangoi at Shankar Lal Hall, Delhi University 18 December-4 pm. From gora at sarai.net Mon Dec 17 17:35:46 2007 From: gora at sarai.net (gora at sarai.net) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:05:46 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Free software (and other freedoms) event in Feb. 2008 Message-ID: <51955.59.180.75.191.1197893144.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> Hello, The Indian Linux Users Group, Delhi (ILUG-D) holds a free software event every year. We underwent a major rethinking on the target, and purpose of the event last September, as a result of which it has changed dramatically from an inward-looking event to one that is much more inclusive. While planning for this year's events, we were struck by the importance of the free flow of information in an open society, and thus thought to reach beyond our comfortable world of software to make common cause with people working in other areas, but sharing similar ideals and goals. Please take a look at the conceptualisation document for Freed.in 2008, scheduled to be held at the School of Information Technology, Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi during Feb. 22-25, 2008: We welcome your comments. As this is a Wiki page, it can be edited by anyone once you have signed up for a free account, and logged in (please use the Edit tab at the top-right). Regards, Gora ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 22:58:07 2007 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:28:07 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City: Ranjani Mazumdar: Discussion Event; Mumbai Message-ID: <48c2916d0712160012m36d2d458w983d403fc1031379@mail.gmail.com> *STARRING MUMBAI* * * Mumbai is the Capital of Bollywood but how does the city itself figure in Contemporary Cinema? Does Mumbai feature as an idea and as an inspiration for Hindi Movies? *Time Out Mumbai, the Katha Centre for Film Studies * and the *Bhawan Cultural Centre* Present a reading from *Ranjani Mazumdar's * * Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City* Published by *Permanent Black 2007* A Panel Discussion will follow the reading. Panelists include *Rohan Sippy* , director of *Bluff Master* and producer of *Taxi no. 9211* *Anurag Kashyap* , director of *Black Friday* and *No Smoking* *Sriram Raghavan* , director of *Johny Gaddar* and *Ek Hasina Thi* *Jaideep Sahani* , screenwriter of *Chakde* and *Company* *Ranjani Mazumdar* , associate professor of Cinema Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University *December 22nd, * *6.30 p.m*** *S.P Jain Institute of Management and Research * *Bhawan's College* *Munshi Nagar* *Andheri West* -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From ravikant at sarai.net Mon Dec 17 22:58:11 2007 From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:28:11 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Starring Mumbai - Dec 22nd/6.30 pm Message-ID: <200712162115.33602.ravikant@sarai.net> *STARRING MUMBAI* * * Mumbai is the Capital of Bollywood but how does the city itself figure in Contemporary Cinema? Does Mumbai feature as an idea and as an inspiration for Hindi Movies? *Time Out Mumbai, the Katha Centre for Film Studies* and the *Bhawan Cultural Centre* Present a reading from *Ranjani Mazumdar's* *Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City* Published by *Permanent Black 2007* A Panel Discussion will follow the reading. Panelists include *Rohan Sippy*, director of *Bluff Master* and producer of *Taxi no. 9211* *Anurag Kashyap*, director of *Black Friday* and *No Smoking* *Sriram Raghavan*, director of *Johny Gaddar* and *Ek Hasina Thi* *Jaideep Sahani*, screenwriter of *Chakde* and *Company* *Ranjani Mazumdar*, associate professor of Cinema Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University *December 22nd, **6.30 p.m*** *S.P Jain Institute of Management and Research* *Bhawan's College* *Munshi Nagar* *Andheri West* ------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 01:42:49 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:12:49 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Proclamation of Emergency and CPO in United States Message-ID: <5af37bb0712171212i5e1f3a66g744173c3e66479ec@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: naeem sadiq Proclamation of Emergency and CPO in United States November 3, 2007 Chief of Staff US Army, General George Tracy today issued a proclamation declaring Emergency, suspending the 1787 US Constitution, dismissing all judges of the superior courts, placing Supreme Court Chief Justice John H Roberts. under house arrest, placing a ban on media, and taking away fundamental human rights of all US citizens. He also arrested the President of the American Bar Association William Lukenorm and four other prominent attorneys and sent them to the Guantanamo Bay's Detention Camp X-Ray. He issued executive orders that despite being a serving military General, he is eligible to contest elections for the post of the President of USA . He then went to the outgoing US Congress and asked them to give him a vote of confidence, if they know what is good for them. He then declared himself the President of USA for next five years. In order to ensure continuity of justice , he reduced the age of judges and picked up sixty odd youngsters , who were duly bribed or coerced to take oath under the new rules made by the Chief of the Army Staff. These rules are called CPO or Chief's Personal Orders, and these judges referred to as CPO judges. Many countries of the world have indicated grave concern over the new developments in USA and expressed hope that General Tracy would soon have the country back on the path of democracy. December 15, 2005 General George Tracy today removed the state of emergency, lifted CPO and restored the US constitution. However before its restoration, the following changes were made to the constitution. Actions of declaring the emergency and proclamation of CPO were legal orders and can neither be challenged nor require a ratification by the Congress. Actions of sacking all judges and putting them under house were legal orders and can neither be challenged nor require a ratification by the Congress. The new judges who took oath under the Chief's Personal Orders (CPO) are the legal judges of USA and this action can neither be challenged nor requires a ratification by the next Congress. A serving military General who has taken oath not to take part in politics and to uphold the constitution can now violate, suspend or amend the constitution in what ever manner he feels like and these actions can neither be challenged nor require a ratification by the Congress. Many countries of the world have expressed great satisfaction at the restoration of constitution in USA and have expressed hope that the country would soon be back on the path of full democracy. Meanwhile Leaders of Democratic and Republican parties have assured General Tracy of their full support and complete participation in the next general elections scheduled to be held on January 8, 2008. _______________________________________________ All mailing list All at talk.pakvoices.net http://talk.pakvoices.net/listinfo.cgi/all-pakvoices.net From tbd.lists at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 08:26:26 2007 From: tbd.lists at gmail.com (Dinesh, Servelots) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 02:56:26 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Jinan in delhi at Nature Bazar, Delhi haat, 19-23 Message-ID: <4573cd0e0712171856k2e49ca6el93b986bcaee348c@mail.gmail.com> Jinan, this year, has been talking about his project of enabling artisans. Some of you on this list would be interested in do-nothing methodologies. Do get in touch with him, his email in cc... or better.. do-nothing? (Guess he wants to do something with his do-nothing method!) -d -- "Initiating collaboration between the Community and the Artisans" The Enabling Artisans project is designed to enable the children of traditional artisans to take forward their skills as a viable livelihood option by equipping them with necessary skills. The project will develop entrepreneurship, communication, designing ability, functional computer and accounting abilities, as well as providing participants with a basic tools and equipment and linking them with relevant players. The project is built around Mr. K.B. Jinan's 'do nothing method', in which he does not teach artisans but rather creates conditions in which they can develop unique and innovative designs that build on and expand traditional craft techniques. For more information on the Enabling Artisans project and Mr. Jinan's work, visit: http://my.opera.com/enableartisan/blog/ http://groups.google.com/group/enableartisan http://www.kumbham.in From anansi1 at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 11:58:19 2007 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 06:28:19 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Hey from Paul/Dj Spooky - Antarctica! Message-ID: Hey you all - I leave for Antarctica today, so things are very hectic! If you have a moment, check out the trailer for the film I'm going to shoot there: Every sound in the film will be made from the sound of ice (environmental, geological, magnetic, atmospheric etc). I'm bringing a mini-studio with me to edit, shoot, and score the film. It headlines Sundances Digital Film section this January. Check it out! Small promo (32mb): Low res http://djspooky.com/media/djspooky_antarctic_promo_small.mov Large promo (177mb): High Res http://djspooky.com/media/djspooky_antarctic_promo_large.mov I get back the 2nd week of January. I want to wish you all a very Happy New Years! in peace, Paul aka DJ Spooky From asitredsalute at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 17:22:38 2007 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:52:38 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] draft on special economic zones Message-ID: *The Simmering Dissent in the Indian Countryside – The Story of Special Economic Zones.* Asit The Special Economic Zones have become serious zones of conflict in rural India. The ghastly blood-bath at Nandigram was a stark indicator of the discontent raging through the Indian countryside, there the West Bengal State Police fired on the protesting farmers, who didn't want to part with their lands, which the West Bengal Government had proposed for a Special Economic Zone to be promoted by the Salim Group of Industries of Indonesia. Apart from Nandigram, farmers have been protesting all over the country against the forcible acquisition of their land for the proposed SEZs. Some of the prominent zones of conflict vis-à-vis are Jagatsinghpur, Orissa against proposed Posco SEZ, Kakinada in Andhra Pradesh, Jhahar in Haryana against the proposed large SEZ by Reliance Industries, Karla area in Pune district in Maharashtra. Of late, there is news of farmers' protest from various SEZs from Gujarat and Tamilnadu, as well. Under the rubric of Globalization, when the neo-liberal offensive is devastating the 'Culture and Commons' of the indigenous people of India appropriating the land of the peasants in this process, thousands of acres of land have been taken away from people, forcibly dispossessing millions of Aadiwasis and Farmers in the name of high GDP growth and attracting foreign direct investments. The whole issue of Special Economic Zones has to be seen in the context of cataclysmic changes taking place in the global scale which had devastating impact on third world societies. Much has been written on the global restructuring by Civil Society Groups and the Political Left. India shared the fate of most of the Third World societies where the national liberation movements inspired hopes for millions of peasants that they can lead a life of dignity free from the colonial yoke. The post-independent journey of India started with a vision of self reliance and egalitarianism with the state whose elected executives would play the role of prime-movers. The Nehru Era saw 'Abolition of Landlordism and Investment in Irrigation'. Land Reforms released the forces of production in the countryside and the coming in of the Green Revolution brought in relative prosperity in rural areas of Punjab, Haryana, Western U.P. and Coastal Andhra, where high input intensive agriculture was adopted. This path of "Nehruian" Model of growth had a flip side which the mainstream Media concealed until social movements like Narmada Bachao, Koel Karo , Kalinganagar, Kashipur, Kalahandi, Tehri, etc. bought the other side of post-independent rural reality and the simmering discontent. This path of heavy industrialization and emphasis on modern infra-structures created massive displacement. According to various sources, by mid-nineties, there were more than 40 million farmers and Aadiwasis who were displaced by various mega projects like dams, mines, factories and industrial township. This is a whooping and revealing figure of the number of people displaced which was more than the population of England. As mentioned earlier, social movements like Narmada and Tehri were indicators of the refusal of rural masses to part with their land and homes in the name of development. As a result of global restructuring. The Indian rulers adopted the neo-liberal ideology ushered in through the new economic policies of 1991. All the welfare provisions, concept of self-reliance, pro-farmers and labor regimes were gradually dismantled, leaving vulnerable segments of the population like women, dalits, farmers, Aadiwasis, etc. at the mercy of the market. Thus, market became the new god in the era of Globalization. The Indian rulers who had completely turned neo-liberal in the new millennium adopted the Special Economic Zone Policy when the entire country was undergoing acute agrarian crisis, the most horrifying symptom of which was the high number of incidences of farmers committing suicide by mid 2005 more than 1.5lakh ( hundred and fifty thousand ) farmers had committed suicide , this phenomenon goes on unabated till today. Agriculture is having its lowest growth rate since past five years . The Massive and forceful acquisition of land had accelerated the on going misery and marginalization of the rural population. As result farmers are up in arms. Special Economic Zones were the logical culmination of anti-people, anti-Farmers path pursued by the Indian rulers which has other hazards apart from the massive dispossession of the farmers and rural artisans. Large scale land acquisition for Mega-Industrial projects, infrastructure projects and SEZs is transforming the whole of the rural scenario in the country from bad to worse. To cover up the devastation, the State Governments are half- heartedly bringing rehabilitation and re-settlement policies. The land acquisition by the Government ostensibly in the name of Public Interest, is in fact transferring thousands of acres of fertile land to Multi-national Mega Corporations like Posco, Salim and Indian big business houses likes Tata, Jindal, Ambani and Birla. Through this process of displacement, land and livelihoods are being alienated from the farmers and other sections of the population, as mentioned earlier. Tens of millions of farmers and rural artisans have already been displaced in the name of development. Displacement has converted farmers, Adiwasis and rural artisans into destitutes most of whom have been forced to become casual workers in urban centres without any rights. Fear of displacement from their homes, from their lands and livelihoods, from their community and thought of living the rest of their lives as destitutes has suddenly become a reality for vast masses of India. The very people, who according to the Government are supposed to be benefiting from so called Industrialization in the form of R & R benefits, jobs urban facilities, social and hospitals etc. are seen to be opposing these policies the most. The fact is that no State Government to have the intention and capacity for the rehabilitation of the displaced people. The land grabbing through displacement is not only restricted to the rural areas. In the urban areas, the slum dwellers are being forcibly evicted to make way for city, beautification and gentrification, establishment of huge malls, real estate development, widening of roads etc. often without any compensation and alternate dwelling place for slum dwellers. The slum dwellers of most of the large cities are now resorting to protest movements against their growing dispossession and marginalization. The establishment of SEZs is playing havoc with the rural population of India. Primarily India is an agricultural country and more than 70% of Indian people are dependent on agriculture and its ancillary activities. To develop India any sensible policy will have to develop agriculture sector. But for the past 60 years, The Indian ruling elite have never seriously attempted apart from the high tech Green Revolution package, no attempt was made to upgrade agricultural land both availability and quantitatively by disturbing arable waste land to the poor and creating irrigation facilities. Such measures would have increased agricultural production making farmers prosperous which would have created demand for manufactured goods and stimulated industrialization with employment opportunities, but instead today the Indian agriculture is facing its worst crisis. The development of India is impossible without the development of agriculture as in most villages of India agriculture and allied livelihoods such as fishing, animal husbandry, forestry are the only sustainable livelihoods for the majority of the people. Today the Government is unable to provide any other sustainable livelihood after taking away land and common property resources such as forests, streams, ponds, grazing lands, etc. which are the basis of agriculture and allied occupation. Implementation of pro-agri-business agricultural policies in the name of Green Revolution imposition of GM seeds, contract farming and corporate control of agricultural sector are the basic elements of the neo-liberal agriculture policies which is extremely harmful for most of the farmers and rural artisans. Farmers' suicides are serious indications of this agrarian situation. This grave crisis will also have a serious impact on food security for Indian rural population which is, anyway, under tremendous strain. Therefore, the rural population is up in arms to save their agricultural land, livelihood, common property resources like forests, sources of water etc. We have to seriously campaign and support the struggle for protection and restoration of Indian agriculture. There is a necessity for instilling confidence amongst farmers and rural artisans for alternative development models is possible different groups across India are trying to implement alternate development models on a small scale, different political forces, mass movements and civil society groups working with people have their own version of alternative development models on a small scale, different political forces, mass movements and civil society groups working with people have their own version of alternative development models. The farmers have realized that even in the prevailing situation of agrarian crisis gripping the country there is no other option but to stick to agriculture and allied occupations. Industrial development of India has to be in the interest of the masses and it can only happen on the basis of development of agriculture and the rural economy on the whole. Therefore, the demand should be the development of agriculture and rural economy in the interest of the vast masses of India. The forcible displacement of the people from their lands and livelihoods for establishment of mega- industries and infra-structural projects and establishments of exclusive economic enclaves by multi-national corporations and Indian big business in the name of SEZs is the anti- poor, pro-national and Inter-national Big Business. The Government of India has adopted policies which have left the urban and rural poor including the medium farmers and urban lower middle classes in a precarious situation when for even the basic necessities of life people have increasingly become dependent on the market forces, which again are controlled by the National and Inter-national big business houses viz. World Bank, IMF, WTO, etc. The industrialization policy of the Government is not aimed at supplementing the production capacity of those products which are in demand by the masses, nor it is creating any additional employment for the vast army of unemployed of the country as Mega- industries which are encouraged by the Government and are established by the Global and Indian big business are high-tech automated industries, having a very low employment prospect. On the other hand, such industries are responsible for large scale displacement and massive loss of employment. The present emphasis is on those industries which would exhaust the mineral resources of India in next 3 to 4 decades, while these semi-finalized and low value added intermediate products will be exported for manufacturing high and costly products which will be again imported to India at a huge cost. This anti-farmer-pro-big-business-industrial and mining policy is encouraging establishment of huge mineral based industries, industrial infrastructures like roads, rail, power plant, water treatment plant, townships, SEZs, smart cities, EPZs, etc. Especially the SEZs have resulted in farmers losing their land and livelihoods. Massive unemployment is being caused, natural resources are being exhausted at a rapid rate and nature is getting devastated. The implementation of SEZ plicy is leading to creation of exclusive zones where no laws of land are there to protect the rights of the labour and that of the farmers. Infact these laws are anti-people. This path of industrialization that is displacing vast masses of the farmers and rural artisans, will spell disaster for the country as a whole. Therefore, the establishment of SEZ is playing havoc with the lives of the entire rural population including the adiwasis. This path of industrialization through Foreign Direct Investment and Foreign Institutional Investment have given priority for establishing SEZs throughout India solely for the super profits of the International and National big business. For the establishment of SEZs, the various state Governments have ruthlessly used the "Colonial 1894 Land Acquisition Act", forcibly evacuating people, destroying their cultural moorings, social peace and livelihood, all in the name of growth, while on the other hand SEZs which have been described as a foreign territory in the SEZ Act of 2005 have been given the status of separate enclaves where no law of the land or Constitutional provisions will apply. The development commissioner appointed by the State Government will govern the SEZ with private security, own laws and own regimes of justice and maintenance of law and order. Neither the Civil Laws and Labor Laws nor any other laws of land will be honored in these enclaves. This status of separate foreign territories enables the corporate houses to exploit labor ruthlessly. Working conditions will be deteriorated; working hours will be arbitrarily increased to 12 to 14 hours. No work safety measures will be taken. Since the work in these zones is given to contractors, the workers will be paid low wages. No payments for weekly offs, no lease with wages, no medical leave, no Provident Fund, no ES, no recreational facilities, no gratuity, almost no social security will be provided to the workers. Accidents in the work places are bound to increase. No workmen's compensation will be paid. Women workers will be even more exploited. The SEZs are the most advanced and deadliest weapons of the neo-liberal re-structuring apart from dispossessions of millions of farmers and artisans it devastates their cultural milieu and these enclaves here no laws of land will apply is akin to re-colonization of the Third World. The massive outburst of anger of the people of Nandigram, the ongoing struggle against POSCO SEZ in Jagatsinghpur, Orissa , the struggle in Raigar and many other places and the country–wide resistance against forcible acquisition of land by the Government for the SEZs to be developed by Indian and International big businesses has forced the Government of India to announced the rulers under the SEZ Act 2005, according to which the private corporate sector will purchase land straight from the farmers even after this decision of the Government of India everywhere Police is intervening on behalf of the corporate sector the case in point is struggle against the Korean giant POSCO SEZ in Orissa. After the local people confronted the Posco officials, the police intervened on behalf of Posco with an intention of terrorizing the people and forcing them to surrender their land, these interventions of police force on behalf of the corporate sector against struggling farmers happens all over India, the list is endless. This exposes the dual face of the Central and State Government, who go out of their way to acquire land for the corporate sector while mouthing pro-people platitude in public platforms and legislatures. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In the light of the above importance of the peasant resistance to the Special Economic Zones, a study was undertaken to understand the concrete reasons of farmers' opposition to the SEZs. The Maha-mumbai SEZ promoted by Reliance Industries in Raigad District in Maharashtra and the Mahindra and Mahidra SEZ promoted by Mahindra Group at Karla in Pune District of Maharashtra were selected for the study. The field work was done between 20th, July, 2007 and 5th, September, 2007. The methodology adopted was 'Qualitative" interviews of respondents from different castes, occupations and gender in the Panvel, Pan and Uran Tehsils of Raigad Diatricts and of 6 villages in Karla area of Maval Tehsil of Pune district. In the next 20 days, the field data will be analyzed and the report will be drafted. Pls send ur comments to asitredsalute at gmail.com From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 00:28:19 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 18:58:19 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Tribunal_to_amplify_tsunami_survivors?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99_plight?= Message-ID: <4768659D.5050505@gmail.com> Tribunal to amplify tsunami survivors’ plight ------------------------------------------------------------------ PEOPLES’ TRIBUNAL ON TSUNAMI REHABILITATION TO BE HELD IN CHENNAI ON 21ST AND 22ND DECEMBER CHENNAI: A People’s Tribunal on the status of tsunami rehabilitation will be organised by Voices from the Margins at ICSA centre, Jeevana Jyothi campus, Opposite Egmore Museum, Chennai on December 21st and 22nd 10 am to 5.30 pm. voices from the Margins is a broad platform of organisations of marginalized communities and support groups. This tribunal is an outcome of a recent study by Voices from the Margins that exposed several discrepancies and shortcomings in tsunami rehabilitation. The tribunal aims to conduct an impartial and independent enquiry on tsunami rehabilitation after three years and to compile a policy report based on the testimonies by the affected people, observations of experts and community leaders. This report will be submitted to concerned state departments and donor groups that supported tsunami rehabilitation. The People’s Tribunal will have a jury consisting of eminent persons including Justice Mr. H. Suresh (retired judge, Mumbai High Court) , Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer (eminent social activist and winner of Right to Livelihood award), Dr. K.N.Panikkar (historian and former vice Chancellor, Sankaracharya University) and Dr.Yasodha Shanmugasundaram (former vice Chancellor, Mother Teresa Women’s University). The jury will be assisted by a panel of experts on various issues related to tsunami disaster, relief and rehabilitation, including Dr.R.K.Sivanappan, Mr. Ossie Fernandez, Advocate Henri Tiphagne, Dr. P.V. Unnikrishnan, Mr. Vasudevraju, Prof Ms.V.Kadhambari, Ms. Chaman Pincha, Dr. Constantin Varidaiah and Mr. Sumesh Mangalassery. The outcome of the people’s tribunal will be submitted to the Prime Minister of India, Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu and Pondicherry, and donors. It will be used as policy paper to bring effective changes in the final phase of tsunami rehabilitation. Several civil society organizations have come forward to take part in and support the People’s Tribunal. Poet Ms Malathy Maithri and S.M.Prithiviraj are the conveners of Pondicherry and Tamilnadu respectively. Contact: Mobile : 9843080963, 9443090175 & 9444224866 E-mail: voicesfromthemargins at gmail.com Web: http://voicesfromthemargins.com From sampathlives at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 00:31:06 2007 From: sampathlives at gmail.com (Sampath G) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:01:06 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 53, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9bf30d340712181100u59a3baa9nac53f4974183bf62@mail.gmail.com> The situation described here is as true as it is depressing. In the name of growth and development, we are totally eliminating all kinds of subsistence economies, which do have a role to play and right to exist. The SEZ is a man-made paradise for capital - to grow and multiply, where it can consume human labour in peace and spit out deadened, desiccated lives. I'd like to have a copy of the final report when it is ready. Sampath On 12/18/07, reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote: > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Identify Yourself Gujarat! (we wi) > 2. [Announcements] Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City: > Ranjani Mazumdar: Discussion Event; Mumbai (Aarti Sethi) > 3. [Announcements] Starring Mumbai - Dec 22nd/6.30 pm (Ravikant) > 4. Proclamation of Emergency and CPO in United States (yasir ~) > 5. Jinan in delhi at Nature Bazar, Delhi haat, 19-23 > (Dinesh, Servelots) > 6. Hey from Paul/Dj Spooky - Antarctica! (Paul D. Miller) > 7. draft on special economic zones (Asit asitreds) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 05:47:45 -0800 (PST) > From: we wi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Identify Yourself Gujarat! > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: <506356.55999.qm at web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear All, > > I am fine and hope the same with you. Hope you are all remember me. > Its been long long time to appear here again. Its nice to see so many > voices raising and providing instant solutions, on current scenario and day > to day life. > > Any way this mail is a forward that I got is just for you all. > Though I may not belong to gujarat, just would like to remind you that you > cast your valuable vote. > > > > "theunderscoredhood at gmail.com" wrote: > I've shared a document with you called "identifyourselfgujarat": > http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dd8kpvmr_11cp7gc3hg&invite=d4j48bg > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this > document, just click the link above. > --- > > Please circulate, esp. in Gujarat. > > table { font-size: 1em; } div, address, > ol, ul, li, option, select { margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; > } p { margin: 0px; } body { padding: 0px; > margin: 0px; } h6 { font-size: 10pt } h5 { > font-size: 11pt } h4 { font-size: 12pt } h3 { font-size: 13pt } h2 > { font-size: 14pt } h1 { font-size: 16pt } blockquote {padding: > 10px; border: 1px #DDDDDD dashed } a img {border: 0} > body { font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12.0pt; > line-height: normal; background-color: #ffffff; } > > This Election, for all of you in Gujarat, it's time to > > > > > [ Identify Yourself! ] > > > Who are you? > Aap Kaun Ho? > > > > > Just or Unjust, > Peace loving or Hate Mongering, > Lover or Loner... > > > Cast your vote for Justice. > > > > > > The White Ribbon Campaign. > Gujarat Assembly Election 2007. > > > > > > > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:42:04 +0530 > From: "Aarti Sethi" > Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Bombay Cinema: An Archive of > the City: Ranjani Mazumdar: Discussion Event; Mumbai > To: announcements at sarai.net > Message-ID: > <48c2916d0712160012m36d2d458w983d403fc1031379 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > *STARRING MUMBAI* > > * * > > Mumbai is the Capital of Bollywood but how does the city itself figure in > Contemporary Cinema? Does Mumbai feature as an idea and as an inspiration > for Hindi Movies? > > > > *Time Out Mumbai, the Katha Centre for Film Studies * and the *Bhawan > Cultural Centre* > > Present a reading from *Ranjani Mazumdar's * > > > > * Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City* > > Published by > > *Permanent Black 2007* > > > > A Panel Discussion will follow the reading. Panelists include > > > > *Rohan Sippy* , director of *Bluff Master* and producer of *Taxi no. 9211* > > *Anurag Kashyap* , director of *Black Friday* and *No Smoking* > > *Sriram Raghavan* , director of *Johny Gaddar* and *Ek Hasina Thi* > > *Jaideep Sahani* , screenwriter of *Chakde* and *Company* > > *Ranjani Mazumdar* , associate professor of Cinema Studies at Jawaharlal > Nehru University > > > > *December 22nd, * *6.30 p.m*** > > *S.P Jain Institute of Management and Research * > > *Bhawan's College* > > *Munshi Nagar* > > *Andheri West* > -------------- next part -------------- > _______________________________________________ > announcements mailing list > announcements at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 21:15:33 +0530 > From: Ravikant > Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Starring Mumbai - Dec 22nd/6.30 > pm > To: announcements at sarai.net > Message-ID: <200712162115.33602.ravikant at sarai.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > *STARRING MUMBAI* > > * * > > Mumbai is the Capital of Bollywood but how does the city itself figure in > Contemporary Cinema? Does Mumbai feature as an idea and as an inspiration > for Hindi Movies? > > > > *Time Out Mumbai, the Katha Centre for Film Studies* and the *Bhawan > Cultural Centre* > > Present a reading from *Ranjani Mazumdar's* > > *Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City* > > Published by > > *Permanent Black 2007* > > > > A Panel Discussion will follow the reading. Panelists include > > > > *Rohan Sippy*, director of *Bluff Master* and producer of *Taxi no. 9211* > > *Anurag Kashyap*, director of *Black Friday* and *No Smoking* > > *Sriram Raghavan*, director of *Johny Gaddar* and *Ek Hasina Thi* > > *Jaideep Sahani*, screenwriter of *Chakde* and *Company* > > *Ranjani Mazumdar*, associate professor of Cinema Studies at Jawaharlal > Nehru University > > > > *December 22nd, **6.30 p.m*** > > *S.P Jain Institute of Management and Research* > > *Bhawan's College* > > *Munshi Nagar* > > *Andheri West* > > ------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > announcements mailing list > announcements at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:12:37 -0800 > From: "yasir ~" > Subject: [Reader-list] Proclamation of Emergency and CPO in United > States > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > <5af37bb0712171212i5e1f3a66g744173c3e66479ec at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: naeem sadiq > > > > > Proclamation of Emergency and CPO in United States > > > > November 3, 2007 > > > > Chief of Staff US Army, General George Tracy today issued a > proclamation declaring Emergency, suspending the 1787 US > Constitution, dismissing all judges of the superior courts, placing > Supreme Court Chief Justice John H Roberts. under house arrest, > placing a ban on media, and taking away fundamental human rights of > all US citizens. He also arrested the President of the American Bar > Association William Lukenorm and four other prominent attorneys and > sent them to the Guantanamo Bay's Detention Camp X-Ray. He issued > executive orders that despite being a serving military General, he is > eligible to contest elections for the post of the President of USA . > He then went to the outgoing US Congress and asked them to give him a > vote of confidence, if they know what is good for them. He then > declared himself the President of USA for next five years. In order to > ensure continuity of justice , he reduced the age of judges and picked > up sixty odd youngsters , who were duly bribed or coerced to take > oath under the new rules made by the Chief of the Army Staff. These > rules are called CPO or Chief's Personal Orders, and these judges > referred to as CPO judges. > > Many countries of the world have indicated grave concern over the > new developments in USA and expressed hope that General Tracy would > soon have the country back on the path of democracy. > > > > > > December 15, 2005 > > > > General George Tracy today removed the state of emergency, lifted CPO > and restored the US constitution. However before its restoration, > the following changes were made to the constitution. > > Actions of declaring the emergency and proclamation of CPO were legal > orders and can neither be challenged nor require a ratification by the > Congress. > Actions of sacking all judges and putting them under house were > legal orders and can neither be challenged nor require a ratification > by the Congress. > The new judges who took oath under the Chief's Personal Orders (CPO) > are the legal judges of USA and this action can neither be challenged > nor requires a ratification by the next Congress. > A serving military General who has taken oath not to take part in > politics and to uphold the constitution can now violate, suspend or > amend the constitution in what ever manner he feels like and these > actions can neither be challenged nor require a ratification by the > Congress. > > > > Many countries of the world have expressed great satisfaction at the > restoration of constitution in USA and have expressed hope that the > country would soon be back on the path of full democracy. > > > > Meanwhile Leaders of Democratic and Republican parties have assured > General Tracy of their full support and complete participation in the > next general elections scheduled to be held on January 8, 2008. > > _______________________________________________ > All mailing list > All at talk.pakvoices.net > http://talk.pakvoices.net/listinfo.cgi/all-pakvoices.net > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:26:21 +0530 > From: "Dinesh, Servelots" > Subject: [Reader-list] Jinan in delhi at Nature Bazar, Delhi haat, > 19-23 > To: "sarai list" > Cc: Jinan kb > Message-ID: > <4573cd0e0712171856k2e49ca6el93b986bcaee348c at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Jinan, this year, has been talking about his project of enabling artisans. > Some of you on this list would be interested in do-nothing methodologies. > Do get in touch with him, his email in cc... or better.. do-nothing? > (Guess he wants to do something with his do-nothing method!) > > -d > > -- > "Initiating collaboration between the Community and the Artisans" > > The Enabling Artisans project is designed to enable the children of > traditional artisans to take forward their skills as a viable > livelihood option by equipping them with necessary skills. The project > will develop entrepreneurship, communication, designing ability, > functional computer and accounting abilities, as well as providing > participants with a basic tools and equipment and linking them with > relevant players. > > The project is built around Mr. K.B. Jinan's 'do nothing method', in > which he does not teach artisans but rather creates conditions in > which they can develop unique and innovative designs that build on and > expand traditional craft techniques. > > For more information on the Enabling Artisans project and Mr. Jinan's > work, visit: > http://my.opera.com/enableartisan/blog/ > http://groups.google.com/group/enableartisan > http://www.kumbham.in > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 1:27:00 -0500 > From: "Paul D. Miller" > Subject: [Reader-list] Hey from Paul/Dj Spooky - Antarctica! > To: tbdinesh at servelots.com,"sarai list" > Cc: Jinan kb > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Hey you all - I leave for Antarctica today, so things are very hectic! If > you have a moment, check out the trailer for the film I'm going to shoot > there: Every sound in the film will be made from the sound of ice > (environmental, geological, magnetic, atmospheric > etc). I'm bringing a mini-studio with me to edit, shoot, and score > the film. It headlines Sundances Digital Film section this January. > > Check it out! > Small promo (32mb): Low res > http://djspooky.com/media/djspooky_antarctic_promo_small.mov > > Large promo (177mb): High Res > http://djspooky.com/media/djspooky_antarctic_promo_large.mov > > > I get back the 2nd week of January. > > I want to wish you all a very Happy New Years! > > in peace, > Paul aka DJ Spooky > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:22:30 +0530 > From: "Asit asitreds" > Subject: [Reader-list] draft on special economic zones > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > *The Simmering Dissent in the Indian Countryside – The Story of Special > Economic Zones.* > > Asit > > > The Special Economic Zones have become serious zones of conflict in rural > India. The ghastly blood-bath at Nandigram was a stark indicator of the > discontent raging through the Indian countryside, there the West Bengal > State Police fired on the protesting farmers, who didn't want to part with > their lands, which the West Bengal Government had proposed for a Special > Economic Zone to be promoted by the Salim Group of Industries of Indonesia. > Apart from Nandigram, farmers have been protesting all over the country > against the forcible acquisition of their land for the proposed SEZs. Some > of the prominent zones of conflict vis-à-vis are Jagatsinghpur, Orissa > against proposed Posco SEZ, Kakinada in Andhra Pradesh, Jhahar in Haryana > against the proposed large SEZ by Reliance Industries, Karla area in Pune > district in Maharashtra. Of late, there is news of farmers' protest from > various SEZs from Gujarat and Tamilnadu, as well. > > Under the rubric of Globalization, when the neo-liberal offensive is > devastating the 'Culture and Commons' of the indigenous people of India > appropriating the land of the peasants in this process, thousands of acres > of land have been taken away from people, forcibly dispossessing millions of > Aadiwasis and Farmers in the name of high GDP growth and attracting foreign > direct investments. The whole issue of Special Economic Zones has to be seen > in the context of cataclysmic changes taking place in the global scale which > had devastating impact on third world societies. Much has been written on > the global restructuring by Civil Society Groups and the Political Left. > India shared the fate of most of the Third World societies where the > national liberation movements inspired hopes for millions of peasants that > they can lead a life of dignity free from the colonial yoke. The > post-independent journey of India started with a vision of self reliance and > egalitarianism with the state whose elected executives would play the role > of prime-movers. The Nehru Era saw 'Abolition of Landlordism and Investment > in Irrigation'. Land Reforms released the forces of production in the > countryside and the coming in of the Green Revolution brought in relative > prosperity in rural areas of Punjab, Haryana, Western U.P. and Coastal > Andhra, where high input intensive agriculture was adopted. This path of > "Nehruian" Model of growth had a flip side which the mainstream Media > concealed until social movements like Narmada Bachao, Koel Karo , > Kalinganagar, Kashipur, Kalahandi, Tehri, etc. bought the other side of > post-independent rural reality and the simmering discontent. This path of > heavy industrialization and emphasis on modern infra-structures created > massive displacement. According to various sources, by mid-nineties, there > were more than 40 million farmers and Aadiwasis who were displaced by > various mega projects like dams, mines, factories and industrial township. > This is a whooping and revealing figure of the number of people displaced > which was more than the population of England. As mentioned earlier, social > movements like Narmada and Tehri were indicators of the refusal of rural > masses to part with their land and homes in the name of development. As a > result of global restructuring. The Indian rulers adopted the neo-liberal > ideology ushered in through the new economic policies of 1991. All the > welfare provisions, concept of self-reliance, pro-farmers and labor regimes > were gradually dismantled, leaving vulnerable segments of the population > like women, dalits, farmers, Aadiwasis, etc. at the mercy of the market. > Thus, market became the new god in the era of Globalization. The Indian > rulers who had completely turned neo-liberal in the new millennium adopted > the Special Economic Zone Policy when the entire country was undergoing > acute agrarian crisis, the most horrifying symptom of which was the high > number of incidences of farmers committing suicide by mid 2005 more than > 1.5lakh ( hundred and fifty thousand ) farmers had committed suicide , this > phenomenon goes on unabated till today. Agriculture is having its lowest > growth rate since past five years . The Massive and forceful acquisition of > land had accelerated the on going misery and marginalization of the rural > population. As result farmers are up in arms. Special Economic Zones were > the logical culmination of anti-people, anti-Farmers path pursued by the > Indian rulers which has other hazards apart from the massive dispossession > of the farmers and rural artisans. Large scale land acquisition for > Mega-Industrial projects, infrastructure projects and SEZs is transforming > the whole of the rural scenario in the country from bad to worse. To cover > up the devastation, the State Governments are half- heartedly bringing > rehabilitation and re-settlement policies. The land acquisition by the > Government ostensibly in the name of Public Interest, is in fact > transferring thousands of acres of fertile land to Multi-national Mega > Corporations like Posco, Salim and Indian big business houses likes Tata, > Jindal, Ambani and Birla. Through this process of displacement, land and > livelihoods are being alienated from the farmers and other sections of the > population, as mentioned earlier. Tens of millions of farmers and rural > artisans have already been displaced in the name of development. > > Displacement has converted farmers, Adiwasis and rural artisans into > destitutes most of whom have been forced to become casual workers in urban > centres without any rights. Fear of displacement from their homes, from > their lands and livelihoods, from their community and thought of living the > rest of their lives as destitutes has suddenly become a reality for vast > masses of India. The very people, who according to the Government are > supposed to be benefiting from so called Industrialization in the form of R > & R benefits, jobs urban facilities, social and hospitals etc. are seen to > be opposing these policies the most. The fact is that no State Government to > have the intention and capacity for the rehabilitation of the displaced > people. The land grabbing through displacement is not only restricted to the > rural areas. In the urban areas, the slum dwellers are being forcibly > evicted to make way for city, beautification and gentrification, > establishment of huge malls, real estate development, widening of roads etc. > often without any compensation and alternate dwelling place for slum > dwellers. The slum dwellers of most of the large cities are now resorting to > protest movements against their growing dispossession and marginalization. > The establishment of SEZs is playing havoc with the rural population of > India. Primarily India is an agricultural country and more than 70% of > Indian people are dependent on agriculture and its ancillary activities. To > develop India any sensible policy will have to develop agriculture sector. > But for the past 60 years, The Indian ruling elite have never seriously > attempted apart from the high tech Green Revolution package, no attempt was > made to upgrade agricultural land both availability and quantitatively by > disturbing arable waste land to the poor and creating irrigation facilities. > Such measures would have increased agricultural production making farmers > prosperous which would have created demand for manufactured goods and > stimulated industrialization with employment opportunities, but instead > today the Indian agriculture is facing its worst crisis. The development of > India is impossible without the development of agriculture as in most > villages of India agriculture and allied livelihoods such as fishing, animal > husbandry, forestry are the only sustainable livelihoods for the majority of > the people. Today the Government is unable to provide any other sustainable > livelihood after taking away land and common property resources such as > forests, streams, ponds, grazing lands, etc. which are the basis of > agriculture and allied occupation. Implementation of pro-agri-business > agricultural policies in the name of Green Revolution imposition of GM > seeds, contract farming and corporate control of agricultural sector are the > basic elements of the neo-liberal agriculture policies which is extremely > harmful for most of the farmers and rural artisans. Farmers' suicides are > serious indications of this agrarian situation. This grave crisis will also > have a serious impact on food security for Indian rural population which is, > anyway, under tremendous strain. Therefore, the rural population is up in > arms to save their agricultural land, livelihood, common property resources > like forests, sources of water etc. We have to seriously campaign and > support the struggle for protection and restoration of Indian agriculture. > There is a necessity for instilling confidence amongst farmers and rural > artisans for alternative development models is possible different groups > across India are trying to implement alternate development models on a small > scale, different political forces, mass movements and civil society groups > working with people have their own version of alternative development models > on a small scale, different political forces, mass movements and civil > society groups working with people have their own version of alternative > development models. The farmers have realized that even in the prevailing > situation of agrarian crisis gripping the country there is no other option > but to stick to agriculture and allied occupations. Industrial development > of India has to be in the interest of the masses and it can only happen on > the basis of development of agriculture and the rural economy on the whole. > Therefore, the demand should be the development of agriculture and rural > economy in the interest of the vast masses of India. > > The forcible displacement of the people from their lands and livelihoods for > establishment of mega- industries and infra-structural projects and > establishments of exclusive economic enclaves by multi-national corporations > and Indian big business in the name of SEZs is the anti- poor, pro-national > and Inter-national Big Business. > > The Government of India has adopted policies which have left the urban and > rural poor including the medium farmers and urban lower middle classes in a > precarious situation when for even the basic necessities of life people have > increasingly become dependent on the market forces, which again are > controlled by the National and Inter-national big business houses viz. World > Bank, IMF, WTO, etc. The industrialization policy of the Government is not > aimed at supplementing the production capacity of those products which are > in demand by the masses, nor it is creating any additional employment for > the vast army of unemployed of the country as Mega- industries which are > encouraged by the Government and are established by the Global and Indian > big business are high-tech automated industries, having a very low > employment prospect. On the other hand, such industries are responsible for > large scale displacement and massive loss of employment. The present > emphasis is on those industries which would exhaust the mineral resources of > India in next 3 to 4 decades, while these semi-finalized and low value added > intermediate products will be exported for manufacturing high and costly > products which will be again imported to India at a huge cost. This > anti-farmer-pro-big-business-industrial and mining policy is encouraging > establishment of huge mineral based industries, industrial infrastructures > like roads, rail, power plant, water treatment plant, townships, SEZs, smart > cities, EPZs, etc. Especially the SEZs have resulted in farmers losing their > land and livelihoods. Massive unemployment is being caused, natural > resources are being exhausted at a rapid rate and nature is getting > devastated. The implementation of SEZ plicy is leading to creation of > exclusive zones where no laws of land are there to protect the rights of the > labour and that of the farmers. Infact these laws are anti-people. This path > of industrialization that is displacing vast masses of the farmers and rural > artisans, will spell disaster for the country as a whole. Therefore, the > establishment of SEZ is playing havoc with the lives of the entire rural > population including the adiwasis. This path of industrialization through > Foreign Direct Investment and Foreign Institutional Investment have given > priority for establishing SEZs throughout India solely for the super profits > of the International and National big business. For the establishment of > SEZs, the various state Governments have ruthlessly used the "Colonial 1894 > Land Acquisition Act", forcibly evacuating people, destroying their cultural > moorings, social peace and livelihood, all in the name of growth, while on > the other hand SEZs which have been described as a foreign territory in the > SEZ Act of 2005 have been given the status of separate enclaves where no law > of the land or Constitutional provisions will apply. The development > commissioner appointed by the State Government will govern the SEZ with > private security, own laws and own regimes of justice and maintenance of law > and order. Neither the Civil Laws and Labor Laws nor any other laws of land > will be honored in these enclaves. This status of separate foreign > territories enables the corporate houses to exploit labor ruthlessly. > Working conditions will be deteriorated; working hours will be arbitrarily > increased to 12 to 14 hours. No work safety measures will be taken. Since > the work in these zones is given to contractors, the workers will be paid > low wages. No payments for weekly offs, no lease with wages, no medical > leave, no Provident Fund, no ES, no recreational facilities, no gratuity, > almost no social security will be provided to the workers. Accidents in the > work places are bound to increase. No workmen's compensation will be paid. > Women workers will be even more exploited. > > The SEZs are the most advanced and deadliest weapons of the neo-liberal > re-structuring apart from dispossessions of millions of farmers and artisans > it devastates their cultural milieu and these enclaves here no laws of land > will apply is akin to re-colonization of the Third World. > > The massive outburst of anger of the people of Nandigram, the ongoing > struggle against POSCO SEZ in Jagatsinghpur, Orissa , the struggle in Raigar > and many other places and the country–wide resistance against forcible > acquisition of land by the Government for the SEZs to be developed by Indian > and International big businesses has forced the Government of India to > announced the rulers under the SEZ Act 2005, according to which the private > corporate sector will purchase land straight from the farmers even after > this decision of the Government of India everywhere Police is intervening on > behalf of the corporate sector the case in point is struggle against the > Korean giant POSCO SEZ in Orissa. After the local people confronted the > Posco officials, the police intervened on behalf of Posco with an intention > of terrorizing the people and forcing them to surrender their land, these > interventions of police force on behalf of the corporate sector against > struggling farmers happens all over India, the list is endless. This exposes > the dual face of the Central and State Government, who go out of their way > to acquire land for the corporate sector while mouthing pro-people platitude > in public platforms and legislatures. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > In the light of the above importance of the peasant resistance to the > Special Economic Zones, a study was undertaken to understand the concrete > reasons of farmers' opposition to the SEZs. The Maha-mumbai SEZ promoted by > Reliance Industries in Raigad District in Maharashtra and the Mahindra and > Mahidra SEZ promoted by Mahindra Group at Karla in Pune District of > Maharashtra were selected for the study. > > The field work was done between 20th, July, 2007 and 5th, September, 2007. > The methodology adopted was 'Qualitative" interviews of respondents from > different castes, occupations and gender in the Panvel, Pan and Uran Tehsils > of Raigad Diatricts and of 6 villages in Karla area of Maval Tehsil of Pune > district. > > In the next 20 days, the field data will be analyzed and the report will be > drafted. > > Pls send ur comments to asitredsalute at gmail.com > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 53, Issue 36 > ******************************************* > From manmeet85 at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 19:09:46 2007 From: manmeet85 at gmail.com (Manmeet Kaur) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:39:46 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Music for Harmony.. come join us!!! Message-ID: <9fc76fcf0712190539g67cef3a8y8064041dfa39c67c@mail.gmail.com> Greetings from Pravah! Pravah was set up post the demolition of the Babri Masjid by a group of young professionals from different fields. Pravah has been working with adolescents and youth since 1993 to build leadership for social change through innovative citizenship education and youth development. Our interventions are based on our core values of peace and non violence, secularism, equality, justice and respect for common spaces. Since 2002, Pravah's young volunteers have been organizing *"Encore: Music for Harmony"*, a day long event that celebrates and promotes the message of peace and harmony. It's a day where we invite people from different realms of the arts to come together to celebrate peace. There will be music, theatre, dance, some exhibits prepared by our volunteers, a space for expressing your feelings and a lot more. *As always, this youth led event promises to be filled with fun and inspiration. We would like to invite you and your family to join us in spreading the message of peace. We would love for you to come and help us make the event a success.* *Peace is not the mere absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence and justice...* *"Encore: Music for Harmony"* *Date- Sunday, 23**rd** December* *Venue - Dastakar Mela, Dilli Haat* *Time - 12:00 pm to 7:00 pm* We look forward to seeing you there… Thank you With warmest regards Manmeet Kaur Pravah A small note from our volunteers who have put this event together: *A thought from one of us, "Peace for me is a state of internal and external harmony; establishing a harmonious relationship with not just people around us but also our surroundings (both natural and constructed) as well as with our own inner selves. It's hard to sum it up in words..."* We also feel that 'Music' can speak the language of the world. The same set of notes arranged differently and sung in different languages by different voices produces a beautiful harmony, striking a deep chord in our hearts, that also cuts across numerous dividing lines, be they of class, caste, gender, race or age. Thus *'Encore- Music for Harmony',* a day long musical event to bring together diverse genres of music: popular, western, folk and instrumental along with a variety of other engaging performing arts like theatre, exhibition and games to reflect the idea of 'unity in diversity' and celebrate and spread the message of peace and harmony. This event provides us with the opportunity to interact, exchange ideas with different people and learn from each other. 'Music for Harmony' is a platform for us to talk about issues that we are passionate about through a range of creative media and an effort to break through the barriers of space and theme. Hence, helping us to enhance our skills of organizing, leading and facilitating, along with uniting us as a team as we rejoice and celebrate peace! So come join us and let us celebrate together! Schedule for the day *Encore: Music for Harmony* *12:00-12:15 *Introduction to Music for Harmony – Lets talk about Peace! *12:20-12:35 *Hameedji (Rajasthani classical and Hindustani classical)** *12:40-12:55 *Sanskriti School Duo –Pushaan and Shubh** * * *1:05-1:20 *Ishita – Youth Parliament** *1:25-1:45 *Bhramastra (KRM school)** *1:50-2:00 *Goonj** *2:10-2:20 *Chimbey (Tibetan classical)** *2:20-2:30 *Michael – (Tibetan traditional)** *2:35-2:45 *Punnu and Mukesh (Garhwali songs) ** *2:50-3:20 *Footloose** *3:30-3:50 *North Bengal tribal music - Bhawaia (Rajbanshee language) * * *3:50-4:00 *Koyal** *4:10-4:25 *Deshbandhu natak* * *4:30-5:00 *Manzil B* * *5:10-5:40 *Manchaley – Kutumb Foundation's Band** *5:50-6:10 *Pravah natak** *6:20-6:50 *Ekum Satyam** *7:00-7:30 *Sajid Akbar** *7:30 *Closing** From ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Wed Dec 19 20:54:53 2007 From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Britta Ohm) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 15:24:53 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Reminder: Call for Films: Goettingen International Ethnographic Film Festival Message-ID: Anfang der weitergeleiteten E-Mail: > Von: "Goettingen International Ethnographic Film Festival" > > Datum: 18. Dezember 2007 21:20:08 MEZ > An: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de > Betreff: Reminder: Call for Films: Goettingen International > Ethnographic Film Festival > Antwort an: info at gieff.de > > -------------- next part -------------- > Göttingen International Ethnographic Film Festival > 30.4. – 1.5.2008 >   > Call for Films: Submission deadline: 14 January 2008 >   > http://www.gieff.de/ >   > The festival promotes documentary cinema with a special emphasis on > new films, videos or interactive media (published after 1.1.2005) > dealing with socio-cultural processes in a wide sense of the term. > The festival is open to all filmmakers, but especially those coming > from anthropology, sociology, folklore and neighbouring disciplines. > It provides a great opportunity for international co-operation in > Visual Anthropology and documentary filmmaking. > The student film competition is one of the central events of the > festival. >   > The festival addresses film authors, producers, distributors, and > viewers. > It aims for discussions at the screenings and afterwards between the > various groups present to promote the intercultural dialogue on the > different aspects of film work. >   > The Festival is a meeting point of young students of anthropology, > sociology and media studies, who are interested in the use of film as > research method, mode of publishing and communicating research > results. > Göttingen International Ethnographic Film Festival e.V. > event at gieff.de > phone: +49/551/5024-170 > fax: +49/551/5024-322 >   >   > We wish you a Happy New Year > the GIEFF-Team > ___________________ Britta Ohm Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49/30/69507155 From cahen.x at levels9.com Wed Dec 19 23:59:13 2007 From: cahen.x at levels9.com (xavier cahen) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:29:13 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 17-12 to 31-12-2007 Message-ID: <47693DF8.3000008@levels9.com> pourinfos.org l'actualité du monde de l'art / daily Art news ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Monday 17 December 2007 to Monday, December 31, 2007 (included) ------------------------------------------------------------------- (mostly in french) Meilleurs voeux pour l'année 2008 ! Happy new year 2008! Feliz año nuevo 2008 ! Xavier for pourinfos.org 's Team @ 001 (18/12/2007) Residency: Residence of artists in Berlin, the country where the sky is always blue, Orleans, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35311-tit-Residence-Residence-d-artistes-plasticiens -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 002 (18/12/2007) Résidency: Artist-in-Residence program at IAMAS, Japon. http://pourinfos.org/art-35312-tit-Residence-Artist-in-Residence-program-at -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 003 (19/12/2007) Various: winners of the 15th edition of Price Videre, Quebec, Quebec, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35286-tit-Divers-laureats-de-la-15e-edition-des-Prix -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 004 (19/12/2007) Meetings: "SOMETHING YOU SHOULD KNOW: ARTISTES ET PRODUCTEURS AUJOURD'HUI" , Wednesday, December 19, 2007, Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35316-tit--SOMETHING-YOU-SHOULD-KNOW-ARTISTES-ET -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 005 (19/12/2007) Call: Studio Project #10, Market Gallery, Glasgow, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35347-tit--Studio-Project-10-Market-Gallery- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 006 (20/12/2007) Publication: number 9, revue Art Vif, Nice, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35257-tit--numero-9-revue-Art-Vif-Nice- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 007 (20/12/2007) Various: souscription 2007, Association Manifestement Peint Vite, Nantes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35289-tit-Divers-Appel-a-souscription-2007- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 008 (20/12/2007) Call: Symposium: The Futures of Space Exploration - An Arts and Humanities, Less Remote, Glasgow, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35308-tit--Symposium-The-Futures-of-Space -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 009 (20/12/2007) Call: Turbulence Commission: "The ShiftSpace Commissions Program", Turbulence, New York, Usa. http://pourinfos.org/art-35310-tit--Turbulence-Commission-The-ShiftSpace -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 010 (20/12/2007) Meetings: "Day 25 years of CEAQ, Study Center and on the Daily News, Dec. 20, 2007, Descartes University of Paris Sorbonne, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35318-tit--Journee-des-25-ans-du-CEAQ-Centre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 011 (20/12/2007) Job: Assistant(e) Web Publication, Pourinfos.org, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35329-tit--Assistant-e-Web-Pourinfos-org-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 012 (20/12/2007) Various:Right of ? Richard Leydier - following art Press Novembre 2007. http://pourinfos.org/art-35330-tit-Divers-Droit-de-65533-Richard-Leydier -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 013 (20/12/2007) Various: ARTS AUX POLES, three trips for artists were awarded, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35331-tit-Divers-ARTS-AUX-POLES-les-trois-sejours -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 014 (20/12/2007) Call: [esse 63] Call for Papers, revue esse arts + opinons, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35333-tit--esse-63-Appel-de-textes-Call-for -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 015 (20/12/2007) Call: Web Flash Festal, Centre Pompidou, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35335-tit--a-projet-Web-Flash-Festal-Centre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 016 (20/12/2007) Call: International Exhibition of Contemporary Art, Jeune Creation, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35336-tit--internationale-d-art-contemporain-Jeune -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 017 (20/12/2007) Call: Call for Experimental Video for public screening event, Falkirk events, Falkirk, Scotland, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35339-tit--Call-for-Experimental-Video-for-public -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 018 (20/12/2007) Call: kanonmedia: Art Following the Trend? Artists' Voices. XI Features and Call for Participation,kanonmedia, Vienna, Austria. http://pourinfos.org/art-35341-tit--kanonmedia-Art-Following-the-Trend- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 019 (20/12/2007) Call: R.I.E.N. Rencontres Itinerantes d'Expériences Nouvelles, University Lumieres Lyon 2, Lyon, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35343-tit-Appel-a-Participation-R-I-E-N- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 020 (20/12/2007) Residencies: artists, La Pommerie, Saint-Setiers, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35344-tit--d-artistes-La-Pommerie-Saint-Setiers- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 021 (20/12/2007) Call: Exhibition, Images a louer, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35345-tit--Images-a-louer-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 022 (20/12/2007) Call: Public Art Commission, The Storey, Lancaster, United kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35346-tit--Public-Art-Commission-The-Storey- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 023 (20/12/2007) Call: project IN/OUT X.O, workshop / production / exhibition, Citu, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35348-tit--appel-a-projet-IN-OUT-X-O-un -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 024 (20/12/2007) Call: nternational competition Content 360, BBC, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35349-tit--competition-internationale-Content-360- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 025 (21/12/2007) Call: [esse 64] Call for Papers, revue esse arts + opinons, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35332-tit--esse-64-Appel-de-textes-Call-for -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 026 (21/12/2007) Call: Festival ManifestO, 6th edition, ManifestO, visual arts festival appeals for autors for its next edition, Toulouse, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35334-tit--Festival-ManifestO-6eme-edition- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 027 (21/12/2007) Call: for contribution at the review Marges, « Irresponsabilité de l’art ? » "there is the irresponsibility of art? "Study Day at the INHA, University of Paris 8, Saint-Denis, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35337-tit--Appel-a-contribution-de-la-revue-Marges- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 028 (21/12/2007) Call: Joke - call-out, Vitrine Project, Otto-Prod./La Vitrine, Maribor , Slovenia. http://pourinfos.org/art-35338-tit--Joke-call-out-Vitrine-Project- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 029 (21/12/2007) Call: Call For Proposals: Iraqimemorial.org, Reno, Usa. http://pourinfos.org/art-35340-tit--Call-For-Proposals-Iraqimemorial-org- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 030 (21/12/2007) Call: Open Call: Urban Research on Film, Directors Lounge, Berlin, Germany. http://pourinfos.org/art-35342-tit--Open-Call-Urban-Research-on-Film- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 031 (22/12/2007) Residency: Call for Entries Rijksakademie Research Residency, Rijksakademie van beeldende kunsten, Amsterdam, Netherlands. http://pourinfos.org/art-35314-tit-Residence-Call-for-Entries-Rijksakademie -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 032 (22/12/2007) Publication: «SPECTATEUR» (spectator), no 80, ETC, a quarterly magazine of contemporary art, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35322-tit--SPECTATEUR-no-80-ETC-revue -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 033 (23/12/2007) Publication: On/off "Le net-art peut-il sortir du net?" (The net-art can escape from the net?), n°29, Magazine du CIAC, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-35326-tit--On-off-Le-net-art-peut-il-sortir-du -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 034 (23/12/2007) Job: art director, espace rural d'art contemporain, Fresnes-au-Mont, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35328-tit--recrute-son-sa-directeur-trice-espace -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 035 (24/12/2007) Publication: Neural n. 28 contents, Jodi, Casey Reas, Ryoiji Ikeda, Sebastian Luetgert ..., Roma, Italy. http://pourinfos.org/art-35324-tit--Neural-n-28-contents-Jodi-Casey-Reas- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 036 (25/12/2007) Call: International Poster Contest, the 16th edition, Graphisme dans la rue, Fontenay-sous-bois, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35350-tit--Concours-international-d-affiches-16eme -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 037 (26/12/2007) Publication: Objets temporels temporal object), Victor Burgin, editions Presses universitaires de Rennes, Rennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35320-tit--Objets-temporels-Victor-Burgin-editions -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 038 (27/12/2007) Publication: an Architecture of Interaction, Mondriaan Foundation and The Netherlands Foundation for Visual Arts, Design and Architecture, Amsterdam, Netherlands. http://pourinfos.org/art-35325-tit--an-Architecture-of-Interaction-Mondriaan -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 039 (28/12/2007) Publication: Hz #11, December, Stockholm, Sweden. http://pourinfos.org/art-35321-tit--Hz-11-December-Stockholm- -- XAVIER CAHEN -------------- cahen.x at levels9.com Paris France http://www.levels9.com _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 17:09:25 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:39:25 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Steve Kurtz: 3.5 years and still no "smoking gun" Message-ID: Below is an update from Lucia of http://caedefensefund.org Rolling into the 4th year of the US government's absurd "terrorism" case against artist Steve Kurtz... From: Lucia Sommer http://caedefensefund.org Hi everyone, A big Thank You to all of you who turned out today to support Professor Kurtz at in Federal Court in Buffalo - WE PACKED THE COURTROOM! Steve was incredibly moved and strengthened by the support, and the defense lawyers commented on how effective it was in showing that this case is one of concern to many citizens. As Prosecutor Hochul attempted to respond to defense attorney Paul Cambria's motions to dismiss the case -- including the fact that, according to the contract itself, no "crime" was committed -- the absurdity of the case was apparent for all to see. The highlight of this theater of the absurd (although it is difficult to choose) was perhaps when Judge Arcara ordered Prosecutor Hochul to produce the original contract between ATCC and the University of Pittsburgh. Apparently 3 1/2 years and millions of dollars was not enough time and resources for the government to procure this document, which Cambria pointed out was rather crucial to the government's entire "case." A new hearing is scheduled for January 18, 2008, to examine this document, as well as hear other motions; after that, the judge will rule on all the motions to dismiss. While we were encouraged by the hearing, we still don't expect to win these motions, since it is nearly impossible for judges to throw out Grand Jury indictments. Therefore we continue to prepare for trial, which is likely to take place this summer. Thank you again for your continued support, Lucia Sommer CAE Defense Fund http://caedefensefund.org From zigzackly at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 23:27:07 2007 From: zigzackly at gmail.com (peter griffin) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:57:07 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Prix Ars Electronica 2008 - Call for Entries In-Reply-To: <20071218082132.37CF8100BF@bender.aec.at> References: <20071218082132.37CF8100BF@bender.aec.at> Message-ID: <4d145a50712200956g8522a99y445ab3322477c66c@mail.gmail.com> This should be of interest to many on this list. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: communities at prixars.aec.at Date: 18 Dec 2007 13:51 Subject: Prix Ars Electronica 2008 - Call for Entries To: 00000188 at bender.aec.at Dear Friend and Participant of Prix Ars Electronica, The 22nd Prix Ars Electronica - International Competition for CyberArts is open for entries now! We kindly invite you to submit your latest projects! If you know any further interesting works we'll be happy to get your recommendation! Prix Ars Electronica 2008 Online Submission Deadline: March 7, 2008 Contact: info at prixars.aec.at Total Prize Money: € 115.000,- Categories: Computeranimation / Film / VFX; Digital Musics; Interactive Art; Hybrid Art; Digital Communities; Media.Art.Research Award; u19 - freestyle computing More details about all categories and online submission are available only online at: DIGITAL COMMUNITIES The "Digital Communities" category will honor important achievements by digital communities well as innovative artistic approaches towards web-based communities. This category focuses attention on the wide-ranging social and artistic impact of the Internet as well as on the latest developments in the fields of social software, ubiquitous computing, mobile communications andwireless networks. Special attention goes to community-related "net.art". "Digital Communities" spotlights bold and inspired innovations impacting human coexistence, bridging the geographical as well as gender-based digital divide and cultural conflicts, sustaining cultural diversity and the freedom of artistic expression or creating outstanding social software and enhancing accessibility of technological-social infrastructure. This category showcases the political and artistic potential of digital and networked systems and is thus designed as a forum for the consideration of a broad spectrum of projects, programs, artworks, initiatives and phenomena in which social and artistic innovation is taking place, as it were, in real time. Please feel free to forward this to all interesting/ed parties. With best regards, Bianca Petscher on the behalf of the Prix Ars Electronica 2008 Team Bianca Petscher Organisation Prix Ars Electronica - --------------------------------------- Ars Electronica Linz GmbH Hauptstraße 2-4 4040 Linz, Austria Telefon: 0043-732-7272-79 Fax: 0043-732-7272-674 E-Mail: info at prixars.aec.at http://prixars.aec.at - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you don't want to receive the AEC Newsletter any more, you can unsubscribe by sending a mail to 00000188-unsubscribe at listsrv.aec.at with the text "unsubscribe" in the subject: line - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Impressum: Ars Electronica Linz GmbH Hauptstraße 2 A-4040 Linz Tel. +43.732.7272.0 Fax +43.732.7272.2 E-Mail: info at aec.at From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 22:43:55 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:13:55 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rs125 crore spent on Mutton in one day in Kashmir.... Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> *Kashmir's Bakr Eid spend crosses Rs125 crore * http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1140648 "...... More than four lakh animals will be slaughtered in Kashmir; around 70,000 in Srinagar alone. "People have spent huge amounts of money on buying animals for offering sacrifices this Eid. We have fixed a rate of Rs90 per kg of meat. More than 24 lakh kgs of meat will be distributed," said Dr Shafat Kakroo, general manager J&K Sheep Development Board... ........" And they have the gall to say that they are economically impoverished....and then our PM Dr. Singh attributes the emergence of terrorism to economic backwardness.......What CoolAid is he drinking? From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 10:53:27 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 05:23:27 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Chinkara Gazelle Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712212123o7aeb5bbao6e63aaa49bb0aee3@mail.gmail.com> http://in.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/19guest.htm From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 13:57:16 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:27:16 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Amusement=E2=80=A6_But_not_for_everybody!?= =?utf-8?q?!!?= Message-ID: <476D17BB.9010409@gmail.com> Paper Presented by Sumesh Mangalassery , an Expert panel Member on Tourism on peoples tribunal on tsunami Rehabilitation in Chennai December 21-22 December 2007 Amusement… But not for everybody!!! An analysis on Post Tsunami Tourism Developments in Tamil Nadu http://voicesfromthemargins.com/node/29 Sumesh Mangalassery The December 2004 tsunami has triggered many conflicts and contradictions regarding the use of resources and setting of priorities in the coastal areas. Tsunami also has triggered a lot of conflicts and contradictions to be based on the access to the resources such as sea, land, water and sharing of benefits. In tourism areas these conflicts are more evident and rigorous. After 3 years of tsunami, the current developments in the coastal areas are questioning the survival of fishermen communities. Someone could observe from the testimonies presented here in the People’s tribunal that the basic survivals of the fishing communities are at stake due to the pressure over their resources. At any stage of rehabilitation and reconstruction process, the customary rights of the fishing community over coastal land, sea and their resources were not recognized and discussed. This subject has been considerably neglected in the whole process and debates. In the aftermath of the tsunami, the still-traumatised residents were pressurised to leave the coastline to “safer’’ places with the promise that they will be given new homes. The government machinery went on a drive to collect signatures that fishermen and other communities were willing to shift. Role of International Financial Institutions and tourism Coastal tourism development and activities in Tamil Nadu are triggering these conflicts. In the process of tsunami rehabilitation and reconstruction availability of land was very limited. In the East Coast Road (ECR) especially from Chennai to Mahabalipuram these clashes are more rigorous and visible because of the development of tourism and other infrastructure. The land value has shoot up and plenty of IT parks, hotels, resorts and amusement parks, which have been established on both sides of the highway. The occupational and livelihood space of the fisher folk has been replaced as recreational space for the upper middle class of the society. The interests of communities have been significantly sidelined in the reconstruction and rehabilitation process. The government of Tamil Nadu and International Financial Institutions (IFI) like Asian development Bank (ADB) and World Bank who financed this project claiming that this road brought development and many employment opportunities to this region. But at the same time the involvement of fishing community in these so called developments is minimal or totally lacking. They are totally marginalized in this development process. And their access to to the resources is considerably denied. It is also noted that this highway is increased the vulnerability of the communities towards natural and man made disasters. It was very visible during the flood situation last year. The negative impacts of tourism such as environmental degradation, sex tourism and child abuse are rampant in these areas. The Women and Child Development Minister Renuka Chowdhury said in a written reply in Parliament that studies conducted by the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) and National Commission for Women (NCW) shows that in the name of pilgrim, heritage and coastal tourism, sexual exploitation of children is quite widespread in Tamil Nadu(Source : Sify news – 14th Oct. 2007). Now government is decided to expand the East Coast highway from Pondicheri to Kanyakumari with the support of World Bank. Earlier, the East coast Road from Chennai to Cuddalore for 166 Km via Pondhichery was improved to two-lane facility with Asian Development Bank loan of US $ 24.47 million in 1993-98.This new project is a part of ECR from Chennai to Kanyakumari for 732 km. The WB approved a US $ 348 million loan to help improve the quality, capacity and safety of the road network in the south Indian state of TN (WB press release no. 2003/426/SAR). Part of this expansion is presented as a post tsunami reconstruction activity by government. Government and IFIs should properly analyse the impact of these development projects to the fishing communities and conduct a socio economic analysis before expanding this highway to other coastal regions. Fisher people fear that this expansion will extend these conflicts and contradictions to other areas too. It is important to see that the government is not keen to organise any consultation process with communities. The first phase of the project it self was strongly opposed by the communities. Coastal Tourism The Policy note of Tourism 2005 – 06 by Tamil Nadu tourism department clearly shows the intention of the government to bring private investment to the coastal area. Setting up of amusement parks and other facilities with private participation in the coastline has been outlined as strategy for tourism development. In the post tsunami livelihood restoration plan, eco - tourism is one of the top options among the plans. The government and international agencies like Asian Development Bank, World Bank and industry body like Confederation of Indian Industry (CII) identified tourism is one of the alternative livelihood options for coastal communities. People of Srinivasapuram near the posh Marina Beach in Chennai where the tsunami claimed maximum number of victims in the city, are facing an eviction in the name of Coastal Regulation Zone Notification (CRZ) 1991. After the tsunami they received an eviction order despite a stay from Madras High Court against any such move. It is reported that authorities want to develop tourism facilities here to woo tourists. At the same time right on the Adyar creek (hardly 50 mt from Srinivasapuram), a luxury hotel is being built. If the Coastal Regulation Zone is not applicable to the hotel, one wonders why the fishermen with their traditional right to the land are being evicted. The condition in the CRZ that those involved in customary trades (such as fishing) could continue within the 500-mt mark is being ignored. In the tribunal many people pointed out that the fund for tsunami reconstruction and rehabilitation has been misused by authorities for tourism development. Role of forest department and coast guard It is interesting to know that many of the coastal conservation activities being undertaken by the forest department. Report says that the firewood collection of fisher folk in many areas has been prevented by the forest department. The coast guard is also showing some new interests in terms of protecting the coast .These new interest clearly shows that the pressure over resources are high and many agencies and interests are claiming their stake. In this context it is very important for the fisher folk to assert their customary right over coastal land and their resources. Double Standards One hand state government is trying to woo private investments to the coast. On the other hand they had given clear guidelines to the communities on the reconstruction of houses and other facilities, that indicates that all reconstruction should take place over 200 meters from the sea. The people living on the coast suspect the land within that 200 meter zone is being kept for big hotels and private investors. The government is strategically preventing those fishing families who wish to rebuild their homes on the coast, in the name of (potential) future natural disasters; at the same time, it’s encouraging the opening of both new and rebuilt beachfront tourist hotels and other tourist facilities. The new policies introducing related to coast is also detrimental to the interests of the coastal communities. The draft Coastal Zone Management Plan concept note 2007 by Ministry of Environment and Forests (MOEF) does not acknowledge the traditional and customary rights of fishing communities in the coastal zone. At the same time it suggests many exemptions for industries like tourism in the coast. Fishing community is arguing that MOEF is trying to undermine the existing Coastal Regulation Zone notification 1991 with the new proposed Coastal Zone Management Plan (CZMP) to help tourism and protect the interests of tourism lobby. Here it is very clear that in the name of a human tragedy many of the planned liberalization proposals will be revived and implemented with little dialogue and debate. This shows government’s double standards towards industry and communities even in the days of their crisis. State is justifying this injustice in the name of safety and rehabilitation. Coastal communities are preparing to face natural disasters but they are definitely not prepared to face a man made disaster like mass tourism!!! -ENDs- ****************** (Paper presented in the expert panel presentation in People’s Tribunal on Tsunami rehabilitation after 3 years on 21 – 22nd December 2007, ICSA, Chennai organized by Voices from The Margins) Sumesh Mangalassery is a tourism researcher and an active member of the voluntary initiative KABANI, the other direction, working in tourism issues. He can be contacted at sumeshmang at yahoo.com OR www.kabani.org From turbulence at turbulence.org Sat Dec 22 17:56:08 2007 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:26:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Once Again + Happy Holidays Message-ID: <000f01c84425$b08082f0$118188d0$@org> Dear Friends, We're 10 days away from the end of our 2007 fundraising campaign. Our goal is to raise $25,000 by the end of the year - we still have a long way to go. We know that many of you are struggling as much as we are. However, if each of you were to donate a mere $5.00, we would succeed. Please go to Turbulence (http://turbulence.org) right now to find out how. It's easy! Happy Holidays and Warm Regards, Jo and Helen Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org New American Radio: http://somewhere.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 18:15:37 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:45:37 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rs125 crore spent on Mutton in one day in Kashmir.... In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990712220445o79e28d47p10a541b6b102916d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, It's time we took a 'reality check' Is a well known fact in this country that loans are taken on deaths, marriages, occasions, etc to fulfill desires of our children (one of the reasons that the Indian Govt stopped the practice of money lenders). There are many things I do without so that my children can have more. Any parent would want joy for his / her children. Povert (or economic backwardness) exists as a fact in India. In a hill state, you may have 50 acres across terraced mountains without direct access to water and in loans to buy fertilizer, seeds, etc and no way to run a tractor on those lands as the very style of terraced farming needs manual labour. In addition, the young have left for 'glamorous' town jobs. Travel to Mumbai by train and look at the slums leading in to that city - each hutment there with colour TVs, fridges, etc - and compare it to one in say Kolkatta. Forget Manmohan Singh's 'CoolAid'. Travel around and take a look at what level our infrastructure across the country, middlemen, religion and bureaucracy (along with a host of different 'minorities' each asking for / getting compensation) allows the freedom to work freely. Rgds, Partha ....................................... On Dec 21, 2007 10:43 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > *Kashmir's Bakr Eid spend crosses Rs125 crore * > http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1140648 > > > "...... > > More than four lakh animals will be slaughtered in Kashmir; around 70,000 > in > Srinagar alone. "People have spent huge amounts of money on buying animals > for offering sacrifices this Eid. We have fixed a rate of Rs90 per kg of > meat. More than 24 lakh kgs of meat will be distributed," said Dr Shafat > Kakroo, general manager J&K Sheep Development Board... > > ........" > > > > And they have the gall to say that they are economically > impoverished....and > then our PM Dr. Singh attributes the emergence of terrorism to economic > backwardness.......What CoolAid is he drinking? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Sat Dec 22 19:08:45 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:38:45 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rs125 crore spent on Mutton in one day in Kashmir.... In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <108137.98299.qm@web8402.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan Let me tell you spending Rs.125 crore on animal slaughter has nothing to do with poverty in Kashmir or anywhere else. On Baqr Eid, Muslims everywhere (even the poor ones) would spend huge sums of money to express their religous fervour. Forget Kashmir, the statistics on animal slaughter during Eid in other places such as UP or Delhi will also astonish you. In the context of development, poverty should be defined not as the lack of money, but the lack of proper managment of money. And that's what the PM thinks of when he mentions backwardness. --- Pawan Durani wrote: > *Kashmir's Bakr Eid spend crosses Rs125 crore * > http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1140648 > > > "...... > > More than four lakh animals will be slaughtered in > Kashmir; around 70,000 in > Srinagar alone. "People have spent huge amounts of > money on buying animals > for offering sacrifices this Eid. We have fixed a > rate of Rs90 per kg of > meat. More than 24 lakh kgs of meat will be > distributed," said Dr Shafat > Kakroo, general manager J&K Sheep Development > Board... > > ........" > > > > And they have the gall to say that they are > economically impoverished....and > then our PM Dr. Singh attributes the emergence of > terrorism to economic > backwardness.......What CoolAid is he drinking? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 19:23:51 2007 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:53:51 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] why is IIC so meek to bow down before Bajrang Dal Message-ID: <73eb60090712220553n18c4dd12i57339929295f9c7d@mail.gmail.com> Is this the same city that is giving shelter to Tasleema Nasreen? ---- Bajrang Dal threat forces IIC to suspend Hussain show 22 Dec 2007, 1818 hrs IST, PTI NEW DELHI: An exhibition of acclaimed painter M F Hussain, whose allegedly obscene portrayal of Hindu Goddesses had invited the wrath of Sangh Parivar, ran into rough weather in the national capital on Saturday after organisers received a threat purportedly from Bajrang Dal. The India International Centre, where Hussain's 'Mughal India' painting series are on display, suspended the exhibition for Saturday after it received the threats from Bajrang Dal, sources said. The IIC had received the Bajrang Dal threat which said it has to face "serious consequences" if the capital's high-profile cultural organisation continued to exhibit the works of the controversial artist, they said. A group of youth, claiming to be members of the Hindutva outfit, went to the IIC and threatened the officials that they would have to face consequences if they continue with the hosting of this show, sources added. Bajrang Dal Delhi unit president Ashok Kapur claimed the outfit's youth had gone to the venue to enquire about the exhibition and had told the exhibitors that Hussain had insulted India's culture and his works should not be displayed here. A decision whether to restart the exhibition, which contains 20 paintings permanently displayed at Fida Museum in London, will be taken at a meeting of the IIC Directors later. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Bajrang_Dal_threat_forces_IIC_to_suspend_Hussain_show/articleshow/2643436.cms From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 20:46:15 2007 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:16:15 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] PRESS RELEASE : Tsunami used as the Opportunity for Vested Interests : Justice H Suresh Message-ID: <476D7793.8030407@gmail.com> PRESS RELEASE Tsunami used as an opportunity by vested interests– Justice H. Suresh 22/12/2007CHENNAI: In the concluding session of the two day people’s tribunal on the status of rehabilitation of tsunami, Justice H.Suresh stated that the tsunami relief work is used as an opportunity to exploit people. The tribunal organised by the Voices from the margins, a broad platform of organization of marginalized communities and support groups exposed many discrepancies and shortcomings in the tsunami rehabilitation after three years of the tsunami. Jury panel consisted of Justice Mr. H. Suresh (retired judge, Mumbai High Court) , Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer (eminent social activist and winner of Right to Livelihood award), Dr. K.N.Panikkar (historian and former vice Chancellor, Sankaracharya University) and Dr.Yasodha Shanmugasundaram (former vice Chancellor, Mother Teresa Women’s University).The tribunal pointed out that the disaster can be natural but the crisis followed by disaster is definitely man made and it is the failure of the government to meet its obligation as per the constitution of our country. The Jury panel observed that the ocean belongs to the communities who are living on the coast and they have a fundamental right to live there. Building any type of walls on the coast is the denial of fisher people’s right to livelihood. Justice Suresh was astonished to the fact that the survivors of tsunami are still living under pathetic conditions in what is known as ‘temporary shelters’ after three years of tsunami. The present condition of tsunami survivors is a clear violation of article 21 of the Indian constitution that is right to live, jury panel added. The Jury strongly felt the urgent need to protect the fishing community and their customary right to coast and sea. More than 50 tsunami survivors from the coast of Tamil Nadu and Pondicherry presented their testimonies and case studies which highlighted the issues of displacement and denial of rights, livelihood, gender, Coastal Zone Regulation, tourism issues and resource utalisation and accountability. Dr.Yasodha highlighted the gender discrimination and exclusion of women in the compensation and rehabilitation process of tsunami. She pointed out that women should part of the decision making process in order to eliminate discrimination. Ossie Fernandes of Human Right Foundation and member of expert panel of the people’s tribunal stated that the proposed Coastal Zone Management Plan concept note is not in favour of the fisher folk and the original 1991 Coastal Regulation Zone notification has to be reinforced. Sumesh Mangalassery an expert panel member questioned the agenda and the role of International Financial Institutions like World Bank and Asian Development Bank in the context of tsunami to develop tourism infrastructure in the coast. The increasing sex tourism and rampant child sexual abuse became a matter of concern during the tribunal Conveners of the tribunal Mr. S.M.Prithiviraj and Poet Malathy Maitri stated that the tribunal report will be used to pressurize the government to initiate meaningful remedial action and utilize the tsunami relief fund for the welfare of fisher people. For More details call +91 98430 80963 , +91 9367757356 From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 23:33:28 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:03:28 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima Nasreen, The Vanishing Message-ID: Two new essays by Taslima Nasreen are posted here: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/22/vanishing/ The Vanishing Banished Within and Without From vrjogi at hotmail.com Sun Dec 23 10:51:06 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 05:21:06 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo seculars! you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! vedavati _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 11:07:00 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 05:37:00 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: Hi Vedavati,I do not understand what you mean by victory to Hindus? Can you please explain? Also, are gujjus Hindus? I have gujju muslim friends so maybe it's time for me to call and congratulate them as well. Look forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 23, 2007 10:50 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From vadhimoolam at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 11:33:08 2007 From: vadhimoolam at gmail.com (Vetrivel Adhimoolam) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 06:03:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com><602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> Victory for Hindus? I can't help but bursting in to laughing! Joke of the twenty first century. Interestingly, such jokes are being cracked in this forum. Terms like sudo-secular is hardly going to hurt sensible intellectuals. Vetri. ----- Original Message ----- From: Vedavati Jogi To: reader-list at sarai.net ; tapasrayx at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo seculars! you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! vedavati _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 11:52:01 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 06:22:01 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] At Last The Inevitable, Statues Stolen From Airport Tarmac Message-ID: At Last The Inevitable, Statues Stolen From Airport Tarmac It is now confirmed that approximately 2 am, the night of Eid, one of the 13 crates in the second shipment of artifacts to Musee Guimet was stolen from the tarmac of ZIA International Airport. Details here: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/23/missing-statues/ From babuubab at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 12:54:38 2007 From: babuubab at gmail.com (Babu Sundara) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 07:24:38 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rs125 crore spent on Mutton in one day in Kashmir.... In-Reply-To: <108137.98299.qm@web8402.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> <108137.98299.qm@web8402.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <66ec95310712222324w8200f99u7ac4c80665970c0c@mail.gmail.com> Friends, I find several distinct issues likes like rituals, poverty, finance management, role of state, wastage, etc are being mixed up in this discussion. However, I do understand the linkages. To go back to the initial point .......on meat consumption on "religious" festival/day...... be it Muslims, Meatarian Hindus or Christians..........the consumption would be obviously proportional to the population of respective social groups and their ritual systems........if you go by the population of J&K and the statistics of 24 lakhs kg being consumed on Eid celebration....then the consumptions is very less for state which has 80 lakh population with Muslim majority .... ...and further....if one is aware of the Kashmiri cuisine.....wazwaan......then the quantity of meat is self explanatory . On the other hand if you want to go into the economy of wasting food products....then please consider, that these meat is consumed by people....unlike milk, sandal, turmeric, honey, oil, rose water, drinking water, etc that is poured on statues, coconut and pumpkins that are broken in front of street temples, trees and leaves that are cut for decoration, and beyond all statues that are dumped in rivers........please also take into account the lavish expenses during deaths.......burning pyre with sandal wood and ghee............the extravagant wastes during weddings of all communities.........if you want to draw link to ritual and poverty.....then please dont underestimate dowries...........lot of poor Brahmins of south India suffered because they could not generated money for the diamond nose and ear ring...which was considered minimum with every bride..........on the issue of Kashmiri poverty......the Kashmiris them selves claim that they are actually rich and the Indian/central state/government has kept them in the vicious cycle of poverty.......... On PM's statement with regard to poverty and militancy......its just the same old unproductive rhetoric.... regards, Sundara babu On 22/12/2007, S.Fatima wrote: > Dear Pawan > Let me tell you spending Rs.125 crore on animal > slaughter has nothing to do with poverty in Kashmir or > anywhere else. On Baqr Eid, Muslims everywhere (even > the poor ones) would spend huge sums of money to > express their religous fervour. Forget Kashmir, the > statistics on animal slaughter during Eid in other > places such as UP or Delhi will also astonish you. > > In the context of development, poverty should be > defined not as the lack of money, but the lack of > proper managment of money. And that's what the PM > thinks of when he mentions backwardness. > > > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > *Kashmir's Bakr Eid spend crosses Rs125 crore * > > http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1140648 > > > > > > "...... > > > > More than four lakh animals will be slaughtered in > > Kashmir; around 70,000 in > > Srinagar alone. "People have spent huge amounts of > > money on buying animals > > for offering sacrifices this Eid. We have fixed a > > rate of Rs90 per kg of > > meat. More than 24 lakh kgs of meat will be > > distributed," said Dr Shafat > > Kakroo, general manager J&K Sheep Development > > Board... > > > > ........" > > > > > > > > And they have the gall to say that they are > > economically impoverished....and > > then our PM Dr. Singh attributes the emergence of > > terrorism to economic > > backwardness.......What CoolAid is he drinking? > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- SUNDARA BABU NAGAPPAN Mob: +91-9811744919 From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 13:00:42 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 07:30:42 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima, The Vanishing (full text) Message-ID: Apologies, the URL I sent earlier has been deleted from Drishtipat blog. Here is the full text in body of email. Banished Within and Without Taslima Nasreen Although I was not born an Indian there is very little about my appearance, my tastes, my habits and my traditions to distinguish me from a daughter of the soil. Had I been born some years earlier than I was, I would have been an Indian in every sense of the term. My father was born before partition; the strange history of this subcontinent made him a citizen of three states, his daughter a national of two. In a village in what was then East Bengal, there once lived a poor farmer by the name of Haradhan Sarkar, one of whose sons, Komol, driven to fury by zamindari oppression, converted to Islam and became Kamal. I belong to this family. Haradhan Sarkar was my great-grandfather's father. Haradhan's other descendents obviously moved to India either during or after partition and became citizens of this country. My grandfather, a Muslim, did not. When I was a child, the notion of the once fashionable theory of pan-Islamic had been exploded by East Pakistani Muslims fighting their West Pakistani coreligionists. Our struggle was for Bengali nationalism and secularism. Even though I was born well after partition, the notion of undivided India held me in thrall. I wrote a number of poems and stories lamenting the loss of undivided Bengal, indeed undivided India even before I visited this country. I simply could not bring myself to accept the bit of barbed wire that kept families and friends apart even though they shared a common language and culture. What hurt most was that this wire had been secured by religion. By my early teens I had forsaken religion and turned towards secular humanism and feminism which sprang from within me and were in no way artificially imposed. My father, a man with a modern scientific outlook, encouraged me to introspect and as I grew older I broke away not just from religion but also from all the traditions and customs, indeed the very culture, which constantly oppressed, suppressed and denigrated women. When I first visited India, specifically West Bengal, in 1989, I did not for an instant think I was in a foreign land. From the moment I set foot on Indian soil, I knew I belonged here and that it was, in some fundamental way, inseparable from the land I called my own. The reason for this was not my Hindu forebear. The reason was not that one of India's many cultures is my own or that I speak one of her many languages or that I look Indian. It is because the values and traditions of India are embedded deeply within me. These values and traditions are a manifestation of the history of the subcontinent. I am a victim of that history. Then again, I have been enriched and enlivened by it, if one can call it so. I am a victim of its poverty, colonial legacy, faiths, communalism, violence, bloodshed, partition, migrations, exodus, riots, wars and even theories of nationhood. I have been hardened further by my life and experiences in a dirty, poverty- and famine-stricken, ill-governed theocracy called Bangladesh. The intolerance, fanaticism and bigotry of Islamic fundamentalists forced me to leave Bangladesh, herself a victim of the subcontinent's history. I was forced to go into exile; the doors of my own country slammed shut on my face for good. Since that moment I sought refuge in India. When I was finally allowed entry, not for an instant did I think I was in an alien land. Why did I not think so; especially when every other country in Asia, Europe and America felt alien to me? Even after spending twelve years in Europe I could not think of it as my home. It took less than a year to think of India as my home. Is it because we, India and I, share a common history? Had East Bengal remained a province of undivided India would the state have tolerated an attack on basic human freedoms and values and the call for the death by hanging of a secular writer by the proponents of fundamentalist Islam and self-seeking politicians? How would a secular democracy have reacted to this threat against one of its own? Or is the burden of defending human and democratic values solely a European or American concern? The gates of India remained firmly shut when I needed her shelter the most. The Europeans welcomed me with open arms. Yet, in Europe I always considered myself a stranger, an outsider. After twelve long years in exile when I arrived in India it felt as though I had been resurrected from some lonely grave. I knew this land, I knew the people, I had grown up somewhere very similar, almost indistinguishable. I felt the need to do something for this land and its people. There was a burning desire within me to see that women become educated and independent, that they stand up for and demand their rights and freedom. I wanted my writing to invigorate and contribute in some way to the empowerment of these women who had always been oppressed and suppressed. In the meanwhile, a few Islamic fundamentalists in Hyderabad chose to launch a physical attack upon me. The decision to attack me was motivated by the desire to gain popularity among the local masses. "A woman by the name of Taslima Nasrin has launched a vicious attack upon Islam and is all set to destroy the tenets of the faith. Therefore, Islam must be protected from this woman and the only way to do so is to kill her. Her death will bring many rewards: millions as fatwa bounty in this world, salvation and unparalleled delights in the next." This is the manner in which Islamic fundamentalists in secular India are attempting to entice poor, uneducated, uninformed Muslims while simultaneously looking to solidify their vote bank within the community. After hearing of the incident in Hyderabad, fundamentalist leaders in West Bengal, where I live, became so excited that they wasted no time in issuing fatwas against me and calling for my head. Students from madrasas who did not even know of my existence joined the fray. They knew of my blasphemy without having read a single one of my books. How did they know? Because their leaders had assured them that I had made it my mission to destroy Islam. Therefore, it was their individual and collective responsibility to protect and preserve their faith. Can one find a more perfect example of brainwashing? While their knowledge of my work may be infinitesimal, their knowledge of Islam is equally so and they have turned their faith into a commodity for their own base ends. Almost twenty per cent of India's population is Muslim and, unfortunately, the most vocal representatives of this considerable community are fundamentalists. Educated, civilized, cultured and secular people from the Muslim community are not regarded as representative of the community . What can be a greater tragedy than this? A greater tragedy, arguably, is that I may have to endure in progressive India, indeed in West Bengal, what I had to endure in Bangladesh. I live practically under house arrest. No public place is allegedly safe for me any longer. Not even the homes of friends are above suspicion, nothing is above suspicion. Even stepping out for a walk is considered unsafe. It is felt that I should spend my days in a poorly lit room grappling with shadows. Those who threaten to kill me are allowed by the state to spew their venom. They have tacitly been given the rights to do whatever they desire from disturbing the peace with their demonstrations to terrorizing the common man in the name of their faith. Those that oppose them and their unholy brand of communalism, those who take a stance against injustice and untruth are silenced in invidious ways. I am warned both implicitly and explicitly that, for example, a fundamentalists' demonstration is about to take place and it would be best for all concerned if I quietly left the city. Of course, do return by all means, but only when the situation has calmed down, I am advised. But will the situation ever calm down? For the last thirteen years I have been waiting for the situation to calm down. I was told the same thing when I left Bangladesh to go into exile. I refuse to leave because to leave would be to accept defeat and hand the fundamentalists the victory they have always desired. It would spell defeat for the freedom of expression, independence of thought, democracy and secularism. I simply refuse to allow them this victory. If they are eventually victorious, the loss will be as much mine as India's. If India gives in to the fundamentalists' demand to deport me, the list of demands will become an endless one. A deportation today, a ban tomorrow, an execution the day after. Where will it cease? They will pursue their agenda with boundless enthusiasm knowing that victory is certain. And, of course, the secular state and its secular custodians will bow down to every fundamentalist's every whim and fancy. Giving in to their demands is not a solution and any attempt to appease them makes them even more dangerous and pernicious. Even in my worst nightmares I had not imagined that I would be persecuted in India as I was in Bangladesh. Persecuted by the majority in one and a minority in another, but persecuted just the same. The bigotry, the intolerance, the death threats, the terrors: all the same. I often wonder what good it would do them to kill me. The fundamentalists are very well aware that it may bring them some benefit but will do nothing for the cause of Islam. Islam will remain as it has always remained. Neither I nor any other individual has the ability to destabilize Islam. The face of fundamentalism, its language and its intentions are the same the world over: to grab civilization by the scruff of its neck and drag it back a few millennia kicking and screaming. My world is gradually shrinking. I, who once roamed the streets without a care in the world, am now shackled. Always outspoken, I am now silenced, unable to demonstrate, left without the means of protesting for what I hold dear. Film festivals, concerts and plays all continue around me but I cannot participate. I spend my existence surrounded by walls: a prisoner. But I refuse to acknowledge this as my destiny. I still believe that one day I will be able to resume the life I once enjoyed. I still believe that India, unlike Bangladesh, will triumph over fundamentalism. I still believe that I will find shelter and solace here. The love and affection of Indians is my true shelter and solace. I still believe I will be able to spend the rest of my life here free of cares and worries. I love this country. I treat this land as my own. If I were to be ejected from this country it would amount to the cold-blooded murder of my most cherished ideals, perhaps a fate far worse than I could meet at the hands of any fundamentalist. I have nowhere to go, no country or home to return to. India is my country, India is my home. How much more will I have to endure at the hands of fundamentalists and their vote-grabbing political allies for the cardinal sin of daring to articulate the truth? If the subcontinent turns its back on me I have nowhere to go, no means to survive. Even after all that has happened, I still believe, I still dream, that for a sincere, honest, secular writer, India is the safest refuge, the only refuge. Kolkata 18 september ------ The Vanishing Taslima Nasreen Where am I? I am certain no one will believe me if I say I have no answer to this apparently straightforward question. They may believe what they wish, but the truth is I just do not know. I don't even know how I am. Sometimes I even appear to forget my own existence. I am like the living dead: benumbed; robbed of the pleasure of existence and experience; unable to move beyond the claustrophobic confines of my room. Day and night, night and day. Death becomes an intimate. We embrace. Yes, this is how I have been surviving. This did not begin the other day when I was bundled out of Kolkata. This has been going on for a while. It is like a slow and lingering death, like sipping delicately from a cupful of slow-acting poison that is gradually killing all my faculties. This is a conspiracy to murder my essence, my being, once so courageous, so brave, so dynamic, so playful. I realize what is going on around me but am utterly helpless, despite my best efforts, to wage a battle on my own behalf. I am merely a disembodied voice. Those who once stood by me have disappeared into the darkness. I ask myself: what heinous crime have I committed? Why am I here, in this singularly unenviable position? What sort of life is this where I can neither cross my own threshold nor know the joys of human company. What crime have I committed that I have to spend my life hidden away, relegated to the shadows? For what crimes am I being punished by this society, this land, this world? I wrote of my beliefs and my convictions. I used words, not violence, to express my ideas. I did not take recourse to pelting stones or bloodshed to make my point. Yet, I am considered a criminal. I am being persecuted because it was felt that the right of others to express their opinions was more legitimate than mine. To disobey the powers that be is to court public crucifixion. Yes, I am a victim of this new crucifixion: is the nation not a witness to my suffering? Does the nation not witness my immense suffering, the death of my hopes, aspirations, and desires? Does the nation not realize how immense the suffering must be for an individual to renounce her most deeply held beliefs? How humiliated, frightened, and insecure I must have been to allow my words to be censored. Only the expurgation of what they considered offensive satisfied them. If I had not agreed to their grotesque bowdlerization, I would have been hounded and pursued till I dropped dead. Their politics, their faith, their barbarism, and their diabolical purposes are all intent on sucking the lifeblood out of me. They will continue till they have bled me dry, expurgated these words, and removed these truths which are so difficult for them to stomach. Words are harmless, truth defenceless and devoid of arms. Truth has always been vanquished by the force of might. How can I – a powerless and unprotected individual – battle brute force? Come what may, though, I cannot take recourse to untruth. What have I to offer but love and compassion? I have never wished ill of anybody. Call me romantic but I dream of a world of harmonious coexistence free from the shackles of hatred and strife. In the way that they used hatred to rip out my words, I would like to use compassion and love to rip the hatred out of them. Certainly, I am enough of a realist to acknowledge that strife, hatred, cruelty, and barbarism are integral elements of the human condition. This will not change; such is the way of the world. I am an utterly insignificant creature: how can I change all this? Even if I were to be eradicated or exterminated it would not matter one whit to the world at large. I know all this. Yet, I had imagined Bengal would be different. I had thought the madness of her people was temporary. I had thought that the Bengal I loved so passionately would never forsake me. She did. Exiled from Bangladesh, I wandered around the world for many years like a lost orphan. The moment I was given shelter in West Bengal it felt as though all those years of numbing tiredness just melted away. I was able to resume a normal life in a beloved and familiar land. So long as I survive, I will carry within me the vistas of Bengal, her sunshine, her wet earth, her very essence. The same Bengal whose sanctuary I once walked a million blood-soaked miles to reach has now turned its back upon me. I find it hard to believe that I am no longer wanted in Bengal. I am a Bengali within and without; I live, breathe, and dream in Bengali but, bizarrely, Bengal offers me no refuge I am a guest in this land, I must be careful of what I say. I must do nothing which violates the code of hospitality. I did not come here to hurt anyone's sentiments or feelings. Arguably, I came here to be hurt. Wounded and hurt in my own country, I suffered slights and injuries in many lands before I reached India, where I knew I would be hurt yet again. This is, after all, a democratic and secular land where the politics of the vote bank implies that being secular is equated with being pro-Muslim fundamentalists. I do not wish to believe all this. I do not wish to hear all this. Yet, all around me I read, hear, and see evidence of this. I sometimes wish I could be like those mythical monkeys, oblivious of all that is going on around me. Death who visits me in many forms now feels like a friend. I feel like talking to him, unburdening myself to him. You must realize I have no one to speak to, no one to unburden myself to. I have lost my beloved Bengal. The Bengal I cherished, whose land, smells and sounds, hose very air was a part of me, is gone. I had to leave Bengal. No child torn from its other's breast could have suffered as much as I did during that painful parting. Once gain, I have lost the mother from whose womb I was born. The pain is no less than the ay I lost my biological mother. My mother had always wanted me to return home. That was something I could not do. After settling down in Kolkata, I was able to tell my mother, ho by then was a memory within me, that I had indeed returned home. How did it matter which side of an artificial divide I was on? I do not have the courage to tell my mother that my life now is that of a nomad. How can I tell her that those who had given me shelter saw it fit to expel me so unceremoniously? My sensitive mother would be hattered if I were to tell her all this. I choose not to tell her, not even when I am lonely and alone. Instead, I have now taken to convincing myself that I must have transgressed somewhere, committed some grievous error. Why else would I be in such an unenviable situation? Is daring to utter the truth a terrible sin in this era of falsehood and deceit? Don't others tell the truth? Surely they do not have to undergo such tribulations? Why do I have to undergo such suffering? Is it because I am a woman? What can be easier than assailing a woman? I know I have not been condemned by the masses. If their opinion had been sought, I am ctain the majority would have wanted me to stay on in Bengal. But when has a emocracy reflected the voice of the masses? A democracy is run by those who hold the reins of power who do exactly what they think fit. An insignificant individual, I must ow live life on my own terms and write about what I believe in and hold dear. It is not my desire to harm, malign, or deceive. I do not lie. I try not to be offensive. I am but a simple writer who neither knows nor understands the dynamics of politics. The way in which I was turned into a political pawn, however, and treated at the hands of base politicians, beggars belief. For what end you may well ask. A few measly votes. It is I who have suffered; I am the only victim of this great tragedy. The force of fundamentalism, which I have opposed and fought for very many years, has only been strengthened by my tragic defeat. This is my beloved India, where I have been living and writing on secular humanism, uman rights, and emancipation of women. This is also the land where I have had to suffer and pay the price for my most deeply held and fundamental convictions, where not a single political party of any persuasion has spoken out in my favour, where no non-governmental organization, women's rights' or human rights' group, has stood by me or ondemned the vicious attacks launched upon me. This India is not known to me . Yes, it s true that individuals in a scattered, unorganized manner are fighting for my cause and ournalists, writers, and intellectuals have spoken out in my favour. I do not know whether hey are familiar with my work or not, indeed if they have even read a single word I have penned. Yet, I am grateful for their opinions and support. Wherever individuals gather in groups, they seem to lose their power to speak out. Frankly, this facet of the new India terrifies me. Then again, is this a new India, or even a facet of a new India; or is it the true face of the nation? I do not know. Since my earliest childhood I have regarded India as a great land and a fearless nation. The land of my dreams: enlightened, strong, progressive, and tolerant. I wish to live to be proud of that India. I will die a happy person the day I know India has forsaken darkness for light, bigotry for tolerance. I await that day. I do not know whether I will survive, but India and what she stands for has to survive, must be allowed to survive. 18 December Delhi From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 13:47:00 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:17:00 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> Message-ID: Dear Vetri,I am sure Vedavati has a point to make when she says that Modi's victory is victory of the Hindus/victory to the Hindus. I think if Vedavati can explain her point, it will be of great help. Cheers, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 23, 2007 11:28 AM, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > Victory for Hindus? I can't help but bursting in to laughing! Joke of the > twenty first century. Interestingly, such jokes are being cracked in this > forum. Terms like sudo-secular is hardly going to hurt sensible > intellectuals. > > Vetri. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Vedavati Jogi > To: reader-list at sarai.net ; tapasrayx at gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its > a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the > world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aman.am at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 16:02:42 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:32:42 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] At Last The Inevitable, Statues Stolen From Airport Tarmac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <995a19920712230232h2cae9c87o2901b749214798e8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Naeem, Thank you for consistently posting on the musee guimet issue .. i have been following all your posts - but never got around to responding as i didnt quite know what to say ... am still unsure what to make of it - is truly fascinating - The fact that one crate has gone suggests some very very interesting possiblities - particularly that a hypothetical highly placed govt official gets to sell priceless heritage on the international black market and get to say "I told you so" at the same time. I met a bangladeshi journalist recently - i think he worked for a pro-govt paper and he seemed to be unaware of the issue - is it all over the papers? thank you once again best a,. On Dec 23, 2007 11:51 AM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > At Last The Inevitable, Statues Stolen From Airport Tarmac > > > It is now confirmed that approximately 2 am, the night of Eid, one of > the 13 crates in the second shipment of artifacts to Musee Guimet was > stolen from the tarmac of ZIA International Airport. > > Details here: > > http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/23/missing-statues/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 19:02:22 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:32:22 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Chronicle of a Fiasco Foretold Message-ID: After months of gnashing our teeth at the evil French authorities, Bangladeshi museum artefacts have indeed been stolen. But it's a 100% Made In Bangladesh affair. I listened over many a cha cup to endless conspiracy theories about how Musee Guimet, Paris was going to steal our priceless buddhist icons. But in the end the robbery happened before Air France could take off. From the "heavily guarded" ZIA International Airport tarmac, Dhaka. The shaken French embassy official I spoke with was (silently) grateful that at least the vanishing was in Bangladesh. Imagine the diplomatic hau-kau if this was not uncovered until the plane landed in Paris. Who do you think we would blame then? Hmm... The missing crate, Crate # 5, was found the next day, but not the priceless Visnu statues inside. In Bengali, a huge robbery is called "pukur churi" (literally pond theft). As a mordant touch, the crate was found next to a pond. With the right touch of dramatics, three activists have begun a "fast unto death" at the Dhaka Shaheed Minar demanding the return of the artefacts. Yes, I'm sure that will work. I don't mean to be cynical, it's life that's making me this way... ##################################################### At Last The Inevitable, Statues Vanish From Airport Tarmac http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/23/missing-statues/ Tintin In Bengal (revised) http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/01/tintin-bengal/ Asterix & The Big Fight http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/03/guimet-the-other-side ##################################################### From zigzackly at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:02:47 2007 From: zigzackly at gmail.com (peter griffin) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:32:47 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Short film contest at the Kala Ghoda Arts Festival Message-ID: <4d145a50712230932h163bbd3ei277e0c54ba854f7a@mail.gmail.com> http://www.caferati.com/kgaf/2007/12/23/short-film-competition/ Short film competition The Tenth Kala Ghoda Arts Festival Invites you to participate in a competition for young filmmakers (age- 25 years and below). Make a short film titled: *TEN* Duration: 1 min - 5 mins Format: DVD only Last Submission date: 26th Jan '08 Submissions to: Brinda Miller, Millernium, 665, Cadell Rd, Next to Dadar Catering College, Dadar West, Mumbai 400028. The sooner you submit the better your chances! Only 20 films will be chosen for screening at the festival. For inquiries, call: Smriti Garach- +91 9819242246, Jethu Mundul- +91 9820254429 From vrjogi at hotmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:21:29 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:51:29 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: definitely all gujjus are not hindus, moreover narendrabhai always talks about (and works for)'sade panch crore gujratis' i am not against nationalist muslims, i am against those psudoseculars who don't allow muslims to join mainstream in india. but do our seculars understand that? to prove their secular credentials they keep cursing modiji gijjubahis have shown these seculars their place, thank you gujjubhais. heartu congratulations narendrabhai! Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:06:54 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: Hi Vedavati, I do not understand what you mean by victory to Hindus? Can you please explain? Also, are gujjus Hindus? I have gujju muslim friends so maybe it's time for me to call and congratulate them as well. Look forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 23, 2007 10:50 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo seculars! you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!vedavati_________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in_________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 From vrjogi at hotmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:46:35 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:16:35 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: Narendra Modi's resounding victory is a big slap on the face of Congress party,Pseudoseculars and English media. ofcourse they can not accept Modi's victory in right perspective. Reasons behind his success are,1.He is a very honest politician. He gave gujrat non-corrupt & efficient administartion2. He is commited to development of all 5.5 crore gujratis .3.He has the political will to implement his dream projects 4.His selfless attitude allows him to take bold decisions 5. He doesn't care what his opponents and detractors say about his decisions as long as his 5.5 crore gujratis are supporting him 5.In contrast psudo secularims is not allowing Manmohan Singh to solve terrorists problem with iron hand. Psuedosecularists are once again attributing his victory to Hindutwa and wasting their time is discussing whether its a victory for modi or bjp thus insulting the mandate as well as wisdom of common Gujratis. Not only Gujratis but all hindusthanis want security, prosperity & peace. Rather they don't want secularism at the expense of their own security. And I will not be surprised if one day all hindusthanis unite and vote for modi to make him PRIME MINISTER of India. Vedavati From: vrjogi at hotmail.comTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.netSubject: RE: [Reader-list] gujrat electionDate: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:51:22 +0000 definitely all gujjus are not hindus, moreover narendrabhai always talks about (and works for)'sade panch crore gujratis' i am not against nationalist muslims, i am against those psudoseculars who don't allow muslims to join mainstream in india. but do our seculars understand that? to prove their secular credentials they keep cursing modijigijjubahis have shown these seculars their place, thank you gujjubhais. heartu congratulations narendrabhai! Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:06:54 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: Hi Vedavati, I do not understand what you mean by victory to Hindus? Can you please explain? Also, are gujjus Hindus? I have gujju muslim friends so maybe it's time for me to call and congratulate them as well. Look forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 23, 2007 10:50 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo seculars! you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!vedavati_________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in_________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 01:30:26 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:00:26 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com><602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> Message-ID: <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Dec 24 01:37:59 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:07:59 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] A Prayer Message-ID: <9c06aab30712231207p60850592pc22cb2b5ebff0136@mail.gmail.com> Modi has won. Again. A prayer at "Indian Muslims": http://indianmuslims.in/narendra-modi-wins-gujarat-again/ aaiye haath uThaayeN ham bhii ham jinheN rasm-e-du'aa yaad nahiiN ham jinheN soz-e-muhabbat ke sivaa ko'ii but, ko'ii Khudaa yaad nahiiN From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 08:34:45 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 03:04:45 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclear as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you yourself have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus are not Hindus. I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? Again, apologies for nagging you. Cheers, Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > be > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for > floating her own party against BJP? > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have > won, Hindus have > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth > next time. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars! > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > vedavati > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 10:27:16 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 04:57:16 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> Modi's victory is a victory of Hindus as almost everyone had started categorising Hindus as someone who have terrorised muslims in Gujarat. Modi not only gave good governance , he laso gave a peaceful and secure state to Gujaratis. His victory is victory to all Gujaratis irrespective of being Hindus , muslims or Parsis. The Good governance wins , the respect of majority community wins , the confidence and security to minorties wins. The Psuedosecularists lost all. This time it was Gujarat .... We all are waiting for Modi in Delhi....just few months to go. On 12/24/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > unclear > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourself > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > are > not Hindus. > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > Again, apologies for nagging you. > Cheers, > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > > be > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > > for > > floating her own party against BJP? > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > have > > won, Hindus have > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > mouth > > next time. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > To: ; > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question. > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > psudo > > > seculars! > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > showing > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 10:33:40 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 05:03:40 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Future of KP's after K solution Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712232103n7cdf429aicfedf284c203525e@mail.gmail.com> " Some Kashmiri leaders told me once that the future of the Pandits would be decided when the future of Kashmir would be decided." - Kuldeep Nayyar in Asian Age http://203.197.197.71/presentation/leftnavigation/opinion/opinion/return-to-1952,-solve-kashmir.aspx From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Mon Dec 24 13:19:30 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:49:30 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Newly tested hard/software: Version 2.0 Message-ID: <353893.79918.qm@web8407.mail.in.yahoo.com> Newly tested in his Gujarat lab: Hindutva 2.0 Varghese K George New Delhi, December 23 • “Gali Gali me naara hai, Aaj Gujarat kal Delhi Hamara Hai. One country, one people, one leader—Narendra Modi.” An SMS sent out by Vande Gujarat, an organisation that works out of Gujarat BJP office, on Sunday. • A banner outside the BJP office in Delhi screamed, “Jo Hindu hit ki baat karega, wohi desh par raj karega.” On the freshly printed banner, Narendra Modi gleamed life-size and the party president, Rajnath Singh, was stamp-size. The original poster boy of Hindutva, L K Advani did not find a place at all. The signals after the results left little room for ambiguity. So while Rajnath Singh told Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi who called at 12.20 pm that “You’ve done it,” and L K Advani heaped praises on “Gujarat’s dynamic and highly popular” leader, the BJP leadership was trying not to over-emphasise Modi’s role in the Gujarat victory. Spokesmen in Ahmedabad and Delhi spoke about a “team effort” with Modi as the man of the match. “Nobody is bigger than the party,” said Singh. “Modi will remain chief minister of Gujarat and Advaniji will lead the party in the Lok Sabha elections,” said Arun Jaitley, BJP general secretary in-charge of the elections. But Sunday’s win announced loudly that Narendra Modi has arrived on the national scene. So has Hindutva 2.0. Advani’s original Rath Yatra started from Gujarat and spread the message of Hindu pride and cultural nationalism. Advani tried to link suraj — good governance — to Hindutva in 2004, but failed. In Modi’s regional version, Hindu and Gujarati pride blend with economic prosperity—Bharat Maata is a mere slogan in the beginning. And unlike Advani, Modi has won. The core of the pan-Indian Hindutva philosophy of the Sangh Parivar is retained—that a united, Hindu upsurge is the necessary and sufficient condition for material progress. Gujarat was touted as “the laboratory of Hindutva.” Many others may have won individual elections, but Narendra Modi showed it as a sustainable philosophy that even withstands anti-incumbency. “The BJP has been winning Gujarat since 1990 and this is our fifth victory,” Modi said today. But during the campaign, Modi’s reference point was 2002 when he won the election for the first time. “In the last five years has there been a riot? Curfew? Has any terrorist struck Gujarat? Isn’t your business running well? Isn’t your daughter walking on the streets without being harassed?” Modi asked his adulatory audience during the campaign and the point was not easy to miss. Everyone knew Gujarat’s progress did not start in 2002. But Modi’s voters accepted that things have changed for better since 2002. Hindutva 2.0 is not driven by trishul-wielding sadhus, but by professionals and the middle class; by farmers who eagerly move on to Bt cotton and are impatient for Narmada waters. The BJP national leadership or the Sangh Parivar cannot easily concede the fact of an individual reorienting its politics and defying the organization. They are therefore emphasising the party’s role-at least as much as Modi’s. “It is victory of our ideology and we will go ahead with ideology and development issues. Modi was the chief minister there and under his leadership the state government has given development to the state,” Singh said. “He and his government had a clean image and worked for development. Under his leadership, Gujarat has emerged as a model state,” the BJP president said. “My party has conclusively shown that the people of Gujarat have voted for good governance, development and a leadership that delivers,” said BJP prime ministerial candidate L K Advani. There is no other leader in the BJP who can single-handedly win a state, and other leaders naturally feel insecure. Rajnath Singh had insured himself, by actively facilitating the declaration of L K Advani as the prime ministerial candidate. Modi and Arun Jaitely are trying to ward off any conflict. Modi thanked the “guidance of the national leadership,’ and congratulated Rajanth Singh for the victory. Jaitley said “Modi is a disciplined BJP worker and will remain in Gujarat.” It is difficult for the BJP to replicate the Gujarat experiment in other states given the vast difference between the “laboratory” and the real world. But every BJP leader will now secretly aspire to do a Modi in his or her respective states. However, in the days to come, Narendra Modi will have more true enemies and more false friends in the Parivar. Save all your chat conversations. Find them online at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From pkray11 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 14:25:05 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:55:05 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... Message-ID: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> The BJP has won the assembly elections in Gujarat. The results show that where the impact of communal politics is deep, electoral efforts alone are insufficient to defeat the communal forces. What is required is a determined and uncompromising struggle against the communal ideology of Hindutva and the capacity to launch sustained struggles of all sections of the people who suffered from the rightwing economic policies of the Modi government. Prakash From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 14:56:05 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:26:05 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <127350.15556.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From hpp at vsnl.com Mon Dec 24 16:02:22 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:32:22 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... References: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <015801c84618$04c79fd0$c701a8c0@Ramaswamy> Dear Friends If the people of West Bengal can live for 30+ long dark years under CPI(M) rule, and see the all-round degeneration of society, see the collapse of law and order, of governance and the discarding of all constitutional norms; see blatant abuse of power, corruption; see the rule by hoodlums, all-round extortion ... well, then that also produces empathy for the people in Gujarat. Fascists in the west, some other -ists in the east, one is reminded of Tennyson's "Charge of the Light Brigade": "cannons to the right of them, cannons to the left of them, rode the six hundred..." India awaits the brigade that will bring light to the darkness! Best V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 16:05:18 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:35:18 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <127350.15556.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <432701.79198.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> haha! Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 16:14:39 2007 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:44:39 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Free trade: call for caution Message-ID: <3457ce860712240244i716958eamd8f169763fa88932@mail.gmail.com> Free trade: call for caution Special Correspondent http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/23/stories/2007122353220400.htm Thiruvananthapuram: Speakers at a consultation on 'India's Free Trade Agreements (FTA) negotiations and implications for Kerala,' organised in the city, have called for caution on part of New Delhi in signing the agreements. Farmers' groups, researchers and civil society organisations participated in the meeting, organised by the Kerala Swatantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) in collaboration with the Mumbai-based research group 'Focus on the Global South.' Market access Speakers at the meeting said the ongoing crisis in the World Trade Organisation's (WTO) Doha round of trade talks and the market access ambitions of big businesses had necessitated a shift to bilateral and regional FTAs. India, they observed, was in the process of negotiating and implementing some 27 FTAs. The participants noted that the India-Sri Lanka Free Trade Agreement (ISFTA) signed in 2000 had adversely impacted on farmers in Kerala. Import of duty-free black pepper from Sri Lanka resulted in a free fall in local prices. The meeting said suicides among pepper farmers in the Wayanad region had registered a sharp rise during this period. Farmers Relief Forum leader A.C. Varkey said NGOs were forced to launch campaigns against the attachment of farms and houses of farmers by banks. Since India slashed tariffs in 1996-97, agricultural imports across the country have spiralled; 270 per cent increase in volume and 300 per cent in value terms, he said. The meeting noted that while middle class consumers had benefited through cheaper prices of imported commodities, a huge section of consumers who were also producers had been given short shrift. India, they said, had some 30 crore small farmers with less than 2 acres of land. Threat New FTAs such as the European Union (EU) – India Trade and Investment Agreement, India - Thailand FTA and the ASEAN - India Regional Trade and Investment Area were identified as posing threats to the fishing community in the State. The EU-India FTA is in the third round of negotiations and covers areas such as agriculture, fisheries, goods, investment and services and is India's most ambitious and challenging FTA till date. With 27 countries, the EU is one of the largest trading blocks and controls a third of global trade. Both negotiating teams have agreed that the minimum coverage of the FTA will be 90 per cent of all trade. "We have heard from sources in the Commerce Ministry that fish species such as mackerels, sardines, mullets, anchovies and flounders, the means of livelihood for traditional fishworkers, will be imported under minimum tariffs. We will be denied a just price for our catch as import of subsidised fish would cause local prices to plummet," said KSMTF State president T. Peter. Indian negotiators expect that these FTAs will provide Indian exporters access to foreign markets. While tariffs are low in the EU, there are several other import restrictions such as domestic subsidies, non-tariff barriers (NTBs), trade rate quotas (TRQs), sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) measures and tariff peaks to protect their markets. Mr. Peter stressed on the need for a nation-wide awareness campaign on the 'disastrous effects' of the ISFTA. "The ASEAN – India regional FTA, which involves the 10 South East Asian countries, will have a bigger adverse impact on us. Many of ASEAN exports such as fish, copra, coconut oil, desiccated coconut, natural rubber and pepper are also produced in India," he said. He said KSMTF would work closely with other unions and social movements to challenge the FTA policy of the Commerce Ministry. The federation has drawn up plans to bring out pamphlets, exert pressure on MLAs to raise the issue in the next session of the Kerala Assembly and take up a joint campaign with fishworkers and farmers groups in the ASEAN and the EU. http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 18:21:23 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:51:23 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... In-Reply-To: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <476FAB42.5070802@gmail.com> The struggle must, of course, be conducted under the leadership of a certain party, which happens to be the divinely ordained vanguard of the toiling masses. And it must draw inspiration from the rightwing economic policies of a certain leftwing government, because what is good for a certain state on the coast of the Bay of Bengal is not good for another state on the coast of the Arabian Sea. If this sounds confusing, one needs only to look at a map - the seas are different, though joined at the bottom, as in bottomline, in the great Indian ocean of ... shall we say hypocrisy? Tapas prakash ray wrote: > The BJP has won the assembly elections in Gujarat. The results show that > where the impact of communal politics is deep, electoral efforts alone are > insufficient to defeat the communal forces. What is required is a > determined and uncompromising struggle against the communal ideology of > Hindutva and the capacity to launch sustained struggles of all sections of > the people who suffered from the rightwing economic policies of the Modi > government. > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > From vivek at sarai.net Mon Dec 24 19:12:10 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 13:42:10 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> Message-ID: <476FB726.1010102@sarai.net> Vedavati, When I think of this event, I feel a great sadness. Narendra Modi's victory will be the biggest ideological boon for those who hate us. He will be the *cause* of many terrorist events over the next five years. Yes. But let us think twice about the word "terrorist". It is a stupid and inaccurate word. What we have here are two world views that hate each other but are, not coincidentally, symmetrical in their design. It's two opposing revenge-fantasies, in fact. Just think what the logical end of that could be. Vivek Zainab Bawa wrote: > Dear Vetri,I am sure Vedavati has a point to make when she says that Modi's > victory is victory of the Hindus/victory to the Hindus. I think if Vedavati > can explain her point, it will be of great help. > Cheers, > Zainab (gujju ben) > > On Dec 23, 2007 11:28 AM, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > >> Victory for Hindus? I can't help but bursting in to laughing! Joke of the >> twenty first century. Interestingly, such jokes are being cracked in this >> forum. Terms like sudo-secular is hardly going to hurt sensible >> intellectuals. >> >> Vetri. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Vedavati Jogi >> To: reader-list at sarai.net ; tapasrayx at gmail.com >> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM >> Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election >> >> >> >> >> >> >> whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. >> its >> a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo >> seculars! >> >> you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing >> the >> world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! >> >> vedavati >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. >> http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 19:33:24 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 14:03:24 -0000 Subject: Pakistans Tyranny Continues (by AITZAZ AHSAN) Message-ID: <965363.66548.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> An opinion piece by Aitzaz Ahsan in The New York Times is reproduced below. What has peeved me in this piece are Aitzaz Ahsan's references to Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, the erstwhile Chief Justice of Pakistan's Supreme Court, who was kicked out by Musharraf. To act as lead counsel for Chaudhry is Aitzaz Ahsan's right and duty as a lawyer to provide representation for a client be it a criminal or an innocent. But, Aitzaz Ahsan does a grave injustice to his own principled politics for the defense of Democracy in Pakistan, when he talks about Chaudhry in any laudatory terms. Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry bears culpability in allowing the continuation of Military Dictatorship in Pakistan. If Musharraf's coup against the elected government of Nawaz Sharif was treason against the Constitution of Pakistan (as it certainly was), then Chaudhry is complicit in the furtherance of that treason by providing support through "compliance" and "approval" through Legal Judgments. - 12th Oct 1999 - Musharraf engineers coup against elected government of Nawaz Sharif. (Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry is Chief Justice of Balochistan High Court) - 14th Oct 1999 - Musharraf proclaims Emergency with retrospective effect from 12th Oct 1999. Musharraf declares himself Chief Executive, suspends the National Assembly, Provisional Assemblies and the Senate, suspends the Federal and Provincial cabinets and Provincial Governors. Musharraf places """' ... the whole of Pakistan ..... under the control of the Armed Forces of Pakistan.""""" . (Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry is Chief Justice of Balochistan High Court) - 14th Oct 1999 - Musharraf promulgates the Provisional Constitution Order No.1 of 1999. Amongst other matters, this PCO contains the proviso: """"" .....that the Supreme Court or High Courts and any other court shall not have the powers to make any order against the Chief Executive or any person exercising powers or jurisdiction under his authority;...""""" The PCO also has the injunctions: """""" (1) No Court, Tribunal or other authority shall call or permit to be called in question the proclamation of Emergency of 14th day of October, 1999 or any Order made in pursuance thereof. (2) No judgment, decree, writ, order or process whatsoever shall be made or issued by any court or tribunal against the Chief Executive or any authority designated by the Chief Executive. """"""" (Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry continues as Chief Justice of Balochistan High Court) - 25th Jan 2000 - Musharraf issues the Oath of Office (Judges) Order, 2000. It applied to all Judges of Supreme Court, High Courts and Federal Shariat Court. By taking the the Oath, a Judge submitted to the affirmation: """"""....... shall be bound by the provisions of this Order, the Proclamation of Emergency of the fourteenth day of October, 1999 and the Provisional Constitution Order No. 1 of 1999 as amended and, notwithstanding any judgment of any court, shall not call in question or permit to be called in question the validity of any of the provisions thereof. """"""" Along with many Judges of the High Courts, 13 Judges of the Supreme Court including the Chief Justice Saeed-uz-Zamaan Siddiqui refused to take the Oath. Some of them resigned in a formal manner, others were simply no longer recognized as Judges. (Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry took this Oath) - 4th Feb 2000 - Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry is appointed as a Judge in the Supreme Court of Pakistan. - 12th May 2000 - Bench of the Supreme Court hearing challenges to Musharraf's coup, in it's verdict gives a Legal endorsement to the coup by invoking the "doctrine of necessity". Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry was a member of that Supreme Court bench. The "doctrine of necessity" excuse had been used by the Supreme Court of Pakistan in 1954 to validate Governor General Ghulam Mohammed's proclamation of Emergency and dissolution of Pakistan's First Constituent Assembly. The "doctrine" was again used by the Supreme Court in 1978 to declare as "Legal" General Zia ul Haq's dictatorship and Martial Law. - 7th May 2005- Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry is appointed as Chief Justice of Pakistan's Supreme Court by the Military Dictator General Parvez Musharraf - 3rd Nov 2007 - Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry is cast out from the Judiciary by the Military Dictator General Parvez Musharraf Kshmendra Kaul PS : The accolades received by Chaudhry and the 'awards' conferred on him by the various bodies quoted by Aitzaz Ahsan cannot absolve Chaudhry of his guilt in the perpetuation of Military Dictatorship in Pakistan. What we do get an idea of is how ill-informed the named institutions are Pakistan’s Tyranny Continues By AITZAZ AHSAN Lahore, Pakistan THE chief justice of Pakistan’s Supreme Court, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, and his family have been detained in their house, barricaded in with barbed wire and surrounded by police officers in riot gear since Nov. 3. Phone lines have been cut and jammers have been installed all around the house to disable cellphones. And the United States doesn’t seem to care about any of that. The chief justice is not the only person who has been detained. All of his colleagues who, having sworn to protect, uphold and defend the Constitution, refused to take a new oath prescribed by President Pervez Musharraf as chief of the army remain confined to their homes with their family members. The chief justice’s lawyers are also in detention, initially in such medieval conditions that two of them were hospitalized, one with renal failure. As the chief justice’s lead counsel, I, too, was held without charge — first in solitary confinement for three weeks and subsequently under house arrest. Last Thursday morning, I was released to celebrate the Id holidays. But that evening, driving to Islamabad to say prayers at Faisal Mosque, my family and I were surrounded at a rest stop by policemen with guns cocked and I was dragged off and thrown into the back of a police van. After a long and harrowing drive along back roads, I was returned home and to house arrest. Every day, thousands of lawyers and members of the civil society striving for a liberal and tolerant society in Pakistan demonstrate on the streets. They are bludgeoned by the regime’s brutal police and paramilitary units. Yet they come out again the next day. People in the United States wonder why extremist militants in Pakistan are winning. What they should ask is why does President Musharraf have so little respect for civil society — and why does he essentially have the backing of American officials? The White House and State Department briefings on Pakistan ignore the removal of the justices and all these detentions. Meanwhile, lawyers, bar associations and institutes of law around the world have taken note of this brave movement for due process and constitutionalism. They have displayed their solidarity for the lawyers of Pakistan. These include, in the United States alone, the American Bar Association, state and local bars stretching from New York and New Jersey to Louisiana, Ohio and California, and citadels of legal education like Harvard and Yale Law Schools. The detained chief justice continues to receive enormous recognition and acknowledgment. Harvard Law School has conferred on him its highest award, placing him on the same pedestal as Nelson Mandela and the legal team that argued Brown v. Board of Education. The National Law Journal has anointed him its lawyer of the year. The New York City Bar Association has admitted him as a rare honorary member. Despite all this, the Musharraf regime shows no sign of relenting. But for how long? How long can the chief justice and his colleagues be kept in confinement? How long can the leaders of the lawyers’ movement be detained? They will all be out one day. And they will neither be silent nor still. They will recount the brutal treatment meted out to them for seeking the establishment of a tolerant, democratic, liberal and plural political system in Pakistan. They will state how the writ of habeas corpus was denied to them by the arbitrary and unconstitutional firing of Supreme and High Court justices. They will spell out precisely how one man set aside a Constitution under the pretext of an “emergency,” arrested the judges, packed the judiciary, “amended” the Constitution by a personal decree and then “restored” it to the acclaim of London and Washington. They will, of course, speak then. But others are speaking now. The parliamentary elections scheduled for Jan. 8 have already been rigged, they are saying. The election commission and the caretaker cabinet are overtly partisan. The judiciary is entirely hand-picked. State resources are being spent on preselected candidates. There is a deafening uproar even though the independent news media in Pakistan are completely gagged. Can there even be an election in this environment? Are they being heard? I’m afraid not. (Aitzaz Ahsan, a former minister of the interior and of law and justice, is the president of the Supreme Court Bar Association of Pakistan.) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/23/opinion/23ahsan.html?ei=5070&en=c560e42dac0c2828&ex=1199077200&emc=eta1&pagewanted=print --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 21:36:31 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (yasir ~) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:06:31 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Pakistan=92s_Tyranny_Continues_=28?= =?windows-1252?q?by_AITZAZ_AHSAN=29?= In-Reply-To: <965363.66548.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <965363.66548.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0712240806g21f3511fwe63f1da98d2ebb70@mail.gmail.com> Hello KK I am not sure what the problem is if Aitzaz lauds the current CJ of Pakistan and his client, Iftikhar: 'The detained chief justice continues to receive enormous recognition and acknowledgment. Harvard Law School has conferred on him its highest award, placing him on the same pedestal as Nelson Mandela and the legal team that argued Brown v. Board of Education. The National Law Journal has anointed him its lawyer of the year. The New York City Bar Association has admitted him as a rare honorary member. Despite all this, the Musharraf regime shows no sign of relenting.' Aitzaz is making a case to the global civil society - all the things he mentions are documented, the info available from news and other sources on the net. However the other thing you point out is correct also - the judges who refused to sign on to gen mush's current coup against himself (president) and the judiciary in 2007, had taken oath legitimizing his first coup against the civilan government of pm nsharif. A rejoinder to exactly this point is pasted below - which may address the general point in the flow of events and the rich but flawed[?] drama of our constitutional history - but may not answer all the points raised in your email. Are you fond of uniforms? yasir received 5 dec THEY TOOK OATH UNDER THE PCO BEFORE - WHY SHOULD WE SUPPORT THEM NOW? A bit of history Pakistan's history is chequered with instances of military taking over the state. When Ayub took over, he introduced a constitution (1962) that gave sweeping powers to the President and the military. On his downfall, for General Yahya, the new military ruler, even the heavily lop-sided 1962 constitution was not considered in holding on to power. He issued the first Provisional Constitution Order (PCO) in Pakistan suspending human rights, civil liberties and the right to approach a court of law, for common citizens of Pakistan. After the promulgation of the 1973 Constitution - considered pristine and drafted by popular choice - there have been two other instances in Pakistan when military intervention in displacing civil power took extra-constitutional judicial action through a PCO. In the first instance judges were asked to take a fresh oath under a PCO in 1981 under General Zia and the second was in 2000 under General Musharraf. After Musharraf had seized power (1999) the courts were first purged of independent judges - Justice Wajihuddin being one of the judges who refused to take oath under the 2000-PCO. Justice Saiduzzaman Siddiqui, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was held hostage by an Army Colonel for several hours while the oath-taking ceremony took place elsewhere - it was well known that he would not only have refused to take oath but would also have influenced other judges in doing the same. The newly constituted Supreme Court under Justice Irshad Hasan Khan gave the military regime de facto recognition, but even they made it clear that they were doing so on condition that the judicial organ of the state remained uninterrupted. Justice Irshad Hasan Khan was duly compensated by appointment as the Chief Election Commissioner on his retirement. The Supreme Court declared at the time that independence of the judiciary was part of the basic structure of the constitution and that the Parliament could not amend the Constitution's basic structure. The Chief Executive - as Musharraf had styled himself - was given power to amend but not alter the basic features of the Constitution. Another condition was that extra-constitutional measures were permissible when the Constitution did not provide a remedy and the action taken was proportionate to the emergency situation. The present situation Under the present suspension of the Constitution - unlike any other situation in the past - the target is the Judiciary, which is undoubtedly one of the three important pillars of the state holding the nation together. Cynics point out that as the judiciary had stamped approval on all dictators in the past, it was justification enough to dismiss the Judiciary's current role in protecting the Constitution and rule of Law. However, what is different this time under the 2007-PCO is that compared to three (3) judges in 1981, an unprecedented sixty (60) out of nearly ninety-four (94) judges in the higher judiciary did not recognize the PCO or take oath under it. It is important that reasons behind the en masse rejection of the 2007-PCO are widely known. General Musharraf had claimed that the Judiciary had been interfering in the Executive branch of the government in the war against terror. While the courts did not have jurisdiction over the Army, the Executive on the other hand had all the authority - led by General Musharraf - to take remedial action and in which it had failed to act. This blame for failure in fighting the terrorists was passed on to the Judiciary which in fact had no role in the matter. With regard to interference in power of the Executive, Justice Khalil-ur-Rahman Ramday has challenged the government to cite cases and proofs of this alleged interference. No such proof to back the rhetoric and propaganda of the government has been presented even after a month of Army rule. Analysts point out that the latest coup by General Musharraf was in reality a coup against an ineffective President Musharraf, while the Judiciary had been identified as a scapegoat in order to cover this reality. In fact the military had struck a blow to a pillar of the state to sustain its rule and control. Allegations While the government alleged that the Judiciary was "letting terrorists go", the particular judges who directed the release of the Lal Masjid students, Justice Nawaz Abbassi and Justice Khokar, were in fact the first ones to be welcomed and given oath by under the PCO. In any case, the courts could only act on evidence received. If no real cases were put up against the Lal Masjid clerics, deliberately or not, what was expected of the Supreme Court? Another reason cited in reference to "letting terrorists go" has to do with the "missing persons" cases pursued by the courts. The courts said they would be satisfied if the persons were detained legally, backed by evidence, with due notification and trial in a court of law. The court repeatedly asked the government to inform it if the missing people were held by the military, to give plausible reasons if so and to try the persons under proper jurisdiction. In a twist of deviousness, the government and intelligence agencies refused to admit they had custody of any of these missing persons and yet continued to release them a few at a time. The judiciary, which had only asked for putting up cases and evidence against the missing persons were forced to continue hearing these cases as the government did not contest their detention. Did the government expect the Supreme Court to tell the litigants that they did not have the right to approach the courts for redress? It must be reiterated that the Judiciary has no authority over the military. According to the Law, if the police cannot control terrorism, the Army can be called on to aid civil authorities. As this was not done and the military has continued to operate of its own will, the Judiciary was cornered into asking questions from the police and civil administration. In the meantime the military authorities stood by and waited for a time to strike at the Judiciary. Concerning the failed efforts of the Executive - President Musharraf's government - in the military operations in Waziristan and elsewhere, it is out of place to involve the courts as they do not have jurisdiction in Tribal Areas. Another allegation was that the Judiciary was interfering in administration and in the function of the state (the executive bureaucracy) to the extent that it paralysed the working of the state. The question was: what remedy do the people have if the civil administration violates the law? What are the courts expected to do when a police chief is seen on camera directing his officers to mercilessly baton charge peaceful journalists and citizens? Judicial oversight to ensure adherence to constitution and civil rights is a well established legal tradition. While previous martial law regimes offered intellectual justification for usurping power under compelling circumstances, the present condition provides no such compelling circumstances – threats of external attack, chaos within, or non-functioning assemblies. All allegations relate indirectly to the judiciary – this is then impossible new legal and constitutional circumstance. This time, at the end of the day, the Judiciary appeared to be moving towards what the people expected them to do, which was to stand by the Constitution, rule of Law and the principles on which this country was founded. If the judges had made a mistake before, their refusal to take the oath now has redeemed them. Although some judges had refused to take oath under previous martial laws, this time a majority of judges refused. In the words of retired Justice Rasheed A Razvi: "if the Judiciary stands by principles, they should be commended for their present action rather than condemned for past weaknesses". The biggest sacrifices have been made by those judges who had only recently been elevated to the High Court from the District Courts - like Justice Zafar Sherwani and Justice Salman Ansari, who are credited with changing the face of the district courts for the better - and of those who were to retire soon - like Justice Rehmat Hussain Jaffery who was due to retire on November 22, 2007. "This was particularly painful because we could not organize a befitting court reference for him that he richly deserved," said Chief Justice Sabihuddin of Sind High Court. "He is one of our most principled, upright judges, and he did not take oath despite being offered a position in the Supreme Court." By blaming and scrapping the Judiciary, the Musharraf government has tried to hide its own failures during the last eight years. Moreover, the cost of keeping one man in power is dangerously high as a nation without a Judiciary stands nowhere. Already, in the new "pliant" courts, cases are being decided and dismissed on the basis of allegiance to the government rather than the merits of the case. And yet another fact, scary as it is, is that the judicial experience of current pliant PCO-judges of Sind High Court averages about a year and a half – an unprecedented low by all accounts. The upright judges who refused oath have an average experience of over 8 years and some even have judicial experience over 17 or 18 years. end From vrjogi at hotmail.com Mon Dec 24 22:51:08 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 17:21:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <476FB726.1010102@sarai.net> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> <476FB726.1010102@sarai.net> Message-ID: vivek, this hatred arises due to 'asymmetric' secularism. otherwise there is no difference between ordinary hindu & ordinary muslim. i am a maharashtrian married to a kashmiri hindu. there is a huge difference between our respective cultures even though both of us are hindu brahmins coming from same socio-economic class. but to my great surprise there is not much difference between kashmiri hindu & kashmiri muslim. before 1989 my husband says there was no enmity between two communities, instead he had many muslim friends in his college. but after 1989, hindus became refugees in their own country.actually its a shame on all of us. but none of our prime ministers got time to visit their camps in jammu or delhi. there is no succhar committee, no economic package , no budget allocation for these refugees. our secular politicians are ready to 'talk' to 'terrorists' who have (1)killed hindus including our military men, (2)pulled down temples, (3)burnt houses of hindus ( our ancestor's property too has met with the same fate ). i can give many examples of this type of asymmetric secularism which has its roots in gandhian philosphy. many hindus have sofar opposed ways of narendra modi, but there is not a single muslim who has raised his voice against this asymmetric secularism. hindus are now in no mood to show magnonimity towards terrorists like soharabuddin or afzal guru hence they are in no mood to vote for those politicians who support these terrorists just because they happen to be muslims . if you visit tehelka or rediffmail websites you will find that majority of hindus are now wholeheartedly supporting modi. when communal riots break out, its an ordinary innocent muslim (and not tista settlewad or shabana azmi) who is at the receiving end. politicians & socalled seculars remain safe in their own houses. they must now introspect & try to understand the reasons behind modi's victory. vedavati > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 19:11:58 +0530> From: vivek at sarai.net> To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> CC: vadhimoolam at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net; vrjogi at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > Vedavati,> > When I think of this event, I feel a great sadness. Narendra Modi's > victory will be the biggest ideological boon for those who hate us. He > will be the *cause* of many terrorist events over the next five years. > Yes. > > But let us think twice about the word "terrorist". It is a stupid and > inaccurate word. What we have here are two world views that hate each > other but are, not coincidentally, symmetrical in their design. It's > two opposing revenge-fantasies, in fact. Just think what the logical > end of that could be. > > Vivek> > > > > > Zainab Bawa wrote:> > Dear Vetri,I am sure Vedavati has a point to make when she says that Modi's> > victory is victory of the Hindus/victory to the Hindus. I think if Vedavati> > can explain her point, it will be of great help.> > Cheers,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 23, 2007 11:28 AM, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote:> >> > > >> Victory for Hindus? I can't help but bursting in to laughing! Joke of the> >> twenty first century. Interestingly, such jokes are being cracked in this> >> forum. Terms like sudo-secular is hardly going to hurt sensible> >> intellectuals.> >>> >> Vetri.> >>> >>> >> ----- Original Message -----> >> From: Vedavati Jogi> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net ; tapasrayx at gmail.com> >> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> >> Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question.> >> its> >> a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo> >> seculars!> >>> >> you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> >> the> >> world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> >>> >> vedavati> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________________________________> >> Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> >> http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> >> _________________________________________> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> >> Critiques & Collaborations> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> >> subscribe> >> in the subject header.> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> _________________________________________> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> >> Critiques & Collaborations> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> >> subscribe in the subject header.> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 From pkray11 at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 03:08:32 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:38:32 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] bas yun hi... Message-ID: <98f331e00712241338g6f8b3c42tfde0854660344fd8@mail.gmail.com> To whom it may concerned....... ab kis kaa jashn manaate ho us des kaa jo taqsiim huaa ab kis ke giit sunaate ho us tan-man kaa jo do-niim huaa (a couplet composed by Ahmed Faraz) regards, Prakash From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 03:32:19 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 22:02:19 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... References: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c84678$af50ff40$6602a8c0@taraprakash> We must not give up hope no matter what the electoral efforts result in. The atmosphere of terror has helped CPI (M) to survive in power in West Bengal for a long time, Modi might survive for a long time too. But let us not presume that there is no light at the end of this dark tunnel. From Naroda Patia to Nandi Gram the state sponsored terrorism has been successful to browbeat the voters in to submission, but the struggle must go on. All dictators have seen their last days, and those in India are not invincible too. The faded red powers will soon have to go. ----- Original Message ----- From: "prakash ray" To: Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 3:54 AM Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... > The BJP has won the assembly elections in Gujarat. The results show that > where the impact of communal politics is deep, electoral efforts alone are > insufficient to defeat the communal forces. What is required is a > determined and uncompromising struggle against the communal ideology of > Hindutva and the capacity to launch sustained struggles of all sections of > the people who suffered from the rightwing economic policies of the Modi > government. > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 04:06:40 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 22:36:40 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election References: <127350.15556.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012f01c8467d$881234d0$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Dear Kshmendra. An intriguing interpretation of my message. I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did. I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus. Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected. I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives. It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? Itâ?Ts cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 05:49:38 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 00:19:38 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima, The Vanishing (full text) References: Message-ID: <01e901c8468b$dff31f30$6602a8c0@taraprakash> There is no doubt that for political interest the governments have been pandering to Islamic and other communal forces in this country. The intellectuals in India have sadly followed the political parties in not opposing the overtures of the "green brigade" beyond tokenism. I believe that the immunity of Islam needs to be strengthened to face the genuine criticism of some of its religious practices. More books are required which challenge the kathmullahs misleading the Muslim youth from the issues of bread to the issues of the book. In that too they are very selective. They are tooth and nail against Taslima and Sania Mirza, but when mosques are used for political and militant purposes, such as 3 militants took control of a mosque with arms, they remain unmoved. Perhaps the reason is that the mosques have been so often been defiled by weapons that people have become immune to such defilements? And perhaps if there are more writers like Taslima and Salman Rushdi people will get immune to such criticisms too? I think so. Taslima in this write-up is echoing the opinion of a Pakistani poet Fahmida Riyaz Tum bilkul ham jaise nikale Ab tak kahan chipe the bhaai? Vah murakhta vah ghamarhpan Jismein ham ne sadi ganvaai, Aakhi pahunchi dvar tumhare Are badhai bahut badhai. (You happened to be like us (Pakistanis). The stupidity and foolishness? with which we wasted the entire century finally reached you. Congratulations). I know it is one of the most inaccurate translations, but it is quite sufficient , i guess. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" To: Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 2:30 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima, The Vanishing (full text) > Apologies, the URL I sent earlier has been deleted from Drishtipat blog. > > Here is the full text in body of email. > > Banished Within and Without > Taslima Nasreen > > Although I was not born an Indian there is very little about my > appearance, my tastes, my habits and my traditions to distinguish me > from a daughter of the soil. Had I been born some years earlier than I > was, I would have been an Indian in every sense of the term. My father > was born before partition; the strange history of this subcontinent > made him a citizen of three states, his daughter a national of two. In > a village in what was then East Bengal, there once lived a poor farmer > by the name of Haradhan Sarkar, one of whose sons, Komol, driven to > fury by zamindari oppression, converted to Islam and became Kamal. I > belong to this family. Haradhan Sarkar was my great-grandfather's > father. Haradhan's other descendents obviously moved to India either > during or after partition and became citizens of this country. My > grandfather, a Muslim, did not. When I was a child, the notion > of the once fashionable theory of pan-Islamic had been exploded by > East Pakistani Muslims fighting their West Pakistani coreligionists. > Our struggle was for Bengali nationalism and secularism. > > > Even though I was born well after partition, the notion of undivided > India held me in thrall. I wrote a number of poems and stories > lamenting the loss of undivided Bengal, indeed undivided India even > before I visited this country. I simply could not bring myself to > accept the bit of barbed wire that kept families and friends apart > even though they shared a common language and culture. What hurt most > was that this wire had been secured by religion. By my early teens I > had forsaken religion and turned towards secular humanism and feminism > which sprang from within me and were in no way artificially imposed. > My father, a man with a modern scientific outlook, encouraged me to > introspect and as I grew older I broke away not just from religion but > also from all the traditions and customs, indeed the very culture, > which constantly oppressed, suppressed and denigrated women. When I > first visited India, specifically West Bengal, in 1989, I did not for > an instant think I was in a foreign land. From the moment I set foot > on Indian soil, I knew I belonged here and that it was, in some > fundamental way, inseparable from the land I called my own. The reason > for this was not my Hindu forebear. The reason was not that one of > India's many cultures is my own or that I speak one of her many > languages or that I look Indian. > > It is because the values and traditions of India are embedded deeply > within me. These values and traditions are a manifestation of the > history of the subcontinent. I am a victim of that history. Then > again, I have been enriched and enlivened by it, if one can call it > so. I am a victim of its poverty, colonial legacy, faiths, > communalism, violence, bloodshed, partition, migrations, exodus, > riots, wars and even theories of nationhood. I have been hardened > further by my life and experiences in a dirty, poverty- and > famine-stricken, ill-governed theocracy called Bangladesh. > > The intolerance, fanaticism and bigotry of Islamic fundamentalists > forced me to leave Bangladesh, herself a victim of the subcontinent's > history. I was forced to go into exile; the doors of my own country > slammed shut on my face for good. Since that moment I sought refuge in > India. When I was finally allowed entry, not for an instant did I > think I was in an alien land. Why did I not think so; especially when > every other country in Asia, Europe and America felt alien to me? Even > after spending twelve years in Europe I could not think of it as my > home. It took less than a year to think of India as my home. Is it > because we, India and I, share a common history? Had East Bengal > remained a province of undivided India would the state have tolerated > an attack on basic human freedoms and values and the call for the > death by hanging of a secular writer by the proponents of > fundamentalist Islam and self-seeking politicians? How would a secular > democracy have reacted to this threat against one of its own? Or is > the burden of defending human and democratic values solely a European > or American concern? The gates of India remained firmly shut when I > needed her shelter the most. The Europeans welcomed me with open arms. > Yet, in Europe I always considered myself a stranger, an outsider. > After twelve long years in exile when I arrived in India it felt as > though I had been resurrected from some lonely grave. I knew this > land, I knew the people, I had grown up somewhere very similar, almost > indistinguishable. I felt the need to do something for this land and > its people. > There was a burning desire within me to see that women become educated > and independent, that they stand up for and demand their rights and > freedom. I wanted my writing to invigorate and contribute in some way > to the empowerment of these women who had always been oppressed and > suppressed. In the meanwhile, a few Islamic fundamentalists in > Hyderabad chose to launch a physical attack upon me. The decision to > attack me was motivated by the desire to gain popularity among the > local masses. "A woman by the name of Taslima Nasrin has launched a > vicious attack upon Islam and is all set to destroy the tenets of the > faith. Therefore, Islam must be protected from this woman and the only > way to do so is to kill her. Her death will bring many rewards: > millions as fatwa bounty in this world, salvation and unparalleled > delights in the next." This is the manner in which Islamic > fundamentalists in secular India are attempting to entice poor, > uneducated, uninformed Muslims while simultaneously looking to > solidify their vote bank within the community. After hearing of the > incident in Hyderabad, fundamentalist leaders in West Bengal, where I > live, became so excited that they wasted no time in issuing fatwas > against me and calling for my head. Students from madrasas who did not > even know of my existence joined the fray. They knew of my blasphemy > without having read a single one of my books. How did they know? > Because their leaders had assured them that I had made it my mission > to destroy Islam. Therefore, it was their individual and collective > responsibility to protect and preserve their faith. Can one find a > more perfect example of brainwashing? While their knowledge of my work > may be infinitesimal, their knowledge of Islam is equally so and they > have turned their faith into a commodity for their own base ends. > Almost twenty per > cent of India's population is Muslim and, unfortunately, the most > vocal representatives of this considerable community are > fundamentalists. Educated, civilized, cultured and secular people from > the Muslim community are not regarded as representative of the > community . What can be a greater tragedy than this? > > A greater tragedy, arguably, is that I may have to endure in > progressive India, indeed in West Bengal, what I had to endure in > Bangladesh. I live practically under house arrest. No public place is > allegedly safe for me any longer. Not even the homes of friends are > above suspicion, nothing is above suspicion. Even stepping out for a > walk is considered unsafe. It is felt that I should spend my days in a > poorly lit room grappling with shadows. Those who threaten to kill me > are allowed by the state to spew their venom. They have tacitly been > given the rights to do whatever they desire from disturbing the peace > with their demonstrations to terrorizing the common man in the name of > their faith. Those that oppose them and their unholy brand of > communalism, those who take a stance against injustice and untruth are > silenced in invidious ways. I am warned both implicitly and explicitly > that, for example, a fundamentalists' demonstration is about to take > place and it would be best for all concerned if I quietly left the > city. Of course, do return by all means, but only when the situation > has calmed down, I am advised. But will the situation ever calm down? > For the last thirteen years I have been waiting for the situation to > calm down. I was told the same thing when I left Bangladesh to go into > exile. I refuse to leave because to leave would be to accept defeat > and hand the fundamentalists the victory they have always desired. It > would spell defeat for the freedom of expression, independence of > thought, democracy and secularism. I simply refuse to allow them this > victory. If they are eventually victorious, the loss will be as much > mine as India's. If India gives in to the fundamentalists' demand to > deport me, the list of demands will become an endless one. A > deportation today, a ban tomorrow, an execution the day after. Where > will it cease? They will pursue their agenda with boundless enthusiasm > knowing that victory is certain. And, of course, the secular state and > its secular custodians will bow down to every fundamentalist's every > whim and fancy. Giving in to their demands is not a solution and any > attempt to appease them makes them even more dangerous and pernicious. > Even in my worst nightmares I had not imagined that I would be > persecuted in India as I was in Bangladesh. Persecuted by the majority > in one and a minority in another, but persecuted just the same. The > bigotry, the intolerance, the death threats, the terrors: all the > same. I often wonder what good it would do them to kill me. The > fundamentalists are very well aware that it may bring them some > benefit but will do nothing for the cause of Islam. Islam will remain > as it has always remained. Neither I nor any other individual has the > ability to destabilize Islam. The face of fundamentalism, its language > and its intentions are the same the world over: to grab civilization > by the scruff of its neck and drag it back a few millennia kicking and > screaming. My world is gradually shrinking. I, who once roamed the > streets without a care in the world, am now shackled. Always > outspoken, I am now silenced, unable to demonstrate, left without the > means of protesting for what I hold dear. Film festivals, concerts and > plays all continue around me but I cannot participate. I spend my > existence surrounded by walls: a prisoner. But I refuse to acknowledge > this as my destiny. I still believe that one day I will be able to > resume the life I once enjoyed. I still believe that India, unlike > Bangladesh, will triumph over fundamentalism. I still believe that I > will find shelter and solace here. The love and affection of Indians > is my true shelter and solace. I still believe I will be able to spend > the rest of my life here free of cares and worries. I love this > country. I treat this land as my own. If I were to be ejected from > this country it would amount to the cold-blooded murder of my most > cherished ideals, perhaps a fate far worse than I could meet at the > hands of any fundamentalist. > > I have nowhere to go, no country or home to return to. India is my > country, India is my home. How much more will I have to endure at the > hands of fundamentalists and their vote-grabbing political allies for > the cardinal sin of daring to articulate the truth? If the > subcontinent turns its back on me I have nowhere to go, no means to > survive. Even after all that has happened, I still believe, I still > dream, that for a sincere, honest, secular writer, India is the safest > refuge, the only refuge. > > Kolkata > 18 september > > ------ > > The Vanishing > Taslima Nasreen > > Where am I? I am certain no one will believe me if I say I have no > answer to this apparently straightforward question. They may believe > what they wish, but the truth is I just do not know. I don't even > know how I am. Sometimes I even appear to forget my own existence. I > am like the living dead: benumbed; robbed of the pleasure of existence > and experience; unable to move beyond the claustrophobic confines of > my room. Day and night, night and day. Death becomes an intimate. We > embrace. Yes, this is how I have been surviving. > This did not begin the other day when I was bundled out of Kolkata. > This has been going on for a while. It is like a slow and lingering > death, like sipping delicately from a cupful of slow-acting poison > that is gradually killing all my faculties. This is a conspiracy to > murder my essence, my being, once so courageous, so brave, so > dynamic, so playful. I realize what is going on around me but am > utterly helpless, despite my best efforts, to wage a battle on my own > behalf. I am merely a disembodied voice. Those who once stood by me > have disappeared into the darkness. > > I ask myself: what heinous crime have I committed? Why am I here, in > this singularly unenviable position? What sort of life is this where I > can neither cross my own threshold nor know the joys of human company. > What crime have I committed that I have to spend my life hidden away, > relegated to the shadows? For what crimes am I being punished by this > society, this land, this world? I wrote of my beliefs and my > convictions. I used words, not violence, to express my ideas. I did > not take recourse to pelting stones or bloodshed to make my point. > Yet, I am considered a criminal. I am being persecuted because it was > felt that the right of others to express their opinions was more > legitimate than mine. To disobey the powers that be is to court public > crucifixion. Yes, I am a victim of this new crucifixion: is the nation > not a witness to my suffering? Does the nation not witness my immense > suffering, the death of my hopes, aspirations, and desires? > > Does the nation not realize how immense the suffering must be for an > individual to renounce her most deeply held beliefs? How humiliated, > frightened, and insecure I must have been to allow my words to be > censored. Only the expurgation of what they considered offensive > satisfied them. If I had not agreed to their grotesque bowdlerization, > I would have been hounded and pursued till I dropped dead. Their > politics, their faith, their barbarism, and their diabolical purposes > are all intent on sucking the lifeblood out of me. They will continue > till they have bled me dry, expurgated these words, and removed these > truths which are so difficult for them to stomach. Words are harmless, > truth defenceless and devoid of arms. Truth has always been > vanquished by the force of might. How can I – a powerless and > unprotected individual – battle brute force? Come what may, though, I > cannot take recourse to untruth. > > What have I to offer but love and compassion? I have never wished ill > of anybody. Call me romantic but I dream of a world of harmonious > coexistence free from the shackles of hatred and strife. In the way > that they used hatred to rip out my words, I would like to use > compassion and love to rip the hatred out of them. Certainly, I am > enough of a realist to acknowledge that strife, hatred, cruelty, and > barbarism are integral elements of the human condition. This will not > change; such is the way of the world. I am an utterly > insignificant creature: how can I change all this? Even if I were to > be eradicated or exterminated it would not matter one whit to the > world at large. I know all this. Yet, I had imagined Bengal would be > different. I had thought the madness of her people was temporary. I > had thought that the Bengal I loved so passionately would never > forsake me. > > She did. > > Exiled from Bangladesh, I wandered around the world for many years > like a lost orphan. The moment I was given shelter in West Bengal it > felt as though all those years of numbing tiredness just melted away. > I was able to resume a normal life in a beloved and familiar land. So > long as I survive, I will carry within me the vistas of Bengal, her > sunshine, her wet earth, her very essence. The same Bengal whose > sanctuary I once walked a million blood-soaked miles to reach has now > turned its back upon me. I find it hard to believe that I am no longer > wanted in Bengal. I am a Bengali within and without; I live, breathe, > and dream in Bengali but, bizarrely, Bengal offers me no refuge > > I am a guest in this land, I must be careful of what I say. I must do > nothing which violates the code of hospitality. I did not come here to > hurt anyone's sentiments or feelings. Arguably, I came here to be > hurt. Wounded and hurt in my own country, I suffered slights and > injuries in many lands before I reached India, where I knew I would be > hurt yet again. > > This is, after all, a democratic and secular land where the politics > of the vote bank implies that being secular is equated with being > pro-Muslim fundamentalists. I do not wish to believe all this. I do > not wish to hear all this. Yet, all around me I read, hear, and see > evidence of this. I sometimes wish I could be like those mythical > monkeys, oblivious of all that is going on around me. Death who visits > me in many forms now feels like a friend. I feel like talking to him, > unburdening myself to him. You must realize I have no one to speak to, > no one to unburden myself to. > > I have lost my beloved Bengal. The Bengal I cherished, whose land, > smells and sounds, hose very air was a part of me, is gone. I had to > leave Bengal. No child torn from its other's breast could have > suffered as much as I did during that painful parting. Once gain, I > have lost the mother from whose womb I was born. The pain is no less > than the ay I lost my biological mother. My mother had always wanted > me to return home. That was something I could not do. After settling > down in Kolkata, I was able to tell my mother, ho by then was a memory > within me, that I had indeed returned home. How did it matter which > side of an artificial divide I was on? I do not have the courage to > tell my mother that my life now is that of a nomad. How can I tell her > that those who had given me shelter saw it fit to expel me so > unceremoniously? My sensitive mother would be hattered if I were to > tell her all this. I choose not to tell her, not even when I am lonely > and alone. Instead, I have now taken to convincing myself that I must > have transgressed somewhere, committed some grievous error. Why else > would I be in such an unenviable situation? Is daring to utter the > truth a terrible sin in this era of falsehood and deceit? Don't others > tell the truth? Surely they do not have to undergo such tribulations? > Why do I have to undergo such suffering? Is it because I am a woman? > What can be easier than assailing a woman? > > I know I have not been condemned by the masses. If their opinion had > been sought, I am ctain the majority would have wanted me to stay on > in Bengal. But when has a emocracy reflected the voice of the masses? > A democracy is run by those who hold the reins of power who do exactly > what they think fit. An insignificant individual, I must ow live life > on my own terms and write about what I believe in and hold dear. It is > not my desire to harm, malign, or deceive. I do not lie. I try not to > be offensive. I am but a simple writer who neither knows nor > understands the dynamics of politics. The way in which I was turned > into a political pawn, however, and treated at the hands of base > politicians, beggars belief. For what end you may well ask. A few > measly votes. It is I who have suffered; I am the only victim of this > great tragedy. The force of fundamentalism, which I have opposed and > fought for very many years, has only been strengthened by my tragic > defeat. > > This is my beloved India, where I have been living and writing on > secular humanism, uman rights, and emancipation of women. This is also > the land where I have had to suffer and pay the price for my most > deeply held and fundamental convictions, where not a single political > party of any persuasion has spoken out in my favour, where no > non-governmental organization, women's rights' or human rights' group, > has stood by me or ondemned the vicious attacks launched upon me. This > India is not known to me . Yes, it s true that individuals in a > scattered, unorganized manner are fighting for my cause and > ournalists, writers, and intellectuals have spoken out in my favour. I > do not know whether hey are familiar with my work or not, indeed if > they have even read a single word I have > penned. Yet, I am grateful for their opinions and support. > > Wherever individuals gather in groups, they seem to lose their power > to speak out. Frankly, this facet of the new India terrifies me. Then > again, is this a new India, or even a facet of a new India; or is it > the true face of the nation? I do not know. Since my earliest > childhood I have regarded India as a great land and a fearless nation. > The land of my dreams: enlightened, strong, progressive, and tolerant. > I wish to live to be proud of that India. I will die a happy person > the day I know India has forsaken darkness for light, > bigotry for tolerance. I await that day. I do not know whether I will > survive, but India and what she stands for has to survive, must be > allowed to survive. > > 18 December > Delhi > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 10:37:34 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 05:07:34 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> <6b79f1a70712232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan,Did you say 'peaceful' and secure state to Gujaratis? Who are these Gujaratis? I am certain that the Gujarati Muslims of Gujarat are as Gujarati as the 'Hindus' that you keep referring to are Gujaratis. Perhaps you should be a bit specific on who these Gujaratis are? I am sure it must be a very peaceful time for Gujaratis post March and April 2002, and that voting under duress is as peaceful as blood pressure and hypertension. I am also waiting for Modi in Delhi. Perhaps then we can witness a peaceful repeat of some events of 1983, this time in the name of an Akhand Gujarat. Jai bharat, Jai Gujarat, Jai Modi, Jai Pawan putra, Yours truly, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 10:27 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Modi's victory is a victory of Hindus as almost everyone had started > categorising Hindus as someone who have terrorised muslims in Gujarat. > > Modi not only gave good governance , he laso gave a peaceful and secure > state to Gujaratis. His victory is victory to all Gujaratis irrespective of > being Hindus , muslims or Parsis. > > The Good governance wins , the respect of majority community wins , the > confidence and security to minorties wins. The Psuedosecularists lost all. > > This time it was Gujarat .... We all are waiting for Modi in Delhi....just > few months to go. > > > On 12/24/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear > > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > > Hindu > > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > > are > > not Hindus. > > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand > > your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > that > > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers, > > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin > > ka > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > > Advani > > > be > > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > > > for > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > > have > > > won, Hindus have > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > > mouth > > > next time. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > To: < reader-list at sarai.net>; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > question. > > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > > psudo > > > > seculars! > > > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > showing > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 10:45:58 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 05:15:58 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My dear Vedavati,When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. In peace, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > dear zainab, > > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only because > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had voted > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after partition. > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. > > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india like > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > sentiments. > > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. > > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still -congress > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings what > about 'kashmiri pundits'? > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted. > that is why it is their victory! > > vedavati > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > Hi, > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: TaraPrakash > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > unclear > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourself > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > are > not Hindus. > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > Again, apologies for nagging you. > Cheers, > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > > be > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > > for > > floating her own party against BJP? > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > have > > won, Hindus have > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > mouth > > next time. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > To: ; > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question. > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > psudo > > > seculars! > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > showing > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > From vadhimoolam at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 11:50:41 2007 From: vadhimoolam at gmail.com (Vetrivel Adhimoolam) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 06:20:41 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: DEFANGED[1694]:<843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com><602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net><007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash><6b79f1a70712 " " 232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That's correct Zainab. There is another increasing trend here. Because of the crude application of the Western capitalist liberal democracy to countries like India, we see miss use or rather abuse of terms like majoritarianism to trash the undeniable historical happenings. ----- Original Message ----- From: Zainab Bawa To: Pawan Durani Cc: reader-list at sarai.net ; Vedavati Jogi Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Pawan,Did you say 'peaceful' and secure state to Gujaratis? Who are these Gujaratis? I am certain that the Gujarati Muslims of Gujarat are as Gujarati as the 'Hindus' that you keep referring to are Gujaratis. Perhaps you should be a bit specific on who these Gujaratis are? I am sure it must be a very peaceful time for Gujaratis post March and April 2002, and that voting under duress is as peaceful as blood pressure and hypertension. I am also waiting for Modi in Delhi. Perhaps then we can witness a peaceful repeat of some events of 1983, this time in the name of an Akhand Gujarat. Jai bharat, Jai Gujarat, Jai Modi, Jai Pawan putra, Yours truly, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 10:27 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Modi's victory is a victory of Hindus as almost everyone had started > categorising Hindus as someone who have terrorised muslims in Gujarat. > > Modi not only gave good governance , he laso gave a peaceful and secure > state to Gujaratis. His victory is victory to all Gujaratis irrespective > of > being Hindus , muslims or Parsis. > > The Good governance wins , the respect of majority community wins , the > confidence and security to minorties wins. The Psuedosecularists lost all. > > This time it was Gujarat .... We all are waiting for Modi in Delhi....just > few months to go. > > > On 12/24/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear > > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > > Hindu > > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > > are > > not Hindus. > > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand > > your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > that > > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers, > > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin > > ka > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > > Advani > > > be > > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > > > for > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > > have > > > won, Hindus have > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > > mouth > > > next time. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > To: < reader-list at sarai.net>; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > question. > > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > > psudo > > > > seculars! > > > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > showing > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 12:03:48 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 06:33:48 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Chanchal,I am still not certain if Narendra's Modi's win is Hindu's victory. I know at least two 'Hindus', both residing in my house, who believe that Modi's victory is not their victory. In fact, they fear that with Modi's win, there may be more repression and violence in Gujarat and in other parts of India, in the name of 'terrorism' whether it is Muslim terror or Hindu terror or Christian terror. On the other hand, I am sure there is a segment of the Muslim population that is extremely happy with Modi's victory either because it furthers their corporate interests and/or because they are Modi supporters, going to RSS camps. You can call these Muslims nationalists (which I am sure they don't give two hoots about) or secularists or true Hindustanis. Arguments against how Muslims don't raise their voice when there is Nandigram or some such thing is as banal as Vedavati's (and others') angst against 'pseudo-secularists'. Also this rant (if I may call it so) about the displacement of Kashmiri pandits and their refugee status is unconvincing when those 'Muslims' (if you may please) who are still living in Kashmir are refugees from the state and its violence, the recent case being that of taking away lands from rural Kashmiris to build some power plant, thereby displacing them of their livelihoods and whatever little they can hold on to for their lives. How many 'Muslims' (again if you may please), living in 'India' have raised their voices against the state atrocities and violence committed against 'Kashmiri Muslims' (again and again if you may please) forget about saying anything in sympathy for the 'Pandits'? If you ask my Gujjubhai father about who he hates most, it is not the Hindus who burnt his factory in the 1993 riots, but his hatred is directed towards Bohra Muslims, Bangladeshi Muslims and the Punjabi Muslims of Pakistan. He couldn't care about the situation in Kashmir as long as some state violence in Kashmir does not affect him to the extent of bringing one more mob to burn down his house or his children, yet again. Making statements in anger, at random, is extremely easy for all of us, whether we are pseudo-secularists, anti-secularists, pro-secularists, techno-secularists, no-secularists, or amoeba. I am sure we are all angry with the violences committed against us, at some point or another, but true courage, perseverance, patience and forgiveness lies in looking inwards, to our own prejudices and to our own hatreds, because after all, the hatred and violence in this world comes from our own insides. Yours truly, (diadactic Gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 9:34 AM, chanchal malviya < chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi, > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: TaraPrakash > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > unclear > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourself > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > are > not Hindus. > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > Again, apologies for nagging you. > Cheers, > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > > be > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > > > for > > floating her own party against BJP? > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > have > > won, Hindus have > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > mouth > > next time. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com> > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question. > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > psudo > > > seculars! > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > showing > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > From vrjogi at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 12:13:06 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 06:43:06 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: my dear zainab, nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own mistakes. (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra station? even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not a magnonimity shown by hindus? id you reciprocate? did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where babri structure once stood? if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for reservations..! (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building. if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for hindu sentiments too. vedavati Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. In peace, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their victory! vedavati Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: vrjogi at hotmail.com Hi, You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the problem of communalism on their own motherland.. Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, it is humanity that has won.. Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big mass when there is anything related to their religion... But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in Terrorist attacks... Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal becoming another Kashmir.. Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had Godhra would not have taken place... Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected from their month.... I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus win... Jai Hind, ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 From mohit.thatte at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 13:52:47 2007 From: mohit.thatte at gmail.com (Mohit Thatte) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 08:22:47 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16189fe60712250022pa8abebfo7c58dabf85ee7f22@mail.gmail.com> Dear Vedavati, As an Indian first and a Hindu second, I want to point out a few flaws in your argument. 1. Zainab or anyone for that matter has the right to practice any religion they want and this right is granted by the constitution of our country. She need not go anywhere as long as she lives by the laws of the land. 2. Yes, according to the media the riots were started by Muslims perhaps. But how do you know that they were not ISI agents who did it on purpose because their aim was to tear apart the social fabric that binds our beautiful country. 3. About the role of Madrassa's I am going to keep quiet. I have heard too many bad things about indoctrination in Madrassa's to support their existence. Any organization which preaches hate and violence is unlawful and a danger to society and should be eradicated. Of course I am sure there exist good Madrassas as well which serve as they are supposed to. 4. The law should be the same for all. The law MUST be blind to religion. At the same time the law MUST NOT interfere with freedom of choice. 5. I don't understand what you mean by the statement - "join hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building." Many Muslims today live in fear. They are actively shunned by the "mainstream" and castigated as desh-drohi and what not. This is absolute crap (excuse my language). Stereotyping is a typical Indian thing to do - irony in that statement! But just because of a few bad apples, don't say apples are bad for health. If Praveen Togadia was shown to me as the "representative" of Hindus then I would feel all Hindus are bloodthirsty crazies. But that is not true! So there.... ~Mohit PS: This is my first post on this list. Please let me know if I have broken any rules or not followed list-etiquette. On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > my dear zainab, > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > mistakes. > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > station? > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > id you reciprocate? > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > babri structure once stood? > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for > reservations..! > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > hindu sentiments too. > > vedavati > > > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal > rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to > live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that > you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or > not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have > to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots > in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the > 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba > Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is > a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no > sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. > In peace, > Zainab (gujju ben) > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims > who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india > after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations > to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & > obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, > amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from > ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress > & left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of > 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt > muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about > '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always > been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains > still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when > person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' > killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that > hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > victory! vedavati > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > Hi, > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > Jai Hind, > > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory is > a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several > of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that just as all > Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize > for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting thatModi's victory is > now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for > nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, > TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat of > Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with > Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son > murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? > Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own > party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and > Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets > canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before > putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message > -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: < > reader-list at sarai.net>; > Sent: Sunday, December 23, > 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> >> >> > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question.> > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais > for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be > formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried > the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject > header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- -Mohit Thatte "*Smart one-liner goes here*" From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 14:08:31 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 08:38:31 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Vedavati, Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu' brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how I can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask my Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are and how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments, then I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu' colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I can support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians, Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will do what you have suggested. As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I cannot remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in this part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that happens to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my place and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan or India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric imagination of the city. It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'. Is there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims' to go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning' 'us' to? Truly, Zainab P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built. All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan 1993 for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes. On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > my dear zainab, > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > mistakes. > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > station? > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > id you reciprocate? > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > babri structure once stood? > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence > demand for reservations..! > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > hindu sentiments too. > > vedavati > > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530 > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. > In peace, > Zainab (gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > dear zainab, > > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only because > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had voted > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after partition. > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. > > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india like > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > sentiments. > > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. > > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still -congress > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings what > about 'kashmiri pundits'? > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted. > that is why it is their victory! > > vedavati > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > Hi, > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: TaraPrakash > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > unclear > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourself > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > are > not Hindus. > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > Again, apologies for nagging you. > Cheers, > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > > be > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > > > for > > floating her own party against BJP? > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > have > > won, Hindus have > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > mouth > > next time. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > To: ; > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question. > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > psudo > > > seculars! > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > showing > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > > ------------------------------ > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 14:22:19 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 08:52:19 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <620966.51759.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Wow!!! That's Vedavati. Certainly true voice about invasion, about Indian History and partition. At least One person who talked openly on these topics. Let me tell you that Muslims in India are more powerful than anybody in the world. They can do whatever they wish, they expect that no body can do anything. They can beat doctors,poets, they can ruin culture, they can do blasts in public places, they can do businesses, they can become leaders to electorate. From one side Islamic ransacking(with all tactics like building masjids on the debris of temples and using CASTE tab of Hindutva), other side christian ransacking(like building churches and graceful conversions in the name of performing weakly prayers), Atheists ransacking of culture(like Karunanidhi QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF RAM, SO THAT ENCOURAGING EVERYBODY TO LIVE PRETTY OPENLY) What is left in India now ? No body listening to anybody about anything. The question is If people opted for India even after partition then what is the need for PAKISTAN(a separate country for Muslims on the basis of 2 nation theory) ,later nusense and requests for apologies for the whatever history from their ancestors, starting from BABAR TO AURANGZEB and later zinnah to MIM leaders attack on junior doctors at HYDERABAD recently. Is there a single place left in India that a Muslim family live in India (before and after partition)? Is there a single place and area left that they try to DOMINATE in their own style and way(all aggressive attacks and damage initially and then request for pardons etc)?? Regards, Dhatri. Vedavati Jogi wrote: my dear zainab, nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own mistakes. (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra station? even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not a magnonimity shown by hindus? id you reciprocate? did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where babri structure once stood? if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for reservations..! (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building. if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for hindu sentiments too. vedavati Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. In peace, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their victory! vedavati Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: vrjogi at hotmail.com Hi, You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the problem of communalism on their own motherland.. Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, it is humanity that has won.. Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big mass when there is anything related to their religion... But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in Terrorist attacks... Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal becoming another Kashmir.. Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had Godhra would not have taken place... Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected from their month.... I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus win... Jai Hind, ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 14:43:13 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:13:13 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <620966.51759.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can you all please NOT hit reply-all. Write directly on the readers list. On Dec 25, 2007 3:01 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > Oh by the way Vedavati, you must tell me why you consider Shah Rukh Khan to > be a 'Muslim'. Just because he is 'Khan'? I have not heard Shah Rukh raise > his voice against any atrocities against Hindus or Muslims. And besides, > what kind of an image does he portray in his characterization in films? > Surely not 'Muslim' but an 'urban' boy, slightly 'Hindu' with some temple > going scenes. I am sure that 'Muslim' 'audiences' enjoy this > characterization just as much as 'Hindus' 'Christians' and amoeba do. > > > On Dec 25, 2007 2:22 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > Wow!!! > > That's Vedavati. Certainly true voice about invasion, about > Indian History and partition. At least One person who talked openly on > these topics. Let me tell you that Muslims in India are more powerful than > anybody in the world. They can do whatever they wish, they expect that no > body can do anything. They can beat doctors,poets, they can ruin culture, > they can do blasts in public places, they can do businesses, they can become > leaders to electorate. > > > > > > From one side Islamic ransacking(with all tactics like building masjids on > the debris of temples and using CASTE tab of Hindutva), other side christian > ransacking(like building churches and graceful conversions in the name of > performing weakly prayers), Atheists ransacking of culture(like Karunanidhi > QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF RAM, SO THAT ENCOURAGING EVERYBODY TO LIVE > PRETTY OPENLY) What is left in India now ? No body listening to anybody > about anything. > > > > > > The question is If people opted for India even after partition then what > is the need for PAKISTAN(a separate country for Muslims on the basis of 2 > nation theory) ,later nusense and requests for apologies for the whatever > history from their ancestors, starting from BABAR TO AURANGZEB and later > zinnah to MIM leaders attack on junior doctors at HYDERABAD recently. > > > > > > Is there a single place left in India that a Muslim family live in India > (before and after partition)? > > > > Is there a single place and area left that they try to DOMINATE in their > own style and way(all aggressive attacks and damage initially and then > request for pardons etc)?? > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > my dear zainab, > > > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > mistakes. > > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > station? > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > > > id you reciprocate? > > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > babri structure once stood? > > > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you send > your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs anywhere > because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for > reservations..! > > > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. > > > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > hindu sentiments too. > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, > > > > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal > rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to > live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that > you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or > not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have > to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots > in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the > 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba > Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is > a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no > sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. > > In peace, > > Zainab (gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims > who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india > after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations > to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & > obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, > amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from > ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress & > left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of > 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt > muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always > been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains > still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when > person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' > killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that > hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > victory! vedavati > > > > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: TaraPrakash Cc: > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, > December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi > Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas > to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourselfhave accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all > Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability > to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are > you suggesting thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat > of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented > with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son > murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? > Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own > party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and > Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets > canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before > putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message > -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > Sent: Sunday, > December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> > >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener > for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank > you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote > bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried > the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > From oishiksircar at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 14:52:09 2007 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:22:09 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> Dear Vedavati: Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindu brother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing it over and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean... May be that should be your new year resolution... Good luck... Oishik P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of a certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... I know we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season! On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu' > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how > I > can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I > > have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask > my > Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are > and > how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments, > then > I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu' > colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can > support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians, > Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour > different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may > > have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will > do what you have suggested. > > As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I > cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this > 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in > this > part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that > happens > to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their > place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge > from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her > neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her > statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my > place > and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or > India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric > imagination of the city. > > It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last > refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'. > Is > there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims' > to > go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning' > > 'us' to? > > Truly, > Zainab > P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots > caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai > concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built. > All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan > 1993 > for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian > descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes. > > > On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > my dear zainab, > > > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to > live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes. > > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station? > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not > > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > > > id you reciprocate? > > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place > where > > babri structure once stood? > > > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think > > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete > with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they > don't > > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... > hence > > demand for reservations..! > > > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible. > > > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future > also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > muslim > > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > votes. > > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take > > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, > instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands > > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too. > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530 > > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead > he > > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > > > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt > > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and > when > > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary > > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? > What > > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in > the > > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one > > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. > > > In peace, > > Zainab (gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > dear zainab, > > > > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only > because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had > voted > > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after > partition. > > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. > > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. > > > > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india > like > > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan, > > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and > > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked > > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. > > > > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis > > > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common > > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. > > > > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the > > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress > > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like > > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings > what > > about 'kashmiri pundits'? > > > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for > granted. > > that is why it is their victory! > > > > vedavati > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > > Hi, > > > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other > words, > > it is humanity that has won.. > > > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in > big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks... > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a > word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to > make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that > all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN > > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority > of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > > becoming another Kashmir.. > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same > God is > > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > through > > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > to > > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > start > > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > > > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place... > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is > expected > > from their month.... > > > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win... > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear > > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > > Hindu > > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus > > > are > > not Hindus. > > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand > your > > > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > that > > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers, > > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin > ka > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani > > > be > > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > communal > > > > > for > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > > have > > > won, Hindus have > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > > mouth > > > next time. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > question. > > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > > psudo > > > > seculars! > > > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > showing > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 From aman.am at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 15:02:52 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:32:52 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Rs125 crore spent on Mutton in one day in Kashmir.... In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70712210913t249afe3dn12ccbf74d934edd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <995a19920712250132l628c1666m4bf08d2261090da7@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, I "did the math" as suggested by Babu. Acc to the census of india website - the projected population of J&K in 2006 is 11,603,000. Adopting simple unitary method; if 11,603,000 people spend Rs 125,00,00,000; each person spends Rs 107.7 on eid However, if each kilo of meat costs Rs 90; 24 lakh kilos of meat shall cost Rs 21,60,00,000 or about Rs 22 crore- which is significantly lower than the Rs 125 crore cited by the article. Cleary the 125 crore includes money spent on other things - presumably masalas to cook the meat etc. Thus each person spends a total of Rs 107.7 of which about Rs 18.6 is on meat - which shall buy him/her about 200 grams of meat. That leaves about Rs 89 for other things. However, a UNI that i have pasted below suggests that the govt fixed price is actually Rs 125 per kilo - which means our 24 lakh kilos of meat now cost Rs 30,00,00,000 or Rs 30 crore - which means each kasmiri now spends about Rs 26 on meat for the same 200 grams. However, the article suggests that meat is actually being sold at Rs 150 per kilo! A true case of blackmarketing and profiteering if there ever was one. Which suggests even more spent per person on that 200 grams of meat - and even less on other things. Further, a tribune article from 2004 -suggests that the price of meat was fixed at a flat Rs 60 - 3 years ago - so it seems that meat prices have been steadily rising - to the extent that the govt fixed price has risen by a 108 per cent in three years! As we all know - rising prices are a sign of surplus production, supply far outstripping demand and people getting richer and richer and richer to actually push the prices up inspite of the economy doing so well. Clearly kashmir much be doing really really well. And to think we in Delhi are forced to pay low prices for our mutton - how typical of this kashmiri appeasing government! best a. Srinagar: After the shifting of civil secretariat, the seat of the government, to the winter capital Jammu, the local administration in Kashmir has almost become non existence as the prices of essential commodities have gone up and there is acute electricity shortage. People in general in the valley alleged that prices of almost all essential commodities has gone up after the shifting of office to Jammu on November 1. There was a sudden increase of Rs two per kg milk being supplied by different milk agencies in the valley. There is no checking of prices and shopkeepers are selling the essential commodities on higher prices defying the government approved rate, said Muhammad Altaf, a telephone booth owner. A UNI correspondent who visited different markets in the city saw shopkeepers selling their products on very high rates. A butcher in the civil line area was selling one kg of meat at Rs 150 against the government approved rate of Rs 125. The rate of one dozen eggs which was Rs 22 before shifting of the offices is now Rs 28 to Rs 30, depending upon the area. Altaf alleged that the flying squads set up by the administration to check the prices are in league with the shopkeepers. They are getting their share in the profit from the shopkeepers, he said adding for records the members of the flying squad are booking some small shopkeepers. The price of one kg cheese which was Rs 70 a fortnight ago has risen to Rs 80 to 90 now. Similarly the prices of all pulses has also gone up by Rs 10 to Rs 15 per kg. An increase of Rs 30 was also registered in five kg tin of cooking oil of different brands. The price of half a kg butter which was Rs 72 before shifting of offices to Jammu, has gone up by Rs ten while Rs 100 to Rs 200 increase was recorded per quintal of rice. Ten kg of flour which was Rs 110 earlier is now being sold at Rs 150 and prices of chicken has also gone up to Rs 65 per kg against the government approved rate of Rs 55. The prices of vegetables have also gone up by Rs five to Rs ten per kg. The common people in Kashmir alleged that the divisional administration and the consumer affairs department have failed to get the prices fixed by the government implemented. They alleged that no action is being taken against the shopkeepers even after making complaints with concerned agencies. The power crisis get complicated in the valley after the shifting of darbar move offices. Besides ten hour daily power curtailment, people in the Kashmir valley alleged that there is frequent electricity failure during other parts of the day also. People at several places took to streets protesting the power failures. UNI On Dec 21, 2007 10:43 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > *Kashmir's Bakr Eid spend crosses Rs125 crore * > http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1140648 > > > "...... > > More than four lakh animals will be slaughtered in Kashmir; around 70,000 in > Srinagar alone. "People have spent huge amounts of money on buying animals > for offering sacrifices this Eid. We have fixed a rate of Rs90 per kg of > meat. More than 24 lakh kgs of meat will be distributed," said Dr Shafat > Kakroo, general manager J&K Sheep Development Board... > > ........" > > > > And they have the gall to say that they are economically impoverished....and > then our PM Dr. Singh attributes the emergence of terrorism to economic > backwardness.......What CoolAid is he drinking? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Dec 25 15:33:20 2007 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:03:20 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30712250202t2c245158n8d93ce9c99bc172c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Vedavati, Zainab ain't going anywhere clearly. It is you who might want to migrate to Pakistan for some time. It'll clear up a lot of things in your head. Like Advani went to Pakistan and called Jinnah secular... Jai Shri Ram! Shivam On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > Dear Vedavati: > > Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindu > brother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it > feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing it > over and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean... > > May be that should be your new year resolution... > > Good luck... > > Oishik > > P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of a > certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... I > know we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I > hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season! From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 16:15:30 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:30 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Naeem check before you write In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <337971.19391.qm@web57209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Naeem I see no reason for you to shoot off your mail to my email address. I have not sent or copied any email in the last quite a few weeks to your address. Check before you write. If you are getting copies of all mails posted into Sarai and do not want them, then you need to change your Reader List Settings Kshmendra Kaul Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: Can you all please NOT hit reply-all. Write directly on the readers list. On Dec 25, 2007 3:01 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > Oh by the way Vedavati, you must tell me why you consider Shah Rukh Khan to > be a 'Muslim'. Just because he is 'Khan'? I have not heard Shah Rukh raise > his voice against any atrocities against Hindus or Muslims. And besides, > what kind of an image does he portray in his characterization in films? > Surely not 'Muslim' but an 'urban' boy, slightly 'Hindu' with some temple > going scenes. I am sure that 'Muslim' 'audiences' enjoy this > characterization just as much as 'Hindus' 'Christians' and amoeba do. > > > On Dec 25, 2007 2:22 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > Wow!!! > > That's Vedavati. Certainly true voice about invasion, about > Indian History and partition. At least One person who talked openly on > these topics. Let me tell you that Muslims in India are more powerful than > anybody in the world. They can do whatever they wish, they expect that no > body can do anything. They can beat doctors,poets, they can ruin culture, > they can do blasts in public places, they can do businesses, they can become > leaders to electorate. > > > > > > From one side Islamic ransacking(with all tactics like building masjids on > the debris of temples and using CASTE tab of Hindutva), other side christian > ransacking(like building churches and graceful conversions in the name of > performing weakly prayers), Atheists ransacking of culture(like Karunanidhi > QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF RAM, SO THAT ENCOURAGING EVERYBODY TO LIVE > PRETTY OPENLY) What is left in India now ? No body listening to anybody > about anything. > > > > > > The question is If people opted for India even after partition then what > is the need for PAKISTAN(a separate country for Muslims on the basis of 2 > nation theory) ,later nusense and requests for apologies for the whatever > history from their ancestors, starting from BABAR TO AURANGZEB and later > zinnah to MIM leaders attack on junior doctors at HYDERABAD recently. > > > > > > Is there a single place left in India that a Muslim family live in India > (before and after partition)? > > > > Is there a single place and area left that they try to DOMINATE in their > own style and way(all aggressive attacks and damage initially and then > request for pardons etc)?? > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > my dear zainab, > > > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > mistakes. > > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > station? > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > > > id you reciprocate? > > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > babri structure once stood? > > > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you send > your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs anywhere > because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for > reservations..! > > > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. > > > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > hindu sentiments too. > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, > > > > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal > rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to > live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that > you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or > not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have > to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots > in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the > 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba > Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is > a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no > sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. > > In peace, > > Zainab (gujju ben) > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims > who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india > after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations > to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & > obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, > amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from > ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress & > left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of > 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt > muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always > been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains > still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when > person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' > killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that > hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > victory! vedavati > > > > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: TaraPrakash Cc: > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, > December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi > Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas > to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > yourselfhave accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all > Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability > to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are > you suggesting thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat > of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented > with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son > murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? > Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own > party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and > Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets > canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before > putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message > -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > Sent: Sunday, > December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> > >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener > for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank > you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote > bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried > the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Tue Dec 25 17:28:29 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 11:58:29 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] H sentiments up your A In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30712250202t2c245158n8d93ce9c99bc172c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <466125.95143.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Oishik and others (maybe not Zainab) I am sorry, but it seems all that the Psecularists are left to do now is to jerk their knees to show their frustration. Have we fallen so low after the defeat that we can't even think rationally. Tell me frankly, is this the only way left to make a dialogue. Or are we not interested in a dialogue? Frankly, I am not surprised at Modi's victory. To me, life is not so black and white so as to see it through only an election defeat or victory. Do you think some miracles would happen to turn Gujarat into a peace-utopia had the congress come to power? Its going to take ages to turn this country into a sensible place to live in. Let us first make ourselves a little more sensible. S.F. > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR > wrote: > > Dear Vedavati: > > > > Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... > take that from a Hindu > > brother of yours who had done that a long long > time back... trust me it > > feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of > it... you'll keep doing it > > over and over again... shoving up the Hindu > bullshit I mean... > > > > May be that should be your new year resolution... > > > > Good luck... > > > > Oishik > > > > P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the > purposeful use of a > > certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is > indecent or not)... I > > know we need to confront radicalism with reason... > and not drivel... but I > > hope to be excused this time... for the sake of > the holiday season! > _________________________________________ Do you get hundreds of mails everyday? Delete none. Go to http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_mail_9/*https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From vrjogi at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 18:05:23 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 12:35:23 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <16189fe60712250022pa8abebfo7c58dabf85ee7f22@mail.gmail.com> References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <16189fe60712250022pa8abebfo7c58dabf85ee7f22@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: for your kind information, i had many muslim friends in my school ..office. in day to day life we never gave them any special status/ concession or any different treatment. we never found them different than us. they took part in ganapati immersion procession with us, they joined us in playing crackers during diwali, invited us for id. they never faced any sort of descrimination. in my childhood i had stayed in a village where only 2 muslim families were there. but in all these years i never found muslims living in fear. indian military & indian film industry are the best examples of 'secularism' - where nobody talks about religion. all of them work together, nobody complains of any descrimination. shabana azmi is the recipient of maximum no. of awards for her acting talent. i have not heard anybody taking objection for that only just because she is a muslim. this 'fear' 'descrimination' etc. have been 'created' by politicians & seculars which is not allowing common muslims to live peacefully with hindus because that is not in the interest of the politicians. zainab is as indian as i am irrespective of her religion. but if she feels india is not a good place to live she should opt for pakistan. its upto muslims to decide whether to follow these selfish politicians & seculars or to join hands with hindu brothers. Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 13:52:40 +0530From: mohit.thatte at gmail.comTo: vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netDear Vedavati,As an Indian first and a Hindu second, I want to point out a few flaws in your argument.1. Zainab or anyone for that matter has the right to practice any religion they want and this right is granted by the constitution of our country. She need not go anywhere as long as she lives by the laws of the land. 2. Yes, according to the media the riots were started by Muslims perhaps. But how do you know that they were not ISI agents who did it on purpose because their aim was to tear apart the social fabric that binds our beautiful country. 3. About the role of Madrassa's I am going to keep quiet. I have heard too many bad things about indoctrination in Madrassa's to support their existence. Any organization which preaches hate and violence is unlawful and a danger to society and should be eradicated. Of course I am sure there exist good Madrassas as well which serve as they are supposed to. 4. The law should be the same for all. The law MUST be blind to religion. At the same time the law MUST NOT interfere with freedom of choice. 5. I don't understand what you mean by the statement - "join hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building." Many Muslims today live in fear. They are actively shunned by the "mainstream" and castigated as desh-drohi and what not. This is absolute crap (excuse my language). Stereotyping is a typical Indian thing to do - irony in that statement! But just because of a few bad apples, don't say apples are bad for health. If Praveen Togadia was shown to me as the "representative" of Hindus then I would feel all Hindus are bloodthirsty crazies. But that is not true! So there.... ~MohitPS: This is my first post on this list. Please let me know if I have broken any rules or not followed list-etiquette. On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote: my dear zainab, nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own mistakes.(1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra station?even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is not a magnonimity shown by hindus? id you reciprocate?did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where babri structure once stood?if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand for reservations..! (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?(4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if possible. (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for hindu sentiments too.vedavatiDate: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo : vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned. In peace,Zainab (gujju ben)On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their victory! vedavatiDate: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: vrjogi at hotmail.com Hi,You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the problem of communalism on their own motherland.. Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, it is humanity that has won.. Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big mass when there is anything related to their religion...But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in Terrorist attacks... Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal becoming another Kashmir..Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had Godhra would not have taken place...Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected from their month....I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus win...Jai Hind,----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.inhttp://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 _________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- -Mohit Thatte"*Smart one-liner goes here*" _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 18:20:56 2007 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 12:50:56 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] H sentiments up your A In-Reply-To: <466125.95143.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <466125.95143.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4770FCA6.3090202@gmail.com> I fully agree with Fatima. The antics of Vedavati and her type are distasteful and pointless. Distasteful, because they insist on trying to establish the "rightness" of genocidal tyrants. Pointless, because they cannot succeed even if they try for a thousand years. But being abusive is not the way to engage with them. They need to be dealt with through argumentation if one has the taste for any sort dialogue or debate with them, or by ignoring them, for which the most effective way is to use mail filters. Tapas S.Fatima wrote: > Dear Oishik and others (maybe not Zainab) > I am sorry, but it seems all that the Psecularists are > left to do now is to jerk their knees to show their > frustration. Have we fallen so low after the defeat > that we can't even think rationally. > > Tell me frankly, is this the only way left to make a > dialogue. Or are we not interested in a dialogue? > > Frankly, I am not surprised at Modi's victory. To me, > life is not so black and white so as to see it through > only an election defeat or victory. Do you think some > miracles would happen to turn Gujarat into a > peace-utopia had the congress come to power? > > Its going to take ages to turn this country into a > sensible place to live in. Let us first make ourselves > a little more sensible. > > S.F. > > >> On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Vedavati: >>> >>> Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... >>> >> take that from a Hindu >> >>> brother of yours who had done that a long long >>> >> time back... trust me it >> >>> feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of >>> >> it... you'll keep doing it >> >>> over and over again... shoving up the Hindu >>> >> bullshit I mean... >> >>> May be that should be your new year resolution... >>> >>> Good luck... >>> >>> Oishik >>> >>> P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the >>> >> purposeful use of a >> >>> certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is >>> >> indecent or not)... I >> >>> know we need to confront radicalism with reason... >>> >> and not drivel... but I >> >>> hope to be excused this time... for the sake of >>> >> the holiday season! >> _________________________________________ >> > > > > Do you get hundreds of mails everyday? Delete none. Go to http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_mail_9/*https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vrjogi at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 18:28:15 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 12:58:15 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <476FFA35.6030304@sarai.net> References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <954468CDFD684977AEBF71AFBDDC9FC6@vetrivel> <476FB726.1010102@sarai.net> <476FFA35.6030304@sarai.net> Message-ID: riots took place in 1992-93 and gujrat killings happened in 2002, but what about those thousand years when muslims killed, looted, raped hindus, what about 1947 when they partitioned bharat which is supposed to be their motherland too. have you ever met any 1947 refugee ? have you ever tried to understand problems faced by them? whether you accept it or not hindus have shown great magnonimity in allowing muslims to stay in this country after 1947. how many times muslims have reciprocated? can you tell me one example?- have they allowed their hindu brothers to build ram temple in ayodhya on the place where babri structure stood? do they accept uniform civil code? are they ready to sing 'vande mataram?' you go & ask dr. abdul kalam whether he has faced any discrimination because of his religion. shabana azami or javed akhtar who keep complaining against socalled discrimination, have got maximum no. of filmfare awards. still why this false propaganda? i am not saying that hindus in gujrat should take revenge of muslims, because i know 'eye for eye will make this whole world blind'. what is bothering me is this type of secularism at the expense of hindu sentiments is causing great harm and unfortunately poor innocent muslim has to bear the brunt. > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 23:58:05 +0530> From: vivek at sarai.net> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > Vedavati,> > To clarify-- the symmetry I speak of refers to the remarkable similarity > (in opposite directions), in rationale and strategy, between right-wing > terroristic hinduism and right-wing terroristic islamism. Whether or > not a given state supports or sponsors or bankrolls your particular > brand of terrorism or not is a separate issue.> > You want to take revenge for what was done to the Kashmiri Pandits. > Don't you understand that radical Muslims will want to take revenge for > what was done to Muslims in Gujarat? > > I ask you again, where do you expect this will end? Where do you expect > these fantasies of taking revenge will land us? Answer me.> > Vivek> > Vedavati Jogi wrote:> > vivek,> > > > this hatred arises due to 'asymmetric' secularism.> > > > otherwise there is no difference between ordinary hindu & ordinary > > muslim. i am a maharashtrian married to a kashmiri hindu. there is a > > huge difference between our respective cultures even though both of us > > are hindu brahmins coming from same socio-economic class.> > > > but to my great surprise there is not much difference between kashmiri > > hindu & kashmiri muslim. before 1989 my husband says there was no > > enmity between two communities, instead he had many muslim friends in > > his college.> > > > but after 1989, hindus became refugees in their own country.actually > > its a shame on all of us. but none of our prime ministers got time to > > visit their camps in jammu or delhi. there is no succhar committee, no > > economic package , no budget allocation for these refugees. our > > secular politicians are ready to 'talk' to 'terrorists' who have > > (1)killed hindus including our military men, (2)pulled down temples, > > (3)burnt houses of hindus ( our ancestor's property too has met with > > the same fate ).> > i can give many examples of this type of asymmetric secularism which > > has its roots in gandhian philosphy.> > > > many hindus have sofar opposed ways of narendra modi, but there is not > > a single muslim who has raised his voice against this asymmetric > > secularism. > > > > hindus are now in no mood to show magnonimity towards terrorists like > > soharabuddin or afzal guru hence they are in no mood to vote for those > > politicians who support these terrorists just because they happen to > > be muslims . > > > > if you visit tehelka or rediffmail websites you will find that > > majority of hindus are now wholeheartedly supporting modi.> > > > when communal riots break out, its an ordinary innocent muslim (and > > not tista settlewad or shabana azmi) who is at the receiving end. > > politicians & socalled seculars remain safe in their own houses.> > > > they must now introspect & try to understand the reasons behind > > modi's victory.> > > > vedavati> > > > > >> > > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 19:11:58 +0530> > > From: vivek at sarai.net> > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > > CC: vadhimoolam at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net; vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > > Vedavati,> > >> > > When I think of this event, I feel a great sadness. Narendra Modi's> > > victory will be the biggest ideological boon for those who hate us. He> > > will be the *cause* of many terrorist events over the next five years.> > > Yes.> > >> > > But let us think twice about the word "terrorist". It is a stupid and> > > inaccurate word. What we have here are two world views that hate each> > > other but are, not coincidentally, symmetrical in their design. It's> > > two opposing revenge-fantasies, in fact. Just think what the logical> > > end of that could be.> > >> > > Vivek> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Zainab Bawa wrote:> > > > Dear Vetri,I am sure Vedavati has a point to make when she says > > that Modi's> > > > victory is victory of the Hindus/victory to the Hindus. I think if > > Vedavati> > > > can explain her point, it will be of great help.> > > > Cheers,> > > > Zainab (gujju ben)> > > >> > > > On Dec 23, 2007 11:28 AM, Vetrivel Adhimoolam > > wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > >> Victory for Hindus? I can't help but bursting in to laughing! > > Joke of the> > > >> twenty first century. Interestingly, such jokes are being cracked > > in this> > > >> forum. Terms like sudo-secular is hardly going to hurt sensible> > > >> intellectuals.> > > >>> > > >> Vetri.> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> ----- Original Message -----> > > >> From: Vedavati Jogi> > > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net ; tapasrayx at gmail.com> > > >> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > >> Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > question.> > > >> its> > > >> a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo> > > >> seculars!> > > >>> > > >> you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > showing> > > >> the> > > >> world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > >>> > > >> vedavati> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> _________________________________________________________________> > > >> Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > >> http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > >> _________________________________________> > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > >> Critiques & Collaborations> > b> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > >> subscribe> > > >> in the subject header.> > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > >> _________________________________________> > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > >> Critiques & Collaborations> > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > >> subscribe in the subject header.> > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > >>> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! > > > _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 18:31:27 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 13:01:27 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <012f01c8467d$881234d0$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <322513.80144.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tara Prakash Your words were very clear and did not need any interpretation by me. Maybe it was an unfortunate turn of phrase and words by you. In any case, now, you have clarified that you did not mean that all Hindus are evil. You have again said some interesting things. For one: """""" Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him."""" If all the 'forces' named by you were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. AND you go on to say: """"" I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil.""""" Gujarat had a 65% voter turn-out. That is quite a high percentage for any part of the world. If a substantial part of this 65% vote was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (whether they won or lost), then those participating voters would be "evil" too. So, in the "Gujarat according to Tara Prakash" it was 'mainly' the 'evil' contesting and 'mainly' the 'evil' voting. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Dear Kshmendra. An intriguing interpretation of my message. I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did. I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus. Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected. I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives. It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 19:05:37 2007 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 13:35:37 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] March for Ghalib's house Message-ID: The Ghalib Memorial Movement Invites you To a March to demand a proper memorial for Ghalib On 26 October, Program- Assemble at 5 pm at Town Hall, Chandni Chowk. At 5.30 proceed to Ghalib's Haveli at Mir Kasim Jaan Gali for candle light procession. There will be speeches and Ghazals at the venue. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 19:22:28 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 13:52:28 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Secular Hypocrisy - B. RAMAN (In OUTLOOK) Message-ID: <802629.56537.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> What led to Modi being voted back to Power should be of great interest to everyone and especially those like Tara Prakash who think that Modi represents "evil". Simple dismissiveness will neither be educative nor fruitful. B. Raman (better known as an analyst fot security/strategic matter and geo-political analyses) presents one point of view (reproduced below) Kshmendra Kaul The Secular Hypocrisy It is Modi's rejection of the hypocrisy of the self-styled secularists which makes him stand apart as a Hindu leader with a difference in the eyes of his admirers, enabling them to say, "Say You Are A Hindu, Hold Your Head High". B. RAMAN "Maut ka Saudagar", 'Liar", "the Ugly Indian" etc etc etc. All the kind of epithets, the like of which till now used to come easily out of the mouth of President George Bush of the US and the pens of his Neo Conservative supporters. Mr Bush should be worried that he has now a growing number of competitors in the coining of demonising epithets in the community of the self-styled secularists of India . What epithets they did not use against Shri Narendra Modi for the last five years and particularly in the weeks before the recent elections to the Gujarat Legislative Assembly, in which the Modi-led Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) won a spectacular victory despite the best (or worst) efforts of these self-styled secularists to demonise him day in and day out! The pathological dislike--even hatred--that some of our journalists--particularly in the electronic media--have for Modi could be seen or sensed as one watched the TV coverage of the counting of votes on December 23, 2007. Initially, as it appeared that the BJP might not do well in the final tally, there was excitement among many of the TV anchors. They thought they had tasted blood. After an hour, the BJP candidates started racing ahead and it became clear the the Congress (I) was in for a drubbing. The disappointment on the faces of some of the anchors was to be seen to be believed. A five-star lady anchor could not help remarking: "Modi might be able to win the elections in Gujarat, but he still can't get a visa to go to the US and other Western countries." Some consolation! Instead of spending their time searching for abusive expressions in the dictionary and in their copy-book of such expressions, if these self-styled secularists had only visited the web sites, discussion groups and blogspots of members of the Hindu community not only in India, but also in other countries of the world--particularly in the US-- they would have noticed something, which might have given them cause for introspection. They would have noticed that Modi is becoming the icon of a growing number of Hindus not only in India, but also in the Hindu diaspora spread across the world. The support for him is not confined only to the Gujarati-speaking Hindus of the world. It is spread right across the Hindu spectrum--whatever be the language or ethnicity or place of origin of the Hindus concerned. They would have noticed that in the Hindu diaspora in the West, more young people admire Modi than grown-ups. Many of his young admirers in the US were born and brought up there and had the benefit of the best of secular education. In spite of this, there is a sense of pride in them that the Hindu community has at long last produced a leader of the calibre of Modi. What is it they see in him? His simple and austere living of the kind associated with the late Kamaraj of Tamil Nadu, but not seen in the leaders of today? His reputation as an incorruptible politician, the like of which is not found anywhere in India--not even in his own party? His style of development-oriented governance, which even his detractors on other grounds do not hesitate to praise? The fruits of his policy, which Gujarat and its people are already enjoying? His tough stance on terrorism? His lucid-thinking on matters concerning our national security? His defiance in the face of the greatest campaign of demonisation mounted against him, the like of which only Indira Gandhi had faced from her political opponents and sections of the media in the 1970s? All these are factors, which influence their favourable perception of him, and which have already been highlighted and analysed in the articles on his impressive election victory. But there is one factor, which is more important than these and which has not found mention in the analyses. That is, for large sections of the Hindus--young and old, even more among the young than among the old-- he gave them a sense of pride in their identity as Hindus. They feel that he removed from their minds long habits of defensiveness as Hindus carefully nurtured by the self-styled secularists. As if to proclaim one's Hindu identity and to assert one's rights as Hindus in their own homeland in which they are in a vast majority (80 per cent of the population) is to be communal, is to become an ugly Indian. For these self-styled secularists, a pretty Indian is a Hindu, who is all the time on the defensive, fights shy of proclaiming his Hindu personality and asserting his rights as a member of the majority community. These self-styled secularists would not address their sermons of secularism to the Islamic countries, where for a Muslim to convert a non-Muslim into Islam is an act blessed by Allah, but for a non-Muslim to convert a Muslim into his religion is a crime calling for the death penalty. For them, secularism is a virtue which a Hindu should practise towards others, but not others towards him. It is Modi's rejection of this hypocrisy of the self-styled secularists, which makes him stand apart as a Hindu leader with a difference in the eyes of his admirers. Bharathiyar, the Tamil poet who inspired millions of Tamil youth to join the independence struggle under Mahatma Gandhi, wrote: "Tamizhanenru Chollada, Talai Nimirndhu Nillada" "Say You Are a Tamil, Hold Your Head High." The growing legion of Modi's admirers in the Hindu community all over the world are saying: "Hindu Enru Chollada, Talai Nimirndu Nillada." "Say You Are A Hindu, Hold Your Head High." They are no longer prepared to be defensive in proclaiming their Hindu idenity, in asserting their rights as Hindus. They are secular in the genuine sense of the word, but for them secularism does not mean developing a guilt complex about being a Hindu and all the time conceding the rights of others. They do not accept the argument that a Hindu, who asserts his rights, ceases to be a secularist. --------------------------------- B. Raman is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20071224&fname=raman&sid=1 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From matters.art at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 19:57:36 2007 From: matters.art at gmail.com (mattersofart.com) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 14:27:36 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Merry Christmas ! from www.mattersofart.com. Our Dec 20th, 2007 upload can be viewed online now! Message-ID: <9bbea5780712222034h490207b2y215b719be49ad54b@mail.gmail.com> Merry Christmas ! from www.mattersofart.com. Our Dec 20th, 2007 upload can be viewed online now! Dear Friends, Log on to www.mattersofart.com for the latest news in Indian contemporary art. - Partha Chatterjee meets Timothy Human in New Delhi. - Manoj Vyloor in conversation with Ratheesh T. - A report on Mark Wallinger winning the Turner Prize 2007. - Artcurial auction in Paris ; an analysis. - Vrushali Dhage shares her experience at the RPG Camp, Mumbai - Exhibition reviews: Jitish Kallat, Kim Kiyoungae, Paresh Maity, Vinay K.D., - Yashwant Deshmukh and Yogesh Rawal. - Plus more ; exhibition reviews, and features and news … - Riyas Komu's latest show 'Mark Him' - Baiju Parthan : 'Liquid Memories + Rant'…a solo show in New Delhi, - Himmat Shah : solo show in Mumbai, - Saffronart Winter Auction results. And much more……. -- Anoop Kamath Editor-in-Chief www.mattersofart.com Mobile: 98111 68775 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071225/14a229c4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 20:59:17 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 15:29:17 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00db01c8470a$f3396890$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? Bharat mata ki jai. On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away? Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? Mehta? Maya Vati? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > my dear zainab, > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > mistakes. > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > station? > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > id you reciprocate? > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > babri structure once stood? > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > for reservations..! > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible. > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > hindu sentiments too. > > vedavati > > > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > are assumed to be aligned. > In peace, > Zainab (gujju ben) > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > victory! vedavati > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > Hi, > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > it is humanity that has won.. > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > Terrorist attacks... > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > becoming another Kashmir.. > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > Godhra would not have taken place... > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > from their month.... > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > win... > > Jai Hind, > > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 21:04:00 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 15:34:00 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election References: <322513.80144.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010101c8470b$a07825a0$6602a8c0@taraprakash> If this is how you understand the message, let this be the import of my message. I of course do not want to homogenize in any circumstance. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Your words were very clear and did not need any interpretation by me. Maybe it was an unfortunate turn of phrase and words by you. In any case, now, you have clarified that you did not mean that all Hindus are evil. You have again said some interesting things. For one: """""" Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him."""" If all the 'forces' named by you were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. AND you go on to say: """"" I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil.""""" Gujarat had a 65% voter turn-out. That is quite a high percentage for any part of the world. If a substantial part of this 65% vote was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (whether they won or lost), then those participating voters would be "evil" too. So, in the "Gujarat according to Tara Prakash" it was 'mainly' the 'evil' contesting and 'mainly' the 'evil' voting. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Dear Kshmendra. An intriguing interpretation of my message. I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did. I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus. Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected. I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives. It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? Itâ?Ts cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:05:05 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:35:05 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir -Motives and Magnitude-I Message-ID: <13df7c120712251934v3e52d9em8632f824c1f374b2@mail.gmail.com> On November 9,07 our learned friend Shudda had posted a series of four pieces titled" Annotations to the History of Iconoclasm in Kashmir".This was a response to my posting on various aspects of Kashmir's chequered past. At the outset I must admire that Shudda has really worked hard to read all the books/texts that I had referred to in my postings.I must also make it clear that at point in time did I "admonish" Shudda.If that's how it has come across to the forum or Shudda I apologize for the same. I only suggested Shudda to read the texts to know the truth. Partly due to lack of time on my hands and party due to the futility of postings I had so far restrained myself from posting a reply or even critically evaluating what our dear friend had written. God be praised he showered us with some Holidays(Eid and Christmas) and I got some time to critically and dispassionately examine what Shudda has written or the conclusions he has drawn on the basis of his understanding of the various texts which are being referred to. Before I begin to put forth my perspective on Shudda's observations I have a request to make to Shudda.In the course of our discussions we should stay clear of getting personal and using words like "Kshmendra haunts this forum" or "Rashneek has desires to be acknowledged as a poet" or any such phraseology. What desires I or anyone else is no-ones business here unless I don't prey on someone's desires. We are not politicians and our differences are purely from an ideological perspective. We can discuss without getting personal. Shudda's Deepawali wish has come true.There is less noise here….more light, well I don't know. *Part-I* Let us first try and look at what Shudda is trying to drive home. 1.Barbarianism,iconoclasm and subjugation of the masses (especially those not belonging to their religion) hasn't been exclusive to Muslim Kings alone.To support his arguments Shudda has given various examples from Kalhana's Rajatarangni as well as selective self-suiting references from Jia Lal Kilam's"History of Kashmiri Pandits".He however for various reasons chooses to ignore Jonaraja,Srivara,Shuka and Prajabhatta as works of lesser importance and hence not credible pieces of historiography.He makes no reference to Baharistan-i-Shahi.He also discards Advaitavadini Kaul's "Buddhist Savants of Kashmir" as irrelevant for this discussion.He refers to Romila Thapar , AL Basham and Marxist historian Harbans Mukhiya. 2.Rashneek Kher has painted a picture of Kashmiri Pandits as eternal victims which according to Shudda is far from correct. 3.He indulges in a little bit of mud slinging or pun at everyone in this forum who do not fall in line with the general ideology of the forum, but that aspect I will stay clear of since I have already requested Shudda's co-operation for keeping this impersonal. 4.He brings rather drags Kshmemdra-the poet into the discussion. Let us also summarize what he advertently or inadvertently chose to ignore or has missed: 1.Motives for Iconoclasm and iconoclasm,selective persecution on the basis of faith or ideology & its frequency in the pre-Islamic vis-a-vis Islamic rule in Kashmir. 2.Kashmir's contribution to Literarture, History, Culture,Various schools of Philosophy, Music,Fine Arts,Mahayana Buddhism, Shaivism, before the advent of Islam and the fact that not even one great scholar or new thought came into existence post 14th Century.Lal Ded probably being the last "new thought" on Kashmir's firmament.This also needs to be discussed for it describes how an open society promotes scholarship, culture, art and literature while a dark closed society throttles it. I shall now present my hypothesis as follows' "Acts of Iconoclasm have taken place both in pre-Islamic(approx 3400 years) as well as Islamic period, however the magnitude of iconoclasm in the 400 odd years of Islamic rule of Kashmir has been massive and pointed at a certain faith in order to impose Islam and bring down idolatory. Iconoclasm in pre-Islamic period has been extremely sparse (only 4 kings resorting to Iconoclasm) and had happened for reasons of greed, wickedness, corruption due to absolute power that the monarchs had and in some cases under the influence of the company the king had as was in the case of Harsha'the Turuska Iconoclast". There is no credible historical evidence to suggest that persecution of subjects (in the pre-Islamic period) based on their faith had taken place while there is a whole lot of historical evidence to suggest that persecution(in the Salatin era) of non-muslim subjects happened at a large scale which resulted in 6 exoduses of the Hindu community from the valley.There is evidence also to support that whichever of the two Islamic sects(Shia's or Sunni's)was in power subjugated the other but meted out special torment on non-muslim subjects" Before I proceed to prove my hypothesis,I take this to explain to the forum(or the ones who would like to read this) some issues which Shudda had raised both with reference to sources of Kashmir's history as well as how I (Rashneek Kher) viewed it. *1.Kshmendra and his credentials* I had made no reference to Kshmendra as a source of History.It seems to me that Shudda could not resist the temptation of raking up Kshmendra-the poet to have some fun poked at me ,Pawan Durani and Kshmendra Kaul. Shudda ridicules Kshmendra the Kashmiri poet by making repeated references to Kalhana mentioning that not even one of his list of kings is free of error.Now Shudda doesn't become a great detective by exposing Kshmendra the poet's errors in writing history.I am sure my learned friend knows that no one considers Kshemndra a source of history.Hence this rather irrelevant reference to Kshmendra was but unwanted and could only have been raised to divert the course of discussion or raise some muck. Notwithstanding Kshmendra being a poor historian, I would like the forum (or at-least the one's who care to read this)to know that Kshmendra occupies a place of pride in History of Sanskrit Literature. This is what Dr.Sunil Chandra Ray has to say about Kshmendra.My request once again to Shudda that one should stay clear of muck racking about a literary genius.In such cases ignorance is not bliss and intentional distortion does no one any good. *Ksemendra was a versatile genius. He wrote poems, narratives, didactic and satiric sketches and treatises on rhetoric and prosody. His Bharatamanjari, Ramayanamanjari, Brhathathamanjari, Padyakadambari (lost) and Avadanakalpalata are, respectively, the abstracts of the two great epics, the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, Gunadhya Brhatkatha, Bana's Kadambari and the Buddhist Avadanas. All these were written in verse. Among his other works, known only by name, are Sasivamsamahakavya, Amrtarangakavya, Avasarasara, Muktavali Vatsyayana-sutra-sara, Lalitaratnamale, Kanakajanaki, Nrpavali, Lavanyavati and Pavanapancasika. His known and printed works include Nitikalpataru, Carucarya, Desopadesa, Narmamala, Nitilata, Vinayavalli. Darpadalana, Sevyasevakopadesa, Munimatamimamsa, Caturvarga-Samgraha Aucityavicaracarca Kavikanthabharana and Dasavataracarita.* *In Samayamatrka, one of his most original poems, he describes the arts and trickeries of the harlot. The merit of the work lies in its vivid description of droll life painted with great sharpness of phrasing and characterisation. His Sevyasevakopadesa contains shrewd reflection on the relation between master and servant. The Carucarya, a century of moral aphorisms, gives a pleasing picture of virtue's ways of pleasantness in contemporary **Kashmir**. The Caturvargasamgraha deals with the four objects of human life, dharma, arthal, **kama** and moksa. The Darpadalana is a denunciatory harrangue against human pride which is said to have sprung from birth, wealth, learning, beauty, velour, charity and asceticism. They are dealt separately in each chapter with illustrations on each type of boaster. The Kalavilasa is a satirical poem of ten cantos in which Muladeva, the legendary master of trickery instructs his young disciple in the arts of roguery. Ksemendra's Desopadesa and Narmamala, like Kalavilasa, also represent his satirical proclivity of mind. In the former, he dilates upon the daily life of different depraved sections of people inhabiting the valley such as cheat, miser, prostitute, bawd, ostentatious voluptuary students of Gauda, old man marrying young wives, degraded Saiva Guru, the ignorant grammarians etc. The Narmamala is a sharp satire on the misrule and oppression of the Kayasthas, before the time of Ananta. In his Aucityavicaracarca, Ksemendra tries to propound that propriety or aucitya is the soul of poetry and the figures of speech, if they overstep their proper limits, hurt the rasa. In the Kavikanthabharana he discuses with the subjects of kavitvaprapti, siksa, camatkrti, gunadosabodha and paricayaprapti. Ksemendra's Dasavataracarita gives in regular Kavya style, an account of the ten incarnations of Visnu, viz., Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Nrsimha, Vamana, Parasurama, Rama, Krsna, Buddha and Karkya, which is nothing but an abstraction of the Puranic stories. * This is what chroniclers of Kashmir have to say about him *Dr. Keith called him a polymath while Dr. Stein' has appended the epithet polymister with his name*. This tribute goes a long way in establishing that he did not confine himself to a single form of literary expression but tried his pen over many other forms with equal force and effect. However, in all humility he calls himself 'Vyasadasa' the servant of Vyasa of Mahabharata fame. *2.Rinchen's conversion and Shudda's understanding of that important episode of **Kashmir**'s history* * * Due the importance of Rinchana's conversion as a significant historical event in Kashmir's history I will deal with it right in the beginning. Shudda observes *With the rise of the Salatins (the reign of Rinchen, a Tibetan Buddhist who converted to Islam because the Brahmin orthodoxy disdained him, cannot really be considered the reign of a Muslim king in its entirety and may be seen only as a prologue, or as an interregnum prior to the real decline of Hindu power in Kashmir, primarily as a result of palace intrigues.) It is necessary to remember that **Kashmir** is a part of **South Asia** where the rise of Islam did not accompany a military invasion, but occurred largely due to the example set by missionaries and religious divines.* * * *Let us look at truth now.* * * This is what Baharistan-i-Shahi tells us about Rinchana's conversion. *Rinchan's conversion* *During the early stages of his career, Rinchan showed no inclination towards any of the existing religions.[31] It was in the fitness of things that he embraced one of these religions and vigorously prayed to God the Merciful. At this time only a handful of people in **Kashmir** had embraced Islam. Most of the people were either infidels or dissemblers. But when Rinchan thought of embracing a religion and associating himself with a community he made enquiries about the principles and laws of their religion from the savants among the infidels and the learned men of the times. They beseeched him to join their fold.[32] The Muslims also put before him the principles and teachings of the Islamic faith and invited him to embrace their religion. But owing to serious differences between these two religions and the disagreement [prevailing] among the two religious groups, he was not able to reach any decision. Each community considered its religion the true one and each group induced him to embrace its religion. He was in a fix because of the serious differences and glaring contradictions in the views of these communities. Their heated discussions and discourses led him to no satisfactory conclusion. However, blessed as he was with a dispensation for justice, for 'God helps those who help themselves,' he found the right path. He firmly decided that he would embrace the religion of the first man he would meet in the street after coming out of his house the next morning. He also resolved to join the community to which that man belonged. Next morning he came out of his house. The rays of the sun of divine guidance, bringing every object from darkness to light, liberated him from the darkness of ignorance and disbelief; for all of a sudden, in the neighbourhood of his mansion he saw a dervish offering namaz (the Muslim way of praying), with full devotion. He went towards him. When the dervish had finished his prayer, Rinchan held him by his hand and brought him to his house. Then he called in an interpreter who knew their languages. He asked the dervish his name and then about his religion and the sect he belonged to. The dervish told him that his name was Bulbul Qalandar, that his religion was Islam[33] and that his community was that of Muslims. He disclosed to him that he was a member of the sect of Shah Ne'matullah Wali. He then mentioned to him some of the miracles performed by the Prophet, the virtues and superior qualities of 'Ali, the Imam, and lastly, the extraordinary feats of spirituality performed by Shah Ne'matullah Wali. His (Rinchan's) heart had previously been blackened by the beliefs of a false community.[34] Now he subjected himself to the teachings of the religion of Mustafa (Prophet), and the right principles of the truthful path of Murtaza (Ali), and embraced Islamic religion with sincerity and conviction.[35] He gave up once for all the false and corrupt religions. * Baharistan-i-Shahi clearly says that both religions tried to invite him to its fold. Abul-Fazal in Ain-e-Akbari mentions that Rinchana accepted Islam because of Shah-Mir.Refer Vol II page 386. While it is true that Kashmir did not have armies of Arabs or Persians (although Zulchu did march in with his armies in Kashmir but the purpose was to loot and not conquer land or convert its inhabitants. I am saying this despite the fact that he took thousands of Kashmiri men and women as slaves all of whom perished in a snow storm at Devasar in Anantanag) marching into its land but as far as conversions due to examples set by missionaries and Dervishes are concerned, it is mere hogwash to a great extent. How Islam was spread is clear from the Part-II of my paper. You will see how Hindus were converted by brute force and how atrocities were inflicted by the Osama's of those days. * * Contd….. 3.Let us now move to what else Shudda has to say/comment/observe I will try and give my perspective point by point to Shudda's observations Shudda writes*" In writing back, I was trying to critique the role of the eternal and* *timeless victim that Rashneek Kher had ascribed to the figure of the* *Kashmiri Pandit by selectively quoting passages that speak of Muslim* *iconoclasm and persecution, while neglecting to speak either of Muslim* *patronage (as in the case of Zain Al Abedin, whom Rashneek Kher* *acknowledged only after I pointed out the example of Zain al Abedin) of* *Hindu religious practices, or of instances where non Muslim rulers in* *Kashmir have enacted policies of iconoclasm, temple destruction and* *persecution - of Buddhists and others.* * * Shudda observes that it is he who induced me into accepting that Zainul-Abidin was a just or a tolerant king. Now here is an article I wrote for Merinews on Aug 26,2007.which is many days before this discussion happened on SARAI. http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp;jsessionid=C16DF248CD59DBB4A953073757EC775E?articleID=126078 *I observe * *"However the rule of Sultan Zaina-ul-abidin (Badshah) was a period of glory and prosperity for **Kashmir**. He rebuilt a lot of temples and appointed scholars to re-write Hindu scriptures and texts. A lot of Sanskrit texts were translated to Persian and vice-versa. Peace and great scholars returned to **Kashmir**. Ancient rituals and the customs of the **land** of **Kashmir ** were revived. Islam and Hinduism lived in harmony alongside. In terms of Zain-ul-abidin's achievements his reign can be compared to the reign of the greatest ruler of **Kashmir**, Lalit-Aditya-Muktapida. His reign lasted fifty-two years. With the sad demise of the great leader of men and the torchbearer of secularism, forces of fanaticism came to the fore again."* Obviously "my change of heart about Zainul-abidin" did not happen at the prodding of my dear friend.To make everyone believe that I am an unreasonable bigot or someone who paints all the Muslims with the same brush doesn't seem to have succeeded for I admire Zainul –abidin and as be clearly seen I have compared his reign with the greatest kings of Kashmir.Also please mark my choice of words to describe the great monarch.This is despite the fact that Zainal-abidin did not abolish Jaziya but only lessened it. The very imposition of Jazziya itself is a mark of sickness irrespective of which religion,creed or caste imposes it.It is not just the monetary taxation but the social stigma associated with being a non-muslim in a Muslim State much like being a Shudra in a caste ridden society.It was eventually Akbar who abolished Jazziya for Pandits only to be re-imposed by his grandson Aurangzeb.That is a different story for another time. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:08:13 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:38:13 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-II Message-ID: <13df7c120712251937i86e108ma7f6aca8fbcbf9d@mail.gmail.com> *PART-II* MOTIVES BEHIND ICONOCLASM-THE MUSLIM KINGS Shudda observes *It is no one's case, least of all mine, to state that iconoclasm by* *Muslim Kings in the sultanate period in **Kashmir** did not occur. It did,* *and my contention is that it is incorrect and biased to say that* *iconoclasm occurred only at the behest of Muslim rulers in **Kashmir**.* May I ask Shudda to show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm happened only in the times of Muslim Rulers.Can he be kind to show me that posting where I have said so.As far as I remember I haven't anywhere mentioned that it was Muslim Rulers alone who were Iconoclasts.I would still be ready to be corrected if I said so anywhere. What I however do re-affirm that while a miniscule percentage of Hindu,Hun(like Mihirkula),Buddhists (like Jaluka) rulers did destroy temples and some destroyed Buddhist Viharas too(of course not Shankarvarman)the reasons for the same were not religious expansion or bigotry.Unlike Muslim kings they did not think that they have a holy aim of converting Darul-Harb to Darul-Islam.The aim was not to subjugate or make people change their religion or faith but anything else.Most of the Muslim rulers destroyed temples thinking that they were doing a righteous act and were promoting Shariah by eliminating infidels(Kafir's).Many thought that they were emulating the Prophet(SAW) little realizing the difference that what Prophet Mohammed (PBH) had done while destroying the idols at Kabba(a pagan place of worship then and a mosque now) was destroying idolatory and not idols.Iconoclasm in Kashmir was endorsed by the Amirs of the day(whether general Muslims supported it or not can be a matter of debate much like whether majority Hindus supported or condemned the barbaric destruction of Babri Mosque or whether Iconoclasm, in present day Kashmir has the mandate of the Muslims of the Valley or not).There are examples galore to prove this point.In order to put this in perspective I am giving some references. *From Bahristan-i-Shahi* * "Sultan Shihabu'd-Din addressed himself to such works as would help him get peace in the world hereafter. He arranged a tomb and a burial place for himself to be used after his death. Towards the fag end of his life, he was infused with a zeal for demolishing idol-houses and destroying the temples and idols of the infidels. He destroyed the massive temple at Beejeh Belareh [31] (Bijbehara). He had designs to destroy all the temples and put an end to the entire community of the infidels.[32] " "Again it needs to be recorded that for some of the time which the holy Amir spent in **Kashmir** he lived in a sarai at 'Alau'd-Din Pora. At the site where his khanqah was built, there existed a small temple which was demolished and converted into an estrade on which he offered namaz (prayer) five times a day and recited portions of the Qur'an morning and evening. Sultan Qutbu'd-Din occasionally attended these congregational prayers." " [It may be recorded] that the temples of idol-worshippers, which had been destroyed and razed to the ground by the religious-minded and justice-loving Sultan Sikandar- God bless his grave and bless him-had been rebuilt and rehabilitated by Zainu'l 'Abidin. He had permitted idolators and polytheists to revive the practices of infidelity and they had propagated heresy (kufr) and false religion (din-i batil). With the support of some more kings,[96] the infidels had flourished day after day. But with the support and authority of Malik Musa Raina, Amir Shamsu'd-Din Muhammad undertook a wholesale destruction of all those idol-houses [97] as well as the total ruination of the very foundation of infidelity and disbelief. On the site of every idol-house he destroyed, he ordered the construction of a mosque for offering prayers after the Islamic manner." The idolatory and heresy which had existed prior to his coming to this place were effectively replaced by his preaching and propagation of Islamic laws and practices. He brought honour to all the infidels and heretics (zandiqa) of **Kashmir** by admitting them to the Islamic faith and bestowed upon them many kinds of rewards and benefactions. It is publicly known as well as emphatically related that during his life-time, with the virtuous efforts and elaborate arrangements made by the fortunate Malik Musa Raina, twenty-four thousand families of staunch infidels and stubborn heretics were ennobled by being converted to the Islamic faith. [99] It is difficult to compute the number of people who had hitherto indulged in corrupt practices of a wrong (false) faith and dissent and were put on the right track under the proper guidance of Mir Shamsu'd-Din 'Iraqi .[99] * *In fact the transmitter of (God's) grace (Mir Shams 'Iraqi) conferred favours upon the righteous Malik Musa Raina and gave him blessings which enabled him to fulfill that cherished task. Indeed, fortunate is one who has been able to become the recipient of such special consideration at the hands of a highly venerable and elderly person like him (Amir Shamsu'd-Din). After Sultan Sikandar-God's peace be upon him-no one among the Muslims who wielded authority over this country rendered as much service to Islam by its propagation and advancement as Malik Musa Raina did. Nobody was able to make as organized an effort as he did towards the advancement and furtherence of the Muhammadan religion. * Please look at how the kings viewed their acts.One thought he would get peace by destroying temples.Sultan Sikander has been defined as religious minded and justice loving by the historians of the day while in no case has Kalhana supported or even condoned breaking of religious places.He heaped scorn on kings who resorted to this. Now that's the difference. While Muslim Kings, their Amirs and even most Muslim Historians thought that the King was indulging in act of religious righteousness, kings belonging to other faiths had no such grandiose megalomania of reaching heaven (where houris would await them) by resorting to such acts. It makes an important reading into the mindset of the Muslim rulers.They clearly saw a holy purpose of converting "people of false faiths" like Shudda and me to the only "true religion".In their understanding of Islam they were doing great acts and their Amirs and most Historians of that period(especially the foreign historians who came with them ) supported this sickness unlike Kalhana who outrightly condemned these acts. Read the Last line of my reference from the Bharistan-i-Shahi *Nobody was able to make as organized an effort as he did towards the advancement and furtherence of the Muhammadan religion. * Here we are.The purpose is clear "Advancement and Furtherance of the Mohammedan Religion". *Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami* * * *For details of forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam and their massacre in case they refused to be converted, see Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami; pp. 178-80. One significant detail is that three kharwars (one kharwar is approximately equal to eighty kilograms) of Hindu ceremonial thread (zunnar) were burnt by Sultan Sikandar. (Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami, Pir Ghulam Hasan, Vol II, RPD,* Srinagar 1954.)* * * *Other Sources for Sikander Butshikan alone* *This is what historians (mostly Muslims) have to say. * *"He [Sikandar] prohibited all types of frugal games. Nobody dared to commit acts which were prohibited by the Sharia. The Sultăn was constantly busy in annihilating the infidels and destroyed most of the temples..." (Haidar Malik Chădurăh: Tărîkh-i-Kashmîr; edited and translated into English by Razia Bano, Delhi, 1991, p. 55.) * *"[He] strove to destroy the idols and temples of the infidels. He got demolished the famous **temple** of **Mahădeva** at Bahrăre. The temple was dug out of its foundation and the hole (that remained) reached the water table. Another temple at Jagdar was also demolished… Răjă Alamădat had got a big temple constructed at Sinpur. (...) The temple was destroyed [by Sikandar]." (Khwăjah Nizămu'd- Dîn Ahmad bin Muhammad Muqîm al-Harbî: Tabqăt-i-Akbarî translated by B. De, Calcutta, 1973)* * "Sikander burnt all books the same way as fire burns hay". "All the scintillating works faced destruction in the same manner that lotus flowers face with the onset of frosty winter." (Srivara, Zaina Ra-jtarangini). This I am giving more for its poetic value rather than what it says.* Also please do pay attention to the following *"At the behest of Shams Iraqi, Musa Raina had ordered 1500 to 2000 infidels to be brought to his door-steps every day by his followers. They would remove their sacred threads, administer Kalima to them, circumcise them and thrust lumps of beef into their mouths,'' mentions Tohfatul Ahbab.* *Role of so-called Sufis*: While no one can deny the fact that Kashmir was greatly influenced by Sufism and has produced some great Sufi saints and mystic poets(both Hindus and Muslims),we must stay clear of attaching a Sufi tag to every Muslim Godman.On one hand we have the great Sufi Tradition of Nund Rishi,Shams Faqir,Ahmed batwario,Rahim Saab,Swoch Kral,Prakesh Ram Kurigami,Govind Kaul,Ahmed Dar, on the other we have self styled god-men like Bul Bul Shah and Syed Ali Hamdani on whom this label of Sufi is stuck to make them more palatable to the larger masses.Let us understand this in the context of Shudda's assertions. Shudda says *It is necessary to remember that **Kashmir** is a part of **South Asia** where the rise of Islam did not accompany a military invasion, but occurred largely due to the example set by missionaries and religious divines.* * * My comments Syed Ali Hamdani or Shah-I Hamdan as he is popularly called by Kashmiri Muslims is widely regarded as the man responsible for conversion of Kashmiris to Islam.Shudda has agreed in our previous discussions on this very forum that the Shah-i-Hamadan mosque was built after demolishing a Kali temple(and there are enough historical records to prove that, apart from the fact that to this day Pandits perform prayers alongside the converted structure).Now that itself should have restrained a scholar of Shudda's repute to make the statement that he has made above. That not-withstanding I would like to inform the forum that before Shah-i-Hamadan left Kashmir he ordered the king to impose the following sanctions on Non-Muslims.I am enumerating them for your reading please. 1) The Hindus will not construct any new temples under the rule of Muslims. 2) They will not repair old temples fallen into ruins. 3) They will respect Muslims. 4) They will not dress like Muslims. 5) They will not ride a horse with saddle & bridle 6) They will not put on a ring. 7) They will not carry swords or bows & arrows. 8) They will not adopt Muslim names 9) They will not harbour spies or act as spies 10) If any relation of their's wants to embrace Islam, they will not oppose it. 11) If a Muslim comes to attend a Hindu meeting he will be respectfully received. 12) They will receive Muslim travelers into their houses & provide them hospitality. 13) They will not prevent Muslim travelers from staying in their temples & shrines. 14) They will not mourn their dead loudly. 15) They will not buy Muslim slaves. 16) They will not build houses in neighbourhood of Muslims. 17) They will not sell intoxicating drinks. 18) They will not carry their dead near the grave-yards of Muslims. 19) They will not openly practice their customs & usages among Muslims. 20) They will not give up their traditional dress so that they can be distinguished from Muslims. *In the end the fiat in the form of an advice dictated if any Hindu dares to flout any of conditions, he should be first looted and then possession of his body is halal(Zakhiratul- Muluk).* (Source:Dr.Qayoom Rafiquee's doctoral thesis titled"Sufism in Kashmir") In case this is not enough proof for anybody's flight of fancy which makes him believe that Islam spread peacefully here are some examples from the same thesis.If this isn't persecution in the name of religion then I wonder what is. Writes Dr. Qayoom Rafiquee, "Mir Mohammad was not ready to give the status of Zimmis to the Hindus of Kashmir and treated them as kafirs who were not obedient to Islam, but were at war with it". Sufism in Kashmir, P-101 Again to quote Rafiquee, 'the medieval Muslim sources inform us emphatically that infidelity was uprooted from Kashmir through the influence of Mir Mohammad'. Sufism in Kashmir 101. *And sadly some of us have the cheek to say Islam in **Kashmir** spread through divinity and personal example of missionaries.* This should put to rest any imaginative thought processes of Islam spreading in Kashmir through "divine incarnation of Dervishes and examples set by missionaries".If someone still wants to stick to his point then I hope the same divinity that dawned on our forefathers in Kashmir dawns on him too. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:09:08 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:39:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III Message-ID: <13df7c120712251939nac0317ao2a65316971ebcdb4@mail.gmail.com> PART-III I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the Marxist historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution and Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not just Kashmir alone. It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed as a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone their acts. Harsha"The Iconoclast" Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the context of the above discussion. My learned friend writes *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of sixty four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"* This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises a question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the beginning of second series of his essay he says *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval history in **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing embodies a singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. He describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers without favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts to maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration of reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the seasons, of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - all furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic and the historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit of the readers *He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* * * *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm and Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone* To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt what my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious leanings.. * * *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes how unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya Muktapida, Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw development and prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel despots.Till the advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less indigenous rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the advent of Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting thread among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their subjects." * * * *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims* Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of their bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be ,we will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like the forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an American Student. * * *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate** **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. * * * *http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm* *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her Prof. Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate the hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed temples in neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but that Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. * *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline published by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. Eaton did publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the destruction and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In his article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's and his colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the difference in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the temples of other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally devastating attacks from Muslim armies.* *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had heard about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most scholars consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I pointed out that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only looting the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for ideological reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, the intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in Rajasthan and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the neighboring kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered to be endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own kingdom, the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This type of vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a trophy not as an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, the king who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the captured statue in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious structure in his kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even grander temple and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have similarities, the motivations were very different. * *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the exception to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not impressed by the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples offered to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a guilty as Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told suggested to several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that tact about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in **India**really believes them. The evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of temples and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples by the various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist historians in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of Hindu-driven carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to uncover any real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. * Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist Keonraad Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* * *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:*** *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila Thapar. Of Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), I have no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper. Meanwhile, I have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a clinching testimony.* *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111) has been called the "Nero of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" (S.B. Bhattacherje: Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi 1995, p.A-20). He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most Hindu and Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he had created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general data on 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a typical Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also did, viz. to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, **Kashmir** had already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and Turkish troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.* *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he still ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the Islamic ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his centurions" (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which targeted Hindu temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than temples. All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, two of them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." (7:1095)* *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing a separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a somewhat peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic tradition of iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and looted Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his employ, he behaved like a Muslim.* *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites as proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read it at all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is making. Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's testimony in the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or she simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, she has been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's testimony even while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. * *A.L.Basham* Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics" * Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil counseller Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting down the images of the gods" It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due to various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did. Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by saying that the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's explanation that King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or outsiders) who in this case happened to be Muslims. Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while the contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's Rajatarangni Book 7 verse 1095 *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." * Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places Kalhana uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word Turuska in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni. Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard Elst,the reasons for which are the following. 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud of Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible sources of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that Islamic rule was still some two centuries away. 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's source of his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shudda himself concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's argument,albeit speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic identification of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle with the complexity of his reign that I have referred to above" Irrespective of the arguments set forth by Romila Thapar,Basham,Elst and others it is conclusively proved in case of Harsha that although he did destroy temples and Viharas both but the reason was not to promote Hinduism or to subjugate Buddhism.What however can be argued is that he may be doing at the behest of whom Kalhana calls Turks(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) what later Muslim kings did.ie.Try and Destroy the very root of Hinduism in Sarada Desha. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:12:38 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:42:38 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-IV Message-ID: <13df7c120712251942v25581e10u4a4b589ff63932bd@mail.gmail.com> *Part-IV* *Shudda's Rajatarngani* Let us now move to the third part of Shudda's observations where he has written in detail about the kings who burnt temples,destroyed Viharas etc etc.Although I have read both R.S.Pandit's translation of Rajatarangni as well as Aurel Stein's translation( complete with notes and his travels to many places mentioned by Kalhan)the notes that I had made on both (as a Class XI student,I and my father traveled to a lot of places which Kalhana mentions in Rajatarngni) were burnt when my house was razed to ground by terrorists(sorry divinely ordained dervishes and missionaries) on the Janam Asthami of 1990.I will refer to Aurel Stein's translation and footnotes since in my opinion he presents a more detailed account of Kalhana's Kashmir. Another reason for me to refer to his translation and footnotes is that R S Pandit was no historian of any repute, whatsoever, while Aurel Stein's extensive work leaves little to imagination. Thus wherever he could he has closed loops so that half-baked historians don't go on an imagination hunt and derive their own meanings. (I apologize for not being in a position to use diacritical marks.) Let us look at each king mentioned by Shudda 1.*Jalauka:*This King finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 108-152.,Vol 1,page 26.Aurel Stein's translation. While it is true that he did destroy one Vihara(and not many Buddhist Shrines as Shudda imagines and later tells us) the reason for the same as mentioned in Rajatatarangni is that he was disturbed while sleeping because of the music emanating from the said Vihara.It clearly is no religious zeal that drove him to do this act. This can be easily understood the following(Tarnaga 1,140-144)page 26 Book 1,Volume 1, Aurel Stein's Translation: "When you had lately been kept from sleep by the noise of the music of the Vihara,you had at the instigation of wicked persons caused in your anger the destruction of the Vihara.The excited Bauddhas thought of me and sent me forth to kill you.But then the Boddhisattvas called me and gave me the following directions:'That great king is a Sakya(Mahasakya).You cannot hurt him;but in his presence,O good one,you will obtain liberation from darkness(sin).In our name you shall exhort him who has been ed into guilt by wicked people,to give up his hoarded gold and to build a Vihara.If he does so,no misfortune shall befall him in consequence of the destruction of the Vihara,and atonement shall thus be made for him and his instigators." The king repents for the sin he committed in a fit of anger and later builds the Vihara and names it after the divine sorceress.The same can be easily verified by the following Taranga 1,147,page 26,Vol 1 of Aurel Stein's translation "Thereupon the king built the Krtyasarama Vihara,and worshipped there the divine sorceress who had been freed from darkness" So Shudda's assertion that"Jalauka's destruction of Buddhist shrines" is but an incorrect statement.There is only one Vihara in question and not many shrines.Probably in order to prove his point my friend is very liberal in the use of alphabet (s).One may also be tempted to ask if Jalauka was himself a Buddhist,he being the son of Ashoka. Notwithstanding his religious leanings we learn from Rajatarangi that he did destroy 1(one) Vihara for which he later repented by building a Vihara. Now here I ask Shudda to name one Muslim ruler in Kashmir who repented for his acts of Iconoclasm and re-build temples. 2.*Abhimanyu-1.*This king finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 174-184,Vol1 page 31-33,Aurel Stein translation. We straight away go to the verses which Shudda mentions as his proof of Iconoclasm and religious persecution by Abhimanyu 1.These are 177-181. I don't even deem it worth discussing what can be best be defined as Shudda's figament of imagination.Yet for purpose of clarity I discuss it.Theimportant verse is verse 181 of Taranga 1,page 33,Vol1 of Stein's translation.This is how it reads "At that time there manifested itself some miraculous power through which the Brahmans,who offered oblations and sacrifices,escaped destruction while the Bauddhas perished" >From this verse our friend presumes that Brahmans killed or persecuted Buddhists.He supports this what R.S.Pandit in his footnote to the verses 180-181 says"this (snow that killed the Buddhists) is PERHAPS a poetic description of the persecution of Buddhists during this era." One is tempted to ask what is the source on the basis of which R.S.Panditpresumes his PERHAPS. R.S.Pandit being a person of shallow knowledge of history can be pardoned for his ignorance but when someone like our own Shudda (who I greatly regard for his scholarship) uses this as an example of Iconoclasm or Persecution,it is but sad.We could have agreed with RS Pandit,if anything in the Rajatarangi had mentioned Abhimanyu 1, as an unjust ,licentious,communal or ill mannered moanarch.But that is not the case. Not only this,while Aurel Stein makes a detailed foot note of the verse 180,he doesn't even bother to write a word about 181 since to any intelligent reader it is more than self explanatory. 3.*Nara**:This king finds mention in Taranaga 1,verses 197-275,Vol 1,page 34-41 of Aurel Stein's translation.* Shudda's explanation of the verses 199-200 of Taranaga 1,are more or less correct.While Stein mentions the woman in question as the king's wife R.S.Pandit mentions her as king's lover.Whichever be the case the Buddhist monk does seduce the king's wife through magical powers. Enraged by this the king does destroy thousands of Viharas.The reason for destruction of Viharas is clear and needs no explanation.Though an unpardonable sin,clearly religious zeal or conversion or selective persecution is certainly not mentioned. 4.*Mihirkula:This king finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 289-324,page 43-48,Vol1,Aurel Stein's translation.* Shudda writes"Here we enter the terrain of strictly historical account of iconoclasm in Kashmir" He refers to verses 289-293 of Taranga 1.Now let see what is said in them I re-write Stein's translation for the benefit of the readers and for an easy explanation later. 289-293"Then his son Mihirkula,a man of violent acts and resembling Kala(Death),ruled in the land which was overrun by hordes of Mlecchas.In him the northern region brought forth ,as it were,another god of death,bent in rivalry to surpass the southern region which has the Yama(as its guardian).The people knew his approach by noticing the vultures,crows and other birds which were flying ahead eager to feed on those who were being slain within his armies' reach.This royal Vitala was day and night surrounded by thousands of murdered human beings,even in his pleasure-houses.This terrible enemy of mankind had no pity for children,no compassion for women,no respect for the aged." >From the above I could not find out anything that would indicate to me that he killed Buddhists alone or burnt their Viharas only and not Hindu Temples.If anyone else can,I would be more than willing to be corrected.However as Shudda mentions that R.S.Pandit in his foot note says"Huns carried out terrible persecution of Buddhism,destroying Stupas and Viharas and massacring the monks.Although the Huns were hostile to Buddhism,they protected Saivism and their kings built temples in honour of Shiva" *I started looking at the other verses that Kalhana writes for this cruel king.Surprisingly the word Buddhist or Vihara or Stupa simply does not find a mention in the verses which have described Mihirkula's despotic regime.Sothe question of him destroying them simply does not arise unless in someone's imagination.It is possible that other Huna rulers might have done what RS Pandit writes as his footnote.Even that seems improbable,because if any such references would have been there Shudda would have found them. * As far as building temples Kalahana says in Verse 306,Taranga 1 Vol1,page 46 the following"Thus,evil-minded as he was,he founded at Srinagari the (shrine of Shiva) Mihireshwara,and in Holada the large town called Mihirpura" *I hope building a Shiva temple is no proof of Iconoclasm.* As for giving Agraharas,Shudda himself acknowledges that he gave it to Brahmanas born in the Gandhara country at Vijayeshwara.What is notable is the scorn that Kalhana heaps on these foreign Brahmanas for accepting Agraharas from this wretched king.This is how Stein translates this verse. Ref verse 307,Taranga 1,Vol1,page 46, Brahmanas from Gandhara,resembling himself in their habits and verily themselves the lowest of the twice-born,accepted Agraharas from him" *So Shudda's assertion"Here we enter the terrain of strictly historical account of iconoclasm in **Kashmir**" falls flat for want of credible historical proof.* 5.*Jayapida:This king finds mention in Taranga 4,Verses 402-659,page 158-180,Vol 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* This is one king who Kashmiri Pandits need no mention of.Almost all of us in our hour of vanity refer to the miraculous powers of our forefathers the curse of who led to Jayapida's painful end.We often take re-course to our past and foolishly so. What Shudda has observed with respect to Jayapida is true and just goes on to prove my point that the reasons for Icocnoclasm or persecution by non-muslim kings of Kashmir could have been anything but religious expansion or promotion of their own faith.That greed was the motive for his persecution of his subjects can be easily testified by this verse Ref verse 628,Taranaga 4,page 177,Vol1,Stein's Translation "In his persistent greed he went so far in cruelty,that for three years he took the (whole) harvest,including the cultivator's share" 6.Ksemagupta:This king finds mention in Taranga 6,verses 150 to187,page 247 to 250,Vol 1,Aurel Stein's translation. Shudda refers to Ksemagupta's iconoclasm by his act of burning down of holy Jayendra Vihara and subsequent errection of temples.Let us ourselves read what Kalhana says about this incident Ref:171-173 verses,Taranga 6,page 248,Vol1,Stein's translation. "In order to kill the Damara Samgrama,who when attacked by the assassins,had enetered the famous Jayendravihara,he(Ksemagupta) had the latter burnt down without mercy.Taking from this Vihara,which was entirely burned down,the brass of the image of Sugata(Buddha), and collecting a mass of stones from decaying temples,he erected the (temple of Siva) Ksemagaurisvara in a market street of the city,thinking foolishly that the foundation of the shrine would perpetuate his fame" Now,the motive for burning the Vihara is known to us as is the foolish reason for erecting a temple.The king proves himself to be a wicked soul but to attribute the reasons of religious bigotry for the destruction would be taking the argument too far. The argument that he used material from the Vihara to build the temple is fallacious because Stein's translation itself is clear when it reads"and collecting a mass of stones from decaying temples"Even the Sanskrit verse reads"Devagrah" which means temple.Kalhanauses the word "Chaityas or Viharas" to describe Buddhist places of worship ,although a Chaitya is the place of worship while a Vihara is a monastry in which Chaityas were generally situated. 7. *Harsha:This king finds mention in Taranga 7 and Kalahana has written extensively on this king.Ref Taranga 7,verses 829 to 1732.page 333 to 402 of Volume 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* We have already looked at the views of various historians and analysed their writings with respect to Harsha"the Iconoclast"However the discussion would be incomplete unless we refer to what Kalhana writes about this wretched king.We will also see the impact of the word "Turuska" which has baffled historians. There can be no difference of opinion as far as his title of Iconoclast goes. Let us try and understand the reasons for his Iconoclasm based on Kalhanas description.This is what Aurel Stein writes in "Harsha's temple de-spoliation" Ref Introduction Chap 5,sec 5,page 113,Volume 1 of Aurel Stein's translation. "Extravagant expenditure on the troops and senseless indulgence in costly pleasures involved Harsa in grave financial troubles.From these he endeavoured to free himself by ruthless spoliation of sacred shrines.Kalhanarelates with some humour how the incidental discovery of the treasures hoarded at the temple of King Bhima Sahi had turned the king's attention to this method of replenishing his ex-chequer.After the temple treasuries had been ransacked,Harsa proceeded to the still more revolutionary measure of confiscating divine images in order to possess himself of the valuable metal of which they were made.Kalhana records the strange fact that as a preliminary step the sacred images were systematically defiled through outcast mendicants.As Kalhana is particular to specify the few metal statues of gods throughout Kashmir which escaped Harsha's clutches,we cannot doubt the extent of Harsha's iconoclasm.*Can the latter have been instigated or encouraged somehow by the steady advance of Muhammadanism in the neighbouring terrorities?Kalahana,when relating these shameful confiscations,gives to Harsha the epithet"Turuska",ie Muhammadean,and later on makes a reference to Turuska captains being employed in his army and enjoying his favour."* >From the above it almost seems clear that Harsa was greatly influenced by Muhammedeans and is likely to have committed these acts of Iconoclasm under their influence if not at their behest.From the way he went on to destroy and defile almost all icons, without bias either in favour of Hindus or Buddhists draws a parallel to Muslim rulers who did the same.Harsa made no difference when it came to defiling Buddhist and Hindu images makes us believe that he was purely an iconoclast and the philosophy of Iconoclasm where every image deserves to be destroyed is a concept rooted in one Semitic religion alone. Let us also look at the word Turuska and its connotations with regard to Kalhana's Rajatarngni.In all there are 19 references to the word Turuska in Rajatarangni.There is one reference to Yavan in Rajatarangni.There are 14 references to the word Mlecchas in Rajatarngni. I agree with Shudda that words like Yavan,Turuska and Mleccha were used interchangeably to describe foreigners/outsiders/Muslims by Kalhana.ThatKalhana uses the word "Turuska" to describe kings like Husha,Jushka and Kanishka cannot be refuted.We however need to study the word "Turuska" in the context of how Kalhana uses it for Harsa.We also need to see how Stein understands this word.For the benefit of the readers I give below all the references to the word in Rajatarangni. Refer:Index Vol 2 page no 546 of Aurel Stein's translation. Turks,their habits iv .179;kings Huska,Juska,Kanishka called Turuskas I,170,viii 3412;enemies of Lalliya Sahi v 152;soldiers of Hammira(Mahumud), vii 51,56,70,118;sell slave girls,520;mercenaries supported by Harsa,1149;Harsa fears attack from Turuskas,1159;Muhammadean allies of Bhiksacrara,viii 885,886,919,923;northern allies of Dards,2843;invaders of the Punjab,3346;artist from Turuska Country vii.528;Harsa called Turuska i.e.Muhammadean,1095. We need to look at the Turuska reference with regard to Harsa to understand whether it was "Mohammadean" that Kalhana meant by Turushka.As far as Stein is concerned he seems to be in no doubt whatsoever.This can be safely understood by the last of the references given above and given again for easy reference.( Harsa called Turuska i.e.Muhammadean,1095,vii). As for other references except for one where Kalhana uses Turuska to describe Huska,Juska and Kanishaka all other references clearly point out that Kalhana uses Turuska as a synonym of Mohammedean.. Still let us look at some specific references Invaders of Panjab,viii,3346,page 261,Vol 2,Aurel Stein's translation……Prince Sangiya,the younger brother of Kamaliya,consecrated (a linga) under his own name.He was born from a race of Ksattriyas,who owing to their native place being within the territory of the Turuskas had learned nothing but cruelty…… Here Stein in his footnote writes..K refers to the condition of the Panjab after the Muhammadean conquest. Soldiers of Hammira(Mahmud),vii 51,56,70,118, Vol 1,pages 270-276,Aurel Stein's translation These verses make for an interesting reading because they describe the Muhhamdean conflict with the Hindu-Shahi dynasty.In this rather detailed footnotes of the verses 47-69 Stein writes"There is no doubt that Kalhana's narrative ,vii 47-69,relates to one of the campaigns which Mahmud of Ghazna directed against Trilochanpala and his allies.The identity of our account with Mahmud has been recognized by REINAUD,lc.Already before him Thomas( J.R.A.S,ix p.190sq)had shown the derivation of this term from the Arabic tittle Amiru-l-mumenin,and its application on coins and elsewhere to Ghaznavid Sultan.Reinaud has also rightly pointed out that the expression Turuska used for Trilochanpala's opponents ,vii 51,56, is particularly appropriate for Mahmud's army,which chiefly consisted of soldiers of Turkish origin." Documentary evidence heavily supports the fact that Harsa was greatly under the influence of his employed Muslim commanders.From the available references it can also be safely understood that in the context of Harsha Kalhana uses the word Turuska to refer to Muslims alone. >From the above one can conclude that though Harsa's iconoclasm had its origins in greed and later in enjoyment of heresy and corruption resulting from power the effect of his Muslim friends can simply not be ruled out.Inmy opinion he was the first of the kings who started the process which was to be later followed by other"Turuska" kings. As is said "Coming events cast their shadows before'The catastrophe that was to hit Kashmiris later had its shadow in Harsha"the turuska". *Sankarvarman:This king finds mention in the Taranga 5 verses 128-227 page 202-216,Volume 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* I wrote in my posting to Shudda"Nowhere has Kalhana mentioned Shankarvarman destroying Viharas" Shudda gives us this verse from Taranga 5 as a proof of Sankaravarman's destruction of Buddhist Viharas.Let us read the verse no 161 of taranga 5.R.S.Pandit's translation pg 207. "Thus the ruler,who possessed but little character,had whatever was of value at Parihaspura,carried off in order to raise the fame of his own city" Aurel Stein's translation of this verse reads like a copy of Pandit's translation.Let us read that too.page 207,Vol1,Aurel Stein's translation. "Thus this ruler,who possessed but little character,had whatever was of value at Parihaspura,carried off in order to raise the fame of his city" Two inferences can be drawn after reading the above verse. 1.Kalhana considers the king as bereft of any character. 2.He took away things from Parihaspura to raise the fame of his city. In order to understand whether this was an act of destroying Viharas alone,we need to know which buildings existed at Parihaspura in the first place.Was Parihaspura a city of Buddhist Viharas alone? Was Parihaspura a city where Buddhist Viharas outnumbered Hindu temples?Did Shankaravarman destroy Parihaspura?Are there any direct/indirect references in the verse mentioned above which would indicate Shankarvarman destroying Viharas? All these questions need to be answered before finding out whether Sankarvarman destroyed any Viharas at all or if he did so how many to be precise and which ones.So let us go back to Rajatarangi and read Taranaga 4,verses 194-209,Vol 1 page142-143 of Aurel Stein's translation. Parihaspura drew its name from Parihaskesava(Lord Vishnu) the image of who was the first installation at Parihaspura.If one reads through all the verses that I have referred to above it would not be hard to know that except for two images of Buddha(including the famous Brhdbuddha image) all other installations were those of Hindu gods and goddesses mainly Vishnu. So Shudda's derivation (from verse 161 of Taranga 5)that stealing of material of any worth from Parihaspura is equal to destruction of Viharas holds no water.If at all he did destroy Parihaspura,Kalhana would have mentioned this in great detail for Parihaspura was no pushover as a city.It was built by the tallest Kashmiri King ever.Kalhana himself describes it as town" that mocked the residence of Indra" .How could a historian of Kalhanas repute have erred in mentioning its destruction at the hands of Shankarvarman and forgiven Samkaravarman for destruction of a city like Parihaspura. Shudda's attempts to communalize Samkarvarman don't seem to work.Let us also note that Kalhana says "Sankarvarman took away anything of value"No way does he write or even gives an indication that Sankarvarman destroyed the city,leave alone Viharas. I request my friend Shudda to come up with more plausible explanations than the one he has given.It is good to read between lines.That is how history should be read but imagining is different from reading between the lines. Let us look at the other verses that Shudda has mentioned about Sankarvarman. I am in total agreement with Shudda that Sankarvarman destroyed temples and like Harsha ,he too had officers who supervised the same.I had in no case argued that Sankarvarman was a just king who did not persecute his subjects neither had I argued that he did not destroy temples.All I had said was Kalhana nowhere mentions that Sankarvarman destroyed Viharas the credible evidence for which, I have already given.That he destroyed temples and collected share of profits from them proves that Sankarvarman was a wicked and a greedy king but that he destroyed Viharas is simply preposterous. No direct or indirect reference is given either by Kalhana or later by Stein which would indicate that he selectively persecuted Buddhists or other sects who were social outcasts. Let us now look at Agam-adambara which Shudda presents as a proof of his argument that non-vedic people were prosecuted by Shankarvarman.I salute this great master of history who outrightly rejects Jonaraja,Shuka,Srivara and Prajabhatta as not being credible historians yet he presents a poet as a source of history.It just goes on to show what ridiculous lengths some of us can sometimes go to prove our point.Agam-adambara is a play and hence not in any way a source of credible historical evidence.While plays,stories,poetry written in a certain era do indicate the social,cultural and other facets of that era we cannot use them as credible historical evidences.We cannot use " Haroun and the Sea of Stories" a thousand years from now as a historical source to understand a particular event of history.In the same manner Agamadambara may provide us an outline of the time of Sankarvarman,but to use it as a source of history would only be a mistake. But since Shudda has read it and wanted to quote from it as a proof of his hard work and knowledge of Sanskrit we may as well look at this also.Ipresent an essay written by Dr.Ved Kumari Ghai,who is considered an authority on Kashmir's Sanskrit Literature has written an essay on "Agamadmabara" in her book titled"Kashmir ka Sanskrit Sahitya ko Yogdhaan"published by J&K Academy of Art,Culture and Languages,Jammu ref page no 30-35 She refers to the third act of the play.This is what she says" p 32 "Teesre Ank main Tantrik Shaiv Sadhak Kankalaketu tatha Shamshanabhuti bhaybheet hain ki Shankarvarman aur uska mantra Jayant,aadveik matavlambiyon ko desh se bahar nikalne par tule hain.Unki yojna yeh hai ki Yogeshwari Kalangi Shika ke madhyam se Maharani Sughanda par prabhav daalkar iss nishkasan ko rukvaya jayen.Tabhi dondi sunayee padti hai ki Sankarshana aur Maharaj Sankarvarman kee Aagya anusaar jagat pravah se chale aa rahe nana agam anuyayi apne apni kriyaen karte huyean rajya main rahe parantu prastut dharmo main vighan daalne wale tap se vimukh papi logon ko raja sankarvarman samapt kar denge.Bahut se sadhu dar kar rajya se bhagne lagte hain.Sankarshan svyam shaiva ashram me jaa kar shaivmata anuyyayeon ki branti door karta hai tatha rajya se bhagte huve logon ko lautane ko vyakti bhejta hai" The above very clearly shows how the kings representative himself stops mendicants belonging in my opinion to Laukilisa or Pashupat Cult , from leaving the country. In the fourth act of the play kings wife Sughanda calls for a congregation of saints of various schools of philosophy and to our surprise even Carvakas join the assembly.In the end of the discussions the chairman Bhatt Sahat concludes by saying the following,in the words of Ved Kumai "Jaise kisi nagar ya mahal main pravesh karne ke ichuk alag alag dwaron se pravesh kar sakte hain usee prakar moksh ke ichhuk sadhak bhi moksh ki praapti ki liye alag alag marg apna sakte hain"ref p 34, Now my dear friend where is the question of selective persecution. Although I have put forth my comments on Adam-agambara I still don't consider this as a historical source though it can be a reflection of the times of Shankarvarman.Poets/playwrights have poetic license and use it liberally.They use Alamkaras and Atishouktis to add spice to their works.Soto use or even suggest using them to verify a certain historical event is committing historical hara-kiri. Here I suggest not admonish Shudda to read Nilamatapurana now that he has already taken a plunge himslef.It is incidentally translated by Ved Kumari only. *Anangpala:Taranga 7,verse 147;*This bugger was not a Kashmiri , nor a king or a king who ruled Kashmir. That he was related to King Ananata was his only connection to Kashmir.It is like a nephew of Rahul Gandhi coming from Italy and then doing something which is out of sync with our culture.Can I take this an example of Rahul Gandhi being a non-conformist or less-Indian or something of that sort. Giving examples of Prince of Kabul for proving Hindu Iconoclasm in Kashmir shows that Shudda had to work really hard to find examples to justify his argument. Summary:Kalhana records Kashmir's history for a total of 3339 years.Thereare 147 kings who find mention in Rajatarangni.Out of these our learned friend (after a lot of hard work and digging,even muck raking)could find only seven kings (as per his analysis) who he believes to have committed acts of Iconoclasm and persecution.He does not go into the motives for the same except in case of Harsha where he defends his citadel that Harsha wasn't really so-much under Islamic influence to have committed acts of iconoclasm against Hindu and Buddhist icons as Muslim rulers later did. Let us assume(playing Shudda's advocate) all seven of the kings including Anangpala(an Afghan prince) did commit acts of iconoclasm wouldn't it be more of an exception/aberration rather than a rule.Although I have conclusively proved on the basis of written evidence that not more than 4 kings in an entire span of 3339 years have resorted to such acts.This is not to say that Hindu kings were any better than Muslim kings in terms of governance/administration ,justice delivery system or persecution of their subjects.Not even one Pre-Islamic king has been found to have resorted to selective persecution on the basis of faith. Now compare this with the kings in the Islamic period of approximately 450 years one can count on ones fingers the kings (Zainul-abidin,Akbar,Hassan Shah,Jehangir,Shah-Jehan)who did not resort to large scale persecution on the basis of religion & iconoclasm.That Shia's or Sunnies also subjugated each other is but a proof of religious intolerance within Islam's different sub-sects.A detailed account of the same has already been provided in the earlier chapter titled"Motives Behind Iconoclasm-The Muslim Kings".More evidence shall be shared in the next chapter where we will discuss Jia Lal Kilam and how Shudda uses his book. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:17:46 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:47:46 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-V Message-ID: <13df7c120712251947w357eb75dk31382b98511dd7fe@mail.gmail.com> JIA LAL KILAM –WHAT SHUDDA REFERS TO AND WHAT HE DOESN'T. I had given a certain reference to this book in my previous posting.Irequested Shudda to read this book so that he could know how Birabar Dhar as a representative of Kashmiris (both Hindus as well as Muslims) had gone to Sikhs to seek their help to free Kashmir from the clutches of the Afghan rulers.When Afghans came to know of this they took his daughter away to Afghanistan and his wife consumed a diamond so as to escape their cruel hawks. Eventually the Afghans were defeated.The Sikhs wanted to bring down the Shah-i-Hamdan mosque(which as you know was built after breaking a Kali temple)but Birbar Dhar requested them not to do so.This I gave as an example of how a Kashmiri Pandit tried to save his nation(Kashmir) from the clutches of the ruthless Afghan kings.This also is an example of the religious tolerance shown by Pandits who despite being brutally subjugated by Afghan kings did not resort to religious bigotry despite the fact that they knew that the mosque was a built on a Hindu Temple. This was to make a point that unless Kashmiris acknowledge the role of all those (irrespective of their religion) who fought for its sovereignty and freedom the minorities would never feel or be a part of that movement. Jia Lal Kilam's book"A History of Kashmiri Pandits" is his understanding of history of a community of people who are today referred to as Kashmiri Pandits.Our friend Shuuda gives three quotes from this book.He begins by saying," Pandit Jia Lal Kilam's 'A History of Kashmiri Pandits' Even Pandit Jia Lal Kilam, who Rashneek Kher refers to approvingly, does not offer a substantively different conclusion from what I am saying. I offer below a set of 3 quotes from his book. (edited by Advaitavadini Kaul)" In Shudda's opinion Jia Lal Kilam and he are more or less saying the same thing.He gives 3 qoutes wherein he tries to prove that subjugation of Pandits/Brahmans had taken place far before Islam came to Kashmir.OK Taken Sir.Does that mean it is thus right to keep continuing that subjugation or persecution. Well that being true I am giving below from the same book references (not 3 but almost 50) to show the kind of atrocities which were inflicted by most Muslim rulers (with a few exceptions) on the non-Muslims.This is not to say that Muslim people participated in these orgies of death and destruction.Even among the mayhem that was let loose by these cruel kings on their subjects especially non-muslims there are instances when Hindus supported Muslims and vice-versa.Please be kind to read the following references from the Jia Lal Kilam's "A History of Kashmiri Pandits"This shall clearly explain how religious persecution and iconoclasm was directed towards non-Muslims.Examples from pre-Islamic era will look like minor skirmishes when one reads through these references. JLK:Jia Lal Kilam 1. pp 24-25,JLK,cross ref:Pir Hassan Shah,Vol1,p 495 Zul-chu ordered a massacre.Thousands were killed,more were sold as slaves to Tartar merchants…………….Zul-chu or Durl-chu took about 50,000 brahmans with him as slaves. 2.pp 30---,JLK, The king in order to break the upheaval amongst the Hindus, turned his attention towards their temples which must have provided a meeting place for them.Hassan the Kashmiri historian says that almost all the temples in Srinagar including the one at Bijbehara were greatly damaged. 3.p 30,JLK The methods adopted by Sikander in this behalf may well be given in the words of Hassan.After having described the great homage paid by Sikander to Mir Muhammad Hamdani,at whose bidding he constructed a khankah,known as Khankaha-i-Maula,on the site of an old temple called Kali Shri,Hassan says *"this country possessed from the times of Hindu Rajas many temples which were like the wonders of the world.Their workmanship was so fine and delicate that one found himself bewildered at their sight.Sikander goaded by feelings of bigotry destroyed them and leveled them with the earth and with their material built many mosques and khankahs.In the first instance he turned his attention towards the Martand temple built by Rama Deva on Mattan Karewa.For one full year he tried to demolish it but failed.At last in sheer dismay he dug out stones from its base and having stored enough wood in their place set fire to it.The gold gilt paintings on its walls were totally destroyed and the walls surrounding its premises were demolished.Its ruins even now strike wonder in men'd minds.At Bijbehara three hundered temples including the famous Vijeyshwara temple which was partially damaged by Shahab-ud-din were destroyed and with the material of the latter a mosque was built on its site a khankah which is even now known as Vijayeshwar mosque"* 4.p 31-32,JLK,cross reference Pir Hassan Shah,Vol 1,p 180 Gruesome conversion of Hindus,their conversion,burning of six maunds of sacred thread,see how many brahmans embraced death rather than convert.Booksthrown into Dal. 5.p 33,JLK, cross reference JC Dutt pp 65-66,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II p 186 6.p 34,JLK,cross reference Sufi,G.M.D Kashir Vol 1,p 89 7.p 36.JLK,cross reference Dutt,JC pp 67-68 8.p 49JLK, "During Haider Shah's reign Pandits suffered immensely" 9.p 50,JLK,cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol 2,p 20 10.p 50,JLK,cross reference ,Dutt JC,p 188 11.p 50,JLK,cross reference ,Dutt JC,pp 195,196. 12.p 57,JLK,cross reference ,Dutt JC,p 261. 13.p 62,JLK, cross reference ,pandits being targeted 14.p 62,JLK, cross reference ,Fauq,History of Kashmir 15.p 62,JLK, cross reference ,Fauq,History of Kashmir 16.p 65,JLK,cross refernce,Dutt,JC,p 348 17.p 66,JLK, cross reference,Dutt JC,p 353-54 18.p 67,JLK,cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah Vol II,pp 273-74 19.p 69,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II p 332 20.pp 89-90,JLK cross reference,Fauq,History of Kashmir,p 91. 21.p –90-91,JLK,Muhatta Khan's looting,killing and maiming of Hindus,Burning of Houses and other atrocities…. cross reference…Fauq ,History of Kashmir 22.p92,JLK, cross reference,Pahalwan Ananad Ram,History of Kashmir 23.p 109,JLK, a popular verse describing the condition 24.p 123,JLK, cross reference,Fauq,History of Kashmir 25.p 125,JLK, cross reference,Fauq ,History of Kashmir 26.p 125,JLK, cross reference,Anand Ram Pahalwan,History of Kashmir 27.p 126,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol-II p 669 28.p 126,JLK,cross reference,Kachru Birbar,History of Kashmir 29.p 131,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah, Vol II,p 673 30.p 131,JLK, cross reference,Pahalwan Ananad Ram,History of Kashmir 31.p 134,JLK,read about Haji Karim Dad and his atrocities on Pandits. 32.p 135,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II p 684 33.p 135,JLK,a supplement to Narayan Kaul's History of Kashmir by Anand Ram Pahalwan. 34.p 135,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah Vol II p 684. 35.p 141,JLK, cross reference,Fauq,History of Kashmir. 36.p 142,JLK, Azad Khan's appetite for Pandit blood. 37.p 149,JLK, cross reference ,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 696. 38.p 153,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 701. 39.p 154,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,pp 699,701 40.p 154,JLK, cross reference,Kachru Birbar, A History of Kashmir 41.p 154,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II p 701, 42.p 154,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II p 701. 43.p 155,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 701. 44.p 155,JLK, cross reference,Fauq,History of Kashmir, also Kachru Birbar,A History of Kashmir. 45.p 166,JLK, cross reference,Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 732. 46.p 166,JLK, cross reference, Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 732. 47.p 173,JLK, cross reference ,Fauq,History of Kashmir 48.174,JLK, cross reference ,Tarikh-1-Awam-i-Kashmir. 49,p 177,JLK, cross reference, Pir Hassan Shah,Vol II,p 748 These references stated above should serve as an eye opener to people like Shudda who try and compare Iconoclasm and Religious Persecution in pre-Islamic era to that of Islamic era. I have never stated that the Kashmiri Pandit is timeless victim but at the same time can any one refute the evidences (mostly by Muslim Historians) which stand as a testimony to how barbaric foreign rulers(the progeny of whom today seek independence in Kashmir) resorted to brutalities against the native populace of Kashmir.How they left no stone un-turned to convert all of us to the only "true religion".In all this I pay glorious tributes to kings like Zainaul abidin,Akbar and Shah-Jehan who ruled Kashmir without bias. Conclusion: While I agree with Shudda that Islam does not alone have a monopoly of religious intolerance,in case of Kashmir most of the Muslim rulers were bigots,extremely intolerant and conversion or subjugation topped their agenda.We cannot but miss the fact that in pre-Islamic Kashmir (for which we have written History) of around 3500 years we have 4 instances,OK 7 instances of iconoclasm(to keep Shudda happy) and none of religious persecution at the hands of kings(Hindus,Hunas,Buddhists,Nagas,Kushans) while as in the 450 odd years of Islamic rule we have more than 100 such instances( most recorded by a sizeable number of foreign Muslim Historians with pride).I alone have have given you 50 from just Jia Lal Kilam's book and many more in the second chapter. So matter how hard Shudda tries he cannot refute truth, that too,when the odds of historical evidence are heavily stacked against what he is trying to prove. I do have word about Shudda's arrogance about his scholarship on Kashmir (the bonafides of which have been unproven here).Even in victory be humble my dear friend.I admire you as a scholar but to think that everyone else is half baked just because they cannot find the time to sit and take out references is overconfidence falling over.Here I have shown that we have what it takes to take on self-styled authorities on Kashmir like you and your ilk.And please understand you will never and I dare to use the word never know as much about Kashmir as any Kashmiri would not because of your scholarship but because when you are born in a certain land you learn so many things unwittingly.There are so many phrases and idioms in the language that tell us of our past,the bedtime stories are a world of knowledge which no book of history can suffice for.The vakhs and shrukhs that ordinary people on the street quote tell us about the socio-cultural aspect of the age when that vakh/shrukh was written.When for instance Gulzar Ganai sings Shams Faqir's couplets on Lal Ded ,in just one couplet sometimes he covers relationship between Nun Rishi,Shah-i-Hamdan and Lalla.No matter how hard a scholar tries he will never know or understand more than a son of the soil.So please stop playing an authortity on Kashmir's History and Past.Iknow of so many Marxists who write about Kashmir without really knowing even the basics.Now that you have read Rajatarangi you have just joined the pre-school.Be born again, in Kashmir to know it. When a Kashmiri Muslim writes or pens down something even if I am in disagreement with him/her I really feel that yes he/she may have a pain of losing someone,or a house or a relative who's missing.No matter how exaggerated his presentation may sometimes be his emotions still deserve and command our respect and empathy.A Kashmiri Muslim is a sufferer like his Pandit brethren and needs to be heard for his pain lives in us but when people who have nothing at stake take positions about which they have little or no idea it irks me no end.They simply feed their own souls by thinking they are playing the under-dog's advocate. As for your sermonizing as what we should to please try to practice what you preach. Never under-estimate your adversaries, my friend.This couplet from one of my favourite Urdu poets' Allama Iqbal shall subtly convey the message to you as well as Pawan Durani "Nau med na ho in se ai rahbar-e-farzana,Kam kosh to hai lekin,be zauq nahe rahi" Be not despaired of these,limousine liberals oh my friend Pawan Durani,poor in means,we maybe,but aren't poor in passion and zest. So Shudda,In case you wish to engage in another scholastic discussion on Kashmir you are most welcome to do so. Merry Chrsitmas! Rashneek Kher -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 10:14:44 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 04:44:44 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net> <007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash> <6b79f1a70712232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712252044w2856833cib267b92837e84f07@mail.gmail.com> Zainab , I hope you would understand that we are discussing people and not God's. I hope you know when to use the word "Pawan Putra" at right time. Should I react in a similar way , you would not like it. Dont be a bad loser ! Pawan On 12/25/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > Dear Pawan, Did you say 'peaceful' and secure state to Gujaratis? Who are > these Gujaratis? I am certain that the Gujarati Muslims of Gujarat are as > Gujarati as the 'Hindus' that you keep referring to are Gujaratis. Perhaps > you should be a bit specific on who these Gujaratis are? I am sure it must > be a very peaceful time for Gujaratis post March and April 2002, and that > voting under duress is as peaceful as blood pressure and hypertension. > I am also waiting for Modi in Delhi. Perhaps then we can witness a > peaceful repeat of some events of 1983, this time in the name of an Akhand > Gujarat. > Jai bharat, Jai Gujarat, Jai Modi, Jai Pawan putra, > Yours truly, > Zainab (gujju ben) > > > On Dec 24, 2007 10:27 AM, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Modi's victory is a victory of Hindus as almost everyone had started > > categorising Hindus as someone who have terrorised muslims in Gujarat. > > > > Modi not only gave good governance , he laso gave a peaceful and secure > > state to Gujaratis. His victory is victory to all Gujaratis irrespective of > > being Hindus , muslims or Parsis. > > > > The Good governance wins , the respect of majority community wins , the > > confidence and security to minorties wins. The Psuedosecularists lost all. > > > > This time it was Gujarat .... We all are waiting for Modi in > > Delhi....just few months to go. > > > > > > On 12/24/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > > unclear > > > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > > > Hindu > > > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > > > yourself > > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all > > > Hindus are > > > not Hindus. > > > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand > > > your > > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > > that > > > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > > > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > > Cheers, > > > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask > > > the > > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin > > > ka > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > > > Advani > > > > be > > > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > > communal > > > > for > > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > > > have > > > > won, Hindus have > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > > > mouth > > > > next time. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > > To: < reader-list at sarai.net>; > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > > question. > > > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > > > psudo > > > > > seculars! > > > > > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > > showing > > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be > > > formed! > > > > > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/3b1f67e2/attachment-0001.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 10:18:38 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 04:48:38 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712252048sc6329b1o2dcc866b6a174af3@mail.gmail.com> OISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > Dear Vedavati: > > Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindu > brother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it > feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing it > over and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean... > > May be that should be your new year resolution... > > Good luck... > > Oishik > > P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of a > certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... I > know we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I > hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season! > > On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > Dear Vedavati, > > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu' > > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and > how > > I > > can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks > I > > > > have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask > > my > > Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are > > and > > how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me > henceforth > > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments, > > then > > I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu' > > colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > > can > > support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians, > > Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour > > different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I > may > > > > have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I > will > > do what you have suggested. > > > > As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I > > cannot > > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this > > 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in > > this > > part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. > For > > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that > > happens > > to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their > > place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge > > from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her > > neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her > > statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my > > place > > and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > > or > > India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, > euphoric > > imagination of the city. > > > > It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the > last > > refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'. > > Is > > there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) > 'Muslims' > > to > > go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are > 'condemning' > > > > 'us' to? > > > > Truly, > > Zainab > > P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots > > caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai > > concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for > sure > > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being > built. > > All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan > > 1993 > > for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian > > descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes. > > > > > > On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > my dear zainab, > > > > > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to > > live > > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > > > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their > own > > > mistakes. > > > > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > > station? > > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was > is > > not > > > a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > > > > > id you reciprocate? > > > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place > > where > > > babri structure once stood? > > > > > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon > babar > > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think > > > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > > > > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete > > with > > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they > > don't > > > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... > > hence > > > demand for reservations..! > > > > > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > > > > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india > who > > > > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible. > > > > > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future > > also > > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim > > > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. > > > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > > take > > > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > > > > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, > > instead > > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands > > > with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > > > > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > > hindu sentiments too. > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530 > > > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' > seats instead > > he > > > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does > not > > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to > take > > > > > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt > > > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and > > when > > > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you > are > > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary > > > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left? > > What > > > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in > > the > > > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action > was > > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra > > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in > mass > > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > > in,one > > > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be > aligned. > > > > > In peace, > > > Zainab (gujju ben) > > > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > dear zainab, > > > > > > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only > > because > > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had > > voted > > > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after > > partition. > > > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here > not > > > because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > > > > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. > > > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of > seats > > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. > > > > > > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india > > like > > > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > > pathan, > > > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background > and > > > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties > talked > > > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > > hai' , > > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > > sentiments. > > > > > > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore > gujratis > > > > > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & > common > > > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > > former > > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway. > > > > > > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the > > > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > > -congress > > > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like > > > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings > > what > > > about 'kashmiri pundits'? > > > > > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for > > granted. > > > that is why it is their victory! > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800 > > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing > the > > > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it > is > > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > > > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other > > words, > > > it is humanity that has won.. > > > > > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in > > big > > > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > > > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed > in > > > Terrorist attacks... > > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a > > word > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > > > > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are > Muslims > > > > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to > > make > > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that > > all > > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever > Muslims > > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not > religion.... > > THEN > > > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > > > > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority > > of > > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West > Bengal > > > > > becoming another Kashmir.. > > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > > > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > > as > > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same > > God is > > > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through > > > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they > used > > to > > > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start > > > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > the > > > > > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > of > > > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > > > > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > > Godhra would not have taken place... > > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is > > expected > > > from their month.... > > > > > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > > win... > > > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Zainab Bawa > > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com> > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > > unclear > > > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of > > > Hindu > > > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you > > > yourself > > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all > Hindus > > > > > are > > > not Hindus. > > > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand > > your > > > > > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > that > > > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? > > > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > > Cheers, > > > Zainab (confused gujju ben) > > > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask > the > > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin > > ka > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > > Advani > > > > be > > > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > > > > > > > for > > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus > > > have > > > > won, Hindus have > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > > > mouth > > > > next time. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > > > > To: ; > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless > > > question. > > > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for > > > psudo > > > > > seculars! > > > > > > > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for > > > showing > > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be > formed! > > > > > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< > http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201 > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > OISHIK SIRCAR > > Scholar in Women's Rights > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > 60 Harbord Street > Room 016 B > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > 416.876.7926 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/818bddb4/attachment-0001.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 10:25:39 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 04:55:39 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Nadim Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712252055jdc3a492v7c2505b2ceefb5f8@mail.gmail.com> Rashneek writes about Nadim http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=25_12_2007&ItemID=38&cat=12 Regards Pawan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/6a7dfbd4/attachment-0001.html From vrjogi at hotmail.com Wed Dec 26 10:52:24 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:22:24 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712252048sc6329b1o2dcc866b6a174af3@mail.gmail.com> References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <62cba67a0712250122q63650df7jb0397e5db4929eab@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712252048sc6329b1o2dcc866b6a174af3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: oishik, i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level. vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 11:14:09 2007 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:44:09 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-II Message-ID: <13df7c120712252143v16d039f1p7aaaa2919099d1e1@mail.gmail.com> MOTIVES BEHIND ICONOCLASM-THE MUSLIM KINGS Shudda observes *It is no one's case, least of all mine, to state that iconoclasm by* *Muslim Kings in the sultanate period in **Kashmir** did not occur. It did,* *and my contention is that it is incorrect and biased to say that* *iconoclasm occurred only at the behest of Muslim rulers in **Kashmir**.* May I ask Shudda to show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm happened only in the times of Muslim Rulers.Can he be kind to show me that posting where I have said so.As far as I remember I haven't anywhere mentioned that it was Muslim Rulers alone who were Iconoclasts.I would still be ready to be corrected if I said so anywhere. What I however do re-affirm that while a miniscule percentage of Hindu,Hun(like Mihirkula),Buddhists (like Jaluka) rulers did destroy temples and some destroyed Buddhist Viharas too(of course not Shankarvarman)the reasons for the same were not religious expansion or bigotry.Unlike Muslim kings they did not think that they have a holy aim of converting Darul-Harb to Darul-Islam.The aim was not to subjugate or make people change their religion or faith but anything else.Most of the Muslim rulers destroyed temples thinking that they were doing a righteous act and were promoting Shariah by eliminating infidels(Kafir's).Many thought that they were emulating the Prophet(SAW) little realizing the difference that what Prophet Mohammed (PBH) had done while destroying the idols at Kabba(a pagan place of worship then and a mosque now) was destroying idolatory and not idols.Iconoclasm in Kashmir was endorsed by the Amirs of the day(whether general Muslims supported it or not can be a matter of debate much like whether majority Hindus supported or condemned the barbaric destruction of Babri Mosque or whether Iconoclasm, in present day Kashmir has the mandate of the Muslims of the Valley or not).There are examples galore to prove this point.In order to put this in perspective I am giving some references. *From Bahristan-i-Shahi* * "Sultan Shihabu'd-Din addressed himself to such works as would help him get peace in the world hereafter. He arranged a tomb and a burial place for himself to be used after his death. Towards the fag end of his life, he was infused with a zeal for demolishing idol-houses and destroying the temples and idols of the infidels. He destroyed the massive temple at Beejeh Belareh [31] (Bijbehara). He had designs to destroy all the temples and put an end to the entire community of the infidels.[32] " "Again it needs to be recorded that for some of the time which the holy Amir spent in **Kashmir** he lived in a sarai at 'Alau'd-Din Pora. At the site where his khanqah was built, there existed a small temple which was demolished and converted into an estrade on which he offered namaz (prayer) five times a day and recited portions of the Qur'an morning and evening. Sultan Qutbu'd-Din occasionally attended these congregational prayers." " [It may be recorded] that the temples of idol-worshippers, which had been destroyed and razed to the ground by the religious-minded and justice-loving Sultan Sikandar- God bless his grave and bless him-had been rebuilt and rehabilitated by Zainu'l 'Abidin. He had permitted idolators and polytheists to revive the practices of infidelity and they had propagated heresy (kufr) and false religion (din-i batil). With the support of some more kings,[96] the infidels had flourished day after day. But with the support and authority of Malik Musa Raina, Amir Shamsu'd-Din Muhammad undertook a wholesale destruction of all those idol-houses [97] as well as the total ruination of the very foundation of infidelity and disbelief. On the site of every idol-house he destroyed, he ordered the construction of a mosque for offering prayers after the Islamic manner." The idolatory and heresy which had existed prior to his coming to this place were effectively replaced by his preaching and propagation of Islamic laws and practices. He brought honour to all the infidels and heretics (zandiqa) of **Kashmir** by admitting them to the Islamic faith and bestowed upon them many kinds of rewards and benefactions. It is publicly known as well as emphatically related that during his life-time, with the virtuous efforts and elaborate arrangements made by the fortunate Malik Musa Raina, twenty-four thousand families of staunch infidels and stubborn heretics were ennobled by being converted to the Islamic faith. [99] It is difficult to compute the number of people who had hitherto indulged in corrupt practices of a wrong (false) faith and dissent and were put on the right track under the proper guidance of Mir Shamsu'd-Din 'Iraqi .[99] * *In fact the transmitter of (God's) grace (Mir Shams 'Iraqi) conferred favours upon the righteous Malik Musa Raina and gave him blessings which enabled him to fulfill that cherished task. Indeed, fortunate is one who has been able to become the recipient of such special consideration at the hands of a highly venerable and elderly person like him (Amir Shamsu'd-Din). After Sultan Sikandar-God's peace be upon him-no one among the Muslims who wielded authority over this country rendered as much service to Islam by its propagation and advancement as Malik Musa Raina did. Nobody was able to make as organized an effort as he did towards the advancement and furtherence of the Muhammadan religion. * Please look at how the kings viewed their acts.One thought he would get peace by destroying temples.Sultan Sikander has been defined as religious minded and justice loving by the historians of the day while in no case has Kalhana supported or even condoned breaking of religious places.He heaped scorn on kings who resorted to this. Now that's the difference. While Muslim Kings, their Amirs and even most Muslim Historians thought that the King was indulging in act of religious righteousness, kings belonging to other faiths had no such grandiose megalomania of reaching heaven (where houris would await them) by resorting to such acts. It makes an important reading into the mindset of the Muslim rulers.They clearly saw a holy purpose of converting "people of false faiths" like Shudda and me to the only "true religion".In their understanding of Islam they were doing great acts and their Amirs and most Historians of that period(especially the foreign historians who came with them ) supported this sickness unlike Kalhana who outrightly condemned these acts. Read the Last line of my reference from the Bharistan-i-Shahi *Nobody was able to make as organized an effort as he did towards the advancement and furtherence of the Muhammadan religion. * Here we are.The purpose is clear "Advancement and Furtherance of the Mohammedan Religion". *Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami* * * *For details of forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam and their massacre in case they refused to be converted, see Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami; pp. 178-80. One significant detail is that three kharwars (one kharwar is approximately equal to eighty kilograms) of Hindu ceremonial thread (zunnar) were burnt by Sultan Sikandar. (Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami, Pir Ghulam Hasan, Vol II, RPD,* Srinagar 1954.)* * * *Other Sources for Sikander Butshikan alone* *This is what historians (mostly Muslims) have to say. * *"He [Sikandar] prohibited all types of frugal games. Nobody dared to commit acts which were prohibited by the Sharia. The Sultăn was constantly busy in annihilating the infidels and destroyed most of the temples..." (Haidar Malik Chădurăh: Tărîkh-i-Kashmîr; edited and translated into English by Razia Bano, Delhi, 1991, p. 55.) * *"[He] strove to destroy the idols and temples of the infidels. He got demolished the famous **temple** of **Mahădeva** at Bahrăre. The temple was dug out of its foundation and the hole (that remained) reached the water table. Another temple at Jagdar was also demolished… Răjă Alamădat had got a big temple constructed at Sinpur. (...) The temple was destroyed [by Sikandar]." (Khwăjah Nizămu'd- Dîn Ahmad bin Muhammad Muqîm al-Harbî: Tabqăt-i-Akbarî translated by B. De, Calcutta, 1973)* * "Sikander burnt all books the same way as fire burns hay". "All the scintillating works faced destruction in the same manner that lotus flowers face with the onset of frosty winter." (Srivara, Zaina Ra-jtarangini). This I am giving more for its poetic value rather than what it says.* Also please do pay attention to the following *"At the behest of Shams Iraqi, Musa Raina had ordered 1500 to 2000 infidels to be brought to his door-steps every day by his followers. They would remove their sacred threads, administer Kalima to them, circumcise them and thrust lumps of beef into their mouths,'' mentions Tohfatul Ahbab.* *Role of so-called Sufis*: While no one can deny the fact that Kashmir was greatly influenced by Sufism and has produced some great Sufi saints and mystic poets(both Hindus and Muslims),we must stay clear of attaching a Sufi tag to every Muslim Godman.On one hand we have the great Sufi Tradition of Nund Rishi,Shams Faqir,Ahmed batwario,Rahim Saab,Swoch Kral,Prakesh Ram Kurigami,Govind Kaul,Ahmed Dar, on the other we have self styled god-men like Bul Bul Shah and Syed Ali Hamdani on whom this label of Sufi is stuck to make them more palatable to the larger masses.Let us understand this in the context of Shudda's assertions. Shudda says *It is necessary to remember that **Kashmir** is a part of **South Asia** where the rise of Islam did not accompany a military invasion, but occurred largely due to the example set by missionaries and religious divines.* * * My comments Syed Ali Hamdani or Shah-I Hamdan as he is popularly called by Kashmiri Muslims is widely regarded as the man responsible for conversion of Kashmiris to Islam.Shudda has agreed in our previous discussions on this very forum that the Shah-i-Hamadan mosque was built after demolishing a Kali temple(and there are enough historical records to prove that, apart from the fact that to this day Pandits perform prayers alongside the converted structure).Now that itself should have restrained a scholar of Shudda's repute to make the statement that he has made above. That not-withstanding I would like to inform the forum that before Shah-i-Hamadan left Kashmir he ordered the king to impose the following sanctions on Non-Muslims.I am enumerating them for your reading please. 1) The Hindus will not construct any new temples under the rule of Muslims. 2) They will not repair old temples fallen into ruins. 3) They will respect Muslims. 4) They will not dress like Muslims. 5) They will not ride a horse with saddle & bridle 6) They will not put on a ring. 7) They will not carry swords or bows & arrows. 8) They will not adopt Muslim names 9) They will not harbour spies or act as spies 10) If any relation of their's wants to embrace Islam, they will not oppose it. 11) If a Muslim comes to attend a Hindu meeting he will be respectfully received. 12) They will receive Muslim travelers into their houses & provide them hospitality. 13) They will not prevent Muslim travelers from staying in their temples & shrines. 14) They will not mourn their dead loudly. 15) They will not buy Muslim slaves. 16) They will not build houses in neighbourhood of Muslims. 17) They will not sell intoxicating drinks. 18) They will not carry their dead near the grave-yards of Muslims. 19) They will not openly practice their customs & usages among Muslims. 20) They will not give up their traditional dress so that they can be distinguished from Muslims. *In the end the fiat in the form of an advice dictated if any Hindu dares to flout any of conditions, he should be first looted and then possession of his body is halal(Zakhiratul- Muluk).* (Source:Dr.Qayoom Rafiquee's doctoral thesis titled"Sufism in Kashmir") In case this is not enough proof for anybody's flight of fancy which makes him believe that Islam spread peacefully here are some examples from the same thesis.If this isn't persecution in the name of religion then I wonder what is. Writes Dr. Qayoom Rafiquee, "Mir Mohammad was not ready to give the status of Zimmis to the Hindus of Kashmir and treated them as kafirs who were not obedient to Islam, but were at war with it". Sufism in Kashmir, P-101 Again to quote Rafiquee, 'the medieval Muslim sources inform us emphatically that infidelity was uprooted from Kashmir through the influence of Mir Mohammad'. Sufism in Kashmir 101. *And sadly some of us have the cheek to say Islam in **Kashmir** spread through divinity and personal example of missionaries.* This should put to rest any imaginative thought processes of Islam spreading in Kashmir through "divine incarnation of Dervishes and examples set by missionaries".If someone still wants to stick to his point then I hope the same divinity that dawned on our forefathers in Kashmir dawns on him too. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From vrjogi at hotmail.com Wed Dec 26 11:20:52 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:50:52 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <00db01c8470a$f3396890$6602a8c0@taraprakash> References: <587554.51245.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00db01c8470a$f3396890$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: what is meant by 'your beloved' country? don't you stay in this country? is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > _________________________________________________________________> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 11:30:42 2007 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 06:00:42 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Oishik, Who you are I do not know.... But the way you have written to Vedavati is intolerable... And since you have used your words, now you have hear our words... and mind it, see our decency in even being vulgar... Read my reply... Let me tell you what Hinduism means - 1. we consider every women as mother, sister or daughter (other than our wife)... Hence we consider Muslims women equivalent to our mother... Thus, when you are abusing us, you must understand that your abuse is bouncing back to your own mother, sister or daughter... as that is the relation we own with them all... 2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you think these are the work of terrorist alone... 3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill them... God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a humanity... I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... I am writing purely because this is happening... And let Muslims accept that if Gujarat riot has happened, where both Hindus and Muslims died... there are these things that are continously happening.... And please please, do not use abuses agains our sisters... This is provoking and has provoked me to tell all these... Best regards, ----- Original Message ---- From: Vedavati Jogi To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election oishik, i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level. vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From sabirhaque at yahoo.co.in Wed Dec 26 11:34:25 2007 From: sabirhaque at yahoo.co.in (Sabir Haque) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 06:04:25 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] H sentiments up your A In-Reply-To: <466125.95143.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <293112.85169.qm@web8608.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear all, I being a muslim brother, pardon me, if not considered a brother. But a certain amount of similar emotions did arise reading that mail of Vedavati, although this will be looked at differently as me being a muslim brother. But I agree with Fatima, ignoring them is the best measure. "You don't even deserve my hatred, not to mention my attention" regards, Sabir Haque "S.Fatima" wrote: Dear Oishik and others (maybe not Zainab) I am sorry, but it seems all that the Psecularists are left to do now is to jerk their knees to show their frustration. Have we fallen so low after the defeat that we can't even think rationally. Tell me frankly, is this the only way left to make a dialogue. Or are we not interested in a dialogue? Frankly, I am not surprised at Modi's victory. To me, life is not so black and white so as to see it through only an election defeat or victory. Do you think some miracles would happen to turn Gujarat into a peace-utopia had the congress come to power? Its going to take ages to turn this country into a sensible place to live in. Let us first make ourselves a little more sensible. S.F. > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR > wrote: > > Dear Vedavati: > > > > Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... > take that from a Hindu > > brother of yours who had done that a long long > time back... trust me it > > feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of > it... you'll keep doing it > > over and over again... shoving up the Hindu > bullshit I mean... > > > > May be that should be your new year resolution... > > > > Good luck... > > > > Oishik > > > > P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the > purposeful use of a > > certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is > indecent or not)... I > > know we need to confront radicalism with reason... > and not drivel... but I > > hope to be excused this time... for the sake of > the holiday season! > _________________________________________ Do you get hundreds of mails everyday? Delete none. Go to http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_mail_9/*https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: Sabir Haque New Media Artist blog: www.oddexistenz.blogspot.com photo 1: www.flickr.com/photos/oddexistenz photo 2: www.picasaweb.google.com/oddexistenz video: www.youtube.com/user/oddexistenz --------------------------------- Do you get hundreds of mails everyday? Delete none. Keep them all. From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 12:23:05 2007 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 06:53:05 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Idol worship Message-ID: <543470.13635.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> For those who have advocated Idolatory as abuse to God - let them show One religion and one society in the world who do not worship Idols and are peaceful... Quick questions: 1. What are words describing Allah? Only literates can read those words. Blind can hear those words. Blind and Deaf can neither read nor hear those words - what about those Muslims. 2. Do you believe that a picture (image) is worth more than 1000 words? What would you prefer to worship - words or images. Which is more impacting - picture or words? These questions might seem to be simple, but they are not. let me put some analysis for you... 1. Hindus worship Ideals and not Idols. Ask the most idiot of all Hindus, would the stone move or talk for you and he will so 'No'. But if you ask the same Hindu, what will your stone do if I break it, and he will reply what will your Allah or Christ do it, if I abuse him. The answers are same on both side, the effect is same. But one question is sure to think in depth - why do Hindus worship Idols then when all of them knows that it cannot move or talk? And answer is so simple - Can Allah or Christ move or talk? You find Allah and Christ in your words, we find our God in Idols. How beautiful your words are you know, but we know our Idols are the most beautiful creations of some hands. 2. Hindus worshipping Idols while knowing that it will not move or talk signifies that Hindus are worshipping the Immaterial in relation to Material (Both of which constitutes the world). But Islam or Christian think that God is an entity that sits somewhere in 7th world and watches helplessly on us. 3. Names like Allah or Christ signifies the identity of God as an entity. 4. God as One is also in Hinduism, but not illogical to say that he is material bounded by smallest finite number 'One'. Hindus believe that all manifestations and energies of manifestations when summed up results in that 'One' which has formed everything and which is the formation too. Thus the 'One' is explained. 5. Human minds are materialistic. Senses requires material to sense and understand things. Hence, to understand and feel God, words, images, emotions, everthing in Hinduism has a place. 6. Love, respect and regard is the pillars of all Hindu worship (Unlike all other religions, where they worship religion and force the same on others). 7. Deities in Hindus are natural powers - they were not humans. They are used as metaphors to explain the natural science. Thus, story of Brahma, Vishnu and others in Quran doesn't mean that they had physical existence - they are the icons to relate to natural powers. For example, Jyotir Lingam means Shiv - The God of Light - Jyoti meaning light and Lingam in sanskrit meaning Symbol. Thus shiva is a symbol of light, light being the highest form of energy - and hence Shiva is called as Mahadeva. 8. Idol worhship is a social arrangement which absorbs all level of thinking to become peaceful in nature. It is because, Hindus seem to be worshipping Idols, but actually they do not worship Idols - they worship Ideals. Hence, when one worships Lord Rama, he doesn't worship Rama as God, he worships the best of God in Rama. Islam says God is most benevolent, the most kind... but fails to categorize this most and ends up in saying that he is an entity. Hinduism goes far ahead from this to say that God is within us too, with all his qualities - it is up to us to realize the best of him - humans fail to do, but the most powerful of all natural creations does this - Lord Rama and Krishna did this - and hence the best of God is what is worshipped. Nothing in Hinduism is illogical. Everything has a scientific and natural research of thousands of years behind it. It is like, we do not need to know how to build a computer and hence we are simply taught the softwares. So, a Hindus need not know what is Saraswati in natural form, but are taught to relate her with the ability to study - the ability being the power of nature that helps in building knowledge. And hence, Hindus worship Saraswati and making a beautiful idol is to ensure that everyone has the love and respect towards 'Vidya'. How will Muslims and Christians understand this - when their whole social arrangement is to kill. A child grows with a goat with love and is then taught to kill it barbarously with his hand. Anyone going against is declared Kafir and anything outside the hardlined boundary is thought as impure. If Jesus became God by forgiving his enemies, let the world start worshipping 1 billion Jesus - for Hindus have been forgiving even greater barbarism from past 1000 years. Jai Hind, ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From onlysocio at yahoo.co.in Wed Dec 26 12:38:24 2007 From: onlysocio at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:08:24 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik and Vedavati: a hindu bhangra video in the interest of the nation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <980985.94758.qm@web8408.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Vedavati, Don't talk to Oishik, he's a bad boy; bad and a mad boy. After a lot of brain cracking I've got a hindu music video for u[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2znSg9MDb8] ( your eyes and ears only though of course I cannot stop other 'secular' or as u spell "psudo" secular readers from enjoying the same); however forgive an illicit insertion here --the video and its two major characters with their spectral presence allowed me to imagine --they are you and Oishik dancing together in the interest of the nation. [Plz Use the above URL, if it fails, use search in youtube for Jogiya by Romey Gill.] yours in admiration arnab Vedavati Jogi wrote: oishik, i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level. vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: --OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Messenger blocked? Want to chat? Here is the solution. From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Wed Dec 26 12:47:26 2007 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:17:26 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik and Vedavati : a syncretic bhangra video in the interest of the nation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <467177.68903.qm@web8515.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Vedavati, Don't talk to Oishik, he's a bad boy; bad and a mad boy. After a lot of brain cracking I've got a hindu music video for u[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2znSg9MDb8] ( your eyes and ears only though of course I cannot stop other 'secular' or as u spell "psudo" secular readers from enjoying the same); however forgive an illicit insertion here --the video and its two major characters with their spectral presence allowed me to imagine --they are you and Oishik dancing together in the interest of the nation. [Plz Use the above URL, if it fails, use search in youtube for Jogiya by Romey Gill.] yours in admiration arnab Vedavati Jogi wrote: oishik, i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level. vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.com OISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season! Messenger blocked? Want to chat? Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 13:23:58 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:53:58 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-IV In-Reply-To: <13df7c120712251942v25581e10u4a4b589ff63932bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <13df7c120712251942v25581e10u4a4b589ff63932bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712252353k5b4d2c88mc86c653170cc101e@mail.gmail.com> I must compliment Rashneek for the great work . The Interpretations given by Shuddha stand corrected. This is perhaps the best and the most extensive work I have come across in SARAI , and SARAI should be congratulated to have made this platform available to Rashneek to correct the myth which was otherwise created. Wel done Rashneek. On 12/26/07, rashneek kher wrote: > > *Part-IV* > > *Shudda's Rajatarngani* > > Let us now move to the third part of Shudda's observations where he has > written in detail about the kings who burnt temples,destroyed Viharas etc > etc.Although I have read both R.S.Pandit's translation of Rajatarangni as > well as Aurel Stein's translation( complete with notes and his travels to > many places mentioned by Kalhan)the notes that I had made on both (as a > Class XI student,I and my father traveled to a lot of places which Kalhana > mentions in Rajatarngni) were burnt when my house was razed to ground by > terrorists(sorry divinely ordained dervishes and missionaries) on the > Janam > Asthami of 1990.I will refer to Aurel Stein's translation and footnotes > since in my opinion he presents a more detailed account of Kalhana's > Kashmir. > Another reason for me to refer to his translation and footnotes is that R > S > Pandit was no historian of any repute, whatsoever, while Aurel Stein's > extensive work leaves little to imagination. Thus wherever he could he has > closed loops so that half-baked historians don't go on an imagination hunt > and derive their own meanings. > > (I apologize for not being in a position to use diacritical marks.) > > Let us look at each king mentioned by Shudda > > 1.*Jalauka:*This King finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 108-152.,Vol > 1,page > 26.Aurel Stein's translation. > > While it is true that he did destroy one Vihara(and not many Buddhist > Shrines as Shudda imagines and later tells us) the reason for the same as > mentioned in Rajatatarangni is that he was disturbed while sleeping > because > of the music emanating from the said Vihara.It clearly is no religious > zeal > that drove him to do this act. > > This can be easily understood the following(Tarnaga 1,140-144)page 26 Book > 1,Volume 1, Aurel Stein's Translation: > > "When you had lately been kept from sleep by the noise of the music of the > Vihara,you had at the instigation of wicked persons caused in your anger > the > destruction of the Vihara.The excited Bauddhas thought of me and sent me > forth to kill you.But then the Boddhisattvas called me and gave me the > following directions:'That great king is a Sakya(Mahasakya).You cannot > hurt > him;but in his presence,O good one,you will obtain liberation from > darkness(sin).In our name you shall exhort him who has been ed into guilt > by > wicked people,to give up his hoarded gold and to build a Vihara.If he does > so,no misfortune shall befall him in consequence of the destruction of the > Vihara,and atonement shall thus be made for him and his instigators." > > The king repents for the sin he committed in a fit of anger and later > builds > the Vihara and names it after the divine sorceress.The same can be easily > verified by the following Taranga 1,147,page 26,Vol 1 of Aurel Stein's > translation > > "Thereupon the king built the Krtyasarama Vihara,and worshipped there the > divine sorceress who had been freed from darkness" > > So Shudda's assertion that"Jalauka's destruction of Buddhist shrines" is > but > an incorrect statement.There is only one Vihara in question and not many > shrines.Probably in order to prove his point my friend is very liberal in > the use of alphabet (s).One may also be tempted to ask if Jalauka was > himself a Buddhist,he being the son of Ashoka. > > Notwithstanding his religious leanings we learn from Rajatarangi that he > did > destroy 1(one) Vihara for which he later repented by building a Vihara. > > Now here I ask Shudda to name one Muslim ruler in Kashmir who repented for > his acts of Iconoclasm and re-build temples. > > 2.*Abhimanyu-1.*This king finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 174-184,Vol1 > page 31-33,Aurel Stein translation. > > We straight away go to the verses which Shudda mentions as his proof of > Iconoclasm and religious persecution by Abhimanyu 1.These are 177-181. > > I don't even deem it worth discussing what can be best be defined as > Shudda's figament of imagination.Yet for purpose of clarity I discuss > it.Theimportant verse is verse 181 of Taranga 1,page 33,Vol1 of > Stein's > translation.This is how it reads > > "At that time there manifested itself some miraculous power through which > the Brahmans,who offered oblations and sacrifices,escaped destruction > while > the Bauddhas perished" > > From this verse our friend presumes that Brahmans killed or persecuted > Buddhists.He supports this what R.S.Pandit in his footnote to the verses > 180-181 says"this (snow that killed the Buddhists) is PERHAPS a poetic > description of the persecution of Buddhists during this era." > > One is tempted to ask what is the source on the basis of which > R.S.Panditpresumes his PERHAPS. > R.S.Pandit being a person of shallow knowledge of history can be pardoned > for his ignorance but when someone like our own Shudda (who I greatly > regard > for his scholarship) uses this as an example of Iconoclasm or > Persecution,it > is but sad.We could have agreed with RS Pandit,if anything in the > Rajatarangi had mentioned Abhimanyu 1, as an unjust ,licentious,communal > or > ill mannered moanarch.But that is not the case. > > Not only this,while Aurel Stein makes a detailed foot note of the verse > 180,he doesn't even bother to write a word about 181 since to any > intelligent reader it is more than self explanatory. > > 3.*Nara**:This king finds mention in Taranaga 1,verses 197-275,Vol 1,page > 34-41 of Aurel Stein's translation.* > > Shudda's explanation of the verses 199-200 of Taranaga 1,are more or less > correct.While Stein mentions the woman in question as the king's wife > R.S.Pandit mentions her as king's lover.Whichever be the case the Buddhist > monk does seduce the king's wife through magical powers. > > Enraged by this the king does destroy thousands of Viharas.The reason for > destruction of Viharas is clear and needs no explanation.Though an > unpardonable sin,clearly religious zeal or conversion or selective > persecution is certainly not mentioned. > > 4.*Mihirkula:This king finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 289-324,page > 43-48,Vol1,Aurel Stein's translation.* > > Shudda writes"Here we enter the terrain of strictly historical account of > iconoclasm in Kashmir" > > He refers to verses 289-293 of Taranga 1.Now let see what is said in them > > I re-write Stein's translation for the benefit of the readers and for an > easy explanation later. > > 289-293"Then his son Mihirkula,a man of violent acts and resembling > Kala(Death),ruled in the land which was overrun by hordes of Mlecchas.Inhim > the northern region brought forth ,as it were,another god of death,bent in > rivalry to surpass the southern region which has the Yama(as its > guardian).The people knew his approach by noticing the vultures,crows and > other birds which were flying ahead eager to feed on those who were being > slain within his armies' reach.This royal Vitala was day and night > surrounded by thousands of murdered human beings,even in his > pleasure-houses.This terrible enemy of mankind had no pity for children,no > compassion for women,no respect for the aged." > > From the above I could not find out anything that would indicate to me > that > he killed Buddhists alone or burnt their Viharas only and not Hindu > Temples.If anyone else can,I would be more than willing to be > corrected.However as Shudda mentions that R.S.Pandit in his foot note > says"Huns carried out terrible persecution of Buddhism,destroying Stupas > and > Viharas and massacring the monks.Although the Huns were hostile to > Buddhism,they protected Saivism and their kings built temples in honour of > Shiva" > > *I started looking at the other verses that Kalhana writes for this cruel > king.Surprisingly the word Buddhist or Vihara or Stupa simply does not > find > a mention in the verses which have described Mihirkula's despotic > regime.Sothe question of him destroying them simply does not arise > unless in > someone's imagination.It is possible that other Huna rulers might have > done > what RS Pandit writes as his footnote.Even that seems improbable,because > if > any such references would have been there Shudda would have found them. * > > As far as building temples Kalahana says in Verse 306,Taranga 1 Vol1,page > 46 > the following"Thus,evil-minded as he was,he founded at Srinagari the > (shrine > of Shiva) Mihireshwara,and in Holada the large town called Mihirpura" > > *I hope building a Shiva temple is no proof of Iconoclasm.* > > As for giving Agraharas,Shudda himself acknowledges that he gave it to > Brahmanas born in the Gandhara country at Vijayeshwara.What is notable is > the scorn that Kalhana heaps on these foreign Brahmanas for accepting > Agraharas from this wretched king.This is how Stein translates this verse. > > Ref verse 307,Taranga 1,Vol1,page 46, > > Brahmanas from Gandhara,resembling himself in their habits and verily > themselves the lowest of the twice-born,accepted Agraharas from him" > > *So Shudda's assertion"Here we enter the terrain of strictly historical > account of iconoclasm in **Kashmir**" falls flat for want of credible > historical proof.* > > 5.*Jayapida:This king finds mention in Taranga 4,Verses 402-659,page > 158-180,Vol 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* > > This is one king who Kashmiri Pandits need no mention of.Almost all of us > in > our hour of vanity refer to the miraculous powers of our forefathers the > curse of who led to Jayapida's painful end.We often take re-course to our > past and foolishly so. > > What Shudda has observed with respect to Jayapida is true and just goes on > to prove my point that the reasons for Icocnoclasm or persecution by > non-muslim kings of Kashmir could have been anything but religious > expansion > or promotion of their own faith.That greed was the motive for his > persecution of his subjects can be easily testified by this verse > > Ref verse 628,Taranaga 4,page 177,Vol1,Stein's Translation > > "In his persistent greed he went so far in cruelty,that for three years he > took the (whole) harvest,including the cultivator's share" > > 6.Ksemagupta:This king finds mention in Taranga 6,verses 150 to187,page > 247 > to 250,Vol 1,Aurel Stein's translation. > > Shudda refers to Ksemagupta's iconoclasm by his act of burning down of > holy > Jayendra Vihara and subsequent errection of temples.Let us ourselves read > what Kalhana says about this incident > > Ref:171-173 verses,Taranga 6,page 248,Vol1,Stein's translation. > > "In order to kill the Damara Samgrama,who when attacked by the > assassins,had > enetered the famous Jayendravihara,he(Ksemagupta) had the latter burnt > down > without mercy.Taking from this Vihara,which was entirely burned down,the > brass of the image of Sugata(Buddha), and collecting a mass of stones from > decaying temples,he erected the (temple of Siva) Ksemagaurisvara in a > market > street of the city,thinking foolishly that the foundation of the shrine > would perpetuate his fame" > > Now,the motive for burning the Vihara is known to us as is the foolish > reason for erecting a temple.The king proves himself to be a wicked soul > but > to attribute the reasons of religious bigotry for the destruction would be > taking the argument too far. The argument that he used material from the > Vihara to build the temple is fallacious because Stein's translation > itself > is clear when it reads"and collecting a mass of stones from decaying > temples"Even the Sanskrit verse reads"Devagrah" which means > temple.Kalhanauses the word "Chaityas or Viharas" to describe Buddhist > places of worship > ,although a Chaitya is the place of worship while a Vihara is a monastry > in > which Chaityas were generally situated. > > 7. *Harsha:This king finds mention in Taranga 7 and Kalahana has written > extensively on this king.Ref Taranga 7,verses 829 to 1732.page 333 to 402 > of > Volume 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* > > We have already looked at the views of various historians and analysed > their > writings with respect to Harsha"the Iconoclast"However the discussion > would > be incomplete unless we refer to what Kalhana writes about this wretched > king.We will also see the impact of the word "Turuska" which has baffled > historians. > > There can be no difference of opinion as far as his title of Iconoclast > goes. > > Let us try and understand the reasons for his Iconoclasm based on Kalhanas > description.This is what Aurel Stein writes in "Harsha's temple > de-spoliation" > > Ref Introduction Chap 5,sec 5,page 113,Volume 1 of Aurel Stein's > translation. > > "Extravagant expenditure on the troops and senseless indulgence in costly > pleasures involved Harsa in grave financial troubles.From these he > endeavoured to free himself by ruthless spoliation of sacred > shrines.Kalhanarelates with some humour how the incidental discovery > of the treasures > hoarded at the temple of King Bhima Sahi had turned the king's attention > to > this method of replenishing his ex-chequer.After the temple treasuries had > been ransacked,Harsa proceeded to the still more revolutionary measure of > confiscating divine images in order to possess himself of the valuable > metal > of which they were made.Kalhana records the strange fact that as a > preliminary step the sacred images were systematically defiled through > outcast mendicants.As Kalhana is particular to specify the few metal > statues > of gods throughout Kashmir which escaped Harsha's clutches,we cannot doubt > the extent of Harsha's iconoclasm.*Can the latter have been instigated or > encouraged somehow by the steady advance of Muhammadanism in the > neighbouring terrorities?Kalahana,when relating these shameful > confiscations,gives to Harsha the epithet"Turuska",ie Muhammadean,and > later > on makes a reference to Turuska captains being employed in his army and > enjoying his favour."* > > From the above it almost seems clear that Harsa was greatly influenced by > Muhammedeans and is likely to have committed these acts of Iconoclasm > under > their influence if not at their behest.From the way he went on to destroy > and defile almost all icons, without bias either in favour of Hindus or > Buddhists draws a parallel to Muslim rulers who did the same.Harsa made no > difference when it came to defiling Buddhist and Hindu images makes us > believe that he was purely an iconoclast and the philosophy of Iconoclasm > where every image deserves to be destroyed is a concept rooted in one > Semitic religion alone. > > Let us also look at the word Turuska and its connotations with regard to > Kalhana's Rajatarngni.In all there are 19 references to the word Turuska > in > Rajatarangni.There is one reference to Yavan in Rajatarangni.There are 14 > references to the word Mlecchas in Rajatarngni. > > I agree with Shudda that words like Yavan,Turuska and Mleccha were used > interchangeably to describe foreigners/outsiders/Muslims by > Kalhana.ThatKalhana uses the word "Turuska" to describe kings like > Husha,Jushka and > Kanishka cannot be refuted.We however need to study the word "Turuska" in > the context of how Kalhana uses it for Harsa.We also need to see how Stein > understands this word.For the benefit of the readers I give below all the > references to the word in Rajatarangni. > > Refer:Index Vol 2 page no 546 of Aurel Stein's translation. > > Turks,their habits iv .179;kings Huska,Juska,Kanishka called Turuskas > I,170,viii 3412;enemies of Lalliya Sahi v 152;soldiers of > Hammira(Mahumud), > vii 51,56,70,118;sell slave girls,520;mercenaries supported by > Harsa,1149;Harsa fears attack from Turuskas,1159;Muhammadean allies of > Bhiksacrara,viii 885,886,919,923;northern allies of Dards,2843;invaders of > the Punjab,3346;artist from Turuska Country vii.528;Harsa called Turuska > i.e.Muhammadean,1095. > > We need to look at the Turuska reference with regard to Harsa to > understand > whether it was "Mohammadean" that Kalhana meant by Turushka.As far as > Stein > is concerned he seems to be in no doubt whatsoever.This can be safely > understood by the last of the references given above and given again for > easy reference.( Harsa called Turuska i.e.Muhammadean,1095,vii). > > As for other references except for one where Kalhana uses Turuska to > describe Huska,Juska and Kanishaka all other references clearly point out > that Kalhana uses Turuska as a synonym of Mohammedean.. > > Still let us look at some specific references > > Invaders of Panjab,viii,3346,page 261,Vol 2,Aurel Stein's > translation……Prince Sangiya,the younger brother of Kamaliya,consecrated (a > linga) under his own name.He was born from a race of Ksattriyas,who owing > to > their native place being within the territory of the Turuskas had learned > nothing but cruelty…… > > Here Stein in his footnote writes..K refers to the condition of the Panjab > after the Muhammadean conquest. > > Soldiers of Hammira(Mahmud),vii 51,56,70,118, Vol 1,pages 270-276,Aurel > Stein's translation > > These verses make for an interesting reading because they describe the > Muhhamdean conflict with the Hindu-Shahi dynasty.In this rather detailed > footnotes of the verses 47-69 Stein writes"There is no doubt that > Kalhana's > narrative ,vii 47-69,relates to one of the campaigns which Mahmud of > Ghazna > directed against Trilochanpala and his allies.The identity of our account > with Mahmud has been recognized by REINAUD,lc.Already before him Thomas( > J.R.A.S,ix p.190sq)had shown the derivation of this term from the Arabic > tittle Amiru-l-mumenin,and its application on coins and elsewhere to > Ghaznavid Sultan.Reinaud has also rightly pointed out that the expression > Turuska used for Trilochanpala's opponents ,vii 51,56, is particularly > appropriate for Mahmud's army,which chiefly consisted of soldiers of > Turkish > origin." > > Documentary evidence heavily supports the fact that Harsa was greatly > under > the influence of his employed Muslim commanders.From the available > references it can also be safely understood that in the context of Harsha > Kalhana uses the word Turuska to refer to Muslims alone. > > From the above one can conclude that though Harsa's iconoclasm had its > origins in greed and later in enjoyment of heresy and corruption resulting > from power the effect of his Muslim friends can simply not be ruled > out.Inmy opinion he was the first of the kings who started the process > which was > to be later followed by other"Turuska" kings. > > As is said "Coming events cast their shadows before'The catastrophe that > was > to hit Kashmiris later had its shadow in Harsha"the turuska". > > *Sankarvarman:This king finds mention in the Taranga 5 verses 128-227 page > 202-216,Volume 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* > > I wrote in my posting to Shudda"Nowhere has Kalhana mentioned > Shankarvarman > destroying Viharas" > > Shudda gives us this verse from Taranga 5 as a proof of Sankaravarman's > destruction of Buddhist Viharas.Let us read the verse no 161 of taranga > 5.R.S.Pandit's translation pg 207. > > "Thus the ruler,who possessed but little character,had whatever was of > value > at Parihaspura,carried off in order to raise the fame of his own city" > > Aurel Stein's translation of this verse reads like a copy of Pandit's > translation.Let us read that too.page 207,Vol1,Aurel Stein's translation. > > "Thus this ruler,who possessed but little character,had whatever was of > value at Parihaspura,carried off in order to raise the fame of his city" > > Two inferences can be drawn after reading the above verse. > > 1.Kalhana considers the king as bereft of any character. > > 2.He took away things from Parihaspura to raise the fame of his city. > > In order to understand whether this was an act of destroying Viharas > alone,we need to know which buildings existed at Parihaspura in the first > place.Was Parihaspura a city of Buddhist Viharas alone? Was Parihaspura a > city where Buddhist Viharas outnumbered Hindu temples?Did Shankaravarman > destroy Parihaspura?Are there any direct/indirect references in the verse > mentioned above which would indicate Shankarvarman destroying Viharas? > > All these questions need to be answered before finding out whether > Sankarvarman destroyed any Viharas at all or if he did so how many to be > precise and which ones.So let us go back to Rajatarangi and read Taranaga > 4,verses 194-209,Vol 1 page142-143 of Aurel Stein's translation. > > Parihaspura drew its name from Parihaskesava(Lord Vishnu) the image of who > was the first installation at Parihaspura.If one reads through all the > verses that I have referred to above it would not be hard to know that > except for two images of Buddha(including the famous Brhdbuddha image) all > other installations were those of Hindu gods and goddesses mainly Vishnu. > So > Shudda's derivation (from verse 161 of Taranga 5)that stealing of material > of any worth from Parihaspura is equal to destruction of Viharas holds no > water.If at all he did destroy Parihaspura,Kalhana would have mentioned > this > in great detail for Parihaspura was no pushover as a city.It was built by > the tallest Kashmiri King ever.Kalhana himself describes it as town" that > mocked the residence of Indra" .How could a historian of Kalhanas repute > have erred in mentioning its destruction at the hands of Shankarvarman and > forgiven Samkaravarman for destruction of a city like Parihaspura. > Shudda's > attempts to communalize Samkarvarman don't seem to work.Let us also note > that Kalhana says "Sankarvarman took away anything of value"No way does he > write or even gives an indication that Sankarvarman destroyed the > city,leave > alone Viharas. > > I request my friend Shudda to come up with more plausible explanations > than > the one he has given.It is good to read between lines.That is how history > should be read but imagining is different from reading between the lines. > > Let us look at the other verses that Shudda has mentioned about > Sankarvarman. > > I am in total agreement with Shudda that Sankarvarman destroyed temples > and > like Harsha ,he too had officers who supervised the same.I had in no case > argued that Sankarvarman was a just king who did not persecute his > subjects > neither had I argued that he did not destroy temples.All I had said was > Kalhana nowhere mentions that Sankarvarman destroyed Viharas the credible > evidence for which, I have already given.That he destroyed temples and > collected share of profits from them proves that Sankarvarman was a wicked > and a greedy king but that he destroyed Viharas is simply preposterous. > > No direct or indirect reference is given either by Kalhana or later by > Stein > which would indicate that he selectively persecuted Buddhists or other > sects > who were social outcasts. > > Let us now look at Agam-adambara which Shudda presents as a proof of his > argument that non-vedic people were prosecuted by Shankarvarman.I salute > this great master of history who outrightly rejects Jonaraja,Shuka,Srivara > and Prajabhatta as not being credible historians yet he presents a poet as > a > source of history.It just goes on to show what ridiculous lengths some of > us > can sometimes go to prove our point.Agam-adambara is a play and hence not > in > any way a source of credible historical evidence.Whileplays,stories,poetry > written in a certain era do indicate the social,cultural and other facets > of > that era we cannot use them as credible historical evidences.We cannot use > " > Haroun and the Sea of Stories" a thousand years from now as a historical > source to understand a particular event of history.In the same manner > Agamadambara may provide us an outline of the time of Sankarvarman,but to > use it as a source of history would only be a mistake. > > But since Shudda has read it and wanted to quote from it as a proof of his > hard work and knowledge of Sanskrit we may as well look at this > also.Ipresent an essay written by > Dr.Ved Kumari Ghai,who is considered an authority on Kashmir's Sanskrit > Literature has written an essay on "Agamadmabara" in her book > titled"Kashmir > ka Sanskrit Sahitya ko Yogdhaan"published by J&K Academy of Art,Culture > and > Languages,Jammu > > ref page no 30-35 > > She refers to the third act of the play.This is what she says" p 32 > > "Teesre Ank main Tantrik Shaiv Sadhak Kankalaketu tatha Shamshanabhuti > bhaybheet hain ki Shankarvarman aur uska mantra Jayant,aadveik > matavlambiyon > ko desh se bahar nikalne par tule hain.Unki yojna yeh hai ki Yogeshwari > Kalangi Shika ke madhyam se Maharani Sughanda par prabhav daalkar iss > nishkasan ko rukvaya jayen.Tabhi dondi sunayee padti hai ki Sankarshana > aur > Maharaj Sankarvarman kee Aagya anusaar jagat pravah se chale aa rahe nana > agam anuyayi apne apni kriyaen karte huyean rajya main rahe parantu > prastut > dharmo main vighan daalne wale tap se vimukh papi logon ko raja > sankarvarman > samapt kar denge.Bahut se sadhu dar kar rajya se bhagne lagte > hain.Sankarshan svyam shaiva ashram me jaa kar shaivmata anuyyayeon ki > branti door karta hai tatha rajya se bhagte huve logon ko lautane ko > vyakti > bhejta hai" > > The above very clearly shows how the kings representative himself stops > mendicants belonging in my opinion to Laukilisa or Pashupat Cult , from > leaving the country. > > In the fourth act of the play kings wife Sughanda calls for a congregation > of saints of various schools of philosophy and to our surprise even > Carvakas > join the assembly.In the end of the discussions the chairman Bhatt Sahat > concludes by saying the following,in the words of Ved Kumai "Jaise kisi > nagar ya mahal main pravesh karne ke ichuk alag alag dwaron se pravesh kar > sakte hain usee prakar moksh ke ichhuk sadhak bhi moksh ki praapti ki liye > alag alag marg apna sakte hain"ref p 34, > > Now my dear friend where is the question of selective persecution. > > Although I have put forth my comments on Adam-agambara I still don't > consider this as a historical source though it can be a reflection of the > times of Shankarvarman.Poets/playwrights have poetic license and use it > liberally.They use Alamkaras and Atishouktis to add spice to their > works.Soto use or even suggest using them to verify a certain > historical event is > committing historical hara-kiri. > > Here I suggest not admonish Shudda to read Nilamatapurana now that he has > already taken a plunge himslef.It is incidentally translated by Ved Kumari > only. > > *Anangpala:Taranga 7,verse 147;*This bugger was not a Kashmiri , nor a > king > or a king who ruled Kashmir. That he was related to King Ananata was his > only connection to Kashmir.It is like a nephew of Rahul Gandhi coming from > Italy and then doing something which is out of sync with our culture.Can I > take this an example of Rahul Gandhi being a non-conformist or less-Indian > or something of that sort. Giving examples of Prince of Kabul for proving > Hindu Iconoclasm in Kashmir shows that Shudda had to work really hard to > find examples to justify his argument. > > Summary:Kalhana records Kashmir's history for a total of 3339 > years.Thereare 147 kings who find mention in > Rajatarangni.Out of these our learned friend (after a lot of hard work and > digging,even muck raking)could find only seven kings (as per his analysis) > who he believes to have committed acts of Iconoclasm and persecution.Hedoes > not go into the motives for the same except in case of Harsha where he > defends his citadel that Harsha wasn't really so-much under Islamic > influence to have committed acts of iconoclasm against Hindu and Buddhist > icons as Muslim rulers later did. > > Let us assume(playing Shudda's advocate) all seven of the kings including > Anangpala(an Afghan prince) did commit acts of iconoclasm wouldn't it be > more of an exception/aberration rather than a rule.Although I have > conclusively proved on the basis of written evidence that not more than 4 > kings in an entire span of 3339 years have resorted to such acts.This is > not to say that Hindu kings were any better than Muslim kings in terms of > governance/administration ,justice delivery system or persecution of their > subjects.Not even one Pre-Islamic king has been found to have resorted to > selective persecution on the basis of faith. > > Now compare this with the kings in the Islamic period of approximately 450 > years one can count on ones fingers the kings (Zainul-abidin,Akbar,Hassan > Shah,Jehangir,Shah-Jehan)who did not resort to large scale persecution on > the basis of religion & iconoclasm.That Shia's or Sunnies also subjugated > each other is but a proof of religious intolerance within Islam's > different > sub-sects.A detailed account of the same has already been provided in the > earlier chapter titled"Motives Behind Iconoclasm-The Muslim Kings".More > evidence shall be shared in the next chapter where we will discuss Jia Lal > Kilam and how Shudda uses his book. > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/1bb8ef32/attachment-0001.html From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 14:18:57 2007 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:48:57 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and girls around in the name freedom. 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, separating people from people. 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a ver fast pace 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare the nation as Islamic state 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands through local Muslims 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated children of careless parents. 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both area. 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work for India 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our own country. 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to achieve this nation as a group. There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. Jai Hind, ----- Original Message ---- From: Vedavati Jogi To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election what is meant by 'your beloved' country? don't you stay in this country? is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > _________________________________________________________________> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 14:21:47 2007 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:51:47 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu saint attacked by Christians Message-ID: <789928.90104.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://69.36.167.209/cgi-bin/dada/mail.cgi/archive/nll/20071226011151/ This is the reality and not what media shows... Open your eyes... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 14:47:27 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:17:27 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <010101c8470b$a07825a0$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <200471.39010.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tara Prakash I already accepted your earlier stated clarification that you do not want to homogenise. I am now trying to make sense of what "exactly" you meant. So let me re-state my enquiries: 1. If all the 'forces' named by you ( so-called pseudo secular forces + soft Hindutva forces + major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces) were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government?????? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. Who therefore does Modi represent?????? 2. If a substantial part of the 65% vote (in the Gujarat election) was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (as per Tara Prakash, whether they won or lost), then wouldnt a logical deduction from Tara Prakash's premise be that those participating voters were "evil" too?????? These are questions. Of course you can say "I said what I said and I do not care what meanings are conveyed or whether anything meaningful is conveyed at all; I said what I said" Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: If this is how you understand the message, let this be the import of my message. I of course do not want to homogenize in any circumstance. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Your words were very clear and did not need any interpretation by me. Maybe it was an unfortunate turn of phrase and words by you. In any case, now, you have clarified that you did not mean that all Hindus are evil. You have again said some interesting things. For one: """""" Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him."""" If all the 'forces' named by you were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. AND you go on to say: """"" I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil.""""" Gujarat had a 65% voter turn-out. That is quite a high percentage for any part of the world. If a substantial part of this 65% vote was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (whether they won or lost), then those participating voters would be "evil" too. So, in the "Gujarat according to Tara Prakash" it was 'mainly' the 'evil' contesting and 'mainly' the 'evil' voting. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Dear Kshmendra. An intriguing interpretation of my message. I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did. I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus. Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected. I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives. It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 15:03:45 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:33:45 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <699406.53562.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> wow!!! Hmm the reality. chanchal malviya wrote: There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and girls around in the name freedom. 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, separating people from people. 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a ver fast pace 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare the nation as Islamic state 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands through local Muslims 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated children of careless parents. 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both area. 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work for India 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our own country. 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to achieve this nation as a group. There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. Jai Hind, ----- Original Message ---- From: Vedavati Jogi To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election what is meant by 'your beloved' country? don't you stay in this country? is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > _________________________________________________________________> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/9c0c2163/attachment-0001.html From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 15:26:09 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:56:09 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] H sentiments up your A In-Reply-To: <4770FCA6.3090202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <609387.91893.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Agree or disagree but the entire mailing List Practically experienced that tapas ray dont have feeling for anything for his comments on woman,India,Hinduism,Scriptures,Ram and Politics in India quite sometime back. For that he wrote more clarifications also. So we need not consider Non-sentimental,feelingless peoples comments. Tapas Ray wrote: I fully agree with Fatima. The antics of Vedavati and her type are distasteful and pointless. Distasteful, because they insist on trying to establish the "rightness" of genocidal tyrants. Pointless, because they cannot succeed even if they try for a thousand years. But being abusive is not the way to engage with them. They need to be dealt with through argumentation if one has the taste for any sort dialogue or debate with them, or by ignoring them, for which the most effective way is to use mail filters. Tapas S.Fatima wrote: > Dear Oishik and others (maybe not Zainab) > I am sorry, but it seems all that the Psecularists are > left to do now is to jerk their knees to show their > frustration. Have we fallen so low after the defeat > that we can't even think rationally. > > Tell me frankly, is this the only way left to make a > dialogue. Or are we not interested in a dialogue? > > Frankly, I am not surprised at Modi's victory. To me, > life is not so black and white so as to see it through > only an election defeat or victory. Do you think some > miracles would happen to turn Gujarat into a > peace-utopia had the congress come to power? > > Its going to take ages to turn this country into a > sensible place to live in. Let us first make ourselves > a little more sensible. > > S.F. > > >> On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Vedavati: >>> >>> Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... >>> >> take that from a Hindu >> >>> brother of yours who had done that a long long >>> >> time back... trust me it >> >>> feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of >>> >> it... you'll keep doing it >> >>> over and over again... shoving up the Hindu >>> >> bullshit I mean... >> >>> May be that should be your new year resolution... >>> >>> Good luck... >>> >>> Oishik >>> >>> P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the >>> >> purposeful use of a >> >>> certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is >>> >> indecent or not)... I >> >>> know we need to confront radicalism with reason... >>> >> and not drivel... but I >> >>> hope to be excused this time... for the sake of >>> >> the holiday season! >> _________________________________________ >> > > > > Do you get hundreds of mails everyday? Delete none. Go to http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_mail_9/*https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/ee74be17/attachment-0001.html From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:03:58 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:33:58 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Idol worship In-Reply-To: <543470.13635.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54160.50135.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Chanchal This Reader List is not meant for the comparative study of religions. My advice and request would be to avoid religious discourses especially of the kind "my religion is better than yours" Religion does influence and interfere into political and sociological matters. That cannot be ignored but any comment/analysis needs to have specificity to a situation/issue. Chanchal, I belong to what is generally known as "Hinduism". Yet, the "Dharmik" precepts that are dear to me and that fascinate me are quite a distance from what "Hinduism" has become. My point is that just as I could find many things to criticise in Islam or amongst Muslims. I could also pick many things to criticise about Hinduism and Hindus. Muslims and Christians are as much a part of India as a Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Jain, Agnostic, Atheist... etc etc. We should look for the affirmatives (as well as negations) that would consolidate each ones contribution to a healthier India. Criticising the word or action of one who seeks to damage India is as much applicable to a Hindu as it is to a Muslim or Christian or any other one. Kshmendra Kaul chanchal malviya wrote: For those who have advocated Idolatory as abuse to God - let them show One religion and one society in the world who do not worship Idols and are peaceful... Quick questions: 1. What are words describing Allah? Only literates can read those words. Blind can hear those words. Blind and Deaf can neither read nor hear those words - what about those Muslims. 2. Do you believe that a picture (image) is worth more than 1000 words? What would you prefer to worship - words or images. Which is more impacting - picture or words? These questions might seem to be simple, but they are not. let me put some analysis for you... 1. Hindus worship Ideals and not Idols. Ask the most idiot of all Hindus, would the stone move or talk for you and he will so 'No'. But if you ask the same Hindu, what will your stone do if I break it, and he will reply what will your Allah or Christ do it, if I abuse him. The answers are same on both side, the effect is same. But one question is sure to think in depth - why do Hindus worship Idols then when all of them knows that it cannot move or talk? And answer is so simple - Can Allah or Christ move or talk? You find Allah and Christ in your words, we find our God in Idols. How beautiful your words are you know, but we know our Idols are the most beautiful creations of some hands. 2. Hindus worshipping Idols while knowing that it will not move or talk signifies that Hindus are worshipping the Immaterial in relation to Material (Both of which constitutes the world). But Islam or Christian think that God is an entity that sits somewhere in 7th world and watches helplessly on us. 3. Names like Allah or Christ signifies the identity of God as an entity. 4. God as One is also in Hinduism, but not illogical to say that he is material bounded by smallest finite number 'One'. Hindus believe that all manifestations and energies of manifestations when summed up results in that 'One' which has formed everything and which is the formation too. Thus the 'One' is explained. 5. Human minds are materialistic. Senses requires material to sense and understand things. Hence, to understand and feel God, words, images, emotions, everthing in Hinduism has a place. 6. Love, respect and regard is the pillars of all Hindu worship (Unlike all other religions, where they worship religion and force the same on others). 7. Deities in Hindus are natural powers - they were not humans. They are used as metaphors to explain the natural science. Thus, story of Brahma, Vishnu and others in Quran doesn't mean that they had physical existence - they are the icons to relate to natural powers. For example, Jyotir Lingam means Shiv - The God of Light - Jyoti meaning light and Lingam in sanskrit meaning Symbol. Thus shiva is a symbol of light, light being the highest form of energy - and hence Shiva is called as Mahadeva. 8. Idol worhship is a social arrangement which absorbs all level of thinking to become peaceful in nature. It is because, Hindus seem to be worshipping Idols, but actually they do not worship Idols - they worship Ideals. Hence, when one worships Lord Rama, he doesn't worship Rama as God, he worships the best of God in Rama. Islam says God is most benevolent, the most kind... but fails to categorize this most and ends up in saying that he is an entity. Hinduism goes far ahead from this to say that God is within us too, with all his qualities - it is up to us to realize the best of him - humans fail to do, but the most powerful of all natural creations does this - Lord Rama and Krishna did this - and hence the best of God is what is worshipped. Nothing in Hinduism is illogical. Everything has a scientific and natural research of thousands of years behind it. It is like, we do not need to know how to build a computer and hence we are simply taught the softwares. So, a Hindus need not know what is Saraswati in natural form, but are taught to relate her with the ability to study - the ability being the power of nature that helps in building knowledge. And hence, Hindus worship Saraswati and making a beautiful idol is to ensure that everyone has the love and respect towards 'Vidya'. How will Muslims and Christians understand this - when their whole social arrangement is to kill. A child grows with a goat with love and is then taught to kill it barbarously with his hand. Anyone going against is declared Kafir and anything outside the hardlined boundary is thought as impure. If Jesus became God by forgiving his enemies, let the world start worshipping 1 billion Jesus - for Hindus have been forgiving even greater barbarism from past 1000 years. Jai Hind, ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 17:38:36 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:08:36 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Why did Modi win? Looking for analyses from Anti-Modi voices. Message-ID: <681611.98800.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The Drums and Drummers of victory celebrations used to belong to the one victorious in battles/wars. Times have changed. The (usually referred to as) Mainstream Media seems to have lost the capability of objective comment/reportage whether pre or post Gujarat Elections. I am looking for informed analysis (and not peurile or frenzied by bias comments) about "Why Modi won" from Anti-Modi voices. Would appreciate such analyses being shared by those who have access to them. Kshmendra Kaul --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/a9e9b734/attachment-0001.html From vivek at sarai.net Wed Dec 26 18:51:11 2007 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 13:21:11 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: [Poem of the week] BELIEFS] Message-ID: <47725535.1060409@sarai.net> Well... In spite of all the darkness now, and the darkness to come-- happy new year, happy festive season. Vivek BELIEFS / after Kristin Dimitrova/ // Old people say that whenever someone lights a cigarette from a candle a sailor dies. Among sailors, I suppose, there is a belief that when they shave in a odd direction, an academic dies. So they try not to shave. The point is that we think About each other. © 2005, Gregory O'Donoghue Poem of the Week: http://ireland.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=10613 Gregory O'Donoghue page: http://ireland.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=10611 From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 18:53:07 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 13:23:07 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My dear Chanchal,I think we ought to, and I am saying ought to because it is very irritating to read statements that are not supported by facts and figures, but emerge out of what we 'believe' is the truth out there. I am sure that when you want to defend 'Hinduism' by pitting it against 'Islam', then you must be slightly scientific (if that is a term I may use) in making your defense. So let's get down to assess the statements that you make on 'women' in 'Hinduism' versus 'women' in 'Islam'. > You have said: > > > "2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't > try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... > Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and > misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you > think these are the work of terrorist alone..." - please give exact > sources which substantiate the statement that you have made. I also need to > research the figures (and if someone on the list can help me), but there are > 'Muslim' women who are being and have been raped in 'Kashmir' by 'Indian' > 'soldiers' and there have been women in Punjab who have been raped by > 'soldiers', 'policemen' during the strife in Punjab and even now under a > wonked version of patriarchy and a belief that women are sexual creatures to > be devoured. There have also been 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' women raped in > various riots across the country, by variously 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' men and > 'women'. > > "3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house > worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship > also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create > Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... > God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy > Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... > God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain > peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill > them... " - please substantiate your statements here too. In Islam, > Prophet Mohammed had only one daughter named Fatima. He chose her as heir > because he wanted to show to the Arab world at that time that women can also > be inheritors. Islam has not said don't respect women, treat them shoddily > from what I know through my limited knowledge of Islam. But 'Islam' is not > just the Quran and if you think so, then you are under delusion. This is > true for 'Hinduism' which is not all the 'books'. Every 'religion' in > material practice takes on different versions and meanings and also adapts > to culture. So for example, my father and grandfather as much worship Laxmi, > do chopra poojan at the time of the Diwali new year because they are traders > and businessmen and yet, they happen to be what you will call them > 'Muslims'. My father's storehouse during the riots was saved from burning > because the mob saw pictures of Durga, Laxmi and Saraswati in there and > thought the store house belonged to a 'Hindu'. If you fail to recognize that > 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' are not homogenous categories, then you will also rant > this way and 'believe' things to be a certain a way. (his office was burnt > down though) Again I am saying, at the cost of being preachy if you may, > that the hatreds in the world outside come from our own insides. Time we did > a bit of soul searching and walking around for some 'fact' finding. > "God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a humanity..." - I think time to do some fact finding about cow and cow slaughter too rather than be slavish to propaganda. I guess the poor in North India, whether "Hindu" or "Muslim", would out of compulsions of weather and poverty eat beef because mutton is too expensive and the weather demands eating fat to keep the body warm in the extreme cold. > > I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... - then blind > ignorance? prejudice which is not the same as hatred? toxic times of india? > In sisterhood, Zainab > > > Best regards, > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Vedavati Jogi > To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; > reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > oishik, > i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent > manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is > correct and it is in the interest of the nation. > > when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this > language, this shows your level. > vedavati > > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: > oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; > vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that > from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... > trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep > doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be > that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: > Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind > of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to > confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be > excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 > AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks > for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> > I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks > I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also > ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his > sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak > with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee > pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall > also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they > have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by > the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose > kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against > each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their > sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking > me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember > anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For > you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of > Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of > the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be > situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place > while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' > and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time > to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours > who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' > because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me > and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not > going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or > Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> > imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the > people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if > 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with > mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? > And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly > disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that > Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You > might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the > riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a > temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father > could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared > about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no > position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar > is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked > Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained > you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can > anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims > know their rights well but they> > never understand their > responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who > had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you > allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri > structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do > you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an > invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride > for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated > child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular > schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to > govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then > complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... > hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim > women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own > personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are > many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims > and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination > just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which > separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you > have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those > hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> > muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake > of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will > dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try > to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you > want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu > sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat > election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> > he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does > not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to > take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not > hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments > left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed > and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each > day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that > is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment > or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' > who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the > judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed > violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that > doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful > and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, > they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On > Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular > country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise > 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to > stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their > daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting > 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule > after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few > thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> > >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> > like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary > background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left > parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam > khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might > hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he > talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt > muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & > likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking > temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they > create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have > talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> > granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are > facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra > Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be > understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when > Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is > humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist > approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to > their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when > Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything > for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir > or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to > declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver > Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist > and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose > what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they > should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to > be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would > be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because > it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. > we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that > wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle > them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to > rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God > and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not > justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> > start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start > respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join > the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its > meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have > taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to > realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their > month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win > is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message > ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < > taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the > forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, > there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have > accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to > understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. > Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the > formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash < > taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu > forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with > Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son > murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the > results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight > between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost > too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be > you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; < > tapasrayx at gmail.com >> > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye > opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide > hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your > homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< > http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! > Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in > Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 > BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > 416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ > Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-465837 Size: 34636 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/adcb0029/attachment-0001.bin From vadhimoolam at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 19:29:15 2007 From: vadhimoolam at gmail.com (Vetrivel Adhimoolam) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 13:59:15 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <93D1A9BFB1D84ADA9FAA726576A5B773@vetrivel> I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing that a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist forces. The return of barbarism. ----- Original Message ----- From: chanchal malviya To: Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net Cc: sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and girls around in the name freedom. 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, separating people from people. 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a ver fast pace 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare the nation as Islamic state 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands through local Muslims 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated children of careless parents. 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both area. 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work for India 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our own country. 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to achieve this nation as a group. There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. Jai Hind, ----- Original Message ---- From: Vedavati Jogi To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election what is meant by 'your beloved' country? don't you stay in this country? is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > _________________________________________________________________> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/da0aa319/attachment-0001.html From vrjogi at hotmail.com Wed Dec 26 20:47:52 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:17:52 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: don't pay any attention chanchal. when they can't prove their views logically they start abusing others. these socalled seculars and liberals are most intolerant people. their vulgar writings show their 'level'. i have experienced it earlier also, but it really did not make any difference for me. Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 22:00:26 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comCC: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net Oishik, Who you are I do not know.... But the way you have written to Vedavati is intolerable... And since you have used your words, now you have hear our words... and mind it, see our decency in even being vulgar... Read my reply... Let me tell you what Hinduism means - 1. we consider every women as mother, sister or daughter (other than our wife)... Hence we consider Muslims women equivalent to our mother... Thus, when you are abusing us, you must understand that your abuse is bouncing back to your own mother, sister or daughter... as that is the relation we own with them all... 2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you think these are the work of terrorist alone... 3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill them... God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a humanity... I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... I am writing purely because this is happening... And let Muslims accept that if Gujarat riot has happened, where both Hindus and Muslims died... there are these things that are continously happening.... And please please, do not use abuses agains our sisters... This is provoking and has provoked me to tell all these... Best regards, ----- Original Message ----From: Vedavati Jogi To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.netSent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionoishik,i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level.vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stinkOn 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________________________________Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.inhttp://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/b20d6c56/attachment-0001.html From vrjogi at hotmail.com Wed Dec 26 20:55:54 2007 From: vrjogi at hotmail.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:25:54 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: see chanchal, my mails need moderator's approval but oshik, arnav's mails don't require this type of approval. great! isn't it. i think we now have to change the definition of 'vulgarity' also. > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval> From: reader-list-bounces at mail.sarai.net> To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:47:53 +0530> > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject> > RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.> > The reason it is being held:> > Post by non-member to a members-only list> > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive> notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel> this posting, please visit the following URL:> > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/d25f5f515de09f04f676659df32b5b09b0a146cc> _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/505236d2/attachment-0001.html From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 21:33:13 2007 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 16:03:13 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Idol worship In-Reply-To: <543470.13635.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <371759.98694.qm@web57209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> RESENDING SINCE I RECEIVED A BOUNCE (MODERATOR APPROVAL REQD FOR NON-MEMBERS). SINCE I AM A MEMMBER (OR WAS IF I HAVE BEEN REMOVED) PRESUMED IT WAS A GLITCH Dear Chanchal This Reader List is not meant for the comparative study of religions. My advice and request would be to avoid religious discourses especially of the kind "my religion is better than yours" Religion does influence and interfere into political and sociological matters. That cannot be ignored but any comment/analysis needs to have specificity to a situation/issue. Chanchal, I belong to what is generally known as "Hinduism". Yet, the "Dharmik" precepts that are dear to me and that fascinate me are quite a distance from what "Hinduism" has become. My point is that just as I could find many things to criticise in Islam or amongst Muslims. I could also pick many things to criticise about Hinduism and Hindus. Muslims and Christians are as much a part of India as a Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Jain, Agnostic, Atheist... etc etc. We should look for the affirmatives (as well as negations) that would consolidate each ones contribution to a healthier India. Criticising the word or action of one who seeks to damage India is as much applicable to a Hindu as it is to a Muslim or Christian or any other one. Kshmendra Kaul chanchal malviya wrote: For those who have advocated Idolatory as abuse to God - let them show One religion and one society in the world who do not worship Idols and are peaceful... Quick questions: 1. What are words describing Allah? Only literates can read those words. Blind can hear those words. Blind and Deaf can neither read nor hear those words - what about those Muslims. 2. Do you believe that a picture (image) is worth more than 1000 words? What would you prefer to worship - words or images. Which is more impacting - picture or words? These questions might seem to be simple, but they are not. let me put some analysis for you... 1. Hindus worship Ideals and not Idols. Ask the most idiot of all Hindus, would the stone move or talk for you and he will so 'No'. But if you ask the same Hindu, what will your stone do if I break it, and he will reply what will your Allah or Christ do it, if I abuse him. The answers are same on both side, the effect is same. But one question is sure to think in depth - why do Hindus worship Idols then when all of them knows that it cannot move or talk? And answer is so simple - Can Allah or Christ move or talk? You find Allah and Christ in your words, we find our God in Idols. How beautiful your words are you know, but we know our Idols are the most beautiful creations of some hands. 2. Hindus worshipping Idols while knowing that it will not move or talk signifies that Hindus are worshipping the Immaterial in relation to Material (Both of which constitutes the world). But Islam or Christian think that God is an entity that sits somewhere in 7th world and watches helplessly on us. 3. Names like Allah or Christ signifies the identity of God as an entity. 4. God as One is also in Hinduism, but not illogical to say that he is material bounded by smallest finite number 'One'. Hindus believe that all manifestations and energies of manifestations when summed up results in that 'One' which has formed everything and which is the formation too. Thus the 'One' is explained. 5. Human minds are materialistic. Senses requires material to sense and understand things. Hence, to understand and feel God, words, images, emotions, everthing in Hinduism has a place. 6. Love, respect and regard is the pillars of all Hindu worship (Unlike all other religions, where they worship religion and force the same on others). 7. Deities in Hindus are natural powers - they were not humans. They are used as metaphors to explain the natural science. Thus, story of Brahma, Vishnu and others in Quran doesn't mean that they had physical existence - they are the icons to relate to natural powers. For example, Jyotir Lingam means Shiv - The God of Light - Jyoti meaning light and Lingam in sanskrit meaning Symbol. Thus shiva is a symbol of light, light being the highest form of energy - and hence Shiva is called as Mahadeva. 8. Idol worhship is a social arrangement which absorbs all level of thinking to become peaceful in nature. It is because, Hindus seem to be worshipping Idols, but actually they do not worship Idols - they worship Ideals. Hence, when one worships Lord Rama, he doesn't worship Rama as God, he worships the best of God in Rama. Islam says God is most benevolent, the most kind... but fails to categorize this most and ends up in saying that he is an entity. Hinduism goes far ahead from this to say that God is within us too, with all his qualities - it is up to us to realize the best of him - humans fail to do, but the most powerful of all natural creations does this - Lord Rama and Krishna did this - and hence the best of God is what is worshipped. Nothing in Hinduism is illogical. Everything has a scientific and natural research of thousands of years behind it. It is like, we do not need to know how to build a computer and hence we are simply taught the softwares. So, a Hindus need not know what is Saraswati in natural form, but are taught to relate her with the ability to study - the ability being the power of nature that helps in building knowledge. And hence, Hindus worship Saraswati and making a beautiful idol is to ensure that everyone has the love and respect towards 'Vidya'. How will Muslims and Christians understand this - when their whole social arrangement is to kill. A child grows with a goat with love and is then taught to kill it barbarously with his hand. Anyone going against is declared Kafir and anything outside the hardlined boundary is thought as impure. If Jesus became God by forgiving his enemies, let the world start worshipping 1 billion Jesus - for Hindus have been forgiving even greater barbarism from past 1000 years. Jai Hind, ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-39 Size: 8133 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/cdfdac43/attachment-0001.bin From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 23:52:49 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:22:49 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Gary Yonge on Pre-Muslim Utopia in Europe Message-ID: To believe in a European utopia before Muslims arrived is delusional Gary Younge Monday December 10, 2007 The Guardian <> In October, a promising young Iranian-German footballer, Ashkan Dejagah, refused to go to Israel to play for the German under-21 team in a European qualifier. Dejagah, who was born in Iran and came to Germany as a child, claimed if he went to Israel he might be denied entry into Iran. His decision not to go sparked accusations of antisemitism from German Jewish groups alongside calls from some politicians that he be dropped from the team (after some deliberation, German officials decided to keep him on the team). The debate that followed shed light on how much you have to know, and how much you have to forget, to become German in some eyes, and laid some ground rules for Dejagah's inclusion and integration. "Whoever represents Germany, whether a native German or an immigrant, has to identify with the history and culture of our society," said Ronald Pofalla, the general secretary of the conservative Christian Democrats. "If he does not want to do so out of personal political reasons, then that national jersey should be removed." There are at least six million reasons why Dejagah would be better off not identifying with German history and culture when it comes to contemplating a visit to Israel. But, for the time being, here are just two. First, he will find a far less murderous recent history of antisemitism in his Iranian heritage than he will in his German. Second, if any nation exemplifies the limits of integration without a vigorous culture of anti-racism it is Germany - the European nation where Jews were most assimilated and almost found themselves wiped out. The point is not to handcuff the likes of Pofalla to their history but to liberate them from self-delusion. No competition between Iran and Germany to see who has hated Jews least can produce a winner anyone can be proud of. But in Pofalla's case it illustrates that when you live in a street full of glass houses everybody should think twice about what they throw and who they throw it at. This is not a lesson confined to Germany. It has become a Europe-wide habit to refer to Muslims in particular and migrants in general as though they are barbarians who must either be civilised or banished, before they pollute the egalitarian societies in which they were either born or now live. Lacking all sense of humility, self-awareness and historical literacy, Europe's political class acts as though these communities not only manifest homophobia, sexism, antisemitism, political violence and social unrest, but also as though they invented them and introduced them to an otherwise utopian continent. Take France. Following the recent riots there, Jacques Myard, a nationalist deputy, explained the disturbances thus. "The problem is not economic. The reality is not economic. The reality is that an anti-French ethno-cultural bias from a foreign society has taken root on French soil and it is feeding on basic anti-French racism even if the rioters have French nationality." The French may need to import many things - from trashy popular films to fast food - but the one thing they have long produced themselves is a culture of riotous assembly. I have seen farmers hurl livestock at police, and ducked as students converted street furniture into missiles. There is nothing foreign about rioting in France. In Britain, the emergence of "home-grown bombers" is mentioned as though this is a new development, when in fact we have been growing our own bombers for years. We have a whole evening dedicated to burning one - it's called Guy Fawkes night. Then there was the late gay Dutch anti-immigration activist, Pim Fortuyn. "I have gay friends who have been beaten up by young Moroccans in Rotterdam," he said. "In Rotterdam we have third-generation Moroccans who still don't speak Dutch, oppress women and won't live by our values." There was, it seems, no gay-bashing or sexism in Rotterdam before the Moroccans came. One need not be in denial about the existence of prejudice in migrant and Muslim communities to grasp how pernicious it is to regard those views as exclusive to those communities or to be the result of their cultures. Nor need we be squeamish about challenging prejudice, regardless of where it comes from. The notion that bigotry in Muslim and migrant communities presents a multicultural conundrum is just one more straw man among many. You enforce the law, without fear or favour. You promote equality to all and for all. There is no conflict between this and racial equality - it is a prerequisite for it. If an imam doesn't like women walking past his mosque in a bikini, that's too bad for him. If an MP doesn't like women walking into his surgery in a niqab, that's too bad for him, too. Both have the right to say what they think - provided it doesn't promote violence - but women have the right to wear what they like. Nor should we be in denial about the idea that certain prejudices may be more prevalent in certain communities. The issue is what we make of that and whether we are prepared to apply those conclusions with equal rigour across the board. The prevalence of child sex abuse in the Catholic church was not, primarily, about Catholicism but single men having exclusive authority over and access to young children and taking advantage of it. No one who wants to be taken seriously has tried to hold each Catholic collectively responsible for these abuses or claim Catholics are inherently predisposed to child abuse, or that the abuse was essentially religious. Even as these scandals have run parallel with the war on terror, no one is claiming that Catholicism represents a threat to our civilisation. On February 15 last year, the European commission president, José Manuel Barroso, said Europe had to stand up for its core values and express its solidarity with the Danish people after widespread unrest over the cartoons of Muhammad in a Danish newspaper. "If not, we are accepting fear in our society," he said. "I understand that it offended many peoplein the Muslim world, but is it better to have a system where some excesses are allowed or be in some countries where they don't even have the right to say this?" That same day, in the Commons, the government voted to expand counterterrorism laws by making "glorification" of terrorism a criminal offence. Speaking after the vote, Tony Blair said the new law "will allow us to deal with those people and say: look, we have free speech in this country, but don't abuse it". Herein lies the problem with Enlightenment values, as they have been promoted in recent years. The values are fine. But those who champion them most fervently also do so most selectively. They embrace Muslim women campaigning against sexism, but ignore those fighting racism, Islamophobia or war. They attack Muslim fundamentalist homophobes on housing estates, but align themselves with Christian fundamentalist homophobes in the White House. They demand secularism and assimilation, but view every action by Muslims and immigrants as essentially foreign or religious. In short, they see their own attributes and others' flaws through a magnifying glass. No wonder their vision of the world is so distorted. From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 02:02:45 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:32:45 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Com Karat's Interview to India Today Message-ID: <98f331e00712261232pd8b007bse6ee7a851acb1dd@mail.gmail.com> This is the actual text of the interview of Com Prakash Karat, Gen Secretary, CPI(M), given to India Today.. P K Ray *Actual Transcript of Question & Answers to India Today's* *Interview with CPI(M) General Secretary, Prakash Karat * * * *Q. 1: Recent discussions on the Indo-US nuclear agreement in Parliament indicated that majority of the MPs are still opposed to the bilateral treaty in its present form. Yet, the UPA Government is engaging with the IAEA on India-specific safeguards. Is the Congress party being unreasonable?* * * *Ans: These are two separate things. The discussion in parliament on the 123 agreement has clearly established that a majority of MPs in both houses are opposed to the agreement in some way or the other. The second issue is about the talks with the IAEA on the India-specific safeguards agreement. Here there was an understanding arrived at in the UPA-Left Committee that the government will go to the IAEA Secretariat for talks on the safeguards agreement. After that, the outcome of the talks will be presented to the committee for its consideration. Since this was a joint decision, we cannot say the Congress is being unreasonable in the matter. Notwithstanding this, it will be better for the government not to proceed with the agreement keeping in mind the views expressed by parliament.* * * *Q. 2: While the Left Front's opposition to the nuclear agreement has been consistence, other political groups such as the NDA or the newly formed UNPA have had their moments of inconsistencies on the subject in past few months. However, it seemed from recent debates in Parliament that all parties opposed to the deal had done their home work on the subject. Was there an informal coordination between the Left and the other parties in Parliament? * * * *Ans: While the stand of the Left parties have been consistent, the NDA and the UNPA have also raised objections to the nuclear deal. I do not think the UNPA has been inconsistent as we had discussed the matter with them and found that we have common views. As for coordination, we have been in constant contact with the major parties in the UNPA on the matter.* * * *Q. 3: The Centre's foreign policy tilt towards the US is problematic for the Left. The CPI(M) and other Left parties have opposed the US' position on Iran but the UPA Government seemed to have ignored that. Is foreign policy an irresolvable issue between the Left and the Congress? * * * *Ans: The CPI(M) and the Left parties are not for forging a strategic alliance with the United States. We expect the government to go by the Common Minimum Programme which talks of pursuing a "closer engagement and relations with the USA" but not a strategic alliance. Both on the Indo-US Defence Framework Agreement and the joint statement issued during the Prime Minister's visit to Washington in July 2005 we have had problems.* * * *On Iran we have been urging the UPA government not to go by the US perceptions. The Bush administration raised the nuclear issue regarding Iran just as it declared Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Now with the National Intelligence Estimate of the US itself saying that Iran had stopped any efforts for the weapons programme in 2003, the Indian government should take heed and review its position. Foreign policy issues were also discussed in the UPA-Left Committee along with the nuclear deal. We hope this will resolve some of the problems.* * * *Q. 4: The Left has been supporting the Congress-led coalition for three and half years now and there have been numerous issues over which both sides clashed. Was 2007 the year of greatest confrontation between the Left and the Congress? * *Q. 5: How did the Left deal with an ideologically opposed partner (Congress) for so long? * * * *Ans. 4 & 5: Support to the Congress-led coalition government has been on the basis of a joint commitment to fight communalism and the government implementing the Common Minimum Programme. There have been differences on economic policies, but we have sought to resolve them within the framework of the Common Minimum Programme. It is true that the nuclear issue became a focal point this year. Throughout this period, we have sought to engage the government in discussions on the nuclear deal despite the media hyping it up to be a great clash. The CPI(M) is clear that the main political and ideological threat stems from the communal ideology and politics. It is on that basis that the Party worked out its electoral line in the May 2004 Lok Sabha elections. While extending support to the Congress-led government, we have not hesitated to demarcate our position on policy matters. This is what was decided in our last Party Congress held in April 2005.* * * *Q. 6: Your party's congress comes up in Coimbatore in end March next year. What's the broad agenda? * * * *Ans: The Party Congress works out the Party's political direction for the next three years. The 19th Congress to be held in Coimbatore next March will discuss the main questions facing the country and the people and the alternative policies that we want to project. For this, our Party Central Committee will be drafting a comprehensive political resolution for discussion within the Party in the run-up to the Congress. We will also have to review the work done in the last three years in a self-critical manner. We shall also discuss the perennial question of how to broaden the base of the Party. In this connection the strengthening of the Party organisation will also be discussed.* * * *Q. 7: Although the CPI(M) has held that coalition experiments of the third front variety remain to succeed in India, you surely want to see a non-Congress, non-BJP third alternative some day. Does the UNPA stand a chance of being supported by the Left should it perform well (as one formation) in the next general elections? * * * *Ans: The CPI(M) looks forward to the formation of a third alternative in the country. But this cannot be seen purely as an electoral alliance. We still strive to get a policy-based platform, which can be distinct from that of the BJP and the Congress.* * * *Q. 8: India is 128th on the Human Development Index of the UN. The urban-rural divide has grown and 77 per cent of Indians cannot spend more than Rs 20 a day. Why are we still in this state after 60 years of Independence? * * * *Alongwith the urban-rural divide growing, we have failed to tackle the serious agrarian crisis. There has been a sharp increase in the social and economic inequalities. The growth that we are experiencing is leading to a huge concentration of wealth. India today boasts of producing the most number of billionaires in Asia. The lesson to be learnt after sixty years of independence is that we have to change the whole trajectory of development.* * * *Q. 9: Has the CPI(M)'s image been hurt by events that unfolded in West Bengal since early this year?* * * *Ans: The incidents in Nandigram and the way they have been projected in the media have caused some damage to our party's image. But we are confident that when the full truth about what has happened there since January 2007 comes out, people outside West Bengal will also understand there has been a political combination to convert the issue into a struggle against the Left Front Government. Eventually, people will understand that Nandigram was not a struggle for land.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071226/2cb74f68/attachment.html From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 07:47:34 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 02:17:34 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: References: <456103.26335.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My dear Chanchal,I think we ought to, and I am saying ought to because it is very irritating to read statements that are not supported by facts and figures, but emerge out of what we 'believe' is the truth out there. I am sure that when you want to defend 'Hinduism' by pitting it against 'Islam', then you must be slightly scientific (if that is a term I may use) in making your defense. So let's get down to assess the statements that you make on 'women' in 'Hinduism' versus 'women' in 'Islam'. > You have said: > > > "2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't > try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... > Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and > misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you > think these are the work of terrorist alone... " - please give exact > sources which substantiate the statement that you have made. I also need to > research the figures (and if someone on the list can help me), but there are > 'Muslim' women who are being and have been raped in 'Kashmir' by 'Indian' > 'soldiers' and there have been women in Punjab who have been raped by > 'soldiers', 'policemen' during the strife in Punjab and even now under a > wonked version of patriarchy and a belief that women are sexual creatures to > be devoured. There have also been 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' women raped in > various riots across the country, by variously 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' men and > 'women'. > > "3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house > worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship > also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create > Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... > God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy > Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... > God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain > peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill > them... " - please substantiate your statements here too. In Islam, > Prophet Mohammed had only one daughter named Fatima. He chose her as heir > because he wanted to show to the Arab world at that time that women can also > be inheritors. Islam has not said don't respect women, treat them shoddily > from what I know through my limited knowledge of Islam. But 'Islam' is not > just the Quran and if you think so, then you are under delusion. This is > true for 'Hinduism' which is not all the 'books'. Every 'religion' in > material practice takes on different versions and meanings and also adapts > to culture. So for example, my father and grandfather as much worship Laxmi, > do chopra poojan at the time of the Diwali new year because they are traders > and businessmen and yet, they happen to be what you will call them > 'Muslims'. My father's storehouse during the riots was saved from burning > because the mob saw pictures of Durga, Laxmi and Saraswati in there and > thought the store house belonged to a 'Hindu'. If you fail to recognize that > 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' are not homogenous categories, then you will also rant > this way and 'believe' things to be a certain a way. (his office was burnt > down though) Again I am saying, at the cost of being preachy if you may, > that the hatreds in the world outside come from our own insides. Time we did > a bit of soul searching and walking around for some 'fact' finding. > "God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a humanity..." - I think time to do some fact finding about cow and cow slaughter too rather than be slavish to propaganda. I guess the poor in North India, whether "Hindu" or "Muslim", would out of compulsions of weather and poverty eat beef because mutton is too expensive and the weather demands eating fat to keep the body warm in the extreme cold. > > I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... - then blind > ignorance? prejudice which is not the same as hatred? toxic times of india? > In sisterhood, Zainab > > > Best regards, > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Vedavati Jogi > To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; > reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > oishik, > i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent > manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is > correct and it is in the interest of the nation. > > when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this > language, this shows your level. > vedavati > > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: > oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; > vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that > from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... > trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep > doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be > that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: > Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind > of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to > confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be > excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 > AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks > for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> > I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks > I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also > ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his > sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak > with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee > pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall > also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they > have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by > the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose > kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against > each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their > sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking > me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember > anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For > you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of > Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of > the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be > situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place > while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' > and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time > to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours > who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' > because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me > and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not > going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or > Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> > imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the > people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if > 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with > mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? > And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly > disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that > Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You > might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the > riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a > temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father > could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared > about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no > position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar > is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked > Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained > you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can > anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims > know their rights well but they> > never understand their > responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who > had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you > allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri > structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do > you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an > invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride > for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated > child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular > schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to > govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then > complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... > hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim > women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own > personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are > many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims > and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination > just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which > separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you > have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those > hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> > muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake > of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will > dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try > to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you > want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu > sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat > election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> > he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does > not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to > take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not > hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments > left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed > and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each > day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that > is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment > or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' > who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the > judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed > violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that > doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful > and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, > they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On > Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular > country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise > 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to > stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their > daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting > 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule > after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few > thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> > >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> > like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary > background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left > parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam > khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might > hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he > talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt > muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & > likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking > temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they > create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have > talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> > granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are > facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra > Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be > understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when > Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is > humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist > approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to > their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when > Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything > for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir > or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to > declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver > Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist > and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose > what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they > should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to > be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would > be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because > it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. > we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that > wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle > them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to > rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God > and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not > justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> > start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start > respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join > the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its > meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have > taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to > realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their > month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win > is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message > ----> > From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com >> > To: TaraPrakash < > taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the > forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, > there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have > accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to > understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. > Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the > formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash < > taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu > forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with > Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son > murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the > results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight > between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost > too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be > you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] > gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is > a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a > victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you > gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu > vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your > homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< > http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! > Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK > SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 > Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > 416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-81579 Size: 34397 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071227/488414ad/attachment-0001.bin From mukherjeesipra at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 11:37:40 2007 From: mukherjeesipra at gmail.com (Sipra mukherjee) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 06:07:40 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujarat elections Message-ID: Dear Chanchal and Vedavati, Kindly stop styling yourselves as the self-elected spokespersons for all us hindus. I do NOT agree with what you have to say about India, Hindus or Muslims. Also, that very precise account of "what Hinduism means" given to Oishik was ridiculous to say the least: all Muslim women as our sister,mother, etc so that " when you are abusing us, you must understand that your abuse is bouncing back to your own mother, sister or daughter..." - oh please- if you must spout such rubbish do it in your own name, for your own religion. You, of course, have the right to say whatever you think- even if you don't have the capability for the latter. Just don't drag so many of us other Hindus into it. On 12/26/07, reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote: > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: gujrat election (Vedavati Jogi) > 2. Re: gujrat election (chanchal malviya) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:49:31 +0000 > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > don't you stay in this country? > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: > Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to > African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? > Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each > other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp > who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with > her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who > started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? > Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; < > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > > Sent: Tuesday, > December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find > india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt > karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on > religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal > rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram > temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too > are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not > ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you > know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other > children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped > muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send > your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor > then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept > uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in > various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by > hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are > muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main > stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out > that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in > 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, > will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician > do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the > betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has > been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 > culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these > politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely > secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for > nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of > then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When > you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore > gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin > & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action > against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments > anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, > violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live > in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that > you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity > or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you > have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, > Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a > secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave > reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is > their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 > -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are > facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra > Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be > understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when > Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is > humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist > approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to > their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when > Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything > for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir > or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to > declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver > Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist > and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would > oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and > they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime > is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win > would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular > because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is > secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to > rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God > and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not > justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande > Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I > hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa < > bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my > dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory > is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for > nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 > AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a > defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members > discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for > getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy > with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a > fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost > too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be > you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.Tounsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a > thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > _________________________________________________________________> > Post > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 22:00:26 -0800 (PST) > From: chanchal malviya > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > To: oishiksircar at gmail.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net, Vedavati Jogi > Message-ID: <456103.26335.qm at web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Oishik, > > Who you are I do not know.... But the way you have written to Vedavati is > intolerable... And since you have used your words, now you have hear our > words... and mind it, see our decency in even being vulgar... Read my > reply... > > Let me tell you what Hinduism means - > 1. we consider every women as mother, sister or daughter (other than our > wife)... Hence we consider Muslims women equivalent to our mother... Thus, > when you are abusing us, you must understand that your abuse is bouncing > back to your own mother, sister or daughter... as that is the relation we > own with them all... > > 2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't try > to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... > Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and > misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you > think these are the work of terrorist alone... > > 3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house > worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship > also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create > Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... > God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy > Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... > God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain > peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill > them... God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature > and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the > thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How > will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace > as a humanity... > > I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... I am writing > purely because this is happening... > And let Muslims accept that if Gujarat riot has happened, where both > Hindus and Muslims died... there are these things that are continously > happening.... > > And please please, do not use abuses agains our sisters... This is > provoking and has provoked me to tell all these... > > Best regards, > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Vedavati Jogi > To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; > reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > oishik, > i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent > manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is > correct and it is in the interest of the nation. > > when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this > language, this shows your level. > vedavati > > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: > oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; > vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that > from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... > trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep > doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be > that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: > Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind > of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to > confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be > excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 > AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks > for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> > I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks > I >> have > lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> > Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> > and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me > henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) > sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my > variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain > sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, > there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and > 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each > other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their > sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking > me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember > anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For > you, this 'nation' > may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my > 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at > Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in > 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while > completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and > the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to > time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who > have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' > because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me > and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not > going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or > Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> > imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the > people on this > list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' > were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' > 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is > that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with > this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that > you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want > also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in > Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple > being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not > care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his > livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his > in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me > ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat > descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained > you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can > anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims > know their rights well but they> > never understand their > responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who > had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you > allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri > structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do > you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an > invader. and i don't think> > any > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand > for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor > then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept > uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in > various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by > hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are > muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main > stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out > that > no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 > riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will > dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do > everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the > betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has > been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 > culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these > politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely > secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for > nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of > then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: > Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; > reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does > not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, > hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former > because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't > think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and > torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress > under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are > Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), > you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to > say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots > in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be > aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india > is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> > partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was > here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave > reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they > fooled crores of > bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities > from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir > hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... > all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among > hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi > does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when > person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' > killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is > their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: > bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You > need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a > strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand > that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra > Modi has won it is Hindus who have > won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has > yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. > Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't > you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if > there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and > voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... > Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in > the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is > what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have > intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to > indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them > brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... > the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their > brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the > secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that > 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken > place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what > is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus > believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < > taraprakash at gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the > forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, > there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have > accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also > all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my > dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory > is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for > nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, > 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it > rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS > members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> > communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The > fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins > and evil > loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in > to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: < > reader-list at sarai.net>; > > > Sent: Sunday, December > 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i > hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your > homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< > http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! > Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in > Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 > BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: > an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ > Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 53, Issue 57 > ******************************************* > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-23099 Size: 51617 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071227/38d40b39/attachment-0001.bin From asitredsalute at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 12:08:45 2007 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 06:38:45 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... In-Reply-To: <00ae01c84678$af50ff40$6602a8c0@taraprakash> References: <98f331e00712240054k4d597494g5cf40b5b7c212799@mail.gmail.com> <00ae01c84678$af50ff40$6602a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: dear freinds ithink we should have a proper perspective on fundamentalism and communalism then we can have a stragy to fight it they thrive in backward conciousness ness that is precapitalist premodern consciosness the matirial basis of wchich is fudalism thr indian bourgise failed to carry out the democratic revolution in india so they have failed to establish either liberalism or secularism becuse we dint have a antichurch struggle or a french revolution unlike europe all our ruling class parties thrive on backward conciousness the indian capitalists have struck an alliance with the fudal forces the basic problem with the indian organised left is that they exepct congress a soft communal landlordbougoise party to fight communalism this the biggest delusion communalism cant be extrapolated feom neolibarilsm and fuedalism the congress doesnt have the class character to fight this the battle against communalism can only be fought if we strike against the matirial base wchich gives rise to obscurantist communal and patriarchal consciousness thatis to fight communalism we have to raise a struggle against feudalism patriarchy and neolibarilism and that means we shouls struggle for landreforms wchich will demolish the matirial bais of fuedalism and have a organised struggle against relgios orthodoxy patriarchy etc and that is the mandate of the organised left and the womens movement it is foolish to ride piggyback on congress asit On Dec 25, 2007 3:32 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > We must not give up hope no matter what the electoral efforts result in. > The atmosphere of terror has helped CPI (M) to survive in power in West > Bengal for a long time, Modi might survive for a long time too. But let us > not presume that there is no light at the end of this dark tunnel. From > Naroda Patia to Nandi Gram the state sponsored terrorism has been > successful > to browbeat the voters in to submission, but the struggle must go on. > All dictators have seen their last days, and those in India are not > invincible too. > The faded red powers will soon have to go. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "prakash ray" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 3:54 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] fight will continue... > > > > The BJP has won the assembly elections in Gujarat. The results show > that > > where the impact of communal politics is deep, electoral efforts alone > are > > insufficient to defeat the communal forces. What is required is a > > determined and uncompromising struggle against the communal ideology of > > Hindutva and the capacity to launch sustained struggles of all sections > of > > the people who suffered from the rightwing economic policies of the > Modi > > government. > > > > Prakash > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071227/a63f3a5e/attachment-0001.html From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 19:30:11 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 14:00:11 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Benazir Bhutto Killed In Suicide Attack Message-ID: As of 8:10 a.m. New York time, Dec. 27, 2007: Benazir Bhutto's husband says she's been critically injured after being shot in the neck. 8:25 a.m. New York time: CNN's Kiran Chetry announces that Bhutto has been killed, quoting GEO and other TV sources. 8:35 a.m. New York time: Pakistan state TV confirms her death. Post your comments, news updates, links: http://www.sajaforum.org/2007/12/pak-benazir-bhu.html From subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 23:37:30 2007 From: subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com (Subuhi Jiwani) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 18:07:30 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Where's the critical thinking on the Gujarat election results? In-Reply-To: <200471.39010.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <412148.79667.qm@web51307.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear all, Since the Gujarat elections results were announced, my editor-friend in New York (Bill Weinberg, www.ww4report.com) asked me for an angle from which he/we could approach the news and critically analyse what it means. I turned to the Sarai listserv in the hope that I would find some critical thinking on the subject here. But I have been grossly disappointed by the nature of the conversation. Some of you have celebrated Modi's victory and are eagerly waiting for his entry into national-level politics. Others have bemoaned it and sent us links to Muslim prayers. Still others have compared the wrongdoings of Hindus and Muslims through the course of history. I must also say here that the conversation has been caught up in responding to so-and-so and clarifying so-and-so's -- or the writer's -- points and his/her terminology. Several emails are exchanged between individuals and I've been hearing opinions, responses and counter-responses. But where is the critical thinking? The rigorous analysis? The incisive probing? The disrobing of Modi's seemingly successful hegemonic project in Gujarat? The Gujarati intellectuals who are living in the state? Vivek's note was reassuring though. Let me say, as he does, that Modi's victory is a tragic event for Indian democracy. That "what we have here are two world views that hate each other but are, not coincidentally, symmetrical in their design" (Narayanan). I remember an email that Moinak Biswas had sent to this group, an email that gave a personal and yet critical account of the protest in Kolkata against what happened in Nandigram. It was personal, emotional even, but an alternative kind of reportage. It was a voice that I wouldn't have heard in the mainstream media. It was empirical observation and fact mixed in with personal comment and critical thought. It was refreshing. It was the kind of alternative thinking -- and I don't mean only politically but methodologically too -- that I expect to encounter in this space. One question that I have is: How did Modi manage so effectively to brainwash the Gujarati voters with his promise of development when the Tehelka expose, which once again underlined his protection of murderers and arsonists, had come out just weeks before the election? All these questions only mean that there's a ton of more reading I need to do. Any insights you have on the matter are welcome. Warmly, Subuhi Jiwani Subuhi Jiwani Freelance writer 51, Pyramid next to Dariya Mahal Jayprakash Road Versova Mumbai 400061 98927-66618 (022)2636-6367 ____________________ With nothing can one approach a work of art so little as with critical words: they always come down to more or less happy misunderstandings... A work of art is good if it has sprung from necessity. In this nature of its origin lies the judgement of it: there is no other. Rainer Maria Rilke, in a letter to Franz Xaver Kappus, 1903; from 'Letters to a young poet', 1934 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071227/74a63871/attachment-0001.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 07:39:26 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 02:09:26 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <030901c848f6$b54ce7d0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Nice to be back again on the list. Don't know how I got unsubscribed and my messages started getting bounced. So here is one of them forwarded again. Regards ----- Original Message ----- From: TaraPrakash To: Kshmendra Kaul ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Kshmendra. The first major attack on the democracy in India, I believe, came in the form of the emergency imposed by Indira Gandhi. Of course, there were certain supporters of the emergency and there still are some, but for the first time Congress was voted out of the power in the center. Very soon, however, the elections had to be held again which resulted in congress coming back. It did not mean that people had forgiven Indira Gandhi for the attrocities commited during the emergency. But people did not have any solid alternative. Electoral victory does not always mean that people have given you a clean chit. The party which was alternative to Modi's winning party was no better in the opinion of the voters in Gujarat. Supporting Congress might have been interpreted as a support to the policies of the center government run by the Congress. So may be you should take Modi's victory as rejection of the policies of the central government by the people of Gujarat. Don't forget that the way Congress had organized its election campaign, it was depending on the high command more than the local leaders. But, of course, you are free to have your opinion and believe that people were actually mesmerized by Modi. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 4:17 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash I already accepted your earlier stated clarification that you do not want to homogenise. I am now trying to make sense of what "exactly" you meant. So let me re-state my enquiries: 1. If all the 'forces' named by you ( so-called pseudo secular forces + soft Hindutva forces + major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces) were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government?????? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. Who therefore does Modi represent?????? 2. If a substantial part of the 65% vote (in the Gujarat election) was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (as per Tara Prakash, whether they won or lost), then wouldnt a logical deduction from Tara Prakash's premise be that those participating voters were "evil" too?????? These are questions. Of course you can say "I said what I said and I do not care what meanings are conveyed or whether anything meaningful is conveyed at all; I said what I said" Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: If this is how you understand the message, let this be the import of my message. I of course do not want to homogenize in any circumstance. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Your words were very clear and did not need any interpretation by me. Maybe it was an unfortunate turn of phrase and words by you. In any case, now, you have clarified that you did not mean that all Hindus are evil. You have again said some interesting things. For one: """""" Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him."""" If all the 'forces' named by you were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. AND you go on to say: """"" I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil.""""" Gujarat had a 65% voter turn-out. That is quite a high percentage for any part of the world. If a substantial part of this 65% vote was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (whether they won or lost), then those participating voters would be "evil" too. So, in the "Gujarat according to Tara Prakash" it was 'mainly' the 'evil' contesting and 'mainly' the 'evil' voting. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Dear Kshmendra. An intriguing interpretation of my message. I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did. I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus. Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected. I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives. It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? Itâ?Ts cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071228/8ce92b6a/attachment.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 07:40:21 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 02:10:21 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <031201c848f6$d299ab20$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Okay. if it comes to being precise and being to the point, (while missing the point), in your fashion. here are the answers to your questions. 1. what is meant by 'your beloved' country? It means the country that you claim you love. 2. don't you stay in this country? No, physically not. 3. is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? Yes. 4. are muslims 'bigger' than country? Every human life is bigger (more important) than any country. So the answer in one word is yes. Hope that helps ----- Original Message ----- From: Vedavati Jogi To: TaraPrakash Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 12:48 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election what is meant by 'your beloved' country? don't you stay in this country? is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? are muslims 'bigger' than country? > From: taraprakash at gmail.com > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500 > > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai. > On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away? > Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > my dear zainab, > > > > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes. > > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station? > > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus? > > > > id you reciprocate? > > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood? > > > > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..! > > > > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? > > > > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible. > > > > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! > > > > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building. > > > > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too. > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, > > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned. > > In peace, > > Zainab (gujju ben) > > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati > > > > > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it.. > > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is humanity that has won.. > > > > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion... > > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks... > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... > > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... > > > > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir.. > > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... > > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... > > > > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place... > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month.... > > > > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win... > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071228/823c4561/attachment.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 07:40:48 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 02:10:48 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <031701c848f6$e7c98ec0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> > Even though I feel like agreeing with you, (not completely), I must state > that you are eluding the context. I was replying to someone who reduces > politics, perhaps everything in India, in to Hindu/ Muslim binarity. I was > just suggesting that if being uncomfortable with the country and leaving > it for some other country were related, Hindus are more at fault. I hate > homogenizing, but what if the person you are responding to does not > understand any other language! Unfortunately, you too in your mail used > the political binary opposition between, what can be roughly called, left > and right of the Indian political system. > Well, I don't have to mention the dangers of binary opposition which are > obviously clear to this profound lisst. > But I feel like quoting Kabir and hee is so relevant today and surely will > remain so in the future. > Chalti chakki dekh ke > Diya Kabira roy > Do patan ke bich mein > Sabut bacha na koy. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "TaraPrakash" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:01 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > >> Hi, >> >> Taraprakash, >> be whereevr you are comfortable, but think a moment, with kickbacks >> haunting the leaders, that too comrade leaders from salim group of >> Indonesia,subscription payers as worker comrades leaving for better >> leaders who do not live on their subscriptions, it is time for the >> politburo to be introspect whether they are with idealogy of equity and >> justice as enunciated by Karl marx or have they lost them.Even the fake >> ration cards and ids given to refugees of bangaldesh developed as vote >> banks have ubderstood the game plan of left parties and the fort is >> crumbling as the intellectuals who all along supported the intelligent in >> left are also aghast at the brutal means used to suppress dissent in the >> ranks using cadres for the rape and killing.Left parties which had >> dedicated cadres to the idealogy are today dedicated to politburo goons >> and the very reason the Communist party of India split into CPM, CPI and >> Marxist-leninist parties is well known as the ego clash of leaders to be >> in the loot of subscription of toiling comrade workers. As to vaghela or >> Uma or all those who leave for greener pastures, it is no different in >> left parties also, as the leader is foisted by a bunch of motley crowd >> going by the name of politburo. So, be aware of what your thoughts are >> leading to as the very idealogy is now hijacked by these goons in >> politburo of all the different factions of LEFT. >> Regards. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: TaraPrakash >> Date: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:02 pm >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election >> To: Vedavati Jogi , bawazainab79 at gmail.com, >> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com, reader-list at sarai.net >> >>> Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West >>> Indese, >>> European countries, North American countries, South East Asian >>> countries and >>> so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your >>> beloved >>> country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already >>> abroad at the >>> moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity >>> comes >>> your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion >>> they are? >>> Bharat mata ki jai. >>> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when >>> they were >>> fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che >>> saru che >>> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of >>> the day and >>> Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter >>> of Shiv >>> Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic >>> sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non >>> marathas to leave >>> Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away? >>> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are >>> themselves divided >>> and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I >>> want to >>> join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in >>> to power >>> in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party >>> or Advani >>> who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been >>> dropping hints >>> that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP >>> being >>> voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna >>> secular? The >>> leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports >>> Modi? Vaghela? >>> Mehta? Maya Vati? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Vedavati Jogi" >>> To: ; ; >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election >>> >>> >>> > >>> > my dear zainab, >>> > >>> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good >>> place to live >>> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. >>> > >>> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but >>> they >>> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand >>> their own >>> > mistakes. >>> > >>> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at >>> godhra >>> > station? >>> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims >>> were >>> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- >>> was is >>> > not a magnonimity shown by hindus? >>> > >>> > id you reciprocate? >>> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the >>> place where >>> > babri structure once stood? >>> > >>> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look >>> upon babar >>> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't >>> think any >>> > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. >>> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot >>> compete with >>> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover >>> nobody has >>> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run >>> schools.still you >>> > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't >>> get jobs >>> > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence >>> demand >>> > for reservations..! >>> > >>> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is >>> because of >>> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code? >>> > >>> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in >>> india who >>> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced >>> any >>> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this >>> 'false >>> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it >>> if >>> > possible. >>> > >>> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken >>> against >>> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in >>> future also >>> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against >>> hindu >>> > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. >>> why >>> > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for >>> the sake of >>> > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody >>> will dare >>> > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics! >>> > >>> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & >>> seculars, instead >>> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not >>> provoked, join >>> > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building. >>> > >>> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to >>> care for >>> > hindu sentiments too. >>> > >>> > vedavati >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: >>> bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: >>> > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat >>> electionCC: >>> > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati, >>> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks >>> about '5 >>> > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate >>> > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to >>> take stern >>> > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt >>> muslim >>> > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left >>> after >>> > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and >>> when you >>> > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you >>> are >>> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is >>> your >>> > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment >>> or voice >>> > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who >>> > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the >>> judiciary >>> > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed >>> violences >>> > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that >>> doing so >>> > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful >>> and >>> > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no >>> sentiments, they >>> > are assumed to be aligned. >>> > In peace, >>> > Zainab (gujju ben) >>> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >>> > >>> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a >>> secular country >>> > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise >>> 99% >>> > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared >>> to stay >>> > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their >>> daily >>> > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting >>> 'secularism'. >>> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after >>> 1947. they >>> > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of >>> seats they >>> > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many >>> towering >>> > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, >>> bismilla >>> > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad >>> ali and many >>> > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very >>> very >>> > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about >>> > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme >>> hai' , >>> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote >>> bank >>> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt >>> muslim >>> > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks >>> about '5 >>> > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate >>> > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to >>> take stern >>> > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt >>> muslim >>> > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & >>> likes has >>> > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking >>> temples & >>> > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they >>> create hue & >>> > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a >>> lot about >>> > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais >>> have proved >>> > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it >>> is their >>> > victory! vedavati >>> > >>> > >>> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: >>> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat >>> electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: >>> > vrjogi at hotmail.com >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Hi, >>> > >>> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are >>> facing the >>> > problem of communalism on their own motherland.. >>> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say >>> Hindu, it is >>> > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in >>> it..> So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. >>> in other words, >>> > it is humanity that has won.. >>> > >>> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims >>> gather in big >>> > mass when there is anything related to their religion... >>> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get >>> killed in >>> > Terrorist attacks... >>> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever >>> said a word >>> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)... >>> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are >>> Muslims >>> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some >>> roadshow to make >>> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different >>> set of >>> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net >>> that all >>> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever >>> Muslims >>> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not >>> religion.... >>> > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win... >>> > >>> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains >>> majority of >>> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know >>> West Bengal >>> > becoming another Kashmir.. >>> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict >>> law to >>> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence... >>> > >>> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring >>> Quran as >>> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of >>> same God >>> > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is >>> happening >>> > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in >>> the nation >>> > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what >>> they used >>> > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day >>> Muslim will >>> > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start >>> respecting >>> > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the >>> festivals >>> > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning.... >>> > >>> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken >>> place, had >>> > Godhra would not have taken place... >>> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what >>> is expected >>> > from their month.... >>> > >>> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is >>> Hindus >>> > win... >>> > >>> > Jai Hind, >>> > >>> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa >>> To: >>> > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; >>> Vedavati >>> > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 >>> 8:34:38 >>> > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks >>> for the >>> > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's >>> victory >>> > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, >>> there are >>> > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave >>> accepted that >>> > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot >>> Hindus.I >>> > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to >>> understand your >>> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you >>> suggesting >>> > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of >>> > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab >>> (confused gujju >>> > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash >>> wrote:> >>> > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. >>> Ask the > >>> > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi >>> "Brahmin ka> >>> > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu >>> terrorist Advani> >>> > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or >>> pseudo >>> > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight >>> in Gujarat >>> > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, >>> Hindus have> >>> > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil >>> loses. > May >>> > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your >>> mouth> >>> > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" >>> < >>> > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; >>> > >>> > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader- >>> list] gujrat >>> > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for >>> > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. >>> and i hope >>> > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't >>> always >>> > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the >>> world that >>> > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > >>> vedavati> >> >>> > >> > >>> _________________________________________________________________> > >>> > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > >>> > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > >>> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an >>> open >>> > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & >>> Collaborations > > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List >>> archive: < >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> >>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >>> discussion >>> > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >>> subscribe: >>> > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe >>> in the >>> > subject header.> To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List >>> archive: >>> > >> list/>_________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>> city.Critiques & >>> > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list- >>> request at sarai.net >>> > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List >>> archive: < >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> > >>> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >>> > >>> > >>> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! >>> > _________________________________________________________________ >>> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in >>> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>> list >>> List archive: >> >> > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 15:53:14 2007 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 10:23:14 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <796663.78987.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All, Why is this happening again and again? I think SARAI itself confused whether it is moderated or administered. If it is moderated then the contents of the every mail should be read and censored then only mail should be published. There should be impartiality in this. If it is administered it is something different again. Regards, dhatri. Vedavati Jogi wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_body.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} see dhatri, my mails need moderator's approval but oshik, arnav's mails don't require this type of approval. great! isn't it. i think we now have to change the definition of 'vulgarity' also. > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > From: reader-list-bounces at mail.sarai.net > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:47:53 +0530 > > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > The reason it is being held: > > Post by non-member to a members-only list > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/d25f5f515de09f04f676659df32b5b09b0a146cc > --------------------------------- Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! --------------------------------- Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071228/2d1dd104/attachment-0001.html From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 16:12:59 2007 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 10:42:59 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: <796663.78987.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <796663.78987.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990712280242l2fbdb15p51d1f48bd06c8906@mail.gmail.com> Hi, If you read the message response, it explains why the problem is happening. "Post by non-member to a members-only list" - in short, just ask Vedavati to subscribe with that email ID. Rgds, Partha .................... On Dec 28, 2007 3:52 PM, we wi wrote: > Dear All, > > Why is this happening again and again? I think SARAI itself confused > whether it is moderated or administered. If it is moderated then the > contents of the every mail should be read and censored then only mail should > be published. There should be impartiality in this. If it is administered > it is something different again. > > > Regards, > dhatri. > > *Vedavati Jogi * wrote: > > > > see dhatri, > > my mails need moderator's approval but oshik, arnav's mails don't require > this type of approval. > > great! isn't it. > i think we now have to change the definition of 'vulgarity' also. > > > > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > > From: reader-list-bounces at mail.sarai.net > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:47:53 +0530 > > > > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > > > RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > > > The reason it is being held: > > > > Post by non-member to a members-only list > > > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/d25f5f515de09f04f676659df32b5b09b0a146cc > > > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071228/5e0a5947/attachment-0001.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 16:32:02 2007 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:02:02 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: <796663.78987.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <796663.78987.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70712280301n2e767cbdraff600486c00cf4c@mail.gmail.com> This is happening to me since more than 8 weeks ! Selective Moderation ..... On 12/28/07, we wi wrote: > > Dear All, > > Why is this happening again and again? I think SARAI itself confused > whether it is moderated or administered. If it is moderated then the > contents of the every mail should be read and censored then only mail should > be published. There should be impartiality in this. If it is administered > it is something different again. > > > Regards, > dhatri. > > *Vedavati Jogi * wrote: > > > > see dhatri, > > my mails need moderator's approval but oshik, arnav's mails don't require > this type of approval. > > great! isn't it. > i think we now have to change the definition of 'vulgarity' also. > > > > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > > From: reader-list-bounces at mail.sarai.net > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:47:53 +0530 > > > > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > > > RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > > > The reason it is being held: > > > > Post by non-member to a members-only list > > > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/d25f5f515de09f04f676659df32b5b09b0a146cc > > > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > ------------------------------ > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071228/10361dce/attachment-0001.html From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 19:32:03 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 14:02:03 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Assassins, A South Asia Story Message-ID: Since 1971, Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan) has framed much of its political reality in opposition to the idea of Pakistan. Some things I have heard over the years: "We will never allow Bangladesh to become Pakistan", "Why did we bother leaving Pakistan if we are going down the Islamic path as well?", "Thank god we're not with Pakistan", etc. The scars of the 1971 genocide run deep. Periodically wounds flare up, such as when Islamist groups with ties to death squads in 1971 claim it was "civil war" not "genocide" http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/category/jamaat-e-islami/ My khalato bon (cousin) has direct memories of 1971 and even refuses to eat dried fruit or nuts if she discovers it was imported from Pakistan. She once said to me "Pakistan, ota ekta desh holo naki?" (Pakistan, is that even a country?). This reminds me of the stories of post-WWII Jewish consumers who refused to buy Volkswagen/Mercedes cars. My parents (especially my mother) to this date refuse to visit Pakistan (they were posted there in the 60s). There is precious little comfort from such nationalist defenses. Yes we are no longer part of Pakistan, but it would not take much to tip the scale. It is only geography (non-adjacency to Afghanistan, no stake in Kashmir) that rescued us from Indo-Pak nuclear brinkmanship and American-Soviet pawn moves. Tariq Ali once wrote that Pakistan was the "used condom" from the Afghan war that America had fished out of the toilet after 9/11. With yesterday's assassination of Benazir, again the Pakistan shadow over Bangladesh. Palpable jitters on the Dhaka streets. How long before Bangladesh gets engulfed by similar syndromes? Meanwhile, two blog entries.. Assassins, A South Asia Story http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/12/28/assassins/ Assassination Alley http://rumiahmed.wordpress.com/2007/12/27/assassination/ From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 22:11:26 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 16:41:26 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Idol worship References: <398121.18611.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008e01c84970$8a1536b0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Dear Chanchal. Let me try to answer all the points raised in your mail. I will try to be brief with my answers. 1. Do you follow everything of Kabir... No. I don't have to. Kabir just was used to tell you that there are alternative schools of Hindu philosophy. 2. Kabir said lots of things... Do you know all... No. But I know most of them. 3. Kabir probably meant: God can be achieved only through purity of heart and mind... But Kabir didn't say anywhere: How can you achieve that purity of mind and heart... Well, he did not say that. But if he meant that, then it would be the guru who would lead one to God. Guru Govind dou khare Ka ke laagoon paay, Balihari Guru aapne Govind diya milaay. It roughly means that Guru needs to be worshipped more than God, as it is Guru who leads one to God. (Of course this is Kabir's view, I see no reason to find God. If God cares anything, let him find me.) 4. Worship in Hinduism is a process of gaining respect, regard and love. Every Hindu knows that Idol will not move or do anything, yet they worship - and there is lies depth to it... And it is this process that has made HIndus the most tolerant religion of the world.... Some of the saints/teachers most respected by the learned Hindus never accept Hinduism as a religion. It is more a way of life; more of a philosophy. 5. Had they been worshipping like Muslims and Christians.. they would also have behaved like them... Now how do Hindus behave which is different from other religions? We Hindus (sorry I have been declared fake) so you hindus have tried your utmost to follow the Western masters in all their manners. (Khaki knickers chod ke Bolo Vande mataram.) 6. It seems to me that you are not a Hindu, and you are using a fake name.. or may be you are converted and I do not know your sirname... Even if I tell you my surname, why can't that be a faked one? But I have read many Hindu scriptures and know that idol worship is for the people with weaker intellect. I don't like to discuss Gyan Marg with the people who can't understand it. ----- Original Message ---- From: TaraPrakash To: chanchal malviya ; reader-list at sarai.net Cc: sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:12:13 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Idol worship Kabir said and I do really not want to use my words to answer this mail. Patthar pooje hari mile To mein poojoon pahar Ta te to chaki bhali Jo pis khae sansaar. Here perhaps Kabir is telling a better use of a stone than being worshipped. In Kabir's time all the mills were made with stone. What he roughly says is If one gets God by worshiping a stone I want to worship a mountain (perhaps in search of a bigger God) A mill is better than that which feeds the world by grinding the grain. ----- Original Message ----- From: "chanchal malviya" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:52 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Idol worship > For those who have advocated Idolatory as abuse to God - let them show One > religion and one society in the world who do not worship Idols and are > peaceful... > > Quick questions: > 1. What are words describing Allah? Only literates can read those words. > Blind can hear those words. Blind and Deaf can neither read nor hear those > words - what about those Muslims. > 2. Do you believe that a picture (image) is worth more than 1000 words? > What would you prefer to worship - words or images. Which is more > impacting - picture or words? > > These questions might seem to be simple, but they are not. let me put some > analysis for you... > > 1. Hindus worship Ideals and not Idols. Ask the most idiot of all Hindus, > would the stone move or talk for you and he will so 'No'. But if you ask > the same Hindu, what will your stone do if I break it, and he will reply > what will your Allah or Christ do it, if I abuse him. The answers are same > on both side, the effect is same. But one question is sure to think in > depth - why do Hindus worship Idols then when all of them knows that it > cannot move or talk? And answer is so simple - Can Allah or Christ move or > talk? You find Allah and Christ in your words, we find our God in Idols. > How beautiful your words are you know, but we know our Idols are the most > beautiful creations of some hands. > > 2. Hindus worshipping Idols while knowing that it will not move or talk > signifies that Hindus are worshipping the Immaterial in relation to > Material (Both of which constitutes the world). But Islam or Christian > think that God is an entity that sits somewhere in 7th world and watches > helplessly on us. > > 3. Names like Allah or Christ signifies the identity of God as an entity. > > 4. God as One is also in Hinduism, but not illogical to say that he is > material bounded by smallest finite number 'One'. Hindus believe that all > manifestations and energies of manifestations when summed up results in > that 'One' which has formed everything and which is the formation too. > Thus the 'One' is explained. > > 5. Human minds are materialistic. Senses requires material to sense and > understand things. Hence, to understand and feel God, words, images, > emotions, everthing in Hinduism has a place. > > 6. Love, respect and regard is the pillars of all Hindu worship (Unlike > all other religions, where they worship religion and force the same on > others). > > 7. Deities in Hindus are natural powers - they were not humans. They are > used as metaphors to explain the natural science. Thus, story of Brahma, > Vishnu and others in Quran doesn't mean that they had physical existence - > they are the icons to relate to natural powers. For example, Jyotir Lingam > means Shiv - The God of Light - Jyoti meaning light and Lingam in sanskrit > meaning Symbol. Thus shiva is a symbol of light, light being the highest > form of energy - and hence Shiva is called as Mahadeva. > > 8. Idol worhship is a social arrangement which absorbs all level of > thinking to become peaceful in nature. It is because, Hindus seem to be > worshipping Idols, but actually they do not worship Idols - they worship > Ideals. Hence, when one worships Lord Rama, he doesn't worship Rama as > God, he worships the best of God in Rama. Islam says God is most > benevolent, the most kind... but fails to categorize this most and ends up > in saying that he is an entity. Hinduism goes far ahead from this to say > that God is within us too, with all his qualities - it is up to us to > realize the best of him - humans fail to do, but the most powerful of all > natural creations does this - Lord Rama and Krishna did this - and hence > the best of God is what is worshipped. > > Nothing in Hinduism is illogical. Everything has a scientific and natural > research of thousands of years behind it. It is like, we do not need to > know how to build a computer and hence we are simply taught the softwares. > So, a Hindus need not know what is Saraswati in natural form, but are > taught to relate her with the ability to study - the ability being the > power of nature that helps in building knowledge. And hence, Hindus > worship Saraswati and making a beautiful idol is to ensure that everyone > has the love and respect towards 'Vidya'. > > How will Muslims and Christians understand this - when their whole social > arrangement is to kill. A child grows with a goat with love and is then > taught to kill it barbarously with his hand. Anyone going against is > declared Kafir and anything outside the hardlined boundary is thought as > impure. > > If Jesus became God by forgiving his enemies, let the world start > worshipping 1 billion Jesus - for Hindus have been forgiving even greater > barbarism from past 1000 years. > > Jai Hind, > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071228/e991ab65/attachment-0001.html From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 12:10:25 2007 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 06:40:25 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-II In-Reply-To: <13df7c120712252143v16d039f1p7aaaa2919099d1e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <13df7c120712252143v16d039f1p7aaaa2919099d1e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0712282240p51f7ec9chb73592d50fe76ac8@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, This is a very interesting discussion underway. In particular it allows us to open out some questions regarding two troubling concepts which at least I have been wrestling with for some time. These being the question of tolerance and prosyletizing. In many many conversations now there has been an insistence on the "tolerant" nature of Hinduism in comparison to Islam's "intolerance" by gesturing towards Hinduism's "acceptance" of other faiths because it does not insist on, in fact within the doctrine itself there is no provision for, conversion to Hinduism. This apparent liberal broad-mindedness of the Hindu religion is then contrasted with the supposed intolerance of Islam where the unbelievers are exhorted to convert to the one true religion or perish etc etc. I wish to make only a small intervention, because a deep category confusion is underway here in my opinion. Only a faith such as Islam in which is premised on absolute social equality can even make a claim as inclusionary as an equal share in the brotherhood of god. And in that regard Islam is a radicalising force and sees itself as such. It asks that everyone, all of society, be similarly radicalised. You can agree or disagree with the terms of this conversion, with the form of life it asks you lead and so on, but you cannot discount the deeply democratic and egalitarian impulse that informs it. In contrast, Brahmanical Hinduism begins from exactly the opposite premise - that of a fundamental social inequality, of hierarchy. Brahmanical Hinduism's rejection of conversion is motivated by an exclusionary impulse. How can it ask everyone to be Hindu when it deems most people: dalits, women, tribals to name just a few categories - unworthy, unfit and unclean? And so Brahmanical Hinduism is an inherently heirarchical religion. Therefore when we hail Brahmanical Hinduisim for its liberal impulses, we must proceed with caution for the simple reason that we are getting the wrong end of the stick: it is not "liberality" and "tolerance" that motivate Brahmanical Hinduism, but the opposite. regards Aarti -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071229/2e1b5a8d/attachment-0001.html From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 22:04:19 2007 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?=ED=C7=D3=D1_~_yasir_?=) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:34:19 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] sari reader-list archive in a mess Message-ID: <5af37bb0712290834w2f9cad88r48eab27d42dbe1ca@mail.gmail.com> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-December/date.html best wishes. y From pkray11 at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 23:37:17 2007 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:07:17 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] a story on Dr Binayak Sen Message-ID: <98f331e00712291007m6e943f89v40fdf1a4abda681d@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I came across a heart-touching story on Dr Binayak Sen. Read the story and tell others too. http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=e300b450-c080-431f-b339-cc7ab17594d4&&Headline=Terrorist+or+tireless+doctor%3f regards, Prakash -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071229/ba3ed77a/attachment-0001.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 00:44:44 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:14:44 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Reversal of Fortune Message-ID: <005801c84a4f$281adca0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Hi all. here is an article from Wall Street Journal which discusses an issue which is sooner or later going to be a hot topic of discussion in the Indian media. Caste politics seems to be taking a new turn. A couple of years ago, RSS issued a statement that only a Dalit woman can unite the Hindus of India. And that "Dalit woman" came to power in U.P. with the slogan "Brahmin shankh bajaaega Haathi barhta jaaega." (Brahmin will blow the conch and the elephant (election symbol of BSP) will keep marching on.) Reversal of Fortune Isolates India's Brahmins. By Eric Bellman. CHENNAI, India -- Brahmins, as Hinduism's priestly and scholarly caste, have traditionally occupied a place of privilege in India. Brahmins have been advisers to Maharajas, Mughals and military rulers. Under British rule, they served as administrators, a position they kept after Indian independence in 1947. But in today's India, high-caste privileges are dwindling, and with the government giving extensive preferences to the lower-caste majority, many Brahmins are feeling left out of the economy's rapid expansion. R. Parameswaran has suffered that reversal of fortune. The 29-year-old starts every day with a prayer to the Hindu god Shiva, marking his forehead with red and white powder to let the world know he is a Brahmin. In his home village, his caste's mark brought him respect, but since he moved to Chennai, a sprawling high-tech city in the southern state of Tamil Nadu, in the late 1990s, he has found his status a liability. In Tamil Nadu, nearly 70% of government jobs and public-college slots are reserved for people from lower castes and other historically disadvantaged groups. Although he says he graduated near the top of his high-school class and had strong test scores, Mr. Parameswaran couldn't get into any of the state engineering colleges. His family had to borrow from friends to send him to a second-rate private college. He now teaches English at a small vocational school. On a salary of $100 a month, Mr. Parameswaran can't afford an apartment, so he sleeps in the classroom at night. I am suffering," says the intense young man, using the exaggerated enunciation of an English teacher. Unfortunately, I was born as a Brahmin. Although the role of Brahmins has never been synonymous with accumulating wealth, many are affluent enough to educate their children in the better private schools. On average, members of the caste, who make up about 5% of India's population of 1.1 billion, are better educated and better paid than the rest of Indian people. The term Brahmin has come to be used globally to describe those at the top of the heap with an attitude to match, as in Boston Brahmins. Yet close to half of Brahmin households earn less than $100 a month, according to the Center for a Study of Developing Societies, a New Delhi think tank. For these Brahmins, the array of state-mandated preferences for other groups present a high hurdle. The reverse discrimination is rooted in Indian history and politics. For decades, Brahmins were resented for their dominance of the government, economy and culture. Indeed, political parties in Tamil Nadu sprang from anti-Brahmin feelings. If you see a Brahmin and a snake, kill the Brahmin first" was an old slogan. A national constitution adopted in 1950 reserved more than 20% of government jobs for lower castes. In 1990, an additional 27% were set aside for what were called "other backward castes. Some states set higher quotas, including Tamil Nadu, which reserves 69% of government jobs for lower castes and other needy groups. The ugliest Brahmin bashing in India ended years ago, but Mr. Parameswaran says that in college in the late 1990s, he still faced ridicule as a Brahmin. He says one student tried to break his sacred thread, a simple circle of twine Brahmins wear under their clothes. After college, he had an internship in a state-owned chemical company, but says he was told he wouldn't be hired, as there were openings only for lower-caste applicants. He says he took exams to join national railways, state banks and other government agencies, such as the immigration department, but found most posts closed to all Brahmins except the most brilliant. From his makeshift home where he sleeps with a blanket on a desk most nights, Mr. Parameswaran still applies for government jobs. He pulls out his latest application form and shows a visitor where he always gets stuck: the three squares where he has to write the abbreviation indicating his caste. I want government work," he says, shaking the application, "but they have no jobs for Brahmins. Mr. Parameswaran has tried to adapt to the lessening of caste distinctions taking place in many parts of India today, especially in cities. The changes are less in villages such as the one where he grew up some 200 miles away. There, his grandfather, who is 101 years old, still won't wear Western clothes and won't eat outside of his home for fear of mixing with lower castes. Mr. Parameswaran's father has a job with the state telephone company and is more liberal. He dresses in shirts and pants, doesn't mind eating at restaurants and doesn't expect lower-caste neighbors to take off their sandals in his presence. Mr. Parameswaran has had good friends from lower castes all his life, many of whom have used their communities to grab good government jobs, he says. He won't eat meat but has no qualms sharing a meal with people of any caste or creed. His 22-year-old sister, R. Dharmambal, is even more liberal, he says. She will take non-vegetarian food," he exclaims, using the common Indian term for eating meat. Mr. Parameswaran often visits the sister in the Brahmin enclave of Mylapore. On a recent day there, dozens of shirtless priests in the traditional Brahmin uniform of a white dhoti and partially shaved head were standing around at a Hindu-scriptures school, hoping for work. For as little as 100 rupees, about $2.50, they offered to perform complicated rituals and blessings required when any Hindu has a baby, a wedding or a new home. My sons can't support me, so I have to survive by performing Hindu rituals," says K. Narayana, an 81-year-old scholar. If we had been from another community, we would have had better opportunities. Nearby stands the Kapaleeshwara Temple, with towering gates of colorful carvings from Hindu mythology. It is one of the most important places for worship for followers of Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction. The temple used to be surrounded by rows of simple single-story homes, each with its own courtyard and well so the Brahmin families wouldn't have to share water with other castes. Most houses have been replaced by concrete apartment blocks and small stores. At the temple's back gate, Brahmins beg for spare change or look for odd jobs as cooks or even bearers of bodies to funeral pyres, normally a lower-caste pursuit. I see so many Brahmins begging" in Mylapore, Mr. Parameswaran says. It's very difficult to see. It makes me totally upset. Tariq Engineer contributed to this article.Write to Eric Bellman at eric.bellman at awsj.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071229/30b0e8b6/attachment-0001.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 01:46:26 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 20:16:26 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] UNTOUCHABLEKillings Show Caste System Thrives Message-ID: <00ed01c84a57$cb5cdcd0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> UNTOUCHABLEKillings Show Caste System Thrives. Bettering Themselves, Indian Farm Family Ignited the Fury of Neighbors. By Yaroslav Trofimov. KHAIRLANJI, India -- Not long ago, the Bhotmange family was a showcase of how Dalits, the former "untouchables" at the bottom of India's caste ladder, are improving their lot amid the nation's economic boom. Forgoing his ancestral occupation of handling rotting cow carcasses, Bhaiyalal Bhotmange set up a tiny wheat and rice farm in this village. The income enabled him to buy a cellphone and educate his three children. His 17-year-old daughter learned English, a rarity here. A son studied computers and enrolled at a local college. I knew that only through education can we uplift our status," Mr. Bhotmange says. This was my dream. Last year, the dream ended. A mob of higher-caste neighbors, angered by the family's refusal to accept their destiny as the lowliest of the low, attacked their home. Mr. Bhotmange's wife and children were dragged out and killed, their bodies dumped in a canal. Mr. Bhotmange, who had managed to flee, is now a refugee in a nearby city, afraid to venture into Khairlanji. The killings and their fallout show how the rising aspirations of India's most downtrodden can exacerbate age-old social tensions. A prolonged economic boom has improved the lot of millions of the nation's poorest, including Dalits. Still, despite a ban on "untouchability" and decades of affirmative-action aid to Dalits, the rigid stratification imposed by the Hindu caste system is proving resistant to change, sometimes violently so. In parts of rural India in particular, the upward mobility of some is causing tension along caste fault lines. The actual practice of caste is strengthening, and the [Dalits] are still the main victims," says Buta Singh, a minister-rank official who heads a federal commission on Dalit issues. The killings at Khairlanji ignited weeks of Dalit rioting that further deepened the divide. Following the protests, India's federal government took over the investigation late last year. It is only now, as a murder trial moves ahead, that a full picture of what happened here on a rainy fall afternoon is beginning to emerge. A small-boned man with a creased face, Mr. Bhotmange moved to Khairlanji from a nearby village almost 20 years ago. He claimed a two-hectare plot that belonged to his relatives and that, until then, was illegally farmed by higher-caste villagers. Most of the 800 people in this remote village, set on a dirt road amid palms and tamarind trees, hail from the farmer and trader castes known as "kunbi" and "kalar. Pegged below Hindu noble castes such as the priestly Brahmins and the Kshatriya rulers and warriors, they are considered "backward" by the government and entitled to affirmative-action benefits. Their standing, however, is well above that of the Dalits, who are viewed as unclean by the Hindu tradition and who have been confined for millennia to the most demeaning of occupations. Mr. Bhotmange's family, one of only three Dalit households in Khairlanji, was made unwelcome from the start, he says. The village council refused to recognize him as a resident and barred him from building a permanent home. His hut at the village edge is made of bricks piled atop each other without mortar. Villagers, he says, usually addressed him as "mahar," a caste slur meaning carcass handler. I would tell them, 'Please don't call me this way, I have a proper name,' " Mr. Bhotmange says. The village chief, Hasan Dhande, says Dalits are treated with respect here. Mr. Bhotmange's little farm was a good earner, bringing in almost $2,000 a year, a hefty sum in this area. His wife, Surekha, earned some more by rolling homemade Indian cigarettes. This success and the children's schooling aroused envy from higher-caste neighbors, he says: "I earned more from my five acres than they did from 10-acre farms, and they were jealous. They couldn't forgive me. Worse, his plot lay on the way to some other villagers' holdings. Instead of using a roundabout access road, many drove their tractors and bullock carts straight through his property, and through his crops. He lodged several complaints with the police but got no help. As the dispute escalated, Mr. Bhotmange finally asked a relative of his wife from a nearby village to intervene. The relative, Siddhartha Gajbhiye, embodied Khairlanji villagers' worst fears about Dalits upending India's age-old social order. A bulky man with thick, meaty fingers, Mr. Gajbhiye had become one of the wealthier local figures, accumulating 19 hectares and even employing some higher-caste villagers. He was the "patil," or auxiliary policeman, responsible for settling small disputes in his own village. Riding his motorcycle into Khairlanji, Mr. Gajbhiye became a frequent visitor to the Bhotmanges, checking on them and arguing with villagers on their behalf. I never wanted any quarrel," he says. But what the other villagers wanted from the beginning was to drive them out and to take over their land. Things came to a head on Sept. 3, 2006. As Mr. Gajbhiye passed through Khairlanji that evening, he was attacked by several men armed with thick bamboo sticks used as cattle prods. The reason is in dispute. Some villagers testified at the murder trial it was retribution for his slapping one of them during an argument over unpaid wages. Mr. Gajbhiye says there was no provocation and that the attackers hurled caste insults and said it was because of him "that Bhotmange has become so arrogant. Hearing the commotion, Mr. Bhotmange's daughter and wife ran out and confronted the attackers, using the family cellphone to call Mr. Gajbhiye's brother for help. Two weeks later, out of the hospital, Mr. Gajbhiye filed a complaint against the villagers under the Scheduled Caste Prevention of Atrocities Act, which prohibits bail for those accused of crimes against the Dalits. The local police station, however, registered the incident as simple assault. The officer in charge is now on trial for allegedly taking a bribe to do so. According to witnesses in the murder case, higher-caste villagers told Mr. Bhotmange's wife, Surekha, that the men who beat up Mr. Gajbhiye had the backing of police and politicians, and warned her against testifying. She defied the threats. The morning of Sept. 29, 2006, 13 village men named by her and her daughter were arrested and taken to court. All were quickly freed on bail. As they set out for home in a tractor-drawn cart, one of them called a Maharashtra state legislator representing a nearby district, Madhukar Kukde. Mr. Kukde says he was told the villagers believed Mr. Gajbhiye was organizing a gang who would raid the village to avenge his beating. Mr. Gajbhiye says he had no such plan. By the time the released villagers reached Khairlanji, they were ready for battle. Unable to find Mr. Gajbhiye, they turned their fury on the Bhotmanges, whose testimony had caused their arrest. The rampage began just as Mr. Bhotmange returned from his field about 6 p.m. Converging at his hut, the gang yelled, "Let's finally cleanse our village of the mahars," according to neighbors interviewed. Mr. Bhotmange escaped out the back. I thought that if I weren't in the house, they wouldn't touch the womenfolk," he says ruefully. From Khairlanji, he ran to Mr. Gajbhiye's home in the nearby village. Mr. Gajbhiye says he quickly phoned the police and asked them to rescue the family. The crowd around the Bhotmanges' hut swelled to some 60 villagers. Trying to scare them off, Mr. Bhotmange's wife, Surekha, went outside waving a torch and set an adjoining cattle shed on fire, according to trial testimony. This only further enraged the mob. One man pulled her by the hair and smashed her head against a drain wall, according to the prosecutors' charge sheet. Then the crowd closed in, pounding her with bamboo sticks, bicycle chains and axes. First there were shouts of, 'Save us! Save us! and then just, 'Kill them! Kill them! says Gayabai Khandate, a woman whose hut is a few dozen meters away. The Bhotmange children were dragged out next. I didn't do anything to you -- do not beat me," 21-year-old Sudhir pleaded before he was bludgeoned at the cowdung pit, according to witness testimony. After killing him, the mob turned to his brother Roshan, 19, cracking his skull. The 17-year-old daughter, Priyanka, who tried to hide in the burning cattle shed, was the last to be discovered. After the first few blows of bicycle chains, she lay quivering on the ground. Mamma, they killed me," she kept calling out, according to witnesses' testimony. Mamma, I am dead. Suresh Khandate, in front of whose hut some of the killings occurred, says the frenzied villagers shouted that they had to find and kill Mr. Bhotmange, too. When they noticed that Mr. Khandate -- who, as a member of an aboriginal tribe, falls outside the caste system -- was watching, he says one told him: "Go indoors and keep your mouth shut or you will be next. As darkness fell and a downpour began, the mob piled the four bodies in a bullock cart and took them to an irrigation canal. The next morning, according to trial testimony, one villager asked a tea-stall vendor for free tea. He explained that he had accidentally destroyed some of his money when he burned a shirt stained with the Bhotmanges' blood. Mr. Bhotmange returned before dawn to search for his family. Finding only a ransacked hut, he went to the police station. In late morning, while he was waiting, the police received a phone call: The body of a young woman, naked and with the name Priyanka tattooed on her arm, had been spotted floating in a canal. The three other bodies, partly nude, were retrieved from the canal the next day. Even though Priyanka was found naked, a doctor who performed a post-mortem exam didn't check for signs of rape. Local politicians played down the slaughter as a common crime. It had nothing do with caste. It was just a small village conflict about a road. There is no problem between Dalits and others here," says Mr. Kukde, the legislator. But as the news filtered out, often exaggerated with even more gruesome detail, Dalit neighborhoods exploded throughout the state of Maharashtra. The big industrial city of Nagpur was brought almost to a standstill as Dalit protesters set vehicles and storefronts on fire, and at least three people were killed in the area. Days later, Dalit mobs stopped a train between Mumbai and the city of Pune, forcing passengers out and torching the cars. As Dalit activists from all over India arrived in Khairlanji, they accused the state government of complicity, citing the lack of police response to the Bhotmanges' complaints and the flawed post-mortem. Maharashtra Home Minister R.R. Patil rejects the accusation. He says that, while at least five law-enforcement officials in the Khairlanji area have been suspended for alleged misconduct related to the case, there is no reason to believe their actions were caused by caste prejudice. Some of these officials, he says, are of Dalit origin themselves. The riots died down only after the Central Bureau of Investigation took over the case. Its agents had a hard time collecting evidence as a pall of silence descended over the village. The CBI filed charges against only 11 of the 47 villagers arrested by local and state police. Ranging in age from 21 to 56, most had lived all their lives in Khairlanji, seeing the Bhotmanges every day. The other suspects, including Mr. Dhande, since elected village chief, have denied wrongdoing and are back in Khairlanji. The trial has been going on for six months in a dingy, cream-colored room in the district capital of Bhandara, an hour's drive away. On a recent morning, a session in an empty courtroom was quickly adjourned at the written request of witnesses who said they needed to work their fields. Lawyers for the 11 defendants say the investigators have charged the wrong men. That's a view partially shared by some Dalit leaders, who contend the main conspirators have escaped because of their political connections. A verdict is expected in around three months. Mr. Bhotmange has been given a government job as a watchman at Bhandara's Backward Boys Home. He spends his days by a broken window, guarded by a plainclothes policeman who also rides on the back of Mr. Bhotmange's bicycle when he pedals home. Not a single villager from Khairlanji, Mr. Bhotmange says, has come to see him to express regret about the killings. I think they're happy. They got what they wanted," he says. Back in the village, dozens of policemen camp in tents around the Bhotmanges' hut, looking out for the property and for the few villagers who testified for the prosecution. Still visible at the hut's door post are pencil marks that traced the changing heights of Mr. Bhotmange's children. Tattered pictures of their favorite Bollywood stars, Sanjay Dutt and Aishwarya Rai, are still on the wood. Otherwise, life in Khairlanji has returned to normal. The village is very peaceful these days," says Krushna Titirmare, whose bullock cart was used -- without his knowledge, he says -- to dispose of the bodies. There are no quarrels anymore. Write to Yaroslav Trofimov at yaroslav.trofimov at wsj.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071229/47d62d2c/attachment-0001.html From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 11:12:22 2007 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 05:42:22 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <891626.30075.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <891626.30075.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My dear Chanchal, I stopped reading your email mid-way because all that it contains are rant and ranting. I am going reiterate a few points and close our conversation here because you are the one who does not seem to want to listen and you have clearly defined your position rather than reflecting on the exchanges that we have had. On the contrary you are ordering me all across your email to 'listen' which I read as intense anger and hatred and a non-listening position on your part: 1). Religion is not books. If you are going to quote constantly from Quran and Bible and Vedas and Geeta and what not, you are frozen in some imagined past and time. 2). "Hindu" and "Muslim" and "Christian" and "Jew" and whatever else are not religious categories, but social and cultural constructs. In my postings on the city in the past, I have tried to raise attention to this point that "Muslim" is a material practice located in the social, political and cultural context. Therefore, a "Ratnagiri Muslim" might be more similar to a "Ratnagiri Hindu" than being anywhere found in the Quran or the imagined understanding of "Islam". You can go on quoting surah on surah from the Quran and it will not make a difference to my skin because 'religion' is not the primary identity that I wear on myself. I am more than being 'Muslim'. Courage does not lie in accepting what you call 'hard facts'. It lies in self-reflexivity. Maybe some dosage of hard liquor is good to accept your 'hard' facts, which actually will go down well with the meat. Cheers and all the best, Zainab P.S. On your Hindu-Muslim, bhai and mai formulation, I have to tell my 'Hindu' 'Bengali' brother-in-law that we cannot be 'bhai-behen' and also tell my 'Hindu' 'Brahmin' 'Telugu' boyfriend that we cannot have any relationship. Will get back to you personally on that once I have heard from both of them. On Dec 30, 2007 9:34 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > Listen, what happens in riot is a different story. More than 1000 Muslims > enclosing the train with weapons and burning more than 60 Hindus alive > including children and women, is what caused Gujarat Riot. So, riot is a > reaction and I agree even during Riot abuse of women is not acceptable by > any means - if that has happened by a Hindu he is not a Hindu. > Unlike this, we find Muslims simply taking actions against Hindu for > following reasons > - Hindu worshipping Idols > - Hindu worshipping Cows > - Hindu philosophy of God as manifestation > - Quran teaches to destroy Hindus (Idol worshippers) and destroy with > all harshness that is possible... > > Now think again, before asking me for proof. Because next I will start > quoting the Surah directly from the most authenticated Quran. > > In Hinduism eating meat is categorized as Tamasika activity.. Hinduism is > not a religion, as it don't talk about religion at all... It talks about man > kind.. and hence non of the Hindu book contains name of any religion (not > even Hindu).... So, Muslims way of life is simply Tamasika according to Life > Science... > > As far as heat is concerned, let me tell you - all the saints of Hindus > (those who are not cheaters) live in Himalays at temperatures less than -10 > deg C, with the strength of Yoga... They eat raw vegetarian food (un cooked) > and they emerge out with tremendous knowledge to share with the people of > any nation... Have courage to listen to them.. they do not talk religion > (Unlike Mullahs whom I have often listed in Peace TV)... Hindu saints talk > about social health, moral strength, personality development, healthy > living, and true concept of God in depth.... > > There is a basic difference in what you say and what you do... > If we pet cow, we worship them for their usefulness... > If you pet goat, your children even participate in ruthlessly killing it > on Bakrid... > > If we carve Stones, we create God out of it (beauty our of dullness).. > If you carve Stones, you create Shaitan out of it (pelting of stones at > mecca)... > > Now since so many years, Hindu temples are demolished in all Islamic > regions inlcuding Kashmir (all Muslim countries).. Now don't ask > authenticity of it.. the world knows it and many news channel have > highlighted this including News channel of Pak.. > Barring Babri (where from 50 years Namaj was not being read), how many > cases do you know of Hindu demolishing Mosques, when the reality is that > most of the Mosques are build on Temples and in some Mosques it is even > written that it is built on temple... If you require data, I will give you > with pride.. > > Listen... 1000 years of love extended by Hindus have failed to convert > Muslims... and there is no doubt about this that Muslims simply are heading > towards majority where they can treat Hindus as they are doing in their > country.. > Muslims do not consider India as their nation - they never come out to say > Jai Hind, Vande Matram.. > > And Muslims cannot be a brother of Hindus.. > > Bachpan se suna hai, Hindu Muslims bhai bhai > Arey mere bhai, jab tune mere Mai ko kat ke khai to kaisa bhai... > > Muslims have already gained the reputation of terrorist throughout the > world... They have yet to prove peace and love.. > And I know, they will never.. because Quran teaches to kill and kill with > brutality.. > There is no tolerance in that religion... > > This is a hard fact... words cannot protect this... > > Anyway, again this is not hatred... Pick up History and explore the > reasons with Muslim majority... and you will yourself know the truth... > > Rapes and murders in Hinduism is Crime and law directly deals with it... > Unlike Muslim where a father in law rapes her daughter in law (Imrana case > for example) and Muslim law make the girl wife of father in law... no > punishment.. just award the women... > What riot took place in Kashmir that around 1 lakh Hindu women are being > used in Harem... > Shall I quote from Quran what a Muslim is taught about Jannat (beautiful > women for never ending sexual pleasure) and Killing Hindus would what > provide them Jannat... > > Listen, have courage to accept truth.. have courage to say what is there > in your Quran.. Have courage to accept that it is Quran that is creating > Terrorists and it the same Quran that terrorists are being supported by > common Muslim population (simply proven because no Muslim ever comes out to > protest against Terrorism)... Have courage to say at least what is there > in Quran, after all it is what you read and worship... Do not hide away > from reality of Quran... If you wish I can start quoting your Quran... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal malviya > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 7:47:28 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > My dear Chanchal, I think we ought to, and I am saying ought to because it > is very irritating to read statements that are not supported by facts and > figures, but emerge out of what we 'believe' is the truth out there. I am > sure that when you want to defend 'Hinduism' by pitting it against 'Islam', > then you must be slightly scientific (if that is a term I may use) in making > your defense. So let's get down to assess the statements that you make on > 'women' in 'Hinduism' versus 'women' in 'Islam'. > > > > You have said: > > > > > > > > "2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't > > try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... > > Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and > > misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you > > think these are the work of terrorist alone... " - please give exact > > sources which substantiate the statement that you have made. I also need to > > research the figures (and if someone on the list can help me), but there are > > 'Muslim' women who are being and have been raped in 'Kashmir' by 'Indian' > > 'soldiers' and there have been women in Punjab who have been raped by > > 'soldiers', 'policemen' during the strife in Punjab and even now under a > > wonked version of patriarchy and a belief that women are sexual creatures to > > be devoured. There have also been 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' women raped in > > various riots across the country, by variously 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' men and > > 'women'. > > > > "3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house > > worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship > > also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create > > Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... > > God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy > > Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... > > God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain > > peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill > > them... " - please substantiate your statements here too. In Islam, > > Prophet Mohammed had only one daughter named Fatima. He chose her as heir > > because he wanted to show to the Arab world at that time that women can also > > be inheritors. Islam has not said don't respect women, treat them shoddily > > from what I know through my limited knowledge of Islam. But 'Islam' is not > > just the Quran and if you think so, then you are under delusion. This is > > true for 'Hinduism' which is not all the 'books'. Every 'religion' in > > material practice takes on different versions and meanings and also adapts > > to culture. So for example, my father and grandfather as much worship Laxmi, > > do chopra poojan at the time of the Diwali new year because they are traders > > and businessmen and yet, they happen to be what you will call them > > 'Muslims'. My father's storehouse during the riots was saved from burning > > because the mob saw pictures of Durga, Laxmi and Saraswati in there and > > thought the store house belonged to a 'Hindu'. If you fail to recognize that > > 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' are not homogenous categories, then you will also rant > > this way and 'believe' things to be a certain a way. (his office was burnt > > down though) Again I am saying, at the cost of being preachy if you may, > > that the hatreds in the world outside come from our own insides. Time we did > > a bit of soul searching and walking around for some 'fact' finding. > > > > "God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and > ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought > driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will > they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a > humanity..." - I think time to do some fact finding about cow and cow > slaughter too rather than be slavish to propaganda. I guess the poor in > North India, whether "Hindu" or "Muslim", would out of compulsions of > weather and poverty eat beef because mutton is too expensive and the weather > demands eating fat to keep the body warm in the extreme cold. > > > > > I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... - then blind > > ignorance? prejudice which is not the same as hatred? toxic times of india? > > > > In sisterhood, > > Zainab > > > > > > > Best regards, > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; > > bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > oishik, > > i have every right to express my views and i always express them in > > decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is > > correct and it is in the interest of the nation. > > > > when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this > > language, this shows your level. > > vedavati > > > > > > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: > > oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; > > vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink > > On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take > > that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... > > trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep > > doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be > > that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: > > Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind > > of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to > > confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be > > excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 > > AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks > > for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> > > brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> > > I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks > > I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also > > ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his > > sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak > > with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee > > pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall > > also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they > > have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by > > the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose > > kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against > > each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their > > sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking > > me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember > > anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For > > you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of > > Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of > > the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be > > situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place > > while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' > > and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time > > to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours > > who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' > > because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me > > and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not > > going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or > > Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> > > imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the > > people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if > > 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with > > mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? > > And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly > > disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that > > Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. > > You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused > > the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with > > a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father > > could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared > > about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no > > position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar > > is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked > > Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has > > detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you > > can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, > > muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their > > responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > > > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims > > were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was > > is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did > > you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > > > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why > > do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an > > invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride > > for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated > > child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular > > schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to > > govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then > > complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... > > hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim > > women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own > > personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are > > many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims > > and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination > > just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which > > separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you > > have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those > > hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> > > muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake > > of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will > > dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try > > to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you > > want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu > > sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com> > To: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear > > Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks > > about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > > > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > > > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > > > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the > > judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed > > violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that > > doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful > > and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, > > they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On > > Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > > > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular > > country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise > > 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to > > stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their > > daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting > > 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule > > after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few > > thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> > > >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> > > like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > > > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary > > background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left > > parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam > > khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their > > muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might > > hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he > > talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > > stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt > > muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & > > likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking > > temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they > > create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have > > talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > > > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> > > granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > > > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> > > >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who > > are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, > > when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > > > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their > > nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything > > related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by > > Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout > > like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about > > Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims > > will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic > > followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world > > realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. > > Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you > > think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if > > there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and > > voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... > > Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in > > the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is > > what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have > > intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to > > indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them > > brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... > > the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their > > brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the > > secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that > > 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken > > place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what > > is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus > > believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa < > > bawazainab79 at gmail.com >> > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>> > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still > > a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as > > for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the > > country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are > > not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize > > for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, > > apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > > > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:> >> > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> > > ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > > > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or > > pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > > > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. > > Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before > > putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- > > Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > > > To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com >> > > Sent: > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a > > victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a > > victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you > > gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu > > vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: > > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > > > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your > > homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN > > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< > > http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! > > Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject > > header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK > > SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 > > Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > 416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an > > open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To > > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > > in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-5 Size: 49561 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071230/d384fcf4/attachment-0001.bin From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 22:54:08 2007 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 17:24:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Reversal of Fortune/India's Brahmins Message-ID: The Wall Street Journal December 29, 2007; Page A4 Reversal of Fortune Isolates India's Brahmins By ERIC BELLMAN E-mail: eric.bellman at awsj.com (Tariq Engineer contributed to this article.) CHENNAI, India -- Brahmins, as Hinduism's priestly and scholarly caste, have traditionally occupied a place of privilege in India. Brahmins have been advisers to Maharajas, Mughals and military rulers. Under British rule, they served as administrators, a position they kept after Indian independence in 1947. But in today's India, high-caste privileges are dwindling, and with the government giving extensive preferences to the lower-caste majority, many Brahmins are feeling left out of the economy's rapid expansion. R. Parameswaran has suffered that reversal of fortune. The 29-year-old starts every day with a prayer to the Hindu god Shiva, marking his forehead with red and white powder to let the world know he is a Brahmin. In his home village, his caste's mark brought him respect, but since he moved to Chennai, a sprawling high-tech city in the southern state of Tamil Nadu, in the late 1990s, he has found his status a liability. In Tamil Nadu, nearly 70% of government jobs and public-college slots are reserved for people from lower castes and other historically disadvantaged groups. Although he says he graduated near the top of his high-school class and had strong test scores, Mr. Parameswaran couldn't get into any of the state engineering colleges. His family had to borrow from friends to send him to a second-rate private college. He now teaches English at a small vocational school. On a salary of $100 a month, Mr. Parameswaran can't afford an apartment, so he sleeps in the classroom at night. "I am suffering," says the intense young man, using the exaggerated enunciation of an English teacher. "Unfortunately, I was born as a Brahmin." Although the role of Brahmins has never been synonymous with accumulating wealth, many are affluent enough to educate their children in the better private schools. On average, members of the caste, who make up about 5% of India's population of 1.1 billion, are better educated and better paid than the rest of Indian people. The term Brahmin has come to be used globally to describe those at the top of the heap with an attitude to match, as in Boston Brahmins. Yet close to half of Brahmin households earn less than $100 a month, according to the Center for a Study of Developing Societies, a New Delhi think tank. For these Brahmins, the array of state-mandated preferences for other groups present a high hurdle. The reverse discrimination is rooted in Indian history and politics. For decades, Brahmins were resented for their dominance of the government, economy and culture. Indeed, political parties in Tamil Nadu sprang from anti-Brahmin feelings. "If you see a Brahmin and a snake, kill the Brahmin first" was an old slogan. A national constitution adopted in 1950 reserved more than 20% of government jobs for lower castes. In 1990, an additional 27% were set aside for what were called "other backward castes." Some states set higher quotas, including Tamil Nadu, which reserves 69% of government jobs for lower castes and other needy groups. The ugliest Brahmin bashing in India ended years ago, but Mr. Parameswaran says that in college in the late 1990s, he still faced ridicule as a Brahmin. He says one student tried to break his sacred thread, a simple circle of twine Brahmins wear under their clothes. After college, he had an internship in a state-owned chemical company, but says he was told he wouldn't be hired, as there were openings only for lower-caste applicants. He says he took exams to join national railways, state banks and other government agencies, such as the immigration department, but found most posts closed to all Brahmins except the most brilliant. >From his makeshift home where he sleeps with a blanket on a desk most nights, Mr. Parameswaran still applies for government jobs. He pulls out his latest application form and shows a visitor where he always gets stuck: the three squares where he has to write the abbreviation indicating his caste. "I want government work," he says, shaking the application, "but they have no jobs for Brahmins." Mr. Parameswaran has tried to adapt to the lessening of caste distinctions taking place in many parts of India today, especially in cities. The changes are less in villages such as the one where he grew up some 200 miles away. There, his grandfather, who is 101 years old, still won't wear Western clothes and won't eat outside of his home for fear of mixing with lower castes. Mr. Parameswaran's father has a job with the state telephone company and is more liberal. He dresses in shirts and pants, doesn't mind eating at restaurants and doesn't expect lower-caste neighbors to take off their sandals in his presence. Mr. Parameswaran has had good friends from lower castes all his life, many of whom have used their communities to grab good government jobs, he says. He won't eat meat but has no qualms sharing a meal with people of any caste or creed. His 22-year-old sister, R. Dharmambal, is even more liberal, he says. "She will take non-vegetarian food," he exclaims, using the common Indian term for eating meat. Mr. Parameswaran often visits the sister in the Brahmin enclave of Mylapore. On a recent day there, dozens of shirtless priests in the traditional Brahmin uniform of a white dhoti and partially shaved head were standing around at a Hindu-scriptures school, hoping for work. For as little as 100 rupees, about $2.50, they offered to perform complicated rituals and blessings required when any Hindu has a baby, a wedding or a new home. "My sons can't support me, so I have to survive by performing Hindu rituals," says K. Narayana, an 81-year-old scholar. "If we had been from another community, we would have had better opportunities." Nearby stands the Kapaleeshwara Temple, with towering gates of colorful carvings from Hindu mythology. It is one of the most important places for worship for followers of Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction. The temple used to be surrounded by rows of simple single-story homes, each with its own courtyard and well so the Brahmin families wouldn't have to share water with other castes. Most houses have been replaced by concrete apartment blocks and small stores. At the temple's back gate, Brahmins beg for spare change or look for odd jobs as cooks or even bearers of bodies to funeral pyres, normally a lower-caste pursuit. " I see so many Brahmins begging" in Mylapore, Mr. Parameswaran says. "It's very difficult to see. It makes me totally upset." From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 11:14:28 2007 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 05:44:28 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <307283.65691.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> First of all, I am sorry if you are feeling that my speech was like an order with the usage of word 'Listen' I used it because I felt you have not read my article in totality or you are not answering what I had quoted... But let us not be misguided by what you are or what I am... Question and discussion here is not about one or two Muslims who have the gut to think beyond Quran.. My say that I would quote Quran was for those who live within Quranic boundary and owe some kind of terrorised mentality... Anyway, I agree to your point of Religion and extend it further to say that Religions are also Regional, both having boundaries and both correct or wrong in their own region. Hence imposition of Islam and Christianity in India was across the Region and here lies the reason for big fight... India has its own environmental conditions that gave birth to Sanatan Dharma (which nowhere talks about Religion at all unlike all other religions which talks only religion)... and that was correct and peaceful for people of this region... And that is what I am supporting and fighting for... and let me put my points what was the culture here, which need to be regained if India has to see peace again: 1. Vegetarianism was widely accepted dietary practice 2. Disciplined life (Getting up early, doing Yoga, in time eating habits, etc) was a practice of Ashram arrangement 3. Purity of food cultivation through natural fertilizers 4. Respect towards every elder, care for parents in their old age 5. commitment towards married partners with love and highest regard towards each other 6. Tinkle of Temple and Sweetness of Bhajans in Morning and Evening, keeping people highly peaceful 7. High philosophical and intellectual thinking 8. Business organization under Varna Arrangement are few to name... This is what India was... and this is what India need to be again... This has nothing to do with Development of the Nation... Development and technology growth can go in parallel... But the life science of India has to be in Indian only... It should not be American or Arabic... This is against nature and creating disbalance here... I am a firm believer that Terrorist cannot exist in any country unless they are supported by common Muslims... And all blasts taking place is a cordial effort of common Muslim population... Now I don't mean again that 100% of them... I simply mean, a common Muslim attitude to support this... they many not be directly involved in this... they may be even ignorant on this... but when it comes to they contributing to this, they are one... No doubt, Muslim is the most hated religion of the world now.. No doubt, whether it is east or west, Terrorist are give of Islam alone... In all other religion, notorious people are termed Criminals and dealt with law... But we never find Muslim protesting Terrorism anywhere in the world... and this is the true picture of a common Muslim... This is not my hatred...this is my concern... Because Muslim live with a fact that Mohammad was the last Prophet, which means they are ready to meet the end.. they belive in Judgement Day... and they are heading towards that... with all rules asking them to kill those who are not with them... The very belief that Quran is the last words, reflects that they will not allow the world to grow further and they will eventually demand end of everything... May God save the world... May our common Muslim brothers come out of this hard boundary of game of death... May they show some courage to respect the feelings of Hindus that lie in Cows... May they come out to join hands with Hindus and say Jai Hind and Vande Matram... May they come out with Solgans saying 'Terrorist - leave India'... May God save the world... ----- Original Message ---- From: Zainab Bawa To: chanchal malviya ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 11:12:14 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election My dear Chanchal, I stopped reading your email mid-way because all that it contains are rant and ranting. I am going reiterate a few points and close our conversation here because you are the one who does not seem to want to listen and you have clearly defined your position rather than reflecting on the exchanges that we have had. On the contrary you are ordering me all across your email to 'listen' which I read as intense anger and hatred and a non-listening position on your part: 1). Religion is not books. If you are going to quote constantly from Quran and Bible and Vedas and Geeta and what not, you are frozen in some imagined past and time. 2). "Hindu" and "Muslim" and "Christian" and "Jew" and whatever else are not religious categories, but social and cultural constructs. In my postings on the city in the past, I have tried to raise attention to this point that "Muslim" is a material practice located in the social, political and cultural context. Therefore, a "Ratnagiri Muslim" might be more similar to a "Ratnagiri Hindu" than being anywhere found in the Quran or the imagined understanding of "Islam". You can go on quoting surah on surah from the Quran and it will not make a difference to my skin because 'religion' is not the primary identity that I wear on myself. I am more than being 'Muslim'. Courage does not lie in accepting what you call 'hard facts'. It lies in self-reflexivity. Maybe some dosage of hard liquor is good to accept your 'hard' facts, which actually will go down well with the meat. Cheers and all the best, Zainab P.S. On your Hindu-Muslim, bhai and mai formulation, I have to tell my 'Hindu' 'Bengali' brother-in-law that we cannot be 'bhai-behen' and also tell my 'Hindu' 'Brahmin' 'Telugu' boyfriend that we cannot have any relationship. Will get back to you personally on that once I have heard from both of them. On Dec 30, 2007 9:34 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: Listen, what happens in riot is a different story. More than 1000 Muslims enclosing the train with weapons and burning more than 60 Hindus alive including children and women, is what caused Gujarat Riot. So, riot is a reaction and I agree even during Riot abuse of women is not acceptable by any means - if that has happened by a Hindu he is not a Hindu. Unlike this, we find Muslims simply taking actions against Hindu for following reasons - Hindu worshipping Idols - Hindu worshipping Cows - Hindu philosophy of God as manifestation - Quran teaches to destroy Hindus (Idol worshippers) and destroy with all harshness that is possible... Now think again, before asking me for proof. Because next I will start quoting the Surah directly from the most authenticated Quran. In Hinduism eating meat is categorized as Tamasika activity.. Hinduism is not a religion, as it don't talk about religion at all... It talks about man kind.. and hence non of the Hindu book contains name of any religion (not even Hindu).... So, Muslims way of life is simply Tamasika according to Life Science... As far as heat is concerned, let me tell you - all the saints of Hindus (those who are not cheaters) live in Himalays at temperatures less than -10 deg C, with the strength of Yoga... They eat raw vegetarian food (un cooked) and they emerge out with tremendous knowledge to share with the people of any nation... Have courage to listen to them.. they do not talk religion (Unlike Mullahs whom I have often listed in Peace TV)... Hindu saints talk about social health, moral strength, personality development, healthy living, and true concept of God in depth.... There is a basic difference in what you say and what you do... If we pet cow, we worship them for their usefulness... If you pet goat, your children even participate in ruthlessly killing it on Bakrid... If we carve Stones, we create God out of it (beauty our of dullness).. If you carve Stones, you create Shaitan out of it (pelting of stones at mecca)... Now since so many years, Hindu temples are demolished in all Islamic regions inlcuding Kashmir (all Muslim countries).. Now don't ask authenticity of it.. the world knows it and many news channel have highlighted this including News channel of Pak.. Barring Babri (where from 50 years Namaj was not being read), how many cases do you know of Hindu demolishing Mosques, when the reality is that most of the Mosques are build on Temples and in some Mosques it is even written that it is built on temple... If you require data, I will give you with pride.. Listen... 1000 years of love extended by Hindus have failed to convert Muslims... and there is no doubt about this that Muslims simply are heading towards majority where they can treat Hindus as they are doing in their country.. Muslims do not consider India as their nation - they never come out to say Jai Hind, Vande Matram.. And Muslims cannot be a brother of Hindus.. Bachpan se suna hai, Hindu Muslims bhai bhai Arey mere bhai, jab tune mere Mai ko kat ke khai to kaisa bhai... Muslims have already gained the reputation of terrorist throughout the world... They have yet to prove peace and love.. And I know, they will never.. because Quran teaches to kill and kill with brutality.. There is no tolerance in that religion... This is a hard fact... words cannot protect this... Anyway, again this is not hatred... Pick up History and explore the reasons with Muslim majority... and you will yourself know the truth... Rapes and murders in Hinduism is Crime and law directly deals with it... Unlike Muslim where a father in law rapes her daughter in law (Imrana case for example) and Muslim law make the girl wife of father in law... no punishment.. just award the women... What riot took place in Kashmir that around 1 lakh Hindu women are being used in Harem... Shall I quote from Quran what a Muslim is taught about Jannat (beautiful women for never ending sexual pleasure) and Killing Hindus would what provide them Jannat... Listen, have courage to accept truth.. have courage to say what is there in your Quran.. Have courage to accept that it is Quran that is creating Terrorists and it the same Quran that terrorists are being supported by common Muslim population (simply proven because no Muslim ever comes out to protest against Terrorism)... Have courage to say at least what is there in Quran, after all it is what you read and worship... Do not hide away from reality of Quran... If you wish I can start quoting your Quran... ----- Original Message ---- From: Zainab Bawa To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal malviya < chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 7:47:28 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election My dear Chanchal, I think we ought to, and I am saying ought to because it is very irritating to read statements that are not supported by facts and figures, but emerge out of what we 'believe' is the truth out there. I am sure that when you want to defend 'Hinduism' by pitting it against 'Islam', then you must be slightly scientific (if that is a term I may use) in making your defense. So let's get down to assess the statements that you make on 'women' in 'Hinduism' versus 'women' in 'Islam'. You have said: "2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you think these are the work of terrorist alone... " - please give exact sources which substantiate the statement that you have made. I also need to research the figures (and if someone on the list can help me), but there are 'Muslim' women who are being and have been raped in 'Kashmir' by 'Indian' 'soldiers' and there have been women in Punjab who have been raped by 'soldiers', 'policemen' during the strife in Punjab and even now under a wonked version of patriarchy and a belief that women are sexual creatures to be devoured. There have also been 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' women raped in various riots across the country, by variously 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' men and 'women'. "3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill them... " - please substantiate your statements here too. In Islam, Prophet Mohammed had only one daughter named Fatima. He chose her as heir because he wanted to show to the Arab world at that time that women can also be inheritors. Islam has not said don't respect women, treat them shoddily from what I know through my limited knowledge of Islam. But 'Islam' is not just the Quran and if you think so, then you are under delusion. This is true for 'Hinduism' which is not all the 'books'. Every 'religion' in material practice takes on different versions and meanings and also adapts to culture. So for example, my father and grandfather as much worship Laxmi, do chopra poojan at the time of the Diwali new year because they are traders and businessmen and yet, they happen to be what you will call them 'Muslims'. My father's storehouse during the riots was saved from burning because the mob saw pictures of Durga, Laxmi and Saraswati in there and thought the store house belonged to a 'Hindu'. If you fail to recognize that 'Hindu' and 'Muslim' are not homogenous categories, then you will also rant this way and 'believe' things to be a certain a way. (his office was burnt down though) Again I am saying, at the cost of being preachy if you may, that the hatreds in the world outside come from our own insides. Time we did a bit of soul searching and walking around for some 'fact' finding. "God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a humanity..." - I think time to do some fact finding about cow and cow slaughter too rather than be slavish to propaganda. I guess the poor in North India, whether "Hindu" or "Muslim", would out of compulsions of weather and poverty eat beef because mutton is too expensive and the weather demands eating fat to keep the body warm in the extreme cold. I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... - then blind ignorance? prejudice which is not the same as hatred? toxic times of india? In sisterhood, Zainab Best regards, ----- Original Message ---- From: Vedavati Jogi To: pawan.durani at gmail.com; oishiksircar at gmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election oishik, i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation. when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level. vedavati Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani at gmail.comTo: oishiksircar at gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi at hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com> wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com > > CC: vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com >> > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com>> > > To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com >> > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071231/aaa4c561/attachment.html From sudeshna.kca at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 16:27:02 2007 From: sudeshna.kca at gmail.com (Sudeshna Chatterjee) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:57:02 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] CYE Journal just published: 18 new papers, 8 book reviews, 2 film reviews Message-ID: <3ef603b70712290317i1bb1d109kf905a0bbff50e04d@mail.gmail.com> The final issue of volume 17 of the CYE Journal is now available online: http://www.colorado.edu/journals/cye/. It includes 18 papers, eight book reviews and two film reviews. This past year, the CYE Journal published more than 100 papers. Readers tallied more than 250,000 independent sessions, logged into the CYE website. Downloads averaged more than 400 per day. Clearly, the CYE Journal is meeting a demand. Access is still free. Our appeal for contributions has met with some success (see http://www.colorado.edu/journals/cye/support/friendsandsupporters.htm). We thank those of you who sent us money. However, funding remains well short of hard costs. We need additional support to be able to continue to provide free access. If you have not yet gotten around to sending a (tax-deductible) contribution, we still need your help and welcome support at any level. REQUEST: If you are affiliated with an institution that has a library, PLEASE, COMPLETE THE FORM AT THE URL FOUND BELOW AND SEND IT TO YOUR LIBRARIAN! Librarians often decide based on recommendations. More institutional support will go a long way towards making it possible to continue to provide free access to those who cannot afford a subscription. http://www.colorado.edu/journals/cye/announcements/JournalRF.pdf Thank you and best wishes for the New Year! - The Editors Louise Chawla Fahriye Sancar Willem van Vliet- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __._,_.___ Messages in this topic ( 1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages| Links| Database| Polls| Calendar MARKETPLACE ------------------------------ Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree- College-Finder.net. [image: Yahoo! Groups] Change settings via the Web(Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest| Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Visit Your Group Y! Messenger Instant hello Chat over IM with group members. Real Food Group Share recipes and favorite meals w/ Real Food lovers. Yahoo! Groups Parenting Zone Share experiences with other parents. . __,_._,___ -- Sudeshna Chatterjee, PhD Partner, Kaimal Chatterjee & Associates New Delhi, India -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071231/784f23f5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 16:28:51 2007 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:58:51 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Voices from Waters 2008 Message-ID: Voices from the Waters 2008 3rd International Film Festival on Water CALL FOR ENTRIES Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam, Svaraj- Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Finger Lakes Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm in Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to Water are organizing the third International 'Voices from the Waters'- the biggest international film festival on water in August 2008 following on the footsteps of the hugely popular and successful events in 2005 and 2007. This consortium of committed organizations active in water issues are inviting you to be part of this festival by contributing short, documentary, animation and feature films (DVD format only) with English subtitles on water and related issues. Also include a photograph and CV of the film-maker, a minimum of three film stills and a short synopsis of the film. You are also most welcome to send us photographs for exhibition at the festival. The first edition of 'Voices from the Waters' was held in April 2005 in collaboration with Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, while the second was held in June 2007 in Bangalore, India by a consortium of organizations. With the overwhelming success and the positive responses to the festival from across the globe and the urgency of the water issue to a planet headed towards catastrophe, 'Voices from the Waters' is being organized as an annual event of images and sounds, of films, songs, photo and art exhibitions, lectures and conferences, a platform for diverse voices – free as water as nature intended it to be. If you have a film under the following categories: 1. Water Scarcity, 2. The Dams and the Displaced, 3. Water Harvest, 4. Water Struggles, 5. Floods and Droughts, 6. Global Warming and Climate Change, 7. Impact of Deforestation on Water Bodies and 8. Water and Life, you should consider sending it to us so that we may place them in the festival. All entries will be acknowledged. 'Voices from the Waters' is a public awareness program and while there is no entry fee for the festival, the final short-list for the festival will be decided from the entries by a committee comprised of eminent film- makers, film critics and social activists. This is also conceived as a traveling film festival. Deadline for entries is 30th April, 2008 . For more information, contact us at the address below. Thanking you, Yours sincerely, The organizing committee If there is magic on this planet it is contained in water - Loran Eisley Contact:- Georgekutty A.L. Secretary, Bangalore Film Society, 33/1-9, Thyagaraja Layout, Jai Bharath Nagar, MS Nagar P.O., Bangalore- 560 033. Karnataka, India Tel: 91- 80- 25493705 Email: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com , waterjourneys at rediffmail.com http://www.voicesfromthewaters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071231/97bd391e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 20:15:23 2007 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:45:23 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Ek theee Missis Bhuttto.. Message-ID: <47e122a70712310645h3baf97e7uebe4b09499194c49@mail.gmail.com> happy new year to all with love is -- please click to read and see some... http://indersalim.livejournal.com